Behaviors That Alter Your Genes to Improve Your Health & Performance | Dr. Melissa Ilardo
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Melissa Ilardo, professor of biomedical informatics at the University of Utah.
今天我的嘉宾是犹他大学生物医学信息学教授 Melissa Ilardo 博士。
Dr. Ilardo is a world-renowned expert in human genetics and epigenetics.
Ilardo博士是世界著名的人类遗传学和表观遗传学专家。
She conducts pioneering studies on how our behavior and the environment can modify our gene expression.
她对我们的行为和环境如何改变我们的基因表达进行了开创性的研究。
Today marks the first time on the Huberman Lab podcast that we really explore human genetics, epigenetics, and how behavior shapes gene expression across generations.
今天标志着我们第一次在胡伯曼实验室播客上真正探索人类遗传学、表观遗传学以及行为如何影响代际间的基因表达。
We talk about the inheritance of physical traits like eye color, and we dive deep into fascinating mechanisms such as the mammalian dive reflex, a physiological reaction to breath-holding in cold water that, as Dr. Ilardo explains, can dramatically alter the physiology of your spleen to allow significant increases in red blood cell count and oxygen availability to your brain and body.
我们讨论眼睛颜色等身体特征的遗传，并深入研究令人着迷的机制，例如哺乳动物潜水反射，这是一种在冷水中屏气的生理反应，正如伊拉多博士解释的那样，它可以显着改变脾脏的生理机能，从而显着增加红细胞计数以及大脑和身体的氧气利用率。
And by the way, the mammalian dive reflex can be activated outside of free diving, and you can even do it at home.
顺便说一句，哺乳动物的潜水反射可以在自由潜水之外激活，甚至可以在家中进行。
We also explore how mate preference and selection in humans relates to the immune system.
我们还探讨了人类的择偶偏好和选择与免疫系统的关系。
That is, if you were given a choice of many different mates, as most people are, the mate you would select is the mate who has the immune system composition that is most different from yours, and you would know that on the basis of their smell and how attractive their smell is to you compared to the smell of other people.
也就是说，如果像大多数人一样，让你在许多不同的伴侣中进行选择，你会选择免疫系统成分与你最不同的伴侣，并且你会根据他们的气味以及与其他人的气味相比，他们的气味对你的吸引力有多大来知道这一点。
We also talk about how differences in external traits signal important variations in organ function, hormone levels, and even brain physiology.
我们还讨论了外部特征的差异如何表明器官功能、激素水平甚至大脑生理学的重要变化。
Toward the end of our conversation, we discuss the current state and ethical considerations of gene editing in humans, something that's apt to be an increasingly important topic in the years to come because gene editing in humans is now possible and is happening.
在我们的谈话即将结束时，我们讨论了人类基因编辑的现状和伦理考虑，这在未来几年可能会成为一个越来越重要的话题，因为人类基因编辑现在是可能的并且正在发生。
As you'll soon learn, Dr. Ilardo does incredible real-world experiments that reveal the remarkable interplay between genes and behavior, and she's an absolutely phenomenal teacher who makes complex genetic concepts accessible and practical.
正如您很快就会了解到的那样，伊拉多博士做了令人难以置信的现实世界实验，揭示了基因和行为之间显着的相互作用，她是一位绝对出色的老师，她使复杂的遗传概念变得易于理解和实用。
The conversation is sure to change the way that you think about mate selection, your parents, their parents, and what you can do to optimize your physiology and health through behavioral practices that influence gene expression.
这次谈话肯定会改变你对择偶、你的父母、他们的父母的看法，以及你可以通过影响基因表达的行为实践来优化你的生理和健康的方式。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，这一集确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Melissa Ilardo.
现在我与 Melissa Ilardo 博士进行讨论。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo, welcome.
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nature versus nurture, super big question that we all wonder about.
先天与后天的对比，这是我们都想知道的超级大问题。
How much of our capabilities and potential and just general themes of life, everything from how we look to what we're capable of doing or not doing in the moment, or where we might be able to improve or not improve, we hear some of it's nature, some of it's nurture.
我们的能力和潜力有多少，以及生活的一般主题，从我们的外表到我们当下能够做什么或不做什么，或者我们可能能够改进或不能改进的一切，我们听到一些是天生的，一些是后天的。
So if we take a step back and we just ask a big question about human genetics, how much of our DNA is modifiable by our environment and what we do, what we choose to do in particular, because that's most of what we're going to emphasize today.
因此，如果我们退后一步，我们只是问一个关于人类遗传学的大问题，我们的 DNA 有多少可以被我们的环境和我们所做的事情，特别是我们选择做什么所改变，因为这是我们今天要强调的大部分内容。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
I think that's something we're still understanding at this point.
我认为这是我们目前仍在理解的事情。
I think every day we're getting more and more information about the ways that we can actually modify gene expression and these things that we thought were totally predetermined in the past.
我认为我们每天都会获得越来越多的信息，了解我们实际上可以修改基因表达的方式，以及我们认为过去完全预先确定的这些事情。
And so, I think we're still learning with epigenetics and all of these new fields, just how much we can actually change things.
因此，我认为我们仍在通过表观遗传学和所有这些新领域来学习，我们实际上可以在多大程度上改变事物。
There are, of course, things that are kind of written in our genes, but I think we're learning that there's a lot more that we can change.
当然，有些事情是写在我们的基因中的，但我认为我们正在认识到我们可以改变的还有很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most of us, at some point in high school, learn Mendelian genetics.
我们大多数人在高中的某个时候都会学习孟德尔遗传学。
Right?
正确的？
Mendel, the monk, and his peas in his garden.
孟德尔，僧侣，和他花园里的豌豆。
Most people probably don't remember the details of that, but we also learn about eye color.
大多数人可能不记得其中的细节，但我们也了解眼睛的颜色。
It's commonplace for people to understand that if both your parents have dark eyes, with very rare exception, it's unlikely that you're going to get light eyes as a child, but it's possible.
人们普遍认为，如果你的父母都是黑眼睛，除了极少数例外，你小时候不太可能有浅色眼睛，但这是有可能的。
But if you have one light-eyed parent and one dark-eyed parent, then you start to enter the probability game.
但如果你有一位浅色眼睛的父母和一位深色眼睛的父母，那么你就开始进入概率游戏。
And that at some point, your parents dictate a lot of your appearance, your phenotype, and yet that there are aspects of our parents that are not seen in us at all, and vice versa.
在某些时候，你的父母决定了你的很多外表、你的表型，但我们父母的某些方面在我们身上根本看不到，反之亦然。
And so I think for most people, when we think about genes, we think about heritability.
所以我认为对于大多数人来说，当我们考虑基因时，我们会考虑遗传性。
But your work focuses a lot on the aspects of genetic expression that are subject to change based on what people choose to do or are forced to do in order to survive, something we call selection.
但你的工作主要关注基因表达的各个方面，这些方面会根据人们为了生存而选择做什么或被迫做什么而发生变化，我们称之为选择。
So could you tell us about selection in terms of how quickly a given behavior, for example, can change our gene expression?
那么您能否告诉我们有关选择的信息，例如，特定行为可以多快地改变我们的基因表达？
I'm not aware of any way to change one's eye color without putting in a colored contact lens.
我不知道有什么方法可以在不戴彩色隐形眼镜的情况下改变眼睛的颜色。
Now there's some esoteric things showing up online about people using these bizarre treatments to change their eye color.
现在网上出现了一些关于人们使用这些奇怪的治疗方法来改变眼睛颜色的深奥的事情。
But for the most part, people accept that you're not going to change your eye color by behaving differently.
但在大多数情况下，人们认为行为不同不会改变眼睛的颜色。
But what are some examples where we can change our gene expression quickly, or relatively quickly, by doing something differently?
但是，我们可以通过采取不同的措施来快速或相对快速地改变基因表达，有哪些例子呢？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Just going back to eye color, because this is just one of my favorite genetics facts.
回到眼睛的颜色，因为这只是我最喜欢的遗传学事实之一。
So everyone with blue eyes descends from the same person.
所以每个蓝眼睛的人都是同一个人的后裔。
So at one point in human history, one person had a change in their eye color, and it's just amazing to imagine this person who had blue eyes for the first time.
因此，在人类历史上的某个时刻，一个人的眼睛颜色发生了变化，想象这个人第一次拥有蓝眼睛真是令人惊奇。
And then through many generations, probably because that was a very attractive and interesting feature in that individual, that spread throughout human populations as we know them.
然后经过许多代人，可能是因为这是一个非常有吸引力和有趣的特征，在我们所知道的整个人类群体中传播。
So I always just find that to be fun about blue eyes.
所以我总是觉得蓝眼睛很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there was a blue-eyed F1, as we say.
所以正如我们所说，有一个蓝眼睛的 F1。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The first.
第一个。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's stay on eye color for a moment, before we get into how genes can be modified by behavior I've been told that the green eye phenotype is one of the more rare eye colors.
在我们讨论如何通过行为改变基因之前，让我们先讨论一下眼睛的颜色。有人告诉我，绿眼睛表型是更罕见的眼睛颜色之一。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
I think that's right, yeah.
我认为这是对的，是的。
I think it's the most rare.
我认为这是最罕见的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so can we assume that there was an original F1 brown-eyed person that gave rise to the entire lineage of brown eyes subsequently?
好吧，那么我们是否可以假设有一个原始的 F1 棕色眼睛人随后产生了整个棕色眼睛谱系？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, I think in the history of humans as a species, I think that was our original eye color.
是的，我认为在人类作为一个物种的历史上，我认为那是我们最初的眼睛颜色。
And so then, yeah, having these other eye colors arise in the population created these events.
那么，是的，人群中出现这些其他眼睛颜色就造成了这些事件。
I think green eyes, if I'm not mistaken, there were multiple people.
我想绿眼睛，如果我没记错的话，有很多人。
That comes from different genes from different individuals in the history of humans.
它来自人类历史上不同个体的不同基因。
But yeah, blue eyes is just this one individual.
但是，是的，蓝眼睛就是这个人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I realize I'm slightly remiss on the statement about eye color not being subject to behavior.
我意识到我对眼睛颜色不受行为影响的说法有点疏忽。
We know that as you get more sunlight exposure, in particular ultraviolet light exposure, that eyes will darken-
我们知道，当您接触更多的阳光，特别是紫外线，眼睛就会变黑-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
I didn't know that
我不知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
regardless of where they start.
无论他们从哪里开始。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So like a blue-eyed baby will have much bluer eyes at birth-
就像蓝眼睛的婴儿出生时眼睛会更蓝一样——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
than it will at age 15, at age 80, for instance.
例如，与 15 岁时、80 岁时相比。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we believe that's due to changes in pigmentation because of UV exposure.
我们认为这是由于紫外线照射导致色素沉着发生变化。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
That's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, Joovv.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Joovv。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself.
现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光源已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症，甚至线粒体功能，以及改善视力本身。
What sets Joovv lights apart, and why they're my preferred red light therapy device, is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着特定波长的红光和近红外光相结合可以触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周大约使用 Joovv 全身面板三到四次，在家和旅行时我都会使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off Joovv products.
Joovv 为所有 Huberman Lab 听众提供独家折扣，Joovv 产品最高可享受 400 美元的折扣。
Again, that's Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off.
同样，这是 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman 最高可享受 400 美元折扣。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确，这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for over four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上四年多了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
Eight Sleep has just launched their latest model, the Pod 5, and the Pod 5 has several new important features.
八睡眠刚刚推出了他们的最新型号 Pod 5，Pod 5 有几个新的重要功能。
One of these new features is called Autopilot.
这些新功能之一称为自动驾驶仪。
Autopilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
Autopilot 是一款人工智能引擎，可以学习您的睡眠模式，以调整不同睡眠阶段的睡眠环境温度。
It also elevates your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它还会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
The base on the Pod 5 also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the Eight Sleep app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery.
Pod 5 的底座还配有一个集成扬声器，可与八睡眠应用程序同步，并可以播放音频以支持放松和恢复。
The audio catalog includes several NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, scripts that I worked on with Eight Sleep to record.
音频目录包括几个 NSDR、非睡眠深度休息以及我与“八睡眠”一起录制的脚本。
If you're not familiar, NSDR involves listening to an audio script that walks you through a deep body relaxation combined with some very simple breathing exercises, and that combination has been shown in peer-reviewed studies to restore your mental and physical vigor.
如果您不熟悉，NSDR 包括聆听音频脚本，该音频脚本将引导您进行深度身体放松，并结合一些非常简单的呼吸练习，同行评审的研究表明这种组合可以恢复您的精神和身体活力。
And this is great because while we would all like to get to bed on time and get up after a perfect night's sleep, oftentimes we get to bed a little late or later.
这很好，因为虽然我们都希望准时上床睡觉并在完美的睡眠后起床，但我们通常会晚一点或晚一点上床睡觉。
Sometimes we have to get up early and charge into the day because we have our obligations.
有时我们必须早起并开始新的一天，因为我们有自己的义务。
NSDR can help offset some of the negative effects of slight sleep deprivation, and NSDR gets you better at falling back asleep should you wake up in the middle of the night.
NSDR 可以帮助抵消轻微睡眠不足的一些负面影响，并且 NSDR 可以让您在半夜醒来时更好地重新入睡。
It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time.
这是一个极其强大的工具，任何人第一次和每次都可以从中受益。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
Thank you for that, because I think that most everyone is interested in eyes and eye color.
谢谢你，因为我认为大多数人都对眼睛和眼睛颜色感兴趣。
What are the sort of examples that come to mind when you think of rapid changes in gene expression, in any organ, could be at the surface of the body, or it could be internally, that are governed by some change in behavior?
当您想到任何器官中基因表达的快速变化时，您会想到哪些例子，这些变化可能发生在身体表面，也可能发生在内部，并受到某些行为变化的控制？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, so our genes are constantly changing how they're expressing based on what environmental stimulus is coming in.
是的，所以我们的基因会根据环境刺激不断改变它们的表达方式。
So we have these changes that happen on the order of minutes or hours or things like that.
因此，我们的这些变化大约在几分钟或几小时或类似的时间内发生。
Then there's also changes that we're finding out are happening over generations.
我们还发现几代人正在发生的变化。
So we now know that there can be epigenetic changes, so these are changes, little modifications to the genome that happen by molecules actually attaching to the genome and changing how genes express that can be passed down.
所以我们现在知道可能存在表观遗传变化，所以这些变化是由实际附着在基因组上的分子对基因组进行的微小修改，并改变了可以传递的基因表达方式。
So this is really interesting from the perspective of things like trauma.
所以从创伤等角度来看，这真的很有趣。
We know that refugee populations actually have some of these changes that they've inherited from their parents, even if they weren't victims of the event that caused them to be refugees.
我们知道，难民人口实际上有一些从父母那里继承的变化，即使他们不是导致他们成为难民的事件的受害者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Excuse me for interrupting-
抱歉打扰了——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but are those changes that are passed down, are they adaptive?
但那些被传承下来的变化是否具有适应性？
Are they making subsequent populations more resilient or less resilient?
它们是否使后续种群的恢复能力更强还是更弱？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, that's a very good question.
是的，这是一个很好的问题。
In the case of trauma and refugees, I'm not sure.
就创伤和难民而言，我不确定。
I do know in terms of starvation, that's been something that's been studied as well.
我确实知道饥饿问题，这也已经被研究过。
So there was a famine that affected Dutch people several hundred years ago, I think, and that was actually also kind of recorded in these epigenetic changes.
我认为，几百年前发生了一场影响荷兰人的饥荒，这实际上也记录在这些表观遗传变化中。
And so presumably, that's a change that is helping that population to better survive that famine.
因此，据推测，这一变化正在帮助人们更好地渡过饥荒。
So in that way, it's resilient.
所以从这个角度来说，它是有弹性的。
But then you think about in a contemporary situation where food is abundant, maybe that is no longer beneficial, even though at one point it was.
但你想想，在当今食物丰富的情况下，也许这不再有益，尽管在某一时刻是有益的。
And so then we have this other order of change, which is actual changes in the genes themselves that either arise from mutations in these single base pairs, or at many different sites, or things like variation that's already present in the population at a certain amount that then increases in frequency throughout the population.
所以我们就有了另一种变化顺序，这是基因本身的实际变化，这些变化要么是由这些单个碱基对的突变引起的，要么是在许多不同位点的突变，或者是群体中已经存在一定量的变异，然后在整个群体中频率增加。
And this is where a lot of my work has focused.
这就是我的很多工作的重点。
And these are changes that, until recently, we thought would take 5,000 years, 10,000 years at least.
直到最近，我们还认为这些变化需要 5,000 年，至少 10,000 年。
And now we're starting to understand that maybe that can happen in as short as 1,000 years, 2,000 years.
现在我们开始明白，也许这可能会在短短 1000 年、2000 年之内发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This might be slightly out of line with what we're talking about right now, but I'm really fascinated by this concept of hybrid vigor.
这可能与我们现在谈论的内容稍有出入，但我真的对混合活力的概念很着迷。
I was taught, I don't know if the data still hold up, that if you give mice a choice of other mice to mate with to produce offspring with, that they will select a mouse whose major histocompatibility complex, which is a reflection of diversity of immune genes, so to speak, they'll pick the mouse whose immune system is most different from theirs.
有人告诉我，我不知道数据是否仍然成立，如果你让小鼠选择其他小鼠来交配以产生后代，它们会选择一种具有主要组织相容性复合体的小鼠，这是免疫基因多样性的反映，可以这么说，它们会选择免疫系统与它们最不同的小鼠。
Presumably, the just-so story, because we're making stuff up about why they do this, right?
想必，这个故事就是这样，因为我们正在编造他们为什么这样做，对吗？
Nobody really knows.
没有人真正知道。
The just-so story is that they do this in order to produce offspring that have a much broader array of immune genes to be able to combat a much broader array of potential pathogens.
事实就是如此，他们这样做是为了产生具有更广泛免疫基因的后代，从而能够对抗更广泛的潜在病原体。
Is that true in mice still, and is it true in humans as well?
这对于小鼠来说仍然如此吗？对于人类来说也是如此吗？
Do people elect to, if given a choice, produce offspring with people that are more different from them as opposed to similar to them?
如果有选择的话，人们是否会选择与与自己更不同而不是更相似的人一起生育后代？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
So they did a very similar study in humans, and humans also are drawn to other humans that have these differences.
因此，他们在人类身上进行了非常相似的研究，人类也会被具有这些差异的其他人类所吸引。
So it's interesting, especially with the immune system.
所以这很有趣，尤其是免疫系统。
There was a study where I think they had people smell sweaty T-shirts of members of the opposite sex if they were heterosexual, to see how attracted they felt to the person just based on the smell of their sweaty T-shirt.
有一项研究，我认为他们让人们闻异性成员的汗渍 T 恤（如果他们是异性恋），以了解仅仅根据汗渍 T 恤的气味，他们对这个人的吸引力有多大。
And people were more drawn to people who had very different immune systems than their own.
人们更容易被免疫系统与自己截然不同的人所吸引。
So I think this is something, we see it in mice, and it's easy to say, "Oh, they're animals.
所以我认为这是某种东西，我们在老鼠身上看到了这一点，很容易说，“哦，它们是动物。
Of course they do that." But we do it as humans, too, and it'd be interesting to know to what extent that's influencing our choice of mates and spouses.
他们当然这么做。”但我们作为人类也会这样做，了解这在多大程度上影响我们对伴侣和配偶的选择会很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super interesting.
超级有趣。
So they're given a choice of sweaty clothing from the opposite sex-
所以他们可以选择异性的汗湿衣服——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
potential partner, I guess they're-
潜在的合作伙伴，我猜他们是——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I don't know if they were sent out on dates after the- ...
我不知道他们是否在-之后的日期被发送出去
experiment, and they're smelling, let's say, 10 different T-shirts that are sweaty-
实验，比方说，他们闻到了 10 件不同的出汗的 T 恤——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then they rank order them?
然后他们对他们进行排序？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the one they like the most-
而他们最喜欢的就是——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if you go and look at the genome of the person-
如果你去看看这个人的基因组——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
whose sweat was on that clothing?
那件衣服上是谁的汗水？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
And specifically the immune system-
特别是免疫系统——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
...
...
that you're talking about.
你正在谈论的。
The, what is it?
那个，那是什么？
Histocompatibility?
组织相容性？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The major histocompatibility complex.
