弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基：乌克兰、战争、和平、普京、特朗普、北约与自由

I hope the Kyiv Airport will open soon then it will be easier to fly in.

我希望基辅机场尽快开放，这样乘飞机会更方便。

Yes.

是的。

00:05 I think that the war will end and President Trump may be the first leader to travel here by airplane.

我认为战争将会结束，特朗普总统可能是第一个乘飞机来这里的领导人。

I think it would be symbolic by airplane.

我认为飞机是具有象征意义的。

Again, January 25th around that date, right.

还是那一天，1 月 25 日左右，对吧。

00:16 Flying in, meeting the Air Force One.

飞来，与空军一号会面。

That would be cool.

那会很酷。

There is a perception of corruption.

有一种腐败的感觉。

00:23 People like Donald Trump and Elon Musk really care about fighting corruption.

像唐纳德·特朗普和埃隆·马斯克这样的人非常关心打击腐败。

What can you say to them to gain their trust that the money is going towards this fight for freedom, towards the war effort?

你能对他们说些什么来赢得他们的信任，让他们相信这些钱将用于这场争取自由的斗争，用于战争的努力？

In most of cases, we did not receive money, we received weapons.

在大多数情况下，我们没有收到钱，而是收到了武器。

00:41 And where we saw risks that something could be happening with weapons, we cracked down hard on everyone.

当我们看到武器可能发生问题的风险时，我们就会严厉打击所有人。

And believe me, this is not only about Ukraine.

相信我，这不仅仅与乌克兰有关。

Everywhere along the supply chain, there are some or other people and companies who want to make money, they try to make money on the war.

供应链上到处都有一些人和公司想要赚钱，他们试图通过战争赚钱。

We did not profit from the war.

我们没有从战争中获利。

If we caught someone, believe me, we cracked down hard on them, and we did that, and we will continue to do so because to this day when someone says that, “Ukraine was selling weapons,” and by the way, Russia was the one pushing this narrative, we always responded, “Our soldiers would kill such people with their own hands without any trial.”

如果我们抓住了某人，相信我，我们会严厉打击他们，我们这样做了，我们将继续这样做，因为直到今天，当有人说“乌克兰在出售武器”时，顺便说一句，俄罗斯是推动这一说法的人，我们总是回应说，“我们的士兵会在没有任何审判的情况下亲手杀死这些人。”

01:34 Do you honestly think anyone could steal weapons by the truckload when we ourselves don’t have enough on the front lines and yet we have to provide proof to defend ourselves?

你真的认为当我们自己在前线没有足够的武器而我们却必须提供证据来保卫自己时，有人可以偷走一卡车的武器吗？

Because when there’s an abundance of such misinformation, distrust starts to grow.

因为当此类错误信息大量存在时，不信任就会开始增长。

And you’re right, people listen to various media outlets, see this and lose faith in you.

你是对的，人们听各种媒体报道，看到这一点并对你失去信心。

In the end, you lose trust and with it you lose support.

最终，你失去了信任，也失去了支持。

Therefore, believe me, we are fighting more against disinformation than against particular cases, although I still emphasize once again at the everyday level, such things are still important.

因此，相信我，我们更多的是在打击虚假信息，而不是针对特定案件，尽管我仍然在日常层面再次强调，这些事情仍然很重要。

We catch these people and we fight them.

我们抓住这些人并与他们战斗。

02:22 …

……

as if Putin wants to sit down and talk, but Ukraine does not.

就好像普京想坐下来谈谈，但乌克兰不愿意。

This is not true.

这不是真的。

I think that yes, he is in fact ready to talk.

我认为是的，他实际上已经准备好说话了。

Did you talk to him?

你跟他说话了吗？

On the phone or what?

打电话还是什么？

How do you normally talk to him?

你平时怎么跟他说话？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

02:39 Normally by the sea, the same as with you.

通常在海边，和你一样。

He invites you to the sea with me, just the three of us.

他邀请你和我一起去海边，只有我们三个人。

No, no.

不，不。

02:45 One of us may drown.

我们中的一个人可能会被淹死。

Who?

WHO？

02:48 Are you good at swimming?

你擅长游泳吗？

Yes, I’m a good swimmer.

是的，我是一个很好的游泳运动员。

You’re a good swimmer.

你是一个很好的游泳运动员。

02:50 Well, if you think that the President of a country is completely crazy, it is really hard to come to an agreement with him.

好吧，如果你认为一个国家的总统完全疯了，那真的很难与他达成一致。

You have to look at him as a serious person who loves his country and loves the people in his country, and he conducts, yes, destructive military actions-

你必须把他视为一个认真的人，热爱他的国家，热爱他的国家的人民，他进行了，是的，破坏性的军事行动——

Who are you talking about now?

你现在在说谁？

03:10 Who loves his country?

谁爱他的国家？

Putin.

普京。

03:12 Do you think he doesn’t love his country?

你认为他不爱他的国家吗？

No.

不。

03:16 What is his country?

他的国家是什么？

He happened to consider Ukraine, his country.

他碰巧将乌克兰视为他的国家。

What is his country?

他的国家是什么？

When do you think there will be presidential elections in Ukraine?

您认为乌克兰什么时候举行总统选举？

03:29 The following is a conversation with Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the President of Ukraine.

以下是与乌克兰总统泽连斯基的对话。

It was an intense, raw and heartfelt conversation, my goal for which, was to understand and to do all I can to push for peace.

这是一次激烈、原始和衷心的对话，我的目标是理解并尽我所能推动和平。

Please allow me to say a few words first about language, then about the President, and finally about history.

请允许我先谈谈语言，然后谈谈总统，最后谈谈历史。

Please skip ahead straight to our conversation if you like.

如果您愿意，请直接跳到我们的对话。

We spoke in a mix of languages, continuously switching from Ukrainian to Russian to English, so the interpreter was barely hanging on.

我们用多种语言交谈，不断地从乌克兰语、俄语到英语，所以翻译几乎没能坚持下来。

It was indeed in many ways a wild ride of a conversation.

从很多方面来说，这确实是一次疯狂的谈话。

As the President said, “The first of many.

正如总统所说：“这是众多事件中的第一个。

Language, like many other things in a time of war is a big deal.” We had a choice, speaking Russian, Ukrainian or English.

语言，就像战争时期的许多其他事情一样，是一件大事。”我们可以选择，说俄语、乌克兰语或英语。

The President does speak some English, but he’s far from fluent in it and I sadly don’t speak Ukrainian yet, so Russian is the only common language we’re both fluent.

总统确实会说一些英语，但他的英语还远远不够流利，遗憾的是我还不会说乌克兰语，所以俄语是我们唯一能流利的共同语言。

04:39 In case you don’t know, the Russian language is one that the President speaks fluently and was his primary language for most of his life.

如果你不知道的话，俄语是总统说得流利的语言，也是他一生中大部分时间的主要语言。

It’s the language I also speak fluently to the degree I speak any language fluently, as does a large fraction of the Ukrainian population.

我也能流利地讲这种语言，就像我能流利地讲任何语言一样，乌克兰人口中的很大一部分也是如此。

So the most dynamic and powerful conversation between us would be in Russian without an interpreter, who in this case added about two to three second delay and frankly translated partially and poorly for me at least, taking away my ability to feel the humor, the wit, the brilliance, the pain, the anger, the humanity of the person sitting before me, that I could clearly feel when he was speaking fluently in the language I understand, Russian.

因此，我们之间最有活力和最有力的对话将是在没有翻译的情况下用俄语进行的，在这种情况下，翻译增加了大约两到三秒的延迟，并且坦率地说，至少对我来说部分翻译得很糟糕，剥夺了我感受到坐在我面前的人的幽默、机智、聪明、痛苦、愤怒和人性的能力，当他流利地用我理解的语言（俄语）说话时，我可以清楚地感觉到。

But all that said, war changes everything.

但话虽如此，战争改变了一切。

The Ukrainian language has become a symbol of the Ukrainian people’s fight for freedom and independence, so we had a difficult choice of three languages and faced with that choice, we said yes to all three.

乌克兰语已经成为乌克兰人民争取自由和独立的象征，所以我们在三种语言中做出了艰难的选择，面对这个选择，我们对这三种语言都说“是”。

05:49 To the consternation and dismay of the translators.

让译者们感到震惊和沮丧。

We make captions and voice over audio tracks available in English, Ukrainian, and Russian, so you can listen either to a version that is all one language or to the original mixed language version with subtitles in your preferred language.

我们提供英语、乌克兰语和俄语字幕和旁白音轨，因此您可以收听全是一种语言的版本，也可以收听带有您喜欢的语言字幕的原始混合语言版本。

The default is English overdub.

默认为英语配音。

On YouTube you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking audio track and then selecting the language you prefer English, Ukrainian, Russian.

在 YouTube 上，您可以通过单击设置齿轮图标，然后单击音轨，然后选择您喜欢的语言英语、乌克兰语、俄语来切换语言音轨。

To listen to the original mixed-language version, please select the English (UK) audio track, big thank you to ElevenLabs for their help with overdubbing using a mix of AI and humans.

要收听原始混合语言版本，请选择英语（英国）音轨，非常感谢 ElevenLabs 在使用人工智能和人类混合进行配音方面提供的帮助。

We will continue to explore how to break down the barriers that language creates with AI and otherwise.

我们将继续探索如何打破语言与人工智能和其他方式造成的障碍。

This is a difficult but important endeavor.

这是一项困难但重要的努力。

Language, after all, is much more than a cold sequence of facts and logic statements.

毕竟，语言不仅仅是冷冰冰的事实和逻辑陈述序列。

06:58 There are words when spoken in the right sequence and at the right time they can shake the world and turn the tides of history.

有些话，只要在正确的时间、以正确的顺序说出，就能撼动世界，扭转历史的潮流。

They can start and end wars.

他们可以开始和结束战争。

Great leaders can find those words and great translators can help these words reverberate to the outskirts of a divided civilization.

伟大的领导者可以找到这些词语，伟大的翻译者可以帮助这些词语在分裂的文明的边缘产生回响。

On another note, let me say that President Zelenskyy is a truly remarkable person and a historic figure.

另一方面，我要说的是，泽连斯基总统是一位真正了不起的人，一位历史人物。

I say this as somebody who deeply understands the geopolitical complexity and history of the region.

我是作为一个深刻了解该地区地缘政治复杂性和历史的人这样说的。

I am from this region.

我来自这个地区。

My parents were both born in Ukraine, Kyiv and Kharkiv, both my grandfathers too.

我的父母都出生在乌克兰基辅和哈尔科夫，也是我的祖父。

I was born in Tajikistan and lived for a time there, then in Kyiv, then Moscow, then United States, and while I am now for almost 30 years and to the day I die, I’m a proud American.

我出生在塔吉克斯坦，在那里住过一段时间，然后在基辅，然后在莫斯科，然后在美国，虽然我已经生活了近 30 年，直到我去世的那一天，我仍然是一个自豪的美国人。

My family roots grow deep in the soil of nations that comprised the Soviet Union, including Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, and Tajikistan.

我的家族根源深深扎根于苏联的各个国家，包括乌克兰、俄罗斯、白俄罗斯和塔吉克斯坦。

08:13 I’ve gotten to know and have spoken for hours with members of the President’s team and people close to him.

我已经了解了总统团队的成员和与他关系密切的人，并与他进行了数小时的交谈。

I spoke to hundreds of Ukrainians since 2022, including soldiers, civilians, politicians, artists, religious leaders, journalists, economists, historians and technologists.

自 2022 年以来，我与数百名乌克兰人进行了交谈，其中包括士兵、平民、政治家、艺术家、宗教领袖、记者、经济学家、历史学家和技术专家。

I listened to hundreds of hours of programs that both support and criticize the President in Ukraine, in Russia, and the United States.

我收听了数百个小时的节目，这些节目既支持又批评乌克兰、俄罗斯和美国的总统。

I’ve read countless books about this war and the long arc of history that led up to it.

我读过无数关于这场战争以及导致这场战争的漫长历史的书籍。

It forced to recommend two at this moment, I would say The Russo-Ukrainian War by Serhii Plokhy and The Showman by Simon Shuster, which is a good personal behind-the-scenes biography of the President focused on 2022, but there are many, many more.

此刻不得不推荐两本，我想说的是 Serhii Plokhy 的《俄乌战争》和 Simon Shuster 的《马戏人》，这是一本很好的总统个人幕后传记，重点关注 2022 年，但还有很多很多。

This is why I can comfortably say that he is a truly singular and remarkable human being.

这就是为什么我可以轻松地说他是一个真正独特而非凡的人。

It was an honor and pleasure to talk with him on and off the mic.

能够通过麦克风与他交谈是一种荣幸和愉快。

09:18 Now, it is true that I plan to travel to Moscow and to speak with President Vladimir Putin and I hope to be back in Kyiv as well as President Zelenskyy said, this was our first of many more meetings.

现在，我确实计划前往莫斯科并与弗拉基米尔·普京总统交谈，我希望回到基辅，正如泽伦斯基总统所说，这是我们许多次会议中的第一次。

In all of these cases, I seek to do my small part in pushing for peace.

在所有这些情况下，我都力求为推动和平尽自己的微薄之力。

And in doing all this, I’m deeply grateful for the trust people have given me on all sides.

在做这一切的过程中，我非常感谢各方给予我的信任。

For the people attacking me, sometimes lying about me, for the critics in the stands chanting the latest slogans of the mass hysteria machine like the sheep in Animal Farm, I love you too.

对于那些攻击我、有时对我撒谎的人，对于看台上像《动物农场》中的羊一样高呼大众歇斯底里机器最新口号的批评者，我也爱你们。

And I assure you that drawing lines between good and evil on a world map is much easier than seeing that line between good and evil in every human being, including you and me.

我向你保证，在世界地图上划清善恶界限，比在每个人（包括你和我）身上划清善恶界限要容易得多。

This is what I try to do.

这就是我尝试做的事情。

I’m simply a human being who seeks to find and surface the humanity in others, and as I’ve said, no amount of money, fame, power, access can buy my opinion or my integrity.

我只是一个寻求发现并展现他人人性的人，正如我所说，再多的金钱、名誉、权力、机会也买不来我的观点或我的正直。

Now, finally, please allow me to briefly overview some history to give background for several topics that President Zelenskyy references in this conversation.

现在，最后，请允许我简要回顾一些历史，为泽连斯基总统在这次谈话中提到的几个主题提供背景。

I recommend my conversation with Serhii Plokhy and many others about the history of the region.

我推荐我与 Serhii Plokhy 和许多其他人谈论该地区的历史。

But here, let me start with 1991.

但在这里，让我从 1991 年开始。

When Ukraine declared its independence and the Soviet Union collapsed.

乌克兰宣布独立，苏联解体。

From this point on Russia-Ukraine relations were defined in large part by whether Ukraine aligned more with Russia or with the West, meaning Europe, United States, NATO, and so on.

从那时起，俄罗斯与乌克兰的关系在很大程度上取决于乌克兰是更倾向于俄罗斯还是西方，即欧洲、美国、北约等。

In 2004, with the Orange Revolution, a pro-Western candidate, Viktor Yushchenko became President.

2004年，随着橙色革命，亲西方的候选人维克托·尤先科就任总统。

In 2010, it went the other way.

2010年，情况却走向了相反。

A pro-Russia candidate, Viktor Yanukovych became President.

亲俄罗斯候选人维克托·亚努科维奇成为总统。

The internal tensions grew and in 2013 Euromaidan protests broke out over Yanukovych’s decision to suspend talks with the European Union in favor of closer ties with Russia.

内部紧张局势加剧，2013 年，亚努科维奇决定暂停与欧盟的谈判，转而与俄罗斯建立更密切的关系，引发了亲欧盟示威抗议。

This set forward a chain of important events in 2014.

这为2014年一系列重要事件奠定了基础。

On the politics front, Yanukovych was ousted and fled to Russia leading to the election of a pro-Western President.

在政治方面，亚努科维奇被赶下台并逃往俄罗斯，导致亲西方总统的选举。

11:45 Also, in 2014, on the war front, Russia annexed Crimea and war broke out in the Donbas region of Eastern Ukraine, which eventually killed over 14,000 people and continued all the way to 2022.

此外，在战争方面，2014年，俄罗斯吞并克里米亚，乌克兰东部顿巴斯地区爆发战争，最终造成1.4万多人死亡，并一直持续到2022年。

When on February 24th 2022, Russian forces initiated a full scale invasion of Ukraine.

2022年2月24日，俄罗斯军队对乌克兰发动全面入侵。

This is when the world started to really pay attention.

这是世界开始真正关注的时候。

Now some history of peace talks.

现在讲一些和谈的历史。

Volodymyr Zelenskyy won the presidency in 2019 and he discusses in this conversation the ceasefire agreements he made with Vladimir Putin in 2019, which was one of many attempts at peace from the two Minsk agreements in 2014 and ’15 to a series of ceasefire agreements in 2018, ’19, and ’20, all of which failed in part or in whole.

弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基 (Volodymyr Zelenskyy) 于 2019 年赢得总统职位，他在这次谈话中讨论了他在 2019 年与弗拉基米尔·普京 (Vladimir Putin) 达成的停火协议，这是从 2014 年和 15 年的两项明斯克协议到 2018 年、19 年和 20 年的一系列停火协议的众多和平尝试之一，所有这些协议都部分或全部失败。

All this shows just how difficult ceasefire and peace negotiations are, but they are not impossible.

这一切都说明停火与和平谈判是多么困难，但也并非不可能。

It is always worth trying over and over again to find the path to peace.

为了找到和平之路，总是值得一次又一次地尝试。

12:55 I believe that Presidents Zelenskyy, Putin and Trump should meet soon after January 20th this year and give everything they got to negotiate a ceasefire and security guarantees that pave the way for long-lasting peace.

我相信泽连斯基、普京和特朗普总统应该在今年 1 月 20 日后不久会面，并尽一切努力谈判停火和安全保障，为持久和平铺平道路。

We discussed several ideas for this in this conversation.

我们在这次谈话中讨论了一些想法。

As I said, this was one of my main goals here, to push for peace.

正如我所说，推动和平是我在这里的主要目标之一。

This trip to Kyiv and this conversation was a truly special moment for me in my life.

这次基辅之行和这次谈话对我来说是人生中一个真正特别的时刻。

It is one I will never forget, so to reflect I say a few more words and answer some questions at the very end if you like to listen, but here let me say thank you to everyone for your support over the years.

这是我永远不会忘记的，所以为了反思，如果你们愿意听的话，我在最后多说几句话并回答一些问题，但在这里我要感谢大家多年来的支持。

It means the world.

它意味着世界。

This is a Lex Fridman Podcast and now dear friends, here’s the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客，亲爱的朋友们，这是乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基。

13:55 If we can explain why the Ukrainian language is very important, our conversation will be most effective and impactful if we speak in Russian.

如果我们能解释为什么乌克兰语非常重要，那么我们用俄语进行对话将是最有效和最有影响力的。

I speak Russian perfectly of course, and I understand everything you are talking about.

当然，我俄语说得很好，我明白你所说的一切。

14:01 However, I can’t respond in Russian the entire interview.

然而，我无法在整个采访中用俄语回答。

It’s because this is how it is today.

因为今天就是这样。

I’m not making anything up.

我没有编造任何事情。

You can see it all for yourself.

您可以亲自看到这一切。

You can feel and hear it.

你可以感觉到并听到它。

Today, there were 73 missile attacks against us and people were killed.

今天，我们遭受了 73 次导弹袭击，造成人员伤亡。

There were over 100 drones today, and this is a daily occurrence.

今天有超过 100 架无人机，这种情况每天都会发生。

The people who attack us, they speak Russian.

攻击我们的人说俄语。

They attack people who were only recently told that this was actually in defense of Russian-speaking people, and this is why I respect neither the leader or director of today’s Russia, nor the people.

他们攻击那些最近才被告知这实际上是为了保卫俄语人民的人，这就是为什么我既不尊重当今俄罗斯的领导人或导演，也不尊重人民。

That’s it.

就是这样。

And I don’t think that you can just pretend that nothing’s happening and give Putin a pass once again for saying that, “We are one people, that we speak one language,” et cetera.

我不认为你可以假装什么都没发生，然后再次给普京通行证，因为他说“我们是一个民族，我们说一种语言”等等。

They speak the language of weapons.

他们说的是武器的语言。

That is a fact, and we are peaceful people.

这是事实，我们是爱好和平的人。

Peaceful people who want to protect themselves and defend their freedom and their human choice.

想要保护自己、捍卫自由和人类选择的和平人民。

At the beginning of the war, I addressed Russians in Russian, zero effect.

战争开始时，我用俄语向俄罗斯人讲话，效果为零。

They’re mute.

他们是沉默的。

15:33 They do not listen.

他们不听。

They did not listen.

他们不听。

Some are afraid, some have other issues.

有些人害怕，有些人有其他问题。

They have different reasons.

他们有不同的理由。

It’s like when a person is drowning and people walk by because they can’t hear them.

这就像一个人溺水时，人们路过，因为他们听不到他们的声音。

And someone walks on by crying, afraid to save them.

有人哭着继续走，害怕拯救他们。

It doesn’t change anything for the one drowning.

对于溺水者来说，这不会改变任何事情。

They need someone to help them.

他们需要有人帮助他们。

This is why I honestly despise these people as they are deaf.

这就是为什么我真诚地鄙视这些人，因为他们是聋子。

They began the occupation in the supposed defense of the Russian language and that’s why with all due respect, I would like to give an interview in Ukrainian.

他们开始占领是为了保卫俄语，这就是为什么恕我直言，我想用乌克兰语接受采访。

This is very important to me.

这对我来说非常重要。

If there are some points that you want me to explain in Russian, I can certainly do that.

如果您希望我用俄语解释某些要点，我当然可以做到。

I can certainly occasionally speak Russian, but in general, no.

我当然偶尔会说俄语，但一般来说不会。

I’m not sure that you will understand me completely, despite your Ukrainian roots, you are a citizen of the United States, right?

我不确定你是否能完全理解我，尽管你有乌克兰血统，但你是美国公民，对吗？

Yes.

是的。

That’s why I’m surprised that you don’t understand.

这就是为什么我对你不明白感到惊讶。

16:40 Well, it was a long time ago.

嗯，那是很久以前的事了。

I understand that it was a long time ago.

我明白那是很久以前的事了。

Moreover, a lot has changed.

此外，很多事情都发生了变化。

A lot has changed.

发生了很多变化。

If I may, please allow me to say this in Russian.

如果可以的话，请允许我用俄语说这句话。

16:58 Yes, many things have changed, but I have hope.

是的，很多事情都改变了，但我仍然抱有希望。

I hope that today many Russians will hear this, that Vladimir Putin will hear this, that the American President, Donald Trump, and the American people will hear this, that everyone will hear this.

我希望今天许多俄罗斯人会听到这个，弗拉基米尔·普京会听到这个，美国总统唐纳德·特朗普和美国人民会听到这个，每个人都会听到这个。

And yes, Ukrainian language is important symbolically, but what is also important is that we understand each other well.

是的，乌克兰语言具有重要的象征意义，但同样重要的是我们能够很好地理解彼此。

For Donald Trump?

为了唐纳德·特朗普？

17:24 Is it important for Donald Trump whether I speak Russian or not?

我是否会说俄语对唐纳德·特朗普来说重要吗？

Yes, yes, yes.

是的，是的，是的。

17:28 Because unfortunately, and it hurts to admit, but I cannot speak or understand Ukrainian yet, so your wit, dynamism and your humanity will not come through as well and as quickly.

因为不幸的是，承认这一点很伤人，但我还不会说或听懂乌克兰语，所以你的智慧、活力和人性不会那么快地体现出来。

Remember, I need to wait for two to three seconds to hear it.

请记住，我需要等待两到三秒才能听到。

You have a great sense of humor, great stories.

你很有幽默感，有很棒的故事。

With an interpreter translating, I simply won’t see this, but I understand that it’s painful.

如果有口译员翻译，我根本看不到这一点，但我知道这很痛苦。

Another reason is that I hoped we could show that even though it is sometimes said that Russian is banned in Ukraine-

另一个原因是我希望我们能够表明，尽管有时有人说俄语在乌克兰是被禁止的——

This is not true.

这不是真的。

18:03 I’m speaking Russian now, right.

我现在说的是俄语，对吧。

We have people who speak Russian.

我们有人会说俄语。

This is not true.

这不是真的。

Really, it’s not.

真的，事实并非如此。

It’s really not true.

这确实不是真的。

We disrespect Russian now because of Russians.

因为俄罗斯人，我们现在不尊重俄罗斯人。

That’s all.

就这样。

When they were saving Russian speakers, they killed Russian speakers.

当他们拯救讲俄语的人时，他们杀死了讲俄语的人。

Many people who actually…

很多人实际上...

Many of whom are in the East, right.

其中许多人在东方，对吧。

They lived in the East.

他们住在东部。

They destroyed their houses, destroyed their lives.

他们摧毁了他们的房屋，摧毁了他们的生活。

It’s not a rhetorical thing.

这不是一个修辞的问题。

It’s not all talk and blah, blah, blah.

这并不全是空谈和废话、废话、废话。

I don’t have time for blah, blah, blah.

我没有时间废话、废话、废话。

18:38 Yes, so it’s a very, very, very important and sensitive moment.

是的，所以这是一个非常非常重要和敏感​​的时刻。

The message is that we are not one nation.

传达的信息是我们不是一个国家。

We are not the same country.

我们不是同一个国家。

We’re different countries.

我们是不同的国家。

Yes, different countries, and I think what is most important is what we’re talking about, not how we’re speaking about it.

是的，不同的国家，我认为最重要的是我们在谈论什么，而不是我们如何谈论它。

This is what I think.

我是这么想的。

You are a smart guy, so you have a lot of experience in dialogue of this kind.

你是个聪明人，所以你在这类对话方面有很多经验。

That’s why I think you will understand me.

这就是为什么我认为你会理解我的。

Yeah.

是的。

Anyway, I think it is far better for Donald Trump to hear my English, not my Russian.

不管怎样，我认为唐纳德·特朗普听我的英语比听我的俄语要好得多。

Your English is much better than my Ukrainian.

你的英语比我的乌克兰语好得多。

19:21 You’re getting better and better every day.

你每天都在变得越来越好。

That’s true.

这是真的。

19:25 I’m a very honest guy.

我是一个非常诚实的人。

That’s why I will be very honest with you.

这就是为什么我会对你非常诚实。

Okay.

好的。

Your Ukrainian is not very good, but we will work on it.

你的乌克兰语不是很好，但我们会努力的。

Yes.

是的。

19:36 I have many flaws, that’s one of them.

我有很多缺点，这就是其中之一。

Sometimes I can speak English.

有时我会说英语。

19:38 Sometimes as I understand, we can be very flexible, right?

有时候据我了解，我们可以非常灵活，对吧？

Very flexible.

非常灵活。

19:44 Spanish, Swahili.

西班牙语、斯瓦希里语。

Yeah.

是的。

19:47 You see?

你看？

Yeah.

是的。

You’re very flexible-

你很灵活——

Javier Milei needs to understand this, so…

哈维尔·米雷需要明白这一点，所以……

By the way, Javier understood me without any words.

顺便说一句，哈维尔无需言语就能理解我的意思。

The language of love, maybe.

也许是爱的语言。

Of respect.

出于尊重。

Respect.

尊重。

I respect him.

我尊重他。

19:58 I had a very good conversation with him.

