维韦克·拉马斯瓦米：特朗普、保守主义、民族主义、移民与战争

The way I would do it, 75% headcount reduction across the board in the federal bureaucracy, send them home packing, shut down agencies that shouldn’t exist, rescind every unconstitutional regulation that Congress never passed.

我的做法是，全面削减联邦官僚机构 75% 的员工人数，让他们打包回家，关闭不应该存在的机构，废除国会从未通过的每一项违宪法规。

00:00 In a true self-governing democracy, it should be our elected representatives that make the laws and the rules, not unelected bureaucrats.

在真正的自治民主国家中，制定法律和规则的应该是我们选出的代表，而不是未经选举产生的官僚。

Merit and equity are actually incompatible.

功绩和公平实际上是不相容的。

Merit and group quotas are incompatible.

功绩和团体配额不兼容。

You can have one or the other, you can’t have both.

你可以选择其中之一，但不能两者兼得。

00:29 It’s an assault and a crusade on the nanny state itself.

这是对保姆国家本身的攻击和十字军东征。

And that nanny state presents itself in several forms.

这种保姆状态有多种表现形式。

There’s the entitlement state, it’s the welfare state, presents itself in the form of the regulatory state.

有权利国家，即福利国家，以监管国家的形式出现。

That’s what we’re talking about.

这就是我们正在谈论的。

And then there’s the foreign nanny state where effectively we are subsidizing other countries that aren’t paying their fair share of protection or other resources we provide them.

然后是外国保姆国家，我们实际上正在补贴其他没有支付我们提供的公平份额的保护或其他资源的国家。

If I was to summarize my ideology, in a nutshell, it is to terminate the nanny state in the United States of America in all of its forms, the entitlement state, the regulatory state and the foreign policy nanny state.

如果我要总结我的意识形态，简而言之，就是终止美利坚合众国所有形式的保姆国家，即权利国家、监管​​国家和外交政策保姆国家。

Once we’ve done that, we’ve revived the republic that I think would make George Washington proud.

一旦我们做到了这一点，我们就复兴了共和国，我认为这会让乔治·华盛顿感到自豪。

The following is a conversation with Vivek Ramaswamy about the future of conservatism in America.

以下是与维韦克·拉马斯瓦米关于美国保守主义未来的对话。

01:11 He has written many books on this topic, including his latest called Truths: The Future of America First.

他写了很多关于这个主题的书，包括他的最新著作《真理：美国优先的未来》。

He ran for president this year in the Republican primary and is considered by many to represent the future of the Republican Party.

他今年在共和党初选中竞选总统，被许多人认为代表了共和党的未来。

Before all that, he was a successful biotech entrepreneur and investor with a degree in biology from Harvard and a law degree from Yale.

在此之前，他是一位成功的生物技术企业家和投资者，拥有哈佛大学生物学学位和耶鲁大学法学学位。

As always, when the topic is politics, I will continue talking to people on both the left and the right with empathy, curiosity and backbone.

一如既往，当话题是政治时，我将继续以同理心、好奇心和勇气与左派和右派人士交谈。

This is a Lex Fridman podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客。

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

为了支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

And now, dear friends, here’s Vivek Ramaswamy.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是维韦克·拉马斯瓦米。

02:02 You are one of the great elucidators of conservative ideas, so you’re the perfect person to ask.

您是保守派思想的伟大阐释者之一，因此您是最合适的人选。

What is conservatism?

什么是保守主义？

What’s your, let’s say, conservative vision for America?

比方说，你对美国的保守派愿景是什么？

Well, actually this is one of my criticisms of the modern Republican Party and direction of the conservative movement is that we’ve gotten so good at describing what we’re against.

好吧，实际上这是我对现代共和党的批评之一，保守派运动的方向是我们非常擅长描述我们所反对的事情。

02:14 There’s a list of things that we could rail against, wokeism, transgender ideology, climate ideology, COVIDism, COVID policies, the radical Biden agenda, the radical Harris agenda, the list goes on.

我们可以反对的事情有很多，唤醒主义、跨性别意识形态、气候意识形态、新冠主义、新冠政策、激进的拜登议程、激进的哈里斯议程，这样的例子不胜枚举。

But actually what’s missing in the conservative movement right now is what we actually stand for.

但实际上，目前保守派运动中缺少的是我们真正代表的东西。

What is our vision for the future of the country?

我们对国家未来的愿景是什么？

And I saw that as a deficit at the time I started my presidential campaign.

在我开始总统竞选时，我认为这是一种赤字。

It was in many ways the purpose of my campaign because I do feel that that’s why we didn’t have the red wave in 2022.

从很多方面来说，这都是我竞选活动的目的，因为我确实觉得这就是我们在 2022 年没有出现红色浪潮的原因。

They tried to blame Donald Trump.

他们试图指责唐纳德·特朗普。

They tried to blame abortion.

他们试图归咎于堕胎。

They blamed a bunch of individual specific issues or factors.

他们归咎于一系列个人的具体问题或因素。

I think the real reason we didn’t have that red wave was that we got so practiced at criticizing Joe Biden that we forgot to articulate who we are and what we stand for.

我认为我们没有掀起红色浪潮的真正原因是我们在批评乔·拜登方面太过熟练，以至于忘记了阐明我们是谁以及我们代表什么。

03:17 So what do we stand for as conservatives?

那么，作为保守派，我们代表什么呢？

I think we stand for the ideals that we fought the American Revolution for in 1776.

我认为我们代表着我们在 1776 年为美国革命而奋斗的理想。

Ideals like merit.

理想如功绩。

That the best person gets the job without regard to their genetics.

最优秀的人得到这份工作与他们的基因无关。

That you get ahead in this country, not on the color of your skin, but on the content of your character.

你在这个国家取得成功，不是靠肤色，而是靠性格。

Free speech, an open debate, not just as some sort of catchphrase, but the idea that any opinion, no matter how heinous, you get to express it in the United States of America.

言论自由，公开辩论，不仅仅是某种口号，而是任何观点，无论多么令人发指，你都可以在美利坚合众国表达它。

Self-governance and this is a big one right now, is that the people we elect to run the government, they’re no longer the ones who actually run the government.

自治，这是现在的一件大事，就是我们选举出来管理政府的人，他们不再是实际管理政府的人。

We, in the conservative movement, I believe, should believe in restoring self-governance where it’s not bureaucrats running the show, but actually elected representatives.

我认为，我们保守派运动应该相信恢复自治，不再由官僚主导，而是由民选代表实际主导。

04:03 And then the other ideal that the nation was founded on that I think we need to revive and I think as a north star of the conservative movement is restoring the rule of law in this country.

然后，我认为我们需要复兴这个国家的另一个理想，我认为作为保守运动的北极星，正在恢复这个国家的法治。

You think about even the abandonment of the rule of law at the southern border.

你甚至会想到南部边境法治的放弃。

It’s particularly personal to me as the kid of legal immigrants to this country.

作为这个国家的合法移民的孩子，这对我来说尤其个人化。

You and I actually share a couple of aspects in common in that regard.

实际上，你和我在这方面有几个共同点。

That also though means your first act of entering this country can’t break the law.

但这也意味着您进入这个国家的第一次行为不能违法。

So there’s some policy commitments and principles, merit, free speech, self-governance, rule of law.

所以有一些政策承诺和原则、优点、言论自由、自治、法治。

And then I think culturally what does it mean to be a conservative is it means we believe in the anchors of our identity, in truth, the value of the individual family, nation and God beat race, gender, sexuality and climate.

然后我认为，从文化上来说，保守派意味着什么，它意味着我们相信我们身份的锚点，事实上，个人家庭、国家和上帝的价值战胜了种族、性别、性取向和气候。

If we have the courage to actually stand for our own vision.

如果我们有勇气真正坚持自己的愿景。

And that’s a big part of what’s been missing.

这是所缺失的很大一部分。

And it’s a big part of not just through the campaign, but through a lot of my future advocacy, that’s the vacuum I’m aiming to fill.

这不仅是竞选活动的重要组成部分，也是我未来的许多倡导活动的重要组成部分，这就是我想要填补的真空。

Yeah, we’ll talk about each of those issues.

是的，我们将讨论每一个问题。

05:06 Immigration, the growing bureaucracy of government, religion is a really interesting topic, something you’ve spoken about a lot, but you’ve also had a lot of really tense debates.

移民、日益增长的政府官僚机构、宗教是一个非常有趣的话题，你已经谈论了很多，但也进行了很多非常紧张的辩论。

So you’re a perfect person to ask to steel man the other side.

所以你是向对方询问钢铁侠的最佳人选。

Yeah.

是的。

So let me ask you about progressivism.

那么让我问你关于进步主义的问题。

Sure.

当然。

Can you steel man the case for progressivism and left- wing ideas?

你能为进步主义和左翼思想辩护吗？

Yeah, so look, I think the strongest case, particularly for left-wing ideas in the United States, so in the American context, is that the country has been imperfect in living up to its ideals.

是的，所以看，我认为最有力的例子，特别是对于美国的左翼思想来说，所以在美国的背景下，是这个国家在实现其理想方面并不完美。

05:31 So even though our founding fathers preached the importance of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and freedom, they didn’t practice those values in terms of many of our founding fathers being slave owners, inequalities with respect to women and other disempowered such that they say that that created a power structure in this country that continues to last to this day.

因此，尽管我们的开国元勋宣扬生命、自由以及追求幸福和自由的重要性，但他们并没有实践这些价值观，因为我们的许多开国元勋都是奴隶主，对妇女和其他被剥夺权力的人存在不平等，他们说这在这个国家创造了一种持续至今的权力结构。

The vestiges of what happened even in 1860 in the course of human history isn’t that long ago and that we need to do everything in our power to correct for those imbalances in power in the United States.

1860 年发生的事情在人类历史进程中留下的痕迹并不遥远，我们需要尽一切努力纠正美国的权力失衡。

06:15 That’s the core view of the modern left.

这是现代左派的核心观点。

I’m not criticizing it right now, I’m steel manning it, I’m trying to give you I think a good of why the left believes they have a compelling case for the government stepping into correct for historical or present inequalities.

我现在不是在批评它，我是钢铁般的操纵者，我想告诉你为什么左派相信他们有令人信服的理由要求政府纠正历史或当前的不平等现象。

I can give you my counter rebuttal of that, but the best statement of the left, I think that it’s the fact that we’ve been imperfect in living up to those ideals.

我可以对此进行反驳，但左派最好的说法是，我认为事实上我们在实现这些理想方面并不完美。

In order to fix that, we’re going to have to take steps that are severe steps if needed to correct for those historical inequalities before we actually have true equality of opportunity in this country.

为了解决这个问题，在这个国家真正实现真正的机会平等之前，如果需要纠正这些历史不平等，我们将不得不采取严厉的措施。

That’s the case for the left-wing view in modern America.

现代美国的左翼观点就是如此。

So what’s your criticism of that?

那么你对此有何批评？

So my concern with it is even if that’s well-motivated, I think that it recreates many of the same problems that they were setting out to solve.

因此，我对此的担忧是，即使这是有充分动机的，我认为它也会重现他们打算解决的许多相同问题。

06:52 I’ll give you a really tangible example of that in the present right now.

我现在就给你一个切实可行的例子。

I may be alone amongst prominent conservatives who would say something like this right now, but I think it’s true, so I’m going to say it.

在著名的保守派中，我可能是唯一一个现在会说这样的话的人，但我认为这是真的，所以我要这么说。

I’m actually even in the last year, last year and a half, seeing actually a rise in anti-black and anti-minority racism in this country, which is a little curious.

事实上，我什至在去年、去年半年就看到这个国家反黑人和反少数族裔的种族主义有所抬头，这有点奇怪。

When over the last 10 years we got as close to Martin Luther King’s promise land as you could envision, a place where you have every American, regardless of their skin color, able to vote without obstruction, a place where you have people able to get the highest jobs in the land without race standing in their way.

在过去的十年里，我们越来越接近马丁·路德·金的希望之地，在那里，每个美国人，无论肤色如何，都能够不受阻碍地投票，在那里，人们能够在没有种族障碍的情况下获得国家最高的工作。

07:38 Why are we seeing that resurgence?

为什么我们会看到这种复苏？

In part, it’s because of I believe that left-wing obsession with racial equity over the course of the last 20 years in this country.

部分原因是我相信过去 20 年来这个国家的左翼对种族平等的痴迷。

And so when you take something away from someone based on their skin color, and that’s what correcting for prior injustice was supposed to do, the left-wing view is you have to correct for prior injustice by saying that whether you’re a white, straight, cis, man, you have certain privileges that you have to actually correct for.

因此，当你根据某人的肤色从某人身上拿走一些东西时，这就是纠正之前的不公正应该做的事情，左翼观点是你必须纠正之前的不公正，说无论你是白人、异性恋、顺性男人，你都拥有某些你必须真正纠正的特权。

When you take something away from somebody based on their genetics, you actually foster greater animus towards other groups around you.

当你根据某人的基因剥夺某些东西时，你实际上会对周围的其他群体产生更大的敌意。

And so the problem with that philosophy is that it creates several problems with it, but the most significant problem that I think everybody can agree we want to avoid is to actually fan the flames of the very divisions that you supposedly wanted to heal.

因此，这种哲学的问题在于，它带来了几个问题，但我认为每个人都同意我们想要避免的最重要的问题是实际上煽动了你本应想要弥合的分歧的火焰。

08:28 I see that in our context of our immigration policy as well.

我在我们的移民政策背景下也看到了这一点。

You think about even what’s going on in, I’m from Ohio, I was born and raised in Ohio and I live there today, the controversy in Springfield, Ohio.

你甚至想想正在发生的事情，我来自俄亥俄州，我在俄亥俄州出生和长大，我今天住在那里，俄亥俄州斯普林菲尔德的争议。

I personally don’t blame really any of the people who are in Springfield, either the native people born and raised in Springfield or even the Haitians who have been moved to Springfield.

我个人并不责怪斯普林菲尔德的任何人，无论是在斯普林菲尔德出生和长大的当地人，还是搬到斯普林菲尔德的海地人。

But it ends up becoming a divide and conquer strategy and outcome where if you put 20,000 people in a community where, 50,000 people, where the 20,000 are coming in don’t know the language, are unable to follow the traffic laws, are unable to assimilate, you know there’s going to be a reactionary backlash.

但它最终变成了一种分而治之的策略和结果，如果你把 20,000 人放在一个社区，其中 50,000 人，其中 20,000 人进来不懂语言，无法遵守交通法规，无法同化，你知道将会出现反动的反弹。

And so even though that began perhaps with some type of charitable instinct, some type of sympathy for people who went through the earthquake in 2010 in Haiti and achieved temporary protective status in the United States, what began with sympathy, what began with earnest intentions actually creates the very division and reactionary response that supposedly we say we wanted to avoid.

因此，尽管这可能是出于某种慈善本能，是对 2010 年海地地震并在美国获得临时保护地位的人们的某种同情，但始于同情、始于真诚的意图实际上造成了我们声称想要避免的分裂和反动反应。

So that’s my number one criticism of that left-wing worldview.

这是我对左翼世界观的第一个批评。

09:34 Number two is I do believe that merit and equity are actually incompatible.

第二，我确实相信优点和公平实际上是不相容的。

Merit and group quotas are incompatible.

功绩和团体配额不兼容。

You can have one or the other, you can’t have both.

你可以选择其中之一，但不能两者兼得。

And the reason why is no two people, and I think it’s the beautiful things, true between you and I, between you, I and all of our friends or family or strangers or neighbors or colleagues, no two people have the same skillsets.

原因是没有两个人，我认为这是美丽的事情，在你和我之间，在你、我和我们所有的朋友、家人、陌生人、邻居或同事之间，没有两个人拥有相同的技能。

We’re each endowed by different gifts.

我们每个人都被赋予了不同的天赋。

We’re each endowed with different talents.

我们每个人都被赋予了不同的才能。

And that’s the beauty of human diversity.

这就是人类多样性的美妙之处。

10:08 And a true meritocracy is a system in which you’re able to achieve the maximum of your God-given potential without anybody standing in your way.

真正的精英管理是一个让你能够最大限度地发挥上帝赋予的潜力而没有任何人阻碍的系统。

But that means necessarily there’s going to be differences in outcomes in a wide range of parameters, not just financial, not just money, not just fame or currency or whatever it is.

但这意味着结果必然会在很多参数上存在差异，不仅仅是财务，不仅仅是金钱，不仅仅是名誉或货币或其他任何东西。

There’s just going to be different outcomes for different people in different spheres of lives.

不同的人在不同的生活领域会产生不同的结果。

And that’s what meritocracy demands.

这就是精英管理所要求的。

It’s what it requires.

这就是它所需要的。

And so the left’s vision of group equity necessarily comes at the cost of meritocracy.

因此，左派对群体公平的愿景必然是以牺牲精英统治为代价的。

And so those would be my two reasons for opposing the view is one is it’s not meritocratic, but number two is it often even has the effect of hurting the very people they claimed to have wanted to help.

因此，这就是我反对这种观点的两个原因，一是它不是精英管理，但第二是它往往甚至会伤害他们声称想要帮助的人。

And I think that’s part of what we’re seeing in modern America.

我认为这就是我们在现代美国所看到的一部分。

Yeah, you had a pretty intense debate with Mark Cuban, a great conversation.

是的，你和马克·库班进行了一场非常激烈的辩论，这是一次很棒的谈话。

10:52 I think it’s on your podcast actually.

我认为它实际上在你的播客上。

Yeah.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

10:58 Yeah, it was great.

是的，太棒了。

Yeah, he was a good guy to talk to.

是的，他是一个很好说话的人。

It was great.

太棒了。

11:00 Okay.

好的。

Well, speaking of good guys, he messages me all the time with beautifully eloquent criticism.

嗯，说到好人，他总是给我发信息，用优美而雄辩的批评。

I appreciate that, Mark.

我很感激，马克。

What was one of the more convincing things he said to you?

他对你说过的最有说服力的事情之一是什么？

You’re mostly focused on kind of DEI.

您主要关注 DEI 类型。

So let’s just take a step back and understand because people use these acronyms and then they start saying it out of muscle memory and stop asking what it actually means.

因此，让我们退后一步来理解，因为人们使用这些缩写词，然后他们开始出于肌肉记忆而说出它，而不再询问它的实际含义。

11:15 DEI refers to capital D, diversity, equity and inclusion, which is a philosophy adopted by institutions principally in the private sector, companies, nonprofits and universities, to say that they need to strive for specific forms of racial, gender and sexual orientation diversity.

DEI指资本D，即多样性、公平性和包容性，这是主要由私营部门、公司、非营利组织和大学等机构采用的理念，表示他们需要努力实现特定形式的种族、性别和性取向多样性。

And it’s not just the D, it’s equity in ensuring that you have equal outcomes as measured by certain group quota targets or group representation targets that they would meet in their ranks.

这不仅仅是 D，它是确保你拥有平等结果的公平性，这是通过他们在队伍中达到的某些群体配额目标或群体代表性目标来衡量的。

The problem with the DEI agenda is in the name of diversity, it actually has been a vehicle for sacrificing true diversity of thought.

DEI 议程的问题在于多样性的名义，它实际上是牺牲真正思想多样性的工具。

So the way the argument goes is this, is that we have to create an environment that is receptive to minorities and minority views, but if certain opinions are themselves deemed to be hostile to those minorities, then you have to exclude those opinions in the name of the capital D diversity.

所以争论的方式是这样的，我们必须创造一个接受少数群体和少数群体观点的环境，但如果某些观点本身被认为对这些少数群体怀有敌意，那么你就必须以资本 D 多样性的名义排除这些观点。

But that means that you’re necessarily sacrificing actual diversity of thought.

但这意味着你必然要牺牲思想的实际多样性。

12:21 I can give you a very specific example.

我可以给你一个非常具体的例子。

That might sound like, “Okay, well, is it such a bad thing if an organization doesn’t want to exclude people who are saying racist things on a given day?” We could debate that.

这听起来可能像是，“好吧，如果一个组织不想排除在某一天发表种族主义言论的人，这是一件坏事吗？”我们可以对此进行辩论。

But let’s get to the tangible world of how that actually plays out.

但让我们进入有形的世界，看看它是如何实际发挥作用的。

I, for my part, have not really heard in ordinary America people uttering racial epithets if you’re going to restaurant or in the grocery store.

就我而言，如果你要去餐馆或杂货店，普通美国人还没有真正听到过种族歧视的绰号。

It’s not something I’ve encountered, certainly not in the workplace.

这不是我遇到过的事情，当然也没有在工作场所遇到过。

But that’s a theoretical case, let’s talk about the real world case of how this plays out.

但这只是一个理论案例，让我们来谈谈现实世界中的情况是如何发生的。

So there was an instance, it was a case that presented itself before the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the EEOC, one of the government enforcers of the DEI agenda.

因此，有一个例子，这是一个提交给平等就业机会委员会（EEOC）的案例，该委员会是 DEI 议程的政府执行者之一。

And there was a case of a woman who wore a red sweater on Fridays in celebration of veterans and those who had served the military and invited others in the workplace to do the same thing.

还有一个例子是，一名女性在周五穿着红色毛衣来庆祝退伍军人和曾在军队服役的人，并邀请工作场所的其他人也做同样的事情。

13:08 And they had a kind of affinity group, you could call it that, a veteran type affinity group, appreciating those who had served.

他们有一种亲和力小组，你可以称之为退伍军人型亲和力小组，感谢那些曾经服务过的人。

Her son had served as well.

她的儿子也曾服役。

There was a minority employee at that business who said that he found that to be a microaggression.

该公司的一名少数族裔员工表示，他发现这是一种微侵犯。

So the employer asked her to stop wearing said clothes too, the office.

因此雇主也要求她在办公室停止穿上述衣服。

Well, she still felt like she wanted to celebrate, I think, it was Friday was the day of the week where they did it.

好吧，她仍然觉得她想庆祝，我想，周五是他们一周中的一天。

She still wore the red sweater and she didn’t wear it, but she would hang it on the back of her seat, put it on the back of her seat at the office.

她还是穿着那件红毛衣，她不穿，但她会把它挂在椅背上，放在办公室的椅背上。

They said, “No, you can’t do that either.” So the irony is in the name of this capital D diversity, which is creating a supposedly welcoming workplace for all kinds of Americans by focusing only on certain kinds of so-called diversity, that translates into actually not even a diversity of your genetics, which is what they claim to be solving for, but also a hostility to diversity of thought.

他们说：“不，你也不能这样做。”因此，具有讽刺意味的是，这种资本 D 多样性的名义，它通过只关注某些所谓的多样性，为所有类型的美国人创造了一个所谓的欢迎工作场所，这实际上甚至不是你的基因多样性，这是他们声称要解决的问题，而是对思想多样性的敌意。

14:01 And I think that’s dangerous.

我认为这很危险。

And you’re seeing that happen in the last four years across this country.

你会看到过去四年全国各地都发生了这种情况。

It’s been pretty rampant.

它非常猖獗。

I think it leaves America worse off.

我认为这会让美国的处境变得更糟。

The beauty of America is we’re a country where we should be able to have institutions that are stronger from different points of view being expressed.

美国的美妙之处在于我们是一个能够拥有更强大的机构来表达不同观点的国家。

But my number one criticism of the DEI agenda is not even that it’s anti-meritocratic, it is anti-meritocratic, but my number one criticism is it’s actually hostile to the free and open exchange of ideas by creating often legal liabilities for organizations that even permit certain viewpoints to be expressed.