主要组织相容性复合体。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
The more different they were in that-
他们的不同之处就在于——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
...
...
the more attracted they were to that smell.
他们越是被那种味道所吸引。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's kind of amazing, right?
这有点神奇，对吧？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That smell, which we just think of as, "I like this body odor," "I don't like this body odor," "I love this body odor"-
那种气味，我们只是认为，“我喜欢这种体味”，“我不喜欢这种体味”，“我喜欢这种体味”-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is kind of a proxy for gene expression related to the immune system of the offspring that you haven't even had yet with this smelly T-shirt owning person.
是一种与后代免疫系统相关的基因表达的代表，而这个拥有臭T恤的人甚至还没有拥有过这种基因表达。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's kind of wild.
这有点狂野。
So I think it speaks to smell, and these aren't really pheromone effects, but it speaks to smell as a pretty powerful driver of mate selection.
所以我认为它与气味有关，这些并不是真正的信息素效应，但它表明气味是择偶的一个非常强大的驱动力。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, I think it could be.
是的，我想可能是这样。
It's also interesting, when you're talking about hybrid compatibility or hybrid-
这也很有趣，当你谈论混合兼容性或混合时 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I called it hybrid vigor based on-
我称其为混合活力，基于-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, hybrid vigor
是的，混合动力
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
no particular knowledge of the correct term.
对正确术语没有特别的了解。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
I think that-
我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the term I use because it makes sense to me, yeah.
我使用这个术语是因为它对我来说很有意义，是的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Something like that.
类似的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Something like that.
类似的事情。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
We're having, with globalization, people meeting each other across cultures, across continents for the first time.
随着全球化的发展，人们第一次跨文化、跨大陆地相遇。
So we're getting genetic combinations that have never been possible in the history of humans.
因此，我们正在获得人类历史上从未有过的基因组合。
And that's creating some interesting both resilience and then also disease because you have combinations of genetic variants that have never been in the same individual before, that are now showing up together.
这创造了一些有趣的恢复力和疾病，因为你拥有以前从未在同一个体中出现过的遗传变异组合，现在它们一起出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I find this super interesting for a couple of reasons.
我发现这非常有趣，有几个原因。
First of all, I'll turn 50 in September, and I remember a time not that long ago where it was very unusual, for instance, to see an interracial couple in a television show when I was growing up.
首先，我将在九月份满 50 岁，我记得不久前，在我成长的过程中，在电视节目中看到一对异族情侣是非常不寻常的。
Now that's changed, right?
现在情况改变了，对吧？
And I think that's reflective of a number of things.
我认为这反映了很多事情。
There's cause and effect directionality here that we could get into, but that's a different podcast.
这里有我们可以探讨的因果方向性，但这是一个不同的播客。
But that, yes, people are intermarrying and/or producing children with people whose backgrounds, genetic backgrounds, are very different than their own.
但是，是的，人们正在与背景、遗传背景与自己截然不同的人通婚和/或生育孩子。
And if we take the opposite extreme, it makes perfect sense as to why this hybrid vigor thing would exist, and the opposite extreme is a very uncomfortable thing.
如果我们采取相反的极端，那么为什么这种混合活力的东西会存在就完全有道理了，而相反的极端是一件非常不舒服的事情。
But if you think about incest, incest has been discouraged in populations for a very long time without anyone understanding genetics, like the mechanisms of genetics per se.
但如果你想想乱伦，你就会发现，在很长一段时间里，人们一直不鼓励乱伦，因为没有人了解遗传学，比如遗传学本身的机制。
It's been well understood that in small villages, that people shouldn't mate with their siblings, shouldn't mate with their cousins, and ideally not even with second cousins because of the potential for disease.
人们都知道，在小村庄里，人们不应该与兄弟姐妹交配，不应该与表兄弟姐妹交配，最好甚至不与远房表兄弟姐妹交配，因为有可能感染疾病。
So I've always been fascinated by the idea that nature punishes reproducing with people that are too close to you in a way.
所以我一直对这样一个想法很着迷：大自然在某种程度上惩罚与你太亲近的人的繁殖。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then, of course, there's the moral and ethical and all that aspect, but Mother Nature actually punishes individuals that do this through mutation.
当然，还有道德和伦理以及所有这些方面，但大自然实际上会惩罚通过突变这样做的个体。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
When you have two individuals who are closely related, that dramatically increases the chance that they're both carrying a variant that has a negative impact on the offspring.
当两个人的血缘关系密切时，他们都携带对后代产生负面影响的变异的可能性就会大大增加。
So, when you have people mixing more outside their families, then it's very likely that even if you're carrying this deleterious variation, it's going to be watered down by outside genetic material.
因此，当人们在家庭之外进行更多的混合时，即使你携带这种有害的变异，它也很可能会被外部遗传物质冲淡。
But yeah, as soon as you have people too closely related to each other, those things are ending up together and creating disease.
但是，是的，一旦人们之间的关系过于密切，这些事情最终就会聚集在一起并产生疾病。
Yeah, so it's definitely nature has a system built in that says, "Don't do that."
是的，所以大自然肯定有一个内置的系统说：“不要这样做。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I find it amazing that these things are operating below the level of conscious decision-making to influence preference, like this smell or that smell Right, and we've established, you've told us that the smells that reflect the most distant immune system are the most attractive smells, which is really wild.
是的，我发现令人惊讶的是，这些东西在有意识的决策水平下运作，以影响偏好，比如这种气味或那种气味，对了，我们已经确定，你告诉我们，反映最远免疫系统的气味是最有吸引力的气味，这真的很疯狂。
So is it fair to say that humans are continuing to evolve, given that people are traveling further, meeting people from further away, having children with people from origin populations that presumably have never mixed before in the course of human evolution?
那么，考虑到人们旅行得更远，遇见来自更远地方的人，与来自原住民的人们生下孩子，而这些原住民在人类进化过程中可能从未混合过，那么说人类正在继续进化是否公平呢？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
I think sometimes people kind of think we're done.
我想有时人们会认为我们已经完成了。
We've reached this ultimate point of evolution, we've finished evolving.
我们已经到达了进化的终极点，我们已经完成了进化。
But as long as there are things that are affecting our ability to reproduce, we're going to continue to evolve.
但只要存在影响我们繁殖能力的因素，我们就会继续进化。
And especially once you have this introduction of new genetic variation, some of the greatest adaptations in the history of humans have come from the introduction of new genetic material.
尤其是一旦引入了新的遗传变异，人类历史上一些最伟大的适应就来自于新遗传物质的引入。
So like the Tibetan high altitude adaptation is actually believed to have arisen from the crossing of humans with another early hominid group called Denisovans.
因此，就像西藏的高海拔适应实际上被认为是由人类与另一个称为丹尼索瓦人的早期原始人类群体杂交引起的。
So we essentially stole the advantageous genes from this other group.
所以我们本质上是从其他群体中窃取了有利基因。
And so maybe you'll start to see that happening again, as you have a more globalized population where different groups of humans are creating these interesting phenotypes through the mixing of their genes that maybe will lead us to be more resilient as our planet is changing around us.
因此，也许你会开始看到这种情况再次发生，因为你有一个更加全球化的人口，不同的人类群体通过他们的基因混合创造出这些有趣的表型，这可能会让我们在我们周围的星球发生变化时变得更有弹性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How long ago did this gene that affords better abilities at altitude, or ability to survive at altitude, enter the human population?
这种在高海拔地区提供更好的能力或在高海拔地区生存的能力的基因是在多久之前进入人类群体的？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
I'm going to get myself in trouble because I don't remember exactly how long ago it was.
我会给自己带来麻烦，因为我不记得那是多久以前的事了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More than 10,000 years ago?
一万多年前？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
More than 10,000 years ago, but it only became advantageous when the ancestral population of Tibetans moved into these extremely high altitudes.
一万多年前，但只有当藏人的祖先迁移到这些极高的海拔地区时，它才变得有利。
So it was just sitting there waiting for a chance to be really advantageous, and then as soon as they went to these high altitudes, people carrying that genetic variation were at a huge advantage.
所以它只是坐在那里等待真正有利的机会，然后一旦他们到达这些高海拔地区，携带这种基因变异的人就处于巨大的优势。
And so they passed that along to their children, and their children's children, and so on.
所以他们把这种观念传给了他们的孩子，以及他们孩子的孩子，等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so does that mean that at some point, the species we know as Homo sapiens was able to reproduce with a species that was not Homo sapiens, and that's how the gene entered the Homo sapien population?
好吧，这是否意味着在某个时刻，我们所知的智人物种能够与非智人物种繁殖，而这就是该基因进入智人种群的方式？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
That's exactly right.
完全正确。
So yeah, we see that happening with Neanderthals as well, but also this other population of, they call it archaic hominids, Denisovans.
所以，是的，我们看到这种情况也发生在尼安德特人身上，还有其他人种，他们称之为古代原始人，丹尼索瓦人。
So these were a population that were found in areas of Asia, and their genes were introgressed, we say, so essentially inserted into the human genome.
因此，这些是在亚洲地区发现的种群，我们说，他们的基因已经渗入，因此基本上被插入到人类基因组中。
So individuals from that region tend to have a higher ancestry coming from that hominid group.
因此，来自该地区的个体往往具有来自该原始人类群体的更高血统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that meant that a Homo sapien mated with this other species of primate.
但这意味着智人与其他灵长类动物交配。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the offspring had this gene incorporated into it.
而后代也将这个基因融入其中。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Exactly, yes.
没错，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then that offspring at some point mated with another Homo sapiens, and so on and so forth.
然后这个后代在某个时候与另一个智人交配，依此类推。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Correct, yes.
正确，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Yeah, I'm not trying to paint more color on it so that people, I'm not trying to be salacious here.
是的，我并不是想在上面涂上更多的颜色，以便人们，我不想在这里变得淫荡。
I think that sometimes we forget that in the primate lineage, that there were other primates with whom Homo sapiens were capable of reproducing with.
我认为有时我们会忘记，在灵长类动物谱系中，还有其他灵长类动物能够与智人一起繁殖。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
That's right, yeah.
没错，是的。
And there's actually some extraordinary work from Svante Pääbo, who works a lot with ancient DNA, where they found an individual who was a first-generation mix.
事实上，Svante Pääbo 做了一些非凡的工作，他对古代 DNA 进行了大量研究，他们发现了一个属于第一代混血的个体。
I think it might have been with Neanderthal, I forget now at this point.
我想这可能是尼安德特人的事，我现在忘了。
But, so it was a first-generation, half human, half whatever archaic hominid it was.
但是，所以它是第一代，一半是人类，一半是古老的原始人类。
Which shows you, if they found this, the chances that they would find this one mixed individual are so slim that it suggests that this was something that was actually happening a lot for them to happen to find it.
这表明，如果他们发现了这个，他们找到这个混血个体的机会非常小，这表明这实际上是经常发生的事情，他们碰巧发现了它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in the diagram that everyone has seen of a quadruped animal walking on all fours and then gradually evolving into the upright form that we know as Homo sapiens, which is the primate right before it?
那么在大家看到的图中，四足动物用四足行走，然后逐渐进化为我们所知的智人，也就是它之前的灵长类动物？
Which, by the way, being slightly hunched forward in a slightly C shape position looks a lot more like Homo sapiens nowadays who are on their phones all the time.
顺便说一句，稍微向前弯腰，呈 C 形姿势，看起来更像是现在一直在玩手机的智人。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that's a separate point, that's an editorial point.
但这是一个单独的观点，这是一个编辑观点。
But was there a kind of final primate step before Homo sapiens, like one?
但在智人之前是否存在灵长类动物的最后一步？
Or was it a collection of a bunch of different primate species, and then we got Homo sapiens?
或者它是一群不同灵长类动物的集合，然后我们得到了智人？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, definitely we have an ancestor.
是的，我们肯定有祖先。
I don't remember exactly the name off the top of my head, but I have an issue with this diagram because it's the classic depiction of evolution, right?
我记不太清楚这个名字了，但我对这张图有疑问，因为它是进化论的经典描述，对吧？
But it really suggests, kind of like I was saying before, this trajectory, and we are the pinnacle of it.
但这确实表明，就像我之前所说的那样，这条轨迹，而我们是它的顶峰。
We've achieved this thing.
我们已经实现了这件事。
And I think it also fits with this concept of survival of the fittest, which I think is also a little bit misleading in that it's not about the most fit, it's about the best fit.
我认为这也符合适者生存的概念，我认为这也有点误导，因为它不是最适合的，而是最适合的。
So evolution doesn't care how fit you are in the way we think of fitness.
因此，进化并不关心我们对健康的看法有多健康。
It only cares how you fit with your environment.
它只关心你如何适应你的环境。
So the idea that evolution is driving any species, but especially ours, towards some optimum, I think is inherently flawed.
因此，我认为进化正在推动任何物种（尤其是我们的物种）走向某种最佳状态的想法本质上是有缺陷的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I had a colleague at Harvard, he's still there, although I think he closed his lab, who once said, "It takes a lot of generations of offspring to evolve a given trait, but it takes very few to devolve a trait."
我在哈佛大学有一位同事，他仍然在那里，尽管我认为他关闭了他的实验室，他曾经说过：“需要很多代的后代才能进化出一种特定的特征，但只需要很少的几代人就能传递一种特征。”
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can create immense problems in all sorts of things, from pancreas function to mobility to vision, with a deleterious mutation.
有害的突变可能会在各种方面造成巨大的问题，从胰腺功能到活动能力再到视力。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it takes a very long time to create an advantage for a given species through the accumulation of new combinations of genes.
但通过积累新的基因组合，为特定物种创造优势需要很长时间。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Most mutations are deleterious.
大多数突变都是有害的。
Most mutations cause problems.
大多数突变都会引起问题。
And so we actually don't even see most mutations because they kill essentially the offspring before it even becomes a fetus.
所以我们实际上甚至没有看到大多数突变，因为它们基本上在后代成为胎儿之前就杀死了它。
So most mutations are happening in a way that we're not even seeing them.
所以大多数突变都是以我们看不到的方式发生的。
So to wait for something that comes up that's actually beneficial can take forever because you have to have exactly the right thing.
因此，等待真正有益的东西出现可能会花费很长时间，因为你必须拥有完全正确的东西。
The genome's huge, so when those changes are happening, for it to not only happen in the right place but to not cause problems takes a really long time.
基因组很大，所以当这些变化发生时，它不仅要发生在正确的位置而且不会引起问题需要很长时间。
So some of the faster examples that we know of evolution, especially in humans, come from when there's variation that's just already there, and it's not particularly advantageous, like I mentioned with Tibetans, until you move into a particular environment, or until you start practicing a certain activity like breath-hold diving.
因此，我们所知道的一些更快的进化例子，特别是在人类中，来自于已经存在的变异，并且它并不是特别有利，就像我在西藏人中提到的那样，直到你进入一个特定的环境，或者直到你开始练习某种活动，比如屏气潜水。
And so, we have what we call standing variation, just there's all these differences between all of us humans on Earth.
因此，我们有所谓的“站立变异”，地球上所有人类之间都存在所有这些差异。
And so when you have variation that's beneficial in the right environment, then evolution can happen a lot faster.
因此，当在正确的环境中产生有益的变异时，进化就会发生得更快。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Okay, so I'm obsessed with the X-Men.
好吧，所以我对X战警很着迷。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that series.
我喜欢那个系列。
I've probably watched it five different times.
我可能已经看了五次了。
For a biologist who's interested in all animals, but the human animal perhaps most, it's like the perfect form of entertainment for me.
对于一位对所有动物感兴趣但对人类动物可能最感兴趣的生物学家来说，这对我来说就像是完美的娱乐形式。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Different individuals who have mutations that afford them specific gifts or abilities-
不同的个体具有赋予他们特定天赋或能力的突变——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it creates, let's just say, some social tension between those that have and those that don't, and it's about learning to use these mutations for good versus evil, and it gets into all sorts of interesting human psychology.
但它会在那些拥有突变的人和那些没有突变的人之间造成一些社会紧张，这是关于学习如何利用这些突变来区分善与恶，并且它涉及各种有趣的人类心理。
You work on the actual real-life version of what I think of X-Men and, as you'll tell us today, women as well, which is, as you just told us, there's variation in all of our genomes, and occasionally, by virtue of the needs of a particular group or individual, those mutations afford them an incredible ability to do incredible things.
你正在研究我所认为的X战警的真实版本，正如你今天告诉我们的那样，女性也是如此，也就是说，正如你刚才告诉我们的那样，我们所有的基因组都存在变异，有时，由于特定群体或个人的需要，这些突变赋予她们令人难以置信的能力，做不可思议的事情。
So if you would, could you tell us about these underwater free divers that you've studied?
如果愿意的话，您能告诉我们您研究过的这些水下自由潜水员吗？
This is a collection of studies, I realize, but maybe the first study, because I find this to be one of the more incredible examples of behavior shaping what we think of our fixed properties of the human body.
我意识到，这是一系列研究的集合，但也许是第一项研究，因为我发现这是塑造我们对人体固定属性的看法的最令人难以置信的行为例子之一。
And please, just tell us about it.
请告诉我们这件事。
Such a wonderful story.
这是一个多么美妙的故事啊。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
And I also love the X-Men, although if you ever want to ruin a perfectly good sci-fi movie, watch it with an evolutionary biologist.
我也喜欢《X战警》，不过如果你想毁掉一部完美的科幻电影，那就和进化生物学家一起看吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Noted.
注意到了。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So there are these incredible people, well, really all around the world, but I started my work in Indonesia, called the Bajau.
世界各地都有这些令人难以置信的人，但我的工作是从印度尼西亚的巴瑶族开始的。
They are a group of what's called sea nomads.
他们是一群所谓的海洋游牧民族。
So sea nomads are these people who spend their whole lives essentially at sea, traditionally.
传统上，海洋游牧民族是指一生都在海上度过的人。
They live on houseboats, and everything they need, they get from the sea.
他们住在船屋里，他们需要的一切都从海上获得。
And they do this through fishing, of course, and other things like that, but also through an incredible amount of breath-hold diving.
当然，他们通过钓鱼和其他类似的事情来做到这一点，但也通过大量的屏气潜水来做到这一点。
So they're extremely good at this.
所以他们非常擅长这一点。
They can hold their breath for many minutes at a time.
他们一次可以屏住呼吸很多分钟。
They dive to incredible depths.
他们潜入令人难以置信的深度。
A lot of them wear these jewelry made of black coral.
他们中的很多人都佩戴这些由黑珊瑚制成的珠宝。
Black coral only starts growing at about 100 feet deep, so that tells you how deep they're diving.
黑珊瑚只在大约 100 英尺深的地方开始生长，因此可以告诉您它们潜入的深度有多深。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So those are trophies.
所以这些都是奖杯。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
They're actually meant to protect them from evil spirits and things like that.
它们实际上是为了保护他们免受邪灵之类的侵害。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How long are their breath holds on record?
他们的屏气记录有多久？
I've heard you talk about this before.
我以前听你谈过这个。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a little debatable, but-
这有点值得商榷，但是——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the number I heard from you in a lecture, I went, "Whoa."
我在一次演讲中听到你的数字，我说，“哇。”
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I was told, and I always emphasize that, I was told, I did not see this, I did not record it.
所以我被告知，我总是强调，我被告知，我没有看到这个，我没有记录它。
I was told 13 minutes.
有人告诉我13分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
And this was by the father of a diver who I worked with in Indonesia.
这是我在印度尼西亚共事的一位潜水员的父亲写的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's got to be in the neighborhood of world record stuff.
这一定是在世界纪录附近。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It is, yeah.
是的，是的。
I'm trying to remember what the current world record is, but it's also, you have to think about if you see them diving, it's incredibly active.
我试图记住当前的世界纪录是什么，但同时，你也必须想一想，如果你看到他们跳水，那会非常活跃。
So a lot of the breath-hold records that we think of are people floating in a pool.
所以我们想到的很多屏气记录都是人们漂浮在水池里。
They're not moving, they're not expending any energy, they're not using up that oxygen as quickly.
他们没有移动，没有消耗任何能量，也没有那么快地耗尽氧气。
And these sea nomads are, when they're underwater, they look like hunters on land.
这些海洋游牧民族，当他们在水下时，他们看起来就像陆地上的猎人。
They go deep enough that they're not floating anymore, and so they're walking on the bottom of the ocean with their spear guns, and they look like hunters.
