Cultivating Awe & Emotional Connection in Daily Life | Dr. Dacher Keltner
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Awe is good for reduced inflammation, elevated vagal tone, reduced long COVID symptoms.
敬畏有利于减少炎症、提高迷走神经张力、减少长期新冠症状。
We have people with long COVID, just a minute of awe a day reduce long COVID symptoms.
我们有长期感染新冠病毒的人，每天只需敬畏一分钟，就能减轻长期新冠病毒的症状。
It's good news, right?
这是个好消息，对吧？
And there's so much science on it that now I think medical doctors are starting to think, "I'm going to prescribe nature.
这方面有如此多的科学依据，现在我认为医生们开始思考，“我要开自然处方。
I'll prescribe music through awe as a mechanism."
我将通过敬畏作为一种机制来规定音乐。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Dacher Keltner.
今天我的客人是 Dacher Keltner 博士。
Dr. Dacher Keltner is a professor of psychology and the co-director of the Greater Good Science Center at the University of California, Berkeley.
Dacher Keltner 博士是加州大学伯克利分校心理学教授兼至善科学中心联席主任。
Dacher is an expert in the science of emotions and their role in social dynamics and bonding.
达赫是情绪科学及其在社会动态和联系中的作用的专家。
Today, we discuss his fascinating work on the science of emotions, including the role of teasing in social bonding, the role of embarrassment in social bonding, and his fascinating work on awe and the things that lead to awe.
今天，我们讨论他在情感科学方面的精彩工作，包括戏弄在社会联系中的作用、尴尬在社会联系中的作用，以及他在敬畏和导致敬畏的事物方面的精彩工作。
As he describes, awe is not elusive.
正如他所描述的，敬畏并非难以捉摸。
It happens when we shift our perception from a very small scale to a very large scale or back again, such as when we suddenly reach a new horizon or visual vista.
当我们将感知从非常小的尺度转移到非常大的尺度或再次返回时，例如当我们突然到达新的地平线或视觉远景时，就会发生这种情况。
Today, you'll understand what all of that really means, and more importantly, how you can create this incredible thing that we call awe in everyday life.
今天，您将了解所有这一切的真正含义，更重要的是，您将如何在日常生活中创造出我们称之为敬畏的令人难以置信的事物。
We also talk about the critical aspect of human bonding in groups and the things that both establish and inhibit deep human bonds.
我们还讨论了群体中人际关系的关键方面，以及建立和抑制深层人际关系的因素。
So today is a very practical as well as conceptual conversation that no doubt will change the way that you think about your life every day, and think about opportunities for awe every day.
因此，今天是一次非常实用且概念性的对话，毫无疑问，它将改变您每天思考生活的方式，并每天思考敬畏的机会。
As you'll soon see, Dacher Keltner is a truly special scientist, known for his incredible rigor and creativity in the study of emotions, but also continually offering you, the public, ways to be and feel genuinely better and to get more out of life.
正如您很快就会看到的那样，Dacher Keltner 是一位真正特殊的科学家，以其在情感研究方面令人难以置信的严谨性和创造力而闻名，同时也不断为您（公众）提供真正变得更好、感觉更好、从生活中获得更多的方法。
It was a true honor and pleasure to host him.
接待他真是我的荣幸和高兴。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Dacher Keltner.
现在我与 Dacher Keltner 博士进行讨论。
Dr. Dacher Keltner, welcome.
Dacher Keltner 博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Good to be with you, Andrew.
很高兴和你在一起，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awe.
敬畏。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think we all intuitively know what it is, and yet we also don't know how to articulate it.
我认为我们都直观地知道它是什么，但我们也不知道如何表达它。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to say the words overwhelmed, excited.
我想说的词是不知所措、兴奋。
I get the physical sensation of a lift.
我有一种电梯般的身体感觉。
I don't think anyone ever said the word awe and then collapsed-
我认为没有人说过敬畏这个词然后就崩溃了——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
No, that's interesting
不，这很有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
into a turtle position.
成乌龟姿势。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe we could explore that and your thoughts about that.
也许我们可以探讨一下这个问题以及你对此的想法。
But what got you into awe?
但是什么让你敬畏呢？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I love the word lift.
我喜欢“提升”这个词。
That's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
I was a young scholar in the science of emotion that really Paul Ekman was a pioneer in.
我是情感科学领域的一位年轻学者，保罗·埃克曼确实是这方面的先驱。
And that field in the '90s and early 2000s was really focused on negative emotions.
20 世纪 90 年代和 2000 年代初，这个领域真正关注的是负面情绪。
And you know the science, right?
你知道科学，对吧？
Anger, fear, fight or flight physiology, amygdala, cortisol, disgust, Paul Rozin and John Haidt, and thinking about emotions from that lens.
愤怒、恐惧、战斗或逃跑生理学、杏仁核、皮质醇、厌恶、保罗·罗津和约翰·海特，以及从这个角度思考情绪。
And as a young scientist, and given the powerful tools of emotion science of Darwin and Ekman and how to just observe phenomena, it didn't make contact with my life and my own experience.
作为一名年轻的科学家，鉴于达尔文和埃克曼的情感科学的强大工具以及如何观察现象，它与我的生活和我自己的经历没有联系。
I was raised as a wild child in the late '60s in Laurel Canyon, and it was music and social change and protest and beauty, and I was raised by a dad who's a visual artist, and my mom taught Romanticism and Virginia Woolf and awe and the mind and I was like, wow, there's all this stuff that our science, my science, can't speak to.
六十年代末，我在劳雷尔峡谷长大，还是个野孩子，音乐、社会变革、抗议和美丽，我的父亲是一位视觉艺术家，我的母亲教浪漫主义、弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫、敬畏和心灵，我当时想，哇，这些都是我们的科学、我的科学无法解释的东西。
Music and visual patterns and dance and collective movement, and someone like Martin Luther King and why he makes me cry.
音乐、视觉模式、舞蹈和集体运动，还有像马丁·路德·金这样的人以及他为什么让我哭泣。
And I remember feeling this and asking Paul Ekman, I was like, "What should I do with my career?" And he's like, "Study awe." And so that got me going.
我记得有这种感觉，我问保罗·埃克曼，“我的职业生涯应该做什么？”他说，“学习敬畏。”这让我继续前进。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If we could, maybe we could talk about the faces for a moment.
如果可以的话，也许我们可以谈谈这些面孔。
I think every psychology and neuroscience student-
我认为每个心理学和神经科学的学生——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sees these faces of disgust-
看到这些厌恶的面孔——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of pleasure.
的快乐。
Darwin talked about this.
达尔文曾谈到过这个问题。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Babies are often presented in parallel with those pictures of adults-
婴儿的照片经常与成人的照片同时出现——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where they'll show a baby recoiling from something-
他们会展示一个婴儿因某事而退缩-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or wide-eyed and leaning in.
或睁大眼睛并倾身。
There always seems to be a motor component to this that maybe isn't as captured in those two-dimensional photographs.
似乎总是有一个运动组件，可能没有在那些二维照片中捕捉到。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what's the story about hardwired facial emotions, and what are the revisions to that story that I'm probably not aware of?
但是关于固有的面部情绪的故事是什么，以及我可能不知道的对这个故事的修改是什么？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Thank you for asking that.
谢谢你这么问。
I've spent 30 years working on that very problem.
我花了 30 年的时间来解决这个问题。
Paul Ekman came in and, as you've suggested, he did this revolutionary work in New Guinea, showed photos of six emotions, static photographs of anger, fear, sadness, disgust, surprise, and a smile.
保罗·埃克曼进来了，正如你所建议的，他在新几内亚做了这项革命性的工作，展示了六种情绪的照片，愤怒、恐惧、悲伤、厌恶、惊讶和微笑的静态照片。
They kind of interpreted the faces like you or I would, naming it, using the right words to describe those faces.
他们就像你或我一样解释这些面孔，命名它，使用正确的词语来描述这些面孔。
And this is how science occasionally works, which is just by accident, that became the field.
科学偶尔就是这样运作的，只是偶然，它才成为了这个领域。
And there are a lot of debates about how reliable those faces are, how universal are they in different cultures.
关于这些面孔的可靠性如何以及它们在不同文化中的普遍性存在很多争论。
Ekman really posited sort of a strong universality that's been contested by Jim Russell, Lisa Feldman Barrett, and others.
埃克曼确实提出了一种很强的普遍性，但吉姆·拉塞尔、丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特和其他人对此提出了质疑。
But since then There are controversies around how hardwired they are.
但从那时起，关于它们的硬连接程度就存在争议。
Do they occur reliably in a child's development?
它们在孩子的成长过程中可靠地发生吗？
Yes and no. Young children show disgust expressions like social mammals do.
是和不是。年幼的孩子会像社交哺乳动物一样表现出厌恶的表情。
They wince at bad smells just like you or I would.
就像你我一样，它们闻到难闻的气味就会畏缩。
Anger is a little bit trickier to pin down developmentally.
从发展的角度来确定愤怒有点棘手。
But then our lab and several labs around the world, Jess Tracy at UB, British Columbia, Disa Sauter, and I want to talk about this computational work, started to expand the vocabulary of faces.
但后来我们的实验室和世界各地的几个实验室，不列颠哥伦比亚大学的杰西·特雷西（Jess Tracy），迪萨·索特（Disa Sauter）和我想谈谈这项计算工作，开始扩大面孔的词汇量。
And now there's a lot of data that suggests there are 20 different facial expressions.
现在有大量数据表明有 20 种不同的面部表情。
Laughter, love, compassion, awe, whoa, embarrassment, shame, pain, and that, in some sense, has broadened the taxonomy of emotions.
笑、爱、同情、敬畏、哇、尴尬、羞耻、痛苦，从某种意义上说，这些拓宽了情感的分类。
We used to think of six.
我们曾经想到过六个。
Now there are probably 20 distinct states in the mind, and that's where the field is heading, is to really start to think about physiological patterns, brain patterns of these distinct states.
现在大脑中可能有 20 种不同的状态，这就是该领域的发展方向，即真正开始思考这些不同状态的生理模式和大脑模式。
And I'll tell you, the hardwiring question, it's hard science to do.
我会告诉你，这个硬连线问题是很难用科学来解决的。
Just to imagine videotaping people from five different countries, getting their emotional expressions, and then making sense of them.
试想一下，对来自五个不同国家的人们进行录像，获取他们的情绪表达，然后理解它们。
It used to take one hour to code the facial muscle movements of one minute.
过去，编码一分钟的面部肌肉动作需要一个小时。
So this is slow science, and I would really encourage listeners and viewers to go to alancowan.com.
所以这是缓慢的科学，我真的鼓励听众和观众去 alancowan.com。
And I had a grad student at Berkeley, Alan Cowan, who he's a computational genius, and he looked at our old science and said, "We can use AI to code the face." And he did it with Google engineers.
我在伯克利有一位研究生艾伦·考恩（Alan Cowan），他是一位计算天才，他看着我们古老的科学并说：“我们可以使用人工智能来编码面部。”他和谷歌工程师一起做到了。
He coded 2 million videos from 144 cultures and 16 facial expressions, 75% overlap across cultures in how we show awe at fireworks, concentration on a test, laugh at friends.
他编写了来自 144 种文化和 16 种面部表情的 200 万个视频，在我们如何表达对烟花的敬畏、专注于考试、嘲笑朋友等方面，不同文化之间有 75% 的重叠。
So right now, I would say 50% to 60% is hardwired as part of who we are in our evolutionary history.
所以现在，我想说 50% 到 60% 是我们进化史上与生俱来的一部分。
And then the rest is subject to variation in interesting ways.
然后其余部分会以有趣的方式发生变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Joovv.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Joovv。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学和健康产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, red light, near-infrared, and infrared light have been specifically shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health.
现在，除了我在这个播客中多次谈论的阳光之外，红光、近红外光和红外光已被具体证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用。
These include faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improvements in vision.
这些包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康、伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症、改善线粒体功能，甚至改善视力。
Nowadays, there are a lot of red light devices out there, but what sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning they use the specific wavelengths of red light, near-infrared, and infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
如今，市面上有很多红光设备，但 Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着它们结合使用特定波长的红光、近红外光和红外光来触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, usually for about 10 to 20 minutes per session, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周使用 Joovv 全身面板大约三到四次，通常每次大约 10 到 20 分钟，并且我在家和旅行时都使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you would like to try Joovv, they're offering up to $400 off select products for listeners of this podcast.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，他们将为该播客的听众提供精选产品高达 400 美元的折扣。
To learn more, visit Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
要了解更多信息，请访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Again, that's J-O-O-V-V .com/huberman.
同样，这是 J-O-O-V-V .com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.
今天的节目也是由 Helix Sleep 为我们带来的。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on this and on other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
现在，我之前曾多次在这个播客和其他播客上谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
When we aren't getting great sleep on a consistent basis, everything suffers.
当我们不能持续获得良好的睡眠时，一切都会受到影响。
And when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, physical health, and performance in all endeavors improve markedly.
当我们睡眠充足且良好时，我们的心理健康、身体健康和所有努力的表现都会显着改善。
Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night.
现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。
How soft it is or how firm it is all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.
它的柔软度或硬度都会影响您的舒适度，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。
If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?
如果你访问 Helix 网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，比如你是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？
Maybe you know, maybe you don't.
也许你知道，也许你不知道。
Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?
你晚上容易感到热还是冷？
Things of that sort.
诸如此类的事情。
You answer those questions, and Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
您回答这些问题，Helix 将为您匹配理想的床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the Dusk, D-U-S-K, mattress.
对我来说，这就是 Dusk、D-U-S-K 床垫。
I've been sleeping on a Dusk mattress for more than four years now, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
我已经在 Dusk 床垫上睡了四年多了，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for you.
如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配专为您定制的床垫。
Right now, Helix is giving up to 27% off their entire site.
目前，Helix 整个网站提供高达 27% 的折扣。
Helix has also teamed up with TrueMed, which allows you to use your HSA, FSA dollars to shop Helix's award-winning mattresses.
Helix 还与 TrueMed 合作，允许您使用 HSA、FSA 美元购买 Helix 屡获殊荣的床垫。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 27% off.
再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 27% 的折扣。
I'm going to ask a question that may or may not be possible to answer.
我要问一个可能无法回答的问题。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if anyone could, it would be you, and it's not a test.
但如果有人可以的话，那就是你，而且这不是一个测试。
Here's what I'm thinking.
这就是我的想法。
The relationship between emotions and what we call motor patterns, movement-
情绪与我们所说的运动模式、运动之间的关系
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is obviously very close.
显然非常接近。
Disgust, a recoil.
厌恶，退缩。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll explore awe, anger, et cetera, and then there's this other node, which is language.
我们将探索敬畏、愤怒等，然后还有另一个节点，那就是语言。
So we have emotions, motor, language.
所以我们有情感、运动、语言。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Obviously, those can't be dissociated.
显然，这些是不能割裂开来的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But can we imagine somebody, let's just hypothetical person, who can Keep their body very still while they're angry and be very articulate.
但我们能否想象一个人，让我们假设一个人，在生气时可以保持身体静止，并且非常善于表达。
That includes not moving their hands.
这包括不移动他们的手。
We'd probably think perhaps that person's sociopathic, but that's not the picture I'm trying to paint.
我们可能会认为这个人可能有反社会人格，但这不是我想要描绘的画面。
Then on the other extreme, you can imagine somebody who is very angry and is gesticulating a lot and moving.
然后在另一个极端，你可以想象一个人非常生气，经常打手势并移动。
We can immediately say, "Yeah, that makes sense." And we could do this for any emotion.
我们可以立即说：“是的，这是有道理的。”我们可以为任何情绪这样做。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
So how should we think about emotion as an experience and how it's expressed along these three axes?
那么我们应该如何将情感视为一种体验以及它如何沿着这三个轴表达？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is motor, language, and then the emotion itself.
这是运动、语言，然后是情感本身。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like without conceptualizing that, I, as a true novice of this, this isn't my area of understanding or expertise, I can't really understand what an emotion is.
我觉得在没有概念化的情况下，我作为一个真正的新手，这不是我的理解或专业领域，我无法真正理解什么是情感。
But if I understand how those are linked, maybe that's a portal into that.
但如果我了解它们是如何联系在一起的，也许这就是一个进入其中的门户。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, no, it's a profound question, Andrew, and it's central to our field.
是的，不，这是一个深刻的问题，安德鲁，它是我们领域的核心。
And I appreciate it coming out of your scientific background of studying other mammals and other species.
我很欣赏你研究其他哺乳动物和其他物种的科学背景。
And there are these motor patterns that you see in emotion around the world.
你可以在世界各地的情绪中看到这些运动模式。
When you soothe a child that's crying, you're going to bring it in close and caress and touch and have emotion.
当你安抚哭泣的孩子时，你要把他拉近，爱抚、触摸，并表达情感。
When you're fighting a rival or when you see rotten food, that motor pattern will be there.
当你与对手战斗或看到腐烂的食物时，这种运动模式就会出现。
And that's part of our research, that 75% of that is this motor pattern of facial musculature and body and skeletal muscles and how we respond to the emotional events of life.
这是我们研究的一部分，其中 75% 是面部肌肉组织、身体和骨骼肌的运动模式，以及我们如何应对生活中的情绪事件。
And then we have this massively complicated conceptual system that puts words to experience.
然后我们就有了这个极其复杂的概念系统，可以将文字转化为经验。
And that's mainly what we study in psychological science is just, oh, I'm feeling angry or ashamed or embarrassed or love or compassion.
我们在心理科学研究中主要研究的是，哦，我感到愤怒、羞愧、尴尬、爱或同情。
And we know, and your question points to this, very often they're disconnected.
我们知道，您的问题也表明了这一点，它们通常是断开连接的。
The motor pattern and the language we use, and how I would interpret it in another person.
我们使用的运动模式和语言，以及我如何用另一个人来解释它。
On balance, they correlate point two, so they're just weakly.
总的来说，它们与第二点相关，所以它们的相关性很弱。
They're kind of these streams of behavior that are just part of who we are.
这些行为流是我们的一部分。
Our motor patterns and language.
我们的运动模式和语言。
And there are a lot of ways to think about it.
思考这个问题的方法有很多。
You could think about cultures that value being calm, like a lot of East Asian cultures.
您可以考虑重视冷静的文化，例如许多东亚文化。
Be calm, don't disrupt things, don't blurt out, don't protest.
保持冷静，不要扰乱事情，不要脱口而出，不要抗议。
And you'll see this disconnect.
你会看到这种脱节。
You can think about certain people who just are more authentic, and their motor patterns come out in expressions, and they will tell you how they feel.
你可以想想某些更真实的人，他们的运动模式通过表情表现出来，他们会告诉你他们的感受。
So it's a central problem that we grapple with.
所以这是我们要解决的一个核心问题。
And then I love your third part of this equation of emotion science, which is the feeling, the emotion.
然后我喜欢你的情感科学方程式的第三部分，那就是感觉、情感。
Michael Pollan is right.
迈克尔·波伦是对的。
This new book on consciousness, the conscious feeling of something.
这本关于意识的新书，即对某物的有意识的感觉。
We think we can get to it with words.
我们认为我们可以用言语来解决这个问题。
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
You probably wouldn't either, studying the other species you've studied.
你可能也不会，因为你正在研究你研究过的其他物种。
It's some weird mixture of everything that's happening in your body.
这是你体内发生的一切奇怪的混合体。
And ironically, the emotion or the feeling is still one of the uncharted territories of our field is why, as these complicated motor patterns unfold and words are unfolding and images and memories and visual things that you study, how does that all come together in my feeling of compassion or awe?
具有讽刺意味的是，情感或感觉仍然是我们领域的未知领域之一，这就是为什么当这些复杂的运动模式展开、文字展开以及你研究的图像、记忆和视觉事物时，这一切是如何在我的同情或敬畏感中融合在一起的？
And we barely know.
我们几乎不知道。
We don't know.
我们不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every once in a while, I'll try and think about a concept from way outside of standard science.
每隔一段时间，我就会尝试从标准科学之外的角度思考一个概念。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like the chakras or something.
比如脉轮什么的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's kind of interesting.
这很有趣。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even if one looks at it just purely as a Western scientist, this idea that maybe there is a confluence of nerves and of vasculature and stuff that makes you feel rooted and calm versus up in your head.
即使人们纯粹从西方科学家的角度来看，这种想法可能是神经、脉管系统和其他东西的汇合，让你感到扎根和平静，而不是在你的头脑中。
I've been watching this really interesting Instagram channel.
我一直在观看这个非常有趣的 Instagram 频道。
It's a woman who does voices for cartoons, and she has the most incredible understanding of voice.
这是一位为动画片配音的女性，她对声音有着最不可思议的理解力。
And she's commenting a lot of the time on people in shows that I don't watch, but they have little excerpts of where, I guess there's this doctor on, it's like an "ER" type show.
她经常对我不看的节目中的人发表评论，但他们几乎没有摘录，我猜有这位医生，这就像“急诊室”类型的节目。
It's like a revisiting of the show "ER." But she talks about how, as he's matured from season to season in his role on the show, and he's mentoring, how she literally talks about how his larynx and pharynx, how he's controlling those differently as he matures.
这就像重温电视剧《ER》。但她谈到了他在节目中的角色随着季节的变化而成熟，以及他的指导，她如何真正谈论他的喉部和咽部，以及随着他的成熟，他如何以不同的方式控制这些。
And then when he has a breakdown, how the voice moves further up into his head and what that's about.
然后当他崩溃时，那个声音如何进一步进入他的脑海以及那是什么意思。
And so I was thinking about this, I'm like, here's somebody that's a very unique window into all of this, but we sort of know this intuitively.
所以我在想这个，我想，这个人是了解这一切的一个非常独特的窗口，但我们直观地知道这一点。
When we're excited, there's this kind of rising from the bottom.
当我们兴奋的时候，就会有一种从谷底上升的感觉。
And when we're relaxed, everything just kind of sinks down to the diaphragmatic breathing and things.
当我们放松时，一切都会归结为横膈膜呼吸之类的东西。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a scientist who studies emotion, how do you sort of decide which lens to look at things through?
作为一名研究情感的科学家，您如何决定通过哪个镜头来看待事物？
Because a lot of the stuff I'm talking about might sound a little esoteric, but it's actually the stuff that's easiest to measure.
因为我谈论的很多东西可能听起来有点深奥，但实际上是最容易测量的东西。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Presumably, you can quantitatively measure breaths per minute when somebody's looking at an awe-inspiring image versus a trivial image.
据推测，当某人观看令人惊叹的图像与普通图像时，您可以定量测量每分钟的呼吸次数。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I love your reference to chakras and the older I get, I've been doing emotion science for 34 years or 5 years.
我喜欢你提到的脉轮，随着年龄的增长，我从事情感科学已经有 34 年或 5 年了。
It's good to think about the other traditions.
考虑一下其他传统是件好事。
We wouldn't have thought about the breath, the power of the breath, without the contemplative meditation traditions that you've imparted and Richie Davidson and others.
如果没有你和里奇·戴维森等人传授的沉思冥想传统，我们就不会思考呼吸、呼吸的力量。
And lo and behold, the breath Deep exhalation activates the vagus nerve, calms us down.
你瞧，深呼气激活迷走神经，让我们平静下来。
That activation of the vagus nerve gives people a sense of warmth in your chest, which kind of sounds like the heart chakra and all the speculation around how your soul is in your heart.
迷走神经的激活给人一种胸部温暖的感觉，这听起来有点像心轮以及所有关于你的灵魂在你心中的猜测。
Well, there's a neurophysiological correlate of that.
嗯，这与神经生理学相关。
I love the paintings of Alex Grey, the psychedelic artist.
我喜欢迷幻艺术家亚历克斯·格雷的画作。
If you want an image of what our neurophysiology is as it synchronizes in love, it's pretty close, or it's interesting, right?
如果你想了解我们的神经生理学在爱情中同步的情况，它非常接近，或者很有趣，对吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So it's good to find inspiration in that.
所以从中找到灵感是件好事。
One of the great things about the science of emotion, and I brought these tools into the study of awe, which is we have learned a lot about how to measure emotion.
情感科学的伟大之处之一，我将这些工具带入敬畏的研究中，这就是我们学到了很多关于如何衡量情感的知识。
You can measure it with facial muscles and gaze patterns and coloration of the face and breath patterns and different measures of vagal tone and immune system activation and activation in the gut and, of course, brain activation and the voice, which is one of my favorite modalities.
您可以通过面部肌肉和凝视模式以及面部颜色和呼吸模式以及迷走神经张力和免疫系统激活和肠道激活的不同测量方法来测量它，当然还有大脑激活和声音，这是我最喜欢的方式之一。
I learned this, in some sense, from Darwin.
从某种意义上说，我是从达尔文那里学到这一点的。
Darwin's "Expression of Emotion in Man and Animals" is, in my view, and we're just publishing a paper on this, on everything that he said about human emotion.
在我看来，达尔文的《人和动物的情感表达》是关于这一点的，关于他所说的关于人类情感的一切，我们刚刚发表了一篇论文。
Fifty-three emotions annotated with eight modalities of expressive behavior.
五十三种情绪由八种表达行为方式注释。
I wrote it with Darwin scholar Frank Sulloway, who knows everything about Darwin.
我和达尔文学者弗兰克·苏洛威（Frank Sulloway）一起写了这本书，他对达尔文了如指掌。
And I choose how to study an emotion based on what's happening out in our lives, in the phenomena out there, right?
我选择如何根据我们生活中发生的事情和现象来研究情绪，对吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So if you're studying awe, you should get people around big trees or in musical concerts or in museums, right?
