Bill Eddy: How to Deal With High Conflict People
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Bill Eddy.
今天我的客人是比尔·艾迪。
Bill Eddy is a practicing lawyer, a professional mediator, a licensed therapist, and on the faculty of the School of Law at Pepperdine University.
比尔·艾迪 (Bill Eddy) 是一名执业律师、专业调解员、执业治疗师，并在佩珀代因大学法学院任教。
He is a world expert in conflict resolution, in particular, how to resolve conflicts with what are called high-conflict personalities.
他是解决冲突方面的世界专家，尤其是如何解决与所谓的高冲突人物的冲突方面的专家。
I should be very clear that these high-conflict personalities, as you'll learn today, are not in a category of so-called personality disorders.
我应该非常清楚，正如您今天将了解到的，这些高度冲突的性格并不属于所谓的人格障碍的范畴。
Now, it is the case that people with high-conflict personalities often also have borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, or suffer from bipolar depression.
现在的情况是，具有高度冲突性格的人往往也患有边缘型人格障碍、自恋型人格障碍，或者患有双相抑郁症。
However, as you'll soon learn, people who have this high-conflict personality type could fall into any one of those three different categories, any combination of them, or none of them at all.
然而，您很快就会了解到，具有这种高度冲突性格类型的人可能属于这三种不同类别中的任何一种、它们的任意组合，或者根本不属于其中任何一种。
These high-conflict personalities essentially come in two flavors.
这些高度冲突的性格本质上有两种类型。
Some are very outwardly combative.
有些人表面上非常好斗。
They like to argue.
他们喜欢争论。
They like to generate conflict in a way that's very overt, very obvious.
他们喜欢以一种非常公开、非常明显的方式产生冲突。
The others, which comprise about 50% of high-conflict personality types, are very passive.
其他人格类型则非常被动，约占高冲突人格类型的 50%。
They play the victim, or they leverage other people, so-called negative advocates, in order to achieve their goal of creating a lot of conflict where they always appear as the victim.
他们扮演受害者，或者利用其他人，即所谓的消极倡导者，以达到制造大量冲突的目标，而他们总是以受害者的形象出现。
During today's discussion, you'll learn how to identify these high-conflict personality types based on some very simple questions that you can ask yourself about them.
在今天的讨论中，您将学习如何根据一些非常简单的问题来识别这些高度冲突的性格类型，您可以问自己这些问题。
He also explains how to deal with these people in the workplace setting, in relationships, and importantly, of course, how to disengage from these people, not just in the short term, but permanently.
他还解释了如何在工作场所、人际关系中与这些人打交道，当然，更重要的是，如何摆脱这些人，不仅仅是短期的，而是永久的。
Now, across today's discussion, you'll realize that Bill Eddy is very sensitive both to the suffering that high-conflict personalities cause for other people, and therefore how to identify them, avoid them, and disengage from them.
现在，通过今天的讨论，你会发现比尔·艾迪对高度冲突的性格给他人带来的痛苦非常敏感，因此也对如何识别他们、避免他们以及摆脱他们感到非常敏感。
But he also makes it a point not to demonize these high-conflict personality types.
但他也强调不要妖魔化这些高度冲突的性格类型。
Instead, as a mediator, as a lawyer, and as a therapist, he is really most interested in helping people resolve their conflicts with these people and find the best, most peaceful path forward for conflict resolution.
相反，作为调解人、律师和治疗师，他真正最感兴趣的是帮助人们解决与这些人的冲突，并找到解决冲突的最佳、最和平的道路。
Dr. Bill Eddy is the author of several important books related to this topic and related topics, such as "Five Types of People That Can Ruin Your Life." It's an excellent book.
比尔·艾迪博士是几本与该主题和相关主题相关的重要书籍的作者，例如“可能毁掉你生活的五种类型的人”。这是一本很棒的书。
I've read it, and I highly recommend it for everyone.
我读过它，我强烈推荐给大家。
He's also written books about adult bullies, which are becoming increasingly common online and in real life, and about mediating conflict resolution and separations and things like divorce and in family court situations where he spent a lot of his professional career as a lawyer.
他还撰写了有关成人欺凌行为的书籍（这种行为在网上和现实生活中越来越常见），以及有关调解冲突解决和分居以及诸如离婚之类的事情以及家庭法庭情况的书籍，其中他的大部分职业生涯都是作为律师。
By the end of today's episode, you will have a lot of new practical tools for being able to identify these high-conflict personality types and learning how to navigate forward and, frankly, away from them in the best way possible.
在今天的节目结束时，您将拥有许多新的实用工具，能够识别这些高度冲突的性格类型，并学习如何向前迈进，坦率地说，以尽可能最好的方式远离它们。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is Maui Nui Venison.
我们的第一个赞助商是 Maui Nui Venison。
Maui Nui Venison is 100% wild harvested venison from the island of Maui, and it is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available.
毛伊努伊鹿肉是 100% 来自毛伊岛的野生鹿肉，是营养最丰富、最美味的红肉。
I've spoken before on this podcast about the fact that most of us should be consuming about one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight every day.
我之前在这个播客上谈到过这样一个事实：我们大多数人每天每磅体重应该摄入大约一克优质蛋白质。
That protein provides critical building blocks for things like muscle repair and synthesis, but it also promotes overall health given the importance of muscle tissue as an organ.
这种蛋白质为肌肉修复和合成等提供了关键的组成部分，但考虑到肌肉组织作为器官的重要性，它还可以促进整体健康。
Eating enough quality protein each day is also a terrific way to stave off hunger.
每天吃足够的优质蛋白质也是消除饥饿的好方法。
One of the key things, however, is to make sure that you're getting enough quality protein without ingesting excess calories.
然而，关键的事情之一是确保您获得足够的优质蛋白质而不摄入过多的热量。
Maui Nui Venison has an extremely high quality protein per calorie ratio, so that getting one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight is both easy and doesn't cause you to ingest an excess of calories.
毛伊努伊鹿肉具有极高的优质蛋白质每卡路里比例，因此每磅体重获取一克优质蛋白质既容易又不会导致您摄入过量的卡路里。
Also, Maui Nui Venison is absolutely delicious.
另外，茂宜岛鹿肉绝对美味。
They have venison steaks, ground venison, and venison bone broth.
他们有鹿肉排、鹿肉末和鹿骨汤。
I personally like all of those.
我个人喜欢所有这些。
In fact, I probably eat a Maui Nui Venison burger pretty much every day, and occasionally I'll swap that for a Maui Nui steak.
事实上，我可能几乎每天都会吃毛伊努伊鹿肉汉堡，偶尔我会把它换成毛伊努伊牛排。
And if you're traveling a lot or you're simply on the go, they have Maui Nui venison sticks, which have 10 grams of protein per stick at just 55 calories, and they're extremely convenient.
如果您经常旅行或者只是在旅途中，他们有毛伊努伊鹿肉棒，每棒含有 10 克蛋白质，仅 55 卡路里热量，而且非常方便。
You can pretty much take them anywhere.
你几乎可以带着它们去任何地方。
If you'd like to try Maui Nui Venison, you can go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off your membership or first order.
如果您想尝试 Maui Nui 鹿肉，您可以访问 mauinuivenison.com/huberman 享受会员资格或首次订单 20% 的折扣。
Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman.
同样，这是 mauinuivenison.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by ExpressVPN.
今天的节目也是ExpressVPN给我们带来的。
ExpressVPN is a virtual private network that keeps your data secure and private.
ExpressVPN 是一个虚拟专用网络，可确保您的数据安全和私密。
It does that by routing your internet activity through their servers and encrypting it so that no one can see or sell your data.
它通过他们的服务器路由您的互联网活动并对其进行加密，以便没有人可以看到或出售您的数据来做到这一点。
Now, I'm familiar with the effects of not securing my data well enough.
现在，我已经熟悉了数据保护不够好的后果。
Several years ago, I had one of my bank accounts hacked, and it was a terrible amount of work to have that reversed and for the account to be secured.
几年前，我的一个银行账户被黑了，要扭转局面并确保账户安全需要付出巨大的工作量。
When that happened, I talked to my friends in the tech community, and what they told me was that even though you think your internet connection may be secure, oftentimes it's not, especially if you're using Wi-Fi networks such as those on planes, in hotels, at coffee shops, and other public places.
当这种情况发生时，我与科技界的朋友交谈，他们告诉我，即使您认为您的互联网连接可能是安全的，但通常情况下并非如此，尤其是当您使用 Wi-Fi 网络（例如飞机上、酒店、咖啡店和其他公共场所的 Wi-Fi 网络）时。
Surprisingly, even at home, your data might not be as secure as you think.
令人惊讶的是，即使在家里，您的数据也可能不像您想象的那么安全。
To make sure that what I described before would never happen to me again, I started using ExpressVPN.
为了确保我之前描述的事情不会再发生在我身上，我开始使用 ExpressVPN。
The great thing about ExpressVPN is that I don't even notice that it's running since the connection it provides is so fast.
ExpressVPN 的伟大之处在于，我什至没有注意到它正在运行，因为它提供的连接速度非常快。
I have it on my computer and on my phone, and I keep it on whenever I'm connected to the internet.
我的电脑和手机上都有它，每当我连接到互联网时我都会保持它。
With ExpressVPN, I know everything is secure, my web browsing, all my passwords, all my data, and of course, anything that's behind an account wall, like a bank account.
有了 ExpressVPN，我知道一切都是安全的，包括我的网页浏览、所有密码、所有数据，当然还有账户墙后面的任何内容，例如银行账户。
It can't be tracked and no one can access or steal your data, which is terrific.
它无法被跟踪，没有人可以访问或窃取您的数据，这非常棒。
If you'd like to start protecting your internet activity using ExpressVPN, you can go to expressvpn.com/huberman, and you can get an extra three months free.
如果您想开始使用 ExpressVPN 保护您的互联网活动，您可以访问expressvpn.com/huberman，您可以获得额外三个月的免费试用期。
Again, that's expressvpn.com/huberman to get an extra three months free.
再次强调，通过expressvpn.com/huberman可以获得额外三个月的免费服务。
And now for my discussion with Bill Eddy.
现在我与比尔·艾迪进行讨论。
Bill Eddy, welcome.
比尔·艾迪，欢迎。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Thanks so much for having me.
非常感谢你邀请我。
I'm excited to discuss this with you.
我很高兴与您讨论这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've read your books.
我读过你的书。
I learned about them from perhaps one of the smartest people I know.
我从我认识的最聪明的人之一那里了解到了它们。
She said, "You should check out this book called 'Five Types of People That Can Ruin Your Life.'" And I said, "Well, that's an impressive title." And I tore through the book, learned a ton.
她说，“你应该看看这本书，名叫《可能毁掉你生活的五种人》。”我说，“嗯，这是一个令人印象深刻的书名。”我翻阅了这本书，学到了很多东西。
You have a number of other books.
你还有很多其他的书。
I mentioned them in my introduction, and I suppose it's appropriate to say that you are an expert in conflict, conflict resolution, and in particular, how to deal with people that are high conflict.
我在介绍中提到过它们，我想应该说您是冲突、冲突解决，特别是如何与高度冲突的人打交道的专家。
So maybe you could just tell us what a high conflict person is, how common are these people, and how does this overlap with some of the more traditional, quote-unquote, "diagnoses of personality disorders?"
所以也许你可以告诉我们什么是高度冲突的人，这些人有多常见，以及这与一些更传统的、不引用的“人格障碍的诊断”有何重叠？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
It's fascinating because I started out as a clinical social worker working with children and families in psychiatric hospitals, outpatient clinics, but I really like conflict resolution.
这很有趣，因为我一开始是一名临床社会工作者，在精神病院、门诊诊所与儿童和家庭一起工作，但我真的很喜欢解决冲突。
So I went to law school to get a law degree so I could do mediation, other conflict resolution, and I practice family law.
所以我去法学院获得了法律学位，这样我就可以从事调解和其他冲突解决工作，并且我还从事家庭法工作。
And when I started in family court, I noticed right away that a lot of the conflict seemed to be driven by people's personalities rather than the legal issue, because I was also doing mediation in my office.
当我开始在家事法庭工作时，我立即注意到很多冲突似乎是由人们的性格而不是法律问题引起的，因为我也在办公室进行调解。
I go to court in the morning, do mediation in the afternoon, same exact issues.
我早上去法庭，下午做调解，同样的问题。
In the morning, people were stuck for two or three years.
一早上，人就被困了两三年了。
In the afternoon, two or three mediation sessions, shook hands, went separate ways.
下午，两三场调解，握手，分道扬镳。
So in family court, a lot of people aren't familiar with this, but since the 1980s, there's been the use of the term high conflict families.
所以在家事法庭上，很多人对此并不熟悉，但从 20 世纪 80 年代开始，就开始使用“高度冲突家庭”这个词。
And family court lawyers, judges, mediators, therapists identified high conflict families as repeatedly coming to court to make decisions, as having a lot of hostility, of just seeming driven in one direction, unable to be flexible, and in many ways, unable to truly have empathy for their kids, so they'd fight over their kids.
家庭法庭的律师、法官、调解员、治疗师发现，高度冲突的家庭会反复到法庭上做决定，充满敌意，似乎只是朝着一个方向发展，无法保持灵活性，而且在很多方面都无法真正同情孩子，所以他们会为了孩子而争吵。
And so high conflict families was a term when I became a lawyer in 1993, I was like, "Wait a minute, these aren't high conflict families." These have maybe one, maybe two people with high conflict personalities or traits of personality disorders, which I knew about since 1980 and working in hospitals and outpatient clinics.
当我 1993 年成为一名律师时，高度冲突家庭是一个术语，我当时想，“等一下，这些不是高度冲突家庭。”这些人中可能有一个，也可能有两个具有高度冲突性格或人格障碍特征的人，这是我从 1980 年在医院和门诊诊所工作时就知道的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you're also a clinical psychologist.
因为您也是一名临床心理学家。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Clinical social work.
临床社会工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Clinical social worker.
临床社会工作者。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
So I got a master's in social work in 1981.
1981年我获得了社会工作硕士学位。
Then I got licensed to do therapy on my own.
然后我获得了自己进行治疗的许可。
So I'm a licensed clinical social worker in California.
所以我是加利福尼亚州的一名有执照的临床社会工作者。
I can diagnose disorders.
我可以诊断疾病。
I can do treatment without supervision.
我可以在没有监督的情况下进行治疗。
I went through that, and that's how I became licensed.
我经历了这一切，这就是我获得许可的方式。
So when I came into family court, I go, "This is the same patterns when I was working, say, with people in the psychiatric hospital who had addictions, depression, all these problems," and my job as the hospital social worker was to help them with their outside problems, their family problems.
因此，当我进入家庭法庭时，我会说，“这与我在精神病院工作时的模式是一样的，比如说，治疗那些患有成瘾、抑郁和所有这些问题的人”，而我作为医院社会工作者的工作就是帮助他们解决外部问题、家庭问题。
So I did family counseling for the patients.
所以我为病人做了家庭咨询。
With their job, maybe their employer wanted to fire them because of their behavior, and I tried to help keep their job.
在他们的工作中，也许他们的雇主因为他们的行为而想解雇他们，而我试图帮助他们保住工作。
Maybe they were getting evicted.
也许他们正被驱逐。
Their landlord couldn't stand their behavior.
他们的房东无法忍受他们的行为。
And I'd solve one problem, and I'd go, "I've got you into marriage counseling, and your husband or wife's committed to working on the relationship." And I'd go, "Yay, I accomplished something." Next day, "Bill, my landlord, wants to kick me out." Okay.
我会解决一个问题，然后说：“我已经让你接受婚姻咨询，你的丈夫或妻子也致力于改善这段关系。”我会说，“是的，我完成了一些事情。”第二天，“我的房东比尔想把我赶出去。”好的。
I'd convince their landlord to give them one more chance.
我会说服他们的房东再给他们一次机会。
"Yay.
“是啊。
Bill, my job, wants to fire me.
比尔，我的工作，想解雇我。
Can you help?" What they have is a pattern of conflict behavior that doesn't get resolved, and that's the high conflict families that I saw in family court.
你能帮忙吗？”他们所拥有的是一种无法解决的冲突行为模式，这就是我在家庭法庭上看到的高度冲突的家庭。
So that's where that connection came from, which I would not have arrived at if I hadn't been a therapist and also a lawyer.
这就是这种联系的来源，如果我不是治疗师和律师，我就不会达到这种联系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My understanding from reading your book is that this high conflict personality phenotype is equally distributed between men and women.
我从读你的书中了解到，这种高度冲突的人格表型在男性和女性之间平均分布。
What is the percentage of people that have this high conflict phenotype?
具有这种高度冲突表型的人所占的百分比是多少？
And then maybe we can drill into a little bit of how that shows up, its different forms of expression.
然后也许我们可以深入研究一下它是如何出现的，它的不同表达形式。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, let me say a little bit about the difference between high conflict personalities and personality disorders, because we have a lot of research on personality disorders, including statistics, which I'll give you.
好吧，让我说一下高冲突人格和人格障碍之间的区别，因为我们对人格障碍有很多研究，包括统计数据，我会给你的。
We don't have a lot of research on high conflict personalities.
我们对高冲突性格的研究并不多。
People have talked about it, like I said, since the 1980s in family court.
正如我所说，自 20 世纪 80 年代以来，人们就在家庭法庭上讨论过这个问题。
And my own observations with thousands of cases of high conflict personalities is it's pretty much men and women.
我自己对数千个高度冲突性格的案例的观察是，几乎都是男性和女性。
My law practice, I represented pretty much 50/50 men and women, mostly custody disputes, mothers and fathers.
在我的律师事务所中，我代表了几乎 50/50 的男性和女性，其中大部分是监护权纠纷、母亲和父亲。
So I got a good impression.
所以给我留下了很好的印象。
Personality disorders, there's a lot of research on, and I mention in the book some statistics, and they came from the personality disorder research.
关于人格障碍，有很多研究，我在书中提到了一些统计数据，它们来自人格障碍研究。
So what they found, they studied the 10 personality disorders.
他们研究了 10 种人格障碍，发现了这一点。
In the early 2000s, a big study, National Institutes of Health, the alcoholism subdivision of NIH.
2000 年代初期，美国国立卫生研究院 (NIH) 的酗酒部门进行了一项大型研究。
They wanted to see how prevalent personality disorders were with substance abuse, with domestic conflicts, with criminal behavior, and workplace conflicts.
他们想了解人格障碍在药物滥用、家庭冲突、犯罪行为和工作场所冲突中的普遍程度。
And so this study, they looked at all 10 personalities, came up with numbers for each.
因此，在这项研究中，他们考察了所有 10 个人，并为每个人得出了数字。
Five of them seem prone to high-conflict behavior.
其中五个人似乎容易出现高度冲突的行为。
So these five I can give you statistics on, and I can give you a breakdown, male and female, all from 20 years ago, big study, because it hasn't been repeated since.
所以我可以给你们统计这五个人，我可以给你们细分，男性和女性，都是20年前的，大研究，因为从那以后就没有重复过。
So basically, Cluster B, that's narcissistic, borderline, antisocial, histrionic, but we see a lot of paranoid in legal disputes, and some research says paranoid personality disorder is the most likely to sue their employer of the personality disorders.
所以基本上，B类，是自恋、边缘、反社会、做作的，但我们在法律纠纷中看到很多偏执狂，一些研究表明偏执型人格障碍最有可能起诉他们的雇主有人格障碍。
So that's gotten attention, too.
所以这也引起了人们的关注。
So here's some numbers.
这是一些数字。
First of all, narcissistic personality disorder, they found was about 6% of adults in the United States.
首先，他们发现美国成年人中约有 6% 患有自恋型人格障碍。
They found the statistics on that was 38% female and 62% male.
他们发现统计数据显示，女性占 38%，男性占 62%。
So that's more heavily male, 20 years ago.
所以 20 年前，男性的比例更大。
Could be different now because of environmental influences.
由于环境影响，现在可能会有所不同。
Borderline, also about 6%.
临界点，也在6%左右。
This was 53% female, 47% male, almost 50/50.
其中 53% 为女性，47% 为男性，几乎是 50/50。
And that shocked the mental health world, because we've always thought of borderline as a female disorder.
这震惊了心理健康界，因为我们一直认为边缘性障碍是一种女性疾病。
But Marsha Linehan, the big name in treatment for borderline, says she agrees.
但边缘性治疗领域的知名人士玛莎·莱恩汉 (Marsha Linehan) 表示她同意这一观点。
She thinks that's true, and I think that's true as a family lawyer because a lot of the men that we see engaged in domestic violence seem to have the borderline personality pattern, and the domestic violence is much more male than female.
她认为这是真的，我认为作为家庭律师也是如此，因为我们看到的很多从事家庭暴力的男性似乎都具有边缘人格模式，而且家庭暴力的男性多于女性。
Then antisocial, it's around 4%, and that's about 75% male, 25% female.
然后是反社会的，大约是 4%，其中大约 75% 是男性，25% 是女性。
Histrionic is about 2%, and they found this is about 50/50, which again, surprised people, because you think drama, center of attention, all of that.
表演性的比例约为 2%，他们发现这个比例约为 50/50，这再次让人们感到惊讶，因为你认为戏剧性、注意力中心，所有这些。
And this may be very much environmental influence.
这可能是很大的环境影响。
Our culture today teaches, especially young men, to try to get attention.
我们今天的文化教导人们，尤其是年轻人，要努力引起注意。
Ride your skateboard behind a car or jump off a building, do all these dramatic things to get attention.
在汽车后面骑滑板或从建筑物上跳下，做所有这些戏剧性的事情来引起注意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or social media.
或者社交媒体。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And social media's really encouraged that.
社交媒体确实鼓励了这一点。
Everyone wants attention, and now you kind of have to fight for it in our culture.
每个人都希望得到关注，而现在你必须在我们的文化中为之奋斗。
And so men as well as women are getting out there often in dramatic ways.
因此，男人和女人经常以戏剧性的方式走出去。
So it came out about 50/50.
所以结果大约是 50/50。
Paranoid, it's about 4%, came out, I think it was 57% to 43%, somewhere right around that.
偏执狂，大约是 4%，出来后，我认为是 57% 到 43%，大约在这个数字左右。
A little more heavily female, but not all that far apart.
女性的比例稍重一些，但相差也不是那么远。
Altogether, it's really roughly 50/50.
总而言之，实际上大约是 50/50。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
And how does this high-conflict personality cut through all these personality disorder phenotypes?
这种高度冲突的性格是如何克服所有这些人格障碍表型的呢？
Oh, and I should also ask, I could imagine that some people who are borderline, perhaps, are also histrionic.
哦，我还应该问，我可以想象，有些边缘人也许也是装腔作势的。
Is that possible to fall-
是否有可能坠落——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
There can be
可以有
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
into multiple categories?
分为多个类别？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And the study actually broke down some of that.
这项研究实际上打破了其中的一些观点。
So in the research, particularly one that I remember is borderline and narcissists, and it came out around 38% overlap.
所以在这项研究中，我记得特别是一个边缘型和自恋者，结果有大约 38% 的重叠。
So, and I teach-
所以，我教——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People who are borderline also can often be narcissists.
边缘人也常常是自恋者。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Have narcissistic personality disorder.
有自恋型人格障碍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And so this is personality disorder overlap.
这就是人格障碍的重叠。
Now, there's a whole continuum here.
现在，这里有一个完整的连续体。
So many people have traits but don't have a disorder.
很多人都有特征，但没有疾病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
The current DSM says the total personality disorders is around 10%.
目前DSM称人格障碍总数约为10%。
Now, that's taking an average of studies from around the world.
现在，这是世界各地研究的平均值。
The study I quoted earlier in the US said 15% have a personality disorder.
我之前在美国引用的一项研究称，15% 的人患有人格障碍。
So in the US, we're seeing that's significant.
所以在美国，我们看到这很重要。
That's the one that said 38% overlap borderlines and narcissists.
那个人说 38% 的人与边缘人和自恋者重叠。
I think that it fits for me, because when I teach lawyers from my own experience, I can say, "You have a client that comes on like a narcissist.
我认为这适合我，因为当我根据自己的经验教授律师时，我可以说，“你的客户表现得像个自恋者。
They're very self-centered and putting you down, saying they're superior.
他们非常以自我为中心，贬低你，说他们很优秀。
Here are some tips to deal with them." But they also may have wide mood swings, which is more associated with borderline.
这里有一些应对它们的技巧。”但他们也可能有很大的情绪波动，这与边缘性更相关。
So you need to butter up their ego honestly, praise them for something that's real that they did.
所以你需要诚实地迎合他们的自尊心，赞扬他们所做的真实的事情。
But also, they really need empathy.
但同时，他们也确实需要同理心。
They have wide mood swings, that's someone that needs a lot of empathy.
他们的情绪波动很大，需要很多同理心。
Say, "Wow, I can see how upset you are.
说：“哇，我知道你有多难过。
This is so important," and they calm down.
这太重要了，”他们平静下来。
So you have to use both sets of responses to deal with someone that has that combination.
所以你必须使用两组反应来对付具有这种组合的人。
You mentioned borderline and histrionic.
你提到了边缘性和表演性。
There's a lot of similarities, so we see overlap with that.
有很多相似之处，所以我们看到了重叠之处。
But I've seen every combination.
但我见过每一种组合。
But what I don't know in family court is, is it the disorder or just traits?
但我在家庭法庭上不知道的是，这是疾病还是只是特征？
And the disorder doesn't matter to me.
这种疾病对我来说并不重要。
It's the pattern that matters, because if I see this pattern, I know I should do that.
重要的是模式，因为如果我看到这种模式，我就知道我应该这样做。
That's the key.
这就是关键。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can imagine that in family court it's especially complicated given that some of these things, not all, but some of these have a genetic component, certainly a situational component.
我可以想象，在家庭法庭上，情况尤其复杂，因为其中一些事情（不是全部），但其中一些具有遗传成分，当然还有情境成分。
So you could potentially be dealing with trying to work out a situation for the benefit of children that have some of the same personality disorders as their parents.
因此，您可能正在努力解决与父母有相同人格障碍的孩子的利益问题。
Could be really tricky.
可能真的很棘手。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Well, what's interesting, and it's very rewarding work when things can go well, when the lawyers get it, the judge gets it, everyone gets it, what's happening, they can make orders that fit the situation and help protect children from bad behavior and help get parents some help.
嗯，有趣的是，当事情进展顺利时，这是非常有价值的工作，当律师明白了，法官明白了，每个人都明白了，正在发生什么，他们可以做出适合情况的命令，帮助保护孩子免受不良行为的侵害，并帮助父母获得一些帮助。
So substance abuse is a bigger issue in family court than personality disorders, but almost neck and neck.
因此，在家庭法庭上，药物滥用是比人格障碍更大的问题，但几乎并驾齐驱。
We talk about substance abuse all the time openly.
我们一直公开谈论药物滥用。
There's treatment.
有治疗。
Everyone recognizes the signs.
每个人都认识这些标志。
We don't talk about personality disorders in our culture, and that's like flying under the radar.
