Accelerate Learning & Increase Cognitive Capacity | Dr. Tommy Wood

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

There's a much more recent study that took, again, older adults and randomized them across three different groups.

最近有一项研究再次以老年人为对象，将他们随机分为三个不同的组。

One was like a low intensity group.

一个就像一个低强度组。

Another group basically did kind of zone two type work on a treadmill three times a week.

另一组基本上每周在跑步机上进行三次第二区类型的工作。

And the third group did a high intensity interval training intervention, which was the Norwegian four by four protocol.

第三组进行高强度间歇训练干预，即挪威四乘四方案。

So four minutes, 85% to 95% of maximum heart rate.

所以四分钟，最大心率的 85% 到 95%。

They had a three-minute rest in their protocol.

他们按照协议休息了三分钟。

They did that four times over.

他们这样做了四次。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That was three times a week.

那是每周三次。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Three times a week for six months.

每周三次，持续六个月。

That's pretty intense.

那是相当激烈的。

But what they showed was that that high intensity interval training group, they improved their fitness just as well as the zone two group, interestingly.

但有趣的是，他们所展示的是，在高强度间歇训练组中，他们的健康水平与第二区组一样得到了改善。

But they had much better improvements in hippocampal function and maintenance of hippocampal structure on an MRI scan.

但在 MRI 扫描中，他们的海马功能和海马结构的维护有了更好的改善。

And they maintained that benefit for five years after the six-month intervention.

在六个月的干预后，他们将这种益处维持了五年。

So they worked really hard for six months, but that benefit was maintained for a really long period of time.

所以他们非常努力地工作了六个月，但这种好处却维持了很长一段时间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Tommy Wood.

今天我的客人是汤米·伍德博士。

Dr. Tommy Wood is a medical doctor and neuroscience researcher at the University of Washington in Seattle.

汤米·伍德博士是西雅图华盛顿大学的医生和神经科学研究人员。

He is also the chief science officer of Better Brain, a company that provides free brain health coaching.

他还是 Better Brain 的首席科学官，该公司提供免费的大脑健康辅导。

Tommy is an expert in neuroplasticity and human performance, and how science-based protocols can be used to improve your focus, ability to learn, and skill expression.

汤米是神经可塑性和人类表现以及如何使用基于科学的方案来提高注意力、学习能力和技能表达方面的专家。

His work applies to everyone, from the novice to the elite expert, and for all kinds of skills, cognitive, language skills, athletic, and creative endeavors.

他的工作适用于每个人，从新手到精英专家，以及各种技能、认知、语言技能、运动和创造性的努力。

Today, we discuss the brain states that favor learning, and importantly, how to get yourself into those states.

今天，我们讨论有利于学习的大脑状态，更重要的是，如何让自己进入这些状态。

We also discuss how to get the most from a learning session.

我们还讨论如何从学习课程中获得最大收益。

For instance, how long that session should last, how many sessions to do per day, and perhaps most importantly, how to tune your mind and body to get better at learning.

例如，该课程应该持续多长时间，每天要进行多少次课程，也许最重要的是，如何调整您的身心以更好地学习。

That's something we don't often hear in the context of learning and neuroplasticity, that our brain circuits for focusing and learning are also capable of plasticity, meaning you can literally get better at getting better.

这是我们在学习和神经可塑性方面不常听到的，我们用于聚焦和学习的大脑回路也具有可塑性，这意味着你实际上可以变得更好。

Today, we discuss things like flow states and something called a clutch state, which is a seldom mentioned but critical brain state to accelerate learning and performance.

今天，我们讨论诸如心流状态和所谓的离合器状态之类的东西，这是一种很少被提及但对于加速学习和表现至关重要的大脑状态。

In fact, a clutch state is the state that you want to seek to learn and perform at your best.

事实上，关键状态是您想要寻求学习并发挥最佳状态的状态。

We also discuss how different types of physical exercise, from long slow cardio to brief high intensity cardio, and different forms of resistance training, each open the window for distinct types of neuroplasticity and learning.

我们还讨论了不同类型的体育锻炼（从长时间慢速有氧运动到短暂高强度有氧运动）以及不同形式的阻力训练如何为不同类型的神经可塑性和学习打开窗口。

So this goes way beyond the general discussion about exercise improving your brain.

因此，这远远超出了关于锻炼改善大脑的一般讨论。

We get really granular about exactly what types of things to do to improve your brain in specific ways.

我们非常详细地了解到底应该做什么类型的事情才能以特定方式改善您的大脑。

As a career neuroscientist who has worked on and taught neuroplasticity for decades now, it's rare that I encounter someone with as deep knowledge about the real science and application of learning and plasticity as Tommy has.

作为一名从事和教授神经可塑性数十年的职业神经科学家，我很少遇到像汤米这样对学习和可塑性的真正科学和应用有如此深入了解的人。

He's also extremely unique because he has a ton of knowledge about new science-based protocols for plasticity.

他也非常独特，因为他拥有大量关于新的基于科学的可塑性协议的知识。

And he's also an athlete, and we discuss that a little bit at the end as well.

他也是一名运动员，我们在最后也对此进行了一些讨论。

So today you will hear a lot of information that I am confident you have not heard on this podcast or anywhere else, frankly, about exercise, mental training, nutrition and supplementation, and much more, and how you can leverage each alone and in combination to learn new skills with accelerated speed, precision, and durability over time.

所以今天你会听到很多我相信你在这个播客或其他地方没有听说过的信息，坦率地说，关于锻炼、心理训练、营养和补充等等，以及如何单独和结合地利用每一项信息，随着时间的推移，以更快的速度、精确性和持久性学习新技能。

I should also mention that Tommy recently released a new book that he wrote entitled "The Stimulated Mind: Future-Proof Your Brain from Dementia and Stay Sharp at Any Age." It's an excellent book if you're interested in following up on today's discussion and learning more about how you can make your brain better at any age.

我还应该提到汤米最近出版了一本他写的新书，题为“受刺激的思维：让你的大脑免受痴呆症的影响，在任何年龄都保持敏锐”。如果您有兴趣跟进今天的讨论并了解更多有关如何让您的大脑在任何年龄段都变得更好的信息，那么这是一本很棒的书。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Tommy Wood.

现在我与汤米·伍德博士进行讨论。

Dr. Tommy Wood, welcome.

汤米·伍德博士，欢迎光临。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So amazed to be here.

很惊讶来到这里。

Thanks so much for having me.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Man, this is my favorite topic in the entire world.

伙计，这是我在全世界最喜欢的话题。

What is more interesting than neuroplasticity, right?

还有什么比神经可塑性更有趣，对吧？

The brain is so interesting, but its most interesting feature, in my opinion anyway, is that it can change itself.

大脑是如此有趣，但无论如何，在我看来，它最有趣的特征是它可以改变自己。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Essentially, that's its core most important function.

从本质上讲，这是其最重要的核心功能。

If it can't do that, literally none of the other functions matter, you could argue.

你可能会争辩说，如果它不能做到这一点，那么其他功能实际上都不重要。

And it's something that we have to be able to do right until the end of our lives.

这是我们必须能够正确完成的事情，直到生命的尽头。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You have an eclectic research tapestry.

你有一个不拘一格的研究挂毯。

Right?

正确的？

Today we're going to talk about neuroplasticity, what it is, what it isn't, how to access it for men, for women, different ages.

今天我们将讨论神经可塑性，它是什么，它不是什么，如何为不同年龄的男性、女性获得它。

And you also are a high performance coach.

而且您也是一位高绩效教练。

You're also a competing natural strongman.

你也是一个天生的竞争强者。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Uh.

呃。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah?

是吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So does that mean lifetime no gear?

那么这是否意味着终身没有装备？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Lifetime, well, it's tested.

一生，好吧，它经过了考验。

Yeah, lifetime no gear for me personally, but it's a drug tested version of the strongman sport.

是的，我个人一生都没有装备，但这是经过药物测试的大力士运动版本。

So yeah, if you compete in natural strongman, then you get tested.

所以，是的，如果你参加天生的强人比赛，那么你就会受到考验。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

So we'll talk about that.

所以我们会讨论这个。

I'll resist the temptation to talk about your two boxer pups because I'm a dog lover.

我会抵制住谈论你的两只拳击手小狗的诱惑，因为我是一个爱狗人士。

That's a different episode.

那是一个不同的情节。

Neuroplasticity.

神经可塑性。

I know what it means to me.

我知道这对我意味着什么。

How do you conceptualize it?

你如何理解它？

How do you think people should think about it in terms of wanting to learn things and not forget things?

您认为人们应该如何从想要学习东西而不是忘记东西的角度来思考这个问题？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

I essentially just think of it as the brain responding to inputs in order for us to then be able to better navigate and survive our environment.

我本质上只是将其视为大脑对输入的响应，以便我们能够更好地导航并在我们的环境中生存。

And that's why I think it's such a fundamental part of what the brain does.

这就是为什么我认为它是大脑功能的一个基本部分。

And essentially, every time you learn something, interact with something, remember something, the principles of neuroplasticity are engaged, right?

从本质上讲，每当你学习一些东西、与一些东西互动、记住一些东西时，神经可塑性的原理就会发挥作用，对吗？

You are making new synapses or strengthening synapses, weakening other synapses.

你正在制造新的突触或强化突触，削弱其他突触。

A lot of people don't realize that particularly brain development, but then also the refining of functions in the brain Through neuroplasticity includes the pruning or removal of synapses.

很多人没有意识到，特别是大脑的发育，以及通过神经可塑性对大脑功能的完善，包括修剪或去除突触。

Often we think about it's all about growth and new connections, but actually it also involves the refining or removal of other connections that aren't needed.

通常我们认为这都是关于增长和新的联系，但实际上它还涉及完善或删除其他不需要的联系。

That's a massive part of brain development in the first place.

首先，这是大脑发育的重要组成部分。

And this is a process that's essentially continuously ongoing, and you can think of it its primary role is so that you can navigate, survive the world around you.

这是一个本质上持续进行的过程，你可以认为它的主要作用是让你能够在周围的世界中航行、生存。

And that's through learning skills, through remembering people and things and facts.

这是通过学习技能，通过记住人、事和事实。

One of the things that's most interesting to me about neuroplasticity and the way we think about our brains over time is that I think people have conflated neurogenesis and neuroplasticity.

关于神经可塑性以及我们随着时间的推移思考大脑的方式，我最感兴趣的事情之一是我认为人们已经将神经发生和神经可塑性混为一谈。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So when we're thinking about brain development, we're thinking about then also brain function with age and either cognitive decline or maintaining cognitive function.

因此，当我们考虑大脑发育时，我们也会考虑随年龄增长的大脑功能，以及认知能力下降或维持认知功能。

We thought that the adult brain was fixed, right?

我们认为成年人的大脑是固定的，对吗？

Or then it was fixed and then it lost function.

或者后来它被修复了，然后它就失去了功能。

And this goes all the way back to Cajal who said the adult brain is immutable, right?

这可以追溯到卡哈尔，他说成人的大脑是一成不变的，对吧？

He told us that you got into adulthood, it finished developing, and then it was kind of done.

他告诉我们，你进入了成年期，它就完成了发育，然后就差不多完成了。

He then at other times also said that changes in the connections between neurons could explain learning, and so there he's talking about neuroplasticity, but we kind of got this idea that the brain was essentially fixed as an adult and then couldn't change anymore.

然后他在其他时候也说过，神经元之间连接的变化可以解释学习，所以他在谈论神经可塑性，但我们有点认为大脑在成年后基本上是固定的，然后就不能再改变了。

But that can't be true because you still learn and remember things on a daily basis as an adult.

但这不可能是真的，因为作为一个成年人，你每天仍然在学习和记住事情。

One of the things that I think we've gotten confused about is the fact that the adult brain does not make new neurons in many places, right?

我认为我们感到困惑的一件事是，成人大脑在许多地方不会产生新的神经元，对吗？

Maybe in the olfactory bulbs, in the dentate gyrus, the hippocampus, but-

也许在嗅球、齿状回、海马体中，但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Tiny, tiny number

很小很小的数字

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

...

...

yeah, but compared to the rest of the brain, you're not really making new cells.

是的，但与大脑的其他部分相比，你并没有真正制造新细胞。

And so because of that, we thought, well, we can't then grow and adapt or change our brains as adults.

因此，我们认为，作为成年人，我们无法成长、适应或改变我们的大脑。

But just because we have a relatively fixed number of cells doesn't mean that we can't change the connections between those cells, and that's happening all the time.

但仅仅因为我们的细胞数量相对固定，并不意味着我们不能改变这些细胞之间的连接，而且这种情况一直在发生。

And that is the main principle of neuroplasticity.

这就是神经可塑性的主要原理。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I like your definition, in part because I agree with it In part because it encapsulates a lot of things, including helping to clear up this misconception that we generate new neurons.

我喜欢你的定义，部分是因为我同意它，部分是因为它概括了很多东西，包括帮助消除我们生成新神经元的误解。

I think the attractiveness of the new neuron idea is just it's so sticky.

我认为新的神经元想法的吸引力在于它非常具有粘性。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so we would all love to believe that.

所以我们都愿意相信这一点。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But maybe there's good reason why we don't add new neurons.

但也许我们有充分的理由不添加新的神经元。

Maybe it's not adaptive, right?

也许它不具有适应性，对吧？

Adding new elements to a circuit is maybe not the best way to change a brain circuit.

向电路中添加新元素可能不是改变大脑电路的最佳方法。

I think people also like the idea that every organ in our body turns over its cells.

我认为人们也喜欢我们身体的每个器官轮流其细胞的想法。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That we're not the same person literally that we were.

从字面上看，我们已经不是同一个人了。

The brain is the same cells you were born with, minus a bunch of them that die off, as you pointed out.

正如您所指出的，大脑与您出生时的细胞相同，只是减去了一些会死亡的细胞。

And thank you for mentioning pruning and the removal of connections as a fundamental aspect of plasticity.

感谢您提到修剪和消除连接是可塑性的一个基本方面。

In terms of motor skill learning, let's say I decide I'm going to practice billiards.

在运动技能学习方面，假设我决定要练习台球。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I'm okay now, hanging in there, but let's say I want to get really good.

我现在很好，坚持下去，但可以说我想变得非常好。

As I learn and get better and better, can we reliably say that most of my improvement is the removal of inappropriate action and therefore synaptic connections?

当我学习并变得越来越好时，我们可以可靠地说我的大部分改进是消除不适当的动作，从而消除突触连接吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

I don't know whether it's the majority.

不知道是不是大多数。

You might know whether it's the majority, but I think that there's certainly it requires both, right?

你可能知道这是否是大多数，但我认为肯定是两者都需要，对吗？

The either development or strengthening of new connections, and then the removal of other connections that decrease accuracy, say, or that don't allow you to do the exact motion that you were intending to do.

发展或加强新的连接，然后删除其他会降低准确性的连接，例如，或者不允许您执行您想要做的精确动作的连接。

This, like I said, kind of goes all the way back to the development of motor skills, say, in childhood, right?

就像我说的，这可以追溯到运动技能的发展，比如说，在童年，对吧？

The brain has kind of finished developing new neurons sometime around two or three years old, right?

大脑在两三岁时就已经完成了新神经元的发育，对吧？

Beyond that point, you're actually primarily removing connections in order to refine functions based on the exposures that you have, be they language, motor, social skills, which is what the brain is essentially developing during that time period.

除此之外，你实际上主要是消除连接，以便根据你所接触的情况来完善功能，无论是语言、运动、社交技能，这是大脑在那段时间本质上发展的技能。

So then that continues throughout our entire lives, and I think that something that happens later in life, one of the reasons why we may lose function is because we stop giving the brain inputs to maintain a given function, therefore that pruning continues, right?

那么这种情况会持续我们的一生，我认为在以后的生活中发生的事情，我们可能失去功能的原因之一是因为我们停止向大脑提供输入以维持特定的功能，因此修剪仍在继续，对吧？

I don't need to know how to do this, so I'm going to refine that away.

我不需要知道如何做到这一点，所以我将对其进行改进。

That's kind of the developmental theory of aging or part of the developmental theory of aging.

这是衰老发展理论的一种，或者是衰老发展理论的一部分。

So in that, when you're learning a skill as an adult or any time, a big part of refining that motor patterns that you're developing has to be the removal of connections or the downregulation of connections that aren't allowing you to do the skill that you want to do.

因此，当你作为成年人或任何时候学习一项技能时，完善你正在开发的运动模式的一个重要部分必须是消除或下调那些不允许你完成你想做的技能的连接。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you were to tell people, "Look, you want to keep your brain as young as it can possibly be relative to your chronological age," you should what?

如果你告诉人们，“看，你想让你的大脑尽可能保持与你的实际年龄相关的年轻”，你应该怎么做？

So this is a general brain health question, but really I'm specifically asking about plasticity.

所以这是一个一般性的大脑健康问题，但实际上我是在特别询问可塑性。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And let's make it multiple choice, and then you can add things to it.

让我们将其设置为多项选择，然后您可以向其中添加内容。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You should exercise, so it can be multiple things, and then we'll talk about which types of exercise.

你应该锻炼，所以它可以是多种，然后我们将讨论哪些类型的锻炼。

You should continue to do the things that you already know how to do.

你应该继续做你已经知道该怎么做的事情。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then third option, not mutually exclusive with the others, of course, is you should try to do new things that you can't already do.

第三种选择当然与其他选择并不相互排斥，那就是你应该尝试做你还不能做的新事情。

Now, I still toil with this when I look at the literature on neuroplasticity and aging.

现在，当我查看有关神经可塑性和衰老的文献时，我仍然为此而苦苦挣扎。

Yes, use it or lose it is true.

是的，用它或失去它是真的。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But we're also told that novelty and trying things that we're not good at is an essential component of Building out brain circuits, continuing to make them function better as we get older.

但我们也被告知，新鲜事物和尝试我们不擅长的事情是构建大脑回路的重要组成部分，随着年龄的增长，它们会继续发挥更好的功能。

So how do you think about all of that?

那么您如何看待这一切？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

I'll partly answer your last question and then maybe give a framework for how I think about it.

我将部分回答你的最后一个问题，然后也许会给出一个框架来说明我的想法。

So when you look at a combination of epidemiological studies and intervention studies in older adults, so everything about maintaining cognitive function later in life, you definitely see that those who continue to engage in hobbies and activities that are cognitively engaging or cognitively demanding, and that can be lectures, that can be volunteering, that can be reading crosswords, that kind of stuff.

因此，当你综合考虑老年人的流行病学研究和干预研究，以及有关在晚年维持认知功能的所有内容时，你肯定会看到那些继续从事认知参与或认知要求较高的爱好和活动的人，这些爱好和活动可以是讲座，可以是志愿服务，可以是阅读填字游戏之类的东西。

Those individuals tend to either have slowed rates of decline or better maintenance of function over time and/or lower rates of dementia.

这些人往往要么减缓了衰退速度，要么随着时间的推移更好地维持了功能和/或降低了痴呆率。

That's, of course, observational, right?

当然，这是观察性的，对吧？

But that's usually people continuing to engage in the things that they've already been doing, right?

但这通常是人们继续从事他们已经在做的事情，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So they're holding onto what they've got.

所以他们会紧紧抓住他们所拥有的东西。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Holding onto what they've got by continuing to do that.

通过继续这样做来保持他们所拥有的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Now, of course, it could partly be reverse causation, because if you're maintaining function, then you're more likely to continue to do the things that you enjoy doing, right?

当然，这在一定程度上可能是反向因果关系，因为如果你保持功能，那么你就更有可能继续做你喜欢做的事情，对吗？

So this probably goes in both directions.

所以这可能是双向的。

However, there's an increasing body of literature that shows that by engaging older adults in novel cognitive activities, you see improvements in function.

然而，越来越多的文献表明，通过让老年人参与新颖的认知活动，您会看到功能的改善。

So that can be language learning, that can be complex coordinative movement or exercise.

这可以是语言学习，可以是复杂的协调运动或练习。

You see the same things with musical training, people learning a new musical instrument or learning musical theory, trying to identify different patterns in music.

在音乐训练中你会看到同样的事情，人们学习新乐器或学习音乐理论，试图识别音乐中的不同模式。

And you see in randomized control trials improvements, particularly in executive function, that seems to be most common across those different interventions.

你会在随机对照试验中看到改善，特别是在执行功能方面，这似乎是这些不同干预措施中最常见的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

But you're seeing improvements in cognitive function with novel cognitive stimuli.

但你会看到新颖的认知刺激使认知功能得到改善。

There's a lot of recent trials that have also used types of brain training, things like the POINTER trial that was here in the US, Maintain Your Brain, which was a massive online study done in Australia recently.

最近有很多试验也使用了大脑训练的类型，比如在美国进行的 POINTER 试验，“维护你的大脑”，这是最近在澳大利亚进行的一项大规模在线研究。

And that's sort of broad cognitive training with an online cognitive training platform.

这是一种通过在线认知培训平台进行的广泛认知培训。

So again, it's a new or novel intervention or exposure that seems to provide a stimulus that improves function.

再说一次，这是一种新的或新颖的干预或暴露，似乎提供了改善功能的刺激。

So I think both can be or do seem to be important.

所以我认为两者都可能或者看起来确实很重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm excited to share with you that my book, "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body," is now available for preorder and will be coming out in less than two months.

我很高兴与您分享我的书《协议：人体操作手册》现已开放预订，并将在不到两个月的时间内出版。

It's my first book, and it's a reflection of decades of research, hundreds of conversations with leading scientists and medical doctors, and my own exploration of health, fitness, and performance.

这是我的第一本书，它反映了数十年的研究、与顶尖科学家和医生的数百次对话，以及我自己对健康、健身和表现的探索。

"Protocols" is a straightforward-to-use manual for overcoming any number of different pain points you might have in terms of mental health, physical health, and performance.

“协议”是一本简单易用的手册，可帮助您克服在心理健康、身体健康和表现方面可能遇到的各种不同痛点。

And if you're already doing well with mental health, physical health, and performance, it can make you that much better at any and all of those things.

如果你在心理健康、身体健康和表现方面已经做得很好，它可以让你在所有这些事情上都做得更好。

It's meant for anyone interested in achieving better health and vitality.

它适用于任何有兴趣获得更好的健康和活力的人。

It provides a deep dive into and clear explanation of tools to improve your sleep, nutrition, exercise, focus, stress management, neuroplasticity and motivation, and much more.

它深入探讨并清晰解释了改善睡眠、营养、锻炼、注意力、压力管理、神经可塑性和动机等的工具。

I'm truly thrilled to share "Protocols" with all of you.

我真的很高兴与大家分享“协议”。

The launch date is September 15th.

发布日期为 9 月 15 日。

You can learn more about it by going to protocolsbook.com.

您可以访问protocolbook.com 了解更多信息。

That's protocolsbook.com.

那是protocolbook.com。

I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.

我想稍微休息一下，向我们的赞助商之一大卫表示感谢。

David makes protein bars unlike any other.

大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。

Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.

他们最新的 Bronze Bar 含有 20 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。

I have to say, these are the best-tasting protein bars I've ever had, and I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years.

我不得不说，这些是我吃过的味道最好的蛋白质棒，这些年来我尝试过很多蛋白质棒。

These new David bars have a marshmallow base, and they're covered in chocolate coating, and they're absolutely incredible.

这些新的大卫巧克力棒有一个棉花糖底座，上面覆盖着巧克力涂层，它们绝对令人难以置信。

I, of course, eat regular whole foods.

当然，我经常吃天然食品。

I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, et cetera.

我吃肉、鸡肉、鱼、鸡蛋、水果、蔬菜等等。

But I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of one gram of protein per pound of body weight.

但我也强调每天吃一两块大卫棒作为零食，这样很容易达到我每磅体重一克蛋白质的蛋白质目标。

And that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories.

这使我能够摄入所需的蛋白质，而不会消耗过多的热量。

I love all the David Bronze Bar flavors, including Cookie Dough, Caramel Chocolate, Double Chocolate, Peanut Butter Chocolate.

我喜欢大卫青铜棒的所有口味，包括饼干面团、焦糖巧克力、双重巧克力、花生酱巧克力。

They all actually taste like candy bars.

它们实际上尝起来都像棒棒糖。

Again, they're amazing.

再说一次，他们太棒了。

But again, they have no sugar, and they have 20 grams of protein with just 150 calories.

但同样，它们不含糖，并且含有 20 克蛋白质，只有 150 卡路里热量。

If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。

Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free.

现在，大卫正在提供一项优惠，如果您购买四箱，您可以免费获得第五箱。

You can also find David on Amazon or in stores such as Target, Walmart, and Kroger.

您还可以在亚马逊或 Target、沃尔玛和克罗格等商店找到 David。

Again, to get the fifth carton for free, go to davidprotein.com/huberman.

同样，要免费获得第五箱，请访问 david Protein.com/huberman。

Can I ask for an example of-

我可以要求一个例子吗-

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Hmm

嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

maybe one or two of the things that were in that large-scale trial from Australia?

也许是澳大利亚大规模试验中的一两个东西？

Just at a very top contour level, older adults, meaning 65 and older, are doing what?

就在最顶层，老年人（即 65 岁及以上）正在做什么？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

The Maintain Your Brain study was sort of midlife, kind of 50s and 60s mainly.

“维护你的大脑”研究是针对中年人，主要是 50 岁和 60 岁的人。

And they actually had interventions across four different domains based on risk factors within that given individual.