因此，如果你正在研究敬畏，你应该让人们围着大树、音乐会或博物馆，对吗？
I studied embarrassment early in my career, and modesty, and I'm like, "I got to study young men teasing each other," because we embarrass each other intentionally.
我在职业生涯早期研究了尴尬和谦虚，我想，“我必须研究互相取笑的年轻人”，因为我们故意让对方难堪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh my goodness.
天哪。
We have to hear about that-
我们必须听到这个消息——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that work again.
再次工作。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's become very relevant nowadays because of the-
如今它变得非常重要，因为-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yes, it has
是的，它有
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'll just call it what it is.
我就这么称呼它吧。
It's not dreaded.
这并不可怕。
It's the dreadful manosphere-
这是可怕的马诺圈——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which people use very broadly, but I think now it's being allocated to the worst of the worst.
人们使用得非常广泛，但我认为现在它被分配给最糟糕的人。
But then there is this phenomenon among males where they'll rib each other and-
但雄性之间存在一种现象，他们会互相取笑，然后——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and there's a healthy version-
还有一个健康版本-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Totally
完全
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of males interacting, too, right?
男性也有互动，对吗？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we'll get back to that.
所以我们会回到这个话题。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I base it on what's the phenomenon of interest, right?
我基于感兴趣的现象是什么，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
That speaks to humanity, and then what are our best measures that we can go after it?
这与人性有关，那么我们可以采取哪些最佳措施来实现这一目标呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These days, if you want to measure awe, what's your favorite awe stimulus?
如今，如果你想衡量敬畏，你最喜欢的敬畏刺激是什么？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
First up, and thank you for asking about measurement.
首先，感谢您询问有关测量的问题。
It's interesting, people are like, "Oh, you can't study awe.
有趣的是，人们会说，“哦，你无法学习敬畏。
You don't know how to measure it.
你不知道如何衡量它。
It's ineffable.
真是难以言喻。
It's mysterious.
这很神秘。
It's spiritual." We can measure awe really well.
这是精神上的。”我们可以很好地衡量敬畏。
The vocalization, "Whoa," the facial expression, activation, parts of the brain are deactivated, vagal tone.
发声，“哇”，面部表情，激活，部分大脑被停用，迷走神经张力。
The goosebumps is a good part of the awe response.
起鸡皮疙瘩是敬畏反应的重要组成部分。
As we started to study awe, we did two things, and one is typical science, which is get your most cool awe videos, show them to people.
当我们开始研究敬畏时，我们做了两件事，一是典型的科学，那就是制作最酷的敬畏视频，向人们展示它们。
And I had some missteps in this science.
我在这门科学上犯了一些错误。
I had a woman who was an honor student at Berkeley who was coming back from Burning Man, and she's like, "I'm going to show engineers fractal imagery." And the engineers are like, "Who is this woman?"
我有一位女士，她是伯克利的优等生，她刚从火人节回来，她说，“我要向工程师展示分形图像。”工程师们会问，“这个女人是谁？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've never been to Burning Man, but there's the post-Burning Man glow that people come back with that is, for understandable reasons, hard for most people to enter with them.
我从未去过火人节，但人们回来时会感受到火人节后的光芒，出于可以理解的原因，大多数人很难与他们一起进入。
It's like a kid coming back from summer camp.
就像一个从夏令营回来的孩子。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
There's great visual imagery.
有很棒的视觉图像。
BBC Earth is awesome.
BBC 地球太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And it makes people feel awe.
并且让人心生敬畏。
Slow Motion Guys, I don't know if you know these guys.
慢动作的朋友们，我不知道你们是否认识这些人。
They film wild things in slow motion, like dropping a wine glass, and it's this spectacular photography and just You're like...
他们以慢动作拍摄狂野的事物，比如掉落酒杯，这是一张壮观的摄影作品，你就像……
So it opens you up to-
所以它让你敞开心扉——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cool.
酷。
We'll put a link to that.
我们将放置一个链接。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love super slow-mo.
我喜欢超级慢动作。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And that fits our definition, which is you don't understand what's happening.
这符合我们的定义，即你不明白发生了什么。
It's vast.
它是广阔的。
It's mysterious.
这很神秘。
But what I'm really proud of, Andrew, is the work we did out in the field, right?
但安德鲁，我真正感到自豪的是我们在该领域所做的工作，对吗？
So one of our first studies on the Berkeley campus that you frequented and got your master's degree at and headed into neuroscience was in our paleontology museum.
因此，您经常光顾并获得硕士学位并进入神经科学领域的伯克利校园的第一个研究项目就是在我们的古生物学博物馆。
There's a replica of a T-rex skeleton.
这里有一个霸王龙骨架的复制品。
When I was five years old and I learned about dinosaurs, it changed my life.
当我五岁的时候，我了解了恐龙，它改变了我的生活。
It was just in the LA Natural History Museum, like, "Wow!" So we studied people standing near the T-rex skeleton, and they became expansive and collective.
那是在洛杉矶自然历史博物馆，就像，“哇！”所以我们研究了站在霸王龙骨架附近的人，他们变得扩张和集体。
We studied people near giant eucalyptus trees.
我们研究了巨大桉树附近的人们。
We studied people at Yosemite.
我们研究了约塞米蒂国家公园的人。
Yang Bai, a student in my lab, stopped hundreds of travelers from all over the world right when you see Yosemite.
我实验室的学生白杨在看到优胜美地时就拦住了来自世界各地的数百名旅行者。
And she said, "How do you feel about yourself right now?" And they're like, "I feel small and quiet, but part of something really large," right?
她说：“你现在对自己感觉如何？”他们会说，“我感觉自己渺小而安静，但却是某个巨大事物的一部分，”对吗？
Subsequent to that, there are scientists who are studying mosh pits at concerts and surfers and rock climb- backpackers.
随后，科学家们开始研究音乐会、冲浪者和攀岩背包客的狂欢。
One of my favorite studies later with Stacy Baer, who's a veteran, who's an amazing human being, an awe pioneer.
后来我最喜欢的研究之一是史黛西·贝尔（Stacy Baer），她是一位退伍军人，是一位了不起的人，一位令人敬畏的先驱。
We studied people rafting down the American River, veterans just like, "Whoa." We've studied people in art museums, Carnegie Hall.
我们研究了沿着美国河漂流的人，退伍军人都会说“哇”。我们研究了艺术博物馆、卡内基音乐厅的人们。
One of the joys is when science, just in the spirit of your questions, it's like, well, what should I really do here, right?
乐趣之一是当科学本着你的问题的精神时，就像，好吧，我在这里真正应该做什么，对吗？
I could stay in the lab, but it's like, no, we got to go do stuff.
我可以留在实验室，但就像，不，我们必须去做一些事情。
My dream study was to have a participant come in And engage a conversation, the other participant is Shaquille O'Neal.
我梦想的研究是让一个参与者进来并进行对话，另一个参与者是沙奎尔·奥尼尔。
Right?
正确的？
And it's like 7'2", 350 pounds.
身高大约 7 英尺 2 英寸，体重 350 磅。
You'd be like, "Whoa." But couldn't do that.
你会说，“哇。”但不能那样做。
So, it's been fun.
所以，这很有趣。
It's been a wild ride.
这是一次疯狂的旅程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so many thoughts.
还有这么多的想法。
First one, I'm lucky I didn't rotate through your lab because I would've never become a neuroscientist, but I'm unlucky-
第一个，我很幸运我没有在你们的实验室轮换，因为我永远不会成为一名神经科学家，但我很不幸-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
We're glad you missed that opportunity
我们很高兴您错过了这个机会
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm unlucky because it would've been so much fun too, because while I loved the wet lab as they call it, getting into these experiments would just be incredible.
但我很不幸，因为它也会非常有趣，因为虽然我喜欢他们所说的湿实验室，但参与这些实验将是令人难以置信的。
Couple things.
夫妇的事情。
The Shaquille O'Neal thing.
沙奎尔·奥尼尔的事。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think we're all moved by these, I guess they used to call them Make-A-Wish foundation things, where a kid who sadly is dying gets some last wish.
我想我们都被这些感动了，我猜他们曾经把它们称为“许愿基金会”，让一个悲伤地死去的孩子得到一些最后的愿望。
And it's a tragic circumstance, but then you get to observe these kids and-
这是一个悲惨的情况，但你可以观察这些孩子，然后——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Oh, man
哦，伙计
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
most importantly, they get to experience something that they never could have imagined happening.
最重要的是，他们能够体验到一些他们从未想象过的事情。
Like-
就像-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a Shaquille O'Neal walking in.
沙奎尔·奥尼尔走进来。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like that's probably happened or something.
我觉得这可能发生过或者发生过什么。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think what we're witnessing in those moments has to be awe.
我认为我们在那些时刻所目睹的必须令人敬畏。
They can't believe that this human or this event, whatever it is that they wish for, is happening there.
他们无法相信这个人或这个事件，无论他们想要什么，都发生在那里。
And so it sort of layers upon layers of...
所以它是一层又一层的……
There's like a grief component for those of us watching.
对于我们这些观看的人来说，这就像悲伤的成分。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Well put.
说得好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But a huge aspect of just how touching it is, is the fact that for those moments, they're not thinking about their mortality.
但这令人感动的一个重要方面是，在那些时刻，他们没有考虑自己的死亡。
And no-
并且不-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kid should have to think about their mortality, right?
孩子应该考虑一下自己的死亡率，对吗？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, even as I talk about it, it's like-
我的意思是，即使当我谈论它时，它就像-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, it's profound
是的，很深奥
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yeah, it's like there's an overwhelming in the opposite direction, right?
是啊，好像有一股相反方向的压倒性力量，对吧？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a particularly complicated and interesting case where you've got two things colliding, right?
这是一个特别复杂和有趣的案例，两个事物发生碰撞，对吗？
Because I feel like awe is so life-affirming.
因为我觉得敬畏是对生命的肯定。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And anyway, that's just an observation, but horizons are something that have fascinated me for a long time-
无论如何，这只是一个观察，但地平线是让我着迷很长一段时间的东西——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a vision scientist because-
作为一名视觉科学家，因为——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when we see a horizon, our visual angle widens.
当我们看到地平线时，我们的视角就会变宽。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
That's cool.
太酷了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We become more parasympathetic.
我们变得更加副交感神经。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a whole-
有一个整体——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
coming off the accelerator of the sympathetic nervous system.
脱离交感神经系统的加速器。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I didn't know that.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we relax by virtue of coming off the focusing component.
因此，我们通过脱离聚焦组件来放松。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When we focus in through a tunnel, it's quite the opposite.
当我们通过隧道聚焦时，情况恰恰相反。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Nice.
不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I feel like there's something unique to this experience of being in a tunnel, thinking about Yosemite, or in a bunch of trees-
但我觉得这种在隧道中思考优胜美地或在树林中的体验有一些独特之处——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or hike, and then the horizon opens up.
或者徒步旅行，然后地平线就会开阔。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's this transformation-
有这样的转变——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of visual space, and those moments, at least for me, are the moments.
视觉空间，而那些时刻，至少对我来说，就是时刻。
So I mean, I can hike along a ridge line for a long time and be like, "This is amazing," but there's something distinctly-
所以我的意思是，我可以沿着山脊线徒步很长一段时间，然后说，“这太棒了”，但有一些明显的东西——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
How?
怎么办？
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
bigger in the experience of going from confinement-
出狱后的经历更大——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to openness.
到开放性。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It could be brought to the lab, but do you think that's what's going on in Yosemite or the Grand Canyon, right?
它可以被带到实验室，但你认为这就是优胜美地或大峡谷正在发生的事情，对吧？
Do people who work in Yosemite and the Grand Canyon, do they attenuate?
在优胜美地和大峡谷工作的人会衰减吗？
They're like, "Oh, yeah, like another horizon."
他们就像，“哦，是的，就像另一个地平线。”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm working with rangers right now, and I think the big expansive forms of awe that those places provide is attenuated, but they're still finding it in subtler ways.
我现在正在与护林员一起工作，我认为这些地方所提供的广泛的敬畏感已经减弱，但他们仍然以更微妙的方式发现它。
Yeah, that's really interesting, and it's as interesting as I've been privileged to know Pete Docter at Pixar for 15 years and worked on some of his films, "Inside Out" and "Inside Out 2" and "Soul."
是的，这真的很有趣，而且很有趣，因为我有幸在皮克斯认识皮特·道格特 15 年，并参与了他的一些电影，《头脑特工队》、《头脑特工队 2》和《灵魂》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you played a big role in that.
是的，你在其中发挥了很大的作用。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, and through the science of emotion.
是的，通过情感科学。
And in one of our conversations I was like, "Tell me about some techniques for producing awe in children's films, animated films." And he described first just what you said, the film is narrow, like a certain kind of attention, sort of sympathetic, fearful, checking things, and then it comes, suddenly you see the vastness of something.
在我们的一次谈话中，我说，“告诉我一些在儿童电影、动画电影中产生敬畏的技巧。”他首先描述了你所说的，这部电影是狭窄的，就像某种关注，某种同情，恐惧，检查事物，然后它来了，突然你看到了某种东西的广阔。
And it's true, it is awe-inspiring.
这是真的，这是令人敬畏的。
When you think about it neuroscientifically as a very basic form of awe is shifting from small to vast in terms of vision and perception, and then it becomes metaphorical.
当你从神经科学的角度思考它时，敬畏的一种非常基本的形式正在从视觉和感知方面从小到大转变，然后它就变成了隐喻。
Right?
对吗？
It's like, God, I'm thinking about...
就好像，天啊，我在想……
I love one of the wonders of life that makes us feel awe is big ideas and epiphanies.
我喜欢让我们感到敬畏的生活奇迹之一，那就是伟大的想法和顿悟。
And very often people will be like, "God, I've been working so hard at this.
人们常常会说：“天哪，我在这方面已经非常努力了。
I'm working on a paper, something in technology or some part of my life." And then you suddenly realize it's part of something large, right?
我正在写一篇论文、一些技术领域的东西或者我生活的一部分。”然后你突然意识到这是某件大事的一部分，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
One of the musicians that I interviewed, Yumi Kendall, in the book, in the chapter on musical awe, she's a cellist for the Philadelphia Symphony, said, "I practice for five hours a day.
我采访的一位音乐家 Yumi Kendall 在书中关于音乐敬畏的章节中，她是费城交响乐团的大提琴手，她说：“我每天练习五个小时。
It's hard, man.
这很难，伙计。
And it's small and narrow, and where's my finger?
而且它又小又窄，我的手指在哪里？
And then when I'm on stage, and I feel the notes go out into this space," the vastness you're talking about, "I feel like I'm part of history." Right?
然后当我在舞台上时，我感觉音符进入了这个空间，”你所说的广阔，“我觉得我是历史的一部分。”对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
"And I tear up and cry." You got to send me those papers, Andrew, because I think it's fundamental, which is from small to vast.
“我流泪了。”安德鲁，你必须把这些论文寄给我，因为我认为这是从小到大的基础。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And in fact, we did this really cool study with Virginia Sturm at UC San Francisco, brain health.
事实上，我们与加州大学旧金山分校的弗吉尼亚·斯特姆 (Virginia Sturm) 一起做了一项非常酷的研究，研究大脑健康。
Old people go out on an awe walk once a week for eight weeks, 75 years old or older, and all we ask them to do is to go from small to vast in how they looked at things.
75 岁或以上的老年人，每周都会出去一次令人敬畏的散步，持续八周，我们要求他们做的就是从小到大看待事物的方式。
Look at a tree, look at a leaf, go out to the pattern of leaves.
看一棵树，看一片叶子，出去看看叶子的图案。
It brought them awe, and less physical pain over eight weeks.
这给他们带来了敬畏，并在八周内减少了身体上的疼痛。
And now we're finding six years later, better brain health.
六年后，我们发现大脑健康状况有所改善。
Right?
对吗？
So small to vast is a big part of it.
从小到大是其中很大一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm struck by the awe walk, and I know this comes up in your book and elsewhere, and you've done a lot of research on this.
我对这种敬畏的行走感到震惊，我知道这在你的书和其他地方出现过，而且你对此做了很多研究。
For those listening, what would an awe walk look like, and what are some of the health benefits?
对于那些倾听的人来说，敬畏步行会是什么样子，对健康有哪些好处？
You just mentioned a few that have been observed both in the short and the long term.
您刚才提到了一些短期和长期观察到的情况。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
We are a walking species.
我们是行走的物种。
It is just in our DNA to walk.
行走是我们的基因。
We meandered from Africa to all the continents.
我们从非洲蜿蜒到各大洲。
A lot of people, Rebecca Solnit writes about this, walking is almost sacred.
丽贝卡·索尔尼特 (Rebecca Solnit) 写道，很多人认为步行几乎是神圣的。
It's a kind of consciousness Like you're saying, like, "Whoa, I'm picking up a vaster view of what's around me." And I decided to just create this awe walk, and I did it for a meditation group or a Mindful Magazine.
这是一种意识，就像你说的，“哇，我对周围的事物有了更广阔的视野。”我决定创造这个令人敬畏的步行，我是为冥想小组或正念杂志做的。
You just slow down.
你只要慢下来。
A lot of people walk.
很多人步行。
Tens of millions of people have regular walks in the United States.
在美国，有数以千万计的人定期散步。
It's good for you.
这对你有好处。
So we just add awe.
所以我们只是添加敬畏。
On your regular walk once a week in our study, go somewhere you wouldn't ordinarily go.
每周一次在我们的书房里定期散步，去一些你通常不会去的地方。
Go someplace that may surprise you.
去一个可能让你惊讶的地方。
I walk around Berkeley a lot, and it's like, well, I'm going to go past the little playground that my daughters played at when they were young and just feel that, Codornices Park.
我经常在伯克利周围散步，就像，好吧，我会经过我女儿们小时候玩过的小操场，并感受到它，科多尼斯公园。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
With the rock slide and the tunnel.
随着岩石滑坡和隧道。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that place.
我喜欢那个地方。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Near the Rose Garden.
玫瑰园附近。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's a secret...
还有一个秘密...
Should we give this away?
我们应该放弃这个吗？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a secret hiking trail.
有一条秘密的远足小径。
It's actually through a private property's backyard.
它实际上是穿过私人住宅的后院。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they allow you to go through if you are quiet and you pick up your trash.
如果您保持安静并捡起垃圾，它们就会允许您通过。
And there's an incredible waterfall and place to stand at the top.
还有一个令人难以置信的瀑布和站在顶部的地方。
There's a beam there.
那里有一根横梁。
You've been there, I'm sure.
我确信你去过那里。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where you can look out over this, what is kind of like a trench of tree...
从哪里可以看到这个，有点像树沟……
It's a total transformation of one space to the next.
这是一个空间到另一个空间的彻底转变。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you look for it properly, I'm sure now it's on the internet.
如果你仔细查找的话，我确信它现在就在互联网上。
It's in swinging gates, not locked, and-
它在旋转门里，没有锁，而且——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
So hard to find
这么难找
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and there's a little monastery maybe nearby.
附近也许有一座小修道院。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you might see me.
你可能会看到我。
A couple of years ago, you would've seen me and my dog, but you might see me eating a slice of pizza from The Cheese Board sitting on that log.
几年前，你可能会看到我和我的狗，但你可能会看到我坐在那根木头上吃奶酪板的一片披萨。
I spent a lot of time there.
我在那里度过了很多时间。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I'm getting goosebumps, Henry.
我起鸡皮疙瘩了，亨利。
That is just pure Berkeley.
这就是纯粹的伯克利。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
So in this study, awe walk, go on your walk, find a place that's going to be a little surprising, or it may make you feel a little bit of childlike wonder.
所以在这项研究中，敬畏行走，继续行走，找到一个会有点令人惊讶的地方，或者它可能会让你感到一点孩子般的惊奇。
And it's interesting, no one's asked me this question, your observation about small to vast, and we just said, "Slow down, deepen your breathing, sync it up with your walking," which you've studied empirically, the breath, "and then go from small to vast." Look at clouds.
有趣的是，没有人问我这个问题，你对小到大的观察，我们只是说，“放慢速度，加深你的呼吸，与你的行走同步”，你已经凭经验研究过呼吸，“然后从小到大。”看云。
Look at the whole pattern of clouds.
看看云的整个图案。
Just slow it down.
放慢速度吧。
Look at trees.
看看树木。
Look at the light on the trees, and look at points of light, and then patterns of light.
观察树木上的光，观察光点，然后观察光的图案。
I love walking past playgrounds.
我喜欢走过操场。
It's one of my favorite sources of awe.
这是我最喜欢的敬畏之源之一。
Listen to one laugh, and then listen to the whole symphony of laughter of kids.
听一笑，再听一曲孩子们笑声的交响曲。
That's all.
仅此而已。
And they walk through.
他们走过。
They do that for half an hour.
他们这样做了半个小时。
And what we find in that study is they become more vast in their consciousness.
我们在这项研究中发现，他们的意识变得更加广阔。
They're more aware in the photographs that they provided of what's around them.
他们在提供的照片中更加了解周围的事物。
They feel more kindness over the eight weeks.
在这八周里，他们感受到了更多的善意。
They feel more awe over an eight-week period.
在八周的时间里，他们感到更加敬畏。
It rises.
它上升了。
And then the finding that was important for people who are elderly is less physical pain.
对老年人来说重要的发现是减少身体疼痛。
Your body starts to ache when you're 75 or earlier, and awe, I think through the inflammation process, and reducing it, caused less pain.
当你75岁或更早的时候，你的身体就开始疼痛，我认为通过炎症过程并减少炎症过程，可以减轻疼痛。
This dovetails with other health benefits.
这与其他健康益处相吻合。
Awe is good for reduced inflammation, elevated vagal tone, reduced long COVID symptoms.
敬畏有利于减少炎症、提高迷走神经张力、减少长期新冠症状。
We have people with long COVID, just a minute of awe a day reduced long COVID symptoms.
我们有长期感染新冠病毒的人，每天只要敬畏一分钟，就可以减少长期新冠病毒的症状。
It's good news.
这是个好消息。
And there's so much science on it that now, I think medical doctors are starting to think, "I'm going to prescribe nature.
现在有如此多的科学依据，我认为医生们开始思考，“我要开自然处方。
I'll prescribe music through awe as a mechanism."
我将通过敬畏作为一种机制来规定音乐。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a lot of thoughts about this going from small to large.
从小到大，我有很多想法。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, I'd love to hear them.
是的，我很想听听他们的声音。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But before I do-
但在我这样做之前——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
You've asked me twice
你已经问过我两次了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I have another question.
我还有一个问题。
I have another question.
我还有一个问题。
I think for a lot of people, including myself, we assume that awe is this kind of forgetting of ourself.
我认为对于很多人来说，包括我自己，我们都认为敬畏就是这种忘记自己的行为。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like getting outside of ourselves.
就像走出我们自己一样。
But I'm starting to think, based on the way you're describing it, that it's about being tethered to the larger picture.
但根据你描述的方式，我开始认为这是与更大的图景联系在一起的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That it's not a...
原来这不是一个...
Yes, it's getting out of our heads, quote unquote, but it's actually very much an embodied experience.
是的，它已经从我们的脑海中消失了，但它实际上是一种具体的体验。
It's almost full body.
几乎是全身了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so now I'll answer your question.
现在我来回答你的问题。
This is usually where people start putting in the comments, like, "You talk too much.
人们通常会从这里开始发表评论，比如“你说得太多了。
Let your guest talk." But I'm trying, folks.
让你的客人说话。”但是我正在努力，伙计们。
He asked me.
他问我。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Twice.
两次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you asked me a question, I'm going to answer it.
所以你问了我一个问题，我就回答一下。
Anyone that knows me, if I...
任何认识我的人，如果我...
Okay, so I've thought about this relationship between visual aperture and time perception for a long time.
好吧，我已经思考了视觉孔径和时间感知之间的关系很长一段时间了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Cool.
酷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is my deepest obsession, and it gets a little bit into the book I'm writing, but it's probably reserved for after there's some experiments.
这是我最深的痴迷，它在我正在写的书中有所体现，但它可能会在进行一些实验之后保留。
And to the fear of my podcast crew, I actually am considering going back into the lab to do this experiment.
令我的播客团队担心的是，我实际上正在考虑回到实验室做这个实验。
So what do we know for certain?
那么我们可以确定什么？
We know for certain that when your visual aperture is small, like looking through a soda straw view or watchmaker-type aperture, or you're in a, let's just say, it could be a pleasant or unpleasant text communication that's going back and forth, that your perception of time is different.
我们确信，当您的视觉光圈很小时，例如通过苏打水吸管视图或钟表匠式光圈观看，或者您处于，可以说，可能是令人愉快或不愉快的来回文本通信中，您对时间的感知是不同的。
You're fine slicing.
你切的真好
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Nice.
不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those dot, dot, dots coming through-
那些点、点、点穿过——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, it's just like this
是的，就是这样
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it feels like an eternity.
感觉就像是永恒。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's bidirectional with your, let's just call it, level of alertness.
它与你的警觉程度（我们称之为警觉程度）是双向的。
It doesn't even have to be stress, but sympathetic nervous system, right?
甚至不一定是压力，而是交感神经系统，对吧？
So if I'm in line at the store and I have some place to be, my visual aperture shrinks, and then it feels like the person in front of me is taking forever.
因此，如果我在商店排队并且有地方可去，我的视野就会缩小，然后感觉前面的人花了很长时间。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, because you're in these little micro-
是的，因为你在这些小微型中
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I'm relaxed, it feels like I'm slicing time differently.
当我放松的时候，感觉就像我在以不同的方式切割时间。
Okay, when we see a horizon and our aperture opens up, as I mentioned, then we relax.