在我们的文化中，我们不谈论人格障碍，这就像在雷达下飞行一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So Ari, I'm just going to pause you for a second there.
阿里，我要让你暂停一下。
I think it's such a key point, in a very interesting paper that you sent me, which by the way, I'll provide a link to in our show note captions.
我认为这是一个关键点，在您发给我的一篇非常有趣的论文中，顺便说一句，我将在我们的节目笔记标题中提供指向该论文的链接。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It essentially kicks off by saying that the movement toward explaining to people what alcohol, I think they now call it alcohol use disorder or alcoholism-
它本质上是从向人们解释什么是酒精的运动开始的，我认为他们现在称之为酒精使用障碍或酒精中毒——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was and is in the 1970s and '80s, was a crucial move forward for the judicial system.
无论是过去还是现在，无论是在 20 世纪 70 年代还是 80 年代，这对于司法系统来说都是一个关键的进步。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think nowadays, people generally understand that addiction is not just a lack of willpower.
我认为现在人们普遍认识到成瘾不仅仅是缺乏意志力。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That there are brain circuits that become hijacked by substances or behaviors, that these brain circuits were designed to promote our adaptive evolution, but they can be hijacked by behaviors and substances that render people really just unable to control their addictive behavior.
有些大脑回路会被物质或行为劫持，这些大脑回路是为了促进我们的适应性进化而设计的，但它们可能会被行为和物质劫持，使人们真的无法控制他们的成瘾行为。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think nowadays that box is checked.
我认为现在这个框已被选中。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's wonderful that the judicial system understands that, right?
司法系统能够理解这一点真是太好了，对吧？
Because then it can work with that.
因为这样它就可以工作了。
I don't think that the general public has yet come to the full appreciation of these personality disorders and these high-conflict personalities and how pervasive they are, probably because of their prevalence.
我认为公众还没有充分认识到这些人格障碍和这些高度冲突的性格以及它们的普遍性，可能是因为它们的普遍存在。
It's just sort of all around us and in all sorts of interactions.
它就在我们周围以及各种互动中。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And here's the question, high-conflict interactions tend to be quote unquote "dramatic."
问题是，高度冲突的互动往往是“戏剧性的”。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there tends to be almost a reward for dramatic behavior, as you said, online, in politics, in the media.
正如你所说，在网上、政治上、媒体上，戏剧性的行为往往会得到回报。
The more dramatic, the more salience.
越戏剧化，越显着。
The more salience, the more people click, the more the people watch.
越突出，点击的人越多，观看的人就越多。
And then the algorithms are designed to look at dwell time, which is nerd speak for how long people look at stuff.
然后算法被设计用来观察停留时间，这是书呆子所说的人们看东西的时间。
And so you could see how this stuff could be fed in the same way that for nearly 75 years leading up to the 1970s, alcohol use disorder was sort of fed by the culture.
所以你可以看到这些东西是如何以同样的方式喂养的，在 20 世纪 70 年代之前的近 75 年里，酒精使用障碍在某种程度上是由文化喂养的。
You have your 5:00 PM happy hour.
您有下午 5:00 的欢乐时光。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Coming up in science, I would go to scientific meetings, and it was like, "Okay, five o'clock hits.
当我进入科学领域时，我会去参加科学会议，就像是，“好吧，五点钟了。
Let's all drink." And I always thought, this is kind of crazy, especially given that there was also a lot of concern about the kinds of interactions that drinking can create in the work environment.
我们都喝酒吧。”我一直认为，这有点疯狂，尤其是考虑到人们对饮酒在工作环境中可能产生的各种互动也有很多担忧。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
It leads to high-conflict behavior.
它会导致高度冲突的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
So anyway, I don't want to riff too long on this, but first of all, this is just lauding the important work that you're doing.
所以无论如何，我不想在这个问题上重复太多，但首先，这只是赞扬你正在做的重要工作。
Second, how should we think about this high-conflict personality phenotype?
其次，我们应该如何看待这种高度冲突的人格表型？
Should we be calling people out like, "Oh, hey, that's a narcissist.
我们是否应该这样称呼人们，“哦，嘿，那是个自恋者。
Hey, that's a borderline histrionic person." Or is there a more, I guess, something that embraces a little bit more of the humanity and the real issue at hand?
嘿，那是一个边缘戏剧化的人。”或者我想，还有更多的东西包含了更多的人性和眼前的真正问题吗？
I think that's what you're trying to do.
我认为这就是你想要做的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
And you may have seen me shaking my head no when you said, "Should we point this out to people?" That's the last thing you want to do.
当你说“我们应该向人们指出这一点吗？”时，你可能看到我摇头不。这是你最不想做的事。
In fact, don't do that.
事实上，不要这样做。
And the reason why is personality disorders-- Oh, let me just quickly distinguish between personality disorders, high-conflict personalities.
原因是人格障碍——哦，让我快速区分一下人格障碍和高冲突人格。
The difference, and there's a chart in the beginning of the book with two circles overlapping, a lot of overlap, but the main thing about personality disorders is they're stuck in a narrow range of interpersonal behavior.
区别在于，书的开头有一个图表，两个圆圈重叠，有很多重叠，但人格障碍的主要问题是他们陷入了狭窄的人际行为范围。
So some aren't high-conflict people, some are.
所以有些人不是高度冲突的人，有些人是。
Thing about high-conflict people is that they're preoccupied with blame, that blaming others is a big part of their life.
高度冲突的人的特点是他们全神贯注于责备，责备他人是他们生活的重要组成部分。
So when you're dealing with a high-conflict person who's blaming and has a personality disorder, you get a stuck pattern of behavior.
因此，当你与一个经常互相指责、有人格障碍的人打交道时，你的行为模式就会陷入困境。
You get high-conflict personalities or high-conflict people.
你会遇到高度冲突的性格或高度冲突的人。
So they're persistent in acting that way.
所以他们坚持这样做。
That's the overlap with personality disorders is they don't reflect, they don't change, they just keep blaming everybody out there.
这与人格障碍的重叠之处在于它们不反思，不改变，只是不断责怪外面的每个人。
So recognizing that difference and similarity.
因此认识到这种差异和相似性。
So about half of people, I think, with personality disorders, and this is just my estimate, have high-conflict personalities and about half don't.
因此，我认为，大约一半患有人格障碍的人（这只是我的估计）具有高度冲突的性格，而大约一半的人则没有。
I've worked with borderlines in the psych hospital, narcissists that don't blame other people, narcissists that are just self-centered, and borderlines who are more frustrated with themselves than anybody else.
我曾在精神病院与边缘型患者一起工作过，他们是不责怪他人的自恋者，只是以自我为中心的自恋者，以及对自己比其他任何人都更沮丧的边缘型患者。
So that's an important distinction.
所以这是一个重要的区别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You beautifully distinguish between high-conflict personalities and these personality disorders.
您可以很好地区分高冲突性格和这些人格障碍。
And I just want to make sure everyone hears again that about half of people with personality disorders would fall into this high-conflict personality-
我只是想确保每个人都再次听到大约一半患有人格障碍的人会陷入这种高度冲突的人格 -
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
In my estimation.
据我估计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
I don't have research yet.
我还没有研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And the distinguishing feature seems to be that high-conflict personalities are often or constantly casting blame on others for the difficulties of their life, essentially.
其显着特征似乎是，本质上，高度冲突的人格经常或不断地将自己生活中的困难归咎于他人。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And that's why they have conflicts.
这就是他们发生冲突的原因。
And they escalate instead of getting worked on and resolved.
而且它们会升级而不是得到解决和解决。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I can imagine that the high-conflict person doesn't always appear as high conflict.
所以我可以想象，高度冲突的人并不总是表现得高度冲突。
In fact, this is something that you've alluded to many times already in this conversation, and certainly in your book, that sometimes these high-conflict personalities come in kind of under the radar, and that can be confusing to people, or they can go undetected for a long time.
事实上，你在这次谈话中已经多次提到过这一点，当然在你的书中也提到过，有时这些高度冲突的人物会在雷达之下出现，这可能会让人们感到困惑，或者他们可能会很长一段时间不被发现。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
So part of it goes with the specific personalities.
所以它的一部分与特定的个性有关。
So high-conflict people with borderline personality traits or histrionic personality traits are often more openly dramatic, and so they might really shock you that suddenly they start yelling, screaming, throwing things just because you're having an average conversation.
因此，具有边缘性人格特征或戏剧性人格特征的高度冲突的人通常会更加公开地戏剧化，因此他们可能会因为你正在进行一次普通的谈话而突然开始大喊大叫、尖叫、扔东西，这可能会让你感到震惊。
Very disproportionate.
非常不成比例。
But some, and it tends to be more of the antisocial personalities, some narcissistic personalities, can look really reasonable on the surface.
但有些人，往往是反社会人格，一些自恋型人格，表面上看起来确实很合理。
And they've actually had a lifetime of experience at looking good, which kind of covers up all the stuff under the surface.
事实上，他们一生都在保持漂亮的外表下积累了丰富的经验，但这种经验掩盖了表面之下的所有东西。
And I think of a couple examples.
我想到了几个例子。
So, for example, and I deal sometimes with domestic violence cases, so let's say an abuser in court says, "Oh, well, I was helping her because she was so upset I took her keys away, and I held her down on the bed because I was afraid she would leave and get into a car crash." Well, there may be rare occasions where that's true, but that's a common story that we get from domestic abusers.
举例来说，我有时会处理家庭暴力案件，假设一名施虐者在法庭上说：“哦，好吧，我在帮助她，因为她很沮丧，我拿走了她的钥匙，我把她按在床上，因为我担心她会离开并陷入车祸。”嗯，这种情况可能很少见，但这是我们从家庭虐待者那里听到的常见故事。
Or in court, I've seen this, where there'll be a very reasonable person kind of explaining the situation, and their partner, more often a woman, is just emotional, is a mess, maybe even in tears.
或者在法庭上，我见过这样的情况，会有一个非常通情达理的人解释情况，而他们的伴侣，通常是女性，只是情绪化，一团糟，甚至可能在流泪。
And people don't realize about 80% of divorces in court today, people represent themselves.
人们没有意识到，如今法庭上大约 80% 的离婚案都是人们代表自己。
And so there's these conversations, and the judge is like, "Whoa, this guy's being really reasonable, and this woman's a mess.
于是就有了这些对话，法官就像是，“哇，这家伙真的很有道理，而这个女人却一团糟。
I'm going to go with what he's saying." And so a lot of stuff slips under the radar that way.
我会按照他的说法去做。”因此，很多事情就这样被忽视了。
But gender-wise, it could be the reverse.
但从性别角度来看，情况可能恰恰相反。
In a lot of relationships people get into, people make themselves look really good, and then the negative stuff comes out weeks, months, maybe a year or later.
在人们建立的很多关系中，人们让自己看起来非常好，然后几周、几个月、也许一年或更晚，负面的东西就会出现。
So that's why we say wait a year until you decide to commit, because nowadays, who knows?
所以这就是为什么我们说等一年直到你决定做出承诺，因为现在，谁知道呢？
You may have someone that really is good at covering their bad behavior.
你可能有一个真正擅长掩盖自己不良行为的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, let's hover on that one particular point, because this is perhaps one of the most important takeaways from your work.
是的，让我们将鼠标悬停在这一特定点上，因为这可能是您工作中最重要的收获之一。
Could you just spell out this first year principle?
您能详细说明一下第一年的原则吗？
And perhaps it's useful for us to also acknowledge that, yes, there are a great many truly great stories about people who met one weekend, two weeks later, got married, and then we're hearing the story 50 years later when they've got grandkids and great-grandkids, they thrived.
也许对我们来说，承认这一点也是有用的：是的，有很多真正伟大的故事，讲述的是人们在一个周末、两周后相遇、结婚，然后我们在 50 年后听到这个故事，当他们有了孙子和曾孙时，他们茁壮成长。
Or people met, got engaged three months later, or in some cases, got pregnant three months later, and they have this wonderful marriage and family story to tell.
或者人们在三个月后相识、订婚，或者在某些情况下，三个月后怀孕，他们有一个美好的婚姻和家庭故事可以讲述。
We hear these stories, and they're really wonderful stories, right?
我们听到这些故事，它们真的很精彩，对吧？
They sort of affirm your belief in humanity-
他们某种程度上肯定了你对人性的信念——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when you hear those stories.
当你听到这些故事时。
And they are powerful, but in discussing a little bit of this with you offline, you probably have witnessed more cases where people rushed, and that rushing to commit or to create led to more problems than it did good.
它们很强大，但在与你线下讨论这一点时，你可能目睹了更多人们匆忙的情况，而匆忙地承诺或创造会导致更多的问题而不是好的结果。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
And that's many of the high-conflict divorces that I've worked on as a lawyer and before that as a therapist and sometimes as a mediator are, in my mind, kind of the bad luck stories.
在我看来，我作为一名律师以及在此之前作为一名治疗师，有时还作为调解人处理过的许多高度冲突的离婚案件都是不幸的故事。
Got a decent person, usually my client, of course, but something happened, they got together too fast, and then all this stuff came out.
有一个正派的人，当然通常是我的客户，但是发生了一些事情，他们聚得太快了，然后所有这些东西都出来了。
And I really believe in today's world that it is a matter of luck, and that's why you should take a year to find out, did I draw the short straw in this relationship?
我真的相信在当今世界，这是一个运气问题，这就是为什么你应该花一年的时间来找出，我是否在这段关系中画了最后一根稻草？
Have I got this perfect-looking person, great record, all these good things?
我有这个完美的人、出色的记录以及所有这些美好的东西吗？
But close relationships is where personality disorders come out, interpersonal difficulty, and the high-conflict behaviors, mostly close relationships.
但亲密关系是人格障碍、人际交往困难和高冲突行为的根源，主要是亲密关系。
So everyone might like them at work, but when you're home alone with them, they could be really terrible, yelling, hitting, doing all of this stuff.
所以每个人在工作时可能都喜欢他们，但当你独自在家和他们在一起时，他们可能真的很糟糕，大喊大叫，打人，做所有这些事情。
So that's why we say wait a year.
所以这就是为什么我们说等一年。
I've had a lot of cases where people tell me, "We just fell in love.
我遇到过很多这样的情况，人们告诉我：“我们刚刚坠入爱河。
It was beautiful, and everything was wonderful for about six months.
那里很美，大约六个月的时间里一切都很美好。
And then when I committed to get married, all this stuff started showing up.
然后当我决定结婚时，所有这些事情开始出现。
But I got married anyway because I figured, well, time and love will heal everything." Only it didn't.
但我还是结婚了，因为我想，好吧，时间和爱会治愈一切。”但事实并非如此。
So in today's world, there's a higher risk of getting a high-conflict relationship, I must say.
因此，我必须说，在当今世界，出现高度冲突的关系的风险更高。
And the description you gave is what people often tell me.
你给出的描述是人们经常告诉我的。
They say, "My grandparents got married a week after they met, and they just celebrated their 60th anniversary.
他们说：“我的祖父母认识一周后就结婚了，他们刚刚庆祝了 60 周年纪念日。
They're still in love.
他们仍然相爱。
Everything's wonderful." Your grandparents tended to know who they were marrying.
一切都很棒。”你的祖父母往往知道他们要嫁给谁。
In today's world, not only don't you know, you don't have a history, but high-conflict people have learned to cover up the full range of who they are.
在当今世界，你不仅不知道，也没有历史，而且冲突频繁的人们已经学会了全面掩盖自己的真实身份。
And they're not bad people, and that's something I want to emphasize.
他们不是坏人，这是我想强调的。
They just have a different personality, and they may have been born this way, but they don't come with markings.
他们只是性格不同，也许生来就是这样，但他们并没有带有标记。
They don't come with the music like of "Jaws," doo, doo, doo, doo.
他们没有像《大白鲨》那样伴随着“嘟、嘟、嘟、嘟”的音乐。
They look good, and anybody, I think, is at risk of falling into a relationship like this.
他们看起来不错，我认为任何人都有陷入这样的关系的风险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
By now, many of you have heard me say that if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.
到目前为止，你们很多人都听我说过，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。
The reason for that is AG1 is the highest quality and most complete of the foundational nutritional supplements available.
原因是 AG1 是现有的基础营养补充剂中质量最高、最全面的。
What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps you may have in your diet and provide support for a demanding life.
这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还含有益生菌、益生元和适应原，可以弥补您饮食中可能存在的任何空白，并为高要求的生活提供支持。
For me, even if I eat mostly whole foods and minimally processed foods, which I do for most of my food intake, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits and vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone.
对我来说，即使我主要吃天然食品和最低限度加工的食品（这是我摄入的大部分食物的一部分），我也很难仅从食物中获取足够的水果和蔬菜、维生素和矿物质、微量营养素和适应原。
For that reason, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012 and often twice a day, once in the morning or mid-morning, and again in the afternoon or evening.
因此，自 2012 年以来，我每天服用 AG1，通常每天两次，一次在早上或上午，一次在下午或晚上。
When I do that, it clearly bolsters my energy, my immune system, and my gut microbiome.
当我这样做时，它明显增强了我的能量、我的免疫系统和我的肠道微生物组。
These are all critical to brain function, mood, physical performance, and much more.
这些对于大脑功能、情绪、身体表现等都至关重要。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim their special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
Right now, they're giving away five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.
目前，他们赠送五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim that special offer.
再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别优惠。
I definitely want to come back to this point that you made that you're not demonizing these people.
我绝对想回到你所说的这一点，你并没有妖魔化这些人。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're talking about how to behave with them or how to not behave with them in some cases, in order to try and create the smoothest possible interactions, in some cases, no interaction.
您正在谈论在某些情况下如何与他们相处或如何不与他们相处，以便尝试创建最顺畅的互动，在某些情况下，没有互动。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if we could hover still a bit more on this first year idea.
但如果我们能在第一年的想法上再徘徊一点就好了。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My understanding is that no getting engaged, or for that matter, married, no conceiving children, and no moving in together in year one.
我的理解是，第一年不要订婚，或者结婚，不要怀孕，也不要同居。
Are those the critical?
这些是关键吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Except for the last one, is it's really don't commit like getting married within the first year.
除了最后一个，真的不像第一年结婚那样承诺。
Sometimes moving in together is a good way to find out what it's like up close with this person.
有时，搬到一起住是了解这个人近距离接触的好方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you learn a lot by living with somebody.
是的，和某人一起生活你会学到很多东西。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
That's right.
没错。
And personality disorders, part of the definition is interpersonal dysfunction.
人格障碍的部分定义是人际关系功能障碍。
And that's close, that's close relationships.
这就是亲密关系。
So if you haven't had that close relationship, you don't see what happens when you leave your socks out or the caps off the toothpaste, and some little thing is some huge storm.
所以，如果你们没有那么亲密的关系，你就看不到当你把袜子放在外面或牙膏盖上时会发生什么，一些小事就会引发一场巨大的风暴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or when somebody's sleep deprived.
或者当某人睡眠不足时。
I always say you learn a lot about somebody after a bad night's sleep.
我总是说，经过一夜不好的睡眠后，你会对某人了解很多。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You and them, right?
你和他们，对吧？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know?
你知道吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
But the key is patterns of behavior.
但关键是行为模式。
So one thing I want to say is everybody gets angry sometimes.
所以我想说的一件事是每个人有时都会生气。
That's fine.
没关系。
Everybody yells sometimes.
每个人有时都会大喊大叫。
Everybody criticizes sometimes.
每个人都有批评的时候。
But if they have a pattern, like their life pattern of relationship is to yell and scream and criticize and all of that, whoa.
但如果他们有一种模式，就像他们的生活关系模式就是大喊大叫、批评等等，哇。
This pattern is probably going to keep going.
这种模式可能会继续下去。
And as I mentioned earlier, I believe, with personality disorders, it's a narrower pattern of behavior, so it's more pattern-driven in several different settings, family, maybe at work when it's close, maybe in the community when it's close.
正如我之前提到的，我相信，对于人格障碍，这是一种更狭窄的行为模式，因此在几种不同的环境中，它更受模式驱动，家庭，也许在工作中，当它很接近时，也许在社区中，当它很接近时。
So these are recognizable patterns, as recognizable as alcoholism and addiction once people learn.
因此，这些都是可识别的模式，就像人们一旦学会了酗酒和成瘾一样可以识别。
So that's the key.
这就是关键。
Give yourself some time.
给自己一些时间。
See if this stuff comes to the surface.
看看这些东西是否浮出水面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think you're raising a really interesting point, which is that although nowadays we have more information about people available to us by way of the Internet and social media, you made the comparison with our grandparents' era.
我认为你提出了一个非常有趣的观点，那就是，尽管现在我们可以通过互联网和社交媒体获得更多有关人们的信息，但你却将其与我们的祖父母时代进行了比较。
I'm 49 years old, so my grandparents knew each other from the time they were in the eighth grade.
我今年 49 岁，所以我的祖父母从八年级的时候就认识了。
They eloped when they turned 18.
他们在18岁时私奔了。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Boom.
繁荣。
Went and got married, I think to the dismay of one side or the other side of the parents, but then were married more than 50 years.
结婚了，我想这让一方或另一方的父母感到沮丧，但那时我们已经结婚50多年了。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And grandkids, obviously, I'm one of them, et cetera.
显然，我是孙子们之一，等等。
And so you have these stories, and we love these kinds of stories.
所以你有这些故事，我们喜欢这些故事。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But as you point out, they knew each other very, very well and had for a long time.
但正如你所指出的，他们彼此非常非常了解，而且已经认识很长时间了。
Nowadays, one can, quote, unquote, "do their research," go online and look for things.
如今，人们可以引用、取消引用、“做研究”、上网寻找东西。
But would you argue that that's not complete information?
但您会认为这不是完整的信息吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
I think it can be helpful.
我认为这会有所帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
I tell people, Google your partner and find out if there's some history there that may impact you.
我告诉人们，谷歌一下你的伴侣，看看那里是否有一些可能影响你的历史。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
But don't believe that's sufficient.
但不要相信这就足够了。
What I say that you really want to talk to is relatives and friends of this person, and what you really want to do is see them in action with their relatives and friends.
我说你真正想交谈的是这个人的亲友，你真正想做的是看到他和他的亲友一起行动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So relatives and friends.
所以亲戚朋友。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes, because that's close relationships.
是的，因为那是亲密的关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
That's the key.
这就是关键。
This is all about close relationships.
这都是关于亲密关系的。
And that's what catches people by surprise.
这就是让人们感到惊讶的地方。
They say, "This person looks good at work." Some people have worked together for 10 years, and maybe they were in other relationships and they both got divorced, commiserated with each other, and get together, and it's like, "We've known each other for 10 years.
他们说：“这个人工作起来看起来不错。”有些人在一起工作了10年，也许他们处于其他关系中，然后他们都离婚了，互相同情，然后走到了一起，就像“我们认识了10年。
We're going to have a great relationship." And they find out this is like a stranger almost, because it's a close relationship now, and that's the difference.
我们将会建立良好的关系。”他们发现这几乎就像一个陌生人，因为现在是一种亲密的关系，这就是区别。
How people behave in a close relationship often triggers personality disordered stuff, fear of abandonment, fear of looking inferior, fear of being dominated, fear of not getting enough attention.
人们在亲密关系中的行为方式常常会引发人格障碍，害怕被遗弃，害怕看起来自卑，害怕被支配，害怕得不到足够的关注。
The personality disorders seem to have excessive fears in these areas.
人格障碍者似乎在这些方面有过度的恐惧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it fair to say that if somebody has a lot of stable friendships over long periods of time, that that's a good indication that they can maintain close relationships?
可以公平地说，如果一个人在很长一段时间内拥有很多稳定的友谊，那就很好地表明他们可以保持亲密的关系吗？
But it seems to me you'd also want to know, what is a close friend to that person?
但在我看来，你似乎也想知道，那个人的密友是什么？
Do they actually spend time with them?
他们真的花时间和他们在一起吗？
And likewise with coworkers, because some work environments that I've been in are necessarily very non-personal.
与同事也是如此，因为我所处的一些工作环境必然是非常非个人化的。
You don't share much.
你分享的不多。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Whereas other environments, like I know the partners of everyone I work with now at the podcast, that wasn't true for my academic colleagues.
而在其他环境中，比如我认识现在在播客中与我一起工作的每个人的合作伙伴，但对我的学术同事来说却并非如此。
I knew some of my academic colleagues' families.
我认识一些学术同事的家人。
I would have dinner with them, et cetera.
我会和他们一起吃晚饭等等。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But some of them less so.
但其中一些则不然。
So context matters a lot.
所以背景很重要。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And you mentioned the word stability, and that's really a key.
你提到了稳定性这个词，这确实是一个关键。
So if they have close friends they've had for 10, 20, 30 years, that's a really good sign.
因此，如果他们有 10 年、20 年、30 年的亲密朋友，那真是一个好兆头。
Bad signs are, "I don't want you talking to my family.
不好的迹象是，“我不想让你和我的家人说话。
They're evil people.
他们是邪恶的人。
They'll say terrible things about me.
他们会说我的坏话。
You can't trust them.
你不能相信他们。
They'll turn on you.
他们会攻击你。
They'll hate you," all this stuff.
他们会恨你，”所有这些东西。
"I can't even let you know who my family is and what their emails and phone numbers are."
“我什至不能让你知道我的家人是谁以及他们的电子邮件和电话号码是什么。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, goodness.
哦，天哪。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
That's a warning sign.
这是一个警告信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Definite warning sign.
明确的警告标志。
Because everyone has conflict with family members at some level.
因为每个人都会在某种程度上与家人发生冲突。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you would hope that one would feel comfortable allowing you to interact with their family.
但您会希望某人能够放心地允许您与他们的家人互动。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And if your family's really difficult, introduce your partner to your family and let them see, "This is a difficult family, and this is why I had to distance from them." Because a lot of people, to be healthy, do have to get some more distance.
如果你的家庭真的很困难，请将你的伴侣介绍给你的家人，让他们看到，“这是一个困难的家庭，这就是为什么我不得不与他们保持距离。”因为很多人为了健康，确实必须保持更远的距离。
But it's the secretiveness, just secrets in general are not a good thing for relationships.
但这是秘密，一般而言，秘密对于人际关系来说并不是一件好事。
That's the biggest piece that's missing, in a way, compared to 50 years ago, when people knew.
在某种程度上，与 50 年前人们知道的时候相比，这是缺失的最大部分。
It was hard to have family secrets 50 years ago.
50年前，拥有家庭秘密是很困难的。
Now, even though people may be all over the internet, you might not really know their secrets, and that's what you need to find out.
现在，尽管人们可能遍布互联网，但您可能并不真正知道他们的秘密，而这正是您需要找出的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about advocates?
拥护者呢？
So, I'm familiar with some high-conflict individuals.
所以，我对一些高度冲突的人很熟悉。
Some are more of the combative type, others are more of the, what did you call it, sort of a quiet, manipulative, victim-playing type.
有些人比较好斗，有些人则比较安静，喜欢操纵别人，扮演受害者。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And both seem to be pretty good at generating advocates.
两者似乎都非常擅长吸引拥护者。
I guess you called these negative advocates.
