Coleman Ruiz: Overcoming Physical & Emotional Challenges

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Coleman Ruiz.

今天我的客人是科尔曼·鲁伊斯。

Coleman Ruiz is a former Tier 1 Navy SEAL Special Operator.

科尔曼·鲁伊斯 (Coleman Ruiz) 是一名前一级海军海豹突击队特种作战人员。

I think it's fair to assume that most of you have never heard of Coleman Ruiz before.

我认为可以公平地假设你们大多数人以前从未听说过科尔曼·鲁伊斯。

And in fact, it was part of his former life job description to be largely covert, such that only his family and friends really knew what he did for a living.

事实上，他以前的工作描述的一部分在很大程度上是秘密的，因此只有他的家人和朋友真正知道他是做什么的。

He is, however, now living as a civilian.

然而，他现在过着平民的生活。

And the reason I invited Coleman on this podcast was essentially to tell us his life story, which of course includes his time in the SEAL teams.

我邀请科尔曼参加这个播客的原因本质上是为了告诉我们他的人生故事，其中当然包括他在海豹突击队的时光。

But includes so much more that I'm certain is of value to everyone.

但其中包含了更多内容，我确信对每个人都有价值。

Today, Coleman shares with you his remarkable journey from childhood through his teenage years into the military and some of the things that happened during his time in the military, which then informed his post-military civilian life and what it is to be a father, a husband, and somebody who has experienced tremendous loss at various stages of his life, as well as tremendous triumph.

今天，科尔曼与大家分享他从童年到青少年时期进入军队的非凡旅程，以及他在军队期间发生的一些事情，这些事情后来告诉了他退伍后的平民生活，以及作为一个父亲、一个丈夫以及一个在人生各个阶段经历了巨大损失和巨大胜利的人意味着什么。

Indeed, if ever there was a life that could be framed within the context of the so-called hero's journey, it is the life of Coleman Ruiz.

事实上，如果有一种人生可以被纳入所谓英雄之旅的背景的话，那就是科尔曼·鲁伊斯的人生。

Coleman Ruiz's life is one that embodies focus and pursuit, family and friends and love, all the things that we think of in terms of having a rich life, but also one that includes many unforeseen tragedies, many unforeseen challenges, both internal and external.

科尔曼·鲁伊斯的一生体现了专注和追求、家人和朋友和爱，所有我们认为拥有丰富生活的东西，但也包括许多不可预见的悲剧，许多不可预见的内部和外部的挑战。

Coleman also shares with a rare and extraordinary degree of vulnerability.

科尔曼也有着罕见且非同寻常的脆弱性。

The extent to which challenges in life, both external and internal, have helped shape him as a human being.

生活中的挑战，无论是外部的还是内部的，在多大程度上帮助塑造了他作为一个人。

What follows is a discussion that everyone, male, female, young or old, and regardless of position in life, is sure to derive tremendous benefit from.

接下来的讨论，每个人，无论男性、女性、年轻或年长，无论生活的地位如何，都一定会从中受益匪浅。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is BetterHelp.

我们的第一个赞助商是 BetterHelp。

Betterhelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.

Betterhelp 提供由持照治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。

I've been doing therapy for over 30 years.

我从事治疗已有 30 多年了。

Initially, I started therapy because, well, I was required to in order to stay in school, but eventually I just decided to keep doing it because I found it to be very beneficial.

最初，我开始接受治疗，因为我需要这样做才能留在学校，但最终我决定继续这样做，因为我发现它非常有益。

There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.

伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。

First of all, it provides a rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk about all issues with.

首先，它可以与您可以信任的人建立融洽的关系，并可以与之讨论所有问题。

Second of all, they can provide support.

其次，他们可以提供支持。

In the form of emotional support or directed guidance.

以情感支持或定向指导的形式。

And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights that you wouldn't have otherwise had access to.

第三，专家治疗可以提供您原本无法获得的有用见解。

In fact, I consider doing regular therapy as important as working out one's body in the gym or through cardiovascular exercise.

事实上，我认为定期治疗与在健身房锻炼身体或通过心血管锻炼一样重要。

And with BetterHelp, scheduling and doing therapy becomes extremely convenient.

有了 BetterHelp，安排和进行治疗变得极其方便。

They can match you to a therapist that can provide those three things, excellent rapport, support, and insight, and they can do so on a schedule that matches yours.

他们可以为您匹配一位能够提供这三样东西的治疗师，即良好的融洽关系、支持和洞察力，并且他们可以按照与您相匹配的时间表来进行。

If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com slash Huberman to get 10% off your first month.

如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com 并削减 Huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。

Again, that's betterhelp.com slash Huberman.

再说一遍，这是 betterhelp.com 斜线 Huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Maui Nui Venison.

今天的节目也是由 Maui Nui Venison 为我们带来的。

Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available.

毛伊努伊鹿肉是营养最丰富、最美味的红肉。

I've spoken before on this podcast and with several expert guests on this podcast about the fact that most of us should be seeking to get about one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight every day.

我之前在这个播客上和这个播客上的几位专家嘉宾谈到过这样一个事实：我们大多数人应该寻求每天每磅体重获取大约一克优质蛋白质。

Not only does that protein provide critical building blocks for things like muscle repair and synthesis, but also for overall metabolism and health.

这种蛋白质不仅为肌肉修复和合成等提供了关键的组成部分，而且还为整体新陈代谢和健康提供了关键的组成部分。

Eating enough quality protein each day is also a terrific way to stave off hunger.

每天吃足够的优质蛋白质也是消除饥饿的好方法。

One of the key things, however, is to make sure that you're getting enough quality protein without ingesting excess calories.

然而，关键的事情之一是确保您获得足够的优质蛋白质而不摄入过多的热量。

Maui Nui venison has an extremely high quality protein per calorie ratio, such that getting one gram of protein per pound of body weight is both easy and doesn't cause you to ingest an excess of calories.

毛伊努伊鹿肉的每卡路里蛋白质含量非常高，因此每磅体重获取一克蛋白质既容易又不会导致您摄入过量的卡路里。

Also, Maui Nui venison is absolutely delicious.

另外，毛伊努伊鹿肉绝对美味。

They have venison steaks, they have ground venison, and they have venison bone broth.

他们有鹿肉排、鹿肉末和鹿骨汤。

I personally like all of those.

我个人喜欢所有这些。

In fact, I probably eat a Maui Nui venison burger pretty much every day.

事实上，我可能几乎每天都会吃毛伊努伊鹿肉汉堡。

And occasionally, I'll swap that for a Maui Nui steak.

有时，我会把它换成毛伊努伊牛排。

And if you're really on the go, they have Maui Nui venison jerky, which has 10 grams of protein per stick at just 55 calories.

如果您真的很忙，他们还有毛伊努伊鹿肉干，每棒含有 10 克蛋白质，热量仅为 55 卡路里。

If you'd like to try Maui Nui Venison, you can go to mauinuivenison.com slash Huberman to get 20% off your first order.

如果您想尝试 Maui Nui 鹿肉，您可以访问 mauinuivenison.comlash Huberman 享受首单 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's mauinuivenison.com slash Huberman.

再说一遍，这是 mauinuivenison.com 斜线 Huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.

今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

Now, I've spoken many times before in this podcast about the critical need to get sleep, both enough sleep and enough quality sleep.

现在，我之前在这个播客中已经多次谈到睡眠的迫切需要，包括充足的睡眠和足够的高质量睡眠。

When we do that, everything, our mental health, our physical health, performance in any sports or school, et cetera, all get better.

当我们这样做时，一切，我们的心理健康，我们的身体健康，在任何运动或学校的表现等等，都会变得更好。

And when we're not sleeping well or enough, all those things suffer.

当我们睡眠不好或睡眠不足时，所有这些都会受到影响。

One of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is that your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees in order to fall and stay deeply asleep.

获得良好睡眠的关键之一是，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度才能入睡并保持深度睡眠。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.

为了醒来时感觉神清气爽，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。

One of the best ways to ensure that happens is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment.

确保这种情况发生的最佳方法之一是控制睡眠环境的温度。

And with Eight Sleep, it makes it very easy to do that.

而有了八睡眠，就可以很容易地做到这一点。

You program in the temperature that you want at the beginning, middle, and end of the night.

您可以在夜间开始、中间和结束时设定所需的温度。

You can even divide the temperature for two different people, if you have two different people sleeping in the bed, and it tracks your sleep.

如果您有两个不同的人睡在床上，您甚至可以划分两个不同人的温度，并且它会跟踪您的睡眠。

It tells you how much slow wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep you're getting.

它会告诉您您正在获得多少慢波睡眠和快动眼睡眠。

It really helps you dial in the correct parameters to get the best possible night's sleep for you.

它确实可以帮助您输入正确的参数，以获得最佳的夜间睡眠。

I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for well over three years now.

我已经睡在八睡床罩上三年多了。

And it has completely transformed my sleep for the better.

它彻底改变了我的睡眠质量。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com slash Huberman and save $150 off their pod three cover.

如果你想尝试八睡眠，你可以去八睡眠.com 削减胡贝尔曼，并在他们的 pod 3 封面上节省 150 美元。

Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU and Australia.

八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟和澳大利亚的部分国家/地区发货。

Again, that's eightsleep.com slash Huberman.

再说一次，这是 everysleep.com 斜线 Huberman。

And now for my conversation with Coleman Ruiz.

现在是我与科尔曼·鲁伊斯的对话。

Coleman Ruiz, welcome.

科尔曼·鲁伊斯，欢迎。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Very excited to see you.

很高兴见到你。

Great to have you here.

很高兴你来到这里。

I'm guessing most people are probably not familiar with Coleman Ruiz.

我猜大多数人可能不熟悉科尔曼·鲁伊斯。

Let's start at the beginning.

让我们从头开始吧。

Where were you born?

你在哪里出世？

What was the context of your home life?

您的家庭生活背景是怎样的？

And maybe let's get up to maybe elementary school, middle school, and whatever top contour or deep details you want to get into, we're all ears.

也许让我们开始讲小学、中学，无论你想了解什么最高轮廓或深层细节，我们都洗耳恭听。

Okay, I'll bring us up to seventh grade because I would say that was probably the first big inflection point in my life.

好吧，我会把我们带到七年级，因为我想说那可能是我人生中的第一个重大转折点。

I was born in New Orleans in a suburb called New Orleans East, we call it.

我出生在新奥尔良一个叫新奥尔良东的郊区，我们称之为新奥尔良东。

And have an older sister, two younger brothers.

还有一个姐姐，两个弟弟。

My dad was a welder.

我的父亲是一名焊工。

My mom was a dental assistant and we had a couple of boxers in the dogs.

我妈妈是一名牙科助理，我们的狗里养了几只拳击手。

And we had a very...

我们有一个非常...

Modest, very modest upbringing.

谦虚，非常谦虚的教养。

I won't...

我不会...

Over-dramatize it, but, you know, admittedly, you know, sometimes we got cheese from the lady across the street who didn't want her welfare cheese and...

过度戏剧化了，但是，你知道，不可否认，你知道，有时我们从街对面的那位女士那里得到奶酪，她不想要她的福利奶酪，然后……

It was one of those.

这是其中之一。

You know, I could tell my parents were fighting for every nickel.

你知道，我看得出我的父母正在为每一分钱而奋斗。

And, but it was great.

而且，但这很棒。

I mean, my cousin grew up across the street from me.

我的意思是，我的表弟在我街对面长大。

He's exactly my age.

他和我同龄。

We had that, at least some of my memory, Andrew, of it was.

我们有过这样的经历，至少我的一些记忆是这样的，安德鲁。

It was very pleasant.

这是非常愉快的。

I learned later that you forget a lot of things in your childhood that were unpleasant.

后来我才知道，你忘记了很多童年时不愉快的事情。

But my initial memories when I started thinking about this kind of thing, and you know, as you and I have discussed, getting professional help, and you start to learn a little bit more about your childhood.

但我最初的记忆是，当我开始思考这类事情时，你知道，正如你和我所讨论的，获得专业帮助，你开始更多地了解你的童年。

But I remember it being very pleasant.

但我记得那是非常愉快的。

You've told me about your background in skateboarding and stuff.

你告诉我你的滑板背景之类的。

You know, we skateboarded the neighborhood.

你知道，我们在附近玩过滑板。

Bmx was a big thing when we were kids.

当我们还是孩子的时候，小轮车是一件大事。

It was very much a rat-the-streets upbringing.

这在很大程度上是在街头老鼠的成长过程中进行的。

There was a park behind the neighborhood.

小区后面有一个公园。

We would cut through the fence and go, you know, this kind of thing.

我们会冲破栅栏，然后去，你知道，这样的事情。

I played football and baseball and very normal in that regard.

我踢足球和棒球，在这方面很正常。

I went to the neighborhood school.

我去了附近的学校。

And then in sixth grade.

然后是六年级。

I went to what was my high school, but it went it went fifth through twelfth.

我去了我的高中，但最终排名第五到第十二。

It's called Holy Cross High School in the Lower Ninth Ward.

它叫圣十字高中，位于下九区。

Which that spot is now vacated because the school, I went back after Hurricane Katrina, the whole school had to be moved.

现在那个位置已经空出来了，因为学校，我在卡特里娜飓风之后回去了，整个学校都必须搬迁。

And I went there in seventh grade.

我七年级的时候就去了那里。

And it was a hellacious start.

这是一个糟糕的开始。

I mean, it was detention after detention, you know, fistfight after fistfight, and damn near.

我的意思是，这是一次又一次的拘留，你知道，一场又一场的打斗，而且快要发生了。

Were you the instigator of those fights?

你是这些打斗的煽动者吗？

Probably some.

大概有一些。

I definitely fell in with the wrong crowd initially in that sixth and seventh grade years.

在六年级和七年级的时候，我肯定是加入了错误的人群。

I wouldn't say it was so extreme.

我不会说这是如此极端。

That like it was complete mayhem but i was definitely on You know, problem, situation, number, whatever, when my parents were called in.

这就像完全混乱，但当我的父母被叫进来时，我绝对在你知道，问题，情况，数字，等等。

And it was kind of the last straw type thing.

这是最后一根稻草。

And, um...

而且，嗯...

I got cut from baseball.

我被棒球除名了。

My grades were fine.

我的成绩很好。

I was always a pretty good student.

我一直是一个非常好的学生。

It was just teenager shenanigans.

这只是青少年的恶作剧。

And then I went out for wrestling.

然后我就出去摔跤了。

Can I just pause you for a second?

我可以让你暂停一下吗？

So on the violence part.

那么关于暴力部分。

I have a little bit of experience with this.

我对此有一点经验。

Violence can come from trying to protect others.

暴力可能源于试图保护他人。

Yeah.

是的。

Instigating.

煽动。

It can come from the wildness, just trying to see what it feels like, experimentation.

它可以来自野外，只是想看看实验的感觉。

And any number of other things, all the way to pure sociopathy, which we know you are not and weren't.

还有许多其他的事情，一直到纯粹的反社会人格，我们知道你不是，也不是。

Do you recall feeling something inside that inspired this?

你还记得内心深处有什么东西激发了你的灵感吗？

Was it for attention?

是为了引起注意吗？

Did it feel good afterwards?

后来感觉好吗？

Yeah, can you recall what it was about?

是啊，你还记得那是关于什么的吗？

I think it was the wildness thing, Andrew, honestly.

老实说，我认为这就是狂野的事情。

It wasn't...

原来不是...

I mean, I believe I don't have a malicious bone in my body.

我的意思是，我相信我的身体里没有恶意。

Like, we all have that in us.

就像，我们都有这样的东西。

Obviously, my profession later in the military, you know.

显然，我的职业后来是在军队，你知道的。

I was able to activate that and I feel like I still can and I was certainly able to in sports which is why that seventh grade year was really pivotal.

我能够激活它，我觉得我仍然可以，而且我在体育运动中当然能够激活它，这就是为什么七年级的那一年真的很关键。

But even now, it's funny, it's even funny you ask about the wildness because Let me put it in movie terms.

但即使是现在，这很有趣，甚至很有趣的是你问起荒野，因为让我用电影术语来表达。

Like, one of my favorite movie scenes of all time is in the movie The Town.

就像，我一直以来最喜欢的电影场景之一是在电影《小镇》中。

When Ben Affleck walks in the room, Jeremy Renner is the, you know, his partner, essentially.

当本·阿弗莱克走进房间时，杰瑞米·雷纳本质上就是他的搭档。

And he walks in the room and he says.

他走进房间说道。

We're going to hurt somebody.

我们会伤害某人。

I can't tell you where and I can't tell you when.

我无法告诉你在哪里，也无法告诉你何时。

And he pauses and Jeremy Renner takes maybe a three second pause and he says, whose car are we taking?

他停了下来，杰瑞米·雷纳停顿了大约三秒钟，他说，我们要坐谁的车？

He doesn't even ask.

他甚至不问。

You know, he's just.

你知道，他只是。

They're just wild and excited about doing something wild.

他们只是对做一些疯狂的事情感到疯狂和兴奋。

I don't promote like going to hurt somebody.

我不提倡伤害别人。

Were you the Affleck or the Renner?

你是阿弗莱克还是雷纳？

Affleck, excuse me, or Renner in that?

阿弗莱克，请问，还是雷纳？

I was, I feel like I was mostly the Renner.

我是，我觉得我主要是雷纳。

Put it this way, if you have some good idea this afternoon, Like, let's go fucking try this.

这么说吧，如果你今天下午有什么好主意，我们就去他妈的试试吧。

I'm good.

我很好。

I'm ready.

我准备好了。

And I think it's just exciting.

我认为这很令人兴奋。

You know, I hate rules.

你知道，我讨厌规则。

I hate being told what to do.

我讨厌被告知要做什么。

It's one of the things that was so frustrating about the military.

这是军队中最令人沮丧的事情之一。

The rules are in place for a reason.

规则的制定是有原因的。

They're written in blood.

它们是用血写成的。

I get all that.

我明白了。

But we're so constrained sometimes.

但有时我们会受到很大的限制。

I think that was just all coming into fruition that seventh grade year.

我认为这一切在七年级那年才得以实现。

And I enjoyed going wild like it was just fun and frankly we weren't These fist fights and this trouble wasn't Like going to get some kid.

我喜欢疯狂，就像这很有趣，坦率地说，我们不是这些拳头打斗，这种麻烦也不像去抓一些孩子。

Those other kids wanted the wildness too, you know, and so...

你知道，其他孩子也想要狂野，所以......

But the school didn't want that.

但学校不希望这样。

And then I went out for wrestling that year and I could put it all into the wrestling room And it was awesome.

然后那年我出去摔跤，我可以把所有的东西都放进摔跤室，这太棒了。

Before we talk about wrestling and why it was so meaningful as a channel for you, a little bit of neurobiology, or else I wouldn't be Andrew Huberman.

在我们谈论摔跤以及为什么它作为一个频道对你来说如此有意义之前，先了解一点神经生物学，否则我就不会成为安德鲁·胡伯曼了。

There's a really interesting phenomenon that one observes in both animals and humans.

人们在动物和人类身上都观察到了一种非常有趣的现象。

Which is that somewhere around adolescence when the hormone surge begins.

这是在青春期左右荷尔蒙开始激增的时候。

But even before that, there's a phenomenon called dispersal.

但甚至在此之前，存在一种称为分散的现象。

It's very different than fighting per se or sexual activity per se.

这与打架本身或性活动本身有很大不同。

It's a literal dispersal from one's home environment or an animal's nest in which animals...

这是从字面上的分散，从一个人的家庭环境或动物的巢穴中，动物......

And humans, and we're animals after all.

还有人类，我们毕竟是动物。

Start forging new environments in a very, as you point out, chaotic way.

正如您所指出的，开始以一种非常混乱的方式打造新环境。

It's not organized.

它没有组织。

It's a little nuts.

有点疯狂。

And biologists and neurobiologists in particular have observed changes in neural circuitry that drive this.

生物学家和神经生物学家尤其观察到驱动这一现象的神经回路的变化。

So some of it's hormonal, but a lot of it is the brain taking all this input that one has been exposed to, sun, earth, food, others, social interactions.

所以其中一些是荷尔蒙的，但很多是大脑接受了一个人所接触到的所有这些输入，阳光、地球、食物、其他、社交互动。

And starting to essentially throw the different paints, the different colors of paint together and just trying things.

然后开始将不同的油漆、不同颜色的油漆放在一起，然后进行尝试。

Some kids are more prone to this than others.

有些孩子比其他孩子更容易出现这种情况。

It certainly has a hormonal component.

它确实含有荷尔蒙成分。

Boys and girls tend to do this differently, but they both do it.

男孩和女孩在这方面的做法有所不同，但他们都会这样做。

And psychologists and neurobiologists see this as a fundamental shift in our underlying circuitry.

心理学家和神经生物学家认为这是我们底层电路的根本性转变。

So just a little bit of food for thought to put what you just described in context.

因此，只需将您刚才描述的内容放在上下文中，就可以引人深思。

With that said, tell us about wrestling.

说到这里，给我们讲讲摔跤吧。

I mean, Andrew, in many ways, like I said, that was the first inflection point.

我的意思是，安德鲁，从很多方面来说，就像我说的，这是第一个拐点。

It was like.

就像。

Immediate, I mean, immediate uptake.

立即，我的意思是，立即采用。

Within a week, I knew this was my thing.

一周之内，我知道这是我的事。

Maybe the first practice.

也许是第一次练习。

What do you think it was?

你认为那是什么？

So when I was younger, my aunt and uncle...

所以当我还小的时候，我的叔叔阿姨...

When I was like seven years old, they started taking me to road races.

当我七岁的时候，他们开始带我参加公路比赛。

And I'm sure just running races, one mile and 5K races when I was a really small kid.

我确信当我还是个小孩子的时候，我就参加过跑步、一英里和 5 千米比赛。

For you to run.

为你奔跑。

Mm-hmm, to run with them.

嗯嗯，和他们一起跑。

They were into the road racing thing back in the day when it was brand new, you know, the 80s.

他们早在 80 年代公路赛车刚刚兴起的时候就开始热衷于公路赛车了。

I'm 48, so.

我48岁了，所以。

I was born in 75, so I was seven, you know, eight years old at the time.

我出生于 75 年，所以当时我七岁，八岁。

And I was into, like, obviously, can I win this race?

我很想知道，我能赢得这场比赛吗？

I just, the pain.

我只是，痛苦。

Of the effort.

的努力。

Was so comfortable.

真是太舒服了。

And then...

然后...

It's kind of silly, but like I won the PT competition at like the Boy Scouts thing in Audubon Park.

这有点傻，但就像我在奥杜邦公园的童子军比赛中赢得了 PT 比赛一样。

Pt is physical.

Pt是物理的。

Yeah.

是的。

Physical training.

体育。

Physical training.

体育。

And so I won like the whatever when I was young and built Boy Scouts or something.

所以当我年轻的时候，我会喜欢无论什么，建立童子军之类的东西。

And then it just snowballed.

然后事情就像滚雪球一样越滚越大。

Then I was just like the physical activity.

然后我就喜欢体育活动了。

Still today is, I mean, if someone said, what are you really in love with?

我的意思是，今天仍然是，如果有人问，你真正爱什么？

It's that.

就是这样。

And so when I walked into the wrestling room It was so extreme compared to anything else I had ever done.

因此，当我走进摔跤室时，与我做过的任何其他事情相比，这是如此极端。

Football, baseball, whatever.

足球、棒球什么的。

I never really liked any of those sports.

我从来都不喜欢这些运动。

I played them all.

我把它们都玩了。

But I didn't like them.

但我不喜欢它们。

And always my dad wrestled in high school and college and We were, you know, always rough and tumble in that regard.

我父亲在高中和大学时总是摔跤，你知道，我们在这方面总是很粗暴和跌倒。

I even have a couple of buddies in the teams, you know, who obviously were college wrestlers.

你知道，我什至在队里有几个朋友，他们显然是大学摔跤手。

There's a lot of wrestlers in the teams.

队里有很多摔跤手。

People would always joke about how we're so handsy.

人们总是开玩笑说我们多么方便。

You know, our hands are always on each other and...

你知道，我们的手总是放在彼此身上......

That was just a thing for us.

这对我们来说只是一件事。

Like, I loved the close contact.

就像，我喜欢亲密接触。

I loved the fight of it.

我喜欢它的战斗。

What I really love about combat sports, because I boxed in high school between wrestling seasons.

我真正喜欢的是格斗运动，因为我在高中的摔跤季节期间打过拳击。

Was the respect.

是尊重。

Tell me more about that.

