Asi Wind: What Magic & Mind Reading Reveal About the Brain

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Asi Wind.

今天我的嘉宾是阿西风。

Asi Wind is one of the top magicians and mentalists in the world.

阿西风是世界上最顶尖的魔法师和心灵师之一。

Now, you may be asking yourself, why would the Huberman Lab podcast host a magician mentalist?

现在，您可能会问自己，为什么休伯曼实验室播客要主持一位魔术师心灵师？

And the obvious answer, perhaps, would be that magicians and mentalists reveal to us where our gaps in perception reside.

显而易见的答案也许是魔术师和心灵学家向我们揭示了我们感知上的差距所在。

That is, where the human brain falters, such that magicians and mentalists can take advantage of that and give us the impression, the illusion, that certain things happened when they didn't.

也就是说，人类大脑动摇的地方，魔术师和心灵学家可以利用这一点，给我们留下这样的印象和错觉：某些事情发生了，而他们并没有发生。

However, during today's discussion, you will learn that Asi Wind's magic and mentalist work, which by the way, is absolutely astonishing.

然而，在今天的讨论中，你会了解到阿斯风的魔法和心灵主义作品，顺便说一句，这绝对是令人惊讶的。

You can see examples of this in some of the links in the show note captions that will take you to YouTube clips in which Asi did some of these tricks and mentalist work on me directly in the studio, and there are other examples out there that we've linked to on the internet as well.

您可以在节目注释标题中的一些链接中看到这方面的示例，这些链接将带您到 YouTube 剪辑，其中 Asi 直接在工作室中对我进行了一些技巧和心理治疗，并且我们还在互联网上链接到了其他示例。

That the work that Asi Wind does illustrates how we form memories, how we erase memories, and the specific things that we all can do in order to stamp down certain memories and to erase other memories.

阿西·温德所做的工作说明了我们如何形成记忆，如何删除记忆，以及我们所有人可以做的具体事情，以压垮某些记忆并删除其他记忆。

Indeed, much of what Asi Wind's work does is to use an understanding of how the brain works in order to create false memories, to erase recent memories, and indeed, to use emotion and empathy and storytelling in order for you, the observer, to create a perception of something that happened that may or may not have actually happened.

事实上，阿西·温德的大部分工作就是利用对大脑工作原理的理解来创造错误的记忆，消除最近的记忆，事实上，利用情感、同理心和讲故事，让观察者对所发生的事情产生一种感知，这些事情可能实际上发生过，也可能没有发生过。

Indeed, what Asi reveals to us today tells us not how a magician or mentalist fools us, but rather how we, with our own brains, lead ourselves to believe that certain things happened, when in fact, they may or may not have happened, and the way that we collaborate with others in order to create those either false or real perceptions.

事实上，阿西今天向我们揭示的并不是魔术师或心灵学家如何愚弄我们，而是我们如何用自己的大脑引导自己相信某些事情发生了，而事实上，它们可能发生也可能没有发生，以及我们如何与他人合作以创造那些虚假或真实的感知。

It's a discussion that I'm sure everyone, whether or not you're a fan of magic or not, will find fascinating.

我相信每个人，无论你是否是魔术迷，都会对这个讨论感兴趣。

Indeed, I learned so much from the discussion with Asi about neuroscience and about how the human brain constructs narratives of the past, present, and future, that it informs not just my understanding of how the brain works, but indeed how to learn better, how to remember things better, and to consolidate that information, to really stamp it into your memory so that you never forget.

事实上，我从与阿西关于神经科学以及人类大脑如何构建过去、现在和未来的叙述的讨论中学到了很多东西，它不仅让我了解大脑如何工作，而且让我了解如何更好地学习，如何更好地记住事情，并巩固这些信息，真正将其印入你的记忆中，这样你就永远不会忘记。

So while Asi Wind is a magician and mentalist, today's discussion is really a discussion about the neuroscience of how to learn, how to forget, how to access creativity, and how art and storytelling, empathy and emotion, all can allow us to access powers within us that make us far more effective in whatever pursuits we may be after.

因此，虽然阿西·温德是一位魔术师和心灵学家，但今天的讨论实际上是关于如何学习、如何忘记、如何获得创造力以及艺术和讲故事、同理心和情感如何让我们获得内在的力量的神经科学的讨论，这些力量使我们在追求任何追求时都更加有效。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Asi Wind.

现在是我与阿西温德的讨论。

Asi Wind, welcome.

阿西风，欢迎光临。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Thank you for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I can't tell you how excited I am to have you here today.

我无法告诉你今天你来到这里我有多兴奋。

I've seen you do your live shows twice, once in Los Angeles, once in New York, and both times there were three major effects.

我见过你做过两次现场表演，一次在洛杉矶，一次在纽约，两次都产生了三个主要效果。

First of all, I was absolutely astonished.

首先，我非常惊讶。

There's truly no hyperbole that can capture what you are capable of doing.

确实没有什么夸张的说法可以描述你的能力。

Just by way of example, folks, prior to coming in here, Asi agreed to do a trick.

举个例子，伙计们，在来这里之前，阿西同意做一个把戏。

He let me select a card, an ace of hearts from a deck of cards.

他让我从一副牌中选择一张牌，一张红桃 A。

I held it.

我拿着它。

There was another card, ace of diamonds.

还有另一张牌，方块A。

I also held that.

我也这么认为。

I looked at them.

我看着他们。

I turned them over in my hands.

我把它们翻到手里。

He's not touching them.

他没有碰它们。

He asked somebody in the room for a number, number, number.

他向房间里的某个人要了一个号码，号码，号码。

Everyone provides a number.

每个人都提供一个数字。

Then he asked me which person's number I would like to select.

然后他问我想选哪个人的号码。

There's no prior agreements or communication here whatsoever.

这里没有任何事先协议或沟通。

I selected the number seven.

我选择了数字七。

He says, "Turn over the cards," that are still in my hands.

他说，“把牌翻过来”，这些牌还在我手里。

He hasn't touched me.

他没有碰过我。

I turn over the cards, and now they are sevens, not aces.

我翻开牌，现在是 7，而不是 A。

Unbelievable, and yet it happened.

令人难以置信，但它确实发生了。

And that's but a minor example of the sorts of things that you do.

这只是您所做的各种事情的一个小例子。

So that's the first thing.

这是第一件事。

Absolutely astonishing.

绝对令人惊讶。

Two, you involve many of the senses, not just visual perception, memory, et cetera, but many of the senses and groups of people.

第二，你涉及到许多感官，不仅仅是视觉感知、记忆等等，还包括许多感官和人群。

You are able to somehow create perceptions in people, or perhaps these perceptions are accurate, that certain things have happened, and everyone agrees that these things happened.

你能够以某种方式在人们中创造感知，或者这些感知可能是准确的，某些事情已经发生，并且每个人都同意这些事情发生了。

So it's not just one person being, quote-unquote, tricked.

因此，被欺骗的不仅仅是一个人。

And then the third is that you and I both share a fascination with the human mind and perception, which is really one of the main reasons why you're here today, because you are a scientist who I believe understands how perception works, understands the gaps in perception and memory, and understands these things at a practical level that no neuroscientist, not I nor anyone else who could tell you about the nuts and bolts of the brain and nervous system, could ever approach.

第三，你和我都对人类思维和感知有着共同的迷恋，这确实是你今天在这里的主要原因之一，因为你是一位科学家，我相信你了解感知是如何工作的，了解感知和记忆的差距，并在实践层面上理解这些东西，这是任何神经科学家、我或其他任何能告诉你大脑和神经系统细节的人都无法达到的。

So welcome.

非常欢迎。

I'm super excited for our conversation, and my first question is when you do a trick with one person, with many people, how confident are you that you're going to get the answer correct?

我对我们的谈话感到非常兴奋，我的第一个问题是，当你与一个人或许多人一起表演魔术时，你对得到正确答案有多大信心？

Meaning, are you always operating at the level of 100% certainty that you're going to get it right?

意思是，你是否总是以 100% 确信自己会做对的程度来运作？

Or rather, is there a little bit of a gap?

或者说，有一点差距吗？

Are you running a 90% probability?

你跑的概率是90%吗？

And the reason I start with this question is that I think it's a very different situation when the mentalist, the magician ...

我从这个问题开始的原因是，我认为当心灵学家、魔术师……时，情况是非常不同的。

is certain it's going to work out as opposed to when it's not.

确定它会成功，而不是没有成功。

And I think it's the dynamic tension of the possibility that it might not work out that gets everyone so engrossed in what you do.

我认为，正是这种可能无法成功的动态张力才让每个人都如此全神贯注于你所做的事情。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

So first of all, a lot of people think, "Do you ever fail?

首先，很多人会想：“你失败过吗？

Do you ever get it wrong?" And the truth is, there's something they don't know.

你有没有听错过？”事实是，有些事情他们不知道。

We're going to reveal some secrets here.

我们将在这里揭示一些秘密。

A lot of people don't know that we are very much like jazz musicians.

很多人不知道我们很像爵士音乐家。

I'm not a musician.

我不是音乐家。

I'm going to probably butcher this analogy here, but we write the story as it goes.

我可能会在这里驳斥这个类比，但我们会按原样写故事。

In other words, you might see me do a trick and think that's what I do every day, but I don't.

换句话说，你可能会看到我表演一个把戏，并认为这就是我每天都会做的事情，但我没有。

So in other words, if something goes wrong, because every person is really unpredictable.

所以换句话来说，如果出了什么问题，因为每个人真的是不可预测的。

I say, "Take any card." Maybe I'm trying to make you take a certain card.

我说：“拿任意一张卡。”也许我想让你拿一张特定的牌。

Maybe I'm trying to influence you, and you're not going for it.

也许我想影响你，但你不肯这么做。

I'm okay with making a little detour.

我可以走一点弯路。

You just don't know I'm taking a detour, and I'm improvising, and I will go somewhere else, and I'm okay with that.

你只是不知道我在绕路，我在即兴发挥，我会去别的地方，我对此表示同意。

So a lot of the magic that I love to do, we call it jazzy magic, is magic that literally gets written as we go, but I'm the only one who knows it.

所以我喜欢做的很多魔术，我们称之为爵士魔术，都是边走边写的魔术，但我是唯一知道它的人。

And you go, "Wow, it concluded beautifully," right?

然后你会说，“哇，结局很漂亮，”对吧？

So there's some times when I, after a show, and I go, "Wow, this did not work, and that didn't work," and people will say, "What do you mean?

所以有时候，当我在一场演出结束后，我会说，“哇，这个不起作用，那个不起作用，”人们会说，“你是什么意思？

Everything worked perfect." They don't know.

一切都很完美。”他们不知道。

What I see is a little different than what you see.

我看到的和你看到的有点不同。

So in that sense, when you're an amateur magician, you're just starting out, and you don't have the experience, you can literally just get stuck and go, "Sorry.

所以从这个意义上说，当你是一名业余魔术师时，你才刚刚开始，而且你没有经验，你实际上可能会陷入困境，然后说：“抱歉。

Let's do it again." And it could happen, but for a seasoned performer, someone who does it again and again and again, I'll borrow from a Penn Jillette analogy that I love.

我们再做一次吧。”这可能会发生，但对于一个经验丰富的表演者，一个一次又一次地这样做的人，我会借用我喜欢的佩恩·吉列（Penn Jillette）的比喻。

It's like "Groundhog Day," the movie.

就像电影《土拨鼠之日》一样。

We get to relive the same night again and again and again.

我们一次又一次地重温同一个夜晚。

And guess what?

你猜怎么着？

People are very much alike.

人们非常相似。

I'll hear the same heckling, I'll hear the same thing, or I start to see types.

我会听到同样的质问，我会听到同样的事情，或者我开始看到类型。

This person's going to be confrontational.

这个人会很对抗。

This person is a person who believes maybe in supernatural.

这个人可能是一个相信超自然现象的人。

Everybody has a vibe.

每个人都有气势。

And even though I'm not a scientist, I'm not a psychologist, I don't have any degrees in any of those, but I'm a practitioner of psychology.

尽管我不是科学家，也不是心理学家，我没有任何这些学位，但我是心理学的实践者。

I try the same trick a million times, and I start to see patterns, behavioral patterns that I can use to my advantage.

我尝试同样的技巧一百万次，然后我开始看到可以为我带来优势的模式和行为模式。

Like, for example, I noticed that it's easier to fool smart people as opposed to people who are not so smart.

例如，我注意到愚弄聪明人比愚弄不那么聪明的人更容易。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Tell me more about that.

告诉我更多相关信息。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Because I'm relying on the bank of information you have in your head against you.

因为我依靠的是你脑子里的信息库来对抗你。

It's tai chi.

这是太极拳。

I know what you know, and I know that whenever you view anything, you have to fill in the blanks with lots of information.

我知道你知道什么，我知道每当你查看任何东西时，你都必须用大量信息来填补空白。

I show you a couple things, and you say, "Okay, this makes sense, this da, da, da." And I know how you think.

我向你展示了一些东西，然后你说：“好吧，这是有道理的，这个哒，哒，哒。”我知道你的想法。

And the fact that I have an idea of what you know and what you don't know, I can use it against you.

事实上，我知道你知道什么和不知道什么，我可以用它来对付你。

And that's a beautiful concept, right?

这是一个美丽的概念，对吧？

As opposed to someone who's not so educated, I don't know what he knows, and they tend to think very simple, and they're the ones to figure out magic the most because they don't fill in the blanks.

与那些没有受过多少教育的人相反，我不知道他知道什么，而且他们往往思考得很简单，他们是最能弄清楚魔法的人，因为他们不填补空白。

They take it for what it is.

他们接受它的本来面目。

You telling yourself a better story, you enriching the experience based on all this, the wealth of information you have about psychology and how this works, and how perception works, and how memory works.

你给自己讲了一个更好的故事，你丰富了基于这一切的体验，你拥有关于心理学及其如何运作、感知如何运作以及记忆如何运作的丰富信息。

For example, you just described a trick I did for you.

例如，你刚刚描述了我为你做的一个技巧。

You did not describe the trick.

你没有描述这个技巧。

You described your memory of that trick.

你描述了你对那招的记忆。

So my job, and I'm borrowing from my master, maestro Juan Tamariz, who's my favorite magician of all time, and I consider him-- We'll talk about him quite a bit now.

所以我的工作，我向我的大师胡安·塔马里斯（Juan Tamariz）借用，他是我一直以来最喜欢的魔术师，我考虑他 - 我们现在会谈论他很多。

He taught me so much, but he talks a lot about memory.

他教了我很多东西，但他谈到了很多关于记忆的内容。

First of all, we're encoding the information.

首先，我们对信息进行编码。

I give you something to encode.

我给你一些东西来编码。

Then I'm asking you to store it, either in short-term memory, medium-term, long-term, I don't know if it's even a real term, but a chemical memory, right?

然后我要求你把它存储在短期记忆、中期记忆、长期记忆中，我不知道它是否是一个真正的术语，而是一个化学记忆，对吧？

When it gets embedded in your memory.

当它融入你的记忆时。

And then I'm trying to manipulate how you're going to recall the experience.

然后我会尝试控制你回忆这段经历的方式。

And what you did, you described my trick in a way that I could never do.

而你所做的，你以一种我永远无法做到的方式描述了我的伎俩。

I wish I could perform the trick you just described.

我希望我能表演你刚才描述的技巧。

I can't.

我不能。

But I was trying to create at least the impression you recorded a feeling you had.

但我试图至少创造出你记录了你的感受的印象。

You did not record what you saw and experienced.

你没有记录你所看到的和经历的。

You recorded a feeling.

你记录了一种感觉。

It felt so amazing that the feeling was coded in the memory as well, and therefore, you were the co-author of that trick.

感觉太神奇了，这种感觉也被编码在记忆中，因此，你是这个技巧的共同作者。

You helped me fool you.

你帮我骗了你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm very curious about the role- ...

我对这个角色很好奇——

of emotion in the co-authoring of these tricks.

共同创作这些技巧时充满了情感。

And by the way, folks, the conversation we're having today is not just about magic tricks and mentalists.

顺便说一句，各位，我们今天的谈话不仅仅是关于魔术和通心术。

This occurs at the level of interactions between people, one-to-one.

这发生在人与人之间一对一的互动层面。

This occurs at the level of media to the general audience of the world.

这发生在面向世界普通受众的媒体层面。

This stuff scales at every level and in every domain of life.

这些东西可以扩展到生活的各个层面和各个领域。

We'll get to how exactly that occurs.

我们将了解这究竟是如何发生的。

I wonder if I could ask you about the reverse engineering of a trick, a hypothetical trick.

我想知道我是否可以向您询问有关一个技巧（一个假设的技巧）的逆向工程。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So tell me if this trick is possible, and if so, one of the possible ways that you would do this.

所以请告诉我这个技巧是否可行，如果可以，请告诉我您可能采取的方法之一。

I think I've seen you do something similar to this, or other mentalists do something similar to this.

我想我见过你做过类似的事情，或者其他心灵学家做过类似的事情。

You're standing in a room full of people, let's say 50 people, and you have a piece of paper and a pen, and you say, "Okay, I'm going to write down a series of numbers." And you write them down, and you fold it up.

你站在一个满是人的房间里，假设有 50 个人，你有一张纸和一支笔，你说：“好吧，我要写下一系列数字。”你把它们写下来，然后把它折叠起来。

You put it on a table next to you.

你把它放在你旁边的桌子上。

You set the pen down.

你放下笔。

There's no contact with it ...

和它没有任何联系...

anymore.

不再了。

And then you go around the room and you just ask people for numbers between one and 25.

然后你在房间里走一圈，然后问人们 1 到 25 之间的数字。

You ask a certain number of people, and then somehow you return to the paper, you open it up, and that's the sequence of numbers.

你问了一定数量的人，然后你以某种方式回到报纸上，打开它，这就是数字序列。

That it seems like a straightforward-

这似乎是一个简单的事情——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It is

它是

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but astonishing trick.

但却是惊人的伎俩。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's a classic.

这是一个经典。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A classic.

经典之作。

Okay.

好的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Classic of magic.

魔法经典。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For people like me, we want to know at least one solution to that challenge.

对于像我这样的人来说，我们想知道至少一种解决这一挑战的方法。

What's one way in which a magician could do that?

魔术师可以通过什么方式做到这一点？

Obviously, we start to go to the physical explanation.

显然，我们开始进行物理解释。

Okay, somebody underneath the table that the piece of paper was on wrote down the numbers they heard and put it on the table.

好吧，有人在这张纸所在的桌子下面写下他们听到的数字并将其放在桌子上。

Another solution would be that there was a stack of papers up there with any number of different combinations, but then it's a very large number, big stack of paper, then it becomes hard to hide, and on and on.

另一种解决方案是，那里有一叠纸，上面有任意数量的不同组合，但数量非常大，一大堆纸，然后就很难隐藏，如此下去。

All going in the wrong direction, of course.

当然，一切都朝着错误的方向发展。

I can also think of the end product way of doing this, where the piece of paper that you show has the numbers that the people stated, but somehow we think it's those numbers when it's actually other numbers.

我还可以想到执行此操作的最终产品方式，其中您展示的纸上有人们所说的数字，但不知何故，我们认为是这些数字，而实际上它是其他数字。

There's some sort of visual illusion that we all agree on seeing, but here I'm just guessing.

我们都同意看到某种视觉错觉，但我只是猜测。

So how could one do that trick?

那么如何才能做到这一点呢？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Wow!

哇！

We need two hours to dissect this one.

我们需要两个小时来剖析这个。

So here's the deal.

所以这就是交易。

I just noticed something as you were going through all the options, as someone, I assume you're not a magician.

当你经历所有的选择时，我刚刚注意到一些事情，作为一个人，我认为你不是魔术师。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No.

不。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

I just realized that a quality of magic is that it ignites your imagination and your creativity.

我刚刚意识到，魔法的一个特点是它能激发你的想象力和创造力。

You just basically saw something that has no explanation, and you're a knowledgeable guy.

你基本上只是看到了一些无法解释的东西，而你是一个知识渊博的人。

You know a lot about a lot of things.

你对很多事情了解很多。

And it, in a weird, in a good way, it bothers you.

它以一种奇怪的、以一种好的方式让你烦恼。

Why don't I know that answer?

为什么我不知道这个答案？

I know so much about the mind and how we sleep and how certain exercises affect our bodies and blah, blah, blah, but this series of number, I don't know.

我对心灵、我们如何睡眠以及某些锻炼如何影响我们的身体了解很多，但是这一系列的数字，我不知道。

And that drives you nuts a bit.

这让你有点抓狂。

But it's good, because then your mind starts racing.

但这很好，因为这样你的思维就开始飞速运转。

And in thinking of-- Everything you said is a wonderful exercise in problem-solving, right?

想想——你所说的一切都是解决问题的绝佳练习，对吧？

How could it be achieved?

如何才能实现呢？

And then you slowly rule them out as, too much paper, too much work.

然后你慢慢地排除它们，因为纸张太多，工作太多。

Hiring somebody under a table to write, maybe a solution, but you have to pay somebody just to do that job.

雇人在桌子底下写作，也许是一个解决方案，但你必须付钱给某人来做这项工作。

But it's nice because we're teasing the mind.

但这很好，因为我们正在戏弄思想。

We're challenging the mind in an era where it seems like all the information is out there.

在一个似乎所有信息都存在的时代，我们正在挑战人们的思维。

My smartphone can do more than my first computer could, right?

我的智能手机可以比我的第一台电脑做更多的事情，对吧？

In my pocket.

在我的口袋里。

So we are up against, and by the way, every time, I tell you this, it's a bit of a tangent here.

所以我们会反对，顺便说一句，每次我告诉你，这都有点离题。

Every time technology advances, magicians get scared, say, "Oh, people, where they can do all these marvelous things.

每当技术进步时，魔术师就会感到害怕，说：“哦，人们，他们可以做所有这些奇妙的事情。

How are they going to care about the number you just spoke or card changing in my hand?" And I attribute that to, again, your desire to see something marvelous.

他们怎么会关心你刚才说的号码或者我手里的牌换了？”我再次将其归因于你对看到奇妙事物的渴望。

By the way, there are people that don't want to see magic.

顺便说一下，有些人不想看到魔法。

I do something that really seems impossible, and they go, "Eh, slight of hand." They come up with a very simple solution.

我做了一些看似不可能的事情，他们却说：“呃，手脚太轻了。”他们想出了一个非常简单的解决方案。

They're not nitpicking about exactly how you did it.

他们不会挑剔你到底是如何做到的。

They go, "Oh, he's fast.

他们说：“哦，他速度很快。

He's fast with his hands." They come up with a very simple solution that I don't know why it satisfies them, but it does.

他的手很快。”他们提出了一个非常简单的解决方案，我不知道为什么它能让他们满意，但确实如此。

And it's because they lack the desire to see magic.

这是因为他们缺乏看到魔法的愿望。

So to me, again, and we're going back to the co-authoring, I really need someone, a partner, whenever I do magic, someone who has this desire to see something that's beautiful, that's going to bend the rules of what we know is possible, right?

所以对我来说，我们又回到了共同创作，每当我施展魔法时，我真的需要一个人，一个合作伙伴，一个渴望看到美丽事物的人，这将打破我们所知道的可能的规则，对吧？

And they're joining me.

他们正在加入我。

So to your question, how is it done?

那么对于你的问题，它是如何完成的？

There's many ways to achieve this effect.

有很多方法可以实现这种效果。

And because we don't possess, we can talk about this if you want, about the supernatural.

因为我们不拥有，所以如果你愿意，我们可以谈论这个，谈论超自然现象。

I don't believe that anybody possesses supernatural powers or even close to that.

我不相信任何人拥有超自然力量，甚至接近超自然力量。

And because of that, we have to cheat.

正因为如此，我们必须作弊。

We have to do some dirty work, which I don't want you to know about.

我们必须做一些肮脏的工作，我不想让你知道。

And so in other words, every trick that I do has a little scar, a moment I wish did not exist.

换句话说，我所做的每一个技巧都有一点伤痕，我希望那一刻不存在。

And by the way, a magician, when they choose a trick like that, they need to say, "Oh, I can go this route or this route." They're going to pay a price.

顺便说一句，魔术师，当他们选择这样的戏法时，他们需要说，“哦，我可以走这条路或这条路。”他们将付出代价。

With this version, "Oh, I cannot do it this way.

在这个版本中，“哦，我不能这样做。

Here, it's not as clean.

这里，不太干净。

Here, I cannot be as direct.

在这里，我不能这么直接。

Here, I have to choose maybe certain people in the audience." Again, I'm tiptoeing around it, so I don't reveal how it's done.

在这里，我可能必须选择观众中的某些人。”再说一次，我小心翼翼地绕过它，所以我没有透露它是如何完成的。

But you're making a sacrifice with every choice you make.