他们实际上根据特定个体的风险因素在四个不同领域进行了干预。

So they had-

所以他们有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

...

...

a dietary intervention.

饮食干预。

They had physical activity.

他们进行了体力活动。

They had cognitive behavioral therapy for those who had potentially some mental health concerns.

他们对那些可能有一些心理健康问题的人进行认知行为治疗。

And then they had online brain training.

然后他们进行了在线大脑训练。

There was something similar done in the POINTER trial, which was in older adults, now 60s and 70s, that was done here in the US.

POINTER 试验也做了类似的事情，该试验的对象是 60 多岁和 70 多岁的老年人，这是在美国进行的。

That was a replication of an older trial called the FINGER trial that was done in Finland.

这是芬兰进行的一项名为 FINGER 试验的较旧试验的复制。

But what those guys did was something very similar.

但那些人所做的事情非常相似。

So it's diet, exercise, monitoring, and treating cardiovascular risk factors, and then brain training.

所以这是饮食、锻炼、监测和治疗心血管危险因素，然后是大脑训练。

So what the brain training looks like, so the POINTER trial is a good example.

那么大脑训练是什么样子的，POINTER 试验就是一个很好的例子。

They used a platform called BrainHQ, which is-

他们使用了一个名为 BrainHQ 的平台，该平台是-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

BrainHQ?

大脑总部？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

BrainHQ.

大脑总部。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Which was developed based on the work of Mike Merzenich-

它是根据 Mike Merzenich 的工作开发的 -

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Like one of the godfathers of learning and neuroplasticity, right?

就像学习和神经可塑性的教父之一一样，对吧？

And they do various tasks primarily focused on developing and maintaining processing speed.

他们执行的各种任务主要集中于开发和维持处理速度。

Some of that evidence goes all the way back to an older trial called ACTIVE that was done in the US in the '90s.

其中一些证据可以追溯到 90 年代在美国进行的一项名为 ACTIVE 的较旧试验。

It's still the biggest ever trial of pure cognitive brain training, again, in older adults, so 60s and 70s.

这仍然是有史以来最大规模的纯认知大脑训练试验，对象是老年人，即 60 岁和 70 岁的老年人。

They had three different training groups and then a control group.

他们分为三个不同的训练组和一个对照组。

The training groups did memory training and kind of like mnemonics, memory palaces, that kind of stuff to help them remember.

训练小组进行记忆训练，比如助记符、记忆宫殿之类的东西来帮助他们记忆。

There was reasoning training, which is kind of like looking for patterns in numbers and letters.

有推理训练，有点像寻找数字和字母的模式。

And then there was processing speed training, where in this example, it's visual processing speed.

然后是处理速度训练，在本例中是视觉处理速度。

So things flash up on a screen in increasingly small increments, so could be hundreds of milliseconds.

因此，屏幕上的内容会以越来越小的增量闪烁，因此可能需要数百毫秒。

And as you get better at doing it, that time gets shorter, and you have to remember what you saw and where you saw it on a screen.

随着你做得越来越好，时间会变得越来越短，你必须记住你看到了什么以及你在屏幕上看到的位置。

They just published a secondary analysis of the ACTIVE trial that showed that those who did processing speed training with booster sessions at one in three years had a significantly decreased risk of dementia 20 years later.

他们刚刚发布了 ACTIVE 试验的二次分析，结果显示，那些每三年进行一次处理速度训练并进行强化训练的人 20 年后患痴呆症的风险显着降低。

And they've done some other studies showing that that kind of training improves cholinergic signaling in the forebrain, which we know is susceptible to the processes of dementia.

他们还进行了一些其他研究，表明这种训练可以改善前脑中的胆碱能信号，我们知道前脑很容易受到痴呆症的影响。

So in particular, it's this training to be able to improve either visual or auditory processing speed, which is not something that...

所以特别是，这种训练能够提高视觉或听觉处理速度，这并不是......

As you get older, you tend to not do activities that require you to process information quickly.

随着年龄的增长，您往往不会做需要快速处理信息的活动。

Like driving is probably the main one, but you can do it in sports and music and other scenarios.

像驾驶可能是主要的，但是你可以在运动和音乐等场景中进行。

But if you're not doing those things, processing speed tends to drop off sometime around 60 years old.

但如果你不做这些事情，处理速度往往会在 60 岁左右下降。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When you say, well, I say processing, you say processing speed, are you talking about reaction time, improving reaction time, or pushing people to stay at the edge of reaction time?

当你说，好吧，我说处理，你说处理速度，你是在谈论反应时间，提高反应时间，还是迫使人们停留在反应时间的边缘？

And when I say stay at the edge, I should clarify for people, some task where if you go too fast, you make errors.

当我说留在边缘时，我应该向人们澄清，在某些任务中，如果你走得太快，就会犯错误。

If you go too slow, there's also a penalty.

如果你走得太慢，也会受到处罚。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

In this scenario, and there are studies that look at these different functions over time.

在这种情况下，有研究随着时间的推移观察这些不同的功能。

Probably the biggest one looked at data that came from the implicit association test people might have heard of, where you get shown these pictures of different things, and depending on how quickly you respond, it tells you something about your implicit thought processes.

最大的可能是查看来自人们可能听说过的内隐关联测试的数据，在该测试中，您会看到不同事物的这些图片，并且根据您的反应速度，它会告诉您有关您的内隐思维过程的一些信息。

But they took some of the data from that.

但他们从中获取了一些数据。

This was published in one of the Nature journals a few years ago.

几年前，这篇文章发表在一本《自然》杂志上。

And what they showed was that you can separate out reaction time versus processing speed because reaction time is just the basic of response to a visual stimulus, whereas processing is based on how quickly you can process and remember the information that you're seeing.

他们表明，您可以将反应时间与处理速度分开，因为反应时间只是对视觉刺激做出反应的基础，而处理则取决于您处理和记住所看到的信息的速度。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Actually think.

其实想想。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

You actually think, yeah.

你实际上认为，是的。

So what they showed in this study was that reaction time kind of slowly decreases on average in a population of, it was about 1.2 million people, slowly decreases in sort of like from about our 30s and then maybe decreases even more once we get past about 60.

他们在这项研究中表明，在大约 120 万人中，平均反应时间会慢慢减少，从 30 多岁开始慢慢减少，一旦超过 60 岁，反应时间可能会减少得更多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Processing speed on average tended to be more stable until about 60 years old and then tends to drop off.

平均处理速度在 60 岁左右之前趋于稳定，然后趋于下降。

So what you're doing in these training modalities is you're being shown information for a very short period of time and then having to remember what it was you saw and where you saw it.

因此，您在这些培训方式中所做的就是在很短的时间内向您展示信息，然后必须记住您看到的是什么以及在哪里看到的。

So it requires you to actually think and remember, process the information rather than just responding to a stimulus.

因此，它要求你真正思考、记住、处理信息，而不仅仅是对刺激做出反应。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So for people that want to jump to the, okay, what do I do?

那么对于那些想跳到的人，好吧，我该怎么办？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can we conclude, okay, if you like crossword puzzles, keep doing them, but do really hard ones for you.

我们可以得出结论吗，好吧，如果你喜欢填字游戏，就继续做吧，但做对你来说非常难的游戏。

If you like lifting weights, continue to challenge yourself with those.

如果您喜欢举重，请继续挑战自己。

If you like to run, push harder.

如果你喜欢跑步，就加倍努力。

Or should it be we shift domains?

或者我们应该转移域？

You like to lift and run, great.

你喜欢举重和跑步，太棒了。

Start swimming again, Andrew, I'm telling myself.

重新开始游泳吧，安德鲁，我告诉自己。

I just notice over time, it's such a cliché of aging, right?

我只是随着时间的推移才注意到，这是衰老的陈词滥调，对吧？

That one does tend to become more narrow, quote-unquote, "set in their ways." You like what you like.

人们确实倾向于变得更加狭隘，引用不引用，“以他们的方式行事”。你喜欢你喜欢的。

You don't like what you don't like.

你不喜欢你不喜欢的东西。

You get busier.

你会变得更忙。

You probably don't actually get busier, but you convince yourself, well, I'm doing these things, and I do plenty of them, but I'm not doing these other things.

你可能实际上并没有变得更忙，但你说服自己，好吧，我正在做这些事情，而且我做了很多事情，但我没有做其他这些事情。

Or for those of us, and I think this is everybody if they really ask themselves and answer honestly, you'd love to hold onto your motor function and cognitive function as long as you can, maybe even improve it.

或者对于我们这些人来说，我想这就是每个人，如果他们真正问自己并诚实地回答，你会愿意尽可能长时间地保持你的运动功能和认知功能，甚至可能改善它。

Should we push ourselves to do something that's really far outside the box or maybe sort of current skill adjacent?

我们是否应该强迫自己去做一些真正超出常规的事情，或者可能是与现有技能相邻的事情？

So I think of those three categories.

所以我想到了这三个类别。

What do the data say?

数据说明了什么？

If you want the greatest effect for the minimum amount of time, assuming you're still going to do all the stuff you normally do.

如果您想在最短的时间内获得最大的效果，假设您仍然要做所有平常做的事情。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're going to add something else.

你要添加其他东西。

Should it be something really different, slightly different, or just push harder in the thing you do?

它应该是真正不同的、稍微不同的、还是只是在你所做的事情上更加努力？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

I think it's going to depend a little bit on what it is, the things that you currently do, right?

我认为这在一定程度上取决于它是什么，你目前正在做的事情，对吧？

So like crosswords are a good example.

填字游戏就是一个很好的例子。

Even if you're doing hard ones, if you look at the work of people like Gloria Mark, the things like crossword and Sudoku, they're less of like a true cognitive challenge, right?

即使你正在做困难的事情，如果你看看像格洛丽亚·马克这样的人的工作，比如填字游戏和数独，它们不太像是真正的认知挑战，对吧？

It almost has more of like a meditative effect, right?

它几乎更像是一种冥想效果，对吧？

Which can be a good thing, right?

这可能是一件好事，对吗？

So you're focused but not challenged, really.

所以你真的很专注，但没有受到挑战。

Whereas if we're trying to build capacity, you need to spend some time doing something where you are both focused and challenged cognitively.

然而，如果我们试图培养能力，你需要花一些时间做一些既能集中注意力又能在认知上受到挑战的事情。

So that can come from learning new skills, be they motor, language, social, and ideally as broad as possible because you're going to get Better overall stimulus as well as broader potential for transfer into other areas of daily life.

因此，这可以来自学习新技能，无论是运动技能、语言技能、社交技能，最好是尽可能广泛的技能，因为你将获得更好的整体刺激以及转移到日常生活其他领域的更广泛的潜力。

In reality, the narrowness of the response or the breadth of the response is proportional to the narrowness or the breadth of the stimulus.

实际上，响应的窄度或响应的广度与刺激的窄度或广度成正比。

So you could get really good at one very specific thing, or you could try and learn a new skill that involves a wide variety of tasks.

因此，你可以真正擅长一件非常具体的事情，或者你可以尝试学习一项涉及多种任务的新技能。

So I'll give an example is learning a new ball sport.

所以我举一个例子，就是学习一项新的球类运动。

That is going to require multiple assets of motor skills, social skills.

这将需要多种运动技能、社交技能。

It's going to include both visual and auditory processing that's going to get faster and faster and harder and harder the better you get.

它将包括视觉和听觉处理，你做得越好，这些处理就会变得越来越快、越来越难。

So something like that creates a much broader stimulus than if you get very good at one very specific brain training task on one computer program.

因此，与你在一个计算机程序上非常擅长一项非常具体的大脑训练任务相比，类似的事情会产生更广泛的刺激。

This is one of the main arguments against online or digital brain training, is that you get very good at doing that one specific thing, but it doesn't transfer over to other areas of your life.

这是反对在线或数字大脑训练的主要论点之一，即你非常擅长做某件特定的事情，但它不会转移到你生活的其他领域。

Whereas some of these broader, more complex, ultimately more human skills probably give us much broader transfer as well because of the multiple pathways or networks that are being activated.

然而，由于多种途径或网络被激活，其中一些更广泛、更复杂、最终更多的人类技能可能也会给我们带来更广泛的转移。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If my interpretation of what you said is correct, pick something hard.

如果我对你所说的解释是正确的，请选择一些困难的东西。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ideally, pick something that's a bit outside or really outside your current skill set, that involves motor and cognitive aspects.

理想情况下，选择一些有点超出或确实超出您当前技能范围的东西，涉及运动和认知方面。

And that's kind of tricky to find, right?

这有点难找到，对吧？

With sports stuff, it feels motor and cognitive because you have to learn the rules of the game.

对于体育运动来说，它给人一种运动感和认知感，因为你必须学习游戏规则。

You have to, in some cases, interact with others.

在某些情况下，您必须与他人互动。

With cognitive stuff, the motor skills involved in writing or turning a page, they're not that significant.

对于认知方面的东西，比如写作或翻页所涉及的运动技能，它们并不那么重要。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Even with a video game, I know video games can improve reaction time and visual search and things like that, but basically your thumbs get real good.

即使使用视频游戏，我知道视频游戏可以提高反应时间和视觉搜索等类似功能，但基本上你的拇指会变得非常好。

I actually went to a video game competition.

我实际上参加了电子游戏比赛。

They have teams.

他们有团队。

A kid that used to work for me, I was like, "What do you want for kind of end of year gift?" And he was like, "I really want to go to this video game championship." And the kids actually who compete warm up their hands.

一个曾经为我工作的孩子，我当时想，“你想要什么年终礼物？”他说，“我真的很想去参加这个电子游戏锦标赛。”真正参加比赛的孩子们也在热身。

The kids in the audience have these styrofoam things that they clap so they don't make noise.

观众席上的孩子们拿着这些泡沫塑料的东西，他们会拍手，这样就不会发出声音。

And it was a whole thing.

这是一整件事。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I don't want to take anything away from the real sport I discovered that is playing video games, but mostly what was moving was thumbs and fingers.

所以我不想从我发现的真正的运动中拿走任何东西，那就是玩电子游戏，但主要是移动的是拇指和手指。

Not a lot of large scale motor activity.

没有很多大规模的运动活动。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if you had to maybe throw out three or four things that are particularly potent plasticity inducers, what would those be?

因此，如果你必须扔掉三到四种特别有效的可塑性诱导剂，那会是什么？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

This definitely doesn't have to be super complicated.

这绝对不必非常复杂。

So like the things that you mentioned earlier, because you mentioned exercise and then skills, right?

就像您之前提到的那样，因为您提到了锻炼，然后又提到了技能，对吧？

And so you could do those things separately.

所以你可以单独做这些事情。

Maybe we'll get into why aerobic and strength training do different things to different parts of the brain.

也许我们会了解为什么有氧运动和力量训练对大脑的不同部分产生不同的作用。

So ideally you do a little bit of both.

所以理想情况下，你两者都做一点。

If you don't feel super compelled to go and start a new sport, but you're getting these inputs from elsewhere, and so you would rather, say, learn a new language which we have some good evidence for, then that combination is great.

如果你不觉得有必要去开始一项新运动，但你从其他地方获得了这些输入，所以你宁愿学习一门新语言，我们有一些很好的证据，那么这种组合就很棒。

But if you're thinking about some of the things that we have very good evidence for that kind of hit multiple networks at the same time, dancing is probably number one.

但如果你考虑一些我们有很好的证据证明这种同时影响多个网络的事情，那么跳舞可能是第一位的。

Lots of-

很多-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Learning a new dance?

学习新舞蹈？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Learning a new dance.

学习新舞蹈。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Solo or with someone else?

单独还是和其他人一起？

I'm sort of half joking, but some people dance on their own, some people dance with someone else.

我是半开玩笑的，但有些人自己跳舞，有些人和别人一起跳舞。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So dancing on your own in your living room, highly encouraged.

因此，我非常鼓励你在客厅里独自跳舞。

It's a great form of physical activity.

这是一种很好的身体活动形式。

It's fun.

很有趣。

Of course, the best evidence is for ballroom and line dancing, which generally requires...

当然，最好的证据是交际舞和排舞，这通常需要......

And so there are meta-analyses of these interventions in older adults showing that ballroom and line dancing have the greatest effect on cognitive function.

因此，对老年人的这些干预措施进行的荟萃分析表明，国标舞和排舞对认知功能的影响最大。

And so both of those require other people as well as learning various sets of movements.

因此，这两者都需要其他人以及学习各种动作。

So you have skill learning, you have social interaction, and you have the physical activity component.

所以你有技能学习，你有社交互动，你有身体活动部分。

There's probably also the musical component, where you have to listen for the timing of the music and those kinds of things that is its own skill set.

可能还有音乐成分，你必须听音乐的节奏以及诸如此类的事情，这是它自己的技能。

So dancing has a large body of evidence behind it.

所以舞蹈背后有大量的证据。

But then I think in the exercise realm, you've got all the sort of ball sports, board sports, team sports.

但我认为在运动领域，有各种球类运动、棋盘运动、团队运动。

I think skateboarding would be a great example, as long as you wear a helmet and don't hit your head too often.

我认为滑板就是一个很好的例子，只要你戴上头盔并且不要经常撞到你的头。

Most martial arts, again, as long as somebody's not punching you in the face too much.

再说一次，大多数武术，只要有人没有过多地打你的脸。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Something like Brazilian jujitsu.

有点像巴西柔术。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

So there's a physical component, there's a complex motor skill component.

所以有一个身体成分，有一个复杂的运动技能成分。

Usually there's a social component.

通常有社交成分。

There's a lot of responding, reacting to the environment or your opponent.

有很多反应，对环境或对手的反应。

So then talking about processing speed again.

那么接下来再谈谈处理速度。

But then beyond that, there's some really interesting data on some other creative arts that do seem to have some effect on network stability and function in the brain, particularly the networks like the frontoparietal network that we know is really important for focus and attention, and its function does tend to decrease with age.

但除此之外，还有一些关于其他一些创意艺术的非常有趣的数据，这些艺术似乎确实对大脑中的网络稳定性和功能产生了一些影响，特别是像额顶叶网络这样的网络，我们知道它对于注意力和注意力非常重要，而且它的功能确实会随着年龄的增长而减弱。

So things like creative or visual arts, maybe some similar effects of learning a language.

像创意或视觉艺术之类的东西，也许与学习语言有一些类似的效果。

Again, similar effects from learning to play video games.

学习玩电子游戏也会产生类似的效果。

Yeah, so of course there's no big motor patterns involved, but you're having to solve complex problems, react quickly to a changing environment, that kind of stuff.

是的，所以当然不涉及大的运动模式，但你必须解决复杂的问题，对不断变化的环境做出快速反应，诸如此类。

So that's eight or nine different things that somebody could try.

所以有人可以尝试八九种不同的事情。

And just one of those, I think, is going to be a new skill, a new stimulus, often happens in a social environment, a number of different things happening at the same time.

我认为其中之一将是一项新技能，一种新刺激，经常发生在社会环境中，许多不同的事情同时发生。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Any particular instruments?

有什么特别的乐器吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

I don't think anybody's looked at instruments, like the difference in different instruments.

我认为没有人关注乐器，喜欢不同乐器之间的差异。

So I would say no. Pick one that you feel motivated and interested to learn.

所以我会说不。选择一个你感到有动力并且有兴趣学习的课程。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Yeah, dancing by oneself has a lower shame quotient.

是的，一个人跳舞的羞耻度较低。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Well, the shame quotient, I think, might be important, right?

嗯，我认为羞商可能很重要，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

There's the discomfort of making mistakes, and we know how critical that is for learning.

犯错误会让人不舒服，但我们知道这对学习有多重要。

And so I think some of that can be important, too.

所以我认为其中一些也很重要。

But if you do it in a class, everybody else is a beginner, you're all doing it together, maybe that adds a fun component because you can laugh at each other when you don't get it right.

但如果你在课堂上做这件事，其他人都是初学者，你们都一起做，也许这会增加一个有趣的组成部分，因为当你做错的时候，你可以互相嘲笑。

So a few years ago, I wrote a paper with my colleague, Josh Turknett, about this idea that potentially one of the reasons why we lose cognitive function as we get older is because we stop giving our brain novel inputs or complex inputs that help maintain function, drive neuroplasticity.

几年前，我和我的同事乔什·特克内特（Josh Turknett）写了一篇论文，讨论了这样一个观点：随着年龄的增长，我们失去认知功能的潜在原因之一是因为我们停止向大脑提供有助于维持功能、驱动神经可塑性的新颖输入或复杂输入。

And I think one of the reasons that that happens is because adults hate being bad at things, right?

我认为发生这种情况的原因之一是因为成年人讨厌做坏事，对吗？

You just, like, this thought, you just imagined it, right?

你只是，就像，这个想法，你只是想象出来的，对吧？

I'm in a dance class and I'm going to suck at dancing, right?

我在上舞蹈课，但我的舞蹈水平会很差，对吧？

I imagine that I'm going to take my wife to a tango class.

我想我要带我妻子去参加探戈课。

It's something I've always wanted to do.

这是我一直想做的事情。

But when I go in the first time, I imagine I'm going to be like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jamie Lee Curtis in "True Lies." Do you ever see that movie?

但当我第一次进去时，我想我会像《真实的谎言》中的阿诺·施瓦辛格和杰米·李·柯蒂斯一样。你看过那部电影吗？

But anyway, so right at the beginning, they're spies and they're doing the tango at this gangster's mansion or something.

但无论如何，一开始他们是间谍，他们在这个黑帮的豪宅里跳探戈什么的。

And it's like, he leans her over, she grabs the rose from the table in her mouth.

就像，他把她靠过来，她从桌子上抓起玫瑰放在嘴里。

Like, I'm going to try that, and I'm going to drop my wife, and she's going to hit her head, she's going to be mad at me, and lots of people are going to see, and I'm going to feel stupid, right?

就像，我要尝试一下，我要抛弃我的妻子，她会撞到她的头，她会生我的气，很多人都会看到，我会觉得自己很愚蠢，对吧？

And so that's why we don't do those things.

这就是我们不做这些事情的原因。

But it's so critical to driving those processes of neuroplasticity that we make those mistakes, that we have to kind of let go of some of that, that we feel as adults, like we think that everybody expects us to be good at everything and the best at everything, and we shouldn't fail, we shouldn't make mistakes.

但这对于推动神经可塑性过程至关重要，以至于我们会犯这些错误，我们必须放弃其中的一些错误，我们作为成年人感觉，我们认为每个人都希望我们在所有事情上都擅长，并且在所有事情上都做到最好，我们不应该失败，我们不应该犯错误。

But as you have covered many times, it's so critical to do that.

但正如您多次提到的，这样做非常重要。

And so I think acknowledging that shame component exists and leaning into it is going to be a really important part of trying to maintain this function over time.

因此，我认为承认羞耻成分的存在并倾向于它将是随着时间的推移试图维持这种功能的一个非常重要的部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Couple of quick anecdotes, and then some encouragement to do the tango class.

一些简短的轶事，然后是一些参加探戈课的鼓励。

I'll start with tango.

我将从探戈开始。

My grandparents on my Argentine side did tango into their 80s.

我在阿根廷的祖父母一直到 80 多岁才开始探戈。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it can be done, but they learned it rather young.

所以这是可以做到的，但他们很年轻就学会了。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And Tim Ferriss, as I recall-

还有蒂姆·费里斯，我记得——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

talked about this in one of his books.

在他的一本书中谈到了这一点。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

He's a competitive tango dancer.

他是一位很有竞争力的探戈舞者。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

He learned tango, and that gets to the other point, which is I want to talk about sex differences in results of experiments in plasticity.

他学了探戈，这就说到了另一点，那就是我想谈谈可塑性实验结果中的性别差异。

But when you dance the sorts of dances that we're talking about, so salsa, tango, typically this is traditionally the male leads.

但当你跳我们谈论的那种舞蹈时，比如萨尔萨舞、探戈舞，通常传统上都是男主角。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Years ago, I had a girlfriend who was really into salsa, so I went salsa dancing with her in the Bay Area one night.

几年前，我有一个非常喜欢萨尔萨舞的女朋友，所以有一天晚上我和她一起去湾区跳萨尔萨舞。

And it's a tricky thing if you're not skilled salsa dancer-

如果你不是熟练的萨尔萨舞者，这是一件棘手的事情 -

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Uh-huh

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

because basically you're taking your girlfriend to go dance with a bunch of other men until you learn.

因为基本上你是带着你的女朋友去和一群其他男人跳舞，直到你学会为止。

So there are social conditions that make it harder for men to learn than women to learn-

所以有些社会条件使得男性学习比女性更难——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

particular types of dance.

特定类型的舞蹈。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Unless, as Tim did, he got a dance coach, a female dance coach, to teach him how to lead, and then he learned how to lead, and then he was able to dance tango competitively.

除非像蒂姆那样，他找了一位舞蹈教练，一位女舞蹈教练，教他如何带球，然后他学会了如何带球，然后他就能有竞争力地跳探戈了。

I think I have that right, Tim.

我想我有这个权利，蒂姆。

They'll correct me in the comments, but as I recall, that's the story.

他们会在评论中纠正我，但我记得，这就是故事。

So there's that.

所以就是这样。

Not that following is trivial.

并不是说以下是微不足道的。

It requires some skill.

这需要一些技巧。

But if the person, again, traditionally the male, can't lead, the whole thing, it doesn't work.

但如果这个人（传统上是男性）无法领导，那么整个事情就不起作用。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

So, I just made you more nervous about going to this class but you should do it because I had a roommate when I was a postdoc who was a neurology resident at UCSF, and she would go do tango late at night, and she would come back a different person.

