Defining Healthy Masculinity & How to Build It | Terry Real
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
When the moment calls for fierceness, a good Morani is a killer.
当需要凶猛的时刻时，优秀的莫拉尼就是杀手。
And they are.
他们确实如此。
They're warriors.
他们是战士。
They'll kill you.
他们会杀了你。
Don't cross them.
不要越过他们。
When the moment calls for tenderness, a good Morani will lay down his sword and shield and be sweet like a baby.
当需要温柔的时刻，一个好的莫拉尼人会放下剑和盾，像婴儿一样甜蜜。
What makes a great Morani is knowing which moment is which.
伟大莫拉尼的秘诀在于知道哪个时刻是哪个时刻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Terry Real.
今天我的客人是特里·雷亚尔。
Terry Real is a therapist and considered one of the world's foremost experts on male psychology and on male-female dynamics in romantic relationships.
特里·雷尔（Terry Real）是一名治疗师，被认为是世界上男性心理学和浪漫关系中男女动态方面最重要的专家之一。
Today, we discuss what it means to be a man and the mental health crisis that men are facing nowadays.
今天，我们讨论作为一个男人意味着什么以及当今男人面临的心理健康危机。
As you may have heard, rates of depression and suicide are at an all-time high in men right now.
正如您可能听说的那样，目前男性的抑郁症和自杀率处于历史最高水平。
Fewer and fewer men are in romantic relationships, and many don't even have a single close friend.
处于恋爱关系中的男人越来越少，许多人甚至没有一个亲密的朋友。
And for those that are in romantic relationships, the public messaging about how to show up in those relationships is very conflicted.
对于那些处于恋爱关系中的人来说，关于如何在这些关系中表现出来的公开信息是非常矛盾的。
Today, we address all of these issues head-on.
今天，我们正面解决所有这些问题。
Terry explains that to thrive in life, men have to look at relating as a skill that requires action and, yes, feelings, but also processing and communicating those feelings in a specific way, and sometimes not communicating them at all.
特里解释说，为了在生活中茁壮成长，男人必须将人际关系视为一种技能，需要行动，是的，需要情感，但也要以特定的方式处理和交流这些情感，有时根本不表达它们。
We also discuss the critical importance of fraternity, not necessarily college fraternities, but finding and belonging to a group of men that you can trust, that you can enjoy time with, that give you honest feedback, and that hold you accountable.
我们还讨论了兄弟会的至关重要性，不一定是大学兄弟会，而是找到并属于一群你可以信任的人，你可以和他们一起享受时光，给你诚实的反馈，让你承担责任。
What I appreciate so much about Terry Real is that he's willing to answer the hard questions about men and women very directly.
我非常欣赏特里·雷尔（Terry Real），因为他愿意非常直接地回答有关男性和女性的难题。
And frankly, most therapists are not willing to do that publicly.
坦率地说，大多数治疗师不愿意公开这样做。
For example, he explains that in his extensive work with couples, women and men are equally bad at relationships, but in different ways, and he offers solutions for them both if they actually want their relationship to thrive.
例如，他解释说，在他对夫妻的广泛研究中，女性和男性在人际关系方面同样表现不佳，但方式不同，如果他们真的希望他们的关系蓬勃发展，他会为他们提供解决方案。
Thanks to his honesty and providing practical tools, Terry Real provides us today with essential information for men and women of all ages.
由于他的诚实和提供实用工具，特里·雷尔今天为我们提供了适合所有年龄段的男性和女性的基本信息。
It cuts through all the generational differences that certainly exist to highlight the practical ways that men can build and support their mental health and thrive at work, school, and in romantic relationships, and also, just as importantly, in their relationship to themselves.
它消除了所有确实存在的代际差异，强调了男性建立和支持心理健康并在工作、学校和恋爱关系中以及同样重要的是在与自己的关系中茁壮成长的实用方法。
That is, how men can build a strong self-concept, sense of agency, and confidence.
也就是说，男人如何建立强烈的自我概念、代理感和自信。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Terry Real.
现在我与特里·雷亚尔进行讨论。
Terry Real, welcome.
特里·雷亚尔，欢迎。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
It's a pleasure to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's going on with men?
男人怎么了？
What's this- ...
这是什么——...
mental health, men's crisis?
心理健康，男性危机？
Suicide rates are way, way up.
自杀率大幅上升。
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
What's going on is that the old role is shifted, the sand is shifted under our feet, and we're trying to figure out what the hell we are.
正在发生的事情是，旧的角色发生了变化，我们脚下的沙子发生了变化，我们试图弄清楚我们到底是什么。
And if we're not going to be what our dads and granddads were, what are we going to be?
如果我们不打算成为我们的父亲和祖父那样的人，我们会成为什么？
And we're searching and we're grappling.
我们正在寻找，我们正在挣扎。
I got to tell you, the other thing that's going on is somewhat in reaction to feminism and somebody said about my work, "Women have had a revolution, and now men have to deal with it." It's like, what are we supposed to do here?
我必须告诉你，正在发生的另一件事在某种程度上是对女权主义的反应，有人对我的工作说，“女性经历了一场革命，现在男性必须应对它。”就像，我们应该在这里做什么？
And there's been a backlash.
并且出现了强烈反对。
There's been a resurgence in our country and around the globe of almost a celebration of some of the most difficult, unattractive aspects of traditional masculinity.
在我们的国家和全球范围内，几乎重新流行了对传统男性气质中一些最困难、最没有吸引力的方面的庆祝。
And we're not sure what it means to be a man anymore, and particularly young guys are grappling.
我们不再确定作为一个男人意味着什么，尤其是年轻人正在挣扎。
And there aren't a lot of healthy examples saying, "Okay, here's the new territory.
并没有很多健康的例子说：“好吧，这是新领域。
Let me show you what it looks like." The biggest response that I see to the confusion about what are we supposed to do here has been regressive.
让我给你看看它是什么样子的。”我认为，对于我们应该在这里做什么的困惑，最大的反应是倒退。
Let's go back to being powerful, dominant, entitled, aggressive.
让我们回到强大的、统治性的、有权利的、积极进取的状态。
And you see this at the top.
你会在顶部看到这个。
You see this in politics, not just in our country, but all over the globe.
你可以在政治中看到这一点，不仅在我们国家，而且在全球各地。
Autocracy dominance is celebrated.
专制统治受到庆祝。
And it's like we're tired of the woke, we're tired of being told that we're bad.
就好像我们厌倦了醒来，厌倦了被告知我们很糟糕。
I grew up in the '60s, in the height of feminism, and I consider myself a feminist family therapist.
我成长于 60 年代，正值女权主义鼎盛时期，我认为自己是一名女权主义家庭治疗师。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you have long hair in the '60s?
60年代你留长发吗？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Oh, yeah, and a mustache and the whole thing.
哦，是的，还有小胡子之类的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, I did, and a lot of drugs.
是的，我吃了，还有很多毒品。
But when I grew up, the joke was the philosophical, "If a tree falls in the woods and no one's there, does it still make a sound?" When I grew up, it was, "If a man speaks in the woods and there's no one there, is he still wrong?"
但当我长大后，这个笑话是有哲理的：“如果一棵树倒在树林里，而无人在场，它还会发出声音吗？”当我长大后，“如果一个人在树林里说话，而那里没有人，他还是错的吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was the first surge of-
那是第一次涌动——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
major feminism.
主要女权主义。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, early-stage feminism was angry.
嗯，早期的女权主义很愤怒。
I am proud to say my dear friends and colleagues who are in the forefront of feminism, Esther Perel, Carol Gilligan, are man-loving feminists.
我很自豪地说，我亲爱的朋友和同事，埃丝特·佩雷尔（Esther Perel），卡罗尔·吉利根（Carol Gilligan），站在女权主义的最前沿，都是热爱男人的女权主义者。
But that wasn't the first wave.
但这并不是第一波浪潮。
It was really an understandable a reaction to the entitlement and the oppression of women.
这确实是对妇女的权利和压迫的一种可以理解的反应。
But I call that political patriarchy, and it exists.
但我称之为政治父权制，它确实存在。
Look, you step out of America, and it's pretty clear, women are oppressed by men all over the globe.
听着，你走出美国，很明显，全球各地的女性都受到男性的压迫。
That's true.
这是真的。
But what I, as a psychologist, what I'm interested in is what I call psychological patriarchy, the dynamics of patriarchy.
但作为一名心理学家，我感兴趣的是我所说的心理父权制，即父权制的动态。
And that can take place between two men, between two women, between a mother and a child, between two races.
这可以发生在两个男人之间、两个女人之间、一个母亲和一个孩子之间、两个种族之间。
And the psychology of patriarchy is a straitjacket that is, I believe, toxic for everybody.
我相信，父权制心理是一件对每个人都有毒的紧身衣。
Now look, there are some positive traits to traditional masculinity.
现在看，传统男性气质有一些积极的特征。
It's not completely black and white, but a lot of it is really unhealthy.
它并不完全是黑白分明的，但其中很多确实是不健康的。
So a lot of guys reacted to being told, "You're wrong." by, "Hey, I'm throwing off the shackles.
因此，很多人在被告知时的反应是：“你错了。” ”嘿，我要摆脱束缚了。
I'll do what the hell I want," and a kind of celebration of the old freedoms and the old entitlements.
我会做我想做的事”，这是对旧自由和旧权利的一种庆祝。
But that ain't the way out.
但这不是出路。
And even though we see this resurgence right now, that does not breed a happy human being.
尽管我们现在看到这种复苏，但这并不能孕育出幸福的人类。
So we need models of progressive masculinity, not regressive masculinity, and they're rare.
因此，我们需要进步的男子气概的模型，而不是倒退的男子气概，而且这种模型很少见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it possible that now there are more templates of what it is to be a man than there were before?
有没有可能现在关于男人的模板比以前更多了？
In my mind, in my very simple-minded, not formally educated about this topic except having grown up-
在我看来，在我非常简单的头脑中，除了长大之外，没有接受过关于这个话题的正式教育-
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah, you are a man
是的，你是个男人
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a man.
一个男人。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
You are a guy.
你是个男人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That's the only experience I have, right?
这是我唯一的经历，对吗？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So everything's filtered through my own experience as best as I can try and get outside of, and this is where I started and where I'll end up.
因此，一切都是通过我自己的经验尽可能地过滤出来的，这就是我开始的地方，也是我结束的地方。
The model that I was exposed to was okay, in the '40s and '50s, men looked and acted a certain way.
我接触到的模式还不错，在 40 年代和 50 年代，男人的外表和行为都有一定的方式。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was a fairly narrow template.
这是一个相当狭窄的模板。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Very narrow.
很窄。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pretty narrow template.
相当窄的模板。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And pretty inhuman in some ways.
在某些方面相当不人道。
The essence of traditional masculinity, which didn't end in the '50s, it's still with us very much today, is stoicism.
传统男子气概的精髓是斯多葛主义，它并没有在 50 年代结束，至今仍然存在于我们身边。
The essence of being a man is being invulnerable.
做人的本质就是刀枪不入。
The more invulnerable you are, the more manly you are.
你越是刀枪不入，你就越有男子气概。
The more vulnerable you are, the more girly you are to this day, and being girly is not a good thing.
越是脆弱的人，到今天就越少女心，而少女心可不是什么好事。
Well, there's some problems with that.
嗯，这有一些问题。
One is we are vulnerable.
一是我们很脆弱。
As human beings, that's a lie.
作为人类，这是一个谎言。
Denying our vulnerability is a lie.
否认我们的脆弱性是一个谎言。
And so I see chronic anxiety, depression.
所以我看到了慢性焦虑、抑郁。
Everybody's in a state of, "Do I measure up?" And you don't, because what you're trying to measure up to isn't real.
每个人都处于一种“我合格吗？”的状态。而你却没有这样做，因为你想要达到的标准并不真实。
I say to guys, "Trying to run away from your own vulnerability is like trying to outrun your rectum." "It has a way of following you everywhere you go." We are vulnerable.
我对大家说，“试图逃避自己的弱点就像试图超越你的直肠一样。” “无论你走到哪里，它都会跟着你。”我们很脆弱。
And the other issue with that traditional model of stoicism is we connect to each other through vulnerability.
传统斯多葛主义模式的另一个问题是我们通过脆弱性相互联系。
That's how human beings connect.
这就是人类的联系方式。
And men are walled off.
男人们被隔离开来。
And one of the issues facing us, is in hetero relationships, women across the West are insisting on levels of emotional connection and open-heartedness and intimacy from us guys that literally were stamped out of us as boys.
我们面临的问题之一是在异性恋关系中，西方女性坚持要求我们男人有一定程度的情感联系、开放的心胸和亲密感，而这些在我们小时候就被剥夺了。
The way we turn boys into men traditionally in this culture is through disconnection.
在这种文化中，传统上我们把男孩变成男人的方式是通过断绝关系。
You disconnect from your feelings, you disconnect from vulnerability, you disconnect from others, you disconnect from your mother.
你脱离了自己的感受，脱离了脆弱性，脱离了他人，脱离了母亲。
We call all this becoming autonomous.
我们称这一切为自治。
Well, this whole story of achieving autonomy has nothing to do with real psychology.
好吧，实现自主的整个故事与真正的心理学无关。
There's no basis for it at all.
根本没有任何依据。
It's just patriarchy.
这只是父权制。
So for example, the monosyllabic adolescent boy who won't answer his mother, that's not normal.
例如，一个单音节的青春期男孩不回答他的母亲，这是不正常的。
We think of it as normal, but that's not psychologically necessary.
我们认为这是正常的，但这在心理上没有必要。
It is a mandate of traditional masculinity.
这是传统男性气质的使命。
And I'm here to tell you that traditional masculinity is harmful.
我在这里告诉你，传统的男子气概是有害的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 BetterHelp。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
Now, I've been doing therapy for a long time, and I can tell you that in many ways, it's like a physical workout.
现在，我已经做了很长时间的治疗，我可以告诉你，在很多方面，这就像体育锻炼。
There are days when I want to do it, and there are days when I don't want to do it.
有想做的日子，也有不想做的日子。
But whenever I finish a therapy session, every single time, I come away feeling better and knowing that the time was well spent.
但每当我完成一次治疗时，每一次，我都会感觉好多了，并且知道这段时间花得很值。
And more often than not, when I finish a therapy session, I come away with some valuable insight, or in some cases many insights, or new perspectives on something that I'm working through, whether it's with work, with relationships, or with my relationship to myself.
通常，当我完成一次治疗时，我会得到一些有价值的见解，或者在某些情况下很多见解，或者对我正在解决的事情的新观点，无论是工作、人际关系还是我与自己的关系。
There is just so much benefit that comes through doing effective therapy.
进行有效的治疗可以带来很多好处。
And with BetterHelp, they make it extremely easy to find an expert therapist that can help provide those benefits that come through effective therapy.
通过 BetterHelp，他们可以非常轻松地找到可以帮助提供有效治疗所带来的好处的专家治疗师。
Also, because BetterHelp is done entirely online, it's very time efficient.
此外，由于 BetterHelp 完全在线完成，因此非常省时。
There's no driving to a therapist's office, looking for parking, or anything like that.
无需开车去治疗师办公室、寻找停车位或类似的事情。
You just log on and hold your session.
您只需登录并保持会话即可。
If you would like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by David.
今天的节目也是大卫给我们带来的。
David makes a protein bar unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
That's right, 28 grams of protein, and 75% of its calories come from protein.
没错，28克蛋白质，它的热量75%来自于蛋白质。
That's 50% higher than the next closest protein bar.
这比第二接近的蛋白质棒高出 50%。
These bars from David also taste amazing.
大卫的这些酒吧味道也很棒。
Right now, my favorite flavor is the new cinnamon roll flavor, but I also like the chocolate chip cookie dough flavor, and I also like the salted peanut butter flavor.
现在，我最喜欢的口味是新的肉桂卷口味，但我也喜欢巧克力饼干面团口味，我也喜欢咸花生酱口味。
Basically, I like all the flavors.
基本上所有的口味我都喜欢。
They're all delicious.
它们都很好吃。
Also, big news, David bars are now back in stock.
另外，还有一个大消息，大卫金条现在又重新有货了。
They were sold out for several months because they are that popular, but they are now back in stock.
由于它们太受欢迎，它们被抢购一空几个月，但现在又有货了。
By eating a David bar, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it very easy for me to meet my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and to do so without eating excess calories.
通过吃大卫棒，我可以在一份零食的卡路里中获得 28 克蛋白质，这使我很容易实现每天每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，并且无需摄入过多卡路里。
I generally eat a David bar most afternoons, and I always keep them with me when I'm away from home or traveling because they're incredibly convenient to get enough protein.
我通常大多数下午都会吃大卫棒，当我出门在外或旅行时，我总是随身携带它们，因为它们非常方便地获取足够的蛋白质。
As I mentioned, they're incredibly delicious, and given that 28 grams of protein, they're pretty filling for just 150 calories, so they're great between meals as well.
正如我所提到的，它们非常美味，而且含有 28 克蛋白质，仅需 150 卡路里热量就可以产生饱腹感，因此在两餐之间也非常适合。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，这是 david Protein.com/huberman。
Let me ask you about this template.
我想问一下这个模板。
So there's the 1940s went into the '60s somewhat template, right?
所以 20 世纪 40 年代有点像 60 年代的模板，对吧？
As Steve Jobs so aptly said, "The '60s really happened in the '70s." The long hair, the mustaches, most of that was in the '70s.
正如史蒂夫·乔布斯 (Steve Jobs) 所说，“60 年代确实发生在 70 年代。”长发、小胡子，大部分都是 70 年代的风格。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of it was in the '60s, but most of it was in the '70s.
其中一些是在 60 年代，但大部分是在 70 年代。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So there's that very stoic template.
这就是那个非常坚忍的模板。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Provider, protector, stoic.
提供者、保护者、坚忍。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
No feelings.
没有感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Logic.
逻辑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's actually interesting to-- I have looked a little bit of the history of this.
实际上很有趣的是——我了解了一些这方面的历史。
There were even diagrams that men should never stand with their hands on their hips because that was a feminine stance.
甚至还有图表表明，男性永远不应该双手叉腰站立，因为这是一种女性的姿势。
Never tilt a hip to one side.
切勿将臀部向一侧倾斜。
This stuff was out there, right?
这些东西就在那里，对吧？
And it was also coupled with etiquette.
而且还与礼仪相结合。
It was very clear how to act, right?
怎么做已经很清楚了吧？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There wasn't much range, but the sort of range of things to do and say was fairly scripted.
范围不大，但要做的事情和说的话的范围是相当有脚本的。
Which I'll just make-- I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here, but it made the script simpler and therefore more accessible, but it masked a lot of other things, is I think what we both agree on.
我只是想说——我并不是想在这里唱反调，但它使脚本更简单，因此更容易理解，但它掩盖了很多其他事情，我认为这是我们双方都同意的。
But then came the template.
但随后出现了模板。
I was born in '75, so I'm 50 now.
我是75年出生的，现在50岁了。
In the late '80s and '90s, it was kind of a mishmash of things.
在 80 年代末和 90 年代，这是一种大杂烩。
We saw our first gay male characters in television shows.
我们在电视节目中看到了第一个男同性恋角色。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We saw also gay female characters, but since we're talking about men and masculinity here, that was the first time.
我们还看到了同性恋女性角色，但由于我们在这里谈论男性和男性气质，所以这是第一次。
I think it was the character on "The Real World: San Francisco"
我认为这是“现实世界：旧金山”中的角色
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that, the first character.
那，第一个字符。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Forgive me for not remembering his name.
请原谅我没有记住他的名字。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He died of AIDS, and it was during the AIDS-
他死于艾滋病，那是在艾滋病期间——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the AIDS epidemic, and-
艾滋病流行，以及——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
With Will & Grace and-
带着威尔和格蕾丝以及——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, so there was more of that, right?
是的，所以还有更多，对吧？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
But there's a difference between having gay men in the public eye and saying that the role of straight men had changed.
但让同性恋者出现在公众视野中和说异性恋男人的角色已经改变是有区别的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Totally agree.
完全同意。
There's two-
有两个——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
separate things.
分开的事情。
But there was sort of an expansion of notions of maleness.
但男性观念有所扩展。
I would say in the '80s and '90s, it's almost like things became somewhat more of a buffet, right?
我想说，在 80 年代和 90 年代，事情几乎变得更像是自助餐，对吧？
You had your football jock types, your finance guys.
你有你的足球运动员类型，你的财务人员。
There was the stoic thing, the provider-protector thing.
有坚忍的东西，提供者-保护者的东西。
But then there was more of an artsy artist phenotype-
但随后出现了更多艺术艺术家的表型——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that emerged as well.
这也出现了。
You had, I wouldn't say sensitive artist, but the artistic expression-
我不会说你是敏感的艺术家，但你有艺术表达——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
became kind of, it was always, but it became part of masculinity.
一直如此，但它成为了男子气概的一部分。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Well, you had hippies.
好吧，你有嬉皮士。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You had hippies, and then it was like rock and roll, right?
你有嬉皮士，然后就像摇滚乐，对吧？
You had also, not my taste, but you had the Bon Jovi types.
你也有，不是我的品味，但你有邦乔维类型。
You had long hair and it was...
你有一头长发，而且...
Oh, you're from Jersey.
哦，你来自泽西岛。
Okay, I forgot.
好吧，我忘了。
So Bon Jovi's an appropriate example.
所以 Bon Jovi 就是一个合适的例子。
So there was somewhat of an expansion.
所以有一定程度的扩张。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
There was somewhat of an expansion.
有一定程度的扩张。
And then now it seems that the templates of maleness, some of the most famous musical artists who are men and report as heterosexual, from what I know, dress in what used to be considered a very feminine way, right?
现在看来，男性的模板，一些最著名的男性音乐艺术家，据我所知是异性恋，穿着过去被认为非常女性化的方式，对吧？
You had that before, too.
你以前也有过这样的经历。
David Bowie.
大卫·鲍伊。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
So there's always been a bit of gender bending within this template, but it really, I think, emerged the most in the '90s, and it's continued forward.
因此，这个模板中总是存在一些性别扭曲，但我认为，它确实在 90 年代出现得最多，而且还在继续向前发展。
And now when I talk to guys in their 20s, because I have friends with kids who are now in their late teens and 20s, it seems that they are very comfortable with the idea of self-expression.
现在，当我和 20 多岁的人交谈时，因为我有一些朋友的孩子现在已经十几岁和 20 多岁了，他们似乎对自我表达的想法非常满意。
I guess this is where I'm trying to reconcile this notion of, you said that we're kind of still steeped in the patriarchy, but it seems like the kids in their 20s and 30s, and maybe even 40s, they feel like they have options.
我想这就是我试图调和这种观念的地方，你说我们仍然沉浸在父权制中，但似乎 20 多岁和 30 多岁，甚至 40 多岁的孩子，他们觉得自己有选择。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Well, they have access to emotion in ways that we didn't.
嗯，他们能够以我们没有的方式接触情感。
They were all raised by feminist mothers, and it had its impact.
他们都是由女权主义母亲抚养长大的，这产生了影响。
But the problem is I see these guys and they're all whining that women aren't attracted to them, and there's a reason for that.
但问题是我看到这些家伙，他们都在抱怨女人不被他们吸引，这是有原因的。
A lot of guys who get in touch with the emotion and the sort of more heartfelt issues, bring along with it traditional male privilege.
许多接触到情感和更真诚的问题的男人都带着传统的男性特权。
So it's like, "I'm emotional now.
所以就像是，“我现在很情绪化。
Come and take care of me."
过来照顾我。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And a lot of the women are complaining that these guys are kind of children.
很多女性都抱怨这些家伙都是小孩子。
They don't stand up.
他们不站起来。
The issue is this.
问题是这样的。
Can you be big-hearted and open and emotional and show up and be responsible and be giving?
你能心胸开阔、开放、情绪化、表现出来、负责任并给予吗？
The thing that hasn't changed for a lot of us guys is giving.
对于我们很多人来说，没有改变的事情就是给予。
Back in the '50s, and it was stoic, it's about me.
回到五十年代，那是坚忍的，这是关于我的。
I show up and I am responsible in ways that our younger guys are less responsible than our dads were.
我出现了，我的责任感比我们的年轻人没有我们的父亲那么负责。
That's all true.
这都是真的。
But I go out and I fight dragons, and I come home, and where's my martini and slippers?
但我出去和龙战斗，然后我回到家，我的马提尼酒和拖鞋呢？
Then the '60s came on, and feminism, and okay, it's okay to have feelings.
然后六十年代到来了，女权主义出现了，好吧，有感情是可以的。
It might even be okay to be a little bit vulnerable.
表现得有点脆弱也许也没什么问题。
But it's still about me.
但这仍然是关于我的。
And when I talk about progressive masculinity, I want men who are big-hearted, strong, connected, and giving.
当我谈论进步的男子气概时，我想要的是心胸宽广、坚强、有联系、乐于奉献的男人。
And that's missing both in the traditional patriarchal model and in many of the counter-cultural models.
传统的父权制模式和许多反文化模式都缺少这一点。
What's missing in our culture, I'm going to fade back from men for a moment and talk about generally.
我们的文化中缺少什么，我将暂时退出男性话题并进行一般性讨论。
What's missing in our culture generally is relationality.
我们的文化普遍缺少的是关联性。
What's missing in our culture is the beauty of connection.
我们的文化中缺少的是联系之美。
And look, you follow the science.
看，你遵循科学。
I've been saying this for 40 years, and now the science is really very clear.
这句话我已经说了 40 年了，现在科学已经非常清楚了。
Being connected, being intimate with yourself and with others, that's what we humans are born for.
保持联系，与自己和他人保持亲密关系，这就是我们人类生来的目的。
That's how we're designed.
我们就是这样设计的。
We're pack animals.
我们是群居动物。
And the lack of intimate connection is not only bad for us psychologically, but I think it was Vivek Murthy you quoted.
缺乏亲密联系不仅在心理上对我们不利，而且我认为你引用的是维韦克·穆尔蒂的话。
It's as bad as smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day on your body.
这对你的身体来说就像每天吸一包半烟一样糟糕。
We are born to be connected and related.
我们生来就是相互联系和相关的。
And I wrote about male depression back in the '90s.
我在 90 年代写过有关男性抑郁症的文章。
What I said is the way we, quote, "Turn boys into men is through disconnection." We tell them to disconnect from their hearts, less so younger men, disconnect from others.
我所说的就是我们引用的方式，“将男孩变成男人是通过断开连接。”我们告诉他们要脱离自己的内心，更不要告诉年轻人，要脱离他人。
That's being independent and autonomous.
这就是独立和自主。
And the cost of disconnection is disconnection.
而断网的代价就是断网。
And some men have recovered more feeling inside their skin, but they haven't developed the art of connection.
有些男人已经恢复了更多的皮肤感觉，但他们还没有发展出联系的艺术。
I deal with, just like you and many of your-- I deal with high rollers in my practice, and one of the things that I teach these guys is the difference between gratification and what I call relational joy.
就像你和你们中的许多人一样，我在实践中与豪赌客打交道，我教给这些人的一件事是满足感和我所说的关系快乐之间的区别。
Gratification is just what you think, a short-term hit of pleasure, and our culture loves gratification.
满足感就是你所想的那样，是一种短暂的快乐，而我们的文化热爱满足感。
And these captains of industry who come in and fly their private planes in to see me, they're all about gratification, and they've done beautifully at it.
这些工业界的领袖驾驶着他们的私人飞机来见我，他们都是为了满足，而且他们做得很漂亮。
They're rich, they're powerful.
他们有钱，有权力。
That's great in its place.
这在它的位置上非常棒。
I like pleasure.
我喜欢享乐。
There's a deeper pleasure that I call relational joy, and you get that as a parent.
有一种更深层次的快乐，我称之为关系快乐，作为父母你会得到这种快乐。
Sometimes your kids are gratifying.
有时你的孩子很令人满意。
Sometimes you want to throw them through the goddamn window.
有时你真想把它们扔出该死的窗户。
But if anybody said, "Hey, we could do a time machine, and you don't have to have this," I'd deck you because there's a deeper down joy in just being there and being connected, just being in the relationship, and that's been lost in our culture.
但如果有人说，“嘿，我们可以做一台时间机器，而你不必拥有这个”，我会嘲笑你，因为只要在那里并保持联系，只是处于关系中，就会有一种更深层次的快乐，而这在我们的文化中已经消失了。
We live in an anti-relational, narcissistic culture, and even though some of the terms of patriarchy have moved, the narcissism and the lack of relationality has not moved.
我们生活在一个反关系、自恋的文化中，尽管父权制的一些条款发生了变化，但自恋和缺乏关系的观念却没有改变。
It's just a different variation.
这只是一个不同的变体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a lot there, and I want to make sure I ask about this notion of emotional experience and expression from men.
其中有很多内容，我想确保我询问的是男性情感体验和表达的概念。
Seems like a very important topic to parse because indeed, it seems that men now are, thanks to your work and others, are hearing that it's important to feel.
这似乎是一个需要解析的非常重要的话题，因为事实上，由于你和其他人的工作，现在的男人似乎正在听说感觉很重要。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Feel.
感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To feel.
去感觉。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That feelings are not just okay, they're encouraged, that if you bottle them in, we used to hear about this in the context of the impact on heart health.
这种感觉不仅是好的，而且是受到鼓励的，如果你把它们装在瓶子里，我们过去常在影响心脏健康的背景下听到这种感觉。
Type A, Type B.
A型、B型。
If you go back and look at the-- It was almost like a mask for this other thing.
如果你回头看看——它几乎就像是另一件事的面具。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's still true.
这仍然是事实。
You can destroy your heart by smoking cigarettes and all this other stuff, but it was about that original typing of people who tend to die early from heart attack.