但你所做的每一个选择都在做出牺牲。

The goal is, at the end, to make somebody as smart as you go, "How?" And then start racing, and in the end, you reach a dead end, hopefully.

最终的目标是让某人变得像你一样聪明，“如何？”然后开始比赛，希望最后你会到达死胡同。

It's magic.

这很神奇。

You exhale.

你呼气。

And I enjoy this.

我很享受这个。

And I want you to surrender.

我要你投降。

And it's a good surrender.

这是一个很好的投降。

You're not being defeated.

你没有被打败。

You give in to this place where magic could happen.

你屈服于这个可能发生魔法的地方。

You make room for something that should not happen in this world to happen.

你为这个世界上不应该发生的事情的发生腾出了空间。

And that's why I love magic so much.

这就是我如此热爱魔法的原因。

It is a bit of a reminder that-- I'll tell you a story.

这有点提醒我——我会告诉你一个故事。

There is a juggler, who is not a magician, and I'm not going to mention names for a reason.

有一个杂耍者，他不是魔术师，出于某种原因我不会提及名字。

So he juggles on the streets and makes some money on the streets.

于是他就在街上变戏法，在街上赚点钱。

And one day, he goes to see a magic show And the magician, a wonderful magician, who does this wonderful act.

有一天，他去看一场魔术表演，魔术师，一位出色的魔术师，表演了这一精彩的表演。

It's the ZIP code act.

这是邮政编码法案。

He says to people, "Tell me your ZIP code," and then he tells them where they live.

他对人们说：“告诉我你的邮政编码”，然后他告诉他们住在哪里。

"Tell me where you live," he tells them the ZIP code.

“告诉我你住在哪里，”他告诉他们邮政编码。

And then he describes places around them.

然后他描述了他们周围的地方。

"Oh, you have a Starbucks there, and blah, blah." And he describes, it's amazing.

“哦，那里有一家星巴克，等等，等等。”他描述说，这太神奇了。

It's wonderful.

太棒了。

Now this juggler, not a magician, watches a magician who is doing a trick.

现在，这个杂耍者，而不是魔术师，正在观看魔术师表演魔术。

There's a scientific explanation to how it's done.

它是如何完成的有一个科学的解释。

It's not anything beyond that.

除此之外就没有什么了。

And again, it's wonderful.

再说一次，这太棒了。

And he goes, "How did he do that?" And then he comes up with the solution that the magician must have memorized all the ZIP codes in the world.

他问道：“他是怎么做到的？”然后他想出了解决办法：魔术师必须记住世界上所有的邮政编码。

Not the case, but that's the impression.

事实并非如此，但印象就是如此。

He goes home and starts memorizing all the ZIP codes in America first.

他回到家，首先开始记住美国所有的邮政编码。

He spends thousands of hours to memorize ZIP codes for real.

他花费了数千个小时来真正记住邮政编码。

He's doing the real version of what the magician did, and he performs it now all over the country.

他正在做魔术师所做的真实版本，现在他在全国各地表演。

He's doing the ZIP code act for real.

他真的在做邮政编码的事情。

And the beauty of this story is that a false performance, artificial presentation of a skill, inspired somebody to do something that is real, and therefore push his limits, his human, realistic limits, to a level that a lot of people go, "That's not possible." Right?

这个故事的美妙之处在于，虚假的表演、人为地展示一项技能，激励某人去做一些真实的事情，从而将他的极限、他的人性、现实的极限推向一个很多人都认为“这是不可能的”的水平。正确的？

And I think it's a beauty about this, and again, goes back to your question, how is it done?

我认为这很美妙，再次回到你的问题，它是如何完成的？

So maybe the solution you just came up with is better than what I do, but I at least ignited you to think about it.

所以也许你刚刚想出的解决方案比我所做的更好，但我至少激发了你的思考。

So it's really an important reason why I love magic so much.

所以这确实是我如此热爱魔法的一个重要原因。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Staying with my question of how a trick like that is done.

继续我的问题，这样的技巧是如何完成的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

You really want to know .

你真的很想知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I don't think you're actually going to tell me the specific order of operations to make it happen.

好吧，我认为您实际上不会告诉我实现这一目标的具体操作顺序。

I don't expect that.

我不希望这样。

But I can think of two kind of endpoints for exploring this.

但我可以想到两种探索这一点的端点。

Or at least two.

或者至少两个。

One is to manipulate what's on the paper.

一是操纵纸上的内容。

Right?

正确的？

The other is to manipulate what people say or are likely to say, perhaps by selecting people that are likely to say certain numbers because you have some understanding of that.

另一种是操纵人们所说或可能所说的话，也许是通过选择可能说出某些数字的人，因为你对此有一定的了解。

I don't know how that would happen.

我不知道那会如何发生。

The other is to completely revise people's understanding of what just happened in a group.

另一个是彻底改变人们对群体中刚刚发生的事情的理解。

And I think the last possibility is the one that intrigues me and most people the most.

我认为最后一种可能性是最让我和大多数人感兴趣的。

The idea that even in the company of other rational, well-rested, sober, meaning non-inebriated or on drugs, people, that-

这种想法是，即使是在其他理性的、休息良好的、清醒的（意思是不醉酒或吸毒的人）的陪伴下，——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Sometimes it helps

有时它会有所帮助

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

there could be a collective perception that is not accurate, but everyone agrees to confabulate together.

可能存在不准确的集体看法，但每个人都同意一起讨论。

And the reason I ask this and I focus on this third possibility is that we know that the memory system is a confabulation system.

我问这个问题并关注第三种可能性的原因是我们知道记忆系统是一个虚构系统。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A good example of this would be people who sadly have some form of dementia.

一个很好的例子就是不幸患有某种形式的痴呆症的人。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They often will find themselves in a room doing something, and if you ask them, "Hey, what were you doing?" They don't say, "I don't know." They say, "Oh, I came in here to do something." And they create these elaborate stories of what got them there, which may make sense to them, may not, but we all do this.

他们经常会发现自己在一个房间里做某事，如果你问他们，“嘿，你在做什么？”他们不会说：“我不知道。”他们说：“哦，我来这里是为了做点什么。”他们精心编造了这些故事，讲述他们的成长经历，这些故事对他们来说可能有意义，也可能没有，但我们都这样做。

We all confabulate.

我们都闲聊。

False memory is a huge topic into itself, but we all confabulate.

错误记忆本身就是一个很大的话题，但我们都会闲聊。

Memory is not perfect.

记忆并不完美。

So, I imagine this third possibility is one that you work with and that you massage.

所以，我想这第三种可能性是你工作和按摩的一种可能性。

How does one think about memory in the context of these experiments that, I just call them experiments, these tricks that you do.

人们如何在这些实验的背景下思考记忆，我只是称它们为实验，你所做的这些技巧。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

I like experiment.

我喜欢实验。

By the way, I love that word.

顺便说一句，我喜欢这个词。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And here, we agreed that we were going to talk about science today, as we always do whenever I see you.

在这里，我们同意今天要谈论科学，就像每次见到你时我们都会做的那样。

And in experiments, as people may or may not know, you ask a question, but you pose hypotheses.

在实验中，人们可能知道也可能不知道，你提出一个问题，但你提出假设。

So you say, like, "How do we cure cancer?" But then you pose a hypothesis.

所以你会说，“我们如何治愈癌症？”但随后你提出了一个假设。

You say, "I think it's going to be cured by doing blank, blank, and blank." And then you test that, and you try and rule out your hypothesis.

你说：“我认为通过空白、空白、空白可以治愈这个问题。”然后你测试一下，并尝试排除你的假设。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it's a little bit of why I call it an experiment.

这就是为什么我称其为实验的原因。

So for instance, is there a way that you can get people to believe that they saw the numbers, let's make it very simple, three, eight, and seven when in fact you held up a piece of paper that said something very different.

举例来说，有没有一种方法可以让人们相信他们看到了数字，让我们把它变得非常简单，三、八和七，而实际上你举着一张纸，上面写着非常不同的东西。

Have you done that before?

你以前这样做过吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

I see where you're going with this.

我明白你想做什么。

And I love that you used the word experiments.

我喜欢你使用“实验”这个词。

One of my heroes, Chan Canasta, was a psychologist who used psychology in his work, as a magician, as a mentalist, and he never called his pieces tricks or magic.

我的英雄之一，陈·卡纳斯塔（Chan Canasta）是一位心理学家，他在工作中运用了心理学，就像魔术师、心灵学家一样，他从不称自己的作品为戏法或魔法。

He called them experiments.

他称它们为实验。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

And he was careful about it.

他对此很小心。

It's not just an aesthetic choice.

这不仅仅是一种审美选择。

He wanted to plant this seed in their mind.

他想在他们心中种下这颗种子。

Experiment means it could fail, okay?

实验意味着它可能会失败，好吗？

Which is a very good starting point for any dramatic, because if something is going to work and-- But if there's something at stake, something could fail, people are more engaged.

对于任何戏剧性的事情来说，这都是一个非常好的起点，因为如果某件事能够成功，并且——但如果有某件事处于危险之中，某件事可能会失败，人们就会更加投入。

So I love the word.

所以我喜欢这个词。

I sometimes use the word, "Let's run an experiment."

我有时会用“让我们来做一个实验”这个词。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, it's like these crazy people that climb up the side of buildings with no ropes.

是的，就像这些疯狂的人不使用绳索就爬上建筑物的侧面。

We don't want to see them fall, but the possibility that they could fall is what's exciting.

我们不想看到它们倒下，但令人兴奋的是它们可能倒下的可能性。

The movie Free Solo.

电影《自由独奏》。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

With Alex Honnold.

与亚历克斯·霍诺德。

We all know at the beginning, he lives.

我们一开始就知道，他活着。

He lives, and yet you want to see it in case he Might not live.

他还活着，但你却想看看，以防他死了。

And even though you know he lives, in some ways, that's a magic trick-

即使你知道他还活着，在某些方面，这也是一个魔术——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

That's the-

那就是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

unto itself.

到它自己。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

That's the brilliance of David Blaine, who I consider one of my dearest friend and one of my favorite magicians in the world.

这就是大卫·布莱恩的才华，我认为他是我最亲密的朋友之一，也是世界上我最喜欢的魔术师之一。

And what he does, we can talk about him at length, but blending real stuff with magic, and sometimes it's hard to tell what is real and what's not.

至于他所做的事情，我们可以详细讨论他，但将真实的东西与魔法融合在一起，有时很难分辨什么是真实的，什么是不是。

And I even love that aspect.

我什至喜欢这个方面。

And a lot of people don't know, but all the stuff he does is real.

很多人不知道，但他所做的一切都是真实的。

When he's holding his breath night after night now in Vegas at the Wynn, 10 minutes.

当他现在在维加斯永利酒店每晚都屏住呼吸时，10 分钟。

And sitting in the audience watching David do that is so inspiring because I look at it symbolically.

坐在观众席上观看大卫的表演非常鼓舞人心，因为我象征性地看待它。

He's showing us, because he was inspired by a kid who survived being trapped under ice for a long time and recovered to full recovery.

他向我们展示，因为他受到了一个孩子的启发，这个孩子被困在冰下很长一段时间后幸存下来并完全康复。

And he goes, "If he can do it, then everybody could." And to me, the message is so strong, just beautiful.

他说：“如果他能做到，那么每个人都可以。”对我来说，这个信息是如此强烈，如此美丽。

Orient me again.

再次引导我。

The question was?

问题是？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

So the question is, have you done or is it possible-

所以问题是，你做到了吗或者有可能-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Oh

噢

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to get people to think that you're holding up a piece of paper that says, now I forget the numbers.

让人们认为你举着一张纸，上面写着，现在我忘记了数字。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Sure.

当然。

Sure.

当然。

Sure.

当然。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

My working memory wasn't engaged enough to do it.

我的工作记忆不够活跃，无法完成这项工作。

Whatever, 348, that's not what I said earlier, when in fact they are looking at a piece of paper that says something different.

不管怎样，348，这不是我之前所说的，事实上他们正在看一张纸，上面写着不同的东西。

Is that something that can be done?

这是可以做的事情吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

There's actually a piece where you have a piece of paper, literally printed piece of paper, and you control someone's mind.

实际上，你有一张纸，实际上是一张印刷的纸，你就可以控制某人的思想。

You say, "I'm going to make you see things distorted.

你说：“我会让你扭曲地看待事物。

You're not going to see reality the way everybody in this room, including me, will see it, starting now." And it's literally a piece of paper that says, "2 plus 2," and everybody can see it.

从现在开始，你将不会像这个房间里的每个人，包括我在内，那样看待现实。”它实际上是一张纸，上面写着“2 加 2”，每个人都可以看到它。

The entire audience can see it's 2 plus 2.

所有观众都可以看到这是2加2。

What's the answer?

答案是什么？

And he goes, "16." "Okay.

他说：“16。” “好吧。

And let's try something easier.

让我们尝试一些更简单的事情。

1 plus 1?" He goes, "24." And this guy is cognitively smart, sharp.

1加1？”他说：“24。”这家伙认知能力很聪明，很敏锐。

He's not on drugs.

他没有吸毒。

He cannot answer those questions.

他无法回答这些问题。

It's an augmentation of reality, and that manifests in many forms in magic.

这是对现实的增强，并以多种形式体现在魔法中。

The idea of seeing something that is in a sort, in the optical illusion land of what you see is not what you see.

在你所看到的视幻境中看到某种东西的想法并不是你所看到的。

And that's probably applicable to every trick you'll ever see.

这可能适用于你见过的每一个技巧。

What you see is not what you see.

你所看到的并不是你所看到的。

It's what I want you to see.

这就是我想让你看到的。

And I love that.

我喜欢这样。

And again, the Chan Canasta guy I spoke to you about, he would take three cards, let's say ace of hearts, king of clubs, seven of spades, three cards.

再说一次，我和你谈到的陈·卡纳斯塔（Chan Canasta）那个人，他会拿三张牌，比如说红心 A、梅花 K、黑桃 7，三张牌。

He'll go to a coffee shop and say, "Choose one." And they say, "King of clubs." "Thank you." Go to another table.

他会去一家咖啡店并说：“选择一个。”他们说，“俱乐部之王”。 “谢谢。”去另一张桌子。

And he will do it all night.

他会整晚都这么做。

And people, "What is he doing?" He's not doing any magic to them, nothing.

人们会问：“他在做什么？”他没有对他们施展任何魔法，什么都没有。

He's just surveying the audience to see how they think, right?

他只是在调查观众，看看他们是怎么想的，对吧？

And this is information that we collect, over the years.

这是我们多年来收集的信息。

There's something called, I can influence you, let's say, to take a specific card, but it has to be done in such a way that it feels like it was a free choice.

有一种东西叫做，我可以影响你，比如说，拿一张特定的牌，但它必须以一种感觉像是一个自由选择的方式完成。

It was not a free choice.

这不是一个自由的选择。

And the difference between a good or a great magician and a decent magician or an okay magician is that one makes you feel like, "I chose this card.

优秀或伟大的魔术师与体面的魔术师或还不错的魔术师之间的区别在于，他们会让你感觉，“我选择了这张牌。

There is no way you made me pick this card.

你不可能让我选这张卡。

There is no way." And that's a sort of augmentation.

没有办法。”这是一种增强。

It's you feel like you have control, and yet you don't.

你感觉自己有控制权，但实际上却没有。

And you feel it with conviction.

你会坚定地感受到这一点。

You could swear, "Are you sure that's the one?" So there's a famous thing that he used to do.

你可以发誓：“你确定就是那个吗？”所以他曾经做过一件著名的事情。

He would say, "I can make people change their mind or not." And he says it upfront.

他会说：“我可以让人们改变主意，也可以不改变主意。”他预先就说了。

He says, "You're going to choose a card, okay?

他说：“你要选择一张卡，好吗？

Any card you like.

任何你喜欢的卡。

I'll go to the audience.

我要去观众席。

You point to any person you want.

你可以指着任何你想要的人。

They'll choose another card.

他们会选择另一张卡。

Whatever they choose will be the card you're thinking of.

无论他们选择什么，都将是您想到的卡。

And then I'll give them 10 seconds to change their mind.

然后我会给他们 10 秒钟的时间来改变主意。

And if they do, it will still be correct.

即使他们这样做了，它仍然是正确的。

They can change their mind as many times as they want, and I don't care.

他们可以随心所欲地改变主意，而我不在乎。

Once they say, 'That's it, that's the card,' that will be the card you're thinking of."

一旦他们说，‘就是这样，就是这张卡’，那张卡就会成为你想到的。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How can that be?

怎么可能呢？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So the truth is, and I'll reveal a little bit about that, there is no trickery here as far as sleight of hand or anything like that.

所以事实是，我将透露一些关于这一点的信息，就花招或类似的事情而言，这里不存在任何诡计。

He literally was a master at making people either want to stick to a decision or change it.

他确实是一个让人们坚持或改变决定的大师。

He would basically manipulate their insecurity, their ego, something about them to either resist changing or to really want to change.

他基本上会操纵他们的不安全感、他们的自我以及他们身上的某些东西，要么抵制改变，要么真正想要改变。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

And to me, and I have a conflict, a dilemma about this because my whole Fool Us act, which if you want, we can talk about, is really based on this conflict or this problem I have.

对我来说，我对此有一个冲突，一个困境，因为我的整个《愚弄我们》行为，如果你愿意的话，我们可以谈论，实际上是基于这个冲突或我遇到的这个问题。

Sometimes the method is way more beautiful than the effect itself.

有时候方法比效果本身更漂亮。

So that's why I have no problem telling that Chan did that.

所以这就是为什么我可以毫不犹豫地告诉陈是这么做的。

Chan found a way with using specific language or gestures or whatnot, without revealing too much, to make somebody either stick to their choice or change their mind.

陈找到了一种方法，使用特定的语言或手势或诸如此类的东西，而不透露太多，让人们要么坚持他们的选择，要么改变他们的想法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He could literally control their bias toward one or the other.

他确实可以控制他们对其中之一的偏见。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Does it involve touching their body in any particular way?

是否涉及以任何特定方式触摸他们的身体？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Maybe.

也许吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe.

也许吧。

Yeah.

是的。

Many times in your performances and the performances of other mentalists and magicians, they will say, "Pick a number," or, "Pick a card," and then right before the trick is about to advance, they'll say, "Are you sure?

很多时候，在你的表演以及其他心灵师和魔术师的表演中，他们会说，“选择一个数字”，或者“选择一张牌”，然后在魔术即将进行之前，他们会说，“你确定吗？

Okay."

好吧。”

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Oh, that's a big one.

噢，那是一件大事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And they'll say, "Yes, I'm sure," or, "No, I'm going to switch." Okay.

他们会说，“是的，我确定”，或者，“不，我要换。”好的。

And based on what you've told us already, it's clear that the skilled mentalist or magician can work with either scenario.

根据您已经告诉我们的内容，很明显，熟练的心灵学家或魔术师可以处理这两种情况。

Maybe it's the improvisation.

也许这就是即兴创作。

But what I want to know is, when you look at somebody's physical body, how they sit, their shape, and other features, maybe how they dress, how they stand, maybe something about their eyes or their face, can you make better predictions as to what sorts of numbers they'll pick, whether or not they're going to stick to their choice or-

但我想知道的是，当你观察某人的身体、他们的坐姿、体形和其他特征，也许他们的穿着、他们的站立方式，也许他们的眼睛或脸部的一些信息时，你能否更好地预测他们会选择什么样的数字，他们是否会坚持自己的选择，或者——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Absolutely

绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

change their choice?

改变他们的选择？

Okay.

好的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

100%.

100%。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think there's a lot of interest in this, and maybe you could, since we're talking in generic terms, and we're not presenting you with a line of people and asking you which person would do what, would you be willing to share what some of those cues are?

我认为大家对此很感兴趣，也许你可以，因为我们谈论的是通用术语，我们不会向你展示一排人并询问你哪个人会做什么，你愿意分享其中一些线索吗？

So me, I wear this black shirt, and I have other shirts, but I don't wear them on camera.

所以我，我穿这件黑色衬衫，还有其他衬衫，但我不会在镜头前穿着它们。

And I comb my hair a certain way.

我以某种方式梳理头发。

I sit a certain way.

我以某种方式坐着。

What sorts of predictions emerge from that?

由此得出什么样的预测？

Or am I striking on the wrong variables?

或者我是否发现了错误的变量？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So it's not the big things that will reveal to me what-- Because I do kind of profile a little bit for the magic purposes.

所以这并不是什么大事会向我揭示什么——因为我确实出于神奇的目的进行了一些侧写。

What kind of trick I will do with you, and what I can't do with you, what I will do with this guy or that guy, right?

我会对你做什么，不能对你做什么，对这个人或那个人做什么，对吗？

And it's not the shirt.

而且这不是衬衫。

It's not how you wear your hair.

这不是你如何打理头发的问题。

It's really small things.

这确实是小事。

And I can talk about many people that influenced me.

我可以谈论很多影响我的人。

Avner The Eccentric is one of my favorite performers.

Avner The Eccentric 是我最喜欢的表演者之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

His name is literally The Eccentric?

他的名字字面意思是“怪人”？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's a different name, but he goes by Avner The Eccentric.

这是一个不同的名字，但他的名字是“怪人阿夫纳”。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

And he's a wonderful performer.

他是一位出色的表演者。

It's even hard to categorize what he does, but he's, I'm doing a disservice, a clown, a mime, a juggler, a magician, and I've never seen someone who's better at what we call audience management.

甚至很难对他所做的事情进行分类，但他是，我在做坏事，一个小丑，一个哑剧，一个杂耍演员，一个魔术师，而我从未见过有人比我们所谓的观众管理更擅长。

There's something we call audience management.

有一种东西我们称之为受众管理。

Is how do you interact with people?

是你如何与人交往？

And he's able to get, again, I'm butchering his class to something very simple, but he gets three yeses from a person.

他能够再一次得到，我正在把他的班级屠杀成一些非常简单的东西，但他从一个人那里得到了三个“是”。

Meaning, I can ask you non-verbally to agree to participate with something I want you to do.

意思是，我可以通过非口头方式要求您同意参与我希望您做的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

And he will do small things, like just a little gesture, and he can see if they go for it.

他会做一些小事，比如一个小动作，他就能看看他们是否愿意这样做。

He sees if there's that dance.

他看看是否有那种舞蹈。

Is that person complying to something very small, or is he resisting?

这个人是在遵守一些很小的事情，还是在反抗？

And then easily I can go to the next person.

然后我就可以轻松地去找下一个人。

And he's a master at doing that.

他是这方面的高手。

Even breathing.

甚至呼吸。

If I breathe a certain way, it blew my mind when I first learned from Avner.

如果我以某种方式呼吸，当我第一次向阿夫纳学习时，它让我大吃一惊。

It's like when you walk into a place.

就像你走进一个地方一样。

So you don't see me, I'm behind a curtain, something, and I walk in, and the first thing I do is or as opposed to .

所以你看不到我，我在窗帘后面，什么东西，然后我走进去，我做的第一件事是 或 与 相对。

Do I take the breath in or out the first step I take on stage?

我在舞台上迈出第一步时是吸气还是呼气？

And the audience, in a weird way, mimics that.

观众以一种奇怪的方式模仿这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really?

真的吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

So if I go you feel, you kind of tend to relax with me.

所以如果我去的话你会觉得和我在一起你会放松一些。

Now, if you want a more exaggerated example of that, if you watch a movie and it's really tense and there's tension, you will start feeling tension, right?

现在，如果你想要一个更夸张的例子，如果你看一部电影，它真的很紧张，而且有紧张感，你就会开始感到紧张，对吗？

We're kind of like empathy is a big part of what we do.

我们认为同理心是我们工作的重要组成部分。

That's why one of the things I choose to do in my show when I first start is not to start with the most amazing magic to blow your mind, "Oh my God, he's amazing." I gear the first pieces towards connecting with you.

这就是为什么我在第一次开始表演时选择做的一件事不是以最令人惊叹的魔术开始让你大吃一惊，“天哪，他太棒了。”我的第一部分是为了与你建立联系。

I'd rather say something really endearing, funny, connecting, truthful, honest, before I start trying to blow your mind.

在我开始让你大吃一惊之前，我宁愿先说一些真正可爱、有​​趣、有联系、真实、诚实的话。

Why?

为什么？

I want to connect with you first so we-- A mother will be proud of her sons playing guitar and much more forgiving if he makes a little mistake or something, but every little achievement he will make, she will be so proud of him because she has empathy.

我想先和你联系，这样我们——一位母亲会为她的儿子弹吉他而感到自豪，如果他犯了一点错误或其他什么事情，她会更加宽容，但他取得的每一个小成就，她都会为他感到骄傲，因为她有同理心。

She wants him to succeed.

她希望他成功。

She wants him to do well.

她希望他过得好。

So I want you to adopt me.

所以我希望你收养我。

I want you to feel empathy towards me.

