Chris Voss: How to Succeed at Hard Conversations

‍Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Chris Voss.

今天我的客人是克里斯·沃斯。

Chris Voss spent more than two decades as an agent with the FBI, or Federal Bureau of Investigation, where he was a lead crisis negotiator and a member of the Joint Terrorist Task Force.

克里斯·沃斯 (Chris Voss) 在联邦调查局 (FBI) 担任特工二十多年，担任首席危机谈判代表和联合恐怖分子特别工作组成员。

Chris is also the author of a phenomenal best-selling book entitled "Never Split the Difference." In addition, he has taught courses in negotiation at Harvard, at Georgetown, and at the University of Southern California.

克里斯还是一本畅销书《永不分裂》的作者。此外，他还在哈佛大学、乔治城大学和南加州大学教授谈判课程。

As a world expert in all forms of negotiation, today, Chris teaches us about how to hold hard conversations where we are seeking particular outcomes, or perhaps where we don't know what the optimal outcome could be.

作为各种形式谈判的世界专家，克里斯今天教我们如何在我们寻求特定结果或可能不知道最佳结果是什么的情况下进行艰难的对话。

He talks about this in the context of business, in the context of relationships, including romantic relationships, but familial and work relationships as well.

他在商业、人际关系（包括浪漫关系，但也包括家庭和工作关系）的背景下谈论了这一点。

And he talks about how we should think about ourselves in the context of negotiations so that we can all arrive at the best possible outcomes.

他谈到我们应该如何在谈判的背景下思考自己，以便我们都能达成最好的结果。

Indeed, during today's episode, you will learn to pay attention to emotions, not just other people's emotions, but your own emotions, in order to determine whether or not you are processing the information you're hearing accurately, and, equally important, whether or not you are being heard accurately when you are in a discussion of any kind, but especially heated discussions.

事实上，在今天的节目中，你将学会关注情绪，不仅仅是别人的情绪，还有你自己的情绪，以确定你是否正在准确地处理你所听到的信息，同样重要的是，当你进行任何类型的讨论时，尤其是激烈的讨论时，你是否被准确地听到。

In addition, we discuss the role of both physical and mental stamina in the context of difficult conversations, negotiations, and decision making, because in the real-world context, oftentimes those can take place not just within a single conversation, but over the course of several days, or even several weeks, months, or years.

此外，我们还讨论了身体和精神耐力在困难的对话、谈判和决策中的作用，因为在现实世界中，这些通常不仅仅发生在一次对话中，而是持续几天，甚至几周、几个月或几年。

Chris also teaches us about deception, that is, how to determine if somebody is lying by asking particular types of probe questions, thanks to Chris Voss's both breadth and depth of expertise in the negotiation process that he gleaned during his more than two-decade service in the FBI, as well as his generosity in sharing that information.

克里斯还教给我们关于欺骗的知识，即如何通过提出特定类型的调查问题来确定某人是否在撒谎，这要归功于克里斯·沃斯在联邦调查局工作的二十多年中积累的谈判过程专业知识的广度和深度，以及他慷慨地分享这些信息。

By the end of today's episode, you will have an excellent understanding of what the negotiation process is really all about and how to better carry out those negotiations so that they can best serve you and others.

在今天的节目结束时，您将对谈判过程的真正含义以及如何更好地进行这些谈判有一个很好的理解，以便他们能够最好地为您和其他人服务。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Plunge.

我们的第一个赞助商是 Plunge。

Plunge makes what I believe is the most versatile at home self-cooling cold plunge for deliberate cold exposure.

Plunge 是我认为最通用的家用自冷却冷浸设备，可用于有意的寒冷暴露。

I've talked numerous times on this podcast about the many benefits of deliberate cold exposure.

我在这个播客中多次谈到了故意暴露在寒冷环境中的许多好处。

Deliberate cold exposure, especially deliberate cold exposure done up to the neck in water, can be used to achieve a number of important endpoints related to mental health, physical health, and performance.

故意冷暴露，特别是在水中进行故意冷暴露至颈部，可用于实现与心理健康、身体健康和表现相关的许多重要终点。

Plunge uses a powerful cooling filtration and sanitation unit to give you access to deliberate cold exposure in clean water whenever you want.

Plunge 使用强大的冷却过滤和卫生装置，让您可以随时在干净的水中享受冷的环境。

I've been using a plunge for more than two years now.

我已经使用跳水器两年多了。

I can tell you that it makes it very easy to get your deliberate cold exposure at home.

我可以告诉你，这让你很容易在家里故意暴露在寒冷中。

It doesn't require much cleaning.

它不需要太多清洁。

In fact, it's very easy to keep clean, which is essential.

事实上，保持清洁非常容易，这一点至关重要。

You don't want bacteria and other things growing in your cold plunge.

您不希望细菌和其他东西在冷水中生长。

Basically, everything about the Plunge is made easy so that anyone, including myself, can get their deliberate cold exposure on a regular basis at home.

基本上，关于 Plunge 的一切都很简单，这样任何人，包括我自己，都可以定期在家中进行有意的寒冷暴露。

If you're interested in getting a Plunge, you can go to plunge, spelled plunge.com/huberman and get $150 off your cold plunge.

如果您对 Plunge 感兴趣，您可以前往plunge（拼写为plunge.com/huberman），并可享受 150 美元的冷跳优惠。

Again, that's plunge.com/huberman for $150 off.

同样，在plum.com/huberman 上可享受 150 美元折扣。

Today's episode is also brought to us by ROKA.

今天的节目也是ROKA给我们带来的。

ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality I've spent a lifetime working on the biology the visual system, and I can tell you that your visual system has to contend with an enormous number of challenges in order for you to be able to see clearly in different environments.

ROKA 生产的眼镜和太阳镜质量绝对是最高的。我一生都在研究视觉系统生物学，我可以告诉您，您的视觉系统必须应对大量的挑战，以便您能够在不同的环境中清晰地看到东西。

ROKA understands the biology of the visual system and has designed their eyeglasses and sunglasses so that you always see with crystal clarity.

ROKA 了解视觉系统的生物学原理，并设计了眼镜和太阳镜，让您始终拥有清晰的视野。

Originally, their glasses were designed for performance, that is, for running and cycling and for sport, and indeed, they can still be used for performance.

最初，他们的眼镜是为了性能而设计的，即跑步、骑行、运动，事实上，它们仍然可以用于性能。

They won't slip off your face if you get sweaty.

如果您出汗，它们不会从您的脸上滑落。

They're extremely lightweight.

它们非常轻。

But I should mention that ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses come in some of the aesthetics more typically associated with performance glasses, like those cyborg-style glasses.

但我应该提到的是，ROKA 眼镜和太阳镜具有一些通常与功能眼镜相关的美学，例如那些半机械人风格的眼镜。

But they also have a number of styles that you would be perfectly comfortable wearing out to dinner or to work.

但它们也有多种款式，您穿着去吃饭或上班时会非常舒服。

I wear readers at night or when I drive, and I wear sunglasses during the day if I happen to be driving into bright light or outside, and it's just overwhelmingly bright.

我在晚上或开车时戴上阅读器，白天如果碰巧开车进入明亮的光线下或在室外，我会戴上太阳镜，而且光线非常明亮。

I do not wear sunglasses when I do my morning sunlight viewing to set my circadian rhythm, and I suggest that you do the same.

当我早上观看阳光以设定昼夜节律时，我不戴墨镜，我建议您也这样做。

If you'd like to try ROKA eyeglasses or sunglasses, you can go to ROKA, roka.com, and enter the code HUBERMAN to save 20% off your first order again, that's ROKA, roka.com.

如果您想尝试 ROKA 眼镜或太阳镜，您可以前往 ROKA, roka.com，输入代码 HUBERMAN 即可再次享受首笔订单 20% 的折扣，这就是 ROKA, roka.com。

And enter the code HUBERMAN at checkout.

并在结账时输入代码 HUBERMAN。

And now for my conversation with Chris Voss.

现在是我与克里斯·沃斯的对话。

Chris Voss, welcome.

克里斯·沃斯，欢迎。

Chris Voss: Andrew.

克里斯·沃斯：安德鲁。

Pleasure, man.

很高兴，伙计。

Andrew Huberman: I've been wanting to talk to you on record for a while.

Andrew Huberman： 我一直想和你进行一次有记录的谈话。

You are quite what we call in science "N-of-one," when somebody is a true sample size of one.

当某人是一个真实样本量时，你就是我们在科学中所说的“N-of-one”。

I realize that, yes, you are, because you have this incredible skill set from your time in the FBI, but you also have an incredible understanding and knowledge of how to communicate about that skill set so that people can glean useful information from it.

我意识到，是的，你是，因为你在联邦调查局工作期间拥有令人难以置信的技能，但你也对如何交流该技能有令人难以置信的理解和知识，以便人们可以从中收集有用的信息。

You are also the guy that I text or call every once in a while when I've run myself into a jam or when I think I might be in a jam.

当我遇到麻烦或我认为自己可能遇到麻烦时，我也会偶尔给你发短信或打电话。

And I won't reveal details, but you tell me whether or not things are okay.

我不会透露细节，但你告诉我事情是否顺利。

And fortunately, the last couple of times I reached out, you said, you're good.

幸运的是，最近几次我联系你时，你说，你很好。

So thank you.

所以谢谢你。

Chris Voss: Always happy to help, man.

Chris Voss：老兄，我总是很乐意提供帮助。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢。

Well, I have a lot of questions today, but what I'd like to start off talking about is negotiations take many forms, but if we could break those down into their broad categories, that will be useful.

嗯，我今天有很多问题，但我想首先讨论的是谈判有多种形式，但如果我们能将这些分成广泛的类别，那将会很有用。

But before we do that, I want to know about the mindset that you have when you go into a negotiation and whether or not there are any sort of practices.

但在此之前，我想了解一下您在进行谈判时的心态以及是否有任何实践。

I realize you've been in this profession a long time, and so it perhaps became reflexive to you at some point.

我意识到你从事这个职业已经很长时间了，所以在某些时候它可能成为你的本能反应。

But all of us at some point are going to go into negotiations, business negotiations, relationship negotiations, etc. Is there a process of getting one's mind and body right for a negotiation, shifting from more listening and less talking?

但我们所有人在某些时候都会进入谈判、商业谈判、关系谈判等。是否有一个过程可以让一个人的思想和身体适应谈判，从多听少说转变？

Are there any tools that you use on the regular that could be useful for us to keep in mind as we extend into the different categories of negotiations and ways to approach those negotiations?

当我们扩展到不同类别的谈判以及处理这些谈判的方法时，是否有您经常使用的任何工具可以帮助我们牢记？

Chris Voss: There can be a couple of different, first of all, just trying to figure out what's really going on is the real issue, and then how can I get an approach where I'm most likely to get the best possible outcome?

Chris Voss：可能有几种不同的方法，首先，只是想弄清楚到底发生了什么才是真正的问题，然后我怎样才能找到一种最有可能获得最佳结果的方法？

So there's always more than meets to eye, and there's a certain few cliches, but the real issue is there's always a better deal or there's no deal at all.

因此，总会有更多的事情发生，并且有一些陈词滥调，但真正的问题是总是有更好的交易，或者根本没有交易。

So first of all, my first thing is I want to find out whether or not there's a deal at all or whether or not it's a bad deal.

所以首先，我的第一件事是我想知道是否有协议，或者是否是一个糟糕的协议。

And then I'm going to walk away really fast because those are going to be a complete waste of time.

然后我会很快离开，因为那完全是浪费时间。

It's not a sin to not get the deal.

没有达成交易并不是罪过。

That's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal, or it's a sin to take a long time to get a bad deal.

花了很长时间才达成交易是一种罪过，或者花了很长时间才达成一笔糟糕的交易也是一种罪过。

So I want to know.

所以我想知道。

I'm going to try to figure out real quick whether or not, is there a cutthroat on the other side of the table?

我要尽快弄清楚桌子的另一边是否有凶手？

Is it somebody I could trust?

这是我可以信任的人吗？

I'm leaning a little more inclined to dealing with the difficult people now, as long as I don't give in.

我现在更倾向于与难相处的人打交道，只要我不屈服。

So I want to diagnose early on what the possibilities are.

所以我想尽早诊断出可能性是什么。

Now, if I'm curious, if I'm actually interested now, another aspect of the mindset is if I'm in a great mood, if I'm just going to be playful, a couple of really huge personal negotiation wins recently was when I was just trying to be playful.

现在，如果我很好奇，如果我现在真的感兴趣，心态的另一个方面是我是否心情很好，如果我只是想玩玩，最近几场真正巨大的个人谈判胜利就是当我只是想玩玩的时候。

I mean, I was in a great mood and I'm joking around.

我的意思是，我当时心情很好，还开着玩笑。

And great negotiation is not exciting.

伟大的谈判并不令人兴奋。

It's astonishing.

真是令人惊讶。

We're in conversations right now with a possible nonscripted TV show.

我们现在正在讨论一部可能的无脚本电视节目。

And so I was telling the producers, this ain't going to be "Real Housewives" to make this show properly.

所以我告诉制片人，这不会是“真正的家庭主妇”，以正确地制作这个节目。

There ain't going to be any screaming.

不会有任何尖叫声。

It's not going to be "Bar Rescue," where we're yelling at people.

这不会是“酒吧救援”，我们对人们大喊大叫。

We're not going to be "Hell's Kitchen," where we're yelling at people.

我们不会成为“地狱厨房”，在那里我们对人们大喊大叫。

It's never going to be exciting, but it is going to be astonishing.

它永远不会令人兴奋，但它会令人惊讶。

You'll get outcomes where suddenly you find yourself in a place like, what in the world?

当你突然发现自己处于这样的境地时，你会得到这样的结果，这到底是怎么回事？

How did that just happen?

这是怎么发生的？

And so I lose a suitcase in an airport the other day, and I'm walking into the lost luggage place and I'm in a great mood because I'm home and I'm happy to be home and I'm going to get a good night's sleep.

有一天，我在机场丢了一个手提箱，当我走进丢失行李的地方时，我的心情很好，因为我回到家了，我很高兴回到家，我会睡个好觉。

And even though it's late in the day, I'm just happy.

尽管已经很晚了，但我还是很高兴。

And I get ready to walk into the lost luggage store where these people are battered children.

我准备走进丢失的行李店，那里的人都是被虐待的孩子。

They know that you expect them to wave a magic wand and poof, your luggage is going to be there.

他们知道你希望他们挥舞魔杖，然后“噗”的一声，你的行李就会在那里。

So for whatever reason, and that's what I say when I walk in the door, this young lady says, how can I help you?

因此，无论出于何种原因，当我走进门时，这位年轻女士都会说，我能为您提供什么帮助？

Well, first of all, how you could help me is obvious because I'm in a lost luggage.

嗯，首先，你如何帮助我是显而易见的，因为我的行李丢失了。

There's only one reason I'm in here.

我来这里的原因只有一个。

So that's kind of a silly question.

所以这是一个愚蠢的问题。

And I go, I need you to wave a magic wand.

我走了，我需要你挥舞魔杖。

And she just laughs and she looks at me.

她只是笑了，看着我。

She ends up walking me out to the carousel.

她最终带我去了旋转木马。

Climbing up on the carousel, and she walks down a ramp.

她爬上旋转木马，走下坡道。

The luggage comes out of, and I guarantee you they're not supposed to do that.

行李出来了，我向你保证他们不应该这样做。

And she sticks her head in, she looks around, she comes back out, and I've never seen any of these people leave the office, let alone walk back to the carousel.

她把头伸进去，环顾四周，然后又出来，我从来没有见过这些人离开办公室，更不用说走回旋转木马了。

And she says, wait here.

她说，在这里等一下。

And she disappears into the bowels of the airport, which looks like a superhighway down there, right?

然后她消失在机场内部，那里看起来就像一条高速公路，对吧？

Like, God knows what it looks like underneath the airport.

就像，天知道机场下面是什么样子。

And pretty soon, the carousel starts up again, and my bag.

很快，旋转木马又启动了，我的包也启动了。

And another bag pops out.

然后另一个袋子弹出来。

This other poor schmuck is sitting there waiting, and I'm like, I have never seen anybody do this, ever.

另一个可怜的傻瓜坐在那里等待，我想，我从来没有见过有人这样做。

Normally they say, here's a number.

通常他们会说，这是一个数字。

We'll call you in 24 hours.

我们会在 24 小时内给您打电话。

It might show up at your house.

它可能会出现在你家。

And I look around at the ...

我环顾四周……

there's another young lady there.

那里还有另一位年轻女士。

And I say, please tell her thank you for me.

我说，请告诉她你替我谢谢你。

I got to go.

我得走了。

Because she doesn't come back out for, like, almost ten minutes.

因为她大约有十分钟没有回来。

And on my way out, she comes out the door, and she high-fives me, and she says, "how's that for waving a magic wand?" And that was the magic phrase.

在我出去的时候，她走出门，和我击掌，她说：“挥舞魔杖怎么样？”这就是神奇的短语。

And I never would have said it to her if I wasn't playful in a moment.

如果我当时不开玩笑的话，我永远不会对她说这句话。

And I've got a couple of others, like, when I was just playful, and I'm joking with people almost at my expense.

我还有其他一些，比如，当我只是好玩的时候，我几乎以我为代价与人开玩笑。

It's shocking.

太令人震惊了。

Astonishing what you can get people to do if you hit them the right way.

如果你以正确的方式打动人们，你可以让人们做出令人惊讶的事情。

Andrew Huberman: So interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太有趣了。

I wonder what it tapped into.

我想知道它利用了什么。

But it sounds like it might have tapped into her sense that everybody's always asking me for a magic wand kind of ability, but finally somebody just said it directly, and that would be kind of fun to actually play that role, because normally they're restricted to their keyboard and their phone.

但听起来这可能是利用了她的感觉，每个人总是要求我拥有魔杖之类的能力，但最后有人直接说了出来，真正扮演这个角色会很有趣，因为通常他们只能使用键盘和手机。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

On the opposite side of that spectrum, if ever you're feeling tense, stressed, jet lagged, angry, I can think about negotiations where people are trying to keep their egos in check.

另一方面，如果你感到紧张、有压力、时差反应、愤怒，我可以想想人们试图控制自我的谈判。

They want to be right.

他们希望自己是对的。

Their breakups, negotiations.

他们分手，谈判。

There's not necessarily romantic breakups that could include that, but also professional breakups, the dissolution of a contract or something like that.

不一定是浪漫分手，也可能是职业分手、解除合同或类似的事情。

Do you ever have to check yourself, like, okay, I imagine being calm is better than not being calm for most all things.

你是否需要检查一下自己，比如，好吧，我想在大多数事情上保持冷静比不冷静要好。

Do you have a process of doing that?

你有这样做的过程吗？

You seem like a pretty steady guy.

看来你是个很稳重的人。

I've never seen you.

我从来没有见过你。

Chris Voss: Overall, I'm pretty steady.

Chris Voss：总的来说，我很稳定。

Well, the late-night FM DJ voice that, I'm not sure that I coined the phrase, but kind of famous for to calm you down also calms me down.

嗯，深夜 FM DJ 的声音，我不确定我创造了这个短语，但以让你平静下来而闻名，也让我平静下来。

So if I get bent out of shape and conversation gets heated, I'll switch into that voice with the intention of calming you down, because that's the hostage negotiator's voice.

因此，如果我身体不舒服并且谈话变得激烈，我会切换到那种声音，目的是让你平静下来，因为那是人质谈判代表的声音。

But it'll calm me down, too.

但这也会让我平静下来。

Like intentionally going to that voice tamps down the negative emotions, which I'm convinced make me dumber in the moment, interfere with my capacity to process information.

就像故意去听那个声音可以抑制负面情绪，我确信负面情绪会让我在那一刻变得更笨，干扰我处理信息的能力。

Got reasons for that?

有理由吗？

Layman's reasons?

外行人的理由？

No. Scientific, academically rigorous studies that have been in any journals.

不。任何期刊上发表过的科学、学术严谨的研究。

Andrew Huberman: Well, after you're done, I'm going to tell you something that will perhaps be astonishing to you as to why there's real neuroscience behind that late-night FM DJ voice having an impact on other people's brains.

Andrew Huberman：好吧，在你完成之后，我将告诉你一些可能会让你感到惊讶的事情，即为什么深夜 FM DJ 声音会对其他人的大脑产生影响，背后有真正的神经科学。

Chris Voss: Yeah, and I'll do that because it calms me down.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，我会这样做，因为它能让我平静下来。

Now, if I can make the shift.

现在，如果我能做出转变的话。

The hard part is a shift into a positive mindset, if I can make that shift, but I can only make it from a calm voice.

困难的部分是转变为积极的心态，如果我能做到的话，但我只能用平静的声音来做到这一点。

I also think the emotions are kind of a rock-paper-scissors sequence.

我还认为情感是一种石头剪刀布的序列。

I don't think you can go from sadness to elation, directly sad, depressed, down.

我不认为你可以从悲伤到兴高采烈，直接悲伤、沮丧、沮丧。

I think there's something to getting angry to pull you out of sadness.

我认为生气可以让你摆脱悲伤。

And I think if you're angry, you've got to go to calm next.

我认为如果你生气了，接下来你必须冷静下来。

But if I can get out of anger and go to calm, then I can say something to myself.

但如果我能摆脱愤怒并平静下来，那么我就能对自己说些什么。

Like, the reality is, this is a luxury problem, or, I was in a negotiation with a counterpart that I knew was deceiving, lying to me.

就像，现实是，这是一个奢侈的问题，或者，我正在与一个我知道在欺骗、对我撒谎的对方进行谈判。

And I remember saying to myself, I'm lucky to be in this negotiation.

我记得对自己说，我很幸运能够参与这次谈判。

I mean, they wouldn't be trying to hustle me if we weren't really good, if we didn't have a product that was phenomenal, I wouldn't be targeted at all.

我的意思是，如果我们不是很优秀，如果我们没有出色的产品，他们就不会试图催促我，我根本不会成为目标。

So I'm actually lucky to be in this conversation.

所以我真的很幸运能够参加这次谈话。

So if I can make that next shift emotionally, then I'm good.

因此，如果我能在情感上做出下一个转变，那么我就很好。

The hard part is making those shifts.

困难的部分是做出这些转变。

Andrew Huberman: I'm going to just share with you what I learned recently about sound and emotion.

Andrew Huberman：我将与您分享我最近学到的有关声音和情感的知识。

I'm researching an episode on music in the brain.

我正在研究关于大脑中音乐的一集。

Fascinating topic.

令人着迷的话题。

Believe it or not, there's a lot known, and the auditory system has this property where, of course, there are neurons, nerve cells that respond to different frequencies of sound, low frequency, deeper tones, and high frequency squeals and that sort of thing.

不管你相信与否，有很多已知的东西，听觉系统具有这种特性，当然，有神经元、神经细胞对不同频率的声音、低频、更深的音调和高频尖叫声等做出反应。

Okay, that's pretty straightforward, just like we have neurons that respond to different colors or different angles of light in the room.

好吧，这非常简单，就像我们的神经元对房间中不同颜色或不同角度的光线做出反应一样。

But what I learned and I confirmed with a good friend of mine who's an auditory neuroscientist and neurosurgeon.

但我所了解到的情况并得到了我的一位好朋友的证实，他是一位听觉神经科学家和神经外科医生。

His name is Eddie Chang, who was a guest on this podcast previously.

他的名字叫Eddie Chang，之前是这个播客的嘉宾。

Is that low frequency sounds of the sort that your voice is, that late-night FM DJ voice, are responded to in the brain by neurons.

你的声音、深夜 FM DJ 声音之类的低频声音是由大脑中的神经元做出反应的吗？

No surprise there.

这并不奇怪。

But the frequency that those neurons fire is also low frequency.

但这些神经元放电的频率也是低频的。

In other words, when you speak in your low voice, the other person's brain hears that and starts firing in a low frequency tone.

换句话说，当你用低声说话时，对方的大脑会听到并开始发出低频音调。

In other words, it entrains to your voice, not just the timing, but it's actually like you're essentially playing an emotional piano down in the low keys of their mind.

换句话说，它会影响你的声音，不仅仅是时间，而且实际上就像你在他们内心深处弹奏一架情感钢琴。

Now, when you go up to the high frequencies, the neurons can't follow that high frequency.

现在，当你达到高频时，神经元无法跟随那个高频。

So there's something special about low frequency sound that actually changes the emotional tone of the people that hear that low frequency sound.

因此，低频声音有一些特殊之处，它实际上改变了听到低频声音的人的情绪基调。

This is wild, right.

这太疯狂了，对吧。

Of course, the content of the words matters, too.

当然，言语的内容也很重要。

But anyway, there's real neuroscience to support the voice that you were endowed with and that you employed for your work.

但无论如何，有真正的神经科学来支持你被赋予的声音以及你在工作中所使用的声音。

Chris Voss: Well, then also, the point then, too, is the other side is not making a choice.

克里斯·沃斯：嗯，那么，重点是另一方没有做出选择。

It's an involuntary reaction.

这是一种不自觉的反应。

Andrew Huberman: That's right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。

This is not something one can override, except by perhaps plugging their ears.

这不是人们可以推翻的事情，除非堵住耳朵。

Right.

正确的。

If they're hearing that, their mind is getting shifted toward a state of low frequency oscillation, which is one of more calm.

如果他们听到这个，他们的思想就会转向低频振荡状态，这是一种更加平静的状态。

That's a real thing.

这是真实的事情。

And were you to have a high, squeaky Chipmunks voice, you might not have been the negotiator.

如果你的声音像花栗鼠一样高亢、吱吱作响，你可能就不是谈判代表了。

You would.

你会的。

Although, who knows?

虽然，谁知道呢？

Maybe there'd be another tactic there.

也许还有另一种策略。

I mean, I think back to the, I guess it was during one of the Gulf War campaigns.

我的意思是，我回想起来，我猜那是在海湾战争的一场战役中。

Where weren't they trying to squeeze out Saddam and some of his people by playing like, Milli Vanilli at high volume for hours and hours?

他们不是试图通过像米利·瓦尼利那样连续几个小时高音量播放来排挤萨达姆和他的一些人吗？

Is that tactic actually used?

这个战术真的用过吗？

Chris Voss: So that was Panama when they were trying to get Noriega.

克里斯·沃斯：巴拿马当时正试图引进诺列加。

Andrew Huberman: I'm only a few countries over.

Andrew Huberman：我只差几个国家。

Chris Voss: I got the trivia I was telling you before and the wacky, fascinating, useless information around terrorism and stuff like that.

克里斯·沃斯：我得到了之前告诉过你的琐事，以及有关恐怖主义之类的古怪、迷人、无用的信息。

I tried that at Panama and for whatever, the military guys, they were playing music and sounds.

我在巴拿马尝试过，无论什么，军人，他们都在播放音乐和声音。

And then also among the many stupid things that the FBI did at Waco, then late at night, they tried that in the ...

然后，联邦调查局在韦科做了许多愚蠢的事情，然后深夜，他们在......

It was just, that was one of the things that the hostage negotiators were adamantly against, but they got overruled by on-site command.

只是，这是人质谈判人员极力反对的事情之一，却被现场指挥否决了。

Among the many stupid things that were done at Waco, that was also done at Waco.

在韦科做过的许多愚蠢的事情中，这也是在韦科发生的。

It was stupid.

这太愚蠢了。

It's counterproductive.

这是适得其反的。

Hostage negotiators were always against it.

人质谈判代表始终反对。

Andrew Huberman: So for those of you who don't remember Waco.

Andrew Huberman：对于那些不记得韦科的人来说。

Waco is Branch Davidians, David Koresh, right?

韦科是大卫教派，大卫·科雷什，对吗？

Chris Voss: Yeah.

克里斯·沃斯：是的。

There was a Netflix series that was out about it recently.

Netflix 最近推出了一部关于此的连续剧。

That's fair.

这很公平。

About how it went down.

关于它是如何下降的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Sad ending.

悲伤的结局。

He eventually set the building ablaze, killed himself and everybody else.

他最终放火烧毁了大楼，杀死了自己和其他人。

Chris Voss: People inside set the building on fire.

克里斯·沃斯：里面的人放火烧了大楼。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Including a lot of children perished, including some children.

包括很多孩子都死了，包括一些孩子。

Chris Voss: There are some FBI agents that have still not gotten over that.

克里斯·沃斯：有些联邦调查局特工还没有克服这个问题。

Andrew Huberman: Like to talk about some different types of negotiations.

Andrew Huberman：喜欢谈论一些不同类型的谈判。

Oftentimes, I think because you're a former FBI negotiator, antiterrorist task force, this kind of thing, we tend to focus on the negative negotiations.

通常，我认为因为你是前联邦调查局谈判代表、反恐特别工作组之类的人，所以我们倾向于关注消极谈判。

Right.

正确的。

Get the hostages away, and we'll talk about that stuff.

把人质带走，我们再讨论这件事。

Breakups, business deals that have gone wrong, people lying, cheating.

分手、商业交易出错、人们撒谎、欺骗。

What about negotiations that are benevolent?

善意的谈判又如何呢？

Let's say that two people want to come to a true win-win around what they each see to be their best interests in, let's say, friendship.

假设两个人都希望围绕他们各自认为最有利的事情（比如说友谊）实现真正的双赢。

Two friends taking a trip together, vacation.

两个朋友一起旅行、度假。

Who's going to pay for what?

谁来支付什么费用？

Who's going to pay up front?

谁来预先付款？

Are people going to pay each other back?

人们会互相偿还吗？

Or a romantic relationship?

还是恋爱关系？

Two people are considering fusing finances to some extent or moving in together.

两个人正在考虑在某种程度上融合财务或同居。

What sorts of questions should people be asking themselves prior to those negotiations?

在谈判之前人们应该问自己什么样的问题？

In particular, is it very important that people know exactly what they want going into a negotiation?

特别是，人们在谈判中确切地知道自己想要什么，这一点非常重要吗？

Or.

或者。

I can recall many times when I've gone into life circumstances knowing I wanted a certain set of feelings or outcomes, but not being extremely specific about, I want this salary.

我记得很多时候，当我进入生活环境时，知道我想要某种感觉或结果，但不是非常具体，我想要这份薪水。

I want to live in a west-facing house on this particular location.

我想住在这个特定位置的一栋朝西的房子里。

An exploration of potentials, I think can also take the form of negotiation.

对潜力的探索，我认为也可以采取谈判的形式。

So how should people think about approaching benevolent negotiations, like, where we're not talking about something tragic happening, if it doesn't go through, it might hurt, it might be a little bit high friction, but let's talk about how to get to a win-win.

那么，人们应该如何考虑进行善意的谈判，比如，我们不是在谈论发生悲剧的事情，如果谈判没有成功，可能会造成伤害，可能会有一点高摩擦，但让我们谈谈如何实现双赢。

Chris Voss: Yeah, well, there's a couple of interesting things there.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，有一些有趣的事情。

First of all, the phrase win-win, because win-win is just great collaboration.

首先，双赢这个词，因为双赢就是伟大的合作。

I mean, in point of fact, it should be win-win, which might only be emotional win-win.

我的意思是，实际上应该是双赢，可能只是情感上的双赢。

Now, the phraseology win-win.

现在，用语是双赢。

I know that if someone opens a negotiation with me and they say right off the bat, look, I want to do a win-win deal with you, that correlates extremely highly with someone who's trying to pick my pocket.

我知道，如果有人与我展开谈判，并且立即说，看，我想与你达成双赢的协议，这与试图扒我口袋的人高度相关。

So if you use that phrase in the first five minutes, I already know where you're coming from.

因此，如果您在前五分钟内使用该短语，我就已经知道您来自哪里。

You're trying to get me to drop my guards.

你试图让我放松警惕。

You win, I lose.

你赢了，我输了。

This came up on an Instagram post I put up recently, which is essentially, watch out for the person who says win-win.

这是我最近在 Instagram 上发布的一篇帖子中提到的，本质上是要小心那些说双赢的人。

Now, I didn't say win-win is bad.

现在，我并没有说双赢是不好的。

I said, watch out for the person that says it.