告诉我更多相关信息。

You just don't have, there are some, of course, like you can see guys hyping it up and doing their thing in UFC these days, and that's totally fine.

你只是没有，当然有一些，就像你现在可以看到人们在 UFC 中大肆宣传并做他们的事情，这完全没问题。

But for the most part, if you have fighters of any type, like, in a setting when they don't have to do, you know, the stuff for TV and whatnot.

但在大多数情况下，如果你有任何类型的战士，比如，在他们不必做电视之类的事情的环境中。

They respect each other because and they respect the effort and Because you know what it takes.

他们互相尊重，因为他们尊重对方的努力，因为你知道这需要什么。

And you know how hard it is to face another man in the middle of a mat with no equipment.

你知道，在没有任何装备的情况下，在垫子中间面对另一个人是多么困难。

And nowhere to run and no timeouts and no one to tap in, that's extreme, you know?

无处可跑，没有暂停，也没有人可以利用，这太极端了，你知道吗？

And it may not seem like high school wrestling is extreme, but...

高中摔跤似乎并不极端，但是......

As you just mentioned something about, you know, development, when you're 14 and you're facing another, like, that's the first time.

正如你刚才提到的，你知道，发展，当你 14 岁的时候，你面临着另一个，就像，那是第一次。

Is someone trying to take your life?

有人想夺走你的生命吗？

No, they're not.

不，他们不是。

But it feels that way.

但感觉就是这样。

And then you go and you put in all these hours of training, and you don't eat during the week, and you run stadiums or you run levees.

然后你就去投入所有这些时间的训练，你在一周内不吃东西，你管理体育场或管理堤坝。

And, you know, fireman's carries and all of it.

而且，你知道，还有消防员的装备等等。

While you're not eating and making weight and you're in the sauna and it's just a very tough thing to do, combat sports, and I love the respect that it engenders between the people who do it.

当你不吃东西、不增加体重的时候，你在桑拿房里，这是一件非常艰难的事情，但对抗运动，我喜欢它在做这件事的人之间产生的尊重。

I think it was Sam Sheridan who wrote A Fighter's Heart.

我认为《斗士之心》的作者是萨姆·谢里丹。

An excellent book.

一本很棒的书。

And for anyone, male or female, any age who's interested in the human spirit, I recommend A Fighter's Heart because it's about the different fight sports, but it's really about...

对于任何对人类精神感兴趣的人，无论男性还是女性，任何年龄，我推荐《斗士的心》，因为它是关于不同的格斗运动，但它实际上是关于……

The path of self-discovery that occurs in various martial arts.

发生在各种武术中的自我发现之路。

And as you said, like, especially boxing is very gentlemanly.

正如你所说，尤其是拳击是非常绅士的。

You touch gloves, you start, you know, then the, you know, the bell goes off, you go to your corner.

你触摸手套，你开始，你知道，然后，你知道，铃声响起，你走到你的角落。

Like it's, you know, sometimes people lose it, bite off people's ears and things like that.

就像它一样，你知道，有时人们会失去它，咬掉人们的耳朵等等。

But, but for the most part, the sport is very, structured.

但是，但在大多数情况下，这项运动是非常结构化的。

As you were doing this, what was happening with school?

当你这样做时，学校发生了什么？

Did it help, your academic studies?

对你的学术研究有帮助吗？

Did it keep them more or less the same.

它使它们或多或少保持相同吗？

And how did your family and your peer group view what you were doing?

您的家人和同龄人如何看待您所做的事情？

Were you considered strange for liking wrestling so much?

你这么喜欢摔跤，会被认为很奇怪吗？

I mean, you're dieting, right?

我的意思是，你正在节食，对吗？

You're a young male dieting for purpose of sport and performance.

您是一名年轻男性，为了运动和表现而节食。

You're sitting in saunas, you're running wrapped in plastic bags, all this.

你坐在桑拿房里，你裹着塑料袋跑步，所有这一切。

I mean, a good friend of ours who was also in the SEAL teams said, one said to me, he said, you know, wrestlers are different.

我的意思是，我们的一位也在海豹突击队的好朋友说，有人对我说，他说，你知道，摔跤手是不同的。

And I think he meant different in quotes.

我认为他在引号中的意思有所不同。

I think that's true.

我认为这是真的。

I, you know, School, my grades immediately went up, Andrew.

我，你知道，学校，我的成绩立即提高了，安德鲁。

It was like, oh my gosh, the discipline of all of it.

这就像，天哪，这一切的纪律。

My grades were always better.

我的成绩总是比较好。

In wrestling season than out of wrestling season.

摔跤季节内比摔跤季节外要好。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Like when I was cut loose out of the structure, then it wasn't good.

就像当我从结构中脱离出来时，情况就不好了。

And, you know, between seventh and eighth grade and all that, I didn't have any crazy shenanigans going on.

而且，你知道，在七年级和八年级之间，我没有发生任何疯狂的恶作剧。

I wasn't going to get kicked out of school, whatever.

无论如何，我不会被学校开除。

I was doing normal stuff for the age, but...

我在这个年纪做着正常的事情，但是......

So the fight stopped.

于是战斗停止了。

Totally.

完全。

Totally, because I could put it into...

完全是因为我可以把它放进...

I could put it into the wrestling space, you know?

我可以把它放进摔跤场，你知道吗？

And I think, I grew up, obviously, in New Orleans, and...

我想，显然，我是在新奥尔良长大的，而且……

I think You know, down there, it's baseball, football, basketball.

我想你知道，下面有棒球、橄榄球、篮球。

Wrestling is not.

摔跤则不然。

I mean, I was lucky to wrestle in college at all because it wasn't like Iowa was looking to recruit me.

我的意思是，我很幸运能够在大学摔跤，因为爱荷华州并不想招募我。

You know, they have plenty of people to recruit, and they don't need any Louisiana wrestlers.

你知道，他们有很多人可以招募，而且他们不需要路易斯安那州的摔跤手。

Although Daniel Cormier grew up, like, north of the lake.

尽管丹尼尔·科米尔（Daniel Cormier）是在湖以北长大的。

He was four years younger.

他比他小四岁。

I was telling this to somebody.

我正对某人讲过这件事。

We don't know each other.

我们互不认识。

I'd love to meet him.

我很想见见他。

Super impressive athlete.

超级令人印象深刻的运动员。

We heard.

我们听说了。

That, hey, there's some kid up in the North Shore.

那个，嘿，北岸有一个孩子。

I think is where he grew up whooping everybody's ass.

我想这就是他在所有人的屁股里长大的地方。

His name's Daniel Cormier, and then, you know, obviously the rest is history.

他的名字叫丹尼尔·科米尔，然后，你知道，显然剩下的都是历史了。

But the sport is not big in Louisiana, which is all to say that...

但这项运动在路易斯安那州并不盛行，这就是说……

We were kind of a unicorn.

我们有点像独角兽。

We had, it was very odd at my high school specifically, we had one coach, his son either national runner-up.

我们有，特别是在我的高中，这很奇怪，我们有一位教练，他的儿子要么是全国亚军。

His name was Willie Gadsden.

他的名字叫威利·加兹登。

Willie passed away.

威利去世了。

I think his son ended up at Iowa State, and within the last five or six years was either a national champ or a runner-up.

我认为他的儿子最终进入了爱荷华州立大学，并且在过去的五六年内要么获得了全国冠军，要么获得了亚军。

Willie, when I was in eighth grade, Andrew, Willie was at my high school.

威利，当我八年级时，安德鲁，威利在我的高中。

Like, I have no idea how Willie Gadsden ended up in New Orleans, but we ended up with this cluster.

就像，我不知道威利·加兹登是如何来到新奥尔良的，但我们最终得到了这个集群。

Of wrestlers at that time with the right coaching and a few kids were going to junior college and coming back and wrestling in college and coming back and There were three or four guys, I remember specifically in eighth grade, because I started, at least in the junior high ranks, I started to take off my second year.

当时有正确教练的摔跤手和一些孩子去专科大学，然后回来，在大学摔跤，然后回来，有三四个人，我特别记得八年级，因为我开始，至少在初中，我开始起飞我的第二年。

These guys would abuse me in the wrestling room.

这些家伙会在摔跤室里虐待我。

They were seniors in high school.

他们是高中生。

I was 112 pounds or 132 pounds my freshman year.

大一那年我的体重是 112 磅或 132 磅。

And they would just, in my eighth grade year, and they would just abuse me.

在我八年级的时候，他们就会虐待我。

Define abuse.

定义虐待。

In all the legal, normal wrestling ways.

以所有合法、正常的摔跤方式。

Like, there's the...

就像，有...

Wrestling gets broken up, obviously, by weights.

显然，摔跤是被重量所打破的。

You've got the heavyweights on one end of the room, the lightweights on the other end of the room, and the young kids stay with the young kids for the most part.

重量级的人在房间的一端，轻量级的人在房间的另一端，而小孩子们大部分时间都和小孩子们呆在一起。

And a few of these guys would drag me down to the varsity end, and I would wrestle with the middleweights, and they would beat the shit out of me.

其中一些人会把我拖到大学代表队，我会和中量级选手摔跤，他们会把我打败。

And...

还有...

Eventually you get to the point where you're like, fuck this, I had enough.

最终你会觉得，去他妈的，我受够了。

And that's when sort of things started to turn.

就在那时，事情开始发生转变。

But I think that wrestlers are different, and my peer group...

但我认为摔跤手是不同的，我的同龄人群体......

One or two of my really good friends wrestled.

我的一两个真正的好朋友摔跤了。

But most of them played other sports.

但他们大多数人都参加其他运动。

And so...

所以...

But...

但是...

In every sense of the word, life got better for me because of that sport.

从各个方面来说，这项运动都让我的生活变得更好。

It changed my life.

它改变了我的生活。

So you wrestled all through high school?

所以你整个高中都在摔跤吗？

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Yep.

是的。

At that point, were you discovering relationships, girls?

那时，女孩们，你们发现人际关系了吗？

Were you partying?

你参加派对吗？

Were you a drinker?

你喝酒吗？

Use drugs?

使用药物？

No drugs.

没有药物。

I mean, it's New Orleans, right?

我的意思是，这是新奥尔良，对吧？

It's like one of the things that was tough.

这就像一件艰难的事情。

I'm glad I got out of the city, frankly, because it was party time outside the season.

坦白说，我很高兴我离开了这座城市，因为那是季节之外的聚会时间。

Yeah, girls, girlfriends, normal stuff in that regard.

是的，女孩，女朋友，在这方面很正常。

Lots of drinking.

大量饮酒。

Lots of rat in the streets, you know, in those days in the 90s.

你知道，在 90 年代的那些日子里，街上有很多老鼠。

But you kept it inside the lane lines.

但你把它保持在车道线内。

It sounds like no drunk driving, no arrests.

听起来没有醉酒驾驶，也没有被捕。

A little bit of that, but nothing crazy in that regard.

有一点点，但在这方面并没有什么疯狂的。

I think I understood the consequences, and I really cared about my career.

我想我理解后果，而且我真的很关心我的职业生涯。

I really wanted to wrestle in college.

我真的很想在大学里摔跤。

My grades were excellent.

我的成绩非常好。

My SAT score is not so much.

我的 SAT 成绩没那么高。

But, um...

但是，嗯...

I started winning really fast and you know my last two years in high school I was 89 no and I almost won my sophomore year so I was Runner-up in the state my sophomore year.

我开始赢得很快，你知道我在高中的最后两年我是 89 不，我几乎赢得了我的大二，所以我在大二那年获得了该州的亚军。

I always joke with the boys.

我总是和男孩们开玩笑。

All my boys are way better athletes than I ever could think about.

我所有的孩子都是比我想象的更好的运动员。

Your sons?

你的儿子们？

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

And, um...

而且，嗯...

But in eighth grade, I made Varsity and it was like, was it eighth grade?

但在八年级时，我参加了校队，当时的感觉是，那是八年级吗？

Yeah.

是的。

And I lost like.

我失去了喜欢。

75% of the matches, you know, but you just grind it out.

75% 的比赛，你知道，但你只是苦苦挣扎。

And it's how I got into the Naval Academy, which is a whole nother story.

这就是我进入海军学院的方式，这完全是另一回事了。

So let's talk about that.

那么我们来谈谈这个吧。

So you finish high school.

所以你高中毕业了。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

You head to the Naval Academy.

您前往海军学院。

Why the Naval Academy?

为什么是海军学院？

There's actually a crazy story behind this, which maybe we'll circle back to, but...

这背后实际上有一个疯狂的故事，也许我们会回过头来，但是......

The summer?

夏天？

Gosh, I had forgotten that this started in seventh grade, too.

天哪，我忘了这也是从七年级开始的。

The summer between my seventh and eighth grade year, my grandfather was too...

我七年级和八年级之间的那个夏天，我的祖父也......

Young to join the Navy, and he wanted to go to the Naval Academy during World War II.

年轻时加入海军，二战期间他想去海军学院学习。

And he lied to the recruiter and he got into the Merchant Marines.

他对征兵人员撒了谎，然后就加入了商船队。

His, I'm pretty sure, first cousin.

我很确定，他是他的表弟。

My uncle and my cousins are like first cousins once removed.

我的叔叔和我的表兄弟姐妹就像被移走的表兄弟姐妹一样。

My uncle Jim Therrell was at a family reunion in Mississippi.

我的叔叔吉姆·瑟雷尔正在密西西比州参加一个家庭聚会。

Which we were at.

我们当时所处的位置。

And he didn't mention the Naval Academy.

他没有提到海军学院。

Family reunion ends.

家庭团聚结束。

They all go home.

他们都回家了。

And he starts sending me Naval Academy paraphernalia.

他开始给我寄海军学院用具。

I knew nothing about the military.

我对军队一无所知。

And...

还有...

I just thought about it, you know, and he would send me stuff, you know, you didn't, we didn't have the internet, right?

我只是想了一下，你知道，他会给我发东西，你知道，你没有，我们没有互联网，对吗？

He's sending these booklets.

他正在寄出这些小册子。

And you don't like authority.

而且你不喜欢权威。

No. So I've not been in the military, but I've done some work with y'all.

不，所以我没有参过军，但我和你们一起做了一些工作。

Yeah.

是的。

And there's a lot of hierarchy and authority.

而且有很多等级制度和权威。

Yeah, that's true.

是的，确实如此。

The truth, Andrew, is like, it was just, it just seemed exciting.

安德鲁，事实是，这只是，这看起来令人兴奋。

I wasn't really thinking about the implications as 18 year olds, you know, it looked very exciting to me.

作为 18 岁的孩子，我并没有真正考虑过这意味着什么，你知道，这对我来说看起来非常令人兴奋。

And Having gotten some professional help in the intervening years, what I really think was a big part of it?

在这些年里获得了一些专业帮助后，我真正认为其中重要的部分是什么？

Was my parents got divorced my senior year in high school and The Family Unit just blew up, right?

我的父母在我高中四年级时离婚了，然后家庭单位就爆炸了，对吗？

And so...

所以...

It also represented an escape.

这也代表着一种逃避。

You know, get out and go.

你知道，出去走吧。

Get your life out of New Orleans and just go.

让你的生活离开新奥尔良，然后就走吧。

Just go do something.

去做点事吧。

Were you a part of that?

你是其中的一部分吗？

That obviously you were part of the family that got divorced.

显然你是离婚家庭的一员。

Was it chaotic?

混乱吗？

Was it controlled?

被控制了吗？

You and I are the exact same age.

你和我同龄。

We're both 48, born in 75.

我们都是75年出生的，今年48岁。

Back then it was a lot less common for people being, they called them broken homes back then.

那时候人们还不太常见，他们称之为破屋。

Nowadays, I don't think they call that.

如今，我认为他们不再这么称呼了。

Everyone just cites the statistic that more than half of marriages end in divorce as if perhaps to normalize it, but that's more than half.

每个人都只是引用统计数据，即一半以上的婚姻以离婚告终，似乎是为了使这种现象正常化，但实际上这个数字超过了一半。

Do you recall feeling distraught about that?

你还记得为此感到心烦意乱吗？

Or was it just kind of the natural consequence of something you had observed a long time?

或者这只是你长期以来观察到的一些事情的自然结果？

Like, oh, that kind of makes sense.

就像，哦，这是有道理的。

No, it was a shock to me.

不，这对我来说很震惊。

It wasn't a shock to my older sister.

这对我姐姐来说并不感到震惊。

Um...

嗯...

I just remember, this was the thought at the time.

我只记得，当时就是这么想的。

This was like seared in my brain.

这就像烙印在我的脑海里一样。

This has nothing to do with me.

这与我无关。

That wasn't like some sophisticated view.

这不像是一些复杂的观点。

It was mostly, fuck this, I'm not dealing with this.

主要是，操这个，我不处理这个。

I have my own life.

我有我自己的生活。

They're going to have to do what they're going to do, meaning my parents.

他们必须做他们要做的事，也就是说我的父母。

I'm getting the hell out of here.

我要离开这里。

Not a bad mindset for a kid at that stage.

对于那个阶段的孩子来说，这是一个不错的心态。

If it had been four years younger, that might not be the best mindset.

如果年轻四岁，这可能不是最好的心态。

But as you're heading off to college, that's...

但当你即将上大学时，那就是……

Reasonably healthy mindset as opposed to getting enmeshed in the what happened and this and that can i ask you at that stage you're 17 18 years old at that point Were you journaling at that point?

相当健康的心态，而不是陷入所发生的事情和这个那个我可以问你在那个阶段你17岁18岁那个时候你写日记吗？

No. No, no journaling, no introspective work.

不，不，没有日记，没有内省工作。

Zero.

零。

No school psychologists.

没有学校心理学家。

No thinking about or talking about your feelings.

不考虑或谈论您的感受。

It's Wrestling Naval Academy, social things.

这是摔跤海军学院，社交活动。

School SATs, like very standard.

学校SAT考试，非常标准。

We're almost like talking like a superficial list of like what happens at the end of high school in 1990.

我们几乎就像在谈论 1990 年高中毕业时发生的事情的肤浅清单。

Andrew, it's the word superficial, and I carried this forward for years.

安德鲁，这是“肤浅”这个词，多年来我一直沿用这个词。

Which I'm sure we'll talk about here in a second.

我相信我们稍后会讨论这一点。

Those binary focus areas.

那些二元焦点领域。

Like, I was literally just going after them at full steam.

就像，我真的是在全力追赶他们。

Stronger, faster, more intensity with zero introspection, no excavation of the psychology of anything.

更强、更快、更强烈，零内省，不挖掘任何事物的心理。

Just full steam ahead, like, let's go.

全力以赴，我们走吧。

No meditation, no breath work.

没有冥想，没有呼吸练习。

Zero.

零。

Which was not.

但事实并非如此。

Adaptive in the long run.

从长远来看是适应性的。

And we'll get to how that played out in the long run.

我们将了解从长远来看这将如何发挥作用。

But nonetheless, you got into the Naval Academy.

但尽管如此，你还是进入了海军学院。

Didn't first.

首先没有。

Okay.

好的。

So I applied.

所以我申请了。

You know, my uncle's doing all this stuff.

你知道，这些事情都是我叔叔做的。

Anyway, I applied.

无论如何，我申请了。

And I didn't, I still have the letter of the thanks, but no thanks.

我没有，我还有感谢信，但没有谢谢。

You know, you're not qualified.

你知道，你没有资格。

How'd that hit you?

这对你有何打击？

At the time, it hit me kind of like everything I did when that age, when it didn't work out.

当时，它对我的​​打击就像我那个年纪所做的一切一样，当时都没有成功。

Admittedly, Andrew, it was like...

不可否认，安德鲁，这就像......

There's got to be a way around this.

必须有办法解决这个问题。

Like, shit has to work out.

就像，狗屎必须解决。

But it feels terrible, right?

但感觉很可怕，对吧？

Like, you have a moment of, what do we do?

就像，你有那么一刻，我们该怎么办？

And...

还有...

My kids have heard the story a million times.

我的孩子们已经听过这个故事一百万次了。

My wife was a blue chip swimming recruit for Navy.

我的妻子是一名海军蓝筹游泳新兵。

And so she was into the Naval Academy when she was at the beginning of her senior year of high school.

因此，当她高三开始时，她就进入了海军学院。

Right?

正确的？

What's a blue chip?

什么是蓝筹股？

I mean, in my understanding, a blue chip is like you are at the very top of the list, and the coaches put you straight into the admission cycle saying, nobody else gets in until this person does.

我的意思是，根据我的理解，蓝筹股就像你位于名单的最顶端，教练将你直接放入录取周期，说，除非这个人进入，否则没有其他人进入。

So they wanted her, they didn't want you.

所以他们想要她，而不想要你。

Not only was she a blue chip, and I got the no.

她不仅是蓝筹股，我也得到了第一。

I guess.

我猜。

Well, the wrestling coach called me a couple of weeks after my no, which is now in May.

嗯，摔跤教练在我拒绝后几周给我打电话，现在是五月。

I'm about to graduate from high school.

我即将高中毕业。

I'm not accepted anywhere.

我在任何地方都不被接受。

You only applied one place.

你只申请了一处。

Actually, two, which...

事实上，两个，哪个...

You may burst out laughing when I tell you what the other one is.

当我告诉你另一个是什么时，你可能会大笑起来。

Because no internet, I got a mailer.

因为没有互联网，所以我收到了一封邮件。

In a pamphlet from Stanford, the wrestling coach.

在斯坦福大学的一本小册子中，摔跤教练。

I didn't know what Stanford was.

我不知道斯坦福是什么。

I had no idea that the college was even prestigious.

我不知道这所大学甚至享有盛誉。

I didn't know they had a wrestling team.

我不知道他们有摔跤队。

I filled out the application and wrote the letter thing, and I sent it into Stanford and, of course, never heard back from them.

我填写了申请表并写了信，然后将其发送到斯坦福大学，当然，从未收到他们的回复。

But I applied to two places, Stanford and the U.

但我申请了两个地方，斯坦福大学和美国大学。

S.

S。

Naval Academy.

海军学院。

Well, for those that follow wrestling, that's a great story.

嗯，对于那些关注摔跤的人来说，这是一个很棒的故事。

And I'll just briefly mention that a few years ago, there almost wasn't a wrestling team at Stanford.

我只想简单地提一下，几年前，斯坦福大学几乎没有摔跤队。

They had plans to cut the wrestling team despite having a— NCAA champion at Stanford.

尽管斯坦福大学有一位 NCAA 冠军，但他们还是计划削减摔跤队。

But, you know, the power of people gathering and petitioning works and wrestling and a few other sports that were being cut from the curriculum.

但是，你知道，人们聚集和请愿的力量以及摔跤和其他一些运动都被从课程中删除了。

Were spared.

幸免于难。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

Rescued.

获救了。

So happy to see that.

很高兴看到这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

So Stanford does have a wrestling team.

所以斯坦福确实有一支摔跤队。

So the coach, back to how I ended up getting in.

那么教练，回到我最终是如何进入的。

I appreciated my college coach called and he said that I'm recruiting.

我很感谢我的大学教练打电话给我，他说我正在招募。

I have one more spot at the prep school, which is in Newport, Rhode Island.

我在罗德岛州纽波特的预科学校还有一个名额。

I'm recruiting another kid from Pennsylvania.

我正在招募另一个来自宾夕法尼亚州的孩子。

If he takes that spot, then I don't have anything left.

如果他占据了那个位置，那么我就什么都没有了。

And we were exploring going to prep school and stuff like that, oblique ways to get in.

我们正在探索去预科学校之类的东西，间接的进入方式。

And he called me sometime in May, like right around graduation, and said, can you be in Newport in July?

他在五月的某个时候打电话给我，比如毕业前后，他说，你能七月来纽波特吗？

That kid went to, I think he went to Lehigh.

那个孩子去了，我想他去了利哈伊。

And I went to the prep school.

我去了预科学校。

Newport, Rhode Island.

罗德岛州纽波特。

Yeah, Newport for a year.

是的，纽波特一年了。

I've been It's a nice place.

我去过 这是一个不错的地方

Yeah, it's great.

是的，太棒了。

And so you wrestle for a year.

就这样你们摔跤了一年。

I mean, you do school.

我的意思是，你上学。

You know, you're in West Point as a prep school and Colorado Springs as a prep school.

你知道，你在西点军校是一所预科学校，在科罗拉多斯普林斯是一所预科学校。

We joked that my wife was first person in our class accepted and I was last.

我们开玩笑说我的妻子是我们班第一个被录取的人，而我是最后一个。

Which is highly possible, actually.

实际上，这是很有可能的。

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

By now, most of you have heard me tell my story about how I've been taking AG1 once or twice a day every day since 2012.