我希望你对我有同理心。

I'm rooting for you.

我支持你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This makes a lot of sense.

这很有意义。

I do some live events, and I don't think about whether or not I exhale or inhale when I get out there.

我做一些现场活动，当我出去时，我不会考虑我是呼气还是吸气。

But I definitely try and get out there and just take it all in and relax, and we have what I hope is a relaxing, interesting conversation, and you kind of work with the amplitude of excitement.

但我肯定会尝试走出去，全神贯注并放松，我希望我们进行一次轻松、有趣的谈话，你会带着兴奋的心情工作。

And I'm not thinking about it in any kind of conscious way, but this is actually a wonderful tool that I hope everyone will export from this conversation, which is if you ever need to do public speaking-

我并没有以任何有意识的方式思考它，但这实际上是一个很棒的工具，我希望每个人都能从这次对话中导出，如果你需要进行公开演讲的话-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Breathe

呼吸

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

have probably a good long exhale as you get out there will be great.

当你出去时，可能会长长地呼气，那会很棒。

Everyone will relax.

大家都会放松下来。

It's also tough for me to see live theater because oftentimes if it's not going well for them, I feel embarrassed for them.

对我来说看现场戏剧也很困难，因为很多时候如果他们进展不顺利，我会为他们感到尴尬。

I think people vary, however, in terms of their levels of empathic attunement.

然而，我认为人们的共情协调程度各不相同。

Some people are very tuned into the emotional states of others-

有些人非常了解别人的情绪状态——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and some are not.

有些则不然。

So are there people in audiences, assuming a relatively random array of people, that are fairly rigid, like you wouldn't call them up to the-

那么观众中是否有一些人，假设是相对随机的一群人，他们相当僵化，就像你不会称他们为-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Absolutely

绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

table?

表？

Okay.

好的。

So when you select someone to come up in front of a crowd Are you basing that on some level of empathic attunement, that they're in sync with you?

因此，当你选择某人出现在人群面前时，你是否基于某种程度的移情协调，即他们与你同步？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

So it starts with the first thing.

所以从第一件事开始。

Look, you come in cold.

瞧，你进来的时候很冷。

The audience, as you said, the first, I'm quoting Aviv here, the first thing they do is they say, "I hope this doesn't suck." And also the performer says, "I hope it's not going to suck." The starting point is, it depends, expectation could vary, if something's really hyped, you can go, "Oh, this is going to be great," or you've seen the artist and you trust them.

观众，正如你所说，首先，我在这里引用阿维夫的话，他们做的第一件事就是说，“我希望这不会很糟糕。”表演者还说：“我希望它不会很糟糕。”出发点是，视情况而定，期望可能会有所不同，如果某件事真的被炒作了，你可以说，“哦，这会很棒”，或者你已经见过艺术家并且信任他们。

But if you come in cold, you don't know the person, you don't know if it's going to be great or not, you just happen to be there, and there's a magic show.

但如果你冷冷地进来，你不认识那个人，你不知道它是否会很棒，你只是碰巧在那里，有一场魔术表演。

"Ah, let's check it out." There's tension.

“啊，我们去看看吧。”有紧张感。

There's almost like they're auditioning you.

就像他们正在试镜你一样。

I wonder if it's going to be worth my time.

我想知道这是否值得我花时间。

So, and I don't care if people bought a ticket to see my off-Broadway show or not, the first 10, 15 minutes, it's really about telling them in so many, without words, but telling them, "I'm here for you.

所以，我不在乎人们是否买了票来观看我的外百老汇演出，前 10、15 分钟，实际上是用很多语言告诉他们，但告诉他们，“我在这里为你服务。

I'm here to connect with you, and I'm here to create some wonderful thing that we're going to feel together." I want them to feel that.

我来这里是为了与你们联系，我来这里是为了创造一些我们将共同感受到的美妙事物。”我希望他们能感受到这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like an intimacy.

这就像一种亲密关系。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

And that to me, by the way, is way more important than me fooling people.

顺便说一句，这对我来说比愚弄别人更重要。

Like, if somebody came to me after a show and said, "Oh, wow, your magic is unbelievable.

就像，如果有人在演出结束后来找我说：“哦，哇，你的魔力令人难以置信。

I have no idea how you did it," that's the lowest compliment I can get.

我不知道你是怎么做到的。”这是我能得到的最低的赞美。

And thankfully and gratefully, often I get the most common one is, "The magic was great, but we liked you."

值得庆幸的是，我经常听到最常见的一句话是，“魔法很棒，但我们喜欢你。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They feel connected to you.

他们感觉与你有联系。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

And I love that because, to me, the magic is important.

我喜欢这一点，因为对我来说，魔法很重要。

I want it to be really deceptive.

我希望它真的具有欺骗性。

I want it to be impossible and beautiful and whatnot.

我希望它是不可能的、美丽的等等。

But to me, it's also a vehicle to connect with people because at the end of the day, that's what it is.

但对我来说，它也是一种与人们联系的工具，因为归根结底，它就是这样。

And that's the only difference I can have, because there's a lot of magicians.

这是我能拥有的唯一区别，因为有很多魔术师。

A lot of people can do magic that you can't figure out.

很多人都能施展你无法想象的魔法。

That's the lowest bar.

那是最低的酒吧。

You fool me, good magician.

你骗了我，好魔术师。

Make me feel magic, higher, and maybe feel magic and connect.

让我感到神奇、更高尚，也许还能感受到神奇和联系。

It's like if somebody cannot even explain what I did in my show and goes, "You had to be there." That's something Steve Martin says all the time.

这就好像有人甚至无法解释我在节目中做了什么，然后说：“你必须在那里。”这是史蒂夫·马丁经常说的话。

"You had to be there." I can't tell you with words what it's like to see his show.

“你必须在那里。”我无法用言语告诉你看他的演出是什么感觉。

You have to see it in person.

你必须亲自去看看。

That to me is a very high goal of...

对我来说这是一个非常高的目标...

I want them to remember the experience and the feeling rather than particularly, "Oh, the knot." I want them to care about what they experienced emotionally.

我希望他们记住这种经历和感觉，而不是特别记住“哦，结”。我希望他们关心自己的情感经历。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that's how I recalled the trick that you did outside.

于是我就想起了你在外面玩的把戏。

The person who initially connected us, just absolutely terrific, what I call close contact card magician, Franco Pascale-

最初联系我们的人，非常棒，我称之为亲密接触卡片魔术师，Franco Pascale-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

here in Los Angeles.

在洛杉矶这里。

He has amazing card skills.

他拥有惊人的卡牌技巧。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Amazing.

太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He does something with his card tricks I noticed.

我注意到他用纸牌戏法做了一些事情。

I'll go to the Magic Castle as often as possible, and I just watch and like to take this in, and I try and think about the neuroscience behind it-

我会尽可能多地去魔法城堡，我只是观看并喜欢接受这一点，我尝试思考其背后的神经科学 -

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Sure

当然可以

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

as you can tell.

正如你所知。

And when he lands a trick, meaning when the person takes the card and says, "Oh my goodness, how did you know?" Or it's like the ace, switches the card, whatever it is, Franco also acts surprised.

当他完成一墩牌时，意思是当那个人拿起牌说：“天哪，你怎么知道？”或者就像王牌，换牌，无论是什么，佛朗哥也表现得很惊讶。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He joins you as an audience member momentarily.

他会立即作为观众加入您的行列。

He goes, "Oh." And then he goes back to being the magician.

他说：“哦。”然后他又变回了魔术师。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I find that especially important for people to understand, because you do the same.

我发现理解这一点对于人们来说尤其重要，因为你也在做同样的事情。

And I always say, having studied the lectures of many, many spectacular scientists and lecturers, that the best lecturers in the classroom obviously are teaching the material from a place of deep understanding of the material, one would hope, right?

我总是说，在研究了许多杰出科学家和讲师的讲座后，人们希望课堂上最好的讲师显然是从对材料有深刻理解的地方来教授材料的，对吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So they have mastery of the material, in some case, virtuosity with the material.

所以他们掌握了材料，在某些情况下，对材料有精湛的技艺。

But as they're presenting the material to people who know nothing about it, they themselves are showing their delight in the material as if it's the first time they've ever seen it.

但当他们向对此一无所知的人展示这些材料时，他们自己也表现出了对这些材料的喜悦，就好像这是他们第一次看到它一样。

And so they are both student and teacher at the same time, and you feel immense resonance with them.

所以他们同时是学生和老师，你会和他们产生巨大的共鸣。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's nice.

很好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it reminds me of the experience of seeing you do magic or mentalist work.

这让我想起了看到你表演魔术或心灵术的经历。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm yet to see you go, "Oh my goodness," but I think it's the sense that you're collaborating in something, and there's this giving over of self, like I trust Oz to take me someplace with this.

我还没有看到你离开，“哦，天哪，”但我认为这是一种你在某件事上合作的感觉，并且有一种自我的放弃，就像我相信奥兹会带我去某个地方。

So the resistant people, the people that sort of like, "I'm not going to let him fool me"-

所以那些有抵抗力的人，那些喜欢说“我不会让他愚弄我”的人——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

right?

对吗？

What's so amazing is that in your shows, oftentimes those people are the ones walking out just shaking their heads.

令人惊奇的是，在你的节目中，通常那些人只是摇头而走开。

I know because I've brought some of them along to your shows, going, "There's no way.

我知道，因为我把他们中的一些人带到了你们的演出中，说道：“没办法。

There's no way." And yet you got them.

没有办法。”但你还是得到了它们。

So do the resistant people serve a role even if they're not called up?

那么，即使没有被征召，那些抵抗的人也会发挥作用吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Of course.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

What role do skeptics play in convincing other people that something happened that didn't really happen?

怀疑论者在让其他人相信发生了一些实际上并没有发生的事情时扮演什么角色？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So first of all, the transformation, let's say somebody's a believer, and you show magic, and nice, it's wonderful.

首先，转变，假设某人是信徒，你展示了魔法，很好，太棒了。

We can celebrate magic together.

我们可以一起庆祝魔法。

But if somebody's a skeptic, really skeptical and have had really-- And I sense that I could convert them, I could transform them.

但如果有人是一个怀疑论者，真正的怀疑论者，并且真的——我感觉我可以改变他们，我可以改变他们。

And the audience watches this transformation, so we're going from here to here.

观众观看了这一转变，所以我们从这里走到这里。

That's a wonderful thing.

这是一件美妙的事情。

So every now and then, I will recognize the person who's like, "Mm-mm" and you slowly start to see him melt-

所以时不时地，我会认出那个人，他会说“嗯嗯”，然后你慢慢地开始看到他融化了——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

...

...

and softens.

并软化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's almost like a musician at a wedding, there are the people that jump up and dance immediately.

这几乎就像婚礼上的音乐家一样，人们立即跳起来跳舞。

But if you're a skilled musician, you get that person that their wife is saying, "Come on, let's dance" and they're like-

但如果你是一位熟练的音乐家，你会听到他们的妻子对那个人说：“来吧，我们跳舞吧”，他们就像——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

He doesn't move

他不动

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

"Mm-mm, won't move." And then maybe you hit a certain motif in the music, and the person taps their foot a little bit, moves their head.

“嗯嗯，不会动。”然后，也许你触及了音乐中的某个主题，人们就会轻轻地轻拍脚，移动他们的头。

And then there's-

然后还有——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's nice

很好

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

certain people that they won't dance at all unless their song comes up, and then they dart to the dance floor.

有些人根本不会跳舞，除非他们的歌曲出现，然后他们就冲向舞池。

So it's a little bit like that.

所以有点像那样。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you've captured them.

你已经抓住了他们。

You've captured their emotion, you've captured their willingness, you've captured their whole body.

你捕捉到了他们的情感，你捕捉到了他们的意愿，你捕捉到了他们的整个身体。

...

...

a willingness to participate in something-

愿意参与某事——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Of course

当然

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that a minute before they were either too embarrassed, too stubborn, or too tired to engage in.

就在那一分钟之前，他们要么太尴尬，要么太固执，要么太累而无法参与。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So here's the deal.

所以这就是交易。

Magic could be, and often is, intimidating.

魔法可能而且常常令人生畏。

I am basically challenging your intellect.

我基本上是在挑战你的智力。

And some people, if they take it the wrong way, what they hear is, "You're telling me that you're smarter than me.

有些人，如果他们的理解错误，他们听到的是，“你告诉我你比我聪明。

You're telling me you know things I don't know, and I'm not even close to knowing.

你告诉我你知道一些我不知道的事情，而我根本不知道。

So screw you."

所以操你。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

And they will reject it aggressively.

他们会强烈拒绝它。

Like I've had, thankfully it's a percent, a time when we do walk-around magic, and I go, and some people, as soon as they see me, they go, "No, no, no, no thanks." They don't want to see it.

就像我曾经经历过的那样，谢天谢地，这是一个百分比，当我们进行绕行魔术时，我就走了，有些人一看到我，他们就走了，“不，不，不，不，谢谢。”他们不想看到它。

And to me, that drove me nuts, like why don't they want to see...

对我来说，这让我发疯，就像他们为什么不想看到......

They don't even know what I'm about to offer.

他们甚至不知道我要提供什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're going to violate their sense of self-trust.

你会侵犯他们的自信心。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's, I think, the fear.

我想，这就是恐惧。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

And as a magician, or as an artist if I use that, but my goal is to also educate them as I do the magic, that we're creating this safe space where these things could happen, and it's clear that I'm using it for your own good.

作为一名魔术师，或者作为一名艺术家，如果我使用它，但我的目标是在我施展魔法时也教育他们，我们正在创造一个安全的空间，让这些事情可以发生，很明显，我是为了你们自己的利益而使用它。

I did a whole foolish act exactly about knowing and not knowing, so I'm not going to spoil too much.

我做了一件关于知道和不知道的愚蠢行为，所以我不会剧透太多。

If people want to see it, they can see it.

如果人们想看到它，他们就能看到它。

I'll tell you a backstory on this, if you don't mind.

如果你不介意的话，我会告诉你一个关于这件事的背景故事。

So Tommy, the three major heroes of magic are Juan Tamariz, Tommy Wonder, and Chan Canasta.

所以汤米，魔法界的三大英雄是胡安·塔马里斯、汤米·旺德和陈·卡纳斯塔。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are they alive still?

他们还活着吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Chan is not, and Tommy passed.

陈不在，而汤米则去世了。

Juan is still kicking butt in Madrid.

胡安仍在马德里踢球。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think I saw him at the castle.

我想我在城堡里见过他。

He's very-

他非常-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes, yes, yes, yes

是的，是的，是的，是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

very exuberant.

非常旺盛。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

Yeah.

是的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So he's a hero, and I'm his student.

所以他是英雄，而我是他的学生。

But let's talk about Tommy for a sec.

但让我们谈谈汤米。

So Tommy, for a long time, he did magic that magicians did not know how it works.

所以汤米，很长一段时间，他都在表演魔术师们不知道它是如何运作的魔术。

It was so devious that even magicians did not know how it works.

它是如此狡猾，以至于连魔术师也不知道它是如何运作的。

And at some point, he released some DVDs that teach his magic.

在某个时候，他发行了一些教他魔法的 DVD。

And the trick is very simple.

而且技巧很简单。

He borrows someone's watch, it disappears, and there's a table right next to him with a little box and a ribbon, and he literally grabs the ribbon, so he never touches the box, lifts the box, gives it to somebody.

他借了某人的手表，它消失了，他旁边有一张桌子，上面有一个小盒子和一条丝带，他实际上抓住了丝带，所以他从来没有碰过盒子，举起盒子，把它给别人。

He opens it, inside there's an alarm clock.

他打开它，里面有一个闹钟。

They unscrew the alarm clock, and inside is their watch.

他们拧开闹钟，里面是他们的手表。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No. I mean, yes.

不，我的意思是，是的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

But even magicians who saw that, they go, "I have no idea how it's done.

但即使是看到这一点的魔术师也会说：“我不知道这是怎么做到的。

No idea." And then I remember watching the explanation for the first time, and I was thinking that the method was by far more interesting, intriguing, revealing, just beautiful.

不知道。”然后我记得第一次看解释时，我认为这个方法迄今为止更有趣、更有趣、更有启发性，而且更美丽。

It made the trick less.

这使得把戏变得更少。

Like I said, "You should perform the explanation.

就像我说的，“你应该进行解释。

Don't perform the trick, perform the explanation." And I broke the rules of magic.

不要表演技巧，而是进行解释。”我打破了魔法的规则。

My non-magician friends will come over and say, "Let me show you something," and I show them the trick, and they go, "Wow, that's amazing." Let me show the explanation.

我的非魔术师朋友会走过来说，“让我给你看一些东西”，然后我向他们展示这个魔术，他们会说，“哇，太棒了。”让我来解释一下。

And their mind was blown.

他们的心大为震惊。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are you willing to share a little bit of what the explanation is, or is that not-

你愿意分享一些解释吗，或者不是——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

No, no.

不，不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

But I will explain a little bit.

但我会解释一下。

So I'll tell you what the explanation was, that it revealed that he's an engineer, that he can build props that are ingenious.

所以我会告诉你解释是什么，这表明他是一名工程师，他可以建造巧妙的道具。

Again, I'm going around it, but at some point, the person who opens the box, he's doing part of the trick, and he doesn't know it.

再说一次，我正在绕过它，但在某些时候，打开盒子的人，他正在做一些把戏，但他不知道。

He's creating the trick, but he doesn't know he's contributing something to it.

他正在创造这个戏法，但他不知道自己正在为此做出贡献。

And it's just beautiful.

它很漂亮。

Metaphorically, symbolically, it hits so many levels at least.

从隐喻上来说，从象征意义上来说，它至少达到了很多层面。

And that planted a seed in my mind.

这在我心里种下了一颗种子。

I want to create an effect that the method is prettier than the trick itself.

我想创造一种效果，即方法比技巧本身更漂亮。

So I worked for five years to create an explanation, a pseudo explanation to a trick, that was just beautiful.

所以我花了五年的时间来创造一个解释，一个对一个技巧的伪解释，这真是太美妙了。

And it was an opportunity to...

这是一个机会...

I don't know, have you seen it?

不知道，你看过吗？

I don't know if you've-

我不知道你是否——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is the one you did for Penn and Teller?

这是你为 Penn 和 Teller 做的吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

You can describe it, or I can describe it.

你可以描述它，或者我可以描述它。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I mean-

我的意思是——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Let's see how you remember it.

让我们看看你是如何记住它的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're right.

你是对的。

I have more interest in listening than speaking.

我对听比说更感兴趣。

But I'll tell you how I remember it.

但我会告诉你我是如何记住它的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're in front of a very large audience-

你面对着一大群观众——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that includes the scientist/show guys at Penn and Teller-

其中包括宾夕法尼亚大学和泰勒大学的科学家/表演者——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Penn and Teller

佩恩和泰勒

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

who basically debunk stuff.

他们基本上揭穿了一些东西。

They're kind of-

他们有点-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

They try to figure it out.

他们试图找出答案。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They try and figure stuff out.

他们尝试解决问题。

They are asked to pick someone in the audience.

他们被要求在观众中挑选一个人。

They pick a guy, as I recall, who wore a green and white sweater.

我记得，他们挑选了一个穿着绿白毛衣的人。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Wow, you have a good memory.

哇，你记性真好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Wow.

哇。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He stands up, and you ask him to pick a card.

他站起来，你让他选一张牌。

I think, I forget what it is, a jack of clubs, perhaps.

我想，我忘了那是什么，也许是梅花杰克。

Let's just say for sake of example, jack of clubs.

举个例子，俱乐部的杰克。

You said, "You're now on stage." Mind you, there are hundreds of people in the audience.

你说：“你现在在舞台上。”请注意，观众中有数百人。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe more, and you say, "Are you sure?" And he goes, "Yeah." And then you say, "Are you very sure?" And he said, "No, I'm going to switch." So now it's-

也许更多，然后你说：“你确定吗？”他说：“是的。”然后你说：“你确定吗？”他说：“不，我要换。”所以现在是——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

You know what?

你知道吗？

First of all, you have a good memory.

首先，你的记忆力很好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That-

那——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Wow .

哇。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Perhaps.

也许吧。

Perhaps.

也许。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Wow.

哇。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've been accused of, I have a little bit of an audiographic memory for certain things-

我被指责，我对某些事情有一点听觉记忆——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Oh, wow

哦，哇

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but not a visual memory that's perfect.

但视觉记忆并不是完美的。

They're sort of adjacent.

他们有点相邻。

We could talk about that sometime.

我们可以找个时间谈谈这个。

It's something that helps you if you need to learn neuroanatomy.

如果您需要学习神经解剖学，它会对您有所帮助。

That's about it.

就是这样。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can be cultivated.

可以栽培。

Okay, so then he switches the card.

好吧，那他就换卡了。

Let's just call it, I don't know, jack of spades, right?

我不知道，我们就称之为黑桃杰克吧？

Okay.

好的。

Or king of spades.

或者黑桃K。

Doesn't matter.

没关系。

Let's say jack of spades, and then next to you on the table, a On the stage is a table, a round table, with a plexiglass box.

比如说黑桃杰克，然后在你旁边的桌子上，有一张桌子，一张圆桌，有一个有机玻璃盒子。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Cigar box.

雪茄盒。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Cigar box.

雪茄盒。

It's clear.

天气晴朗。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

No, not yet.

不，还没有。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No?

没有？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Not yet.

还没有。

Later.

之后。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Later, okay.

以后就好了

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Because first it's just a wooden cigar box.

因为首先它只是一个木制雪茄盒。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A wooden box, that's right.

木盒子，没错。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

A wooden cigar.

一支木制雪茄。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And a mug.

还有一个杯子。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A white mug, not unlike the mug I have here, except white.

一个白色的杯子，除了白色之外，和我这里的杯子没什么不同。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You take a sip from that mug, and then at some point during this exchange, and then you open the box-

你从那个杯子里喝了一口，然后在这次交流的某个时刻，然后你打开了盒子——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and you pull from the box, of course, the card that he selected.

当然，你从盒子里拿出他选择的卡片。

And everyone goes, "Oh my goodness, how could that possibly be?"

每个人都会说：“天啊，这怎么可能？”

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because obviously anyone could have been selected in the audience, he switched his choice, et cetera.

因为显然观众中的任何人都可以被选中，所以他改变了他的选择，等等。

But then you reveal how the trick is done, or at least seemingly reveal it, which is that beneath the box, there's a bunch of different decks of cards on a big-

但是然后你揭示了这个技巧是如何完成的，或者至少看起来揭示了它，那就是在盒子下面，有一堆不同的牌在一个大的-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

52

52

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

52 on a turnstile.

52 位于十字转门上。

So within each one, a...

所以在每一个里面，都有一个...

Right, and I missed a piece of it.

对了，我漏掉了其中的一部分。

You pull out the whole deck, and only one card is turned over.

你拿出整副牌，只有一张牌被翻开。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Or in reverse, and all the other cards are blank.

或者反过来，所有其他卡都是空白的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All the other cards are blank, right.

所有其他卡片都是空白的，对吧。

So there's more to it.

所以还有更多的事情要做。

So then it turns out that there are 52 different decks underneath the table, and it's on a turnstile, so you can actually dial it in.

结果发现桌子下面有 52 个不同的牌组，而且它位于十字转门上，所以你实际上可以拨入。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

And let's keep the ending surprise.

让我们保留结局的惊喜吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So there's a surprise ending to it.

于是就有了一个令人惊讶的结局。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

So then it, at least seemingly, makes sense as to how Asi did this.

那么，至少看起来，阿西是如何做到这一点是有道理的。

He has all the different possible options available to him physically, but the audience doesn't realize that.

他在身体上有所有不同的可能选择，但观众没有意识到这一点。

Also, the mug, by the way, engages a magnet system that allows him to dial the deck of cards to the-

另外，顺便说一下，这个杯子有一个磁铁系统，可以让他将这副牌拨到——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Exactly

正是如此

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

correct one that allows him to match the choice.

正确的一个可以让他匹配选择。

So it truly could be any card in the deck.

所以它确实可以是牌组中的任何一张牌。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Good memory.

好记性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Meaning it's all...

意思就是这一切...

So the straightforward explanation is it's all physical trickery by way of props.

所以最简单的解释就是这都是通过道具的物理欺骗。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Correct.

正确。

So here's the deal.

所以这就是交易。

What I try to achieve with this piece is first to make people feel magic.

我试图通过这件作品达到的目的首先是让人们感受到魔力。

So the trick, it's a good trick.

所以这个技巧，这是一个好技巧。

Name any card.

说出任意一张卡的名称。

The card he named was reversed, and then it was the only blue card in the deck, and then all the other cards were blank.

他点名的那张牌被反转了，然后它就是这副牌中唯一一张蓝色的牌，然后其他的牌全部都是空白。

So it's clearly the only card he could have named, and he did switches, which is an amazing detail that you remembered.