好吧，正如我提到的，当我们看到地平线并且光圈打开时，我们就会放松。
But we also are taking Fewer time snapshots.
但我们也正在减少拍摄时间快照。
So people might think, oh, fewer, you're in slow motion because there were...
所以人们可能会想，哦，更少，你在慢动作，因为有......
No. It's the opposite.
不，恰恰相反。
Slow motion is high frame rate.
慢动作是高帧速率。
This thing about video where you can catch slow motion, you need a high frame rate.
对于可以捕捉慢动作的视频，您需要高帧速率。
This is why when people experience a car crash, they'll often say that things felt like they were slowing down.
这就是为什么当人们经历车祸时，他们经常会说事情感觉好像变慢了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Totally expand.
彻底展开。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More snapshots.
更多快照。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
That's cool.
太酷了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when I think about this relationship between visual aperture and time, and it also exists in the auditory domain.
所以当我思考视觉孔径和时间之间的这种关系时，它也存在于听觉领域。
So if I'm listening to a specific conversation at a party, I'm fine-slicing my perception of auditory space.
因此，如果我在聚会上聆听特定的对话，我就会精细地分割我对听觉空间的感知。
Our friend Irv Hafner taught me this.
我们的朋友 Irv Hafner 教了我这一点。
When I listen to everything and I take it in as a whole, it's a more relaxed experience.
当我聆听所有内容并将其作为一个整体时，这是一种更轻松的体验。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But okay.
但好吧。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Cool.
酷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So a long time ago, because I was experiencing stress, I started reading about meditation types and different things, and I came up with this meditation.
很久以前，因为我承受着压力，我开始阅读有关冥想类型和不同事物的内容，然后我想出了这种冥想。
But it's not a meditation at all, and some of my listeners will be familiar with it.
但这根本不是冥想，我的一些听众会熟悉它。
I decided to call it, for lack of a better term, space-time bridging.
由于缺乏更好的术语，我决定将其称为时空桥接。
The meditation's very simple.
冥想非常简单。
You close your eyes and you do three breaths, thinking about your skin inward, so interoception.
你闭上眼睛，呼吸三下，向内思考你的皮肤，这样内感受。
You open your eyes and you look at your hand.
你睁开眼睛，看着你的手。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Nice.
不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You take three breaths.
你呼吸三个呼吸。
But you're creating a visual tether between you and your hand.
但你在你和你的手之间建立了一种视觉束缚。
Then you look some distance, maybe eight or 10 feet away.
然后你看一段距离，也许八英尺或十英尺远。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You do the same, then you find a horizon, and then you think about the sort of pale blue dot phenomenon.
你也这样做，然后你找到了地平线，然后你想到了那种淡蓝点现象。
Like you're just on a planet, it's floating in space, and every single one of these things is a form of meditation or a meme or whatever.
就像你在一个星球上一样，它漂浮在太空中，这些东西中的每一个都是冥想或模因或其他形式的一种形式。
And then you get right back to yourself.
然后你就回到自己身边。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so the idea here is that it helped me a lot because I noticed that meditations where I was completely focused inward made me more focused inward.
所以这里的想法是它对我帮助很大，因为我注意到我完全专注于内心的冥想让我更加专注于内心。
Going for a run, I could get outside my head, and I started to play with the idea that maybe it's not about having a small aperture or a big aperture per se.
去跑步时，我可以摆脱自己的思维，然后我开始考虑这样一个想法：也许这与小光圈或大光圈本身无关。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's the, like every great thing in biology or psychology, it's the process.
但就像生物学或心理学中所有伟大的事物一样，这就是过程。
It's not an event.
这不是一个事件。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the process of going from one aperture to the next.
这是从一个光圈转到下一个光圈的过程。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
That's cool.
太酷了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's kind of what life is about.
这就是生活的意义。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like when this too shall pass is really about taking a broader time snapshot.
就像这一切何时过去一样，实际上是要拍摄更广泛的时间快照。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like eventually this thing-
就像最终这件事一样——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Which is visual as well.
这也是视觉上的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is visual.
这是视觉上的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so this is a long answer to your question, but-
所以这是对你问题的一个很长的答案，但是-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
No, it's really interesting
不，这真的很有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this is why it's so important for me to see a horizon if I can in the morning.
这就是为什么如果可以的话，早上看到地平线对我来说如此重要。
But it's also very important to go indoors and just focus on what I'm working on.
但回到室内并专注于我正在做的事情也非常重要。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There is no place or event in a day or in life that's actually the right way to live.
一天或一生中，没有任何地方或事件是真正正确的生活方式。
You can go to Big Sur, and if you're lucky enough to go to Esalen, you're like, "This is it." But it's only it because you came from your office, in my opinion.
你可以去大苏尔，如果你足够幸运去伊莎伦，你会说，“就是这里了。”但在我看来，这只是因为你来自办公室。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you go back again.
然后你再回去。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You figure this out.
你弄清楚这一点。
The title of this paper, which you're the senior author, is "A Balanced Mind: Awe Fosters Equanimity via Temporal Distancing."
您是这篇论文的资深作者，其标题是“平衡的心灵：敬畏通过时间距离促进平静”。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No, it's-
不，这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's about time-
所以是时候了——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
not about space.
与空间无关。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
It is.
是的。
That's fascinating.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So that's how I think about this.
这就是我的想法。
Now, maybe you can tell us about this paper, because I'm getting embarrassed that I've been going way too long.
现在，也许你可以给我们介绍一下这篇论文，因为我已经为自己写得太久而感到尴尬了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
This is why we're in conversation, Andrew, which is you've studied the visual system, and we need more of that knowledge in the science of awe.
这就是我们谈话的原因，安德鲁，你已经研究了视觉系统，我们需要更多关于敬畏科学的知识。
And I will just make one parenthetical note, which is I was interviewing Matias Tarnopolsky, who was at Berkeley and then went to the Philadelphia Symphony and was a music director there.
我只想做一个附加注释，那就是我正在采访马蒂亚斯·塔尔诺波尔斯基（Matias Tarnopolsky），他在伯克利，然后去了费城交响乐团，并在那里担任音乐总监。
And he studies the great, and he's a conductor of symphonies.
他研究伟大的事物，并且是一位交响乐指挥。
And I was like, music's hard to understand scientifically.
我当时想，音乐很难用科学来理解。
It is complicated.
这很复杂。
I was like, "Why awe and music?
我当时想，“为什么要敬畏和音乐？
Why do we cry?
我们为什么哭泣？
Why do we get goosebumps?
为什么我们会起鸡皮疙瘩？
I mean, profound." And he's like, "Time."
我的意思是，深刻。”他说：“时间到了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
It's all about what it does to our sense of time, and so I think there's a hypothesis there to explore.
这完全取决于它对我们的时间感的影响，所以我认为有一个假设需要探索。
What awe does to the self, and I'm putting together a couple of your comments is, and Jane Goodall got it most right, and it's so great to study things with science, and then you see someone you really revere say something.
敬畏对自我有什么影响，我把你们的一些评论放在一起，简·古道尔说得最对，用科学来研究事物真是太棒了，然后你看到你真正尊敬的人说了一些话。
And she felt that chimpanzees feel awe.
她觉得黑猩猩也会感到敬畏。
I do too-
我也一样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
...
...
believe that.
相信这一点。
So it's a controversial issue.
所以这是一个有争议的问题。
Chimps show, and Frans de Waal alerted me to this, who recently passed away, and I just want to pay reverence to him or homage to him.
黑猩猩表演，弗兰斯·德瓦尔提醒我这一点，他最近去世了，我只是想向他表示敬意或致敬。
A great primatologist.
一位伟大的灵长类动物学家。
So he said, "You got to look at Jane Goodall and writing about chimps and the waterfall display they show when they are around vast nature." They sit quietly around rivers, like that waterfall at Berkeley.
所以他说，“你必须看看简·古道尔的作品，写下黑猩猩和它们在广阔的大自然中展示的瀑布。”它们安静地坐落在河流周围，就像伯克利的瀑布一样。
They look at things.
他们看事物。
They get goosebumps.
他们会起鸡皮疙瘩。
They touch things like we would out in nature.
他们接触事物就像我们接触大自然一样。
They rock.
他们摇滚。
And Jane Goodall said, "Why wouldn't they feel awe?" Or the beginnings of spirituality, which is really being amazed at things outside of the self.
珍·古道尔说：“为什么他们不感到敬畏呢？”或者灵性的开始，即对自我之外的事物感到惊讶。
So with awe, we have a sense of self, interoception, and the like, and then we connect to vast things out there.
因此，有了敬畏，我们就有了自我意识、内感受等等，然后我们就能与外面的广阔事物联系起来。
And that's what our research documented as kind of a central mechanism of awe or transformation is like when you're at Yosemite or when you are standing next to that T-rex skeleton or when you've thought about the passage of time that happens with life, and there are new meditations around that.
这就是我们的研究记录的敬畏或转变的中心机制，就像当你在约塞米蒂国家公园，或者当你站在霸王龙骨架旁边，或者当你思考生命中发生的时间流逝时，并且围绕着它有新的冥想。
You're like, "Wow, I am part of something vast.
你会说，“哇，我是伟大事物的一部分。
I'm part of evolution.
我是进化的一部分。
I'm part of nature.
我是大自然的一部分。
I'm part of an ecosystem." And it changes your whole mind.
我是生态系统的一部分。”它会改变你的整个想法。
It changes the neurophysiology of the mind, default mode network starts to quiet down, activates vagal tone, and you do feel like you're tethered, as you said, to music or a culture or a political movement or the team you love.
它改变了思维的神经生理学，默认模式网络开始安静下来，激活迷走神经张力，正如你所说，你确实感觉自己被音乐、文化、政治运动或你所爱的团队所束缚。
And it's transcendent.
而且它是超越的。
And if you look at where we are today, we need more of that.
如果你看看我们今天的处境，就会发现我们还需要更多。
We need to get our young people to be connecting to big things.
我们需要让年轻人接触大事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now.
你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已有近 15 年了。
I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了它，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在听它。
The reason I started taking it, and the reason I still take it, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我开始服用它的原因，以及我仍然服用它的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink, and it tastes great.
它将维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原结合到一勺中，易于饮用，味道极佳。
It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition.
它旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等，并通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。
Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods.
当然，现在每个人都应该努力吃有营养的天然食品。
I certainly do that every day.
我当然每天都这样做。
But I'm often asked, "If you could take just one supplement, what would that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1, because it has just been oh-so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance.
但我经常被问到，“如果你只能服用一种补充剂，你会选择什么补充剂？”我的答案始终是 AG1，因为它对于支持我的身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面都非常重要。
I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily.
我从自己使用 AG1 的经验中了解到这一点，并且我不断从其他每天使用 AG1 的人那里听到这一点。
If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3+K2 with your subscription.
限时订阅后，AG1 将赠送 6 个免费 AG1 旅行包和一瓶维生素 D3+K2。
Again, that's drinkag1, with the numeral one, .com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3+K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，这是 Drinkag1，输入数字 1，.com/huberman，订阅即可获得六个免费旅行包和一瓶维生素 D3+K2。
I didn't expect that we would land here, at least not so early in the conversation.
我没想到我们会降落在这里，至少在谈话中没有这么早。
But we've had Christof Koch on this podcast- Yeah ...
但我们在这个播客上邀请了克里斯托夫·科赫——是的……
talking about consciousness, incredible neuroscientist and really thinker.
谈论意识，令人难以置信的神经科学家和真正的思想家。
Yeah.
是的。
I've watched his career evolve over the years, and he's continued to evolve his concepts of- Yeah ...
多年来我见证了他职业生涯的发展，他也在不断发展他的概念——是的……
how to think about consciousness.
如何思考意识。
And we'll hear nowadays about, oh, maybe consciousness is outside the brain.
现在我们会听到，哦，也许意识在大脑之外。
Yeah.
是的。
And I think if nothing else, our brains are important components in it.
我认为，如果不出意外的话，我们的大脑就是其中的重要组成部分。
Maybe not.
也许不是。
Heck yeah.
哎呀，是的。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't want to do the experiment on myself to find out.
我不想在自己身上做实验来找出答案。
Yeah.
是的。
Like if I was decerebrated or something, which basically means having your cortex removed, folks.
伙计们，就像我被去大脑了一样，这基本上意味着你的大脑皮层被移除了。
Sorry for the nerd speak.
抱歉，书呆子说话了。
But the idea is connecting through time in our own lives- Yeah ...
但这个想法是通过我们自己生活中的时间联系起来的——是的……
is a very unique form of awe.
是一种非常独特的敬畏形式。
So if I hear a song and it reminds me of when I was 15, and then all of a sudden, all the, as I call it, the magic library come.
所以，如果我听到一首歌，它让我想起我 15 岁的时候，然后突然之间，所有的，正如我所说的，魔法图书馆都来了。
That's how the brain works, right?
这就是大脑的工作原理，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
It's like Harry Potter.
这就像哈利·波特。
You take out a book, you see a subject, and then all of a sudden the books around it change.
你拿出一本书，看到一个主题，然后突然之间，围绕它的书发生了变化。
And so I'm thinking about the time we did this and the time we did that, and everyone has these notions.
所以我在想我们做过这个和那个的时候，每个人都有这些想法。
But there's very much linked to them.
但它们之间有很多联系。
That's one form of linking up through time.
这是通过时间联系起来的一种形式。
Well put.
说得好。
And then there's this other one where you feel something with someone else.
还有另一种情况，就是你对别人有某种感觉。
You know you're connected in that moment, but there's this idea, forgive me for getting squishy on here, but there's this idea that maybe your past, present, and future is connected to their past and present- Yeah ...
你知道你们在那一刻是相连的，但有一个想法，请原谅我在这里变得软弱，但有一个想法，也许你的过去、现在和未来与他们的过去和现在有关——是的......
and future.
和未来。
Yeah.
是的。
And if you let yourself go there, no drugs required, if you let yourself go there, you're like, "Oh, we're part of this together." And that we're sort of moving more now as a conscious fleet than as individuals.
如果你让自己去那里，不需要药物，如果你让自己去那里，你会说，“哦，我们是一起的一部分。”我们现在更多的是作为一支有意识的舰队而不是作为个体来行动。
Yeah.
是的。
I think that's a very real experience, even for people that are very resistant to even the language of collective consciousness- Yeah ...
我认为这是一次非常真实的经历，即使对于那些非常抗拒集体意识语言的人来说也是如此——是的......
and things like that.
诸如此类的事情。
And I think concerts are where we generally feel that.
我认为音乐会是我们普遍感受到这一点的地方。
Yeah.
是的。
Because it requires a sort of shared perceptual experience or emotional experience.
因为它需要一种共享的感知体验或情感体验。
Yep.
是的。
And so when you say getting young people connected that way- Yeah ...
所以当你说让年轻人以这种方式联系起来时——是的......
it's very different than node to node.
它与节点到节点有很大不同。
It's an openness that comes.
这是一种开放的到来。
First, you have to connect to your past, present, and future, and then you're kind of open to it.
首先，你必须连接到你的过去、现在和未来，然后你才能对此持开放态度。
I feel like then that window opens, and then if there's one person there or 1,000 people standing there, it's on.
我感觉那扇窗户打开了，然后如果有一个人或 1,000 个人站在那里，它就打开了。
Yeah.
是的。
But if not, and you're just in- Yeah ...
但如果没有，你就在 - 是的......
your experience, you're the person at the party wondering whether or not you have something between your teeth, which is the lamest way to be at a party, but we've all been there, right?
根据你的经验，你是聚会上的那个人，想知道你的牙齿之间是否有东西，这是参加聚会的最蹩脚的方式，但我们都经历过，对吧？
Anyway, I'm getting a little outside the box here.
不管怎样，我有点打破常规了。
No, I love it.
不，我喜欢它。
But what are your thoughts about individual awe experiences, like on the awe walk- Yeah ...
但是你对个人敬畏体验有什么看法，比如敬畏步行——是的......
versus a couple on an awe walk, versus connecting to a whole mess of people, some of whom you've never met?
与一对情侣在敬畏中散步，与与一群人（其中一些你从未见过）建立联系？
You've highlighted this temporal, this dynamic that you're pointing to with respect to awe and the experience of awe, and we're so limited in how we measure experience.
你强调了你所指的敬畏和敬畏体验的这种时间、动态，而我们衡量体验的方式却非常有限。
And I think you're right.
我认为你是对的。
I think that your first sense of one of the most awesome qualities of awe is connecting in your mind through the layers of consciousness and experience that shifts out of the micro to this expansive narrative about your mind, right?
我认为，你对敬畏最令人敬畏的品质之一的第一感觉是通过意识和经验的层次在你的头脑中建立联系，这些意识和经验从微观转变为关于你思想的广阔叙述，对吗？
And so I grew up around the UCLA campus because my mom got her PhD there at UCLA in the late '60s, and there were eucalyptus trees.
我在加州大学洛杉矶分校校园附近长大，因为我妈妈在 60 年代末在加州大学洛杉矶分校获得了博士学位，那里有桉树。
And then I went to Northern California, where there were not as many eucalyptus trees.
然后我去了北加州，那里的桉树没有那么多。
And first day I was at UC Santa Barbara as an undergrad, I smelled the eucalyptus, and it was awe.
我在加州大学圣巴巴拉分校读本科的第一天，我闻到了桉树的味道，我很敬畏。
It was just like, ah, all of these experiences through the olfactory process.
就像，啊，所有这些经历都是通过嗅觉过程产生的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I was awestruck by that smell, right?
我被那味道吓到了，对吗？
And that's through the connecting through time.
这是通过时间的连接。
I am very persuaded by the new literature on brain synchronization.
关于大脑同步的新文献非常说服我。
And I talk about this a bit in "Awe," and there's just new science coming out.
我在“敬畏”中谈到了这一点，并且刚刚出现了新的科学。
We're always syncing up with other people.
我们总是与其他人保持同步。
When a nine-month-old listens to music, they are syncing up to the sounds and rhythms of their culture's music, and they're synced up physiologically with whomever is in their midst.
当一个九个月大的孩子听音乐时，他们正在与他们文化的音乐的声音和节奏同步，并且他们在生理上与他们中间的任何人同步。
When we go to a concert or we watch a sporting event.
当我们去听音乐会或观看体育赛事时。
If you like sports, your heart rate is syncing up, your brains are synchronizing.
如果你喜欢运动，你的心率就会同步，你的大脑就会同步。
And that, in some sense, is the materialistic account of collective consciousness.
从某种意义上说，这就是集体意识的唯物主义解释。
We're all sharing brain patterns and awareness.
我们都在分享大脑模式和意识。
And I think that
我认为
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
It's part of some of our deepest forms of awe.
这是我们最深层次的敬畏的一部分。
And music, now the current science of music is like, it is very hard to get people to think collectively in the same way.
而音乐，现在的音乐科学就像，很难让人们以同样的方式集体思考。
When you teach a classroom, it's impossible, but music does it within milliseconds.
当你在课堂上教学时，这是不可能的，但音乐可以在几毫秒内做到这一点。
Right?
正确的？
When you talk to people who've been to Taylor Swift shows, who are Swifties, it's serious, right?
当你和看过泰勒·斯威夫特 (Taylor Swift) 演出的人（即 Swifties）交谈时，这很严重，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They are instantly bonded.
他们立刻就结下了不解之缘。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the word.
就是这个词。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
United in a moral cause almost, or an identity cause.
几乎在道德事业或身份事业上团结起来。
So that's profound.
所以这很深刻。
That's very hard work to do.
这是非常困难的工作。
And when Jonathan Haidt and I wrote about awe early in our careers, we were like, "We need these emotions to make us be part of collectives," because we are a very collective species.
当乔纳森·海特和我在职业生涯早期写到敬畏时，我们说，“我们需要这些情感使我们成为集体的一部分”，因为我们是一个非常集体的物种。
It's one of our signature strengths, is to fold into groups and to cooperate and share.
团结、合作和分享是我们的标志性优势之一。
It's hard work.
这很辛苦。
It's vulnerable to exploitation, and awe is one of the fastest pathways.
它很容易受到剥削，而敬畏是最快的途径之一。
It's through what you're talking about, through physical dancing together, chanting together, sporting events together, what Émile Durkheim called collective effervescence, right?
这是通过你所谈论的内容，通过一起跳舞、一起吟诵、一起参加体育赛事，埃米尔·涂尔干（Émile Durkheim）所说的集体兴奋，对吗？
Music, just syncing up with each other, feeling like we're part of this vast group, sharing a sense of humanity, a sense that we all suffer in the same way or exalt in the same way, and it's profound.
音乐，彼此同步，感觉我们是这个庞大群体的一部分，分享一种人性意识，一种我们都以同样的方式受苦或以同样的方式颂扬的感觉，这是深刻的。
I don't think we'll ever get this with science, but I love, I've had all these conversations about awe and musical awe.
我认为我们永远无法通过科学实现这一点，但我喜欢，我已经进行了所有这些关于敬畏和音乐敬畏的对话。
I'm like, when's a time, and I could ask you this question, when being at a concert has changed your life?
我想，什么时候我可以问你这个问题，什么时候参加音乐会改变了你的生活？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
They're some of the most important, not just memorable, but important experiences of my entire life.
它们是我一生中最重要的经历，不仅令人难忘，而且非常重要。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
So tell me about one or two.
那么请告诉我一两个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My sister listened to the Grateful Dead and Cat Stevens and all that kind of stuff.
我姐姐听 Grateful Dead 和 Cat Stevens 之类的音乐。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And from the first time I heard, people will immediately think bullet belts and Mohawks, but I was a punk rock kid.
从我第一次听到，人们会立即想到子弹带和莫霍克发型，但我是一个朋克摇滚孩子。
I'll never forget, my friend who's now well-known in the skateboard community, Jim Thiebaud.
我永远不会忘记我的朋友吉姆·蒂博（Jim Thiebaud），他现在在滑板界很出名。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I know Jim.
我认识吉姆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know Jim?
你认识吉姆吗？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's a close friend of mine.
他是我的好朋友。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I take saunas with Jim.
我和吉姆一起洗桑拿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you?
你呢？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I texted with him this morning.
今天早上我给他发了短信。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Say hi.
打个招呼吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We text each other every morning.
我们每天早上都会互相发短信。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The great Jim Thiebaud.
伟大的吉姆·蒂博。
He basically runs skateboarding.
他主要从事滑板运动。
He's the dean of skateboarding, the quiet dean of-
他是滑板界的泰斗，安静的泰斗——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And good friends with Tommy Guerrero.
和汤米·格雷罗是好朋友。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good friends with Tommy Guerrero.
与汤米·格雷罗是好朋友。
Jim gave me my first cup of black coffee.
吉姆给了我第一杯黑咖啡。
He was the person who inspired me to start journaling when I was 14.
他是我 14 岁时激励我开始写日记的人。
I was put on out of sympathy onto Thunder Trucks, and at the time, he was around the factory, which at that time was over in Third Street, Hunter's Point, on Yosemite.
出于同情，我被安排上了雷霆卡车，当时他正在工厂附近，当时工厂位于优胜美地猎人角第三街。
But anyway, Jim gave me a tape, because back then it was tapes, of a band called Crimpshrine-
但无论如何，吉姆给了我一盘磁带，因为当时是一个叫 Crimpshrine 的乐队的磁带——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is from Berkeley.
来自伯克利。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And, they were on Lookout Records, which eventually were first releases of Green Day.
而且，他们收录在 Lookout Records 唱片公司中，这也是 Green Day 乐队的首张专辑。
I wasn't so much, forgive me, I like those guys, I know some of them, but I heard that tape, it was like, "This is amazing." "This is amazing.
我不太喜欢，请原谅我，我喜欢那些人，我认识其中一些人，但我听到那盘磁带时，感觉就像是，“这太棒了。” “这太棒了。
I've never heard anything quite like it."
我从来没有听过类似的事情。”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was super raw.
这是超级原始的。
And then I was like, "I need more of this."
然后我想，“我需要更多这样的东西。”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was like a drug.
这就像毒品一样。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was like, "I need more of this."
我当时想，“我需要更多这样的东西。”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Whatever this is."
“不管这是什么。”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so he gave me a Stiff Little Fingers tape.
所以他给了我一盘僵硬的小手指磁带。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that was just it.
就是这样。
And then it was Stiff Little Fingers, Operation Ivy, Rancid.
然后是《僵硬的小手指》、《常春藤行动》、《腐臭》。
I could easily do a whole, literally a thesis- ...
我可以轻松地写出一篇完整的、字面上的论文——......
on that whole kind of era and genre of punk rock.
关于朋克摇滚的整个时代和流派。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm a huge Joe Strummer fan.
我是乔·斯特鲁默的超级粉丝。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Heck yeah.
哎呀，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mescaleros and-
梅斯卡莱罗斯和-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
biggest Rancid fan there ever was.
有史以来最大的 Rancid 粉丝。
I'm blessed to be good friends with Tim Armstrong these days, but I only-
这些天我很幸运能和蒂姆·阿姆斯特朗成为好朋友，但我只是——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
met him later in life.
在后来的生活中遇见了他。
And that still freaks me out, because we're close friends, but whenever I see him, I'm like, "That's Tim Armstrong." Because talk about time travel.
这仍然让我感到害怕，因为我们是亲密的朋友，但每当我看到他时，我都会想，“那是蒂姆·阿姆斯特朗。”因为谈论时间旅行。
That's the 14, 15-year-old version of me.
这就是14、15岁的我。
Those guys are a bit older, and they were like gods in the Bay Area-
那些家伙年纪大了点，在湾区简直就是神了——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Heck yeah
哎呀，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for our scene.