你可以通过吸烟和所有其他东西来摧毁你的心脏，但这是关于那些往往因心脏病发作而早逝的人的原始类型。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was the people who hold it inside.
是那些把它藏在里面的人。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was about people who manage a lot, do a lot, but hold it inside.
这是关于那些管理很多，做了很多，但把它藏在心里的人。
And it's kind of interesting because the ones that turned out, I'm not suggesting people do that, screamed and yelled a lot, that catharsis actually helped them in terms of longevity.
这很有趣，因为结果是，我并不是建议人们这样做，大声尖叫，大喊大叫，宣泄实际上有助于他们长寿。
I'm not saying you should go scream at people.
我并不是说你应该对别人尖叫。
But Steve Jobs used to be a big proponent of scream therapy, and just getting out there and vocalizing.
但史蒂夫·乔布斯曾经是尖叫疗法的大力支持者，他只是走出去发声。
But I think that the question that's in my mind is, okay, so if it's important to feel, then let's just do this as a decision tree.
但我认为我脑子里的问题是，好吧，所以如果感觉很重要，那么让我们把它作为决策树来做。
Okay, so I think if we agree men need to feel their feelings-
好吧，所以我想如果我们同意男人需要感受他们的感受-
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
then the question becomes, should they feel those alone or in the presence of someone else?
那么问题就变成了，他们应该独自感受到这些还是在其他人在场的情况下？
And I'm guessing there's a case for both.
我猜这两种情况都有可能。
But then at what point does one not have this, what you refer to as emotional privilege, where it's like putting it on someone else to take care of them?
但是，在什么时候一个人不拥有这种你所说的情感特权，就像把它放在别人身上来照顾他们一样？
Could you give an example of what healthy expression of an emotion is?
您能举例说明什么是健康的情绪表达吗？
Let's keep this in the context of heterosexual couple for simplicity.
为了简单起见，让我们将其保留在异性伴侣的背景下。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But obviously, it carries over.
但显然，它会延续下去。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is an example of healthy emotional expression, let's say sadness-
健康情绪表达的例子是什么，比如说悲伤——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
deep sadness-
深深的悲伤——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or frustration and sadness-
或沮丧和悲伤-
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the presence of a partner-
在有合伙人在场的情况下——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that doesn't bring about this thing of that they're regressing and are now becoming a child?
这不会导致他们退化并变成一个孩子吗？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What does that look like?
那看起来像什么？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
It looks like a negotiation and not a demand.
这看起来像是一场谈判，而不是一个要求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you tell me more?
你能告诉我更多吗？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Because even in our, I'm going to push us, even in our talk, I don't care about the feelings.
因为即使在我们的谈话中，我也会推动我们，即使在我们的谈话中，我也不在乎感受。
I care about the connection.
我关心的是连接。
What will make us men healthy is connection.
使我们男人健康的是联系。
So, yeah, great, have your feelings, and then what are you going to do with them?
所以，是的，很好，有你的感受，然后你打算用它们做什么？
I used to have no feelings, and now I have feelings all over the place, and I don't give a shit about you and your feelings.
以前我没有感情，现在我满脑子都是感情，我根本不在乎你和你的感受。
I want you to pay attention to me and my feelings.
我希望你关注我和我的感受。
Well, is that a step up?
嗯，这是一个进步吗？
I mean, a little bit, but it's not where I want to leave you.
我的意思是，有一点，但这不是我想离开你的地方。
So what I want men to move beyond is our selfishness.
所以我希望男人超越的是我们的自私。
And because it's in our interests to move beyond our selfishness.
因为超越自私符合我们的利益。
And so recovering feeling, being stoic or having feelings, sure, that's good.
所以恢复感觉、保持坚忍或有感觉，当然，这很好。
That's important.
这很重要。
The way we connect is through feelings, the way we connect is through vulnerability.
我们联系的方式是通过感情，我们联系的方式是通过脆弱性。
So I was nervous coming here talking to you.
所以我来这里和你说话很紧张。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Me?
我？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, hard to imagine, right?
嗯，很难想象，对吧？
But it's true.
但这是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's true.
嗯，这是真的。
I spend a lot of time here, so it's a very familiar place.
我在这里呆了很多时间，所以这是一个非常熟悉的地方。
But I would hope-
但我希望——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's not because I'm intimidating.
那不是因为我令人生畏。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
No, it's not that.
不，不是那样的。
It's more like there are a lot of people listening to us right now.
更像是现在有很多人在听我们讲话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah, who are intensely interested in these issues.
哦，是的，他们对这些问题非常感兴趣。
Men and women, young and old, are really interested in these issues.
男人和女人，无论年轻还是年长，都对这些问题非常感兴趣。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah, as we should be.
是的，我们应该如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And not just because men are killing themselves more.
不仅仅是因为男人自杀的次数越来越多。
That too, but also because, as you pointed out, we are a old-world primate species, and we are not going to go back to living in troops.
这也是因为，正如你所指出的，我们是旧世界的灵长类动物，我们不会回到军队生活。
Sorry, folks.
抱歉，各位。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My colleague, I like to consider him a friend as well, Bob Sapolsky, we talk about this from time to time.
我的同事，我也喜欢把他视为朋友，鲍勃·萨波尔斯基（Bob Sapolsky），我们不时谈论这个。
It's like, yeah, that's how we evolved.
就像，是的，我们就是这样进化的。
Guess what, folks?
猜猜看，伙计们？
There's no little village where everyone moves to.
没有一个小村庄是每个人都搬去的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not happening.
这并没有发生。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I know.
我知道。
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we are also very adaptable old-world primates.
但我们也是适应性很强的旧大陆灵长类动物。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That's true.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the circuitry is not going anywhere.
但电路不会去任何地方。
It's a need.
这是一个需要。
So if I could, hopefully you're not feeling nervous anymore.
所以如果可以的话，希望你不再感到紧张。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Well, but let me answer your question.
好吧，但让我回答你的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Because what I did is I called our mutual friend, Bea.
因为我所做的就是给我们共同的朋友 Bea 打电话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And I said I was nervous.
我说我很紧张。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She's wonderful.
她很棒。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah, and she says, "He's wonderful.
是的，她说：“他很棒。
Let me tell you about Andrew and what's going to happen." And she read me through the whole thing.
让我告诉你关于安德鲁的事以及将会发生的事情。”她给我读了整件事。
And little, I'm not going to get into it, but my fears about, "Well, we're going to disagree about this, and we're..." "No, you're not.
一点点，我不会深入讨论这个问题，但我担心，“好吧，我们会在这个问题上产生分歧，而且我们……”“不，你不会。
Let me tell you how it is." And after I was done talking to her, I was chilled.
让我告诉你是怎么回事。”和她聊完之后，我浑身发冷。
That's a blessing.
这是一种祝福。
What men lose when we're not in touch with our vulnerabilities is we lose the capacity to ask somebody to help them.
当我们不了解自己的弱点时，人们所失去的就是我们失去了请求别人帮助他们的能力。
But it's ask someone, not demand.
但这是询问别人，而不是要求。
And it's also reciprocal.
而且它也是相互的。
Then Bea started talking about her relationship, and I started supporting her, and that's a relationship.
然后 Bea 开始谈论她的关系，我开始支持她，这就是一种关系。
And yes, I want men to come out of the straitjacket and have feelings.
是的，我希望男人们能够摆脱束缚，拥有感情。
I want us to be whole and own our human vulnerabilities, but in a context.
我希望我们是完整的，并承认我们人类的弱点，但要在一定的背景下。
In a context in which we're connected to other people, and we're neither cut off from them nor are we imposing on them, but we've learned the art, and it's virtually lost, of how to be with.
在我们与其他人有联系的环境中，我们既没有与他们隔绝，也没有强加于他们，但我们已经学会了如何与人相处的艺术，但实际上已经迷失了。
Simply how to be with.
简单来说就是如何相处。
How to ask them to be with us, and how to reciprocate and be with them.
如何要求他们与我们在一起，以及如何回报并与他们在一起。
So many women are angry at us.
很多女人对我们感到愤怒。
I deal, I'm the medic in the gender war.
我同意，我是性别战争中的医生。
My beat are couples on the brink of divorce that no one else has been able to help.
我的对手是那些处于离婚边缘而没有人能够提供帮助的夫妇。
That's my specialty.
这是我的专长。
And it's like we just don't know.
就好像我们只是不知道。
I have a saying, and I may get into trouble, but it's a broad generalization, clinically.
我有一句话，我可能会遇到麻烦，但从临床角度来看，这是一个广泛的概括。
I like to say an angry woman is a woman who doesn't feel heard.
我喜欢说，一个生气的女人是一个感觉没有被倾听的女人。
And so many men are like, "What is going on here?
很多男人都会想，“这是怎么回事？
My marriage isn't that bad.
我的婚姻并没有那么糟糕。
But if you could just get her off my back.
但如果你能让她摆脱我的困扰就好了。
I don't understand what the problem is." And we're hit with an angry-- Well, I'll double back on this, but we're hit with an angry woman, and we either push back or get defensive or withdraw.
我不明白问题出在哪里。”我们受到了愤怒的打击——好吧，我会加倍反击，但我们受到了一个愤怒的女人的打击，我们要么反击，要么采取防御，要么撤退。
I have to lead men by the hand.
我必须亲自带领人们。
Let me teach you something.
让我教你一些东西。
Tell me why you're angry.
告诉我你为什么生气。
Tell me what you would like.
告诉我你想要什么。
Let me give you, unless it's jumping off the bridge.
让我给你吧，除非是从桥上跳下去。
I have a saying, "I know how you can disarm an angry woman in five seconds 50% of the time, which is better than you're doing." "Okay, how do you do it?" Give her what she wants.
我有句话说，“我知道如何在 50% 的情况下在五秒内解除一个愤怒的女人的武装，这比你现在做的要好。” “好吧，那你要怎么做呢？”给她她想要的。
Let me ask you what's going on with you and do what I can to help out.
让我问问你怎么了，并尽我所能提供帮助。
This is a skill that's brand new for our culture.
对于我们的文化来说，这是一项全新的技能。
And if I may, it doubles back on the central issue, which I hope we get to, of men and self-esteem.
如果可以的话，它会再次回到我希望我们能够讨论的核心问题上，即男人和自尊。
Because most men in our culture have no idea what healthy self-esteem looks like.
因为我们文化中的大多数男人不知道健康的自尊是什么样子。
But self-esteem comes from the inside out.
但自尊是由内而外的。
I have worth because I'm here and I'm breathing.
我有价值，因为我在这里并且我在呼吸。
I don't have to earn it.
我不必去赚取它。
I can't add to it.
我无法添加它。
I can't subtract from it.
我无法从中减去。
It's democracy.
这是民主。
My worth is no better or worse than yours.
我的价值并不比你更好或更差。
I'm born with it.
我与生俱来。
Men are taught outside in self-esteem, and it's mostly performance.
男人在外面被教导要学会自尊，而且主要是表现。
I have worth because of what I can do.
我因为我能做的而有价值。
I have big muscles.
我有很大的肌肉。
I can give my wife an orgasm.
我可以让我的妻子达到高潮。
I can land this job.
我可以找到这份工作。
I can hit this homer.
我可以打这个本垒打。
That's great when you perform well.
当你表现出色时那就太好了。
But when you don't perform well, you go into shame.
但当你表现不佳时，你就会感到羞耻。
What happened to your worth?
你的身价怎么了？
And so healthy self-esteem, if I may, and I may double back and talk more about it, which I have to teach men, is the capacity to feel proportionally bad about bad behavior.
因此，健康的自尊，如果可以的话，我可以回过头来更多地谈论它，这是我必须教给男人的，是对不良行为感到相应不好的能力。
I screwed up.
我搞砸了。
I hurt you.
我伤害了你。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
And at the same time, hold yourself in warm regard as to Imperfect person.
同时，也要对不完美的人保持温暖的态度。
And what we do is we either don't feel bad about bad behavior.
我们所做的就是要么不为不良行为感到难过。
That's shameless, that's grandiose, sociopathic even.
这是无耻的，这是浮夸的，甚至是反社会的。
Or if we do feel bad, we go right into shame.
或者，如果我们确实感觉不好，我们就会陷入羞耻。
"I'm a useless piece of shit.
“我就是一个没用的废物。
I feel terrible." I have to teach men to come up out of shame and not be obsessed with the...
我感觉很糟糕。”我必须教导人们走出羞耻，不要沉迷于......
One of the things I say is when you go from shameless bad behavior, irresponsible, selfish, insensitive, to, "Oh my God, that's terrible, I'm a big shit, I should just beat the hell out of myself," you're trading one form of self-preoccupation for, guess what?
我要说的一件事是，当你从无耻的不良行为、不负责任、自私、麻木不仁，变成“天哪，太糟糕了，我是个大混蛋，我应该把自己打败”时，你正在用一种自我关注的方式来换取，你猜怎么着？
Another form of self-preoccupation.
另一种形式的自我关注。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I definitely want to get into self-esteem, but I just want to, for my sake and for some of the listeners, make sure that I summarize two, what I think are conclusions, and then you can modify these.
我当然想进入自尊，但我只是想，为了我自己和一些听众，确保我总结了两个，我认为是结论，然后你可以修改它们。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As it relates to expression of emotion-
因为它涉及到情感的表达——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which you, and I totally agree, you have to be able to feel your feelings.
你我都完全同意这一点，你必须能够感受到你的感受。
If for no other reason, one good reason, great reason to get started on that trajectory is it's great for your physical health.
如果没有其他原因，开始这一轨迹的一个很好的理由就是它对你的身体健康很有好处。
It's also great for your mental health and your relational health.
这对您的心理健康和人际关系健康也很有好处。
But oftentimes, as you know, men need to be kind of led to the trough for a particular carrot, and then there are additional carrots in there.
但正如你所知，通常情况下，男人需要被引导到特定的胡萝卜的槽中，然后那里还有额外的胡萝卜。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's holding everything inside will kill you.
但它把所有东西都藏在里面会杀了你。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes, it will kill you.
是的，它会杀了你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then it makes everyone else around you miserable, too, even if you think you're protecting them from it.
然后它也会让你周围的其他人感到痛苦，即使你认为你正在保护他们免受伤害。
But as you very importantly pointed out, it can't be a dumping of emotion on other people.
但正如您非常重要地指出的那样，这不能是向他人倾诉情感。
So what I heard from you was of at least two very healthy ways to engage emotionally for men is, one, to ask for help.
所以我从你那里听到的是，至少有两种非常健康的男性情感参与方式，一是寻求帮助。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the help from your example that you were referring to, also a very talented therapist, Bea Voce, when you called Bea, was to ask for help by expressing what is on your mind as the point of concern.
你所提到的例子中的帮助，也是一位非常有才华的治疗师 Bea Voce，当你打电话给 Bea 时，通过表达你的想法作为关注点来寻求帮助。
Like one is nervous or one is sad.
就像一个人很紧张或者一个人很悲伤。
And I think in my experience, women naturally reach out to help when you couch things that way.
我认为根据我的经验，当你以这种方式处理事情时，女性自然会伸出援手。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Everybody does.
每个人都这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And then the-
然后是——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Wait, can I slow that down-
等等，我可以放慢速度吗-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, please
是的，请
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
for a second, Andrew?
等一下，安德鲁？
What we have is what I call the Icarus syndrome.
我们所遇到的就是我所说的伊卡洛斯综合症。
In the absence of worthiness, so many of us feel we have to earn love.
在缺乏价值的情况下，我们很多人都觉得我们必须赢得爱。
We have to earn worthiness.
我们必须赢得价值。
And I like to say, guys leave their wives, I'll be hetero for a moment, guys leave their wives and kids, go fly off into the sun to be worthy of love.
我想说，男人们离开他们的妻子，我会暂时成为异性恋，男人们离开他们的妻子和孩子，飞向阳光以获得值得的爱。
And meanwhile, their wives and kids are sitting there, "Where the hell is Dad?
与此同时，他们的妻子和孩子坐在那里，“爸爸到底在哪里？
What's going on here?" "Well, I'm off trying to win your love." "Well, sit down and play Monopoly with us, for Christ's sake.
这是怎么回事？” “好吧，我要努力赢得你的爱。” “好吧，坐下来和我们一起玩大富翁吧，老天爷。
You don't have to do that." It's a bill of goods.
你不必这样做。”这是一张货物清单。
It's a scam that we've all bought.
这是我们都买过的骗局。
Just sit down and be still and be connected.
只需坐下来保持安静并保持联系即可。
That's all you need to do.
这就是您需要做的全部。
But we're not taught that.
但我们没有被这样教导。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And we'll get back to this later, but the demands of also, and the joy, frankly, of being a provider and protector, many times, not always, involve having to leave the home and go do work.
我们稍后会回到这个问题，但坦率地说，作为一个提供者和保护者的需求，以及快乐，很多时候（并非总是）涉及必须离开家去工作。
And frankly, all my friends with kids, and I've certainly experienced this, it's when you're not able to be home because you're working, it's this weird pain.
坦率地说，我所有有孩子的朋友，我当然经历过这种情况，当你因为工作而无法回家时，这是一种奇怪的痛苦。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I certainly love my work.
我当然热爱我的工作。
Being a provider is wonderful, and at the same time, there's this pain of not being able to be there for things.
成为一名提供者是美妙的，但同时，也有无法在场的痛苦。
And we can get back to that.
我们可以回到这一点。
But asking for help, and then in terms of responding in a non-regressive, non-entitled way, privileged way, as you said, is when a woman is upset, the words, "What do you need?"
但寻求帮助，然后以一种非倒退的、无权利的方式、特权的方式回应，正如你所说，就是当一个女人心烦意乱时，她会说：“你需要什么？”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Ah.
啊。
That is water in the desert.
那是沙漠里的水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And perhaps also, "What do you need from me right now?" Is I think-
也许还有“你现在需要我做什么？”我是否认为——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
What do you need from me right now?
你现在需要我做什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
I'm just trying to put some structure on this because there is also something about the Y chromosome, like we respond well to simple instructions.
我只是想对此进行一些解释，因为 Y 染色体也有一些东西，就像我们对简单的指令反应良好一样。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Okay, I'll take that.
好的，我接受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I believe that.
我相信这一点。
I have a whole theory about Y chromosomes and how men evolved to be the way that we are.
我有一个关于 Y 染色体以及人类如何进化成现在这个样子的完整理论。
We can talk about maybe at the end for fun, because it's somewhat facetious, but not really.
我们可以在最后讨论也许是为了好玩，因为这有点滑稽，但不是真的。
And then the next thing that you were saying, and I think this is so critical about self-esteem, is the ability to accept responsibility when we screw up, and at the same time, not take ourselves into a place of shame.
然后你说的下一件事，我认为这对于自尊来说非常重要，就是当我们搞砸时承担责任的能力，同时不让自己陷入羞耻的境地。
To be able to still hold onto one's sense of goodness.
能够仍然保持自己的善良感。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I'm a good guy who screwed up.
我是一个搞砸了的好人。
I'm a good guy who behaved badly.
我是一个表现不好的好人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What if the words coming at you are not of that?
如果你听到的不是这样的话怎么办？
It's not, "Hey, listen, I'm upset because you really dropped the ball on this thing." It's, "I'm upset because you really dropped the ball on this thing, and it becomes characterological assassination."
这并不是说，“嘿，听着，我很沮丧，因为你在这件事上真的搞砸了。”它是，“我很沮丧，因为你在这件事上真的搞砸了，它变成了性格刺杀。”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That takes an extra level of work.
这需要额外的工作量。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
It does.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in that case, is your recommendation to try and counter that or to just sit with it and do the work internally to say, "That's not true"?
在这种情况下，你的建议是尝试反驳这个问题，还是只是坐下来，在内部做工作，说“这不是真的”？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Well, good luck countering it.
好吧，祝你好运。
How's that working?
怎么样？
Listen, this is a trap, and look, first of all, the thing is this.
听着，这是一个陷阱，看，首先，事情就是这样的。
The lack of self-esteem leads us guys to be unaccountable in our relationships.
缺乏自尊会导致我们在人际关系中不负责任。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
When we're confronted with an imperfection, we're going to go into shame.
当我们面对不完美时，我们会感到羞耻。
We don't have the capacity to feel proportionately bad about the imperfection.
我们没有能力对不完美感到相应的糟糕。
"Okay, you're right, I screwed up.
“好吧，你说得对，我搞砸了。
What can I do to help?" It's like, "Oh, you mean I didn't hit a homer?
我能帮什么忙吗？”就像，“哦，你的意思是我没有击中本垒打？
That means I'm a loser." And we defend against the overwhelm of our own lack of self-worth.
这意味着我是一个失败者。”我们还要抵御因缺乏自我价值而造成的压倒性的影响。
"What do you mean?
“你什么意思？
I'm not perfect?" We defend against that awful feeling, and it's an awful feeling by warding off the criticism.
我不完美吗？”我们通过抵制批评来抵御这种糟糕的感觉，而这种感觉很糟糕。
"Well, wait a minute, you have to understand." "Well, you..." We do all these defensive things that women always complain we do, and we do because we're protecting ourselves from the overwhelm of getting swamped.
“好吧，等一下，你得明白。” “好吧，你……”我们做了所有这些女性总是抱怨我们做的防御性的事情，我们这样做是因为我们正在保护自己免受淹没的压力。
"I'm a bad guy." So interestingly, I teach men self-esteem as a way of helping them be accountable in their relationship.
“我是个坏人。”有趣的是，我教导男人自尊，作为帮助他们对人际关系负责的一种方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
If you don't have healthy self-esteem, you can't afford to be accountable-
如果你没有健康的自尊，你就无法承担责任——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
because it's too overwhelming to admit how imperfect you are.
因为承认自己的不完美实在是太难以承受了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is so important, what you're saying.
你说的这个非常重要。
Also, for people who aren't in romantic relationship, for men, it's so critical because in my mind, we could easily transpose boss or feedback.
另外，对于没有恋爱关系的人，对于男人来说，这非常重要，因为在我看来，我们可以轻松地调换老板或反馈。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And again, forgive me for kind of going slow here, but I feel like parsing some of this into a structure is going to help me and hopefully help other people.
再次，请原谅我在这里走得有点慢，但我觉得将其中一些解析成一个结构会对我有所帮助，并希望对其他人有所帮助。
There are kind of two forms of criticism that perhaps I've experienced in life.
我在生活中可能经历过两种形式的批评。
I'm joking.
我是在开玩笑。
Of course, I've experienced it.
当然，我也经历过。
One is someone is upset about what I did.
一是有人对我的所作所为感到不安。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And I hear you loud and clear, even if it's coming at me with characterological assassination, to have the internal reservoir of self-esteem that I can hear that.
我听到你的声音响亮而清晰，即使它是对我进行性格刺杀，我也能听到你内心的自尊。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
What happens to us, and look, I've been married 40 years.
我们发生了什么事，看，我已经结婚 40 年了。
It's me, too.
也是我啊
We get caught in the horrible delivery, and we react to the horrible delivery.
我们陷入了可怕的交付之中，并且我们对可怕的交付做出了反应。
You know, "Come on, it's not that bad" or, "Hey, you're talking horrible." A black belt in a relational guy, you duck under the horrible delivery.
你知道，“得了吧，事情没那么糟糕”或者“嘿，你说得很糟糕。”一个关系型男人的黑带，你躲在可怕的交付之下。
I'm not saying it's not horrible.
我并不是说这不可怕。
It is.
这是。
But you try and get to the point that the person's trying to make.
但你要努力抓住对方想要表达的观点。
Why?
为什么？
It's jujitsu.
这是柔术。
You duck under the horrible delivery, you deal with their ouch, and guess what happens?
你躲在可怕的交付之下，你处理他们的抱怨，你猜会发生什么？
They calm down.
他们平静下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
You react to the horrible delivery, "That's exaggerated, blah, blah, blah, you're..." And well, you're off to the races.
你对可怕的交付做出反应，“这太夸张了，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，你......”好吧，你开始参加比赛了。
But oh my God, what an enlightened man.
但是天哪，这是一个多么开明的人啊。
Your partner or your boss or your kid is saying, "You're a shitty human being.
你的伴侣、你的老板或你的孩子会说：“你是个糟糕的人。
This isn't about your bad behavior.
这与你的不良行为无关。
You're just a rotten person." That's shame.
你只是一个烂人而已。”那是耻辱。
You have enough boundaries, you have enough self-esteem, you go, "Well, they're being abusive.
你有足够的界限，你有足够的自尊，你会说：“好吧，他们在虐待你。
This is not the best part of them." But rather than react to that, "What are you so upset about, honey?
这不是他们最好的部分。”但不要对此做出反应，“亲爱的，你为什么这么难过？
What can I give you right now?" And oof, the beauty of these skills is that they work.
我现在能给你什么？”噢，这些技能的美妙之处在于它们很有效。
You react to the bad behavior on your partner's part, and you're off.
你对伴侣的不良行为做出反应，然后你就离开了。
It just goes on for hours, days.
它只会持续几个小时、几天。
You duck under that and go, "Okay, you're upset.
你躲到那儿去，“好吧，你很沮丧。
What can I do to help you?" And all of that toxicity just passes through you.
我能帮你什么忙吗？”所有这些毒性都会通过你。
That's a real man.
那是一个真正的男人。
And it's like something that could have been misery for a day to a week, it calms down in 10, 15 minutes because of the good job.
这就像一些本来可能痛苦一天到一周的事情，由于出色的工作，它会在 10、15 分钟内平静下来。
And when I talk to guys, I want to redefine strength.
当我和其他人交谈时，我想重新定义力量。
Strength in the way we normally think of it, it's the rumble, and you give me your best shot, I give you my best shot.
我们通常认为的力量就是隆隆声，你给我你最好的机会，我也给你我最好的机会。
I like jujitsu.
我喜欢柔术。
Duck under it.
鸭子在它下面。
Duck under the wave.
鸭子在波浪下。
And at the end, instead of saying, "I was really strong.
最后，我没有说：“我真的很坚强。
I didn't put up with that bullshit.
我没有忍受那些废话。
I stood up." No. I want you to say, "I was really elegant.
我站了起来。”不，我想让你说：“我真的很优雅。
I just sidestepped that whole thing.
我只是回避了整件事。
And what might've been a struggle that would go on for days, I just diffused in 10 minutes.
本来可能要持续好几天的挣扎，我只用了十分钟就化解了。
Aren't I cool?" That's a real man in my book.
我不帅吗？”这是我书中的一个真正的男人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade, and indeed, that's true.
到现在为止，我相信你们很多人都听我说过我服用 AG1 已有十多年了，确实如此。
The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我早在 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，并且至今仍然每天服用，因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet, while also providing support for a demanding life.
这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还含有益生菌、益生元和适应原，可以弥补您饮食中可能存在的任何不足，同时也为高要求的生活提供支持。
Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.
鉴于 AG1 中的益生菌和益生元，它还有助于支持健康的肠道微生物组。
The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
肠道微生物组由数万亿个小微生物组成，它们排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.
持续服用 AG1 有助于我的消化，保持我的免疫系统强大，并确保我的情绪和精神焦点始终处于最佳状态。
AG1 is now available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical.
AG1 现已推出三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带味。
And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular.
虽然我一直很喜欢 AG1 原味，尤其是添加了一点柠檬汁，但我真的特别喜欢新的浆果味。
It tastes great, but then again, I do love all the flavors.
味道很棒，但话又说回来，我确实喜欢所有的口味。
If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1 并尝试这些新口味，您可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
Right now, AG1 is giving away six free sample packs of AGZ, which is AG1's new sleep formula, which, by the way, is fantastic.
现在，AG1 正在免费赠送六包 AGZ 样品包，这是 AG1 的新睡眠配方，顺便说一句，非常棒。
It's the only sleep supplement I take.
这是我唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。
It eliminates the need for all these pills, and my sleep has never been better.
它消除了对所有这些药物的需要，而且我的睡眠从未如此好过。
The special offer gives you six free samples of that AGZ, as well as three AG1 travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your first subscription.
特别优惠为您提供 6 个 AGZ 的免费样品，以及 3 个 AG1 旅行包和一瓶维生素 D3 K2。
Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.
只需访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 即可开始。
Two questions about this scenario that we've kind of got structured here.
我们在这里整理了有关此场景的两个问题。
There At least two general types of criticism.
至少有两种一般类型的批评。
One is you did something, you screwed up.
一是你做了某事，你搞砸了。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You screwed up.
你搞砸了。
You did the wrong thing, you did the bad thing, you did something poorly.
你做错了事，你做了坏事，你做了不好的事。
The other is upset about what you didn't do.
另一个人对你没有做的事情感到不安。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in my limit-- I'm not a clinician, obviously, but in my limited number of interactions with men where they share about a frustration, could be from a boss, could be from a partner.
在我的限制范围内——显然，我不是一名临床医生，但在我与男性的有限互动中，他们分享了挫败感，可能来自老板，也可能来自合作伙伴。
Oftentimes, it's what they didn't do.
很多时候，这是他们没有做的事情。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they'll confide that the reason they didn't do it, the reason it seemed like they didn't think about it, is because they are awfully busy doing all the other things that come with being a provider and a partner entails.
他们会坦白说，他们没有这样做的原因，他们似乎没有考虑到这一点的原因，是因为他们非常忙于做作为提供商和合作伙伴所需要的所有其他事情。
And there's the real-world constraints of time, right?
还有现实世界的时间限制，对吗？
And so it's not like, oh, you forgot the anniversary or you forgot the present.
所以这并不是说，哦，你忘记了周年纪念日或忘记了礼物。
It's not this kind.
不是这个类型的。
It's the things that never get asked for that someone doesn't just naturally see.
那些永远不会被要求的东西，人们不会自然地看到。
Look, I'm a vision scientist first and a neuroscientist second, really, and we have giant blind spots about certain things.