我说，小心说这话的人。

Also, you got to be cautious.

另外，你必须小心谨慎。

If you're like, some of the win-win mindset, then people set themselves up to just get slaughtered by the person who's expressing a desire for win-win and looking to pick their pocket.

如果你有双赢的心态，那么人们就会被那些表达双赢愿望并想掏腰包的人屠杀。

Like, if I feel win-win in my heart, you go, let's do a win-win deal.

就像，如果我心里觉得双赢，你就去吧，我们做一笔双赢的​​交易。

If I don't watch it, I'm like, okay, what do you want?

如果我不看，我会说，好吧，你想要什么？

And then I find myself giving away the store.

然后我发现自己放弃了这家商店。

So there's a lot behind the win-win phraseology that you have to have a complete understanding of.

因此，双赢措辞背后有很多你必须完全理解的内容。

In point of fact, both sides should feel good about the outcome.

事实上，双方都应该对这个结果感到满意。

And isn't that the definition of win-win?

这不就是双赢的定义吗？

Well, kind of, sort of, but it's how they feel about it more than really what they got.

嗯，有点，有点，但这更多的是他们的感受，而不是他们真正得到的。

So in a benevolent negotiation among friends, Where are we going to go to eat?

于是朋友之间善意的商量，我们去哪里吃饭呢？

Where are we going on vacation?

我们去哪儿度假？

What route are we going to take?

我们要走什么路线？

People really just want to be heard out more than anything else, which operationally seems to be.

人们真的只是想听到自己的声音，这在操作上似乎是这样。

I don't understand how it's going to make any difference.

我不明白这会有什么不同。

Makes all the difference in the world.

让世界变得不同。

And what's the best way for somebody to feel heard out?

让某人感到被倾听的最佳方式是什么？

Well, I'm going to start out by telling you, describing to you, not telling you, but describing to you what my best guess is on your perspective, because it's really calibrating me actually finding out what your position is.

好吧，我首先要告诉你，向你描述，不是告诉你，而是从你的角度向你描述我的最佳猜测，因为这确实使我能够真正了解你的立场。

And the only way I can find out what your position actually is, I'm going to increase you telling me if I start taking a guess at it first, because you're immediately, right away, immediately going to tell me either I'm right or I'm wrong, you're going to correct me.

我能知道你的实际立场的唯一方法是，如果我首先开始猜测，我会告诉你，因为你会立即、马上、立即告诉我，要么我是对的，要么我错了，你会纠正我。

Correction is a satisfying thing to do.

纠正是一件令人满足的事情。

And you're going to be much more candid with me if you're correcting me than if I'm asking you, and you'll feel good about correcting me.

如果你纠正我，你会比我问你更坦诚，而且你会因为纠正我而感觉良好。

So there's all these great emotional lubricants to me getting you to correct me.

所以，所有这些伟大的情感润滑剂对我来说都是让你纠正我的错误。

So I'm going to start out by saying, Here's what I think you're thinking.

所以我首先要说的是，我想你是这么想的。

Here's how I think you're approaching this.

我认为你是这样处理这个问题的。

Here's what I think you're wanting out of this, not what you should be, but what you probably are based on your perspective.

我认为这就是你想要的，不是你应该成为什么，而是基于你的观点，你可能是什么。

And that's going to accelerate the conversation exponentially.

这将会以指数方式加速对话。

Like it's ridiculous how much faster things are going to go.

事情进展得更快，这真是可笑。

And then it becomes both an information gathering and a rapport-building process simultaneously instead of separately, which is what makes this approach faster, even though it seems more indirect.

然后它就成为一个信息收集和建立融洽关系的过程，同时而不是分开，这就是使这种方法更快的原因，尽管它看起来更间接。

So if we're getting ready to, let's say you and I are going to take a car trip to San Francisco from here, and I'm going to say, all right, so my guess is you want to take the most direct route because you hate wasting time.

所以，如果我们准备好，假设你和我要从这里开车去旧金山，我会说，好吧，所以我猜你想走最直接的路线，因为你讨厌浪费时间。

And you're probably going to say to, No, no, I want to go up the Pacific Coast highway because this beautiful stretch of country, I realize it's going to be a waste of time if we go up the Pacific Coast because we got to jump off it at some point.

你可能会说，不，不，我想走太平洋海岸高速公路，因为这片美丽的国家，我意识到如果我们走太平洋海岸那就是浪费时间，因为我们必须在某个时候跳下它。

But I really want to see the scenery, have ...

但我真的很想看看风景，有...

I've taken a guess on what you want and you're going to come back real quick and correct me.

我已经猜到了你想要什么，你很快就会回来纠正我。

And then maybe I'm thinking time on the trip, but I've forgotten how beautiful it is to roll up the coast.

然后也许我正在考虑旅行的时间，但我忘记了沿着海岸行驶是多么美丽。

And so when you throw that out, I'll be like, oh, yeah, it is a beautiful ride, and we might not get another shot.

所以当你把它扔掉时，我会说，哦，是的，这是一次美丽的旅程，我们可能不会再有机会了。

Who knows what's going to know now that we're having a conversation, I'd rather run up the Pacific Coast highway before we go inland and make the trip.

谁知道我们现在正在交谈，我宁愿先沿着太平洋海岸高速公路行驶，然后再去内陆旅行。

And that's how we get to, we collaborate for a better outcome, maybe a better idea than what I had in mind in the first place.

这就是我们的方式，我们合作以获得更好的结果，也许是比我最初的想法更好的想法。

Andrew Huberman: I love that because what you just described is hypothesis testing.

Andrew Huberman：我喜欢这一点，因为你刚才描述的是假设检验。

Chris Voss: Yes.

克里斯·沃斯：是的。

Andrew Huberman: It's the way scientists are trained.

Andrew Huberman：这就是科学家接受培训的方式。

Many people don't know this, but they teach us in science not to ask questions, but to start with a question like how does the brain develop or something?

很多人不知道这一点，但是他们在科学上教导我们不要提出问题，而是从一个问题开始，比如大脑是如何发育的或者其他什么？

And then you say a hypothesis and you test hypotheses, and then you figure out if they're right or wrong.

然后你提出一个假设并测试假设，然后你就会弄清楚它们是对还是错。

And that takes you through a set of decision trees and you eventually get at what you hope is some core truth, and hopefully others arrive there as well and you get a consensus.

这会带你浏览一组决策树，最终你会得到你所希望的一些核心事实，并希望其他人也能到达那里并且你能达成共识。

So I love the idea of hypothesis testing.

所以我喜欢假设检验的想法。

In fact, when you said take the most direct route from where we are now in Los Angeles to San Francisco, I like to take 101, not the 5.

事实上，当你说从我们现在的洛杉矶到旧金山采取最直接的路线时，我喜欢乘坐 101 路，而不是 5 路。

The 5 is faster.

5的速度更快。

So I immediately think, but I like 101.

所以我立刻想，但我喜欢101。

First of all, there are a couple of really great taco and hamburger spots along the way that I used to stop with my bulldog.

首先，沿途有几个非常棒的炸玉米饼和汉堡店，我曾经和我的斗牛犬一起停下来。

And yet also you get to see the coast, and it makes those extra two hours completely worth it.

而且您还可以看到海岸，这让额外的两个小时完全值得。

And so you're exactly right in that working through the decision tree doesn't necessarily mean presuming that the hypothesis is right.

所以你是完全正确的，通过决策树进行工作并不一定意味着假设假设是正确的。

It sounds like you'd be equally okay with the hypothesis being wrong, because really what you're trying to do is just learn.

听起来你同样可以接受假设是错误的，因为你真正想做的只是学习。

And in learning, set up this collaboration.

在学习中，建立这种协作。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Chris Voss: A couple of things.

克里斯·沃斯：有几件事。

First of all, when you talk about hypothesis, when my son Brandon was involved in a company, he's out on his own now, but he used to always say, hypothesis test your hypothesis.

首先，当你谈到假设时，当我儿子布兰登参与一家公司时，他现在已经独立了，但他过去总是说，假设检验你的假设。

He always used that term.

他一直用这个词。

And then even now, if we were talking about it and you just said you knew some hot dog and hamburger places, I'd be like, holy cow, I didn't even know that.

即使现在，如果我们正在谈论它，而你只是说你知道一些热狗和汉堡包的地方，我会说，天啊，我什至都不知道。

Yeah, I want to check those places out.

是的，我想去那些地方看看。

So that's how you discover new stuff in a conversation.

这就是你在对话中发现新事物的方式。

Andrew Huberman: I love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。

And also, I'm sure people are noting to not say the words win-win when approaching any kind of negotiation.

而且，我确信人们会注意到在进行任何形式的谈判时不要说双赢这个词。

What do you think it is about those little catchphrases that signal lack of authenticity or trustworthiness?

您认为那些表明缺乏真实性或可信度的小标语意味着什么？

Because you could imagine that somebody, I come to you and say, hey, Chris, let's do some collaborative thing for social media, for podcast, and this is going to be a win-win for both of us.

因为你可以想象，有人，我来找你说，嘿，克里斯，让我们为社交媒体、播客做一些合作，这对我们双方来说都是双赢的。

Now, I know to never say that with you, but you could imagine that somebody really means that.

现在，我知道永远不要对你这么说，但你可以想象有人真的这么想。

But for you, it sounds like it's a flag that they're trying to pull one over.

但对你来说，这听起来就像是一面他们试图拉倒的旗帜。

Chris Voss: It correlates really strongly with the people that are definitely trying to cut your throat.

克里斯·沃斯：这与那些肯定想割断你喉咙的人有很强的相关性。

And I've had them admit that to me candidly.

我已经让他们向我坦白地承认了这一点。

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

Chris Voss: I've experienced it.

克里斯·沃斯：我经历过。

If somebody throws win-win out early, to me, I'll say, all right, I think I know where this is going, but let me explore it.

如果有人很早就提出双赢，对我来说，我会说，好吧，我想我知道这是怎么回事，但让我探索一下。

And they'll say, Yeah, this great opportunity for you, that's another tell.

他们会说，是的，这对你来说是一个很好的机会，这是另一个说法。

And we're going to put you in a room with all these billionaires, and there's going to be all this opportunity for you if you just come in and speak, and we don't have a budget.

我们将把你安排在一个房间里，和所有这些亿万富翁在一起，如果你进来演讲，就会有很多机会，而我们没有预算。

Andrew Huberman: Well, I've gotten that one before.

Andrew Huberman：嗯，我以前就收到过这个。

The world will just work out in your favor because it's going to work out in my favor.

世界只会对你有利，因为它也会对我有利。

Chris Voss: Right, exactly right.

克里斯·沃斯：对，完全正确。

Andrew Huberman: I've been on the receiving end of those offers many a time.

Andrew Huberman：我曾多次收到这些邀请。

Fascinating.

迷人。

Conversely, what sorts of openers do you think establish the best rapport and benevolent discovery of a topic?

相反，您认为什么样的开场白才能建立最佳的融洽关系和善意的主题发现？

Chris Voss: Well, what I'm saying correlates real strongly with people I want to do business with.

克里斯·沃斯：嗯，我所说的与我想与之做生意的人密切相关。

If they figured out something that they know is valuable for me and they've just done it and they've just offered it, like right off the bat, no strings attached.

如果他们发现了一些他们知道对我有价值的东西，他们就这样做了，并且直接提供了它，就像立即提供的那样，没有任何附加条件。

They found a way to drop something on me that's valuable.

他们找到了一种方法来给我扔一些有价值的东西。

They didn't approach me with their hand out.

他们没有向我伸出手。

They approached me with some sort of generosity.

他们以某种慷慨的态度来接近我。

Like a friend of mine, Joe Polish, runs this outfit called Genius Network.

就像我的一个朋友 Joe Polish 经营着一家名为 Genius Network 的机构。

Joe, he says, life gives to the giver.

乔，他说，生命给予给予者。

Joe did a bunch of favors for me before I ever joined, and he was trying to help me out and get my book sold, and he asked me to come in and speak, and he emphasized my book on his podcast and in different conversations.

在我加入之前，乔帮了我很多忙，他试图帮助我，让我的书卖出去，他邀请我进来演讲，他在他的播客和不同的对话中强调了我的书。

And I finally paid the fee to join because he had done so much for me.

我最终支付了加入费用，因为他为我做了很多。

There's not much Joe could ask me for right now because he's done so much for me that he gets a blanket.

乔现在不能向我要求太多，因为他为我做了很多事情，以至于他得到了一条毯子。

Pretty much, yes, right away.

几乎，是的，马上。

What do you want?

你想要什么？

What do you need?

你需要什么？

Because he's just generous.

因为他只是慷慨。

And the generosity approach universally, I'm seeing a lot of really successful people that lead by generosity.

慷慨是普遍的做法，我看到很多真正成功的人都是以慷慨为领导的。

And so if you start out, if you give me a five-star review of the book on Amazon, no strings attached or anything like that, goes a long, long way to somebody who wants to establish a long-term relationship collaboration.

因此，如果你一开始，如果你在亚马逊上给我对这本书的五星级评论，不附加任何条件或类似的东西，对于想要建立长期合作关系的人来说会有很长的路要走。

Andrew Huberman: When I first opened my laboratory in 2011, I had a technician at the time who had been a technician for a lot of years.

Andrew Huberman：2011 年我第一次开设实验室时，当时有一名技术人员，他已经当了很多年的技术人员。

And there's this culture in science of people borrowing things from laboratories and not giving them back or breaking them.

科学界有一种文化，人们从实验室借东西而不归还或破坏它们。

These can be little things, like a small instrument or a forceps.

这些可以是小东西，例如小仪器或镊子。

But as a student or postdoc, these are the things that you covet, like a really nice pair of forceps.

但作为一名学生或博士后，这些是你所渴望的东西，比如一把非常漂亮的镊子。

It's like a great thing.

这就像一件伟大的事情。

You drop them once, they're not good anymore, by the way.

顺便说一句，一旦你把它们扔掉，它们就不再好了。

It's like you have to treat them with respect.

就像你必须尊重他们一样。

Surgical tools have to be treated with respect.

必须尊重手术工具。

These are very fine instruments, and people used to come by our lab all the time and borrow stuff from us, and he'd always lend it out.

这些都是非常好的仪器，以前经常有人来我们实验室借东西，他总是借出去。

And I was like, what are you doing?

我当时想，你在做什么？

But anytime I went to go borrow something, he'd say, do not borrow anything from anybody else, because then we're going to owe them.

但每当我去借东西时，他都会说，不要向别人借任何东西，因为那样我们就会欠他们的。

Right now, everybody owes us everything.

现在，每个人都欠我们一切。

And I was like, you're running up our budget giving away these instruments.

我当时想，你赠送这些仪器已经耗尽了我们的预算。

They come back with the forceps dented and stuff.

他们回来时镊子已经凹了，还有什么东西。

And he said, just trust me, this is the way to do it.

他说，相信我，这就是做到这一点的方法。

And I don't recall ever, quote unquote, cashing in on any of that.

我不记得曾经，引用不引用，兑现过任何这样的事情。

But he was exactly right when I eventually decided to move institutions.

但当我最终决定转移机构时，他是完全正确的。

We had given away so much and we had asked for so very little, maybe nothing, that when you leave a place, typically there can be a little bad blood.

我们付出了太多，而我们要求的却很少，甚至什么都没有，所以当你离开一个地方时，通常会产生一些不和。

And all we got was sorry to see you go kind of stuff.

看到你离开，我们感到很遗憾。

Had it been me, I would have been in kind of an exchange of oh, we ask for things, we give things.

如果是我，我会进行某种交换，哦，我们索取东西，我们给予东西。

It's kind of a neighborhood.

这有点像一个街区。

I grew up in a neighborhood where you'd borrow eggs or milk from the neighbor.

我在一个你可以向邻居借鸡蛋或牛奶的社区长大。

Remember those days?

还记得那些日子吗？

I don't know if people do that any longer, but I think it falls well into what you're describing, that when you just do things for people out of goodness, then sure, you sort of have a history where you could return to that they owe you.

我不知道人们是否还会这样做，但我认为这很符合你所描述的，当你只是出于善意为人们做事时，那么当然，你有一段历史，你可以偿还他们欠你的钱。

But there's also just something good about just doing things out of goodness and also not asking for so much and expecting people to provide that.

但出于善良而做事，而不要求太多并期望人们提供，也有一些好处。

So I love that and I love providing good reviews for things I like on the phone.

所以我喜欢这一点，也喜欢在手机上为我喜欢的东西提供好评。

When the airline, we don't do this anymore, we book our own flights.

当航空公司时，我们不再这样做，我们预订自己的航班。

But anytime I get help on the phone and if it's really great help, I'll say, how can I help?

但每当我通过电话获得帮助时，如果确实有很大帮助，我会说，我能提供什么帮助吗？

And they'll say, oh, it would mean a lot if you would send an email to my business just saying I did a great job or something like that.

他们会说，哦，如果您向我的公司发送电子邮件只是说我做得很好或类似的话，那就意义重大了。

And I actually really enjoy doing that.

我真的很喜欢这样做。

So I love the points you're making because they're very actionable.

所以我喜欢你提出的观点，因为它们非常可行。

As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.

你们很多人都知道，自 2012 年以来我一直每天服用 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。

AG1 is a vitamin-mineral-probiotic drink that's designed to meet all of your foundational nutrition needs.

AG1 是一种维生素-矿物质-益生菌饮料，旨在满足您的所有基本营养需求。

Now, of course, I try to get enough servings of vitamins and minerals through whole food sources that include vegetables and fruits every day, but oftentimes I simply can't get enough servings.

当然，现在我尝试每天通过包括蔬菜和水果在内的天然食物来源获取足够的维生素和矿物质，但通常我根本无法获取足够的份量。

But with AG1, I'm sure to get enough vitamins and minerals and the probiotics that I need, and it also contains adaptogens to help buffer stress.

但有了 AG1，我肯定能获得足够的维生素和矿物质以及我需要的益生菌，而且它还含有适应原来帮助缓冲压力。

Simply put, I always feel better when I take AG1.

简而言之，当我服用 AG1 时，我总是感觉更好。

I have more focus and energy, and I sleep better.

我的注意力更加集中，精力更加充沛，睡眠质量也更好。

And it also happens to taste great.

而且它的味道也很棒。

For all these reasons, whenever I'm asked if you could take just one supplement, what would it be?

出于所有这些原因，每当我被问到是否可以只服用一种补充剂时，我会选择什么？

I answer AG1.

我回答AG1。

If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。

They will give you 5 free travel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3 K2.

他们将为您提供 5 个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2 供应。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。

Shifting slightly to the more, let's call them high friction negotiations or the types of negotiations where there's the potential for a truly bad outcome.

稍微转向更多，让我们将其称为高摩擦谈判或有可能产生真正糟糕结果的谈判类型。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: I know you've been asked this before, but some of our listeners are going to be learning about you for the first time.

Andrew Huberman：我知道您以前曾被问过这个问题，但我们的一些听众将是第一次了解您。

Do you recall of the many negotiations that you did while in the FBI, any one particular negotiation that felt like, if this doesn't work out, this is really catastrophic?

您是否还记得您在联邦调查局期间进行的许多谈判，其中任何一项特定的谈判都让人感觉，如果不成功，这真的是灾难性的？

And would you be willing to share that with.

您愿意与我们分享吗？

Chris Voss: I learned, you know, they try to teach us early on that not everything's going to work out.

克里斯·沃斯：我了解到，你知道，他们很早就试图告诉我们，并非一切都会成功。

And the second negotiation I had in the Philippines, the first one, young man named Jeff Schilling, was grabbed by terrorist group Abu Sayyaf, and he ended up walking away because we stall the bad guys long enough that sometimes if you can slow it down, you wait for something good to fall out of the sky, and it will.

我在菲律宾进行的第二次谈判，第一个谈判，名叫杰夫·席林的年轻人，被恐怖组织阿布沙耶夫抓住，他最终走开了，因为我们拖延了坏人足够长的时间，有时如果你能放慢速度，你就会等待一些好东西从天而降，它会的。

And that ended up happening in that case.

在那种情况下最终发生了这种情况。

And a bad guy ends up calling the negotiator that I coached on the phone after it was over to basically tell him that they still had a good relationship.

谈判结束后，一个坏人最终给我指导的谈判代表打电话，基本上告诉他他们仍然保持着良好的关系。

It was nuts.

太疯狂了。

Why does a bad guy call the negotiator that was responsible for him losing everything and know you did a good job?

为什么一个坏人会打电话给导致他失去一切的谈判代表，并且知道你做得很好？

Which is exactly what happened.

这正是发生的事情。

So we roll into a case, and I hadn't had anything go bad at that point in time.

所以我们开始处理一个案子，当时我还没有遇到任何问题。

Very next case, a Burnham-Sobero case by a different faction of the terrorist group, 13 months later ends up in two of the three remaining hostages shot and killed by friendly fire along the way.

下一个案件是恐怖组织另一个派系的伯纳姆-索贝罗案件，13 个月后，剩下的三名人质中的两人在途中被友军炮火射杀。

Hostages had been executed.

人质已被处决。

An American had been executed early on, and it was a train wreck, and lots of people got killed all along the way, and just really ridiculous bad things happening.

一个美国人很早就被处决了，那是一场火车失事，一路上很多人被杀，而且发生了非常可笑的坏事。

And that was bad all the way through.

一直以来情况都很糟糕。

So learned a lot from it, went back and checked everything we did, and we didn't do anything wrong that we felt based on our strategy, didn't miss anything.

所以从中学到了很多东西，回去检查了我们所做的一切，根据我们的策略，我们没有做任何错误的事情，也没有错过任何事情。

And that was why I ended up going collaborating with the guys at Harvard, because my reaction was, if we did everything we know how to do and it wasn't enough, that means we're not smart enough, we got to get better.

这就是为什么我最终与哈佛大学的人合作，因为我的反应是，如果我们做了我们知道如何做的一切，但还不够，那就意味着我们不够聪明，我们必须变得更好。

And so that case taught me a lot about the dynamics that really happen on the other side and the difference between whether or not people are really on your side.

所以这个案例让我学到了很多关于另一方真正发生的动态以及人们是否真正站在你这一边之间的区别。

The US government was not highly collaborative.

美国政府的合作程度不高。

The Philippine government was not highly collaborative.

菲律宾政府的合作程度不高。

Everybody wanted to get their pound of flesh out of the other side.

每个人都想从对方身上榨取自己的一磅肉。

I mean, just everything bad that you can imagine.

我的意思是，一切你能想象到的糟糕的事情。

Early on, when Guillermo Sobero was murdered by the Abu Sayyaf, it was a national holiday in the Philippines, and the bad guys had a history of killing people on national holidays, and we weren't from the Philippines, and we had no idea that that day was a national holiday.

早些时候，吉列尔莫·索贝罗被阿布沙耶夫谋杀时，那天是菲律宾的国定假日，坏人有在国定假日杀人的历史，而我们不是来自菲律宾，我们不知道那天是国定假日。

And we showed up at Philippine National Police Headquarters, in Manila, and it was closed.

我们出现在马尼拉的菲律宾国家警察总部，它已经关闭了。

Now I got an ongoing hostage case with bad guys threatening to kill hostages.

现在我接到一起正在进行的人质案件，坏人威胁要杀害人质。

And we show up at the gates, and the gates are closed, and we're like, what the hell's going on here?

我们出现在门口，大门关着，我们就想，这里到底发生了什么？

Well, it's a national holiday.

嗯，今天是国庆节。

Nobody's working today.

今天没人工作。

I'm like, first of all, nobody told us that.

我想，首先，没有人告诉我们这一点。

Secondly, I don't think the bad guys really care that it's a national holiday and nobody's working.

其次，我认为坏人并不真正关心这是国定假日并且没有人工作。

Our negotiator is nowhere to be found.

我们的谈判代表无处可寻。

We got a guy there that the previous negotiator we worked with, Philippine National Police, was not that happy that they didn't have him under complete control.

我们在那里找到了一个人，我们之前合作的谈判代表菲律宾国家警察局对他们没有完全控制他感到不太高兴。

So they give us a guy that will not tell us anything until after he's told them.

所以他们给了我们一个在告诉他们之前不会告诉我们任何事情的人。

So he's having conversations with the bad guys, and we're actually hearing about him secondhand.

所以他正在与坏人交谈，我们实际上是间接听说他的。

He didn't show up that day.

那天他没有出现。

And, of course, that day, the bad guys announced they're going to kill a hostage and give it as a gift to the country of the Philippines because it's a holiday.

当然，那天，坏人宣布他们要杀死一名人质，并将其作为礼物送给菲律宾，因为今天是假期。

And they go, oh, by the way, they like doing this on holidays.

他们说，哦，顺便说一句，他们喜欢在假期这样做。

And Guillermo Sobero ended up getting his head cut.

吉列尔莫·索贝罗最终被砍头。

Because of all the warring factions on our side of the table not telling each other what the hell's going on.

因为我们这边的所有交战派别都没有告诉对方到底发生了什么。

So I had assumed at that point in time that people would tell us the stuff we need to know, we didn't need to ask.

所以我当时就假设人们会告诉我们我们需要知道的事情，我们不需要问。

And after that, I got like, look, there ain't nothing here that I don't need to know.

在那之后，我想，看，这里没有什么是我不需要知道的。

If it's a holiday, it's coming up, and you assume, I know you got to tell us.

如果是假期，那就快到了，你会想，我知道你必须告诉我们。

So, really learned a lot about collaboration on our side of the table and also the lack of collaboration on the other side of the table.

因此，我们确实学到了很多关于我们这边的协作以及桌子另一方缺乏协作的知识。

Just because we're a mess doesn't mean they got their act together and the bad guys didn't have their act together.

仅仅因为我们一团糟，并不意味着他们同心协力，而坏人则没有同心协力。

And ultimately the hostages, one of the reasons someone didn't come out, because internally, they had double crossed each other.

最后是人质，这是有人没有出来的原因之一，因为他们内部互相出卖了。

So learned a lot about what really fundamental human nature dynamics are in teams, and your team has not got its act together, and the other team does not either.

因此，我学到了很多关于团队中真正基本的人性动力的知识，而你的团队还没有齐心协力，而另一个团队也没有。

So what can you do as a communicator to make up for that?

那么作为沟通者你可以做什么来弥补这一点呢？

Really learned a lot about that in that case.

在那种情况下确实学到了很多东西。

I had cases subsequent to that involving Al-Qaeda when Al-Qaeda was killing people on a regular basis.

当基地组织定期杀人时，我接获了涉及基地组织的案件。

But we saw those coming and we did everything we could do to keep the train from smashing into us.

但我们看到那些人来了，我们尽一切努力阻止火车撞上我们。

You see a train coming down the tracks, you know it's coming down the tracks, and you do the best you can to derail it, and sometimes you can't.

你看到一列火车沿着铁轨驶来，你知道它正在沿着铁轨驶来，你会尽最大努力让它脱轨，但有时你做不到。

Andrew Huberman: I've heard it said that when people take somebody captive that they either want their money, their body or their life, or some combination of those.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我听说，当人们俘虏某人时，他们要么想要他们的钱、他们的身体或他们的生命，或者这些的某种组合。

Chris Voss: Yeah, that's probably one of those three.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，这可能是这三个之一。

Yeah, that's very true.

是的，确实如此。

Andrew Huberman: And as the negotiator trying to rescue the hostage, is it important to identify early on which of those three or which all of those three they're after, like how serious they are?

安德鲁·休伯曼：作为试图营救人质的谈判者，尽早确定他们要追捕这三人中的哪一个或这三人中的哪一个，比如他们的严重程度如何，这一点很重要吗？

Are they willing to actually kill the hostage?

他们真的愿意杀死人质吗？

Will they go for any amount of money above X number of dollars, trying to figure out their threshold.

他们是否会寻求超过 X 美元的任何金额，并试图找出他们的门槛。

Right.

正确的。

Because the person is on the other side is gambling.

因为对方正在赌博。

Right.

正确的。

They're gambling their freedom, they're gambling their reputation with whoever their reputation matters to.

他们在拿自己的自由做赌注，他们在拿自己的名誉与那些对他们的名誉重要的人做赌注。

Is it important to get into the mindset of the person you're negotiating with quickly using the hypothesis-generating method?

使用假设生成方法快速了解谈判对象的心态是否重要？

And if so, could you give an example of how that played out in your previous work?

如果是这样，您能否举例说明这一点在您之前的工作中是如何发挥作用的？

Chris Voss: Yeah, the indicators are really there.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，指标确实存在。

Once you sort of lose your illusions about how you think things should play out, then the patterns of behavior are generally pretty quick and clear.

一旦你对事情应该如何发展失去了幻想，那么行为模式通常就会非常快速和清晰。

And just because you don't like the patterns, like with Al-Qaeda, we recognize the patterns, and knowing what they are doesn't mean you can change what they are.

仅仅因为你不喜欢这些模式，就像基地组织一样，我们就认识到这些模式，并且知道它们是什么并不意味着你可以改变它们是什么。

And Al-Qaeda in 2004-ish time frame was very clear about killing people on deadline, and we had to recognize that.

基地组织在 2004 年左右的时间范围内非常明确要在最后期限内杀人，我们必须认识到这一点。

So there becomes a pattern of behavior, and it's usually specificity in what they say.

因此，就形成了一种行为模式，而且他们所说的话通常是具体的。

And this is all human nature.

这都是人性。

Like, if you're in a business negotiation and they say, we're going to do something horrible here, we're going to walk out, that's fairly nonspecific.

就像，如果你正在进行商业谈判，他们说，我们要在这里做一些可怕的事情，我们要退出，这是相当不具体的。

And if they say, look, if we don't get this by this specific deadline, if we don't get these specific things met by this specific time, that's pretty specific.

如果他们说，看，如果我们在这个特定的截止日期之前没有得到这个，如果我们没有在这个特定的时间之前满足这些特定的事情，那就非常具体了。

It's specificity.

这是特异性。

You're looking for it.

你正在寻找它。

I learned to look for it in kidnapping negotiations.

我学会了在绑架谈判中寻找它。

We're working a case again in the Philippines, and the bad guys say if we don't get a ransom for the son, 17-year-old boy at the time is kidnapped, you tell his father he's going to lose an egg.

我们又在菲律宾处理一个案件，坏人说，如果我们不能为当时被绑架的 17 岁男孩拿到赎金，你就告诉他的父亲，他会失去一个鸡蛋。

And that's a euphemism for losing a child.

这是失去孩子的委婉说法。

And early on, when that threat came through on our side of the table, everybody's like, oh, my God, they're going to kill him.

早些时候，当我们这一方收到威胁时，每个人都会说，哦，天哪，他们要杀了他。

This is really bad.

这实在是太糟糕了。

We got to make sure the family can pay the ransom.

我们必须确保家人能够支付赎金。

I'm like, no. They didn't say when it was going to happen.

我想，不。他们没有透露什么时候会发生。

They didn't say how it was going to happen.

他们没有说这将如何发生。

They didn't say who was going to do it.

他们没有说谁来做这件事。

The basic specificity of who, what, when and where.

人物、事件、时间和地点的基本特性。

Like, they left themselves an out here, a very clear out.

就像，他们把自己留在这里，一个非常干净的地方。

We never said we were going to do it.

我们从未说过我们要这么做。

We never said when it was going to happen.

我们从未说过它什么时候会发生。

We never said which child.

我们从来没有说过哪个孩子。

They're just trying to scare you.

他们只是想吓唬你。

They're throwing out something vague.

他们抛出了一些含糊不清的东西。

I said, we got plenty of time to play with this.

我说，我们有足够的时间来玩这个。

We got to push this all the way through the process until the end.

我们必须将这一点贯穿整个过程，直到最后。

Now, later on in that case, when the family tried to deliver a ransom and it was screwed up by God knows who, the bad guys came up back on the phone and they said, if we don't get paid tomorrow, your son dies.

现在，后来在那起案件中，当家人试图提供赎金时，天知道是谁搞砸了，坏人又打电话过来，他们说，如果我们明天得不到赎金，你的儿子就会死。

And I said, all right, now that's specific.