我猜你称这些为消极倡导者。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People that will fight for them.
将为他们而战的人。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By the way, this is all sounding a lot like modern politics.
顺便说一句，这听起来很像现代政治。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And maybe we'll get into that a little bit, because it is an important reflection on what we're talking about.
也许我们会稍微讨论一下，因为它是对我们正在讨论的内容的重要反思。
But what about these negative advocates?
但这些消极倡导者又如何呢？
If somebody has a lot of friends or advocates that are on their side, that are also in a blame mode.
如果某人有很多朋友或支持者站在他们一边，他们也会处于指责模式。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that a red flag?
这是一个危险信号吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
What's interesting, and I'd like to someday learn more of the neuroscience behind this, but high-conflict people have heightened emotions.
有趣的是，我希望有一天能了解更多这背后的神经科学，但高度冲突的人会情绪高涨。
The Cluster B personality disorders are known as dramatic, emotional, and erratic.
B 类人格障碍被称为戏剧性、情绪化和不稳定。
The "DSM-5 TR" says that, the manual for mental health professionals.
“DSM-5 TR”是这样说的，这是一本针对心理健康专业人员的手册。
And so their heightened emotions are contagious.
因此，他们高涨的情绪具有感染力。
And in general, what I've learned about this work a lot is emotions are contagious, and high-conflict emotions are highly contagious.
总的来说，我从这项工作中学到的很多东西是情绪是具有传染性的，高度冲突的情绪具有很强的传染性。
So what happens, and I see this so much as a lawyer and with other lawyers and with therapists, is the high-conflict person comes into your office and says, "I've been terribly treated by," let's say my ex, man or woman, because it happens to both, "been terribly treated, and you've got to save me.
那么，作为一名律师、其他律师和治疗师，我经常看到这样的情况：高度冲突的人走进你的办公室，说：“我受到了可怕的对待，”比方说我的前任，无论是男人还是女人，因为这种情况发生在两人身上，“受到了可怕的对待，你必须拯救我。
You've got to protect me.
你必须保护我。
You've got to win." Sometimes they say, "You have to destroy the other party." That's always a warning sign, when their goal is to destroy the other party.
你必须赢。”有时他们会说，“你必须摧毁对方。”当他们的目标是摧毁对方时，这始终是一个警告信号。
It's not a good sign.
这不是一个好兆头。
But they're so emotional, you say, "My goodness, this person's been through so much." Now I have the emotions.
但他们太情绪化了，你会说：“天哪，这个人经历了这么多。”现在我有了情绪。
And what I teach in my seminars is I understand it has a lot to do with the amygdala, that the amygdala catches the intense fear or tense anger, that those are heightened.
我在研讨会上教授的内容是，我知道这与杏仁核有很大关系，杏仁核捕捉到强烈的恐惧或紧张的愤怒，这些都会加剧。
And so now mine's going, "Oh, Bill, you've got to do something." My body wants me to take action, and I want to save this person from their evil co-parent, for example.
所以现在我的想法是：“哦，比尔，你必须做点什么。”例如，我的身体希望我采取行动，我想将这个人从他们邪恶的共同父母手中拯救出来。
And so what we see with negative advocates is they're emotionally hooked but uninformed.
因此，我们在消极倡导者中看到的是，他们在情感上着迷，但无知。
They don't really know what's going on.
他们真的不知道发生了什么事。
And I'll give you an example.
我给你举个例子。
A court case with a high-conflict person, brought their whole family.
一场与高度冲突者的法庭案件，带来了他们的全家。
And I had a case with false allegations, terrible allegations.
我的案件有虚假指控，可怕的指控。
My client happened to be the father.
我的客户恰好是父亲。
The mother was making false allegations of child sexual abuse.
这位母亲对儿童性虐待提出了虚假指控。
And I've had all types of true cases, false cases, so this is a real problem, a real issue, but there also were false allegations.
我遇到过各种类型的真实案件、虚假案件，所以这是一个真正的问题，一个真正的问题，但也有虚假指控。
In this case, that's what was happening.
在这种情况下，这就是正在发生的事情。
So the mother brings her whole family, and the judge realizes what's going on in the case because of the evidence presented, and sanctions the mother for knowingly false allegations.
因此，母亲带着她的全家，法官根据所提供的证据了解了案件的情况，并以故意虚假指控为由对母亲进行制裁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What does that equate to in the legal system?
这在法律体系中相当于什么？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
So my client, the father, spent about $40,000 getting a psychological evaluation, having a trial, doing all of this, attorney's fees.
所以我的委托人，也就是父亲，花费了大约 40,000 美元进行心理评估，进行审判，完成所有这些工作，还有律师费。
And so the court Made her pay $10,000 of his attorney's fees-
于是法庭让她支付10,000美元的律师费——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see
我明白了
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
...
...
and costs.
和成本。
So that's what the sanction is.
这就是制裁的内容。
And there's a code section that said knowingly false allegations of child abuse are a basis to make one party pay the other party's fees.
还有一个代码部分表示，故意虚假指控虐待儿童是让一方支付另一方费用的基础。
So she's ordered to pay.
所以她被命令付款。
She never paid it, by the way.
顺便说一句，她从未付过钱。
And she owned no property.
而且她没有财产。
We weren't able to get it because she had property in other people's names.
我们没能拿到，因为她的财产是在别人名下的。
But the idea was that she brought her whole family there.
但她的想法是把她的全家带到那里。
She brought her mother, mother's boyfriend.
她带来了她的母亲，母亲的男朋友。
She brought her roommate, who was a psychology grad student, who was encouraging her, "Oh, your daughter's being abused.
她带来了她的室友，一位心理学研究生，室友正在鼓励她，“哦，你女儿被虐待了。
You've got to do something." These were all negative advocates.
你必须做点什么。”这些都是消极的倡导者。
And when the judge made her ruling and spelled out the information, that was very clear.
当法官作出裁决并阐明信息时，情况就非常清楚了。
We caught the mother lying.
我们发现母亲撒谎了。
She persuaded other people to lie for her.
她说服其他人为她撒谎。
We caught them in lies.
我们用谎言抓住了他们。
So it was a really surprisingly open case.
所以这是一个非常令人惊讶的悬而未决的案件。
And the family started yelling at the judge and said, "This is a crime, and this is a shame," and blah, blah, blah.
家人开始对法官大喊大叫，说：“这是犯罪，这是耻辱”，等等等等。
The judge said, "You take yourselves out of here immediately, or I will have the bailiffs take you out." And they stood up and left and shouted, "This is an abomination," or something like that.
法官说：“你们赶紧离开这里，不然我就让法警把你们带出去。”他们站起来离开并大喊：“这是可憎的”，或者类似的话。
These were the negative advocates.
这些都是消极的倡导者。
They didn't know what the full picture was.
他们不知道完整的画面是什么。
They believed their family member, who was a skilled liar.
他们相信了他们的家人，而他们的家人是一个熟练的骗子。
I believe, and this is very interesting, I got to talk to her therapist, a therapist she had.
我相信，这非常有趣，我必须和她的治疗师，她的治疗师交谈。
I was released to talk to her.
我被释放去和她说话。
And the therapist, it was in the open, was she has borderline personality disorder, and that was an open thing.
治疗师，这是公开的，她患有边缘性人格障碍，这是一个公开的事情。
And the therapist said, "And there's something else." And I said, "Antisocial personality disorder?" And she said, "I can't say, but I wouldn't disagree with you."
治疗师说：“还有别的事情。”我说：“反社会人格障碍？”她说：“我不能说，但我不会不同意你的观点。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is effectively a yes.
这实际上是肯定的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
And with antisocial, that's where you get a lot of lying and stuff like that.
对于反社会的人来说，这就是你会撒很多谎之类的地方。
It's a rare case, but since I have the social work background, and I've had many true cases of child sexual abuse, especially as a therapist, I can see the difference, whereas a lot of lawyers don't know what to look for.
这是一个罕见的案例，但由于我有社会工作背景，而且我有很多儿童性虐待的真实案例，特别是作为一名治疗师，我可以看到其中的区别，而很多律师不知道该寻找什么。
But this was an exceptional case, antisocial and borderline personality disorder.
但这是一个特例，反社会和边缘性人格障碍。
She had a lot of traits.
她有很多特质。
And at first, the judge was very critical of my client and us, and he would have supervised contact.
起初，法官对我的当事人和我们非常批评，他会监督联系。
But the supervisor said, this is fascinating, when the child would be exchanged, the girl would walk tentatively towards the father.
但主管说，这很有趣，当孩子要交换时，女孩会试探性地走向父亲。
The mother dropped her and left.
母亲丢下她就走了。
Supervisor brought her to the father.
主管带她去见父亲。
She was tentative.
她有些犹豫。
She'd see the father, and she'd look.
她会见到父亲，她会看。
The mother's out of sight.
妈妈已经看不见了
She'd jump on him, laugh, and have a wonderful time.
她会跳到他身上，大笑，度过一段美好的时光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do have one question.
我确实有一个问题。
It's not a litmus test question, but do you recall from the particular case you were just describing, whether the relationship had started very quickly?
这不是一个试金石问题，但你还记得你刚才描述的具体案例吗，你们的关系是否开始得很快？
Had they moved in together quickly?
他们是不是很快就搬到了一起？
Excuse me.
打扰一下。
Had they decided to have children together quickly, married quickly?
他们是否决定尽快生孩子、尽快结婚？
In other words, was your client oblivious because of the rate at which he were moving?
换句话说，您的客户是否因为移动速度而忘记了？
And the analogy that comes to mind is, if you're moving very fast, it's hard to read the road signs.
我想到的类比是，如果你开得很快，就很难看清路标。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
I think he did.
我想他做到了。
And what's interesting is they got together when they were quite young.
有趣的是，他们在很小的时候就在一起了。
I think maybe she was 18, he was 20, something like that.
我想也许她18岁，他20岁之类的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's pretty young by today's standards.
以今天的标准来看，这还相当年轻。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And so excitement, new, all of that.
如此令人兴奋、新鲜，所有这一切。
I'm pretty sure they did.
我很确定他们做到了。
And what's interesting is they had gotten divorced, that the issue I described was an after-divorce custody issue.
有趣的是他们已经离婚了，我描述的问题是离婚后监护权问题。
But they had gotten divorced maybe four or five years into their marriage, and she assaulted him, and he had the scars and all of this.
但他们结婚大概四五年后就离婚了，她袭击了他，他身上留下了伤疤等等。
So he had actually custody of this girl, who was eight years old when the story I just told you happened, which is also helpful because she was verbal.
所以他实际上拥有这个女孩的监护权，当我刚才告诉你的故事发生时，她八岁，这也很有帮助，因为她是口头的。
She could describe.
她可以描述。
She actually described how her mother coerced her to say things that weren't true.
她实际上描述了她母亲如何强迫她说出不真实的话。
But yeah.
但是是的。
So they got together young, I think quick, then they got divorced, but the patterns continued.
所以他们年轻时就在一起了，我想很快，然后他们离婚了，但这种模式仍在继续。
And that's one thing we see.
这是我们看到的一件事。
A lot of high-conflict divorces keep going even after the divorce.
许多高度冲突的离婚即使在离婚后仍继续存在。
The actual divorce date is like a speed bump in the lifetime of high conflict if they have children together.
如果他们有孩子的话，实际的离婚日期就像是一生中高度冲突的减速带。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hence the wait to have children with somebody-
因此，等待与某人生孩子——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if possible.
如果可能的话。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You asked about emotional contagion, and you-
你问到情绪传染的问题，而你——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
made reference to the science.
参考了科学。
If I may, I'll just share something that might be of interest-
如果可以的话，我会分享一些可能感兴趣的东西-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
I will
我会
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to you and to the listeners.
给你和听众。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Love to hear it.
喜欢听。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're certainly right that the amygdala is a central hub for threat detection.
你说的没错，杏仁核是威胁检测的中心枢纽。
What a lot of people don't know, because it's just not discussed enough in the popular coverage of neuroscience, is that the amygdala can learn in the sense that it's highly prone to context-dependent plasticity.
很多人不知道的是，杏仁核可以学习，因为它在神经科学的流行报道中没有得到足够的讨论，因为它非常容易产生依赖于环境的可塑性。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this idea that getting emotionally charged is either negative valence, like fear, or positive valence, like, "Oh, I like that," that's true to an extent.
因此，情绪激动的想法要么是负价，比如恐惧，要么是正价，比如“哦，我喜欢那个”，这在某种程度上是正确的。
But over time, the brain changes to, in some cases, like the feeling of adrenaline to-
但随着时间的推移，在某些情况下，大脑会发生变化，就像肾上腺素的感觉一样——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
get an associated dopamine release with that.
与此相关的多巴胺释放。
But a really interesting set of brain structures that aren't discussed enough, I'll just mention because you asked about neuroscience.
但是一组非常有趣的大脑结构尚未得到足够的讨论，我只是提一下，因为你问到了神经科学。
I had a postdoc in my laboratory by the name of Hee Kyong Jung, a fantastic postdoc, who was looking at emotional contagion.
我的实验室里有一位博士后，名叫 Hee Kyong Jung，他是一位出色的博士后，正在研究情绪传染。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We were interested in human subjects, but these were animal studies.
我们对人类受试者感兴趣，但这些是动物研究。
A member of a species is observed and then mimicked by another member of the species.
一个物种的成员被观察，然后被该物种的另一个成员模仿。
A very powerful aspect-
一个非常强大的方面——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to human and non-human behavior.
对人类和非人类的行为。
And there's a structure in the brain called the claustrum, most people don't know about it, which seems to be critical for this.
大脑中有一个叫做屏状核的结构，大多数人都不知道它，但它似乎对此至关重要。
And she did a beautiful set of experiments of showing that when animals observed other animals, either in a positive or a fear state, but in this case a fear state, or a threatened state, their own claustrum to anterior cingulate cortex circuitry, and of course, amygdala, et cetera, those would light up as if they were in the experience, but not to the same degree.
她做了一系列精彩的实验，表明当动物观察其他动物时，无论是处于积极状态还是处于恐惧状态，但在这种情况下是恐惧状态或受到威胁状态，它们自己的屏状核到前扣带皮层电路，当然还有杏仁核等，这些都会像它们在经历中一样亮起来，但程度不同。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But over time, what one could see was a kind of heightening, a plasticity of these circuits, so that smaller threats started to create larger internal responses.
但随着时间的推移，人们可以看到这些回路的一种增强和可塑性，因此较小的威胁开始产生更大的内部反应。
That's both combining Heekyoung's work and other work that's come out since.
这既结合了 Heekyoung 的作品，又结合了此后发表的其他作品。
So, what it says is that our brains are very tuned to the emotional states of others.
所以，它说的是我们的大脑非常适应他人的情绪状态。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is good.
这很好。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Empathy, for instance.
例如，同理心。
But that over time our brains change to actually require a lower stimulus to activate that kind of negative advocate part of ourselves.
但随着时间的推移，我们的大脑实际上需要较低的刺激来激活我们体内那种消极倡导的部分。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so perhaps this is a good segue into a discussion about what we're observing societally now, not just in terms of politics.
因此，也许这是一个很好的话题，讨论我们现在在社会上观察到的情况，而不仅仅是政治方面。
But it's one thing to be recruited to a camp, but then once you're in the camp, it turns out, if we think about it through the lens of this work, it seems that it requires less negative stuff in order to stay in that camp, but want to fight more and more stridently in order to protect a cause.
但被招募到一个阵营是一回事，但一旦你进入了阵营，事实证明，如果我们从这部作品的角度来思考，似乎需要更少的负面东西才能留在那个阵营，但为了保护一项事业，你需要越来越坚决地战斗。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
I think exactly, and as I mention in my book about bullies, I think polarization really demonstrates that.
我确实认为，正如我在关于欺凌者的书中提到的那样，我认为两极分化确实证明了这一点。
So once you're in your group and you see the other group as not only having a different point of view, but as the enemy, then your brain doesn't need to work on it anymore.
因此，一旦你在自己的团队中，并且你看到另一个团队不仅有不同的观点，而且是敌人，那么你的大脑就不需要再为此工作了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
That's case closed.
案件就此结案。
They're the enemy.
他们是敌人。
The only question is what do we do now?
唯一的问题是我们现在做什么？
And the research saying that when you talk to the people in your group, rather than coming together, you move farther apart.
研究表明，当你与团队中的人交谈时，你们不但没有走到一起，反而疏远了。
And to me, what's fascinating in terms of legal cases, and especially in family law, is you have, like the family I described, you have the family talking to each other, you pull a lawyer into that, the lawyer talks to them, the lawyer gets heightened anger maybe, or commitment to save this person.
对我来说，就法律案件而言，特别是在家庭法方面，最吸引人的是，就像我所描述的家庭一样，你让家人互相交谈，你把律师拉进去，律师与他们交谈，律师可能会变得更加愤怒，或者承诺拯救这个人。
And maybe you get a therapist into the picture, and they all just talk to themselves.
也许你让一位治疗师参与其中，他们都只是自言自语。
They pull farther and farther apart.
他们的距离越来越远。
And that's often when we have our high-conflict court cases.
这通常是我们遇到高度冲突的法庭案件的时候。
They come back to court every six to 12 months, sometimes for years.
他们每六到十二个月就回到法庭一次，有时长达数年。
I have cases where people have been in court every year for eight or nine years.
我有一些案件，人们每年都会上法庭，八九年了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And these are cases where the divorce was done long ago.
这些都是很久以前离婚的案例。
What people don't realize is the worst custody disputes tend to happen after the divorce is over, and I think it's because people are spending more and more time talking to their own team, to their own group, and that pulls them farther apart.
人们没有意识到，最严重的监护权纠纷往往发生在离婚结束后，我认为这是因为人们花越来越多的时间与自己的团队、自己的群体交谈，这使他们的距离越来越远。
Their view of the other side is worse and worse and worse.
他们对对方的看法越来越糟糕。
And that's why I think the structure really matters.
这就是为什么我认为结构非常重要。
So I think politically we have these two different universes that don't necessarily talk to each other, and they really create a sense of community.
所以我认为在政治上我们有这两个不同的宇宙，它们不一定互相对话，但它们确实创造了一种社区意识。
People are looking for community and they find it, but it's fed by, I think, the media ecosystem.
人们正在寻找社区并且他们找到了它，但我认为它是由媒体生态系统提供的。
Everyone has their own media.
每个人都有自己的媒体。
And so we have these two universes talking to themselves, growing farther and farther apart.
因此，我们看到这两个宇宙在自言自语，彼此之间的距离越来越远。
And that's why elections don't seem to have made a difference in any of this, because elections kind of decides who does government, but they don't resolve the adversarial communities.
这就是为什么选举似乎在这方面没有产生任何影响，因为选举决定了谁来管理政府，但它们并没有解决敌对社区的问题。
And they get a lot of attention.
他们得到了很多关注。
And sad to say, I think our culture has shifted from government, that politics as about government and the details and nitty-gritty and the values of government are what's good for our group, good for our country, unity, citizenship, we should be together in this, that politics have shifted to entertainment.
可悲的是，我认为我们的文化已经从政府转向政治，关于政府的政治以及政府的细节、实质和价值观对我们的群体、对我们的国家、团结、公民有好处，我们应该在一起，政治已经转向娱乐。
The values of entertainment are be extreme, be emotional.
娱乐的价值观是极端的、情感化的。
And entertainment's driven by drama for thousands of years.
几千年来，娱乐活动都是由戏剧驱动的。
And drama is opposing us against them.
戏剧正在让我们反对他们。
And as I mentioned in the bullies book, there's a terrible crisis, there's an evil villain, and there's a superhero, and if you have someone tell that story to their community, they will love that person.
正如我在恶霸书中提到的，有一场可怕的危机，有一个邪恶的恶棍，还有一个超级英雄，如果你有人向他们的社区讲述这个故事，他们会喜欢那个人。
So now we have two communities in politics loving themselves and hating the other, and the elections don't resolve that.
所以现在我们在政治上有两个群体彼此相爱、彼此憎恨，而选举并不能解决这个问题。
That's a speed bump on the road to high conflict.
这是通往高度冲突的道路上的一个减速带。
And that's not a good sign, and we have to find ways to bridge the gaps.
这不是一个好兆头，我们必须找到弥补差距的方法。
And there are ways.
并且有办法。
You get people one-to-one, talk to each other.
你让人们一对一地交谈。
There's a lot of groups trying to say, "Let's connect rather than separate." And if we get too far out of balance, we're going to have bigger and bigger high-conflict problems.
有很多团体试图说：“让我们联系而不是分裂。”如果我们失去平衡太远，我们就会遇到越来越大的高冲突问题。
So the more people's eyes are open to this pattern, the more they can say, "Hey, I seem to be part of this group, but my neighbors think differently.
因此，人们对这种模式的认识越多，他们就越能说：“嘿，我似乎是这个群体的一部分，但我的邻居有不同的想法。
I'm going to listen to them." It's listening that's missing.
我要听他们的。”缺少的是倾听。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我最近成为了 Function 成员。
While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.
虽然我长期以来一直热衷于血液检测，但我真的很想找到一个更深入的程序来分析血液、尿液和唾液，以全面了解我的心脏健康状况、我的激素状态、我的免疫系统调节、我的代谢功能、我的维生素和矿物质状态以及我整体健康和活力的其他关键领域。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors on your results.
Function 不仅提供对身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标志物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生对结果的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had too high levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量过高。
This was totally surprising to me.
这让我完全惊讶。
I had no idea prior to taking the test.
参加考试之前我不知道。
Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor-informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, because I had been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification, and worked to reduce my mercury levels.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还为我提供了关于如何最好地降低汞含量的医生知情见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，因为我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力吃更多的绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒，并努力降低我的汞含量。
Comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health, and while I've been doing it for years, I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive.
像这样的综合实验室测试对健康非常重要，虽然我已经这样做了很多年，但我总是发现它过于复杂和昂贵。
I've been so impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use, that is getting the test done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are, that I recently joined their advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
Function 给我留下了深刻的印象，无论是在易用性方面，还是在完成测试方面，以及测试的全面性和可操作性方面，我最近加入了他们的顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Lab listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman Lab 听众提供早期访问机会。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Today's episode is also brought to us by David.
今天的节目也是大卫给我们带来的。
David makes a protein bar unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein.
没错，28克蛋白质，其75%的热量都来自于蛋白质。
This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar.
这比第二接近的蛋白质棒高出 50%。
These bars from David also taste incredible.
大卫的这些巧克力棒味道也令人难以置信。
My favorite bar is the cake-flavored one, but then again, I also like the chocolate-flavored one, and I like the berry-flavored one.
我最喜欢的巧克力棒是蛋糕味的，但话又说回来，我也喜欢巧克力味的，而且我喜欢浆果味的。
Basically, I like all the flavors.
基本上所有的口味我都喜欢。
They're all incredibly delicious.
它们都非常美味。
Now, for me personally, I try to get most of my calories from whole foods.
现在，就我个人而言，我尝试从天然食品中获取大部分卡路里。
However, when I'm in a rush or I'm away from home or I'm just looking for a quick afternoon snack, I often find that I'm looking for a high-quality protein source.
然而，当我很赶时间或者我不在家或者我只是想吃点下午茶时，我经常发现我正在寻找高质量的蛋白质来源。
And with David, I'm able to get 28 grams of high-quality protein with the calories of a snack, which makes it very easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight, and it allows me to do so without taking on an excess of calories.
有了 David，我就能用一份零食的热量获得 28 克优质蛋白质，这使得我很容易达到每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，而且我可以在不摄入过多热量的情况下实现这一目标。
As I mentioned before, they are incredibly delicious.
正如我之前提到的，它们非常美味。
In fact, they're surprisingly delicious.
事实上，它们出奇的美味。
Even the consistency is great.
即使一致性也很棒。
It's more like a cookie consistency, kind of a chewy cookie consistency, which is unlike other bars, which I tend to kind of saturate on.
它更像是饼干的稠度，有点耐嚼的饼干稠度，这与我倾向于饱和的其他巧克力棒不同。
I was never a big fan of bars until I discovered David bars.
在我发现大卫酒吧之前，我从来都不是酒吧的忠实粉丝。
If you give them a try, you'll know what I mean.
如果你尝试一下，你就会明白我的意思。
So if you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
因此，如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Again, the link is davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，链接是 david Protein.com/huberman。
On the suggestion of my friend and former guest on this podcast, two-time guest, Rick Rubin, I started watching a documentary about the history of professional wrestling, which everyone agrees is made up.
在我的朋友、这个播客的前嘉宾、两次嘉宾里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）的建议下，我开始观看一部关于职业摔跤历史的纪录片，每个人都认为这是编造的。
So let's just acknowledge that.
所以让我们承认这一点。
I recognize that.
我承认这一点。
But it's a remarkable portal into some of the things that you're talking about because it all hinges on being able to create emotional responses in the crowd.
但这是了解您正在谈论的某些事情的非凡门户，因为这一切都取决于能否在人群中产生情感反应。
And just a very brief history of it, as I understand, and I'm by no means an expert, but I took notes on this documentary as I do take notes on most everything.
据我了解，这只是一个非常简短的历史，而且我绝不是专家，但我在这部纪录片上做了笔记，就像我在大多数事情上做笔记一样。
They used to have good guys and bad guys, good gals and bad gals.
他们曾经有好人也有坏人，有好女孩也有坏女孩。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's men and women's wrestling.
因为这是男女摔跤比赛。
Typically not against each other, although sometimes.
尽管有时，但通常不会互相对抗。
In any case, there was a transition that occurred at some point where they couldn't get more excitement and literally couldn't get more attention to the sport by having good guys and bad guys, good gals and bad gals.
无论如何，在某个时刻发生了一个转变，他们无法获得更多的兴奋，也无法通过好人和坏人、好女孩和坏女孩来获得更多对这项运动的关注。
So what they ended up doing was making everybody bad, and the ratings just skyrocketed.
所以他们最终所做的就是让每个人都变坏，收视率飙升。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everybody bad, right?
大家都很坏吧？
The underlying premise being that both teams are cheating, and so therefore they had to behave poorly also.
基本前提是两队都作弊，因此他们也必须表现不佳。
And it created this whole era of just bad people doing bad things, generating even greater emotional responses.
它创造了整个坏人做坏事的时代，产生了更大的情绪反应。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this fits very much with the neuroscience of emotion.
这非常符合情感神经科学。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Emotions like awe, happiness, joy, meaning, pleasure.
诸如敬畏、幸福、喜悦、意义、快乐等情绪。
These are powerful emotions, and I will not say because there's no data to support the idea that fear, anger, being threatened, et cetera, are more powerful emotions, but they tend to drive more behavior to, in other words, people will do more.
这些都是强烈的情绪，我不会说，因为没有数据支持这样的观点，即恐惧、愤怒、受到威胁等是更强烈的情绪，但它们往往会驱动更多的行为，换句话说，人们会做更多的事情。
This is well known in the field of behavioral economics too.
这在行为经济学领域也是众所周知的。
People will do more to avoid losing something-
人们会采取更多措施来避免失去某些东西——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
than they will to gain something, sadly.