他们潜得足够深，不再漂浮，所以他们拿着鱼枪在海底行走，看起来就像猎人。
It's incredible to see.
看到这真是难以置信。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
So even if it's not 13 minutes, let's say it's half that, it's still super impressive.
因此，即使不是 13 分钟，假设是一半，它仍然非常令人印象深刻。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It's very impressive, yeah.
这非常令人印象深刻，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So do they grow up doing this?
那么他们长大后就是这样做的吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
They do, yeah.
他们确实这样做，是的。
And in fact, they spend so much time traditionally on these houseboats and so little time on land, that a lot of the children actually learn to swim before they learn how to walk.
事实上，他们传统上在船屋上度过的时间太多，而在陆地上的时间却很少，以至于很多孩子在学会走路之前实际上先学会了游泳。
So one of the divers, when I was out there, one of my colleagues noticed that one of the diver's feet was very soft, and we realized that it's because he's never really walking.
所以其中一名潜水员，当我在那里时，我的一位同事注意到潜水员的一只脚非常柔软，我们意识到这是因为他从来没有真正走路过。
He's just always in the water, so his feet don't develop the same kind of calluses that ours do-
他只是总是在水里，所以他的脚不会像我们的那样长出老茧——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing
太棒了
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
...
...
because he's not using them like we do.
因为他不像我们那样使用它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
So how did you find this population, and what sorts of questions did you start to ask?
那么你是如何找到这个群体的？你开始提出什么样的问题？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I was actually diving as part of a coral genomics project in Thailand, escaping Danish winter, because that's where I was doing my PhD, and I heard about a population called the Moken, so that's another group of these sea nomads, and heard about their incredible underwater diving.
所以我实际上是在泰国潜水，作为珊瑚基因组学项目的一部分，逃离丹麦的冬天，因为那是我攻读博士学位的地方，我听说了一个叫做莫肯人的种群，所以这是另一个海洋游牧民族，并听说了他们令人难以置信的水下潜水。
Started looking into it and saw a study that I think you've seen that showed that Moken children could actually see underwater better than European children, and started thinking about, free diving's really dangerous, and so I was thinking that this could actually be something that's driving selection in this population, that's causing this population to evolve.
开始研究这个问题，我想你已经看到了一项研究，该研究表明莫肯儿童实际上比欧洲儿童能更好地看到水下的情况，并开始思考，自由潜水确实很危险，所以我认为这实际上可能是推动该人群选择的因素，导致该人群进化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In other words, just to put this in everyday terms for people, if you don't get good at this, you die.
换句话说，用人们的日常用语来说，如果你不擅长这一点，你就会死。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you die young enough, you don't reproduce.
如果你死得够早，你就无法繁殖。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you get good enough at this, you can live long enough to reproduce, and your children will presumably inherit whatever mutation Or genetic variants afford this ability.
如果你在这方面做得足够好，你就可以活得足够长，可以繁殖，而且你的孩子可能会遗传任何突变或基因变异提供这种能力。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Exactly, yeah.
没错，是的。
And we see with competitive breath hold divers, I've never actually been to one of these competitions, but I've read about them, people pass out underwater all the time.
我们看到，对于竞技性屏气潜水员来说，我实际上从未参加过其中一项比赛，但我读过有关这些比赛的报道，人们总是在水下昏倒。
And they're pulled to the surface and revived.
他们被拉到表面并复活。
But if you're a sea nomad diving in the middle of the ocean with no one nearby, nobody's going to pull you out of that water, and so you've just removed yourself from the gene pool completely, whereas someone who maybe has a variation or has genetic variation that's making them safer at diving, might survive that.
但如果你是一名海洋游牧者，在大洋中央潜水，附近没有人，没有人会把你从水中拉出来，所以你就完全将自己从基因库中删除了，而那些可能有变异或具有使他们在潜水时更安全的基因变异的人可能会幸存下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in this case, the safety at diving comes from being able to stay under longer.
在这种情况下，潜水的安全性来自于能够在水下停留更长时间。
We can talk about that, but as long as we're on this point, and because some people will be tempted to go test their breath-holding time, which please don't do it.
我们可以讨论这一点，但只要我们在这一点上，并且因为有些人会忍不住去测试他们的屏气时间，所以请不要这样做。
I'm just going to do it across the board.
我只是要全面地做这件事。
Just don't do it.
只是不要这样做。
Learn from an expert.
向专家学习。
If you're going to learn to free dive, learn from somebody who's truly expert under the right conditions.
如果您要学习自由潜水，请在适当的条件下向真正的专家学习。
I'll put a link to a couple folks I know that I have no business relation to, Mark Healy and some other people that teach this on land first.
我将提供一个链接，指向几个我知道与我没有业务关系的人，马克·希利（Mark Healy）和其他一些首先在陆地上教授这一点的人。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Actually, you know what?
事实上，你知道吗？
I'll just tell you.
我就告诉你吧。
You know what they told me was the first step-
你知道他们告诉我的是第一步-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
What?
什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in one of these free diving classes, I chose not to do it, is do not do this.
在其中一门自由潜水课程中，我选择不做，就是不做这个。
But I was told, "Here's the first step.
但我被告知：“这是第一步。
You're going to hold your breath on land and force yourself to not breathe when the gasp reflex hits-
当喘息反射出现时，你将在陆地上屏住呼吸并强迫自己不要呼吸-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
until you pass out."
直到你昏过去。”
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I was like, "You know what?
我当时想，“你知道吗？
I'm not going to take this course."
我不会选这门课。”
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So this is exactly what gets people in trouble because yeah, we don't have a reliable sensor for when our oxygen is low, and so that happens to people underwater because that feeling, that wanting to breathe, is a buildup of carbon dioxide.
所以这正是给人们带来麻烦的原因，因为是的，我们没有可靠的传感器来检测氧气含量低的情况，所以这种情况发生在水下的人身上，因为那种想要呼吸的感觉是二氧化碳的积累。
And so yeah, people teach themselves to overcome it like they're suggesting you do there, and then you're underwater, and you pass out, and that's it.
所以，是的，人们教自己克服它，就像他们建议你在那里做的那样，然后你在水下，你昏倒了，就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been told that you go from feeling that gasp reflex, you learn to ride that like a bump.
有人告诉我，你从感觉到喘息反射开始，你就学会了像颠簸一样驾驭它。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The same way you might stay in a cold plunge or something a little bit longer than your impulse would have you stay in.
就像你可能会呆在寒冷的地方或者比你的冲动让你停留的时间稍长一些的地方。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in this case, you're underwater, and then it passes, and then you're swimming freely about, and you feel good, you're relaxed, you're doing slow exhales to let off that carbon dioxide, whatever carbon dioxide is left, and then it just lights out.
但在这种情况下，你在水下，然后它就过去了，然后你可以自由地游泳，你感觉很好，你很放松，你慢慢地呼气以排出二氧化碳，无论剩下多少二氧化碳，然后它就熄灭了。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That there's no flickering, it just goes to complete blackout.
没有闪烁，只是完全黑屏。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like curtains, as they call it.
正如他们所说，就像窗帘一样。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you're dead.
然后你就死了。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless somebody pulls you up to the surface.
除非有人把你拉到水面。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Exactly, yeah.
没错，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So hopefully we sufficiently scared-
所以希望我们足够害怕——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people into doing this.
人们开始这样做。
Okay, so this population presumably is not thinking about carbon dioxide thresholds for the gasp reflex, areas of the brain stem that are measuring carbon dioxide.
好吧，所以这个人群可能没有考虑喘息反射的二氧化碳阈值，即测量二氧化碳的脑干区域。
They presumably learn through experience that if you do the right things, you live and reproduce, your family eats.
他们大概通过经验了解到，如果你做正确的事情，你就能生存和繁衍，你的家人就能吃饭。
You do the wrong things, you die.
你做错事，你就会死。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right, yeah.
对，是的。
There's so much cultural knowledge that's integrated into the practice, and that's passed on from generation to generation because a lot of times they're doing this in family units.
有如此多的文化知识融入到实践中，并且代代相传，因为很多时候他们是在家庭单位中这样做的。
One of the divers that I worked with, his dad used to be the most famous diver in the village.
和我一起工作的潜水员之一，他的父亲曾经是村里最著名的潜水员。
Now he's the most famous diver in the village.
现在他是村里最有名的潜水员。
And so there's a lot of that tradition and that traditional knowledge that's passed on, despite it maybe not looking like what we would read in a textbook.
因此，有很多传统和传统知识被传承下来，尽管它们可能看起来不像我们在教科书中读到的那样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you say one of the most revered or expert divers, I'm very curious as to how this weaves back to an earlier part of our conversation.
当你说最受尊敬或最专业的潜水员之一时，我很好奇这如何回到我们谈话的早期部分。
Is prowess at diving based on how long someone can stay under, and is prowess at diving because it correlates with the ability to secure resources?
潜水能力是否取决于一个人可以在水下停留的时间，以及潜水能力是否因为它与获取资源的能力相关？
Is that somehow correlated with desirable mate?
这与理想的伴侣有某种关联吗？
Do these people tend to have more offspring than people that are not as good at diving?
这些人是否比不擅长潜水的人拥有更多的后代？
And of course, there are confounds here, like you can imagine differences in hormone levels to begin with, eating more during puberty and growing stronger or whatever it is, or smarter and not just smarter.
当然，这里也存在一些令人困惑的地方，比如你可以想象激素水平的差异，青春期吃得更多，变得更强壮等等，或者更聪明，而不仅仅是更聪明。
But do you see this?
但你看到这个了吗？
Are the people who are great divers in the village, do they tend to be the ones with more children, to be direct?
村里那些善于潜水的人，他们往往是孩子较多的人吗，是不是比较直接？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It would be interesting to count that.
算一下这个会很有趣。
I think now things are changing for the Bajau, at least the community that I worked with, where a lot of people are moving away from traditional diving and into other kinds of fishing practices.
我认为现在巴瑶族的情况正在发生变化，至少是我工作过的社区，那里的很多人正在从传统的潜水转向其他类型的捕鱼活动。
And so I think at this point, this prowess, this respect for these divers, is more respect for the fact that they're keeping the tradition alive, and they're continuing this tradition, even though it's a very hard thing to do.
所以我认为在这一点上，这种能力，这种对这些潜水员的尊重，更多的是对他们保持传统活力这一事实的尊重，他们正在延续这一传统，尽管这是一件非常困难的事情。
But yeah, it would be really interesting.
但是，是的，这真的很有趣。
I know actually the one diver came from a very big family, and that was something that the Bajau actually asked me about was why do the Bajau have so many children?
我知道实际上那位潜水员来自一个非常大的家庭，而巴瑶人实际上问我的问题是为什么巴瑶人有这么多孩子？
And so it would be interesting to see if, yeah, diving success correlates with reproductive success.
因此，看看跳水的成功是否与繁殖的成功相关，将会很有趣。
Because you could imagine that it would.
因为你可以想象它会发生。
They're diving for things that they're eating, so why wouldn't that increase your success on that?
他们会努力寻找自己正在吃的东西，那么为什么这不会增加你在这方面的成功呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just out of curiosity, and because I like seafood, what are they fishing for?
只是出于好奇，而且因为我喜欢海鲜，他们钓什么？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It depends on where they are.
这取决于他们在哪里。
They're spearing a lot of fish.
他们用鱼叉叉了很多鱼。
Everything is delicious.
一切都很美味。
They dive for shellfish.
他们潜水寻找贝类。
They also harvest seaweed sometimes.
他们有时也会收获海藻。
And they actually collect a lot of sea cucumbers, which they dry out in the sun and then eat later.
他们实际上收集了很多海参，然后在阳光下晒干然后吃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like pure protein.
就像纯蛋白质一样。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
So what did you study in this group?
那你在这个组学了什么？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So we started thinking about, okay, for natural selection to act in this population, it needs some kind of physical trait to act on, which got us looking at the dive reflex or the mammalian dive reflex.
所以我们开始思考，好吧，为了让自然选择在这个群体中发挥作用，它需要某种身体特征来发挥作用，这让我们开始研究潜水反射或哺乳动物潜水反射。
So this is if anyone, and again, I hesitate to tell people to do this, but if you hold your breath and put your face in a bowl full of cold water, your body responds as if you're diving.
所以这就是如果有人的话，再一次，我犹豫是否要告诉人们这样做，但是如果你屏住呼吸并将脸放入装满冷水的碗中，你的身体会做出反应，就像你在潜水一样。
And what that means is that your heart rate slows down, your blood vessels in your extremities constrict, because your fingers will be okay with a little bit less oxygen, but your brain really needs that oxygen, so it's keeping the blood central where you need it the most.
这意味着你的心率会减慢，四肢的血管会收缩，因为你的手指在氧气少一点的情况下会没事，但你的大脑确实需要氧气，所以它将血液保持在你最需要的中心位置。
And then your spleen contracts.
然后你的脾脏就会收缩。
And so the spleen certainly wasn't the first organ that I thought about when thinking about diving, but the spleen is a reservoir.
因此，当我想到潜水时，脾脏肯定不是我首先想到的器官，但脾脏是一个水库。
The spleen does many things, but one of the things that it does is it's a reservoir for red blood cells that are carrying oxygen.
脾脏有很多作用，但它的作用之一是它是携带氧气的红细胞的储存库。
And so through that contraction, those oxygen-rich red blood cells are now pushed into circulation, and you get an oxygen boost.
因此，通过这种收缩，那些富含氧气的红细胞现在被推入循环，你会得到氧气的增加。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How significant is that oxygen boost?
氧气增加有多重要？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It's about 10% in most of us.
我们大多数人的比例约为 10%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's pretty impressive.
这真是令人印象深刻。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Yeah.
是的。
It's enough to make a difference.
这足以有所作为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
By comparison, there are a lot of discussions online about if you finish your exercise, resistance training, or cardiovascular exercise with a brief sauna session-
相比之下，网上有很多关于是否通过简短的桑拿课程来完成锻炼、阻力训练或心血管锻炼的讨论——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so going slightly hyperthermic.
所以会稍微发热。
You have to hydrate, et cetera, but it actually works even better, as long as we're talking about dangerous practices.
你必须补充水分，等等，但只要我们谈论危险的做法，它实际上效果更好。
It works even better if you're slightly dehydrated.
如果您轻微脱水，效果会更好。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You get an overproduction of red blood cells in the subsequent days, and this is used for a performance-enhancing effect in elite athletes, mainly.
在接下来的几天里，你会产生过量的红细胞，这主要用于提高精英运动员的表现。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have to, again, avoid dehydration, death, et cetera.
你必须再次避免脱水、死亡等。
But this is done, and someone will correct me, but the shift in available oxygen is in the low percentages, like 1 or 2%.
但这已经完成了，有人会纠正我，但可用氧气的变化百分比很低，比如 1% 或 2%。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, this is what people are fighting for using these baroque protocols.
所以，这就是人们为使用这些巴洛克协议而奋斗的目标。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're talking about a 10% increase in available oxygen through a contraction of the spleen.
您所说的是通过脾脏收缩使可用氧气增加 10%。
I didn't even know the spleen could contract.
我什至不知道脾脏会收缩。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just when you put your face into colder than ambient temperature water?
就在您将脸放入比环境温度更冷的水中时？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Usually, in lab protocols, we do it about 10 degrees Celsius or 50 degrees Fahrenheit, so quite a bit colder.
通常，在实验室协议中，我们的温度约为 10 摄氏度或 50 华氏度，所以要冷一些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For how long?
持续多久？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Well, depends on how long you can hold your breath.
嗯，取决于你能屏住呼吸多久。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, right.
哦，对了。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, but the extent to which, how long the contraction actually takes, I think we have room to learn more about that.
是的，但是收缩的程度、实际需要多长时间，我认为我们还有空间来了解更多。
But one thing that's slightly different from what you're talking about is that after you stop holding your breath, your spleen takes that oxygen back, essentially.
但与你所说的略有不同的一件事是，在你停止屏住呼吸后，你的脾脏本质上会收回氧气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
So, it refills with red blood cells, and that extra boost is no longer in circulation.
因此，它会重新充满红细胞，而多余的红细胞将不再循环。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah, so it's only during the breath hold.
啊，所以只是在屏气期间。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
That's right.
没错。
Only when you need it the most.
仅当您最需要时才使用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
What an incredible adaptation of the human body.
人体的适应能力真是令人难以置信。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are some other functions of the spleen?
脾脏还有哪些其他功能？
This is the first time the spleen has ever been discussed on this podcast, I think.
我认为这是第一次在这个播客上讨论脾脏。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We don't think about spleens too often.
我们不太经常想到脾脏。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Well, you can live without one, so it seems like how important could it be?
好吧，没有一个你也可以生活，所以看起来它有多重要呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well-
嗯-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
For diving, yes
对于潜水来说，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for this population, it sounds like it might be critical.
对于这一人群来说，这听起来可能至关重要。
You'll tell us.
你会告诉我们。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
What are some other things that it does?
它还有哪些其他作用？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It's involved in the immune response to certain bacteria.
它参与对某些细菌的免疫反应。
And actually, now I'm trying to think of what else it does.
事实上，现在我正在尝试思考它还有什么作用。
But that's-
但那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That seems-
看来——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
The main role is immunological.
主要作用是免疫作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
One thing, in anticipation of this episode, I did a little reading about it, and it gets very heavy neural innervation-
有一件事，为了这一集的预期，我做了一些阅读，它得到了非常沉重的神经支配——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is interesting.
这很有趣。
We don't normally think about our peripheral organs, besides our heart, as getting a lot of neural innervation.
除了心脏之外，我们通常不会认为我们的外周器官受到大量神经支配。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of course, the gut has neural innervation, et cetera.
当然，肠道有神经支配等等。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the spleen gets very heavy neural innervation-
但脾脏受到非常重的神经支配——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Interesting
有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which makes me think that maybe there's the opportunity for more, perhaps, even conscious control of the spleen.
这让我觉得也许有机会更多地、甚至有意识地控制脾脏。
Does this population communicate about any sense that they can switch this thing on, or is this just all kind of unconscious genius related to their behavior?
这些人是否传达了他们可以打开这个东西的任何感觉，或者这只是与他们的行为相关的所有无意识天才？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
As far as I know, it's all unconscious.
据我所知，这一切都是无意识的。
It's not something that they talk about, and most of them, when I was explaining what the spleen was, it wasn't something that they had ever thought about or experienced any kind of sensation in the area where the spleen is found.
这不是他们谈论的事情，而且他们中的大多数人，当我解释脾脏是什么时，他们从来没有想过或经历过脾脏所在区域的任何感觉。
Yeah, but who knows?
是的，但谁知道呢？
It's encapsulated in smooth muscle, I think, the spleen, and that's what controls that contraction.
我认为它被包裹在平滑肌中，即脾脏中，这就是控制收缩的原因。
So yeah, maybe there could be some way to consciously contract your spleen.
所以，是的，也许有某种方法可以有意识地收缩你的脾脏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Also, our spleens contract when we exercise, to a lesser extent, and this is why horses, and apparently greyhounds, someone wrote to me after the study came out, have massive spleens.
此外，当我们运动时，我们的脾脏会收缩，但程度较轻，这就是为什么马，显然还有灰狗，研究结果出来后有人写信给我，有巨大的脾脏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
As do seals, who do a lot of deep diving, but that makes a little more sense.
海豹也是如此，它们经常进行深潜，但这更有意义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
I don't think about horses being underwater very often.
我不认为马经常在水下。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or greyhounds, for that matter.
或者灰狗，就此而言。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wonder if they incorporate breath holds as a way to deploy red blood cells.
我想知道他们是否将屏气作为部署红细胞的一种方式。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, it could be that.
是的，可能是这样。
Yeah.
是的。
It's something in the breath-holding aspect of extreme bouts of exercise-
这是极限运动中屏气的表现——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
...
...
is also contributing to that contraction.
也导致了这种收缩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When one becomes a bit hypoxic because you just can't keep up with whatever exertion-
当一个人因为无法跟上任何努力而变得有点缺氧时——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you just can't breathe in enough oxygen, dump enough carbon dioxide to keep up with your physical activity.
你只是无法吸入足够的氧气，排出足够的二氧化碳来跟上你的身体活动。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that one of the conditions under which it sort of mimics a breath hold, or do you need this cold...
这是模仿屏气的情况之一，还是你需要这种寒冷......
There seems to be something about the face being cold.