但我对 DEI 议程的第一个批评甚至不是它是反精英的，它是反精英的，但我的第一个批评是它实际上对自由和开放的思想交流怀有敌意，因为它经常给甚至允许表达某些观点的组织带来法律责任。

And I think that’s the biggest concern.

我认为这是最大的担忧。

I think what Mark would say is that diversity allows you to look for talent in places where you haven’t looked before and therefore find really special talents, special people.

我认为马克想说的是，多样性可以让你在以前没有见过的地方寻找人才，从而找到真正特殊的人才、特殊的人。

14:35 I think that’s the case he made.

我认为这就是他提出的情况。

He did make that case and it was a great conversation.

他确实证明了这一点，这是一次很棒的谈话。

14:50 And my response to that is great, that’s a good thing.

我对此的反应很好，这是一件好事。

We don’t need a three-letter acronym to do that.

我们不需要三个字母的缩写来做到这一点。

You don’t need special programmatic DEI incentives to do it because companies are always going to seek in a truly free market, which I think we’re missing in the United States today for a lot of reasons, but in a truly free market, companies will have the incentive to hire the best and brightest or else they’re going to be less competitive versus other companies.

你不需要特殊的程序性 DEI 激励措施来做到这一点，因为公司总是会寻求真正的自由市场，我认为我们今天在美国由于很多原因而缺少这种市场，但在真正的自由市场中，公司将有动力雇用最优秀和最聪明的人，否则他们与其他公司相比将缺乏竞争力。

But you don’t need ESG, DEI, CSR regimes in part enforced by the government to do it.

但你不需要政府部分强制执行的 ESG、DEI、CSR 制度来做到这一点。

15:23 Today, to be a government contractor, for example, you have to adopt certain racial and gender representation targets in your workforce.

例如，如今，要成为政府承包商，您必须在劳动力中采用某些种族和性别代表性目标。

That’s not the free market working.

这不是自由市场的运作方式。

So I think you can’t have it both ways either.

所以我认为你也不能两者兼得。

It’s going to be good for companies and companies are going to do what’s in their self-interest.

这对公司有利，公司也会做符合自身利益的事情。

That’s what capitalists like Mark Cuban and I believe.

这就是像马克·库班和我这样的资本家所相信的。

But if we really believe that, then we should let the market work rather than forcing it to adopt these top-down standards.

但如果我们真的相信这一点，那么我们应该让市场发挥作用，而不是强迫它采用这些自上而下的标准。

That’s my issue with it.

这是我的问题。

I don’t know what it is about human psychology, but whenever you have a sort of administration, a committee that gets together to do a good thing, the committee starts to use the good thing, the ideology behind wish there’s a good ideal, to bully people and to do bad things.

我不知道人类心理学是什么，但是每当你有一个行政机构，一个委员会聚集在一起做一件好事时，委员会就开始利用好事，希望有一个好的理想背后的意识形态，来欺负人们并做坏事。

15:45 I don’t know what it is.

我不知道那是什么。

This has less to do with left-wing versus right-wing ideology and more the nature of a bureaucracy is one that looks after its own existence as its top goal.

这与左翼与右翼意识形态关系不大，更多的是官僚机构的本质是将自身存在作为其最高目标。

16:06 So part of what you’ve seen with the so-called perpetuation of wokeness in American life is that the bureaucracy has used the appearance of virtue to actually deflect accountabilities for its own failure.

因此，你所看到的美国生活中所谓的觉醒的永久存在，是官僚机构利用美德的外表，实际上转移了对其自身失败的责任。

So you’ve seen that in several different spheres of American life.

所以你已经在美国生活的几个不同领域看到了这一点。

You could even talk about in the military.

你甚至可以谈论军队。

You think about our entry into Iraq after 9/11 had nothing to do with the state objectives that we had.

你认为我们在 9/11 之后进入伊拉克与我们的国家目标无关。

And I think by all accounts, it was a policy move we regret.

我认为从各方面来看，这是我们感到遗憾的政策举措。

Our policy ranks and our foreign policy establishment made a mistake in entering Iraq, invading a country that really by all accounts was not at all responsible for 9/11.

我们的政策队伍和外交政策机构在进入伊拉克时犯了一个错误，入侵了一个实际上与9/11无关的国家。

Nonetheless, if you’re part of the US military or you’re General Mark Milley, you would rather talk about white rage or systemic racism than you would actually talk about the military’s actual substantive failures.

尽管如此，如果你是美国军队的一员或者你是马克·米利将军，你宁愿谈论白人愤怒或系统性种族主义，也不愿谈论军队实际的实质性失败。

17:11 It’s what I call the practice of blowing woke smoke to deflect accountability.

这就是我所说的通过吹醒烟雾来转移责任的做法。

You could say the same thing with respect to the educational system.

对于教育系统，你也可以说同样的话。

It’s a lot easier to claim that, and I’m not the one making this claim, but others have made this claim, that math is racist because there are inequitable results on objective tests of mathematics based on different demographic attributes.

声称数学是种族主义的人要容易得多，而且我不是提出这一说法的人，但其他人也提出了这一说法，因为基于不同人口统计特征的数学客观测试存在不公平的结果。

You can claim using that then math is racist.

你可以声称数学是种族主义的。

It’s a lot easier to blow that woke smoke than it is to accept accountability for failing to teach black kids in the inner city how to actually do math and fix our public school systems and the zip code coded mechanism for trapping kids in poor communities in bad schools.

吹起烟雾比接受责任要容易得多，因为未能教会内城区的黑人孩子如何真正做数学，修复我们的公立学校系统和邮政编码机制，将贫困社区的孩子困在糟糕的学校里。

So I think that in many cases, what these bureaucracies do is they use the appearance of signaling this virtue as a way of not really advancing a social cause, but of strengthening the power of the bureaucracy itself and insulating that bureaucracy from criticism.

所以我认为，在很多情况下，这些官僚机构所做的就是利用这种美德的表象，并不是真正推进社会事业，而是加强官僚机构本身的权力并使官僚机构免受批评。

18:05 So in many ways, bureaucracy, I think, cars the channels through which much of this woke ideology has flowed over the last several years.

因此，我认为，从很多方面来说，官僚机构是过去几年中大部分觉醒意识形态流动的渠道。

And that’s why part of my focus has shifted away from just combating wokeness because that’s just a symptom, I think, versus combating actual bureaucracy itself.

这就是为什么我的部分注意力已经从与觉醒作斗争转移，因为我认为这只是一种症状，而不是与实际的官僚主义本身作斗争。

The rise of this managerial class, the rise of the deep state.

这个管理阶层的崛起，就是深层政府的崛起。

We talk about that in the government, but the deep state doesn’t just exist in the government.

我们在政府中谈论这一点，但深层政府不仅仅存在于政府中。

It exists I think in every sphere of our lives, from companies to nonprofits to universities.

我认为它存在于我们生活的各个领域，从公司到非营利组织再到大学。

It’s the rise of we call the managerial class, the committee class, the people who professionally sit on committees, I think are wielding far more power today than actual creators, entrepreneurs, original ideators and ordinary citizens alike.

这是我们所说的管理阶层、委员会阶层的兴起，我认为这些专业人士担任委员会的人，他们今天比实际的创造者、企业家、原创思想家和普通公民拥有更多的权力。

Yeah, you need managers, but as few as possible.

是的，你需要经理，但越少越好。

18:54 It seems like when you have a giant managerial class, the actual doers don’t get to do.

似乎当你有一个庞大的管理阶层时，真正的实干家却无能为力。

But like you said, bureaucracy is a phenomena of both the left and the right.

但正如你所说，官僚主义是左派和右派的现象。

This is not-

这不是——

It’s not even a left or right, it’s just transcends that, but it’s anti-American at its core.

它甚至不是左派或右派，它只是超越了这一点，但它的核心是反美。

19:13 So our founding fathers, they were anti-bureaucratic at their core actually, they were the pioneers, the explorers, the unafraid.

所以我们的开国元勋们，他们的核心实际上是反官僚主义的，他们是先驱者、探索者、无所畏惧的人。

They were the inventors, the creators.

他们是发明家、创造者。

People forget this about Benjamin Franklin who signed the Declaration of Independence, one of the great inventors that we have in the United States as well.

人们忘记了签署《独立宣言》的本杰明·富兰克林，他也是美国最伟大的发明家之一。

He invented the lightning rod.

他发明了避雷针。

He invented the Franklin stove, which was actually one of the great innovations in the field of thermodynamics.

他发明了富兰克林炉，这实际上是热力学领域的伟大创新之一。

He even invented a number of musical instruments that Mozart and Beethoven went on to use.

他甚至发明了莫扎特和贝多芬继续使用的许多乐器。

That’s just Benjamin Franklin.

那就是本杰明·富兰克林。

So you think, “Oh, he’s a one-off.” Everybody say, okay, he was the one zany founder who was also a creative scientific innovator who happened to be one of the founders of the country.

所以你会想，“哦，他是一次性的。”每个人都说，好吧，他是一位滑稽的创始人，也是一位富有创造力的科学创新者，恰好是这个国家的创始人之一。

Wrong, it wasn’t unique to him.

错了，这并不是他独有的。

You have Thomas Jefferson.

你有托马斯·杰斐逊。

What are you sitting in right now?

你现在坐在什么位置？

You’re sitting on a swivel chair.

你坐在转椅上。

Okay.

好的。

Who invented the swivel chair?

转椅是谁发明的？

Thomas Jefferson?

托马斯·杰斐逊？

Yes, Thomas Jefferson.

是的，托马斯·杰斐逊。

Yeah.

是的。

Funny enough, he invented the swivel chair while he was writing the Declaration of Independence, which is insane.

有趣的是，他在撰写《独立宣言》时发明了转椅，这太疯狂了。

You’re the one that reminded me that he drafted, he wrote the Declaration of Independence when he was 33.

你让我想起了他在 33 岁时起草、撰写了《独立宣言》。

And he was 33 when he did it while inventing the swivel chair.

当他发明转椅时，他已经33岁了。

I like how you’re focused on the swivel chair.

我喜欢你专注于转椅的方式。

20:24 Can we just pause on the Declaration of Independence?

我们可以暂停《独立宣言》吗？

It makes me feel horrible.

这让我感觉很可怕。

But the Declaration of Independence part, everybody knows.

但《独立宣言》的部分，大家都知道。

20:31 What people don’t know, he was an architect.

人们不知道的是，他是一名建筑师。

So he worked in Virginia, but the Virginia State Capital Dome, so the building that’s in Virginia today where the state capital is, that dome was actually designed by Thomas Jefferson as well.

所以他在弗吉尼亚州工作，但是弗吉尼亚州首府圆顶，所以今天弗吉尼亚州首府所在的建筑，那个圆顶实际上也是由托马斯·杰斐逊设计的。

So these people weren’t people who sat on professional committees, they weren’t bureaucrats, they hated bureaucracy.

所以这些人不是专业委员会的成员，他们不是官僚，他们讨厌官僚主义。

Part of Old World England is Old World England was committed to the idea of bureaucracy.

旧世界英格兰的一部分是旧世界英格兰致力于官僚主义的理念。

Bureaucracy and monarchy go hand in hand.

官僚制和君主制是齐头并进的。

A monarch can’t actually administer or govern directly, it requires bureaucracy, a machine to actually technocratically govern for him.

君主实际上不能直接管理或统治，它需要官僚机构，一个真正为他进行技术统治的机器。

So the United States of America was founded on the idea that we reject that Old World view.

因此，美利坚合众国的建立是基于我们拒绝旧世界观点的理念。

The Old World vision was that we the people cannot be trusted to self-govern or make decisions for ourselves.

旧世界的愿景是，不能相信我们人民能够自治或为自己做决定。

We would burn ourselves off the planet, is the modern version of this, with existential risks like global climate change, if we just leave it to the people and their democratic will.

如果我们把它留给人民和他们的民主意愿，我们就会把自己从地球上烧掉，这是这个问题的现代版本，伴随着全球气候变化等生存风险。

21:33 That’s why you need professional technocrats, educated elites, enlightened bureaucrats to be able to set limits that actually protect people from their own worst impulses.

这就是为什么你需要专业的技术官僚、受过教育的精英、开明的官僚来设定限制，真正保护人们免受自己最糟糕的冲动的影响。

That’s the Old World view and most nations in human history have operated this way, but what made the United States of America itself, to know what made America great, we have to know what made America itself, what made America itself is we said hell no to that vision, that we the people, for better or worse, are going to self-govern without the committee class restraining what we do.

这是旧世界的观点，人类历史上的大多数国家都是这样运作的，但是是什么造就了美利坚合众国本身，要知道是什么让美国变得伟大，我们必须知道是什么造就了美国本身，是什么造就了美国本身，我们对这种愿景说不，我们人民，无论好坏，都将在没有委员会阶级限制我们行为的情况下进行自治。

And the likes of Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin and I could give you examples of John Adams or Robert Livingston, you go straight down the list of founding fathers who were inventors, creators, pioneers, explorers, who also were the very people who came together to sign the Declaration of Independence.

杰斐逊、本杰明·富兰克林和我可以给你举约翰·亚当斯或罗伯特·利文斯顿的例子，你可以直接沿着开国元勋的名单往下看，他们是发明家、创造者、先驱者、探险家，他们也是聚集在一起签署《独立宣言》的人。

And so yeah, this rise of bureaucracy in America in every sphere of life, I view it as anti-American actually.

所以，是的，美国生活各个领域官僚主义的兴起，我认为实际上是反美的。

And I hope that conservatives and liberals alike can get behind my crusade certainly to get in there and shut most of it down.

我希望保守派和自由派都能够支持我的十字军东征，肯定会介入并关闭其中的大部分。

Yeah, speaking of shutting most of it down, how do you propose we do that?

是的，说到关闭大部分，您建议我们如何做到这一点？

22:36 How do we make government more efficient?

如何让政府更有效率？

How to make it smaller?

怎样才能让它变小呢？

What are the different ideas of how to do that?

如何做到这一点有哪些不同的想法？

Well, the first thing I’ll say is you’re always taking a risk.

好吧，我要说的第一件事是你总是在冒险。

22:48 Okay, there’s no free lunch here.

好吧，天下没有免费的午餐。

Mostly, at least.

至少大部分是这样。

You’re always taking a risk.

你总是在冒险。

One risk is that you say I want to reform it gradually, I want to have a grand master plan and get to exactly what the right end state is and then carefully cut with a chisel, like a work of art, to get there.

一个风险是，你说我想逐步改革它，我想有一个宏伟的总体规划，并准确地达到正确的最终状态，然后用凿子小心地切割，就像一件艺术品一样，以达到目标。

I don’t believe that approach works.

我不认为这种方法有效。

I think that’s an approach that conservatives have taken for many years.

我认为这是保守派多年来采取的方法。

I think it hasn’t gotten us very far.

我认为这并没有让我们走得太远。

And the reason is if you have an eight-headed hydra and you cut off one of the heads, it grows right back.

原因是，如果你有一只八头九头蛇，你砍掉其中一个头，它就会重新长出来。

So that’s the risk of not cutting enough.

这就是削减不够的风险。

The other risk you could take is the risk of cutting too much.

您可能承担的另一个风险是削减过多的风险。

To say that I’m going to cut so much that I’m going to take the risk of not just cutting the fat, but also cutting some muscle along the way, but I’m going to take that risk.

说我要减掉这么多，以至于我要冒着不仅要减掉脂肪，还要减掉一些肌肉的风险，但我会冒这个风险。

23:36 I can’t give you option C, which is to say that I’m going to cut exactly the right amount, I’m going to do it perfectly.

我不能给你选项C，也就是说我要削减恰到好处的数量，我要做得完美。

Okay, you don’t know ex-ante, you don’t know beforehand that it’s exactly how it’s going to, so that’s a meaningless claim.

好吧，你事前不知道，你事先不知道事情到底会怎样，所以这是一个毫无意义的说法。

It’s only a question of which risk you’re going to take.

这只是您要承担哪种风险的问题。

I believe in the moment we live in right now, the second risk is the risk we have to be willing to take.

我相信，在我们现在生活的时刻，第二个风险是我们必须愿意承担的风险。

And we haven’t had a class of politician, Donald Trump in 2016 was I think the closest we’ve gotten and I think the second term will be even closer to what we need, but short of that, I don’t think we’ve really had a class of politician who has gotten very serious about cutting so much that you’re also going to cut some fat, but not only some fat, but also some muscle.

我们还没有一个政客阶层，2016年的唐纳德·特朗普是我认为我们最接近的政客，我认为第二个任期将更接近我们所需要的，但除此之外，我认为我们还没有一个政客阶层非常认真地削减如此多的脂肪，以至于你还要削减一些脂肪，但不仅是一些脂肪，还有一些肌肉。

24:19 That’s the risk we have to take.

这就是我们必须承担的风险。

So the way I would do it, 75% headcount reduction across the board in the federal bureaucracy, send them home packing, shut down agencies that shouldn’t exist, rescind every unconstitutional regulation that Congress never passed.

所以我会采取的方式是，全面削减联邦官僚机构 75% 的员工人数，让他们打包回家，关闭不应该存在的机构，废除国会从未通过的每一项违宪法规。

In a true self-governing democracy, it should be our elected representatives that make the laws and the rules not unelected bureaucrats.

在真正的自治民主国家中，制定法律和规则的应该是我们选出的代表，而不是未经选举产生的官僚。

And that is the single greatest form of economic stimulus we could have in this country, but it is also the single most effective way to restore self-governance in our country as well.

这是我们国家可以采取的最有效的经济刺激措施，也是恢复我国自治的最有效的方式。

And it is the blueprint for, I think, how we save this country.

我认为，这是我们如何拯救这个国家的蓝图。

That’s pretty gangster, 75%.

这是相当强盗，75%。

24:57 There’s this kind of almost meme like video of Argentinian President Javier Milei, where on a whiteboard, he has all the I think 18 ministries lined up and he’s ripping, “Department of Education, gone,” and he’s just going like this.

有一段类似阿根廷总统哈维尔·米莱的模因视频，在白板上，他把我认为的 18 个部委都排成了一排，他撕扯着，“教育部，走了，”他就这样走了。

Now, the situation in Argentina is pretty dire and the situation in the United States is not, despite everybody saying the empire is falling, this is still, in my opinion, the greatest nation on earth.

现在，阿根廷的情况相当严峻，而美国的情况则不然，尽管每个人都说帝国正在崩溃，但在我看来，这仍然是地球上最伟大的国家。

Still, the economy is doing very well.

尽管如此，经济仍表现良好。

Still, this is the hub of culture, the hub of innovation, the hub of so many amazing things.

尽管如此，这里仍然是文化的中心、创新的中心、许多令人惊奇的事物的中心。

Do you think it’s possible to do something like firing 75% of people in government when things are going relatively well?

你认为当事情进展相对顺利时，有可能采取诸如解雇 75% 的政府人员之类的做法吗？

Yes, in fact, I think it’s necessary and essential.

是的，事实上，我认为这是必要的、必要的。

25:59 I think things depends on what your level of well really is, what you’re benchmarking against.

我认为这取决于你的实际水平以及你的基准。

America’s not built on complacency.

美国并不是建立在自满之上的。

We’re built on the pursuit of excellence.

我们建立在追求卓越的基础上。

And are we still the greatest nation on planet earth?

我们仍然是地球上最伟大的国家吗？

I believe we are.

我相信我们是。

I agree with you on that.

我同意你的观点。

But are we great as we could possibly be or even as we have been in the past, measured against our own standards of excellence?

但是，根据我们自己的卓越标准来衡量，我们是否达到了我们可能达到的水平，或者甚至达到了我们过去的水平？

No, we’re not.

不，我们不是。

I think the nation is in a trajectory of decline.

我认为这个国家正处于衰落的轨道上。

That doesn’t mean it’s the end of the empire yet.

这并不意味着帝国的终结还没有到来。

But we are a nation in decline right now.

但我们现在是一个正在衰落的国家。

I don’t think we have to be.

我认为我们不必如此。

But part of that decline is driven by the rise of this managerial class, the bureaucracy sucking the lifeblood out of the country, sucking the lifeblood out of our innovative culture, our culture of self-governance.

但这种衰落的部分原因是管理阶层的崛起，官僚机构吸走了这个国家的命脉，吸走了我们的创新文化和自治文化的命脉。

26:47 So is it possible?

那么有可能吗？

Yeah, it’s really possible.

是的，这确实有可能。

I’ll tell you one easy way to do it.

我会告诉你一种简单的方法。

This is a little bit, I’m being a little bit glib here, but I think it’s not crazy, at least as a thought experiment.

这有点，我在这里有点油嘴滑舌，但我认为这并不疯狂，至少作为一个思想实验。

Get in there on day one, say that anybody in the federal bureaucracy who is not elected, elected representatives obviously were elected by the people, but the people who are not elected, if your social security number ends in an odd number, you’re out, if it ends in an even number, you’re in.

第一天就进来，说联邦官僚机构中任何一个不是选举产生的，民选代表显然是由人民选举产生的，但是那些没有选举出来的人，如果你的社会安全号码以奇数结尾，你就出局了，如果它以偶数结尾，你就加入了。

There’s a 50% cut right there.

那里有 50% 的削减。

Of those who remain, if your social security number starts in an even number, you’re in and if it starts with an odd number, you’re out.

在留下来的人中，如果你的社会安全号码以偶数开头，你就可以加入，如果它以奇数开头，你就退出。

Boom.

繁荣。

That’s a 75% reduction done.

减少了 75%。

Literally, stochastically, okay, one of the virtues of that, it’s a thought experiment, not a policy prescription, but one of the virtues of that thought experiment is that you don’t have a bunch of lawsuits you’re dealing with about gender discrimination or racial discrimination or political viewpoint discrimination.

从字面上看，随机地，好吧，它的优点之一是，这是一个思想实验，而不是政策处方，但该思想实验的优点之一是，你不会遇到一堆关于性别歧视或种族歧视或政治观点歧视的诉讼。

27:42 Actually, the reality is you’ve at mass, you didn’t bring the chisel, you brought a chainsaw, I guarantee you do that on day one and do step two on day two, on day three, not a thing will have changed for the ordinary American other than this size of their government being a lot smaller and more restrained, spending a lot less money to operate it.

事实上，现实情况是，你参加了弥撒，你没有带凿子，你带了电锯，我保证你在第一天就这样做，在第二天、第三天做第二步，对于普通美国人来说，除了政府规模小得多、更加克制、运作成本少得多之外，没有任何事情会改变。

And most people who have run a company, especially larger companies know this, it’s 25% of the people who do 80 to 90% of the useful work, these government agencies are no different.

大多数经营过公司的人，尤其是大公司都知道这一点，25%的人做了80%到90%的有用工作，这些政府机构也不例外。

So now imagine you could do that same thought experiment, but not just doing it at random, but do it still at large scale while having some metric of screening for those who actually had both the greatest competence as well as the greatest commitment and knowledge of the Constitution.

现在想象一下，你可以做同样的思想实验，但不仅仅是随机地进行，而是大规模地进行，同时对那些实际上拥有最大能力以及对宪法最大承诺和知识的人进行一些筛选。

28:26 That I think would immediately raise not only the civic character of the United States, now we feel, okay, the people we elect to run the government, they’ve got the power back, they’re running the government again, as opposed to the unelected bureaucrats who wield the power today, it would also stimulate the economy.