可悲的是，他们比他们想要获得的东西更愿意。
But this is how our species is wired for-
但这就是我们这个物种的构造方式——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
The negative
负面的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
evolutionary-
进化-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
meaningful reasons.
有意义的理由。
So the point being that I think societally and perhaps interpersonally, because the two things mimic each other at every level, individuals all the way up to culture, seem to be engaged in this increasingly amplified emotional states, and now it just seems like combat is the rule of the day.
所以重点是，我从社会角度，也许从人际角度思考，因为这两件事在各个层面上都互相模仿，个体一直到文化，似乎都处于这种日益放大的情绪状态中，而现在，战斗似乎已成为当今的规则。
And it's so sad, and you kind of have to wonder where it goes next.
这太悲伤了，你不得不想知道它接下来会走向何方。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it does seem like it rewards these high-conflict personalities-
但它似乎确实奖励了这些高度冲突的人物——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because they go undetected, right?
因为他们没有被发现，对吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So now the coworker who's super angry about something they saw on the news and is trying to engage people or something, or create an issue around something that like, is this really an issue?
那么现在，如果一位同事对他们在新闻中看到的某件事感到非常愤怒，并试图与人们或某事互动，或者围绕类似的事情制造一个问题，这真的是一个问题吗？
There's some real issues in the workplace and at school, but is this really an issue?
工作场所和学校确实存在一些问题，但这真的是一个问题吗？
That person 10 years ago, everyone would've been like, "This is a problem person," and would've backed away.
十年前的那个人，每个人都会说，“这是一个有问题的人”，然后就会退缩。
Now, because the mean has shifted-
现在，因为均值发生了变化——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think it's no longer signal above the noise.
我认为它不再是噪音之上的信号。
It's, as we say in science, within the noise.
正如我们在科学中所说，它位于噪音之中。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Well, what we're seeing is these kind of Media systems, I call them, are attracted to high-conflict personalities, and high-conflict personalities are attracted to attention.
嗯，我们看到的是这种媒体系统，我称之为，被高度冲突的人物所吸引，而高度冲突的人物又被关注。
They want attention.
他们想要关注。
So there's this almost marriage of media exposure and high-conflict personalities.
因此，媒体曝光和高度冲突的人物几乎是结合在一起的。
And so that's what pulls people together.
这就是将人们聚集在一起的原因。
I think everyone's looking for community these days, and it used to be around work, like a shared task, but now we do so much of our work alone or in tiny groups, and so you get a real sense of community.
我认为现在每个人都在寻找社区，它曾经围绕着工作，就像一个共同的任务，但现在我们独自或以小组的形式完成很多工作，所以你会得到真正的社区感。
People used to get it from church, or synagogue, or mosque, wherever, and that's weakened.
人们过去常常从教堂、犹太教堂或清真寺等任何地方获得它，但现在这种情况已经被削弱了。
And so we get that now a lot, the intense emotional community from politics.
所以我们现在经常从政治中得到强烈的情感社区。
And so there's a community for you, and there's a community for you.
因此，这里有一个适合您的社区，也有一个适合您的社区。
So they pull themselves together.
所以他们团结起来。
They get that, I don't know, dopamine hit or whatever it is, and strengthens them.
我不知道，他们得到了多巴胺或其他什么东西，并增强了他们的力量。
So what's happening is we're pulling apart, but to me, the answer is exposing the patterns and understanding our brains, is recognize what's happening.
所以我们正在分道扬镳，但对我来说，答案是揭露模式并理解我们的大脑，认识到正在发生的事情。
This person's probably exaggerating when they say that those people are evil.
这个人说那些人是邪恶的，大概是夸张了。
This person's probably exaggerating when they say those people are stupid.
这个人说那些人愚蠢的话可能是夸张了。
Whatever it is that we have to realize, okay, don't buy that completely.
不管是什么，我们必须意识到，好吧，不要完全相信这一点。
And what's fascinating to me, I don't know how it happened, but I get text message solicitations to contribute to campaigns from conservatives and liberals.
让我着迷的是，我不知道这是怎么发生的，但我收到了保守派和自由派的短信邀请，为竞选活动做出贡献。
I get both.
我两者都得到。
And guess what?
你猜怎么着？
They look like each other, and they're like, "The end of the world is coming.
他们看起来很像，他们就像是，“世界末日即将到来。
You've got to give $10 or $100 to save the world.
你必须捐出 10 美元或 100 美元才能拯救世界。
And the end of the world's coming because of them."
世界末日因为他们而到来。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's all fear-based.
这一切都是基于恐惧。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And it's fear-based, but it hooks your emotions.
它是基于恐惧的，但它会吸引你的情绪。
I know this stuff, so I can go, okay, swipe away.
我知道这些东西，所以我可以走，好吧，刷卡走开。
But a lot of people don't know that this is happening.
但很多人并不知道这一切正在发生。
They don't understand how emotions are contagious and how I think high-conflict emotions are more contagious.
他们不明白情绪如何具有传染性，也不明白我认为高度冲突的情绪为何更具传染性。
So to me, it's educating people about these dynamics so you don't engage so much with them.
所以对我来说，这是对人们进行有关这些动态的教育，这样你就不会与他们有太多的接触。
I won't watch more than a half an hour of TV news, but you could have 24/7 TV news.
我不会看超过半小时的电视新闻，但你可以观看 24/7 的电视新闻。
And since 1995, 1996, when they gave you licenses for radio and television that didn't have to tell the other side of the story.
自 1995 年、1996 年以来，他们给了你广播和电视的许可证，而不必讲述故事的另一面。
Before that, you used to have the Fairness Doctrine.
在此之前，你们曾经有过公平主义。
You have to say what the other side is.
你必须说出对方是什么。
You're for a candidate, you have to hear from the other side.
你是一名候选人，你必须听取对方的意见。
You didn't have to after 1995, '96.
1995年、96年之后你就不必这么做了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
So we had MSNBC and Fox News, slightly off-center, slightly conservative, slightly liberal.
所以我们有微软全国广播公司（MSNBC）和福克斯新闻频道（Fox News），有点偏离中心，有点保守，有点自由。
Well, now we've had 30 years of that, much farther apart, and communities around each of these.
好吧，现在我们已经经历了 30 年了，彼此之间的距离越来越远，并且围绕着这些都建立了社区。
And yet, if you go, okay, I'm probably hearing some exaggerations here, so I can check myself.
然而，如果你走了，好吧，我可能在这里听到了一些夸张的说法，所以我可以检查一下自己。
And this person's trying to be a hero and demonize those people.
这个人试图成为英雄并妖魔化那些人。
I'm not going to do that.
我不会那样做。
So I'm not one for government regulation.
所以我不是一个支持政府监管的人。
What I want is for everyone to be able to say, "Okay, I see what's happening.
我想要的是每个人都能说：“好吧，我明白发生了什么。
I'm not going to get my emotions hooked." And I think, to me, that's one of the goals, is for people to learn, I don't have to absorb the emotions.
我不会被自己的情绪所左右。”我认为，对我来说，这是目标之一，就是让人们学习，我不必吸收情感。
Because that's where the problem is.
因为这就是问题所在。
People are emotionally hooked and uninformed.
人们被情感所迷惑并且无知。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are some of the signs of a high-conflict personality?
高冲突性格有哪些迹象？
Because in an ideal world, we avoid these people.
因为在理想的世界中，我们会避开这些人。
And again, we're not trying to say that they're bad people.
再说一次，我们并不是想说他们是坏人。
Some of them are bad people, some of them aren't.
他们中有些人是坏人，有些则不是。
But since I'm not a clinical psychologist, you are, you can make the assessment certainly better than I can.
但由于我不是临床心理学家，而你是，你当然可以比我做出更好的评估。
What are some of the ways to avoid these circumstances besides the first-year rule?
除了第一年规则之外，还有哪些方法可以避免这些情况？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then let's talk about some ways to disentangle from these people-
然后我们来谈谈一些摆脱这些人的方法——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
based on their unique phenotypes.
基于它们独特的表型。
So is there a question or set of questions one should ask themselves when they are potentially dating someone, potentially becoming friends with somebody, potentially becoming coworkers with somebody, and so on?
那么，当人们可能与某人约会、可能与某人成为朋友、可能与某人成为同事等等时，是否应该问自己一个或一组问题？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
So what's interesting is often your gut feeling tells you something's up here.
所以有趣的是，你的直觉通常会告诉你有什么事情发生。
Like the person suddenly has a shocking opinion of somebody else, and they say, "That person's a total jerk." And yet you know that person, and they're not a total jerk.
就像这个人突然对其他人产生了令人震惊的看法，他们说：“那个人真是个混蛋。”然而你认识那个人，他们并不是一个十足的混蛋。
Suddenly, something's disproportionate.
突然间，有些事情变得不相称了。
I think disproportionate emotions is often a trigger.
我认为不成比例的情绪往往是一个触发因素。
I put in a lot of my books now what I call the WEB method, is pay attention to their Words, your Emotions, and their Behavior.
我现在在很多书中放入了我所说的WEB方法，就是关注他们的言语、你的情绪和他们的行为。
So starting with words, do they use a lot of blaming words?
那么从言语开始，他们是否使用了很多指责的话？
It's all that person's fault.
都是那个人的错。
Do they use all-or-nothing words?
他们使用“全有或全无”的词语吗？
They seem to see things through a narrow lens, that there's all good, there's all bad.
他们似乎通过狭隘的视角看待事物，有好有坏。
Unmanaged emotions, which they may or may not show, like I explained.
正如我所解释的，不受控制的情绪可能会或可能不会表现出来。
Some people are good at hiding all that, even though it drives them inside.
有些人善于隐藏这一切，尽管这驱使他们内心深处。
And the extreme behaviors, do they do things 90% of people would never do?
还有那些极端的行为，他们会做90%的人永远不会做的事情吗？
And I'll give an example here.
我在这里举一个例子。
And this is, I won't say the city, but there was a mayor.
我不会说这是一座城市，但这里有一位市长。
There was someone who was a congressperson And they decided to run for mayor in their city instead of flying to go to Congress.
有一个国会议员，他们决定竞选自己城市的市长，而不是坐飞机去国会。
But when they were flying to go to Congress back and forth, this is in California, I'll say that much.
但当他们飞来飞去国会时，这是在加利福尼亚州，我就说这么多。
People can easily research this.
人们可以很容易地研究这一点。
So this person flying back and forth, one day, one night, there was a line to get your bags at the airport after you got off the plane.
所以这个人飞来飞去，一天一夜，下了飞机机场就排着长队拿行李。
And he was told to wait in line to get his bags.
他被告知要排队领取行李。
And he said, "Don't you know who I am?" And he pushed his way to the front of the line and had an argument with the person behind the counter, said, "Don't you know who I am?
他说：“你不知道我是谁吗？”他挤到队伍前面，与柜台后面的人发生争执，说：“你不知道我是谁吗？
I want my bag right now." And she said, "We don't have it now.
我现在就想要我的包。”她说：“我们现在没有。
You can't have it right now." And he pushed her and knocked her over.
你现在不能拥有它。”他推了她，把她撞倒了。
He shoved this airline worker behind the counter and knocked her over.
他把这名航空公司工作人员推到柜台后面，并将她撞倒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This was a mayor of a major-
这是一个主要城市的市长——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Not yet.
还没有。
He wasn't mayor yet.
他还不是市长。
He was a congressperson.
他是一名国会议员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry.
抱歉。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Anyway, so that means he's-
无论如何，这意味着他——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry.
抱歉。
No, no knock.
不，不敲门。
I know some very decent congresspeople, but like, okay.
我认识一些非常正派的国会议员，但是，好吧。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
But so he's a-
但所以他是一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, in any case, right?
好吧，无论如何，对吧？
This person could be any number of different professions.
这个人可以从事多种不同的职业。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Could be, yes.
可能是，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, this is antisocial behavior.
是的，这是反社会行为。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
But this is a high profile person, so this is all over the news the next day.
但这是一个高调的人，所以第二天这件事就成了新闻。
This is 20 years ago, maybe 15 years ago, something like that.
这是 20 年前，也许是 15 年前，类似的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Goodness.
善良。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Anyway, so it's in the newspaper the next day.
无论如何，第二天报纸上就刊登了这件事。
A newspaper says, "Congressman so-and-so gets into physical altercation with airline worker, knocks her over." Half the people said, "That's terrible." And the other half the people said, "Wait, wait.
一份报纸称：“某某议员与航空公司工作人员发生肢体冲突，将她撞倒。”一半的人说：“这太可怕了。”另一半人说：“等等，等等。
He was sleep deprived.
他睡眠不足。
He was flying across country.
他正在飞越全国。
You have to understand that he was stressed." And here's where my web method comes in.
你必须明白他压力很大。”这就是我的网络方法的用武之地。
90% of people would not have done that even if they were sleep deprived, and I fly back and forth a lot, and I don't do that.
90%的人即使睡眠不足也不会这么做，而我经常飞来飞去，我也不会这么做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would like to think 99% of people wouldn't do that.
我想99%的人都不会这么做。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
I think you're right.
我认为你是对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
99%.
99%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To get physical with an airline person over a bag.
为了行李与航空公司工作人员发生肢体冲突。
The cutting to the front of the line is-
切到线的前面是-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is egregious.
是令人震惊的。
The shoving the airline person is like-
航空公司人员的推搡就像是——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
beyond the pale.
超出了苍白。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Exactly.
正是如此。
So anyway, so he's running for mayor, and I'm going, "This guy's a high conflict person.
所以无论如何，他正在竞选市长，我会说，“这个人是一个高度冲突的人。
If he gets elected, he's not going to be a very good mayor.
如果他当选，他不会是一个很好的市长。
He's going to have a lot of trouble with the people close to him." And so guess what happened?
他会和他身边的人发生很多麻烦。”那么猜猜发生了什么？
He gets elected.
他当选了。
Within, I think it's eight months, and this is before the Me Too movement got started, but people are reporting he's harassing women, sexually harassing women.
我认为已经有八个月了，这是在 Me Too 运动开始之前，但人们报告他骚扰女性，性骚扰女性。
Women come into his office to meet with him, professional, experienced, important, and he's like wanting to touch them a lot inappropriately.
女人来到他的办公室与他会面，专业、经验丰富、重要，而他就像想不恰当地触摸她们。
They don't want to be touched.
他们不想被碰触。
Anyway, so women start complaining about him.
不管怎样，所以女人开始抱怨他。
Word kind of gets out, yeah, this happened with a lot of different people, that he's not sexually assaulting them, but he's treating them badly.
有消息传出，是的，这种事发生在很多不同的人身上，他没有性侵犯他们，但他对待他们很糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it cuts across domains.
所以它跨越了领域。
It's like in-
这就像在-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so it's not just in the office.
所以这不仅仅是在办公室。
It's there, but it's also at the airport.
它在那里，但也在机场。
It's basically any time he's not getting what he wants-
基本上任何时候他都没有得到他想要的东西-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he throws a tantrum.
他发脾气。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And that's the thing with personality disorders, is a narrower range of behavior that's repeated in a variety of settings.
这就是人格障碍的问题，是在各种环境中重复出现的较小范围的行为。
So he's fitting all of that.
所以他适合这一切。
So which personality disorder?
那么属于哪种人格障碍呢？
I'm not going to diagnose him, but it narrows down to one or two.
我不会诊断他，但范围会缩小到一两个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's not context dependent.
所以它不依赖于上下文。
It is-
它是——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's pervasive.
它是普遍存在的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Pervasive, and that word is in the diagnostic manual, that it's pervasive across, I think, several settings.
普遍存在，这个词出现在诊断手册中，我认为它普遍存在于多种环境中。
I think that's the words.
我想就是这句话。
But let me just finish.
但让我说完。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, please.
是的，请。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
So because the end of the story is he's also got committees and people that are supposed to accomplish things.
因为故事的结局是他还有应该完成任务的委员会和人员。
He doesn't want them to think.
他不想让他们思考。
He wants to do the thinking and tell them what to do.
他想要思考并告诉他们该怎么做。
So he goes around alienating a lot of people.
所以他四处走动，疏远了很多人。
Within eight months, he's out of office because enough people were upset.
八个月内，他就下台了，因为有足够多的人感到不安。
And the way he got out of office is some of the heads of government told him, I think it was the city attorney or something, "If you quit now, we'll help you with your legal expenses," because he's starting to get sued for some of this stuff, suing the city, suing him.
他下台的方式是一些政府首脑告诉他，我认为是市检察官之类的，“如果你现在辞职，我们会帮你支付法律费用，”因为他开始因为这些事情被起诉，起诉市政府，起诉他。
"We'll help you with your legal expenses if you quit now." And there was starting to be a petition movement for some, I don't know the mechanics, like a special election or something to get rid of him.
“如果你现在辞职，我们将帮助你支付法律费用。”一些人开始发起请愿运动，我不知道具体机制，比如特别选举或除掉他的活动。
Anyway, within eight months, he was out of the office.
不管怎样，八个月之内，他就离开了办公室。
And now you don't hear about him in that city.
现在你在那个城市听不到他的消息了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a very interesting, literally high profile, although still anonymous based on this conversation, case.
这是一个非常有趣、非常引人注目的案例，尽管根据这次对话仍然是匿名的。
I wonder if on a more subtle or typical level, the following is informative or not.
我想知道以下内容是否在更微妙或典型的层面上提供了信息。
I'm not looking for a validation of the example I'm about to give.
我并不是在寻找对我即将给出的示例的验证。
But I've been very surprised at times how a person who I'm with for the first time out on a meal will behave towards the waitstaff.
但有时我很惊讶第一次和我一起出去吃饭的人对待服务员的态度。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not explicitly disparaging of them, but sometimes mildly disparaging of them.
没有明确地贬低他们，但有时温和地贬低他们。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or feeling as if the amount of liquid poured into their glass was somehow an indication of how the waiter felt about them or didn't feel about them.
或者感觉好像倒进杯子里的液体量在某种程度上表明了服务员对他们的感觉或不感觉。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Don't treat me that way.
别这样对待我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like reading into these things where you're just thinking to yourself like, "Whoa, life must be really tough for you." Like, who's paying attention to this stuff?
就像读到这些事情时，你只是在想，“哇，生活对你来说一定很艰难。”比如，谁在关注这些东西？
And so that's one that I've noticed in people, and it's proved informative.
这就是我在人们身上注意到的这一点，并且事实证明它提供了丰富的信息。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
It's really a useful thing to see.
这确实是一件很有用的事情。
That's part of what you see, their behavior and their behavior towards other people.
这是你所看到的、他们的行为以及他们对待他人的行为的一部分。
It was a brilliant thing.
这是一件很棒的事情。
I don't remember the name of the program, but there was a guy who was head of a company, and when he was interviewing people for high-level jobs, he pretended he was a taxi driver or something, would pick them up at the airport as the taxi driver and see how they treated him as the taxi driver.
我不记得这个节目的名字了，但是有一个人是一家公司的负责人，他在面试高层职位的时候，他假装自己是出租车司机什么的，会以出租车司机的身份去机场接他们，看看他们如何对待他作为出租车司机。
And then he gets in the interview room, and he's the guy interviewing them.
然后他进入采访室，他就是采访他们的人。
And in some cases, people treated him really disrespectfully, and it's like, "Now I know this is not someone I want."
在某些情况下，人们对待他非常不尊重，就像，“现在我知道这不是我想要的人。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Clever.
聪明。
I made the decision to not work for somebody years ago, when I was on the very different stage of my career, based on how that person treated a janitor.
几年前，当我处于职业生涯的不同阶段时，我决定不为某人工作，基于那个人对待看门人的方式。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was amazing because it was one very brief interaction, and it wasn't like this person yelled at the janitor.
这太神奇了，因为这是一次非常简短的互动，而且这个人不像对看门人大喊大叫。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was the kind of dismissiveness.
那是一种不屑一顾的态度。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I remember it was your web approach.
我记得这是你的网络方法。
I guess I just revealed.
我想我刚刚透露了。
It was his words towards the janitor.
这是他对看门人说的话。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was my emotional response was sort of like, I felt like I had been kind of kicked in the stomach.
我的情绪反应有点像，我感觉自己的肚子被踢了一脚。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was like, "Hey!" It just felt like a very, what I would call the football play, unnecessary roughness.
就像是，“嘿！”感觉就像是一种非常，我称之为足球比赛，不必要的粗暴。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was mild from the perspective of no one got physical or called anyone names, but I remember thinking, like, "Ugh, that sucked."
从没有人与任何人发生肢体冲突或辱骂任何人的角度来看，这很温和，但我记得我当时想，“呃，这太糟糕了。”
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then their behavior was just to go right back to what they were talking about.
然后他们的行为只是回到他们正在谈论的事情上。
And I knew in that moment, I was really crestfallen because in that moment I knew, "Oh my goodness, I can't work for this person."
在那一刻我知道，我真的很沮丧，因为那一刻我知道，“天哪，我不能为这个人工作。”
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, I just can't.
就像，我就是不能。
And I made the decision not to, and actually their response to my deciding not to, for a variety of other reasons too, confirmed everything that I suspected in that one little interaction.
我决定不这样做，实际上他们对我决定不这样做的反应，也出于各种其他原因，证实了我在那次小小的互动中怀疑的一切。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's interesting because we're trained to collect data rather carefully, and we don't want to make snap judgments.
但这很有趣，因为我们接受过相当仔细地收集数据的训练，并且我们不想做出仓促的判断。
Somebody could truly be having a bad day, but in this case-
有人可能真的度过了糟糕的一天，但在这种情况下——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it was the right decision to not work for them.
不为他们工作是正确的决定。
Thank goodness.
谢天谢地。
I thank my lucky stars.
我感谢我的幸运星。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Made some really bad decisions about people in my life.
对我生活中的人做出了一些非常糟糕的决定。
That was a really good decision.
这真是一个很好的决定。
I never spent a day regretting it.
我从来没有一天后悔过。
And I went to work for someone else who was terrific instead.
我却去为另一个很棒的人工作。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But as you said, these things sometimes hit at a somatic level as opposed to some sort of, wait, some very cerebral analytic thing.
但正如你所说，这些事情有时会在躯体层面上发生，而不是某种，等等，一些非常大脑分析的事情。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It hits at what must be a very primitive circuit.
它击中了一个非常原始的电路。
I can't help the neuroscientist in me wants to say, it's got to be something at the level of the body where we go, "Wait, that was messed up."
我内心的神经科学家忍不住想说，这一定是我们身体层面上的某种东西，“等等，那是一团糟。”
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you can't really point to a specific word, and then you start to question yourself.
你无法真正指出一个特定的词，然后你开始质疑自己。
That's the problem.
这就是问题所在。
You wonder, "Well, maybe their tone was...
你想知道，“嗯，也许他们的语气是......
Maybe it's my own perception," but I don't know.
也许这是我自己的看法，”但我不知道。
Maybe the body doesn't lie.
也许身体不会说谎。
Maybe it knows.
也许它知道。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
I think the body is like a first responder-
我认为身体就像第一反应者-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
...
...
and that we should pay attention to that, and especially with high-conflict personalities, especially the con artists, which is part of antisocial personality, and the ones I've dealt with are very good at this, is their words are just right, and your brain is soothed by them.
我们应该注意这一点，尤其是对于高度冲突的人格，尤其是骗子，这是反社会人格的一部分，我所处理过的人非常擅长这一点，他们的话恰到好处，你的大脑被他们安抚了。
You go, "This person gets it, and I'm totally comfortable.
你会说：“这个人明白了，我感到非常舒服。
They're charming," all of that, and your gut goes, "Wait, they're out of sync.
他们很迷人，”所有这一切，你的直觉会说，“等等，他们不同步。
I have this cold feeling.
我有这种寒冷的感觉。
Why do I have this cold feeling?" And I think that they're aimed at your cerebral thinking.
为什么我有这种冰冷的感觉？”我认为它们针对的是你的大脑思维。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And that your guts kind of gets it, because they're, in a way, predatory.
你的直觉会明白这一点，因为从某种程度上来说，它们是掠夺性的。
Like antisocial tend to be predatory.
就像反社会倾向具有掠夺性一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those people have dead eyes.
那些人的眼睛都是死的。
I've known a few.
我认识几个。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've known a few, men and women, and their eyes are, I can only describe, and I'm a vision neuroscientist.
我认识一些人，男人和女人，他们的眼睛，我只能描述，我是一名视觉神经科学家。
That's what my career has been in.
这就是我的职业生涯。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And those are two little pieces of brain right there, and there's something about the deadness, and I don't have a science to support what I'm about to say.
那是大脑的两个小部分，有一些关于死亡的东西，而我没有科学来支持我要说的话。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's something about the deadness in their eyes.
他们的眼里有一种死气沉沉的感觉。
Maybe their pupils don't change shape with levels of arousal the same way other people's do, because we know that happens in healthy people with a healthy autonomic nervous system, but there's something lacking.
也许他们的瞳孔不会像其他人那样随着兴奋程度而改变形状，因为我们知道这种情况发生在具有健康自主神经系统的健康人身上，但还缺少一些东西。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people make up all sorts of theories online.
人们在网上提出各种各样的理论。
I'm not a big blinker.
我不是一个大眼罩。
When I'm concentrating, blinks break up my flow, and this is actually a way I can remember things.
当我集中注意力时，眨眼会打断我的注意力，这实际上是我记住事情的一种方式。
People have these theories about blinking, non-blinking.
人们有关于眨眼和不眨眼的理论。
The research doesn't support any relationship between blink frequency and personality.
该研究不支持眨眼频率与性格之间存在任何关系。
They had this whole theory about Zuck too, like he doesn't blink, therefore he's whatever, he's a robot.
他们对扎克也有这样的一套理论，就像他不眨眼，所以他就是个机器人。
None of that holds up.
这些都站不住脚。
What does hold up, however, is this mismatch between words and the affect that it creates in us.
然而，真正成立的是词语和它在我们身上产生的情感之间的不匹配。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's sort of like it sounds right, but it doesn't feel right.
听起来好像是对的，但感觉不太对。
I wish we understood more about this at the level of science.
我希望我们在科学层面上更多地了解这一点。
There are a lot of theories, not a lot of tools.
有很多理论，但没有很多工具。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Someday, I think.
我想，有一天。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The tools for measuring this stuff are getting better.
测量这些东西的工具正在变得越来越好。
I wanted to ask you about other ways of just knowing if you're interacting with a high-conflict person, when the cues are more subtle.
我想问你，当线索更加微妙时，是否有其他方法可以知道你是否正在与一个高度冲突的人互动。
Are there other things or examples of the web method that come to mind?
是否还想到了网络方法的其他事物或示例？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Well, for me, of course, dealing with court especially, there's a lot of stuff in writing, and so being able to look at what's written.
嗯，当然，对我来说，尤其是与法庭打交道，有很多书面内容，因此能够查看书面内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And a lot of blame words, the all-or-nothing words, "She did this," and, "She did that," and disparaging words, "She's stupid," or whatever, or, "He's a bully, he's this and that," which triggers for me, maybe he is or maybe the person saying it is, but it heightens my attention.