我说，好吧，现在是具体的了。

And these guys sound like they mean it.

这些家伙听起来好像是认真的。

And so we're going to have to make sure this thing goes down tomorrow or that's the end of this kid.

所以我们必须确保这件事明天顺利，否则这孩子就完蛋了。

And at that point in time, we allowed the family, we were in a position to allow or disallow.

在那个时候，我们允许家人，我们可以允许或不允许。

We were in a position to offer thoughts.

我们能够提供想法。

And our thoughts were, they mean it now, and you need to do something now, or likely something bad's going to happen.

我们的想法是，他们现在就是这个意思，你现在需要做点什么，否则可能会发生一些不好的事情。

And now that they're this serious, because you always got to worry about what we used to refer to as a double dip.

现在它们变得如此严重，因为你总是要担心我们过去所说的二次探底。

Do they take the money and they come back and say, no, that was a down payment.

他们拿了钱后回来说，不，那是首付。

That wasn't the ransom.

那不是赎金。

That was just a down payment.

那只是首付。

You got to make sure you don't get double dipped if you let the family pay, and you got to give them your honest opinion as to whether or not they're going to let the hostage go if you pay now.

如果你让家人付钱，你必须确保自己不会受到双重打击，并且你必须向他们提供诚实的意见，告诉他们如果你现在付钱，他们是否会释放人质。

And our thoughts were, you pay them tomorrow.

我们的想法是，你明天付钱给他们。

Your son's coming out.

你儿子要出来了

And he did.

他做到了。

Andrew Huberman: The double dip is a scary thing to hear about at a much lower level, meaning more minor level.

Andrew Huberman：在较低的水平上听到二次探底是一件可怕的事情，意味着更小的水平。

People sometimes get shaken down online, like their password will get taken.

人们有时会在网上感到震惊，就像他们的密码会被盗一样。

There are people everywhere who go for the "click on this link," you'll get a text message.

世界各地都有人点击“点击此链接”，您就会收到一条短信。

We've identified that your account has been changed.

我们发现您的帐户已更改。

Verify you.

验证你。

Click on the link, takes you someplace where you put in your login and password, and boom, it's gone.

单击链接，将您带到输入登录名和密码的地方，然后，它就消失了。

And then they try and sell it back to you, typically through cryptocurrency, because it's not traceable.

然后他们尝试将其卖回给你，通常是通过加密货币，因为它是不可追踪的。

Chris Voss: By the way those negotiations can be a lot of fun if you let them.

克里斯·沃斯：顺便说一句，如果你允许的话，这些谈判会很有趣。

Andrew Huberman: Well, I'm hoping that our discussion about this now is going to save some people the trouble of having their accounts hacked.

Andrew Huberman：嗯，我希望我们现在对此的讨论能够帮助一些人避免帐户被黑客攻击的麻烦。

I've known people who've had their accounts hacked, and these are some smart people.

我认识一些账户被黑的人，他们都是一些聪明人。

But what's interesting is that I've also observed those situations where somebody gets to the point where they say, you know, I'm just going to give them what they want.

但有趣的是，我也观察到有人会说，你知道，我只会给他们他们想要的东西。

And I remember in this one particular instance saying, no, do not give them the money, because then they're just going to say they want more.

我记得在这个特殊的例子中，我说，不，不要给他们钱，因为那样他们就会说他们想要更多。

There's no guarantee that they're going to give you back what you want.

无法保证他们会给您回馈您想要的东西。

And why would they?

他们为什么会这么做？

If you think about it, why would they?

如果你想一想，他们为什么要这么做？

The money funnels in and they just can pivot and go to the next thing.

资金流入后，他们就可以转向下一件事。

So how do you gain confidence that you are likely to be double dipped or not?

那么，你如何获得自己是否可能双底的信心呢？

Chris Voss: Well, first of all, I got to find out if they're in a position to carry out the threat, or if they're in any sort of legitimate position to begin with.

克里斯·沃斯：嗯，首先，我必须查明他们是否有能力实施威胁，或者他们是否处于任何合法的位置。

For lack of a better term, it's proof of life.

由于缺乏更好的术语，它是生命的证明。

And there are a lot of people that have tried to scam you, but they don't really have the ability to scam you.

而且有很多人试图欺骗你，但他们并没有真正的能力来欺骗你。

So you got to find out, do some confirmation.

所以你必须找出答案，做一些确认。

Do they have access to your account?

他们有权访问您的帐户吗？

Do they have your data?

他们有你的数据吗？

They have your money.

他们有你的钱。

Do they have it in a position or are they just trying to make you believe that they have that position of influence on you?

他们是否拥有这样的地位，或者他们只是想让你相信他们对你有影响力？

There are a lot of the bad guys out there that are just rolling a dice, dialing for dollars, if you will.

如果你愿意的话，有很多坏人只是在掷骰子，拨弄美元。

And if they don't scam you when they have no leverage on you, they'll find somebody else that'll give in.

如果他们在对你没有影响力的情况下不欺骗你，他们就会找到其他愿意屈服的人。

So there's a bit of authenticity, or are they in a position to do it?

那么有一点真实性，或者他们有能力做到这一点吗？

And the same rule applies in any negotiation.

同样的规则适用于任何谈判。

The other side is going to give in when they feel like they've gotten everything they can.

当对方觉得自己已经得到了一切时，他们就会屈服。

Kidnappers.

绑匪。

I'd be asked by an ambassador, asked by an FBI commander, when's this going to be over?

一位大使、一位联邦调查局指挥官都会问我，这一切什么时候结束？

When the bad guys feel like they've gotten everything they could, not when they did, but when they felt like they did.

当坏人觉得他们已经得到了他们能得到的一切时，不是当他们得到的时候，而是当他们感觉他们得到的时候。

So our job is just make them feel it sooner.

所以我们的工作就是让他们更快地感受到这一点。

So how hard do you make it?

那么你有多难做到呢？

Innocently on the other side?

对方无辜吗？

Everybody wants to feel like they got a good day's pay for a good day's work.

每个人都希望感觉自己通过一天的辛苦工作获得了丰厚的报酬。

So if you let them feel like they're in charge and you make them work by asking them innocent how and what questions, which are very hard and fatiguing to answer, then you're going to get to the point where you're going to get a solid outcome where you don't get double dipped and they're going to be happy that it's over because they felt like they got everything they could.

因此，如果你让他们觉得他们是负责人，你通过问他们天真的问题如何以及什么问题来让他们工作，这些问题很难回答，而且令人疲惫不堪，那么你就会达到这样的地步：你将得到一个坚实的结果，你不会受到双重打击，他们会很高兴一切都结束了，因为他们觉得自己得到了他们能得到的一切。

It could be your data, could be your bank account, could be anything.

它可以是您的数据，可以是您的银行帐户，可以是任何东西。

The other side is going to be satisfied with the outcome when they feel like they've worked for it.

当对方觉得自己已经为之努力时，他们会对结果感到满意。

And business negotiations, you're selling your car and you put a price tag on your car, and the guy walks up to you and says, I'll give you full amount right now.

在商务谈判中，你要卖掉你的汽车，并在你的汽车上贴上价格标签，然后那个人走到你面前说，我现在就给你全额。

What's your reaction?

你的反应是什么？

I should have asked for more.

我应该要求更多。

Maybe I won't sell my car.

也许我不会卖掉我的车。

Every human interaction, the other side wants to feel like that they earned what they got.

在每次人际交往中，对方都希望感觉自己得到了自己应得的东西。

And so the idea of empathy and hostage negotiations is really just to make them feel that sooner.

因此，同情和人质谈判的想法实际上只是为了让他们更快地感受到这一点。

Andrew Huberman: We're going to come back to empathy because it's such a big and important topic.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我们将回到同理心，因为这是一个如此大而重要的话题。

But I've heard it said before that if somebody you don't know, but maybe also somebody you know, places a real sense of urgency on need the money now, or I need you to do something right away, or else, not a threat of physical violence, but that any request for expediting something is a red flag, that it's likely to be a scam.

但我以前听说过，如果你不认识的人，但也可能是你认识的人，对现在需要钱感到真正的紧迫感，或者我需要你立即做某事，或者，不是身体暴力的威胁，而是任何加快某事的请求都是一个危险信号，这很可能是一个骗局。

Very seldom do you need to click on the link within 24 hours.

您很少需要在 24 小时内点击该链接。

Right?

正确的？

I mean, how could that possibly be?

我的意思是，这怎么可能？

Right?

正确的？

But that's one way in which people are exploited, that some request comes in by phone or by email or text, or maybe even person.

但这是人们被剥削的一种方式，某些请求是通过电话、电子邮件或短信，甚至是人提出的。

Somebody says, you need to do this right now or else something bad is going to happen, capture people's sense of urgency, get them to make a mistake, and then they're left reeling.

有人说，你需要现在就这样做，否则会发生不好的事情，抓住人们的紧迫感，让他们犯错误，然后他们就会感到震惊。

Because that request for something right now or else, I think, hits a fundamental nerve in us.

因为我认为，现在或其他时候对某事的要求触动了我们的根本神经。

Chris Voss: To want to help, to be a rescuer.

克里斯·沃斯：想要提供帮助，成为一名救援者。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

So is that a good rule of thumb for people to keep in mind?

那么，这是人们应该牢记的一个好的经验法则吗？

Chris Voss: I think that's a great rule of thumb.

克里斯·沃斯：我认为这是一个很好的经验法则。

I mean, a friend of mine, somebody got a hold of his phone number not that long ago, and I was getting texts from his number.

我的意思是，我的一个朋友，不久前有人拿到了他的电话号码，我从他的号码收到短信。

Sound like, look, man, I got some real problems.

听起来，伙计，我遇到了一些真正的问题。

Look, I need some money from you now.

听着，我现在需要你给我一些钱。

It was a friend, a friend's number.

这是一个朋友，一个朋友的号码。

And I remember when I first saw it, actually, when I first saw it, I was really busy, and I felt bad that I didn't get back to him that day.

而且我记得我第一次看到的时候，其实我第一次看到的时候，我真的很忙，那天我没有回复他，我感觉很糟糕。

And then I didn't hear from him again.

然后我就再也没有收到他的消息了。

And so I thought, well, whatever it was, he worked it out.

所以我想，好吧，不管是什么，他都解决了。

So a couple of weeks later, I get the text again, you got a real problem.

几周后，我再次收到短信，你遇到了真正的问题。

You got to get back to me right now.

你必须马上回到我身边。

So I decide if it's really my buddy, I am going to help him right now.

所以我决定如果这真的是我的朋友，我现在就去帮助他。

I got to make sure it's really my buddy.

我得确定这真的是我的朋友。

I said, hey, man, you didn't raise this at all last time I saw you in Vegas.

我说，嘿，伙计，上次我在维加斯见到你时你根本没有提出这个问题。

Because I'd seen him in Vegas recently.

因为我最近在维加斯见过他。

And he's, you know, I was busy.

他，你知道，我很忙。

I couldn't bring it up.

我无法提出来。

And so I'm thinking, like, all right, so there's no direct confirmation or denial.

所以我想，好吧，所以没有直接的确认或否认。

We had breakfast together in Vegas.

我们在维加斯一起吃早餐。

So then I shoot back, I said, like, and, man, I got to tell you something.

然后我回击，我说，就像，伙计，我必须告诉你一些事情。

That was such a crazy night, and I still owe you money from then.

那真是一个疯狂的夜晚，从那时起我还欠你钱。

So that night when we were gambling, I still owe you money.

所以那天晚上我们赌博的时候，我还欠你钱呢。

I'm happy to help.

我很乐意提供帮助。

Now, it wasn't a crazy night.

现在，这不是一个疯狂的夜晚。

It was breakfast, and I didn't owe money.

这是早餐，我又不欠钱。

And his next response was like, yeah, don't worry about it.

他的下一个回答是，是的，别担心。

You can make that up to me with this.

你可以用这个来弥补我。

So I'm like, all right, cool.

所以我想，好吧，很酷。

So now I start making stuff up.

所以现在我开始编造一些东西。

And I said, and when we were with those strippers and that dog and the clown and the pony, I'll never get over that.

我说，当我们和那些脱衣舞娘、那只狗、小丑和小马在一起时，我永远不会忘记这一点。

And so now the guy's, what are you talking about?

那么现在这个家伙，你在说什么？

And I said, by the way.

我说，顺便说一下。

And then I started throwing in some stuff about his wife and his mother, and the guy got insulted and called me names and stopped texting me.

然后我开始扔一些关于他妻子和他母亲的东西，那家伙被侮辱了，辱骂我，不再给我发短信了。

And then I sent all those text messages to the real guy, including what I'd said about his mother, and he texted me back.

然后我把所有这些短信发给了真正的那个人，包括我所说的关于他母亲的事情，他给我回了短信。

He's got a great sense of humor.

他很有幽默感。

He says, by the way, my mom does think you're attractive.

他说，顺便说一句，我妈妈确实认为你很有魅力。

Andrew Huberman: Oh, man.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，伙计。

Chris Voss: But I started it all by just checking the source.

克里斯·沃斯：但这一切都是我从检查来源开始的。

If it was my friend, I would have helped him immediately.

如果是我的朋友，我会立即帮助他。

And I need to throw something at him that's going to confirm that it's him and that I'm there for him.

我需要向他扔一些东西来确认是他并且我在他身边。

But I'm also going to put a little bit of a curve in there that if he doesn't catch, I know it's a con, and then I'm going to have fun with it.

但我也会在那里放一点曲线，如果他没有接住，我知道这是一个骗局，然后我会享受它的乐趣。

Andrew Huberman: Incredible knowledge that people will hear this and they might think, oh, that's never going to happen to me.

安德鲁·休伯曼：令人难以置信的是，人们听到这个消息后可能会想，哦，这永远不会发生在我身上。

But like I said, I had known family members and friends who they make the mistake, they take the bait of clicking on the link and then now they're getting the shakedown.

但就像我说的，我知道我的家人和朋友犯了错误，他们上当了点击链接的诱饵，然后现在他们就受到了打击。

Actually, a good friend of mine said that her parents called at some point.

事实上，我的一个好朋友说她的父母在某个时候打来电话。

Her parents are probably in their late 70s now.

她的父母现在可能已经70多岁了。

Someone had called their house and told them that their child, this woman, had been kidnapped and that they needed to send money.

有人打电话给他们家，告诉他们，他们的孩子，这个女人，被绑架了，他们需要寄钱。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: And that if they called the police, they'd kill her or harm her in some way.

安德鲁·休伯曼：如果他们报警，他们就会杀了她或以某种方式伤害她。

So they started sending money and they were afraid to contact her.

所以他们开始寄钱，但不敢联系她。

And you can see what a bind a loving parent would be in.

你可以看到慈爱的父母会陷入怎样的困境。

Right.

对。

They obviously don't want to get this child of theirs hurt, and they obviously are willing to do whatever it takes in order to get them back.

他们显然不想让自己的这个孩子受到伤害，而且他们显然愿意不惜一切代价来让他们回来。

Turns out it was total scam, right.

事实证明这完全是骗局，对吧。

Because eventually there was communication that made them realize that their daughter was perfectly okay and never even interacted with kidnappers.

因为最终的沟通让他们意识到他们的女儿完全没问题，甚至从未与绑匪有过互动。

So those kinds of scams happen pretty often.

所以这类骗局经常发生。

Chris Voss: I've had that happen to a friend also.

Chris Voss：我的一个朋友也遇到过这种情况。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

So the sense of urgency should have been the first flag.

所以紧迫感应该是第一面旗帜。

Chris Voss: That's a great point.

克里斯·沃斯：这是一个很好的观点。

Yeah, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

And look, even if they've got your loved one, the secondary issue is if you do what they want, are they going to let them go?

看看，即使他们得到了你所爱的人，次要的问题是，如果你按照他们的意愿去做，他们会放他们走吗？

Which is actually a legitimate question, like if there really are bad guys.

这实际上是一个合理的问题，就像是否真的有坏人一样。

One of the things we learned in hostage negotiation that applied to business negotiation, there are legitimate questions that it's okay to ask.

我们在人质谈判中学到的适用于商业谈判的一件事是，可以提出一些合理的问题。

You're not being disrespectful, you're not pushing back.

你没有不尊重，也没有抗拒。

There are fair to use the F bomb.

还有公平使用F弹。

Fair, legitimate questions that you can ask under any circumstances, which is basically, if I comply, is this going to work out the way that you're articulating it?

在任何情况下你都可以提出公平、合法的问题，基本上，如果我遵守的话，这会像你所阐述的那样解决问题吗？

Anything that adds communication into it, which gives you more information to find out what the ultimate outcome looks like.

任何增加沟通的东西，都能为您提供更多信息，以了解最终结果。

Even in kidnappings, how do you know that if you pay, they're going to let them go?

即使在绑架中，你怎么知道如果你付钱，他们就会放人？

That's a legitimate question.

这是一个合理的问题。

Andrew Huberman: There are examples somewhere in between getting your Instagram account hacked, your bank account hacked, and God forbid, your child kidnapped, for instance.

Andrew Huberman：有一些例子介于你的 Instagram 帐户被黑、你的银行帐户被黑，以及上帝保佑，例如你的孩子被绑架。

There's a whole practice within the legal profession of probing to see whether or not somebody is going to give up money to avoid a lawsuit, for instance.

例如，法律界有一个完整的做法，就是调查某人是否会放弃金钱来避免诉讼。

Actually, a lawyer friend of mine recently described their job very well.

事实上，我的一位律师朋友最近很好地描述了他们的工作。

He said, in his words, first person, he said, I scare people for money.

他说，用他的话说，第一人称，他说，我为了钱吓唬人。

The operative word being scare people.

关键词是吓唬人。

Chris Voss: And that's being honest.

克里斯·沃斯：这就是诚实。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, he's being very honest.

Andrew Huberman：是的，他非常诚实。

He scares people for money and he's very good at it.

他为了钱而吓唬别人，而且他很擅长这样做。

And he understands how other people scare people for money.

他也理解其他人如何为了钱而吓唬人。

And he works both sides in plaintiff for defense type situations.

他还为原告双方处理辩护类型的情况。

But it made me realize that a lot of the legal profession is not okay.

但这让我意识到很多法律职业都不好。

The lawsuit slid across the table.

诉讼案从桌子上滑过。

It's the, okay, here's what the lawsuit would look like.

好吧，这就是诉讼的样子。

Here are all the statutes that potentially were violated, and then there's a probe of what somebody's finances are and how much they're willing to pay.

以下是所有可能被违反的法规，然后调查某人的财务状况以及他们愿意支付多少费用。

And do they have liability insurance?

他们有责任保险吗？

Do they have an umbrella policy?

他们有保护伞政策吗？

All the sorts of things that are really, it's not necessarily an illegal shakedown, but it's a probing as to whether or not it's worth the effort.

确实，这并不一定是非法的勒索，而是对是否值得付出努力的试探。

Chris Voss: Diagnosing the other side's ability to pay.

Chris Voss：诊断对方的支付能力。

Andrew Huberman: You're right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你是对的。

And so that happens really often.

所以这种情况经常发生。

I can give a specific example where somebody had an incident at a dog park, where their dog allegedly ran into somebody, maybe charged at somebody ...

我可以举一个具体的例子，有人在狗公园发生了一起事件，据称他们的狗撞到了某人，可能还指控某人......

dog park.

狗公园。

People are standing around and the person moved and apparently injured their knee.

人们站在周围，这个人移动了，显然膝盖受伤了。

But rather than sue the owner of the dog, what they typically do is deliver some set of documents that say, I was injured, your dog was responsible for this, and if you don't settle up for X number of dollars, you're going to be sued for usually an exorbitant amount above that.

但他们通常不会起诉狗的主人，而是提供一些文件，上面写着：我受伤了，你的狗对此负有责任，如果你不支付 X 美元，你将被起诉，赔偿金额通常比该金额高。

And then there's this question that the lawyers have to figure out, like, is it puffery?

然后律师必须弄清楚这个问题，比如，这是虚张声势吗？

Chris Voss: Right?

克里斯·沃斯：对吗？

Andrew Huberman: Are they saying, I'm going to sue you for $4 million?

Andrew Huberman：他们是说，我要起诉你，索赔 400 万美元吗？

Is there any basis for that?

这有什么依据吗？

And good lawyers will say, that's puffery.

优秀的律师会说，这是虚张声势。

They're trying to scare you with a big number, but a lot of people see that number and go, oh, my goodness, what do they want?

他们试图用一个大数字来吓唬你，但很多人看到这个数字后会想，哦，天哪，他们想要什么？

You know what?

你知道吗？

I don't even know if they were injured.

我什至不知道他们有没有受伤。

If they were, that's terrible.

如果他们是的话，那就太可怕了。

I'd want that taken care of.

我希望能解决这个问题。

If my dog's responsible, I'd want that taken care of.

如果我的狗有责任，我希望得到解决。

But what do they need in order to make this go away?

但他们需要什么才能让这种情况消失呢？

And that happens millions of times a day throughout the country, and a good portion of those probably happen here in California, because that's kind of the way the legal system is arranged.

这种情况在全国每天都会发生数百万次，其中很大一部分可能发生在加利福尼亚州，因为这就是法律制度的安排方式。

So this is not somebody.

所以这不是一个人。

It could be somebody manipulating the law.

可能是有人操纵法律。

It could also be somebody who's being entirely honest about their experience of being injured by somebody else's dog.

也可能有人完全诚实地讲述了自己被别人的狗伤害的经历。

So under those conditions, I mean, it sounds like the same set of rules apply.

因此，在这些条件下，我的意思是，听起来好像适用同一组规则。

You want to know how serious they are.

你想知道他们有多严重。

Do they have a case, so to speak?

可以这么说，他们有案例吗？

That's the work of the lawyers.

这就是律师的工作。

But in assessing how serious somebody is, you said it's fair.

但在评估一个人的认真程度时，你说这是公平的。

You called it the F word.

你称其为F字。

I like that.

我喜欢这样。

I'll never forget that just ask a fair question, how much money do you think you deserve?

我永远不会忘记，只要问一个公平的问题，你认为你应该得到多少钱？

Or would that be a good example of a very direct question?

或者这是一个非常直接的问题的好例子？

Or is it, how likely are you to walk away if we don't give you the money?

或者说，如果我们不给你钱，你走开的可能性有多大？

Because I could imagine there's all sorts of reasons why people would be dishonest about answering those questions.

因为我可以想象人们不诚实地回答这些问题有各种各样的原因。

Chris Voss: Well, and then how much money you think you deserve is a really good question.

克里斯·沃斯：嗯，那么你认为自己应得多少钱是一个非常好的问题。

Not necessarily what the answer is, but how they answer it.

不一定是答案是什么，而是他们如何回答。

You're going to get how quickly they fire back and whether or not they stop and think about it.

你会知道他们反击的速度有多快，以及他们是否停下来思考这一点。

How and what questions typically are best to judge the other side's reaction?

通常如何以及哪些问题最适合判断对方的反应？

And the answer is secondary because the how or what question causes what we would refer to as deep thinking, slow thinking.

答案是次要的，因为如何或什么问题导致了我们所说的深度思考、缓慢思考。

Daniel Kahneman, behavioral economics, "Thinking Fast and Slow." Slow thinking is in-depth thinking.

丹尼尔·卡尼曼，行为经济学，“快与慢思考”。慢思考就是深入思考。

You ask a how or what question to make the other side think first and judge their reaction to how they think about it.

你问一个如何或什么问题，让对方首先思考，并判断他们对这个问题的反应。

And do they actually think about it, or do they fire right back at you?

他们是否真的考虑过这一点，或者他们是否会立即向你开火？

That gives you a clearer picture of who you're dealing with, where the outcome is going to go.

这可以让你更清楚地了解你正在与谁打交道，以及结果将走向何方。

How much money do you think that you deserve if they immediately.

如果他们立即提供，您认为您应得多少钱。

Ten million.

千万。

All right, so this is, I got a shakedown artist on the other side.

好吧，这就是，我的另一边有一位安定艺术家。

Or they say, all right, if they stop and think about it and they give you a thoughtful answer, that's a completely different person on the other side.

或者他们说，好吧，如果他们停下来想一想并给你一个深思熟虑的答案，那对方就是一个完全不同的人。

You're asking a question to diagnose how they respond first, the answer is second.

你问一个问题首先是为了诊断他们的反应，其次才是答案。

And sometimes if it's a cutthroat on the other side, I'm going to start peppering them with how and what questions, just to wear them out.

有时，如果对方是一个残酷的人，我就会开始向他们提出如何以及什么问题，只是为了让他们疲惫不堪。

That's passive aggression.

这就是被动攻击。

If I got a cutthroat aggressor on the other side, I'm going to drop into passive aggressive behavior to slow them down and wear them out.

如果我的另一边遇到了残酷的攻击者，我就会采取被动的攻击行为来减慢他们的速度并耗尽他们的精力。

One of my hostage negotiation heroes, a guy named Gianni Picco, was Gianni Domenico Picco, not Johnny like Johnny Rockets, Italian Gianni.

我的人质谈判英雄之一，一个名叫詹尼·皮科（Gianni Picco）的人，是詹尼·多梅尼科·皮科（Gianni Domenico Picco），而不是像约翰尼火箭队那样的约翰尼，意大利人詹尼。

Gianni Domenico got all the Western hostages out of Beirut in the mid '80s, wrote a book called "Man Without a Gun," negotiated in person, face-to-face with Hezbollah.

贾尼·多梅尼科 (Gianni Domenico) 在 80 年代中期将所有西方人质带出贝鲁特，写了一本名为《没有枪的人》的书，亲自与真主党进行了面对面的谈判。

The only guy that ever did that got everybody out.

唯一一个能把所有人都救出来的人。

And in his book he wrote, one of the great secrets to negotiation is learning how to exhaust the other side.

他在书中写道，谈判的最大秘诀之一就是学习如何耗尽对方的精力。

And when you've got a really dangerous adversary on the other side of the table, you don't go nose to nose.

当你在桌子的另一边遇到一个非常危险的对手时，你就不会正面交锋。

You don't argue, you're not combative.

你不争论，你不好斗。

You wear them out, exhaust them.

你让他们疲惫不堪，耗尽他们的精力。

And if you got somebody really combative or cutthroat on the other side, start peppering them with how and what questions, because to even think about the answer, it tires them out, and it's passive aggressive, and it's deferential, and it really works.

如果对方真的好斗或凶狠，就开始向他们提出如何以及什么问题，因为即使考虑答案，也会让他们疲惫不堪，这是被动的攻击性，而且是恭敬的，而且确实有效。

Andrew Huberman: So if the person on the opposite side of a high-friction negotiation is aggressive, the goal is to slow things down, fatigue them, and get them to just either relent or to reveal something.

安德鲁·休伯曼：因此，如果在高摩擦谈判中对方表现出攻击性，我们的目标就是放慢谈判进程，让他们感到疲劳，让他们要么态度软化，要么透露一些信息。

That's a loophole.

这是一个漏洞。

Chris Voss: Yeah, if I have to make the deal, then I'm going to wear them out.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，如果我必须达成这笔交易，那么我会让他们筋疲力尽。

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, InsideTracker.

Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 InsideTracker。

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InsideTracker 是一个个性化营养平台，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地了解您的身体并帮助您实现健康目标。

I'm a big believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test.

我坚信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响您当前和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来分析。

However, with a lot of blood tests out there, you get information back about blood lipids, about hormones and so on, but you don't know what to do with that information.

然而，通过大量的血液测试，您可以获得有关血脂、激素等的信息，但您不知道如何处理这些信息。

With InsideTracker, they have a personalized platform that makes it very easy to understand your data, that is, to understand what those lipids, what those hormone levels, etc., mean, and behavioral supplement, nutrition and other protocols to adjust those numbers to bring them into the ranges that are ideal for your immediate and long-term health.

借助 InsideTracker，他们拥有一个个性化平台，可以让您轻松了解您的数据，即了解这些血脂、激素水平等的含义，并通过行为补充、营养和其他方案来调整这些数字，使其达到适合您近期和长期健康的理想范围。

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目前，InsideTracker 正在进行价值 6,000 美元的赠品活动。

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要了解有关 InsideTracker 的更多信息并参加此零成本赠品活动，请访问fitnessfuelslongevity.com 参加。

That's fitnessfuelslongevity.com to enter.

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I'm interested in drilling a little bit further into this process of wearing them down and the passive aggressive way of reducing the aggressor's stance.

我有兴趣进一步探讨这个让他们疲惫不堪的过程，以及降低攻击者立场的被动攻击方式。

And I want to highlight for people that what we're talking about here isn't manipulation to extract something we're actually talking about the reverse.

我想向人们强调，我们在这里谈论的并不是操纵来提取我们实际上正在谈论的相反内容。

We're talking about a bad actor who's aggressive and trying to defang that bad actor.

我们谈论的是一个具有攻击性并试图除掉那个坏演员的坏演员。

What does that process of wearing them down look like or sound like?

磨损它们的过程看起来或听起来像什么？

Could you give us a couple of examples of, let's say I'm the bad actor, we could play this game.

你能给我们举几个例子吗？假设我是坏演员，我们可以玩这个游戏。

I won't be very good at this.

我不会很擅长这个。

And I am saying, look, I want X number of dollars by this date or you're not going to get what you want, they're going to die or disappear.

我说，听着，我想要 X 美元，否则你不会得到你想要的，他们会死掉或消失。

Is that simple?

就这么简单吗？

And a stonewall kind of approach.

还有一种石墙式的方法。

What is the approach that you take to wear that person down?

你会采取什么方法来让那个人疲惫不堪？

Chris Voss: Well, they're going to be questions that are mostly how and what?

克里斯·沃斯：嗯，他们的问题主要是如何以及什么？

And they're going to be legitimate questions, which is how do I know you're going to follow through?

这些都是合理的问题，即我如何知道你会坚持到底？

What does that look like?

那看起来像什么？

Like if I do what you want, how do I know you're going to follow through?

就像如果我做你想做的事，我怎么知道你会坚持到底？

Andrew Huberman: So get them to talk about the alternative.

Andrew Huberman：所以让他们讨论替代方案。

Okay, so if you were to.

好吧，如果你愿意的话。

Well, if you deliver by that date, I'm going to pass them to you without fail.

好吧，如果你在那个日期之前交付，我一定会把它们交给你。

Like, if they're just getting kind of brief answers where the person is just, again, this kind of like rigid stonewall approach.

就像，如果他们只是得到某种简短的答案，而这个人又是这种僵化的石墙方法。

Chris Voss: Yeah, well, and so there's a phrase that we use all the time, vision drives decision.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，我们一直在使用一句话，愿景驱动决策。

So if you're really going to comply, if I give in and when I say, how do I know you're going to follow through?

所以，如果你真的要遵守，如果我让步，当我说时，我怎么知道你会遵守呢？

I'm not talking about the threat.

我不是在谈论威胁。

I'm not trying to get you to clarify the threat.

我并不是想让你澄清威胁。

I'm trying to get you to clarify what implementation looks like.

我试图让你澄清实施是什么样的。

So I need to know based on your reaction to that, if you plan on following through.

所以我需要根据你对此的反应来了解你是否打算坚持到底。

If I comply, you will already have that in your head or be open to it.

如果我遵守，你的脑子里就已经有了这个想法，或者对此持开放态度。

Vision drives decision.

愿景驱动决策。

You've thought it through in advance.

你已经提前考虑好了。

What does letting the hostages go look like if you have no intention of ever releasing the hostage?

如果你无意释放人质，那么释放人质会是什么样子？

If I follow through, then you're not going to be able to answer the question and you're probably going to throw it back on me really quickly.

如果我坚持下去，那么你将无法回答这个问题，并且你可能很快就会把它扔给我。

And so then now I know, like, all right, so you got no plans on complying.

所以现在我知道了，好吧，所以你没有遵守计划。

If I give in, you're not going to comply, but you still want the money.

如果我让步，你就不会答应，但你仍然想要钱。

Then I'm going to ask, well, how am I supposed to pay you if you don't have any plans for complying and if you're willing to entertain a conversation about what compliance looks like?