所以这显然是他唯一可以命名的牌，而且他确实进行了切换，这是你记得的一个令人惊奇的细节。

He did switch from the king of clubs to the king of spades or vice versa.

他确实从梅花K变成了黑桃K，反之亦然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Something like that, yeah.

类似的事情，是的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Now, so people felt what it's like to see a good card trick, right?

现在，人们感受到了看到一个好的纸牌戏法是什么感觉，对吗？

And then I wanted them to feel what it's like to know.

然后我想让他们感受到知道是什么感觉。

And the lesson here is you could satisfy your curiosity, "Oh, that's how it's done," and you can go on with your life, and that's it.

这里的教训是你可以满足你的好奇心，“哦，事情就是这样完成的”，然后你就可以继续你的生活，仅此而已。

And that's what happens to a magician.

这就是魔术师的遭遇。

When you first learn the secrets to something that fooled you, there's disappointment.

当你第一次得知那些愚弄你的事情的秘密时，你会感到失望。

I remember the first trick that was revealed to me, it was a little red handkerchief stuffed into the hand, gone.

我记得向我透露的第一个伎俩，就是一块小红手帕塞到手上，不见了。

And I'm like, "What?

我想，“什么？

Do it again." And he did it again.

再做一次。”他又这么做了。

He did it 10 times in a row.

他连续做了10次。

And then he explained to me how it's done.

然后他向我解释了它是如何完成的。

And the secret was so simple and stupid.

而这个秘密是如此简单和愚蠢。

I went, "No. No, no."

我说：“不，不，不。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can that you share with us?

您能与我们分享一下吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

No. No. But I got to, it was primitive, it was simple, and the moment he revealed the gimmick-

不，不，但我必须这样做，这很原始，很简单，当他揭露这个噱头的那一刻——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

...

...

that caused the handkerchief to disappear, I could not see the trick again.

导致手帕消失，我再也看不到魔术了。

Every time he does, "Well, it's this.

每次他都会说：“好吧，就是这个。

Yeah."

是的。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like falling out of love.

就像失恋一样。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Something like, yeah.

就像是的。

That's true.

这是真的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really.

真的。

A previous guest on the podcast, Karl Deisseroth, one of the best bioengineers, neuroscientists, and psychiatrists in the world, went on Lex Fridman podcast, and they were talking about love.

播客的前一位嘉宾卡尔·戴瑟罗斯 (Karl Deisseroth) 是世界上最好的生物工程师、神经科学家和精神病学家之一，他参加了莱克斯·弗里德曼 (Lex Fridman) 播客，他们正在谈论爱情。

And Karl said something interesting that's very relevant here.

卡尔说了一些有趣的话，与这里非常相关。

He said, he's a colleague of mine at Stanford, very poetic guy.

他说，他是我在斯坦福的一个同事，非常有诗意的人。

He said, "Love between two people, romantic love that is, is one of the few things in life that we collaborate with someone to story something into the future."

他说：“两个人之间的爱情，即浪漫的爱情，是生活中为数不多的我们与某人合作讲述未来故事的事情之一。”

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is different than the love of a child or a sibling or a parent or a pet, et cetera, or a friend.

这与孩子、兄弟姐妹、父母、宠物等等或朋友的爱不同。

That you're creating a story that's based on real experience of past and present.

你正在创造一个基于过去和现在的真实经历的故事。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But there's this storying forward of love.

但这是一个关于爱情的故事。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

That's great.

太好了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And falling out of love involves, of course, the ending of the story moving forward, but also, in some cases, sadly, a revision of the events of the past.

当然，失恋涉及到故事的结局，但在某些情况下，可悲的是，也涉及到对过去事件的修正。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's great.

太棒了。

It's very close.

非常接近。

It's very close to the feeling you have as a magician the first time a trick get exposed, right?

这和你作为魔术师第一次魔术被揭穿时的感觉非常接近，对吗？

It disappoints you because you have a desire for it to be real.

它让你失望，因为你渴望它是真实的。

The desire of a young magician is when I see something like that, is that it's a supernatural power.

年轻魔法师的愿望是，当我看到那样的东西时，这是一种超自然的力量。

And the first thing you understand is that it's not supernatural, that it's quite simple and primitive.

你首先要明白的是，它不是超自然的，而是非常简单和原始的。

And it fooled you because of all the psychology and the desire.

它因为所有的心理和欲望而愚弄了你。

Like everything we spoke about, my desire to see magic, the idea of misdirection, which we can talk about at length.

就像我们谈论的一切一样，我对看到魔法的渴望，误导的想法，我们可以详细讨论。

Misdirection means I provide something very interesting for you to follow, and you will follow that path because it's the most interesting at the moment to follow.

误导意味着我提供了一些非常有趣的东西让你遵循，你会遵循这条道路，因为它是目前最有趣的。

And in the background, in the shadiness of life, some dirty stuff happened, but you don't pay attention to it because I don't feature it.

在幕后，在生活的阴暗处，发生了一些肮脏的事情，但你没有注意到它，因为我没有报道它。

It's not important.

这并不重要。

And I make you render it as not important.

我让你把它渲染成不重要。

So it does that, right?

所以它就是这样做的，对吗？

And it's disappointment.

这是令人失望的。

But there's good news.

但有好消息。

If you keep up with magic and you start to understand that to do a trick, the secret- The actual how you did it is 1% of the whole procedure, and there's much more to doing that trick effectively, which is storytelling, connecting, doing it in such a way that somebody cares about it, and that is a lifetime of pondering and contemplation.

如果你跟上魔术的步伐，并且开始明白表演魔术的秘诀——你实际是如何做到的，只占整个过程的1%，而要有效地表演这个魔术，还有更多的事情要做，那就是讲故事、建立联系、以有人关心它的方式做这件事，这是一生的思考和沉思。

So you have, maybe you'll find analogy with love again, I don't know.

所以你有，也许你会再次找到爱情的类比，我不知道。

There's also this time when you start appreciating it again, appreciate the secret again, because you understand the nuance.

也有这个时候，你开始再次欣赏它，再次欣赏这个秘密，因为你了解其中的细微差别。

You understand the complexity of this simple thing, and that's what happened to me.

你明白这个简单事情的复杂性，这就是发生在我身上的事情。

So in some magic, which is the exception, it's the table that we spoke about that I didn't fool us, or Tommy Wonder's table, where the effect is so magnificent that you do appreciate it immediately, but those are rare.

所以在某些魔术中，这是个例外，就是我们谈到的那张桌子，我没有欺骗我们，或者汤米·旺德的桌子，它的效果是如此宏伟，以至于你会立即欣赏它，但这些是罕见的。

Most magic is simple, dirty, and to the point.

大多数魔法都是简单、脏乱却切中要害的。

But it achieves something that looks very complex.

但它实现了一些看起来非常复杂的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Perhaps now would be the appropriate time for you to reveal the non-reveal of the explanation of the trick.

或许现在是你揭开谜底的适当时机。

Because one of the amazing things about the trick that you did with selecting the card that the gentleman in the audience of Penn and Teller had mentally and verbally selected, is that at the very end, after everyone believes they now understand how the trick is done, the turn foul table, the magnet, the coffee mug, you proceed to strip away the-

因为你在选择佩恩和特勒观众中的绅士在心里和口头上选择的卡片时所做的魔术的令人惊奇的事情之一是，在最后，当每个人都相信他们现在明白了这个魔术是如何完成的，翻转犯规桌，磁铁，咖啡杯时，你开始剥去——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

The curtain

窗帘

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the curtain around the table and pull out a piece of paper, not 52 decks of cards.

拉开桌子周围的帘子，抽出一张纸，而不是 52 副牌。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's a picture of 52

这是一张52的照片

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a picture, which means that the explanation that they got, while entirely plausible, if that's actually what had happened, is not at all what had happened.

这是一张图片，这意味着他们得到的解释虽然完全合理，但如果这确实发生过的话，那么根本就不是发生过的事情。

In other words, you pop out at the end that they don't actually know how it's done.

换句话说，你最终会发现他们实际上并不知道这是如何完成的。

You know how it's done, and I'm not even going to bother to ask you how it's done because you're not going to reveal it.

你知道它是如何完成的，我什至懒得问你它是如何完成的，因为你不会透露它。

In other words, people were misdirected into thinking they understood the trick, and therefore, there's a bit of a letdown.

换句话说，人们被误导，认为他们理解了这个技巧，因此，有一点失望。

It's interesting, but it's just mechanics.

这很有趣，但这只是机制。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Magnets, and then you reveal that their understanding is actually not real.

磁铁，然后你就会发现他们的理解实际上并不真实。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes, and the reason I wanted to go there, I wanted them to feel magic, then to feel what it's like to know something, and the fact that it's irreversible.

是的，我想去那里的原因是，我希望他们感受到魔法，然后感受到知道某事是什么感觉，以及它是不可逆转的事实。

You can't un-know a trick once you know how it's done.

一旦你知道了一个技巧是如何完成的，你就不可能不知道它。

And then what I said, "Look, I made a choice.

然后我说：“看，我做出了选择。

I chose to learn the secrets to magic, and I'm paying a price for it.

我选择学习魔法的秘密，我也为此付出了代价。

I cannot see magic the way you can.

我无法像你那样看待魔法。

I cannot enjoy it the way my audience can.

我无法像我的观众那样享受它。

And in a weird way, I've experienced magic only through their eyes." When I see somebody who goes, "Wow," through you, I can experience it.

以一种奇怪的方式，我只能通过他们的眼睛体验到魔法。”当我看到有人通过你发出“哇”的声音时，我就能体验到这一点。

But that's it.

但仅此而已。

I cannot firsthand experience magic the way you can.

我无法像你一样亲身体验魔法。

So I said, "I'm not here to make that choice for you.

所以我说：“我来这里不是为了帮你做出选择。

So let me bring you back to safety, to the place you were at.

那么，让我带你回到安全的地方，回到你所在的地方。

It's a place I envy, to mystery." And then I reveal that the whole explanation was bogus.

这是一个我羡慕的、神秘的地方。”然后我透露整个解释都是假的。

The whole thing was just another lie.

整件事只是另一个谎言。

And I'm establishing another thing, that as a magician, I have a license to lie to you, and it's okay, because that's my job, and therefore it makes it honest.

我正在建立另一件事，作为一名魔术师，我有资格对你撒谎，这没关系，因为那是我的工作，因此它是诚实的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we're collaborating in that to some extent, because when people go to a magic show, they understand that.

我们在某种程度上进行了合作，因为当人们去看魔术表演时，他们会理解这一点。

Another former guest on the podcast, Rick Rubin, who needs no introduction, but by the way, he's a big fan of magic, has said to me before, that there are only two things in life that are absolutely true.

播客的另一位前嘉宾瑞克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）不需要介绍，但顺便说一句，他是魔术的忠实粉丝，他之前对我说过，生活中只有两件事是绝对正确的。

One is nature, right?

一是自然，对吗？

There are real truths, there are real laws and rules of nature.

有真正的真理，有真正的自然法则和规则。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the other is, for him, professional wrestling, because Rick loves professional wrestling.

另一个对他来说是职业摔跤，因为里克喜欢职业摔跤。

He's a lifetime member of the AEW and the WWE, I've gone to see wrestling with him, and the reason he believes it's one of the few things that's real is that everyone knows it's not real, and so everyone agrees to collaborate in this story, this theater of these guys hate each other, this woman and this woman are now friends, they are collaborators.

他是 AEW 和 WWE 的终身会员，我去看了他的摔跤，他相信这是为数不多的真实的事情之一，因为每个人都知道这不是真的，所以每个人都同意在这个故事中合作，这个剧院的这些家伙互相憎恨，这个女人和这个女人现在是朋友，他们是合作者。

And so unlike everything else, which is completely made up, and you're not sure what's real and what's fake, with professional wrestling and with nature, it's a real truth.

因此，与其他完全虚构的事物不同，你不确定什么是真的，什么是假的，对于职业摔跤和自然来说，这是一个真实的事实。

I would add to that magic, because when we go to see magic, we want to be astonished.

我会添加这种魔法，因为当我们去看魔法时，我们希望感到惊讶。

Most people do.

大多数人都是这样。

We want our perceptions to be violated, right?

我们希望我们的观念被侵犯，对吧？

What we believe is there isn't there, et cetera.

我们相信不存在等等。

And yet we are doing this consensually.

然而我们是在双方同意的情况下这样做的。

We're doing this, and so we're agreeing, like let's collaborate in a lie that there's this thing called magic.

我们正在这样做，所以我们同意，就像让我们在谎言中合作一样，有一种叫做魔法的东西。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I guess, and that's a pretty ill-defined term in its own right, where this idea that physical objects can be made to disappear, violate the rules of nature, of physics.

我想，这本身就是一个非常不明确的术语，这种认为物理物体可以消失的想法违反了自然和物理学的规则。

And unless you're of a certain ilk out there in the world, that simply is not the case.

除非你是世界上的某一类人，否则事实并非如此。

The laws of nature hold.

自然法则成立。

So, yeah.

所以，是的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Maybe there's another analogy there, because we know that professional wrestlers are faking it, and we know a magician fakes it, too.

也许还有另一个类比，因为我们知道职业摔跤手在伪造它，我们也知道魔术师也在伪造它。

He fakes supernatural powers.

他伪造超自然力量。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

They're doing real things in wrestling, but they're not actually trying to harm one another.

他们在摔跤中做的是真实的事情，但他们实际上并没有试图伤害彼此。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

They're collaborating with one another.

他们正在互相合作。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

But it's almost a choreographed fight, right?

但这几乎是一场精心设计的战斗，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes.

是的。

I think my understanding is, based on discussions with Rick and professional wrestlers that Rick has introduced me to, is that there's some room for improvisation, and occasionally people will hurt one another, accidentally.

根据与里克和里克介绍给我的职业摔跤手的讨论，我认为我的理解是，有一些即兴创作的空间，有时人们会意外地互相伤害。

Sometimes there are real conflicts that are created.

有时会产生真正的冲突。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just like in the theater, people will have relationships offstage, et cetera, and it creates conflict onstage, and that's where the theater of life meets the theater-

就像在剧院里一样，人们在台下会有关系等等，这会在台上产生冲突，这就是生活的戏剧与戏剧相遇的地方——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Sure

当然可以

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of the stage and vice versa.

舞台，反之亦然。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So I would add to that, maybe, maybe I'm wrong, that You do a magic show and an educated person, a smart person who knows that what I do is trickery, conjuring, but every now and then they might ask, "I wonder if that was real.

所以我想补充一点，也许，也许我错了，你做一个魔术表演，一个受过教育的人，一个聪明的人，他知道我所做的是欺骗，魔术，但时不时地他们可能会问，“我想知道那是不是真的。

That little part he just did, maybe that was real." So there's a moment, I think, in magic, where even the smartest guy who knows I do tricks will go, "Yeah, this is all tricks, but maybe what he just did now, maybe that was real."

他刚刚所做的那一小部分，也许那是真的。”所以我想，在魔术中，有那么一个时刻，即使是最聪明的人知道我会表演魔术，也会说：“是的，这都是魔术，但也许他现在所做的，也许是真的。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When you say real, you mean-

当你说真实时，你的意思是——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mean real-

平均实数-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Violate the rules of-

违反规则——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

...

...

real magic

真正的魔法

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of physics.

物理学的。

So, taking a card, holding it up, clenching your fist, making it disappear.

所以，拿起一张卡片，举起它，握紧拳头，让它消失。

I'm giving simple, kind of silly-

我给出的很简单，有点傻-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Or mind-reading.

或者读心术。

Or, they say maybe he's able to do those things psychologically or whatnot, right?

或者，他们说也许他能够在心理上或其他什么方面做这些事情，对吧？

And maybe that happens also in wrestling.

也许摔跤也会发生这种情况。

They say, "Yeah, it's fake, but I think that moment was real."

他们说：“是的，这是假的，但我认为那一刻是真实的。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So there's an inkling or moments where...

所以有一个暗示或时刻...

Because I think to create this drama, and to me, that exists in magic.

因为我想创作这部戏剧，对我来说，这存在于魔法中。

Is it real?

这是真的吗？

Is it fake?

是假的吗？

Did I figure it out, or did I not figure it out?

是我想通了，还是我没想通？

Am I close, or am I not?

我是接近还是不接近？

There's constant conflict in a magic show that you go in and out of, and I wonder if that happens in wrestling as well, where you know it's fake, but maybe there's something that was real, or this happened and that was not planned.

在魔术表演中，你进出时会不断发生冲突，我想知道摔跤中是否也会发生这种情况，你知道它是假的，但也许有些东西是真实的，或者这件事发生了，但那是没有计划的。

So I think that just the thinking, the fact that you invest it into thinking what is real and what is not is intriguing.

所以我认为，光是思考，投入思考什么是真实的、什么不是真实的事实就很有趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think there's a much larger theme here that we're veering toward, and I'm getting excited because this has to do with how the brain works, and there are examples in different domains.

我认为我们正在转向一个更大的主题，我很兴奋，因为这与大脑的工作方式有关，并且在不同领域都有例子。

But two come to mind now.

但现在我想到了两个。

Rick and I sometimes hang out here in Los Angeles, and there's a place where we do sauna and cold, and it looks out on the ocean.

里克和我有时会在洛杉矶闲逛，那里有一个我们做桑拿和冷敷的地方，而且可以看到大海。

And Rick once turned to me and said, "Isn't it interesting?

里克有一次转向我说：“这不是很有趣吗？

We know that there are all these animals under the water, dolphins and whales and all this stuff, sharks.

我们知道水下有所有这些动物，海豚和鲸鱼以及所有这些东西，鲨鱼。

But when we see a dolphin or a group of dolphins, or we see a whale breach, it's like people are just delighted." Now, they're beautiful animals, but oftentimes it's just a tail slapping the top.

但当我们看到一只海豚或一群海豚，或者看到鲸鱼跃出水面时，人们就会很高兴。”现在，它们是美丽的动物，但通常只是尾巴拍打顶部。

And he said, "I wonder if it's because it reminds us of how much is going on there underneath the surface."

他说：“我想知道这是否是因为它提醒我们在表面之下发生了多少事情。”

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

That's nice.

那很好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I love that because I think, A, he's right.

我喜欢这一点，因为我认为，A，他是对的。

I've done some snorkeling, some scuba diving, and you see lots of stuff, and it's a brilliant experience to see all that and to be a fish of sorts and to be breathing underwater.

我做过一些浮潜，一些水肺潜水，你会看到很多东西，看到这一切并成为一条鱼并在水下呼吸是一次很棒的经历。

But there is something magnificent about seeing an aquatic animal breach the surface.

但看到水生动物冲出水面还是很奇妙的。

And it goes beyond just seeing the animal.

它不仅仅是看到动物。

It's like a reminder of all these other things that are likely happening that are outside our usual perception.

这就像提醒我们可能发生的所有其他事情超出了我们通常的看法。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so that's what comes to mind there.

这就是我想到的。

And then I had another example, but I can't think of it now, where...

然后我还有另一个例子，但我现在想不起来了，在哪里......

Oh, it's in sports.

哦，这是在体育运动中。

I always think of there's unskilled, skilled, mastery, and virtuosity.

我总是认为有不熟练的、熟练的、精通的和精湛的。

And virtuosity in music, like Yo-Yo Ma, or in sport, I don't know, pick, I don't know, Michael Jordan, whatever favorite sport, this idea that maybe they don't even know what they're going to do next, that there's some improvisation at the level of extreme mastery-

还有音乐方面的精湛技艺，比如马友友，或者体育方面的精湛技艺，我不知道，选择，我不知道，迈克尔乔丹，无论什么最喜欢的运动，这个想法也许他们甚至不知道他们下一步要做什么，在极限掌握水平上有一些即兴创作——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

where you're going to see something you've never seen before, and I think that's what delights people.

在那里你会看到一些你以前从未见过的东西，我认为这就是人们高兴的地方。

It's not just about getting the ball into the end zone or the ball into the basket or playing a piece of music.

这不仅仅是将球送入达阵区或将球送入篮筐或播放一段音乐。

It's the idea of something happening for the first time, and maybe, again, as with the earlier example, that the person performing, the athlete, the musician, et cetera, the magician, the mentalist, they themselves are delighted by what just happened.

这是第一次发生某事的想法，也许，就像前面的例子一样，表演者、运动员、音乐家等等，魔术师、心灵学家，他们自己对刚刚发生的事情感到高兴。

They didn't even realize it was going to happen, and you collaborate in this like, "Wow, life holds far more than I experience in my daily perceptual kind of framework." Yeah.

他们甚至没有意识到这会发生，而你们的合作就像是，“哇，生活中的东西远比我在日常感知框架中经历的要多。”是的。

Could very well could be.

很可能是。

And I think your shows bring people to that.

我认为你的节目让人们意识到了这一点。

I want to return to a couple of ideas.

我想回到几个想法。

First of all, we've been talking about emotion and collaboration a lot.

首先，我们一直在谈论情感和协作。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We've had a guest on the podcast, David Spiegel, he's our associate chair of psychiatry at Stanford, who does clinical hypnosis, which it brings people into a state of calm plus a very constrained context where they're more likely to think about certain things than others.

我们的播客上有一位嘉宾，大卫·斯皮格尔（David Spiegel），他是斯坦福大学精神病学副主任，从事临床催眠工作，它可以使人们进入一种平静的状态，但在一个非常受限的环境中，他们比其他人更有可能思考某些事情。

How much of what you do with an individual or group of people in your craft involves hypnosis, constraining the context?

在你的工作中，你对个人或一群人所做的事情有多少涉及催眠，限制环境？

In other words, eliminating certain patterns of thinking to make other certain patterns of thinking more likely.

换句话说，消除某些思维模式可以使其他某些思维模式更有可能出现。

Is that like a storytelling?

这像讲故事吗？

Like you start telling me a story, a horror story or a mystery or a comedy story, I'm shutting down whatever you're not talking about.

就像你开始给我讲一个故事，恐怖故事，悬疑故事或喜剧故事一样，我会关闭你不讲的任何内容。

Is that something that you do?

这是你做的事情吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

So, first of all, we have theatrical hypnosis, people that do shows where they gather about 20 people on stage, and they start making them dance like chickens, right?

所以，首先，我们有戏剧催眠，人们在舞台上聚集大约 20 个人，然后开始让他们像小鸡一样跳舞，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

I've never been full on with these type of performances for various reasons, and just to me, that's not the best way for me to engage with an audience or to manipulate them.

由于各种原因，我从来没有完全热衷于这类表演，对我来说，这不是我与观众互动或操纵他们的最佳方式。

However, there's certain things that we do in magic that if you say certain things in a certain way, it will produce a certain answer, and it amazes me, too.

然而，我们在魔法中做了某些事情，如果你以某种方式说出某些事情，就会产生某种答案，这也让我感到惊讶。

We call them psychological forces, that you say a string of words in a certain order, and it will produce, with high percentage, a yes or a no, or I want this and not that.

我们称之为心理力量，你按照一定的顺序说出一串单词，它会以很高的比例产生“是”或“否”，或者我想要这个而不是那个。

And-

还有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like would you want to pick this deck of cards or that deck of cards type leading.

就像你想选择这副牌或那副牌类型领先一样。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

That could be the simplest of the idea, but it could be even more complex than that.

这可能是最简单的想法，但也可能比这更复杂。

And it amazes me because it's almost like a recipe.

这让我很惊讶，因为它几乎就像一个食谱。

You follow the recipe, put it in the oven, boom.

你按照食谱做，把它放进烤箱，繁荣。

Okay But there's- In magic, when I search certain things, there's a moment when I'm waiting for you to say something, and I don't know if you're going to follow what I just did.

好吧，但是——在魔法中，当我搜索某些东西时，有那么一刻我会等你说些什么，但我不知道你是否会遵循我刚才所做的事情。

And then I hear it and I go, there's a joy .

然后我听到了，我走了，有一种喜悦。

It's like, "Yes, it worked."

就像是，“是的，它起作用了。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It worked.

它起作用了。

And this reveals something fundamental about the brain.

这揭示了大脑的一些基本知识。

First, is I could imagine if, like we have two mugs in front of me, for those listening, if I hover my finger on one of them longer than others and I say, "Would you like to drink from this mug?" and keep it there for 10 seconds, or, "This one?" and I just tap the other one briefly, do you think you bias the probability of which one somebody-

首先，我可以想象，就像我们面前有两个杯子，对于那些听的人来说，如果我将手指悬停在其中一个杯子上的时间比其他杯子长，然后我说：“你想用这个杯子喝水吗？”并保持 10 秒钟，或者“这个？”我只是简单地点击另一个，你认为你会偏向哪一个人的概率-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Absolutely

绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

will pick?

会选？

Okay.

好的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Because, and that's a great example.

