Best Ways to Build Better Habits & Break Bad Ones | James Clear

James Clear: Habits are solutions to the recurring problems in our environment.

詹姆斯·克利尔：习惯是我们环境中反复出现的问题的解决方案。

Let's say you get done with a long day of work, and you come back, you're kind of exhausted.

假设你结束了一整天的工作，回来时感觉有点疲惫。

That happens frequently.

这种情况经常发生。

It's a recurring problem that you face.

这是您反复遇到的问题。

How do you solve that problem?

你如何解决这个问题？

One person might solve it by going for a run for 30 minutes, another person might solve it by playing video games for 30 minutes, and another person might solve it by smoking a cigarette.

一个人可能通过跑步30分钟来解决，另一个人可能通过玩30分钟电子游戏来解决，另一个人可能通过抽烟来解决。

They all are trying to solve that same core problem.

他们都在试图解决同样的核心问题。

James Clear: What you find is that you get to be 20 or 25 or 28, and a lot of the solutions that you have to these recurring problems that you face are solutions that you inherited or that you saw modeled by your parents or your friends or just whatever you have interfaced with throughout your short life so far.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你会发现，当你到了 20 岁、25 岁或 28 岁的时候，你所面临的这些反复出现的问题的许多解决方案都是你继承的解决方案，或者你看到的由你的父母、你的朋友模仿的解决方案，或者只是你迄今为止短暂的一生中遇到过的任何解决方案。

As soon as you realize that your solutions may not be the best solution, it's now your responsibility to try to figure out a different way to do it.

一旦您意识到您的解决方案可能不是最佳解决方案，您现在就有责任尝试找出不同的方法来实现它。

Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is James Clear.

今天我的客人是詹姆斯·克莱尔。

James Clear is the author of "Atomic Habits" and one of the world's foremost experts on how to build rock-solid habits that better your physical and mental health, work, and relationships.

詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）是《原子习惯》一书的作者，也是世界上最重要的专家之一，研究如何建立坚如磐石的习惯，以改善你的身心健康、工作和人际关系。

Andrew Huberman: Today, we discuss how to build a habit and how to break bad habits as fast and durably as possible.

安德鲁·休伯曼：今天，我们讨论如何养成习惯以及如何尽可能快速、持久地改掉坏习惯。

You'll notice that today's conversation is a very realistic one, and it's largely devoid of cliché acronyms such as make it specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, and time-bound.

您会注意到，今天的对话非常现实，并且很大程度上没有陈词滥调的缩略语，例如使其具体、可衡量、可实现、相关和有时限。

There is some of that discussion, and acronyms are useful, but as you'll learn today from James, the real-world examples of how to make and break habits are what really stick with you and that you can apply.

其中有一些讨论，缩写词很有用，但正如您今天将从詹姆斯那里学到的那样，如何养成和打破习惯的现实世界示例才是真正让您坚持并可以应用的。

Andrew Huberman: No one has spent more time on the data related to habit formation and bad habit breaking than James Clear.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：没有人比詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）花更多的时间在与习惯形成和坏习惯改掉相关的数据上。

Today, you also get to know him as a person and how he implemented what he has learned so effectively, even as the backdrop of his life has shifted to include more, not fewer, work and family responsibilities.

今天，您还将了解他这个人，以及他如何有效地运用所学知识，即使他的生活背景已经发生变化，包括更多而不是更少的工作和家庭责任。

And we all have things that we know we can and should do more of and things that we should do less of.

我们都有我们知道可以而且应该多做的事情，也有我们应该少做的事情。

And we all know that behavioral change starts with a desire to change.

我们都知道，行为改变始于改变的愿望。

Andrew Huberman: But as James Clear explains, it requires a system, one that works for you and that you design, in order for it to really stick.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但正如詹姆斯·克利尔所解释的那样，它需要一个适合你并由你设计的系统，才能真正坚持下去。

Thanks to James' incredible depth of knowledge, generosity, and clarity of communication, today's conversation about habit formation is filled with useful tools that you can apply to improve your life.

感谢詹姆斯令人难以置信的知识深度、慷慨和清晰的沟通，今天关于习惯形成的对话充满了有用的工具，你可以运用它们来改善你的生活。

So if you have a habit or perhaps many habits that you're hoping to form, or if you have bad habits that you want to break, not just for the new year, but at any point, today's conversation is absolutely for you.

因此，如果你有一个习惯，或者可能有很多你希望养成的习惯，或者如果你有坏习惯想要改掉，不仅仅是为了新年，而是在任何时候，今天的谈话绝对适合你。

Andrew Huberman: Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

Andrew Huberman：在我们开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。

And now for my discussion with James Clear.

现在我与詹姆斯·克利尔进行讨论。

Andrew Huberman: James Clear, welcome.

安德鲁·休伯曼：詹姆斯·克利尔，欢迎。

James Clear: Hey, thank you so much for having me.

詹姆斯·克利尔：嘿，非常感谢你邀请我。

Andrew Huberman: Your book is everywhere, and now I get to actually meet the person behind it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你的书无处不在，现在我可以真正见到它背后的人了。

So, I'm curious, when people come to you or when they read your book, looking for ways to develop habits or presumably also to end bad habits, is there a common theme?

所以，我很好奇，当人们来找你或读你的书，寻找养成习惯或可能也结束坏习惯的方法时，是否有一个共同的主题？

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: For instance, do most people have difficulty dropping bad habits, building new habits?

安德鲁·休伯曼：例如，大多数人是否很难戒掉坏习惯、养成新习惯？

Are there specific types of habits that people want to build?

人们想要养成哪些特定类型的习惯？

I mean, when you just sort of step back from everything you've heard and read about your book and in interactions with your audience.

我的意思是，当你从你所听到和读到的关于你的书以及与观众互动的一切中退一步时。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Yeah, I think there are some themes.

是的，我认为有一些主题。

Like, there are definitely habits that are very common and broad that range across seems like everybody.

就像，肯定有一些非常常见和广泛的习惯，似乎每个人都一样。

The most common New Year's resolution, for example, is to do some form of exercise, so there's obviously a huge bucket of health and fitness habits that most people, many people, are very interested in.

例如，最常见的新年决心是进行某种形式的锻炼，因此显然有很多健康和健身习惯是大多数人、很多人都非常感兴趣的。

Lots of things like productivity habits at work or creativity habits, writing, music, painting, whatever, things like that.

很多事情，比如工作中的生产力习惯或创造力习惯、写作、音乐、绘画等等。

So there are these big categories.

所以就有了这些大类。

James Clear: I think what's more interesting, though, is to look at what are the themes that help habits stick and help habits fail or cause habits to fail.

詹姆斯·克利尔：不过，我认为更有趣的是看看哪些主题可以帮助习惯坚持、帮助习惯失败或导致习惯失败。

And there are definitely some patterns there which are interesting.

那里肯定有一些有趣的模式。

For example, I was working out the other day, and I was talking to my trainer, and he said, "Yeah, I have this class this morning, and there were eight people signed up, but it was a pretty gross day.

例如，前几天我正在锻炼，我正在和我的教练交谈，他说：“是的，今天早上我有这门课，有八个人报名了，但这是非常糟糕的一天。

It was wet and rainy.

天气又湿又下雨。

It was gray.

它是灰色的。

It was just kind of cold and gross, and only two people came."

天气有点冷、很恶心，而且只有两个人来。”

James Clear: And the interesting thing about that to me is how little of an edge you need to gain an advantage.

詹姆斯·克利尔：对我来说，有趣的是，你只需要很少的优势就能获得优势。

Really, all we're talking about there is, are you cool with being uncomfortable or inconvenienced for 5 to 10 minutes while you're getting ready and getting in your car, and it's raining, and it's kind of gross?

真的，我们谈论的只是，当你准备上车时，下着雨，而且有点恶心，你是否可以忍受 5 到 10 分钟的不舒服或不便？

Once you get to the gym, the workout's the same as it's always been, right?

一旦你到了健身房，锻炼就和以前一样了，对吧？

It's the same as it is in the middle of the summer.

和盛夏的时候是一样的。

James Clear: And so, it's really about that little point of friction at the beginning, and that, I think, if I could pick a single biggest lesson that has come out from all the readers, it is the magic and the importance of starting.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，这实际上是关于一开始的小摩擦点，我想，如果我能从所有读者那里选出一个最大的教训的话，那就是开始的魔力和重要性。

Mastering that 5-minute window or sometimes even that 30-second window of choosing to start and making it easy to start, that I would say is the single biggest theme of habits.

掌握选择开始的 5 分钟窗口，有时甚至是 30 秒的窗口，并使其易于启动，我认为这是习惯的最大主题。

And in fact, a lot of the time, you can boil almost all problems that habits face into two categories.

事实上，很多时候，你几乎可以将习惯面临的所有问题归结为两类。

James Clear: It's either making it easier to get started, so overcoming procrastination, or it's sticking with it.

James Clear：要么让开始变得更容易，从而克服拖延，要么坚持下去。

I did it once or twice, but I'm not consistent.

我曾经做过一两次，但我并不稳定。

But what does it mean to stick with something?

但坚持某件事意味着什么呢？

It almost always just means that you get started each time you try to do it, and so you could ultimately revert it all back to mastering the art of getting started.

它几乎总是意味着你每次尝试去做时都会开始，所以你最终可以将一切恢复到掌握开始的艺术。

And the easier that you can make it to get started, whether it's scaling a habit down, optimizing the environment, coming up with a better strategy, looping other people in, there's all kinds of things you can do.

你越容易开始，无论是减少习惯、优化环境、提出更好的策略、让其他人参与进来，你都可以做各种各样的事情。

James Clear: The more that you can do that, the more likely you are to succeed.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你做得越多，成功的可能性就越大。

Looking back on now "Atomic Habits" sold 25 million copies, I'd say that's maybe the biggest lesson that I have, is that the people who make it easy to get started and who master the art of getting started tend to stick with it and succeed, and the people who make it hard to get started, dream up a big, ambitious plan in their head, try to do too much at once, they set themselves up to fail.

回顾现在《原子习惯》售出的 2500 万册，我想说这可能是我得到的最大的教训，那些让入门变得容易并且掌握入门艺术的人往往会坚持下去并取得成功，而那些让入门变得困难的人，在他们的头脑中梦想一个宏大的、雄心勃勃的计划，试图一次做太多，他们注定会失败。

Andrew Huberman: So in terms of getting started, I imagine trying to create a very thin edge of the wedge, so to speak, so that the on-ramping to something is very, very easy.

Andrew Huberman：因此，就开始而言，我想尝试创建一个非常薄的楔子边缘，可以这么说，这样就可以非常非常容易地进入某事物。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: And I suppose that could be done by a number of different approaches.

Andrew Huberman：我认为这可以通过多种不同的方法来实现。

You can segment out whatever it is, the habit or task that you want to do.

你可以划分出你想要做的任何习惯或任务。

Like you're going to write one word or one sentence or one letter.

就像你要写一个词、一句话或一封信一样。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: There's that approach.

Andrew Huberman：就是这样的方法。

There's also the approach of trying to find the times of day or the environments where the wedge becomes present, as opposed to it being a big step.

还有一种方法是尝试找到一天中出现楔子的时间或环境，而不是迈出一大步。

James Clear: Yep.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？

I suppose there's no one-size-fits-all, but what are some of the ways to, quote unquote, "get started?" Because I think there's something incredible and somewhat depressing about the human brain, where we can know something, we can know it so well that we can just think about it and loop on it and loop on it and watch ourselves fail to do the thing that we're trying to do.

我想没有一刀切的方法，但是有哪些方法可以“开始”呢？因为我认为人类的大脑有一些令人难以置信且有些令人沮丧的东西，我们可以知道一些事情，我们可以非常了解它，以至于我们可以思考它并循环它，循环它，然后看着我们自己无法做我们想做的事情。

It's kind of an incredible flaw of human nature.

这是人性中令人难以置信的缺陷。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And basically what you teach is how to overcome that flaw.

Andrew Huberman：基本上你教的是如何克服这个缺陷。

James Clear: So, a simple question: what are easy ways to get started?

James Clear：那么，一个简单的问题：有哪些简单的入门方法？

In a way, all of "Atomic Habits" is an answer to that question.

在某种程度上，所有“原子习惯”都是这个问题的答案。

Maybe this will be the next two hours is us kind of unpacking this in greater detail.

也许我们将在接下来的两个小时内更详细地解开这个问题。

But from a real high level, there are kind of four things that you want to do if you want to get a habit to stick.

但从真正的高水平来看，如果你想养成一个习惯，你需要做四件事。

So, I call it the four laws of behavior change.

所以，我称之为行为改变四大定律。

But you want to make your habit obvious, so this is about making it visual or easy to see, easy to notice.

但你想让你的习惯显而易见，所以这就是让它变得直观或容易看到、容易注意到。

It doesn't have to be vision, but that's often the sensory perception that you use the most.

它不一定是视觉，但这通常是您最常用的感官知觉。

Make it obvious.

让它变得明显。

James Clear: The second is to make it attractive.

詹姆斯·克利尔：第二是让它有吸引力。

So, the more fun or attractive, or appealing a habit is, the more likely you are to perform it.

因此，一个习惯越有趣、越有吸引力，或者越吸引人，你就越有可能去执行它。

The third thing is you want to make it easy.

第三件事是你想让事情变得简单。

So the easier, more convenient, frictionless.

所以更容易、更方便、更无摩擦。

This can be about scaling your habits down and simplifying, reducing the number of steps.

这可以是缩小你的习惯并简化，减少步骤数量。

And then the fourth thing is you want to make it satisfying.

第四件事是你想让它令人满意。

The more satisfying or enjoyable a habit is, the more you have this feeling of pleasure, reward, or positive emotion associated with it, the more you're going to want to repeat it in the future.

一个习惯越令人满意或令人愉快，你就越能感受到与之相关的快乐、奖励或积极情绪，你就越想在未来重复它。

James Clear: So, those are the four steps.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，这就是四个步骤。

Make it obvious, make it attractive, make it easy, make it satisfying.

让它变得明显、有吸引力、简单、令人满意。

There are many ways to do each of those things, and my approach is not to prescribe, but to empower.

做每件事都有很多方法，我的方法不是规定，而是授权。

I don't really feel like there is one way to build better habits.

我真的不觉得有一种方法可以培养更好的习惯。

There are many ways, and my job is to lay all the tools out on the table and say, "Here.

方法有很多，我的工作就是把所有工具放在桌子上，然后说：“这里。

Here's a full tool kit," and then you can decide, do I use the screwdriver or do I use the wrench or do I use the hammer?

这是完整的工具包，”然后您可以决定，我是使用螺丝刀还是使用扳手还是使用锤子？

Like, what's best for this situation?

比如，在这种情况下什么是最好的？

James Clear: So, just to build on one of those, for example, let's take make it obvious.

詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）：因此，举例来说，我们只是以其中之一为基础，让我们把这一点变得显而易见。

A lot of that's about priming your environment to make the action easy.

其中很大一部分是为了让你的环境变得简单，让行动变得容易。

I think one interesting thing you can do, walk into most of the spaces where you spend your time each day, your office, your living room, your kitchen, and look around and ask yourself, "What behaviors are obvious here?

我认为你可以做一件有趣的事情，走进你每天度过的大部分空间，你的办公室、你的客厅、你的厨房，环顾四周并问自己，“这里有哪些明显的行为？

What behaviors are easy here?

这里哪些行为是容易的？

What is this space designed to encourage?"

这个空间的设计目的是为了鼓励什么？”

James Clear: And you'll often find that it's encouraging the thing that maybe you don't want to do, or it's at least not encouraging the good habit that you say is a priority.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你经常会发现它鼓励你可能不想做的事情，或者至少不鼓励你所说的优先考虑的好习惯。

And so, there are all sorts of steps you can take.

因此，您可以采取各种步骤。

If you want to make it easier to go for a run, set your running shoes and your running clothes out the night before.

如果您想让跑步变得更容易，请在前一天晚上把跑鞋和跑步服放在外面。

I have a couple readers who actually sleep in their running clothes and then just get up, put their shoes on, and get out the door, right?

我有几个读者实际上穿着跑步服睡觉，然后起床，穿上鞋子，然后出门，对吧？

They're trying to make it as obvious and as frictionless as possible.

他们试图使其尽可能明显且无摩擦。

James Clear: If you want to eat the good food or the healthy food, place the nuts on the counter rather than the chips or something like that, right?

詹姆斯·克利尔：如果你想吃美味的食物或健康的食物，请将坚果放在柜台上，而不是薯片或类似的东西，对吧？

It's just like what is the obvious thing that's present?

就像现在明显的东西是什么？

I had one guy who he would go to his music lesson and practice guitar with his instructor each week, and then he would get a bunch of homework to do, these chords and scales and things to practice.

我有一个人，他每周都会去上音乐课，和他的教练一起练习吉他，然后他会做一堆家庭作业，这些和弦、音阶和需要练习的东西。

James Clear: And then he would come home and put his guitar in the guitar case and stick it in the closet, and then he'd go back to practice the next week, and they'd be like, "You aren't doing any of this." And so he bought a little stand and put it on the guitar on the stand in the middle of the living room, and now he passes it 30 times a day.

詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）：然后他会回家，把吉他放在吉他盒里，然后把它放在壁橱里，然后他会在下周回去练习，他们会说，“你什么都没有做。”于是他买了一个小架子，把它放在客厅中间架子上的吉他上，现在他每天经过30次。

And so he's much more likely to pick it up and play it for five minutes.

所以他更有可能拿起它并玩五分钟。

And so there's just like this gradual progression of how can you make the things in your life that you want more of more obvious to you.

因此，就像这个循序渐进的过程一样，你如何才能让生活中你想要的事情对你来说更加明显。

And that is just one of many ways to make starting easier.

这只是让起步变得更容易的众多方法之一。

Andrew Huberman: Glucose is a key player in how our body functions, not just in the long term, but in every moment of our lives.

Andrew Huberman：葡萄糖是我们身体机能的关键角色，不仅从长远来看，而且在我们生命中的每时每刻。

That's because it is the major fuel for our cells, especially our brain cells.

那是因为它是我们细胞，尤其是脑细胞的主要燃料。

Glucose directly impacts our brain function, mood, and energy levels, and it may even affect our levels of tenacity and willpower.

葡萄糖直接影响我们的大脑功能、情绪和能量水平，甚至可能影响我们的坚韧和意志力水平。

This is why I use the continuous glucose monitor from Lingo.

这就是我使用 Lingo 连续血糖监测仪的原因。

I absolutely love it, and I'm thrilled to have them as a sponsor of the podcast.

我非常喜欢它，我很高兴他们成为播客的赞助商。

Andrew Huberman: Lingo helps me track my glucose in real time to see how the foods I eat and the actions I take impact my glucose.

Andrew Huberman：Lingo 帮助我实时跟踪我的血糖，以了解我吃的食物和我采取的行动如何影响我的血糖。

When glucose in your body spikes or crashes, your cognitive and physical performance do, too.

当您体内的葡萄糖激增或崩溃时，您的认知和身体表现也会随之上升或下降。

In fact, large glucose peaks and valleys lead to brain fog, fatigue, irritability, and hunger.

事实上，大的葡萄糖峰值和谷值会导致脑雾、疲劳、烦躁和饥饿。

What you eat, of course, plays a major role in your glucose.

当然，你吃的东西对你的血糖起着重要作用。

Some foods cause sharp spikes and big crashes, and others do not.

有些食物会导致急剧的峰值和严重的崩溃，而另一些则不会。

But not everyone is the same in terms of how they respond to particular foods.

但并不是每个人对特定食物的反应都是一样的。

Andrew Huberman: Seeing your glucose in real time helps you build eating and other habits that support metabolic health, mental clarity, and sustained energy.

Andrew Huberman：实时查看您的血糖可以帮助您养成饮食和其他习惯，从而支持代谢健康、思维清晰和持续精力充沛。

Lingo has helped me to better understand what foods to eat, when to eat, and how things like a brief walk after a meal can help keep my glucose stable and much more.

Lingo 帮助我更好地了解该吃什么食物、何时吃以及饭后短暂散步等活动如何帮助我保持血糖稳定等等。

If you'd like to try Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman podcast listeners in the US 10% off a four-week Lingo plan.

如果您想尝试 Lingo，Lingo 将为美国的 Huberman 播客听众提供为期 4 周的 Lingo 计划 10% 的折扣。

Terms and conditions apply.

条款和条件适用。

Visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information.

请访问 hellolingo.com/huberman 了解更多信息。

Andrew Huberman: The Lingo glucose system is for users 18 and older, not on insulin.

Andrew Huberman：Lingo 葡萄糖系统适用于 18 岁及以上的用户，不适用于胰岛素使用者。

It is not intended for the diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes.

它不适用于诊断疾病，包括糖尿病。

Individual responses may vary.

个人反应可能有所不同。

Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by Wealthfront.

Andrew Huberman：今天的节目也是由 Wealthfront 为我们带来的。

With constant market shifts and chaotic news, it's easy to feel uncertain about where to keep your money.

随着市场的不断变化和混乱的新闻，您很容易不确定将资金存放在哪里。

However, saving and investing does not have to be complicated.

然而，储蓄和投资并不一定很复杂。

There's a solution that can help you take control of your finances while still managing risk, and that's Wealthfront.

有一种解决方案可以帮助您控制财务，同时仍然管理风险，这就是 Wealthfront。

Andrew Huberman: I've trusted Wealthfront with my finances for nearly a decade.

Andrew Huberman：近十年来，我一直信任 Wealthfront 来管理我的财务。

With the Wealthfront cash account, I can earn 3.25% annual percentage yield, or APY, on my cash from program banks.

通过 Wealthfront 现金账户，我可以从计划银行获得 3.25% 的年化收益率 (APY)。

And I know that my money is growing until I'm ready to spend it or invest it.

我知道我的钱会不断增长，直到我准备好花钱或投资为止。

One of the features I love about Wealthfront is that I have access to instant, no-fee withdrawals to eligible accounts 24/7.

我喜欢 Wealthfront 的功能之一是我可以 24/7 即时、免费提款到符合条件的账户。

That means I can move my money where I need it without waiting.

这意味着我可以将资金转移到需要的地方，而无需等待。

Andrew Huberman: And when I'm ready to transition from saving to investing, Wealthfront lets me seamlessly transfer my funds into one of their expert-built portfolios.

Andrew Huberman：当我准备从储蓄过渡到投资时，Wealthfront 可以让我无缝地将我的资金转移到他们专家构建的投资组合之一。

For a limited time, Wealthfront is offering new clients an additional 0.65% boost over the base rate for 3 months, meaning you can get 3.9% variable APY on up to a 150,000 dollars in deposits.

在有限的时间内，Wealthfront 为新客户提供 3 个月内比基本利率额外 0.65% 的提升，这意味着您最多 150,000 美元的存款可以获得 3.9% 的可变年利率。

More than 1 million people already trust Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth with confidence.

超过 100 万人已经信任 Wealthfront 能够满怀信心地储蓄更多、赚取更多收入并建立长期财富。

Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive the boosted APY offer and start earning 3.9% variable APY today.

Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 Wealthfront，请访问 Wealthfront.com/huberman 获取提升 APY 的优惠，并立即开始赚取 3.9% 的可变 APY。

That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started.

请从 Fortunefront.com/huberman 开始。

This is a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.

这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。

Client experiences will vary.

客户体验会有所不同。

Wealthfront brokerage is not a bank.

Wealthfront 经纪公司不是银行。

The base APY is as of December 19th, 2025, and is subject to change.

基本 APY 截至 2025 年 12 月 19 日，并且可能会发生变化。

For more information, please see the episode description.

欲了解更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, environment to me is so critical and so overlooked.

Andrew Huberman：是的，环境对我来说非常重要，但却被忽视了。

I heard it online at one point from a great writer, I won't mention who they are, that it's really important to have a very comfortable chair to write in because writing for long hours is hard on your body, and this kind of thing.

我曾经在网上听到一位伟大的作家说，我不会提及他们是谁，有一把非常舒适的椅子来写作真的很重要，因为长时间写作对你的身体来说很困难，而这种事情。

And then Steven Pressfield, author of "The War of Art," sat in the exact chair you're sitting in right now, and he said, "Oh, no, you want kind of an uncomfortable chair," so it's kind of painful.

然后《艺术之战》的作者史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德坐在你现在坐的椅子上，他说，“哦，不，你想要一把不舒服的椅子”，所以这有点痛苦。

Andrew Huberman: Now, he's a former Marine and wrote a book called "The War of Art" after all, but I sort of veer towards Steven's approach.

安德鲁·休伯曼：现在，他是一名前海军陆战队员，毕竟写了一本名为《艺术之战》的书，但我有点倾向于史蒂文的方法。

Like, if a room is too comfortable, if a couch is too comfortable, it favors lounging, and it favors thinking about things that maybe are fun to think about, but not really getting the work done.

就像，如果房间太舒服，如果沙发太舒服，它就会有利于闲逛，有利于思考那些可能很有趣的事情，但不会真正完成工作。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: Not that you need to sit on a rock or something like that, but some of my best writing and work was done on planes where I got stuck in the middle seat, and I was kind of pissed off about it.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：并不是说你需要坐在岩石或类似的东西上，但我最好的一些写作和工作是在飞机上完成的，当时我被困在中间座位上，我对此有点生气。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And I could use that energy of being kind of pissed off, I'm like, "I'm going to get this done," right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我可以利用那种生气的能量，我想，“我会完成这件事，”对吗？

James Clear: Channel it into this chapter.

James Clear：将其引入本章。

Andrew Huberman: I'm not going to lose-lose by not getting work done.

Andrew Huberman：我不会因为没有完成工作而双输。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Whereas I think had I been in first class and stretched out and everything perfect, then sometimes that perfection lends itself to just kind of leaning into the creature comforts of that.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：虽然我认为如果我在头等舱，舒展身体，一切都很完美，那么有时这种完美会让人倾向于那种物质享受。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

James Clear: Well, first of all, it's a good mental shift by you, right?

詹姆斯·克利尔：嗯，首先，这是你精神上的一个很好的转变，对吧？

Like, take a suboptimal situation, how do I channel this into something I can use?

例如，采取次优的情况，我如何将其转化为我可以使用的东西？

That's a great skill for life.

这是一项受用一生的伟大技能。

People ask me something like this a lot: "What is your writing routine?

人们经常问我这样的问题：“你的写作习惯是什么？

What are your writing habits?

你的写作习惯是什么？

What does it look like?" And the truth, if I'm being honest about it, is I've had tons of different writing routines.

它看起来像什么？”事实上，如果我诚实地说，我有很多不同的写作习惯。

I wrote parts of "Atomic Habits" on my parents' couch when I was visiting them for the holidays.

当我假期拜访父母时，我在他们的沙发上写了《原子习惯》的部分内容。

I wrote parts of it in the passenger seat of a car while we were on a road trip.

当我们在公路旅行时，我在汽车的乘客座位上写下了其中的一部分。

I wrote a lot of it at my desk, but there's no one place where it happened.

我在办公桌上写了很多，但没有一个地方发生过。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: And I think that it also reveals an important truth about habits, which is that there's this kind of implicit assumption that we don't really say, but a lot of people think when they think, "What would it look like to be successful with this habit?" They think, "Well, I would just do it for the rest of my life," is basically what they kind of assume.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我认为这也揭示了关于习惯的一个重要事实，那就是有一种隐含的假设，我们并没有真正说出来，但很多人在思考时会想，“如果养成了这个习惯，会是什么样子？”他们认为，“好吧，我会在余生中这样做”，这基本上就是他们的假设。

And if it changes or they stop doing it, then they kind of feel like that's a failure in some way.

如果事情发生了变化或者他们停止这样做，那么他们就会觉得这在某种程度上是失败的。

I don't think it's like that at all.

我认为根本不是那样的。

James Clear: Habits can have a season, and you have different seasons in your life, and I think one really interesting question to ask is, "What season am I in right now?" And you will find that as your seasons change, your habits often need to change as well.

詹姆斯·克利尔：习惯可以有一个季节，而你的生活中有不同的季节，我认为一个真正有趣的问题是，“我现在处于哪个季节？”你会发现，随着季节的变化，你的习惯也常常需要改变。

So, for example, for the first three years that I wrote, I wrote jamesclear.com, and I published a new article every Monday and Thursday, and they were 2,000-word pieces, took me about 20 hours each on average.

举个例子，我写作的前三年，我写了jamesclear.com，每周一、周四发表一篇新文章，都是2000字的文章，平均每篇花了我大约20个小时。

So that's a 40-hour workweek.

所以每周工作 40 小时。

James Clear: I'm putting in two pieces a week for three years, and that was how I built my audience and got the book deal that eventually became "Atomic Habits." Then I signed the book deal.

詹姆斯·克利尔：三年来，我每周发布两篇文章，这就是我如何建立读者群并获得最终成为《原子习惯》的出书合同的方式。然后我签了书协议。

Well, I don't have capacity now to write those articles, so I had to change my strategy.

好吧，我现在没有能力写那些文章，所以我不得不改变我的策略。

Most of my writing was going into writing the book.

我的大部分写作都是为了写这本书。

I did that for three years.

我这样做了三年。

The book came out, and then now the last five years, I've been writing a newsletter once a week that takes me about two hours instead of 20.

这本书出版了，然后在过去的五年里，我每周写一篇时事通讯，大约需要两个小时，而不是 20 小时。

So it's a much different form, but three million people read that newsletter every week.

所以这是一种非常不同的形式，但每周有 300 万人阅读该新闻通讯。

They get a lot of value out of it.

他们从中获得了很多价值。

James Clear: And I guess my point is, if you look at my writing habit, and you say, "Well, you wrote two articles a week for three years.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我想我的观点是，如果你看看我的写作习惯，你会说：“嗯，三年来你每周写两篇文章。

What happened in the fourth year?" If I would've felt like, "Oh, well, I don't do that anymore, so it's a failure," that seems kind of silly to me.

第四年发生了什么？”如果我会觉得，“哦，好吧，我不再这样做了，所以这是一个失败，”这对我来说似乎有点愚蠢。

I've been writing.

我一直在写。

It's just been changing shape based on the season that I've been in.

它只是根据我所处的季节而改变形状。

And I found that with lots of other habits too.

我发现很多其他习惯也是如此。

My fitness habits have changed a lot over the last 20 years.

过去 20 年来，我的健身习惯发生了很大变化。

I had periods where I was going heavy, like power lifting or Olympic lifting style, and I would train four or five days a week.

我有一段时间会进行大重量训练，比如力量举重或奥林匹克举重风格，我每周会训练四到五天。

I had periods and pockets where I was only lifting twice a week.

我的月经和口袋每周只举重两次。

Now it's four days.

现在已经四天了。

James Clear: It just it shifts depending on the season that you're in.

詹姆斯·克利尔：只是它会根据你所处的季节而变化。

And so I think people need to give themselves more permission for their habits to adjust rather than to feel like, "Well, if I don't stick to this, then I'm not sticking to my habit." I feel like that flexibility is a big component in long-term success.

因此，我认为人们需要给予自己更多的许可来调整自己的习惯，而不是觉得，“好吧，如果我不坚持这个，那么我就没有坚持我的习惯。”我觉得灵活性是长期成功的重要组成部分。

There's this story that mental toughness is something that's like, "I'm going to make it happen no matter what the circumstances," right?

有一个故事说，心理韧性就像是“无论情况如何，我都会让它发生”，对吗？

James Clear: Like, "I'm going to grind and make sure that this is...

詹姆斯·克利尔：就像，“我要努力并确保这是......

I'm going to persevere." And there's a place for that type of thinking, but I think really, most of the time, mental toughness looks more like adaptability.

我会坚持下去。”这种思维是有其用武之地的，但我认为，大多数时候，心理韧性看起来更像是适应性。

Consistency is adaptability.

一致性就是适应性。

Don't have enough time?

时间不够？

Do the short version.

做简短的版本。

Don't have enough energy?

没有足够的能量？

Do the easy version.

做简单的版本。

Find a way to show up and not put up a zero for that day because doing something is almost always infinitely better than doing nothing.

找到一种方法来出现，而不是在那天打零分，因为做某事几乎总是比什么都不做要好得多。

James Clear: And so, eventually, what you get to here is realizing that in a lot of ways, the bad days are more important than the good days.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，最终，你会意识到，在很多方面，糟糕的日子比好日子更重要。

It's actually the bad workouts, the ones where I don't really feel like doing much, or I don't have much time, but I get in there, and I just do a couple sets of squats, and then I'm done in 20 minutes.

这实际上是糟糕的锻炼，那些我真的不想做太多的事情，或者我没有太多时间，但我进去了，我只做了几组深蹲，然后我在 20 分钟内完成了。

That day counts for more because I showed up and I didn't put up a zero than the days when I got a ton of time and do a full workout.

那天比我有大量时间进行全面锻炼的日子更重要，因为我出现了并且没有打零分。

James Clear: And so, people get real excited and amped up about their habits.

詹姆斯·克利尔：因此，人们对自己的习惯感到非常兴奋和兴奋。

They want to come up with this perfect version.

他们想拿出这个完美的版本。

What could I do...

我能做什么...

If I achieve peak performance, what would that look like?

如果我达到巅峰表现，那会是什么样子？

What could I do on my best day?

在我最好的一天里我能做什么？

But instead, I think it's often better to ask what could I stick to even on the bad days?

但相反，我认为最好问一下即使在糟糕的日子里我还能坚持什么？

And that becomes your baseline.

这将成为你的基线。

That's where you start from.

这就是你开始的地方。

And then on the good days, great, you got capacity.

然后在美好的日子里，太好了，你有能力了。

Go ahead and ramp it up.

继续并加大力度。

But what can you stick to even on the bad days, I think, is a good place to start.

但我认为，即使在糟糕的日子里，你还能坚持什么，这是一个很好的起点。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I more and more think that can one of the dangers of, quote-unquote, "optimization," which in my view is also a poorly understood term, I think optimization is optimization for the moment and the day or the hour, not some perfect ideal.

Andrew Huberman：是的，我越来越认为“优化”的危险之一，在我看来，这也是一个不太容易理解的术语，我认为优化是针对当下、一天或一小时的优化，而不是某种完美的理想。

Andrew Huberman: But one of the downsides to the availability of over-the-counter stimulants and energy drinks and tutorials of how to focus many of which I talk about online and elsewhere, is that most people who are in some sort of pursuit, writing or school or otherwise, experience the "perfect flow," quote-unquote, or "groove" of being really in the zone, and then they're always chasing that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但是，非处方兴奋剂和能量饮料的可用性以及如何集中注意力的教程的缺点之一是，大多数人在某种追求、写作、学校或其他方面，体验到“完美的流动”，引用不引用，或真正处于状态的“最佳状态”，然后他们总是追逐它。

And anything that's below that feels like it wasn't worthwhile.