我认为这不仅会立即提高美国的公民品格，现在我们感觉，好吧，我们选出的管理政府的人，他们已经重新获得了权力，他们再次管理政府，而不是今天掌握权力的未经选举的官僚，这也会刺激经济。

The regulatory state is like a wet blanket on the American economy.

监管国家就像是美国经济的湿毯。

Most of it is unconstitutional.

其中大部分是违宪的。

All we require is leadership with a spine to get in there and actually do what conservative presidents have maybe gestured towards and talked about, but have not really effectuated ever in modern history.

我们所需要的只是有骨气的领导力，能够真正做到保守派总统可能已经表示和谈论过的事情，但在现代历史上从未真正实现过。

And by the way, that kind of thing would attract the ultra-competent that actually want to work in government.

顺便说一句，这种事情会吸引那些真正想在政府工作的超级有能力的人。

Exactly.

确切地。

29:05 Which you’re missing today because right now, the government would swallow them up.

你今天错过了这一点，因为现在政府会把它们吞掉。

Most competent people feel like that bureaucratic machine will swallow them whole.

大多数有能力的人都觉得官僚机器会把他们整个吞掉。

You clear the decks of 75% of them, real innovators can then show up.

当你清理掉其中 75% 的人时，真正的创新者就会出现。

Yeah.

是的。

29:18 There’s kind of this cynical view of capitals where people think that the only reason you do anything is to earn more money, but I think a lot of people would want to work in government to build something that’s helpful to a huge number of people.

人们对资本有一种愤世嫉俗的看法，人们认为你做任何事情的唯一原因就是赚更多的钱，但我认为很多人都想在政府工作，建立一些对很多人有帮助的东西。

Yeah.

是的。

29:32 Well, look, I think there’s opportunities for the very best to have large scale impact in all kinds of different institutions in our universities to K through 12 education, through entrepreneurship, I’m obviously very biased in that regard.

嗯，你看，我认为最优秀的人才有机会在我们大学的各种不同机构中通过创业从 K 到 12 教育产生大规模影响，我在这方面显然非常有偏见。

I think there’s a lot you’re able to create that you couldn’t create through government.

我认为有很多东西是你可以创造的，而这些是政府无法创造的。

But I do think in the moment that we live in where our government is as broken as it is and as responsible for the declining nature of our country, yeah, I think bringing in people who are unafraid, talented and able to have an impact could make all of the difference.

但我确实认为，目前我们生活的政府已经支离破碎，而且对我们国家的衰落负有责任，是的，我认为引进那些无所畏惧、才华横溢、能够产生影响的人可能会带来很大的不同。

And I agree with you, I don’t think actually most people, even most people who say they’re motivated by money, I don’t think are actually motivated by money.

我同意你的观点，我认为实际上大多数人，即使是大多数说自己受金钱驱动的人，我也不认为实际上是受金钱驱动的。

I think most people are driven by a belief that they can do more than they’re being permitted to do right now with their skillsets.

我认为大多数人都相信自己可以用自己的技能做比现在被允许做的更多的事情。

I’ve run a number of companies and one of the things that I used to ask when I was, I’m not day-to-day involved in them anymore, but as a CEO, I would ask when I did interviews, in the first company I started, at Roivant, for four years in, company was pretty big by that point, I would still intent on interviewing every candidate before they joined, screening for the culture of that person.

我经营过很多家公司，我以前问过的一件事，我现在不再参与其中，但作为首席执行官，我在面试时会问，在我创办的第一家公司，在 Roivant，四年了，公司已经相当大了，我仍然会在每个候选人加入之前面试他们，筛选那个人的文化。

I can talk a lot more about things we did to build that culture.

我可以更多地谈论我们为建立这种文化所做的事情。

But one of the questions I would always ask them naturally just to start a conversation, it’s a pretty basic question, is why did you leave your last job or why are you leaving your last job?

但我总是会自然地问他们一个问题，只是为了开始对话，这是一个非常基本的问题，你为什么离开上一份工作，或者你为什么要离开上一份工作？

I’ll tell you what I didn’t hear very often, is that I wasn’t paid enough.

我会告诉你我不常听到的，那就是我没有得到足够的报酬。

And maybe they’d be shy to tell you that during an interview, but there’s indirect ways to signal that.

也许他们在面试时害羞地告诉你这一点，但有一些间接的方法可以表明这一点。

That really wasn’t at all even a top 10 reason why people were leaving their job.

这甚至根本不是人们离职的十大原因。

31:21 I’ll give you what the number one reason was, is that they felt like they were unable to do the true maximum of what their potential was in their prior role.

我告诉你第一个原因是，他们觉得自己无法在之前的角色中真正发挥出最大的潜力。

That’s the number one reason people leave their job.

这是人们离职的首要原因。

And by the way, I would say that as I’m saying that in a self boastful way that we would attract these people.

顺便说一句，我想说的是，正如我以一种自吹自擂的方式说的那样，我们会吸引这些人。

I think that’s also true for most of the people who left the company as well, Roivant.

我认为对于大多数离开公司的人来说也是如此，Roivant。

And that was true at Roivant, it’s at other companies I’ve started.

在 Roivant 是这样，在我创办的其他公司也是如此。

I think the number one reason people join companies and number one people leave companies, whether they’ve been to join mine or to leave mine in the past, have been that they feel like they’re able to do more than they’re able to with their skillset than that environment permits them to actually achieve.

我认为人们加入公司和离开公司的首要原因，无论他们过去加入过我的公司还是离开过我的公司，都是因为他们觉得自己能够做的事情超出了他们的技能范围，超出了环境允许他们实际实现的目标。

And so I think that’s what people hung for.

所以我认为这就是人们所渴望的。

32:06 When we think about capitalism and true free market capitalism, and we used words earlier like meritocracy, it’s about building a system, whether it’s in a nation or whether it’s even within an organization, that allows every individual to flourish and achieve the maximum of their potential.

当我们思考资本主义和真正的自由市场资本主义时，我们之前使用过诸如精英管理之类的词，它是关于建立一个体系，无论是在一个国家还是在一个组织内部，让每个人都能蓬勃发展并发挥最大潜力。

And sometimes it just doesn’t match for an organization, where let’s say the mission is here and somebody’s skillsets could be really well aligned to a different mission, then the right answer is it’s not a negative thing, it’s just that person needs to leave and find their mission somewhere else.

有时它与一个组织不匹配，假设任务就在这里，而某人的技能可以很好地适应不同的任务，那么正确的答案是，这不是一件消极的事情，只是这个人需要离开并在其他地方找到他们的任务。

But to bring that back to government, I think part of what’s happened right now is that the rise of that bureaucracy in so many of these government agencies has actually obfuscated the mission of these agencies.

但回到政府，我认为现在发生的部分情况是，许多政府机构中官僚主义的兴起实际上混淆了这些机构的使命。

I think if you went to most federal bureaucracies and just asked them what’s the mission, I’m just making one up off the top of my head right now, the Department of Health and Human Services, what is the mission of HHS in the United States of America?

我想，如果你去大多数联邦官僚机构，问他们的使命是什么，我现在只是凭空想象一个，卫生与公众服务部，HHS 在美利坚合众国的使命是什么？

I doubt somebody who works there, even the person who leads it, could give you…

我怀疑在那里工作的人，甚至是领导者，能给你……

33:00 I doubt somebody who works there, even the person who leads it, could give you a coherent answer to that question.

我怀疑在那里工作的人，甚至是领导者，能否给你这个问题一个连贯的答案。

I just heavily doubt it.

我只是严重怀疑这一点。

And you could fill in the blank for any range of…

您可以填写任何范围的空白...

Department of Commerce, and we could just go straight down the list of each of these other ones, what is the mission of this organization?

商务部，我们可以直接列出其他每个机构的清单，这个组织的使命是什么？

33:16 You could even say for the US military, what’s the purpose of the US military, the Department of Defense?

甚至你可以说对于美军来说，美军、国防部的目的是什么？

I can give you one.

我可以给你一个。

I think it is to win wars, and more importantly, through its strength, to avoid wars, that’s it.

我觉得是为了赢得战争，更重要的是通过它的实力，避免战争，仅此而已。

33:27 Well, okay, if that’s the mission, then you know, okay, it’s not tinkering around and messing around in some foreign conflict where we feel like it sometimes, and other ones where we don’t.

好吧，好吧，如果这就是使命，那么你知道，好吧，这不是在某些我们有时喜欢的外国冲突中胡闹，有时我们不喜欢的外国冲突。

And who decides that, I don’t really know, but whoever the people are that decide that, we follow those orders.

谁决定的，我真的不知道，但无论决定的人是谁，我们都会遵循这些命令。

33:40 No, our mission is to protect the United States of America, to win wars, and to avoid wars, boom, those three things.

不，我们的使命是保护美利坚合众国，赢得战争，避免战争、繁荣，这三件事。

What does protecting the United States of America mean?

保护美利坚合众国意味着什么？

Number one, the homeland of the United States of America and the people who reside there.

第一，美利坚合众国的祖国和居住在那里的人民。

Good, that’s a clear mission.

很好，这是一个明确的使命。

33:55 The Department of Health and Human Services, maybe, could be a reasonable mission to say that I want to make America the healthiest country on Planet Earth, and we will develop the metrics and meet those metrics, and that’s the goal of the Department of HHS, to set policies, or at least to implement policies that best achieve that goal.

也许，卫生与公众服务部的使命是合理的：我想让美国成为地球上最健康的国家，我们将制定指标并达到这些指标，这就是卫生与公众服务部的目标，即制定政策，或者至少实施最能实现该目标的政策。

34:12 And maybe that’s the right statement of mission, maybe it’s not, but one of the things that happens is, when you’re governed by the committee class, it dilutes the sense of mission out of any organization, whether it’s a company or government agency or bureaucracy.

也许这是正确的使命宣言，也许不是，但发生的事情之一是，当你受到委员会阶级的统治时，它会淡化任何组织的使命感，无论是公司、政府机构还是官僚机构。

34:24 And once you’ve done that, then you lose the ability to track the best and the brightest, because in order for somebody to achieve the maximum of their potential, they have to know what it’s towards.

一旦你做到了这一点，你就失去了追踪最优秀和最聪明的人的能力，因为为了让某人发挥最大的潜力，他们必须知道它的目标是什么。

There has to be a mission in the first place.

首先必须有一个使命。

34:34 Then you’re not getting the best and brightest, you get more from the committee class, and that becomes a self-perpetuating downward spiral, and that is what the blob of the federal bureaucracy really looks like today.

那么你就得不到最优秀和最聪明的人才，你会从委员会班级中得到更多，这就变成了自我延续的螺旋式下降，这就是联邦官僚机构今天的真正样子。

Yeah, you said something really profound.

是的，你说的很深刻。

34:45 At the individual scale of the individual contributor, doer, creator, what happens is, you have a certain capacity to do awesome shit, and then there’s barriers that come up.

在个人贡献者、实干者、创造者的个人规模上，会发生的情况是，你有一定的能力去做一些很棒的事情，然后就会出现障碍。

We have to wait a little bit.

我们必须稍等一下。

This happens, there’s friction always.

发生这种情况时，总会有摩擦。

When humans together are working on something, there’s friction.

当人们一起做某件事时，就会出现摩擦。

And so, the goal of a great company is to minimize that friction, minimize the number of barriers.

因此，一家伟大公司的目标就是尽量减少这种摩擦，尽量减少障碍的数量。

And what happens is, the managerial class, the incentive is for it to create barriers.

所发生的情况是，管理阶层的动机是制造障碍。

It’s what it does.

这就是它的作用。

35:15 That’s just by the nature of a bureaucracy, it creates sand in the gears to slow down whatever the other process was.

这就是官僚机构的本质，它会在齿轮中产生沙子，以减慢其他过程的速度。

Is there some room for that somewhere in certain contexts?

在某些情况下，是否有这样的空间？

Sure.

当然。

35:25 It’s like a defensive mechanism that’s designed to reduce dynamism.

这就像一种旨在减少活力的防御机制。

But I think when that becomes cancerous in its scope, it then actually kills the host itself, whether that’s a school, whether that’s a company, whether that’s a government.

但我认为，当它在其范围内变成癌性时，它实际上会杀死宿主本身，无论是学校、公司还是政府。

35:43 And so, the way I think about it, Lex, is, there’s sort of a balance of distributed power.

所以，莱克斯，我的想法是，分布式权力之间存在某种平衡。

And I don’t mean power in the Foucault sense of social power, but I mean just power in the sense of the ability to affect relevant change in any organization between what you could call the founder class, the creator class, the everyday citizen, the stakeholder class, and then the managerial class.

我指的不是福柯意义上的社会权力，而是指影响任何组织中的创始人阶级、创造者阶级、普通公民、利益相关者阶级和管理阶层之间相关变革的能力。

36:08 And there’s a role for all three of them.

他们三个人都有自己的角色。

You could have the constituents of an organization, say in a constitutional republic, that’s the citizen, you could have the equivalent of the creator class, the people who create things in that polity, and then you have the bureaucratic class that’s designed to administer and serve as a liaison between the two.

你可以有一个组织的组成部分，比如说在宪政共和国中，即公民，你可以有相当于创造者阶级的人，即在该政体中创造事物的人，然后你就有旨在管理和充当两者之间联络人的官僚阶级。

36:25 I’m not denying that there’s some role somewhere for people who are in that managerial class, but right now, in this moment in American history, and I think it’s been more or less true for the last century, but it’s grown, starting with Woodrow Wilson’s advent of the Modern Administrative State, metastasizing through FDR’s New Deal and what was required to administer it, blown over and metastasizing further through LBJ’s Great Society, and everything that’s happened since, even aided and abetted by Republican presidents along the way like Richard Nixon, has created a United States of America where that committee class, both in and outside the government and our culture, wields far too much influence and power relative to the everyday citizen stakeholder and to the creators, who are, in many ways, constrained, hamstrung, shackled in straitjacket from achieving the maximum of their own potential contributions.

我并不否认这个管理阶层的人在某个地方有一些作用，但现在，在美国历史上的这个时刻，我认为这在上个世纪或多或少都是正确的，但它已经成长，从伍德罗·威尔逊现代行政国家的出现开始，通过罗斯福新政和管理它所需的东西转移，通过林登·约翰逊的伟大社会进一步转移和进一步转移，以及此后发生的一切，甚至有所帮助在理查德·尼克松等共和党总统的怂恿下，创建了一个美利坚合众国，在这个美利坚合众国中，委员会阶层，无论是在政府内部还是外部以及我们的文化中，相对于普通公民利益相关者和创造者来说，拥有太多的影响力和权力，而创造者在很多方面都受到限制、束缚和束缚，无法实现自己最大的潜在贡献。

37:20 And I certainly feel that myself.

我自己也确实有这样的感觉。

I probably identify as being a member of that creator class most closely.

我可能认为自己是最接近的创造者阶层的一员。

It’s just what I’ve done, I create things.

这就是我所做的，我创造的东西。

And I think we live in an environment in the United States of America where we’re still probably the best country on earth where that creator has that shot, so that’s the positive side of it, but one where we are far more constrictive to the creator class than we have been when we’ve been at our best, and that’s what I want to see change.

我认为我们生活在美利坚合众国的环境中，我们可能仍然是地球上最好的国家，创作者有这样的机会，所以这是积极的一面，但我们对创作者阶层的限制比我们最好的时候要严格得多，这就是我希望看到的改变。

Can you steelman the perspective of somebody that looks at a particular department, Department of Education, and are saying that the amount of pain that will be caused by closing it and firing 75% of people will be too much?

你能从一个人的角度来看待这个部门，即教育部，并说关闭该部门并解雇 75% 的人会造成太大的痛苦吗？

Yeah.

是的。

38:02 So, I go back to this question of mission, right?

那么，我回到使命这个问题，对吧？

A lot of people who make arguments for the Department of Education aren’t aware why the Department of Education was created in the first place, actually.

事实上，许多为教育部辩护的人并不知道为什么要创建教育部。

So that might be a useful place to start, is that this thing was created, it had a purpose, presumably.

所以这可能是一个有用的起点，因为这个东西是被创造出来的，它大概是有一个目的的。

What was that purpose?

目的是什么？

38:22 It might be at least a relevant question to ask before we decided what are we doing with it or not, what was the purpose of this thing that we created?

在我们决定用它做什么之前，至少要问一个相关的问题：我们创建这个东西的目的是什么？

To me, it seems to be a highly relevant question.

对我来说，这似乎是一个高度相关的问题。

38:32 Yet, in this discussion about government reform, it’s interesting how eager people are to skip over that question and just to talk about, “Okay, but we’ve got the status quo, and it’s just going to be disruptive,” versus asking the question of, okay, this institution was created, it had an original purpose, is that purpose still relevant?

然而，在关于政府改革的讨论中，有趣的是，人们多么渴望跳过这个问题，只是谈论“好吧，但我们已经维持现状，这只会造成破坏”，而不是问这样的问题：好吧，这个机构被创建了，它有一个最初的目的，这个目的仍然相关吗？

Is this organization at all fulfilling that purpose today?

今天这个组织是否实现了这一目标？

38:51 To me, those are some relevant questions to ask.

对我来说，这些是一些需要问的相关问题。

So, let’s talk about that for the Department of Education.

那么，我们来谈谈教育部的事情。

Its purpose was relevant at that time, which was to make sure that localities, and particularly states, were not siphoning taxpayer dollars away from predominantly Black school districts to predominantly White ones.

其目的在当时是相关的，即确保地方，特别是州，不会将纳税人的钱从以黑人为主的学区抽走到以白人为主的学区。

39:13 And that was not a theoretical concern at the time.

这在当时并不是一个理论上的问题。

It was happening, or there was at least some evidence that that was happening in certain states in the South.

这种情况正在发生，或者至少有一些证据表明这种情况正在南方的某些州发生。

And so, you may say you don’t like the federal solution, you may say you like the federal solution, but like it or not, that was the original purpose of the US Department of Education, to make sure that, from a federal perspective, that states were not systematically disadvantaging Black school districts over predominantly White ones.

因此，你可能会说你不喜欢联邦解决方案，你可能会说你喜欢联邦解决方案，但无论你喜欢与否，这就是美国教育部的最初目的，以确保从联邦的角度来看，各州不会系统性地使黑人学区相对于白人学区处于不利地位。

39:36 However noble and relevant that purpose may have been six decades ago, it’s not a relevant purpose today.

无论这个目的在六年前是多么崇高和相关，但在今天却不再是一个相关的目的。

There’s no evidence today of states intentionally mapping out which are the Black versus White school districts and siphoning money in one direction versus another.

今天没有证据表明各州有意划定黑人学区和白人学区，并向一个方向和另一个方向吸纳资金。

39:51 To the contrary, one of the things we’ve learned is that the school districts in the inner city, many of which are predominantly Black, actually spend more money per student than other school districts for a worse result, as measured by test scores and other performance, on a per-student basis, suggesting that there are other factors than the dollar expenditures per school determining student success, and actually suggesting that even the over-funding of some of those already poorly run schools rewards them for their actual bureaucratic failures.

相反，我们了解到的一件事是，内城区的学区（其中许多以黑人为主）实际上比其他学区在每个学生上花费更多的钱，而从每个学生的考试成绩和其他表现来衡量，结果却更差，这表明除了每所学校的美元支出之外还有其他因素决定学生的成功，并且实际上表明，即使是一些管理不佳的学校的过度资助也会奖励他们实际的官僚主义失败。

40:23 So, against that backdrop, the Department of Education has, instead, extrapolated that original purpose of what was a racial equality purpose, to, instead, implement a different vision of racial equity through the ideologies that they demand in the content of the curriculum that these public schools actually teach.

因此，在这种背景下，教育部反而推断出种族平等的最初目的，通过他们在这些公立学校实际教授的课程内容中所要求的意识形态来实现不同的种族平等愿景。

40:39 So, Department of Education funding, so federal funding, accounts for about, I’m giving you round numbers here, but around 10% of the funding of most public schools across the country.

所以，教育部的资金，也就是联邦资金，大约占全国大多数公立学校资金的 10%，我在这里给你的是整数。

But that comes with strings attached.

但这是有附加条件的。

40:52 So, in today’s Department of Education, this didn’t happen back in 1970, but it’s happening today, ironically it’s funny how these things change with the bureaucracies that fail, they blow oak smoke to cover up for their own failures, what happens with today’s Department of Education?

所以，在今天的教育部，这在 1970 年并没有发生，但今天却发生了，讽刺的是，有趣的是，这些事情如何随着官僚机构的失败而改变，他们用橡木烟来掩盖自己的失败，今天的教育部会发生什么？

41:05 They effectively say you don’t get that funding unless you adopt certain goals deemed at achieving racial or gender equity goals.

他们实际上是说，除非你采取某些被视为实现种族或性别平等目标的目标，否则你无法获得这笔资金。

And in fact, they also intervene in the curriculum where there’s evidence of schools in the Midwest or in the Great Plains that have been denied funding because Department of Education funding, so long as they have certain subjects like Archery…

事实上，他们还干预了课程，有证据表明中西部或大平原的学校因为教育部的资助而被拒绝资助，只要他们有像射箭这样的某些科目......

41:25 There was one instance of a school that had archery in its curriculum.

有一所学校的课程中有射箭项目。

I find that to be pretty interesting, actually.

事实上，我觉得这很有趣。

I think you have different kinds of physical education.

我认为你们有不同种类的体育课。

This is one that combines mental focus with physical aptitude, but hey, maybe I’m biased, it doesn’t matter.

这是一种将精神集中与身体能力相结合的方法，但是嘿，也许我有偏见，但这并不重要。

41:40 Whether you like archery or not, I don’t think it’s the federal government’s job to withhold funding from a school because they include something in their curriculum that the federal government deems inappropriate where that locality found that to be a relevant locus of education.

无论你是否喜欢射箭，我不认为联邦政府有责任扣留学校的资金，因为他们的课程中包含了联邦政府认为不合适的内容，而当地认为这是相关的教育场所。

41:53 So, what you see then is an abandonment of the original purpose.

所以，你看到的就是对最初目的的放弃。

That’s long past.

那已经是很久以前的事了。

You don’t have this problem that the Department of Education was originally formed to solve, of siphoning money from Black school districts to White school districts and laundering that, effectively, in public funds, that doesn’t exist anymore.

教育部最初成立是为了解决这个问题，将资金从黑人学区转移到白人学区，并在公共资金中有效地进行洗钱，但这种问题已经不存在了。

42:08 So, they find new purposes instead, creating a lot more damage along the way.

因此，他们找到了新的目的，并在此过程中造成了更多的损害。

So, you asked me to steelman, and can I say something constructive rather than just pounding down on the other side?

那么，你问我钢铁侠，我可以说一些建设性的话，而不是只是猛烈抨击对方吗？

One way to think about this is, for a lot of these agencies, were many of them formed with a positive intention at the outset?

思考这个问题的一种方法是，对于许多这样的机构来说，其中许多机构在一开始就怀有积极的意图吗？

Yes.

是的。

Whether that positive intention existed, I’m still a skeptic of creating bureaucracies, but if you’re going to create one, at least make it, what shall we call it, a taskforce.

无论这种积极意图是否存在，我仍然对创建官僚机构持怀疑态度，但如果你要创建一个，至少要创建一个，我们可以称之为特别工作组。

Make it a taskforce.

使其成为一个工作组。

42:45 A taskforce versus an agency means, after it’s done, you celebrate, you’ve done your work, pat yourself on the back, and then move on, rather than creating a standing bureaucracy which actually finds things to do after it has already solved or addressed the first reason it was born in the first place.