还有很多责备的话，全有或全无的话语，“她做了这个”，“她做了那个”，以及贬低性的话语，“她很愚蠢”，或者诸如此类，或者，“他是一个恶霸，他是这样的，”这对我来说，也许他是，也许是说这句话的人，但它提高了我的注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
How do you disambiguate between projection and a real thing?
您如何区分投影和真实事物之间的歧义？
Like online now, one of the fastest ways to get a popular ...
就像现在在网上一样，获得流行的最快方法之一......
social media account is for somebody to give advice about how to avoid bad people.
社交媒体帐户供某人提供有关如何避免坏人的建议。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Name-calling, gaslighting, narcissist, sociopath, psychopath, history on it.
谩骂、煤气灯操纵、自恋者、反社会者、精神病患者，等等。
These are clinical terms that now the general public can leverage to sort of amplify community.
这些是临床术语，现在公众可以利用它们来扩大社区。
And then in part, I understand from talking to people on the tech side, is that social media is social.
从与技术方面的人交谈中我了解到，社交媒体是社交的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The accounts that grow fastest are the ones where you don't need much language to convey what you're trying to convey, like a sport or dance or an animal.
增长最快的帐户是那些不需要太多语言来传达您想要传达的内容的帐户，例如运动、舞蹈或动物。
And among the others that grow very quickly, and therefore are rewarding to people, are ones where you're recruiting these negative advocates.
在其他增长非常快、因此对人们有益的项目中，就是招募这些负面拥护者的项目。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
First of all, I want to make sure that I get this point across, and that is there's a lot of temptation to label people with the mental disorders, the personality disorders, and it's absolutely essential that people don't do that.
首先，我想确保我明白这一点，那就是，人们很容易给人们贴上精神障碍、人格障碍的标签，人们绝对不要这样做。
If you think somebody might be a narcissist or might have borderline personality or be antisocial, keep that to yourself and adapt how you work with them to be more effective or be more cautious, whatever.
如果你认为某人可能是自恋者，或者可能有边缘人格，或者反社会，那么就不要告诉自己，并调整你与他们的合作方式，以变得更有效或更谨慎，无论如何。
But the worst thing, I think, is people say, "Oh," and everyone agrees, "That person's a narcissist," so we kind of gang up on that person.
但我认为最糟糕的是人们说“哦”，然后每个人都同意“那个人是个自恋者”，所以我们就联合起来对付那个人。
That's not helpful.
那没有帮助。
The goal is not rejecting people.
目标不是拒绝人。
The goal is adapting what you do to either manage the relationship, decide, "Okay, that's not someone I'm going to get close to, but I can still work with them or have them as neighbors or whatever." So I want to emphasize that because I think you're right.
目标是调整你所做的事情来管理这种关系，决定，“好吧，那不是我要接近的人，但我仍然可以与他们一起工作或让他们成为邻居或其他什么。”所以我想强调这一点，因为我认为你是对的。
There's a lot of that today, and people come to me with that concern and say, "Bill, you teach about personality disorders." Yes, so people understand patterns of behavior and how to adapt your own behavior.
今天有很多这样的事情，人们带着这样的担忧来找我说：“比尔，你教的是人格障碍。”是的，这样人们就了解行为模式以及如何调整自己的行为。
I'm not teaching people to label other people, so that's real important.
我并不是教人们给别人贴标签，所以这非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, people go to school for many years and do 3,000-plus clinical hours to learn-
是的，人们上学很多年，花 3000 多个临床时间来学习——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
That's what I do
这就是我所做的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
how to do that.
如何做到这一点。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To do that properly.
正确地做到这一点。
It's like diagnosing anything, right?
这就像诊断任何事情，对吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A dermatologist might be able to help diagnose a skin patch for potential cancer, but we're taught that we're not supposed to do that ourselves.
皮肤科医生也许能够帮助诊断皮肤贴片是否存在潜在的癌症，但我们被告知我们不应该自己这样做。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
But-
但是——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
So we have to be cautious, but on the other hand, aware, and the more you're aware of patterns, like being aware of someone with an alcohol abuse issue, is to go, "Okay, I'm not going to be serving him alcohol with dinner.
所以我们必须谨慎，但另一方面，要意识到，你越了解模式，比如意识到某人有酗酒问题，就会说，“好吧，我不会在晚餐时给他喝酒。
He's a great person, but I'm just going to leave that out of the evening meal." Adapt what we do rather than judging them.
他是一个很棒的人，但我打算把它排除在晚餐之外。”适应我们所做的事情，而不是评判他们。
And I don't see people with personality disorders as lesser beings.
我并不认为有人格障碍的人是低等生物。
I see them as having a different set of behaviors that they acquire pretty much in childhood.
我认为他们有一套不同的行为，这些行为是他们在童年时期习得的。
So I don't hold it against them.
所以我不反对他们。
I may dislike their patterns of behavior, but I really don't hate people like that.
我可能不喜欢他们的行为模式，但我真的不讨厌那样的人。
I've been a therapist with clients like that.
我曾担任过这样的客户的治疗师。
So I think our awareness needs to be there, so we adapt how we work with people.
所以我认为我们需要有意识，因此我们要调整与人合作的方式。
But I think the gut feeling is so important, and as a therapist, I was trained, pay attention to your gut because that's going to help you with your clients.
但我认为直觉非常重要，作为一名治疗师，我接受过培训，注意你的直觉，因为这会帮助你与你的客户打交道。
And that's why the WEBB method, their words, their behavior, but how I feel often gives me tips.
这就是为什么 WEBB 方法、他们的言语、他们的行为，但我的感受经常给我提示。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mentioned before, and I think it's really important to highlight, that people's patterns of interactions across a lot of different domains, with the teachers in the school, with close family members, with the people that know them best at work, that these different types of relationships reveal a pattern.
你之前提到过，我认为强调这一点非常重要，人们在许多不同领域的互动模式，与学校的老师、与亲密的家庭成员、与工作中最了解他们的人，这些不同类型的关系揭示了一种模式。
And one of the things, just speaking from my own experience, is that where I've gone wrong, I've tended to overemphasize the importance of a credential.
从我自己的经验来看，其中一件事是，在我犯错的地方，我倾向于过分强调证书的重要性。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For instance, some of my past romantic relationships have been with people who are highly educated, some less higher education.
例如，我过去的一些恋爱关系是与受过高等教育的人建立的，有些是与受过高等教育的人建立的。
All extremely smart people, some more formal, some less formal education.
所有非常聪明的人，有些人受过正规教育，有些人受过不太正规的教育。
But I think that I and other people sometimes will look at the CV of somebody, and of course, that's not the only indication of-
但我认为我和其他人有时会查看某人的简历，当然，这并不是唯一的迹象-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
their values, et cetera.
他们的价值观等等。
And to overemphasize, like, "Oh, well, they did difficult things in a difficult setting and therefore must be a good person."
并且过度强调，比如，“哦，好吧，他们在困难的环境中做了困难的事情，因此一定是一个好人。”
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So would you say that these high-conflict personalities exist more or less in high-competition venues versus low-competition venues?
那么您是否认为这些高度冲突的人物或多或少存在于高竞争场所而不是低竞争场所？
I don't want to make this about socioeconomic status.
我不想谈论社会经济地位。
Those things correlate, but all too often, we tend to do the kind of good on paper analysis-
这些事情是相关的，但很多时候，我们倾向于在纸质分析上做一些好事——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and forget the how do they actually measure up in real life?
却忘记了他们在现实生活中的实际表现如何？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
I would say, first of all, that we see high-conflict people in every occupation, in every culture, in every community, every economic status.
我想说，首先，我们在每一种职业、每一种文化、每一个社区、每一种经济地位中都看到高度冲突的人。
I don't think there's research on this, but I think that healthcare and higher education are two fields where there's a slightly higher incidence-
我不认为有这方面的研究，但我认为医疗保健和高等教育是发病率稍高的两个领域-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Higher
更高
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
...
...
of high-conflict people because there's a higher tole-- Oh, also, I would say churches, and we get consultations with churches sometimes.
高度冲突的人，因为有更高的目标——哦，还有，我会说教会，我们有时会与教会进行协商。
There's a high tolerance for behavior that's outside the norm because-
人们对不正常的行为有很高的容忍度，因为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you said higher education and healthcare-
所以你说高等教育和医疗保健-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Care
护理
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in particular.
特别是。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And I would say churches-
我想说的是教堂——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are we talking about physicians and universities?
我们在谈论医生和大学吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Students and faculty and staff?
学生和教职员工？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes, both.
是的，两者都有。
Administrators sometimes.
有时是管理员。
And I believe it's because of the higher tolerance.
我相信这是因为更高的宽容度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Administrators.
管理员。
Just kidding.
只是在开玩笑。
I've been blessed with good administrators.
我很幸运拥有优秀的管理者。
I've been blessed with great administrators.
我很幸运能遇到优秀的管理者。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Well, let me mention, I do a lot of consultation, and one of the things that people come to me about is people with little power bases, like department heads in universities.
好吧，让我提一下，我做了很多咨询，人们来找我的原因之一是那些没有什么权力基础的人，比如大学的系主任。
I remember one university I did a consultation with about a department head, and they were a medical school.
我记得我曾咨询过一所大学的系主任，他们是一所医学院。
And they had a high-conflict person high up in the structure who was really, I was told, damaging some of the students' careers because they looked at them cross-eyed or something like that, so they wouldn't write the kind of recommendation that they needed.
他们在高层有一个高度冲突的人，我被告知，他确实损害了一些学生的职业生涯，因为他们用斗鸡眼或类似的方式看待他们，所以他们不会写出他们需要的那种推荐信。
And how can we deal with this person, because they're embedded in their position.
我们该如何对待这个人，因为他们已经融入了自己的立场。
So gave them a variety of tips.
所以给了他们各种提示。
But that's why I think people do need to have their eyes open in these fields.
但这就是为什么我认为人们确实需要在这些领域睁大眼睛。
And I want to add, since I'm talking about occupations, we see this a little bit more in nonprofits and nonprofit administrators, because, again, nonprofits are good people doing good things, but they have this higher tolerance for administrators with bad behavior because they're good people.
我想补充一点，因为我谈论的是职业，所以我们在非营利组织和非营利组织管理者中看到更多一点，因为非营利组织是做好事的好人，但他们对行为不良的管理者有更高的容忍度，因为他们是好人。
And that blinds people to-
这让人们看不到——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because of the assumption they're good people?
因为假设他们是好人？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or because the mission is good.
或者因为使命是好的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
The mission is good, and they're invested in this mission, so they must be good.
使命是好的，他们也投入到这个使命中，所以他们一定是好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that's part of what got them there?
你认为这是他们到达那里的部分原因吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
And the thing that's so tricky is everybody's somewhat unique, but also these are some recognizable patterns of behavior once you know to look for them.
棘手的是每个人都有些独特，但一旦你知道寻找它们，这些都是一些可识别的行为模式。
And we're doing much more in the workplace now, and employers want to know, we want to promote this person.
我们现在在工作场所做了更多的事情，雇主想知道，我们想晋升这个人。
Is that a good or bad idea?
这是好主意还是坏主意？
Well, let's look at the patterns of behavior, because once you put them in an embedded position, things are going to be harder.
好吧，让我们看看行为模式，因为一旦你将它们置于嵌入位置，事情就会变得更加困难。
I've been approached by city councils.
市议会已与我联系。
They say, "We've got somebody on our city council that's a high-conflict person.
他们说：“我们的市议会中有一个人是一个高度冲突的人。
What do we do?
我们该怎么办？
Do we confront them?
我们面对他们吗？
Do we publicly talk about them?" All that stuff.
我们公开谈论它们吗？”所有这些东西。
I say, "Neither of those is good." "Learn how to manage them until they move on." And they often do, because people slowly go, "We don't like working with this person."
我说：“这两个都不好。” “学习如何管理他们，直到他们继续前进。”他们经常这样做，因为人们慢慢地会说，“我们不喜欢和这个人一起工作。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
When I was a graduate student, there was a department chair in the department, big personality.
我读研究生的时候，系里有一个系主任，个性很大。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like big personality.
喜欢大个性。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I very quickly came to realize, also because I listened to the faculty that were under this person, that despite having this big, larger than life personality that you might initially place into a category of diagnosis or something-
我很快就意识到，也因为我听了这个人手下的教职员工的意见，尽管他有如此伟大的、超越生活的个性，你最初可能会将其归入诊断或其他类别——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that this person was an incredibly strong advocate for the faculty.
这个人是教师的一位非常强有力的倡导者。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they loved that.
他们喜欢这样。
And he was really beloved.
他真的很受人爱戴。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think rightfully so.
我认为这是正确的。
And at a surface level, might've rubbed a few people the wrong way.
从表面上看，可能会惹恼一些人。
I think as students, we were like, "Oh, whoa." It was almost like we didn't quite know how to respond to it.
我想作为学生，我们会说，“哦，哇。”就好像我们不太知道如何应对。
But you very quickly got the sense of a real paternal nature in this person.
但你很快就能感受到这个人真正的父亲本性。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I point this out because sometimes these big personalities are really, truly benevolent.
所以我指出这一点是因为有时这些大人物真的非常仁慈。
Now, I'm not saying he was a perfect human being.
现在，我并不是说他是一个完美的人。
How could I know that?
我怎么知道呢？
I don't know that.
我不知道。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't know him in all domains of his life.
我对他生活的方方面面都不了解。
Although I did know his family, and he seemed to have a great, strong family, too.
虽然我确实认识他的家人，而且他似乎也有一个伟大而强大的家庭。
But then by contrast, I'm thinking of the person I alluded to earlier, different department, different university, who was more meek, certainly is more of the stereotypical lab scientist, but then there was this interaction that I observed and I thought, "Whoa, that's really dreadful.
但相比之下，我想到了我之前提到的那个人，不同的部门，不同的大学，他更温和，当然更像是典型的实验室科学家，但后来我观察到了这种互动，我想，“哇，这真的很可怕。
At least that's not an environment I want to be in."
至少那不是我想要置身其中的环境。”
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So sometimes these things don't match our initial impressions.
所以有时候这些东西并不符合我们最初的印象。
I raise this because sometimes we think big personality, AKA high-conflict personality, sometimes we think quieter, nerdy type, and they're actually quite dreadful.
我提出这个问题是因为有时我们认为性格大，又名高冲突性格，有时我们认为安静，书呆子类型，他们实际上非常可怕。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it doesn't always fit.
所以它并不总是适合。
And I think the problem with the internet, social media version of this, the typical version, because there's some great social media, internet stuff-
我认为问题在于互联网、社交媒体版本、典型版本，因为有一些很棒的社交媒体、互联网东西——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
podcasts, et cetera, is that we default to what we see-
播客等等，我们默认看到的是我们所看到的——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and what we hear, but we don't really have the data.
以及我们所听到的，但我们没有真正的数据。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And we can get manipulated that way.
我们可能会被这样操纵。
That's what's tricky, but you raised several important points.
这就是棘手的地方，但你提出了几个重要的观点。
I want to respond to them all if I can remember them.
如果我能记住的话，我想对它们做出回应。
The first is that this is, in many ways, quite nuanced.
首先，这在很多方面都是非常微妙的。
The key thing to look out for with high-conflict people, a preoccupation with blaming others and not taking responsibility.
对于高度冲突的人来说，最重要的是要注意的是，他们总是全神贯注地指责他人而不承担责任。
So you might have a big personality that's not a high-conflict person.
所以你可能有一个很大的个性，但不是一个高度冲突的人。
You might have a meek, quiet person who is a high-conflict person.
你可能有一个温顺、安静的人，但同时也是一个高度冲突的人。
So you can't go by what your eyes see and your ears hear.
所以你不能凭眼睛看到、耳朵听到的来判断。
It's really a question of evidence, and that's why I think maybe I got into this after I became a lawyer, that there's no way to quickly know, although you may quickly suspect and then want to look deeper.
这确实是一个证据问题，这就是为什么我想也许我在成为一名律师后就陷入了这个问题，虽然你可能很快就会怀疑，然后想更深入地了解，但没有办法很快知道。
But I want to give an example because now that I seem to have criticized department heads and all of us-
但我想举个例子，因为现在我似乎批评了部门领导和我们所有人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I cited at least one that is really wonderful.
嗯，我至少引用了一篇非常精彩的文章。
I've known some other great department heads.
我还认识一些其他出色的部门主管。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are some chairs that are just like, first of all, as a department head, sometimes there's a slight salary increase.
有一些椅子就像，首先，作为部门主管，有时会有轻微的加薪。
Usually, it's trivial.
通常，这是微不足道的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These people don't do it for the money.
这些人不是为了钱才这么做的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a good friend who's also been on this podcast who's a chair of neurosurgery at a major-- These are people who, they work their Butts off to try and make conditions better for patients, for professors, for clinicians, for staff.
我有一个好朋友，他也参加了这个播客，他是一个专业的神经外科主任——这些人，他们竭尽全力，努力为患者、教授、临床医生和工作人员改善条件。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not just saying this.
我不只是说说而已。
I have no incentive for saying it.
我没有动力说出来。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These people don't control my life anymore.
这些人不再控制我的生活了。
Well, I suppose my chair of ophthalmology, who's a wonderful person, does, et cetera.
嗯，我想我的眼科主任是一个很棒的人，他也是如此。
But the point is that there are some people that step up to the plate to lead-
但重点是，有一些人站出来领导——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that are really great leaders.
他们都是非常伟大的领导者。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And these are just not the people that we're focusing on today.
这些人并不是我们今天关注的人。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
And so the thing I want to emphasize, that my favorite example is Steve Jobs.
所以我想强调的是，我最喜欢的例子是史蒂夫·乔布斯。
Steve Jobs, I would say, hands down, was a high-conflict person.
我想说，史蒂夫·乔布斯毫无疑问是一个高度冲突的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Famous for it.
以此而闻名。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
There was a guy in Silicon Valley, wrote a book, "The No A-Hole Rule," and he talked about Steve Jobs in there because he knew Steve Jobs.
硅谷有一个人写了一本书，《无孔规则》，他在那里谈论史蒂夫·乔布斯，因为他了解史蒂夫·乔布斯。
He was in Silicon Valley.
他在硅谷。
So I remember reading his biography, like 1,000 pages or whatever, and what stood out to me was that he blamed people, sometimes all-or-nothing thinking.
所以我记得读过他的传记，大约有 1000 页之类的，对我来说最突出的是他责备别人，有时是全有或全无的想法。
They talked about his distortion-
他们谈论了他的扭曲——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Reality distortion field
现实扭曲场
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
...
...
reality distortion field.
现实扭曲场。
And that's exactly what high-conflict people do, the all-or-nothing thinking.
这正是高度冲突的人所做的事情，即全有或全无的想法。
"You got to do this.
“你必须这样做。
You can do this." People say, "That's not possible.
你可以做到这一点。”人们说：“那是不可能的。
It's physically impossible, Steve.
这在物理上是不可能的，史蒂夫。
You can't do this." And then he would push them.
你不能这样做。”然后他会推动他们。
And one example that stood out to me was touch screen.
对我来说最突出的一个例子是触摸屏。
Glass that you touch, and it knows where you are.
你触摸的玻璃，它知道你在哪里。
I think, and I may have it wrong, but from reading his autobiography, that he harangued Corning Ware Glass Company, Corning Company, something like that, to create that.
我认为，我可能错了，但从读他的自传来看，他大声疾呼康宁玻璃公司、康宁公司之类的东西，创造了这个。
And they said, "You can't do it.
他们说：“你做不到。
It's not physically possible." He says, "Do it, and do it in the next 90 days." And they did.
这在物理上是不可能的。”他说：“去做吧，在接下来的 90 天内去做。”他们做到了。
They invented this thing that they probably would not have done unless he pushed them.
他们发明了这个东西，除非他推动他们，否则他们可能不会做。
So high-conflict person, but I don't think he had a personality disorder.
如此高度冲突的人，但我不认为他有人格障碍。
People say, "Oh, Steve's an incredible narcissist." But personality disorder is characterized by lack of change, lack of self-awareness, lack of flexibility, and they shoot themselves in the foot, and it interferes with their success.
人们说：“哦，史蒂夫是个令人难以置信的自恋者。”但人格障碍的特点是缺乏改变、缺乏自我意识、缺乏灵活性，他们搬起石头砸自己的脚，妨碍了他们的成功。
He, I think, was close to that, but he had enough flexibility, and he picked a team that pushed back on him, and he liked that.
我认为，他已经接近这个目标了，但他有足够的灵活性，他选择了一支能够对他进行反击的球队，他喜欢这一点。
So he's an example to me of high-conflict person, probably not personality disorder, and successful because he probably had some traits of these personalities.
所以他对我来说是一个高度冲突的人的例子，可能不是人格障碍，并且成功是因为他可能具有这些人格的一些特征。
So what I see is you totally have to look for the evidence, that you can't make an assumption.
所以我认为你完全必须寻找证据，你不能做出假设。
But if your gut says, "Maybe something's off here," pay attention to that, but look for the facts, talk to other people that know this person, see them in other situations.
但如果你的直觉告诉你，“也许这里出了什么问题”，请注意这一点，但要寻找事实，与认识这个人的其他人交谈，看看他们在其他情况下的情况。
Because there's incredible people like him that accomplish a lot of really good stuff that you don't want to say, "Oh, we can't have him." Apple fired him in the 1990s, and he seemed to learn from that.
因为像他这样令人难以置信的人完成了很多非常好的事情，你不想说，“哦，我们不能拥有他。”苹果在 20 世纪 90 年代解雇了他，他似乎从中吸取了教训。
He seemed to grow from that.
他似乎因此而成长。
People with personality disorders don't seem to grow and change, and that's their problem.
有人格障碍的人似乎不会成长和改变，这就是他们的问题。
They're stuck.
他们被困住了。
High-conflict people, they blame others.
高度冲突的人，他们指责别人。
If they have some traits, maybe you can do a workaround.
如果他们有一些特征，也许你可以采取解决方法。
So there's many people in position.
所以有很多人在位。
Surgeons are one group I want to mention briefly, because as a clinical social worker, I worked in hospitals and dealt with doctors a lot.
外科医生是我想简单提及的一个群体，因为作为一名临床社会工作者，我在医院工作并经常与医生打交道。
As a lawyer, I've represented doctors in their divorces.
作为一名律师，我曾代表医生办理离婚案件。
Several, I think, are high-conflict people, but most aren't, and that's what I want to say.
我认为有几个人是高度冲突的人，但大多数人不是，这就是我想说的。
Most department heads aren't high-conflict people.
大多数部门主管都不是高度冲突的人。
Most surgeons aren't high-conflict people, even though they get a reputation for that.
大多数外科医生都不是高度冲突的人，尽管他们因此而闻名。
Police is another area.
警察是另一个领域。
Military's another area.
军事是另一个领域。
Probably slightly higher incidence, because they're in a position where they can dominate and control people.
发生率可能稍高一些，因为他们处于可以支配和控制人们的位置。
But most police aren't like that.
但大多数警察不是这样的。
Most people in the military aren't high-conflict people.
军队中的大多数人都不是高度冲突的人。
They're professional people.
他们是专业人士。
They like their job.
他们喜欢他们的工作。
They know their job.
他们知道自己的工作。
They have empathy.
他们有同理心。
They work with people.
他们与人合作。
So even though some of these occupations, there's a higher incidence, and that's certainly true for lawyers, I think.
因此，即使其中一些职业的发生率较高，我认为对于律师来说也是如此。
But most people, most lawyers aren't like that.
但大多数人、大多数律师并不是这样的。
Most lawyers I know are really committed to their work, really want to help their clients.
我认识的大多数律师都非常致力于他们的工作，非常想帮助他们的客户。
So I want to be clear that this is nuanced stuff, but when you're hiring people, when you're getting into a dating relationship, you want to watch more closely, because it's the close relationships where high-conflict behavior comes out more.
所以我想澄清的是，这是微妙的事情，但是当你雇用人员时，当你进入约会关系时，你想要更密切地观察，因为在亲密关系中，高冲突行为更容易出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the web method seems like a very good method, as well as paying attention to, and maybe getting some information from other people-
所以网络方法看起来是一个非常好的方法，还有关注，也许还可以从其他人那里得到一些信息——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
close to that person in different domains of their life.
在生活的不同领域与那个人保持密切的关系。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That seems like a very sage way to approach this.
这似乎是解决这个问题的一种非常明智的方法。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And because when you hear from different people the same problem, then that should raise your antenna.
因为当你从不同的人那里听到同样的问题时，你就应该提高警惕。
Okay.
好的。
A lot of people say, "Yeah, but this person can be really irritable." And you go, "Okay.
很多人会说：“是啊，但是这个人真的很烦躁。”然后你就说：“好吧。
Oh, they're irritable in different settings.
哦，他们在不同的环境下都很烦躁。
I'm going to think about that."
我会考虑一下。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about when somebody is already involved with a high-conflict person and they want to disentangle?
当某人已经与一个高度冲突的人有关系并且他们想要摆脱困境时该怎么办？
I could imagine a couple different scenarios.
我可以想象几种不同的场景。
Let's say disentangle from a professional relationship, disentangle from a personal relationship.
比方说，摆脱职业关系，摆脱个人关系。
Probably some overlap there, but slightly different.
可能有一些重叠，但略有不同。
Let's assume the high-conflict person is a high-conflict victim type Then let's compare that to if the high-conflict person is more of a combative type.
让我们假设高度冲突的人是高度冲突的受害者类型，然后让我们将其与高度冲突的人是否更具好斗性进行比较。
Maybe we'll start with the combative type.
也许我们会从好斗类型开始。
So if you're dealing with a combative, maybe even, dare we say, narcissistic type, I don't know that we should diagnose-
所以，如果你面对的是一个好斗的，甚至我们敢说，自恋型的人，我不知道我们应该诊断-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but the stereotype that comes to mind, somebody that gets angry when you don't fulfill their expectations-
但我脑海中浮现的刻板印象是，当你没有满足他们的期望时，有人会生气——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and blames others, does not take responsibility, and it's time you decide to, like the Homer Simpson meme, kind of drift back into the hedge.
责怪他人，不承担责任，是时候你决定像荷马·辛普森模因一样，回到篱笆里了。
Is that the way to do it, or do you lay a clear line and say, "Listen, I'm not going to tolerate this anymore.
这是这样做的方法吗，还是你要明确界限并说：“听着，我不会再容忍这种事了。
I'm out"?
我出去了”？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
It's really somewhat dependent on the nature of the relationship.
这实际上在某种程度上取决于关系的性质。
I do a lot of consultation.
我做了很多咨询。
We do a lot of training with High Conflict Institute, so we get married people getting divorced.
我们在高冲突研究所进行了大量培训，所以我们结婚的人也离婚了。
We get business partnerships where there's one partner that they're going, "We got to deal with this." We have employees trying to get away from a high-conflict supervisor, and we have supervisors trying to deal with a high-conflict employee.
我们建立商业伙伴关系时，他们会向一个合作伙伴说：“我们必须处理这个问题。”我们有员工试图逃离高度冲突的主管，也有主管试图与高度冲突的员工打交道。
So slightly different settings.