低于这个值的任何事情都感觉不值得。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: But I really like the way that you frame that, getting something in on the days when you're less than optimal or far less than optimal is actually where you change yourself in a way that makes those optimal days more available.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但我真的很喜欢你的框架方式，在你不太理想或远远低于最佳的日子里做点什么，实际上就是你改变自己的方式，让那些最佳的日子变得更容易利用。

That's what I'm hearing: that playing hurt teaches you how to play well under great conditions, or play even better under great conditions.

这就是我所听到的：受伤打球可以教会你如何在良好的条件下打好比赛，或者在良好的条件下打得更好。

James Clear: Consistency enlarges ability, right?

James Clear：一致性可以增强能力，对吧？

And so by being more consistent, you enlarge your capacity to handle more.

因此，通过更加一致，你可以扩大处理更多事情的能力。

You enlarge your ability and broaden your skill set.

您扩大了自己的能力并拓宽了自己的技能。

You build your base of strength to handle the harder thing later.

你建立了自己的力量基础，以应对以后更困难的事情。

To be consistent means you show up on the days when it's not perfect.

保持一致意味着你会在不完美的日子里表现出来。

In many ways, I feel like that's the only place that you gain an edge.

在很多方面，我觉得这是你获得优势的唯一地方。

The easy days, everybody works out on the easy days.

轻松的日子，每个人都在轻松的日子里锻炼。

Everybody does it when they feel good.

每个人在感觉良好时都会这么做。

Everybody does it when they have time and energy and capacity.

每个人只要有时间、精力和能力就会这样做。

James Clear: It's who is doing it when it's not optimal.

詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）：关键是当事情不是最佳的时候是谁在做这件事。

That's the only place that you gain separation.

那是你唯一能够分离的地方。

And so, figuring out ways to show up even when the circumstances aren't ideal, even if it is less than you ultimately hope to do, ends up being a real win.

因此，即使情况不理想，即使比你最终希望的要少，想办法表现出来，最终也会成为真正的胜利。

Andrew Huberman: What you just said, I think, is so, so critical, that people hear that there's a perfect state that they're pursuing, or that it takes 50 days to develop a habit, or 29 days, and we could explore that whole thing as its own discussion.

Andrew Huberman：我认为你刚才所说的非常非常重要，以至于人们听说他们正在追求一种完美的状态，或者需要 50 天或 29 天才能养成一种习惯，我们可以将整个事情作为单独的讨论来探索。

But I think it's so important for people to understand that the consistency piece raises the ceiling.

但我认为让人们了解一致性部分提高了上限非常重要。

I've actually never heard it stated that clearly, and it's great that you presented it that way because that's something that anyone can do, right?

事实上我从来没有听过这么清楚地表述过，很高兴您以这种方式呈现它，因为这是任何人都可以做的事情，对吗？

Andrew Huberman: Anyone can write one sentence per day, and that's not the suggestion, but the consistency piece really does seem to elevate the ceiling on performance and what's possible.

Andrew Huberman：任何人都可以每天写一句话，这不是建议，但一致性部分确实似乎提高了性能和可能性的上限。

I think we've been exposed too much to these concepts of flow, in my opinion.

在我看来，我们已经过多地接触了这些心流概念。

I don't want to knock on Steven Kotler and the beautiful work that he's done, and Csikszentmihalyi, who originated the term.

我不想批评史蒂文·科特勒（Steven Kotler）和他所做的出色工作，以及发明这个术语的奇克森特米哈伊（Csikszentmihalyi）。

I think Kotler and Csikszentmihalyi, I think it's a wonderful literature, and it certainly has its place.

我认为科特勒和奇克森特米哈伊，我认为这是一部精彩的文学作品，它当然有其地位。

Andrew Huberman: But I think people, in their pursuit of flow, look at the grind as failure, and they don't really know what the grind is.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但我认为，人们在追求心流的过程中，将磨难视为失败，而他们并不真正知道磨难是什么。

Is it a hard day where you're doing sets to failure in the gym?

当你在健身房里做几组到力竭的时候，这是否很辛苦？

Is it when you have, quote-unquote, "writer's block?"

是当你有“作家的障碍”时吗？

Andrew Huberman: You've simplified it down to it's just simply showing up over and over again that raises the possibility for flow, raises the possibility for optimal performance, and probably raises the basement on what failure or poor performance is as well, which means you're getting better.

Andrew Huberman：你已经将其简化为它只是简单地一遍又一遍地出现，从而提高了流动的可能性，提高了获得最佳性能的可能性，并且可能还提高了失败或性能不佳的基础，这意味着你正在变得更好。

James Clear: I have this reader.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我有这个读者。

His name's Mitch.

他的名字叫米奇。

I mention him in Atomic Habits.

我在《原子习惯》中提到过他。

When he first started working out, he had this strange little rule for himself where he wasn't allowed to stay at the gym for longer than five minutes.

当他第一次开始锻炼时，他给自己制定了一条奇怪的小规则，不允许他在健身房停留超过五分钟。

So he got in the car, drove to the gym, got out, did half an exercise, and then he'd get in the car, drive back, and go home.

于是他上了车，开车去健身房，下车，做了一半的锻炼，然后上车，开车回来，回家。

And it sounds silly.

这听起来很愚蠢。

You're like, "Clearly, this is not going to get the guy the results that he wants." But if you take a step back, what you realize is he was mastering the art of showing up, right?

你会说，“显然，这不会让这个人得到他想要的结果。”但如果你退后一步，你会发现他正在掌握展示的艺术，对吗？

James Clear: He was becoming the type of person that went to the gym four days a week, even if it was only for five minutes.

詹姆斯·克利尔：他正在成为那种每周去健身房四天的人，即使只去健身房五分钟。

And it's like the inversion of what most people do, which is we sit down and we try to perfect it.

这就像大多数人所做的相反，我们坐下来，努力完善它。

What's the perfect diet plan?

什么是完美的饮食计划？

What's the ideal workout strategy?

理想的锻炼策略是什么？

What's the best sales strategy?

最好的销售策略是什么？

We want to have everything lined up first, and then we take the first step.

我们希望先把一切都安排好，然后再迈出第一步。

But I'm reminded of that, there's that quote from Ed Latimore where he says, "The heaviest weight at the gym is the front door." And there are a lot of things in life that are like that.

但我想起了埃德·拉蒂摩尔（Ed Latimore）的一句话，他说：“健身房最重的重量是前门。”生活中有很多事情都是这样的。

James Clear: The hardest step is the first movement.

James Clear：最难的一步是第一个动作。

And so by mastering the art of showing up, well, now he's in the gym.

因此，通过掌握展示的艺术，现在他在健身房里了。

Now he's in the arena.

现在他在赛场上。

There's all kinds of improvements that you can make.

您可以进行各种改进。

And so he got six weeks in, and he was like, "Well, I'm coming here all the time.

所以他待了六个星期，他说，“好吧，我一直来这里。

I might as well start working out a little bit longer." And I feel like that is such a better place to be than to trying to get it perfect from the start and then feeling like, "Well, if I can't run four days a week, why am I bothering?" "If I can't work out for 45 minutes, then it doesn't matter." But the truth is, it matters every time you show up.

我不妨开始多锻炼一会儿。”我觉得这比从一开始就试图让它完美然后感觉“好吧，如果我不能每周跑四天，我为什么要烦恼呢？”是一个更好的地方。 “如果我不能锻炼 45 分钟，那也没关系。”但事实是，每次出现都很重要。

James Clear: We use the phrase building habits, but in a lot of ways, what we're actually describing is just the process of learning.

James Clear：我们使用“培养习惯”这个词，但在很多方面，我们实际上描述的只是学习的过程。

Your brain is just learning a new behavior.

你的大脑正在学习一种新行为。

And you will get better at anything that you practice, anything.

你会在任何你练习的事情上变得更好。

Now, I'm not saying that if you practice basketball, you can go play in the NBA in six months, or maybe ever.

现在，我并不是说如果你练习篮球，你就可以在六个月内甚至永远进入 NBA 打球。

But you individually will be a better basketball player six months from now than you are today if you practice it each day.

但如果你每天练习，六个月后你个人将会成为比今天更好的篮球运动员。

And every skill that you have was once unknown to you.

而你所拥有的每一项技能都曾经是你所不知道的。

James Clear: When you were born, you did not know how to cut a tomato or play a musical instrument, or even brush your teeth.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当你出生时，你不知道如何切西红柿或弹奏乐器，甚至不知道如何刷牙。

But you know all those things now and many others.

但你现在知道所有这些事情以及许多其他事情。

And so the way that you learn things is by practicing them.

因此，学习事物的方法就是通过实践。

And the way that you learn habits is also by practicing them, even if it's small.

学习习惯的方法也是通过练习，即使是很小的练习。

Andrew Huberman: I think it's so important to view habits through the lens of learning, and therefore neuroplasticity, right?

Andrew Huberman：我认为通过学习的角度来看待习惯非常重要，因此神经可塑性也非常重要，对吧？

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Which I think is a broad term that can mean many...

Andrew Huberman：我认为这是一个广泛的术语，可以意味着很多......

I mean, having a stroke will induce neuroplasticity, but not the kind one wants.

我的意思是，中风会导致神经可塑性，但不是人们想要的那种。

So I guess the precise definition would be, I call it self-directed adaptive plasticity.

所以我想准确的定义是，我称之为自我导向的适应性可塑性。

It's not a real term, but it works for what we're talking about.

这不是一个真正的术语，但它适用于我们正在谈论的内容。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: So I'll just say plasticity for short.

Andrew Huberman：所以我简称为可塑性。

But...

但是...

James Clear: Sorry not to cut you off, I feel like the self-directed piece is an important part there.

詹姆斯·克利尔：很抱歉不能打断你，我觉得自导自演的作品是其中的重要组成部分。

Your brain's learning habits all the time, right?

你的大脑一直都有学习习惯，对吗？

You will learn habits whether you are in control or not, whether you care or not.

无论你是否能控制，无论你是否在乎，你都会养成习惯。

I think that's a good reason to want to know what they are and how they work.

我认为这是想了解它们是什么以及它们如何工作的一个很好的理由。

The real question is not whether you will gain new habits, it's whether you can design them, right?

真正的问题不是你是否会养成新习惯，而是你是否能够设计它们，对吗？

Or be in control of them.

或者控制它们。

Whether it can be self-directed.

是否可以自导自演。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

I mean, maybe it's worth exploring this a little bit because...

我的意思是，也许值得对此进行一些探索，因为......

So, for neuroscientists who learn about plasticity, you learn about developmental plasticity, which existed in all of us when we were kids, and it's just how passive experience shapes us.

因此，对于了解可塑性的神经科学家来说，你会了解到发展可塑性，它在我们所有人小时候就存在，这就是被动经验如何塑造我们的。

And it's very robust up until, they always say, till age 25.

他们总是说，直到 25 岁之前，它都非常强劲。

But about that is when the window closes for multi-language learning without accents becomes much, much more difficult after 15, 20, 25 than it does, say, at 40, 45, or 60.

但问题是，当无口音学习多语言的窗口关闭时，在 15、20、25 岁之后，比在 40、45 或 60 岁时要困难得多。

Some people can do it, but it takes much more effort.

有些人可以做到，但需要付出更多的努力。

So that's passive learning.

这就是被动学习。

Andrew Huberman: But the self-directed piece is interesting because there are sort of two forms of that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但是自导自演的作品很有趣，因为有两种形式。

One form is where it's explorative, you're trying to, I don't know, figure out how to paint or figure out how to...

一种形式是探索性的，你试图，我不知道，弄清楚如何绘画或弄清楚如何......

but you don't really know what the painting is going to be.

但你并不真正知道这幅画会是什么。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: The other is what is called instructional plasticity, and I guess the strict term would be self-directed adaptive instructional plasticity.

Andrew Huberman：另一个是所谓的教学可塑性，我想严格的术语是自我导向的适应性教学可塑性。

This is why it gets to be a kind of mouthful.

这就是为什么它变得有点拗口。

James Clear: Sounds sticky.

詹姆斯·克利尔：听起来很粘。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

But the instructional piece means there's a correct answer.

但指导性的内容意味着有一个正确的答案。

There's a correct answer.

有一个正确答案。

And neuroscientists are familiar with the fact that there's these certain forms of learning where there's a correct answer that the nervous system needs to learn, like how to shoot a free throw from a particular location on a court, for instance.

神经科学家熟悉这样一个事实，即存在某些特定形式的学习，神经系统需要学习正确的答案，例如如何从球场上的特定位置投篮。

How to state a word with the proper enunciation in different language, for instance.

例如，如何用不同的语言以正确的发音说出一个单词。

And so there's a right, and there's a wrong.

所以有对就有错。

Andrew Huberman: And the example of this guy, Mitch, who went to the gym and then left after five minutes, I feel like there's a merge there where he, through some unconscious genius, realized that the right answer was getting in the door and had to teach himself that piece as opposed to the entire workout.

安德鲁·休伯曼：举个例子，米奇，他去了健身房，五分钟后就离开了，我觉得那里有一个融合，他通过一些无意识的天才，意识​​到正确的答案是进门，并且必须自学那部分，而不是整个锻炼。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: So that's just chunking, right?

Andrew Huberman：所以这只是分块，对吧？

But it requires that there's a prerequisite to getting in the gym, and that's just going there in the first place.

但进入健身房有一个先决条件，那就是首先去那里。

And if we're trying to learn how to do an entire workout, it's too much.

如果我们试图学习如何进行整个锻炼，那就太多了。

Or if we're trying to learn how to perform really well, we're really trying to learn 50 or 1,000 things.

或者，如果我们想学习如何表现得非常好，我们实际上是在尝试学习 50 或 1,000 件事。

James Clear: Right.

詹姆斯·克利尔：对。

Andrew Huberman: So this business of chunking, it's so simple on the face of it, but I feel like instructional plasticity says we need to learn the right answers and then stack those.

Andrew Huberman：因此，这种分块业务，表面上看起来很简单，但我觉得教学可塑性表明我们需要学习正确的答案，然后将它们堆叠起来。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And so, I don't think he was crazy.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我不认为他疯了。

I think he was really onto something and really in tune with what the neuroscience says.

我认为他真的很关注某件事，并且非常符合神经科学的说法。

James Clear: People often think they're keeping it simple or making it simple, but they don't realize how many steps are involved.

James Clear：人们常常认为他们保持简单或使其变得简单，但他们没有意识到涉及多少步骤。

Let's take just getting to the gym.

让我们以去健身房为例。

Forget about the workout, but just getting there.

忘记锻炼，只是去那里。

Which gym will you go to?

你会去哪个健身房？

What time are you going to go?

你打算什么时候去？

Are you going before work or after work?

你是上班前去还是下班后去？

Are you stopping by on your way, or is it on your commute?

您是在途中路过，还是在通勤途中经过？

Do you need to drive separately?

需要单独开车吗？

Are you going to bring a water bottle, or do they have water fountains at the gym?

您要带水瓶吗？还是健身房里有饮水机？

James Clear: That alone sounds like a silly thing, but I heard from a reader one time who said, "I always forget my water bottle, and they don't have water fountains there, so I don't feel like going." That's enough friction to prevent somebody from doing the workout, right?

詹姆斯·克利尔：仅此一点听起来就很愚蠢，但有一次我听一位读者说：“我总是忘记带水瓶，而且那里没有饮水机，所以我不想去。”这足以阻止某人进行锻炼，对吗？

There's so many little steps like that.

诸如此类的小步骤还有很多。

And what are you going to wear?

你要穿什么？

Are the clothes clean, or are they in the laundry right now?

衣服干净吗？或者它们现在正在洗衣房里吗？

Like, there's so many things that could prevent it from happening, so just mastering getting started forces you to cross all of those thresholds early on and figure out, how do I get in here consistently week in and week out?

就像，有很多事情可以阻止它发生，所以仅仅掌握入门就迫使你尽早跨越所有这些门槛，并弄清楚，我如何才能每周都持续地进入这里？

James Clear: And then once you got that part licked, then okay, great.

詹姆斯·克利尔：一旦你把那部分搞定了，那就好吧，太棒了。

We can move on to what the actual workout should be.

我们可以继续进行实际的锻炼。

Andrew Huberman: These days, I and many others hear about and talk about this idea that the effort becomes the reward.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这些天，我和许多其他人听到并谈论了“努力即回报”这一想法。

That's sort of the holy grail of all this, right?

这就是这一切的圣杯，对吧？

And I think that can happen.

我认为这可能会发生。

It has sort of masochistic tones to it.

它有一种受虐倾向。

Years ago, I was dating a woman.

几年前，我和一个女人约会。

We're still good friends, and I remember one time she just said to me, she said, "Flow, don't fight."

我们仍然是好朋友，我记得有一次她刚刚对我说，“Flow，别吵架。”

Andrew Huberman: And I was like, "What are you talking about?" And she said, "Everything that you do is you're sort of pushing yourself into doing it even though you really enjoy these activities." And we're talking about work-related activities.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我当时想，“你在说什么？”她说，“你所做的一切都是在强迫自己去做，即使你真的很喜欢这些活动。”我们正在谈论与工作相关的活动。

And I was like, "Oh, so you just flow into everything that you do?" And she's like, "Yeah." She was from Eastern Canada.

我当时想，“哦，所以你只是融入你所做的一切？”她说：“是的。”她来自加拿大东部。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I was like, "Is everyone up there like that?" And she's like, "No, actually," my dad or someone in her family was a fisherman, had to get up early in the morning, go out in the cold.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我当时想，“上面的每个人都是这样吗？”她说，“不，实际上，”我爸爸或她家里的某个人是渔民，必须早上起床，在寒冷中出去。

So she was a hardy person, a very hardy person, and a hard worker.

所以她是一个吃苦耐劳的人，一个非常吃苦耐劳的人，一个努力工作的人。

Just recently finished a graduate degree, in fact.

事实上，最近刚刚完成研究生学位。

And I was like, this flow, don't fight thing is interesting because I feel like across my day, I do wake up, and I'm like, "All right, have to do this, need to..." And these are opportunities that I love.

我当时想，这种流动，不要抗争的事情很有趣，因为我感觉在我的一天中，我确实醒来了，我想，“好吧，必须这样做，需要......”这些都是我喜欢的机会。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: And I've thought to myself, do we only have so much time on the gas pedal?

Andrew Huberman：我心里想，我们踩油门的时间只有这么多吗？

Maybe she's right.

也许她是对的。

Maybe we need to flow through certain parts of our days where we're just kind of in automatic, so that we can fight harder against the things that are really barriers for us.

也许我们需要度过一天中的某些部分，在这些部分中我们只是处于自动状态，这样我们就可以更加努力地对抗那些对我们来说真正构成障碍的事物。

I've been wanting, since I woke up this morning, I'm like, I got to ask James this question.

自从我今天早上醒来以来，我一直想，我必须问詹姆斯这个问题。

Do you think there's a way that we can kind of toggle flow and fight?

你认为有一种方法可以让我们切换流程并进行战斗吗？

James Clear: That is an interesting question.

詹姆斯·克利尔：这是一个有趣的问题。

I have two thoughts.

我有两个想法。

The first thought is, for a long time, I wrestled with this question of, "Do I have to be dissatisfied to be driven?" Is that part of it?

第一个想法是，很长一段时间以来，我一直在思考这个问题：“我必须不满意才能被驱动吗？”这是其中的一部分吗？

Is part of it that I have this vision for where I want to be or what I want to accomplish, and then I look at my current state and I realize there's a gap between where I am and where I want to be?

我对自己想要达到的目标或想要实现的目标有这样的愿景，然后我看看自己目前的状态，意识到我现在的状态和我想要达到的目标之间存在差距，这是否是其中的一部分？

And that dissatisfaction with that gap is what drives you forward.

对这种差距的不满正是你前进的动力。

James Clear: It's the drive to close the gap that gets you to show up and work hard, or take the test, or do the thing, you know?

詹姆斯·克利尔：缩小差距的动力让你努力工作、参加测试或做某事，你知道吗？

And I think, certainly, there are many times in my life when that has been the driving force.

我想，当然，在我的一生中，有很多时候这就是驱动力。

James Clear: But the healthiest response I think I've come up with, or the counterpoint, is imagine that an acorn falls from a tree and manages to take root and starts to grow.

詹姆斯·克利尔：但我认为我想出的最健康的反应，或者说相反，是想象一颗橡子从树上掉下来，并设法生根并开始生长。

At first, it's just this little acorn, then it's a sapling, and then it grows into, eventually, this large, mature oak.

起初，它只是一个小橡子，然后是一棵树苗，最后长成一棵大而成熟的橡树。

And at no point in that process was it berating itself for only being an acorn or for only being a sapling, right?

在这个过程中，它从来没有因为自己只是一颗橡子或一棵树苗而责备自己，对吗？

James Clear: For not being enough yet, for not being big enough, for not having achieved that outcome.

詹姆斯·克利尔：因为还不够，还不够大，还没有取得这样的结果。

Nobody looks at it and thinks, "Oh, what a failure.

没有人看到它后会想：“哦，多么失败啊。

You aren't a full oak tree yet." And yet, despite that there isn't this dissatisfaction going on, it continues to grow.

你还不是一棵完整的橡树。”然而，尽管这种不满并没有发生，但它仍在继续增长。

And I think the answer there is it grows simply because that is what an oak tree does.

我认为答案是它的生长只是因为橡树就是这样做的。

It grows because that is what it is encoded to do.

它会增长，因为这就是它被编码要做的事情。

James Clear: And so I feel like the healthiest version of me just flowing with it, or just stepping into it, is what do I feel like I'm encoded to do?

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以我觉得我最健康的版本就是顺其自然，或者只是踏入其中，我觉得我被编码要做的是什么？

It's almost like I was made for this, you know?

我几乎就是为此而生的，你知道吗？

This is my strength.

这是我的力量。

It lights me up, it makes me feel alive.

它照亮了我，让我感觉自己还活着。

And then I can be quite driven and not feel dissatisfied in the moment.

然后我就会充满动力，不会感到不满意。

So, I think that was kind of the first thing that came to mind.

所以，我认为这是我首先想到的事情。

James Clear: The second piece is I have had this experience where the effort has been the reward, where the work is the win, or however people want to phrase it.

詹姆斯·克利尔：第二点是我有过这样的经历：努力就是回报，工作就是胜利，或者不管人们想怎么说。

Doing the thing is the satisfaction.

做事就是满足。

But rarely do I have that experience right away.

但我很少能立即获得这种体验。

It has come with time.

它随着时间的推移而到来。

So, working out is a very good example for me.

所以，锻炼对我来说是一个很好的例子。

I've been training for 15 or 20 years now, and, yeah, I want all the same things everybody else does, right?

我已经训练了 15 或 20 年了，是的，我想要的东西和其他人一样，对吧？

I want to be healthy.

我想要健康。

You want to look good.

你想看起来不错。

James Clear: You have all these outcomes that you want from working out.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你可以从锻炼中得到你想要的所有这些结果。

But the last couple years, I have started to train more and more just because of how I feel when I work out.

但在过去的几年里，我开始越来越多地训练，只是因为我锻炼时的感觉。

I like how it makes me feel.

我喜欢它给我的感觉。

And now I don't have to wait.

现在我不必等待。

I don't have to wait two years to see how I look in the mirror.

我不必等两年才能看到镜子里的自己是什么样子。

I feel good when I'm doing this set.

当我做这组动作时，我感觉很好。

And so, it becomes more about the experience and liking how I feel when I'm doing it.

因此，更多的是关于体验和喜欢我做这件事时的感受。

In my language, in the "Atomic Habits" language, it's what I call identity-based habits.

用我的语言，用“原子习惯”语言，这就是我所说的基于身份的习惯。

James Clear: Every time that I show up and work out, I am casting a vote for being the type of person who works out, for being an athlete, for being the type of person who doesn't miss workouts.

詹姆斯·克利尔：每次我出现并锻炼时，我都会为自己是一个锻炼的人、一个运动员、一个不缺席锻炼的人投票。

And every time I cast a vote for being that type of person, I feel good about myself.

每次我投票选出这样的人时，我都会对自己感觉良好。

I feel like I'm showing up and being the kind of person I want to be.

我觉得我正在成为我想成为的那种人。

I feel like I'm reinforcing my desired identity.

我觉得我正在强化我想要的身份。

And I think this is one of the...

我认为这是其中之一...

James Clear: It certainly is one of the concepts from "Atomic Habits" that has resonated most with people, which is rather than starting your habits and asking, "What do I wish to achieve?

James Clear：这当然是《原子习惯》中最能引起人们共鸣的概念之一，而不是开始你的习惯并问：“我希望实现什么？

What do I wish to accomplish?" You start by asking, "Who do I wish to become, and how are my habits reinforcing that desired identity?

我希望实现什么目标？”你首先要问：“我想成为谁，我的习惯如何强化这种渴望的身份？

Am I casting votes for being that type of person?" Every action you take is like a vote for the type of person you wish to become.

我是否会因为自己是那种人而投票呢？”你采取的每一个行动都像是在为你想成为的人投票。

James Clear: So, if you sit down and you study for 20 minutes on Tuesday night, you are casting a vote for being studious.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，如果你在周二晚上坐下来学习 20 分钟，那么你就是在为你的勤奋投票。

If you shoot a basketball for an hour outside, you cast a vote for being a basketball player.

如果你在外面打了一个小时的篮球，你就为成为一名篮球运动员投了一票。

And individually, those are small things, and they don't really mean a whole lot in any given moment.

就个人而言，这些都是小事，在任何特定时刻它们都没有真正的意义。

But collectively, if you do it for three months or six months or a year, you cross this invisible threshold at some point where you say, "Yeah, being a basketball player must be a big part of who I am," and you start to take pride in being that kind of person.

但总的来说，如果你这样做了三个月、六个月或一年，你就会在某个时刻跨过这个无形的门槛，你会说：“是的，成为一名篮球运动员一定是我的一个重要组成部分，”你开始为自己是这样的人感到自豪。

James Clear: And if you take pride in it, if it becomes part of your story, then you'll fight to maintain the habit, and now all of a sudden the situation is flipped.

詹姆斯·克利尔：如果你为此感到自豪，如果它成为你故事的一部分，那么你就会努力保持这个习惯，但现在情况突然发生了逆转。

Now you're trying to do it rather than trying not to do it, you know?

现在你要努力去做而不是不去做，你知道吗？

Rather than trying to motivate yourself to stick to it, you're just saying, "This is part of who I am," you know?

你不是试图激励自己坚持下去，而是只是说：“这是我的一部分”，你知道吗？

I get up and I go for a run because I'm a runner, not because I have a half-marathon in three months.

我起床去跑步是因为我是一名跑步者，而不是因为我三个月后要参加半程马拉松。

I'm doing it because I like being this kind of person.

我这样做是因为我喜欢成为这样的人。

James Clear: So, I think the question of what are my actions reinforcing, how are my habits feeding my desired identity, is an interesting thing to play with, and I think an important question for all of us to ask ourselves.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我认为我的行为强化了什么，我的习惯如何满足我想要的身份，这是一件有趣的事情，我认为我们所有人都应该问自己一个重要的问题。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I confess that friction for me is a great motivator.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我承认摩擦对我来说是一个很大的动力。

I was in essentially a scientific competition in my postdoc years, also when I started my lab, and I was like, "This is great." I have something constantly to push against.

在我的博士后岁月里，当我开始我的实验室时，我本质上参加了一场科学竞赛，我当时想，“这太棒了。”我有一些事情需要不断地反对。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I enjoyed the work.

Andrew Huberman：我很享受这份工作。

James Clear: What kind of friction do you mean?

詹姆斯·克利尔：你指的是哪种摩擦？

Andrew Huberman: Oh, a big lab that we were competing with.

Andrew Huberman：哦，我们正在与之竞争的一个大实验室。

And it was a new area.

这是一个新领域。

A bunch of tools had arrived on the scene.

一堆工具已经抵达现场。

We were developing tools, they were developing tools, and it was very, very competitive.

我们在开发工具，他们也在开发工具，竞争非常非常激烈。

And I was like, "This is so great."

我当时想，“这太棒了。”

James Clear: Felt like a little arms race?

詹姆斯·克利尔：感觉就像一场小型军备竞赛？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and it was.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，确实如此。

And they got their piece, and we got our piece, and it all worked out.

他们得到了他们的部分，我们也得到了我们的部分，一切都顺利了。

But I think competition can bring that out, and I think it was really healthy.

但我认为竞争可以带来这一点，而且我认为这确实是健康的。

And it raised the anxiety level, certainly, because in science you can actually get scooped.

当然，这也提高了人们的焦虑程度，因为在科学领域，你实际上可能会被抢先。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: You can work very, very hard for a lot of years, and someone can beat you to the punch.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你可以非常非常努力地工作很多年，但有人可以先发制人。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And you have to tell the student or postdoc, "We are resetting." And when I was the postdoc, it was scary.

Andrew Huberman：你必须告诉学生或博士后，“我们正在重置。”当我还是博士后时，这很可怕。

So, you try and find your corner where there's a bit more assurance that you're going to be okay no matter what, but it's not always the case.

所以，你试着找到一个更能保证你无论如何都会没事的角落，但情况并非总是如此。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: Especially if you pick the problems that are very timely.

Andrew Huberman：特别是当你选择非常及时的问题时。

The tools just became available to answer questions that people have wanted to answer for a long time, and it's just a cluster.

这些工具刚刚可以用来回答人们长期以来想要回答的问题，而且它只是一个集群。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And so, I used to think, "Gosh, is this unhealthy?

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我曾经想，“天哪，这不健康吗？

Is this really unhealthy?" I'm waking up at 4:00 in the morning and going to lab and beating them.

这真的不健康吗？”我早上 4:00 起床，去实验室打败他们。

I'm like, "No, are you kidding me?" It was part of building my career, but I wouldn't want to do that forever.

我说：“不，你在开玩笑吗？”这是我职业生涯的一部分，但我不想永远这样做。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And so, the flow piece sounds really, really nice.

Andrew Huberman：所以，流程片段听起来真的非常非常好。

And at the same time, I don't know.

同时，我不知道。

I agree completely with what you said, that in the friction you get these sorts of breakthroughs of like, "Oh, this went well for five minutes.

我完全同意你所说的，在摩擦中你会得到这样的突破，比如，“哦，这五分钟进展顺利。

I really enjoy this."

我真的很喜欢这个。”

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And you start to hold onto those pockets.

Andrew Huberman：然后你就开始抓住这些口袋。

You said you really enjoy the workout, the set.

你说过你真的很喜欢这项训练、这套训练。

I feel a lot of resonance with that.

我对此有很多共鸣。

I actually like exercising.

我其实很喜欢运动。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: But you're one of the few people I've ever met that doesn't say, "Oh, I like how I feel afterwards." I like how I feel afterwards, but I also like how it feels in the moment.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但你是我见过的少数几个不会说“哦，我喜欢事后的感觉”的人之一。我喜欢事后的感觉，但我也喜欢当下的感觉。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: It sounds like you do as well.

Andrew Huberman：听起来你也这么认为。

James Clear: Yeah, I like the act of it.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，我喜欢这种行为。

I like the practice of it.

我喜欢它的实践。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I mean, that's a gift that you had to work for.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我的意思是，这是一份你必须努力才能获得的礼物。

James Clear: I think so.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我想是的。

Well, to the point that you just made, it's hard for you to imagine always being in that flow or always feeling that way about it, and also the competition can be very healthy.

嗯，就你刚才所说的而言，你很难想象总是处于这种状态或总是有这样的感觉，而且竞争也可以是非常健康的。

I agree.

我同意。

I think it's both.

我认为两者都是。

And I resist anybody who would say that they're always in one or the other.

我抵制任何人说他们总是处于其中之一。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: I think everybody's in both from time to time.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我认为每个人有时都会同时经历这两种情况。

And your point about the competition between the labs, that's instructive for building habits too.

你关于实验室之间竞争的观点对于培养习惯也很有启发。

Sometimes it really helps if things have stakes.

有时，如果事情有利害关系，这确实会有帮助。

I find that it's actually quite hard for me to care if there are no stakes.

我发现如果没有赌注的话，我实际上很难去关心。

James Clear: I want there to be something that matters.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我希望有一些重要的事情。

Ultimately, that's why I decided to start sharing my ideas online.

最终，这就是我决定开始在线分享我的想法的原因。

I was working at a orthopedic practice, just doing an internship over the summer.

我当时在一家骨科诊所工作，只是在暑假实习。

This was many years ago.

这是很多年前的事了。

And I started writing about habits, and nobody asked me to, I just was doing it because I was interested in it.

我开始写关于习惯的文章，没有人要求我这样做，我只是因为对此感兴趣而这样做。

And I got this Word doc that was 60 pages long, it was just James' thoughts on habits.

我得到了这份长达 60 页的 Word 文档，这只是詹姆斯对习惯的思考。

And writing in the Word doc is kind of boring.

而且在Word文档中写作有点无聊。

There are no stakes, you know?

没有赌注，你知道吗？

James Clear: So, I was like, well, eventually I need to put some of this up and just see, is it any good or not?

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我想，好吧，最终我需要把其中的一些放在上面，看看它有什么好处吗？

Do people like it or not?

人们喜欢不喜欢？

And eventually that led to jamesclear.com, then eventually "Atomic Habits." But the fact that there were stakes forced me to up my game.

最终，这导致了 jamesclear.com，然后最终是“原子习惯”。但事实上，有赌注迫使我加大力度。

My undergraduate degree's in biomechanics, and then I got a business degree as well, so I don't have a degree in psychology or neuroscience, which is kind of what I think you would expect somebody who writes about habits to have.

我的本科学位是生物力学，然后我还获得了商业学位，所以我没有心理学或神经科学学位，我认为这是你期望写关于习惯的人拥有的学位。

James Clear: And so, I was kind of lamenting that early on, and I said that to a friend, and he said, "Well, the way you become an expert is by writing about it every week." And so, I just really internalized that, and so I wrote two articles a week for the next three years.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我很早就对此感到遗憾，我对一个朋友说了这句话，他说：“好吧，你成为专家的方法就是每周写下来。”所以，我真的把这一点内化了，所以在接下来的三年里我每周写两篇文章。

And it turns out, if you write 150 articles about habits, you learn a lot along the way.

事实证明，如果你写 150 篇关于习惯的文章，你就会在这个过程中学到很多东西。

And because it was public, I could get criticized every time, and I think that made the work much better.

因为它是公开的，所以我每次都会受到批评，我认为这让工作变得更好。

And ultimately, I was able to triangulate my way to putting together some decent ideas about the topic.

最终，我能够通过三角测量的方式将一些关于该主题的不错的想法组合在一起。

Andrew Huberman: And building habits and suppressing bad habits is synonymous with your name, and vice versa.