工作组与机构的区别意味着，工作完成后，你庆祝，你已经完成了工作，拍拍自己的背，然后继续前进，而不是建立一个常设的官僚机构，在它已经解决或解决了它诞生的第一个原因之后，实际上找到了要做的事情。

43:02 And I think we don’t have enough of that in our culture.

我认为我们的文化中还没有足够的这些。

Even if you have a company that’s generated tons of cash flow, and it’s solved a problem, let’s say it’s a biopharmaceutical company that developed a cure to some disease, and the only thing people knew at that company was how to develop a cure to that disease, and they generated a boatload of cash from doing it, at a certain point you could just give it to your shareholders and close up shop.

即使你有一家公司产生了大量的现金流，并且解决了一个问题，假设这是一家生物制药公司，开发了某种疾病的治疗方法，而该公司的人们唯一知道的是如何开发这种疾病的治疗方法，并且他们通过这样做产生了大量现金，在某个时候，你可以将其交给股东并关闭商店。

43:22 And that’s actually a beautiful thing to do.

这实际上是一件很美好的事情。

You don’t see that happen enough in the American consciousness, in the American culture of, when an institution has achieved its purpose, celebrate it, and then move on.

在美国人的意识和美国文化中，当一个机构实现其目标时，庆祝它，然后继续前进，你看不到这种情况的发生。

And I think that that culture in our government would result in a vastly restrained scope of government, rather than, today it’s a one-way ratchet.

我认为我们政府的这种文化将导致政府范围受到极大限制，而不是像今天这样是一种单向棘轮。

43:39 Once you cause it to come into existence, you cause new things to come into existence, but the old one that came into existence continues to persist and exist as well, and that’s where you get this metastasis over the last century.

一旦你让它存在，你就导致新的事物存在，但已经存在的旧事物也继续存在并存在，这就是上个世纪发生这种转移的地方。

So, what kind of things do you think government should do that the private sector, the forces of capitalism would create drastic inequalities or create the kind of pain we don’t want to have in government?

那么，您认为政府应该做哪些事情，以免私营部门、资本主义力量造成严重的不平等或造成我们不希望在政府中遭受的痛苦？

So, the question is, what should government do that the private sector cannot?

那么，问题是，政府应该做什么而私营部门不能做什么？

44:01 I’ll give you one.

我给你一张。

Protect our border.

保护我们的边境。

Capitalism, it’s never going to be the job of capitalists, or never going to be the capability or inclination of capitalists to preserve a national border.

资本主义，永远不会成为资本家的工作，也永远不会成为资本家维护国界的能力或倾向。

44:15 And I think a nation, it’s literally, I think, one of the chapters of this book, “A nation without borders is not a nation.” It’s almost a tautology, an open border is not a border.

我认为一个国家，我认为，这本书的章节之一，“一个没有边界的国家不是一个国家”。这几乎是同义反复，开放边界不是边界。

Capitalism is not going to solve that.

资本主义无法解决这个问题。

What’s going to solve that is a nation.

解决这个问题的是一个国家。

44:27 Part of the job of the federal government is to protect the homeland of its nation, in this case, the United States of America.

联邦政府的部分工作是保护其国家的祖国，在本例中是美利坚合众国。

That’s an example of a proper function of the federal government, to provide physical security to its citizens.

这是联邦政府为公民提供人身安全的适当职能的一个例子。

44:40 Another proper role of that federal government is to look after, or in this case it could be state government, to make sure that private parties cannot externalize their costs onto somebody else without their consent.

联邦政府的另一个适当角色是照顾，或者在这种情况下可以是州政府，以确保私人团体在未经他们同意的情况下不能将其成本外部化到其他人身上。

It’s a fancy way economists would use to describe it.

这是经济学家用来描述它的一种奇特方式。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

44:59 It means if you go dump your chemicals in somebody else’s river, then you’re liable for that.

这意味着如果您将化学物质倾倒在别人的河流中，那么您就要承担责任。

It’s not that, okay, I’m a capitalist and so I want to create things, and I’m going to do hell or high water, whether or not that harms people around me.

不是这样的，好吧，我是一个资本家，所以我想创造一些东西，我会去做地狱或高潮，无论这是否会伤害我周围的人。

45:10 The job of a proper government is to make sure that you protect the rights of those who may be harmed by those who are pursuing their own rights through a system of capitalism.

一个适当的政府的职责是确保保护那些可能受到那些​​通过资本主义制度追求自己权利的人伤害的人的权利。

45:18 In seeking prosperity, you’re free to do it, but if you’re hurting somebody, else without their consent, in the process, the government is there to enforce what is really just a different form of enforcing a private property right.

在寻求繁荣的过程中，你可以自由地这样做，但如果你在未经他们同意的情况下伤害了某人，那么政府就会在那里强制执行实际上只是执行私有财产权的另一种形式。

45:31 So, I would say that those are two central functions of government, is to preserve national boundaries in the national security of a homeland, and number two is to protect and preserve private property rights and the enforcement of those private property rights.

因此，我想说，这是政府的两项核心职能，一是维护祖国安全的国界，二是保护和维护私有财产权以及这些私有财产权的执行。

And I think, at that point, you’ve described about 80 to 90% of the proper role of a government.

我认为，此时您已经描述了大约 80% 到 90% 的政府适当角色。

What about infrastructure?

基础设施怎么样？

Look, I think that most infrastructure can be dealt with through the private sector.

我认为大多数基础设施都可以通过私营部门来处理。

45:52 You can get into specifics.

具体的你可以去了解一下。

You could have infrastructure that’s specific to national security.

您可以拥有特定于国家安全的基础设施。

No, I do think that military industrial base is essential to provide national security.

不，我确实认为军事工业基础对于保障国家安全至关重要。

That’s a form of infrastructure.

这是基础设施的一种形式。

46:05 I don’t think you could rely exclusively on the private sector to provide the optimal level of that protection to a nation.

我认为不能完全依赖私营部门为国家提供最佳水平的保护。

But interstate highways, I think you could think about whether or not that’s a common good that everybody benefits from but nobody had the incentive to create.

但是州际高速公路，我认为你可以考虑这是否是每个人都受益但没有人有动力去创造的共同利益。

I think you could make an argument for the existence of interstate highways.

我认为你可以为州际高速公路的存在提出论据。

46:23 I think you could also make powerful arguments for the fact that, actually, you could have enough private sector co-ops that could cause that to come into existence as well.

我认为你也可以提出强有力的论据来证明这样一个事实：实际上，你可以拥有足够多的私营部门合作社，从而也可以实现这一点。

But I’m not dogmatic about this.

但我对此并不教条。

46:35 But broadly speaking, 80 to 90% of the goal of the federal government, I’m not going to say 100, 80 to 90% of the goal of the existence of a federal government, of government, period, should be to protect national boundaries and provide security for the people who live there, and to protect the private property rights of the people who reside there.

但从广义上讲，联邦政府80％到90％的目标，我不会说100％，80％到90％的联邦政府存在的目标，时期，应该是保护国界并为居住在那里的人们提供安全，并保护居住在那里的人们的私有财产权。

46:55 If we restore that, I think we’re well on our way to a revival of what our founding fathers envisioned, and I think many of them would give you the same answer that I just did.

如果我们恢复这一点，我认为我们正在复兴我们的开国元勋的设想，而且我认为他们中的许多人会给你和我刚才一样的答案。

So, if we get government out of education, would you be also for reducing this as a government in the states for something like education?

那么，如果我们让政府摆脱教育，作为各州政府，您是否也会减少教育等方面的支出？

I think if it goes closer to municipalities and the states, I’m fine with that being a locus for people determining as…

我认为，如果它更接近市政府和州政府，我很乐意将其作为人们确定的所在地……

47:13 For example, let’s just say school districts are taxed at the local level.

例如，假设学区在地方层面征税。

47:23 For that to be a matter for municipalities and townships to actually decide, democratically, how they actually want that governed, whether it’s balance between a public school district versus making that same money available to families in the form of vouchers or other forms of ability to educational savings accounts, or whichever mechanism it is, to opt out of that, if that’s done locally, I’ll have views on that that tend to go further in the direction of true educational choice and diversity of choice.

对于这个问题，市政当局和乡镇要实际民主地决定他们实际上希望如何管理，无论是公立学区与以优惠券或其他形式的教育储蓄账户能力的形式向家庭提供同样的资金之间的平衡，还是无论是哪种机制，选择退出，如果在当地完成，我将对此发表看法，这往往会朝着真正的教育选择和选择多样性的方向走得更远。

47:51 The implementation of charter schools, the granting of state charters, or even lowering the barriers to granting one, I favor those kinds of policies.

实施特许学校，授予州特许权，甚至降低授予特许学校的门槛，我赞成这类政策。

But if we’ve gotten the federal government out of it, that’s achieved 75% of what I think we need to achieve, that I’m focused on solving other problems, and leave that to the states and municipalities to cover from there.

但如果我们让联邦政府摆脱困境，那就已经实现了我认为我们需要实现的目标的 75%，我将专注于解决其他问题，并将其留给州和市政府来解决。

So, given this conversation, what do you think of Elon’s proposal of the Department of Government Efficiency in the Trump Administration, or really, any administration?

那么，考虑到这次谈话，您如何看待埃隆在特朗普政府或任何政府中设立政府效率部的提议？

Well, I’m, of course, biased because Elon and I had discussed that for the better part of the last year and a half, which I think it’s a great idea.

好吧，我当然有偏见，因为埃隆和我在过去一年半的大部分时间里都在讨论这个问题，我认为这是一个好主意。

48:21 It’s something that’s very consistent with the core premise of my presidential candidacy.

这与我竞选总统的核心前提非常一致。

48:33 I got to know him, as I was running for US president, in a couple of events that he came to, and then we built a friendship after that.

当我竞选美国总统时，我在他参加的几次活动中认识了他，此后我们建立了友谊。

So, obviously, I think it’s a great idea.

所以，显然，我认为这是一个好主意。

Who do you think is more hardcore on the cutting, you or Elon?

你认为谁在剪辑方面更硬核，你还是埃隆？

Well, I think Elon’s pretty hardcore.

嗯，我认为埃隆非常铁杆。

48:46 Because I said 75% of the federal bureaucrats, and while I was running for president, he said, “You need to put, ‘At least 75%’.” So I agree with him.

因为我说的是 75% 的联邦官僚，而当我竞选总统时，他说，“你需要加上‘至少 75%’。”所以我同意他的观点。

48:58 I think it would be a fun competition to see who ends up more hardcore.

我认为这将是一场有趣的比赛，看看谁最终更硬核。

I don’t think there’s someone out there who’s going to be more hardcore than he or I would be.

我认为没有人会比他或我更顽固。

And the reason is, I think we share in common a willingness to take the risk and see what happens.

原因是，我认为我们都有共同的意愿，愿意冒险，看看会发生什么。

49:17 The sun will still rise in the east and set in the west.

太阳仍会从东边升起，从西边落下。

That much I guarantee you.

我就这么多向你保证。

Is there are going to be some broken glass and some damage?

是否会有一些玻璃碎裂和损坏？

Yes, there is.

是的，有。

There’s no way around that.

没有办法解决这个问题。

But once you’re willing to take that risk, then it doesn’t become so scary anymore.

但一旦你愿意承担这个风险，那么它就不再那么可怕了。

And here’s the thing, Lex, so it’s easy to say this, let’s talk about where the rubber hits the road here.

事情是这样的，莱克斯，所以说起来很容易，让我们来谈谈这里的橡胶在哪里。

Even in a second Trump term this would be the discussion.

即使在特朗普的第二个任期内，这也会成为讨论的焦点。

President Trump and I have had this conversation, but I think we would continue to have this conversation, is where does it rank on our prioritization list, because there’s always going to be a trade-off.

特朗普总统和我进行了这样的对话，但我认为我们会继续进行这样的对话，即它在我们的优先事项列表中的排名，因为总会有一个权衡。

49:50 If you have a different policy objective that you want to achieve, a good policy objective, whatever that is, you could talk about immigration policy, you could talk about economic policy, there are other policy objectives, if you’re going to trade off a little bit, in the short-run, the effectiveness of your ability to carry out that policy goal, if you’re also committed to actually thinning out the federal government by 75%…

如果你有一个想要实现的不同的政策目标，一个好的政策目标，无论是什么，你可以谈论移民政策，你可以谈论经济政策，还有其他政策目标，如果你打算在短期内稍微权衡你执行该政策目标的能力的有效性，如果你还致力于实际上将联邦政府精简75%......

50:15 Because there’s just going to be some clunkiness there’s just going to be frictional costs for that level of cut.

因为会出现一些笨拙的情况，所以这种程度的削减只会产生摩擦成本。

So the question is, where does that rank on your prioritization list?

所以问题是，它在您的优先列表中排名第几？

50:23 To pull that off, to pull off a 75% reduction in the size and scale of the federal government, the regulatory state, and the headcount, I think that only happens if that’s your top priority.

为了实现这一目标，将联邦政府、监管国家和人员数量的规模和规模削减 75%，我认为只有当这是你的首要任务时才会发生。

You could do it at a smaller scale, but at that scale, it only happens if that’s your top priority.

你可以在较小的规模上做到这一点，但在这种规模下，只有当这是你的首要任务时才会发生。

50:39 Because then, as President, you’re in a position to say, “I know in the super short run, that might even make it a little bit harder for me to do this other thing that I want to do, and use the regulatory state to do it, but I’m gonna pass on that.

因为那时，作为总统，你可以说：“我知道从超短期来看，这甚至可能会让我更难做我想做的另一件事，并利用监管国家来做这件事，但我会放弃这一点。

50:52 I’m gonna pass that up, I’m gonna bear that hardship and inconvenience because I know this other goal is more important on the scale of decades and centuries for the country.” So it’s a question of prioritization.

我会放弃这个目标，我会承受这种困难和不便，因为我知道另一个目标对于这个国家几十年和几个世纪的规模来说更为重要。”所以这是一个优先顺序的问题。

And certainly, my own view is that, now is the moment where that needs to be a top priority for saving this country.

当然，我自己的观点是，现在是拯救这个国家的首要任务的时刻。

51:12 And if there’s one thing about my campaign, if I was to do it again, I would be even clearer about…

如果我的竞选活动有什么意义的话，如果我再做一次，我会更清楚……

Actually, I talked about a lot of things in the campaign, and we can cover a lot of that too.

其实我在竞选中讲了很多事情，我们也可以讲很多。

But if there’s one thing that I care about more than anything else, it’s dismantling that bureaucracy.

但如果说有一件事是我最关心的，那就是废除官僚机构。

51:27 And moreover, it’s an assault and a crusade on the nanny state itself.

而且，这是对保姆国家本身的攻击和讨伐。

And that nanny state presents itself in several forms.

这种保姆状态有多种表现形式。

There’s the entitlement state, there’s the welfare state, presents itself in the form of the regulatory state, that’s what we’re talking about, and then there’s the foreign nanny state where, effectively, we are subsidizing other countries that aren’t paying their fair share of protection or other resources we provide them.

有权利国家，有福利国家，以监管国家的形式出现，这就是我们所讨论的，然后是外国保姆国家，我们实际上正在补贴其他没有支付我们提供的公平份额的保护或其他资源的国家。

51:52 If I was to summarize my ideology in a nutshell, it is to terminate the nanny state in the United States of America in all of its forms; the entitlement state, the regulatory state, and the foreign policy nanny state.

如果我要概括我的意识形态的话，那就是终止美利坚合众国一切形式的保姆国家；权利国家、监管​​国家和外交政策保姆国家。

Once we’ve done that, we’ve revived the Republic that I think would make George Washington proud.

一旦我们做到了这一点，我们就复兴了共和国，我认为这会让乔治·华盛顿感到自豪。

So, you mentioned Department of Education, but there’s also the Department of Defense.

所以，你提到了教育部，但还有国防部。

Yes.

是的。

And there’s a very large number of very powerful people that have gotten used to and a budget that’s increasing, and the number of wars and military conflicts that’s increasing.

大量有权势的人已经习惯了，预算在增加，战争和军事冲突的数量也在增加。

52:16 So, if we could just talk about that.

那么，如果我们能谈谈这个问题就好了。

Sure.

当然。

So this is the number one priority.

所以这是第一要务。

52:32 It’s like there’s difficulty levels here.

好像这里有难度级别。

The DOD would be, probably, the hardest, so let’s take that on.

国防部可能是最难的，所以让我们来解决这个问题。

What’s your view on the Military Industrial Complex, Department of Defense, and wars in general?

您对军工联合体、国防部和一般战争有何看法？

So, I think the nanny state, I’m against it overall, I’m against the foreign policy nanny state as well.

所以，我认为保姆国家，我总体上反对它，我也反对外交政策保姆国家。

52:50 Let me just start from that as the starting-off point, and then I’ll tell you about my views on the DOD and our Defense.

让我以此为出发点，然后我会告诉你我对国防部和我们的国防部的看法。

First of all, think that…

首先，认为……

And I think that it was easy for many people from the neocon school of thought to caricature my views with the media at their side, but actually, my own view is, if it’s in the interest of the United States of America to provide certain levels of protection to US allies, we can do that as long as those allies actually pay for it.

我认为，许多新保守主义学派的人很容易在媒体上讽刺我的观点，但实际上，我自己的观点是，如果为美国盟友提供一定程度的保护符合美国的利益，只要这些盟友真正为此付费，我们就可以这样做。

53:22 And I think it’s important for two reasons.

我认为这很重要，原因有两个。

The less important reason, it’s still an important reason, the less important reason is, it’s still money for us.

不太重要的原因，它仍然是一个重要的原因，不太重要的原因，它仍然是我们的钱。

It’s not like we’re swimming in a cash surplus right now.

我们现在并没有现金盈余。

We’ve got a $34 trillion national debt, and growing, and I think pretty soon the interest payments are going to be the largest line item in our own federal budget.

我们有 34 万亿美元的国债，而且还在不断增长，我认为利息支付很快将成为我们联邦预算中最大的项目。

53:39 So, it’s not like we have money willy-nilly to just hand over for free.

所以，我们也不是有钱就可以随意免费赠送的。

That’s the less important reason, though.

不过，这是不太重要的原因。

The more important reason is that it makes sure that our allies have actual skin in the game to not have skewed incentives to actually enter conflicts where they’re not actually bearing the full cost of those conflicts.

更重要的原因是，它确保我们的盟友真正参与其中，不会有扭曲的动机去实际卷入冲突，而他们实际上并没有承担这些冲突的全部成本。

So, take NATO for example, most NATO countries, literally a majority of NATO countries today do not pay or contribute 2% of their GDP to their own National Defense, which is supposedly a requirement to be in NATO.

因此，以北约为例，大多数北约国家，实际上是今天的大多数北约国家，不会将其 GDP 的 2% 支付或贡献给本国国防，而这应该是加入北约的要求。

So the majority of NATO countries are failing to meet their basic commitment to be in NATO in the first place.

因此，大多数北约国家一开始就未能履行其加入北约的基本承诺。

54:24 Germany particularly is, I think, arbitraging the hell out of the United States of America.

我认为，德国尤其在从美国套利。

And I don’t think that…

我不认为……

I’m not going to be some shrill voice here saying, “So therefore, we should not be supporting any allies or providing security blankets.” No, I’m not going in that direction.

我不会在这里尖锐地说：“因此，我们不应该支持任何盟友或提供安全毯。”不，我不会朝那个方向走。

What I would say is, you’ve got to pay for it.

我想说的是，你必须为此付出代价。

54:43 Pay for your fair share, A, because we’re not swimming in excess money ourselves, but B, is, it tells us that you actually have skin in the game for your own Defense, which actually then makes nations far more prudent in the risks that they take, whether or not they’re in a war, versus if somebody else is paying for it and somebody else is providing our security guarantee, yeah, I might as well take the gamble and see where I end up at the end of a war, versus the restraint that that imposes on the decision-making of those allies.

支付你的公平份额，A，因为我们自己并没有在多余的钱中游泳，但是B，它告诉我们，你实际上在为自己的国防而参与游戏，这实际上使各国在他们所承担的风险方面更加谨慎，无论他们是否处于战争之中，而不是如果其他人为此付出代价并且其他人为我们提供安全保证，是的，我不妨赌一把，看看战争结束时我会得到什么，而不是强加给我们的限制这些盟友的决策。

55:09 So, now, let’s bring this home to the Department of Defense.

所以，现在，让我们把这个带回国防部。

I think the top goal of the US Defense Policy establishment should be to provide for the national defense of the United States of America.

我认为美国国防政策制定的首要目标应该是保障美利坚合众国的国防。

And the irony is, that’s what we’re actually doing most poorly.

讽刺的是，这正是我们实际上做得最差的地方。

55:27 Other than the Coast Guard, we’re not really using the US Military to prevent crossings at our own southern border and crossings at our other borders.

除了海岸警卫队之外，我们并没有真正利用美国军队来阻止我们南部边境的过境和我们其他边境的过境。

In fact, the United States of America, our homeland, I believe is less secure today than it has been in a very long time.

事实上，我认为，我们的祖国美利坚合众国今天比很长一段时间以来更不安全。

55:41 Vulnerable to threats from hypersonic missiles where China and Russia…

容易受到高超音速导弹的威胁，中国和俄罗斯……

Russia certainly has capabilities in excess of that of the United States, missiles.

俄罗斯无疑拥有超过美国的导弹能力。

Hypersonic means faster than the speed of sound that could hit the United States, including those carrying nuclear warheads.

高超音速意味着比音速更快，可以击中美国，包括那些携带核弹头的。

55:55 We are more vulnerable to super EMP attacks, Electromagnetic Pulse attacks, that could, without exaggeration, some of this could be from other nations, some of this could even be from solar flares, cause significant mass casualty in the United States of America.

我们更容易受到超级电磁脉冲攻击，即电磁脉冲攻击，毫不夸张地说，其中一些可能来自其他国家，其中一些甚至可能来自太阳耀斑，在美国造成重大大规模伤亡。

56:10 If the electric grid’s gone, it’s not exaggeration to say, if that happened, planes would be falling out of the sky because our chips really depend on those, well, will be affected by those electromagnetic pulses.

如果电网消失了，不夸张地说，如果发生这种情况，飞机就会从天上掉下来，因为我们的芯片确实依赖于那些，嗯，会受到那些电磁脉冲的影响。

More vulnerable to cyber attacks.

更容易受到网络攻击。

I know people, okay, start yawning and say, “Okay, boring stuff, super EMP, cyber,” or whatever.

我知道人们，好吧，开始打哈欠并说，“好吧，无聊的东西，超级电磁脉冲，网络，”或者其他什么。

56:27 No.

不。

Actually, it is pretty relevant to whether or not you actually are facing the risk of not getting your insulin because your refrigerator doesn’t work anymore or your food can’t be stored or your car or your ability to fly on an airplane is impaired.

事实上，这与您是否真的面临因冰箱不再工作、食物无法储存、汽车或乘坐飞机的能力受损而无法获得胰岛素的风险非常相关。

So, I think that these are risks where our own National Defense spending has been wholly inadequate.

所以，我认为这些都是我们自己的国防开支完全不足的风险。

56:49 So, I’m not one of these people that says decrease versus increase National Defense spending.

所以，我不是那些主张减少或增加国防开支的人之一。

We’re not spending it in the right places.

我们没有把钱花在正确的地方。

The number one place we need to be spending it is actually protecting our National Defense, protecting our own physical homeland.