脸上似乎有些冰冷。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's stimulation of the vagal nerve that is, in part, triggering this response, which runs through your face.
迷走神经的刺激在一定程度上引发了这种贯穿你脸部的反应。
And so that's why the facial immersion is crucial to triggering the response.
这就是为什么面部浸入对于触发反应至关重要。
But there is, I think, a component of if you're just holding your breath, where that also kind of triggers it.
但我认为，如果你屏住呼吸，也会触发它。
But yeah, it's really amazing to think that as mammals, this evolved sometime so long ago that it's even in mice.
但是，是的，一想到作为哺乳动物，这种现象在很久以前就进化出来了，甚至在老鼠身上也出现了，真是太神奇了。
They've done a study where they actually trained mice to dive, and they could measure the mammalian dive reflex in mice.
他们做了一项研究，实际上训练小鼠潜水，并且可以测量小鼠的哺乳动物潜水反射。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Yeah, so you sort of answered my next question, which was why do we have a dive reflex?
是的，所以你回答了我的下一个问题，那就是为什么我们有潜水反射？
We're not a harp seal.
我们不是竖琴海豹。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we're not a diving bird.
而且我们不是潜水鸟。
Why do we have this?
为什么我们有这个？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I don't think we really know.
我认为我们真的不知道。
Some people talk about something called the aquatic ape hypothesis.
有些人谈论一种叫做水生猿假说的东西。
That says that one of our ancestors-
那是说我们的祖先之一——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry.
抱歉。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Is that-
难道是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm trying not to interrupt.
我尽量不去打扰。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard of the stoned ape hypothesis.
我听说过石猿假说。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All the psychonauts love the stoned ape hypothesis-
所有的心理科学家都喜欢石头猿假说——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is that psychedelics are what led to new ideas and daytime dreams that led to our evolution, and anyway-
也就是说，迷幻药带来了新的想法和白日梦，从而导致了我们的进化，无论如何——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
That's a new one for me.
这对我来说是一个新事物。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Forgive me for interrupting.
请原谅我打扰。
It was an interruption of the stoned ape.
这是石猿的打断。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the-
所以——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Well, maybe the aquatic ape was right there-
嗯，也许水猿就在那里——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The aquatic ape
水生猿
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
...
...
alongside the stoned ape.
在石猿旁边。
But I think that, given the fact that it's present throughout all mammals, I think it's much more likely that it was some very long ago ancestral proto-mammal that was doing some kind of diving, and because of that, this response is present to varying degrees in all modern mammals.
但我认为，考虑到它存在于所有哺乳动物中，我认为更有可能的是一些很久以前的祖先原始哺乳动物正在进行某种潜水，正因为如此，这种反应在所有现代哺乳动物中都不同程度地存在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily for more than 13 years.
正如你们许多人所知，我每天服用 AG1 已经超过 13 年了。
However, I've now found an even better vitamin mineral probiotic drink.
然而，我现在找到了一种更好的维生素矿物质益生菌饮料。
That new and better drink is the new and improved AG1, which just launched this month.
这种新的、更好的饮料是新的和改进的 AG1，它于本月刚刚推出。
This next-gen formula from AG1 is a more advanced, clinically backed version of the product that I've been taking daily for years.
AG1 的新一代配方是我多年来每天服用的产品的更先进、经过临床支持的版本。
It includes new bioavailable nutrients and enhanced probiotics.
它包括新的生物可利用的营养素和增强的益生菌。
The next-gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several specific clinically studied probiotic strains that have been shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating.
下一代配方基于关于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的令人兴奋的新研究，它现在包括几种经过临床研究的特定益生菌菌株，这些菌株已被证明可以支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，以及改善肠道规律性和减少腹胀。
As someone who's been involved in research science for more than three decades, and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance.
作为一个从事科学研究超过三十年、在健康和健身领域也同样长期从事的人，我一直在寻找最好的工具来改善我的心理健康、身体健康和表现。
I discovered and started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
早在 2012 年，我就发现并开始服用 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都服用它。
I find that it greatly improves all aspects of my health.
我发现它极大地改善了我健康的各个方面。
I just feel so much better when I take it.
当我服用它时，我感觉好多了。
With each passing year, and by the way, I'm turning 50 this September, I continue to feel better and better, and I attribute a lot of that to AG1.
年复一年，顺便说一句，今年九月我就满 50 岁了，我的感觉越来越好，我将这很大程度上归功于 AG1。
AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost.
AG1 使用最优质的成分进行正确的组合，并且在不增加成本的情况下不断改进其配方。
So I'm honored to have them as a sponsor of this podcast.
所以我很荣幸他们成为这个播客的赞助商。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
Right now, AG1 is giving away an AG1 welcome kit with five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2.
现在，AG1 正在赠送 AG1 欢迎套件，其中包含五个免费旅行包和一瓶免费维生素 D3 K2。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the special welcome kit with five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2.
请再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别欢迎套装，其中包含 5 个免费旅行包和一瓶免费维生素 D3 K2。
Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.
今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的含量正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I'll also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
I love the raspberry.
我喜欢覆盆子。
I love the citrus flavor.
我喜欢柑橘味。
Right now, LMNT has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious.
现在LMNT推出了限量版柠檬水口味，绝对美味。
I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my favorite other one, which is raspberry or watermelon.
我不想说我比其他所有口味都更喜欢其中一种，但这种柠檬水口味与我最喜欢的另一种口味（覆盆子或西瓜）不相上下。
Again, I can't pick just one flavor.
再说一次，我不能只选择一种口味。
I love them all.
我爱他们所有人。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drinkLMNT.com/huberman, to claim a free LMNT sample pack with a purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman（拼写为 DrinkLMNT.com/huberman），购买任意 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
I'm jumping around here, but I feel like these are the questions that are hopefully springing to people's minds here and there.
我在这里跳来跳去，但我觉得这些问题有望在各地人们的脑海中浮现。
I've seen these videos of babies being born into a swimming pool, and that you get on their belly, it looks like the Nirvana cover, and they seem perfectly happy to be underwater shortly after birth, which makes intuitive sense.
我看过这些婴儿在游泳池里出生的视频，你趴在他们的肚子上，看起来就像涅槃封面，他们似乎非常高兴在出生后不久就在水下，这很直观。
They were in the womb.
他们在子宫里。
They were floating in the amniotic sac, and they're underwater, so to speak.
它们漂浮在羊膜囊中，可以说它们在水下。
Do we come into this world knowing how to dive and be underwater because of our experience during pregnancy?
我们来到这个世界时是否因为怀孕期间的经历而知道如何潜水和在水下？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It seems like it.
好像是这样。
I've seen if you take babies, and I'm not recommending anyone do this, but like blow in their face, and they instinctively hold their breath and can be put underwater.
我见过如果你带婴儿，我不建议任何人这样做，但就像对着他们的脸吹气，他们本能地屏住呼吸，可以被放入水下。
And, actually, Bajau people told me, and I don't know if this is something they actually do, but that the test of a Bajau is as a baby, they pass the baby under the canoe, and if the baby comes out the other side, then it's a Bajau because it has held its breath like it will for the rest of its life.
事实上，巴瑶人告诉我，我不知道这是否是他们真正做的事情，但是对巴瑶人的考验是作为婴儿，他们把婴儿放在独木舟下，如果婴儿从另一边出来，那么它就是巴瑶人，因为它在余生中都屏住了呼吸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the alternative?
还有什么选择呢？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's why I said I don't know if they actually do this, but it was just something that they told me.
这就是为什么我说我不知道他们是否真的这么做了，但这只是他们告诉我的。
But yeah, I think there is some innate response where we know even as babies to hold our breath.
但是，是的，我认为有一些与生俱来的反应，我们甚至在婴儿时期就知道要屏住呼吸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's fascinating.
这很有趣。
So what did you discover in this group of incredible divers?
那么您在这群令人难以置信的潜水员中发现了什么？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
So we discovered that they have larger spleens.
所以我们发现他们有更大的脾脏。
So, I mentioned the spleen's role in diving.
所以，我提到了脾在潜水中的作用。
It's increasing your...
它正在增加你的...
Sometimes people call it a biological scuba tank.
有时人们称其为生物潜水罐。
It's increasing the amount of oxygen available to you.
它增加了您可用的氧气量。
So our hypothesis was that they would have larger spleens because a larger spleen presumably means longer diving, safer diving.
所以我们的假设是，它们会有更大的脾脏，因为更大的脾脏可能意味着潜水时间更长、潜水更安全。
And so we compared them to a nearby population living in a very similar environment, but with a history of farming.
因此，我们将他们与生活在非常相似的环境中但具有农业历史的附近人口进行了比较。
So these are people who live right next to the ocean but aren't really interacting with it.
这些人住在海边，但并没有真正与海洋互动。
So, Bajau children are in the water from the moment they're born almost.
所以，巴瑶族的孩子几乎从出生那一刻起就在水里。
And then children in this other village didn't know how to swim.
然后另一个村庄的孩子们不会游泳。
And so we found that compared to that village, the Bajau had significantly larger spleens.
所以我们发现，与那个村庄相比，巴瑶人的脾脏明显更大。
So their spleens were about 50% larger on average.
所以他们的脾脏平均大约大 50%。
And this was true for divers and non-divers.
对于潜水员和非潜水员来说都是如此。
So that showed us that it was very likely to be something genetic rather than the fact that your diving increases the size of your spleen.
因此，这向我们表明，这很可能是遗传因素，而不是潜水导致脾脏变大的事实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But does diving increase the size of the spleen?
但是潜水会增加脾脏的大小吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
This is a question that I think is still open because in both of the populations where I've measured this, divers and non-divers have the same size spleen.
我认为这个问题仍然悬而未决，因为在我测量的两个人群中，潜水员和非潜水员的脾脏大小相同。
However, other people have shown that if you train people, if you recruit people to a study and train them in breath-hold diving, their spleens increase in size.
然而，其他人已经表明，如果你训练人们，如果你招募人们参加研究并训练他们屏气潜水，他们的脾脏就会增大。
So I don't know if it's just that the populations that I've worked with have some kind of genetic factors that override that change.
所以我不知道是否只是我所研究的人群具有某种遗传因素来克服这种变化。
But yeah, open question, I would say.
但是，是的，我想说，这是一个悬而未决的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know you've done some work parsing which genes are different in this population and developing some animal models for that, and that some of this converges on thyroid hormone.
我知道你已经做了一些工作来解析这个人群中哪些基因是不同的，并为此开发了一些动物模型，其中一些集中在甲状腺激素上。
Could you tell us the relationship between thyroid hormone levels, that people are fascinated by thyroid hormone, it seems.
您能告诉我们甲状腺激素水平之间的关系吗？看来人们对甲状腺激素很着迷。
Everyone either thinks they have a thyroid deficiency, or an overproduction of thyroid, or they want to increase their thyroid.
每个人要么认为自己甲状腺缺乏，要么甲状腺分泌过多，要么他们想增加甲状腺。
What is the relationship between thyroid hormone and spleen function as it relates to the production of these additional red blood cells?
甲状腺激素和脾脏功能之间有什么关系，因为它与这些额外红细胞的产生有关？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
The gene that we found that was evolving in the population correlates with higher than average thyroid hormone levels.
我们发现在人群中进化的基因与高于平均水平的甲状腺激素水平相关。
So not clinically hyperthyroid, but higher than average.
所以临床上不是甲亢，但高于平均水平。
And this is actually also true for Europeans who are carrying the same genetic variant.
对于携带相同基因变异的欧洲人来说实际上也是如此。
We showed in another group of individuals that if you have this gene variant, you have higher thyroid hormone levels and you have a larger spleen.
我们在另一组个体中发现，如果你有这种基因变异，你的甲状腺激素水平就会更高，而且你的脾脏也会更大。
So it's not just something that's true in the Sea Nomads.
所以这不仅仅是海洋游牧民族的真实情况。
And so what we think is going on potentially, and this relates to the work that we did with mice as well, is that because of these higher, I hesitate to say elevated because that's a clinical term, higher than average thyroid hormone levels, the mice, the humans, whoever it is, are producing more red blood cells.
因此，我们认为可能发生的情况，这也与我们对小鼠所做的工作有关，是因为这些更高，我犹豫说升高，因为这是一个临床术语，高于平均甲状腺激素水平，小鼠、人类，无论是谁，都产生了更多的红细胞。
And so now whether that's kind of stretching the spleen, because the spleens that we saw on the mice were larger but less dense, or if there's some other mechanism, we're not completely sure yet.
所以现在这是否是一种拉伸脾脏的方式，因为我们在小鼠身上看到的脾脏更大但密度较小，或者是否存在其他机制，我们还不能完全确定。
But yeah, it seems like these higher than average thyroid hormone levels, at least when the genetic cause was what we saw in the Sea Nomads, increase the size of the spleen, increase hemoglobin, increase hematocrit, increase red blood cell count.
但是，是的，这些甲状腺激素水平似乎高于平均水平，至少当遗传原因是我们在海洋游牧民族中看到的时候，增加了脾脏的大小，增加了血红蛋白，增加了血细胞比容，增加了红细胞计数。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can think of two general scenarios where having a nice big spleen would be advantageous.
我可以想到两种一般情况，其中拥有一个漂亮的大脾脏将是有利的。
One is in the performance enhancement context.
一是在性能增强方面。
You're a runner, maybe there's a way, I'm not suggesting this as a protocol, that getting your face into some cold water, holding your breath could afford you a kind of a boost.
你是一名跑步者，也许有一种方法，我不建议将此作为一种方案，将你的脸放入冷水中，屏住呼吸可以给你带来某种提振。
So instead of the scuba tank boost underwater, you're getting the above ground boost in endurance or strength output.
因此，您将获得地面上的耐力或力量输出提升，而不是水下潜水气瓶的提升。
But you said you have to be holding your breath at the same time in order to take advantage of that deployment of red blood cells.
但你说你必须同时屏住呼吸才能利用红细胞的部署。
Which is a little confusing to me, because I imagine if the spleen contracts and the red blood cells are deployed into the body, that those are available whether or not your mouth is open or not.
这让我有点困惑，因为我想象如果脾脏收缩并且红细胞被部署到体内，那么无论你的嘴是否张开，这些都可以使用。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And we don't, I don't think, know how quickly the spleen reuptakes those red blood cells, but it does do that eventually.
我不认为我们不知道脾脏重新摄取这些红细胞的速度有多快，但它最终确实会这样做。
So maybe this is something that would be advantageous for short bursts or something like that.
所以也许这对于短时间爆发或类似的事情是有利的。
I think there's a lot that we don't know about the performance-enhancing aspect of this, but that's really interesting because the work that we did in the mice where we replicated what we saw in these divers, they had larger spleens, they had higher red blood cell count, but they did not have any change in erythropoietin, which is how we normally think about changes in red blood cell count.
我认为关于这方面的性能增强方面我们还有很多不了解的地方，但这真的很有趣，因为我们在小鼠身上所做的工作复制了我们在这些潜水员身上看到的情况，它们有更大的脾脏，它们有更高的红细胞计数，但它们的促红细胞生成素没有任何变化，这就是我们通常对红细胞计数变化的看法。
This was a drug that was really popular with cyclists for a while.
这是一种一度很受自行车手欢迎的药物。
People would self-dose with erythropoietin, and it would increase their red blood cell count dramatically to improve their performance.
人们会自行服用促红细胞生成素，这会显着增加他们的红细胞计数，从而提高他们的表现。
So this is an erythropoietin independent mechanism of increasing your red blood cell count that could have an advantage in performance, I think.
因此，我认为，这是一种独立于促红细胞生成素的增加红细胞计数的机制，可能在性能方面具有优势。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fascinating.
令人着迷。
And then the other scenario is for robustness of one's immune system.
另一种情况是为了增强免疫系统的稳定性。
I, for one, don't like being sick, and if there's anything I can do to increase the function of my immune system, including sleep, exercise, sunlight, all those things, but in particular if I feel like I'm traveling an additional amount or not sleeping as well, I'd be willing to do pretty much anything within the realm of reason to improve my immune system vigor, right?
就我而言，我不喜欢生病，如果我可以做任何事情来增强我的免疫系统的功能，包括睡眠、锻炼、阳光，所有这些事情，但特别是如果我觉得我需要额外旅行或不睡觉，我愿意在合理范围内做任何事情来提高我的免疫系统活力，对吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if sticking my face in a bowl of cold water, 50 degrees, for I guess as long as I can hold my breath in the morning is going to potentially afford that advantage, I'm willing to be the idiot that is doing this thing without any specific clinical trial yet.
如果将我的脸浸入一碗 50 度的冷水中，因为我猜只要我早上能屏住呼吸，就有可能获得这种优势，那么我愿意成为一个在没有任何具体临床试验的情况下做这件事的白痴。
But I'd love to see a clinical trial on this.
但我很想看到这方面的临床试验。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Oh, absolutely, yeah.
哦，绝对是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Has anything been done to explore how that particular behavior, that is generating the dive reflex, can afford any enhancement in immune system function?
是否已采取任何措施来探索产生潜水反射的特定行为如何能够增强免疫系统功能？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
I haven't seen any studies that look at that, but it would be really interesting because yeah, like you, I also would do anything to not get sick.
我还没有看到任何研究对此进行研究，但这真的很有趣，因为是的，像你一样，我也会做任何事情来不生病。
And we do see in these populations a lot of older people who are continuing to dive, and there is a seeming health and robustness that I wonder if it's related to the activity of diving itself.
我们确实在这些人群中看到了很多继续潜水的老年人，他们看起来很健康，我想知道这是否与潜水活动本身有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have a family friend who's 94, my mom just told me, 94, and my mom said over the phone, "She swims four miles a day." And I'm like, "There's no way." She goes, "No, wait, she swims a mile a day, four days a week." Which is still pretty impressive, right?
我们有一位94岁的家庭朋友，我妈妈刚刚告诉我，94岁，我妈妈在电话里说，“她每天游四英里。”我想，“没有办法。”她说：“不，等等，她每周游四天，每天游一英里。”这仍然令人印象深刻，对吧？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Swimming a mile, yeah, that's quite impressive.
游一英里，是的，这真是令人印象深刻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Four days a week?
每周四天？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At 94?
94岁？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Presumably that's not backstroke.
大概这不是仰泳。
So some of it's...
所以其中一些是...
Yeah.
是的。
Is there something to being in water that just generally is good for us?
泡在水里对我们有什么好处吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
I would imagine-
我会想象——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I shower, I bathe, but is there something good about swimming or floating or diving just for our general human physiology that we're aware of?
我淋浴、洗澡，但是游泳、漂浮或潜水对于我们所了解的一般人类生理学有什么好处吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's so low impact and such a natural way to move, to exercise, that I think especially as we age, it would be a really wonderful way to stay fit and healthy.
它的影响如此之小，而且是一种如此自然的移动、锻炼方式，我认为尤其是随着年龄的增长，这将是保持健康的一种非常好的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Has the size of spleens, or rather the genes related to what you're talking about, has that been correlated with whether or not people evolved from coastal versus more central regions of continents?
脾脏的大小，或者更确切地说，与你所说的相关的基因，是否与人类是从大陆沿海地区还是从大陆中部地区进化而来有关？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
That's a really good question.
这是一个非常好的问题。
We haven't looked at that, but it would be really interesting to see because the oceans are an incredible resource in terms of food availability, especially to early humans.
我们还没有研究过这一点，但看到这一点真的很有趣，因为就食物供应而言，海洋是一种令人难以置信的资源，尤其是对早期人类而言。
So you would imagine that anyone living near a coast anywhere would take advantage of this resource.
所以你可以想象，任何居住在任何地方海岸附近的人都会利用这一资源。
So it would be interesting to see if maybe coastal populations are more likely to carry the genetic variation that enables this behavior.
因此，看看沿海人群是否更有可能携带导致这种行为的遗传变异，这将是一件很有趣的事情。
Although there are actually skeletons that have been found in various parts of the world near river systems that also suggest that those people have been diving.
尽管实际上在世界各地河流系统附近发现了骨骼，但这也表明这些人一直在潜水。
So maybe it's just being near water anywhere in the world.
所以也许只是因为世界上任何地方都靠近水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think of humans as an underwater species, but you're changing my view of this.
我不认为人类是水下物种，但你改变了我的看法。
I feel like we need to think about humans as some humans in the past and now spend a lot of time underwater.
我觉得我们需要将人类视为过去的一些人，现在却在水下度过了很多时间。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Without a scuba tank.