Andrew Huberman：养成习惯和抑制坏习惯是你名字的同义词，反之亦然。

I think there are several cases I can think of: you, Derek from More Plates More Dates, who does online fitness and health content, neither of whom have formal training in the information they share, who are both superb.

我想我能想到的有几个案例：你，来自More Plates More Dates的Derek，做在线健身和健康内容，他们都没有接受过关于他们分享的信息的正式培训，他们都很棒。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Truly superb.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：真的太棒了。

And I know Derek a bit, and I think he also went out of his way to make sure that he was reading things with extra attention to the detail, making sure that the communication about it was correct, and acknowledging that he didn't have formal training in that area, formal academic training, forgive me.

我对德里克有一点了解，我认为他也竭尽全力确保他在阅读内容时特别注意细节，确保有关内容的沟通是正确的，并承认他没有在该领域接受过正式的培训，正式的学术培训，请原谅我。

Because all this stuff, exercise and health, as well as habits, you can practice them too, right?

因为所有这些东西，运动和健康，以及习惯，你也可以练习，对吗？

James Clear: Yeah, sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，当然。

James Clear: Sure, sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然，当然。

James Clear: I think the big question is just competence versus credentials.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我认为最大的问题是能力与资历。

If the argument is, "Well, you don't have a degree in this," well, that doesn't really tell me anything.

如果争论是，“好吧，你没有这方面的学位”，那么，这并不能真正告诉我任何事情。

But if the argument is, "This sentence is wrong," okay, well, now we have something to talk about, you know?

但如果争论是，“这句话是错误的”，好吧，好吧，现在我们有话要谈，你知道吗？

But if the sentences are right and I just don't have the degree, too bad.

但如果句子是对的，而我只是没有学位，那就太糟糕了。

It doesn't matter, right?

没关系，对吧？

It's about are the ideas right.

关键在于想法是否正确。

Andrew Huberman: That's that Midwest sensibility, practicality that I think really resonates with people, because the problem with kind of ivory tower academic stuff that is associated with high levels of credibility is oftentimes people feel like the people are out of touch with the real world.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我认为这就是中西部的情感和实用性，这确实能引起人们的共鸣，因为与高可信度相关的象牙塔学术东西的问题是，人们常常觉得人们与现实世界脱节。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And obviously, the merge of the two is great.

Andrew Huberman：显然，两者的合并非常棒。

But I think the scientists then come to you, and now you can read a paper, and so I think that...

但我认为科学家们会来找你，现在你可以阅读一篇论文，所以我认为......

James Clear: It can be both.

詹姆斯·克利尔：两者都可以。

It doesn't need to be a competition, either.

它也不需要是一场比赛。

I think the point is just, are the ideas right.

我认为重点是，这些想法是否正确。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: Right?

詹姆斯·克利尔：对吗？

And if the ideas are right, then great.

如果想法是正确的，那就太好了。

And if the ideas are wrong, then I have some learning to do.

如果这些想法是错误的，那么我还需要学习。

Andrew Huberman: And do they work in the real world?

Andrew Huberman：它们在现实世界中有效吗？

And clearly people have benefited from these.

显然人们已经从中受益。

Yeah, I think this attachment to making the effort the reward is something that can happen.

是的，我认为这种让努力得到回报的执着是可能发生的。

I think that it's a top-down training.

我认为这是一种自上而下的培训。

I'd like your thoughts on this.

我想听听你对此的想法。

We can tell ourselves, "This pain is good.

我们可以告诉自己，“这种痛苦是好的。

This is me getting better." I think there are two kind of parallel examples in the world of exercise where it's very concrete, and I think it maps to the cognitive space.

这是我正在变得更好。”我认为运动世界中有两种非常具体的平行例子，我认为它映射到认知空间。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: But I think one of the incredible things about resistance training is this notion of the pump.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但我认为阻力训练令人难以置信的事情之一就是泵的概念。

I mean, not because I enjoy it, but because it gives you a little visual and sensory window into what will happen if you do things correctly, like recover and proper nutrition, et cetera.

我的意思是，不是因为我喜欢它，而是因为它给了你一个视觉和感官的窗口，让你了解如果你做正确的事情会发生什么，比如恢复和适当的营养等等。

You literally get a visual and a sensory window into the future.

您确实获得了通向未来的视觉和感官窗口。

James Clear: You have some kind of evidence that, in the moment, you're doing it right.

詹姆斯·克利尔：有某种证据表明，目前你的做法是正确的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And in general, what you end up with, it sort of parallels that progress during the workout.

安德鲁·休伯曼：总的来说，你最终得到的结果与锻炼过程中的进展类似。

Whereas with running, if I run up a steep hill with a weight vest on, my lungs are burning, I want to cough up a lung, I feel like I want to vomit.

而跑步时，如果我穿着举重背心跑上陡峭的山坡，我的肺部就会燃烧，我想咳出肺，我感觉我想吐。

And we can tell ourselves, "This is good.

我们可以告诉自己：“这很好。

This is me getting better.

这是我正在变得更好。

It will be easier the next time," but you don't feel faster in the moment.

下次会更容易，”但此刻你并没有感觉更快。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: You're not like, "Oh, this is what it feels like to really be faster than I am on this current day." And so, I think both are important.

Andrew Huberman：你不会说，“哦，这就是比我今天跑得更快的感觉。”所以，我认为两者都很重要。

So, I look at those as kind of templates for the positive feedback I can give myself.

因此，我将这些视为我可以给自己的积极反馈的模板。

If I have a good stretch of writing or podcast prep where I'm really finding papers, I'm like, "This is so cool.

如果我有大量的写作或播客准备，我真的可以找到论文，我会想，“这太酷了。

This is great," I'll say, "Okay, this is really good," like we're in the groove.

这太棒了，”我会说，“好吧，这真的很好，”就像我们处于最佳状态一样。

That's sort of like the pump in the gym thing.

这有点像健身房里的泵。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: It's heading someplace.

Andrew Huberman：它正在前往某个地方。

But then when things are really running up against a brick wall and where it's like, "This is so painful," I've had to teach myself to say, "Okay, this is good.

但当事情真正陷入困境时，就像“这太痛苦了”，我不得不教自己说：“好吧，这很好。

This is me getting better.

这是我正在变得更好。

This is how the brain learns." The brain learns by experiencing friction.

这就是大脑的学习方式。”大脑通过体验摩擦来学习。

It doesn't learn by experiencing performance.

它不会通过体验表现来学习。

James Clear: Right.

詹姆斯·克利尔：对。

Andrew Huberman: I mean, we don't learn from performance.

Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，我们不会从表现中学习。

We only learn from failure, right?

我们只能从失败中学习，对吗？

The brain won't change unless it has to change.

除非必须改变，否则大脑不会改变。

So, I'd love your thoughts on this as it relates to the space I think most people think of habits and learning, like how to learn a new language, or a musical instrument, or just changing one's daily routine so that one is healthier or kinder.

所以，我很想听听你对此的想法，因为它与我认为大多数人想到的习惯和学习有关，比如如何学习一门新语言或一种乐器，或者只是改变一个人的日常生活，使一个人变得更健康或更友善。

A lot of people just struggle with kind of being jerks, and I think they're trying to be kind, and it's hard.

很多人都在与混蛋作斗争，我认为他们试图变得友善，但这很难。

It's hard to develop the habit of being kind if that's not their nature.

如果这不是他们的本性，那么就很难养成友善的习惯。

Andrew Huberman: So, how do these things map for you?

Andrew Huberman：那么，这些事情对你来说是怎样的呢？

James Clear: A lot of the time people will complain about writing habits, for example.

詹姆斯·克利尔：例如，很多时候人们会抱怨写作习惯。

Writing is so hard.

写作真是太难了。

Writing is so difficult.

写作是如此困难。

It feels so arduous in the moment.

此刻感觉好辛苦。

And sometimes I try to remind myself, yeah, it does feel difficult, and that's kind of why it works.

有时我会试着提醒自己，是的，这确实感觉很困难，这就是它起作用的原因。

Imagine going into the gym and complaining that the weights are heavy.

想象一下走进健身房并抱怨重量很重。

You're like, "Well, yes, the weights are heavy." That's why you're getting stronger.

你会说，“嗯，是的，重量很重。”这就是为什么你会变得更强。

And the writing is hard, and that's how you're getting smarter.

写作很难，这就是你变得更聪明的方法。

Or at least, let's say, that's how you're clarifying your thoughts.

或者至少，可以说，这就是你澄清自己想法的方式。

James Clear: Just as the weights feeling heavy is evidence that you are getting stronger, the writing feeling hard is evidence that you are thinking, that you are forcing yourself to think and clarify.

詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）：正如感觉重量沉重是你变得更强壮的证据一样，写作感觉困难是你正在思考的证据，你正在强迫自己思考和澄清。

So, there is some friction, some tension that is necessary for growth.

因此，增长需要一些摩擦和张力。

I think what you're referencing, telling yourself a better story in the moment, is very helpful.

我认为你所引用的，当下告诉自己一个更好的故事，是非常有帮助的。

Yeah, it is painful, it is hard, and this is part of what it means to grow.

是的，这很痛苦，很艰难，但这就是成长的一部分。

I also think it's helpful to do some things either beforehand or afterward that can help feed that process to get you to show up.

我还认为，在事前或事后做一些事情是有帮助的，这有助于促进这个过程，让你出现。

James Clear: So, for example, beforehand, pre-visualization can be really helpful.

James Clear：因此，例如，事先进行预可视化确实很有帮助。

I practice this with my kids, just trying to help them imagine what a good day would look like.

我和我的孩子们一起练习，只是想帮助他们想象美好的一天会是什么样子。

Like my one son, he started preschool recently, and the first day of drop-off, he didn't have a good day.

像我的一个儿子一样，他最近开始上学前班，在放学的第一天，他过得并不愉快。

He kind of cried, fussed a little bit, didn't really want to stay.

他有点哭了，有点大惊小怪，真的不想留下来。

Second day, same sort of thing.

第二天，同样的事情。

So, the third day I said, "All right, it's preschool day today." And he was like, "Uh," and I was like, "Hold on, let's just..." We're getting breakfast in the morning.

所以，第三天我说：“好吧，今天是学前班。”他说，“呃，”我说，“等一下，我们就……”我们早上要吃早餐。

I said, "You like preschool, right?

我说：“你喜欢上学前班，对吗？

You really like your teachers."

你真的很喜欢你的老师。”

James Clear: He was like, "Yeah." I said, "What about you guys did snack time yesterday.

詹姆斯·克利尔：他说，“是的。”我说：“你们昨天吃点心怎么样？

That was fun, right?" He's like, "Yeah." I said, "You got to play with glue sticks and the crayons.

那很有趣，对吧？”他说：“是的。”我说：“你必须玩胶棒和蜡笔。

That was a cool activity.

那是一项很酷的活动。

And what do you do after school gets done?" He was like, "Oh, we go out on the playground and we play for 30 minutes or whatever." And that was it.

那放学后你做什么呢？”他说，“哦，我们去操场上玩 30 分钟或者其他什么。”就是这样。

I just stopped there.

我就停在那里。

But the point is that I'm trying to get him to imagine what a good day would look like if it unfolds, right?

但重点是，我试图让他想象一下，如果一切顺利展开，美好的一天会是什么样子，对吧？

Emphasize the positive parts of the experience that are about to happen.

强调即将发生的经历中积极的部分。

James Clear: What are the things that you're about to do that you enjoy or that are good for you?

詹姆斯·克利尔：您即将要做的哪些事情是您喜欢的或对您有好处的？

And go into the day with that story in your mind, and I think that increases the odds that you're going to show up.

带着这个故事进入一天，我认为这会增加你出现的几率。

And maybe we just got lucky, who knows?

也许我们只是运气好，谁知道呢？

But he had a good drop-off that day.

但那天他的表现很好。

Andrew Huberman: Sounds like a great day.

安德鲁·休伯曼：听起来是美好的一天。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

James Clear: Sounds awesome.

詹姆斯·克利尔：听起来棒极了。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

James Clear: I want to do it too.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我也想这么做。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

James Clear: I played baseball for a while.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我打过一段时间棒球。

I played baseball through college.

我在大学打棒球。

And when I was younger, like 10, 12, 14, my dad and I would do this thing where, at the end of each season, we'd go and sit down on the back deck, and we would kind of like replay the good parts of the season.

当我年轻的时候，比如 10 岁、12 岁、14 岁的时候，我和爸爸会做这样的事情，在每个赛季结束时，我们会坐在后甲板上，我们有点喜欢重播赛季的精彩部分。

We'd talk about our best games, the best wins, talk about the best plays that I had had, or things that went well, or whatever.

我们会谈论我们最好的比赛，最好的胜利，谈论我打过的最好的比赛，或者进展顺利的事情，或者其他什么。

And we're just trying to like emphasize the wins, you know?

我们只是想强调胜利，你知道吗？

James Clear: And so, I finished each season, even if it wasn't like the best season for me, I was never the best player on any team that I was on, but I finished it feeling good, and that gives you a little bit of momentum going into the next season.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我完成了每个赛季，即使这对我来说不是最好的赛季，我从来都不是我所在球队中最好的球员，但我完成赛季的感觉很好，这给了你进入下个赛季的一点动力。

And so, I think the core question, whether you're visualizing it ahead of time or rehearsing it afterward, is "What are you emphasizing?" There's this interesting exercise I heard of one time, and you take a piece of paper or two documents, and the only rule of this game is that you can't write down anything that's false.

所以，我认为核心问题，无论你是提前想象还是事后排练，都是“你强调什么？”我曾经听说过一个有趣的练习，你拿一张纸或两份文件，这个游戏的唯一规则是你不能写下任何错误的东西。

So, yeah, it just has to be true if you write it down.

所以，是的，如果你把它写下来，它就必须是真的。

James Clear: The first page, you're going to write down the story of your last year, but it's the negative version, all the bad things that happened, the stuff that didn't go your way, whatever.

詹姆斯·克利尔：第一页，你要写下去年的故事，但这是负面的版本，发生的所有坏事，那些不按你的意愿发生的事情，等等。

The second page, you're going to write down the story of your last year, but it's the positive version, all the wins you've had, the things that worked out well, your best days.

第二页，你要写下你去年的故事，但这是积极的版本，你所取得的所有胜利，进展顺利的事情，你最好的日子。

And you look at those two pieces of paper, there are no lies on either one.

你看看那两张纸，其中一张都没有谎言。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: And I think the question is, which one are you emphasizing each day?

詹姆斯·克利尔：我认为问题是，你每天都强调哪一个？

What story do you carry with you when you go into the next experience?

当你进入下一次经历时，你会带着什么故事？

James Clear: And as long as you are not ignoring reality, as long as you're not ignoring the truth of the situation and what you need to manage or what you need to face, I think you always want to tell yourself the more empowering one.

詹姆斯·克利尔：只要你不忽视现实，只要你不忽视情况的真相，以及你需要管理什么或你需要面对什么，我认为你总是想告诉自己更有力量的一个。

You always want to carry that version with you that makes you feel inspired or empowered or positive, and that, I think, will increase the odds that you show up.

你总是想随身携带那个让你感到受到启发、充满力量或积极的版本，我认为这会增加你出现的几率。

I don't know that it'll necessarily make you a kinder person, but certainly it puts you in a better position for things like that to happen.

我不知道这是否一定会让你成为一个更友善的人，但它肯定会让你在发生类似的事情时处于更好的位置。

James Clear: So, I think there is some mental rehearsal, let's say, that you can do to put yourself in a better position to not only just have a good day, but also be more likely to perform at a high level.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我认为可以进行一些心理排练，让自己处于更好的位置，不仅可以度过美好的一天，而且更有可能表现出高水平。

Andrew Huberman: By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade, and indeed, that's true.

Andrew Huberman：到目前为止，我相信你们很多人都听我说过我服用 AG1 已有十多年了，事实上，这是真的。

The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest-quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

我早在 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，并且至今仍然每天服用，因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。

Andrew Huberman: What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet while also providing support for a demanding life.

Andrew Huberman：这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还含有益生菌、益生元和适应原，可以弥补您饮食中可能存在的任何空白，同时也为高要求的生活提供支持。

Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.

鉴于 AG1 中的益生菌和益生元，它还有助于支持健康的肠道微生物组。

The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.

肠道微生物组由数万亿个小微生物组成，它们排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。

Andrew Huberman: Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.

Andrew Huberman：持续服用 AG1 有助于我的消化，保持我的免疫系统强大，并确保我的情绪和精神焦点始终处于最佳状态。

AG1 is now available in three new flavors: berry, citrus, and tropical.

AG1 现已推出三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带味。

And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular.

虽然我一直很喜欢 AG1 原味，尤其是添加了一点柠檬汁，但我真的特别喜欢新的浆果味。

It tastes great, but then again, I do love all the flavors.

味道很棒，但话又说回来，我确实喜欢所有的口味。

Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 AG1 并尝试这些新口味，您可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

Right now, AG1 is giving away six free sample packs of AGZ, which is AG1's new sleep formula, which, by the way, is fantastic.

现在，AG1 正在免费赠送六包 AGZ 样品包，这是 AG1 的新睡眠配方，顺便说一句，非常棒。

It's the only sleep supplement I take.

这是我唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。

It eliminates the need for all these pills, and my sleep has never been better.

它消除了对所有这些药物的需要，而且我的睡眠从未如此好过。

Andrew Huberman: The special offer gives you six free samples of that AGZ, as well as three AG1 travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your first subscription.

Andrew Huberman：特别优惠为您提供 6 个 AGZ 的免费样品，以及 3 个 AG1 旅行包和一瓶维生素 D3 K2，首次订阅。

Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.

只需访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 即可开始。

Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv.

Andrew Huberman：今天的节目也是 Joovv 为我们带来的。

Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.

Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。

Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.

现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。

Andrew Huberman: Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself.

Andrew Huberman：现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光源已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症，甚至线粒体功能，以及改善视力本身。

Andrew Huberman: What sets Joovv lights apart, and why they're my preferred red light therapy device, is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.

Andrew Huberman：Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选的红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着特定波长的红光和近红外光相结合可以触发最佳的细胞适应。

Personally, I use the Joovv whole-body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.

就我个人而言，我每周大约使用 Joovv 全身面板三到四次，在家和旅行时我都会使用 Joovv 手持灯。

If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv（拼写为 J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman）。

Andrew Huberman: Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to 400 dollars off Joovv products.

Andrew Huberman：Joovv 为所有 Huberman Lab 听众提供独家折扣，Joovv 产品最高可享受 400 美元的折扣。

Again, that's Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman, to get up to 400 dollars off.

同样，这就是 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman，最高可享受 400 美元的折扣。

Andrew Huberman: I think that it's very difficult to do what one wants to do without imagining it first.

Andrew Huberman：我认为，如果不先想象，就很难做自己想做的事。

I think people get scared that the outcome won't be what they hope for.

我认为人们会害怕结果不会是他们所希望的。

That fear of failure piece I think is very real.

我认为对失败的恐惧是非常真实的。

The post-activity reflection, just want to hover on that for a second.

活动后的反思，只想在上面徘徊一秒钟。

Andrew Huberman: About a year ago, we did an episode on how best to study and learn, and this maps, of course, to neuroplasticity, and the literature is very straightforward.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：大约一年前，我们做了一集关于如何最好地学习和学习的节目，这当然映射到神经可塑性，文献非常简单。

But there's this interesting shift in the literature in the last couple of years, which clearly shows that anything that we reflect on later, we learn faster and we retain longer.

但过去几年文献中出现了这种有趣的转变，这清楚地表明，我们以后反思的任何事情，我们都会学得更快，并且记忆得更久。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And it's because most all of learning is anti-forgetting, and that sounds so obvious.

Andrew Huberman：这是因为大多数学习都是反遗忘的，这听起来很明显。

It's like a giant "duh." Whenever I say that, people are like, "Well, duh," it's just a play on words.

就像一个巨大的“呃”。每当我这么说时，人们都会说，“呃，呃，”这只是一个文字游戏。

But no, I mean, there's all this sensory information coming in, massive amounts, and we forget most of it.

但不，我的意思是，大量的感官信息涌入，而我们却忘记了其中的大部分。

It's either irrelevant or it just goes through for whatever reason and doesn't stick.

它要么是无关紧要的，要么只是因为某种原因而经历过并且不坚持。

Andrew Huberman: When students, for instance, would read a passage once, or twice, or three times, or four times, and they did all the derivations of do they take notes, do they highlight, do they talk about it with friends, et cetera, there are two things that really make things stick, and one is self-testing, just reflecting later, "Oh, I don't remember that.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：例如，当学生读一篇文章一次、两次、三遍、四遍时，他们会做所有的推导，比如是否做笔记、是否突出显示、是否与朋友讨论等等，有两件事真正让事情坚持下来，一是自我测试，只是事后反思，“哦，我不记得了。

No, I got that wrong." That's incredible for self-evaluation, and low stakes is incredibly powerful for retaining information.

不，我错了。”这对于自我评估来说是令人难以置信的，而低风险对于保留信息来说是非常强大的。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And the other one was just reflecting on what happened, what went right, what went wrong, which is really what you're describing about these exercises and your kids' day, right?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：另一个只是反思发生了什么，什么是对的，什么是错的，这确实是你所描述的关于这些练习和你的孩子们的一天，对吗？

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

James Clear: It reminds me a little bit of like the spaced repetition literature.

James Clear：这让我想起了一些间隔重复文献。

In a way, the reflection is another instance of the spaced repetition.

在某种程度上，反射是间隔重复的另一个例子。

You come back to it later, and it resurfaces the material, and that increases the odds that you retain it.

当你稍后再回头看时，它会重新呈现这些材料，这会增加你记住它的可能性。

Andrew Huberman: Yep.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, having taught many undergraduate and graduate courses, medical students, I can tell you...

安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，在教过许多医学生的本科生和研究生课程后，我可以告诉你......

Well, graduate students and medical students are universally motivated because the stakes are very high.

嗯，研究生和医学生普遍都有积极性，因为风险非常高。

Classes are smaller.

班级规模较小。

There's kind of more of a community around us.

我们周围有更多的社区。

James Clear: They've also passed a filter just to get in, right?

James Clear：他们也通过了一个过滤器才能进入，对吗？

There's a selection bias just to be there.

仅仅在那里就存在选择偏差。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

Andrew Huberman: Undergraduates, it varies by place and course and major, et cetera, but whether or not it's their major or not, I'm not saying different majors are more or less motivated.

Andrew Huberman：本科生，它因地点、课程和专业等而异，但无论是否是他们的专业，我并不是说不同的专业或多或少有动力。

But what's interesting is that most students are exposed to information.

但有趣的是，大多数学生都会接触到信息。

They might study for the exam, ideally, they do.

他们可能会为了考试而学习，理想情况下，他们会这样做。

And then the next time that they are evaluated on that material in any kind of concrete way is on the exam.

然后，下次以任何具体方式对这些材料进行评估时，就是在考试中。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And the students that actually test themselves or that ask for some...

安德鲁·休伯曼：那些真正测试自己或要求一些的学生......

The best students always ask for a pre-quiz quiz.

最好的学生总是要求进行考前测验。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Inevitably the best-performing students.

Andrew Huberman：必然是表现最好的学生。

And I think this business of just being willing to feel the pain of being wrong when there are very low stakes, it still sucks.

我认为，在风险很低的情况下，愿意去感受犯错的痛苦，这仍然很糟糕。

None of us like to be wrong.

我们谁都不喜欢犯错。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: It's like, "Ugh," and you decide to put it online.

Andrew Huberman：就像，“呃”，你决定把它放到网上。

Is any of this wrong?

这有错吗？

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: We've done that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们已经做到了。

We've now, having had a few painful experiences where I just said the wrong thing in passing or made a joke that was turned into a not-joke.

我们现在已经经历过一些痛苦的经历，我只是顺便说错了话，或者开了个玩笑，结果却变成了一个非玩笑。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

James Clear: I'm a slow learner.

James Clear：我学东西很慢。

I need a lot of feedback.

我需要很多反馈。

Andrew Huberman: I mean, there were jokes I made that then were cut.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，我讲过一些笑话，然后就被删掉了。

Those kinds of experiences are painful enough that you check everything with a fine-tooth comb going forward, you know?

这些经历已经足够痛苦了，你知道吗？

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman: That's the way it is.

安德鲁·休伯曼：事情就是这样。

But I think most people will do anything to avoid that kind of scrutiny.

但我认为大多数人会尽一切努力来避免这种审查。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I think your willingness to lean into that scrutiny and just have the general public kind of test you, like where are these ideas working, where are they not working is so powerful, because the places where they don't work, you'll never forget.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我认为你愿意接受这种审查，并让公众对你进行测试，比如这些想法在哪里有效，在哪里无效，这是非常强大的，因为它们无效的地方，你永远不会忘记。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: The places where they work, you'll never forget.

Andrew Huberman：他们工作的地方，你永远不会忘记。

James Clear: I just heard from a friend who said that she had kind of this perfectionist streak, and she can look back now on her life and see that if there was a moment when she saw somebody doing something and she thought, "Oh, well, I couldn't be as good at that as they are," or, "I won't be the best at that," then she would talk herself out of trying at all, because...

詹姆斯·克利尔：我刚刚听一位朋友说，她有一种完美主义倾向，她现在回顾自己的生活，就会发现，如果有那么一刻，她看到有人在做某事，她想，“哦，好吧，我不能像他们一样擅长那件事，”或者，“我不会在那方面做得最好，”然后她会说服自己根本不去尝试，因为......

Andrew Huberman: It's like an anti-growth mindset.

Andrew Huberman：这就像一种反增长心态。

James Clear: Right.

詹姆斯·克利尔：对。

Yeah.

是的。

Well, and I thought about that because I don't feel that way, even though I feel like I did, especially early on, have some, I don't know if we'd call it perfectionist tendencies, but just this very high desire to do it right or to get it right.

好吧，我想到了这一点，因为我没有那样的感觉，尽管我感觉我有，特别是在早期，有一些，我不知道我们是否可以称之为完美主义倾向，但就是这种非常强烈的愿望去做正确的事情或把事情做好。

But I don't feel like I did that, talk myself out of it, and I thought, "Why was that?

但我不觉得我这么做了，我说服自己不要这样做，我想，“为什么会这样呢？

What was different there?" And the story that was in my head most of the time was, "I can learn this." So, it wasn't even about a comparison, right?

那里有什么不同？”我脑子里大部分时间都在想的故事是：“我可以学到这个。”所以，这甚至不是比较，对吧？

It wasn't like, "Oh, I could do it better or worse." That wasn't the thing.

这并不是说，“哦，我可以做得更好或更差。”事情不是这样的。

James Clear: It was, "Oh, I think I can figure that out and it'll be interesting to figure it out." I think if you can approach all of your habits and maybe a lot of life with this lens of curiosity, where it's not really about failing or succeeding, it's about reaching, it's about trying something new and then seeing what you can learn from it, that puts you in a good position too, because it's a little bit less about...

詹姆斯·克利尔：“哦，我想我能弄清楚这一点，而且弄清楚它会很有趣。”我认为，如果你能用好奇心来对待你所有的习惯，也许还有很多生活，这并不是真正的失败或成功，而是关于达到目标，是关于尝试新事物，然后看看你能从中学到什么，这也会让你处于一个有利的位置，因为它少了一点……

Competition has its place, and I consider myself to be a fairly competitive person, but it's nice when you don't make everything about that, about being the best from the start, because you can talk yourself out of a lot.

竞争有它的地位，我认为自己是一个相当有竞争力的人，但如果你不做一切事情，从一开始就成为最好的，那很好，因为你可以说服自己放弃很多事情。

Andrew Huberman: Oh, I agree, and, I mean, I continually place myself in venues, academic and physical, where there's no way I was going to be the best in that environment.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：哦，我同意，而且，我的意思是，我不断地将自己置于学术和体育场所，在那种环境中我不可能成为最好的。

Just no chance.

只是没有机会。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: It was just the fuel of needing to compete in order to...

安德鲁·休伯曼：这只是需要竞争的燃料......

Not with my colleagues, but with people outside my institution, like where it's a great motivator for the extra mile, for doing that extra mile kind of thing.

不是和我的同事，而是和我所在机构之外的人，比如它是加倍努力、做加倍努力之类的事情的巨大动力。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I mean, I guess Jocko talks about this, waking before the enemy, where the stakes there, right, before you could became a writer, the stakes were high risk, high consequence.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我的意思是，我猜乔科谈到了这一点，在敌人面前醒来，那里的赌注，对，在你成为一名作家之前，赌注是高风险、高后果。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: You don't get up earlier, more of your people might die.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你不早点起床，更多的人可能会死去。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: That was pretty high stakes, high consequence, right?

Andrew Huberman：那是相当高的风险，很高的后果，对吧？

And so, I think that additional friction can really bring out people's best.

因此，我认为额外的摩擦确实可以激发人们的最佳状态。

I also think at some point it can become painful to the point where people around us obviously can suffer.

我还认为，在某些时候，它可能会变得痛苦到我们周围的人显然会受苦的程度。

Jocko, by the way, maintains, because I know his family, a beautiful family, in addition to doing all that.

顺便说一句，乔科坚持认为，因为我了解他的家庭，一个美好的家庭，除了做这一切之外。

He legitimately gets up at 4:30 in the morning.

他早上 4:30 正常起床。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I've done sauna with him.

Andrew Huberman：我和他一起洗过桑拿。

I was the guy down on the floor gasping for air.

我就是那个倒在地板上喘着气的人。

It was kind of a joke and story for another time, but he calls it the factory reset, and he wanted to put me through the factory reset protocol, and it is brutal.

这又是一个笑话和故事，但他称之为恢复出厂设置，他想让我完成恢复出厂设置协议，这很残酷。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: It's just brutal.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这太残酷了。

And I think that he lives in a land where the friction is the reward, but also that the rewards come from relaxation too, which is what I wanted to bring up.

我认为在他生活的土地上，摩擦就是回报，但回报也来自放松，这就是我想提出的。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Because after the sauna that night, the rest of us packed it in for the day, and he went to see a show.

安德鲁·休伯曼：因为那天晚上洗完桑拿后，我们其他人就收拾好行李，然后他去看了一场演出。

I was like, "Oh, he also relaxes." I'm curious about how the habit of striving can be also mirrored by the habit of real, true relaxation.

我当时想，“哦，他也放松了。”我很好奇，努力的习惯如何能反映在真正放松的习惯中。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Not thinking about the thing you need to do or trying to build, but allowing that maybe plasticity to take place, not just in sleep.

Andrew Huberman：不要考虑你需要做或尝试构建的东西，而是允许可塑性发生，而不仅仅是在睡眠中。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: But are you an active relaxer?

安德鲁·休伯曼：但是你是一个积极的放松者吗？

Do you say, "Now it's time to just completely chill"?

你是否会说“现在是时候彻底放松一下了”？

James Clear: Yeah, I think I'm pretty good at shutting off when I decide to shut off.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，当我决定关闭时，我认为我非常擅长关闭。

I think it was on Tim Ferriss's podcast at one point, and he had Josh Waitzkin on there, and Josh said something about how he was doing a martial arts competition, and he was actually asleep on the bench on the side, and they came over and woke him up, and they said, "Hey, we got the time wrong for your event.

我想这是在蒂姆·费里斯的播客上，他让乔什·维茨金在那里，乔什说了一些关于他如何参加武术比赛的事情，他实际上在旁边的长凳上睡着了，他们过来把他叫醒，他们说，“嘿，我们把你的活动时间弄错了。

You're actually up in two minutes."

两分钟后你就真的起来了。”

James Clear: And so he woke up out of the sleep, and then he did his little pre-competition ritual and just flipped the switch and was ready to go.

詹姆斯·克利尔：于是他从睡梦中醒来，然后他做了赛前的小仪式，按下开关，准备出发。

And he talked about this importance of being able to turn it on and turn it off.

他谈到了能够打开和关闭它的重要性。

And ever since I've heard that example from him, I've been thinking more about this idea of turning it on and turning it off.

自从我从他那里听到这个例子以来，我一直在更多地思考打开和关闭它的想法。

You sprint, and then you rest.

你冲刺，然后休息。

What does that look like in daily life?

这在日常生活中是什么样子的呢？

James Clear: Well, first of all, I think it's kind of fractal.

James Clear：嗯，首先，我认为这是一种分形。

I think that you can say you could have a 10-year sprint where you're really career-focused.

我认为你可以说你可以进行一个真正专注于职业生涯的 10 年冲刺。

That's the season of your life right now.

现在正是你生命的季节。

And then maybe the next season is more family-focused or more relaxation-focused or whatever.

然后也许下一季会更加注重家庭或者更加注重放松或者其他什么。

It also, of course, could be a day or a week or even an hour.

当然，也可能是一天、一周甚至一个小时。

So, it can scale up and scale down.

因此，它可以放大和缩小。

But I also think it maybe is a better version of what it means to be balanced.

但我也认为这可能是平衡的更好版本。

James Clear: People talk a lot about work/life balance or what balance might look like.

詹姆斯·克利尔：人们经常谈论工作/生活的平衡，或者平衡可能是什么样子。

I think balance might actually be turning it on and turning it off really well.

我认为平衡实际上可能很好地打开和关闭它。

It's not doing everything at 50%.

它并没有以 50% 完成所有事情。

It's not just staying at some steady state.

这不仅仅是停留在某种稳定状态。

It means that when you're sprinting, you're actually sprinting, and when you're resting, you're actually resting.

这意味着当你冲刺时，你实际上是在冲刺，当你休息时，你实际上是在休息。

And the ability to oscillate between those two states in lots of ways, I think is very helpful.

我认为以多种方式在这两种状态之间振荡的能力非常有帮助。

James Clear: There's obviously the physical ways in which you could do it, whether it's working out or actually relaxing and resting.

詹姆斯·克利尔：显然，你可以通过身体上的方式来做到这一点，无论是锻炼还是实际上放松和休息。

I think there are mental ways to do it, too.

我认为也有精神上的方法可以做到这一点。

I tried to practice this a couple of months ago.

几个月前我尝试练习这个。

We were hosting a party, and anytime you're hosting an event, there can be this urgency that comes, right?

我们正在举办一场派对，无论何时举办活动，都会有这种紧迫感，对吧？

The people are coming.

人们来了。

The guests are coming.

客人来了。

Everybody's anxiety levels ratchet up, "Is everything ready?" And the phrase that I was playing with was, "Can I be outside and above this?

所有人的焦急度都在上升，“一切都准备好了吗？”我正在玩的这句话是，“我可以在外面并高于这个吗？

James Clear: So, can I mentally step outside and above the situation and almost look down on it?

詹姆斯·克利尔：那么，我可以在精神上跳出困境，超越现状，几乎看不起它吗？

And if you are outside and above the situation, really what you want is to feel larger than the situation that you are dealing with.

