AMA #5: Intrusive Thoughts, CGMs, Behavioral Change, Naps & NSDR
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today is an ask me anything episode, or AMA.
今天是“问我什么”节目，即 AMA。
This is part of our premium subscriber channel.
这是我们的高级订户频道的一部分。
Our premium subscriber channel was started in order to provide support for the standard Huberman Lab podcast, which comes out every Monday and is available at zero cost to everybody on all standard feeds: YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and elsewhere.
我们的高级订户频道的启动是为了为标准 Huberman Lab 播客提供支持，该播客每周一发布，每个人都可以在所有标准源上以零成本观看：YouTube、Apple、Spotify 和其他地方。
We also started the premium channel as a way to generate support for exciting research being done at Stanford and elsewhere, research on human beings that leads to important discoveries that assist mental health, physical health, and performance.
我们还启动了付费频道，为斯坦福大学和其他地方正在进行的令人兴奋的研究提供支持，这些研究对人类进行了有助于心理健康、身体健康和表现的重要发现。
I'm also pleased to inform you that for every dollar the Huberman Lab premium channel generates for research studies, the Tiny Foundation has agreed to match that amount, so now we are able to double the total amount of funding given to studies of mental health, physical health, and human performance.
我还很高兴地通知您，Huberman Lab 高级频道为研究工作产生的每一美元，Tiny 基金会都同意匹配这一金额，因此现在我们能够将用于心理健康、身体健康和人类表现研究的资金总额增加一倍。
If you'd like to subscribe to the Huberman Lab podcast premium channel, please go to hubermanlab.com/premium.
如果您想订阅 Huberman Lab 播客付费频道，请访问 hubermanlab.com/premium。
It is $10 a month to subscribe, or you can pay $100 all at once to get an entire 12-month subscription for a year.
订阅费用为每月 10 美元，或者您可以一次性支付 100 美元以获得一年的完整 12 个月订阅。
We also have a lifetime subscription model that is a one-time payment, and again, you can find that option at hubermanlab.com/premium.
我们还有一次性付款的终身订阅模式，您也可以在 hubermanlab.com/premium 找到该选项。
For those of you that are already subscribers to the premium channel, please go to hubermanlab.com/premium and download the premium subscription feed.
对于那些已经是高级频道订阅者的人，请访问 hubermanlab.com/premium 并下载高级订阅源。
And for those of you that are not Huberman Lab podcast premium subscribers, you can still hear the first 20 minutes of today's episode and determine whether or not becoming a premium subscriber is for you.
对于那些不是 Huberman Lab 播客高级订阅者的人来说，您仍然可以收听今天节目的前 20 分钟，并确定是否适合成为高级订阅者。
And now, without further ado, I will answer your questions.
现在，话不多说，我将回答您的问题。
And as always, I will strive to be as thorough as possible, as clear as possible, and as concise as possible.
一如既往，我将努力做到尽可能彻底、尽可能清晰、尽可能简洁。
Our first question is about abstaining from thoughts, and in answering this question, we're going to skirt right up against a topic that I've covered before on the podcast, which is obsessive-compulsive disorder, which is a very serious disorder.
我们的第一个问题是关于放弃思想，在回答这个问题时，我们将直接回避我之前在播客中讨论过的一个主题，即强迫症，这是一种非常严重的疾病。
It can have a range of severity, but people with true OCD suffer a lot from obsessions.
它的严重程度可能有一定范围，但真正患有强迫症的人会因强迫症而遭受很大的痛苦。
These are intrusive thoughts and compulsions, which are the behaviors typically associated with those thoughts.
这些是侵入性想法和强迫行为，通常是与这些想法相关的行为。
I think it's really important that we define OCD really clearly so that we can make sure that we're talking about intrusive thoughts and the desire to abstain from thoughts versus OCD and where there might be some overlap there.
我认为我们对强迫症进行明确的定义非常重要，这样我们就可以确保我们谈论的是侵入性想法和放弃想法的愿望与强迫症以及可能存在重叠的地方。
The functional definition of OCD that really pertains to the disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, OCD, as opposed to we call people neurotic, or we say, "You have OCD," or, "I'm so OCD about this," or OCD about that.
强迫症的功能性定义实际上与这种疾病有关，强迫症，强迫症，而不是我们称人们神经质，或者我们说，“你有强迫症”，或者“我对这个很强迫症”，或者对那个强迫症。
That's become kind of common use of the acronym OCD.
这已经成为缩写 OCD 的常见用法。
But true OCD is a situation in which the engaging in a particular compulsive behavior does not serve to reduce the intensity or the frequency of the obsessions.
但真正的强迫症是一种特定的强迫行为并不能降低强迫行为的强度或频率的情况。
In fact, it makes it worse.
事实上，这会让情况变得更糟。
Okay?