没有潜水气瓶。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It seems to be that way, yeah.
好像是这样，是的。
All over the world.
世界各地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's super interesting.
这太有趣了。
So this isn't the only population you've studied.
所以这并不是您研究的唯一人群。
If you would, could you tell us about the recent work, the study on women in particular?
如果愿意的话，您能告诉我们最近的工作，特别是对女性的研究吗？
And I'm very interested in how this relates to cardiovascular health.
我对这与心血管健康的关系非常感兴趣。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So, speaking of older divers, there's a group in Korea on an island called Jeju.
说到老年潜水员，韩国有一个叫做济州岛的团体。
These are all female divers.
这些都是女潜水员。
They're called the Haenyeo, which just means sea women.
她们被称为“Haenyeo”，意思是海女。
And the average age of the Haenyeo currently is around 70 years old.
目前海女的平均年龄在70岁左右。
So that's when I think of robustness with age, I think of the Haenyeo.
所以当我想到随着年龄的增长而变得稳健时，我想到了 Haenyeo。
But this all-female diving population has likely been diving in that region for thousands of years.
但这些全是女性的潜水人群可能已经在该地区潜水了数千年。
And what's really extraordinary about the Haenyeo, there's a few things.
海女号真正的非凡之处在于以下几点。
First of all, they're diving in extremely cold water, especially compared to the Bajau in Indonesia.
首先，他们在极冷的水中潜水，特别是与印度尼西亚的巴瑶人相比。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No wetsuits.
没有潜水衣。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
No wetsuit.
没有潜水衣。
Well, now they wear wetsuits.
好吧，现在他们穿着潜水衣。
Up until the '80s, they were diving in these cotton bodysuits that you can see provide zero thermal protection.
直到 80 年代，他们还穿着这些棉质连体衣潜水，你可以看到它们提供零热保护。
I mean, it's just a cotton swimsuit, essentially.
我的意思是，它本质上只是一件棉质泳衣。
So, diving with no protection in extremely cold water, and as women, they're diving throughout pregnancy.
因此，在极冷的水中没有任何保护的情况下潜水，而作为女性，她们在整个怀孕期间都在潜水。
So they're diving up until the day they give birth sometimes, and then they're back in the water a few days later.
因此，它们有时会潜水到分娩的那天，然后几天后又回到水中。
So this has really shaped this population in really interesting ways.
所以这确实以非常有趣的方式塑造了这个群体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was wondering, how deep do they dive?
我想知道他们潜多深？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
This is a really good question I get asked a lot, how deep do any of these populations dive?
这是一个非常好的问题，我经常被问到，这些人群潜水的深度有多深？
And there's just not really data, so we don't really know.
而且没有真正的数据，所以我们真的不知道。
Now we are starting to see, we're looking at the Haenyeo, we actually tracked some of their diving, and their dives tended to be much shallower, not really going any deeper than 10 meters, 30 feet.
现在我们开始看到，我们正在关注Haenyeo，我们实际上跟踪了他们的一些潜水，他们的潜水往往要浅得多，实际上深度不超过10米、30英尺。
But they're also in their 70s, 80s even.
但他们也已经70多岁了，甚至80多岁了。
We had an 81-year-old diver in our study.
我们的研究中有一位 81 岁的潜水员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And 30 feet's not nothing.
30英尺也不算什么。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We had a 20-foot deep end in the recreational pool near my home growing up, and when you're down at the bottom, you feel significant pressure.
在我成长的过程中，我家附近的休闲泳池有一个 20 英尺深的水池，当你在水底时，你会感受到巨大的压力。
You can let some air out to relieve some of that pressure, but you're-
你可以放出一些空气来缓解一些压力，但你-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I mean, 20 feet is 20 feet.
我的意思是，20 英尺就是 20 英尺。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thirty feet, and it's not a linear experience.
三十英尺，这不是一种线性体验。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
With every additional foot, you're really experiencing more and more pressure, so...
每增加一只脚，你就会承受越来越大的压力，所以......
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, and I shouldn't say it like that, it's just that compared to the Bajau have been documented to dive deeper than 200 feet deep.
是的，我不应该这样说，只是与巴瑶人相比，有记录表明他们可以潜入超过 200 英尺的深度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I'm not countering.
哦，我不反驳。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I just, for sake of people out there who perhaps haven't spent time at the bottom of a pool-
我只是，为了那些可能没有在泳池底部呆过的人们——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a 20-foot pool, 30 feet is still really impressive.
一个20英尺的泳池，30英尺还是很让人印象深刻的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, it's very impressive.
是的，这非常令人印象深刻。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're bringing a fetus down that low.
他们把胎儿降到那么低。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Again, there's no documentation of how these women have been diving throughout their pregnancy other than we know that they were diving throughout their pregnancy.
同样，除了我们知道她们在怀孕期间潜水外，没有任何记录表明这些妇女在怀孕期间如何潜水。
But yeah, presumably in their youth, they were diving to these depths with their unborn child inside them.
但是，是的，大概在他们年轻的时候，他们就带着未出生的孩子潜入了这个深处。
So it's a really-- I mean, when we think about natural selection and evolution, something that's able to act on a pregnant woman has the opportunity to take out two generations if there's not genetic variation there that's protective.
所以这真的是——我的意思是，当我们考虑自然选择和进化时，如果那里没有具有保护性的遗传变异，那么能够作用于孕妇的东西就有机会夺走两代人的生命。
So it's like, if we want to talk about really fast examples of evolution, it's anything that's acting on pregnancy.
所以，如果我们想谈论真正快速进化的例子，那就是任何对怀孕有影响的东西。
And that's what we think has been happening in this population.
我们认为这就是这个人群中正在发生的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have so many questions, some of which are cultural, some of which are biological.
我有很多问题，其中有些是文化方面的，有些是生物学方面的。
I'll start with the cultural questions.
我将从文化问题开始。
Why in this culture is it the women specifically that dive?
为什么在这种文化中潜水是专门由女性进行的？
Are they revered?
他们受人尊敬吗？
And are they diving for a particular resource that is, well, because it's underwater, presumably is not available elsewhere, but what are they diving for?
他们潜水是为了寻找某种特定的资源吗？因为它在水下，可能在其他地方找不到，但他们潜水的目的是什么？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
We don't totally know.
我们完全不知道。
I have my own personal theory, which actually relates to the fact that in a lot of places with cold water, so in Korea, in Patagonia, in Aboriginal Tasmania, it's all women diving.
我有我自己的个人理论，这实际上与以下事实有关：在很多有冷水的地方，所以在韩国、在巴塔哥尼亚、在塔斯马尼亚原住民，都是女性潜水。
So I suspect that there's something unique about the physiology of women that makes us better at diving in cold temperatures.
所以我怀疑女性的生理机能有一些独特之处，使我们能够更好地在寒冷的温度下潜水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or the men are afraid of the cold.
或者说男人怕冷。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It could be that, too.
也可能是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hear that a lot of guys that will spend dozens of hours picking apart deliberate cold exposure, when it would take them a fraction of the amount of the time to get into the water.
我听说很多人会花几十个小时来排除故意的寒冷暴露，而实际上他们只需要花一小部分时间就可以进入水中。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In my experience, this is not a controlled study.
根据我的经验，这不是一项对照研究。
Women are more tolerant of the cold, at least in terms of being willing to embrace it the first time around.
女性对寒冷的耐受力更强，至少在第一次就愿意接受寒冷方面。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have stories of, I won't say which countries, elite special forces, it wasn't the US, guys, in that case it was guys, being terrified of getting into cold water- ...
我有一些故事，我不会说哪些国家，精锐特种部队，不是美国，伙计们，在这种情况下，是伙计们，害怕陷入冷水-......
but otherwise being willing to do very challenging and indeed-
但除此之外愿意做非常有挑战性的事情，而且确实-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
very dangerous things.
非常危险的事情。
I know a woman who first cold plunge, 10 minutes, she was just in there.
我认识一个女人，她第一次冷跳水，十分钟后，她就在那里了。
In my experience, women are more willing to get into the cold the first time.
根据我的经验，女性更愿意第一次陷入寒冷。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then now there's a lot of debate online about cold tolerance in the two sexes, but the data aren't really solid there.
现在网上有很多关于两性耐寒性的争论，但数据并不可靠。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So maybe the men are just afraid of going underwater.
所以也许这些人只是害怕进入水下。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It could be.
可能是。
These are some tough ladies, I will tell you that.
这些都是一些坚强的女士，我会告诉你的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Even into old age.
甚至到了晚年。
My colleague, Jooyoung Lee at Seoul National University, she's been working with them for a very long time, and she did a study where she was trying to find retired Haenyeo, and the only ones she could find were over 100 years old because they basically don't retire.
我的同事，首尔国立大学的 Jooyoung Lee，她和他们一起工作了很长时间，她做了一项研究，试图找到退休的 Haenyeo，她能找到的只有 100 岁以上的人，因为他们基本上不会退休。
They just dive until they die, essentially.
本质上，他们只是潜水直到死去。
So she had these two women who were about three feet tall who were retired Haenyeo, because those are the only ones she could find.
所以她有这两个大约三英尺高的女人，她们是退休的海女，因为她们是她唯一能找到的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're 100 years old?
他们100岁了？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As we have this conversation, I think it's very important to remind people that correlation isn't causation-
当我们进行这次谈话时，我认为提醒人们相关性不是因果关系非常重要 -
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with all the obsession with longevity and living longer.
对长寿和活得更长久的痴迷。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not going to rule out the possibility that getting into cold water, in particular diving or generating the dive reflex with cold water, doesn't have a longevity effect, but I don't think there's any direct evidence that it does.
我不排除进入冷水，特别是潜水或用冷水产生潜水反射不会产生长寿效果的可能性，但我认为没有任何直接证据表明它确实如此。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
No. I mean, it would certainly be interesting to explore, but I don't think there's any evidence so far other than anecdotal.
不，我的意思是，探索它肯定会很有趣，但我认为除了轶事之外，到目前为止还没有任何证据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would love to do that study.
我很愿意做这项研究。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The problem is that you need to do a very long study.
问题是你需要做很长时间的研究。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the other problem with longevity studies is You don't really have a good control group, at least within subject-
长寿研究的另一个问题是你实际上没有一个好的对照组，至少在主题内-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because you don't know when you would've died.
因为你不知道自己什么时候会死。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so these incredible women are diving-
好吧，这些不可思议的女人正在潜水——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
up until their 70s, 80s?
直到70多岁、80多岁？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
70s, 80s, beyond, I guess.
我猜是 70 年代、80 年代、甚至更远的时代。
The oldest diver that I've personally worked with was over 80.
我个人合作过的最年长的潜水员已经80多岁了。
But yeah, they're so athletic as they do it.
但是，是的，他们的运动能力很强。
But yeah, in terms of are they revered, I think now, yes.
但是，是的，就他们是否受人尊敬而言，我想现在是的。
I think that wasn't always true.
我认为这并不总是正确的。
One haenyeo told me that in her youth, she was kind of embarrassed to be a haenyeo.
一位海女告诉我，在她年轻的时候，她对成为一名海女感到有点尴尬。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
And a lot of it's because they're exposed to the sun, so they have darker skin than a lot of other women.
很大程度上是因为她们暴露在阳光下，所以她们的皮肤比许多其他女性更深。
They tend to be very loud because a lot of times they rupture their eardrums from diving.
他们的声音往往很大，因为很多时候他们的耳膜会因潜水而破裂。
If they don't pressurize correctly, they can have hearing damage, so they're known for being very loud.
如果它们没有正确加压，可能会导致听力受损，因此它们以声音很大而闻名。
And so, I think there was kind of a marginalization early on, but now they're recognized as a UNESCO World Heritage intangible site, essentially.
因此，我认为早期存在某种边缘化，但现在它们基本上被认为是联合国教科文组织世界遗产非物质遗产。
And there's just, I think, tremendous respect for the population now.
我认为，现在人们受到了极大的尊重。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very cool.
非常酷。
What are they gathering down there?
他们在下面聚集什么？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
They are diving for all kinds of things.
他们为各种各样的事情而潜水。
They're diving for sea urchin, abalone.
他们正在潜水寻找海胆和鲍鱼。
They also harvest seaweed.
他们还收获海藻。
I've seen them pull up octopus.
我见过他们拉起章鱼。
They'll spear an octopus.
他们会刺伤章鱼。
And they do it in a very interesting, kind of controlled way.
他们以一种非常有趣、可控的方式做到这一点。
They're really guardians of their marine environment, where they make sure that they don't overfish things.
他们确实是海洋环境的守护者，确保他们不会过度捕捞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
So the sea urchin season is very short, because if they over-harvest the sea urchin, that population won't replenish.
所以海胆的季节很短，因为如果他们过度捕捞海胆，海胆的数量就不会补充。
So they have this system where they really take care of the marine environment.
所以他们有这个系统，可以真正照顾海洋环境。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's all the proteins again.
所以又都是蛋白质。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the expensive sushi.
这是昂贵的寿司。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uni.
大学。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Delicious too.
也很好吃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm still developing a taste for uni.
我仍在培养对大学的兴趣。
I'm trying, but-
我正在努力，但是-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
When it's fresh out of the shell, there's nothing better.
当它刚从壳里出来时，没有什么比这更好的了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, I'm willing to try.
好的，我愿意尝试。
Octopus, I have too much an affinity for cephalopods to eat octopus.
章鱼，我对头足类动物太有感情了，不敢吃章鱼。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I have in the past, and it can be delicious.
但我过去吃过，而且可以很好吃。
And so it's amazing to me if I step back from these two populations, and I think more broadly as well, about what people are willing to work for.
因此，如果我从这两个人群中退一步，并更广泛地思考人们愿意为了什么工作，这对我来说是令人惊讶的。
Humans will work very hard to get protein.
人类会非常努力地获取蛋白质。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just kind of incredible how hard they'll work for proteins and lipids combined in delicious form.
令人难以置信的是，它们会多么努力地将蛋白质和脂质以美味的形式结合在一起。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're not aquatic animals.
我们不是水生动物。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're willing to risk their lives and the lives of their fetuses-
他们愿意冒着生命和胎儿生命危险——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to the next generation, right?
传给下一代，对吗？
There's nothing, I think, that a species tries to protect more than-
我认为，一个物种最想保护的莫过于——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the next generation.
下一代。
One would hope that they're willing to risk their lives on a daily basis, multiple times per day-
人们希望他们愿意每天冒着生命危险，每天多次——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to go collect protein, basically.
基本上是去收集蛋白质。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And in these cold temperatures as well.
在如此寒冷的温度下也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So do you think between on-land hunting and what you're describing, that if we think about Homo sapien evolution generally, that a big part of Homo sapien evolution as it relates to selection of particular genes to drive particular traits and abilities, relates to this thing of just trying to get more protein and fat?
那么，你认为在陆地狩猎和你所描述的之间，如果我们一般性地考虑智人的进化，智人进化的很大一部分，因为它涉及选择特定的基因来驱动特定的性状和能力，与只是试图获得更多的蛋白质和脂肪有关？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It certainly could.
当然可以。
Diet is an incredible driver of selection.
饮食是一个令人难以置信的选择驱动力。
So, a very common example of natural selection is lactase persistence, so our ability to continue to consume milk past infancy.
因此，自然选择的一个非常常见的例子是乳糖酶的持久性，因此我们有能力在婴儿期过后继续食用牛奶。
And that happened very quickly in multiple different human populations.
这种情况在多个不同的人群中发生得非常快。
So it happened in Africa, and it happened in Europe.
这发生在非洲，也发生在欧洲。
And another example is the Greenlandic Inuit.
另一个例子是格陵兰因纽特人。
A huge part of their diet was marine mammals that have really high lipid content, and so they actually evolved to be able to better metabolize those lipids so that it wouldn't kill them from heart disease or something like that.
他们的饮食很大一部分是海洋哺乳动物，它们的脂质含量非常高，因此它们实际上进化到能够更好地代谢这些脂质，这样它们就不会死于心脏病或类似疾病。
So yeah, diet as a driver of selection is extremely strong.
所以，是的，饮食作为选择的驱动力是非常强大的。
So it may be that this has been shaping our species in ways that we don't even know.
因此，这可能正在以我们甚至不知道的方式塑造我们的物种。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super interesting.
超级有趣。
So in this group of Korean women divers, what's going on with their cardiovascular system?
那么这群韩国女跳水运动员，她们的心血管系统到底怎么了？
Earlier we were talking about how this might have implications for oxygen utilization in the brain and body, and potential disease treatment ramifications.
早些时候我们讨论过这可能对大脑和身体的氧气利用以及潜在的疾病治疗产生影响。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So we found two different adaptations.
所以我们发现了两种不同的适应方式。
And I say adaptation, but there's kind of adaptation in a physiological sense, this thing that you can do by training, or adaptation in a genetic sense, and we have found one of each.
我说的是适应，但有一种生理意义上的适应，你可以通过训练来做到这一点，或者是遗传意义上的适应，我们已经找到了其中的一种。
So the training adaptation that we found was that, I mentioned before that when you dive, your heart rate slows down to try to conserve oxygen, so their heart rate through a lifetime of training slows down even more.
所以我们发现的训练适应是，我之前提到过，当你潜水时，你的心率会减慢以试图保存氧气，因此他们的心率在一生的训练中会减慢得更多。
So you could visually see this when they were doing these dives.
所以当他们进行这些潜水时你可以直观地看到这一点。
Watching their heart rate, you could just see it plummeting.
观察他们的心率，你可以看到它在直线下降。
We had one individual whose heart rate dropped more than 40 beats per minute in less than 15 seconds.
我们有一个人的心率在不到 15 秒的时间内下降了每分钟 40 次以上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yikes.
哎呀。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
So really dramatic.
太戏剧性了。
And the reason that we think that that's a training adaptation rather than a genetic adaptation, was that it was only true in the divers.
我们之所以认为这是一种训练适应而不是遗传适应，是因为它只适用于潜水员。
So non-divers with the same genetics didn't have this phenomenon.
所以具有相同基因的非潜水员不会出现这种现象。
It's interesting to think about what the potential health benefits of that could be.
思考它对健康的潜在益处是很有趣的。
It's clearly something that you can train.
这显然是你可以训练的东西。
This has also been observed in other competitive breath-hold divers.
在其他竞技性屏气潜水员中也观察到了这一点。
But in terms of how that could benefit your health, maybe it's good for your heart to have that kind of plasticity in terms of its response.
但就这如何有益于您的健康而言，也许您的心脏在其反应方面具有这种可塑性是有好处的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
When I think about heart rate, I think mainly about autonomic function, and again, vagal innervation seems to be a theme there.
当我想到心率时，我主要想到的是自主神经功能，而迷走神经支配似乎也是其中的一个主题。
The vagus is responsible for slowing the heart rate down.
迷走神经负责减慢心率。
Anytime we exhale through respiratory sinus arrhythmia, we essentially slow our heart rate down.
每当我们因呼吸性窦性心律失常呼气时，我们的心率都会减慢。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the fastest way I'm aware of to consciously slow our heart rate down.
这是我所知道的有意识地减慢心率的最快方法。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So as one dives, I guess if they're exhaling, letting out some air, dumping some carbon dioxide, which is probably a good thing if you're a free diver.
因此，当一个人潜水时，我想他们是否在呼气，排出一些空气，排出一些二氧化碳，如果你是一名自由潜水员，这可能是一件好事。
I don't want to encourage people to do this- ...
我不想鼓励人们这样做-...
because that shuts off the gasp reflex that would have you jolt to the surface.
因为这会阻止让你跳到水面的喘息反射。
But assuming no one's going to go out and try this, by dumping air, you're exhaling.
但假设没有人会出去尝试这个，通过倾倒空气，你正在呼气。
Exhaling slows the heart rate, but not 40 beats per minute.
呼气会减慢心率，但不会减慢每分钟 40 次。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's usually a fraction of that.
通常只是其中的一小部分。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And so then we also found this genetic adaptation that we think is driven by the fact that they're diving through pregnancy.
然后我们还发现了这种遗传适应，我们认为这是由它们在怀孕期间潜水这一事实驱动的。
So When pregnant women have sleep apnea, which is where you hold your breath in your sleep, so you can think of it as unintentional diving through pregnancy, they tend to develop these blood pressure-related complications.