所以设置略有不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The most common situation is going to be where somebody has a friend or a romantic partner, or a business professional partner they want to get out of.
最常见的情况是某人有朋友或浪漫伴侣，或者他们想要摆脱的商业专业合作伙伴。
So I suppose any of those.
所以我想其中任何一个。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
A close-
一个近距离的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
...
...
so a partner kind of relationship.
所以是一种伙伴关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, something where the person expects to hear from you-
是的，这个人希望听到你的消息——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on a fairly regular basis, expects things from you.
定期对您有所期望。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could be professional things, could be personal things, but where there's an ongoing expectation that you show up emotionally, physically, financially, whatever.
可能是专业的事情，也可能是个人的事情，但是人们持续期望你在情感、身体、经济等方面表现出来。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
So first of all, we strongly recommend against the direct hit, is don't tell the person, "Look, you do this, this, and this, and that's terrible, and I don't want to work with you.
因此，首先，我们强烈建议不要直接打击，就是不要告诉对方，“看，你这样做，这样，这样，那太糟糕了，我不想和你一起工作。
I don't want to be in a relationship with you.
我不想和你发生关系。
I don't want to be close to you because of your behavior." That, high-conflict people, puts them through the roof.
我不想因为你的行为而靠近你。”那些高度冲突的人，让他们达到了顶峰。
They will defend themselves, and for the next months or years, they may put you in litigation.
他们会为自己辩护，在接下来的几个月或几年里，他们可能会让你陷入诉讼。
They may stalk you, depending on your relationship.
他们可能会跟踪您，具体取决于您的关系。
They will hate you for that.
他们会因此而恨你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They'll blame you.
他们会责怪你。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
They will blame you, and that fulfills their picture that it's all your fault.
他们会责怪你，这就证实了他们的想法：这都是你的错。
And now, look, you have violated the most basic thing, is that you will never blame me.
而现在，你看，你已经违反了最基本的事情，就是你永远不会责怪我。
So don't blame them.
所以不要责怪他们。
Second thing is, don't blame yourself, because that reinforces to them.
第二件事是，不要责怪自己，因为这会强化他们。
If you say, "I'm a sensitive person, and I just can't keep up with you.
如果你说：“我是一个敏感的人，我就是跟不上你。
I know I'm defective, and I know I'm no good at this, this, and this, and so I just have to end this relationship, and I so much apologize.
我知道我有缺陷，我知道我不擅长这个、这个、这个，所以我必须结束这段关系，我非常抱歉。
It's all my fault.
都是我的错。
I do everything wrong, and I'm going to go really look at myself and get some therapy, and I'm so sorry, but I just can't keep up with you.
我做的每件事都错了，我要认真审视自己并接受一些治疗，我很抱歉，但我就是跟不上你的步伐。
You're such a really good this, this, and this, and I just can't keep up with that." Well, they're going to blame you for that.
你真是太棒了，这个、这个、这个，我就是跟不上。”好吧，他们会为此责怪你。
And depending on their personality, if they tend to have borderline traits, they're going to feel abandoned by you.
根据他们的性格，如果他们倾向于具有边缘特征，他们会感到被你抛弃了。
If they have narcissistic traits, they're going to feel put down by you.
如果他们有自恋的特征，他们就会感到被你贬低。
Because you're supposed to see them as superior.
因为你应该将他们视为优越者。
If they have antisocial traits, they're going to feel like, "Wait a minute, you're supposed to be submissive to me, and yet you're walking away." So you don't want to blame yourself.
如果他们有反社会特征，他们会觉得，“等一下，你应该顺从我，但你却走开了。”所以你不想责怪自己。
So you're going to go, "Well, what's left?" What's left is we aren't a good fit.
所以你会说，“那么，还剩下什么？”剩下的就是我们不合适。
Our goals have gone in different directions.
我们的目标朝着不同的方向发展。
I'm really ready for a career change.
我真的已经准备好改变职业了。
I want to go back to school, or I just realized I'm not ready for a committed relationship.
我想回到学校，或者我刚刚意识到我还没有准备好建立忠诚的关系。
So it's not about you, and it's not about them.
所以这与你无关，也与他们无关。
It's not about blame.
这不是责备的问题。
You want to try to keep it away from blame.
你要尽量让它远离责备。
Now, some people say it's dishonest to not tell them everything, and let's talk about brutal honesty.
现在，有些人说不告诉他们一切是不诚实的，让我们谈谈残酷的诚实。
High-conflict people really love brutal honesty, and they'll tell you, "I'm just being honest.
经常发生冲突的人确实喜欢残酷的诚实，他们会告诉你，“我只是说实话。
You're stupid or a jerk or whatever." That's high-conflict people.
你要么是个傻子，要么是个混蛋，或者什么的。”那是高度冲突的人。
Reasonable people don't tell everybody every negative thing they think.
理性的人不会告诉每个人他们认为的每一件负面的事情。
That's just not healthy for relationships.
这对人际关系来说是不健康的。
So it's okay to say, "We seem to be going in different directions," or, "I have different plans I've realized I want to change." So those are basic principles.
因此，可以说“我们似乎正朝着不同的方向前进”，或者“我有不同的计划，我意识到我想要改变。”这些是基本原则。
The worst thing in ending a relationship or reducing contact is to go back and forth.
结束一段关系或减少联系最糟糕的事情就是反反复复。
The worst thing is to pour out your feelings to the person.
最糟糕的事情就是向对方倾诉自己的感受。
I have this with people getting divorced, and they tell them, "I'm so sorry, and I love you so much," and this and that.
我遇到过离婚的人，他们告诉他们，“我很抱歉，我非常爱你”，等等。
Pouring out your feelings to someone brings them closer to you.
向某人倾诉你的感受可以让他们更亲近你。
So you want to start holding back some, and the other person say, "Well, let's work.
所以你想开始阻止一些，而另一个人说：“好吧，让我们工作吧。
Let's go to counseling.
我们去咨询吧。
Let's do this." And if you're not sure, go to counseling.
我们就这样做吧。”如果您不确定，请去咨询。
I recommend that.
我建议这样做。
But if you're sure, just say, "I'm kind of not there anymore.
但如果你确定的话，就说：“我已经不在那儿了。
I really need to be more on my own." So don't go back and forth, because that really makes it raw and sometimes presages violence in divorces, is that A high-conflict person, especially with some of the personality disorder traits, can't handle the opening and closing.
我真的需要更多地依靠自己。”所以不要来来回回，因为这真的很原始，有时预示着离婚中的暴力，因为一个高度冲突的人，尤其是具有某些人格障碍特征的人，无法处理离婚的开始和结束。
But the other thing is, I say, do it in steps so the person can adjust.
但我说的另一件事是，分步骤进行，以便人们能够调整。
You might say, "I'm thinking about making a career change," or, "I'm thinking that maybe this relationship isn't the right one for me anymore." So the person gets used to the idea this may be coming to an end.
你可能会说，“我正在考虑改变职业”，或者，“我在想也许这种关系不再适合我了。”所以这个人习惯了这可能即将结束的想法。
And then, "I'd like to move out and have more time alone to think." And then you're at a safe distance and you say, "I've thought about it, and we really need to get divorced.
然后，“我想搬出去，有更多的时间独自思考。”然后你在安全距离处说：“我已经考虑过了，我们真的需要离婚。
And let's go to a divorce mediator.
让我们去找离婚调解员。
I want to be amicable.
我想要友善。
I don't hate you.
我不恨你。
In many ways, I still love you, but we're just not meant to be a couple anymore.
在很多方面，我仍然爱你，但我们不再是情侣了。
If there's kids involved, then I really want us to have a supportive relationship for them.
如果有孩子参与其中，那么我真的希望我们为他们建立一种支持关系。
If there aren't, then maybe this really is the end." But it's step by step, so this person can adjust to the fact that you really are leaving, but not too long and not too many steps, because then their expectations are raised, "Oh, maybe you're not really leaving." So these are general principles, depends a lot on the specifics.
如果没有，那么也许这真的是结局了。”但这是一步一步的，所以这个人可以适应你真的要离开的事实，但不能太长，也不能太多步骤，因为这样他们的期望就会提高，“哦，也许你并没有真的离开。”所以这些都是一般原则，很大程度上取决于具体情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that was very helpful in reference to the high-conflict person, especially not placing blame on them.
是的，这对于高度冲突的人非常有帮助，尤其是不要责怪他们。
I suppose in your own mind, you can hold all the litany of reasons why they-
我想在你自己的脑海里，你可以找到一长串的理由，为什么他们——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are a terrible choice, or I guess more typically, if we're realistic-
是一个糟糕的选择，或者我想更典型的是，如果我们现实的话——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's not going to be all black and white, right?
它不会是黑白分明的，对吧？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One would hope that at the first sight of really egregious behavior, people are like, "I'm done." But typically, it's a mix, right?
人们希望人们第一眼看到真正令人震惊的行为时会说：“我受够了。”但通常情况下，它是混合的，对吧？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Professionally, personally, it's often a mix.
从专业角度和个人角度来看，这往往是一个混合体。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I've certainly observed this professionally where people wanted to collect the degree, or they were three years into a degree, and leaving, it's always an option, and yet sometimes it's not an option.
我当然从专业角度观察到人们想要获得学位，或者他们获得学位三年，然后离开，这总是一个选择，但有时这不是一个选择。
They have plans and financial obligations and-
他们有计划和财务义务，并且——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sunk cost is a real thing.
沉没成本是真实存在的。
People always talk about sunk cost like, "Oh, that's just sunk cost." Sunk cost is a real thing.
人们总是谈论沉没成本，比如“哦，这只是沉没成本。”沉没成本是真实存在的。
So I think, okay, so with the high-conflict person, I think you beautifully illustrated how to not blame them, not blame yourself.
所以我想，好吧，对于高度冲突的人，我认为你很好地说明了如何不责怪他们，也不责怪自己。
Internally, you can hold any reasonable understanding-
在内部，你可以持有任何合理的理解——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you come to, but you don't have to share all that.
你会想到的，但你不必分享这一切。
And that you don't want to oscillate in-
而且你不想摇摆不定-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
your decision, but that perhaps some staging of the exit, not staging theatrically, rather staging meaning in stages.
你的决定，不过也许是某种舞台的退出，不是戏剧性的舞台，而是分阶段舞台的意义。
Increments would be a better word.
增量会是一个更好的词。
What about with the high-conflict victim playing person?
那么扮演高冲突受害者的人呢？
That seems like it's a little trickier.
这似乎有点棘手。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Let me-
让我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, please
是的，请
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
...
...
let me back up a minute, because I want to say there's some times where you just need to get out and do it all at once.
让我退后一步，因为我想说，有些时候你只需要出去一次性完成所有事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And don't ease yourself out.
并且不要放松自己。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Serious physical or emotional risks.
严重的身体或情感风险。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
So you may need to get away before you hint that, "I no longer want to be married to you." And I've worked with people, consulted with them on established, moving out when the other person isn't there.
因此，在暗示“我不再想和你结婚”之前，你可能需要离开。我和人们一起工作，与他们协商确定，当其他人不在时就搬出去。
They and the kids go to a safe place, they've got their lawyer, and then they tell this person that, "I'm getting divorced from you." Because people get killed when they separate with certain high-conflict domestic violence people.
他们和孩子们去了一个安全的地方，他们找到了律师，然后他们告诉这个人，“我要和你离婚。”因为当人们与某些高冲突家庭暴力的人分开时就会被杀。
So, also in the workplace, sometimes they're going to destroy...
所以，在工作场所，有时他们也会破坏......
They're going to send emails.
他们将发送电子邮件。
They're going to be really destructive.
他们将具有真正的破坏性。
You might say, "I'm going to leave in a month," and they're so angry that they're going to really destroy your business.
你可能会说，“我一个月后就要离开”，他们会非常生气，真的会毁掉你的生意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, this is why in the professional setting, there, forgive the word, because it's associated with this podcast often, but there are protocols for this in the workplace where if you have to let somebody go, there's a sequence of steps.
嗯，这就是为什么在专业环境中，请原谅这个词，因为它经常与这个播客相关，但在工作场所有这样的协议，如果你必须让某人离开，有一系列步骤。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And sometimes it involves telling people, "Go home.
有时它涉及告诉人们，“回家吧。
We'll ship you your things." That's one extreme.
我们会把你的东西寄给你。”这是一种极端。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Go home now," and there's somebody waiting to escort you out type of thing.
“现在回家吧”，有人在等着护送你出去之类的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Other times it's, "Listen, you're going to finish out the month, but you're going to finish that month out at home." Other times it's, "Hey, you're welcome to stay and continue to participate, but by X date, that's your final day." So there's any number of different variations on these themes in the professional setting.
其他时候，“听着，你要完成这个月的工作，但你要在家里完成这个月的工作。”其他时候则是，“嘿，欢迎您留下来并继续参与，但到 X 日期，那就是您的最后一天了。”因此，在专业环境中，这些主题有许多不同的变化。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it sounds like there's any number of different variations in the personal setting, too.
听起来个人设置也有很多不同的变化。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
It's nuanced.
这是微妙的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And that's where getting consultation and having a therapist, a lawyer, a high-conflict consultant, someone that you kind of walk it through with, maybe even practice what you're going to say with.
这就是获得咨询并请治疗师、律师、高冲突顾问、与你一起度过这一切的人，甚至可能练习你要说的话的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A third-party observer seems really key, right?
第三方观察员似乎真的很关键，对吧？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Often.
经常。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just for peace of mind.
只为心安。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
So mostly gradual, but sometimes fast.
所以大多是渐进的，但有时很快。
Really depends.
真的取决于。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Now, you asked about the person who plays the victim, and I would suggest that that's very common with high-conflict people, that when aggressive behavior doesn't work, they switch to, "Oh, how can you do this to me?
现在，你问到扮演受害者的人，我认为这在高度冲突的人中很常见，当攻击性行为不起作用时，他们会转而说：“哦，你怎么能这样对我？
I'm so sad." And what's interesting, the word that I didn't come up with this, other people came up with in divorce settings, where let's say you're divorcing someone with high conflict personality, and they're like, "I hate you.
我很伤心。”有趣的是，这个词不是我想出来的，而是其他人在离婚时想出来的，假设你要和一个性格高度冲突的人离婚，他们会说，“我恨你。
Don't leave me" kind of personality.
不要离开我”这种性格。
And so, "I'm divorcing you," and they rage at you, and then, "No, I'm really leaving." Then they switch and beg and plead.
所以，“我要和你离婚”，他们对你生气，然后，“不，我真的要离开。”然后他们切换并乞求和恳求。
And I've got cases where people say, "And my ex to be just seduced me, and somehow I went along with it because it felt real good." And it's back and forth from the high-conflict person, and they call it hoovering.
我遇到过这样的案例，人们会说，“我的前任只是引诱了我，但不知怎的，我就同意了，因为这感觉真的很好。”这是来自高度冲突的人的来来回回，他们称之为胡言乱语。
You go, "Hoovering?
你说：“胡林？
Where did that word come from?" The Hoover vacuum.
这个词是从哪里来的？”胡佛真空吸尘器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I see what you're saying.
哦，我明白你在说什么。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
What happens is they vacuum, they suck you back into the relationship.
发生的事情是他们吸尘，他们把你吸回到这段关系中。
And it's very common with some of the high-conflict personalities.
对于一些高度冲突的人来说，这种情况很常见。
They can't stand to lose you, and when rage doesn't work, then they try to seduce you back in.
他们无法忍受失去你，当愤怒不起作用时，他们就会试图引诱你回来。
And some people have allowed themselves to get back in, and that's not good.
有些人又让自己重新回来，这不好。
You've got to be ready for that.
你必须为此做好准备。
Don't be surprised by that, and don't give in to that if you're sure it's over.
不要对此感到惊讶，如果你确定一切都结束了，也不要屈服。
If you're not sure it's over, get couples counseling and see where it might go.
如果你不确定事情是否已经结束，请寻求夫妻咨询，看看事情会走向何方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know a number of people who, let's just say, conceived children very in close proximity to the ending of the relationship, and therefore, there was no end to the relationship until several years later.
我认识很多人，在关系结束时就怀上了孩子，因此，直到几年后，关系才结束。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know of a single case where that led to a persistence of the relationship-
我不知道有哪个案例会导致这种关系持续存在——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
I-
我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for better or worse.
无论好坏。
So, this sounds like it falls under the rubric of hoovering, right?
那么，这听起来像是属于吸尘器的范畴，对吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People are leaving, and then they end up-
人们正在离开，然后他们最终——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Pulled back in
被拉了回来
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
one more time, or just to try and make the pain go away type thing.
再一次，或者只是尝试让疼痛消失之类的事情。
And then they're bringing more of an attachment.
然后他们带来了更多的执着。
Obviously, a child is a forever tie, as they say.
显然，正如人们所说，孩子是永远的纽带。
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
I wouldn't say it's the majority of cases, for sure, but it's a common symptom with high-conflict people.
当然，我不会说这是大多数情况，但这是高冲突人群的常见症状。
And you hit on it.
然后你就击中了它。
It's like they can't handle the pain, and so they really bring the person back in.
就好像他们无法承受痛苦，所以他们真的把人带回来了。
But if this is the direction you're going, you need to let them start coping with the pain, either step by step or if it's dangerous, all at once.
但如果这是你要走的方向，你需要让他们开始应对痛苦，要么一步一步，要么如果有危险的话，一次性全部处理。
But don't go back if you can help it.
但如果可以的话就不要回去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are very helpful, they're not even tips.
这些非常有帮助，甚至不是提示。
This is very useful information-
这是非常有用的信息——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for everyone listening.
供大家聆听。
I'm sure they agree.
我确信他们同意。
We had a guest on this podcast, Jonathan Haidt.
我们的播客邀请了一位嘉宾，乔纳森·海特。
He's written the book, "Anxious Generation: The Coddling of the American Mind." And he mentioned some statistics that younger folks, so high school and younger, have seemed to lost or are losing the capacity to arbitrate among themselves.
他写了《焦虑的一代：美国心灵的溺爱》一书。他还提到了一些统计数据，年轻人，高中生或更年轻的人，似乎已经失去或正在失去相互仲裁的能力。
That now more typically, if there's a conflict, and here we're assuming not extreme conflict or anything-
现在更典型的是，如果存在冲突，这里我们假设不是极端冲突或其他什么——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
criminal, but where there's a conflict between two kids at school and they bring it to the authorities.
犯罪，但两个孩子在学校发生冲突，他们将其报告给当局。
When I was growing up, that was called tattling.
当我长大的时候，这被称为闲聊。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You were called a rat, and it got you semi-ostracized if you did it.
你被称为老鼠，如果你这么做了，你就会受到半排斥。
You learn quickly, don't do it.
你学得很快，别这么做。
Either you learn directly or you learn by observation.
要么直接学习，要么通过观察学习。
You don't want to be a tattletale.
你不想成为一个爱说闲话的人。
He claims that nowadays there's more of this lack of ability to arbitrate and kids calling out other kids publicly, and that parents are doing it now, too.
他声称，现在缺乏仲裁能力的情况越来越多，孩子们公开骂其他孩子，家长们现在也在这样做。
And this seems worrisome in-
这似乎令人担忧——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that it seems like it would foster this group segregation and cultivating through emotional contagion, blaming of others, and negative advocates.
它似乎会通过情绪感染、指责他人和消极倡导者来促进这个群体的隔离和培养。
I don't want to blame social media for everything because I love social media for certain things.
我不想把一切都归咎于社交媒体，因为我喜欢社交媒体做某些事情。
I exist on social media for a number of things that I believe are truly benevolent, so I'd be a-
我在社交媒体上存在是为了一些我认为真正仁慈的事情，所以我会-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
hypocrite if I said I didn't like social media.
如果我说我不喜欢社交媒体，那就是伪君子。
Love social media for certain things.
喜欢社交媒体某些事情。
But are you concerned about this?
但你担心这个吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This seems like a real issue.
这似乎是一个真正的问题。
The profession of law exists because of a lack of ability for people to arbitrate among themselves, but that's not what we're talking about here.
法律职业的存在是因为人们缺乏相互仲裁的能力，但这不是我们在这里讨论的。
We're not talking about people bringing therapists or lawyers to really help mediators.
我们并不是在谈论人们请治疗师或律师来真正帮助调解员。
We're talking about just people going to the authorities or online and trying to create some drama.
我们谈论的只是人们去找当局或上网并试图制造一些戏剧。
For what?
为了什么？
To what end?
为了什么目的？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
I think in some ways, to some extent, that's high-conflict parents who see everything in all-or-nothing terms, see their kids as offended by other kids, or they're protecting their children.
我认为在某种程度上，在某种程度上，这是高度冲突的父母，他们以全有或全无的方式看待一切，认为自己的孩子被其他孩子冒犯了，或者他们在保护自己的孩子。
And I am concerned about it, and I also agree it isn't just social media.
我对此感到担忧，而且我也同意这不仅仅是社交媒体。
In many ways, I've been watching this since families got smaller.
从很多方面来说，自从家庭规模变小以来，我就一直在关注这一点。
So, I remember growing up, most families had several kids.
所以，我记得在我成长的过程中，大多数家庭都有几个孩子。
The divorces I do now often have one or two kids, and that's been true in many ways since the 1970s, and a lot of it has to do with birth control.
我现在离婚的人通常只有一两个孩子，自 20 世纪 70 年代以来在很多方面都是如此，其中很大一部分与节育有关。
So, don't just blame social media, also blame birth control, that when people could decide how large a family they have, they decide to have smaller families.
因此，不要只责怪社交媒体，也不要责怪节育措施，当人们可以决定自己的家庭规模时，他们就会决定拥有较小的家庭。
So, birth control pills came out in the '60s and the '70s.
因此，避孕药在20世纪60年代和70年代问世。
Suddenly, we started noticing people are having two kids.
突然，我们开始注意到人们有两个孩子。
And by the '80s, '90s, 2000s, a lot of people have one kid.
到了80年代、90年代、2000年代，很多人都有一个孩子。
My most high-conflict divorce cases have one kid because it's hard to share one kid.
我最常发生冲突的离婚案件都是只有一个孩子，因为很难分享一个孩子。
It's a little bit easier to share two kids.
分享两个孩子会容易一些。
It's a lot easier to share four kids.
分享四个孩子要容易得多。
It's like, "You can have them for the weekend.
就像，“你可以在周末享用它们。
I'm not going to fight with you about that.
我不会为此与你争吵。
Please take them." And the small family, and this is, I think, structurally a lot, the small family structure is feeding parents becoming enmeshed with their kids, some parents.
请收下它们。”小家庭，我认为，这在结构上是很多的，小家庭结构正在让父母与他们的孩子、一些父母纠缠在一起。
And so their kids become their partners, especially in these high-conflict divorces.
因此，他们的孩子成为了他们的伴侣，尤其是在这些高度冲突的离婚中。
Now, Dad's a bad guy, Mom's a bad woman, and the child, especially often the oldest child, now is my best friend, my kind of junior partner in the world.
现在，爸爸是个坏人，妈妈是个坏女人，而孩子，尤其是最大的孩子，现在是我最好的朋友，我在世界上的初级伙伴。
And that's where you see a lot of, you start getting alienated kids.
这就是你看到很多孩子开始疏远的地方。
Now they hate Dad and Mom's perfect, or they hate Mom and Dad's perfect.
现在他们讨厌爸爸妈妈的完美，或者说他们讨厌爸爸妈妈的完美。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, parental estrangement is growing-
唉，父母的隔阂越来越大了——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like ...
像...
crazy as a phenomenon.
疯狂作为一种现象。
We're heading towards the holidays in a few weeks and months, and this is going to come up.
几周或几个月后我们就要迎来假期了，这个问题将会出现。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I actually did an Instagram Live with a really skilled therapist named Matthias Barker, who specializes in, among other things, parental estrangement.
事实上，我和一位非常熟练的治疗师马蒂亚斯·巴克(Matthias Barker)一起在 Instagram 上进行了直播，他的专长是父母疏远等问题。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's so common now.
现在这种情况很常见了。
Kids just deciding, "I'm done with my parents."
孩子们只是决定：“我和父母受够了。”
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
And it's partly the culture is fulfilling that.
文化在一定程度上实现了这一点。
That we're now seeing everything in opposing terms, all or nothing terms, et cetera.
我们现在以对立的方式看待一切，全有或全无，等等。
And the big message I want to get across with this, with all parents and kids is, it's a question of skills, that the kids aren't growing up with the skills to manage the nuances.
我想向所有父母和孩子传达的重要信息是，这是一个技能问题，孩子们在成长过程中不具备管理细微差别的技能。
And so we teach a lot of our skills, and we teach parents, teach these to your kids in divorce.
因此，我们教了很多技能，我们教父母，教离婚时的孩子。
Flexible thinking.
思维灵活。
Teach them flexible thinking.
教他们灵活的思维。
Teach them manage emotions.
教他们管理情绪。
Teach them to moderate their behavior.
教导他们节制自己的行为。
Teach them to check themselves.
教他们检查自己。
"Wait a minute, am I doing something here?" Rather than always you.
“等一下，我在这里做什么？”而不是永远都是你。
And we developed a method, we call it New Ways for Families, which was designed for high-conflict divorce cases, for both parents to learn these skills and practice, either with a therapist or a coach, or just watching online and typing in answers, to practice these four.
我们开发了一种方法，我们称之为“家庭新方法”，专为高度冲突的离婚案件而设计，让父母双方学习这些技能并进行练习，或者与治疗师或教练一起，或者只是在线观看并输入答案，以练习这四种技能。
We call these the four big skills for life.
我们称之为生活四大技能。
And this is, I think, what parents need to teach their kids is, "You can solve that problem.
我认为，父母需要教给孩子的是：“你可以解决这个问题。
Tell me what happened.
告诉我发生了什么事。
Okay, let's talk about what you could say to Johnny." And we teach skills we call EAR statements, empathy, attention, and respect.
好吧，我们来谈谈你能对约翰尼说些什么。”我们教授我们称之为 EAR 陈述、同理心、关注和尊重的技能。
A statement that shows that.
一份声明表明了这一点。
And so we teach parents, teach your child, "Your best friend who just broke up with you might be feeling hurt about something.
因此，我们教导父母，教导你的孩子，“刚刚与你分手的最好的朋友可能会因为某件事而感到受伤。
Maybe something they said.
也许他们说了什么。
What can you do?" So we encourage kids to help their kids manage the situation, and we encourage them to manage their relationship with the other parent.
你能做什么？”因此，我们鼓励孩子们帮助他们的孩子处理这种情况，我们鼓励他们处理与另一方父母的关系。
They come back from a visitation or access from a weekend, let's say, with dad, and child says, "Dad didn't look at my drawing.
比方说，他们周末拜访或拜访爸爸回来，孩子说：“爸爸没有看我的画。
I drew a picture, and dad didn't look at my drawing." High-conflict parent says, "Oh, your dad's a jerk.
我画了一幅画，爸爸却没有看我的画。”高度冲突的父母会说：“哦，你爸爸是个混蛋。
I always hated that about him." A reasonable parent says, "Oh, that's sad.