我和他进行了非常愉快的交谈。

Really brilliant.

真的很棒。

May I sometimes speak Russian and sometimes English?

我可以有时说俄语，有时说英语吗？

Yeah, yes.

是的，是的。

20:05 You can use any language you like, and I think that’s a very good rule for this first meeting between us.

你可以使用任何你喜欢的语言，我认为这对于我们之间的第一次会面来说是一个非常好的规则。

As you said, maybe we will meet in the future for the second time.

正如你所说，也许将来我们还会再见面。

Second and third and fourth?

第二个、第三个、第四个？

Yeah, this is good.

是的，这很好。

20:17 You can ask questions in the language you’d like and I will answer in the language I can.

您可以用您喜欢的语言提问，我会用我能用的语言回答。

Well, you said you wanted to meet by the sea at some point, so for our next meeting, let’s meet by the sea.

嗯，你说你想在某个时候在海边见面，所以下次见面，我们就在海边见面吧。

With pleasure next time.

下次很高兴。

20:30 It would be much better to meet by our Ukrainian Black or our Azov Sea.

最好是在我们的乌克兰黑海或者我们的亚速海相遇。

I have traveled to many cities in Ukraine, but I have never been to Odessa and everyone tells me that, and I don’t know why.

我去过乌克兰的很多城市，但我从未去过敖德萨，每个人都这么告诉我，我也不知道为什么。

You have to.

你必须这样做。

Can you explain to me why everyone loves Odessa so much?

你能向我解释一下为什么每个人都这么喜欢敖德萨吗？

20:47 What’s there?

有什么？

What’s in Odessa?

敖德萨有什么？

20:54 That’s how they say it.

他们就是这么说的。

What’s there?

有什么？

In Odessa, we’ve got it all.

在敖德萨，我们拥有一切。

Okay.

好的。

Odessa.

敖德萨。

21:00 I love Odessa because of its particular temperament.

我喜欢敖德萨，因为它特殊的气质。

People have their own accent, and there are many nationalities.

人们有自己的口音，而且有很多国籍。

There are a lot of stories, authentic, Odessa cuisine.

这里有很多故事，地道的敖德萨美食。

By the way, the cuisine is very different from others.

顺便说一句，这里的美食与其他地方有很大不同。

The dishes are not like any other dishes and everything is very tasty.

这些菜肴与其他菜肴不同，而且一切都非常美味。

Also, there are beautiful people, and today, you understand people very well, especially after the attacks on Odessa.

此外，还有美丽的人，今天，你非常了解人们，尤其是在敖德萨袭击之后。

You understand what the people are like, just how Odessites are, very Ukrainian, and that’s very cool.

你了解这里的人是什么样的，敖德萨人是什么样的，非常乌克兰，这非常酷。

I love Odessa.

我爱敖德萨。

I go there several times a year.

我每年去那里几次。

I go there several times a year now because…

我现在每年去那里几次，因为……

Well, now because of strengthening of air defense systems, because of this grain corridor, et cetera.

嗯，现在是因为防空系统的加强，因为这条粮食走廊，等等。

I go there more often.

我去那里比较频繁。

They have the sun there.

他们那里有阳光。

They have the sea.

他们有海。

It’s Ukraine, and it’s very cool there.

这是乌克兰，那里非常酷。

Well, when you come and visit me in Texas as a guest for the third time-

好吧，当你第三次来德克萨斯州做客时——

With pleasure.

很高兴。

Let’s do this.

让我们这样做吧。

22:16 How about you, my friend Joe Rogan and I, we’ll go get some Texas barbecue together.

你怎么样，我和我的朋友乔·罗根，我们一起去吃德克萨斯烧烤。

Who will pay?

谁来付钱？

That’s a good question.

这是一个好问题。

Putin.

普京。

22:27 Putin for everything.

普京为一切。

He has to pay.

他必须付钱。

Well, yes.

嗯，是的。

22:31 We’ll invite him too.

我们也会邀请他。

No, no, no, no.

不，不，不，不。

Okay.

好的。

Without him.

没有他。

Okay, I get it.

好的，我明白了。

22:35 Understood.

明白了。

But if the Rome Statute will be accepted by your government before this moment.

但如果你们的政府在此之前接受《罗马规约》。

Okay.

好的。

22:46 By the way, I don’t know if you know this, but Joe has a great comedy club in Austin.

顺便说一句，我不知道你是否知道这一点，乔在奥斯汀有一个很棒的喜剧俱乐部。

Joe Rogan?

乔·罗根？

Joe Rogan, yes.

乔·罗根，是的。

22:53 And I think that as a person who respects comedy and stand-up comedy, it would be interesting for you to have a look at it.

我认为，作为一个尊重喜剧和单口喜剧的人，看一下它会很有趣。

No, no.

不，不。

23:00 He is, I know him and I saw a lot of different videos.

他是，我认识他，我看过很多不同的视频。

He’s a very talented person, so it would be a pleasure if you invite me and I’m able to do it.

他是一个非常有才华的人，所以如果你邀请我并且我能够做到，我会很高兴。

I am a little bit busy, but if I’ll be in the United States, I hope that I will have a conversation and a meeting with President Trump, and of course during my visit, if I’ll have the time, it would be a pleasure if you’ll invite me.

我有点忙，但是如果我在美国，我希望能与特朗普总统进行对话、会面，当然在我访问期间，如果我有时间，如果你能邀请我，我会很高兴。

With pleasure.

荣幸。

You know what?

你知道吗？

23:30 I will pay.

我会付钱的。

Good.

好的。

Yeah.

是的。

23:33 I had to think about it, but you are the President.

我必须考虑一下，但你是总统。

Yes, with you, with pleasure.

是的，和你在一起，很高兴。

When the war is over, please come.

战争结束后，请来吧。

Thanks so much.

非常感谢。

And when you’re less busy.

当你不那么忙的时候。

Thanks so much.

非常感谢。

If we can go back many years, World War II, tell me the story of your grandfather who fought in World War II.

如果我们可以回到很多年前，二战，请告诉我你祖父在二战中战斗的故事。

My grandfather, he graduated from the military academy, and from the very beginning of the war, he went to fight.

我的爷爷，他是军校毕业的，从战争一开始，他就去打仗。

23:52 He was in the infantry and he fought through the entire war.

他是步兵，参加了整场战争。

He had many wounds, as they used to say back then, “His chest is covered in medals,” and it’s true.

他身上有很多伤口，正如人们当时常说的那样，“他的胸口挂满了奖章”，这是事实。

He had more than 30?

他有超过30个？

Yes, more than 30.

是的，超过30个。

He was the kind of man…

他是那种人……

He was such a serious man.

他是一个非常严肃的人。

I loved him very much, and we had a very close relationship.

我非常爱他，我们的关系非常密切。

He didn’t like to tell details about the war.

他不愿意透露有关战争的细节。

He never boasted, although I asked him as a boy would, “How many fascists did you kill?” He never talked about it.

他从不吹牛，尽管我像个男孩一样问他：“你杀了多少法西斯分子？”他从来没有谈过这件事。

He believed that the war was a great tragedy.

他认为战争是一场巨大的悲剧。

A tragedy for everyone.

对每个人来说都是一场悲剧。

And Ukraine was occupied, and it was a tragedy for Ukraine, a tragedy for Europe, and a tragedy for the Jewish people.

乌克兰被占领，这对乌克兰来说是一场悲剧，对欧洲来说是一场悲剧，对犹太人来说也是一场悲剧。

25:10 His own brothers, his entire family were executed.

他自己的兄弟，他的全家都被处决了。

They were tortured by fascists who had occupied Ukraine and their village.

他们受到占领乌克兰及其村庄的法西斯分子的酷刑。

His father was the head of the village and he was killed.

他的父亲是村长，他被杀了。

They were shot.

他们被枪杀了。

It was a mass…

那是一场弥撒……

A mass grave, right?

集体坟墓，对吗？

Yes.

是的。

It was a communal burial.

这是一个公共墓葬。

Some of them were killed outright and others, they were buried alive.

他们中的一些人被直接杀害，另一些人则被活埋。

His four brothers, they all went to war.

他的四个兄弟，都参加了战争。

As soon as the war began, they were all there.

战争一开始，他们就都到了。

He was the only one who had a military education, and they all died in the war.

他是唯一受过军事教育的人，他们都死于战争。

He was the only one who came back.

他是唯一回来的人。

He had nobody.

他没有人。

He came back and he found my grandmother, his future wife, and she managed…

他回来后找到了我的祖母，他未来的妻子，她设法……

What was it called then?

当时叫什么？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

They don’t have them anymore.

他们不再拥有它们了。

It was a child care facility, an orphanage, so to speak, a place where orphans lived, children who don’t have parents, children of war.

这是一个托儿所，可以说是一个孤儿院，一个孤儿、没有父母的孩子、战争儿童居住的地方。

26:34 And she managed this child care facility with difficult children, as they used to call them, difficult children who went through the war, who saw their parents killed, and this is how they met, because these difficult children, they, well, sometimes behave differently.

她管理着这个托儿所，里面有困难的孩子，他们过去这么称呼他们，经历过战争的困难的孩子，他们看到他们的父母被杀，这就是他们相遇的方式，因为这些困难的孩子，他们，嗯，有时表现得不同。

They could steal something, do something bad.

他们可以偷东西，做坏事。

There were many, many children in the orphanage.

孤儿院里有很多很多的孩子。

Yes, that’s how she met my grandfather, and I loved him very much, and I think that my grandfather, frankly would never have believed that this war is possible.

是的，她就这样认识了我的祖父，我非常爱他，坦白地说，我认为我的祖父永远不会相信这场战争是可能的。

He would never have believed it because he worked in the police after the war.

他永远不会相信这一点，因为他战后在警察部门工作。

He was a colonel.

他是一名上校。

He worked in a criminal investigation all his life, so he fought with bandits all his life, after the Second World War, but also I believe he fought for justice all his life.

他一生从事刑侦工作，所以他一生与土匪战斗，二战后，但我相信他一生都在为正义而战。

And we all lived in one apartment, and even after his death, I lived with both of my grandmothers and my parents, two grandmothers who both lost their husbands.

我们都住在一套公寓里，即使在他去世后，我仍然和我的祖母和父母住在一起，这两位祖母都失去了丈夫。

Both of them died.

他们两人都死了。

28:05 Well, it was an ordinary family, an ordinary family that lived like everyone lived back then in the Soviet Union and even after the Soviet in the nineties, we lived in one apartment all together.

嗯，这是一个普通的家庭，一个普通的家庭，过着苏联时期每个人的生活，甚至在九十年代苏联解体后，我们都住在一间公寓里。

What else is there to say?

还有什么可说的呢？

But I think the most important thing was values, respect.

但我认为最重要的是价值观、尊重。

They gave me an education.

他们给了我教育。

My parents gave me an education, no one left me money or apartments, so I didn’t inherit anything material.

我的父母给了我教育，没有人给我留下钱或房子，所以我没有继承任何物质。

But I believe that our real inheritance is here, in our minds and in our hearts.

但我相信，我们真正的遗产就在这里，在我们的头脑里，在我们的心里。

I believe that.

我相信这一点。

Understood.

明白了。

There’s just a one-second delay, so if…

只有一秒钟的延迟，所以如果……

28:47 I’m sorry, if you-

对不起，如果你-

It’s fine.

没关系。

…

……

28:59 tell a joke, I will laugh about one, two or three seconds later.

讲一个笑话，大约一、两、三秒后我就会笑。

There’s a delay.

有延迟。

So ordinary family, but not an ordinary time.

如此平凡的家庭，却不平凡的时光。

World War II.

第二次世界大战。

Speaking of mass graves, I was at Babyn Yar yesterday.

说到万人坑，我昨天在巴宾亚尔。

A large part of my family died there.

我的大部分家人都死在那里。

In moments like this, such a place serves as a stark reminder of the profound historical gravity of the Second World War.

在这样的时刻，这样的地方鲜明地提醒人们第二次世界大战的深刻历史严重性。

I remember this song from my youth, “On June 22nd at four o’clock, Kyiv was bombed and the war began.” I always wondered how it would feel to live in a moment when everything changed.

我记得小时候唱过这首歌：“6月22日凌晨四点，基辅遭到轰炸，战争开始了。”我总是想知道生活在一切都改变的时刻会是什么感觉。

The path of humanity completely shifts in a single moment just like that.

人类的道路就这样在一瞬间彻底转变。

What do you think about that moment in 1941 now, after the 2022 invasion, how do you perceive the Second World War after you have witnessed all of it?

现在，在 2022 年入侵之后，您对 1941 年的那一刻有何看法？在您目睹了这一切之后，您如何看待第二次世界大战？

Well, firstly, the war actually started earlier.

嗯，首先，战争实际上开始得更早。

30:05 It started here in Ukraine.

它始于乌克兰。

Kyiv was bombed as you quoted, but the war had already begun before that.

正如您引用的那样，基辅遭到轰炸，但战争在此之前就已经开始了。

And I think I perceived it as a start of the full-scale invasion.

我想我认为这是全面入侵的开始。

Well, I think it’s hard to understand why nobody wants to listen, look at and analyze history.

嗯，我认为很难理解为什么没有人愿意倾听、观察和分析历史。

War, the rise of fascism and Nazism, the emergence of Hitler, Goebbels, and their entire team at the time, this wasn’t just about one party or even one country.

战争，法西斯主义和纳粹主义的兴起，希特勒、戈培尔以及他们当时的整个团队的出现，这不仅仅是一个政党甚至一个国家的问题。

It was essentially a wave.

这本质上是一波浪潮。

A wave of hatred, a wave of one race, one race above the rest.

仇恨的浪潮，一个种族的浪潮，一个高于其他种族的浪潮。

31:17 They were in fact constructing and ultimately implemented a theory around this idea later seizing Europe.

事实上，他们正在围绕这个想法构建并最终实施了一种理论，后来占领了欧洲。

They created a theory of one nation, one race, one world, their world.

他们创造了一种关于一个国家、一个种族、一个世界、他们的世界的理论。

Of course, this idea is absolutely senseless, but it has become radicalized over the years and even gained support.

当然，这种想法绝对是毫无意义的，但多年来它已经变得激进，甚至获得了支持。

A vision of one world and in principle, the so-called Russian World, the ideology Putin promotes and imposes, it wasn’t originally like that.

一个世界的愿景，原则上，即所谓的俄罗斯世界，普京提倡和强加的意识形态，最初并不是这样的。

He was a different person back then, or maybe he was always like this, but his rhetoric was different.

那时的他已经是另外一个人了，或许他一直都是这样，但他的言辞却不同了。

At the beginning, remember, he talked about the EU, and-

请记住，一开始他谈到了欧盟，并且-

32:00 At the beginning, remember he talked about the EU and even about Russia’s future being tied to NATO.

请记住，一开始他谈到了欧盟，甚至谈到了俄罗斯的未来与北约的联系。

There were even talks of joining the European Union, NATO.

甚至有关于加入欧盟和北约的讨论。

He spoke about shared values with the West.

他谈到了与西方的共同价值观。

That’s how it all sounded back then.

这就是当时的感觉。

We must also look at Hitler, who was seriously…

我们还必须看看希特勒，他很认真……

Before the radical idea of taking over the whole world, he actually made certain steps and everyone believed he was helping the economy.

在接管整个世界的激进想法之前，他实际上采取了某些步骤，每个人都相信他正在帮助经济。

And to be fair, he did take some steps in that direction but he was a terrifying person.

公平地说，他确实朝这个方向采取了一些步骤，但他是一个可怕的人。

None of those actions justify him, nor do they excuse his actions and that’s why we cannot look at the Second World War as if it started in 1939.

这些行为都不能证明他是正当的，也不能为他的行为辩解，这就是为什么我们不能把第二次世界大战视为 1939 年开始的原因。

It didn’t begin in 1941 either.

它也不是从 1941 年开始的。

We need to draw conclusions.

我们需要得出结论。

When did it start?

什么时候开始的？

With the weaknesses of the world?

世界的弱点？

The division of European states, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

欧洲国家的分裂，莫洛托夫-里宾特洛甫条约。

All of this happened before 1941.

这一切都发生在1941年之前。

People who were more informed, those who dug deeper, whether they were politicians or not, whether they were from different walks of life including business, which was different back then, we’re speaking about all of this.

那些消息灵通的人，那些挖掘得更深的人，无论他们是否是政治家，无论他们来自不同的行业，包括商界，这在当时是不同的，我们正在谈论所有这些。

33:26 Hitler won’t stop.

希特勒不会停下来。

There’ll be a world war.

将会有一场世界大战。

Hitler will destroy nations, nations, and that’s what happened.

希特勒将摧毁国家、国家，这就是发生的事情。

Someone looked the other way.

有人看向另一个方向。

What I told you about.

我告诉你的事情。

Europe was sinking then, I gave you an example of it but the whole world looked the other way and didn’t pay attention and said, no, we can negotiate with him.

当时欧洲正在下沉，我给你举了一个例子，但全世界都视而不见，没有注意，说，不，我们可以和他谈判。

I’m telling you he’s okay.

我告诉你他没事。

We can negotiate with him.

我们可以和他谈判。

He’s just more right leaning, or it does not matter what they said.

他只是更右倾，或者他们说什么并不重要。

He’s just very pro nationalist.

他只是非常支持民族主义者。

This is all nonsense and this is not the first time and Hitler isn’t the first such case in history.

这都是无稽之谈，这不是第一次，希特勒也不是历史上第一个这样的例子。

We’re dealing with a person who is allowed to stick to this desire to destroy.

我们面对的是一个被允许坚持破坏欲望的人。

He was consumed by it and enjoying it.

他沉浸其中并享受其中。

And what happened to Hitler?

希特勒怎么了？

34:31 Now, what about Putin?

现在，普京呢？

This invasion was also at around four in the morning.

这次入侵也是在凌晨四点左右。

There were missile strikes on Ukraine.

乌克兰遭到导弹袭击。

This is the same.

这也是一样的。

I believe that intentions are also the same but more on that later.

我相信意图也是一样的，但稍后会详细介绍。

By the way, you tell me if this is too long, you can stop me.

顺便说一句，你告诉我，如果这太长了，你可以阻止我。

Never long enough.

永远不够长。

34:53 It’s beautiful.

很美丽。

Okay, so it happened here around four in the morning.

好吧，事情发生在凌晨四点左右。

34:55 Before this, I must honestly say everyone said something, predicted something, et cetera but I asked only for one thing primarily from the United States, if you are sure, if you have the evidence, if you talk to him and he tells you that there’ll be an invasion, if all this scares you, I only asked for two things.

在此之前，我必须诚实地说，每个人都说过一些话，预测过一些话，等等，但我只要求一件事，主要来自美国，如果你确定，如果你有证据，如果你和他交谈，他告诉你将会有入侵，如果这一切让你害怕，我只要求两件事。

Send us weapons or better yet, strengthen us with preventive measures so there would be no war.

给我们提供武器，或者更好的是，通过预防措施加强我们的力量，这样就不会发生战争。

It wasn’t the weapons that I was asking for.

这不是我要的武器。

I asked for sanctions.

我要求制裁。

Intimidate him.

恐吓他。

Please don’t say that if he comes, if he crosses borders, if he kills, we are imposing sanctions.

请不要说，如果他来了，如果他越界，如果他杀人，我们就会实施制裁。

Well, this is complete bullshit.

好吧，这完全是胡说八道。

Sorry but really.

抱歉但是真的。

Oh, I understand this.

哦，我明白了。

Oh, wonderful.

哦，太棒了。

35:54 Yes.

是的。

I understood one word.

我听懂了一个词。

Yeah.

是的。

So, they did not help.

所以，他们没有帮忙。

I believe that no and this is a fact.

我相信不会，这是事实。

36:02 We didn’t receive help.

我们没有得到帮助。

If we assume that words are help, well then yes, we received a lot of it because there were plenty of words.

如果我们假设言语是有帮助的，那么是的，我们收到了很多帮助，因为有很多言语。

Even more than plenty, yes.

甚至更多，是的。

At four in the morning there were strikes.

凌晨四点，罢工发生了。

Morally, is it possible to prepare for war?

从道义上讲，有可能为战争做好准备吗？

No.

不。

It doesn’t happen like you read in books, see in movies and so on.

它不会像你在书上读到的、在电影中看到的那样发生。

What happens to you?

你怎么了？

I was just looking at my wife and children.

我只是看着我的妻子和孩子。

My children were asleep but my wife was awake.

我的孩子们已经睡着了，但我的妻子还醒着。

There were strikes, missile strikes.

有罢工、导弹袭击。

We heard them.

我们听到了他们的声音。

To you as a living person, how can this be?

对于你这个活生生的人来说，怎么会这样呢？

You just can’t fully believe this.

你只是不能完全相信这一点。

You just don’t understand.

你只是不明白。

Why now, given everything that happened in World War II when millions of people died?

鉴于二战期间数百万人死亡所发生的一切，为什么现在呢？

None of it mattered still at four in the morning around 4:00, 3:40, 3:45.

凌晨四点左右，4:00、3:40、3:45，一切都不再重要。

Remember, around this time?

记得，大约在这个时候吗？

Yes, there were missile strikes and later.

是的，有导弹袭击以及后来的袭击。

37:27 By the way, a few days after the first days of the war, I spoke with Lukashenko on the phone and he apologized and he said that it was not me.

顺便说一句，战争开始几天后，我与卢卡申科通了电话，他道歉了，并说那不是我。

Missiles were launched from my territory and Putin was the one launching them.

导弹是从我的领土上发射的，而发射导弹的是普京。

These are his words.

这是他的话。

“I have witnesses and I apologize,” he said.

“我有证人，我道歉，”他说。

But believe me, that’s what he told me.

但请相信我，这就是他告诉我的。

“Volodymyr, this is not me.

“弗拉基米尔，这不是我。

I’m not in charge,” he told me, “I’m not in charge.

我不负责，”他告诉我，“我不负责。

These are just missiles.

这些只是导弹。

This is Putin.” I told him, “Don’t do that.” This was done without me.

这是普京。”我告诉他：“不要那样做。”这是在没有我的情况下完成的。

That’s it.

就是这样。

On the phone, I remember this conversation.

在电话里，我记得这段对话。

I told him, “You are a murderer too, I’m just saying.” He told me, “You must understand, you can’t fight the Russians.” I told him that we never fought them.

我告诉他：“我只是说，你也是杀人犯。”他告诉我，“你必须明白，你无法与俄罗斯人作战。”我告诉他我们从未与他们战斗过。

I said, “It’s war.

我说：“这是战争。

The missiles came from your land, from Belarus.

导弹来自你们的土地，来自白俄罗斯。

How did you allow this?” Then he replied, “All right, retaliate then.” I still remember him telling me, “Hit the refinery.

你怎么允许这样的事发生？”然后他回答道：“好吧，那就报复吧。”我仍然记得他告诉我：“去炼油厂。

You know how much I care about it.” Mozyr Oil Refinery, is that it?

你知道我有多关心它。”莫济里炼油厂，是吗？

Can’t recall.

记不清了。

Mozyr Oil Refinery.

莫济里炼油厂。

I told him, “What are you on about?

我告诉他：“你在说什么？

What retaliation?”

什么报复？”

Forgive me, Volodymyr.

原谅我，弗拉基米尔。

Yes.

是的。

This was at five in the morning?

这是凌晨五点？

No, no, no.

不，不，不。

39:06 This was during the first or maybe the second day.

这是第一天或者第二天。

Second or third day of the war.

战争的第二天或第三天。

Ah, I see.

啊，我明白了。

After that I went back home.

之后我就回家了。

39:12 I was home with my children, with my wife.

我和我的孩子、我的妻子一起在家。

I just went to my wife very quickly that night at four o’clock and just told her, “Get the children, get ready.

那天晚上四点，我很快就去找我的妻子，告诉她：“带上孩子们，做好准备。

You’ll probably need to go to my office very soon.” And I left.

你可能很快就需要去我的办公室。”然后我就离开了。

That’s it.

就是这样。

At this moment, you are no longer a father.

这一刻，你不再是父亲。

What happened to me, unfortunately, because I believe that this is, and not only do I believe I understand, especially now, that all of this is the most important thing because your country is your family.

不幸的是，发生在我身上的事情是因为我相信，而且我不仅相信我理解，尤其是现在，所有这一切都是最重要的，因为你的国家就是你的家庭。

The strength is in your family and this is the most important thing.

力量在于你的家庭，这是最重要的。

I’m the president and therefore, I had to stop being a father in my own family.

我是总统，因此，我必须停止在自己的家庭中担任父亲。

And my wife had to do everything…

而我的妻子必须做一切……

She had to do everything regarding children, regarding safety and I had to deal with the state because I’m the president and this is my duty.

她必须做有关儿童、安全的一切事情，而我必须与国家打交道，因为我是总统，这是我的职责。

And I, by the way, am taking this very seriously.

顺便说一句，我非常认真地对待这件事。

I went to the office and here we are now.

我去了办公室，现在我们到了。

You’re very welcome.

非常不客气。

Well, at that moment on February 24th, 2022, everything changed again.

那么，2022年2月24日那一刻，一切又改变了。

40:31 Just like in June 1941, everything changed and history took a turn.

就像1941年6月一样，一切都改变了，历史发生了转折。

The history of humanity took a turn and for you too, you were the president.

人类的历史发生了转变，对你来说，你也是总统。

You were talking about fighting corruption, about the country’s freedom, about interesting and innovative reforms but that morning of February 22nd, everything changed.

你们谈论的是打击腐败、国家自由、有趣和创新的改革，但 2 月 22 日的早上，一切都变了。

Could you tell me about that morning, the details of your actions when you had to quickly make difficult decisions?

你能告诉我那天早上你必须迅速做出艰难决定时的行动细节吗？

What was the process for you?

您的流程是怎样的？

How did you make these decisions?

你是如何做出这些决定的？

Did you discuss them with people you trust to understand how to respond to this invasion in every technical, political and military aspect?

您是否与您信任的人讨论过这些问题，以了解如何在技术、政治和军事的各个方面应对这次入侵？

What was the process for you?

您的流程是怎样的？

How did you make the decision?

你是如何做出决定的？

According to our legislation, in principle, I am the supreme commander of the Armed forces of Ukraine, so I had to give corresponding orders.

根据我们的立法，原则上，我是乌克兰武装部队的最高指挥官，所以我必须发出相应的命令。

41:34 Yes, I have a military office and then later there was a military headquarters where all key people gathered.

是的，我有一个军事办公室，后来有一个军事总部，所有关键人物都聚集在那里。

This is not only about the military, it’s about energy, et cetera, all key things.

这不仅关系到军事，还关系到能源等等，所有关键的事情。

But at that moment, I made the decisions quickly and without a doubt and I cannot say that I am just that kind of person.

但那一刻我很快就做出了决定，而且毫无疑问，我不能说我就是那样的人。

I’m just a living person who believed that if help is needed right now to help, to help evacuate people, help with children.

我只是一个活着的人，我相信如果现在需要帮助，就应该帮助疏散人员，帮助照顾孩子。

Several cities were blocked.

多个城市被封锁。

I was only thinking about how to deliver food there within a day.

我只想着如何在一天之内将食物送到那里。

We did a lot of things, although we understood that they in fact occupy part of our state.

我们做了很多事情，尽管我们知道它们实际上占据了我们州的一部分。

42:43 We distributed weapons to people, that’s how it was.