所以，我只是让你对上这门课更加紧张，但你应该这样做，因为当我还是一名博士后时，我有一个室友，她是加州大学旧金山分校的神经内科住院医师，她会在深夜去跳探戈，回来时她会变成另一个人。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so this is the other piece here is it seems that when we are trying something truly new that involves interactions with other people, and we go into that willingness to enter beginner's mind or whatever it is, embrace the shame, and as we start to get even just a little bit better at something, it almost seems like there's this kind of halo around the rest of our life.

所以这就是这里的另一件事，似乎当我们尝试一些涉及与他人互动的真正新事物时，我们愿意进入初学者的思维或其他什么，拥抱羞耻，当我们开始在某件事上做得更好一点时，似乎我们的余生都笼罩着这种光环。

We go to work the next day differently.

第二天我们以不同的方式去上班。

We interact with people differently, like our nervous system is changed.

我们与人的互动方式不同，就像我们的神经系统发生了变化。

What do you think that is?

你认为那是什么？

We can make up stories about chemicals, and maybe we should, because they're likely to be true, but what do you think that is?

我们可以编造有关化学品的故事，也许我们应该这样做，因为它们很可能是真的，但你认为那是什么？

That general change in arousal, like you're sleeping better, you're more excited for the other things in life when you're trying to learn tango, and you get just a little bit better.

觉醒方面的普遍变化，就像你睡得更好了，当你尝试学习探戈时，你对生活中的其他事情更加兴奋，而且你会变得更好一些。

What is that?

那是什么？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

I don't think I would make up anything about chemicals.

我不认为我会编造任何有关化学品的事情。

I think you could boil a lot of it down to we like to be good at stuff, and we like to overcome things, right?

我想你可以把很多事情归结为我们喜欢擅长做事，我们喜欢克服困难，对吧？

There's this core need to be challenged and then to overcome those challenges.

这个核心需要受到挑战，然后克服这些挑战。

And I think there's a lot of downstream effects of not doing that, and they could be related to mental health.

我认为不这样做会产生很多下游影响，它们可能与心理健康有关。

They could also be related to physical health, right?

它们也可能与身体健康有关，对吗？

Because if we think about physical and cognitive or stressor, psychological-related challenges, and the process of overcoming them, because that's what really drives a lot of physical or mental psychological growth.

因为如果我们考虑身体和认知或压力源、心理相关的挑战，以及克服它们的过程，因为这才是真正推动身体或心理成长的因素。

And I think that's something that fundamentally is part of what we need on a daily basis.

我认为这从根本上来说是我们日常所需的一部分。

And so you did this thing that you were bad at, and you got better at it, and you proved to yourself, hey, I'm capable.

所以你做了你不擅长的事情，然后你变得更好了，你向自己证明了，嘿，我有能力。

I'm able to overcome challenges.

我能够克服挑战。

I'm able to engage and do difficult things.

我能够参与并完成困难的事情。

And I think the psychological benefits of that, just that process of engaging with a challenge, overcoming it, working hard to do that, I think that's just almost like a core psychological need that we have.

我认为这样做的心理好处，就是迎接挑战、克服挑战、努力做到这一点的过程，我认为这几乎就像我们所拥有的核心心理需求。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

And then that transfers to all these other things.

然后这会转移到所有其他事情上。

Oh yeah, I can do these hard things, so I'm going to do that other thing.

哦，是的，我可以做这些困难的事情，所以我要做另一件事。

I'm excited to try something else that's difficult.

我很高兴尝试其他困难的事情。

I'm excited to challenge myself again.

我很高兴能再次挑战自己。

And it needs to be something that Feels meaningful, feels difficult enough that you have the ability to overcome with some dedicated practice or focused time working on it.

它必须是一些让你感觉有意义、足够困难的事情，让你有能力通过一些专门的练习或集中时间来克服它。

If it's too hard, you can have the opposite effect, right?

如果太难的话，可能会产生相反的效果，对吗？

By making something so difficult, somebody can't do it, and they just fail again and again and again and again.

把事情搞得如此困难，有人就做不到，他们只会一次又一次失败。

That can obviously have the opposite effect.

这显然会产生相反的效果。

But something that you know you can get better at, you know you can work on, you can see progress.

但你知道你可以做得更好，你知道你可以努力，你可以看到进步。

I think all of that then has all these knock-on effects.

我认为所有这些都会产生连锁反应。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe we could talk about flow for a second.

也许我们可以谈谈心流。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One of the most bastardized- ...

最混蛋之一——...

terms in neuroscience, performance psychology, and the rest.

神经科学、表现心理学等领域的术语。

When Csikszentmihalyi talked about it initially, when he really defined the term, it was about being engaged in a process where you have a certain level of skill-

当 Csikszentmihalyi 最初谈论它时，当他真正定义这个术语时，它是关于参与一个你拥有一定技能水平的过程 -

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but the thing you're trying to do is just beyond your skill level.

但你想做的事情超出了你的技能水平。

So really striving a bit and that kind of general sense of wellbeing that can come from that.

所以，真正努力一点，就能从中获得那种普遍的幸福感。

Nowadays, I think people assume flow is when you are able to do something in the absence of kind of feeling of effort.

如今，我认为人们认为心流是指你能够在没有某种努力感觉的情况下做某事。

It's like you-

就像你一样——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

just, you get the magic power kind of thing, which is not what flow was originally intended to mean.

只是，你得到了魔力之类的东西，这并不是流最初的意思。

I'd like to know how you think of this concept of flow and whether or not it's even a meaningful term.

我想知道您如何看待“心流”这个概念，以及它是否是一个有意义的术语。

And I tip my hat to Steven Kotler and others-

我向史蒂文·科特勒和其他人致敬——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

who have written about it and studied it, and great respect for Steven and what he's done with the concept.

他们写过并研究过它，并且非常尊重史蒂文和他对这个概念所做的事情。

And I think it's a meaningful concept, but I don't think we really know how to define it.

我认为这是一个有意义的概念，但我认为我们并不真正知道如何定义它。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I think this is important in the context of plasticity because I think what we see in Harry Potter movies and sci-fi and Fight Club and everything else is that suddenly we're just going to be endowed with these powers just because we want them and need them.

我认为这在可塑性的背景下很重要，因为我认为我们在哈利波特电影、科幻小说、搏击俱乐部以及其他一切中看到的是，我们突然被赋予这些力量，只是因为我们想要它们并且需要它们。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that is not how it works.

但事实并非如此。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So is flow an expression of skill or is it the striving to attain a skill?

那么心流到底是技能的表现，还是为获得技能而付出的努力？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

I think of flow as the maximal expression of a complex learned skill.

我认为心流是复杂学习技能的最大表达。

Like you said, you're right at the edge of your capabilities, but you're still managing to maintain function, whatever skill it is that you're performing at.

就像你说的，你正处于自己能力的边缘，但无论你擅长什么技能，你仍然能够维持功能。

The thing that really frustrates me is that because of that or some version of their definition of flow people are like, "Well, I've always got to search for flow.

真正让我沮丧的是，由于这个或某些版本的心流定义，人们会说，“嗯，我总是要寻找心流。

Everything happens in flow, and we need to be in flow all the time," which doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

一切都在心流中发生，我们需要一直处于心流中，”这对我来说毫无意义。

There's two different parts to this.

这有两个不同的部分。

So one is that people assume that for optimal performance you need to be in flow.

因此，人们认为，为了获得最佳表现，你需要保持心流状态。

That is not true.

那不是真的。

Flow is one version of being able to perform at the best of your abilities.

心流是能够发挥出最佳能力的一种形式。

If we think about this in terms of sports performance, there might be broadly two states associated with top level performance.

如果我们从运动表现的角度来考虑这一点，那么与顶级表现相关的大致有两种状态。

One is flow states, the other is clutch states.

一种是流动状态，另一种是离合器状态。

And so a clutch state, you are still at the optimal level of arousal, right?

所以在紧要关头的状态下，你仍然处于最佳的唤醒水平，对吗？

If we think about the arousal curve and performance, which we can come back to.

如果我们考虑一下唤醒曲线和表现，我们可以回到这一点。

But so at the optimal level of arousal, which is required for you to perform the skill that you're trying to perform, but when you're in a clutch state, it still feels like hard work, right?

但是，在最佳的唤醒水平下，这是你执行你想要执行的技能所必需的，但当你处于紧要关头的状态时，它仍然感觉像是艰苦的工作，对吧？

So you could talk to any athlete about a time that they performed well, they won, they did the best of their abilities, but it was hard cognitive work, it was hard physical work, it was a slog, but they still managed to perform well.

所以你可以和任何运动员谈论他们表现出色、他们获胜、他们尽力而为的那段时光，但这是艰苦的认知工作，这是艰苦的体力工作，这是一项艰苦的工作，但他们仍然表现出色。

That's a clutch state.

那是离合状态。

And people can perform at the best of their abilities in clutch states.

人们可以在关键状态下发挥出最佳能力。

And even though they're not in flow, it's not all coming to them easily, right?

即使他们不处于心流状态，但这一切也不会轻易发生，对吧？

It requires them to really focus and work hard to get the job done.

这需要他们真正集中精力并努力工作来完成工作。

And both of those are perfectly reasonable states in which to perform.

这两种状态都是完全合理的执行状态。

And assuming that you have to be in flow to perform just isn't true if you look at how athletes perform in the moment.

如果你看看运动员此刻的表现，假设你必须处于心流状态才能表现，那就是不正确的。

The other side of it is that some people have intimated that flow is required for learning or optimal learning happens in flow, which doesn't make any sense, right?

另一方面，有些人暗示学习需要心流，或者最佳学习发生在心流中，这没有任何意义，对吗？

If we talked about making mistakes and errors and friction required for learning, that is not conducive to flow because it can be stressful, it can be frustrating.

如果我们谈论学习所需的犯错、错误和摩擦，那不利于心流，因为它可能会带来压力，可能会令人沮丧。

And sort of the other side of that is if flow is expressing your skill, if you want to get better at that skill, you have to work even further beyond your current capacities which will move you out of flow, right?

另一方面，如果心流表达了你的技能，如果你想在这项技能上做得更好，你必须进一步超越你目前的能力，这会让你脱离心流，对吗？

Because of the friction and the mistakes and the errors that come from that.

因为摩擦、错误以及由此产生的错误。

So I think flow is super interesting and I wouldn't pretend to be an expert in flow, but there are all these other states where learning happens, where performance happens, that aren't flow.

所以我认为心流非常有趣，我不会假装自己是心流专家，但是所有其他发生学习、表现的状态都不是心流。

And that's fine, too, right?

这也很好，对吧？

But sometimes it's hard and that's okay.

但有时这很难，但没关系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm so glad you're here.

我很高兴你在这里。

I've been looking for this conversation for, well, since I started the podcast because I completely agree about flow and the misunderstanding of the concept-

自从我开始播客以来，我一直在寻找这场对话，因为我完全同意心流以及对这个概念的误解——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of flow.

的流量。

I'd never heard of a clutch state.

我从来没有听说过离合器状态。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that a term that you coined or someone else coined?

这是你创造的术语还是其他人创造的？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

No, no. It's in the sports psychology literature.

不，不。这是运动心理学文献中的内容。

They'll talk about clutch states.

他们会谈论离合器状态。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that's why I haven't seen it.

所以这就是为什么我没有看到它。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Because I'm very familiar with the neuroplasticity literature-

因为我非常熟悉神经可塑性文献——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but I've never heard of it.

但我从来没有听说过。

Maybe I'm just not up to date on my reading.

也许我只是没有跟上我的阅读水平。

But thank you for introducing clutch state, which is when one is performing well, but it's involving, and this is a term I did make up, but sort of some limbic friction.

但谢谢你介绍了离合器状态，这是一个人表现良好的状态，但它涉及，这是我杜撰的一个术语，但有点边缘摩擦。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like you have to push yourself.

就像你必须推动自己一样。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're feeling constrained.

你感觉受到限制。

It's that you're at that edge where there's real challenge.

这是因为你正处于真正挑战的边缘。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're definitely not in flow.

你肯定不处于心流状态。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fantastic.

太棒了。

Clutch state.

离合状态。

Everyone, learn it, know it, embrace it, live there for some period of time in your life- ...

每个人，学习它，了解它，拥抱它，在你的生命中生活一段时间——......

across your lifespan, and you'll be better off.

在你的一生中，你会过得更好。

I mean that.

我的意思是。

Maybe we could drill into this a little bit more.

也许我们可以更深入地探讨这一点。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because several times on this podcast or more, we've talked about the anterior midcingulate cortex, the structure that maintains size in SuperAgers who take on hard things, and this area of the brain that seems associated with tenacity which-

因为在这个播客中，我们已经多次讨论过前中扣带皮层，这是在承受坚硬事物的超级老年人中保持尺寸的结构，以及大脑中似乎与坚韧相关的区域——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

when stimulated, people feel like an impending challenge.

当受到刺激时，人们会感觉自己面临着即将到来的挑战。

There's actually neurosurgery experiments done by Joe Parvizi at Stanford.

事实上，斯坦福大学的乔·帕尔维兹（Joe Parvizi）进行了神经外科实验。

People feel like, "Oh, there's an impending challenge.

人们感觉，“哦，挑战迫在眉睫。

I'm going to lean into it." This sounds more like the clutch state

我要投入其中。”这听起来更像是离合器状态

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Certainly than flow state.

当然比流状态。

So maybe the thing we need to embrace is the clutch state.

所以也许我们需要拥抱的是离合器状态。

It's pretty catchy.

非常吸引人。

It's not quite as catchy as flow.

它不像 Flow 那样吸引人。

But I like it because it has an element of friction kind of written into it.

但我喜欢它，因为它有一种摩擦的元素写入其中。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You heard it first from Tommy Wood, folks, not me.

伙计们，你首先是从汤米·伍德那里听到的，而不是我。

A good friend who comes from the special operations community, we talked about performance years ago, and he said, "Well, there's unskilled, skilled, mastery, and virtuosity."

一位来自特种作战界的好朋友，几年前我们谈论过绩效，他说：“嗯，有不熟练的、熟练的、精通的和精湛的。”

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

And he said virtuosity is when someone who has mastery pushes out to an edge of effort where they're sort of inviting in the unknown.

他说，精湛技艺是指精通的人将努力推向极限，从而吸引未知的事物。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They don't quite know what they're going to do next.

他们不太知道下一步要做什么。

They have some semblance of an idea.

他们有一些类似的想法。

They're not being haphazard.

他们并不是随意的。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But there's an inviting in of the unknown, and they find themselves at a new level.

但未知事物的邀请，他们发现自己达到了一个新的水平。

I've probably mentioned this documentary four times in the last four episodes, but when Andy Stumpf, former Tier 1 SEAL operator, came on this podcast, former wingsuiter.

我可能在过去的四集中提到了这部纪录片四次，但是当前一级海豹突击队操作员安迪·斯坦普夫（Andy Stumpf）出现在这个播客中时，他是前翼装运动员。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Red Bull High Performance team came on here.

红牛高性能车队来到这里。

He suggested a podcast that I'm now suggest-- He suggested, excuse me, a documentary that I highly recommend, which is "The Dark Wizard," which is about Dean Potter, who was a free climber-

他建议我现在推荐一个播客——对不起，他建议我强烈推荐一部纪录片，那就是《黑巫师》，讲述的是迪恩·波特，他是一名自由登山者——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

a free solo climber turned wingsuiter, et cetera.

自由攀岩者转为翼装运动员，等等。

And you see in that documentary how somebody who's pushing to their edge and a little bit beyond, where the consequence is the death consequence, is able to access levels of skill that are jaw-dropping, I think, even to him.

你在那部纪录片中看到，一个人如何将自己推向边缘，甚至超出一点，其后果就是死亡，我认为，即使对他来说，也能够达到令人瞠目结舌的技能水平。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So does that make sense?

那么这有道理吗？

Is that sort of how you think about unskilled, skilled, mastery, virtuosity?

这就是你对非熟练、熟练、精通、精湛的看法吗？

Do you think virtuosity is like where someone's like, "All right, I've mastered this thing.

你认为精湛技艺就像有人说：“好吧，我已经掌握了这件事。

Now put me in a situation, or I'll put myself in a situation where I don't know what's going to happen, and maybe it'll all go wrong, but when it doesn't, new levels of performance emerge."

现在让我处于一种情况，或者我会让自己处于一种我不知道会发生什么的情况，也许一切都会出错，但如果没有出错，新的表现水平就会出现。”

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

As it's described that way, because people might talk about virtuosos in a skill just because they're so much better than everybody else, right?

正如所描述的那样，因为人们可能会谈论某项技能的大师，只是因为他们比其他人好得多，对吗？

But that definition requires a specific scenario and moment of performance, right?

但这个定义需要特定的场景和表演时刻，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So then that sounds a lot like how I would think about flow.

这听起来很像我对心流的看法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Right?

对吗？

And so when you look at some of the classic descriptions from individuals who've been in that kind of level, so there's this one from, so I do a lot of work in Formula 1.

因此，当你看到那些处于这种水平的人的一些经典描述时，就有这样一个描述，所以我在一级方程式赛车中做了很多工作。

So there's one from Ayrton Senna where he's-

所以有一位来自艾尔顿·塞纳 (Ayrton Senna) 的人，他是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

From who?

来自谁？

I'm sorry.

对不起。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Ayrton Senna.

艾尔顿·塞纳.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The driver?

司机？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

The driver.

司机。

Senna.

塞纳。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Senra?

森拉？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Senna.

塞纳。

S-E-N-

S-E-N-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Senna, excuse me.

塞纳，对不起。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Ayrton Senna.

艾尔顿·塞纳.

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Senra is David Senra the great podcaster.

Senra 是伟大的播客 David Senra。

He's the virtuoso of performance and business and finance podcasting.

他是表演、商业和金融播客的大师。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Don't let any of your F1 loving friends hear that part of the podcast.

不要让任何热爱 F1 的朋友听到播客的这一部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't know.

我不知道。

I like Senra.

我喜欢森拉。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Ayrton Senna, some people consider him to be the best Formula 1 driver of all time.

艾尔顿·塞纳（Ayrton Senna），有些人认为他是有史以来最好的一级方程式赛车手。

He died tragically in a crash.

他在一场车祸中不幸身亡。

But there's this famous quote from him where he's driving in the Monaco Grand Prix, and basically what he describes is that he's going faster and faster and faster.

但他在摩纳哥大奖赛上有一句著名的话，基本上他描述的是他开得越来越快。

He's like, "This is beyond my capabilities." He doesn't feel like he's actually connected to doing the thing.

他说：“这超出了我的能力范围。”他觉得自己实际上与做这件事没有联系。

It's just kind of happening.

这只是发生的事情。

He's going seconds faster around the lap than anybody else.

他绕圈跑的速度比任何人都快几秒。

And so that's kind of what, he is so good, he achieved mastery, and in that moment he's displaying virtuosity under that kind of definition.

就是这样，他太优秀了，他达到了大师的境界，在那一刻，他在这种定义下展现了精湛的技艺。

And so that feels like there's a lot of overlap there.

所以感觉那里有很多重叠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Ever since seeing this "Dark Wizard" documentary, which I've watched twice all the way through because it has a mental health component.

自从看了这部《黑巫师》纪录片以来，我从头到尾看了两遍，因为它有心理健康的成分。

It's a brilliant and beautifully shot documentary, recently released.

这是一部最近上映的精彩且拍摄精美的纪录片。

I think about this virtuosity thing constantly.

我不断地思考这种技艺的事情。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I love this notion of the clutch state because it sounds to me that that's the state that we want to seek.

但我喜欢这种离合器状态的概念，因为在我看来，这就是我们想要寻求的状态。

And the assumption is that high performers are in this relaxed, mellow state, but I'm guessing they spend a significant amount of time there and drilling the really boring stuff to make sure they can get there.

假设高绩效者处于这种放松、成熟的状态，但我猜他们会花大量时间在那里练习真正无聊的东西，以确保他们能够到达那里。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Twyla Tharp, who's in her 80s, world-class choreographer, sat in the chair that I'm in and described the daily routine of her world-class dancers.

80 多岁的世界级编舞家特怀拉·撒普 (Twyla Tharp) 坐在我坐的椅子上，向我描述了她的世界级舞者的日常生活。

They go through the most basic drills every single day, but every iteration for hours upon hours upon hours before they begin, quote-unquote, practice, right?

他们每天都会进行最基本的练习，但每次迭代都会花费几个小时，然后再开始，引用-不引用，练习，对吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Before they try and embrace the new performance piece.

在他们尝试接受新的表演作品之前。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But over and over and over, often after multiple hours of morning exercise.

但一遍又一遍，通常是在几个小时的晨练之后。

I think we don't see all of that foundational work and that it needs to be maintained, which raises a question, do we always need to maintain, practice the fundamentals?

我认为我们没有看到所有这些基础工作，并且需要维护它，这就提出了一个问题，我们是否总是需要维护、实践基础知识？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Before I answer your question, I think there's another useful thing just kind of to remember that relates to all of this.

在回答你的问题之前，我认为还有一件与所有这些相关的有用的事情需要记住。

From in athletes and sports, particularly on the training side, there's this general idea of thirds, right?

从运动员和体育运动中，特别是在训练方面，有一个三分之二的普遍概念，对吗？

A third of your sessions-

你的三分之一的会议-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

...

...

training, learning, whatever it is, are going to feel great.

培训、学习，无论是什么，都会感觉很棒。

You're going to feel really good.

你会感觉非常好。

You're just going to get stuff immediately.

你会立即得到东西。

It's going to just come to you.

它会自动来到你身边。

A third will just be average, right?

第三个就只是平均水平，对吧？

And a third are just going to suck, and you just have to show up and get it done.

第三个就很糟糕了，你只需要出现并完成它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, this is all in the same day or this is kind of across the week?

哦，这都是在同一天发生的，还是在一周内发生的？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

No, just like across the week, across months, across years, where this stuff undulates.

不，就像跨周、跨月、跨年一样，这些东西会波动。

And the main reason why I say that is because related to this sort of glorification of flow is this idea that these things should just always come easily to us.

我这么说的主要原因是因为与这种对流程的颂扬相关的是这样一种想法，即这些事情对我们来说应该总是很容易实现。

But that's completely antithetical to the idea that we have to work hard and challenge ourselves in order to build capacity, drive neuroplasticity.

但这与我们必须努力工作并挑战自我才能增强能力、推动神经可塑性的想法完全相反。

So there's kind of this weird tension between what people are seeking versus what Is actually just the part of the grind of getting better and over time.

因此，人们所追求的东西与随着时间的推移而变得更好的苦差事之间存在着一种奇怪的紧张关系。

And sometimes it is a grind.

有时这是一种磨砺。

And again, that's okay.

再说一次，没关系。

It doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.

这并不意味着你做错了。

Maybe it means you're doing it right.

也许这意味着你做得对。

When you then think about maintaining the fundamentals, I think yes, but probably it's going to depend on the scenario that you're thinking about.

当你考虑维持基本面时，我认为是的，但这可能取决于你正在考虑的场景。

Because sometimes the skill that you're performing, the fundamentals are kind of baked into that in some way.

因为有时你所表现的技能、基础知识都会以某种方式融入其中。

So it kind of depends on what the fundamentals really are.

所以这在某种程度上取决于基本面到底是什么。

So I'm thinking about one specific study that was done in pianists.

所以我正在考虑一项针对钢琴家进行的具体研究。

So it was kind of related to the Ericsson studies in violinists, right?

所以这与埃里克森对小提琴家的研究有关，对吧？

But this time they were looking at pianists.

但这一次他们关注的是钢琴家。

And so they had four groups, older and younger.

所以他们分成了四组，有年长的，有年轻的。

So the younger was like 20s to 30s, older were 50s and 60s expert and amateur pianists.

所以年轻的是20多岁到30多岁，年龄大的是50多岁和60多岁的专家和业余钢琴家。

And so the experts came from German music conservatories.

所以专家们来自德国音乐学院。

And then they looked at sort of basic skills related to moving the fingers and other things that you would do playing the piano.

然后他们研究了与移动手指以及弹钢琴时要做的其他事情相关的基本技能。

And so they were like very task specific skills related to piano playing.

因此，它们就像与钢琴演奏相关的特定任务技能。

And what they found was that the most important predictor of how well somebody performed at those piano specific skills was not their age, it was how much they practice.

他们发现，预测一个人在钢琴特定技能上表现如何的最重要因素不是他们的年龄，而是他们练习的程度。

So it's just that getting those reps in helps you maintain those sort of basic functions and maybe, right, when you are playing very complex piano pieces, you are encompassing all those fundamentals anyway, right?

所以，让这些代表参与进来可以帮助您维持这些基本功能，也许，对吧，当您演奏非常复杂的钢琴曲时，您无论如何都涵盖了所有这些基础知识，对吗？

You don't need to do your scales every day because some of that stuff is kind of built in.

你不需要每天都做体重秤，因为有些东西是内置的。

But you will also see people as they warm up, say, maybe they will do scales and things because that's part of just the warm up maybe that's routine, right?

但你也会看到人们在热身时，比如说，也许他们会做音阶之类的事情，因为这只是热身的一部分，也许这是例行公事，对吧？

This is me getting in the mode of playing a complex piece.

这是我开始演奏一首复杂曲子的模式。

But then maybe some of it is just kind of helping to maintain those fundamental skills.