因此，当孕妇患有睡眠呼吸暂停（即在睡眠中屏住呼吸，因此您可以将其视为怀孕期间无意的潜水）时，她们往往会出现这些与血压相关的并发症。
So like preeclampsia, they call them hypertensive disorders of pregnancy.
因此，与先兆子痫一样，他们将其称为妊娠期高血压疾病。
There's no studies that have shown this yet, but we think that if you're diving, different kind of apnea, through pregnancy, that would also increase your risk for these disorders.
目前还没有研究证明这一点，但我们认为，如果您在怀孕期间潜水，出现不同类型的呼吸暂停，也会增加您患这些疾病的风险。
And so what we saw was that there was a genetic variant that was actually driving a lowering of their diastolic blood pressure while they were diving.
所以我们看到的是，有一种基因变异实际上导致了他们在潜水时舒张压的降低。
And so we think that this is protective against these hypertensive or high blood pressure effects.
因此我们认为这可以预防这些高血压的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's interesting.
这很有趣。
So for non-divers, so for pregnant women on land who aren't from this population-
所以对于非潜水员来说，对于陆地上不属于这个人群的孕妇来说——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the picture I'm getting is that they're sleeping on their back, perhaps because it's more comfortable as they get very pregnant, and their airway is getting cut off at some point.
我得到的图片是他们仰卧着睡觉，也许是因为当他们怀孕的时候这样更舒服，而且他们的呼吸道在某些时候会被切断。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they're having these hypoxic episodes.
所以他们会出现缺氧症状。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then there's some gasping as the carbon dioxide gets high.
然后随着二氧化碳浓度升高，会出现一些喘息声。
This is also, incidentally, what people who are overweight or, by the way, people with very big necks.
顺便说一句，这也是超重的人或脖子很大的人的情况。
This is why a lot of big-necked, very lean men die in their sleep.
这就是为什么很多脖子粗、瘦的男人在睡梦中死去的原因。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a well-known thing in certain sports communities.
这在某些体育界是众所周知的事情。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very tragic.
这是非常悲惨的。
You say, "Well, this person's fit, but they're lying on their back, big necks, and their airway is compressed."
你说：“嗯，这个人身体健康，但他们仰卧着，脖子很大，气道被压缩。”
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you have a big neck, doesn't necessarily mean you're going to die early, but make sure you're breathing right at night.
如果你有一个大脖子，并不一定意味着你会早死，但要确保你在晚上呼吸正常。
So because sleep apnea is very dangerous.
因为睡眠呼吸暂停是非常危险的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It is, yeah.
是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think we think of it as just snoring-
我想我们认为这只是打鼾-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Like diving, yeah
喜欢潜水，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
right?
对吗？
But it's super dangerous.
但这是超级危险的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You're putting yourself into a state of hypoxemia, so your oxygen is very low.
您使自己处于低氧血症状态，因此您的氧气含量非常低。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for pregnant women who are concerned about hypoxia-
那么对于担心缺氧的孕妇来说——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what are the options that they have, besides becoming a diver and joining this incredible community in Kurio?
除了成为一名潜水员并加入库里奥这个令人难以置信的社区之外，他们还有哪些选择？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, that's one of the things that we're hoping to find from studying these women.
嗯，这是我们希望通过研究这些女性发现的事情之一。
So if they've evolved some kind of protective mechanism that protects them in the case of apnea, maybe that's something we could develop into a therapeutic that could be used to help prevent that same hypertensive disorder of pregnancy in pregnant women who have apnea for other reasons.
因此，如果它们进化出了某种保护机制，可以在发生呼吸暂停的情况下保护它们，也许我们可以将其开发成一种治疗方法，用于帮助预防因其他原因而发生呼吸暂停的孕妇患上同样的妊娠期高血压疾病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
But otherwise, I would say, I think preeclampsia used to be a death sentence for mothers and fetus, which is why it was such a strong driver of evolution.
但除此之外，我想说，我认为先兆子痫曾经是母亲和胎儿的死刑，这就是为什么它是进化的强大驱动力。
Now, I think awareness of it enables treatment, but that's only something that's happened in the last I don't know how many decades.
现在，我认为意识到这一点可以进行治疗，但这只是最近我不知道有多少年发生的事情。
So that's why it could've been such a powerful force in this population.
这就是为什么它在这个人群中可能是一股如此强大的力量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uncomfortable topic, but I think an important one.
这是一个令人不舒服的话题，但我认为这是一个重要的话题。
Earlier, you were talking about genetic selection and what determines survival of offspring.
早些时候，您谈到了基因选择以及决定后代生存的因素。
Is it the case that many miscarriages, if not most miscarriages, are because the mutations that arise would've been destructive at some point postnatally, after birth?
许多流产（如果不是大多数流产）是不是因为发生的突变在出生后的某个时刻具有破坏性？
So it's a kind of nature's veto on the genetic program.
所以这是大自然对遗传程序的否决。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm not a maternal health specialist, but I do know that most mutations create non-viable embryos.
我不是孕产妇健康专家，但我确实知道大多数突变都会产生无法存活的胚胎。
And so, yeah, I think that could certainly be driving the early miscarriages, especially.
所以，是的，我认为这肯定会导致早期流产，特别是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it could be pre-implantation or post-implantation.
所以它可能是植入前或植入后。
A mutation arises, and somehow the genetic programs of embryology are somehow made aware that down the line, this is going to lead to a stillborn fetus or something.
突变出现了，不知何故，胚胎学的遗传程序以某种方式意识到，这将导致胎儿死产或其他什么。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So nature doesn't have a conscious logic in the same way that we think, but the genetic decision therefore is to stop, is essentially to stop cell proliferation.
因此，大自然并不像我们想象的那样有意识逻辑，但遗传决定因此是停止，本质上是停止细胞增殖。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the pregnancy is terminated.
并且终止妊娠。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, because a lot of proteins are involved in many systems, and so if you have a mutation that's problematic in one of those proteins that's involved in all these different systems, it's just going to start to go haywire very early on.
是的，因为许多蛋白质涉及许多系统，所以如果涉及所有这些不同系统的其中一种蛋白质出现问题，它就会很早就开始失控。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I'm very curious about how these genetic adaptations and how they relate to behavior impact organs versus things on the surface of the body that we can see, versus both.
我很好奇这些遗传适应以及它们与行为的关系如何影响器官与我们可以看到的身体表面的事物，以及两者。
I don't know if this is true, but long ago I heard that, and I don't want to scare anyone because it's not true in every case.
我不知道这是否属实，但很久以前我就听说过，我不想吓到任何人，因为并非所有情况都是如此。
I'll repeat, it's not true in every case.
我再说一遍，并非所有情况都是如此。
But I was told by a friend of mine who's a physician that a lot of the wine spot pigmentation of the surface of the body, like a baby will come out with a very dramatic wine spot pigmentation of part of the face or the head, sometimes, not always, is correlated with mutations in internal organs.
但我的一位医生朋友告诉我，身体表面的很多酒斑色素沉着，就像婴儿的脸部或头部部分会出现非常明显的酒斑色素沉着一样，有时（但并不总是）与内脏器官的突变有关。
And this is having run a mouse lab for a long time, you study mouse mutants, mice that overexpress or lack or are hypomorphic for a particular gene, and you learn as you work with one of these populations that oftentimes the mutation that impacts, say, retinal development, for which I need to take the retina out, look at it under a microscope, and find which cells are miswired or something like that, correlates with something on the surface of the body.
这是在长期运行小鼠实验室的情况下，你研究小鼠突变体，即过度表达或缺乏或低效表达特定基因的小鼠，当你与其中一个群体一起工作时，你会了解到这些突变通常会影响视网膜发育，为此我需要取出视网膜，在显微镜下观察它，并发现哪些细胞被错误连接或类似的东西与身体表面的某些东西相关。
Where you go, "Oh yeah, the ones with the curly tails?" Those are the ones that are likely to be the mutants.
你去哪里，“哦，是的，那些有卷曲尾巴的？”这些很可能是突变体。
You still have to do the genotyping.
您仍然需要进行基因分型。
You still got to send out DNA or analyze DNA.
你仍然需要发送 DNA 或分析 DNA。
Nowadays, you send it out, but in the old days, we genotyped our own mice, and what you find is that oftentimes there are these peripheral markers of central issues.
现在，你把它发出来，但在过去，我们对自己的老鼠进行基因分型，你会发现，通常存在这些核心问题的外围标记。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm also interested in the inverse of that, where there are peripheral markers of central advantages.
我也对相反的情况感兴趣，即核心优势的外围标记。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in these populations that you studied, they have these larger spleens or this ability to dive deeper and longer, can overcome hypoxia through a drop in heart rate.
因此，在您研究的这些人群中，他们具有较大的脾脏或具有潜水更深和更长时间的能力，可以通过降低心率来克服缺氧。
Is there anything about their external appearance that isn't about soft feet or exposure to the sun that tells you, "This population is different.
他们的外表除了柔软的脚或暴露在阳光下之外，还有什么可以告诉你：“这个群体是不同的。
They look different in ways that we don't expect different populations to just look different"?
他们看起来不同，我们不希望不同的人群看起来不同”？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And to your point, the phosphodiesterase that we found that was evolving in the Bajau, phosphodiesterases are involved in so many different functions.
就你而言，我们发现在巴瑶人中进化的磷酸二酯酶，磷酸二酯酶涉及许多不同的功能。
And so there are chances for these mutations to affect not just the systems that we're interested in, but other systems as well.
因此，这些突变有可能不仅影响我们感兴趣的系统，还影响其他系统。
In both populations, the people look incredibly fit and athletic, and they tend to have just a very robust appearance.
在这两个人群中，人们看起来都非常健康和运动，而且他们往往有着非常健壮的外表。
Now, is that because they're diving every day, and there aren't that many 70-year-old women who are jumping off a boat every day to go to work?
现在，是不是因为她们每天都在潜水，而每天跳船去上班的70多岁的妇女不是有那么多呢？
Or is it something related to their genetics?
或者说这与他们的基因有关？
I don't think we know yet, but it would be really interesting to look into that more.
我认为我们还不知道，但进一步研究这一点真的很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The reason I ask this is that as we were discussing at the beginning of today's conversation, mate selection, we think of, "They smell so great.
我问这个问题的原因是，当我们在今天谈话开始时讨论择偶时，我们想到，“它们闻起来太棒了。
We like them for this reason, we like them for that reason." And there's the conscious choices that we're making, and then there's all the stuff working below our level of consciousness, like, "Oh, they smell great," and you're actually selecting, at least in part, for their immune system-
我们因为这个原因喜欢他们，我们因为这个原因喜欢他们。”我们正在做出有意识的选择，然后所有的东西都在我们的意识水平下发挥作用，比如，“哦，它们闻起来很棒”，而你实际上是在选择，至少部分是为了他们的免疫系统——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the potential immune system of offspring.
以及后代潜在的免疫系统。
Even if you decide you never want to have children with this person, for whatever reason, this stuff is happening in parallel, consciously and unconsciously.
即使你决定永远不想和这个人生孩子，无论出于什么原因，这些事情都会有意识和无意识地并行发生。
And so when I think about the special abilities of different populations at the level of internal organs, like a spleen ability-
所以当我想到不同人群在内脏器官层面的特殊能力时，比如脾脏的能力——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you also have to wonder if this is represented at the level of, I don't know.
你还想知道这是否代表了我不知道的水平。
It could be anything, right?
它可以是任何东西，对吧？
It could be the ones with the better spleens have really nice hands.
可能脾脏越好的人，手就越漂亮。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you don't think about it.
而你不去想它。
You don't think to correlate those things.
你不认为将这些事情联系起来。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But as in the example I was discussing with the mice in a laboratory, when you get mutations that you know impact an internal organ, almost always there's something about, they might have a particular fur pigmentation pattern, assuming it's a whole body mutation.
但正如我在实验室与老鼠讨论的例子一样，当你知道影响内脏器官的突变时，几乎总是有一些东西，它们可能有一种特殊的皮毛色素沉着模式，假设它是全身突变。
Or sometimes they'll have one webbed toe-
或者有时他们会有一个有蹼的脚趾-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or they'll have pinkies, it's mice.
或者他们会有小指，那就是老鼠。
They'd have a little- ...
他们会有一点——
back paw digit that faces in not out like the others.
后爪指朝内而不是像其他人一样朝外。
And so you learn when you work with these things to say, "Oh, those are the good ones."
因此，当你处理这些东西时，你会学会说：“哦，这些都是好东西。”
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Those are the mutant ones." Or in some cases, "Those are the good mutant ones."
“那些是突变体。”或者在某些情况下，“那些是好的突变体。”
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And I think as humans, we don't tend to do this consciously.
我认为作为人类，我们不会有意识地这样做。
It's not how we're trained to think.
这不是我们被训练的思考方式。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank goodness.
感谢上帝。
That would complicate all the dating apps.
这将使所有约会应用程序变得复杂。
People would have to show their digits and Lord knows what else.
人们必须展示他们的数字，天知道还有什么。
But human mate selection is, in part, genetic selection.
但人类的择偶在某种程度上是基因选择。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what are your thoughts on this in terms of how these things correlate with human choice and behavior?
那么，您对这些事物与人类选择和行为的关联有何看法？
I'm asking you to speculate here, obviously.
显然，我要求你在这里进行推测。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
I think that certainly, we know that these populations have been evolving.
我认为我们当然知道这些人群一直在进化。
We have theories as to what is driving that selection, but it could be sexual selection.
我们有关于是什么推动了这种选择的理论，但它可能是性选择。
It could be, like you're saying, that people carrying this genetic variation that happens to also make them a good diver in ways that we expected to find, also make them more attractive in ways that we weren't even looking for.
就像你说的，携带这种基因变异的人可能会以我们期望的方式使他们成为一名优秀的潜水员，也以我们甚至没有寻找的方式使他们更具吸引力。
And we weren't even thinking about pregnancy, really, when we started the study with the Henio.
事实上，当我们开始使用 Henio 进行研究时，我们甚至没有考虑怀孕的问题。
It wasn't until we got these results and we were saying, "What is this difference in blood pressure?" And speaking with maternal health specialists, that we really pieced it together.
直到我们得到这些结果后我们才问：“血压有什么差异？”与孕产妇健康专家交谈后，我们确实将其拼凑起来。
So I think it's the kind of thing where, yeah, you don't even really know necessarily all of the pieces of the puzzle, and that's where it's a lot more questions for us to ask in the future.
所以我认为，是的，你甚至不一定真正了解拼图的所有部分，这就是我们未来要问的更多问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
As long as we're talking about diving underwater, as a vision scientist, or at least that's where my initial training was, I have to ask about vision underwater.
只要我们谈论水下潜水，作为一名视觉科学家，或者至少这是我最初接受的训练，我就必须询问水下视觉。
Do these two populations use goggles?
这两个人群都使用护目镜吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
So now they do.
所以现在他们做到了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
But you can imagine goggles haven't been around that long.
但你可以想象护目镜出现的时间还没有那么长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
So at some point in the past they didn't.
所以在过去的某个时候他们没有。
The study that first got me interested in this was a study done in Moken children where I think it was literally a researcher who was on vacation in Thailand, noticed these little kids diving for things and having this ability to see underwater, and set up an experiment, and had European children and Moken children diving to look at things underwater.
首先让我对此感兴趣的是一项针对莫肯儿童的研究，我认为这实际上是一位在泰国度假的研究人员，注意到这些小孩潜水寻找东西并具有在水下观察的能力，并进行了一项实验，让欧洲儿童和莫肯儿童潜水观察水下的东西。
And the Moken children had Better eyesight underwater than the European children.
莫肯儿童在水下的视力比欧洲儿童更好。
Now that same researcher, after publishing this paper, went back to Europe and trained European children to do the same thing, essentially, to perform at the same level as these Moken children.
现在，同一位研究人员在发表这篇论文后，回到了欧洲，训练欧洲儿童做同样的事情，本质上是达到与这些莫肯儿童相同的水平。
And so there was this kind of dismissal like, "Oh, well, you can train Europeans to see underwater just as well, so it must not be evolved.
所以就有了这样的驳斥，“哦，好吧，你可以训练欧洲人也能在水下看到东西，所以它一定不能进化。
It must not be genetic.
它一定不是遗传的。
It has to just be training." But I think that's a logical fallacy that has prevented a lot of research from being done in these populations, because just because you can train someone to be at the same level as someone else doesn't mean that that person didn't have an advantage.
它必须只是训练。”但我认为这是一个逻辑谬误，它阻碍了在这些人群中进行大量研究，因为仅仅因为你可以训练某人使其达到与其他人相同的水平，并不意味着那个人没有优势。
Definitely, there's a difference in their vision, and what causes that, I think we still don't know.
当然，他们的视力存在差异，我认为我们仍然不知道造成这种差异的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interesting.
太有趣了。
I'm just going to take one minute and explain to people the underwater thing, because I find it fascinating that the surface of the eye is rounded, obviously.
我只想花一分钟向人们解释水下的事情，因为我发现眼睛的表面显然是圆形的，这很有趣。
People get that, and that's what allows you to refract, to bend the light to a single point so that things look nice and crisp.
人们明白这一点，这就是让你能够折射、将光线弯曲到一个点，使事物看起来漂亮而清晰的原因。
And when you're underwater, the water essentially fills in the roundness around it.
当你在水下时，水基本上填满了周围的圆形区域。
The air does, of course, above water as well, but because of the similarity in basically the density of the water and the surface of the eye, even though they're different, you get less of a bending of the light to a point.
当然，空气在水面上也是如此，但由于水和眼睛表面的密度基本上相似，即使它们不同，你得到的光线弯曲到一点的程度也会减少。
So the reason I'm saying this, the reason I'm giving this very crude lesson in optics is there were really two possibilities.
所以我之所以这么说，之所以要上这个非常粗略的光学课，是因为实际上有两种可能性。
One is that kids that dive a lot in their youth have a flatter eye, right?
一是年轻时经常潜水的孩子眼睛比较平坦，对吗？
If you think about a goggle or any kind of underwater seeing device, you're basically putting air between the eye and the water-
如果你想到护目镜或任何类型的水下观察装置，基本上就是在眼睛和水之间放置了空气 -
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and you're making it flat.
你正在把它弄平。
So the idea that the eye would become more flat through diving isn't inconceivable.
因此，通过潜水使眼睛变得更加平坦的想法并非不可想象。
I suppose it could happen, but it makes perfect sense to me as to why the European children could do this also, because you train it enough, it turns out it's the ability to constrict the pupil down really small that can account for this adaptation.
我想这可能会发生，但对我来说，为什么欧洲孩子也能做到这一点，这对我来说是完全有道理的，因为你训练得足够多，事实证明，正是将瞳孔缩小到很小的能力才能解释这种适应。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
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Altra 跑鞋注重空间。
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与传统跑鞋不同，Altra FIT 为脚趾提供了更多自然活动空间，因此每一步都有力、平衡且舒适。
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无论您要做什么，请与 Altra 一起出去。
Shop now at ultrarunning.com.
立即前往 ultrarunning.com 购买。
That's ultrarunning.com.
那是 ultrarunning.com。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I wouldn't have thought that diving underwater and learning to pick up small objects underwater would make the eye more flat, kind of like wearing a goggle underwater.
所以我不会想到在水下潜水并学习在水下捡起小物体会让眼睛变得更扁平，有点像在水下戴上护目镜。
But the point you make is an extremely important one, because if you take a population that is already afforded some sort of potential genetic advantage and you train them even further-
但你提出的观点非常重要，因为如果你对一个已经具备某种潜在遗传优势的群体进行进一步的训练——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's when you get X-Men-like behavior.
那就是你表现出X战警般行为的时候。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is really all about the X-Men.
这确实是关于 X 战警的全部。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And women, as you clearly pointed out.
还有女性，正如您明确指出的那样。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think that brings us to this question of human super performance.
我认为这给我们带来了人类超级表现的问题。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think about the fact that almost always when I see a marathon winner nowadays, and I think about, is it Eliud Kipchoge?
我想到这样一个事实，现在每当我看到马拉松冠军时，我都会想，这是埃鲁德·基普乔格吗？
Sorry, normally I don't bring him into the frame consciously here, but for the audience here, my producer and business partner at the "Human Lab" podcast is a triathlete.
抱歉，通常我不会有意识地将他带入画面，但对于这里的观众来说，我的制作人和“人类实验室”播客的商业伙伴是一名铁人三项运动员。
What is the guy's name?