我们向人们分发武器，就是这样。

Trucks came and simply distributed weapons to people so that they could defend the capital, to ordinary people just on the street, to ordinary people who understood that if the Russians entered a city, then we would have the same thing that’s happening in other cities per the information we received.

卡车来了，只是向人们分发武器，以便他们能够保卫首都，向街上的普通民众分发武器，向那些明白如果俄罗斯人进入一座城市的普通民众分发武器，那么根据我们收到的信息，我们也会在其他城市发生同样的事情。

Thanks to digitalization, by the way, we had very good digitalization before this.

顺便说一句，得益于数字化，我们在此之前已经有了非常好的数字化。

We preserved a lot and even when they were surrounding certain cities, a lot of things still worked.

我们保留了很多，即使它们包围了某些城市，很多东西仍然有效。

The banking system, the internet, we had television, and thanks to this, I made several decisions to ensure that people are united and have all the information.

银行系统、互联网、我们有电视，正因为如此，我做出了几项决定，以确保人们团结起来并拥有所有信息。

Russia is very good at spreading large scale disinformation.

俄罗斯非常擅长大规模传播虚假信息。

Fortunately, I have two decades of experience managing a production studio, TV channels and large media resources.

幸运的是，我拥有二十年管理制作工作室、电视频道和大型媒体资源的经验。

I understood that we needed to build an information network very quickly.

我明白我们需要很快建立一个信息网络。

44:08 Thanks to this, I began to address the people constantly.

正因为如此，我开始不断地向人们讲话。

This happened several times, three to five times a day.

这样的情况发生了好几次，一天三到五次。

In fact, I became an information source for people who were in cities that were cut off from other information and it was very important for me to keep all things digital, to keep the internet, to stay in touch with everyone with all the people.

事实上，我成为了那些生活在与其他信息隔绝的城市的人们的信息来源，对我来说，保持所有事物的数字化、保持互联网、与所有人保持联系非常重要。

Initially, that’s the contact we had and then we also built a media platform where we had all the news agencies of Ukraine and this network was called Marathon.

最初，这就是我们的联系方式，然后我们还建立了一个媒体平台，其中有乌克兰所有的新闻机构，这个网络被称为马拉松。

It was also very important for the people to trust us and people had to receive information.

人们信任我们也非常重要，人们必须接收信息。

Why?

为什么？

There were waves of Russian on the first day who said he ran away.

第一天就有一波俄罗斯人说他逃跑了。

I had to go out into the street, I left the office and went outside.

我不得不走到街上，我离开办公室走到外面。

I had to do this because I was showing that this was no green screen to show that it was the street, not some digital manipulation.

我必须这样做，因为我要展示这不是绿屏来表明这是街道，而不是某种数字操纵。

45:25 I did these things.

我做了这些事。

Then I touched various objects.

然后我触摸了各种物体。

Now, people might think that these are small things, but I was actually showing that I was in a real place.

现在，人们可能认为这些都是小事，但我实际上是在展示我在一个真实的地方。

All of this had an impact.

所有这些都产生了影响。

I was absolutely sure of my actions.

我对自己的行为绝对有把握。

And these contacts, several contacts and then I spoke to the Russians, I addressed Russians, I really did, and then only after that I gathered…

这些接触，几次接触，然后我与俄罗斯人交谈，我向俄罗斯人讲话，我确实这样做了，然后只有在那之后我才聚集......

It was the first day when I invited all of the journalists here, wasn’t it?

这是我第一天邀请所有记者来的，不是吗？

That was on the first day, I think.

我想那是第一天。

Well, not here, to the press center in this building.

好吧，不在这里，到这座大楼的新闻中心。

I talked to journalists.

我和记者交谈过。

I asked them not to leave because we needed weapons.

我请他们不要离开，因为我们需要武器。

At that moment, they were handing out rifles to people and for me, journalists and media platforms were essential voices.

那时，他们正在向人们分发步枪，对我来说，记者和媒体平台是重要的声音。

46:22 There were various journalists from different countries here and they were essentially stuck and I asked them for contacts, those who had access to Russians, Belarusians, Kazakhs who understood everything, the same information, and I spoke to them and I spoke to them and spoke in Russian.

这里有来自不同国家的各种记者，他们基本上陷入了困境，我向他们询问了联系方式，那些可以接触到俄罗斯人、白俄罗斯人、哈萨克人的人，他们了解一切，了解相同的信息，我和他们交谈，并用俄语交谈。

I told them, “You must stop Putin.

我告诉他们，“你们必须阻止普京。

This is terrible.

这太可怕了。

This is horror.

这太恐怖了。

This is war.

这是战争。

You must stop him.

你必须阻止他。

And if you stand up now, if you speak out and if you go out into the streets…” This was very important.

如果你现在站起来，如果你大声疾呼，如果你走上街头……”这非常重要。

I spoke to them in Russian to show them that there was no problem and that all of these pretexts were made up.

我用俄语与他们交谈，向他们表明没有问题，所有这些借口都是编造的。

This is why it’s so painful to talk about the Russian language too because look, if a person does not want to listen, they will not listen no matter what language we speak.

这就是为什么谈论俄语也如此痛苦，因为看，如果一个人不想听，那么无论我们说什么语言，他们都不会听。

I disagree with you here.

我在这里不同意你的观点。

47:19 I think and hope that many people in Russia will hear us today.

我认为并希望今天俄罗斯的许多人都能听到我们的声音。

They blocked YouTube recently.

他们最近屏蔽了 YouTube。

47:27 Are you aware of this?

你知道这一点吗？

In their country.

在他们的国家。

I know.

我知道。

47:32 I simply guarantee that this conversation will travel fast on the internet.

我只是保证这次谈话会在互联网上快速传播。

Everyone will hear you.

每个人都会听到你的声音。

They will hear you, including the president of Russia will hear you.

他们会听到你的声音，包括俄罗斯总统也会听到你的声音。

This is why I have hope.

这就是为什么我有希望。

He is actually deaf.

他实际上是聋子。

47:46 Even if he speaks to you, he is deaf by his very nature.

即使他对你说话，他本质上也是聋子。

Do you understand the difference?

你明白其中的区别吗？

For instance, when you talk to Musk, you are talking to an innovator, a scientist about rockets.

例如，当你与马斯克交谈时，你正在与一位创新者、一位关于火箭的科学家交谈。

You talk about how to save on costs and how they land.

您谈到了如何节省成本以及成本如何落地。

On the other hand, Putin doesn’t launch rockets to save money but to kill people.

另一方面，普京发射火箭不是为了省钱，而是为了杀人。

Do you think you can talk to Putin about technology?

您认为您可以与普京谈论技术吗？

Your guys were interviewing him and he told them about tribal history.

你们的人正在采访他，他向他们讲述了部落的历史。

Do you understand?

你明白吗？

Imagine a Russian man in his country listening to him.

想象一下，一个俄罗斯人在他的国家听他说话。

You know what Musk is about, technology, Mars, artificial intelligence.

你知道马斯克是关于什么的，技术、火星、人工智能。

And this guy Putin is standing there bare-assed pontificating about tribes.

而普京这个家伙光着屁股站在那里，对部落大肆武断。

You’ve got to understand, you think that when you do interviews like Mr. Tucker who did an interview there that you’re about to make them friends.

你必须明白，你认为当你像塔克先生那样接受采访时，你就会让他们成为朋友。

What does this have to do with friends?

这和朋友有什么关系？

He is different.

他是不同的。

He’s simply different.

他就是与众不同。

But it’s still necessary.

但这仍然是必要的。

A mammoth stands before you.

一头猛犸象站在你面前。

By the way, I must say that when you said bare-assed, it was not translated.

顺便说一句，我必须说，当你说“bare-assed”时，它没有被翻译。

49:13 Could the interpreter please translate?

请翻译人员翻译一下吗？

This is so that you can understand.

这是为了让您能够理解。

Now he explained everything to me, I understand.

现在他向我解释了一切，我明白了。

Yeah, that’s great.

是的，那太好了。

Now I fully understand.

现在我完全明白了。

That’s great.

那太棒了。

Anyway, but we still need to talk.

无论如何，但我们仍然需要谈谈。

One should always speak with someone who listens and you must speak when you know that this will benefit you bring peace and calm to the world, not the other way around.

一个人应该总是与倾听的人交谈，当你知道这将有利于你给世界带来和平与平静时，你必须说话，而不是相反。

49:28 I love President Trump’s message.

我喜欢特朗普总统的信息。

When he speaks, I think that we share a position on peace through strength.

当他讲话时，我认为我们在通过实力实现和平方面有着共同的立场。

That is very important.

这非常重要。

It means that if you are strong, you can speak.

意思是说，只要你有实力，你就能说话。

And we need to be strong and Ukraine has to be strong enough, otherwise what for?

我们需要强大，乌克兰也必须足够强大，否则做什么？

Like Voldemort who must not be named.

就像伏地魔一样，他的名字不能被提及。

Yes, he’s like Voldemort.

是的，他就像伏地魔。

He thrives subsists and lives on being subjectivized instead of isolation.

他靠主观化而不是孤立而生存和生活。

He has offered to step out into the light.

他主动提出要走向光明。

He is darkness personified and you offer him, as it were, to be subjectivized.

他是黑暗的化身，而你可以说让他主观化。

50:40 Why?

为什么？

There’s only one reason, fear.

原因只有一个，那就是恐惧。

And you say we need to talk.

你说我们需要谈谈。

Listen, we need to be in a strong position and not talk but end the war.

听着，我们需要处于强势地位，不要空谈，而要结束战争。

Yes, it is possible through dialogue.

是的，通过对话是可能的。

We’re not opposed to it.

我们并不反对。

You just need to be in a strong position to make the other person want it.

你只需要处于强势地位就能让对方想要它。

Do you think he wants to end the war?

你认为他想结束战争吗？

That’s what you suggested.

这就是你的建议。

I think this is naive.

我认为这很天真。

I’m sorry.

对不起。

With all due respect, it’s naive to think he wants to finish the war.

恕我直言，认为他想结束战争的想法是天真的。

Tell you what-

告诉你什么-

The circumstances…

情况……

51:22 Sorry for interrupting.

抱歉打扰了。

There’s something we need.

有一些我们需要的东西。

I think that President Trump not only has will, he has all these possibilities and it’s not just talk.

我认为特朗普总统不仅有意愿，他还有所有这些可能性，而这不仅仅是说说而已。

I really count on him and I think that our people really count on him.

我真的很信赖他，我认为我们的人民也真的很信赖他。

He has enough power to pressure Putin not into wanting to stop it.

他有足够的权力迫使普京不要阻止它。

No, he will not want to.

不，他不会想要的。

To pressure him to actually stop it, that is the difference.

迫使他真正停止这件事，这就是区别。

Don’t rely on Putin’s will to stop.

不要依赖普京的意志来阻止。

You won’t see it.

你不会看到它。

That’s what I think.

我就是这么想的。

Sorry.

对不起。

No, sorry.

不，抱歉。

52:04 I interrupted you first.

是我先打断你的。

I do have what some might call a naive dream of you sitting down with Putin and Trump and negotiating a deal about a ceasefire and together, finding a path to long-term peace.

我确实有一些人可能称之为天真的梦想，即你与普京和特朗普坐下来谈判一项停火协议，并共同寻找一条通往长期和平的道路。

I think this requires strength, requires negotiations.

我觉得这需要实力，需要谈判。

There are a lot of carrots and sticks here that can be used to make a real deal.

这里有很多胡萝卜加大棒可以用来达成真正的交易。

Trump is very keen on making a deal and ready to negotiate.

特朗普非常热衷于达成协议并准备进行谈判。

Can I ask you a question?

我可以问你一个问题吗？

Yeah.

是的。

I just really want you and I to be on the same page.

我真的希望你和我意见一致。

52:44 It’s very important to be in the same information space.

处于同一信息空间中非常重要。

Extremely important.

极其重要。

Let’s talk a bit about the ceasefire.

我们来谈谈停火。

Let me describe the situation to you.

让我向您描述一下情况。

In December 2019 in Normandy, in Paris at the Elysee Palace, Macron, Merkel, Putin and I agreed on the ceasefire.

2019 年 12 月，在诺曼底、巴黎爱丽舍宫，马克龙、默克尔、普京和我就停火达成一致。

The U.S. wasn’t there and this, by the way, was a weak point of the meeting.

美国没有出席，顺便说一句，这是会议的一个弱点。

If you’d like, we can later discuss why they weren’t there.

如果您愿意，我们可以稍后讨论他们不在那里的原因。

It’s a security guarantee thing in general.

一般来说，这是一个安全保证的事情。

It’s Germany’s position, et cetera.

这是德国的立场等等。

We agreed on an exchange of hostages, an all for all exchange.

我们商定交换人质，全面交换。

We made a deal to exchange everyone for everyone, I think you know that.

我们达成了一项协议，用每个人交换每个人，我想你知道这一点。

There was also a meeting that lasted many hours, a meeting where we made a deal with him.

还有一次持续了好几个小时的会议，我们和他达成了协议。

Everyone was tired.

每个人都累了。

It was just the two of us in the end and I proposed a ceasefire.

最后只有我们两个人，我提议停火。

By the way, no one in Ukraine believed.

顺便说一句，乌克兰没有人相信这一点。

Few believed in the ceasefire and he wanted troop withdrawal.

很少有人相信停火，他希望撤军。

54:05 I calculated that if there were a withdrawal of troops from the line of contact the way Russians proposed, it would take 20 years.

我算了一下，如果按照俄罗斯提议的方式从接触线撤军，需要20年的时间。

I proved it to him just in terms of time, square kilometers, namely the length of the line of contact or delimitation line, and we agreed on what I told him that it will not work out but I had many points because I was deeply involved in the issue.

我只是用时间、平方公里，即接触线或分界线的长度向他证明了这一点，我们同意我告诉他的事情，这不会成功，但我有很多观点，因为我深入参与了这个问题。

I was involved very deeply.

我参与得很深。

It’s my thing in general.

总的来说，这是我的事。

If I start doing something, I can’t stand there like that guy I spoke about with my ass out.

如果我开始做某事，我就不能像我所说的那个人一样站在那里。

I must be dressed.

我必须穿好衣服。

I must be prepared.

我必须做好准备。

I must be prepared better, better than anyone in front of me.

我必须做好更好的准备，比我前面的任何人都更好。

You do sports, right?

你做运动，对吧？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I practiced for many years and we know what fights are like what boxing is, what Thai boxing is.

我练习了很多年，我们知道什么是拳击，什么是泰拳。

55:00 This is what I did and I loved it very much.

这就是我所做的，我非常喜欢它。

When you step into the ring, you understand everything pretty much, and so I stepped into it and I was definitely well-prepared but he wasn’t, no.

当你踏入擂台时，你就会明白一切，所以我踏入擂台，我肯定已经做好了充分的准备，但他没有，不。

He was not deeply involved in the process.

他并没有深入参与这个过程。

What border?

什么边界？

Where is it?

它在哪里？

How long will it take to disengage troops?

需要多长时间才能脱离军队？

Why wasn’t he involved you want to know?

你想知道为什么他没有参与其中？

Because he wasn’t going to do any of this.

因为他不会做任何这些事。

This is what confused me.

这就是让我困惑的地方。

If you are not deeply involved in the issue, it’s as if you don’t really need the result.

如果你不深入参与这个问题，就好像你并不真正需要结果一样。

That’s what I think.

我就是这么想的。

So, what happened?

那么，发生了什么？

We agreed that there will be gas continuation, gas transit in 2019.

我们同意2019年将继续进行天然气输送、天然气运输。

We agreed with him.

我们同意他的观点。

This was the security for Europe.

这就是欧洲的安全。

Merkel asked me for it and this was extremely important for Germany.

默克尔向我要了这个，这对德国来说极其重要。

We agreed with him.

我们同意他的观点。

For him it was just money.

对他来说，这只是钱。

56:21 Secondly, we agreed on an exchange.

其次，我们同意交换。

For me, this was the most important thing.

对我来说，这是最重要的事情。

For them, gas was.

对他们来说，天然气就是。

For me, was the people and this is a fact because I wanted to have a humanitarian advantage so that there would be further meetings that would lead to sustained peace.

对我来说，人民是人民，这是事实，因为我希望拥有人道主义优势，以便举行更多会议，从而实现持久和平。

And third, ceasefire.

第三，停火。

Ceasefire, you spoke about.

你谈到了停火。

What happened?

发生了什么？

The gas contract was signed because he needed it.

天然气合同是因为他需要而签订的。

And by the way, he knew everything about it.

顺便说一句，他知道这一切。

As for exchange, we took the first step and exchanged the people.

至于交换，我们迈出了第一步，交换了人员。

Regarding the ceasefire, well, they started killing us in about a month, so I called him and I told him, “We agreed on a ceasefire, didn’t we?” Well, it wasn’t a piece of toilet paper, was it?

关于停火，大约一个月后他们就开始屠杀我们，所以我打电话给他，告诉他，“我们同意停火，不是吗？”嗯，这不是一张卫生纸，不是吗？

This is serious business or so it seemed.

这是一件严肃的事情，至少看起来是这样。

It really was serious.

事情确实很严重。

“Merkel, Macron, you and I, we all agreed on this together.

“默克尔、马克龙、你和我，我们都一致同意这一点。

A ceasefire is important, isn’t it?”

停火很重要，不是吗？”

57:43 Not for New Year’s because everyone was celebrating New Year’s.

不是为了新年，因为每个人都在庆祝新年。

And now, they’re offering us a Christmas ceasefire.

现在，他们向我们提出圣诞节停火。

It’s all the same.

都是一样的。

A ceasefire for two, three days just to get some praise but this isn’t a performance.

停火两三天只是为了获得一些赞扬，但这不是表演。

This isn’t some kind of theater.

这不是某种剧院。

No, this is about people’s lives and that’s what happened.

不，这关系到人们的生活，这就是发生的事情。

After that, I called him a few more times.

之后我又给他打了几次电话。

I think I only had two, three calls with him in total.

我想我总共只和他打过两三个电话。

I asked him for a ceasefire.

我请求他停火。

He told me it couldn’t be.

他告诉我不可能。

We will figure it out now.

我们现在就弄清楚。

People from the occupied territory, Russians and separatists, they were all there together.

来自被占领土的人们、俄罗斯人和分离主义者，他们都在一起。

They continued to shoot and kill our people.

他们继续射杀我们的人民。

Yes, the front lines were quiet but they killed people.

是的，前线很安静，但他们却杀人。

They were killing people and I kept calling him.

他们在杀人，我一直给他打电话。

58:35 I called again and again, but there was nothing until after a few months the Russians stopped answering the phone.

我一次又一次地打电话，但没有任何消息，直到几个月后，俄罗斯人不再接听电话。

We did not have any contact since.

从那以后我们就没有任何联系了。

I wanted another meeting like we had in Normandy.

我想要再次像我们在诺曼底那样的会议。

I wanted the next meeting.

我想要下次会议。

I wanted to find a solution but the Russians refused.

我想找到解决办法，但俄罗斯人拒绝了。

We tried to make it happen through various European countries and not only European, but the Russians refused.

我们试图通过欧洲各个国家（不仅仅是欧洲国家）来实现这一目标，但俄罗斯人拒绝了。

They passed along some kind of bullshit, made excuses.

他们散布一些废话，找借口。

They didn’t want it.

他们不想要它。

Meanwhile, they were sending their snipers.

与此同时，他们也派出了狙击手。

We had evidence, living proof, even video evidence because some of them were captured back then.

我们有证据，活生生的证据，甚至还有视频证据，因为其中一些是当时被抓获的。

Those were the snipers in training.

那是正在训练的狙击手。

They were training them.

他们正在训练他们。

They were training them.

他们正在训练他们。

And later, those snipers operated in Syria and Africa.

后来，这些狙击手在叙利亚和非洲开展行动。

These snipers were training in our country in the east.

这些狙击手正在我国东部受训。

Ukrainians were living targets.

乌克兰人是活生生的目标。

59:35 They were shooting from the other side, killing people, women, people, children.

他们从另一边开枪，杀死了人们、妇女、人民、儿童。

They were shooting.

他们正在射击。

It was a hunt.

这是一次狩猎。

By the way, it was in the Russian-speaking region in the east where according to him, everyone is speaking Russian.

顺便说一下，那是在东部的俄语地区，据他说，那里每个人都说俄语。

That’s where they were shooting.

那是他们拍摄的地方。

Where the situation currently is the most tense.

目前那里的局势最为紧张。

They killed people.

他们杀了人。

We sent this information, sent pictures, we sent them to the UN, sent them everywhere.

我们发送了这些信息，发送了图片，我们将它们发送给了联合国，发送给了世界各地。

We worked very hard, very persistently.

我们非常努力，非常坚持。

I met with everyone but who thought of Ukraine back then.

我会见了所有人，除了当时想到乌克兰的人。

They didn’t notice it much.

他们并没有太注意到这一点。

They didn’t pay much attention to Crimea being illegally occupied either.

他们也没有太关注克里米亚被非法占领。

To be honest, the United States of America too, everyone was somewhat silent about this issue.

说实话，美国也是如此，大家对于这个问题都有些沉默。

That’s how it was.

就是这样。

It was like that before a full-scale war.

全面战争之前就是这样。

1:00:30 I want to ask you a question about the ceasefire.

我想问你一个关于停火的问题。

For example, in Mariupol today, there are American and Ukrainian journalists, and everyone will tell you who has contact now with Mariupol, who fled from there in the last minutes, just before the occupation or who was able to leave to escape after the occupation?

例如，今天在马里乌波尔，有美国和乌克兰记者，每个人都会告诉你谁现在与马里乌波尔有联系，谁在占领前的最后几分钟逃离那里，或者谁在占领后能够离开并逃跑？

Chernov, who won an Oscar was among them, and the journalists that left Mariupol, they are here by the way.

其中包括获得奥斯卡奖的切尔诺夫，还有离开马里乌波尔的记者，顺便说一句，他们也在这里。

We had a conversation.

我们进行了交谈。

They will tell you that 20,000, 30,000 civilians were tortured and buried there.

他们会告诉你，有两万、三万平民被折磨并埋葬在那里。

We do not know the number of victims.

我们不知道受害者人数。

People who didn’t want to work with them, who refused to cooperate with them, people who went on strikes to protest, people who did not want to work with the Russians who occupied Mariupol.

那些不想与他们合作的人，那些拒绝与他们合作的人，那些进行罢工抗议的人，那些不想与占领马里乌波尔的俄罗斯人合作的人。

And this is one example just with this city.

这就是这座城市的一个例子。

And I have a question for you.

我有一个问题要问你。

What about the millions of children?

数以百万计的儿童怎么办？

1:01:40 I will ask you in Russian so that you hear this without delay, what about the millions of children over there?

我会用俄语问你，以便你立即听到这个消息，那边数百万儿童怎么办？

What if we just arranged a ceasefire without understanding what would happen next without understanding what will happen to Ukraine’s security guarantees?

如果我们只是安排停火，却不了解接下来会发生什么，也不了解乌克兰的安全保障会发生什么？

What about the millions of children in the occupied territories?

被占领土上的数百万儿童怎么办？

What should I tell them?

我应该告诉他们什么？

What am I to tell them?

我该告诉他们什么？

What is it I should tell them?

我应该告诉他们什么？

What?

什么？

Whatever?

任何？

Hey, all of you over there, see ya.

嘿，在座的各位，再见。

And those tens of thousands of people buried there, they were…

而那些埋葬在那里的数万人，他们是……

Is that what we want?

这就是我们想要的吗？

Are we ready to forgive them for this?

我们准备好原谅他们了吗？

We must at least take the first step.

我们至少必须迈出第一步。

If this is a ceasefire, we must know that there is a security guarantee for the part of Ukraine under our control.

如果这是停火，我们必须知道我们控制下的乌克兰部分地区有安全保障。

We need it so that he will not come back.

我们需要它，这样他就不会回来。

This is very important.

这非常重要。

1:02:38 What do we say to the people who live in those territories?

我们对生活在这些领土上的人们说什么？

These are millions of people.

这些人有数百万人。

Did you know that since 2014 in Donetsk, in the Crimea, this is happening in Melitopol as well as in Berdiansk now, they are making all these kids of drafting age go and fight?

你知道吗，自2014年在顿涅茨克、克里米亚、梅利托波尔以及现在的别尔江斯克，这种情况正在发生，他们让所有这些处于征兵年龄的孩子去参加战斗？

And if they don’t go, they will be killed.

如果他们不去，他们就会被杀。

So, you understand what’s happening?

那么，你明白发生了什么吗？

That is why a ceasefire, everything I said, what I wish for, and I believe in President Trump’s power to use all of this information to come up with a way to make Ukraine strong.

这就是为什么停火，我所说的一切，我所希望的，我相信特朗普总统有能力利用所有这些信息来想出让乌克兰强大的方法。

Why am I saying that?

我为什么这么说？

I will give you an example.

我给你举个例子。

President Trump will be in the same situation as I was in 2019.

特朗普总统将面临与我 2019 年相同的处境。

Precisely the same situation.

完全一样的情况。

I want to end the war.

我想结束战争。

We want a lasting piece for Ukraine.

我们希望为乌克兰留下持久的一块。

We must do this, the ceasefire, exchange people, and then diplomatically return all territories.

我们必须这样做，停火，交换人员，然后通过外交手段归还所有领土。

And we will do this through diplomacy.

我们将通过外交来做到这一点。

What will happen next with-

接下来会发生什么——

1:04:00 …

……

to diplomacy.

外交。

What will happen next with President Trump?

特朗普总统接下来会发生什么？

If the ceasefire happens without security guarantees, at least for the territory we control, what does he get?

如果在没有安全保障的情况下停火，至少在我们控制的领土上，他会得到什么？

If he manages to make a ceasefire deal, and three months later, Putin launches a new wave of attacks, what will Trump look like?

如果他成功达成停火协议，三个月后普京发起新一波攻击，特朗普会是什么样子？

What will Ukraine look like?

乌克兰会是什么样子？

What will everyone look like?

每个人都会是什么样子？

Putin will just do it, and why would Putin do it?

普京就会这样做，普京为什么要这样做呢？

Because today he’s afraid of Trump.

因为今天他害怕特朗普。

But once Trump manages, for example, to do a ceasefire deal without serious security guarantees for Ukraine, he will give a pass to Putin.

但一旦特朗普设法在没有对乌克兰提供严格安全保障的情况下达成停火协议，他就会向普京放行。

Not that he wants to, no, he does not want that.

不是他愿意，不，他不想那样。

I believe in what he says.

我相信他说的话。

But he will give Putin an opportunity, because in Putin’s head, he wants me to fight with Trump.

但他会给普京机会，因为在普京的脑子里，他希望我和特朗普一起战斗。

1:05:04 Putin’s plan is to end the occupation of our territory.

普京的计划是结束对我国领土的占领。

This is in his sick head and I’m absolutely sure of this.

这是他脑子里的病，我对此深信不疑。

That is why I told you don’t wait for Putin to want to stop the war.

这就是为什么我告诉你不要等到普京想要停止战争。

Pressure him so that he is forced to stop the war, that’s important.

向他施加压力，迫使他停止战争，这很重要。

It’s important to say that what you said about the children is a tragedy.

重要的是，你所说的关于孩子们的事情是一场悲剧。

1:05:30 War is hell, but let me say again, we must find a path to peace.

战争是地狱，但我再说一遍，我们必须找到一条通往和平的道路。

There is one.

有一个。

What is it?

它是什么？

There is one.

有一个。

1:05:41 Before ceasefire, strong Ukraine.