到目前为止，你们中的大多数人都已经听过我讲述自 2012 年以来我如何每天服用一到两次 AG1 的故事。

And indeed, that's true.

确实如此。

I started taking AG1 and I still take AG1 once or twice a day because it gives me vitamins and minerals that I might not be getting enough of from whole foods that I eat, as well as adaptogens and micronutrients.

我开始服用 AG1，现在仍然每天服用一到两次，因为它为我提供了我可能无法从我吃的天然食物中获取的维生素和矿物质，以及适应原和微量营养素。

Those adaptogens and micronutrients are really critical because even though I strive to eat most of my foods from unprocessed or minimally processed whole foods, It's often hard to do so, especially when I'm traveling and especially when I'm busy.

这些适应原和微量营养素非常重要，因为尽管我努力吃未经加工或最低限度加工的天然食品中的大部分食物，但通常很难做到这一点，特别是当我在旅行时，尤其是当我很忙时。

So by drinking a packet of AG1 in the morning, and oftentimes also again in the afternoon or evening, I'm ensuring that I'm getting everything I need.

因此，通过早上喝一包 AG1，并且经常在下午或晚上再喝一次，我可以确保获得我需要的一切。

I'm covering all of my foundational nutritional needs.

我满足了我所有的基本营养需求。

And I, like so many other people that take AG1 regularly, just report feeling better.

我和许多其他定期服用 AG1 的人一样，只是报告感觉好多了。

And that shouldn't be surprising because it supports gut health.

这并不奇怪，因为它支持肠道健康。

And of course, gut health supports.

当然，肠道健康也有支持。

Immune system health and brain health, and it's supporting a ton of different cellular and organ processes that all interact with one another.

免疫系统健康和大脑健康，它支持大量相互相互作用的不同细胞和器官过程。

So while certain supplements are really directed towards one specific outcome, like sleeping better or being more alert, AG1 really is foundational nutritional support.

因此，虽然某些补充剂确实针对一种特定的结果，例如睡得更好或更加警觉，但 AG1 确实是基础营养支持。

It's really designed to support all of the systems of your brain and body that relate to mental health and physical health.

它的真正目的是支持与心理健康和身体健康相关的大脑和身体的所有系统。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，您可以访问 Drinkag1.comlash Huberman 以获得特别优惠。

They'll give you five free travel packs with your order, plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.

您订购后，他们将赠送 5 个免费旅行套装，以及一年的维生素 D3K2。

Again, that's drinkag1.com slash Huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com 斜线 Huberman。

So you're in Newport.

所以你在纽波特。

Does that have a portal to the Naval Academy?

有通往海军学院的门户吗？

Yeah, if you graduate prep school, you're straight into the Naval Academy.

是的，如果你从预科学校毕业，你就可以直接进入海军学院。

Like they fully expect you to be there the next year.

就像他们完全希望你明年还能去那里一样。

When junior year rolled around and senior year rolled around of high school, didn't anyone pull you aside and say, hey, you might want to like apply to a few other places?

当高中三年级和四年级到来时，没有人把你拉到一边说，嘿，你可能想申请一些其他的地方？

You might want to consider what?

您可能要考虑什么？

You do if this doesn't work out, what do they assume you're going to do?

如果这不起作用，他们会认为你会做什么？

They just head into the city of New Orleans and bus tables?

他们只是前往新奥尔良市和公交车表？

Zero guidance, Andrew, really, like from my high school.

安德鲁，零指导，真的，就像我高中时那样。

And I think.

我认为。

The ecosystem I was in, like people just didn't really know how to do that.

我所处的生态系统，就像人们真的不知道该怎么做一样。

You know how to apply to schools.

您知道如何申请学校。

I mean, my parents obviously helped when I applied to the Naval Academy, but when I look at the system that kids go through now to go, you know, their process to find the best college experience.

我的意思是，当我申请海军学院时，我的父母显然提供了帮助，但是当我看看孩子们现在所经历的系统时，你知道，他们寻找最好的大学经历的过程。

I never had one conversation with a guidance counselor about what to do.

我从未与指导顾问讨论过该做什么。

I just didn't.

我只是没有。

I mean, I just got very lucky.

我的意思是，我只是非常幸运。

A few people, my high school wrestling coach intervened, I think at some point, and called the Naval Academy to speak to the coach to say, you should give this kid a chance, but he didn't, they didn't know who he was, you know?

有几个人，我的高中摔跤教练介入了，我想在某个时候，打电话给海军学院对教练说，你应该给这个孩子一个机会，但他没有，他们不知道他是谁，你知道吗？

I'm so lucky and so fortunate that I ended up where I ended up.

我是如此幸运，如此幸运，我最终到达了我最终到达的地方。

It's why I took it so seriously.

这就是为什么我如此认真地对待它。

The focus with which I applied my time In high school, I took that to 10x degree when I got to Newport because I knew this was my chance.

我在高中时运用时间的重点，当我到达纽波特时，我把这个程度提高到了十倍，因为我知道这是我的机会。

There's something magical to that.

这有一些神奇之处。

I can relate to that.

我可以理解这一点。

So you're in Newport.

所以你在纽波特。

Yeah.

是的。

And describe what a day was like.

并描述一天是什么样的。

Is it all wrestling?

都是摔跤吗？

You're taking...

你正在服用...

General education classes like one does in the first two years of university.

通识教育课程就像大学前两年的课程一样。

So the way the prep school is set up for the Naval Academy is they're basically teaching you the first semester of the Naval Academy.

因此，海军学院预科学校的设置方式基本上是教你海军学院的第一学期。

So you take...

所以你拿...

Calculus, physics, chemistry, I think you take an English class, etc.

微积分、物理、化学，我想你上过英语课等等。

And you go through like a pretty hellacious first couple of weeks because you're away from the flagpole where no one can hear you scream.

最初的几周你会经历得非常糟糕，因为你远离旗杆，没有人能听到你的尖叫声。

You know, you're up in Newport, you're not in Annapolis where everyone's watching.

你知道，你在纽波特，而不是在所有人都在关注的安纳波利斯。

And you do a couple of hellacious weeks for an 18 year old who's never been in the military before.

对于一个从未参过军的 18 岁年轻人来说，你要度过几周痛苦的时光。

So you're in the military technically, if you go to this.

所以从技术上来说，如果你这么做的话，你就在军队里。

You're actually enlisted in the Navy.

你实际上已经入伍了。

Okay.

好的。

So they get moonies to some extent.

所以他们在某种程度上得到了月亮。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, they do.

是的，他们确实这么做了。

And then you do.

然后你就这么做了。

You're wearing uniform, you're jogging in the morning, you're doing salutes and marching.

你穿着制服，早上慢跑，敬礼，游行。

Yep.

是的。

And you have bugling, they're doing taps in the evening.

还有号角声，他们在晚上敲锣打鼓。

Yep.

是的。

All of it.

所有这一切。

Got it.

知道了。

Yep.

是的。

And you live, there's 300 people at the prep school.

你还活着，预科学校有 300 人。

It's distributed basically amongst folks coming from the fleet, so guys who did four or five years in the military somewhere, and they're coming into the Naval Academy from the fleet.

它基本上分布在来自舰队的人中，所以那些在军队服役了四五年的人，他们从舰队进入海军学院。

And then athletes, and then sort of a mixture of other folks who need a little extra school, right?

然后是运动员，然后是其他一些需要额外学习的人，对吧？

And then you do a full school year.

然后你就完成一个完整的学年。

You're competing.

你在竞争。

It's basically a redshirt year.

这基本上是红衫年。

That's not a redshirt year.

那不是红衫年。

I competed up and down the East Coast against, you know, all the other prep schools.

我在东海岸各地与所有其他预科学校竞争。

You finish that year in May, and then you're done with the prep.

你在五月份完成了那一年的学习，然后你就完成了准备工作。

The prep year is fine.

预科年还好。

It's a little bit of a shock when you're 18, but it's fine.

当你18岁的时候，这有点令人震惊，但没关系。

I've always been curious about these military schools and the people that go to them and what happens to people there.

我一直对这些军事学校和就读这些学校的人以及那里的人发生了什么感到好奇。

Did you have any sense of patriotism prior to arriving at this prep school?

在来到这所预科学校之前，您有任何爱国主义意识吗？

And did that sense of patriotism, you know, I'm talking like love of country.

那种爱国主义意识，你知道，我说的是对国家的热爱。

Understanding the history of our country and its position in the international landscape.

了解我国的历史及其在国际格局中的地位。

Are you thinking about that stuff?

你在想那些事情吗？

Are they feeding you that?

他们给你吃那个吗？

Or is it really like wrestling, get through the march, shower up, go to the next thing?

或者真的像摔跤一样，完成行军，淋浴，然后进行下一件事？

Is it very like plug and chug?

是不是很像插头和突突？

No, no. The feeding of, and I really appreciated this, the feeding of those concepts starts when you get there.

不，不。我真的很欣赏这些概念的喂养，当你到达那里时就开始了。

But I was deer in a headlight, like I didn't think about.

但我是头灯下的鹿，就像我没有想到的那样。

My life in this way at all when I was headed there.

当我去那里时，我的生活就是这样的。

I mean...

我的意思是...

What you get very early because the school very quickly starts to bring really high-level, accomplished people.

你很早就得到了什么，因为学校很快就开始培养真正高水平、有成就的人才。

Colonels, admirals, whatever, generals, to expose you to these people.

上校，海军上将，无论如何，将军，让你暴露在这些人面前。

I do remember sitting there within weeks.

我确实记得几周后就坐在那里。

Like, this is way bigger than I thought it was in terms of...

就像，这比我想象的要大得多......

How serious this situation is, you know, and how serious this ecosystem of people take this because I didn't have.

你知道，这种情况有多严重，人们的生态系统对此也有多么严重，因为我没有。

My dad wasn't an admiral.

我父亲不是海军上将。

He was a welder in New Orleans.

他是新奥尔良的一名焊工。

I didn't understand the bigness of it.

我不明白它的伟大之处。

One of the reasons I ask this is that various times throughout my life, I've had this experience of seeing people close to me doing incredible work.

我问这个问题的原因之一是，在我一生中的很多次，我都有过这样的经历：看到我身边的人正在做着令人难以置信的工作。

When I was a postdoc at Stanford, I had Nobel Prize, was given that one week to the guy next door to me.

当我在斯坦福大学做博士后时，我获得了诺贝尔奖，这一周的时间授予了我隔壁的一个人。

So you see him in the morning and you're hearing it on the radio.

所以你早上会看到他，并且会在广播中听到他的声音。

And obviously, I didn't have that kind of stature or talent in science.

显然，我在科学方面没有那样的地位或天赋。

I think I'm a good scientist, but good enough to...

我认为我是一名优秀的科学家，但足以......

You don't get tenure at Stanford, but then there are levels within the game.

你不会在斯坦福大学获得终身教职，但游戏中还是有级别的。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

But there is something very special to the experience of having people close to you physically and in the same ecosystem as you described it.

但是，与你身体上亲近的人以及处于你所描述的同一生态系统中的经历是非常特别的。

Achieving amazing things.

实现令人惊奇的事情。

I also saw this in skateboarding.

我在滑板运动中也看到了这一点。

I mean, there were a lot of...

我的意思是，有很多...

Let's just say failures to.

就说失败吧。

Integrate with normal life.

与正常生活融为一体。

But there are also some guys that I grew up with who started companies and set world records and had their pro models.

但也有一些和我一起长大的人创办了公司，创造了世界纪录，并拥有自己的职业模特。

And then if you zoom out from that and you go, wait, I'm in this community, it changes one's self-view about what's possible.

然后，如果你把目光放远，你会发现，等等，我在这个社区中，它会改变一个人对可能性的自我看法。

So I think that's what you're describing.

所以我认为这就是你所描述的。

And I think it's such an important thing for people to experience at some point, even if the goal isn't to be at kind of world scale, you know, for people to realize that the town they grew up in, the family they grew up in, that context can expand.

我认为，对于人们来说，在某个时刻体验到这一点非常重要，即使目标不是在世界范围内进行，你知道，让人们意识到他们长大的城镇、他们长大的家庭，这种背景可以扩大。

Yes.

是的。

And so do you recall being at this prep school and kind of third person-ing yourself and thinking like, well, I'm Coleman Ruiz.

你还记得在这所预科学校时，你自己以第三人称的身份思考，好吧，我是科尔曼·鲁伊斯。

I'm from New Orleans.

我来自新奥尔良。

I went from this to this to this, the way you've been describing it.

我从这到这再到这，就像你所描述的那样。

And I'm here.

我在这里。

And they were like.

他们就像。

I'm around some incredibly impressive people and I'm here.

我身边有一些令人印象深刻的人，而我就在这里。

Like once you make that recognition that you're there, a whole bunch of things can open up.

就像一旦你认识到你在那里，一大堆事情就会开放。

No, I actually came at it from the opposite way.

不，我实际上是从相反的角度来考虑的。

And this has been a hard thing for me my whole life.

这对我一生来说都是一件困难的事情。

And I have to watch out.

我必须小心。

For this perspective, is I felt like every day I had to wake up.

从这个角度来看，我觉得我每天都必须醒来。

And earn my place there?

并在那里赢得我的位置？

I was never good enough for myself ever.

我从来都对自己不够好。

So next day up is a restart to prove myself again.

所以第二天就是重新开始，再次证明自己。

On whatever standard I'm picking that day, right?

无论我那天选择什么标准，对吗？

Looking back on it, I realize.

回想起来，我意识到。

It was somewhat arbitrary because it was just day by day.

这有点随意，因为它只是日复一日。

I didn't think, I'm Coleman Ruiz, I made it here, look, I'm part of this.

我没想到，我是科尔曼·鲁伊斯，我做到了这里，看，我是其中的一部分。

I was afraid.

我很害怕。

I think Mike Tyson talks about being afraid every time.

我认为迈克·泰森每次都会谈到害怕。

I was afraid every day.

我每天都害怕。

And I fought for...

而我为之奋斗...

Like a position in this place every day.

就像每天都在这个地方一样。

Now, that was adaptive in some regard, right?

现在，这在某些方面是适应性的，对吗？

Very.

非常。

Because to me it was...

因为对我来说这是...

Let's go.

我们走吧。

Like, today's another new day, and it's 100% all in, full go.

就像，今天又是新的一天，100%全力以赴，全力以赴。

I hope everybody's ready.

我希望每个人都准备好。

Do you ever recall falling asleep at night and thinking like...

你是否记得晚上睡觉时会想……

Well, like...

嗯，就像...

I had a good day.

我度过了愉快的一天。

I had a good day or I'm scared, you know, they're going to discover I can't keep up.

我度过了愉快的一天，否则我很害怕，你知道，他们会发现我跟不上。

Totally.

完全。

Or I can't keep up.

或者我跟不上。

All the time.

一直以来。

So a lot of fear.

所以有很多恐惧。

I mean...

我的意思是...

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, a lot of fear.

是的，有很多恐惧。

All the time.

一直以来。

And some of it I do, I genuinely know and believe, now Andrew, that it was well-intentioned.

其中一些是我所做的，我真的知道并相信，现在安德鲁，这是善意的。

Like, I wanted to do a good job for the group, whatever group I was in.

就像，我想为团队做好工作，无论我在哪个团队。

My platoon, my squad, in the case of the prep school, you know, that first experience.

我的排，我的小队，就预科学校而言，你知道，这是第一次经历。

I mean, I was talking about this with my wife the other day, just because stories come up.

我的意思是，前几天我正在和我的妻子谈论这个，只是因为有故事发生。

You know, we had a 25th reunion at the Naval Academy and this kind of thing.

你知道，我们在海军学院举行了第 25 次聚会之类的事情。

I was a really good runner for my group in high school, like the people I was around.

就像我周围的人一样，我在高中时是我们团队中非常优秀的跑步者。

I ran cross country when I was younger.

我年轻时曾越野跑。

And anyway, I did, I suppose I'm going the other way.

无论如何，我做到了，我想我会走另一条路。

I sort of did have some level of confidence in my ability.

我确实对自己的能力有一定程度的信心。

And then I got there and like all these college cross country runners, like my son is now, just crushing me.

然后我到了那里，就像所有这些大学越野跑运动员一样，就像我儿子现在一样，压垮了我。

And I think, sadly, because it was just sort of in me, that fed my fear.

可悲的是，我想，因为它只是在我体内，助长了我的恐惧。

Like, shit, I thought I was better than this.

就像，妈的，我以为我比这更好。

Clearly, I suck.

显然，我很烂。

I have to get to their level.

我必须达到他们的水平。

So I did have a very well-intentioned excitement around just do a good job with the people you're around.

所以我确实有一种非常善意的兴奋，就是与周围的人一起做好工作。

There's something.

有东西。

Onto that and wild you know as we spoke about Um...

当我们谈到嗯时，你知道这一点和狂野......

But I was operating out of fear for...

但我是出于恐惧而行动的……

Decades.

几十年了。

But there was a I need to get to their level statement in there.

但我需要了解他们的水平。

It wasn't I can't keep up.

不是我跟不上。

I better find a different path.

我最好找到一条不同的路。

No, no, no, no. I knew I could get to their level with enough work.

不，不，不，不。我知道通过足够的努力我可以达到他们的水平。

You know.

你知道。

Was that something that your father or your mother or both had instilled in you?

这是你的父亲、母亲或两者灌输给你的吗？

Oh, for sure.

哦，当然。

Yeah.

是的。

And my high school wrestling coach was...

我的高中摔跤教练是...

Let's call it maybe from the old school.

我们可以称其为“老派”。

If you worked hard enough, you could get there.

如果你足够努力，你就能到达那里。

So this is the essence of growth mindset long before Charles Dweck coined the phrase growth mindset.

因此，早在查尔斯·德韦克（Charles Dweck）创造“成长心态”一词之前，这就是成长心态的本质。

It's not there yet.

它还没有到那里。

When I first read her book, I'm like...

当我第一次读她的书时，我觉得...

When people teach us to shit when we were kids.

当我们还是孩子的时候，人们教我们拉屎。

Yeah.

是的。

You know?

你知道？

Well, some of us got it, some of us didn't.

好吧，我们中的一些人得到了它，而我们中的一些人则没有。

And it can be very context.

这可能是非常有背景的。

Dependent, right?

依赖吧？

I mean, I think that's one of the more important and often overlooked aspects of Carol's work and Allie Crum's work is that we can develop growth mindset in one domain of life, but then another domain of life, we get, you know, kicked in the teeth once and we're like, I can't do that.

我的意思是，我认为卡罗尔和艾莉·克拉姆的工作中更重要且经常被忽视的方面之一是，我们可以在生活的一个领域培养成长心态，但在生活的另一个领域，我们会被，你知道，有一次被踢到牙齿，我们会想，我不能那样做。

There's a carve out where I can't function.

那里有一个我无法工作的地方。

Some people do that.

有些人这样做。

Some people don't.

有些人则不然。

And we don't understand enough about it to understand, you know, whether or not it's a global circuit, you know, and it's, there's a lot of context, but.

我们对它的了解还不够，无法理解，你知道，它是否是一个全球电路，你知道，而且它有很多背景，但是。

Okay, so you're hanging in there at least.

好吧，所以你至少要坚持下去。

You're surrounded by some very impressive people.

你周围都是一些令人印象深刻的人。

There's a lot of structure.

有很多结构。

So we're a long way from the pre-wrestling days.

所以我们距离摔跤前的日子还有很长的路要走。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Yeah.

是的。

This is the opposite of chaos.

这与混乱相反。

Totally.

完全。

This is structure.

这是结构。

Yeah.

是的。

You're told what to do every five minutes, more or less.

每五分钟或多或少就会告诉您该做什么。

And this is scary feelings.

这是一种可怕的感觉。

Fear is a scary feeling.

恐惧是一种可怕的感觉。

But you're channeling it.

但你正在引导它。

And you said the unit of the day became important.

你说当天的单位变得很重要。

It's like, what can I do today?

就像，我今天能做什么？

Yes.

是的。

You're not thinking about the week.

你没有考虑这周的事情。

You're not thinking about the season.

你没有考虑季节。

You're not thinking about...

你没有考虑...

Becoming some war hero down the line, you're just...

成为未来的战争英雄，你只是......

24 hours.

24小时。

Do the next day.

第二天再做。

Yeah.

是的。

How was your self-care at that point?

当时您的自我保健情况如何？

Or is that built into the system?

还是系统内置的？

It's not built into the system and it was zero.

它没有内置到系统中并且为零。

I mean, it really was, Andrew.

我的意思是，确实如此，安德鲁。

Like, it was the old school.

就像，这是老学校。

We were not doing anything sophisticated back then.

那时我们并没有做任何复杂的事情。

I mean, there's no...

我的意思是，没有...

We stretched.

我们伸了个懒腰。

And in the grand scheme of things...

从宏伟的计划来看......

This is going to sound weird because there still is a lot of primal nature to combat sports, But in the grand scheme of things, we were probably on the upper end of sophisticated like wrestlers jump rope, they stretch, they do aerobics, you know.

这听起来很奇怪，因为格斗运动仍然有很多原始本质，但从长远来看，我们可能处于复杂的高端，就像摔跤手跳绳一样，他们伸展身体，他们做有氧运动，你知道。

I've been in a sauna since 1993.

我从 1993 年起就开始蒸桑拿了。

You know, it's like not purposeful, not to cut weight in a garbage bag, but there is some level of...

你知道，这就像没有目的，不是为了减轻垃圾袋的重量，但有一定程度的......

Some level of balancing out your training, you know?

在某种程度上平衡你的训练，你知道吗？

Wrestlers like to swim during the season because you're getting out of that hot room.

摔跤手喜欢在这个季节游泳，因为你可以离开那个炎热的房间。

Like, you end up accidentally...

就像，你最终不小心...

Doing some of these things, but there was no self-care.

做了一些这样的事情，但没有自我照顾。

You eventually go to the Naval Academy.

你最终会去海军学院。

94.

94.

The actual Naval Academy.

真正的海军学院。

And that's where you met your wife.

那就是你遇见你妻子的地方。

Yep.

是的。

In 96, my sophomore year.

96年，我大二。

So when you get there, what's different than the prep school?

那么当你到达那里后，你会发现与预科学校有什么不同？

First of all, it's...

首先，它是...

Big in the...

大在...

Macro, not just geographically big or footprint square footage wise.

宏观，不仅仅是地理上的大或占地面积。

It's big.

它很大。

The concept is big.

这个概念很大。

You know, like.

你知道，就像。

The superintendent of the school is a three-star admiral.

学校的校长是一位三星级海军上将。

You hear about his career.

你听说过他的职业生涯。

You know, you're 19 years old.

你知道，你已经19岁了。

So there's two.

所以有两个。

Incredibly important people.

非常重要的人。

In my life, in those early years at the Naval Academy.

在我的生活中，在海军学院的早年。

A guy named Doug Zembeck, who's dead now.

一个名叫道格·赞贝克的人，现在已经死了。

Who most people...

谁大多数人...

Of my service time will know who he is.

我服役的时候就会知道他是谁。

When I was on my recruiting trip to the Naval Academy and I was in high school, this is complete accident.

当我去海军学院征兵时，我还在读高中，这完全是意外。

Doug was a sophomore.

道格当时是二年级学生。

We call them youngsters at the Naval Academy.

我们称他们为海军学院的年轻人。

He was a sophomore.

他当时是二年级学生。

And we're the same weight class.

而且我们体重级别相同。

So coach matched us up because it was my recruiting visit.

所以教练给我们匹配了因为这是我的招募访问。

And...

还有...

My first, this is back to being wild.

我的第一，这又回到了狂野。

Literally my first night on the grounds of the Naval Academy.

毫不夸张地说，这是我在海军学院的第一个晚上。

I'm sleeping on Doug Zembeck's floor of his room with his other two roommates.

我和他的另外两个室友睡在 Doug Zembeck 房间的地板上。

And sometime around 3 or 4 a.

有时大约凌晨 3 点或 4 点。

m.

米。

I get woken up.

我被吵醒了。

It's like a bomb goes off.

就像一颗炸弹爆炸了。

There's a bomb didn't go off, but there's 12 other gorillas in the room, all wrestlers, maybe one or two other guys.

有一颗炸弹没有爆炸，但房间里还有其他 12 只大猩猩，都是摔跤手，也许还有一两个人。

And...

还有...

Doug is hustling.

道格正在忙碌。

I don't know any of these people, Andrew.

我不认识这些人，安德鲁。

Like, I just met Doug the previous evening.