那家伙叫什么名字？
Eliud Kipchoge.
埃鲁德·基普乔格。
Eliud Kipchoge set the marathon record with mile times on the order of- 4:35 ...
埃鲁德·基普乔格 (Eliud Kipchoge) 创造了马拉松纪录，英里时间约为 4 分 35 秒……
26.3, 26.2 miles at somewhere in the four and a half minute mile pace continuously.
26.3、26.2 英里，连续四分钟半英里的配速。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So he represents among the pinnacle of that sport.
所以他代表了这项运动的巅峰。
Almost always, when we see these incredible endurance runners, they seem to descend from specific regions of the world.
几乎总是，当我们看到这些令人难以置信的耐力跑者时，他们似乎来自世界的特定地区。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can we talk about why that's so?
我们能谈谈为什么会这样吗？
Are they inheriting some sort of red blood cell trait?
他们是否继承了某种红细胞特征？
Is it the light bonedness combined with that?
是与此相结合的轻骨感吗？
What leads to incredible human performance?
是什么导致了令人难以置信的人类表现？
I know you're a runner.
我知道你是一名跑步者。
Your husband's a runner.
你丈夫是一名跑步者。
So how much hope is there for the rest of us, and why is it that folks like Eliud are so unbelievably spectacular?
那么我们其他人还有多少希望，为什么像埃鲁德这样的人如此令人难以置信的出色呢？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
I would love to look at that scientifically.
我很想从科学角度来看待这个问题。
He's absolutely incredible.
他绝对令人难以置信。
Breaking the two-hour marathon record is also just unbelievable.
打破两小时马拉松纪录也令人难以置信。
But I think there have been, I'm not as familiar with this literature, but there have been studies looking at the proportion of bone lengths in certain parts of Africa, especially.
但我认为，我对这些文献不太熟悉，但有一些研究特别关注非洲某些地区的骨骼长度比例。
It's also interesting to note that a lot of these really talented runners come from Ethiopia, where there are highland areas where humans have actually adapted to altitude.
有趣的是，许多真正有才华的跑步者都来自埃塞俄比亚，那里有高原地区，人类实际上已经适应了海拔。
So in addition to some of these biomechanical advantages, they may actually also have physiological advantages that enable them to run faster.
因此，除了这些生物力学优势之外，他们实际上还可能具有生理优势，使他们能够跑得更快。
But yeah, I think this is an excellent example of there's clearly something biological making people from this part of the world really excellent runners.
但是，是的，我认为这是一个很好的例子，显然有一些生物因素使来自世界这一地区的人们成为真正优秀的跑步者。
And just because you can train a European runner to compete at nearly the same level, that doesn't mean that there's not something special about people like Kipchoge.
仅仅因为你可以训练欧洲跑步运动员参加几乎相同水平的比赛，这并不意味着像基普乔格这样的人没有什么特别之处。
And so this comes up a lot with the Bajau as well, because people say, "Oh, well, they don't hold the free diving depth record." It's like, well, yeah, but they're not training to hold that record.
因此，巴瑶族人也经常出现这种情况，因为人们说，“哦，好吧，他们没有保持自由潜水深度记录。”就好像，嗯，是的，但他们并没有接受训练来保持这一记录。
They're diving just to collect food for their families.
他们潜水只是为了为家人收集食物。
They're not training.
他们不是在训练。
So what would happen if we did train them?
那么如果我们训练他们会发生什么呢？
And I think it's a great point.
我认为这是一个很好的观点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If we take this out of the realm of physical performance and we take it into cognitive or mathematical performance, I feel like there's some fun thought experiments we could do.
如果我们将其从身体表现领域中拿出来，并将其纳入认知或数学表现中，我觉得我们可以做一些有趣的思想实验。
Before we started, you were talking about your time at Princeton as an undergraduate, seeing John Nash famed for sadly having- schizophrenia, diagnosed schizophrenia.
在我们开始之前，你谈到了你在普林斯顿大学读本科时的经历，看到约翰·纳什因不幸患有精神分裂症而闻名，被诊断为精神分裂症。
The topic of the movie, "A Beautiful Mind" with Russell Crowe.
电影的主题是罗素·克劳主演的《美丽心灵》。
But at the same time, having incredible abilities based on presumably things that either correlate with or just by chance run in parallel with the schizophrenia.
但与此同时，拥有基于可能与精神分裂症相关或偶然与精神分裂症并行的事物的令人难以置信的能力。
Who knows what's driving what, or if they're in parallel.
谁知道什么在驱动什么，或者它们是否并行。
We have examples, again, I'm pulling from movies like "Rain Man," where there's a person has autism of a type that makes social interactions very challenging.
我们有一些例子，我再次引用《雨人》这样的电影，其中有一个人患有某种类型的自闭症，这使得社交互动变得非常具有挑战性。
But in that example, which is, I think, representative of at least some people with autism, extreme mathematical calculation abilities, especially in the physical space, being able to see things and count them very rapidly.
但在那个例子中，我认为至少代表了一些患有自闭症的人，他们具有极高的数学计算能力，特别是在物理空间中，能够非常快速地看到事物并计算它们。
Last example I'll give is there's this math competition held in India where the kids can update the numbers by moving their hands with a sensor on it, and they're adding the numbers very fast.
我举的最后一个例子是在印度举行的数学竞赛，孩子们可以通过移动装有传感器的手来更新数字，而且他们的加法速度非常快。
And you just see this kid basically spooling numbers, spooling the numbers, spooling the numbers.
你只会看到这个孩子基本上在假造数字，假造数字，假造数字。
At the end, they get one opportunity to answer the addition of this immensely long string of numbers correctly, and this kid nails it.
最后，他们有一次机会正确回答这一长串数字的加法，而这个孩子做到了。
And you go, "Whoa," he's adding things very fast.
你会说，“哇，”他添加东西的速度非常快。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Presumably through some training.
大概是通过一些训练。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But is it possible?
但这可能吗？
Is it within the realm of reality based on what we know about human genetics, that there could be genes that select for, say, rapid updating of visual scenes combined with short-term memory or whatever duration of memory is required that would afford certain people certain advantages in this based on inheritance that's then combined with training?
根据我们对人类遗传学的了解，是否存在现实领域中的基因，可以选择视觉场景的快速更新与短期记忆或任何需要的记忆持续时间相结合，从而为某些人提供基于遗传的某些优势，然后与训练相结合？
Much in the same way that the ability of the spleen to expand if you dive a lot and you happen to be born in one of these communities that we've been talking about.
这与如果你经常潜水并且恰好出生在我们一直在谈论的这些社区之一，脾脏的扩张能力非常相似。
Is that possible?
这可能吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think certainly there's an interesting correlation between people in STEM fields and having family members with autism.
我认为 STEM 领域的人与家庭成员患有自闭症之间确实存在着有趣的关联。
And so I was actually at a lecture in Princeton where the professor asked the incoming class of students, "How many of you have a family member with autism?" And then of those, and he displayed the statistics, "How many of you are joining the engineering department?" And it was much higher amongst the engineers.
事实上，我在普林斯顿大学的一次演讲中，教授问即将入学的学生，“你们中有多少人的家庭成员患有自闭症？”然后，他展示了统计数据，“你们中有多少人加入工程部门？”工程师中的这一比例要高得多。
And he explained that this can have to do with the fact that people on the spectrum tend to have an ability to hyperfocus, and the ability to really kind of narrow yourself to this one thing can make you a really good engineer.
他解释说，这可能与这个谱系的人往往具有高度专注的能力有关，而真正将自己缩小到这一点的能力可以让你成为一名真正优秀的工程师。
And so in that way, it's a huge advantage because it's allowing you to succeed in that field, depending, obviously, where you are on that spectrum and how that affects you in other ways.
因此，从这个角度来说，这是一个巨大的优势，因为它可以让你在这个领域取得成功，显然，这取决于你在这个领域的位置以及它如何以其他方式影响你。
And so if that in some way is giving you an advantage, why wouldn't it be selected for?
因此，如果这在某种程度上给你带来了优势，为什么不选择它呢？
Of course, there are other ways that it could be a disadvantage.
当然，还有其他方面可能会成为劣势。
Oliver Sacks, I think, wrote about how people with Tourette's may have faster processing speeds.
我认为奥利弗·萨克斯 (Oliver Sacks) 写过关于妥瑞氏症患者如何拥有更快的处理速度的文章。
And so again, maybe this is a place where that is advantageous despite the other disadvantages that might come along with having that syndrome.
再说一次，尽管患有这种综合症可能会带来其他缺点，但也许这是一个有利的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Huge Oliver Sacks fan here.
这里是奥利弗·萨克斯的超级粉丝。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
He's amazing.
他太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm sort of becoming a historian of him, an informal historian, and he also loved to spend much of his time underwater.
我有点成为他的历史学家，一个非正式的历史学家，他也喜欢把大部分时间花在水下。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Oh, did he?
哦，是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
I didn't know that.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He was an avid diver and-
他是一名狂热的潜水员并且——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
snorkeler and scuba diver, I think in part he said because it was so quiet down there.
浮潜和水肺潜水员，我想他这么说的部分原因是那里太安静了。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incidentally, he had prosopagnosia.
顺便说一句，他患有面部失认症。
He couldn't recognize faces.
他认不出面孔。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think I have that right.
我想我有这个权利。
I've known a few other people with that.
我认识其他一些人也有这样的经历。
And prosopagnosia, the inability to recognize faces, also seems to correlate with this, for lack of a better way to put it, kind of nerdy, quirky phenotype.
面部失认症，即无法识别面孔，似乎也与此相关，因为缺乏更好的方式来表达，这是一种书呆子、古怪的表型。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A former advisor of mine had this.
我的一位前顾问就有这样的经历。
Although in part I thought he told us that because then it gave him an out anytime-
虽然我部分认为他告诉了我们这一点，因为这样他就可以随时退出——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he couldn't remember somebody's name.
他记不起某人的名字。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It's a disorder.
这是一种疾病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a great thing to put forward-
提出这是一件伟大的事情——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if you can't remember people's names.
如果你记不住别人的名字。
No disrespect to the actually clinically diagnosed people-
没有对实际临床诊断的人不尊重的意思——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with prosopagnosia.
伴有面部失认症。
It gets you out of a lot of having to remember things.
它可以让你摆脱很多必须记住的事情。
Yeah, I find this fascinating because in this day and age of pathologizing everything-
是的，我觉得这很有趣，因为在当今这个一切都病态化的时代——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's interesting to take, as you just did, and I really appreciate taking a step back and saying, yes, there are instances where people on the spectrum, they need assisted living their entire lives.
就像你刚才所做的那样，这很有趣，我真的很高兴退后一步说，是的，在某些情况下，患有自闭症谱系障碍的人一生都需要帮助。
But there are also people who are living incredibly productive lives, even making incredibly enormous, meaningful, and uniquely meaningful contributions to society, who we would say are probably on the spectrum.
但也有一些人过着令人难以置信的富有成效的生活，甚至为社会做出了令人难以置信的巨大、有意义和独特的贡献，我们可以说他们可能属于这个范围。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so the question then becomes to what extent is it genetic?
那么问题就变成了它在多大程度上是遗传的？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To what extent is our genes driving a proclivity for numbers or a proclivity for engineering?
我们的基因在多大程度上驱动了数字倾向或工程倾向？
And on the opposite side, our great creatives, are they carrying a different set of genes?
另一方面，我们伟大的创意人员是否携带着一组不同的基因？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or are they just the ones that can't pay attention to anything, so they start throwing things together?
或者他们只是那些无法关注任何事情的人，所以他们开始把东西放在一起？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was a joke against the creatives.
这是对创意人员的一个玩笑。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It's interesting because it becomes a really difficult thing to test, because how do you measure creativity in a way that you could then link to genetic information?
这很有趣，因为它变得非常难以测试，因为如何以一种可以与遗传信息联系起来的方式来衡量创造力？
So a lot of these kinds of understandings of genes come from things called genome-wide association studies, where essentially they perform a correlation at every site in the genome to see which of these sites correlates statistically with whatever phenotype it is.
因此，对基因的许多此类理解都来自所谓的全基因组关联研究，本质上它们在基因组中的每个位点上进行相关性，以了解这些位点中的哪些位点与其表型在统计上相关。
So whether that's kidney disease or creativity.
所以无论是肾脏疾病还是创造力。
But you have to have a really good way of quantifying that trait.
但你必须有一种非常好的方法来量化这种特征。
So creativity is nearly impossible to quantify.
因此创造力几乎无法量化。
Something like mathematical ability, there's so many potential environmental nurture factors that could contribute to how that manifests in an individual, that it also becomes quite difficult to quantify, and therefore difficult to find any genetic factor that's contributing.
就像数学能力一样，有很多潜在的环境培养因素可能会影响个人的表现，因此也很难量化，因此很难找到任何起作用的遗传因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's so interesting how we classify intelligence, and some years back, there was a lot of debate about IQ versus emotional intelligence.
我们如何对智力进行分类非常有趣，几年前，关于智商与情商存在很多争论。
But there's this wonderful documentary, by the way, there's several movies by this title, but the one I'm thinking of is the documentary "Spellbound," which is about the spelling bee competition.
但有一部精彩的纪录片，顺便说一句，有几部电影同名，但我想到的是纪录片《Spellbound》，它是关于拼字比赛的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was the case for a long time that how well and how quickly Kids could remember to spell certain words was thought of as some important correlate of intelligence.
长期以来，孩子们记住拼写某些单词的能力和速度被认为是智力的重要相关因素。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is kind of crazy now in the day and age of autocorrect and things like that, but one could argue that being able to spell is an interesting one.
在自动更正之类的时代，这有点疯狂，但有人可能会说，能够拼写是一件有趣的事情。
But the different kids that they detail, one from a farming community, one from a community where the parents were really hard driving about academics, it tiles the entire representation of every kind of background you could imagine.
但他们详细描述的不同的孩子，一个来自农业社区，一个来自父母非常努力学习的社区，它覆盖了你能想象到的各种背景的全部表现。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Different types of parents, blue-collar parents, highly educated parents, boys, girls, one set that's clearly on the spectrum, and you see it in the family.
不同类型的父母，蓝领父母，受过高等教育的父母，男孩，女孩，一组明显在谱系上，你可以在家庭中看到它。
You can see that, and everything in between.
你可以看到这一点，以及介于两者之间的一切。
And what you come to realize is that training effects are very real.
你会发现，训练的效果是非常真实的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you take a kid in particular and you give them an activity and they repeat that activity-
如果你特别带一个孩子，给他们一项活动，然后他们重复该活动-
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
no surprise here, they get very good at that.
毫不奇怪，他们非常擅长这一点。
But it also narrows the number of things that they can also be good at.
但这也缩小了他们擅长的事情的数量。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is what I think we forget about neuroplasticity, is that the choice to get very good at one thing is also the choice to not get good at a bunch of other things.
我认为我们忘记了神经可塑性，即选择擅长一件事也是选择不擅长一堆其他事情。
So when you step back, and I'm not going to ask you for parenting advice, but when you step back and you think about what you know about human genetics, assuming one doesn't have to hunt for their food the way these populations you've been studying do, is there a kind of an optimal way to think about genetic bias and what we perhaps should focus on?
因此，当你退后一步，我不会向你寻求育儿建议，但当你退后一步，想想你对人类遗传学的了解时，假设人们不必像你一直在研究的这些人群那样寻找食物，是否有一种最佳方法来思考遗传偏见以及我们可能应该关注的问题？
Or are you an equal opportunity, get after whatever interests you the most kind of person?
或者你是一个机会均等、追求你最感兴趣的人吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
There's companies where you can test yourself to find out what kind of athlete you should be, and I think that-
有些公司可以让你测试自己，看看你应该成为什么样的运动员，我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
23s
23秒
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
...
...
kind of gets into something called genetic determinism-
有点像所谓的基因决定论——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
...
...
which is this idea that your genes determine everything about you.
这就是你的基因决定你的一切的想法。
Which we know isn't true.
我们知道这不是真的。
We know that it's a combination of genetic factors, environmental factors, all of these different things.
我们知道这是遗传因素、环境因素以及所有这些不同因素的结合。
But I think it's interesting how much the idea that we're genetically predisposed to something or we're genetically better at something can actually influence how we are at that thing.
但我认为有趣的是，我们在基因上倾向于某件事或我们在基因上更擅长某件事的想法实际上可以影响我们在这件事上的表现。
So we talked a little bit before about, there was a study where they told people, they said, "We're going to take your DNA.
所以我们之前谈过，有一项研究告诉人们，“我们要提取你的 DNA。
We're going to genotype you.
我们将对你进行基因分型。
We're going to find out whether if you train, you're going to get faster or whether it's not going to affect you at all." And so they did that, and they put people into these groups, and then they tested them after a few months.
我们将看看如果你训练，你是否会变得更快，或者是否根本不会影响你。”所以他们就这样做了，他们把人们分成这些小组，然后在几个月后对他们进行测试。
And the people who they told were going to do better, did better.
他们告诉那些要做得更好的人，确实做得更好。
And this was something they could measure at the biological level.
这是他们可以在生物学水平上测量的东西。
They could measure specific molecules that had changed in that population of people compared to the other group of people.
他们可以测量该人群与其他人群相比发生变化的特定分子。
Now, the trick was that there was no difference genetically between these groups.
现在，关键在于这些群体之间在基因上没有差异。
It was just what they were told.
这就是他们被告知的。
So it's really interesting to think about if you tell a child what they should or shouldn't do based on their genes, I think that's a really dangerous thing.
因此，考虑一下如果你根据孩子的基因告诉他们应该做什么或不应该做什么，这真的很有趣，我认为这是一件非常危险的事情。
Or potentially, you could motivate them through that.
或者你可以通过这个来激励他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interesting.
太有趣了。
I think mindset effects are so important, under-discussed.
我认为心态的影响非常重要，但尚未得到充分讨论。
I'm so glad this is coming up.
我很高兴这件事即将发生。
Ali Crum was a guest on this podcast, and she shared with us some incredible data on it.
Ali Crum 是这个播客的嘉宾，她与我们分享了一些令人难以置信的数据。
You tell people that stress is good for them, you stress them out, their health improves.
你告诉人们压力对他们有好处，你给他们压力，他们的健康就会改善。
You tell people stress is bad for them, and you stress them out, their health gets worse.
你告诉人们压力对他们有害，而你给他们施加压力，他们的健康就会变得更糟。
And on and on.
不断地。
There are just so many examples of these.
这样的例子太多了。
Most of the time, people aren't taking a genetic test to determine whether or not they're likely to be good or bad at something.
大多数时候，人们不会通过基因测试来确定他们在某件事上是否擅长或不擅长。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're looking at their family photos, or they're looking at their parents-
他们在看他们的家庭照片，或者他们在看他们的父母——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or their grandparents.
或他们的祖父母。
This is the old version of genetic information.
这是旧版本的遗传信息。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm guessing here, too, one should be very cautious.
我猜在这里，人们也应该非常谨慎。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If your parents weren't athletes, does that mean that you don't have the genes to be a great athlete?
如果你的父母不是运动员，这是否意味着你不具备成为一名伟大运动员的基因？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Clearly, the answer is no.
显然，答案是否定的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Likewise, for intellectual pursuits.
同样，对于智力追求。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
We really have very little evidence that intelligence is heritable.
我们确实没有什么证据表明智力是可遗传的。
So I think that's a big one, especially if you feel like you're not coming from a very intelligent family, that doesn't mean anything really, based on what we know currently.
所以我认为这是一个大问题，特别是如果你觉得自己不是来自一个非常聪明的家庭，那么根据我们目前所知，这并没有任何意义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about rhythm and dancing ability?
节奏感和舞蹈能力怎么样？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
I don't know, but I'll tell you, I did not inherit any rhythm from my dad.
我不知道，但我告诉你，我没有从我父亲那里继承任何节奏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't inherit any rhythm from my dad or my mom.
我没有从我爸爸或妈妈那里继承任何节奏。
Although my dad is a bit more musical by virtue of being more mathematical.
尽管我的父亲由于更擅长数学而更擅长音乐。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that is not the same thing as dancing ability.
但这与舞蹈能力不是一回事。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know if we have any truly bad dancers in our family- ...
我不知道我们家里是否有真正糟糕的舞者——...
but we have at least one with exceptional rhythm and ability.
但我们至少有一位具有非凡节奏和能力的人。
She happens to be adopted.