听着，我首先是一名视觉科学家，其次是一名神经科学家，真的，我们对某些事情存在巨大的盲点。
Women see and hear things that we just don't.
女人能看到和听到我们看不到和听到的东西。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And men see and hear things that women just cannot see.
男人看到和听到女人看不到的东西。
You're not allowed to say that.
你不被允许这么说。
It's very politically incorrect.
这是非常政治不正确的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But men see things in women that they can't see.
但男人在女人身上看到了他们看不到的东西。
Women see things in men that they can't see.
女人能看到男人身上看不到的东西。
This idea that women are all-knowing and men are dopes-
这种观念认为女人是无所不知的，男人是笨蛋——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
No, no, no, no
不，不，不，不
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is part of what got us here.
这是我们来到这里的原因之一。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That's true.
确实如此。
That's a little-
那是一点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This notion of the Homer Simpson-type thing.
这是荷马·辛普森式的概念。
"I'm fool." There are certainly men like that, but I would say there's a real-world version of Homer Simpson that was actually working very steadily at his job, trying to make things work.
“我是个傻瓜。”确实有这样的人，但我想说的是，现实世界中有一个荷马·辛普森，他实际上在工作中非常稳定地工作，试图让事情顺利进行。
So when it comes to dealing with criticism about what one did not do-
因此，当谈到处理对一个人没有做的事情的批评时——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I can imagine same rules apply, but I think it's only fair to say what aspect of this falls on the partner and the way they raise an issue.
我可以想象同样的规则适用，但我认为公平地说这件事的哪一方面属于合作伙伴以及他们提出问题的方式。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Obviously, characterological assassinations are not going to help.
显然，性格刺杀不会有任何帮助。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They make the jujitsu harder.
它们使柔术变得更难。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It makes it harder to accept responsibility.
这使得承担责任变得更加困难。
But it's going to happen, and it's going to scale with how bad the infraction was, right?
但这将会发生，而且会随着违规的严重程度而扩大，对吗？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
But what is a healthy delivery of a criticism?
但什么是健康地提出批评呢？
Is it all "I" statements?
都是“我”的陈述吗？
Is it purely based on how one feels?
是否纯粹基于一个人的感受？
I'm not trying to distribute responsibility here, but let's be honest, it's a two-way street.
我并不是想在这里分配责任，但说实话，这是一条双向路。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
It's more than a two-way street.
这不仅仅是一条双向街道。
And again, let's own these are broad generalities.
再次强调，这些都是广泛的普遍性。
We both understand that, but we're speaking simply because we've got to start somewhere.
我们都明白这一点，但我们这么说只是因为我们必须从某个地方开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
So I teach women, too, how to be relational.
所以我也教女性如何建立关系。
I'm not saying men aren't relational and women are.
我并不是说男人没有关系而女人却有关系。
We're both pretty screwed up in this culture.
我们都被这种文化搞得一团糟。
And the tough news for a lot of women, I have eight million sayings, and one of them is, "You don't have the right to get mad about not getting what you never asked for."
对于很多女性来说，这是一个坏消息，我有八百万句话，其中之一是，“你没有权利因为没有得到你从未要求过的东西而生气。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you repeat that?
你能再说一遍吗？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
"You don't have the right to get mad about not getting what you never asked for." And that's women stepping out of their traditional role.
“你没有权利因为没有得到你从未要求过的东西而生气。”这就是女性走出传统角色的过程。
"What do you mean?
“你什么意思？
I have to tell him?
我必须告诉他吗？
Prince Charming should just know.
白马王子应该知道。
If I have to tell him, it doesn't count." I literally hear that.
如果我必须告诉他，那也不算数。”我真的听到了。
And what I say is, "Well, gals, Cinderella's dead.
我想说的是，“好了，姑娘们，灰姑娘死了。
Prince Charming probably just came out of rehab." "And I hate to tell you, and I know it's not romantic, but if you want something from your guy, you're going to have to roll up your sleeves and fight for it.
白马王子可能刚刚从康复中心出来。” “我不想告诉你，我知道这并不浪漫，但如果你想从你的男人那里得到什么，你就必须卷起袖子去争取。
You're going to have to assert what you want and then teach him what you want." There are three steps of getting more of what you want in a relationship, and it's particularly true for women because they're the ones carrying the dissatisfaction.
你必须坚持你想要什么，然后教他你想要什么。”要在一段关系中获得更多你想要的东西，需要三个步骤，对于女性来说尤其如此，因为她们是那些不满意的人。
One, dare to rock the boat.
一、敢于破坏现状。
"Honey, this is really important to me.
“亲爱的，这对我来说真的很重要。
I don't think you've been listening.
我认为你没有在听。
You better pay attention." Two, once the guy is on board, "Okay, what do I need?" Teach him.
你最好注意一下。”第二，一旦那个人上船，“好吧，我需要什么？”教他。
Don't expect him to know.
别指望他知道。
I've been listening to women for 40 years tell me men don't know how to be relational.
40 年来，我一直听女性告诉我，男性不知道如何建立关系。
Guess what?
你猜怎么着？
I believe you.
我相信你。
So how are they going to know how to be relational if you don't tell them?
那么，如果你不告诉他们，他们怎么知道如何建立关系呢？
Not that you're the objective teacher, that's a trap, but subjectively, with humility.
并不是说你是客观的老师，这是一个陷阱，而是主观上的谦虚。
"This is Sally instructions.
“这是莎莉的指示。
This is what I want from you to make me happy." But roll up your sleeves and show them what you want, and then reward them when they try and give it to you.
这就是我想要你让我快乐的事情。”但是，卷起袖子告诉他们你想要什么，然后当他们尝试给你东西时奖励他们。
People don't do any of that in this culture.
在这种文化中人们不会做任何事情。
The concrete example is John Gray, God bless him, made millions of dollars on this.
具体的例子是约翰·格雷，上帝保佑他，靠这个赚了数百万美元。
Men problem solve listening, and women want empathic listening.
男人解决倾听的问题，而女人则需要同理心倾听。
There's nothing wrong with either.
两者都没有什么问题。
What's wrong is it doesn't get negotiated up front.
问题在于没有事先进行协商。
So I teach women to say, "Listen, I'm going to talk to you about a fight I had with a girlfriend." 10, 15 minutes.
所以我教女性说：“听着，我要和你谈谈我和女朋友吵架的事。” 10、15 分钟。
First of all, it helps to limit it.
首先，它有助于限制它。
Guys hear we have to talk, they think they're in till 4:00 in the morning.
伙计们听说我们必须谈谈，他们认为他们要待到凌晨 4:00。
15 minutes.
15分钟。
In that 15 minutes, I want you to be like a girlfriend.
在那15分钟里，我希望你像个女朋友一样。
"There, that sucks.
“那儿，真糟糕。
Tell me more about it." I want you to empathically listen.
告诉我更多有关这件事的信息。”我希望你能有同理心地倾听。
This is what it looks like.
这就是它的样子。
We're passive in our relationships.
我们在人际关系中处于被动。
We let each other do what we do, and then we complain about it.
我们让对方做我们做的事，然后我们抱怨。
We shape it.
我们塑造它。
More assertion up front, less resentment on the back end.
前面多一些断言，后面少一些怨恨。
So roll up your sleeves and teach your guy what you want.
所以，卷起袖子，教你的男人你想要什么。
"I don't want you to solve my problems.
“我不想让你解决我的问题。
I want you to do this instead.
我希望你改为这样做。
As a favor to me, would you do it?" Not, "I'm God's gift to relationship.
作为对我的一个恩惠，你愿意吗？”不是，“我是上帝赐予人际关系的礼物。
This is what you need." No. "As a favor to me, would you do it?" And then three, once the guy starts to do it, encourage him, don't discourage him.
这就是你所需要的。”不。“作为我的一个忙，你愿意做吗？”第三，一旦这个人开始这样做，就鼓励他，不要阻止他。
We all, "Oh, well, too little, too late.
我们都说，“哦，好吧，太少了，太晚了。
You did half of it." I tell women, celebrate the glass 14% full.
你已经做到了一半了。”我告诉女性，庆祝杯子满了 14%。
It was only 5% full a week ago.
一周前只有 5% 满员。
"Hey, you did a half-ass job.
“嘿，你干了一件半途而废的事。
Good for you.
对你有好处。
What are we going to do to get the other half on?" But we're discouraging people because we don't want to be vulnerable and receive.
我们该怎么做才能得到另一半呢？”但我们劝阻人们，因为我们不想变得脆弱并接受。
There's an art to receiving.
接收是一门艺术。
So there's an art on both sides of how to work a relationship.
因此，如何处理一段关系，双方都有一门艺术。
And I have to teach women how to be more Empowering of their partner and less complaining of them.
我必须教女性如何更多地赋予她们的伴侣权力，而不是抱怨她们。
And I believe in that, and that's often their work.
我相信这一点，而这往往是他们的工作。
But you can't sit around and wait for your partner to do it right.
但你不能坐等你的伴侣把事情做好。
You have to be able to respond.
你必须能够做出回应。
Whether on Tuesday, they do it beautifully, on Thursday, they're a goddamn asshole, but you still have to respond well.
无论是周二，他们做得很漂亮，周四，他们都是个该死的混蛋，但你仍然必须做出很好的回应。
This is your own integrity, and it's a great freedom to take it upon yourself to behave with integrity and skill independent of what your partner's doing on their side of the seesaw.
这是你自己的正直，这是一种很大的自由，可以让你自己以正直和技巧行事，而不管你的伴侣在跷跷板上做什么。
It doesn't always work, but it's your best shot.
它并不总是有效，但这是你最好的选择。
And you don't have to be a slave to their immaturity.
而且你不必成为他们不成熟的奴隶。
If every time they're immature, you jump in the mud pit with them, you're a flag in their wind.
如果每次他们不成熟的时候，你都和他们一起跳进泥坑里，你就是他们风中的一面旗帜。
It's liberating.
这是一种解放。
You're immature right now.
你现在还不成熟。
I could be immature five minutes from now, but I'm going to meet your immaturity with my maturity right now.
五分钟后我可能会不成熟，但现在我会用我的成熟来迎接你的不成熟。
That is a very beautiful thing.
这是一件非常美好的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
A question about childhood patterns, but rather than get right into the parents' piece of it-
一个关于童年模式的问题，但不要直接进入父母的部分——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which I want to, I have this very crude model in my head that goes something like we all have an inner child or a childlike part of ourselves, and there's a healthy part and an unhealthy part.
我想，我脑子里有一个非常粗糙的模型，就像我们都有一个内在的孩子或孩子气的部分，有健康的部分和不健康的部分。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's kind of wonderful, at least in my experience, to be in the company of someone, especially a romantic partner, where you can be in your kind of childlike-
因为至少以我的经验来看，与某人，特别是与浪漫的伴侣在一起，是一种美妙的感觉，在那里你可以保持童心——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I call that the natural child
我称其为自然孩子
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the natural child.
自然的孩子。
Right.
正确的。
It's healthy, it's explorative, it's fun, it's-
它是健康的，它是探索性的，它是有趣的，它是——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sweet.
甜蜜的。
And sometimes it's mischievous.
有时还很顽皮。
I've certainly observed that.
我确实观察到了这一点。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
But it's lovable.
但它很可爱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very lovable.
非常可爱。
And then there's the unhealthy child, and that could take the form of brattiness, entitlement, whatever, closing up.
然后是不健康的孩子，这可能表现为顽皮、权利等等，封闭。
It could be any variety of things.
它可以是任何种类的东西。
I imagine that a great number of people listening to this conversation are in a relationship, and a great number of them are not.
我想听这段对话的很多人都处于恋爱关系中，而其中也有很多人没有恋爱关系。
How much work and what kind of work can be done to understand those two parts of oneself on one's own?
自己需要做多少工作、什么样的工作才能了解自己的这两部分？
Maybe even if you're in a relationship, because that unhealthy child is a very dangerous thing to show up-
也许即使你们处于恋爱关系中，因为那个不健康的孩子出现是一件非常危险的事情——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a relationship.
在一段关系中。
It can be very destructive, very fast.
它可能非常具有破坏性，而且速度非常快。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if I were a patient- ...
所以如果我是一个病人-...
a client, I don't know what you call them.
客户，我不知道你怎么称呼他们。
Do you call them clients?
你称他们为客户吗？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Customer.
客户。
No, a client.
不，是客户。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Client.
客户。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I were a client, and I just said, "Okay.
如果我是客户，我只是说：“好吧。
Yeah.
是的。
I don't want to talk about my parents right now.
我现在不想谈论我的父母。
We can do that later.
我们可以稍后再做。
But I know the healthy childlike part of myself, and I think I know the unhealthy one, and then what's some good work that I could do to have those understood and have them in their proper place?"
但我知道自己健康的童心部分，我想我也知道不健康的部分，那么我可以做哪些好的工作来让这些被理解并让它们处于适当的位置呢？”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"So that I make sure that I keep the bad childlike Andrew locked away and-
“这样我就能确保把坏孩子气的安德鲁锁起来，然后——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the good childlike Andrew at appropriate times, let him out to play."
善良的孩子气的安德鲁在适当的时候，让他出去玩。”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm very fortunate that my girlfriend now, she's very good at expressing that healthy child, the natural child part of her, and she's also a woman.
我很幸运我现在的女朋友，她非常善于表达那个健康的孩子，她自然的孩子的一部分，而且她也是一个女人。
And again, that part just shuts down, and then she can be in that mode.
再说一次，那部分就关闭了，然后她就可以进入那种模式了。
I've seen this before.
我以前见过这个。
It's really wonderful to experience.
体验真的很美妙。
And when those mesh very seamlessly-
当它们非常无缝地啮合时——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's also just awesome.
这也太棒了。
You're like, wow.
你就像，哇。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She's like total ninja virtuoso of this.
她就像是这方面的忍者大师。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's say I'm not, then what does the work look like?
假设我不是，那么工作是什么样的？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Okay.
好的。
So first of all, you're in a relationship.
所以首先，你们处于恋爱关系中。
Anybody listening to this podcast is in a relationship.
任何收听此播客的人都处于恋爱关系中。
It may not be an intimate sexual relationship.
这可能不是亲密的性关系。
But you've got a boss, you've got colleagues, you've got aunts and uncles, you have cousins, you have a dog.
但你有老板，你有同事，你有阿姨和叔叔，你有表兄弟姐妹，你有一只狗。
We're all embedded in relationships, and the work is the same, no matter what.
我们都融入了人际关系中，无论如何，工作都是一样的。
Relational skills are relational skills.
关系技能就是关系技能。
So I don't care whether you're single or whether you've been married for 40 years.
所以我不在乎你是否单身，也不在乎你是否已结婚40年。
It's the same thing.
这是同样的事情。
That's A.
那是A。
So here's my model.
这是我的模型。
That natural child, leave him be, enjoy, let him play.
那个自然的孩子，让他去吧，享受，让他玩。
Love him.
爱他。
Enjoy him.
享受他。
That's our creativity.
这就是我们的创造力。
And interestingly enough, that's erotic, in the broadest sense of the word.
有趣的是，从最广泛的意义上来说，这就是色情。
That's the life force.
这就是生命力。
That's spontaneity, and that's unhampered, unwounded.
这就是自发性，不受阻碍、不受伤害。
That's a beautiful part of us.
这是我们美丽的一部分。
That's fine.
没关系。
Leave it alone.
别管它。
Celebrate it.
庆祝一下。
What you call the unhealthy child, here's my model.
你所说的不健康的孩子，这是我的模型。
And interestingly, this jives with Dan Siegel, the neuroscientist.
有趣的是，这与神经科学家丹·西格尔 (Dan Siegel) 很合拍。
So I talk about the wise adult part of us, prefrontal cortex, that can stop and think and reason and choose.
所以我谈论我们成人中明智的部分，即前额叶皮层，它可以停下来思考、推理和选择。
That's the part I'm trying to grow and cultivate and give skills to.
这就是我正在努力成长、培养和传授技能的部分。
The issue is when the heat comes on, and it really has to do with trauma.
问题是当热量出现时，它确实与创伤有关。
When something happens in the present that is similar to what was dangerous or injured us in the past.
当现在发生的事情与过去对我们造成危险或伤害的事情相似时。
Could be a violation, could be abandonment.
可能是违规，也可能是遗弃。
It could be either an act of mistreatment or neglect.
这可能是虐待或忽视的行为。
Either.
任何一个。
When something in the present-- You know this, of course.
当当下发生某件事时——你当然知道这一点。
We don't remember trauma, we relive it.
我们不记得创伤，我们重温它。
So the combat vet hears a car backfire and turns around like she's got a gun in her hand.
因此，这位战斗兽医听到汽车回火的声音，然后转过身来，就像她手里拿着枪一样。
She's not thinking, "I'm walking down Main Street remembering combat." She's in combat.
她并没有想：“我走在大街上，回忆起战斗。”她正在战斗。
The present goes away.
现在就消失了。
And it's subcortical, limbic system, amygdala, and you get flooded.
它是皮质下、边缘系统、杏仁核，你会被淹没。
That's what we call the wounded child.
这就是我们所说的受伤的孩子。
Very young.
很年轻。
When I do experiential work with somebody, first minutes of life through four or five years old.
当我和某人一起进行体验式工作时，从生命的最初几分钟到四五岁。
And that's all feeling.
这就是所有的感觉。
That's the part of you that just experienced it.
那是你刚刚经历过的那部分。
Between this very mature, present-based part of us and this totally flooded, very primitive part of us is the part you call the bad child, I call it the adaptive child.
在我们这个非常成熟的、基于当下的部分和这个完全被淹没的、非常原始的部分之间，你称之为坏孩子，我称之为适应性孩子。
This is the you that you learned to be to cope with whatever was going on with you.
这就是你学会如何应对发生在你身上的一切的你。
And it's neither fight, flight, or fawn.
它既不是战斗，也不是逃跑，也不是讨好。
It's automatic, it's subcortical, and it's utterly compelling.
它是自动的，是皮质下的，而且非常引人注目。
I've got to stand up for myself.
我必须为自己挺身而出。
I've got to shut this down.
我必须把这个关掉。
I've got to fix you if you're upset, or I won't...
如果你不高兴的话我必须纠正你，否则我不会...
These are basic animal survival instincts.
这些是动物的基本生存本能。
And when you're in the adaptive child, you won't use relational skills because you're not interested in relationship.
当你处于适应性儿童中时，你不会使用关系技能，因为你对关系不感兴趣。
You're interested in survival.
你对生存感兴趣。
It's literally a different part of our neurology.
它实际上是我们神经病学的不同部分。
And the work I do, I call it relational mindfulness.
我所做的工作，我称之为关系正念。
When you're flooded, you got to bring the prefrontal cortex back online.
当你被洪水淹没时，你必须让前额叶皮层恢复正常。
Take a walk, take 10 breaths, go around the block, take a break.
散步，呼吸 10 次，绕着街区转一圈，休息一下。
I'm a big fan of breaks.
我非常喜欢休息。
Get re-centered in the more thoughtful, non-flooded part of you.
重新集中在你内心更深思熟虑、不被淹没的部分。
Dan calls it the responsive brain instead of the reactive brain.
丹称其为反应性大脑，而不是反应性大脑。
When you're re-centered, I call it remembering love.
当你重新集中注意力时，我称之为记住爱。
You remember the person you're talking to is someone you care about.
您记得正在与您交谈的人是您关心的人。
Then you go back, and you try.
然后你回去尝试。
But we all struggle with these adaptive child parts.
但我们都在与这些适应性儿童部分作斗争。
I deal with couples on the brink of divorce.
我与濒临离婚的夫妇打交道。
Almost all of them have been living in their adaptive child, thinking that that's an adult.
几乎所有人都一直生活在自己的适应性孩子中，认为那是一个成年人。
And the world will reward you.
世界将会回报你。
The world will reward an adaptive child, but you'll make a hash in your family life.
世界会奖励一个有适应能力的孩子，但你会在你的家庭生活中造成混乱。
So fight, flight, or fix.
所以要么战斗，要么逃跑，要么修复。
Anybody listening today, when you're flooded, when you're on automatic, because that's the hallmark of the adaptive child is automatic.
今天任何人在听，当你被淹没时，当你处于自动状态时，因为这是适应性孩子的标志是自动的。
Fight, flight, or fix.
战斗、逃跑或修复。
What are you?
你是做什么的？
And what's your partner?
那你的搭档是什么？
And then what's the dance between you?
那么你们之间的舞蹈是什么？
The more I fight, the more they fix.
我越是反抗，他们就越能解决问题。
The more they fix...
他们修复得越多...
Okay.
好的。
The way out of this is to bring your thinking brain back online, and the beauty here is that capacity, I call it relational mindfulness.
解决这个问题的方法就是让你的思考大脑重新上线，而这里的美妙之处就是这种能力，我称之为关系正念。
That capacity to remember to think, to bring yourself back into the present, can be cultivated and grown.
记住思考、让自己回到当下的能力是可以培养和成长的。
So can I give you a story?
那么我可以给你讲一个故事吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Enough talk.
够了。
Let me tell a story.
让我讲一个故事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, yes, please.
不，是的，请。
Before, I just want-
之前，我只想——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to make sure I ask one question about when one enters this adaptive child, I think that's how you-
为了确保我问一个关于何时进入适应性儿童的问题，我认为这就是你-
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is reactive in the moment-
此刻是反应性的-
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at worst, and one can learn to dance with that and turn on their prefrontal cortex and remind themselves, "This is a relationship that I care about," etc. Taking space, a break, is something-
在最坏的情况下，一个人可以学会与之共舞，打开前额皮质并提醒自己，“这是我关心的一段关系”，等等。腾出空间，休息一下，是——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Essential
必备
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is essential.
是必不可少的。
What's the best way to ask for that?
提出这个要求的最佳方式是什么？
Because here's perhaps something I've observed.
因为这也许是我观察到的一些事情。
Things are getting ratcheted up internally, maybe both people, and you need space.
事情在内部变得越来越紧张，也许是两个人，你需要空间。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You ask for space.
你要求空间。
Like, "Hey, I need to take a break to be able to hear this." And then the other person gets very upset because it activates their sense of abandonment.
就像，“嘿，我需要休息一下才能听到这个。”然后对方会变得非常沮丧，因为这会激发他们的被遗弃感。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it runs countercurrent to this idea that we need to stand in the face of it, jujitsu it, etc. It's a pause.
它与我们需要面对它、柔术等等的想法背道而驰。这是一个停顿。
We're not talking about, "Hey, I'm leaving for a week."
我们不是在谈论“嘿，我要离开一周”。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we're not talking about I'm leaving for an hour, even.
我们甚至不是在谈论我要离开一个小时。
It's just need to decompress this.
只需要解压这个即可。
If that's met with additional criticism about the request, that can be problematic.
如果该请求遭到更多批评，那可能会出现问题。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah, and common as mud.
是的，而且很常见。
So here's what you do.
所以这就是你要做的。
Contract for it when the heat is not on.
未开暖气时签订合同。
"Listen, honey, I get flooded and you don't want me flooded.
“听着，亲爱的，我被洪水淹没了，而你不希望我被洪水淹没。
I'm not nice.
我不是什么好人。
I won't be skilled when I'm flooded.
当我被淹没时，我不会熟练。
I need to collect myself.
我需要振作起来。
It's in your interest to let me go collect myself." I have a skill for everything, and this is a skill I call responsible distance-taking.
让我去收拾心情符合你的利益。”我对所有事情都有技能，我称之为负责任的远距离采取的技能。
Most of us take unilateral, "I'm gone." No. I'm gone.
我们大多数人都采取单方面的态度，“我走了”。不，我走了。
Here's why, and here's when I'm coming back.
这就是原因，这就是我回来的时候。
It's not a rupture, it's a break.
这不是破裂，而是断裂。
So if I have a partner who's vulnerable to abandonment, if I go, "I'm gone." Boom, they're chasing me.
因此，如果我有一个容易被抛弃的伴侣，如果我走了，“我就走了。”砰，他们在追我。
This is a good example of relational skill.
这是关系技巧的一个很好的例子。
If I want distance, let me take care of my partner so she'll give me distance.
如果我想要距离，让我照顾我的伴侣，这样她就会给我距离。
If I don't take care of you, I'm going to get chased.
如果我不照顾你，我就会被追赶。
It's in my interest to behave with skill.
表现得有技巧符合我的利益。
So I say to you, "When we're not flooded, let's have a contract.
所以我对你说，“当我们没有被洪水淹没时，我们就签一份合同。
I get flooded.
我被淹没了。
We don't like it when I get flooded.
我们不喜欢我被洪水淹没。
I want to take a break.
我想休息一下。
Here's what it looks like, 15, 20 minutes, and then I'm back.
大概是这样，15、20 分钟，然后我就回来了。
If I'm not in control, I'll text you or call you and say I need another...
如果我无法控制，我会发短信或打电话给你并说我需要另一个......
I'll negotiate with you.
我会和你谈判。
But I'm not going to leave you.
但我不会离开你。
I'm not going to be irresponsible.
我不会不负责任的。
It's not unilateral, and it's not forever.
这不是单方面的，也不是永远的。
I will be back.
我会回来的。
What do you need in order to be calm enough to let me go?" And nine out of 10 times, it's like, "This contract is fine.
你需要什么才能让我冷静下来？”十分之九的情况是，“这份合同很好。
Remind me of the contract." I'm taking a time out so I can be with you.
提醒我一下合同。”我要抽出一段时间来陪你。
20 minutes, I'll be back.
20分钟，我就回来。
Here's why.
原因如下。
Here's when I'm coming back.
就在我回来的时候。
Okay.
好的。
No more abandonment.
不再被遗弃。
Leave those steps out, you get abandonment.
离开这些步骤，你就会被抛弃。
So it's a really good example of how using relational skill is in your interest.
因此，这是一个很好的例子，说明使用关系技能如何符合您的兴趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's very helpful.
这非常有帮助。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I also realize that how resourced one shows up to interactions like this is a big part of it.
我还意识到，一个人在这样的互动中表现出的资源能力是其中很重要的一部分。
If you're sleep-deprived, overworked, you've got stuff coming at you from other angles, kid has been up all night, financial issues.
如果你睡眠不足、工作过度、你会收到来自其他方面的事情、孩子整晚没睡、财务问题等。
If the well is low, access to these skills becomes infinitely harder.
如果井位较低，获得这些技能就会变得极其困难。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Harder.
更难。
And I don't believe in pleading special circumstances.
我不相信在特殊情况下进行辩护。
This shit is relentless.
这狗屎真是无情。
You don't get a pass.
你没有获得通行证。
I don't care if you were up all night with the kids.
我不在乎你是否和孩子们一起彻夜不眠。
Be immature, be unskilled.
不成熟，不熟练。
I can understand why you would be, and brother, you'll pay the price.
我能理解你为什么会这样，兄弟，你会付出代价的。
So yeah, I get it.
是的，我明白了。
You're sleep-deprived.
你睡眠不足。
It's harder to be mature, and when you behave immaturely, this is the crap you're going to wind up with.
变得成熟更难，当你表现得不成熟时，你就会陷入困境。
It's instant karma.
这是即时的业力。
So the beauty in this is remembering it's in my interest to behave artfully.
因此，这其中的美妙之处在于记住，巧妙地行事符合我的利益。
It's not for them.
这不适合他们。
And one of my sons is in residency right now, and he's out of his mind, and he's sleep-deprived.
我的一个儿子现在正在住院实习，他精神错乱，而且睡眠不足。
And so we don't hear from him for a week.
所以我们已经一周没有收到他的消息了。
And his mom calls.
他妈妈打来电话。
"I'm worried about you.
“我很担心你。
I've been calling.
我一直在打电话。
You don't text.
你不发短信。
I'm worried you're dead on the street.
我担心你死在街上了
I know I'm crazy, but I'm worried about you." He says, "I called, and you weren't there." And I said, "Well, did you leave a message?" "No." I said, "Well, why didn't you leave a message?" "You don't understand what it's like in res..." I didn't have it in me.
我知道我疯了，但我很担心你。”他说：“我打电话过去，你不在。”我说：“嗯，你留言了吗？” “不。”我说：“那你怎么不留言呢？” “你不明白在资源中是什么样子……”我心里没有它。
"Okay, listen, pal, leave a 10-second message.
“好吧，听着，朋友，留下 10 秒的信息。
'I'm alive.
'我还活着。
I'm fine.
我很好。
Don't worry about me.' You'll wind up having less to deal with if you put 10 seconds into it than if you don't put the 10 seconds into it, and then you've got Mom on the phone talking to you for 20 minutes about 'Why can't you be more responsible?' It's up to you, but it's an investment in your future, your well-being." What the prefrontal cortex knows that the limbic system doesn't is it's in my interest to behave well because I'll get less shit for it.
别担心我。如果你花 10 秒的时间，你要处理的事情就会比不花 10 秒的时间少，然后妈妈会在电话里跟你聊 20 分钟，问你“为什么你不能更有责任感？”这取决于你，但这是对你的未来、你的福祉的投资。”前额叶皮层知道边缘系统不知道的是，表现良好符合我的利益，因为这样做我会得到更少的狗屎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't mean to jump into family matters, but having come from the not medical, but science profession, your son had some overlap with places I've been and-
我并不是想谈论家庭事务，但你的儿子不是医学专业，而是科学专业，你的儿子和我去过的地方有一些重叠，而且——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people we know.
我们认识的人。
I don't know him, but I'm about to advocate for him here.
我不认识他，但我要在这里为他辩护。
I suspect, maybe ask him, I suspect that the, could be wrong, but part of the reason he didn't leave a message is when you get...
我怀疑，也许问他，我怀疑，可能是错的，但他没有留言的部分原因是当你得到...
Your son got three degrees from-
你儿子获得了三个学位——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
an elite university.
一所精英大学。
He is doing his residency in medicine.