就像，我前一天晚上才见到道格。

We just flew into town.

我们刚刚飞进城。

He wakes me up.

他叫醒我。

He's hustling me to get my shoes on.

他催促我穿鞋。

Again, I'm just this high school kid.

再说一遍，我只是个高中生。

And then within two to three minutes.

然后两到三分钟之内。

All 15 of these gorillas bolt out of the room.

所有 15 只大猩猩都冲出了房间。

And Doug grabs me and I'm just following them, right?

道格抓住了我，我就跟着他们，对吧？

So we race out of Bancroft Hall.

于是我们就跑出了班克罗夫特大厅。

It's maybe 4 in the morning, 3.30, 4 in the morning.

大概是凌晨4点，3.30，凌晨4点。

We race out of Bancroft Hall, the barracks.

我们跑出班克罗夫特大厅，即军营。

We run across the parking lot into Lejeune Hall.

我们穿过停车场进入勒琼大厅。

And Lejeune Hall is...

勒琼大厅是...

The swimming facility.

游泳设施。

And the wrestling room.

还有摔跤室。

That's it.

就是这样。

That's the only thing that's in there.

那是里面唯一的东西。

Right, the doors, we run up to Lejeune Hall, the doors of Lejeune Hall are locked with a chain on the outside and one of our, Doug pulls on the chain.

对了，门，我们跑到Lejeune Hall，Lejeune Hall的门在外面用链子锁着，我们的一个，Doug拉着链子。

So that the doors open enough at the top that the 142 pounder can climb up and like get inside that little gap in the doors and run over and open one of the doors that isn't chained this is what you'll later do professionally i still have exactly and what i frankly did as a kid like back in the day and so I'm terrified because I don't know what's coming, you know?

这样顶部的门就打开得足够大，142磅重的炮可以爬上去，就像进入门上的那个小缝隙，跑过去，打开一扇没有锁链的门，这就是你以后专业做的事情，我仍然保留着，坦率地说，我小时候就是这么做的，就像当年一样，所以我很害怕，因为我不知道会发生什么，你知道吗？

And so you don't bother to ask, what are we doing?

所以你不必费心去问，我们在做什么？

There's no time.

没时间了。

There's just no time.

只是没有时间。

Like these guys are, to me, they're full blown war heroes.

就像这些人一样，对我来说，他们是成熟的战争英雄。

They're not, they're college kids, but I'm.

他们不是，他们是大学生，但我是。

17, they're 21, all these wrestlers.

17岁，他们21岁，所有这些摔跤手。

I'm hoping I'm going to come here and be their teammate, you know?

我希望我能来到这里成为他们的队友，你知道吗？

We run into Lejeune Hall, go to the second story.

我们跑进Lejeune Hall，去二楼。

We climb up the utility ladder.

我们爬上实用梯子。

Where Public Works goes to get in the ceiling above.

公共工程去哪里进入上面的天花板。

The white foamy ceiling tile things.

白色泡沫天花板瓷砖的东西。

So we're now on the catwalk where the HVAC guys would be working.

现在我们正处于暖通空调人员工作的T台上。

And I'm starting to get a sense of what's coming.

我开始了解即将发生的事情。

We go.

我们走吧。

A couple feet down the catwalk, everyone stops.

沿着T台走了几英尺，每个人都停了下来。

Someone reaches over the catwalk and pulls one.

有人伸手越过过道，拉了一把。

Chalky ceiling tile out.

白垩天花板瓷砖掉了。

So now you can look over the edge of the catwalk and see right through the ceiling into the diving well.

因此，现在您可以越过T台边缘，直接透过天花板看到潜水井。

Remember, the diving well has a 10 meter platform, and then we're another I don't want to over exaggerate this.

请记住，潜水井有一个 10 米的平台，然后我们是另一个我不想过分夸大这一点。

We have to be another 20 feet.

我们还得再跑20英尺。

Into the ceiling.

进入天花板。

So you're above the diving board, what most people call that.

所以你处于跳水板上，大多数人这么说。

We're way above the diving board.

我们远远高于跳水板。

Okay.

好的。

We're five feet above the ceiling, which is 20 feet above the 10 meter.

我们距离天花板 5 英尺，即 10 米高 20 英尺。

Right.

正确的。

And so.

所以。

And now, I've...

而现在，我已经...

Realize what's happening.

意识到发生了什么。

And two or three wrestlers, you climb over the catwalk, get, you know, backwards, get your hands all the way down and then very lower yourself in a reverse pull-up so you don't.

两三个摔跤手，你爬过过道，向后退，双手一直向下，然后以反向引体向上的方式降低身体，这样你就不会这样做。

Kick the ceiling tile.

踢天花板瓷砖。

And three or four guys go and you can hear them hit the water after what is a terrifyingly long time when you're, you know, my age and just in the dark.

三四个人去了，你可以听到他们在很长一段时间后敲入水面，而你知道，你是我这个年纪，而且只是在黑暗中。

Oh yeah.

哦，是的。

No one's supposed to be in there.

那里不应该有人。

Um...

嗯...

And then one of the guys looks over when you're a recruit you're called a drag And they're like, drag, you're up.

然后其中一个人看了看你，当你是一名新兵时，你被称为阻力，他们就像，阻力，你起来了。

And I'm lowering myself, Andrew, and I kick the adjacent ceiling tile and it hits.

我正在降低自己，安德鲁，我踢了相邻的天花板瓷砖，它击中了。

The dive tank and it turns into pancake batter and goes to the bottom of the pool.

潜水箱会变成煎饼面糊并沉入池底。

Oh my.

天哪。

And one of my teammates is like, you motherfucker.

我的一位队友说，你这个混蛋。

One of my future teammates, you know, he's going nuts.

我未来的一位队友，你知道，他快疯了。

I drop.

我掉落。

I live.

我活着。

And this is back to Doug.

这又回到了道格。

I come up, Doug clearly goes behind me, but I don't hear him.

我上来了，道格显然就在我身后，但我没有听到他的声音。

And one or two guys are going nuts, you high school piece of shit.

一两个人都疯了，你这个高中生。

Like, you're going to go down to the 15 feet and pick it all up.

就像，你要下到 15 英尺高，然后把它全部捡起来。

And Doug comes up and he...

道格出现了，他...

Just blasts everybody.

简直要炸死大家了

He's our responsibility.

他是我们的责任。

This is not his fault.

这不是他的错。

We brought him here.

我们把他带到这里来。

Like just totally backs me up.

就像完全支持我一样。

And then the rest of the visit happens.

然后剩下的访问就会发生。

I end up there.

我最终到了那里。

Doug's no senior.

道格并不高年级。

I'm a freshman.

我是一年级新生。

And...

还有...

He's just the legend.

他只是传说。

He was an All-American.

他是全美最佳球员。

And to this day, Andrew, you need to hear this loud and clear.

直到今天，安德鲁，你需要听到响亮而清晰的声音。

Like for all the people you and I both know and the people I've been around, no other human.

就像你我都认识的所有人以及我周围的人一样，没有其他人。

In my life have I met with his physical and mental toughness not even close.

在我的一生中，我从未见过他的身体和精神坚韧程度差强人意。

The guy was born in the wrong century is the way I describe him.

我是这样描述这个家伙出生在错误的世纪的。

And he was...

而他是...

Like my mentor and he was my guy, you know, and he was killed in 07.

就像我的导师一样，他是我的人，你知道，他在 07 年被杀了。

Marine.

海军陆战队。

Yeah, we'll talk about Doug.

是的，我们来谈谈道格。

You've written about him.

你写过关于他的文章。

Yeah, he's unbelievable.

是的，他令人难以置信。

So I feel like I know him a little bit, thanks to you.

所以我觉得我对他有点了解了，谢谢你。

We'll get around to that for sure.

我们肯定会解决这个问题。

I think people are getting a sense of where we're headed.

我认为人们正在了解我们的发展方向。

So that's the, to answer your question about like that, the bigness of the Naval Academy, that's how it started for me.

这就是，回答你的问题，海军学院的规模，这就是我的起点。

Like everything was just on steroids.

就像一切都只是打了类固醇一样。

You know, all these kinds of people.

你知道，所有这些人。

I get the impression, at least up until now, that you're kind of just You just go with what's right in front of you.

至少到目前为止，我的印象是，你只是随遇而安。

A hundred percent.

百分之一百。

Like there isn't a lot of pause and reflect.

就像没有太多的停顿和反思。

Although your rudder is not.

尽管你的舵不是。

Haphazard.

偶然。

It's not random.

这不是随机的。

No. Well, yeah, I can say right now, you and I are as similar as I, you know, we may be in certain respects like...

不，嗯，是的，我现在可以说，你和我就像我一样，你知道，我们可能在某些方面就像......

We're very different in this way.

我们在这方面非常不同。

Like there isn't a, there isn't like a foraging, you know, in biology, we call them random walks.

就像不存在，不存在觅食一样，你知道，在生物学中，我们称之为随机游走。

You know, a lot of, a lot of organization that comes out of biology is through random walks, like animal or human, like finds a node and moves.

你知道，很多很多来自生物学的组织都是通过随机游走的，就像动物或人类一样，比如找到一个节点并移动。

And, and life is like this Steve jobs talked about not being able to connect the dots except in retrospect.

而且，生活就是这样，史蒂夫·乔布斯谈到，除非回顾过去，否则无法将这些点联系起来。

And I, and I subscribe to that and his life was a bit of a random walk, but that we're guided by some central beam of, of uniqueness.

我和我都同意这一点，他的生活有点随意，但我们受到一些独特性的中心光束的引导。

Robert Green was when he was on the podcast talks about that.

罗伯特·格林在播客上谈到了这一点。

Your beam is more narrow, it seems.

看来你的光束更窄。

And the propeller behind that beam is high RPM.

横梁后面的螺旋桨转速很高。

Yes.

是的。

That's very clear.

这非常清楚。

And what I'm not hearing here is like, yeah, you know, at one point I paused and wondered whether or not I wanted to, you know, be here wrestling in the Naval Academy.

我在这里没有听到的是，是的，你知道，有一次我停了下来，想知道我是否想，你知道，在海军学院摔跤。

Or even what I might do when I get out.

或者甚至是我出去后可能会做什么。

Am I going to work for an investment firm?

我要去一家投资公司工作吗？

What am I going to do?

我要做什么？

Your horizon, it seems to be.

你的地平线，似乎是这样。

About 24 hours at that point.

那时大约24小时。

Yeah, I hope not anymore, but at that point.

是的，我希望不再是这样，但到那时。

No, at that point.

不，就在那时。

I mean, I'm no psychologist.

我的意思是，我不是心理学家。

Yeah.

是的。

But it just seems like you're, it's not like you're playing checkers, but you're optimizing for a fairly short horizon.

但看起来你并不是在玩跳棋，而是在相当短的时间内进行优化。

There's no question that's right.

毫无疑问这是正确的。

And the other part that was probably the most important to me, Andrew, was the person or the group.

安德鲁，对我来说最重要的另一部分可能是个人或团体。

Because...

因为...

This is going to sound very arrogant, but...

这听起来很傲慢，但是……

When I got to, I'm going to this prep school, I'm going to the Naval Academy.

当我到达时，我要去这所预科学校，我要去海军学院。

I think on day one, I'm going to literally meet the cream of the crop in the country.

我想在第一天，我将真正见到这个国家的精英。

And that was not the case.

但事实并非如此。

And it was not the case at the Naval Academy.

海军学院的情况并非如此。

And frankly, it wasn't the case in the teams either.

坦率地说，球队也不是这样的。

Like, I'm not saying I'm better than anybody, but I thought every single person when I got to the Naval Academy was going to be entirely focused on whatever our mission was.

就像，我并不是说我比任何人都好，但我认为当我进入海军学院时，每个人都会完全专注于我们的使命。

And I didn't even know what my mission was there, right?

我什至不知道我在那里的使命是什么，对吧？

I just knew I was going to be told what right looks like.

我只知道我会被告知什么是正义。

And Doug.

还有道格。

Not only did I meet him in high school and have the luck of having him as a teammate and a mentor, for me, he is what Wright looked like.

我不仅在高中时认识了他，并有幸拥有他作为队友和导师，对我来说，他就是赖特的样子。

So a focused beam and a propeller running at high RPM with the right, you know, quote-unquote swim buddy, so to speak.

因此，聚焦光束和螺旋桨以高转速运行，可以说，是正确的，你知道的，引用不引用的游泳伙伴。

Was literally all I cared about.

这确实是我所关心的。

That was it.

就是这样。

Everything else was white noise.

其他一切都是白噪音。

Were there other interests at the time?

当时还有其他兴趣吗？

I mean, presumably you listened to music every once in a while.

我的意思是，想必您偶尔会听音乐。

I mean, I would, whatever.

我的意思是，我愿意，无论如何。

But didn't fall in love with it.

但并没有爱上它。

Didn't feel the need to pursue anything else, learn an instrument, do anything else.

觉得没有必要追求其他任何事情，学习乐器，做任何其他事情。

It was that narrow beam.

就是那根窄光束。

You met your wife in 96?

你96年认识你老婆的？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Sophomore year at the Naval Academy, yeah.

海军学院二年级，是的。

And was she as driven?

她也有同样的动力吗？

Is she as driven?

她也有同样的动力吗？

I mean, she's obviously a very talented swimmer, presumably works hard as well.

我的意思是，她显然是一位非常有天赋的游泳运动员，想必也很努力。

It's kind of interesting.

这有点有趣。

I didn't realize until a few years ago that the both of you were, you know, military.

直到几年前我才意识到你们俩都是军人。

Yeah, she definitely just different, different driven, way smarter, way more.

是的，她确实与众不同，有不同的动力，更聪明，更聪明。

You know, it's obviously not one-to-one for men and women, but way more successful by...

你知道，这显然不是男性和女性一对一的，但更成功的是……

Gradient standards.

梯度标准。

She's in the Navy Hall of Fame.

她入选了海军名人堂。

She was Patriot League swimming champ.

她是爱国者联盟游泳冠军。

She was on junior national triathlon team when she was 20, I think.

我想，她 20 岁时就加入了国家青少年铁人三项队。

Really talented in every regard.

真是各方面都才华横溢。

Ninth in our class, I think.

我想我们班第九名。

First female graduate, number one female graduate, our class.

我们班第一女毕业生，第一女毕业生。

Tell me more about that.

告诉我更多相关信息。

How does that work?

这是如何运作的？

You have a I don't even know exactly how the grading first of all, her grades are The academic success is just remarkable.

你有一个我什至不知道具体的成绩，首先，她的成绩是学术上的成功是令人瞩目的。

And then you get a military grade and you get a physical grade, not for your athletics, I don't think, but it's like your PRT scores, which is your physical readiness test, all this military stuff you do.

然后你会得到一个军事成绩，你会得到一个体能成绩，我不认为是因为你的体育成绩，但这就像你的 PRT 分数，这是你的身体准备测试，你所做的所有这些军事事情。

You get this other cluster of a grade that goes along with your academic grades.

您将获得与您的学术成绩相关的另一组成绩。

And...

还有...

She was number nine in the class and the first female graduate based on that cluster of grading.

根据该评分标准，她在班上排名第九，也是第一位女毕业生。

And, I mean, she's an amazing person.

而且，我的意思是，她是一个了不起的人。

Was her success in academics and swimming, was that part of what drew you to her?

她在学业和游泳方面的成功是吸引你的部分原因吗？

No. No.

不，不。

No, she was just nice and, you know.

不，她只是很好，你知道。

I didn't really care about the achievement.

我其实并不关心这个成就。

It certainly sounds like I care about achievement because of the narrow focus, but...

这听起来确实像是我因为关注点狭窄而关心成就，但是......

It wasn't really that.

事实并非如此。

You know, she was just really normal.

你知道，她真的很正常。

In a group of a lot of abnormal people, frankly, like there's some kooks at these schools, you know, and I'm probably in that category.

坦率地说，在一群不正常的人中，就像这些学校里有一些怪人一样，你知道，我可能属于这一类。

I don't know, but everybody's just really different there.

我不知道，但那里的每个人都非常不同。

You have this athlete group.

你们有这个运动员团体。

I mean, you know, Andrew, I mean, you went to Stanford.

我的意思是，你知道，安德鲁，我的意思是，你去了斯坦福大学。

I mean, some of the...

我的意思是，有些...

You know, the group of...

你知道，这群人...

Naval Academy in West Point, like these schools who produce like the Rhodes Scholar level person, like that cluster of group, like at Navy, I remember.

西点军校的海军学院，就像这些学校培养出像罗德学者级别的人，就像那群人，就像在海军一样，我记得。

They're super impressive.

他们超级令人印象深刻。

I mean, and then there's the rest of us, like, doing our best, getting pretty good grades and stuff, but...

我的意思是，然后我们其他人，比如，尽力而为，取得很好的成绩等等，但是......

There's very different groups inside.

里面有非常不同的群体。

You know, the school.

你知道，学校。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

I looked at some of my colleagues, like a former guest on this podcast, Allie Crum.

我看着我的一些同事，比如这个播客的前嘉宾艾莉·克拉姆 (Allie Crum)。

You know, she's an incredible scientist, was a Division I gymnast.

你知道，她是一位令人难以置信的科学家，也是一名一级体操运动员。

And is a licensed clinical psychologist.

并且是一名有执照的临床心理学家。

Also maintains a healthy relationship with children in the home.

还与家里的孩子保持健康的关系。

Like, I just go, who are these people?

就像，我就走了，这些人是谁？

You know, I mean, you know, every once in a while, we talk about the person with the quote-unquote extra gear.

你知道，我的意思是，你知道，每隔一段时间，我们就会谈论拥有额外装备的人。

You know, like some people just seem to have that extra gear, and I don't want to take anything away from Allie or anyone else's incredible work ethic that goes with what people perceive as an extra gear.

你知道，就像有些人似乎只是拥有额外的装备一样，我不想从艾莉或其他任何人令人难以置信的职业道德中夺走任何东西，这种职业道德与人们认为的额外装备相一致。

Who knows if they have an extra gear or not?

谁知道他们是否有额外的装备？

I always just want to know what their parents did.

我一直只是想知道他们的父母做了什么。

Yeah.

是的。

And it turns out, Ali's parents, I hope I have this right, but recollection.

事实证明，阿里的父母，我希望我有这个权利，但回忆。

Of this is that her mother ran a theater group and her father was a martial arts teacher.

其中之一是她的母亲经营一个剧团，她的父亲是一名武术老师。

Okay.

好的。

So, you know, there's nothing that speaks to academics per se.

所以，你知道，没有什么可以与学术本身相关的。

And I find that really important to me and to highlight because I think people hearing this conversation and Hear about people like alleys and other examples like that.

我发现这对我来说非常重要并强调，因为我认为人们听到这段对话并听到像巷子这样的人以及其他类似的例子。

You think, oh, yeah, you got to come from an academic family to end up at a.

你认为，哦，是的，你必须来自一个学术家庭才能最终进入大学。

At a top tier institution or to win a Nobel Prize.

在顶级机构或获得诺贝尔奖。

In fact, there are so many exceptions to that, or you have to be a natural athlete or be born with some genetic gift or some extra gear, as it were, in order to succeed.

事实上，有很多例外，或者你必须是一名天生的运动员，或者天生具有某种遗传天赋或一些额外的装备，才能取得成功。

But I think so much of success is the thing that you seem to operationalize really quickly, which is.

但我认为，成功很大程度上是因为你似乎能够很快地付诸实践，事实确实如此。

Really focus on that 24-hour horizon and where one has seen failure to just keep going.

真正关注 24 小时的视野以及人们看到无法继续前进的地方。

I mean, a big part of it is just to keep going, but also to make sure that you're continuing to go.

我的意思是，其中很大一部分就是继续前进，但也要确保你继续前进。

In a direction that is adaptive and functional.

朝着适应性和功能性的方向发展。

Because imagine had you not found wrestling and you had gotten into some group where the metrics of success were around dealing weed or doing something which back then was highly illegal, now is varying levels of legality, but where the points came back for effort in domains of life that could take you down into the gutter.

因为想象一下，如果你没有发现摔跤，而你加入了某个团体，其中成功的衡量标准是交易大麻或做一些在当时是高度非法的事情，现在是不同程度的合法性，但在生活领域的努力可能会把你带入阴沟。

And you see this.

你看到了这一点。

So I'm convinced that- The work ethic is the fundamental piece, but there has to be that rudder.

所以我坚信——职业道德是基本要素，但必须有那个舵。

And the rudder has to be pointed in the right direction.

方向舵必须指向正确的方向。

So along those lines, you meet Bridget.

沿着这些线索，你遇到了布里奇特。

Yeah.

是的。

And was it instantaneous?

它是瞬时的吗？

No, we kind of had a friendship first.

不，我们首先有友谊。

I felt like at least we've discussed this.

我觉得至少我们已经讨论过这个问题了。

I mean, I instantaneously enjoyed her company.

我的意思是，我立刻就喜欢上了她的陪伴。

So I met Bridget in February of sophomore year.

所以我在大二的二月认识了布里奇特。

I was on the campus of Naval Academy, it's called The Yard.

我当时在海军学院的校园里，它的名字叫“The Yard”。

I was on The Yard all winter because the wrestling season is the shittiest time ever, right?

我整个冬天都在 The Yard，因为摔跤季节是有史以来最糟糕的时候，对吧？

It crosses over the holidays, you have to make weight during Thanksgiving, you have to make weight during Christmas.

跨越假期，感恩节你要减肥，圣诞节你要减肥。

We were on campus, on the yard.

我们在校园里，在院子里。

And it was easily waist-deep snow, and we were doing two-a-day practices.

雪很容易就齐腰深了，我们每天进行两次训练。

Everybody else was home on vacation.

其他人都在家度假。

That winter, I considered leaving, and thank goodness for no cell phones and stuff, because I didn't know how to leave.

那年冬天，我考虑离开，谢天谢地没有手机之类的东西，因为我不知道如何离开。

It was like...

就像...

You consider leaving, like, leaving the Naval Academy?

你考虑离开，比如离开海军学院？

Leaving the Naval I was just...

离开海军我只是...

But it didn't have anything to do with the Naval Academy, really.

但这确实与海军学院没有任何关系。

It had everything to do with that moment.

这一切都与那一刻有关。

I was miserable.

我很痛苦。

Like, I was making...

就像，我正在做...

I wrestled 190 my freshman year and Doug graduated.

我大一那年摔跤了 190 场，道格毕业了。

He was the 177 pounder.

他是177磅重的人。

So sophomore year, I dropped into his spot.

大二那年，我跌入了他的位置。

I went down to 177.

我降到了177。

Fighting weight for me is like 193.

对我来说，对抗体重就像193。

But, you know, back then, Andrew, I'm lifting a lot.

但是，你知道，安德鲁，那时候我举重很多。

I was 210 to 215 in the offseason, and I cut to 177 sophomore year.

休赛期我的成绩是210到215，大二的时候我降到了177。

And I was just generally miserable.

我一般都很痛苦。

If it was easy to leave, I probably would have.

如果离开很容易的话，我可能会离开。

And then I met Bridget in February and I was like, fuck it, I'll stay.

然后我在二月份遇到了布里奇特，我当时想，去他的，我会留下来。

She's better than this place.

她比这个地方更好。

Having followed my high school girlfriend off to college and not gone to college when I got there, I just lived in the parking lot outside her dorm where I can relate.

我跟随我的高中女友上大学，但到了那里后并没有上大学，我只是住在她宿舍外的停车场，在那里我可以产生共鸣。

You know, there's a I probably wouldn't be sitting here today were it not for.

你知道，如果不是因为，我今天可能不会坐在这里。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Plunge.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Plunge。

Plunge makes what I believe is the best self-cooling cold water plunge.

我认为 Plunge 是最好的自冷冷水跳水器。

Over the last decade, and especially in the last five years, there's been an increasing amount of excitement about cold water plunging for sake of mental health, physical health, and performance.

在过去的十年里，尤其是在过去的五年里，人们越来越热衷于为了心理健康、身体健康和表现而进行冷水潜水。

And that's in large part because one of the most robust effects of cold water exposure are big increases in adrenaline, also called epinephrine, and dopamine.

这在很大程度上是因为接触冷水最强烈的影响之一是肾上腺素（也称为肾上腺素）和多巴胺的大量增加。

So while some people do cold water plunging in pursuit of increasing metabolism or reducing inflammation, It's really those big increases in adrenaline and dopamine that lead to those long-lasting increases in alertness and feelings of well-being, not just in the seconds or minutes after the cold plunge, but indeed for several hours afterwards.

