Dr. Adam Grant: How to Unlock Your Potential, Motivation & Unique Abilities
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Adam Grant.
今天我的客人是亚当·格兰特博士。
Adam Grant is a professor of organizational psychology at the Wharton School at University of Pennsylvania.
亚当·格兰特是宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院组织心理学教授。
He has authored five best-selling books, and most recently, has authored a new book entitled "Hidden Potential." He received his bachelor's degree from Harvard University and his doctorate from the University of Michigan.
他撰写了五本畅销书，最近出版了一本题为《隐藏的潜力》的新书。他在哈佛大学获得学士学位，在密歇根大学获得博士学位。
Today, we discuss peer-reviewed studies and tools based on the data from those studies that can enable people to meet their goals and overcome significant challenges, including how to overcome procrastination, as well as how to see around or through blind spots, as well as how to overcome sticking points in motivation and creativity.
今天，我们根据这些研究的数据讨论经过同行评审的研究和工具，这些研究和工具可以帮助人们实现目标并克服重大挑战，包括如何克服拖延症，如何绕过或穿越盲点，以及如何克服动机和创造力中的症结点。
We also discuss the research on and practical tools related to the underpinnings of performance in any endeavor, including how to increase one's confidence and how to have a persistent growth mindset.
我们还讨论了与任何努力中的绩效基础相关的研究和实用工具，包括如何增强信心以及如何拥有持久的成长心态。
By the end of today's episode, it will be clear to you that Dr. Adam Grant has an absolutely spectacular depth and breadth of knowledge, and that knowledge is both practical, it is based on peer-reviewed research, and he conveys those tools with the utmost clarity and generosity.
在今天的节目结束时，您会清楚亚当·格兰特博士拥有绝对惊人的深度和广度的知识，而且这些知识既实用又基于同行评审的研究，并且他以最清晰和慷慨的方式传达了这些工具。
Indeed, by the end of today's episode, you will have more than a dozen new tools never discussed before on the Huberman Lab podcast that you can apply in your academic endeavors, in athletic endeavors, in creative endeavors.
事实上，在今天的节目结束时，您将拥有十多个以前从未在 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论过的新工具，您可以将它们应用到您的学术努力、运动努力和创造性努力中。
In fact, in any area of life.
事实上，在生活的任何领域。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Adam Grant.
现在我与亚当·格兰特博士进行了讨论。
Adam, welcome.
亚当，欢迎。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Excited to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very excited to have you here.
很高兴你能来到这里。
Your career, both public-facing and academic career, have covered an enormous range of topics.
您的职业生涯，无论是面向公众的职业生涯还是学术生涯，都涵盖了广泛的主题。
So we have a lot to cover.
所以我们有很多内容要讲。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Look who's talking.
看看谁在说话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And any time two professors sit down, or even one professor says, "We have a lot to cover," I think everyone listening braces themselves like, "Oh, no." But these-
每当两位教授坐下来，或者甚至一位教授说，“我们有很多东西要讲”时，我想每个听的人都会做好准备，“哦，不。”但这些——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
topics, I assure everyone, are of the utmost interest, and you cover them in such both fabulous detail and you make it very clear.
我向大家保证，这些话题都是大家最感兴趣的，你们以如此令人难以置信的细节涵盖了它们，而且说得非常清楚。
So I'm really looking forward to this.
所以我真的很期待这个。
I'd like to start off by talking about something that I'm obsessed by, and I know a lot of people are obsessed with and struggle with.
我想首先谈谈我所痴迷的一些事情，我知道很多人都沉迷于此并与之斗争。
And I know you also have a recent publication on this topic, which is procrastination.
我知道你最近还出版了一本关于这个主题的出版物，那就是拖延症。
I am a bit of a procrastinator, but a different way of stating that is that I love deadlines.
我是一个有点拖延的人，但换一种说法就是我喜欢截止日期。
I learned in college that I love, love, love deadlines because it seems to harness my focus and my attention.
我在大学里了解到，我非常非常喜欢截止日期，因为它似乎可以集中我的注意力。
I like just enough, I guess you call it anxiety or autonomic arousal for the neuroscience or physiology-oriented folks.
我喜欢就足够了，我猜你称之为神经科学或生理学导向的焦虑或自主唤醒。
For me, just brings about a total elimination of all of the distractors, and it seems to both slow and accelerate my perception of time, and it seems to bring out my best to have deadlines.
对我来说，这会彻底消除所有干扰因素，它似乎既减缓又加速了我对时间的感知，而且似乎让我在截止日期前发挥出最好的水平。
But I would prefer to not have to procrastinate in order to self-impose deadlines.
但我不想为了给自己设定最后期限而拖延。
I prefer that other people impose those deadlines, in fact.
事实上，我更喜欢其他人强加这些最后期限。
So what do we know about procrastination?
那么我们对拖延症了解多少呢？
Why do some people complete things well in advance?
为什么有些人会提前完成事情？
Why do other people procrastinate?
为什么其他人会拖延？
Is it that they're seeking deadlines, as I believe I am?
他们是否像我相信的那样，正在寻求最后期限？
And interestingly, and sort of alluding to this recent paper of yours, what is the relationship between procrastination and creativity?
有趣的是，有点暗指你最近的这篇论文，拖延症和创造力之间有什么关系？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I feel like we should just deal with all that later.
我觉得我们应该稍后再处理这一切。
Let's put it off.
让我们把它搁置吧。
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good one.
好一个。
By the way, there's extra credit for science puns on here, so nicely done.
顺便说一句，这里有额外的科学双关语，做得很好。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
One of the best articles on procrastination ever written was titled, "At Last, My Article on Procrastination."
有史以来关于拖延症的最好的文章之一的标题是“最后，我关于拖延症的文章”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah, it just made me smile.
是的，这让我微笑。
So I think the basic question, I think, to start with is why do we procrastinate?
所以我认为首先的基本问题是我们为什么拖延？
And I thought I was immune, actually, when I came into this topic.
事实上，当我谈到这个话题时，我以为我已经免疫了。
I was the person who annoyed my college roommates by finishing my thesis a couple months early.
我是那个因为提前几个月完成论文而惹恼了我的大学室友的人。
I found out there was a term for me.
我发现有一个术语适合我。
I'm a precrastinator.
我是一个提前计划者。
So the focus and the pressure that you get from a deadline, I get that the moment the project starts.
因此，我从项目开始的那一刻就感受到了截止日期带来的关注和压力。
And sometimes months or years in advance.
有时提前几个月或几年。
And so I was really proud of finishing everything early.
所以我很自豪能够提前完成所有事情。
And then I discovered there are things that I procrastinate on, too, which was a little bit disappointing.
然后我发现我也有拖延的事情，这有点令人失望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you willing to share what some of those were?
您愿意分享其中的一些内容吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I am.
我是。
So I procrastinate on anything that's administrative.
所以我会拖延任何行政事务。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm right there with you
我就在你身边
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
...
...
you want to get time on my calendar, it could take me weeks to respond.
如果您想在我的日历上腾出时间，我可能需要几周的时间才能回复。
You ask me a question about social science, I will be back to you in a minute.
你问我一个关于社会科学的问题，我马上就回复你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I procrastinate on grading.
我拖延评分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Takes me forever.
带走我直到永远。
I basically put off a whole bunch of tasks that I thought had nothing in common.
我基本上推迟了一大堆我认为没有共同点的任务。
It turns out that I procrastinate when I'm bored.
原来我无聊的时候就会拖延。
Boredom is, I guess it's probably my most hated emotion.
无聊，我想这可能是我最讨厌的情绪。
And so I will do anything to avoid a boring task.
所以我会尽一切努力来避免无聊的任务。
And I think this goes to why people procrastinate, which is a lot of people think it's laziness, or you're not disciplined enough, but actually, the research on this is really clear that you're not avoiding work when you procrastinate.
我认为这就是人们拖延的原因，很多人认为这是懒惰，或者你没有足够的纪律，但实际上，对此的研究非常清楚，当你拖延时，你并不是在逃避工作。
In fact, a lot of our procrastination is focused on doing things that involve a lot of energy.
事实上，我们的很多拖延症都集中在做需要大量精力的事情上。
You've seen people probably clean their entire houses when they're putting off a task.
你见过人们在推迟任务时可能会打扫整个房子。
So it's not that you're being lazy, it's that you're avoiding negative emotions that a task stirs up.
所以这并不是说你懒惰，而是你在逃避任务引发的负面情绪。
So for me, it's boredom.
所以对我来说，这就是无聊。
For a lot of people, it's fear or anxiety.
对于很多人来说，这是恐惧或焦虑。
"I don't know if I can pull this off.
“我不知道我是否能成功。
I have an extreme case of imposter syndrome in this role.
我在这个角色上有一个极端的冒名顶替综合症。
The challenge in front of me is too daunting." For some people, it's confusion.
我面前的挑战太艰巨了。”对于某些人来说，这是混乱的。
"I haven't figured it out yet, and so I can't work on this because I feel like I'm stuck." So what's, I guess, the big question for you then, Andrew, is what's the emotion that causes you to procrastinate?
“我还没有弄清楚，所以我无法做这件事，因为我觉得我被困住了。”那么，我想，安德鲁，对你来说最大的问题是什么，导致你拖延的情绪是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's hard for me to identify the stick here.
我很难辨认这里的棍子。
I think of it more as the carrot that comes with deadlines.
我更多地将其视为带有截止日期的胡萝卜。
And again, I don't consider myself a procrastinator per se.
再说一次，我不认为自己本身是一个拖延者。
I just really love deadlines, and procrastination is a terrific way to simulate the deadline.
我真的很喜欢最后期限，而拖延是模拟最后期限的好方法。
So for me-
所以对我来说——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Wait, so you delay starting or finishing a task in order to have a sense of time pressure.
等待，所以你推迟开始或完成一项任务，以便有时间压力感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
It builds a certain amount of internal arousal in me to know, okay, I've got 72 hours to complete something.
它让我内心产生一定程度的兴奋，让我知道，好吧，我有 72 小时的时间来完成某件事。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's now game time.
现在是比赛时间。
I like the game time before the game time.
我喜欢比赛时间之前的比赛时间。
Before a podcast, I'll put in anywhere from several days to weeks or even months in preparation.
在播客之前，我会花几天到几周甚至几个月的时间进行准备。
So it's really elastic depending on the topic.
所以它的弹性取决于主题。
But when it came to exams in school, or if it comes to writing deadlines, I consider the shipping of the product or the presentation of the live event that I happen to be doing as the second game or event.
但是，当涉及到学校考试或写作截止日期时，我会将产品的运输或我碰巧正在做的现场活动的演示视为第二个游戏或活动。
The first event is the pressure and the excitement of getting into the groove of doing focused work.
第一个事件是进入专注工作状态的压力和兴奋。
Because for me, that's such a drug.
因为对我来说，这就是一种药物。
It feels like having all the systems of my brain and body oriented towards one specific thing is just sheer bliss for me.
感觉就像让我的大脑和身体的所有系统都面向一件特定的事情对我来说纯粹是幸福。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
So it sounds like then you're actually not a chronic procrastinator.
所以听起来你实际上并不是一个慢性拖延者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
At all.
完全没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's never been the way I viewed myself, but now I'll take that.
我从来都不是这样看待自己的，但现在我会这么想。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It's a strategy for you.
这对你来说是一个策略。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
It is a strategy.
这是一种策略。
That's right.
这是正确的。
And I was fairly wayward youth, barely finished high school, et cetera.
我是个相当任性的年轻人，高中才读完，等等。
So by the time I got serious about school, which was my second year of university, when deadlines were presented, like there's a midterm exam on a given date, that was exciting to me.
因此，当我开始认真对待学校时，那是我大学的第二年，当截止日期出现时，就像在给定的日期有期中考试一样，这对我来说是令人兴奋的。
That was exciting.
那真是令人兴奋。
It was like, okay, that's the big thing.
就好像，好吧，这才是大事。
That's my opportunity to prove myself to myself, because I was really coming from behind.
这是我向自己证明自己的机会，因为我真的后来居上。
And then the opportunity to, or I should say the feeling of dropping into that groove, like this is the exciting part, is the preparation.
然后机会，或者我应该说陷入那种状态的感觉，就像这是令人兴奋的部分，就是准备。
Likewise, with podcasting, for our solo podcast, I love the research as much as I love presenting the material.
同样，对于播客，对于我们的个人播客，我喜欢研究，就像我喜欢呈现材料一样。
Maybe more.
也许更多。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Maybe more.
也许更多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe more.
也许更多。
Right.
正确的。
Likewise, for university lectures or for traveling and giving seminars as a traditional academic.
同样，作为传统学者的大学讲座或旅行和举办研讨会。
I'm sure you're familiar with that, right?
我相信你对此很熟悉，对吧？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Of course.
当然。
I mean-
我的意思是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The preparation is where you realize, it's almost like I think of it as somebody like a miner in a mine and just finding a gem.
准备工作就是你意识到的地方，这几乎就像我想象的那样，就像矿井里的矿工一样，只是在寻找宝石。
And of course, then there are all the thoughts of what you can do with that later, and you're going to show people.
当然，之后还有所有关于你可以用它做什么的想法，你将向人们展示。
It has a certain value to the world, et cetera.
它对世界等具有一定的价值。
But it's the searching and finding those gems that is like, even as I talk about it, I feel like my body's going to float out of the chair a little bit.
但正是在寻找和发现那些宝石的过程中，即使我在谈论它，我也感觉我的身体会有点从椅子上飘起来。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I have the same experience.
我也有同样的经历。
It's the sort of the unleashed curiosity, and then the rush of discovery, and by the time you're teaching it or explaining it, but I already know this.
这是一种被释放的好奇心，然后是发现的冲动，当你教授它或解释它时，但我已经知道了这一点。
I'm not learning anything anymore.
我不再学习任何东西了。
And yes, I'm excited to share it, and I hope it's helpful to other people.
是的，我很高兴分享它，我希望它对其他人有帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
So I think as you talk about what your process looks like, I don't even think what you do qualifies as procrastination, technically.
所以我认为，当你谈论你的流程是什么样子时，我什至不认为你所做的事情从技术上来说属于拖延。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is getting better and better.
这一点正在变得越来越好。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I mean, seriously, if you think about how procrastination is defined, it's delaying despite an expected cost.
我的意思是，说真的，如果你考虑一下拖延的定义，就会发现尽管有预期的成本，但它还是在拖延。
And you don't think there's a cost.
而且你不认为这是有成本的。
You actually see a benefit.
你实际上看到了一个好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
And I've tried starting things-
我尝试过开始做事-
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
That's not procrastination.
这不是拖延症。
That's just delay.
那只是延迟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I've tried starting things earlier, and I should say that my process often begins much earlier than the physical process.
我尝试过更早开始做事，我应该说我的过程通常比物理过程开始得早得多。
Like I said, if I was being observed in an experiment, it'd be okay, Andrew's finally sitting down to write this book chapter, or finally sitting down to research some papers for an episode.
就像我说的，如果我在实验中被观察，那也没关系，安德鲁终于坐下来写这本书的章节，或者终于坐下来研究一些关于一集的论文。
But I'm thinking about it all the time.
但我一直在想这件事。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Much to the dismay of people in my life.
让我生活中的人们非常沮丧。
I'm constantly thinking about these things.
我一直在思考这些事情。
Walking to take out the recycle, I'll have ideas, and then I'll write them down.
边走边倒回收品，我会有想法，然后我会把它们写下来。
I constantly am writing things down, voice memos into my phone.
我不断地把事情写下来，用手机语音备忘录。
I have a method of capture where I basically try and just grab everything and then filter out what's useful.
我有一种捕获方法，我基本上尝试捕获所有内容，然后过滤掉有用的内容。
Do you have a process like that for gleaning ideas?
你们有类似的收集想法的流程吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
A little bit.
一点点。
I do now.
我现在就这么做了。
So when Jihae Shin and I started this research on procrastination, she had come to me.
所以当我和申智海开始这项关于拖延症的研究时，她来找我。
She was a very creative doctoral student, and she said, "I have my best ideas when I'm procrastinating."
她是一位非常有创造力的博士生，她说：“当我拖延时，我会想到最好的想法。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And it was one of those moments where I didn't believe her, but I thought it was an interesting enough idea that it was worth exploring, and I said, "Show me.
那是我不相信她的时刻之一，但我认为这是一个足够有趣的想法，值得探索，我说，“告诉我。
Let's get some data.
让我们获取一些数据。
Let's see if we can test this." And she ended up gathering data in a Korean company where she surveyed people on how often they procrastinate, and then got their supervisors to rate their creativity.
让我们看看是否可以对此进行测试。”她最终在一家韩国公司收集了数据，调查人们拖延的频率，然后让他们的主管对他们的创造力进行评分。
And sure enough, found that people who procrastinate sometimes were rated as more creative than people who rarely do, like me, the precrastinators.
果然，我发现有时拖延的人比那些很少拖延的人（比如我这样的拖延者）更有创造力。
And I remember asking her, "What about the chronic procrastinators?" And she's like, "I don't know.
我记得我问她：“那些长期拖延的人怎么办？”她说：“我不知道。
They never filled out my survey."
他们从未填写过我的调查。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
As I recall from that paper, there's the inverted U shape function with procrastination on the vertical axis and creativity on the horizontal axis.
我记得在那篇论文中，有一个倒U形函数，纵轴是拖延，横轴是创造力。
Is that-
难道是——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Flipped.
翻转了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Flipped.
翻转了。
Sorry.
对不起。
Okay.
好的。
So explain to me then the relationship between procrastination and creativity.
那么请向我解释一下拖延症和创造力之间的关系。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So basically, the peak of creativity is in the middle of procrastination.
所以基本上，创造力的顶峰是在拖延的中间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah, okay.
啊，好吧。
Got it.
知道了。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And yeah, there's an upside-down U curve there.
是的，那里有一条倒U形曲线。
And so then I thought this was fascinating.
然后我觉得这很有趣。
So then we go into the lab to say, "Can we replicate this?
然后我们走进实验室说：“我们可以复制这个吗？
Can we control it in an experiment?" And the hardest part of that was how do you randomly assign people to procrastinate?
我们可以通过实验来控制它吗？”其中最困难的部分是如何随机分配人们进行拖延？
To my knowledge, never been done before.
据我所知，以前从未这样做过。
And we eventually figured out that we could give people a bunch of tasks to do and then tempt them with highly entertaining YouTube videos that were sort of placed on their screen.
我们最终发现，我们可以给人们布置一堆任务，然后用放置在他们屏幕上的高度有趣的 YouTube 视频来诱惑他们。
And we put different numbers of YouTube videos there so that if there's only one, you're not tempted to procrastinate much.
我们在那里放置了不同数量的 YouTube 视频，这样即使只有一个视频，您也不会太拖延。
If there are four, you're probably going to get sucked into a little bit of a YouTube spiral.
如果有四个，您可能会陷入 YouTube 螺旋式的漩涡中。
If there are eight, you might be putting off the task that's much less exciting than watching Jimmy Kimmel's meme tweets, for example.
例如，如果有八个，您可能会推迟执行比观看吉米·金梅尔 (Jimmy Kimmel) 的模因推文更不令人兴奋的任务。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this was done in a fairly naturalistic environment?
这是在相当自然的环境中完成的吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
People are on a computer.
人们都在电脑上。
They're asked to solve some creative problems that look pretty similar to what you might do in your job, and then we're going to score your creativity later.
他们被要求解决一些与你在工作中可能会做的事情非常相似的创造性问题，然后我们稍后会对你的创造力进行评分。
And it turned out that the people who were tempted to procrastinate moderately ended up generating the most creative ideas.
事实证明，那些受诱惑适度拖延的人最终产生了最具创意的想法。
So why is that?
那么这是为什么呢？
There are a couple of things that happen, and you have to look at both sides of the curve.
会发生一些事情，你必须同时关注曲线的两侧。
So what's wrong with the precrastinators, and also what happens to the extreme procrastinators?
那么，提前拖延者出了什么问题，极端拖延者又会发生什么情况呢？
And in both cases, what happens is you end up with a little bit of tunnel vision.
在这两种情况下，最终都会出现一些狭隘的视野。
So when I dive right into a task, I'm stuck with my first ideas, and I don't wait long enough to incubate and get my best ideas.
因此，当我直接投入一项任务时，我会被自己的第一个想法困住，而我不会等待足够长的时间来孵化并获得最好的想法。
I'm less likely to reframe the problem.
我不太可能重新思考这个问题。
I'm less likely to access remote knowledge because I'm just diving right in.
我不太可能访问远程知识，因为我只是一头扎进去。
And meanwhile, the chronic procrastinators end up in the same boat because they don't get started until the last minute, and so they have to rush ahead with the easiest idea to implement, as opposed to really developing the most novel idea.
与此同时，长期拖延者最终也会陷入同样的困境，因为他们直到最后一刻才开始，因此他们必须急于实现最容易实现的想法，而不是真正开发出最新颖的想法。
And meanwhile, the people in the middle who are starting to feel that pressure of like, "Wow, I kind of spun my wheels for 10 minutes watching a bunch of YouTube videos.
与此同时，中间的人开始感受到这种压力，“哇，我花了 10 分钟看了一堆 YouTube 视频。
I'm running out of time for this task." They still have enough time to work on the ideas that were active in the back of their minds, and that gives them a shot at more novel ideas.
我已经没有时间完成这项任务了。”他们仍然有足够的时间来研究脑海中活跃的想法，这让他们有机会尝试更多新颖的想法。
So to answer your question, I've tried to adopt this as my process now, to say I will still dive into a project ahead of schedule, but I will not commit to an idea until I've let it incubate for a few weeks and I'm working on other things.
因此，为了回答你的问题，我现在尝试将其作为我的流程，也就是说我仍然会提前投入一个项目，但我不会承诺一个想法，直到我让它孵化几周并且我正在处理其他事情。
Whereas an earlier version of me, like when I'd sit down to write a book, as soon as I had the book idea, I would start writing on day one.
而早期版本的我，就像我坐下来写一本书一样，一旦我有了写书的想法，我就会在第一天开始写作。
Now I have the idea, I file it away, and I give myself at least a month before I begin drafting.
现在我有了想法，我把它归档，在开始起草之前我给自己至少一个月的时间。
And I think it feels less productive, but it's far more creative.
我认为这感觉效率较低，但更具创意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are your thoughts about some of what you described being an unconscious way of seeding the mind and the unconscious with an idea?
您对您所描述的在思想和无意识中播种想法的无意识方式有什么看法？
So for instance, let's take a school academic scenario where students get an assignment, and the assignment is contained within a folder, and it just says "Assignment." Okay, and it's due on a particular date, and it says due on that particular date.
举例来说，让我们以一个学校学术场景为例，学生收到一份作业，作业包含在一个文件夹中，并且只显示“作业”。好的，它的到期日是某个特定的日期，它说是在那个特定的日期到期。
And they're given the folder, but they have no sense of what the assignment is.
他们得到了文件夹，但他们不知道任务是什么。
You can imagine one category of procrastinator that will take that thing and put it down and avoid looking at it entirely, versus another category of procrastinator that will flip it open and take a look at, "Okay, this is going to be an essay on," I don't know, something about economic theory in the late 1700s, close it, and then procrastinate.
你可以想象一类拖延者会拿起那件事，把它放下，完全避免看它，而另一类拖延者会翻开它，看一眼，“好吧，这将是一篇关于我不知道的文章，”1700年代后期的经济理论，然后合上它，然后拖延。
There is an idea, which frankly I subscribe to a little bit, because we recently did this series on mental health, not mental illness, but mental health with Dr. Paul Conti, where he talked extensively about the unconscious and how the unconscious mind is always working with ideas, things that we are concerned about, performance, these sorts of things, even if we're not aware of them.
有一个想法，坦率地说，我有点同意，因为我们最近与保罗·孔蒂博士一起做了关于心理健康的系列，不是精神疾病，而是心理健康，他广泛谈论了无意识，以及无意识思维如何总是与想法、我们关心的事情、表现等事情一起工作，即使我们没有意识到它们。
What are your thoughts about the creativity that's seeded by slight procrastination being related to actually knowing what you're procrastinating on specifically?
你认为轻微的拖延所带来的创造力与真正了解自己具体拖延的事情有关吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I think it turns out to be, I don't want to say essential, but critical.
我认为事实证明，我不想说这是必要的，但很关键。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
So one of the things we found is in order for moderate procrastination to fuel creativity, you have to be intrinsically motivated by the thing you're procrastinating on.
因此，我们发现的一件事是，为了让适度的拖延激发创造力，你必须对你正在拖延的事情产生内在的激励。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And so what happens is if you're bored, for example, by the topic, you're not going to open the folder.
因此，如果您感到无聊（例如对某个主题感到无聊），您就不会打开该文件夹。
You're not going to start thinking about it at all.
你根本不会开始考虑它。
It's not going to begin.
它不会开始。
You're not going to do any subconscious processing.
你不会进行任何潜意识处理。
You're not going to have any unexpected connections between this topic and something else you've learned about or been curious about.
在这个主题和你已经了解或好奇的其他内容之间不会有任何意想不到的联系。
If you're interested in the problem, then when you put it off, you're much more likely to still keep it active in the back of your mind.
如果你对这个问题感兴趣，那么当你推迟它时，你更有可能在你的脑海中仍然保持它的活跃状态。
And that's when you begin to see, I imagine you could explain the biology of this.
那时你就会开始明白，我想你可以解释其生物学原理。
I imagine, for example, there are probably more neural networks that are connecting.
例如，我想可能有更多的神经网络正在连接。
You get access to ideas that previously would have been sort of separate nodes.
您可以访问以前属于单独节点的想法。
And so I think that you want to know what the topic is, right?
所以我想你想知道主题是什么，对吧？
You don't want to just see the blank assignment.
您不想只看到空白作业。
But you also have to find a reason that this is exciting to you.
但你也必须找到一个让你兴奋的理由。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Otherwise, you're going to avoid it as opposed to letting it percolate.
否则，你会避免它而不是让它渗透。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
That brings us to the topic of intrinsic motivation, and I'd like to link that up with the topic of performance.
这就引出了内在动机的主题，我想将其与绩效主题联系起来。
So when I was in university, there were many topics that I was excited to learn about, some more than others, of course.
因此，当我在大学时，有很多主题让我很兴奋地了解，当然，有些主题比其他主题更多。
But occasionally, I'd be in a class, or I'd get an assignment that frankly I had minimal interest in.
但偶尔，我会去上课，或者我会接到一项老实说我没什么兴趣的作业。
Never zero, but minimal interest.
利息绝不是零，而是最低限度。
And as a way of dealing with that, I embarked on a process of literally lying to myself and just telling myself, "Okay, I'm super interested in reading this, and I'm going to force myself to be interested in reading it." And lo and behold, I would start falling in love with certain things.
作为解决这个问题的一种方法，我开始了一个对自己撒谎的过程，只是告诉自己，“好吧，我对阅读这篇文章非常感兴趣，我将强迫自己对阅读它感兴趣。”你瞧，我会开始爱上某些东西。
Maybe it was even the arrival of a word that I didn't recognize, and then I would go look it up, and I knew I was studying for the GRE at that time, so I had to file that away.
甚至可能出现了一个我不认识的单词，然后我就会去查一下，我知道我当时正在备考GRE，所以我不得不把它归档。
I still have my notebooks of all the vocabulary words that I learned in the course of my university courses that frankly made the verbal portion of the GRE pretty easy.
我仍然保留着我在大学课程中学到的所有词汇的笔记本，坦率地说，这些词汇使 GRE 的口头部分变得非常简单。
Which, if you ever try and study for that at the end, it's pretty tough to commit all those new words to memory and context.
如果你最后尝试并学习这一点，那么将所有这些新单词记住并融入上下文是相当困难的。
So I could find little hooks, and through those hooks, I could kind of ratchet my way into a larger interest, and then lo and behold, I'm really interested in Greek mythology.
所以我可以找到一些小钩子，通过这些钩子，我可以逐渐进入更大的兴趣，然后你瞧，我对希腊神话真的很感兴趣。
I actually liked that one at first, but I didn't have to trick myself.
我一开始其实很喜欢那个，但我没必要欺骗自己。
But maybe we could spend a little bit of time talking about what is true intrinsic motivation.
但也许我们可以花一点时间讨论什么是真正的内在动机。
Is it always reflexive?
总是条件反射吗？
Can we make Ourselves intrinsically motivated about a given topic or scenario or group of people.
我们能否让自己对某个特定的主题、场景或一群人产生内在的动机？
And then let's talk about how intrinsic motivation links to performance, because there's a rich literature on this, as I recall, and I remember the Stanford study of rewarding kids for things they were already-
然后让我们谈谈内在动机如何与表现联系起来，因为据我记得，这方面有丰富的文献，而且我记得斯坦福大学的一项研究，该研究奖励孩子们已经做过的事情——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Lepper.
莱珀尔。
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
intrinsically motivated to do.
内在动机去做。
Maybe we could touch on that a little bit and remind people who haven't heard about it.
也许我们可以稍微谈一下这一点，并提醒那些还没有听说过的人。
But I'm fascinated by this topic because I feel like so much of life is about doing things that initially we don't feel that excited to do.
但我对这个话题很着迷，因为我觉得生活的大部分内容都是在做一些最初我们并不感到兴奋的事情。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet succeeding in life, until you can afford to offload your administrative work to somebody else, which hopefully by now you have.
然而，在生活中取得成功，直到你有能力将你的行政工作移交给其他人，希望现在你已经做到了。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Have to find a way to get it done.
必须找到一种方法来完成它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
This is fundamental to being a functional human being, frankly.
坦率地说，这是成为一个正常人的基础。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not just successful in air quotes, but functional.
不仅在空中报价方面取得成功，而且在功能上也取得了成功。
We got to do stuff that we don't enjoy doing.
我们必须做一些我们不喜欢做的事情。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think we can talk about a couple different ways to nurture intrinsic motivation.
所以我认为我们可以讨论几种不同的方法来培养内在动力。
We can think about how the task itself is designed, we can think about reward systems, and then we can think about also the things we say to ourselves and others.
我们可以考虑任务本身是如何设计的，我们可以考虑奖励系统，然后我们还可以考虑我们对自己和他人说的话。
Which I hope are not lies but rather persuasive attempts.
我希望这不是谎言，而是有说服力的尝试。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Let's start on that one, actually.
实际上，让我们从这个开始吧。
I don't know a lot of people who are that good at deliberate self-deception.
我不知道有多少人如此擅长故意自欺欺人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I like to think it was only around a particular set of goal-motivated pursuits.
嗯，我喜欢认为这只是围绕一组特定的目标驱动的追求。
But at that time, for me, also, it was survival.
但那时，对我来说，这也是生存。
As I mentioned, I didn't do well in high school.
正如我提到的，我在高中时表现不佳。
I really wanted to perform well in university, but I knew that working just for the grade wasn't going to carry me.
我真的很想在大学里表现出色，但我知道仅仅为了成绩而努力是无法支撑我的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It felt catabolic.
感觉是分解代谢的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I don't know, maybe at that age, I was still in the window of heightened neuroplasticity.
我不知道，也许在那个年纪，我仍然处于神经可塑性增强的窗口期。
We know it never closes.
我们知道它永远不会关闭。
But, I think I also fell in love with the process of learning how to do what I just described.
但是，我想我也爱上了学习如何做我刚才描述的事情的过程。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think for most people, the best method of self-persuasion is actually to convince somebody else.
所以我认为对于大多数人来说，最好的自我说服方法实际上是说服别人。
So I'm thinking of Elliot Aronson's classic research on cognitive dissonance, where he would ask you to go and tell somebody else a task you hated is really interesting.
所以我想到了埃利奥特·阿伦森（Elliot Aronson）关于认知失调的经典研究，他会要求你去告诉别人一项你讨厌的任务非常有趣。
And if he paid you a lot to do it, you still hated the task because you had a justification.
即使他付给你很多钱让你做这件事，你仍然讨厌这项任务，因为你有理由。
Like, "I got 20 bucks to kind of fib a little bit about this task.
就像，“我得到了 20 美元，因为我在这个任务上撒了一点小谎。
The task is bad, but I did it for the payment." When he paid you $1 to go and tell somebody that you loved a task that you didn't, you ended up liking it more.
任务很糟糕，但我是为了报酬才做的。”当他付给你 1 美元让你去告诉别人你喜欢一项你不喜欢的任务时，你最终会更喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
And maybe I shouldn't be surprised, but maybe you should tell me why I shouldn't be surprised.
也许我不应该感到惊讶，但也许你应该告诉我为什么我不应该感到惊讶。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Well.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I hope people got what you just said very clearly.
因为我希望人们能够非常清楚地理解你刚才所说的内容。
If they didn't, if you don't like doing something, going and reporting to somebody else how great that thing is, so lying about it to somebody else, is one way to increase the degree to which you like or enjoy that behavior or topic.
如果他们不喜欢，如果你不喜欢做某事，那就去向别人报告那件事有多棒，所以向别人撒谎，是增加你喜欢或享受该行为或话题的程度的一种方法。
And if you're paid $20 to go lie to somebody in the positive direction, so against your true belief, it's less effective in shifting your-
如果你付了 20 美元去向积极的方向对某人撒谎，那么违背你的真实信念，它在改变你的——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Your attitude
你的态度
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
underlying affect about that thing, your emotions, than if you're paid less.
与你的薪水较低相比，你对那件事的潜在影响，即你的情绪。
Correct?
正确的？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Now, I think obviously in the experiment, lying was an easy way to show the effect, but in real life, I think the way that you want to apply this is to say, "All right.
现在，我认为显然在实验中，说谎是显示效果的一种简单方法，但在现实生活中，我认为你想要应用它的方式是说，“好吧。
I've got to find something about this task that's interesting to me." And then in the process of explaining it to somebody else, I'm going to convince myself because I'm hearing the argument from somebody I already like and trust.
我必须在这项任务中找到一些令我感兴趣的东西。”然后在向别人解释的过程中，我会说服自己，因为我听到的是我已经喜欢和信任的人的论点。
And I've also chosen-
而我也选择了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, boy
哦，男孩
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
...
...
I've chosen the reasons that I find compelling as opposed to hearing somebody else's reasons.
我选择了我认为令人信服的理由，而不是听别人的理由。
And so I think this goes to the point that you were making, which is if you're trying to find a hook to make a topic intriguing, you've got to figure out, "Okay, what is it that would make this fascinating to me?" And in a lot of cases, what you're looking for is a curiosity gap.
所以我认为这正是你所要表达的观点，那就是如果你想找到一个吸引人的话题来让一个话题变得有趣，你必须弄清楚，“好吧，是什么让这个话题对我来说如此着迷？”在很多情况下，你要寻找的是好奇心差距。
I think social scientists like to talk about curiosity as an itch that you have to scratch.
我认为社会科学家喜欢把好奇心说成是你必须去抓的痒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
So there's something you want to know, and you don't know it yet.
所以有些事情你想知道，但你还不知道。
So I would say, I tell my students often, "Take your least favorite class and find a mystery or a puzzle." Like something that you just do not know the answer to.
所以我会说，我经常告诉我的学生，“选你最不喜欢的课，找到一个谜团或一个谜题。”就像你不知道答案的事情一样。
Actually, I've talked with our kids about this.
事实上，我已经和我们的孩子讨论过这个问题。
Like, "What really happened to King Tut?
就像，“图坦卡蒙国王究竟发生了什么？
Do you know?
你知道吗？
Can you get to the bottom of that?" And all of a sudden, you're like, "I wonder.
你能查出真相吗？”突然间，你会说：“我想知道。
I need to Google it, and then I need to see if Wikipedia has credible information on this." And the more you learn about that, the more intriguing it becomes.
我需要用谷歌搜索它，然后我需要看看维基百科是否有这方面的可靠信息。”你了解得越多，它就会变得越有趣。
And I think that's the beginning of the process of finding intrinsic motivation.
我认为这是寻找内在动机过程的开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
So inherent in your answer is the idea that there's something wired into our neural circuits, and therefore psychology, that curiosity as a verb, the act of being curious and seeking information where...
你的答案中固有的想法是，我们的神经回路中有某种东西，因此心理学，好奇心作为动词，好奇和寻求信息的行为......