好的？
So, the typical thing that we hear these days is, "Oh, you're so OCD," or, "He's so OCD," or, "She's so OCD," or, "I'm so OCD." Now, if someone is OCD in that sense, okay, so not the clinical disorder, but OCD in the sense that they're really clean, they're really fastidious, they need everything perfect.
所以，这些天我们听到的典型的事情是，“哦，你真是强迫症”，或者，“他真是强迫症”，或者，“她真是强迫症”，或者，“我真是强迫症”。现在，如果有人在这个意义上是强迫症，好吧，所以不是临床疾病，而是强迫症，因为他们真的很干净，他们真的很挑剔，他们需要一切完美。
However, that person can achieve some level of calm and comfort that's fairly long-lasting if everything's clean and perfect, well, then that's not obsessive compulsive disorder.
然而，如果一切都干净、完美的话，那个人就能达到一定程度的平静和舒适，而且是相当持久的，那么，那就不是强迫症。
This is really important to understand as we venture into answering the question about intrusive thoughts and the desire to abstain from certain thoughts.
当我们冒险回答有关侵入性想法和放弃某些想法的愿望的问题时，理解这一点非常重要。
A person with true OCD will keep cleaning and cleaning or washing their hands or arranging things at perfect right angles, but the more they do it, the more their anxiety goes up.
患有真正强迫症的人会不断地清洁、清洁或洗手，或将东西摆成完美的直角，但他们做得越多，他们的焦虑就越严重。
A person who has more typical, gosh, we don't really even have a language for this nowadays, unfortunately, but the sort of person that's extremely particular, they need things a certain way, and they're very driven to resolve things and do things to make sure that things are done in a certain way or handled in a certain way.
一个更典型的人，天哪，不幸的是，我们现在甚至没有一种语言来描述这一点，但这种人非常特殊，他们需要以某种方式做事，他们非常有动力解决问题并做事以确保事情以某种方式完成或以某种方式处理。
Well, if that person can experience relief from engaging in, let's say, exercise or from cleaning, right?
好吧，如果那个人可以从运动或清洁中获得缓解，对吗？
You'd say, "You're so OCD about exercise." Well, but if exercising for an hour or even two hours in the morning makes somebody really calm the rest of the day, and they don't need to exercise, well, then they're not necessarily true OCD.
你可能会说，“你对运动太强迫症了。”好吧，但是如果早上锻炼一个小时甚至两个小时能让人在一天剩下的时间里真正平静下来，而且他们不需要锻炼，那么他们不一定是真正的强迫症。
They don't necessarily have a disorder related to exercise.
他们不一定患有与运动有关的疾病。
However, if they're exercising for two hours in the morning, and then they find they can't concentrate on other things, and their desire to exercise just increases and increases and becomes intrusive for them, disrupting their quality of life throughout the day, well, then that's falling under the umbrella of what we would call a true disorder.
然而，如果他们早上锻炼了两个小时，然后他们发现自己无法专注于其他事情，而且他们对锻炼的渴望不断增加，对他们来说变得越来越烦人，扰乱了他们一整天的生活质量，那么这就属于我们所谓的真正的疾病。
Okay?
好的？
So we want to highlight that because the question is about a desire to abstain from thoughts, and the question is, in your discussion with Dr. Anna Lembke, and I should just mention, Dr. Anna Lembke is the director of our dual diagnosis addiction clinic at Stanford University School of Medicine.
所以我们想强调这一点，因为问题是关于戒除思想的愿望，问题是，在你与安娜·莱姆克博士的讨论中，我只想提一下，安娜·莱姆克博士是我们斯坦福大学医学院双重诊断成瘾诊所的主任。
She's the author of this incredible book, "Dopamine Nation", that I think everybody should read.
她是这本令人难以置信的书《多巴胺国家》的作者，我认为每个人都应该阅读这本书。
I do believe everyone should read that book.
我相信每个人都应该读那本书。
So important for the addict and non-addict alike because it deals with basically the state of our life nowadays.
对于成瘾者和非成瘾者来说都很重要，因为它基本上涉及我们当今的生活状态。
We're living in this dopamine-rich world where we can quickly become dopamine depleted, which is terrible, leads to depression, in addition to things like addiction in some folks, et cetera.
我们生活在这个富含多巴胺的世界，我们很快就会耗尽多巴胺，这很糟糕，会导致抑郁症，此外还有一些人会上瘾等。
Anna was a guest on the podcast.
安娜是播客的嘉宾。
You can find her episode at hubermanlab.com.
您可以在 hubermanlab.com 找到她的剧集。
Just put Anna.
Just put Anna.
I think she's the only guest we've had thus far whose name is Anna, so it'll just pop up there.
我想她是我们迄今为止唯一一位名字叫安娜的客人，所以它会突然出现在那里。
The entire website is searchable, but if you want to listen to that episode or watch that episode, you can access it at hubermanlab.com.