但也许其中一些只是帮助保持这些基本技能。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。

I discovered AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.

我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。

The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take it every day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然每天服用的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。

AG1 is designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.

AG1 旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等方面，它通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。

I get asked pretty much all the time, "If I could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1.

我经常被问到，“如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂应该是什么？”我的答案始终是AG1。

It has just been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, mental health, and performance.

它对于支持身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面都非常有帮助。

If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。

For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free bottle of their new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 product.

AG1 限时免费赠送一瓶新的 omega-3 辅酶 Q10 产品。

Omega-3 and coenzyme Q10 are known to support cardiovascular health, cellular health, and energy generally, brain health, and much more.

众所周知，Omega-3 和辅酶 Q10 可支持心血管健康、细胞健康、能量、大脑健康等。

I personally take them both every day.

我个人每天都会服用它们。

Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of the new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.

同样，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅 AG1 即可免费获得一瓶新型 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。

So now's your opportunity to kill the 10,000 hours myth.

现在是您打破 10,000 小时神话的机会了。

I know other people have attempted to, but what does that really boil down to?

我知道其他人也曾尝试过，但这到底是什么？

Is it simply that about eight hours a day of practice for a dedicated period of time is what leads to rapid plasticity, and that's what was measured?

难道仅仅是每天大约八小时的一段专门时间的练习就能带来快速的可塑性，而这就是所测量的结果？

Or is there really some sort of rule about time under seeking clutch state?

或者在寻找离合器状态下真的存在某种关于时间的规则吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

The simple answer is what the study showed was that 10,000 hours was the average amount of time that an expert violinist had spent practicing by the time they reached 20 years old.

答案很简单，研究表明，一位小提琴专家到 20 岁时平均练习时间为 10,000 小时。

That's what the study showed.

这就是研究表明的。

They weren't even experts by that point.

那时他们甚至还不是专家。

That was how much they'd practiced essentially in their youth.

这就是他们年轻时基本上练习的程度。

So that number of hours doesn't even translate over to true expertise in violinists in this one specific example.

因此，在这个具体例子中，这一小时数甚至不能转化为小提琴家的真正专业知识。

So I don't think there's some fixed number of hours required.

所以我认为不需要固定的小时数。

It is interesting.

这很有趣。

Other parts of that study kind of looked at the practice routines of these expert violinists, and what they found was that they tended to practice for about two sessions of 60 to 90 minutes a day.

该研究的其他部分考察了这些小提琴专家的练习习惯，他们发现他们倾向于每天练习两次，每次 60 到 90 分钟。

And I think that's a pretty good rule, right?

我认为这是一个很好的规则，对吗？

If you're going to do something hard, you're pushing beyond your current skill level, focusing for 60 to 90 minutes, maybe with a couple of breaks in there a couple of times a day.

如果你要做一些困难的事情，你就要超越你目前的技能水平，集中注意力 60 到 90 分钟，也许每天休息几次。

That's probably about as much as most people can do.

这可能是大多数人能做的了。

And I think that also relates to how we perform on a day-to-day basis in other areas of life, right?

我认为这也与我们在生活其他领域的日常表现有关，对吗？

We kind of expect that we can go to work and we can work really hard for eight hours straight during the day, but the brain doesn't really work like that.

我们有点期望我们可以去上班，并且可以在白天连续工作八个小时，但大脑实际上并不是这样工作的。

If we're doing hard cognitive work, right, you're focused and highly challenged as you might be if you're a future virtuoso on the violin and you're trying to really practice and push yourself.

如果我们正在做艰苦的认知工作，对吧，你会很专注并且面临很大的挑战，就像你是未来的小提琴演奏家并且你正在努力练习和鞭策自己一样。

You can only really do that for chunks of 20 to 30 minutes, maybe a couple of times with a break, right?

你实际上只能做 20 到 30 分钟的时间，也许中间休息几次，对吧？

So that's why Pomodoro, even though there's no good studies on the Pomodoro technique, like those time periods, 25 minutes with a five minute break a few times, they do kind of fit into that kind of rhythm.

这就是为什么番茄钟，尽管没有关于番茄钟技术的很好的研究，比如那些时间段，25 分钟，中间有几次 5 分钟的休息，但它们确实有点适合这种节奏。

That translates over to multiple areas where we might want to use our brains and just remember that hard cognitive work and that process of learning can only really happen in those kinds of size of chunks if you want to do them sustainably.

这转化为我们可能想要使用大脑的多个领域，只要记住，如果你想可持续地进行，艰苦的认知工作和学习过程只能真正发生在这些大小的块中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Before I started writing my book, somebody who's published several very well-received books, said you can only write for about four solid hours per day broken up into a couple of sessions.

在我开始写书之前，一位出版了几本非常受欢迎的书的人说，你每天只能写作大约四个小时，分成几个部分。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I was like, "Come on." I mean, I'm not trying to boast, but I used to go into the lab and sit down and work on a grant for six hours or something like that.

我当时想，“来吧。”我的意思是，我并不是想吹嘘，但我曾经走进实验室，坐下来，为一项资助工作六个小时或类似的事情。

And I started thinking, like, was it really six hours?

我开始想，这真的是六个小时吗？

Go in there, see my students in post-doc, sit down.

进去，见我的博士后学生，坐下。

Okay, then there's lunch.

好吧，那就吃午饭吧。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I need to walk my dog.

我需要遛狗。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And there were some late nights, but then the next morning, I'm kind of dragging because I was in my office really late.

有一些深夜，但第二天早上，我有点拖沓，因为我在办公室很晚了。

And you get real honest with yourself real quick, and you go, "Ooh, okay." In the periods of time where I definitely pushed to the 6, 8, 10, 12 hours of just nonstop work as a deadline approached, there was a compensatory drop in-

你很快就会对自己诚实，然后你就会说：“哦，好吧。”在截止日期临近时，我肯定会坚持 6、8、10、12 小时不间断工作，但结果却出现了补偿性下降——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

output after you click send.

单击发送后输出。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so I think you're right.

所以我认为你是对的。

They're right.

他们是对的。

It's somewhere between maybe...

它可能介于两者之间...

I mean, you're saying 60 to 90 minutes, and they're saying four hours, but not a whole lot more than that for real focused, in-clutch state work.

我的意思是，你说的是 60 到 90 分钟，他们说的是 4 个小时，但对于真正专注、紧要关头的国家工作来说，这个时间并没有多太多。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So really digging in and no distractions, no phone, no checking your text messages, just...

所以真的要专心致志，没有干扰，没有电话，没有检查短信，只是......

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you ever give yourself forced constraints to get real work done?

为了完成真正的工作，你是否曾经给自己施加过强制约束？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Not to force it.

不是为了强迫它。

I will say that one of the best ways to truly get deep focused work done is to eliminate distractions.

我想说，真正完成深度专注工作的最佳方法之一就是消除干扰。

Right?

正确的？

That's one of the most important things that you can do.

这是您可以做的最重要的事情之一。

So close the email.

所以关闭电子邮件。

I will put my phone in a different room or something because nowadays your own closed Slack...

我会把我的手机放在另一个房间或其他地方，因为现在你自己的 Slack 已经关闭了......

I have Slack teams.

我有 Slack 团队。

My lab and I interact on, we message back and forth on WhatsApp.

我和我的实验室通过 WhatsApp 来回交流信息。

There's email.

有电子邮件。

I've got five or six different ways that people can constantly try and get my attention, right?

我有五六种不同的方式让人们可以不断地尝试吸引我的注意力，对吗？

So eliminating distractions is really important.

所以消除干扰真的很重要。

And again, I return to Gloria Mark's work.

我再次回到格洛丽亚·马克的作品。

She wrote an excellent book called "Attention Span," if anybody's really interested in this.

如果有人真的对此感兴趣的话，她写了一本很棒的书，名为《注意力广度》。

But you get used to a pattern of distraction such that when you're not actually being distracted, you will distract yourself, right?

但你已经习惯了一种分心的模式，这样当你实际上没有分心时，你就会分散自己的注意力，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

Wow.

哇。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

But you can be trained out of that as well.

但你也可以从中接受培训。

But so you know that thing where you're trying to do work and you reach for your phone for no reason?

但是你知道当你正在努力工作时却无缘无故地伸手拿手机的情况吗？

It's because your brain is kind of used to this pattern of around about now, somebody will text me or send me an email, and I'll reach for my phone.

这是因为你的大脑已经习惯了现在的这种模式，有人会给我发短信或给我发电子邮件，我会伸手去拿手机。

So you go looking for it-

那你就去找吧——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

...

...

even if it hasn't happened.

即使它没有发生。

But again, you can train yourself out of that if you have periods where you're not getting constantly distracted.

但同样，如果你有一段时间不会经常分心，你可以训练自己摆脱这种情况。

So I will eliminate notifications.

所以我会取消通知。

But at least for me, what I've found is that if I have a ton of friction in terms of trying to get something done, I will usually step away from it, because there's something in there that just needs to click or come back before I can really engage in it.

但至少对我来说，我发现，如果我在尝试完成某件事时遇到大量阻力，我通常会放弃它，因为那里有一些东西只需要点击或返回，然后我才能真正参与其中。

Or-

或者-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You mean if you're at a sticking point.

你的意思是如果你正处于困境。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So if I'm at a sticking point or it's like if something feels like it's just not coming in the moment, I will usually switch over to something else, which is also kind of a normal...

因此，如果我遇到困难，或者感觉有些事情暂时无法完成，我通常会转向其他事情，这也是一种正常现象......

It's one of a possible set of patterns of work, which is that you have two or three projects you're working on at any given time.

这是一组可能的工作模式之一，即您在任何给定时间都有两个或三个正在处理的项目。

If one just isn't quite working, then you can switch over to the other one and come back to it.

如果其中一个不太有效，那么您可以切换到另一个，然后再返回。

And then the alternative is that when the deadline is so close and this often happens with a grant deadline or when I was writing my book and there's a book deadline, and I've got to get this to my editor in however many days or hours, I tend to just not need to eliminate those things because I'll just focus in.

另一种选择是，当截止日期如此接近时，这种情况经常发生在拨款截止日期或当我写书时，有一个书籍截止日期，而我必须在几天或几小时内将其交给我的编辑，我往往不需要消除这些事情，因为我会专注于。

I don't feel that kind of draw to be distracted by other things.

我不觉得有那种被其他事情分散注意力的吸引力。

But that usually only happens for relatively short periods of time, right?

但这通常只会发生相对较短的时间，对吧？

It's going to be a day or two or hours during a day rather than extended periods of time.

这将是一天、两天或一天中的几个小时，而不是很长一段时间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are you familiar with this recent study about phone on the table, phone in the bag?

您熟悉最近这项关于桌上手机、包里手机的研究吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Where you would just remind people that your phone has to be out of the room.

你只是提醒人们你的手机必须离开房间。

Even if it's in your bag beneath your chair turned off, you can still focus, but there's a cost.

即使它在你椅子下面的包里，关闭后，你仍然可以集中注意力，但这是有代价的。

Your cognitive flexibility, et cetera, really suffers.

你的认知灵活性等确实受到了影响。

So that means that the brain is unconsciously expecting a call.

这意味着大脑正在无意识地等待电话。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're sort of waiting for it.

你有点在等待它。

And the way you describe this attentional break expectation thing that we get entrained to interruptions is really interesting.

你描述我们被干扰的注意力分散期望的方式真的很有趣。

Maybe this is why meditation is such a useful tool for improving focus, is that it's just a forced no breaks-

也许这就是为什么冥想是提高注意力如此有用的工具，因为它只是一种强迫性的不间断的休息——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

thing.

事。

Although it's pretty easy to drift in meditation if you are not used to doing 20 minutes of meditation, you sit down to do that, you set the timer, your brain can end up way off the trail.

虽然如果你不习惯进行 20 分钟的冥想，那么在冥想中很容易走神，但你坐下来冥想，设置计时器，你的大脑最终可能会偏离轨道。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

There could be some benefit to that as well, right?

这也可能有一些好处，对吧？

Because without kind of building that in, and I don't routinely meditate, but unless you have some part of your day where actually you're not either putting in information, distracting yourself, thinking about a specific thing, right?

因为如果没有这种构建，我不会定期冥想，但除非你在一天中的某些时候实际上你既不会输入信息，也不会分散自己的注意力，也不会思考特定的事情，对吧？

You don't necessarily get that time to integrate.

您不一定有时间进行整合。

The classic is you come up with your best ideas in the shower, right?

最经典的是你在淋浴时想出最好的想法，对吧？

Because that's actually the time when you don't have your phone on you, and you're not watching TV, and you're not doing all these other things at the same time.

因为这实际上是你没有带手机、没有看电视、也没有同时做所有其他事情的时间。

So maybe, yes, that's not what meditation is formally for, but it could potentially be beneficial if your mind's going to wander, making new connections, coming up with new ideas, having that space and time to do it could potentially be beneficial, too.

所以也许，是的，这并不是冥想的正式用途，但如果你的思想能够漫游，建立新的联系，提出新的想法，那么它可能是有益的，有足够的空间和时间来做这件事也可能是有益的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In these studies, these large scale trials, what was the diet intervention?

在这些研究、这些大规模试验中，饮食干预是什么？

Can we distill it down to some things that everyone should do or ought to consider?

我们能否将其提炼为每个人都应该做或应该考虑的一些事情？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Most interventions in the sort of cognitive and psychological space are focused on some version of the Mediterranean diet.

大多数认知和心理空间干预措施都集中在某种形式的地中海饮食上。

There's the MIND diet, Mediterranean intervention to prevent neurodegenerative delay.

还有 MIND 饮食、地中海干预来预防神经退行性延迟。

It came out of the Rush Memory and Aging Project And it's basically just a version of the Mediterranean diet, focused on dementia prevention.

它来自“Rush Memory and Aging Project”，它基本上只是地中海饮食的一个版本，重点是预防痴呆症。

And the way they initially created it was they looked at foods that people ate more or less of and created a score, and those who had a higher score had a lower risk of later dementia.

他们最初创建它的方式是观察人们吃或多或少的食物并创建一个分数，分数较高的人后期患痴呆症的风险较低。

It wasn't an intervention when it was first developed, but that was kind of the version.

它最初开发时并不是一种干预，但这就是版本。

It was a kind of combination of the Mediterranean diet and the DASH diet, which is like a anti-hypertension blood pressure treatment type diet.

它是一种地中海饮食和DASH饮食的结合体，类似于抗高血压血压治疗型饮食。

So it's seafood, vegetables, berries, whole grains, that kind of stuff.

所以它是海鲜、蔬菜、浆果、全谷物，诸如此类的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not too much saturated fat or animal protein.

没有太多的饱和脂肪或动物蛋白。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

And so this is very similar to the diet they used in the SMILES trial, which was the first randomized controlled trial in depression that showed significant improvements in mood symptoms.

因此，这与他们在 SMILES 试验中使用的饮食非常相似，这是第一个抑郁症随机对照试验，显示情绪症状有显着改善。

I think the principles are useful, but there's not necessarily a huge amount of evidence to say that this is the way that you should or you have to eat to maintain cognitive health.

我认为这些原则很有用，但不一定有大量证据表明这是您应该或必须采取的饮食方式来保持认知健康。

There was actually a big trial of the MIND diet.

实际上，人们对 MIND 饮食进行了一次大试验。

It was published in the New England Journal of Medicine a couple of years ago, and they compared the MIND diet to standard caloric restriction.

几年前，该研究发表在《新英格兰医学杂志》上，他们将 MIND 饮食与标准热量限制进行了比较。

And actually, they saw similar benefits in both groups.

事实上，他们在两组中都看到了类似的好处。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

There have been big observational studies that have looked at how much their diet looks like a Mediterranean diet and those whose diets look more like Mediterranean diets, yes, they have a lower risk of dementia.

有大量的观察性研究观察了他们的饮食与地中海饮食的相似程度，以及那些饮食看起来更像地中海饮食的人，是的，他们患痴呆症的风险较低。

Of course, this is observational data, so you can't say it's causal.

当然，这是观察数据，所以不能说这是因果关系。

But what's interesting in some of these studies, there was a big one that came out of the UK Biobank, was that they took out individual foods or food components of the Mediterranean diet to see if that changed the relationship between the Mediterranean diet and dementia risk.

但其中一些研究中有趣的是，英国生物银行提出了一项重大研究，他们取出了地中海饮食中的个别食物或食物成分，看看这是否改变了地中海饮食与痴呆风险之间的关系。

And there was no food or olive oil or food group, or you're eating more or less meat that changed the relationship between the Mediterranean diet and dementia risk.

没有任何食物、橄榄油或食物组，或者你吃的肉或多或少会改变地中海饮食与痴呆风险之间的关系。

So what that tells me is it's much more about whole foods.

这告诉我，全食的重要性要大得多。

They're nutrient dense rather than avoiding any...

它们营养丰富，而不是避免任何...

You have to consume lots of olive oil, or you have to restrict meat.

你必须消耗大量橄榄油，或者你必须限制肉类。

Because if those things are eaten in the context of all this other stuff, it's really that bigger context of diet quality and nutrient density that really matters.

因为如果这些东西是在所有其他东西的背景下吃的，那么饮食质量和营养密度的更大背景才是真正重要的。

So the parts of diet that I think about are the-- There's three.

所以我考虑的饮食部分是——共有三个。

So there's energy, there's nutrients, and then there's overall dietary pattern.

所以有能量，有营养，然后是整体饮食模式。

So one of the confounding things about that trial I told you about with the MIND diet versus caloric restriction is you're like, well, the MIND diet should win out.

因此，关于我告诉过你的关于 MIND 饮食与热量限制的试验，令人困惑的事情之一是，你会想，嗯，MIND 饮食应该胜出。

How does caloric restriction do just as well?

热量限制如何发挥同样的作用？

And in the kind of average population, we tend to have some issues with metabolic health and have been in a state of chronic energy excess for some period of time.

而在一般人群中，我们往往会出现一些代谢健康问题，并在一段时间内处于长期能量过剩的状态。

There's been some very nice studies that have looked at brain aging and brain volume or brain reserve across different populations.

有一些非常好的研究考察了不同人群的大脑衰老和大脑容量或大脑储备。

There was one group that looked at different tribes in Bolivia, the Bolivian Tsimane, who are a hunter-gatherer group, the Moseten, who are kind of an intermediate group between the sort of the Tsimane and like a standard kind of industrialized group, and then industrialized humans in the US and Europe.

有一个群体研究了玻利维亚的不同部落，即玻利维亚提斯曼人，他们是一个狩猎采集群体，莫塞滕人，是介于提斯曼人和标准工业化群体之间的中间群体，然后是美国和欧洲的工业化人类。

And what they found is this kind of this bell-shaped curve between energy availability and brain volume.

他们发现能量可用性和脑容量之间存在这种钟形曲线。

And in general, brain volume, the more the better, we think.

一般来说，我们认为脑容量越多越好。

And so if you're chronically calorically restricted, your brain is smaller, because you just don't have the resources to invest in the structure, and to maintain it.

因此，如果你长期限制热量摄入，你的大脑就会变小，因为你没有资源来投资和维护它的结构。

At the other end, you see the same thing.

在另一端，你会看到同样的事情。

So if you're in a chronic state of caloric excess, you also tend to have a smaller brain on average.

因此，如果您长期处于热量过剩状态，平均而言您的大脑也往往较小。

And this is related to metabolic disease, and potentially what comes with it, higher levels of inflammation, high blood pressure, things like that, that we know can negatively impact the brain.

这与代谢疾病以及随之而来的潜在疾病有关，例如更高水平的炎症、高血压等，我们知道这些疾病会对大脑产生负面影响。

So the most important thing, and I think this is where some of the benefits of caloric restriction happened in that trial compared to the MIND diet, was that people's cognition improved just because they decreased their energy intake to a point that was essentially what their brain needed and what supported their overall physical health, which then affects cognitive health and brain volume and brain function.

因此，最重要的是，我认为，与 MIND 饮食相比，该试验中热量限制的一些好处在于，人们的认知能力得到了改善，因为他们将能量摄入量减少到了大脑所需的水平，并支持了他们的整体身体健康，从而影响了认知健康、大脑体积和大脑功能。

So the first thing to do is to make sure that you're eating enough, but not too much.

因此，首先要做的就是确保自己吃得足够多，但不能吃太多。

And that's very simplistic, but energy is really critical.

这很简单，但能量确实至关重要。

Energy availability, not too low, not too high.

能源利用率，不太低，也不太高。

Then the next thing that you need is nutrients.

那么接下来你需要的是营养。

We know there are several critical nutrients related to cognitive function and risk of dementia.

我们知道有几种关键营养素与认知功能和痴呆风险相关。

The ones that we have the best evidence for are vitamin D, iron, omega-3 fatty acids, the B vitamins involved, and the B vitamins involved in methylation, so particularly B12 and folate, also potentially B6 and riboflavin, although that might depend a little bit more on the individual.

我们拥有最好证据的证据包括维生素 D、铁、omega-3 脂肪酸、相关 B 族维生素以及参与甲基化的 B 族维生素，尤其是维生素 B12 和叶酸，也可能含有维生素 B6 和核黄素，尽管这可能更多地取决于个人。

Then there are some other nutrients that have some pretty good evidence for them.

还有一些其他营养素有一些很好的证据。

So many of the antioxidant polyphenols, things that you get from berries, coffee, tea, chocolate, the carotenoids that make things orange, yellow, and red, lutein, zeaxanthin, astaxanthin, if it comes from seafood, that's what makes shrimp and salmon pink.

从浆果、咖啡、茶、巧克力中获取的抗氧化剂多酚、使物体呈现橙色、黄色和红色的类胡萝卜素、叶黄素、玉米黄质、虾青素，如果来自海鲜，它们就会使虾和鲑鱼呈粉红色。

And then, some other aspects like dietary fiber seems to have some benefits as well.

然后，膳食纤维等其他一些方面似乎也有一些好处。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not magnesium.

不是镁。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So magnesium is absolutely in there, too.

所以镁绝对也在那里。

And in general, I think, so magnesium, zinc, then there's some of the structural lipid components, things like choline and ethanolamine that you might get from nuts and seeds or eggs.

总的来说，我认为，镁、锌，还有一些结构性脂质成分，比如胆碱和乙醇胺，你可以从坚果、种子或鸡蛋中获得。

They have some slightly less evidence, really when you're looking at brain changes over time and dementia risk.

他们的证据稍微少一些，尤其是当你观察大脑随时间的变化和痴呆风险时。

But those certainly do seem to be related to cognitive function.

但这些似乎确实与认知功能有关。

So there are some studies that show that those who have lower magnesium intakes tend, on average, to perform Less well on some cognitive function tests.

因此，有一些研究表明，镁摄入量较低的人在某些认知功能测试中的平均表现往往较差。

So all of those do seem to be important.

所以所有这些似乎都很重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have two questions about nutrients and brain health in short and long term, and they have to do with interactions between nutrients-

我有两个关于短期和长期营养素和大脑健康的问题，它们与营养素之间的相互作用有关 -

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

which at least to my understanding, are rarely explored.

至少据我了解，很少有人对此进行探索。

You'll see studies of supplementing omega-3 or having people eat some fatty fish or less and so on, but rarely in the presence or absence of some other vitamin that can potentially impact the same pathways.

您会看到补充 omega-3 或让人们吃一些或更少的脂肪鱼等的研究，但很少在存在或不存在可能影响相同途径的其他维生素的情况下进行。

So there's synergy, there's also necessity, so that could impact results.

因此，存在协同作用，也存在必要性，因此这可能会影响结果。

The other piece is, on what timescale are these nutrients needed and on what timescale are they metabolized?

另一个问题是，这些营养素需要什么时间尺度以及它们在什么时间尺度上代谢？

So maybe to just kind of drill into the second question first.

所以也许首先要深入探讨第二个问题。

So, I'm not out here as like the defender of supplements, but I've been taking supplements in various forms and eating whole foods and eating generally healthily, less so when I was younger, but still pretty healthy and more so as I get older.

所以，我并不是补充剂的捍卫者，但我一直在服用各种形式的补充剂，吃天然食品，而且饮食总体健康，年轻时不那么健康，但仍然相当健康，随着年龄的增长更健康。

But here's where my brain goes, wait, whole food is great, but let's say dark leafy greens have a bunch of things in them that are fundamentally important for brain and bodily health.

但这就是我的大脑的想法，等等，天然食物很棒，但是深色绿叶蔬菜中含有很多对大脑和身体健康至关重要的物质。

Great.

伟大的。

And they have fiber, et cetera.

它们有纤维等等。

How many times a week am I eating dark leafy greens?

我每周吃几次深色绿叶蔬菜？

Let's say I do Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I'm great, but then I'm traveling on Thursday, Friday.

假设我周一、周二、周三去，我很好，但周四、周五我要旅行。

Should I be just supplementing Thursday, Friday?

我应该只补充周四、周五吗？

Am I good until the next week?

下周之前我还好吗？

I think one of the reasons why eating really well, I think everyone knows what that means, enough calories, not too many, mostly whole foods, et cetera, enough vegetables, fruits, and high quality protein and quality fats.

我认为吃得很好的原因之一，我想每个人都知道这意味着什么，足够的卡路里，而不是太多，主要是天然食品，等等，足够的蔬菜，水果，以及优质蛋白质和优质脂肪。

I think the reason why supplements still become enticing to me, maybe even necessary, is because you can take them every day very easily.