Well, and I should say, I define curiosity, and hopefully you'll disagree with me or agree, either way, it doesn't matter as long as we can get a deeper understanding.
好吧，我应该说，我定义了好奇心，希望你不同意我的观点或同意我的观点，无论哪种方式，只要我们能够获得更深入的理解，都没关系。
I define curiosity as a desire to find something out where you are not attached to a particular outcome.
我将好奇心定义为一种不执着于特定结果的、想要发现某些事物的愿望。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
In psychology, it's typically defined as just wanting to know.
在心理学中，它通常被定义为只是想知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And that means that you're driven by the question, not a particular answer.
这意味着你是被问题驱动的，而不是特定的答案。
Which is exactly what you're driving at.
这正是你的目的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
So, and I think it was Dorothy Parker that said, "The cure for boredom is curiosity.
所以，我认为是多萝西·帕克（Dorothy Parker）说过的：“消除无聊的良方就是好奇心。
There is no cure for curiosity."
好奇心是无法治愈的。”
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
As there shouldn't be a cure for curiosity.
因为好奇心不应该被治愈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So, and by the way, folks, we don't know what neural circuits subserve curiosity in the brain.
所以，顺便说一句，朋友们，我们不知道哪些神经回路可以促进大脑的好奇心。
It's got to be a distributed network.
它必须是一个分布式网络。
There's no brain area for curiosity, but it's got to be linked up with the reward systems of dopamine, et cetera, in some way, because when one discovers something new that satisfies some curiosity, clearly there's an internal reward there.
大脑中没有好奇心区域，但它必须以某种方式与多巴胺等奖励系统联系起来，因为当一个人发现满足某种好奇心的新事物时，显然存在一种内部奖励。
Okay, let me back up.
好吧，让我备份一下。
So if your child or an adult is Dreading working, exploring a topic, or going about an assignment of any kind.
因此，如果您的孩子或成人害怕工作、探索某个主题或进行任何类型的作业。
You will give them a question that they then need to resolve.
您将向他们提出一个需要他们解决的问题。
What if the assignment is like rake the leaves off the front lawn?
如果任务就像是把前草坪上的树叶耙掉怎么办？
Do you say, "Count the leaves?" Or, I mean, how does one get past the sort of procrastination and generate some intrinsic motivation for things that one dreads where it's unlikely that they're going to discover some knowledge that's exceedingly useful for future?
你会说：“数一下叶子吗？”或者，我的意思是，一个人如何克服这种拖延，并为人们害怕的事情产生一些内在动力，而他们不太可能发现一些对未来非常有用的知识？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
You always start with, okay, what's the first experiment I can run?
你总是先问，好吧，我可以进行的第一个实验是什么？
Find the most interesting looking leaf or your favorite leaf, and then that lasts for about two minutes, and like, okay, now what?
找到最有趣的叶子或你最喜欢的叶子，然后持续大约两分钟，然后就像，好吧，现在怎么办？
We still have a lot of leaves there.
我们那里还有很多叶子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I think not all tasks can be made intrinsically motivating to everyone.
我认为并不是所有的任务都能从本质上激励每个人。
And so when intrinsic motivation is difficult to find, what you want to substitute with is a sense of purpose.
因此，当内在动机很难找到时，你想要用目标感来代替。
Maybe a better way to say that is, when the process is not interesting to you, you need to find a meaningful outcome.
也许更好的说法是，当你对这个过程不感兴趣时，你需要找到一个有意义的结果。
So there's some research on the boring but important effect, where kids who have a purpose for learning, this goes through high school, and think, "This is not just interesting to me, but I'm going to be able to use this knowledge to help other people one day," they're more persistent in their studying.
因此，有一些关于无聊但重要的效果的研究，那些有学习目的的孩子，在高中期间，会想，“这不仅对我来说很有趣，而且有一天我将能够利用这些知识来帮助其他人，”他们会更加坚持学习。
They end up getting better grades.
他们最终取得了更好的成绩。
And so I think intrinsic motivation is often driven by curiosity about the how.
因此，我认为内在动机通常是由对如何做的好奇心驱动的。
A sense of purpose comes from really thinking hard about the why.
使命感来自于认真思考原因。
Why does this matter?
为什么这很重要？
And so I'd say with the raking leaves, let's try to connect that task to something else that you care about.
因此，我想说，对于耙树叶，让我们尝试将该任务与您关心的其他事情联系起来。
Are you going to pleasantly surprise your parents when they get home?
当父母回家时，你想给他们一个惊喜吗？
Are you going to have a place to play soccer that you didn't before?
您想要一个以前没有踢过足球的地方吗？
And I think then the process of getting to that, I guess what I would say is, if you're trying to motivate yourself, it's a little bit harder than if you're trying to motivate somebody else on this.
我想，在实现这一目标的过程中，我想我想说的是，如果你试图激励自己，这比你试图激励别人要困难一些。
If I was going to motivate somebody else, I would take a page out of the motivational interviewing playbook where I would say, "Okay, Andrew, actually, let's play this out for a second.
如果我要激励其他人，我会借鉴激励性面试手册中的一页，我会说：“好吧，安德鲁，实际上，让我们先试一下这个。
So you're going to rake a pile of leaves.
所以你要耙一堆树叶。
It's a two-hour task.
这是一个两个小时的任务。
Zero to 10, how excited are you about that?"
从零到十，你对此有多兴奋？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A three.
一个三。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Three?
三个？
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I'm surprised.
我很惊讶。
I thought you were going to say zero or one.
我以为你会说零或一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Why is it not lower?
为什么不低呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like any sort of physical activity because it allows me to move, and I just like moving my body.
我喜欢任何形式的身体活动，因为它可以让我移动，而我就是喜欢移动我的身体。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
There we go.
我们开始吧。
Okay, so you just identified a potential source of purpose for that activity.
好的，您刚刚确定了该活动的潜在目的来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And I don't have a vested interest in convincing you to do this task.
说服你完成这项任务对我来说没有既得利益。
I am genuinely curious about what would motivate you to want to do it.
我真的很好奇什么会激励你这样做。
And as you start to articulate it, boom, self-persuasion kicks in.
当你开始清晰地表达它时，自我说服就开始了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Love it.
爱它。
I'm going to start using these approaches.
我将开始使用这些方法。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Try it at your own risk.
尝试一下，风险自负。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a question about extrinsic motivation.
我有一个关于外在动机的问题。
So if we grow up being incentivized by extrinsic things, you'll get your allowance if you blank.
因此，如果我们在外在事物的激励下长大，那么如果你空白，你就会得到你的津贴。
You can spend the money that you make on your paper route doing the things you really want to do.
你可以把在送纸路上赚到的钱花在你真正想做的事情上。
Is there any value in those kinds of learning-based incentives for kids and for adults?
这些基于学习的激励措施对儿童和成人有任何价值吗？
Because that's the real world as well.
因为那也是真实的世界。
I know plenty of people, I have family members that only work for a paycheck.
我认识很多人，我的家人只是为了薪水而工作。
And they're pretty okay because they like spending their paycheck.
他们还不错，因为他们喜欢花钱。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Probably more than I-- I'm not intrinsically attached to money.
可能比我更重要——我本质上并不执着于金钱。
I certainly have needs in life, but I don't enjoy spending money for the sake of spending it or for gaining more possessions, but I know people that do, and I certainly don't judge.
我当然有生活中的需求，但我不喜欢为了花钱或为了获得更多财产而花钱，但我知道有人这样做，而且我当然不会评判。
Are they somehow existing in a diminished landscape of happiness?
他们是否以某种方式存在于幸福感减弱的环境中？
Or, because they seem pretty happy to me.
或者，因为他们对我来说看起来很高兴。
But they seem to have also worked out this relationship.
但他们似乎也解决了这种关系。
They do certain things to get the extrinsic rewards, and they really enjoy what they can do with those extrinsic rewards.
他们做某些事情是为了获得外在奖励，并且他们真的很享受利用这些外在奖励所做的事情。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
So there's a huge body of evidence on what are the effects of extrinsic rewards on motivation and performance.
因此，有大量证据表明外在奖励对动机和绩效有何影响。
And I think the latest conclusions, if you look at the latest meta-analyses, so a huge study of studies trying to accumulate, like what's the average effect of adding a financial incentive to a task that wasn't incentivized before, or to a job where you were paid salary and now we're going to give you incentive compensation.
我认为最新的结论是，如果你看看最新的荟萃分析，那么大量的研究试图积累，比如在以前没有激励的任务上添加经济激励的平均效果是多少，或者在你拿薪水的工作上添加经济激励的平均效果是多少，现在我们将给你激励补偿。
There is a boost.
有一个提升。
So in general, people are more productive when they're incentivized for their output.
因此，总的来说，当人们的产出受到激励时，他们的生产力就会更高。
But these incentives are better for motivating quantity than quality.
但这些激励措施更能激励数量而不是质量。
So you see people get more done, but they're not necessarily more careful or more thorough.
所以你会看到人们做得更多，但他们不一定更仔细或更彻底。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are they less careful and less thorough?
他们是否不够细心、不够彻底？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
No. Actually, there's still positive effects on average.
不，实际上，平均而言仍然有积极的影响。
They're just weaker.
他们只是比较弱而已。
And of course, you could then start to say, "Well, how do I incentivize being fast and careful?"
当然，你可以开始说：“那么，我如何激励我变得又快又小心呢？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
But I think where we do have to be really cautious is there's an undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation, and you were alluding to this earlier, dating back to the early '70s, where we know that if we take an interesting task and then we pay you for it, you might conclude that you're only doing it for the outcome, and you lose interest in the task.
但我认为我们必须非常谨慎的是，外在奖励会对内在动机产生破坏性影响，你早些时候就提到过这一点，可以追溯到 70 年代初期，我们知道，如果我们承担一项有趣的任务，然后我们付钱给你，你可能会得出结论，你只是为了结果而做，并且你对任务失去了兴趣。
So the classic demonstration, Mark Lepper and colleagues, is kids playing video games.
马克·莱珀 (Mark Lepper) 及其同事的经典演示是孩子们玩电子游戏。
And they're playing them because they're fun, and then you start to add in an incentive, and then when the incentive's taken away, they don't want to play anymore because the meaning of the task has changed.
他们玩这些游戏是因为它们很有趣，然后你开始添加激励措施，然后当激励措施被取消时，他们就不想再玩了，因为任务的意义已经改变了。
And now I'm doing it because I want to get something out of it, as opposed to I love the process.
现在我这样做是因为我想从中得到一些东西，而不是我喜欢这个过程。
I think that that phenomenon does not have to exist.
我认为这种现象不一定存在。
So we know, for example, at work, if managers, as long as they give people autonomy, they don't present the rewards in a controlling way.
所以我们知道，比如说在工作中，如果管理者只要给予员工自主权，他们就不会以控制的方式呈现奖励。
So instead of saying, "Andrew, in order to earn this, you need to do the following work." If they say, "Hey, look, I'd really love it if you would deliver the following, and in order to make that worth your while, I'm offering this incentive," people react very differently when they have a sense of choice and control.
因此，不要说“安德鲁，为了获得这个，你需要做以下工作。”如果他们说，“嘿，听着，如果你能提供以下内容，我真的很高兴，为了让你的付出值得，我提供这种激励”，当人们有选择和控制感时，他们的反应会非常不同。
So I think that's the starting point.
所以我认为这是起点。
In the presence of autonomy, I don't think there's a major downside of extrinsic rewards.
在自主权存在的情况下，我认为外在奖励不会有重大缺点。
I think you also have to be careful that you're not over-justifying the task.
我认为你还必须小心，不要过度证明这项任务的合理性。
In other words, you're not swamping people's intrinsic reason for doing it, but you're adding a reason to try it.
换句话说，你并没有淹没人们这样做的内在原因，而是添加了尝试它的理由。
So actually, if we go to a different domain for a second, so look at kids who don't want to eat their vegetables.
所以实际上，如果我们换一个领域，看看那些不想吃蔬菜的孩子。
Extrinsic incentives are very effective to get kids to try vegetables for the first time.
外在激励对于让孩子第一次尝试蔬菜非常有效。
But then the hope is that they discover a vegetable or two that they don't mind, and then they find reasons to keep doing it.
但随后的希望是他们发现一两种他们不介意的蔬菜，然后他们找到继续这样做的理由。
And I think that's how I want a lot of rewards to work.
我认为这就是我希望获得大量奖励的方式。
I don't think that rewards should be carrots that we dangle to try to control people's behavior.
我认为奖励不应该是我们用来控制人们行为的胡萝卜。
I think they should be symbols of how much we appreciate and value a particular behavior.
我认为它们应该象征着我们对特定行为的欣赏和重视程度。
And if you frame them that way, it's a lot easier for people to say, "Yeah.
如果你以这种方式构建它们，人们就更容易说：“是的。
You know what?
你知道吗？
That reward is something that I really want, but I'm not only doing the task for that reward."
那个奖励是我真正想要的东西，但我做任务不仅仅是为了那个奖励。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
You basically answered the question I was going to ask, which is, and at risk of sounding new agey, but we are sitting in California.
你基本上回答了我要问的问题，即，并且有听起来新时代的风险，但我们坐在加利福尼亚州。
I could imagine that when one is focused on the extrinsic rewards, so a physical task or a cognitive task for an extrinsic reward, if I'm focusing on the extrinsic reward, I'm also, air quotes again, "not present." I'm thinking about the outcome, I'm not thinking about process.
我可以想象，当一个人专注于外在奖励时，如果我专注于外在奖励，那么我也“不在场”。我考虑的是结果，而不是过程。
And I think perhaps you can flesh out some of what this is exactly, but I think there's a fairly extensive data to support the idea that when we are physically and mentally present to the task, that we're going to perform better.
我想也许你可以具体说明这到底是什么，但我认为有相当广泛的数据可以支持这样的想法：当我们在身体和精神上都投入到任务中时，我们会表现得更好。
And presumably our intrinsic liking of that task or performing that task increases as well.
想必我们对这项任务或执行这项任务的内在喜好也会增加。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah, I think so.
是的，我想是的。
If we want to break down the mechanisms for why intrinsic motivation is useful for performance, one you touched on earlier, it's focus of attention.
如果我们想分解为什么内在动机对绩效有用的机制（您之前提到过），它就是关注的焦点。
It's much easier to find flow when you're intrinsically motivated.
当你有内在动力时，会更容易找到心流。
You get into that state of deep absorption where time melts away.
你会进入那种时间消逝的深度专注状态。
So you mentioned either speeding up or slowing down your sense of time.
所以你提到加快或减慢你的时间感。
You forget where you are.
你忘记了你在哪里。
Sometimes you even lose track of your identity, and you're just merged into the task.
有时你甚至会忘记自己的身份，而只是融入到任务中。
And so that concentration is helpful.
所以集中注意力是有帮助的。
There's also a greater persistence effect that when you enjoy what you're doing, you're less likely to give up in the face of obstacles.
还有一个更大的持久效应，即当你喜欢自己所做的事情时，你在面对障碍时就不太可能放弃。
You're more likely to think about it when you're not doing the task and come up with great ideas.
当你不做任务时，你更有可能思考并想出好主意。
And so, I think there's a working harder, there's a working longer, there's a working smarter, and there's also a thinking more clearly effect.
所以，我认为有一个更努力的工作，有一个工作更长时间，有一个工作更聪明，还有一个思考更清晰的效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a brief but related tangent.
这是一个简短但相关的切线。
One of the things that I've found incredibly difficult in recent years is that most of my life, really since I was a small kid, I was forging for things, and then I used to give lectures on Monday in class if they let me, until they eventually stopped me, about the stuff I was reading about all weekend.
近年来我发现非常困难的一件事是，我一生中的大部分时间，实际上从我还是个小孩子的时候起，我就在锻造东西，然后如果他们允许的话，我常常在周一在课堂上讲课，直到他们最终阻止我，讲授我整个周末都在读的东西。
So got an early start- ...
所以很早就开始了——...
on the professorial front.
在教授方面。
But now, if I'm reading something and I discover what I think is a really valuable piece of information or a tool or a protocol, I'm like, "Wow, this is really cool.
但现在，如果我正在阅读某些内容，并且发现了我认为非常有价值的信息、工具或协议，我会想，“哇，这真的很酷。
These findings are so cool." There's a problem, which is that now I have an opportunity to cast that out to the world through social media.
这些发现太酷了。”有一个问题，那就是现在我有机会通过社交媒体向全世界展示这一点。
We all do.
我们都这样做。
This could be-
这可能是——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Wait, I'm sorry.
等等，对不起。
You're on social media?
你在社交媒体上吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
From time to time.
时不时地。
I do my-
我做我的——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
You're all over my feeds.
我的动态里到处都是你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You and I both do our own social media, by the way, which I really appreciate.
顺便说一下，你和我都有自己的社交媒体，我真的很感激。
Thank you.
谢谢。
One can always detect if someone else is handling someone's social media.
人们总是可以检测到其他人是否正在处理某人的社交媒体。
So yes, I'm on social media, and I love that I have the opportunity to both send out ideas and information, and also receive feedback.
所以，是的，我在社交媒体上，我喜欢有机会发送想法和信息，并接收反馈。
I really love the comment section, and always encourage comments.
我真的很喜欢评论部分，并且总是鼓励评论。
I learn from it, frankly.
坦率地说，我从中吸取了教训。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Love is a strong word.
爱是一个强烈的词。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I learn from it.
我从中学习。
And you and I were weaned in the academic culture, where frankly, the kind of hazing that one receives in academic culture is very different than the kind of hazing that one receives on social media.
你和我都是在学术文化中断奶的，坦率地说，一个人在学术文化中受到的欺凌与在社交媒体上受到的欺凌有很大不同。
But let's just say that if you come up through academia, you develop a pretty thick skin.
但我们只能说，如果你是在学术界出身的，你的脸皮就会很厚。
So-
所以——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I agree with that.
我同意这一点。
I do have to say, though, that there was a part of me that was really surprised when I started posting on social.
不过，我确实不得不说，当我开始在社交媒体上发帖时，我内心深处感到非常惊讶。
I love constructive criticism.
我喜欢建设性的批评。
I was unprepared for the number of people who will knee-jerk criticize a study without even looking at whether the methods are rigorous.
我没想到有这么多人会下意识地批评一项研究，甚至不考虑方法是否严格。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I'm like, "Come on.
我想，“来吧。
If I posted this, surely it's at least worth considering the possibility-"
如果我发布了这个，那么至少值得考虑这种可能性——”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
...
...
that there's strong evidence behind it."
背后有强有力的证据。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Well, that's where a brief, I won't call it a retort, but a response of, "Clearly, you should read the study further because I think you'll be satisfied with the answer," or something.
好吧，这就是一个简短的内容，我不会称之为反驳，而是一种回应，“显然，你应该进一步阅读这项研究，因为我认为你会对答案感到满意”，或者其他什么。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But I agree.
但我同意。
It can be a little bit harsh in there sometimes.
有时那里可能有点严酷。
But the social media channels it's a double-edged blade.
但社交媒体渠道认为这是一把双刃剑。
They obviously have their issues, but can be a wonderful opportunity to share information and share it quickly.
他们显然有自己的问题，但可能是分享信息并快速分享的绝佳机会。
The problem is that it takes me out of what I was doing initially, which was learning, searching for those gems which to share later.
问题是，它让我脱离了我最初所做的事情，即学习、寻找那些稍后分享的宝石。
And I think there's a broader landscape to consider this, where people, for instance, are...
我认为有一个更广泛的领域来考虑这个问题，例如，人们......
I was at the beach yesterday.
昨天我在海滩。
It was just absolutely spectacular day at the beach, especially for this time of year.
这真是海滩上绝对壮观的一天，尤其是在一年中的这个时候。
And everyone was taking pictures of that experience on their phone and probably sharing that experience either social media or with friends.
每个人都用手机拍下这段经历，并可能通过社交媒体或与朋友分享这段经历。
This is very different than taking a photograph and not seeing that photograph until later, or not sending it out.
这与拍完照片后才看到照片或不将其发送出去有很大不同。
And so there are now near infinite number of circumstances where we are taken out of the rewarding experience.
因此，现在有几乎无数的情况使我们无法享受有益的经历。
I should rephrase that.
我应该重新表述一下。
We are taking ourselves out of the rewarding experience and focusing on a different rewarding experience that I think by definition is an extrinsic reward.
我们正在将自己从奖励性体验中解放出来，专注于另一种奖励性体验，我认为根据定义，这是一种外在奖励。
So we are taking ourselves out of our intrinsically rewarding experiences and activating these extrinsic rewards.
因此，我们正在将自己从内在的奖励体验中解放出来，并激活这些外在的奖励。
And do you think in any way that's undermining our experience of things that we really enjoy?
你认为这是否会以任何方式破坏我们对我们真正喜欢的事物的体验？
Again, not to demonize social media or these channels, but-
再次强调，并不是要妖魔化社交媒体或这些渠道，而是——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I've personally found it difficult to refrain from sharing this knowledge that I'm so excited to share, but I deliberately delay.
我个人发现很难不分享这些我很高兴分享的知识，但我故意拖延。
And I have a deep list of folders full of things that I want to post, but I'm just doing it systematically over time because I really fight the temptation to do this, mostly because I want to continue to enjoy this learning process and this seeking process so much.
我有一个很深的文件夹列表，里面装满了我想发布的东西，但我只是随着时间的推移系统地做，因为我真的抵制这样做的诱惑，主要是因为我想继续享受这个学习过程和这个寻求过程。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah, I feel the same.
是的，我也有同样的感觉。
I feel torn.
我感觉很撕裂。
I think it was E.B.
我认为是 E.B.
White who said, "I rise in the morning torn between the desire to enjoy the world and the desire to improve the world, and this makes it difficult to plan the day." And I feel that every day.
怀特说：“早上起床时，我在享受世界的欲望和改善世界的欲望之间左右为难，这使得我很难计划这一天。”我每天都有这样的感觉。
I felt it this morning.
今天早上我感觉到了。
I was like, "Okay, it's time to leave to come to the Huberman podcast." And I'm like, "Wait, but I didn't hit my minimum sunlight viewing.
我当时想，“好吧，是时候离开去听休伯曼播客了。”我想，“等等，但我没有达到最低日光观看水平。
So what do I do?
那我该怎么办？
Do I show up on time for you, or do I meet your criteria?"
我是否准时出现给你，或者我符合你的标准吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The explanation, "I was getting my morning sunlight and therefore I'm X number of minutes or even hours late," would've been completely fine with me.
“我早上沐浴在阳光下，因此迟到了 X 分钟甚至几个小时”，这样的解释对我来说完全没问题。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I figured as much.
我也是这么想的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
That's a built-in acceptable excuse with you.
这是一个你可以接受的内在借口。
I think everybody experiences a version of this, and it's definitely gotten worse with social media and with smartphones.
我认为每个人都经历过这种情况，而且社交媒体和智能手机的使用肯定会变得更糟。
One of the most startling data points for me was, Gloria Mark first put this on my radar.
对我来说最令人惊讶的数据点之一是，格洛丽亚·马克（Gloria Mark）首先把这个放在我的雷达上。
Before COVID, the average person was checking email 72 times a day.
在新冠疫情爆发之前，普通人每天查看电子邮件 72 次。
How do you ever concentrate for more than a couple of minutes if you're self-interrupting that often?
如果你经常自我打扰，你如何能够集中注意力超过几分钟呢？
You can't.
你不能。
Brigid Schulte has a great term for this.
布里吉德·舒尔特对此有一个很好的术语。
She calls it time confetti.
她称之为时间五彩纸屑。
And she says we're taking these meaningful blocks of time and we're slicing them up into these tiny little dots of confetti.
她说我们正在利用这些有意义的时间块，并将它们切成五彩纸屑的小点。
And not only can we not accomplish anything, we're also eroding our own sense of joy because it's really hard to enjoy the 30-second blip of time that you get on a task.
我们不仅无法完成任何事情，而且还侵蚀了我们自己的快乐感，因为我们很难享受完成任务时的 30 秒时间。
And I think we know a lot more about the existence of these problems than how to solve them.
我认为我们对这些问题的存在了解得比如何解决它们要多得多。
But one thing we do know is blocking out uninterrupted time is meaningful.
但我们确实知道的一件事是，留出不受干扰的时间是有意义的。
There's a great Leslie Perlow experiment where she takes engineers and she sets a quiet time policy.
莱斯利·珀洛（Leslie Perlow）有一个很棒的实验，她邀请工程师并制定了安静的时间政策。
No interruptions Tuesday, Thursday, Friday before noon.
周二、周四、周五中午之前无中断。
65% above average productivity.
生产力高于平均水平 65%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you repeat the protocol again?
你能再重复一遍协议吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So quiet time, there are a couple iterations of it, but I think the most effective one was Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, no meetings, no interruptions, no Slack, no emails before noon.
如此安静的时间，有几次迭代，但我认为最有效的是周二、周四、周五，没有会议，没有打扰，没有 Slack，中午之前没有电子邮件。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And during those periods of no interruptions, one could tend to whatever their primary purpose is at work.
在那些不受干扰的时期，人们可以专注于工作的主要目的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You have a-
你有一个-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for me, it might be podcasting.
所以对我来说，可能是播客。
Obviously, I don't have my phone in here, and never do.
显然，我的手机不在这儿，而且从来没有。
But it doesn't mean no interaction with anyone else.
但这并不意味着不能与其他人互动。
It just means focusing on the major task.
这只是意味着专注于主要任务。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
The task, exactly.
任务，准确地说。
And you come in with a clear sense of priority and purpose.
你带着清晰的优先感和目标来到这里。
And I don't think there's anything magical about Tuesday, Thursday, Friday before noon.
我不认为周二、周四、周五中午之前有什么神奇的事情。
It's just the idea of setting a boundary and collectively committing to it that seems to be important.
设定界限并共同致力于此的想法似乎很重要。
And when I think about this, I'd be really curious about your take on chronotypes here, because I think one thing I've learned in the last couple of years is that if you're a morning person, you do your best analytical and creative thinking in the morning.
当我想到这一点时，我真的很好奇你对时间类型的看法，因为我认为我在过去几年中学到的一件事是，如果你是一个早起的人，你会在早上进行最好的分析和创造性思维。
And so the quiet time block would work very well for me as a morning person.
因此，安静的时间段对于我这个早起的人来说非常有效。
If you're a night owl, you probably want that block in the late afternoon.
如果你是一个夜猫子，你可能想要在下午晚些时候去那个街区。
And I was encouraged, there was some evidence during COVID that people have their best meetings right after lunch, that they're something like 30% less likely to multitask in an after-lunch meeting.
我很受鼓舞，在新冠疫情期间有一些证据表明，人们在午餐后召开的会议效果最好，他们在午餐后会议中同时处理多项任务的可能性降低了 30%。
And I guess you could probably unpack the food coma, getting re-energized by other people, but it's led me to wonder if we should all be protecting the first few hours and the last few hours of the day for deep work, and then doing our core meetings and interactions and kind of off-task activities in the middle.
我想你可能会解开食物昏迷的包装，在其他人的帮助下重新焕发活力，但这让我想知道我们是否都应该保护一天的前几个小时和最后几个小时进行深度工作，然后在中间进行我们的核心会议和互动以及某种非任务活动。
What do you think about that as a sequence?
你认为这作为一个序列怎么样？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I have a lot of questions about this for you, but I love that sequence.
好吧，我有很多关于这个的问题要问你，但我喜欢这个序列。
It certainly fits with my natural rhythms.
这当然符合我的自然节奏。
I think there's ample evidence to support the fact that provided one is sleeping well at night and is on a more or less a standard schedule.
我认为有足够的证据支持这一事实，只要一个人晚上睡得好，并且或多或少有一个标准的作息时间。
When I say standard, I mean going to bed somewhere between, let's say, 9:30 and 11:30 PM, waking up some time between, let's say, 6:00 AM and 8:00 AM, maybe 5:30 to 7:30.
当我说标准时，我的意思是在晚上 9:30 到 11:30 之间的某个时间睡觉，在早上 6:00 到上午 8:00 之间（也许是 5:30 到 7:30）之间的某个时间醒来。
Something like that.
类似的事情。
So not highly unusual, a night owl or super early bird.
所以，夜猫子或超级早起的鸟儿并不是很不寻常。
For people that are following that sort of schedule, let's just say from zero to eight hours after waking, there tends to be a fairly robust increase in all the catecholamines, so dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine, which generally speaking, lead to increases in alertness, attention, and focus that are great for analytic work, great for implementation of strategies that you already understand, and you need to churn through a lot of stuff.
对于遵循这种作息时间的人来说，从醒来后零到八小时，所有儿茶酚胺、多巴胺、去甲肾上腺素、肾上腺素往往会相当强劲地增加，一般来说，它们会导致警觉性、注意力和注意力的增加，这对分析工作非常有用，对实施你已经理解的策略非常有用，而且你需要翻阅很多东西。
And of course, there's a big increase in the morning, especially if you view morning sunlight, a healthy increase, I should say, in cortisol.
当然，早上会有很大的增加，特别是如果你看到早晨的阳光，我应该说，皮质醇的健康增加。
Cortisol is not bad, folks.
伙计们，皮质醇并不坏。
You want cortisol, but you want that peak early in the day.
你想要皮质醇，但你想要在一天的早些时候达到峰值。
We know that.
我们知道这一点。
Okay, so for most people, it seems, at least my understanding is that that period of time, zero to eight hours after waking or so, is best devoted to the quote-unquote most critical tasks.
好吧，对于大多数人来说，至少我的理解是，醒来后零到八小时左右的那段时间最好专门用于最关键的任务。
But one of the common problems is that people take that ability to implement a known strategy, and they start battering back all the emails.
但常见的问题之一是，人们利用这种能力来实施已知的策略，然后他们开始反击所有电子邮件。
By the way, talking to coworkers is great, and it's often required, but the question is whether or not it's productive conversation or whether or not it's just conversation.
顺便说一句，与同事交谈很棒，而且通常是必需的，但问题是这是否是富有成效的谈话，或者是否只是谈话。
And we tend to have a lot of energy early in the day.
我们往往在一天的早些时候就精力充沛。
And I'm obsessed with the idea of neural energy as opposed to just caloric energy.
我着迷于神经能量的概念，而不仅仅是热量能量。
So there, we're talking about neural energy.
所以，我们正在谈论神经能量。
And then post-lunch, so really As we get to the sort of nine to 17 hours after waking, there is a dip in autonomic arousal that during the middle of the day, that post-prandial dip, there's a post-lunch sleepiness that can be partially offset by delaying your morning caffeine a bit if you have the afternoon crash.
然后是午饭后，当我们醒来后大约 9 到 17 个小时时，自主神经的兴奋度会下降，在中午，也就是餐后的下降，会出现午餐后的困倦，如果你下午有崩溃的情况，可以通过延迟一点早上的咖啡因来部分抵消。
But it's interesting that you know that more productive meetings and less task switching and distraction occurred in meetings set after lunch, because that makes me think that perhaps being a little bit less alert is going to lend itself to more focus.
但有趣的是，你知道午餐后的会议会更有成效，任务切换和干扰会更少，因为这让我认为，也许稍微不那么警觉会让自己更加专注。
And indeed, that's the sort of optimal state, relaxed but focused.
事实上，这就是一种最佳状态，放松但专注。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not sleepy, but you also don't have so much intrinsic energy that you're-
你不困，但你也没有那么多内在能量，以至于你——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Not tending to emails
不关心电子邮件
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tending to a bunch of things.
照顾一堆事情。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I think a lot of people do feel that way.
因为我想很多人确实有这样的感觉。
And I'm drinking double espresso right now, late morning, and I can sit still, but I think certain Zoom meetings, how do I say this?
我现在正在喝双份浓缩咖啡，上午晚些时候，我可以安静地坐着，但我认为某些 Zoom 会议，我该怎么说？
I don't want to offend any of my colleagues.
我不想冒犯任何同事。
They are boring enough.
他们已经够无聊的了。
They are not content rich enough to grab all my attention.
它们的内容不够丰富，不足以吸引我所有的注意力。
And nowadays, of course, there are multiple screens.
当然，现在有多个屏幕。
Typically, I've got two phones and a computer, and you have to really spend some work to flip over those phones while I'm on a Zoom, and things like that.
通常，我有两部手机和一台电脑，当我使用 Zoom 时，你必须花一些功夫来翻转这些手机，诸如此类。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Sorry, what were you saying?
抱歉，你刚才说什么？
I wasn't listening.
我没在听。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's maybe the reduction in autonomic arousal that supports what you just described, but I don't know.
所以也许自主神经兴奋的减少支持了你刚才描述的情况，但我不知道。
My thinking, or my understanding rather, was that creative work and kind of brainstorming was best accomplished in the late afternoon.
我的想法，或者说我的理解是，创造性工作和头脑风暴最好在下午晚些时候完成。
I've noticed when lecturing, I'd be curious what your experience is with in university lectures when I held courses in the evening, I used to like to hold my courses 5:00 to 7:00 PM or even 7:00 to 9:30 PM when I was teaching undergraduates, that people were much looser and more relaxed.
我在讲课时注意到，我很好奇你在晚上上课时的大学讲座体验如何，我以前在教本科生时喜欢在下午 5:00 到 7:00 甚至晚上 7:00 到 9:30 上课，人们更加宽松和放松。
And I always thought that that might have something to do with an increase in GABA transmission that's known to happen in late evening, that people are just more relaxed and less social anxiety.
我一直认为这可能与 GABA 传播的增加有关，众所周知，这种情况发生在深夜，人们更加放松，社交焦虑也更少。
They've been around people for much of the day.
他们一天中的大部分时间都在人们身边。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Anyway.
无论如何。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I send back more reflections than answers.
我发回的思考多于答案。
I don't have any firm neuroscience explanations for what you described, but there are some emerging theories about how that might work, and it has this zero to nine hours, phase one, nine to 17 hours, phase two, and then, of course, from 17 to 24 hours, I'll call it phase three.
对于你所描述的，我没有任何确切的神经科学解释，但是有一些关于它如何运作的新兴理论，它有0到9小时，第一阶段，9到17小时，第二阶段，然后，当然，从17到24小时，我称之为第三阶段。
You should be asleep.
你应该睡了。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ideally.
理想情况下。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Well, I think there's a confound in your teaching experience, which is undergrads often sleep in until, what, noon-
嗯，我认为你的教学经历中有一个令人困惑的地方，那就是本科生经常睡到，什么，中午——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
True
真实
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
...
...
or they might be up until 4:00 AM.
或者他们可能会一直工作到凌晨 4:00。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or at least 10:00 AM seems to be a typical rise time for-
或者至少上午 10:00 似乎是典型的起床时间-
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the undergrad.
本科生。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
So a morning class might be too early for them to be fully awake.
因此，早上的课程对于他们来说可能还太早，无法完全清醒。
But there's some brand-new evidence that, at least on creativity at work, I read a series of, I think it was three studies recently, showing that early birds actually did do more creative work in the morning.
但有一些全新的证据表明，至少在工作中的创造力方面，我读了一系列的，我想是最近的三项研究，表明早起的鸟儿实际上在早上做了更多的创造性工作。
And in part, I think, again, I don't think any neuroscientist has touched the mechanisms on this yet, but in terms of the psychological processes, early on, there seems to be a benefit of the energy level.
在某种程度上，我再次认为，我认为还没有任何神经科学家触及过这方面的机制，但就心理过程而言，早期，能量水平似乎有好处。
And some of that energy leads to more divergent thinking.
其中一些能量会导致更加发散的思维。
And later, if you're a morning person, you might lose the ability to diverge quite as much, and so you end up in a more conventional space of thought.
后来，如果你是一个早起的人，你可能会失去同样多的发散能力，所以你最终会陷入一个更传统的思维空间。
Does that track at all with your understanding of how it might play out in the brain?
这与你对它在大脑中如何发挥作用的理解完全一致吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My understanding is it would be individual, but there is something to these liminal states between sleep and waking.