我们需要花的第一个地方实际上是保护我们的国防，保护我们自己的祖国。

57:01 And I think we actually need an increase in spending on protecting our own homeland.

我认为我们实际上需要增加保护我们自己家园的支出。

But that is different from the agenda of foreign interventionism and foreign nanny state-ism for its own sake, where we should expect more and demand more of our allies to provide for their own national defense and then provide the relevant security guarantees to allies where that actually advances the interest of the United States of America.

但这与外国干涉主义和外国保姆国家主义的议程不同，我们应该期望并要求我们的盟友提供更多的国防保障，然后向盟友提供相关的安全保障，这实际上会促进美利坚合众国的利益。

So, that’s what I believe.

所以，这就是我所相信的。

57:24 And I think this process has been corrupted by what Dwight Eisenhower famously in his farewell address called the Military Industrial Complex in the United States.

我认为这个过程已经被德怀特·艾森豪威尔在其告别演说中著名的“美国军事工业联合体”所破坏。

But I think it’s bigger than just the…

但我认为它不仅仅是......

I think it’s easy to tell the tales of the financial corruption.

我认为讲述金融腐败的故事很容易。

57:39 It’s kind of cultural corruption and conceit that just because certain number of people in that expert class have a belief, that their belief happens to be the right one because they can scare you with what the consequence would be if you don’t follow their advice.

这是一种文化腐败和自负，仅仅因为专家阶层中的某些人有一种信仰，他们的信仰恰好是正确的，因为如果你不听从他们的建议，他们会用后果来吓唬你。

57:54 And one of the beauties of the United States is, at least in principle, we have civilian control of the military.

美国的优点之一是，至少在原则上，我们拥有对军队的文官控制。

The person who we elect to be the US President is the one that actually is the true Commander in Chief.

我们选出的美国总统才是真正的三军统帅。

I have my doubts of whether it operates that way.

我怀疑它是否是这样运作的。

58:08 I think it’s quite obvious that Joe Biden is not a functioning Commander in Chief of the United States of America, yet, on paper, supposedly we’re still are supposed to call him that.

我认为很明显，乔·拜登不是一位在职的美利坚合众国三军统帅，但从理论上讲，我们仍然应该这样称呼他。

But at least in theory, we’re supposed to have civilian control of the US Military.

但至少在理论上，我们应该对美国军队进行文职控制。

58:21 And I think that one of the things that that leader needs to do is to ask the question of, again, the mission.

我认为领导者需要做的事情之一就是再次提出使命问题。

What’s the purpose of this US Military in the first place?

这支美军的目的首先是什么？

At the top of the list should be to protect the homeland and the people who actually live here, which we’re failing to do.

首要任务应该是保护家园和真正居住在这里的人们，但我们却没有做到。

So, that’s where I land on that question.

所以，这就是我提出这个问题的地方。

Wait, okay, there’s a lot of stuff to ask.

等等，好吧，有很多事情要问。

58:38 First of all, on Joe Biden, do you mean he’s functionally not in control of the US Military because of the age factor or because of the nature of the presidency?

首先，关于乔·拜登，你的意思是因为年龄因素还是因为总统职位的性质，他在职能上无法控制美国军队？

It’s a good question.

这是一个好问题。

58:48 I would say, in his case it’s particularly accentuated because it’s both.

我想说，就他而言，这一点尤为突出，因为两者兼而有之。

In his case, I don’t think anybody in America, anymore, believes that Joe Biden is the functioning President of the United States of America.

就他而言，我认为美国不再有人相信乔·拜登是美利坚合众国的现任总统。

How could he be?

他怎么会这样呢？

59:03 He wasn’t even sufficiently functioning to be the candidate after a debate that was held in June.

在六月份举行的一场辩论之后，他甚至没有足够的能力成为候选人。

There’s no way he’s going to be in a position to make the most important decisions on a daily and demanding basis to protect the leading nation in the world.

他不可能每天做出最重要的决定，以保护世界领先的国家。

59:15 Now, more generally, though, I think we have a deeper problem, that even when it’s not Joe Biden, in general, the people we elect to run the government haven’t really been the ones running the government, it’s been the unelected bureaucrats in the bureaucratic deep state underneath that’s really been making the decisions.

但现在，更广泛地说，我认为我们有一个更深层次的问题，即使不是乔·拜登，一般来说，我们选出的管理政府的人也不是真正管理政府的人，而是真正在做决定的官僚深层政府中未经选举的官僚。

59:33 I’ve done business in a number of places.

我在很多地方做过生意。

I’ve traveled to Japan.

我去过日本。

There’s an interesting corporate analogy.

有一个有趣的公司类比。

Sometimes, if you get outside of politics, people can, I find, listen, and pay attention a little bit more, because politics, it’s so fraught right now that if you start talking to somebody who disagrees with you about the politics of it, you’re just butting heads but not really making progress.

有时，如果你脱离政治，我发现人们可以更多地倾听和关注，因为政治现在是如此令人担忧，如果你开始与不同意你政治观点的人交谈，你们只是在互相争执，而不是真正取得进展。

59:53 So, let’s just make the same point, but go outside of politics for a second.

所以，让我们表达同样的观点，但先暂时脱离政治。

So, I was traveling Japan, I was having a late night dinner with a CEO of a Japanese pharmaceutical company.

我当时正在日本旅行，与一家日本制药公司的首席执行官共进深夜晚餐。

1:00:04 And it takes a while to really get him to open up, culturally speaking in Japan, a couple of nights of karaoke, and whatnot, maybe late night restaurant, whatever it is.

真正让他敞开心扉需要一段时间，从日本文化的角度来说，就是唱几个晚上的卡拉 OK，或者诸如此类的东西，也许是深夜餐厅，无论是什么。

Well, we built a good enough relationship where he was very candid with me.

嗯，我们建立了足够好的关系，他对我非常坦诚。

1:00:20 He said, “I’m the CEO of the company.

他说：“我是公司的首席执行官。

I could go and find the Head of a research unit and tell him, ‘Okay, this is a project we’re no longer working on as a company.

我可以去找一个研究部门的负责人并告诉他，‘好吧，这是我们公司不再从事的项目。

We don’t wanna spend money on it, we’re gonna spend money somewhere else.’ And he’ll look me in the eye and he’ll say, ‘Yes, sir, yes sir.’.

我们不想花钱，我们会把钱花在其他地方。”他会看着我的眼睛，说：“是的，先生，是的，先生。”

1:00:37 I’ll come back six months later and find that they’re spending exactly the same amount of money on those exact same projects.

六个月后我回来时会发现他们在完全相同的项目上花费了完全相同的金额。

And I’ll tell him, ‘No, we agreed.

我会告诉他，‘不，我们同意了。

I told you that you’re not gonna spend money on this project, and we have to stop now.

我告诉过你，你不会在这个项目上花钱，我们现在必须停止。

We should have stopped six months ago.’ Get a slap on the wrist for it.

我们六个月前就应该停止了。’为此受到惩罚。

1:00:51 He says, ‘Yes, sir, I’m sorry.

他说：‘是的，先生，我很抱歉。

Yes.

是的。

No, no, no, of course, that’s correct.’ I come back six months later, same person is spending the same money on the same project.” And here’s why.

不，不，不，当然，这是正确的。’六个月后我回来，同一个人在同一个项目上花了同样的钱。”原因如下。

Historically in Japan, and I should say, in Japan, this is changing now, it’s changing now, but historically, until very recently, and even to an extent now, it’s near impossible to fire people.

从历史上看，在日本，我应该说，在日本，现在这种情况正在改变，现在正在改变，但从历史上看，直到最近，甚至在某种程度上现在，解雇人几乎是不可能的。

1:01:13 So, if somebody works for you and you can’t fire them, that means they don’t actually work for you.

因此，如果有人为你工作而你无法解雇他们，那就意味着他们实际上并不为你工作。

It means in some deeper, perverse sense, you work for them because you’re responsible for what they do, without any authority to actually change it.

从某种更深层次、反常的意义上来说，这意味着你为他们工作是因为你对他们所做的事情负责，但没有任何权力去实际改变它。

1:01:29 So, I think most people who have traveled in Japan and Japanese corporate culture through the 1990s and 2000s and 2010s, and maybe even some vestiges in the 2020s, wouldn’t really dispute what I just told you.

因此，我认为大多数在 20 世纪 90 年代、2000 年代和 2010 年代游历过日本和日本企业文化的人，甚至可能是 2020 年代的一些遗迹，都不会真正质疑我刚才告诉你的内容。

Now, we’re bringing it back to the more contentious terrain.

现在，我们将其带回更具争议性的领域。

1:01:44 I think that’s basically how things have worked in the Executive Branch of the Federal Government of the United States of America.

我认为这基本上就是美利坚合众国联邦政府行政部门的运作方式。

You have these so-called Civil Service protections on the books.

书本上有这些所谓的公务员保护措施。

Now, if you really read them carefully, I think that there are areas to provide daylight for a truly constitutionally, well-trained President to act.

现在，如果你真的仔细阅读它们，我认为有一些领域可以为一位真正符合宪法、训练有素的总统采取行动提供阳光。

1:02:04 That’s a contrary view that I have that bucks conventional wisdom.

这是我的相反观点，违背了传统观念。

But apart from that caveat, in general, the conventional view has been, the US president can’t fire these people.

但除了这一警告之外，一般来说，传统观点是，美国总统不能解雇这些人。

There’s 4 million federal bureaucrats, 99.9% of them can’t be touched by the person who the people who elected to run the Executive Branch can’t even fire those people.

有400万联邦官僚，其中99.9％的人无法接触到那些当选行政部门的人甚至无法解雇这些人。

1:02:23 It’s the equivalent of that Japanese CEO.

相当于那个日本CEO。

And so, that culture exists every bit as much in the federal bureaucracy of the United States of America as they did in Japanese corporate culture through the 1990s.

因此，这种文化在美国联邦官僚机构中的存在与在 20 世纪 90 年代日本企业文化中的存在一样多。

1:02:34 And that’s a lot of what’s wrong with not just the way that our Department of Defense is run and our Foreign Policy establishment is run, but I think it applies to a lot of the Domestic Policy establishment as well.

这不仅是我们国防部的运作方式和外交政策机构的运作方式存在很多问题，而且我认为这也适用于许多国内政策机构。

1:02:45 And to come back to the core point, how are we going to save this republic?

回到核心问题，我们如何拯救这个共和国？

This is the debate in the Conservative Movement right now.

这是目前保守党运动中的争论。

So, this is maybe a little bit spicy for some Republicans to swallow right now, and my top focus is making sure that we win the election, but let’s just move the ball forward a little bit and skate to where the puck is going here, okay?

所以，对于一些共和党人来说，现在可能有点难以接受，我的首要任务是确保我们赢得选举，但让我们把球向前移动一点，滑到冰球要去的地方，好吗？

1:03:06 Yes, let’s say we win the election, all is well and dandy.

是的，假设我们赢得了选举，一切都很好。

Okay, what’s the philosophy that determines how we govern?

好吧，决定我们如何治理的哲学是什么？

There’s a little bit of a fork in the road amongst Conservatives where there are those who believe that the right answer now is to use that regulatory state and use those levers of power to advance our own pro-Conservative, pro-American, pro-worker goals.

保守党中间有一个岔路口，有些人认为现在正确的答案是利用监管国家并利用这些权力杠杆来推进我们自己的亲保守派、亲美国、亲工人的目标。

1:03:29 And I’m sympathetic to all of those goals, but I don’t think that the right way to do it is to create a Conservative regulatory state that replaces a Liberal regulatory state.

我对所有这些目标表示同情，但我认为正确的方法不是创建一个保守党监管国家来取代自由党监管国家。

I think the right answer is actually to get in there and shut it down.

我认为正确的答案实际上是进入那里并将其关闭。

I don’t want to replace the left-wing nanny state with a right-wing nanny state.

我不想用右翼保姆州取代左翼保姆州。

I want to get in there and actually dismantle the nanny state.

我想进入那里并真正废除保姆国家。

1:03:49 And I think it has been a long time in the United States, maybe ever in modern history, that we’ve had a Conservative leader at the national level who makes it their principal objective to dismantle the nanny state in all of its forms; the entitlement state, the regulatory state, and the foreign policy in nanny state.

我认为，在美国，也许在现代历史上，已经有很长一段时间了，我们有一位国家层面的保守党领导人，他的主要目标是废除所有形式的保姆国家；权利国家、监管​​国家和保姆国家的外交政策。

1:04:12 That was a core focus of my candidacy.

这是我竞选的核心焦点。

One of the things that I wish, and this is on me, not anybody else, that I should have done better, was to make that more crystal clear as a focus without getting distracted by a lot of the shenanigans, let’s just say, that happened as side-shows during a presidential campaign.

我希望做的一件事，是我，而不是其他人，我应该做得更好，就是让这个焦点更加清晰，而不会被很多恶作剧分散注意力，比如说，在总统竞选期间作为余兴节目发生的事情。

But call that a lesson learned, because I do think it’s what the country needs now more than ever.

但这是一个教训，因为我确实认为这是这个国家现在比以往任何时候都更需要的。

Yeah, it’s a really, really powerful idea.

是的，这是一个非常非常强大的想法。

1:04:39 It’s actually something that Donald Trump ran on in 2016-

这实际上是唐纳德·特朗普 (Donald Trump) 2016 年竞选时的主张——

Is to drain the swamp.

就是把沼泽地排干。

…

……

1:04:49 drain the swamp.

排干沼泽。

I think by most accounts, maybe you can disagree with me, he did not successfully do so.

我认为从大多数角度来看，也许你可以不同意我的观点，他没有成功地做到这一点。

He did fire a bunch of people, more than usual, but-

他确实解雇了一群人，比平时更多，但是——

Can I say a word about the conditions he was operating in, because I think that’s why I’m far more excited for this time around, is that a lot has changed in the legal landscape.

我能谈谈他的经营条件吗？因为我认为这就是为什么我这次更加兴奋的原因，因为法律环境发生了很多变化。

1:04:59 So, Donald Trump did not have the Supreme Court backdrop in 2016 that he does today.

因此，唐纳德·特朗普在 2016 年并没有今天那样的最高法院背景。

1:05:14 So, there’s some really important cases that have come down from the Supreme Court.

因此，最高法院审理了一些非常重要的案件。

One is West Virginia versus the EPA.

其中之一是西弗吉尼亚州与美国环保局的对决。

I think it’s probably the most important case of our generation.

我认为这可能是我们这一代人最重要的案例。

1:05:23 In 2022 that came down and said that if Congress has not passed a rule into law itself through the halls of Congress, and it relates to what they call a major question, a major policy or economic question, it can’t be done by the stroke of a pen by a regulator, an unelected bureaucrat either.

2022 年，这份报告称，如果国会没有通过国会大厅将某项规则本身通过为法律，而且它涉及到他们所谓的重大问题、重大政策或经济问题，那么监管者（未经选举产生的官僚）大笔一挥就无法完成这项规定。

1:05:41 That quite literally means most federal regulations today are unconstitutional.

从字面上看，这意味着当今大多数联邦法规都是违宪的。

Then, this year comes down a different big one, another big one from the Supreme Court in the Loper-Bright case, which held that, historically, for the last 50 years in this country, the doctrine has been, it’s called Chevron Deference.

然后，今年又出现了另一起重大案件，最高法院在 Loper-Bright 案中提出了另一起重大案件，该案件认为，从历史上看，在这个国家过去 50 年里，这一原则一直被称为“Chevron Deference”。

It’s a doctrine that says that federal courts have to defer to an agency…

这是一个原则，规定联邦法院必须服从某个机构……

1:06:00 Federal courts have to defer to an agency’s interpretation of the law.

联邦法院必须尊重机构对法律的解释。

They now tossed that out the window and said, “No, no, no.

他们现在把它扔出窗外并说：“不，不，不。

The federal courts no longer have to defer to an agency’s interpretation of what the law actually is.” The combination of those two cases is seismic in its impact for the regulatory state.

联邦法院不再需要遵从某个机构对法律实际含义的解释。”这两个案例的结合对监管国家的影响是巨大的。

There’s also another great case that came down, was SEC versus Jarkesy, and the SEC is one of these agencies that embodies everything we’re talking about here.

还有另一个很好的案例，即 SEC 与 Jarkesy 的诉讼，SEC 是体现我们在这里讨论的一切的机构之一。

1:06:27 The SEC, among other agencies, has tribunals inside that not only do they write the rules, not only do they enforce those rules, they also have these judges inside the agency that also interpret the rules and determine and dole out punishments.

SEC 和其他机构一样，内部设有法庭，他们不仅制定规则，执行这些规则，而且机构内部还有法官解释规则并确定和实施惩罚。

That doesn’t make sense if you believe in separation of powers in the United States, so the Supreme Court put an end to that and said that that practice at the SEC is unconstitutional.

如果你相信美国的三权分立，那么这是没有意义的，因此最高法院终止了这种做法，并表示 SEC 的这种做法违宪。

Actually, as a side note, the Supreme Court has said countless practices and rules written by the SEC, the EPA, the FTC in recent years, were outright unconstitutional.

事实上，顺便说一句，最高法院已经表示，美国证券交易委员会、美国环保署、联邦贸易委员会近年来制定的无数做法和规则是完全违宪的。

1:06:58 Think about what that means for a constitutional republic, that supposedly, these law enforcement agencies, the courts have now said, especially this year, the courts have now said that their own behaviors actually break the law.

想想这对于一个宪政共和国来说意味着什么，按说这些执法机构，法院现在都说，特别是今年，法院现在都说他们自己的行为实际上是违法的。

So the very agencies entrusted with supposedly enforcing the law are actually behaving with utter, blatant disregard for the law itself.

因此，那些本应负责执行法律的机构实际上完全公然无视法律本身。

That’s un-American, it’s not tenable in the United States of America, but thankfully, we now have a Supreme Court that recognizes that.

这是非美国式的，在美利坚合众国是站不住脚的，但值得庆幸的是，我们现在有一个承认这一点的最高法院。

1:07:31 So whether or not we have a second Trump term, well, that’s up to the voters, but even whether or not that now takes advantage of that backdrop the Supreme Court has given us to actually gut the regulatory state, we’ll find out.

因此，特朗普是否能连任，这取决于选民，但即使现在是否利用最高法院为我们提供的背景来真正破坏监管状态，我们也会知道。

I’m optimistic, I certainly think it’s the best chance that we’ve had in a generation in this country, and that’s a big part of why I’m supporting Donald Trump and why I’m going to do everything in my power to help him, but I do think it is going to take a spine of steel to see that through.

我很乐观，我当然认为这是我们这个国家这一代人所拥有的最好机会，这也是我支持唐纳德·特朗普以及我将尽我所能帮助他的一个重要原因，但我确实认为需要有钢铁般的脊梁才能实现这一点。

1:08:03 And then after we’ve taken on the regulatory state, I think that’s the next step, but I do think there’s this broader project of dismantling the nanny state in all of its forms, the entitlement state, the regulatory state, and the foreign policy in any state.

然后，在我们采取监管国家之后，我认为这是下一步，但我确实认为有一个更广泛的项目，即废除所有形式的保姆国家、权利国家、监管​​国家和任何国家的外交政策。

Three-word answer, if I was to summarize my worldview and my presidential campaign in three words, shut it down.

三个词的答案，如果我要用三个词来概括我的世界观和我的总统竞选活动，那就关闭它。

Shut it down.

关掉它。

1:08:25 Okay, so the Supreme Court cases you mentioned, there’s a lot of nuance there.

好吧，你提到的最高法院案件有很多细微差别。

Yeah.

是的。

I guess it’s weakening the immune system of the different departments.

我猜它正在削弱不同部门的免疫系统。

Yeah.

是的。

1:08:36 It’s a good way of putting it.

这是一个很好的表达方式。

Okay.

好的。

1:08:37 On the human psychology level, so you basically kind of implied that for Donald Trump or for any president, the legal situation was difficult.

在人类心理学层面上，你基本上是在暗示，对于唐纳德·特朗普或任何总统来说，法律处境都很困难。

Is that the only thing really operating?

这是唯一真正运作的东西吗？

Probably not.

可能不会。

Isn’t it also just on a psychological level just hard to fire a very large number of people.

是不是从心理层面来说，解雇大量员工也很困难。

1:08:53 Is that what it is?

是这样吗？

Is there a basic civility and momentum going on?

是否有基本的文明和气势？

Well, I think there’s one other factor.

嗯，我认为还有另一个因素。

1:09:04 So you’re right to point, the legal backdrop is a valid and understandable excuse and reason.

所以你说得对，法律背景是一个有效且可以理解的借口和理由。

I think there are other factors at play too.

我认为还有其他因素在起作用。

So I think there’s something to be said for never having been in government, showing up there the first time, and you’re having to understand the rules of the road as you’re operating within them, and also having to depend on people who actually aren’t aligned with your policy vision, but tell you to your face that they are.

所以我认为，对于从未在政府工作过、第一次出现在政府中的人来说，你必须了解你在其中运作的道路规则，并且还必须依赖那些实际上与你的政策愿景不一致但当面告诉你他们是的人。

1:09:36 And so I think that’s one of the things that I’ve admired about President Trump is he’s actually been very open about that, very humble about that, to say that there’s a million learnings from that first term that make him ambitious and more ambitious in that second term.

因此，我认为特朗普总统让我钦佩的一点是，他实际上对此非常开放，非常谦虚，他说，从第一个任期中学到了一百万个教训，这使他在第二个任期中更加雄心勃勃。

But everything I’m talking to you about, this is what needs to happen in the country.

但我和你们谈论的一切，都是这个国家需要发生的事情。

It’s not specific to Donald Trump.

这并不是唐纳德·特朗普特有的。

It lays out what needs to be done in the country.

它列出了该国需要做的事情。

There’s the next four years, Donald Trump is our last, best hope and chance for moving that ball forward.

在接下来的四年里，唐纳德·特朗普是我们推动这一进程的最后也是最好的希望和机会。

But I think that the vision I’m laying out here is one that hopefully goes even beyond just the next two or four years of really fixing a century’s worth of mistakes.

但我认为我在这里提出的愿景有望超越未来两四年的时间，真正纠正一个世纪以来犯下的错误。

1:10:12 I think we’re going to fix a lot of them in the next four years if Donald Trump’s president.

我认为，如果唐纳德·特朗普当选总统，我们将在未来四年内解决其中的很多问题。

But if you have a century’s worth of mistakes that have accumulated with the overgrowth of the entitlement state in the US, I think it’s going to take probably the better part of a decade at least to actually fix them.

但如果美国权利国家的过度增长积累了一个世纪的错误，我认为至少需要十年的大部分时间才能真正解决这些错误。

I disagree with you on both the last and the best hope.

对于最后的希望和最好的希望，我都不同意你的看法。

1:10:25 Donald Trump is more likely to fire a lot of people, but is he the best person to do so?

唐纳德·特朗普更有可能解雇很多人，但他是这样做的最佳人选吗？

We’ve got two candidates, right?

我们有两个候选人，对吗？

1:10:37 People face a choice.

人们面临着选择。

This is a relevant election.

这是一次相关的选举。

One of my goals is to speak to people who do not agree with 100% of what Donald Trump says.

我的目标之一是与那些不100%同意唐纳德·特朗普言论的人交谈。

And I can tell them, you know what?

我可以告诉他们，你知道吗？

I don’t agree with a hundred percent of what he says.

我不同意他所说的百分之一百。

And I can tell you as somebody who ran against him for US President, that right now he is, when I say the last, best hope, I mean in this cycle, the last, best hope that we have for dismantling that bureaucratic class.