然后我会问，如果您没有任何合规计划，并且您是否愿意就合规情况进行对话，我该怎么付钱给您？

There was a kidnapping that my unit worked just before I was in it in Venezuela, where they weren't entirely sure that the bad guys were going to ...

就在我去委内瑞拉之前，我的单位曾发生过一起绑架案，他们并不完全确定坏人会……

the FARC, I think, had the hostage.

我认为哥伦比亚革命武装力量扣押了人质。

They agreed on an exchange point to let the hostage go.

他们商定了一个交换点以释放人质。

That was some distance from where they had a pretty good idea the hostage was being held.

那距离他们很清楚人质被扣押的地方有一段距离。

So they figured they're not going to drag the hostage all the way to this river crossing if they're not going to let them go.

所以他们认为，如果他们不放人质的话，他们就不会把人质一路拖到这个过河处。

It's just too much effort.

只是太费力了。

And then it was one of the few times there was going to be, theoretically, a simultaneous exchange, but they're going to have to send the money across the river before the hostage was let go.

从理论上讲，这是少数几次同时交换的情况之一，但他们必须在人质被释放之前将钱寄到河对岸。

So if we agree to this, all right, so they're not going to drag this guy all the way to this river crossing if they don't plan on letting him go.

所以如果我们同意这一点，那么如果他们不打算放他走的话，他们就不会把他一路拖到过河的地方。

And if it's a long way to drag him and they got their money, do they want to drag them back?

如果要拖他走很远，而且他们拿到了钱，他们还想拖他们回来吗？

Like, even if they're ambivalent, once they get there, if they've gone through all the effort to get to the meeting location and the hostage is there, we've now just increased the chances significantly.

就像，即使他们很矛盾，一旦他们到达那里，如果他们尽了一切努力到达会议地点并且人质在那里，我们现在就大大增加了机会。

They're going to go ahead and comply because it's a pain in the neck to take them back.

他们会继续遵守，因为让他们回来是一件很痛苦的事情。

This is all human nature stuff, human nature investment.

这都是人性的东西，人性的投资。

How do you get them to engage in actions and behaviors and then verbal commitments that actually mean something to them?

你如何让他们采取行动和行为，然后做出对他们真正有意义的口头承诺？

When I was working kidnappings, the very last thing we'd always have the family get the bad guys to say at last, not first, but last, was we'd actually get a verbal promise to let them go again at the end, because we've been talking to them long enough.

当我从事绑架工作时，我们总是让家人让坏人最后说的最后一件事，不是首先，而是最后，是我们实际上得到口头承诺，最终再次释放他们，因为我们已经和他们谈了足够长的时间。

At this point in time, we got a pretty good idea of what they sound like when they're lying and what they sound like when they tell in the truth.

此时，我们已经很清楚他们说谎时的声音以及他们说真话时的声音了。

If somebody tells the truth, they pretty much tend to tell the truth the same way every time.

如果有人说真话，他们几乎每次都会以同样的方式说真话。

If they tell the truth, you talk to somebody long enough, you got a line on do they ever tell the truth?

如果他们说的是真话，你和某人交谈了足够长的时间，你就接通了电话，他们会说真话吗？

And if they do, what does it sound like?

如果他们这样做了，听起来是什么样的？

People lie 20 ways.

人们撒谎有20种方式。

They tell the truth one way.

他们以一种方式说实话。

So we've been coaching in negotiations with the kidnappers long enough that we know what they sound like when they tell the truth.

因此，我们在与绑匪的谈判中进行了足够长的指导，我们知道他们说实话时的声音是什么样的。

So when they ask at the very end, if we paid, you promise to let them go?

所以当他们最后问，如果我们付了钱，你就答应让他们走吗？

It's not that they answered, but how they answered it, and that'll be the last thing to seal the deal.

重要的不是他们的回答，而是他们如何回答，这将是达成协议的最后一件事。

How do you continually stack the odds in your favor for implementation?

您如何不断地增加对您有利的实施机会？

Andrew Huberman: Do you have a bodily, like a somatic sensor for lying?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你有一个身体上的、像体细胞传感器一样的说谎传感器吗？

The reason I ask is, years ago, I had the experience of knowing somebody, and they turned out to be a generally good person.

我之所以问这个问题，是因为几年前，我有过认识一个人的经历，结果发现他们总体上是一个很好的人。

But I sensed early on that something was, like, off.

但我很早就感觉到有些事情不对劲。

I couldn't relax around them.

在他们身边我无法放松。

I just couldn't relax around them.

我就是在他们身边无法放松。

And I could not tell you why, but it was as if my, I couldn't even identify the neuroanatomy of it.

我无法告诉你为什么，但就好像我的，我什至无法识别它的神经解剖学。

You might say it was the vagus nerve or something, but I teach neuroanatomy, and I can't point to one pathway in the body.

你可能会说这是迷走神经之类的，但我教神经解剖学，我无法指出体内的任何一条通路。

There was something about my autonomic response that would just start cranking up when I was around them, like, something is off, something is off, something else.

当我在他们身边时，我的自主反应就会开始增强，比如，有些东西不对劲，有些东西不对劲，有些东西不对劲。

And I kid you not, five years later, five years later, I discovered a series of lies that all ratcheted together that were actually pretty meaningless in the total context of things.

我没有骗你，五年后，五年后，我发现了一系列的谎言，这些谎言全部交织在一起，实际上在整个事情的背景下毫无意义。

But I remember thinking at that moment, oh, my goodness, my system knew.

但我记得那一刻我在想，哦，天哪，我的系统知道。

And for all my knowledge of neuroscience, I can't tell you to this day what it was in my biology, but it had something to do with my bodily response.

就我所有的神经科学知识而言，我至今还无法告诉你我的生物学原理是什么，但它与我的身体反应有关。

It wasn't just a thought like, that doesn't quite add up, or I feel like I'm getting the runaround.

这不仅仅是一个想法，比如，这不太合情合理，或者我觉得我正在逃避。

It was a physical sensation.

这是一种身体上的感觉。

Are you familiar with that experience?

你熟悉那种经历吗？

Chris Voss: Yeah.

克里斯·沃斯：是的。

Well, it's a little bit what you guys and your colleagues are still discovering the science behind the gut.

嗯，这就是你们和你们的同事仍在探索肠道背后的科学原理。

And what we are actually teaching my company now, we're teaching people, learn the difference between your gut and your amygdala, for lack of a better term, your fear centers, and know which one is which.

我们现在实际上正在教我的公司，我们正在教人们，了解你的直觉和杏仁核之间的区别，因为缺乏更好的术语，你的恐惧中心，并知道哪个是哪个。

And listen to your gut.

听听你的直觉。

Your gut is ridiculously accurate.

你的直觉非常准确。

Now, where does that information come from?

现在，这些信息从哪里来？

One of your podcasts recently, I was listening to.

我最近正在听你的一个播客。

We were talking about olfactory cues, right?

我们谈论的是嗅觉线索，对吧？

The smells like.

闻起来像。

I never thought of that.

我从来没有想过这一点。

Of course.

当然。

What was the term for the molecules that you're putting off?

你推迟的分子的术语是什么？

Andrew Huberman: Pheromones.

安德鲁·休伯曼：信息素。

Chris Voss: Pheromones going to get kicked out, of course.

克里斯·沃斯：当然，信息素会被踢掉。

And that's why some of the great investigators I knew would say, I can just smell it.

这就是为什么我认识的一些伟大的调查员会说，我只能闻到它的味道。

I can smell it.

我能闻到。

So what all is feeding your gut, and what are the senses that the science hasn't yet discovered?

那么，到底是什么在喂养你的肠道，还有哪些科学尚未发现的感官呢？

You can't make me believe, I will never believe that the life force stops at the surface of our skin, that there's energy and that we can pick up on the energy.

你不能让我相信，我永远不会相信生命力停留在我们皮肤的表面，存在能量并且我们可以吸收能量。

I mean, our gut is being fed by all these different inputs that we're aware of or that we have yet to be made aware of.

我的意思是，我们的直觉是由我们已经意识到或尚未意识到的所有这些不同的输入所喂养的。

The tone of voice doesn't match their words.

语气与他们的话不符。

The head tilt.

头歪了。

You've got a supercomputer in your brain.

你的大脑里有一台超级计算机。

Your gut is incredible if you listen to it instead of your fear centers.

如果你倾听它而不是你的恐惧中心，你的直觉是令人难以置信的。

And as soon as you start listening to your gut, you can't explain it at the time, but you got a bad feeling in your gut.

一旦你开始倾听你的直觉，你当时无法解释它，但你的直觉中有一种不好的感觉。

And later on, then you saw it all came together, where your brain was picking up these cues, your brain was probably, when you're in their presence, there's got to be an odor.

后来，你看到这一切都聚集在一起，你的大脑接收到这些线索，你的大脑可能是，当你在他们面前时，一定有一种气味。

Somebody gives off when they're intentionally deceiving.

当有人故意欺骗时，他们就会泄气。

You didn't know that that was a smell, and maybe you couldn't have consciously smelled it, but you're still picking it up.

你不知道那是一种气味，也许你无法有意识地闻到它，但你仍然闻到了它。

So long answer to I'm a very big believer in the gut.

这么长的答案我非常相信直觉。

I think there's science that we know and yet to discover that tells us that the gut is just ridiculously accurate if we listen to it instead of our fear centers.

我认为我们已知但尚未发现的科学告诉我们，如果我们倾听直觉而不是恐惧中心的话，直觉就会非常准确。

Andrew Huberman: I completely agree that there are energetic exchanges that neuroscience can't yet explain.

Andrew Huberman：我完全同意存在神经科学尚无法解释的能量交换。

The field of neuroscience, that is, is starting to explore some of these things.

也就是说，神经科学领域正在开始探索其中的一些事情。

There's basically three apex journals, the most competitive journals to publish in: Science, Nature, and Cell.

基本上有三种顶级期刊，即最具竞争力的发表期刊：《科学》、《自然》和《细胞》。

And I only mention that because there was a series of articles written in Science magazine about magnetoreception in humans.

我之所以提到这一点，是因为《科学》杂志上写了一系列关于人类磁感受的文章。

The idea that humans can detect magnetic fields sounds like wackery, right?

人类可以探测磁场的想法听起来很荒唐，对吧？

Turtles can detect magnetic fields.

海龟可以探测磁场。

They migrate by them, actually long distances, but the idea is that humans can't do that.

它们通过它们迁徙，实际上是很长的距离，但我们的想法是人类无法做到这一点。

And yet there are some well-controlled studies where people have to guess about the orientation of a magnetic field, and they do it better than chance.

然而，在一些控制良好的研究中，人们必须猜测磁场的方向，而且他们做得比偶然更好。

Not everyone can do it, but some can do it better than chance in a way that cannot be predicted by anything else except some inherent form of magnetoreception in their nervous system.

不是每个人都能做到这一点，但有些人可以比偶然做得更好，其方式除了神经系统中某种固有的磁感受形式之外，无法通过其他任何东西来预测。

So there are capabilities of the nervous system that are starting to be revealed, for which we don't have a lot of evidence, but there's enough evidence to suggest that these things are really happening.

因此，神经系统的一些功能正在开始被揭示，我们没有很多证据，但有足够的证据表明这些事情确实正在发生。

The other example, which you might find interesting, is a little bit more, a little less esoteric.

您可能会发现另一个有趣的例子，它有点深奥，也没有那么深奥。

But there was a beautiful paper published in one of the Cell Press journals a couple of years ago showing that when people listen to the same story, the distance between their heartbeats tends to be very similar.

但几年前，细胞出版社的一份期刊上发表了一篇精彩的论文，表明当人们听同一个故事时，他们的心跳之间的距离往往非常相似。

Now, it doesn't mean that their exact heart rates are similar, but if you look at the distance between their heartbeats, they all entrain to the same rhythm, the same song.

现在，这并不意味着他们的确切心率相似，但如果你观察他们心跳之间的距离，他们都会伴随着相同的节奏、同一首歌。

And get this, they're in completely separate rooms.

明白了，他们在完全独立的房间里。

The experiments are being done on completely separate days.

这些实验是在完全不同的日子进行的。

And yet, if I were to line up just the distance between the heartbeats for you, they would line up like a set of columns.

然而，如果我只为你排列心跳之间的距离，它们就会像一组柱子一样排列起来。

Chris Voss: Wow.

克里斯·沃斯：哇。

Andrew Huberman: For dozens of individuals listening to the same story.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对于数十个人听同一个故事。

So clearly there's a passage of energy from things we hear and things we see that goes into our nervous system at a level that's below our conscious detection.

很明显，我们听到和看到的事物中存在一段能量通道，以低于我们意识检测的水平进入我们的神经系统。

Here's the last thing I'll say about this.

这是我要说的最后一件事。

We have a series on mental health coming out, not mental illness, but mental health, by, I think, to be among the very finest psychiatrists in the world, Dr. Paul Conti, and he said, you know, we all think that the forebrain is the supercomputer.

我们推出了一系列关于心理健康的文章，不是精神疾病，而是心理健康，作者是世界上最优秀的精神病学家保罗·孔蒂博士，他说，你知道，我们都认为前脑是超级计算机。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: He said, no, the subconscious is the supercomputer.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他说，不，潜意识是超级计算机。

That's where the real knowledge processing is happening.

这就是真正的知识处理发生的地方。

That's the iceberg below the surface where all the real heavy lifting has taken place.

那是地表以下的冰山，所有真正的繁重工作都在那里发生。

And that people who learn to tap into the subconscious can learn to use that information in very meaningful ways.

学习挖掘潜意识的人可以学会以非常有意义的方式使用这些信息。

And I think that's what you're describing.

我认为这就是你所描述的。

Chris Voss: He's been on with you before, right?

克里斯·沃斯：他以前就和你在一起过，对吧？

Andrew Huberman: He has, to talk about trauma in particular.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他特别要谈论创伤。

And he was on Lex Fridman's podcast as well.

他也出现在 Lex Fridman 的播客上。

The series that we're doing with him is not about trauma per se.

我们与他合作的系列节目本身并不是关于创伤的。

It's really about the subconscious and the self.

这实际上与潜意识和自我有关。

I think you'll find this series really interesting, and it has a number of very practical questions that one can ask themselves about their subconscious and kind of work the process of psychiatry.

我想你会发现这个系列非常有趣，它有许多非常实际的问题，人们可以问自己关于他们的潜意识和精神病学过程的工作类型。

We're excited to release that series because I don't know of anything like it that's been put out there into the public.

我们很高兴发布该系列，因为我不知道有任何类似的东西已向公众发布。

But I was so pleasantly surprised to hear him say, we all hear that the forebrain is the supercomputer.

但我很惊喜地听到他说，我们都听说前脑是超级计算机。

It's what drove our evolution.

这就是推动我们进化的动力。

He's like, no, it's the subconscious.

他说，不，这是潜意识。

That's where our real wisdom resides.

这就是我们真正的智慧所在。

And the forebrain is just the implementation device.

而前脑只是执行装置。

Chris Voss: How we can convince ourselves that we're in charge.

克里斯·沃斯：我们如何才能让自己相信我们是掌控者。

Right?

正确的？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

I mean, I can't think of a time that my gut told me A, and it turned out to be B.

我的意思是，我想不出有一次我的直觉告诉我 A，结果却是 B。

More often than not, though, I've suppressed my response to the gut.

不过，我常常会抑制自己对直觉的反应。

I override it, thinking, I think I made the mistake that you guys train your negotiators to avoid, which is I thought, well, this is making me anxious and the anxiety must be like me, this must be my fault, or I'm not able to calm myself in this situation, not sleeping well, etc. And therefore, this must represent some deficiency on my part.

我不顾一切地想，我想我犯了你们训练谈判人员要避免的错误，我想，好吧，这让我焦虑，焦虑一定像我一样，这一定是我的错，或者我在这种情况下无法让自己平静下来，睡不好等等。因此，这一定代表了我的一些缺陷。

And Lord knows, as your shirt points out, I'm a very flawed person.

天知道，正如你的衬衫所指出的，我是一个非常有缺陷的人。

I have many flaws.

我有很多缺点。

I always say I have 3000 pet peeves and at least as many flaws to match those pet peeves, a one-to-one, at least relationship.

我总是说我有 3000 个烦恼，并且至少有同样多的缺陷来匹配这些烦恼，至少是一对一的关系。

But the point being that I think our bodies really do know.

但重点是我认为我们的身体确实知道。

They know.

他们知道。

Chris Voss: Yeah, I would agree.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，我同意。

Andrew Huberman: So when you're doing negotiations and you're hearing somebody's voice on the phone, there are a lot of cues.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以当你在进行谈判时，如果你在电话里听到某人的声音，就会有很多线索。

When you're face to face, there are additional cues.

当你们面对面时，还会有额外的提示。

There's their face.

那是他们的脸。

And then, of course, if the negotiations are being done by text over a computer or a phone.

当然，如果谈判是通过电脑或电话发短信进行的。

It's a very diminished environment for information.

这是一个信息非常匮乏的环境。

So maybe we could talk about each of those, because we live in those landscapes.

所以也许我们可以逐一讨论，因为我们生活在那些风景中。

If we're face-to-face and we're negotiating, you're listening, of course, to what I want, what I'm insisting on.

如果我们面对面谈判，你当然会听我想要什么，我坚持什么。

You're working that process from your side.

您正在从您这边进行该过程。

What are you paying attention to visually?

视觉上你注意什么？

Chris Voss: It's more, are things in alignment?

Chris Voss：更重要的是，事情是否一致？

There's layman's data, the words, the way it's said and look on people's face and how are they weighed and how they play out.

有外行的数据、词语、说话的方式、人们脸上的表情，以及它们是如何衡量的以及它们是如何发挥作用的。

There's a ratio out there that very unscientific 7% words, 38% delivery, 55% body language.

有一个非常不科学的比例：7% 的言语、38% 的表达、55% 的肢体语言。

People want to argue about it all the time whether or not that's accurate.

人们总是想争论这是否准确。

As a rule of thumb, we throw that out there.

根据经验，我们把它扔掉。

But I tell people the most important issue is, do they line up?

但我告诉人们最重要的问题是，他们排队吗？

So I'm not going to look for, like, when do you raise your eyebrow, or when do you look up into the left?

所以我不会寻找，比如，你什么时候扬起眉毛，或者你什么时候抬头看左边？

I'm really just going to try to get a gut feeling whether or not I think these things are lining up, whether they're in alignment or whether they're out of line.

我真的只是想凭直觉判断这些事情是否一致，是否一致或是否不一致。

And then I'm going to be real careful about what meaning I assign to that.

然后我会非常小心地思考我赋予它的含义。

Affective cues, changes in your tone of voice, changes in your movement.

情感暗示、语气的变化、动作的变化。

And that's one of the reasons why we don't teach reading people's body language, because it's completely contextual to you and the moment.

这就是为什么我们不教阅读人们的肢体语言的原因之一，因为它完全与你和当下的情境相关。

So if I convince myself that a raise of the eyebrow means this, it's out of context.

因此，如果我说服自己眉毛的扬起意味着这个，那就断章取义了。

I was in a negotiation once where I threw out a figure to somebody, and I saw him kind of look off to the side and look back and accepted my offer.

有一次我在一次谈判中，我向某人抛出了一个数字，我看到他看向一边，然后回头接受了我的提议。

And I made the mistake of not saying to them the appropriate thing for me to say at the time would have been, seems like something just crossed your mind, because the only completely true observation, if they looked to the side and looked back, something crossed their mind.

我犯了一个错误，没有对他们说当时我该说的适当的话，似乎你刚刚想到了什么，因为唯一完全真实的观察，如果他们看向一边并回头看，就会有一些东西闪过他们的脑海。

Now, I read it at the moment of saying that they had more money, and I found out after the fact that was wrong.

现在，我在说他们有更多钱的时候读到了，事后我发现这是错误的。

They were stretched to the limit.

他们已经被逼到了极限。

The look of hesitation didn't mean that they were holding stuff back, but I read it wrong, and I didn't bother to check on the affective cue that I saw.

犹豫的表情并不意味着他们有所保留，但我读错了，而且我也懒得去检查我看到的情感暗示。

So what am I babbling about?

那我在胡言乱语什么呢？

What I'm babbling about is if we're in a negotiation and whether or not I'm listening to your tone of voice or watching your body language or your words.

我喋喋不休的是我们是否在谈判，以及我是否在听你的语气或观察你的肢体语言或你的言语。

If I see you shift at all, I should pay attention that there was a shift in your affected behavior, but I need to find out what was behind it as opposed to making an assumption as to what it meant.

如果我看到你有任何转变，我应该注意你受影响的行为发生了转变，但我需要找出其背后的原因，而不是对其含义做出假设。

So, yeah, I'm going to watch, I'm going to get my gut feeling and I'm going to say, sounds like there's some hesitation, or it looks like something just crossed your mind, or even if I can't attribute it to a specific affective move, I might say it feels like there's something in the way here.

所以，是的，我会观察，我会得到我的直觉，我会说，听起来有些犹豫，或者看起来有些东西刚刚闪过你的脑海，或者即使我不能将其归因于特定的情感动作，我可能会说感觉这里有什么东西。

That's me listening to my gut.

那是我在听我的直觉。

I'll throw out an observation on whatever any of those might be, just to go back over the ground a little bit and double check.

我将对其中任何一个可能的内容进行观察，只是为了稍微回到地面并仔细检查。

Because the other thing about negotiating in person is you're going to give me more information physically than I can actually process.

因为面对面谈判的另一件事是，你将向我提供比我实际处理能力更多的信息。

And if you say something that's thought provoking, I'll stop and think about it.

如果你说了一些发人深省的话，我会停下来思考一下。

And while I'm stopping and thinking about what you just said, I'm missing all your cues.

当我停下来思考你刚才所说的话时，我错过了你所有的暗示。

So all the skills that we teach, the labels, the mirrors, the open-ended questions, which seem like we're going back and plowing the ground again, we are.

因此，我们教授的所有技能、标签、镜子、开放式问题，看起来就像我们要回去重新耕地，我们确实是这样。

Because I didn't pick up all the information the first time, there's just more there than I can get.

因为我第一次并没有获得所有信息，所以那里的信息超出了我所能获得的范围。

And so I need to go back over it a couple of times with you, just so I get it right, without making you feel interrogated, you actually feel heard and you actually get to go back over it again.

所以我需要和你一起回顾几次，这样我就可以正确理解，而不会让你感到受到审问，你实际上会感到被倾听，并且你实际上可以再次回顾它。

So it becomes what seems to be an inefficient process, but it's actually me just double checking my information.

所以这看起来是一个低效的过程，但实际上我只是仔细检查了我的信息。

So if we're face-to-face, I'm going to ask you to repeat, but I'm not going to say, would you please repeat that?

因此，如果我们面对面，我会请你重复一遍，但我不会说，请你重复一遍好吗？

I'm going to get you to repeat without asking you to repeat.

我会让你重复，而不是要求你重复。

Andrew Huberman: Is the same true in online or text communications?

Andrew Huberman：在线或文本通信也是如此吗？

Chris Voss: The same thing is true.

克里斯·沃斯：同样的事情也是如此。

The problem with online and text is people try to bundle everything into one communication.

在线和文本的问题在于人们试图将所有内容捆绑到一种通信中。

The best analogy I can think of is if you were playing chess by text, would you put seven moves in your text?

我能想到的最好的类比是，如果您通过文本下棋，您会在文本中放入七步棋吗？

No, you'd only put one move in.

不，你只需要迈出一步。

So only try to get one point across in a text.

因此，只尝试在一篇文章中表达一个观点。

Don't explain, don't throw a whole bunch of stuff in text or emails.

不要解释，不要在文本或电子邮件中扔一大堆东西。

They're all almost always too long and it's going to come off as cold.

它们几乎总是太长，而且会显得很冷。

So do what you can to soften it.

所以尽你所能来软化它。

There's a documentary film that's been done on my company called "Tactical Empathy." Nick Nanton won 22, 23 Emmys.

我的公司拍摄了一部纪录片，名为“战术同理心”。尼克·南顿 (Nick Nanton) 荣获 22 项、23 项艾美奖。

The filmmaker, DNA films.

电影制片人，DNA 电影。

It was finished last year.

去年就完成了。

It's not out yet.

还没出来呢

For a variety of reasons, we haven't put it out.

由于种种原因，我们一直没有把它放出来。

So we screened the thing in Vegas last year.

所以我们去年在维加斯放映了这件事。

I see it.

我看到了。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I'm not a good judge of a film about me.

我不能很好地评判一部关于我的电影。

I'm going to love it no matter what.

无论如何我都会喜欢它。

It's about me.

是关于我的。

But I tell Nick that night, oh, man, I love it.

但那天晚上我告诉尼克，哦，伙计，我喜欢它。

This is great.

这太棒了。

Two days later, I find out.

两天后我就知道了。

I realize there's a huge problem.

我意识到有一个很大的问题。

I've already told him it's okay.

我已经告诉他没关系了。

I'm going to text him and then I'm going to call him and we got to fix it now.

我要给他发短信，然后给他打电话，我们现在就解决这个问题。

It's a Sunday text message.

这是周日的短信。

I sent him a two-line text.

我给他发了一条两行短信。

Is now a bad time to talk?

现在不是说话的好时机吗？

I got something you don't want to hear.

我有话你不想听。

Two lines.

两行。

Now.

现在。

What were my other options?

我的其他选择是什么？

I could have called him.

我本来可以给他打电话的。

Nick and I got a great relationship.

尼克和我的关系很好。

I call him.

我打电话给他。

If he's in a position to pick up the phone.

如果他能接电话的话。

Doesn't matter what he's doing.

他在做什么并不重要。

He's going to answer the phone.

他要去接电话。

He was in the middle of a Zoom call.

他正在 Zoom 通话中。

If I'd have called, he'd have picked up during the Zoom call and both conversations would have been bad.

如果我打电话，他就会在 Zoom 通话期间接听，两次谈话都会很糟糕。

He immediately fires back to me, I'm in the middle of a Zoom call.

他立即向我回击，我正在 Zoom 通话中。

I'll call you in a half an hour.

半小时后我给你打电话。

He already knows he ain't going to like what he's going to hear.

他已经知道他不会喜欢他将要听到的内容。

I'm prepping him for bad news.

我正在让他做好坏消息的准备。

Get him on the phone, like, look, I know what I said.

让他打电话，就像，看，我知道我说了什么。

We got a problem.

我们遇到了问题。

We got to get Derek on camera.

我们得让德里克上镜。

Derek is a guy in my team.

德里克是我团队中的一个人。

I'm shocked that I haven't made him part of the documentary.

我很震惊我没有让他成为纪录片的一部分。

This is going to be incomplete without Derek.

如果没有德里克，这一切将是不完整的。

We got to get Derek on film.

我们得让德里克上电影。

We can't show this to anybody else until we get him on film and make a part of it immediately.

在我们把他拍成电影并立即成为其中的一部分之前，我们不能向其他任何人展示这一点。

He's in problem solving mode.

他正处于解决问题的模式。

He goes, okay, I got to get a crew to Derek or get Derek to a crew.

他说，好吧，我必须派一个工作人员去找德里克，或者让德里克去找一个工作人员。

I need to know when we can do it.

我需要知道我们什么时候可以做到。

We got another showing of the films scheduled in LA, less than a month away.

距离我们还有不到一个月的时间，我们又在洛杉矶放映了这部电影。

Says, I got to get Derek on camera and we got to edit it.

说，我得让德里克上镜，我们得剪辑它。

And it's going to take three weeks of editing.

编辑需要三周的时间。

I said, I'll get you access to Derek's camera.

我说，我会让你使用德里克的相机。

He goes, done.

他走了，完成了。

Or Derek's calendar.

或者德里克的日历。

He says, done.

他说，完成了。

It's done.

完成了。

We go through this whole conversation in less than ten minutes.

我们在不到十分钟的时间内就完成了整个谈话。

Now think of the normal negotiation.

现在想想正常的谈判。

Hey, Nick, how are you?

嘿，尼克，你好吗？

What's going on today?

今天发生什么事了？

Are you in a good mood?

你心情好吗？

Hey, how the kids doing?

嘿，孩子们怎么样？

All this time-wasting conversation?

这么多浪费时间的谈话？

If I had set him up with that also, he could have legitimately said, are you out of your mind?

如果我也让他这么做，他可能会理直气壮地说，你疯了吗？

We've been working on this for a year.

我们为此已经努力了一年。

You didn't bring this up in a year.

你已经一年没提这件事了。

Not only that, you already told me two days ago at the showing in Vegas that you loved it.

不仅如此，两天前你在维加斯的演出中已经告诉我你喜欢它。

And now, a year and a half into this project, you're bringing up all these new problems.

现在，这个项目已经进行了一年半，你又提出了所有这些新问题。

That would have been the normal negotiation.

这本来就是正常的谈判。

But since we got a highly collaborative relationship, I ...

但由于我们建立了高度合作的关系，我...

two-line text, we're done in ten minutes.

两行文本，我们十分钟内就完成了。

Now, since Nick's a very generous guy, when he gets done, and he says, by the way, you understand how much this is going to cost me?

现在，由于尼克是一个非常慷慨的人，当他完成后，他说，顺便说一句，你知道这会让我花多少钱吗？

This is three weeks of editing.

这是三个星期的编辑。

This is three hours of shooting and three weeks of editing.

这是三个小时的拍摄和三周的剪辑。

I go, yeah.

我去，是的。

He goes, but I'm happy to do it.

他走了，但我很乐意这么做。

Calls him back the next day.

第二天给他回电话。

He's got a favor to ask me.

他有件事要拜托我。

You got it.

你明白了。

Doesn't matter what it is.

它是什么并不重要。

Because we'd gone through what would have been a very complicated negotiation that started on text, and I sent him a two-line text on a Sunday, and we got to solve that fast.

因为我们经历了一场非常复杂的谈判，从文字开始，我在周日给他发了一条两行文字，我们必须快速解决。

Andrew Huberman: So if I understand it correctly, by setting the context in a very direct and succinct way, right.

Andrew Huberman：所以如果我理解正确的话，通过以非常直接和简洁的方式设置上下文，对吧。

He goes into it in a problem-solving mode with you.

他会以一种解决问题的方式与你一起探讨。

Whereas if you do the tour of all the things that are going well in life.

而如果你游览生活中所有进展顺利的事情。

Chris Voss: Yeah.

克里斯·沃斯：是的。

Andrew Huberman: We'll keep this PG.

Andrew Huberman：我们会保留这位控球后卫。

The mud sandwich approach.

泥三明治方法。

They teach you that when you get a laboratory, most scientists have no skill running a business, right?

他们告诉你，当你拥有一个实验室时，大多数科学家都没有经营企业的技能，对吗？

You get a laboratory, all you've done is experiments, and then suddenly you're in charge of people managing budgets and all this stuff.

你有一个实验室，你所做的只是实验，然后突然你负责管理预算和所有这些东西。

Most scientists, 99% of scientists, are completely unqualified to do the job they do at the level of running a laboratory.

大多数科学家，99%的科学家，完全没有资格从事他们所从事的实验室管理工作。

When they start, you learn it on the job, and eventually you end up having to let somebody go.

当他们开始时，你会在工作中学到它，最终你不得不解雇某人。

And so the typical thing they teach you in these online training things is you tell somebody something nice, then you give them the bad news, and then you tell them something nice on exit.

因此，他们在这些在线培训中教给你的典型事情是你告诉某人一些好消息，然后你给他们坏消息，然后你在退出时告诉他们一些好消息。

Right?

正确的？

That's kind of the mud, so to speak, sandwich.

可以说，这是一种泥浆，三明治。

This is not that.

这不是那个。

What you're talking about is saying, hey, this is the problem.

你所说的意思是，嘿，这就是问题所在。

You're not going to like the problem, or there is a problem, you're not going to like it.

你不会喜欢这个问题，或者有一个问题，你也不会喜欢它。

So that they show up with the context of solving a problem as opposed to giving them the tour of all the things that are going well, and then the problem is really in contrast to that.