因为，这是一个很好的例子。

It depends on my character.

这取决于我的性格。

First I need to know who I'm doing it to.

首先我需要知道我在为谁做这件事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Are you the challenger?

你是挑战者吗？

Are you the guy who's going to go with anything?

你是那个愿意接受任何事情的人吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, let's say it's the guy who will go with anything.

好吧，假设这是一个什么都愿意做的人。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Well, I think there's a likelihood he will go with the one you touched longer.

嗯，我认为他很可能会选择你接触时间更长的那个。

But if he's the challenger, he will say, "Oh, I see what's happening here."

但如果他是挑战者，他会说：“哦，我明白这里发生了什么。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

"Andrew is trying to make me take this one, and therefore, I'm going to take that one."

“安德鲁试图让我接受这个，因此，我要接受那个。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So, and that's the simplest idea of challenges.

这就是挑战最简单的想法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I could challenge you again and say with doubt, and then I could say, "Are you sure you want the one that I tapped just briefly?" I'm not telling you it that way, but I'd say, "Are you sure?" And if you say- ...

我可以再次挑战你并怀疑地说，然后我可以说，“你确定你想要我刚才短暂点击的那个吗？”我不会那样告诉你，但我会说：“你确定吗？”如果你说——...

yes, you're challenging me again, and now I'm certain you're a challenger.

是的，你又在挑战我，现在我确信你是一个挑战者。

So you're collecting data, basically.

所以基本上你是在收集数据。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

You're collecting data.

你正在收集数据。

And because I've done it thousands of times, I do the exact same spiel, the same order of events, and I get to try it, and sometimes I'll say, "Okay, let's phrase it differently." There's routines where I do, and I need someone to say a certain something.

因为我已经这样做了数千次，所以我会做完全相同的演讲，相同的事件顺序，并且我会尝试一下，有时我会说，“好吧，让我们换一种说法。”我有一些例行公事，我需要有人说某件事。

And I don't just rely on the psychological force.

而且我不仅仅依靠心理力量。

I have other tools in my arsenal of tools.

我的工具库里还有其他工具。

But it surprises me the percentage, the rate.

但它的百分比、比率让我感到惊讶。

And that's something which Chan did a lot.

这是陈经常做的事情。

He understood the idea that if people feel challenged, they do this.

他理解这样的想法：如果人们感到受到挑战，他们就会这样做。

If they feel like maybe that you're desperate for them to change, they'll act a different way.

如果他们觉得你可能迫切希望他们改变，他们就会采取不同的行为方式。

And again, I'm tiptoeing again because I don't want to demystify magic here.

再一次，我再次踮起脚尖，因为我不想在这里揭开魔法的神秘面纱。

I'm trying to say that there's a real way for...

我想说的是，有一个真正的方法...

And Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky, they talk about it in their work, their "Thinking, Fast and Slow," for example, which to us is a magic book, how people make decisions.

丹尼尔·卡尼曼（Daniel Kahneman）和阿莫斯·特沃斯基（Amos Tversky）在他们的作品中谈到了这一点，例如他们的《思考，快与慢》，这对我们来说是一本神奇的书，讲述了人们如何做出决定。

And they often say if you phrase a question one way versus another way, and even though the same thing is at stake, it's the same equation, if you phrase it this way, they'll prefer that.

他们经常说，如果你用一种方式而不是另一种方式来表达一个问题，即使同样的事情处于危险之中，它也是相同的等式，如果你用这种方式来表达它，他们会更喜欢那样。

If you phrase it that way, they prefer the other one.

如果你这样说，他们就会更喜欢另一种。

And it makes no sense because that's it.

这毫无意义，因为就是这样。

The bottom line is, which one do you want?

底线是，你想要哪一个？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I think the brain runs algorithms, and some of it's historical in how we are raised.

嗯，我认为大脑运行算法，其中一些算法与我们的成长方式有关。

I'll give an example.

我举个例子。

A friend of mine has twins, and I said, "How's it going with the twins?

我的一个朋友有双胞胎，我说：“这对双胞胎怎么样了？

Describe their personalities and how they differ." And he said that one of his twin daughters, no matter what you tell her, she says no. She challenges you, but not as a way to disengage, as a way to engage.

描述一下他们的个性以及他们的不同之处。”他说他的一个双胞胎女儿，无论你告诉她什么，她都会拒绝。她挑战你，但不是作为一种脱离的方式，而是一种参与的方式。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Nice.

不错。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Interesting.

有趣的。

And the other one is very willing to engage in things, doesn't challenge, but engages through active collaboration.

另一个人非常愿意参与事情，不挑战，而是通过积极协作来参与。

When we had Chris Voss, a former FBI negotiator, here on the podcast, he said one way to get information from people, in these scenarios he used to do before is, instead of asking them a question, you give a hypothesis.

当前联邦调查局谈判代表克里斯·沃斯 (Chris Voss) 在播客上发言时，他说从人们那里获取信息的一种方法是，在他以前做过的这些场景中，你不要问他们问题，而是给出一个假设。

You keep your hair really nice.

你的头发保持得真好。

You got great hair.

你的头发很棒。

You must spend a lot of money on clothes.

你一定要花很多钱买衣服。

Now people will respond, he tells me, by either agreeing, yes, or, "No, I don't really spend a lot of money." You just got information, but you're not asking, "Do you spend a lot of money on clothes?" You basically state a hypothesis.

他告诉我，现在人们的反应要么是同意，要么是，“不，我并没有真正花很多钱。”你只是获得信息，但你不会问“你在衣服上花很多钱吗？”您基本上陈述了一个假设。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then they are either going to accept or refute your hypothesis.

然后他们要么接受要么反驳你的假设。

And people almost reflexively respond to hypotheses about them from others by wanting to defend the truth.

人们几乎会条件反射地回应别人对他们的假设，想要捍卫真相。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that's a way that FBI negotiators and others get information.

这是联邦调查局谈判人员和其他人获取信息的一种方式。

Rather than ask questions, give them hypotheses, and people will defend their truth to the point of giving up information they wouldn't otherwise.

与其提出问题，不如给他们假设，人们会捍卫自己的真理，甚至放弃他们不会放弃的信息。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

And if you want, I know you're here for me to reveal my tricks, so I'll reveal something.

如果你愿意的话，我知道你来这里是为了让我揭露我的把戏，所以我会透露一些东西。

Hypnotists, they do this quite a bit, and it's a beautiful strategy of doing it.

催眠师经常这样做，而且这是一个很好的策略。

They'll make a few statements, and they're simple statements.

他们会发表一些声明，而且都是简单的声明。

They're accurate.

它们是准确的。

You can argue with those statements.

您可以反驳这些说法。

They ring true, and you believe them.

它们听起来是真的，而且你相信它们。

And then maybe the last thing they're going to say is not quite true, but because you average the information and you go, "Okay, he's speaking the truth now.

然后也许他们要说的最后一件事并不完全正确，但是因为你对信息进行了平均，然后你就会说：“好吧，他现在说的是实话。

He's telling us the truth." But in between those statements, there's some inaccuracies there that are starting to manipulate you, but they're half-truths.

他告诉我们真相。”但在这些陈述之间，有一些不准确的地方开始操纵你，但它们是半真半假的。

Like, for example, I say, "This is a round table, right?

例如，我说：“这是圆桌会议，对吗？

And you can feel the light." Right?

而且你可以感受到光。”正确的？

Even if you close your eyes, you could feel the light.

即使闭上眼睛，也能感觉到光。

And you can even feel that even if you didn't know, that this is a bigger light than this one because of the heat.

即使你不知道，你甚至可以感觉到，由于热量，这是一盏比这盏更大的灯。

Now, this might be a false statement, but it makes sense.

现在看来，这可能是一个错误的说法，但它是有道理的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you can start to feel heat on one side.

您会开始感觉到一侧发热。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

And you start to go, yeah.

然后你就开始走了，是的。

It's logical.

这是合乎逻辑的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's very sensical.

这是非常有意义的。

Therefore, it's true.

因此，这是真的。

But it's a half-truth.

但这只是半真半假。

Maybe if we measured it, this is a stronger light.

如果我们测量一下，也许这是更强的光。

Who knows?

谁知道？

And I say, "And you feel there's a bit of a hum here.

我说：“你会觉得这里有一点嗡嗡声。

And the more you focus on it, and it's getting louder." Now because you're paying attention to it, it's getting louder.

你越关注它，它的声音就越大。”现在因为你在关注它，它变得越来越响亮。

It's not getting louder actually.

实际上声音并没有变大。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're guiding perception.

你在引导感知。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Exactly.

正是如此。

I'm directing your attention to the things I want you to You heard a plane?

我正在引导你注意我想让你做的事情 你听到飞机声了吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's an illusion.

这是一种幻觉。

No, it is a real plane.

不，这是一架真正的飞机。

But this is something that hypnotists do very well.

但这是催眠师非常擅长的事情。

Guiding you, going to NLP and all that, it's all related.

指导你、学习 NLP 等等，这些都是相关的。

The idea of sounding like they're telling you things that should make sense, and they're accurate, but they're not.

听起来好像他们在告诉你一些应该有意义的事情，而且它们是准确的，但事实并非如此。

They're sort of accurate.

它们有点准确。

And it becomes more and more ridiculous until they tell you, "Dance like a chicken." And then you dance like a chicken.

事情变得越来越荒谬，直到他们告诉你：“像鸡一样跳舞。”然后你就像小鸡一样跳舞。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It's so interesting because perception obviously is governed by the brain, at least in part, brain and body, but nervous system, and we have essentially two attentional spotlights, meaning we can pay attention to two things at the same time, but probably not five.

这很有趣，因为感知显然是由大脑控制的，至少部分是大脑和身体，但神经系统，我们本质上有两个注意力聚光灯，这意味着我们可以同时注意两件事，但可能不是五件事。

And we can merge those spotlights, and we can make them more intense, so to speak, or we can dim them and make them more diffuse.

我们可以合并这些聚光灯，可以说，我们可以使它们更加强烈，或者我们可以使它们变暗，使它们更加分散。

There's a bunch of things that we can do with attentional spotlighting.

我们可以利用注意力聚焦做很多事情。

What you're talking about here is attentional spotlighting, bringing people's perception to real things that are happening, but heightening one's perception of those, so getting more granularity on what's happening.

你在这里所说的是注意力聚焦，将人们的感知带入正在发生的真实事件，但提高人们对这些事件的感知，从而更详细地了解正在发生的事情。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like right now, I'm in physical contact with a pen in my hand, but I wasn't thinking about how it feels.

就像现在，我与手中的笔进行身体接触，但我并没有考虑它的感觉。

But if I put all of my perception there, close my eyes and really think about it, the whole nature of the perception changes.

但如果我把所有的感知都放在那里，闭上眼睛并认真思考，感知的整个本质就会改变。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The physical object hasn't changed.

物理对象没有改变。

Nothing else in the room has changed.

房间里的其他东西都没有改变。

But that driving of attentional spotlighting and intensity is essentially what governs our whole reality.

但这种注意力集中和强度的驱动本质上是控制我们整个现实的。

I think of everything we're talking about here, and I can't help but think about media, social media, politics, very third rail issues-

我想到了我们在这里谈论的一切，我情不自禁地想到了媒体、社交媒体、政治、第三轨问题——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Those are two of them

这是其中两个

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

very third rail topics, right?

非常第三轨主题，对吧？

And yet, this is essentially what we do.

然而，这本质上就是我们所做的。

The brain, people want a shorthand way of navigating a very complex world, and media, marketing, et cetera, is in large part designed to capture people's attention, then funnel it towards some specific endpoint.

人们的大脑想要一种简捷的方式来导航一个非常复杂的世界，而媒体、营销等在很大程度上是为了吸引人们的注意力，然后将其引导到某个特定的端点。

Vote this way.

就这样投票吧

Buy this way.

就这样买吧

Don't vote that way, or don't vote that way.

不要那样投票，或者不要那样投票。

And I feel like given our discussion, one has to wonder to what extent we are all living in that, what I guess people call a simulation, but it's not a simulation, it's a we are all being biased by these external forces.

我觉得考虑到我们的讨论，人们不得不想知道我们都生活在多大程度上，我猜人们称之为模拟，但这不是模拟，而是我们都受到这些外部力量的偏见。

Do you see examples of, quote-unquote, magic and mentalist work at the level of media, at the level of-

你是否在媒体层面、在-层面上看到过魔术和心灵主义作品的例子？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Oh, yeah

哦，是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

politics, without talking about sides or centers-

政治，不谈立场或中心——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Of course

当然

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

Yeah.

是的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Of course.

当然。

First of all, I feel like social media has changed the way audience behaves in the theater.

首先，我觉得社交媒体改变了观众在剧院的行为方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Tell me more about that.

告诉我更多相关信息。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So first of all, now you have TikTok and Instagram, and it's really short clips of information, and people go through them really quickly.

首先，现在有了 TikTok 和 Instagram，它们都是非常简短的信息片段，人们可以很快地浏览它们。

So they need to be stimulated way more often than they used to.

因此，他们需要比以前更频繁地受到刺激。

So I can't do a routine now that really drags with long monologues and it's slow.

所以我现在不能做一个真的很拖长的独白而且很慢的例行公事。

The speed changed.

速度变了。

And I think about this a lot.

我对此思考了很多。

There's a blackout when I did Inner Circle.

我拍《Inner Circle》时停电了。

There's a blackout before I appear.

在我出现之前停电了。

So I come in, and I can still see people to the very last minute on their phones, and I'm like, "Wow." They're going from one stimulation to a real stimulation with almost no gap.

所以我进来后，直到最后一刻我仍然可以通过手机看到人们，我的感觉是，“哇。”他们几乎没有间隙地从一种刺激转变为真正的刺激。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

There's not even a second, a buffer, between this stimulation to what I'm about-- And it always bothers me because I want to clean their palate.

在这种刺激和我要做的事情之间甚至没有一秒钟、一个缓冲——它总是困扰着我，因为我想清理他们的味觉。

I want to reset their palate, and it bothers me that-

我想重置他们的味觉，但令我困扰的是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

...

...

they're on a phone.

他们正在打电话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, it's like going from the Super Bowl to the NBA championships or from the ballet to a rock concert.

是的，这就像从超级碗到 NBA 冠军，或者从芭蕾舞到摇滚音乐会。

I actually have a theory, which is that for those that are willing to introduce gaps in stimulation, sleep, we'll talk more about sleep- ...

我实际上有一个理论，那就是对于那些愿意在刺激、睡眠方面引入间隙的人，我们将更多地谈论睡眠——......

rest, walks where we're not looking at our phones or just kind of, not necessarily bored, but that those gaps we know with certainty are when the brain both processes information, stabilizes information that we've learned, and comes up with new ideas.

休息，散步，我们不看手机，或者只是有点，不一定是无聊，但我们确信这些差距是大脑处理信息，稳定我们学到的信息并提出新想法的时候。

It's almost like nowadays, if you want to get really good at some craft, just introduce more gaps in between intense focus and learning around that thing, and exposure to that thing.

这几乎就像现在，如果你想真正擅长某项技能，只需在高度专注和围绕该事物学习以及接触该事物之间引入更多差距。

I couldn't be more certain about this.

我对此非常确定。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's true, and again, Juan, again, Tamariz talks about the power of pauses.

这是真的，胡安，塔马里斯再一次谈到了停顿的力量。

And one of the things we try to do is that people will embed a memory.

我们尝试做的事情之一就是让人们嵌入记忆。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So it's not just that you encode the information, and you want them to store it.

因此，您不仅要对信息进行编码，而且还希望它们存储它。

You also want to store it long term and to be able to recall what they've seen.

您还希望将其长期存储并能够回忆起他们所看到的内容。

Now, if you move from one action to the other, it's just not going to work.

现在，如果你从一种行动转向另一种行动，那就行不通了。

So there's a thing that Juan does where he's holding a card, and he says, "Can you see the reflection in my glasses?" And everybody's like, "What is he doing?" "Look, do you see reflection?" And meanwhile, he's holding a playing card to point towards the glasses.

胡安拿着一张卡片，做了一件事，他说：“你能看到我眼镜上的倒影吗？”每个人都会问：“他在做什么？” “看，你看到倒影了吗？”与此同时，他拿着一张扑克牌指向眼镜。

And then at some point, he places the card on the table, and accidentally, he knocks a glass filled with water everywhere, and people, they start cleaning it, and it's a huge interruption to what just happened.

然后在某个时候，他把卡片放在桌子上，不小心，他把装满水的玻璃杯撞得到处都是，人们开始清理它，这对刚刚发生的事情来说是一个巨大的干扰。

And then he says, "Does anybody know what card this is?" And most of the times, nobody knows.

然后他说：“有人知道这是什么卡吗？”大多数时候，没有人知道。

He goes, "You never saw this card?" And they go, "No, you never showed it to us." "Oh, I never showed it to you?" And there was one event where he did where he replayed the video to them.

他问道：“你从来没有见过这张卡片？”他们说：“不，你从来没有向我们展示过。” “哦，我从来没有给你看过？”在一次活动中，他向他们重播了视频。

He says, "Look, I'm holding it for 15 seconds in front of you in a very awkward way." And they don't remember it.

他说：“看，我以一种非常尴尬的方式在你面前拿着它 15 秒。”他们不记得了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because something dramatic happened immediately afterward.

因为紧接着戏剧性的事情就发生了。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

There's no moment for them to isolate the two events, and the other event was way more impactful, and therefore more memorable, that it erased the small memory, the small event.

他们没有时间将这两件事分开，而另一件事的影响力更大，因此更令人难忘，它抹去了小记忆，小事件。

There's a big event and a smaller event, and that took over.

有一个大事件和一个小事件，然后就发生了。

That's why maybe, I don't know, people crash into, they have an accident, whatever.

这就是为什么，我不知道，人们可能会撞上，发生事故，等等。

They don't remember the 10 or five seconds before.

他们不记得之前的十秒或五秒。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It kind of erases it.

它有点抹掉它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So we often, when we do magic, we do want to give them a moment to really relax and to digest what they've just seen so they can store it very well.

所以我们经常在表演魔术时，确实想让他们有时间真正放松并消化他们刚刚看到的东西，这样他们就可以很好地存储它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If it's something you want them to store.

如果这是您希望他们存储的东西。

But if it's something you want them to forget, then creating a dramatic moment adjacent to it and with no gap is the way to go.

但如果你想让他们忘记这件事，那么在旁边创造一个没有间隙的戏剧性时刻就是正确的方法。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Is something we want to, yes.

是的，是我们想要的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is ex-

这是前

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

We clutter it.

我们把它搞乱了。

We clutter their mind with information when we don't want them to store it.

当我们不希望他们存储信息时，我们就会用信息扰乱他们的头脑。

We will slow down and feature it and give it enough time to breathe and live when we want them to record it.

当我们希望他们录制它时，我们会放慢速度并对其进行特写，并给它足够的时间呼吸和生存。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So the speed, the emphasis, the pauses, all of those things are manipulating how they remember things.

所以速度、重点、停顿，所有这些都在操纵他们记忆事物的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can I share with you a little bit of neuroscience-

我可以和你分享一些神经科学知识吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Please.

请。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

tidbit knowledge?

花絮知识？

This is relevant both to what you just said and to learning of any kind.

这与您刚才所说的以及任何类型的学习都相关。

There's a phenomenon called gap effects, which are very well demonstrated in neuroscience and psychology of learning.

有一种现象称为差距效应，这在神经科学和学习心理学中得到了很好的证明。

But before I explain those, it's really important to know that when we learn, we are exposed to something, and then the actual rewiring of connections in the brain occurs typically during sleep or rest periods away from the learning.

但在我解释这些之前，重要的是要知道，当我们学习时，我们会接触到某些东西，然后大脑中连接的实际重新布线通常发生在学习之外的睡眠或休息期间。

There's the stimulus, just like exercise.

有刺激，就像运动一样。

You don't get better VO2 max and muscle strength, et cetera, during the exercise.

在锻炼过程中，您不会获得更好的最大摄氧量和肌肉力量等。

There's an adaptation that occurs later.

后来发生了一个适应。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And with learning of cognitive material or information of any kind, even if it's very emotionally impactful experience or information, the rewiring of connections occurs later, typically in sleep or sometime later.

通过学习认知材料或任何类型的信息，即使它是对情感影响很大的体验或信息，连接的重新布线也会发生在以后，通常是在睡眠中或稍后的某个时间。

Now, during sleep, the replay of the memory occurs, but at a rate about 20 or 30 times faster, and for some reason, nobody knows why, in reverse.

现在，在睡眠期间，记忆会重播，但速度大约快 20 或 30 倍，并且由于某种原因，没有人知道为什么会相反。

Okay.

好的。

So a string of numbers, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, in sleep is played 30 times faster, and seven, six, five, four, three, two, one.

因此，一串数字，一、二、三、四、五、六、七，在睡眠中播放速度快了 30 倍，还有七、六、五、四、三、二、一。

Nobody has noticed why.

没有人注意到原因。

This is the way the brain encodes information about space, about information of any kind.

这就是大脑编码有关空间、任何类型信息的方式。

Now, gap effects are the very well-demonstrated effect of, let's say you're teaching me how to shuffle cards or a sequence of numbers or scales on a piano.

现在，间隙效应是一种得到充分证明的效应，假设你正在教我如何在钢琴上洗牌或一系列数字或音阶。

I'm practicing, I'm practicing, I'm practicing, but somebody figured out that if every once in a while there's a gap introduced where I cannot perform the rehearsal, I do nothing.

我正在练习，我正在练习，我正在练习，但是有人发现，如果每隔一段时间就会出现一个我无法进行排练的间隙，那么我什么也不做。

The brain does the same thing.

大脑也做同样的事情。

The hippocampus, a center in the brain required for memory and encoding of new memories, plays that same sequence at 20 to 30 times faster-

海马体是大脑中负责记忆和编码新记忆的中心，它以 20 到 30 倍的速度播放相同的序列——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Wow

哇

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in reverse.

相反。

So this way.

所以这样。

So what this means is that when we introduce gaps, the brain is still processing the information, but much faster, and the introduction of the gap somehow allows whatever we just learned to be encoded far more than if we don't introduce a gap.

所以这意味着，当我们引入间隙时，大脑仍在处理信息，但速度要快得多，并且引入间隙在某种程度上允许我们刚刚学到的任何东西被编码得比我们不引入间隙时要多得多。

Which is exactly what you just said, but with a bunch of nerdy neuroscience speak to it.

这正是你刚才所说的，但用一群书呆子的神经科学来说话。

But this has been shown for music, for math-

但这已经在音乐、数学中得到了证明——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Totally

完全

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for conceptual knowledge, et cetera.

概念性知识等等。

And what it says to me is that if we want to learn things, controlling the cadence and the availability of gaps and the adjacency, like how densely cluttered or spaced out things are, is key.

它告诉我的是，如果我们想学习东西，控制节奏以及间隙和相邻的可用性，比如事物的混乱程度或间隔程度，是关键。

And I'll just share briefly, and forgive me because I'm going long here, but the way I remember the video of you with Penn and Teller in the green and white sweater and a few other-

我只是简单地分享一下，请原谅我，因为我在这里讲得很长，但我记得你和佩恩和特勒穿着绿色和白色毛衣以及其他一些人的视频的方式——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Maybe you took a nap right after.

也许你之后就小睡了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, what I do is I watch something or read something, and I sometimes highlight and take notes, but then what I do is I close my eyes, sometimes I take a walk, and I just think about what I just saw.

不，我所做的就是看一些东西或读一些东西，有时我会突出显示并做笔记，但我所做的就是闭上眼睛，有时我会散步，然后我只是思考我刚刚看到的东西。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now, I have a problem, and I was recently referred to as neuroatypical, which I'm starting to wonder if that's true, but I'll get assessed and we'll see.

现在，我有一个问题，最近我被称为神经非典型，我开始怀疑这是否属实，但我会接受评估，我们会看到的。

That oftentimes irrelevant details are what get encoded to memory as opposed to the core feature.

通常，不相关的细节会被编码到内存中，而不是核心功能。

But we'll see.

但我们会看到。

I'd like to think the core components are what I remember.

我想核心组件就是我所记得的。

But often details that seem irrelevant get encoded.

但通常看似无关的细节会被编码。

Like I can remember details of things that are kind of maybe trivial to most.

就像我能记住对大多数人来说可能微不足道的事情的细节一样。

So these gap effects are a real neurobiological phenomenon.

所以这些间隙效应是一种真实的神经生物学现象。

There's no question about it.

毫无疑问。

And I suppose I should pause to let that sink in.

我想我应该停下来让自己明白这一点。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

I know, and people should take a nap right after this.

我知道，人们应该在这之后小睡一会儿。

Go sleep and think about this conversation.

去睡觉吧，想想这次谈话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I think it's so interesting because, so that explains something about encoding of information.