我认为补充剂仍然对我有吸引力，甚至可能是必要的，是因为你可以很容易地每天服用它们。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you can make sure that you're in range and maybe above range.

因此，您可以确保自己处于范围内，甚至可能超出范围。

So let's take one of these things.

让我们来看其中一件事情。

Okay, omega-3 fatty acids.

好吧，omega-3 脂肪酸。

I believe that the data are pretty compelling.

我相信这些数据非常有说服力。

They can be helpful-

他们可以提供帮助-

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for health, maybe even brain health.

为了健康，甚至大脑健康。

Certainly, I believe that.

当然，我相信这一点。

But let's say the early part of my week is omega-3 rich and the later part of my week is omega-3 poor.

但假设我一周的早期 omega-3 含量丰富，而一周的后期 omega-3 含量较低。

Am I good?

我好吗？

Versus spreading it out across the week.

而不是将其分散到一周内。

It just becomes difficult to eat in a truly healthy way if it's the case that it has to be consistent every 24 hours.

如果必须每 24 小时保持一致，那么以真正健康的方式饮食就变得很困难。

So what do we know?

那么我们知道什么呢？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So again, I think we're often tempted to overcomplicate this and try and think, oh, I have to hit all these things at this interval, and if I can't do that, then I have to supplement.

再说一次，我认为我们经常试图把这个事情变得过于复杂，并尝试思考，哦，我必须在这个时间间隔内完成所有这些事情，如果我做不到，那么我必须补充。

And in reality, we probably have more buffer in the system than we realize.

事实上，系统中的缓冲区可能比我们意识到的要多。

So, omega-3 fats is a really good example.

所以，omega-3 脂肪就是一个很好的例子。

Your adipose tissue, your fat tissue is a depot.

你的脂肪组织，你的脂肪组织是一个仓库。

It kind of stores excess omega-3s.

它可以储存多余的 omega-3。

I actually wrote a paper on this with a colleague of mine, Rory Heath, a few years ago.

事实上，几年前我和我的同事罗里·希思 (Rory Heath) 就此写了一篇论文。

The long-chain omega-3s that we have in our fat stores may help to explain why supplementation does or doesn't work in some of these trials.

我们脂肪储存中的长链 omega-3 可能有助于解释为什么补充剂在某些试验中有效或无效。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Because some people just have more kind of hanging around.

因为有些人只是更愿意闲逛。

And if you eat more than you need on one day, especially in a state of caloric excess, that's going to be stored in your fat tissue, and then when you're sleeping or when you initiate lipolysis, the breakdown of fat, so particularly during periods like if you're doing exercise, those then get released and the brain then has access to them.

如果你一天吃的比你需要的多，特别是在热量过剩的情况下，这些热量就会储存在你的脂肪组织中，然后当你睡觉时或当你开始脂肪分解时，脂肪就会分解，所以特别是在你锻炼的时候，这些热量就会被释放出来，然后大脑就可以访问它们。

So there's some studies that show that when you...

所以有一些研究表明，当你...

But this relates to the form of the omega-3s as well.

但这也与 omega-3 的形式有关。

So many people will tell you that you have to take omega-3s in the phospholipid form, which is like a special supplement.

很多人会告诉你，你必须服用磷脂形式的 omega-3，这就像一种特殊的补充剂。

You can get it from krill, and the form is where the fat is attached to a phospholipid head group, just like it would be if it was sitting in a cell membrane.

你可以从磷虾中获取它，其形式是脂肪附着在磷脂头基上，就像它位于细胞膜中一样。

And there's a specific pathway for those to get into the brain.

这些物质进入大脑有一个特定的途径。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's only krill or it's fish oil also?

只含磷虾还是也含鱼油？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

No, so fish tends to be the triglyceride form.

不，所以鱼往往是甘油三酯形式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Which is your glycerol and then three fatty acids attached.

这是你的甘油，然后是三个脂肪酸。

When you compare a single dose of phospholipid versus triglyceride form, then more of the phospholipid form gets into the brain.

当您比较单剂量的磷脂与甘油三酯形式时，更多的磷脂形式进入大脑。

Most of this comes from rodent studies.

其中大部分来自啮齿动物研究。

But what's interesting is that if you supplement over several days, it all kind of comes out in the wash because the triglyceride form-

但有趣的是，如果你补充几天，它就会在洗涤中消失，因为甘油三酯形成 -

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

...

...

cycles through the adipose tissue as a depot, and then it gets released, and the brain can then use it.

脂肪组织作为储存库进行循环，然后被释放，大脑就可以使用它。

So if you're going to take just one day of supplement and you want to get as much of that omega-3 in your brain, yes, you should take the phospholipid form.

因此，如果您只服用一天的补充剂，并且希望大脑中获得尽可能多的 omega-3，那么您应该服用磷脂形式。

But the form that comes in seafood, which is primarily the triglyceride form, is regulated through the body's fat stores.

但海鲜中的甘油三酯主要是通过体内的脂肪储存来调节的。

So this is a really long way of me telling you, if you eat some fish early in the week, you don't then have to supplement later in the week, as long as you've got enough, and especially if you've consistently eaten seafood across your entire life, because you probably have a bit of a depot.

所以我要告诉你的是，如果你在本周早些时候吃了一些鱼，那么你就不必在本周晚些时候补充，只要你摄入足够，尤其是如果你一生都在吃海鲜，因为你可能有一点储备。

And so what you see in several trials where they've given omega-3s to decrease dementia risk or improve cognitive function, so many studies like that have been done.

所以你在几项试验中看到，他们给予 omega-3 来降低痴呆风险或改善认知功能，已经进行了很多这样的研究。

There was actually a very recent one that just came out of USC where they gave omega-3s for a long period of time.

事实上，最近有一个刚从南加州大学出来的，他们在那里长期提供 omega-3。

They measured omega-3 levels in the CSF, in the spinal fluid of these people to show that the omega-3s were getting into the brain.

他们测量了这些人的脑脊液和脊髓液中的 omega-3 水平，以表明 omega-3 正在进入大脑。

They didn't see any changes in terms of cognitive function or brain structure on an MRI scan.

在核磁共振扫描中，他们没有看到认知功能或大脑结构有任何变化。

So then everybody's like, "Well, omega-3s don't work." But when you kind of squint at the data, and they didn't quite give me the data that I wanted, but when you look at it, the people in the trial just didn't seem that omega-3 deficient in the first place.

所以每个人都会说，“好吧，omega-3 不起作用。”但是当你仔细查看这些数据时，他们并没有给我我想要的数据，但是当你仔细观察时，你会发现参加试验的人一开始似乎并没有那么缺乏 omega-3。

So if this isn't something that you need more of to start with, giving a load more of it isn't going to make that much of a difference, right?

因此，如果这不是您需要更多的东西来开始，那么提供更多的东西不会产生太大的影响，对吧？

And- This is the case for all of these different supplements.

而且-所有这些不同的补充剂都是如此。

So the best advice, if you have access to it, is to test your levels.

因此，如果您有机会获得它，最好的建议是测试您的水平。

Test your vitamin D levels, test your hemoglobin and iron levels, test your omega-3 levels, test your homocysteine levels, which is a marker of a B vitamin status, which we know is a risk factor for cognitive decline, dementia as well.

测试您的维生素 D 水平，测试您的血红蛋白和铁水平，测试您的 omega-3 水平，测试您的同型半胱氨酸水平，这是 B 族维生素状态的标志，我们知道这也是认知能力下降和痴呆的危险因素。

So if you can test your levels and it shows that you need more, and yes, the normal ranges that you have on a blood test are not necessarily the same as the risk ranges.

因此，如果您可以测试自己的水平，并且表明您需要更多，是的，您在血液测试中得到的正常范围不一定与风险范围相同。

So, homocysteine is a good example.

所以，同型半胱氨酸就是一个很好的例子。

A normal range for homocysteine, which goes up if you need some of these methylation-dependent B vitamins, the normal range might go up to 15 or 16.

如果您需要一些甲基化依赖性 B 族维生素，同型半胱氨酸的正常范围会上升，正常范围可能会上升到 15 或 16。

But we know the risk is definitely elevated above 13 and is probably elevated above 10 to 11.

但我们知道风险肯定高于 13，并且可能高于 10 至 11。

So what your target range really might be is probably lower than what the normal range might be.

因此，您的目标范围的实际值可能低于正常范围。

But we have very good evidence that if you then supplement when somebody is above that range and you bring that down, you see significant improvements in cognitive function or slowed cognitive decline.

但我们有很好的证据表明，如果你在某人高于这个范围时补充，然后将其降低，你会看到认知功能的显着改善或认知能力下降的减缓。

That is particularly the case for omega-3s and B vitamins that lower homocysteine.

对于降低同型半胱氨酸的 omega-3 和 B 族维生素尤其如此。

And so this is the interactions that you were talking about earlier, and this is the best one that we know of, although I'm sure there are many more.

这就是您之前谈到的互动，这是我们所知道的最好的互动，尽管我确信还有更多。

Like I said, there are lots of trials that have given omega-3s or have given B vitamins to lower homocysteine and just haven't seen much of an effect.

就像我说的，有很多试验都给予 omega-3 或 B 族维生素来降低同型半胱氨酸，但没有看到太大的效果。

And everybody goes, "Oh, well, they don't work." But there are now at least three randomized control trials that have shown that omega-3 status and B vitamin status interact, and they're dependent on one another.

每个人都会说：“哦，好吧，它们不起作用。”但现在至少有三项随机对照试验表明 omega-3 状态和 B 族维生素状态是相互作用的，并且它们相互依赖。

So if you give B vitamins to somebody who has elevated homocysteine, you bring down their homocysteine, but they have poor omega-3 levels, you don't see any benefit.

因此，如果您给同型半胱氨酸升高的人服用 B 族维生素，您会降低他们的同型半胱氨酸，但他们的 omega-3 水平较差，您看不到任何好处。

And that's been shown in two trials.

这已在两项试验中得到证实。

It was originally shown in the VITACOG trial that was run out of the University of Oxford.

它最初是在牛津大学进行的 VITACOG 试验中得到展示的。

It was then replicated in the B Proof trial.

然后它在 B Proof 试验中被复制。

Then the other side has also been shown.

那么另一面也已经展现出来了。

In the OMEGA-AD trial, they showed that supplementing with omega-3s didn't result in any benefit if people had elevated homocysteine.

在 OMEGA-AD 试验中，他们表明，如果人们的同型半胱氨酸升高，补充 omega-3 不会带来任何益处。

So that's just one example.

这只是一个例子。

And you can imagine, like you said, there are probably lots of these.

你可以想象，就像你说的，可能有很多这样的东西。

And if we're not going into a study actually looking like, well, what nutrients does this person need, and then supplementing with them, you're not going to find any effect.

如果我们不进行一项实际上看起来像这个人需要什么营养素，然后补充它们的研究，你就不会发现任何效果。

You shouldn't be surprised when the study doesn't show anything.

当研究没有显示任何结果时，你不应该感到惊讶。

Potentially, the one recent example of just giving a broad-based set of nutrients with a multivitamin that seemed to work fairly well was the COSMOS study that people may have heard of.

最近的一个例子是人们可能听说过的 COSMOS 研究，它似乎只提供了一系列广泛的营养素和多种维生素，效果相当好。

It was thousands of people, of older adults, and they were given either a multivitamin or a flavonoid supplement.

有成千上万的老年人，他们服用了多种维生素或类黄酮补充剂。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like a Centrum-type vitamin, right?

它就像善存型维生素，对吧？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

It was Centrum Silver.

这是 Centrum 银牌。

The most basic multivitamin, just 100% of the recommended daily allowance.

最基本的复合维生素，只是建议每日摄入量的 100%。

No massive doses of anything.

没有大剂量的任何东西。

And in that study, those who got the multivitamin saw changes in cognitive function that suggested some improvements.

在这项研究中，那些服用多种维生素的人看到了认知功能的变化，这表明他们的认知功能有所改善。

But that was literally just covering the bases.

但这实际上只是覆盖了基础。

No massive doses, the most basic multivitamin.

无需大剂量，最基本的多种维生素。

So in the general population, I think you could say that something like that is probably a reasonable strategy.

因此，对于一般人群，我认为你可以说类似的事情可能是一个合理的策略。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

But what they also showed was that supplementing with this antioxidant cocoa flavanol was only beneficial in those who tended to have a poor quality diet to start with.

但他们还表明，补充这种抗氧化剂可可黄烷醇仅对那些饮食质量较差的人有益。

So they just weren't getting many of these kind of compounds for their diet.

所以他们的饮食中并没有摄入很多此类化合物。

If you're drinking a lot of coffee, eating a lot of berries, seeing a lot of fruits and vegetables, you probably don't need it because you're already getting it.

如果你喝了很多咖啡，吃了很多浆果，看了很多水果和蔬菜，你可能不需要它，因为你已经得到了它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。

Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.

功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。

This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.

通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。

They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.

他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。

Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.

Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。

For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.

例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。

As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did.

因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，而且确实如此。

In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.

在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。

My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.

我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。

Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.

Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。

How else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?

否则你怎么知道幕后发生了什么？

And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.

虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。

In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.

事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。

But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.

但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。

A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year.

Function 会员每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。

And if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.

如果您考虑一下它提供的信息、它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。

To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.

要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.

同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。

Thank you for that clarification.

谢谢你的澄清。

I look forward to a day, hopefully not long from now, where people get their blood work done.

我期待着有一天，希望不久之后，人们可以完成血液检查。

They are told and they decide, it's a collaboration after all, which supplements to take.

他们被告知并决定，这毕竟是一次合作，需要服用哪些补充剂。

Ideally, those supplements are tailored to them, so it's not gazillion tablets and capsules, and then they can redo their blood work and see whether or not things come into range.

理想情况下，这些补充剂是为他们量身定制的，因此不是无数的片剂和胶囊，然后他们可以重新进行血液检查，看看情况是否在范围内。

And of course, that should be measured against subjective experience of well-being and sleep and all of that.

当然，这应该根据幸福感和睡眠等主观体验来衡量。

That's not hard to do in today's environment of technology and trackers and blood testing.

在当今技术、追踪器和血液检测的环境下，这并不难做到。

It's just that we're a little bit in the Still in the '90s, even just the way that most people talk about supplements, certainly not you, but I think when people hear supplements, they go, "Oh, it's expensive urine." Okay, that's vitamin, minerals, maybe some of that is just getting urinated out.

只是我们有点停留在 90 年代，即使只是大多数人谈论补充剂的方式，当然不是你，但我认为当人们听到补充剂时，他们会说，“哦，这是昂贵的尿液。”好吧，那是维生素、矿物质，也许其中一些刚刚被尿掉了。

But then there's food replacement supplementation, and then there's supplements to get a specific desired effect, like speed up the transition time to sleep, get more slow wave sleep, more focus, et cetera.

但还有食物替代补充剂，还有获得特定预期效果的补充剂，例如加快入睡的过渡时间、获得更多的慢波睡眠、更集中注意力等等。

So it's unfortunate that we don't have good nomenclature like we do in science-

所以不幸的是我们没有像科学领域那样好的术语——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

where words are very important so that people can communicate with accuracy.

在这里，言语非常重要，这样人们才能准确地进行交流。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I also wonder whether, okay, if one gram of Omega-3 EPA per day is good, but maybe three is better, even though I'm at upper range, upper reference range.

我还想知道每天一克 Omega-3 EPA 是否良好，但也许三克更好，即使我处于上限、上限参考范围。

And this is something that nobody really wants to address because then it sounds like quote unquote "biohacking." But ultimately, I think people want to feel good.

这是没有人真正想要解决的问题，因为这听起来就像引用“生物黑客”一样。但最终，我认为人们想要感觉良好。

They want to live longer.

他们想活得更久。

No one wants to do anything dangerous.

没有人愿意做任何危险的事情。

I feel like we're really in the prehistoric times with how most people think about nutrition and supplementation.

我觉得我们真的处于史前时代，大多数人对营养和补充剂的看法都是如此。

I feel like the last 40 years have been spent mostly focusing on what's bad for us.

我觉得过去 40 年主要关注的是对我们不利的事情。

Okay, trans fat's bad.

好吧，反式脂肪不好。

Fried food's bad.

油炸食品不好。

Eating too much, bad.

吃太多了，不好。

Right?

正确的？

Energy toxicity, bad.

能量毒性，不好。

Too much alcohol, bad.

酒喝多了，不好。

Zero is better than any, but you could probably drink a little bit and be fine.

零比任何都好，但你可能喝一点就没事了。

Okay, if you're going to take nicotine, don't smoke it or vapor, dipper.

好吧，如果你要服用尼古丁，不要吸尼古丁或蒸气，北斗星。

We sort of figured it out.

我们大概明白了。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

Don't hit your head.

别撞到头了

If you do, don't hit it twice.

如果这样做，请不要击中两次。

We've sort of been spending so much time on the don'ts that now I feel like we're in this exciting time of what can you do for one's health?

我们花了太多的时间在不该做的事情上，现在我觉得我们正处于这个激动人心的时刻，你可以为一个人的健康做些什么？

And then there's this divide, right?

然后就存在这种分歧，对吗？

Just eat whole foods, you'll be fine, and you've actually convinced me that we'll be fine.

只要吃天然食品，你就会没事的，而且你实际上让我相信我们会没事的。

The question is, could I be that much better?

问题是，我能做得更好吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

This is really interesting to me because there's two different parts to it, potentially.

这对我来说真的很有趣，因为它可能有两个不同的部分。

Although, they may end up being the same thing.

尽管如此，它们最终可能是同一件事。

So one is, if we're thinking broadly about improving brain health, cognition at the population level, what's really important is kind of raising the floor.

因此，如果我们广泛思考改善大脑健康和人口认知水平，那么真正重要的是提高下限。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Like, what is going to work for everybody and get most of us most of the way there?

比如，什么对每个人都有效，并且能让我们大多数人顺利实现这一目标？

So like, that really is improving food quality, and then access to those foods as well, right?

所以，这确实是在提高食品质量，然后再提高获得这些食品的机会，对吧？

Because that can be very inequitable.

因为这可能非常不公平。

Like, can people afford it?

比如，人们买得起吗？

Do they know how to cook it?

他们知道怎么煮吗？

Can they access it?

他们可以访问它吗？

And then within that, I think we also know, we have very good evidence for cutoffs that predict risk.

然后，我想我们也知道，我们有非常好的证据来证明预测风险的截止点。

And if you can't get those nutrients from food, I think we should supplement.

如果你不能从食物中获取这些营养，我认为我们应该补充。

I like to call nutrients like the great leveler.

我喜欢将营养素称为“伟大的矫平剂”。

Of like, there's no point in arguing about different diets because your body requires these nutrients, and I don't care where you get them from, as long as you get them, right?

当然，争论不同的饮食是没有意义的，因为你的身体需要这些营养素，我不在乎你从哪里获得它们，只要你得到它们，对吗？

So if you need to get them from supplements, I think that's fine.

因此，如果您需要从补充剂中获取它们，我认为没问题。

That should be fine.

那应该没问题。

When you then get kind of to the next level, like how much further can we push function?

当你达到一个新的水平时，比如我们可以将功能推进一步到什么程度？

My answer is, I genuinely don't know.

我的回答是，我真的不知道。

Like when you say like-

就像当你说喜欢时——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

...

...

so if I test my Omega-3 index, right?

那么如果我测试我的 Omega-3 指数，对吗？

You said it was at kind of the higher level, maybe it's seven or eight or something like that.

你说这是更高的水平，也许是七、八或类似的东西。

All right.

好的。

If you push it to 12, is that better?

如果你把它推到12，是不是更好？

I genuinely don't know.

我真的不知道。

Like some of these more complex AI systems, data collection, kind of seeing how you then respond individually.

就像一些更复杂的人工智能系统一样，数据收集，看看你如何单独做出反应。

As long as you can perform your own sort of like personal experiments, right?

只要你能进行你自己的个人实验，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

As much as you can, hold one variable constant, have some meaningful output that you can kind of track over time, see whether it works or not.

尽可能保持一个变量不变，得到一些有意义的输出，您可以随着时间的推移跟踪这些输出，看看它是否有效。

Can we then aggregate those data to kind of better understand this?

然后我们可以汇总这些数据以更好地理解这一点吗？

I'm excited to see where that goes.

我很高兴看到它的发展方向。

I will say that the best evidence we have just says, in reality, don't be deficient.

我要说的是，我们所掌握的最好证据表明，事实上，不要有缺陷。

If you can reach that threshold of not being deficient or insufficient, maybe that's enough.

如果你能达到不缺乏、不不足的门槛，也许就足够了。

I'm hopeful that that's the case, right?

我希望情况确实如此，对吗？

Because then more people will get to that point more easily.

因为这样更多的人会更容易达到这一点。

But there's a lot that we have to learn there.

但那里有很多我们需要学习的地方。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There was a time in the '90s and 2000s, where people would take stuff and do stuff.

在 20 世纪 90 年代和 2000 年代有一段时间，人们会拿东西做事。

I'm not talking about anabolic steroids, although that was happening, too.

我不是在谈论合成代谢类固醇，尽管这种情况也正在发生。

And the whole idea was find things that work, perform really well in one's job or in one sport, assuming you're not breaking any rules, right?

整个想法是找到有效的东西，在工作或一项运动中表现得非常好，假设你没有违反任何规则，对吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But not tell anyone you were doing it.

但不要告诉任何人你正在这样做。

And what changed, I think, were two things.

我认为，改变的是两件事。

One is there became a market value for telling people what one does in order to make money.

一是告诉人们为了赚钱而做什么的市场价值。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So people started doing that.

所以人们开始这样做。

And I do believe sharing is good, right?

我确实相信分享是件好事，对吗？

But also, there's this problem that goes with that, is that people who sit on the outside of kind of brain and sports performance or just life, just trying to maintain memory and do well in school and be a busy person and still get sleep and all of that, feel like, oh, we're being sold this one thing that's supposed to make all the difference.

但是，随之而来的还有一个问题，那就是，那些不关心大脑和运动表现或只是生活的人，只是想保持记忆力，在学校取得好成绩，做一个忙碌的人，但仍然要睡觉等等，感觉就像，哦，我们被卖了一件应该会带来改变的东西。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I think the thing that really came in and changed all of it are the GLPs.

我认为真正出现并改变这一切的是 GLP。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've never taken a GLP, but I'm just struck by like, Americans are now willing to inject themselves.

我从未参加过 GLP，但我只是对美国人现在愿意注射自己感到震惊。

So now it opens up this whole thing about peptides, which the major consumers of peptides are not the bro science guys, like the gym bros, it's women.

现在它揭示了有关肽的整个事情，肽的主要消费者不是像健身兄弟那样的科学人士，而是女性。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Look, I have female family members, right?

你看，我家里有女性成员吧？

And they'll tell me, and there's a long history of people doing and taking things and doing things for their cosmetic appearance and not necessarily sharing it with the world.

他们会告诉我，长期以来，人们为了自己的外表而做事、做事、做事，但不一定与世界分享。

So these are the performance-enhancing substances of a whole different kind, right?

那么这些是完全不同类型的性能增强物质，对吧？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so how is it that this peptide industry is so intriguing to so many people that, yeah, like jabbing yourself with something that is not FDA-approved?

那么，为什么这个肽行业如此吸引这么多人，是的，喜欢用未经 FDA 批准的东西来刺激自己呢？

Like, people are doing it like crazy, even people who are kind of cautious about what they'll do and put into their body.

就像，人们疯狂地这样做，即使是那些对自己要做的事情和放入身体中的东西持谨慎态度的人。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because of this bridge that the GLPs have made, it's so much easier now to just People aren't as needle phobic.

由于 GLP 搭建的这座桥梁，现在人们不再那么害怕针头变得容易多了。

So I think we're entering a time now where people are saying, "Okay, you know what?

所以我认为我们现在正在进入这样一个时代，人们会说：“好吧，你知道吗？

The government, the food pyramid, the whatever, the food quadrants, like, yeah, that's just like if you don't want to die.

政府，食物金字塔，无论什么，食物象限，就像，是的，就像你不想死一样。

But I want to feel great." And there's actually this potential that you and others are sort of offering, like you can learn things into your older age.

但我想要感觉很棒。”实际上，你和其他人都提供了这种潜力，就像你可以在老年时学习东西一样。

You can be lean and have great posture into your 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s.

到 60 多岁、70 多岁、80 多岁、90 多岁时，您仍然可以保持苗条身材并保持良好的体态。

We see examples of this.

我们看到了这样的例子。

So I think that there's this pull, we're getting kind of pulled forward towards this promise, and I don't think that promise is all about avoiding the bad stuff.

所以我认为存在着这种拉力，我们正在朝着这个承诺前进，而且我不认为这个承诺就是为了避免坏事。

And people will say, "Oh, yeah, well, my grandfather lived to be 102, and he was smoking every..." Great.

人们会说，“哦，是的，好吧，我祖父活了 102 岁，他每天都抽烟……”太棒了。

Like, awesome.

就像，太棒了。

But a lot of people don't have those kinds of genetics in their family.

但很多人的家族中并没有这些基因。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And genetics play a big role.

遗传学发挥着重要作用。

So I'm just kind of editorializing here.

所以我只是在这里进行社论。

I'd love your thoughts on how you sort of sit back and you look at the landscape of things.

我很想听听你对如何坐下来看待事物的看法的想法。

Eat right, exercise, get good sleep, socialize is awesome.

正确饮食、锻炼身体、良好睡眠、社交非常棒。

But just that is difficult-

但仅此而已就困难了——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for people.