这样他们就会以解决问题的背景出现，而不是让他们参观所有进展顺利的事情，然后问题实际上与此形成鲜明对比。

And then it's like, what I love about what you're describing is it's direct, it's honest.

然后，我喜欢你所描述的内容，因为它很直接、很诚实。

You're not doing the tour of the garden before you take them down to the septic tank.

在把它们带到化粪池之前，你并没有游览花园。

Chris Voss: It's what I would call the difference between being blunt and being a straight shooter.

克里斯·沃斯：这就是我所说的直言不讳和直言不讳之间的区别。

A straight shooter tells you the truth.

一个直率的射手告诉你真相。

They just tell it in a way that lands softly.

他们只是以一种柔和的方式讲述它。

Andrew Huberman: Let's talk about breakups, business breakups, romantic breakups.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们来谈谈分手、生意分手、感情分手。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

You breaking up with me?

你要和我分手吗？

Andrew Huberman: No, but thanks for the hypothesis test.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不，但感谢你的假设检验。

No, in fact, I'm enjoying this conversation so much as I always do.

不，事实上，我一如既往地享受这次谈话。

I'm learning a ton from you that, if anything, I'd like to expand and deepen our relationship.

我从你身上学到了很多东西，如果有的话，我想扩大和加深我们的关系。

Chris, there.

克里斯，在那儿。

You got a lot of knowledge out of me.

你从我这里学到了很多知识。

Platonic and professional, but expansive.

柏拉图式的、专业的，但是广阔的。

What is the process of ending a relationship?

结束一段关系的流程是怎样的？

And again, this could be romantic relationship, could be business relationship, could be employer, employee, could be individuals.

再说一次，这可能是浪漫关系，可能是商业关系，可能是雇主、雇员，也可能是个人。

Could be telling a whole group or an entire group telling an individual.

可能是告诉整个群体，也可能是整个群体告诉一个人。

The reason I raised this as a particular example is that I'm assuming that both sides don't want the same thing.

我之所以提出这个作为一个特定的例子，是因为我假设双方都不想要同样的事情。

One side wants to continue, the other side wants it to end.

一方想要继续，另一方则想要结束。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: I'll avoid the use of the word win-win, or the words win-win, excuse me, and just ask, is there a way to have that conversation in any of the context I just mentioned in, as you so beautifully described it, a straight shooter manner?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我会避免使用“双赢”这个词，或者“双赢”这个词，对不起，请问，有没有一种方法可以在我刚才提到的任何上下文中以一种直截了当的方式进行对话，正如你所描述的那样？

Where it's direct, it's honest, but it lands soft, because what we're talking about here is feelings of rejection, and nobody likes feeling rejected.

它是直接的、诚实的，但它却很软，因为我们在这里谈论的是被拒绝的感觉，没有人喜欢被拒绝的感觉。

I don't know anybody that likes being fired, even from jobs they don't like, people's egos suffer.

我不知道有谁喜欢被解雇，即使是他们不喜欢的工作，人们的自尊心也会受到损害。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: So is there maybe a more specific way of asking?

Andrew Huberman：那么是否有更具体的询问方式？

The question is, is there a way to encourage the person getting the bad news, to get their ego out of the way and see that if both parties don't want it, it's best for everybody involved?

问题是，有没有一种方法可以鼓励听到坏消息的人，摆脱他们的自负，并看到如果双方都不想要它，这对每个参与其中的人来说都是最好的？

Chris Voss: I almost want to say no. But first, what are the caveats?

克里斯·沃斯：我几乎想说不。但首先，有哪些注意事项？

Most of the time, when people are struggling with this, they're not trying to save the other side, they're trying to save themselves.

大多数时候，当人们陷入困境时，他们并不是在试图拯救对方，而是在试图拯救自己。

So who are you really trying to save by postponing it, softening it, trying to act like it's something that it's not.

那么，你真正想通过推迟它、软化它、试图表现得好像它不是这样来拯救谁。

I don't know that anybody has ever been fired that didn't have a sense that it was coming.

我不知道有谁在被解雇时没有意识到这一点即将到来。

The person that was getting ready to fire them opens up by saying, how are you?

准备解雇他们的人开口说道，你好吗？

They know how the other person is and a person getting ready to get fired has got some gut instinct that things are going wrong.

他们知道对方的情况如何，而一个准备被解雇的人有一些直觉，认为事情出了问题。

Like you said, the gut's very powerful, so you got to lower the boom as quickly as you can, but also as gently as you can.

就像你说的，肠道非常强大，所以你必须尽快降低吊杆，但也要尽可能轻柔。

I was involved in a nonprofit a number of years ago affiliated with a church, and we're struggling whether or not to let the executive director go.

几年前，我参与了一个附属于教堂的非营利组织，我们正在纠结是否要让执行董事离开。

I go to the minister of the church, Norman Vincent Peale's protege, a guy named Arthur Caliandro, one of the best human beings I've ever met in my life.

我去找教会牧师，诺曼·文森特·皮尔的门徒，名叫亚瑟·卡利安德罗，他是我一生中见过的最好的人之一。

Phenomenal guy.

非凡的家伙。

And I'm struggling with.

而我正在挣扎着。

I thought firing, letting this woman go was going to be bad, and I thought Arthur was going to counsel me a way out.

我认为解雇，让这个女人离开是很糟糕的，而且我认为亚瑟会建议我一条出路。

And he looked at me and he ...

他看着我，然后……

There's.

有的。

There's no gentle way to cut somebody's head off.

没有温和的方法可以砍掉某人的头。

And I thought, yeah, the humane thing here is, how do you bring it to conclusion as quickly as possible?

我想，是的，这里人性化的事情是，你如何尽快得出结论？

Because there's no humane way to cut somebody's head off.

因为没有人道的方法可以砍掉某人的头。

There's no humane way to terminate the relationship.

没有人道的方式可以终止这种关系。

Now, what are the caveats?

现在，有哪些注意事项？

Maybe there are first caveat.

也许有第一个警告。

If you're going to fire somebody, never fire somebody on a Friday.

如果你要解雇某人，千万不要在星期五解雇某人。

Fire them on a Monday.

周一解雇他们。

Fire them on a Monday.

周一解雇他们。

They got a work week to work their way out of it.

他们有一周的工作时间来摆脱困境。

You fire them on a Friday, they get a weekend to be miserable and to feel horrible, and they can't do anything about it.

你在周五解雇他们，他们整个周末都会感到痛苦和可怕，但他们对此无能为力。

Caught off guard or not, on a Monday, they can pick themselves up.

不管是否措手不及，在周一，他们都能振作起来。

They can start looking for a new job.

他们可以开始寻找新工作。

No matter who you are.

不管你是谁。

Fire them on a Friday.

在周五解雇他们。

They can't start looking for a new job on a Saturday.

他们无法在周六开始寻找新工作。

It's two days of misery.

这是痛苦的两天。

So, yeah, if you're going to fire somebody, fire them on a Monday, not on a Friday.

所以，是的，如果你要解雇某人，请在星期一解雇他们，而不是星期五。

If you got bad news to give somebody, warn them it's coming.

如果你有坏消息要告诉某人，请警告他们即将到来。

People are ridiculously resilient to pain.

人们对痛苦的抵抗力惊人。

If warned and then that, you lower the boom.

如果收到警告，然后您就会降低吊杆。

You're not going to like what I have to say.

你不会喜欢我要说的话。

It's going to be heartbreaking.

这将会令人心碎。

You're going to hate me.

你会恨我的。

Hesitate no more than 3 seconds.

犹豫不超过3秒。

They got their guard up.

他们提高了警惕。

Let them have the bad news.

让他们知道坏消息吧。

That's the humane way to cut somebody's head off.

这是砍掉某人头颅的人道方式。

Don't linger.

别逗留了。

Don't make them think that.

别让他们这么想。

How are the kids?

孩子们怎么样？

How are you?

你好吗？

I care about you.

我很在乎你。

You're a great human being.

你是一个伟大的人。

None of the stuff at the beginning.

一开始的东西都没有。

Warn them bad news is coming and hit them with the bad news.

警告他们坏消息即将到来，并用坏消息打击他们。

Rip the Band-Aid off.

撕掉创可贴。

The pain is not.

疼痛则不然。

If you try to rip the Band-Aid off.

如果你试图撕掉创可贴。

Slowly.

慢慢地。

That's excruciating.

这太令人难以忍受了。

You're trying to save yourself.

你正试图拯救自己。

So if you got to terminate a relationship, regardless of what it is, the quicker you do it, the less painless it is, the sooner people can move on.

因此，如果你必须终止一段关系，无论是什么关系，你做得越快，痛苦就越少，人们就能越早继续前进。

Stop trying to save yourself.

别再试图拯救自己了。

Realize how human beings handle pain.

了解人类如何处理疼痛。

If anything, human beings are incredibly resilient if given the opportunity to brace themselves first.

如果说有什么不同的话，那就是，如果有机会首先振作起来，人类就会具有令人难以置信的韧性。

Andrew Huberman: I agree.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我同意。

Thank you for that.

谢谢你。

There's a concept that a lot of people haven't heard of, and I'm confident in saying that because I hadn't heard of it until recently, despite spending a lot of time in the literature around dopamine and motivation.

有一个很多人都没有听说过的概念，我有信心这么说，因为我直到最近才听说过它，尽管我花了很多时间在有关多巴胺和动机的文献上。

And it's a term from psychology that is being used a little bit more now.

这是一个心理学术语，现在使用得更多一些。

And it's ego depletion.

这是自我耗尽。

Yeah, it's an interesting concept, and I've been wanting to run this by you for a while, but I saved it for our discussion today.

是的，这是一个有趣的概念，我一直想由你来运行这个概念，但我把它保留下来供我们今天讨论。

It turns out ego depletion is a lot like decision fatigue.

事实证明，自我损耗很像决策疲劳。

We all heard the Steve Jobs thing.

我们都听说过史蒂夫·乔布斯的事。

He wore a black turtleneck every day because he didn't have to make that decision, so he had more energy to make other decisions.

他每天都穿着黑色高领毛衣，因为他不用做那个决定，这样他就有更多的精力去做其他的决定。

I've been accused of doing the same because of my black long sleeve shirts, but there's a whole other reason for that that some people might know.

由于我的黑色长袖衬衫，我也被指责做同样的事情，但有些人可能知道还有其他原因。

But anyway, it's unimportant in the moment, but ego depletion is a little bit different than decision fatigue or decision budget.

但无论如何，目前这并不重要，但自我损耗与决策疲劳或决策预算有点不同。

The idea with ego depletion is pretty simple.

自我损耗的想法非常简单。

It's that the molecule dopamine does many things in the brain.

多巴胺分子在大脑中发挥着许多作用。

But one of the things that it absolutely does is it holds us to goal-directed behavior that's associated with our sense of self.

但它绝对要做的事情之一是它让我们采取与我们的自我意识相关的目标导向的行为。

Like, I want to accomplish this.

就像，我想完成这个。

I want to get to that.

我想要做到这一点。

And the whole notion of ego depletion involves the idea, and this has been a data-substantiated observation, that when people have to fight to be right or to defend their position for a period of time, eventually that depletes.

自我损耗的整个概念涉及这样一个想法，这是一个经过数据证实的观察，即当人们必须为正确而奋斗或在一段时间内捍卫自己的立场时，最终自我会耗尽。

And it seems to be, at least in part, dopamine mediated, because defending one's position takes work.

这似乎至少在一定程度上是由多巴胺介导的，因为捍卫自己的立场需要付出努力。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: Earlier, you talked about running somebody down, wearing them out.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：早些时候，你谈到过让某人失望，让他们筋疲力尽。

And I wonder, as I just throw this concept out to you, cold here, whether or not that calls to mind any examples from your work where you felt like, okay, this person could really hold, but if I just kept pressing, eventually they'd tilt.

我想知道，当我刚刚把这个概念抛给你时，冷冰冰的，这是否会让你想起你工作中的任何例子，你觉得，好吧，这个人真的可以坚持，但如果我继续施压，最终他们会倾斜。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: And it's different than the kind of fatigue that comes from a conversation that starts at 3 in the afternoon and ends at 2:30 in the morning.

Andrew Huberman：这与下午 3 点开始到凌晨 2:30 结束的谈话所带来的疲劳不同。

We've all been there.

我们都去过那里。

I've been in those conversations.

我参与过那些谈话。

Usually they're not very pleasant.

通常他们不太令人愉快。

And at 3 in the morning, everyone's peeling apart.

凌晨三点，大家都散了。

I've learned over the years, you clip it at 9:30 and you try and shift.

多年来我了解到，你在 9:30 剪掉它，然后尝试换档。

Right.

正确的。

One of the worst pieces of advice I've ever heard is you'd never go to sleep angry.

我听过的最糟糕的建议之一就是永远不要带着愤怒入睡。

It's like, no, actually get sleep, wake up and then revisit the problem if the situation allows.

就像，不，实际上去睡觉，醒来，然后在情况允许的情况下重新审视问题。

That's my belief, anyway.

无论如何，这就是我的信念。

Yeah.

是的。

Trying to stay up all night trying to work something out is just counter biology.

试图熬夜试图解决问题是反生物学的。

So ego depletion.

所以自我耗尽。

I have a feeling a lot of what you did in your profession was running down their dopamine to the point where then they are operating from a different place where they're not defending the ego, they're actually thinking more practically about the whole situation.

我有一种感觉，你在职业中所做的很多事情都是在降低他们的多巴胺，然后他们在一个不同的地方运作，他们不再捍卫自我，而是实际上更实际地思考整个情况。

Does it have any kind of texture of meaning to you?

它对你来说有什么意义吗？

Chris Voss: Yeah, no, I would agree and I would draw the distinction.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，不，我同意并且我会区分。

First of all, in hostage negotiation, there's two kind of hostage takings.

首先，在人质谈判中，劫持人质有两种情况。

If there's a demand and there's going to be contained and uncontained, which is just literal definition, contained is bad guys in a bank, like at the Chase Bank in Brooklyn way back when, you got them surrounded, they can't get away — and uncontained is a kidnapping.

如果有需求，就会有被遏制和不受遏制的情况，这只是字面的定义，被遏制是银行里的坏人，就像很久以前在布鲁克林的大通银行一样，你把他们包围了，他们无法逃脱——而不受遏制就是绑架。

You don't know where they are.

你不知道他们在哪里。

Uncontained, unknown location.

不受控制，位置未知。

We're going to try to get our way in a contained situation, probably by ego depletion, wearing them out, getting to the point where they're just going to give in because they're tired, because they're going to come out, we're going to put handcuffs on them, which means that if the ego gets recharged, they're going to go back and they're going to think back over the deal.

我们将尝试在一个受约束的情况下采取我们的方式，可能是通过自我耗尽，让他们精疲力尽，达到他们因为累而屈服的地步，因为他们要出来，我们会给他们戴上手铐，这意味着如果自我重新充电，他们就会回去并重新考虑这笔交易。

So wearing somebody out in a business negotiation, it's basically uncontained because even if you come to an agreement, there's a whole implementation phase.

因此，在商务谈判中让某人疲惫不堪，这基本上是不受控制的，因为即使你达成协议，也有一个完整的实施阶段。

Did you get the agreement because you wore them out?

你是因为厌倦了才得到协议的吗？

Because they get tired, because they just gave in.

因为他们累了，因为他们屈服了。

At some point in time, they're going to get recharged and they're going to get recharged while you're in implementation.

在某个时间点，他们会得到充电，并且在你实施的时候他们会得到充电。

So they're either going to not going to follow the terms of the deal or at the slightest opportunity, they're going to deviate.

因此，他们要么不遵守交易条款，要么一有机会就会偏离。

I think ego depletion is a real thing and it's a bad way to get a business deal that's going to stick.

我认为自我损耗是真实存在的，这对于达成一笔持久的商业交易来说是一种糟糕的方式。

Andrew Huberman: Because they rest and then they come back a different person.

安德鲁·休伯曼：因为他们休息了，然后他们回来时就变成了另一个人。

Chris Voss: Yeah, they're going to be recharged, their ego is going to be recharged.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，他们会得到充电，他们的自我会得到充电。

And if you got the agreement based on a depletion of their ego, that battery is going to get charged back up again.

如果你是基于他们的自我耗尽而达成的协议，那么电池就会再次充电。

Whether it's a business deal, whether it's a personal negotiation, you have a disagreement with your significant other, and you follow that bad advice.

无论是商业交易，还是个人谈判，你和你的另一半有分歧，你就会听从那个糟糕的建议。

Don't go to bed angry.

不要带着生气去睡觉。

And so you stay up till three in the morning and you think you come to a resolution.

于是你熬夜到凌晨三点，你认为你已经做出了决定。

Everybody gets a good night's sleep the next day.

第二天每个人都能睡个好觉。

They feel completely differently about what they said the night before.

他们对前一天晚上所说的话有完全不同的感觉。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I might have heard of that happening once or twice.

Andrew Huberman：是的，我可能听说过这种事发生过一两次。

Chris Voss: Saw it in a movie, right?

克里斯·沃斯：在电影中看到过，对吧？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, saw it in a movie.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，在电影中看到过。

A friend explained that situation to me earlier.

之前有朋友向我解释过这个情况。

You mentioned approaching a conversation in a playful way.

你提到以一种有趣的方式进行对话。

Chris Voss: Right?

克里斯·沃斯：对吗？

Andrew Huberman: Like, all right, this might even be life or death, but let's play this like a game, because you can see more opportunities.

安德鲁·休伯曼：好吧，这甚至可能是生死攸关，但让我们像玩游戏一样玩这个，因为你可以看到更多机会。

Now, we know that when we are relaxed, we see the big picture.

现在，我们知道，当我们放松时，我们可以看到大局。

When we're tense, everything narrows.

当我们紧张时，一切都会变得狭窄。

Tunnel vision.

隧道视野。

Tunnel vision, tunnel thinking, tunnel everything.

视野狭隘，思维狭隘，一切都狭隘。

We lose access to the full toolkit.

我们无法访问完整的工具包。

So you obviously take really good care of yourself.

所以你显然非常照顾自己。

You're fit, you're in shape, you always seem calm.

你很健康，你的身材很好，你看起来总是很平静。

I'm sure you have your moments like anybody else.

我相信你和其他人一样也有属于自己的时刻。

But what are some of the things that good negotiators do all the time?

但优秀的谈判者总是会做哪些事情呢？

So that when the bell goes off and they have to respond, they are ready?

那么当铃声响起而他们必须做出反应时，他们准备好了吗？

And the reason I ask this is because we've been talking about negotiations in kind of a vacuum, like it's happening, and then how does one handle it?

我之所以问这个问题，是因为我们一直在真空中谈论谈判，就像它正在发生一样，然后人们如何处理它？

But like any athlete, like any teacher, like any parent, like any kid, everybody has to be ready for real-life circumstances.

但就像任何运动员、任何老师、任何家长、任何孩子一样，每个人都必须为现实生活中的情况做好准备。

And we don't always get the warning.

而且我们并不总是收到警告。

We don't get the memo that it's happening in two weeks.

我们没有收到两周后会发生的备忘录。

And sometimes the conversations around courtroom drama or the big day, it implies that we get the warning.

有时，围绕法庭戏剧或重要日子的对话，意味着我们收到了警告。

But more often than not, it's a phone call or a text, and it comes in and boom, it just hits us.

但更多时候，它是一个电话或一条短信，当它打进来时，它就击中了我们。

And suddenly we are in negotiations and we didn't get time to prepare, right?

突然之间我们就开始谈判了，我们没有时间准备，对吧？

So maybe we could talk about readiness, and then we could talk about ...

所以也许我们可以讨论准备情况，然后我们可以讨论......

Again, maybe this sounds trivial to you, but for me, I'd be very curious to know whether or not you have any practices of stilling yourself, what those look like, what you've seen other people use to be able to get themselves into the moment of being able to show up their best self.

再说一次，也许这对你来说听起来微不足道，但对我来说，我很想知道你是否有任何让自己平静下来的做法，这些做法是什么样的，你看到其他人用什么来让自己能够展现出最好的自己。

Chris Voss: Yeah, well, readiness, small-stakes practice for high-stakes results.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，好吧，准备好，以小风险练习以获得高风险结果。

I will occasionally find myself in the middle of a negotiation that I didn't expect if I've been throwing out stuff on a regular basis on my way during the day.

如果我白天经常扔东西，我偶尔会发现自己正处于一场意想不到的谈判中。

Verbal observations, what we refer to as labels, because the label seems like something just crossed your mind.

口头观察，我们称之为标签，因为标签似乎只是你脑海中闪过的东西。

Is a label in the middle of a negotiation, when I see you hesitate or look to the side, how do I get ready for that?

是不是一个厂牌在谈判的过程中，当我看到你犹豫或者看向一边时，我该如何准备？

I'm on my way over here to this interview.

我正在来这里接受采访的路上。

I'm both talking to my Lyft driver the whole way, getting him to talk.

一路上我都在和我的 Lyft 司机交谈，让他开口说话。

Also being careful about not tapping the gas tank out completely so that I'm fatigued when I get here.

还要小心不要完全打开油箱，以免我到达这里时感到疲劳。

I talk up to Lyft drivers on a regular basis.

我定期与 Lyft 司机交谈。

The interactions, TSA guys in the airport, I'll throw a label at them.

机场里的 TSA 人员的互动，我会给他们贴上标签。

Seems like a tough day.

看来这是艰难的一天。

Tough day.

艰难的一天。

Seems like you're in a good mood, and whether right or wrong, I'm getting in.

看来你心情不错，不管对错，我都进去了。

I'm trying to stay loose.

我正在努力保持放松。

I'm trying to keep the mental muscles limber, and it just becomes a bit of a habit on a regular basis.

我努力让精神肌肉保持灵活，这逐渐成为一种定期的习惯。

Occasionally, I'll throw something out.

有时候，我会扔掉一些东西。

Now, I'm talking about Lyft drivers.

现在，我谈论的是 Lyft 司机。

If I'm in a bad mood ...

如果我心情不好的话...

I get into a Lyft a couple of weeks ago on my way home.

几周前，我在回家的路上乘坐了一辆 Lyft。

Lyft driver is not helpful.

Lyft 司机没有帮助。

I mean, I'm coming out of the airport.

我是说，我正从机场出来。

I'm struggling with my bags.

我正在为我的行李而烦恼。

Not lifting a finger; doesn't open up the rear.

连一根手指头也不举；不打开后部。

I got to open up the rear of the vehicle myself.

我必须亲自打开车辆的后部。

I got to load the bags, everything.

我得把袋子装上，所有东西都装上。

I get in, and he's just seething unhappiness.

我进去了，他只是感到不高兴。

Now, I know that if I say, what do you love about what you do for a living?

现在，我知道如果我说，你热爱你所从事的工作的什么？

I immediately trigger what Tony Robbins would call a state change.

我立即触发托尼·罗宾斯所说的状态变化。

And I'm annoyed at this guy.

我对这个人很恼火。

And our pheromones are combative, but I'm thinking, like, I just don't need this.

我们的信息素是好斗的，但我在想，我只是不需要这个。

And so I go, what do you love about driving for Lyft?

那么我想问一下，您喜欢为 Lyft 开车的什么？

This guy proceeds to unload on me, on all his personal struggles, that I feel like a complete jerk for being angry at him, at everything that he's going through.

这个家伙开始向我倾诉他所有的个人挣扎，让我觉得自己像个彻头彻尾的混蛋，因为对他、对他所经历的一切感到愤怒。

And I'm just trying to get myself out of a bad mood and to keep from sending him a really negative vibe the whole way so that he doesn't drive 45 miles an hour in a 65-miles-an-hour lane and make it inflict me with a longer and more expensive ride because I'm so annoying as a customer.

我只是想让自己摆脱坏心情，避免一路上给他带来真正的负面情绪，这样他就不会在时速 65 英里的车道上以时速 45 英里的速度行驶，从而让我承受更长、更昂贵的车程，因为我作为顾客太烦人了。

But I've got a habit of small-stakes practice for high-stakes results.

但我有一个习惯，就是用小赌注练习以获得高赌注的结果。

And who do I get a practice on?

我该找谁练习？

The Lyft drivers on a regular basis.

Lyft 司机定期提供服务。

The guy behind the counter at the hotel, the TSA guy.

酒店柜台后面的那个人，美国运输安全管理局 (TSA) 的人。

I'm going through TSA.

我正在办理 TSA。

The grocery store clerk, the Starbucks person.

杂货店店员，星巴克人。

The only way I'm at my best in my negotiations is just trying to keep my negotiation muscles limber by interacting with people throughout the course of my day and then ideally leaving them better than I found them.

我在谈判中处于最佳状态的唯一方法就是通过整天与人互动来保持我的谈判肌肉灵活，然后理想地让他们比我发现的更好。

Trying not to leave negative karma in my wake.

努力不留下负面业力。

Trying to leave as much positive karma in my wake as possible.

试图在我身后留下尽可能多的积极业力。

Andrew Huberman: I love that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这个。

And I'm very familiar with the feeling of needing to conserve my voice for podcasting, or energy for things.

我非常熟悉需要为播客保留声音或为事情保留精力的感觉。

And yet I'm somebody who's, I think, genuinely curious about what people's experiences are.

但我认为，我是一个真正对人们的经历感到好奇的人。

So I like the question, how's your day going?

所以我喜欢这个问题，你今天过得怎么样？

It's pretty open-ended.

这是相当开放式的。

I suppose if somebody was really upset, that would be perhaps the worst question I could possibly ask, from what you just described.

我想如果有人真的很沮丧，根据你刚才的描述，这可能是我能问的最糟糕的问题。

Chris Voss: Well, and I'll put a fine point on it too, because I've manipulated them with, what do you love about ...

克里斯·沃斯：嗯，我也会强调一点，因为我用它们来操纵它们，你喜欢什么......

because you watch them change in the moment to immediately to shift into this concept of love, which is more than like, what do you like about driving for Lyft?

因为你看到他们在那一刻发生变化，立即转变为这种爱的概念，这不仅仅是，你喜欢为 Lyft 开车什么？

What do you love about driving for Lyft?

您喜欢为 Lyft 开车的哪些方面？

I can trigger a state change in you instantaneously no matter what kind of mood you're in, because this guy was in a very bad mood.

不管你是什么心情，我都能瞬间引发你的状态变化，因为这家伙心情很不好。

Plus additionally, the download from that typically is so quick.

另外，下载速度通常非常快。

I'm going to get a real clear picture on who you are really fast.

我很快就能真正清楚地了解你是谁。

I'm talking to a CEO of a company a couple of months ago, for lack of a better term, they're delivering clean water to the world.

几个月前，我与一家公司的首席执行官交谈，由于缺乏更好的术语，他们正在向世界提供清洁的水。

And I'm like, that's a cool mission.

我想，这是一个很酷的任务。

Like I dig this as an entrepreneur, an entrepreneur wanting to make a dent in the universe.

就像我作为一名企业家，一名想要在宇宙中有所作为的企业家所挖掘的那样。

I dig that.

我很喜欢这个。

Like I'm trying to make a difference in the world.

就像我正在努力改变世界一样。

So I say to him, what do you love about what you do for a living?

所以我对他说，你热爱你所从事的工作的什么？

He immediately fires back at me, I love leading teams.

他立即向我反击，我喜欢领导团队。

I love leading teams and I love giving shareholders a great return on their investment.

我喜欢领导团队，也喜欢为股东的投资带来丰厚的回报。

It's really important for me to give shareholders a great return.

为股东带来丰厚的回报对我来说非常重要。

And then, yeah, we deliver water.

然后，是的，我们送水。

And then he said a fourth thing and I thought, this guy could be doing toilet paper.

然后他说了第四件事，我想，这家伙可能是在做卫生纸。

He doesn't care about the mission of the company at all.

他根本不关心公司的使命。

He's a great CEO, probably because you want a CEO to lead teams.

他是一位出色的首席执行官，可能是因为你需要一位首席执行官来领导团队。

You want a CEO deliver, a corporate CEO to deliver a return on investment for shareholders.

你希望一位首席执行官能够为股东带来投资回报，一位企业首席执行官能够为股东带来回报。

But that's why he's a great corporate CEO and not a great entrepreneurial CEO.

但这就是为什么他是一位伟大的企业首席执行官，而不是一位伟大的企业家首席执行官。

So by him giving me that download real quick, that was blatantly honest, like, do I think this is a great guy?

所以他很快就给了我下载，这是非常诚实的，就像，我认为这是一个很棒的人吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Do our core values line up?

我们的核心价值观一致吗？

My mission is more important to me than his mission or his mission is making money.

我的使命对我来说比他的使命或他的使命是赚钱更重要。

Now, I like making money, but it's not number one, it's a strong number two.

现在，我喜欢赚钱，但这不是第一，而是第二。

But that question, instead of how are you today?

但这个问题不是你今天好吗？

To what do you love about you?

你爱你什么？

Immediately put them in a better place.

立即将它们安置在更好的地方。

Plus, you get some ridiculously candid answers that tells you who they are real fast.

另外，你还会得到一些极其坦诚的答案，很快就能告诉你他们是谁。

Andrew Huberman: What is the best way to approach our response to somebody who's asking to be heard?

Andrew Huberman：我们对那些要求倾听的人做出回应的最佳方式是什么？

Perhaps they've got complaints, maybe about us, maybe about somebody else.

也许他们有抱怨，也许是关于我们的，也许是关于别人的。

People who are venting.

正在发泄的人。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: People seem to vary on the propensity-to-vent spectrum.

Andrew Huberman：人们的发泄倾向似乎各不相同。

Some people just, they vent all the time.

有些人只是，他们一直在发泄。

This happened, that happened, and they want to complain.

这事发生了，那事发生了，他们想要抱怨。

The way it's sometimes described is they love to take other people's inventories.

有时被描述为他们喜欢盘点别人的清单。

They love to take inventories of everybody else's mistakes.

他们喜欢盘点其他人的错误。

They did this, they did that.

他们做了这个，他们做了那个。

It's a lot easier often than taking our own inventories of what we could be focused on and do better.

这通常比我们自己盘点我们可以专注于哪些事情并做得更好要容易得多。

That's a universal truth in my mind.

这是我心中的普遍真理。

But people approach other people that they trust and they want to vent, presumably to get over whatever it is that is bothering them.

但人们会接近他们信任的其他人，他们想要发泄，大概是为了克服困扰他们的任何事情。

But all too often, it seems to just amplify the feelings of frustration.

但很多时候，这似乎只会放大挫败感。

What do you do when somebody you care about and that cares about you comes to you to vent?

当你关心的人和关心你的人来找你发泄时，你会怎么做？

Is it just you let them vent?

难道只是你让他们发泄吗？

Or do you try and let them negotiate with themselves a little bit in a way that could help them more than if you were to just let them vent?

或者你是否尝试让他们与自己进行一些协商，这比让他们发泄更能帮助他们？

Chris Voss: I'm really leery of letting people vent because a lot of times it seems to be a spiral that just spirals out of control.

克里斯·沃斯：我真的很担心让人们发泄，因为很多时候这似乎是一个螺旋式的螺旋，而且会失控。

So why is somebody venting?

那么为什么有人要发泄呢？

They don't feel heard.

他们感觉没有被听到。

They feel ignored.

他们感觉自己被忽视了。

They feel like they've been wasting their time talking.

他们觉得自己一直在浪费时间说话。

They're frustrated.

他们很沮丧。

That's the feedback I'm going to give you feedback on what I'm guessing is causing you to vent.

这就是我要给你的反馈，我猜是什么导致了你的发泄。

In just an observation, it sounds like this is driving you crazy because nobody listens to you.

仅凭观察，这听起来会让你发疯，因为没有人听你的。

Sounds like you've been struggling with this for a long time.

听起来你已经为此苦苦挣扎了很长时间。

Sounds like this is very frustrating for you.

听起来这对你来说非常令人沮丧。

What's the emotion?

什么是情感？

The particular negative emotion, frustration, is about somebody being denied a goal in the future.