整个网站都可以搜索，但如果您想收听该集或观看该集，可以通过 hubermanlab.com 访问。
The question is, in your discussion with Dr. Anna Lembke, you were talking about abstaining from people's drug of choice for 30 days to reset the dopamine reward pathway, and indeed, that is the prescriptive that Dr. Anna Lembke gives for most all addictions and for people that are suffering from mild or even severe depression related to dopamine-seeking behaviors.
问题是，在您与 Anna Lembke 博士的讨论中，您谈到的是在 30 天内戒掉人们选择的药物，以重置多巴胺奖赏途径，事实上，这就是 Anna Lembke 博士为大多数成瘾以及患有与多巴胺寻求行为相关的轻度甚至重度抑郁症的人给出的处方。
Social media, video games, sex, food, et cetera.
社交媒体、视频游戏、性、食物等等。
However, of course, in the instance of food or in some other addictions, you can't abstain for 30 days, right?
不过，当然，对于食物或其他一些成瘾，你不可能30天不戒，对吗？
That would be terrible to abstain from food for 30 days.
如果30天不吃东西，那就太糟糕了。
I'm sure people have done it, but it is not healthy to do.
我确信人们已经这样做了，但这样做并不健康。
Certain things like alcohol and drugs, people can abstain for 30 days in efforts to never go back to them again.
某些东西，例如酒精和毒品，人们可以戒掉 30 天，努力不再吸食这些东西。
There are cases of severe alcohol or opiate dependence where people can't go cold turkey or they risk dying, so there they need to really work with a physician.
在某些严重酒精或阿片类药物依赖的情况下，人们不能戒掉戒烟，否则他们就有死亡的风险，因此他们需要真正与医生合作。
But the 30-day reset of the dopamine system is something that's very real and that pertains to most people.
但多巴胺系统的 30 天重置是非常真实的，并且与大多数人有关。
That is, it's going to be very effective for most people struggling with either behavioral, what are sometimes called process addictions, or other types of addictions, including substance abuse issues.
也就是说，对于大多数患有行为成瘾（有时称为过程成瘾）或其他类型成瘾（包括药物滥用问题）的人来说，这将非常有效。
The question continues, "You said you were going to ask Anna how to abstain if your drug of choice is a thought or narrative as opposed to a substance or a behavior." The question continues, "As far as I can tell, your discussion with Anna moved on before you asked her the question.
问题继续，“你说你要问安娜，如果你选择的药物是一种想法或叙述，而不是一种物质或行为，如何戒毒。”问题继续说道：“据我所知，在你问安娜这个问题之前，你与安娜的讨论已经继续了。
Would you be able to discuss strategies for abstaining from addictive thoughts and narratives?" Okay, so let's talk about intrusive thoughts, and let's start off by asking ourselves, what is a thought?
您能讨论一下戒除令人上瘾的想法和叙述的策略吗？”好吧，让我们来谈谈侵入性想法，让我们首先问自己，什么是想法？
Okay, in the realm of neurobiology, we have sensations, which are the processes by which our neurons, nerve cells, convert light, photons, sound waves, touch, mechanical pressure, et cetera, into electrical signals and chemical signals that head into our nervous system, including our brain, and then our brain, at least we think, makes sense of them and help us navigate the world that we're in.
好吧，在神经生物学领域，我们有感觉，这是我们的神经元、神经细胞将光、光子、声波、触觉、机械压力等转化为电信号和化学信号的过程，这些信号进入我们的神经系统，包括我们的大脑，然后我们的大脑，至少我们认为，理解它们并帮助我们导航我们所处的世界。
Okay, so the sensation part is a pure transformation of mechanical information or, in some cases, chemical information like smell.
好的，感觉部分是机械信息的纯粹转换，或者在某些情况下是化学信息（如气味）的转换。
Chemicals, literally volatile chemicals floating around in the world are brought into your nose and your neurons in your olfactory bulb convert those into electrical and chemical signals that your brain can understand.
化学物质，实际上是漂浮在世界各地的挥发性化学物质，被带入您的鼻子，嗅球中的神经元将它们转化为大脑可以理解的电信号和化学信号。
Perceptions are your idea of what those signals out in the world are, either because you're paying attention to them or for some other reason, you decide that a stop sign in front of you is red and that the sign behind it is white and that the sky is blue or cloudy.
感知是你对世界上这些信号的看法，要么是因为你正在关注它们，要么是出于其他原因，你认为你前面的停车标志是红色的，后面的标志是白色的，天空是蓝色或多云的。
Those are perceptions.
Those are perceptions.
Okay?
好的？
So we have sensations and perceptions.
所以我们有感觉和知觉。
Then we have emotions, which are these things that include the mind and body that are related to neuromodulators like dopamine, serotonin, et cetera, although those chemicals do other things as well.