我认为这很有趣，因为这解释了有关信​​息编码的一些内容。

But causing people to forget something is equally important.

但让人们忘记一些事情同样重要。

So oftentimes when you do tricks or when other magicians and mentalists do tricks, I notice that you'll get people to count with you.

很多时候，当你表演魔术或其他魔术师和心灵学家表演魔术时，我注意到你会让人们和你一起数数。

"Okay.

“好吧。

All right, let's just count the cards.

好吧，我们来数一下牌。

Count them with me.

和我一起数一数吧。

It'll be one, two, three." Is there something about the counting itself or the cadence of the counting that is valuable?

将会是一、二、三。”计数本身或计数节奏有什么有价值的地方吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

We try to create tension.

我们试图制造紧张气氛。

It's a drum roll.

这是鼓声。

Think of it as a drum roll all the way to the punchline.

可以把它想象成从鼓点一直到笑点的过程。

And you're trying to create this tension, "Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God," and then it happens, right?

你试图创造这种紧张感，“哦，我的上帝，哦，我的上帝，哦，我的上帝，”然后它就发生了，对吗？

And on the relaxation, the moment right after that, when you relax, that's the moment to do the things you don't want them to encode.

在放松时，在那之后的那一刻，当你放松时，那就是做你不希望他们编码的事情的时刻。

Those are the most vulnerable.

这些人是最脆弱的。

So in other words, when you go to a magic show, do not laugh.

所以换句话来说，当你去看魔术表演时，不要笑。

Do not relax.

不要放松。

Remain tense and you'll be good.

保持紧张，你会好起来的。

But the moment you relax, you're off guard.

但一旦放松，你就会措手不及。

You're not scrutinizing.

你不仔细检查。

You're relaxing.

你很放松。

So we do play a lot, and Slidini was a master of that, the idea of tension and relaxation.

所以我们确实玩了很多，斯利迪尼是这方面的大师，紧张和放松的想法。

So those are just one of the tools that we would use in order to do what we need to do at the right spot.

因此，这些只是我们用来在正确的位置做我们需要做的事情的工具之一。

Look, here's an interesting example.

看，这是一个有趣的例子。

You've heard the term misdirection.

您听说过“误导”这个词。

I think every person in the world have heard and understands the idea of misdirection.

我认为世界上每个人都听说过并理解误导的概念。

A magician is misdirecting you, and yet that information does not help you in the real world.

魔术师正在误导你，但这些信息在现实世界中对你没有帮助。

Right?

正确的？

You know the concept, you know it exists.

你知道这个概念，你知道它存在。

You know a magician will make you look at the wrong place at the wrong time, and you would, or maybe the right place at the right time, and you would still follow.

你知道魔术师会让你在错误的时间看错误的地方，你会的，或者也许在正确的时间看正确的地方，你仍然会跟着。

In other words, knowing the principle, knowing that he's doing it, it's still effective, and that is amazing.

也就是说，知道了原理，知道他在做，仍然有效，那就很了不起了。

So to me, that is the reason I don't mind to enrich people's knowledge about magic and to give a little bit of information of behind a curtain, the things that magicians say, "Oh, we're going to..." There's a beautiful saying that I just love, and I don't know who's responsible for this beautiful quote, but I love it.

所以对我来说，这就是我不介意丰富人们关于魔术的知识并提供一点幕后信息的原因，即魔术师所说的事情，“哦，我们要......”有一句美丽的话我就是喜欢，我不知道谁对这句美丽的话负责，但我喜欢它。

I quote it all the time.

我一直引用它。

People think that magicians are guarding the secrets from the audience, but it's the other way around.

人们认为魔术师正在向观众保守秘密，但事实恰恰相反。

We are guarding the audience from the secrets.

我们正在保护观众不知道这些秘密。

Because we know that once you know how it's done, you won't enjoy it.

因为我们知道，一旦您知道它是如何完成的，您就不会喜欢它。

But I believe also that there's a level of knowledge that you can know about magic that next time you see a magician, you will enjoy it more because you understand that to do one card trick could take months and months of work, and we think about every word and every move and how we interact and how we hook you into wanting to be fooled, create the desire for you to see magic.

但我也相信，你可以了解一定程度的关于魔术的知识，下次你见到魔术师时，你会更喜欢它，因为你知道完成一个纸牌戏法可能需要数月的工作，而我们会考虑每一个字、每一个动作、我们如何互动以及我们如何吸引你想要被愚弄，创造让你看到魔术的欲望。

And it's such an intricate process.

这是一个非常复杂的过程。

So maybe, revealing a little bit about magic is not a bad thing, so you understand the complexity of this art, which unfortunately is invisible art, because a pianist, sure, you can see how skillful I am.

所以也许，透露一点关于魔法的知识并不是一件坏事，这样你就了解了这门艺术的复杂性，不幸的是，这门艺术是无形的艺术，因为一个钢琴家，当然，你可以看到我有多熟练。

But if you come to me after a show and say, "Oh, you're so fast with your hands," that's an insult.

但如果你在演出结束后来找我说，“哦，你的手太快了”，那就是一种侮辱。

I want you to say, "But you never touched anything." So it's a bit of a conflict here.

我想让你说：“但你从来没有碰过任何东西。”所以这里有点冲突。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like the show that I saw that you did in New York right off Washington Square Park, you didn't touch any of the cards or materials.

就像我在纽约华盛顿广场公园看到的那个节目，你没有碰任何卡片或材料。

The audience did it all for you, which are the inner circle.

观众为你做了这一切，他们是内圈。

You had people actually maneuvering the cards and doing things.

人们实际上在操纵牌并做事。

They weren't collaborating with you.

他们没有和你合作。

In fact, it made it far less likely that you ought to be able to do what you were doing, which is remarkable.

事实上，它让你更不可能做你正在做的事情，这是值得注意的。

I think that as you're describing this, I can't help but feel that the understanding of mechanism or how it's done just a little bit is a little bit of what I've tried to do with the podcast, where I think people obviously want to know what to do for their health, but if they understand a little bit of the mechanism behind it, maybe a lot of the mechanism in some cases, then I think it enriches their understanding and gives them flexibility when things are perhaps not optimal.

我认为，正如你所描述的那样，我不禁感到对机制或它是如何完成的一点点的理解是我在播客中尝试做的一点点，我认为人们显然想知道如何为他们的健康做些什么，但如果他们了解其背后的一点点机制，也许在某些情况下了解很多机制，那么我认为这会丰富他们的理解，并在事情可能不是最佳的时候给他们灵活性。

It's sort of like someone learning a recipe, versus understanding why you add a little bit of baking soda, so that when there isn't any baking soda, maybe there's an alternative or you make an adjustment someplace else, right?

这有点像有人学习食谱，而不是理解为什么要添加一点小苏打，这样当没有小苏打时，也许有替代方案，或者你在其他地方进行调整，对吗？

That's what a real cook can do , as opposed to somebody just following a recipe.

这就是真正的厨师可以做到的，而不是仅仅遵循菜谱的人。

I think that with magic, this takes us back to the first question.

我认为有了魔法，这让我们回到了第一个问题。

I think with magic, it's so exciting to me that the magician, the mentalist themselves might not get it right.

我认为魔术对我来说是如此令人兴奋，以至于魔术师、心灵学家自己可能无法正确理解。

Like if I know you're going to get it right, it's exciting because if I bring someone else along that's never seen it before, but what I want to know is that the trapeze artist could fall.

就像如果我知道你会做对一样，这很令人兴奋，因为如果我带上以前从未见过的其他人一起去，但我想知道的是，空中飞人艺术家可能会摔倒。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't want them to fall, but the idea that they could fall is what makes it really exciting.

我不想让他们跌倒，但他们可能跌倒的想法才是真正令人兴奋的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Absolutely, and we fake it a lot.

绝对的，而且我们经常伪造它。

There's a lot of times where I will intentionally create a scenario where it seems like it's not going right, I'm in trouble, and I need to get out of it, and you go, "Oh, he's good, but this one, no." And then you realize, oh, it was a part of the illusion.

很多时候，我会故意创造一个场景，看起来事情进展不顺利，我遇到了麻烦，我需要摆脱它，然后你就会说，“哦，他很好，但这个不行。”然后你意识到，哦，这是幻觉的一部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And this is like every-

这就像每一个——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Even the trouble was an illusion.

就连麻烦也只是幻觉。

Don't trust anything.

不要相信任何东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt there.

抱歉，我不是有意打扰的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You paused for me to remember, and I interrupted.

你停下来让我回忆，我打断了你。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Because I want you to digest it.

因为我想让你消化它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

This is built into every script of every romantic comedy and every action movie.

这已融入到每部浪漫喜剧和每部动作片的剧本中。

Like everything's, there's a challenge, then there's moving forward, and then things are about to go well, and then, oh, my goodness, they're on the wrong trains.

就像所有事情一样，先有挑战，然后继续前进，然后事情即将进展顺利，然后，哦，天哪，他们上错车了。

It's going to be a disa- And then that's the tension build, and then there's resolution of some sort.

这将是一场灾难——然后紧张局势就会加剧，然后就会有某种解决方案。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then sometimes there's a twist at the end where the resolution isn't there, and that's how you get a sequel, right?

有时最后会出现转折，没有解决方案，这就是续集的方式，对吧？

It's kind of the same-

有点像——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

thing.

事。

I wonder, and I hope that someday neuroscience will understand the kind of what the core algorithms in the brain are for a story.

我想知道，我希望有一天神经科学能够理解故事的大脑核心算法是什么。

A story that involves a question and a hypothesis, some characters, and some trajectory, a potential error, and then some resolution, and then maybe it opens up the possibility of mystery again.

一个故事，涉及一个问题和一个假设，一些人物，一些轨迹，一个潜在的错误，然后一些解决方案，然后也许它再次开启了神秘的可能性。

Because as you describe a magic trick or a mentalist act, it seems to follow that sequence.

因为当你描述魔术或心灵主义行为时，它似乎遵循这个顺序。

You introduce the people, the cards, the props, et cetera, and then there's a story.

你介绍人物、卡片、道具等等，然后就是一个故事。

And here's what's interesting.

有趣的是。

I see this in comedy also.

我在喜剧中也看到了这一点。

One of the things that's exciting is when we think we know what's going to happen next.

令人兴奋的事情之一是当我们认为我们知道接下来会发生什么时。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's either that we are very surprised, there's a violation of the expectation, but even more interesting sometimes is when we're like, "No. No, no, no, no, no." Where we think that something's going to happen and you're actually taking us towards that Unbelievable possibility.

要么我们非常惊讶，这违反了预期，但更有趣的是有时我们会说，“不，不，不，不，不，不。”当我们认为某件事将会发生时，你实际上正在带领我们走向令人难以置信的可能性。

This is something I find amazing that sometimes even when we expect something, or especially when we expect something, if it's an outrageous outcome, there's no way.

这是我觉得很神奇的事情，有时即使我们期待某事，或者特别是当我们期待某事时，如果结果令人震惊，那就没有办法。

That's when we are most excited.

那是我们最兴奋的时候。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Because we're involved.

因为我们参与其中。

We're part of the drama.

我们是戏剧的一部分。

So I love what you said about the idea of a recipe, Mike, following verbatim in a passive way.

所以我喜欢你所说的关于食谱的想法，迈克，以被动的方式逐字记录。

I don't know how it works, but eventually think this would lead me to a cake somehow, as opposed to understand what the chemistry is and why this happens and why this and that.

我不知道它是如何工作的，但最终认为这会以某种方式引导我吃蛋糕，而不是理解化学是什么以及为什么会发生这种情况以及为什么这样那样。

I think that you become more invested, and you are part of the act.

我认为你会变得更加投入，并且你成为了行动的一部分。

So it's almost like when I am obsessed also with painting, something that I just do often.

所以这几乎就像我也沉迷于绘画一样，这是我经常做的事情。

And I remember, I can easily recall the experience I had when I went to a museum and watched some art before I painted, and the way I view it today as a painter, as someone who's touched pigments, mixed them, put them on a canvas or paper, and all of a sudden, I look at it a little differently.

我记得，我可以很容易地回忆起我在绘画之前去博物馆观看一些艺术作品时的经历，以及今天作为一名画家，作为一个触摸颜料、混合它们、将它们放在画布或纸上的人看待它的方式，突然之间，我对它的看法有点不同。

And I think it changes the interaction that I have with the painting because I understand the language, I understand the struggle, I understand the challenge, I understand all of that.

我认为它改变了我与绘画的互动，因为我理解语言，我理解斗争，我理解挑战，我理解所有这一切。

And it's the same with anything, like when you read one of my favorite reads of all time, and to this date, is Van Gogh's letters.

任何事情都是一样的，就像当你读到我一直以来最喜欢的读物之一时，到目前为止，这就是梵高的信。

I remember I saw Van Gogh before, I saw it after.

我记得我以前见过梵高，后来也见过。

And the story, and that's why I think we can talk about AI for a second, but the story of the letters with the paintings make them complete different images.

还有故事，这就是为什么我认为我们可以讨论一下人工智能，但是字母与绘画的故事使它们完成了不同的图像。

When I see now the sunflowers or the chairs or the landscapes, and I have some context to go by, they become a part of a much bigger story.

当我现在看到向日葵、椅子或风景时，我有一些背景可以参考，它们成为一个更大故事的一部分。

And to me, that enhances the experience.

对我来说，这增强了体验。

So a few friends, me and a couple of my friends went to a museum at The Met, and there was a beautiful wooden sphere, half opened like that, and the detail was like you need a microscope to see and to appreciate the delicate carving of the wood.

所以我和我的几个朋友去了大都会博物馆，那里有一个漂亮的木球，像那样半打开，细节就像你需要显微镜才能看到和欣赏木头的精致雕刻一样。

And we all looked at it in awe.

我们都敬畏地看着它。

It was like, it's amazing.

就像，这太神奇了。

And I said to them, "You look at it and you see the year it's from, the 1800s," and you go, "Wow, the technology they had in the 1800s to do that and the patience and the time," all of it is part of the artwork.

我对他们说，“你看它，你会看到它来自 1800 年代，”然后你会说，“哇，他们在 1800 年代拥有做到这一点的技术、耐心和时间，”所有这些都是艺术品的一部分。

What if I told you, "Hey, we fooled you.

如果我告诉你：“嘿，我们愚弄了你。

This was 3D-printed 20 minutes ago.

这是 20 分钟前 3D 打印的。

It took about five minutes, and we can make a million of them right now." It's the exact same object.

大约花了五分钟，我们现在就可以制作一百万个。”这是完全相同的物体。

It looks as impressive, but the story is different.

看起来同样令人印象深刻，但故事却有所不同。

And I think that is, again, part of the experience we have.

我认为这也是我们经验的一部分。

A recipe, when you understand it, the experience you have is different.

一份菜谱，当你理解了它，你的体验就不一样了。

So I do believe that knowledge really can enhance an experience, change it completely.

所以我确实相信知识确实可以增强体验，彻底改变它。

So that's something I'm big on.

这就是我很看重的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Stories seem to be the kind of bento box that arranges information best, in my opinion.

在我看来，故事似乎是一种最能整理信息的便当盒。

For those that don't know, bento box, right?

对于那些不知道的人来说，便当盒，对吗？

Like a-

就像一个-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes, it's Japanese

是的，是日语

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

box with all the different compartments, and you have different things.

盒子里有不同的隔层，你有不同的东西。

Okay.

好的。

Let's just acknowledge some first principles, ground truths.

让我们承认一些首要原则和基本事实。

We can only perceive a certain number of things at any one time, but we're sensing tons of information, so the brain is a selective filter and a prediction machine.

我们在任何时候只能感知一定数量的事物，但我们正在感知大量的信息，因此大脑是一台选择性过滤器和一台预测机器。

And it does a bunch of other things to keep us alive, but that's basically it.

它还做了很多其他事情来让我们活下去，但基本上就是这样。

All my neuroscience colleagues are probably like, "Wait, wait, wait, but what about this?" Okay, but that's pretty much it.

我所有的神经科学同事可能都会说，“等等，等等，等等，但这怎么样？”好吧，但差不多就是这样了。

Keep us alive, predict things, and perceive certain things that we can sense, not others.

让我们保持活力，预测事物，并感知某些我们能感觉到的事物，而不是其他事物。

Things outside our sensory apparatus, like infrared vision and sensing certain forms of heat and electromagnetic energy.

我们的感觉器官之外的事物，例如红外视觉和感知某些形式的热能和电磁能。

Some yes, some no. Depends on what animal you are.

有些是，有些不是。取决于你是什么动物。

So, okay.

那么，好吧。

So stories and the sequencing of things seems to be one way in which we best learn information.

因此，故事和事物的顺序似乎是我们学习信息的最佳方式之一。

From the time we are very little, we are read stories, and our lives play out like stories.

从我们很小的时候起，我们就读故事，我们的生活也像故事一样展开。

So I think that the idea that additional information about context, this is from the 1800s, not just the box that it's encapsulated in, but it gives you a sense this is important.

所以我认为关于上下文的附加信息的想法来自 1800 年代，而不仅仅是封装它的盒子，但它让你感觉到这很重要。

It's old.

它很旧了。

It tells you this was harder to do back then.

它告诉你这在当时很难做到。

Hard, presumably.

大概很难。

And then, as you said, it brings to mind all these ideas about what went into that.

然后，正如你所说，它让我想起了所有这些关于其中的想法。

Like the pyramids.

就像金字塔一样。

They're very, very interesting, but especially interesting given when they were built.

它们非常非常有趣，但考虑到它们的建造时间，尤其有趣。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

And what that meant for certain people and not for others.

这对于某些人而不是其他人意味着什么。

So there's that, which I think is so key because it extends way past magic.

这就是我认为非常关键的一点，因为它远远超出了魔法的范围。

This is really about how the brain works and learns information and perceives the world in moments and what we remember, what we don't remember.

这实际上是关于大脑如何工作、学习信息、感知世界的瞬间以及我们记得什么、不记得什么。

And then there's another thing that I'd like to touch into, and maybe we touch into this first, which is that you mentioned that you paint.

然后我想谈一谈，也许我们首先谈这一点，那就是你提到你画画。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I've come to learn that many people who are virtuosos in their craft, as you are, have hobbies or practices or things that they do that are sort of adjacent to craft.

所以我逐渐了解到，许多像你一样的技艺精湛的人，都有与技艺相关的爱好、做法或事情。

I think Joni Mitchell, the singer, often talked about painting as a way to get into a mindset of singing, even though that wasn't the specific intention.

我认为歌手乔尼·米切尔经常谈论绘画作为进入歌唱心态的一种方式，尽管这并不是具体的意图。

It just kind of led there a little bit like a sprinter might have, I don't know, some dynamic stretching that they do that's sort of semi-related but not the main thing.

它只是有点像短跑运动员可能会做的一些动态拉伸，我不知道，这是半相关的，但不是主要的事情。

Or maybe they would listen to music and kind of bounce around to the music.

或者他们可能会听音乐并随着音乐弹跳。

Maybe that's a better example.

也许这是一个更好的例子。

So it's not directly in line with the practice, but it puts the brain circuits that are required for that practice into a certain mode.

所以它并不直接符合练习，而是将练习所需的大脑回路置于某种模式中。

For you, maybe it's painting.

对你来说，也许就是绘画。

For me, it's drawing.

对我来说，就是画画。

How often do you paint?

你多久画一次画？

What do you paint?

你画什么？

And do you paint with the intention of anyone ever seeing your paintings?

你画画的目的是为了让任何人都能看到你的画吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

I'm not sure.

我不知道。

I post them in my show.

我将它们发布在我的节目中。

It was an opportunity for me to make a portrait of all of my heroes.

这是我为我所有的英雄拍摄肖像的机会。

So it was a mini exhibition as people walked into the theater to see all those portraits of the people that affected me, touched, influenced me, and so forth.

所以这是一个小型展览，人们走进剧院观看所有那些影响过我、触动过我、影响过我等等的人的肖像。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Magicians, too?

魔术师也有吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

I would say most of them.

我想说的是其中的大多数。

Avner was there, too.

艾夫纳也在场。

He's not a magician per se.

他本身并不是魔术师。

He's also a magician.

他也是一名魔术师。

But yeah, mainly magicians.

但是，是的，主要是魔术师。

Houdini, Millini, Tommy Wonder, Chan Canasta, David Blaine, people that really are part of who I am today.

胡迪尼、米利尼、汤米·旺德、陈·卡纳斯塔、大卫·布莱恩，这些人确实是我今天的一部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So to me, that's an aspect of its own.

所以对我来说，这是它自己的一个方面。

Why do I paint these people?

我为什么要画这些人？

Is because it's an opportunity for me to meditate with these people that I adore and owe so much to.

因为这是我与这些我所崇拜和感激的人一起冥想的机会。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

But why do I paint?

但我为什么要画画？

First of all, it's intuitive.

首先，它很直观。

It was not a cerebral decision, "Oh, I think I need something to supplement my life and I need painting." I always love to work with my hands.

这并不是一个理智的决定，“哦，我想我需要一些东西来补充我的生活，我需要画画。”我总是喜欢用手工作。

I always love to draw.

我一直喜欢画画。

I love imagery.

我喜欢图像。

I love design.

我喜欢设计。

And I always gravitated towards wanting to paint.

我总是倾向于绘画。

And by the way, most of the things I do, I don't look at them through a scientific point of view.

顺便说一句，我所做的大多数事情，我都没有从科学的角度来看待它们。

It's I do them intuitively, and then later, I understand in a more scientific way why, or I ask scientific questions, why am I doing those things?

我凭直觉做这些事，然后，我以更科学的方式理解为什么，或者我提出科学问题，我为什么要做这些事情？

And I think for art, it's important.

我认为对于艺术来说，这很重要。

Start with intuition, start with what makes sense to you or feels right, and then start asking questions, the whys and hows, and what does it mean?

从直觉开始，从对你来说有意义或感觉正确的事情开始，然后开始提出问题，为什么和如何做，以及它意味着什么？

Painting in itself, there's lots of science.

绘画本身，​​就有很多科学道理。

If you mix blue with yellow, every time, you're going to get green.

如果将蓝色与黄色混合，每次都会得到绿色。

That's science.

这就是科学。

But when you paint, I think you need to forget about the science.

但当你画画时，我认为你需要忘记科学。

It needs to live in the back of your mind, and you need to let your, I don't know what, your spirit, your mojo take over and paint with you.

它需要存在于你的内心深处，你需要让你的，我不知道是什么，你的精神，你的魔力接管并与你一起绘画。

But I started to learn so much about magic from painting, and I tell you why.

但我开始从绘画中学到很多关于魔法的知识，我告诉你原因。

You need a bird eye every now and then.

你时不时地需要鸟瞰。

You need to detach yourself from something that you do so much of, and you build all these biases, right?

你需要将自己从你经常做的事情中抽离出来，然后你就产生了所有这些偏见，对吗？

When I approach a trick or work on a trick, I come with a similar approach.

当我接近一个技巧或练习一个技巧时，我会采用类似的方法。

It almost becomes formulaic, and formula is poison for art.

它几乎变得公式化，而公式对于艺术来说是毒药。

When you approach something with a predetermined, preconceived notion of doing something, you might repeat yourself so much that it's boring, and you're not allowing yourself to grow and to maybe find things that you never knew existed in you or outside of you.

当你以预先确定的、先入为主的做某事的想法来处理某事时，你可能会重复自己太多，以至于变得无聊，并且你不允许自己成长，也不允许自己发现你从未知道存在于你内部或外部的东西。

So painting, in a weird way, when I read biographies of, let's say, Lucian Freud, who I really love, and he's talking about art, at some point, I feel like I'm reading a magic book.

因此，以一种奇怪的方式绘画，当我读到我真正喜欢的卢西恩·弗洛伊德的传记时，他正在谈论艺术，在某些时候，我感觉自己正在读一本魔法书。

It's so applicable to magic.

它非常适用于魔法。

He's talking about intention.

他在谈论意图。

He's talking about, I'm going to misquote him for sure, he says, "Every time I approach a canvas, I approach it as if it's the first painting I've ever painted." And he says, "To take it even further, a painting that was ever painted." Because he wants to approach it with the attitude of a student, with the naiveté, with the virginity of first time.

他说，我肯定会错误地引用他的话，他说，“每次我接近画布时，我都会接近它，就好像这是我画的第一幅画一样。”他说：“更进一步说，这是一幅曾经被画过的画。”因为他想以学生的态度、天真、第一次的童真来对待它。

So you don't repeat the same shtick.

所以你不会重复同样的伎俩。

"Oh, ah, you do this.

“啊啊啊，你就这么做吧。

S, K, and oh, I've done this before.

S、K，哦，我以前做过这个。

I can do this again." You kind of want to divorce yourself from all these things you know and start the search again from as close as possible to this first time, because there's something beautiful about that.