如果你置身于情境之外，超越情境，那么你真正想要的就是感觉比你正在处理的情境更伟大。

If you are smaller than the situation, mentally, then it is driving you, right?

如果你在精神上比情况更渺小，那么它就会驱动你，对吧？

Your anxieties are responding to this larger thing that you feel like you can't control.

你的焦虑是对你感觉无法控制的更大事情的反应。

But if you can step outside and above it, now I can look down on what is facing me right now, and I can make a wiser decision or a calmer decision or whatever.

但如果你能走出去并超越它，现在我可以俯视我现在面临的事情，我可以做出更明智的决定或更冷静的决定等等。

James Clear: And so, I'm trying to find ways to kind of turn the anxiety on and off, right?

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我正在努力寻找打开和关闭焦虑的方法，对吗？

Turn the stress on and off.

打开和关闭压力。

And so, I think there are a number of things that you can do there, but I'm trying to get better at practicing it myself.

因此，我认为你可以在那里做很多事情，但我自己正在努力练习得更好。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I think the word "reset" is not in our action palette enough these days.

Andrew Huberman：是的，我认为“重置”这个词现在在我们的动作调色板中还不够多。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I think because it's so easy to bring information and work to wherever we happen to be, and even if it's not work, just communications.

Andrew Huberman：我认为因为将信息和工作带到我们所在的任何地方都很容易，即使这不是工作，只是沟通。

I mean, I've made it a point in recent years to put social media on one phone, maybe even keep it in a lockbox, but I'll try and take hikes where I'm just spending time with the person I'm with, and the phone is back in the car.

我的意思是，近年来我已经把社交媒体放在一部手机上，甚至可能把它放在密码箱里，但我会尝试去远足，在那里我只是和和我在一起的人共度时光，而手机又回到了车里。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I realize there's a danger to that.

Andrew Huberman：我意识到这样做有危险。

There could be a fire.

可能会发生火灾。

It is LA, after all.

毕竟这是洛杉矶。

It could be mountain lions, this kind of thing, but it's totally worth it, totally worth the untethering, in my opinion.

可能是山狮之类的东西，但在我看来，这是完全值得的，完全值得摆脱束缚。

James Clear: Very little percentage of risk, too, you know?

James Clear：风险比例也很小，你知道吗？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

I mean, and there are people around, and, I mean, it's not clear the phone would save you from a mountain lion anyway.

我的意思是，周围还有人，而且，我的意思是，目前还不清楚手机能否将你从山狮手中救出来。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: So, you're better off...

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，你最好......

Actually, it'll probably reduce your reaction time.

事实上，它可能会减少你的反应时间。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Record your final moments.

记录你的最后时刻。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, exactly.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，完全正确。

James Clear: Yeah, that's interesting.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，这很有趣。

I also think that there's an element to...

我还认为有一个因素...

If you're the type of person who has a very strong work ethic, and you have worked your way out of problems throughout life, for me, for a long time, that was my solution to something.

如果你是那种具有强烈职业道德的人，并且你一生都在努力解决问题，那么对我来说，很长一段时间，这就是我对某些事情的解决方案。

If it wasn't working, well, then I'll just work a little bit harder and I'll work my way out of it.

如果它不起作用，那么我会更加努力一点，然后我会想办法摆脱它。

And when that has worked for you for a while, you end up using it as a crutch.

当这对你有用一段时间后，你最终会把它当作拐杖。

And so, hard work becomes this thing that you just kind of slide back into.

因此，努力工作就变成了你又会重新投入其中的事情。

James Clear: But what are the odds, mathematically speaking, what are the odds that the thing that you're doing today or this week is the highest and best use of your time?

詹姆斯·克利尔：但是，从数学角度来说，你今天或本周所做的事情最充分利用你的时间的可能性有多大？

It's almost impossible that you are actually working on the thing that is the best use of your time.

你几乎不可能真正从事最能充分利用时间的事情。

I think Sam Altman has some quote where he said something like, "You should have a very high bar for working on anything other than thinking about what to work on," because choosing the right thing to focus on is going to get you 100 or 1,000x the results.

我认为萨姆·奥尔特曼（Sam Altman）说过这样一句话：“除了思考要做什么之外，你应该对任何事情都有很高的标准”，因为选择正确的事情来关注会给你带来 100 或 1,000 倍的结果。

James Clear: Maybe you can work 10% harder.

James Clear：也许你可以再努力 10%。

But if you want 100x the output, you need to direct the attention and energy to something else.

但如果你想要 100 倍的输出，你需要将注意力和精力转移到其他事情上。

And I think that creating space to rest, to reflect, and review allows that opportunity to arise.

我认为创造休息、反思和回顾的空间可以让这个机会出现。

A lot of the executives I talk to, or companies that I speak at, or work with, everybody's just kind of tapped out.

与我交谈过的很多高管，或者与我交谈过的公司，或者与我合作过的公司，每个人都有点精疲力竭。

They're working quite hard, and so they keep their head down and try to knock out the things that are on their plate.

他们工作非常努力，所以他们低着头，努力完成手头上的事情。

James Clear: But what they need to do is step back, and relax and think for a moment, to reflect and say, "Are we working on the right things?" I think that's some of the most important time that I have carved out in my week.

詹姆斯·克利尔：但他们需要做的是退后一步，放松并思考一会儿，反思并说：“我们正在做正确的事情吗？”我认为这是我这一周中最重要的一段时间。

I have roughly 30 minutes every Friday, where I just do a weekly review, and there is nothing scheduled.

我每个周五大概有30分钟的时间，只是做每周回顾，没有什么安排。

It's just me thinking about the business.

只是我在考虑生意。

And a lot of the best stuff comes out of that.

许多最好的东西都是由此产生的。

James Clear: I think it'd probably be better if it was three hours instead of 30 minutes, but you need to find at least some time to sit down and think, "Am I directing my precious energy and attention in the right way?" And I think that rest and reflection and relaxation play directly into that.

James Clear：我认为如果是三个小时而不是 30 分钟可能会更好，但你至少需要找一些时间坐下来思考，“我是否以正确的方式引导我宝贵的精力和注意力？”我认为休息、反思和放松直接发挥了作用。

If you're just working, if you're just sprinting all the time, you don't have the space to see the larger picture.

如果你只是在工作，如果你只是一直在冲刺，你就没有空间看到更大的图景。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

I'm really intrigued by this concept of wordlessness, like getting your body and brain into states of, while awake, wordlessness, so not a lot of information coming in about work or really anything.

我对这种无言的概念真的很感兴趣，就像让你的身体和大脑在清醒时进入无言的状态，这样就不会收到很多关于工作或其他任何事情的信息。

Maybe it's the liminal state between awake and sleep.

也许这是清醒和睡眠之间的临界状态。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Some of these NSDR, yoga nidra-type practices, but it's more like hiking or running or swimming, where your brain goes through a period of chatter, and you're thinking about the other thing.

Andrew Huberman：其中一些 NSDR，瑜伽休息术类型的练习，但它更像是徒步旅行、跑步或游泳，你的大脑会经历一段时间的喋喋不休，而你正在思考另一件事。

But then at some point, everything becomes discontinuous in a way, and it...

但到了某个时刻，一切都在某种程度上变得不连续，而且......

Or listening to music.

或者听音乐。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

James Clear: Hiking's the one that does it for me.

James Clear：徒步旅行对我来说是最适合的。

Like, what you're describing right now is like, how I get after maybe an hour into a hike or something.

就像你现在所描述的那样，我在徒步旅行一小时之类的事情后是如何恢复的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Do you get good ideas either coming back from it or on the hike or, you know?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你从旅行回来或徒步旅行中得到了好主意吗？或者，你知道吗？

James Clear: I think the most interesting thing is I feel good.

James Clear：我认为最有趣的是我感觉很好。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: I feel so much better.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我感觉好多了。

You hear these phrases like forest bathing or things like that.

你会听到诸如森林浴之类的短语。

I feel so much better after that than I do after the same amount of time looking at my screen or something like that.

在那之后我感觉比在相同时间看屏幕或类似的东西后感觉好多了。

It's like a completely different state.

这就像一个完全不同的状态。

I think that it almost feels like it taps into something deeply biological, where you're like, "Oh, we are in fact animals." Like, we were intended to live out in the forest.

我认为这几乎感觉就像它触及了一些深刻的生物学东西，你会说，“哦，我们实际上是动物。”就像，我们本来打算住在森林里。

And so, yeah, that state that you're describing, to me, feels how I feel when I hike.

所以，是的，你所描述的那种状态，对我来说，就是我徒步旅行时的感受。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it definitely taps into something, and I think it's multi-variable.

Andrew Huberman：是的，它肯定会涉及到一些东西，而且我认为它是多变量的。

I think it's the full-spectrum light from sunlight.

我认为这是来自阳光的全光谱光。

Turns out anytime you're near greenery, the leaves stay relatively cool even on hot days, and so they'll reflect, surprisingly, because it's not the way you would expect it, based on the physics of the color of green leaves, but there's a lot of infrared light essentially being reflected back on you.

事实证明，只要你靠近绿色植物，即使在炎热的日子里，叶子也会保持相对凉爽，因此令人惊讶的是，它们会反射，因为根据绿叶颜色的物理原理，这不是你所期望的方式，但实际上有很多红外光被反射回你身上。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And that infrared light is not the type that damages your skin.

Andrew Huberman：红外线不会损害您的皮肤。

It is the type that feeds your mitochondria.

它是为线粒体提供营养的类型。

It actually penetrates your body's surface.

它实际上会渗透到您的身体表面。

It literally charges the mitochondria.

它确实为线粒体充电。

So, there's some really interesting things about being in nature, greenery, forest bathing.

所以，身处大自然、绿色植物、森林浴中有一些非常有趣的事情。

James Clear: That's fascinating.

詹姆斯·克利尔：这很有趣。

Andrew Huberman: The grounding folks would get all excited about that.

Andrew Huberman：接地人员会对此感到非常兴奋。

Most people are wearing shoes where they're not actually grounding to the ground, so that's a little bit trickier.

大多数人穿的鞋子实际上并没有接地，所以这有点棘手。

But standing in a stream just feels good with bare feet, obviously.

但显然，赤脚站在溪流中感觉很好。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I think it's a real true, kind of primordial reset, just trekking.

Andrew Huberman：我认为这是一次真正的、原始的重置，只是徒步旅行。

James Clear: The word reset resonates with me, too.

James Clear：“重置”这个词也引起了我的共鸣。

That's how it feels.

就是这样的感觉。

I go on a hike every Wednesday, and it feels like I get to reset.

我每周三都会去徒步旅行，感觉就像我要重新开始。

Andrew Huberman: By yourself or with someone?

Andrew Huberman：你自己还是和别人一起？

James Clear: Yeah, usually by myself.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，通常是我一个人。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: And you're...

安德鲁·休伯曼：而你...

James Clear: Sometimes I'll take a friend, but usually it's by myself.

James Clear：有时我会带一个朋友去，但通常是我一个人去。

Andrew Huberman: You're listening to something, phone?

Andrew Huberman：你在听什么吗，电话？

James Clear: Nothing.

詹姆斯·克利尔：没什么。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: Great.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。

James Clear: No. Yeah, it's just me in the woods.

詹姆斯·克利尔：没有。是的，只有我在树林里。

Andrew Huberman: Nice.

安德鲁·休伯曼：很好。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: That's awesome.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

James Clear: Like, gradually becoming more of a mountain man each year.

詹姆斯·克利尔：就像，每年逐渐变得更像一个山里人。

Andrew Huberman: That's great.

安德鲁·休伯曼：那太好了。

I mean, I think there is this return to things that are more, you know, in real life, as they say.

我的意思是，我认为正如他们所说，这种回归更多的是现实生活中的事情。

I think that the ability to reset is such a huge part of being a great, you know, anything.

我认为重置的能力是成为伟大事物的重要组成部分。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Because if you can't...

安德鲁·休伯曼：因为如果你不能......

Yeah, just fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, it eventually gives way.

是的，只是战斗、战斗、战斗、战斗、战斗，最终还是让步了。

It makes me want to bring something up that you raised earlier, and I should've asked then.

这让我想提出你之前提出的一些问题，我当时就应该问。

This notion of identity.

这种身份观念。

I think one of the reasons that it's so hard for people to relax and reset or to shift their life to a different mode of focus, for instance, you said you had this online blog, and then you decided to focus on the book, and then now, you're doing a number of other things.

我认为人们很难放松和重置或将他们的生活转移到不同的焦点模式的原因之一，例如，你说你有这个在线博客，然后你决定专注于这本书，然后现在，你正在做许多其他事情。

It's kind of interesting to explore how we catalog wins or how we carry our wins as well as our losses.

探索我们如何记录胜利或如何记录我们的胜利和损失是很有趣的。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Because I think a lot of people, they'll publish a book.

安德鲁·休伯曼：因为我认为很多人都会出版一本书。

If they're lucky, it has half the success of "Atomic Habits." But then they feel like they either have to do it again or they have to do something to sort of maintain the buoyancy of that experience out there in the world as opposed to just being able to shelve it in their mind.

如果他们幸运的话，它的成功率就达到了《原子习惯》的一半。但随后他们觉得自己要么必须再做一次，要么必须做一些事情来维持这种经历在世界上的活力，而不是仅仅将其搁置在脑海中。

Like, "That was awesome." Listen, "Atomic Habits" is a super impressive book, and it's done incredibly well for all the right reasons.

就像，“那太棒了。”听着，《原子习惯》是一本超级令人印象深刻的书，而且由于所有正确的原因，它的表现令人难以置信。

Andrew Huberman: And one could say, "Okay, did that.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：人们可以说，“好吧，就这么做了。

Like, next thing." And some people can do that.

就像，下一步。”有些人可以做到这一点。

You mentioned Waitzkin.

你提到了维茨金。

Josh is a friend, and he just has this incredible ability to be like, "I'm done playing chess."

乔什是一位朋友，他有一种令人难以置信的能力，可以说“我不再下棋了”。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: "I'm doing the next thing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：“我正在做下一件事。

I'm done doing that." Like, he really can cut ties with his previous self.

我已经受够了。”就像，他真的可以和以前的自己断绝关系了。

I think most people find that difficult.

我想大多数人都觉得这很困难。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: We feel like we need to succeed where we succeeded before, or else it no longer is real.

Andrew Huberman：我们觉得我们需要在以前成功的地方取得成功，否则它就不再是真实的。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: How often do you play with the idea of habits and identity, and kind of, what you're on the precipice of now?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你多久会考虑一下习惯和身份的概念，以及你现在正处于什么边缘？

James Clear: It's an interesting question.

詹姆斯·克利尔：这是一个有趣的问题。

I saw this with a number of the things that I researched when I was writing the book, stories that came up, and then I've also felt it, personally.

我在写这本书时研究过的一些事情和出现的故事中看到了这一点，然后我个人也感受到了这一点。

Some examples.

一些例子。

I heard from one guy when I was writing the book who was in the military.

当我写这本书时，我听到一个在军队服役的人的来信。

Then he leaves, and he's like, "My identity for the last 20 years is I was a soldier.

然后他离开了，他说：“过去 20 年我的身份是一名士兵。

Now, I'm not, so who am I, basically?"And then, another common one that you hear is from athletes.

现在，我不是，那么我基本上是谁？”然后，你听到的另一个常见的说法是来自运动员。

James Clear: I felt this way, and I didn't even play professionally.

James Clear：我也有这种感觉，而且我什至没有打过职业比赛。

But I played all the way through college.

但我一直打到大学。

You get to the end of your senior year, "I've been doing this for 17 years now." And then all of a sudden, the next day, you're not an athlete anymore.

到了大四结束时，“我已经这样做了 17 年了。”然后突然之间，第二天，你就不再是一名运动员了。

"So, who am I?

“那么，我是谁？

This is a huge part of my identity." And so, you can also imagine, founders when they sell their company or CEOs after having a long run and the...

这是我身份的重要组成部分。”因此，你也可以想象，创始人在长期运营后出售公司或首席执行官时......

It's just like you have something that was a huge part of your life, and now you're not.

就好像你曾经拥有一些曾经是你生活中很重要的一部分的东西，但现在却不是了。

I heard from a mother the other day who said, "I'm suddenly an empty nester.

有一天，我听到一位母亲说：“我突然变成了一个空巢老人。

25 years I've been taking care of these kids.

25年来我一直在照顾这些孩子。

Now all of them have moved out.

现在他们都搬走了。

What am I doing?

我在做什么？

What is my purpose?"

我的目的是什么？”

James Clear: So, I think it's very common for people to have something like that, an identity that they feel like they've lost.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我认为人们拥有这样的东西是很常见的，他们觉得自己已经失去了一种身份。

And for me, the thing that helped the most was trying to find through lines from that previous identity that can still serve me in the new season.

对我来说，最有帮助的是试图从以前的身份中找到在新赛季仍然可以为我服务的台词。

So, you take the soldier example.

所以，你以士兵为例。

Yeah, they're not a soldier anymore, but they can still be a good teammate.

是的，他们不再是士兵了，但他们仍然可以成为一个很好的队友。

They can be the type of person who follows through on their mission.

他们可以是那种贯彻自己使命的人。

They can be somebody who's reliable and can be counted on.

他们可以是可靠且值得信赖的人。

James Clear: And then you start to look at the parts of your past where you were that kind of person, and then look at your current situation.

詹姆斯·克利尔：然后你开始审视过去你是那种人的部分，然后审视你现在的处境。

Where can you express those traits again?

你可以在哪里再次表达这些特质？

In my little case as an entrepreneur, I always emphasize being an entrepreneur and a creator, more than I did being an author.

在我作为一名企业家的小事例中，我总是强调成为一名企业家和创造者，而不是作为一名作家。

I kind of have to admit that I'm an author now because I have the book, but really, what I see myself as is an entrepreneur.

我不得不承认我现在是一名作家，因为我有这本书，但实际上，我认为自己是一名企业家。

James Clear: And so, the shift from blog to book to co-founding companies or like that, to me, that feels connected because I have that story as the through line.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，从博客到书籍，再到共同创办公司或类似的转变，对我来说，感觉是有联系的，因为我有这个故事作为主线。

So, I don't know that it's really about abandoning your past in any way or saying that, "Oh, that didn't happen, or it happened in a different way." It's just about finding the parts of the experience that you can hold onto and feel proud of, and carry into your next chapter.

所以，我不知道这真的是要以任何方式放弃你的过去，或者说，“哦，那没有发生，或者它以不同的方式发生了。”这只是找到你可以坚持并感到自豪的体验部分，并将其带入你的下一个篇章。

James Clear: Not everything goes on forever.

詹姆斯·克利尔：并不是所有事情都会永远持续下去。

Basically, nothing does.

基本上，什么都没有。

And that's fine.

那很好。

It's okay.

没关系。

It doesn't need to last forever.

它不需要永远持续下去。

You can still feel very proud of what it was, but let's try to find some pieces of it that we can take with us to the next thing.

你仍然可以对它的内容感到非常自豪，但让我们尝试找到其中的一些片段，以便我们可以将其带到下一件事中。

Andrew Huberman: Along the lines of identity, it sounds like you are very content with understanding where you're at, where you were before, and where you're headed next.

Andrew Huberman：沿着身份的思路，听起来你非常满足于了解自己现在的位置、之前的位置以及下一步的去向。

I think where people get tripped up is that they want to be understood by the outside world, or they have a hard time cutting ties with how the outside world understands them.

我认为人们被绊倒的地方在于他们希望被外界理解，或者他们很难切断与外界如何理解他们的联系。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Like, if I ask, "Who's James Clear?" And it says like, "The author," you know?

安德鲁·休伯曼：就像，如果我问“詹姆斯·克莱尔是谁？”它说的是“作者”，你知道吗？

It can be harder for people to cut ties with that.

人们可能更难与之断绝联系。

I've seen this in a lot of professions and friends who are very, very successful.

我在很多非常非常成功的职业和朋友身上看到了这一点。

The entrepreneur example, founder example is a very important one, I think.

我认为企业家的例子、创始人的例子是非常重要的。

I've seen a few times on X, and other social platforms, of founders that sell their companies for half a billion dollars, a billion dollars.

我在 X 和其他社交平台上见过几次创始人以 5 亿美元、10 亿美元的价格出售自己的公司。

Andrew Huberman: And I'm from Silicon Valley, so you end up knowing some of these people over time.

Andrew Huberman：我来自硅谷，所以随着时间的推移，你最终会认识其中一些人。

And inevitably, they don't feel good a few days later.

不可避免地，几天后他们会感觉不舒服。

It's like a postpartum depression of sorts.

这就像某种产后抑郁症。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And it's because for them it was the hunt, and now what?

安德鲁·休伯曼：这是因为对他们来说这是狩猎，现在怎么办？

And if they don't prepare for that, actually, it can be catastrophic.

如果他们不为此做好准备，实际上，这可能是灾难性的。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: People say, "Oh, poor billionaires," you know?

安德鲁·休伯曼：人们说，“哦，可怜的亿万富翁”，你知道吗？

But I think it's more of a model for what we all experience.

但我认为它更像是我们所有人经历的一个模型。

So, I think these titles that we tell ourselves we have, and that we're living into, are powerful but double-edged.

所以，我认为我们告诉自己我们拥有的、我们正在生活的这些头衔是强大的，但也是一把双刃剑。

James Clear: Yep, for sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，当然。

Andrew Huberman: And where we glean the most feedback about our identity from people, I think, is also dangerous because it can hold us in place in a major way.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我认为，我们从人们那里收集最多关于我们身份的反馈也是危险的，因为它可以在很大程度上让我们保持原样。

James Clear: So, two things.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，有两件事。

First is, you see...

首先是，你看...

The founder example shows it very explicitly because there's this exit for a large amount of money.

创始人的例子非常明确地表明了这一点，因为有大量资金可以退出。

But it can be true for anything.

但这对任何事情都是正确的。

You see why you should optimize for playing the game and not necessarily winning the game, right?

您明白为什么您应该针对玩游戏进行优化而不一定要赢得游戏，对吧？

The win is, do you get to continue to keep playing?

胜利在于，你能继续玩下去吗？

And so, in a lot of ways, we glamorize these outcomes.

因此，我们在很多方面美化这些结果。

But in fact, it's like, how do you want to spend your days?

但事实上，这就像，你想如何度过你的日子？

James Clear: When I choose a new project to focus on, one of the first questions that I ask is, " How do I want to spend my days?" And then you draw a box around what you want that to look like.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当我选择一个要关注的新项目时，我问的第一个问题是“我想如何度过我的日子？”然后你在你想要的样子周围画一个框。

And inside that box, how can you make the biggest impact, make the most money, reach the most people, whatever?

在这个盒子里，你如何才能产生最大的影响，赚最多的钱，接触到最多的人，等等？

But not outside of it.

但不在它之外。

But what happens a lot of the time is people start by asking the second question, which is, "How can I make the biggest impact or make the most money or reach the most people?"

但很多时候人们会问第二个问题，即“我怎样才能产生最大的影响或赚最多的钱或接触到最多的人？”

James Clear: And then, they talk themselves into a daily life that is outside of what that box would contain.

詹姆斯·克利尔：然后，他们说服自己进入盒子之外的日常生活。

And you find that this is not actually how I want to spend my days.

你发现这其实并不是我想要的度过日子的方式。

Or you optimize for the outcome, like the founder selling for 500 million dollars, and not for the daily lifestyle.

或者你针对结果进行优化，就像创始人以 5 亿美元出售一样，而不是针对日常生活方式。

And really, that's what matters the most, is do you like how you spend your days?

事实上，这才是最重要的，你喜欢你如何度过每一天吗？

Do you have power over your days?

你有权力掌控你的日子吗？

Do you feel alive during your days?

在你的日子里，你感觉自己还活着吗？

James Clear: And so, it requires you to ask a different question than what most people are asking most of the time, or what society in general is asking us most of the time.

詹姆斯·克利尔：因此，它要求你提出一个与大多数人大多数时候问的问题不同的问题，或者与整个社会大多数时候问我们的问题不同的问题。

Andrew Huberman: I'm just very impressed, to be completely candid, I'm very impressed by how self-identified you are with your role at a given stage of your work life.

Andrew Huberman：坦白说，我对你在工作生活的特定阶段对自己角色的自我认同感印象深刻。

And now, I know you have a family, et cetera.

现在，我知道你有一个家庭等等。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And Josh Waitzkin as well.

安德鲁·休伯曼：还有乔什·维茨金。

He grew up a chess player, this chess prodigy, the movie about him.

他从小就是一名国际象棋棋手，这位国际象棋神童，还有一部关于他的电影。

There were all the bricks stacked for him to stay in that role, maybe not forever, but to hold onto that identity.

为了让他继续担任这个角色，也许不是永远，但要保持这个身份，他已经做好了一切准备。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And he just cut ties.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他就断绝了联系。

He never played another game of chess.

他再也没有下过国际象棋。

And he'll talk about chess, and he'll talk about it with great affection and also with a little bit of pain about some of the painful points of it.

他会谈论国际象棋，他会带着极大的感情谈论它，也会带着一点痛苦谈论它的一些痛苦点。

But he was able to just cut the cord and be the next version of himself, and the next version.

但他能够切断电源，成为下一个版本的自己，下一个版本。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And not just at the time where he started a family, because that's the most transformative step, right, for everybody.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不仅仅是在他组建家庭的时候，因为这对每个人来说都是最具变革性的一步，对吧。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: Because you have all these new roles that you're suddenly in.

Andrew Huberman：因为你突然扮演了所有这些新角色。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: But in terms of professional, in terms of artistic roles, creator roles, entrepreneur roles, I think most people have a very hard time breaking the mold that they've stepped into.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：但就专业而言，就艺术角色、创作者角色、企业家角色而言，我认为大多数人都很难打破他们所进入的模式。

Jim Carrey is another example.

金凯瑞是另一个例子。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: He just basically left Hollywood.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他基本上离开了好莱坞。

He was like, "I solved it."

他说：“我解决了。”

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: He's like, "I got the..." Highest paid actor in the world, I think, at one point.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他就像是，“我得到了……”我认为，他曾经是世界上收入最高的演员。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And then he was just like most successful by other accounts, too, and it was just like, "I'm done." And we're like, "What?"

安德鲁·休伯曼：然后他就像其他帐户中最成功的人一样，就像，“我完成了。”我们就像，“什么？”

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And it still boggles the mind.

Andrew Huberman：这仍然令人难以置信。

He's like, "But it's so beautiful," right?

他说：“但是它太漂亮了，”对吧？

He's like, "I'm out." And as long as they're doing it for themselves, it's great.

他说：“我出去了。”只要他们为自己做这件事，那就太好了。

James Clear: Yes, yeah.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，是的。

And there's no playbook, right?

而且没有剧本，对吧？

Obviously.

明显地。

Like, everybody has to choose for themselves.

就像，每个人都必须为自己选择。

How long do you want to stay in this role, or emphasize this identity, or move on to something else?

你想在这个角色上呆多久，或者强调这个身份，或者转向其他岗位？

But I do think that what you're saying is revealing a deep and important truth, which is that identity is a double-edged sword.

但我确实认为你所说的揭示了一个深刻而重要的事实，那就是身份是一把双刃剑。

And earlier in this conversation, we were talking about how building habits and repeating habits casts votes for your desired identity.

在本次对话的早些时候，我们讨论了养成习惯和重复习惯如何为你想要的身份投票。

James Clear: It provides evidence of being that kind of person.

詹姆斯·克利尔：它提供了成为这种人的证据。

And that's a very helpful thing because it gets habits to stick and habits to build, and you start to take pride in being that type of person, and you fight to maintain the habits.

这是一件非常有帮助的事情，因为它可以让你坚持并养成习惯，你开始为自己是这样的人而感到自豪，并且你会努力保持这些习惯。

But in the long run, you can also see that the tighter that you cling to any given identity, the harder it becomes to grow beyond it.

但从长远来看，你也可以看到，你对某个特定身份的执着越紧，就越难超越它。

James Clear: And so, you see all kinds of examples like this, right?

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，你会看到各种各样这样的例子，对吗？

You have a surgeon who's done an operation a certain way for 15 years and has a long list of patients who have gotten good outcomes.

您有一位外科医生，他以某种方式进行了 15 年的手术，并且拥有一长串获得良好结果的患者名单。

And then a new technology comes in, and they resist it or are kind of slow to take it up, because they want to do it their way, and then all of a sudden, five years later, they're behind the curve.

然后新技术出现，他们抵制它，或者接受它的速度有点慢，因为他们想按照自己的方式去做，然后突然间，五年后，他们落后了。

Or, you have a teacher who has always done her lesson plans a certain way for 20 years, and then YouTube comes along, and she needs to utilize it, but she doesn't want to.

或者，你有一位老师 20 年来一直以某种方式制定课程计划，然后 YouTube 出现了，她需要使用它，但她不想这样做。

And then all of a sudden, five years later, they're behind the curve.

五年后，突然间，他们落后了。

James Clear: And it's true for many other things too.

詹姆斯·克利尔：对于许多其他事情也是如此。

It could just be somebody who stays on a given path for too long.

可能只是某个人在一条既定的道路上停留太久了。

But the more that you grip to that identity, the harder it becomes to grow.

但你越是牢牢抓住这个身份，成长就越困难。

And so, the way that I view it is, the identity is very helpful early on.

因此，我认为，身份在早期非常有帮助。

You're getting a habit established.

你正在养成一种习惯。

It helps you become that type of person that you want to be.

它可以帮助您成为您想成为的那种人。

It's like a painting that is always being retouched.

就像一幅永远被修饰的画。

The image is never staying totally the same.

图像永远不会保持完全相同。

There are parts of your identity that are more fixed than others.

你的身份的某些部分比其他部分更加固定。

You know, I'm tall, I'm a father.

你知道，我很高，我是一个父亲。

Like, that stuff's not going to change.

就像，这些东西不会改变。

James Clear: But there are also big parts of your identity that are always going to fade and ebb and flow and change with time.

詹姆斯·克利尔：但是你的身份的很大一部分总是会随着时间的推移而褪色、潮起、流动和变化。

And maybe you will never play a chess game again.

也许你再也不会下棋了。

Maybe that part of your identity is in the past.

也许你的那部分身份已经成为过去。

But whatever it is, it's always being touched and edited.

但无论是什么，它总是被触及和编辑的。

And so I think that willingness to reinvent yourself, to edit as time goes on.

所以我认为随着时间的推移，你会愿意重塑自己，进行编辑。

Life is dynamic.

生活是动态的。

It's not static.

它不是静态的。

And so, you need a willingness to continue to reinvent and edit as you go.

因此，您需要愿意继续进行改造和编辑。

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.

Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“八睡”表示感谢。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity.

八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.

确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。

And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.

这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.

为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。

Andrew Huberman: Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.

Andrew Huberman：Eight Sleep 会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。

I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.

我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。

The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.

最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。

This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.

这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。

It has so many incredible features.

它有很多令人难以置信的功能。

Andrew Huberman: For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called "Autopilot," which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.

Andrew Huberman：例如，Pod 5 有一个名为“Autopilot”的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习您的睡眠模式，然后在不同睡眠阶段调整您的睡眠环境温度。

It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.

如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to 350 dollars off the new Pod 5.

如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元的优惠。

Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.

八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to 350 dollars.

再次强调，访问八sleep.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。

Andrew Huberman: I love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。

I think it's something that at every stage of life is very relevant to how people decide to show up.

我认为，在人生的每个阶段，这与人们决定如何表现都非常相关。

I think I'm recalling that when I started studying neuroscience, there was no field of neuroscience, but they had a textbook, I think it was biological psychology or something like that, or physiology.

我想我记得当我开始学习神经科学时，没有神经科学领域，但他们有一本教科书，我认为是生物心理学或类似的东西，或生理学。

Can't remember the book.

不记得书了。

But they had pictures of some of the luminaries in the field.

但他们有一些该领域杰出人物的照片。

There were so few people, you could actually put that in the kind of jacket of the book.

人太少了，你可以把它放进书的封面里。

James Clear: Five of them.

詹姆斯·克利尔：五个。

Here they are.

他们在这里。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and they had their pictures, and I'll never forget, there were little quotes below.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，他们有照片，我永远不会忘记，下面有一些引言。

And one guy, I don't even know who it was because I have a pretty good handle on neuroscience history, but I don't remember who it was, but he said, his quote was, "I enjoy doing research more than eating." And I thought, "Sounds like a really cool profession." I already liked biology, but I was like, "How cool would that be?" I mean, everyone loves to eat.

还有一个人，我什至不知道那是谁，因为我对神经科学历史有很好的掌握，但我不记得那是谁，但他说，他的引言是，“我更喜欢做研究而不是吃饭。”我想，“听起来真是一个很酷的职业。”我已经喜欢生物学了，但我想，“那该多酷啊？”我的意思是，每个人都喜欢吃。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Almost everyone loves to eat.

Andrew Huberman：几乎每个人都喜欢吃。

I'm like, "How cool is that?" He loves it more than eating.

我想，“那有多酷？”他爱它胜过爱吃。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I was like, "Wow." And I think, eventually, I experienced that, how much fun doing experiments is and...

安德鲁·休伯曼：我当时想，“哇。”我想，最终我体会到了，做实验是多么有趣，而且……

But at the same time, I think that, yeah, the danger is people get into a mode where they can't shift.

但与此同时，我认为，是的，危险在于人们进入了一种无法转变的模式。

There's another piece, too, which has to do with recognition, of either large scale, like the kind of recognition you've achieved, or smaller scale, like in a community or in a family.

还有另一部分与认可有关，无论是大规模的，比如你所获得的认可，还是小规模的，比如在社区或家庭中。

There's this great moment in the movie, "Basquiat," about Jean-Michel Basquiat, the painter.

关于画家让·米歇尔·巴斯奎特的电影《巴斯奎特》中有一个伟大的时刻。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Where he's having a conversation with his friend about fame, and how it can contaminate the creative process.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：他正在和他的朋友谈论名气，以及名气如何影响创作过程。

And the essence of it is basically, and we'll put a link to it, it's really good.

它的本质基本上是，我们会放一个链接，它真的很好。

Benicio del Toro's doing most of the talking, so even just listening to him talk is fun.

本尼西奥·德尔·托罗（Benicio del Toro）负责大部分讲话，因此即使只是听他讲话也很有趣。

Andrew Huberman: But the content is great, too.

Andrew Huberman：但是内容也很棒。

And the essence of it is that if you become known for something that's not the most important thing to you, or work that you did is recognized, but not for the reasons that you did it, that there's this kind of mismatch.

其本质是，如果你因某些对你来说不是最重要的事情而出名，或者你所做的工作得到认可，但不是因为你这样做的原因，那就存在这种不匹配。

And the big mistake is seeking to be understood in the way that you want to be understood.

最大的错误就是寻求以你希望被理解的方式被理解。

And for every level of what you do to be understood.