作为与他竞选美国总统的人，我可以告诉你们，现在，当我说最后、最好的希望时，我的意思是在这个周期中，他是我们瓦解官僚阶级的最后、最好的希望。

1:11:05 And I think that I’m also open about the fact that this is a long run project, but we have the next step to actually take over the next few years.

我认为我也对这是一个长期项目这一事实持开放态度，但我们下一步将在未来几年内实际接管。

That’s kind of where I land on it.

这就是我的想法。

I mean, you talked to him I guess a few weeks ago.

我的意思是，我猜你几周前就和他谈过了。

I saw you had a podcast with him, right?

我看到你和他一起播客，对吧？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

What was your impression about his preparedness to do it?

您对他的准备工作印象如何？

My impression is his priority allocation was different than yours.

我的印象是他的优先级分配与你的不同。

1:11:24 I think he is more focused on some of the other topics that you are also focused on.

我认为他更关注你也关注的其他一些话题。

Border.

边界。

1:11:30 Laser focused on.

激光聚焦。

And there is a tension there, just as you’ve clearly highlighted.

正如您所明确强调的那样，那里存在着紧张气氛。

We share the same priority with respect to the southern border, and those are near term fixes that we can hit out of the park in the first year.

我们对南部边境有着同样的优先考虑，这些都是我们可以在第一年就解决的短期问题。

1:11:37 But at the same time, I think we got to think also on decade long time horizon.

但与此同时，我认为我们还必须考虑十年的时间跨度。

So my own view is I think that it is my conviction and belief that he does care about dismantling that federal bureaucracy, certainly more so than any Republican nominee we have had, certainly in my lifetime.

所以我自己的观点是，我认为我坚信和相信他确实关心废除联邦官僚机构，肯定比我们一生中的任何共和党提名人都更关心。

But I do think that there are going to be competing schools of thought where some will say, “Okay, well, we want to create a right-wing entitlement state to shower federal subsidies on favored industries while keeping them away from disfavored industries and new bureaucracies to administer them.”

但我确实认为，将会出现相互竞争的思想流派，有些人会说，“好吧，好吧，我们希望建立一个右翼权利国家，向受青睐的行业提供联邦补贴，同时让它们远离不受青睐的行业和新的官僚机构来管理它们。”

1:12:19 I don’t come from that school of thought.

我不是来自那种思想流派。

I don’t want to see the bureaucracy expand in a pro-conservative direction.

我不希望看到官僚机构向支持保守派的方向扩张。

I want to see the bureaucracy shrink in every direction.

我希望看到官僚机构在各个方面都缩小。

And I do think that, from my conversations with Donald Trump, I believe that he is well-aligned with this vision of shrinking bureaucracy, but that’s a longer-term project.

我确实认为，从我与唐纳德·特朗普的谈话来看，我相信他非常赞同缩减官僚机构的愿景，但这是一个长期项目。

There’s so many priorities at play here, though.

不过，这里有很多优先事项。

1:12:38 You really do have to do the Elon thing of walking into Twitter headquarters-

你确实必须像埃隆那样走进 Twitter 总部——

Shut it down.

关掉它。

…

……

1:12:45 with a sink.

带水槽。

Right?

正确的？

Let that sink in.

让它沉入其中。

That basically firing a very large number of people.

这基本上解雇了很多人。

And it’s not just about the firing, it’s about setting clear missions for the different departments that remain.

这不仅仅是解雇的问题，而是为剩下的不同部门设定明确的任务。

Hiring back because you over fire.

因为你太火了而重新雇用。

Hiring back based on meritocracy.

基于精英管理的重新招聘。

It’s a full-time…

这是一个全职…

and it’s not only full-time in terms of actual time’s, full-time psychologically, because you’re walking into a place unlike a company like Twitter, an already successful company.

这不仅是实际时间上的全职，心理上的全职，因为你走进的地方与 Twitter 这样的公司不同，这是一家已经很成功的公司。

In government, everybody around you, all the experts and the advisors are going to tell you you’re wrong.

在政府里，你周围的每个人、所有专家和顾问都会告诉你你错了。

And it’s a very difficult psychological place to operate in because you’re constantly the asshole.

这是一个非常难以操作的心理状态，因为你总是混蛋。

And the certainty you have to have about what you’re doing is nearly infinite because everybody, all the really smart people are telling you, “No, this is a terrible idea.

你对自己正在做的事情必须有几乎无限的确定性，因为每个人，所有真正聪明的人都在告诉你，“不，这是一个糟糕的主意。

Sir, this is a terrible idea.”

先生，这是一个糟糕的主意。”

You have to have this spine of steel to cut through what that short-term advice is you’re getting.

你必须有钢铁般的脊梁才能克服你所得到的短期建议。

1:13:52 And I’ll tell you, certainly, I intend to do whatever I can for this country, both in the next four years and beyond, but my voice on this will be crystal clear and President Trump knows that’s my view on it, and I believe he shares it deeply, is that all else equal, get in there and shut down as much of the excess bureaucracy as we can.

当然，我会告诉你，我打算在未来四年及以后为这个国家尽我所能，但我对此的声音将是非常明确的，特朗普总统知道这就是我对此的看法，我相信他深深同意这一点，即在其他条件相同的情况下，介入并尽可能关闭多余的官僚机构。

Do it as quickly as possible.

尽快做。

And that’s a big part of how we save our country.

这是我们拯救国家的重要组成部分。

Okay, I’ll give you an example that’s really difficult.

好吧，我给你举一个非常困难的例子。

1:14:24 Tension, given your priorities.

考虑到你的优先事项，紧张。

Immigration, there’s an estimated 14 million illegal immigrants in the United States.

移民方面，美国估计有 1400 万非法移民。

You’ve spoken about mass deportation.

你谈到了大规模驱逐出境。

Yes.

是的。

That requires a lot of effort.

这需要付出很大的努力。

1:14:39 Money.

钱。

I mean, how do you do it and how does that conflict with the shutting it down?

我的意思是，你是如何做到的，这与关闭它有何冲突？

Sure.

当然。

1:14:48 And so it goes back to that original discussion we had is what are the few proper roles of the federal government?

所以这又回到了我们最初的讨论，联邦政府的适当角色是什么？

I gave you two.

我给了你两个。

Of the government, period.

政府的，时期。

One is to protect the national borders and sovereignty of the United States, and two is to protect private property rights.

一是保护美国的国界和主权，二是保护私有财产权。

There’s a lot else.

还有很多其他的。

Most of what the government’s doing today, both at the federal and state level, is something other than those two things.

今天政府在联邦和州一级所做的大部分事情都与这两件事不同。

But in my book, those are the two things that are the proper function of government.

但在我的书中，这两件事是政府的正当职能。

So for everything else, the federal government should not be doing, the one thing they should be doing is to protect the homeland of the United States of America and the sovereignty and sanctity of our national borders.

因此，对于其他一切，联邦政府不应该做，他们应该做的一件事就是保护美利坚合众国的祖国以及我们国家边界的主权和神圣性。

1:15:23 So in that domain, that’s mission aligned with a proper purpose for the federal government.

因此，在这个领域，这一使命与联邦政府的正确目的相一致。

I think we’re a nation founded on the rule of law.

我认为我们是一个建立在法治基础上的国家。

I say this as the kid of legal immigrants.

我作为合法移民的孩子这么说。

That means your first act of entering this country cannot break the law.

这意味着你进入这个国家的第一次行为不能违法。

And in some ways, if I was to summarize a formula for saving the country over the next four years, it would be a tale of two mass deportations.

在某些方面，如果我要总结一个未来四年拯救国家的公式，那就是两次大规模驱逐的故事。

The mass deportations of millions of illegals who are in this country and should not be, and then the mass deportation of millions of unelected federal bureaucrats out of Washington D.C.

大规模驱逐数百万不应该在这个国家的非法移民，然后将数百万未经选举产生的联邦官僚大规模驱逐出华盛顿特区。

1:15:53 Now, all else equal, could say that those are intention, but I think that the reality is anything outside of the scope of what the core function of the government is, which is protecting borders and protecting private property rights, that’s really where I think the predominant cuts need to be.

现在，在其他条件相同的情况下，可以说这些都是意图，但我认为现实是政府核心职能范围之外的任何事情，即保护边境和保护私人产权，这确实是我认为需要进行主要削减的地方。

And if you look at the number of people who are looking after the border, it’s not even 0.1% of the federal employee base today.

如果你看看负责边境事务的人数，你会发现，这个数字还不到今天联邦雇员总数的 0.1%。

So 75% isn’t 99.99%, it’s 75%.

所以 75% 不是 99.99%，而是 75%。

It would still be a tiny fraction of the remaining 25%, which I actually think needs to be more rather than less.

这仍然只是剩余 25% 的一小部分，我实际上认为需要更多而不是更少。

So it’s a good question, but that’s where I land on when it’s a proper role of the federal government, great.

所以这是一个很好的问题，但这就是我在联邦政府发挥适当作用时所提出的问题，太好了。

Act and actually do your job.

行动起来，切实做好你的工作。

The irony is 99.9999% of those resources are going to functions other than the protection of private property rights and the protection of our national physical protection.

讽刺的是，这些资源的99.9999%都被用于保护私有财产权和保护我们国家的实物保护之外的功能。

There is a lot of criticism of the idea of mass deportation though.

不过，大规模驱逐出境的想法受到了很多批评。

1:16:43 So one-

所以一-

Fair enough.

很公平。

…

……

1:16:47 it will cause a large amount of economic harm, at least in the short term.

至少在短期内，它将造成大量的经济损失。

The other is there would be potentially violations of our higher ideals of how we like to treat human beings, in particular separation of families, for example, tearing families apart.

另一个是，这可能会违反我们对待人类的更高理想，特别是家庭分离，例如，拆散家庭。

And the other is just the logistical complexity of doing something like this.

另一个是做这样的事情的后勤复杂性。

How do you answer some of those criticisms, I guess?

我想你如何回应其中一些批评？

Fair enough.

很公平。

1:17:15 And I would call those even, not even criticisms, but just thoughtful questions.

我认为这些甚至不是批评，而是深思熟虑的问题。

Even to somebody who’s really aligned with doing this, those are thoughtful questions to ask.

即使对于那些真正愿意这样做的人来说，这些都是需要深思熟虑的问题。

So I do want to say something about this point on how we think about the breakage of the rule of law in other contexts.

因此，我确实想就这一点谈谈我们如何看待其他情况下法治的破坏。

There are 350,000 mothers who are in prison in the United States today who committed crimes and were convicted of them.

如今，美国有 350,000 名犯有罪行并被判有罪的母亲被关进监狱。

They didn’t take their kids with them to those prisons either, right?

他们也没有带着孩子去那些监狱，对吗？

So we face difficult trade-offs in all kinds of contexts as it relates to the enforcement of law.

因此，我们在涉及执法的各种情况下都面临着艰难的权衡。

1:17:46 And I just want to make that basic observation against the backdrop of if we’re a nation founded on the rule of law, we that there are trade-offs to enforcing the law, and we’ve acknowledged that in other contexts.

我只想在这样的背景下做出这一基本观察：如果我们是一个建立在法治基础上的国家，那么执行法律就需要权衡，而且我们在其他情况下也承认这一点。

I don’t think that we should have a special exemption for saying that somehow we weigh the other way when it comes to the issue of the border.

我不认为我们应该有特殊的豁免权，因为我们在边界问题上以某种方式权衡了其他方式。

We’re a nation founded in the rule of law.

我们是一个建立在法治基础上的国家。

We enforce laws, that has costs, that has trade-offs, but it’s who we are.

我们执行法律，需要付出代价，需要权衡，但这就是我们。

And the easiest fact I can cite is 350,000 or so mothers who are in prison and did not take their kids to prison with them.

我能举出的最简单的事实是，大约有 350,000 名母亲入狱，但她们没有带孩子一起入狱。

1:18:19 Is that bad?

那很糟糕吗？

Is it undesirable for the kids to grow up without those 350,000 mothers?

孩子们成长过程中没有这35万个母亲是不是不受欢迎？

It is, but it’s a difficult situation created by people who violated the law and faced the consequences of it, which is also a competing and important priority in the country.

确实如此，但这是由违法者造成的困难局面，并面临法律后果，这也是该国一个竞争性的重要优先事项。

So that’s in the domestic context.

所以这是在国内背景下。

1:18:36 As it relates to this question of mass deportations, let’s just get very practical because all that was theoretical.

由于它涉及大规模驱逐的问题，让我们变得非常实际，因为所有这些都是理论上的。

Very practically, there’s ways to do this.

实际上，有很多方法可以做到这一点。

Starting with people who have already broken the law, people who have not just broken the law of entering but are committing other crimes while already here in the United States.

从已经违法的人开始，这些人不仅违反了入境法律，而且已经在美国犯下了其他罪行。

That’s a clear case for an instant mass deportation.

这是立即大规模驱逐出境的明显例子。

You have a lot of people who haven’t integrated into their communities.

有很多人还没有融入他们的社区。

You think about the economic impact of this, a lot of people are in detention already.

你想想这对经济的影响，很多人已经被拘留了。

A lot of those people should be immediately returned to their country of origin, or at least what is called a safe third country.

其中许多人应该立即返回原籍国，或者至少返回所谓的安全第三国。

1:19:07 So safe third country means even if somebody’s claiming to seek asylum from political persecution, well, move them to another country that doesn’t have to be the United States of America that they passed through, say, Mexico before actually coming here.

因此，安全的第三国意味着，即使有人声称寻求政治迫害庇护，也可以将他们转移到另一个国家，而这个国家不一定是他们在实际来到这里之前经过的美利坚合众国，例如墨西哥。

Other countries around the world are doing this.

世界其他国家也在这样做。

Australia is detaining people.

澳大利亚正在拘留人员。

They don’t let them out and live a normal, joyful life because they came to the country.

他们不让他们出去，因为他们来到了乡下，过着正常、快乐的生活。

They detain them until their case is adjudicated.

他们拘留他们，直到案件判决为止。

Well, the rates of fraud in Australia, of what people lie about, what their conditions are, is way lower now than in the United States because people respond to those incentives.

嗯，澳大利亚的欺诈率，人们撒谎的比率，他们的状况，现在比美国低得多，因为人们对这些激励措施做出了反应。

1:19:37 So I think that in some ways, people make this sound much bigger and scarier than it needs to be.

所以我认为，在某些方面，人们让这听起来比实际需要的更大、更可怕。

I feel we’re taking a deeply pragmatic approach, and the North Star for me is I want the policy that helps the United States citizens who are already here.

我觉得我们正在采取一种非常务实的方法，对我来说北极星是我想要帮助已经在这里的美国公民的政策。

What’s that policy?

那是什么政策？

Clearly, that’s going to be a policy that includes a large number of deportations.

显然，这将是一项包括大量驱逐出境的政策。

I think by definition, it’s going to be the largest mass deportation in American history.

我认为根据定义，这将是美国历史上最大规模的驱逐出境。

Sounds like a punchline at a campaign rally, but actually, it’s just a factual statement that says if we’ve had the by far largest influx of illegal immigrants in American history, it just stands to reason, it’s logic that, okay, if we’re going to fix that, we’re going to have the largest mass deportation in American history.

听起来像是竞选集会上的笑点，但实际上，这只是一个事实陈述，如果我们遇到了美国历史上迄今为止最大规模的非法移民涌入，那么这是合乎逻辑的，好吧，如果我们要解决这个问题，我们将面临美国历史上最大规模的大规模驱逐出境。

1:20:14 And we can be rational.

我们可以保持理性。

Start with people who are breaking the law in other ways here in the United States.

从在美国以其他方式违法的人开始。

Start with people who are already in detention or entering detention now.

从已经被拘留或正在被拘留的人开始。

That comes at no cost and strict benefit.

这是没有成本和严格利益的。

There isn’t even a little bit of an economic trade-off.

甚至没有一点经济权衡。

Then you get to areas where you would say, okay, the costs actually continue to outweigh the benefits, and that’s exactly the way our policy should be guided here.

然后你会说，好吧，成本实际上继续超过收益，而这正是我们的政策应该遵循的方式。

I want to do it in as respectful and as humane of a manner as possible.

我希望以尽可能尊重和人道的方式做到这一点。

1:20:41 The reality is, I think one of the things we got to remember, I’ll give you the example I gave with the Haitian case in Springfield, town that I spent a lot of time in growing up in Ohio.

现实是，我认为我们必须记住的一件事是，我将举一个我在斯普林菲尔德镇的海地案例中举的例子，我在俄亥俄州长大，在那里度过了很多时间。

I live about an hour from there today.

我今天住的地方距离那里大约一个小时。

I don’t blame the individual Haitians who came here.

我不责怪来到这里的海地人。

I’m not saying that they’re bad people because in that particular case, those weren’t even people who broke the law in coming here.

我并不是说他们是坏人，因为在那种特殊情况下，他们甚至不是违法来到这里的人。

They came as part of a program called Temporary Protective Status.

它们是“临时保护身份”计划的一部分。

Now, the operative word there was the first one, “temporary”.

现在，关键词是第一个，“暂时”。

There have been all kinds of lawsuits for people who, even 8, 10, 12, 14 years after the earthquake in Haiti where many of them came, when they’re going to be removed, there are allegations of racial discrimination or otherwise.

对于那些来到海地的人来说，即使是在地震发生8年、10年、12年、14年后，当他们要被转移时，也有各种各样的诉讼，甚至有种族歧视或其他方面的指控。

1:21:22 No.

不。

Temporary protective status means it’s temporary, and we’re not abandoning the rule of law when we send them back, we’re abandoning the rule of law when we let them stay.

临时保护身份意味着它是暂时的，当我们将他们送回时，我们并不是放弃法治，而是当我们让他们留下来时，我们放弃了法治。

Now, if that has a true benefit to the United States of America, economically or otherwise, go through the paths that allow somebody to enter this country for economic reasons, but don’t do it through asylum-based claims or Temporary Protected Status.

现在，如果这对美利坚合众国确实有好处，无论是经济上还是其他方面，请通过允许某人出于经济原因进入这个国家的途径，但不要通过基于庇护的申请或临时保护身份来这样做。

I think one of the features of our immigration system right now is it is built on a lie and it incentivizes lying.

我认为目前我们移民制度的特点之一是它建立在谎言之上，并且鼓励说谎。

The reason is the arguments for keeping people in the country, if those are economic reasons but the people actually entered using claims of asylum or refugee status, those two things don’t match up.

原因是让人们留在该国的论点，如果这些是经济原因，但人们实际上是利用庇护或难民地位的要求进入的，那么这两件事就不相符。

1:22:03 So just be honest about what our immigration system actually is.

因此，请诚实地了解我们的移民制度实际上是什么。

I think we do need dramatic reforms to the legal immigration system to select purposely for the people who are going to actually improve the United States of America.

我认为我们确实需要对合法移民制度进行重大改革，以便有目的地选择那些将真正改善美利坚合众国的人。

I think there are many people, I know some of them.

我认为有很多人，我认识其中一些人。

I gave a story of one guy who I met who is educated at our best universities or among our best universities.

我讲了一个我遇到的一个人的故事，他在我们最好的大学或我们最好的大学中接受过教育。

He went to Princeton.

他去了普林斯顿。

He went to Harvard Business School.

他去了哈佛商学院。

He has a great job in the investment community.

他在投资界有着出色的工作。

He was a professional tennis player.

他是一名职业网球运动员。

He was a concert pianist.

他是一位音乐会钢琴家。

He could do a Rubik’s cube in less than a minute.

他可以在一分钟内完成一个魔方。

I’m not making this stuff up.

我不是在编造这些东西。

These are hard facts.

这些都是铁的事实。

He can’t get a green card in the United States.

他在美国拿不到绿卡。

He’s been here for 10 years or something like this.

他已经在这里呆了十年左右了。

1:22:40 He asked me for the best advice I could give him.

他问我能给他最好的建议。

I unfortunately could not give him the actual best advice, which would be to just take a flight to Mexico and cross the border and claim to be somebody who is seeking asylum in the United States.

不幸的是，我无法给他真正最好的建议，那就是直接飞往墨西哥并越过边境并声称自己是在美国寻求庇护的人。

That would have been morally wrong advice, so I didn’t give it to them.

这在道德上是错误的建议，所以我没有给他们。

But practically, if you were giving him advice, that would be the best advice that you actually could give somebody, which is a broken system on both sides.

但实际上，如果你给他建议，那将是你实际上可以给某人的最好建议，这对双方来说都是一个破碎的系统。

People who are going to make those contributions to the United States and pledge allegiance to the United States and speak our language and assimilate, we should have a path for them to be able to add value to the United States.

对于那些将为美国做出贡献、宣誓效忠美国、说我们的语言并被同化的人们，我们应该为他们提供一条能够为美国增加价值的道路。

Yet they’re not the ones who are getting in.

然而他们并不是进入的人。

1:23:14 Our immigration system selects for people who are willing to lie.

我们的移民系统选择愿意撒谎的人。

That’s what it does.

这就是它的作用。

Selects for people who are willing to say they’re seeking refugee status or seeking asylum when in fact, they’re not.

选择那些愿意说自己正在寻求难民身份或寻求庇护但实际上并非如此的人。

And then we have policymakers who lie after the fact using economic justifications to keep them here.

然后我们的政策制定者在事后利用经济理由撒谎，让他们留在这里。

But if it was an economic justification, that should have been the criteria you used to bring them in the first place, not this illusion of asylum or refugee status.

但如果这是一个经济理由，那么这应该是你首先用来考虑他们的标准，而不是这种庇护或难民地位的幻想。

There was a case, actually, even the New York Times reported on this, believe it or not, of a woman who came from Russia fleeing Vladimir Putin’s intolerant, anti-LGBTQ regime.

事实上，不管你信不信，《纽约时报》都报道过这样一个案例：一名来自俄罗斯的女性逃离弗拉基米尔·普京的不宽容、反 LGBTQ 政权。

She was fleeing persecution by the evil man, Putin.

她正在逃离恶人普京的迫害。

1:23:53 She came here and eventually when she was pressed on the series of lies, it came out that, and she was crying finally, when she broke down and admitted this, she was like, “I’m not even gay.

她来到这里，最终当她被逼问一系列谎言时，事实证明，她终于哭了，当她崩溃并承认这一点时，她就像，“我什至不是同性恋。

I don’t even like gay people.” That’s what she said.

我什至不喜欢同性恋。”她就是这么说的。

And yet she was pretending to be some sort of LGBTQ advocate who was persecuted in Russia when in fact, it was just somebody who was seeking better economic conditions in the United States.

然而，她假装自己是某种在俄罗斯受到迫害的 LGBTQ 倡导者，而事实上，她只是在美国寻求更好的经济条件。

I’m not saying you’re wrong to seek better economic conditions in the United States, but you are wrong to lie about it, and that’s what you’re seeing a lot of people, even in this industry of quote, unquote, tourism to the United States, they’re having their kids in the United States.

我并不是说你在美国寻求更好的经济条件是错误的，但你撒谎是错误的，这就是你所看到的很多人，即使在这个引用、取消引用、到美国旅游的行业，他们也在美国生孩子。

They go back to their home country, but their kids enjoy birthright citizenship.

他们回到自己的祖国，但他们的孩子享有与生俱来的公民权。

That’s built on a lie.

这是建立在谎言之上的。

1:24:31 You have people claiming to suffer from persecution.