为人们。

That puts people into a clutch state.

这让人们陷入了紧要关头的状态。

Just trying to do that while managing family and profession and cost of life, cost of living-

只是试图做到这一点，同时管理家庭和职业以及生活成本，生活成本-

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that's a lot.

就这么多了。

So I think people do want something that gives them more energy, gives them better sleep, picks up their mood.

所以我认为人们确实想要一些能给他们更多能量、让他们更好的睡眠、让他们心情好起来的东西。

And I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking about those things as long as it feeds back to better behaviors.

我认为思考这些事情并没有什么错，只要它能带来更好的行为。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Particularly when I think about this new part of the supplement industry.

特别是当我想到补充剂行业的这个新部分时。

And like you said, the peptides are just the next iteration of the pills and potions and things that people have been-

就像你说的，肽只是药丸和药剂以及人们曾经使用过的东西的下一代——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're longed to as supplements-

它们被渴望作为补充品——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

more than drugs because look, there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

不仅仅是毒品，因为看，没有办法把精灵放回瓶子里。

I don't care what the FDA does, and they can mark my words, people are going to find their way to get their peptides because they love them.

我不在乎 FDA 做了什么，他们可以记住我的话，人们会想方设法获得肽，因为他们喜欢它们。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And most people are not playing a drug-tested sport.

大多数人都没有参加经过药物测试的运动。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And there may be adverse events out there, and this isn't a plug for peptides per se, but where are all these adverse events that are not from botched injections or from really bad black market sources?

那里可能存在不良事件，这本身并不是肽的插头，但是所有这些不是来自拙劣注射或来自非常糟糕的黑市来源的不良事件在哪里？

Where are all the roid rages of peptides?

肽的所有类狂暴都在哪里？

I think you can see way more plastic surgery like, "Ugh.

我认为你可以看到更多的整形手术，比如“呃。

Whoa, that looks bad," kind of things.

哇，这看起来很糟糕”之类的事情。

And, okay, melanotan's kind of an issue because people can really mess themselves up-

好吧，黑色素是一个问题，因为人们真的会把自己搞砸——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

there, but where are all the adverse events?

那里有，但是所有的不良事件都在哪里呢？

Until people start dropping dead from BPC injections, people are going to get and they're going to take their BPC.

在人们开始因 BPC 注射而死亡之前，人们将会注射 BPC。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

I'll admit I'm more conservative.

我承认我比较保守。

When you're trying a new supplement or peptide, I'm going to include peptides into this, but, of course, it could be a pill or whatever, right?

当您尝试新的补充剂或肽时，我将在其中加入肽，但是，当然，它可能是药丸或其他什么，对吗？

Some peptides come as pills.

有些肽以药丸的形式出现。

I would want some reasonably good evidence of efficacy that this is going to work in humans like me.

我想要一些相当好的证据来证明这对像我这样的人有效。

That's probably not a bar that most of these things are going to hit anytime soon.

这可能不是大多数事情很快就会达到的门槛。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, people don't care.

不，人们不在乎。

I mean, people who have no interest in walking into a gym are contacting me like crazy.

我的意思是，那些对走进健身房不感兴趣的人疯狂地联系我。

These are adults who have kids they love, spouses they love.

这些成年人有他们爱的孩子，他们爱的配偶。

They are not medicine phobic, like traditional medicine phobic, and they're like, "Should I be taking low dose, should I be microdosing tirzepatide or retatrutide?" I'm like, "Retatrutide's not even released yet." They're like-

他们并不像传统医学那样恐惧药物，他们会想，“我应该服用低剂量的药物，我应该微剂量替泽帕肽还是瑞他鲁肽？”我想，“瑞他鲁肽还没有上市。”他们就像——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

"Where can I get it?" Like, are you kidding me?

“哪里可以拿到？”就像，你在开玩笑吗？

But it's incredible what's happened in the last few years.

但过去几年发生的事情令人难以置信。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So if you think about what you might think about if you're going to start to consider one of these.

因此，如果您考虑一下如果您要开始考虑其中之一，您可能会想到什么。

First of all, I would want to see evidence that it works.

首先，我想看到它有效的证据。

The majority of peptides don't have good quality evidence in humans except the GLP-1s-

除 GLP-1s 外，大多数肽在人体中没有良好的质量证据-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Correct

正确

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

...

...

right?

对吗？

They're on the market.

它们在市场上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the growth hormone secretagogues, but for reasons other than people are taking them.

还有生长激素促分泌剂，但出于其他原因而不是人们正在服用它们。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Sarcopenia.

肌肉减少症。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Other, and with most of those growth hormone secretagogues come with a risk of insulin resistance, diabetes, particularly at higher doses.

其他，大多数生长激素促分泌剂都存在胰岛素抵抗、糖尿病的风险，特别是在较高剂量时。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

They're not the super popular ones.

他们不是超级受欢迎的。

I think the super popular ones are, besides the GLPs and retatrutide is a GLP in other things, but are, I would say, microdosing of retatrutide and tirzepatide, one category for weight loss, fat loss.

我认为最流行的是，除了 GLP 之外，瑞他鲁肽在其他方面也是 GLP，但我想说的是，微剂量瑞他鲁肽和替泽帕肽，这是减肥、减脂的一类。

I would say BPC 157, people are taking it without even knowing what the desired effect is.

我想说 BPC 157，人们在服用它时甚至不知道想要的效果是什么。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Recovery is, again, really broad.

再次强调，复苏的范围非常广泛。

I think it's injury repair, that's the thesis.

我认为这是损伤修复，这就是论文。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No human evidence as far as no good human evidence.

就没有良好的人类证据而言，没有人类证据。

And then there are these other kind of dot, dot, dot ones, I would say, GHK copper for skin appearance.

然后还有其他类型的点、点、点，我想说的是，用于皮肤外观的 GHK 铜。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Those are the three biggies-

这就是三大巨头——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that seem, and the last one in particular with women.

看起来是这样，最后一个尤其是针对女性的。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So I would want evidence that in humans it does what I want it to do.

所以我想要证据证明它在人类身上做了我想要它做的事情。

Most of those, if not all of them, except for the GLP-1s, don't have that evidence or for the thing that you're trying to get, right?

除了 GLP-1 之外，大多数（如果不是全部）都没有该证据或您想要获得的东西，对吗？

But beyond that, a question that you have to ask, and I like this reframing, I heard it recently from Jeffrey Bland, which is that if you're going to consider injecting or taking something, the first thing you should want to know is, is this safe, right?

但除此之外，你必须问一个问题，我喜欢这种重新定义，我最近从杰弗里·布兰德那里听到，如果你打算考虑注射或服用某些东西，你应该想知道的第一件事是，这安全吗？

If you have good safety data, then trying it is low risk, right?

如果你有良好的安全数据，那么尝试它的风险就很低，对吧？

Even if it doesn't work, right, at least you know it's not dangerous.

即使它不起作用，对吧，至少你知道它没有危险。

But we don't even have that for most of these peptides.

但我们甚至没有大多数这些肽。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, we just have the absence of documented adverse effects.

不，我们只是没有记录到不良影响。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In the time course that they've been used.

在它们被使用的时间过程中。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because we don't know about long-term use.

因为我们不知道长期使用。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

And so everybody has their own risk tolerance.

因此每个人都有自己的风险承受能力。

Everybody is welcome to do whatever they want, of course.

当然，我们欢迎每个人做任何他们想做的事情。

But for me personally, first I would want documented evidence of safety, and then you can say, "Well, I'm willing to try it because it may or may not do this thing." But you should also have a specific problem that you're trying to solve, right?

但对我个人来说，首先我想要安全性的书面证据，然后你可以说，“好吧，我愿意尝试一下，因为它可能会也可能不会做这件事。”但您还应该有一个想要解决的具体问题，对吧？

Otherwise, why would you bother taking it?

不然的话，你为什么要费力去拿它呢？

But it's also the case for the vast majority of supplements that are out there and have been around for long periods of time is, first of all, we don't have good evidence of long-term safety at whatever dose that you're taking.

但对于绝大多数已经存在很长时间的补充剂来说，情况也是如此，首先，我们没有充分的证据证明无论您服用什么剂量都具有长期安全性。

And then second of all, we don't know whether it works.

其次，我们不知道它是否有效。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For some we do, like creatine-

对于某些我们会做的，比如肌酸-

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Of course

当然

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

omega-3s, magnesium.

omega-3、镁。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

And creatine is actually the best.

肌酸实际上是最好的。

So, like omega-3s, we know that they're a critical nutrient Creatine I think is the best example because we know it's very safe.

因此，就像 omega-3 一样，我们知道它们是一种重要的营养素，我认为肌酸是最好的例子，因为我们知道它非常安全。

So even though there's this idea of creatine responders and non-responders, maybe it's going to be useful to improve or support cognition for some people and not others, may improve physical performance for some people but not others.

因此，即使存在肌酸反应者和无反应者的想法，也许它对改善或支持某些人而不是其他人的认知有用，可能会改善某些人的身体表现，但不会改善其他人的身体表现。

At least we know that you can give high doses of creatine to frail older individuals with essentially no side effects.

至少我们知道，您可以给体弱的老年人服用高剂量的肌酸，并且基本上没有副作用。

We know it's very safe.

我们知道这非常安全。

So then you can try it and see if it benefits you.

那么你可以尝试一下，看看它是否对你有好处。

So creatine is a great example, but there aren't that many others that kind of fit into that category.

肌酸是一个很好的例子，但没有多少其他物质适合该类别。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting times.

有趣的时刻。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Again, I go back to it, I love the idea of blood testing, tailoring supplementation to the needs of the individual, retesting so people can be really objective about whether their levels are moving in the right or wrong direction.

再次，我回到它，我喜欢血液测试的想法，根据个人的需求定制补充剂，重新测试，这样人们就可以真正客观地判断他们的水平是否朝着正确或错误的方向发展。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Subjective experience.

主观体验。

The sleep supplementation thing is kind of interesting because either people feel it improves their sleep or it doesn't.

睡眠补充这件事很有趣，因为人们要么觉得它可以改善睡眠，要么没有。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Even if it's a placebo effect, which in some cases it could be.

即使这是一种安慰剂效应，在某些情况下也可能是这样。

With sleep tracking, people can see are they getting more REM, are they getting more slow-wave sleep?

通过睡眠追踪，人们可以看到他们是否获得了更多的快速眼动睡眠，他们是否获得了更多的慢波睡眠？

Such a fascinating area.

如此迷人的地区。

As you and I both know, there's no plasticity pill.

正如你我都知道的那样，没有可塑性药丸。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But arousal, alertness, focus seems to be a prerequisite of plasticity.

但唤醒、警觉、专注似乎是可塑性的先决条件。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which is why things like caffeine and stimulants and L-tyrosine and all these things, that you can find some evidence for them improving plasticity, but it's very likely to be indirect, right?

这就是为什么咖啡因、兴奋剂、L-酪氨酸和所有这些东西，你可以找到一些证据证明它们可以改善可塑性，但很可能是间接的，对吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's not that they make you learn.

并不是他们让你学习。

They set the stage for learning, and it seems to always get back to arousal.

他们为学习奠定了基础，而且似乎总是会回到唤醒状态。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So this is what I want to get back to exercise-

这就是我想要恢复锻炼的目的——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

as a tool for opening the window for plasticity.

作为打开可塑性之窗的工具。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could it be that it's simply a matter of moving your body to get enough adrenaline in your body, norepinephrine in the brain, and maybe some dopamine as well, so that the stage is set for plasticity, and it doesn't matter whether you jump rope, do jumping jacks, sprint, or do deadlifts.

难道这只是简单地移动你的身体，让你的身体获得足够的肾上腺素，大脑中的去甲肾上腺素，也许还有一些多巴胺，这样就为可塑性奠定了基础，无论你是跳绳、开合跳、短跑还是硬拉，都没有关系。

It's all about getting your brain into an altered, admittedly endogenous chemical altered state of just more arousal.

这一切都是为了让你的大脑进入一种改变的、公认的内源性化学改变的状态，从而带来更多的兴奋。

And then boom, you can go learn.

然后繁荣，你可以去学习。

Could it just be that?

难道就只是这样吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Before we get into the exercise, there's an interesting part with the supplements that increase arousal, so the stimulants in particular.

在我们开始锻炼之前，有一个有趣的部分是关于增加兴奋的补充剂，特别是兴奋剂。

And I am a big proponent of thinking about or tracking how somebody feels.

我非常支持思考或追踪某人的感受。

I think that how you feel is this kind of ultimate integration of all these inputs and outputs that the brain is kind of bringing together.

我认为你的感受是大脑将所有这些输入和输出最终整合在一起。

And we know that how you feel, so how an athlete feels is a much better predictor of their performance than their HRV or any of their blood tests or any of that stuff.

我们知道你的感觉如何，因此运动员的感觉比 HRV 或任何血液测试或任何其他东西更能预测他​​们的表现。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What are you asking them?

你问他们什么？

Like, "How good do you feel today?"

比如，“你今天感觉怎么样？”

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

On one to 10.

从一到十。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Some version of that.

某个版本。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

10, I feel like I can conquer the world.

10、我觉得我可以征服世界。

One, I feel like-

一、我感觉——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Exactly.

正是如此。

And you can boil it down, or you can spread it out to many more questions.

你可以将其归结为一个问题，也可以将其展开为更多问题。

So there's a question there called the rest cue, which is all about how recovered you feel, how motivated you feel to train or perform, that kind of stuff.

所以有一个问题叫做休息提示，它是关于你感觉如何恢复，你感觉训练或表演的动力如何，诸如此类的东西。

But essentially it boils down to how good you feel.

但本质上，这取决于你的感觉有多好。

If you feel good, you're more likely to perform well, and that works better than the vast majority of data, biological, physiological data you can collect.

如果你感觉良好，你就更有可能表现良好，这比你可以收集的绝大多数数据、生物、生理数据更有效。

There are papers that come out on this every year that essentially show the same thing.

每年都会有一些关于这个问题的论文本质上表明了同样的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's kind of cool.

这有点酷。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because mindset, as my colleague Allie Crumb has focused on so much, you can be honest with yourself and you can lie to yourself and tell yourself, like, okay, you got a lousy sleep score, but I feel good.

因为心态，正如我的同事艾莉·克拉姆（Allie Crumb）所关注的那样，你可以对自己诚实，你可以对自己撒谎，告诉自己，就像，好吧，你的睡眠成绩很糟糕，但我感觉很好。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or maybe sleep scores are like they mean something, but today you know?

或者也许睡眠分数就像它们意味着什么，但今天你知道吗？

Right?

正确的？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it can work, right?

它可以工作，对吧？

In terms of performance.

在性能方面。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

And so absolutely right.

所以绝对正确。

Then that gets into the nocebo effect of how we think about either our sleep data or these other things, right?

那么这就涉及到我们如何看待睡眠数据或其他事情的反安慰剂效应，对吗？

That can negatively impact our performance, and we have good studies that show that as well.

这会对我们的表现产生负面影响，我们有很好的研究也表明了这一点。

So I think that tracking how you feel is really important.

所以我认为追踪你的感受非常重要。

But when it comes to stimulants in particular, they seem to dissociate how we feel versus how we perform, right?

但特别是当涉及兴奋剂时，它们似乎将我们的感受与我们的表现分开，对吗？

So there are studies that show that giving people caffeine makes them feel like they're performing better, but they're actually performing worse on certain cognitive tasks.

因此，有研究表明，给人们咖啡因会让他们感觉自己表现更好，但实际上他们在某些认知任务上表现更差。

So there's been studies done with the N-back task.

因此，人们对 N-back 任务进行了研究。

So very complex working memory task, particularly as you get to N3, you're trying to remember, did I see this letter three letters ago, right?

这是非常复杂的工作记忆任务，特别是当你进入 N3 时，你会试图记住，我在三个字母前见过这封信吗？

In those kinds of complex cognitive tasks, people who take caffeine feel like they're performing better, but they're actually performing worse.

在这类复杂的认知任务中，服用咖啡因的人感觉自己表现更好，但实际上表现更差。

They're making more errors or they're kind of they're reacting too quickly.

他们犯了更多错误，或者他们反应太快了。

They're not really thinking about it.

他们并没有真正考虑这个问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

And there's similar data from other stimulants, too.

其他兴奋剂也有类似的数据。

So there was a paper that came out in "Science" a couple of years ago giving people methylphenidate or some of the other ADHD medications in people who don't have ADHD.

几年前，《科学》杂志上发表了一篇论文，给没有多动症的人服用哌醋甲酯或其他一些多动症药物。

These stimulant medications, again, show this dissociation between-- So they feel great.

这些兴奋剂药物再次显示出这种分离——所以它们感觉很棒。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like the inverse of the cannabis thing, where people think they've got all these great ideas.

这就像大麻的反面，人们认为他们有所有这些伟大的想法。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Feel like more creative.

感觉更有创意。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then the next day even they are like, "Oh my goodness, this is dreadful."

第二天，他们也会说：“天啊，这太可怕了。”

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

And that's again, been formalized in studies where you can do these tests where then other people objectively see how creative were you.

这又在研究中得到了正式化，你可以进行这些测试，然后其他人客观地看到你的创造力。

People taking cannabis felt like they were more creative, but actually they weren't.

服用大麻的人感觉自己更有创造力，但实际上并非如此。

And so the reason why I say this is that when we're talking about supplements and all these other things, we're like, "Well, I feel much better, therefore it must be doing something good." We know that with many of these supplements, you can create this dissociation between how you feel and how you perform.

所以我这么说的原因是，当我们谈论补充剂和所有其他东西时，我们会说，“嗯，我感觉好多了，因此它一定是在做一些好事。”我们知道，通过许多此类补充剂，您可以在您的感受和表现之间建立这种分离。

Whereas some of these endogenous things don't have that effect.

然而，其中一些内源性因素却没有这种效果。

So that's why that kind of endogenous increase in arousal using things like exercise is a much more reliable way to improve performance because you don't kind of get this dissociation between the two.

这就是为什么使用运动等方式来提高性唤起是一种更可靠的提高表现的方法，因为你不会发现两者之间存在这种分离。

So with exercise in particular, we know very well that Some period of exercise, it can be resistance training, aerobic exercise, very brief sprints, increase arousal, improve cognitive function across multiple domains, improve learning, and retrieval.

所以特别是运动，我们很清楚，一段时间的运动，可以是阻力训练、有氧运动、非常短暂的冲刺，可以增加觉醒，提高跨多个领域的认知功能，提高学习和检索能力。

So you're definitely augmenting some of these processes of neuroplasticity.

所以你肯定会增强其中一些神经可塑性过程。

Some of that's going to be related to the catecholamines and other things that get released as arousal increases.

其中一些与儿茶酚胺和其他随着兴奋增加而释放的物质有关。

But we also know that different types of exercise have different effects on different parts of the brain.

但我们也知道，不同类型的运动对大脑不同部位有不同的影响。

So yes, I think some of just the general process of moving your body and exerting effort definitely increases arousal, definitely improves cognitive function, improves learning, as long as it's not truly exhaustive exercise.

所以，是的，我认为一些移动身体和努力的一般过程肯定会增加觉醒，肯定会改善认知功能，提高学习能力，只要它不是真正的力竭运动。

Like anybody who's done some terrible CrossFit WOD or, I used to be a rower.

就像任何做过一些糟糕的 CrossFit WOD 的人一样，或者，我曾经是一名赛艇运动员。

We used to do a 2K test on the rowing machine.

我们曾经在划船机上做过2K测试。

You do a 2K test on a rowing machine, your brain does not work afterwards.

你在划船机上做2K测试，之后你的大脑就不工作了。

It's like a six-minute flat-out VO2 max kind of level of exertion.

这就像六分钟的最大摄氧量的运动水平。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, thanks.

是的，谢谢。

I'm going to interrupt briefly.

我要简短地打断一下。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for pointing that out because I think that people assume they have an infinite amount of energy and there's crossover, and I certainly have done extra sets to failure in a great morning workout, and then in the afternoon I'm dragging.

谢谢你指出这一点，因为我认为人们认为他们有无限的能量并且存在交叉，而且我当然在一次很棒的早晨锻炼中做了额外的组数直到力竭，然后在下午我就拖沓了。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If I hold back just a little bit in terms of volume-

如果我在音量方面稍微保留一点——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I find I get a real boost out of training.

我发现我从训练中得到了真正的提升。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I do low volume, high intensity.

但我做的是低量、高强度的训练。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Usually two sets per exercise, two or three-

通常每个练习做两组，两组或三组

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

exercises per muscle, like quadriceps being one muscle or something like that.

每块肌肉的锻炼，比如股四头肌是一块肌肉或类似的东西。

If I do three, it's a small addition.

如果我做三个，这只是一个小小的补充。

The rest of the day I'm kind of dragging.

这一天剩下的时间我有点拖沓。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So leaving something in the tank-

所以在水箱里留下一些东西-

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

does seem worthwhile.

看起来确实值得。

Not during the sets, but leaving something in the tank in terms of volume really seems to help.

不是在训练过程中，但在水箱里留一些体积的东西似乎确实有帮助。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Especially if you want to perform hard cognitive work directly afterwards.

特别是如果您想在事后立即进行艰苦的认知工作。

Sometimes if you're trying to really push-

有时候，如果你真的想推动——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure

当然可以

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

...

...

performance or adaptation, it's worth digging into that hole.

性能或适应，值得深挖这个洞。

But it really just depends on what you want to be able to do directly afterwards.

但这实际上只取决于您希望之后能够直接做什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think student athletes, especially in D1 schools-

我认为学生运动员，尤其是 D1 学校的学生运动员——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

they really come to appreciate this.

他们真的开始欣赏这一点。

I've had a few of them in my courses over the years, and they really understand when they're being pushed very hard in their sport and they know that they have to sit in the front of the classroom, sit upright, take extra measures to make sure they're not dozing off-

多年来我在我的课程中遇到了一些这样的人，他们真的理解当他们在运动中受到很大的压力时，他们知道他们必须坐在教室的前面，坐直，采取额外的措施以确保他们不会打瞌睡-

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

attention drifting, especially in the age of phones and iPads and things like that.

注意力转移，尤其是在手机和 iPad 之类的时代。

It's very, very difficult.

这是非常非常困难的。

Yeah, thank you for mentioning that because they're just an extreme case of the rest of us.

是的，谢谢你提到这一点，因为他们只是我们其他人的一个极端例子。

We're told and we're all very busy, like, "Oh, you need to exercise, it'll help your brain." And people are like, "Why exercise?

我们被告知，我们都很忙，比如，“哦，你需要锻炼，它会帮助你的大脑。”人们会问，“为什么要锻炼？

I'm exhausted.

我累坏了。

That's not helping my brain."

这对我的大脑没有帮助。”

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Let's get practical here.

让我们在这里实践一下。

It's got to be really subjective and depend day to day.

它必须是非常主观的并且取决于日常情况。

Is there any way to kind of formalize that?

有什么办法可以将其形式化吗？

Should you train, let's say resistance training or running, should you cap it at an hour?

你是否应该进行训练，比如说阻力训练或跑步，你是否应该将其限制在一个小时内？

Should you pull back on the intensity if you have harder cognitive work to do in the afternoon?

如果你下午有更困难的认知工作要做，你应该降低强度吗？

We all want the maximum effective exercise-

我们都想要最大程度有效的锻炼——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but we don't want it to undercut our efforts.

但我们不希望它削弱我们的努力。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

I think that a lot of it's going to be based on what your current capacity is, as with everything.

我认为，很多事情都将取决于你当前的能力，就像所有事情一样。

So if you've got some learning to do, you've got an exam, you want to do some hard cognitive work at whatever it is, writing a presentation, analyzing data, reading papers, writing a book, then doing some kind of workout that's probably below your kind of typical or below what you would do when you're really sort of pushing the envelope.

因此，如果你有一些学习要做，你有一个考试，你想做一些艰苦的认知工作，无论是什么，写一个演示文稿，分析数据，阅读论文，写一本书，然后做一些可能低于你的典型锻炼或低于你真正挑战极限时会做的锻炼。

I think that when you look at meta-analyses of exercise and then cognitive function immediately afterwards, the protocol that has the best evidence for it is a 20 to 30 minute jog.

我认为，当你查看运动的荟萃分析以及随后立即查看的认知功能时，最有证据证明这一点的方案是 20 到 30 分钟的慢跑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So that's the kind of level of activity that really seems to sort of support all those general processes of plasticity and learning.

因此，这种活动水平似乎确实支持所有可塑性和学习的一般过程。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What do you think is going on?

你认为发生了什么事？

Because it can't be that much arousal.

因为不可能有那么大的兴奋度。

I mean, the amount of catecholamines released from, again, catecholamines, folks, being the adrenaline, norepinephrine, and dopamine generally increase levels of arousal, alertness, propensity to move.

我的意思是，儿茶酚胺释放的儿茶酚胺量，即肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素和多巴胺，通常会增加兴奋、警觉性和运动倾向的水平。

That's that, I feel better.

就是这样，我感觉好多了。

People often think about the runner's high and endorphins.

人们经常想到跑步者的快感和内啡肽。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Hmm.

唔。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The endorphins come from pretty long, intense duration effort.

内啡肽来自相当长的、高强度的持续努力。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're more of a you're floating kind of like, I think the catecholamines are really the cocktail of like, "All right, I got a great workout in this morning, showered, got dressed, I'm off to work.