停火前，乌克兰强大。

Strong Ukraine’s position, yes, we can speak about it with Trump.

乌克兰的立场坚定，是的，我们可以与特朗普讨论这个问题。

For me, we can speak about security guarantees, but a quick step is NATO.

对我来说，我们可以谈论安全保障，但快速的一步是北约。

A partial membership, NATO, yes, I understand.

部分成员国，北约，是的，我明白。

I understand Trump’s feelings about NATO.

我理解特朗普对北约的感受。

I heard him, he’s thinking through all of it, of course.

我听到了他的声音，当然，他正在考虑这一切。

1:06:10 But anyway, yes, NATO is a strong security guarantee for all the people, for us, part of security guarantee.

但无论如何，是的，北约是所有人的强有力的安全保障，对我们来说，也是安全保障的一部分。

The second part is the arms aid package, which we will not use.

第二部分是武器援助包，我们不会使用。

If a ceasefire works, nobody will use the weapons.

如果停火有效，没有人会使用这些武器。

For what?

为了什么？

But it has to stay.

但它必须留下来。

But with all due respect to the United States and to the administration, not like before, I don’t want the same situation like we had with Biden.

但恕我直言，我不希望出现像拜登那样的情况，与以前不同。

1:06:39 I ask for sanctions now, please, and weapons now and then we will see.

我现在请求制裁，请时不时地请求武器，我们拭目以待。

If they start it again, of course, we’ll be happy if you’ll give us more and you will stand with us shoulder to shoulder.

当然，如果他们重新开始，如果您能给我们更多，并与我们并肩站在一起，我们会很高兴。

Of course, that is right, but, but it’s different when you have weapons.

当然，这是对的，但是，但是有了武器就不一样了。

Putin wouldn’t have been able to occupy so much territory.

普京不可能占领这么多领土。

1:07:03 It was very difficult for us to push him out, but we didn’t have weapons before and that is the same situation.

我们很难把他推出去，但我们以前没有武器，情况也是一样。

It can be the same situation.

可能是同样的情况。

I’m just sharing this with you, like I said at the very beginning, I want to be very honest with you and with your audience.

我只是与你们分享这一点，就像我一开始所说的那样，我想对你们和你们的观众非常诚实。

Yes, it’s true.

是的，这是真的。

If we do not have security guarantees, Putin will come again.

如果我们没有安全保障，普京就会再来。

To make it clear, let’s describe the idea that you are speaking about.

为了清楚起见，让我们描述一下您正在谈论的想法。

1:07:24 I would like to offer you other ideas too.

我也想向您提供其他想法。

1:07:32 But right now, your idea is that NATO accepts Ukraine, minus the five regions of Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson and Crimea.

但现在，你的想法是北约接受乌克兰，减去卢甘斯克、顿涅茨克、扎波罗热、赫尔松和克里米亚五个地区。

Just so you understand the situation, the invitation to NATO is legislatively issued to Ukraine.

为了让大家了解情况，北约的邀请是通过立法向乌克兰发出的。

1:07:43 So to us, all those territories are still Ukraine, but NATO so far can only act in the part that is under Ukrainian control.

所以对我们来说，所有这些领土仍然是乌克兰，但北约到目前为止只能在乌克兰控制下的部分采取行动。

This can be negotiated, I’m sure about that.

这是可以协商的，我确信这一点。

Yes, this would not be a great success for us, but if we see a diplomatic way to end the war, this is one of the ways.

是的，这对我们来说不会是一个巨大的成功，但如果我们看到一种外交方式来结束战争，这就是其中之一。

1:08:16 So it is, sorry, that is a start.

所以，抱歉，这是一个开始。

Secondly, weapons, arms aid package, I’m not ready to discuss this publicly right now.

其次，武器、武器援助计划，我现在不准备公开讨论这个问题。

It’s all written down and President Trump might have seen it or not, but we’ve got no secrets from him, yes.

这一切都被写下来了，特朗普总统可能已经看到或没有看到，但我们从他那里没有任何秘密，是的。

But mostly it depends on the willingness of the United States, because some of it will come from the EU, some from the United States, of course, together.

但这主要取决于美国的意愿，因为其中一些来自欧盟，一些来自美国，当然，都是一起的。

1:08:43 So not just from the United States, no, no, no, we need unity with this package, so the package and sanctions.

因此，不仅仅是美国，不，不，不，我们需要团结这一方案，因此一揽子计划和制裁。

Yes, sanctions, but I think it’s in the interest of all the smart people to not have Russian energy on the market in general, so he has to stop it.

是的，制裁，但我认为一般市场上不存在俄罗斯能源符合所有聪明人的利益，所以他必须阻止它。

That’s all, it’s fine.

仅此而已，没关系。

American oil, American gas is okay.

美国石油，美国天然气都可以。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

And it’s cheaper, so it will be cheaper for the whole world.

而且它更便宜，所以对全世界来说都会更便宜。

1:09:11 The money will go to the United States and I think he will be happy, and the president and your people will be happy, but it’s your decision.

这笔钱将流向美国，我认为他会很高兴，总统和你们的人民也会很高兴，但这是你的决定。

I’m just sharing.

我只是分享。

Yes, and cheaper oil.

是的，而且石油更便宜。

So Putin won’t have so much money for the war, and that’s it.

所以普京不会有那么多钱用于战争，仅此而已。

But this is difficult because it’s a lot.

但这很困难，因为数量很多。

1:09:27 You’re saying to continue the sanctions on Russia, to accept Ukraine into NATO, I need to ask you some difficult questions about this.

你说要继续制裁俄罗斯，要接受乌克兰加入北约，我需要问你一些关于这个问题的难题。

Yes, go on.

是的，继续。

I trust and respect your words today.

我今天相信并尊重你的话。

1:09:38 Many people respect and love you in America.

在美国，很多人尊重你、爱你。

Trump respects you.

特朗普尊重你。

Loves me.

爱我。

Oh, come on now.

哦，现在来吧。

1:09:47 Remember, last time you corrected me when I said that you love Javier Millet, you said, “No, no, no, I respect him.”

请记住，上次当我说你爱哈维尔·米勒时你纠正了我，你说：“不，不，不，我尊重他。”

1:09:54 So let’s not talk about love today, but could we talk seriously about guaranteeing Russia’s security?

那么今天我们不谈爱情，但我们能认真谈谈保障俄罗斯的安全吗？

Okay.

好的。

1:10:04 Can I interview you a little?

我可以采访一下你吗？

Question is what land is the war happening on and where did it start?

问题是战争发生在哪片土地上，从哪里开始？

On our soil, on our territory, international law was violated.

在我们的土地上，在我们的领土上，国际法遭到了违反。

The sovereignty of our country was violated, civilians were killed.

我国主权遭到侵犯，平民被杀害。

Tens of thousands of our people were taken hostage, and everyone will tell you this happened.

我们数以万计的人民被扣为人质，每个人都会告诉你这件事发生了。

1:10:28 This is what happened when I speak with the Global South, which is trying to balance the two sides because of the history, because of their roots and because of their shared economic interests with Russia in the past.

这就是我与南半球国家交谈时所发生的情况，因为历史、根源以及过去与俄罗斯的共同经济利益，南半球国家试图平衡双方。

And now, of course, when you talk to them, they are speaking a little bit like you.

当然，现在当你和他们交谈时，他们的说话方式有点像你。

They’re balancing a little bit.

他们正在平衡一点。

Yeah, a little bit in between, but we will work on it.

是的，介于两者之间，但我们会努力解决。

Yeah.

是的。

It’s our first meeting.

这是我们第一次见面。

1:10:57 During the second one, you will be more on our side, but it’s just-

在第二个过程中，你会更多地站在我们这一边，但只是——

You’re very convincing, very charismatic.

你非常有说服力，非常有魅力。

Yeah, thank you.

是的，谢谢。

1:11:05 But when I speak with them, when I speak, it’s very important.

但当我和他们说话时，当我说话时，这非常重要。

Even with their balancing attitude towards the war, they all recognize that this is a war.

即使他们对战争持平衡态度，他们也都承认这是一场战争。

This is not just internal conflict, this is a full-scale war that began, that Putin began.

这不仅仅是内部冲突，这是一场由普京开始的全面战争。

And all of them, all of them, if you talk to them, they say…

所有的人，所有的人，如果你和他们交谈，他们会说……

1:11:41 But then they all recognize that, that it’s his own big mistake, Putin’s mistake, and that he’s not right.

但后来他们都认识到，这是他自己的大错误，普京的错误，他是不对的。

That’s why I said, “No, no.

这就是为什么我说：“不，不。

He’s not right, and you have to begin from this.” If you begin at the middle, between Ukraine and Russia, of course, we can speak like this.

他不对，你必须从这开始。”如果从中间开始，即乌克兰和俄罗斯之间，当然，我们可以这样说。

You are in the middle and say, “Okay, what’s going on?

你在中间说：“好吧，发生了什么事？

There is a fight.

有一场战斗。

Where is the fight?”

哪里打仗了？”

1:12:10 It’s not the fight like in Europe when Napoleon is fighting against somebody in the middle of Europe.

这不是像在欧洲拿破仑在欧洲中部与某个人作战时那样的战斗。

No, this is not in the middle of somewhere of the planet.

不，这不是在地球的某个地方的中间。

Not the planet, it’s concretely on our land.

不是地球，而是我们的土地上。

So one country with one army, one person came to another.

于是一国一军，一人来到另一国。

That’s it, it’s very clear.

就是这样，非常清楚了。

Again, I would like us to find a path to peace, so let us nevertheless try to start in the middle.

我再次希望我们能找到一条通往和平的道路，所以让我们尝试从中间开始。

1:12:38 What other ideas do you think might?

您认为还有哪些其他想法？

You are a very intelligent person and-

你是一个非常聪明的人而且——

Your Russian isn’t that good either, and I told you that this is only our first meeting.

你的俄语也不太好，我告诉你这只是我们的第一次见面。

My English is not very good either.

我的英语也不是很好。

Your English is very good.

你的英语很好。

Thank you.

谢谢。

1:13:00 To be honest, I’m terrible at speaking in every language.

老实说，我不擅长用每种语言说话。

Well, there are other ideas.

嗯，还有其他想法。

For instance, sorry to say this, it sounds crazy.

例如，很遗憾地说，这听起来很疯狂。

Please.

请。

But what if both Ukraine and Russia are accepted into NATO?

但如果乌克兰和俄罗斯都加入北约怎么办？

Putin himself spoke about Russia, maybe about NATO.

普京本人谈到了俄罗斯，也许还谈到了北约。

1:13:12 What you just said is very correct.

你刚才说的非常正确。

What are the guarantees for Russia?

对俄罗斯有什么保障？

It’s not like I’m even interested what happens to them.

我对他们身上发生的事情根本不感兴趣。

To be honest, I don’t care what will happen to them in the future after the war ends, but these are our borders and we must understand what is going on there.

说实话，我不在乎战争结束后他们将来会发生什么，但这是我们的边界，我们必须了解那里正在发生什么。

Well, the NATO guarantees for Ukraine.

嗯，北约为乌克兰提供保证。

1:13:43 Actually, this is also a security guarantee for the Russians.

其实，这也是俄罗斯人的安全保障。

Frankly, I talked about this many times before.

坦白说，我之前多次谈到过这个问题。

Sorry, I’m speaking figuratively, but as an example, if you were a father who lost his children, a grown man.

抱歉，我是在打比方，但举个例子，如果你是一位失去孩子的父亲，一个成年人。

A grown man, a man, an adult, and the war has ended and he never got justice for real.

一个成年男子，一个男人，一个成年人，战争已经结束，他从未得到真正的正义。

For example, somebody decides to freeze support.

例如，有人决定冻结支持。

We won’t give you anything.

我们不会给你任何东西。

1:14:16 You can’t fight.

你不能战斗。

You can’t continue, so we stop when we stop without any guarantees, without any support, without financing, without okay.

你无法继续，所以当我们停止时，我们就停止，没有任何保证，没有任何支持，没有融资，没有许可。

And nobody is held accountable, but the man lost his children.

没有人承担责任，但该男子失去了他的孩子。

He will not get anything.

他不会得到任何东西。

None of the killers will be in prison.

没有一个凶手会入狱。

All the sanctions will be removed, and he lost his children, and we have thousands of such people.

所有的制裁都将被取消，他失去了他的孩子，我们有成千上万这样的人。

1:14:47 Why do you think they will not go to Russia?

您认为他们为什么不会去俄罗斯？

We’ll find a way and will not kill the Russian soldiers there or somebody there.

我们会找到办法，不会杀死那里的俄罗斯士兵或那里的人。

Why wouldn’t they?

他们为什么不呢？

It’s human nature.

这是人性。

It’s not about us, it’s everyone.

这不是关于我们，而是关于每个人。

Read American writers.

读美国作家的作品。

Always after any war, if there is no justice for people, there must be punishment for the crime, it is only justice.

任何战争之后，如果人们没有正义，就必须对罪行进行惩罚，这才是正义。

How come my child was taken away?

我的孩子怎么被带走了？

The war took him.

战争带走了他。

1:15:21 This is very scary.

这是非常可怕的。

And even whether it was my son, who was fulfilling his constitutional duty, or simply a missile that struck a civilian child, and if there is no justice and the killers are not punished, why wouldn’t these people come back with hate?

甚至无论是我儿子履行宪法义务，还是只是一枚导弹击中了平民儿童，如果没有正义，凶手不受到惩罚，这些人为什么不带着仇恨回来呢？

They will definitely come back.

他们一定会回来的。

So when we talk about NATO, NATO is not only stopping Russia.

因此，当我们谈论北约时，北约不仅在阻止俄罗斯。

1:15:51 Do not forget, NATO is stopping us too, because there will not be justice for everyone.

不要忘记，北约也在阻止我们，因为不会为每个人带来正义。

We know that NATO does not have the right to solve certain issues with war.

我们知道，北约无权通过战争解决某些问题。

NATO is a security alliance, it is protection, not brainwashing.

北约是安全联盟，是保护，不是洗脑。

What Putin claims that this is offensive is not true.

普京声称这是冒犯性的说法并不属实。

NATO is a defensive alliance, a security alliance, and it is security for Russia.

北约是一个防御联盟、一个安全联盟，也是俄罗斯的安全。

But unfortunately, there are many options for peace that don’t involve NATO inviting Ukraine as a member.

但不幸的是，和平的选择有很多，但不涉及北约邀请乌克兰作为成员。

1:16:22 Can you imagine security guarantees without NATO membership?

你能想象没有北约成员国的安全保障吗？

1:16:35 For example, if America simply leaves NATO, I believe there is a high likelihood that Donald Trump would do such a thing.

例如，如果美国干脆离开北约，我相信唐纳德·特朗普很有可能会做这样的事情。

I think it’s very bad for NATO.

我认为这对北约非常不利。

1:16:45 That’s the end, that is, that’s the death of NATO.

这就是终结，也就是说，这就是北约的死亡。

It is a pity, because I think that it’s a very good alliance.

很遗憾，因为我认为这是一个非常好的联盟。

Maybe not everything’s good there from the bureaucracy or money, et cetera, but totally countries who are in NATO, they don’t fight.

也许官僚机构或金钱等方面并不是一切都很好，但北约国家完全不会打仗。

1:17:07 There is no war on the land of any of these NATO countries.

这些北约国家的土地上没有发生战争。

I think that is the answer.

我想这就是答案。

It works or not.

它是否有效。

It works politically or militarily, I don’t know, but it works.

我不知道它在政治或军事上有效，但它有效。

So without Trump, without the United States of America, there will not be NATO.

因此，没有特朗普，没有美利坚合众国，就不会有北约。

That is the first, so and you say, “Can we imagine that?” That what?

这是第一个，所以你会说，“我们能想象吗？”那什么？

That there could be security guarantee without.

没有安全保障也可以。

No, we don’t need guarantees without the United States.

不，我们不需要没有美国的保证。

1:17:34 That’s it, because the United States is a very strong, powerful country.

就是这样，因为美国是一个非常强大的国家。

The United States puts the point.

美国提出了这一点。

Of course, Putin said that it’s just the Soviet Union where, by the way, Ukraine was the second strong republic militarily, yes, by the way.

当然，普京说，只有苏联，顺便说一句，乌克兰是军事上第二强大的共和国，是的，顺便说一下。

But he, of course, always forgets about it.

但他当然总是忘记这件事。

1:18:01 But during the World War II, without help of the United States, support of your troops, support of your industry.

但在二战期间，没有美国的帮助，没有你的军队的支持，没有你的工业的支持。

Industrially, militarily, without your money, without your people, Hitler could win, so the United States helped a lot.

在工业上、军事上、没有你的钱、没有你的人民，希特勒也能赢，所以美国帮了很多忙。

Of course, Europe, USSR, and of course, everybody fought.

当然，欧洲、苏联，当然，每个人都在战斗。

Everybody did a lot.

每个人都做了很多。

1:18:29 But without the United States, it couldn’t be such.

但如果没有美国，事情就不可能如此。

I don’t use the word success, because I think that there is no war which ends successfully because this is a war.

我不使用成功这个词，因为我认为没有一场战争会成功结束，因为这就是一场战争。

Seven figure losses, heavy losses in World War II, millions of people, and that’s why without the United States, security guarantees are not possible.

七位数的损失，二战中的惨重损失，数百万人，这就是为什么没有美国，安全保障是不可能的。

1:18:53 I mean these security guarantees, which can prevent Russian aggression.

我指的是这些安全保证，可以防止俄罗斯的侵略。

Of course, we have security guarantees bilaterally with some countries financing support of our internal military and defending, and humanitarian issues and demining, which is very important, in helping our children in the school networks.

当然，我们与一些国家有双边安全保障，为我们的内部军事和国防、人道主义问题和排雷提供资金支持，这对于帮助我们的孩子们在学校网络中非常重要。

By the way, this is a very sensitive point.

顺便说一句，这是一个非常敏感的点。

1:19:18 How many bomb shelters?

有多少个防空洞？

How many bomb shelters we built with the partners for the children?

我们与合作伙伴为孩子们建造了多少个防空洞？

And it’s a pity that they are underground, but can you imagine their eyes when they came after COVID?

遗憾的是他们在地下，但你能想象他们追赶新冠病毒时的眼神吗？

You understand what does it mean COVID, but they had COVID and the war, and together they didn’t see each other for so many years.

你明白新冠病毒意味着什么，但他们有新冠病毒和战争，而且他们已经很多年没有见面了。

1:19:39 And when they saw each other even underground, they were very happy and smiling.

当他们在地下见到对方时，他们都非常高兴并且微笑。

So we have such security guarantees, but it’s not enough to prevent.

所以我们有这样的安全保障，但还不足以预防。

Yes, preventive measures also work to prevent the aggression of Putin.

是的，预防措施也有助于防止普京的侵略。

Your English is better than my Russian.

你的英语比我的俄语好。

1:20:00 This is wonderful.

这太棒了。

I’m not sure.

我不知道。

I’m just giving you a compliment.

我只是给你点赞而已。

Thank you.

谢谢。

1:20:07 No, no.

不，不。

You’re supposed to do that kind of thing to a president.

你应该对总统做这种事。

Thank you so much.

太感谢了。

Okay.

好的。

1:20:11 Once again, without NATO guarantees, I have a dream that, let’s say, on January 25 or sometime at the end of January this year, you will sit down with Donald Trump, with Vladimir Putin.

再一次，在没有北约保证的情况下，我有一个梦想，比如说，在 1 月 25 日或今年 1 月底的某个时候，你将与唐纳德·特朗普和弗拉基米尔·普京坐在一起。

1:20:28 And together negotiate a ceasefire with strict security guarantees and an agreement will be signed.

并共同谈判在严格安全保障下停火并签署协议。

What will this look like without NATO?

如果没有北约，这会是什么样子？

I will make it clear.

我会说清楚的。

1:20:41 So first of all, I think January 25th or some other day, well, you just call it January 25th and I don’t mind, it’s my birthday.

所以首先，我认为 1 月 25 日或其他日子，好吧，你就称它为 1 月 25 日，我不介意，这是我的生日。

And we sit down, first of all, with Trump.

首先，我们与特朗普坐下来。

We agree with him on how we can stop the war, stop Putin.

我们同意他关于如何停止战争、阻止普京的观点。

It is important for us to sit down with him.

对我们来说与他坐在一起很重要。

1:21:16 Secondly, it is very important for us that Europe, which is very important for us because we are part of Europe.

其次，欧洲对我们来说非常重要，这对我们来说非常重要，因为我们是欧洲的一部分。

And not only geographically, geopolitically, but also in the European Union where we will be.

不仅在地理上、地缘政治上，而且在我们将要所处的欧盟中也是如此。

For us, it is very important that Europe also has a voice.

对我们来说，欧洲也有发言权非常重要。

It’s the second thing.

这是第二件事。

It won’t be long because Europe will be looking at us and we’ll be looking at Trump.

这不会太久，因为欧洲将会关注我们，我们也会关注特朗普。

1:21:44 And by the way, I now see that when I talk about something with Donald Trump, whether we meet in person or we just have a call, all the European leaders always ask, “How was it?” This shows the influence of Donald Trump, and this has never happened before with an American president.

顺便说一句，我现在发现，当我与唐纳德·特朗普谈论某事时，无论我们亲自会面还是只是通电话，所有欧洲领导人总是会问，“怎么样？”这显示了唐纳德·特朗普的影响力，这在美国总统中从未发生过。

I tell you from my experience, this also gives you confidence that he can stop this war.

我以我的经验告诉你，这也让你有信心他能够阻止这场战争。

1:22:15 That is why we and Trump come first and Europe will support Ukraine’s position, because they understand that Ukraine has every right to have its voice heard in this because we are at war.

这就是为什么我们和特朗普是第一位的，欧洲将支持乌克兰的立场，因为他们明白乌克兰完全有权在这方面发出自己的声音，因为我们正处于战争之中。

Trump and I will come to an agreement.

特朗普和我将会达成协议。

And then if, and I am sure that he can offer strong security guarantees together with Europe, and then we can talk to the Russians.

然后，如果我确信他能够与欧洲一起提供强有力的安全保证，那么我们就可以与俄罗斯人交谈。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

1:22:46 Not just three of us sitting down at once, and you still talk to me like that?

不只是我们三个人同时坐下来，你还这样跟我说话？

Do you know how?

你知道怎么做吗？

As if Putin wants to sit down and talk, but Ukraine does not.

好像普京想坐下来谈谈，但乌克兰不想。

This is not true.

这不是真的。

I think that yes, he is, in fact, ready to talk.

我认为是的，他实际上已经准备好说话了。

Did you talk to him?

你跟他说话了吗？

On the phone or what?

打电话还是什么？

How do you normally talk to him?

你平时怎么跟他说话？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

1:23:10 Normally, by the sea, the same as with you.

通常，在海边，和你一样。

He invites you to the sea with me, just the three of us.

他邀请你和我一起去海边，只有我们三个人。

No, no.

不，不。

1:23:17 One of us may drown.

我们中的一个人可能会被淹死。

Who?

WHO？

1:23:19 Are you good at swimming?

你擅长游泳吗？

Yes, I’m a good swimmer.

是的，我是一个很好的游泳运动员。

You’re a good swimmer.

你是一个很好的游泳运动员。

1:23:21 Well…

嗯……

And I would like to add that if you have any contact with him, I just want to hear what happens then.

我想补充一点，如果你与他有任何联系，我只想听听接下来会发生什么。

I have never talked to Vladimir Putin, but I have a feeling that he is ready, because Donald Trump is ready.

我从未与弗拉基米尔·普京谈过，但我有一种感觉，他已经准备好了，因为唐纳德·特朗普已经准备好了。

1:23:32 I hope you’re ready, and this is not just a feeling, but a dream.

我希望你已经准备好了，这不仅仅是一种感觉，而是一个梦想。

1:23:46 I have a dream here that the three of you will get together in a room and make peace, and I want to understand what it looks like.

我在这里有一个梦想，你们三个会聚在一个房间里和睦相处，我想了解那是什么样子。

What security guarantees look like that will satisfy Ukraine, that will satisfy Russia.

什么样的安全保障才能让乌克兰满意，让俄罗斯满意。

Ukraine needs security guarantees.

乌克兰需要安全保障。

1:24:04 First and foremost, we are in danger, that is why they are called so.

首先也是最重要的是，我们处于危险之中，这就是他们被如此称呼的原因。

This is no joke to me.

这对我来说不是玩笑。

Let’s take a few steps back.

让我们退后几步。

Interesting, why are security guarantees a strong position of Ukraine, strong weapons and so on, so important?

有趣的是，为什么安全保证乌克兰的强势地位、强大的武器等等如此重要？

I will give you a little history lesson, although I think you have prepared yourself and know everything perfectly well.

我会给你上一点历史课，尽管我认为你已经做好了准备并且对一切都了如指掌。

1:24:38 You can correct me on that.

你可以纠正我。

Yes, Ukraine had security guarantees.

是的，乌克兰有安全保障。

The Budapest Memorandum, nuclear weapons are the security guarantees that Ukraine had.

布达佩斯备忘录中，核武器是乌克兰的安全保障。

Ukraine had nuclear weapons.

乌克兰拥有核武器。

I do not want to characterize it as good or bad.

我不想将其描述为好或坏。

Today, the fact that we do not have them is bad.

今天，我们没有它们这一事实很糟糕。

Why?

为什么？

Because this is war.

因为这是战争。

1:25:01 Today we are at war because you have unleashed the hands of a nuclear power.

今天我们处于战争之中，因为你们释放了核大国的双手。

A nuclear power is fighting against us, against Ukraine, and doing what it wants.

一个核国家正在与我们、乌克兰作战，并且为所欲为。

By the way, even you are now talking about ceasefire, just a ceasefire.

顺便说一句，连你们现在都在谈论停火，只是停火。

Maybe give flowers to Putin, maybe to say, “Thank you so much for these years.

也许给普京送花，也许是说：“这些年来非常感谢你。

That was a great part of my life.” No, we are not just ready for this.

那是我生命中很重要的一部分。”不，我们不仅仅为此做好了准备。

1:25:33 Why?

为什么？

The Budapest Memorandum, nuclear weapons, this is what we had.

布达佩斯备忘录、核武器，这就是我们所拥有的。

Ukraine used them for protection.

乌克兰利用它们进行保护。

This does not mean that someone attacked us.

这并不意味着有人攻击我们。

That doesn’t mean that we would have used it.

这并不意味着我们会使用它。

We had that opportunity.

我们有这样的机会。

These were our security guarantees.

这些是我们的安全保证。

Why am I talking about this in detail?

我为什么要详细讲这个？

Because if you take the Budapest Memorandum, by the way, I discussed this with President Trump.

因为如果你看《布达佩斯备忘录》，顺便说一句，我与特朗普总统讨论过这个问题。

1:25:58 We have not finished this conversation yet.

我们还没有结束这次谈话。

We will continue it.

我们会继续下去。

Regarding the Budapest Memorandum, the Budapest Memorandum included security guarantees for Ukraine at first, three, three.

关于布达佩斯备忘录，布达佩斯备忘录包括对乌克兰的安全保障第一、三、三。

The most important security guarantors for Ukraine, three strategic friends and partners of Ukraine.

乌克兰最重要的安全保障者，乌克兰的三个战略朋友和伙伴。

This was in agreement.

这是一致同意的。

United States of America, Russia, Britain, France, and China joined.

美利坚合众国、俄罗斯、英国、法国和中国加入。

1:26:28 There were five states that these are not even security guarantees.