然后我们有情绪，这些东西包括与多巴胺、血清素等神经调节剂相关的思想和身体，尽管这些化学物质也有其他作用。
And then, of course, we have behaviors, actions, everything from me moving my pen on a piece of paper to walking, running, et cetera.
然后，当然，我们有行为、行动，从我在纸上移动笔到行走、跑步等一切。
Thoughts are a fifth category of neural functioning that we really need to define, but that doesn't have as strict a definition as sensations, perceptions, or feeling, or action.
思想是我们真正需要定义的第五类神经功能，但它没有像感觉、知觉、感觉或行动那样严格的定义。
But thoughts are real, right?
但想法是真实的，对吧？
We all know this.
我们都知道这一点。
Thoughts are real.
Thoughts are real.
And one way that we can define thoughts is that thoughts are perceptions that include data from the past, present, or future.
我们定义思想的一种方式是，思想是包含过去、现在或未来数据的感知。
Okay?
好的？
Or combinations of past and present, or present and future, or future and past.
或者过去和现在的组合，或者现在和未来的组合，或者未来和过去的组合。
Okay?
好的？
I'm not trying to give an overly complicated definition here, but if we are going to answer a question about how to abstain from thoughts in a really direct and actionable way, we really need to address what are thoughts.
我不想在这里给出一个过于复杂的定义，但如果我们要回答一个关于如何以一种真正直接和可操作的方式戒除思想的问题，我们真的需要解决什么是思想。
So thoughts are perceptions that are generated internally, right?
那么思想是内部产生的感知，对吧？
We don't need any external sensation in order to have a thought.
我们不需要任何外部感觉来产生想法。
We can close our eyes, we could be in sensory isolation for that matter, we can even be floating with no gravity, and we can have a thought.
我们可以闭上眼睛，我们可以处于感官隔离状态，我们甚至可以在没有重力的情况下漂浮，我们可以有一个想法。
Thoughts tend to run pretty much automatically in the background all the time, some people refer to this as chatter in the back of our minds, in a very unstructured way.
思想往往几乎总是在后台自动运行，有些人将其称为我们脑海中的喋喋不休，以一种非常无组织的方式。
And then if we force our thoughts to be structured because we decide they need to be, or if something in our environment captures our perception, then our thoughts tend to be structured.
然后，如果我们强迫我们的思想结构化，因为我们认为它们需要结构化，或者如果我们环境中的某些东西捕获了我们的感知，那么我们的思想往往会结构化。
Let me give you an example.
让我举个例子。
If I'm just walking around, if there were a way in which we could broadcast my thoughts onto a screen, I hope we wouldn't do that, but those thoughts would be a mixture of semi-complete sentences and gibberish.
如果我只是四处走动，如果有一种方法可以将我的想法传播到屏幕上，我希望我们不会这样做，但这些想法将是半完整句子和胡言乱语的混合体。
However, if somebody stops me and says, "Hi, good to see you.
然而，如果有人拦住我说：“嗨，很高兴见到你。
What are you doing today?" And I start answering, well, then my thoughts are suddenly being driven by an external stimulus, their question, and some internal ideas, memory of who I am and what I'm doing that day, so past and present, and so on.
你今天做什么？”我开始回答，好吧，然后我的思想突然被外部刺激、他们的问题和一些内部想法、我是谁、我那天在做什么、过去和现在等的记忆所驱动。
And so thoughts become structured.
这样思想就变得结构化了。
So when we have a question about how to abstain from thoughts, we need to be additionally specific and really pinpoint that what we're trying to do is to abstain from thoughts we don't want, presumably, either because they are too repetitive and distracting or because what's contained in those thoughts is disturbing.
因此，当我们对如何戒除想法有疑问时，我们需要更加具体并真正明确我们正在努力做的是戒除我们不想要的想法，大概是因为它们过于重复和分散注意力，或者因为这些想法中包含的内容令人不安。
Okay.
好的。
This is important because it gives us two answers to the questions that are highly divergent.
这很重要，因为它为我们提供了两个截然不同的问题的答案。
One answer to the question of how to abstain from intrusive thoughts, thoughts that we're addicted to, is if those thoughts are merely on loop all the time and we can't stop them, but the thoughts themselves aren't particularly disturbing.
如何戒除侵入性想法（我们沉迷的想法）这个问题的一个答案是，如果这些想法只是一直循环而我们无法阻止它们，但这些想法本身并不特别令人不安。
So think about a song you can't get out of your head, or you keep recounting some event, but the event itself isn't very disturbing, it's just intrusive because it's there.
因此，想想一首你无法从脑海中抹去的歌曲，或者你一直在讲述一些事件，但事件本身并不是很令人不安，它只是侵入性的，因为它就在那里。
Well, in that case, the data really point to trying to anchor your thoughts to some external stimulus.