我的理解是，这会因人而异，但睡眠和清醒之间的这些阈值状态是有一定的关系的。
So maybe we can wrap a convenient bow around what I said and what you just said, which is that we know that in the transition states into and out of sleep, and it doesn't necessarily have to be within the first half hour in and out of sleep, that there seems to be more divergent thinking, or at least activation of neural networks that are not as constrained as one observes when they're in a sheer task and strategy implementation mode.
因此，也许我们可以方便地总结一下我所说的和你刚才所说的，那就是我们知道，在进入和离开睡眠的过渡状态中，并且不一定必须在进入和离开睡眠的前半小时内，似乎存在更发散的思维，或者至少神经网络的激活不像人们在纯粹的任务和策略实施模式中所观察到的那样受到限制。
Right?
正确的？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Is that similar to the shower effect?
是不是和淋浴效果很像？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The shower effect, so people have ideas in the shower or while running or while falling asleep.
淋浴效应，使人们在淋浴时或跑步时或入睡时产生想法。
My best ideas always come within the first hour after waking.
我最好的想法总是在醒来后的第一个小时内出现。
That's why I carry a notebook around and, much to the dismay of people in my life, oftentimes, I don't want to hear or talk to anyone first thing in the morning.
这就是为什么我随身携带笔记本，而且令我生活中的人们非常沮丧的是，我常常不想在早上第一件事就听到或与任何人交谈。
This is problematic, and I had to make adjustments, and we'll talk about adjustments between productivity and control and family interactions.
这是有问题的，我必须做出调整，我们将讨论生产力和控制力以及家庭互动之间的调整。
This is something I know you've worked on and written about.
我知道这是你一直在研究和撰写的内容。
But those liminal states are interesting, and I'd love your thoughts on this.
但这些阈值状态很有趣，我很想听听你对此的想法。
I've had several guests on this podcast talk about their creative process, namely Rick Rubin, who's famous for his work in music producing, also has a great podcast, "Tetris" Gramaton, as well as Carl Dice Roth, a colleague of mine who's really in the .0001% of super talented bioengineers, neuroscientists, who also happens to be a full-time clinical psychiatrist and has five children.
我在这个播客上有几位嘉宾谈论了他们的创作过程，即以音乐制作而闻名的 Rick Rubin，他也有一个很棒的播客“俄罗斯方块”Gramaton，以及我的一位同事 Carl Dice Roth，他确实是 0.0001% 的超级天才生物工程师、神经科学家，他也恰好是一名全职临床精神病学家，有五个孩子。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I asked them about their creative process because both of them are very creative.
我问了他们的创作过程，因为他们都非常有创造力。
Carl's process involves the following: Late at night for him, but it could really be any time of day, deliberately making his body as still as possible and forcing himself to think in complete sentences.
卡尔的过程包括以下内容：对他来说是深夜，但也可能是一天中的任何时间，刻意让他的身体尽可能静止，强迫自己思考完整的句子。
Rick's creative process, although it includes a lot of different things, has a lot to do with also getting very still, lying down.
里克的创作过程虽然包含了很多不同的东西，但与保持静止、躺着有很大关系。
Okay, other folks that I've spoken to, academics and artists, have referred to getting their body into motion but quieting their mind.
好吧，我采访过的其他人，学者和艺术家，都提到了让他们的身体运动起来，但让他们的思想安静下来。
So these are two opposite processes.
所以这是两个相反的过程。
In one case, the body is still, but the mind is deliberately very active.
在一种情况下，身体是静止的，但头脑却故意非常活跃。
In the other scenario, the body is very active, but they're making their mind sort of in free association, not still, but they're not deliberately thinking about any one thing.
在另一种情况下，身体非常活跃，但他们的思想处于自由联想的状态，而不是静止的，但他们没有刻意地思考任何一件事。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Fascinating.
令人着迷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm obsessed with this.
我对此很着迷。
Maybe you and I could work on this.
也许你和我可以为此努力。
I'm due for a sabbatical.
我该休假了。
Maybe we could figure this out because I think-
也许我们可以解决这个问题，因为我认为——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I've never seen anyone study this before.
我以前从未见过有人研究过这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
No, the nervous system, I'm not aware of anyone that's done it formally either.
不，是神经系统，我也不知道有谁正式这样做过。
The nervous system, of course, is a brain-body phenomenon.
当然，神经系统是一种脑体现象。
And so what happens when we sort of cut off the deliberate operations of brain or body And it doesn't seem to matter whether or not it's brain or body, as long as one is deliberately shut off.
那么，当我们切断大脑或身体的有意运作时，会发生什么？无论是大脑还是身体，只要有人故意切断，似乎并不重要。
And so anyway, I'd love your thoughts on this.
无论如何，我很想听听你对此的想法。
I don't consider myself an ultra creative or creative type to any great degree, but-
我不认为自己是一个超级有创造力或有任何伟大程度的创造力类型，但是-
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Me neither.
我也一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm fascinated-
但我很着迷——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
That's why I'm studying it.
这就是我正在研究它的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're right.
你是对的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Instead of doing it.
而不是去做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
But I'm fascinated by these deliberate tactics that highly creative people have undertaken in order to bring about ideas.
但我对那些富有创造力的人们为了产生想法而采取的深思熟虑的策略着迷。
I certainly have some of my best ideas when I'm running, and I'll just be running along like, "My goodness, I wasn't even thinking, but now I need to write this down.
当我跑步时，我当然有一些最好的想法，我会一边跑一边说，“天哪，我什至没有想到，但现在我需要把它写下来。
Okay." And then continue.
好吧。”然后继续。
I tried the Deisseroth approach and the Rubin approach, actually just spent a week with Rick overseas, and indeed, he spends a lot of time just still, thinking.
我尝试了Deisseroth方法和Rubin方法，实际上刚刚和Rick在海外呆了一周，事实上，他花了很多时间静止不动，思考。
And it's a very hard practice to get consistent with.
而且这是一个很难保持一致的做法。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I wonder if there are individual differences here on which needs to be stable or steady.
我想知道这里是否存在个体差异，需要稳定或稳定。
I'm thinking about a huge part of creativity is overriding your default instincts.
我认为创造力的很大一部分是超越你的默认本能。
And if you're somebody whose default is to have your mind constantly going, then quieting would probably shift your train of thought to something more original or unconventional.
如果你的默认习惯是让你的思维不断运转，那么安静可能会将你的思路转移到更新颖或更非传统的事情上。
The opposite might be true.
事实可能恰恰相反。
If you have a naturally quiet mind, I would imagine you need to sort of jolt yourself out of that with lots of access to free-ranging thoughts.
如果你有一个天生安静的头脑，我想你需要通过大量自由思考来让自己摆脱这种状态。
And so it'd be interesting actually to study whether we can predict what you should still based on your personality.
因此，研究我们是否可以根据你的个性来预测你应该做什么，实际上是很有趣的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And maybe what we could do with that study, I think we have a collaboration brewing.
也许我们可以通过这项研究做些什么，我认为我们正在酝酿合作。
There's a joke, two scientists walk into a room, and what comes out is a collaboration.
有一个笑话，两个科学家走进一个房间，结果是合作。
So I'd want to put people in a scanner.
所以我想让人们接受扫描仪。
It's hard to get people treadmilling in a scanner because of movement artifact, and just look at resting network activation and compare that to resting network activation when people are completely still and forcing themselves to think in deliberate senses, and then look at the overlap in that Venn diagram.
由于运动伪影，很难让人们在扫描仪中跑步，只需查看静息网络激活并将其与人们完全静止并强迫自己以刻意的感觉思考时的静息网络激活进行比较，然后查看维恩图中的重叠部分。
That's what's of interest to me.
这就是我感兴趣的。
They may be completely different brain states.
它们可能是完全不同的大脑状态。
They might actually have more similarity than differences.
实际上，它们的相似之处可能多于差异。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I wonder then if you can tie that to differences in the quality and quantity of output.
那么我想知道是否可以将其与产出质量和数量的差异联系起来。
So I would imagine that one of the benefits of either kind of movement is that you end up increasing the volume of ideas, which we know is good for variety and ultimately increases the probability that you stumble onto something new.
因此，我认为这两种运动的好处之一就是你最终会增加想法的数量，我们知道这有利于多样性，并最终增加你偶然发现新事物的可能性。
But then I think the being still part is probably better for the filtering process of...
但后来我认为静止的部分对于过滤过程可能更好......
I think one of the hardest parts of creativity is actually judging your own ideas.
我认为创造力最困难的部分之一实际上是判断你自己的想法。
Most creative people have many terrible ideas.
大多数有创造力的人都会有很多糟糕的想法。
In fact, the most creative people have the most horrible ideas because they just have a lot of ideas.
事实上，最有创造力的人有最可怕的想法，因为他们有很多想法。
And I think that maybe there's a way in which quieting either your body or your mind allows you to gain some distance from the idea and see whether it's boneheaded or promising.
我认为也许有一种方法可以让你的身体或思想安静下来，让你与这个想法保持一定的距离，看看它是愚蠢的还是有前途的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Along those lines, when one is trying to gauge the quality of their ideas, how does one cope with not placing a judge on that that causes some false negatives where you're wiping out great ideas?
沿着这些思路，当一个人试图衡量自己的想法的质量时，如何应对不对其进行判断，从而导致一些错误的否定，从而消除了伟大的想法？
Because Rick Rubin talks a lot about don't give the audience what they want.
因为里克·鲁宾经常谈到不要给观众他们想要的东西。
They don't know what they want.
他们不知道自己想要什么。
They haven't seen it yet.
他们还没有看到。
If it's a truly creative idea, they haven't seen it.
如果这是一个真正有创意的想法，他们还没有看到。
But of course, we all have to develop our own sense of taste.
但当然，我们都必须培养自己的味觉。
So, well, how does this process work for you?
那么，这个过程对您来说如何呢？
You've written about and worked on a tremendous range of topics, and always I must say with such rigor and such clarity of communication about those topics.
您撰写并研究了广泛的主题，我必须始终以如此严谨和清晰的方式就这些主题进行沟通。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's absolutely true.
是的，这绝对是真的。
Like 100%.
就像100%一样。
So we say around here, "No weak sauce."
所以我们在这里说，“没有淡酱”。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
That's a great phrase.
这是一个很棒的短语。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's no weak sauce in your game.
你的游戏中没有弱酱。
It's incredible.
太不可思议了。
So, when do you get your ideas, and how do you filter those ideas?
那么，你什么时候得到你的想法，以及你如何过滤这些想法？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I feel like the when could be any time.
我觉得什么时候都可以。
You've clearly experienced this, too.
你显然也经历过这一点。
For me, the best thing about hosting a podcast is I have an excuse to learn about anything I want from almost anyone I want, and I get to call that part of my job.
对我来说，主持播客的最好的事情是我有借口从几乎任何我想要的人那里了解我想要的任何东西，我可以把这称为我工作的一部分。
And so I feel like having that built-in mechanism for learning means ideas could come at any moment.
所以我觉得拥有这种内置的学习机制意味着想法可以随时出现。
The filtering process for me, it's evolved over the last few years.
对我来说，过滤过程是在过去几年中不断发展的。
What I do now is, let's say I'm starting a new book.
我现在要做的是，假设我正在开始一本新书。
I'll write a draft of the first chapter, and I send it to five to eight people whose judgment I trust.
我将写出第一章的草稿，然后将其发送给我信任其判断力的五到八个人。
And by design, some of those people are in my field.
按照设计，其中一些人属于我的领域。
They're deep-seated in organizational psychology.
它们在组织心理学中根深蒂固。
Others are very far outside, but curious about the topics I'm interested in.
其他人虽然在很远的地方，但对我感兴趣的话题感到好奇。
And I ask them for a zero to 10 score.
我要求他们打 0 到 10 分。
This is something I learned to do as a springboard diver, where I would take off, and I'm doing a few flips or twists, and I think my dive is good, but I can't see it because I'm hurtling in midair, and everything's a blur.
这是我作为一名跳板潜水员学会做的事情，我会在那里起飞，然后做一些翻转或扭转，我认为我的潜水很好，但我看不到它，因为我在半空中飞驰，一切都是模糊的。
And so I have to rely on my coach to tell me if it was any good.
所以我必须依靠我的教练来告诉我这是否有好处。
I feel like creative work is the same way.
我觉得创意工作也是如此。
You're too close to it to know how the audience is going to react to it.
你离它太近了，无法知道观众会如何反应。
And yes, you don't want to create it just for the audience, but at the end of the day, you want it to be interesting or useful to them.
是的，您不想仅仅为观众创建它，但最终，您希望它对他们来说有趣或有用。
So I ask for the zero to 10, and no one ever says 10.
所以我要求从 0 到 10，但没有人说 10。
And then I use that as a calibration mechanism.
然后我用它作为校准机制。
So if everybody's in the seven or eight range, I know that I'm onto something promising, and now I need to refine it.
因此，如果每个人都在七或八范围内，我知道我正在做一些有前途的事情，现在我需要完善它。
If I get a bunch of twos, threes, three and a halves, I either need to rethink the idea or dramatically rewrite how I'm positioning it.
如果我得到一堆二、三、三半，我要么需要重新思考这个想法，要么戏剧性地重写我的定位方式。
And I think one of the mistakes a lot of people make is they know they need feedback on their ideas.
我认为很多人犯的错误之一是他们知道他们的想法需要反馈。
They go to one or two people, and they start to feel a little bit defensive or threatened, and their ego gets involved, and then they don't ask for any more.
他们去找一两个人，他们开始感到有点防御或威胁，他们的自我介入，然后他们不再要求任何东西。
What they don't realize is it's actually less painful if you get more feedback.
他们没有意识到，如果你得到更多反馈，痛苦实际上会减轻一些。
Because when eight different people critique your work, you start to realize that a few of the comments that sort of bruise you a little bit were just idiosyncratic, and no one else cared about those issues.
因为当八个不同的人批评你的工作时，你开始意识到一些让你有点受伤的评论只是特殊的，而且没有其他人关心这些问题。
But then five people had the same problem?
但后来有五个人遇到了同样的问题？
You're like, "That is not taste.
你会说，“这不是品味。
That is a quality issue, and I've got to focus on that." And so it really helps to filter what are the revisions I need to make, what are the problems and complaints I need to pay attention to, versus what can I ignore, because maybe this product was not for that person.
这是一个质量问题，我必须关注这一点。”因此，它确实有助于过滤我需要做出哪些修改，我需要注意哪些问题和投诉，以及我可以忽略哪些内容，因为也许这个产品不适合那个人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm recalling when I was a postdoc, I had a manuscript fully prepared, and I worked in a laboratory where I didn't work on the same thing as my postdoc advisor.
我记得当我还是一名博士后时，我已经准备好了一份手稿，而且我在一个实验室工作，在那里我和我的博士后顾问从事的工作并不相同。
He was very gracious in letting me be the outlier.
他非常仁慈地让我成为局外人。
And he said, "Well, I don't know anything about this topic, so before you submit it to this frankly very prestigious journal, I'll be honest, you should probably go down the hall and hand it to so-and-so." I don't want to mention who it was because I'm still in the same department.
他说：“好吧，我对这个话题一无所知，所以在你把它提交给这家坦率地说非常有声望的期刊之前，我说实话，你可能应该去大厅把它交给某某人。”我不想提及是谁，因为我还在同一个部门。
And I gave it to him, this individual, and he looked at it and he said, "Yeah, it looks interesting, but I don't think there's going to be a whole lot of interest in this.
我把它给了他，这个人，他看了看，然后说：“是的，它看起来很有趣，但我认为人们不会对此产生很大的兴趣。
It's just not..." And I was like, "No way.
这不是……”我当时想，“不可能。
I think this is really cool." But I was pretty dismayed, so I was like, "Oh, gosh.
我认为这真的很酷。”但我非常沮丧，所以我想，“哦，天哪。
So what do I do?" So I went back to my advisor, and thankfully, he's a bit of an iconoclast, and he said, "That's the best feedback you could've gotten.
那我该怎么办？”所以我回到我的顾问那里，谢天谢地，他有点反传统，他说：“这是你能得到的最好的反馈。
Definitely submit it to that particular journal." And I must say, that paper got accepted faster than any other paper.
一定要把它提交给那个特定的期刊。”我必须说，那篇论文比任何其他论文都被接受得更快。
I've never had an experience like that.
我从来没有过这样的经历。
It required some revisions, but I remember thinking, "Wow, what an unusual response," after having instructed me to go ask a more senior colleague, he was at that time assistant professor, and then to get the essentially negative response, and then to take that as like, "You should definitely send it out," really taught me a lesson that sometimes one needs to invert their action according to the negative feedback they get.
它需要一些修改，但我记得我想，“哇，这是一个多么不寻常的回应，”在指示我去询问一位更资深的同事之后，他当时是助理教授，然后得到基本上负面的回应，然后将其视为“你绝对应该将其发送出去”，这确实给了我一个教训，有时人们需要根据他们得到的负面反馈来改变他们的行为。
Not always, but that was an N of one, okay, so it shouldn't be extrapolated to too many circumstances.
并不总是如此，但那是 N 的一，好吧，所以不应该推断到太多的情况。
But it basically led me to not seek out feedback prior to submission of things terribly often.
但这基本上导致我在提交内容之前不会经常寻求反馈。
I check information, obviously, prior to podcasts.
显然，我在播客之前会检查信息。
I check the validity of the information in podcasts and papers.
我检查播客和论文中信息的有效性。
But it made me realize that people's opinions can be highly idiosyncratic and, in some cases, outright wrong, and really the opinion of the journal is what mattered most in terms of getting it accepted or not.
但这让我意识到，人们的观点可能非常独特，在某些情况下，甚至是完全错误的，而实际上，期刊的观点对于其是否被接受而言才是最重要的。
So you said give it to the greatest number of people, but if it's anything like comments on social media, there's a salience to negative comments.
所以你说把它给尽可能多的人，但如果是社交媒体上的评论之类的东西，负面评论就会很突出。
So how should we filter positive versus negative feedback?
那么我们应该如何过滤正面反馈和负面反馈呢？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Well, there's a meta-analysis here.
嗯，这里有一个荟萃分析。
This is Kluger and DeNisi looking at 100 years of feedback research, and they found that what drives the utility of feedback is not whether it's positive or negative.
这是 Kluger 和 DeNisi 对 100 年来反馈研究的回顾，他们发现推动反馈效用的因素并不是它是积极的还是消极的。
It's whether it focuses on the task or on the self.
这取决于它是否专注于任务或自我。
So if I tell you that your work is terrible, you're going to get defensive.
因此，如果我告诉你你的工作很糟糕，你就会采取防御措施。
If I tell you that your work is great, you're going to get complacent.
如果我告诉你你的工作很棒，你就会沾沾自喜。
If I tell you, "Here's the specific thing that I liked about your work," you're going to try to learn to repeat that.
如果我告诉你，“这是我喜欢你的工作的具体一点”，你就会试着学着重复这句话。
And if I tell you, "Here's the thing I didn't like," you're going to try to see if you can fix it.
如果我告诉你，“这是我不喜欢的事情”，你就会尝试看看是否可以解决它。
So I actually think we should worry less about whether the feedback is encouraging or discouraging and more about how do I make sure that I get input that's going to allow me to learn from my strengths and also overcome my weaknesses?
所以我实际上认为我们应该少担心反馈是令人鼓舞还是令人沮丧，而更多地关心我如何确保我获得的意见能够让我从自己的优势中学习并克服自己的弱点？
And actually, one of the things I've learned recently is there's some, I would say, a growing body of evidence at this point that asking for feedback is not the best way to get people to help you.
事实上，我最近学到的一件事是，我想说，目前有越来越多的证据表明，寻求反馈并不是让人们帮助你的最佳方式。
Because when you ask for feedback, you end up getting two groups of people.
因为当你寻求反馈时，你最终会得到两组人。
You get cheerleaders, and you get critics.
你会得到啦啦队，也会得到批评者。
And cheerleaders are basically applauding your best self.
啦啦队基本上是在为最好的自己鼓掌。
Critics are attacking your worst self.
批评者正在攻击你最糟糕的自己。
What you want is a coach, which is somebody who helps you become a better version of yourself.
你想要的是一个教练，一个能帮助你成为更好的自己的人。
And the way you get people to coach you is not to say, "Give me feedback," because they will then look at the past and tell you what you screwed up or what you did right.
让人们指导你的方法不是说“给我反馈”，因为他们会回顾过去并告诉你你搞砸了什么或你做对了什么。
What you want is to say, "Can you give me advice for next time?" And then they look at the future, and they'll give you either a note on something to repeat or something to correct.
你想说的是，“下次你能给我一些建议吗？”然后他们展望未来，他们会给你一个关于需要重复的内容或需要纠正的内容的注释。
And this is such a subtle shift, but it can make a big difference.
这是一个如此微妙的转变，但它可以产生很大的变化。
Andrew, one of the things I guess I found myself applying this to a lot is after giving speeches.
安德鲁，我想我发现自己经常应用这一点的一件事是在发表演讲之后。
I used to get offstage and say, "I would love some feedback." And you get back a bunch of, "Oh, I really enjoyed that." Thanks.
我常常下台说：“我希望得到一些反馈。”然后你会得到一堆，“哦，我真的很喜欢那个。”谢谢。
What do I do with that information?
我该如何处理这些信息？
I'm trying to learn how to get better.
我正在努力学习如何变得更好。
And when I shift the question to say, "What's the one thing I could do better next time?" It's like, "Oh, don't open with a joke.
当我将问题转移到“下次我可以做得更好的一件事是什么？”时就像是，“哦，不要以笑话开头。
The audience couldn't tell you were joking." Frequently, it's, "Give me a little bit more of a through line.
观众看不出你在开玩笑。”通常，它是，“给我多一点贯穿路线。
You focused a lot on a bunch of interesting points, but I lost the connective tissue." And those actionable suggestions are much more likely to come when you just ask for a tip as opposed to an evaluation.
你把注意力集中在一堆有趣的点上，但我失去了结缔组织。”当你只是要求小费而不是评估时，这些可行的建议更有可能出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, that's so good.
哦，那太好了。
I think I'm going to just pause for a second.
我想我要暂停一下。
I've never taken a pause on-- I've taken occasional pause, to be honest, but they're very rare, as the audience knows.
我从来没有停顿过——老实说，我偶尔会停顿一下，但正如观众所知，这种情况非常罕见。
Oh, that's just gazillion-dollar advice, because I think that everyone has an ego.
哦，这只是价值不菲的建议，因为我认为每个人都有自我。
We all want to perform well.
我们都想表现出色。
We'd like to perform better over time.
随着时间的推移，我们希望表现得更好。
And negative feedback hurts, and it can hurt a little or a lot, depending on how defensive we are, but a tool like you just described to remove some of that defensive armor that we all have and actually let the information in in a way that's constructive is really great.
负面反馈会造成伤害，它可能会伤害一点或很多，这取决于我们的防御程度，但是像你刚才描述的这样的工具可以消除我们所有人都拥有的一些防御盔甲，并实际上以一种建设性的方式让信息进入，这真的很棒。
What you described, I think, is a way to create constructive criticism, but the constructive part is really coming from within-
我认为你所描述的是一种创造建设性批评的方式，但建设性的部分实际上来自内部——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as opposed to saying, "I'd like some constructive criticism," and then hoping that the criticism is actually constructive.
而不是说“我想要一些建设性的批评”，然后希望这些批评实际上是建设性的。
So you're taking control over the process in a healthy way, in a benevolent way.
所以你正在以健康、仁慈的方式控制这个过程。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
That's the goal, and I think the big question that comes up for a lot of people at this point is, okay, so I get somebody to give me advice, but it might still sting.
这就是目标，我认为此时很多人面临的一个大问题是，好吧，所以我找人给我建议，但这可能仍然会刺痛。
How do I get better at taking it constructively?
我怎样才能更好地建设性地对待它？
And I think probably my favorite technique on this I learned from Sheila Heen.
我想我最喜欢的技巧可能是我从 Sheila Heen 那里学到的。
She calls it the second score.
她称之为第二分数。
And the idea is that when somebody gives you a piece of criticism, that's your first score.
这个想法是，当有人给你批评时，那就是你的第一个分数。
So let's say, in my world, they gave me a three and a half, and I want to know how I can do better next time.
假设，在我的世界里，他们给了我三分半，我想知道下次我怎样才能做得更好。
How do I get myself to focus on that?
我怎样才能让自己专注于此？
What I do is say, "I want to get a 10 for how well I took the three and a half," and that's the second score.
我所做的就是说，“我想因为我在三个半球上的表现而得到 10 分”，这是第二个分数。
I want to evaluate myself on how well I took the first score.
我想根据我的第一个分数来评估自己。
I think about this almost every day.
我几乎每天都在思考这个问题。
Actually, can I tell you a quick story?
事实上，我可以告诉你一个简短的故事吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
So when I was right out of my doctorate, I got asked to teach a motivation class for Air Force generals and colonels.
因此，当我刚刚获得博士学位时，我被要求为空军将军和上校教授励志课程。
I was 25, I think.
我想我当时25岁。
25, 26.
25、26。
They're all twice my age.
他们的年龄都是我的两倍。
They've got thousands of flying hours.
他们有数千小时的飞行时间。
They've got billion-dollar budgets.
他们有数十亿美元的预算。
They've got-- Well, you know this community well.
他们——嗯，你很了解这个社区。
Their nicknames are Striker and Sand Dune.
他们的绰号是前锋和沙丘。
And I was extremely intimidated.
我非常害怕。
So I walked in there, and I thought I had to impress them, and I started talking about my credentials and all my research experience, and the feedback at the end of the four-hour session was brutal.
所以我走进那里，我想我必须给他们留下深刻的印象，我开始谈论我的资历和我所有的研究经验，在四个小时的会议结束时的反馈是残酷的。
I remember reading the feedback forms, and one person had written, "More knowledge in the audience than on the podium." I was like, "True.
我记得读过反馈表，其中一个人写道：“观众中的知识比讲台上的知识更多。”我当时想，“是的。
I can't argue with that." And then another wrote, "I gained nothing from this session, but I trust the instructor gained useful insight." And that was devastating.
我无法反驳这一点。”另一位网友写道：“我从这次课程中没有得到任何收获，但我相信讲师获得了有用的见解。”那是毁灭性的。
I was like, "I would really like to transform into an actual bear and hibernate for the next four months, and then maybe I'll come out of a hole ready to hear this." I didn't have that option.
我当时想，“我真的很想变成一只真正的熊，在接下来的四个月里冬眠，然后也许我会从洞里出来，准备好听到这个消息。”我没有那个选择。
I had committed to teach a second session a week later.
我已承诺一周后教授第二堂课。
So all I could do was figure out, how am I going to hear this feedback and really take it seriously?
所以我所能做的就是弄清楚，我如何才能听到这些反馈并真正认真对待它？
And I guess I applied a version of the second score, and I said, "All right.
我想我应用了第二个乐谱的一个版本，我说：“好吧。
There's some generals that are going to come back and see me again, and I've got to prove to them that I was open to feedback." And one of the things I heard loud and clear was that they valued humility, and I had led with too much confidence, which was just insecurity masked.
有些将军会再次回来见我，我必须向他们证明我愿意接受反馈。”我清楚地听到的一件事是，他们重视谦逊，而我在领导时过于自信，这只是不安全感的掩盖。
And so I thought, "Okay, how do I change the equation?" And walked in, looked at the room, and I said, "I know what you're all thinking right now.
所以我想，“好吧，我该如何改变这个方程呢？”走进去，看着房间，我说：“我知道你们现在在想什么。
What could I possibly learn from a professor who's 12 years old?" Dead silence.
我能从一个 12 岁的教授身上学到什么？”死一般的寂静。
I'm like, "Oh, no. This is going to go horribly wrong." And then, one of the guys in the audience jumps in, and he's like, "Oh, that's ridiculous.
我想，“哦，不。这会变得非常错误。”然后，观众中的一个人跳了进来，他说：“哦，这太荒谬了。
You've got to be at least 13." Everybody started laughing.
你必须至少年满 13 岁。”每个人都开始笑。
It broke the ice, and I think what I was trying to do was to take myself off the pedestal and say, "Look, I heard your feedback.
它打破了僵局，我想我想做的就是让自己脱离基座并说：“听着，我听到了你的反馈。
You told me that you didn't think I had anything to teach you, and I've got to acknowledge that right up front and be open to the fact that that's true.
你告诉我，你认为我没有什么可以教你的，我必须首先承认这一点，并对事实持开放态度。
And so I want to come in here and learn from you, and I want to see if I can curate a conversation where we all end up learning." And the feedback was night and day different afterward.
所以我想来这里向你们学习，我想看看我是否可以组织一次对话，让我们最终都能学习。”之后的反馈是昼夜不同的。
One person wrote, "Although junior in experience, the professor dealt with the evidence in an interesting way." I was like, "All right, I'll take it." And there's something really powerful about saying, "Look, I can't change the fact that they hated my session.
一个人写道：“尽管教授经验不足，但他处理证据的方式很有趣。”我当时想，“好吧，我会接受的。”说“听着，我无法改变他们讨厌我的课程这一事实”，这是非常有力的。
What I can do is convince them that I was motivated to learn from their criticism."
我能做的就是让他们相信我有动力从他们的批评中学习。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this concept of the second score, and thank you for sharing that story.
我喜欢第二个乐谱的概念，感谢您分享这个故事。
I think very often we hear about people like you who, if people didn't catch the math in there, you were a PhD by age 25.
我想我们经常听说像你这样的人，如果人们没有听懂其中的数学知识，那么你在 25 岁时就已经获得了博士学位。
And as far as I know, the youngest tenured professor at Penn at 28.
据我所知，宾夕法尼亚大学最年轻的终身教授只有 28 岁。
So these are outrageously impressive metrics of accomplishment.
所以这些都是令人印象深刻的成就指标。
But for you to share a story about a less than optimal performance and how you adjusted to it and the incorporation of the second score that you're referring to, I think is really appreciated because I think that as much as we hear, "Oh, Jordan took many more free throws," and everyone just thinks about all the ones he made.
但是对于你分享一个关于不太理想的表现以及你如何调整它以及纳入你所指的第二个得分的故事，我认为我真的很感激，因为我认为我们听到的都是“哦，乔丹罚球次数更多”，而每个人都只是想到他所做的所有罚球。
People think about all the ones he made.
人们会想到他所做的一切。
That's the way the game works.
这就是游戏的运作方式。
That's the way the mind works, I should say.
我应该说，这就是头脑的运作方式。
So I appreciate that you've fleshed it out with a personal example.
所以我很感激你用一个个人例子来充实它。
I, too, would want to turn into a bear and disappear.
我也想变成一只熊然后消失。
But I think that it's really impressive what you did, and it makes me think that the second score of getting a 10 at bringing the three and a half up, right, as it were, is really about turning a score into a verb process.
但我认为你所做的确实令人印象深刻，这让我认为第二个得分为 10 分，使 3 分半上升，对，可以说，实际上是将得分转变为动词过程。
Over and over again, as I do this podcast and as I've taught in the classroom, what I keep coming back to is this idea that we should be focusing more on verbs and less on nouns, that we love to name things and categorize them.
一次又一次，当我做这个播客以及我在课堂上授课时，我不断回想起这样一个想法：我们应该更多地关注动词而不是名词，我们喜欢给事物命名并对它们进行分类。
But when we start living life through a lot of verb processes, so instead of being fit, or running as a thing, we really think about just running, right?
但是，当我们开始通过许多动词过程来生活时，我们真正考虑的不是健身或跑步，而是跑步，对吧？
It becomes less daunting, and we accomplish far more.
它变得不那么令人畏惧，我们取得了更多成就。
But the idea that, and there are mathematical models of this, I'm sure, but where you're basically talking about an integral, right, as opposed to just some value.
但我确信，并且有这样的数学模型，但你基本上是在谈论积分，对吧，而不只是某个值。
You're talking about the slope of the line.
你说的是直线的斜率。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
So you're a three and a half.
所以你已经三岁半了。
How are you going to get to a 10?
你要怎样才能达到10分？
Gosh, that's a huge gap.
天哪，这差距太大了。
And you're dealing with being back on your heels psychologically from getting all this battering feedback from these highly accomplished individuals, all these accomplishments and literally wearing them presumably on their body for you to see.
从这些成就卓著的人那里得到所有这些令人震惊的反馈，所有这些成就，并且实际上将它们戴在他们的身上让你看到，你正在处理心理上的后跟。
And it's really about taking control of the slope of that line from the three onward, and it's really a forward-looking perspective.
这实际上是从三号线开始控制这条线的斜率，这确实是一个前瞻性的视角。
So I don't think we're being unduly psychological here or analytic.
所以我认为我们在这里并没有过度的心理或分析。
I think it's really about taking a moment state And a noun and turning it into a verb.
我认为这实际上是关于将一个时刻状态和一个名词变成一个动词。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah, I think that's right.
是的，我认为这是对的。
I'm reminded of the great philosopher, Homer Simpson, who said that verbing weirds language.
我想起了伟大的哲学家荷马·辛普森（Homer Simpson），他说过，动词使语言变得怪异。
So it's harder to talk about-
所以更难谈论了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it
喜欢它
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
...
...
this stuff in verbs.
动词中的这个东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I swear I didn't steal it from The Simpsons, but if it came from Homer Simpson, I'm all for it.
我发誓我不是从《辛普森一家》那里偷来的，但如果它来自荷马·辛普森，我完全赞成。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
You have to.
你必须这样做。
That's-
那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Small brain
脑子小
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
...
...
completely credible.
完全可信。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Small brain, but given the size of his brain, and people have seen the image, fairly robust knowledge.
脑容量虽小，但考虑到他脑容量的大小，以及人们所看到的图像，知识还算丰富。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
No, I think you're onto something.
不，我认为你正在做某事。
I think verbs are active, and we're drawn to them.
我认为动词是活跃的，我们被它们所吸引。
I think, yeah, a lot of times people review their past work and they just end up shaming an earlier version of themselves, and they wallow in rumination.
我想，是的，很多时候人们回顾自己过去的工作，最终只是羞辱早期的自己，然后陷入沉思。
And what we want to try to do in that situation, which is easier said than done, is to say, all right, the purpose of getting feedback or advice is not to shame my past self, it's to educate my future self.
在这种情况下，我们想要尝试做的事情，说起来容易做起来难，就是说，好吧，获得反馈或建议的目的不是羞辱过去的自己，而是教育未来的自己。
Which I think is very connected to a lot of the work on growth mindset that you've been talking about, and there's been a firestorm of controversy around can we teach growth mindset in schools lately.
我认为这与您一直在谈论的许多关于成长心态的工作密切相关，最近围绕我们是否可以在学校教授成长心态引发了激烈的争论。
And I think what that has underscored for me is, look, you can't expect someone to listen to one podcast episode or go through one workshop and magically believe that they're capable of learning anything at any moment.
我认为这对我来说强调的是，看，你不能指望有人听一集播客或参加一个研讨会并神奇地相信他们有能力在任何时刻学习任何东西。
This is something we have to actively work on on a daily basis, and part of doing that, exactly as you said, is thinking about this loop and saying, all right, the person that I'm competing with is my past self, and I want to get a little bit better today than I was yesterday.
这是我们每天必须积极努力的事情，而做到这一点的一部分，正如你所说，就是思考这个循环，然后说，好吧，与我竞争的人是过去的自己，我希望今天比昨天更好一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, I think along the lines of growth mindset, obviously we both know Carol Dweck and respect her tremendously, and I realize there is some controversy now around how readily one can teach growth mindset or incorporate growth mindset.
是的，我认为沿着成长心态的思路，显然我们都认识卡罗尔·德韦克并且非常尊重她，我意识到现在对于如何容易地教授成长心态或融入成长心态存在一些争议。
My understanding, and I'd love to know your thoughts on this, is that when the Dweck work is combined with some of the Ali Crum work, that is growth mindset is combined with a knowledge, just a basic and true understanding that stress and the feelings of anxiety and tension can actually be performance-enhancing.
我的理解，并且我很想知道你对此的想法，是当德韦克的工作与阿里·克拉姆的一些工作结合起来时，即成长心态与知识相结合，只是一个基本而真实的理解，即压力以及焦虑和紧张的感觉实际上可以提高绩效。
When those two things are combined, I think this is the work of David Yeager and colleagues at UT Austin, that indeed growth mindset becomes more visible in our mindsets and performance.