它们更像是一种你漂浮的感觉，我认为儿茶酚胺实际上是一种鸡尾酒，“好吧，我今天早上锻炼得很好，洗澡，穿好衣服，我要去上班了。

Let's go."

我们走吧。”

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So 20 to 30 minute jog, I don't expect you'd get that much catecholamine release.

因此，慢跑 20 到 30 分钟，我不认为你会释放那么多儿茶酚胺。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

You'll definitely get some.

你一定会得到一些。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Some.

有一些。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

And cortisol too.

还有皮质醇。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Which obviously increases alertness and arousal and can, in the short term, make you feel good.

这显然会提高警觉性和兴奋度，并且可以在短期内让您感觉良好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a good thing, yeah.

这是一件好事，是的。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

You see similar effects of short resistance training workouts.

您会看到短期阻力训练的类似效果。

I think of it, it's probably a little bit of an area under the curve thing because you see some similar effects of you go out and you do six second really hard sprints, max effort sprints.

我想，这可能是曲线下的一个区域，因为你会看到一些类似的效果，你出去做六秒的真正艰苦的冲刺，最大努力冲刺。

You do that a few times with a long break in between.

你可以这样做几次，中间有很长的休息时间。

That seems to have a similar effect, but you're only working for very short periods-

这似乎有类似的效果，但你只工作很短的时间-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

...

...

with very long rest periods.

有很长的休息时间。

So it's something in that sphere, and I think that's probably just it.

所以这是那个领域的事情，我想这可能就是这样。

It's just enough to just kind of boost catecholamines a little bit, a little bit of cortisol.

这足以增加一点点儿茶酚胺和一点点皮质醇。

That's enough to kind of move you up the arousal curve to the point where you're then able to focus and engage a little bit better.

这足以让你沿着唤醒曲线上升到你能够更好地集中注意力和参与的程度。

And I think, yeah, you don't need a huge dump of that in order to achieve that increase in arousal, particularly as it pertains to learning and then cognitive performance in formal cognitive tests, which is where this is usually done.

我认为，是的，你不需要大量的转储来实现唤醒的增加，特别是因为它涉及学习，然后是正式认知测试中的认知表现，这通常是这样做的。

If you're then thinking about the type of exercise that changes cognitive function or brain structure long term Effort and intensity do seem to matter a lot more.

如果您正在考虑长期改变认知功能或大脑结构的运动类型，那么努力和强度似乎确实更重要。

But those studies have looked less at how do they feel directly afterwards.

但这些研究较少关注他们事后的直接感受。

Now you're thinking about what's the kind of stimulus that drives change over time, and then intensity matters a lot as well.

现在你正在考虑什么样的刺激会随着时间的推移推动变化，那么强度也很重要。

So, the best example is with aerobic exercise on the kind of zone two up to kind of zone four, five sprint spectrum.

因此，最好的例子是有氧运动从二区到四、五区的冲刺谱。

So most people who listen to your show are probably familiar with a study where in older adults, they had them do brisk walking three times a week, 40 minutes.

大多数听你的节目的人可能都熟悉一项研究，其中老年人每周快走 3 次，每次 40 分钟。

And when you read the study and the heart rate levels they were trying to attain, it was basically zone two work.

当你阅读研究和他们试图达到的心率水平时，你会发现这基本上是第二区的工作。

Forty minutes brisk walking three times a week for a year.

一年内每周三次四十分钟快走。

And they saw significant increases in the volume of the hippocampus, increases in VO2 max fitness, increases in circulating BDNF levels, though circulating BDNF doesn't actually get into the brain, but it's kind of telling you something about probably BDNF that's being produced in the brain, and improvements in memory with all of that.

他们发现海马体体积显着增加，最大摄氧量增加，循环 BDNF 水平增加，虽然循环 BDNF 实际上不会进入大脑，但它可以告诉你一些关于大脑中可能产生的 BDNF 的信息，以及记忆力的改善。

However, there's a much more recent study that took, again, older adults and randomized them across three different groups.

然而，最近有一项研究再次将老年人随机分为三个不同的组。

One was like a low intensity group.

一个就像一个低强度组。

Another group basically did kind of zone two type work on a treadmill three times a week, very similar to that previous study that I mentioned.

另一组基本上每周在跑步机上进行三次第二区类型的工作，与我之前提到的研究非常相似。

And the third group did a high intensity interval training intervention, which was the Norwegian four-by-four protocol.

第三组进行高强度间歇训练干预，即挪威的四乘四方案。

So four minutes, 85% to 95% of maximum heart rate.

所以四分钟，最大心率的 85% 到 95%。

They had a three-minute rest in their protocol.

他们按照协议休息了三分钟。

They did that four times over.

他们这样做了四次。

That's really hard.

这真的很难。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Anybody who's done the Norwegian four-by-four, if you then say, "Well, hey, do that three times a week for six months." Like, that's-

任何做过挪威四乘四的人，如果你说，“好吧，嘿，每周做三次，持续六个月。”就像，那就是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's three times a week

也就是一周3次

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

...

...

three times a week for six months.

每周三次，持续六个月。

That's pretty intense.

那是相当激烈的。

But what they showed was that that high intensity interval training group, they improved their fitness just as well as the zone two group, interestingly.

但有趣的是，他们所展示的是，在高强度间歇训练组中，他们的健康水平与第二区组一样得到了改善。

But they had much better improvements in hippocampal function and maintenance of hippocampal structure on an MRI scan.

但在 MRI 扫描中，他们的海马功能和海马结构的维护有了更好的改善。

And they maintained that benefit for five years after the six-month intervention.

在六个月的干预后，他们将这种益处维持了五年。

So they worked really hard for six months, but that benefit was maintained for a really long period of time.

所以他们非常努力地工作了六个月，但这种好处却维持了很长一段时间。

And in several analyses within that study, they basically show that the harder people worked, and the more cortisol they released, the better the benefit.

在该研究的几项分析中，他们基本上表明，人们工作越努力，释放的皮质醇越多，效果就越好。

And so this is important because nowadays there's several people out there saying, "Oh, don't do high intensity exercise.

所以这很重要，因为现在有几个人说：“哦，不要做高强度运动。

It releases cortisol.

它释放皮质醇。

That's stressful.

这很有压力。

Your body can't handle it." Right?

你的身体承受不了。”正确的？

This study directly shows that working really hard, releasing a lot of cortisol in high intensity interval training actually improves hippocampal structure and function over time.

这项研究直接表明，努力工作、在高强度间歇训练中释放大量皮质醇实际上会随着时间的推移改善海马结构和功能。

So yes, I imagine after they did their workouts, their brain wasn't maybe working at its best, because that's a hard workout.

所以，是的，我想在他们完成锻炼后，他们的大脑可能没有处于最佳状态，因为这是一项艰苦的锻炼。

But over time, this was this really strong stimulus that then resulted in significant improvements.

但随着时间的推移，这种真正强烈的刺激最终带来了显着的改善。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Forgive me if you said it and I missed it.

如果你说了而我错过了，请原谅我。

What was the form of exercise?

锻炼的形式是什么？

Was it rowing or biking or running?

是划船、骑自行车还是跑步？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

It was on a treadmill.

那是在跑步机上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Treadmill.

跑步机。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really interesting.

真的很有趣。

And you said at about 85% of max heart rate?

你说的是最大心率的 85% 左右？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

So that's a typical Norwegian four-by-four protocol.

这是典型的挪威四乘四协议。

But I don't think that's the protocol you have to do.

但我不认为这是你必须遵守的协议。

I think it's just this process of high intensity exercise that it releases a whole bunch of myokines and lactate in particular.

我认为正是这种高强度运动的过程会释放大量的肌因子，尤其是乳酸。

We know that lactate very easily gets into the brain, stimulates BDNF production as kind of part of that support of neuroplasticity or augmenting recent neuroplastic processes.

我们知道，乳酸很容易进入大脑，刺激 BDNF 的产生，作为支持神经可塑性或增强近期神经可塑性过程的一部分。

I think there's something about just that high intensity work that drives some of those factors that then support structure and function.

我认为高强度的工作会推动其中一些因素，从而支持结构和功能。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health.

这是一个不幸的现实，但自来水通常含有对我们的健康产生负面影响的污染物。

In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap water.

事实上，环境工作组 2020 年的一项研究估计，超过 2 亿美国人通过饮用自来水接触到 PFAS 化学物质（也称为永久化学物质）。

These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.

这些永久性化学物质与严重的健康问题有关，例如激素紊乱、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题。

The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer.

环境工作组还表明，超过 1.22 亿美国人饮用的自来水含有大量已知致癌化学物质。

It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have Rorra as a sponsor of this podcast.

出于所有这些原因，我很高兴 Rorra 作为这个播客的赞助商。

I've been using the Rorra countertop system for almost a year now.

我使用 Rorra 台面系统已经快一年了。

Rorra's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium.

Rorra 的过滤技术可去除有害物质，包括内分泌干扰物和消毒副产物，同时保留镁和钙等有益矿物质。

It requires no installation or plumbing.

它不需要安装或管道。

It's built from medical grade stainless steel, and its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop.

它由医用级不锈钢制成，其时尚的设计非常适合您的台面。

In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen.

事实上，我认为它对我的厨房来说是一个受欢迎的补充。

It looks great, and the water is delicious.

看起来很棒，水也很美味。

If you'd like to try Rorra, you can go to rorra.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount.

如果您想尝试 Rorra，可以访问 rorra.com/huberman 并获得独家折扣。

Again, that's rorra, R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman.

再说一次，那是 rorra，R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman。

Two things.

有两件事。

Super interesting comparison between these studies.

这些研究之间的比较非常有趣。

And as somebody who incorporates one day a week of four-by-four type-

作为每周有一天进行四乘四类型的人——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Uh-huh

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

exercise and one day of longer, slower cardio, maybe I should try maybe doing a bit more of the high intensity stuff.

运动和一天更长、更慢的有氧运动，也许我应该尝试做更多一些高强度的事情。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Well, I think if you want it to be sustainable for long periods of time-

好吧，我想如果你希望它能够长期持续——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

...

...

like I would typically say one day of high intensity work is fine.

就像我通常会说的那样，一天的高强度工作就很好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Right?

对吗？

Because you probably want to be doing some resistance training.

因为您可能想做一些阻力训练。

You probably-

你可能——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm doing that three days a week.

我每周这样做三天。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I do one long, slow, for me, jog of about 60 minutes.

我会进行一次大约 60 分钟的长距离慢跑。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

45 to 60 minutes, and then one kind of moderate-

45到60分钟，然后是一种中等的——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

kind of maybe more like zone three, four.

有点可能更像是三区、四区。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So thank you for putting in a strong word for cortisol not always being the bad guy.

因此，感谢您强烈谴责皮质醇并不总是坏人。

People are so afraid of cortisol.

人们非常害怕皮质醇。

You want your morning cortisol high.

您希望早上的皮质醇水平较高。

It's going to make you sleep better at night, more energy during the day.

它会让你晚上睡得更好，白天更有活力。

It was interesting to me to dive into the literature on cortisol and find that a moderate intensity Resistance training session or cardio session, probably a little bit easier than the four by four, will triple one's baseline levels of cortisol and like or quadruple it.

对我来说，深入研究有关皮质醇的文献并发现中等强度的抗阻训练或有氧运动（可能比四乘四容易一点）将使皮质醇的基线水平增加三倍或四倍，这对我来说很有趣。

It's transient, but nobody's freaking out about these workouts, but they're afraid to get in a cold shower, which doesn't have nearly the same impact on cortisol or...

这是短暂的，但没有人对这些锻炼感到害怕，但他们害怕洗冷水澡，这对皮质醇或……没有几乎相同的影响。

It's kind of wild how afraid of cortisol people are.

人们对皮质醇的恐惧程度有点疯狂。

People think they're going to get Cushing syndrome.

人们认为他们会患上库欣综合症。

I don't know what the psyop on cortisol was all about, but you're going to get moon face, you won't be able to lose abdominal fat.

我不知道关于皮质醇的心理治疗是怎么回事，但你会变成圆脸，你将无法减掉腹部脂肪。

I mean, there is a real condition, which is, you and I know as Cushing syndrome, where cortisol is pathologically elevated.

我的意思是，有一种真实的情况，就是你我都知道的库欣综合征，即皮质醇病理性升高。

But come on, folks, cortisol goes up, cortisol goes down.

但是来吧，伙计们，皮质醇会上升，皮质醇会下降。

You have that but 20, 30 fold from the morning until night in a healthy individual.

对于一个健康的人来说，从早到晚的时间只有 20 到 30 倍。

So what do you think it is that people get afraid of cortisol, afraid of some stress?

那么你认为人们害怕皮质醇、害怕某些压力的原因是什么？

I mean, like your hippocampus, obviously, in this case, their hippocampus got better.

我的意思是，就像你的海马体一样，显然，在这种情况下，他们的海马体变得更好了。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's not dissolving into a puddle of its own tears.

它不会溶解成自己的泪水。

What is this?

这是什么？

What did our predecessors do wrong?

我们的前辈做错了什么？

Let's blame it on the parents, because we weren't doing science communication then.

让我们把这归咎于父母，因为我们当时没有进行科学传播。

What in the world was the incentive for demonizing molecules?

妖魔化分子的动机到底是什么？

It's so crazy.

太疯狂了。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So even though his frameworks are still potentially very helpful, some of it we can blame on Hans Selye and his general adaptation response.

因此，尽管他的框架仍然可能非常有用，但其中一些我们可以归咎于 Hans Selye 和他的总体适应反应。

Like the original idea that if you were chronically stressed, it would lead to true exhaustion of all your physiological systems.

就像最初的想法一样，如果你长期承受压力，就会导致你所有的生理系统真正疲惫不堪。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Because that was the final phase of his general adaptation response.

因为那是他总体适应反应的最后阶段。

People have conflated acute stresses versus chronic stresses, and yes, we know chronic stress, be they psychological, physical, increase allostatic load, increase metabolic disease, inflammation, blood sugar dysregulation, insulin resistance, significantly associated with heart disease, dementia, all these kinds of things, right?

人们将急性压力与慢性压力混为一谈，是的，我们知道慢性压力，无论是心理上的、身体上的、增加稳态负荷、增加代谢疾病、炎症、血糖失调、胰岛素抵抗，与心脏病、痴呆等所有这些疾病显着相关，对吗？

So we know that these chronic stresses can be really detrimental to our health.

所以我们知道这些慢性压力确实对我们的健康有害。

But we've kind of conflated that any stress is bad because chronic stress is bad.

但我们有点混为一谈，任何压力都是不好的，因为长期压力是不好的。

But the way that I think about it, or I try and talk about it, is that actually the stress response, and this is as kind of Selye originally described it, is stress drives adaptation.

但我思考这个问题的方式，或者我尝试谈论它的方式，实际上是压力反应，正如塞利最初描述的那样，是压力驱动适应。

He called it general adaptation syndrome or the general adaptation response because what stress is, is your body acknowledging that you need to respond to some external stimulus, right?

他将其称为一般适应综合症或一般适应反应，因为压力是什么，你的身体是否承认你需要对某些外部刺激做出反应，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

And so stress diverts resources so that you can then adapt to that stimulus, be they physical, cognitive, neurological, right?

因此，压力会转移资源，以便你能够适应这种刺激，无论是身体上的、认知上的还是神经上的，对吗？

A stressor diverts glucose to the immune system, right, in an infection so that it functions better.

在感染中，压力源会将葡萄糖转移到免疫系统，以便其更好地发挥作用。

You can eliminate the infection.

您可以消除感染。

And so, yeah, if you took somebody and you measured their cortisol levels after a workout, it actually looks very similar to how it would look if you'd just broken your arm or if you were really sick, right?

所以，是的，如果你在锻炼后测量某人的皮质醇水平，它实际上看起来与你刚刚摔断手臂或真的病了时的情况非常相似，对吗？

But this is the body adapting to a stimulus.

但这是身体对刺激的适应。

And everything we've talked about here, physical training, driving neuroplasticity, that requires adaptation.

我们在这里讨论的一切，体能训练，驱动神经可塑性，都需要适应。

And so some of that core stress response is involved in that.

因此，一些核心压力反应与此有关。

The release of catecholamines you talked about in the brain, right?

你所说的大脑中儿茶酚胺的释放，对吗？

Those are stress related molecules that are driving adaptation so that your body can deal with the stressor better in the future.

这些是与压力相关的分子，可以推动适应，以便您的身体将来能够更好地应对压力源。

And we also know, actually, that there's some evidence for the cross stressor adaptation, particularly with exercise, right?

事实上，我们还知道，有一些证据表明交叉压力源适应，特别是通过锻炼，对吗？

So if you exercise regularly, you are better at dealing with other stresses, like psychological stresses.

因此，如果您定期锻炼，您就能更好地应对其他压力，例如心理压力。

You're more robust to stressors.

您对压力源的抵抗力更强。

Your mood or your cognitive function doesn't dip as much when you're then psychologically stressed.

当您承受心理压力时，您的情绪或认知功能不会下降那么多。

So stress is actually really important because it's the fundamental driver of adaptation.

所以压力实际上非常重要，因为它是适应的根本驱动力。

But because we know that chronic stress is bad if you never get a chance, and that's because you never get a chance to adapt.

但因为我们知道，如果你没有机会适应，长期压力是不好的，那是因为你永远没有机会适应。

You never get a chance to down regulate, you never get a chance to respond because it's just continuous.

你永远没有机会下调，你永远没有机会做出反应，因为它只是连续的。

But intermittent exposure to these stressors is really important.

但间歇性接触这些压力源确实很重要。

And Selye also talked about the idea of hypostress, right?

Selye 也谈到了低压力的想法，对吗？

Not having enough stress because then you don't adapt, you don't build function and response.

没有足够的压力，因为这样你就无法适应，就无法建立功能和反应。

So we just need to think about them very differently because those acute stresses are incredibly important for driving adaptation.

因此，我们只需要以非常不同的方式思考它们，因为这些急性压力对于推动适应非常重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The way I think of it is pick your stressor.

我的想法是选择你的压力源。

It could either be exercise or it can be psychological stress.

可能是锻炼，也可能是心理压力。

If you take it in the form of exercise, you probably have less in the form of psychological stress.

如果你以锻炼的形式进行锻炼，你的心理压力可能就会减少。

It's obviously not completely true at a one for one.

一对一的情况显然不完全正确。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I think, as you pointed out, we and all organisms thrive on some degree of stress.

但我认为，正如您所指出的，我们和所有生物体都在一定程度的压力下茁壮成长。

I think if people are getting enough good sleep at night.

我认为如果人们晚上睡眠充足的话。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah, sleep is a critical part of it.

是的，睡眠是其中很重要的一部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't want to say there's no limit to the amount of stress they can absorb, but when it starts to erode your sleep, that's perhaps when things need to be adjusted.

我并不是说它们能够承受的压力是无限的，但当它开始侵蚀你的睡眠时，也许就是需要调整的时候了。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Resistance training.

阻力训练。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is there a particular protocol for resistance training that opens the opportunity for plasticity better than others that is supported in the literature?

是否有一个特定的阻力训练方案比文献中支持的其他方案能够更好地为可塑性提供机会？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Again, two different windows, say, of action.

再说一次，两个不同的行动窗口。

So there's that acute kind of arousal and this would be you go in the gym, you do a couple of sets, you're not maxing out.

所以有一种强烈的兴奋，这就是你去健身房，做了几组，但没有达到极限。

It's probably going to be your fairly typical couple of sets of eight to 12 reps, kind of 80% of max, something like that.

这可能是相当典型的一组，每组 8 到 12 次，大约是最大次数的 80%，类似这样的。

You do-

你做-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Compound movements?

复合动作？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

So most studies use machines, right?

所以大多数研究都使用机器，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So maybe do a leg press and a chest press and a lat pull down.

所以也许可以做腿部推举、胸部推举和背阔肌下拉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

But multi joint movements.

但多关节运动。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Multi joint movements, usually with machines.

多关节运动，通常使用机器。

And again, if that takes 20 to 30 minutes, that kind of shows some similar effects to that, like 20 to 30 minute jog that I talked about in terms of some acute bumps in cognitive function, probably through arousal, the mild activation of those arousal pathways.

再说一遍，如果这需要 20 到 30 分钟，就会表现出一些类似的效果，就像我谈到的 20 到 30 分钟慢跑，认知功能可能会通过唤醒，即这些唤醒路径的轻微激活而出现一些急性颠簸。

Actually, quite similarly.

事实上，非常相似。

Probably slightly higher intensity will also be beneficial as long as you're able to recover over time.

只要您能够随着时间的推移恢复，稍高的强度可能也会有益。

That recovery is critical, just like I was just saying, in terms of any kind of adaptation.

正如我刚才所说，就任何适应而言，恢复都是至关重要的。

There were several studies of resistance training looking at cognitive function and brain structure over time.

有几项抗阻训练研究着眼于随着时间的推移认知功能和大脑结构。

I say several, it's three or four.

我说几个，就是三四个。

In older adults, and they typically do two or three times a week, five to six exercises, three sets of eight to 12 reps.

对于老年人，他们通常每周做两到三次，五到六次练习，三组，每组八到十二次​​。

Very similar.

非常相似。

So those multi-joint machines in the gym that anybody can do, and they're in any gym.

所以健身房里的那些多关节机器任何人都可以做，而且它们可以在任何健身房里使用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Presses, pull-ups, rowing, pull-downs, leg press.

推举、引体向上、划船、下拉、腿举。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Correct.

正确。

Leg press.

压腿。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hamstring curl.

腿筋卷曲。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

And what you tend to see is that if you do that for at least six months, so the studies go on for six to 12 months, you see significant changes in the structure of the white matter of the brain, and with that, improvements in executive function in particular.

你往往会看到的是，如果你这样做至少六个月，那么研究持续六到十二个月，你就会看到大脑白质结构发生显着变化，尤其是执行功能的改善。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you want to remind people what white matter is?

你想提醒人们什么是白质吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just for the newbies.

只适合新手。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Very broadly, you have white matter and gray matter in your brain.

从广义上讲，大脑中有白质和灰质。

In the human brain, white matter makes up approximately 60% more than most other species, any other species.

在人脑中，白质的含量比大多数其他物种（任何其他物种）多出约 60%。

And so the wrinkly outer part of your brain, the cortex, that's gray matter.

因此，大脑皮层中起皱的外部部分就是灰质。

You also have more gray matter deep inside the brain.

大脑深处也有更多的灰质。

In between that is the white matter, which is where you have the myelin sheaths on your axons.

两者之间是白质，轴突上有髓鞘。

That's what allows those nerves to conduct information really quickly.

这就是让这些神经能够快速传导信息的原因。

Whereas aerobic exercise on that kind of intensity spectrum we just talked about seems to particularly benefit the gray matter, which includes the hippocampus.

而我们刚才谈到的那种强度谱的有氧运动似乎对包括海马体在内的灰质特别有益。

Resistance training seems to particularly benefit the white matter.

阻力训练似乎对白质特别有益。

And so you see improvements in a white matter structure.

所以你会看到白质结构的改善。

And changes in white matter structure with age are one of the best predictors of cognitive decline with age, interestingly.

有趣的是，白质结构随年龄的变化是认知能力随年龄下降的最佳预测因素之一。

Like outside of other things that you see in terms of neuropathology, amyloid, tau, et cetera, that loss of white matter structure and function is closely tied to cognitive decline over time.

就像你在神经病理学、淀粉样蛋白、tau蛋白等方面看到的其他东西一样，白质结构和功能的丧失与随着时间的推移认知能力下降密切相关。

So you see improvements in structure and function of the white matter and potentially improvements in something that we call white matter lesions, which tend to happen around areas of poor blood flow within the white matter of the brain.

因此，您会看到白质结构和功能的改善，以及我们称为白质病变的潜在改善，这种病变往往发生在大脑白质内血流不良的区域周围。

And with that, improvements in executive function.

随之而来的是执行功能的改善。

So, aerobic exercise is gray matter and memory, and resistance training is white matter and more sort of executive type decision making, processing speed type functions.

所以，有氧运动是灰质和记忆，而阻力训练是白质和更多的执行型决策、处理速度型功能。

We talked about lactate and some of these other things that might increase BDNF with the aerobic training.

我们讨论了乳酸和其他一些可能通过有氧训练增加 BDNF 的物质。

In resistance training, I think the primary mediator of that, or one of them, is IGF-1, which is particularly increased with resistance training.

在阻力训练中，我认为其主要调节因素或其中之一是 IGF-1，它随着阻力训练而特别增加。

We know that IGF-1 is really critical to the development of white matter right in the womb and then as a baby.

我们知道 IGF-1 对于子宫内以及婴儿时期白质的发育至关重要。

And it seems to be also really important for white matter structure then throughout the lifespan.

它似乎对整个生命周期的白质结构也非常重要。

So resistance training is a really great way to then create these boosts of IGF-1.

因此，阻力训练确实是增强 IGF-1 的好方法。

So that's probably part of why we see that difference.

这可能就是我们看到这种差异的部分原因。

But that's why you need to do both.

但这就是为什么你需要同时做这两件事。

Though they may have similar kind of acute effects in terms of cognitive function, they seem to be having very different effects in terms of the structure and function of the brain long term.

尽管它们在认知功能方面可能具有类似的急性影响，但从长远来看，它们似乎对大脑的结构和功能具有非常不同的影响。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I so appreciate that you're basically telling us that different forms of exercise impact different critical aspects of brain structure and function.