好吧，在这种情况下，数据确实表明你试图将你的想法锚定在一些外部刺激上。
So getting into action, getting into activities that really draw your attention away from that thought.
因此，采取行动，开展真正能将你的注意力从那个想法上转移开的活动。
Now, you may still hear it scrolling in the background, so you might be sitting in class still hearing that loop of thoughts in the background.
现在，您可能仍然会听到它在背景中滚动，因此您可能坐在课堂上仍然听到背景中的想法循环。
That's something that over time ought to wane, it ought to disappear if we try and bring more and more attention to whatever it is that's in our environment, whatever it is that we happen to be learning or doing physically, et cetera.
随着时间的推移，这种现象应该会减弱，如果我们尝试越来越多地关注我们环境中的一切，无论我们正在学习或在身体上做的是什么，等等，它应该会消失。
Things like mindful meditation, doing a 10 or even just five-minute today practice of sitting with eyes closed or lying down with eyes closed and really focusing on one's breath, focusing one's attention on the, sometimes it's called the third eye center, but in science, we'd say just the region right behind the forehead, you're directing your attention there, has been shown to increase focus for singular topics and can improve memory and do a bunch of other things as well.
比如正念冥想，今天练习 10 甚至仅仅 5 分钟，闭上眼睛坐着或闭着眼睛躺着，真正专注于自己的呼吸，将注意力集中在有时被称为第三只眼中心的地方，但在科学上，我们会说就在前额后面的区域，你将注意力集中在那里，已被证明可以增加对单一主题的注意力，可以提高记忆力，还可以做很多其他事情。
Those are data from Dr. Wendy Suzuki's lab at New York University.
这些数据来自纽约大学温迪铃木博士的实验室。
She was a guest on the podcast as well.
她也是播客的嘉宾。
My laboratory has run studies on mindful meditation as well.
我的实验室也进行了正念冥想的研究。
So what you're really trying to do is learn how to focus better on one thing, and by focusing on that one thing, you focus off these repetitive thoughts.
所以你真正想做的是学习如何更好地专注于一件事，并且通过专注于那件事，你可以集中精力摆脱这些重复的想法。
Now, I have a feeling that this question was asked and that many people up voted this question because the issue isn't just thoughts that are intrusive because they're there and on repeat, but because the thoughts themselves are actually troubling.
现在，我有一种感觉，这个问题被问到了，很多人都投票了这个问题，因为这个问题不仅仅是因为它们存在并重复而具有侵入性的想法，而是因为这些想法本身实际上令人不安。
This could be recounting a trauma, someone harmed you, you observed something that was disturbing, you felt wronged, you felt someone else was wronged, you can't seem to get your mind off of something and your emotions tend to follow, and so it's uncomfortable.
这可能是在讲述一次创伤，有人伤害了你，你观察到了一些令人不安的事情，你感到委屈，你觉得别人受到了委屈，你似乎无法把注意力从某件事上移开，你的情绪往往会随之而来，所以这很不舒服。
I have a feeling this is the root of the question.
我有一种感觉，这就是问题的根源。
In that case, the approach is very different.
在这种情况下，方法就非常不同了。
What we know from essentially all of the quality scientific and clinical studies is that those sorts of intrusive thoughts are very much like a trauma.
我们从基本上所有高质量的科学研究和临床研究中了解到，这些侵入性想法非常像一种创伤。
Now we have to be clear in defining what trauma is.
现在我们必须明确定义什么是创伤。
I'll use the definition that Dr. Paul Conti, another incredible guest that was on our podcast, a psychiatrist, a Stanford, Harvard-trained psychiatrist, I think one of the world's foremost leaders on the issue of trauma and psychiatry and psychology generally.
我将使用保罗·孔蒂博士的定义，他是我们播客上的另一位令人难以置信的嘉宾，一位精神病学家，一位斯坦福大学、哈佛大学训练有素的精神病学家，我认为他是世界上在创伤、精神病学和心理学问题上最重要的领导者之一。
He defines trauma as an event or something that fundamentally changes the way that your nervous system works, such that you function less adaptively going forward from that event.
他将创伤定义为从根本上改变你的神经系统工作方式的事件或事物，使得你在该事件之后的功能适应性降低。
Okay?
好的？
So not every bad occurrence in your life is a trauma.
因此，并非生活中发生的每一次不幸事件都是创伤。
That's good news.
这是个好消息。
The bad news is many people have traumas, and traumas change the way that our nervous system works so that we don't function as well as we could.
坏消息是许多人都遭受过创伤，而创伤改变了我们神经系统的工作方式，使我们无法发挥应有的功能。
So in that sense, intrusive thoughts that are disturbing are in many ways traumas and are reinforcing that trauma.