当这两件事结合起来时，我认为这是大卫·耶格尔和德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校同事的工作，成长型思维确实在我们的心态和表现中变得更加明显。
And are there other aspects to growth mindset and other mindsets that are now being woven into that framework that can be helpful?
成长心态和其他心态是否有其他方面正在融入该框架，可以有所帮助？
Because I know, gosh, if ever there was a great name for a area of psychology, growth mindset tells you everything you want, everything you need, and everything you sort of need to know in just the name.
因为我知道，天哪，如果心理学领域有一个伟大的名字的话，成长心态就能通过这个名字告诉你你想要的一切、你需要的一切，以及你需要知道的一切。
But we all find it difficult to implement.
但我们都觉得执行起来很困难。
Just telling myself I'm not as good at something as I could be yet, it sounds great, but in moments of receiving feedback that's harsh, sometimes it's hard to access.
只是告诉自己，我在某件事上还没有达到应有的水平，这听起来不错，但在收到严厉的反馈时，有时很难接受。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah, it is.
是的，确实如此。
I think, so the latest, there's a McNamara et al.
我想，最近，麦克纳马拉等人。
meta-analysis, and then I think that camp versus the Carol and David camp have very different views on how big the effects are.
荟萃分析，然后我认为阵营与卡罗尔和大卫阵营对于影响有多大有非常不同的看法。
But I think one thing they seem to agree on is growth mindset is more important in circumstances where people are more likely to need it.
但我认为他们似乎同意的一件事是，在人们更有可能需要成长心态的情况下，成长心态更为重要。
So if you think about, for example, kids who are impoverished or marginalized communities, the message that you are capable of evolving your skills to the point that something you're bad at today you could be good at next year, is really important when you've never heard that before.
因此，例如，如果你考虑一下贫困或边缘化社区的孩子，那么你有能力发展你的技能，以至于你今天不擅长的事情明年可能会擅长，这一信息非常重要，因为你以前从未听说过这一点。
And when you don't have a single person believing in you.
当你没有一个人相信你的时候。
I think where we're often missing the boat is we think, all right, I'm going to instill this idea in a person's head, and my work is done.
我认为我们经常错过的地方是我们认为，好吧，我要把这个想法灌输到一个人的头脑中，我的工作就完成了。
And we know that the context around you really matters.
我们知道您周围的环境确实很重要。
So actually, Carol's done some research showing that growth mindset is more likely to have an impact when your classroom culture, and your teacher, right, has the belief that kids are capable of learning and growing, that your starting ability is not fixed in any subject.
事实上，卡罗尔做了一些研究，表明当你的课堂文化和你的老师相信孩子有学习和成长的能力，并且你的起始能力在任何科目上都不是固定的时，成长心态更有可能产生影响。
And I think probably for all of us as individuals, what that means is we need to think about the microenvironment that we put ourselves in.
我认为对于我们所有人来说，这意味着我们需要考虑我们自己所处的微环境。
I guess one of the things I've been thinking a lot about lately is scaffolding, and the idea that when you're trying to improve at something, you don't need a permanent teacher necessarily.
我想我最近一直在思考的一件事就是脚手架，以及当你试图改进某件事时，你不一定需要一个固定的老师的想法。
You don't need one mentor guiding you for nine years.
你不需要一位导师指导你九年。
What you need is somebody who can give you the temporary support that allows you to scale to a new height, just like a scaffold would on a building.
你需要的是一个可以为你提供临时支持的人，让你能够攀登到新的高度，就像建筑物上的脚手架一样。
And in learning theory, basically the idea behind scaffolding is we're going to initially give you the support you need to solve a problem, and then we're going to slowly remove the support so that you learn to do it on your own.
在学习理论中，基本上，脚手架背后的想法是，我们将首先为您提供解决问题所需的支持，然后我们将慢慢取消支持，以便您学会自己做。
And I think that those kinds of scaffolds are often missing.
我认为这种脚手架经常缺失。
So we instill the growth mindset, like I've got this belief in my head, but I don't know what I need to do to put that belief into action.
因此，我们灌输成长心态，就像我脑子里有这种信念一样，但我不知道我需要做什么才能将这种信念付诸行动。
And that's where, I guess that to me is we have to go beyond mindset.
我想这就是我们必须超越思维方式的地方。
We have to think about how do we put people in a context that allows them to put their beliefs into practice.
我们必须考虑如何将人们置于一个允许他们将信仰付诸实践的环境中。
You were asking me what else do we need to support growth mindset and make it effective, right?
您问我我们还需要什么来支持成长心态并使其有效，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We know people learn what growth mindset is.
我们知道人们了解什么是成长心态。
It's the idea that you're not as good at something yet.
这是你在某件事上还不太擅长的想法。
Okay, terrific, but it's very hard to implement in real-time.
好吧，太棒了，但是实时实施非常困难。
There are, I have to presume, additional tools that one can bolster the growth mindset with, make it more accessible, and benefit from it.
我必须假设，还有其他工具可以用来增强成长心态，使其更容易获得并从中受益。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes.
是的。
So Justin Berg and Amy Wrzesniewski and I studied this, actually.
事实上，贾斯汀·伯格（Justin Berg）、艾米·沃泽斯涅夫斯基（Amy Wrzesniewski）和我研究了这个。
We were looking at growth mindset at work.
我们正在研究工作中的成长心态。
And Justin's, well, he's at Stanford.
贾斯汀，嗯，他在斯坦福大学。
I don't know if you've met him yet.
我不知道你是否见过他。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have not.
我没有。
But big place-
不过地方很大——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes, I figured as much
是的，我也这么想
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you'll be on the list soon if-
你很快就会出现在名单上，如果-
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Brilliant creativity researcher, and Amy just joined us at Wharton, and has fundamentally changed the way that I think about ideas in the way that she studied how we can shape our context and just done pathbreaking work there.
艾米是一位才华横溢的创造力研究员，刚刚加入沃顿商学院，她研究了我们如何塑造我们的环境，并在那里做了开创性的工作，从根本上改变了我思考想法的方式。
And we were interested in growth mindset, and we designed an intervention where people could learn growth mindset at work.
我们对成长心态很感兴趣，我们设计了一种干预措施，让人们可以在工作中学习成长心态。
So we taught them to think about how their skills were malleable, how they could stretch their knowledge into new areas, and we found that teaching them that was not enough to boost their happiness or their performance.
因此，我们教他们思考他们的技能如何具有可塑性，如何将他们的知识扩展到新的领域，但我们发现教他们这些并不足以提高他们的幸福感或表现。
What we needed to also do was give them a growth mindset, not just about themselves, but also about their jobs.
我们还需要做的是给他们一种成长心态，不仅是关于他们自己，也是关于他们的工作。
In other words, to teach them that your job is a set of flexible building blocks.
换句话说，告诉他们你的工作是一组灵活的构建模块。
That you've got a whole bunch of tasks that make up your job.
你有一大堆任务构成你的工作。
Some of those are things to do, others might be interactions that you need to have.
其中一些是要做的事情，另一些可能是您需要进行的互动。
And if you break down your job into all these tasks, you might have some tasks that you want to accentuate and make a bigger part of your job, others that you want to try to subtract, others that you might swap with a colleague.
如果你将你的工作分解为所有这些任务，你可能会想要强调一些任务并使其成为你工作的更大一部分，有些你想要尝试减少，还有一些你可能会与同事交换。
And a lot of people, it turns out, think their jobs are fixed by their job descriptions, but in fact, you have a ton of opportunity to say, "Wait a minute.
事实证明，很多人认为他们的工作是由工作描述决定的，但事实上，你有很多机会说：“等一下。
There's a strength I have, but I'm not using it right now.
我有一种力量，但我现在没有使用它。
Is there a way we can bring that into my work?" And so, in these couple experiments we did, when we randomly assigned people to learn both that their jobs were malleable and that their skills were malleable, they got a sustainable boost to their happiness that lasted at least six months.
有没有办法让我们把它带入我的工作中？”因此，在我们所做的这几个实验中，当我们随机分配人们学习他们的工作是可塑的以及他们的技能是可塑的时，他们的幸福感得到了持续至少六个月的可持续提升。
There was no cost to their performance, meaning you could redesign your own job to be more enjoyable without a drop in the effectiveness of your contributions to your workplace.
他们的绩效没有任何成本，这意味着您可以重新设计自己的工作，使其变得更加愉快，而不会降低您对工作场所贡献的有效性。
And I think what I came away from that research realizing is, it's not enough to just say, "Well, I can get better.
我认为我从这项研究中意识到，仅仅说“好吧，我可以变得更好”是不够的。
I can improve." Because very often, you feel like your environment is limited.
我可以改进。”因为很多时候，你会觉得自己的环境受到限制。
Like, "Great.
就像，“太棒了。
Yeah, I can grow, but I'm stuck in a dead-end job." And so what we need to do there is open up the opportunity for people to innovate on their own job description, and then growth mindset can begin to have an impact.
是的，我可以成长，但我却陷入了一份没有出路的工作。”因此，我们需要做的是为人们提供在自己的工作描述上进行创新的机会，然后成长心态就可以开始产生影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
It sounds a bit like adding a S to growth mindset.
这听起来有点像在成长心态中加上一个“S”。
So it's not growth mindset, it's growth mindsets.
所以这不是成长心态，而是成长心态。
Because earlier you mentioned that in the classroom environment, if the teacher adopts a growth mindset-
因为刚才你提到在课堂环境中，如果老师采取成长心态——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as well as the students, well, then you have a culture of growth mindset.
以及学生，那么你就有了成长心态的文化。
So it's the interconnectedness of this and the context in which the individual's growth mindset exists.
因此，这与个人成长心态存在的背景是相互关联的。
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Well put.
说得好。
Yeah.
是的。
We ended up calling it dual mindset.
我们最终称之为双重心态。
But I think making it a plural is good because I have this image of you put a person in a cage and then tell them they're capable of growing.
但我认为用复数形式很好，因为我有这样的形象：你把一个人关在笼子里，然后告诉他们他们有能力成长。
They're still stuck in a cage.
他们仍然被困在笼子里。
And so we need to give them a chance to bust through those walls.
因此，我们需要给他们一个冲破这些墙壁的机会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super important.
超级重要。
I hate to take us back to an earlier topic, but there's something that I meant to ask you that I didn't, and I'm absolutely needing to ask you, which is your recent work, or recent-ish work, it was a few years back now, and you're so prolific that I have to call it a few years back.
我不想让我们回到之前的话题，但有件事我本来想问你，但我没有，我绝对需要问你，哪一个是你最近的作品，或者是最近的作品，那是几年前的事了，你是如此多产，我不得不在几年前打电话。
The relationship between intrinsic motivation and performance on other tasks.
内在动机与其他任务绩效之间的关系。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And the reason I ask this is several-fold.
我问这个的原因有几个。
I did two episodes of the podcast on ADHD, and one of the things that I learned in talking to experts on ADHD, people with ADHD, as well as looking at some of the novel treatments, everything from behavioral to prescription drug to even nutrition-based, was that kids and adults with clinically diagnosed ADHD are actually terrific at paying attention to things that they really enjoy or that they're super interested in.
我制作了两集关于多动症的播客，在与多动症专家、多动症患者交谈以及研究一些新颖的治疗方法（从行为疗法到处方药，甚至基于营养的疗法）时，我学到的一件事是，患有临床诊断多动症的儿童和成人实际上非常善于关注他们真正喜欢或超级感兴趣的事物。
So clearly, they have the capacity.
很明显，他们有能力。
It's just that they have deficits, if you will, in attending to things that are less exciting to them, less intriguing to them.
如果你愿意的话，只是他们在关注那些对他们来说不那么令人兴奋、不那么有趣的事情方面存在缺陷。
So if I recall correctly, you have a publication that explored the relationship between intrinsic motivation and performance in other stuff.
所以，如果我没记错的话，你们有一本出版物探讨了内在动机和其他方面的表现之间的关系。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And one of the major conclusions was that having a deep interest in one thing might not be the best condition for performing well at other, less interesting tasks.
主要结论之一是，对一件事有浓厚的兴趣可能并不是在其他不太有趣的任务中表现出色的最佳条件。
Could you tell us about that study?
您能给我们介绍一下这项研究吗？
What motivated you to carry out that study, and what some of the major takeaways were?
是什么促使您进行这项研究？主要收获是什么？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah, definitely.
是的，绝对是。
You summarized it really well.
你总结得真好。
I think the original impetus, so this was another project with Jihae Shin, and Jihae came to me wanting to study intrinsic motivation.
我认为最初的动力，所以这是与 Jihae Shin 的另一个项目，Jihae 来找我想要研究内在动机。
And we were talking about, what do we know about intrinsic motivation, and what are the gaps in our knowledge?
我们讨论的是，我们对内在动机了解多少，我们的知识差距是什么？
And one thing that has always bothered me is when psychologists study something that sounds positive, and they only study the benefits of it.
一直困扰我的一件事是，当心理学家研究一些听起来积极的东西时，他们只研究它的好处。
I'm like, "There's no such thing as an unmitigated good." Right?
我想，“世界上没有绝对的好东西。”正确的？
All sort of enjoyable experiences have costs.
各种愉快的经历都是有代价的。
All unpleasant experiences can have benefits.
所有不愉快的经历都会有好处。
We need to fill out this two by two of good thing, bad thing, good outcome, bad outcome.
我们需要两两填写好事、坏事、好结果、坏结果。
And so my challenge to her was, "Can you show me the dark side of intrinsic motivation?" And she came back, and she said, "What if there's a cost of loving a task leading you to hate a task that you don't like even more than you did before?" I was like, "Oh, that's an interesting idea." It tracks with the basic psychology of contrast effects, where if you eat something delicious, then your least favorite food tastes a little bit worse afterward.
所以我对她的挑战是：“你能告诉我内在动机的阴暗面吗？”她回来后说：“如果热爱一项任务的成本导致你比以前更讨厌一项你不喜欢的任务怎么办？”我当时想，“哦，这是一个有趣的想法。”它遵循对比效应的基本心理学，如果你吃了一些美味的东西，那么你最不喜欢的食物之后味道会变得更糟。
And so I said, "Let's study this." So, she ended up getting data from people at work, and then we also designed an experiment.
所以我说：“让我们研究一下这个。”所以，她最终从工作人员那里获取了数据，然后我们也设计了一个实验。
And sure enough, the more passionate you are on task one, the more your performance suffers if task two is really boring.
果然，你对任务一越热情，如果任务二真的很无聊，你的表现就会受到越严重的影响。
And I guess what this did for me is it made me think differently about task sequencing.
我想这对我来说是让我对任务排序有了不同的思考。
I used to wake up in the morning and do my most interesting task first, and then the grading was hell.
我过去常常早上醒来，先做我最有趣的任务，然后评分就很糟糕了。
And what I do now is I start with a moderately interesting task.
我现在所做的就是从一项还算有趣的任务开始。
It's a little bit of a warm-up for me, and then I have an exciting one to look forward to.
这对我来说只是一个热身，然后我就有一个令人兴奋的期待。
And if I do have a task that's boring but important, I think the performance is going to suffer less.
如果我确实有一项无聊但重要的任务，我认为性能会受到更少的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
I normally don't ask about morning routines and how one structures their day, because it's highly individual.
我通常不会询问早上的例行公事以及人们如何安排他们的一天，因为这是高度个人化的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I completely agree.
我完全同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And it depends on whether or not people have kids and they're ...
这取决于人们是否有孩子，而他们......
pets and what other.
宠物和其他什么。
But I'll just share with you a brief anecdote.
但我只想与大家分享一个简短的轶事。
I have a friend who's a very accomplished musician and has been for several decades now, and he told me that he has a practice of after he gets off stage, and he's like stadium sell-out level musician, has been for a long time and shows no signs of stopping, just incredible, but a very down-to-earth person.
我有一个朋友，他是一位非常有成就的音乐家，已经几十年了，他告诉我，他下台后就有一种练习，他就像体育场售空级别的音乐家，已经练习了很长一段时间，而且没有停止的迹象，只是令人难以置信，但却是一个非常脚踏实地的人。
And he said one of the first things he does when he gets offstage is to go do some menial task.
他说，他下台后做的第一件事就是去做一些琐事。
I thought, "There's no way that's true," but I've known his wife since college, and she verified that statement.
我想，“这不可能是真的”，但我从大学起就认识他的妻子，她证实了这一说法。
I was like, "What sorts of menial tasks are you talking about?" He's like, "Oh, like cleaning up some of the cans and things that are there.
我当时想，“你在谈论什么样的琐事？”他说，“哦，比如清理一些罐子和那里的东西。
Maybe even cleaning a toilet at a venue." And I thought, "No chance." But it turns out to be true.
甚至可能在某个场所打扫厕所。”我想：“没有机会。”但事实证明这是真的。
And I said, "What's this about?
我说：“这是怎么回事？
Is this about humility?" He said, "Well, maybe a little bit," but he said it actually makes it a lot easier for him to return home and deal with the little things that just are out of scale with the experiences that he just had.
这就是谦虚吗？”他说，“嗯，也许有一点”，但他说这实际上让他更容易回家并处理与他刚刚经历的经历不相符的小事情。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
He's tapering in a way.
他在某种程度上正在逐渐变细。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I think.
我想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
First of all, I was so struck by the fact that he had created this process for himself so long ago, and he's also somebody who's maintained...
首先，我对他很久以前为自己创建这个过程感到非常震惊，而且他也是一个维护......
He's been in the same marriage for an extremely long time.
他已经在同一段婚姻中度过了很长一段时间。
He's extremely happy in that and his family.
他对此和他的家人感到非常高兴。
He's one of these people that seems to thrive in all domains of life.
他是那些似乎在生活的各个领域都蓬勃发展的人之一。
And I'm certain that he struggles in some domain of life because everybody does.
我确信他在生活的某些领域挣扎，因为每个人都是如此。
But it sounded to me like a very unusual practice, but it seems to relate to this, that he has this thing that he loves doing, playing music and performing in particular, and he's just 0.01% at doing that.
但这对我来说听起来是一种非常不寻常的做法，但这似乎与此相关，因为他有自己喜欢做的事情，尤其是演奏音乐和表演，而他只做到了 0.01%。
But then just bring himself back down to earth-
但然后让自己回到现实-
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
That's so interesting
太有趣了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because so much of life, and especially family life-
因为生活中有很多事情，尤其是家庭生活——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is like dealing with the schmutz and the inconvenience of everyday life.
就像处理日常生活中的麻烦和不便一样。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It actually sounds like what he's doing is he's resetting his frame of reference to say, "If I go right home, then the contrast between this high-octane experience I'm having, and sort of muddling through everyday life is going to be extreme.
事实上，听起来他正在做的事情就是重置他的参照系，说：“如果我直接回家，那么我所经历的这种高辛烷值的经历与日常生活中的混乱之间的对比将会是极端的。
If I do something really small, then family time is going to seem a lot bigger."
如果我做一些很小的事情，那么家庭时间就会显得更重要。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So I realize that I'm taking a bit of a leap from your study on intrinsic motivation and low performance in other domains.
所以我意识到我在你关于内在动机和其他领域低绩效的研究中取得了一些飞跃。
But to me, cleaning a toilet is boring for all the wrong reasons, right?
但对我来说，由于种种错误的原因，打扫厕所很无聊，对吧？
As you say.
正如你所说。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
You do not want that to be an exciting task.
您不希望这是一项令人兴奋的任务。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, and listen, if I had to do it for a living, I would, right?
不，听着，如果我必须以此为生，我会的，对吗？
And I would try and do as well as possible.
我会尽力做得最好。
But, right.
但是，对了。
So, well, I found that study to be particularly interesting because I think that these days we glorify high performance, even quote-unquote, peak performance, something we can talk about.
所以，嗯，我发现这项研究特别有趣，因为我认为现在我们颂扬高性能，甚至引用不引用，峰值性能，我们可以谈论的东西。
And we forget that, yes, oftentimes people who are ultra-high performers can afford to pay other people to do all the other stuff.
我们忘记了，是的，通常表现出色的人有能力付钱给其他人来做所有其他事情。
But I have to say, in knowing some ultra-high performers and in knowing some people in the billionaire bracket, there's a high incidence of mental health issues, frankly-
但我不得不说，在认识一些超高绩效人士和认识一些亿万富翁阶层的人时，坦率地说，心理健康问题的发生率很高——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and lack of satisfaction with life that maybe even comes from not having to do anything besides the things that you find most intrinsically rewarding.
对生活缺乏满足感，甚至可能是因为除了你认为最本质上有价值的事情之外，你不必做任何事情。
We all think that, "Oh, if I could, I would spend all day doing the things that I find most intrinsically rewarding." But maybe there's something about this push-pull.
我们都认为，“哦，如果可以的话，我会花一整天的时间做我认为最有价值的事情。”但也许这种推拉是有道理的。
We know the brain works in push-pull with almost everything, that having some experiences each day that are like, "Ugh, this thing again," do you think that heightens our level of satisfaction for the things we really enjoy?
我们知道大脑几乎对所有事物都以推拉方式工作，每天都有一些类似“呃，又是这件事”的经历，你认为这会提高我们对真正喜欢的事物的满意度吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I would be surprised if it didn't.
如果没有的话我会感到惊讶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I think contrast effects are very powerful, and there's half a century of research on happiness suggesting that the comparisons we make are what matter.
我认为对比效应非常强大，半个世纪以来对幸福感的研究表明，我们所做的比较才是最重要的。
I think Tim Urban probably put it best when he said, "Happiness is reality minus expectations." And if you only have enjoyable experiences, your expectations are rising into perpetuity.
我认为蒂姆·厄本（Tim Urban）说得最好，“幸福就是现实减去期望。”如果你只拥有愉快的经历，你的期望就会永远上升。
So it doesn't matter how good your reality is, you wanted it to be better and better.
因此，无论你的现实有多好，你都希望它变得越来越好。
I think one of the things that mundane experiences manage to do for us, or maybe a better way to say it is, I think one of the benefits of mundane experiences is they keep our expectations on the ground, and allow us to be pleasantly surprised by a task that was more interesting than we expected even though we didn't love it.
我认为平凡的经历能够为我们做的事情之一，或者也许更好的说法是，我认为平凡的经历的好处之一是它们使我们的期望保持在现实中，并让我们对比我们预期更有趣的任务感到惊喜，即使我们不喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are your thoughts on what I call momentum, which is when I have an experience that I particularly like, if we record a podcast and I'm really excited to get it out into the world, or if I have some experience that I'm left very excited by at the end, that oftentimes the energy, again, I'm obsessed with this concept of neural energy, the energy that I glean from that experience seems to have carryover into other things.
你对我所说的动力有什么看法，即当我有一种我特别喜欢的经历时，如果我们录制一个播客，我真的很高兴能把它发布到世界上，或者如果我有一些经历让我在最后感到非常兴奋，那通常是能量，我再次沉迷于神经能量的概念，我从该经历中收集到的能量似乎已经转移到其他事物中。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to be much more excited to just go across the street and get a cup of coffee.
我会更兴奋地穿过马路去喝杯咖啡。
Feels like a bigger thing than it normally would.
感觉比平时更大。
And I would think that one could ride the wake of a prior accomplishment, even a small accomplishment each day, and make the tidying up or doing things that one would normally find more boring, less boring.
我认为，一个人可以在之前的成就之后，即使是每天一个小小的成就，让整理或做一些人们通常会觉得更无聊的事情变得不那么无聊。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
The way you're describing contrast effects makes it seem like that's more of a cliff, like, "That thing was great, and now this thing." But I also can ride high on something that happened two, three days ago, maybe even two, three months ago.
你描述对比效果的方式让它看起来更像是悬崖，就像，“那件事很棒，现在这个事情。”但我也可以对两三天前，甚至两三个月前发生的事情感到高兴。
So feeling good equates to feeling good, or feeling good accentuates the bad stuff.
因此，感觉良好就等于感觉良好，或者感觉良好会加剧不好的事情。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
This is the tension between contrast and spillover, and you can see both under different conditions.
这就是对比与溢出之间的张力，你可以在不同的条件下看到两者。
I think this is a brand new sort of, I don't think anybody's reconciled those two perspectives yet, but my hunch from having worked on the contrast part of it is we found that it was only extreme intrinsic motivation that had the performance cost on other tasks.
我认为这是一种全新的，我认为还没有人调和这两种观点，但我从对比部分的工作中得到的直觉是，我们发现只有极端的内在动机才会在其他任务上造成绩效成本。
So if you're enjoying something, if you like it, that will give you a lift for other tasks.
因此，如果你喜欢某件事，如果你喜欢它，这会给你其他任务带来动力。
It's where this is the best thing you've ever done, and now other things Suck by comparison.
这是你做过的最好的事情，而相比之下，现在其他的事情都很糟糕。
That's where we start to see you run into a problem.
这就是我们开始看到您遇到问题的地方。
I also wonder if there's a domain switching effect here.
我还想知道这里是否有域切换效应。
I think you're alluding to this.
我想你是在暗示这一点。
I read some research that just came out this year showing that one of the surprising benefits of morning workouts is you actually have more confidence in your job, because you get that small win, like, "I accomplished something this morning," and that gives you a sense of efficacy that you can carry over into the start of your workday.
我读到了今年刚刚发表的一些研究，表明早上锻炼的一个令人惊讶的好处是你实际上对自己的工作更有信心，因为你会得到一个小小的胜利，比如“我今天早上完成了一些事情”，这给你一种效率感，你可以将这种效率延续到你的工作日的开始。
Not to suggest that everyone should work out in the morning, because I'm with you.
并不是建议每个人都应该在早上锻炼，因为我和你在一起。
I think everybody should both work and work out at a time that works for them.
我认为每个人都应该在适合自己的时间工作和锻炼。
But I think there's something to be said for, something went really well in one realm of my life, and that boosts my belief and my capability to tackle challenges in a different realm.
但我认为有一些事情值得一提，在我生活的一个领域中，有些事情进展得非常顺利，这增强了我的信念和应对不同领域挑战的能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about in the opposite direction?
那么相反的方向呢？
You were a competitive diver.
你是一名竞技跳水运动员。
I have to presume that there were days when you had lousy dives.
我不得不推测，有些日子你的潜水很糟糕。
It must've been that one day, Adam.
一定是有一天，亚当。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It felt like every day.
感觉就像每天一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you leave, you shower up, dry off, head into the rest of your day, and how do we segment away from the negative thought spirals of something went really poorly, and now you're off into the domain of life where you know how to do the things that you're required to do, but maybe there's some challenge and some learning involved.
然后你离开，你洗澡，擦干，开始你一天的剩余时间，我们如何摆脱某些事情进展得很糟糕的消极思想螺旋，现在你进入了生活领域，你知道如何做你需要做的事情，但也许有一些挑战和一些学习涉及。
How do we cut moats between negative experiences?
我们如何切断负面经历之间的护城河？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
The Ted Lasso strategy is ideal.
Ted Lasso 策略是理想的。
Become a goldfish, 10-second memory, and then you don't even recall the practice you had earlier today.
变成金鱼，10秒记忆，然后你甚至不记得今天早些时候的练习了。
I think that I don't know anybody who can do that consistently.
我认为我不知道有谁能够始终如一地做到这一点。
And I think the more disappointing the experience is, the more you tend to dwell on it.
我认为经历越令人失望，你就越倾向于沉迷其中。
I think when you talk about segmenting negative experiences, I think probably the research that I've liked best on this, and I want to make sure I capture this clearly.
我认为当你谈论细分负面经历时，我想可能是我最喜欢的研究，我想确保我清楚地捕捉到了这一点。
Basically, so research on emotion regulation says there are two strategies that tend to be effective.
基本上，关于情绪调节的研究表明，有两种策略往往是有效的。
One is distraction, the other is reframing.
一是分散注意力，二是重构。
So distraction is find something else that will consume your attention, that's unrelated to the thing that you just bombed at.
因此，分散注意力就是寻找其他会消耗你注意力的事情，这些事情与你刚刚轰炸的事情无关。
And the hope is that, that fades into the background.
希望就这样消失了。
Reframing is a lot of what you were talking about a few minutes ago, which is, "Okay, let me focus, not on the level of my performance, but the slope." My diving coach, Eric Best, has a really great set of questions that he asks, and I remember I had finished practice.
重构就是你几分钟前谈论的很多内容，那就是，“好吧，让我关注的不是我的表现水平，而是斜率。”我的跳水教练埃里克·贝斯特（Eric Best）问了很多很棒的问题，我记得我已经完成了练习。
I'm like, "This is a terrible day.
我想，“这是可怕的一天。
I just feel like I'm worthless as a diver, and now diving was a big part of my identity.
我只是觉得作为一名潜水员我毫无价值，而现在潜水已经成为我身份的重要组成部分。
I'm going to let my team down.
我会让我的团队失望的。
Now I'm a bad teammate, too.
现在我也是一个糟糕的队友。
My coach is wasting his time, and now he could've been training somebody much better.
我的教练在浪费时间，现在他本可以更好地训练某人。
Why am I doing this?" And Eric would ask, "Did you make yourself better today?" And even if it was a bad practice, there is something that improved.
我为什么要这么做？”埃里克会问：“你今天让自己变得更好了吗？”即使这是一个不好的做法，也有一些改进。
"Yes." "Okay." And sometimes the answer feels like no, and then he would ask, "Did you make someone else better today?" I'm like, "Yeah, I gave a little tip to a teammate.
“是的。” “好的。”有时答案似乎是“不”，然后他会问：“你今天让别人变得更好了吗？”我想，“是的，我给了队友一点小费。
I made a joke that made everybody laugh." And he was like, "Great.
我开了个玩笑，让大家都笑了。”他说：“太棒了。
Then it wasn't a bad day." And I think this is an example of what good reframing looks like, to say, "Okay, the goal wasn't to be great, it was to be better.
那么这并不是糟糕的一天。”我认为这是一个好的重构的例子，就是说，“好吧，目标不是变得伟大，而是变得更好。
The goal wasn't necessarily just to make myself better, it was also to make other people better." And I think those are the kinds of questions that seem to segment pretty well.
目标不一定只是为了让自己变得更好，也是为了让其他人变得更好。”我认为这些问题似乎可以很好地划分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that feedback because I think we all get stuck in those thought spirals.
我喜欢这种反馈，因为我认为我们都陷入了这些思想螺旋之中。
And, again, not to demonize smartphones because they are wonderful tools, but I have to remember the time, I'm 48 years old as of tomorrow, and I have to remember a time in which negative stuff was probably happening in the background, but I didn't hear about it because no one was texting it to me.
再说一遍，不要妖魔化智能手机，因为它们是很棒的工具，但我必须记住那个时间，从明天起我就 48 岁了，我必须记住某个时间，在那个时间里可能正在发生负面的事情，但我没有听到它，因为没有人发短信给我。
So I'd find out at the end of the day, when I still had time to do other things in the meantime.
所以我会在一天结束时找到答案，那时我还有时间做其他事情。
Right?
正确的？
That said, I would also get negative experiences early in the day and then carry them throughout the entire day, when nowadays you can get a positive text message that says, "Okay, it wasn't so bad," or something like that.
也就是说，我也会在一天的早些时候得到负面的经历，然后一整天都带着它们，而现在你可以收到一条积极的短信，上面写着“好吧，事情并没有那么糟糕”，或者类似的东西。
But I do think, as is probably becoming apparent about these channels of communication are either boons or disruptions to our positive psychology.
但我确实认为，这些沟通渠道对我们的积极心理要么是有益的，要么是破坏的，这一点可能越来越明显。
It's clear that we're just being bombarded all the time.
很明显，我们一直在遭受轰炸。
So, just as a practical question, what is your relationship to your phone?
那么，作为一个实际问题，您与手机的关系如何？
Do you set boundaries around your phone use, or the types of communications and activities that you engage with on your phone?
您是否对手机使用或在手机上进行的通信和活动类型设定了界限？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I do.
我愿意。
So, I think everyone I know has a to-do list.
所以，我想我认识的每个人都有一个待办事项清单。
I also have a to-don't list.
我还有一个“不该做的事”清单。
And on my to-don't list includes, I don't scroll on social media, and I don't pick up my phone past 9:00 PM.
在我的“禁止事项”清单中，我不会浏览社交媒体，也不会在晚上 9:00 后拿起手机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And those two habits are enormously helpful, particularly the not scrolling.
这两个习惯非常有帮助，尤其是不滚动的习惯。
I pick up my phone when I have something to post.
当我有东西要发布时，我就会拿起手机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Or when I want to see what the comments are and then see if there's something interesting to learn or somebody that I want to respond to.
或者当我想查看评论是什么，然后看看是否有一些有趣的东西值得学习或我想回复的人时。
And that becomes a really healthy boundary because I don't get stuck in one of these rabbit holes where all of a sudden two hours have gone by and I feel like I wasted my time.
这成为一个非常健康的界限，因为我不会陷入这些兔子洞中，突然两个小时过去了，我觉得我浪费了时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where do you post or keep your to-do and your to-don't list?
您在哪里发布或保存您的待办事项和不待办事项清单？
Do you keep them on your phone?
你把它们保存在手机上吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
No, it's a Word document on my computer.
不，这是我电脑上的 Word 文档。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So you're still at the computer screen quite a bit each day.
所以你每天仍然会花很多时间在电脑屏幕前。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I feel like that's where most of my good thinking and writing happens.
我觉得这就是我大部分好的思考和写作发生的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
I carry a small notebook around with me now and write things down.
我现在随身带着一个小笔记本，记下事情。
I was just curious-
我只是好奇——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Like one of these?
喜欢其中之一吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, like one of those.
嗯，就像其中之一。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Um-
嗯-
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I try not to take notes on my phone, ever.
我尽量不在手机上做笔记。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah, it can be problematic for me, especially with voice recognition now, because it's hard to go back to that in a systematic way for me.
是的，这对我来说可能是个问题，尤其是现在的语音识别，因为对我来说很难以系统的方式回到那个问题。
But I'm a big believer in these things that, for those listening and not watching, I'm holding up a pen.
但我坚信这些事情，对于那些倾听而不是观看的人，我举起了笔。
So it's like pencils work, too.
所以这就像铅笔的作用一样。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
You've probably read some of the research also showing that you have a better memory for information when you take notes by hand than by keyboard.
您可能读过一些研究，这些研究还表明，用手记笔记比用键盘记笔记对信息有更好的记忆力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't know that, but I'm very gratified to hear that.
我不知道，但听到这个我很高兴。
And I suppose if you don't have a pen and you don't have a pencil handy, then blood always works.
我想，如果你手边没有钢笔，也没有铅笔，那么血总是有用的。
Just kidding.
只是在开玩笑。
I'm just kidding.
我只是在开玩笑。
Don't make yourself or anyone else bleed just to get an idea down.
不要为了把一个想法写下来而让自己或其他人流血。
But it is amazing how sometimes we will have ideas while running, walking, showering, out and about, and then later try and recall those ideas.
但令人惊讶的是，有时我们会在跑步、散步、洗澡、外出时产生想法，然后尝试回忆这些想法。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And they're lost.
他们迷路了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if we don't write them down, they're gone.
如果我们不把它们写下来，它们就会消失。
The great Joe Strummer from The Clash talked about the critical importance of carrying around a small notebook, such as you did, because he said that the ideas fall down like rain, and if you catch them, they're there, but if you miss them, they truly won't be there later.
《The Clash》中伟大的乔·斯特鲁默（Joe Strummer）谈到了随身携带小笔记本的重要性，就像你一样，因为他说想法像雨一样落下，如果你抓住它们，它们就在那里，但如果你错过它们，它们以后就真的不会在那里了。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's something kind of eerie about that.
这有点奇怪。
Why wouldn't we be able to remember these potential gems of ideas?
为什么我们记不住这些潜在的思想瑰宝？
All right.
好的。
The geysering up of the mind.
心灵的间歇泉。
We had a guest on this podcast for a series, Dr. Paul Conti, a psychiatrist, and he talked extensively about the unconscious mind.