我一直讨厌他这一点。”一位通情达理的父母会说：“噢，这太可悲了。
Well, you know what?
嗯，你知道吗？
Next time, if he doesn't look at the picture right away, maybe wait an hour and then show him the picture again.
下次，如果他没有立即看照片，也许等一个小时，然后再给他看照片。
Maybe he got busy," maybe this or that.
也许他很忙，”也许这个或那个。
Teach your child to manage the relationship, even with the other parent.
教你的孩子处理好与父母另一方的关系。
And those parents don't have high-conflict divorces.
这些父母并没有发生高度冲突的离婚。
High-conflict divorces have the other.
高冲突离婚还有另一个。
"Your dad's a jerk.
“你爸爸是个混蛋。
Forget about him.
忘记他吧。
He'll never pay attention to you." And that's when you see parents estranged or alienated, or the kids alienated from the parents.
他永远不会注意你。”那时你就会看到父母疏远或疏远，或者孩子与父母疏远。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you think that with increasing number of siblings, kids learn how to work things out among themselves?
所以你认为随着兄弟姐妹数量的增加，孩子们会学会如何解决彼此之间的问题？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
That's another big part of it, is you have to find out how to share.
这是它的另一个重要部分，就是你必须找出如何分享。
So I had three siblings, and we grew up, and it's fascinating-
所以我有三个兄弟姐妹，我们长大了，这很有趣-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're one of three, or you had three others?
你是三个人之一，还是你还有另外三个人？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
I'm one of four, so I have three others.
我是四个人之一，所以我还有另外三个人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
That's a good size kit, yeah.
这是一个很好的尺寸套件，是的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
A brother, two sisters.
一个兄弟，两个姐妹。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
So four.
那么四个。
And what's fascinating for me, and I think it helped shape my personality and approach to life, is we grew up without television.
对我来说最着迷的是，我认为这有助于塑造我的个性和生活方式，我们是在没有电视的情况下长大的。
We didn't have something to watch after school.
放学后我们没有什么可看的。
We had to deal with each other.
我们必须互相应对。
So, we might play kickball in the backyard, or we might read, or something or other, but we had to learn conflict resolution with each other.
所以，我们可能会在后院踢球，或者我们可能会读书，或者其他什么，但我们必须学会解决彼此之间的冲突。
And our parents were like, "You go talk to your brother, Bill.
我们的父母就像是，“你去和你的兄弟谈谈，比尔。
I don't have time to hear your complaint."
我没时间听你的抱怨。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And so structurally, it's shocking going from that to doing people's divorces with one or two children.
因此，从结构上来说，从这一点到人们带着一两个孩子离婚是令人震惊的。
And even two is better than just one, because they do learn to share.
即使是两个人也比只有一个人好，因为他们确实学会了分享。
But parents feel so guilty today.
但今天父母感到很内疚。
And our culture is really not fair to parents, I think.
我认为我们的文化对父母来说确实不公平。
To know that, teach your child ways to deal with it themselves.
要知道这一点，请教您的孩子自己处理问题的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll say, I have one sibling.
我会说，我有一个兄弟姐妹。
We get along terrifically well.
我们相处得非常好。
We're exceedingly close.
我们非常接近。
But I can recall when we were kids, if we were getting into the scrap, my mom or dad would say, "Just sort it out among yourselves.
但我记得当我们还是孩子的时候，如果我们陷入困境，我的妈妈或爸爸会说：“你们自己解决吧。
Just don't get any blood on the carpet."
只是不要让地毯上沾上任何血迹。”
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was like that.
就是这样。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then again, my mom's from New Jersey, and so it's like a different style, right?
但话又说回来，我妈妈来自新泽西，所以这就像一种不同的风格，对吧？
Anyone from New Jersey will understand that was a joke.
来自新泽西州的任何人都会明白这是一个笑话。
But the point being that we learned pretty quickly how to sort things out.
但关键是我们很快就学会了如何解决问题。
My sister and I have had a few conflicts over the years, but we get along terrifically well.
这些年来，我和姐姐有过一些矛盾，但我们相处得很好。
We vacation together for our birthdays every year.
我们每年生日都会一起度假。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But both of us had a lot of friends in the neighborhood.
但我们俩在附近都有很多朋友。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I grew up in a neighborhood with a lot of boys my age.
我在一个有很多同龄男孩的社区长大。
She grew up in a neighborhood with a lot of girls her age.
她在一个有很多同龄女孩的社区长大。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I quickly learned in that big pack of boys, and then I entered sports and got involved in things where it was big packs of boys, that's just how it worked out.
所以我很快就在那一大群男孩中学习了，然后我进入了体育运动并参与了有一大群男孩的事情，事情就是这样。
Eventually young men and then men.
最终是年轻人，然后是男人。
That you couldn't say certain things, or it was going to mean trouble.
有些事情不能说，否则就会有麻烦。
You could-
你可以-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah, you'd get punched in the face if you say that to me.
是的，如果你对我这么说，你的脸就会被打。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
But nowadays, that would be considered like, "Oh, goodness." And obviously not a proponent for violence, but I probably learned at 14 that there were certain things you didn't say to friends, or you'd get into the scrap with them.
但如今，这会被认为是“哦，天哪。”显然我不支持暴力，但我可能在 14 岁的时候就知道，有些事情你不能对朋友说，否则你会和他们发生冲突。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you'd remain friends.
然后你们就仍然是朋友。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so we arbitrated among each other, but also just how to share.
所以我们互相仲裁，但也只是如何分享。
I don't recommend this, because...
我不推荐这个，因为...
Well, whatever.
好吧，无论如何。
We used to do these dirt clod wars where you throw dirt at each other's heads.
我们曾经进行过这种土块战争，你往对方头上扔土。
And occasionally someone would throw a rock and cut some kid.
偶尔有人会扔石头并割伤一些孩子。
But that kid who threw the rock would get in trouble-
但那个扔石头的孩子会惹上麻烦——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with us.
和我们一起。
It's not like we'd turn him in to his parents.
我们不会把他交给他的父母。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You just kind of knew, like he plays dirty, and then he wouldn't play dirty again.
你只是知道，就像他玩肮脏的游戏一样，然后他就不会再玩肮脏的游戏了。
Or if he did, then he kind of knew it.
或者如果他知道了，那么他就知道了。
There was just sort of an understanding of how people sorted out in groups.
人们只是对人们如何分组有一定的了解。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this stuff hearkens back to primitive circuitry that's present in all old world primates, right?
这些东西让人回想起所有旧世界灵长类动物中都存在的原始电路，对吗？
Chimpanzees in particular.
尤其是黑猩猩。
I always tell people, if you want a really good watch and you want to learn about human behavior, watch "Chimp Empire," the Netflix series.
我总是告诉人们，如果你想要一部真正好的手表并且想要了解人类行为，请观看 Netflix 剧集《黑猩猩帝国》。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's the core circuitry of the primate brain in action.
因为它是灵长类动物大脑运作的核心电路。
How people team up, how they cooperate, how they then, all the human behaviors pretty much are there except the technology development.
人们如何组队，如何合作，然后如何，除了技术发展之外，所有人类行为几乎都在那里。
Those chimps aren't building rockets and electric cars, but they're engaging in all the sorts of behaviors, both hierarchical and non-hierarchical, romantic-
这些黑猩猩并不是在制造火箭和电动汽车，但它们却在从事各种各样的行为，包括等级制的和非等级制的、浪漫的——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and professional, so to speak.
可以这么说，并且专业。
Chimps have professions, too.
黑猩猩也有职业。
To bring about cooperative and non-cooperative behavior and sort it out.
产生合作和不合作行为并加以分类。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's fascinating.
这很有趣。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And the chimps are our closest relative, I think, right?
我认为黑猩猩是我们最近的亲戚，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, as far as I know.
是的，据我所知。
I have friends who are really into the genomics of all this stuff, so I want to be careful.
我有一些朋友非常热衷于所有这些东西的基因组学，所以我要小心。
But I believe so.
但我相信是这样的。
They are old world primates.
它们是旧世界的灵长类动物。
We are old world primates.
我们是旧世界的灵长类动物。
So there's a common lineage there for sure.
所以肯定有一个共同的血统。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
But I want to really reinforce what you're saying is about the community of learning and kids growing up in the community of learning.
但我想真正强调你所说的关于学习社区和在学习社区中成长的孩子。
And I think it plays a role with bullies, because what happens is the community of kids figures out who's bullies and confronts them with their behavior.
我认为这对欺凌者很重要，因为孩子们会找出谁是欺凌者，并用他们的行为来对抗他们。
And people ask me, "Well, are adult bullies," because my book is about adult bullies, "were they bullies as kids?" And I'll say, it seems to be pretty universally they were as kids.
人们问我，“嗯，是成人欺凌者吗”，因为我的书是关于成人欺凌者的，“他们小时候欺负人吗？”我想说，这似乎是他们小时候的普遍现象。
But most kids try bullying at least once, and they grow out of it because they get feedback.
但大多数孩子至少尝试过一次欺凌行为，他们会因为得到反馈而不再受欺凌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
They learn, "That's not going to work.
他们了解到：“那是行不通的。
You're not going to have friends.
你不会有朋友的。
I'm not going to be around." So bullies learn to either change their behavior or to live on the fringe of the group if they don't change their behavior.
我不会在附近。”因此，欺凌者要么学会改变自己的行为，要么如果不改变自己的行为，就会生活在群体的边缘。
And so part of why we're seeing more adult bullies today, I think, is because they used to be on the fringe because, or they learned how to get along, but if they're on the fringe because nobody liked them and they didn't change their behavior.
因此，我认为，我们今天看到更多成年欺凌者的部分原因是，他们曾经处于边缘，因为，或者他们学会了如何相处，但如果他们处于边缘，是因为没有人喜欢他们，而且他们没有改变自己的行为。
What we're seeing today is bullies are finding each other, and this is one of the negatives of social media, I think.
我们今天看到的是恶霸们互相寻找，我认为这是社交媒体的负面影响之一。
And I agree there's a lot of good things, but this is one of the surprising things when I researched my book.
我同意有很多好东西，但这是我研究我的书时令人惊讶的事情之一。
Bullies are finding a group for themselves, and instead of the group teaching them not to be a bully, the group reinforces being a bully, says, "You were justified in doing that." And one of the shocking things is to find that school shooters have a support system online.
恶霸们正在为自己寻找一个团体，而这个团体并没有教导他们不要成为恶霸，而是强化了他们的恶霸行为，并说：“你这样做是有道理的。”令人震惊的事情之一是发现校园枪击案的凶手有一个在线支持系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
That they seem to, some of the research says they always have a social media group.
一些研究表明，他们似乎总是有一个社交媒体团体。
They have peers that they're trying to somewhat impress, and that may actually egg them on.
他们试图给同龄人留下深刻印象，而这实际上可能会怂恿他们。
And that if they track down, they find these folks have, and I think they should look for that, find out who they've been talking to, who they communicate with.
如果他们进行追踪，他们会发现这些人有，我认为他们应该寻找这一点，找出他们一直在与谁交谈，与谁沟通。
And so what I think we're seeing is bullies are reinforcing their bad behavior rather than social pressure for them to learn good behavior.
因此，我认为我们看到的是，欺凌者正在强化他们的不良行为，而不是社会压力让他们学习良好的行为。
Which is for me, I've done a lot of group therapy.
对于我来说，我已经做了很多团体治疗。
I've treated people that go to Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, and the group reinforces and teaches them good behavior.
我曾治疗过去戒酒互诫协会和戒毒互诫协会的人，这些团体会强化并教导他们良好的行为。
But bullies are finding other bullies and reinforcing their bad behavior, and that's an issue we have to address, especially with young men, is we have to get on top of that and redirect them into pro-social activities.
但欺凌者正在寻找其他欺凌者并强化他们的不良行为，这是我们必须解决的一个问题，特别是对于年轻人来说，我们必须克服这一点并将他们引导到亲社会活动中。
And most people don't realize that.
大多数人没有意识到这一点。
I didn't realize that.
我没有意识到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, that comes as a real surprise to me, as well.
不，这也让我感到非常惊讶。
Are there female bullies and male bullies online, or is it more typical that there are groups of male bullies online?
网上是否存在女性欺凌者和男性欺凌者，或者更典型的是存在一群男性欺凌者？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
I haven't heard about female bullies finding each other.
我还没有听说过女恶霸互相寻找对方的事。
Well, actually, I should take that back, and this gets into a sensitive area about personality disorders.
好吧，实际上，我应该收回这句话，这涉及到人格障碍的敏感领域。
But borderline personality disorder is one of the more treatable personality disorders, and people become aware that they have this disorder a lot from internet information.
但边缘性人格障碍是更容易治疗的人格障碍之一，人们通过互联网信息了解到自己患有这种疾病。
But what seems to happen, there's a couple stages for them.
但看起来会发生什么，他们有几个阶段。
They become aware before they change their behavior, and like DBT, dialectical behavior therapy, is a really good treatment for that.
他们在改变行为之前就会意识到，像 DBT 一样，辩证行为疗法是一种非常好的治疗方法。
But therapists, and my wife was a DBT therapist, said that they become aware of it before they change their behavior.
但治疗师（我的妻子是一名 DBT 治疗师）表示，他们在改变行为之前就会意识到这一点。
So they do self-sabotaging things even though they shouldn't.
所以他们会做一些自我破坏的事情，尽管他们不应该这样做。
"I know I shouldn't do this, but..." And then finally, they learn to change their behavior.
“我知道我不应该这样做，但是……”最后，他们学会了改变自己的行为。
Well, some people are discovering they're borderline and finding other people online and reinforcing their borderline view of the world.
嗯，有些人发现自己处于边缘状态，并在网上寻找其他人，从而强化了他们对世界的边缘看法。
There's evil people and good people, and occasionally they write reviews of my books and say how awful a person I am because I talk about personality disorders, even though I say, "Don't identify anybody," and I believe personality disorders, in most cases, could be helped if they're open to that.
有坏人也有好人，偶尔他们会写我的书评，说我是一个多么糟糕的人，因为我谈论人格障碍，尽管我说，“不要指认任何人”，而且我相信，在大多数情况下，如果他们对此持开放态度，人格障碍可能会得到帮助。
So I think there's some degree of, say, female people with that personality finding each other and reinforcing that behavior.
所以我认为，在某种程度上，具有这种个性的女性会找到彼此并强化这种行为。
But what I read was, and I cite it in my book in the I'm trying to remember.
但我读到的是，我在我的书中引用了它，我正在努力记住。
I don't remember which chapter, but that some researcher at a university said, "Look for their social media connections," and you'll find that there was a reinforcement of this behavior rather than people saying, "Hey, you can't do that.
我不记得是哪一章，但一所大学的一些研究人员说，“寻找他们的社交媒体联系”，你会发现这种行为得到了强化，而不是人们说，“嘿，你不能这样做。
You've got to cut it out."
你必须把它剪掉。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the best pieces of advice a colleague ever gave me was when I started teaching in the university to undergraduates.
当我开始在大学教本科生时，一位同事给了我最好的建议之一。
This was prior to my arriving at Stanford, where I am now.
这是在我到达斯坦福大学之前，也就是我现在所在的地方。
I had this big class, and this colleague, who's a very esteemed neuroscientist, but also trained as a psychiatrist, he's an MD, he said, "Just remember the statistics on various psychiatric and personality disorders.
我上了一堂大课，这位同事是一位非常受人尊敬的神经科学家，但也接受过精神病学家培训，他是一名医学博士，他说，“只要记住各种精神疾病和人格障碍的统计数据即可。
You've got 1% of the population is schizophrenic.
1% 的人口患有精神分裂症。
You've got 10% at any time that's probably experiencing major depression.
任何时候都有 10% 的人可能正在经历重度抑郁症。
You've got borderline." And he said, "So when you look out on your classroom, just understand that it's a not necessarily representative population, but that those challenges," he posed in the right way, he was patient-oriented, "those challenges-
你已经有边界了。”他说，“所以，当你看看你的教室时，你就会明白，这不一定是具有代表性的人群，但这些挑战，”他以正确的方式提出，他以病人为导向，“这些挑战——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are present in that population." I mention this now because it's something to keep in mind anytime one goes onto social media and reads comments.
存在于该人群中。”我现在提到这一点是因为每当人们进入社交媒体并阅读评论时都应该牢记这一点。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have to run those comments through the filter of what we know-
你必须通过我们所知道的过滤器来运行这些评论 -
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about the frequency of those challenges for people.
关于人们面临这些挑战的频率。
Which is not to say that every negative comment is coming from somebody that's borderline or-
这并不是说每条负面评论都来自边缘人或-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sociopathic, but there's a high probability that if somebody-
反社会的，但很有可能如果有人——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Higher incidence
发病率较高
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that if somebody is continuously doing that, especially in the blame game type scenario, that's what's going on there.
如果有人持续这样做，特别是在指责游戏类型的场景中，那就是正在发生的事情。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Something I want to fit in here, and that is that we need to understand that people with personality disorders didn't choose to have them.
我想在这里补充一点，那就是我们需要明白，患有人格障碍的人并不是自己选择的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And so I have a lot of compassion for people like that.
所以我对这样的人充满同情心。
So I have a lot of students over the years, and they write reflective journals, and occasionally they put in their journal, "I've been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder." And I remember this one woman said, "So when you talked about borderline personality disorder, it was a little uncomfortable for me, but I found it helpful." And she was actually one of the better students in the class.
所以多年来我有很多学生，他们写反思日记，偶尔他们会在日记中写下：“我被诊断出患有边缘性人格障碍。”我记得一位女士说：“所以当你谈到边缘性人格障碍时，我有点不舒服，但我发现它很有帮助。”她实际上是班上最好的学生之一。
And so she had that level of awareness, but she was still working on herself to manage the emotional rollercoaster and such.
所以她有这种程度的意识，但她仍在努力控制自己的情绪过山车等。
And so what's important to me is some people with borderline personality disorder may be angry with me because I talk about it, because they're early stage with this.
所以对我来说重要的是，一些患有边缘性人格障碍的人可能会因为我谈论它而对我生气，因为他们还处于早期阶段。
But other people say, "Thank you, Bill.
但其他人却说：“谢谢你，比尔。
That was helpful." And so there's a range there.
这很有帮助。”所以那里有一个范围。
But I also want to say three basic reasons I think people develop personality disorders.
但我还想说出我认为人们出现人格障碍的三个基本原因。
The first is genetic tendencies, and various researchers say like 20% to 80% may be the genetic tendency, depending on the person.
首先是遗传倾向，不同的研究人员表示，20%到80%可能是遗传倾向，因人而异。
That early childhood, first five years of life, maybe attachment difficulties may be a driving factor, but also cultural environment.
那个童年早期，生命的前五年，也许依恋困难可能是一个驱动因素，但也有文化环境。
A researcher in San Diego wrote "The Narcissism Epidemic," and she says from her research, that the decade you're born in influences your personality development as much as your family.
圣地亚哥的一位研究人员写了《自恋流行病》，她从她的研究中说，你出生的十年对你的个性发展的影响与你的家庭一样大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fascinating.
令人着迷。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
I don't agree with that because she's not a therapist and looked at the mental health.
我不同意这一点，因为她不是治疗师，关注的是心理健康。
She looked at big surveys, college students especially.
她研究了大型调查，尤其是大学生。
But I think that's more significant than we realize and more significant than I used to think.
但我认为这比我们意识到的更重要，也比我以前认为的更重要。
And so part of what you're saying is today's culture is reinforcing not taking responsibility, whereas in the past you had to solve problems yourself.
所以你所说的部分内容是，今天的文化正在强化不承担责任，而在过去你必须自己解决问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On the positive side-
从积极的一面来看——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Good.
很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
always good too.
也总是好的。
It seems that even though family structures have changed quite a lot-
看来，虽然家庭结构发生了很大的变化——
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even though culture is changing quite a lot, there's this wonderful feature of social media and the internet now, what we're doing right now, which is the opportunity for experts like yourself to come on and educate.
尽管文化正在发生很大变化，但社交媒体和互联网现在有一个奇妙的功能，我们现在正在做的事情，这为像您这样的专家提供了接受教育的机会。
And I think that as we started off talking about, it's probably about 90% of people do not fall into this high conflict personality category.
我认为，正如我们开始讨论的那样，大约 90% 的人可能不属于这种高度冲突的性格类别。
And what we're talking about, what you're educating us on, is how to interact with this 10% in a way that brings about more functionality for everybody, more effective professional, personal, familial interactions for everyone.
我们所讨论的，也就是你们教育我们的，是如何与这 10% 的人进行互动，为每个人带来更多的功能，为每个人带来更有效的专业、个人、家庭互动。
It's not about just ostracizing those with challenges.
这不仅仅是排斥那些面临挑战的人。
So keeping with that, what should most people do if they are feeling frustrated with someone that they feel...
因此，保持这一点，如果大多数人对他们认为的某人感到沮丧，他们应该怎么做……
Well, for instance, the 80% of your problems come from 20% of people.
举例来说，80% 的问题来自 20% 的人。
In this case, I guess we're saying, 90% of problems come from these 10% of people, but really it behooves us all to try and figure out how best to interact with others.
在这种情况下，我想我们是说，90% 的问题来自这 10% 的人，但实际上我们所有人都应该尝试找出如何最好地与他人互动。
And so you've spelled out a number of ways that we can do that today.
您已经阐述了我们今天可以做到这一点的多种方法。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you were to highlight, I never want to pressure, but highlight one or two things to just keep in mind as one moves through the world.
如果你要强调的话，我不想施加压力，而是强调一两件事，让人们在走遍世界时牢记在心。
The web tool seems especially effective.
该网络工具似乎特别有效。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there anything else that you recommend that we just hold in mind as we navigate forward?
您还有什么建议我们在前进时要牢记的吗？
Because it's quite a landscape out there.
因为那里真是一道风景。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yeah.
是的。
Several things, and I can be brief with each of them.
Several things, and I can be brief with each of them.
First, there's what I call the four forget about its, is forget about trying to give the person insight into how they're behaving.
首先，我称之为“四个忘记”，即忘记试图让人们深入了解他们的行为方式。
That blows up the person.
那就把人气炸了。
Just like I said, don't blame them for you ending the relationship.
就像我说的，不要因为你结束这段关系而责怪他们。
So just forget about giving them insight.
所以忘记给他们提供洞察力吧。
Instead, talk about what we can do now.
相反，谈谈我们现在能做什么。
Talk about options.
谈论选项。
Don't go inward with them, go outward with them.
不要和他们一起向内走，要和他们一起向外走。
So when you go inward, you escalate their defensiveness.
因此，当你向内走时，你就会加剧他们的防御。
So don't try to give them insight into themselves.
所以不要试图让他们了解自己。
And a lot of people say, "How can I make him see that what he's doing is so wrong?" Or, "How can I make her understand that she's creating the problem we're trying to solve?" Just forget about that.
很多人说：“我怎样才能让他意识到他所做的事情是错误的？”或者，“我怎样才能让她明白，我们正在努力解决的问题是她造成的？”忘记那件事吧。
Talk about, "Okay, here's what our options are.
谈论，“好吧，这就是我们的选择。
Let's talk about what to do." Second is, don't emphasize the past.
我们来谈谈该怎么做吧。”其次，不要强调过去。
And people argue forever with high-conflict people about the past, and you never resolve the past with a high-conflict person.
And people argue forever with high-conflict people about the past, and you never resolve the past with a high-conflict person.
And I'll tell you in a minute why that may be.
我稍后会告诉你为什么会这样。
Focus on what to do now and the future.
专注于现在和未来要做的事情。
Future focus, not past focus.
未来的焦点，而不是过去的焦点。
Maybe you need some information to understand a problem, but then emphasize the future.
也许您需要一些信息来理解某个问题，然后强调未来。
The third is, don't focus on emotions.
第三是，不要关注情绪。
And especially don't yell at them, don't burst into tears, don't tell them how frustrating they are, all of that.
特别是不要对他们大喊大叫，不要大哭起来，不要告诉他们他们是多么令人沮丧，所有这些。
And this is, what I'm going to tell you now is a theory that I hope someone figures out, and that is, people with personality disorders and high-conflict personalities don't seem to go through the five stages of the grieving and healing process: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, sadness, and acceptance.
这就是，我现在要告诉你的是一个我希望有人能弄清楚的理论，那就是，患有人格障碍和高冲突性格的人似乎不会经历悲伤和治愈过程的五个阶段：否认、愤怒、讨价还价、抑郁、悲伤和接受。
They seem to get stuck at denial and anger.
他们似乎陷入了否认和愤怒之中。
So what happens is they don't resolve things.
所以发生的事情是他们没有解决问题。
They don't, quote, "get over things." They don't get over the divorce.
他们不会“克服一切”。他们还没有走出离婚的阴影。
They don't get over the job loss.
他们没有从失业的阴影中走出来。
They don't get over having to sell their house because they couldn't pay the mortgage.
他们无法忍受因为无力支付抵押贷款而不得不卖掉房子的痛苦。
They don't experience the normal human healing and grieving process.
他们没有经历正常的人类治愈和悲伤过程。
So they're stuck, and so a lot of situations with them turn to anger.
So they're stuck, and so a lot of situations with them turn to anger.
They're angry, but they're not resolved.
他们很生气，但没有解决。
So high-conflict people are constantly talking about the past and how aggrieved they are.
So high-conflict people are constantly talking about the past and how aggrieved they are.
“They shouldn't have done that to me.
“他们不应该那样对我。
I was right to have done this." And people start noting, when I say that, students in my class say, "Oh, yeah, that's what I see." They keep repeating themselves, and they go to as many people as they can and tell the story.
我这样做是对的。”人们开始注意到，当我这么说时，班上的学生会说：“哦，是的，这就是我所看到的。”他们不断地重复自己，并且向尽可能多的人讲述这个故事。
I believe they're trying to grieve and heal, but they don't have the mechanism, and I don't know exactly why.
I believe they're trying to grieve and heal, but they don't have the mechanism, and I don't know exactly why.
So I'm hoping someday neuroscience will figure out what connection is missing, and can we give people that so that they can grieve and heal?
所以我希望有一天神经科学能够找出缺失的联系，我们能否为人们提供这种联系，以便他们能够悲伤和治愈？
Well, what that means is if you focus on emotions, you're focusing on an area that's unresolved and has a lot of hurt.
好吧，这意味着如果你专注于情绪，你就会专注于一个尚未解决且受到很大伤害的领域。
And so if you say, "Well, how do you feel about that?" They almost always say, "I feel terrible." I suggest not saying, "How you doing today?" Because the answer I get is, "Terrible.
因此，如果你说：“那么，你对此有何感想？”他们几乎总是说：“我感觉很糟糕。”我建议不要说“你今天过得怎么样？”因为我得到的答案是：“太糟糕了。
You know what she did yesterday.
你知道她昨天做了什么。
You know what he did last week." So instead, do small talk, do it about anything except about how are you feeling today.
你知道他上周做了什么。” So instead, do small talk, do it about anything except about how are you feeling today.
So don't ask how you're feeling.
所以不要问你感觉如何。
Focus on thinking and doing.