他正在做医学住院医师实习。
He's clearly a high achiever.
他显然是一位成就很高的人。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he's involved in other things as well.
他还参与了其他事情。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The 10-second message is very hard for a high achiever.
对于一个高成就者来说，10 秒的信息是非常困难的。
It's like you either do things really well or you don't do them.
就像你要么把事情做得很好，要么就不做。
And this is, I'm probably just projecting myself into this here.
这就是，我可能只是将自己投射到这里。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
No, you're right.
不，你是对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes the reason I don't respond to things is I'm like, "I can't do it well, so I'm not going to do it at all." They told us that.
有时我对事情没有反应的原因是我会想，“我做不好，所以我根本不会做。”他们告诉我们的。
If you're not going to do something well, don't do it.
如果你不打算做好某件事，就不要做。
How you do one thing.
你如何做一件事。
And it turns out it's so silly, right?
事实证明这太愚蠢了，对吧？
Because not doing it for 10 seconds is clearly way worse than doing it.
因为 10 秒不做显然比做了更糟糕。
Ten seconds becomes perfect under the circumstances.
在这种情况下十秒就变得完美了。
But high achievers don't hear that.
但高成就者却听不到这些。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So here I am advocating-
所以我在这里提倡——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for your son.
为了你的儿子。
I don't even- ...
我什至不-...
really know him.
真的认识他。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Alexander, are you listening?
亚历山大，你在听吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm going to...
但我要...
And I don't do it because I want to bail him out.
我这样做不是因为我想保释他。
I think everything you're saying is spot on.
我认为你所说的一切都是正确的。
What I felt in that example, I'm like, "Oh, gosh, I can't help but understand." I know that feeling.
我在那个例子中的感受是，“哦，天哪，我情不自禁地理解了。”我知道那种感觉。
You want to do it so badly, but you don't want to do it poorly, so you don't do it.
你非常想做，但又不想做得不好，所以你不做。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah, but that's not relational.
是的，但这没有关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And medicine is saturated with patriarchy.
医学界充斥着父权制。
This is all the hazing that goes on.
这就是所有正在发生的欺凌行为。
This is all masculinity.
这都是男子气概。
It's just like boot camp for the Marines.
这就像海军陆战队的新兵训练营。
And this notion that you either do it excellently or you don't do it at all, it deprives us of being human beings with each other.
这种要么做得很好，要么根本不做的观念，剥夺了我们彼此作为人的权利。
It really gets in the way.
它真的很碍事。
So yeah, you're right.
所以是的，你是对的。
I'm sure that's what he's thinking, and also take a step back.
我确信他就是这么想的，同时也退后一步。
What is in my interest?
什么符合我的利益？
A 10-second message or a 20-minute conversation?
10 秒的消息还是 20 分钟的对话？
I'm busy.
我很忙。
What do I want to do here?
我想在这里做什么？
And this is how we have to start thinking.
这就是我们必须开始思考的方式。
We're not individuals.
我们不是个人。
That's the great fallacy.
这就是大谬误。
We're living in a context.
我们生活在一个环境中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Our relationships are our biospheres.
我们的关系就是我们的生物圈。
We're not separated from them.
我们与他们没有分离。
We're in them, and it's in my interest to do what the biosphere needs because I'm inside it.
我们就在其中，做生物圈需要的事情符合我的利益，因为我就在其中。
That's the new news.
这是新消息。
That's my message to the world.
这就是我向世界传达的信息。
The great mistake this culture has made, the father of family therapy, Gregory Bateson, an anthropologist married to Margaret Mead, genius man, called it humankind's epistemological, philosophical mistake, that we stand outside of nature.
这种文化犯下的巨大错误，家庭治疗之父、人类学家格雷戈里·贝特森（Gregory Bateson），与天才玛格丽特·米德结婚，称其为人类的认识论和哲学错误，即我们站在自然之外。
I get these big burly guys.
我得到了这些魁梧的家伙。
I deal with tough guys.
我和硬汉打交道。
I get these brilliant, "Why should I have to work so hard to please my wife?" I go, "Knock, knock.
我得到了这些精彩的回答，“为什么我必须这么努力工作才能取悦我的妻子？”我说：“敲门，敲门。
You live with her." It's like we have lost the wisdom of ecology.
你和她住在一起。”就像我们失去了生态智慧一样。
You're in this together.
你们在一起。
Indigenous people around the world understand this.
世界各地的原住民都明白这一点。
We don't.
我们不这样做。
We're not above nature dominating it.
我们并没有凌驾于主宰它的自然之上。
And for traditional women, we're not below nature upregulating it, enabling, coding.
对于传统女性来说，我们并不低于自然，对其进行上调、启用、编码。
No, we're in it.
不，我们就在其中。
It's in my interest to do what the biosphere needs because I'm breathing it.
做生物圈需要的事情符合我的利益，因为我呼吸着它。
This is a whole new world for most of the people that I work with.
对于与我一起工作的大多数人来说，这是一个全新的世界。
And by the way, this to me is the essence of the new masculinity
顺便说一句，这对我来说就是新男性气质的本质
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To understand life as a human as relational first.
首先要理解人类的生活是关系性的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Relational and ecological.
关系和生态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I'm not above it, I'm in it and I'm a steward of it.
我不在它之上，我在其中，我是它的管家。
It's in my interest to give to my biosphere.
为我的生物圈做出贡献符合我的利益。
That is wisdom.
这就是智慧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There must be a place for men to develop some of these skills in the company of other men, because that traditionally was the way it was done, right?
必须有一个地方让男人可以在其他男人的陪伴下发展其中一些技能，因为传统上就是这样做的，对吧？
Even if we look back to the, not so much the '40s, because the world was in a different sort of duress, but in the '50s and '60s, there was a certain kind of socializing that-
即使我们回顾过去，与其说是 40 年代，因为世界处于一种不同的胁迫之中，但在 50 年代和 60 年代，存在某种社交活动——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
men did.
男人做到了。
It was-
那是——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Still today.
今天依然如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was often around alcohol.
通常与酒精有关。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And sports.
还有运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, brief anecdote around that.
是的，关于这件事的简短轶事。
When I started graduate school, it was amazing that every Friday they would do a seminar and then they'd have some food and people would go home.
当我开始读研究生时，令人惊奇的是，每个星期五他们都会举办一个研讨会，然后他们会吃一些食物，然后人们就回家。
And I was told by a chair of department, he said, "Do you know that for something like 30 years in this room," it was called the Beach Room, named after Frank Beach at UC Berkeley, one of the great biopsychologists and endocrinologists.
一位系主任告诉我，他说，“你知道吗，在这个房间里呆了大约 30 年”，它被称为“海滩房间”，以加州大学伯克利分校的弗兰克·比奇命名，他是一位伟大的生物心理学家和内分泌学家。
Frank Beach and colleagues would get together, it was all men then, every single evening, not Fridays, every single evening and get trashed.
弗兰克·比奇和同事们会聚在一起，那时都是男人，每个晚上，而不是周五，每个晚上，然后被扔掉。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then basically stagger home to their families.
然后基本上摇摇晃晃地回到家人身边。
This was how it was done.
事情就是这样完成的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very, very different time.
非常非常不同的时间。
And it was standard.
这是标准的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was standard.
这是标准的。
Men smoked and drank and then got drunk and went home.
男人们抽烟喝酒，然后喝醉了回家。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
That was real.
那是真的。
And obviously that's not the way it is now.
显然现在不是这样了。
And I said, "Well, what would you guys talk about?" And you imagine that it would all be about, kind of like fraternity talk and locker room talk.
我说：“好吧，你们会聊什么？”你想象这一切都会有点像兄弟会谈话和更衣室谈话。
He said, "No. We would talk about science.
他说：“不。我们会谈论科学。
We'd talk about grants.
我们会讨论补助金的问题。
Occasionally people would talk about what was going on with their families." But I said, "Why did people do it?" And he said, "It just felt really good to be able to relax and say whatever you wanted." Obviously, there were no phones then or even the internet.
偶尔人们会谈论他们的家人发生的事情。”但我说：“人们为什么这么做？”他说：“能够放松并说出自己想说的话，感觉真的很好。”显然，那时没有电话，甚至没有互联网。
And it was kind of an end of day catharsis.
这是一种一天结束时的宣泄。
And I said, "On average, do you think those men showed up, drunk obviously, better or worse when they got home?" And he said, "Oh, that was our therapy.
我说：“平均而言，你认为那些明显喝醉了的人回家后是好还是坏？”他说：“哦，这就是我们的疗法。
That was absolutely our therapy." Now, I don't doubt that there were elements of abuse and all sorts of things that go with alcoholism.
这绝对是我们的疗法。”现在，我毫不怀疑存在虐待和与酗酒相关的各种事情。
I've been very vocal about the fact that I'm discouraging of people to drink, certainly if they want to be healthier.
我一直直言不讳地表示，我不鼓励人们喝酒，当然如果他们想变得更健康的话。
In very, very low moderation, perhaps, but zero is better than any.
也许是在非常非常低的限度内，但零比任何都好。
But where do men go now to relate to one another in a way that builds healthy relating with romantic partners, builds healthy relating at work?
但是，男人现在应该去哪里才能以一种与浪漫伴侣、在工作中建立健康关系的方式相互联系呢？
Because I'll tell you, just even the notion, I know because I've been told, just the notion of men gathering scares the hell out of a lot of people.
因为我会告诉你，就连这个想法，我知道，因为有人告诉我，光是男人聚集的想法就让很多人感到害怕。
The immediate assumption is when guys get together, bad things happen.
最直接的假设是，当人们聚在一起时，就会发生不好的事情。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the idea.
这就是想法。
But I also think that we've erased some very powerful vessels for self-understanding and for relating and also for throwing off some of the stresses of the day that frankly don't need to walk in the door at home.
但我也认为，我们已经消除了一些非常强大的自我理解和联系的容器，也消除了白天的一些压力，坦率地说，这些压力不需要走进家门。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so guys are trying to do it all alone or on their phones, and then people wonder, and there are a lot of reasons for this, but then people wonder why there's so much dissociation and distraction and worse by way of social media.
因此，人们试图独自或在手机上完成这一切，然后人们想知道，这有很多原因，但随后人们想知道为什么社交媒体会产生如此多的分离和分心，甚至更糟。
It's like if guys can't hang out and talk, not to say drink, but if they can't hang out and talk, then how are they supposed to be their best selves when they go back to their families?
就好像如果男人不能出去玩说话，更不用说喝酒了，但如果他们不能出去玩说话，那么当他们回到家人身边时，他们该如何做最好的自己呢？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
You're dead right.
你说得对。
And we talk about the epidemic of loneliness.
我们谈论孤独的流行。
We're talking about men.
我们正在谈论男人。
A hetero couple, the man dies, women do okay.
一对异性恋，男人死了，女人还好。
The woman dies, men are in deep trouble.
女人死了，男人深陷困境。
Single men are the greatest public health crisis around.
单身男性是最大的公共卫生危机。
And we've talked about relational skills with your family, your woman, your partner if you're gay.
如果你是同性恋，我们还讨论了与你的家人、你的女人、你的伴侣的关系技巧。
How about relational skills with pals?
与朋友的关系技巧怎么样？
And I work with men around getting friends.
我和男人一起工作就是为了交朋友。
Many of the men that I work with have few to no friends, and it's part of my therapy.
与我一起工作的许多男性几乎没有朋友，这是我治疗的一部分。
I want you to start having friends.
我希望你开始交朋友。
And I want them deeper.
我希望它们更深。
And I teach men.
我教男人。
Okay, so the six guys you go golfing with, and you talk about sports and politics and maybe bitch about your wives a little bit, and that's it.
好吧，和你一起打高尔夫球的六个人，你们谈论体育和政治，也许还会抱怨一下你的妻子，仅此而已。
I want you to try, pick one that you think might be most receptive and share something a little more vulnerable with them.
我希望你尝试一下，选择一个你认为最容易接受的人，并与他们分享一些更脆弱的东西。
I've had chronic back pain and I'm getting old.
我患有慢性背痛，而且我已经老了。
It's a little scary.
有点吓人。
Or if you're a young man, I've been out of work for 14 months and I'm getting...
或者，如果你是个年轻人，我已经失业 14 个月了，我正在……
Show some vulnerability and see what they do with it.
展示一些弱点，看看他们会如何利用它。
And you try that with Steve and you get, "Oh, yeah, what about those socks?" He ain't having it.
当你和史蒂夫一起尝试时，你会得到，“哦，是的，那些袜子怎么样？”他没有这个能力
Okay.
好的。
Nice experiment.
不错的实验。
You're done with Steve.
你和史蒂夫的关系已经结束了。
Go back to your superficial relationship.
回到你们表面上的关系。
Enjoy it.
好好享受。
You talk to Dave, and Dave, "You know, I can really hear you, man.
你和戴夫说话，戴夫说：“你知道，我真的能听到你的声音，伙计。
That's tough.
这很难。
I've been worried too about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
我也一直在担心啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊。
My dick ain't working the way it used to." And all of a sudden, you're having a heart-to-heart in a way that you may never have had in your life before.
我的鸡鸡不再像以前那样工作了。”突然间，你们以一种以前从未有过的方式进行了心与心的交流。
So I teach men to experiment And to try and drive their relationships deeper by sharing more and seeing what they get.
所以我教男人去尝试，通过分享更多并看看他们得到了什么来尝试加深他们的关系。
It's not a shoo-in.
这不是稳操胜券。
This guy may be great.
这家伙可能很厉害。
You have to be discriminating.
你必须具有歧视性。
This isn't brain death.
这不是脑死亡。
Protect yourself, be discriminating, but also be courageous.
保护自己，要有辨别力，但也要勇敢。
Open up and try a little more.
敞开心扉，多尝试一点。
The crisis of men being alone and not having other men to support them and share is one of the great problems in modern society.
男人孤独、没有其他男人支持和分享的危机是现代社会的重大问题之一。
On the other hand, I had the privilege of being, and many of your listeners are too young for this, but there was a great guy, Robert Bly, he wrote "Iron John" and he was-
另一方面，我有幸成为这样的人，你们的许多听众都太年轻了，不适合这样做，但有一个伟大的人，罗伯特·布莱，他写了“钢铁约翰”，他是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great book
很棒的书
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
Yeah.
是的。
And he-
而他——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing book
很棒的书
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
he was like the Mr. Men's Movement, guys drumming in the woods.
他就像男人运动先生一样，在树林里敲鼓。
And I went to Moose Lodge, and I was invited.
我去了驼鹿旅馆，我受到了邀请。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you met him?
所以你遇见了他？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I did one of the men's weekends, drumming in the woods with Robert and the guys.
我参加了一个男子周末活动，与罗伯特和其他人一起在树林里打鼓。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the book.
我喜欢这本书。
I think it has some brilliant insight about all boys' relationship to their fathers, even if they didn't know their fathers.
我认为它对所有男孩与父亲的关系都有一些精彩的洞察，即使他们不认识自己的父亲。
And there's this wonderful and terrifying passage in there.
那里有这段奇妙又可怕的段落。
Wonderful because it's so astute, terrifying because it's terrifying, which is, it is the places of absence of the father that the demons enter-
美妙是因为它如此狡猾，可怕是因为它令人恐惧，也就是说，恶魔进入的是父亲不在的地方——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a young boy.
一个小男孩。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
That's absolutely true.
这绝对是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or something like that.
或者类似的东西。
And Bly is a great writer-
布莱是一位伟大的作家——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I didn't capture it well, but that whether or not someone had a close relationship with their father and he was very present, or they didn't, there are these, I think of them as actual physical shards of shadow.
我没有很好地捕捉到这一点，但是无论某人是否与他们的父亲有密切的关系并且他在场，或者他们没有，都有这些，我认为它们是阴影的实际物理碎片。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Of wound.
的伤口。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
That that's where addiction shows up later.
这就是后来成瘾出现的地方。
That's where all sorts of things show.
这就是各种事情的表现。
It depends on the circumstances, but-
这取决于具体情况，但是——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Bly was really ahead of his time.
布莱确实超前于他的时代。
It's awesome that you trained with him.
你和他一起训练真是太棒了。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
No, we danced.
不，我们跳舞了。
We did Sufi dances together and-
我们一起跳苏菲派舞蹈然后-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, so he was into the hippie thing, too?
哦，那么他也喜欢嬉皮士吗？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Drumming in the woods and he was tribal.
在树林里敲鼓，他是部落的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tribal.
部落。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry.
抱歉。
Forgive me.
对不起。
I wasn't trying to be pejorative.
我并不是想贬义。
I'm from Palo Alto.
我来自帕洛阿尔托。
The Grateful Dead are from Palo Alto.
感恩而死乐队来自帕洛阿尔托。
I get a hippie pass.
我得到一张嬉皮士通行证。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Anyway, listen, so there was a wonderful shaman.
不管怎样，听着，有一个很棒的萨满。
I got to tell you this story.
我必须告诉你这个故事。
We're going so straight, but I just love this story.
我们走得这么直，但我就是喜欢这个故事。
So he brought in, Bly, adolescents.
所以布莱，他引进了青少年。
He had all these guys, boomer guys in their 50s and 60s, me included, and he trucked in Bloods and Crips.
他有这么多人，50 多岁和 60 多岁的婴儿潮一代，包括我，他还用卡车运送“血腥”和“瘸子”。
Not only teenagers, but teenagers from urban gangs to do this thing.
不仅是青少年，城市帮派的青少年也会做这种事。
And he really strongly believed that older men needed to teach younger men how to be on the planet, that there was an initiation that was missing in our culture.
他确实坚信，年长的男性需要教导年轻人如何在这个星球上生存，我们的文化中缺少一种启蒙教育。
And Martin Prechtel, the shaman, as these kids were getting off the bus, I love this detail.
萨满马丁·普雷切特尔（Martin Prechtel），当这些孩子们下车时，我喜欢这个细节。
I wasn't there.
我当时不在场。
He told this story, though.
不过，他讲述了这个故事。
I wasn't in it.
我不在其中。
He said, "Give me a sheet." He had a big sheet on the ground.
他说：“给我一张床单。”他的地上有一张大床单。
He goes, "Old Cree shaman custom.
他说道：“古老的克里萨满习俗。
This is a sacred weekend.
这是一个神圣的周末。
We must divest of all metal.
我们必须剥离所有金属。
All metal goes on the sheet." And these gang members are like, knives, brass knuckles, chains, guns, all of their weapons were on the...
所有金属都在板材上。”这些帮派成员就像是，刀，指节铜套，铁链，枪，他们所有的武器都在......
Good.
很好。
There isn't an old Cree...
没有古老的克里语...
That's bullshit.
那是胡说八道。
It was just-
那只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He just made it up
他刚刚弥补了
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
they were just divesting them-
他们只是在剥离它们-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nice
尼斯
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
of their weapons for the weekend.
他们周末的武器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nice.
不错。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
But anyway, but even there, you can go on YouTube and see this.
但无论如何，即使在那里，你也可以在 YouTube 上看到这个。
When it was my turn to speak to the men, I said, "This is beautiful what we're doing with each other.
当轮到我和这些人说话时，我说：“我们在一起做的事情真是太美好了。
It's beautiful.
很漂亮。
It's necessary, and now we have to take it home to our families.
这是必要的，现在我们必须把它带回家给我们的家人。
It's great for us to be intimate with each other, but we can't be intimate with each other for the weekend and go home and be assholes to our wives and kids."
对我们来说，彼此亲密固然很好，但我们不能在周末彼此亲密，然后回家对我们的妻子和孩子做混蛋。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an amazing story at so many levels, and it brings to mind something I've been thinking about for a number of years, which is, okay, I wasn't in a university fraternity, but I entered a fraternity of way back when and got involved in skateboarding when there were no parents involved, there were no girls or women involved.
这是一个在很多层面上都令人惊叹的故事，它让我想起了多年来我一直在思考的事情，那就是，好吧，我并没有加入大学兄弟会，但我很久以前就加入了兄弟会，并参与了滑板运动，当时没有父母参与，没有女孩或妇女参与。
There was one or two, but it was just a bunch-
有一两个，但只是一堆——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
It was a guy territory
这是一个男人的领地
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it was all guys.
都是男人。
And the interesting thing about skateboarding is, to this day, you can be 13, and you're hanging out with people that are in their 30s and 40s, right?
滑板运动的有趣之处在于，直到今天，你可以在 13 岁的时候，和 30 多岁、40 多岁的人一起出去玩，对吧？
So that was my first, I used to say non-biological family, but it was a fraternity of sorts.
所以这是我的第一个，我过去常常说非血缘家庭，但它是某种兄弟会。
You sort of like, "I want to be in," and then there's a bunch of tests or not tests, and you're part of it.
你有点像，“我想加入，”然后有一堆测试或不测试，你就是其中的一部分。
And then eventually, I joined the fraternity of science and research, which is its own very interesting, different podcast topic, fraternity with its own great aspects and its own complete bullshit and et cetera.
最终，我加入了科学研究兄弟会，这是它自己非常有趣的、不同的播客主题，兄弟会有自己伟大的方面和自己完整的废话等等。
It's like any fraternity.
就像任何兄弟会一样。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you talk about the crisis of loneliness, especially among men, but even for people who are perhaps happily or at least amicably in relationship, I feel like what's missing are these quote unquote "fraternities"-
当你谈论孤独危机时，尤其是在男性中，但即使对于那些可能幸福或至少友好地关系的人来说，我觉得缺少的是这些引用不引用的“兄弟情谊”——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that they're harder to access now.
现在他们更难访问了。
And people have gone online.
人们已经上网了。
I actually think part of the success of podcasts, certain podcasts in particular, has been because if you didn't go to the military or something, you watch a Jocko Willink podcast, and Jocko Willink looks like the modern General Patton.
事实上，我认为播客（特别是某些播客）成功的部分原因是，如果你没有去参军或其他什么地方，你会观看乔科·威林克的播客，而乔科·威林克看起来就像现代的巴顿将军。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he's a very nice guy, but he's a no-nonsense guy.
他是一个非常好的人，但他是一个严肃的人。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's a very kind, he's an amazing father, amazing husband to his wife, and great friend, but he's a warrior.
他是一个非常善良的人，他是一位了不起的父亲，对他的妻子来说是一个了不起的丈夫，也是一个很好的朋友，但他是一个战士。
He's a legitimate warrior.
他是一名合法的战士。
And so young men and old men now go online to feel like part of a fraternity, to access these different fraternities, so to speak.
因此，年轻人和老年人现在上网感觉自己是兄弟会的一部分，可以这么说，访问这些不同的兄弟会。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think there's real value in the in-person work and collaboration, and to some extent, what I described before about the excessive drinking at the end of the day in the beach room in Tolman Hall at Berkeley that took place in the 40s, 50s, and 60s- That was a fraternity.
但我认为面对面的工作和合作是真正有价值的，在某种程度上，就像我之前描述的那样，发生在 40 年代、50 年代和 60 年代，在伯克利托尔曼大厅的海滩房间里一天结束时过度饮酒——那是兄弟会。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I had it in family therapy.
我在家庭治疗中接受过它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
But it was an important part of learning not just the conventions of the job you're in, but where you sit in this...
但这不仅是学习你所从事工作的惯例的重要组成部分，也是学习你在这个职位上的位置的重要组成部分......
It's a very touchy word, it's like a third rail word nowadays, the hierarchy, right?
这是一个非常敏感的词，就像现在的第三个词，等级制度，对吧？
But the way I see hierarchy among men is very different.
但我对男性等级制度的看法却截然不同。
I feel like within a fraternity, you figure out not where you sit on a kind of staircase.
我感觉就像在兄弟会里，你不知道自己坐在楼梯的什么地方。
You figure out what you're good at, what you're less good at, what you might get better at, and what you'll never get good at.
你会弄清楚自己擅长什么，不擅长什么，可能会变得更好，以及永远不会擅长什么。
And then you kind of arrange yourselves in a group that you go, "This is great.
然后你们把自己安排在一个小组中，然后说：“这太棒了。
I'm really good at certain things, terrible at others, and so-so at others." Fortunately, there's complementarity here.
我在某些事情上真的很擅长，在另一些事情上很糟糕，在另一些事情上又马马虎虎。”幸运的是，这里存在互补性。
They're really good at other things, and so you can learn.
他们在其他方面真的很擅长，所以你可以学习。
And you feel empowered in the best sense of the word because you're like, "Yeah, we're kind of a force because there's no major gaps here." But not because everyone's validating each other and you're interested in going out and doing bad things.
从最好的意义上来说，你会感到自己被赋予了力量，因为你会想，“是的，我们是一股力量，因为这里没有重大差距。”但这并不是因为每个人都在互相认可，而你却有兴趣出去做坏事。
I actually think this is why people go into gangs.
我实际上认为这就是人们加入帮派的原因。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Gangs are a-
帮派是一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a fraternity
这是一个兄弟会
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
gangs are a family.
帮派是一个家庭。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a fraternity.
这是兄弟会。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the home was never the place where you were supposed to feel fraternity.
家从来都不是你应该感受到兄弟情谊的地方。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think this is a difficult one for men and women to understand and hear, but especially men nowadays, where young guys will come to me and they'll be like, "I don't know what to do.
我认为这对于男人和女人来说是很难理解和听到的，尤其是现在的男人，年轻人会来找我，他们会说，“我不知道该怎么办。
What should I study?
我应该学习什么？
What should I do?" This is not the Stanford students.
我该怎么办？”这不是斯坦福大学的学生。
These are the some failure to launch or potential failure to launch kids.
这些是一些发射失败或发射孩子可能失败的情况。
Parents now call me, text me, they get a hold of me, "My kid is a da, da, da." And I'm like, "They have no fraternity."
父母们现在打电话给我，发短信给我，他们会抓住我，“我的孩子是一个达，达，达。”我想，“他们没有兄弟情谊。”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Their fraternity is video games.
他们的兄弟情谊是电子游戏。
That's not a fraternity.
那不是兄弟会。
They don't have a group that they can go to to figure out what they're good at, what they suck at, and what they could get better at.
他们没有一个可以让他们了解自己擅长什么、不擅长什么以及可以做得更好的小组。
And so they walk around, and forgive me for going long, but I think that because online you can see all the fraternities, what I also hear is they're overwhelmed.
所以他们四处走动，并原谅我说得太久了，但我认为因为在网上你可以看到所有的兄弟会，我也听到他们不知所措。
They're like, "Wait, I'm supposed to work out, I'm supposed to also eat right, I'm supposed to be empathically attuned, I'm supposed to be a provider and protector." And they're like, "Holy shit, this is really tough." I was fortunate that, and you were fortunate, we grew up in a time where the models were whatever we were interacting with.
他们会说，“等等，我应该锻炼身体，我应该吃得正确，我应该具有同理心，我应该成为一个提供者和保护者。”他们就像，“天哪，这真的很难。”我很幸运，你也很幸运，我们成长在一个模型就是我们所互动的时代。
Like when I decided to go into the fraternity of science, sure, I kept exercising and stuff, but what I was like, "Okay, how do I get good at this thing?
就像当我决定进入科学界时，当然，我一直在锻炼等等，但我当时的想法是，“好吧，我怎样才能擅长这件事呢？
Who are the good mentors?
谁是好导师？
Who are the pieces of shit mentors?" We all talk, and you're in this fraternity, and you learn.
谁是那些狗屎导师？”我们都会交谈，而你在这个兄弟会中，你会学习。
Now, that fraternity included women, because academia, at least in biology at that time, was about 50/50.
现在，这个兄弟会包括了女性，因为学术界，至少在当时的生物学领域，大约是 50/50。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At the faculty level, it's a steep shift.
在教师层面，这是一个急剧的转变。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's changed somewhat now.
现在情况有所改变。
But the point being, it was never about getting everything from your romantic relationship.
但重点是，这绝不是为了从恋爱关系中获得一切。
The learning, the indoctrination, the learning of self, and the kind of self-esteem and acceptance, a lot of that happened in this context.
学习、灌输、自我学习、自尊和接受，很多都是在这种背景下发生的。
And I understand there's not a carry-over of skills to the home necessarily, but it filled a good fraction of the vessel of feeling like, yeah, far from perfect.
我知道技能不一定会延续到家里，但它在很大程度上让我感觉，是的，远非完美。
Believe me, I'm replete with flaws to this day.
相信我，直到今天我仍然充满了缺陷。
I say it over and over again, and it's true.
我说了一遍又一遍，这是真的。
But where are the fraternities that young men and older men can go to if they don't have one?
但是，如果年轻人和年长的男人没有兄弟会，他们可以去哪里呢？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That's tough.
这很难。
I'm a big fan of doing men's group.
我非常喜欢男子团体。
I love men's groups.
我喜欢男子团体。
You don't need a therapist to lead it.
你不需要治疗师来引导。
You get together with four other guys and just start talking about your lives.
你和另外四个人聚在一起，开始谈论你们的生活。
Do a bowling league.
举办保龄球联赛。
I want to say two things.
我想说两件事。
One is, I want the fraternity to support your relationality-
一是，我希望兄弟会支持你们的关系——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
not your individual empowerment and entitlement.
不是您个人的赋权和权利。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I see fraternity as only being relational.
我认为兄弟情谊只是关系性的。
Anything that you could do on your own is not really relational.
任何你自己能做的事情都不是真正的关系。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
In my mind, it's sort of like-
在我看来，这有点像——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
to get together with four other guys and bitch about what a rotten life this is and how women are, being incel.
和另外四个男人聚在一起，抱怨这是多么糟糕的生活，以及女人是怎样的非独身者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That-
那——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that's happening online.
嗯，这正在网上发生。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It might be happening in person.
这可能发生在个人身上。
But no, I totally agree.
但不，我完全同意。
Obviously, it would be to cultivate oneself.
显然，是为了修炼自己。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
No, no.
不，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not to...
不是为了...