我们在这个系列的播客上邀请了一位精神病学家保罗·康蒂博士（Dr. Paul Conti），他广泛谈论了无意识思维。
I mentioned this a little earlier, but, one of the things that really stuck with me is he said, "Everyone thinks that the prefrontal cortex and the frontal cortex is the supercomputer of the human brain.
我之前提到过这一点，但是，真正让我印象深刻的一件事是他说：“每个人都认为前额叶皮层和额叶皮层是人类大脑的超级计算机。
Sets context, planning, strategy switching, et cetera." Certainly, it's valuable real estate to our intellect and all our abilities.
设置背景、规划、策略切换等等。”当然，它对于我们的智力和所有能力来说都是宝贵的财富。
But he said, "The real supercomputer is the unconscious mind." However , that unconscious mind that lives below the surface of our awareness is also what drives a lot of our unconscious defenses.
但他说，“真正的超级计算机是无意识的思维。”然而，生活在我们意识表面之下的无意识思维也是我们许多无意识防御的驱动力。
So our so-called blind spots.
所以我们所谓的盲点。
So projection, projective identification.
所以投影，投影识别。
These can be both good or bad.
这些可能是好是坏。
They can serve us well or poorly, and so on and so forth.
他们可以为我们提供好或坏的服务，等等。
But implied in this notion of the unconscious and blind spots is that we can't become aware of things unless we either do dedicated work to become aware of them, or even better would be dedicated work where we are asking other people to say, "Hey, listen, you have a blind spot, and it is blank, blank, and blank." So tell us about the role of blind spots, maybe even some positive aspects of having blind spots.
但无意识和盲点的概念隐含的是，我们无法意识到事物，除非我们专门工作来意识到它们，或者更好的是，我们可以专门工作，要求其他人说：“嘿，听着，你有一个盲点，它是空白的，空白的，还是空白的。”请告诉我们盲点的作用，甚至可能是盲点的一些积极方面。
But more importantly, what we can do to fill in those blind spots, and perhaps also explain how they can limit us, and if you have any examples from the research where people overcoming their blind spots has benefited them.
但更重要的是，我们可以做些什么来填补这些盲点，也许还可以解释它们如何限制我们，以及研究中是否有任何例子表明人们克服盲点使他们受益。
That would be amazing.
那真是太棒了。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Wow, there's a lot there.
哇，那里有很多。
Well, let me start by saying, I think a lot of people think about blind spots in terms of heuristics and biases.
好吧，首先我要说的是，我认为很多人都会从启发法和偏见的角度来思考盲点。
So you think about confirmation bias.
所以你要考虑确认偏差。
You think about the classic Kahneman-Tversky work that ended up winning Danny a Nobel Prize on the way in which our intuitive judgments often get anchored in the way we've done things before.
你想想卡尼曼-特沃斯基的经典作品，它最终为丹尼赢得了诺贝尔奖，因为我们的直觉判断常常扎根于我们以前做事的方式。
Or we focus on the information that's salient and available to us and overlook less obvious information.
或者我们专注于对我们而言显着且可用的信息，而忽略不太明显的信息。
I've come to think that the mother of all biases is what I think of as the I'm-not-biased bias.
我开始认为，所有偏见之母就是我所认为的“我没有偏见”的偏见。
It's technically called the bias blind spot in Emily Pronin and colleagues' research.
在 Emily Pronin 及其同事的研究中，技术上这被称为偏差盲点。
But the idea is that I think I'm more objective than other people.
但我的想法是，我认为我比其他人更客观。
And you may have flaws in your thinking, Andrew, but me?
安德鲁，你的想法可能有缺陷，但我呢？
I see things clearly and rationally.
我看事情很清楚、很理性。
And I think that it's a really dangerous meta-bias because the moment you believe you're not biased, you are incapable of seeing any of your biases.
我认为这是一种非常危险的元偏见，因为一旦你相信自己没有偏见，你就无法看到自己的任何偏见。
So in some of the research on the bias blind spot, you see that people who score high in cognitive ability tests, so high IQ, are actually more likely to fall victim to the I'm-not-biased bias because they've been reinforced for a lifetime that they're really smart and they're good at thinking.
因此，在一些关于偏见盲点的研究中，你会发现那些在认知能力测试中得分很高、智商很高的人实际上更有可能成为“我没有偏见”偏见的受害者，因为他们一生都被强化，认为自己非常聪明并且擅长思考。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, goodness.
哦，天哪。
We don't talk about current events on this podcast much, but this explains some current events of people that were told their entire careers that they are perfect or near perfect, and circumstances eventually came to slam them hard into the concrete on that one.
我们在这个播客上谈论的不多，但这解释了人们在整个职业生涯中被告知自己是完美或接近完美的一些时事，而环境最终让他们陷入了困境。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Or in some cases, it hasn't happened yet but we watch them hurtling toward Earth.
或者在某些情况下，它还没有发生，但我们看着它们冲向地球。
So I worry a lot about that.
所以我对此非常担心。
So I think the beginning of seeing any blind spot is recognizing that we all have blind spots.
所以我认为看到任何盲点的开始就是认识到我们都有盲点。
It's part of being human.
这是人类的一部分。
I think that the brighter side of that is that we're not just blind to weaknesses, we're also blind to our strengths.
我认为光明的一面是我们不仅对弱点视而不见，而且对我们的优势视而不见。
So Jane Dutton and Laura Morgan Roberts and colleagues did some research on the reflected best self portrait.
因此，简·达顿（Jane Dutton）和劳拉·摩根·罗伯茨（Laura Morgan Roberts）及其同事对反映的最佳自画像进行了一些研究。
This is one of my favorite exercises to do in the classroom, but also to do in workplaces.
这是我最喜欢在课堂上做的练习之一，也是在工作场所做的。
Sometimes even people end up doing it with their kids at home.
有时甚至人们最终会在家里和孩子一起做这件事。
The idea is that you do have strengths that you're not that aware of.
这个想法是，你确实拥有自己没有意识到的优势。
They may be things that come naturally to you that you don't even realize are hard for other people.
它们可能是你自然而然的事情，而你甚至没有意识到对其他人来说很难。
They may be things that are struggles for you.
它们可能是让你感到挣扎的事情。
And so you think it's hard to do, and therefore, "I'm bad at it." But other people watch you do it and realize you're actually quite good at it.
所以你觉得这很难做到，因此，“我不擅长”。但其他人看着你这样做，就会意识到你实际上很擅长。
So you need other people to hold up a mirror to see what these invisible strengths are.
所以你需要其他人举起一面镜子来看看这些看不见的力量是什么。
So the way the reflected best self-exercise works is you're asked to contact 10 to 20 people who know you well in different walks of life.
因此，最好的自我锻炼方式是要求您联系 10 到 20 个各行各业非常了解您的人。
Might be a family member, a couple friends, some colleagues, and then you ask them to tell a story about a time when you were at your best.
可能是一个家庭成员、几个朋友、一些同事，然后你让他们讲述一个关于你最好的时候的故事。
And you collect these stories.
然后你收集这些故事。
It's the most exciting week of email you will ever get.
这是您收到的最令人兴奋的电子邮件一周。
20 notes.
20 个笔记。
"Let me tell you how great you are." But what's key, this goes back to our discussion of feedback earlier, is they're really specific about a moment when you were at your best.
“让我告诉你，你有多伟大。”但关键的是，这可以追溯到我们之前对反馈的讨论，它们确实是针对你处于最佳状态的时刻。
And then your job is to collect all the stories and do the pattern recognition exercise and ask, "What are the common themes that I've seen through these stories?" And it's a really powerful and vivid way of getting a sense of what are those strengths.
然后你的工作是收集所有故事并进行模式识别练习并询问：“我通过这些故事看到的共同主题是什么？”这是了解这些优势的一种非常强大和生动的方式。
And it's not surprising that in some of the research, when people go through this process, they end up with much more clarity, not only about what they're good at and where their potential lies, but also, what do those situations have in common where I was able to use my strengths, and how do I get myself in those situations more often?
毫不奇怪的是，在一些研究中，当人们经历这个过程时，他们最终会更加清晰，不仅了解自己擅长什么和潜力所在，而且了解那些我能够发挥自己优势的情况有什么共同点，以及我如何更频繁地陷入这些情况？
How do I create those situations more often?
我如何更频繁地创造这些情况？
I'll give you a personal example on this.
我将给你举一个个人的例子。
So, I got a bunch of feedback that I was good at helping other people see their strengths.
所以，我收到了很多反馈，说我擅长帮助其他人看到他们的优势。
And I thought, "Okay, I don't feel like I have enough opportunities to use that strength in my daily life, so what am I going to do about this?" And I ended up flipping the exercise upside down, and I picked 100 people who really mattered to me, and I wrote a story to each of them about a time when they were at their best.
我想，“好吧，我觉得我没有足够的机会在日常生活中运用这种力量，那么我该怎么办呢？”最后我把这个练习颠倒了过来，我挑选了 100 个对我真正重要的人，我给他们每个人写了一个关于他们处于最佳状态的故事。
And I'm like, "There's no reason I can't make this part of my day." It was probably one of the best weeks of my life.
我想，“我没有理由不能把这当作我一天的一部分。”这可能是我一生中最美好的几周之一。
It was better than getting the stories, was giving them.
这比获得故事更好，是给予它们。
And I got these notes back from people saying, "I didn't realize, I don't even remember that thing that happened." But I think for me, it was an example of saying, "Okay, I've always enjoyed trying to bring out the best in others." At the time, I was a first-year doctoral student.
我从人们那里得到了这些笔记，他们说：“我没有意识到，我什至不记得发生过那件事。”但我认为对我来说，这是一个例子，我说：“好吧，我一直很喜欢尝试让别人发挥出最好的一面。”当时，我是一年级博士生。
I didn't feel like I had anything to contribute to others.
我不觉得自己能为别人做出什么贡献。
So I'm trying to learn how to understand this field and do a worthwhile study and write a paper.
所以我正在努力学习如何理解这个领域并进行有价值的研究并写一篇论文。
I'm not teaching yet.
我还没教书呢
I have no value to add.
我没有什么可补充的。
And getting this feedback like, "Oh, you're somebody who helps other people see their potential." I'm like, "All right.
得到这样的反馈，比如“哦，你是一个帮助别人看到他们潜力的人。”我想，“好吧。
Let me take some people that I already recognize really amazing things in, and let me just tell them that." And it took me about a week to write the 100 emails, and I can't think of a week I've spent better.
让我带一些我已经认识到真正令人惊奇的事情的人，然后让我告诉他们。”我花了大约一周的时间来写这 100 封电子邮件，我想不出还有哪一个星期是我度过得更好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
It's so interesting that you flipped the process on its head a bit, or a lot, and that ended up being the reward.
它是如此有趣，以至于你稍微或大幅度地改变了这个过程，而这最终成为了奖励。
Do you think you learned anything about, given that it was early in your academic career, do you think you learned anything about your particular talent or desire to do what you do now?
考虑到那是在你学术生涯的早期，你认为你学到了任何关于你现在所做的事情的特殊才能或愿望的东西吗？
So much of what you described seems to map well to what you do now.
您所描述的大部分内容似乎与您现在所做的事情很吻合。
You could be, if you were to choose or have chosen, just, not just, but a laboratory scientist doing experiments.
如果你选择或已经选择，你可以只是，不仅仅是，而是一名做实验的实验室科学家。
You're clearly still doing that with tremendous productivity, but you've also decided to tell the world about the information that you're gathering and the work of a lot of other people as well.
显然，您仍然以巨大的生产力这样做，但您也决定向全世界介绍您正在收集的信息以及许多其他人的工作。
I guess I feel a kinship here because we both do this.
我想我在这里有一种亲切感，因为我们都这样做。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It's much more interesting to cite other people's work than talk about what you already know.
引用别人的工作比谈论你已经知道的事情有趣得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is, indeed.
确实如此。
And it's fun to be able to weave one's understanding of the process into what are other people doing and know how hard it is to do really good experiments and be able to spot really good experiments.
能够将对过程的理解融入到其他人正在做的事情中，并且知道做真正好的实验并能够发现真正好的实验是多么困难，这是很有趣的。
But did you learn in that early stage of your career that, "I think I want to do this later"?
但是，您在职业生涯的早期阶段是否了解到“我想我想稍后再做这件事”？
Because what you do now, it maps pretty well onto what you just described.
因为你现在所做的，它很好地映射到你刚才描述的内容。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It wasn't crystallized at the time, but it was definitely one of those seeds that was planted that must have grown because I remember right after I got tenure, a wonderful colleague of mine asked if I would write a book with him, and I was so flattered, and I went in to talk to my undergrad research lab later that day, and I mentioned offhand, I was like, "Hey, I got this invite.
当时它还没有具体化，但它绝对是那些种下的种子之一，一定已经长大了，因为我记得在我获得终身教职后，我的一位出色的同事问我是否愿意和他一起写一本书，我很受宠若惊，那天晚些时候我走进我的本科生研究实验室，我随口提到，我当时想，“嘿，我收到了这个邀请。
I'm going to write this book." And they freaked out.
我要写这本书。”他们吓坏了。
Like, "No, you cannot write somebody else's book.
就像，“不，你不能写别人的书。
You have to write about your ideas first.
你必须先写下你的想法。
If you're going to write a book, write your own book." And I was very resistant because I love other people's ideas.
如果你要写一本书，那就写你自己的书。”我非常抗拒，因为我喜欢别人的想法。
I was like, "No, I feel like what I do best" I think it was Boyé who wrote about the scholarship of discovery versus the scholarship of integration, and I never felt like I was a eureka, blindingly original insight person.
我当时想，“不，我觉得我最擅长的事情”我认为是博耶写了关于发现的学术与整合的学术的文章，我从来不觉得自己是一个尤里卡，具有令人眼花缭乱的原创洞察力的人。
I felt like what I was good at was synthesizing ideas.
我觉得我擅长的是综合想法。
And kind of taking a bunch of pieces of cloth and sewing them into a quilt and allowing people to see the big picture in a way they hadn't before.
就是把一堆布缝成被子，让人们以前所未有的方式看到全局。
And I felt like I could do that with a colleague who was already a successful author.
我觉得我可以和一位已经是成功作家的同事一起做到这一点。
And my students basically held me hostage, and they said, "You've been doing this research for over a decade now, and you have a responsibility to share that outside your classroom." And it reminded me of that experience of saying, "Okay, there's something I see in other people.
我的学生基本上把我当作人质，他们说，“你做这项研究已经十多年了，你有责任在课堂外分享它。”这让我想起了那次经历：“好吧，我在别人身上看到了一些东西。
I want to share it with them, and maybe I could do that on a broader scale." So yeah, I think there were definitely dots that connected there.
我想与他们分享，也许我可以在更广泛的范围内做到这一点。”所以，是的，我认为那里肯定有一些点是相连的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I was a master's student at Berkeley, there was a guy who's now moved to Michigan State, Mark Breedlove, who I hope to host on the podcast, actually.
当我还是伯克利大学的硕士生时，有一个人现在搬到了密歇根州立大学，马克·布里德洛夫（Mark Breedlove），实际上我希望在播客上主持他。
Does really interesting work on the biology of sexual differentiation.
在性别分化的生物学方面做了非常有趣的工作。
And-
还有——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Mark, I think that's an invite if you're listening
马克，如果你在听的话，我想这是一个邀请
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
It is, indeed.
确实如此。
And he said to me, "Review articles, provided they are written by people who are credentialed in a given field, are cited at 100X any one particular paper." Now, at the time, I wasn't interested in impact factors.
他对我说，“评论文章，只要它们是由在特定领域有资格的人撰写的，任何一篇特定论文的引用率都是 100 倍。”现在，当时我对影响因子不感兴趣。
In fact, I've never paid any attention to impact factors.
事实上，我从来没有关注过影响因子。
Their importance varies in different countries.
它们的重要性在不同国家有所不同。
In the US, they play some role, more so in Europe.
在美国，它们发挥着一定作用，在欧洲更是如此。
But I could care less about impact factor, frankly, because those metrics aren't what's going to carry you through the difficulty of designing and carrying out a hard experiment.
但坦率地说，我不太关心影响因子，因为这些指标并不能帮助你克服设计和实施艰难实验的困难。
You have to be intrinsically curious about the answer, right?
您必须本质上对答案感到好奇，对吧？
You know this, and I know this.
你知道这一点，我也知道这一点。
But he basically said something that really supports your point, which is that ultimately, the ability to synthesize information can feel really good.
但他基本上说了一些真正支持你观点的东西，那就是最终，综合信息的能力会让人感觉非常好。
And he started talking about the feeling that he got from doing that.
他开始谈论他这样做的感受。
He's also a tremendous bench scientist as well.
他也是一位出色的实验室科学家。
In any event, I'm so glad that you flipped that exercise on its head because now the world gets to benefit from you doing that for us all the time because I realize now that much of what you do is to help people identify and erase their blind spots by, and I love your social media channels, and I noted on Instagram, and I do scroll, but I scroll through and to your channel, too.
无论如何，我很高兴你颠覆了这个做法，因为现在世界可以从你一直为我们做的事情中受益，因为我现在意识到你所做的大部分工作是帮助人们识别和消除他们的盲点，我喜欢你的社交媒体渠道，我在 Instagram 上注意到，我确实滚动，但我也滚动浏览并进入你的频道。
You'll put up in short-form content that really highlights the key importance of people embarking on strategies that they wouldn't reflexively take.
您将发布简短的内容，真正强调人们采取他们不会本能地采取的策略的关键重要性。
I see that over and over again.
我一遍又一遍地看到这一点。
It's like we think that the best leaders do blank, but actually, the research says they do exactly the opposite.
就像我们认为最好的领导者会做空白一样，但实际上，研究表明他们的做法恰恰相反。
And you have a vast- ...
而你有一个巨大的——...
kit of those.
那些的套件。
So along those lines, what are some of the most common blind spots that you observe, and that people could benefit from understanding and doing contrary action around as it relates to, let's say, interpersonal relations in the workplace or at home?
那么，沿着这些思路，您观察到的一些最常见的盲点是什么，人们可以从理解和采取相反的行动中受益，因为它与工作场所或家庭中的人际关系有关？
And maybe we could seed this with a finding that you've also written about, which is that people who have and exert a lot of proficiency and even control in their professional life will sometimes bring that to their relationship life, and that doesn't work.
也许我们可以用你也写过的一个发现来种子，那就是那些在职业生活中拥有并发挥出大量熟练程度甚至控制力的人有时会将其带到他们的人际关系生活中，但这是行不通的。
Right?
正确的？
The idea that being in charge and being confident is a great set of attributes, but it can really fail us in other domains.
负责和自信是一系列很好的品质，但它确实会让我们在其他领域失败。
Can we weave that in with blind spots?
我们可以将其与盲点交织在一起吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah, we can.
是的，我们可以。
So one of the things I found over the past few years is that, and this is inspired by a Phil Tetlock framework, a lot of us spend a lot of our time thinking like preachers, prosecutors, or politicians.
因此，我在过去几年中发现的一件事是，这是受到 Phil Tetlock 框架的启发，我们很多人花了很多时间像传教士、检察官或政客一样思考。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Preachers, prosecutors, politicians.
传教士、检察官、政治家。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So you can think about these as three mental modes that even if you've never worked in any of these careers, you will watch your thinking colored by at least one of them more often than you would like.
因此，您可以将它们视为三种心理模式，即使您从未从事过这些职业中的任何一种，您也会发现您的思维被其中至少一种所影响的频率比您希望的要多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
So in preacher mode, you're basically proselytizing your own views.
所以在传教士模式下，你基本上是在传播你自己的观点。
Andrew, in some situations, I think of you as a highly effective professional debunker of preachers of certain kinds of snake oil when it comes to health and biology.
安德鲁，在某些情况下，我认为您在健康和生物学方面是一位高效、专业的揭穿某些万金油传道者的人。
Sometimes you take that too far, and people might accuse you of being a prosecutor-
有时你做得太过分了，人们可能会指责你是检察官——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
...
...
where you're attacking other people's views.
当你攻击别人的观点时。
And then the third mode, politician mode, is basically you don't even bother to listen to people unless they already agree with your views.
第三种模式，政客模式，基本上你甚至懒得去听别人的意见，除非他们已经同意你的观点。
What I think is interesting is these modes of thinking are adaptive in certain roles.
我认为有趣的是这些思维模式在某些角色中是适应性的。
So preachers make great salespeople.
所以传道人是伟大的销售员。
They're often visionary leaders.
他们往往是有远见的领导者。
Prosecutors are often highly effective scientists.
检察官往往是高效的科学家。
We excel at criticizing other people's work and finding what's wrong with it.
我们擅长批评别人的工作并找出其中的问题。
Politicians are great at currying favor.
政治家很擅长讨好。
They do a lot of lobbying.
他们进行了大量的游说活动。
They win approval.
他们赢得了认可。
The problem is that all of these modes stop you from questioning your own assumptions and beliefs.
问题是所有这些模式都会阻止你质疑自己的假设和信念。
I'll tell you, my biggest vice is prosecutor mode.
我告诉你，我最大的恶习就是检察官模式。
I've been called a logic bully.
我被称为逻辑恶霸。
My wife had to explain to me that was not a compliment.
我的妻子不得不向我解释这不是一种恭维。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh my goodness.
天哪。
Oh, that's good.
哦，那很好。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I know you've experienced this too.
我知道你也经历过这个。
If I feel confident that there's strong evidence that somebody is wrong, I believe it's my moral responsibility to correct them, and that never goes well.
如果我确信有强有力的证据表明某人错了，我相信纠正他们是我的道义责任，但这种情况永远不会顺利。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
I won't reflect on my own experience.
我不会反思我自己的经历。
I'll just say yes and yes.
我只会说是的，是的。
Right.
正确的。
The logic word ninja mode is one that I think we're trained in as academics.
我认为我们作为学者接受过逻辑词忍者模式的训练。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
We are.
我们是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or if you're a lawyer or many other professions as well, and I think it holds value, and it can be very effective in certain domains, but less effective in other domains.
或者，如果您是一名律师或许多其他职业，我认为它具有价值，并且它在某些领域可能非常有效，但在其他领域则不太有效。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes.
是的。
And I think part of the problem is actually, whether you're preaching, prosecuting, or politicking, you look like you're not open, because you've already, in all cases, you think you're right and other people are wrong.
我认为问题的一部分实际上是，无论你是在说教、起诉还是从事政治活动，你看起来都不开放，因为在所有情况下，你都认为自己是对的，而其他人是错的。
And so that makes it really hard for other people to reason with you, to disagree thoughtfully with you.
因此，这使得其他人很难与你讲道理，深思熟虑地不同意你的观点。
So my favorite alternative, and this is at the heart of what you do for a living and for fun, is thinking like a scientist.
因此，我最喜欢的选择是像科学家一样思考，这也是你谋生和娱乐的核心。
And when I say thinking like a scientist, I do not mean that you need to buy a microscope or invest in a telescope.
当我说像科学家一样思考时，我并不是说你需要购买显微镜或投资望远镜。
What I mean is, as you model so effectively, a good scientist has the humility to know what they don't know and the curiosity to constantly seek out new knowledge.
我的意思是，当你建立如此有效的模型时，优秀的科学家就会谦虚地知道自己不知道什么，并具有不断寻求新知识的好奇心。
There have been multiple experiments showing that when people are taught to think like scientists, their judgment improves and so do their decisions.
多项实验表明，当人们被教导像科学家一样思考时，他们的判断力和决策都会得到改善。
And I think a lot of that stems from when you go into scientist mode, you realize that all of your opinions are just hypotheses waiting to be tested.
我认为这很大程度上源于当你进入科学家模式时，你意识到你所有的观点都只是等待测试的假设。
All of your decisions are experiments.
你所有的决定都是实验。
And so you're like, "Well, I'm not trying to prove that I'm right.
所以你会说，“好吧，我并不是想证明我是对的。
I'm trying to find out if I might be wrong.
我正在尝试找出我是否错了。
And then if I find out I am wrong, it's easier to pivot, and instead of being really invested in being right, I can try to get it right." And I think in some ways, that's the meta message that I'm trying to communicate to people with my work is assumptions are meant to be pressure tested.
然后，如果我发现自己错了，就更容易调整方向，而不是真正投入到正确的事情上，我可以尝试让它变得正确。”我认为在某些方面，这就是我试图通过我的工作向人们传达的元信息：假设应该经过压力测试。
They're meant to be questioned and challenged.
他们注定要受到质疑和挑战。
And if you're not open to rethinking your views, then you basically turn thinking into a religion.
如果你不愿意重新思考你的观点，那么你基本上就把思考变成了一种宗教。
And I don't know about you, but I prefer to base my views on good data, as opposed to blind faith.
我不了解你的情况，但我更喜欢将我的观点建立在可靠的数据之上，而不是盲目的信仰。
And I think that's been a huge part of your contribution in the last three or so years to public discourse is you've helped people think more scientifically and talk more scientifically about their daily habits and behaviors.
我认为，在过去三年左右的时间里，您对公共话语的贡献很大一部分是您帮助人们更科学地思考并更科学地谈论他们的日常习惯和行为。
And I guess my big question is how do we help people do that more often, even in domains where they don't have access to scientific knowledge and they don't read journals?
我想我最大的问题是我们如何帮助人们更频繁地这样做，即使是在他们无法获得科学知识并且不阅读期刊的领域？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
First of all, thanks for the kind words of feedback.
首先，感谢您的反馈。
I think my goal is always to identify who's coming to the podcast for health tools and protocols and hopefully teach them some science and scientific thinking.
我认为我的目标始终是确定谁会来播客获取健康工具和协议，并希望教给他们一些科学和科学思维。
And for those that are coming to the podcast for science and scientific thinking, hopefully, they get some health tools and protocols also.
对于那些来播客寻求科学和科学思维的人来说，希望他们也能获得一些健康工具和协议。
But because I fell in love with science for the exact reason that you're describing, which is that I grew up in a family that was very divided politically, along religious lines, along essentially every line of what foods to eat, what was healthy, what wasn't.
但因为我爱上科学的确切原因正如你所描述的那样，那就是我成长在一个政治上、宗教上、基本上在吃什么食物、什么是健康的、什么不健康的每个方面都非常分裂的家庭。
And the only way I could reconcile these very frankly polarized views was to embark on the scientific method, pose a hypothesis, and then try and disprove one's hypothesis.
我能够调和这些非常坦率的两极分化观点的唯一方法就是采用科学方法，提出假设，然后尝试反驳自己的假设。
And some things get through the filter, and it's a constant learning.
有些东西会通过过滤器，这是一个不断学习的过程。
So I should just ask, when you teach people how to be a scientist in order to try and overcome some of their blind spots and be better thinkers, better meaning it serves themselves and the people around them better Is that teaching them what a hypothesis is?
所以我应该问，当你教人们如何成为一名科学家，以尝试克服他们的一些盲点并成为更好的思想家时，更好的意思是它可以更好地为他们自己和周围的人服务，这是在教他们什么是假设吗？
That a hypothesis is not a question, it's sort of a you wager on an idea with the understanding that you very well could be wrong, and then you try and disprove that idea.
假设不是一个问题，它是一种你对一个想法下注的方式，你知道你很可能是错的，然后你尝试反驳这个想法。
Is that sort of the crux of what, in these experiments, you're describing as teaching people how to be scientists?
在这些实验中，你所说的教人们如何成为科学家，这就是关键吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like if they just do that, then they're going to benefit.
就像如果他们这样做，那么他们就会受益。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I think that's at the very heart of the lens is, I want to just double-click on the idea of disproving your hypothesis.
我认为这就是镜头的核心，我想双击反驳你的假设的想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Because most people live in a land of confirmation bias, where they're basically just looking for support for their preexisting beliefs.
因为大多数人生活在一个充满确认偏见的土地上，他们基本上只是在寻找对他们先前存在的信念的支持。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right, they're click foraging.
没错，他们正在点击觅食。
We all do this, by the way.
顺便说一句，我们都这样做。
I'm not criticizing here.
我不是在这里批评。
We all will have an idea, and then we will click forage online to support the idea that we disagree with them, they disagree with us.
我们都会有一个想法，然后我们会在网上点击搜索来支持我们不同意他们的想法，他们不同意我们的想法。
Ah, here's somebody I agree with, and that agrees with me.
啊，这是一个我同意的人，他也同意我的观点。
Do you think this has roots in the neural circuit underpinnings of just wanting to have affiliation?
你认为这是否源于只想拥有归属感的神经回路基础？
That affiliation feels good.
这种归属感感觉很好。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Having people that are like us, knowing that we're kind of protected in that.
拥有像我们一样的人，知道我们在这方面受到了保护。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah, I think that's a big part of it.
是的，我认为这是其中很大一部分。
I think one of the reasons that we encase ourselves in echo chambers and hide in filter bubbles is there's a strong evolutionary pressure to avoid social exclusion.
我认为我们将自己包裹在回声室中并隐藏在过滤气泡中的原因之一是存在避免社会排斥的强大进化压力。
And so, it's not just the being drawn to affiliation, it's also I'm afraid of being excommunicated from my group, and if I challenge the orthodoxy of the community that I belong to, I might be an outcast.
所以，这不仅仅是被归属感所吸引，也是我害怕被逐出我的群体，如果我挑战我所属群体的正统观念，我可能会被排斥。
And I don't think everyday people think through that logic, but I think there's a deep-seated, visceral tendency to avoid that.
我不认为普通人会思考这种逻辑，但我认为有一种根深蒂固的、本能的倾向来避免这种情况。
And I think when we think about teaching people to see their blind spots more clearly, a lot of that is recognizing it's hard to do that on your own.
我认为，当我们考虑教导人们更清楚地看到自己的盲点时，很大程度上是认识到仅靠自己很难做到这一点。
Because by definition, your blind spots are invisible to you, and so this is why other people's input is so important.
因为根据定义，你的盲点对你来说是看不见的，所以这就是为什么其他人的意见如此重要。
And I think, I know this makes a lot of people uncomfortable, but I think everybody on social media should follow people that they disagree with.
我认为，我知道这让很多人感到不舒服，但我认为社交媒体上的每个人都应该关注他们不同意的人。
But not just for the sake of it.
但不仅仅是为了它。
You want people who reach different conclusions from you, but where you respect the integrity of their thought process.
你希望人们得出与你不同的结论，但你尊重他们思维过程的完整性。
Those are the people who really stretch your thinking, and I think that's what we are trained to do.
这些人真正拓展了你的思维，我认为这就是我们接受的培训要做的事情。
It's what I was trained to do as a social scientist is, to listen to the ideas that made me think hard, not just the ones that made me feel good, and to surround myself with people who challenged my thought process, not just the ones who validated my conclusions.
作为一名社会科学家，我接受的培训就是要倾听那些让我认真思考的想法，而不仅仅是那些让我感觉良好的想法；让自己身边充满挑战我思维过程的人，而不仅仅是那些验证我的结论的人。
And I think a lot of people hear that message, and they're like, "No, but I don't want to let that awful perspective into my world." I'm like, "No, you want to be more nuanced in saying, 'Who are the people where before I knew what their answer was, I would be impressed with the depth and the thoroughness of their reflection and their analysis?' I should be following those people and learning from them, regardless of the hypotheses that they generate and the results that they share."
我想很多人听到这个消息后都会说：“不，但我不想让这种可怕的观点进入我的世界。”我想，“不，你想更细致地说，‘在我知道他们的答案是什么之前，他们的反思和分析的深度和彻底性会给我留下深刻的印象？’”我应该关注这些人并向他们学习，无论他们提出什么假设以及分享什么结果。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm so glad that you mentioned the importance of following people that you disagree with.
我很高兴你提到关注你不同意的人的重要性。
I think one thing that we have to highlight, and I'm hoping will maybe even emerge from this conversation, is that follows are not endorsements.
我认为我们必须强调的一件事，我希望甚至可能从这次谈话中浮现出来，那就是以下内容并非背书。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is actually a real problem.
这实际上是一个真正的问题。
There are academics who have lost their jobs, not necessarily for following certain accounts, but for commenting on certain comment threads.
有些学者失去了工作，不一定是因为关注某些账户，而是因为对某些评论线程发表评论。
A like is a slightly different category because, as the name suggests, it's a like.
“喜欢”是一个略有不同的类别，因为顾名思义，它是“喜欢”。
It sounds like and it's thought of as a vote of approval of what's there.
这听起来像是并且被认为是对现有内容的投赞成票。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But when one's options are just a heart, a follow, or no heart, no follow.
但当一个人的选择只是一颗心，一个跟随，或者没有心，不跟随。
I was a big fan of the thumbs up, thumbs down.
我非常喜欢竖起大拇指，竖起大拇指。
I like the thumbs up, thumbs down because at least you have an option to dissent without getting into online comment battles and things of that sort.
我喜欢竖起大拇指，竖起大拇指，因为至少你可以选择提出异议，而不必陷入在线评论之争和类似的事情。
But listen, I've had people ask me, "Why do you follow so and so?" Because follows are also seen as a sign of support-
但是听着，有人问我：“你为什么追随某人？”因为以下也被视为支持的标志——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because you're adding followers and presumably, in the algorithm, raising prominence to a channel.
因为您正在添加关注者，并且可能在算法中提高了频道的知名度。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm right there with you.
但我就在你身边。
I follow lots of accounts of people who I fundamentally disagree with, but I'm trying to learn.
我关注了很多我根本不同意的人的说法，但我正在努力学习。
And I'm also trying to understand what their capture points are, like why people find them so intriguing.
我还试图了解它们的捕获点是什么，比如为什么人们觉得它们如此有趣。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyway, I'm a learner, I'm a forager like you.
无论如何，我是一个学习者，我和你一样是一个觅食者。
So I-
所以我-
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I'm in the same boat, and every once in a while, I think it's stunning to me.
我在同一条船上，每隔一段时间，我就觉得这对我来说是令人震惊的。
I don't know if you've ever looked at your Instagram statistics.
我不知道你是否看过你的 Instagram 统计数据。
But a colleague of mine actually showed me.
但我的一位同事实际上向我展示了。
I was like, I didn't realize you could look at the effect of each post on follows and unfollows.
我当时想，我没有意识到你可以查看每个帖子对关注和取消关注的效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I didn't realize that.
哦，我没有意识到这一点。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And I think my typical ratio might be two or three to one for a post, so I'm gaining two or three followers for every one that I lose.
我认为我的帖子的典型比例可能是二到三比一，所以每失去一个关注者，我就会获得两到三个关注者。
The idea that I could post anything that would cause someone to unfollow me?
我可以发布任何会导致某人取消关注我的想法吗？
Like if I said something interesting enough that you thought I was worth following, how could one post change your mind about that?
就像如果我说了一些足够有趣的事情，你认为我值得关注，那么一篇帖子怎么会改变你的想法呢？
I think you're too focused on what I think, and maybe not paying attention to how I think was my first reaction to that.
我认为你太关注我的想法了，也许没有注意到我对此的第一反应。
And then my second thought was, well, maybe what's happening here is people show up and they don't realize the foundation of evidence behind the total body of work.
然后我的第二个想法是，好吧，也许这里发生的事情是人们出现了，但他们没有意识到整个工作背后的证据基础。
And so one post strikes them wrong, and they think this person is not credible, or they think that this person has lost sight of what rigorous science is.
因此，一篇帖子给了他们错误的印象，他们认为这个人不可信，或者他们认为这个人忽视了严谨的科学是什么。
I wonder if you've had that experience, too.
不知你是否也有过这样的经历。
I think I make the mistake of taking for granted that anybody who followed me knows that if I post something, I think it's worth thinking about and it's been carefully studied, and I didn't have a dog in the fight.
我认为我犯了一个错误，理所当然地认为任何关注我的人都知道，如果我发布了一些东西，我认为它值得思考，并且经过仔细研究，而且我没有在战斗中。
I read this research and said, "This cleared the bar, not only of an academic journal, but I read the methods, and I found them sound enough that we ought to be discussing this idea." Have you had that experience, too?
我读了这项研究并说：“这不仅为学术期刊扫清了障碍，而且我阅读了其中的方法，我发现它们足够合理，我们应该讨论这个想法。”你也有过这样的经历吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I certainly have, and I should say that I was weaned in an academic culture, three separate mentors, very different styles, all of whom Were excellent mentors, but all of whom taught me that there are phenomenal papers where every bit of information in the paper, and indeed how it's written from start to finish, is just watertight and incredible.