并且让你所做的每一个层面都得到理解。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I think this is when criticism starts to hurt, is when it starts to feel like a misunderstanding of how genuine you are about your work, or they're just getting it all wrong.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这是批评开始造成伤害的时候，是当人们开始感觉你对自己工作的真诚程度产生误解的时候，或者他们完全搞错了的时候。

Like, they're looking at the right things, but they're getting it wrong because they don't understand your motivation.

就像，他们正在寻找正确的东西，但他们做错了，因为他们不理解你的动机。

And I think one of the most powerful things is to develop habits that are really around your understanding of who you are and why you're there.

我认为最有力的事情之一就是养成习惯，真正围绕你对自己是谁以及你为何存在的理解。

Andrew Huberman: And yes, you want to achieve these milestones and the feedback.

Andrew Huberman：是的，您希望实现这些里程碑和反馈。

But when the feedback comes, be very cognizant of, like, that doesn't change why you did it.

但是当反馈到来时，要非常清楚，这不会改变你这样做的原因。

They can't actually change...

他们实际上无法改变...

You have to take control of your own thoughts is really what we're...

你必须控制自己的想法，这就是我们...

And your own goal process.

以及你自己的目标过程。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Otherwise, it can really destroy people.

Andrew Huberman：否则，它真的会毁了人。

It destroyed Jean-Michel.

它摧毁了让-米歇尔。

I mean, he was a heroin addict, and he died, I think, of AIDS or a heroin overdose or both, I don't recall.

我的意思是，他是一名海洛因成瘾者，我认为他是死于艾滋病或海洛因过量或两者兼而有之，我不记得了。

But it clearly destroys artists when they achieve success, but they're not understood, and I think it can destroy entrepreneurs, too.

但当艺术家取得成功时，它显然会摧毁他们，但他们不被理解，我认为它也会摧毁企业家。

James Clear: It's been an interesting learning experience with "Atomic Habits." Really, there is no one version of "Atomic Habits." There are 25 million versions.

James Clear：这是一次有趣的“原子习惯”学习经历。确实，《原子习惯》没有单一版本。有2500万个版本。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: And it's what those 25 million people who have read it have thought, and I don't have control over any of them.

詹姆斯·克利尔：这就是 2500 万读过这本书的人的想法，我无法控制他们中的任何一个。

You know, I have...

你知道，我有...

Andrew Huberman: It's very uncomfortable, right?

Andrew Huberman：这很不舒服，对吧？

James Clear: Yeah, it's interesting.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，这很有趣。

Andrew Huberman: You have to come to terms with it.

Andrew Huberman：你必须接受它。

Yeah, you have to come to terms with it.

是的，你必须接受它。

James Clear: I've come to accept it.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我已经接受了这一点。

I've come to accept it.

我已经接受了。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

James Clear: And even to the point now, where it's the highest-rated habits book of all time, which really grateful for that.

詹姆斯·克利尔：甚至到现在为止，它仍然是有史以来评价最高的习惯书，对此我们真的很感激。

And obviously, one of the best-selling books of all time.

显然，这是有史以来最畅销的书之一。

Andrew Huberman: Awesome.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

Andrew Huberman: It's always sitting up there on the best-seller nonfiction list.

安德鲁·休伯曼：它总是位列非小说类畅销书排行榜上。

James Clear: This is what is crazy.

詹姆斯·克利尔：这就是疯狂的地方。

I just found out about this, but I think it's one of the top 100-selling books ever.

我刚刚知道这本书，但我认为它是有史以来最畅销的 100 本书之一。

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

James Clear: It's been out for seven years.

James Clear：它已经问世七年了。

Andrew Huberman: Awesome.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

James Clear: But anyway, all of that is great.

詹姆斯·克利尔：但无论如何，这一切都很棒。

Andrew Huberman: No, it's wonderful.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不，这太棒了。

I mean...

我的意思是...

James Clear: My point is that I can just trust that it's good now.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我的观点是，我可以相信现在一切都很好。

Is it ideal?

理想吗？

No. Is it a perfect book?

不，这是一本完美的书吗？

No, there's no perfect book.

不，没有完美的书。

Would I do some things differently if I could write it again today?

如果我今天可以再写一次，我会做一些不同的事情吗？

Yeah, probably.

是的，可能是。

What would I edit?

我要编辑什么？

Whatever.

任何。

But I can trust that it's good, and that's good enough for me.

但我可以相信它很好，这对我来说已经足够了。

The fact that there are 25 million interpretations of it, or that some people won't like it, or...

事实上，它有 2500 万种解释，或者有些人不喜欢它，或者……

It's fine.

没关系。

It's fine.

没关系。

James Clear: I've heard from a couple of people who have had projects, some of them I've talked to, some of them I haven't, but I heard...

詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）：我听说过一些有过项目的人，其中一些我和他们谈过，有些我还没有，但我听说……

Someone told me that Adele, when she wrote "Someone Like You," she was like, "The best song that I'll ever make is behind me now." And that's kind of depressing in some way.

有人告诉我，阿黛尔在写《Someone Like You》时说，“我创作的最好的歌曲现在已经过去了。”这在某种程度上令人沮丧。

And I don't feel that way about "Atomic Habits." I'm like, it can just be a project that I worked really hard on, and did my best, and it went well, and that's fine.

我对“原子习惯”没有这种感觉。我想，这可能只是一个我非常努力工作、尽了最大努力的项目，而且进展顺利，这很好。

That's all it has to be, and I can move on and do the next thing and try to do my best with that.

这就是一切，我可以继续前进，做下一件事，并尽力做到最好。

James Clear: It doesn't have to become your whole identity.

James Clear：它不必成为你的全部身份。

Which, I guess, ties back to the point that you're trying to make, which is that, in order to have a healthy identity, and in order to let it grow through these different seasons of life, you can't get too fixated on what other people think about it.

我想，这与你想要表达的观点有关，那就是，为了拥有一个健康的身份，并让它在人生的不同季节中成长，你不能太关注别人的想法。

I find that whenever I'm worried about what someone else thinks, I'm usually not actually worried about a particular person.

我发现每当我担心别人的想法时，我通常并不真正担心某个特定的人。

James Clear: I have some story about what they're saying about me.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我有一些关于他们对我的评价的故事。

But if you pin me down and you say, "Well, do you care what Sarah thinks?" I'm like, "Well, no, I'm not actually worried about what she thinks." What I'm worried about is this collective imaginary "they" in my head.

但如果你把我压住并说：“好吧，你关心莎拉怎么想吗？”我想，“好吧，不，我实际上并不担心她的想法。”我担心的是我脑子里这个集体想象的“他们”。

And so, you're like, "Oh, it's actually fictional." And realizing that and releasing yourself from that fear a little bit, I think, helps you maybe move on to the next thing that you need to do.

所以，你会说，“哦，这实际上是虚构的。”我认为，认识到这一点并将自己从恐惧中释放出来，也许可以帮助你继续做下一件你需要做的事情。

Andrew Huberman: It's clear you have a healthy relationship to this whole thing, not just the success of the book, which is definitely earned, but the identity piece, which, again, I think can happen at the scale of two people.

安德鲁·休伯曼：很明显，你与整件事有着健康的关系，不仅仅是这本书的成功，这是绝对值得的，还有身份作品，我认为这可以在两个人的规模上发生。

Right?

正确的？

We do something for someone else, we want to better serve them or the relationship.

我们为别人做一些事情，我们想更好地为他们或我们的关系服务。

But people generally want to, not just be seen for the effort, but they want to be understood for why they did it, maybe just because they're a nice person and they want to be...

但人们通常不仅希望被人看到他们的努力，还希望被理解他们这样做的原因，也许只是因为他们是一个好人，他们想成为……

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And this whole notion of trying to hold onto, or to grasp the understanding of motivation, it does not work.

安德鲁·休伯曼：试图坚持或掌握对动机的理解的整个概念是行不通的。

It doesn't work at the level of...

根本就达不到这个水平...

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: The only time it works is when there's just one of you and what's true for yourself.

安德鲁·休伯曼：只有当你们只有一个人并且做对自己来说是真实的事情时，它才起作用。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I think that's the thing to hold onto.

Andrew Huberman：我认为这是应该坚持的事情。

And I think it's very important, this notion of feedback from other people.

我认为来自其他人的反馈的概念非常重要。

I think the story that people start to create for themselves if they get critique, not just in the public space, but from anyone, is that I do think that people tend to map it to some story in their head about their family, like, they had an alcoholic parent, or no one's really succeeded.

我认为，如果人们受到批评，不仅是在公共场所，而且是来自任何人，他们就会开始为自己创造故事，我确实认为人们倾向于将其映射到他们脑海中关于他们家庭的一些故事，比如，他们有一个酗酒的父母，或者没有人真正成功。

I mean, this is why it's hard, I do think, for people to break through in new environments.

我的意思是，我确实认为这就是为什么人们很难在新环境中取得突破。

Andrew Huberman: You know, they're the first person in their family to go to university or something like that, or to play a competitive sport at a certain level.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：你知道，他们是家里第一个上大学或类似的人，或者参加一定水平的竞技运动的人。

And so, when the failure comes back, an instance of failure, I think they map it to what this means about me as a person.

因此，当失败再次出现时，我认为他们将其映射到这对我作为一个人意味着什么。

I'm fated.

我是有缘分的

My family line, my history, is fated.

我的家族血统，我的历史，都是命中注定的。

Like, all this "fating-to-be" stuff is very dangerous, but I can tell you based on growing up where I grew up, and being surrounded by the people I'm surrounded by, that the people who have never had a story of failure or trauma or difficulty, they're the most terrified.

就像，所有这些“命中注定”的东西都是非常危险的，但我可以告诉你，基于我长大的地方，以及我周围的人，那些从未经历过失败、创伤或困难的人，他们是最害怕的。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And they are actually the most vulnerable.

Andrew Huberman：他们实际上是最脆弱的。

Most of the people I've known that have self-harmed in sometimes very serious, irreversible ways, or just completely crashed their lives, and they were just glowing examples of what's possible in creativity and performance, academics, sport, all this, are people that had never failed until they failed.

我认识的大多数人有时会以非常严重、不可逆转的方式自残，或者完全毁掉自己的生活，他们只是创造力和表现、学术、体育等方面的光辉典范，他们是那些在失败之前从未失败过的人。

And I think it gets to this very point.

我认为事情已经到了这一步。

James Clear: This is something that I think, it doesn't have to be sports.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我认为这并不一定是体育运动。

Sports just happens to be how I learned it.

体育恰好是我学习它的方式。

There are many ways to do it.

有很多方法可以做到这一点。

I think, really, what it probably comes down to is performing publicly or performing with a risk of failure.

我认为，实际上，这可能归结为公开表演或冒着失败的风险进行表演。

But for me, it's one of, I think, the best lessons that I pulled out of playing sports, is what it feels like to fail publicly, and getting over that.

但对我来说，我认为这是我从体育运动中学到的最好的教训之一，那就是公开失败的感觉，然后克服它。

Nobody wants to strike out to end the game, but if you do, you feel terrible for a little bit, and then you realize you move on.

没有人愿意三振结束比赛，但如果你这么做了，你会感觉有点糟糕，然后你意识到你要继续前进。

James Clear: When I got to college, you go into the gym, and you're training with the rest of the team, and you're a freshman, and you're weaker than the other guys, and that doesn't feel good, but you miss a set, and then you move on, and you go do the next exercise.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当我上大学时，你走进体育馆，和球队的其他成员一起训练，你是一名新生，你比其他人更弱，这感觉不太好，但你错过了一组，然后你继续前进，然后你去做下一个练习。

And all those are little moments of failure that you have to learn how to get over and get through.

所有这些都是失败的小时刻，你必须学会​​如何克服和度过。

And each time that you do, you are training this muscle of learning what it's like to rebound.

每次你这样做，你都在训练这种肌肉来了解反弹是什么样的。

In a lot of ways, the secret to winning is learning how to lose.

在很多方面，获胜的秘诀就是学习如何失败。

James Clear: It's learning how to bounce back from a loss and figuring out how to show up again the next time despite that.

詹姆斯·克利尔：它正在学习如何从损失中恢复过来，并弄清楚如何在下一次再次出现。

And so, sports was the best way for me to learn that.

因此，运动是我学习这一点的最佳方式。

By the time I got to my senior season, I said, "I don't care.

当我进入大四赛季时，我说：“我不在乎。

I would rather be out there.

我宁愿呆在外面。

I don't want us to lose, but if we're going to lose, put it on my shoulders.

我不想让我们输，但如果我们要输，那就把它放在我的肩上。

I can handle it.

我能应付。

I'll take the loss.

损失我来承担。

I don't want us to lose, but I would rather be out there." And I think that served me really well in my entrepreneurial career, too, because I'll reach, I'll try.

我不想让我们输掉比赛，但我宁愿留在场上。”我认为这对我的创业生涯也很有帮助，因为我会达到目标，我会尝试。

James Clear: And ultimately, what matters is not that you keep winning, but that you keep reaching.

詹姆斯·克利尔：最终，重要的不是你不断获胜，而是你不断达到目标。

And eventually, if you reach enough, something's going to work out for you.

最终，如果你达到了足够的目标，某些事情就会为你带来好处。

But you can't be scared of failure in order for that to work.

但为了让它发挥作用，你不能害怕失败。

You have to be able to know how to lose.

你必须能够知道如何失去。

You have to be able to know how to come back from a loss.

你必须能够知道如何从损失中恢复过来。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that's powerful.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这很强大。

And the fact that you were willing to do it publicly is very powerful because nowadays, I think it's almost always public.

事实上，你愿意公开这样做是非常强大的，因为现在，我认为它几乎总是公开的。

I'm a big fan of Twyla Tharp, the choreographer.

我是编舞家特怀拉·撒普 (Twyla Tharp) 的忠实粉丝。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

She's great.

她很棒。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, she's terrific.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，她很棒。

And she talks about how the important thing as a dancer or a choreographer is to fail a lot in private, so that you don't fail in public.

她谈到，作为一名舞者或编舞者，重要的是要在私下里多次失败，这样你就不会在公共场合失败。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Nowadays, that's much more difficult.

Andrew Huberman：如今，这要困难得多。

Any mistake that's on a stage or a court is going to be on a phone in a video, and it's going to hit the internet.

舞台上或法庭上的任何错误都会通过手机录制成视频，并传到互联网上。

And the more recognizable somebody is, the more famous they are, the harder it is for them to control their perfect reputation.

一个人越出名，越有名，他们就越难控制自己的完美声誉。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: So, we've seen kind of an inversion of how, at least, I was raised, where everyone in the textbooks, whether or not it was Martin Luther King or whether or not it was a sports star, whoever, like they only showed you the best parts of these people's lives.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我们看到了一种倒置，至少是我的成长方式，教科书中的每个人，无论是马丁·路德·金还是体育明星，无论是谁，就像他们只向你展示了这些人生活中最好的部分。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Now, it's all unearthed.

安德鲁·休伯曼：现在，一切都被挖掘出来了。

It's all out there.

一切都在那里。

And so I think, just the act of being online for like a middle school kid is a very scary thing, right?

所以我认为，像中学生一样上网是一件非常可怕的事情，对吗？

Or in high school.

或者在高中。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: If something doesn't go well, like school dances.

Andrew Huberman：如果有事情进展不顺利，比如学校舞会。

I have a niece.

我有一个侄女。

I asked her about the school dance.

我问她关于学校舞会的事。

She's like, "Oh yeah, there's no phones there," right?

她说，“哦，是的，那里没有电话，”对吧？

Which is cool, right?

哪个很酷，对吧？

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: No phones, so that they can just enjoy themselves.

Andrew Huberman：没有电话，这样他们就可以尽情享受。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？

Because reputations and rumors and gossip and drama, it exists at every level.

因为声誉、谣言、八卦和戏剧，它存在于各个层面。

A professor at Stanford, who's a true luminary in the field of biology, he once said to me, he said, "It's all just like high school forever." And I was like, "God, really?" And he's like, "Yeah." He's like, "You can change.

斯坦福大学的一位教授，他是生物学领域真正的杰出人物，他曾经对我说，“这一切就像永远的高中一样。”我当时想，“上帝，真的吗？”他说：“是的。”他说：“你可以改变。

People change." He's like, "But the way people interact and what they talk about and what's most salient, and is rarely what's most important or interesting, and the drama and all that."

人们会改变。”他说，“但是人们互动的方式、他们谈论的内容以及最突出的内容很少是最重要或最有趣的，以及戏剧性的等等。”

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: He's like, "It goes on forever.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他就像是，“这会永远持续下去。

All the whispering, the this and the that." He's like, "It never ends." It's like it's baked into everything.

所有的窃窃私语，这个那个。”他就像是，“它永远不会结束。”就好像它融入了一切。

He didn't say nursery school and elementary school, fortunately.

幸好他没说幼儿园和小学。

But everything from high school forward, he goes, "This is exactly the same." He said, I guess they don't call them old age homes, retirement homes.

但从高中开始，他说，“这都是一模一样的。”他说，我猜他们不会称它们为老年之家、退休之家。

There's drama.

有戏剧。

James Clear: Oh, yeah.

詹姆斯·克利尔：哦，是的。

Andrew Huberman: You know?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道吗？

And you're like, really?

而你，真的吗？

So, I think it's important to recognize.

所以，我认为认识到这一点很重要。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

James Clear: I think there's space for both statements to be true.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我认为这两种说法都有可能是正确的。

So, Twyla Tharp's statement, you make a lot of mistakes in practice so that you perform excellently in public.

所以，特怀拉·撒普（Twyla Tharp）的说法是，你在练习中犯了很多错误，以便你在公共场合表现出色。

That's definitely true, right?

这绝对是真的，对吧？

When I was playing baseball or getting ready for a big test, my dad would sometimes say to me, "If you're nervous before the performance or something, you're worried how the game's going to go or worried about this test you're going to take," he would say, "Trust your preparation."

当我打棒球或准备一场大考试时，我爸爸有时会对我说，“如果你在表演前感到紧张或其他什么，你会担心比赛会如何进行，或者担心你要参加的这次考试，”他会说，“相信你的准备。”

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: And I think there's kind of two messages there.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我认为这有两个信息。

The first is, relax, you're going to be able to perform, whatever.

首先是，放松，你将能够表现出来，无论如何。

But obviously, the second hidden message is you'd better prepare, right?

但显然，第二个隐藏信息是你最好做好准备，对吧？

You need those reps in private in order to perform in public.

为了在公开场合表现，你需要这些代表在私下进行。

And that, I think, is a durable truth that is consistent throughout life.

我认为，这是一个持久的真理，在一生中始终如一。

The person who prepares is in a better position to win.

做好准备的人更容易获胜。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: But then, it's also true that things are more public now than they've ever been before.

詹姆斯·克利尔：但是，现在事情比以往任何时候都更加公开，这也是事实。

I would say this is maybe one of the biggest downsides of your profile rising, as you get more well-known through your work, is that it just creates less space where you can experiment and explore as much.

我想说，这可能是你的知名度上升的最大缺点之一，因为你通过你的工作变得更加出名，它只是创造了更少的空间，你可以尝试和探索尽可能多的空间。

It's a little bit harder for me to just kind of run a light-weight experiment now.

现在对我来说进行轻量级实验有点困难。

It's like, if I make any announcement, people are watching, which is great.

就像，如果我发布任何公告，人们都会观看，这很棒。

That's a huge luxury to have, as the best possible outcome.

这是一种巨大的奢侈，也是最好的结果。

But it just changes how you need to...

但这只是改变了你需要的方式......

I think what it means is you need to be a little more thoughtful about designing a place where you can experiment.

我认为这意味着你需要更加深思熟虑地设计一个可以进行实验的地方。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: And that's like your niece and them not having phones at the dance recital.

詹姆斯·克利尔：这就像你的侄女和他们在舞会上没有手机一样。

They're trying to design a space where people can practice a little bit more easily, without everything being judged as much.

他们试图设计一个空间，让人们可以更轻松地练习，而不会对一切进行过多的评判。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: So, I do think you still need what Twyla Tharp's recommending.

James Clear：所以，我确实认为你仍然需要 Twyla Tharp 的建议。

You need a lot of reps.

你需要很多代表。

But then, maybe now, in modern society, you need to be a little bit more careful about how you structure the spaces to make those reps possible.

但是，也许现在，在现代社会中，您需要更加小心地构建空间以使这些代表成为可能。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, you mentioned this song by Adele, and her feeling or her conclusion that that was the peak.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，你提到了阿黛尔的这首歌，以及她的感觉或她的结论，即那是巅峰。

I think we have to be careful about concluding what's the peak.

我认为我们必须谨慎地得出什么是峰值的结论。

I think we also have to be careful about just continuing to pursue one peak after the next.

我认为我们还必须小心，不要继续追求一个又一个的高峰。

Because, as you said earlier, there's certain things that are legacy.

因为，正如您之前所说，有些东西是遗产。

Like, they really last.

就像，它们真的很持久。

There's one thing I really love about books, music, poetry, or art of all kinds, there are other examples, of course, is that they last forever.

我真正喜欢书籍、音乐、诗歌或各种艺术的一件事，当然还有其他例子，那就是它们永远存在。

James Clear: Durable.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：耐用。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

James Clear: It's a durable medium.

James Clear：这是一种耐用的介质。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

What doesn't last, just like a counterexample, is anything that's in the media.

就像反例一样，媒体上的任何内容都不会持久。

The turnover cycle is, it just doesn't last.

周转周期是，它只是不会持续。

I sometimes think about what's really legacy content on the internet, and I think a couple of things come to mind.

有时我会思考互联网上真正的遗留内容是什么，我认为有几件事会浮现在我的脑海中。

It's just a partial list.

这只是部分列表。

But the 2015 commencement speech that Steve Jobs gave at Stanford, I think, stands as legacy content, is great value to many people.

但我认为，史蒂夫·乔布斯 (Steve Jobs) 在斯坦福大学发表的 2015 年毕业典礼演讲作为遗产内容，对许多人来说具有很大的价值。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: There are so many TED Talks, and many of them are excellent.

Andrew Huberman：TED 演讲有很多，而且很多都非常精彩。

Very few get signal the noise that you could predict will make them on their, you know, 15 years from now.

很少有人能察觉到你可以预测 15 年后他们会受到噪音的影响。

But if we were to look at scientific publishing, the same thing is true, right?

但如果我们看看科学出版，同样的情况也是如此，对吧？

There are very few papers that stand the test of time, not because they were wrong, but they get replaced by a kind of a field of review.

经得起时间考验的论文很少，不是因为它们错了，而是因为它们被某种领域的评论所取代。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Academic reviews basically come to replace the papers that they describe over time.

Andrew Huberman：随着时间的推移，学术评论基本上会取代他们描述的论文。

So, I think seeking legacy is dangerous.

所以，我认为寻求遗产是危险的。

And it brings us back to this question of how to construct the day, because at the far extreme is kind of a life, a career, a legacy.

这让我们回到了如何构建这一天的问题，因为最极端的是一种生活、一种职业、一种遗产。

I'd like to talk a little bit about the day.

我想谈谈这一天的情况。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: The unit of the day.

安德鲁·休伯曼：今日单位。

You've talked about never failing twice in a row.

你说过永远不会连续两次失败。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Is that day today, or is that, morning, afternoon two failures, you're done?

安德鲁·休伯曼：今天就是这一天，还是早上、下午两次失败，你就完了吗？

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

I did hear one time, I think Gretchen Rubin was the one who said, "You should split a day into four quarters."

我确实有一次听到，我认为格雷琴·鲁宾（Gretchen Rubin）说：“你应该把一天分成四个季度。”

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: You got morning, afternoon, evening, and then nighttime, or divide it.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你有早上、下午、晚上，然后是晚上，或者分开。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: That's what I do, definitely.

Andrew Huberman：这绝对是我所做的。

Yeah.

是的。

James Clear: And then it's like, if you lose the first quarter, well, that's all right, and you can still come back and win the next quarter.

詹姆斯·克利尔：然后就好像，如果你输掉了第一节，那也没关系，你仍然可以在下一节回来赢球。

It kind of gives you permission for the day to not be a wash, you know?

这有点允许你这一天不洗澡，你知道吗？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

James Clear: I do think that's a mistake people make sometimes.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我确实认为这是人们有时会犯的错误。

They get off on a bad start, and they're like, "Oh, the whole day is ruined." Let's reset and try to think in a lot of ways.

他们一开始就很糟糕，他们会说，“哦，这一天都毁了。”让我们重新开始，尝试从很多方面思考。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: Living a good life is figuring out a way to have a good day, even when things don't go your way.

詹姆斯·克利尔：过上美好的生活就是想办法度过美好的一天，即使事情不如你所愿。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: If you have that ability to bounce back and make something of the day, even when it's not optimal, that's good.

詹姆斯·克利尔：如果你有能力恢复并做出一些事情，即使它不是最佳的，那就很好。

You position yourself to have a good life, because things are not always going to go your way.

你给自己定位是为了过上美好的生活，因为事情并不总是如你所愿。

James Clear: Never miss twice is an idea that's an encouragement.

詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）：“永不错过两次”这个想法是一种鼓励。

It's an attitude, right?

这是一种态度，对吗？

That you show up and you've been following a new diet for eight days, and then on the ninth day you binge eat a pizza, and you're like, "Well, I wish that hadn't happened, but never miss twice.

当你出现时，你已经遵循了八天的新饮食习惯，然后在第九天你狂吃披萨，你会说，“好吧，我希望这没有发生，但不要错过两次。

Let's get back on track tomorrow."

让我们明天回到正轨吧。”

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: Or in my case, I wrote a new article every Monday and Thursday, and that was the habit that kind of launched my writing career.

詹姆斯·克利尔：或者就我而言，我每周一和周四写一篇新文章，这就是开启我写作生涯的习惯。

If I missed on Monday, I wish that hadn't happened, but let's make sure I get one out on Thursday.

如果我周一错过了，我希望这没有发生，但我们要确保周四我能得到一个。

And the real insight here, what you really learn when you look at top performers across many domains, is that they make mistakes like everybody else, everybody's human.

这里真正的洞察力，当你观察许多领域的顶尖表现者时，你真正学到的是，他们和其他人一样也会犯错误，每个人都是人。

But they tend to get back on track quickly.

但他们往往会很快回到正轨。

And if the reclaiming of a habit is fast, the breaking of it doesn't matter that much.

如果恢复一个习惯的速度很快，那么打破它就没有那么重要了。

James Clear: You get to the end of the year, and it's just a little blip on the radar.

James Clear：到了年底，这只是雷达上的一个小现象。

But it's missing a habit and letting slipping up once turn into not doing it for three months, that's the real problem.

但它缺少一个习惯，一旦犯错就变成三个月不做，这才是真正的问题。

And so, you're trying to course correct quickly.

所以，你正试图快速纠正方向。

That's what never miss twice is really about.

这就是“永不错过两次”的真正含义。

You could break it down within a day if it's a habit that you're doing multiple times a day, sure.

当然，如果您每天多次养成这种习惯，那么您可以在一天之内将其改掉。

But I think the real thing is trying to build this ability to rebound quickly.

但我认为真正的事情是努力建立这种快速反弹的能力。

Andrew Huberman: And to me, that's also the danger of, quote-unquote, "optimization," as most people perceive it.

Andrew Huberman：对我来说，这也是大多数人认为的“优化”的危险。

They figure if they miss the optimal window to work or the optimal window to work out, then it's over.

他们认为，如果错过了最佳工作时间或最佳锻炼时间，那么一切就都结束了。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And I think there's advantages to understanding when one is at their mental or physical peak, and trying to schedule things that way, but also having flexibility.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为了解一个人何时处于精神或身体的巅峰状态并尝试以这种方式安排事情是有好处的，但同时也要具有灵活性。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

James Clear: I feel like you would be the perfect person to answer some of these, but this is how I first started thinking about intermittent fasting.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我觉得你是回答其中一些问题的最佳人选，但这就是我第一次开始考虑间歇性禁食的方式。

Everybody was so wrapped up in when exactly you were eating, and I was like, if you got the same amount of calories in a 24-hour period, and you just spaced it out differently, one person's eating every hour, one person's eating every six hours, one person only eats it all in an 8-hour window, or whatever, is it going to make that big of a difference?

每个人都非常关注自己到底在什么时候吃东西，我想，如果你在 24 小时内摄入相同量的卡路里，而你只是将其间隔不同，一个人每小时吃一次，一个人每六个小时吃一次，一个人只在 8 小时内吃完所有东西，或者其他什么，会有那么大的差异吗？

James Clear: What percentage difference are we attributing to purely meal timing, right?

James Clear：我们将纯粹的进餐时间归因于多少百分比的差异，对吧？

So, I don't know what the answer is; maybe you do.

所以，我不知道答案是什么；也许你会。

But I feel like it's probably fairly nominal.

但我觉得这可能是相当名义上的。

If your body's getting the same amount of calories from the same foods in a 24-hour span, it probably isn't making that dramatic of a difference.

如果您的身体在 24 小时内从相同的食物中获取相同量的卡路里，那么可能不会产生那么显着的差异。

Andrew Huberman: You're right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你是对的。

The one exception is if you start to eat on a more nocturnal schedule, it's worse.

唯一的例外是，如果您开始更多地在夜间进食，情况会更糟。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I'll battle people till the end of time on this one.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我将在这件事上与人们战斗到底。

I'm not saying everyone has to be up with the sun and down with the sun at the end of the day, and only eat when the sun is up, and not after the sun is down.

我并不是说每个人都必须在一天结束时与太阳一起起床，与太阳一起落下，并且只在太阳升起时吃东西，而不是在太阳落山之后吃东西。

But you want to protect an hour or so before sleep, ideally two or three hours, where you're both not gnawingly hungry, nor are you consuming a lot of calories before sleep, because it will impede your sleep.

但你要保证睡前一个小时左右，最好是两三个小时，这样你既不会太饿，也不会在睡前摄入大量卡路里，因为这会妨碍你的睡眠。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And people who work the night shift, and by the way, a lot of people are now shift workers.

安德鲁·休伯曼：还有那些上夜班的人，顺便说一句，现在很多人都是轮班工人。

They qualify as shift workers just by virtue of being on their computers at night or phones or whatever.

他们仅仅因为晚上使用电脑或电话或其他什么而有资格成为轮班工人。

There is a ton of data just showing how bad it is for your health, GI health, cancer risk, longevity, et cetera, to be a shift worker.

有大量数据表明，轮班工人对您的健康、胃肠道健康、癌症风险、长寿等有多么糟糕。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And we need shift workers of certain kinds, right?

Andrew Huberman：我们需要某些类型的轮班工人，对吗？

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you, shift workers.

Andrew Huberman：谢谢你们，轮班工人。

But eating the majority of your calories too close to bedtime, late in the day, not good.

但大部分卡路里摄入时间太接近睡前、当天较晚的时间，就不好了。

Eating the majority of your calories at lunch and dinner, fine.

在午餐和晚餐时摄入大部分卡路里，没问题。

I have a friend who's actually the neurosurgeon at Neuralink, at Elon's company.

我有一个朋友，他实际上是 Elon 公司 Neuralink 的神经外科医生。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And he has a policy whereby he skips one sort of traditional meal per day.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：他有一项政策，规定他每天不吃一种传统餐。

So he'll have breakfast and dinner, or have lunch and dinner or breakfast and lunch, and he varies it.

所以他会吃早餐和晚餐，或者吃午餐和晚餐，或者早餐和午餐，而且他会改变它。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And he insists that it keeps him flexible around this.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他坚持认为这让他在这方面保持灵活性。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And he's certainly healthy.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他当然很健康。

So, N-of-1 here.

所以，这里是 N-of-1。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: But I kind of like that, right?

Andrew Huberman：但我有点喜欢这样，对吧？

You're not always eating between 11 and 7, which is generally what I try to do, but sometimes it's a little bit later.

你并不总是在 11 点到 7 点之间吃饭，这通常是我尝试做的，但有时会晚一点。

But I totally agree that Calories In, Calories Out, and the laws of thermodynamics hold.

但我完全同意卡路里摄入、卡路里消耗以及热力学定律的成立。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: So, you just don't want to eat in the middle of the night.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，你只是不想在半夜吃东西。

James Clear: Okay, all right.

詹姆斯·克利尔：好的，好吧。

James Clear: So, that answer, I think, is actually somewhat instructive for this overall discussion about timing and what the day looks like for habits in general.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我认为这个答案实际上对于有关时间安排以及一般习惯的一天是什么样子的整体讨论具有一定的指导意义。

Which is, yeah, if we're being perfectly designed and robotic about it, then yes, we can probably figure out optimal windows for all kinds of things.

是的，如果我们被完美地设计和机器人化，那么是的，我们可能可以找出适合各种事物的最佳窗口。

And it's great if your day can go that way.

如果你的一天能这样度过，那就太好了。

You may not always have enough control over your day to make that happen, but on the days when you can, that's great.

您可能并不总是对自己的一天有足够的控制力来实现这一目标，但在您可以控制的日子里，那就太好了。

James Clear: But also, what we realize is that there is a broad range in the middle where you have flexibility.

詹姆斯·克利尔：但是，我们也意识到，中间有一个广泛的范围，您可以在其中具有灵活性。

And it counts for a lot to get the thing in, whether it's eating the meal or doing the workout or doing the writing session or whatever.

无论是吃饭、锻炼、写作还是其他什么，把东西放进去非常重要。

It counts for a lot to do it, even if it's not at the perfect time.

即使不是在完美的时间，这样做也很重要。

And then at the other extreme end, maybe not more nocturnal eating, there's some window where it doesn't make sense.

然后在另一个极端，也许不是更多的夜间进食，有一些窗口是没有意义的。

Did you miss your workout today?

今天的锻炼你错过了吗？

Okay.

好的。

Do you really need to be working out at 2:00 a.m., or should you just go to bed at that point and get some sleep?

您真的需要在凌晨 2:00 锻炼，还是应该在那个时间上床睡觉？

James Clear: And you'll have to decide what that is for you.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你必须决定这对你来说是什么。

But there are probably extremes for lots of these habits where you're doing a little more harm than good by forcing it.

但许多这些习惯可能都存在极端情况，如果你强迫这样做，弊大于利。

But there's a big range in the middle where it's like, listen, let's just not throw up a zero and get this habit in.

但中间有一个很大的范围，听着，我们不要扔一个零并养成这个习惯。

It's going to make a bigger difference to do it than to not.

做比不做会有更大的影响。

And I feel like that amount of flexibility is really good to have for sticking with your habits and adjusting them throughout your daily routine.

我觉得这种灵活性对于坚持你的习惯并在你的日常生活中进行调整是非常好的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I agree.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我同意。

There's a wonderful picture of the writer Oliver Sacks, a neurologist writer, Oliver Sacks, who was prolific.