有五个州表示这些甚至都不是安全保障。

We now understand that this is not a guarantee of security, because on the one hand, these are security guarantees, but there was an English word, as far as I understand, assurance.

我们现在明白，这不是安全的保证，因为一方面，这些是安全的保证，但据我了解，有一个英文单词，assurance。

It is translated as assurance, assurance, right?

翻译过来就是保证，保证，对吗？

And in Russian, it’ll be and what assurance?

在俄语中，这将是什么保证？

1:26:59 That is give up nuclear weapons because you were under pressure of the US and Russia for Ukraine to give them up.

那就是放弃核武器，因为你受到美国和俄罗斯的压力，要求乌克兰放弃核武器。

These two powers were exerting pressure.

这两个势力正在施加压力。

These two states negotiated to ensure that Ukraine does not have nuclear weapons.

这两个国家进行谈判以确保乌克兰不拥有核武器。

Ukraine agreed.

乌克兰同意了。

These are the largest states.

这些是最大的州。

This is the nuclear five that does not even provide security guarantees.

这就是连安全保障都没有的核五国。

1:27:27 Now we just need to find these people, and we just need to put in jail all of those who frankly invented all this.

现在我们只需要找到这些人，我们只需要把所有坦白发明这一切的人关进监狱。

So confidence, assurance, assurance that Ukraine will be territorially integral with its sovereignty.

因此，我们有信心、保证、保证乌克兰将在领土上与其主权不可分割。

It was a piece of paper.

那是一张纸。

If you are curious, by the way, that after occupying part of our Donbas and Crimea, Ukraine sent diplomats three times.

如果你好奇的话，顺便说一下，乌克兰在占领我们顿巴斯和克里米亚的部分地区后，曾三次派出外交官。

1:28:04 I don’t think I remember, three times within a few years, we sent letters to all security guarantors, to all members of the Budapest Memorandum.

我想我不记得了，几年之内，我们三次给所有安全保证人、布达佩斯备忘录的所有成员发了信。

What did they send?

他们送了什么？

That what was written on the piece of paper, consultations, Ukraine holds consultations.

那张纸上写的，磋商，乌克兰举行磋商。

If it’s territorial, integrity is violated and everyone should be in consultation.

如果是领土性的，就会违反诚信，每个人都应该协商。

Everyone must come.

每个人都必须来。

1:28:32 Everyone must meet urgently, USA, Britain, Russia, France, China.

大家必须紧急开会，美国、英国、俄罗斯、法国、中国。

Did anyone come, you ask?

你问有人来吗？

No.

不。

Did anyone reply to these letters, official letters?

有人回复这些信件吗？官方信件吗？

They are all recorded by diplomats.

它们都是由外交官记录的。

Did anyone conduct consultations?

有人咨询过吗？

No, and why not?

不，为什么不呢？

They didn’t give a fuck.

他们根本不在乎。

This is understandable in Russian, that as Russia didn’t give a damn, neither did all the other security guarantors of the Budapest Memorandum.

这在俄语中是可以理解的，因为俄罗斯并不在乎，《布达佩斯备忘录》的所有其他安全保障国也不在乎。

1:29:08 None of them gave a damn about this country, these people, these security guarantees, et cetera.

他们没有人关心这个国家、这些人、这些安全保障等等。

We take a break, this will be a Budapest Memorandum.

我们休息一下，这将是一份布达佩斯备忘录。

The last time with me, imagine how many years it was with me in February 2022?

上次和我在一起，想象一下2022年2月和我在一起已经多少年了？

In February 2022, the war began, a full-scale war.

2022年2月，战争爆发，全面战争。

Letters for consultations have been sent.

磋商信函已发出。

No one answers.

没有人回答。

Next, we are taking a break from the Budapest Memorandum.

接下来，我们将暂停《布达佩斯备忘录》。

1:29:46 The question is simple about Budapest.

关于布达佩斯的问题很简单。

Can we trust this?

我们可以相信这一点吗？

No.

不。

Whichever country out of these five sat at the negotiating table, just a piece of paper.

无论这五个国家中的哪一个坐在谈判桌上，都只是一张纸。

Believe me, we will save you.

相信我，我们会拯救你。

No.

不。

Another, this is a train.

另一个，这是火车。

This is a train with wastepaper, with security guarantees, which Ukraine has been riding for many years.

这是一列满是废纸、有安全保证的火车，乌克兰已经乘坐了很多年了。

The second car on this train is the Minsk agreements.

这趟列车的第二节车厢是明斯克协议车厢。

1:30:21 The Normandy Format and the Minsk agreements where it was written, where the signatories were, the United States of America was no longer there.

《诺曼底格式》和《明斯克协议》的起草地、签署国所在的地方，美利坚合众国已不复存在。

I understand that Obama was here at the time, and as far as I know, I think they were simply not interested in what happened to Ukraine, and where it was in general, where it was located.

我知道奥巴马当时就在这里，据我所知，我认为他们根本对乌克兰发生的事情以及它的总体情况和所在地不感兴趣。

Well, somewhere there, part of something.

嗯，就在那儿的某个地方，某物的一部分。

1:30:43 People, well, people and let it be, let it be with these people.

人们，好吧，人们，顺其自然，顺其自然。

The United States simply did not participate.

美国根本没有参与。

In the Minsk agreements, there are no claims to the US because they were not guarantors.

在明斯克协议中，没有向美国提出索赔，因为美国不是担保国。

Where is the claim?

索赔在哪里？

A step back.

退一步。

2008, Bucharest, everyone has already learned from the Budapest Memorandum.

2008年的布加勒斯特，大家已经从布达佩斯备忘录中吸取了教训。

Bucharest, 2008.

布加勒斯特，2008 年。

1:31:14 Bucharest, Mr. Bush, President of the United States, Republican says that Ukraine should be in NATO.

布加勒斯特，美国总统布什先生，共和党人说乌克兰应该加入北约。

This is the voice of Republicans.

这是共和党人的声音。

Check it out, Ukraine should be in NATO.

看看吧，乌克兰应该加入北约。

Everybody’s looking at the US always, all in favor.

每个人都一直在关注美国，都对美国有利。

Who is against?

谁反对？

Merkel, so she opposes and she forced everyone not to give Ukraine an invitation to join NATO because that would be a step.

默克尔，所以她反对，她强迫所有人不要向乌克兰发出加入北约的邀请，因为那将是一个步骤。

1:31:46 Seriously, Republicans were in favor, the US was in favor, because Republicans and Bush were not afraid of anyone.

说真的，共和党人赞成，美国赞成，因为共和党人和布什不害怕任何人。

They were not afraid of anyone, and they knew that Ukraine rightly wanted to join NATO.

他们不害怕任何人，他们知道乌克兰加入北约是正确的。

She chooses so.

她就这样选择。

And what is the question?

问题是什么？

Well, people made their choice.

好吧，人们做出了他们的选择。

Well, and the Russians will not look that way.

好吧，俄罗斯人不会那样看。

That was not the case then.

那时的情况并非如此。

Why?

为什么？

Because the Russians were different.

因为俄罗斯人与众不同。

1:32:16 Next, Minsk, we didn’t succeed.

接下来，明斯克，我们没有成功。

After the Minsk agreements, as I told you, hundreds of meetings were held.

正如我告诉你的那样，明斯克协议签署后，举行了数百次会议。

I have had hundreds of meetings since 2019.

自 2019 年以来，我已经召开了数百次会议。

We could not think about a ceasefire.

我们无法考虑停火。

A ceasefire is our offer, this is not somebody’s suggestion.

停火是我们的提议，这不是某人的建议。

This is mine, I would like.

这是我的，我愿意。

I wanted to.

我想要。

In Ukraine, society was divided.

在乌克兰，社会分裂。

Not everyone wanted to, half did not want to.

不是每个人都愿意，有一半人不愿意。

1:32:52 Half were against, half were in favor.

一半反对，一半赞成。

Some of them shouted, “Do not believe it.” Some of them shouted, “Believe it.” I am the president of Ukraine.

有的人大喊：“不信。”其中一些人喊道：“相信吧。”我是乌克兰总统。

I was given a mandate of trust by 70% of the population to take appropriate steps and I made them.

70% 的人委托我采取适当的措施，我也采取了这些措施。

This is not a joke, we’ll just sit the three of us.

这不是玩笑，我们三个人就坐。

I am simply telling you what is.

我只是告诉你是什么。

This is how can I tell you?

这我该怎么告诉你呢？

1:33:19 These meetings must be serious and prepared, and prepared with those who want peace.

这些会议必须是认真的、有准备的，并且是与那些想要和平的人一起准备的。

Ukraine wants peace, US wants peace.

乌克兰想要和平，美国也想要和平。

We have to sit down with Trump, and that is 100%, first and foremost, number one.

我们必须与特朗普坐下来，这是100%的，首先也是最重要的，第一。

Moreover, he told me on the phone that he is waiting for us to meet, and there will be an official visit.

而且，他在电话里告诉我，他正在等待我们见面，并且将会进行正式访问。

And my visit would be the first or one of the first to him.

我的拜访将是他的第一次或第一次。

1:33:48 And for him, this topic is very important.

而对于他来说，这个话题非常重要。

I know that he has his own matters, American issues, I understand.

我知道他有他自己的事情，美国的问题，我理解。

I heard his election program, but regarding international affairs, I think our issue is one of the most pressing issues for President Trump.

我听说了他的选举计划，但就国际事务而言，我认为我们的问题是特朗普总统最紧迫的问题之一。

Therefore, I believe very much I trust his words, and I hope we will meet again.

所以，我非常相信他的话，希望我们还能再见面。

We need to prepare.

我们需要做好准备。

1:34:11 We have many plans to build on, and they exist and they are supported by many countries, but we need his vision.

我们有很多计划可以借鉴，这些计划已经存在并且得到了许多国家的支持，但我们需要他的远见。

He needs to look at all these details, but his vision, please, because he can stop Putin because Putin is afraid of him.

他需要考虑所有这些细节，但请注意他的远见，因为他可以阻止普京，因为普京害怕他。

That’s a fact, but Trump is a president of a democratic country, and he does not come for life.

这是事实，但特朗普是一个民主国家的总统，他不是终身的。

He is not Putin.

他不是普京。

He will not come for 25 years.

他25年内不会来。

1:34:43 He will come for his term.

他将就任。

Please, tell me.

请告诉我。

Well, for example, he came for four years and for the fifth year, Putin came with a war.

比如说，他来了四年，第五年，普京带来了一场战争。

Will it make Trump feel better that there was no war during his time, and that Ukraine was destroyed after him?

特朗普在他的时代没有发生战争，乌克兰在他之后被摧毁，这会让他感觉好一点吗？

Why destroyed?

为何毁掉？

Putin is whoever, a killer, whoever, but not a fool.

普京是任何人、杀手、任何人，但不是傻瓜。

He will be prepared.

他会做好准备的。

He knows our mistakes.

他知道我们的错误。

1:35:17 He understands how we defeated his army after the invasion began.

他了解我们在入侵开始后如何击败他的军队。

He realized that this was not a Soviet war, and that this would not happen with us.

他意识到这不是苏联的战争，这种事不会发生在我们身上。

He will prepare.

他会做好准备。

He will let everything into arms production.

他将把一切都投入到军火生产中。

He will have lots of weapons, and there will be a very large army.

他将拥有大量的武器，并且将有一支非常庞大的军队。

And you think that after such humiliation, four years without a war, he did not finish us.

你认为在经历了这样的羞辱之后，四年没有发生战争，他并没有结束我们。

1:35:42 He will return and fight only against Ukraine.

他将回归并只与乌克兰作战。

He will destroy everything around.

他会毁灭周围的一切。

And if you say there is a risk that President Trump will withdraw from NATO, for example, this is a decision of the United States.

如果你说特朗普总统有退出北约的风险，那么这是美国的决定。

I’m simply saying that if it does, Putin will destroy Europe.

我只是说，如果真是这样，普京将摧毁欧洲。

Calculate the size of army in Europe.

计算欧洲军队的规模。

1:36:01 Calculate the size of army in Europe.

计算欧洲军队的规模。

It’s just that I say it for a reason.

只是我这么说是有原因的。

Do the calculation.

计算一下。

Why did Hitler conquer all of Europe then?

那么希特勒为何能够征服整个欧洲呢？

Almost.

几乎。

Just count, remember his armies of millions.

数数吧，记住他的百万大军。

Calculate what Europe has.

计算一下欧洲有什么。

What are the largest armies?

最大的军队有哪些？

We have the largest army.

我们拥有最大的军队。

The Ukrainian army is the largest in Europe.

乌克兰军队是欧洲最大的军队。

The second place after us is four times smaller than us.

我们之后的第二个地方比我们小四倍。

France?

法国？

Yes.

是的。

1:36:33 200,000.

200,000。

I think the French have about 200,000.

我认为法国人大约有20万。

We have 980.

我们有980个。

So this powerful coalition of European nations.

所以这个强大的欧洲国家联盟。

That will not be enough.

但这还不够。

Yes, it’s not going to be enough.

是的，这还不够。

1:36:45 But you’re a smart man.

但你是一个聪明人。

There’s a lot of ideas.

有很多想法。

Partnerships with global South India, Middle East, Saudi Arabia, [foreign language 01:36:57] partnerships, political partnerships.

与全球南印度、中东、沙特阿拉伯的伙伴关系，[外语01:36:57]伙伴关系，政治伙伴关系。

It all protects you.

这一切都会保护你。

First of all, look at one example.

首先，看一个例子。

1:37:01 North Korea.

北朝鲜。

Just look at this example.

看看这个例子。

12,000 has arrived.

12,000 人已经抵达。

Today, 3,800 killed or wounded.

今天，有 3,800 人死亡或受伤。

They can bring more.

他们可以带来更多。

30-40,000 or maybe 500.

30-40,000 或也许 500。

They can bring many people.

他们可以带很多人。

Why?

为什么？

Because they have order, autocracy and everything.

因为他们有秩序，有专制，什么都有。

Can Europe bring people together?

欧洲能否将人们团结在一起？

No.

不。

Will Europe be able to build an army consisting of two to 3 million people?

欧洲能够建立一支由两到三百万人组成的军队吗？

No, Europe will not want to do this.

不，欧洲不会愿意这样做。

And for what?

为了什么？

We definitely don’t want a world war with you.

我们绝对不想与你们发生世界大战。

There is no such purpose.

没有这样的目的。

There is no such purpose as gathering everyone.

没有聚集所有人这样的目的。

1:38:07 We do not want any war.

我们不想要任何战争。

We want to stop the Russians and they invite North Korean soldiers.

我们想阻止俄罗斯人，他们邀请了朝鲜士兵。

Invited.

受邀。

Their faces are burned.

他们的脸被烧伤了。

They themselves burn their faces.

他们自己也烧伤了脸。

Those who cannot escape, injured or killed.

那些无法逃脱、受伤或死亡的人。

There’s a video.

有一个视频。

Everything I’m telling you, there is evidence of this so that they are not recognizable.

我告诉你的一切，都有证据表明，所以他们无法被认出。

Right?

正确的？

What does it mean?

这是什么意思？

It’s out of values which share Europe.

它不符合欧洲共同的价值观。

Europe counts.

欧洲很重要。

It means that those guys, they don’t count.

这意味着那些家伙，他们不算数。

[foreign language 01:38:54] It’s count.

[外语01:38:54]算了。

Yes.

是的。

They don’t count the number of people.

他们不计算人数。

That is the answer.

这就是答案。

1:38:58 Can they move more?

他们可以多走动吗？

Yes.

是的。

Can they move dozens of thousands?

他们能搬动几十万吗？

Yes, because we see what they have.

是的，因为我们看到他们拥有什么。

Last year, for example, Europe gave us 1 million artillery rounds.

例如，去年欧洲给了我们100万发炮弹。

We produced a lot ourselves, but they gave us initiative.

我们自己做了很多事情，但他们给了我们主动权。

It was initiative.

这是主动性。

1 million artillery rounds and of 155 and et cetera.

100万发炮弹和155发等等。

We produce more but North Korea gave Putin 3.7.

我们生产更多，但朝鲜给了普京 3.7。

Just gave him.

刚刚给了他。

So he also has a deficit for today.

所以他今天也有赤字。

It means he needs what?

这说明他需要什么？

He needs time.

他需要时间。

But the number of soldiers…

但士兵的数量……

Yes.

是的。

And the number of artillery rounds is not everything.

而炮弹数量并不能说明一切。

1:39:49 As you have said.

正如你所说。

Let’s say Donald Trump guarantees security for four years.

假设唐纳德·特朗普保证四年的安全。

You can form partnerships with India, with Saudi Arabia that enforce punishment to stick on oil prices, for example, if any aggressive action is taken.

你可以与印度、沙特阿拉伯建立伙伴关系，例如，如果采取任何激进行动，就会实施惩罚，以坚持油价上涨。

You can actually even build the…

实际上，您甚至可以构建...

I’ve met a lot of incredible Ukrainian tech people, IT people.

我遇到了很多令人难以置信的乌克兰科技人员、IT 人员。

You could build great companies that form partnerships with the United States, that form partnerships with China, and that is a big leverage against aggression of however many million artillery rounds.

你可以建立伟大的公司，与美国建立伙伴关系，与中国建立伙伴关系，这对抵御数百万发炮弹的侵略是一个巨大的杠杆。

And that, a sheet of paper, you don’t need a sheet of paper of protection.

而且，一张纸，你不需要一张保护纸。

Ah, that’s you.

啊，就是你。

1:40:41 Well, when you speak in English.

好吧，当你用英语说话时。

You don’t even need answers because when you now are talking, you already answered on all the questions.

你甚至不需要答案，因为当你现在说话时，你已经回答了所有问题。

The first one is that during this time you need just cooperation.

第一个是，这段时间你需要的只是合作。

A lot of money for this military industry.

这个军事工业需要很多钱。

In Ukraine or in Europe, with India, Saudi Arabia, and the United States, you need a lot of money.

在乌克兰或在欧洲，在印度、沙特阿拉伯和美国，你需要很多钱。

So the question is where you will get it.

所以问题是你从哪里得到它。

My answer was to Trump.

我的回答是特朗普。

I said this is one of the security guarantees.

我说这是安全保障之一。

Take 300 billions of frozen Russian assets.

拿3000亿冻结的俄罗斯资产来说。

We will take it.

我们会接受它。

Take money, what we need for our interior production, and we will buy all the weapons from the United States.

拿走我们内部生产所需的钱，我们将从美国购买所有武器。

1:41:35 We don’t need gifts from the United States.

我们不需要美国的礼物。

It will be very good for your industry, for the United States.

这对你们的行业、对美国来说都是非常有好处的。

We will put money there.

我们会把钱放在那里。

Russian money, not Ukrainian, not European.

俄罗斯的钱，不是乌克兰的，也不是欧洲的。

Russian money, Russian assets.

俄罗斯的钱，俄罗斯的资产。

They have to pay for this.

他们必须为此付出代价。

We will put it and we will make it.

我们将把它放好，我们也会做到。

This is one of security guarantees.

这是安全保障之一。

Yes, of course.

是的当然。

Because this is a military guarantee.

因为这是军事保证。

Yes.

是的。

But then the second you said that energy price and a lot of sanctions on products and the Russian shadow fleet and etc. That is the second answer we spoke about before.

但第二个你提到能源价格以及对产品和俄罗斯影子舰队等的大量制裁。这是我们之前谈到的第二个答案。

Yes put more sanctions on them.

是的，对他们实施更多制裁。

More sanctions.

更多制裁。

It’s okay, but not to take off sanctions.

没关系，但不能取消制裁。

It’s okay with you, but it’s not going to be okay with the president of Russia.

你可以接受，但俄罗斯总统就不会接受。

Yes, but I’m not thinking how it’ll be very good for him.

是的，但我不认为这对他有什么好处。

1:42:24 He’s still a killer.

他仍然是一个杀手。

I understand, but unfortunately the reality is that a compromise is needed in order to reach an agreement.

我理解，但不幸的是，现实是需要妥协才能达成协议。

So in your understanding, the fact that he is not in jail after all the murders, he’s not in jail assuming all the murders and no one in the world is able to put him in his place, send him to prison.

所以按照你的理解，事实是，在发生了所有谋杀案后，他并没有入狱，假设所有谋杀案发生后，他并没有入狱，世界上没有人能够把他放在他的位置上，把他送进监狱。

1:42:35 Do you think this is a small compromise?

你认为这是一个小小的妥协吗？

This is not a small compromise.

这是一个不小的妥协。

1:42:50 And to forgive him will not be a small compromise.

而原谅他将是一个不小的妥协。

To forgive.

原谅。

1:42:55 No one will forgive.

没有人会原谅。

It is absolutely impossible to forgive him.

想要原谅他，是绝对不可能的。

We cannot get into the head and soul of a person who lost their family.

我们无法深入了解失去家人的人的头脑和灵魂。

Nobody never will accept this.

没有人永远不会接受这一点。

Absolutely impossible.

绝对不可能。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

Do you have children?

你有小孩吗？

No, not yet.

不，还没有。

1:43:09 But I would like to.

但我愿意。

Yes.

是的。

1:43:11 God bless.

上帝保佑。

And this is the most important thing in life, and they simply took away the most precious thing from you.

而这才是生命中最重要的东西，他们却夺走了你最珍贵的东西。

Will you ask who ruined your life before going to rip their head off?

在砍下他们的头之前，你会问谁毁了你的生活吗？

I’m just curious.

我只是好奇。

They took your child away.

他们把你的孩子带走了。

Are you going to ask who did this?

你想问这是谁干的吗？

And they will answer that that dude did this.

他们会回答说是那个家伙干的。

You will say, “Oh, well then there are no questions.” No, no, no.

你会说：“哦，那么就没有问题了。”不，不，不。

You will go fucking hell and bite their head off and it will be fair.

你会去他妈的地狱，咬掉他们的头，这将是公平的。

Can murderers be forgiven?

杀人犯可以被原谅吗？

That’s why you make security guarantees.

这就是您做出安全保证的原因。

What I told you, for those who are here and what we control and what will not happen.

我告诉你的，对于那些在这里的人以及我们控制的和不会发生的事情。

1:43:52 And that those who lost, we will never forget in a matter of time.

而那些失去的人，我们将永远不会忘记。

But when you gave us NATO, I just said this means that after a while, everything I said about NATO.

但是当你给我们北约时，我只是说这意味着过了一段时间，我所说的关于北约的一切。

After a while, Ukraine will not go against Russia and Russia will not go against Ukraine because you are in NATO.

一段时间后，乌克兰不会与俄罗斯对抗，俄罗斯也不会与乌克兰对抗，因为你在北约。

I am just saying is not that a compromise?

我只是说这不是妥协吗？

NATO is a compromise.

北约是一种妥协。

This is not just a security guarantee, in my opinion.

在我看来，这不仅仅是一种安全保证。

Look, when rockets were attacking Israel and Israel is not in NATO.

看，当火箭袭击以色列时，以色列并不在北约。

NATO countries, aircrafts were deployed.

北约国家出动飞机。

The air defense worked, operated by different Middle Eastern countries.

不同中东国家的防空系统发挥了作用。

1:44:44 These are also security guarantees.

这些也是安全保障。

And by the way, Israel has nuclear weapons.

顺便说一句，以色列拥有核武器。

So why do they need NATO when in fact they have more than NATO has?

那么，为什么他们需要北约，而实际上他们拥有的比北约更多呢？

The American, British and French aviation stepped in.

美国、英国和法国航空介入。

There was ADA.

有《美国残疾人法》。

I don’t remember from Jordan.

我不记得乔丹了。

Listen, thousands of missiles were shot down that way.

听着，数千枚导弹就是这样被击落的。

What is this?

这是什么？

So it’s a guarantee of safety.

所以这是安全的保证。

It’s just that it’s not called NATO.

只是它不叫北约。

Is some Uncle Vova irritated by the word NATO?

沃瓦叔叔是否对北约这个词感到恼火？

There’s a problem with the word and I think he’s simply irritated by people who are alive and living here.

这个词有问题，我认为他只是对还活着并生活在这里的人感到恼火。

If you believe this, it will be very difficult to negotiate.

如果你相信这一点，谈判就会变得非常困难。

1:45:33 If you think that the president of a country is completely crazy, it is really hard to come to an agreement with him.

如果你认为一个国家的总统完全疯了，那真的很难与他达成一致。

You have to look at him as a serious person who loves his country and loves the people in his country.

你必须把他视为一个认真的人，热爱他的国家，热爱他的国家的人民。

And he conducts, yes, destructive military actions.

是的，他进行了破坏性的军事行动。

Who are you talking about now?

你现在在说谁？

1:45:55 Who loves his country?

谁爱他的国家？

Putin.

普京。

1:45:56 Do you think he doesn’t love his country?

你认为他不爱他的国家吗？

No.

不。

1:46:00 What is his country?

他的国家是什么？

He happened to consider Ukraine, his country.

他碰巧将乌克兰视为他的国家。

What is his country?

他的国家是什么？

Explain it.

解释一下。

Tomorrow he will say that it’s America.

明天他会说这是美国。

No pity for the Chechens.

对车臣人没有怜悯。

Do they look like Russians?

他们看起来像俄罗斯人吗？

Do they speak Russian?

他们说俄语吗？

Of course, they learn in schools like anywhere there’s been Russification.

当然，他们在学校学习，就像俄罗斯化的任何地方一样。

Who are the Chechens?

车臣人是谁？

A different people, another faith, other people, another language.

不同的人，不同的信仰，不同的人，不同的语言。

A million eliminated.

淘汰一百万。

And eliminated how?

又是如何淘汰的呢？

How did he kill them?

他是怎么杀掉他们的？

With love?

有爱？

I know fuck by hugging.

我知道通过拥抱他妈的。

In Ukrainian, as we say, “Strangling by hugging.

正如我们所说，乌克兰语是“拥抱窒息”。

I love you so, so much.

我非常非常爱你。

I love you so much that I want to kill you.” That’s his love.

我是如此爱你，以至于我想杀了你。”那是他的爱。

1:46:55 And that’s not love.

那不是爱。

You are mistaken.

你错了。

He does not love his people.

他不爱他的人民。

He loves his inner circle.

他热爱他的核心圈子。

It’s only a small part of the people.

这只是一小部分人。

He doesn’t love them.

他不爱他们。

Why?

为什么？

I’ll explain.

我会解释一下。

You cannot send your people to another land knowing that they will die.

你不能把你的人民送到另一片土地，因为你知道他们会死。

Children, my daughter, she is 20 years old.

孩子们，我的女儿，她已经20岁了。

For me, This is a child.

对我来说，这就是一个孩子。

She’s already an adult of course, but she’s a child.

当然，她已经是成年人了，但她还是个孩子。

The boys he sends are 18 years old.

他派来的男孩都18岁了。

They are children.

他们是孩子。

He sends them.

他派他们去。

It’s not that fascists came to his land and he needs to defend it.

并不是法西斯分子来到了他的土地，他需要保卫它。

He came to ours and he sent them Chechnya.

他来到我们这里，然后把他们送到了车臣。

He sent them Syria, he sent them Africa.

他送给他们叙利亚，他送给他们非洲。

He sent them Georgia.

他把他们送到了乔治亚州。

1:48:06 He sent them Moldova.

他把他们送到了摩尔多瓦。

Transnistria, that was before him.

德涅斯特河沿岸，那是在他面前。

Fine, we can leave that aside.