我当然有，而且我应该说，我是在一种学术文化中断奶的，三位独立的导师，风格截然不同，他们都是优秀的导师，但他们都告诉我，有一些非凡的论文，论文中的每一个信息，以及它从头到尾的写作方式，都是无懈可击的，令人难以置信。
And there are other papers that are less watertight, but occasionally there will be papers where one data point in a figure is intriguing enough to consider following that scent trail in your own work.
还有其他论文不那么无懈可击，但偶尔会有一些论文，图中的一个数据点足够有趣，足以考虑在自己的工作中追踪这一气味轨迹。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even if the rest of the paper is kind of eh.
即使论文的其余部分有点呃。
I mean, one data point.
我的意思是，一个数据点。
Now, that doesn't mean taking one data point and casting it out to millions of people on social media as an actionable item is valid.
现在，这并不意味着获取一个数据点并将其作为一项可操作的项目在社交媒体上向数百万人投放是有效的。
That's certainly not what I'm saying.
我当然不是这个意思。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what I do realize, and I'm realizing again now after what you just said, is that indeed, people don't know the context in which what filters are we working with before we bring things forward.
但我确实意识到，而且在你刚才所说之后我现在再次意识到，在我们提出问题之前，人们确实不知道我们正在使用哪些过滤器。
And I think that my belief is that if it's grounded firmly in the scientific method, that's the best starting place.
我认为我的信念是，如果它牢固地扎根于科学方法，那就是最好的起点。
We were talking about that earlier.
我们之前讨论过这个。
And I also understand that scientists differ tremendously in how they look at even the same data in the same paper.
我还了解到，即使是同一篇论文中的相同数据，科学家们的看法也存在巨大差异。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there is no governing body that says-
所以没有管理机构说——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
okay, this paper means blank.
好吧，这张纸意味着空白。
The authors have their interpretation.
作者有他们的解释。
The students have their interpretation.
学生们有他们的解读。
In fact, the course I used to teach to undergraduates, which grew into a very large course, we would learn to ask four questions.
事实上，我以前给本科生讲授的课程后来发展成了一门非常大的课程，我们要学会问四个问题。
What's the question that the authors were asking?
作者问的问题是什么？
Sometimes a sub-question.
有时是一个子问题。
What methods did they use?
他们使用了什么方法？
What did they find?
他们发现了什么？
And then what did they conclude, and does it relate back to the original question?
然后他们得出了什么结论，这与最初的问题有关吗？
And that simple breaking out of four questions of a study is essentially what I do for all studies.
对一项研究的四个问题进行简单的分解基本上就是我对所有研究所做的事情。
But I have my way of doing it-
但我有我的办法——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and it's going to differ from the way that other people do it.
而且它的做法与其他人的做法有所不同。
Social media, I think what's interesting is that I think there's always going to be a core following of a given person, like your followers, that they're going to trust, not necessarily across the board, but there's a general acceptance of ideas coming through.
社交媒体，我认为有趣的是，我认为某个人总会有一个核心追随者，比如你的追随者，他们会信任他们，不一定是全面的，但人们普遍接受所提出的想法。
I think that on social media, it's hard to strike a balance between setting the whole context and the actionable takeaways.
我认为在社交媒体上，很难在设定整体背景和可操作的要点之间取得平衡。
I get criticized a lot for not being concise enough, and I agree, but I also get criticized-
我因为不够简洁而受到很多批评，我同意，但我也受到批评——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
You don't want to miss the nuances
你不想错过细微差别
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for taking things out of context.
断章取义。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-
所以——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It's such a tightrope walk there
那里就像走钢丝一样
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's a tightrope walk, and it's always going to be a tightrope walk, and so I'm going to just keep going, and I know you will, too.
这是走钢丝，而且永远都是走钢丝，所以我会继续走下去，我知道你也会的。
And listen, there's some kids out there, it's surely not going to be foreign, that are going to take our jobs eventually.
听着，外面有一些孩子，他们肯定不会是外国人，他们最终会抢走我们的工作。
And will find a way to do it much better.
并且会找到一种方法做得更好。
Who knows?
谁知道？
Through AI or something like that.
通过人工智能或类似的东西。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Might be robots, yeah.
可能是机器人，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Might be robots.
可能是机器人。
I feel like this is an appropriate place to ask about something else, since we're talking about perception of others and gleaning information, overcoming blind spots.
我觉得这是一个询问其他问题的合适地方，因为我们正在谈论对他人的看法和收集信息，克服盲点。
It's something that you've written about, some years ago now, I guess it would be almost eight years ago now, about authenticity.
这是你几年前写的，我想现在差不多是八年前了，关于真实性。
The word authenticity is such a-
真实性这个词是这样的——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Minefield
雷区
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
such a minefield.
这样的雷区。
I was going to say, has such a positive gravitational pull.
我想说的是，有如此正的引力。
Like, oh, they're really authentic as opposed to, what's the opposite of authentic?
就像，哦，它们真的很真实，而不是，真实的反义词是什么？
Fake.
伪造的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Fake.
假的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
But I think we could all learn to draw some lines between authenticity and over-sharing, right?
但我认为我们都可以学会在真实性和过度分享之间划清界限，对吗？
How do we gauge authenticity?
我们如何衡量真实性？
And we can refer people to that article you wrote some years ago.
我们可以向人们推荐您几年前写的那篇文章。
I think you may have written it differently were it to be written today.
我想如果今天写的话，你的写法可能会有所不同。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I would.
我会的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you talked in that article about somebody who essentially decided to tell everyone that he worked with all the things that he was interested in doing with them, relating to them, and it did not serve him well.
但你在那篇文章中谈到了一个人，他本质上决定告诉所有人，他从事所有他感兴趣的事情，与他们相关，但这对他来说并没有什么好处。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so that's authenticity.
好吧，这就是真实性。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Or them.
或者他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And so then there's this notion of benevolent deception in order to preserve relationship.
因此，为了维持关系，就有了仁慈欺骗的概念。
And importantly, it brought about a word that we don't hear about very often, but that I rather like, which is etiquette.
重要的是，它带来了一个我们不常听到但我很喜欢的词，那就是礼仪。
So for social media, by the way, I apply classroom rules.
顺便说一句，对于社交媒体，我应用课堂规则。
I'll tolerate any comment in the comment section, but not the sort of comment that I wouldn't tolerate in a classroom.
我会容忍评论部分的任何评论，但不会容忍我在课堂上不能容忍的评论。
You can insult me, but if you want to insult other people, I'm not going to tolerate that.
你可以侮辱我，但如果你想侮辱别人，我就不会容忍。
So that's where I draw the line.
这就是我的底线。
Classroom rules.
课堂规则。
There's an etiquette, and I think that etiquette is important.
有一个礼仪，我认为礼仪很重要。
So how do we balance authenticity with etiquette and also with preserving one's public life or private life, right?
那么，我们如何平衡真实性与礼仪以及保护公共生活或私人生活，对吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Authenticity at home seems important.
在家中的真实性似乎很重要。
You could be your complete self at home, except when you want to physically hit your sister or brother because they ate your ice cream.
你可以在家里做完整的自己，除非你因为姐姐或兄弟吃了你的冰淇淋而想打他们。
That's not the right kind of authenticity.
这不是正确的真实性。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
No. No, it isn't.
不，不，不是。
I think it's such a rich and complicated topic.
我认为这是一个丰富而复杂的话题。
I think first thing is I don't want people to be disingenuous, ever.
我认为第一件事是我永远不希望人们不诚实。
But I have a real problem with people saying, as an excuse for disrespectful behavior, "Well, I was just being myself." I think David Sedaris said, "Yes, but yourself is an asshole."
但我确实对人们说“好吧，我只是做我自己”作为不尊重行为的借口感到不满。我想大卫·塞达里斯说：“是的，但你自己就是个混蛋。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So good.
太好了。
So good.
超好的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And I think what people forget is that we all have multiple selves, right?
我认为人们忘记的是我们都有多重自我，对吗？
You've known this your whole career.
你在整个职业生涯中都知道这一点。
We all have multiple identities.
我们都有多重身份。
We also could think about yourself as your thoughts, your emotions, your values, your personality.
我们还可以将自己视为你的思想、你的情感、你的价值观、你的个性。
So which facet of yourself are you trying to be true to?
那么你想忠于自己的哪一方面呢？
I would argue that authenticity without boundaries is careless.
我认为没有界限的真实性是粗心的。
Authenticity without empathy is selfish.
没有同理心的真诚是自私的。
And part of being authentic is caring about other people's values.
真诚的一部分就是关心他人的价值观。
That should be one of your values.
这应该是你的价值观之一。
So what that means concretely is I don't think we should worry about being authentic to what we're thinking and feeling in any given moment.
因此，这具体意味着我认为我们不应该担心在任何特定时刻是否真实地表达我们的想法和感受。
I think what we want to ask is, "What I'm about to do or say consistent with my principles?" And sometimes that means you will be false to your personality in order to be true to your values.
我想我们想问的是，“我要做或说的话符合我的原则吗？”有时这意味着你会为了忠于自己的价值观而欺骗自己的个性。
Sometimes that means you will feel like you're not honoring your thought or your emotion in the moment, but you're doing that with a broader view toward who is the person that I want to be.
有时候，这意味着你会觉得自己没有尊重自己的想法或情感，但你这样做是带着更广阔的视野来看待我想成为的人。
There was a cultural critic, Lionel Trilling, who wrote about the idea of sincerity as opposed to authenticity, and I really like this distinction.
有一位文化评论家莱昂内尔·特里林 (Lionel Trilling) 写过关于真诚而不是真实的概念，我真的很喜欢这种区别。
He said when you try to think about being authentic, you're trying to bring the inside out.
他说，当你试图思考真实时，你就是在试图将内在展现出来。
And to your point, Andrew, that's not always appropriate or effective.
就你的观点而言，安德鲁，这并不总是合适或有效的。
He said, "Sincerity is a little bit more about bringing the outside in.
他说：“诚意就是多一点，把外面带进来。
So pay attention to the person you claim to be, and then try to become that person." And that was a little bit of an aha moment for me.
所以要注意你自称的那个人，然后努力成为那个人。”这对我来说是一个顿悟的时刻。
I realized there are all these people who say, "Well, you should walk your talk." And I think that's good advice.
我意识到很多人都会说：“好吧，你应该言行一致。”我认为这是个好建议。
I might even go a step further and say, maybe you should only talk it if you're already walking it.
我什至可能会更进一步说，也许你应该只在你已经在走的时候才应该谈论它。
Maybe that would help us avoid hypocrisy.
也许这会帮助我们避免虚伪。
But I think the fundamental message here is that we all could be authentic to one part of ourselves and inauthentic to another part, and I think the most important part is to ask, what do I stand for?
但我认为这里的基本信息是，我们所有人都可能对自己的一部分是真实的，而对另一部分则是不真实的，我认为最重要的是要问，我代表什么？
And if what I'm about to communicate is not consistent with that, then maybe I could self-censor.
如果我要传达的内容与此不一致，那么也许我可以进行自我审查。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Such great advice, and I suppose one has to wonder about the role of emotional states.
如此好的建议，我想人们一定会想知道情绪状态的作用。
I think there are career-ending mistakes that people make in a moment, especially online nowadays.
我认为人们会在一瞬间犯下导致职业生涯终结的错误，尤其是现在的网上。
And by the way, this is not just for people who are already established in their career.
顺便说一句，这不仅仅适用于已经在职业生涯中站稳脚跟的人。
I've heard stories, and there seem to be more and more of these in the news, of, for instance, videos of things that people said some years earlier, getting them ejected from college.
我听过一些故事，新闻中似乎也有越来越多的故事，例如，人们几年前说过的话导致他们被大学开除的视频。
A guest on Lex Fridman's podcast who works in the securities world said that one of the lessons that he teaches his kids is to not film themselves doing bad things, and of course, also not to do bad things, but in general, to just not film themselves doing anything because of his understanding of the risk of doing that.
莱克斯·弗里德曼播客上一位在证券界工作的嘉宾表示，他教给孩子们的教训之一就是不要拍摄自己做坏事，当然，也不要做坏事，但总的来说，不要拍摄自己做任何事情，因为他了解这样做的风险。
And we don't want to create a paranoia, but gosh, who you are when you're 14 is a very different person than who you are when you're 27 and when you're 50.
我们不想制造偏执狂，但是天哪，14 岁时的你与 27 岁时和 50 岁时的你是一个非常不同的人。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I hope so.
我希望如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hope so.
我希望如此。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I'd like to think I'm growing.
我想认为我正在成长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so yeah, I think balancing authenticity across the lifespan, and we're expecting young minds to do this, and clearly older minds can't do it either.
所以，是的，我认为在整个生命周期中平衡真实性，我们期望年轻人能够做到这一点，但显然年长的人也无法做到这一点。
This is a pretty well-known case of a chair of the major psychiatry department, we won't name the university, but basically lost his job for a single tweet.
这是一个相当著名的案例，一位主要精神病学系的主任，我们不会透露具体大学的名字，但基本上因为一条推文而失去了工作。
He just was not being thoughtful.
他只是没有考虑周全。
In fact-
事实上——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Wow
哇
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he was being really numb to other people and lost his job.
他对其他人真的麻木了，因此丢了工作。
I don't know him, and it was obvious why he lost it.
我不认识他，但他失败的原因很明显。
I don't think it was debatable, but gosh, you think about somebody who's a chair of psychiatry, which means they're a psychiatrist, which means they're trained to think about thinking, and there you go.
我不认为这是有争议的，但是天哪，你想想一个担任精神病学主席的人，这意味着他们是一名精神病学家，这意味着他们接受过思考的训练，就这样。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It's amazing how common this is, and I think one of the things that's fascinating to me is, I guess this goes back to something we were talking about a moment ago, but I think that when we communicate, we have access to the sum total of all of our thoughts and everything we've ever said that we can remember, and we forget that other people only have a snapshot.
令人惊讶的是，这种情况如此普遍，我认为令我着迷的一件事是，我想这可以追溯到我们刚才讨论的事情，但我认为，当我们交流时，我们可以了解我们所有的想法和我们曾经说过的所有我们能记住的事情的总和，而我们忘记了其他人只有一个快照。
And so one of the questions I like to ask is, if this was the only post that somebody saw of mine-
所以我想问的问题之一是，如果这是有人看到我的唯一帖子-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
...
...
would I be proud of it?
我会为此感到自豪吗？
Would it communicate who I am and who I aspire to be?
它能传达我是谁以及我渴望成为谁吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, that's so good.
哦，那太好了。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
If the answer is no, maybe I should pause before I put that out there.
如果答案是否定的，也许我应该在把它放出来之前暂停一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That is excellent advice.
这是很好的建议。
If it were the only post, like your one and only representing you.
如果这是唯一的帖子，就像你的帖子一样，并且只代表你。
Oh, fantastic.
哦，太棒了。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Now, that could be paralyzing.
现在，这可能会让人瘫痪。
Right?
正确的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
If you're a perfectionist, you'll never post.
如果你是一个完美主义者，你永远不会发帖。
But I think for somebody who's posting regularly, it's a good filter to just ask, am I being thoughtful enough?
但我认为对于经常发帖的人来说，问问自己是否考虑得足够周到是一个很好的过滤器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So good.
太好了。
I won't add anything to that.
我不会对此添加任何内容。
I'll just say so good.
我就说这么好。
Let's talk about potential.
我们来谈谈潜力。
I was in junior high school, and I remember having a social studies teacher who just would go on and on about potential.
我当时正在上初中，我记得有一位社会研究老师，他总是不停地谈论潜力。
She had a special program after school.
放学后她有一个特别的计划。
You could get involved.
你可以参与其中。
Potential.
潜在的。
And we hear about this.
我们听说过这个。
We have untapped potential.
我们还有未开发的潜力。
You hear we're only operating at 40% of our abilities.
您听说我们只发挥了 40% 的能力。
People will say that.
人们会这么说。
The implication is that we have reservoirs of potential that we're just not accessing because we're not doing the right things, thinking the right things.
这意味着我们拥有潜力库，只是因为我们没有做正确的事情、没有思考正确的事情而无法获得这些潜力。
I know you've now researched this topic extensively.
我知道您现在已经广泛研究了这个主题。
You have a new book on this topic.
你有一本关于这个主题的新书。
Tell us about potential.
告诉我们潜力。
Do we all have huge reservoirs of potential that we are not accessing?
我们是否都有巨大的潜力尚未开发？
And of course, I and everyone else wants to know how can we access those.
当然，我和其他人都想知道我们如何才能访问这些内容。
But maybe you could also tell us some of the myths around potential, and tell us about potential.
但也许你也可以告诉我们一些关于潜力的神话，并告诉我们关于潜力的事情。
Such a sticky topic for all the right reasons.
如此棘手的话题是有充分理由的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
It's one of those things where you've had this experience I'm sure many times where you start thinking and talking about a topic and you realize it's been your whole life, but you didn't see it until then.
我确信你有过这样的经历，很多时候你开始思考和谈论一个话题，然后你意识到这就是你的一生，但直到那时你才看到它。
And I feel that way about potential.
我对潜力也有这样的感觉。
I think that I've been passionate about helping people achieve their potential as long as I can remember.
我认为，从我记事起，我就一直热衷于帮助人们发挥潜力。
I think every goal I've ever set has been about stretching my potential in one way or another, or at least realizing it.
我认为我设定的每一个目标都是为了以某种方式扩展我的潜力，或者至少实现它。
And what I've become so struck by as I've studied this topic is we all have hidden potential, but we don't know how to unlock it.
当我研究这个话题时，令我震惊的是我们都有隐藏的潜力，但我们不知道如何释放它。
So why do we often underestimate our own potential?
那么为什么我们常常低估自己的潜力呢？
We judge ourselves by our starting abilities, and this is more common for people with fixed mindsets, but even people with growth mindsets.
我们根据自己的起始能力来判断自己，这对于固定型思维的人来说更为常见，甚至对于具有成长型思维的人也是如此。
You try a new skill, it doesn't go well, and you think, "This is not for me.
你尝试一项新技能，进展并不顺利，你会想：“这不适合我。
I'm not cut out for this." And then it gets worse when other people also, you're not just underestimating yourself, you're also being underestimated by others.
我不适合做这个。”然后，当其他人也同样低估你时，情况会变得更糟，你不仅低估了自己，而且别人也低估了你。
Other people watch you and say, "Yeah, you're not a prodigy.
其他人看着你说：“是的，你不是神童。
You're not a natural.
你不是天生的。
You don't have the talent that it takes." And I think the big myth there is that raw talent is the most important driver of how high people climb.
你没有这方面的天赋。”我认为最大的神话是原始人才是人们攀登高度的最重要驱动力。
It's not.
它不是。
Motivation and opportunity matter more than raw ability for growth.
对于成长来说，动力和机会比原始能力更重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Motivation and opportunity.
动机和机会。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Obviously, everybody starts at a different point, but how close you come to your potential is much more about the character skills you cultivate to improve at improving over time, and then whether you're in a situation where you have access to the knowledge that you need and the tools you need to keep growing.
显然，每个人的起点都不同，但你离自己的潜力有多近，更多地取决于你培养的性格技能，随着时间的推移而提高，然后你是否处于能够获得持续成长所需的知识和工具的境地。
And so, a concrete example of this for me is when I started diving, I was way too late.
因此，对我来说，一个具体的例子是当我开始潜水时，我已经太晚了。
I picked it up as a teenager.
我十几岁的时候就捡起了它。
A lot of the elite divers in the world start by five.
世界上许多优秀的跳水运动员都是从五岁起开始的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Goodness.
善良。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And actually, in China, they're handpicked for body type and sent to a version of diving boarding school where they don't even teach kids how to swim.
事实上，在中国，他们是根据体型精心挑选的，然后被送到潜水寄宿学校，在那里他们甚至不教孩子们如何游泳。
They tie a rope around them so that they can just pull them back after they hit the water in the deep end.
他们在他们身上绑了一根绳子，这样当他们落入深水区时就可以把他们拉回来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What part of their body do they tie a rope around?
他们把绳子绑在身体的哪个部位？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I think it's their waist.
我认为这是他们的腰部。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they're diving with a rope so that when they get in the water, they're not wasting any energy.
所以他们用绳子潜水，这样当他们进入水中时，就不会浪费任何能量。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're just being dragged through the water and out.
他们只是被从水中拖出来。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
That's my understanding of it.
这就是我的理解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
But Brazil, oh, okay, they have to walk, they have to climb.
但是巴西，哦，好吧，他们必须步行，他们必须攀爬。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so there are a bunch of other things they have to do.
好吧，他们还有很多其他事情要做。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah, but the swimming, apparently, is very secondary.
是的，但游泳显然是次要的。
Anyway, so I started really late, and I lacked most of the things that you would want as a diver.
不管怎样，所以我开始得很晚，而且我缺乏作为一名潜水员想要的大部分东西。
I couldn't touch my toes without bending my knees.
如果不弯曲膝盖，我就无法触摸脚趾。
My teammates called me Frankenstein because I was so stiff when I walked.
我的队友叫我弗兰肯斯坦，因为我走路时太僵硬了。
So lacking the flexibility, I have no rhythm.
所以缺乏灵活性，没有节奏。
My coach brought a metronome to practice one day, and I couldn't even keep the beat.
有一天，我的教练带了一个节拍器来练习，我什至都跟不上节拍。
So, you think about diving as a sport of grace.
所以，你认为潜水是一项优雅的运动。
Nope.
没有。
And then I also couldn't jump, and I couldn't twist either.
然后我也不能跳，也不能扭转。
And so it's like you're missing the explosive power.
所以你好像失去了爆发力。
You don't have the athleticism.
你没有运动天赋。
And I think if I had just looked at those abilities, I had no business being a diver, and in fact, no business being an athlete.
我想，如果我只看这些能力，我就没有资格成为一名跳水运动员，事实上，也没有资格成为一名运动员。
I'd already been cut from the middle school basketball team three times.
我已经三次被中学篮球队除名了。
I didn't make the high school soccer team.
我没有入选高中足球队。
Those were the two sports I had poured a decade into.
这是我投入十年之久的两项运动。
Like, this is going nowhere.
就像，这不会有任何进展。
Eric, just the most incredible coach I could ever imagine.
埃里克，是我能想象到的最不可思议的教练。
He said to me on the first day of practice, he said, "Yes, you're missing all these things.
训练第一天他对我说：“是的，你错过了所有这些东西。
But I believe if you pour yourself into this sport, that you could be a state finalist by the time you finish high school." And he saw more potential in me than I saw in myself, and that just lit a fire under me.
但我相信，如果你全身心投入这项运动，那么当你高中毕业时，你可能会成为州决赛选手。”他在我身上看到的潜力比我在自己身上看到的潜力更大，这点燃了我内心的火焰。
And what that translated into is a lot of the behaviors that you and I have both studied.
这转化为你和我都研究过的许多行为。
Setting specific difficult goals for, I want to learn these dives that seem out of reach.
设定具体的困难目标，我想学习这些看似遥不可及的潜水。
For, I want to increase my score over the next three meets by 10 points.
因为，我想在接下来的三场比赛中将自己的分数提高10分。
For, all my limitations notwithstanding, one thing that I can master, that I have total control over is how clean I go into the water.
因为，尽管我有种种限制，但我可以掌握、完全控制的一件事就是我进入水中的干净程度。
I can get a rip entry so that there's no splash, and that's the most important part of a dive.
我可以进入撕裂处，这样就不会溅水，这是潜水中最重要的部分。
And one of the greatest compliments I ever got as a diver was I came out of a meet in, it was a couple years in, I think I was maybe a junior in high school, and one of the judges turned to Eric and said, "All he can do is rip." And Eric said, "So?" I was like, "Yes!"
作为一名跳水运动员，我得到的最伟大的赞美之一就是我从一场比赛中出来，那是几年前的事了，我想我可能是一名高中三年级学生，其中一位评委转向埃里克说，“他所能做的就是撕裂。”埃里克说：“所以呢？”我当时想，“是的！”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's awesome.
太棒了。
It's almost like saying all he can do is win.
这几乎就像在说他所能做的就是获胜。
You know?
你知道？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah, it was a great backhanded compliment, but Eric was like, "Listen, he made the dive.
是的，这是一个很好的反讽恭维，但埃里克说，“听着，他跳水了。
It has a degree of difficulty.
它有一定的难度。
Maybe he didn't jump as high as he wanted.
也许他没有跳到他想要的那么高。
Maybe his tuck wasn't as tight as he wanted.
也许他的褶皱没有他想要的那么紧。
But at the end of the day, that dive disappeared straight up and down into the water.
但到了最后，那次潜水就直接消失在水中了。
You can't not give that a seven." And that ended up serving me really well.
你不能不给七分。”这最终对我很有帮助。
And so I think the broader lesson here for me was Eric said to me, actually last year, I never thought about this.
所以我认为对我来说更广泛的教训是埃里克对我说，实际上去年，我从来没有想过这个。
He said, I never got close to even qualifying for Olympic trials.
他说，我什至从未接近过奥运会选拔赛的资格。
I did not have the talent to be that good, but I got way better than I ever expected.
我没有那么优秀的天赋，但我比我想象的要好得多。
And Eric said to me, he said, "Looking back," he said, "You got further with less talent than any diver I've ever coached." And that was so meaningful to me, and what it reminded me was, my proudest accomplishments were not in the areas where I started out with the most talent.
埃里克对我说，“回想起来，”他说，“你的天赋比我执教过的任何跳水运动员都少。”这对我来说意义重大，它提醒我，我最自豪的成就并不在我最有天赋的领域。
They were in the areas where I had overcome the most obstacles.
它们是我克服了最多障碍的领域。
And I think that, to me, is really what drives people around potential, is to say it's not performance that's motivating, it's a sense of progress.
我认为，对我来说，真正推动人们发挥潜力的因素是，激励的不是表现，而是进步感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that story, and I couldn't agree more.
我喜欢这个故事，我完全同意。
I think Lord knows my favorite topic in science is the course I performed, at least after my freshman year, which was abysmal, least well in the phase when I was doing well and-
我想上帝知道我最喜欢的科学主题是我所学的课程，至少在我大一之后是这样，这门课程很糟糕，在我表现良好的阶段表现最差——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
What class was it?
那是什么课？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was neural development.
这是神经发育。
I now teach neural development.
我现在教授神经发育。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I'm sorry, what?
对不起，什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Neural development.
神经发育。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
How bad were you at it at first?
你一开始有多糟糕？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, well, I have to put it in context.
好吧，我必须把它放在上下文中。
My high school and freshman year of college were abysmal.
我的高中和大学一年级经历很糟糕。
Right?
正确的？
I basically no place being there.
我基本上没有地方在那里。
I can only thank my high school girlfriend for being so wonderful that I followed her off to college and ended up there.
我只能感谢我的高中女友，她是如此优秀，以至于我跟着她上了大学，并最终进入了那里。
Left after my freshman year, came back, and then at that point, it was like a step function.
大一后离开，又回来了，然后在那一点上，它就像一个阶跃函数。
I worked out of fear and excitement and love of the material.
我出于对材料的恐惧、兴奋和热爱而工作。
I was a straight-A student thereafter, but in my senior year, excuse me, I took a course in neural development, which was extremely challenging, and I got a B-plus, and that B-plus still gets me.
此后，我成为了一名全优学生，但在高年级，请原谅，我选修了一门神经发育课程，这门课程极具挑战性，我得到了 B+，而 B+ 仍然让我着迷。
But it's a topic that I love the most.
但这是我最喜欢的一个话题。
It's what I did my graduate thesis on.
我的研究生论文就是这个内容。
It's what I teach at Stanford, among other topics.
这就是我在斯坦福大学教授的内容以及其他主题。
And I like to think now I have, I guess, humility aside, considerable mastery over the material.
我想，我想，除了谦虚之外，我现在已经对材料有了相当程度的掌握。
But it's because I didn't do as well as I would've liked, and I applied myself so much, and I think that it just didn't come naturally to me.
但那是因为我没有做到我想要的那么好，而且我太努力了，我认为这对我来说并不是自然而然的。
And then eventually, over time, you kind of get it, or you get it.
最终，随着时间的推移，你会得到它，或者你得到它。
But it's still my favorite topic because it was that friction point, right?
但这仍然是我最喜欢的话题，因为它是那个摩擦点，对吧？
It's the ratcheting through.
这是棘轮通过。
And there's something, I don't know, that's just so intrinsically satisfying to me.
我不知道，有一些东西让我本质上感到满足。
I used to watch my bulldog mastiff, Costello, chewing on a bone or when he was little, on a brick because he had a kind of a Homer Simpson brain about his object choice to chew on, and he just looked like he was in just total bliss.
我过去常常看着我的斗牛犬科斯特洛咀嚼骨头，或者当他小的时候，咀嚼一块砖头，因为他对咀嚼对象的选择有一种荷马·辛普森的大脑，而且他看起来就像完全幸福。
It was like this effort combined with some intrinsic pleasure of the process.
就好像这种努力与过程中的一些内在的乐趣相结合。
And so I think that when one is ratcheting through something that's hard, it feels so good that it's almost better than the outcome.
所以我认为，当一个人正在努力完成一件困难的事情时，感觉非常好，几乎比结果还要好。
Like it is better than the outcome.
就像它比结果更好。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I think it is, and it's fascinating because this is why I'm Always bothered by people saying, "Play to your strengths." Because if you do that, you will gravitate toward the things that come naturally to you, and you're going to miss out on, very often, the skill that was hard for you to learn, to your point, is one that you end up with greater mastery over because you had to put in the extra effort, and you end up deriving more satisfaction out of the fact that, "This was really tough, and I figured it out." Implicit in your story, and maybe partially explicit in some parts, when I was looking at the character skills that help people realize their potential and really fuel unexpected growth, I ended up finding three that I think are under-discussed and well-supported by science.
我认为是的，这很有趣，因为这就是为什么我总是被人们说的“发挥你的优势”所困扰。因为如果你这样做，你就会被那些对你来说自然而然的事情所吸引，而且你常常会错过那些对你来说很难学习的技能，就你的观点而言，这些技能是你最终会更好地掌握的，因为你必须付出额外的努力，而你最终会从“这真的很难，但我想通了”这一事实中获得更多的满足感。在你的故事中隐含的，也许在某些部分是部分明确的，当我在研究帮助人们发挥潜力并真正促进意想不到的成长的角色技能时，我最终发现了三个我认为尚未得到充分讨论且得到科学充分支持的技能。
I think that basically if you want to reach your potential or achieve more than you think you're capable of, we're looking at becoming a creature of discomfort and embracing things that are unpleasant or awkward for you.
我认为基本上，如果你想发挥自己的潜力或取得超出你认为自己能力的成就，我们就会考虑成为一个不舒服的生物，并拥抱那些对你来说不愉快或尴尬的事情。
That'll be the first thing.
这将是第一件事。
The second is being a sponge and soaking up new information and also filtering out what might not be useful.
第二个是像海绵一样吸收新信息并过滤掉可能无用的信息。
And then the third is being an imperfectionist, which is knowing when to aim for excellence and when to settle for good.
第三个是成为一个不完美主义者，即知道何时追求卓越，何时满足于美好。
And I hear all of those themes in your story.
我在你的故事中听到了所有这些主题。
That was obviously uncomfortable.
这显然是不舒服的。
You got a B+.
你得了 B+。
You don't want to do any more neural development.
你不想再进行任何神经发育。
Not at all.
一点也不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was so frustrating and so exciting to me at the same time.
这对我来说既令人沮丧又令人兴奋。
And then everything I did in the five or seven years that followed was all about learning more about this topic.
接下来的五七年里我所做的一切都是为了更多地了解这个话题。
And it wasn't about performing well or proving myself.
这并不是为了表现出色或证明自己。
I loved the material so much more because of how challenging it was.
我非常喜欢这些材料，因为它很有挑战性。
And I'm grateful to you, Ben Reese, the professor at UC Santa Barbara, incredible neuroanatomist, and teacher of neural development, and laboratory scientist, because I think had I gotten an A, I don't know that I would've fallen in love with it in the same way.
我很感谢你，Ben Reese，加州大学圣塔芭芭拉分校的教授，令人难以置信的神经解剖学家，神经发育老师和实验室科学家，因为我想如果我得到了 A，我不知道我会以同样的方式爱上它。
Isn't that weird?
这不是很奇怪吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
You wouldn't have had to work at it to discover what was fun about it, I imagine.
我想你不必费力去发现它的乐趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, absolutely.
不，绝对是。
And it's still one of my favorite topics to teach and learn about.
它仍然是我最喜欢教授和学习的主题之一。
So you mentioned discomfort, being a sponge/filter, if I got that right.
所以你提到了作为海绵/过滤器的不适感，如果我没说错的话。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And an imperfectionist.
也是一个不完美主义者。
Yeah, tell me more about the imperfectionist piece, because I feel like I've had students in my lab, and I've known people in other domains of life that they're absolutely paranoid about shipping something out-
是的，告诉我更多关于不完美主义者的作品，因为我觉得我的实验室里有学生，而且我认识生活其他领域的人，他们对运送东西绝对偏执 -
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for the world to see it.
让全世界都能看到它。
And, of course, no one wants to put stuff out into the world that isn't right, and God forbid, could be wrong, or that's going to embarrass us.
当然，没有人愿意向世界发布不正确的东西，上帝禁止，可能是错误的，否则会让我们感到尴尬。
So you can understand why people are perfectionists, but I never really understood the extreme perfectionist.
所以你可以理解为什么人们是完美主义者，但我从来没有真正理解过极端的完美主义者。
How do they ever do anything?
他们怎么做任何事情？
And are they happy people?
他们是幸福的人吗？
Because I can't imagine that they are.
因为我无法想象他们是这样的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
No. So Thomas Curran, I think, is the world's leading psychologist studying perfectionism, and if you look at his meta-analyses, perfectionism is a recipe for burnout and depression and anxiety because you're constantly comparing yourself to an ideal that's unachievable.
不。所以我认为托马斯·柯兰是世界上研究完美主义的顶尖心理学家，如果你看一下他的元分析，就会发现完美主义是导致倦怠、抑郁和焦虑的一个原因，因为你不断地将自己与一个无法实现的理想进行比较。
Perfectionists, they do get better grades in school, slightly, but they don't do any better at work than their peers because I think in school you have a predictable outcome.
完美主义者，他们在学校的成绩确实稍微好一点，但他们在工作中并没有比同龄人做得更好，因为我认为在学校你有一个可预测的结果。
You have a general sense of what's going to be on a test, and if you study hard enough, you can come closer to the A+.
您对考试内容有一个大致的了解，如果您足够努力学习，您可以更接近 A+。
Whereas at work, performance is much more nebulous.
而在工作中，绩效则更加模糊。
And so what happens to perfectionists a lot of times is they end up optimizing the things that are predictable and controllable, and then sort of missing the forest and the trees.
因此，完美主义者很多时候会遇到的情况是，他们最终优化了可预测和可控的事情，然后有点错过了森林和树木。
And I think the antidotes, as far as I know, really have to do with calibration.
据我所知，我认为解药确实与校准有关。
So I talked earlier about how I like to ask for a zero to 10 to find out, am I in the ballpark or not?
所以我之前谈到了我如何喜欢要求从 0 到 10 来确定我是否在大致范围内？
Well, one of my biggest liabilities as a diver was I was never satisfied with my score.
嗯，作为一名跳水运动员，我最大的责任之一就是我对自己的成绩从来都不满意。
And one day Eric said to me, "You hear Olympic judges or commentators talk about the perfect 10?
有一天，埃里克对我说：“你听到奥运会评委或评论员谈论完美的 10 名选手吗？
That's a misnomer.
这是用词不当。
If you look at the diving rule book, a 10 is for excellence, not for perfection.
如果你看看跳水规则手册，10 分代表卓越，而不代表完美。
There's no such thing as a flawless dive.
世界上没有完美的潜水。
I can look at dives that have gotten straight tens and point out 19 things that were wrong with them, but they were excellent." And so then we had to define the standards of excellence.