Because there's something, look, we all do it, we all complain from time to time.
因为有一些事情，你看，我们都这样做，我们都会时不时地抱怨。
Although I have friends who don't have the circuits, and it's really impressive.
虽然我有朋友没有电路，但它确实令人印象深刻。
But I think that complaining is a form of self-abuse.
但我认为抱怨是一种自虐。
I do.
我愿意。
I think there's a threshold beyond which complaining becomes a form of self-abuse.
我认为有一个阈值，超过这个阈值，抱怨就会成为一种自虐形式。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Well, going back to having friends and training friends and cultivating friends, one of the things I teach guys is you want to train your friends to support your relationship, not your individual empowerment.
好吧，回到拥有朋友、训练朋友和培养朋友的话题，我教给大家的一件事是，你要训练你的朋友来支持你的关系，而不是你的个人赋权。
So, "Oh my God, I had such a hard time with Belinda, blah, blah, blah." I don't want to hear you talk to me about what a bitch she is.
所以，“天哪，我和贝琳达相处得很艰难，等等，等等。”我不想听你跟我说她是个多么混蛋的人。
Or maybe you can start that way.
或者也许你可以这样开始。
But pretty quickly, what I want to hear is, "Okay, Terry, what did you do to contribute to that?
但很快，我想听到的是，“好吧，特里，你为此做了什么贡献？
And what might you do differently?" I want you to support the mature part of me and the relational part of me, not my individual empowerment.
你会采取什么不同的做法？”我希望你支持我成熟的部分和我的关系部分，而不是我的个人赋权。
And we have to train people to do that because our culture will gravitate toward individual empowerment.
我们必须培训人们做到这一点，因为我们的文化将倾向于个人赋权。
I wouldn't put up with that if I was you.
如果我是你，我就不会忍受这样的事情。
That's not the support I want.
这不是我想要的支持。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Recently, I've been approached again, parents will reach out, and I have a real soft spot for doing this, and they'll say their son.
最近，又有人联系我，父母会主动联系我，我对这样做真的情有独钟，他们会说他们的儿子。
It's always their son, right?
永远都是他们的儿子，对吧？
No one's reaching out about their daughter to me.
没有人向我询问他们的女儿。
They're saying, "My son is, it's a real problem." Right?
他们说：“我的儿子，这是一个真正的问题。”正确的？
"He either graduated college and he's going nowhere," these are smart kids, or they didn't graduate and it's getting scary now.
“他要么大学毕业了，哪儿也不去，”这些都是聪明的孩子，要么他们没有毕业，现在变得越来越可怕。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we had them checked out for the ADHD, the depression thing, and nowadays there's all this information.
我们检查了他们是否患有多动症、抑郁症，现在有了所有这些信息。
People try a bunch of things, and it's just very clear they're on not a good path.
人们尝试了很多事情，但很明显他们走的路并不好。
When I talk to these guys, 100% of the time, what they are asking for is not to figure out how to be in relationship.
当我和这些人交谈时，100%的情况下，他们所要求的并不是弄清楚如何建立关系。
In fact, in more than a few cases, they're already in relationship, and they have the really caring, wonderful partner.
事实上，在很多情况下，他们已经处于恋爱关系中，并且拥有真正关心、很棒的伴侣。
And sadly, a lot of these women have gotten used to the fact that a lot of guys are kind of failure to launch, and she's taken off, and he's at home, and we don't know how that's going to play out.
可悲的是，这些女人中的很多人已经习惯了这样一个事实：很多男人都未能成功，她离开了，他在家，我们不知道结果会如何。
But can't be good, not in the long term.
但从长远来看，这不可能是好事。
But the questions are always, to me, are about what do I do?
但对我来说，问题始终是我该怎么办？
How can I find a group?
我怎样才能找到一个团体？
How can I find work?
我怎样才能找到工作？
How can I be part of something?
我怎样才能成为某事的一部分？
They want to be part of something.
他们想成为某事的一部分。
And they're smart, and their parents are smart.
他们很聪明，他们的父母也很聪明。
They're realizing that just, podcasts are great, but ultimately, this isn't going to happen, but maybe you watch one podcast a week, and you get together with friends, and you watch it, and then you talk about it.
他们意识到，播客很棒，但最终这不会发生，但也许你每周看一个播客，然后你和朋友聚在一起，看它，然后谈论它。
Okay, that's not going to happen.
好吧，那不会发生。
That's not really how it works.
事实并非如此。
But they're alone.
但他们很孤独。
They don't have male friends.
她们没有男性朋友。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They don't have the golf buddies.
他们没有高尔夫球友。
And this is a new thing to me, like guys in, these are guys in their 20s, sometimes in their 30s, and very often they've, no knock against antidepressants, where sometimes they have their use, but very often there's a story about they've been on four different medications for high school and also for college.
这对我来说是一件新鲜事，就像那些20多岁的人，有时是30多岁的人，很多时候他们没有对抗抑郁药，有时他们有用，但很多时候有一个故事说他们在高中和大学时服用了四种不同的药物。
They've got sexual health issues.
他们有性健康问题。
Maybe it's neurotic.
也许是神经质吧。
Maybe it's biological related to the medications.
也许这与药物有关。
Who knows?
谁知道？
And they're stressed about their hair falling out.
他们还因为头发脱落而感到压力。
They're stressed about all this stuff, and they're completely overwhelmed.
他们对所有这些事情感到压力，并且完全不知所措。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And my advice is always like to listen, and it's not, but I always think like the first thing is like, again, I have to be careful not to project what I'd do, is like, "Do you have a driver's license?" "Yeah." "All right.
我的建议总是喜欢听，但事实并非如此，但我总是认为第一件事就是，我必须小心，不要预测我会做什么，就像，“你有驾照吗？” “是的。” “好吧。
Do you know one person who's able-bodied who you trust?" "Yeah." "All right, go to Yosemite and hike." Like, that's my advice.
你认识一个你信任的、身体健全的人吗？” “是的。” “好吧，去优胜美地徒步吧。”就像，这就是我的建议。
It's not super sophisticated.
它不是超级复杂。
Go.
去。
Like, your phone won't work.
就像，你的手机无法使用。
Go to Tuolumne Meadows.
前往图奥勒米草甸。
Don't freeze to death.
别冻死了。
Like, bring water.
比如，带水。
Don't be an idiot.
别是个白痴。
Don't get giardia.
不要感染贾第鞭毛虫。
Read a book or two online, or read a few things, and just go to Yosemite and hike.
在网上读一两本书，或者读一些东西，然后去优胜美地徒步旅行。
Make a friend by going and doing something.
通过去做某事来交朋友。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That's cool.
太酷了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And like, because that's, to be honest, I know what they want.
就像，因为说实话，我知道他们想要什么。
They want a job.
他们想要一份工作。
They want to come work at the podcast, but they don't actually want that.
他们想来播客工作，但他们实际上并不想要那样。
Because you come here, and we're working.
因为你来到这里，而我们正在工作。
Right?
正确的？
And we hang out, but the, I'm hearing this so often.
我们一起出去玩，但是，我经常听到这样的说法。
My phone, I've got a list this long of guys, some of them have tried to harm themselves.
我的手机里有这么长的名单，其中一些人曾试图伤害自己。
I had a colleague kill himself recently.
我的一位同事最近自杀了。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Oh, sorry.
哦，抱歉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Married, two kids, kill himself.
已婚，有两个孩子，自杀吧。
And I realized I didn't help him the right way.
我意识到我没有以正确的方式帮助他。
He reached out about some things.
他伸出手来谈论一些事情。
I should have said, "Get your stuff.
我应该说：“拿走你的东西。
We're going to Yosemite." Like, "We're taking a weekend, and we're going hiking."
我们要去优胜美地。”就像，“我们要度周末，我们要去徒步旅行。”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's really wild because I feel like there are certain things that you just can't do on your own.
这真的很疯狂，因为我觉得有些事情是你自己无法完成的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And all the stuff you're talking about, which is incredible, about relating to romantic partner, these guys have romantic partners.
你所说的所有关于与浪漫伴侣有关的事情，令人难以置信，这些人都有浪漫的伴侣。
But they're collapsing independent of that.
但他们正在崩溃独立于此。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That's not the only relationship you need to have.
这不是您需要拥有的唯一关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
You need to have a place in the world, and you need to have good work, and you need to have a purpose, and you need to have community, and you need to have other buddies.
你需要在世界上占有一席之地，你需要有好的工作，你需要有一个目标，你需要有社区，你需要有其他朋友。
And you can also have buddies who are women, too.
你也可以有女性朋友。
I mean-
我的意思是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
I don't want to get so narrow in the idea of fraternity.
我不想让兄弟情谊的概念变得如此狭隘。
I'm going to say I want community.
我会说我想要社区。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Because why everybody's turning to you is like, "Well, you be a good dad.
因为为什么每个人都转向你，就像，“好吧，你是一个好爸爸。
You be a mentor.
你当导师。
Here, take my kid, and they need you." Of course.
来吧，带上我的孩子，他们需要你。”当然。
They do.
他们确实这么做了。
And You're right.
你是对的。
Go be with somebody.
去和某人在一起吧。
And you don't have to have a heart-to-heart.
而且你们不必进行心与心的交流。
I don't want you to have nobody that you can have a heart-to-heart with, but let's start somewhere and just go be with someone.
我不希望你没有一个可以谈心的人，但让我们从某个地方开始，和某人在一起吧。
That's community.
这就是社区。
And yes, men with men, but also just community in general.
是的，男人与男人，但也只是一般的社区。
It doesn't have to be a man.
它不一定是一个男人。
And I do want to say this.
我确实想说这一点。
Men don't exclusively need men to teach them how to be men.
男人并不只需要男人来教他们如何成为男人。
Lesbian parents can teach boys how to be men.
女同性恋父母可以教男孩如何成为男人。
Single moms can teach boys how to be men.
单亲妈妈可以教男孩如何成为男人。
We get obsessed with this idea that only a man can raise a boy, and the research is clear.
我们痴迷于只有男人才能养育男孩的想法，研究是明确的。
That's just not true.
那不是真的。
I talk about we need grown-ups to teach children how to be grown-ups.
我说我们需要成年人来教导孩子如何成为成年人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And, yeah, if you're a boy, you want to have a few men who you can look up to, who you can go, "Oh, yeah, I want to be like him." Of course, we need that.
而且，是的，如果你是一个男孩，你想要有一些你可以尊敬的男人，你可以去，“哦，是的，我想像他一样。”当然，我们需要那个。
And let's not get so obsessed about it that we disempower other people to be.
我们不要过于沉迷于此，以至于剥夺了其他人的权力。
Some of my greatest mentors were women.
我的一些最伟大的导师是女性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, likewise.
哦，同样。
My graduate mentor was a woman.
我的研究生导师是一位女性。
I learned more about life from her-
从她身上我学到了更多关于人生的知识——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and science than I could've ever imagined.
和科学超乎我的想象。
Right?
正确的？
And actually, moms of friends of mine when I was growing up were awesome examples and those weren't extensive, rich conversations, but I've got eyes and I got ears and I could observe, "Oh, that's a different way of relating-
事实上，我成长过程中朋友的妈妈就是很棒的例子，那些谈话并不广泛、丰富，但我有眼睛、有耳朵，我可以观察到，“哦，这是一种不同的联系方式——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or being." I totally agree.
或存在。”我完全同意。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
But there is something wonderful about guys going off and being guys.
但男人们离开并成为男人有一些美妙的事情。
Peggy Papp was a great family therapist married to Arthur-- I mean Peggy Penn, married to Arthur Penn, the guy who did, "Bonnie and Clyde," and she told a wonderful story about her husband.
佩吉·帕普（Peggy Papp）是一位伟大的家庭治疗师，嫁给了亚瑟（Arthur Penn）——我指的是佩吉·佩恩（Peggy Penn），嫁给了亚瑟·佩恩（Arthur Penn），他是《邦妮与克莱德》的拍摄者，她讲述了一个关于她丈夫的精彩故事。
Every Sunday, he would go out with the same guys and play golf.
每个周日，他都会和同样的人出去打高尔夫球。
And he would come home, and Peggy would say, "What'd you talk about?" And he'd go, "Oh, the lay of the green, what we're going to drink at the bar." And one day, Peggy says she said to her husband, "Look, Arthur, I'm a gender expert.
当他回到家时，佩吉会说：“你们在说什么？”他会说，“哦，绿色的地方，我们要在酒吧喝什么。”有一天，佩吉说她对丈夫说：“看，亚瑟，我是一位性别专家。
I go around the world talking about it.
我环游世界谈论它。
Next time you go off with your guys, I want you to come home and I want you to talk to me about feelings, about depth, about something more than the goddamn lay of the green, for Christ's sake." Okay.
下次你和你的队友们出发时，我希望你能回家，我希望你能和我谈谈感受、谈谈深度，以及一些比该死的果岭更重要的事情，看在上帝的份上。”好的。
She comes home a week later.
一周后她回家了。
"You went?" "Yeah, I played golf." "What'd you guys talk about?" "Oh, honey, Bill was incested by his nanny when he was four, and Harry lost his dog when he was three and he never got over it.
“你去了？” “是的，我打过高尔夫球。” “你们聊了什么？” “哦，亲爱的，比尔四岁时被他的保姆乱伦，而哈利三岁时失去了他的狗，他一直没有从这件事中走出来。
And Steve thinks he's got a really small penis." And Peggy looked at him and go, "You're full of shit, right?" He said, "We played golf."
史蒂夫认为他的阴茎非常小。”佩吉看着他，说道：“你满嘴都是狗屎，对吧？”他说：“我们打高尔夫球。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that was a great story.
是的，那是一个很棒的故事。
I'm a big fan of the movie, "Stand by Me."
我是电影《伴我同行》的忠实粉丝。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sadly, Reiner was murdered the other day.
可悲的是，莱纳前几天被谋杀了。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that was a brilliant movie.
但那是一部精彩的电影。
It's actually an important movie, despite it being a real timepiece-
这实际上是一部重要的电影，尽管它是一部真正的手表——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because it's that age right before boys, they're either hitting puberty or they haven't hit puberty, and there's this interesting thing that happens where their self-concept is still in childhood.
因为这是男孩之前的那个年龄，他们要么正在进入青春期，要么还没有进入青春期，而他们的自我概念仍处于童年时期，就会发生这种有趣的事情。
They're talking about superheroes and cartoons.
他们正在谈论超级英雄和卡通片。
They have this argument about whether or not Mighty Mouse or Superman would win a fight.
他们争论小老鼠和超人是否会赢得战斗。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Love it.
爱它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And one of them goes, "Well, that's ridiculous.
其中一个人说：“好吧，这太荒谬了。
Superman's a real person, right?" It's awesome.
超人是一个真实的人，对吗？”太棒了。
And then one of them, the late River Phoenix, he's so clearly ahead of all of the other kids because of the rough environment, but also he's just developmentally more ahead of the game.
其中之一，已故的瑞弗·菲尼克斯（River Phoenix），由于恶劣的环境，他明显领先于所有其他孩子，而且他在发展上也更领先于比赛。
So it's an interesting thing about getting out and moving through space with people, I think is good.
因此，走出去并与人们一起在太空中移动是一件很有趣的事情，我认为这很好。
Whether or not it's golf, which I consider a very slow movement-
不管是不是高尔夫，我认为这是一个很慢的运动——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Huh
呵呵
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or it's hiking or-- Also, the nice thing about walking and hiking is that it doesn't require any significant athleticism.
或者徒步旅行或者——此外，步行和徒步旅行的好处是它不需要任何显着的运动能力。
So as long as you bring water and some food, and if you're camping, you can camp or you can sleep in your car.
所以只要带上水和一些食物，如果露营的话，可以露营，也可以睡在车里。
It's just like our day hike.
这就像我们一天的徒步旅行一样。
It's just so simple.
就是这么简单。
I will say, because I do want to talk about substance use-
我会说，因为我确实想谈论药物滥用-
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and abuse.
和虐待。
Anytime I hear, I always ask, "Are you smoking weed?"
每当我听到时，我总是会问：“你吸大麻吗？”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not somebody who judges anyone if they're into it, but young guys who are doing a lot of high-THC cannabis seems, from my experience, my data set, very highly correlated with significant problems, apathy being one of them-
我不是一个会评判任何人是否参与其中的人，但根据我的经验和我的数据集，大量吸食高 THC 大麻的年轻人似乎与重大问题高度相关，冷漠就是其中之一 -
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
It makes you passive
会让你变得被动
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and a bunch of other mood regulation issues.
以及一系列其他情绪调节问题。
Right.
正确的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Same thing with drinking.
喝酒也一样。
If they're drinking too much, I'm like, "Listen, go to a 12-step meeting." You can't be drinking, smoking weed, and not have a job.
如果他们喝得太多，我会说，“听着，参加一个 12 步会议。”你不可能一边喝酒、一边吸大麻、一边没有工作。
Because it's just very clear how, as someone once put it, how that plays out.
因为正如有人曾经说过的那样，事情的结果是非常清楚的。
There are other things there.
那里还有其他东西。
I feel like I have a responsibility to say that there are other points of suggestion.
我觉得我有责任说一下还有其他几点建议。
Usually, it starts, however, with, "What supplement should I take?
然而，通常情况下，它会以“我应该服用什么补充剂？
Should I be taking creatine?"
我应该服用肌酸吗？”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm like, "How's your life?" "Oh, it's a mess." "Well, you in a relationship?" "Yeah, I got a girlfriend." "Is it great?" "Yeah, she's super sweet." "Are you working?" "No. She's working.
我说：“你的生活怎么样？” “哦，真是一团糟。” “嗯，你们有恋爱关系吗？” “是啊，我有女朋友了。” “很棒吗？” “是啊，她超级可爱。” “你在工作吗？” “不，她在工作。
She's at school." Okay, and then you start getting the picture, and you're like, "Okay, creatine ain't going to fix this."
她在学校。”好吧，然后你开始明白了，你会想，“好吧，肌酸并不能解决这个问题。”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In fact, getting in shape can be empowering, but you're just spending all your time at the gym scrolling on social media, taking pictures of your abs-
事实上，保持体形可以赋予你力量，但你只是把所有的时间都花在健身房里刷社交媒体、拍腹肌照片——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Huh
呵呵
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then you don't have any friends.
然后你就没有朋友了。
That's a disaster waiting to happen.
这是一场即将发生的灾难。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And a place in the world.
并在世界上占有一席之地。
Our economy is not great, and AI is going to come in, and these kids are having a hard time finding a career and a job and meaning in the world.
我们的经济并不好，而人工智能将会进来，而这些孩子很难在世界上找到职业、工作和意义。
And you do get a dichotomy a lot of times where you have a man, a young man, who is relationally skilled But not powerful.
很多时候你确实会遇到二分法，一个男人，一个年轻人，他的关系很熟练，但并不强大。
No place in the world.
世界上没有一个地方。
That goes back to what I was talking about, you can have feelings and be a big baby about it.
这又回到了我刚才所说的，你可以有感情，并且可以像个大孩子一样对待它。
It's both.
两者都是。
You have to be relationally skilled, and you have to be assertive and have meaning and have a spot in the world and a career.
你必须具备处理人际关系的技巧，你必须自信、有意义、在世界上占有一席之地并拥有一份职业。
And I love to tell stories.
我喜欢讲故事。
Can I tell you a story?
我可以给你讲一个故事吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
This is my quintessential what it means to be a man story.
这就是我的故事的精髓：作为一个男人意味着什么。
True story.
真实的故事。
So I had the privilege of going to Maasailand in Tanzania, where we had to drive 10 hours to this very remote village, which friends of mine were building a school with them, so they knew them and loved them.
所以我有幸去了坦桑尼亚的马赛兰，在那里我们必须开车10个小时才能到达这个非常偏远的村庄，我的朋友正在和他们一起建造一所学校，所以他们认识他们并且喜欢他们。
And so I had a men's group with the elders of this tribe for four nights, and we talked about everything, God, women, death, whatever.
所以我和这个部落的长老们组成了一个男人小组，为期四个晚上，我们谈论一切，上帝、女人、死亡，等等。
And at one point, I said to them, "So there's a big debate in my country about what makes a good Morani." Morani warrior man, one word.
有一次，我对他们说：“所以，在我的国家，关于什么才是优秀的莫拉尼人存在着一场大辩论。”莫拉尼战士，一言以蔽之。
Warrior man, that's what it is.
战士，就是这样。
Some people in America believe that a good Morani is strong, tough, and don't mess with him.
美国有些人认为，一个好的莫拉尼人是坚强的、坚强的，不要惹他。
Other people believe that a good Morani is sensitive and sweet and kind.
其他人认为，一个好的莫拉尼人是敏感、可爱、善良的。
I said, "What do you guys think?
我说：“你们觉得怎么样？
What makes a good Morani?" And this is absolutely true, Andrew.
是什么造就了一个优秀的莫拉尼？”这绝对是真的，安德鲁。
This little guy, must have been 300 years old, and had about four foot two, sticks his finger out, and went from English to Swahili, to Maasai, to Swahili, to English.
这个小家伙一定有 300 岁了，身高大约四英尺二英寸，伸出手指，从英语转到斯瓦希里语，转到马赛语，转到斯瓦希里语，再转到英语。
And he sounded pissed.
而且他听起来很生气。
And he said, "I have no interest in talking to you about what makes a good Morani.
他说：“我没有兴趣和你谈论什么是优秀的莫拉尼人。
Couldn't care less.
一点也不在乎。
But I will talk to you about what makes a great Morani." He said, "Now listen, when the moment calls for fierceness, a good Morani is a killer." And they are.
但我会和你谈谈是什么造就了伟大的莫拉尼。”他说：“听着，当需要凶猛的时刻时，一个好的莫拉尼就是一个杀手。”他们确实如此。
They have swords and shields, and they're warriors.
他们有剑有盾，他们是战士。
They'll kill you.
他们会杀了你。
Don't cross them.
不要越过他们。
"When the moment calls for tenderness, a good Morani will lay down his sword and shield and be sweet like a baby.
“当需要温柔的时刻，一个好的莫拉尼会放下剑和盾，像婴儿一样甜蜜。
What makes a great Morani is knowing which moment is which." That's what I want.
伟大的莫拉尼的秘诀在于知道哪个时刻是哪个时刻。”这就是我想要的。
I want adaptability, flexibility, and wholeness.
我想要适应性、灵活性和完整性。
Strong, vulnerable, related, firm, all of our human qualities kicked out in the moment that calls for them with flexibility.
坚强、脆弱、相关、坚定，我们所有的人类品质都在需要灵活性的时刻被激发出来。
That's a man.
那是一个男人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's clear that within romantic relationship and other family-type relationships, that the softness, the kindness, but also what you referred to before as being skilled, not hard, not soft, skilled.
很明显，在浪漫关系和其他家庭类型的关系中，温柔、善良，还有你之前所说的熟练，不硬，不软，熟练。
That's what you're looking for in a point of friction.
这就是您要寻找的摩擦点。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Think be skilled.
认为要熟练。
Don't think be hard.
别以为很难。
Don't think be soft.
别以为心软。
Be skilled.
熟练一点。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
And it's in your interest to be skilled.
熟练掌握也符合您的利益。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
You're not giving in.
你不肯屈服。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
You're being smart.
你很聪明。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The warrior piece, here in the United States and other Western cultures, what's happening right now, it is kind of scary, right?
武士片，在美国和其他西方文化中，现在正在发生的事情，有点可怕，对吧？
People are very concerned, men are very concerned about how to make a living.
人们非常关心，男人非常关心如何谋生。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Probably to an extent that, at least in my lifetime, I've never observed.
可能在某种程度上，至少在我的一生中，我从未观察到过。
Because computers came along, and there was the whole obnoxious learn to code thing, but very quickly, people realized, okay, you don't have to be a computer programmer to still make a living.
因为计算机出现了，并且出现了整个令人讨厌的学习编码的事情，但很快，人们意识到，好吧，你不必成为一名计算机程序员来仍然谋生。
Factories have closed, but there are other things.
工厂已经关闭，但还有其他事情。
But that was a rough transition.
但这是一个艰难的转变。
We forget, right?
我们忘记了，对吧？
But now with AI, there's this feeling that it's like a tidal wave of work opportunity is going to be taken away from men.
但现在有了人工智能，人们感觉好像一波工作机会将从男性手中夺走。
So in the context of your story, is work the warrior piece-
所以在你的故事背景下，工作是战士的作品——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the United States?
在美国？
Okay.
好的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I would call it a place in the world.
我会把它称为世界上的一个地方。
I would call it purpose.
我称之为目的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what happens when there isn't work to do?
那么当没有工作可做时会发生什么呢？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I think that this is a big crisis for young men, younger men, millennial gentlemen, I don't even have all the alphabet.
我认为这对于年轻人、年轻人、千禧一代的绅士来说是一个很大的危机，我什至没有掌握所有的字母表。
They're nervous that there is no opening for them to step into the world and have a meaningful place.
他们担心没有机会进入这个世界并拥有一个有意义的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, for a long time, the discussion was about finding work that you really love as opposed to just doing something because you make a good living.
嗯，很长一段时间以来，讨论的焦点是找到你真正喜欢的工作，而不是仅仅为了过上好日子而做某事。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now I think the conversation actually is switching to, what can I do to just make a living?
现在我认为谈话实际上转向了，我能做什么来谋生？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I need to put bread on the table.
我需要把面包放在桌子上。
I'm floundering.
我正在挣扎。
And also, women are in the workforce.
而且，女性也加入了劳动力队伍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Men are feeling their position eroding, in part because of changing economic circumstances, but in part, back in the '40s and '50s, I slayed dragons, came home, and my wife met me with a martini and slippers.
男性感觉自己的地位正在受到侵蚀，部分原因是经济环境的变化，但部分原因是，早在 40 年代和 50 年代，我屠龙回家，我的妻子用马提尼酒和拖鞋迎接我。
Nowadays, I slay dragons, I come home, and my wife comes home from slaying dragons, too.
如今，我屠龙回家，我老婆也屠龙回家。
One of the nice things about young men is that they understand that it's going to be a two-career family, and they're more egalitarian than we were.
年轻人的好处之一是他们知道这将是一个双职工家庭，而且他们比我们更加平等。
I have to help.
我必须帮忙。
It's not fair for me to not help with the dishes.
不帮忙洗碗对我来说不公平。
She's as tired as I am, and her paycheck is as big as...
她和我一样累，而她的薪水和我一样多……
There was research, there's a direct correlation between how much housework a man does and how big his wife's paycheck is.
有研究表明，一个男人做多少家务和他妻子的工资有多少之间有直接的关系。
The bigger her paycheck, the more housework he does.
她的薪水越高，他做的家务就越多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
But that's not being whipped.
但这并不是被鞭打。
That's like Yeah.
就好像是啊。
She's tired, too.
她也累了。
We're a team.
我们是一个团队。
So there is some of that with men.
男人也有这样的情况。
On the other hand, this whipped up kind of hysteria about the crisis with men, boys are doing poorly in school, and boys aren't doing this, and boys...
另一方面，这激起了对男性危机的歇斯底里，男孩在学校表现不佳，男孩不这样做，男孩......
A lot of that is comparative.
其中很多都是比较性的。
Boys are doing worse than women.
男孩的表现比女人差。
Boys are not achieving the same grades as girls.
男孩的成绩与女孩不同。
And I haven't looked at this, but I'm wondering if some of this hyped-up, "Oh, what's going on with boys?" Boys aren't that much worse, it's that girls and women are doing so much better.
我还没看过这个，但我想知道是否有人大肆宣传，“哦，男孩们怎么了？”男孩并没有那么糟糕，而是女孩和女人做得更好。
And in comparison, it looks like we're standing still and being passed.
相比之下，我们似乎站在原地，被超越了。
That is the feeling.
就是这样的感觉。
There is a feeling in all aspects of privilege, white privilege, male privilege, "Look, these other people are getting let in, and they're going to eat my lunch, and I'm nervous about that."
在特权、白人特权、男性特权的各个方面都有一种感觉，“看，这些其他人被允许进来，他们要吃我的午餐，我对此感到紧张。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I observed in the '80s and '90s and 2000s, a lot of guys, mostly guys, become addicts.
我观察到，在 80 年代、90 年代和 2000 年代，很多男人，尤其是男人，都上瘾了。
And not all of them came from traumatic homes, not of the, whatever, the big T type trauma, at least not that I'm aware of.
并不是所有的人都来自有创伤的家庭，不是那种，无论如何，巨大的T型创伤，至少我不知道。
Some did.
有些人做到了。
Mostly it was absent fathers tended to kind of predict addiction or-
大多数情况下，缺席的父亲往往会预测成瘾或——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That is trauma
那就是外伤
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or addict dads.
或上瘾的爸爸。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That is trauma, Andrew.
那是创伤，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It is trauma, right.
这是创伤，对吧。
I was just sort of big T, little T.
我只是个大T，小T。
I'm not aware of any, then they could exist, I don't know.
我不知道任何，那么它们可能存在，我不知道。
Specific-
具体-
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
But I want to be clear about this because it's endemic to our culture.
但我想澄清这一点，因为它是我们文化中的特有现象。
Absent dads is the norm for many people in this culture.
对于这个文化中的许多人来说，父亲缺席是常态。
And absence can do more damage than violent presence can.
缺席比暴力存在造成的伤害更大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And we tend to not think about it that way.
我们往往不会这样思考。
But neglect can be as wounding.
但忽视也同样会造成伤害。
Back to Bly, he said this once.
回到布莱，他曾经说过这样的话。
He's a beautiful poet.
他是一位美丽的诗人。
He said, "Every time a young man walks down the corridor and says hello to an older, more successful man, and that man does not say hello back, that's a wound in the soul of the young man." I love that.