我可以再做一次。”你有点想摆脱所有这些你所知道的事情，并从尽可能接近第一次的地方重新开始搜索，因为这有一些美好的东西。

There's a technique that painters use.

画家使用一种技术。

Andrew Wyeth did it a lot.

安德鲁·怀斯做了很多这样的事。

He will paint the painting.

他将画这幅画。

He would look at it.

他会看一下。

He says, "Something is wrong about it, and I don't know what.

他说：“事情有些不对劲，但我不知道是什么。

There's something about this painting that just does not work." Then he would take the painting and look at it with a mirror.

这幅画有些地方行不通。”然后他会拿着这幅画，用镜子看它。

So he looks at the reflection of the painting.

于是他看着画上的倒影。

So he flips the image very much like the way we think it might.

所以他就像我们想象的那样翻转了图像。

And when he looks at the reflection, he goes, "Ah, the nose is wrong." He couldn't see it.

当他看到倒影时，他说：“啊，鼻子不对。”他看不到。

When he looked at it, he couldn't see that the room was off or distorted.

当他看去时，他看不出房间有关闭或扭曲。

But when he saw the reflection, he could.

但当他看到倒影时，他就可以了。

Because he was able to cancel his biases.

因为他能够消除自己的偏见。

He saw almost a cousin painting of the one he just made.

他看到的几乎是他刚刚创作的一幅表弟画作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Which is a beautiful thing.

这是一件美好的事情。

But this analogy also, I think, acts for me with magic.

但我认为这个类比对我来说也具有魔力。

It's a way for me to look at magic from a mirror, to look at it differently, from a different angle.

这是我从镜子中看待魔法的一种方式，从不同的角度以不同的方式看待它。

Because art, I find that the arts are very much connected.

因为艺术，我发现艺术之间有很大的联系。

There's so much similarities.

有很多相似之处。

And when I lecture to magicians about magic, I quote art books more than I quote magic books.

当我向魔术师讲授魔术时，我引用的艺术书籍多于魔术书籍。

I quote Cervantes from Don Quixote about magic .

关于魔法，我引用了《堂吉诃德》中塞万提斯的话。

Someone wrote a book in the 1600s, and he talks about what we like to call the two impossible theory, not the two perfect theory, the two impossible theory.

有人在 1600 年代写了一本书，他谈到了我们喜欢称之为“两个不可能理论”的东西，而不是“两个完美理论”，“两个不可能理论”。

And he talks about that perfection in writing is restraining exaggeration.

他谈到写作的完美就是抑制夸张。

And it's a whole paragraph about that art needs to be believable.

这是一整段关于艺术需要可信的内容。

There has to be truth in it to be enjoyed.

必须有真理才能让人享受。

And it's so much true for magic.

对于魔法来说也是如此。

Even when we do something that's impossible, I still want the ground to be plausible Maybe this could happen.

即使我们做了一些不可能的事情，我仍然希望理由是合理的也许这可能会发生。

Therefore, I need to restrain exaggeration.

因此，我需要克制夸张。

I need to restrain the impossibility.

我需要克制这种不可能性。

And that again, this is a novel from the 1600s, "Don Quixote," my favorite book of all time, teaching us about magic.

再说一次，这是一本 1600 年代的小说，《堂吉诃德》，我一直以来最喜欢的书，教我们有关魔法的知识。

And Lucian Freud is teaching me about magic, and Andrew Wyeth, and Van Gogh, and all these people.

卢西恩·弗洛伊德正在教我有关魔法、安德鲁·怀斯、梵高以及所有这些人的知识。

So I think that's why I love this diversity of, I love photography very much.

所以我想这就是为什么我喜欢这种多样性，我非常喜欢摄影。

I always have a camera with me, film photography, I love.

我总是带着相机，胶片摄影，我喜欢。

And composition.

和组成。

No one uses that word usually adjacent to magic.

没有人使用这个通常与魔法相邻的词。

They never talk about, "Oh, it's a composition." But if you understand a composition and you apply it to magic, you have a whole new way of looking at how to create a piece of magic, just by using that word, that term, that painters and photographers use.

他们从不谈论“哦，这是一首作曲”。但如果你理解了构图并将其应用于魔术，你就会以一种全新的方式来看待如何创造一件魔术，只需使用画家和摄影师使用的那个词、那个术语。

So that's, to me, just an amazing reason, a good reason to paint.

所以，对我来说，这是一个令人惊奇的理由，一个绘画的好理由。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that you're touching into some of the core modulars, the ground truths of art and of magic and how they overlap, because what we're really talking about here are ways in which the brain works, stories, and this restraining exaggeration.

我喜欢你触及一些核心模块、艺术和魔法的基本事实以及它们如何重叠，因为我们在这里真正讨论的是大脑的工作方式、故事和这种克制的夸张。

I'll just share two things.

我只分享两件事。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'll try and keep it brief.

我会尽量保持简短。

One is that, again, Rick Rubin, incredibly virtuoso at the level of creativity and bringing out people's best in terms of music, other domains too, but mostly music, often says that the art has to have some recognizable feature, like this is this artist that people have perhaps heard before, but then something new.

其一是，里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）在创造力方面令人难以置信的艺术大师，在音乐和其他领域（但主要是音乐）方面发挥了人们的最佳水平，他经常说艺术必须具有一些可识别的特征，就像这位艺术家人们可能以前听过，但随后又出现了新的东西。

But you can't completely depart from what was done before.

但你不能完全背离以前所做的事情。

There has to be some recognition.

必须有一些认可。

You also talked about wiping away, of using a completely new canvas, this example you gave.

您还谈到了擦拭，使用全新的画布，您给出的这个例子。

When Rick came to our studio here, he looked around, and he goes, "Oh, I like this place." He's very into physical spaces, and the walls here are black, and there's some other stuff, too.

当 Rick 来到我们的工作室时，他环顾四周，说道：“哦，我喜欢这个地方。”他非常喜欢物理空间，这里的墙壁是黑色的，还有一些其他的东西。

And he said, well, because both Rick and I came up through punk rock music, and he's like, "Yeah, I think a smaller place, black walls, cool." His studio is mostly white.

他说，好吧，因为里克和我都是通过朋克摇滚音乐长大的，他说，“是的，我认为一个较小的地方，黑墙，很酷。”他的工作室大部分都是白色的。

But then he said, "But I'd get rid of all the art and the plants." And I said, "Why?" And he said, "Because it's distracting." He doesn't have art or awards on his walls.

但后来他说：“但我会扔掉所有的艺术品和植物。”我说：“为什么？”他说：“因为这会分散注意力。”他的墙上没有艺术品或奖项。

It's all blank so that every new project is a completely new project.

一切都是空白的，因此每个新项目都是一个全新的项目。

There's no-

没有-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

That's interesting

这很有趣

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

previous stimuli entering the picture.

先前的刺激进入画面。

It's a new project.

这是一个新项目。

So you don't want pictures of awards that you won for that album or anything.

所以你不需要你因该专辑或其他任何东西而获得的奖项的照片。

I go, "What do you do with all that stuff?" And he's like, "Oh, just get rid of it."

我问：“你用这些东西做什么？”他说：“哦，把它扔掉吧。”

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Me too, by the way.

顺便说一句，我也是。

I totally understand that.

我完全理解这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Very interesting.

非常有趣。

So clean slate.

如此干净的石板。

Then the other thing that just is so striking to me is this idea that there has to be something that is a truth, a mathematical or a physical truth present in art.

另一件让我如此震惊的事情是这样的想法：艺术中必须存在某种真理，数学或物理真理。

One of the best ways that one can understand how the brain creates perceptions is that the brain creates abstractions of what's out in the outside world.

人们理解大脑如何产生感知的最好方法之一是大脑对外部世界进行抽象。

Light, sound, touch, smell, taste come in, but that's all translated to electrical and chemical signals, and then the brain reconstructs an image.

光、声音、触觉、气味、味道进来，但这些都被转化为电信号和化学信号，然后大脑重建图像。

By the way, the lens of the eye, you'll find this interesting as a photographer, inverts and reverses the image-

顺便说一下，作为摄影师，你会发现眼睛的晶状体很有趣，它可以颠倒和颠倒图像-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

so that when it lands in the brain, the neural retina, first stage of visual processing, I'm looking at you, you're right side up, but the perception in my brain is that you're upside down and flipped.

这样，当它到达大脑、神经视网膜、视觉处理的第一阶段时，我看着你，你是正面朝上的，但我大脑的感知是你是上下颠倒和翻转的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

I am.

我是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now you got me.

现在你抓住了我。

You had me for a second.

你有我一秒钟。

I am, too.

我也是。

And then the brain reconstructs an upright image.

然后大脑重建一个直立的图像。

It's really wild.

真的很狂野。

So the brain is constantly making abstractions about what's out there.

所以大脑不断地对外面的事物进行抽象。

So if I were to, say, take a photograph of you and show you a picture of your face, you'd say, "Yeah, that's me." But if I said, "Aha, but I'm an abstract artist, and to me you look like," and I basically do a bunch of squiggles and a thing, and I show you, and it doesn't look anything like your face, you'd say, "Yeah, I don't see it." However, if I somehow have the artistic genius, which I don't, to create an image of you where the eyes are distorted, their position, or maybe the shading, something is different in a way that lets you see and other people see your face in a way that is similar enough to Assi Wind that we recognize you, but different enough that it looks interesting.

因此，如果我给你拍一张照片并向你展示你的脸部照片，你会说：“是的，那就是我。”但如果我说，“啊哈，但我是一个抽象艺术家，对我来说你看起来像，”我基本上做了一堆曲线和一个东西，然后我给你看，它看起来一点也不像你的脸，你会说，“是的，我没有看到它。”然而，如果我有某种艺术天赋（而我没有）来创造一个你的眼睛扭曲、位置或者阴影的图像，那么在某种程度上就会有所不同，让你看到和其他人看到你的脸，这种方式与阿西风足够相似，我们认出了你，但又足够不同，看起来很有趣。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We're effectively creating the kind of abstraction that the brain creates, like some level of interest in an emotion or in something, right?

我们正在有效地创造大脑创造的那种抽象，比如对某种情感或某件事的某种程度的兴趣，对吗？

A reflection in your eye.

你眼中的倒影。

Could be, who knows, right?

可能是，谁知道呢，对吧？

And so the brain is an abstraction machine.

所以大脑是一个抽象机器。

It doesn't actually know what's out there.

它实际上并不知道外面有什么。

It's taking best guesses.

它正在采取最好的猜测。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so I think when we see great art, it's able to capture enough of the real physical truth of that thing, but to touch into some of the ways in which the brain abstracts.

所以我认为，当我们看到伟大的艺术时，它能够充分捕捉到事物的真实物理真相，同时触及大脑抽象的一些方式。

I'll give one more example.

我再举一个例子。

Rothkos, which are simply, to some people who don't like them, I love Rothkos-

罗斯科斯，对于一些不喜欢他们的人来说，简单地说，我爱罗斯科斯-

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

I do

我愿意

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

are simply color on canvas.

只是画布上的颜色。

But Rothko, whether or not he intended it or not, did something absolutely spectacular with his art, which was he eliminated the white space in the canvas, and in doing so, was able to allow things to come forward in color space, as we call in visual neuroscience.

但罗斯科，无论他是否有意，他的艺术做了一些绝对令人惊叹的事情，那就是他消除了画布中的空白，并通过这样做，能够让事物在色彩空间中出现，正如我们在视觉神经科学中所说的那样。

Certain colors are not visible unless they are adjacent to other colors.

某些颜色除非与其他颜色相邻，否则是不可见的。

And when you eliminate all the white space, the canvas, and you take away the frame, then colors that you haven't seen before and color transitions that you can't see pop.

当你消除所有的空白、画布并拿走框架时，你以前从未见过的颜色和你看不到的颜色过渡就会流行起来。

And that's the brilliance of a Rothko.

这就是罗斯科的才华。

It's not that it's two colors in a square and a rectangle, and this is why they're worth millions and millions of dollars.

并不是说它是正方形和长方形的两种颜色，这就是它们价值数百万美元的原因。

They're so spectacular because they capture a physical truth about color space that's inaccessible in a framed painting or a painting that includes some visibility of the canvas.

它们之所以如此引人注目，是因为它们捕捉到了有关色彩空间的物理真相，而这在装框绘画或包含画布部分可见性的绘画中是无法实现的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So Rothko shows us color space, the math of how the brain produces color contrast, and hue and wavelength intensity, and color is also intimately tied to value in the brain in a very interesting way.

因此，罗斯科向我们展示了色彩空间，即大脑如何产生色彩对比度、色调和波长强度的数学，并且色彩还以一种非常有趣的方式与大脑中的价值密切相关。

And we're not looking at it thinking all that, but we feel something that's like, if we appreciate Rothkos, like, "Hmm, that's interesting.

我们并没有考虑所有这些，但我们会感觉到，如果我们欣赏罗斯科斯，就像，“嗯，这很有趣。

That captivates me." Does that make sense?

这让我着迷。”这有道理吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

No, I have a question to you.

不，我有个问题要问你。

Do we know that Rothko did it through that lens of understanding-

我们知道罗斯科是通过理解的镜头做到这一点的吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Probably not

可能不会

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

...

...

the science you just described, or did he just intuitively felt this is a great composition, these are great color scheme, and I will do that?

你刚才描述的科学，还是他只是直觉地觉得这是一个很棒的构图，这些都是很棒的配色方案，我会这样做？

What do we know?

我们知道什么？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's most likely the latter.

最有可能的是后者。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a colleague, Bevil Conway, who's at the National Institutes of Health, who's far more versed in this stuff than I am, so he might correct me.

我有一位同事，Bevil Conway，在美国国立卫生研究院工作，他比我更精通这方面的知识，所以他可能会纠正我。

I'd love to get him on the podcast sometime.

我很想找个时间让他加入播客。

But it's very likely that Rothko felt something upon seeing colors in a restricted kind of tunnel of vision and then realized that if this could be brought to scale, because Rothkos tend to be pretty large, then something special was happening.

但罗斯科很可能在有限的视野中看到颜色时感受到了一些东西，然后意识到如果这可以按比例进行，因为罗斯科往往相当大，那么就会发生一些特别的事情。

Sort of like Chuck Close took tiny little images of faces.

有点像查克·克洛斯拍摄了一些微小的面孔图像。

Now, he had a visual issue with faces-

现在，他的脸部出现视觉问题——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Correct

正确

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

prosopagnosia, et cetera.

面容失认症等。

So people can look that up, failure to recognize faces as faces.

所以人们可以查一下，但无法将面孔识别为面孔。

They just look like objects, and realized that he could create composites of these things as a big face, and it's a very different experience to look at a face that's made up of tiny fragments of many, many faces.

它们看起来就像物体，并意识到他可以将这些东西合成为一张大脸，而看着一张由许多面孔的微小碎片组成的脸是一种非常不同的体验。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now, here's where it gets interesting because there are many, many artists that sit out in front of museums like The Met and sell paintings that are very inexpensive, that are very accurate renditions of things.

现在，这就是它变得有趣的地方，因为有很多很多艺术家坐在像大都会博物馆这样的博物馆前，出售非常便宜的画作，这些画作非常准确地再现了事物。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Picture of Taylor Swift, picture of Bob Marley.

泰勒·斯威夫特的照片，鲍勃·马利的照片。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not interesting.

没意思。

It's cool they can do it, or the real kind of curbside trickery.

他们能做到这一点真是太酷了，或者说是真正的路边骗术。

Take a painting, paint in front of people.

拿一幅画，在人们面前画。

What's he or she doing?

他或她在做什么？

And then flip it over, it's the person.

再翻过来，就是人了。

Wah, wah.

哇，哇。

It's cool in the moment because you're like, "Wow, they can paint upside down."

这一刻很酷，因为你会想，“哇，他们可以倒着画。”

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But actually, it's not interesting at all because what they've created is basically a decent photograph-ish image-

但实际上，这根本不有趣，因为他们创造的基本上是一个像样的照片式图像——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

just upside down.

只是颠倒了。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So they might as well hang upside down while they do it.

因此，他们在这样做时不妨倒挂。

It's not interesting.

这并不有趣。

It's not great art.

这不是伟大的艺术。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what I think what we're converging on is that great art takes us through a trajectory that involves the, I believe now after this discussion, that takes us through the arc of excellent storytelling.

因此，我认为我们的共识是，伟大的艺术带领我们走过一条轨迹，我相信在这次讨论之后，这条轨迹将带领我们走过精彩的故事讲述的弧线。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It involves a surprise, recognition of truth, a return to mystery.

它涉及惊喜、对真理的认识、回归神秘。

All these components that you describe for magic are present in art and presumably are present in a great song or play as well.

您描述的所有这些魔法成分都存在于艺术中，并且可能也存在于一首伟大的歌曲或戏剧中。

Yeah.

是的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

I love everything you said, and I often contemplate about why I respond to a certain painting, but the painting outside The Met of the guy, I don't.

我喜欢你所说的一切，我经常思考为什么我会对某幅画做出反应，但大都会艺术博物馆外那个家伙的画，我却不这么认为。

And I was never able to come up with a sufficient answer, but this is as close as I got.

我一直无法给出足够的答案，但这已经是我所能得到的最接近的答案了。

And I often ask, why do I like this but not this?

我经常问，为什么我喜欢这个而不是这个？

Why do I like that and I don't like this?

为什么我喜欢这个而不喜欢这个？

I think that I making a judgment about the motives of the painter.

我想我对画家的动机做出了判断。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

And do I believe him?

我相信他吗？

Is it honest?

诚实吗？

Is it a true, honest expression that extends out of him-

这是从他身上流露出来的真实、诚实的表情吗——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

...

...

on a canvas?

在画布上？

And a lot of times, and that's the closest I got.

很多次，这是我最接近的一次。

I go and I see these patterns and dripping paint and the splatter and this and that, and it's super ...

我走过去，看到这些图案、滴下的油漆、飞溅的东西，还有这个那个，真是太棒了……

Like a lot of people, "Wow, this is cool." And I'm the snob who goes, "Eh, I think it's shit." And the reason is, when I see it, I think I see the motive.

像很多人一样，“哇，这太酷了。”我是个势利小人，他会说：“呃，我认为这很糟糕。”原因是，当我看到它时，我想我看到了动机。

He says, "I'm going to do something cool.

他说：“我要做一些很酷的事情。

I'm going to do something that is eye candy, and I'm going to use every trick in the book to make it happen." As opposed to somebody like Lucian, who paints with his guts.

我要做一些引人注目的事情，我将使用书中的每一个技巧来实现它。”与像卢西恩这样用勇气绘画的人相反。

I believe every brush stroke.

我相信每一个笔触。

I believe it's an honest painting that comes from here, and there's no motive to try to wow you or to tell you, "Look, I'm the best.

我相信这是一幅来自这里的诚实的画，没有动机试图让你惊叹或告诉你，“看，我是最好的。

I'm so great." So that's as close as I got to understanding why I respond to a Lucian Freud, but not to that street artist who does this sparkles with tooth, I don't know, toothpaste.

我真是太棒了。”所以这就是我最接近理解为什么我会对卢西恩·弗洛伊德做出反应，而不是对那个用牙齿（我不知道，牙膏）闪闪发光的街头艺术家做出反应。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I took everything I had, all the top-down inhibition to not go, "Yes, yes." I think that the critical distinction is that the street artist is doing it for the audience, for people, and for the sale.

我用尽了我所拥有的一切，所有自上而下的抑制力，才不去说“是的，是的。”我认为关键的区别在于街头艺术家是为了观众、为了人们、为了销售而做的。

They're doing it to make a living.

他们这样做是为了谋生。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

An audience pleaser.

取悦观众。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Whereas the other artists, the sort of let's call them the greats, are doing it for themselves.

而其他艺术家，我们称他们为伟大的艺术家，则是为自己而做。

It's something in them that needs to get out.

他们身上有一些东西需要出去。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

And it's honest.

而且它是诚实的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And I have so many examples that just leap to mind.

我脑海中浮现出很多例子。

I'll use one from a completely different domain.

我将使用来自完全不同域的一个。

I grew up skateboarding.

我是玩滑板长大的。

I was not good enough to make it a career, but I have great appreciation for it.

我还不够优秀，无法将其作为职业，但我非常欣赏它。

There was a guy in the '90s, he's still around.

有一个90年代的人，他仍然存在。

Sadly, he suffered an injury, had him paralyzed for a while, but now he's walking, cycling, and skateboarding again.

不幸的是，他受了伤，一度瘫痪，但现在他又可以走路、骑自行车和玩滑板了。

His name is John Cardiel.

他的名字叫约翰·卡迪尔。

John Cardiel is just a legend in the landscape of skateboarding.

约翰·卡迪尔 (John Cardiel) 是滑板界的传奇人物。

I knew him back when, still know him a bit, and the way he would do things was just so spectacular.

我那时就认识他，现在仍然了解他一点，他做事的方式真是太壮观了。

Just the energy in it.

只是其中的能量而已。

It wasn't because it was so big and so far and all of that, yes, but there was something in the energy of it.

是的，这并不是因为它太大、那么远等等，而是因为它有某种能量。

And I'll never forget, there's a documentary about him, I'll put a link to it in the show note captions, where someone's describing a conversation they had with him where he does something spectacular, and then he He shows up, he sort of goes up to his friend, and his friend said, "Yeah, at that moment, John turned to him and he goes, 'That one was for me.'" And I think of that now-

我永远不会忘记，有一部关于他的纪录片，我会在节目注释中放一个链接，其中有人描述了他们与他进行的一次对话，他做了一些惊人的事情，然后他出现了，他走向他的朋友，他的朋友说，“是的，在那一刻，约翰转向他，他说，‘那个是给我的。’”我现在想到了——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

That's great

太好了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

like John, like Cards, as they call him, everyone was just thrilled by what he does.

就像约翰一样，就像人们称呼他的卡兹一样，每个人都对他所做的事情感到兴奋。

Right?

正确的？

He's a true virtuoso.

他是一位真正的艺术大师。

But it's the sense that he's not doing it for your entertainment.

但他这样做的感觉并不是为了娱乐你。

He's doing it for him.

他正在为他做这件事。

It's the expression of something inside.

这是内心某些东西的表达。

Rick talks about great art as your own offering to God.

里克谈到伟大的艺术是你自己献给上帝的礼物。

This is not about your audience.

这与你的观众无关。

This is you and your thing, whatever's inside you, and it's your offering to God.

这是你和你的东西，无论你内心有什么，这是你对上帝的奉献。

And I think it's such a key thing.

我认为这是非常关键的事情。

It's the exact opposite of someone doing something to please the audience.

这与某人做一些事情来取悦观众完全相反。

And of course, one delights in audiences being pleased, but that can't be how you approach your magic.

当然，观众高兴是一件令人高兴的事情，但这不能成为你施展魔法的方式。

It must be because it just feels so good.

一定是因为这样的感觉太好了。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

The truth is, the show I create, "Inner Circle," it was created because I wanted to do that show.

事实是，我创作的节目《Inner Circle》是因为我想做那个节目而创作的。

If you tell me somebody's going to come and watch an hour and a half of somebody doing a bunch of card tricks, it sounds boring.

如果你告诉我有人会来观看一个半小时的人表演一堆纸牌戏法，这听起来很无聊。

But I think every art form is an excuse to tell something bigger.

但我认为每一种艺术形式都是讲述更大事物的借口。

Van Gogh recorded his sensations when he looked at the sunflowers, and it recorded his emotions on a canvas.

梵高记录了他看着向日葵时的感受，并将他的情绪记录在画布上。

Every brush stroke, the speed in which he placed every brush stroke, and the colors he chose to put, every decision he made was a recording of his sensations, his state of being at that moment when he painted it.

他的每一个笔触，每一个笔触的速度，他选择的颜色，他所做的每一个决定都是他的感觉的记录，他画画那一刻的状态。

So who cares about sunflowers?

那么谁关心向日葵呢？

We've seen a lot of bouquets of flowers and roses and this, and that.

我们见过很多鲜花和玫瑰花束，还有这个、那个。

Matisse has this famous quote.

马蒂斯有一句名言。

He says that the hardest thing to paint is a rose because one has to first forget about all the roses he painted before, or were painted before.

他说最难画的是玫瑰，因为你必须首先忘记他以前画过的所有玫瑰，或者以前画过的所有玫瑰。

And it's so true because, to me, a still life is something that students do in art schools.

这是如此真实，因为对我来说，静物画是艺术学校学生所做的事情。

Here's a bouquet of flowers, paint it.

这是一束花，画一下它。

So why are we looking at Van Gogh and saying, "Wow, the sunflowers, what a beautiful piece of..." It's because the sunflowers are just an excuse for him to record something of him.

那么，为什么我们看着梵高说，“哇，向日葵，多么美丽的一片……”因为向日葵只是他记录自己的一些东西的借口。

He recorded him, himself, on the canvas, and that's what we're seeing.