我可以查看那些直接获得十的跳水，并指出他们的 19 个问题，但他们都非常出色。”因此我们必须定义卓越的标准。
So as a recovering perfectionist, somebody who just beat myself up constantly.
因此，作为一个正在康复的完美主义者，一个不断鞭打自己的人。
In fact, we did paper plate awards on my swim team, and one year I was given the If Only award, and there was a little cartoon of me, and it says, "If only I had pointed my left pinky toe, I would've gotten an eight and a half instead of an eight." And that was the story of my diving career, and I did not want to be that person anymore.
事实上，我们为我的游泳队颁发了纸盘奖，有一年我获得了“如果只有”奖，还有一个关于我的小漫画，上面写着：“如果我指向我的左小脚趾，我就会得到八分半，而不是八分。”这就是我的跳水生涯的故事，我不想再成为那样的人了。
And so one of the things I've learned to do is to, when I start anything, if I sit down to write a book, I'm aiming for a nine.
所以我学会做的一件事就是，当我开始做任何事情时，如果我坐下来写一本书，我的目标是九分。
And the reason for that is I'm going to pour a couple of years of my work life into this topic.
原因是我将把几年的工作时间投入到这个主题中。
Hopefully, a lot of people are going to read it, and I want to make sure it's truly the best work I can produce.
希望很多人会阅读它，我想确保它确实是我能创作的最好的作品。
Social media posts, I'm okay with a seven.
社交媒体帖子，我可以接受七。
If I'm always shooting for a nine, I'm not going to post very often.
如果我总是投出九分，我就不会经常发帖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because your nine, your ceiling for nine, or your threshold for nine is so exceedingly high.
因为你的九，你九的上限，或者你九的门槛是如此之高。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It's high.
它很高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And I want it to keep getting higher over time.
我希望它随着时间的推移不断变得更高。
So my idea of a nine today is much more challenging than it was 10 years ago.
所以我今天对 9 的想法比 10 年前更具挑战性。
And I think this is what people probably don't do enough, especially if you're an extreme perfectionist, is they don't realize, okay, let me figure out how important this task is.
我认为这可能是人们做得不够的地方，特别是如果你是一个极端完美主义者，他们没有意识到，好吧，让我弄清楚这项任务有多重要。
And then for this task, a six is sufficient.
对于这个任务，六分就足够了。
So that then I can pour my energy into pulling the seven and a half toward a nine where it really matters.
这样我就可以投入精力将七点半拉向九点，这才是真正重要的。
And inevitably, if you don't do that, what you will do is you will get a bunch of nines on things that are completely trivial.
不可避免的是，如果你不这样做，你就会在一些完全微不足道的事情上得到一堆9。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I went to a high school where we had a couple kids get perfect on the SAT.
我就读于一所高中，那里有几个孩子在 SAT 考试中取得了完美成绩。
The big centerfold list of all the early admissions to all the fancy Ivy League schools, I definitely was not on that list.
所有常春藤盟校的所有早期录取的大名单，我绝对不在该名单上。
I don't even know if I was anywhere near that list.
我什至不知道我是否在那个名单附近。
Probably not.
可能不会。
And some of them have gone on to have terrific lives and seem pretty happy.
他们中的一些人继续过着美好的生活，而且看起来很幸福。
And I know a number of them, and I'm in contact with them.
我认识他们中的一些人，并且与他们保持着联系。
And I think for some of them that performed exceedingly well on standardized tests early on, I hear a bit more dismay in their current life.
我认为，对于他们中的一些人来说，他们早期在标准化测试中表现得非常出色，但我在他们目前的生活中听到了更多的沮丧。
Not all, but I have to imagine there are data on the sort of early high performance being a seed for challenges later on.
不是全部，但我必须想象有数据表明早期的高性能是后来挑战的种子。
Obviously, you don't want the opposite, the sort of what I guess they refer to now as a complete failure to launch, people not meeting the milestones towards being self-sufficient adults.
显然，你不希望出现相反的情况，我想他们现在所说的启动完全失败，人们没有达到成为自给自足的成年人的里程碑。
But, yeah, what are some of the dangers of success when thinking about realizing one's larger potential?
但是，是的，当考虑实现一个人更大的潜力时，成功的一些危险是什么？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Oh, that's such an interesting question.
哦，这是一个很有趣的问题。
Yeah, I think the data on this go both ways.
是的，我认为这方面的数据是双向的。
So, some early success is, it's a motivator.
所以，一些早期的成功是一种动力。
It builds the kind of momentum you were talking about earlier.
它建立了你之前谈到的那种势头。
Goal-setting researchers like Locke and Latham have talked about the high-performance cycle, where you hit a goal, and then that builds your confidence, and then you set a more ambitious goal, and then you reach it, and there's this upward spiral over time.
像洛克和莱瑟姆这样的目标设定研究人员已经谈到了高绩效循环，在这个循环中，你实现了一个目标，然后建立了你的信心，然后你设定了一个更雄心勃勃的目标，然后你实现了它，随着时间的推移，就会出现这种螺旋上升的情况。
But there's also a mountain of evidence that achieving your goals can make you complacent.
但也有大量证据表明，实现目标会让您自满。
And sometimes it's called the fat cat syndrome, where you end up resting on your laurels.
有时这被称为“肥猫综合症”，即你最终会安于现状。
And then there are also competency traps, where you get good at something, and then you keep doing it the way you've always done it, and you don't realize the world has changed around you.
还有一些能力陷阱，你擅长某件事，然后你继续按照你一直做的方式去做，而你没有意识到你周围的世界已经改变了。
I'm allergic to the idea of best practices.
我对最佳实践的想法过敏。
The moment you call a practice best, you've created an illusion that you're done.
当你认为某项练习最好时，你就产生了一种已经完成的错觉。
And the moment, think about pre-COVID.
现在，想想新冠疫情之前的情况。
A lot of companies had really what they thought were effective models for collaboration.
许多公司确实拥有他们认为有效的协作模式。
And all of a sudden, their best practices are not feasible because everybody's working remotely.
突然之间，他们的最佳实践变得不可行，因为每个人都在远程工作。
And they've got to throw that out the window and look for better practices for an evolved world.
他们必须把这种想法扔到窗外，为不断发展的世界寻找更好的做法。
So, I think those are the things I worry about most with early success.
所以，我认为这些是我在早期成功时最担心的事情。
I think that one of the things I would love to see more people do when it comes to reaching potential is to figure out what does my failure budget look like?
我认为，在发挥潜力方面，我希望看到更多人做的一件事就是弄清楚我的失败预算是什么样的？
So, I'll tell you my experience on this.
那么，我就告诉你我在这方面的经历。
I wrote a first book, gave a TED Talk, and pretty soon felt like I was spending 80% of my time saying things I already knew, and I was getting typecast.
我写了第一本书，做了一次 TED 演讲，很快就觉得我花了 80% 的时间在说我已经知道的事情，而且我已经被定型了。
I'm like, "I'm not learning and growing, but I don't feel like I'm contributing new knowledge to the world.
我想，“我没有学习和成长，但我不觉得我在为世界贡献新知识。
What am I going to do about that?" And 2018 rolls around, and I'm like, "You know what?
对此我该怎么办？” 2018 年即将到来，我想，“你知道吗？
I'm going to start a podcast, and that will be my learning mechanism." And I didn't know if it was going to work.
我将开始一个播客，这将是我的学习机制。”我不知道它是否会起作用。
I didn't know how the medium would work for me.
我不知道这种媒介对我来说如何运作。
I didn't know if people were going to want to listen to my voice.
我不知道人们是否愿意听我的声音。
I certainly don't.
我当然不这么认为。
Maybe Morgan Freeman likes the sound of his own voice.
也许摩根·弗里曼喜欢他自己的声音。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like listening to your podcast.
我喜欢听你的播客。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I listen.
我听着。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I also enjoy listening to yours, but I think everybody hates the sound of their voice.
我也喜欢听你的声音，但我想每个人都讨厌他们的声音。
I just wasn't sure for a lot of reasons whether it was going to work.
由于很多原因，我只是不确定它是否会起作用。
And then I thought about it, and I realized, well, all of the pivotal moments in my career have come from taking a risk.
然后我想了想，我意识到，我职业生涯中的所有关键时刻都来自于冒险。
And I thought that I needed to build the confidence in order to do it.
我认为我需要建立信心才能做到这一点。
And I was reflecting on goal-setting research, as one does, and realized the confidence is going to come through doing it.
我正在反思目标设定研究，就像人们所做的那样，并意识到通过这样做会产生信心。
And so let me try it.
那么让我尝试一下。
And I guess what I took away was, if I never fail, it means I'm not challenging myself.
我想我学到的是，如果我从不失败，那就意味着我没有挑战自己。
I'm not embracing discomfort.
我不会拥抱不适。
I'm not being enough of an imperfectionist.
我还不够完美主义者。
So, I actually set a goal that I would start at least one project every year that didn't succeed.
所以，我实际上设定了一个目标，每年至少启动一个没有成功的项目。
And let's be clear, I'm not aiming for failure.
让我们明确一点，我并不是以失败为目标。
What I'm doing is creating an acceptable zone of failure to know that that's going to motivate some risk-taking and some experimentation and hopefully some growth.
我正在做的是创建一个可接受的失败区域，知道这将激发一些冒险和尝试，并希望能带来一些成长。
And I know it's hard for a lot of people to do this in their lives, especially if you have a super demanding boss.
我知道很多人在生活中很难做到这一点，特别是如果你有一个超级苛刻的老板。
But I think we're all better off from a growth and potential standpoint if you succeed on 90% of your projects, that should be a hugely successful year.
但我认为，从增长和潜力的角度来看，如果你的项目 90% 都取得了成功，那应该是非常成功的一年。
If you succeed on 100%, I think you're aiming too low.
如果你100%成功，我认为你的目标太低了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are some of the projects that you are currently spinning in the back of your mind that would be fun, if you're willing to share-
如果你愿意分享的话，你目前正在脑海中思考的一些项目会很有趣——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that for you still strike a little bit of an anxiety chord, like, "Oh, no." I don't know.
因为你仍然会感到有点焦虑，比如“哦，不。”我不知道。
Are you a musician?
你是音乐家吗？
Do you-
你有吗——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Not at all
一点也不
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
listen to music?
听音乐？
All right.
好的。
Are you-
你是——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Can't carry a tune.
无法带节奏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Can't keep a beat.
跟不上节拍了
Nothing.
没有什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you thinking about becoming a musician or exploring playing music?
您是否正在考虑成为一名音乐家或探索演奏音乐？
The reason I ask it that way is, how far into your discomfort zone-
我这样问的原因是，你的不适区有多远——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
do you reach in order to challenge yourself?
你是否为了挑战自己而达到目标？
Because I think that everyone needs to have thresholds.
因为我觉得每个人都需要有门槛。
There are a lot of things that, yeah, I wish I could play a musical instrument, frankly, but I'm not that motivated to do it.
坦率地说，有很多事情我希望我能演奏乐器，但我没有动力去做。
Mostly because I enjoy hearing other people play music so much that I'm perfectly happy.
主要是因为我非常喜欢听别人演奏音乐，所以我非常高兴。
I'm sated.
我已经满足了
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There's also enough good music out there.
那里还有足够多的好音乐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
You don't have to create more.
您不必创建更多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's definitely a lot of great music, yeah.
肯定有很多很棒的音乐，是的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
So, I think there's a micro and a macro version of this.
所以，我认为有一个微观和宏观的版本。
So, on the micro side, in the past year, I did this work-life podcast for five years where I was taking the core of my organizational psychology work and trying to take on a topic and make it interesting and useful to people.
因此，从微观角度来看，在过去的一年里，我做了五年的工作与生活播客，其中我以组织心理学工作为核心，试图探讨一个主题并使其变得有趣且对人们有用。
And then realizing I was feeling constrained just to focus on work.
然后我意识到我感觉自己只能专注于工作。
And as a psychologist, there's lots of other things I want to take on.
作为一名心理学家，我还有很多其他的事情想要承担。
And so we expanded into this second show, "Rethinking." And I have some experiments I'm tempted to try, but I've been really hesitant to do them.
因此我们扩展了第二个节目“重新思考”。我有一些实验很想尝试，但我一直很犹豫是否要去做。
So, did you watch wrestling growing up ever?
那么，你小时候看过摔跤吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Professional wrestling?
职业摔角？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I did watch a little bit of it, and then for whatever reason, in the last year, my good friend Rick Rubin, he's not obsessed, but he is a real devotee.
我确实看了一点，然后不管出于什么原因，在去年，我的好朋友里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin），他并不着迷，但他是一个真正的爱好者。
He's a fan of professional wrestling.
他是职业摔跤的粉丝。
He had me watch some WWE, but even AEW.
他让我看一些 WWE，甚至 AEW。
He was explaining that it's basically physical drama.
他解释说这基本上是肢体表演。
He's explaining why it's so intriguing to him and so informative to him.
他正在解释为什么这对他来说如此有趣且信息丰富。
And then, I'm a big fan of A certain genre of music.
然后，我是某种音乐流派的忠实粉丝。
And Lars Frederiksen from Rancid is a huge wrestling fan.
Rancid 的 Lars Frederiksen 是一位超级摔跤迷。
So now I've got multiple people that I've come into contact with who are telling me all this stuff about wrestling.
所以现在我接触过的很多人都告诉我所有关于摔跤的事情。
So wrestling seems to be cropping up more and more.
因此，摔跤似乎越来越多地出现。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
All right.
好吧。
So I don't know the first thing about wrestling.
所以我对摔跤一无所知。
I think I caught it a few times-
我想我已经抓住过几次了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
...
...
as a kid.
作为一个孩子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Likewise.
同样。
It's Hulk Hogan and a few others passed across the screen.
屏幕上走过的是绿巨人霍根和其他几个人。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Macho Man.
大男子主义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
But the thing that I remember was loving the tag team matches where somebody would get overpowered, and then they pull in somebody to help.
但我记得的一件事是喜欢双打比赛，其中有人会被压倒，然后他们会找人来帮忙。
I think it'd be so interesting if there was a podcast where you take issues that people fundamentally disagree on, and you start a debate, and then somebody can tag in if they want to challenge an argument.
我认为如果有一个播客，你可以提出人们根本不同意的问题，然后开始一场辩论，然后有人可以加入，如果他们想挑战一个论点，那就太有趣了。
And so instead of concentrating on the particular guests, you basically have a problem you're trying to get to the roots of, and you're going to have all these people jump in and hopefully build toward a more insightful perspective on it.
因此，你不是把注意力集中在特定的客人上，而是基本上有一个你想要找出根源的问题，你会让所有这些人参与其中，并希望能够对这个问题建立一个更有洞察力的观点。
I have no idea if this is going to work.
我不知道这是否有效。
I'd really love to try it, and this is the first time I've spoken out loud about it because I'm like, I don't know that I want to see that crash and burn, and yet, why not?
我真的很想尝试一下，这是我第一次大声谈论它，因为我想，我不知道我想看到那种崩溃和燃烧，但是，为什么不呢？
What's the risk?
有什么风险？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's so cool.
我觉得这太酷了。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It'd be fun, right?
会很有趣，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
What topics are you thinking about covering?
您正在考虑涵盖哪些主题？
Because I can think of some pretty controversial topics, but I want to know what the ones you're thinking about are.
因为我能想到一些很有争议的话题，但我想知道你在想什么。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Well, I'm thinking out loud here, but one that I think on the controversial front that could be really rich is to think about policies for trans athletes in sports.
好吧，我在这里大声思考，但我认为在有争议的方面可能真正丰富的是考虑体育界跨性别运动员的政策。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a controversial topic.
这是一个有争议的话题。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Hugely controversial, but also I've talked to some experts on this, I've talked to some trans athletes, and the people who are deep in this do not know what they think the policy should be.
争议很大，但我也与一些专家就此进行过交谈，我与一些跨性别运动员进行过交谈，深陷其中的人不知道他们认为政策应该是什么。
And so I think actually hearing them talk and understanding the complexity of those issues and then maybe hammering out what's a policy you would propose for schools?
因此，我认为实际上听到他们的谈话并了解这些问题的复杂性，然后也许会敲定您将为学校提出的政策是什么？
What would you want for Olympic events?
你希望奥运会项目有什么？
I just think that would be fascinating.
我只是觉得那会很有趣。
And I'd love to moderate that discussion.
我很乐意主持该讨论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Goodness.
善良。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Maybe I wouldn't.
也许我不会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wouldn't.
我不会。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I don't want to bite into that one.
我不想咬那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm glad you would.
我很高兴你愿意。
I wouldn't.
我不会。
That seems like one of the most barbed wire topics one could ever embark on, which is exactly why I'm going to put in my vote.
这似乎是人们所能讨论的最铁丝网话题之一，这正是我要投票的原因。
You absolutely should do this podcast.
你绝对应该做这个播客。
I think it's an amazing idea.
我认为这是一个了不起的想法。
Actually, folks, put in the comments section on YouTube whether or not Adam should do this podcast and that topic in particular.
实际上，各位，请在 YouTube 上的评论部分留言 Adam 是否应该做这个播客，特别是那个主题。
I think it would be amazing because one thing that I keep coming back to in my own mind is that a lot of the controversies out there stem from the fact that we very often have individuals pitted against individuals.
我认为这将是令人惊奇的，因为我不断想起的一件事是，许多争议源于这样一个事实：我们经常让个人与个人竞争。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's so much lost in that.
这其中损失了太多。
And I think about science and going back to the scientific method where we have subfields pitted against subfields when you talk about a field.
我想到了科学，并回到科学方法，当你谈论一个领域时，我们有子领域与子领域的竞争。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There was huge controversy over the structure of DNA, and it wasn't one individual against another.
关于DNA的结构存在着巨大的争议，而且这并不是一个人对抗另一个人。
What you had are small groups, different camps, and there was some partial overlap.
你们所拥有的是小团体、不同的营地，并且有一些部分重叠。
If you read "The Double Helix" there was also a lot of-
如果你读过《双螺旋》，里面还有很多——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Ideals fueling-
理想加油——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
complicated behavior.
复杂的行为。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People entering romantic relationships just to glean information from the other side.
人们进入恋爱关系只是为了从对方那里收集信息。
Human beings not at their finest.
人类还没有达到最好的状态。
But in any event, small panels arguing, competing, teams competing, I think is far more interesting and informative than individuals butting heads.
但无论如何，小小组的争论、竞争、团队竞争，我认为比个人的争论更有趣，也更能提供信息。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I think so too, and another one that I think would be really interesting, people always say, "Great minds think alike." No. Great minds challenge each other to think differently, and we just don't do enough of that.
我也这么认为，还有一个我认为非常有趣的事情，人们总是说，“英雄所见略同”。不。伟大的思想家互相挑战，以不同的方式思考，而我们在这方面做得还不够。
So I've been thinking a lot politically, what if we brought together a bunch of people who are not ideologues but are really interested in pragmatic policy solutions to rewrite the Constitution if we were going to build one today?
所以我在政治上思考了很多，如果我们今天要制定一部宪法，如果我们聚集一群不是空想家但真正对务实的政策解决方案感兴趣的人来重写宪法，会怎么样？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Man, you like to tackle big stuff.
伙计，你喜欢处理大事。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I just-
我只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I love it
不，我喜欢它
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Like what-
就像什么-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
It's a compliment
这是一种赞美
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Well, thank you.
嗯，谢谢。
No, but what are the odds that-
不，但是可能性有多大——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like I said earlier, no weak sauce.
就像我之前说的，没有淡酱。
No weak sauce.
没有弱酱。
You go right for it.
你就去吧。
Listen, these are the issues that people are really activated by because these are really core issues.
听着，这些是人们真正被激活的问题，因为这些是真正的核心问题。
They get down to the autonomic nervous system.
他们深入研究自主神经系统。
They're in the hypothalamus, as we say.
正如我们所说，它们位于下丘脑。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
But I don't think they should be.
但我认为他们不应该这样。
I look at these topics and think, "I just want to get it right." I don't have a vested interest in what the model should be.
我看着这些话题并想：“我只是想把它做好。”我对模型应该是什么没有既得利益。
I just know that even the wisest people of 250 years ago were not prepared to anticipate the world we live in today, and we ought to be constantly, I don't know.
我只知道，即使是 250 年前最聪明的人也没有准备好预测我们今天生活的世界，而我们应该不断地预测，我不知道。
I don't think you should live in a world where you affirm your beliefs.
我认为你不应该生活在一个你肯定自己信仰的世界里。
I think the only way you learn is by continually evolving your beliefs.
我认为你学习的唯一方法是不断发展你的信念。
And so I guess I'm trying to figure out more ways to catalyze that around issues people care about, but I don't care about the issues.
所以我想我正在尝试找出更多方法来围绕人们关心的问题来促进这一点，但我不关心这些问题。
I care about the stretching of thinking and the improving the way that the world works.
我关心思维的延伸和世界运作方式的改进。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'll tell you, if you decide to do this podcast with the tag team format, I love that you gleaned it from watching wrestling- ...
好吧，我告诉你，如果你决定以双打形式制作这个播客，我很高兴你从观看摔跤中收集到它 - ...
a couple of times, around these very controversial issues.
围绕这些非常有争议的问题进行了几次。
I promise you that will be one of the most popular and important podcasts on the planet Earth.
我向你保证这将成为地球上最受欢迎和最重要的播客之一。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Uh-oh.
呃哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There might be podcasts on other planets.
其他星球上可能有播客。
I hear that there are galaxies far, far away with-- They may have podcasts too, may have had them for much longer than we have.
我听说有很远很远的星系——他们可能也有播客，可能比我们拥有播客的时间要长得多。
But that's a winner.
但这是赢家。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Well, maybe I'll try it as a little experiment on the "Rethinking" feed and see if it's an unmitigated disaster.
好吧，也许我会尝试将其作为“重新思考”提要的一个小实验，看看这是否是一场彻底的灾难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you know where my vote lies.
好吧，你知道我的投票在哪里。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I appreciate that.
我很欣赏这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
So, okay.
那么，好吧。
So to go back to your question for a second, on the macro side, I've always thought it would be fun to try to write a sci-fi novel.
回到你的问题，从宏观角度来看，我一直认为尝试写一本科幻小说会很有趣。
And the question I'm wrestling with right now is, is that a good use of my time?
我现在正在思考的问题是，这是否充分利用了我的时间？
There are great sci-fi writers out there.
那里有很多伟大的科幻作家。
There aren't that many social scientists communicating about the topics that I do, and it feels like it might be too much of a diversion.
没有多少社会科学家就我所做的话题进行交流，而且感觉这可能太过分散注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then again, according to your words, you had no talent in diving, but you exceeded all performance metrics by a considerable- amount through motivation and opportunity.
话又说回来，按照你的说法，你在跳水方面没有天赋，但通过动力和机会，你超出了所有绩效指标相当多的水平。
Did I get that right?
我做对了吗？
I vote yes.
我投赞成票。
I haven't read much sci-fi.
我科幻小说读得不多。
Maybe I need to read more sci-fi.
也许我需要读更多的科幻小说。
Are you a fan of sci-fi?
您是科幻迷吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I love sci-fi.
我喜欢科幻小说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It's one of my favorite ways to imagine a better world and also prevent a worse one from emerging.
这是我最喜欢的方式之一，既可以想象一个更美好的世界，又可以防止更糟糕的世界出现。
But I don't know.
但我不知道。
There's a part of me that thinks, all right, there's Root Bernstein and colleagues did this.
我心里有一部分认为，好吧，鲁特·伯恩斯坦和他的同事们做到了这一点。
Do you know this research on Nobel Prize-winning scientists and what differentiates them from their peers?
您知道这项针对诺贝尔奖获得者科学家的研究以及他们与同行的不同之处吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, but being the son of a physicist and having been surrounded by, just by circumstance, a number of Nobel Prize winners when I was a kid, young kid, I'm very curious to know what this research says.
不，但是作为一名物理学家的儿子，并且在我还是个孩子的时候，由于环境的原因，我周围都是许多诺贝尔奖获得者，我非常想知道这项研究的内容。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
There are many themes you could glean from it, but the thing that really jumped out at me is the Nobel Prize winners are more likely to have artistic hobbies.
你可以从中收集到很多主题，但真正让我惊讶的是诺贝尔奖获得者更有可能有艺术爱好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Feynman certainly did.
费曼确实做到了。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yep.
是的。
There's a long list of them, but if you break it down in the data, it was they're twice as likely as their peers to play a musical instrument.
他们的名单很长，但如果你仔细分析数据，就会发现他们演奏乐器的可能性是同龄人的两倍。
They're seven times as likely to draw or paint.
他们画画或绘画的可能性是其他人的七倍。
They're 12 times as likely to do poetry or fiction, creative writing.
他们从事诗歌、小说、创意写作的可能性是其他人的 12 倍。
And get this, 22 times as likely as their peers, 22, to dance, act, or yes, perform as magicians.
跳舞、表演，或者是的，扮演魔术师的可能性是同龄人（22 岁）的 22 倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well-
嗯-
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
As a former magician, I was very excited by this, Reed.
作为一名前魔术师，我对此感到非常兴奋，里德。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I wasn't going to ask about magic, but let's talk about it.
好吧，我不想问魔法，但我们来谈谈吧。
I was on vacation with, every year, I take my sister to New York for her birthday and my birthday because our birthdays are close together.
每年我都在度假，我都会带我姐姐去纽约庆祝她和我的生日，因为我们的生日很接近。
And we went and saw a magician mentalist by the name of Asi Wind.
我们去见了一位名叫阿斯风的魔法师。
Asi, I think is the correct pronunciation, who just like the last time I saw him, absolutely blew my mind.
阿西，我认为是正确的发音，他就像我上次见到他一样，绝对让我大吃一惊。
There's no way, it's not magic.
没办法，这不是魔法。
Of course, I know it's not magic.
当然，我知道这不是魔法。
But my understanding is that there's some things that he and other great mentalists and magicians do where they are not absolutely certain of the outcome.
但我的理解是，他和其他伟大的心灵学家和魔术师所做的一些事情，他们并不能绝对确定结果。
They're playing, it's probabilistic.
他们在玩，这是概率性的。
And so there's a risk and a thrill for them, too, and that they're also creating memories and erasing memories, and that's something that we-- I may host Asi on the podcast because-
所以他们也有风险和兴奋，他们也在创造记忆和删除记忆，这就是我们——我可能会在播客上主持阿西，因为——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
That'd be fun
那会很有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he's very effective at creating memories and erasing memories.
他在创造记忆和消除记忆方面非常有效。
That's a lot of what he does, and he has tactics to do that.
他做了很多事情，而且他有策略来做到这一点。
In any event, I wasn't going to ask about magic, but I know that you were a professional magician at one point in your life, and that you did this presumably because you enjoy doing it.
无论如何，我不会问魔术，但我知道您在一生中曾经是一名职业魔术师，您这样做大概是因为您喜欢这样做。
But getting beyond the sort of pull the rabbit out of the hat or- ...
但超越那种从帽子里变出兔子的方式，或者……
identify the card that the person picked out of the shuffled stack, what is it and what was it about magic that intrigues you, and does it inform anything about the work that you do now?
识别该人从洗过的牌堆中挑选的卡片，它是什么以及魔法的什么内容引起了您的兴趣，它是否告诉您有关您现在所做的工作的任何信息？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It does, yeah.
确实如此，是的。
I think when I started, I was 12, and it was just fun, and I was looking for a way to entertain other people and entertain myself in the process, and then it became a challenge.
我想当我开始的时候，我12岁，这很有趣，我一直在寻找一种方法来娱乐别人，并在这个过程中娱乐自己，然后它就变成了一个挑战。
Can I learn this new skill, and can I master this trick?
我能学会这个新技能吗？我能掌握这个技巧吗？
I think the nerdiest thing I did in college was I started a magic club with David Kwong, who is a stellar magician and a cruciverbalist, as he calls it.
我认为我在大学里做过的最书呆子的事情就是我和邝大卫（David Kwong）创办了一个魔术俱乐部，他是一位出色的魔术师，正如他所说的那样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cruciverbalist.
十字架主义者。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
He does magic crossword puzzles, essentially, that I can't do it justice.
从本质上讲，他会玩神奇的填字游戏，而我却无法做到这一点。
You have to see it.
你必须看到它。
It's unreal.
这是不真实的。
And I watched him for our first performance together and realized one of us is going to make it as a magician, and it's not me.
我看了他我们第一次一起表演，意识到我们中的一个人将成为一名魔术师，但不是我。
He's outstanding.
他很出色。
Anyway, the way it figures into my work now is I think so much of good science communication is misdirection.
不管怎样，我现在的工作是这样的，我认为很多好的科学传播都是误导。
And it's the same skill I use as a magician.
这和我作为魔术师所使用的技能是一样的。
If I told you that the card you picked was about to disappear from the deck and appear on the window, you would not be nearly as intrigued as if it happened by surprise.
如果我告诉你，你选择的那张牌即将从牌堆中消失并出现在窗口上，你不会像它突然发生那样感兴趣。
And I think the same is true when we communicate knowledge.
我认为当我们交流知识时也是如此。
I think it's actually why so many of my posts, you flagged this earlier, so many of my posts start with, "This thing is not what you think.
我认为这实际上就是为什么我的很多帖子，你之前标记了这一点，我的很多帖子都以“这件事不是你想的那样。
It's actually this other thing." I think that challenging conventional wisdom, questioning assumptions is what surprises people, and then leads them to think either I have something to learn, or oh no, I got to put up a shield because my beliefs are being challenged or attacked.
这实际上是另一件事。”我认为挑战传统智慧、质疑假设会让人们感到惊讶，然后让他们认为我有东西要学，或者哦，不，我必须竖起盾牌，因为我的信念受到挑战或攻击。
And I think the art form of magic was always about creating a surprise that would delight people, as opposed to leading people to feel like they were tricked or duped or manipulated.
我认为魔术的艺术形式总是要创造一个让人们高兴的惊喜，而不是让人们感觉自己被欺骗、欺骗或操纵。
And so I think the challenge for me is to say, okay, I want to figure out what do we know from behavioral science, mostly focusing on psychology because that's my core expertise.
所以我认为对我来说面临的挑战是说，好吧，我想弄清楚我们从行为科学中知道了什么，主要关注心理学，因为这是我的核心专业知识。
What do we know that's actually different from most intuition?
我们知道什么实际上与大多数直觉不同？
And then how do I explain that in a way that surprises people but leads them to say, "Oh, that's so interesting," as opposed to, "That's wrong," and then want to fight about it?
然后我该如何解释这一点，既让人们感到惊讶，又让他们说：“哦，那太有趣了”，而不是“那是错的”，然后想要为此争论？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's almost as if you give them the experience of what you're trying to teach them so that the, "Oh, that's wrong," can't be the available response.
这就好像你给了他们你想要教给他们的东西的经验，这样他们就不会得到“哦，那是错的”的回应。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because in magic, everyone knows it's magic, just like with professional wrestling folks, by the way.
因为在魔术中，每个人都知道它是魔术，就像职业摔跤手一样。
There's some prior understanding of what's going to happen.
对将要发生的事情有一些预先的了解。
Maybe they go off script, but I think that's actually part of the interest in professional wrestling for those that are extreme fans of professional wrestling, is that they almost want to wonder about whether or not some of it is not in the plan.
也许他们脱离了剧本，但我认为这实际上是那些职业摔跤的极端粉丝对职业摔跤感兴趣的一部分，他们几乎想知道其中的一些内容是否不在计划中。
It's a suspension of reality-
这是对现实的悬置——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that they seem to enjoy.
他们似乎很享受。
Because if you know something's fake or-- Well, I should be more careful about my language.
因为如果你知道某些东西是假的或者——嗯，我应该更加小心我的语言。
With magic, like when I went to see Asi, I don't think it's actual magic, but he's able to give the illusion of magic.
对于魔法，就像我去见阿西时，我不认为那是真正的魔法，但他能够给人一种魔法的幻觉。
The real illusion is that it's magic, right?
真正的幻觉是它的魔法，对吧？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not the illusion of making the card hop to somewhere else in the room.
这并不是让卡片跳到房间其他地方的错觉。
And he is phenomenal, and I highly recommend people go see his show if they get the opportunity.
他非常出色，我强烈建议人们如果有机会就去看他的演出。
I think they're doing a documentary about him now, actually.
实际上，我认为他们现在正在制作一部关于他的纪录片。
It'll be in some Netflix stuff as well.
它也会出现在 Netflix 的一些内容中。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Can't wait.
等不及了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's the illusion that magic exists that's so exciting.
但正是魔法存在的幻觉才如此令人兴奋。
So with science communication, I always aim for four things.
因此，在科学传播方面，我始终致力于四件事。
I don't always achieve them, but-- and I think you do as well, if I may, that a topic be interesting, clear, ideally actionable, but not always, and the quadfecta is when it's also surprising.
我并不总是能实现这些目标，但是——如果可以的话，我认为你也能做到这一点，一个主题是有趣的、清晰的、理想的可操作性，但并非总是如此，而四重奏就是当它也令人惊讶的时候。
So interesting, clear, actionable, and surprising sort of is the ultimate if there's sort of a, like a, "Oh, I didn't realize that." But it's hard to find data points that satisfy all four criteria.
如果有某种“哦，我没有意识到这一点”，那么有趣、清晰、可操作且令人惊讶的就是终极的。但很难找到满足所有四个标准的数据点。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
All four.
全部四个。
Yes, and the surprising is the least important, by far.
是的，到目前为止，令人惊讶是最不重要的。
I assume table stakes is it's rigorous.
我认为赌注是严格的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, well, okay, sitting underneath all four of those points are that it's actual science, right?
哦，好吧，好吧，所有这四点的背后都是它是真正的科学，对吧？
Someone didn't just say it, right?
刚才不是有人说的吧？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not conjecture or theory.
这不是猜想或理论。
So that means that there's data to support it, and that the data were collected with the appropriate amount of rigor.
因此，这意味着有数据支持它，并且数据是以适当的严格性收集的。
Right.
正确的。
So there's a reservoir of stuff that sits underneath that as a foundation.
因此，在其下方有一个储存库作为基础。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes.
是的。
So given the baseline of rigor, how do I find what's interesting, clear, actionable, and hopefully surprising?
因此，考虑到严格的基线，我如何找到有趣的、清晰的、可操作的、并且希望令人惊讶的东西呢？
Although, okay, I would make a case.
不过，好吧，我会举个例子。
There's a classic article that Murray Davis wrote, one of my all-time favorites.
默里·戴维斯（Murray Davis）写了一篇经典文章，这是我一直以来最喜欢的文章之一。
He was a sociologist who wrote a paper called "That's Interesting." And he opened the paper by saying, "Ideas live not because they're true, but because they're interesting." Which decimated one of my core beliefs.
他是一位社会学家，写了一篇名为“这很有趣”的论文。他在报纸开头说道：“想法之所以存在，不是因为它们是真实的，而是因为它们很有趣。”这摧毁了我的核心信念之一。
I thought it was accuracy that drove people's beliefs.
我认为正是准确性推动了人们的信念。
And he said, "No. Ideas live because they're interesting." And then he goes to build an index of the interesting to explain when people are intrigued.
他说：“不。想法之所以存在，是因为它们很有趣。”然后他建立了一个有趣的索引，以解释人们何时感兴趣。
And his case is that most of interest is surprise.
他的观点是，最感兴趣的是惊喜。
And he breaks down all the ways that you can turn conventional wisdom upside down.
他还分解了所有可以颠覆传统智慧的方法。
You can say that something you thought was bad was actually good, or vice versa.
你可以说你认为不好的事情实际上是好的，反之亦然。
You can argue that something you thought was homogeneous is actually heterogeneous.
你可以争辩说，你认为同质的东西实际上是异质的。
You could argue that something you thought was individual was actually a collective phenomenon, or vice versa.
你可以争辩说，你认为是个体的东西实际上是一种集体现象，反之亦然。
And he's got this wonderful breakdown of all the ways of being interesting.
他对所有有趣的方式进行了精彩的分析。
And he's the one who made the distinction between ideas that challenge weakly held assumptions intriguing you, and strongly held assumptions sort of offending you.