专注于思考和行动。
And an example I teach lawyers and mediators is don't say, "How do you feel about that proposal?" Say, "What do you think about that?
我教给律师和调解员的一个例子是，不要说：“你对该提议有何看法？”说：“你对此有何看法？
Could you picture doing that?
你能想象这样做吗？
How could you do that?
你怎么能这么做？
How could that work for you?" Because if you focus, how do you feel?
这对你来说怎么可能有用呢？”因为如果你集中注意力，你感觉如何？
I feel insulted.
我感觉受到了侮辱。
I feel abandoned.
我感觉被抛弃了。
And then they drown in that, and next thing you know, you've lost them.
然后他们就被淹没了，接下来你就会知道，你就失去了他们。
So avoid emotions.
所以要避免情绪化。
Don't focus on emotions, but acknowledge emotions.
Don't focus on emotions, but acknowledge emotions.
Say, "I can see your frustration.
说：“我可以看到你的沮丧。
Now, here's how I can help you today." The fourth is don't use names, don't label people.
现在，我今天可以为您提供帮助。”第四是不使用名字，不给人贴标签。
Don't say, "You're a high-conflict person." And lawyers do that to motivate their clients.
不要说：“你是一个容易发生冲突的人。”律师这样做是为了激励他们的客户。
It doesn't work.
这不起作用。
Don't say, "You have a personality disorder." You may be wrong, and that never motivates anybody.
不要说：“你有人格障碍。”你可能错了，但这永远不会激励任何人。
So that's the four forget about its.
所以这就是四忘其事。
So that's key stuff for people to avoid.
所以这是人们要避免的关键事情。
So that was a long answer, but when you're ready, I have four simple tips for things to do.
So that was a long answer, but when you're ready, I have four simple tips for things to do.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was a great answer.
这是一个很好的答案。
Would love to hear the four simple tips for people to pay attention to.
很想听听四个简单的提示供人们注意。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Okay.
好的。
I'm so glad you asked that question.
我很高兴你问这个问题。
So we have what I call the CARS method, and we've actually trademarked this CARS method.
所以我们有了我所说的 CARS 方法，并且我们实际上已经为这种 CARS 方法注册了商标。
Connecting, Analyzing, Responding, and Setting limits.
连接、分析、响应和设置限制。
First is connect with the person.
首先是与人的联系。
So if someone's angry with you, or you're trying to help somebody with their problem, is connect with them by giving them a statement that shows empathy, attention, and/or respect.
因此，如果有人对你生气，或者你试图帮助别人解决他们的问题，请通过向他们表达同情、关注和/或尊重的声明来与他们联系。
"I can see how hard this is.
“我知道这有多难。
I see your disappointment.
我看到你的失望。
I hear your frustration.
我听到了你的沮丧。
I can understand." By saying I can, I'm showing I see them as an equal rather than looking down on them.
我能理解。” By saying I can, I'm showing I see them as an equal rather than looking down on them.
So that's the empathy rather than sympathy.
所以这与其说是同情，不如说是同理心。
Pay attention.
注意。
Say, "I'll pay attention.
说：“我会注意的。
Tell me more.
告诉我更多。
I want to understand your situation." And listen some.
我想了解一下你的情况。”并听一些。
And so what I see all the time is people say, it's like, "Oh, good, because I'm going to listen to them.
And so what I see all the time is people say, it's like, "Oh, good, because I'm going to listen to them.
They don't have to fight to get my attention." And high-conflict people often are fighting to get attention because they've turned everybody off.
他们不必为了引起我的注意而奋斗。” And high-conflict people often are fighting to get attention because they've turned everybody off.
And that's why I teach lawyers and therapists that.
这就是为什么我教律师和治疗师这一点。
They're going to come to you as much as anything else to get your attention.
They're going to come to you as much as anything else to get your attention.
So let them tell their story, listen to them, acknowledge the emotion.
So let them tell their story, listen to them, acknowledge the emotion.
So empathy, attention, and respect.
所以同情、关注和尊重。
Find something you respect about them.
找到你尊重他们的一些东西。
You respect the kind of work they do.
你尊重他们所做的工作。
You respect their relationship with their son or daughter, or you respect their commitment to resolving this dispute.
You respect their relationship with their son or daughter, or you respect their commitment to resolving this dispute.
So use those words.
所以用这些词吧。
And what's fascinating is I teach this to people who I consult with, and then they come back and say, "I did that, and it really worked.
And what's fascinating is I teach this to people who I consult with, and then they come back and say, "I did that, and it really worked.
The person calmed down." I had one woman who said, "My boss was giving me a hard time, and so I'd run into my office to try not to interact with her." And I said, "Next time," especially like Monday morning or something, "is go up to her and say, 'How was your weekend?' Or say, 'I appreciated the presentation you gave last week.' Give her some empathy, attention, and/or respect." You don't have to do all three of these.
那人就平静下来了。”一位女士对我说：“我的老板让我很为难，所以我会跑进办公室，尽量不与她互动。” And I said, "Next time," especially like Monday morning or something, "is go up to her and say, 'How was your weekend?'或者说，“我很欣赏你上周的演讲。”给她一些同理心、关注和/或尊重。”您不必执行所有这三项操作。
Just any one of these often calms the relationship.
只要其中任何一项都可以使关系平静下来。
And I remember checking back with this woman a month later, and she says, "Guess what, Bill?
我记得一个月后我再次与这位女士联系，她说：“你猜怎么着，比尔？
Now I'm her favorite employee.
现在我是她最喜欢的员工。
But she's picking on somebody else, so I gave somebody else your book." But the idea is to connect with people.
但她挑衅别人，所以我把你的书给了别人。”但我们的想法是与人联系。
So empathy, attention, and respect, and ear statements, we call it, and people say they really remember that because you can use that with anybody, anywhere, even with your kids.
我们称之为同理心、关注、尊重和倾听陈述，人们说他们真的记得这一点，因为你可以在任何地方的任何人身上使用它，甚至是你的孩子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Genuine respect, right?
真正的尊重，对吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Genuine.
正品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not puffing them up.
你没有让他们膨胀。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
This all has to be honest.
这一切都必须诚实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not puffing them up.
你没有让他们膨胀。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Yes.
是的。
Think about that.
想想看。
Now, if you don't respect them and you don't have empathy for them, tell them you'll pay attention and listen.
现在，如果您不尊重他们并且对他们没有同理心，请告诉他们您会注意并倾听。
And often, you'll start developing some empathy or respect for them.
通常，你会开始对他们产生一些同理心或尊重。
But you can always pay attention and listen.
但你可以随时注意并倾听。
So that's connecting.
这样就连接起来了。
The second area, and these aren't exactly steps, but these are four areas high-conflict people have difficulty.
第二个领域，这些并不完全是步骤，但这是高度冲突的人遇到困难的四个领域。
The second is emotions kind of cloud their thinking, so we want to help them think.
第二个是情绪会影响他们的思考，所以我们想帮助他们思考。
So you want to move to analyzing.
所以你想转向分析。
Give them a way to think.
给他们一种思考方式。
So you're kind of calming the emotions, and now you're saying, "Let's think about this." So present problems as a choice.
所以你在某种程度上平静了情绪，现在你说：“让我们考虑一下这个问题。”因此，提出问题作为一种选择。
"You could do this now or do this tomorrow." Or, "Here's the options I see.
“你可以现在做，也可以明天做。”或者，“这是我看到的选项。
There's three ways you could approach this problem." So you're getting people thinking about the problem rather than reacting.
您可以通过三种方法来解决这个问题。”所以你让人们思考问题而不是做出反应。
And when you give a choice, it kind of forces them into logical problem-solving.
当你做出选择时，这会迫使他们用逻辑来解决问题。
So one way you can do this is, especially if you have a professional relationship, like employer-employee, therapist-client, stuff like that, is have them write a list.
因此，你可以做到这一点的一种方法是，让他们写一份清单，特别是如果你有职业关系，比如雇主-雇员、治疗师-客户等。
They're talking, they're saying, "This is wrong, and that's wrong, and that's wrong." You say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa.
他们在谈论，他们在说：“这是错误的，那是错误的，那是错误的。”你说：“哇，哇，哇。
Write a list of these problems so I can get a clearer picture." When you write a list, you calm down.
把这些问题写下来，这样我就能更清楚地了解情况。”当你写下清单时，你就会平静下来。
And I've had this over and over again.
我已经一遍又一遍地经历过这样的事情。
Angry people, when they're writing a list, calm down.
愤怒的人在写清单时冷静下来。
They start thinking about it.
他们开始思考这个问题。
I've done this with a doctor once, and he was having trouble with the nurses, and it was like, "They're doing everything wrong." All right.
我曾经和一位医生做过一次这样的事，他和护士之间发生了麻烦，就像是，“他们做的一切都是错的。”好的。
Write a list of all the things they're doing wrong, and pretty soon, you start thinking, there's this other thing they do, but it's not so bad, actually.
写下他们做错的所有事情的清单，很快，你开始思考，他们还做了另一件事，但实际上并没有那么糟糕。
And I want them to do this on the left-hand side of the page, because on the right-hand page side, we're going to start looking at what are possible solutions.
我希望他们在页面的左侧执行此操作，因为在页面的右侧，我们将开始寻找可能的解决方案。
And you really calm people down.
你真的能让人们平静下来。
I've done this as a mediator.
我作为调解人做了这件事。
I've had both people, okay, I want you to write two lists.
这两个人我都有过，好吧，我想让你写两个清单。
Like business partners.
就像商业伙伴一样。
Now, say you're trying to decide whether to split up or keep the business partnership.
现在，假设您正在尝试决定是拆分还是保留业务合作伙伴关系。
So I want you both to write a list.
所以我希望你们俩都写一个清单。
What you would do if you split up, wind down the partnership, the steps you'd have to take, and another list, what the steps would be if you could make it work between you.
如果你们分手了，你会怎么做，结束合作关系，你必须采取的步骤，以及另一个清单，如果你能让你们之间的关系顺利的话，你会采取什么步骤。
So let's meet in a week, and we'll look at your list.
那么我们一周后见面吧，我们会看看你的清单。
Come back a week later, they say, "You know what?
一周后回来，他们说：“你知道吗？
We both wrote our lists.
我们都写了我们的清单。
We immediately called each other and realized we should terminate the partnership, but we have one last big project we want to do together.
我们立即互相打电话，意识到我们应该终止合作关系，但我们还有最后一个大项目要一起做。
And we realize now we can go our separate ways in peace.
我们现在意识到我们可以和平地分道扬镳了。
We really have different goals.
我们确实有不同的目标。
It's not her fault." This was two women who worked together.
这不是她的错。”这是两个一起工作的女人。
And so writing a list helps.
所以写一个清单很有帮助。
This is all under analyzing, the A of the CARS method.
这一切都在分析中，即 CARS 方法的 A。
Having the person make a proposal.
让此人提出建议。
Say, "Make me a proposal." I tell managers, as soon as you can, tell your employees that now that I'm your manager, whenever you bring me a problem, and I want you to bring me problems when they're small, because conflicts that are small are much easier to resolve.
说：“给我一个建议。”我告诉经理们，尽快告诉你的员工，现在我是你的经理，每当你给我带来问题时，我希望你在问题很小的时候给我带来问题，因为小冲突更容易解决。
Always bring a solution to the problem.
总是提出解决问题的办法。
I want to hear your proposed solution because you know the problem better than I do.
我想听听您提出的解决方案，因为您比我更了解这个问题。
You're getting them to think.
你让他们思考。
So high-conflict people, I believe, have a bandwidth for problem-solving, and some are brilliant heads of companies, inventors, all that stuff.
因此，我相信，高度冲突的人有解决问题的能力，有些人是公司的杰出负责人、发明家等等。
They got a big bandwidth for conflict, but they also have a bandwidth for problem-solving, and you want to aim at that and bring that out.
他们有很大的空间来解决冲突，但他们也有解决问题的空间，你想要瞄准这一目标并将其实现。
So that's analyzing.
所以这就是分析。
R is for responding.
R是响应。
High-conflict people, because they blame so much, are always saying, "You should've done this.
高度冲突的人，因为他们责备太多，总是说：“你应该这样做。
You didn't do that." Our tendency is to argue with high-conflict people, and that's a forget about it.
你没有那样做。”我们倾向于与高度冲突的人争论，但我们忘记了这一点。
You're trying to give them insight, it's not going to work.
你试图给他们洞察力，但这是行不通的。
So instead, give them what we call a BIFF response.
因此，请给他们我们所说的 BIFF 响应。
That's brief, informative, just straight information.
这是简短的、内容丰富的、直接的信息。
Don't tell them, "You're wrong." Just tell them what the information is.
不要告诉他们：“你错了。”只需告诉他们信息是什么即可。
And do it in a friendly manner, and have it be firm, have it end the discussion.
并以友好的方式进行，并使其坚定，结束讨论。
Most commonly, BIFF responses are in writing, and we teach this as an email method.
最常见的是，BIFF 回复是书面形式，我们通过电子邮件方法进行教学。
And we estimate there's about a million people doing BIFF now, because we taught it to about half a million people, professionals and individuals.
我们估计现在有大约一百万人在参加 BIFF，因为我们向大约 50 万人、专业人士和个人教授了它。
We've got four little BIFF books.
我们有四本 BIFF 小书。
We've got videos.
我们有视频。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's brief, informative, friendly.
所以它简短、信息丰富、友好。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And firm.
并且坚定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Firm.
坚定。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
And those four things.
还有这四件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Friendly is immaterial?
友善不重要吗？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Well, a touch of friendliness.
嗯，有一点友善。
So what I say, like someone writes to you and say, "You're doing everything wrong." And you write back and you say, "Thank you for telling me your concerns.
所以我所说的，就像有人写信给你说：“你做的一切都是错的。”然后你回信说：“谢谢你告诉我你的担忧。
Here's some information you may not..." Say someone tells me, "Bill, your methods are never going to work." And I get instantly defensive.
这里有一些你可能不知道的信息……”有人告诉我，“比尔，你的方法永远不会奏效。”我立即采取防御态度。
And so, "Thank you for telling me your concerns.
所以，“谢谢你告诉我你的担忧。
You may not be aware, but about a million people are using this method now.
您可能不知道，现在大约有一百万人正在使用这种方法。
And I wish you well." Something like that.
我祝你一切顺利。”类似的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
So a touch of friendliness.
所以有一丝友善。
Doesn't have to be a lot.
不必很多。
And firm doesn't mean harsh.
坚定并不意味着严厉。
It just means try to end the hostile conversation.
这只是意味着尝试结束敌对的谈话。
So don't respond to their distortions, maybe even, when they say, "You've done this," or misinformation or hostility.
因此，不要回应他们的歪曲，甚至当他们说“你已经做到了”、错误信息或敌意时。
Is just give them a BIFF response.
只需给他们一个BIFF回应即可。
And I tell that sometimes to business owners, sometimes public figures, is they might say, like politicians sometimes, terrible things are said about them, and they go, "But they're not true." And they're going to go, "Well, I'm going to ignore that because no one will believe that." But then people believe it.
我告诉他们，有时对企业主，有时对公众人物，他们可能会说，就像有时政客一样，人们对他们说了可怕的事情，然后他们说，“但它们不是真的。”他们会说：“好吧，我会忽略这一点，因为没有人会相信这一点。”但后来人们就相信了。
A great example, Domino's Pizza about 10 years ago.
一个很好的例子，大约 10 年前的 Domino's Pizza。
This is a great story.
这是一个很棒的故事。
I love it, and I also eat Domino's Pizza.
我喜欢它，我也吃达美乐披萨。
I won't get into the details, but somebody said something that grossed people out, and their stock just dropped.
我不会透露细节，但有人说了一些让人恶心的话，然后他们的股票就下跌了。
Two employees did something to the pizza.
两名员工对披萨做了一些事情。
So first, they were going to ignore that.
所以首先，他们会忽略这一点。
Everyone's going to realize that was a dumb thing two employees did.
每个人都会意识到两名员工所做的事情是愚蠢的。
Well, their stock dropped, like 10% or something like that.
嗯，他们的股票下跌了 10% 之类的。
So two days later, the head of Domino's Pizza puts out a 90-second video, and it gets spread around.
于是两天后，达美乐披萨的负责人发布了一段90秒的视频，并被广泛传播。
And what he says is, "Two former employees did this gross thing, and that doesn't represent us.
他说的是，“两名前雇员做了这件恶心的事，这并不代表我们。
And most important to us is our customers.
对我们来说最重要的是我们的客户。
We're totally dedicated to you.
我们全心全意为您服务。
This is never going to happen again.
这种事永远不会再发生了。
We've done everything to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." So they bounced right back.
我们所做的一切都是为了废话、废话、废话、废话、废话。”所以他们马上反弹了。
And in my mind, 90-second video.
在我看来，是 90 秒的视频。
Didn't do a 20-minute explanation of how we do this and that.
没有对我们如何做这做那做20分钟的解释。
Just 90-second video.
只是90秒的视频。
Head of the company put it out there, bounced right back.
公司负责人把它放在那里，立即反弹。
And to me, that was a BIFF response, even though he never heard of it.
对我来说，这是一个非常直接的回应，尽管他从未听说过。
Brief, informative, friendly, and firm.
简短、信息丰富、友好且坚定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's CARS.
这就是汽车。
C-A-R-
C-A-R-
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
That's R.
那是R。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
That's the responding.
这就是回应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's S?
什么是S？
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
The S is setting limits.
S 正在设定限制。
And this may be the most important with high-conflict people.
对于高度冲突的人来说，这可能是最重要的。
Because one of their biggest problems is they don't stop themselves.
因为他们最大的问题之一就是他们无法阻止自己。
They keep going in areas where most people stop themselves.
他们在大多数人停下来的地方继续前进。
They keep talking.
他们一直在说话。
They talk a lot.
他们聊了很多。
They create a problem and keep creating the problem.
他们制造问题并不断制造问题。
They don't stop.
他们不会停止。
And so people around them have to stop them.
所以他们周围的人必须阻止他们。
And we're not used to stopping other people's behavior.
我们也不习惯阻止别人的行为。
Most people manage themselves.
大多数人都自我管理。
And part of writing my books is I believe today that we have more high-conflict behavior, and everyone needs to learn skills to set limits on bullies, on high-conflict people's behavior.
我写书的一部分是我相信今天我们有更多的高冲突行为，每个人都需要学习技能来限制欺凌者和高冲突者的行为。
It's all about behavior.
这都是关于行为的。
They're not bad people, but they don't have the self-restraint.
They're not bad people, but they don't have the self-restraint.
So setting limits, and key things here, don't blame them, don't blame yourself.
所以设定限制和关键的事情在这里，不要责怪他们，不要责怪自己。
Say, "There's a policy, there's a rule, there's a law.
Say, "There's a policy, there's a rule, there's a law.
How it looks to people is do this instead of doing that." So that behavior.
在人们看来，做这个而不是做那个。”所以这样的行为。
"And if you keep doing that behavior, here's what the consequence is." So I have a method I call SLIC.
“如果你继续这样做，后果就是这样的。”所以我有一个称为 SLIC 的方法。
So everything I've got initials.
所以我的一切都有缩写。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You got a lot of acronyms.
You got a lot of acronyms.
That's all right.
没关系。
Scientists have acronyms.
Scientists have acronyms.
Military science, and apparently- ...
军事科学，显然——
Bill Eddy.
比尔·艾迪.
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
High-conflict methods.
高冲突方法。
So SLIC is setting limits and imposing consequences.
因此，SLIC 正在设定限制并施加后果。
So with high-conflict people, you might set the limit.
因此，对于高度冲突的人，你可以设定限制。
I'll give an example as a lawyer.
I'll give an example as a lawyer.
I represented a woman, victim of domestic violence.
我代表一名妇女，家庭暴力的受害者。
Her ex-husband to be didn't have a lawyer.
Her ex-husband to be didn't have a lawyer.
So that means he's allowed to talk to me.
这意味着他可以和我说话。
I have to talk to him, negotiate, solve problems.
I have to talk to him, negotiate, solve problems.
So he calls me up and he says, "We've got to solve this problem.
所以他打电话给我说：“我们必须解决这个问题。
You tell that blankety blank, blank wife of mine." I said, "Hold on, you can't talk about my client that way." He said, "I'll talk about her any way I want to.
You tell that blankety blank, blank wife of mine."我说：“等等，你不能这样谈论我的客户。” He said, "I'll talk about her any way I want to.
She's a blankety blank, blank, or whatever." So he didn't respect my limit at all.
她是一片空白，一片空白，或者别的什么。”所以他根本不尊重我的限制。
So then I said, "If you keep talking like that, I'm going to hang up." And so it's up to you.
然后我说：“如果你再这样说话，我就挂电话了。”所以这取决于你。
He says, "I'll talk about her any way I want," keeps talking like that.
他说，“我会以任何我想要的方式谈论她，”一直这样说话。
I say, "Okay, you've chosen for me to hang up.
I say, "Okay, you've chosen for me to hang up.
I'm hanging up now.
我现在挂了。
Call me when you're ready to be civil." So end the call.
Call me when you're ready to be civil."于是结束通话。
Next morning, he calls me back.
Next morning, he calls me back.
He says, "Mr. Eddy, we have to solve this problem.
他说：“艾迪先生，我们必须解决这个问题。
My blankety blank blank wife..." And I say, "Hang on.
My blankety blank blank wife..." And I say, "Hang on.
Remember, I'm going to hang up if you talk like that." He says, "Oh, no, no, no, don't hang up.
记住，你再这样说话我就挂电话了。” He says, "Oh, no, no, no, don't hang up.
We have to solve this problem.
我们必须解决这个问题。
I'll try not to say those words." And he doesn't say those words.
I'll try not to say those words."他没有说这些话。
We get to address the problem.
We get to address the problem.
So the consequence is what stopped him, not the limit.
所以阻止他的是结果，而不是限制。
And I think it's a brain thing that they're so absorbed in the emotions of the moment that they can't picture that their behavior has a consequence.
我认为这是大脑的问题，他们太专注于当下的情绪，以至于无法想象自己的行为会产生后果。
So if the people around them point out there's a consequence if you do that, it's kind of a jolt to them.
So if the people around them point out there's a consequence if you do that, it's kind of a jolt to them.
"Oh, I don't want that consequence." And so with high-conflict people, you often have to tell them the consequence when you set the limit and be ready to impose the consequence.
"Oh, I don't want that consequence."因此，对于高度冲突的人，当你设定限制并准备好施加后果时，你通常必须告诉他们后果。
So that's setting limits, imposing consequences.
这就是设定限制，施加后果。
They have to go together with high-conflict people.
They have to go together with high-conflict people.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it, and I know that those listening and watching really appreciate this.
我喜欢它，我知道那些聆听和观看的人真的很欣赏这一点。
These are incredibly valuable tools.
这些都是非常有价值的工具。
I can say from my own life, and I know observing the experiences of others and what people have shared with me, that—here I have to be careful because I don't want to place blame.
我可以从我自己的生活中说，而且我知道观察他人的经历以及人们与我分享的内容，我必须小心，因为我不想责怪。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let me phrase this correctly, that the ability to navigate interactions with high-conflict personalities well can lead to a dramatic improvement in people's lives, both for the non-high-conflict personalities and the high-conflict personalities.
让我正确地表达一下，良好地驾驭与高冲突人格的互动的能力可以使人们的生活得到显着改善，无论是对于非高冲突人格还是高冲突人格。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that a failure to do that does exactly the opposite.
如果不这样做，就会适得其反。
So look, I really want to thank you for doing the work that you do as a lawyer, as a therapist, the research that you've done.
So look, I really want to thank you for doing the work that you do as a lawyer, as a therapist, the research that you've done.
You're incredibly well-researched and thorough.
You're incredibly well-researched and thorough.
You sent me papers in advance of this, in addition to having written all these books that we'll provide links to in the show note captions.
You sent me papers in advance of this, in addition to having written all these books that we'll provide links to in the show note captions.
I've read several of them, but I plan to read the others as well.
I've read several of them, but I plan to read the others as well.
You have a book specifically on relationships.
你有一本专门关于人际关系的书。
You have books on bullies.
You have books on bullies.
You have a book about five types of people that can ruin your life, and several others as well.
You have a book about five types of people that can ruin your life, and several others as well.
So we'll put links to those, as well as some other resources related to your work.
因此，我们将添加这些资源的链接以及与您的工作相关的其他一些资源。
And also just want to thank you for being a contributor to public education.
And also just want to thank you for being a contributor to public education.
That's what this podcast is.
That's what this podcast is.
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People listen to this podcast in hopes of gleaning information that they can really apply and that they can pass on to others, and you're doing incredible work.
人们收听这个播客是希望收集他们可以真正应用并传递给其他人的信息，而你正在做令人难以置信的工作。
You're also teaching in the university system later today, so- ...
You're also teaching in the university system later today, so- ...
you're quite busy, and we're deeply appreciative that you took the time to come educate us.
您很忙，我们非常感谢您抽出时间来教育我们。
So on behalf of myself and everyone listening and watching, I just want to extend a deep gratitude.
所以我谨代表我自己以及所有聆听和观看的人致以深深的谢意。
Thank you.
谢谢。
You're trying to make the world a better place, and you are making the world a better place.
你正在努力让世界变得更美好，你也正在让世界变得更美好。
Bill Eddy:
比尔·艾迪：
Thank you so much.
非常感谢。
I appreciate the chance to speak with you and get this out.
I appreciate the chance to speak with you and get this out.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Well, come back again and tell us more about bullies and the rest.
好吧，再回来告诉我们更多关于欺凌者和其他人的事情。
There's a lot more to cover.
There's a lot more to cover.
We'd love to have you back.
我们很乐意让你回来。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Bill Eddy.
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Bill Eddy.
I hope you found it to be as interesting and practically informative as I did.
我希望您能像我一样发现它有趣且内容丰富。
To learn more about Bill Eddy's work and to find links to his various books, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关比尔·艾迪 (Bill Eddy) 作品的更多信息并查找他的各种书籍的链接，请参阅演出注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple, and on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
另外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客，在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评论。
Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我考虑在 Huberman 实验室播客中讨论的主题有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
Again, that's hubermanlab on all social media channels.
同样，这是所有社交媒体渠道上的 hubermanlab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络新闻通讯，我们的神经网络新闻通讯是一份零成本的每月新闻通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及简短的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议。
Those protocol PDFs are on things like neuroplasticity and learning, optimizing dopamine, improving your sleep, deliberate cold exposure, deliberate heat exposure.
这些 PDF 协议涉及神经可塑性和学习、优化多巴胺、改善睡眠、刻意冷暴露、刻意热暴露等内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that describes a template routine that includes cardiovascular training and resistance training with sets and reps, all backed by science, and all of which, again, is completely zero cost.
我们有一个基本的健身协议，描述了一个模板程序，其中包括心血管训练和阻力训练（包括组数和次数），所有这些都有科学支持，而且所有这些都是完全零成本的。
To subscribe, simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab up in the upper right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and provide your email, and I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
要订阅，只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件，我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Bill Eddy.
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Bill Eddy.
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。