一种特殊的负面情绪，即挫败感，是指某人未来的目标被剥夺。

Anger is about somebody's upset about something happened in the past.

愤怒是指某人对过去发生的事情感到不安。

The type of negative emotion begins to focus you in on where they ...

负面情绪的类型开始让你关注它们……

Is it forward thinking or is it backward thinking, and frustration and anger can be two very different versions of the same negative emotion, but they're focused on different points in time.

是向前思考还是向后思考，沮丧和愤怒可能是同一负面情绪的两种截然不同的版本，但它们集中在不同的时间点。

So I'm going to try to intuitively, if I don't know from what you've told me, I'm going to start taking educated guesses on making an observation on what it is that's driving you?

因此，我将尝试凭直觉，如果我不知道你告诉我的内容，我将开始进行有根据的猜测，观察是什么在驱动你？

If you need to vent, you've been talking and people have been ignoring you, or you've been taking actions and people have been ignoring you, you need to vent because your communication or your actions have been ignored.

如果你需要发泄，你一直在说话，但人们一直忽视你，或者你一直在采取行动，但人们一直忽视你，你需要发泄，因为你的沟通或你的行为被忽视了。

There are some clues here, and the sooner that I get at the heart of what's bothering you, the sooner you're going to be able to let it off.

这里有一些线索，我越早了解困扰你的问题的核心，你就能越早摆脱它。

So I'm going to encourage letting the steam off without trying to correct you, without giving you advice, without frustrating you, by not listening to you, by trying to recognize verbally what some of the motivators are, which will deactivate the anger much more quickly.

因此，我会鼓励你发泄情绪，而不是试图纠正你，不给你建议，不让你沮丧，不听你的话，尝试口头上识别一些激励因素是什么，这会更快地平息愤怒。

It's the whole basis for a crisis hotline too begin with.

这也是危机热线的全部基础。

People are venting, and so how do you most effectively vent somebody so that instead of going on a rant for an hour and the rant introduced toxins into their system where they're poisoning themselves.

人们在发泄，那么你如何最有效地发泄某人，这样他们就不会咆哮一个小时，而咆哮会将毒素引入他们的系统，从而毒害自己。

I think negative emotions put toxins in our system.

我认为负面情绪会给我们的系统带来毒素。

How do I deactivate that as quickly so that you're not hurting yourself as much and you feel heard, you feel relieved, you feel listened to.

我怎样才能尽快停用它，这样你就不会那么伤害自己，并且你会感到被倾听，你感到宽慰，你感到被倾听。

If it involves me, if it's a close friend who's venting to you, you're involved in a situation to some degree, and I might even say, boy, it feels like you're probably frustrated because I haven't listened to you up to now, and I'm going to start taking some emotionally educated guesses on what I think is driving you, and I'm going to put it in the form of a label, which is just an observation.

如果涉及到我，如果是一个亲密的朋友向你发泄，你在某种程度上就陷入了某种情况，我什至可能会说，孩子，感觉你可能很沮丧，因为我到目前为止还没有听你的，我将开始对我认为驱动你的因素进行一些情感上的猜测，我将以标签的形式把它放在一个标签的形式上，这只是一个观察。

Seems like, sounds like, looks like, then if I get it wrong and you go, that's not it at all, I can say, well, that's just the way it seems.

看起来像，听起来像，看起来像，然后如果我弄错了，你走了，那根本就不是这样，我可以说，好吧，看起来就是这样。

It just seems that way.

看起来就是这样。

It puts you in a position to just let somebody know that you see them and you're doing your best to understand.

它让你能够让别人知道你看到了他们并且你正在尽力理解他们。

I'm not a fan of venting.

我不喜欢发泄。

If I go on a rant personally, I always feel worse.

如果我个人发牢骚，我总是感觉更糟。

So I want to deactivate that negativity so I can get my feet back under me emotionally.

所以我想消除这种消极情绪，这样我就能在情感上重新站稳脚跟。

Andrew Huberman: Very useful knowledge you just shared with us.

Andrew Huberman：您刚刚与我们分享的非常有用的知识。

Do you meditate?

你冥想吗？

Chris Voss: Tiny little bits.

克里斯·沃斯：一点点。

I mean, I'm trying to make my day more effective.

我的意思是，我正在努力让我的一天更加高效。

I have a gratitude exercise that I do almost every morning.

我几乎每天早上都会进行感恩练习。

Other ways to make myself effective, actually, I'm looking at the non-sleep deep rest practice because I like to make use of my time.

事实上，让自己变得高效的其他方法，我正在研究非睡眠深度休息练习，因为我喜欢利用我的时间。

I'm spiritual, so I'm talking to the Almighty on a regular basis.

我是有灵性的，所以我定期与全能者交谈。

Andrew Huberman: You pray?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你祈祷吗？

Chris Voss: I do, yeah.

克里斯·沃斯：我愿意，是的。

Andrew Huberman: The morning and night when you need to?

Andrew Huberman：早上和晚上你需要的时候？

Chris Voss: Both.

克里斯·沃斯：两者都有。

Yeah, both.

是的，两者都有。

I mean, I think whether or not you believe in one god or the universe or whatever it is, I think spirituality is an important component of health.

我的意思是，我认为无论你是否相信一个神或宇宙或其他什么，我认为灵性是健康的重要组成部分。

Whatever your spirituality is, and you should recognize it, and you'll be better off if you engage in some sort of a spiritual practice.

无论你的灵性是什么，你都应该认识到它，如果你从事某种灵性实践，你会过得更好。

It doesn't have to be any of the three major religions, but spirituality is a component of who we are.

它不一定是三大宗教中的任何一个，但灵性是我们的组成部分。

So, yeah, I practice that on a regular basis.

所以，是的，我定期练习。

Andrew Huberman: So, sense of higher power or to better define higher power.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，更高权力的感觉或者更好地定义更高权力。

It could be, as you said, aligned with conventional religion or just aligned with the idea that there are things outside of us that are important to pay attention to, that we can all do better by being in recognition of or service to, or both, something like that.

正如你所说，它可能与传统宗教相一致，或者只是与这样一种观念相一致，即我们之外有一些值得关注的重要事物，我们都可以通过承认或服务或两者兼而有之来做得更好。

Chris Voss: Pretty much like that.

克里斯·沃斯：差不多就是这样。

And then leaving it as open as possible, because I think there's a spiritual nature to us, period.

然后让它尽可能开放，因为我认为我们有一种精神本质，就这样。

Andrew Huberman: I agree.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我同意。

What about your physical training?

你的体能训练怎么样？

I must say, you're in excellent shape.

我必须说，你的状态非常好。

I imagine that went along with the FBI thing.

我想这与联邦调查局的事情有关。

I mean, I saw "Silence of the Lambs," at the beginning, she's running around with other agents.

我的意思是，我看过《沉默的羔羊》，一开始，她和其他特工一起跑来跑去。

Yeah.

是的。

Shooting targets and running and lifting and doing their sit-ups.

射击目标、跑步、举重和做仰卧起坐。

And I think it was a 1980s film, so it's a little bit dated now, probably now they're doing other stuff as well, but nothing works like the basics.

我认为这是一部 20 世纪 80 年代的电影，所以现在有点过时了，可能现在他们也在做其他事情，但没有什么比基本的更有效了。

So was the FBI the first time you got serious about fitness or prior to that, were you an athlete and into fitness?

那么，FBI 是您第一次认真对待健身吗？还是在此之前，您是一名运动员并热衷于健身？

And what are you doing nowadays to maintain your, frankly, impressive shape?

坦率地说，你现在正在做什么来保持令人印象深刻的身材？

Chris Voss: Well, thank you for the compliments.

克里斯·沃斯：好的，谢谢你的赞美。

Sports, athletics, fitness was always a part of my life.

运动、田径、健身一直是我生活的一部分。

I was into sports, but not particularly good at them.

我很喜欢运动，但不是特别擅长。

Football, basketball.

足球、篮球。

I'm a last-century guy.

我是一个上世纪的人。

So long before the conditioning is evolved as it is now, with interval training and the rest of this stuff, which is phenomenal.

早在体能训练像现在这样发展之前，通过间歇训练和其他这些东西，这是惊人的。

Weightlifting was introduced in my high school.

举重是在我高中时引入的。

My senior year, I lifted weights.

大四那年，我举重。

Some continued through college.

有些人继续读完大学。

Little bit of time in the martial arts.

练习武术的时间很少。

Ripped my knee apart in college in the martial arts.

大学武术课时我的膝盖被撕裂了。

But, yeah, fitness has always been a part of my life as much for liking to be in condition and the spiritual regeneration of it, whether I knew what it was or not.

但是，是的，健身一直是我生活的一部分，就像喜欢保持健康状态和精神再生一样，无论我是否知道这是什么。

These days, I'm looking for every hack there is.

这些天，我正在寻找所有的黑客。

I know you don't like the term hack.

我知道你不喜欢黑客这个词。

Well, we like mechanisms.

嗯，我们喜欢机制。

Scientists like mechanisms.

科学家喜欢机制。

Andrew Huberman: Yes.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Hack sort of implies that we're using one thing to accomplish something different.

Hack 有点意味着我们正在使用一件事来完成不同的事情。

I like mechanisms, but at the end of the day, if people want to call something a hack because it gets them the result they want, or it's more appealing to apply the tool.

我喜欢机制，但归根结底，如果人们想将某些东西称为黑客，因为它可以让他们得到他们想要的结果，或者应用该工具更有吸引力。

That's what matters to me.

这对我来说很重要。

Tools sitting in a box don't do anything.

放在盒子里的工具没有任何作用。

People are using them.

人们正在使用它们。

Then I'm good with the term.

那么我对这个词很满意。

Chris Voss: Yeah.

克里斯·沃斯：是的。

So what these days, cold plunge, sauna.

那么这些天呢，冷水浴，桑拿。

Principally, I'm struggling with issues with a couple of joints that I know science will eventually help me regenerate.

主要是，我正在努力解决几个关节的问题，我知道科学最终会帮助我再生。

So in the meantime, good diet.

所以在此期间，良好的饮食习惯。

The basic pillars, diet, not a perfect diet, but by and large, overall, my diet is pretty good.

基本支柱，饮食，不是完美的饮食，但总的来说，总体而言，我的饮食相当不错。

And then the little things.

然后是小事。

Spiritual keeps me in shape physically.

精神使我保持身体健康。

Hitting a cold plunge is challenging psychologically and physically.

遭遇寒冷的暴跌对心理和身体都是一种挑战。

Andrew Huberman: And the state shifter, that's for sure.

Andrew Huberman：当然还有状态转移者。

You don't need science to know that 30 seconds or a minute in that cold water is going to change your chemistry for a long while afterwards and for the better, I believe.

我相信，你不需要科学就知道在冷水中浸泡 30 秒或一分钟会在之后很长一段时间内改变你的化学反应，而且变得更好。

Once you get out, people forget this.

一旦你出去了，人们就会忘记这一点。

They're like, I hate the cold.

他们说，我讨厌寒冷。

The point is not how you feel while you're in it.

重点不在于你身处其中时的感受。

You can feel proud of how you navigate that portion, but the point is how you feel afterwards.

你可以为你如何浏览这部分感到自豪，但关键是你之后的感受。

Chris Voss: The old saying, why do you hit yourself in the hand with a hammer?

克里斯·沃斯：老话说，你为什么要用锤子敲自己的手？

Because it feels so good when you stop.

因为当你停下来的时候感觉很好。

Andrew Huberman: I like that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这样。

Spoken like somebody who worked in New York City for a long time.

说话就像在纽约市工作了很长时间的人一样。

Out here, we'd probably say something, know, it's like crystals and lava lamps or something, although there aren't many lava lamps anymore.

在这里，我们可能会说一些东西，知道，就像水晶和熔岩灯之类的东西，尽管熔岩灯已经不多了。

I think that the idea that California is all hippie dippy, that's not true anymore.

我认为加州都是嬉皮士的想法已经不再正确了。

I think it's been overrun by a different ethos.

我认为它已经被一种不同的精神所超越。

In any event, thanks for sharing that, because I think that we can't separate the physical from the psychological, right?

无论如何，感谢您分享这一点，因为我认为我们无法将身体与心理分开，对吗？

I mean, we've been talking about the mental and fatigue status of the people you're negotiating with oftentimes during this conversation.

我的意思是，在这次谈话中，我们经常谈论与你谈判的人的精神和疲劳状态。

But then, of course, there's how you show up to the job.

当然，还有你如何表现出这份工作。

I mean, if you're run down three days and you've been in a fight with your spouse, and that's still in the back of your mind, and you're hungry, tired, sick, not connected to your higher power, all those things, there's no way you can be as effective at any job.

我的意思是，如果你已经精疲力竭了三天，而且你和你的配偶吵架了，而这仍然在你的脑海里，而且你又饿、又累、生病、与你的更高权力没有联系，所有这些事情，你就不可能在任何工作中都如此高效。

So it's great to hear, and not surprising to hear that you have bedrock practices that you implement.

因此，很高兴听到您实施了基础实践，这并不奇怪。

Chris Voss: Yeah, it's an interesting point.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，这是一个有趣的观点。

Almost everybody I knew that was really good at anything they did for a living, they probably took pretty good care of themselves.

我认识的几乎每个人都非常擅长谋生，他们可能把自己照顾得很好。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I agree.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我同意。

The language around self-care, I think, gets really distorted.

我认为，有关自我保健的语言确实被扭曲了。

I'm going to editorialize for a second here, but I'm going to editorialize in line with what you just said.

我要在这里稍作编辑，但我将根据您刚才所说的内容进行编辑。

I think self-care sounds like navel-gazing, where people think that it's all about self, but it's actually taking care of oneself so that we can show up better for everybody else.

我认为自我保健听起来像是自我关注，人们认为这一切都是为了自我，但实际上它是在照顾自己，这样我们才能更好地向其他人展示。

More energy, more capacity, more staying power to have those heart conversations with the people we care about and that move our life forward.

有更多的精力、更多的能力、更多的持久力与我们关心的人进行心灵对话，推动我们的生活前进。

So it's really refilling the fuel tank in my mind, as opposed to the kind of egocentric, narcissistic stance that a lot of people take towards that.

所以这确实给我的头脑补充了油，而不是像很多人那样以自我为中心、自恋的立场。

And I understand why they do.

我明白他们为什么这样做。

People scroll through Instagram and they see people selfie-ing every muscle and all this stuff, and listen, I'm not disparaging what people want to do, but at the end of the day, self-care is about being more ready to do better for the world if you're mission oriented.

人们浏览 Instagram，看到人们自拍每一块肌肉和所有这些东西，听着，我并不是贬低人们想做的事情，但归根结底，自我保健就是如果你以使命为导向，就更愿意为世界做得更好。

Chris Voss: Agreed.

克里斯·沃斯：同意。

Completely agree.

完全同意。

Andrew Huberman: Do you think there's been a change in the FBI over the last 30, 40 years?

Andrew Huberman：你认为过去 30 年、40 年 FBI 发生了变化吗？

Around that?

在那附近？

I have this image in my mind of agents, like, sitting in cars for 20 hours, eating hoagie sandwiches and looking through binoculars and running themselves into the ground with this kind of bulldog-like persistence to solve the puzzle.

我脑海中浮现出这样的画面：特工们坐在车里 20 个小时，吃着三明治，通过双筒望远镜观察，然后以斗牛犬般的毅力冲向地面，以解决难题。

Put differently, I imagine there were some negotiations that were very long and fatiguing.

换句话说，我想有一些谈判非常漫长且令人疲惫。

Do you recall one of the longer negotiations that you had, and how do you sleep at night midway through a hostage crisis?

您还记得您进行的一次较长时间的谈判吗？在人质危机中您晚上如何入睡？

Chris Voss: So the longest one that I was directly involved in on almost day-to-day, an hour-to-hour one, went about three-ish days.

克里斯·沃斯：所以我几乎每天都直接参与的最长的一个，一个小时一个小时，持续了大约三天左右。

Washington, D.C., 2003.

华盛顿特区，2003 年。

Started the Second Iraq War.

第二次伊拉克战争爆发。

Guy named Dwight Watson rolled the tractor into the middle of D.C. and claimed he had four bombs.

名叫德怀特·沃森（Dwight Watson）的家伙将拖拉机开到了华盛顿市中心，并声称他有四枚炸弹。

And he left four bombs scattered around the city.

他在城市各处留下了四枚炸弹。

Andrew Huberman: Had he actually done that or he was bluffing?

Andrew Huberman：他真的这么做了还是在虚张声势？

Chris Voss: He was bluffing.

克里斯·沃斯：他是在虚张声势。

He hadn't done either and started on Saint Patrick's Day.

他两件事都没有做，而是从圣帕特里克节开始。

Andrew Huberman: Like the thing you said was, in the Philippines, it's like national holiday.

安德鲁·休伯曼：就像你所说的那样，在菲律宾，这就像国定假日。

Chris Voss: Yeah, holiday, right.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，假期，对吧。

Interesting for a whole bunch of reasons.

出于很多原因，这很有趣。

Now I had to go home and go to sleep one night, and when we were in the middle of that, and then it was just.

现在有一天晚上我必须回家睡觉，当我们正处于其中时，然后就这样了。

I don't remember having trouble going to sleep because I felt like I did a good job and that I handed the shift off to another hostage negotiator from the bureau, was effectively the team leader, Vince Dalfonzo.

我不记得自己睡不着觉，因为我觉得自己做得很好，而且我把轮班交给了局里的另一位人质谈判代表，他实际上是团队领导者文斯·达尔方佐(Vince Dalfonzo)。

And Vince was a brilliant.

文斯是一个才华横溢的人。

So.

所以。

And the team that he was with, everybody was in good hands.

他所在的团队，每个人都得到了很好的照顾。

As a matter of fact, Vince almost kicked me out of the scene because I didn't want to go.

事实上，文斯差点把我踢出现场，因为我不想去。

And he just kept saying, go home, get some sleep, go home, get some sleep.

他只是不停地说，回家，睡一会儿，回家，睡一会儿。

And finally, the fifth time he said it to me, I went home.

最后，他第五次对我这么说时，我回家了。

So I felt like I was leaving things in really good hands.

所以我觉得我把事情交给了非常好的人来管理。

And when working kidnappings, we expected them to go for long periods of time.

在进行绑架工作时，我们预计他们会持续很长时间。

And you just kind of got to.

而你必须这样做。

If you have faith in a process and you feel like that you're doing the best it can be done, then I think you could sleep at night.

如果你对一个过程有信心，并且你觉得你正在尽力做到最好，那么我认为你晚上可以睡觉。

I guess to answer that question, you have to be careful whether you're working a case, a siege, or anything in the Bureau that you don't run yourself into the ground.

我想要回答这个问题，你必须小心，无论你是在调查案件、围攻还是局里的任何事情，不要让自己陷入困境。

And there was some cases I worked in the '90s where we knocked ourselves out.

我在 20 世纪 90 年代工作过的一些案例中，我们都被搞垮了。

We worked hard on anybody we ever saw, but we occasionally, we took time off, too.

我们为见过的每个人都努力工作，但偶尔我们也会休假。

I worked with guys that realized that sometimes you got to go out and have a beer, kick back and blow some steam.

我和一些人一起工作，他们意识到有时你必须出去喝杯啤酒，放松一下，发泄一下。

So I think everybody that I ever worked with were occasionally cautious enough to recharge the batteries.

因此，我认为与我共事过的每个人偶尔都会非常谨慎地重新充电。

And then depending upon the nature of the challenge in front of you, it was a siege in St. Martin's Parish and went six days.

然后，根据你面临的挑战的性质，这是对圣马丁教区的围攻，持续了六天。

I don't think those guys got a lot of sleep, but the nature of those sieges, that particular type of siege only lasts five or six days anyway.

我不认为那些人睡了很多觉，但这些围攻的性质，这种特殊类型的围攻无论如何只能持续五六天。

You just got to gut it out.

你只需要把它掏出来。

Andrew Huberman: Were there ever instances where you're just trying to keep the person on the line so they can just raid?

Andrew Huberman：是否有过这样的情况：你只是想让对方保持在线状态，以便他们可以进行突袭？

Chris Voss: I never had to do that personally.

克里斯·沃斯：我个人从来不需要这样做。

You had to be prepared to do that from the very beginning of any siege that you might have to orchestrate an assault of some sort.

你必须从任何围攻一开始就做好准备，因为你可能需要策划某种攻击。

I was fortunate enough early on in my training.

我在训练初期就很幸运。

There's kind of a famous siege in, if you know hostage negotiation history, in London called the Prince's Gate Siege, where legendary British hostage negotiator David Veness had the bad guys on the phone while the SAS was hidden in the building.

如果你了解人质谈判的历史的话，伦敦有一场著名的围攻，称为“王子门围攻”，英国传奇人质谈判专家大卫·维内斯在英国特种部队躲在大楼里的时候给坏人打电话。

And I remember that we were showing like, look, there may come a time when you have to keep somebody on the phone when SWAT comes in.

我记得我们表现得好像，看，可能有一天，当特警介入时，你必须让某人保持电话。

That goes with the territory.

这与领土有关。

So expect that's a possibility from the very beginning.

因此，从一开始就期待这种可能性。

And it was a great siege.

这是一场伟大的围攻。

The bad guy, Salim, the photos of him after he was shot, the phone is within his reach.

坏人萨利姆，他被枪杀后的照片，手机就在他触手可及的地方。

David kept him on the phone.

大卫让他保持电话畅通。

I've heard the tapes.

我听过磁带。

The breaching explosions were going on.

爆炸正在发生。

And Salim says, I got to go.

萨利姆说，我得走了。

I got to go.

我得走了。

There's suspicious noises.

有可疑的声音。

And David Veness, in his classic British accent, said, Salim, there are no suspicious noises.

大卫·维内斯用他典型的英国口音说，萨利姆，没有可疑的声音。

Now let's get back to talking about how many people are going on the bus to the airport.

现在让我们回过头来谈谈有多少人乘坐公共汽车去机场。

Andrew Huberman: Bam.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 巴姆。

Chris Voss: And they went in, and I caught up with David a number of years later.

克里斯·沃斯：他们进去了，几年后我追上了大卫。

I had a presidential intern from the White House interning with me in the Bureau.

我有一位来自白宫的总统实习生和我一起在局里实习。

We're drinking in a bar with David Veness.

我们和大卫·维内斯在酒吧喝酒。

I got a lot of stories where I'm drinking in a bar with somebody.

我有很多关于我和某人在酒吧喝酒的故事。

And the intern walked around everybody and tapped David on the shoulder.

实习生绕过所有人，拍拍大卫的肩膀。

And he says, Chris says you kept the terrorist on the phone up to the moment that SAS came in the door.

他说，克里斯说你一直在给恐怖分子打电话，直到 SAS 进门为止。

And David says, yeah, and I'd have kept him on the phone even longer if the SAS hadn't come in so soon.

大卫说，是的，如果 SAS 没有这么快介入的话，我会让他在电话里待得更久。

So why am I telling that story?

那么我为什么要讲这个故事呢？

If you're going to get into that line of business, you got to accept all the things that go with it and realize that it's not you that made the decision, somebody else did.

如果你要进入这个行业，你必须接受与之相关的所有事情，并意识到不是你做的决定，而是别人做的。

You got to implement the strategy.

你必须实施该策略。

Andrew Huberman: Do you remember a case in Sacramento where I think it was a youth gang, took over like an electronic store?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你还记得萨克拉门托的一个案例吗？我认为这是一个青年团伙，像一家电子商店一样接管了？

Chris Voss: Good Guys siege.

克里斯·沃斯：好人围攻。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I remember this when I was a kid.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我小时候记得这个。

There are two things that stand out of my mind from when I was a kid.

当我还是个孩子的时候，有两件事让我印象深刻。

One was the--

其中之一是——

Chris Voss: Good Guys was the name of the electronic store.

Chris Voss：Good Guys 是电子商店的名称。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

Good Guys was the electronic store.

Good Guys 是一家电子产品商店。

And bad guys, so to speak, went in there, took them hostage.

可以说，坏人进去了，把他们劫为人质。

And I must have been a kid.

我一定是个孩子。

This must have been, like, late.

这肯定已经晚了。

This was a late '80s or something like that.

那是 80 年代末或类似的事情。

I remember that case.

我记得那个案子。

Chris Voss: It was about 1990.

克里斯·沃斯：那是大约 1990 年。

It was either '89 or '90.

那是89年或90年。

I knew one of the negotiators that was there.

我认识那里的一位谈判代表。

Andrew Huberman: I was 15, so I was born in '75.

Andrew Huberman：当时我 15 岁，所以我出生于 75 年。

And as I recall, they ended up opening fire on a bunch of hostages who were laying down on the ground.

我记得，他们最终向躺在地上的一群人质开枪。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Chris Voss: They knew that they were getting ready to execute the hostages because they put bags over their heads.

克里斯·沃斯：他们知道他们准备处决人质，因为他们把袋子套在人质头上。

And that whenever the bad guys do anything to dehumanize a hostage, it's easier to shoot somebody with a bag over their head than it is not, because you can't see their face.

每当坏人对人质采取任何非人性的行为时，向头上套着袋子的人开枪比不开枪更容易，因为你看不到他们的脸。

And so the bad guys had begun that process and they knew they needed to assault.

所以坏人已经开始了这个过程，他们知道他们需要攻击。

Andrew Huberman: God forbid anyone should ever be taken hostage.

安德鲁·休伯曼：上帝禁止任何人被扣为人质。

I realize circumstances differ, but you just mentioned putting bags over their heads.

我知道情况有所不同，但你刚才提到把袋子放在他们头上。

There's this notion of sheeple that people will describe post hoc after.

人们事后会描述“sheeple”这个概念。

Something about how somebody walks into a building, tells people to put zip ties on their own ankles or go into a back room — that nobody resists.

关于某人如何走进建筑物，告诉人们将拉链系在自己的脚踝上或进入后面的房间 - 没有人抗拒。

And that, in retrospect, had somebody caused a commotion, they might have caused enough of a commotion to either run out or be let go.

回想起来，如果有人引起骚乱，他们可能会引起足够的骚乱，要么跑出去，要么被释放。

And yet, of course, there's a very logical part of everybody's brain, I would hope, that thinks, listen, this person is an aggressor.

然而，当然，我希望每个人的大脑都有一个非常合乎逻辑的部分，它认为，听着，这个人是一个侵略者。

There's a gun in my face.

我的脸上有一把枪。

Don't be an idiot.

别是个白痴。

Right, because we also have heard of the case in New York City that I read about this in the newspaper.

是的，因为我们也听说过我在报纸上看到的纽约市的案例。

So presumably it's true, where someone was held up at gunpoint and one of the women in the group that was held up said, what are you going to do, shoot us?

所以大概这是真的，有人被枪指着，被拦住的人群中的一名妇女说，你要做什么，向我们开枪？

And the person shot them.

那个人开枪打死了他们。

So that happens, too.

所以这种情况也会发生。

I don't know if there's a fair and safe answer to give people on this, but if you're told to do something by somebody and it's all happening in real time, I mean, you have to ask, do they want my money, my body, my life, or some combination of the three, in real time while under presumably significant duress.

我不知道是否有一个公平和安全的答案可以给人们，但如果有人告诉你做某事，而这一切都是实时发生的，我的意思是，你必须问，他们是否想要我的钱、我的身体、我的生命，或者三者的某种组合，同时可能是在巨大的胁迫下实时发生的。

But for hostages, if they disobey, cause a commotion, is that extending their life or is it shortening their life?

但对于人质来说，如果他们不服从，引起骚乱，是延长他们的生命还是缩短他们的生命？

I guess it's very context dependent, right?

我想这非常依赖于上下文，对吧？

Chris Voss: The only thing that I could, without knowing the context, anything you could do to humanize yourself and comply with what the bad guys want increases your chance of survival.

克里斯·沃斯：在不了解背景的情况下，我唯一能做的就是，你可以做任何事情来使自己人性化并遵守坏人的要求，从而增加你的生存机会。

So let's say you got ordered to go in a back room.

假设你被命令进入后面的房间。

You could look at the hostage taker and say, I'll do whatever you say.

你可以看着劫持者说，我会照你说的做。

I'm Chris.

我是克里斯。

Drop your name on them in a way so that you go from being a faceless person to somebody with a name, that increases the chances of your survival.

以某种方式将你的名字写在上面，这样你就可以从一个不露面的人变成一个有名字的人，这会增加你的生存机会。

Humanization, whatever you can do to comply, simultaneously become more of a human being because it's the opposite of what I was talking about before.

人性化，无论你能做什么来遵守，同时变得更像一个人，因为这与我之前所说的相反。

If you're easier to kill, if you've been dehumanized, you're harder to kill.

如果你更容易被杀，如果你被非人化，你就更难被杀。

If you've been humanized, you're harder to harm.

如果你已经人性化，你就更难受到伤害。

Like, maybe they're not going to kill you, they're just going to hurt you.

就像，也许他们不会杀你，他们只是会伤害你。

They're less likely to harm you if they know your first name.

如果他们知道你的名字，他们就不太可能伤害你。

How do you get them as a hostage negotiator?

你如何让他们成为人质谈判代表？

If they talk about a hostage, I'll say, you mean Sheila?

如果他们谈论人质，我会说，你是说希拉？

Do you mean Rex?

你是说雷克斯吗？

I'll find a way to drop the person's name into the conversation.

我会想办法将该人的名字加入到对话中。

So as soon as, if you can humanize, just by getting them to know your name, you increase the chances of survivability, you increase the chances of being treated better and comply.

因此，一旦你能够人性化，只要让他们知道你的名字，你就增加了生存的机会，你就增加了受到更好对待和遵守的机会。

I'll do whatever you say, I'm Chris is going to start to move the odds in your favor.

我会照你说的做，我是克里斯，我会开始让事情对你有利。

Andrew Huberman: You know that what you just described extends to science.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：你知道你刚才描述的内容延伸到了科学。

I've talked before about my stance on animal research and why I choose to no longer do it.

我之前已经谈过我对动物研究的立场以及为什么我选择不再这样做。

I do think it has its place in making important discoveries that cannot be made on humans, but that eventually extend to--

我确实认为它在做出无法在人类身上做出的重要发现方面占有一席之地，但最终会延伸到——

Chris Voss: But you don't want to do it.

克里斯·沃斯：但你不想这样做。

Andrew Huberman: I don't want to do it personally, I don't want to do it, and I don't want to do primate work or large carnivore work or small carnivore work.

Andrew Huberman：我个人不想做，我不想做，我不想做灵长类动物的工作或大型食肉动物的工作或小型食肉动物的工作。

But the point I was going to make is that when you do primate work, they strongly discourage, near forbid you from giving them names.

但我要说的一点是，当你从事灵长类动物的研究时，他们强烈劝阻、几乎禁止你给它们起名字。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: They give them numbers.

Andrew Huberman：他们给了他们数字。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: So it all falls in line with what you were talking about, because the moment something has a name, it moves from being a research animal to a pet of sorts, and that makes it a relationship.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以这一切都符合你所说的，因为当某物有了名字的那一刻，它就从研究动物变成了某种宠物，这使它成为一种关系。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: So interesting how a name turns something from.

Andrew Huberman：很有趣的是，一个名字是如何变成一个东西的。

It elevates something to a relationship, however insignificant.

它将某些东西提升为一种关系，无论多么微不足道。

It's up a notch and into our empathy circuitry.

它上升了一个档次并进入了我们的同理心回路。

Chris Voss: Yeah.

克里斯·沃斯：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Which is perhaps the appropriate segue to talk about empathy.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这也许是谈论同理心的合适的接续。

This is a topic that you're spending a lot of time about.

这是您花费大量时间的主题。

You mentioned "Tactical Empathy," documentary, by the way, when is that going to be out, or do we have some sense?

你提到了纪录片《战术移情》，顺便问一下，什么时候播出，或者我们有什么感觉吗？

Chris Voss: My guess is we'll finish jumping through all the hoops and probably have out at the beginning of next year.