对于我们的场景。
And then when they made it.
然后当他们成功的时候。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're just still so good.
他们仍然那么好。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The show that changed everything for me was, this would be summer between '93 and '94, a little club, it was either called The Stage House or The Stagecoach in Santa Barbara-
对我来说改变一切的演出是，这将是93年和94年之间的夏天，一个小俱乐部，它要么被称为“舞台屋”，要么被称为圣巴巴拉的“驿站马车”-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that was near the railroad tracks downtown.
那是在市中心的铁轨附近。
And it was Rancid playing with Sick of It All, which was a East Coast hardcore band, and my now good friend Toby Morse was there.
Rancid 与 Sick of It All 一起演奏，这是一支东海岸硬核乐队，我现在的好朋友 Toby Morse 也在场。
And I remember going there and being kind of scared.
我记得我去那里的时候有点害怕。
I'm-
我是——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of like-
有点像-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Mosh pits and
莫什坑和
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
knew my way around it.
我知道解决这个问题的方法。
Those guys were older.
那些人年纪都比较大了。
It had a kind of violent feel.
有一种暴力的感觉。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They were from Albany and West Oakland and-
他们来自奥尔巴尼和西奥克兰，而且——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there was an edge there.
那里有一个优势。
And I remember thinking, "This is exciting.
我记得我当时想：“这太令人兴奋了。
I feel very much a part of this.
我感觉自己是其中的一部分。
I love the music."
我喜欢音乐。”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"I know every lyric, and I'm a little bit frightened, and I love it." And I think it was just that I just got the adrenaline back.
“每句歌词我都认识，我有点害怕，但我喜欢它。”我想这只是我刚刚恢复了肾上腺素。
And there's a little bit of, you don't know what is going to happen, and it feels a little dangerous, but it's mostly benevolent, and it's an irreplaceable feeling.
还有一点，你不知道会发生什么，感觉有点危险，但多半是仁慈的，是一种无可替代的感觉。
And I think about it a lot of the time.
我经常思考这个问题。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And thank you.
谢谢你。
And when I was writing this book on awe, some forms of awe, there are eight wonders that give us awe.
当我写这本关于敬畏的书时，敬畏的某些形式，有八种奇迹让我们敬畏。
Some are, you kind of understand them.
有些是，你有点理解它们。
Nature's pretty straightforward, spirituality, meditation.
自然很简单，灵性，冥想。
And music, and your description of it exactly captures how rich it is and complicated, which is, there is something about that sound and the acoustic patterns that come through your eardrums and head into your auditory cortex, and you give it meaning, and suddenly you're remembering things and bonding with people and the Insta friends, like you said.
还有音乐，你对它的描述准确地捕捉到了它的丰富性和复杂性，也就是说，声音和声学模式穿过你的耳膜进入你的听觉皮层，你赋予它意义，突然间你就记住了事情，并与人们和 Insta 朋友建立了联系，就像你说的那样。
for life.
为了生活。
Brothers and sisters almost, and you're like, "This is what life's about." And Susan Langer, a philosopher, really got it right.
兄弟姐妹们差不多了，你会说：“这就是生活的意义。”哲学家苏珊·兰格（Susan Langer）确实说对了。
She's like, "Music is this tonal language of emotion and identity." And awe in music, very fitting with our conversation, is when those sounds come into you, move you, and connect you to something that is what you care about in life.
她说，“音乐是情感和身份的音调语言。”对音乐的敬畏，与我们的谈话非常吻合，是当这些声音进入你的内心，感动你，并将你与你生活中关心的事物联系起来。
I remember I was very lucky to grow up in Laurel Canyon in the late '60s, and there was more music there than almost anywhere in human history, from The Mamas & Papas and Frank Zappa and-
我记得我很幸运能够在 60 年代末在 Laurel Canyon 长大，那里的音乐比人类历史上几乎任何地方都多，包括 The Mamas & Papas 和 Frank Zappa 以及——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Jim Morrison was out there
吉姆·莫里森就在那里
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
...
...
Jim Morrison was living there, and The Doors, and Bob Dylan was passing through and The Byrds.
吉姆·莫里森和 The Doors 都住在那里，而鲍勃·迪伦和 The Byrds 则路过那里。
It was a joke.
这是一个笑话。
It was everywhere.
它无处不在。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's wild just to think about how much incredible music was being created.
想想有多少令人难以置信的音乐被创造出来，真是太疯狂了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
The Beach Boys were at-
海滩男孩当时在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, weren't Fleetwood Mac back in-
我是说，弗利特伍德麦克不是回来了-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in Topanga?
在托潘加？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I was eight and nine, and just to grow up on Bob Dylan, and when I saw about the recent film with Timothée Chalamet, I started crying.
我当时八岁和九岁，就在鲍勃·迪伦的陪伴下长大，当我看到蒂莫西·柴勒梅德最近拍摄的电影时，我开始哭泣。
I was just like, "This is life." Yeah.
我当时想，“这就是生活。”是的。
And so that's why we study awe.
这就是我们研究敬畏的原因。
Music is one of our great technologies.
音乐是我们伟大的技术之一。
There's now research showing it's good for chronic pain.
现在有研究表明它对慢性疼痛有好处。
I think it's a frontier in healthcare and just giving people contemplative, meditative approaches to music, and awe is part of the answer.
我认为这是医疗保健领域的前沿，只是为人们提供沉思、冥想的音乐方法，而敬畏是答案的一部分。
And you and I share yet another thing, Andrew, when I grew up in the foothills of the Sierras as a teenager, Ted Nugent, and it was poor area, Ted Nugent, AC/DC, and that's all fine.
你和我还有另一件事，安德鲁，当我十几岁的时候在塞拉斯山脉的山麓长大，泰德·纽金特，那是一个贫穷的地区，泰德·纽金特，AC/DC，这一切都很好。
And when I first heard the Sex Pistols in...
当我第一次听到 Sex Pistols 的时候……
I was lucky to be in England when "Never Mind the Bollocks" came out, and I was in a working-class fighting town.
当《别介意那些胡言乱语》上映时，我很幸运地在英国，而且我正在一个工人阶级的战斗城镇。
And I heard that, I was like, "That's it." And then that led me to Iggy Pop, who's one of my moral heroes.
我听到这个，我想，“就是这样。”然后我找到了伊基·波普（Iggy Pop），他是我心目中的道德英雄之一。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Who's really into qigong, apparently.
显然谁是真正热爱气功的人。
I heard him years ago on the radio and someone was asking how does he stay in such good shape?
几年前我在广播中听到过他的声音，有人问他是如何保持这么好的状态的？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he's just tons of qigong breathing.
而他只是大量的气功呼吸。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
It's interesting because a lot of music has lyrics and a lot doesn't.
这很有趣，因为很多音乐都有歌词，但也有很多没有。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there's something that feels kind of divorced from language about-
但有一些感觉有点脱离语言——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the experience that we're talking about, even though there's lyrics tied in there.
我们正在谈论的体验，尽管其中有歌词。
And what brings that to mind is there's a really good book, one that I like anyway, called "A Fighter's Heart" by a guy named Sam Sheridan.
让我想起的是一本非常好的书，无论如何我都很喜欢，书名叫《战士的心》，作者是萨姆·谢里登。
His wife actually wrote that movie "Monster," with Charlize Theron-
他的妻子实际上和查理兹·塞隆一起写了那部电影《怪物》——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think is the actress that played her.
我认为是扮演她的女演员。
And I don't know Sam, but there's this description of all these different martial arts forms, and he explores them all and-
我不认识山姆，但对所有这些不同的武术形式都有这样的描述，他探索了所有这些形式，然后——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there's this great line in there, because I've done a little bit of boxing- ...
那里有一句很棒的台词，因为我打过一点拳击——……
and sparred a bit.
并打了一下。
I don't recommend it.
我不推荐它。
As a neuroscientist, how can I recommend it, right?
作为一名神经科学家，我该如何推荐它，对吧？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
What were you doing?
你在做什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You get hit.
你会被击中。
Well, I was actually in my 30s, but anyway, I was working some stuff out.
好吧，我实际上已经 30 多岁了，但无论如何，我正在做一些事情。
But do not recommend.
但不推荐。
The sport, yeah, the training, yeah, but you don't want to get hit in the head.
运动，是的，训练，是的，但你不想头部被击中。
Not good for your brain whatsoever.
对你的大脑一点好处都没有。
But he talks about how fighting with someone, sparring-
但他谈到了如何与某人打架，打斗——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or fighting with someone is, he said it's one of the most bonding experiences that you'll ever have.
或者与某人打架，他说这是你所拥有的最亲密的经历之一。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you're in this primitive non-language state.
因为你处于这种原始的非语言状态。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He actually likens it to a one-night stand.
他实际上把这比作一夜情。
He says something like, "Oh, you're sharing bodily fluids with somebody that you barely know, but you feel connected."
他说，“哦，你正在与一个你几乎不认识的人分享体液，但你感觉有联系。”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I don't know if that's the best, it's certainly not the most politically correct way to put it.
所以我不知道这是否是最好的，这肯定不是政治上最正确的表达方式。
But I understand what he's talking about, right?
但我明白他在说什么，对吗？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're in this moment of you're both vulnerable.
你们此时此刻都很脆弱。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the case of the fighting, you're both vulnerable.
在打斗的情况下，你们都很脆弱。
You're trying to hurt each other.
你们正试图伤害彼此。
You're also obeying some rules.
你也遵守一些规则。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
It's not anything goes.
并不是什么事情都会发生。
And he talks about how it transcends language.
他谈到了它如何超越语言。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that creates a forever bond.
这创造了永远的纽带。
And it's true.
这是真的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I didn't do a ton of sparring, but you have a respect.
我没有进行太多的陪练，但你值得尊重。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You went through something hard together.
你们一起经历过一些艰难的事情。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even if it's only three three-minute rounds.
即使只有三个三分钟的回合。
It's real, but it's separate from language.
它是真实的，但它与语言无关。
And earlier, we were talking about the experience of emotion as this kind of triad of the feeling, the motor component to it-
早些时候，我们谈论的情感体验是这种感觉的三元组，它的运动成分——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and language.
和语言。
But I do think that maybe the language piece can go.
但我确实认为也许语言部分可以删除。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I'm with you in some sense.
从某种意义上来说我和你在一起。
Darwin wrote about the motor components, got a lot of it right.
达尔文写了关于电机部件的文章，其中很多都是正确的。
William James was about the body and the physiology.
威廉·詹姆斯是关于身体和生理学的。
And language is what we rely on as social scientists, but I think it's, as William James said when he tried to describe his experience of transcendence, when he took laughing gas and it led him down the path to understand spirituality is like, words are tattered fragments.
语言是我们作为社会科学家所依赖的，但我认为，正如威廉·詹姆斯在试图描述他的超越体验时所说的那样，当他吸入笑气时，笑气引导他走上理解灵性的道路，就像，语言是破烂的碎片。
They barely touch the real thing.
他们几乎没有接触到真正的东西。
Yeah, and I just want to dwell for a moment.
是的，我只想停留一会儿。
Part of awe, and I learned this talking to veterans, and I did work with Stacy Bare, and we did this Sierra Club research getting veterans out on the rivers, and he's one of my heroes in the book of getting tens of thousands of veterans to find their awe in nature.
部分是敬畏，我在与退伍军人的交谈中学到了这一点，我确实与史黛西·巴尔一起工作，我们做了塞拉俱乐部的研究，让退伍军人上河，他是我书中的英雄之一，让成千上万的退伍军人在大自然中发现他们的敬畏。
And these are guys who've lost limbs and they're rock climbing.
这些人失去了四肢，正在攀岩。
And it's just like there's a lot of awe when you're right at the edge of life, and there's violence and there's a lot of horror, carnage, et cetera, but there's awe.
就像当你处于生命的边缘时，会有很多敬畏，有暴力、有很多恐怖、屠杀等等，但敬畏是存在的。
And I love your idea, and I think any teacher of the martial arts would say that's the point, is that we can transcend death or violence by martial arts by performing them and putting them into a contemplative form for the body.
我喜欢你的想法，我想任何武术老师都会说，这就是重点，我们可以通过武术来超越死亡或暴力，通过表演它们并将它们转化为身体的沉思形式。
One of my favorite movies, if not my favorite movie, is "Raging Bull," man, and Martin Scorsese.
我最喜欢的电影之一，如果不是我最喜欢的电影，就是《愤怒的公牛》，伙计，还有马丁·斯科塞斯。
Jake LaMotta and Sugar Ray have these epic battles, and they look at each other in one of the great scenes, and they're just like, "We're united.
杰克·拉莫塔和舒格·雷进行了一场史诗般的战斗，他们在一个伟大的场景中互相看着对方，他们就像是，“我们团结在一起。
We're way beyond the fight." I think you're right.
我们已经远远超出了战斗的范围。”我认为你是对的。
I think it's part of this transcendent moment of people crashing into each other.
我认为这是人们相互碰撞这一超凡时刻的一部分。
Mosh pits.
莫什坑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
They are one of my favorite objects of study and awe, and mosh pits have a set of laws to them.
它们是我最喜欢研究和敬畏的对象之一，而狂欢坑对它们有一套规则。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, people have studied the-
是的，人们研究过——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
The physics
物理学
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sort of the physics of it.
有点像它的物理学。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, no.
是的，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And you think you're crashing, and you are.
你认为你正在崩溃，事实确实如此。
You're bruising yourself.
你把自己弄伤了。
But there's something transcendent there about what we find.
但我们的发现有一些超然的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I could be wrong, but I think "Raging Bull," I think that the soundtrack was Clash inspired.
我可能是错的，但我认为《愤怒的公牛》的配乐是受到《冲突》启发的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Was it really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's something about it in the documentary, which I highly recommend, called "The Future Is Unwritten"-
我强烈推荐的纪录片中有一些关于它的内容，叫做“未来是不成文的”——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is the Joe Strummer thing, where there's some linkup between The Clash.
这是 Joe Strummer 的事情，The Clash 之间有一些联系。
I think Scorsese says, "The Clash inspired the soundtrack to Raging Bull," or something like that.
我认为斯科塞斯说过，“《冲突》激发了《愤怒的公牛》配乐的灵感”，或者类似的话。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyway.
无论如何。
He's a big Clash fan, so.
所以他是《Clash》的忠实粉丝。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Nice.
不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or yeah.
或者是的。
So-
所以——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
All right, Andrew, I get to ask you one more question.
好吧，安德鲁，我再问你一个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
So why is Joe Strummer a person of moral beauty to you?
那么为什么乔·斯特鲁默对你来说是一个道德高尚的人呢？
One of the sources of awe is we're amazed by people's courage and strength and kindness and justice.
敬畏的来源之一是我们对人们的勇气、力量、善良和正义感到惊讶。
So why Joe Strummer?
那么为什么是乔·斯特拉默呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oof, man.
噢，伙计。
All right, I'm going to try and keep this brief.
好吧，我会尽量保持简短。
Just to give you a sense of what an impact he's had on me, I've always worn these button-down black shirts, even before I was public facing.
只是为了让您感受到他对我的影响，我一直穿着这些带纽扣的黑色衬衫，甚至在我面对公众之前也是如此。
Because I saw him do a show, a Mescalero show.
因为我看到他做了一场表演，一场梅斯卡莱罗表演。
I wasn't there, but he...
我不在场，但他...
By the way, Joe Strummer & The Mescaleros, I actually think is better than The Clash.
顺便说一句，我实际上认为 Joe Strummer & The Mescaleros 比 The Clash 更好。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Clash was a short run.
冲突是短暂的。
It was only five years.
时间只有五年。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Only five years.
只有五年。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pretty much, and then they're done.
差不多了，然后就完成了。
So it's one of those Clash, and then he came back with The Mescaleros, and just incredible.
所以这是一场冲突，然后他带着梅斯卡莱罗斯回来了，真是令人难以置信。
They're masterpieces.
他们是杰作。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Produced in part by my friend Tim Armstrong.
部分由我的朋友蒂姆·阿姆斯特朗制作。
He went Hellcat Records.
他去了地狱猫唱片公司。
He went to a small label.
他去了一家小厂牌。
He also sang songs with Johnny Cash with Rick Rubin.
他还与约翰尼·卡什和里克·鲁宾一起演唱了歌曲。
I actually know the story of that because I'm friends with Rick, and I insisted on him telling me the story.
我实际上知道这个故事，因为我是里克的朋友，我坚持让他告诉我这个故事。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometime I can tell you that, but masterpieces late in life.
有时我可以告诉你，但杰作是晚年的。
And there was a show that Strummer played where he was wearing his black button-down, soaking in sweat, like soaked in sweat, and he just wouldn't take the thing off.
在一场演出中，斯特鲁默穿着黑色系扣衬衫，浑身被汗水浸透，就像被汗水浸透一样，他就是不肯把它脱下来。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think he might've rolled up one cuff.
我想他可能卷起了一只袖口。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I was like, "That's punk as fuck." I was like, "That guy is so rad." And he died at 50, where I'm 50 now.
我当时想，“这真是他妈的朋克。”我当时想，“那家伙真是太棒了。”他50岁就去世了，而我现在也50岁了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Died at 50.
50岁时去世。
I go see the mural of him, it's right off Tompkins Square Park, in Alphabet City.
我去看他的壁画，就在字母城汤普金斯广场公园附近。
Every time I'm in New York-
每次我在纽约——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Nice
尼斯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just go see it.
就去看看吧。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right on.
就在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's an aviator, says, "Future is unwritten." You can go there, pay your respects.
有一位飞行员说：“未来是不成文的。”你可以去那里瞻仰一下。
I've talked to Rick about this a lot, like what was it about him?
我和瑞克谈过很多次这个问题，比如他是怎么回事？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because they were close friends, and I never met Strummer.
因为他们是亲密的朋友，而我从未见过斯特鲁默。
But I think there's three reasons.
但我认为有三个原因。
One is, he had that Bob Dylan-like ability to write lyrics that you're not, especially with Mescaleros, where you're not really sure what the song's about, but it makes sense, not just because it's beautiful, but you feel like he's tapping into something more fundamental than what the lyrics-
一是，他有鲍勃·迪伦（Bob Dylan）那样的写歌词的能力，而你却没有，尤其是《Mescaleros》，你不太确定这首歌是关于什么的，但它是有道理的，不仅因为它很美，而且你觉得他正在挖掘一些比歌词更基本的东西——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are actually saying.
实际上是在说。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Beyond language.
超越语言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
The theme of our talk.
我们演讲的主题。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A great song, for instance, would be "On the Road to Rock and Roll." That could be about being on tour or something, but-
例如，一首伟大的歌曲是“On the Road to Rock and Roll”。这可能是关于巡演什么的，但是-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it transcends something obvious.
它超越了一些显而易见的东西。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Nice.
不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other thing is the way he used his breath was, his intonation is unparalleled.
另外就是他的气息运用方式，语调无与伦比。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then Rick was the one who really helped me understand, because during the summer, I go hang out with Rick whenever I can.
然后里克是真正帮助我理解的人，因为在夏天，我一有机会就和里克一起出去玩。
And winter, too.
还有冬天。
And we watch documentaries.
我们看纪录片。
Including Clash documentaries.
包括冲突纪录片。
And I asked him, I was like, "What was it?" Why does he have this thing?
我问他，我想，“那是什么？”他为什么会有这个东西？
Because he says these incredible things.
因为他说了这些令人难以置信的话。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He would say things like, "You got to bring humanity back into the center," or thing.
他会说“你必须让人类重新回到中心”之类的话。
And those are really beautiful quotes, but a lot of people give beautiful quotes.
这些都是非常美丽的引言，但是很多人都给出了美丽的引言。
And Rick, in very Rick Rubin style, said, "Everything he said, he brought his whole life experience into those statements." And I was like, "Just the statements, like the quotes?"
里克以里克·鲁宾的风格说道：“他所说的一切，都把他一生的经历融入到这些陈述中。”我当时想，“只是陈述，比如引言？”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like the, "We got to bring the humanity back into the..." And he goes, "No, everything he said." It was like you got the sense that he was bringing all of himself to it, even if he was being kind of quiet.
就像，“我们必须让人类重新回到……”他说，“不，他所说的一切。”就好像你感觉到他正在全力以赴，即使他很安静。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
That's cool.
太酷了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I go, okay, so this is clearly on a plane of understanding that I can't put language to, right?
我说，好吧，所以这显然是在一个我无法用语言表达的理解层面上，对吧？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What does that even mean?
这到底意味着什么？
That's like half the things Rick says, it's like a riddle- ...
这就像瑞克说的一半的话，就像一个谜语——......
mixed up in a poem, put out there as-
混合在一首诗中，作为-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
As a principle
作为一个原则
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a principle, and you're just like-
作为一个原则，你就像-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"What the hell does that mean?" But it feels true.
“这到底是什么意思？”但这感觉是真的。
And I think that, and Rick's superpower-
我认为，还有瑞克的超能力——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is that Rick knows what a true feeling feels like.
是瑞克知道什么是真正的感觉。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he knows what a false feeling feels like, and he's only interested in truths, period.
他知道虚假的感觉是什么感觉，而且他只对真相感兴趣，就这样。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And that's the challenge of the science that I'm part of, is exactly that.
这正是我所从事的科学面临的挑战。
It's like there are all these layers of meaning and representation, and we try to figure out true moments of awe with all of our measures, and it is this, it's all coming together as a package that tells us it's happened.
就好像有所有这些层次的意义和表征，我们试图用我们所有的措施找出真正的敬畏时刻，就是这样，所有这些都作为一个包组合在一起，告诉我们它已经发生了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we can think about things that promote awe.
所以我们可以考虑一些能够促进敬畏的事情。
The awe walk, going small to large aperture, maybe back again.
敬畏地行走，从小光圈到大光圈，也许还会再回来。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I guess we shouldn't assume that it's unidirectional.
我想我们不应该假设它是单向的。
Coming back into our home after something big is-
发生大事后回到我们家是-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Ah
啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there's nothing like that.
没有那样的事。
Right?
正确的？
The dog, the kids, the-
狗，孩子们，还有——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the spouse, the whatever.
配偶，无论什么。
Those little things.
那些小事。
The plants, even.
甚至是植物。
So it runs both ways.
所以它是双向的。
It's no fun, but we should probably talk about some of the inhibitors of awe.
这并不有趣，但我们或许应该谈谈一些敬畏的抑制因素。
Because as I step back from what we're talking about today, and I think, okay, language, it can be part of it-
因为当我从我们今天谈论的内容退一步时，我想，好吧，语言，它可以成为其中的一部分 -
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it can also, in molecular biology or genetics, we call it a dominant negative.
但在分子生物学或遗传学中，我们也可以将其称为显性失活。
It's like a gene that basically suppresses a set of functions.
它就像一个基本上抑制一组功能的基因。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
A ton of stuff.
一大堆东西。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a joke around molecular labs and neuroscience labs that you'd be like, "That person's a dominant negative." You know?
在分子实验室和神经科学实验室有一个笑话，你可能会说：“那个人是显性阴性。”你知道？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I now have a new phrase I can use.
我现在有一个可以使用的新短语。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Yeah.
是的。
You don't want to be called a dominant negative.
你不想被称为显性阴性。
I call people that in my head a lot online.
我在网上经常这样称呼别人。
I go, "Oh, man, that person's dominant negative.
我说：“哦，伙计，那个人是显性阴性。
They're not contributing to the greater good." So language can be that or be neutral, repositive, but it can definitely be that.
他们没有为更大的利益做出贡献。”所以语言可以是那样，也可以是中性的、反应性的，但它绝对可以是那样。
And then there's something about being over-identified with self.
还有就是过度认同自我。
So on the recommendation of Tim Armstrong, someone you wouldn't associate with the Grateful Dead, he was like, "You got to listen to the Grateful Dead." And I was like, "What?" Says Tim, the Tim Armstrong, Transplants, Rancid, Operation Ivy- ...
因此，在蒂姆·阿姆斯特朗（Tim Armstrong）的推荐下，他说，“你必须听听感恩而死乐队的声音。”我当时想，“什么？”蒂姆说，蒂姆阿姆斯特朗，移植，腐败，常春藤行动 - ...
telling me I should listen to Grateful Dead.
告诉我应该听《Grateful Dead》。
He's a big-
他是个大——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he's a huge music fan of all sorts of things.
他是各种音乐的狂热粉丝。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I said, "Why?" And he said, "They're punk rockers." And I said, " What are you talking about?" And he said, "Yeah, they played a different show every night." That's how they're-- I'm not going to keep doing his.
我说：“为什么？”他说：“他们是朋克摇滚乐手。”我说：“你在说什么？”他说：“是的，他们每晚都表演不同的节目。”他们就是这样——我不会继续做他的事。
I can do a pretty decent Tim for those.
我可以为这些做一个相当不错的蒂姆。
But apparently the people that followed them, that was a big part of it.
但显然追随他们的人是其中很大一部分。
It was all-
这一切都是——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
all new, right?
都是新的，对吧？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Every show was unique.
每场演出都是独一无二的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Started getting really into listening to the Grateful Dead in the last couple of years, and then I started listening to documentaries, biographies of them.
在过去的几年里，我开始真正喜欢听“感恩而死”乐队的音乐，然后我开始听他们的纪录片和传记。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's this amazing moment in one of them, I can't remember which, where somebody says, "What killed it?
其中一个有一个令人惊奇的时刻，我不记得是哪一个，有人说，“是什么杀死了它？
What killed the collective of music?"
是什么杀死了音乐集体？”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like that feeling.