好吧，我们可以把它放在一边。

He has enough sins of his own.

他自己的罪孽已经够多了。

And then there’s Ukraine, the largest part.

然后是最大的部分乌克兰。

788,000 killed or wounded Russians.

788,000 名俄罗斯人死伤。

He calls them all Russians.

他称他们都是俄罗斯人。

Even those who don’t know how to speak Russian on his territory of Russia, everything they’ve enslaved.

即使是那些在他的俄罗斯领土上不知道如何说俄语的人，他们也奴役了一切。

Yes.

是的。

Proud [foreign language 01:48:48].

骄傲[外语01:48:48]。

So I wonder, is that love?

所以我想知道，这就是爱吗？

What love is this?

这是什么爱情？

And for what?

为了什么？

Does he love his people?

他爱他的人民吗？

No.

不。

Does he love his land?

他爱他的土地吗？

His country is bigger than America.

他的国家比美国还大。

How much land do you need?

你需要多少土地？

America is huge.

美国很大。

America is simply an outstanding country.

美国简直是一个杰出的国家。

Outstanding country.

杰出的国家。

1:49:09 Russia is bigger.

俄罗斯更大。

Well, just bigger.

嗯，只是更大一点。

So ask yourself, does he love them?

所以问问自己，他爱他们吗？

What is he doing and what does he love?

他在做什么、喜欢什么？

Do you think he’s been everywhere in his Russia?

你认为他在俄罗斯到处都是吗？

It’s impossible to get around it.

这是不可能绕过它的。

He hasn’t been everywhere.

他并没有去过所有地方。

He just hasn’t.

他只是没有。

Well, I believe that Donald Trump loves America and I don’t think he has been to every single American city.

嗯，我相信唐纳德·特朗普热爱美国，而且我不认为他去过美国的每一个城市。

No, no, no.

不，不，不。

1:49:39 I saw his rallies.

我看到了他的集会。

So many rallies.

这么多集会。

No, no.

不，不。

Let’s be honest.

说实话。

Let’s be honest.

说实话。

He had it and I saw it and it’s very difficult.

他拥有它，我也看到了它，这非常困难。

I mean he’s not 18.

我的意思是他还不到18岁。

Yes, but he’s strong and this is his will.

是的，但他很坚强，这是他的意志。

Everywhere where the war is, I’m sure, I pray to God it never will be on your land.

我确信，无论哪里有战争，我都会向上帝祈祷，战争永远不会发生在你们的土地上。

Yes.

是的。

And I’m sure that it will not be, but I’m sure that if you have in some region the problems, how to say, earthquake, hurricane you have it all.

我确信不会，但我确信，如果某个地区出现了问题，怎么说呢，地震、飓风，那么一切都会发生。

Well, I’m sure that President Trump would be there after one day, two or three days.

嗯，我确信特朗普总统一天、两三天后就会到那里。

I don’t know the security of all these things, but he will be.

我不知道所有这些事情的安全性，但他会的。

Otherwise, how will people look at him?

不然别人会怎么看他？

1:50:29 Yes, of course he will.

是的，他当然会。

Of course the same about me.

当然我也一样。

I’m not comparing myself with him.

我不是在和他比较。

I’m just where it is difficult for people, I have to come.

我只是在人为难的地方，我必须来。

The next question is very simple.

下一个问题很简单。

Region, Kursk region.

地区，库尔斯克州。

The operation there.

那里的操作。

Was Putin in Kursk during four months?

普京在库尔斯克呆了四个月吗？

No.

不。

Listen, I have tremendous respect for you, admiration for many reasons.

听着，我对你怀有极大的敬意和钦佩，原因有很多。

1:51:00 One of which is you stayed in Kiev and another one is that you visit the front and you talk to the soldiers in the front and you talk to people all across Ukraine.

其中之一是你留在基辅，另一件事是你访问前线，与前线的士兵交谈，与乌克兰各地的人们交谈。

Absolutely tremendous respect for that.

对此绝对表示极大的尊重。

And not enough people say that.

而且这么说的人还不够多。

I had a conversation with Tucker Carlson for example, and I said that, “You’re hero for staying in Kiev.” And he said, “Well, he just did a thing that every leader should do.” But I think not enough leaders do the thing that every leader should do.

例如，我与塔克·卡尔森进行了交谈，我说：“你留在基辅是英雄。”他说：“好吧，他只是做了一件每个领导人都应该做的事情。”但我认为没有足够的领导者做每个领导者都应该做的事情。

So tremendous respect.

如此巨大的尊重。

I agree with you totally.

我完全同意你的观点。

1:51:44 Yes a leader should go to the front of a war.

是的，领导人应该去战争前线。

That said, America has waged wars all across the world.

也就是说，美国在世界各地发动了战争。

The war in Afghanistan and Iraq costs $9 trillion and killed over a million people.

阿富汗和伊拉克战争耗资 9 万亿美元，造成超过 100 万人死亡。

War is hell.

战争就是地狱。

And just because war is waged in terrible ways that it is does not mean the leader does not love their country.

仅仅因为战争以可怕的方式发动并不意味着领导人不爱他们的国家。

But I take your point.

但我同意你的观点。

I once again have a dream that even if there’s hate, that you sit down with Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin and you find a way to peace.

我再次梦想，即使存在仇恨，你也能与唐纳德·特朗普和弗拉基米尔·普京坐下来，找到和平之道。

Let me ask you a question.

让我问你一个问题。

What do you think?

你怎么认为？

1:52:33 Will there ever be a day when the Ukrainian people forgive the Russian people and both peoples will travel back and forth again and marry each other, rekindle and form friendships?

是否有一天，乌克兰人民会原谅俄罗斯人民，两国人民会再次往返、结婚、重燃友谊？

Will there be such a time in the future?

以后还会有这样的时候吗？

I think history has long answered this question.

我想历史早已回答了这个问题。

1:52:47 I don’t know how be for us.

我不知道我们该怎么办。

It’ll be in the future without a doubt.

毫无疑问，这将是未来的事。

History has shown this time.

历史已经证明了这一次。

And again after every devastating war, one generation, one country recognizes that it was an aggressor.

在每一次毁灭性的战争之后，一代人之后，一个国家再次认识到它是一个侵略者。

And it comes to realize this is impossible to forgive.

人们逐渐意识到这是不可能原谅的。

This is precisely the kind of education they’ve had in Germany for many years.

这正是他们多年来在德国接受的教育。

Even though these children had nothing to do with it.

尽管这些孩子与此事无关。

It was their grandfathers who participated and not all of them were participants of Nazi Germany’s war essentially against the world.

参加者是他们的祖父，但并非所有人都是纳粹德国本质上针对世界的战争的参与者。

Yes.

是的。

And against life.

并反对生命。

And therefore they’re still apologizing.

因此他们仍在道歉。

1:53:54 Apologizing is not easy.

道歉并不容易。

They know that they were the aggressors, they were guilty.

他们知道自己是侵略者，他们有罪。

They do not look for compromise in history.

他们不寻求历史的妥协。

Compromise in itself buys time.

妥协本身就能赢得时间。

And they understand this.

他们明白这一点。

There are convicted murderers condemned both historically and by their own people.

有些被定罪的杀人犯受到历史和本国人民的谴责。

Reparations have been paid and security guarantees have been established by the way.

赔偿已经支付，安全保障也已经建立。

And all this is done.

这一切都完成了。

And when all this is done and recognized, in any case, people develop relations with each other.

无论如何，当所有这些都完成并得到认可时，人们就会相互发展关系。

That’s clear.

这很清楚。

But it can only happen the way it always has, always has in history.

但它只能按照历史上一贯的方式发生。

Russia will have to apologize.

俄罗斯将不得不道歉。

It will.

会的。

1:54:45 This will happen because they are guilty.

这会发生，因为他们有罪。

They’re guilty.

他们有罪。

And as I told you, the guilty are different.

正如我告诉过你的，有罪的人是不同的。

Both those who participated and those who remain silent because silence is also about participating, in my opinion.

无论是参与的人还是保持沉默的人，在我看来，沉默也是一种参与。

Can I ask about Donald Trump?

我可以问一下唐纳德·特朗普吗？

1:55:07 We’ve already mentioned him a lot, but let’s focus there.

我们已经多次提到过他，但让我们重点关注一下。

What do you admire?

你欣赏什么？

What do you respect about Donald Trump?

您尊重唐纳德·特朗普的哪些方面？

And also maybe why do you think he won overwhelmingly the election in 2024, that American people chose him?

也许您认为为什么他以压倒性优势赢得了 2024 年大选，美国人民选择了他？

He was stronger.

他更坚强了。

1:55:28 He was much more stronger than Kamala Harris.

他比卡玛拉·哈里斯强得多。

Biden first and then Kamala Harris.

首先是拜登，然后是卡马拉·哈里斯。

Yes.

是的。

He showed that he can intellectually and physically.

他证明了他在智力和身体上都可以。

It wasn’t important point to show that if you want to have a strong country, you have to be strong.

重要的是要表明，如果你想拥有一个强大的国家，你就必须强大。

And he was strong.

而且他很坚强。

And this number of rallies, what I said is not a simple thing.

而这个集会的数量，我说的并不是一件简单的事情。

He showed that he can.

他证明了他可以。

He’s strong.

他很坚强。

So he doesn’t have any questions with his, I mean this age and et cetera.

所以他对他的，我的意思是这个年龄等等没有任何疑问。

Nothing.

没有什么。

He is young.

他很年轻。

He is young here and his brain works.

他在这里很年轻，他的大脑运转良好。

So I think it’s important, very important.

所以我觉得这很重要，非常重要。

And of course a lot of interior questions.

当然还有很多内部问题。

1:56:15 I understand the prices and et cetera.

我了解价格等等。

Economic questions and you have the questions with other things.

经济问题，还有其他问题。

Immigration.

移民。

A lot of things.

很多事情。

1:56:26 I understand.

我明白。

So maybe he answered on those questions, which people had.

所以也许他回答了人们提出的这些问题。

One of the questions-

问题之一——

That he will finish the war.

他将结束战争。

That he will finish the war.

他将结束战争。

For me, this is the main question, but I said that for him, he’s the President of the United States.

对我来说，这是主要问题，但我说对他来说，他是美国总统。

1:56:38 For him, his priority is his questions in the United States.

对他来说，他的首要任务是在美国解决问题。

And I understand and I respect it, but the second he was speaking about the world, yes, he said that he will finish the war.

我理解并且尊重这一点，但是当他谈到世界时，是的，他说他将结束战争。

And I hope very much because I think that our people really support his idea.

我非常希望，因为我认为我们的人民真的支持他的想法。

And that’s why I said it is for me.

这就是为什么我说它适合我。

It’s very, very important to have enough people around him who will have connections with him, with the right things.

在他身边有足够多的人与他建立联系，进行正确的事情，这是非常非常重要的。

1:57:21 For me, the truth is very right things.

对我来说，真理是非常正确的事情。

What’s going on really in the battlefield, what’s going on really with Putin and Russia, what he really wants and that is just to have it.

战场上到底发生了什么，普京和俄罗斯到底发生了什么，他真正想要的就是得到它。

Before any decision, you have to be at the same level of information.

在做出任何决定之前，您必须处于相同的信息水平。

Really we need him to know everything from us, from you, from people in Ukraine, from people around who are really afraid.

确实，我们需要他从我们、你们、乌克兰人民、周围真正害怕的人那里了解一切。

Afraid that Putin doesn’t want to stop the war, afraid that he will come back with his aggression.

害怕普京不想停止战争，害怕他会带着侵略回来。

So first of all, I should mention that our conversation today will be translated and dubbed into Ukrainian, English, Russian, other languages, Spanish.

首先，我要提一下，我们今天的对话将被翻译和配音成乌克兰语、英语、俄语、其他语言、西班牙语。

1:58:07 So you’re in your voice.

所以你的声音就是你的。

So there are great guys originally from Poland.

所以有一些来自波兰的伟大人物。

It’s a company called ElevenLabs.

这是一家名为 ElevenLabs 的公司。

They’ve trained an AI.

他们训练了一个人工智能。

Artificial intelligence sounds truly remarkable in your voice.

人工智能在你的声音中听起来确实很了不起。

You have the freedom to speak in any language you choose, but no matter what, you will always find yourself returning to speaking in Ukrainian.

你可以自由地用你选择的任何语言说话，但无论如何，你总会发现自己又回到了用乌克兰语说话。

That is, when you talk about Donald Trump, you can do it in Ukrainian or Russian.

也就是说，当你谈论唐纳德·特朗普时，你可以用乌克兰语或俄语。

Everybody understands.

大家都明白。

Everybody understands.

大家都明白。

1:58:50 But you said that there’s some things about the war that maybe Americans don’t understand.

但你说，关于这场战争，有些事情可能是美国人不理解的。

So we talked about Putin, we talked about the security guarantees, the reality of war, what’s happening on the ground?

所以我们谈论了普京，我们谈论了安全保障，战争的现实，当地正在发生什么？

What do you think that people should understand?

您认为人们应该理解什么？

First of all, they have to understand the idea of Putin’s war.

首先，他们必须了解普京战争的理念。

1:59:13 It is very important for him.

这对他来说非常重要。

I consider this process.

我考虑这个过程。

I think it is very important for him not to give Ukraine independence.

我认为不让乌克兰独立对他来说非常重要。

To prevent Ukraine from developing as an independent country for him, influence.

为了阻止乌克兰发展成为一个独立国家，对他来说影响力很大。

Influence on Ukraine cannot be lost.

对乌克兰的影响力不能丧失。

And four, for him, it is like…

第四，对他来说，就像……

I think for him, this is such a goal in this last mile and certainly for him, the last mile and of his political life.

我认为对他来说，这是最后一英里的目标，当然对他来说，也是他政治生涯的最后一英里。

And I think that this is the goal for him.

我认为这就是他的目标。

The second story, I do not want to talk about these banalities that he wants to return all the territories of the Soviet Union influence over them.

第二个故事，我不想谈论这些陈词滥调，他想归还苏联对他们的所有领土的影响力。

He does this little by little.

他一点一点地这样做。

2:00:22 I just don’t want to…

我只是不想……

People need to know details.

人们需要了解细节。

For example, Georgia, which was headed towards the EU and NATO completely turns towards Russia regardless of the fact that they have frozen conflicts.

例如，原本倾向欧盟和北约的格鲁吉亚，尽管冻结了冲突，却完全转向俄罗斯。

They have in Abkhazia what we have with Donbas, which is controlled by militant rebels.

他们在阿布哈兹的情况与我们在顿巴斯的情况一样，顿巴斯由武装叛乱分子控制。

Abkhazia is not developing.

阿布哈兹没有发展。

It’s just a very beautiful part of Georgia that has died.

这只是佐治亚州一个非常美丽的部分已经消失了。

And if you have the opportunity, then go there someday.

如果有机会的话，有一天就去那里吧。

You will understand.

你会明白的。

It simply died because Putin wanted to.

它只是因为普京想要而死。

He wanted not to allow them to develop because a frozen conflict means that you will not be accepted in the EU and certainly will not be accepted into NATO.

他不想让它们发展，因为冻结冲突意味着你不会被欧盟接受，当然也不会被北约接受。

2:01:02 Because right now, yes, they do not take you because of a frozen conflict.

因为现在，是的，他们不会因为冻结的冲突而带走你。

And this is what Putin did.

这就是普京所做的。

It’s very important for him not to lose this influence.

对他来说，不要失去这种影响力非常重要。

That is he turned back Georgia, young people, students, everyone leaves.

那就是他转身返回格鲁吉亚，年轻人、学生，所有人都离开了。

And this is a fact.

这是事实。

Georgia is quite small and they will leave.

格鲁吉亚很小，他们会离开。

They want to live in Europe.

他们想住在欧洲。

They want to develop.

他们想要发展。

Somebody in the United States, somebody in Europe, somebody in the EU, somebody in Britain.

美国的某人，欧洲的某人，欧盟的某人，英国的某人。

He will now fight for the Moldovan parliament.

他现在将为摩尔多瓦议会而战。

This is his second step.

这是他的第二步。

You will see in April what happens.

四月份你就会看到会发生什么。

You will see he will start turning Moldova away from Europe.

你会看到他将开始让摩尔多瓦远离欧洲。

2:01:42 Although they want to go there, he does not care.

虽然他们想去那里，但他不在乎。

They will be a pro-Russian party and they will do something with the current president because she has won the elections.

他们将是一个亲俄罗斯政党，他们将与现任总统做一些事情，因为她赢得了选举。

She is pro-European but he will turn this back.

她是亲欧洲的，但他会扭转局面。

The next steps are completely clear.

接下来的步骤是完全清楚的。

He will do everything wherever he has lost influence, where there was influence of the Soviet Union.

凡是他失去影响力的地方，凡是有苏联影响力的地方，他都会做一切事情。

He’ll turn it back as much as possible.

他会尽可能地扭转局面。

And we understand at what price.

我们知道价格是多少。

You have seen Syria, you saw these tortures.

你见过叙利亚，你见过这些酷刑。

What we saw in [inaudible 02:02:19], what we saw everywhere we came and where our territories were occupied.

我们在[听不清02:02:19]中所看到的，我们所到之处以及我们的领土被占领的地方所看到的。

2:02:24 In Syria, the same happened.

在叙利亚，同样的情况也发生了。

There were a thousand people there.

那里有一千人。

And you have seen it.

你已经看到了。

Scientists were found.

科学家们发现了。

Doctors were found.

医生被发现了。

It’s clear that any people are capable of generating their own opinion.

显然，任何人都有能力产生自己的意见。

So their skills developed society, everyone who can express an opinion, everyone who can shape the independence and maturity of society.

所以他们的技能发展了社会，每个人都可以表达意见，每个人都可以塑造社会的独立和成熟。

Such people are not needed.

不需要这样的人。

And he wants this in Ukraine.

他希望在乌克兰实现这一点。

And therefore everyone should understand that Ukraine is like a large wall.

因此每个人都应该明白乌克兰就像一堵大墙。

From that Europe, and if God willing, President Trump does not withdraw from NATO.

如果上帝愿意，特朗普总统不会从欧洲退出北约。

Because again, I believe that this is the biggest risk.

因为我再次相信这是最大的风险。

2:03:15 I think two steps.

我认为分两步走。

Two steps that Putin would like to see is a weak NATO and this without Trump.

普京希望看到的两个步骤是北约的软弱和特朗普的缺席。

And a weak Ukraine, which cannot survive on the battlefield, simply cannot survive and prevent me from building a strong relationship with Trump.

弱小的乌克兰无法在战场上生存，根本无法生存并阻止我与特朗普建立牢固的关系。

I think these two steps, leaving NATO and Ukraine’s weakness will lead to a large-scale war, which Putin will wage on all the territories of that post-Soviet Europe.

我认为这两个步骤，让北约和乌克兰变得软弱，将导致一场大规模战争，普京将在后苏联欧洲的所有领土上发动这场​​战争。

I mean Soviet Europe, not post-Soviet, but post-World War II period.

我指的是苏维埃欧洲，不是后苏联时期，而是二战后时期。

That is Soviet era Europe, in order to completely control everything there.

那是苏联时代的欧洲，才能完全控制那里的一切。

This is what he will do.

这就是他要做的。

And besides this, this will happen in any case.

除此之外，这种情况无论如何都会发生。

2:04:19 Even if the US is thinking about leaving NATO, this war will affect the United States because North Korea is the first sign.

即使美国考虑离开北约，这场战争也会影响美国，因为朝鲜是第一个迹象。

North Korean skills, North Korean knowledge, which they are now gaining from this war.

他们现在从这场战争中获得了朝鲜的技能、朝鲜的知识。

These include mastering new technologies, large-scale drones, missiles, how it works, the kind of technological war we have today, cyber war, etc. All these skills, Korea will bring home and scale up in that region.

其中包括掌握新技术、大型无人机、导弹、其工作原理、我们今天所面临的技术战争、网络战争等。韩国将把所有这些技能带回家并在该地区扩大规模。

And this will be a risk for the Pacific region.

这对太平洋地区来说将是一个风险。

Security, first and foremost.

安全是第一位的。

For Japan and for South Korea, they will face these risks a hundred percent and it will be clear that Taiwan will also have to face them.

对于日本和韩国来说，他们将百分百面临这些风险，显然台湾也必须面对这些风险。

2:05:18 Without this, it is impossible.

没有这个，这是不可能的。

This is already happening.

这已经发生了。

This is already happening.

这已经发生了。

Therefore, I think that President Trump has all power to stop Putin and give Ukraine strong security guarantees.

因此，我认为特朗普总统完全有能力阻止普京，并给予乌克兰强有力的安全保障。

We’ve been talking for two hours.

我们已经聊了两个小时了。

2:05:40 Have to pause.

不得不暂停一下。

You want to take the break?

你想休息一下吗？

We will make a pause.

我们将暂停一下。

2:05:45 We can have coffee, right?

我们可以喝咖啡，对吗？

Coffee.

咖啡。

Let’s do it.

我们开始做吧。

2:05:50 And give the interpreter, he’s struggling.

给翻译，他很挣扎。

Some water.

一些水。

We keep switching languages

我们不断切换语言

Like a dragon.

就像一条龙。

2:06:01 Three heads, three translators.

三个头，三个翻译。

So one of the difficult decisions you had to make when the war began is to enact martial law.

因此，战争开始时你必须做出的艰难决定之一就是颁布戒严令。

2:06:05 So when you won the presidency, you were the warrior for freedom.

因此，当您赢得总统职位时，您就是自由战士。

In fact, this war is for freedom.

事实上，这场战争是为了自由。

For freedom of the individual, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom.

为了个人自由、言论自由、宗教自由、自由。

But a lot of freedoms had to be curtailed, sacrificed in this fight because there’s so much focus on the war.

但在这场战斗中，许多自由必须被限制和牺牲，因为人们对战争的关注如此之多。

Do you see the tension?

你看到紧张气氛了吗？

Do you feel the tension of that, the sacrifice that had to be made in democracy, in freedom, in fighting this war?

你是否感受到了这种紧张感，以及在民主、自由和这场战争中必须做出的牺牲？

In any case, this war is for our freedom.

无论如何，这场战争是为了我们的自由。

2:06:52 Generally speaking.

一般来说。

To be honest, when you understand, over time when the war passes, you understand that your main values are at home.

老实说，当你明白，随着时间的推移，当战争过去时，你就会明白你的主要价值观是在家里。

This is your home, your children, your love, God willing, parents are alive and if not alive, then their memory, visiting their grave, choosing how to work, how much, preferably choosing where to work.

这是你的家，你的孩子，你的爱，上帝保佑，父母还活着，如果不在世，那么他们的记忆，参观他们的坟墓，选择如何工作，工作多少，最好选择在哪里工作。

All this is freedom.

这一切都是自由。

Freedoms are not just a desire, they are an opportunity.

自由不仅仅是一种愿望，更是一种机会。

In any case, you are right because war is a limitation of opportunities.

无论如何，你是对的，因为战争是机会的限制。

In any case, you fight for these opportunities.

无论如何，你都会为这些机会而奋斗。

Your parents and God gave you life, right?

你的父母和上帝给了你生命，对吗？

2:07:57 You fight for your life.

你为你的生命而战。

Your life.

你的生活。

But we need to understand that first there is a war.

但我们需要明白，首先有一场战争。

And then-

然后——

2:08:00 But we need to understand that first there is a war and then martial law is introduced.

但我们需要明白，首先有战争，然后才实行戒严。

Martial law is not introduced because someone wanted to.

戒严法的引入并不是因为有人愿意。

You say, this is not Pinochet, this is not Pinochet, and so on.

你说，这不是皮诺切特，这不是皮诺切特，等等。

This is a completely different story.

这是一个完全不同的故事。

An aggressor came and according to your legislation, if the border is violated, if there is armed aggression, you have all this written down long ago, written out in legislation, you introduce martial law and the introduction of martial law everywhere at all times means, in any case, a restriction of opportunities.

侵略者来了，根据你们的立法，如果边界被侵犯，如果有武装侵略，你们早就把这一切都写下来了，写在立法中，你们实行戒严法，而在任何时候、任何地方实行戒严法，无论如何，都意味着限制机会。

If opportunities are limited, rights and freedoms are restricted.

如果机会有限，权利和自由就会受到限制。

Therefore, the war itself restricts rights and freedoms.

因此，战争本身就限制了权利和自由。

Yes, and you can’t do anything about it.

是的，你对此无能为力。

We try, honestly, to balance as much as possible.

老实说，我们尝试尽可能地保持平衡。

I believe that the business sector works despite the difficulties of the war, and we do everything somewhere, there somewhere to reduce some load.

我相信，尽管有战争的困难，商业部门仍然在运转，我们在某个地方、某个地方尽一切努力来减轻一些负担。

Unfortunately, we cannot reduce taxes.

不幸的是，我们无法减税。

2:09:12 On the contrary, military tax is used for war.

相反，军税是用于战争的。

You need to take money somewhere.

你需要把钱带到某个地方。

This, by the way, is about the fact that the US gave us a lot and Europe too, but compared to how much we needed for the war, this is not all.

顺便说一句，这是因为美国给了我们很多，欧洲也给了我们很多，但与我们战争所需的相比，这还不是全部。

As for military salaries, you know that we could not pay the salaries of a million strong army.

至于军饷，你知道我们拿不出百万大军的军饷。

We could not pay it using the money from our partners.

我们无法用合作伙伴的钱来支付。

These are all expenses.

这些都是费用。

This is all the money that the country and people have accumulated.

这是国家和人民积累的全部钱。

You can’t do anything.

你什么也做不了。

I really want to reduce taxes.

我真的很想减税。

I will tell you frankly, I really want to.

我坦白地告诉你，我真的很想。

2:09:55 Well, I think that the whole new tax system, new deregulation, new steps, new reforms, all this will be after the war.

嗯，我认为整个新的税收制度，新的放松管制，新的步骤，新的改革，所有这一切都将在战后进行。

Although there is something to brag about, this is proof.

虽然有吹牛的地方，但这就是证据。

And this is a document because if you want to get a candidacy for European Union, you must implement the appropriate number of reforms.

这是一份文件，因为如果你想获得欧盟候选资格，你必须实施适当数量的改革。

We do everything.

我们做一切事情。

During the war, we voted for many reforms, including anti-corruption, banking reforms, land reforms, major reforms.

战争期间，我们投票支持了许多改革，包括反腐败、银行改革、土地改革等重大改革。

We started a large privatization and the war did not stop us.

我们开始了大规模的私有化，战争并没有阻止我们。

Yes, it slowed down, but we went through a lot.

是的，它放慢了速度，但我们经历了很多。

When do you think you’ll hold elections?

您认为什么时候会举行选举？

2:10:42 Because for people who don’t know, part of the martial law elections were suspended and they were delayed and delayed and delayed and I think the next sort of plan is in February of 2025, but when do you think there will be presidential elections in Ukraine?

因为对于不知道的人来说，部分戒严选举被暂停，并且被推迟、推迟、推迟，我认为下一个计划是在 2025 年 2 月，但您认为乌克兰什么时候会举行总统选举？

Elections were postponed once.

选举被推迟一次。

2:11:02 They were not delayed, to be clear.

需要明确的是，他们并没有被延误。

Elections did not take place in 2024 that year.

2024 年当年没有举行选举。

First of all, we need to understand the constitution.

首先，我们需要了解宪法。

They were scheduled to be held in the spring of 2024.