因此，虽然有些人为了提高新陈代谢或减少炎症而进行冷水浴，但实际上，肾上腺素和多巴胺的大量增加导致了警觉性和幸福感的持久增加，不仅是在冷水浴后的几秒钟或几分钟内，而且确实是在冷水浴后的几个小时内。

I've been using a plunge for several years now, typically first thing in the morning or after cardiovascular training.

我已经使用跳水好几年了，通常是在早上或心血管训练后做的第一件事。

I do agree that doing cold water plunging after a workout designed to generate hypertrophy or strength gains is not a good idea, but doing cold plunging at the other times of day can be tremendously beneficial.

我确实同意，在旨在产生肌肉肥大或力量增益的锻炼之后进行冷水潜水并不是一个好主意，但在一天中的其他时间进行冷水潜水可能会非常有益。

I use the version of Plunge called the All-In Ice Bath, and Plunge now also makes saunas that get up to 230 degrees Fahrenheit.

我使用称为 All-In Ice Bath 的 Plunge 版本，Plunge 现在还可以制作温度高达 230 华氏度的桑拿房。

I love how the Plunge Ice Bath and sauna can both be controlled from an app on my phone so that if I'm headed home, I can turn on the sauna and it'll be hot when I arrive.

我喜欢 Plunge Ice Bath 和桑拿房都可以通过手机上的应用程序进行控制，这样，如果我回家，我可以打开桑拿房，当我到达时，桑拿房就会很热。

So if you would like to try a Plunge Ice Bath or sauna, you can go to plunge.com slash Huberman to get $150 off either product.

因此，如果您想尝试 Plunge Ice Bath 或桑拿，您可以访问plunge.comlash Huberman，任一产品均可享受 150 美元优惠。

Again, that's plunge.com slash Huberman.

再说一次，这是plum.com 斜线Huberman。

So at what point did you decide you wanted to...

那么你什么时候决定要...

Aim for the SEAL teams?

瞄准海豹突击队？

It's a great question.

这是一个很好的问题。

I mean, things, you know, as compared to...

我的意思是，你知道，与...相比

I had a gunnery sergeant in the Marine Corps at...

我在海军陆战队有一位炮兵中士...

Prep school, who I thought, these are back to the first people you meet in this environment, Gunny Flynn.

预科学校，我想，这些都是你在这个环境中遇到的第一个人，Gunny Flynn。

And he was great.

他很棒。

Like he was super hard on us, but I obviously kind of loved that.

好像他对我们非常严厉，但我显然很喜欢这样。

And I thought I was going to go into the Marine Corps and Doug wanted to go into the Marine Corps.

我以为我会加入海军陆战队，而道格也想加入海军陆战队。

I'm a freshman at the Naval Academy.

我是海军学院的新生。

He's my wrestling partner.

他是我的摔跤伙伴。

Doug could literally tell me to jump off of a building.

道格可以直接告诉我从建筑物上跳下去。

As long as he came with me, I'd do it.

只要他陪着我，我就这么做。

No problem.

没问题。

And enjoy it all the way down.

并一路享受它。

Doug was going into the Marine Corps.

道格要加入海军陆战队。

I thought I was going to go into the Marine Corps.

我以为我要加入海军陆战队。

And I did a summer training in Quantico between freshman and sophomore year.

我在大一和大二之间在匡蒂科进行了暑期训练。

And it was okay.

没关系。

It was good, but I didn't love it.

这很好，但我不喜欢它。

And...

还有...

I met a couple other guys who were going to compete for spots in the SEAL teams who were years ahead of me, but to answer your question, junior year...

我遇到了另外几个人，他们将竞争海豹突击队的位置，他们比我领先好几年，但要回答你的问题，大三……

You get, you can sign up and say, I want to start competing for a billet.

你可以报名并说，我想开始竞争一个住所。

We had 16 spots in my class.

我们班有 16 个名额。

I think there's 32 spots these days.

我想现在有32个名额。

You know, the force has grown since 9-11, obviously, and...

你知道，自 9-11 事件以来，这股力量显然有所增强，而且……

And I want to say maybe 150 or so people, they put you through.

我想说，大概有 150 个人左右，他们给你接通了电话。

This weekend, overnight, two-day, hell two-day things at Navy.

这个周末，在海军度过了通宵、两天、地狱般的两天。

Some people quit.

有些人放弃了。

I don't know how many go to what we used to call mini buds in the summer.

我不知道有多少人在夏天去吃我们过去所说的迷你花蕾。

Between junior and senior year, you go out to Coronado and buds instructors, they still have it.

在大三和大四之间，你去科罗纳多和芽教练那里，他们仍然有它。

It's called something different.

它被称为不同的东西。

Um...

嗯...

You spend two weeks at the BUDS compound, and they run you through a mini program.

你在 BUDS 大院待了两周，他们会引导你完成一个小程序。

Sorry, BUDS, some folks listening to this won't know the acronym.

抱歉，老兄，有些听这个的人不知道缩写词。

The acronym is Basic Underwater Demolition SEAL School.

缩写是基本水下拆除海豹突击队学校。

That's our school in Coronado.

那是我们在科罗纳多的学校。

It's a screening process for who gets in, who doesn't.

这是一个筛选过程，筛选谁可以进入，谁不能进入。

Yeah, and when you're at the Naval Academy, it's obviously different than guys coming into the enlisted ranks.

是的，当你在海军学院时，这与入伍的人明显不同。

You have this pool of people, 150-ish guys say they want to go.

有一大批人，大约有 150 名左右的人说他们想去。

Sometime junior year, they run you through this weekend pretty hard at Navy.

大三的时候，海军的这个周末他们会让你非常努力地度过。

Because we have SEALs stationed at the Naval Academy.

因为我们有海豹突击队驻扎在海军学院。

And then I'm just going to guess that goes from 150 to 80.

然后我就猜测从 150 到 80。

Maybe 80 guys go.

也许有80个人去。

To the summer program in Coronado when you're still, you know, a midshipman at the Naval Academy.

当你还是海军学院的见习官时，就去科罗纳多参加暑期课程。

I've never, maybe people have quit minibuds, I don't know.

我从来没有，也许人们已经放弃了迷你耳机，我不知道。

But I don't know if I really saw anybody quit the two weeks we were out in Coronado.

但我不知道我们在科罗纳多的两周里是否真的看到有人退出。

And then you get, you know, greeted on your performance and stuff.

然后，你知道，你的表现和其他东西都会受到欢迎。

And then you come back for senior year and you go through a series of interviews with a bunch of SEALs who come out and do interviews and you don't really know what you're doing.

然后你回到高年级，你经历了一系列与一群海豹突击队队员的面试，他们出来接受采访，但你并不真正知道自己在做什么。

And then they select down, I don't want to again overdo it, but it's probably seven, I don't know, maybe 50 or 60 qualified guys, they select you down to 16.

然后他们选择下来，我不想再次做过头，但可能是七个，我不知道，也许是 50 或 60 名合格的人，他们选择你到 16。

And so to answer your question about when I got interested was when I knew I didn't want to go in the Marine Corps, I never, ever had the Top Gun fever thing.

所以回答你关于我什么时候感兴趣的问题是当我知道我不想加入海军陆战队时，我从来没有热衷于《壮志凌云》。

I wasn't interested in flying.

我对飞行不感兴趣。

I just wasn't interested in anything else but something super physical.

我只是对其他任何事情都不感兴趣，除了一些超级身体的东西。

And that seemed like the best, the next best thing.

这似乎是最好的、仅次于最好的事情。

And because I grew up in New Orleans and spent a lot of time in the water, that wasn't intimidating.

因为我在新奥尔良长大并在水中度过了很多时间，所以这并不令人生畏。

That screens a lot of people out, obviously.

显然，这将很多人排除在外。

Yeah, and got selected in the group of 16.

是的，并且入选了16人小组。

Was at Bud's after graduation, you know, a couple months after graduation.

毕业后在巴德那里，你知道，毕业几个月后。

There's been a lot put...

已经放了很多了...

Out into the world around buds you know people have seen the log carrying the boat carrying and the screaming and the set said screaming the the instructors and the and the running and the you know, clasped arms in the water and hell week, no sleep, and on and on.

你知道，在花蕾周围的世界里，人们看到了运着木头的船、尖叫着、布景说尖叫着的教练、奔跑着的、你知道的、在水中紧握双臂、地狱般的一周、没有睡觉，等等。

It's obviously tough.

显然这很难。

It culls 85% of the people that go out there thinking that they are the absolute last person who would ever quit, ring the bell, so to speak.

它淘汰了 85% 的人，他们认为自己是绝对不会放弃的人，可以这么说。

You obviously got through.

显然你已经通过了。

A while back, you mentioned to me three things that you think predict whether or not somebody's going to get through buds.

不久前，您向我提到了三件事，您认为这三件事可以预测某人是否会度过花蕾。

And before you tell us what these are, I just will just tell people that, yes, of course, you made it through buds successfully and went into the teams.

在你告诉我们这些是什么之前，我只想告诉人们，是的，当然，你成功地通过了花蕾并进入了团队。

Very successful career in the teams, but you've also been a buds instructor.

在团队中你的职业生涯非常成功，但你也曾担任过芽教练。

So you've been on the, on the, On the other side of the equation too, what are those three things?

所以你也一直在等式的另一边，这三件事是什么？

Yeah, this was, as you know, this was very anecdotal, but it lined up.

是的，正如你所知，这是非常轶事，但它是一致的。

When I was back there in 05 as an instructor, I feel like we're not scientists, right?

当我05年回到那里当讲师时，我感觉我们不是科学家，对吗？

But I feel like we tried.

但我觉得我们已经尽力了。

Every correlating data pull that we could pull from pull-ups to run times to you name it, to regions of the country that people grow up near water.

我们可以提取的每一个相关数据，从引体向上到跑步时间（你能想到的），到人们在水边长大的国家地区。

At least back then, nothing correlated.

至少在当时，没有任何关联。

And so I was a first phase OIC, officer in charge.

所以我是第一阶段伊斯兰会议组织的负责人。

And so our team in first phase, we can talk about what that is in detail if you want to, but first phase is in charge of hell week, you know, hell weeks in the first two months of training.

所以我们的团队在第一阶段，如果你愿意的话，我们可以详细讨论这是什么，但第一阶段负责地狱周，你知道，训练前两个月的地狱周。

And a couple of the guys said, all this bullshit about this can get you through, that can get you through.

有几个人说，所有这些关于这件事的废话都可以让你度过难关，可以让你度过难关。

I bet.

我敢打赌。

That every single person we talk to out here on the grinder has one of these three things.

我们在研磨机上交谈过的每个人都拥有这三件事之一。

They were a varsity athlete in high school or college, their parents are divorced, or they got suspended from school.

他们是高中或大学的校队运动员，父母离婚，或者被学校停学。

I guarantee it.

我保证。

And we would walk around the grinder and ask.

我们会绕着研磨机走一圈并询问。

And I mean...

我的意思是...

You know, this isn't going to pass an independent review board, but it's got to be 90 to 95%.

你知道，这不会通过独立审查委员会，但必须达到 90% 到 95%。

So that's incredible because, you know, so much has been made of Bud's and Hell Week.

所以这是令人难以置信的，因为，你知道，巴德和地狱周已经做了很多事情。

And just to just fill in a few of the blanks for those that aren't familiar, Hell Week is what it's five nights, no sleep.

对于那些不熟悉的人来说，只是为了填补一些空白，地狱周就是五个晚上，不睡觉。

You get an hour or a couple minutes on one day, but you're basically in constant movement for about a week.

一天你可以活动一小时或几分钟，但基本上一周左右你都在持续运动。

You are.

你是。

And that's when most people...

而这个时候，大多数人...

Voluntarily ring the bell.

主动按响门铃。

And most of them do it before Wednesday.

他们中的大多数人在周三之前就这样做了。

And I know it's got chaotic components, guns going off, blasts.

我知道它有混乱的成分，枪响，爆炸。

It's got hard work, boring components, people trying to make it through who have no sense of how long the run is going to last or what's going to happen.

它有艰苦的工作、无聊的部分，人们试图通过但不知道跑步会持续多久或会发生什么。

And you hear all this stuff like, okay, you just don't quit or you just go meal to meal.

你会听到这样的话，好吧，你只是不放弃，或者你只是一顿一顿地吃。

But what you just described is really interesting.

但你刚才所描述的确实很有趣。

Let's break those three things down because playing a varsity sport, has certain elements.

让我们把这三件事分解一下，因为参加大学运动有某些要素。

Having divorced parents has certain elements, and getting suspended in school has certain elements.

父母离婚有一定的因素，停学也有一定的因素。

Let's start with...

让我们从...开始

Divorced parents first.

先是父母离婚。

Because varsity sport, I think we can probably just quickly say, okay, there's structure.

因为校队运动，我想我们可以很快说，好吧，有结构。

You have to listen to somebody.

你必须听某人的。

You have to be able to push yourself.

你必须能够推动自己。

You have to have some level of physical competence.

你必须有一定程度的身体能力。

Coachable.

可教练。

Coachable, mental competence, work with others.

善于指导，心理能力强，与他人合作。

So there's something there, right?

所以那里有东西，对吗？

And you presumably have to go through junior varsity to get there.

你可能必须通过初级校队才能到达那里。

So there's some oomph and required in any event.

所以无论如何，都有一些魅力和必要。

But the divorced parents piece was surprising to me, still is.

但离婚父母的文章让我感到惊讶，现在仍然如此。

What?

什么？

You have divorced parents.

你有离异的父母。

So do I.

我也一样。

Divorces occur for any number of different reasons.

离婚有多种不同的原因。

What in the world do you think is the...

你认为世界上到底有什么...

The consequence of or that of a divorced household that would predict so well, at least in this back of the envelope measurement that you made, but as an instructor that people would get through this excruciatingly difficult period of time.

离婚家庭的后果可以很好地预测，至少在你所做的粗略测量中，但作为一名教师，人们将度过这段极其困难的时期。

For me, it was one thing specifically.

对我来说，这是一件事。

I felt like I was alone.

我感觉我很孤独。

If I didn't have the team.

如果我没有团队的话。

So I don't know what it would be for other people, but I was like, if I don't have this team.

所以我不知道对其他人来说会怎样，但我想，如果我没有这个团队。

Then what team do I have?

那我有什么队伍呢？

So, I'm not leaving.

所以，我不会离开。

You could crank up the cold and misery as high as you fucking want.

你可以随心所欲地把寒冷和痛苦调高。

But I'm not leaving.

但我不会离开。

Yeah, that hits deep.

是的，这触动很深。

I didn't do buds.

我没有做芽。

I didn't even know what the SEAL teams were, but I certainly know the feeling of looking outside of the household for a sense of family and belonging and the feeling that like I'd much rather, like almost from a place of joy, like I'd much rather die for these people, hopefully not with these people, but much rather die trying to save others and to do well in that.

我什至不知道海豹突击队是什么，但我当然知道在家庭之外寻找家庭感和归属感的感觉，以及那种感觉，就像我更愿意，几乎从一个快乐的地方，就像我更愿意为这些人而死，希望不是和这些人一起，但更愿意为拯救他人而死，并在这方面做得很好。

Than to quit.

还不如放弃呢。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

That's a powerful thing that you just shine light on.

这是一个强大的东西，你只需照亮它即可。

I don't think...

我不认为...

Of the hundreds of interviews with team guys, X team guys, buds, instructors, et cetera, that are out there.

在对团队成员、X 团队成员、伙伴、教练等的数百个采访中，这些都是在那里。

I don't think anyone's ever highlighted that.

我认为没有人强调过这一点。

I don't think I was aware of it then Andrew, but I just, you know, again, it's in, it's in retrospect.

我想我当时并没有意识到这一点，安德鲁，但我只是，你知道，再一次，它是在，它是在回顾中。

Well, the retrospect is in large part what we're here for.

嗯，回顾在很大程度上就是我们来这里的目的。

To go a little deeper on that, I think that A lot of people have challenging homes.

更深入地说，我认为很多人的家都充满挑战。

Their parents aren't necessarily divorced.

他们的父母不一定离婚。

Talking, of course, about...

当然，谈论的是...

Trying to understand the human spirit.

试图了解人类的精神。

Certainly not accomplishments per se, but the human spirit.

当然不是成就本身，而是人类精神。

So I think that a lot of people, especially nowadays, they look to their home life and if, you know, God willing, they had a great home life.

所以我认为很多人，尤其是现在的人，他们都会关注自己的家庭生活，如果上帝愿意的话，他们会有一个美好的家庭生活。

That is the base.

这就是基础。

It's like the touchstone for them that they can return to.

这就像他们可以回归的试金石。

But for a lot of people...

但对于很多人来说...

Even people who go home for the holidays or who touch in with their parents.

即使是那些回家过节或与父母联系的人。

Whether or not they're divorced or not, they don't feel like that family unit is really a solid thing.

无论他们是否离婚，他们都不觉得家庭单位是一个真正稳固的东西。

Maybe they're in a place, I see this a lot, where they're the parent.

也许他们在一个地方，我经常看到这样的情况，他们是父母。

They had to grow up taking care of the parents.

他们必须在父母的照顾下长大。

I see that a lot on both the male side and the female side.

我在男性和女性方面都看到很多这样的情况。

I see that.

我明白了。

So...

所以...

You're saying that...

你是说...

One strong predictor of getting through is a feeling of people want essentially making it there like almost like.

成功通过的一个强有力的预测因素是人们希望基本上能够像几乎一样那样到达那里。

Biological identity to get through.

生物身份要打通。

It was certainly the case for me.

对我来说确实如此。

I mean, when I got, again, I don't really like to overdo these things because it tends to feed the mythos a little.

我的意思是，当我再次意识到时，我真的不喜欢做这些事情，因为这往往会助长一些神话。

But when I got to Bud's, Andrew, like, when I got to the Naval Academy, I had a very strong sense of this is my chance.

但当我进入巴德安德鲁学院时，就像当我进入海军学院时，我有一种非常强烈的感觉，这是我的机会。

And you know, you develop over the years and you spend time thinking about this and having mentors.

你知道，你多年来一直在进步，你花时间思考这个问题并聘请导师。

When I got there.

当我到达那里时。

That was very much my first time of You better bring the nastiest shit on the planet.

那是我第一次看到你最好带来这个星球上最肮脏的狗屎。

Because I'm not leaving here.

因为我不会离开这里。

Like, it's just not, I'm not, I'm just not going, you know?

就像，这不是，我不是，我只是不去，你知道吗？

And there's a Navy bit to it too.

而且也有海军的味道。

Like, I didn't want to do anything else in the Navy.

就像，我不想在海军做任何其他事情。

So back to fear.

所以回到恐惧。

I was afraid I would get stuck.

我担心我会被卡住。

Doing a job I didn't like.

做着一份我不喜欢的工作。

But there's some, people are not wrong, you know, about buds.

但人们对花蕾的看法并没有错。

There's some very difficult days where...

有一些非常困难的日子，...

You do start to wonder, like, is this really worth it?

你确实开始怀疑，这真的值得吗？

And I...

而我...

That I never once I thought about quitting.

我从来没有想过放弃。

It never crossed my mind because I just had these other things that I really had to do for myself and my life or else I felt like I was going to have nothing.

我从来没有想过这个问题，因为我只有一些其他的事情是我必须为自己和我的生活做的，否则我觉得我将一无所有。

And so...

所以...

Again, I don't think operating out of fear is particularly adaptive.

再说一次，我认为出于恐惧而行动并不是特别具有适应性。

But sometimes it, you know, the bit in your teeth is useful.

但有时，你知道，牙齿上的钻头是有用的。

Yeah, certainly in my own life I could say, you know, getting real scared about Being 19 and essentially realizing I'm not good at anything.

是的，当然，在我自己的生活中，我可以说，你知道，我对 19 岁感到非常害怕，并且基本上意识到我不擅长任何事情。

I'm not good at anything.

我什么都不擅长。

And I was terrible at a lot of things.

我在很多事情上都很糟糕。

And some of those things were taking me down a dangerous path that that was the fear.

其中一些事情让我走上了一条危险的道路，那就是恐惧。

I'm grateful for the fear piece.

我很感激恐惧片。

It, it would, it, it scruffed me.

它，它会，它，它把我扭伤了。

And, Let's talk about the suspended in school.

而且，我们来谈谈停学的事情。

Yep.

是的。

First of all, that implies getting caught.

首先，这意味着被抓住。

Yes.

是的。

Not just misbehaving, but getting caught.

不仅行为不当，还被抓。

What do you think that's about?

你认为这是关于什么的？

So we're really talking about a sense of rebellion against authority or the system that one finds themselves in.

所以我们真正谈论的是一种对权威或一个人所处的体系的反抗感。

Which is super important for our line of work.

这对于我们的工作来说非常重要。

Like for me, again, I can only speak for myself.

就像我一样，我只能为自己说话。

For me, it was the wild fuck you factor.

对我来说，这就是你的疯狂他妈的因素。

Like, you have to...

就像，你必须...

There's just a nasty reality of the work we had to do.

我们必须做的工作是一个令人讨厌的现实。

You know, I was in from 98 until 2011.

你知道，我从 98 年一直呆到 2011 年。

In the SEAL teams.

在海豹突击队中。

In the SEAL teams from 98 until 2011.

从98年到2011年在海豹突击队服役。

Everybody knows what was happening between 9-11 and then.

每个人都知道 9 点到 11 点之间发生了什么。

It's not that it didn't stop happening.

这并不是说它没有停止发生。

I know, you know, from my own experience, from 03 through...

我知道，你知道，根据我自己的经验，从 03 年到...

2010 was extremely intense and Obviously, the military has rules and we need rules.

2010 年非常激烈，显然，军队有规则，我们也需要规则。

And you follow the laws of armed conflict and you follow the rules of engagement.

你遵守武装冲突法和交战规则。

There's no question.

毫无疑问。

About that, ever?

关于那件事，曾经吗？

But the shit that happens to you out in the field for real does not follow any pattern.

但在野外真正发生在你身上的事情并不遵循任何模式。

And so...

所以...

If you are a complete, you know, non-suspended from school rule follower, I'm not saying you won't be successful.

如果你是一个完整的、你知道的、没有被停学的校规遵守者，我并不是说你不会成功。

I'm sure plenty of people are.

我相信很多人都是这样的。

But in our line of work, if you ask people, most of them had a weird streak as they were coming up.

但在我们的工作中，如果你问人们，他们中的大多数人在晋升时都有一种奇怪的倾向。

Like they have a little bit of a...

就像他们有一点点...

A side eye when somebody tells them this is how stuff is like, maybe it's like that But you don't know that and Where it really became clear for me, Andrew, was...

当有人告诉他们事情就是这样的，也许就像那样但你不知道这一点时，安德鲁，我真正明白的是……

Look, at every stage in your development, you're still looking for what right looks like.

看，在你发展的每个阶段，你仍然在寻找正确的东西。

And when I was a, I'm now a Naval Academy graduate, not that that means anything special, but I'm smart enough.

当我还是一名海军学院毕业生时，我现在是一名海军学院毕业生，这并不意味着什么特别的，但我足够聪明。

I'm now in my 20s.

我现在20多岁了。

I'm at Bud's and I have this recollection later, like people are always telling stories about the teams.

我在巴德那里，后来我才想起，就像人们总是在讲述关于球队的故事一样。

And when you're a new student at Bud's, you kind of believe everything the instructors tell you because it's pretty impressive shit.

当你是巴德学校的新生时，你会相信老师告诉你的一切，因为那真是令人印象深刻。

And then you find out later when I checked into SEAL Team 3, you actually start to understand the arc of the job.

后来你会发现，当我加入海豹突击队第三队时，你实际上开始了解这份工作的脉络。

It was like all these guys were telling training stories.

就像所有这些人都在讲述训练故事一样。

Those weren't real combat stories.

这些都不是真实的战斗故事。

They never said...

他们从来没有说过...

That that was a story from training.

那是训练中的故事。

And so my point is like...

所以我的观点是......

What you hope guys are getting it now, but what we didn't get a lot of was the real story in a sense, meaning.

你希望大家现在能明白，但我们没有得到很多的是某种意义上的真实故事。

I will say definitively, my first combat deployment was 03 when we invaded Iraq.

我可以肯定地说，我的第一次战斗部署是03年我们入侵伊拉克时。

I was a platoon commander when we invaded Iraq.

我们入侵伊拉克时我是一名排长。

And I remember within a week of being in that situation thinking not one single instructor had the experience to mentor and coach me on this, not one.

我记得在遇到这种情况的一周内，我认为没有一个教练有经验在这方面指导和指导我，没有一个。

And so.