喜欢那种感觉。
And the answer someone gave was cocaine.
有人给出的答案是可卡因。
And then the question was-
然后问题是——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
why cocaine?
为什么可卡因？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And someone said, "Because cocaine's all about me."
有人说：“因为可卡因就是我的全部。”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the me drug.
这是我的药物。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I was like, whoa, I'm a neuroscientist, so I can tack that to you're talking about dopamine-
所以我就想，哇，我是一名神经科学家，所以我可以将其与你谈论的多巴胺联系起来——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and adrenaline.
和肾上腺素。
And when dopamine and adrenaline are elevated, amphetamines-
当多巴胺和肾上腺素升高时，安非他明-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
especially.
特别是。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It becomes a me thing.
它变成了我的事情。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, that's fascinating.
是的，这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every idea that's-
每一个想法都是——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
mine-
我的-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is the thing that needs to happen.
是需要发生的事情。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the important thing.
这是最重要的事情。
If not out there, it needs to happen.
如果不存在，它就需要发生。
That's the only thing that matters.
这是唯一重要的事情。
Very different than cannabis, very different than psychedelics, very different than just the sober experience, the word's kind of a downer, but than the non-intoxicated experience of just being with the music, no substances.
与大麻非常不同，与致幻剂非常不同，与清醒的体验非常不同，这个词有点令人沮丧，但与仅与音乐在一起的非陶醉体验非常不同，没有任何物质。
So I'd love your thoughts on how certain chemical states, but more broadly, how meanness, self-interested states are a dominant negative for awe.
所以我很想听听你对某些化学状态的看法，但更广泛地说，卑鄙、自私的状态如何成为敬畏的主要负面因素。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
That was the best entrance into that question I've ever encountered.
这是我遇到过的回答这个问题的最佳切入点。
It's amazing, Andrew.
太棒了，安德鲁。
I grew up for three years, formative years in Laurel Canyon, '68 to '70, and then we moved to the foothills of the Sierras in Northern California, and it was peak Laurel Canyon, Joni Mitchell and The Byrds and The Beach Boys, and it was just-
我在劳雷尔峡谷长大了三年，从68年到70年，我在劳雷尔峡谷成长了三年，然后我们搬到了北加州的山脉山麓，那是劳雷尔峡谷的巅峰，乔尼·米切尔、伯德乐队和海滩男孩，那只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Jealous.
嫉妒。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It was incredible.
这太不可思议了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Envious in a positive way.
以积极的方式羡慕。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
When my brother passed away, and he was my brother of awe, 14 months younger, and I was in this reflective period.
当我的兄弟去世时，他是我敬畏的兄弟，比我小14个月，而我正处于这个反思时期。
I started reading a lot about Laurel Canyon, and they made the same point, which is things shifted in the early '70s.
我开始阅读很多有关月桂峡谷的文章，他们提出了同样的观点，即 70 年代初情况发生了变化。
And the historian said it's cocaine.
历史学家说这是可卡因。
That it moved from marijuana and mushrooms and psychedelics a bit, but really people playing music, Joni Mitchell or Graham Nash or whomever it is, and then suddenly cocaine comes, and the whole spirit changed.
它从大麻、蘑菇和迷幻剂中转移了一点，但实际上是人们演奏音乐，乔尼·米切尔或格雷厄姆·纳什或无论是谁，然后突然可卡因出现，整个精神都改变了。
Yeah, I think the great enemy of awe is meanness, is what Ralph Waldo Emerson, who was one of our great writers of awe, he has this moment out in nature, cold day in Massachusetts, sees this forest, and he's like, "Standing on the bare ground, my head bathed by there and uplifted into infinite space." And there's that uplift that you described earlier of awe.
是的，我认为敬畏的最大敌人是卑鄙，拉尔夫·沃尔多·爱默生（Ralph Waldo Emerson）是我们伟大的敬畏作家之一，他在马萨诸塞州寒冷的一天在大自然中看到了这片森林，他就像是，“站在光秃秃的地面上，我的头沐浴在那里，升入无限的空间。”还有你之前描述的敬畏之情。
All mean egotism vanishes.
所有卑鄙的自我主义都消失了。
And that's awe.
这就是敬畏。
Awe quiets the self.
敬畏使自我平静。
And when you look at where we are, Jean Twenge, longitudinal data, we're more self-focused.
当你看看我们所处的位置时，Jean Twenge，纵向数据，我们更加以自我为中心。
We're taking a quarter of the pictures that we take are of the self.
我们拍摄的照片中有四分之一是自己的。
It's preposterous.
这太荒谬了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's pretty crazy.
这太疯狂了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Half of the photos we take are of the self or the self with another person or another thing.
我们拍摄的照片中有一半是自己或自己与另一个人或另一件事的照片。
It's perverse.
这是有悖常理的。
The world has become more narcissistic.
世界变得更加自恋。
We're led by narcissists.
我们是由自恋者领导的。
It's just taken as a default, and it's not a default.
它只是作为默认值，而不是默认值。
It's a corruption of our minds because the mind, as you described earlier, is very good at looking at other people, at making eye contact, at seeing their beauty, at hearing their words, at looking at a collective, discerning patterns of nature or collectives, and all of that works against awe, right?
这是我们思想的腐败，因为正如您之前所描述的，思想非常善于观察他人，善于进行目光接触，善于观察他们的美丽，善于倾听他们的话语，善于观察集体，辨别自然或集体的模式，而所有这些都与敬畏相反，对吗？
That if I am focused on myself, I'll feel less awe.
如果我专注于自己，我就会感到更少的敬畏。
If I am worried about my striving in society or my bottom line in my bank account or thinking about money, it countervails awe.
如果我担心自己在社会上的奋斗、银行账户的底线或考虑金钱，它就会抵消敬畏感。
So yeah, I think that's why awe is important for our times.
所以，是的，我认为这就是为什么敬畏对我们这个时代很重要。
We are in this, for various reasons, this period of too much self-focus.
由于各种原因，我们正处于这个过度自我关注的时期。
It's costing young people.
这让年轻人付出了代价。
It makes them anxious.
这让他们感到焦虑。
And they got to go dance.
他们必须去跳舞。
They got to hear some music.
他们得听一些音乐。
They got to share stuff and go backpacking or whatever it is and just to get out of the self.
他们必须分享东西，去背包旅行或者其他什么，只是为了摆脱自我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。
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此快照可深入了解您的心脏健康、激素健康、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。
They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.
他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。
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For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.
例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。
As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did.
因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，而且确实如此。
In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.
在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。
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我的血脂现在回到了我想要的范围内。
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Function 提供的那种全面的实验室测试对健康非常重要，虽然我已经这样做了很多年，但它总是过于复杂和昂贵。
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但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。
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要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。
The example you gave of sports earlier, I think- Yeah ...
我认为你之前举的体育例子 - 是的......
is an important one, only because I think some people, not me, but some people will be like, "All right, I don't really want to go camping or backpacking." Yeah.
是一个重要的问题，只是因为我认为有些人，不是我，但有些人会说，“好吧，我真的不想去露营或背包旅行。”是的。
I do.
我愿意。
I spend as much time in Yosemite as I can.
我尽可能多地待在优胜美地。
The dancing, concert, maybe that's not for them.
跳舞、音乐会，也许这些都不适合他们。
I do think I'm not a big professional sports fan.
我确实认为我不是一个专业的体育迷。
Yeah.
是的。
I like a few things, but it is kind of interesting to put this lens on when I see a game.
我喜欢一些东西，但是当我看比赛时戴上这个镜头有点有趣。
One of our members of our podcast team that's not here today is just obsessively excited about professional football- Yeah ...
我们播客团队的一位成员今天不在场，他只是对职业足球感到非常兴奋——是的......
and Seattle Seahawks.
和西雅图海鹰队。
Yeah.
是的。
So this was a big year for him.
所以今年对他来说是重要的一年。
And I have to believe that when he goes to see his favorite team play in the Super Bowl and win the Super Bowl, that it's not just about his relationship to the team.
我必须相信，当他去看他最喜欢的球队在超级碗比赛并赢得超级碗时，这不仅仅是他与球队的关系。
It's transcendent.
这是超越的。
It's about being a kid, and everyone else there in a Seahawks jersey is like, they must feel a connection.
这是关于作为一个孩子，而其他穿着海鹰队球衣的人就像，他们必须感受到一种联系。
Totally.
完全。
Because they presumably, the super fans know that the other super fans know the history.
因为他们想必，超级球迷知道其他超级球迷也知道历史。
Yeah.
是的。
They know how important this is.
他们知道这有多重要。
Yeah.
是的。
They know all the trials and tribulations of the team, and on and on.
他们知道团队的所有考验和磨难，等等。
And so it's, gosh, it's so different.
所以，天哪，它是如此不同。
I'm just realizing, it's the furthest thing from doing a PhD in the sciences.
我刚刚意识到，这是距离获得科学博士学位最遥远的事情。
But folks, doing a PhD in the sciences is a lot of fun.
但是各位，攻读科学博士学位很有趣。
It's a hell of a lot of work, and there's nothing else quite like it.
这是一项繁重的工作，没有什么比这更好的了。
It's irreplaceable.
它是不可替代的。
It is.
这是。
I wouldn't redo it for any other way, but it's a very solitary thing.
我不会以任何其他方式重做它，但这是一件非常孤独的事情。
It is.
这是。
You cross the finish line, your advisor's there, your family comes, but it is a tunnel this big.
你冲过终点线，你的顾问在那里，你的家人也来了，但这是一条这么大的隧道。
Going to the Super Bowl to watch your favorite team play is you're going through the tunnel with millions of people.
去超级碗观看你最喜欢的球队的比赛，就像你和数百万人一起穿过隧道一样。
One of the joys of awe science, we gathered stories of awe from 26 countries, and it's one of my favorite parts of this research.
敬畏科学的乐趣之一是，我们收集了来自 26 个国家的敬畏故事，这是这项研究中我最喜欢的部分之一。
And this is India and Brazil and Poland and Chile and Mexico and Japan and South Korea and Russia.
这是印度、巴西、波兰、智利、墨西哥、日本、韩国和俄罗斯。
I mean, everybody.
我的意思是，大家。
We brought them in, got these stories.
我们把他们带进来，得到这些故事。
Like, "What is vast and mysterious?
就像，“什么是广阔而神秘的？
What gives you goosebumps?
什么让你起鸡皮疙瘩？
What's amazing or awesome to you?" And when you get stories from Brazil or Argentina, they're going to tell you about football.
有什么事情对你来说是令人惊奇或了不起的？”当你听到来自巴西或阿根廷的故事时，他们会告诉你关于足球的故事。
And when you get stories from parts of the United States, they're going to talk about American football and baseball.
当你从美国部分地区听到故事时，他们会谈论美式橄榄球和棒球。
You get stories from Boston, there's going to be a Red Sox story.
你会听到来自波士顿的故事，其中将会有一个红袜队的故事。
And we have not studied sports in my emotion science because most emotion scientists are not good athletes.
我们在情感科学中没有研究体育，因为大多数情感科学家都不是优秀的运动员。
They're picked last in grammar school.
他们在文法学校最后被选中。
They're grouchy about sports, and yet it's super emotional.
他们对运动很不满，但又非常情绪化。
And I will tell you a story that has science and personal wisdom.
我会告诉你一个既有科学又有个人智慧的故事。
As I gathered these stories, like, God, part of collective effervescence, just like Taylor Swift or being in a punk mosh pit is also sports.
当我收集这些故事时，上帝啊，这是集体欢腾的一部分，就像泰勒·斯威夫特一样，或者在朋克摩什坑里也是运动。
And it is awesome to follow a sports team and be there live.
跟随一支运动队并现场观看真是太棒了。
And there's this great obscure sociology paper that said being a fan of the Pittsburgh Steelers is like being in a religion because you have your rituals.
还有一篇不起眼的社会学论文说，成为匹兹堡钢人队的球迷就像信仰一个宗教，因为你有自己的仪式。
They have these towels they swing around.
他们有这些毛巾，可以四处晃动。
You think of yourself as the Steeler nation.
你认为自己是斯蒂尔国家。
They talk about godlike experiences on the field.
他们谈论球场上神圣的经历。
They have these spiritual moments where in freezing days, they'll take off their clothes and cheer and cry together.
他们有这样的精神时刻，在寒冷的日子里，他们会脱掉衣服，一起欢呼，一起哭泣。
And I was teaching this recently, and there were two Steeler fans in the audience, and they're like, "That's exactly it." But I'll tell you more.
我最近在教这个，观众中有两个斯蒂尔队的球迷，他们说，“就是这样。”但我会告诉你更多。
Everywhere you go, if you're a fan, a Steeler fan, there are Steeler bars that you can go to.
无论你走到哪里，如果你是钢人队的球迷，你都可以去钢人队的酒吧。
And when the Steelers play, there are going to be Steelers fans, and if you're a kid and the Steelers lose, somebody who's old will tell you, "I remember when we lost in 1983, and we'll recover." We'll have this expansion of time.
当钢人队比赛时，会有钢人队球迷，如果你还是个孩子，而钢人队输了，某个年长的人会告诉你，“我记得 1983 年我们输了，我们会恢复过来。”我们将会有这样的时间扩展。
It was so rich to me.
这对我来说太丰富了。
It was like, we love sports.
就像，我们热爱运动。
Sports, the Olympics are old.
体育、奥运会都是老事了。
They're 3,000 years old.
它们已有 3000 岁了。
The ball court games in the Mayan traditions were amazing ways to gather community and become collective, right?
玛雅传统中的球场游戏是聚集社区和成为集体的奇妙方式，对吧？
So it was really eye-opening for me just to sense the awesomeness of sports.
所以，仅仅感受到运动的精彩就让我大开眼界。
And one of my great joys of writing the book was to talk with Steve Kerr, who was coaching the Warriors at the time.
写这本书的一大乐趣就是与当时执教勇士队的史蒂夫·科尔交谈。
He's a righteous guy.
他是一个正义的人。
He is a person of truth, and just getting a sense of how awesome it is to, I mean, for him to coach a game, and the Warriors were in this amazing period, and look up into the stands and 10,000 people are dancing because of your coaching.
他是一个诚实的人，我的意思是，让他来指导一场比赛是多么棒的事情，而勇士队正处于这个令人惊叹的时期，抬头看向看台，有一万人因为你的指导而跳舞。
I was like
我当时就像
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
That's pretty good.
那很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, he's really tapped in, isn't he?
是啊，他真的被吸引了，不是吗？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, he is.
是的，他是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's a meditator, and wildlife experience and-
他是一位冥想者，也有野生动物经验，而且——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And trauma early.
And trauma early.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
His dad.
他的父亲。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Losing his dad.
失去他的父亲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And that orienting him to what really matters.
这让他专注于真正重要的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm thinking about the things that inhibit awe-
我正在思考那些抑制敬畏的事情——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but I'm also thinking about solutions.
但我也在思考解决方案。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It sprang to mind that, it's funny.
突然想到这一点，这很有趣。
Sometimes I get tacked to ice baths for some- Look, folks, that was Wim.
有时我会为了某些人而被困在冰浴里——看，伙计们，那是维姆。
Right?
正确的？
I mean, that was Wim.
我是说，那是维姆。
I mean, sure, I've done some cold plunges.
我的意思是，当然，我已经做过一些冷跳水了。
I like-
我喜欢-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I got to do them.
我必须做这些事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do the cold.
I do the cold.
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
They sound good.
他们听起来不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's fun.
是的，这很有趣。
I mean, it's psychologically painful, and you feel better afterwards.
我的意思是，这会带来心理上的痛苦，但之后你会感觉好多了。
And it'll make anyone mentally stronger because cold is a-
它会让任何人的精神变得更强大，因为寒冷是——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
universal stressor.
普遍的压力源。
But it gets kind of a bad rap, mostly because people don't like doing it.
但它的名声不太好，主要是因为人们不喜欢这样做。
Everyone loves the sauna.
每个人都喜欢桑拿。
It's kind of funny.
这有点好笑。
Everyone's cool with sauna.
每个人都享受桑拿带来的凉爽。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I love the saunas.
I love the saunas.
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the Finns love the sauna-
芬兰人喜欢桑拿——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and it's a social thing for them.
这对他们来说是一件社交事情。
And one thing that I think has been overlooked, and it just sprang to mind now-
我认为有一件事被忽视了，现在才突然出现在我的脑海里——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so I overlooked it as well, is that there's this thing that's wonderful about experiences that we can have with other people, but that we can also do on our own, and when we do them on our own, we know other people are doing it on their own, too.
所以我也忽略了这一点，那就是，我们可以与其他人一起经历，但我们也可以自己做，当我们自己做的时候，我们知道其他人也在自己做，这是一件很棒的事情。
And so it's a different version-
所以这是一个不同的版本-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
That's cool
太酷了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of what we've been talking about.
我们一直在谈论的事情。
And the, quote-unquote, "health and wellness community," they take some heat.
而“健康与保健社区”，他们也受到了一些关注。
People go, "Oh, it's all about supplements.
人们会说，“哦，这都是关于补充剂的。
They're all about cold plunges." And I've got a particular finger I hold up when I hear that, but it's not about that.
它们都是关于寒流的。”当我听到这个消息时，我会举起一根特别的手指，但这与此无关。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's this deeper layer-
还有更深的一层——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's much more important that's formed over the last, I would say, five to 10 years.
我想说的是，过去五到十年形成的这一点更为重要。
Because it used to be meditation, breathwork.
因为它曾经是冥想、呼吸。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Eselin grit.
艾斯林砂砾。
Love Eselin.
Love Eselin.
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Same here.
同样在这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing, incredible place.
令人惊叹的、令人难以置信的地方。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Historic.
历史性的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Historic, and many important things actually happened there that people don't even realize in terms of shifting world politics-
历史性的、许多重要的事情实际上发生在那里，人们甚至没有意识到世界政治的变化——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Oh my God
天哪
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and world peace.
和世界和平。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That maybe some-
That maybe some-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
They brought the Russians in there.
他们把俄罗斯人带到了那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For example, to end the Cold War.
例如，结束冷战。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean...
我的意思是...
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And Gorbachev.
And Gorbachev.
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, incredible.
是的，难以置信。
Right?
正确的？
But so it used to be these isolated pockets, but now people get together to sauna.
但以前都是这些孤立的口袋，但现在人们聚集在一起去桑拿。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People get together to do breathwork.
人们聚在一起做呼吸练习。
People get together to cold plunge, and of course, for thousands of years, humans have been doing this.
人们聚集在一起进行冷跳，当然，几千年来，人类一直在这样做。
This is not a new thing.
这不是什么新鲜事。
And people look at that and they go, "This is wacky," or, "It's about the marketing of this." Actually, I think that there's a connection that's formed among people who want to take good care of their health.
人们看到后会说，“这很古怪”，或者“这是关于这个的营销”。事实上，我认为想要照顾好自己健康的人们之间已经形成了一种联系。
They want to have some control over their state, because otherwise the world will take control of it for you.
他们希望对自己的国家有一定的控制权，否则世界就会替你控制它。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And meditating is a very solitary experience for most people.
对于大多数人来说，冥想是一种非常孤独的经历。
So there's something pretty nice about going to a banya.
所以去桑拿是一件很美好的事情。
I love banyas.
I love banyas.
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Russian banyas.
Russian banyas.
And then also doing the sauna on your own or cold plunge on your own.
然后还可以自己洗桑拿或自己泡冷水。
And I think that what it builds is a community that is linked on social media.
我认为它建立的是一个通过社交媒体链接的社区。
So from now on, when I see people doing things that I go, "Oh, cool.
所以从现在开始，当我看到人们做一些事情时，我就会说：“哦，太酷了。
I like a bit of that.
我喜欢一点。
I don't maybe do it every day, or I do that every day, too, get to see my morning sunlight." The notion that there's a community being built, that was the original intention of social media.
我可能不会每天都这样做，或者我也每天都这样做，以便看到早晨的阳光。”正在建立一个社区的概念，这就是社交媒体的初衷。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I agree.
我同意。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I think social media can have this dominant negative effect-
所以我认为社交媒体可能会产生这种显着的负面影响——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on awe and day-to-day experience.
敬畏和日常经验。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Profoundly.
深刻。
So...
所以...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So a question is, are there ways, surely there are, but how could we build more of a sense of this communal feeling, leveraging what people are already doing.
所以问题是，有没有办法，当然有，但我们如何才能利用人们已经在做的事情来建立更多的这种共同感觉。
They're already on their phones and scrolling.
他们已经在玩手机了。
Hopefully, they're also doing things to benefit their health, to make them feel less isolated, because as Jonathan Haidt and others have pointed-
希望他们也能做一些有益于健康的事情，让他们感觉不那么孤立，因为正如乔纳森·海特和其他人所指出的那样——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
out quite correctly, it can really fracture us into the-
非常正确，它确实可以让我们陷入——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the me, the ego version.
the me, the ego version.
But it's kind of the perfect venue-
但这是一个完美的场地——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
It is
它是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to connect people also.
也连接人们。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I agree.
我同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I don't expect you to come up with any answers right on the fly, but I feel like it's not going anywhere.
所以我不指望你能立即得出任何答案，但我觉得它不会有任何进展。
So how could we build or glean a more sense of a community through things that we're doing, actually doing in our daily lives, is I think a question that's worth exploring.
因此，我认为我们如何通过我们正在做的事情、在日常生活中实际做的事情来建立或收集更多的社区意识，是一个值得探索的问题。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
It's profoundly important.
这非常重要。
The preceding question is, what are the enemies of awe?
前面的问题是，敬畏的敌人是什么？
What gets in the way or the barriers?
是什么阻碍了我们？
And you just nailed a couple is online life.
你刚刚确定了网上生活的一对。
And I think Jonathan Haidt is right that it's not only anxiety producing, but we don't think about the opportunity costs of, like, it deprives me of awe.
我认为乔纳森·海特是对的，这不仅会产生焦虑，而且我们不会考虑机会成本，比如它剥夺了我的敬畏感。
And in our study of 2,600 people around the world, what makes them feel awe, no one ever said being on Meta or Facebook or Instagram.
在我们对世界各地 2,600 人的研究中，没有人说过什么让他们感到敬畏，是在 Meta、Facebook 或 Instagram 上。
There are a couple worries I have about online life, and I'm kind of working on this now.
我对网络生活有一些担忧，我现在正在解决这个问题。
And one is the content itself, which it's been algorithmically designed.
一是内容本身，它是通过算法设计的。
I was at Facebook when some of those algorithms, I was advising there, were set in place of making people hate each other and not demonstrate all the wonderful things about human beings, which are ample.
我在 Facebook 时，我在那里建议，其中一些算法的设置是为了让人们互相憎恨，而不是展示人类的所有美好事物，而这些美好事物是充足的。
And then online life disrupts sharing, and the technologies of today have disrupted sharing.
然后，在线生活扰乱了共享，而当今的技术也扰乱了共享。
So we don't share music like we used to share.
所以我们不再像以前那样分享音乐。
We used to listen to music together.
我们过去常常一起听音乐。
That's down.
那就下来了。
Going to movies is down 40%, right?
看电影的次数减少了 40%，对吧？
That used to be a very important collective cultural experience.
这曾经是一种非常重要的集体文化体验。
"Did you see the latest Scorsese or Pixar or whatever?" Now it's streaming, right?
“你看过最新的斯科塞斯或皮克斯的作品吗？”现在正在直播，对吗？
So I really worry about that, and I think the next challenge in the technological world and the social media and the platforms is, like you said, how do you enable the sharing of experience?
所以我真的很担心这一点，我认为技术世界、社交媒体和平台的下一个挑战是，就像你说的，如何实现经验分享？
You are absolutely right.
你是绝对正确的。
A lot of what we do for our bodies in the wellness space has a massively important community basis to it, where suddenly you're not meditating and breathing, but you're also sharing your mind and your experience.
我们在健康空间中为我们的身体做的很多事情都有一个非常重要的社区基础，在那里你突然不再冥想和呼吸，但你也在分享你的想法和你的经验。
You're not ...
你不是...
listening to music, you're sharing an understanding of the music together and its cultural history.
听音乐，你们一起分享对音乐及其文化历史的理解。
One of my favorite examples is farmers' markets.
我最喜欢的例子之一是农贸市场。
They were nonexistent in the '90s, right?
它们在 90 年代不存在，对吗？
And they used to be very common in American culture.
它们曾经在美国文化中非常常见。
And now there are 9,000 farmers' markets growing.
现在有 9,000 个农贸市场在不断增长。
And yeah, people go to buy kale, and get the honey, and the fresh bread or whatever, but they're also going because it's community.
是的，人们去买羽衣甘蓝，买蜂蜜，新鲜面包什么的，但他们也会去，因为这是社区。
It's profound community.
这是一个深刻的社区。
And we derive a lot of benefits from that.
我们从中获得了很多好处。
Profound benefits.
深远的好处。
Ten years of life expectancy, community.
预期寿命十年，社区。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
10 years.
10年。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
10 years.
10年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My goodness, there's so much obsession these days around what sport allows you to live the longest.
我的天哪，现在人们对什么运动能让人活得最久很着迷。
Turns out it's pole vaulting, which most people aren't going to do.
原来这是撑杆跳，大多数人都不会做。
Sprinting, gymnastics, the stuff that involves a lot of jumping and landing.
短跑、体操等需要大量跳跃和落地的项目。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And-
还有——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and fast-twitch activity.