它们原定于 2024 年春季举行。

Due to martial law under the constitution, you cannot do this.

由于宪法规定的戒严令，你不能这样做。

These are the presidential elections.

这些是总统选举。

The parliamentary elections did not take place in the fall of 2024 according to the constitution.

根据宪法，2024年秋季没有举行议会选举。

Yes, there are security things, there is the constitution, but there are security things.

是的，有安全的事情，有宪法，但也有安全的事情。

That is, everyone in Ukraine understands that this cannot be done until the war is over or legislation needs to be changed.

也就是说，乌克兰的每个人都明白，在战争结束或需要修改立法之前，这是不可能做到的。

2:11:52 I believe that elections will take place immediately after the end of martial law.

我相信戒严结束后将立即举行选举。

This is according to the law or members of the parliament need to get together and change legislation, which will be very difficult to do because society is against it.

这是根据法律或者议会成员需要聚集在一起修改立法，这将是非常困难的，因为社会是反对的。

Why society against it?

为什么社会反对呢？

It is understandable why.

这是可以理解的。

Because we want elections that we want to trust.

因为我们想要我们想要信任的选举。

8.5 million people went abroad.

850万人出国。

The infrastructure needs to be created for these millions of people to vote.

需要为这数百万人投票创建基础设施。

Millions of people in the occupied territories.

被占领土上有数百万人。

I’m not even talking about the occupation of 2014.

我什至不是在谈论 2014 年的占领。

I’m talking about the occupation right now.

我现在正在谈论职业。

What to do with these people?

这些人该怎么办？

This is a difficult question.

这是一个很难的问题。

And one of the most unfair ones is how to vote without having a million soldiers.

最不公平的问题之一是在没有百万士兵的情况下如何投票。

It is impossible.

这是不可能的。

2:12:57 We need to think about how to change the system if the elections are held in times of war, change the legislation, which should include changes to the voting system, to think about online voting.

我们需要考虑如果在战争时期举行选举如何改变制度，改变立法，其中应该包括投票制度的改变，以考虑在线投票。

Everyone is afraid because of certain attacks like cyber attacks and so on, but we need to think about it.

每个人都因为网络攻击等某些攻击而感到害怕，但我们需要思考这一点。

I really think that it’s possible that we can end the war in 2025.

我真的认为我们有可能在 2025 年结束战争。

In January?

一月份？

We’ve already agreed on it.

我们已经同意了。

2:13:29 I would very much like to.

我非常愿意。

I would very much like to-

我非常愿意——

After the war?

战后？

And immediately.

并且立即。

2:13:35 Yes, immediately.

是的，立即。

In the year of the end of the war.

战争结束的那一年。

It’s a fact.

这是事实。

Why?

为什么？

Because when martial law ends, you can immediately vote in parliament to hold elections and then everyone will vote because there are no restrictive measures.

因为当戒严结束后，你可以立即在议会投票举行选举，然后每个人都会投票，因为没有限制措施。

And after they vote, I think elections can be held in 90 days, something like that.

他们投票后，我认为选举可以在 90 天内举行，类似的事情。

Yes.

是的。

And this means that immediately after the end of the war, elections may take place in 90 days.

这意味着战争结束后90天内可能会立即举行选举。

Are you running for reelection?

您正在竞选连任吗？

Even I don’t know, really.

连我自己也不知道，真的。

2:14:14 I don’t know.

我不知道。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

It is a very difficult question.

这是一个非常困难的问题。

It depends on how this war will finish.

这取决于这场战争将如何结束。

It depends on what people will want.

这取决于人们想要什么。

Mostly, it depends on people, first of all, and of course my family.

大多数情况下，这取决于人，首先，当然还有我的家人。

We had no time to speak about it with my family and of course didn’t have a chance because we don’t think about it now.

我们没有时间和家人谈论这件事，当然也没有机会，因为我们现在不考虑这件事。

I mean, it’s something…

我的意思是，这是……

There are a lot of, some, not a lot of, but enough voices in Ukraine from politicians, opposition and et cetera, about this, I guess.

我想，在乌克兰，政界人士、反对派等人士对此有很多，一些，不是很多，但足够多的声音。

But we don’t think really seriously, didn’t think seriously with my family about it.

但我们并没有认真思考，没有和我的家人认真思考这件事。

So this is war.

所以这就是战争。

I mean, how to think about what will be after.

我的意思是，如何思考之后会发生什么。

It’s very difficult, really very difficult.

非常困难，真的非常困难。

If we look at the field of candidates, maybe you can give your opinion about the set of ideas you see out there, including your own about the future of Ukraine.

如果我们看看候选人领域，也许你可以对你看到的一系列想法发表你的看法，包括你对乌克兰未来的看法。

2:15:18 As I understand the candidates include Poroshenko, Zaluzhnyi, Arestovych, Budanov, Klitschko, there are many others.

据我了解，候选人包括波罗申科、扎卢日尼、阿列斯托维奇、布达诺夫、克里琴科，还有很多其他人。

This is the internet speaking to me.

这是互联网在对我说话。

What do you think are the space of ideas that these candidates represent?

您认为这些候选人所代表的思想空间是什么？

I think there can be even a bigger number of candidates.

我认为候选人的数量可能会更多。

2:15:44 Yeah, I don’t really know what will be.

是的，我真的不知道会发生什么。

They have rights to participate if they want to.

如果他们愿意，他们就有权利参与。

Yes, if they really want to, and can, they can go and do what they want, honestly.

是的，如果他们真的愿意并且能够，他们可以诚实地去做他们想做的事。

Most important is what are they doing now?

最重要的是他们现在在做什么？

I think that all these people are famous Ukrainian people and it’s important for them to do everything they can today, not begin any election campaign.

我认为所有这些人都是著名的乌克兰人，对他们来说重要的是今天要尽其所能，而不是开始任何竞选活动。

I think this what can divide our people to have the elections during the war.

我认为这会导致我们的人民在战争期间举行选举产生分歧。

I mean this make steps, speak about elections a lot, make a big mess about it.

我的意思是，这会采取措施，大量谈论选举，把它搞得一团糟。

I think this is not right.

我认为这是不对的。

That’s why I’m not agreeing with some of these people.

这就是为什么我不同意其中一些人的观点。

But they can and I think that they can and maybe some of them will.

但他们可以，而且我认为他们可以，也许其中一些人会。

And it’s okay.

没关系。

It’s normal.

这很正常。

It’s very normal.

这很正常。

Our system differs from the system in the United States.

我们的系统与美国的系统不同。

You have two parties and the parties decide who will be the leader.

你有两个政党，政党决定谁将成为领导者。

And in Ukraine, everybody can participate.

在乌克兰，每个人都可以参与。

Let them.

让他们。

You think you’re going to win the debate?

你认为你会赢得这场辩论吗？

2:16:57 You versus Zaluzhnyi, Poroshenko or Arestovych and you decide to run, do you think you’re going to win the debate or you’re again focused on the war and everybody should be focused-

你对阵扎卢日尼、波罗申科或阿雷斯托维奇，你决定参选，你认为你会赢得辩论，还是你再次专注于战争，每个人都应该专注——

Oh, I’m really focusing on the war and-

哦，我真的很关注战争，而且-

I understand.

我明白了。

…

……

2:17:14 I think the most difficult debate is what will be brought to the table and we spoke about it.

我认为最困难的辩论是将要讨论的内容，我们对此进行了讨论。

It’ll be during the war, how to finish the war.

是在战争期间，如何结束战争。

I think that is my goal because it will be one of my most complicated debates and for any president who is in a war, of course, but I think this is my goal to win those debates and the other things are not for today.

我认为这是我的目标，因为这将是我最复杂的辩论之一，当然，对于任何处于战争中的总统来说，但我认为这是我的目标，赢得这些辩论，其他事情不是今天的事情。

As I said, the dream I have is it’s a historic opportunity to make peace, to make lasting peace soon.

正如我所说，我的梦想是这是一个实现和平的历史性机会，很快就能实现持久和平。

2:17:44 So I’m glad you’re focused on that.

所以我很高兴你专注于此。

Let me ask a question that a lot of people in the United States think about, and I care a lot about the future of Ukraine is corruption.

让我问一个很多美国人都在思考的问题，我也非常关心乌克兰的未来，那就是腐败。

This is something you have cared a lot about for a long time.

这是您长期以来非常关心的事情。

You won the presidency in 2019, in big part your message of fighting corruption.

您在 2019 年赢得了总统职位，很大程度上是因为您传达了反腐败的信息。

But there’s a lot of accusations that during war, I mentioned $9 trillion in the United States, war breeds corruption.

但有很多指责说，在战争期间，我提到美国的9万亿美元，战争滋生了腐败。

So can you speak to that, how you have been fighting corruption and can you respond to the accusations there has been corruption in Ukraine?

那么您能谈谈您是如何打击腐败的吗？您能回应乌克兰存在腐败的指控吗？

It’s very simple.

这很简单。

2:18:42 First of all, we really have a very sophisticated anti-corruption system.

首先，我们确实有非常完善的反腐败体系。

Sophisticated not in the sense that it’s difficult to understand, but in that it really consists of many elements.

复杂并不是指它难以理解，而是指它确实由许多元素组成。

It’s the most sophisticated in all of Europe.

它是全欧洲最先进的。

This is another requirement of the European Union.

这是欧盟的另一项要求。

It was a requirement for Ukraine and for many years, Ukraine was not trusted.

这是对乌克兰的要求，但多年来乌克兰并不被信任。

I want to tell you that under me, we all voted for bills, all the anti-corruption reforms, well, almost all reforms and all anti-corruption bodies today are independent.

我想告诉你们，在我的领导下，我们都投票支持了法案，所有的反腐败改革，嗯，今天几乎所有的改革和所有的反腐败机构都是独立的。

They work as requested.

他们按要求工作。

I still believe that they are not perfect yet.

我仍然相信它们还不完美。

There are many issues.

有很多问题。

There is a judicial system, but also a judicial reform that our partners, the United States plus the EU, demanded from us.

有司法系统，但也有我们的合作伙伴——美国和欧盟——要求我们进行的司法改革。

This is all written out.

这都写出来了。

This is written out in specific laws, in specific decrees, in specific decisions.

这是写在具体法律、具体法令、具体决定中的。

We did this, we’ve done 99% of this.

我们做到了，我们已经做到了99%。

2:19:50 If something has not been done, it means that it is on the way.

如果某件事还没有完成，那就意味着它正在路上。

But in principle, all this exists and there is no such system as we have in Europe.

但原则上，这一切都存在，而且不存在像我们欧洲那样的系统。

To say that we do not have corruption would be lying.

说我们没有腐败是撒谎。

We just talk about it openly.

我们只是公开谈论它。

We are genuinely fighting against it.

我们正在真诚地与之斗争。

Look, we have sitting in our prison, Ihor Kolomoyskyi, who is the most influential Ukrainian oligarch since independence and no one could do anything about him.

看，我们的监狱里坐着伊霍尔·科洛莫伊斯基（Ihor Kolomoyskyi），他是独立以来最有影响力的乌克兰寡头，没有人能对他做任何事。

The United States of America wanted to have Kolomoyskyi and they went to great lengths because of money laundering, etc. There are criminal cases in the United States, I think in Delaware, something like that.

美利坚合众国想要科洛莫伊斯基，他们因为洗钱等不遗余力。美国有刑事案件，我想特拉华州也有类似的案件。

Neither Europe could do anything about it.

欧洲对此无能为力。

That is, we did a lot with oligarchs.

也就是说，我们对寡头做了很多事情。

Russian oligarchs, sanctions were imposed, they were thrown out.

俄罗斯寡头，受到制裁，他们被赶了出去。

Some of them fled the state, but they are all under sanctions.

其中一些人逃离了该州，但他们都受到制裁。

We exchanged some of them for our soldiers such as Medvedchuk to whose daughter Putin is godfather.

我们用其中一些交换了我们的士兵，例如梅德维丘克，他的女儿普京是他的教父。

2:20:57 That is, we fought against the strongest influential oligarchs, which are, and were in Ukraine and we eliminated a lot of corruption.

也就是说，我们与乌克兰最有影响力的寡头作斗争，我们消除了很多腐败。

Of course corruption exists in everyday life.

当然，腐败存在于日常生活中。

It exists.

它存在。

But institutionally, I am sure that Ukraine will overcome all this.

但从制度上讲，我相信乌克兰将克服这一切。

This takes a little time.

这需要一点时间。

I would say honestly, that listen, what we call corruption and in some state of the world it’s called lobbyism, but this does not mean that there is no corruption there.

老实说，听着，我们所说的腐败，在世界的某些国家，这被称为游说，但这并不意味着那里没有腐败。

2:21:36 Let’s take the aid you mentioned during the war.

让我们接受你提到的战争期间的援助。

First of all, we have no money.

首先，我们没有钱。

We have no money except for the war.

除了战争我们没有钱。

We received weapons from the United States of America, from Europe.

我们从美国和欧洲收到了武器。

If we take for example money from the United States of America during all this time of the war, around 177 billion have been voted for or decided upon, 177 billion.

如果我们以战争期间美利坚合众国的资金为例，大约有 1,770 亿美元已被投票或决定，即 1,770 亿美元。

Let’s be honest, we have not received half of this money.

说实话，这笔钱我们还没有收到一半。

2:22:20 The second point, which is very important, just as an example, is it corruption?

第二点，非常重要，举个例子，是不是腐败？

The first question, whose corruption?

第一个问题，谁腐败？

This is the second.

这是第二个。

Here is just one small example for you.

这只是为您提供的一个小例子。

When the United States began to transfer US weapons, it was American money, but American weapons, money for these weapons.

当美国开始转让美国武器时，是美国的钱，而是美国的武器，是购买这些武器的钱。

As a president, I had cargo jets, not in Ukraine.

作为总统，我拥有货机，但不是在乌克兰。

Because of the war, we moved them very quickly to Europe.

由于战争，我们很快就把他们转移到了欧洲。

We had cargo.

我们有货物。

We have good cargo fleet, very good because of Antonov.

我们拥有优秀的货运车队，这得益于安东诺夫。

So I asked American side to grant me the opportunity because our jets are at another airfield and I asked America to give me the opportunity to use our jets for transfer, not to pay a lot.

所以我请求美方给我这个机会，因为我们的飞机在另一个机场，我请求美方给我一个使用我们的飞机进行转机的机会，而不是支付很多费用。

To whom?

给谁？

To your companies, to American companies.

对于你们的公司，对于美国的公司。

No, I didn’t get this opportunity.

不，我没有得到这个机会。

My jets stayed put and the United States jets, cargo jets moved these weapons.

我的喷气式飞机留在原地，美国喷气式飞机、货机则移动这些武器。

But everywhere you have to spend money so we could get more weapons, but we have to pay for this very expensive fleet.

但到处都必须花钱，这样我们才能获得更多武器，但我们必须为这支非常昂贵的舰队买单。

My question, is this corruption or not?

我的问题是，这算不算腐败？

Or lobbyism?

还是游说？

What is it?

它是什么？

You mean corruption on the part of the US companies?

你是指美国企业的腐败吗？

Yes.

是的。

2:24:08 Making such decisions.

做出这样的决定。

Yes, I got it.

是的，我明白了。

The lobbying for such decisions involves some companies that make these decisions, but I can’t be open about it and I couldn’t speak loudly about it.

此类决定的游说涉及一些做出这些决定的公司，但我不能公开，也不能大声谈论它。

2:24:11 I didn’t want, nor did I intend to cause any scandals to arise because otherwise you can freeze the support and that’s it.

我不想、也不打算引起任何丑闻，因为否则你可以冻结支持，仅此而已。

And that’s why when we talk about corruption, we must ask who is involved?

这就是为什么当我们谈论腐败时，我们必须问谁参与其中？

If we had 177, and if we get the half, where’s the half?

如果我们有 177 个，如果我们得到一半，那一半在哪里？

If you will find the second half, you will find corruption.

如果你找到了下半场，你就会发现腐败。

There is a perception of corruption.

有一种腐败的感觉。

2:24:45 People like Donald Trump and Elon Musk really care about fighting corruption.

像唐纳德·特朗普和埃隆·马斯克这样的人非常关心打击腐败。

What can you say to them to gain their trust that the money is going towards this fight for freedom, towards the war effort?

你能对他们说些什么来赢得他们的信任，让他们相信这些钱将用于这场争取自由的斗争，用于战争的努力？

In most of cases, we did not receive money, we received weapons.

在大多数情况下，我们没有收到钱，而是收到了武器。

2:25:03 And where we saw risks that something could be happening with weapons, we cracked down hard on everyone.

当我们看到武器可能发生问题的风险时，我们就会严厉打击所有人。

And believe me, this is not only about Ukraine.

相信我，这不仅仅与乌克兰有关。

Everywhere along the supply chain, there are some or other people and companies who want to make money, they try to make money on the war.

供应链上到处都有一些人和公司想要赚钱，他们试图通过战争赚钱。

We did not profit from the war.

我们没有从战争中获利。

If we caught someone, believe me, we cracked down hard on them, and we did that, and we will continue to do so because to this day when someone says that, “Ukraine was selling weapons,” and by the way, Russia was the one pushing this narrative, we always responded, “Our soldiers would kill such people with their own hands without any trial.”

如果我们抓住了某人，相信我，我们会严厉打击他们，我们这样做了，我们将继续这样做，因为直到今天，当有人说“乌克兰在出售武器”时，顺便说一句，俄罗斯是推动这一说法的人，我们总是回应说，“我们的士兵会在没有任何审判的情况下亲手杀死这些人。”

2:25:56 Do you honestly think anyone could steal weapons by the truckload when we ourselves don’t have enough on the front lines?

当我们自己在前线没有足够的武器时，你真的认为有人可以偷走一卡车的武器吗？

And yet we have to provide proof to defend ourselves because when there’s an abundance of such misinformation, distrust starts to grow.

然而，我们必须提供证据来为自己辩护，因为当此类错误信息大量存在时，不信任就会开始增长。

And you’re right, people listen to various media outlets, see this and lose faith in you.

你是对的，人们听各种媒体报道，看到这一点并对你失去信心。

In the end, you lose trust and with it you lose support.

最终，你失去了信任，也失去了支持。

Therefore, believe me, we are fighting more against disinformation than against particular cases.

因此，相信我，我们更多地是在打击虚假信息，而不是针对特定案件。

Although I still emphasize once again at the everyday level, such things are still important.

虽然在日常层面我还是再次强调，但是这些事情还是很重要的。

We catch these people and we fight them.

我们抓住这些人并与他们战斗。

I mentioned Elon Musk.

我提到了埃隆·马斯克。

2:26:45 I would be interested to hear what you think of him, why you respect him as a person, as an engineer, as an innovator, as a businessman.

我很想听听您对他的看法，为什么您尊重他作为一个人、一个工程师、一个创新者、一个商人。

I would just like to hear from you, what do you think about Elon Musk?

我只是想听听你的意见，你对埃隆·马斯克有何看法？

First of all, I had a conversation with him at the beginning of the war.

首先，我在战争开始时与他进行了交谈。

2:27:00 I talked with him.

我和他谈过。

I respect him, first and foremost.

我首先尊重他。

I respect the self-made man, right?

我尊重白手起家的人，对吗？

Yes.

是的。

In English, I love such people.

用英语来说，我喜欢这样的人。

2:27:14 No one and nothing fell into their lap.

没有人和任何东西落入他们的怀抱。

But the man did something, did it all himself.

但这个人做了一些事情，而且这一切都是他自己做的。

I worked myself, created a big production company and I know what it means to make money, to select talented people, to impart knowledge to them, to invest money and to create something, something important for certain people.

我自己工作，创建了一家大型制作公司，我知道赚钱、选择人才、向他们传授知识、投资以及创造对某些人来说重要的东西意味着什么。

And I’m not comparing myself to Musk, he just, well, the man is a great leader of innovations in the world.

我并不是将自己与马斯克进行比较，他只是，嗯，这个人是世界创新的伟大领导者。

And I believe that such people move the world forward.

我相信这样的人会推动世界前进。

Therefore, I respect the result of his work.

因此，我尊重他的工作成果。

And we see this result.

我们看到了这个结果。

And for me, it has always been important that your result can be used.

对我来说，你的结果可以被使用一直很重要。

That these are not words but facts.

这些不是言语而是事实。

2:28:16 Let’s take the war.

让我们以战争为例。

We are very grateful for Starlink.

我们非常感谢星链。

It has helped.

它有帮助。

We used it after Russian missile attacks on the energy infrastructure.

我们在俄罗斯导弹袭击能源基础设施后使用了它。

There were problems with the internet, et cetera, with connection.

互联网等连接出现问题。

We used Starlink both at the front and in kindergartens.

我们在前线和幼儿园都使用了星链。

It was used in schools, it helped children.

它在学校中使用，它帮助了孩子们。

We used it in various infrastructure and it helped us very much.

我们在各种基础设施中使用了它，它对我们帮助很大。

And I would very much like Elon to be on our side as much as possible to support us.

我非常希望埃隆能够尽可能地站在我们这一边来支持我们。

And yes, I’m grateful to him for Starlink.

是的，我很感谢他的星链。

Truly, I am.

确实，我是。

First of all, so that our guys have a connection, and children too.

首先，让我们的人和孩子们建立联系。

And I am really grateful to him for that.

我真的很感谢他。

I think I would like him to come to Ukraine, to talk to people here and to look around and so on.

我想我希望他来乌克兰，与这里的人们交谈并环顾四周等等。

Has Elon visited Kyiv or Ukraine yet?

埃隆访问过基辅或乌克兰吗？

No.

不。

I hope the Kyiv airport will open soon, then it will be easier to fly in.

我希望基辅机场尽快开放，这样乘飞机会更方便。

Yes, I am looking forward to it.

是的，我很期待。

2:29:30 Maybe we will open it, but only, and you must understand if the war is over, there must be sustainable peace and air defense systems to be honest.

也许我们会开放它，但只是，你必须明白，如果战争结束，说实话，必须有可持续的和平和防空系统。

And we must ensure that they are long-lasting and effective.

我们必须确保它们持久有效。

Let’s take the airport for example, and let’s focus on the airport in Dresden, which very well as it is handling important cargo for Ukraine in Poland.

我们以机场为例，我们重点关注德累斯顿机场，该机场在波兰处理着乌克兰的重要货物。

And there are patriot systems there because everyone understands what the risk is.

那里有爱国者系统，因为每个人都知道风险是什么。

Well, Russia is a risk and therefore we need air defense systems.

嗯，俄罗斯是一个风险，因此我们需要防空系统。

And today, today, take for example, the air defense system of one city or another that is being shelled and move it, move it to the airport.

今天，今天，举个例子，一个城市或另一个城市的防空系统正在被炮击，然后把它转移到机场。

Well, that would be dishonest.

嗯，那是不诚实的。

People are more important than planes.

人比飞机更重要。

But there will be a moment, and Trump, by the way, I think that the war will end and President Trump may be the first leader to travel here by airplane.

但会有那么一个时刻，顺便说一句，特朗普，我认为战争将会结束，特朗普总统可能是第一个乘飞机来到这里的领导人。

I think it would be symbolic by airplane.

我认为飞机是具有象征意义的。

Again, January 25th around that date.

同样是 1 月 25 日左右的那个日期。

2:30:36 Right?

正确的？

Flying in, meeting the Air Force One.

飞来，与空军一号会面。

That would be cool.

那会很酷。

Elon Musk.

埃隆·马斯克。

2:30:42 I will meet you there for the second time too on the plane.

我也会在飞机上第二次见到你。

With pleasure.

荣幸。

And you, by the way, before I forget, let me ask, are you coming on January 20th for President Trump’s inauguration?

顺便问一下，在我忘记之前，让我问一下，1 月 20 日你会来参加特朗普总统的就职典礼吗？

I would like to, of course.

我当然愿意。

2:30:58 I will be considering what is happening then in the war because there are moments of difficulties, escalation, many missiles, etc. But honestly, well, I can’t.

我会考虑战争中正在发生的事情，因为有困难、升级、许多导弹等时刻。但说实话，我不能。

I can’t come especially during the war, unless President Trump invites me personally.

特别是在战争期间我不能来，除非特朗普总统亲自邀请我。

I’m not sure it’s proper to come because I know that in general, leaders are for some reason not usually invited to the inauguration of presidents of the United States of America.

我不确定来参加是否合适，因为我知道一般来说，由于某种原因，领导人通常不会被邀请参加美利坚合众国总统的就职典礼。

Well, and I know that there are leaders who can simply come, want to come and will come.

嗯，我知道有些领导人可以来、想来并且将会来。

Yeah, I know.

是的，我知道。

And I know the temperament of some of these people.

我了解其中一些人的性格。

They can come at their discretion.

他们可以自行决定是否前来。

This is very, very difficult for me.

这对我来说非常非常困难。

I am the kind of person that cannot come without an invitation.

我是那种没有邀请就不能来的人。

This is Putin.

这是普京。

We did not invite him.

我们没有邀请他。

He came to us, so to say.

可以这么说，他来找我们了。

And me, I can’t do that.

而我，我做不到。

No, but he publicly say that it would be great if you came to the inauguration or you mean did he invite it officially?

没有，但他公开表示，如果你能来参加就职典礼那就太好了，或者你的意思是他正式邀请了？

No, wait.

不，等等。

2:32:15 Look, look, look.

看，看，看。

Listen, I am against any bureaucracy.

听着，我反对任何官僚主义。

I get rid of it as much as I can.

我尽可能地摆脱它。

But well, there are some complexities involving security.

但是，安全方面存在一些复杂性。

I decide and I fly, and the United States of America officially provides security.

我决定，我飞，美利坚合众国正式提供安全保障。

Not that I need this, mind you.

请注意，我并不需要这个。

I do not ask for helicopters to fly around and protect me, but they will simply do it themselves.

我不要求直升机飞来飞去保护我，但他们会自己做。

The security service itself.

安全服务本身。

They had to do it.

他们必须这样做。

I don’t want it, and sometimes I don’t need it.

我不想要它，有时我也不需要它。

And I’m asking them.

我在问他们。

2:32:51 It was for example, before the war, I think, yes, it was before the war, I had a meeting, yes, with President Trump.

例如，在战前，我想，是的，在战前，我与特朗普总统进行了会面。

It was in 2019.

那是在2019年。

I just wanted to go for a run early in the morning because I really wanted to exercise.

我只是想一大早去跑步，因为我真的很想锻炼身体。

And they, those tall bodyguards, a lot of them, they decided to join me, but I couldn’t really do it because they were in suits and I was in sportswear.

他们，那些高大的保镖，很多人，他们决定加入我，但我不能真正做到，因为他们穿着西装，而我穿着运动服。

I said, no, I can’t.

我说，不，我不能。

It’s always funny.

这总是很有趣。

I don’t want to disturb anybody and cause anyone problems with me.

我不想打扰任何人，也不想给任何人带来麻烦。

And that’s why if he will invite me, I will come.

这就是为什么如果他邀请我，我就会来。

I thought he invited you.

我以为他邀请你了

Yeah?

是的？

Yeah.

是的。

2:33:37 I thought he publicly invited you.

我以为他公开邀请你了

But okay, I hope to see you there.

但好吧，我希望在那里见到你。

I think they had to to do some of their steps.

我认为他们必须采取一些措施。

2:33:40 I don’t know, but…

我不知道，但是……

Step, yeah.

步骤，是的。

2:33:46 The stamp was missing.

邮票不见了。

But with pleasure with my wife of course.