因此，从这个意义上说，令人不安的侵入性想法在很多方面都是创伤，并且正在强化这种创伤。
Now we know that almost counterintuitively, in order to deal with trauma, you have to get very close to that trauma.
现在我们知道，几乎违反直觉的是，为了应对创伤，你必须非常接近那个创伤。
You don't have to re-expose, and I would hope you would not re-expose yourself to the very same trauma.
你不必再次暴露，我希望你不要再次让自己遭受同样的创伤。
But we know that one of the best ways to deal with traumas is to get very clear about the narrative around those traumas.
但我们知道，处理创伤的最佳方法之一就是非常清楚有关这些创伤的叙述。
Now, this can be done with a therapist, ideally, but not everyone has access to therapy or can afford therapy.
现在，理想情况下，这可以由治疗师来完成，但并不是每个人都能获得治疗或负担得起治疗费用。
There's a range of quality of therapists for that matter.
在这方面，治疗师的素质各不相同。
So we're always referring to the desire for people to do great therapy with really great meaning, excellently trained people.
所以我们总是指的是人们渴望进行具有真正意义的伟大治疗，训练有素的人。
But it turns out that if you want to extinguish an intrusive thought, one of the best ways to do that is to journal about that particular thought extensively.
但事实证明，如果你想消除一种侵入性想法，最好的方法之一就是广泛记录该特定想法。
So rather than the earlier strategy for intrusive thoughts where they're just on loop and intrusive because they're on loop and present, but their content isn't disturbing, when a thought is disturbing and intrusive, we know that it's very useful to script out as much detail about that particular thought and the things around it as possible.
因此，早期针对侵入性想法的策略是，当一个想法令人不安和侵入时，它们只是在循环和侵入，因为它们在循环和呈现，但它们的内容并不令人不安，我们知道，尽可能详细地记录该特定想法及其周围的事物是非常有用的。
Obviously, you want to do this in a way that is fairly structured, so you ideally would use complete sentences.
显然，您希望以相当结构化的方式执行此操作，因此理想情况下您会使用完整的句子。
So the reason for doing that is that thoughts, as I mentioned earlier, can often be fragmentary.
所以这样做的原因是，正如我之前提到的，想法往往是支离破碎的。
So they pop up in our mind almost seemingly spontaneously.
因此，它们几乎是自发地出现在我们的脑海中。
They're inhibiting our ability to focus or be present to work or family or other things, or sleep.
它们会抑制我们集中注意力或参与工作、家庭或其他事情或睡眠的能力。
Writing things down in a lot of detail does seem to have this quality of both reducing the emotional load of whatever it is that that thought is about, as well as diminishing the frequency of those intrusive thoughts over time.
详细地写下事情似乎确实具有这样的品质，既可以减少与该想法相关的情感负担，也可以随着时间的推移减少这些侵入性想法的频率。
So this is far and away different than the strategy I mentioned for the other types of intrusive thoughts, and really, it's far and away different from the 30-day abstinence approach that Dr. Anna Lembke was talking about for substance or behavioral addictions.
因此，这与我提到的针对其他类型的侵入性想法的策略截然不同，而且实际上，它与 Anna Lembke 博士谈论的针对物质或行为成瘾的 30 天禁欲方法也截然不同。
Now, of course, this process of abstaining from thoughts or removing the addictive nature of certain thoughts can definitely take some time.
当然，现在，戒除某些想法或消除某些想法的成瘾性的过程肯定需要一些时间。
So a good example there would be superstitions.
所以一个很好的例子就会有迷信。
I'll come clean here, and I've talked about this before on a few podcasts, that when I was in college, I developed a sort of knock on wood superstition.
我要在这里坦白说，我之前在几个播客上谈到过这一点，当我上大学时，我产生了一种敲木迷信。
Anytime I'd say something that I didn't want to happen or did want to happen, I'd say, "Knock on wood," and I'd knock on wood.
每当我说一些我不想发生或确实想要发生的事情时，我都会说，“敲木头”，然后我就会敲木头。
And then I started suppressing the behavior, mostly because it was a little embarrassing.
然后我开始压抑这种行为，主要是因为这有点尴尬。
And then I started just telling myself in my head, "Knock on wood" And it was clearly a little bit of an OCD type thing.
然后我开始在脑海中告诉自己，“敲木头”，这显然有点强迫症类型的事情。
But again, OCD in air quotes here.
但同样，强迫症在这里引用了空气。
I think it qualified as OCD in the sense that the more I did it, the more I wanted to do it.
我认为它符合强迫症的标准，因为我做得越多，我就越想做。
So I needed to go cold turkey on the thinking, but how can you go cold turkey on a thought?
所以我需要彻底放弃这个想法，但是你怎么能彻底放弃一个想法呢？
You couldn't.
你不能。
What I was told to do and what worked very well for me was to just write down the worst possible outcome that I was concerned about.