有一幅关于作家奥利弗·萨克斯（Oliver Sacks）的精彩照片，他是一位多产的神经病学家作家奥利弗·萨克斯（Oliver Sacks）。

So many books.

这么多书。

James Clear: Also incredibly strong.

詹姆斯·克利尔：也非常强大。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

I think he squatted 525 or something.

我觉得他蹲了525什么的。

Andrew Huberman: I think he won the California, I think, Squat Record at one point, 600 pounds.

Andrew Huberman：我认为他曾一度赢得了加州深蹲纪录，600 磅。

James Clear: 600 pounds?

詹姆斯·克利尔：600 磅？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Yeah, he was big.

是的，他很大。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: He was strong.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他很坚强。

And there's a great photo of him writing outside a train station on pen and paper with his briefcase on the ground, people walking by, and that was always touted as him being very inspired.

还有一张很棒的照片，照片上他在火车站外用笔和纸写字，公文包放在地上，人们走过，这总是被吹捧为他很有灵感。

He would write anywhere, anytime that ideas would come to him.

他会随时随地写下他想到的想法。

Turns out that's not what it was at all.

事实证明，事情根本不是这样的。

I got to know from some people close to him.

我是从他身边的一些人那里认识的。

Turns out that was an instance where he was going between meetings, and he had so much to do that he was just cramming some writing in.

事实证明，这是他在会议间隙外出的一个例子，他有太多事情要做，所以他只是临时写了一些东西。

So you know, but so we look at that picture and we go...

所以你知道，但是我们看看那张照片，然后我们就……

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: For years, I looked at that picture.

安德鲁·休伯曼：多年来我一直看着那张照片。

I actually had a printout of it, pinned above my desk, and I thought, "That's an inspired person right there."

我实际上有一份它的打印件，钉在我的桌子上方，我想，“那是一个充满灵感的人。”

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: "He's so excited." And it turns out, no, he was just very, very busy.

安德鲁·休伯曼：“他太兴奋了。”事实证明，不，他只是非常非常忙。

James Clear: It turns out it was an overscheduled person.

詹姆斯·克利尔：事实证明这是一个日程安排过多的人。

Andrew Huberman: Exactly, getting it in wherever he could, whenever he could.

Andrew Huberman：没错，只要有可能，就尽可能地把它放进去。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: So, I think we have to be careful how we interpret people's schedules.

Andrew Huberman：所以，我认为我们必须小心地解释人们的日程安排。

I also think the regularity does lead to a kind of nerdy term is entrainment.

我还认为这种规律性确实导致了一种讨厌的术语“夹带”。

Just like we will wake up a minute before our alarm clock goes off, which is, by the way, an entrained, it's kind of an operant conditioning of the cortisol response, which is why we wake up in the morning.

就像我们会在闹钟响起前一分钟醒来一样，顺便说一句，这是一种夹带的、皮质醇反应的操作性调节，这就是我们早上醒来的原因。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Cortisol spikes, we wake up, right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：皮质醇激增，我们醒来，对吧？

And it's down to the minute often.

而且经常精确到分钟。

It's incredible.

太不可思议了。

People are like, "Why do I wake up?" It's because cortisol has rose to a certain threshold a minute before your normal alarm clock time.

人们会问：“我为什么要醒来？”这是因为皮质醇在正常闹钟时间前一分钟已升至某个阈值。

Or even if you told yourself the night before, "Got to get up at 7:30," it goes off at 7:29.

或者，即使您前一天晚上告诉自己“必须在 7:30 起床”，它也会在 7:29 起床。

You're clocking it in sleep, believe it or not.

不管你信不信，你正在睡觉时计时。

Andrew Huberman: I do think that if we get used to battling that, I always envision having to claw my way through barbed wire to get to the really important work and push everything aside, that if we start to do that fairly regularly between the hours of 9:00 a.m.

Andrew Huberman：我确实认为，如果我们习惯于与这种情况作斗争，我总是设想必须穿过铁丝网才能完成真正重要的工作，并将所有事情都放在一边，如果我们开始在上午 9:00 之间定期这样做的话。

and 11:00 a.m., that we're better prepared for that battle at that time versus in the afternoon.

和上午 11:00，与下午相比，我们当时为这场战斗做好了更好的准备。

We can still do it in the afternoon, but I do think it's an entrained cortisol response, which is what allows us to lean into challenge, cortisol not always being a bad thing.

我们仍然可以在下午进行，但我确实认为这是一种夹带的皮质醇反应，这使我们能够迎接挑战，皮质醇并不总是坏事。

James Clear: Yeah, okay.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，好的。

So, let's talk a little bit about timing and habits, and sequencing, because I do think that it's an important lever that you can pull on for building habits.

所以，让我们谈谈时间、习惯和顺序，因为我确实认为这是培养习惯的重要杠杆。

So first is, as a general rule, I think the earlier in the day you do something, the better the odds are that it's going to happen.

首先，作为一般规则，我认为你越早做某事，它发生的可能性就越大。

The more of the day that goes on, the more real estate there is for something to interrupt you, for somebody else's agenda to get put on top of yours, for somebody to need something, or an emergency happens.

一天的时间越长，就越容易有事情打扰你，让别人的议程凌驾于你的之上，让某人需要某事，或者发生紧急情况。

It's just that you decrease the likelihood that the habit's going to occur.

只是你降低了这种习惯发生的可能性。

James Clear: So, generally speaking, I think stacking a group of habits earlier in the day is probably good.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，一般来说，我认为在一天的早些时候积累一组习惯可能是好的。

Having said that, there are 24 hours in everybody's day, but each hour is under different levels of control for you.

话虽如此，每个人的一天都有24小时，但每个小时对你来说都有不同程度的控制。

So, I think the question is not, "Do you have enough time," but the question is, "Which of your hours are within your control, or which of your hours can you shape better than others?"

所以，我认为问题不是“你有足够的时间”，而是“你的哪些时间是在你的控制范围内，或者你的哪些时间可以比其他人塑造得更好？”

James Clear: Some hours are a lot more in your control than others.

詹姆斯·克利尔：有些时间比其他时间更容易控制。

Like, if you have somebody who doesn't have kids, then meditating at 7:00 a.m.

比如，如果你的家人没有孩子，那么在早上 7:00 进行冥想。

might be a great time to do it.

也许是这样做的好时机。

But if you have toddlers running around and trying to get pants on your kid, then that's not a good time to try to do that habit.

但如果你的孩子到处乱跑并试图把裤子穿在你的孩子身上，那么现在就不是尝试养成这种习惯的好时机。

And so, you need to figure out which of your hours are under your control.

因此，您需要弄清楚哪些时间是您可以控制的。

And then there's also circadian rhythm stuff and trying to time things up, especially physical things like working out or whatever.

然后还有昼夜节律的东西，并试图安排时间，尤其是像锻炼或其他什么的身体活动。

Like, sure.

喜欢，当然。

So, we can try to do some optimization there if you have control over that hour.

因此，如果您可以控制该时间，我们可以尝试在那里进行一些优化。

James Clear: But the other thing that I think that is important to ask is, which of my habits are upstream from other good things happening?

詹姆斯·克利尔：但我认为重要的另一件事是，我的哪些习惯是其他好事发生的上游？

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: So, for me, I know that probably if I was going to pick the big pillars of what really makes a good day for me, do I get a workout in?

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，对我来说，我知道如果我要选择真正让我度过美好一天的主要支柱，我会进行锻炼吗？

Do I read?

我读书吗？

It really doesn't even have to be long.

它实际上甚至不需要很长。

It could just be five minutes, but do I do any reading, and then do I write one sentence?

可能只有五分钟，但我会阅读，然后写一句话吗？

Those are kind of my measures.

这些是我的措施。

Now, of course, for me, the hardest part is choosing what to write.

当然，现在对我来说，最困难的部分是选择写什么。

Once I actually pick what I'm writing about, then it's easy for me to get going further.

一旦我真正选择了要写的内容，我就很容易继续前进。

So I know that there's a lot more that comes after that one sentence.

所以我知道这句话之后还有很多内容。

James Clear: But those are kind of the big professional ones that I'm like, "If I do those three, I usually have a pretty good day." The reading and the writing are easier for me after I work out, so the workout is kind of the linchpin one.

詹姆斯·克利尔：但这些都是我喜欢的大型专业活动，“如果我做了这三件事，我通常会度过美好的一天。”锻炼后，阅读和写作对我来说会更容易，所以锻炼是关键之一。

Andrew Huberman: Why do you think that is?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你认为这是为什么？

Is it that you dispel a certain amount of nervous energy?

是不是你驱散了一定的紧张能量？

James Clear: I think some of it is just the post-workout high.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我认为其中一些只是锻炼后的兴奋。

I kind of have that clarity, an hour or two after I work out, so I think that helps.

锻炼一两个小时后，我的思路就清晰了，所以我认为这有帮助。

I think some of it is also that I like to work out not early in the morning, but in the morning.

我想也有一部分原因是我喜欢不一大早锻炼，而是早上锻炼。

And I don't know, it just gets me going for the day.

我不知道，它只是让我继续这一天。

It changes my state.

它改变了我的状态。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: I feel more energized after that.

詹姆斯·克利尔：在那之后我感觉更有活力了。

Andrew Huberman: What time do you wake up?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你几点起床？

And what time do you tend to work out?

您一般什么时间锻炼？

Not that people should map exactly to this, but just curious.

并不是说人们应该准确地映射到这一点，而是只是好奇。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Good caveat.

好的警告。

Andrew Huberman: Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。

James Clear: Usually I'm waking up around 7:00.

James Clear：通常我在 7:00 左右醒来。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: And usually, I'm working out around 10:00 to 11:00, somewhere around there.

James Clear：通常，我会在 10:00 到 11:00 左右的某个时间进行锻炼。

Andrew Huberman: For me, and certainly, there are some data to support this, but also other timings, that three hours after waking or 11 hours after waking seem to be ideal times to work out.

Andrew Huberman：对我来说，当然有一些数据支持这一点，但也有其他时间，醒来后 3 小时或醒来 11 小时似乎是理想的锻炼时间。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

James Clear: Interesting.

詹姆斯·克利尔：有趣。

James Clear: So, I'm kind of around that zone.

James Clear：所以，我就在那个区域附近。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

James Clear: That's interesting.

詹姆斯·克利尔：这很有趣。

Andrew Huberman: I mean, I think that mentally and physically, probably due to changes in body temperature and circulation of...

安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，我认为精神上和身体上，可能是由于体温和循环的变化......

You know, that morning cortisol rise that wakes people up?

你知道，早上皮质醇升高会让人醒来吗？

James Clear: I did not know that, but...

詹姆斯·克利尔：我不知道，但是……

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: We hear so much about cortisol being a stress hormone, we forget that morning cortisol needs to be very, very, very high in order to have low cortisol at night.

Andrew Huberman：我们经常听说皮质醇是一种压力荷尔蒙，但我们忘记了早上皮质醇需要非常非常高，晚上皮质醇才会较低。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: If you don't, you have this kind of flat cortisol curve, as they call it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：如果你不这样做，你就会得到这种扁平的皮质醇曲线，正如他们所说的那样。

Sets you up for insomnia, anxiety, a bunch of things that are really bad.

会让你陷入失眠、焦虑等一系列非常糟糕的事情。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Cortisol has gotten a bad rap.

Andrew Huberman：皮质醇的名声很差。

And when you exercise, you probably quadruple your cortisol levels, at least during the workout and afterwards, depending on the workout.

当你锻炼时，你的皮质醇水平可能会增加四倍，至少在锻炼期间和之后，这取决于锻炼。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: So, if you're stacking all your cortisol earlier, it's like a wave front for the rest of the day, and I'm guessing that's probably what you're tapping into.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，如果你早些时候积累了所有的皮质醇，那么它就像一天剩下的时间里的波前，我猜这可能就是你正在利用的。

James Clear: That's interesting.

詹姆斯·克利尔：这很有趣。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

James Clear: So that makes sense.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以这是有道理的。

That adds up to me as an explanation.

这对我来说是一个解释。

And then the other thing is the writing is way easier if I do the reading first.

另一件事是，如果我先阅读，写作就会容易得多。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: So here's just kind of two little philosophical thoughts about it.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以这里有两个关于它的小哲学想法。

First is: Almost every thought that you have is downstream from what you consume.

首先是：几乎你的每一个想法都是你所消费的下游。

And so, when you choose who to follow on social media, or which podcast to listen to, or which book to read, or what YouTube channel to watch, you are choosing your future thoughts, in a sense.

因此，当你选择在社交媒体上关注谁、听哪个播客、读哪本书或观看哪个 YouTube 频道时，从某种意义上说，你就是在选择你未来的想法。

Whatever fills up your feed is going to spark the next thought that you have next week or a month from now.

无论你的提要填满什么，都将激发你下周或一个月后的下一个想法。

James Clear: So, you should choose very carefully what those things are.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，你应该非常仔细地选择这些东西是什么。

I don't think we usually put that kind of weight on it.

我认为我们通常不会这么重视它。

But if you want better, more productive, more creative thoughts, then you need better, more productive, more creative inputs.

但如果你想要更好、更有成效、更有创意的想法，那么你就需要更好、更有成效、更有创意的投入。

And so, I had this thing happen where...

所以，我让这件事发生在......

I've been writing online for 14 years now, and first couple of years, I had this pretty rapid growth, and I got to 100,000 email subscribers.

我在网上写作已经 14 年了，最初几年，我的增长相当迅速，我的电子邮件订阅者达到了 100,000 名。

And for some reason, once I got to 100,000, I got in my head about it.

出于某种原因，当我达到 100,000 的时候，我就开始思考这个问题。

What I should have done was just say, "Things are going well.

我应该做的只是说：“一切进展顺利。

Keep doing what you're doing."

继续做你正在做的事情。”

James Clear: But instead I was like, "Now a lot of people are paying attention, so it has to be really good." So I thought, "Let me spend even more time writing and make it better." But in fact, the writing got worse.

詹姆斯·克利尔：但我当时想，“现在很多人都在关注，所以它必须非常好。”所以我想，“让我花更多的时间写作，让它变得更好。”但实际上，文笔越来越差了。

And my theory, now, is that I was writing more, but I was reading less.

现在我的理论是，我写得更多，但读得更少。

And so I had fewer inputs, fewer sources of inspiration, fewer sparks for new, interesting, good thoughts, and so the writing declined.

因此，我的投入减少了，灵感来源减少了，新的、有趣的、好的想法的火花也减少了，所以写作下降了。

And now I look at it more like driving a car.

现在我觉得它更像是开车。

James Clear: You know, you have to take the car to the gas station and fill it up with gas.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你知道，你必须把车开到加油站加满油。

That's like reading.

这就像读书一样。

But the point of having a car is not to just sit at the gas station all day and just stay there and keep filling up.

但拥有一辆车的意义不在于整天坐在加油站，一直呆在那里加油。

You also want to drive, and go on an adventure, and go see some things, which is what writing is like.

你还想开车，去冒险，去看一些东西，这就是写作的感觉。

But if you never stop, then you end up stranded on the side of the road.

但如果你不停下来，那么你最终就会被困在路边。

And so, they kind of work well together.

因此，他们合作得很好。

So if I get the workout in and then I read, if I'm reading something that's good, that is like...

因此，如果我进行锻炼然后阅读，如果我正在阅读一些好的内容，那就是......

And I would define good as relevant to what I am trying to write about.

我将“好”定义为与我想要写的内容相关。

James Clear: If I read something that's relevant to what I'm working on, I almost can't stop myself from writing.

詹姆斯·克利尔：如果我读到一些与我正在做的事情相关的东西，我几乎无法阻止自己写作。

I'll only get two or three pages in, and I have to stop.

我只会写两三页，然后我就得停下来了。

I got to just riff on a bunch of stuff that is sparking or bubbling up.

我必须即兴发挥一些正在火花或冒泡的东西。

So, if I do things in that sequence, it's usually a pretty good day.

所以，如果我按照这个顺序做事，通常会是美好的一天。

Andrew Huberman: That's awesome.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

So that's like a kid who's watching baseball, and it's an awesome game, and then he just runs outside and just has to play with his friends.

这就像一个孩子正在看棒球，那是一场很棒的比赛，然后他就跑到外面和他的朋友们一起玩。

James Clear: Yeah, yeah.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，是的。

Andrew Huberman: He's like, "Let's get a game together."

安德鲁·休伯曼：他说，“我们一起来玩一场游戏吧。”

Andrew Huberman: As opposed to a lot of people who just want to be passive consumers the whole time.

Andrew Huberman：与很多只想一直成为被动消费者的人相反。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I was surprised to hear that you don't just get dropped into the reading and just stay with it, stay with it.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我很惊讶地听到你不会只是投入阅读并坚持下去，坚持下去。

It's really a springboard, or as you said, it kind of preloads your brain for doing your best writing.

这确实是一个跳板，或者正如你所说，它可以预先加载你的大脑，以实现最好的写作。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Joni Mitchell, I think, used to paint as a preamble to writing and singing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为乔尼·米切尔曾经把绘画作为写作和歌唱的序言。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I have a good friend who's both a musician and a producer, and he'll get up early in the morning or sometimes in the middle of the night, and he'll just draw, go back to sleep, wake up, and then he produces music all day.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我有一个好朋友，他既是音乐家又是制作人，他会在清晨或有时在半夜起床，然后画画，回去睡觉，醒来，然后一整天都在创作音乐。

He's been doing this for, gosh, 50 years.

天哪，他已经这么做了 50 年了。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: 50 years.

安德鲁·休伯曼：50 年。

Yeah, nearly 50 years.

是的，快50年了。

And yeah, that's right.

是的，没错。

And turning 50 myself is kind of staggering, so my friend, he's older than I am.

我自己已经 50 岁了，这有点令人震惊，所以我的朋友，他比我年长。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: But it's incredible, right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：但这太不可思议了，对吧？

It's like, you guys are describing this process of loading up your mind and then pivoting to the thing that really matters most, which I think is super impressive because most people get stuck in the thing that feels easiest and that someone else provides.

就像，你们正在描述这个让你的思想充满活力，然后转向真正最重要的事情的过程，我认为这是非常令人印象深刻的，因为大多数人都会陷入感觉最简单且别人提供的事情中。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Most people are consumers, not creators.

Andrew Huberman：大多数人都是消费者，而不是创造者。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: But I think most people want to be creators, but they don't know how to do it.

Andrew Huberman：但我认为大多数人都想成为创造者，但他们不知道如何去做。

James Clear: This reminds me a little bit of David Epstein, some of his work on range and exploring broadly, how having a range of either sports activities or intellectual pursuits can make you better.

詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）：这让我想起了大卫·爱泼斯坦（David Epstein），他在范围和广泛探索方面的一些工作，即进行一系列体育活动或智力追求如何让你变得更好。

A lot of times, they say experts are T-shaped, right?

很多时候，人们说专家都是T型人才，对吗？

They read broadly, but then they have a narrow vertical where they specialize.

他们的阅读范围很广，但他们的专业领域却很狭窄。

And the big takeaway that people have from this a lot is that it's the top of the T that really matters.

人们从中得到的最大收获是，T 字的顶部才是真正重要的。

I need to read more widely.

我需要更广泛地阅读。

I need to look around the world and expose myself to lots of things.

我需要环顾世界，让自己接触很多事物。

James Clear: But I actually think the stem of the T is incredibly important.

James Clear：但我实际上认为 T 的词干非常重要。

It is the precursor to the top of it mattering at all.

这是重要的顶峰的前兆。

And what I mean is that the fact that you have an area where you are focused on, the fact that you have an area where you are specializing, gives the broad range of things that you're exposing something to latch onto, right?

我的意思是，事实上，你有一个你专注的领域，你有一个你擅长的领域，这一事实给了你暴露一些可以抓住的广泛的事物，对吗？

And so, by having your area of expertise or just by...

因此，通过拥有您的专业领域或仅仅通过...

It doesn't even have to be an area of expertise; it could just be a mission or a project, an objective.

它甚至不必是一个专业领域；它可能只是一个使命、一个项目、一个目标。

James Clear: So for me, the objective is the next thing that I'm writing.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以对我来说，目标就是我要写的下一个内容。

And then, as I explore broadly, and listen to podcasts and read books and look at things, that's always sitting in the back of my mind.

然后，当我广泛探索、听播客、读书、观察事物时，这些总是在我的脑海中挥之不去。

And so it's always there, ready.

所以它总是在那里，准备好了。

It's like an antenna waiting for a signal.

就像等待信号的天线一样。

And then as I read widely, well, that thing, that project that I have, it's forcing me to pick up on different stuff.

然后，当我广泛阅读时，嗯，那个东西，我拥有的那个项目，它迫使我学习不同的东西。

And I start pulling that, and I start connecting it.

我开始拉动它，并开始连接它。

I feel like creativity is very rarely, is it actually, an original thought.

我觉得创造力很少，实际上是原创的想法。

James Clear: Mostly, what it is is the synthesis of two things that had not been previously connected.

詹姆斯·克利尔：大多数情况下，它是两个以前没有联系的事物的综合体。

And so by having your project or your area of expertise, you have something you're focused on, and then you read widely, and you look for interesting things that can connect to it.

因此，通过你的项目或你的专业领域，你有你所关注的东西，然后你广泛阅读，并寻找可以与之联系的有趣的东西。

And so that's what I'm doing the whole time.

这就是我一直在做的事情。

I'm reading, and then I'm like, "Oh, this would apply to that," and then I just can't help myself to start to write about the connection or write about the overlap between those things.

我正在阅读，然后我想，“哦，这适用于那个，”然后我就情不自禁地开始写下这些事物之间的联系或重叠。

Andrew Huberman: This is, I think, one of the reasons why, and I don't think everyone needs to pursue degrees, but one of the reasons why something like graduate school for those that are interested in really, pouring themselves into a topic or a career in a certain area is so valuable, because let's say biology.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为，这就是原因之一，而且我不认为每个人都需要攻读学位，但对于那些真正感兴趣的人来说，研究生院之类的东西，全身心投入到某个领域的主题或职业是如此有价值，因为比方说生物学。

You do experiments, but then you walk with other people to a seminar.

你做实验，然后和其他人一起去参加研讨会。

You watch the seminar.

你看研讨会。

You walk back.

你往回走。

You talk about what was dreadful, what was funny, what was amazing.

你谈论什么是可怕的，什么是有趣的，什么是令人惊奇的。

Maybe you talk about other things as well.

也许你们还谈论其他事情。

Andrew Huberman: But you're sort of immersed in it, and so your whole world, it's a very pure time.

Andrew Huberman：但是你有点沉浸在其中，所以你的整个世界，这是一个非常纯粹的时间。

And again, it's not for everybody, but it's a very pure time where you're just completely immersed in a set of topics and conversations.

再说一次，这并不适合所有人，但这是一个非常纯粹的时间，你完全沉浸在一系列主题和对话中。

I think online algorithms have gotten so good now at detecting the range of things that we're interested in and feeding those to us.

我认为在线算法现在已经非常擅长检测我们感兴趣的事物并将其提供给我们。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I think there's an opportunity there, where if the algorithms could be, if we could self-select a filter so that it could enrich us, right?

Andrew Huberman：我认为那里有一个机会，如果算法可以，如果我们可以自我选择一个过滤器，这样它就可以丰富我们，对吗？

I mean, when I go on YouTube, I want to see certain types of content.

我的意思是，当我访问 YouTube 时，我想看到某些类型的内容。

Other stuff I think appeals to whatever it believes about my kind of less...

我认为其他的东西对它所相信的我的那种不那么有吸引力的东西有吸引力......

Let's call them just things that they're not bad, but they're not good.

我们姑且称它们为“不坏但不好”的事物。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: They're not serving any purpose in my life.

Andrew Huberman：它们对我的生活没有任何作用。

I don't want to see that stuff.

我不想看到那些东西。

And so, I think it...

所以，我认为...

But I do listen to a lot of lectures.

但我确实听了很多讲座。

I think personal development stuff online is incredibly interesting and meshed with scientific literature.

我认为网上的个人发展内容非常有趣，并且与科学文献相结合。

Obviously, that's what appeals to me.

显然，这就是吸引我的地方。

So, it seems like the solution is to be a selective forager, and books are probably the most direct way to do that.

因此，解决方案似乎是成为一个有选择性的觅食者，而书籍可能是最直接的方法。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: You choose what books are on your shelf as opposed to your feed, which you don't really self-select.

Andrew Huberman：你可以选择书架上的书，而不是你的提要，而你实际上并不是自己选择的。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: I think there's more control over it nowadays, but do you read physical books?

Andrew Huberman：我认为现在对此有了更多的控制，但是你读实体书吗？

James Clear: Yep.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Do you listen to audiobooks?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你听有声读物吗？

James Clear: I prefer physical.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我更喜欢身体锻炼。

I like audio.

我喜欢音频。

What I almost never do is e-books.

我几乎从不看电子书。

I don't have some personal vendetta against them.

我对他们没有任何个人恩怨。

I just rarely read them.

我只是很少读它们。

I prefer physical.

我更喜欢物理的。

If I'm going to read a book for the first time, usually it's the physical book that I'm reading.

如果我第一次读一本书，通常我读的是实体书。

Two areas where I really find audio helpful, one is if I just don't have that much time.

我发现音频在两个方面确实很有帮助，一是如果我没有那么多时间。

If I'm going to be on the road a lot or traveling a lot or whatever, obviously, that's much easier.

如果我要经常出差或旅行或其他什么，显然，这会容易得多。

And so, it's nice to have the audio as an option.

因此，很高兴有音频作为一个选项。

James Clear: But second, I find if an author or a topic is particularly dense, the audio works really well for me.

James Clear：但其次，我发现如果作者或主题特别密集，音频对我来说效果非常好。

Andrew Huberman: Hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。

James Clear: And the part of the problem is I get bogged down with the physical version, and so it's just a slog to read through it.

詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）：问题的一部分是我陷入了物理版本的困境，所以读起来很困难。

But if I listen to it in audio, I can often keep pace, and I'm understanding the overall argument that's being made.

但如果我听音频，我通常可以跟上节奏，并且我可以理解正在提出的总体论点。

But I'm not slowing myself down sentence by sentence.

但我不会一句一句地放慢自己的速度。

And so, I can get through something that's a little bit more dense in audio much better.

因此，我可以更好地处理音频密度更大的内容。

James Clear: And yeah, usually, when I read a physical book, I just go through, and then if any passage strikes me, I put a little parenthesis at the start of it, a parenthesis at the end, and then a star in the margin, so that I can easily find them.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，通常，当我读一本实体书时，我只是浏览一遍，然后如果有任何段落让我印象深刻，我会在开头加一个小括号，在结尾加一个括号，然后在页边空白处加一个星号，这样我就可以轻松找到它们。

And then by the time I get done with the book, there's usually 30, 40, 50 pages with little stars in it.

当我读完这本书时，通常有 30、40、50 页，里面都有小星星。

Sometimes, if it's really relevant, I will go back through those stars, and take a photo of that passage, highlight the text on my phone, and then copy and paste it into the doc that I'm working on, so I can have the quote or the passage there or whatever.

有时，如果确实相关，我会回顾那些星星，为该段落拍照，突出显示手机上的文本，然后将其复制并粘贴到我正在处理的文档中，这样我就可以在那里引用或粘贴该段落或其他内容。

And that's usually it.

通常就是这样。

That's usually what I'm doing.

我通常就是这么做的。

Andrew Huberman: Talked a lot about physical space interacting with other inputs, and I think this business of it was the great Joe Strummer from "The Clash" who said, "No input, no output," which I think is great.

Andrew Huberman：谈论了很多关于物理空间与其他输入交互的问题，我认为这件事是《冲突》中伟大的乔·斯特鲁默（Joe Strummer）所说的，“没有输入，没有输出”，我认为这很棒。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I think what you've added to that very important quote is that the source and the type of input matters.

Andrew Huberman：我认为您在这段非常重要的引文中添加的内容是，输入的来源和类型很重要。

James Clear: The way that I would summarize it is: If you want to learn, wander.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我的总结是：如果你想学习，就去漫步。

If you want to achieve, focus.

如果你想有所成就，就专注。

And so, it is the wandering, widely, that will surface all sorts of new learnings and insights.

因此，正是广泛的漫游，才会浮现出各种新的学习和见解。

But you don't just want to be surfacing random things.

但你不只是想呈现随机的东西。

You also want to be able to channel that into something productive that you are creating, a piece of music, a scientific research study, a book, whatever.

你还希望能够将其转化为你正在创作的富有成效的东西，一首音乐，一项科学研究，一本书，等等。

Whatever the thing is you're working on, a new business.

无论您正在从事什么工作，都是一项新业务。

And so, having a narrow vertical where you are focusing, a project where you are dedicated to, gives that wandering somewhere to live, something to contribute to.

因此，拥有一个你所关注的狭窄垂直领域，一个你致力于的项目，可以让你在徘徊中找到一个可以居住的地方，可以做出一些贡献。

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.

Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。

Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。

Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.

Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。

This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.

此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。

They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.

他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。

Andrew Huberman: Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are experts in the relevant areas.

Andrew Huberman：Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家顶级医生的见解。

For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.

例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。

Andrew Huberman: Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.

Andrew Huberman：功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼​​，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。

And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.

我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。

Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.

全面的血液检测至关重要。

There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.

有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。

Andrew Huberman: The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.

Andrew Huberman：问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。

In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity, and at the level of cost, it is very affordable.

相比之下，Function 的简单性给我留下了非常深刻的印象，而且就成本而言，它非常实惠。

As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。

If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。

Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.

Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。

Andrew Huberman: Can we talk a little bit about the environment of the laptop or the computer screen or tablet?

Andrew Huberman：我们可以谈谈笔记本电脑、电脑屏幕或平板电脑的环境吗？

That has become a very cluttered space, or there's a lot of opportunity for an entire universe to exist in that small space, right?

那已经变成了一个非常杂乱的空间，或者说整个宇宙有很多机会存在于那个狭小的空间里，对吧？

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Earlier, we were talking about visual apertures, and in the old days, you could just throw on a hat or a hoodie, and you just kind of block everything out, put a desk lamp over something, make the room dark, and you're focused because there was no screen and no feed.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：早些时候，我们谈论的是视觉孔径，在过去，你可以戴上帽子或连帽衫，然后把所有东西都挡住，在某样东西上放一盏台灯，让房间变暗，然后你就可以集中注意力，因为没有屏幕，也没有信号。

Or if there was a screen, there was no feed, and you could go on the internet.

或者，如果有屏幕，没有信息源，你就可以上网。

But you were typing, or you were working on problem sets, or you were doing whatever it is you need to do, or reading.

但是你正在打字，或者你正在解决问题集，或者你正在做任何你需要做的事情，或者阅读。

How do you organize your desktop and your relationship to the internet so that you can maintain maximum productivity?

您如何组织您的桌面以及与互联网的关系，以便保持最大的工作效率？

James Clear: I'll answer your question.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我来回答你的问题。

Let me unpack something first.

让我先打开一些东西。

So, we've made it this far.

所以，我们已经做到了这一点。

We've never actually defined what a habit is.

我们从未真正定义过什么是习惯。

If you were going to define, there are a couple of different ways you could define it.

如果您要定义它，可以通过几种不同的方式来定义它。

So one way, if you talk to an academic or a researcher or something, they'll probably say it's this automatic non-conscious behavior you perform, without really thinking about it.

因此，一方面，如果您与学者或研究人员或其他人交谈，他们可能会说这是您执行的这种自动无意识行为，而没有真正考虑它。

Tying your shoes or brushing your teeth or something like that.

系鞋带或刷牙或类似的事情。

But I think another very interesting way to potentially define a habit is that it's a behavior that is tied to a particular context.

但我认为定义习惯的另一种非常有趣的方式是，它是一种与特定环境相关的行为。

James Clear: So, your habit of watching Netflix might be tied to the context of your couch at 7:00 p.m.

James Clear：所以，您观看 Netflix 的习惯可能与晚上 7:00 坐在沙发上的环境有关。

And whenever you're in your living room at 7:00 p.m., you're just kind of being gradually pulled toward doing that.

每当您晚上 7:00 在客厅时，您就会逐渐被拉向这样做。

And there are some studies that have shown that, or have found, that it tends to be easier to build a new behavior when you're in a clean context, when you're in a context where you're not battling the previous cues for your other habits.

有一些研究表明，或者已经发现，当你处于一个干净的环境中，当你处于一个不与之前的其他习惯暗示作斗争的环境中时，往往更容易形成新的行为。

James Clear: So, for example, if you said, "I want to get in the habit of journaling each night." Well, if you sit down on your couch at 7:00 p.m., your brain is kind of suddenly thinking, "It's time to pick up the remote and turn the TV on, not time to journal." Now, you may not always have a dedicated room where this is going to be the journaling room.

詹姆斯·克利尔：例如，如果你说：“我想养成每晚写日记的习惯。”好吧，如果您晚上 7:00 坐在沙发上，您的大脑会突然想到：“是时候拿起遥控器打开电视了，而不是写日记的时候了。”现在，您可能并不总是有一个专门的房间来作为日记室。

But there are a number of steps you could take.

但您可以采取许多步骤。

For example, you could just set a chair up in the corner, and that chair becomes the journaling chair.

例如，您可以在角落里放一把椅子，那把椅子就成为日记椅。

And so, now you walk in, and you sit in that chair, and the only thing that happens when you sit in that chair is you journal for five minutes.

所以，现在你走进去，坐在那张椅子上，当你坐在那张椅子上时唯一发生的事情就是记五分钟的日记。

James Clear: And so, now, you're creating, you're starting to create a context that is associated with that habit.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，现在，你正在创造，你开始创造一个与该习惯相关的环境。

And the fact that there is not anything currently associated with it makes it a little bit easier for that habit to form.

事实上，目前没有任何与之相关的东西，使得这种习惯更容易形成。

You're not fighting the other cues in your environment quite as much.

你不会那么频繁地与环境中的其他线索作斗争。

Okay, so let's take that definition, that truth about habits, and apply it to our smartphones or our laptop screens.

好吧，让我们采用这个定义，即关于习惯的事实，并将其应用到我们的智能手机或笔记本电脑屏幕上。

James Clear: Part of the power and the problem with the modern smartphone is that you are blending the context for all kinds of habits.

James Clear：现代智能手机的部分功能和问题在于，你正在混合各种习惯的环境。

Is the screen the place where you go to answer an email?

屏幕是您回复电子邮件的地方吗？

Or is it the place where you go to browse social media?

或者它是您浏览社交媒体的地方？

Or is it the place where you go to watch YouTube or play a video game or check the latest sports scores?

或者是您观看 YouTube、玩电子游戏或查看最新体育赛事比分的地方？

It's the place where you do all of that.

这是你做所有这些事情的地方。

And so, it's kind of similar to sitting down on the couch and trying to journal when your brain wants you to turn on the TV.