他区分了那些挑战那些令你着迷的弱假设的想法和那些冒犯你的强烈假设的想法。
But I think from Davis's view, and I think he's right, a huge amount of interest is surprise.
但我认为从戴维斯的角度来看，我认为他是对的，巨大的兴趣是令人惊讶的。
But I don't think it's the only driver of interest.
但我不认为这是唯一的兴趣驱动因素。
So I might take your criteria and say, okay, we start with rigor.
所以我可能会按照你的标准说，好吧，我们从严格开始。
We want to go to interest, clarity, and actionability.
我们希望追求兴趣、清晰度和可操作性。
How do we get to interest?
我们怎样才能产生兴趣呢？
Let's build a sub-model of the factors that drive interest, and surprise might have the biggest beta weight in the regression equation.
让我们建立一个引起兴趣的因素的子模型，惊喜可能在回归方程中具有最大的贝塔权重。
But what else?
但还有什么？
What else drives interest?
还有什么可以激发兴趣？
I have a couple hypotheses.
我有几个假设。
I want to hear yours.
我想听听你的。
You've been doing this actively, and highly effectively.
你一直在积极、高效地做这件事。
Beyond surprise, what else interests people in your content?
除了惊讶之外，人们对您的内容还有什么兴趣？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anything that draws on self-reflection for them.
任何能让他们自我反思的事情。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Boom.
繁荣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think we all have an innate desire to better understand ourselves.
我认为我们都有一种与生俱来的渴望，想要更好地了解自己。
Why we work the way we do, why we don't work as well as we would like to in certain domains.
为什么我们按照自己的方式工作，为什么我们在某些领域的工作效果不如我们所愿。
And cast understanding on our experiences of others, too, like, "Oh, now it makes sense." I'm going back to the Conti episodes, but we did several of them, so I think it's appropriate.
并根据我们对其他人的经历进行理解，就像，“哦，现在它有道理了。”我要回到孔蒂的剧集，但我们做了其中的几集，所以我认为这是合适的。
To learn from him that narcissism is envy.
向他学习，自恋就是嫉妒。
It represents an extreme deficiency in the pleasure.
它代表着快乐的极度缺乏。
Narcissists can have an extreme pleasure drive, but they always feel like they have far less than they would like to have, and that others have far more of it because they don't have that same yearning for it, right?
自恋者可能有一种极度的快乐冲动，但他们总是觉得自己拥有的远远少于他们想要拥有的，而其他人拥有的却多得多，因为他们没有同样的渴望，对吗？
And so that narcissism at its core is deep envy.
因此，自恋的核心是深深的嫉妒。
That to me was like, wow.
对我来说就像是，哇。
And to realize that and to now understand that all this discussion that you hear out there about narcissists, everyone calling other people narcissists, that there are genuine narcissists out there, and what they really suffer from is an extreme deficit in pleasure, and they're constantly envious of others.
认识到这一点，现在明白，你听到的所有关于自恋者的讨论，每个人都称其他人为自恋者，那里有真正的自恋者，他们真正遭受的是快乐的极度缺乏，他们总是嫉妒别人。
It reframed everything I thought about narcissists, about them being overbearing, which they can be, and often are, et cetera.
它重新定义了我对自恋者的一切看法，关于他们的专横，他们可以，而且经常如此，等等。
So I think it's also anything that leads to like, "Oh, I can navigate narcissists better with that."
所以我认为这也是任何导致“哦，我可以用它更好地引导自恋者”的事情。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Well, that checks all your boxes.
好吧，这检查了你所有的方框。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It's very surprising because it's not the way we normally understand narcissism.
这非常令人惊讶，因为这不是我们通常理解自恋的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
But I think you hit on, for me, what's the maybe even-- It's at least as important as surprise, maybe more so, is self-relevance.
但我想你突然想到了，对我来说，甚至可能是什么——它至少和惊喜一样重要，也许更重要的是自我相关性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And it doesn't have to be actionable, right?
而且它不一定是可操作的，对吧？
It has to, in a lot of cases, just help you understand or make sense of something that's been puzzling or that's sort of-- I'm almost always surprised when I say something from, "Here's a synthesis of research.
在很多情况下，它必须只是帮助你理解或理解一些令人困惑的事情，或者当我说“这是研究的综合”时，我几乎总是感到惊讶。
Here's a meta-analysis." And I think it's kind of obvious, and people get excited about it because it gave them language to describe something they had felt, but they didn't know how to articulate or talk about.
这是一项荟萃分析。”我认为这是显而易见的，人们对此感到兴奋，因为它给了他们语言来描述他们所感受到的东西，但他们不知道如何表达或谈论。
And I think this is why most of the most popular TED Talks are about human behavior, because people are interested in people.
我认为这就是为什么大多数最受欢迎的 TED 演讲都是关于人类行为的，因为人们对人感兴趣。
And if you learn something about you or about others, you don't have to immediately do anything with that to find it intriguing and even useful, because it enriched your worldview.
如果你了解了一些关于你自己或他人的事情，你不必立即做任何事情就能发现它有趣甚至有用，因为它丰富了你的世界观。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A recent guest on this podcast, we haven't aired it yet, but maybe it'll be out by the time this airs, was with Lisa Feldman Barrett.
最近这个播客的嘉宾是丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特 (Lisa Feldman Barrett)，我们还没有播出，但也许在播出时就会播出。
She's a psychologist-
她是一位心理学家——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Psychologist turned neuroscientist
心理学家转型为神经科学家
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Studies emotion and-
研究情绪和——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Emotion, of course
当然是情感
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yeah, and she described how in certain cultures, there's a language for subcategories of emotions.
是的，她描述了在某些文化中如何有一种表达情感子类别的语言。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Emotional granularity.
情感粒度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So, she described a word in Japanese, I don't recall what the word was, that describes the feeling of sadness that one has after getting a particularly bad haircut.
所以，她用日语描述了一个词，我不记得这个词是什么了，它描述了一个人在剪了一个特别糟糕的发型后的悲伤感觉。
Something that I don't think-
有件事我不认为——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you or I are familiar with, but I'm familiar with from my experience of romantic partners being really unhappy about their haircut.
你或我都熟悉，但我是从我的浪漫伴侣对他们的发型非常不满意的经历中熟悉的。
And you're like, you're sad, but by having a specific word for a specific experience, people feel less alone, and the feeling passes more quickly in time.
你会说，你很伤心，但通过用特定的词来表达特定的经历，人们会感觉不那么孤独，而且这种感觉会随着时间流逝得更快。
And then she gave some other examples from German and from Scandinavian languages and so forth.
然后她举了一些来自德语和斯堪的纳维亚语言等的其他例子。
And I find this so interesting.
我觉得这很有趣。
It's like the moment people hear that they are not alone in an experience, there's nothing actionable about it, but it creates a cognitive shift Thereafter, in which they suffer less or may feel more connected to others.
就好像当人们听说他们在一次经历中并不孤单的那一刻，没有什么可采取行动的，但它会产生一种认知转变，使他们遭受更少的痛苦，或者可能感觉与他人有更多的联系。
I think it's really a beautiful example of exactly what you're referring to.
我认为这确实是您所指的一个很好的例子。
Like, when we learn about something and we identify with it, it's powerful.
就像，当我们了解某件事并认同它时，它是强大的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It's very powerful.
它非常强大。
And I think psychologists often say, "Name it to tame it." Affect labeling is one of the most effective emotion regulation strategies.
我认为心理学家经常说，“给它命名来驯服它。”情感标签是最有效的情绪调节策略之一。
When we talked about distraction and reframing earlier, I should've said there's a third strategy, which is literally just to describe what you're feeling.
当我们之前讨论分散注意力和重新构建时，我应该说还有第三种策略，它实际上只是为了描述你的感受。
It seems to allow people then to reason with and process whatever they're feeling, as opposed to allowing the feeling to control them.
它似乎允许人们推理并处理他们的感受，而不是让感觉控制他们。
And I probably got the clearest sense of this in 2021.
我可能在 2021 年对此有了最清晰的认识。
I read a "New York Times" article on languishing, the feeling of meh or blah.
我读过《纽约时报》的一篇文章，内容是关于萎靡不振，即乏味或乏味的感觉。
And I have never had any article I wrote resonate like this.
我写的文章从来没有像现在这样引起共鸣。
And all the posts that tagged me were just like, "It me.
所有标记我的帖子都像这样：“是我。
It us." And it was like these one and two-word reactions, and I don't think it was the content that mattered to people, it was just having the term.
是我们。”就像这些一两个词的反应一样，我认为对人们来说重要的不是内容，而是这个词。
All of a sudden, people realized, this was originally Corey Keyes' research that I was referencing.
突然间，人们意识到，我引用的这原本是科里·凯斯 (Corey Keyes) 的研究。
It had been a light bulb for me to say, if you think about the spectrum of wellbeing, this is related to your mental illness versus mental health distinction.
我想说的是，如果你考虑一下幸福感的范围，这与你的精神疾病与心理健康的区别有关。
Those are two extremes of the continuum, and on one end we have depression and burnout.
这是连续体的两个极端，一方面我们有抑郁和倦怠。
On another end, we have wellbeing and flourishing.
另一方面，我们拥有幸福和繁荣。
Languishing lives right in the middle.
憔悴的生活就在中间。
As Corey describes it, "It's the absence of wellbeing." So you're not depressed, you still have hope.
正如科里所描述的，“这是缺乏幸福感。”所以你并不沮丧，你仍然有希望。
You're not burned out, you still have energy.
你并没有精疲力尽，你仍然有能量。
But you're not at peak functioning.
但你的机能还没有达到最佳状态。
You're missing a sense of purpose.
你缺少一种使命感。
You feel like you're stagnating and you're empty.
你感觉自己停滞不前并且空虚。
And there was something about just saying the word languishing that led people to realize, yeah, that's a thing, and of course, we're languishing.
只要说出“衰弱”这个词，就会让人们意识到，是的，这是一件事，当然，我们正在衰弱。
We're standing still in the middle of a global experiment that no one opted into, which violates all rules of consent by science last time I checked.
我们正站在一场没有人选择的全球实验中，这违反了我上次检查时所有的科学同意规则。
But I think that that's something that probably is underrepresented when we're trained to communicate as scientists, to say one of the most valuable things we do is we give people language to talk about things, and I think that's a massive part of your impact is-- This is one of the big things I've learned from you, Andrew, is I used to be a little bit dismissive of cognitive neuroscience in particular.
但我认为，当我们接受科学家沟通训练时，这一点可能没有得到充分体现，可以说，我们所做的最有价值的事情之一就是我们为人们提供谈论事物的语言，我认为这是你影响的很大一部分——安德鲁，这是我从你那里学到的重要事情之一，尤其是我曾经对认知神经科学有点不屑一顾。
I thought understanding the brain has not taught me that much about the mind.
我认为了解大脑并没有教会我太多关于心灵的知识。
Like being able to trace-- Let's take a simple example.
就像能够追踪——举一个简单的例子。
Like when I read Joe Ledoux's research, being able to trace certain amygdala responses as the root of how people deal with fight or flight and threat.
就像当我读到乔·勒杜克斯的研究时，我能够追踪某些杏仁核的反应，作为人们如何应对战斗、逃跑和威胁的根源。
I'm like, "I don't know that that helped me that much.
我想，“我不知道这对我有多大帮助。
If I could just describe fight or flight, do I need the amygdala?" And you've convinced me I was wrong about that, because when they understand the neurological substrates of their thoughts, feelings, and actions, they believe them more.
如果我只能描述战斗或逃跑，我还需要杏仁核吗？”你让我相信我在这一点上是错的，因为当他们了解他们的想法、感受和行为的神经基础时，他们会更加相信它们。
They're like, "Oh, there is a mechanism for this.
他们就像，“哦，有一个机制可以做到这一点。
It's being produced inside my head, and even though I can't see it, it's there and it can be studied with the tools of science." I think that's a really big deal, and I really regret the fact that I didn't spend more time on cognitive neuroscience because I think I'd be a better psychologist today.
它正在我的脑海中产生，尽管我看不到它，但它就在那里，并且可以用科学工具进行研究。”我认为这真的很重要，我真的很遗憾我没有花更多的时间在认知神经科学上，因为我认为今天我会成为一名更好的心理学家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, well, again, thanks for the kind words.
哦，好吧，再次感谢您的客气话。
I think that a fortunate evolution in our fields, or even field, if I may, over the last 10 years is that whereas neuroscience itself even needs to be subdivided into neuroanatomy and then neurophysiology, it's lumped into all neuroscience.
我认为，在过去的十年里，我们的领域，甚至是领域（如果可以的话）的一个幸运的演变是，尽管神经科学本身甚至需要细分为神经解剖学和神经生理学，但它却被归入所有神经科学中。
But it now includes psychology, computational neuroscience, cognitive neuroscience.
但现在它包括心理学、计算神经科学、认知神经科学。
I consider us, we have different perspectives and different training, obviously, but doing a lot of the same things, just using different dissection tools-
我认为我们，显然我们有不同的观点和不同的训练，但做很多相同的事情，只是使用不同的解剖工具 -
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and different language-based tools.
以及不同的基于语言的工具。
And listen, what you've done, I won't even say masterfully, just with extreme virtuosity, is to wrap your hands around such an enormous literature related to psychology.
听着，你所做的，我什至不会说是精湛的，只是凭借极高的技巧，就是将你的双手掌握在如此庞大的与心理学相关的文献中。
I mean, the human mind and behavior and thought processes and emotions and potential and so many topics, and to extract the most valuable gems from that literature and communicate them in a way that anyone can understand.
我的意思是，人类的思想、行为、思维过程、情感和潜力等等许多主题，并从文献中提取最有价值的宝石，并以任何人都能理解的方式传达它们。
And it's an extreme gift to be able to do that, and it's clear it's working because, like you mentioned, this article on languishing, which we will provide a reference to or a link to in our caption because I want to go read that now.
能够做到这一点是一种极端的天赋，而且很明显它正在发挥作用，因为就像你提到的那样，这篇关于萎靡不振的文章，我们将在标题中提供参考或链接，因为我现在想阅读这篇文章。
I'm always struck by this feeling of like, I'm not tired, but I've got tons to do, but why do I just want to sit here for a f-- And I'm like, "Maybe I need to sit here." But then you get into all the, like, the, well, okay, but there's a lot to do.
我总是被这种感觉所震撼，我不累，但我还有很多事情要做，但为什么我只想坐在这里发呆——我想，“也许我需要坐在这里。”但随后你就会遇到所有的事情，比如，好吧，但是还有很多事情要做。
There's a lot of get up and go.
有很多起床和走动的事情。
I don't want to waste my life.
我不想浪费我的生命。
And yeah, rest is good, too.
是的，休息也很好。
But I think languishing is something that I definitely can resonate with that.
但我认为，我绝对能与萎靡不振产生共鸣。
So when I had a bulldog, it felt a lot easier to do because he was always languishing.
所以当我养了一只斗牛犬时，感觉容易多了，因为他总是在萎靡不振。
But do you ever just languish, or are you busy enough that you just feel like you're always a forward center of mass?
但你是否曾经感到疲倦，或者你是否太忙以至于感觉自己始终是一个前进的中心？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I think everybody languishes.
我想每个人都会感到沮丧。
I think it's part of the human condition, and I think it might even be evolutionarily adaptive.
我认为这是人类状况的一部分，我认为它甚至可能具有进化适应性。
Because I remember another sort of mind-altering idea.
因为我记得另一种改变思想的想法。
I remember reading Randy Nesse's argument that mild depression could be evolutionarily functional.
我记得读过兰迪·内斯的论点，即轻度抑郁症可能具有进化功能。
That obviously clinical depression is debilitating in a lot of ways.
显然，临床抑郁症在很多方面都会使人衰弱。
But low-grade sadness, Lincoln's melancholy, we know one of the things it can do is broaden your field of vision.
但是低级的悲伤，林肯的忧郁，我们知道它能做的事情之一就是拓宽你的视野。
And for many people, sadness is a signal that something is not working, and it can motivate problem-solving.
对于许多人来说，悲伤是某件事不起作用的信号，它可以激发解决问题的动力。
It can, in some cases, open access to new perspectives.
在某些情况下，它可以打开新视角的大门。
Unfortunately, those potential benefits of sadness are often overridden by the motivational cost, and also the fact that you now spend all this time regulating your sadness and wondering why you're sad, right?
不幸的是，悲伤的这些潜在好处常常被动机成本所掩盖，而且事实上，你现在花所有的时间来调节你的悲伤并想知道你为什么悲伤，对吧？
And so it's hard to harness.
因此很难驾驭。
But I had a similar thought about languishing from this perspective, to say that maybe moments of languishing open us up to change.
但从这个角度来看，我对衰弱也有类似的想法，也许衰弱的时刻让我们愿意改变。
When we get stuck, sometimes we realize you have to move backward in order to make progress.
当我们陷入困境时，有时我们会意识到必须倒退才能取得进步。
Sometimes you have to unlearn things that you thought you knew in order to keep growing.
有时，为了不断成长，您必须忘记一些您认为自己知道的事情。
And a friend of mine said, he read my languishing piece and he's like, "You're not the languishing type." I'm like, okay, maybe everybody's baseline is different.
我的一个朋友说，他读了我那篇颓废的文章，他说：“你不是那种颓废的人。”我想，好吧，也许每个人的基线都不同。
I think one of the things I'm really lucky to have is high reserves of energy.
我认为我真正幸运的事情之一就是拥有大量的能量储备。
But for me, languishing is like, I felt like I did nothing today.
但对我来说，萎靡不振就像是，我觉得我今天什么也没做。
And in a typical day, if I'm writing a book, I should be able to write 1,000 words I'm proud of, and I don't like a single word that I produced.
在典型的一天中，如果我正在写一本书，我应该能够写出 1000 个令我自豪的单词，而且我不喜欢我写的任何一个单词。
Or I sat at my blinking cursor, staring at the computer screen, and for the umpteenth time wondered, "Do they call it a cursor because of all the writers who've cursed it?" And then I end up Googling, what are the Latin roots of the word cursor?
或者我坐在闪烁的光标前，盯着电脑屏幕，无数次地想，“他们之所以称它为光标，是因为所有的作家都咒骂过它吗？”然后我用谷歌搜索，光标这个词的拉丁词根是什么？
Where did this come from?
这是从哪里来的？
And that is not a good use of time.
这并不是一个很好的时间利用方式。
That's not forward mass.
这不是前向质量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So good.
太好了。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
That's like I'm spinning.
就好像我在旋转一样。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So good
太好了
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
...
...
yeah, I think everybody languishes, and I aspire to do it less often, but not never.
是的，我认为每个人都会感到疲倦，我渴望减少这样做，但并非从来没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
What is the root of cursor?
光标的根是什么？
People will look it up.
人们会查一下。
Hey, folks, put it in the comments on YouTube.
嘿，伙计们，请把它放在 YouTube 的评论中。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I did look it up.
我确实查了一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, good.
哦，很好。
Okay.
好的。
You'll tell us now.
你现在就告诉我们。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
No, I feel like there's a footnote in "Hidden Potential," and I'm trying to remember.
不，我觉得《隐藏的潜力》里有一个脚注，我正在努力记住。
It comes from currerre, I think.
我认为它来自 currerre。
And the cursor originally came-- Nope, I don't want to do it.
光标最初出现了——不，我不想这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I'm going to skip it.
我要跳过它。
I don't remember.
我不记得了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
You captured it.
你捕捉到了它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your hippocampus is smart enough to have discarded that information.
你的海马体足够聪明，已经丢弃了这些信息。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
It's not useful.
这没有用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have more important things to do.
你还有更重要的事情要做。
Forgive me for asking the question.
请原谅我问这个问题。
Folks, put it in the comments on YouTube.
各位，请把它放在 YouTube 的评论中。
So good.
超好的。
I have one more question about potential.
我还有一个关于潜力的问题。
You have children, correct?
你有孩子，对吗？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Three.
三。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And a lot of our listeners either are children or have children.
我们的很多听众要么是孩子，要么有孩子。
And even for those that don't have children, I'm curious with the vast array of knowledge that you now have about potential and the fact that kids are these incredible sponges, right?
即使对于那些没有孩子的人来说，我也对你们现在拥有的关于潜力的大量知识以及孩子是这些令人难以置信的海绵这一事实感到好奇，对吧？
They certainly experience discomfort, we know that.
我们知道，他们肯定会感到不适。
They are sponges, we absolutely know that.
它们是海绵，我们绝对知道这一点。
Sometimes they're filters.
有时它们是过滤器。
We try and teach them to be filters, and hopefully, they are imperfectionists.
我们尝试教他们成为过滤器，希望他们是完美主义者。
Maybe there are kids that are just perfectionists by default, but I have to imagine that they are, because standards come about when we become aware of other people's performance, right?
也许有些孩子天生就是完美主义者，但我必须想象他们是这样，因为当我们意识到别人的表现时，标准就会产生，对吗？
What sorts of messages do you recommend parents give their kids, and what sorts of messages are you actually implementing that perhaps are different than you were prior to researching and writing your book on potential?
您建议父母向孩子传达哪些信息？您实际上正在实施哪些信息，这些信息可能与您在研究和撰写有关潜力的书之前有所不同？
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Ooh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Well, the first thing I should say is Becky Kennedy, Dr. Becky, is my favorite source of insight on parenting, and she's changed the way I think about a lot of what I do with our kids.
好吧，我首先要说的是贝基·肯尼迪，贝基博士是我最喜欢的育儿见解来源，她改变了我对孩子所做的很多事情的思考方式。
But my wife, Allison, her instincts about effective parenting are so sophisticated.
但我的妻子艾莉森，她对有效养育子女的本能是如此复杂。
I feel like every day I learn something from watching her communicate with our kids.
我觉得每天我都能从她与孩子们的交流中学到一些东西。
And so I came in thinking, all right, I'm going to write this book about potential.
所以我想，好吧，我要写这本关于潜力的书。
I'm not going to do a parenting chapter because I want everything to be relevant to parents.
我不会写育儿章节，因为我希望一切都与父母相关。
And sure enough, there's a chapter that had nothing to do with parenting where I was like, oh, actually, I'm reading this research, and there was a moment where I did something well, and I didn't even mean to do it.
果然，有一章与养育子女无关，我当时想，哦，实际上，我正在读这项研究，有一刻我做得很好，但我什至不是故意这样做的。
And this is something that I think everyone probably underutilizes.
我认为每个人可能都没有充分利用这一点。
Actually, that's an overstatement.
事实上，这是一种夸大的说法。
I think a lot of people don't appreciate the importance of this approach to parenting, and I am trying to do it more often.
我认为很多人没有意识到这种养育方式的重要性，而我正在尝试更频繁地这样做。
So, quick story, and then I'll back up into the principle.
所以，快速讲故事，然后我会回到原则上。
So I was getting ready to give my first TED Talk a number of years ago.
几年前，我正准备发表我的第一次 TED 演讲。
Extremely nervous.
极度紧张。
I'm a shy introvert.
我是一个害羞内向的人。
I was, for a long time, afraid of public speaking.
很长一段时间，我害怕公开演讲。
I remember in college literally shaking to raise my hand, being that nervous.
我记得在大学时，我真的很紧张，举手时都在颤抖。
And now I'm supposed to get in the red circle.
现在我应该进入红圈了。
Not my idea of comfort zone.
这不是我心目中的舒适区。
And happened to mention to our oldest daughter that I was nervous, and I asked her for advice on what I should do.
碰巧向我们的大女儿提到我很紧张，我向她请教我应该做什么。
And she said, I think at the time, let's see, she must have been, I think she was seven maybe.
她说，我想当时，让我们看看，她一定是，我想她可能七岁。
I think seven.
我认为是七个。
Maybe six.
也许是六个。
Anyway, she said, "Look for a smiling face in the audience." So it was one of those moments where I'm like, oh, that's such a good idea.
不管怎样，她说：“在观众中寻找笑脸。”所以那一刻我就想，哦，这是个好主意。
Why didn't I think of that?
为什么我没有想到这一点？
Yes, I can do that.
是的，我可以做到。
I know people who are going to be in the audience.
我认识即将出现在观众席上的人。
So I asked a couple of friends to sit in the front rows, and I locked eyes with a couple of them, and my nerves went down a little bit.
于是我请了几个朋友坐在前排，我和他们几个目光对视，我的紧张感就放松了一些。
So a couple weeks later, Joanna's getting ready to be in a school play, and she's also shy and introverted, and she's nervous, and she asks us for advice.
几周后，乔安娜准备参加学校戏剧表演，她也很害羞、内向，而且很紧张，她向我们寻求建议。
And instead of telling her what to do, I said, "Well, what did you suggest to me a few weeks ago?" And she remembered, and she said, "Look for a smiling face." And it was one of the most moving moments of my life.
我没有告诉她该怎么做，而是说：“好吧，几周前你向我建议了什么？”她想起来了，她说：“寻找一张笑脸。”这是我一生中最感人的时刻之一。
Allison and I got to the play, and she looked at us, and she beamed.
艾莉森和我去看戏，她看着我们，脸上露出笑容。
And I think what I learned from that experience was kids need to feel that they matter.
我认为我从这次经历中学到的是孩子们需要感觉到他们很重要。
And most of us think about mattering as showing kids that they're unconditionally loved and giving them the support they need.
我们大多数人认为重要的是向孩子们展示他们被无条件地爱着并给予他们所需的支持。
But we forget that part of feeling that you matter is feeling that you make a difference So as a kid, feeling like you have something to contribute.
但我们忘记了，感觉自己重要就是感觉自己有所作为，所以作为一个孩子，感觉自己可以做出一些贡献。
As a parent, asking my daughter for advice, that boosted her confidence.
作为父母，向我女儿寻求建议，这增强了她的信心。
And I think that this is, I've come to call this the coach effect.
我认为这就是，我称之为教练效应。
It's one of my favorite recent findings in psychology, that when you're struggling with something, your instinct is to go to somebody else for advice and say, "I need guidance." The problem is, that keeps you in a passive frame of mind.
这是我最近最喜欢的心理学发现之一，当你在某件事上挣扎时，你的本能是向别人寻求建议并说：“我需要指导。”问题是，这会让你处于一种被动的心态。
It makes you feel like you're dependent on others.
这会让你感觉自己依赖他人。
What you're better off doing is finding somebody else with a similar challenge and giving them advice.
你最好做的是找到其他面临类似挑战的人并给他们建议。
And what that does is it shows you that you have something to give.
这样做的作用是让你知道你可以付出一些东西。
It boosts your efficacy.
它可以提高你的效率。
The research on this by Lauren Eskreis-Winkler and colleagues is fascinating.
Lauren Eskreis-Winkler 及其同事对此的研究非常有趣。
So people who give advice instead of receiving it, randomly assigned, end up more motivated and more confident.
因此，那些提供建议而不是接受建议、随机分配的人最终会更有动力、更自信。
And I think this is something every parent could do.
我认为这是每个父母都可以做的事情。
Right?
正确的？
Whatever challenge you think your kid is going to face, find a version of it that you're grappling with and seek their guidance on it.
无论您认为您的孩子将面临什么挑战，请找到您正在应对的挑战，并寻求他们的指导。
And when they run into that same challenge, they will have confidence that they can begin to figure it out on their own.
当他们遇到同样的挑战时，他们将有信心自己可以开始解决这个问题。
And you can be a coach in that process as opposed to just telling them what to do, which they may feel like is not relevant, or they may resist because they don't want to be told what to do by a parent.
你可以成为这个过程中的教练，而不是仅仅告诉他们要做什么，他们可能觉得这不相关，或者他们可能会抵制，因为他们不想被父母告知要做什么。
So that is my favorite parenting lesson from "Hidden Potential."
这是我最喜欢的《隐藏的潜力》中的育儿课程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
And I love your statement that kids, like adults, want to matter.
我喜欢你的说法，即孩子和成年人一样，都想要发挥作用。
We hear, "Make them feel important," but so often that's tied to performance metrics, and those performance metrics are the very things that are making them nervous or that are creating anxiety.
我们听到“让他们感到自己很重要”，但这往往与绩效指标相关，而这些绩效指标正是让他们感到紧张或产生焦虑的因素。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Are you taking additional kids for adoption?
您是否正在收养额外的孩子？
Because I'm raising my hand.
因为我举手了。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
I think there'd be a lot more developmental psychologists in the world if we chose our careers later.
我认为如果我们以后选择职业的话，世界上会有更多的发展心理学家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super interesting topic.
超级有趣的话题。
And by the way, I'm very much looking forward to reading your book, "Hidden Potential." Clearly, I have a lot to resolve around that issue because I still hear Ms. Rolfe in middle school just telling me how much potential we have and that I wasn't accessing mine.
顺便说一句，我非常期待阅读您的书《隐藏的潜力》。显然，围绕这个问题我还有很多问题需要解决，因为我仍然听到中学时的罗尔夫女士告诉我我们有多少潜力，而我没有发挥我的潜力。
Oh, no, it's like a voice in the back of my head all the time.
哦，不，这就像我脑后一直有一个声音。
And even though I feel very happy with many aspects of my life, that there are a lot of things that I want to do that I haven't done, and I think it's through limited, what do they call it?
尽管我对生活的很多方面感到非常满意，但有很多我想做但还没有做的事情，而且我认为这是通过有限的，他们称之为什么？
Limiting self-beliefs or things of that sort.
限制自我信念或类似的事情。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Self-limiting beliefs.
自我限制的信念。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Self-limiting beliefs.
自我限制的信念。
There you go.
就这样吧。
I can't even say the phrase.
我连这句话都说不出来
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yeah, I do think all your fans are like, "Yeah, that Andrew Huberman, he hasn't really tapped his potential at all." "He's squandering it all."
是的，我确实认为你所有的粉丝都会说，“是的，安德鲁·胡伯曼，他根本没有真正发挥出自己的潜力。” “他正在浪费这一切。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, keep in mind, I've lived in a fairly narrow trench of pursuit.
好吧，请记住，我一直生活在一个相当狭窄的追逐战壕中。
At 19, I got into this, and I've been doing this, researching and teaching and doing research, it's pretty much all I've done for almost heading into 30 years.
19 岁时，我进入了这个行业，我一直在做这个，研究、教学和研究，这几乎是我近 30 年来所做的一切。
And you, too, you've been in this game for a long time.
你也一样，你已经参与这个游戏很长时间了。
And it's where we like to play.
这也是我们喜欢玩的地方。
But what I've learned from you today, in addition to many other things, is that realizing our potential has so much to do with reaching outside.
但今天我从你们那里学到的，除了许多其他的东西之外，是认识到我们的潜力与走出去有很大关系。
We hear about our comfort zone, but it's also reaching into our deeper wishes and thoughts and I keep coming back to this idea of the tag team podcast and the origins of that in your mind.
我们听说了我们的舒适区，但它也触及了我们更深层次的愿望和想法，我不断回到双打播客的想法以及你心中的起源。
It's like I never would have expected that.
就好像我从来没想过会这样。
But it also reveals something that sounds kind of intrinsic to you.
但它也揭示了一些听起来对你来说是内在的东西。
Maybe you like to see things play out the way you think they should be played out, as opposed to what's clearly an intractable battle of loggerheads these days.
也许你喜欢看到事情按照你认为应该的方式发展，而不是现在显然是一场棘手的争执。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Yes.
是的。
That's a core value.
这是一个核心价值。
I think I can't imagine an unsolvable problem.
我想我无法想象一个无法解决的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I love that.
哦，我喜欢那个。
Man, I want your brain.
伙计，我想要你的大脑。
Listen, Adam, I want to thank you, first of all, for taking the time today to come talk to us.
听着，亚当，首先我要感谢你今天抽出时间来与我们交谈。
Certainly not just about your book, but we covered an enormous range of topics.
当然不仅仅是关于您的书，我们涵盖了广泛的主题。
You talked to us about procrastination, which is sort of the third rail of life for so many people.
你和我们谈论了拖延症，这对很多人来说是生活的第三条轨道。
Creativity, intrinsic/extrinsic motivation, and blind spots, authenticity, and so much more.
创造力、内在/外在动机、盲点、真实性等等。
But also, I want to thank you for being such an active teacher on social media, in the classroom.
而且，我还要感谢您在社交媒体和课堂上如此活跃的老师。
You still run a research program.
你仍然在运行一个研究项目。
You're doing TED Talks.
你正在做 TED 演讲。
You're writing multiple books.
你正在写多本书。
You're an absolute phenom in terms of the amount of information that you're putting out into the world, and I must say, I always learn from your posts, your podcasts, your books.
就你向世界发布的信息量而言，你绝对是一个天才，我必须说，我总是从你的帖子、播客和书籍中学习。
There are certain people in the world, they're exceedingly rare, but you're one of them, that when they open their mouth, people learn, and they learn valuable knowledge, and it's an incredible thing to be on the receiving end.
世界上有一些人，他们非常罕见，但你是其中之一，当他们张开嘴时，人们就会学习，他们会学习有价值的知识，成为接收端是一件令人难以置信的事情。
And so I just want to say on behalf of myself and everyone else, thank you ever so much for what you do, and please keep going.
因此，我只想代表我自己和其他所有人说，非常感谢你们所做的事情，并请继续前进。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Well, thank you.
嗯，谢谢。
That means a lot to me, considering the source, because the sentiments are mutual.
考虑到来源，这对我来说意义重大，因为情感是相互的。
I think every time, whether it's reading one of your posts or seeing one of your reels, my overwhelming thought is, "That is a master teacher," and if I had been lucky enough to take one of your classes, I might have gone more of the neuroscience direction.
我想每次，无论是读你的一篇文章还是看到你的一卷影片，我压倒性的想法是，“那是一位大师老师”，如果我有幸上过你的一门课，我可能会更多地选择神经科学方向。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well-
嗯-
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
And then failed.
然后失败了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
But it would've been interesting to learn more about at minimum, and I just have tremendous admiration for your commitment to making science interesting, clear, and useful to people.
但至少了解更多是很有趣的，我非常钦佩你致力于让科学变得有趣、清晰和对人们有用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Well, I consider us on the same team in that regard, and I probably will tap you about a potential collaboration.
嗯，我认为在这方面我们是同一团队的，我可能会与您联系以探讨潜在的合作。
It'd be so much fun to-
那就太有趣了——
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Sounds like a blast
听起来很爆炸
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to work together.
一起工作。
Meanwhile, again, thank you for everything you're doing, and like I said, just keep going, and please come back again.
同时，再次感谢您所做的一切，就像我说的，继续前进，请再次回来。
I feel like there are a thousand other topics we could talk about and that we should.
我觉得我们还有一千个其他话题可以讨论，而且我们应该讨论。
Dr. Adam Grant:
亚当·格兰特博士：
Honored.
荣幸之至。
Will try not to make you regret that.
会尽力不让你后悔。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Adam Grant.
感谢您参加今天与亚当·格兰特博士的讨论。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific, zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳且零成本的方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple, and on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
另外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客，在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Not on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.
不是在今天的节目中，而是在 Huberman Lab 播客的许多之前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、激素支持和注意力集中。
To see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S.
要查看 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充内容，您可以访问 Live Momentous，拼写为 O-U-S。
So that's livemomentous.com/huberman.
这就是 livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, LinkedIn, and Facebook.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、LinkedIn 和 Facebook。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our monthly Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as toolkits.
如果您还没有订阅我们的每月神经网络新闻通讯，神经网络新闻通讯是一份零成本的每月新闻通讯，其中包括播客摘要和工具包。
The toolkits are brief PDFs that you can download that give you tools for things like neuroplasticity and learning, for managing dopamine, for enhancing sleep, for physical performance, flexibility, deliberate cold exposure, and on and on.
这些工具包是简短的 PDF 文件，您可以下载它们，为您提供诸如神经可塑性和学习、管理多巴胺、增强睡眠、身体表现、灵活性、故意冷暴露等方面的工具。
To join the Neural Network Newsletter, you simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
要加入神经网络新闻通讯，您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。
We do not share your email with anybody.
我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Once again, thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Adam Grant.
再次感谢您参加今天与亚当·格兰特博士的讨论。
I hope you found the conversation to be as informative and practical as I did.
我希望您能像我一样发现这次谈话内容丰富且实用。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。