当然，我和我的妻子很高兴。

2:33:49 And I think it’s important.

我认为这很重要。

It’s important.

这很重要。

All right, let’s get back to a serious question.

好吧，让我们回到一个严肃的问题。

2:33:55 Sometimes they say it in America, this question of who is really in power?

在美国有时他们会说，谁才是真正掌权的问题？

So let me ask, is someone controlling you?

那我想问一下，有人控制你吗？

For example, oligarchs, American politicians, Yermak?

比如寡头、美国政客、叶尔马克？

I wanted to bring this up because I have been here in Ukraine twice since the invasion of 2022.

我想提出这个问题是因为自 2022 年入侵以来我已经来过乌克兰两次。

And one of the things I’ve learned well is that actually nobody controls you.

我学到的一件事是，实际上没有人可以控制你。

And this is one of your strengths as a president, as a person that oligarchs and other rich and powerful people like that cannot control you.

这是你作为总统的优势之一，作为一个寡头和其他有钱有势的人无法控制你的人。

Can you explain why that is?

你能解释一下这是为什么吗？

How you see it?

你怎么看？

I think, and it is indeed true that I’m generally difficult to deal with.

我想，确实，我确实很难相处。

2:34:44 I am an ambitious person.

我是一个有野心的人。

I can’t submit to anyone.

我无法屈服于任何人。

I can live by rules, by laws.

我可以按照规则、法律生活。

I believe that this is the only thing that can control any person today.

我相信这是当今唯一可以控制任何人的东西。

These are the rules and laws of the society or state where you live.

这些是您所居住的社会或国家的规则和法律。

And I believe that this is the most important thing.

我相信这是最重要的。

There’s no person who could control me as I once told President Trump when we had a meeting.

正如我曾经在我们开会时告诉特朗普总统的那样，没有人可以控制我。

By the way, journalists asked if Trump influenced me during the phone call.

顺便说一句，记者问特朗普在电话中是否影响了我。

I told the journalist the truth then, who can influence me?

我当时就跟记者说了实话，谁能影响我呢？

Only my boy, my son.

只有我的孩子，我的儿子。

This is a fact.

这是事实。

When he calls asking for something, well, then I lift up my arms, yes, and I cannot do anything about it because children are children.

当他打电话询问某事时，好吧，然后我举起双臂，是的，但我对此无能为力，因为孩子就是孩子。

I have so little time with them.

我和他们在一起的时间太少了。

And therefore when there are these moments, they are precious and important to me.

因此，当这些时刻对我来说是珍贵而重要的。

I am ready to do anything.

我已经准备好做任何事了。

2:35:58 Also, probably my parents, they are an authority for me.

另外，可能是我的父母，他们对我来说是权威。

Beyond that, I view it more as a system.

除此之外，我更多地将其视为一个系统。

No one can control the president.

没有人可以控制总统。

Therefore, we have oligarchs who either fled or are in prison because oligarchs usually control cash flows and people and influence politics.

因此，寡头要么逃跑，要么入狱，因为寡头通常控制现金流和人员并影响政治。

And we have concrete examples with sentences.

我们有带有句子的具体例子。

They are not just under house arrest.

他们不仅仅是被软禁。

Not just that there are some judgments under which their assets were frozen or sanctions were imposed.

不仅有一些判决冻结了他们的资产或实施了制裁。

There are specific people who are behind bars.

有一些特定的人被关在监狱里。

I think this is the answer regarding the influence.

我想这就是影响力的答案。

Would they like to influence me in the same way as any president of Ukraine because finance and cash flows always influence politics?

他们会像任何乌克兰总统一样影响我，因为金融和现金流总是影响政治吗？

Well, at least they want to do this.

好吧，至少他们想这样做。

This is regarding the influence and other people on the vertical, they perform tasks as my managers.

这是关于垂直方向上的影响力和其他人，他们作为我的经理执行任务。

Andrii, you mentioned is one of those managers.

你提到的安德里就是其中一位经理。

Well, I am glad that I have such people.

嗯，我很高兴我有这样的人。

Well, probably there is nothing else to add here.

好吧，这里可能没有什么可补充的了。

I will just say that your team that I spoke with is an excellent team.

我只想说，与我交谈过的你们的团队是一支优秀的团队。

2:37:19 Excellent people.

优秀的人。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Okay, one last question.

好的，最后一个问题。

2:37:26 The future of Ukraine.

乌克兰的未来。

If you look 5, 10, 20 years into the future, what can help Ukraine flourish economically, culturally, politically in the future?

如果展望未来5年、10年、20年，什么可以帮助乌克兰未来在经济、文化和政治上繁荣发展？

Digital, it’s very important.

数字化，非常重要。

2:37:37 Digitalization of all the process.

全流程数字化。

We began this work.

我们开始了这项工作。

We have special ministry of digital transformation.

我们有专门的数字化转型部。

Yeah?

是的？

Yeah.

是的。

2:37:47 So this is very good.

所以这非常好。

And we also have our Diia.

我们还有我们的 Diia。

This is the name for all of these services.

这是所有这些服务的名称。

So I think that is the most important.

所以我认为这是最重要的。

This is, again, this is not only convenient, that will cancel any possibilities for future corruption because you don’t have any personal connections with people in the government or elsewhere.

再说一次，这不仅方便，而且会消除未来腐败的任何可能性，因为你与政府或其他地方的人没有任何个人联系。

So you are just on your phone or any other device.

所以您只需使用手机或任何其他设备即可。

That’s it.

就是这样。

And I think we are doing very well.

我认为我们做得很好。

We are the best in Europe.

我们是欧洲最好的。

All of Europe recognizes it.

全欧洲都承认这一点。

Some countries of the African Union asked us to provide this, the same service and we will do it after the war immediately.

非洲联盟的一些国家要求我们提供同样的服务，我们将在战后立即提供。

And I think that we can bring money to Ukraine from this.

我认为我们可以由此为乌克兰带来资金。

And I think what we also need, we need a tax reform.

我认为我们还需要的是税收改革。

I think it will be very important for the businesses to return.

我认为企业的回归非常重要。

2:38:43 A lot of support will come, I think from USA business investment, not as direct aid to us, just to the private sector and resources.

我认为美国商业投资将会提供大量支持，而不是对我们的直接援助，而只是对私营部门和资源的援助。

And I mentioned this to President Trump and to some European leaders who are our key strategic partners that will be happy, especially with the Americans, will be happy to sign these contracts and engage in joint investments in many areas.

我向特朗普总统和一些欧洲领导人提到了这一点，他们是我们的重要战略合作伙伴，他们会很高兴，特别是与美国人，将很高兴签署这些合同并在许多领域进行联合投资。

And I think we can develop oil, gas, green energy, including solar power.

我认为我们可以开发石油、天然气、绿色能源，包括太阳能。

And we already have the resources.

我们已经拥有资源。

We can invest money into this.

我们可以为此投入资金。

We have oil reserves in the Black Sea that we can exploit and we need your expertise and the investment of your companies.

我们在黑海拥有可供开采的石油储量，我们需要您的专业知识和您公司的投资。

We have gold and uranium reserves, the largest in Europe by the way, which is also very important.

我们拥有欧洲最大的黄金和铀储备，这也非常重要。

For example, Russia has pushed France out of Africa.

例如，俄罗斯将法国赶出了非洲。

They urgently need uranium, which we have.

他们迫切需要铀，而我们有。

So we are ready to open up for investments and this will give us of course, opportunities, jobs for people, revenue.

因此，我们准备开放投资，这当然会给我们带来机会、就业机会和收入。

I don’t want cheap labor, honestly.

老实说，我不想要廉价劳动力。

What I truly want, especially after the war, to open up for those people…

我真正想要的是，特别是在战后，向那些人开放……

2:40:00 I truly want, especially after the war, to open up for those people who can really contribute and earn.

我真的很想，特别是在战后，向那些真正能够做出贡献和赚钱的人开放。

Yes, and give a reason to the eight million people to come back.

是的，并给八百万人一个回来的理由。

Yes, it’s so important.

是的，这非常重要。

2:40:11 And they will come and we will recover and rebuild Ukraine.

他们会来，我们将恢复和重建乌克兰。

We will be very open to companies, and of course we will welcome our people back.

我们将对公司非常开放，当然我们也会欢迎我们的员工回来。

It’s so important culturally.

这在文化上非常重要。

2:40:28 I think the most important thing is to remain open and not change our direction because culturally aligning with Russia, it’s one idea, while aligning with Europe is another.

我认为最重要的是保持开放，不要改变我们的方向，因为在文化上与俄罗斯保持一致是一个想法，而与欧洲保持一致是另一个想法。

Our people have chosen Europe.

我们的人民选择了欧洲。

It’s their choice, it’s our choice, the choice of our nation, and I think it’s very important.

这是他们的选择，这是我们的选择，我们国家的选择，我认为这非常重要。

But first, you have to end the war.

但首先，你必须结束战争。

Yes, you’re right.

是的，你说得对。

2:40:47 And we will.

我们会的。

We want peace.

我们想要和平。

Just to make it clear, we want peace.

澄清一下，我们想要和平。

Just what I always say, you have to come to Ukraine and see for yourself.

正如我常说的，你必须来乌克兰亲自看看。

And people will tell you, “No, we can’t forgive those murderers who took our lives, but we still want to make peace.”

人们会告诉你，“不，我们不能原谅那些夺走我们生命的凶手，但我们仍然想实现和平。”

2:41:12 And honestly, I think that the highest approval rating of the president of the United States, of Trump now is in Ukraine.

老实说，我认为美国总统特朗普现在支持率最高的是乌克兰。

People really believe that he can truly help bring peace.

人们真的相信他能够真正帮助带来和平。

Now they have faith, faith that he can make it happen, that he can support Ukraine and he can stop Putin and that he will make sure Putin doesn’t get everything he wants.

现在他们有信心，相信他能够实现这一目标，相信他能够支持乌克兰，他能够阻止普京，并且他将确保普京不会得到他想要的一切。

This is very important, and it’s why we believe that we must not lose this opportunity.

这非常重要，这就是为什么我们相信我们不能失去这个机会。

I hope you find the path to peace.

我希望你能找到通往和平的道路。

2:41:54 Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you so much.

太感谢了。

Thank you for talking today.

谢谢你今天的发言。

Thank you for coming.

谢谢您的光临。

[foreign language 02:42:01].

[外语02:42:01]。

[foreign language 02:42:02] Yeah.

[外语02:42:02] 是的。

2:42:02 You started.

你开始了。

Thank you very much.

非常感谢。

Thank you for listening to this conversation with the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

感谢您收听与乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基的对话。

2:42:09 And now let me answer some questions and try to reflect on and articulate some things I’ve been thinking about.

现在让我回答一些问题，并尝试反思和阐明我一直在思考的一些事情。

If you would like to submit questions, including in audio and video form, go to lexfridman.com/ama.

如果您想提交问题（包括音频和视频形式），请访问 lexfridman.com/ama。

Or to contact me for whatever other reason, go to lexfridman.com/contact.

或者出于任何其他原因联系我，请访问 lexfridman.com/contact。

2:42:36 First, I got a bunch of questions about this, so let me chat about the topic of language and let’s say the mechanics of multilingual conversation.

首先，我有很多关于这个问题的问题，所以让我谈谈语言这个话题，让我们谈谈多语言对话的机制。

Perhaps the details are interesting to some people.

也许有些人对细节感兴趣。

It also allows me to reflect back on the puzzle of it in this episode and what I can do better next time.

这也让我反思了这一集的困惑以及下次我可以做得更好。

I already explained in the intro the symbolic, historic, and geopolitical complexity of the choice of language in the conversation with President Zelenskyy.

我已经在引言中解释了与泽伦斯基总统对话中语言选择的象征性、历史性和地缘政治复杂性。

As I said, the Russian language is one that the president speaks fluently and was his primary language for most of his life.

正如我所说，俄语是总统能说流利的语言，也是他一生中大部分时间的主要语言。

I speak Russian fluently as well.

我俄语也说得很流利。

It’s the only common language we are both fluent in, so any other combination of languages required an interpreter, including when I spoke English.

这是我们都能流利的唯一共同语言，因此任何其他语言组合都需要口译员，包括我说英语时。

He did need an interpreter when I spoke English, and just like I was, was visibly encumbered and annoyed by the process of interpretation.

当我说英语时，他确实需要一名翻译，就像我一样，他显然对翻译过程感到困扰和烦恼。

This is why I tried to speak in Russian to the president instead of English, so that he can directly understand me without an interpreter.

这就是为什么我尝试用俄语而不是英语与总统交谈，这样他就可以在没有翻译的情况下直接理解我的意思。

2:43:47 I’m willing to take the hit for that, as I am for everything else.

我愿意为此承受打击，就像我愿意承受其他一切一样。

I’m not trying to protect myself, I’m trying to do whatever is best for the conversation for understanding, though it has been getting harder and harder to stay open, vulnerable and raw in public while the swarms of chanting internet mobs stop by with their torches and their color-coded hats, flags, frogs, pronouns, and hashtags.

我并不是想保护自己，我只是想尽一切努力促进对话的理解，尽管在公共场合保持开放、脆弱和原始变得越来越困难，而一大群高呼口号的网络暴徒拿着火把和颜色编码的帽子、旗帜、青蛙、代词和主题标签路过。

2:44:17 Anyway, there is a lot of nuanced aspects of the conversational language that I would like to explain here.

不管怎样，我想在这里解释一下会话语言的很多微妙的方面。

I’ll try to be brief.

我会尽量简短。

I can recommend a lot of books on this topic of language and communication that reveal just how amazing this technology of language is.

我可以推荐很多关于语言和交流主题的书籍，这些书籍揭示了这种语言技术有多么神奇。

For example, for a good overview, I recommend John McWhorter’s books and especially his lecture series for the Great Courses on language.

例如，为了更好地概述，我推荐约翰·麦克沃特（John McWhorter）的书籍，尤其是他的语言伟大课程系列讲座。

There are several.

有好几个。

In the Story of Human Language series, he gives a great discussion on spoken language versus written language, and that spoken language often relaxes the rules of communication.

在《人类语言的故事》系列中，他对口语与书面语言进行了精彩的讨论，口语常常放松了交流的规则。

It uses shorter packets of words, loads in a bunch of subtle cues and meanings, all of which, like I’m trying to describe, are lost when there’s an interpreter in the loop.

它使用较短的单词包，加载一堆微妙的提示和含义，就像我试图描述的那样，当循环中存在解释器时，所有这些都会丢失。

2:45:09 Let me also describe some relevant characteristics of my peculiar language “abilities” in quotes.

我还用引号描述了我独特的语言“能力”的一些相关特征。

I was never good at speaking.

我一向不擅长说话。

I listen to think and understand better than I speak.

我听、思考、理解比我说的更好。

For me, this is true for both English and Russian, but it is especially true for Russian.

对我来说，英语和俄语都是如此，但俄语尤其如此。

The Russian language allows for much more room for wit, nonstandard terms of phrase, metaphors, humor, rhyme, musicality, and let’s say deforming of words that create a lot of room for creativity and how meaning and emotion are conveyed.

俄语为智慧、非标准短语术语、隐喻、幽默、韵律、音乐性以及词语变形提供了更多的空间，为创造力以及意义和情感的传达方式创造了很大的空间。

You could do the same in English, but it’s harder.

你可以用英语做同样的事情，但更难。

I actually find that Brits are sometimes very good at this.

事实上，我发现英国人有时非常擅长这一点。

One of my favorite humans to talk to is Douglas Murray.

我最喜欢交谈的人之一是道格拉斯·默里。

Setting the content of the conversation aside, the sheer linguistic brilliance and wit of dialogue with Douglas is a journey in itself.

抛开对话内容不谈，与道格拉斯对话的纯粹语言才华和智慧本身就是一次旅程。

I think Christopher Hitchens had the same, and many others, like I said, especially Brits.

我认为克里斯托弗·希钦斯（Christopher Hitchens）也有同样的情况，还有很多其他人，就像我说的那样，尤其是英国人。

Anyway, I’m able to detect and understand a lot of dynamism and humor in the Russian language, but I’m slow to generate it in part because I just don’t practice.

不管怎样，我能够发现并理解俄语中的很多活力和幽默，但我生成它的速度很慢，部分原因是我不练习。

I have very few Russian-speaking friends.

我很少有说俄语的朋友。

Funny enough, most of them are Ukrainian, but they speak with me and each other in Russian.

有趣的是，他们大多数是乌克兰人，但他们用俄语与我和彼此交谈。

But of course, as I mentioned, this is slowly changing due to the war.

但当然，正如我提到的，由于战争，这种情况正在慢慢改变。

But I tried to speak to the president in Russian so he would avoid needing an interpreter as much as possible.

但我尝试用俄语与总统交谈，这样他就可以尽可能避免需要翻译。

2:46:47 One of the things I want to improve for next time is to make sure I get very good equipment for interpretation and arrange for an interpreter I trust to be exceptionally good for the dynamism and the endurance of a three-hour conversation in the style that I tried to do.

下次我想要改进的事情之一是确保我获得非常好的口译设备，并安排一名我相信能够以我尝试做的方式进行三小时对话的活力和耐力的口译员。

Just to give you some behind-the-scenes details of the experience, equipment-wise, funny enough, it’s not actually so trivial to set up wireless connections from us, the two people talking, to the interpreter, and then back to us in a way that’s super robust and has clean audio.

只是为了向您提供一些体验的幕后细节，从设备角度来看，足够有趣的是，从我们、两个人交谈到口译员，然后以一种超级强大且具有干净音频的方式建立无线连接，实际上并不是那么简单。

The audio I had in my ear from the interpreter had a loud background noise, so the whole time I’m hearing a shh sound with the voice of the interpreter coming in very quietly.

我耳边听到的译员声音背景噪音很大，所以整个过程中我听到的是嘘声，译员的声音非常安静。

What a wonderful experience this whole life is, frankly.

坦白说，这一生是多么美妙的经历啊。

Plus, his translation was often incomplete, at least for me, so I had to put together those puzzle pieces continuously.

另外，他的翻译常常不完整，至少对我来说是这样，所以我不得不不断地将这些拼图拼凑起来。

But again, it worked out.

但再次，它成功了。

And hopefully our constant switching of languages and having a meta-discussion about language provided good insights as to the complexity of this fight for a nation’s identity and sovereignty that Ukraine has gone through.

希望我们不断的语言转换和关于语言的元讨论能够为我们了解乌克兰所经历的这场争取国家身份和主权的斗争的复杂性提供良好的见解。

2:48:07 Behind the scenes, off-mic on a personal level, President Zelenskyy was funny, thoughtful, and just a kind-hearted person.

在幕后，就个人而言，泽伦斯基总统很有趣、体贴、而且是一个心地善良的人。

And really, the whole team were just great people.

确实，整个团队都是很棒的人。

It was an experience I’ll never forget.

这是一次我永远不会忘记的经历。

2:48:24 After the conversation was recorded, the next challenge was to translate all of this and overdub it and do it super quickly.

录制对话后，下一个挑战是翻译所有这些内容并进行配音，并且速度非常快。

These words I’m speaking now have to be translated and dubbed into Ukrainian and Russian.

我现在所说的这些话必须被翻译并配音成乌克兰语和俄语。

ElevenLabs were really helpful here, especially in bringing the president’s voice to life in different languages.

ElevenLabs 在这里确实很有帮助，特别是在用不同语言生动地表达总统的声音方面。

But even more than that, they’re just an amazing team who inspired me and everyone involved.

但更重要的是，他们是一支出色的团队，激励了我和所有参与者。

Please go support ElevenLabs.

请去支持ElevenLabs。

They are a great company and great people.

他们是一家伟大的公司和伟大的人民。

The translation is separate from the text to speech and was done in part by AI and a lot by human.

翻译与文本到语音的翻译是分开的，部分由人工智能完成，大部分由人类完成。

This is where the fact that we had constant switching between three languages was a real challenge.

这就是我们在三种语言之间不断切换的事实是一个真正的挑战。

There are six transition mappings that have to be done: English to Ukrainian and Russian, Ukrainian to English and Russian, and then Russian to English and Ukrainian continuously, sentence by sentence, sometimes word by word.

必须完成六种转换映射：英语到乌克兰语和俄语，乌克兰语到英语和俄语，然后俄语到英语和乌克兰语，连续地逐句、有时逐字地进行。

And each combination of language to language translation is best done by a person who specializes in that kind of mapping.

每种语言到语言翻译的组合最好由专门从事这种映射的人员来完成。

It was all a beautiful mess, all of it.

这一切都是一团美丽的混乱。

2:49:41 And on top of all that, great translation is super hard.

最重要的是，出色的翻译非常困难。

For example, I’ve read and listened to a lot of Dostoevsky both English and Russian and studied the process of how these books are translated by various translators.

例如，我读过、听过很多陀思妥耶夫斯基的英文和俄文著作，研究过不同译者翻译这些书的过程。

You can spend a week discussing how to translate a single important sentence well.

你可以花一周的时间讨论如何翻译好一个重要的句子。

Obviously, in this situation, we don’t have weeks, we have hours for the whole thing.

显然，在这种情况下，我们没有几周的时间，而是有几个小时来完成整个事情。

2:50:06 One of the things I regret is not putting enough time into the hiring and selecting great translators, from Russian and Ukrainian to English especially.

我遗憾的一件事是没有投入足够的时间来雇用和选择优秀的翻译人员，尤其是从俄语和乌克兰语到英语的翻译。

I think translation is an art, so getting a good translator that works well with us is a process that needs more time and effort.

我认为翻译是一门艺术，因此找到一位与我们合作良好的优秀翻译人员是一个需要更多时间和精力的过程。

I’ll be doing that more this month.

这个月我会做更多的事情。

2:50:27 By the way, we have a small but amazing team.

顺便说一句，我们有一个小而出色的团队。

If you want to join us, go to lexfridman.com/hiring.

如果您想加入我们，请访问 lexfridman.com/hiring。

If you’re passionate, work hard, and everyone on the team loves working with you, then we’ll do some epic stuff together.

如果你充满热情、努力工作，并且团队中的每个人都喜欢与你一起工作，那么我们将一起做一些史诗般的事情。

Would love to work with you.

很乐意与您合作。

Like I said about ElevenLabs.

就像我关于 ElevenLabs 所说的那样。

There are a few things is awesome in life as being able to work hard with an amazing team towards a mission all of us are passionate about.

生活中有一些事情是很棒的，比如能够与一支出色的团队一起努力实现我们所有人都热衷的使命。

2:50:54 Anyway, I’ll probably be doing a few more interviews in the Russian language.

无论如何，我可能会用俄语进行更多采访。

I do have a lingering goal of interviewing the Mathematician Grigori Perelman, but there’s also others.

我确实有一个挥之不去的目标，那就是采访数学家格里戈里·佩雷尔曼，但还有其他目标。

I will also work on improving my whole pipeline both equipment-wise and interpreter-wise in doing these conversations in other languages because there are many that I would like to do in languages I don’t speak at all like Chinese, Mandarin or Spanish, Arabic, Hindi, Portuguese, French, German.

我还将努力改进我的整个流程，无论是在设备方面还是在翻译方面，以其他语言进行这些对话，因为我想用我根本不会说的语言做很多事情，比如中文、普通话或西班牙语、阿拉伯语、印地语、葡萄牙语、法语、德语。

I see language as both a barrier for communication and a portal into understanding the spirit of a people connected by that language.

我认为语言既是沟通的障碍，也是理解通过该语言相连的民族精神的门户。

It’s all a weird and beautiful puzzle, and I’m just excited to get the chance to explore it.

这都是一个奇怪而美丽的谜题，我很高兴有机会探索它。

2:51:39 All right, I got a question on how I prepare for podcasts.

好吧，我有一个关于如何准备播客的问题。

This has evolved and expanded more and more over time.

随着时间的推移，这种情况已经越来越演变和扩展。

There are some podcasts that I prepare hundreds of hours for.

有些播客我准备了数百个小时。

In AI terms, let’s say, first, I’m training a solid background model by consuming as much variety on the topic as possible.

就人工智能而言，首先，我正在通过尽可能多地使用该主题的多样性来训练一个可靠的背景模型。

A lot of this comes down to picking high-signal sources, whether it’s blogs, books, podcasts, YouTube videos, X accounts, and so on.

这很大程度上取决于选择高信号来源，无论是博客、书籍、播客、YouTube 视频、X 帐户等等。

2:52:09 For this conversation with President Zelenskyy, for example, since February 2022 I’ve spoken with hundreds of people on the ground, I’ve read Kindle or audiobook, about 10 books fully, and then I skimmed about 20 more.

例如，对于与泽连斯基总统的这次对话，自 2022 年 2 月以来，我已经与当地数百人进行了交谈，我读过 Kindle 或有声读物，总共大约 10 本书，然后又浏览了大约 20 本书。

And I don’t mean books about Zelenskyy, although he does appear in some of them, I mean books where this conversation was fully in the back of my mind as I’m reading the book.

我指的不是关于泽连斯基的书，尽管他确实出现在其中一些书中，我指的是当我读这本书时，这段对话完全在我脑海中的书。

For example, I read Red Famine by Anne Applebaum.

例如，我读了安妮·阿普尔鲍姆的《红色饥荒》。

It’s about Holodomor.

这是关于大饥荒的。

Does it directly relate to Zelenskyy?

它与泽连斯基有直接关系吗？

Not on the surface, no.

表面上看不出来，不是。

But it continues to weave the fabric of my understanding of a people, of a history of the region.

但它继续编织着我对一个民族和该地区历史的理解。

2:52:56 But it’s really important for me to read books from various perspectives.

但从不同角度阅读书籍对我来说非常重要。

And I’m always trying to calculate the bias under which the author operates and adjusting for that in my brain as I integrate the information.

我总是试图计算作者操作时的偏见，并在整合信息时在我的大脑中进行调整。

For example, Anne Applebaum’s book, Gulag, is very different from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s Gulag Archipelago.

例如，安妮·阿普尔鲍姆的书《古拉格》与亚历山大·索尔仁尼琴的《古拉格群岛》有很大不同。

The former is a rigorous, comprehensive, historical account, the latter is a literary, psychological, and personal portrait of Soviet society.

前者是严谨、全面的历史叙述，后者是苏联社会的文学、心理和个人肖像。

Both I think are extremely valuable.

我认为两者都非常有价值。

On the bias front, for example, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer is a good example.

例如，在偏见方面，威廉·夏勒（William Shirer）的《第三帝国的兴衰》就是一个很好的例子。

It is full of bias, but he was there, and to me, he has written probably one of the greatest if not the greatest book on the Third Reich ever.

它充满了偏见，但他就在那里，对我来说，他写的可能是关于第三帝国有史以来最伟大的书之一，即使不是最伟大的书。

But like I said, it has a lot of inaccuracies and biases.

但就像我说的，它有很多不准确和偏见。

You can read about them online if you like.

如果您愿意，您可以在线阅读有关它们的信息。

But my job in this case and in all cases is to adjust based on my understanding of the authors’ biases and take the wisdom from the text where it could be found and putting the inaccuracies aside into the proverbial dustbins of history.

但在这种情况下以及在所有情况下，我的工作是根据我对作者偏见的理解进行调整，并从可以找到的文本中汲取智慧，并将不准确的内容扔进众所周知的历史垃圾箱。

2:54:12 As I’m reading, I’m writing down my thoughts as they come up, always digging for some deeper insight about human nature.

当我阅读时，我会写下我的想法，总是挖掘对人性的更深入的洞察。