他说：“每次一个年轻人走过走廊，向一个年长、更成功的男人打招呼，而那个男人没有回声打招呼，这就是年轻人灵魂上的伤口。”我喜欢那个。
And absences speak as woundingly as violent presences do.
缺席和暴力存在一样伤人。
And many men, not being relational, are absent, and people suffer.
许多人因为没有关系而缺席，人们就受苦了。
The children suffer, and the partners suffer.
孩子受苦，伴侣也受苦。
And then I talk about the unholy triad of patriarchy.
然后我谈论邪恶的父权制三合会。
You've got absent or irresponsible dad, you've got unhappy but accommodating mom, and then you have a sweet, smart, sensitive little boy, and that boy feels his mother's pain.
你有一个缺席或不负责任的爸爸，你有一个不快乐但包容的妈妈，然后你有一个可爱、聪明、敏感的小男孩，那个男孩感受到了他母亲的痛苦。
She doesn't have to do anything to, quote, "enmesh him." He feels it, and he moves into caretaking her.
她不需要做任何事情来“让他陷入困境”。他感觉到了，并开始照顾她。
And then his template for relationship is, "I'm a caretaker.
然后他的关系模板是：“我是一个看护者。
It's not mutual." And then he has a very ambivalent relationship to being close to somebody because close means, "Nobody cares about me.
这不是相互的。”然后他对于与某人亲近有一种非常矛盾的关系，因为亲近意味着，“没有人关心我。
I'm taking care of them." That is endemic in our culture.
我正在照顾他们。”这是我们文化中的普遍现象。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very common.
很常见。
And I appreciate the, call it what it is, the redirect to this.
我很欣赏，不管它是什么，重定向到此。
I'll come back to the addiction piece, but what you're describing is everywhere.
我会回到成瘾部分，但你所描述的东西无处不在。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Everywhere.
无处不在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everywhere.
无处不在。
This is often why I get the text from the mom of a kid saying, "My kid, he's got these issues," right?
这就是为什么我经常收到孩子妈妈发来的短信，说：“我的孩子，他有这些问题，”对吧？
And we talked about them.
我们谈论了它们。
It's the phenotype you're describing.
这就是你所描述的表型。
It's the scenario you're describing.
这就是你所描述的场景。
There was a message in the early '90s that I think was very toxic, frankly.
坦率地说，我认为 90 年代初有一条信息非常有毒。
I'll take some heat for this because it's politically leaning, but I'm going to be very clear on my politics.
我会为此承受一些压力，因为它有政治倾向，但我会非常清楚我的政治观点。
I don't like political groups.
我不喜欢政治团体。
I don't like groups that relate to politics.
我不喜欢与政治有关的团体。
Frankly, I just don't like them.
坦白说，我只是不喜欢他们。
I'm sometimes a double hater.
我有时是个双重仇恨者。
There are certain things through the middle and both sides.
中间和两边都有一些东西。
Yes, yes, no, no, definitely no, definitely no. Okay.
是的，是的，不，不，绝对不，绝对不。好的。
That's me.
这就是我。
I'll just put it out on the table.
我就把它放在桌子上。
In the '90s, there were two messages that came about during the Clinton administration.
上世纪九十年代，克林顿政府期间发出了两条信息。
One was very useful, one was highly toxic, in my opinion.
在我看来，一种非常有用，一种有毒。
The first one that was very useful was Hillary Clinton took data from-- Was talking about data from my colleague Karla Shatz at Stanford, who talked about, "Fire together, wire together." She said that, not Donald-
第一个非常有用的数据是希拉里·克林顿 (Hillary Clinton) 获取的数据，当时正在谈论我在斯坦福大学的同事卡拉·沙茨 (Karla Shatz) 的数据，她谈到了“一起开火，一起接线”。她说的是，不是唐纳德——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Hebb.
赫布。
For the record, she said that, not Donald Hebb.
郑重声明，这句话是她说的，而不是唐纳德·赫布。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it had to do with brain plasticity, and they talked about this first six years.
这与大脑的可塑性有关，他们谈到了头六年。
Okay?
好的？
Like Hillary Clinton or hater, the first six years is a real thing, and it attuned parents to the idea that the first six years of life are not the only important part of life, but there's a lot of brain plasticity happening there.
就像希拉里·克林顿或仇恨者一样，头六年是真实的事情，它让父母们认识到生命的头六年并不是生命中唯一重要的部分，但那里发生了很多大脑可塑性。
And she talked to the right scientist, Karla, my colleague and friend, phenomenal neuroscientist, about the fact that playing your kid classical music isn't going to help.
她与合适的科学家卡拉（Karla）进行了交谈，卡拉是我的同事和朋友，也是一位杰出的神经科学家，她谈到了给孩子播放古典音乐并没有帮助的事实。
What they need is a certain amount of nurturing and stuff to really wire those circuits up.
他们需要的是一定程度的培养和东西来真正连接这些电路。
And then certain windows close, and you can go back and do the work, but those first six years are absolutely critical.
然后某些窗口关闭，你可以回去做工作，但前六年绝对至关重要。
It should've been the first 50 years, but six was good.
本来应该是前 50 年，但 6 年也不错了。
That was a great message.
这是一个很棒的信息。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One that still, I think, carries forward today, and we should acknowledge that.
我认为，这一点至今仍在发扬光大，我们应该承认这一点。
The other message, and it was the Bill Clinton story, was because he had a single mom and at least by Democrats, he was highly revered, was this idea, and you can find this online, that as long as there's one person that-
另一个信息，那就是比尔·克林顿的故事，是因为他有一个单亲妈妈，而且至少受到民主党人的高度尊敬，就是这个想法，你可以在网上找到这个，只要有一个人——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Ah
啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
cares about you, that you're going to be just fine.
关心你，你会没事的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I understand that it had benevolent motives.
我知道它有仁慈的动机。
It was like, look, if you have no one, clearly you're screwed, or life's going to be much, much harder.
就像，看，如果你没有人，显然你就完蛋了，或者生活会变得更加艰难。
If you have multiple people that care about you and are nurturing you as a young person becoming a young adult, et cetera, even better.
如果你有很多人关心你，并在你从一个年轻人到一个年轻人的过程中培养你，等等，那就更好了。
But the notion was that if you just had one person, you're good.
但我们的想法是，如果你只有一个人，那就很好。
And I think that seeded this idea that, sure, sometimes divorce saves families, sometimes it destroys families.
我认为这播下了这样的想法：当然，离婚有时可以拯救家庭，有时会摧毁家庭。
There's all sorts of ideas.
有各种各样的想法。
But that idea, I think, was highly toxic because it runs countercurrent to everything we understand about what it takes to be nurtured properly.
但我认为，这个想法具有很强的毒性，因为它与我们所理解的如何正确培养的一切背道而驰。
Doesn't mean you need two parents, as you pointed out.
正如您所指出的，并不意味着您需要两个父母。
You can get nurturing from men or from women, et cetera.
你可以从男人或女人那里得到养育，等等。
But this idea that you just need one person who cares about you, that's what you just described.
但你只需要一个关心你的人，这就是你刚才所描述的。
It's the mom who cares about the kid, the kid who sees the mom's pain, the absent dad.
关心孩子的妈妈，看到妈妈痛苦的孩子，缺席的爸爸。
Sometimes it's the reverse.
有时情况恰恰相反。
Usually, it's the scenario you described.
通常，这就是您所描述的场景。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I've just seen thousands of examples where that leads to very bad things.
我刚刚看到了数以千计的例子，这些例子导致了非常糟糕的事情。
There should have been an ellipse on that that said, in the case where it's just one person or parent, there need to be other people to fill the roles that person can't fill.
上面应该有一个省略号，表示在只有一个人或父母的情况下，需要有其他人来填补该人无法填补的角色。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes, of course.
是的，当然。
And there's also a difference between, "I'm a single mom raising my son." We'll keep it to boys.
“我是一个抚养我儿子的单亲妈妈”之间也有区别。我们会把它留给男孩。
So I have a community of people around that boy to love him, and it's not all me.
所以我周围有一群爱他的人，但不全是我。
That doesn't necessarily mean I need a surrogate father to bring him in to teach him how to be a man.
这并不一定意味着我需要一个代理父亲来带他来教他如何做一个男人。
Anybody in the community, this is good, but not just one person.
社区中的任何人，这都很好，但不仅仅是一个人。
Agreed.
同意。
The other thing I want to say is there's a difference between, "I'm being raised by a single parent," and, "I'm being raised by two parents, one of whom doesn't pay any attention to me." There's a difference between somebody who's really gone and someone who's physically there and emotionally gone.
我想说的另一件事是，“我是由单亲抚养长大的”和“我是由两个父母抚养长大的，其中一个父母不关心我”之间是有区别的。真正离开的人与身体还存在但情感上已经离开的人之间是有区别的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And that is a wound.
那是一个伤口。
And unfortunately, because so many men are so unrelational, we're going to change that.
不幸的是，因为很多男人都缺乏关系，我们要改变这一点。
That's what you get.
这就是你得到的。
And if Dad is distant from me, Dad's also distant from Mom, and Mom is brokenhearted.
如果爸爸远离我，爸爸也会远离妈妈，妈妈也会伤心。
And traditionally, Mom's brokenhearted and not doing much about it, just resenting it and suffering it, downloading a lot of that feeling to me, whether she means to or not.
传统上，妈妈心碎了，并没有做太多事情，只是怨恨它并忍受它，将很多这种感觉下载给我，无论她是否有意。
I just pick it up.
我只是把它捡起来。
And then I move into some skewed relationship where I'm parenting her instead of being parented by her.
然后我进入了某种扭曲的关系，我养育她而不是被她养育。
She doesn't have to do a thing.
她什么都不用做。
She can be the world's greatest mom explicitly, but I'm feeling her distress and stepping in to that.
毫无疑问，她可以成为世界上最伟大的妈妈，但我感受到了她的痛苦，并介入其中。
And then I have a hard time with relationships as an adult man.
作为一个成年男人，我在处理人际关系方面遇到了困难。
We call this being a love avoidant.
我们称之为爱情回避者。
It's like my template for relationships is I'm caretaking you.
这就像我的人际关系模板是我照顾你。
You don't really care about me.
你其实并不关心我。
So I'll be in the relationship, but I don't want to get swallowed up by you.
所以我会继续这段关系，但我不想被你吞噬。
So I'll be in the relationship, but I'll also be very distant.
所以我会维持这段关系，但也会保持很远的距离。
In that way, the distance gets replicated generation by generation by generation.
就这样，距离一代又一代地复制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Waking Up.
我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一“醒来”。
Waking Up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more.
Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，提供数百个引导冥想计划、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。
I started practicing meditation when I was about 15 years old, and it made a profound impact on my life.
我大约15岁的时候开始练习冥想，它对我的生活产生了深远的影响。
And by now, there are thousands of quality peer-reviewed studies that emphasize how useful mindfulness meditation can be for improving our focus, managing stress and anxiety, improving our mood, and much more.
到目前为止，已有数以千计的高质量同行评审研究强调正念冥想对于提高我们的注意力、管理压力和焦虑、改善我们的情绪等等有多么有用。
In recent years, I started using the Waking Up app for my meditations because I find it to be a terrific resource for allowing me to really be consistent with my meditation practice.
近年来，我开始使用“Waking Up”应用程序进行冥想，因为我发现它是一个很棒的资源，可以让我真正坚持我的冥想练习。
Many people start a meditation practice and experience some benefits.
许多人开始冥想练习并体验到一些好处。
But many people also have challenges keeping up with that practice.
但许多人在坚持这种做法方面也面临着挑战。
What I and so many other people love about the Waking Up app is that it has a lot of different meditations to choose from, and those meditations are of different durations.
我和许多其他人喜欢“醒来”应用程序的原因是它有很多不同的冥想可供选择，而且这些冥想的持续时间也不同。
So it makes it very easy to keep up with your meditation practice, both from the perspective of novelty, you never get tired of those meditations.
所以它让你很容易跟上你的冥想练习，无论是从新奇的角度来看，你永远不会厌倦这些冥想。
There's always something new to explore and to learn about yourself and about the effectiveness of meditation.
总有一些新的东西值得探索和了解你自己以及冥想的有效性。
And you can always fit meditation into your schedule, even if you only have two or three minutes per day in which to meditate.
即使您每天只有两到三分钟的时间进行冥想，您也可以随时将冥想纳入您的日程安排中。
If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, please go to wakingup.com/huberman, where you can access a free 30-day trial.
如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，请访问 wakingup.com/huberman，在这里您可以免费试用 30 天。
Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman to access a free 30-day trial.
同样，访问 wakingup.com/huberman 即可获得 30 天免费试用。
I think I know the answer to the question I'm about to ask, but I'll ask it anyway.
我想我知道我要问的问题的答案，但无论如何我都会问。
In your experience, are women just better at being relational than men?
根据您的经验，女性是否比男性更擅长建立关系？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
They're better.
他们更好。
They ain't no angels.
他们不是天使。
Women have to learn a few things, too.
女性也必须学习一些东西。
They have to learn to be subjective.
他们必须学会主观。
It's really tempting because I do know more about relationships than my guy to start feeling like I'm his coach.
这真的很诱人，因为我确实比我的家伙更了解人际关系，开始感觉我是他的教练。
I'm going to teach him what he needs to do.
我会教他他需要做什么。
That's an arrogant position.
这是一个傲慢的立场。
That's a grandiose position.
这是一个崇高的地位。
Stay humble.
保持谦虚。
I can teach you what I need.
我可以教你我需要的东西。
I'm not your relational coach.
我不是你的关系教练。
That's a trap.
那是一个陷阱。
Women have to learn how to speak relationally also.
女性还必须学习如何与人交往。
So story, I love to tell a story.
所以故事，我喜欢讲故事。
This is a true story.
这是一个真实的故事。
And this is the example I give about stepping out of our usual cultural framework and learning how to think relationally.
这就是我给出的关于走出我们通常的文化框架并学习如何进行关系性思考的例子。
How many of people listening can relate to this one?
有多少人在听时能体会到这一点？
She to him, "You're a reckless driver." Him to her, "You're overly nervous." How many of us have sat through that one?
她对他说：“你是个鲁莽的司机。”他对她说：“你太紧张了。”我们中有多少人经历过这一过程？
And they get into what I call an objectivity battle.
他们陷入了我所说的客观性之争。
You marshal your evidence.
你整理你的证据。
You argue your case.
你争论你的情况。
"Well, you do this, you do that.
“嗯，你做这个，你做那个。
You're reckless." "Well, you're overly nervous about this.
你真是鲁莽。” “好吧，你太紧张了。
Harry thinks you're nervous, too." It's what I call an objectivity battle.
哈利认为你也很紧张。”这就是我所说的客观性之战。
It can go on literally for decades.
它实际上可以持续几十年。
This is absolutely true, Andrew.
这绝对是真的，安德鲁。
One session with me.
和我一起上一堂课。
Her to him "Honey, I know you love me." Let's start with that.
她对他说：“亲爱的，我知道你爱我。”让我们从那开始吧。
Hold the phone there.
把电话放在那里。
Change the energy.
改变能量。
Remember the biosphere.
记住生物圈。
Remember that we're a team.
请记住，我们是一个团队。
I know you love me.
我知道你爱我。
When you drive on your own, I worry about you, but it's your life.
当你独自开车时，我会担心你，但这是你的生活。
Do what you do.
做你该做的事。
When I'm in the car with you and you're tailgating and speeding and changing lanes, I don't know, maybe I'm nervous.
当我和你一起在车里，你追尾、超速、变道时，我不知道，也许我很紧张。
She takes the whole objectivity battle off the table.
她把整个客观性之争排除在外。
Maybe I am overthinking.
也许是我想多了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But nevertheless, when I'm sitting next to you and you're driving, I get crazy.
但尽管如此，当我坐在你旁边而你在开车时，我就会发疯。
I'm scared.
我很害怕。
You love me.
你爱我。
You don't really want me to be this scared out of my mind every time I'm sitting next to you when we're driving.
你不会真的希望我每次开车坐在你旁边时都这么害怕。
As a favor to me, when I'm in the car, could you please slow down and drive more conservatively so I don't have to be so nervous?
请帮我一个忙，当我在车上时，请您放慢速度，保守一点，这样我就不用那么紧张了？
True story, Andrew.
真实的故事，安德鲁。
Him to her.
他对她。
"Sure, honey." And he did.
“当然，亲爱的。”他做到了。
And what might've been a fight that lasted 40 years was done in 15 minutes.
一场可能持续 40 年的战斗在 15 分钟内就结束了。
Why?
为什么？
Not objective, "You're a reckless driver." Subjective, "I get nervous." The beauty about speaking subjectively is nobody can argue with you.
不客观，“你是一个鲁莽的司机。”主观上，“我感到紧张。”主观说话的美妙之处在于没有人可以与你争论。
"Well, you shouldn't get nervous." I know, but I do.
“嗯，你不用紧张。”我知道，但我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's nice it also started with, "I know you love me."
很高兴它也以“我知道你爱我”开头。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I know you love me.
我知道你爱我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what a nice thing to hear right before a request.
在提出请求之前听到这是多么好的事情啊。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I know you love me.
我知道你爱我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Assuming it's true.
假设这是真的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Well, of course.
嗯，当然。
And also a request, not a complaint.
而且也是一个请求，而不是抱怨。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I know you love me.
我知道你爱我。
This is what's happening to me.
这就是发生在我身上的事情。
We're a team.
我们是一个团队。
As a favor to me, would you please?
作为我的一个恩惠，你愿意吗？
Humble, subjective, negotiating.
谦虚，主观，谈判。
Not, "I'm God's gift.
不是，“我是上帝的礼物。
I know how to drive.
我知道怎么开车。
You're an idiot." Take all that energy away.
你是个白痴。”把所有的能量都带走。
And then, "Right, I do love you.
然后，“好吧，我确实爱你。
Right, you do get nervous.
没错，你确实会紧张。
You're a fool for getting nervous, but you get nervous.
你是个傻瓜，会紧张，但你还是会紧张。
You're my wife.
你是我的妻子。
Sure, I'll do this for you." And I use this as an example of learning to speak relationally.
当然，我会为你做这件事。”我用这个作为学习关系式说话的例子。
It's not about who's right and who-- I say the relational answer to who's right and who's wrong is who cares?
这不是关于谁对谁错的问题——我说谁是对谁错的关系答案是谁在乎？
How are we as a team going to make this work?
我们作为一个团队将如何完成这项工作？
And that's a whole new world.
那是一个全新的世界。
Are women better at this than men?
女性在这方面比男性更擅长吗？
Not a lot.
不是很多。
They're better at a lot of other things than men, but I have to teach women how to be more relational, too.
她们在很多其他事情上都比男性更擅长，但我也必须教女性如何建立更亲密的关系。
Women are more relational than men, but they need to learn a few skills as well.
女性比男性更具关系性，但她们也需要学习一些技能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about addiction or compulsion.
让我们谈谈成瘾或强迫。
We could have a two-hour discussion about where the line is, but-
我们可以就界线在哪里进行两个小时的讨论，但是——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I have a one-sentence-
我有一句话——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
thing to say about addiction.
关于成瘾有话要说。
What we self-medicate when we self-medicate is the pain of disconnection, and the cure for addiction is intimacy.
当我们自我治疗时，我们自我治疗的是断绝联系的痛苦，而治疗成瘾的方法是亲密。
I'm a big 12-step fan.
我是 12 步的忠实粉丝。
I know you are, too.
我知道你也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
One of my great mentors was P.M.
我的一位伟大导师是 P.M.
Melody.
旋律。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
A great light in 12-step.
12 步的大光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wrote the book about codependency.
写了一本关于相互依赖的书。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
And I'm saturated with 12-step and 12-step wisdom.
我充满了12步和12步智慧。
There are things you can do to get sober.
您可以采取一些措施来保持清醒。
Intimacy will keep you sober.
亲密会让你保持清醒。
And I believe that what the pain-- Yes, trauma, but trauma is disconnection, too.
我相信痛苦是什么——是的，创伤，但创伤也是断开连接。
All trauma is, is the lack of relationality in whenever it happened.
所有的创伤都是，无论何时发生，都缺乏关联性。
What we find intolerable is how lonely we are, and we turn to what I call a misery stabilizer to make our loneliness tolerable to ourselves, but it just makes it-- I said in my first book, "I Don't Want to Talk About It," taking a substance for loneliness is like drinking saltwater for thirst.
我们发现无法忍受的是我们有多么孤独，我们求助于我所说的痛苦稳定剂，让我们自己能够忍受孤独，但它只是让孤独变得可以忍受——我在我的第一本书《我不想谈论它》中说过，服用一种物质来缓解孤独就像喝盐水解渴一样。
It makes you worse than you started.
它会让你比开始时更糟。
But that's what we do.
但这就是我们所做的。
So when I treat addictions, there are levels.
所以当我治疗成瘾时，是有层次的。
Level A, the addiction itself.
A级，成瘾本身。
I'm a big fan of 12-step.
我是 12 步的忠实粉丝。
Get sober.
保持清醒。
Level B, let's look at the immaturities of your personality that you have to sort out.
B级，让我们看看你性格中哪些不成熟的地方需要你去梳理。
Level C, let's look at the early trauma that may be at the root of this.
C级，让我们看看可能是其根源的早期创伤。
Let's deal with all three of those.
让我们来处理这三个问题。
And it's all wrapped in the circle of learning how to be connected and relational.
这一切都包含在学习如何建立联系和建立关系的循环中。
That's the ouch that you're trying to get out of, and let's restore that.
这就是你想要摆脱的痛苦，让我们恢复它。
And that's all of that work.
这就是所有的工作。
Trauma work, you have to make a connection with that little boy or girl that was so hurt.
创伤工作，你必须与那个受到如此伤害的小男孩或女孩建立联系。
Personality work, you have to learn how to be mature.
人格工作，你要学会如何成熟。
Work on your grandiosity or self-medication.
努力发挥你的自大或自我治疗。
Do that, per se.
就这样做吧。
And then as you do all of those layers, the king of recovery is learning how to be connected to yourself, first and foremost, and to the people around you.
然后，当您完成所有这些层时，恢复之王就是学习如何与自己建立联系，首先也是最重要的是与周围的人建立联系。
That's the cure for addiction.
这就是治疗毒瘾的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The 12-step piece is interesting as it relates to the relational piece, too, because for people who've never been to a meeting, maybe just put a little bit of contour on it.
12 步部分很有趣，因为它也与关系部分相关，因为对于从未参加过会议的人来说，也许只需在其上添加一点轮廓即可。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
12-step meetings are fellowship.
12步会议就是团契。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, it's fellowship, and it's also a place where you, at a very basic level, learn to listen and to be quiet.
是的，这是团契，也是一个让你在最基本的层面上学会倾听和保持安静的地方。
And I'll just mention this because I think a lot of people hear 12-step, they have different ideas about it.
我只是提一下这一点，因为我认为很多人都听说过 12 步，他们对此有不同的想法。
But if anyone's ever curious about it, it's a very welcoming community.
但如果有人对此感到好奇，这是一个非常热情的社区。
Even non-addicts can go to what are called open AA meetings.
即使是不上瘾的人也可以参加所谓的公开 AA 会议。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And even though there are lots of different divisions of 12-step, AA has been around the longest, and those meetings tend to have the most structure and-
尽管 12 步有很多不同的划分，但 AA 存在时间最长，而且这些会议往往具有最多的结构和——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Agreed
同意
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and so if you ever want to see what 12-step is about, it's ...
因此，如果您想了解 12 步的含义，那就...
perfectly welcome.
非常欢迎。
It's encouraged, in fact, to go to, you can look it up online, they're in person or online, and you can go to a, it has to be an open 12-step meeting.
事实上，我们鼓励去参加，你可以在网上查找，他们亲自或在网上，你可以参加一个，它必须是一个开放的 12 步骤会议。
Check to see if it's men only or women only or mixed.
检查一下是否只有男性、女性或混合。
And you can go, and the format, very briefly, is someone will read something out, and then people will go around the room and typically, so people will say their name, and they'll say they're an alcoholic or an addict, because sometimes it's mixed addiction.
你可以去，格式很简单，就是有人会读出一些东西，然后人们会在房间里走来走去，通常，人们会说出他们的名字，他们会说他们是一个酒鬼或瘾君子，因为有时这是混合成瘾。
And if people are there just to observe, they'll just say, it's always first names only, will say, "I'm so-and-so, and I'm just here to learn." And it goes right past you.
如果人们只是在那里观察，他们只会说，总是只称呼名字，会说，“我是某某，我只是来这里学习的。”它就从你身边经过。
So if you think that the microscope's going to be on you-
所以如果你认为显微镜会在你身上——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then typically somebody who's had a lot of time sober will speak for anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes, sometimes a little longer.
通常，一个长时间保持清醒的人会讲 5 到 15 分钟，有时甚至更长一点。
And then there'll be a kind of round robin where people can or cannot, they can elect to share for one to three minutes.
然后会有一种循环赛，人们可以或不能，他们可以选择分享一到三分钟。
And then there's some discussion about the traditions.
然后还有一些关于传统的讨论。
And the reason I think it's so powerful for a number of reasons, helped so many people get sober, it costs nothing, it's all over the world every day and all night and online and in person.
我认为它之所以如此强大，有很多原因，它帮助了这么多人戒酒，它不需要任何成本，它每天整夜都在世界各地，无论是在线还是面对面。
But I think that at a minimum, it teaches you to just listen.
但我认为至少，它教会你倾听。
If you want to share, you can share.
如果你想分享，你可以分享。
And what it also teaches you, and this is kind of a more subtle layer, but it's a really important layer, someone said to me just yesterday, even if you don't think that you need to go to a meeting, if you've had some time sober and you go and you share, or even if you're struggling and you go, almost certainly there's someone there that's benefiting from what you're saying.
它也教给你什么，这是一个更微妙的层面，但这是一个非常重要的层面，昨天有人对我说，即使你认为你不需要去参加会议，如果你有一段时间清醒，你去分享，或者即使你在挣扎，你去，几乎肯定有人会从你所说的中受益。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You may never know it, but that's part of the fellowship service piece-
你可能永远不知道，但这是团契服务的一部分——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is it's sometimes people will come up and say, "Hey, what you said really resonated." Always what other people share, there's a grain or more of relational stuff there.
有时人们会过来说：“嘿，你说的确实引起了共鸣。”在其他人分享的内容中，总会有一些或更多的相关内容。
So it's a very interesting form of relating.
所以这是一种非常有趣的联系形式。
It's not unlike the way Quakers get together.
这与贵格会的聚会方式没有什么不同。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we'll just sit, and then sometimes someone will speak.
我们就坐下来，然后有时有人会说话。
It's different, but anyway, I think that we want to pull back the veil a little bit on what happens at these meetings.
这是不同的，但无论如何，我认为我们想稍微揭开这些会议上发生的事情的面纱。
And you'll also be very surprised.
你也会感到非常惊讶。
Sometimes people are really dejected and in a real-life crisis.
有时人们真的很沮丧，处于现实生活的危机中。
More often than not, you walk in and you're like, "Wow, these people are very empowered."
通常，当你走进去时，你会想，“哇，这些人非常有权力。”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because they're there, and they've been going.
因为他们就在那里，而且一直在走。
It's not like this dungeon of a place.
这不像这个地方的地牢。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a cheerfulness to it, often.
常常有一种快乐的感觉。
Not always, but there's a cheerfulness to it.
并不总是如此，但其中有一种快乐。
And so anyway, I encourage anyone that's curious about it, if they think they're an addict, but also if they also just want to become more relational.
所以无论如何，我鼓励任何对此感到好奇的人，如果他们认为自己是一个瘾君子，但如果他们也只是想变得更加亲密。
These open AA meetings are a real gift.
这些公开的 AA 会议是一份真正的礼物。
Again, zero cost.
再次，零成本。
They pass the hat, but nobody cares if you donate or not.
他们传递了帽子，但没人关心你是否捐款。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And you don't have to talk.
而且你不必说话。
You can just go and be.
你可以随心而行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
My dear Pia, we've been talking about relationship.
我亲爱的皮亚，我们一直在谈论关系。
Pia said intimacy, which is healing and spiritual, is the conjunction of truth and love, the meeting of truth and love.
皮亚说，亲密是治愈性的、精神性的，是真理与爱的结合，是真理与爱的相遇。
And she said 12-step meetings were her model for that.
她说 12 步会议是她的模式。
And I'll tell you two stories.
我会告诉你两个故事。
My friend Alan used to go to Al-Anon.
我的朋友艾伦曾经去过 Al-Anon。
I said, "Why do you go to Al-Anon?" He said, "Well, I had a great grandfather, but you got Noah." Said, "You know what?
我说：“你为什么去艾安农？”他说：“好吧，我有一位曾祖父，但你有诺亚。”说：“你知道吗？
Every other week, Friday night, I go to an Al-Anon meeting, and people will say things that are absolutely horrible, and not one person will lift a finger to make it better.
每隔一周，周五晚上，我都会去参加 Al-Anon 会议，人们会说一些绝对可怕的话，但没有人会举手之劳让情况变得更好。
We'll just be with each other."
我们只会和彼此在一起。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
"And I find that spiritually refreshing." And I remember being in a men's group that after a conference, I created a little a 12-step men's group, and I was sitting next to an older guy, and he looked at us, I'll remember this forever, and he said, "I've never been intimate with anybody in my life, and I expect I'll die alone." And not one of us either pulled away from him or tried to make it better for him.
“我发现这在精神上令人耳目一新。”我记得在一个男子团体中，一次会议结束后，我创建了一个小型的 12 步男子团体，我坐在一个年长的家伙旁边，他看着我们，我会永远记住这一点，他说，“我一生中从未与任何人亲密过，我希望我会孤独地死去。”我们中没有人离开他或试图让他过得更好。
We were just with him.