所以。

You have to go back to that wild, suspended...

你必须回到那个狂野、悬浮的状态……

Fuck you factor mindset.

去你妈的因素心态。

Like all your silly rules about how the military works.

就像你们关于军队如何运作的所有愚蠢规则一样。

None of that shit's happening out here.

这里什么狗屎都不会发生。

Like, all this other stuff is happening that doesn't have anything to do with your training manuals.

就像，所有其他正在发生的事情与您的培训手册没有任何关系。

Except for...

除了...

The things you don't violate, which is to your best of your ability, stuff happens, but the rules of engagement and laws of armed conflict, everything else is a toss-up.

你不违反的事情，这是你尽你最大的能力，事情会发生，但交战规则和武装冲突法，其他一切都是难以预测的。

The tactics aren't.

战术则不然。

That's not a toss up, but you know what I mean, like the environment is completely chaotic.

这不是折腾，但你知道我的意思，就像环境完全混乱一样。

It's a new sport.

这是一项新运动。

It's a brand new sport that no one coached you on.

这是一项全新的运动，没有人指导过你。

And it's high risk, high consequence.

而且风险高，后果高。

For you and your teammates, but also for the other side.

为了你和你的队友，也为了对方。

I mean, every...

我的意思是，每...

15 seconds is a new consequential decision.

15秒是一个新的重要决定。

Yeah, because you obviously don't want to kill civilians on the other side either.

是的，因为你显然也不想杀死另一边的平民。

Of course not.

当然不是。

So you obviously get through Bud's.

所以你显然已经通过了巴德的。

You probably weren't surprised given your mindset.

考虑到你的心态，你可能并不感到惊讶。

You probably weren't surprised.

你可能并不感到惊讶。

No, I wasn't surprised.

不，我并不感到惊讶。

At this point, I'm maybe building a little self-confidence and just operate out of fear.

在这一点上，我可能正在建立一点自信，只是出于恐惧而行动。

But happy, presumably.

但大概是高兴吧。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Yep.

是的。

And...

还有...

What's...

什么是...

I feel obligated to ask.

我觉得有义务问一下。

Well, I'm just curious to ask that you, you know, you've been in a system of military for a long time.

好吧，我只是好奇地想问一下，你知道，你已经在军事系统中呆了很长时间了。

Is there a bigger, pole of patriotism there or that's just, it's there, but I mean, are you thinking about country or are you thinking about team?

是否有更大的爱国主义支柱，或者只是，它就在那里，但我的意思是，你在考虑国家还是在考虑团队？

You think about the day?

你想那一天吗？

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, at this point, you know, I'm fully indoctrinated in a sense, you know, the Naval Academy really does give you a sense of, again, bigness and you meet people from home.

我的意思是，在这一点上，你知道，我在某种意义上完全被灌输了，你知道，海军学院确实再次给你一种伟大的感觉，你会遇到来自家乡的人。

World War II in Vietnam and You know...

第二次世界大战在越南，你知道......

An amazing guy, which we can cover later.

一个了不起的人，我们稍后会介绍。

I wasn't around when he was coming up, but Colonel John Ripley is a guy who won the Navy Cross in Vietnam.

他来的时候我不在场，但约翰·里普利上校在越南赢得了海军十字勋章。

The book, The Bridge at Dong Ha, is about him.

《东河桥》这本书就是关于他的。

He knew my, this is back to my Uncle Jim who introduced, he and my Uncle Jim were buddies.

他认识我，这是回我的吉姆叔叔介绍的，他和我的吉姆叔叔是哥们儿。

And I met him.

我遇见了他。

He's since passed away.

他已经去世了。

I met Colonel Ripley.

我遇见了里普利上校。

When I was a plebe at the Naval Academy, I worked with one of his sons now, friend, teammate, mentor.

当我还是海军学院的一名平民时，我现在和他的一个儿子一起工作，我是朋友、队友、导师。

He was a great guy.

他是一个很棒的人。

Colonel Ripley.

里普利上校。

He's a legend.

他是一个传奇。

Like, this guy's a Navy cross winner, should have won the Congressional Medal of Honor by all accounts.

就像，这家伙是海军十字勋章获得者，从各方面来看都应该赢得国会荣誉勋章。

If you read the book, the Bridget Dong Hai, you are going to have...

如果你读过《布里奇特·东海》这本书，你将会……

No ability to understand why he's not dead.

无法理解他为什么没有死。

And these are the kind of people you meet.

这些就是你遇到的人。

So back to the patriotism, you know, thing.

回到爱国主义，你知道的。

By the time I was in the teams, I knew where I was sort of in this ecosystem.

当我加入团队时，我知道自己在这个生态系统中处于什么位置。

Admittedly though, what I didn't really have, Andrew, because it I mean, I love the country, of course, but it wasn't.

但不可否认的是，我并没有真正拥有什么，安德鲁，因为我的意思是，我当然爱这个国家，但事实并非如此。

Again, I didn't grow up with a dad who was like, you know, this was always in our house or...

再说一遍，我成长过程中的父亲并不是这样的，你知道，这总是在我们家里，或者……

It just wasn't that big of a thing.

这只是没什么大不了的事。

This came for me after 9-11, obviously.

显然，这是9·11之后我的事。

But yes, the patriotism and the importance of the job is there.

但是，是的，爱国主义和工作的重要性是存在的。

But when I remember checking the SEAL Team 3, what...

但当我记得检查海豹突击队第三队时，什么……

Would emerge very quickly for me because we had Vietnam vets in the training cell at SEAL Team 3 and just some amazing people.

对我来说很快就会出现，因为我们海豹突击队第三队的训练室里有越战老兵，还有一些了不起的人。

What I realized right away was, okay, playtime is completely over.

我立刻意识到，好吧，游戏时间完全结束了。

And that was very useful, like early lesson.

这非常有用，就像早期课程一样。

Not that anyone was fucking around in buds, like, you know, it's serious.

并不是说有人在萌芽状态下乱搞，就像，你知道，这很严重。

But you meet a guy like Master Chief Martin, who's got 100 combat missions from Vietnam.

但你会遇到像马丁士官长这样的人，他从越南执行了 100 次战斗任务。

He's about to retire.

他即将退休。

He was like the third person I met when I checked into the team.

他就像是我加入球队时遇到的第三个人。

And you suddenly are like a kid again where...

然后你突然又像个孩子了……

There's just no fucking around.

周围没有他妈的。

So you're in the teams.

所以你在团队中。

Presumably liking the work.

大概是喜欢这份工作吧。

Loved it.

喜欢它。

Loving the team component.

热爱团队的组成部分。

It's hard.

这很难。

It's unpredictable.

这是不可预测的。

And that's part of the...

这是...的一部分

The fun.

乐趣。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

Yeah, the job's amazing.

是的，这份工作太棒了。

You do a number of different deployments.

您执行许多不同的部署。

And at some point, you get called to try out for the Tier 1 division within the SEAL teams.

在某些时候，你会被要求参加海豹突击队一级部门的试训。

Maybe just explain a little bit of what Tier 1 means.

也许只是解释一下第一层的含义。

And, you know, we don't want to speak in code here, but we just got to inform people that there are levels within the...

而且，你知道，我们不想在这里用代码说话，但我们只是要告诉人们，......

Teams and that yeah tell us what tier one is yeah well i'll just refer to a special mission unit it's probably the easiest we have a bunch of teams on the east and west coast as a lot of people know nowadays this shit was not public knowledge years ago yeah so so you've got these different units within within the seal teams yeah so you You have to raise your hand.

团队，是的，告诉我们第一层是什么，是的，我只想指一个特殊任务单位，它可能是最简单的，我们在东海岸和西海岸有一堆团队，因为很多人都知道，现在这狗屎几年前还不是公众知识是的，所以你在海豹突击队中有这些不同的单位是的，所以你必须举手。

You know, I was 10 years in, Andrew.

你知道，我已经呆了十年了，安德鲁。

I was at, I had been platoon commander during the invasion of Iraq.

我在入侵伊拉克期间担任排长。

We came to Monterey, I went to school and went back to be a budget instructor.

我们来到蒙特利，我去上学，然后回去当一名预算讲师。

It was 10 years, I felt.

我感觉已经10年了。

I think it was time to, you know, take my shot.

我想是时候，你知道，我要出手了。

It's a little risky because it's hard to make it through.

这有点冒险，因为很难通过。

You know, green team and stuff at the special mission unit, it's a nine-month.

你知道，绿色团队和特殊任务单位的人员，这是九个月的。

Advanced training program.

高级培训计划。

You're 10 years into your career.

您的职业生涯已经 10 年了。

You're not 22 anymore.

你已经不再是22岁了。

And not everyone gets called the green team.

并不是每个人都被称为绿色团队。

Not everyone can go.

不是每个人都可以去的。

You can't say, I want to go.

你不能说，我想去。

I want to try out.

我想尝试一下。

You can say you want to try out and you do a pre-screener.

您可以说您想尝试一下，然后进行预筛选。

Okay.

好的。

So the command training staff, I'll call it the command for purposes of this conversation, because I'm familiar with that term for us.

因此，指挥培训人员，在本次对话中，我将其称为指挥，因为我对我们来说很熟悉这个术语。

The command training staff comes out, they put you through all this stuff.

指挥培训人员出来了，他们让你经历所有这些事情。

Some of it's psychological, some of it's physiological.

有些是心理上的，有些是生理上的。

I don't think we did a blood test, but they checked.

我不认为我们做了验血，但他们检查了。

The trainers checked everything on me.

教练检查了我身上的一切。

Which I thought...

我以为...

This is actually a description of why the unit's tier one.

这实际上是对为什么该单位是第一级的描述。

I was...

我当时...

Even in the pre-screening, it was the first time, the way I joke about it is like I really felt like I was doing what was in the brochure.

即使在预映中，这也是第一次，我开玩笑的方式就好像我真的感觉我正在做宣传册上的事情。

Like it was real varsity stuff, you know.

就像这是真正的大学的东西，你知道。

I'm presaging a later conversation that we'll get to, but at this point, had you ever sat down with a psychologist and done a therapy session?

我预示着我们稍后会进行对话，但此时此刻，您是否曾经与心理学家坐下来进行过治疗？

That was no therapy, but I sat down with a psychologist because they put us through the battery, the Neo-PIR, the Raven, stuff like that.

那不是治疗，但我和一位心理学家坐下来，因为他们让我们经历了电池、Neo-PIR、Raven 之类的东西。

They're asking you, how do you sleep at night?

他们问你，你晚上睡得怎么样？

How do you feel?

你感觉如何？

All of What do you dream about?

所有你的梦想是什么？

How much do you drink?

你喝多少？

And you say, two beers a week.

你说，每周喝两杯啤酒。

And you're lying.

而你在撒谎。

Everyone's lying.

每个人都在撒谎。

Yeah.

是的。

But now it might be two beers a week.

但现在可能每周喝两瓶啤酒。

Now it's zero.

现在为零。

Zero.

零。

Yeah.

是的。

Right.

正确的。

But yeah, so it was good screening process.

但是，是的，所以这是一个很好的筛选过程。

I was like, oh shit, these guys are not messing around.

我当时想，天啊，这些家伙可不是在胡闹。

This is exactly what I wanted to do.

这正是我想做的。

And the physical tests ramp up.

身体测试也随之增加。

And coincidentally, I worked for him later, still friends with him now.

巧合的是，我后来为他工作，现在仍然是他的朋友。

On my interview board was Britt Slabinski, who won the Congressional Medal of Honor.

我的面试板上有布里特·斯拉宾斯基（Britt Slabinski），他获得了国会荣誉勋章。

Britt was on my interview board.

布里特是我的面试委员会成员。

And he's a great guy.

他是一个很棒的人。

And so yeah, then you just wait and if you get picked up You go out, you know, to the East Coast and you're really rolling the dice because I was on the West Coast.

所以，是的，然后你就等着，如果有人接你，你就出去，你知道，去东海岸，你真的是在掷骰子，因为我在西海岸。

You move your whole family, sell your house.

你搬走你的全家，卖掉你的房子。

You may not have to sell your house, but we did.

你可能不必卖掉你的房子，但我们卖了。

And you move and you're going to do.

你行动起来，你就会这么做。

A nine-month advanced training program at the command just to get into a tactical unit, you know, which we call squadrons.

指挥部为期九个月的高级训练计划只是为了进入战术部队，你知道，我们称之为中队。

And the best way...

而最好的办法...

Tactically for me to describe the difference.

我从战术上来描述差异。

And look, my time at Team 3 was amazing.

瞧，我在 Team 3 的时光真是太棒了。

I'm not diminishing it.

我不会减少它。

But let me just use free fall, military free fall, for anybody who's, you know, even done civilian free fall.

但是，让我用自由落体，军事自由落体来形容那些，你知道，甚至做过民用自由落体的人。

It's jumping airplanes.

这是跳跃的飞机。

Jumping.

跳跃。

Yeah.

是的。

So if we go to the drop zone and we go jumping, right, FAA regulations have you jump at 12,999 feet because as soon as you go above 13,000, you have to use supplemental oxygen, which is not a huge deal, but it's a pain in the ass for the airplane to have it.

因此，如果我们到达降落区并进行跳跃，对吧，FAA 规定你必须在 12,999 英尺处跳跃，因为一旦你超过 13,000 英尺，你就必须使用补充氧气，这并不是什么大不了的事情，但对于飞机来说却是一件痛苦的事情。

And so...

所以...

99% of all your jumps, well, at any standard drop zone, your civilian jumps are going to be below 13 grand.

好吧，在任何标准降落区，你 99% 的跳跃都会低于 13 级。

For all of our jumping at SEAL Team 3 is below 13 grand.

我们海豹突击队第 3 队的所有跳跃都低于 13 盛大。

It just makes the training more efficient.

这只会让训练变得更有效率。

And you'll jump during the daytime, maybe a little night jumping.

你会在白天跳，也许晚上也会跳一点。

You'll probably have some lights for safety.

为了安全起见，你可能会准备一些灯。

And if you look out of the airplane...

如果你从飞机上往外看……

You would be able to see the orange T on the drop zone.

您将能够在拖放区看到橙色 T。

That's your standard jump profile.

这就是你的标准跳跃轮廓。

Maybe you'll jump with some weight.

也许你会用一些重量来跳跃。

You'll certainly jump with your weapon.

你肯定会带着武器跳起来。

Probably your helmet, but not all your jumps, because you're bringing guys from zero.

可能是你的头盔，但不是你所有的跳跃，因为你是从零开始的。

To be able to do tactical military free fall as a group.

能够作为一个团队进行战术军事自由落体运动。

When you go to the command, Your jumps are...

当你执行命令时，你的跳跃是......

From 25,000 feet.

从 25,000 英尺高度。

You do 30 minutes of pre-breathing on oxygen, helmet, night vision, zero lights, an attack board that has your navigation system on it, 100 pounds of gear, your weapon, your oxygen, all your shit.

你需要进行 30 分钟的预呼吸，包括氧气、头盔、夜视仪、零灯、带有导航系统的攻击板、100 磅的装备、你的武器、你的氧气，所有你的东西。

And 45 dudes piled up in a C-17.

45 个人挤在一架 C-17 里。

And you drop.

然后你就掉下来了。

Miles away from the drop zone because your over ground speed at 25,000 feet is hauling ass, you know, because of the wind.

距离降落区有几英里远，因为 25,000 英尺的地面速度正在拖着屁股，你知道，因为风。

And if you take your hands out of your gloves at 25,000 feet, it's curtains.

如果你在 25,000 英尺的高空把手从手套中拿开，那就是窗帘。

Like you're not going to be able to use your fingers because it's so cold.

就像你无法使用手指一样，因为天气太冷了。

And you jump from way away.

然后你从很远的地方跳下来。

Obviously, and all your jump is completely blacked out.

显然，你的所有跳跃都完全变黑了。

Everybody turns IR lights on, their helmets and their infrared lights, so you can see through night vision.

每个人都打开红外灯、头盔和红外灯，这样你就可以通过夜视仪看到东西。

And you got to fly that canopy multiple, multiple miles and land everybody on a drop zone.

你必须在座舱盖上飞行数英里，然后将所有人降落在降落区。

You know, that's, if you take every tactical thing we do.

你知道，如果你仔细考虑我们所做的每一件战术事情。

And Expand.

并展开。

The same way you would expand free fall that's the difference at the command which is look i was I want to own this.

就像你扩展自由落体一样，这就是命令的区别，我想拥有这个。

When I was at Team 3, because you think about this.

当我在Team 3的时候，因为你会想到这个。

I had many, many moments where I was thinking, Oh!

我有很多很多时刻在想，哦！

Fuck it man, those guys aren't that much different.

去他妈的，这些家伙并没有那么不同。

Like, we're super high end, right?

就像，我们是超级高端，对吧？

And we are.

我们是。

And then when I got there, I was like...

然后当我到达那里时，我就像...

This is another level.

这是另一个层次。

What percentage of people that go to Green Team get through?

参加绿队的人中有多少人通过了？

I think I had 65 in my class.

我想我班上有 65 人。

You don't drop that many.

你不会掉那么多。

10 guys didn't make it or something, maybe 15-ish.

有 10 个人没能成功，大概有 15 个人。

So then you were...

那么那时你...

Why do they call it Tier 1?

为什么他们称之为第一层？

No idea.

不知道。

It must have some official reason.

一定有官方原因。

Because if you go into...

因为如果你进入...

Like real documentation, Andrew, like there's...

就像真正的文档一样，安德鲁，就像……

There's echelons in, you know, this command is echelon this, this command is echelon this.

里面有梯队，你知道，这个命令是梯队这个，这个命令是梯队这个。

In the military, Congress sets end strength numbers.

在军队中，国会设定最终兵力数字。

It says, the Navy, you get...

它说，海军，你得到......

At the one time, because I took some class, the Navy had like 355,000 people, and that's the Navy's end strength.

曾经，因为我参加了一些课程，海军大约有 355,000 人，这就是海军的最终力量。

And they have to distribute those numbers across everybody in the Navy.

他们必须将这些数字分发给海军中的每个人。

I don't know why it's called tier one, but I think it has a, you know, has a reason.

我不知道为什么它被称为第一层，但我认为它有一个，你知道的，有一个原因。

So you got through.

所以你就通过了。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

You were accepted.

你被接受了。

And then you're doing very different sorts of things than you were doing previously.

然后你会做一些与之前完全不同的事情。

Very.

非常。

So my understanding is this is largely counterterrorist work.

所以我的理解是这主要是反恐工作。

So all the work in the military and SEAL teams is high risk, high consequence, but now it's...

因此，军队和海豹突击队的所有工作都是高风险、高后果的，但现在……

Special Operations, that's the name.

特别行动，就是这个名字。

Implies where things have to be worked out.

暗示事情必须解决。

You know, on a...

你知道，在一个...

On a case-by-case basis.

视具体情况而定。

It's highly unusual.

这是非常不寻常的。

It was unusual before, but now it's highly unusual circumstances.

以前这很不寻常，但现在情况就非常不寻常了。

What was it like to be there?

在那里感觉如何？

Did you like that family?

你喜欢那个家庭吗？

I loved it.

我喜欢它。

It was the best place.

这是最好的地方。

To work.

去工作。

And this is 2000.

这是2000年。

This is 06 through 2011 for me.

对我来说，这是 06 年到 2011 年。

Okay.

好的。

So it's post 9-11, through 2011.

所以现在是 9 月 11 日之后，一直到 2011 年。

Yep.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

So.

所以。

I'm sure a lot happened and most of which we can't and won't discuss.

我确信发生了很多事情，其中​​大部分我们不能也不会讨论。

And that's not what's important here.

这不是这里重要的。

But.

但。

Clearly you met and worked with some amazing individuals.

显然你遇到了一些很棒的人并与他们一起工作。

I happen to know because we've spoken before and we have some common friends in that arena that you had both the privilege of doing this work in this really important wartime, but also the unfortunate experience of...

我碰巧知道，因为我们之前谈过，而且我们在那个领域有一些共同的朋友，你既有幸在这个非常重要的战争时期从事这项工作，但也有不幸的经历……

Of being close to and working with quite a lot of people that were killed.

与很多遇难者亲近并一起工作。

Yep.

是的。

How many?

多少？

So, I mean, I don't know why I did this or why anyone does it.

所以，我的意思是，我不知道我为什么这样做，也不知道为什么有人这样做。

It's way over 40, but I try not to...

已经40多了，但我尽量不...

Over-affiliate myself with a larger group than I actually knew.

与一个比我实际了解的更大的群体过度关联。

But the people that I personally knew, Andrew, it's exactly 40.

但我个人认识的人，安德鲁，正好是 40 岁。

And we could spend probably weeks detailing how impressive each and every one of those people was in their individual cases.

我们可能会花几周的时间来详细描述每个人在各自案例中的表现如何令人印象深刻。

This is perhaps an opportunity to put a call out.

这也许是一个发出呼吁的机会。

There's a wonderful book.

有一本很棒的书。

I think an important book that isn't so well known in the array of quote unquote military and SEAL books, which is the book about Adam Brown, a fearless book.

我认为一本重要的书在众多军事和海豹突击队书籍中并不那么出名，这是一本关于亚当·布朗的书，一本无所畏惧的书。

I heard they're going to make it into a movie.

听说他们要拍成电影

But what I like about the book is actually has very little to do with the SEAL team.

但我喜欢这本书的原因实际上与海豹突击队没什么关系。

Totally.

完全。

That's the thing.

就是这样。

Is that Adam had a serious, serious problem with addiction that he masked at times and it came back to.

亚当有一个非常非常严重的毒瘾问题，他有时会掩盖它，但它又回来了。

Pull him under various times while he was in the teams.

当他在球队的时候，他多次被拉下水。

And, I know you worked with Adam and you're close.

而且，我知道你和 Adam 一起工作过，而且关系很亲密。

Yeah.

是的。

So, that's a great book for anyone that wants it a different sort of book.

所以，对于任何想要一本不同类型的书的人来说，这都是一本很棒的书。

It's really about addiction and family and his discovery of the path out of all that.

这实际上是关于毒瘾和家庭以及他发现摆脱这一切的道路。

His tenacity is incredible.

他的坚韧令人难以置信。

It was an awesome, awesome book at human, about an awesome, awesome human.

这是一本关于人类的非常棒的书，讲述了一个非常棒的人类。

So you do those years.

所以那些年你就这么做了。

Um...

嗯...

And then.

然后。

You know...

你知道...

What happens when 40 people close to you die?

当 40 个与你关系密切的人去世时会发生什么？

I have to imagine involves that you get pretty good, unfortunately.

不幸的是，我必须想象你会变得非常好。

At taking what each and every one of those is a tragedy and just continuing.

接受每一个悲剧都是一场悲剧，并且还在继续。

Yeah.

是的。

So let's just talk about that for a bit, if you're willing.

如果您愿意的话，让我们稍微讨论一下这个问题。

Yep.

是的。

So guys are getting shot and blown up, and you're close with them, to say the least.

所以人们会被枪杀或炸死，至少可以说，你和他们很接近。

And...

还有...

What was your role in the, in the aftermath?

事件发生后，您扮演了什么角色？

Like, like how did, what do you do?

比如，比如你是怎么做的？

You, you, Go to a funeral, you, you, you, uh...

你你你去参加葬礼你你你你呃...

Toast a few beers, and then you go back to work.

干杯啤酒，然后继续工作。

Minutes.

分钟。

That's kind of...

这有点...

You know, in the most simplistic terms, Andrew, that is exactly what happens.

你知道，安德鲁，用最简单的话说，这正是发生的事情。

There's obviously...

显然有...

You know, a lot more that goes on, but if you script the diary, so to speak.

你知道，还有很多事情在发生，但是如果你写下日记，可以这么说。

It's, it wasn't, you know, a funeral every three months, but on average, if I average it out, cause I've done this in You know, excavating.

你知道，这不是每三个月举行一次葬礼，但平均而言，如果我把它平均下来，因为我在你知道的挖掘中做过这件事。

The last few years.

最近几年。

We were at a funeral or memorial effectively every 90 days.

我们实际上每 90 天就会参加一次葬礼或追悼会。

And, um...

而且，嗯...

In that time period.

在那段时间里。

But it wasn't obviously, you know, that simple, like for for me and our family.

但对于我和我们的家人来说，这显然不是那么简单。

Doug was my first super close teammate killed and it wasn't in the teams, right?

道格是我第一个被杀的超级亲密队友，但他并不在队伍中，对吧？

I'm now at the command.

我现在听从指挥。

I was back from Afghanistan from Kandahar.