我被告知要做的事情以及对我来说非常有效的事情就是写下我所担心的最坏的可能结果。
So to really get close to the nature or the underlying basis of that intrusive thought.
因此，要真正接近这种侵入性思想的本质或根本基础。
And I raise this because a lot of times the intrusive thought is not, okay, I'm thinking about a car accident, or I'm thinking about a breakup, or I'm thinking about an exam that I have.
我提出这个问题是因为很多时候侵入性想法不是，好吧，我在考虑一场车祸，或者我在考虑分手，或者我在考虑我要参加的考试。
That can be intrusive, but a lot of times it's some kind of nebulous, abstract set of words or ideas or images around something that happened that we saw or heard or experienced.
这可能是侵入性的，但很多时候它是围绕我们看到、听到或经历过的事情的某种模糊、抽象的词语、想法或图像。
And by putting a lot of clear structure to what the thought is exactly, and to putting some thought and structure onto paper about what that pattern of not healthy thinking relates to, people often achieve tremendous relief in a fairly short amount of time.
通过为想法的确切含义提供大量清晰的结构，并将一些关于不健康思维模式的相关内容的想法和结构写在纸上，人们通常会在相当短的时间内获得巨大的缓解。
Sometimes just in one session of writing it down.
有时只需一次写下来。
Sometimes they need to write it down multiple times.
有时他们需要多次写下来。
What you're essentially trying to do with an intrusive thought or a trauma of any kind is you're trying to turn a disturbing story, that is a story that evokes a lot of emotion and captures, it kind of hijacks your nervous system, into what is essentially a known but repetitive and kind of old, boring story where the emotional load has been depleted.
对于任何形式的侵入性想法或创伤，你本质上想要做的就是你试图将一个令人不安的故事，一个唤起大量情感并捕获的故事，它劫持了你的神经系统，变成一个本质上已知但重复的、陈旧的、无聊的故事，其中情感负荷已经耗尽。
And there, of course, I have to highlight the fact that getting sufficient rapid eye movement sleep, we also know is very important for removing the emotional load of traumatic experiences and intrusive thoughts.
当然，我必须强调这样一个事实：我们也知道，获得充足的快速眼动睡眠对于消除创伤经历和侵入性想法的情绪负担非常重要。
So you really want to strive to get the best possible sleep you can that includes sufficient rapid eye movement sleep.
因此，您确实想努力获得尽可能好的睡眠，其中包括充足的快速动眼睡眠。
And we have multiple zero-cost resources for that at hubermanlab.com.
我们在 hubermanlab.com 上拥有多个零成本资源。
We have the episode on master your sleep.
我们有一集关于掌控你的睡眠。
We have the episode on perfect your sleep.
我们有关于完善您的睡眠的剧集。
We have the toolkit for sleep, all of which are timestamped and all of which can be accessed completely zero cost to try and get your sleep as good as possible, including lots of rapid eye movement sleep.
我们拥有睡眠工具包，所有这些工具包都带有时间戳，并且可以完全零成本访问，以尝试让您获得尽可能好的睡眠，包括大量的快速眼动睡眠。
So in order to remove intrusive and addictive thoughts, ask yourself, is this OCD of the classic sense?
因此，为了消除侵入性和成瘾性的想法，问问自己，这是经典意义上的强迫症吗？
If it is, you should see a psychiatrist.
如果是的话，你应该去看心理医生。
They won't necessarily prescribe medication, but there are tools for true OCD that are very effective in many cases.
他们不一定会开药，但有一些针对真正的强迫症的工具在许多情况下非常有效。
And we did the episode on OCD, which I invite you to listen to as well.
我们制作了关于强迫症的一集，我也邀请你来听一下。
You want to ask yourself, are the thoughts disturbing or merely intrusive and repetitive?
你想问问自己，这些想法是令人不安的还是仅仅是侵入性和重复性的？
If they're merely intrusive and repetitive, well then learning to focus your attention on other things and getting better at focusing on single things through an exercise like mindfulness meditation can really help.
如果它们只是侵入性和重复性的，那么学习将注意力集中在其他事情上，并通过正念冥想等练习更好地专注于单一事情确实会有帮助。
And indeed, perhaps the best use of mindfulness meditation is to improve your level of focus.
事实上，也许正念冥想的最佳用途是提高你的注意力水平。
It does have other benefits as well, but that's going to be the major one that one will experience even with these very short five or 10-minute-a-day meditations.
它确实还有其他好处，但这将是人们将体验到的主要好处，即使是每天进行 5 或 10 分钟的短暂冥想。
Great data on that from the scientific literature.
来自科学文献的大量数据。
And then if those intrusive thoughts are not only intrusive, but they're also disturbing, in that case, you really want to put as much structure and thought, believe it or not, into what those thoughts are really about.