他在画布上记录了他自己，这就是我们所看到的。

We're seeing the personality, the excitement, the obsessiveness that he had, and I think that's wonderful.

我们看到了他的个性、兴奋和执着，我认为这很棒。

To me, I always start with, I want to do this show because I think it's beautiful, because I think it has something to say.

对我来说，我总是一开始就说，我想做这个节目，因为我认为它很漂亮，因为我认为它有话要说。

I hope people like it.

我希望人们喜欢它。

I love people, too, and to me, the people are also part of the brush strokes.

我也爱人，对我来说，人也是笔触的一部分。

I make a lot of room in my show for people to flourish, to become a part of the show.

我在我的节目中留出了很大的空间，让人们能够蓬勃发展，成为节目的一部分。

That's part of the expression that I'm trying to create.

这是我试图创造的表达的一部分。

It's not just about me, it's about them, too, but that's an artistic choice in itself.

这不仅与我有关，也与他们有关，但这本身就是一种艺术选择。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Where do you draw, I don't want to say inspiration, but the components for a show?

你在哪里画画，我不想说灵感，而是表演的组成部分？

So I can think of, you can look historically and see what people have done, learn from masters, teachers, from your own experiences.

所以我可以想到，你可以回顾历史，看看人们做了什么，向大师、老师学习，从你自己的经历中学习。

Like let's say you were to travel to, I don't know, Australia or South America, would you bring back components of your travels to the show you create?

假设你要去澳大利亚或南美旅行，我不知道，你会把旅行的一部分带回你创作的节目中吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

Or what's your process for figuring out or sensing into what you want to do?

或者你弄清楚或感知你想做的事情的过程是什么？

And I feel like discussions like this are very important for people to hear because not everyone wants to be a magician or mentalist or scientist or podcaster, but what we're getting down to here are the core components of creative expression.

我觉得这样的讨论对于人们来说非常重要，因为并不是每个人都想成为魔术师、心灵学家、科学家或播客，但我们在这里要讨论的是创意表达的核心组成部分。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So where do you draw on the, what do you bring?

那么你在哪里画画，你带来什么？

Is it your daily experience?

这是你的日常经历吗？

Does it come to you in the form of a bodily sensation?

它是以身体感觉的形式出现的吗？

Is it in your dreams?

是在你的梦里吗？

Is it in your discussions?

你们的讨论中有吗？

Do you try and resurrect cool things from the past?

你会尝试复活过去很酷的事情吗？

Where do you draw from?

你从哪里画画？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's all of it.

这就是全部。

It's really all of it.

这真的是全部。

I'm a sponge of everything around me.

我是周围一切的海绵。

I interact with art, with books, with information, with friends, conversations.

我与艺术、书籍、信息、朋友、对话互动。

Everything is a source of inspiration.

一切都是灵感的源泉。

Everything is.

一切都是。

And it goes through my filter.

它会通过我的过滤器。

I'm always amazed at the fact that 20 students can paint the exact same thing.

我总是惊讶于 20 个学生可以画出完全相同的东西。

You say, "Please, this is a flower, paint it," and you'll have 20 completely different paintings.

你说，“拜托，这是一朵花，把它画下来”，你就会得到 20 幅完全不同的画。

It's because everybody, I think, filters this information through their sensory, whatever it is.

我认为这是因为每个人都会通过他们的感官过滤这些信息，无论它是什么。

And at least that's what I think I'm doing.

至少我认为我正在做的事情。

I'm constantly consuming, not just art, everything.

我不断地消费，不仅仅是艺术，还有一切。

A flower, this, a conversation with a friend, and it-

一朵花，这个，与朋友的对话，还有它——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Social media?

社交媒体？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Maybe.

也许吧。

You know what?

你知道吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

I think everything affects me.

我想一切都影响着我。

Me sitting with you right now will affect me, will change me, will become a part of the mosaic of experiences I have, and it will affect me.

我现在和你坐在一起会影响我，会改变我，会成为我经历的马赛克的一部分，它会影响我。

Like this conversation right now is changing me.

就像现在的这次谈话正在改变我。

Maybe I'm poetic about it, but-

也许我对此很诗意，但是-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

No

否

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

...

...

I really think that way.

我确实是这么想的。

I think that if I had any success, I owe it to all of the people that surround me, all of my friends.

我认为，如果我取得了任何成功，我都要归功于我周围的所有人，我所有的朋友。

Terrific painter, Laura Alexander, who's unbelievable, her contribution to me is immense.

出色的画家劳拉·亚历山大（Laura Alexander）令人难以置信，她对我的贡献是巨大的。

Maybe you can draw direct lines, maybe you can't, but I feel like every person that was part of my life is the reason, the outcome That I produce is because of those people.

也许你可以直接画线，也许你不能，但我觉得我生命中的每个人都是原因，我产生的结果都是因为那些人​​。

So I don't know if I-- I don't search for inspiration.

所以我不知道我是否不寻找灵感。

I think what I do, at least, I really want to let things sink in, and I want to consume.

我觉得我所做的事情，至少，我是真的想让事情深入人心，我想要消费。

I'm curious.

我很好奇。

I always want to know more, to listen to more, to see more.

我总是想了解更多，听更多，看更多。

For example, if I go to a museum and I see a painting, I like to dwell on why do I like it?

例如，如果我去博物馆看到一幅画，我喜欢思考为什么我喜欢它？

Why am I responding to this?

我为什么要回应这个？

Why is this triggering me?

为什么这会触发我？

What is this revealing about me?

这暴露了我什么？

And I don't think there's one way that I say, "Oh, this is the process.

我不认为有一种方式可以说：“哦，这就是这个过程。

This happens, I do this, then a trick is born." Sometimes.

发生这种情况，我这样做，然后一个技巧就诞生了。”有时。

Sometimes it's the Tommy Wonder story, right?

有时这是汤米·旺德的故事，对吧？

I see someone who's doing a trick, and the explanation to the trick is way prettier, and I go, "Wow, it's amazing that the things behind a curtain are more interesting than the things in front of the curtain." That, to me, it planted a seed, and five years later, there was a piece.

我看到有人在表演一个把戏，而且对这个戏法的解释更漂亮，我就说，“哇，幕布后面的东西比幕布前面的东西更有趣，真是太神奇了。”对我来说，它种下了一颗种子，五年后，就有了一块。

So, yeah, I think inspiration is become a sponge.

所以，是的，我认为灵感会变成海绵。

This I learned from my friend Jimmy Tiesto, he says, "To do good art, you have to consume art, create art, get critiqued." Just do those three things.

这是我从我的朋友吉米·蒂斯托那里学到的，他说，“要做好的艺术，你必须消费艺术、创造艺术、接受批评。”只要做好这三件事就可以了。

Consume art, create art, and get critiqued.

消费艺术、创造艺术并接受批评。

Also, when you consume art, it reveals something about you.

此外，当你消费艺术时，它会揭示出一些关于你的东西。

So at first, when I started painting, I loved everything.

所以一开始，当我开始画画时，我喜欢一切。

Surrealism, pointillism, hyperrealism.

超现实主义、点画派、超现实主义。

And slowly, it narrowed down.

慢慢地，范围缩小了。

Because through observing art, I started to learn about what triggers me.

因为通过观察艺术，我开始了解是什么触发了我。

The art taught me what am I responding to, what pushes those buttons, right?

艺术告诉我我在回应什么，是什么按下了这些按钮，对吗？

And I think that's a valuable, important step in becoming an artist.

我认为这是成为一名艺术家的宝贵且重要的一步。

Consume art, and let it teach you something about you.

消费艺术，让它教会你一些关于你的事情。

Then create art.

然后创作艺术。

And then critique it by yourself and maybe people you trust.

然后由你自己或者你信任的人来批评它。

I think, again, you do those three things, you're pretty good.

我想，再一次，你做到了这三件事，就已经很不错了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I was trying to understand that in your magic and mentalist work, you're a storyteller.

我试图理解，在你的魔法和心灵主义作品中，你是一个讲故事的人。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Trying.

尝试。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And to some extent.

并且在某种程度上。

To some extent.

在某种程度上。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the characters can involve cards or numbers or information, and you cast people in the audience often into those stories.

角色可以涉及卡片、数字或信息，并且您经常将观众带入这些故事中。

And depending on what they give you, you might assign them a different role.

根据他们为您提供的内容，您可能会为他们分配不同的角色。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Of course.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you do know what the conclusion of the story could be, and maybe ought to be.

你确实知道故事的结局可能是什么，也许应该是什么。

Sometimes there's some element of surprise even for you.

有时甚至会给您带来一些惊喜。

But that you're working with a certain palette of paints, and they're predictable enough that you can get where you want to go.

但你正在使用特定的颜料调色板，而且它们足够可预测，你可以到达你想去的地方。

But as you said before, that the improvisation of it is part of the delight for you.

但正如你之前所说，即兴创作对你来说是乐趣的一部分。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And because people are resonating with your emotions, there's this empathic attunement that you create, that people also feel like they're part of the experience.

因为人们会与你的情绪产生共鸣，所以你会创造出一种移情协调，人们也会觉得自己是体验的一部分。

It's so very different to watch something that you do on YouTube versus to be in a small setting, versus a larger setting.

在 YouTube 上观看您所做的事情与在小环境中观看和在大环境中观看是非常不同的。

And all of these are spectacular, and we'll provide links to these.

所有这些都非常精彩，我们将提供这些内容的链接。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And if you get the opportunity to see Ozzie live, you absolutely should do it.

如果您有机会现场观看 Ozzie，您绝对应该去看一看。

It will clearly fall into the far extreme of amazing experiences that you'll have.

很明显，你将拥有令人惊叹的体验的极端。

I guarantee it.

我保证。

I think in discussing what art is and people thinking about learning, I think often we wonder, if you're a sponge, you're taking in everything, but do you constrain your days in a way that you're hanging out at The Met, you're not looking at the stuff on the sidewalk outside The Met as much.

我认为在讨论什么是艺术以及人们思考学习时，我想我们常常会想，如果你是一块海绵，你会吸收一切，但你是否会限制你的日子，就像你在大都会博物馆闲逛一样，你不会那么多地看大都会博物馆外人行道上的东西。

So you have a taste, you have a sense of taste, what you like-

所以你有品味，你有味觉，你喜欢什么——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Correct

正确

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and you're drawing from different things.

你从不同的事物中汲取灵感。

I delight in animals of all kinds, and so much of what I do and so much of what I think about in terms of how the human animal works is based on some overlap with the core modules that exist in other animals.

我喜欢各种动物，我所做的很多事情以及我对人类动物如何工作的思考都是基于与其他动物中存在的核心模块的一些重叠。

And I won't take us down that path, but I just delight in animals.

我不会带我们走那条路，但我只是喜欢动物。

That's why I follow so many raccoon accounts on Instagram.

这就是我在 Instagram 上关注这么多浣熊账户的原因。

So I'm trying to figure out, walk us through a day.

所以我想弄清楚，带我们度过一天。

You are a night owl.

你是一个夜猫子。

We talked about this before.

我们之前谈过这个。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Oh, yes.

哦，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what time do you go to sleep at night?

那么你晚上几点睡觉呢？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

You mean morning?

你是说早上吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Typically.

通常。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

4:00 a.m.

凌晨 4:00

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

4:00 a.m.

凌晨 4:00

is when you go to sleep.

就是你睡觉的时候。

And it's not just because you're a performing artist on stage.

这不仅仅是因为你是舞台上的表演艺术家。

You've always been this way.

你一直都是这样。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

And a lot of magicians are.

很多魔术师都是。

And my mom is the same way.

我妈妈也是这样。

My brother, maybe he's a little changed now, but he's also, if he follows his nature, he will fall asleep around 4:00, and I wake up around noon, 2:00 p.m.

我的兄弟，也许他现在有点改变了，但是他也是，如果他顺其自然，他会在4:00左右睡着，而我在中午，下午2:00左右醒来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you wear an eye mask or curtains, right?

你戴眼罩或窗帘吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

A little bit of light and I'm screwed.

一点点光，我就完蛋了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, so then you wake up, what do you do?

好吧，那么你醒了，你会做什么？

I was about to call it your morning routine, but your hour after noon-

我本来想把它称为你早上的例行公事，但你中午过后的时间——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's my morning

这是我的早晨

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

your morning, right.

你的早晨，对吧。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's my morning.

这是我的早晨。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Your morning.

你的早晨。

What is your typical thing?

你的典型事是什么？

Do you pay attention to your dreams?

你关注你的梦想吗？

Do you recall your dreams?

你还记得你的梦想吗？

Is there information there?

那里有信息吗？

Will you walk us through?

你能带我们了解一下吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

I don't know.

我不知道。

I do know that a lot of my resolution, I resolve a lot of tricks, or magic in general is problem-solving.

我确实知道我的很多决心，我解决了很多技巧，或者一般的魔法都是解决问题。

And a lot of times, I have a problem, and I can't solve it.

而且很多时候，我遇到了问题，却无法解决。

And as you said, it happens a lot.

正如你所说，这种情况经常发生。

I sleep, I see everything reversed,

我睡着了，我看到一切都颠倒了，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

And then I come up with a solution.

然后我想出了一个解决方案。

In the morning, it's clear as day to me.

早上，我的心情就像白天一样晴朗。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

That's what needs to be done.

这就是需要做的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you write it down, or you just-

你把它写下来吗，或者你只是——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Immediately, I put to practice.

我立即付诸实践。

If it's a deck of cards, I would say, "Okay, I need to do this," and I will burn it into a muscle memory.

如果是一副纸牌，我会说，“好吧，我需要这样做”，然后我会将其刻录成肌肉记忆。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

But definitely, nighttime is where most of the thinking happens.

但毫无疑问，夜间是大多数思考发生的地方。

I sleep well.

我睡得很好。

I think I sleep pretty well.

我觉得我睡得很好。

I try, I mean- I try to start very relaxed.

我尝试，我的意思是——我尝试以非常放松的方式开始。

I want the first few hours of my day to be pretty relaxed.

我希望一天的最初几个小时能够非常放松。

It's usually a ritual.

这通常是一种仪式。

I have a coffee machine where you need to grind the coffee, you need to do everything, and I love the ritual of making the first cup of coffee.

我有一台咖啡机，你需要在其中研磨咖啡，你需要做所有事情，而且我喜欢制作第一杯咖啡的仪式。

It's the first thing I do.

这是我做的第一件事。

I try to avoid answering emails or things that are urgent or that.

我尽量避免回复电子邮件或紧急的事情。

I don't want to start my day with this energy.

我不想用这种能量开始我的一天。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are you on social media early in the day?

你一大早就在社交媒体上吗？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

No. I consume social media to a degree, and I think it has a place.

不。我在一定程度上消费社交媒体，而且我认为它有一席之地。

There's some beautiful things I found on social media, shows I want to see, friends that do beautiful work and they post it, and it's wonderful, paintings.

我在社交媒体上发现了一些美丽的东西，我想看的表演，朋友们做了漂亮的作品并发布了它，这真是太棒了，绘画。

There's lots of things.

有很多事情。

Social media is not a black and white thing for me that, oh, it's just bad.

社交媒体对我来说并不是非黑即白的东西，哦，这很糟糕。

I think it's a platform, and you can curate it in such a way that is beneficial, interesting, and could give you valuable information.

我认为这是一个平台，你可以用一种有益的、有趣的方式来管理它，并且可以为你提供有价值的信息。

It's the obsessiveness, it's the intensity, and the fact that there are no filters or there's an algorithm deciding for you what you should see.

这是痴迷，是强度，事实上，没有过滤器，也没有算法来决定你应该看到什么。

That's a little scary.

这有点可怕。

But no, I start the day with those things.

但不，我从这些事情开始新的一天。

And slowly, I go for a walk or I love walking.

慢慢地，我去散步或者我喜欢散步。

I think better when I walk.

当我走路时我会思考得更好。

What's the logic behind that?

这背后的逻辑是什么？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, I'm delighting in this.

嗯，我对此很高兴。

First of all, the way you describe your morning routine is very similar to Rick Rubin's morning routine.

首先，你描述的早晨例行公事的方式与里克·鲁宾的早晨例行公事非常相似。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Oh, really?

哦，真的吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He wants to capture some of the elements from sleep, ease into the day gradually, walk, get sunlight, and allow whatever processing occurred in sleep and in the liminal states around the morning and the clarity that comes with the early day to crystallize into ideas, and not deal with email and kind of operational things.

他想要捕捉睡眠中的一些元素，逐渐放松到白天，散步，接受阳光，让睡眠中和早晨的阈值状态中发生的任何处理以及清晨带来的清晰度具体化为想法，而不是处理电子邮件和其他操作性的事情。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's a set of mind.

这是一种心态。

If I start now taking care of emails and this, and I need to send that and the package, then that dictates the day for me.

如果我现在开始处理电子邮件和这个，并且我需要发送那个和包裹，那么这决定了我的日子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, it's tactical.

嗯，这是战术性的。

What's interesting is it's tactical.

有趣的是它是战术性的。

It's not creative.

这没有创意。

In fact, it's-

事实上，它是——

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

No

否

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

by definition, it's not creative because it's being defined by what other people put on there.

从定义上来说，它并不具有创造性，因为它是由其他人在那里放置的内容来定义的。

There's an investor, I forget his name, great investor, hedge fund guy, young kid.

有一个投资者，我忘记了他的名字，伟大的投资者，对冲基金人，年轻人。

Ugh, I can't remember, so forgive me.

呃，我记不清了，请原谅我。

But this quote is not mine.

但这句话不是我的。

He said that email is basically a public post to-do list.

他说，电子邮件基本上是一个公开的待办事项列表。

So people are telling you where to drive your attention and behavior.

所以人们会告诉你在哪里吸引你的注意力和行为。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So your process is very similar to Rick's.

所以你的过程与 Rick 的非常相似。

I like to write, and I have most of my clarity in the morning as well, although sometimes too many tactical things enter my framework.

我喜欢写作，而且早上的时候我的思路也很清晰，尽管有时太多的战术性的东西进入了我的框架。

I'm working on that.

我正在努力。

But I think that what you describe is the life of an artist and a creative, capturing the unique components of what was put together in your brain based on your unique experiences, and it's from you and for you, and ultimately, people benefit because they delight and are astonished by the end result.

但我认为你所描述的是艺术家和创意者的生活，捕捉根据你独特的经历在你的大脑中组合而成的独特成分，它来自你并为你而存在，最终，人们受益，因为他们对最终结果感到高兴和惊讶。

So what you describe, it sounds to me like an amazing and a perfect day for a creative.

所以你所描述的，对我来说，这对于一个创意者来说是令人惊奇和完美的一天。

I think it's so important for people to hear.

我认为人们听到这一点非常重要。

What you describe also runs countercurrent to what most people do during their days, which is to immediately allow the context and the tactics of their actions and thinking to be driven by some external force that is not from them.

你所描述的也与大多数人在日常生活中所做的事情背道而驰，那就是立即让他们的行为和思维的背景和策略受到一些不来自他们的外部力量的驱动。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's from someone else's mind.

这是来自别人的想法。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And there's a strong gravitational pull, like what's in the news?

而且有很强的引力，就像新闻里说的那样？

What are people saying?

人们在说什么？

What's in my text?

我的文字里有什么？

What do people want from me?

人们想从我这里得到什么？

What do people think of me, et cetera?

人们对我有何看法等等？

But that is absolutely poisonous for creative work.

但这对于创造性工作来说绝对是有害的。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

It's pollution.

这是污染。

It puts you in a panic mode.

它会让你陷入恐慌状态。

And by the way, we have so much stuff to do that we'll never catch up with anything.

顺便说一句，我们有太多的事情要做，以至于我们永远都赶不上任何事情。

So let's make peace with that.

所以让我们接受这一点吧。

You'll never catch up with what you need to do because it's exhausting.

你永远不会赶上你需要做的事情，因为它让人筋疲力尽。

So I understand it.

所以我明白了。

The first few hours I can devote to me, to feeling good, relaxed, and slowly I will introduce, okay, what do I want to do right now?

最初的几个小时我可以专注于自我感觉良好、放松，然后慢慢地我会介绍，好吧，我现在想做什么？

What's the first thing I want to tackle, right?

我想要解决的第一件事是什么，对吗？

Sometimes I have an urgency, like I was practicing the Rubik's Cube, so I had a Rubik's Cube right on my side, and the first thing I wanted to do, by choice, is to do and start solving a Rubik's Cube, because I had to get good at it for a routine of mine.

有时我有一种紧迫感，就像我正在练习魔方一样，所以我身边就有一个魔方，而我选择做的第一件事就是开始解决魔方，因为我必须在我的日常工作中擅长它。

So I would like to start the day with, as you said, my own decisions, things that I want to do first.

所以，正如你所说，我想从我自己的决定、我首先想做的事情开始新的一天。

This will make me happy, then I'm going to do it.

这会让我高兴，然后我就去做。

Or I have a deck of cards right next to me, and there's a move I'm trying to get right, and the first thing I want to do is try it in the morning.

或者我旁边有一副牌，我正在努力做正确的一步，而我想做的第一件事就是早上尝试一下。

That's another reason I love cards so much, it's tactile.

这是我如此喜爱卡片的另一个原因，它是有触觉的。

Even though in my new show, which we can talk about, I decided there will be no more cards.

尽管在我们可以讨论的我的新节目中，我决定不再有卡片。

It's a tribute to the human mind.

这是对人类心灵的致敬。

It's called "Incredibly Human." And it's about the things that are possible, and yet they're on the verge of impossible.

它被称为“难以置信的人类”。这是关于可能的事情，但它们却处于不可能的边缘。

So a former rendition of it was when I memorized the entire audience.

所以以前的一次演绎是当我记住了所有观众的时候。

I knew everybody by name.

我知道每个人的名字。

And it's just a skill.

这只是一项技能。

I memorized 120 people every night.

我每晚记住120个人。

So-

所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you use a mnemonic approach where you, like Andrew sounds like or reminds you of some other things, or are you doing a paired association?

你是否使用助记方法，让你像安德鲁一样听起来或让你想起其他一些事情，或者你正在做配对联想？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Sure.

当然。

So I'll tell you a story about it.

所以我会告诉你一个关于它的故事。

He just died at 97, something like that.

他刚刚去世，享年 97 岁。

Old man, but he was sharp to his last day.

老头子，但直到生命的最后一天，他仍然很敏锐。

Harry Lorayne was a memory guy.

哈利·洛雷恩是一个记忆力很强的人。

He performed as a magician, but also taught ...

他以魔术师的身份表演，同时也教授......

people how to remember things.

人们如何记住事物。

Wrote a lot of books.

写了很多书。

And he was known for that.

他因此而闻名。

He was on "The Carson Show," he memorized the entire audience, and it was really cool.

他参加了《卡森秀》，他记住了所有观众，这真的很酷。

It was a signature piece of his, and I wanted to do it in my show.

这是他的标志性作品，我想在我的节目中做到这一点。

So we called him and said, "Can we get permission to use that piece?" And he says, "Sure." "So can we meet with you, and you teach me those little details, the minutia?" And I came with a notebook and a pen.

所以我们打电话给他说：“我们可以获得使用那件作品的许可吗？”他说：“当然。” “那么我们可以和你见面，你教我那些小细节吗？”我带来了一个笔记本和一支笔。

I'm ready to take notes.

我准备好做笔记了。

How do you remember 120 people every night?

你如何每晚记住120个人？

120 people's names.

120个人的名字。

So I'm, "Okay, so what's the work on it?" And he goes, "Oh, you just remember them."

所以我说，“好吧，那么这方面的工作是什么？”他说：“哦，你只记得它们。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're saying first and last names or first names?

你说的是名字和姓氏还是名字？

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

First and last.

第一个也是最后一个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

First and last names.

名字和姓氏。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

Yeah, you can do first.

是的，你可以先做。

He did first and last, yeah.

他首先做到了，也是最后一个，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Goodness gracious.

善良仁慈。

Asi Wind:

阿西风：

So he says, "You just remember them." "Yeah, but tell me the techniques." And I thought it was a joke.

所以他说：“你只要记住它们就可以了。” “是啊，不过请告诉我技巧。”我认为这是一个笑话。

I wrote nothing that day, nothing.

那天我什么也没写，什么也没有。

And I was so scared of it.

我很害怕它。

And I tried to remember people, and I couldn't, and it was so daunting.

我试图记住人们，但我做不到，这太令人畏惧了。

And I realized that in order to remember a lot of people's names, the first thing you need to conquer is fear.

我意识到，为了记住很多人的名字，你首先需要克服的是恐惧。

It's fear.

这是恐惧。

I was afraid that I won't be able to do it.

我担心我做不到。

And one night, I did a small venue with 30 people showed up.

一天晚上，我举办了一个有 30 人参加的小场地。