我从阿富汗坎大哈回来。

This is way before the Marines built up.

这是在海军陆战队建立之前很久的事了。

A hundred kilometers west of Kandahar, we were operating.

我们正在坎大哈以西一百公里处进行作业。

Six of us with like 180 Afghans kind of.

我们六个人，大概有 180 名阿富汗人。

The Wild West back then.

那时的狂野西部。

And Doug was killed that.

道格就这样被杀了。

Summer of 07.

07年夏天。

And I got a phone call from a friend.

我接到一个朋友打来的电话。

I was standing in my kitchen in Virginia Beach.

我站在弗吉尼亚海滩的厨房里。

And it was like...

这就像...

Like the whole scaffolding of the world was just gone.

就像整个世界的脚手架都消失了。

Because at that age, and here I am, like, I'm some kid.

因为在那个年纪，而我在这里，就像，我是个孩子。

I was in my 30s.

我当时30多岁。

But I'm thinking.

但我在想。

You know, things get more and more serious as you go, like at that time.

你知道，事情会随着你的进展而变得越来越严重，就像当时一样。

But when Doug was killed.

但当道格被杀时。

And I was at Paul Baroness'funeral.

我参加了保罗男爵夫人的葬礼。

And, you know, we came up to Annapolis.

而且，你知道，我们来到了安纳波利斯。

He was living in Annapolis because he was working.

他因为工作而住在安纳波利斯。

It's now been publicly released, which is nice for Pam because she can talk about it more.

现在它已经公开发布，这对 Pam 来说很好，因为她可以更多地谈论它。

He was working at the agency.

他当时在该机构工作。

And, um...

而且，嗯...

When after his funeral and just the days around that, and then I go back to work.

在他的葬礼结束后以及周围的几天里，我就回去工作了。

And what I mentioned earlier about Doug and what I knew about him just as an operator, he had been a company commander in Fallujah.

我之前提到过道格，以及我作为一名操作员对他的了解，他曾是费卢杰的连长。

He was on the front page of the L.

他登上了《L》的头版。

A.

A.

Times.

次。

Tony Perry is a reporter in San Diego.

托尼·佩里是圣地亚哥的一名记者。

He was in Fallujah following Doug.

他跟随道格在费卢杰。

The guy was—and Doug is not like a public people.

这家伙是——而且道格不像公众人物。

People were just attracted to him to tell his story.

人们只是被他吸引去讲述他的故事。

I have so many stories that I heard later from his bosses, his regimental commander, you know, told stories about his unit in Fallujah, his sergeant major and his amazing guy.

我有很多故事，后来我从他的老板那里听到了，他的团长，你知道，讲述了他在费卢杰的部队、他的军士长和他了不起的家伙的故事。

I've talked to him about like what went on in Fallujah.

我和他谈过费卢杰发生的事情。

Doug is just a fucking legend.

道格只是一个该死的传奇人物。

I mean, he was awesome.

我的意思是，他很棒。

And the dominant thought.

以及主导思想。

After his funeral was.

在他的葬礼之后。

If things, it's not that you don't think they're serious, and I mean just about life, Andrew.

如果有的话，那并不是说你不认为它们是严肃的，我的意思是关于生活，安德鲁。

It wasn't just about combat action and hard deployments.

这不仅仅是战斗行动和硬部署。

It was about...

这是关于...

If Doug can be killed.

如果道格能被杀的话。

All fucking bets are off.

所有该死的赌注都落空了。

They're all off.

他们都下班了

Like, if I didn't respect the rules before and didn't think society was particularly ordered in a way that I respected, you know, shit that I think is made up.

就像，如果我以前不尊重规则，并且不认为社会以我尊重的方式特别有序，你知道，我认为这些都是编造的。

I knew when Doug was killed that it's all fucking made up.

当道格被杀的时候我就知道这一切都是他妈编出来的。

Like, he was supposed to be.

就像，他应该是这样。

The Immortal One.

不朽者一.

And if he's not, none of us are.

如果他不是，我们谁也不是。

Like everything has to be reevaluated.

就像一切都必须重新评估一样。

You know, how old was I?

你知道，我那时多大？

I was 32.

那年我32岁。

And you've got kids at this point.

此时你已经有了孩子。

Mm-hmm, yeah, yep.

嗯嗯，是啊，是啊。

Yeah, Ollie wasn't born yet, my youngest.

是的，奥利还没有出生，我最小的孩子。

Because you now have three boys.

因为你现在有三个男孩了。

Yep, three boys, 21, 18, and 14, and the older two.

是的，三个男孩，分别是 21 岁、18 岁和 14 岁，还有两个年龄较大的男孩。

Were born.

出生了。

My middle son was two at the time.

我的二儿子当时两岁。

Did it occur to you at the point when Doug was killed...

当道格被杀的时候你有没有想到过……

Or maybe some other point that, you know, at some point you could die.

或者也许是其他一些事情，你知道，在某个时候你可能会死。

Oh, I mean, that's what I mean, Andrew.

哦，我是说，这就是我的意思，安德鲁。

You know, personal work and therapy afterwards.

你知道，之后的个人工作和治疗。

It was then that I started looking over my shoulder.

就在那时，我开始回头看。

Just in general, like everything was suddenly like has to be watched with a vigilant eye.

就一般而言，一切都像是突然发生的，需要警惕地注视着。

Something that close friends, close male friends of mine have told me, these are friends that are married with kids.

我的亲密朋友、亲密的男性朋友告诉我，这些是已婚有孩子的朋友。

And I've heard this from people that were in the military.

我从军队里的人那里听到了这一点。

As well as those that weren't, was that it was very important to them to marry somebody who, were they to die, they knew their kids would be.

和那些没有结婚的人一样，对他们来说，嫁给一个在他们死后知道他们的孩子会成为的人是非常重要的。

Well taken care of.

照顾得很好。

Oh, that one's not even, there's no questions.

哦，那个还不是，没有问题。

Yeah.

是的。

So that, that was a, a, like a primary criteria.

所以，这就是一个主要标准。

And I think in your line of work, I mean, that must be especially important because the probability of Dying is...

我认为在你的工作中，我的意思是，这一定特别重要，因为死亡的概率是......

Well, let's face it, it's much higher.

好吧，让我们面对现实吧，它要高得多。

As my sister who doesn't like sharks once told me, she said, you know, the best way to not get eaten by a shark is to never go in the ocean.

正如我不喜欢鲨鱼的姐姐曾经告诉我的那样，她说，你知道，不被鲨鱼吃掉的最好方法就是永远不要下海。

You know, there is a way to limiting probabilities.

你知道，有一种方法可以限制概率。

She'll swim in the ocean a little bit.

她会在海里游一会儿。

But the point being that when you're in the military and you're...

但重点是，当你在军队时，你...

You're Shoot, move and communicate is a big part of the job description and the And the enemy is also taught to shoot, move, and communicate that there's a decent probability that you could die.

你的射击、移动和交流是工作描述的重要组成部分，敌人也被教导要射击、移动和交流，你很有可能会死。

Did you ever think, okay, well, if I die...

你有没有想过，好吧，如果我死了……

My kids are okay because Bridget's solid.

我的孩子们都很好，因为布里奇特很坚强。

Or were you still just operating on this 24-hour schedule that you had adopted way back in the seventh grade?

或者你仍然只是按照七年级时采用的 24 小时时间表进行操作吗？

No, I think well, maybe.

不，我想也许吧。

I'd have to ask her that question.

我必须问她这个问题。

I think I was backed away from the 24-hour ledge a little bit.

我想我有点远离了 24 小时的壁架。

I...

我...

I knew that the boys obviously would be taken care of with my wife like that was never even never crossed my mind probably until you just asked the question that was almost just like table stakes.

我知道孩子们显然会和我的妻子一起照顾，就像我从来没有想过那样，可能直到你问了这个几乎就像赌注一样的问题。

Back to this adaptive but maladaptive behavior.

回到这种适应性但适应不良的行为。

When Doug was killed, I just realized I had to work even harder.

当道格被杀时，我才意识到我必须更加努力地工作。

To try to stay alive.

努力活下去。

Because if you met the guy, there is, I'm going to say it probably multiple, there is not a fucking human on the planet.

因为如果你遇到这个人，我会说，这个星球上根本就没有一个人类。

That was as tough and as focused and as...

那是一样艰难、一样专注、一样……

Hyper dialed in to how to do the job.

Hyper 询问了如何完成这项工作。

100% effectively.

100%有效。

As he was.

正如他本来的样子。

It happened to him, you know?

这事发生在他身上，你知道吗？

And I just never, it's almost embarrassing, Andrew, to say I never thought about it like that until Doug was killed.

我只是从来没有，安德鲁，说在道格被杀之前我从来没有这样想过，这几乎是令人尴尬的。

And yet, and I'm not challenging that at all, of course, I mean, life, circumstances, the other.

然而，我根本没有质疑这一点，当然，我的意思是，生活、环境和其他。

Team gets a vote too.

团队也有投票权。

Totally.

完全。

Right?

正确的？

I mean, somebody can be seemingly indestructible, oh so capable and talented, and get T-boned at an intersection.

我的意思是，有些人可能看起来坚不可摧，哦，非常有能力和才华，但在十字路口却变得丁字形。

Right?

正确的？

Like that.

就这样。

Yeah.

是的。

We've known people like that.

我们认识这样的人。

All of us, you know, you hear these things.

我们所有人，你知道，你都听到过这些事情。

That's why they're called tragedies.

这就是为什么它们被称为悲剧。

Yeah, we just, like to put it in context, we have to remember is part of the beauty.

是的，我们只是喜欢把它放在上下文中，我们必须记住这是美的一部分。

Of taking a young person and taking all the ingredients that a person comes into special operations, pick your service.

带上一个年轻人并带上一个人进入特殊行动的所有要素，选择你的服务。

I'm agnostic.

我是不可知论者。

I mean.

我是说。

Some of my best buddies are Army and Marine Corps.

我最好的朋友是陆军和海军陆战队。

I'm agnostic to the service head.

我对服务主管不可知。

When you end up at a certain point and you look back, you realize for 10 or 15 years...

当你到达某个点并回头看时，你会意识到已经过去了 10 或 15 年......

I've been indoctrinated in a very adaptive way.

我已经以一种非常适应性的方式被灌输了思想。

To believe that I'm immortal.

相信我是不朽的。

Because if you didn't...

因为如果你不...

You certainly wouldn't jump out of an aircraft at 25,000 feet with no lights.

你当然不会从没有灯光的 25,000 英尺高空的飞机上跳下来。

And you for hell for sure wouldn't go into some of these fucking towns we go into and end up in these firefights.

你绝对不会进入我们所去过的那些该死的城镇并最终陷入这些交火。

Like you have some weird.

好像你有一些奇怪的东西。

I'll speak for myself.

我会为自己说话。

I was entirely convinced that I couldn't be killed.

我完全确信我不可能被杀死。

And I just because I was in some way Andrew convinced that our training was so good that that shit wouldn't happen to us.

我只是因为安德鲁在某种程度上相信我们的训练非常好，这样的事情不会发生在我们身上。

Let's take a step back for a second and acknowledge the truth all around that.

让我们退后一步，承认这一切的真相。

Set of statements, which is that I think most people can think of the government and the training programs as.

一组陈述，这是我认为大多数人都能想到的政府和培训计划。

Honing the body, but...

磨练身体，但是……

It's probably not lost on you at this point in your life that you're a weapon.

在你人生的这个阶段，你可能并没有忘记自己是一件武器。

Your mind became a weapon, right?

你的思想变成了武器，对吗？

Your body became a weapon.

你的身体变成了武器。

You were a weapon of the military from the inside out.

从内到外，你都是军队的武器。

And in the statement you just made encapsulates that.

你刚才的声明概括了这一点。

And that weapon honed itself for a long time, but then that's what the military is.

这种武器经过很长时间的磨练，但这就是军队。

It creates weapons out of humans.

它用人类创造武器。

And I'm not demonizing the military whatsoever.

我并没有妖魔化军队。

I want to be very clear.

我想说得很清楚。

I realize that statement could be considered differently, but that mindset encapsulates that.

我意识到这种说法可以有不同的考虑，但这种心态概括了这一点。

So- So with the other guys, I want to make sure I finish your question.

所以-所以对于其他人来说，我想确保我完成了你的问题。

So it started with Doug, and then, you know...

所以一切都是从道格开始的，然后，你知道......

I don't know what direction you want to go here specifically, but then it just kept going, Andrew, right?

我不知道你具体想往哪个方向走，但然后它就继续前进，安德鲁，对吗？

Like at that time.

就像那时一样。

Doug was 07, and then we went to Iraq in the winter of 07, 08, which was...

道格是 07 年，然后我们在 07 年、08 年冬天去了伊拉克，那是……

Complete mayhem.

彻底的混乱。

And the troop was...

而这支部队是...

I mean, my...

我的意思是，我的...

My troop.

我的部队。

In the winter of 07-08.

07-08年冬天。

We're like...

我们就像...

Fucking superheroes.

该死的超级英雄。

And a guy named Tommy Valentine was the troop chief.

一个叫汤米·瓦伦丁的人是部队长。

And we got home, and he was killed in a parachute accident after all that shit we went through.

我们回到家后，在我们经历了那么多糟糕的事情之后，他在一次降落伞事故中丧生。

Badger, a guy named Mark Carter was killed in that deployment.

巴杰，一个名叫马克·卡特的人在那次部署中被杀。

We got home and Tommy was killed in a parachute accident.

我们回到家，汤米在一次降落伞事故中丧生。

And me and a guy named Dutch, we went up to Minnesota.

我和一个叫达奇的人去了明尼苏达州。

To notify Tommy's parents and his sister and his brother.

通知汤米的父母以及他的妹妹和弟弟。

And we're not, the Navy calls them CACOs, like Casualty Assistance Officers.

我们不是，海军称他们为 CACO，就像伤亡援助官一样。

These are jobs in the military where you're trained to do this stuff.

这些是军队中的工作，你接受过这些工作的训练。

You know, one of the things that's amazing about us is if a guy gets killed, we send a team guy there.

你知道，我们令人惊奇的事情之一是，如果一个人被杀，我们会派一个团队成员去那里。

But think about the team guy.

但想想团队成员。

Like, it's great for the family that you send the team guy.

就像，你派团队成员对家人来说很棒。

But we don't know shit about sitting with a family who's about to be notified that their son, in this case of Tommy, was killed.

但我们对与一个即将收到儿子（在本例中为汤米）被杀的消息的家庭坐在一起一事一无所知。

Britt went to Christina's house, Slab, Britt Slabinski.

布里特去了克里斯蒂娜家，斯拉布，布里特·斯拉宾斯基。

He went to Christina's house, and me and Dutch went up to Minnesota.

他去了克里斯蒂娜家，我和达奇去了明尼苏达。

And...

还有...

I'm shaking right now.

我现在正在发抖。

Like I was shaking the whole drive.

就像我在摇晃整个驱动器一样。

We had to get to International Falls all the way up north.

我们必须一路向北到达国际瀑布。

The Valentines are incredible people.

情人节是不可思议的人。

And I mean, notifying a family was just...

我的意思是，通知家人只是......

It was brutal.

这很残酷。

And so this is, this is, this is 08.

所以这是，这是，这是 08。

And then it just keeps coming.

然后它就不断出现。

It's Nate and it's Mike.

这是内特，这是迈克。

And it's Lance and it's extortion in 2011.

这是兰斯在 2011 年发生的勒索事件。

And in the middle of that Adam gets killed, right?

就在这中间，亚当被杀了，对吗？

Like tons of people know about extortion because it was one helicopter, obviously full.

就像很多人都知道敲诈勒索一样，因为那是一架直升机，而且显然已经满员了。

Well, maybe we just briefly want to mention that was August 2011, as I recall.

好吧，也许我们只是想简单提一下，据我记得，那是 2011 年 8 月。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah, August of 11.

是的，11号8月。

Yeah.

是的。

So, but in 2010, Adam is killed.

但在 2010 年，亚当被杀了。

And...

还有...

I got a phone call and I wasn't best friend.

我接到一个电话，我不是最好的朋友。

I mean, Adam had some very close friends as a command that I don't want to make some, anybody give the impression that like me and Adam were boys.

我的意思是，亚当有一些非常亲密的朋友，作为一个命令，我不想交一些朋友，任何人都会给人留下像我和亚当一样都是男孩的印象。

We were, we knew each other well, right?

我们是，我们很了解彼此，对吧？

We went through green team together.

我们一起经历了绿队。

He was in a different squadron though.

不过他在另一个中队。

So you sort of get separated a little.

所以你们有点分开了。

And...

还有...

I got a phone call in the middle of the night.

半夜我接到一个电话。

From one of my buddies who's still in, who is another legend.

来自我的一位仍然在场的朋友，他是另一个传奇人物。

And, um...

而且，嗯...

I answered the phone and it's midnight.

我接起电话，已经是半夜了。

I knew something was wrong.

我知道出了什么问题。

And we were kind of in this pattern then, Andrew, like actually a few of the commands were.

安德鲁，我们当时就处于这种模式，就像实际上的一些命令一样。

Like our partner command and a bunch of other guys we work with in other units.

就像我们的合作指挥部和其他部队中与我们一起工作的其他人一样。

It was a hard time.

那是一段艰难的时光。

Like, guys were fighting hard overseas, and that just comes with the consequences we know, you know?

就像，人们在海外奋战，这会带来我们知道的后果，你知道吗？

And I get the phone call in the middle of the night.

然后我在半夜接到电话。

I'm like...

我就像...

And so...

所以...

This guy tells me, you know, get your uniform.

这家伙告诉我，你知道，穿上制服。

You need to come in.

你需要进来。

Something happened.

发生了一些事情。

And I'm like, I fucking know what happened.

我想，我他妈知道发生了什么。

Like, tell me who it is.

比如，告诉我这是谁。

And they, you know, didn't want to say it over the phone, which I get.

你知道，他们不想通过电话说出来，我明白。

And I...

而我...

I had like one of those moments where I told him, no, I can't.

有一次我告诉他，不，我不能。

I can't do that again.

我不能再这样做了。

Like, you have to get somebody who knows what the fuck they're doing.

就像，你必须找一个知道自己在做什么的人。

And he just didn't let me off the hook, you know?

他就是不让我摆脱困境，你知道吗？

Get your shit and come into the command.

拿起你的狗屎，进入指挥部。

Because you've got to do all this prep stuff.

因为你必须做所有这些准备工作。

I walked into the conference room.

我走进会议室。

I mean, I remember it clear as day.

我的意思是，我记得清清楚楚。

I walked into the conference room and I could see it on everybody's face.

我走进会议室，我可以在每个人的脸上看到这一点。

Again, this is 2010 now.

再说一遍，现在是 2010 年。

They were.

他们是。

More terrified than I was.

比我还害怕。

And these are, you know, civilian guys, guys who retired who are now civilians.

你知道，这些都是平民，退休后现在是平民的人。

They work at the command and amazing people.

他们在指挥下工作并且令人惊叹。

They looked like...

他们看起来像……

I don't know if you've seen, Peter Jackson's remake.

我不知道你是否看过彼得·杰克逊的翻拍版。

They shall not grow old.

他们不会变老。

Oh, you have to watch it.

哦，你必须注意它。

They shall not grow old as Peter Jackson took.

他们不会像彼得·杰克逊那样变老。

Real war war one footage oh i did see that yeah yes put the color and the lip reading and it and there's a scene i don't know if it's a battle of the bulge or exactly there's a scene where This young unit, Army unit, is about to go up over the top and run across an open field.

真正的战争一战镜头哦，我确实看到了，是的，是的，把颜色和唇读放在一起，有一个场景，我不知道这是一场突出部的战斗，还是有一个场景，这个年轻的部队，陆军部队，即将爬上山顶，跑过一片空旷的场地。

The camera pans over.

摄像机平移过来。

And there's a young kid with his rifle in front of him.

还有一个小孩子，他的面前拿着步枪。

With a bayonet affixed to it, his helmet on, His lips are sort of flat and pursed.

身上插着刺刀，戴着头盔，嘴唇有些扁平，撅起。

And he, everybody in that conference room looked like him.

而他，那个会议室里的每个人看起来都像他。

When I saw that movie later, I'm like, every single person looked like him.

后来我看那部电影时，我想，每个人看起来都像他。

And they told me it was Adam, and we were going to go notify Kelly.

他们告诉我是亚当，我们要去通知凯利。

His wife.

他的妻子。

And he had little ones at that point savannah nathan yeah they were small and We knocked on, she had a sort of a stained glass.

那时他有孩子，萨凡纳·内森，是的，他们很小，我们敲了敲门，她有一个彩色玻璃。

Like window?

比如窗户？

And I could see her at the top of the The stairs?

我可以在楼梯顶上看到她吗？

I was the worst man.

我是最糟糕的人。

It was the worst.

这是最糟糕的。

So we sat with Kelly and a bunch of other guys were there, of course.

所以我们和凯利坐在一起，当然还有其他一群人也在场。

It wasn't just me.

不仅仅是我。

And we did our best.

我们尽力了。

And I learned later and, you know.

我后来才知道，你知道。

Reading Paul's work, Dr. Conti and other people.

阅读保罗、孔蒂博士和其他人的著作。

Like that was it, dude.

就是这样，伙计。

I was like a, I don't know if it's a locust or whatever that sheds their skin.

我当时就想，我不知道那是蝗虫还是什么会脱皮的东西。

I literally like left a shell of myself on Kelly's front porch and walked out of my skin.

我真的喜欢把自己的躯壳留在凯利的前廊上，然后从我的皮肤里走出来。

It was, that was tough.

确实，那很艰难。

That was tough.

那很艰难。

And so that was kind of the tempo, to answer your question, like it wasn't exactly every 90 days.

这就是回答你的问题的节奏，就像不是每 90 天回答一次一样。

But almost every 90 days from 06 to 2011 for me, I got out in the fall of 2011, it was memorial at the theater, memorial at the people's house.

但对我来说，从06年到2011年几乎每隔90天，我都会在2011年秋天出去，是在剧院的纪念，在人民之家的纪念。

And our neighbor across the street in Virginia Beach, she lost her husband in 07, so one house over.

我们街对面的弗吉尼亚海滩邻居，她在 07 年失去了丈夫，所以只剩下一栋房子了。

So she was best friends with us.

所以她是我们最好的朋友。

And so you are trying to live two lives.

所以你正在努力过两种生活。

You have this.

你有这个。

Military life with all these consequences where Every bone in your body is telling you to...

军事生活带来所有这些后果，你身体的每一根骨头都在告诉你......

Go full Spartan.

全力斯巴达。

Like, no, not that the Spartans didn't have families because they did.

就像，不，并不是说斯巴达人没有家庭，因为他们有家庭。

Whatever.

任何。

Nothing else.

没有别的了。

Like, just cut off every other thing in your life completely.

就像，完全切断你生活中的所有其他事情。

You have to go do this, and you have to do it full on because clearly all bets are off.

你必须去做这件事，你必须全力以赴，因为显然所有的赌注都已失败。

Like, we're barely making it through.

就像，我们差点就熬过去了。

We're losing our best guys.

我们正在失去最好的球员。

And how the fuck do I survive at this pace?

以这种速度我他妈的怎么生存？

And so because we're all in the same community in Virginia Beach, you're around it all the time when you're home, you know, and you should be because you're supporting your teammates'families, and that's important.

因为我们都在弗吉尼亚海滩的同一个社区，所以当你在家的时候，你总是在周围，你知道，你应该这样做，因为你在支持你的队友的家庭，这很重要。

But it was just, it's almost like a dream, you know.

但这只是，这几乎就像一个梦，你知道。

When I think about it now, how do...

现在我想起来，我该怎么办...

How did we live like that?

我们是怎样生活的？

How does anyone live like that?

怎么会有人这样生活呢？

And I know, you know, my experience as a military, people go through, you know, all sorts of tough situations and different walks of life.

我知道，你知道，我作为一名军人的经历，人们经历过，你知道，各种艰难的情况和不同的行业。

But I have so much compassion for anybody who's trying to live in an environment like that where You know, you are going on the next deployment.

但我对那些试图生活在这样的环境中的人深表同情，你知道，你将进行下一次部署。

I mean, look, Andrew, we left Bakuman in 08 before Tommy was killed.

我的意思是，安德鲁，你看，我们在 08 年汤米被杀之前离开了巴库曼。

Three fucking weeks later, guys are getting blown up in the same area.

他妈的三周后，同一地区的人们都被炸了。

And they got all the debrief from us.