因此，这有点类似于当您的大脑希望您打开电视时坐在沙发上尝试写日记。

James Clear: You pull the smartphone up, and you're like, "I'm going to try to be productive." And it's like, well, there's also 17 other things that you're trying to do at the same time.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你拿起智能手机，然后你会想，“我要努力提高工作效率。”就好像，你还想同时做 17 件其他事情。

And so, that puts yourself in a tough position, I guess, is the point that I'm getting to.

所以，我想，这会让你自己陷入困境，这就是我要讲的重点。

Here are some of the things that I do.

以下是我所做的一些事情。

I don't think that I have this figured out by any means, but these are some of the steps that I play with.

我不认为我已经弄清楚了这一点，但这些是我所采取的一些步骤。

The first is, I don't do this all the time, but I will say, maybe, 70% of the time, 80% of the time, I leave my phone in another room until lunch.

首先，我不会一直这样做，但我会说，也许，70%、80% 的时间，我把手机放在另一个房间直到午餐。

James Clear: And usually, that's just 9:00 to noon-ish, or 9:00 to maybe, if I say, I work out at 11:00, 9:00 to 11:00-ish.

James Clear：通常，这只是 9:00 到中午左右，或者 9:00 到也许，如果我说，我在 11:00、9:00 到 11:00 左右锻炼。

But it gives me a couple of hours in the morning when I'm not responding to everybody else's agenda, or I'm not getting interrupted by the phone.

但这给了我早上几个小时的时间，我可以不回复其他人的议程，或者不被电话打扰。

I'm just going to work on what's most important to me.

我只会做对我来说最重要的事情。

What I always find interesting about that is if I have my phone on me, I'm like everybody else.

我一直觉得有趣的是，如果我带着手机，我就和其他人一样了。

I'll pick it up and check it every three minutes just because it's there.

我会拿起它并每三分钟检查一次，因为它就在那里。

But if it's in a different room, I have a home office, and so it's just down the hall, it's only 30 seconds away, but I never go get it.

但如果它在另一个房间，我有一个家庭办公室，所以它就在走廊的尽头，只有 30 秒的路程，但我从不去拿它。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: And I'm like, "Well, did I want it or not?" In the one sense, I wanted it so bad that I would check it every three minutes when it was next to me.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我想，“好吧，我到底想要还是不想要？”从某种意义上说，我非常想要它，以至于当它在我旁边时，我会每三分钟检查一次。

But in the other sense, I never wanted it badly enough that I would work for 30 seconds to go get it.

但从另一个意义上说，我从来没有那么渴望得到它，以至于我会花 30 秒去得到它。

A lot of your habits are like that.

你的很多习惯都是这样的。

If you introduce a little bit of friction, they will kind of curtail themselves to the desired degree.

如果你引入一点摩擦，它们就会将自己限制到所需的程度。

So anyway, that's the first one, is try to separate myself from it.

所以无论如何，这是第一个，就是尝试将自己从中分离出来。

James Clear: The second thing is on the screen itself; there are things that you can do.

James Clear：第二件事是在屏幕本身上；有些事情你可以做。

So, when I wanted to listen to more audiobooks, for example, that was when the pandemic hit, that was one thing that I told myself, I was like, "All right, I'm going to be at home more.

所以，当我想听更多有声读物时，例如，当大流行来袭时，我告诉自己一件事，我想，“好吧，我会更多地待在家里。

Let me try to get more reading in." So, I downloaded Audible for audiobooks, and I moved it to the home screen of my phone, and I took all the other apps, and I moved them to the second screen.

让我尝试多读书。”因此，我下载了有声读物 Audible，并将其移至手机的主屏幕，然后将所有其他应用程序移至第二个屏幕。

James Clear: Now, does that mean that I'm never going to check Instagram again, or never going to...?

James Clear：现在，这是否意味着我再也不会查看 Instagram，或者永远不会……？

No. But it does mean that whenever I open up my phone, the visual cue that I see is reminding me of what I want to try to do.

不。但这确实意味着每当我打开手机时，我看到的视觉提示都会提醒我我想尝试做什么。

And then I have, at various points, done much more strict things.

然后我在不同的时候做了更严格的事情。

So right now, for example, for the last year and a half or so, I've deleted social media entirely off of my phone.

所以现在，例如，在过去一年半左右的时间里，我已经完全从手机上删除了社交媒体。

And I can use it on the desktop, that's my little rule.

我可以在桌面上使用它，这是我的小规则。

But I don't have the password or the login; my assistant does.

但我没有密码或登录名；我的助理会。

And so any time that I want to log in, I have to ask her for it.

因此，每当我想登录时，我都必须向她询问。

And that's just enough friction that I don't do it just to browse.

这已经足够了，我不只是为了浏览而这样做。

I'm only doing it if I really need to do it.

只有当我确实需要这样做时我才会这样做。

James Clear: So, after I did that for a little while, I thought, "Well, this went well.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，在我这样做了一段时间之后，我想，“嗯，进展顺利。

Let me try to take email off my phone." Which sounded really extreme to me, but it turned out to not be that hard.

让我尝试从手机上删除电子邮件。”这对我来说听起来确实很极端，但事实证明并没有那么难。

My little rule was if I really need it, I'll just download it, and I can use it.

我的小规则是，如果我真的需要它，我就会下载它，然后就可以使用它。

So, I haven't had email on my phone for like six months now.

所以，我的手机已经有六个月没有收到电子邮件了。

I've downloaded it twice.

我已经下载了两次了

Once was to get tickets to get into a show that we were going to, and then the other time, I was at the airport, and I had to send an email.

有一次是为了拿到我们要去的演出的门票，然后另一次，我在机场，我不得不发送一封电子邮件。

But I download it, I do the thing, and then I delete it again.

但我下载了它，我做了这件事，然后我又删除了它。

James Clear: And again, it's just the same as keeping the phone down the hall, which is, it's just a little bit of friction if you have to download the app every time you want to use it.

詹姆斯·克利尔：再说一次，这就像把手机放在大厅里一样，如果你每次想使用它时都必须下载该应用程序，那就有点麻烦了。

There will be times when you'll use it, and that's fine.

有时您会使用它，那很好。

But if you're just wasting time for a minute or your thumb is just looking for something to click, because you don't have anything to do, you're not going to take the time to download it because you're like, "Well, I didn't even want to look that bad anyway.

但如果你只是浪费一分钟的时间，或者你的拇指只是在寻找可点击的东西，因为你没有任何事情可做，你就不会花时间下载它，因为你会想，“好吧，我什至不想看起来那么糟糕。

I'm not going to wait for a minute for it to download." So, those are a few of the things that I've been playing with.

我不会等待它下载一分钟。”所以，这些是我一直在玩的一些东西。

Andrew Huberman: Doesn't sound like you use any programs like Freedom or any of those to lock you out of the internet.

Andrew Huberman：听起来您并没有使用任何像 Freedom 这样的程序或任何其他程序来将您锁定在互联网之外。

James Clear: I know Fred, the founder of Freedom.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我认识弗雷德，自由的创始人。

I have used it, Freedom, and what's the other one called?

我用过Freedom，另外一个叫什么？

SelfControl.

自我控制。

I've used both of those at various times, but I haven't used them for years now.

我曾多次使用过这两个工具，但现在已经很多年没有使用它们了。

I got into this thing for a little while when I was actually working on writing "Atomic Habits." I tried to lock everything down, not just social media.

当我真正写《原子习惯》时，我对这件事投入了一段时间。我试图锁定一切，而不仅仅是社交媒体。

It was ESPN.com.

那是 ESPN.com。

You know, I don't want to allow myself to use the internet, basically.

你知道，我基本上不想让自己使用互联网。

But then I realized, well, I still need to be able to research stuff and get to things.

但后来我意识到，嗯，我仍然需要能够研究东西并得到东西。

James Clear: So, my list of blocked websites got kind of unwieldy.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我的被阻止网站列表变得有点笨拙。

And it was fine, but I don't know.

一切都很好，但我不知道。

It was fine.

很好。

I don't have anything bad to say about it, but it's not a strategy that I've used long-term.

我对此没有什么不好的说法，但这不是我长期使用的策略。

Andrew Huberman: I've used Freedom a little bit.

Andrew Huberman：我使用过一点 Freedom。

I don't really struggle with getting on the internet if I have tasks to do on my computer.

如果我有任务要在计算机上完成，我上网并不困难。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I do think the phone thing, people talk about the dopamine hits, et cetera, from the phone.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我确实认为电话的事情，人们谈论通过电话产生的多巴胺等等。

I actually don't think it's as dopamine-driven as we would like to believe.

事实上，我认为这并不像我们想象的那样是由多巴胺驱动的。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I think that's a convenient heuristic with...

Andrew Huberman：我认为这是一个方便的启发式......

The behavior itself looks a lot more like a reflex, or one person picks up their phone at dinner, and then suddenly everyone does it.

这种行为本身看起来更像是一种反射，或者一个人在晚餐时拿起手机，然后突然每个人都这样做了。

I don't think people are as conscious of what they're doing.

我认为人们并没有意识到自己在做什么。

It could also be called a habit, right?

这也可以称为习惯吧？

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: And the cues are so many, and so low-level, but powerful that I think people are just living in the reflex or the habit of picking up their phone and looking at it and scrolling it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这些线索如此之多，如此低级，但很强大，我认为人们只是生活在拿起手机、看着它并滚动它的反射或习惯中。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

James Clear: Okay, so this...

詹姆斯·克利尔：好的，所以这个......

Andrew Huberman: I don't think there's much reward there in most cases.

Andrew Huberman：我认为在大多数情况下不会有太多回报。

And it's harder to research in the lab.

而且在实验室里进行研究更加困难。

I mean, this has been done, but it...

我的意思是，这已经完成了，但是......

And listen, I think the discussion around too many dopamine rewards is a healthy discussion, in general.

听着，我认为围绕过多多巴胺奖励的讨论总的来说是一个健康的讨论。

But I think there's something kind of off about how we think about cell phone use.

但我认为我们对手机使用的看法有些偏差。

We're thinking about it more in terms of rewards.

我们更多地从奖励方面考虑。

Like, how many times have you picked up your phone, seen something, and been like, "Oh, that's awesome," and then reflected on it later that day?

就像，有多少次你拿起手机，看到一些东西，然后说，“哦，太棒了”，然后当天晚些时候反思它？

Andrew Huberman: Like, you might send it to somebody in the moment.

Andrew Huberman：就像，您可以立即将其发送给某人。

But if you asked me what did I see on social media yesterday that was super interesting, I'd say, "Probably had something to do with a bulldog.

但如果你问我昨天在社交媒体上看到了什么非常有趣的东西，我会说，“可能与斗牛犬有关。

I like bulldogs.

我喜欢斗牛犬。

But I can't really tell you." I'd have to really explore.

但我真的不能告诉你。”我必须真正探索。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: If you asked me, "What was something really cool that happened yesterday?" "Oh, I ran into an old friend down near the beach," et cetera.

Andrew Huberman：如果你问我，“昨天发生了什么很酷的事情？” “哦，我在海滩附近遇到了一位老朋友，”等等。

It's so salient, it just pops right in.

它太显眼了，一闪而过。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: So, I don't know.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我不知道。

What are your thoughts about social media as a reward mechanism or a slot machine?

您对社交媒体作为奖励机制或老虎机有何看法？

I think about it more as a kind of like they tapped into kind of an itch pathway that we just naturally scratch without even thinking about it.

我认为这更像是一种痒痒的途径，我们只是自然地抓挠，甚至不假思索。

James Clear: What I think is really interesting is let's use this example of checking your phone and talk about the four laws of behavior change that we talked about before.

James Clear：我认为真正有趣的是让我们用检查手机这个例子来讨论我们之前讨论过的行为改变的四个定律。

What you often see, you can...

你经常看到的，你可以...

I don't know if this is a deep insight to anybody else, but it felt like a deep insight to me, when I was working on the book, which is what if I looked at our bad habits and tried to figure out why are they so sticky?

我不知道这对其他人来说是否是一个深刻的洞察，但对我来说，当我写这本书时，这感觉像是一个深刻的洞察，如果我审视我们的坏习惯并试图找出它们为什么如此粘性会怎么样？

And then apply that to the good habits that I want to build?

然后将其应用到我想养成的好习惯上？

Inverting that was really helpful for me.

反转这对我来说真的很有帮助。

James Clear: A lot of people feel like they check their phones too much.

詹姆斯·克利尔：很多人觉得自己检查手机的次数太多了。

Well, what do the four laws of behavior change look like?

那么，行为改变的四大法则是什么样的呢？

Make it obvious.

让它变得明显。

Our phones are always on us.

我们的手机总是在我们身边。

They're always around.

他们总是在身边。

They're very easy to access.

它们非常容易访问。

They're highly visible.

他们非常引人注目。

Make it attractive.

让它有吸引力。

There are lots of fun things, silly memes, and video games, or whatever.

有很多有趣的事情，愚蠢的模因，视频游戏，或者其他什么。

There's all kinds of interesting stuff happening on your phone.

您的手机上正在发生各种有趣的事情。

Well, how many people are following me?

嗯，有多少人关注我？

Whatever.

任何。

There's lots of things to check there.

那里有很多东西需要检查。

Make it easy.

让一切变得简单。

So many of the apps are just striving to make it as frictionless as possible.

许多应用程序只是努力使其尽可能无摩擦。

James Clear: Instagram will auto-swipe albums for you so that you don't even have to swipe through the images.

James Clear：Instagram 会自动为你滑动相册，这样你甚至不需要滑动图片。

They'll do it for you.

他们会为你做的。

And so, there's just this continual quest toward convenience and ease.

因此，人们不断追求便利和轻松。

So many of the big apps on your phone are just taking a modern desire and then making it easy and more convenient.

手机上的许多大型应用程序只是满足了现代人的需求，然后使其变得简单和方便。

People have always needed to eat.

人们总是需要吃饭。

DoorDash is like, "Just tap your thumb.

DoorDash 就像是，“只需轻按拇指即可。

We'll bring it to your door."

我们会把它送到你家门口。”

Andrew Huberman: Love DoorDash.

安德鲁·休伯曼：喜欢 DoorDash。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

And then, make it satisfying is some of that dopamine hit or reward that you get, whatever level that may be.

然后，让你感到满足的是你得到的一些多巴胺刺激或奖励，无论水平如何。

But the point is, yeah, it does all four of those things really well, and so the behavior's very sticky.

但重点是，是的，它确实很好地完成了所有这四件事，因此该行为非常具有粘性。

People sit there, and they're like, "How long will it take to build a habit?" And I'm like, "Well, how long did it take you to get in the habit of checking your phone?"

人们坐在那里，他们会想，“养成一个习惯需要多长时间？”我想，“那么，你花了多长时间才养成检查手机的习惯？”

James Clear: You probably don't even know.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你可能根本不知道。

It was probably two or three days, or you never even had to think about it.

可能是两三天，或者你根本不需要考虑它。

It was just because all those levers were pulled; it was very easy for the behavior to form.

只是因为所有这些杠杆都被拉动了；这种行为很容易形成。

And so, I think looking at what makes your bad habit sticky helps reveal some of the things that, maybe, you want to apply to your good habits to make those more likely as well.

因此，我认为看看是什么让你的坏习惯变得粘性有助于揭示一些事情，也许你想将这些事情应用到你的好习惯中，从而使这些坏习惯更有可能发生。

Andrew Huberman: What are some of the tools that people can use to break bad habits that are not related to the phone?

Andrew Huberman：人们可以使用哪些工具来改掉与手机无关的坏习惯？

Just because we've already covered those.

只是因为我们已经涵盖了这些内容。

James Clear: Yeah, yeah.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，是的。

Andrew Huberman: But a lot of people who have trouble craving sweets, late-night eating, tough one.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但是很多人都很难想吃甜食，深夜吃东西是很困难的。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: That's a tough one.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一项艰难的任务。

When I'm craving some sour candy-type flavor, that's a tough one.

当我想吃一些酸糖类的味道时，那就很难了。

James Clear: Mm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I usually can manage to just wait it out.

Andrew Huberman：我通常可以设法等待。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: But that's my vice.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但这就是我的恶习。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: People, they've got their stuff.

Andrew Huberman：大家，他们已经得到了他们的东西。

What do you suggest?

你有什么建议？

James Clear: So, we just went over four things that make habits stick.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我们刚刚讨论了使习惯保持下去的四件事。

You make it obvious, attractive, easy, satisfying.

你让它变得明显、有吸引力、简单、令人满意。

To break habits or to decrease the odds that a behavior's going to occur, you just invert those four.

要打破习惯或降低某种行为发生的可能性，只需颠倒这四种行为即可。

So, rather than making it obvious, make it invisible.

因此，与其让它变得明显，不如让它变得不可见。

Don't keep junk food in the house.

不要在家里存放垃圾食品。

Unsubscribe from the emails, whatever.

取消订阅电子邮件，无论如何。

Reduce exposure to the thing that triggers it.

减少接触触发它的事物。

Rather than making it attractive, make it unattractive.

与其让它变得有吸引力，不如让它变得没有吸引力。

This is the most difficult one for bad habits.

对于坏习惯来说，这是最难的一项。

James Clear: I would say it's the last place you should probably focus because once you learn that the sweet tastes good or that a donut is tasty, it's hard to rewire your brain to think something different.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我想说，这是你最不应该关注的地方，因为一旦你知道甜味很好吃或者甜甜圈很好吃，就很难重新调整你的大脑去思考不同的东西。

You would need to...

你需要...

Well, I'll give you an example of it in a minute, but so rather than make it attractive, make it unattractive.

好吧，我很快就会给你举一个例子，但与其让它有吸引力，不如让它变得没有吸引力。

Rather than making it easy, make it difficult.

与其让它变得简单，不如让它变得困难。

Increase friction.

增加摩擦力。

Add steps between you and the behavior.

在你和行为之间添加步骤。

I've heard from people who take the sweets, and they put them on the highest shelf in the garage, so then they have to walk all the way out there and climb up to get them.

我听说有人拿了糖果，他们把它们放在车库最高的架子上，所以他们必须一路走到那里，爬上去才能拿到它们。

James Clear: You still know they're there.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你仍然知道他们在那里。

You can still get it, but you're just trying to find ways to increase friction.

你仍然可以获得它，但你只是想找到增加摩擦的方法。

Say you want to smoke.

说你想抽烟。

If you have a pack of cigarettes on the table in front of you, that's really low friction.

如果你面前的桌子上有一包香烟，那摩擦力确实很低。

You need a lot of willpower to resist that.

你需要很大的意志力来抵抗它。

If the closest pack is three miles down the road at the grocery store, you still might get in the car and drive there, but it's a lot more friction.

如果最近的包裹距离杂货店三英里，您仍然可以开车前往那里，但摩擦会更大。

And then, rather than making it satisfying, make it unsatisfying.

然后，与其让它令人满意，不如让它不令人满意。

Usually, that's about having some kind of immediate consequence to the reward.

通常，这是对奖励产生某种直接后果。

You can manufacture this in some ways.

您可以通过某些方式制造它。

Maybe you start an agreement.

也许你们开始达成协议。

James Clear: I was just texting with my friend Brian the other day, and he wanted to get in shape.

詹姆斯·克利尔：前几天我刚刚和我的朋友布莱恩发短信，他想锻炼身体。

He really felt he wanted to lose these last 10 pounds, and so he hired a trainer.

他真的觉得自己想减掉最后 10 磅，所以他聘请了一位教练。

And then he wrote up a contract between him, his trainer, and his wife, and if he did not hit his weight check-ins for the next three months, then there was some reward for his wife.

然后他在他、他的教练和他的妻子之间写了一份合同，如果他在接下来的三个月内没有达到体重检查的目标，那么他的妻子就会得到一些奖励。

I don't know, she got 1,000 dollars to go shopping or something like that.

我不知道，她有1000美元去购物什么的。

I don't remember what it was, but something.

我不记得那是什么，但有一些东西。

And then if he did hit it, then he got 1,000 dollars to go to the football game or whatever.

如果他真的击中了，那么他就会得到 1,000 美元去观看足球比赛或其他什么。

James Clear: And the point is just that there's now some kind of immediate cost to the action that previously did not have it.

詹姆斯·克利尔：关键在于，现在的行动会产生某种以前没有的直接成本。

So, it's just an inversion of the four laws.

所以，这只是四大定律的颠倒。

And again, for both of these, building good habits and breaking bad ones, you don't need all four of these things at the same time.

再说一次，对于这两者，养成好习惯和改掉坏习惯，你不需要同时需要所有这四件事。

But the more that you have these levers working for you, the more likely it is that you're going to get the outcome that you want.

但是，这些杠杆越有效，你就越有可能获得你想要的结果。

James Clear: To go back to the point that I had earlier about making things unattractive is difficult, the only way that I have really seen it is if somebody kind of gradually changes their identity.

詹姆斯·克利尔：回到我之前所说的让事情变得没有吸引力的观点是很困难的，我真正看到这一点的唯一方法是某人逐渐改变自己的身份。

Sometimes it can be rapid.

有时它可能很快。

Let's say that every morning you go down, and you make some toast and jam for breakfast.

假设每天早上您下楼，都会做一些烤面包和果酱作为早餐。

And then you read a book that convinces you that carbs are the devil and grains are terrible, and you're like, "Oh, I don't want that at all now.

然后你读了一本书，这本书让你相信碳水化合物是魔鬼，谷物是可怕的，你会想，“哦，我现在根本不想要那个。

I'm not going to eat toast for breakfast anymore."

我早餐不会再吃吐司了。”

James Clear: So, now you've flipped this switch in your mind.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，现在你已经在你的脑海中打开了这个开关。

You see the loaf of bread, and instead of thinking breakfast, you think, "Oh, that's something I don't want." That's one example of how it could be made unattractive.

你看到一条面包，你不会想到早餐，而是想到：“哦，那是我不想要的东西。”这就是如何让它失去吸引力的一个例子。

Sometimes you see that happening.

有时你会看到这种情况发生。

I'm not advocating against grains, by the way.

顺便说一句，我并不是提倡反对谷物。

But it's rare, right?

但这种情况很少见，对吧？

The other way it tends to be more gradual.

另一方面，它往往更加渐进。

James Clear: Like you show up, and you keep reinforcing a certain identity, and then two or three or four years later, you're like, "You know what?

詹姆斯·克利尔：就像你出现一样，你不断强化某种身份，然后两三年或四年后，你会说，“你知道吗？

This has become an important part of my life.

这已经成为我生活的重要组成部分。

That thing that I used to do, I probably don't need that anymore," and you can kind of let it go.

我曾经做过的那件事，我可能不再需要了，”你可以放弃它。

It doesn't carry the same weight that it used to carry before in your mind.

它不再像以前在你脑海中那样具有同样的重量。

But that's slow.

但这很慢。

So, I don't recommend focusing on it because it's either hard or it's slow, whereas the other changes, like reducing exposure to the cue or increasing the amount of friction or distance between you and the habit, those are much quicker.

所以，我不建议专注于它，因为它要么很难，要么很慢，而其他改变，比如减少对提示的接触或增加你和习惯之间的摩擦或距离，这些要快得多。

Andrew Huberman: Social constraints can play a big role, I think.

Andrew Huberman：我认为，社会约束可以发挥重要作用。

Years ago, I read something that many people...

几年前，我读过一篇文章，很多人...

I don't know if this is true, but this article claimed that many people who are obese, meet the clinical definition of obese, self-reported that they didn't want to exercise because it made them feel selfish.

我不知道这是否属实，但这篇文章声称，许多肥胖的人，符合肥胖的临床定义，自我报告说他们不想锻炼，因为这让他们感到自私。

I thought that was interesting.

我觉得这很有趣。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Now, I'm sure some people hear that, and they go, "Oh, they're making excuses," but it was interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：现在，我确信有些人听到了这个消息，他们会说，“哦，他们在找借口”，但这很有趣。

Let's assume that they were telling the truth, because I think they were.

让我们假设他们说的是实话，因为我认为他们是真的。

This idea that most of us think of exercise as taking great care of yourself.

我们大多数人认为锻炼就是照顾好自己。

You're going to be around for people longer and yourself, and all these great things, but I think there's a category of people out there that think, "No, working out is selfish.

你会在别人和你自己身边待得更久，还有所有这些伟大的事情，但我认为有一类人认为，“不，锻炼是自私的。

It's self-indulgent.

这是自我放纵。

It's not kind.

这并不友善。

It's not altruistic.

这不是无私的。

Your time should be spent doing other things."

你的时间应该花在做其他事情上。”

James Clear: Taking too much time for myself.

詹姆斯·克利尔：为自己花费了太多时间。

I'm not focused on others enough, or something like that.

我对别人的关注不够，或者类似的事情。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, there's a whole depth of psychology there, I'm sure.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我确信那里有很深的心理学。

But I think what I had to assume is that it's a product of environment and upbringing, where people come to believe that.

但我认为我必须假设这是环境和教养的产物，人们开始相信这一点。

So, if you're, for instance, somebody who doesn't want to drink alcohol anymore, and you went to the university that I went to, where everyone drank, like everyone drank, you're fighting a pretty tough uphill battle.

所以，举例来说，如果你是一个不想再喝酒的人，而你去了我去过的大学，那里每个人都喝酒，就像每个人都喝酒一样，那么你正在打一场相当艰难的艰苦战斗。

Andrew Huberman: My experience was that the only way to win that battle the first time and every time is to make the battle the point, where you basically are like, "You zig, I zag." You have to take this kind of antagonistic stance.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我的经验是，第一次和每次都赢得这场战斗的唯一方法就是让战斗成为重点，你基本上会说，“你曲折，我曲折。”你必须采取这种对抗的立场。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？

"I'm not going to be like you." And that's a frustrating thing because it can separate you from people in social gatherings.

“我不会像你一样。”这是一件令人沮丧的事情，因为它会让你与社交聚会中的人分开。

James Clear: I was going to say, that's kind of a hard place to live.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我想说，那是一个很难居住的地方。

Andrew Huberman: It's very effective.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这非常有效。

I did drink a bit in college, but drinking was never really a big thing for me anyway, so it was easy to do or easy not to do, just by virtue of where I was and me.

我在大学里确实喝过一点，但喝酒对我来说从来都不是一件大事，所以喝酒很容易，也很容易不喝酒，这取决于我所处的位置和我自己。

But as an example, I think, yeah, when you take this, everyone else sleeps in, I get up at 4:00 a.m.

但举个例子，我想，是的，当你看这个时，其他人都睡了，我凌晨 4:00 起床。

You know why?

你知道为什么吗？

Well, because I'm not like them.

嗯，因为我和他们不一样。

I think it works, but it's a separator.

我认为它有效，但它是一个分隔符。

Andrew Huberman: And so, I think this question of how can we build good habits, break bad habits, but stay in the context that we're in, it runs countercurrent to some of the things we were talking about earlier, like surround yourself with good books and information, surround yourself with people that are doing the kinds of things you want to do.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我认为这个问题是我们如何养成好习惯，改掉坏习惯，但要留在我们所处的环境中，它与我们之前讨论的一些事情背道而驰，比如让自己置身于好书和信息之中，让自己周围都是正在做你想做的事情的人。

And a lot of people are living in these landscapes where the people around them are going the wrong direction, or at least not supportive of the right direction.

很多人生活在这样的环境中，周围的人都走错了方向，或者至少不支持正确的方向。

James Clear: I think the hard part about what you just described is it's fight, not flow.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我认为你刚才描述的最困难的部分是战斗，而不是流畅。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

James Clear: Right?

詹姆斯·克利尔：对吗？

It's what we were saying earlier.

这就是我们之前所说的。

And it's possible to fight your environment for a while, but it's hard to live that way for the long run.

与环境作斗争是可能的，但从长远来看，很难这样生活。

Sometimes I almost view environment as a form of gravity.

有时我几乎将环境视为重力的一种形式。

And I mean both the physical environment and the social one.

我指的是物理环境和社会环境。

Physical environment is always nudging you to do certain things in certain spaces.

物理环境总是促使你在特定的空间做特定的事情。

Right now, I am sitting here because this is where the chair is.

现在，我坐在这里，因为这就是椅子所在的地方。

James Clear: Now, I could sit anywhere else in this room, but I would be sitting on the floor, and so the environment is kind of ushering me to sit in this spot, right?

詹姆斯·克利尔：现在，我可以坐在这个房间的任何其他地方，但我会坐在地板上，所以环境有点引导我坐在这个位置，对吧？

I'm always sort of being nudged.

我总是被人轻推。

It's like a form of gravity pulling me here for this behavior.

这就像一种重力将我拉到这里的这种行为。

I could try to figure out a way to get out of this room that doesn't use the door, but I got to break through the wall, or I got to climb through the ceiling, or something that is very high friction.

我可以尝试找出一种方法离开这个不使用门的房间，但我必须突破墙壁，或者我必须爬过天花板，或者一些摩擦力非常大的东西。

So, I'm always being nudged towards using the door to get out of the space.

所以，我总是被催促使用门离开这个空间。

James Clear: All of your spaces, those examples sound quite obvious, but all of the spaces that you're in are like that all day long.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你所有的空间，这些例子听起来很明显，但你所在的所有空间整天都是这样。

There's always something that is easy and natural and consistent to do with the environment, and you're always sort of being ushered in that direction.

总有一些事情是简单、自然、与环境相一致的，你总是被引导向那个方向。

So, do your physical spaces contribute to the habits that you're trying to build?

那么，您的物理空间是否有助于您尝试养成的习惯？

When they do, it's easier to build those behaviors.

当他们这样做时，就更容易养成这些行为。

When they don't, you're fighting an uphill battle.

当他们不这样做时，你将面临一场艰苦的战斗。

The social environment is perhaps an even stronger form of that.

社会环境或许是其中更强烈的形式。

James Clear: If there was any one thing that I could add to "Atomic Habits" that wasn't in there, it would be more on the social environment.

詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）：如果我可以在《原子习惯》中添加任何一件事，而《原子习惯》中没有，那我会更多地关注社会环境。

I have a chapter on the influence of friends and family, so it's not like I didn't know that it was part of it.

我有一章是关于朋友和家人的影响的，所以我并不是不知道它是其中的一部分。

But the impact of social environment on our behaviors is so strong and so dramatic, it's like that classic line of a fish in water that are like, "What is water?" We almost don't even see it anymore because it's just everywhere.

但社会环境对我们行为的影响是如此强烈和戏剧性，就像鱼在水中的那句经典台词一样，“水是什么？”我们几乎不再看到它了，因为它无处不在。

It's so pervasive.

它是如此普遍。

But we are all part of multiple groups.

但我们都是多个群体的一部分。

James Clear: Some of those groups are really large, like what it means to be American, or what it means to be French.

詹姆斯·克利尔：其中一些群体非常大，比如作为美国人意味着什么，或者作为法国人意味着什么。

Some of those groups are smaller, like what it means to be a member of the local CrossFit gym, or a neighbor on your street, or a volunteer at the elementary school.

其中一些群体规模较小，例如成为当地 CrossFit 健身房的成员、街道上的邻居或小学的志愿者意味着什么。

But all of the groups that you belong to, large and small, have a set of shared expectations, a set of social norms, a set of typical habits that people do in that group.

但你所属的所有群体，无论大小，都有一套共同的期望、一套社会规范、一套人们在该群体中所做的典型习惯。

James Clear: And when your habits are aligned, when they go with the grain of the expectations of that group, they're easy to stick to, because you get praised for it, you get rewarded for it, you get welcomed for it.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当你的习惯一致时，当它们符合该群体的期望时，它们很容易坚持下去，因为你会因此而受到赞扬，你会因此而得到奖励，你会因此而受到欢迎。

And when your habits go against the grain of the expectations of the group, you get ostracized, you get criticized, you get judged, and nobody likes that.

当你的习惯违背了团队的期望时，你就会受到排斥、批评、评判，没有人喜欢这样。

It doesn't feel good.

感觉不太好。

And so humans, at some deep biological level, are incredibly social creatures.

因此，在某些深层次的生物学层面上，人类是令人难以置信的社会生物。

James Clear: We all want to bond and connect, even if it's just your little friend or family unit.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我们都希望建立联系和联系，即使只是你的小朋友或家人。

Like, we all want to be part of something and be connected to people.

就像，我们都想成为某事的一部分并与人建立联系。

And so when people have to choose between, "I have the habits that I want, but I'm ostracized, I'm criticized, I'm cast out," or, "I have habits that I don't really love, but I fit in, I belong, I'm accepted, I'm praised," a lot of the time, the desire to belong will overpower the desire to improve.

因此，当人们必须在“我有我想要的习惯，但我被排斥、被批评、被赶出”和“我有我并不真正喜欢的习惯，但我融入、我有归属感、我被接受、我被赞扬”之间做出选择时，很多时候，归属感的渴望会压倒改进的渴望。

James Clear: And so, I feel like, for the long run, the only answer is you have to get those two things aligned.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我觉得，从长远来看，唯一的答案是你必须让这两件事保持一致。

Sometimes, sure, maybe you need to, the harsh ways are like fire your friends or never see somebody again, or whatever.

有时，当然，也许你需要，严厉的方式就像解雇你的朋友或再也见不到某人，或者其他什么。

Andrew Huberman: Fire your friends?

安德鲁·休伯曼：解雇你的朋友？

James Clear: Right, yeah.

詹姆斯·克利尔：对，是的。

Have you ever heard that one?

你听过这句话吗？

Andrew Huberman: No.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不。

James Clear: Some people are like, "Yeah, you need to get new friends" or whatever.

詹姆斯·克利尔：有些人会说，“是的，你需要交新朋友”之类的。

Andrew Huberman: No, no, I love my friends.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不，不，我爱我的朋友。

I love them.

我爱他们。

James Clear: I don't think you need to be that extreme about it.

James Clear：我认为你不需要那么极端。

But what I do think you need is a space that is conducive to the habit you're trying to build.

但我确实认为你需要的是一个有利于你试图养成习惯的空间。

So, if you live with people who have no interest in yoga but you want to get into it, fine.

所以，如果你和那些对瑜伽不感兴趣但你想接触瑜伽的人住在一起，那没问题。

You don't need to do it at home or in your apartment.

您不需要在家里或公寓里进行。

You can go to a yoga studio for an hour, and that's a space that's conducive to the habit, where you're surrounded by people who are doing it.

你可以去瑜伽馆练习一个小时，那是一个有利于养成这种习惯的空间，你周围都是练习瑜伽的人。

And I think this is the real punchline, the real takeaway, is you want to join groups where your desired behavior is the normal behavior.

我认为这是真正的笑点，真正的要点是，你想加入那些你想要的行为是正常行为的团体。

James Clear: Because if your desired behavior is normal, now you can rise together, right?

詹姆斯·克利尔：因为如果你想要的行为是正常的，那么现在你们就可以一起崛起，对吗？

You can soak up the behaviors of that group.