克里斯·沃斯：我的猜测是我们将完成所有的挑战，并可能在明年初退出。

I'm currently working with William Morris Endeavor on a couple of different projects.

我目前正在与 William Morris Endeavor 合作开展几个不同的项目。

They've been enormously supportive, and we've asked for their guidance on the best time to get the documentary out, and very happy with the people I'm dealing with there.

他们给予了我们极大的支持，我们请求他们指导拍摄这部纪录片的最佳时间，并且对与我打交道的人感到非常满意。

And actually stroke, the universe was looking out for me.

事实上，中风了，整个宇宙都在照顾我。

Funny set of circumstances, and just really enjoy with the people that I'm working with there.

有趣的环境，我真的很喜欢和我在那里一起工作的人。

So probably first part of next year.

所以可能是明年上半年。

Andrew Huberman: Fantastic.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

What's your take on empathy?

你对同理心有何看法？

I think of empathy in the pop culture sense of somebody's feeling pain and we feel their pain, but of course, empathy extends way beyond.

我想到流行文化意义上的同理心，即某人感到痛苦，我们也感受到他们的痛苦，但当然，同理心远远超出了范围。

Chris Voss: Yeah.

克里斯·沃斯：是的。

And that was Rob Malenka.

那就是罗布·马伦卡。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: My colleague at Stanford.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我在斯坦福大学的同事。

Chris Voss: Yeah.

克里斯·沃斯：是的。

I was really fascinated by the conversation that you had with him on that recently.

我对你最近与他的谈话非常着迷。

And he said a lot of people use empathy a lot of different ways, sort of for their own meanings.

他说，很多人以多种不同的方式使用同理心，某种程度上是为了表达自己的意思。

So my take on empathy, tactical empathy, also to keep throwing names out, because people give me thoughts and I want to source them out.

所以我对同理心、战术同理心的看法，也是不断地抛出名字，因为人们给了我想法，我想把它们找出来。

I'm very close to Steven Kotler's perspective on it, and Steven would say empathy is about the transmission of information.

我非常接近史蒂文·科特勒的观点，史蒂文会说同理心是关于信息的传递。

Compassion is the reaction to the transmission.

慈悲是对传递的反应。

Andrew Huberman: I like that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这样。

And by the way, I'm a fan of Steven's work.

顺便说一句，我是史蒂文作品的粉丝。

I think he's quite astute.

我认为他非常精明。

And boy, is he a hard worker.

男孩，他是一个勤奋的人吗？

He writes like a beast.

他写得像野兽一样。

I think he's up at like four in the morning.

我想他早上四点左右就起床了。

He also has like 50 Chihuahuas or something crazy.

他还有大约 50 只吉娃娃狗之类的。

Chris Voss: Well, he's away in the dogs.

克里斯·沃斯：好吧，他已经陷入困境了。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, well, you can fit more Chihuahuas in a room than any other.

Andrew Huberman：是的，一个房间里可以容纳的吉娃娃数量比其他任何房间都多。

Gotcha, Steven.

明白了，史蒂文。

Chris Voss: And that was when I was with the FBI.

克里斯·沃斯：那是我在联邦调查局工作的时候。

We started collaborating with Harvard because the Harvard definition was empathy was not liking the other side.

我们开始与哈佛合作，因为哈佛的定义是同理心，即不喜欢对方。

It was just demonstrating an understanding of their perspective.

这只是表明对他们观点的理解。

Bob Mnookin's book "Beyond Winnings," chapter, the tension between empathy and assertiveness.

鲍勃·姆努金（Bob Mnookin）的书“超越胜利”一章讲述了同理心与自信之间的紧张关系。

He says empathy is not agreeing, disagreeing, or even liking the other side, which sort of falls into what Steven talked about.

他说，同理心不是同意、不同意，甚至不是喜欢对方，这属于史蒂文所说的内容。

It's about the transmission of information.

这是关于信息的传输。

Now, empathy is a very compassionate thing to do, but it doesn't necessarily equate to compassion itself.

现在，同理心是一件非常富有同情心的事情，但它并不一定等于同情心本身。

If I make you feel heard by me saying to you what your perspective on something is, you're going to feel cared for, you're going to feel understood.

如果我让你感觉我在告诉你你对某事的看法，你就会感到被关心，你会感到被理解。

It's going to land with you, really well.

它会和你一起降落，真的很好。

I don't necessarily have to feel compassion for you.

我不一定要对你感到同情。

I know it's a precursor to compassion.

我知道这是慈悲的先兆。

So I would separate it from sympathy, clearly.

所以我会明确地将它与同情分开。

And I would even separate it from compassion, although I know it's a very compassionate thing to do.

我什至会把它与同情心分开，尽管我知道这是一件非常富有同情心的事情。

It's about ...

这是关于...

tactical empathy is about me actively demonstrating verbally to you that I understand where you're coming from.

战术同理心是指我积极地口头向你表明我理解你的想法。

Tactic from the experience of hostage negotiators, backed up by neuroscience, is that people largely react negatively.

根据人质谈判者的经验，在神经科学的支持下，人们的反应大多是消极的。

So the smarter move for me, instead of trying to reinforce a positive, is to first deactivate the negative by simply calling it out.

因此，对我来说，更明智的做法是首先通过简单地大声说出消极因素来消除消极因素，而不是试图强化积极因素。

Calling the elephant in a room out.

把房间里的大象叫出来。

Don't deny the elephant.

不要否认大象。

Don't ignore the elephant.

不要忽视大象。

Call the elephant in the room out.

把房间里的大象叫出来。

Say, it's probably going to sound like I'm greedy.

这么说吧，听起来我可能很贪婪。

If I expect that you're going to think I'm overreaching.

如果我预料到你会认为我太过分了。

I'm not going to say I don't want you to think I'm greedy.

我不会说我不想让你认为我很贪婪。

I'm going to say it's probably going to seem greedy.

我想说这可能看起来很贪婪。

So simply, well educated, emotional intelligence influence, gut instinct, influence on what the other side is thinking and feeling.

简单来说，受过良好教育，情商影响，直觉，影响对方的想法和感受。

If I can define it in that way, then it becomes an unlimited skill.

如果我能这样定义它，那么它就变成了一种无限的技能。

If it requires me to have compassion for you when I don't, then that limits my ability to use empathy, and I'm not interested in having that ability to be limited, I want it to be an unlimited skill.

如果它要求我对你有同情心，而我没有同情你，那么这就限制了我使用同理心的能力，而且我不希望这种能力受到限制，我希望它成为一种无限的技能。

So if you just define it strictly in terms of transmission of information, then it's not sympathy or compassion or liking or agreeing.

因此，如果你只是严格地从信息传递的角度来定义它，那么它就不是同情、怜悯、喜欢或同意。

It has a very powerful effect.

它有非常强大的作用。

It at least feels like compassion to the other side.

至少感觉像是对对方的同情。

It reacts with the emotional circuitry, the neurochemicals that everybody has, to some degree, if they're alive, even if they're on the spectrum, they have some of that going on inside.

它与每个人都拥有的情绪回路和神经化学物质发生反应，在某种程度上，如果他们还活着，即使他们处于自闭症谱系中，他们的内心也会发生一些这样的事情。

And of what I've read on even the mental illnesses in my last century training, I saw people who were paranoid schizophrenic as effectively be more of a wiring problem than a chemical problem for a layman's description.

在我上个世纪的培训中，我读到了有关精神疾病的内容，我发现偏执型精神分裂症患者实际上更像是线路问题，而不是外行描述的化学问题。

And a lot of what I've read said empathy is even effective with paranoid schizophrenics.

我读过的很多文章都说，同理心对于偏执型精神分裂症患者甚至很有效。

People, regardless of how disarray the circuitry in their head is, it helps them on some level to feel understood.

人们，无论他们头脑中的电路多么混乱，这都会在某种程度上帮助他们感到被理解。

So empathy is just about letting somebody feel understood.

所以同理心就是让某人感到被理解。

Example, when I'm working terrorism, we had a lot of Arab Muslims testify in open civilian court against a legitimate Muslim cleric, who was also a criminal, who also committed crimes.

例如，当我从事恐怖主义工作时，我们有很多阿拉伯穆斯林在公开民事法庭上作证反对一位合法的穆斯林神职人员，他也是一名罪犯，也犯下了罪行。

And I would sit down with him, and I'd say to him right off the bat, because I know where they're coming from.

我会和他坐下来，我会立即告诉他，因为我知道他们来自哪里。

You believe that there's been a succession of American governments for the last 200 years that have been anti-Islamic.

你相信过去 200 年来美国历届政府都是反伊斯兰的。

And they'd look at me and they go like, yeah.

他们会看着我然后说，是的。

I never said it was true.

我从来没有说过这是真的。

I never said I agreed.

我从来没有说过我同意。

I never said I disagreed.

我从来没有说过我不同意。

By me simply articulating what their perspective on the interaction was, they were so startled by it.

当我简单地阐明他们对互动的看法时，他们感到非常震惊。

It was empathy.

这是同理心。

We were so good at that empathy.

我们非常擅长这种同理心。

Frequently in that time frame, they would say, are you Muslim?

经常在那个时间范围内，他们会说，你是穆斯林吗？

And I'd say, no, I respect a religion, if you need to know, I'm a Christian, but I respect your religion, and I got no problem saying to you where you're coming from.

我会说，不，我尊重宗教，如果你需要知道的话，我是基督徒，但我尊重你的宗教，我可以毫无问题地告诉你你来自哪里。

That's empathy from my definition.

从我的定义来看，这就是同理心。

And then it becomes an unlimited skill.

然后它就变成了无限的技能。

I don't have to feel it.

我不需要感觉到它。

I don't have to necessarily want to do anything about it.

我不一定想为此做任何事情。

Goldman says, there's cognitive empathy, me just recognizing where your emotions are coming from.

高盛说，这是认知同理心，我只是认识到你的情绪来自哪里。

There's emotional empathy, me feeling your emotions, and there's empathic concern, me wanting to do something about your distress.

有情感上的同理心，我能感受到你的情绪，有同理心的关心，我想为你的痛苦做点什么。

My version of tactical empathy probably brings those into play in sequence on a continuum of sorts, but none of them are precursors.

我的战术同理心版本可能会让这些因素在某种连续体上按顺序发挥作用，但它们都不是先驱。

It's just me showing to you that I understand where you're coming from, and it has a phenomenally favorable impact on the interaction.

我只是向你表明我了解你的想法，这对互动产生了非常有利的影响。

Andrew Huberman: Tell me about mirroring as a tool.

Andrew Huberman：告诉我有关镜像作为一种工具的信息。

Chris Voss: Yeah.

克里斯·沃斯：是的。

Mirroring is one of the simplest, easiest, and most effective of the skill set.

镜像是最简单、最容易、最有效的技能之一。

Takes the least amount of brain power.

占用最少的脑力。

It's just repeating one to three-ish words of what somebody has just said, can be one.

它只是重复某人刚刚说过的一到三个词，可以是一个。

It should never, usually, be more than five.

通常，它不应超过五个。

Hostage negotiators learn it by repeating the last one to three words that somebody has just said.

人质谈判人员通过重复某人刚刚说过的最后一到三个词来学习这一点。

It doesn't have to be the last one to three words.

它不一定是最后一到三个词。

And the mirroring is not the body language mirror.

而且镜像并不是肢体语言的镜像。

It's not mimicking anybody physically, and it's not mimicking their tone of voice or their affect or anything about them.

它不是模仿任何人的身体，也不是模仿他们的语气、他们的情感或关于他们的任何事情。

It's just repeating one to three-ish words.

只是重复一到三个单词。

We found that accesses for whatever part of brain that you got to energize to do it.

我们发现，大脑中任何需要激发能量才能完成任务的部分都会受到影响。

It's a different part of the brain than labeling.

它是大脑中与标签不同的部分。

People are usually either really good at labeling.

人们通常要么非常擅长贴标签。

Like, I label, almost everybody on my team labels a lot.

就像我所贴的标签一样，我团队中的几乎每个人都贴了很多标签。

Sounds like this is bothering you.

听起来这件事让你很烦恼。

Seems like you're just not really sure where this is going.

看来你只是不太确定这是怎么回事。

And the mirror, I got to consciously make it a point to mirror.

至于镜子，我必须有意识地把它作为镜子的一个点。

And what's a mirror used for?

还有镜子是用来做什么的？

It's in place of what did you mean by that?

它代替了你的意思？

Or would you please go on?

或者请您继续吗？

Or I don't understand.

或者我不明白。

Could you repeat that again.

你能再说一遍吗？

I'll listen for stuff that either I don't understand or I need you to talk more about.

我会倾听我不明白的内容或我需要您详细讨论的内容。

And instead of saying, could you say some more about that?

与其说，你能再多说一些吗？

I'll just mirror the words.

我只会镜像这些词。

Now, for whatever reason, it connects the thoughts in your head.

现在，无论出于何种原因，它都将你头脑中的想法联系起来。

The way that lands is, I heard what you said, the words.

着陆的方式是，我听到了你所说的话。

I got the words because I just repeated them, and I still don't understand.

我明白这些话是因为我只是重复了一遍，但我还是不明白。

So I need a more in-depth explanation without using the same words that you just used.

因此，我需要更深入的解释，而不是使用您刚才使用的相同词语。

Because if you say, I think isopraxicism is useless, and I might say, what do you mean by that?

因为如果你说，我认为等实践主义是没用的，我可能会说，你这是什么意思？

And you go, isopraxicism is useless.

你走吧，等实践主义是没有用的。

You repeat the same words, only louder.

你重复同样的话，只是声音更大。

You figure that saying it louder will make it penetrate my cranium.

你认为大声说出来会让它穿透我的头盖骨。

That doesn't work.

那是行不通的。

I need you to explain, to go into more depth, to expand using different words.

我需要你解释，更深入，用不同的词来扩展。

And for whatever reason, we found as hostage negotiators and I find in business that if I mirror you, you'll expand and you'll connect.

无论出于何种原因，我们发现作为人质谈判代表，我在商业中发现，如果我模仿你，你就会扩展并建立联系。

So I use it in that context.

所以我在这种情况下使用它。

I might use it to get you to hear yourself out loud.

我可能会用它来让你大声说出自己的声音。

Like, if what you just said doesn't make sense, I'll repeat it back word for word, one to three words, and I'll upward inflect.

比如，如果你刚才说的话没有意义，我会逐字复述，一到三个词，然后向上语气变化。

I'll say, that doesn't make sense.

我会说，这没有道理。

Use my tone.

用我的语气。

Make it land with my tone so you can hear yourself out loud.

让它随着我的语气落地，这样你就能听到自己大声说出来。

Somebody else just pointed out to me the other day that if you're talking to somebody and they're in midthought and their voice trails off because they sort of lost their train of thought, if you mirror them there, that helps them get their train of thought back and expand.

前几天，有人刚刚向我指出，如果你正在和某人交谈，而他们正在思考，他们的声音逐渐减弱，因为他们有点失去了思路，如果你把他们镜像在那里，这可以帮助他们恢复思路并扩展思路。

So it's a ridiculously effective communication tool to get people to expand and feel heard.

因此，它是一种非常有效的沟通工具，可以让人们扩展并感受到被倾听。

Its simplicity puts some people off.

它的简单性让一些人望而却步。

There are some people that say, yeah, it sounds stupid.

有些人说，是的，这听起来很愚蠢。

I don't see what good that will do.

我看不出这有什么好处。

I always notice if somebody really wants to know about mirroring, my description is they're both high IQ and high EQ.

我总是注意到，如果有人真的想了解镜像，我的描述是他们都是高智商和高情商。

And why does that work?

为什么这样有效？

A high IQ guy is going to want to know something that's really simple.

一个高智商的人会想知道一些非常简单的事情。

It doesn't take any effort to do, and that's what a mirror does.

这并不需要任何努力，这就是镜子的作用。

It's really effective, and it's almost no effort on your part at all.

它确实非常有效，而且几乎不需要您付出任何努力。

Andrew Huberman: Interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。

I must say that neuroscience has an unfortunate dearth of knowledge about how brains interact.

我必须说，不幸的是，神经科学缺乏关于大脑如何相互作用的知识。

This is starting to change.

这种情况正在开始改变。

But most of what we know about how brains work is from putting people into functional magnetic resonance imaging machines, so-called MRI, exposing them to movies or games that they have to play, etc., and then looking at brain state activation.

但我们对大脑如何工作的大部分了解是通过将人们放入功能性磁共振成像机器（即所谓的 MRI）中，让他们观看必须玩的电影或游戏等，然后观察大脑状态的激活。

There are a few laboratories starting to look at how people interact in real time with both people in separate MRI machines that hopefully we'll be able to parse some of this.

有一些实验室开始研究人们如何在单独的 MRI 机器中与两个人进行实时交互，希望我们能够解析其中的一些内容。

And I'm certain that somebody hearing this will use this knowledge to go do the experiment.

我确信听到这个的人会利用这些知识来做实验。

If not, I'll run it up the flagpole to some highly qualified people at Stanford who could do this, because it'd be fun to see what's happening.

如果没有，我会把它举到斯坦福大学一些高素质的人那里，他们可以做到这一点，因为看到发生的事情会很有趣。

But I have the sense that what's happening is that there is a real merge of cognition when one hears their own words spoken back to them, that you've now got two brains processing the same information, and that has to lead new places.

但我有一种感觉，正在发生的事情是，当一个人听到自己的话语对他们说话时，就会出现真正的认知融合，你现在有两个大脑处理相同的信息，并且必须引导新的地方。

So I don't have any insight as to what exactly is happening, but certainly that something is happening there, right?

所以我对到底发生了什么一无所知，但肯定是那里发生了一些事情，对吗？

Evidenced by the real-world results that you're getting.

您获得的现实结果证明了这一点。

We don't need experiments to tell us that, but it'd be interesting to see and learn a bit of what's happening.

我们不需要实验来告诉我们这一点，但看到并了解一些正在发生的事情会很有趣。

If there's a fusion, for instance, of a coactivation of emotional centers, coactivation of ...

例如，如果存在融合，情感中心的共同激活，...的共同激活

There's something about hearing our own voice that's very different than hearing other people's voices.

听到我们自己的声音与听到别人的声音有很大不同。

Most people cringe when they hear their own voice on recording, right?

大多数人在录音中听到自己的声音时都会感到畏缩，对吗？

Most, not all.

大多数，不是全部。

Some people are in love with their own voice.

有些人很喜欢自己的声音。

We know these people, but we know that our auditory system cancels out the hearing of our own voice.

我们认识这些人，但我们知道我们的听觉系统抵消了我们自己声音的听觉。

Did you know that?

你知道吗？

As we're talking now, our auditory system is suppressing our own voice?

正如我们现在所说，我们的听觉系统正在抑制我们自己的声音？

We don't really hear ourselves speak the same way that when you speak, I hear you speak.

我们真正听到自己说话的方式与你说话时我听到你说话的方式不同。

So it's an active neurochemical inhibition of the response.

所以这是一种积极的神经化学反应抑制。

And it's amazing, too, because as we grow up, our voice changes, puberty and so forth, and other ways, too, that the vocal cords change in thickness, etc., and our voice changes.

这也很令人惊奇，因为随着我们的成长，我们的声音会发生变化，青春期等等，以及声带厚度等的其他方式也会发生变化，我们的声音也会发生变化。

But we always know self from other in terms of voice, and we cancel out our actual auditory perception of our own.

但我们总是通过声音来区分自己和他人，并且我们抵消了我们自己的实际听觉感知。

Chris Voss: That's fascinating.

克里斯·沃斯：这很有趣。

Andrew Huberman: And breathing and heartbeat.

Andrew Huberman：还有呼吸和心跳。

We shut down our response to self actively within the brain.

我们在大脑中主动关闭对自我的反应。

Chris Voss: That's fascinating.

克里斯·沃斯：这很有趣。

Andrew Huberman: So maybe hearing back some of what we just said allows us to actually hear what we just said.

Andrew Huberman：所以也许回听我们刚才所说的一些内容可以让我们真正听到我们刚才所说的内容。

Chris Voss: Yeah, well, true.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，确实如此。

And that's why people, sometimes all somebody needs is a sounding board so somebody else can hear.

这就是为什么人们有时需要的只是一个共鸣板，以便其他人能够听到。

They can hear themselves out and get it repeated back to them, and then they go like, wait a minute.

他们可以听自己说完，然后让他们重复一遍，然后他们就会说，等一下。

Did I just say that?

我刚才有这么说吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Andrew Huberman: Interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。

Chris Voss: Useful.

克里斯·沃斯：有用。

Andrew Huberman: Indeed.

安德鲁·休伯曼：确实如此。

Proactive listening.

积极倾听。

Tell us about proactive listening.

告诉我们有关主动倾听的信息。

We're all told that we need to be better listeners.

我们都被告知，我们需要成为更好的倾听者。

The other day, someone said, we got two ears and one mouth.

有一天，有人说，我们有两只耳朵和一张嘴。

As if that's supposed to remind us.

好像这应该提醒我们一样。

Most people have two ears and one mouth.

大多数人有两只耳朵和一张嘴。

But I get the point.

但我明白了。

They were saying, hey, there's value in listening.

他们说，嘿，倾听是有价值的。

And more often than not, we default to broadcast, but no reception, or mostly broadcast, less reception.

而更多的时候，我们默认是广播，但没有接收，或者是广播多，接收少。

Right.

正确的。

Hence the call for nasal breathing.

因此，人们呼吁用鼻呼吸。

It's useful in a lot of circumstances because it keeps our mouth shut.

它在很多情况下都很有用，因为它可以让我们闭嘴。

What is proactive listening?

什么是主动倾听？

How do we do it?

我们该怎么做呢？

What's it good for?

它有什么好处？

Chris Voss: I'm really trying to get people out of the notion of active listening, just because active listening has been so overused that people have lost track of it, and most of it is taught poorly, and it's interactive or it's proactive.

克里斯·沃斯：我真的试图让人们摆脱主动倾听的概念，只是因为主动倾听被过度使用，以至于人们已经忘记了它，而且大多数都教得不好，而且它是互动的或主动的。

And so we learned as hostage negotiators, first of all, just to label the presenting emotion.

因此，作为人质谈判者，我们首先要学会给当前的情绪贴上标签。

And we just assumed that.

我们只是假设这一点。

And the presenting emotion was always anger of some form, anger, upset.

所呈现的情绪总是某种形式的愤怒、愤怒、不安。

On certain rare instances, the guy was under control, but they were almost always negative emotions.

在某些罕见的情况下，这个人虽然能得到控制，但几乎总是负面情绪。

So we just assumed that it was defined to what was confined to.

所以我们只是假设它被定义为仅限于什么。

What was driving hostage takers was negativity.

驱使劫持人质者的是消极情绪。

Now, if I may, because I feel like an imposter talking about neuroscience to you.

现在，如果可以的话，因为我觉得自己像一个冒名顶替者向你谈论神经科学。

Andrew Huberman: Your knowledge of neuroscience is spot on, Voss.

Andrew Huberman：沃斯，你对神经科学的了解非常到位。

I must say, numerous times you've asked me about things in neuroscience, and you've never been off the mark.

我必须说，你曾多次向我询问神经科学方面的问题，而且你从来都没有偏离主题。

You've clearly done your homework, too.

你显然也做足了功课。

Chris Voss: We keep trying to learn about it, but layman's terminology, the survival brain, is largely negative.

克里斯·沃斯：我们一直在努力了解它，但外行人的术语“生存大脑”在很大程度上是负面的。

Ballpark, I would say 75% negative.

大概，我想说 75% 是负面的。

Your reactions are going to be negative.

你的反应将会是负面的。

So, number one, I believe that's principally backed up by the experiments of neuroscience efMRIs have alluded to.

所以，第一，我相信这主要得到了 efMRI 提到的神经科学实验的支持。

And so then in hostage negotiation, we were taught to basically label the presenting emotion.

因此，在人质谈判中，我们被教导基本上要给所表现的情绪贴上标签。

And then I've seen experimentation or reporting of experiments.

然后我看到了实验或实验报告。

I think the first time I read about it was in a book called "The Upward Spiral," and that book is a good 10 years old, I think, which means the neuroscience is evolving, but primarily the experiment there that I remember reading about and read about in other places, that if people were undergoing a negative emotion, in my layman's paraphrase of the experiment is, they're shown a picture that induced a negative emotion in their head.

我想我第一次读到它是在一本叫做《向上的螺旋》的书中，我认为那本书已经有 10 年历史了，这意味着神经科学正在不断发展，但主要是我记得读过的和在其他地方读到的实验，如果人们正在经历负面情绪，用我对实验的外行人的解释是，他们会看到一张在他们的头脑中引发负面情绪的图片。

And then he asked people to simply call out what the emotion was, and when they self-labeled, then the emotion diminished.

然后他要求人们简单地说出这种情绪是什么，当他们自我贴上标签时，这种情绪就会减弱。

Now, the degree of diminishment varies, but the percentage of time that it diminishes by simply, by calling it out is just darn near all the time.

现在，减少的程度各不相同，但通过简单地喊出来而减少的时间百分比几乎一直都在。

So if we're largely 75% negative and we can deactivate the negativity by calling it out, well, let's be proactive.

因此，如果我们在很大程度上持消极态度，而我们可以通过大声疾呼来消除消极情绪，那么，让我们积极主动吧。

If you're a human being and we're engaged in a negotiation, there's going to be certain very predictable negativity that's going to be there, and I should be proactive in calling it out.

如果你是一个人，而我们正在进行谈判，那么肯定会出现一些可预见的消极情绪，我应该主动指出来。

Anticipating the negativity is going to be there based on a circumstance, is highly predictable.

根据情况预测消极情绪将会出现，这是高度可预测的。

And your gut instinct before that, you were referring to when you want to say, look, I don't want you to think I'm being greedy.

在那之前，你指的是当你想说，看，我不想让你认为我很贪婪时的直觉。

Your gut's telling you it's highly predictable.

你的直觉告诉你这是高度可预测的。

You're going to come off as greedy.

你会显得很贪婪。

So let me be proactive and say it's probably going to seem like I'm being greedy, and that's the dialing over to what is eminently predictable in the interaction, and just being proactive to deactivate the negative emotions that either are taking place or what our experience has found.

因此，让我积极主动地说，这可能会显得我很贪婪，这就是在互动中转向可预见的事情，并积极主动地消除正在发生的或我们的经验发现的负面情绪。

And I haven't seen any science that has yet that has had the opportunity to back this up.

我还没有看到任何科学有机会支持这一点。

It inoculates, I can create a barrier.

它接种，我可以创造一个屏障。

If I call out a negative that's not there, it doesn't plant it, it actually inoculates you from it.

如果我说出不存在的负面因素，它不会种植它，它实际上会为你接种它。

And I've done this in practice.

我已经在实践中做到了这一点。

I was given a lecture a couple of years ago.

几年前，有人给我做了一次演讲。

Anybody asks a question, I try to find the value in the question, no matter how bad the question is.

任何人问问题，我都会尝试找到问题的价值，无论问题有多糟糕。

This poor guy asked me a question that I just cannot find a single component in his question that demonstrates that he was listening or paying attention.

这个可怜的家伙问了我一个问题，但我在他的问题中找不到任何一个部分可以表明他正在倾听或注意。

There was nothing about it that I could congratulate him on.

我没有什么可以祝贺他的。

And so I said, this is going to sound harsh, because I know the answer I'm getting ready to give him is going to make it sound like to the group that I think he's stupid.

所以我说，这听起来很刺耳，因为我知道我准备给他的答案会让大家觉得我认为他很愚蠢。

I can't think of a way to respond to this without saying effectively, like, what are you thinking about?

我想不出一种方法来回应这个问题，而不需要有效地说，比如，你在想什么？

That's got nothing to do what we're talking about.

这与我们谈论的事情无关。

So I go, this is going to sound harsh.

所以我走了，这听起来很刺耳。

And I answer the question.

我回答这个问题。

And he just kind of goes, okay.

他就走了，好吧。

And I start answering somebody else question.

我开始回答别人的问题。

And he goes, that wasn't harsh.

他说，这并不严厉。

Now, if I hadn't said, this is going to sound harsh, and answered the question, I guarantee you my answer would have embarrassed him.

现在，如果我没有说，这听起来会很刺耳，并且回答了这个问题，我向你保证我的回答会让他感到尴尬。

And embarrassment is one of the worst negative emotions you can inflict on anybody, and he would hate me to this day for embarrassing him.

尴尬是你能给任何人带来的最糟糕的负面情绪之一，直到今天他都会因为我让他难堪而恨我。

So I got a moment coming at me that is predictably negative, and I can let that train run me down, or I can call that out in advance and get a reaction where the guy says, that wasn't that bad.

所以我遇到了一个可以预见的负面时刻，我可以让那列火车把我撞倒，或者我可以提前指出这一点，然后得到一个反应，那个人说，那还不错。

And that's what being proactive about the emotions is about.

这就是积极主动地对待情绪的意义所在。

Andrew Huberman: I love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。

And I'm recalling an instance during graduate school where my graduate advisor, who sadly has passed away, but was a phenomenal scientist, I mean, just so pure, insisted on getting the answers, could emotionally detach from the answers.

我回想起研究生期间的一个例子，我的研究生导师不幸去世了，但他是一位杰出的科学家，我的意思是，他是如此纯粹，坚持要得到答案，可能会在情感上脱离答案。

She just was a ninja.

她只是一个忍者。

She used to come into the laboratory when we were working on a paper, and she'd sit down and she'd say, you're going to hate me for what I'm about to ask you to do.

当我们写论文时，她常常走进实验室，坐下来说，你会因为我要你做的事而恨我。

And I'd think, oh, no, I'm going to have to redo all the analysis or some monumental thing.

我想，哦，不，我将不得不重做所有的分析或一些重大的事情。

And then she'd say, you got to change the font in figure 2.

然后她会说，你必须更改图 2 中的字体。

My god.

我的天哪。

What do you mean, I want to hate you?

你说我想恨你是什么意思？

It was released, but I wanted nothing more than to make her happy with my work because I respected the standard that she held so greatly.

它已经发布了，但我只想让她对我的工作感到满意，因为我非常尊重她所坚持的标准。

She could have asked me to stand on my head and do the experiments 50 times.

她本可以让我倒立并做 50 次实验。

I probably would have done it if I thought they would make the project better.

如果我认为他们会让项目变得更好，我可能会这样做。

And as a consequence, she would have been pleased because she was the standard for me and in many ways still is.

因此，她会很高兴，因为她是我的标准，而且在很多方面仍然如此。

But I'm wondering if she read your book because she used to presage these requests with, like, you're going to hate me.

但我想知道她读你的书是否是因为她过去常常预示这些请求，比如，你会恨我。

And then she'd ask me for something.

然后她就会向我要东西。

I'm like, oh, I hate you.

我就像，哦，我恨你。

That's nothing.

那没什么。

But now I wonder if I would have been taken aback if she had just said, hey, by the way, figure 2 needs redoing.

但现在我想知道，如果她刚才说，嘿，顺便说一句，图 2 需要重做，我是否会感到惊讶。

I might have been kind of bristled by that.

我可能对此感到有点恼怒。

So maybe she read your book.

所以也许她读过你的书。

Chris, these are great tools, mirroring and proactive listening.

克里斯，这些都是很棒的工具、镜像和主动倾听。

And thank you for sharing these.

感谢您分享这些。

Chris Voss: Of course.

克里斯·沃斯：当然。

Andrew Huberman: Did you ever employ the family members of kidnappers, friends of kidnappers, as a means to kind of tap into a different aspect of their psyche?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：你有没有雇佣过绑匪的家人、绑匪的朋友，作为一种手段来挖掘他们心理的不同方面？

Because I think that we are all, as human beings, very context driven.

因为我认为，作为人类，我们都是受环境驱动的。

So I can imagine that the person who kidnaps somebody or who's trying to steal somebody's resources is in a particular groove of person.

所以我可以想象绑架某人或试图窃取某人资源的人处于特定的状态。

And I do think there are people in the world who are just evil.