然后，如果这些侵入性想法不仅是侵入性的，而且还令人不安，那么在这种情况下，无论你相信与否，你真的想要将尽可能多的结构和想法融入到这些想法的真正含义中。
Write them out on paper in complete sentences and maybe do that multiple times until the underlying emotions related to those thoughts really start to diminish.
用完整的句子将它们写在纸上，也许可以多次这样做，直到与这些想法相关的潜在情绪真正开始减弱。
And by doing that, you're essentially doing your own form of trauma therapy, for lack of a better way to put it.
通过这样做，你本质上是在进行你自己的创伤治疗，因为缺乏更好的方式来表达它。
And again, the data really point to the fact that getting close to the specific details around those intrusive thoughts is going to be the best way to extinguish them.
数据再次表明，接近这些侵入性想法的具体细节将是消除它们的最佳方法。
Thank you for joining for the beginning of this Ask Me Anything episode.
感谢您参与本期《有事问我》一集的开始。
To hear the full episode and to hear future episodes of these Ask Me Anything sessions, plus to receive transcripts of them and transcripts of the Huberman Lab podcast standard channel and premium tools not released anywhere else, please go to hubermanlab.com/premium.
要收听完整剧集和收听“Ask Me Anything”会议的未来剧集，以及接收这些会议的文字记录以及 Huberman Lab 播客标准频道和其他地方未发布的高级工具的文字记录，请访问 hubermanlab.com/premium。
Just to remind you why we launched the Huberman Lab podcast premium channel, it's really twofold.
只是提醒您为什么我们推出 Huberman Lab 播客高级频道，它实际上是双重的。
First of all, it's to raise support for the standard Huberman Lab podcast channel, which of course will still be continued to be released every Monday in full length.
首先，是为了提高对标准Huberman Lab播客频道的支持，当然该频道仍然会继续每周一完整发布。
We are not going to change the format or anything about the standard Huberman Lab podcast.
我们不会更改标准 Huberman 实验室播客的格式或任何内容。
And to fund research, in particular research done on human beings, so not animal models, but on human beings, which I think we all agree is a species that we are most interested in.
并资助研究，特别是对人类进行的研究，所以不是动物模型，而是对人类进行的研究，我认为我们都同意这是我们最感兴趣的物种。
And we are going to specifically fund research that is aimed toward developing further protocols for mental health, physical health, and performance.
我们将专门资助旨在开发进一步的心理健康、身体健康和表现协议的研究。
And those protocols will be distributed through all channels, not just the premium channel, but through all channels, Huberman Lab podcast and other media channels.
这些协议将通过所有渠道分发，不仅仅是付费频道，而是通过所有渠道、Huberman Lab 播客和其他媒体渠道。
So the idea here is to give you information to your burning questions in depth and allow you the opportunity to support the kind of research that provides those kinds of answers in the first place.
因此，这里的想法是为您提供深入的紧迫问题的信息，并让您有机会支持首先提供此类答案的研究。
Now, an especially exciting feature of the premium channel is that the Tiny Foundation has generously offered to do a dollar-for-dollar match on all funds raised for research through the premium channel.
现在，高级渠道的一个特别令人兴奋的特点是，Tiny 基金会慷慨地提出对通过高级渠道筹集的所有研究资金进行一美元对一美元的匹配。
So this is a terrific way that they're going to amplify whatever funds come in through the premium channel to further support research for science and science-related tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
因此，这是一种很棒的方式，他们将扩大通过优质渠道获得的资金，以进一步支持心理健康、身体健康和表现方面的科学和科学相关工具的研究。
If you'd like to sign up for the Huberman Lab premium channel, again, there's a cost of $10 per month or you can pay $100 up front for the entire year.
如果您想注册 Huberman Lab 高级频道，每月费用为 10 美元，或者您可以全年预付 100 美元。
That will give you access to all the AMAs.
这将使您能够访问所有 AMA。
You can ask questions and get answers to your questions and you'll of course get answers to all the questions that other people ask as well.
您可以提出问题并获得问题的答案，当然您也会获得其他人提出的所有问题的答案。
There will also be some premium content such as transcripts of the AMAs and various transcripts and protocols of Huberman Lab podcast episodes not found elsewhere.
还将提供一些其他地方找不到的优质内容，例如 AMA 的文字记录以及 Huberman Lab 播客剧集的各种文字记录和协议。
And again, you'll be supporting research for mental health, physical health, and performance.
同样，您将支持心理健康、身体健康和表现方面的研究。
You can sign up for the premium channel by going to hubermanlab.com/premium.
您可以访问 hubermanlab.com/premium 注册高级频道。
Again, that's hubermanlab.com/premium.
再说一次，这是 hubermanlab.com/premium。
And as always, thank you for your interest in science.
一如既往，感谢您对科学的兴趣。