和快肌活动。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are a bunch of other features there about who's biased to go into those sports and whatnot, but-
还有很多关于谁倾向于参加这些运动之类的其他特征，但是-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think it's in keeping with this idea that getting your heart rate way, way up and moving as quickly as you safely can once a week at something-
我认为这与这个想法是一致的，每周一次在某件事上尽可能安全地提高你的心率——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Cool
酷
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is probably a good idea.
也许是个好主意。
But the greatest benefit seen there is something like five to eight years.
但最大的好处是大约五到八年。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you're talking about a 10-year benefit.
所以你说的是10年的福利。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Ten years.
十年了。
And that's a meta-analysis of 350,000 participants, so you can go to the bank with that.
这是对 350,000 名参与者的荟萃分析，所以你可以带着它去银行。
Social community, very good for the body.
社交社会，对身体很有好处。
I think it's the greatest challenge of our social media and our platforms, and I've advised at Facebook 2010 to 2015, Google, Pinterest, little bit of Apple, and I keep telling them, "This is the singular challenge." And it's hard.
我认为这是我们社交媒体和平台面临的最大挑战，我曾在 2010 年至 2015 年期间为 Facebook、谷歌、Pinterest、苹果的一些公司提供过建议，我一直告诉他们，“这是独一无二的挑战。”这很难。
Technologies are asynchronous.
技术是异步的。
"Hey, I send you a text," and 18 hours later I hear from you.
“嘿，我给你发了一条短信”，18 小时后我收到了你的消息。
You're not making eye contact.
你没有进行目光接触。
The visual connection is degraded.
The visual connection is degraded.
Steve Pinker observed rightly, so like when I'm on Zoom, I have to look down to see the camera or I look at the screen, so my eye contact is going down.
史蒂夫·平克（Steve Pinker）的观察是正确的，就像当我使用 Zoom 时，我必须低头才能看到相机或看屏幕，所以我的目光接触会减少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I'm not making eye contact like we are.
我不会像我们一样进行眼神交流。
It's just the technology works against it, and I think it's the hard problem of the social media platforms is, can they do what you're aspirationally asking for, which is get us to feel connected?
只是技术与之相悖，我认为社交媒体平台的难题是，它们能否满足您所渴望的要求，即让我们感到联系？
Mark Zuckerberg, the original statement about Facebook was open and connected, and I think they failed.
马克·扎克伯格，关于 Facebook 的最初声明是开放和互联的，我认为他们失败了。
And I think it's the challenge of our times.
我认为这是我们时代的挑战。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know Mark a bit, and I trust he wants that.
我对马克有一点了解，我相信他希望如此。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I really do.
我真的这么做。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know some people will push back on that statement, but I actually know that he wants that, and I know some of the folks in the leadership at Instagram, they want that.
我知道有些人会反驳这一说法，但我实际上知道他想要这样，而且我知道 Instagram 领导层的一些人也想要这样。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These people actually have very healthy-
These people actually have very healthy-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
personal lives.
个人生活。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They understand the value of connection, both at the level of the family, friendships, but also at large.
他们了解联系的价值，无论是在家庭、友谊层面，还是在整个层面。
They want that.
他们想要那个。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that maybe, I'm being optimistic here, but maybe AI will offer an opportunity for that-
我想也许我对此很乐观，但也许人工智能会为此提供一个机会——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as opposed to divorcing us from gathering-
as opposed to divorcing us from gathering-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and seeing facial expressions and hearing-
and seeing facial expressions and hearing-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
voices together or observing other things.
voices together or observing other things.
I do think that right now, the way that most social media experiences land is the exact opposite of awe.
我确实认为，现在大多数社交媒体体验土地的方式与敬畏完全相反。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I will say that because-
我会这么说是因为——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I can say that with a fair degree of certainty because I spend a good amount of time on social media teaching, learning-
我可以相当肯定地说，因为我花了很多时间在社交媒体上教学、学习——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and looking for entertainment, trying not to get-
寻找娱乐，尽量不得到——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
rage baited or-
愤怒引诱或——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
numbing out.
麻木了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those are the two things I look out for, rage baiting and numbing out.
这是我所关注的两件事：愤怒和麻木。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Well put.
说得好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a version of social media that's happening right now where we're going further and further into our silos.
现在正在出现一种社交媒体版本，我们正在越来越深入地进入我们的孤岛。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I don't think it has to be that.
But I don't think it has to be that.
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Not at all.
一点也不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't.
我不知道。
I think it could be really leverage to connect people.
我认为它确实可以成为联系人们的杠杆。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
When I started advising at Facebook 2010 to '20, it was like Arab Spring and democracy was spreading, and in many ways we've had this great democratization of things, of people sharing music.
当我开始在 2010 年至 20 世纪在 Facebook 提供咨询时，就像阿拉伯之春一样，民主正在蔓延，在很多方面，我们已经实现了事物的伟大民主化，人们分享音乐。
Instantaneously I can hear music from any part of the world, which that's profound, and visual art, and knowledge, and podcasts.
我可以立即听到来自世界任何地方的深刻音乐、视觉艺术、知识和播客。
And we've got to be nuanced about this, but we do need to think intentionally about design.
我们必须对此进行细致入微，但我们确实需要有意识地思考设计。
I really worry about the privileging of hate, I forgot what you called it, but that has been privileged.
我真的很担心仇恨的特权，我忘了你叫它什么，但这已经是特权了。
And that's not human nature.
And that's not human nature.
We are not all trolls and tracking people, and that is a degradation of who we are, and I think science would guide us in many ways to avoid that.
我们并不都是巨魔和追踪者，这是对我们身份的退化，我认为科学会在很多方面指导我们避免这种情况。
So I think we're in this big reflection period about how to redesign, and I hope they listen to the social science.
所以我认为我们正处于关于如何重新设计的大反思时期，我希望他们倾听社会科学的声音。
It has a lot of good things to say.
It has a lot of good things to say.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've had this thought that the way social media is now-
我曾经有过这样的想法，社交媒体现在的样子——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's the direct opposite of awe-
it's the direct opposite of awe-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for the following reason.
出于以下原因。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awe-inspiring experiences, you never forget them.
令人惊叹的经历，你永远不会忘记它们。
You never forget them.
你永远不会忘记他们。
We could spend 15 hours talking about first concert, second concerts, first love, first kiss, first breakup, which is its own form of awe, like shit.
我们可以花15个小时谈论第一场音乐会、第二场音乐会、初恋、初吻、第一次分手，这就是敬畏的一种形式，就像狗屎一样。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's this flip side to this love thing, right?
爱情也有它的反面，对吧？
There's all that.
There's all that.
I sometimes do the test of myself.
I sometimes do the test of myself.
I go, "Okay, I spent I don't know how much time on social media yesterday, but do I remember anything specific?"
我说：“好吧，我不知道昨天我在社交媒体上花了多少时间，但我记得什么具体的事情吗？”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think I do.
我不这么认为。
I don't think I remember anything specific.
I don't think I remember anything specific.
But there was tons of sensory input, a fair amount of time.
但有大量的感官输入和相当长的时间。
I don't remember a damn thing.
我什么都不记得了。
And so that's scary.
所以这很可怕。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
It is scary.
这很可怕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because the only thing that resembles that-
Because the only thing that resembles that-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is drugs of abuse.
是滥用药物。
And I'm very fortunate that I don't have a drug thing.
我很幸运我没有吸毒。
I never felt drawn to them in a way that I felt like I couldn't escape from them, or same with alcohol.
我从来没有被它们所吸引，以至于我觉得我无法摆脱它们，或者酒精也一样。
Easy clip for me to not drink, I will say.
Easy clip for me to not drink, I will say.
But my friends who have had real challenges-
But my friends who have had real challenges-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with alcohol and substances-
与酒精和物质-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they'll tell you, it's this super compelling thing, but then you don't have anything to say about it or for it.
他们会告诉你，这是一件非常引人注目的事情，但你却对此无话可说或对此无话可说。
It's just a space-time disintegration, and not the space-time disintegration of psychedelics, which may have some benefits.
只是时空崩解，并不是迷幻药的时空崩解，或许会有一些好处。
We'll talk about that.
我们会讨论这个。
So to me, that's the problem with social media is-
所以对我来说，社交媒体的问题是——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there's nothing memorable about yesterday's social media.
昨天的社交媒体没有什么值得纪念的。
And I do think that the people who build it want it to be impactful on the day-to-day scale, but also-
我确实认为构建它的人希望它对日常规模产生影响，而且 -
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of course, they'd want it to be memorable.
of course, they'd want it to be memorable.
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Let's hope.
让我们希望吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some kid should be talking about, like you're talking about Laurel Canyon.
应该有一些孩子在谈论，就像你在谈论劳雷尔峡谷一样。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I don't know if they're going to feel that way.
但我不知道他们是否会有这样的感觉。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Well, one of the things I'm really interested in right now, Andrew, is awe design.
安德鲁，我现在真正感兴趣的事情之一就是敬畏设计。
Right?
正确的？
And I'm working with GEHL Architecture in Copenhagen.
我正在哥本哈根的 GEHL Architecture 工作。
How do you design cities for more awe?
如何设计城市才能更加令人敬畏？
It's not hard, and it's good for people, right?
It's not hard, and it's good for people, right?
A little bit of music, a little bit of green space, a little bit of art.
一点音乐，一点绿色空间，一点艺术。
Get people looking at each other and talking and buzzing, right?
让人们互相看着对方，说话，嗡嗡作响，对吗？
Easy to do.
容易做。
And I think you've just laid out, and someone could write a manifesto like, maybe my life on the smartphone is the antithesis of awe.
我认为你刚刚提出，有人可以写一份宣言，比如，也许我在智能手机上的生活是敬畏的对立面。
It's small.
它很小。
Awe is vast.
Awe is vast.
It's sped up.
速度加快了啊
Awe slows things down.
Awe slows things down.
It has a fragmentation to it.
它有一个碎片。
Awe integrates.
敬畏融入其中。
Right?
正确的？
It's about micro things.
这是关于微观的事情。
Awe is about systems.
敬畏是关于系统的。
Like, when you feel awe towards music, it's like, I get it all here right now.
就像，当你对音乐感到敬畏时，就像，我现在就明白了。
Its content is not inspiring very often.
它的内容并不经常鼓舞人心。
And it all could be.
这一切都可能是。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes it is.
有时是这样。
I think that the-
我认为——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, I agree
是的，我同意
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that the space-time aperture that we talked about before-
就是我们之前谈到的时空孔径——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think the problem with social media is actually its power to bring the whole space time into an aperture this big.
我认为社交媒体的问题实际上在于它有能力将整个时空带入这么大的孔径中。
I actually think that it has to do, crazy hypothesis, happy to be wrong, I actually think the whole problem with it has to do with the fact that it brings long timescales, past, present, and future, different frame rates into one real-world visual aperture.
我实际上认为它必须这样做，疯狂的假设，乐于犯错，我实际上认为它的整个问题与这样一个事实有关：它将过去、现在和未来的长时间尺度、不同的帧速率带入一个现实世界的视觉孔径。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I haven't been to The Sphere in Las Vegas.
因为我还没去过拉斯维加斯的The Sphere。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But friends of mine who are musicians who love live music-
但我的朋友们都是热爱现场音乐的音乐家-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who are producers, who love live music, tell me it is incredible.
他们是制作人，热爱现场音乐，告诉我这太不可思议了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's, in some cases, the live band is there.
在某些情况下，现场乐队就在那里。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
It's the technology.
这就是技术。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in other cases, they're not.
而在其他情况下，情况并非如此。
And so there's no reason why that technology should be awesome for, again, here we go, no better word for awe than awesome.
因此，没有理由说这项技术应该很棒，再次强调，没有什么比“很棒”更好的词来形容“敬畏”了。
So just going to stick with it.
所以就坚持下去吧。
Going to roll with it.
将与它一起滚动。
There's no reason why digital can't be awe-inspiring.
数字没有理由不令人惊叹。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah, it should, and we just have to take a step back in these conversations, right?
是的，应该的，我们只需要在这些对话中退后一步，对吧？
There's new work out about AI helping medical doctors, and the writer of this book coming out of UC San Francisco is like, "It's like having the best brain trust about medicine right with you all the time.
有关于人工智能帮助医生的新工作，这本书的作者来自加州大学旧金山分校，他说：“这就像一直拥有医学方面最好的智囊团一样。
Who wouldn't want that?" And I think let's remember that, and yeah, I think that's the challenge is to have these AI and the devices that it is manifest on get us to what's awesome.
谁不想要这样呢？”我想让我们记住这一点，是的，我认为挑战在于让这些人工智能和它所体现的设备让我们实现令人敬畏的事情。
And we'll see.
我们拭目以待。
I hope so.
我希望如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Our Place.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商“我们的地方”。
Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFAS, or forever chemicals, are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.
令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及餐具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。
As I've discussed before on this podcast, these PFAS, or forever chemicals, like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
正如我之前在这个播客中讨论过的那样，这些 PFAS 或永久化学物质，如特氟隆，与荷尔蒙破坏、肠道微生物群破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。
So it's very important to avoid them.
因此，避免它们非常重要。
This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.
这就是为什么我是《我们的地方》的超级粉丝。
Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free.
我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，不含 PFAS 和毒素。
I particularly love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.
我特别喜欢他们的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。
It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.
这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。
Instead, it uses pure titanium.
相反，它使用纯钛。
That means it has no harmful forever chemicals, and it does not degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time.
这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去不粘效果。
I cook my eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.
我几乎每天早上都会用 Titanium Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。
The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.
该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪而不会粘在锅上。
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目前，Our Place 正在进行本季最大规模的促销活动。
You can save up to 40% sitewide now through April 12th.
即日起至 4 月 12 日，您可在全站范围内享受高达 40% 的折扣。
Just head to fromourplace.com/huberman.
只需前往 fromourplace.com/huberman。
Again, that's fromourplace.com/huberman to save up to 40%.
同样，来自ourplace.com/huberman 最多可节省 40%。
Can we talk about embarrassment?
我们能谈谈尴尬吗？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And-
还有——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
My other favorite emotion.
我最喜欢的另一种情感。
Where I began my career.
我的职业生涯开始的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was guys, right?
是男生，对吧？
Guys-
伙计们-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
specifically teasing one another.
专门互相戏弄。
I definitely experienced that, and I definitely participated in it in a benevolent way.
我确实经历过这一点，而且我也确实以仁慈的方式参与其中。
But the teasing that happens in groups of good male friends can be pretty brutal.
但在一群好男性朋友中发生的戏弄可能是相当残酷的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there's a pleasure in it most of the time.
但大多数时候都充满乐趣。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what's that about?
那是关于什么的？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I know.
我知道。
Well, it all begins, really, in when I started scientifically to depart from the Ekman canon, if you will, of those six emotions we talked about earlier.
好吧，这一切实际上是从我开始科学地脱离艾克曼经典（如果你愿意的话）我们之前讨论过的那六种情绪开始的。
And I was doing a project in his lab, and we were startling people and studying the startle response, a seven-muscle movement motor pattern built into the nervous system.
我在他的实验室里做一个项目，我们让人们感到震惊并研究惊吓反应，这是神经系统中内置的七块肌肉的运动模式。
And I noticed people got embarrassed after they were startled unexpectedly.
我注意到人们在意外地受到惊吓后变得尴尬。
You'd blast them with a noise out of the blue in the lab, and they'd be like, "Whoa, I think I spit and peed my pants," or whatever.
你会在实验室里用突然的噪音轰击他们，他们会说，“哇，我想我吐口水，尿裤子了，”或者其他什么。
And they show this response, and I took it to Ekman, and it's the blush, and people avert their gaze, and they look away, and they hide their face.
他们表现出这样的反应，我把它带给埃克曼，那就是脸红，人们转移视线，他们把目光移开，他们隐藏自己的脸。
And he's like, "That's a motor pattern of emotion.
他说，“这是一种情绪的运动模式。
You should go study it." And I did.
你应该去研究一下。”我做到了。
And then I started to notice, and there's a really rich literature on that, and Darwin wrote about this, that a person's embarrassment is a sign of their commitment to the collective.
然后我开始注意到，关于这一点的文献非常丰富，达尔文也写过这一点，一个人的尴尬是他们对集体承诺的标志。
Like, "Man, I called you by the wrong name," or, "I farted in the yoga class," or whatever it is, and I'm embarrassed.
比如，“伙计，我叫错了你的名字”，或者“我在瑜伽课上放了屁”，或者诸如此类，我很尴尬。
Like, "I'm sorry, man.
就像，“对不起，伙计。
I apologize." That really matters.
我道歉。”这真的很重要。
And when you see people get embarrassed, you like them more, and you trust them more, and you give resources to them, and you think they're a good group member.
当你看到人们感到尴尬时，你会更喜欢他们，你会更信任他们，你会给他们资源，你会认为他们是一个很好的团队成员。
And then I was like...
然后我就像...
I've played a lot of pickup basketball in my life, thousands of games.
我一生中打过很多场临时篮球比赛，上千场比赛。
And you're banging into-- And there's just a lot of teasing and taunting.
你会撞到——而且有很多戏弄和嘲讽。
And people I admire, great athletes tease and taunt.
我敬佩的人，伟大的运动员都嘲笑和嘲笑。
It's just part of what we do when we're banging into each other.
这只是我们互相碰撞时所做的一部分。
And I started to put it together, the right kind of teasing within a collective, you're kind of provoking people to see if they care about the group.
我开始把它放在一起，在集体中进行正确的戏弄，你会激发人们看看他们是否关心这个团体。
Right?
正确的？
And then the wrong kind of teasing, which we documented in our labs, that's bullying and harassment, and we can pinpoint, that's inappropriate.
然后，我们在实验室中记录了错误的嘲笑行为，即欺凌和骚扰，我们可以明确指出，这是不恰当的。
You're not keeping people in the group.
你没有让人们留在团体中。
You're excluding them or humiliating them.
你排斥他们或羞辱他们。
So we did this study.
所以我们做了这项研究。
It was one of my first studies.
这是我的第一个研究。
We brought four fraternity guys in each interaction from this fraternity house at the University of Wisconsin, and we gave them each nicknames, or we gave them each initials, and we had them make up nicknames based on the initials.
我们在威斯康星大学兄弟会的每次互动中带来了四名兄弟会成员，我们给他们每个绰号，或者我们给他们每个名字缩写，然后我们让他们根据名字缩写编造昵称。
So two letters of a nickname were AD, and I'm not sure I can say what the nicknames were like, but another drunk, and it gets pretty profane.
所以昵称的两个字母是AD，我不确定我能说出这些昵称是什么样的，但又一个喝醉了，这变得相当亵渎。
And so we let them tease each other.
所以我们让他们互相取笑。
And they start teasing each other, and they are really like, this is young men coming out of a fraternity house teasing each other.
他们开始互相戏弄，他们真的就像，这是从兄弟会里出来的年轻人互相戏弄。
There are funny stories.
有有趣的故事。
People got embarrassed.
人们都尴尬了。
The stories and the teasing was kind of about like, "I'm going to accuse you of something that you shouldn't do in this group." Like pass out drunk naked in the streets of Wisconsin.
这些故事和戏弄有点像，“我要指控你做了一些你不应该在这个群体中做的事情。”就像醉酒后裸体在威斯康星州的街道上昏倒一样。
Don't do that.
不要那样做。
And then they get embarrassed, and they say, "Ah, I'm not going to do that." And what we found is the more that they got embarrassed, the better they liked each other because it's turning to this motor pattern of like, wow, I'm showing you that I care about what you're accusing me of, and I get embarrassed.
然后他们会感到尴尬，他们说：“啊，我不会那样做。”我们发现，他们越感到尴尬，他们就越喜欢对方，因为它正在转向这种运动模式，比如，哇，我在向你展示我关心你指责我的事情，然后我感到尴尬。
You see that in me.
你在我身上看到了这一点。
We become closer.
我们变得更近了。
The guys who are better teasers and that were more playful and funny and made people aware of the norms that mattered to the group, but not really humiliate people, those guys are more popular in the group.
那些善于调侃、更顽皮、更有趣、让人们意识到对团体重要的规范、但又不会真正羞辱别人的人，这些人在团体中更受欢迎。
And that's been replicated.
这已经被复制了。
Just storytelling and ribbing each other.
只是讲故事，互相调侃而已。
And it was part of healthy group functioning.
这是健康团体运作的一部分。
It's just embarrassing each other.
简直就是互相羞辱啊。
You think about roasts.
你想到烤肉。
It's the end of your career.
这是你职业生涯的结束。
Someone's going to talk about your career.
有人会谈论你的职业生涯。
You're going to get hammered.
你会被锤打的。
And it's wonderful.
这太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I fear that day.
我害怕那一天。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And that's part of this phenomenon of we make fun of the people we love the most.
这就是我们取笑我们最爱的人这一现象的一部分。
Siblings, big families with a lot of siblings tease each other like mad, and they joke, and they josh, and they wrestle, and they give each other noogies, and they have nicknames for each other, again, to make sure everybody's aware of what matters and how not to violate those rules.
兄弟姐妹，有很多兄弟姐妹的大家庭疯狂地互相戏弄，他们开玩笑，他们开玩笑，他们摔跤，他们互相给予对方好感，他们互相起绰号，再次确保每个人都知道什么是重要的以及如何不违反这些规则。
So it was fun research.
所以这是一个有趣的研究。
It meant a lot to me.
这对我来说意义重大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I bet.
我敢打赌。
I grew up in big packs of boys.
我是在一群男孩中长大的。
I mean, on my street growing up-
我的意思是，在我成长的街道上-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the skateboarding thing.
还有滑板的事情。
And then science, it was a little bit different.
然后科学，有点不同。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Actually, when I came up, there was more of that.
事实上，当我上来的时候，还有更多这样的事情。
It changed-
它改变了——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I know
我知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
over time-
随着时间的推移-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think for good reasons.
我认为这是有充分理由的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then, of course, there's my podcast team, and people keep telling me the reason I get teased a lot is because they like me.
当然，还有我的播客团队，人们一直告诉我，我经常被取笑的原因是因为他们喜欢我。
But-
但是——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I saw an interesting...
我看到一个有趣的...
Well, two things.
嗯，有两件事。
A former guest on this podcast who's a psychiatrist, who's also very versed in Eastern philosophy, Dr. K, as they call him, said that embarrassment is important because it also signals that you're not a creep.
这个播客的一位前嘉宾是一位精神病学家，也非常精通东方哲学，K 博士（他们这样称呼他）说，尴尬很重要，因为它也表明你不是一个怪人。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially, he was referring to heterosexual relationships where a guy says something trying to flirt, basically, or pick up on someone, and then the woman says something back, and he gets embarrassed.
特别是，他指的是异性恋关系，其中一个男人说了一些话，基本上是试图调情，或者搭讪某人，然后女人又说了一些话，他就会感到尴尬。
He realized he said the wrong thing.
他意识到自己说错话了。
If he doesn't show embarrassment, he's creepy.
如果他不表现出尴尬，他就会令人毛骨悚然。
If he does, it verifies that he has a certain degree of empathy and self-reflection.
如果他这样做了，就证明他有一定程度的同理心和自我反省。
So that was his point, but it feels relevant here.
这就是他的观点，但在这里感觉很重要。
So yeah.
所以是的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And he's right.
他是对的。
Darwin early on wrote about the blush being a sign of your healthy character, your moral virtue almost.
达尔文很早就写道，脸红是健康性格的标志，几乎是道德美德的标志。
And in non-human species, the facial reddening is associated with physical robustness.
在非人类物种中，面部发红与身体强健有关。
And then in humans, we think of it as moral robustness, like, yeah, I care about stuff.
然后在人类中，我们将其视为道德稳健性，就像，是的，我关心事物。
We did work early on, Bob Knight at Berkeley, orbitofrontal patients.
我们很早就开始研究伯克利分校的鲍勃·奈特（Bob Knight）的眶额患者。
The orbitofrontal cortex is in part where your ethical consideration takes place, and if you have damage to that region of the brain through brain trauma, you fall off a motorcycle or fall off a ladder, you don't show embarrassment where you should.
眶额皮质是你进行道德考虑的部分场所，如果你的大脑区域因脑外伤而受损，比如你从摩托车上摔下来或从梯子上摔下来，你就不会在应该表现出尴尬的地方表现出尴尬。
And they feel creepy, if you will, or just like, hey, they're not playing by the rules.
如果你愿意的话，他们会让人感到毛骨悚然，或者只是想，嘿，他们不遵守规则。
So it's a very subtle thing.
所以这是一个非常微妙的事情。
Erving Goffman wrote a lot about it, the great sociologist like Our embarrassment is telling people, "I know what the rules are and I care about them.
欧文·戈夫曼（Erving Goffman）写了很多关于它的文章，像我们这样伟大的社会学家，我们的尴尬是告诉人们，“我知道规则是什么，我关心它们。
I'm committed to them." So your psychiatrist friend is right.
我对他们承诺。”所以你的精神科医生朋友是对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Along the lines of teasing-
沿着戏弄的路线——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
someone I'm proud to call a friend who's also public-facing, Jocko Willink.
我很自豪地称他为乔科·威林克（Jocko Willink），他也是一位面向公众的朋友。
It turns out we're friends for a bunch of reasons, but one of them is that he grew up really into East Coast hardcore music.
事实证明，我们成为朋友有很多原因，但其中之一是他从小就非常喜欢东海岸的硬核音乐。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not a genre I gravitated towards, but there's some marginal overlap-
不是我喜欢的类型，但有一些边缘重叠-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with the types of music I'm into.
与我喜欢的音乐类型。
We've gone to shows together and he put something up.
我们一起去看演出，他放了一些东西。
Every once in a while on social media, somebody posts something that-
每隔一段时间，就会有人在社交媒体上发布一些内容——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
really lands, Naval or Jocko, and Jocko's a man of few words, so I'm going to put more words to it than he was able to.