我确实认为世界上有些人是邪恶的。

But I also know, because I've read about it and I trust the sources, that there are people who have done horrendous things, who love their dog and genuinely love their dog and wouldn't harm an animal.

但我也知道，因为我读过相关报道并且我相信消息来源，有些人做了可怕的事情，他们爱他们的狗，真诚地爱他们的狗，不会伤害动物。

But I'm not trying to give these people a pass.

但我并不是想放过这些人。

But I could imagine that those other facets to somebody represent really good entry points for allowing them to see the kind of incongruence in their behavior.

但我可以想象，对于某人来说，这些其他方面代表了非常好的切入点，让他们看到自己行为中的不一致之处。

Or is it the case that when these are high-stress situations that you have to attack the, disarm the aggressor, and you're just focusing on the person as the bad actor, not considering the other contexts of their lives.

或者是这样的情况，当这些是高压情况时，你必须攻击，解除攻击者的武装，而你只关注这个人作为坏人，而不考虑他们生活的其他背景。

Chris Voss: All right, so let's draw a distinction between hostage takers in a contained situation and kidnappers uncontained, unknown location.

克里斯·沃斯：好吧，让我们区分一下在封闭环境中的劫持者和在不受封闭、未知地点的绑架者。

So you're probably asking about somebody in a contained situation, bad guys in a bank, Dwight Watson in his tractor in Washington, D.C. So very counterintuitively, if they're in a contained situation, there's a saying out there that says the system that you're employing is perfectly designed to give you the outcome that you have.

所以你可能会问一些处于封闭环境中的人，银行里的坏人，华盛顿特区开着拖拉机的德怀特·沃森。所以非常违反直觉的是，如果他们处于封闭环境中，就会有一种说法说，你所使用的系统经过完美设计，可以为你提供所得到的结果。

So bad guy Dwight Watson is on his tractor in D.C. The family's part of the system that put him there.

坏人德怀特·沃森（Dwight Watson）在华盛顿开着他的拖拉机。家庭是把他放在那里的系统的一部分。

The blunt, harsh reality of that is now, at that siege that went on long enough and it was so high profile, some of his family members showed up.

现在的残酷现实是，在这场持续了足够长的时间、如此高调的围困中，他的一些家人出现了。

Now we could and did try to use them.

现在我们可以并且确实尝试使用它们。

I'm walking from one place to another, from the negotiation operation cell component on the way to command post.

我从一个地方走到另一个地方，从谈判行动单元组件走向指挥所。

Hostage negotiator stops me, a couple of people with them, it's Watson's family, and they see I'm in a hurry and that I'm not interested in being stopped.

人质谈判代表阻止了我，他们身边有几个人，是沃森的家人，他们看到我很着急，而且我对被阻止不感兴趣。

And they got to say to me something to stop me and get my attention, and they go, look, our brother's just hurting in his heart.

他们必须对我说一些话来阻止我并引起我的注意，然后他们就走了，看，我们的兄弟只是心里受伤了。

He's just hurting.

他只是受伤了。

Things have gone bad for our whole family, and he's just hurting his heart.

我们全家的情况都变糟了，而他只是伤了他的心。

Don't kill him over that.

不要因此而杀了他。

And I looked at the negotiator and I said, get that on tape and we'll play that for him.

我看着谈判代表，说，把它录下来，我们会为他播放。

Because if we can get that on tape exactly the way they said it, that'll land.

因为如果我们能按照他们说的那样把它录下来，那就会成功。

But if we put them on a phone with them, they're going to try to reason with them and they're going to say stuff to him that didn't help, which they don't very well intentioned, but it's going to be counterintuitive and it's probably going to make it worse.

但如果我们让他们和他们通电话，他们会试图与他们讲道理，他们会对他说一些没有帮助的事情，他们的本意不是很好，但这将是违反直觉的，而且可能会让事情变得更糟。

So you have to understand, family can be extremely important if you can get them to say exactly the right thing.

所以你必须明白，如果你能让家人说出正确的话，他们就会变得非常重要。

And it's probably going to need to be highly orchestrated because you know how it's going to land.

它可能需要高度精心策划，因为你知道它会如何落地。

And unfortunately, if you get them in a direct conversation, it'll probably renew an old wound.

不幸的是，如果你让他们直接交谈，很可能会旧伤复发。

Family members have hurt each other in ways that they have no idea even happened.

家庭成员以他们甚至不知道发生的方式互相伤害。

And so a family member, my son to this day, remembers when I told him Santa Claus wasn't real.

因此，我的一位家庭成员，也就是我的儿子，至今还记得我告诉他圣诞老人不是真的。

And I have no. I have no memory of that conversation.

而我没有。我不记得那次谈话。

I'm sorry I blew it for you.

对不起，我为你搞砸了。

Right?

正确的？

Andrew Huberman: Wait, we got.

安德鲁·休伯曼：等等，我们得到了。

Oh, my goodness.

哦，我的天啊。

Chris Voss: But family members have hurt each other over the years that they have no idea which comes up in these live conversations.

克里斯·沃斯：但是多年来，家庭成员互相伤害，他们不知道这些现场谈话中会出现什么。

And you don't even know what wounds are there that you caused.

而你甚至不知道你造成了什么伤口。

And so in a contained situation, a family member can be extremely helpful, but it's a surgical shot that you have to be really careful with.

因此，在封闭的情况下，家庭成员可能会非常有帮助，但这是一次外科手术，你必须非常小心。

Otherwise it can go the other way because the wounds and people don't even know are there.

否则事情可能会走向相反的方向，因为人们甚至不知道伤口的存在。

Andrew Huberman: Gosh, that's such a psychologically astute way of viewing it, because I'm a big fan of the so-called family systems model of psychology.

安德鲁·休伯曼：天哪，这是一种在心理学上非常敏锐的看待它的方式，因为我是所谓的心理学家庭系统模型的忠实粉丝。

I mean, you can't look at any human being's psychology, positive, meaning adaptive or maladaptive psychology, and not look at the family system at which that evolved.

我的意思是，你不能在观察任何人的心理（积极的，即适应或适应不良的心理）的同时，也不看看其演化的家庭系统。

Which is not to say that some perfectly healthy families occasionally don't have issues with a child having mental illness.

这并不是说一些完全健康的家庭偶尔不会遇到患有精神疾病的孩子的问题。

That happens.

就会发生这种情况。

But I'm told that 99.9% of the time, you can identify a family system, organization or a lineage, a genetic tie, etc. that makes things start to make sense when somebody's really struggling.

但我听说，99.9% 的情况下，当某人真正陷入困境时，你可以识别出家庭系统、组织或血统、遗传纽带等，这些让事情开始变得有意义。

Right.

正确的。

And as you pointed out, sadly, oftentimes that involves pains of past.

正如你所指出的，可悲的是，这常常涉及过去的痛苦。

Wow.

哇。

Well, thanks for sharing that because I think that in my mind, the movie version of it, know, they bring the mother in and it's like, Billy, don't do it.

好吧，谢谢你分享这一点，因为我认为在我看来，电影版的，他们把母亲带进来，就像，比利，不要这样做。

As you said, that might be the time when Billy's really going to let his mother know.

正如你所说，那可能是比利真正要让他母亲知道的时候。

Childhood sucked for Billy.

比利的童年很糟糕。

Right.

正确的。

And that's not what you want.

这不是你想要的。

Chris Voss: Yeah.

克里斯·沃斯：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Goodness, what a complex job.

Andrew Huberman：天哪，这是一项多么复杂的工作啊。

What a complex, high-stakes, high-consequence job.

这是一项多么复杂、高风险、高后果的工作。

What did you do to unload some of the heaviness?

你做了什么来减轻一些负担？

I'm not just talking about getting a good night's sleep or having a beer with your coworkers afterward, although those things serve important roles for people, I realize.

我所说的不仅仅是睡个好觉或者事后与同事喝杯啤酒，尽管我意识到这些事情对人们起着重要的作用。

Do you think we can dump the hard stuff in our head and our hearts in a way that allows us to be functional?

你认为我们能以一种让我们能够发挥作用的方式把这些困难的东西倒在我们的头脑和心灵里吗？

Because people in your line of work, and I think just anyone in the world, you live long enough, you're going to experience loss.

因为从事你这一行的人，我想世界上的任何人，只要活得够久，你就会经历损失。

Chris Voss: Yeah.

克里斯·沃斯：是的。

You're going to get kicked in the gut.

你会被踢到肚子里的。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: And you're going to see people you care about get kicked in the gut.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你会看到你关心的人被踢到肚子里。

There's so much beauty to life as well, but that's the reality.

生活也有很多美丽，但这就是现实。

Do you have tools, processes that you use to kind of dump the baggage so that you can lean into your relationships and your relationship to yourself with restored sense of optimism?

你是否有一些工具、流程可以用来卸下包袱，以便你能够以恢复乐观的态度来处理你的人际关系以及你与自己的关系？

Chris Voss: Yeah.

克里斯·沃斯：是的。

I think most of the people that I've always worked around, we've been very reinforcing of one another comedically,, emotionally, friendship-wise.

我认为我一直共事的大多数人，我们在喜剧上、情感上、友谊上都非常互相支持。

Being able to laugh with each other, taking it easy on each other, getting people laughter and genuine understanding without somebody trying to tell you that you did wrong.

能够互相开怀大笑，互相宽容，让人们开怀大笑并获得真正的理解，而不会有人试图告诉你你做错了。

I've been lucky enough to either find myself in those groups most of the time, or we just evolved it.

我很幸运，要么大部分时间都属于这些群体，要么我们只是进化了它。

That's just the way that we were.

我们就是这样。

We were attracted to one another emotionally, psychologically because of that.

因此，我们在情感上、心理上被彼此吸引。

That's probably it, mostly.

大概就是这样。

I mean, I've tried to parse some of these emotions out recently.

我的意思是，我最近试图解析其中一些情绪。

Like, I'm not particularly proud of anything I've ever done, but I always felt like it was a privilege.

就像，我并不为自己做过的任何事情感到特别自豪，但我总觉得这是一种荣幸。

Like, you must be proud of your accomplishments.

就像，你必须为自己的成就感到自豪。

I don't know that it's pride, but there's other satisfaction that I get out of it.

我不知道这是骄傲，但我还从中得到了其他的满足。

And so thinking about what drives me also, now that I'm running a company and I got people, also entrepreneurs that are trying to do the best for their employees, what do we encourage in one another so that whatever we're doing, people feel good about it?

因此，想想是什么在推动我，现在我正在经营一家公司，我有很多人，还有努力为员工做到最好的企业家，我们应该互相鼓励什么，以便无论我们在做什么，人们都会感觉良好？

And I try to take a lot of that from what I learned as an FBI agent and a hostage negotiator and the people that I was around.

我尝试从作为联邦调查局特工、人质谈判代表以及周围的人那里学到的很多东西。

And we did joke with each other a lot and we did play tricks on each other.

我们经常互相开玩笑，互相捉弄。

Good-natured humor.

性格开朗幽默。

Avoid the people that are running you down, but be able to take some good-natured ribbing every now and then.

避开那些让你失望的人，但时不时地接受一些善意的玩笑。

And I think humor is one way or another, combined with hard work and an appreciation for what you're doing has probably been most of the mental health along the way.

我认为幽默是一种或另一种方式，再加上努力工作和对自己所做的事情的欣赏，可能是一路上心理健康的大部分内容。

Occasional bourbon.

偶尔喝点波本威士忌。

Andrew Huberman: Love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：喜欢。

We did a whole episode on alcohol, and so people are going to hear me say, love it, and think, oh, wait, here.

我们做了一整集关于酒精的节目，所以人们会听到我说，喜欢它，然后想，哦，等等，在这里。

I'm supporting ...

我支持...

Listen, the data say as long as.

听着，数据说只要。

You're not an alcoholic, as long as you are of age, probably two drinks a week or less is safe.

您不是酒鬼，只要您已成年，每周喝两杯或更少可能是安全的。

Make them good, high-quality drinks if you're going to have them, consume them in the right context, or don't consume them at all.

如果您要喝它们，请将它们制成优质的饮料，在正确的环境下饮用它们，或者根本不喝它们。

But that's why I said love it.

但这就是为什么我说喜欢它。

I support your love of bourbon.

我支持你对波本威士忌的热爱。

I'm not a bourbon drinker, but tell me a little bit more about what you're up to lately.

我不喜欢喝波本威士忌，但请告诉我更多关于你最近在做什么。

You alluded to it a moment ago that you're running teams that are doing a lot, so you're in charge of a lot of people now, helping people, help people, providing a lot of service in the world through a lot of different channels.

你刚才提到，你正在管理的团队做了很多事情，所以你现在负责很多人，帮助人们，帮助人们，通过很多不同的渠道在世界上提供很多服务。

First of all, I want to say that your book Never Split the Difference.

首先，我想说你的书《Never Split the Difference》。

One of my favorite books.

我最喜欢的书之一。

Chris Voss: Thank you.

克里斯·沃斯：谢谢。

Andrew Huberman: I don't say that lightly.

Andrew Huberman：我不会轻易这么说。

I don't endorse books very often, but the books I do endorse, I love, love, love.

我不经常为书籍代言，但我代言的书，我爱、爱、爱。

I also have to say that it's a toss up between your book "Never Split the Difference," and "The Body Keeps the Score" for the award for best titles of any book.

我还不得不说，在你的书《永不分裂》和《身体保持分数》之间争夺最佳图书奖，这是一场折腾。

Those are just like amazing titles.

这些就像令人惊叹的标题一样。

Amazing titles.

令人惊叹的标题。

Chris Voss: Tahl Raz, our cowriter, came up with a title.

克里斯·沃斯：塔尔·拉兹（Tahl Raz）是我们的合著者，他想出了一个标题。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's a phenomenal title, that, and "The Body Keeps the Score" because there's so much contained in the title and then the book exceeds expectations.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这是一个了不起的标题，“身体保持分数”，因为标题中包含了很多内容，然后这本书超出了预期。

So really amazing book.

真是太棒了。

People should listen to it, read it if they haven't already.

人们应该听听它，如果还没有读过的话。

But you're doing a lot more right now than just writing.

但你现在所做的不仅仅是写作。

Although I want to hear about your other book projects as well.

虽然我也想听听你的其他书籍项目。

But before you list off the number of things that you're doing, tell me first about Fireside, because this sounds like a really interesting endeavor that frankly, I haven't heard of before.

但在你列出你正在做的事情之前，请先告诉我关于 Fireside 的事情，因为这听起来是一项非常有趣的尝试，坦率地说，我以前从未听说过。

What's Fireside?

什么是炉边？

Chris Voss: Brand new social media platform.

Chris Voss：全新的社交媒体平台。

It's essentially an interactive podcast.

它本质上是一个交互式播客。

It's a subscription service founded by Falon Fatemi and Mark Cuban.

这是由法隆·法特米 (Falon Fatemi) 和马克·库班 (Mark Cuban) 创立的订阅服务。

Falon and I have been friends for a number of years.

法伦和我已经是多年的朋友了。

She was Google's youngest employee.

她是谷歌最年轻的员工。

She's an entrepreneur, dynamic, smart, hard-charging person.

她是一位企业家、充满活力、聪明、努力的人。

And it's sort of grew out of what's inadequate in some of the social media apps that are out there trying to combine the best ideas of a few different things.

它有点源于一些社交媒体应用程序的不足，这些应用程序试图将一些不同事物的最佳想法结合起来。

And Falon suggested it to me and I thought I'll jump in because she's a visionary.

法伦向我建议了这个建议，我想我会加入进来，因为她是一个有远见的人。

And what it's turned out to be is it's effectively weekly interactive group coaching.

事实证明，这是一种有效的每周互动小组辅导。

And you get the app off your iPhone or your Android, whatever platform your phone is on, and then you log in, we do an hour once a week and you're getting group coaching and then you get to ask questions and it's got a video component to it.

你从你的 iPhone 或 Android 上下载这个应用程序，无论你的手机使用什么平台，然后你登录，我们每周一次一个小时，你会得到团体辅导，然后你可以提出问题，它有一个视频组件。

So if you want to ask a question, we're going to bring you up on, quote, stage.

因此，如果您想问问题，我们会将您带到舞台上。

And I get to see you and talk directly to you.

我可以见到你并直接与你交谈。

And you get to see me and talk directly to me.

你可以见到我并直接与我交谈。

Or I interviewed Mark Cuban a couple of weeks ago and people got to come on and ask Mark questions or ask me questions.

或者几周前我采访了马克·库班，人们纷纷过来问马克问题或问我问题。

And what it has turned out to be is it's one of sort of the next level of how to get better at negotiations.

事实证明，这是如何更好地进行谈判的下一个层次之一。

After you've read the book and probably taken the MasterClass, where do you go next?

读完这本书并可能参加了大师班后，您下一步该去哪里？

One of the people that came on the podcast the other day, the Fireside episode, they said, well, I don't have enough money yet to go to your in-person training events because those are expensive and this is how I'm going to get better in a meantime and work my way in that direction.

前几天参加播客《炉边》节目的一个人说，好吧，我还没有足够的钱去参加你们的现场培训活动，因为这些活动很昂贵，这就是我在此期间如何变得更好并朝着这个方向努力的方式。

And so the monthly coaching, if you were to sign up for group coaching from us on a regular basis, on a monthly basis, it would probably easily cost you for what we're providing 25, 30 thousand a month, and this is a thousand a year.

所以每月的辅导，如果你定期从我们那里报名参加团体辅导，每月，你可能很容易就花掉我们每个月提供的 25、3 万美元，而这是一年一千。

So at scale, it's an opportunity to interact directly with me and the members on my team once a week and get group coaching.

因此，从规模上来说，这是一个每周一次与我和我的团队成员直接互动并获得团体辅导的机会。

And it's just kind of fun.

这很有趣。

We're getting a kick out of it and people that really care about interacting well with people.

我们从中得到了乐趣，人们也真正关心与人之间的良好互动。

Guy comes on the first episode I did and he said, besides the fact that you helped me make a lot more money, you helped me save my marriage.

盖伊在我拍摄的第一集中出现，他说，除了你帮助我赚了更多钱之外，你还帮助我挽救了我的婚姻。

And he just needed to know how to talk more genuinely and honestly with his wife in a way that made her felt heard, and he didn't really have a good way to do that beforehand.

他只需要知道如何以一种让妻子感到被倾听的方式更真诚地与妻子交谈，但他事先并没有什么好的方法可以做到这一点。

And I was just like, that's a lot.

我当时想，这已经很多了。

I don't know how to respond to that other than just be grateful that people can say stuff like that to us.

我不知道该如何回应，除了感激人们能对我们说这样的话。

So the Fireside thing is kind of cool.

所以 Fireside 的事情有点酷。

We're still experimenting with it.

我们仍在尝试它。

It's an interactive podcast, group coaching.

这是一个互动播客，团体辅导。

It's fun.

很有趣。

Andrew Huberman: Great.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。

I mean, I would say changing lives there.

我的意思是，我想说的是改变那里的生活。

I mean, the saving a marriage is no small deal.

我的意思是，挽救婚姻并不是一件小事。

And I think that the ability to communicate directly with people also, I imagine, gives them the opportunity to implement the tools that you're providing in real time.

我认为，直接与人们沟通的能力也让他们有机会实施您实时提供的工具。

It's one thing to hear about something and try it, but then you can get feedback in real time.

听到某件事并尝试一下是一回事，但随后您可以获得实时反馈。

Are you on these Fireside chats directly or members of your team?

您是直接参加这些炉边聊天还是您团队的成员？

Chris Voss: No, we do one every week, and I'm once a month.

克里斯·沃斯：不，我们每周做一次，而我每个月做一次。

And the other thing, too.

还有另一件事。

Like, I can explain something one way, and if for whatever reason, it doesn't land in your context, you can't quite get it.

就像，我可以用一种方式解释某件事，如果出于某种原因，它不适合你的上下文，你就无法完全理解它。

So that's what we found about the interactive nature of it.

这就是我们发现的它的交互性质。

Somebody comes on and asks a question in their context, and then I'll answer it, and then they'll go like, oh, okay, all right, that helped.

有人过来根据他们的情况提出问题，然后我会回答，然后他们会说，哦，好吧，好吧，这有帮助。

So you get to hear people like you who are struggling with it the way you are, but I haven't put it in your context yet.

所以你会听到像你这样的人正在以你的方式挣扎，但我还没有把它放在你的背景中。

And that's the other thing that's great about a Q and A.

这是问答的另一大优点。

A live Q and A.

现场问答。

Andrew Huberman: We had a guest on here who told me that there are amazing data supporting the fact that people follow the medical and health advice of doctors that they can relate to far more than they follow the medical and health advice of physicians that they feel aren't like them.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们这里有一位客人告诉我，有惊人的数据支持这样一个事实：人们遵循与他们相关的医生的医疗和健康建议，远远超过他们遵循他们认为与自己不同的医生的医疗和健康建议。

And oftentimes this can include the physician or healthcare provider being someone that they would aspire to be like.

通常，这可能包括医生或医疗保健提供者成为他们渴望成为的人。

But oftentimes it's just some common rapport.

但通常这只是一些常见的融洽关系。

Like, they both like baseball, or they both like to cook or to garden, and that sets a bridge where then the patient is willing to do all these things that ordinarily they would be resistant to.

比如，他们都喜欢棒球，或者他们都喜欢做饭或园艺，这就架起了一座桥梁，让患者愿意做所有这些他们通常会抗拒的事情。

Chris Voss: Right.

克里斯·沃斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: And there are really good data to support this.

Andrew Huberman：确实有很好的数据支持这一点。

And that really stuck with me because it says that it's not just about the information or the delivery route of the information, that the context and the rapport is even along something as like, oh, by the way, I'm not a major sports fan on most things, but like, oh, you're a Bills fan or something, like me too.

这真的让我印象深刻，因为它说这不仅仅是关于信息或信息的传递路线，背景和融洽关系甚至是这样的，哦，顺便说一句，我在大多数事情上都不是主要的体育迷，但就像，哦，你是比尔队的球迷什么的，就像我一样。

Like, that can be the difference between somebody doing all the things to lower their blood pressure, the day-in changing their diet, all those things versus not making the changes at all.

就像，这可能是一个人做所有事情来降低血压、改变饮食的一天，所有这些事情与根本不做改变之间的区别。

Chris Voss: Rapport is a magic.

克里斯·沃斯：融洽关系是一种魔力。

Yeah, it's kind of a magic component that changes everything.

是的，它是一种改变一切的神奇成分。

Andrew Huberman: Well, Fireside sounds like a great opportunity for people to not just ask questions, but to build rapport with you and members of your team.

Andrew Huberman：嗯，Fireside 听起来是一个很好的机会，人们不仅可以提出问题，还可以与您和您的团队成员建立融洽的关系。

So I'm going to check it out.

所以我要去检查一下。

Lord knows I need help improving my communications in certain domains of life.

天知道我需要帮助来改善我在某些生活领域的沟通。

Believe me, I get the memos.

相信我，我收到了备忘录。

Fact, what other writing projects are you involved in, if any?

事实上，您还参与了哪些其他写作项目（如果有的话）？

Chris Voss: We've been toying with this companion operations manual for tactical empathy, which getting it right is important.

克里斯·沃斯：我们一直在研究这本配套操作手册，以实现战术同理心，正确使用它非常重要。

So it's sort of a companion book to "Never Split the Difference." That's probably at least a year and a half out from being done.

因此，它可以说是《永不分裂》的姊妹书。这可能至少需要一年半的时间才能完成。

So in the meantime, we do a lot of online training.

因此，与此同时，我们进行了大量的在线培训。

We got a newsletter we put out weekly for people to get our latest cutting-edge application.

我们每周都会发布一份时事通讯，供人们获取我们最新的尖端应用程序。

Thoughts as much as possible.

尽可能多地思考。

We're putting information out that we charge for a lot, and we put out a lot of free, you know.

我们发布的信息显示，我们收取很多费用，但我们也发布了很多免费的信息，你知道。

I'm throwing out ideas on Instagram, but we're constantly trying to put information out there so that people can collaborate better.

我在 Instagram 上提出想法，但我们不断尝试将信息发布到那里，以便人们可以更好地协作。

So specific.

如此具体。

We just finished a book for residential real estate agents.

我们刚刚完成了一本针对住宅房地产经纪人的书。

A friend of mine, Steve Scholl, we put that out last November.

我的朋友 Steve Scholl，我们去年 11 月就发布了这个消息。

That's sort of niched, but it's mostly the Black Swan method for real estate agents because every conversation they're in is a difficult, emotional conversation.

这有点小众，但这主要是房地产经纪人的黑天鹅方法，因为他们进行的每一次对话都是困难的、情绪化的对话。

Sale of a house is one of the most stressful moments of anybody's life, selling or buying, so we just put that out.

出售房屋是任何人一生中压力最大的时刻之一，无论是出售还是购买，所以我们只是把它放在一边。

In the meantime, we're spreading the gospel as much as possible.

与此同时，我们正在尽可能地传播福音。

Andrew Huberman: We'll certainly point out the various places people can find you and the different venues for learning more.

Andrew Huberman：我们肯定会指出人们可以找到您的各个地方以及了解更多信息的不同场所。

I want to say that numerous times throughout today's conversation, you threw out the words "sounds like" as an opener, and I have to say I have this kind of crazy idea in the back of my mind.

我想说的是，在今天的谈话中，你多次抛出“听起来像”这个词作为开场白，我不得不说，我的脑海里有这种疯狂的想法。

I believe that simple, field-tested tools are immensely powerful, not just for resolving negotiations, but really for changing the way that people interact with each other and themselves.

我相信简单的、经过现场测试的工具非常强大，不仅可以解决谈判问题，而且可以真正改变人们彼此之间以及他们自己互动的方式。

And if I have one wish for the world on the basis of our conversation, how amazing would it be if kids learned early on to talk to one another from that sounds like perspective, because I think that would naturally orient them toward listening, or at least offering a hypothesis of what they heard and how poorly they might be listening, and then getting a defensive stance response that informs them about the accuracy or lack of accuracy.

如果我在我们的对话的基础上对世界有一个愿望，那么如果孩子们很早就学会从听起来像是这样的角度相互交谈，那将是多么令人惊奇，因为我认为这会自然地引导他们倾向于倾听，或者至少提供他们听到的内容以及他们可能听得有多差的假设，然后得到一种防御性立场反应，告诉他们准确性或缺乏准确性。

And on and on.

不断地。

I feel like the sounds like question, sounds like you feel blank or sounds like you believe blank.

我觉得这听起来像是问题，听起来像是你感到空白，或者听起来像是你相信空白。

Just seems to me like one of the most potent tools in the universe.

在我看来，这就像宇宙中最有效的工具之一。

And I sure wish that all adults would implement it, but that kids would learn about it, too.

我当然希望所有成年人都能实施它，但孩子们也能了解它。

Chris Voss: Yeah, that's a great thought.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，这是一个很棒的想法。

How do we teach them at a younger age that listening is actually an effective thing to do?

我们如何在他们年轻的时候教导他们倾听实际上是一件有效的事情？

It's actually a way to think things through also.

这实际上也是一种思考问题的方式。

So, yeah, I agree.

所以，是的，我同意。

I mean, wave magic wand, right?

我的意思是，挥舞魔杖，对吧？

Andrew Huberman: Exactly.

安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。

Well, Chris, I want to thank you so much for your time.

克里斯，非常感谢您抽出宝贵的时间。

Mean, you've joined us on this tour of so many different facets of your work, prior and present, and you let us get a little glimpse into the portal of your future work, too, which I'm eagerly awaiting.

意思是，你和我们一起参观了你以前和现在的工作的许多不同方面，你也让我们瞥见了你未来工作的门户，我热切地等待着。

I also just want to thank you for everything that you do.

我也想感谢你所做的一切。

You've always struck me as such a giver of knowledge, and you can't put a value on that.

我一直觉得你是一位知识的传授者，但你却无法估价这一点。

You're constantly putting knowledge into the world on Instagram, your book, Fireside, and courses and on and on, gleaned from your experience in very intense circumstances.

你不断地在 Instagram、你的书、Fireside 和课程等上向世界传播知识，这些知识都是从你在非常紧张的环境中的经历中收集到的。

But really with an eye toward people getting the most out of that for their daily lives, which hopefully don't involve hostage negotiations unless they're a hostage negotiator.

但实际上是着眼于人们在日常生活中充分利用这一点，希望这不会涉及人质谈判，除非他们是人质谈判者。

So I just want to say thank you ever so much for what you do and for being such a phenomenal communicator.

所以我只想对你所做的一切以及你成为如此出色的沟通者表示非常感谢。

And also thank you for doing into that late-night FM DJ voice.

还要感谢您收听深夜 FM DJ 声音。

Chris Voss: Yeah, I wanted to be here sitting with you, being interviewed on your podcast since I first discovered it.

克里斯·沃斯：是的，自从我第一次发现你的播客以来，我就想和你坐在一起接受采访。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢。

Chris Voss: Several years ago, and it's a privilege to be here.

Chris Voss：几年前，很荣幸来到这里。

And I love what you're doing in getting actionable, usable tools into the world so people can navigate more effectively.

我喜欢你们为世界提供可操作、可用的工具所做的工作，以便人们可以更有效地导航。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢。

Right back at you.

就回到你身边。

Come back again.

再回来吧。

Chris Voss: All right, thanks.

克里斯·沃斯：好的，谢谢。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Chris Voss.

Andrew Huberman：感谢您参加今天与 Chris Voss 的讨论。

I hope you found it to be as interesting and as actionable as I did.

我希望您能像我一样发现它有趣且具有可操作性。

To find links to Chris's website and to his excellent book "Never Split the Difference," as well as to his social media handles, please see the links in the show note captions.

要查找克里斯的网站、他的优秀著作《Never Split the Difference》以及他的社交媒体账号的链接，请参阅节目说明标题中的链接。

If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific, zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳且零成本的方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or topics or guests that you'd like me to cover on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问或对您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客上报道的播客或主题或嘉宾有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

In addition, please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

此外，请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

Not on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

不是在今天的节目中，而是在 Huberman Lab 播客的许多之前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、激素支持和注意力集中。

The Huberman Lab podcast has partnered with Momentous supplements, and we did that for several reasons.

Huberman Lab 播客与 Momentous 补充剂合作，我们这样做有几个原因。

First of all, their ingredients are of the very highest quality.

首先，他们的原料都是最高品质的。

Second of all, they tend to focus on single ingredient formulations, which make it easy to develop the most cost-effective and biologically effective supplement regimen for you.

其次，他们倾向于专注于单一成分配方，这使得您可以轻松地为您开发最具成本效益和生物有效的补充方案。

And third, Momentous supplements ship internationally, which we realize is important because many of you reside outside of the United States.

第三，Momentous 补充剂在国际范围内运送，我们意识到这一点很重要，因为你们中的许多人居住在美国境外。

To see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S.

要查看 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充内容，请访问 livemomentous（拼写为 O-U-S）。

So it's livemomentous.com/huberman.

所以它是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following me on social media, you can do so by going to Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，您可以通过所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab 来关注我。

So that's Instagram, Twitter, now called X, LinkedIn, Facebook and Threads.

这就是 Instagram、Twitter（现在称为 X）、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads。

On all of those platforms I cover science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我介绍了科学和科学相关的工具，其中一些与 Huberman Lab 播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与 Huberman Lab 播客中涵盖的内容不同。

Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。

If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as toolkits.

如果您尚未订阅我们的神经网络新闻通讯，神经网络新闻通讯是一份零成本的每月新闻通讯，其中包括播客摘要和工具包。

So toolkits for sleep, toolkits for learning and plasticity, toolkits related to dopamine regulation, and much more.

因此，睡眠工具包、学习和可塑性工具包、与多巴胺调节相关的工具包等等。

Again, it's all zero cost.

再说一次，这一切都是零成本。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab, scroll down to newsletter, and simply enter your email and we do not share your email with anybody.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件，我们不会与任何人共享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining for today's discussion with Chris Voss.

再次感谢您参加今天与克里斯·沃斯的讨论。

And and last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。