我们只是和他在一起。
That is intimate.
那是亲密的。
And 12-step has a lot of wisdom that goes beyond our general culture.
12步有很多超越我们一般文化的智慧。
It's not perfect, but it's a step up from the mores of our culture.
它并不完美，但它是我们文化习俗的一个进步。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's definitely not perfect.
这绝对不完美。
There are meetings that people don't resonate with, and occasionally you'll go to a meeting, and you can tell the storytelling can get a little bit, people getting a little high on other people's stories about getting high.
有些会议人们不会产生共鸣，偶尔你去参加一个会议，你可以看出讲故事可以有点，人们因为别人的故事而变得有点兴奋。
But a good meeting, which is 98% of meetings, the person leading the meeting will keep things in check.
但好的会议，98%的会议，主持会议的人都会把事情控制住。
And gosh, there's so much wisdom there.
天哪，里面有这么多的智慧。
And I think especially in this time where people are struggling more than ever to make connection, and online is clearly a very different form of connection or even leads to disconnection.
我认为，尤其是在这个时代，人们比以往任何时候都更加努力地建立联系，而在线显然是一种非常不同的联系形式，甚至会导致断开连接。
The in-person meetings have a real value to them.
面对面的会议对他们来说具有真正的价值。
And of course, I also believe that many people are dealing with addiction now, and they don't realize it.
当然，我也相信现在很多人都在应对毒瘾，但他们并没有意识到这一点。
The numbing out or the rage-baiting that you can experience watching what is essentially 300 little short movies in the course of 20, 30 minutes, when you could just think about what's actually going on internally around you.
在 20、30 分钟内观看 300 部小短片时，你会体验到麻木或愤怒的感觉，此时你可以思考你周围实际发生的事情。
I mean, it's-
我的意思是，这是——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Well, or look at porn.
好吧，或者看看色情片。
Our young men, my wife Belinda is a certified sex addiction therapist, and a boy, by the time he's 12 or 13, has seen thousands of vaginas, has seen thousands of sex scenes.
我们的年轻男子，我的妻子贝琳达是一名经过认证的性成瘾治疗师，而一个男孩在 12 岁或 13 岁的时候，已经看过数千个阴道，看过数千个性爱场景。
That's average for America right now.
这是目前美国的平均水平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's so crazy.
太疯狂了。
Yeah, when I was growing up, it was so different.
是的，当我长大的时候，情况是如此不同。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
So one of the things I say is that, we talked about this earlier, it's the difference between gratification and relational joy.
所以我要说的一件事是，我们之前讨论过这一点，这是满足感和关系快乐之间的区别。
And a lot of us substitute intensity for intimacy.
我们很多人都用强度来代替亲密。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And boy, the internet That's what they sell.
天啊，互联网就是他们卖的东西。
That's the algorithm.
这就是算法。
And intensity itself becomes like a drug, and it makes us feel alive, and it's gratifying, and it pulls us out of whatever depression we're feeling, but it's very short-lived.
强度本身就像一种药物，它让我们感到活着，令人满足，它把我们从我们所感受到的抑郁中拉出来，但它是非常短暂的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's an example of intensity that comes to mind whenever we're talking about boys and men and addiction, but also just languishing and just the idea that people can course-correct, but it's hard when people have been in a current of numbing out or going for intensity.
每当我们谈论男孩、男人和成瘾时，我们都会想到一个强度的例子，但也只是萎靡不振，只是人们可以纠正路线的想法，但当人们处于麻木或追求强度的状态时，这很难。
And here I am drinking yerba mate.
我在这里喝马黛茶。
I love caffeine.
我喜欢咖啡因。
But I see it at every level because of, I'm about to slam on energy drinks for a second.
但我在各个层面都看到了它，因为我即将猛烈地喝能量饮料一秒钟。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Ha.
哈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But just the idea that you're trying to pack more and more intensity into less and less space.
但这只是你试图将越来越多的强度塞进越来越小的空间的想法。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That was one of the things I was nervous about coming on this podcast with you.
这是我和你一起参加这个播客时感到紧张的事情之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That we're all slamming energy drinks and-
我们都在猛烈抨击能量饮料并且-
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
No, no, not that, but this idea of optimizing every experience and having-
不，不，不是那个，而是优化每一次体验并拥有-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's a misconception, unfortunately, about this podcast.
是的，不幸的是，这是对这个播客的误解。
I think maybe we used the word "optimize" early on without explaining that optimization is really about making the best of each day.
我想也许我们很早就使用了“优化”这个词，但没有解释优化实际上是为了充分利用每一天。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
So, but that includes sit still.
所以，但这包括静坐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Totally.
完全可以。
I started today with 10 minutes of meditation.
我从今天开始进行 10 分钟的冥想。
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Unfortunately, this podcast for some people, they think about supplements, optimization, working out, and morning sunlight.
不幸的是，这个播客对于一些人来说，他们想到的是补充、优化、锻炼和早晨的阳光。
Morning sunlight thing's pretty important, especially on overcast days, but for everyone.
早晨的阳光非常重要，尤其是在阴天，但对每个人来说。
We are circadian creatures.
我们是昼夜节律生物。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I'll go for that.
我会去做的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You want to get mentally ill, you can help yourself be mildly or severely mentally depressed or ill.
如果您想患上精神疾病，您可以帮助自己患上轻度或严重的精神抑郁或疾病。
You can damage your relationships by being in dim or dark environments in the early hours of the day.
清晨处于昏暗或黑暗的环境中可能会损害您的人际关系。
There's so much data, right?
有这么多数据，对吧？
Bright days, dark nights.
明亮的白天，黑暗的夜晚。
That's the idea.
就是这个想法。
But that's the healthy approach.
但这是健康的方法。
But no, this podcast was always about psychology and biology and understanding some mechanism and practical tools.
但不，这个播客总是关于心理学和生物学以及了解一些机制和实用工具。
And the optimization thing is, I do think taking a healthy stock of oneself and saying some people need to move more.
最优化的是，我确实认为对自己有一个健康的认识，并说有些人需要更多的运动。
Some people need to move less and read more, frankly.
坦率地说，有些人需要少走动，多读书。
I know some really fit people that are getting dumb.
我知道有些非常适合的人却变得愚蠢了。
They'll tell you everything about sets and reps, but I'm like, "Listen, you got four PhDs." These aren't the exercise physiologists I'm referring to.
他们会告诉你有关组数和次数的所有信息，但我会说，“听着，你有四个博士学位。”我指的不是运动生理学家。
But you got four PhDs in kettlebells and nutrition that you've given yourself through YouTube.
但您通过 YouTube 获得了壶铃和营养学方面的四个博士学位。
Read a hard book, read a fiction book, read a kid's book, for God's sake.
看在上帝的份上，读一本硬书，读一本小说，读一本儿童读物。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You got to balance yourself out.
你必须平衡自己。
So I do believe in that.
所以我确实相信这一点。
But I think when it comes to the relational piece, the reason I keep coming back to 12-step is I think it's just a beautiful template for how to listen.
但我认为，当谈到关系性的部分时，我不断回到 12 步骤的原因是我认为它只是一个关于如何倾听的漂亮模板。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
How to listen and be.
如何倾听和成为。
A friend of mine brought a book.
我的一个朋友带来了一本书。
I didn't read the book, but the title's just hilarious.
我没看过这本书，但书名很搞笑。
The title of the book is "Death: The End of Self-Improvement." And it's like-
书名是《死亡：自我完善的终结》。这就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fair
公平
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
...
...
you know what?
你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who knows what happens next?
谁知道接下来会发生什么？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Sit down, have a cup of tea, and look at the trees.
坐下来，喝杯茶，看看树木。
As a family therapist, I love hanging out.
作为一名家庭治疗师，我喜欢闲逛。
Families operate in the interstices.
家庭在缝隙中运作。
I hate quality time.
我讨厌美好的时光。
I hate it.
我恨它。
It's a yuppie invention.
这是雅皮士的发明。
I can work 80 hours, but then I'll sit at a table with my kid and really stare at them and really give them attention.
我可以工作 80 个小时，但之后我会和我的孩子坐在一张桌子旁，认真地盯着他们，真正地关注他们。
No. Families operate, you want your kid to talk to you, they're in the backseat while you're driving them to hockey practice.
不。家庭运作，你希望你的孩子和你说话，当你开车送他们去曲棍球训练时，他们坐在后座。
Then they'll open up and talk to you.
然后他们就会敞开心扉和你交谈。
You're cooking together, and all of a sudden, they start burbling.
你们正在一起做饭，突然间，它们开始发出咕噜声。
You don't focus the laser beam of your attention on them.
你不会将注意力集中在他们身上。
They'll clam up.
他们会闭嘴。
One of the things that families can teach us about relationality, relational joy, is hanging out, being.
家庭可以教给我们关于关系、关系快乐的一件事就是出去玩、存在。
It doesn't have to be so focused.
没必要那么专注。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Be a little less perfect and be a little more human, and just let yourself be nurtured in different modes than the ones we're used to.
少一点完美，多一点人性，让自己以不同于我们习惯的方式被培养。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
My parents split when I was 14, and we went from a family that was pretty cohesive.
我 14 岁时，我的父母离婚了，我们来自一个非常团结的家庭。
My dad worked a lot, and sure, it had issues, but we were very cohesive to just a very different picture.
我父亲工作量很大，当然，这也有问题，但我们对一幅截然不同的画面非常有凝聚力。
My sister was off at school.
我姐姐放学了。
My dad was elsewhere.
我父亲在别处。
It was just me and my mom, and those were really, really difficult years, very, very difficult for reasons that aren't important to get into in detail now.
只有我和我妈妈，那些年真的非常非常困难，非常非常困难，原因现在不重要了。
But I was thinking the other day, I have very, very fond memories of evenings where I may or may not have been doing my homework, probably should've been.
但有一天我在想，我对那些晚上有非常非常美好的回忆，我可能在做作业，也可能没有在做作业，也许应该这样做。
But I would watch TV or do homework in the living room while my mom would cook.
但我会在客厅看电视或做作业，而我妈妈则做饭。
Sometimes she was on the phone with a friend.
有时她会和朋友通电话。
And there was music on occasionally.
偶尔还有音乐。
We'd watch "The Wonder Years," and then there was this dating show that she liked to watch, but then she'd get really upset if the couples didn't like each other and so.
我们会看《美好岁月》，然后还有她喜欢看的相亲节目，但如果夫妻俩不喜欢对方，她就会感到非常沮丧，等等。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Huh.
呵呵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And those are some of the best memories-
这些都是一些最美好的回忆——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I have-
我有-
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Hanging out
闲逛
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of me and my mom.
我和我妈妈的。
And it wasn't the trips that we took or any of that stuff.
这不是我们进行的旅行或任何其他事情。
And this graduate advisor that I had, her name was Barbara Chapman.
我的这位研究生导师，她的名字叫芭芭拉·查普曼。
She's a phenomenal scientist, like a real pure scientist.
她是一位非凡的科学家，就像一位真正的纯粹科学家。
Taught me so much about how to really think about doing really solid science.
教会了我很多关于如何真正思考做真正扎实的科学的知识。
Brilliant woman, trained at all the top places.
才华横溢的女人，在所有顶级地方受过训练。
Didn't give a shit about the accoutrements that go with...
根本没在意那些附带的装备……
She just loved doing experiments.
她只是喜欢做实验。
In any case, she had two daughters while I was in the lab, and her husband's a scientist, too.
无论如何，当我在实验室时，她有两个女儿，而且她的丈夫也是一名科学家。
So I got to know their family very well.
所以我对他们的家人非常了解。
And sadly, she passed away in 2014-
不幸的是，她于 2014 年去世了——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of cancer, and it was super devastating to all of us.
癌症，它对我们所有人来说都是毁灭性的。
So, a lot of memorials for her.
所以，人们对她有很多纪念。
But I went to the memorial at the House of Flowers in San Francisco, which is also where she and her husband had been married, and her two daughters were there.
但我去了旧金山花屋的纪念馆，那也是她和她丈夫结婚的地方，她的两个女儿也在场。
And It was heavy.
而且它很重。
All the colleagues, all the friends.
所有的同事，所有的朋友。
She was an amazing person.
她是一个了不起的人。
I'm crying buckets.
我哭得水桶。
I'm a mess.
我一团糟。
I always have to speak at her memorials.
我总是必须在她的追悼会上讲话。
It's like the eighth memorial.
就像第八个纪念馆一样。
I'm like, "I'm not going to cry." Of course, I get up there, I'm just in front of all my colleagues, all of that.
我想，“我不会哭。”当然，我站在那里，我就在所有同事面前，所有这些。
It actually taught me a few things about how to deal with people in profession, because you can't walk away from that and be like...
它实际上教会了我一些关于如何与职业人士打交道的事情，因为你不能摆脱这一点并像......
You just snot out your nose.
你只是用鼻子喷鼻涕而已。
Anyway, her daughters get up, and everyone's bracing themselves like, "This is going to be hard."
不管怎样，她的女儿们站了起来，每个人都做好了准备，“这会很困难。”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Devastating, yeah.
毁灭性的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They get up there and basically what I recall, and I think is accurate, is they were like, "We love our mom.
他们站起来，基本上我记得，而且我认为是准确的，他们就像是，“我们爱我们的妈妈。
We miss our mom," all that stuff.
我们想念我们的妈妈，”诸如此类的话。
Everyone's melting, and they just go, "But the thing we remember best and that we loved about her the most was all the unstructured time."
每个人都融化了，他们只是说，“但我们记得最清楚、最喜欢她的是那些无组织的时间。”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"She would just hang out with us."
“她只会和我们一起出去玩。”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I was like, "I don't want to break down now." Because it'd be out tears of joy, but it was just so incredible.
我当时想，“我现在不想崩溃。”因为这会让人流下喜悦的泪水，但这实在是太不可思议了。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Touching.
感人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was like, "That's so cool." Of all the things they did, the World Series, the trips they took to France, they did that, the scientific meetings that the girls got into, it's like the unstructured time.
我当时想，“那太酷了。”在他们所做的所有事情中，世界职业棒球大赛，他们去法国的旅行，他们所做的事情，女孩们参加的科学会议，这就像无组织的时间。
And I was just like, "That is so cool." And I'm actually in touch with them now.
我当时想，“那太酷了。”我现在确实和他们保持着联系。
One actually is in graduate school doing neuroscience, which is warming, but could've done anything, and it's so wild.
一个人实际上在研究生院研究神经科学，这是正在变暖的，但可以做任何事情，而且它是如此疯狂。
Because of all that, their mom's been gone probably almost as long as they had her.
正因为如此，他们的妈妈可能几乎从他们拥有她的时候就已经不在了。
And it's like the unstructured time, that was it.
这就像无组织的时间，就是这样。
That's the thing they held onto more than anything.
这是他们最坚持的事情。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That's connection.
这就是联系。
I'll tell you a story.
我给你讲一个故事。
So I was dealing with a rock star, not Bruce Springsteen, who wrote the intro to my Springsteen album.
所以我面对的是一位摇滚明星，而不是布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀，他为我的斯普林斯汀专辑写了介绍。
I'm always talking about him, but it wasn't him.
我总是在谈论他，但那不是他。
It was a different...
这是一个不同的...
But anyway, I was dealing with a rock star, and this is how he described himself.
但无论如何，我正在和一位摇滚明星打交道，这就是他对自己的描述。
"So when I'm on stage in front of 60,000 people, I'm alive.
“所以当我站在六万人面前的舞台上时，我还活着。
When I come home and I'm with my wife and four kids, I'm like a computer on sleep mode."
当我回到家与妻子和四个孩子在一起时，我就像一台处于睡眠模式的电脑。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oof.
噢。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
"I'm just half shut down and depressed." He was asleep 10 hours a day.
“我只是半封闭和沮丧。”他每天睡10个小时。
Okay, so I talked to him about gratification and relational joy, about hanging out.
好吧，我和他谈论了满足感和人际关系的快乐，以及闲逛的事情。
And I said, "Look, your kids keep, 'Daddy, daddy, daddy,' you go, 'No.' I want you to start saying, 'Yes.' And, "Dad, let's go for a walk." "Oh, okay." Get yourself up out of the chair and go be.
我说，“看，你的孩子一直在说‘爸爸，爸爸，爸爸’，而你却说‘不’。”我希望你开始说：“是的。”然后，“爸爸，我们去散步吧。” “哦，好吧。”从椅子上站起来，开始吧。
And he did.
他做到了。
And about six months in, this is an absolutely true story, he comes to me, big smile on his face.
大约六个月后，这是一个绝对真实的故事，他来到我身边，脸上挂着灿烂的笑容。
He says, "I got it." I said, "Okay, tell me.
他说：“我明白了。”我说：“好吧，告诉我。
There's a story." He goes, "This Sunday, I had the best day of my life." I said, "Go on." He said, "My wife, me, and my four kids, we didn't get out of our PJs all day.
有一个故事。”他说，“这个周日，我度过了一生中最美好的一天。”我说，“继续吧。”他说，“我的妻子、我和我的四个孩子，我们一整天都没有脱下睡衣。
We sat around and played Monopoly from 7:00 in the morning till 7:00 at night.
我们从早上 7:00 坐到晚上 7:00 玩大富翁。
I had no idea where the time went.
我不知道时间都去哪儿了。
I had no idea what we were doing.
我不知道我们在做什么。
And it was the best day of my goddamn life." And I said, "Welcome to Relational Joy." That's what I want.
这是我该死的一生中最美好的一天。”我说，“欢迎来到关系快乐。”这就是我想要的。
And that's what we're born for.
这就是我们生来的目的。
I deal with really tough couples, really tough guys.
我和一些非常强硬的夫妻、非常强硬的人打交道。
The ace in my pocket is relational connection is what we're born for.
我口袋里的王牌是关系联系，这是我们生来的目的。
And people move very quickly in the therapy I do, not just me, but all the therapists we've trained.
人们在我所做的治疗中行动得非常快，不仅仅是我，还有我们培训过的所有治疗师。
And the reason is that our whole art as RLT therapists is moving somebody out of disconnection into the jet stream of connection and relational joy.
原因是，作为 RLT 治疗师，我们的整个艺术就是让某人摆脱脱节，进入联系和关系快乐的急流中。
And once somebody is in that jet stream, oh, man, it's just so much better than the disconnection.
一旦有人处于急流中，哦，伙计，这比断线要好得多。
That the jet stream takes them, and they move very quickly and transformationally because this is what makes us happy.
急流带走了它们，它们移动得非常迅速且具有变革性，因为这就是让我们快乐的原因。
This is what fulfills us.
这就是我们的满足。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's almost like the best stuff is the stuff that you would never post on social media because it's so boring for the internet and so awesome in real life.
这几乎就像最好的东西是你永远不会在社交媒体上发布的东西，因为它对互联网来说太无聊了，但在现实生活中却太棒了。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Well said.
说得好。
That's what I want.
这就是我想要的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think I'm starting to catch your vibe.
我想我开始感受到你的氛围了。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
You're a pretty relational dude, I got to tell you.
我必须告诉你，你是一个非常善于交际的家伙。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For better or worse.
无论好坏。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I have work to do.
嗯，我还有工作要做。
I'm fortunate now to be in the landscape of what I think is a real education in peace and simplicity, despite my professional life being less about peace and simplicity, more about, "It's all good.
我现在很幸运，能够接受我认为真正的和平与简单的教育，尽管我的职业生活不太关于和平与简单，更多的是“这一切都很好。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I love my job." Love my job.
我热爱我的工作。”热爱我的工作。
But in the rest of my life, it's really peace and simplicity.
但在我的余生中，真的很平静和简单。
I had a hike with a friend recently.
最近我和一个朋友去徒步旅行。
It was awesome.
太棒了。
Just awesome.
太棒了。
We got together for a hike, talked about some things, hung out.
我们一起去远足，谈论一些事情，一起出去玩。
That was great.
那太好了。
I've taken a lot of hikes with a lot of friends, and that one was definitely a winner for whatever reason, just the relational piece.
我和很多朋友一起徒步旅行过很多次，不管出于什么原因，那一个绝对是赢家，只是关系部分。
And then also now I think she may be getting bored.
现在我想她可能会感到无聊。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I should probably ask her.
我或许应该问她。
But my girlfriend and I, these days, we just hang out and listen to music.
但我和我女朋友，这些天，我们只是出去玩，听音乐。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a lot of our time is hanging out and listening to music.
我们大部分时间都在闲逛和听音乐。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She's got great musical taste.
她很有音乐品味。
I like music, and I'm trying to learn more about other music, and I know pretty quickly if I like something or not.
我喜欢音乐，我正在尝试更多地了解其他音乐，而且我很快就知道我是否喜欢某些东西。
And she's got a treasure trove of music.
她拥有音乐宝库。
But even when we don't like something, so we just hang out and listen to music.
但即使我们不喜欢某件事，我们也会出去玩，听音乐。
Now I'm realizing we've spent a lot of time just hanging out and listening to music.
现在我意识到我们花了很多时间闲逛和听音乐。
But it's a totally different landscape because the intensity is there in certain aspects, certainly.
但这是一个完全不同的景观，因为在某些方面确实存在强度。
But the peace piece ...
但和平片...
is this whole other landscape that I'm less familiar with.
这是我不太熟悉的另一种风景。
And I should say, I take the blame for that.
我应该说，我为此承担责任。
I've been a bit of an intensity junkie in my life, for sure.
当然，在我的生活中，我是一个有点上瘾的人。
Adrenaline and I are close buddies.
肾上腺素和我是亲密的朋友。
We hang out.
我们出去玩。
We like each other.
我们彼此喜欢。
We get high off each other.
我们彼此都很兴奋。
But nowadays, that doesn't really appeal.
但如今，这并没有什么吸引力。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
No, intimacy's better.
不，亲密关系更好。
Gratification is fine, but intimacy is better.
满足固然很好，但亲密感更好。
It's a deeper satisfaction.
这是一种更深层次的满足。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
One of the things I say is, I talk about relational recovery.
我说的一件事是，我谈论关系恢复。
Addictions can be part of it, but recovering the state of relationality we're born for, that's what I'm looking for.
成瘾可能是其中的一部分，但恢复我们生来的关系状态，这就是我正在寻找的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And one of the things I say is, operating with maturity, skill, health, integrity, learning how to do this well, your life is simple.
我要说的一件事是，以成熟、技巧、健康、正直的方式进行操作，学习如何做好这件事，你的生活就会很简单。
Being fucked up, that's complicated.
搞砸了，事情就复杂了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Totally.
完全可以。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Fighting for a day and a half, that's complicated.
打了一天半，事情很复杂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Totally.
完全可以。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
When your wife comes at you and says, "I'm really mad," and you go, "I'm sorry, honey.
当你的妻子走过来对你说：“我真的很生气”，而你却说：“对不起，亲爱的。
What can I do to help you?" And she's chilled out in 10 minutes, that's simple.
我能为你做些什么吗？”十分钟后她就平静下来了，这很简单。
So relationality is actually simple.
所以关系其实很简单。
Not being relational is full of complications.
没有关系会充满复杂性。
This is easy.
这很容易。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The scientist in me has to run the experiment here.
我身上的科学家必须在这里进行实验。
So a lot of the examples you've given, I acknowledge they certainly apply.
因此，我承认您给出的很多例子确实适用。
You're the clinician, you would know, and you have your own life experience.
你是临床医生，你会知道，你有自己的生活经历。
We've got this model out on the table of the guy who doesn't really know how to listen as well as he could, still needs to learn to ask for help and ask, "What do you need right now in this moment?" To take breaks when things get ratcheted up.
我们已经把这个模型摆在了那些不太懂得如何倾听的人的桌子上，他仍然需要学会寻求帮助并询问：“此时此刻你需要什么？”当事情变得越来越激烈时休息一下。
She's got things that she needs and wants from him.
她从他那里得到了她需要和想要的东西。
He's kind of this emotionally semi-embryonic, semi-adult thing.
他在情感上是一种半胚胎、半成人的东西。
Let's turn the table.
让我们扭转局面吧。
Not because we have to, but because once again, it's rarely just one person.
不是因为我们必须这样做，而是因为这很少只是一个人。
Is there ever a time when a guy has a complaint that's valid?
是否有某个人的投诉是有效的？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Oh my God.
天哪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I just think it's important for us to do this.
因为我认为这样做对我们来说很重要。
We have a male and female audience, but I just think part of the male crisis is that it seems like the seesaw is always tilted the same way.
我们有男性和女性观众，但我认为男性危机的部分原因在于跷跷板似乎总是以相同的方式倾斜。
And that message, while probably valid in a lot of circumstances, probably more than half, if I'm honest, it's, I think sometimes men have requests and things that they want and have valid complaints, maybe invalid complaints.
这个信息虽然在很多情况下可能有效，可能超过一半，但老实说，我认为有时男人有要求和他们想要的东西，并且有有效的抱怨，也许是无效的抱怨。
Let's talk about how to voice concern, request, dare I say criticism, in a way that's healthy and that serves both people, serves relationally.
让我们谈谈如何以一种健康的、对双方都有好处、有关系的方式表达关切、要求，我敢说批评。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm not a big fan of criticism.
我不太喜欢批评。
If you go online and you do my course, we give you a format for criticism.
如果你上网学习我的课程，我们会给你一个批评的格式。
It's called the feedback wheel.
它被称为反馈轮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Constructive criticism.
建设性的批评。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
But even so, one of the skills I teach people is we're evolutionary wired, the negative bias of the brain.
但即便如此，我教给人们的技能之一是我们是进化性的，即大脑的负面偏见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
We notice what's wrong.
我们注意到出了什么问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That's survival.
这就是生存。
"Hey, that leaf shouldn't be turning." Well, there's a saber-toothed tiger on the other side.
“嘿，那片叶子不应该转动。”嗯，另一边有一只剑齿虎。
We notice what's wrong, and that's part of our evolution.
我们注意到出了什么问题，这是我们进化的一部分。
That's what comes to us first.
这就是我们首先想到的。
So complaint comes to us first.
所以我们首先要投诉。
But one of the disciplines I teach people, literally sit down, write down the complaint.
但我教给人们的纪律之一是坐下来，写下抱怨。
Okay, now flip it over.
好吧，现在把它翻过来。
Flip the page over.
将页面翻过来。
Inside of every complaint is a request.
每一个投诉的背后都是一个请求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Think about that.
想想看。
Every complaint has an implicit request in it.
每一个投诉都有一个隐含的要求。
Unless you absolutely have to, 9 out of 10 times, skip the complaint and just go for the request.
除非你绝对必须这样做，否则十次中有九次，请跳过投诉并直接提出请求。
And particularly women to men, men are criticism-phobic because we base our self-esteem on our performance.
尤其是女性对男性来说，男性害怕批评，因为我们将自尊建立在我们的表现之上。
So don't tell your guy what he's doing wrong.
所以不要告诉你的人他做错了什么。
Tell him what he could be doing a little better.
告诉他哪些方面可以做得更好。
"Hey, you're doing a great job.
“嘿，你做得很好。
This would work better." In our culture, we try and get more of what we want from each other by criticizing each other.
这样效果会更好。”在我们的文化中，我们试图通过互相批评来从对方那里得到更多我们想要的东西。
If you have to, I'll teach you how to do it.
如果你需要的话，我会教你如何做。
But better, skip the criticism and go right for what you want.
但更好的是，跳过批评，直接去做你想要的。
Empower your partner to give you what you want.
授权您的伴侣为您提供您想要的东西。
Don't beat them down by sharing your feelings about how...
不要通过分享你的感受来击败他们......
That's therapy.
这就是治疗。
Therapy's been the worst on this.
治疗在这方面是最糟糕的。
Sharing your misery at what your partner's done wrong is not going to motivate them to do it better for you.
分享你对伴侣做错事的痛苦并不会激励他们为你做得更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Help them do it better.
帮助他们做得更好。
"We're a team.
“我们是一个团队。
This is what I want from you." "Honey, what could I give you to help you give it to me?" Who sounds like that?
这就是我想要从你这里得到的。” “亲爱的，我能给你什么来帮助你把它给我？” 听起来是谁这样说的？
We have to learn how to sound like that.
我们必须学习如何听起来像那样。
So criticism.
所以批评。
I learned criticism from Janet Hurley, PM Melody's 12-step sponsor.
我从 PM Melody 的 12 步骤发起人珍妮特·赫尔利 (Janet Hurley) 那里学到了批评。
It's called the feedback wheel.
它被称为反馈轮。
I'll do it real brief, but you can go online.
我会说得很简短，但你可以上网。
Four parts.
四个部分。
This is what happened as I recollect it.
据我回忆，事情是这样的。
It's still subjective.
这仍然是主观的。
This is the story I told myself about it.
这是我告诉自己的故事。
This is what I felt, and the all-important part, this is what would make me feel better.
这就是我的感受，最重要的是，这会让我感觉更好。
So Belinda to Terry.
贝琳达对特里说。
You said you were going to be home at 7:00.
你说你要在 7:00 回家。
You didn't call or text.
你没有打电话或发短信。
You showed up at 7:45.
你7点45分出现了。
The kids and I were waiting for you.
我和孩子们都在等你。
Done.
完成。
The story I told myself was, you can be selfish.
我告诉自己的故事是，你可以自私。
And see, as long as you own it, this is the story.
看吧，只要你拥有它，这就是故事。
You can say the nasty things you're thinking.
你可以说出你所想的令人讨厌的事情。
You got caught up, you forgot about us, your work was more important, and you blew it.
你陷入困境，忘记了我们，你的工作更重要，但你却搞砸了。
What I feel about it.
我对此有何感想。
This is a big tip for your listeners.
这对你的听众来说是一个很大的提示。
Take the feeling that comes easiest to you and put that last.
把对你来说最容易的感觉放在最后。
Reach for the feelings that are less common.