我非常感激你基本上告诉我们不同形式的锻炼会影响大脑结构和功能的不同关键方面。

So resistance training, white matter, cardio, gray matter, broadly speaking.

所以广义上来说，阻力训练、白质、有氧运动、灰质。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And many different molecules.

还有许多不同的分子。

IGF-1, BDNF, lactate, and on and on.

IGF-1、BDNF、乳酸等等。

Just for, how do you say in Britain?

只是为了，在英国怎么说？

Well, it's not kicks, they use a different word.

嗯，这不是踢，他们用的是不同的词。

But for kicks and giggles, I'll just tell you, there were sort of two running jokes in the field of neuroscience when I was coming up, which was if you desperately need a thesis, fortunately this was not the position I found myself in.

但为了好玩，我只想告诉你，当我刚上来时，神经科学领域有两个流行的笑话，那就是如果你迫切需要一篇论文，幸运的是这不是我所处的位置。

If you desperately need a thesis and it's not going well, study the effect of pretty much any compound on REM sleep, because it will reduce REM sleep.

如果你迫切需要一篇论文，但进展不顺利，请研究几乎所有化合物对快速眼动睡眠的影响，因为它会减少快速眼动睡眠。

There are very few things that increase REM sleep.

很少有什么东西可以增加快速眼动睡眠。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Very few, except sleep deprivation and then REM rebound.

很少，除了睡眠不足和快速眼动睡眠反弹之外。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Ah.

啊。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Likewise, there was a review published by a guy named Jeff Lichtman and Josh Sanes, who were in a different field, so they did a kind of cocky thing.

同样，杰夫·利希特曼（Jeff Lichtman）和乔什·萨内斯（Josh Sanes）发表了一篇评论，他们处于不同的领域，所以他们做了一种自大的事情。

But back then, they were like...

但那时候，他们就像...

They're good guys.

他们是好人。

I know them both.

我认识他们两个。

But they published this review about long-term potentiation.

但他们发表了这篇关于长期增强作用的评论。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Where they said they did a review of the literature, and they said basically you can throw any molecule on a couple of neurons and do the protocol for long-term potentiation, and you get an enhancement of long-term potentiation.

他们说他们对文献进行了回顾，他们说基本上你可以将任何分子扔到几个神经元上并进行长期增强的协议，你会得到长期增强的增强。

Now, that wasn't completely true.

现在，这并不完全正确。

The reason I'm raising this is that there's this theme, right?

我提出这个问题的原因是有这个主题，对吗？

There's certain processes that are not that hard to disrupt, like REM sleep.

有些过程并不难扰乱，比如快速眼动睡眠。

You just kind of tweak the system a little bit, you see a deficit.

你只要稍微调整一下系统，你就会看到一个缺陷。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Small or large deficit.

小额或大额赤字。

And then things like long-term potentiation, which is thought to underlie a lot of forms of learning and memory.

然后是长时程增强，它被认为是许多学习和记忆形式的基础。

In a dish with some neurons or maybe even an animal, you can knock something out or overexpress something and, whoop, you get more or less long-term potentiation.

在含有一些神经元甚至动物的培养皿中，你可以敲除某些东西或过度表达某些东西，然后，哎呀，你或多或少获得了长期增强作用。

It's not that hard to tilt the scale on it.

倾斜其上的天平并不难。

But in reality, the human body has tons of molecules that it deploys.

但实际上，人体拥有大量的分子。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it now, to me, makes perfect sense why plasticity, which of course is the foundation of learning, sort of one and the same in many ways, is brought about by resistance training and by cardiovascular training, because they're both motor.

现在，对我来说，完全可以理解为什么可塑性——当然是学习的基础，在很多方面都是相同的——是由阻力训练和心血管训练带来的，因为它们都是运动性的。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just like crossword puzzles, certain plasticity effect.

就像填字游戏一样，有一定的可塑性作用。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe less than dance, where there's a number of different things.

也许比舞蹈还少，那里有很多不同的东西。

Social inputs, balance inputs, and on and on.

社会投入、平衡投入等等。

So whereas two, three years ago, I would've said, all right, are we really talking about exercise opening plasticity?

因此，两三年前，我会说，好吧，我们真的在谈论运动开启可塑性吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This always seemed like mice running on wheels and you get a few extra neurons, you get a nature paper.

这看起来总是像老鼠在轮子上奔跑一样，你会得到一些额外的神经元，你会得到一篇自然论文。

I love that work.

我喜欢那份工作。

Don't get me wrong.

别误会我的意思。

But it turns out to not be that meaningful-

但事实证明并没有那么有意义——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in terms of new neuron production.

在新神经元的产生方面。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Doesn't seem to be that meaningful for human-

对人类来说似乎没有那么大的意义——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

memory and offsetting cognitive decline.

记忆力和抵消认知能力下降。

But now I have a completely different view of exercise based on your work, based on the studies that you're describing, because it's like, yeah, these are the big guns in terms of deploying lots of molecules that without question are interacting with one another.

但现在，根据你的工作，根据你所描述的研究，我对锻炼有一种完全不同的看法，因为它就像，是的，这些是部署大量分子的大枪，毫无疑问，这些分子彼此相互作用。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I no longer think about exercise as like, okay, well, it's just increasing vessel growth.

所以我不再认为锻炼就像，好吧，好吧，它只是增加血管生长。

You're getting more metabolic health, so then the brain gets better.

你的新陈代谢会变得更加健康，大脑也会变得更好。

I now think about resistance training and cardio and their various forms, as you pointed out, four-by-four, et cetera, as the real plasticity triggers.

我现在考虑阻力训练和有氧运动及其各种形式，正如您所指出的，四乘四等等，作为真正的可塑性触发器。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that was a long-winded way of saying thank you to you and your colleagues who've been doing this and thinking about things like clutch states and molecules that shift plasticity.

因此，这是对您和您的同事表示感谢的冗长方式，他们一直在做这件事并思考离合器状态和改变可塑性的分子等问题。

Because I love reduction of single molecule manipulations.

因为我喜欢减少单分子操作。

I think they're very important in a certain context.

我认为它们在特定情况下非常重要。

But for a while, it was like, gosh, everything opens plasticity and everything disrupts REM sleep.

但有一段时间，天哪，一切都开启了可塑性，一切都扰乱了快速眼动睡眠。

And like, when are we going to get to the stuff?

就像，我们什么时候才能得到这些东西？

Anyway.

反正。

Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, nobody wants these neurodegenerative conditions.

阿尔茨海默氏症、帕金森氏症，没有人想要这些神经退行性疾病。

What is the current thinking about the factors that make one susceptible to Alzheimer's?

目前对于导致人们易患阿尔茨海默氏症的因素有何看法？

I'm beginning to think that it's not just one, but that there's a genetic predisposition issue that maybe you could touch on.

我开始认为这不仅仅是一个问题，而且还存在一个也许你可以触及的遗传倾向问题。

And what can we do besides the things that we're already talking about today to best reduce the chance of accelerated cognitive decline or full-blown Alzheimer's?

除了我们今天已经讨论的事情之外，我们还能做些什么来最好地减少认知加速衰退或全面阿尔茨海默氏症的机会？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

First, when we talk about dementia, which is essentially the end stage of cognitive decline.

首先，当我们谈论痴呆症时，痴呆症本质上是认知能力下降的最后阶段。

There's some trajectory of decline that happens from your peak to that point, where ideally we'd intervene much sooner.

从你的巅峰到那个点，会出现一些下降的轨迹，理想情况下我们会更早进行干预。

But right now, we don't really do much until dementia is diagnosed.

但现在，在诊断出痴呆症之前，我们并没有真正做太多事情。

But it's very similar with like we don't do very much until diabetes is diagnosed.

但这与在诊断出糖尿病之前我们不会做太多事情非常相似。

Ideally, we can act much earlier in that trajectory, and that's increasingly being accepted in the neuroscience and neurology communities.

理想情况下，我们可以在这个轨迹上更早地采取行动，并且这一点越来越被神经科学和神经病学界所接受。

That actually we could potentially change that trajectory or at least decrease risk.

实际上，我们有可能改变这一轨迹，或者至少降低风险。

And so within dementia, as an umbrella term, which is essentially the loss of cognitive function such that you can't look after yourself on a day-to-day basis.

因此，在痴呆症中，作为一个总称，它本质上是认知功能的丧失，以至于你无法在日常生活中照顾自己。

You can't do the basic activities of daily living.

您无法进行日常生活的基本活动。

Alzheimer's disease is the most common.

阿尔茨海默病是最常见的。

It makes up about 60% to 80% of cases of dementia.

它约占痴呆症病例的 60% 至 80%。

The next most common is vascular dementia, although vascular dementia and Alzheimer's disease overlap a ton.

其次最常见的是血管性痴呆，尽管血管性痴呆和阿尔茨海默病有很多重叠。

The vast majority of people who have Alzheimer's disease also have some element of pathology or changes in the blood vessels in their brain, which is what you get with vascular dementia.

绝大多数患有阿尔茨海默病的人的大脑中的血管也有一些病理或变化，这就是血管性痴呆的症状。

And then there's also dementia with Lewy bodies, frontotemporal dementia, and then dementia related to Parkinson's, potentially.

此外，还有路易体痴呆、额颞叶痴呆，以及可能与帕金森氏症相关的痴呆。

Although that overlaps a lot with Lewy body dementia.

尽管这与路易体痴呆有很多重叠。

And dementia and Parkinson's may actually mostly be Lewy body dementia.

痴呆症和帕金森氏症实际上可能主要是路易体痴呆症。

But we've gotten to a point now where it's generally accepted that potentially half of cases of dementia are preventable, and I think the majority of that falls into those first two buckets, Alzheimer's and vascular dementia.

但现在我们已经普遍认为，一半的痴呆症病例是可以预防的，我认为其中大部分属于前两类：阿尔茨海默氏症和血管性痴呆。

Although metabolic disease and other risk factors for Alzheimer's disease also increase the risk of Parkinson's disease and those other dementias as well.

尽管代谢疾病和其他阿尔茨海默病的危险因素也会增加帕金森病和其他痴呆症的风险。

When you then think about Alzheimer's disease specifically, there's one small slice of Alzheimer's which is monogenic, dominant mutations that you have in either...

然后，当您具体考虑阿尔茨海默病时，阿尔茨海默病的一小部分是单基因显性突变，您在以下任一方面都具有......

Most of them happen either in the presenilin genes, presenilin one and two, or the amyloid precursor protein gene.

其中大多数发生在早老素基因、早老素一和二、或淀粉样蛋白前体蛋白基因中。

They make up, at this point, less than 5%, maybe as little as 1%, of Alzheimer's disease.

目前，它们在阿尔茨海默病中所占比例不到 5%，甚至可能只有 1%。

So we set those to the side a little bit.

所以我们把它们稍微放在一边。

The vast majority of Alzheimer's disease is what we would call late-onset Alzheimer's disease, although it's happening actually earlier and earlier in some populations.

绝大多数阿尔茨海默病都是我们所说的晚发性阿尔茨海默病，尽管它在某些人群中发生的时间实际上越来越早。

Yes, there's a genetic component.

是的，有遗传因素。

Your APOE gene is probably your most common risk gene.

您的 APOE 基因可能是最常见的风险基因。

There's also polygenic risk, so thousands of genes can give you a little bit more or a little bit less risk of Alzheimer's disease.

还有多基因风险，因此数千个基因可以使您患阿尔茨海默氏病的风险或多或少。

But it's much more related to lifestyle and the environment than, say, that kind of early onset monogenic Alzheimer's disease.

但它与生活方式和环境的关系比那种早发性单基因阿尔茨海默氏病的关系要大得多。

And the best accepted review of all of this is run by the Lancet Commission on Dementia Prevention, overseen by Professor Jill Livingston.

对所有这些内容最受认可的审查是由吉尔·利文斯顿教授监督的《柳叶刀》痴呆症预防委员会负责进行的。

And the most recent version of this suggested that there were 14 risk factors who, between them, accounted for about 45% of dementia risk or dementia cases, and that are modifiable.

最新版本表明，有 14 个风险因素，它们约占痴呆风险或痴呆病例的 45%，并且是可以改变的。

So, low life education, high blood pressure, diabetes, hearing loss, vision loss, brain trauma, high cholesterol they recently added.

所以，低生活教育、高血压、糖尿病、听力损失、视力丧失、脑外伤、高胆固醇他们最近又增加了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

High LDL.

高低密度脂蛋白。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

High LDL cholesterol, low physical activity.

低密度脂蛋白胆固醇高，体力活动低。

So this is all related to the things we've already talked about, right?

所以这一切都与我们已经讨论过的事情有关，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Maintaining good physical health, maintaining inputs, getting inputs in the first place, right?

保持良好的身体健康，保持投入，首先获得投入，对吧？

Education is critical.

教育至关重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And hearing loss, as I recall, was an important one.

我记得，听力损失是一个重要的损失。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

In reference to inputs.

参考输入。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You don't want sensory input degraded.

您不希望感官输入退化。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

So hearing loss, vision loss, social isolation.

因此听力丧失、视力丧失、社会孤立。

So two things they didn't include that were fairly controversial and were sort of debated.

因此，他们没有包括的两件事是相当有争议的，并且引起了争议。

Letters were written to the editor and all that kind of stuff, as happens in academia, related to...

写给编辑的信以及所有类似的事情，就像学术界发生的那样，与……有关。

So they didn't include sleep loss or sleep deprivation as a risk factor for dementia, even though the evidence, particularly if you're-

因此，他们没有将睡眠不足或睡眠剥夺作为痴呆症的危险因素，尽管有证据表明，特别是如果你——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Didn't look at it or didn't include it?

没看过还是没收录？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

They didn't include it.

他们没有包括它。

So they talked about it, but they felt that the level of evidence wasn't high enough, though it was probably as high as some of the other things that they included.

所以他们讨论了这个问题，但他们觉得证据水平不够高，尽管它可能与他们所包含的其他一些东西一样高。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a tricky one.

这是一个棘手的问题。

I don't want to take us on too much of a tangent, but having looked at these data a lot, I do think that people need to get enough sleep.

我不想让我们偏离太多主题，但在大量查看这些数据后，我确实认为人们需要充足的睡眠。

But some people, like myself, do fine on six and a half or seven hours, and other people can do fine on only seven or eight or nine.

但有些人，比如我自己，六个半小时或七个小时就可以做得很好，而其他人只需七个、八个或九个小时就可以做得很好。

Very few people are AOK all the time on just four to five hours-

很少有人能在短短四到五个小时内始终保持 AOK——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for prolonged periods of time.

长时间。

But when we say not AOK, what tends to happen with shift work or people that are chronically sleep deprived is most of the other things you're talking about get worse.

但是，当我们说“不可以”时，轮班工作或长期睡眠不足的人往往会发生的情况是您所说的大多数其他事情都会变得更糟。

LDL goes up, stress level goes up.

低密度脂蛋白升高，压力水平升高。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Diabetes.

糖尿病。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Diabetes goes...

糖尿病会...

It's like I can understand why they might not have included it, but it seems so foundational to me that it does seem kind of a shame.

就好像我可以理解为什么他们可能没有包含它，但它对我来说似乎是如此基础，以至于它看起来确实有点可惜。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Part of it is related to how they analyze the data.

部分原因与他们分析数据的方式有关。

So we can get to that.

所以我们可以做到这一点。

But I mean, in reality, when you look at the data on sleep loss and dementia risk, the cutoff is really around six hours.

但我的意思是，实际上，当你查看有关睡眠不足和痴呆风险的数据时，你会发现截止时间实际上是在六个小时左右。

So if you're consistently sleeping fewer than six hours, that's where risk starts to increase.

因此，如果您的睡眠时间持续少于六个小时，那么风险就会开始增加。

So that kind of fits.

所以这很合适。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That sounds about right.

听起来不错。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, that sounds about right.

是的，听起来不错。

Because I think it's the lack of those last two cycles that are REM enriched.

因为我认为缺乏最后两个周期的快速眼动睡眠。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because in the beginning of the night, you get your growth hormone surge, you get a lot of deep sleep, assuming you're doing things right during the day, and then it's those last two 90-minute-ish cycles that you glean most of your REM.

因为在晚上刚开始的时候，你的生长激素会激增，你会得到大量的深度睡眠，假设你白天做的事情都是正确的，然后在最后两个 90 分钟左右的周期中，你会获得大部分的 REM。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And if you're not getting those night in and night out and night in, night out, like sooner or later, you're going to have issues.

如果你不能夜以继日地夜以继日地工作，迟早你就会遇到问题。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So sleep was one.

所以睡眠就是其中之一。

Then the other one was nutrient status.

其次是营养状况。

So they didn't talk about omega-3s, B vitamins, which we do actually have some quite high-quality interventional and observational kind of epidemiological data for.

所以他们没有谈论 omega-3、B 族维生素，我们实际上拥有一些相当高质量的干预和观察类型的流行病学数据。

So there was kind of some discussion as whether those things should've been included.

因此，对于是否应该包括这些内容进行了一些讨论。

Other analyses that looked at those suggested that they potentially contribute a significant of the amount of the population attributable risk of dementia.

其他对这些问题的分析表明，它们可能会导致大部分人口罹患痴呆症的风险。

So all that to say that their 45% estimate could be quite conservative if we consider some of the other things.

因此，如果我们考虑其他一些因素，他们的 45% 估计可能相当保守。

There are some other studies that suggest that maybe as many as or as much as 70% of dementias may be preventable.

还有一些其他研究表明，可能多达 70% 的痴呆症是可以预防的。

But then you have to start including things related to socioeconomic status and deprivation and other societal factors that we know have a massive impact as well.

但接下来你必须开始考虑与社会经济地位和贫困有关的事情，以及我们知道也会产生巨大影响的其他社会因素。

So that's less modifiable, like on the individual level, right?

所以这不太容易修改，就像在个人层面上一样，对吗？

It really would require changes at the societal level, which is kind of harder to do.

这确实需要社会层面的改变，而这很难做到。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can I ask you a question?

我可以问你一个问题吗？

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's going to be a very controversial one.

这将是一个非常有争议的问题。

But there are people arguing, there are very smart people, I should say, arguing that the shingles vaccine-

但有人争论，我应该说，有一些非常聪明的人争论带状疱疹疫苗-

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

is lowering rates of dementia significantly.

显着降低痴呆症的发病率。

I haven't looked at those data closely yet.

我还没有仔细查看这些数据。

I plan to, but it certainly is intriguing given the data that herpes viruses of various sorts have been correlated-

我计划这么做，但考虑到各种疱疹病毒之间的相关性，这确实很有趣——

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

with Alzheimer's.

患有阿尔茨海默氏症。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

This comes off the back of three or four very large natural experiments that have been done in various countries and really how you interpret these data is going to depend a little bit on your kind of risk tolerance and like what you think should be done in terms of the level of evidence required to intervene.

这是在不同国家进行的三到四个非常大的自然实验的结果，实际上，你如何解释这些数据将在一定程度上取决于你的风险承受能力，以及你认为应该在干预所需的证据水平方面采取什么措施。

So I'll describe the studies in a second, but some people are definitely saying if you want to say that the shingles vaccine decreases dementia risk, you have to have a clinical trial that's adequately powered to show that, and there is a trial like that being planned currently.

因此，我将立即描述这些研究，但有些人肯定会说，如果你想说带状疱疹疫苗可以降低痴呆风险，你必须进行一项有足够能力的临床试验来证明这一点，目前正在计划进行类似的试验。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So the studies that have happened so far, there was one in the UK in Wales, one in Australia, and one in Canada.

到目前为止，英国威尔士有一项研究，澳大利亚有一项研究，加拿大也有一项研究。

And in each of those countries what happened was that on a single date, a huge tranche of people became eligible to get the shingles vaccine whereas if they were born one day earlier, they weren't eligible.

在这些国家中，发生的情况是，在同一天，很大一部分人有资格接种带状疱疹疫苗，而如果他们早一天出生，则没有资格接种。

So you get what we call like a natural experiment where from one day to the next, those people shouldn't be that different otherwise.

所以你会得到我们所说的自然实验，从一天到下一天，这些人不应该有什么不同。

And they showed that rates of other diseases weren't that different, rates of uptake of other healthcare and other vaccines wasn't that different, but there was a big shift in the uptake of the shingles vaccine.

他们表明，其他疾病的发病率并没有那么不同，其他医疗保健和其他疫苗的接种率也没有那么不同，但带状疱疹疫苗的接种率发生了很大的变化。

And so what they essentially consistently showed across all those different populations was that those who got the shingles vaccine or were eligible to have the shingles vaccine, depending on whether they had access to the data on whether people got it or not, had a decreased risk of dementia.

因此，他们在所有这些不同人群中基本上一致地表明，那些接种了带状疱疹疫苗或有资格接种带状疱疹疫苗的人，患痴呆症的风险降低了，这取决于他们是否能够获得有关人们是否接种了带状疱疹疫苗的数据。

And that was consistently seen across those three groups.

这在这三个群体中都是一致的。

All those three trials used an older version of the shingles vaccine called Zostavax, which was a live attenuated vaccine.

所有这三项试验都使用了一种名为 Zostavax 的旧版本带状疱疹疫苗，这是一种减毒活疫苗。

There's now a newer version called Shingrix, which is a recombinant vaccine, and there was a study done in the US that compared people who switched from...

现在有一种名为 Shingrix 的新版本，这是一种重组疫苗，美国进行了一项研究，比较了从...转换的人。

There was a similar switch from Zostavax to Shingrix and saw that Shingrix was associated with a lower risk of dementia compared to Zostavax, although both were associated with a lower risk than none.

从 Zostavax 到 Shingrix 也有类似的转变，并且发现与 Zostavax 相比，Shingrix 与痴呆症风险较低相关，尽管两者的风险都比没有风险低。

When you look at some of these trials or studies, because they're not trials, people have made a very fair comment, which is that when you look at the trajectory of dementia over time, you look at something called a Kaplan-Meier curve, so it's like a survival curve.

当你看其中一些试验或研究时，因为它们不是试验，人们做出了非常公正的评论，那就是，当你看痴呆症随时间变化的轨迹时，你会看到一种叫做卡普兰-迈耶曲线的东西，所以它就像一条生存曲线。

So like, every time somebody gets a case of dementia, like the line goes up and you look at the trajectory of the two lines, those who got the vaccine or not, they diverge very early, which kind of says that, oh, it only takes a couple of months to kind of see this difference in dementia risk, which you wouldn't really expect based on like the natural course of dementia takes years to happen.

就像，每当有人患上痴呆症时，就像这条线上升一样，你看看两条线的轨迹，无论是否接种了疫苗，它们很早就出现了分歧，这就意味着，哦，只需要几个月的时间就能看到痴呆症风险的这种差异，而你不会真正期望基于痴呆症的自然病程需要数年时间才能发生这种差异。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

So, this is very common in these kinds of studies, and it's due to residual confounding.

因此，这种情况在此类研究中很常见，这是由于残留混杂因素造成的。

So there's like something inherently different about the populations that may be driving some of this different, right?

因此，人口中存在一些本质上的差异可能会导致这种差异，对吗？

They were going to get less dementia anyway, and so maybe the shingles vaccine isn't having that big of an effect.

无论如何，他们患痴呆症的几率会减少，所以带状疱疹疫苗可能不会产生那么大的效果。

But I would say that having looked at all those trials and all those data, I'm convinced enough that there's a signal there.

但我想说，在看过所有这些试验和所有这些数据后，我确信那里有一个信号。

There should be a randomized control trial that's happening.

应该进行一项随机对照试验。

But there is a number of reasons why this might be the case.

但造成这种情况的原因有很多。

One, obviously we know it reduces cases of shingles.

第一，显然我们知道它可以减少带状疱疹的病例。

Shingles can be very painful.

带状疱疹可能会非常痛苦。

It can change how people interact with the world.

它可以改变人们与世界互动的方式。

You stay at home, you don't feel good, you're in a lot of pain for a long period of time.

你呆在家里，感觉不舒服，很长一段时间都处于痛苦之中。

That can go for many months.

这可能会持续好几个月。

It's rare for it to last many months, but it can last a long time.

持续数月的情况很少见，但可以持续很长时间。

Then they've hypothesized In some of those papers that the magnitude of the reduction of dementia risk didn't map perfectly onto the reduction in cases of shingles, right?

然后，他们在其中一些论文中假设，痴呆症风险的降低程度并不能完美地反映带状疱疹病例的减少，对吗？

There had to be something else going on as well.

一定还发生了其他事情。

They've suggested that it may be due to an immunomodulatory effect.

他们认为这可能是由于免疫调节作用。

It may be because you're also suppressing other viruses like herpes simplex virus that we know may also be associated with certain cases of dementia or Alzheimer's.

这可能是因为您还抑制了其他病毒，例如单纯疱疹病毒，我们知道这些病毒也可能与某些痴呆症或阿尔茨海默氏症病例有关。

And one of the arguments for the immunomodulatory effect is because, not in all the studies, but in most of the studies, there's a slightly bigger signal in women than there is in men.

支持免疫调节作用的论点之一是，虽然不是所有研究，但在大多数研究中，女性的信号比男性稍大一些。

And it may be that that sort of-

可能是这样的——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Meaning it's more effective in women

这意味着它对女性更有效

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

...

...

more effective in women than it was in men.

对女性比对男性更有效。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we should mention that the shingles virus lives on neurons.

我们应该提到带状疱疹病毒生活在神经元上。

Tommy Wood:

汤米·伍德：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。