有人声称遭受迫害。

In fact, they’re just working in the United States and then living in these relative mansions in parts of Mexico or Central America after they’ve spent four or five years making money here.

事实上，他们只是在美国工作，然后在墨西哥或中美洲赚钱了四五年后，住在墨西哥或中美洲部分地区的相对豪宅里。

Just abandon the lie.

就放弃谎言吧。

Let’s just have an immigration system built on honesty.

让我们建立一个建立在诚实基础上的移民制度。

Just tell the truth.

只要说实话。

If the argument is that we need more people here for economically filling jobs, I’m skeptical the extent to which a lot of those arguments actually end up being true.

如果争论的焦点是我们需要更多的人来填补经济上的空缺，那么我对这些争论的真实性表示怀疑。

But let’s have that debate in the open rather than having it through the back door saying that it’s refugee and asylum status when we know it’s a lie, and then we justify it after the fact by saying that that economically helps the United States.

但是，让我们公开辩论，而不是在我们知道这是谎言的情况下通过后门说这是难民和庇护身份，然后我们在事后证明它是合理的，说这在经济上对美国有帮助。

1:25:03 Cut the dishonesty.

斩断不诚实。

And I just think that that is a policy we would do well to expand every sphere.

我只是认为这是一项我们可以很好地扩展各个领域的政策。

We talk about from the military industrial complex to the rise of the managerial class, to a lot of what our government’s covered up about our own history to even this question of immigration today.

我们谈论从军事工业联合体到管理阶层的崛起，到我们政府掩盖的许多关于我们自己历史的事情，甚至今天的移民问题。

Just tell the people the truth, and I think our government would be better serving our people if it did.

只要告诉人民真相，我认为如果这样做的话，我们的政府会更好地为我们的人民服务。

Yeah, in the way you describe eloquently, the immigration system is broken in that way that is built fundamentally on lies.

是的，正如你雄辩地描述的那样，移民制度被破坏的方式基本上是建立在谎言之上的。

1:25:24 But there’s the other side of it.

但事情还有另一面。

Illegal immigrants are used in political campaigns for fearmongering, for example.

例如，非法移民被用于散布恐惧的政治运动。

So what I would like to understand is what is the actual harm that illegal immigrants are causing?

那么我想了解的是，非法移民造成的实际危害是什么？

So one of the more intense claims is of crime, and I haven’t studied this rigorously, but the surface level studies all show that legal and illegal immigrants commit less crime than US born citizens.

因此，更强烈的主张之一是犯罪，我没有对此进行严格研究，但表面层面的研究都表明，合法和非法移民的犯罪率比美国出生的公民要少。

I think it’s true for legal immigrants.

我认为对于合法移民来说也是如此。

1:26:08 I think it’s not true for illegal immigrants.

我认为对于非法移民来说情况并非如此。

That’s not what I saw.

这不是我所看到的。

And this is part of why I wrote this book and the book is called Truths.

这就是我写这本书的部分原因，这本书叫做《真理》。

1:26:14 So better darn well have well-sourced facts in here.

所以最好这里有来源良好的事实。

Can’t be made up Hypotheses, hard truths.

无法编造的假设，残酷的事实。

And there’s a chapter where, even in my own research on it, Lex, I know a lot about this issue from my time as a presidential candidate, but even in writing the chapter on the border here, I learned a lot from a lot of different dimensions and some of which even caused me to revise some of my premises going into it, okay.

还有一章，即使在我自己的研究中，莱克斯，我从作为总统候选人的时候就知道了很多关于这个问题的知识，但即使在这里写关于边界的章节，我从很多不同的维度学到了很多东西，其中一些甚至导致我修改了我的一些前提，好吧。

My main thesis in that chapter is forget the demonization of illegal or legal immigrants or whatever, as you put it, fearmongering.

我在那一章的主要论点是忘记对非法或合法移民的妖魔化，或者像你所说的那样，散布恐惧。

Just put all that to one side.

把所有这些都放在一边。

1:26:55 I want an immigration system that is built on honesty.

我想要一个建立在诚实基础上的移民制度。

Identify what the objective is.

确定目标是什么。

We could debate the objective.

我们可以就目标进行辩论。

We might have different opinions on the objectives.

我们可能对目标有不同的看法。

Some people may say the objective is the economic growth of the United States.

有人可能会说，目标是美国的经济增长。

I air that argument in this book, and I think that that’s insufficient, personally.

我在本书中阐述了这一论点，但我个人认为这还不够。

Personally, I think the United States is more than just an economic zone.

就我个人而言，我认为美国不仅仅是一个经济区。

It is a country.

这是一个国家。

It is a nation bound together by civic ideals.

这是一个通过公民理想联系在一起的国家。

I think we need to screen not just for immigrants, who are going to make economic contributions, but those who speak our language, those who are able to assimilate and those who share those civic ideals and know the US history even better than the average US citizen who’s here.

我认为我们不仅需要筛选那些将做出经济贡献的移民，还需要筛选那些说我们语言的人、那些能够同化的人、那些拥有共同公民理想、比这里的普通美国公民更了解美国历史的人。

That’s what I believe.

这就是我所相信的。

1:27:38 But even if you disagree with me and say, “No, no, the sole goal is economic production in the United States,” then at least have an immigration system that’s honest about that rather than one which claims to solve for that goal by bringing in people who are rewarded for being a refugee, we should reward the people in that model, which I don’t even think should be the whole model.

但即使你不同意我的观点，并说，“不，不，美国的唯一目标是经济生产”，那么至少要有一个对此诚实的移民制度，而不是声称通过引进因成为难民而获得奖励的人来解决这一目标的制度，我们应该奖励那种模式中的人，我什至认为这不应该是整个模式。

But even if that were your model, reward the people who have demonstrably proven that they would make economic contributions to the United States, not the people who have demonstrated that they’re willing to lie to achieve a goal.

但即使这是你的模式，也要奖励那些已明确证明自己将为美国做出经济贡献的人，而不是那些已证明愿意撒谎以实现目标的人。

1:28:10 And right now, our immigration system, if it rewards one quality over any other, if there’s one parameter that it rewards over any other, it isn’t civic allegiance to the United States, it isn’t fluency in English, it isn’t the ability to make an economic contribution to this country.

现在，我们的移民制度，如果它奖励一种品质胜过其他任何品质，如果它奖励一个参数胜过其他任何一个参数，那不是对美国的公民忠诚，不是流利的英语，不是为这个国家做出经济贡献的能力。

The number one human attribute that our immigration system rewards is whether or not you are willing to lie.

我们的移民制度奖励的第一个人类属性是你是否愿意撒谎。

And the people who are telling those lies about whether they’re seeking asylum or not are the ones who are most likely to get in.

那些在是否寻求庇护方面撒谎的人是最有可能获得庇护的人。

And the people who are most unwilling to tell those lies are the ones who are actually not getting in.

而那些最不愿意说谎的人正是那些实际上没有加入的人。

1:28:44 That is a hard, uncomfortable truth about our immigration system.

关于我们的移民制度，这是一个残酷且令人不安的事实。

And the reason is because the law says you only get asylum if you’re going to face bodily harm or near-term risk of bodily injury based on your religion, your ethnicity, or certain other factors.

原因是法律规定，只有当您因宗教、种族或某些其他因素而面临身体伤害或近期身体伤害风险时，您才能获得庇护。

And so when you come into the country, you’re asked, “Do you fulfill that criteria or not?” And the number one way to get into this country is to check the box and say yes.

因此，当你来到这个国家时，你会被问到：“你是否符合这个标准？”进入这个国家的首要方法就是勾选复选框并说“是”。

So that means just systematically, imagine if you’re a university, Harvard or Yale or whatever, you’re running your admissions process, the number one attribute you’re selecting for isn’t your SAT score, it isn’t your GPA, it isn’t your athletic accomplishments.

所以这意味着，系统地想象一下，如果你是一所大学，哈佛大学或耶鲁大学或其他什么学校，你在招生过程中，你选择的第一要素不是你的 SAT 成绩，不是你的 GPA，也不是你的运动成绩。

It’s whether or not you’re willing to lie on the application.

关键在于你是否愿意在申请表上撒谎。

You’re going to have a class populated by a bunch of charlatans and frauds.

你的班级里将充满了一群江湖骗子和骗子。

1:29:29 That’s exactly what our immigration system is doing to the United States of America, is it is literally selecting for the people who are willing to lie.

这正是我们的移民系统正在对美利坚合众国所做的事情，它实际上是在选择那些愿意撒谎的人。

Let’s say you have somebody who’s a person of integrity says, “Okay, I want a better life for my family, but I want to teach my kids that I’m not going to lie or break the law to do it.” That person is infinitely less likely to get into the United States.

假设有一个正直的人说：“好吧，我想让我的家人过上更好的生活，但我想告诉我的孩子，我不会撒谎或违法。”那个人进入美国的可能性无限小。

I know it sounds provocative to frame it that way, but it is not an opinion.

我知道这样表述听起来很挑衅，但这不是一种意见。

It is a fact that that is the number one human attribute that our current immigration system is selecting for.

事实上，这是我们当前移民制度选择的首要人类属性。

1:29:59 I want an immigration system centered on honesty.

我想要一个以诚实为中心的移民制度。

In order to implement that, we require acknowledging what the goals of our immigration system are in the first place.

为了实现这一目标，我们首先需要确认我们移民制度的目标是什么。

And there we have competing visions on the right, okay?

我们在右翼也有相互竞争的愿景，好吗？

Amongst conservatives, there’s a rift.

保守派内部存在分歧。

Some conservatives believe, I respect them for their honesty, I disagree with them, believe that the goal of the immigration system should be to, in part, protect American workers from the effects of foreign wage competition.

一些保守派认为，我尊重他们的诚实，但我不同意他们的观点，认为移民制度的目标应该部分是保护美国工人免受外国工资竞争的影响。

That if we have immigrants, it’s going to bring down prices and we need to protect American workers from the effects of that downward pressure on wages.

如果我们有移民，就会降低物价，我们需要保护美国工人免受工资下行压力的影响。

It’s a goal.

这是一个目标。

It’s a coherent goal.

这是一个连贯的目标。

I don’t think it’s the right goal, but many of my friends on the right believe that’s a goal, but at least it’s honest.

我不认为这是正确的目标，但我的许多右翼朋友认为这是一个目标，但至少它是诚实的。

And then we can design an honest immigration system to achieve that goal if that’s their goal.

然后我们可以设计一个诚实的移民制度来实现这一目标（如果这是他们的目标）。

I have other friends on the right that say the sole goal is economic growth, nothing else matters.

我还有其他右派朋友说，唯一的目标是经济增长，其他都不重要。

I disagree with that as well.

我也不同意这一点。

My view is the goal should be whatever enriches the civic quality of the United States of America.

我的观点是，目标应该是能够丰富美利坚合众国公民素质的目标。

That includes those who know the language, know our ideals, pledge allegiance to those ideals, and also are willing to make economic contributions to the country, which is one of our ideals as well.

这包括那些懂我们的语言、了解我们的理想、宣誓效忠这些理想、并且愿意为国家做出经济贡献的人，这也是我们的理想之一。

1:31:03 But whatever it is, we can have that debate, I have a very different view.

但无论如何，我们可以进行辩论，我有非常不同的观点。

I don’t think it’s a proper role of immigration policy to make it a form of labor policy because the United States of America is founded on excellence, we should be able to compete.

我认为移民政策作为一种劳工政策的形式并不合适，因为美利坚合众国是建立在卓越的基础上的，我们应该能够竞争。

But that’s a policy debate we can have.

但这是我们可以进行的政策辩论。

But right now, we are not even able to have the policy debate because the whole immigration policy is built on not only a lie, but on rewarding those who do lie.

但现在，我们甚至无法进行政策辩论，因为整个移民政策不仅建立在谎言之上，而且建立在奖励那些撒谎的人之上。

And that’s what I want to see change.

这就是我希望看到的改变。

Just to linger a little bit on the demonization and to bring Ann Coulter into the picture, which I recommend people should listen to your conversation with her, I haven’t listened to her much, but she had this thing where she’s clearly admires and respects you as a human being.

只是为了在妖魔化上停留一点，并将安·库尔特带入画面，我建议人们应该听听你与她的谈话，我没听过她太多，但她有这样的东西，她显然钦佩并尊重你作为一个人。

1:31:25 And she’s basically saying.

她基本上是在说。

You’re one of the good ones.

你是好人之一。

And this idea that you had this brilliant question of what does it mean to be an American?

你有一个关于作为美国人意味着什么的绝妙问题？

And she basically said, “Not you, Vivek.” But she said, “Well, maybe you, but not people like you.” So that whole kind of approach to immigration, I think is really anti-meritocratic fundamentally.

她基本上是说，“不是你，维韦克。”但她说：“好吧，也许是你，但不是像你这样的人。”因此，我认为这种移民方式从根本上来说是反精英主义的。

Maybe even anti-American.

甚至可能是反美的。

Anti-American, yeah.

反美，是的。

So I want to confront this directly because it is a popular current on the American right.

所以我想直接面对这个问题，因为这是美国右翼的一个流行趋势。

1:32:16 And the reason I’m not picking on Ann Coulter specifically is I think actually it’s a much more widely shared view, and I just give her at least credit for willing to articulate it, a view that the blood and soil is what makes for your American identity or genetic lineage.

我之所以没有专门针对安·库尔特，是因为我认为这实际上是一种更广泛的共同观点，我只是赞扬她愿意表达这一观点，即血统和土壤造就了你的美国身份或遗传血统。

And I just reject that view, I think it’s anti-American.

我只是拒绝这种观点，我认为这是反美的。

I think what makes for an American identity is your allegiance, your abiding allegiance to the founding ideals of this country and your willingness to pledge allegiance to those ideals.

我认为构成美国身份的是你的忠诚，你对这个国家的建国理想的持久忠诚，以及你宣誓效忠这些理想的意愿。

1:32:49 So those are two different views.

所以这是两种不同的观点。

I think that there is a view on the American right right now that says that we’re not a creedal nation, that our nation’s not about a creed.

我认为现在美国有一种观点认为我们不是一个信条国家，我们的国家与信条无关。

It’s about a physical place and a physical homeland.

这是关于一个实际的地方和一个实际的家园。

I think that view fails on several accounts.

我认为这种观点在很多方面都是失败的。

Obviously, every nation has to have a geographic space that it defines its own.

显然，每个国家都必须有一个自己定义的地理空间。

So obviously we are, among other things, a geographic space.

显然，除其他外，我们是一个地理空间。

But the essence of the United States of America, I think is the common creed, the ideals that hold that common nation together.

但我认为美利坚合众国的本质是共同的信条，是将这个共同国家凝聚在一起的理想。

1:33:22 Without that, a few things happen.

如果没有这个，就会发生一些事情。

First of all, American exceptionalism becomes impossible.

首先，美国例外论变得不可能。

And I’ll tell you why.

我会告诉你原因。

Every other nation is also built on the same idea.

其他所有国家也都建立在同样的理念之上。

Most nations have been built on common blood and soil arguments, genetic stock.

大多数国家都是建立在共同的血统和土壤、遗传基础上的。

Italy or Japan would have a stronger national identity than the United States in that case, because they have a much longer standing claim on what their genetic lineage really was.

在这种情况下，意大利或日本将比美国拥有更强的国家认同，因为他们对其基因谱系的真实情况拥有更长期的主张。

The ethnicity of the people is far more pure in those contexts than in the United States.

在这些环境中，人们的种族比在美国要纯正得多。

So that’s the first reason.

这是第一个原因。

American exceptionalism becomes impossible.

美国例外论变得不可能。

1:33:55 The second is there’s all kinds of contradictions that then start to emerge.

第二是各种矛盾开始出现。

Your claim on American identity is defined based on how long you’ve been here.

您对美国身份的主张是根据您在这里呆了多久来定义的。

Well, then the Native Americans would have a far greater claim of being American than somebody who came here on the Mayflower or somebody who came here afterwards.

好吧，那么美洲原住民将比乘五月花号来到这里或之后来到这里的人更有资格声称自己是美国人。

Now, maybe that blood and soil view is, no, no, it’s not quite the Native Americans.

现在，也许血与土的观点是，不，不，这不完全是美洲原住民。

You only have to start at this point and end at this point.

你只需从这一点开始并在这一点结束。

So on this view of blood and soil identity, it has to be okay, you couldn’t have come before a certain year, then it doesn’t count.

所以就这个血土认同的观点来说，一定是可以的，你不可能在某一年之前来过，那就不算了。

But if you came after a certain year, it doesn’t count either.

但如果你是在某一年之后来的，那也不算数。

That just becomes highly uncompelling as a view of what American national identity actually is.

从美国民族认同的实际情况来看，这变得非常没有说服力。

1:34:32 Versus my view that American national identity is grounded on whether or not you pledge allegiance to the ideals codified in the Declaration of Independence and actualized in the US Constitution.

与我的观点相反，美国的国家认同是建立在你是否宣誓效忠《独立宣言》中规定并在美国宪法中实现的理想的基础上的。

And it’s been said, some of my friends on the right have said things like, people will not die for a set of ideals.

据说，我的一些右翼朋友说过这样的话，人们不会为了一套理想而死。

People won’t fight for abstractions or abstract ideals.

人们不会为抽象或抽象的理想而奋斗。

I actually disagree with that.

我其实不同意这一点。

The American Revolution basically disproves that.

美国革命基本上反驳了这一点。

The American Revolution was fought, for anything, over abstract ideals that said that, you know what?

美国革命是为了任何事情而进行的，是为了抽象的理想而战，你知道吗？

We believe in self-governance and free speech and free exercise of religion.

我们相信自治、言论自由和宗教信仰自由。

That’s what we believe in the United States, which is different from Old World England.

这就是我们对美国的信仰，这与旧世界的英国不同。

1:35:11 So I do think that there is this brewing debate on the right, and do I disagree like hell with Ann Coulter on this?

所以我确实认为右翼正在酝酿一场辩论，我在这一点上与安·库尔特有不同意见吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

And did I take serious issue with some of the things she told me?

我对她告诉我的一些事情有认真的看法吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

But I also believe that she had the stones to say, if I may say it that way, the things that many on the right believe but haven’t quite articulated in the way that she has.

但我也相信，如果我可以这样说的话，她有勇气说出许多右翼人士相信但没有像她那样明确表达的事情。

And I think we need to have that debate in the open.

我认为我们需要公开辩论。

1:35:35 Now, personally, I think most of the conservative movement actually is with me on this, but I think it’s become a very popular counter in the other direction to say that your vision of American identity is far more physical in nature.

现在，就我个人而言，我认为大多数保守派运动实际上在这一点上都支持我，但我认为，从另一个方向说，你对美国身份的看法本质上更加物质化，这已经成为一种非常流行的反驳。

And to me, I think it is still ideals-based in nature.

对我来说，我认为本质上仍然是基于理想的。

And I think that that’s a good debate for the future for us to have in the conservative movement.

我认为，对于我们保守派运动的未来来说，这是一场很好的辩论。

And I think it’s going to be a defining feature of what direction the conservative movement goes in the future.

我认为这将成为保守派运动未来走向的一个决定性特征。

Quick pause.

快速暂停。

1:36:02 Bathroom break?

上厕所休息？

Yeah.

是的。

Let me ask you to, again, steel man the case for and against Trump.

让我再次请你，钢铁侠支持和反对特朗普。

1:36:04 So my biggest criticism for him is the fake electors scheme, the 2020 election, and actually the 2020 election in the way you formulate it in the Nation of victims is just the entirety of that process, instead of focusing on winning, doing a lot of whining.

因此，我对他最大的批评是假选举人计划、2020 年选举，实际上，《受害者国家》中所表述的 2020 年选举只是整个过程，而不是专注于获胜，做了很多抱怨。

I like people that win, not whine, even when the refs are biased in whatever direction.

我喜欢那些获胜的人，而不是抱怨的人，即使裁判在任何方向上都有偏见。

So look, I think the United States of America, I preach this to the left, I preach it to my kids, we got to accept it on our own side too, we’re not going to save this country by being victim, we’re going to save this country by being victorious.

所以看，我认为美利坚合众国，我向左派宣讲这一点，我向我的孩子们宣讲这一点，我们自己也必须接受这一点，我们不会通过成为受害者来拯救这个国家，我们将通过胜利来拯救这个国家。

1:36:36 And I don’t care whether it’s left-wing victimhood, right-wing victimhood.

我不在乎这是左翼受害者还是右翼受害者。

I’m against victimhood culture.

我反对受害者文化。

The number one factor that determines whether you achieve something in life is you.

决定你一生能否取得成就的首要因素是你自己。

I believe that.

我相信这一点。

It’s not the only factor that matters.

这不是唯一重要的因素。

There’s a lot of other factors that affect whether or not you succeed.

还有很多其他因素会影响你是否成功。

Life is not fair, but I tell my kids the same thing.

生活是不公平的，但我也告诉我的孩子们同样的事情。

The number one factor that determines whether or not you succeed in achieving your goal is you.

决定你能否成功实现目标的第一因素是你自己。

If I tell it to my kids and I preach it to the left, I’m going to preach that to our own side as well.

如果我告诉我的孩子们，并向左派宣讲，我也会向我们自己宣扬这一点。

1:37:14 Now, that being said, that’s just a philosophy, okay?

话虽如此，这只是一种哲学，好吗？

That’s a personal philosophy.

这是个人哲学。

You asked me to do something different, and I’m always a fan.

你要求我做一些不同的事情，而我一直是你的粉丝。

The standard I hope that people hold me to when they read this book as well, is I try to do that in this book, is to give the best possible argument for the other side.

我希望人们在读这本书时也遵守我的标准，就是我在这本书中尝试做到这一点，为另一方提供尽可能最好的论据。

You don’t want to give some rinky-dink argument for the other side and knock it down.

你不想为对方提出一些无关紧要的论点，然后将其击倒。

You want to give the best possible argument for the other side and then offer your own view or else you don’t understand your own.

你想要为对方提供最好的论据，然后提出你自己的观点，否则你就无法理解自己的观点。

So you asked me what’s the strongest case against Donald Trump?

所以你问我针对唐纳德·特朗普最有力的证据是什么？

Well, I ran for US President against Donald Trump.

嗯，我竞选美国总统，对手是唐纳德·特朗普。

So I’m going to give you what my perspective is.

所以我将告诉你我的观点。

I think it’s nothing of what you hear on MSNBC or from the left attacking him to be a threat to democracy.

我认为这与你在微软全国广播公司（MSNBC）上听到的或左派攻击他对民主构成威胁的言论无关。

I think all of that’s actually nonsense.

我认为所有这些实际上都是无稽之谈。

1:37:57 I actually think it is, if you were making that case, and he has my full support as you know, but if you were making that case, I think for many voters who are of the next generation, they’re asking a question about, “How are you going to understand the position that I’m in as a member of a new generation?” The same criticism they had of Biden, they could say, “Oh, well, are you too old?

我实际上认为，如果你提出这个理由，正如你所知，他得到了我的全力支持，但如果你提出这个理由，我认为对于许多下一代选民来说，他们会问一个问题：“你将如何理解我作为新一代成员的立场？”他们对拜登的批评同样，他们可以说，“哦，好吧，你太老了吗？

Are you from a different generation that’s too far removed from my generation’s concerns?” And I think that that’s in many ways a factor that was weighing on both Trump and Biden.

你是不是和我这一代人关心的事情相差太远的不同一代人？”我认为这在很多方面都是给特朗普和拜登带来压力的一个因素。

But when they played the trick of swapping out Joe Biden, it left that issue much more on the table for Donald Trump.