她碰巧是被收养的。
So there you go.
所以就这样吧。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a different version of genetic variation.
这是遗传变异的不同版本。
And an important one in the sense that it's a cross-fostering experiment-
从某种意义上说，这是一项重要的交叉培养实验——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to put it in animal laboratory terms.
用动物实验室的术语来说。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you don't mind, I'd like to talk about the ethics of genetics and genetic engineering.
如果你不介意的话，我想谈谈遗传学和基因工程的伦理问题。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A few years back, a guy in China running a laboratory used CRISPR to modify the genome of babies.
几年前，一个在中国经营实验室的人使用 CRISPR 来修改婴儿的基因组。
I believe he mutated the HIV receptor.
我相信他使艾滋病毒受体发生了突变。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I believe it wasn't to prevent them from contracting HIV under any circumstances, but rather the relationship between the HIV receptor and some things related to human memory.
我相信这并不是为了防止他们在任何情况下感染艾滋病毒，而是艾滋病毒受体和一些与人类记忆有关的东西之间的关系。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was the speculation.
这就是猜测。
There was very little known about this because this was happening in China in a kind of a closed format.
对此知之甚少，因为这在中国以一种封闭的形式发生。
It wasn't published in a peer-reviewed journal, but he showed up at a human genetics meeting, and he announced to the world that he had genetically modified babies through the use of genetic engineering.
它没有在同行评审的期刊上发表，但他出现在人类遗传学会议上，并向全世界宣布他通过使用基因工程对婴儿进行了基因改造。
Now, in the backdrop of this, up until now, we've basically been talking about genetic selection through partner selection, through all sorts of things, so that there are kind of indirect ways to genetically select.
现在，在这种背景下，到目前为止，我们基本上一直在通过伴侣选择，通过各种各样的事情来谈论基因选择，因此有一些间接的基因选择方法。
I think people forget that.
我认为人们忘记了这一点。
But here we're talking about deliberate gene insertion or removal-
但这里我们谈论的是故意的基因插入或删除——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in embryos, creating genetically modified humans.
在胚胎中，创造出转基因人类。
After he did that, there was a sort of pause, as I recall, I was paying very close attention to this, as to whether or not The international community of genetic ethicists and scientists would say, "Wow, this is potentially a feat of human engineering that could prevent disease," et cetera.
在他这样做之后，有一种停顿，我记得，我非常密切地关注这一点，至于国际遗传伦理学家和科学家是否会说，“哇，这可能是可以预防疾病的人类工程壮举，”等等。
Or they were going to chastise him, and it turned out they chastised him.
或者他们本来要惩罚他，结果他们惩罚了他。
And as it were, we were told that he was actually put into prison.
事实上，我们被告知他实际上被关进了监狱。
Now, whether or not that prison included a laboratory, we don't know.
现在，我们不知道该监狱是否设有实验室。
We have no idea.
我们不知道。
And there were a few other countries that chimed in and said, "Oh, yeah, programs like this have actually been underway elsewhere for a long time," and then it just went silent.
还有其他一些国家插话说：“哦，是的，这样的项目实际上在其他地方已经进行了很长时间，”然后就陷入了沉默。
Right now, the idea of the use of CRISPR to improve babies or to protect them against potential diseases is not commonplace, or if it is, it's not discussed.
目前，使用 CRISPR 来改善婴儿或保护他们免受潜在疾病的想法并不普遍，或者即使是，也没有被讨论。
What are your thoughts on the use of CRISPR to protect children from certain diseases?
您对使用 CRISPR 保护儿童免受某些疾病有何看法？
Let's just put it in that domain, and then, of course, we could talk about the misuse of this.
让我们把它放在那个域中，然后，当然，我们可以讨论它的滥用。
But you could think of parents who are maybe carrying a mutation.
但你可以想到可能携带突变的父母。
They don't want their kids to have Huntington's, for instance, and you could potentially fix that gene.
例如，他们不希望自己的孩子患有亨廷顿舞蹈症，而你有可能修复该基因。
So I'm just going to cast all of that out there to give that kind of backdrop and get your thoughts, and there's clearly no right or wrong answer here, but this is very likely to be a big topic in the upcoming decade.
因此，我将把所有这些内容都放在那里，以提供这种背景并了解您的想法，这里显然没有正确或错误的答案，但这很可能成为未来十年的一个大话题。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a really great question, and I think one without a very good answer at this point.
这是一个非常好的问题，我认为目前还没有一个很好的答案。
I think one of the things holding back this discussion up till now is that CRISPR is still a little bit of a blunt tool.
我认为迄今为止阻碍这一讨论的原因之一是 CRISPR 仍然是一个有点生硬的工具。
The way that we're applying it isn't as precise as we'd like it to be to do the kind of gene editing that you would need to protect babies in the way that you're describing.
我们应用它的方式并不像我们希望的那样精确，以进行您所描述的保护婴儿所需的基因编辑。
There are things like off-target effects, they say.
他们说，存在诸如脱靶效应之类的情况。
So, you're trying to edit one very specific part of the genome, but it ends up editing places that you didn't intend it to edit.
因此，您尝试编辑基因组的一个非常特定的部分，但最终会编辑您不希望编辑的位置。
So that's one of the issues, I think, technologically that-- I think if I remember right, when that happened, people were a little bit like, "That technology isn't ready to be used in that way yet." But of course, that's something that is changing really rapidly.
所以，我认为，从技术上来说，这就是问题之一——我想，如果我没记错的话，当这种情况发生时，人们有点像，“这项技术还没有准备好以这种方式使用。”但当然，这种情况正在迅速改变。
We're getting so much better at this.
我们在这方面做得越来越好。
We're able to do it successfully in lab animals.
我们能够在实验室动物身上成功地做到这一点。
And so yeah, ethically, I think it's also interesting to think about enhancement versus correction.
所以，是的，从道德上讲，我认为思考增强与纠正也很有趣。
At what point, where is the line between those two?
在什么时候，两者之间的界线在哪里？
So if we're correcting some kind of genetic defect, first of all, some defects, other people might not even see them as defects.
因此，如果我们要纠正某种遗传缺陷，首先是某些缺陷，其他人甚至可能不会将它们视为缺陷。
They might just see that as variation amongst humans.
他们可能只是将其视为人类之间的差异。
So, where is the line between defect, normal, enhanced?
那么，缺陷、正常、增强之间的界限在哪里？
I don't know who would make those decisions once the technology is even available to apply that in unborn children.
我不知道一旦技术可以应用于未出生的孩子，谁会做出这些决定。
Of course, it would be a dream to prevent disease using these technologies, but it's a slippery slope, maybe.
当然，利用这些技术预防疾病是一个梦想，但这也许是一个滑坡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, there's a lot of debate right now online about some of these companies that allow for a deep sequencing of embryos, in particular in cases of IVF.
是的，现在网上有很多关于其中一些允许对胚胎进行深度测序的公司的争论，特别是在体外受精的情况下。
There's a company, I believe it's called Orchid, up in the Bay Area that's kind of foremost in this, where typically for IVF, or even for a natural pregnancy, there'll be an analysis of is there trisomy, like extra chromosomes, which we know can lead to Down syndrome, et cetera.
有一家公司，我相信它叫兰花，在湾区，在这方面是最重要的，通常用于试管受精，甚至自然怀孕，都会分析是否存在三体性，比如额外的染色体，我们知道这会导致唐氏综合症等。
But these companies, for a price, offer deep sequencing of genes that correlate with, they're not causal in many cases, sometimes yes, but oftentimes correlate with potential spectrum phenotypes or things of that sort, cancer susceptibility, BRCA mutation.
但这些公司有偿提供基因深度测序，这些基因在很多情况下不是因果关系，有时是因果关系，但通常与潜在的谱表型或类似的事情、癌症易感性、BRCA 突变相关。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know several people, unfortunately, that died from cancer, and they carried BRCA mutations.
不幸的是，我认识几个人死于癌症，他们携带 BRCA 突变。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is real stuff.
所以这是真实的东西。
I think that the challenge for a lot of people is that as it stands now, it's very costly, so it sets up a scenario where wealthy people can afford to analyze embryos more vigorously than people who don't have the means to do it.
我认为很多人面临的挑战是，就目前情况而言，成本非常高，因此它设定了一个场景，即富人有能力比没有能力的人更积极地分析胚胎。
But if we look back 10, 20, 30 years, getting your whole genome sequenced in the early '90s, was it when Venter and those guys first nailed that ability?
但如果我们回顾 10 年、20 年、30 年，在 90 年代初对整个基因组进行测序，是在文特尔和那些人第一次掌握这种能力的时候吗？
Something like that.
类似的事情。
I'm just thinking '90s sometime.
我有时会想起 90 年代。
Okay, maybe I'm a little early, or a little late on that one, but it was extremely expensive.
好吧，也许我来得有点早，或者有点晚了，但它非常昂贵。
But now it's like, what, 100 bucks, or even free in some cases.
但现在就像，什么，100 美元，甚至在某些情况下免费。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, depending on the coverage.
是的，取决于覆盖范围。
Yeah, you can sequence a genome for pretty cheap these days.
是的，现在你可以非常便宜地对基因组进行测序。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So most technologies tend to advance that way.
所以大多数技术都倾向于以这种方式发展。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it gets back to also this issue of how much information do you want.
所以这又回到了你想要多少信息的问题。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I guess given your training and understanding of human genetics, there's obviously no one size fits all answer.
所以我想考虑到你对人类遗传学的训练和理解，显然没有一种放之四海而皆准的答案。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But when it comes to understanding how much control to exert over the genome-
但当涉及到对基因组施加多少控制时——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where do you land on this?
你在哪里找到这个答案？
I'm not trying to put you in the hot seat here.
我并不是想让你陷入困境。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think people are going to hear more about these technologies and just want to understand how to frame them.
我认为人们会更多地了解这些技术，只是想了解如何构建它们。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Well, first of all, for context, I only have dogs, so I don't have to think about this in terms of human babies.
嗯，首先，就背景而言，我只有狗，所以我不必从人类婴儿的角度来考虑这个问题。
But yeah, I think, say you get your baby's genome sequenced, and that baby's going to be blind.
但是，是的，我想，假设你对你的孩子的基因组进行了测序，那么那个孩子就会失明。
Is that a problem?
这是一个问题吗？
A lot of blind people would say no. So, I think it's such a personal question.
很多盲人都会说不。所以，我认为这是一个非常个人的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I think that's a great answer.
不，我认为这是一个很好的答案。
I think it's a really hard question to answer-
我觉得这是一个很难回答的问题——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for any of us.
对于我们任何人来说。
But I appreciate you being able to look at it and consider it.
但我很感激你能够看到并考虑它。
Dog genetics is-
狗的遗传学是——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
fascinating.
令人着迷的。
There, the selection seems to be for phenotype, but also behavioral type-
在那里，选择似乎是针对表型，但也是针对行为类型——
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is fascinating.
这很有趣。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
My fur babies were 100% selected to be cute, so
我的毛宝宝是100%被选中的可爱的，所以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was the basis?
这就是基础？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was the eye contact?
是眼神接触吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Actually, literally, one of my dogs is a type of dog that was bred to be a companion, so the only thing that they selected for was cuteness and companionship.
其实，从字面上看，我的一只狗是一种被饲养来作为伴侣的狗，所以他们选择的唯一目的就是可爱和陪伴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the Bolognese?
这是博洛尼亚？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yes, that's right.
是的，没错。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There is a dog named after the spaghetti sauce, or vice versa.
有一只狗以意大利面酱命名，反之亦然。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah, named after Bologna in Italy.
是的，以意大利博洛尼亚命名。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, right.
哦，对了。
No, I was joking.
不，我是在开玩笑。
Tell us what is the breed of dog?
请告诉我们狗是什么品种？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Bolognese.
博洛尼亚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's a mix between?
它是两者之间的混合？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
It's in the family of the Maltese, Bichon, Cotone family.
它属于马耳他、比熊、科托内家族。
So these little fluffy white dogs that are in Renaissance paintings sitting in the laps of royalty.
因此，文艺复兴时期绘画中的这些毛茸茸的小白狗坐在皇室的怀里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It strikes me that whether or not we're talking about Mendel's peas in the garden, whether or not we're talking about dogs, whether or not we're talking about corn varieties, or we're talking about humans, that for some reason, we like to underestimate the power that genes and natural selection have, and behavioral selection, I guess is the more appropriate term, right?
让我惊讶的是，无论我们是否在花园里谈论孟德尔豌豆，无论我们是否在谈论狗，无论我们是否在谈论玉米品种，或者我们是否在谈论人类，出于某种原因，我们喜欢低估基因和自然选择以及行为选择的力量，我想这是更合适的术语，对吗？
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm very curious about this concept of admixing.
我对混合这个概念很好奇。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you could explain what admixing is, and what I'm getting at here is probably the biggest question for me, which is, are we all really one species?
如果你能解释一下什么是混合，那么我在这里得到的可能就是我最大的问题，那就是，我们真的都是同一个物种吗？
I like the idea that we are all one collective consciousness and unity and peace on Earth.
我喜欢这样的想法：我们都是一个集体意识，地球上团结与和平。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
But really, in a serious sense, is Homo sapiens one species?
但从严肃的意义上来说，智人真的是一个物种吗？
There's a lot of genetic variation, and so if you could explain admixing, and if you're willing to go out on a limb and address whether or not there might be multiple species of primates walking around that we say, "Oh, that's a person," but they might be that much different than us.
遗传变异有很多，所以如果你能解释混合现象，如果你愿意冒险解决是否有多种灵长类动物在周围行走，我们会说，“哦，那是一个人”，但他们可能与我们有很大不同。
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Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So starting with admixture, admixture is just when different ancestry populations mix.
所以从混合开始，混合就是不同祖先群体的混合。
So it's this relative term because if we're all descended from one ancestral population, then maybe we all have one ancestry.
所以这是一个相对术语，因为如果我们都是同一个祖先群体的后裔，那么也许我们都有一个祖先。
But I always like to put it in the context of myself.
但我总是喜欢把它放在我自己的背景下。
So my dad is 100% Italian.
所以我爸爸是 100% 意大利人。
My mom's a mix of Northern European.
我妈妈是北欧混血。
I am an admixed individual, if you think about it that way.
如果你这样想的话，我是一个混合体。
And the reason that this is important in genetic studies is that if I claimed to be Italian and were included in a genetic study of Italians, the genetic variation that I have coming in from my mom's side would confuse that analysis.
这在基因研究中很重要的原因是，如果我声称自己是意大利人并被纳入意大利人的基因研究中，那么我从我妈妈那边传来的基因变异将会混淆该分析。
So admixture creates a ton of problems when we try to do genetic analyses.
因此，当我们尝试进行遗传分析时，混合会产生很多问题。
And so that's generally why we try to quantify it in genetics.
因此，这通常就是我们尝试在遗传学中对其进行量化的原因。
But yeah, it depends on what scale, because I'm 100% European, so in that way, I'm not admixed, if we're talking on the scale of continents.
但是，是的，这取决于什么规模，因为我是 100% 欧洲人，所以这样一来，如果我们谈论的是大陆的规模，我就不会混合。
So it becomes a blurry concept of admixture, depending on what level we're looking at.
因此，它变成了一个模糊的混合概念，具体取决于我们所关注的级别。
But as to your question of whether we are all one species, this is not the first time I've been asked this, especially given these, we call them superhuman populations, these people who have these extraordinary abilities, extraordinary physiology that makes them really good at what they do.
但至于你的问题，我们是否都是一个物种，这不是我第一次被问到这个问题，特别是考虑到这些人，我们称他们为超人类，这些人拥有非凡的能力，非凡的生理机能使他们真正擅长他们所做的事情。
I think the thing to keep in mind is that some of that variation can come from just a single base pair difference.
我认为要记住的是，其中一些变异可能仅来自单个碱基对差异。
A lot of times, it's multiple genetic changes that create the differences between individuals, but when you think about eye color, that's just one genetic variation, or genetic variant in some cases, like the case of blue eyes.
很多时候，是多种基因变化造成了个体之间的差异，但当你考虑眼睛颜色时，这只是一种基因变异，或者在某些情况下是基因变异，比如蓝眼睛的情况。
So you could be exactly the same as someone else, except for this one change out of 3.5 billion.
所以你可能和其他人一模一样，除了这 35 亿中的这一变化。
At what point do we need enough genetic diversity to call a group of humans a different species?
在什么时候我们需要足够的遗传多样性才能将一群人类称为不同的物种？
And I don't think that's something that we see anywhere on the planet that I know of.
据我所知，我认为我们在地球上的任何地方都没有看到过这种情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, this has been incredibly illuminating.
嗯，这非常有启发性。
I've learned so much, and I know everyone listening has as well.
我学到了很多东西，我知道每个聆听的人也学到了很多东西。
I don't think we've ever had a discussion about these topics on this podcast in a solo episode or guest episode.
我认为我们从未在该播客的独奏节目或客串节目中讨论过这些主题。
You're truly the first person to come on here and talk about human genetics.
您确实是第一个来到这里谈论人类遗传学的人。
And these incredible populations that you study are not only interesting in their own right, but they really shed light on the interplay between culture, selection, behavior, genetics, and basically what's possible in terms of human potential.
你研究的这些令人难以置信的种群不仅本身就很有趣，而且它们确实揭示了文化、选择、行为、遗传学之间的相互作用，以及人类潜力的基本可能性。
And they also have important relevance to human disease, as you mentioned with the hypoxia work.
正如您在缺氧工作中提到的那样，它们也与人类疾病具有重要的相关性。
And it also shines light on something that I don't think we can get enough of, which is the incredible things that humans are capable of in these very different populations that grew up and continue to exist in ways that are so different than us.
它还揭示了一些我认为我们还不够了解的事情，那就是人类在这些截然不同的人群中能够做出令人难以置信的事情，这些人群以与我们如此不同的方式成长并继续存在。
I think it can't help but turn the mirror on ourselves and ask ourselves, what are we doing in our daily lives behaviorally?
我想这不禁得把镜子转向自己，扪心自问，我们在日常生活中行为上都在做什么？
How might that be impacting our genes?
这会如何影响我们的基因？
And to start to speculate about that in constructive ways.
并开始以建设性的方式对此进行推测。
So I just really want to thank you for coming here today and sharing your knowledge, for the incredible work that you're doing.
因此，我真的要感谢您今天来到这里并分享您的知识，感谢您所做的令人难以置信的工作。
To be honest, I'm envious if I were ever going to do a sabbatical.
说实话，如果我能休假的话，我会很羡慕。
I don't think I'll ever have time to take the sabbatical that I've been accruing, but if I ever did, I'd love to study one of these incredible populations and try the free dive thing.
我认为我永远不会有时间享受我一直在积累的休假，但如果我有的话，我很乐意研究这些令人难以置信的人群之一并尝试自由潜水。
It's really wonderful work, and it's having a huge impact.
这确实是一件很棒的工作，而且产生了巨大的影响。
It's in the news often of As we'll put links to and recently as well.
它经常出现在新闻中，我们最近也会添加链接。
I'm not going to ask you what you're onto now and what's coming next, because we'll save that for a future installment.
我不会问你现在在做什么以及接下来会发生什么，因为我们会将其保存到未来的分期付款中。
But just want to really extend my gratitude and on behalf of myself and all the listeners, thank you so much for the work you do and for educating us.
但我只想真正表达我的谢意，并代表我自己和所有听众，非常感谢你们所做的工作和对我们的教育。
Dr. Melissa Ilardo:
梅丽莎·伊拉多博士：
Thank you so much for having me, and you're welcome in the field anytime.
非常感谢您邀请我，随时欢迎您来到现场。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
I'll take you up on that.
我会带你去解决这个问题。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Melissa Ilardo.
感谢您参加今天与 Melissa Ilardo 博士的讨论。
To learn more about her work, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关她的作品的更多信息，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Melissa Ilardo.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Melissa Ilardo 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 4:
演讲者4：
You want to impress them on a first date but also play it cool.
你想在第一次约会时给他们留下深刻的印象，但也要表现得冷静。
So what do you do?
那么你做什么呢？
I'm Ruthie Thorpe, and I wrote and read a real love story about a Hinge couple that navigated exactly that.
我是露丝·索普（Ruthie Thorpe），我写过并读过一个关于一对铰链夫妇的真实爱情故事，正是这样的故事。
Listen to the free audiobook now
立即收听免费有声读物