触及不太常见的感受。
So if you're used to big Yeah, I'm pissed off.
所以如果你习惯了大是啊，我很生气。
Go for the vulnerability.
寻找漏洞。
I was hurt.
我受伤了。
If you're used to being hurt, go for your strength.
如果你已经习惯了受伤，那就勇敢地去争取吧。
That was really not a good way.
这实在不是什么好办法。
So whatever you're used to, flip it.
所以无论你习惯什么，翻转它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And then what we never add, "This would help me feel better.
然后我们从未添加过，“这会让我感觉更好。
This would be repair." So you're leading your partner into repair.
这就是修复。”所以你正在带领你的伴侣进行修复。
Now, here's a funny story.
现在，这是一个有趣的故事。
So Janet said you get four sentences, one sentence for each part.
所以珍妮特说你有四个句子，每个部分一个句子。
We have no attention span for being criticized, so four sentences are enough.
我们没有时间去接受批评，所以四句话就足够了。
I said to Janet, "Hey, look.
我对珍妮特说：“嘿，看。
You're a West Coast Christian.
你是西海岸基督徒。
I'm an East Coast Jew.
我是东海岸犹太人。
I've never said anything in four sentences.
我从来没有用四句话说过任何话。
I need more." She said, "Okay, I'll give you a cultural dispensation.
我需要更多。”她说，“好吧，我会给你文化豁免。
You can have eight sentences." And that was 40 years ago, and now I tell all my clients to get eight sentences.
你可以写八句话。”那是 40 年前的事了，现在我告诉我所有的客户要写八句话。
Two sentences each.
各两句。
This is what happened, this is what I told myself, this is what I felt, and this would help if you'd be willing.
这就是发生的事情，这就是我告诉自己的，这就是我的感受，如果你愿意的话，这会有所帮助。
That's how you complain.
这就是你抱怨的方式。
But for every complaint, I want 99 requests instead.
但对于每一个投诉，我想要 99 个请求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
For the record, I don't have any specific critiques that I want to wage right now.
根据记录，我现在没有任何具体的批评。
Is that a problem?
这是一个问题吗？
Is that a problem?
这是一个问题吗？
I don't have any critiques.
我没有任何批评。
I'm only in gratitude these days.
这些天我只有感激之情。
It's really weird.
真的很奇怪。
It's really wild.
真的很狂野。
Something happened right around my 50th birthday.
在我 50 岁生日前后发生了一些事情。
There were a bunch of things that led into it, but I just feel constantly grateful.
虽然发生了很多事情，但我始终心存感激。
I don't know what happened, so I'm not going to worry about it.
我不知道发生了什么，所以我不会担心。
But yeah, something hit.
但是，是的，有东西击中了。
And I like to think it has to do something with age.
我认为这与年龄有关。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I do, too.
我也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A buddy of mine who's also a professor at Stanford, he once told me, he goes, "50's really different." I went, "How different can it be?" He's like, "You'll see." I was like, "Is it pain in the body?" He's like, "No." He takes really good care of himself.
我的一个朋友也是斯坦福大学的教授，他曾经告诉我，“50 岁真的不一样了。”我说：“这能有什么不同呢？”他说：“你会看到的。”我当时想，“身体疼吗？”他说：“不。”他真的把自己照顾得很好。
He's not into lifting and running.
他不喜欢举重和跑步。
He's into some other stuff, kind of rock climbing, yoga dude.
他还喜欢其他一些东西，比如攀岩、瑜伽。
Amazing scientist, too.
也是了不起的科学家。
But he goes, "50's different." He goes, "Your brain is different at 50." And I was like, maybe it was because I was anticipating it.
但他说，“50 岁就不同了。”他说，“你的大脑到了 50 岁就不同了。”我当时想，也许是因为我在期待它。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But 50 hit and I'm like, well, I'm still here.
但到了 50 次，我就想，好吧，我还在这里。
I lived longer than a lot of my heroes.
我比我心目中的许多英雄活得更久。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I wasn't impressed by the 27 Club.
27 俱乐部并没有给我留下深刻的印象。
I mean, impressive artists, but a lot of people I knew and looked up to and who mentored me, dead.
我的意思是，令人印象深刻的艺术家，但很多我认识、尊敬和指导过我的人都去世了。
And I'm like, "This is awesome." I'm on the second half.
我想，“这太棒了。”我现在是下半场
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I wake up that way.
所以我就这样醒来。
It's wild.
它很狂野。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Well, it's the small stuff.
嗯，这都是小事。
There's some wisdom in being an elder and you had your fight with your girlfriends 353 times.
作为长辈还是有一些智慧的，你和你的女朋友吵过353次了。
You asked about me and Belinda.
你问起我和贝琳达。
I'll tell you.
我告诉你。
Belinda's a fighter and I'm a fighter.
贝琳达是一名斗士，我也是一名斗士。
We both grew up in very violent families, and our adaptive children are fighters.
我们都在非常暴力的家庭中长大，我们的孩子都是战士。
Fuck you, fuck me.
操你妈，操我。
I'm standing up for myself.
我为自己挺身而出。
I'm going to bop you right in the nose.
我要打你鼻子。
And I'm a New Yorker, too, so don't mess with me.
我也是纽约人，所以别惹我。
That's my adaptive child.
这就是我的适应性孩子。
That's my instinct.
这是我的本能。
And 30 years ago, we would fight for weeks, Belinda and I.
30 年前，贝琳达和我会争吵数周。
I mean, yelling, screaming, rage.
我的意思是，大喊大叫、尖叫、愤怒。
Go to bed at 3:00 in the morning, wake up at 7:00, tell other people how to live their lives all day, and then come back and fight again.
早上3：00睡觉，7：00起床，告诉别人这一整天的生活，然后回来再奋斗。
This is true.
这是真的。
1%, we look ugly just like everybody else, but 99, we start to fight, we take a break.
1%，我们和其他人一样看起来很丑，但是99，我们开始战斗，我们休息一下。
We both know what that's about.
我们都知道那是怎么回事。
15, 20 minutes, and it's not one or the other, it's kind of even.
15分钟、20分钟，不是非此即彼，是均匀的。
One of us will go to the other and say, and it sounds something like this, Andrew.
我们中的一个人会去找另一个人说，听起来像这样，安德鲁。
"I don't want to fight.
“我不想打架。
Do you really want to fight?
你真的想打架吗？
I mean, we could, but I don't really want to, honey.
我的意思是，我们可以，但我真的不想这么做，亲爱的。
What do you need?" And Belinda will say to me, "Well, you really were an asshole about dot, dot, dot." And I'll go, "Yeah, I was.
你需要什么？”贝琳达会对我说，“嗯，你真的是个混蛋。”我会说，“是的，我是。
You're right.
你说得对。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
I'll work on that." And she'll go, "What do you need?" And I'll go, "Well, you could really apologize about one, two, three." And she'll go, "I'll apologize about one." 20 years ago, "Well, what about two and three?" Now, "Good.
我会解决这个问题。”她会说，“你需要什么？”我会说，“好吧，你真的可以为一、二、三道歉。”她会说，“我会为一个道歉。”20年前，“那么，二和三呢？”现在，“很好。
One, fine.
一，很好。
We'll take it." "Good?
我们会接受它。” “好不好？
Good.
好的。
Great.
伟大的。
What's on TV?
电视上有什么节目？
Let's cuddle up on the couch and have an evening." And what I'm really thinking in that moment is this, and this is what I teach people.
让我们依偎在沙发上，度过一个晚上吧。”那一刻我真正想的是这个，这就是我教给人们的东西。
How do I want to spend my evening?
我想如何度过我的夜晚？
How do I want to spend my time?
我想如何度过我的时间？
Is it really worth it to me to prove my point and nail her into the ground, or can we make peace efficiently and skillfully and move the hell on?
我真的值得证明自己的观点并将她钉在地上吗？或者我们可以有效而巧妙地讲和并继续前进吗？
We behave with skill because it's in our interest to do so.
我们行事有技巧，因为这样做符合我们的利益。
I'm not making peace with Belinda for her.
我不会为了她而与贝琳达和解。
I'm making peace with Belinda for me.
我正在为我自己与贝琳达和解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love, love, love this word, this language around being skilled in relating, especially when things potentially get tense.
我爱，爱，爱这个词，这种关于熟练地联系的语言，尤其是当事情可能变得紧张时。
It encapsulates all the things around asking for help, asking what one needs.
它概括了有关寻求帮助、询问需要什么的所有事情。
That's so powerful.
太强大了。
I've said it like four times, so forgive me, but I think people need to hear it again.
我已经说过四遍了，所以请原谅我，但我认为人们需要再听一遍。
Just asking, what do you need?
只是问，你需要什么？
If we could somehow program ourselves to turn the-- We all know that feeling when our limbic system's activated and you start feeling your body, whatever activation state you get into.
如果我们能够以某种方式对自己进行编程，以将--我们都知道当我们的边缘系统被激活并且你开始感觉到你的身体时的感觉，无论你进入什么激活状态。
That's the limbic system.
这就是边缘系统。
We all know it when it happens, and if that could just translate to the words like, "What do you need?" And as you pointed out, that's best for both people.
当它发生时我们都知道，如果这可以翻译成“你需要什么？”之类的话。正如您所指出的，这对双方来说都是最好的。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
It's prepare All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair.
准备好了 所有的关系都是和谐、不和谐和修复的无尽舞蹈。
I got this from Ed Tronick, infant observational researcher.
这是我从婴儿观察研究员埃德·特罗尼克那里得到的。
Ed and Barry Brazelton were the first of a generation to stop thinking about mothers and infants reconstructed from adults, and actually stuck cameras in front of mothers and infants, and then fathers and infants, and looked at what happened.
埃德·布拉泽尔顿和巴里·布拉泽尔顿是一代人中第一个不再思考由成人重建的母亲和婴儿的人，他们实际上把摄像机放在母亲和婴儿、然后是父亲和婴儿面前，观察发生了什么。
And I borrowed from Ed that all relationships are an endless rhythm of closeness, disruption, and a return.
我借用了埃德的说法，所有的关系都是一种无尽的亲密、破坏和回归的节奏。
And in our culture, we don't learn the skills of moving from disillusionment, distance, disruption back into repair and return.
在我们的文化中，我们没有学习从幻灭、距离、破坏回到修复和回归的技能。
And what makes life even more dicey is when we're in that disrupted state, we lose our prefrontal cortex-wise adult and move into the adaptive child.
而让生活变得更加危险的是，当我们处于那种混乱的状态时，我们就会失去前额皮质的成年人，转而成为适应性强的儿童。
So the first skill is getting back in your right mind and then, "Okay, honey, what do you need?
所以第一个技能就是恢复正常的思维，然后，“好吧，亲爱的，你需要什么？
Let's fix this together."
让我们一起解决这个问题。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the work that men, boys, men can do to understand and work on their self-esteem, dare I say, in a vacuum?
我敢说，男人、男孩、男人可以做些什么来理解和增强他们的自尊，我敢说，在真空中？
I know it's all relational.
我知道这都是有关系的。
You have to do it, but there are people whose time is spent taking care of their job, their school, scrolling, spending some time doing-- I see an opportunity in the work that you do, and the fact that you're here, for young guys to start earlier.
你必须这样做，但有些人把时间花在了工作、学业、滚动上，花一些时间做——我在你所做的工作中看到了机会，事实上你在这里，年轻人可以更早开始。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, I got lucky with someone taught me how to work out properly a long time ago.
我的意思是，我很幸运，很久以前就有人教我如何正确锻炼。
He was the guy everyone said was an idiot about how to work out.
每个人都说他是一个关于如何锻炼的白痴。
Turns out it worked, and you didn't have to do it spending your whole life in a gym.
事实证明它有效，而且你不必在健身房里度过一生。
I got lucky by having great mentors.
我很幸运有很棒的导师。
I got lucky.
我很幸运。
I also fired some mentors and got new ones, so I played an active role.
我也解雇了一些导师并聘请了新导师，所以我发挥了积极的作用。
But you're incredibly skilled in this domain.
但你在这个领域非常熟练。
It's your profession.
这是你的职业。
And there are guys in their teens, 20s, 30s, all the way up to 80s, 90s, surely, that can learn.
当然，有十几岁、二十多岁、三十多岁、一直到八十多岁、九十多岁的人都可以学习。
But there's a special opportunity in starting to cultivate these skills in one's teens and 20s and 30s.
但在十几岁、二十多岁和三十多岁时开始培养这些技能有一个特殊的机会。
And perhaps even having them when one shows up to relationship in much better form than certainly I had for sure.
当一个人以比我肯定更好的形式出现在关系中时，甚至可能拥有它们。
So what does that work look like?
那么这项工作是什么样的呢？
Like is it journaling?
比如写日记？
How does it work?
它是如何运作的？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I have two pieces of advice.
我有两个建议。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you have sons, I should point out.
我应该指出，你有儿子。
You have some experience teaching people how to do this.
您有一些教人们如何做到这一点的经验。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yeah.
是的。
We've taught them this.
我们已经教过他们这一点。
My-- Jack, the son.
我的——杰克，儿子。
I was driving to school, and he's giving me shit, and I tell him to stop.
我开车去学校，他对我大骂，我让他停下来。
He gives me shit.
他给我狗屎。
And I look at him and I go, "Do you think this is appropriate for our relationship?" And he falls on the floor.
我看着他，问道：“你认为这适合我们的关系吗？”他倒在地板上。
And he says, "Dad, there are dads driving their sons to school all over America.
他说：“爸爸，美国各地都有爸爸开车送儿子上学。
They're talking about the game.
他们正在谈论游戏。
They're talking about friends.
他们正在谈论朋友。
How many dads are saying to their son, 'Do you think this is appropriate for our relationship?'" Anyway, he does a whole routine about being the son of Touyzot.
有多少父亲会对他们的儿子说，‘你认为这适合我们的关系吗？’”无论如何，作为图伊佐特的儿子，他做了一整套例行公事。
But they bitch about it, but we taught them.
但他们对此抱怨不已，但我们却教会了他们。
And my Alexander, my high-achieving doctor researcher, to this day, he'll call and he'll go, "I really blew that presentation." I felt, "I know I'm enough, and I matter even though I blew the presentation, but I just want you to know." We can teach our kids healthier mores.
我的亚历山大，我成就斐然的博士研究员，直到今天，他都会打电话说，“我的演讲真的搞砸了。”我觉得，“我知道我已经足够了，即使我搞砸了演示，我也很重要，但我只想让你知道。”我们可以教给我们的孩子更健康的习惯。
It's part of our job as parents.
这是我们作为父母工作的一部分。
I have a little course online, Raising Relational Boys and Girls.
我有一门在线课程，《培养关系男孩和女孩》。
We can insist on more relationality.
我们可以坚持更多的关系。
We can create, like a pick in basketball, we can create a relationally cherishing subculture around our children, friends, family.
我们可以创造，就像篮球中的选秀权一样，我们可以在我们的孩子、朋友和家人周围创造一种相互珍惜的亚文化。
Teach them.
教他们。
Go into school and do an anti-bullying campaign.
走进学校开展反欺凌活动。
We can consciously download this to our kids and be explicit about it.
我们可以有意识地将其下载给我们的孩子并明确说明。
In terms of the young person themselves, I have two pieces of advice.
就年轻人本身而言，我有两个建议。
One, find older people who are good at this and let them be your mentor.
第一，找到擅长这方面的年长人士，让他们成为你的导师。
Go to them and be explicit and let them teach you.
去找他们并明确地告诉他们，让他们教你。
But find people who are happy.
但要找到快乐的人。
Teach our kids how to be relational.
教我们的孩子如何建立人际关系。
Stand up for it and create a culture around them that supports that, because the playground won't, the school won't, your colleagues won't.
挺身而出，并在他们周围创造一种支持这一点的文化，因为操场不会，学校不会，你的同事不会。
So create a little counterculture of relationality and surround your family with them.
因此，创造一点关系性的反文化，让它们围绕在你的家人身边。
For the young person, find mentors who are happy and let them teach you about how to be happy.
对于年轻人来说，找到快乐的导师，让他们教你如何快乐。
And the other thing I want to teach, which is true for all of us, and I would not be able to forgive myself if I didn't say this one thing in our podcast.
我想教的另一件事，对我们所有人来说都是如此，如果我不在我们的播客中说这一点，我将无法原谅自己。
We have a lot of people listening.
我们有很多人在听。
This is what I want to say.
这就是我想说的。
If you get one thing from our conversation today, and you only get this, this one thing will be enough to change your life.
如果你从我们今天的谈话中得到一件事，而且你只得到这一点，这一件事就足以改变你的生活。
I mean it.
我是认真的。
Here's what it is.
这就是它是什么。
There is no redeeming value in harshness.
严酷没有任何救赎价值。
Let me say it again.
我再说一遍。
There is nothing that harshness does that loving firmness doesn't do better.
没有什么是严酷能做的，而爱的坚定却能做得更好。
Be firm, but with love, not harshness.
要坚定，但要带着爱，而不是严厉。
And that's you treating others, that's the way you allow others to treat you, and very much, that's the way you treat you I am on an anti-harshness campaign.
这就是你对待别人的方式，这就是你允许别人对待你的方式，而且非常重要的是，这就是你对待自己的方式，我正在开展反严厉运动。
And what I say to friends, family, students, and it's true, at 75, I have a deal with the universe.
我对朋友、家人、学生说的话是真的，75 岁时，我与宇宙达成了协议。
If it isn't kind, I'm not interested.
如果不友善，我不感兴趣。
And that adaptive child that lives inside me can be very harsh to my own imperfection.
住在我内心的那个适应性强的孩子可能对我自己的不完美非常严厉。
And I will say to that, or to Belinda, or to a colleague, "You may have something to say to me, and it may be in my interest to learn and listen to you, but you have to say it like you're on my side.
我会对那个人、贝琳达或同事说：“你可能有话要对我说，学习和听你的可能符合我的利益，但你必须说得像你站在我一边一样。
If you can't say it like you're on my side, I'm not going to listen." So, a hallmark of relationality is that it's loving and not harsh.
如果你不能像站在我这边一样说出来，我就不会听。”所以，关系的一个标志是它是充满爱的而不是严厉的。
Let that be your bellwether.
让它成为你的领头羊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that, especially the part about the voice inside of us, because I think we internalize the judgmental voice of the parent or the dismissive voice of the parent.
我喜欢这一点，尤其是关于我们内心声音的部分，因为我认为我们内化了父母的评判声音或父母轻蔑的声音。
All that stuff gets in our heads, and it drives so much of our misery.
所有这些东西都会进入我们的脑海，给我们带来很多痛苦。
And what you just described offers a tremendous amount of agency.
你刚才所描述的提供了巨大的代理能力。
Yes, in terms of what we will accept or won't accept from others, what we request from others, let's be positive here.
是的，对于我们会接受或不会接受别人的什么，我们对别人的要求是什么，我们要保持积极的态度。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But at least equally importantly is what I heard, is how harsh we are with our inner dialogue, and that we should cultivate a kindness internally.
但至少同样重要的是我所听到的，我们对内心对话的严厉程度，以及我们应该培养内心的善良。
Because I do believe, I'm certain that cultivates an external kindness.
因为我确实相信，所以我确信培养外在的善意。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Yes.
是的。
Start with you.
从你开始。
Be kind to you.
对你友善一点。
Okay, so I'll tell a story, if you're not bored.
好吧，如果你不觉得无聊的话，我就讲个故事吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, please.
不，请。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
An absolutely true story.
一个绝对真实的故事。
So I was off at a conference, and blah, blah, blah.
所以我去参加一个会议，等等，等等。
And I was signing books.
我正在签名售书。
And it was late, and one of my handlers, "Terry, you're going to miss your plane.
当时已经很晚了，我的一位经纪人对我说：“特里，你会错过飞机的。
Blah, blah, blah." Okay, I gather up, I'm on the plane.
巴拉、巴拉、巴拉。”好的，我收拾好，我在飞机上。
I'm on the plane.
我在飞机上。
I'm not drinking now, but I was drinking then.
我现在不喝酒，但当时我在喝酒。
I had a little glass of chardonnay, I had my feet up, and I'm feeling great.
我喝了一小杯霞多丽，抬起脚，感觉棒极了。
And I feel this coldness on my chest.
我感到胸口冰冷。
And I looked down, and there was this big black splotch on my shirt.
我低头一看，我的衬衫上有一个很大的黑色斑点。
And I realized I was signing books with a Sharpie.
我意识到我正在用记号笔在书上签名。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
And in my haste, I didn't put the cap on, and it was permanent ink.
由于仓促，我没有盖上盖子，那是永久性墨水。
And I got to tell you, Andrew, this is one of my "I hope I go on Oprah" shirt.
我必须告诉你，安德鲁，这是我的一件“我希望我能登上奥普拉”衬衫。
This is an expensive goddamn shirt.
这是一件该死的昂贵衬衫。
And I'm ADD, I'm always breaking things, bumping into things.
我很ADD，总是打碎东西、撞到东西。
So that adaptive child part of me was going to town.
所以我身上那个适应性强的孩子要去城里。
"You're such a loser.
“你真是个失败者。
Look at you." And I'm depressive.
看看你。”而且我很抑郁。
I've wrote about it.
我已经写过相关内容。
That shirt and the harshness that I would level against myself could've turned into a five-day depression when I was younger.
当我年轻的时候，那件衬衫和我对自己的严厉可能会变成五天的抑郁症。
And having learned these techniques, it's just a young boy in me, and I leaned to that adaptive child, and I said, "Listen, sweetheart, let me tell you something.
学会了这些技巧后，我内心就只是一个小男孩，我向那个适应性强的孩子倾斜，我说：“听着，亲爱的，让我告诉你一些事情。
The same ADD brain that ruined this shirt is the brain that wrote the books that were being autographed.
毁掉这件衬衫的 ADD 大脑就是写签名书籍的大脑。
So how about you cut me some slack?
那你给我放宽心怎么样？
I'm a therapist.
我是一名治疗师。
I have very little cost of Kleenex in office.
我在办公室用面巾纸的费用很少。
This shirt, cost of doing business.
这件衬衫，做生意的成本。
Sit down and let me enjoy my wine." And he did.
请坐下，让我享受我的酒。”他做到了。
We don't have to be passive about these things.
我们不必对这些事情感到被动。
We can shape what goes on in our relationships, include our relationships to ourselves.
我们可以塑造我们的关系中发生的事情，包括我们与自己的关系。
Stand up for health, but with finesse and love, not with a blunt instrument.
为了健康挺身而出，但要用技巧和爱，而不是用钝器。
And we get better at it.
我们在这方面做得越来越好。
You love the gym.
你喜欢健身房。
You go to the gym and you work out.
你去健身房锻炼身体。
The first time, you feel like you're going to throw up.
第一次，你感觉自己要吐了。
You go to the gym the 300th time, you got it nailed.
你去健身房第 300 次，你就成功了。
Same thing with this.
与此相同。
That harsh voice turns on you, and you say, "Honey, stop." The first time you do it, they'll laugh at you.
那刺耳的声音转向你，你说：“亲爱的，停下来。”你第一次这么做的时候，他们会嘲笑你。
The 300th time you do it, they'll stop.
当你这样做第 300 次时，他们就会停止。
That's called liberation.
这就是所谓的解脱。
That's freedom.
这就是自由。
That's our birthright.
这是我们与生俱来的权利。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Well, Terry Real, this was a true education in relational understanding.
好吧，特里·雷尔（Terry Real），这是一次真正的关系理解教育。
That's the word I'm looking for.
这就是我要找的词。
In relational understanding.
在关系理解中。
Because I think men especially, we think about ourselves and the landscape and how we're going to deal with the landscape.
因为我认为尤其是男人，我们会考虑我们自己和风景，以及我们将如何处理风景。
Maybe now, just with your permission, I'll just say, I have this wild, somewhat facetious story about the Y chromosome.
也许现在，只要你允许，我就说，我有一个关于 Y 染色体的疯狂、有点滑稽的故事。
May I?
我可以？
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Go ahead.
前进。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
May I?
我可以吗？
So I have a theory that long ago, some primordial version of us, a Homo sapiens with a Y chromosome, picked up a rock and was like, "Oh, interesting." And then just hit his head with it and was like, "Ow, that hurts." And then hit the guy next to him, and they were like, "Oh, that hurts." And then they got together and were like, "What would happen if we threw this over that tree?
所以我有一个理论，很久以前，我们的一些原始版本，一个带有 Y 染色体的智人，捡起了一块石头，然后说，“哦，有趣。”然后就用它敲击他的头，然后说：“噢，好痛。”然后打了他旁边的那个人，他们就像，“哦，那很痛。”然后他们聚在一起说：“如果我们把这个扔到那棵树上会发生什么？
Let's see." And I sort of am half-joking because I think there's something about the Y chromosome that you observe in-- If you go to a wedding and there's boys there, and everyone has their jackets and their ties, and within no time, the boys are combining all the drinks, and they're like, "What would happen if...
让我们看看。”我有点半开玩笑，因为我认为你可以观察到 Y 染色体的一些东西——如果你去参加一个婚礼，那里有男孩，每个人都有夹克和领带，很快，男孩们就把所有的饮料混合在一起，他们会说，“如果......会发生什么？
And who's going to drink it?
谁会喝它？
And then at some point, it turns into this idea of having action at a distance.
然后在某个时刻，它变成了远距离行动的想法。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's something about the Y chromosome.
Y染色体有一些东西。
We want to see that-- Sometimes it's a remote control car.
我们希望看到——有时它是一辆遥控汽车。
The first time you play with a remote control car, you're like, "Oh, wow, I can control something at a distance."
当你第一次玩遥控车时，你会想，“哦，哇，我可以远距离控制一些东西。”
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds very diabolical, but it's just cool.
听起来很邪恶，但确实很酷。
You're over here, it's over there, right?
你在这儿，它在那边，对吗？
And likewise with the video gamers.
视频游戏玩家也是如此。
There's something about this action at a distance and let's see what would happen if.
这个远距离动作有一定的道理，让我们看看如果发生的话会发生什么。
And I look at a lot of my adult male friends, some who are very, very successful phenoms, and they're still playing this game of what would happen if and action at a distance to get this feedback about whether or not they're doing well in life.
我观察了我的很多成年男性朋友，其中一些是非常非常成功的杰出人物，他们仍然在玩这个游戏，假设会发生什么，并采取远距离行动，以获得有关他们生活是否过得好的反馈。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All awesome features to being male.
作为男性的所有令人敬畏的特征。
I love being male.
我喜欢当男性。
I think the Y chromosome should be celebrated, just as the X chromosome should be celebrated.
我认为 Y 染色体应该受到庆祝，就像 X 染色体应该受到庆祝一样。
And at the same time, none of that addresses what you were talking about today.
与此同时，这些都没有涉及您今天谈论的内容。
And so there are a few people, only a few, and I know you're among them now, having spoken to you and heard from you, more importantly, who can understand the first piece about what would happen if and the action at a distance, and the second piece, the relational piece.
因此，只有少数人，只有少数人，我知道你现在就在他们之中，与你交谈并收到你的来信，更重要的是，他们能够理解第一部分关于如果远距离会发生什么和行动，以及第二部分，关系部分。
And all too often, these are separated.
而且很多时候，这些都是分开的。
It's like, oh, let's talk about evolutionary theory, about what men need, a provider, protector.
就像，哦，我们来谈谈进化论，谈谈人类需要什么，一个提供者，一个保护者。
And then it's like, no, let's actually feel our feelings and dissolve into a puddle of our own tears, and then we're going to resurrect in a new form that's enlightened.
然后就好像，不，让我们真正感受我们的感受并溶解在我们自己的泪水中，然后我们将以一种开明的新形式复活。
No. These things have to be-
不，这些东西必须是——
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
whole.
整个。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Whole.
整个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whole.
整个。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
I want wholeness.
我想要完整。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the word I'm looking for.
这就是我要找的词。
You are speaking to how men and boys can be whole people, and I love it.
你正在谈论男人和男孩如何成为完整的人，我喜欢它。
And you give very practical, very actionable advice, and it's going to help a lot of people.
你给出了非常实用、非常可行的建议，这会帮助很多人。
So I'm very grateful that you've written your books.
所以我非常感谢你写了书。
We'll put links to your books, to your courses.
我们将添加您的书籍、课程的链接。
It sounds like people can sign up for these courses and take these courses.
听起来人们可以报名参加这些课程并参加这些课程。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
Please.
请。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for coming here today and for being a public educator and teaching people, men and women, but today mostly men, how to love themselves more, love other people more, love life more, and learn to relate.
今天来到这里，作为一名公共教育者，教导人们，男人和女人，但今天主要是男人，如何更加爱自己，更加爱别人，更加热爱生活，并学会如何相处。
So thank you so much for coming here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
You're doing beautiful work.
你做得很漂亮。
There's so much bullshit and darkness in this world right now, and I want to tell you, it's a blessing to be taken seriously by you and to be offered this opportunity.
现在这个世界上有太多的废话和黑暗，我想告诉你，被你认真对待并获得这个机会是一种祝福。
And it's fun hanging out with you.
和你一起出去玩很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right back at you.
就回到你身边。
I feel very honored and blessed to have you here, and this was a lot of fun.
我对你们来到这里感到非常荣幸和幸运，这很有趣。
To be continued.
待续。
Terry Real:
特里·雷亚尔：
To be continued.
待续。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Terry Real.
感谢您参加今天与 Terry Real 的讨论。
To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Terry Real.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Terry Real 的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
You matched on Hinge.
您在铰链上匹配。
You're vibing.
你很有活力。
Then her energy completely changes.
然后她的能量就彻底改变了。
What do you do?
你做什么？
I'm Raven Smith, and I wrote and read a real love story about this exact sitch.
我是雷文·史密斯，我写过并读过一个关于这个故事的真实爱情故事。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。