真正登陆，纳瓦尔或乔科，而乔科是一个寡言的人，所以我要说的比他能说的更多。
But the quote was something like, "If you want to understand," and he's a former Navy SEAL-
但这句话的意思是，“如果你想明白的话，”他是一名前海豹突击队队员——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
SEAL Team operator, most people know that.
海豹突击队的操作员，大多数人都知道。
"But if you want to understand males in groups and healthy masculine friendship, guys are going to tease each other relentlessly in front of each other, but they'll never tease behind somebody's back, and they'll back the other person who they were just teasing in person-
“但如果你想了解群体中的男性和健康的男性友谊，男人们会在彼此面前无情地互相戏弄，但他们永远不会在背后戏弄别人，他们会支持他们刚刚戏弄的另一个人——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they'll buffer them against any kind of criticism." So that's a very interesting kind of contrast there that I think is true.
他们会缓冲他们免受任何形式的批评。”所以这是一种非常有趣的对比，我认为这是正确的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well put.
说得好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not like you tease your friend behind his back.
这不像你在背后取笑你的朋友。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the teasing to his face that actually builds the bond.
正是当着他的面取笑才真正建立了联系。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's another piece of that, which is that you know that that person would back you if you're out of the room.
还有一点是，你知道如果你离开房间，那个人会支持你。
And a couple of friends, all my friends come to mind, but a couple of people who really think about and talk about this loyalty component Jocko was talking about there, Lex Fridman.
我想到了几个朋友，我所有的朋友，但有几个真正思考并谈论乔科在那里谈论的忠诚度组成部分的人，莱克斯·弗里德曼。
It's a critical component to, I'm sure female friendship too, although I only know my own experience, so to male friendship, which is that they can say anything to your face, even harsh criticism, but you know that if you're out of the room, they're not going to cut you down.
我相信女性友谊也是如此，虽然我只知道自己的经历，但对于男性友谊来说，他们可以当着你的面说任何话，甚至是严厉的批评，但你知道，如果你走出房间，他们不会把你打倒。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're going to reserve that for when you're standing in front of them, thankfully.
谢天谢地，当你站在他们面前时，他们会保留这个。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
We documented that in the fraternity study, that when you tease somebody and you're like, "Hey man, do you see this guy's dance moves?" Or, "You see this guy shoot a free throw?" Whatever it is, you're just making light of human foible and all the funny things that we do.
我们在兄弟会研究中记录了这一点，当你取笑某人时，你会说，“嘿，伙计，你看到这个人的舞步了吗？”或者，“你看到这家伙罚球了吗？”不管是什么，你只是在嘲笑人类的弱点和我们所做的所有有趣的事情。
And there's just this really subtle repair work where they're saying, like, "I'm teasing you, but I know you got it, and I'll support you." And I agree.
他们会说，“我在开玩笑，但我知道你明白了，我会支持你”，这是非常微妙的修复工作。我同意。
I think that part of what teasing does is it says, "What do we as a collective really care about?" And let's surface those norms in a lighthearted way, and we know together, and if you make mistakes, you should be apologetic about it.
我认为取笑的部分作用是说：“作为一个集体，我们真正关心的是什么？”让我们以一种轻松的方式来表达这些规范，我们一起知道，如果你犯了错误，你应该为此道歉。
But part of it also is just this sort of I got your back repair work that they did, and it's profound.
但其中一部分也正是他们所做的这种背部修复工作，而且意义深远。
It's interesting, I was kind of this shy kid, and I was very small growing up, and kind of the teasing often crossed lines in high school, just bullying and so forth.
有趣的是，我是一个害羞的孩子，我在成长过程中很小，而且在高中时经常被人戏弄、欺凌等等。
And then I started to play basketball, and I realized a lot of it's just men making sure they know the rules of the game, and showing also in those moments of the joys of laughing together, like, "I support you, I'm with you," right?
然后我开始打篮球，我意识到很多时候只是男人确保他们了解比赛规则，并在那些一起笑的时刻表现出快乐，比如，“我支持你，我和你在一起，”对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
What a sophisticated thing to do compared to the alternatives.
与其他选择相比，这是多么复杂的事情啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a sister, so I was always struck by the brothers in my neighborhood.
我有一个妹妹，所以我总是对邻居的兄弟们感到震惊。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There were two in particular.
其中有两个特别重要。
I would hear screaming outside, go outside, this older brother, his name was Peter, holding Michael's face in the sprinklers.
我会听到外面尖叫声，走到外面，这个哥哥，他的名字叫彼得，在洒水器里捧着迈克尔的脸。
His brother's just crying and crying, screaming.
他的兄弟只是哭啊哭啊尖叫。
I mean, relentless older brother torture.
我的意思是，无情的哥哥折磨。
Some people will hear this and probably be like, "Oh, call the cops."
有些人听到这句话可能会说，“哦，报警吧。”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know what the reaction is nowadays.
不知道现在大家反应如何。
I'll try not to be generationally biased.
我会尽量不带有代际偏见。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Yeah, he was abusing his younger brother.
是的，他虐待他的弟弟。
But if anyone said or tried to do anything to either one of them, they would immediately pair up and fight anyone.
但如果有人对他们中的任何一个说了什么或试图做任何事，他们就会立即结伴并与任何人战斗。
It was interesting, right?
很有趣，对吧？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For a guy who had an older sister, and this is a very different experience, right?
对于一个有姐姐的男人来说，这是一次非常不同的经历，对吧？
She had her own form of older sister kind of hazing to her younger brother.
她有她自己的姐姐对弟弟的欺辱。
But there really does seem to be something critical about kind of defining the relationship with people one-on-one, in groups, versus when there's an outside threat.
但与存在外部威胁时相比，在一对一、团体中定义与人的关系似乎确实很关键。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And not that we want outside threat, but-
并不是说我们想要外部威胁，而是——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as long as we're talking about the, I don't want to say disintegration, that's too pessimistic-
只要我们谈论的是，我不想说解体，那太悲观了——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the sort of gradual erosion of this collective feeling.
这种集体感情的逐渐侵蚀。
Is there less just kind of grouping up together and-
是不是有更少的那种聚集在一起然后——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
doing things?
做事？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
10 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, first there was the science of loneliness and isolation, John Cacioppo, and then those who followed, like, whoa, we are fragmenting, and we would spend much too much time alone, isolated.
10年前，15年前，10年前，约翰·卡西奥波（John Cacioppo）首先提出了关于孤独和孤立的科学，然后那些追随者，就像，哇，我们正在分裂，我们会花费太多的时间独自一人，孤立。
And then COVID hit, lockdown, et cetera, and our former surgeon general, Vivek Murthy, got it right.
然后新冠疫情袭来，封锁等等，我们的前卫生局局长维韦克·穆尔蒂（Vivek Murthy）做对了。
It's an epidemic of loneliness.
这是一种孤独的流行病。
And I, as a social psychologist interested in these social emotions, I'm like, you just look at the basic raw facts, like picnics are down by half.
而我，作为一名对这些社会情感感兴趣的社会心理学家，我想，你只需看看基本的原始事实，比如野餐减少了一半。
We don't go to movies like we used to.
我们不再像以前那样去看电影了。
We don't listen to music together.
我们不一起听音乐。
The estimate is that 30% of meals in the United States, people eat them by themselves.
据估计，在美国，30%的饭菜是人们自己吃的。
I eat a lot of my meals by myself.
我自己吃很多饭。
We go on walks by ourselves.
我们自己去散步。
We don't go to church.
我们不去教堂。
Church is way down.
教堂已经走下坡路了。
So the broad sociological trends are alarming on that fragmentation, but I think the young generation is putting it back together in really interesting ways.
因此，广泛的社会学趋势对这种分裂感到震惊，但我认为年轻一代正在以非常有趣的方式将其重新组合在一起。
We know from survey data- The 25-year-olds, 30-year-olds are really interested in game nights.
我们从调查数据中得知——25岁、30岁的人对游戏之夜非常感兴趣。
Those are coming back.
那些正在回来。
They're interested in living together, cooperative living.
他们对共同生活、合作生活感兴趣。
They're cooking more with each other.
他们更多地一起做饭。
Value-wise, they care more about community than my generation.
从价值角度来看，他们比我这一代更关心社区。
I was the great explosion of individualism, and they're kind of like, "If I choose a job, I want to make sure I'm working with other people I like." I didn't think about that.
我是个人主义的大爆发，他们有点像，“如果我选择一份工作，我想确保我和我喜欢的其他人一起工作。”我没有想到这一点。
I don't know.
我不知道。
So I think it's coming back and I love the signs of festivals are reappearing now.
所以我认为它正在回归，我喜欢节日的迹象现在重新出现。
The farmers market that I've talked about.
我刚才讲过的农贸市场。
The dance groups that are now returning, contact dance.
现在回来的舞蹈团，接触舞蹈。
I mean, these yoga studios.
我的意思是，这些瑜伽馆。
One out of eight Americans does yoga.
八分之一的美国人做瑜伽。
I do yoga two to three times a week.
我每周做两到三次瑜伽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's so wild.
那太狂野了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
It's amazing.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
15 years ago, no one would have predicted that.
15年前，没有人会预料到这一点。
Also, 15 years ago, no one would have predicted that we're being told that one of the single most important health interventions that women and men should do is like lift weights.
此外，15 年前，没有人会预料到我们会被告知，女性和男性应该做的最重要的健康干预措施之一就是举重。
The only people who lifted weights when I was growing up were like bodybuilders and preseason football players.
在我成长的过程中，唯一举重的人是健美运动员和季前赛足球运动员。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Lifting weights is-
举重是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, you never want to actually live this way, but if you could only pick one form of exercise-
我的意思是，你永远不想真正以这种方式生活，但如果你只能选择一种形式的锻炼——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to do once a week, that's what you would do.
每周做一次，这就是你会做的。
I mean, just in terms of bone health.
我的意思是，就骨骼健康而言。
If it's done properly, you probably get some cardiovascular benefit, too.
如果做得正确，您可能也会对心血管有益。
But just in terms of brain health, I mean, obviously you want to do both.
但就大脑健康而言，我的意思是，显然你想两者兼得。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But resistance training clearly has a longevity benefit.
但阻力训练显然有长寿的好处。
But for the longest time, I mean, you just didn't see women in gyms.
但我的意思是，在很长一段时间里，你只是在健身房里看不到女性。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very few.
很少。
Excuse me.
打扰一下。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And now it's-
现在是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You saw very few
你看到的很少
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
...
...
it's a lot.
很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if you did, women are pushing heavy for them, or in some cases, heavier than the guys are lifting.
如果你这样做了，女性会举重，或者在某些情况下，比男性举重更重。
But regardless, that's a huge shift.
但无论如何，这是一个巨大的转变。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So many more people are in gyms, and I wonder whether or not it contributes to some sort of feeling of collective-
越来越多的人在健身房里，我想知道这是否有助于某种集体感——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
It does
确实如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I mean, you're training hard around other people.
我的意思是，你在其他人周围努力训练。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's cool.
所以这很酷。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I think Vivek Murthy in particular, who I deeply admire and have worked with a bit, he got our health world.
我认为特别是维韦克·穆尔蒂（Vivek Murthy），我非常钦佩并与他合作过，他掌握了我们的健康世界。
Think about it, Surgeon General of the United States, the first one to come out of public health traditions, did work in India, right?
想想看，第一个从公共卫生传统中走出来的美国外科医生，在印度工作过吧？
And he's like, "There's this social side that you've covered in your show, like to health, to physical health, to the telomerase of your cells, your DNA, and the vagus nerve and so forth, oxytocin, cortisol.
他说，“你在节目中涵盖了社会方面的内容，比如健康、身体健康、细胞端粒酶、DNA、迷走神经等等，催产素、皮质醇。
It's social." There are social dimensions to our nervous system.
这是社交的。”我们的神经系统有社会维度。
And I think that's coming, Andrew, like we're starting to see, why do I go to a farmers market?
我认为这即将到来，安德鲁，就像我们开始看到的那样，我为什么要去农贸市场？
Because I feel a sense of community.
因为我感受到了一种社区意识。
And why do I love yoga?
为什么我喜欢瑜伽？
Because I'm doing these postures all synchronized with people I don't know, and I feel a sense of awe and transcendence.
因为我和不认识的人同步做这些姿势，我感到一种敬畏和超越感。
Why do I lift weights, right?
我为什么要举重，对吗？
There's the banter and the discussion and the history and the sense of what this all means culturally.
有玩笑、讨论、历史以及这一切的文化意义。
I think that's coming.
我想那即将到来。
I think the gyms are appealing to it in some sense, right?
我认为健身房在某种意义上对它很有吸引力，对吗？
A little bit more community activity, and I think it's good news.
社区活动多一点，我认为这是个好消息。
I love the Japanese onsen.
我喜欢日本温泉。
You go for the water and the springs and the heat and so forth.
你追求水、泉水和热量等等。
But they, in their wisdom, have built entire community experiences around it.
但他们凭借自己的智慧，围绕它建立了整个社区体验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Where you wash yourself, and you bathe together, and you eat together, and there are sayings up on the walls, and you spend a little time with your kids there, right?
你们在那里洗澡，一起洗澡，一起吃饭，墙上挂着谚语，你们在那里和孩子们一起度过了一段时光，对吗？
So I hope we learn, because I think it's important.
所以我希望我们能够学习，因为我认为这很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm thinking a lot now about how we can bridge between these incredible technologies-
我现在思考了很多关于我们如何在这些令人难以置信的技术之间架起桥梁——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because I am a fan, but also the non-negotiable technology of our nervous system and our-
因为我是一个粉丝，而且也是我们神经系统和我们的-不可协商的技术
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
biology and our psychology, right?
生物学和我们的心理学，对吗？
Lately, because I have aquarium, I'm really into this thing called aquascaping, which is this Japanese form of like plants and freshwater fish-
最近，因为我有水族馆，所以我真的很喜欢水族造景，这是日本形式的植物和淡水鱼 -
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Nice
尼斯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just obsessed with it.
只是沉迷于它。
And when the ecosystem is doing well, I'm like, "Oh, like I feel..." It's brought me some awe at times when things are going well in there.
当生态系统运行良好时，我会想，“哦，就像我感觉......”当事情进展顺利时，有时它会给我带来一些敬畏。
I'm like, "Wow, it's just beautiful." And I think there are things that I would never do to my fish.
我想，“哇，这真是太漂亮了。”我认为有些事情我永远不会对我的鱼做。
I would never isolate them from one another, but I give them enough places to hide from one another because there's a lot of dominance hierarchy stuff being worked out between these discus.
我永远不会将他们彼此隔离，但我给他们足够的地方来隐藏彼此，因为这些铁饼之间正在制定很多统治等级的东西。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I make sure they're on a light cycle.
我确保他们处于轻循环状态。
I make sure they're fed, but not overfed or underfed, right?
我确保他们吃饱了，但没有吃得过多或过少，对吗？
And I wouldn't do most of the things that we do to ourselves to my fish.
我不会对我的鱼做我们对自己所做的大部分事情。
I wouldn't isolate them and give them like little videos of other fish-
我不会孤立它们并像其他鱼的小视频一样给它们-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to look at.
看看。
Like I know that wouldn't work.
就像我知道那样行不通。
I know that they would die.
我知道他们会死。
I know.
我知道。
And so I think we can learn a lot from more simpler organisms and the sort of basic units of care and community.
因此，我认为我们可以从更简单的有机体以及护理和社区的基本单位中学到很多东西。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're very similar.
他们非常相似。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, it gets played out differently, but-
我的意思是，事情会以不同的方式进行，但是-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but they're very similar, because obviously we evolved similar nervous systems, let alone similar needs.
但它们非常相似，因为显然我们进化出了相似的神经系统，更不用说相似的需求了。
I would like to talk about psychedelics, if you're willing.
如果你愿意的话，我想谈谈迷幻药。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think there are at least two views of psychedelics.
我认为对于迷幻药至少有两种看法。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With the caveat that this is not a call for people to just start taking them, that-
需要注意的是，这并不是呼吁人们开始服用它们，-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
these are powerful compounds that people with psychosis or bipolar conditions-
这些是强效化合物，对患有精神病或躁郁症的人来说-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in their family really need to be careful and-
在他们的家庭中确实需要小心并且-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on and on.
不断地。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just be careful.
请小心。
I don't say that to protect myself.
我这么说并不是为了保护自己。
I say that to protect whoever's listening and watching, really.
我这么说是为了保护所有正在收听和观看的人，真的。
It's no small bump.
这不是一个小肿块。
It's a whole thing.
这是一整件事。
So some people will say, "Okay, they just send you inward." And that's the opposite of what we're talking about-
所以有些人会说：“好吧，他们只是把你送进去。”这与我们所说的相反-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like getting all the awe inside, like okay, that's pretty extreme.
就像内心充满敬畏，好吧，那是相当极端的。
Other people will say that their experiences with psychedelics allow them to come out of that experience and really have a felt connection to people, to-
其他人会说，他们使用迷幻剂的经历让他们从这种经历中走出来，并真正与人建立了一种有感觉的联系，以-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
plants, to animals, to life, that is profoundly positive for their feelings of connection.
植物、动物、生命，这对于他们的联系感是非常积极的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And seeing awe, perhaps-
看到敬畏，也许——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even in lots of things.
即使在很多事情上。
So how should we think about psychedelics?
那么我们应该如何看待迷幻药呢？
And we should probably constrain the question a little bit.
我们或许应该稍微限制一下这个问题。
I'm not talking about MDMA, which is not a psychedelic, it's an empathogen.
我说的不是摇头丸，它不是迷幻药，而是一种共情剂。
Ketamine is not a psychedelic-
氯胺酮不是迷幻药
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's a dissociative anesthetic.
这是一种解离麻醉剂。
I'm starting to do this now because people start to lump, and it's actually causing issues for the-
我现在开始这样做，因为人们开始结块，这实际上给-带来了问题
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Profoundly
深刻地
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
potential legalization for-
潜在的合法化-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so we need to be splitters, not lumpers here.
所以我们需要成为分裂者，而不是统一者。
So I'm talking about LSD, psilocybin, maybe DMT-
所以我说的是LSD、裸盖菇素，也许还有DMT-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
ayahuasca, the classic psychedelics.
死藤水，经典迷幻药。
What are your thoughts on these?
您对此有何看法？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I'm good friends with Michael Pollan and was kind of walking the Berkeley Hills as he was producing that book and watched as we started a center for psychedelics at Berkeley.
我和迈克尔·波伦是好朋友，当他制作那本书时，我在伯克利山散步，看着我们在伯克利建立了一个致幻剂中心。
And it's a revolution.
这是一场革命。
I mean, psychedelic use is up 40% since his book.
我的意思是，自他的书出版以来，迷幻剂的使用量增加了 40%。
It's incredible to watch.
观看起来令人难以置信。
And I have a few thoughts.
我有一些想法。
One is make sure to honor the indigenous traditions out of which they come.
一是确保尊重他们所源自的土著传统。
Those are spirit medicines in their community.
这些是他们社区的灵药。
They're a part of deep ethical traditions.
它们是深厚的道德传统的一部分。
And to honor that with sharing of resources and knowledge and the right kind of acknowledgement, that's really important.
通过共享资源和知识以及正确的认可来兑现这一点，这非常重要。
I think in some sense, and David Yaden at Johns Hopkins and others, and some of the early Roland Griffiths work spoke to this, that they are about awe, fundamentally.
我认为从某种意义上说，约翰·霍普金斯大学的大卫·亚登和其他人，以及罗兰·格里菲斯的一些早期作品都谈到了这一点，从根本上说，它们是关于敬畏的。
They open up your mind, and you see all life forms, and time is different, and your sense of self vanishes.
它们打开了你的思维，你看到了所有的生命形式，时间不同了，你的自我意识消失了。
Robin Carhart-Harris, and you're just connected to vast things, ecosystems, and sense of humanity.
罗宾·卡哈特-哈里斯（Robin Carhart-Harris），你只是与广阔的事物、生态系统和人性意识联系在一起。
And I think in some sense, when done in the right way, that's good news.
我认为从某种意义上说，如果以正确的方式完成，这是个好消息。
Molly Crockett and her team at Princeton, you go to a festival and you have psychedelics, a year later, you're kinder, through awe, right?
莫莉·克罗克特（Molly Crockett）和她在普林斯顿大学的团队，你去参加一个节日，吃了迷幻药，一年后，你会因为敬畏而变得更友善，对吧？
So I think that's important.
所以我认为这很重要。
I think it's great news what it does for the hard problems of the mind.
我认为它对于解决心灵难题来说是个好消息。
Death anxiety, addiction, trauma, maybe veterans who are suffering twice the rates of PTSD, they're drawn to this.
死亡焦虑、成瘾、创伤，也许是退伍军人遭受创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的两倍，他们被这些所吸引。
And the VA is working on this.
退伍军人事务部正在努力解决这个问题。
And the data look pretty good.
而且数据看起来还不错。
OCD, right?
强迫症，对吧？
Hard problems of the mind.
心灵的难题。
Panic, that I've, in part, dealt with.
我已经部分地处理了恐慌。
That is good news.
这是个好消息。
I worry about microdosing.
我担心微剂量。
I think people are taking these things like coffee, and it's not coffee.
我认为人们把这些东西当作咖啡，但它不是咖啡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it's not coffee.
不，这不是咖啡。
I drink coffee-
我喝咖啡-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I know a thing or two about psychedelics-
我对迷幻药略知一二——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by experience, and it's definitely not coffee.
根据经验，这绝对不是咖啡。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And the data speak to this, and we've suddenly unleashed the use of it.
数据说明了这一点，我们突然释放了它的使用。
Tens of millions of people are using it, not in the way that Michael Pollan describes of putting it into a cultural container of inquiry and knowledge and guidance, and someone who knows what they're doing around you.
数以千万计的人正在使用它，而不是像迈克尔·波伦描述的那样，将其放入一个充满探究、知识和指导的文化容器中，并且有人知道他们在你周围做什么。
And so-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, pure safety, even
是的，纯粹的安全，甚至
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Safety.
安全。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So we're seeing that.
所以我们看到了这一点。
And they changed my life.
他们改变了我的生活。
I got to them early.
我很早就到了他们那里。
In my late teens, 17, 18, 19, I was a very anxious, obsessive kid, and I think they opened up my mind in this perspective way we've been talking about.
在我十几岁、17岁、18岁、19岁的时候，我是一个非常焦虑、强迫症的孩子，我认为他们以我们一直在谈论的这种方式打开了我的思维。
I don't really do them now.
我现在不太做这些事了。
They gave me a lot.
他们给了我很多。
That's why they're here.
这就是他们在这里的原因。
It's funny, Andrew, when I was doing them, we were reading Castaneda, who's been debunked.
有趣的是，安德鲁，当我做这些的时候，我们正在读卡斯塔内达的书，他已经被揭穿了。
And we're reading "The Traditions" and thinking about them spiritually, and "The Doors of Perception," and all this good stuff, right?
我们正在阅读《传统》并在精神上思考它们，还有《感知之门》以及所有这些好东西，对吧？
They were embedded in a culture of trying to find mysticism or whatever it is, and I hope people are doing that if they're going to be doing them.
他们根植于一种试图寻找神秘主义或其他什么的文化中，我希望人们能够这样做，如果他们打算这样做的话。
Make it a form of inquiry.
使其成为一种探究形式。
It's a complicated story.
这是一个复杂的故事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Like everything.
喜欢一切。
Like technology.
就像技术一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, they're a form of plant technology-
嗯，它们是植物技术的一种形式——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
right?
对吗？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which, quick vignette on that, we had someone here, Chris McCurdy, who runs a lab out in Florida.
对此，我们有一个人，克里斯·麦柯迪，他在佛罗里达州经营着一个实验室。
He studies kratom and other compounds from plants.
他研究卡痛叶和其他植物化合物。
The pharma companies, they bioprospect.
制药公司，他们进行生物勘探。
They send people looking for-
他们派人寻找——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
plants that then they can find isolates and everything from aspirin to kratom to anesthetics like cocaine.
然后他们可以找到分离物以及从阿司匹林到卡痛叶到可卡因等麻醉剂的各种物质。
I'm not suggesting people use it as an anesthetic.
我并不是建议人们使用它作为麻醉剂。
They come from plants, but they're isolated and then synthesized and enriched, and that's where the extreme opiate, the extreme stimulant-
它们来自植物，但被分离出来，然后合成并浓缩，这就是极端鸦片、极端兴奋剂的来源——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's where it comes from.
这就是它的来源。
But they all come from plant...
但它们都是来自植物...
Many of them come from plant alkaloids, which is interesting in its own right.
其中许多来自植物生物碱，这本身就很有趣。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I share your feelings about microdosing.
但我同意你对微剂量的感受。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The data, Robin Carhart-Harris tells me, and he's the real expert, of course, the data say there's no evidence of benefit from microdosing, at least on major depression, as compared to two rounds of psilocybin with a guide-
罗宾·卡哈特-哈里斯告诉我，这些数据是真正的专家，当然，数据表明，与两轮带有指导的裸盖菇素相比，没有证据表明微剂量给药有益处，至少对重度抑郁症是这样的——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
therapy before, during, and after-
治疗前、治疗中和治疗后
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right.
对。
Wow
哇
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and on and on.
等等。
So-
所以——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I hope people hear that.
我希望人们听到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I hope they hear that.
是的，我希望他们能听到。
I had the opposite experience as you.
我和你有相反的经历。
I actually regret having done psychedelics when I was younger.