你可以吸收该群体的行为。

So, sometimes those spaces are ready-made, like there's tons of yoga studios.

所以，有时这些空间是现成的，就像有大量的瑜伽工作室一样。

It's not hard to find one.

找到一个并不难。

But other times, you need to be the one to create the space.

但其他时候，您需要成为创造空间的人。

So, early in my career, I don't really have anybody in my family who was an entrepreneur, and I don't have anybody who's an author.

所以，在我职业生涯的早期，我的家人中没有人是企业家，也没有人是作家。

James Clear: So, I'm like, "All right, I want to start this thing, but I don't really know who to look to." So, I started reaching out to a bunch of different authors and stuff, cold email people.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我想，“好吧，我想开始这件事，但我真的不知道该找谁。”所以，我开始联系一群不同的作者和其他人，冷电子邮件的人。

I think I cold emailed about 300 people in the first six months, and maybe 30 of them got in touch and were like, "Yeah, I'll chat with you for 30 minutes," or whatever.

我想我在前 6 个月里给大约 300 个人发了冷电子邮件，其中可能有 30 个人联系了我，并说：“是的，我会和你聊 30 分钟，”或者诸如此类。

So, I knew a few people, and then I went to a conference, and there were maybe 10 of those people there, so I got to meet some people in person.

所以，我认识一些人，然后我去参加了一个会议，那里可能有 10 个人，所以我必须亲自见到一些人。

So, it's like, okay, six months in, I know a couple people now.

所以，好吧，六个月后，我现在认识了几个人。

James Clear: And then I started hosting these retreats, where I would get six or eight authors together, and I would just say, "Let's split the cost of an Airbnb, get together for two or three days, and we'll talk about how to write books and launch books and build an audience and grow an email list," and all the stuff that nonfiction authors are focused on.

詹姆斯·克利尔：然后我开始主持这些静修会，我会让六到八个作者聚在一起，我只会说，“让我们分摊 Airbnb 的费用，聚在一起两三天，我们将讨论如何写书、推出书籍、建立读者群体和扩大电子邮件列表，”以及非小说类作家关注的所有内容。

And it was almost always one of the best weekends of my year.

这几乎总是我一年中最美好的周末之一。

And I was worried that I was going to invite people and then look like a dork, and people would be like, "No, I don't want to come," and whatever.

我担心我会邀请人们，然后看起来像个傻瓜，人们会说，“不，我不想来”，等等。

But everybody always said yes, and it's because everybody wants the same thing.

但每个人总是说“是”，因为每个人都想要同样的东西。

James Clear: They're all waiting for somebody to get like-minded people together where we can share ideas and be around people who are wrestling with the same problems.

詹姆斯·克利尔：他们都在等待有人将志同道合的人聚集在一起，在那里我们可以分享想法，并与正在努力解决相同问题的人们在一起。

So, that was not a space that was ready-made, but it really helped a lot of my writing and business habits, if we want to call them that.

所以，这不是一个现成的空间，但它确实帮助了我的很多写作和商业习惯，如果我们想这么称呼的话。

It helped my growth in that area.

它帮助我在该领域的成长。

And it's just about joining groups or creating groups where your desired behavior is normal.

这只是加入群组或创建您想要的行为正常的群组。

Andrew Huberman: I love the notion of creating groups if they're not available to you.

Andrew Huberman：如果您不方便的话，我喜欢创建群组的想法。

I can say, having had to go against the grain of my environment many times, that if the habit or the thing that you're doing alone is a positive one, like exercise or something like that, chances are people are going to be seeking you out at some point in the future, asking how you achieved that thing.

我可以说，在多次违背我的环境的原则之后，如果你独自做的习惯或事情是积极的，比如锻炼或类似的事情，那么人们很可能会在未来的某个时候找到你，询问你是如何实现这一目标的。

Almost always.

几乎总是如此。

Andrew Huberman: But it's hard to go at things alone or even to just be part of a new community, where you don't really know people that well or just know them online, and things like that.

Andrew Huberman：但是单独做事或者只是成为新社区的一部分都很难，因为你并不真正了解人们，或者只是在网上认识他们，诸如此类的事情。

But I also encourage people to build what might not be there because, yeah, provided it's a good habit, I think people will, as they say, others will join you.

但我也鼓励人们建立一些可能不存在的东西，因为，是的，只要这是一个好习惯，我认为人们会像他们所说的那样，其他人会加入你的行列。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: What's coming to mind is when in my scientific career, I'd go to these meetings, basically.

Andrew Huberman：我想到的是，在我的科学生涯中，基本上我会参加这些会议。

People would sit all day, eat all day, and drink all night, basically, and then sleep, and it was super unhealthy, and I realized, I was like, "I always feel like garbage at these things."

人们基本上会整天坐着，吃一整天，喝一整夜，然后睡觉，这是非常不健康的，我意识到，我就像，“在这些事情上我总是感觉自己像垃圾。”

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: So, I was like, "You know what?

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我当时想，“你知道吗？

I'm just going to skip a couple sessions.

我只是要跳过几节课。

Those talks aren't that good.

这些谈话不太好。

I know those people.

我认识那些人。

They don't give good talks, or maybe they do.

他们不会发表精彩的演讲，或者也许他们会发表精彩的演讲。

I'm willing to miss it so I can go get a workout in." And only once did I ever run into a colleague in the gym, and I was like, "Well, it's kind of like this thing, oh, you do this too?" And I won't say who this is, but he's a super successful scientist, is a member of the National Academy, and all this stuff.

我愿意错过它，这样我就可以去锻炼了。”我只在健身房遇到过一次同事，我当时就想，“嗯，有点像这样的事情，哦，你也这样做吗？”我不会说他是谁，但他是一位超级成功的科学家，是国家科学院的成员，等等。

Andrew Huberman: And he's like, "Oh, yeah, if I just sit all day, there's no way I can pay attention.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他就像是，“哦，是的，如果我整天坐着，我就无法集中注意力。

It just goes in one ear and out the other, and some of the talks just aren't really that good." And I was like, "Whoa," like that was the validation I needed.

它只是一只耳朵进，另一只耳朵出，有些谈话并不是那么好。”我当时想，“哇，”这就是我需要的验证。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I would've been doing it anyway, but I felt like maybe there was something wrong with me.

Andrew Huberman：无论如何我都会这样做，但我觉得我可能出了问题。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Nowadays, I think things have changed.

安德鲁·休伯曼：现在，我认为事情已经发生了变化。

I think that scientists are encouraged to take good care of their bodies too, but it ran counter to the kind of stereotype.

我认为科学家也被鼓励照顾好自己的身体，但这与这种刻板印象背道而驰。

Like you're at a meeting.

就像你在开会一样。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: You're supposed to be at the meeting.

Andrew Huberman：你应该参加会议。

Of course, you're not supposed to spend the whole time exercising and hanging out, but I noticed people don't miss happy hour.

当然，你不应该把所有时间都花在锻炼和闲逛上，但我注意到人们不会错过欢乐时光。

I wasn't really into hanging out at the bar.

我不太喜欢在酒吧闲逛。

Always I would catch colds and stuff.

我总是会感冒什么的。

People are always shouting.

人们总是在喊叫。

Next day, everyone's like, "I feel like garbage." There's so many things that happen in the professional context that limit performance, and nowadays I think people are much healthier.

第二天，每个人都会说，“我感觉自己像个垃圾。”在专业环境中发生的很多事情都会限制绩效，而现在我认为人们更加健康。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: So, I do think that communities change, but it requires some people breaking out from those communities.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我确实认为社区会发生变化，但这需要一些人脱离这些社区。

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

Andrew Huberman: So, I'm a big fan of what you're saying.

Andrew Huberman：所以，我非常喜欢你所说的。

Sorry to run long with my example, but it hits home, because I think that how we grow up, we carry that stuff forward, which raises a question.

很抱歉我的例子太长了，但这很切中要害，因为我认为我们如何成长，我们如何将这些东西发扬光大，这提出了一个问题。

You're a Midwest guy.

你是一个中西部人。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I have to imagine that some of the practicality and just good practices that you talk about, it does kind of fit with my stereotypes about the Midwest.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我必须想象，你所说的一些实用性和良好实践，确实符合我对中西部的刻板印象。

James Clear: That's cool.

詹姆斯·克利尔：那很酷。

Great.

伟大的。

I'll take it.

我要买它。

Andrew Huberman: There's a lot of decency to people in the Midwest.

安德鲁·休伯曼：中西部地区的人们很有礼貌。

Like maybe there's this combination of Scandinavian influence, like some of those areas were ag areas before.

就像也许有斯堪的纳维亚影响的结合，就像其中一些地区以前是农业地区一样。

I mean, you've got cities, of course, in the Midwest too, but to what extent did you grow up in a family where people cared about habits and self-care, or are you the breakout?

我的意思是，当然，在中西部也有城市，但你在多大程度上是在一个人们关心习惯和自我保健的家庭中长大的，或者你是突破口？

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

James Clear: I'm born and raised in Ohio.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我在俄亥俄州出生和长大。

I love Ohio.

我爱俄亥俄州。

Was an Ohio boy my whole life.

我一生都是俄亥俄男孩。

Went to school there.

去那里上学。

Now I've traveled a lot and been to over 40 countries, and travel around the world and all this stuff.

现在我已经旅行了很多次，去过 40 多个国家，并环游世界等等。

But I still love it there, and I still live there.

但我仍然喜欢那里，我仍然住在那里。

I was just saying this to my wife the other day.

前几天我刚刚对我妻子说了这句话。

James Clear: In some ways, I feel like everything that I teach through "Atomic Habits" and the writing that I do is just me teaching what my parents taught me, but to the public.

詹姆斯·克利尔：在某些方面，我觉得我通过“原子习惯”教授的一切以及我所做的写作只是我在教我父母教我的东西，但面向公众。

And I have come to appreciate it more and more as I've gotten older.

随着年龄的增长，我越来越欣赏它。

I think I just had really good parents.

我想我有非常好的父母。

I think I just got very lucky, and so, yeah, that was a huge one.

我想我只是非常幸运，所以，是的，那是一个巨大的幸运。

My dad played professional baseball.

我父亲打职业棒球。

He played in the minor leagues for the St. Louis Cardinals and then had a long career in the insurance industry.

他曾为圣路易斯红雀队效力于小联盟，随后在保险业度过了漫长的职业生涯。

James Clear: My mom was a nurse for her first career, and then my sister got leukemia when she was three, and so she took time off to be with her while she was recovering.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我妈妈的第一份职业是护士，然后我姐姐三岁时得了白血病，所以她在康复期间抽出时间陪伴她。

And then she had, 10 years later, a second act as an assistant in a preschool classroom for kids that were high needs, like autism and things like that.

十年后，她第二次担任学前班教室的助理，为有高需求的孩子（如自闭症和类似的孩子）服务。

And yeah, I don't know.

是的，我不知道。

They both have habits that they're quite good at, even now.

他们都有自己非常擅长的习惯，即使是现在也是如此。

Like they both like to swim.

就像他们都喜欢游泳一样。

James Clear: And so, they get up, and they go swim at 5:00 or 6:00 a.m.

James Clear：所以，他们早上 5:00 或 6:00 起床去游泳。

They're like farmers.

他们就像农民一样。

They get up super early.

他们起得很早。

They get up early, and they go swim, and they're very diligent and reliable about it.

他们起得很早，他们去游泳，而且他们非常勤奋和可靠。

I think I have picked up things from each of them.

我想我从他们每个人身上都学到了东西。

My mom is the type of person that she really sticks with things, so it'd be very hard for her to start a book and then quit it.

我妈妈是那种很坚持做事的人，所以她很难开始写一本书然后退出。

She would never want to quit a book.

她永远不想放弃一本书。

I'm like, "You need to quit more books," but she wants to see it through.

我说，“你需要戒掉更多的书，”但她想坚持到底。

James Clear: My dad is very driven and competitive, but also very outgoing and warm, and yeah, easy to talk to.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我的父亲非常有动力、有竞争力，但也非常外向、热情，是的，很容易交谈。

So, yeah, I don't know.

所以，是的，我不知道。

I soaked up lots of things from both of them.

我从他们俩身上学到了很多东西。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: The other person that really did shape some of my early habits was my grandpa.

詹姆斯·克利尔：另一个真正塑造了我早期习惯的人是我的祖父。

I think less about him in terms of being diligent with habits.

在勤于习惯方面，我对他的看法较少。

I think more about it in terms of mindset.

我更多的是从心态上思考。

His big thing was always PMA, positive mental attitude, is what he said.

他说，他最重要的是PMA，即积极的心态。

Andrew Huberman: Love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：喜欢。

James Clear: And so much of what I try to teach my kids now or the outlook that I try to have is around that.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我现在试图教我的孩子们的很多东西或者我试图拥有的观点都是围绕这一点。

It's going into each day and trying to emphasize the good things that are going to happen, and trying to focus on and emphasize the good things that could happen or that I'm trying to do.

它进入每一天，努力强调即将发生的好事，并努力关注和强调可能发生的或我正在尝试做的好事。

There will always be hardships that come up, but I'm trying not to hold onto those too much.

总会有困难出现，但我会尽量不去抓住这些。

I'm kind of wary of anybody whose primary mode of operation is to be like a martyr.

我对那些以成为烈士为主要行事方式的人持谨慎态度。

James Clear: I feel like that's a draining type of person to be around.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我觉得和这样的人在一起会让人筋疲力尽。

There are always things that are not going to go well, but that doesn't mean those have to be the ones that we live by each day.

总有一些事情不会进展顺利，但这并不意味着这些事情必须是我们每天赖以生存的事情。

So, I think that part of my mindset came from him, but the three of them definitely played a big role in my approach.

所以，我认为我的部分心态来自于他，但他们三个在我的方法中确实发挥了重要作用。

Andrew Huberman: Are your kids starting to adopt habits based on the things you've taught them?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：你的孩子是否开始根据你教给他们的东西养成习惯？

I mean, clearly you're teaching them things.

我的意思是，显然你在教他们东西。

You described some of those earlier.

您之前描述了其中一些。

Do you notice those things starting to emerge reflexively?

您是否注意到那些事情开始条件反射地出现？

James Clear: My kids are all still very young, but it's interesting how fast it happens.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我的孩子们都还很小，但有趣的是事情发生得如此之快。

A couple lessons that I've had so far.

到目前为止我已经学到的一些教训。

The first is, you are always teaching them.

首先，你总是在教导他们。

You are teaching before you even think you're teaching.

在你认为自己在教书之前，你就已经在教书了。

Months before they'll say their first word, right, you're teaching them how to talk.

几个月前他们就会说出第一个词，对吧，你正在教他们如何说话。

To my oldest, reading to her from the very start, we read more with her than the next two, just based on time.

对于我最大的孩子来说，从一开始就给她读书，我们和她一起读的书比后面两个多，只是根据时间。

James Clear: She had an incredible vocabulary very early on, and I think it's because we read to her so much, and it was just hours a day.

詹姆斯·克利尔：她很早就拥有令人难以置信的词汇量，我认为这是因为我们给她读书太多了，而且每天只有几个小时。

So, that's interesting.

所以，这很有趣。

You're always learning, and I think that applies to adults.

你总是在学习，我认为这也适用于成年人。

It applies to everybody.

它适用于每个人。

Another way to phrase it would be, every moment has a stimulus, and that stimulus is always shaping you.

另一种说法是，每时每刻都有刺激，而这种刺激总是在塑造你。

So, mentally, it's shaping you in terms of what you're receiving or the inputs that you're taking in.

因此，从精神上来说，它正在根据你所接收的内容或你所接受的输入来塑造你。

Physically, there's also a stimulus.

从身体上来说，也有刺激。

James Clear: I got dinner with this guy one time who's a movement specialist, and he spent the whole dinner sitting cross-legged in the chair in perfect upright posture.

詹姆斯·克利尔：有一次我和一个运动专家共进晚餐，他整个晚餐都以完美的直立姿势盘腿坐在椅子上。

And my takeaway after that dinner, I was talking to him about it because it's such a strange way to have dinner with somebody, is he was basically like, "Everything is a stimulus." Right now, you are not in the gym, but you are training your body how to sit and what your posture looks like and how to respond to that stimulus.

晚餐后我的收获是，我和他谈论了这件事，因为与某人共进晚餐是一种奇怪的方式，他基本上是这样的，“一切都是刺激。”现在，你不在健身房，但你正在训练你的身体如何坐、你的姿势是什么样的以及如何对刺激做出反应。

James Clear: So, he tries to live his whole day like that.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，他试图这样度过一整天。

It's almost like one ongoing workout session.

这几乎就像一场持续的锻炼。

I don't know that I could actually live that way, but I do think that it's a very interesting idea, and it makes sense.

我不知道我是否真的可以那样生活，但我确实认为这是一个非常有趣的想法，而且很有意义。

All the things that your body's experiencing impact you both physically and mentally.

您身体所经历的所有事情都会对您的身体和精神产生影响。

So, that's one takeaway.

所以，这是一个要点。

James Clear: And then the second takeaway for my kids and how habits are kind of...

詹姆斯·克利尔：然后是我孩子们的第二个收获，以及习惯是如何......

I'm learning in my personal life too, is so much of it is about putting them in good positions, and that is something that we all can learn from.

我也在个人生活中学习，其中很大一部分是为了让他们处于有利的位置，这是我们所有人都可以学习的。

It's, if the conditions are right, then the habits form easily.

是的，如果条件合适，习惯很容易养成。

And I think that in a lot of ways, one of the more important questions to ask is, am I creating the conditions for success?

我认为在很多方面，要问的更重要的问题之一是，我是否为成功创造了条件？

So, I'll give you an example that I applied to my personal life.

所以，我会给你一个我个人生活中应用的例子。

James Clear: I've had a good exercise habit, a good workout and training program for the last 20 years or so.

James Clear：在过去 20 年左右的时间里，我一直有良好的锻炼习惯、良好的锻炼和训练计划。

All the way through having our first kid, I did a really good job.

在生第一个孩子的整个过程中，我做得非常好。

I actually was in very good shape when our second was born, and then I had a year that was just tough.

事实上，当我们的第二个孩子出生时，我的状态非常好，然后我度过了艰难的一年。

We had little babies, and it got harder, and then we decided to have a third, and I could just see that this was my time is getting compressed.

我们生了小孩子，生活变得更加困难，然后我们决定要第三个，我可以看到我的时间正在被压缩。

"Atomic Habits" is like runaway freight train.

《原子习惯》就像失控的货运列车。

I'm trying to keep a hold of that.

我正在努力抓住这一点。

There's a lot of demands on time.

对时间的要求很高。

James Clear: And so, I hired a trainer to start right around when our third was born, and the interesting thing about that is that I don't miss workouts anymore.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，当我们的第三个孩子出生时，我聘请了一位教练来开始训练，有趣的是我不再错过训练了。

I don't necessarily...

我不一定...

The workouts are good.

锻炼效果很好。

It's not anything about quality or anything like that.

这与质量或类似的事情无关。

But I don't miss.

但我不会错过。

And it's just because he's showing up.

这只是因为他的出现。

Everybody in the house respects it.

家里的每个人都尊重它。

It's like, "Oh, this has to happen this time.

就像是，“哦，这一次必须发生。

Somebody else is coming in."

还有人进来了。”

James Clear: So, what I'm getting at is on the surface it looks like, oh, you're having a problem with working out.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，我想说的是，从表面上看，哦，你在锻炼方面遇到了问题。

Let's try to diagnose how can we fix the workout problem.

让我们尝试诊断如何解决锻炼问题。

That really wasn't the problem.

那确实不是问题。

The problem wasn't me doing the workout.

问题不在于我进行锻炼。

The problem was, I needed to create the conditions for a workout to happen.

问题是，我需要为锻炼创造条件。

And so, I needed to create the conditions for success.

因此，我需要为成功创造条件。

And by doing that, suddenly everything else fell into place.

通过这样做，其他一切突然就都到位了。

James Clear: And I think if you took that idea seriously and tried to apply it to whatever was important in your life, okay, you want to write a book?

詹姆斯·克利尔：我认为如果你认真对待这个想法并尝试将其应用到你生活中重要的事情上，好吧，你想写一本书吗？

How are you creating the optimal conditions for writing to happen?

您如何为写作创造最佳条件？

You want to meditate more?

你想更多地冥想吗？

How are you creating the conditions for a meditation session to be seamless and easy?

您如何为冥想课程创造无缝且轻松的条件？

And the more that you can do that stuff, the much more likely the habits are to occur.

你做这些事情的次数越多，习惯就越有可能发生。

Andrew Huberman: That's awesome.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

Thank you for giving us a picture, a bit of what your family landscape looks like.

感谢您给我们一张照片，展示一下您的家庭景观。

The reason I ask is I think many people will look to their parents and their upbringing and will say, "Gosh, they had some pretty bad habits," and probably some good ones too, hopefully.

我问这个问题的原因是，我认为很多人都会关注他们的父母和他们的成长经历，并会说，“天哪，他们有一些非常坏的习惯”，但希望也可能有一些好习惯。

And if they don't have any recollection, it's an opportunity to build out that story starting now.

如果他们没有任何记忆，那么这是一个从现在开始构建这个故事的机会。

James Clear: Yep.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I think about this a lot.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我经常思考这个问题。

And I'm realizing, as you tell me this, that much of what I think about when I think about my parents from my childhood is the habits they had.

正如你告诉我的那样，我意识到，当我想起童年时期的父母时，我想到的大部分都是他们的习惯。

Andrew Huberman: My dad took a walk after dinner with my mom.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我爸爸和妈妈吃完晚饭后去散步。

James Clear: Hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: My dad liked to, he would walk and think, and he's a scientist, and he was a theorist, so he could get work done just walking and thinking.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我父亲喜欢，他会边走边思考，他是一名科学家，也是一名理论家，所以他只需边走边思考就能完成工作。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: We tease those.

Andrew Huberman：我们嘲笑这些。

James Clear: That's nice.

詹姆斯·克利尔：那很好。

Andrew Huberman: I was like, yeah, it must be nice, as they say, right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我当时想，是的，正如他们所说，这一定很好，对吧？

It's hard thinking from what I understand, that's why I became an experimentalist.

从我的理解来看，这是很难思考的，这就是我成为一名实验主义者的原因。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I like to work with my hands.

Andrew Huberman：我喜欢用手工作。

But the things that my mom did, that my sister did, that's a lot of the tapestry of my memories.

但我妈妈、我姐姐所做的事情，却成为我记忆中的一部分。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I think that habits perhaps are playing a much bigger role in our lives than just these things that we're trying to build or overcome or break.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为习惯在我们的生活中发挥的作用可能比我们试图建立、克服或打破的东西要大得多。

I think they're a lot of the bedrock of what we call life, right?

我认为它们是我们所谓的生活的基石，对吧？

James Clear: They form an enormous part of our lives.

詹姆斯·克利尔：它们构成了我们生活的重要组成部分。

It's not just the habits themselves and the role that those play, which are critical, but it's also, habits are the entry point or the entrance ramp to so much of the conscious time, or the other things that we do.

至关重要的不仅仅是习惯本身及其所扮演的角色，而且习惯是我们大部分有意识时间或我们所做的其他事情的入口点或入口坡道。

Out of habit, you might pull your phone out, and then the next 30 minutes are you doing things on your phone.

出于习惯，你可能会拿出手机，然后接下来的 30 分钟你就用手机做事。

That was all sparked by that initial reflex of pulling the phone out.

这一切都是由拔出手机的第一反应引发的。

James Clear: And so, in that way, habits are not only impacting our lives for the actual actions that they are, but also the actions that unfold as a natural consequence of doing those things.

詹姆斯·克利尔：这样一来，习惯不仅会影响我们的实际行为，而且还会影响我们做这些事情的自然结果。

So, they have a huge effect.

所以，它们有巨大的影响。

The point that you made about looking at your parents' habits and inheriting maybe some of those, and how those shape our lives, what are the odds that the first way that you learned to do something was the best way?

您提到观察父母的习惯并继承其中的一些习惯，以及这些习惯如何塑造我们的生活，您学会做某事的第一种方法是最好方法的可能性有多大？

It's very unlikely, you know?

这不太可能，你知道吗？

James Clear: One way, we've talked about multiple ways to define a habit, but another way to potentially define it is that habits, I think this comes from Jason Hreha, who is a behavioral scientist, said that habits are solutions to the recurring problems in our environment.

詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear）：一方面，我们讨论了定义习惯的多种方法，但另一种可能定义习惯的方法是习惯，我认为这来自行为科学家贾森·赫雷哈（Jason Hreha），他说习惯是我们环境中反复出现的问题的解决方案。

So, let's say you get done with a long day of work, and you come back, you're kind of exhausted.

所以，假设你结束了一整天的工作，回来时，你有点精疲力尽。

Well, that happens frequently.

嗯，这种情况经常发生。

And so, it's a recurring problem that you face.

因此，这是您反复面临的问题。

How do you solve that problem?

你如何解决这个问题？

James Clear: One person might solve it by going for a run for 30 minutes.

James Clear：一个人可以通过跑步 30 分钟来解决这个问题。

Another person might solve it by playing video games for 30 minutes.

另一个人可能会通过玩 30 分钟的视频游戏来解决这个问题。

Another person might solve it by smoking a cigarette.

另一个人可能会通过抽烟来解决这个问题。

And you can see there's a spectrum of whether these are healthy and productive or less healthy and less productive, but they all are trying to solve that same core problem.

你可以看到，这些是健康且富有成效的，还是不太健康和生产力较低的，但它们都在试图解决同样的核心问题。

James Clear: And what you find is that you get to be 20 or 25 or 28, and a lot of the solutions that you have to these recurring problems that you face are solutions that you inherited or that you saw modeled by your parents or your friends or just whatever you have interfaced with throughout your short life so far.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你会发现，当你到了 20 岁、25 岁或 28 岁的时候，你面对的这些反复出现的问题所拥有的很多解决方案都是你继承的解决方案，或者你看到的由你的父母、朋友模仿的解决方案，或者只是你迄今为止短暂的一生中接触过的任何解决方案。

James Clear: And the realization that we need to eventually have is that as soon as you realize that your solutions may not be the best solution, it's now your responsibility to try to figure out a different way to do it.

James Clear：我们最终需要认识到，一旦您意识到您的解决方案可能不是最佳解决方案，那么现在您就有责任尝试找出不同的方法来实现它。

And that, I think, is the moment when you start to take ownership over your habits and see, okay, it's fine.

我认为，那是你开始掌控自己习惯的时刻，你会发现，好吧，这很好。

I don't need to berate myself for doing things this way.

我不需要因为这样做而责备自己。

I learned what I was exposed to, but there is probably a better way to do it.

我了解了我所接触到的东西，但可能有更好的方法来做到这一点。

James Clear: So, now let me start to wrestle with that and try to figure out what are some different solutions that would solve that same problem that I keep facing, and maybe there's a healthier, or more productive, or a more beneficial way to do it.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，现在让我开始努力解决这个问题，并尝试找出哪些不同的解决方案可以解决我一直面临的同一问题，也许有一种更健康、更高效或更有益的方法来做到这一点。

Andrew Huberman: Awesome.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

James Clear, thank you so much for coming here and teaching us more about habit formation, habit breaking, and also for being willing to explore some of the neuroscience spaces that I rolled out onto the table.

詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear），非常感谢您来到这里，教给我们更多关于习惯形成、习惯打破的知识，也感谢您愿意探索我推出的一些神经科学领域。

I really appreciate it.

我真的很感激。

I'm a huge fan of the book and of the work you're doing.

我是这本书和你正在做的工作的超级粉丝。

Maybe just mention for us what you're most excited about now.

也许只是向我们提及您现在最兴奋的事情。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Because everyone, if they haven't already read "Atomic Habits," they absolutely should and incorporate the tools, but what are you onto now?

Andrew Huberman：因为每个人，如果他们还没有读过《原子习惯》，他们绝对应该并结合这些工具，但你现在在做什么？

James Clear: Sure.

詹姆斯·克利尔：当然。

So, I'm excited about a lot of things.

所以，我对很多事情感到兴奋。

Thank you again for the opportunity.

再次感谢您提供的机会。

It was fun to chat.

聊天很有趣。

So, if you're looking for more on all this, what else can I do to make habits easier, obvious, and so on, "Atomic Habits" is the full guide there.

因此，如果您正在寻找有关这一切的更多信息，我还能做些什么来使习惯变得更容易、更明显等等，“原子习惯”是那里的完整指南。

I also have an "Atomic Habits" workbook that we're coming out with, so it just helps you operationalize some of the things.

我还有一本我们即将推出的“原子习惯”工作簿，因此它只是帮助您实施一些事情。

Okay, I understand the ideas in the book.

好吧，我明白了书上的想法。

How do I apply it to my actual life?

我如何将其应用到我的实际生活中？

So, you can fill out the exercises there.

因此，您可以在那里填写练习。

Andrew Huberman: Great.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。

James Clear: And then we have an "Atomic Habits" daily calendar.

詹姆斯·克利尔：然后我们有一个“原子习惯”每日日历。

It sounds like a silly thing, but it's a page a day, and I've been using it on my own.

这听起来像是一件愚蠢的事情，但每天一页，而且我一直在自己使用它。

It's not out yet.

还没出来呢

It'll be out soon.

很快就会出来的。

There's something very human about needing to be reminded.

需要提醒是非常人性化的。

And so, it's nice to have just a simple daily reminder.

因此，有一个简单的每日提醒就很好了。

They're like little mindset mantras, little reminders about how to build habits, and just one each day, and there's something nice about having it there.

它们就像小思维咒语，关于如何养成习惯的小提醒，每天只有一个，拥有它是有好处的。

So, weirdly am actually excited about this daily calendar.

所以，奇怪的是，我实际上对这个每日日历感到兴奋。

Andrew Huberman: I am too.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我也是。

I think a one-pager is really useful, a one-pager per day.

我认为一页纸非常有用，每天一页。

I usually put out an eight and a half by eleven divided.

我通常会用八分半乘十一除法。

James Clear: Mm-hmm.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I mean, I have my system.

Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，我有我的系统。

It's not important right now.

现在这并不重要。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: But the one page per day thing is awesome.

Andrew Huberman：但是每天一页的内容非常棒。

Is it a bound kind of workbook?

它是一本装订的作业簿吗？

James Clear: No, it's a little calendar that's spiral bound.

詹姆斯·克利尔：不，这是一个螺旋装订的小日历。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: And you can just flip one to the next.

James Clear：你可以将一个翻到下一个。

I had this idea.

我有这个想法。

I had this years ago.

我几年前就有过这个。

I thought, what if I could hire a peak performance coach, and all they did was they just called me each morning at 8:00 a.m., and just gave me one mindset thing, but just five minutes, and just prime me for the day, and then I go into the day, and I'm in the right frame of mind.

我想，如果我可以聘请一位巅峰表现教练，他们所做的就是每天早上 8:00 给我打电话，只给我一种心态上的东西，但只有五分钟，让我为这一天做好准备，然后我就进入了这一天，我就处于正确的心态了。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

James Clear: And so, this calendar is my attempt to kind of do that, where it's like, all you need is just read this one page and then go into your day.

詹姆斯·克利尔：所以，这个日历是我尝试这样做的，就像，你所需要的只是阅读这一页，然后开始你的一天。

And so, anyway, the "Atomic Habits" daily calendar.

无论如何，“原子习惯”每日日历也是如此。

Andrew Huberman: When can we expect that?

Andrew Huberman：我们什么时候可以期待呢？

James Clear: It'll be out in a couple months.

James Clear：几个月后就会发布。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: Oh, great.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，太棒了。

James Clear: Yeah.

詹姆斯·克莱尔：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。

Well, read "Atomic Habits" if you haven't already, folks, and definitely check out the workbook.

好吧，如果你还没有读过“原子习惯”，伙计们，一定要看看工作簿。

I'm going to get the calendar and the workbook.

我要去拿日历和作业簿。

James Clear: There we go.

詹姆斯·克利尔：我们开始吧。

Andrew Huberman: Those are two separate things?

Andrew Huberman：这是两件不同的事情？

Calendar, workbook.

日历、作业本。

James Clear: Yeah, they're two separate things.

詹姆斯·克利尔：是的，它们是两个不同的东西。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: Two separate things.

Andrew Huberman：两件不同的事情。

I'm definitely going to do that.

我肯定会这么做。

I'm not just saying that.

我不只是这么说。

And no, this wasn't all preloaded beforehand.

不，这并不是全部预先加载的。

I want to learn.

我想学习。

I mean, I think I have decent habits, but it can always be better.

我的意思是，我认为我有不错的习惯，但它总是可以更好。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you so much for coming here and sharing all this knowledge.

Andrew Huberman：非常感谢您来到这里并分享所有这些知识。

You gave us so many tools and a real framework to work with those tools, and I'm going to be thinking a lot about context and environment, and especially about that thoughts are downstream of inputs and really thinking hard about the inputs and controlling the inputs better because there's some great quality inputs out there, and there's some less quality inputs.

你们为我们提供了如此多的工具和一个使用这些工具的真实框架，我将深入思考背景和环境，尤其是关于输入下游的想法，并认真思考输入并更好地控制输入，因为那里有一些高质量的输入，也有一些质量较差的输入。

You are absolutely a high-quality input, so thanks for being the high-quality input for everyone.

你绝对是一个高质量的输入，所以感谢你为大家提供的高质量输入。

James Clear: That's great.

詹姆斯·克利尔：那太好了。

Andrew Huberman: And come back again.

安德鲁·休伯曼：然后再回来。

James Clear: You got it.

詹姆斯·克利尔：你明白了。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with James Clear.

Andrew Huberman：感谢您参加今天与 James Clear 的讨论。

To learn more about his work and to find a link to his spectacular book, "Atomic Habits," please see the link in the show note captions.

要了解有关他的作品的更多信息并找到他精彩的著作《原子习惯》的链接，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.

您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。

Andrew Huberman: Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

Andrew Huberman：另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑嘉宾或主题，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.

对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。

It's my very first book.

这是我的第一本书。

It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body."

它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。

Andrew Huberman: This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than thirty years of research and experience.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于三十多年的研究和经验。

And it covers protocols for everything from sleep, to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

它涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼、压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的各个方面的协议，当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。

The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com.

该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。

There, you can find links to various vendors.

在那里，您可以找到各个供应商的链接。

You can pick the one that you like best.

您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。

Andrew Huberman: Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

安德鲁·休伯曼：同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。

So, that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。

Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。

Andrew Huberman: And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one-to-three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.

Andrew Huberman：如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。

We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.

我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。

All of that is available completely zero cost.

所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。

Andrew Huberman: You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to "Newsletter," and enter your email.

Andrew Huberman：您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到“时事通讯”，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。

And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.

我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with James Clear.

再次感谢您参加今天与詹姆斯·克利尔的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。

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