他们从我们那里得到了所有汇报。

They knew exactly where to go, but it was just such a kinetic environment.

他们确切地知道该去哪里，但这就是一个动态的环境。

It was almost like you couldn't stop it, you know?

就好像你无法阻止它，你知道吗？

It was just like the balls rolling.

就像球滚动一样。

When I think about people overseas and, you know, different situations that countries find themselves in right now.

当我想到海外的人们，以及各国目前所处的不同情况时。

I can feel it for them, you know, what it takes.

我可以为他们感受到，你知道，这需要付出什么。

It's a...

这是一个...

It's an intense environment.

这是一个激烈的环境。

Certainly that comes through.

当然这是可以实现的。

I think years ago you said to me, And this will be an important way of setting aside which side people are on, you know, whether or not you side with.

我想几年前你对我说过，这将是一个重要的方式来区分人们站在哪一边，你知道，无论你是否站在一边。

One group in the Middle East or the other, you feel for everybody that one of the things that you said that really rung in my ears for a long time is that The Warriors on both sides.

无论是中东的一支球队还是另一支球队，你都会感觉到你所说的在我耳边萦绕了很长时间的一件事就是双方的勇士队。

In their own minds.

在他们自己的心里。

Each and all of them.

他们每一个人。

Are just doing what they think is right for them and their families.

只是做他们认为对他们和他们的家人正确的事情。

You cannot erase that fact.

你无法抹去这个事实。

Like whether or not the government of this country or the government of that country or group was correct or incorrect, whether or not you're even talking about a terrorist cell versus a military, a formal military group or special operations group that in the minds of the warriors.

就像这个国家的政府或那个国家或团体的政府是正确还是错误，无论你是否在谈论战士们心目中的恐怖组织与军队、正式的军事团体或特种作战团体。

They're doing what they truly believe.

他们正在做他们真正相信的事情。

Is right for them and their families, and sometimes country as well.

适合他们和他们的家人，有时也适合国家。

And when I heard that, it was sort of a, you know, it's sort of an obvious statement on the one hand, but it's a very important one, I think, to the...

当我听到这个消息时，你知道，一方面，这是一个显而易见的声明，但我认为，对于……来说，这是一个非常重要的声明。

Psychology that, you know, everyone's fighting tooth and nail.

从心理学上来说，你知道，每个人都在竭尽全力地战斗。

Because they believe that they are right.

因为他们相信自己是对的。

Or...

或者...

They're just fighting tooth and nail for whatever reason.

不管出于什么原因，他们只是竭尽全力地战斗。

And that was an important thing for me to hear and I think about that a lot when I see any news stories about international conflict or Terrorist military conflict, terrorist civilian stuff.

这对我来说是一件很重要的事情，当我看到任何有关国际冲突或恐怖主义军事冲突、恐怖主义平民事件的新闻报道时，我会经常思考这一点。

Even people, there's something about the human brain.

即使是人，人类的大脑也有一些东西。

People get this into their mind, like this is my job and they're doing it.

人们把这一点牢记在心，就好像这是我的工作，他们正在做。

It doesn't justify it.

这并不能证明它是合理的。

Right.

正确的。

But.

但。

Going back to this thing of being a weapon.

回到武器这件事上来。

Yep.

是的。

Humans can be trained as weapons, and it's often not the weapons themselves that are making the decisions about where to go and what to do.

人类可以被训练成武器，但决定去哪里和做什么的往往不是武器本身。

Sometimes it is.

有时是这样。

Um...

嗯...

At this time, Coleman, what's going on with the three boys, with Bridget?

这个时候，科尔曼，三个男孩，还有布里奇特，怎么样了？

I mean, you're...

我的意思是，你...

I mean, your boys have turned out really well.

我的意思是，你的孩子们表现得非常好。

They're amazing.

他们太棒了。

They're amazing.

他们太棒了。

And there's no coincidence there.

这并不是巧合。

And obviously it was a team effort with you and Bridget.

显然，这是你和布里奇特团队共同努力的结果。

But there are a lot of things about the way the scenario you're describing here that speaks to like.

但你在这里描述的场景的方式有很多东西都让人喜欢。

How can a home function?

一个家如何发挥作用？

But obviously...

但显然...

It functioned well.

它运作良好。

You know, it's remarkable, but it can't be due to chance.

你知道，这很了不起，但这不可能是偶然的。

So were you able to compartmentalize, like, the moment you hit your front door?

那么，你能在你一进前门的那一刻就进行划分吗？

Your dad at home, your husband, your, and was that a pause in a conversation with yourself at the front door, that's just something that becomes reflexive.

你的父亲在家里，你的丈夫，你的，以及在前门与自己对话时的停顿，这只是一种条件反射。

I mean, I...

我的意思是，我...

I think it was just reflexive.

我认为这只是条件反射。

It wasn't really a pause at the front door.

这并不是在前门真正的停顿。

And admittedly, the story I would like to tell is that I was super zen about it and I had this process.

不可否认，我想讲的故事是我对此非常有禅宗，并且我有这个过程。

And I would come home and I would take this off and put on regular dad things.

当我回到家时，我会把它脱下来，穿上普通的爸爸衣服。

And I think I was just.

我想我是公正的。

By the same level of effort that we put into what we were doing.

我们在所做的事情上付出了同样的努力。

Bridget and every other wife, mom.

布里奇特和其他所有的妻子，妈妈。

At least the ones that I knew, they put that level effort in as well.

至少在我认识的人中，他们也付出了同样的努力。

It made our home life.

它成就了我们的家庭生活。

Just very comfortable.

就是很舒服。

So it was easy.

所以这很容易。

Like I didn't have to go through some process, right?

好像我不需要经历一些过程，对吧？

It was, this is how I remember it.

原来如此，我记得是这样的。

It was easy for me.

这对我来说很容易。

I don't know if it was easy for Bridget.

我不知道这对布里奇特来说是否容易。

She would have to answer that question.

她必须回答这个问题。

It was easy for me.

这对我来说很容易。

And so I felt like for the most part, Like I was, I wasn't like platoon commander dad, you know, some movie, you know, the great Santini type dad, you know, I think Pat Conroy wrote the great Santini.

所以我觉得在很大程度上，就像我一样，我不像排长爸爸，你知道，有些电影，你知道，伟大的桑蒂尼类型的爸爸，你知道，我认为帕特·康罗伊写了伟大的桑蒂尼。

His dad was crazy apparently or it's like, that's what he writes about.

他的父亲显然疯了，或者说，这就是他所写的。

It wasn't like that.

事情不是那样的。

It was more of.

更多的是。

This home is such a relief.

这个家真是一种解脱。

And Bridget is so dialed that I don't have to, unfortunately, hard for Bridget, I don't have to do anything.

不幸的是，布丽吉特是如此的专心致志，我不必为布丽吉特努力，我不必做任何事情。

You know, the time that I'm here, I can be here.

你知道，当我在这里的时候，我就可以在这里。

And then...

然后...

You know, go away again.

你知道吗，再走开吧。

And so it's, as we know, what trauma does to the mind.

正如我们所知，这就是创伤对心灵的影响。

Like, there are many, many stretches of that time period.

就像，那个时期有很多很多的延伸。

That...

那...

I just don't remember.

我只是不记得了。

And what I do remember is mostly, obviously, the fun times, the front yard, the whatever, playing with the boys.

显然，我所记得的大部分都是有趣的时光，前院，无论什么，和男孩们一起玩耍。

Doing roughhousing and going on vacation and stuff.

打闹、去度假之类的。

But when I was in the grind, when we were in the training cycle of our cycle or deployment or whatever, I don't really remember.

但当我陷入困境时，当我们处于我们的周期或部署或其他什么的训练周期时，我真的不记得了。

Sections of it.

其中的部分。

So, A lot far too many.

所以，太多了。

I guess even one would be far too many doorbells ringing on doorbells you decide to get out.

我想即使是一个门铃也会让你决定出去的门铃响得太多。

Was that a conscious decision based on time, conscious decision based on, like, I would like to have the rest of my life?

这是一个基于时间的有意识的决定，是基于“我想要余生”的有意识的决定吗？

You're done.

你完成了。

I don't like to call it a regret, you know?

我不喜欢称之为遗憾，你知道吗？

But it's just kind of emblematic of where I was.

但这只是我所处位置的象征。

It was the right decision.

这是正确的决定。

I do not regret getting out at the 13-year mark, not for a second.

我不后悔在 13 年后退出，一秒钟也不后悔。

I needed it, we needed it as a family.

我需要它，我们作为一个家庭需要它。

It was a snap.

这是一个瞬间。

It was a snap decision.

这是一个仓促的决定。

It was like a, what do we say, 24 hour decision?

这就像 24 小时做出的决定？

24 hour horizon.

24小时地平线。

Standing on the ledge of the 24 hour horizon.

站在24小时地平线的边缘。

And you said, what year was that again?

你说，那又是哪一年？

That was the fall of 2011.

那是2011年的秋天。

Yeah.

是的。

So that's about four or five years before you and I met.

那是你和我认识之前大约四五年的事了。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

So extortion, we don't have to touch into it too deeply because people can look it up, but this was a massive loss of special operations, including a lot of SEALs.

所以敲诈勒索，我们不必太深入地触及它，因为人们可以查到它，但这是特别行动的巨大损失，包括很多海豹突击队。

It was basically a helicopter shot out of the sky with a...

它基本上是一架直升机从天上射出......

With a rap with a grenade right yeah rpg rpg people can look it up if they want to and there's a lot of material out there about it it's just can only be described as a tragedy so and i'm not trying to make light of it i just think you know that we could do there's a lot to explore there for in a different discussion kiss you're out Now the probability that you're going to die is much lower.

带着手榴弹的说唱，对，是的，角色扮演游戏，人们可以根据需要查找它，并且有很多关于它的材料，它只能被描述为一场悲剧，所以我并不是想轻视它，我只是认为你知道我们可以做很多事情可以在不同的讨论中探索，吻你出去现在你死亡的可能性要低得多。

Provided.

假如。

It's not what my nervous system said.

这不是我的神经系统所说的。

Right.

正确的。

But you're out.

但你已经out了。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And...

还有...

What do you do?

你做什么？

Meaning, what do you do with all that energy?

意思是，你用这些能量做什么？

The energy of.

的能量.

The way you've been operating up until now, these intense battle rhythms, vampire schedules, as you call them.

到目前为止你的运作方式，这些激烈的战斗节奏，吸血鬼时间表，正如你所说的那样。

But also, what do you do with all the energy of what happened?

而且，你如何利用发生的事情的所有能量呢？

You know, I think this is where...

你知道，我想这就是……

I think our conversation really...

我觉得我们的谈话真的...

Hopefully has been related to other people as we've been going, but that, you know, Sometimes I stop and I'm like, I know I'm supposed to process all this stuff.

希望我们一直在与其他人建立联系，但是，你知道，有时我会停下来，我想，我知道我应该处理所有这些事情。

You know?

你知道？

That's happened.

事情就这样发生了。

But it's like, what do you do when so much has happened?

但这就像，当发生了这么多事情时，你该怎么办？

Or when something's happened that you know you have to move on from, you know you need to compartmentalize, but that lives in our nervous system.

或者当发生了一些事情，你知道你必须继续前进，你知道你需要划分，但这存在于我们的神经系统中。

So are you thinking about that?

那么你在想这个吗？

You're colman ruiz at that point you're just you're just going forward just fucking crazy i mean.

那时你就是科尔曼·鲁伊斯，我的意思是，你只是在疯狂地前进。

I just didn't know, you know, it's 2011.

我只是不知道，你知道，现在是2011年了。

It doesn't sound like that long ago, but still.

听起来不像很久以前的事，但仍然如此。

In 2011, this was not a topic for conversation.

在 2011 年，这还不是一个话题。

You know, and.

你知道，并且。

I took maybe one week to process out.

我大概花了一周的时间来处理。

I turned in my gear.

我交上了我的装备。

I turned in my badge.

我上交了我的徽章。

And my next visit to the command years later, I had to be escorted on by people I worked with in the same fucking squadron.

几年后，我下次访问司令部时，我必须由在同一个中队共事的人护送。

Like, so within a matter of one week, I'm a stranger.

就这样，一周之内，我就变成了一个陌生人。

Like, I can't get on the base.

就像，我无法进入基地。

There's reasons for that.

这是有原因的。

I get that.

我明白了。

But I'm just using it as a.

但我只是把它当作一个。

I mean, to make the point.

我的意思是，为了说明这一点。

There was nothing dishonorable about how you went.

你的表现并没有什么不光彩的地方。

Just that there's security reasons.

只是有安全原因。

Once you're out, you can't just drive on the base anymore, you know?

一旦你出去了，你就不能再在基地里开车了，知道吗？

This is like emblematic of, of course, I didn't talk to anybody about it, not even Bridget, but at the time, in those first, call it couple of years or even couple of months, I don't know.

当然，这就像一个象征，我没有和任何人谈论过这件事，甚至没有和布里奇特谈论过，但当时，在最初的那段时间里，称之为几年甚至几个月，我不知道。

The question you just asked me is a question I was asked, like, what do I do?

你刚才问我的问题也是我被问到的问题，比如，我该怎么办？

Like, not with work.

就像，不是工作。

Like, what do I do, period?

就像，我该怎么办？

With life.

与生命。

Like, how do I manage my time?

比如，我如何管理我的时间？

And I'm not some bumbling idiot.

我也不是什么笨手笨脚的白痴。

It's not like...

这不像是...

I was walking around the neighborhood.

我在附近散步。

Like trying to figure out where my house was.

就像试图找出我的房子在哪里一样。

I had just been in that environment for so long, to your point.

就你的观点而言，我已经在那种环境中呆了很长时间了。

That, um...

那个，嗯...

I didn't know what to do.

我不知道该怎么办。

I didn't know what to do with...

我不知道该怎么办...

My thoughts, my feelings, my, you know, I could go to the Buddhist five aggregates, my thoughts, feelings, perceptions, physical form, like all these things I've learned about and thought about later that have helped so much.

我的思想、我的感受、我的、你知道的，我可以转向佛教的五蕴，我的思想、感受、知觉、身体形态，就像我后来学到和思考的所有这些东西一样，它们对我有很大帮助。

I didn't know what to do with any of it.

我不知道该怎么办。

I didn't know what to do with night sweats.

我不知道晚上盗汗怎么办。

I didn't know what to do with, I thought the term PTSD was the biggest fucking joke on the planet until I read all the symptoms, and I'm like...

我不知道该怎么办，我以为“创伤后应激障碍”这个词是这个星球上最大的笑话，直到我读到所有的症状，我想……

Wait, wait a minute.

等一下，等一下。

Sounds familiar.

听起来很熟悉。

And so it's that.

就是这样。

And so I remember, like, even the little things that kind of make the point of the big things.

所以我记得，即使是小事也能说明大事的意义。

I didn't know how to get a dentist.

我不知道如何去看牙医。

I could just go to the dentist in the military.

我可以去军队看牙医。

You know, I thought when I was walking around the food line that somebody was going to call me and say, come back to the base because, like, the bubble went up.

你知道，我以为当我在食品排队周围走动时，有人会打电话给我并说，回到基地，因为就像泡沫上升了一样。

You just, I had zero context and didn't have...

你只是，我的背景为零并且没有......

The courage or the not even not even just the courage but know who to ask right it wasn't The mentoring, one of the most important books in my life in the last 12 years has been Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces.

勇气，甚至不仅仅是勇气，但知道该问谁，这不是指导，过去12年我生命中最重要的书之一是约瑟夫·坎贝尔的《千面英雄》。

For the back end of the hero's journey.

为了英雄旅程的后端。

And...

还有...

I haven't read it.

我还没读过。

I know I should.

我知道我应该这样做。

I know I should.

我知道我应该这样做。

You should actually listen to it.

你真的应该听听它。

I should listen to it.

我应该听听。

It's better to...

最好...

I've probably only listened to five audiobooks in my life.

我一生中可能只听过五本有声读物。

I prefer to read in paper because I can take notes.

我更喜欢阅读纸质书，因为我可以做笔记。

In the margin, that book is better listened to.

在边缘，那本书更好听。

Hero with a thousand faces.

千面英雄。

The hero with a thousand faces.

千面英雄。

Could you just highlight a couple of the things that you took from the back end of that that somehow shifted your mind toward like, like cued you?

你能否强调一下你从后端得到的一些东西，这些东西以某种方式改变了你的想法，就像提示你的那样？

I'm thinking Coleman Ruiz circa 2011 is like.

我认为 2011 年左右的科尔曼·鲁伊斯 (Coleman Ruiz) 就是这样的。

I'm like, what do I do now?

我想，我现在该怎么办？

And then something cues you.

然后有东西提示你。

There's like a beacon someplace.

某处就像一座灯塔。

It's like, I always think of this like a texture of something.

就像，我总是认为这就像某种东西的纹理。

And you're like, oh, I want to, you know, you want to feel it more to get a sense of what it is.

你会想，哦，我想要，你知道，你想要更多地感受它，了解它是什么。

Is that about right?

是这样吗？

It was in that case for sure.

肯定是在那种情况下。

So Joseph Campbell wrote that book in 1949.

约瑟夫·坎贝尔 (Joseph Campbell) 在 1949 年写了这本书。

And The Hero with a Thousand Faces is effectively the 17-stage hero journey, which, by the way, George Lucas...

《千面英雄》实际上是 17 个阶段的英雄之旅，顺便说一下，乔治·卢卡斯……

Says and has said many times publicly, he built the arc of Star Wars around the 17-stage hero's journey.

他曾多次公开表示，他围绕 17 个阶段的英雄旅程构建了《星球大战》的弧线。

He credits Joseph Campbell's book for...

他将约瑟夫·坎贝尔的书归功于……

Helping him.

帮助他。

If you ever read it or you go through the 17 stages or you see it or watch a short video anybody You'll see how damn near everybody's life, which is why it's called the monomyth He describes it as the monomyth or the cosmogonic cycle a little weirder term for it.

如果你读过它，或者经历过 17 个阶段，或者你看过它，或者观看任何人的短视频，你会发现每个人的生活多么接近，这就是为什么它被称为单一神话，他将其描述为单一神话或宇宙起源循环，这是一个有点奇怪的术语。

But what he lays out in the book is, I don't know, maybe.

但他在书中所阐述的是，我不知道，也许吧。

Supposedly 2,000 years of culture across multiple cultures.

据说有 2000 年的跨文化历史。

The book is incredibly complicated in that sense.

从这个意义上说，这本书非常复杂。

Andrew, when I so I listened to it audio first and then went back to it and listened to it in paper.

安德鲁，当我这样的时候，我先听了音频，然后再回去听纸上的内容。

I could not believe how a human could put this narrative together, honestly.

老实说，我无法相信一个人如何能够将这个故事组合在一起。

And so But the summary I struggled with the first 10 stages a little bit, but I'll try to come back to them.

所以，但是总结一下，我在前 10 个阶段中遇到了一点困难，但我会尝试回到它们。

If you look at the image when you lay out the 17 stages, the way it's in a circle is the ordinary world.

如果你看一下17个阶段的布局图，它围成一个圆圈的样子就是平常的世界。

And the extraordinary world is on the bottom of the page, right?

而非凡的世界就在页面的底部，对吧？

And there's a horizontal line.

还有一条水平线。

The diameter of that circle goes horizontally across, and the extraordinary world's on the bottom.

那圆圈的直径是水平的，非凡的世界就在底部。

The ordinary world's on the top, okay?

平凡的世界在上面，好吗？

And so let me talk about the back end of the journey first because what I was mostly concerned about with when a friend pointed me to...

因此，让我先谈谈旅程的后端，因为当朋友向我指出时，我最关心的是......

To that book was my return to the ordinary world.

那本书让我回到了平凡的世界。

And he told me, Coleman, you've got to read this book.

他告诉我，科尔曼，你必须读这本书。

And so the back end of the hero's journey.

英雄之旅的后端就这样结束了。

In the return section, is three, seven stages of the 17.

在返回部分，是三、七阶段的17。

It's the ultimate boon, which is you learned something big.

这是终极的好处，那就是你学到了一些大东西。

In life.

在生活中。

It depended on everybody learned something where you sort of realize that something big happened to me.

这取决于每个人都学到了一些东西，让你意识到我身上发生了一些大事。

That's the ultimate boon.

这是最终的恩惠。

And you have this incredible desire to do something with it.

你有一种难以置信的渴望用它来做点什么。

It's either knowledge or it's experience or whatever.

它要么是知识，要么是经验，或者其他什么。

And...

还有...

The ultimate boon you have and you feel.

你所拥有和感受到的终极恩惠。

Like this life thing.

就像这辈子的事。

And then the next stage is typically...

然后下一阶段通常是......

Refusal of the return.

拒绝退货。

You really don't want to come back to the ordinary world because you feel that there is some level of consequence that maybe...

你真的不想回到平凡的世界，因为你觉得可能会有某种程度的后果......

You can't handle or somebody won't understand, you know?

你无法处理或者别人不会理解，你知道吗？

Or maybe it's too mundane.

或者也许这太平凡了。

You'll be...

你会...

Maybe.

也许吧。

You'll feel adrift.

你会感到飘忽不定。

Totally, yeah.

完全是的。

And this is in the description of the stages, what you just described as part of that description.

这是在阶段的描述中，您刚刚描述的内容是该描述的一部分。

The next stage, you're coming up back into the ordinary world on this return, is Magic Flight.

下一阶段，你将在这次回归中回到平凡的世界，是魔法飞行。

And the way it's described in, you know, myths or in real life is.

你知道，神话或现实生活中描述它的方式就是这样。

You have to escape that extraordinary world and take one more dangerous flight.

你必须逃离那个非凡的世界，并进行一次更危险的飞行。

Or sneak away, or something is catapulting you to take that ultimate boon and fight against that refusal, you're taking magic flight.

或者偷偷溜走，或者有什么东西弹射你去接受最终的恩惠并与拒绝作斗争，你正在进行魔法飞行。

Amazing.

惊人的。

And then there is...

然后还有...

Is it?

是吗？

It's assistance, I think.

我想这就是帮助。

Yeah, it's like assistance from a, like a special.

是的，这就像来自特殊人员的帮助。

Power or something, which could be your own or somebody else.

权力或其他东西，可能是你自己的，也可能是别人的。

All right, and then suddenly you're into the last three, which is crossing the return threshold into the ordinary world.

好吧，然后突然你就进入了最后三个，这就是跨过返回门槛进入凡夫世界的。

Master of two worlds where you finally...

两个世界的大师，你最终...

Realize, through help and or process, where you can hold these two opposing life experiences in place.

认识到，通过帮助和/或过程，你可以将这两种相反的生活经历保持在适当的位置。

And then the very last stage, 17, is freedom to live.

然后最后一个阶段，17，是生活的自由。

And when you can.

当你可以的时候。

I'm going to give you my little pet theory in a second.

稍后我将向您介绍我的小理论。

When you can work your way through those stages.

当你能够通过这些阶段时。

You can have the freedom to live.

你可以有生活的自由。

What I realized potentially happened to me, just my internal feelings about, you know, my coming in out of the military and back is.

我意识到可能发生在我身上的事情，只是我内心的感受，你知道，我从军队回来。

If you skip or you don't figure out how to deal with the refusal to return, and...

如果你跳过或者不知道如何处理拒绝返回的情况，并且......

And you just pick, I'm going to call it the next big thing.

你只需选择，我将称之为下一件大事。

You catapult yourself into a new cycle.

你将自己带入了一个新的循环。

And you never finish.

而你永远不会完成。

And one of two things has happened.

两件事之一已经发生。

You're either two people trapped in the ordinary world or you're one person trapped in two worlds.

你们要么是两个被困在平凡世界的人，要么是一个被困在两个世界的人。

I don't know which it is.

我不知道是哪一个。

It's either two worlds in one person or it's two people trying to live in one world.

要么是一个人有两个世界，要么是两个人试图生活在一个世界里。

But shit gets crazy, right?

但狗屎变得疯狂，对吧？

Because you just haven't done the cycle.

因为你还没有完成这个循环。

And it sounds very mischievous.

而且听起来很调皮。

But if you read A Hero with a Thousand Faces, you're like, this journey is not new.

但如果你读过《千面英雄》，你就会觉得，这段旅程并不新鲜。

Like this is thousands of years of very typical human cycle.

这就是数千年非常典型的人类循环。

Now, if we go back to the top of the circle, I'm going to try to screen through the first 10, which will be very obvious for Star Wars fans.

现在，如果我们回到圆圈的顶部，我将尝试筛选前 10 个，这对于星球大战迷来说非常明显。