我真的很后悔年轻时吸过迷幻药。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They were terrifying.
他们太可怕了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't have a good experience.
我没有很好的经历。
I stopped, didn't go anywhere near them.
我停了下来，没有靠近他们。
And then later, in a therapeutic setting, had a few experiences with them, not many, but that were immensely beneficial for me.
后来，在治疗环境中，与他们有过一些经历，虽然不多，但对我来说非常有益。
So kind of the opposite direction there.
那里的方向有点相反。
But what we're talking about now, about there's this problem with certain technologies, there's the culture wars, there's the political wars, there's the actual war that's also going on right now.
但我们现在谈论的是某些技术存在的问题，有文化战争，有政治战争，还有现在正在发生的实际战争。
In a lot of ways, this resembles The '70s, '80s.
在很多方面，这类似于 70 年代、80 年代。
There's not that.
没有那个啊
I remember a time when you had yuppies and you had hippies and you had punk rockers.
我记得曾经有雅皮士、嬉皮士和朋克摇滚乐手。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You watch a John Hughes film, and the idea was like- ...
你看一部约翰·休斯的电影，你的想法是——......
"Oh, we're actually similar," right?
“哦，我们其实很相似，”对吧？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The extent to which those films showed people, hey, people were actually similar along certain dimensions as opposed to so different.
这些电影在多大程度上展示了人们，嘿，人们在某些方面实际上是相似的，而不是如此不同。
But I wonder, because I think about the not so recent and recent history of things, everything from breathwork, cold plunges, psychedelics-
但我想知道，因为我想到了不那么最近和最近的事物历史，从呼吸、冷水潜水、迷幻药等一切——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
awe.
敬畏。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Music, the collective consciousness.
音乐，集体意识。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's going to look different now, the same way that it looked different back then.
现在看起来会有所不同，就像当时看起来有所不同一样。
I'm trying to get outside my Gen X self these days and think, so what would it look like?
这些天我试图摆脱 X 世代的自我，思考，那会是什么样子？
I'm the old guy now.
我现在是老家伙了。
So what would it look like if these technologies, I just mentioned a few-
那么，如果这些技术会是什么样子，我只是提到了一些——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but all of them, including social media, what would it look like if those were all used to the greatest benefit?
但所有这些，包括社交媒体，如果它们都被用来获得最大的利益，会是什么样子？
What would that look like?
那会是什么样子？
Can we be the open-minded parents of the '80s?
我们能成为80后思想开放的父母吗？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I feel like I can scream all day about what I think about the science of this and that to younger people, but the only thing I actually have control over is me.
因为我觉得我可以整天向年轻人尖叫我对科学的看法，但我唯一真正能控制的就是我自己。
How do we, let's say 40 to 100-year-olds- ...
比如说 40 到 100 岁的人，我们如何...
let's really lean it on the 40 to 70-year-olds.
让我们真正把它寄托在40岁到70岁的人身上。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do we create the environment so that younger people can flourish with these technologies, as opposed to being like the parents of the '70s and '80s that are like, "Oh, they got long hair," and like, "What is this punk rock thing?" I don't want to be that person.
我们如何创造环境，让年轻人能够利用这些技术蓬勃发展，而不是像 70 年代和 80 年代的父母那样，“哦，他们留着长发”，“这是什么朋克摇滚东西？”我不想成为那样的人。
That sucks.
太糟糕了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I also don't want to be the, and I see this a lot, unfortunately, people who are part of those movements, and then they're just towing the party line because they're wholeheartedly adhering to one political group without thinking about whether-
不幸的是，我也不想成为那些参与这些运动的人，而且我经常看到这种情况，然后他们只是在追随党派路线，因为他们全心全意地拥护一个政治团体，而不考虑是否——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or not there's any hint of rational-
或者没有任何理性的暗示——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
argument on the other side.
另一方的争论。
The whole point is not to be against.
重点是不要反对。
The whole idea is to be for what you believe is right.
整个想法是为了你认为正确的事情。
And so I don't know how to do this.
所以我不知道该怎么做。
You're older than I am by a bit.
你比我大一点。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're clearly wiser than I am, seriously.
说真的，你显然比我聪明。
And you have more life experience.
而且你还有更多的人生经历。
So what do we do?
那么我们该怎么办呢？
Really, what in the-
真的，这里面是什么——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
hell can we do?
我们能做什么？
Because I don't like this, "You guys are all on your phones."
因为我不喜欢这样，“你们都在玩手机。”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
No, I know.
不，我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That doesn't feel good to me.
这对我来说感觉不太好。
Because they were telling us when we were younger, "This is ridiculous."
因为他们在我们年轻的时候告诉我们，“这太荒谬了。”
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The older guys were like, small wheels on skateboards.
年长的家伙就像滑板上的小轮子。
They were right about the small-
他们对小事的看法是正确的——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
wheels things.
轮子的东西。
Turns out the wheels got too small.
结果发现轮子太小了。
Jim will understand that joke.
吉姆会明白这个笑话的。
But what do we do?
但我们该怎么办呢？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I think we're in this moment, with everything going on, with AI and being online and polarization and climate crisis and the things that we worry about, the rise of white supremacy, politics, et cetera.
我认为我们正处于这个时刻，一切都在发生，人工智能、网络、两极分化、气候危机以及我们担心的事情，白人至上主义的崛起、政治等等。
Everybody's asking this question of what, how do we move forward and in light of many of the things that we've talked about in this conversation, I'm most focused on what Robert Putnam started to write about and other people started to write about, just the breakdown of collective life and shared life.
每个人都在问这个问题，我们要如何前进，鉴于我们在这次谈话中讨论的许多事情，我最关注的是罗伯特·普特南开始写的和其他人开始写的，只是集体生活和共同生活的崩溃。
And I think that's a defining issue of our times, as well as our relationship to the natural world.
我认为这是我们这个时代的一个决定性问题，也是我们与自然世界的关系的一个决定性问题。
And I find awe, as do other people, really refreshing.
我和其他人一样感到敬畏，真的令人耳目一新。
It provides a roadmap, which is, and I'll give you a very concrete example.
它提供了一个路线图，我会给你一个非常具体的例子。
I'm working with Gail Architecture on a Cities of Awe initiative, and they do amazing work, hundreds of cities around the world.
我正在与盖尔建筑事务所合作开展“敬畏之城”计划，他们在全球数百个城市做出了令人惊叹的工作。
70% of human population is in cities.
70%的人口居住在城市。
Most of our carbon emissions come out of cities.
我们的大部分碳排放来自城市。
And this is a place we can redesign and make it better.
这是一个我们可以重新设计并使其变得更好的地方。
And awe is a wonderful lens.
敬畏是一个美妙的镜头。
So you can ask, and you could ask the same of what do you give to a teenager who's suffering suicidal ideation, or what do you give to a veteran who is coming back and feeling alienated from the world?
所以你可以问，你也可以问同样的问题，你会给一个有自杀念头的青少年什么，或者你会给一个回来后感到与世界疏远的退伍军人什么？
You give them awe.
你让他们敬畏。
And what does that mean?
这意味着什么？
It's like, well, you give them a little nature, and that's, you rewild part of a city.
就好像，你给了他们一点自然，那就是，你让城市的一部分重新变得狂野。
You give them some public art.
你给他们一些公共艺术。
We love art.
我们热爱艺术。
We love visual art.
我们热爱视觉艺术。
You give them the opportunity to recognize the moral beauty.
你给他们机会认识道德之美。
You found it in Joe Strummer.
你在乔·斯特鲁默身上找到了它。
Just get them to interact with other people from face to face.
只需让他们与其他人面对面互动即可。
You give them a little collective stuff.
你给他们一些集体的东西。
You, "Hey, we're going to have the yoga class in the town square," or the Mexican Zócalo, everybody walks together at a certain hour of the day, and they suddenly feel peaceful.
你，“嘿，我们要在城镇广场上瑜伽课”，或者墨西哥的Zócalo，每个人在一天中的某个时间一起散步，他们突然感到平静。
You give them ideas about big ideas and life.
你给他们关于伟大想法和生活的想法。
You give them a little bit of opportunity for meditation and reflection.
你给他们一点冥想和反思的机会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
That's easy to do.
这很容易做到。
And when I was writing this book and just teaching social science for 30 years, it's like, man, we used to do this really well, and it used to be temples and church.
当我写这本书并教授社会科学 30 年时，我们过去在这方面做得非常好，而且过去都是寺庙和教堂。
That's where it all was brought together.
这就是一切的汇集之处。
And now we don't go there.
现在我们不去那里了。
55% of Americans go to church.
55%的美国人去教堂。
It used to be 90, or temple.
以前是90，或者寺庙。
I don't.
我不知道。
I never did.
我从来没有这样做过。
And I, in some sense, miss it.
从某种意义上说，我很怀念它。
I see one of my best friends, very religious, he...
我看到我最好的朋友之一，非常虔诚，他...
Few of them, and they have so much.
他们很少，但他们却有这么多。
And we're recreating that right now.
我们现在正在重现这一点。
And we've got to do it in a coherent way.
我们必须以连贯的方式来做这件事。
If it's the place where people are lifting weights, there should be music there.
如果是人们举重的地方，那里应该有音乐。
There should be visual stuff.
应该有视觉的东西。
There should be some art, nature.
应该有一些艺术，自然。
There should be some wisdom and some moral beauty.
应该有一些智慧和一些道德美。
I love Ironworks, where I go climb, because you go there, and it's like People are climbing.
我喜欢钢铁厂，我去那里攀岩，因为你去那里，就像人们在攀岩一样。
But you get to see there's the art exhibit each month of a local artist.
但您可以看到每个月都有当地艺术家的艺术展。
There's some music going on.
正在播放一些音乐。
You get to listen to music.
你可以听音乐。
So this isn't that hard to do, Andrew, and I think the awe science gives us a roadmap to think about what we share.
所以这并不难做到，安德鲁，我认为敬畏科学为我们提供了一个思考我们所分享的东西的路线图。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
I was not into CrossFit, but an ex-girlfriend of mine, when I met her, was really into CrossFit, and they would do-
我不喜欢 CrossFit，但我的一位前女友，当我遇见她时，她真的很喜欢 CrossFit，他们会-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
barbecues, and they'd clean the gym.
烧烤，他们会打扫健身房。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they would dress up in costumes and stuff.
他们会穿着戏服什么的。
And I remember this is when I moved to San Diego to start my lab down there before I moved to Stanford, and I remember thinking, "This is kind of crazy." I went to the gym growing up, always since I was in my teens, and I'm like, "Really?
我记得那是在我搬到斯坦福之前，我搬到了圣地亚哥并在那里开始了我的实验室，我记得我当时想，“这有点疯狂。”我从小就去健身房，从十几岁起就一直去健身房，我想，“真的吗？
You guys like social?" And they had this awesome social community.
你们喜欢社交吗？”他们有一个很棒的社交社区。
I know CrossFit has somewhat fallen out of favor now.
我知道 CrossFit 现在已经有些失宠了。
I think the pandemic brought us into our isolation.
我认为大流行使我们陷入孤立。
You may be pleased to hear, I just thought of this.
你可能会很高兴听到，我只是想到了这一点。
I can't believe that I didn't remember this earlier.
我不敢相信我之前不记得这一点。
One of the things that Joe Strummer was famous for after The Clash, because he went into the kind of void of like- ...
乔·斯特鲁默 (Joe Strummer) 在《冲突》之后因一件事而出名，因为他陷入了一种类似的空虚……
he wasn't doing anything.
他什么也没做。
He wandered for a long time.
他徘徊了很长时间。
He went down to Spain.
他去了西班牙。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Did he really?
他真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, he grew out a beard, moved to Spain.
哦，他留起了胡子，搬到了西班牙。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Cool.
凉爽的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Didn't tell anyone who he was, and they kind of realized who he was eventually.
没有告诉任何人他是谁，他们最终还是意识到了他是谁。
He was really searching.
他确实在寻找。
His life had...
他的一生有...
He lost his brother to suicide, I believe.
我相信他的兄弟是自杀身亡的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He ran the Paris Marathon.
他参加了巴黎马拉松。
It was kind of famous, I think, while smoking a cigarette.
我想，在抽烟的时候，它有点出名。
People always say, and I don't think he did any training.
人们总是说，我认为他没有接受过任何训练。
One thing that he was very well known for until his death was he would do campfires.
在他去世之前，他因一件事而闻名，那就是他会篝火。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In Manhattan.
在曼哈顿。
He would take people down to the river, and he had some famous friends like Jim Jarmusch and well-known people-
他会带人们去河边，他有一些著名的朋友，比如吉姆·贾木许和名人——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in that world.
在那个世界里。
But he would invite whoever, and there were kids.
但他会邀请任何人，而且还有孩子。
You got to see this documentary.
你一定要看看这部纪录片。
It's so good.
太好了。
We'll put a link to it-
我们将放置一个链接 -
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Good
好
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for if people want to see it.
因为如果人们想看的话。
It's so good.
太好了。
There were kids, there were adults, and they'd stay out till like 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning-
有孩子，有大人，他们会在外面呆到凌晨 2:00 或 3:00 左右 -
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
playing music, singing, drumming.
演奏音乐、唱歌、打鼓。
People get up and talk, and so he was constantly doing these campfires-
人们站起来说话，所以他不断地生篝火——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Nice
尼斯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
his entire life.
他的一生。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Knowing close friends of his, it's like this is actually what he did.
认识他的亲密朋友，就好像这就是他所做的那样。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he wasn't getting...
而他并没有得到...
They were able to film a few of these, but that was not the point.
他们能够拍摄其中一些，但这不是重点。
And he would bring out a radio because he thought maybe you could make it like a radio show of the thing.
他会拿出一台收音机，因为他认为也许你可以把它做得像一个广播节目。
But it was not to record and distribute.
但它不是为了录制和分发。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was just...
这只是...
So I don't know.
所以我不知道。
I got this crazy idea in the back of my mind that maybe I'm going to start doing campfires.
我的脑海里浮现出一个疯狂的想法，也许我要开始生篝火了。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I have to weigh in on some science.
我必须权衡一些科学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Oh, am I going to destroy the environment?
哦，我会破坏环境吗？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
No, not at all.
不，一点也不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Not at all.
一点也不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was afraid you were going to tell me that, you know.
我担心你会告诉我这个，你知道。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
In fact, I think this is a deep idea.
其实我觉得这是一个很深刻的想法。
There's this new science of campfires, and they're several hundred thousand years old.
这是关于篝火的新科学，它们已有数十万年的历史。
And also, when you study people in small-scale societies, they gather at night around campfires, and they tell certain kinds of stories.
而且，当你研究小规模社会中的人们时，他们会在晚上聚集在篝火旁，讲述某些类型的故事。
Stories of how they're all connected and helping each other and watching out for what is dangerous in the dark and a lot of stuff happens.
故事讲述了他们如何相互联系、互相帮助、提防黑暗中的危险以及发生了很多事情。
It's fundamental to our humanity around campfires.
这是篝火周围人性的基础。
So I think you're onto something really important that we need to return.
所以我认为你正在做一些非常重要的事情，我们需要返回。
When I go to the climbing gym, we all take saunas.
当我去攀岩馆时，我们都洗桑拿。
I do probably four saunas a week.
我每周大概洗四次桑拿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nice.
不错。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And you get your sweat, and your heart rate goes up, and so good for your body.
当你出汗时，你的心率就会上升，这对你的身体很有好处。
But then it's like everybody sort of offhandedly notes like, "I love the conversations that happen in the sauna." And it's true.
但就像每个人都会随口说的那样，“我喜欢在桑拿房里发生的谈话。”这是真的。
And so yeah, there are all these ways to get back to what we should be doing right now to bring us together, and campfires would be a good start.
所以，是的，有很多方法可以让我们回到现在应该做的事情，让我们团结在一起，篝火将是一个好的开始。
I'll come to your first one.
我会来找你的第一个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Campfire, also great red light therapy.
篝火，也是很棒的红光疗法。
No joke.
不是开玩笑。
Long wavelength light only coming out of that fire.
长波长光仅从火焰中发出。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And everyone's obsessed with red light therapy.
每个人都沉迷于红光疗法。
You can get it from the sun when you don't want to get too much UV, but yeah, you get tons of long wavelength light exposure, which is great-
当你不想受到太多紫外线时，你可以从太阳得到它，但是，是的，你会得到大量的长波长光照射，这很棒-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is known to be great for mitochondria.
众所周知，这对线粒体非常有用。
I mean, don't get me-
我的意思是，别理解我-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to get going on this as too much of a tangent.
我不想把这个话题说得离题太多。
We've had guests on here from University College London.
我们有来自伦敦大学学院的客人。
I mean, the long wavelength light actually goes all the way through your body, even in light clothing, and is absorbed by the water in your mitochondria, which actually improves mitochondrial function-
我的意思是，长波长光实际上会一路穿过你的身体，即使穿着轻便的衣服，并被线粒体中的水吸收，这实际上改善了线粒体功能 -
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Got it
明白了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in every single cell that has a mitochondria.
每个具有线粒体的细胞中。
So-
所以——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And where do we get this light from?
我们从哪里得到这种光？
It's-
这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Typically, it's from sunlight.
通常，它来自阳光。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When it's low solar angle, so when it's low in the sky because of Rayleigh scattering, you're getting rid of the UV.
当太阳角度较低时，因此当由于瑞利散射而在天空中较低时，您就会消除紫外线。
That's why you can see the orange and red.
这就是为什么你可以看到橙色和红色。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's not painful to look at the sun when it's low in the sky.
当太阳在天空中很低时，看太阳并不痛苦。
When it's overhead and the UV index is high, it's full spectrum, and you have to be careful of that.
当它在头顶上并且紫外线指数很高时，它是全光谱的，你必须小心这一点。
You're also...
你也...
You got some color to you, but something tells me your lineage was kind of like fair-skinned, right?
你身上有一些颜色，但我知道你的血统有点像白皮肤，对吧？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
But everyone needs to be cautious about that.
但每个人都需要对此保持谨慎。
But that long wavelength light, people buy red light units and things.
但是对于长波长的光，人们购买红光装置之类的东西。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And those can be beneficial.
这些都是有益的。
They use them clinically now, but good data on that.
他们现在在临床上使用它们，但有很好的数据。
But campfires do it.
但篝火可以做到这一点。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And-
还有——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
And people love campfires
人们喜欢篝火
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and there is this thing, if you are out in front of a campfire at night-
如果你晚上在篝火前，就会有这样的事情——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even if you stay up very late, you wake up feeling pretty darn good.
即使你熬夜很晚，醒来时也会感觉非常好。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's cool.
这很酷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm calling it right now.
所以我现在就打电话给它。
My team's going to hate me for this, but campfire coming to your town.
我的团队会因此而恨我，但篝火会来到你的城镇。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've always dreamed of doing this, like taking a year and just getting a bus and just going from town to town and having science health discussions, but mostly just listening to people and doing campfires.
我一直梦想着这样做，就像花一年的时间，坐一辆公共汽车，从一个城镇到另一个城镇，进行科学健康讨论，但大多数时候只是倾听人们的意见并篝火。
And we probably would film it just because it-
我们可能会拍摄它只是因为它-
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
You should do it
你应该这样做
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I got to create content.
我必须创建内容。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
My dream was to take that bus and to go to all the basketball courts of the country.
我的梦想是乘坐那辆公共汽车去全国所有的篮球场。
Play pickup.
玩皮卡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's your thing.
那是你的事。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Pickup basketball is the same thing.
皮卡篮球也是同样的事情。
It's like people gathering, banging into each other.
就像人们聚集在一起，互相碰撞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Would you do it?
你会做吗？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Banging it.
敲打它。
Would I?
我会吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You could probably figure out an experiment that goes with it.
你也许可以想出一个与之相匹配的实验。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Well, my knees are the...
嗯，我的膝盖是...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But Stanford just developed this way to regenerate cartilage-
但斯坦福大学刚刚开发出这种再生软骨的方法——
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in humans, so.
在人类中，所以。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Okay.
好的。
Well, then I'll look into it.
嗯，那我就研究一下。
Yeah, I love the idea.
是的，我喜欢这个主意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you believe in life after death?
你相信死后有生命吗？
I don't ask every guest that, by the way.
顺便说一下，我不会问每一位客人。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're the only person I've ever asked that.
你是我唯一问过这个问题的人。
Do you believe that something happens after all this?
你相信这一切之后会发生一些事情吗？
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
I do.
我愿意。
I do.
我愿意。
Yeah.
是的。
When I write about this in "Awe," when my brother Rolf passed away colon cancer, 55 or so.
当我在《敬畏》中写到这一点时，我的兄弟罗尔夫 (Rolf) 因结肠癌去世，年仅 55 岁左右。
I watched the whole transition and his battle against it and his acceptance, and then his leaving.
我目睹了整个转变过程、他的反抗、他的接受，然后他的离开。
And I had this profound experience that night, a transcendent experience.
那天晚上我有了这样深刻的体验，一种超然的体验。
And I'm like you, Andrew, it's like neurons and statistics and cells, and we can figure it all out and characterize everything.
我和你一样，安德鲁，就像神经元、统计数据和细胞，我们可以弄清楚一切并描述一切。
And it's like I saw space in a different way.
就像我以不同的方式看待太空一样。
I saw something alive in him.
我在他身上看到了一些活着的东西。
And then afterward, a lot of people had this kind of grief experience of he was around, his voice, his hand was on my back.
后来，很多人都有过这种悲伤的经历，因为他就在我身边，他的声音，他的手放在我的背上。
And I just thought for several years and still to this day of quantum reality and things beyond our three-dimensional, four-dimensional view of time and space and those basic laws.
我花了几年的时间思考量子现实以及超越我们的三维、四维时间和空间观点以及这些基本定律的事物。
And that there is consciousness, maybe patterns of electromagnetic waves around our minds and bodies that are syncing up with other people that transcend the Newtonian world of the brain.
并且存在意识，也许是我们思想和身体周围的电磁波模式，它们与超越牛顿大脑世界的其他人同步。
And I believe that.
我相信这一点。
And I don't know how to study it.
而且我不知道如何研究它。
I sense it in life.
我在生活中感受到了这一点。
I think a lot of other people do too.
我想很多其他人也这样做。
And so that keeps me open to it.
这让我保持开放的心态。
And now I've moved from being as skeptical but open agnostic to like, yeah, there's something there that's beyond what we know.
现在我已经从怀疑但开放的不可知论者转变为喜欢，是的，那里有一些超出我们所知的东西。
So I believe it.
所以我相信。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very cool.
非常酷。
I hope you're right.
我希望你是对的。
I believe it too, but I just hope you're right.
我也相信，但我只是希望你是对的。
I sense you're right.
我感觉你是对的。
Dacher, thank you so much for making the trip down here to talk with us today and share what you've been up to for all these years.
Dacher，非常感谢您今天专程来这里与我们交谈并分享您这些年来的所作所为。
You've had, and continue to have, a magnificent career.
您已经拥有并将继续拥有辉煌的职业生涯。
It's really hard to do really good science, and it's even harder to do really good science with a purpose.
做真正好的科学确实很难，而有目的地做真正好的科学更难。
And you're doing that, and you continue to, and you just have a way about you that everyone now has been able to experience firsthand that you really care.
你正在这样做，并且继续这样做，你只是有一种关于你的方式，现在每个人都能够亲身体验到你真正关心的事情。
That's clear.
很清楚。
You put a ton of thought into the work that you're doing.
您在所做的工作中投入了大量的心思。
You've raised 25 professors which is no small feat, I'll tell you.
我告诉你，你培养了 25 位教授，这可不是一件小事。
That's a monumental feat, which means that the work will continue.
这是一个巨大的壮举，这意味着这项工作将继续下去。
And you're still going.
而你还是要走。
And I'm grateful for your book and that you're continuing to do this.
我很感谢你的书，也感谢你继续这样做。
And I hope you take that trip to maybe if you can't do it around the entire country, hit some pickup basketball games because I think there's something to be learned there for sure.
我希望你能参加这次旅行，如果你不能在全国范围内做到这一点，那就去参加一些临时篮球比赛，因为我认为那里肯定有一些东西可以学到。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I sense it.
我感觉到了。
And thanks for inspiring me, and I know you've inspired a ton of other people.
感谢您激励了我，我知道您也激励了很多其他人。
So we'll put links to everything that you discussed and to your book, but you've definitely inspired us to think more deeply about basically what it is to be human and where to take all this technology that we have-
因此，我们将添加您讨论的所有内容和您的书的链接，但您确实启发了我们更深入地思考人类的本质是什么以及如何利用我们拥有的所有这些技术 -
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and this opportunity that we have and really do real good with it.
我们拥有这个机会，并且确实利用了它。
So I'm very grateful to you.
所以我非常感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Well, thank you, Andrew.
嗯，谢谢你，安德鲁。
It's been an incredible conversation.
这是一次令人难以置信的对话。
Let's do more.
让我们做更多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely do it again.
一定要再做一次。
Dr. Dacher Keltner:
达切尔·凯尔特纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Dacher Keltner.
感谢您参加今天与 Dacher Keltner 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find links to his books, including his book on awe, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息并找到他的书籍的链接，包括他关于敬畏的书，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Dacher Keltner.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Dacher Keltner 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
You matched on Hinge.
您在铰链上匹配。
You're vibing.
你很有活力。
Then her energy completely changes.
然后她的能量就彻底改变了。
What do you do?
你做什么工作？
I'm Raven Smith, and I wrote and read a real love story about this exact sitch.
我是雷文·史密斯，我写过并读过一个关于这个故事的真实爱情故事。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。