但当他们耍了把戏，换掉乔·拜登时，这个问题就留给了唐纳德·特朗普。

1:38:36 So you’re asking me to steel man it, that’s what I would say is that when I look at what’s the number one issue that I would need to persuade Independent voters of to say that, no, no, no, this is still the right choice is even though the other side claims to offer a new generation of leadership, here’s somebody who is one of the older presidents we will have had who was elected.

所以你要求我坚定不移，这就是我要说的是，当我考虑我需要说服独立选民说的首要问题是什么时，他们说，不，不，不，这仍然是正确的选择，即使对方声称提供新一代领导层，这是一个我们将当选的老总统之一。

How do we convince those people to vote from?

我们如何说服这些人投票？

That’s what I would give you in that category.

这就是我在该类别中给您的内容。

Right.

正确的。

1:38:57 But I get it.

但我明白了。

And you share a lot of ideas with Donald Trump.

您与唐纳德·特朗普有很多共同的想法。

So I get when you’re…

所以我明白当你……

1:39:00 And you share a lot of ideas with Donald Trump, so I get when you’re running for president that you would say that kind of thing, but there’s other criticism you could provide, and again, on the 2020 election.

你与唐纳德·特朗普有很多共同的想法，所以我知道当你竞选总统时你会说这样的话，但你还可以提出其他批评，同样是关于 2020 年选举的批评。

Let me ask you, you spoke to Donald Trump recently, what’s your top objection to potentially voting for Donald Trump, and let me see if I can address that?

让我问你，你最近与唐纳德·特朗普交谈过，你对可能投票给唐纳德·特朗普的最大反对意见是什么，让我看看我是否可以解决这个问题？

The 2020 election, and not in the…

2020 年大选，而不是……

1:39:20 What is it?

它是什么？

TDS objection.

TDS 异议。

It’s just I don’t think there’s clear definitive evidence that there was voter fraud.

只是我认为没有明确的证据表明存在选民欺诈。

Let me ask you about a different area.

让我问你一个不同的领域。

Hold on a second.

等一下。

1:39:38 Hold on a second, hold on a second.

等一下，等一下。

I think there’s a lot of interesting topics about the influence of media, of tech, and so on, but I want a president that has a good, clear relationship with the truth and knows what truth is, what is true, and what is not true.

我认为关于媒体、科技等的影响有很多有趣的话题，但我想要一位与真相有良好、明确关系的总统，知道什么是真相、什么是真实的、什么是不真实的。

And moreover, I want a person who doesn’t play victim, like you said, who focuses on winning and winning big, and if they lose, walk away with honor and win bigger next time, or channel that into growth and winning in some other direction.

此外，我想要一个不扮演受害者的人，就像你说的那样，专注于获胜并赢得大胜利，如果他们输了，带着荣誉离开，下次赢得更大的胜利，或者将其转化为成长并在其他方向获胜。

So, just the strength of being able to give everything you got to win and walk away with honor if you lose, and everything that happened around 2020 election, it just goes against that, to me.

因此，对我来说，能够付出一切来赢得胜利并在失败时带着荣誉离开的力量，以及 2020 年选举前后发生的一切，都与此背道而驰。

So I’ll respond to that.

所以我会对此做出回应。

Sure.

当然。

Obviously, I’m not the candidate, but I’m going to give you my perspective nonetheless.

显然，我不是候选人，但我仍然会向您提供我的观点。

1:40:33 I think we have seen some growth from Donald Trump over that first term in the experience of the 2020 election, and you hear a lot of that on the campaign trail.

我认为，从 2020 年大选的经历来看，我们已经看到唐纳德·特朗普在第一个任期内取得了一些进步，而且你在竞选过程中也听到过很多这样的说法。

I heard a lot of that even in the conversation that he had with you.

即使在他与你的谈话中我也听到了很多这样的内容。

I think he is more ambitious for that second term than he was for that first term, so I thought that was the most interesting part of what you just said is, you’re looking for somebody who has growth from their own experiences.

我认为他的第二个任期比第一个任期更有雄心，所以我认为这是你刚才所说的最有趣的部分，你正在寻找一个从自己的经历中成长的人。

Say what you will, I have seen, personally I believe, some meaningful level of personal growth and ambition for what Donald Trump hopes to achieve for the country in the second term that he wasn’t able to, for one reason or another, COVID, you could put a lot of different things on it, but in that first term.

不管怎么说，我个人认为，唐纳德·特朗普希望在第二个任期内为国家实现某种有意义的个人成长和雄心，但出于某种原因，他无法做到，因为新冠肺炎，你可以在上面放很多不同的东西，但在第一个任期里。

1:41:20 Now, I think the facts of the backdrop of the 2020 election actually really do matter.

现在，我认为 2020 年选举背景的事实确实很重要。

I don’t think you can isolate one particular aspect of criticizing the 2020 election without looking at it holistically.

我认为，如果不从整体上看待它，就不能孤立地批评 2020 年选举的某一特定方面。

On the eve of the 2020 presidential election, we saw a systematic, bureaucratically, and government-aided suppression of probably the single most important piece of information released in the eve of that election, the Hunter Biden laptop story, revealing potentially a compromised US presidential candidate, his family was compromised by foreign interests, and it was suppressed as misinformation by every major tech company.

在 2020 年总统选举前夕，我们看到了对选举前夕发布的可能是最重要的一条信息（亨特·拜登笔记本电脑的故事）的系统性、官僚主义和政府协助的压制，该信息揭示了美国总统候选人可能受到损害，他的家人受到外国利益的损害，并且被各大科技公司视为错误信息进行压制。

1:42:02 The New York Post had its own Twitter account locked at that time, and we now know that many of the censorship decisions made in the year 2020 were actually made at behest of US bureaucratic actors in the deep state threatening those tech companies to do it or else those tech companies would face consequence.

当时《纽约邮报》自己的推特账户被锁定，我们现在知道，2020 年做出的许多审查决定实际上是在美国深层政府官僚行为者的要求下做出的，威胁这些科技公司这样做，否则这些科技公司将面临后果。

I think it might be the most undemocratic thing that’s happened in the history of our country, actually, is the way in which government actors, who were never elected to the government, used private sector actors to suppress information on the eve of an election that based on polling afterwards likely did influence the outcome of the 2020 presidential election.

我认为这可能是我们国家历史上发生的最不民主的事情，事实上，从未当选政府成员的政府行为者利用私营部门行为者在选举前夕压制信息，而根据事后的民意调查，这些信息可能确实影响了 2020 年总统选举的结果。

That was election interference of the highest order.

这是最高级别的选举干预。

1:42:44 So I think that that’s just a hard fact that we have to contend with, and I think a lot of what you’ve heard in terms of complaints about the 2020 election, whatever those complaints, oh, have been, take place against the backdrop of large technology companies interfering in that election in a way that I think did have an impact on the outcome.

所以我认为这是我们必须面对的一个严峻的事实，我认为你听到的很多关于 2020 年选举的抱怨，无论这些抱怨是什么，哦，都是在大型科技公司以我认为确实对结果产生影响的方式干预选举的背景下发生的。

I personally believe if the Hunter Biden laptop story had not been suppressed and censored, Donald Trump would’ve been unambiguous…

我个人认为，如果亨特·拜登笔记本电脑的故事没有受到压制和审查，唐纳德·特朗普就会毫不含糊……

The President of the United States right now would be Donald Trump.

现在的美国总统将是唐纳德·特朗普。

No doubt about it in my mind if you look at polling before and after the impact that would’ve had on the independent voter.

如果你看看民意调查前后对独立选民的影响，我心目中的这一点毫无疑问。

1:43:15 Now you look at…

现在你看看……

Okay, let’s talk about constructive solutions because I care about moving the country forward.

好吧，让我们谈谈建设性的解决方案，因为我关心推动国家前进。

What is a constructive solution to this issue of concerns about election integrity?

对于选举公正性问题的建设性解决方案是什么？

Here’s one.

这是一个。

Single-day voting on election day as a national holiday with paper ballots and government-issued voter ID to match the voter file.

在选举日（国定假日）进行单日投票，使用纸质选票和政府颁发的选民身份证来匹配选民档案。

I favor that.

我赞成这一点。

We do it even in Puerto Rico, which is a territory of the United States.

我们甚至在美国领土波多黎各也这样做。

Why not do that everywhere in the United States?

为什么不在美国各地都这样做呢？

And I’ll make a pledge.

我会做出承诺。

I’ll do it right here, right?

我就在这里做，对吗？

My pledge is, as a leader in our movement, I will do everything in my power to make sure we are done complaining about stolen elections if we get to that simple place of basic election security measures.

我的承诺是，作为我们运动的领导者，如果我们采取基本选举安全措施，我将尽我所能，确保我们不再抱怨选举被盗。

1:44:04 I think they’d be unifying too.

我认为他们也会统一。

Make election day a national holiday that unites us around our civic purpose one day, single-day voting on election day as a national holiday with paper ballots and government-issued voter ID to match the voter file.

将选举日定为全国性假日，让我们有一天能够围绕我们的公民目标团结起来，在选举日作为全国性假日进行单日投票，并使用纸质选票和政府颁发的选民身份证来与选民档案相匹配。

Let’s get there as a country, and you have my word, I will lead our movement in whatever way I can to make sure we are done complaining about stolen elections and fake ballots.

让我们作为一个国家到达那里，我向你保证，我将尽我所能领导我们的运动，以确保我们不再抱怨选举被盗和假选票。

And I think that fact that you see resistance to that proposal, which is otherwise very practical, very reasonable, nonpartisan proposal, I think the fact of that resistance actually provokes a lot of understandable skepticism, understandable skepticism of what else is actually going on, if not that, what exactly is going on here?

我认为事实上你看到了对该提案的抵制，否则该提案是非常实际的、非常合理的、无党派的提案，我认为这种抵制的事实实际上引发了很多可以理解的怀疑，对其他实际发生的事情的怀疑，如果不是这样，这里到底发生了什么？

Well, I agree with a lot of things you said.

嗯，你说的很多话我都同意。

1:44:53 Probably disagree, but it’s hard to disagree with a Hunter Biden laptop story whether that would’ve changed the results in the election.

可能不同意，但很难不同意亨特·拜登笔记本电脑的故事，这是否会改变选举结果。

We can’t know obviously.

我们显然无法知道。

Right.

正确的。

I looked at some post-election polling about the views that would’ve had and I can’t prove that to you, but that’s my instinct, it’s my opinion.

我查看了一些关于选举后观点的民意调查，我无法向你证明这一点，但这是我的直觉，这是我的观点。

I think that’s just one example, maybe a sexy example of a bias in the complex of the media and there’s bias in the other direction too, but probably there’s bias.

我认为这只是一个例子，也许是媒体复杂性中存在偏见的一个性感例子，另一个方向也存在偏见，但可能确实存在偏见。

1:45:12 It’s hard to characterize bias as one of the problems.

很难将偏见定性为问题之一。

Let me ask you one question about…

让我问你一个问题……

1:45:30 Bias is one thing, bias in reporting.

偏见是一回事，报道中存在偏见。

Censorship is another.

审查制度是另一个。

So I would be open-minded to hearing an instance, and if I did hear it, I would condemn it, of the government systematically ordering tech companies to suppress information that was favorable to Democrats, suppress that information to lift up Republicans.

因此，我愿意听到一个例子，如果我确实听到了，我会谴责它，即政府系统地命令科技公司压制有利于民主党的信息，压制这些信息以提振共和党。

If there was an instance that we know of government bureaucrats that were ordering technology companies covertly to silence information that voters otherwise would’ve had to advantage Republicans at the ballot box to censor it, I would be against that, and I would condemn that with equal force as I do to the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop story suppression, and censorship of the origin of COVID-19, all happened in 2020.

如果我们知道有这样一个例子，政府官僚暗中命令科技公司压制信息，否则选民将不得不在投票箱中对共和党有利，以对其进行审查，我会反对这种做法，并且我会以同样的力度谴责这种行为，就像我对压制亨特·拜登笔记本电脑故事和审查 COVID-19 起源一样，这一切都发生在 2020 年。

These are hard facts.

这些都是铁的事实。

I’m not aware of one instance.

我不知道有一个例子。

If you are aware of one, let me know because I would condemn it.

如果您知道其中之一，请告诉我，因为我会谴责它。

Most people in tech companies are privately…

科技公司的大多数人私下都是……

1:46:27 Their political persuasion is on the left, and most journalists, majority of journalists, are on the left, but to characterize the actual reporting and the impact of the reporting in the media and the impact of the censorship is difficult to do, but that’s a real problem, just like we talked about a real problem in immigration.

他们的政治说服力是左派，大多数记者，大多数记者，都是左派，但是要描述实际的报道以及媒体报道的影响和审查制度的影响是很难做到的，但这是一个真正的问题，就像我们谈到移民方面的一个真正问题一样。

But there’s two different problems, I just want to sort them out, right?

但有两个不同的问题，我只是想解决它们，对吧？

1:46:54 I have problem with both.

我两者都有问题。

You talked about two issues, and I think both are important, but they’re different issues.

你谈到了两个问题，我认为都很重要，但它们是不同的问题。

One is bias in reporting.

一是报道存在偏见。

One is censorship of information.

一是信息审查。

So bias in reporting, I felt certainly, the recent presidential debate moderated by ABC was biased in the way that it was conducted, but that’s a different issue from saying that voters don’t get access to information through any source.

因此，报道中存在偏见，我当然认为，美国广播公司最近主持的总统辩论在其进行方式上存在偏见，但这与说选民无法通过任何来源获取信息是不同的问题。

1:47:23 So, this Hunter Biden laptop story, we now know that it contains evidence of foreign interference in potentially the Biden administration and their family’s incentive structure.

因此，关于亨特·拜登笔记本电脑的故事，我们现在知道它包含外国潜在干预拜登政府及其家族激励结构的证据。

That story was systematically suppressed.

这个故事被系统地压制了。

So, in the United States of America, if you wanted to find that on the internet through any major social media platform or through even Google search, that story was suppressed or downplayed algorithmically that you couldn’t see it.

因此，在美利坚合众国，如果你想通过任何主要的社交媒体平台甚至通过谷歌搜索在互联网上找到这个故事，这个故事会被算法压制或淡化，你看不到它。

Even on Twitter, if you tried to send it via direct message, the equivalent of email, sending a peer-to-peer message, they blocked you from even being able to send that story using private messages.

即使在 Twitter 上，如果您尝试通过直接消息（相当于电子邮件）发送点对点消息来发送消息，他们也会阻止您使用私人消息发送该故事。

That is a different level of concern.

这是不同程度的担忧。

That’s not bias at that point.

在这一点上这并不是偏见。

That’s outright interference in the election.

这是对选举的公然干预。

1:48:13 Let’s do a thought experiment here.

我们在这里做一个思想实验。

Let’s suppose that Russia orchestrated that.

我们假设这是俄罗斯精心策划的。

What would the backlash be?

会有什么反弹？

Let’s say the Russian government orchestrated the US election.

假设俄罗斯政府策划了美国大选。

They interfered in it by saying that tech companies…

他们干预说科技公司......

They worked with them covertly to stop US citizens from being able to see information on the eve of an election.

他们秘密地与他们合作，阻止美国公民在选举前夕看到信息。

There would be a mass uproar in this country if the Russian government orchestrated that.

如果俄罗斯政府精心策划的话，这个国家将会引起大规模骚动。

Well, if actors in the US government bureaucracy or the US technology industry bureaucracy orchestrated the same thing, then we can’t apply a different standard to say that if Russia did it, it’s really bad and interfered in our election.

好吧，如果美国政府官僚机构或美国科技行业官僚机构的行为者策划了同样的事情，那么我们就不能应用不同的标准来说，如果俄罗斯这样做了，那就真的很糟糕并且干扰了我们的选举。

But if it happened right here in the United States of America…

但如果这件事发生在美利坚合众国……

And by the way, they blamed Russia for it, falsely, on the Russian disinformation of the Hunter Biden laptop story that was a false claim.

顺便说一句，他们错误地将此事归咎于俄罗斯，因为俄罗斯对亨特·拜登笔记本电脑故事的虚假信息是虚假的。

We have to apply the same standard in both cases, and so the fact that if that were Russian interference, it would’ve been an outcry, but now it happened domestically, and we just call that, “Hey, it’s a little bit of bias ahead of an election.” I don’t think that that’s a fair characterization of how important that event was.

我们必须在这两种情况下采用相同的标准，因此，事实上，如果这是俄罗斯的干涉，那将会引起强烈抗议，但现在它发生在国内，我们只是称之为，“嘿，这是选举前的一点偏见。”我认为这并不能公平地描述该事件的重要性。

Okay, so the connection of government to platform should not exist.

好吧，所以政府与平台的联系不应该存在。

1:49:11 The government, FBI, or anybody else should not be able to pressure platforms to censor information.

政府、联邦调查局或任何其他人不应向平台施加压力，要求其审查信息。

Yes, we could talk about Pavel Durov and the censorship there.

是的，我们可以谈论帕维尔·杜罗夫和那里的审查制度。

There should not be any censorship, and there should not be media bias, and you’re right to complain if there is media bias, and we can lay it out in the open and try to fix that system.

不应该有任何审查制度，也不应该有媒体偏见，如果存在媒体偏见，你抱怨是正确的，我们可以将其公开并尝试修复该系统。

That said, the voter fraud thing, you can’t right a wrong by doing another wrong.

也就是说，在选民欺诈问题上，你不能通过犯另一个错误来纠正一个错误。

If there’s some shitty shady stuff going on in the media and the censorship complex, you can’t just make shit up.

如果媒体和审查机构中发生了一些肮脏的阴暗事情，你就不能胡编乱造。

You can’t do the fake electors scheme, and then do a lot of shady, crappy behavior during January 6th and try to shortcut your way just because your friend is cheating at Monopoly when you’re playing Monopoly.

你不能实施假选举人计划，然后在 1 月 6 日期间做出很多阴暗、蹩脚的行为，并试图走捷径，仅仅因为你的朋友在玩大富翁时在大富翁中作弊。

You can’t cheat.

你不能作弊。

You shouldn’t cheat yourself.

你不应该欺骗自己。

You should be honest and with honor and use your platform to help fix the system versus cheat your way.

您应该诚实且有荣誉感，并使用您的平台来帮助修复系统，而不是欺骗您。

So, here’s my view, has any US politician ever been perfect throughout the course of American history?

那么，我的观点是，在美国历史上，有哪位美国政客是完美的呢？

1:50:21 No, but if you want to understand the essence of what was going around in 2020, the mindset of the country?

不，但如果你想了解2020年发生的事情的本质，国家的心态？

We had a year where people in this country were systematically locked down, told to shut up, sit down, do as they’re told unless they’re BLM or Antifa rioters, in which case it’s perfectly fine for them to burn cities down.

这一年，这个国家的人们被系统性地封锁，被告知要闭嘴、坐下来、按照指示行事，除非他们是 BLM 或 Antifa 暴徒，在这种情况下，他们烧毁城市是完全可以的。

We were told that we’re going to have an election, a free and fair election, and then they were denied information systematically heading into that election, which was really important, and in this case, damning information about one of the parties.

我们被告知我们将举行一次选举，一场自由公正的选举，然后他们被系统性地拒绝提供进入选举的信息，这非常重要，在这种情况下，他们无法获得有关其中一个政党的该死的信息。

And then you tell these people that they still have to continue to shut up and comply.

然后你告诉这些人，他们仍然必须继续闭嘴并遵守。

That creates, I think, a real culture of deep frustration in the United States of America.

我认为，这在美利坚合众国创造了一种真正令人沮丧的文化。

1:51:08 And I think that the reaction to systematic censorship is never good.

我认为对系统审查制度的反应从来都不好。

History teaches us that it’s not good in the United States.

历史告诉我们，美国的情况并不好。

It’s not good in other points in the history of the United States.

美国历史上的其他方面都不好。

The reaction to systematic, coordinated censorship and restraints and the freedom of a free people is never good.

对系统性、协调性的审查和限制以及自由人民的自由的反应从来都不是好的。

And if you want to really understand what happened, one really wants to get to the bottom of it rather than figuring out who to point fingers at, that really was the essence of the national malaise at the end of 2020 is, it was a year of unjust policies including COVID-19 lockdowns, systematic lies about it, lies about the election that created a level of public frustration that I think was understandable.

如果你想真正了解发生了什么，人们真的想追根究底，而不是弄清楚该指责谁，这确实是 2020 年底全国不适的本质，这一年是不公正政策的一年，包括 COVID-19 封锁、有关它的系统性谎言、有关选举的谎言，这些谎言造成了一定程度的公众挫败感，我认为这是可以理解的。

1:51:53 Now, the job of leaders is to how do you channel that in the most productive direction possible, and to your question, to the independent voter out there evaluating, as you are, do I think that Donald Trump has exhibited a lot of growth based on his experience in his first term, and what he hopes to achieve in his second term?

现在，领导人的工作是如何将其引导到尽可能最有成效的方向，以及你的问题，向那里的独立选民评估，就像你一样，我认为唐纳德·特朗普根据他在第一个任期的经历以及他希望在第二个任期实现的目标是否表现出很大的成长？

The answer is, absolutely yes, and so, even if you don’t agree with everything that he’s said or done in the choice ahead of us in this election, I still believe he’s unambiguously the best choice to revive that sense of national pride, and also prosperity in our country, so people aren’t in the condition where they’re suffering at behest of government policies that leave them angry and channel that anger in other unproductive ways.

答案是，绝对是的，所以，即使你不同意他在这次选举中我们面前的选择中所说或所做的一切，我仍然相信他无疑是重振民族自豪感和我们国家繁荣的最佳选择，这样人们就不会处于这样的境地：他们在政府政策的要求下遭受苦难，这些政策让他们感到愤怒，并以其他非生产性的方式发泄愤怒。

No, the best way to do it is actually, actions do speak louder than words, implement the policies that make people’s lives better, and I do think that that’s the next step of how we best save the country.

不，最好的办法实际上是，行动胜于雄辩，落实让人民生活更美好的政策，我确实认为这就是我们下一步最好的救国之道。

Are you worried if in this election, it’s a close election, and Donald Trump loses by a whisker, that there’s chaos that’s unleashed, and how do we minimize the chance of that?

您是否担心，如果在这次选举中，这是一场势均力敌的选举，而唐纳德·特朗普以微弱优势落败，就会引发混乱，我们如何才能最大限度地减少这种可能性？

I don’t think that that’s a concern to frame narrowly in the context of Donald Trump winning it or losing it by whisker, this is a man, who in the last couple of months, in span of two months, has faced two assassination attempts.

我不认为这是狭隘地考虑唐纳德·特朗普获胜或失败的问题，这个人在过去的几个月里，在两个月的时间里，面临着两次暗杀企图。

1:53:03 We’re not talking about theoretical attempts.

我们不是在谈论理论上的尝试。

We’re talking about gunshots fired.

我们正在谈论枪击事件。

That is history changing in the context of American history.

这是美国历史背景下的历史变化。

We haven’t seen that in a generation, and yet now that has become normalized in the US, so do I worry we’re skating on thin ice as a country?

我们已经有一代人没有看到这种情况了，但现在这在美国已经成为常态，所以我是否担心我们作为一个国家如履薄冰？

I do.

我愿意。

I do think it is a little bit strange to obsess over our concerns, national or media concerns, over Donald Trump when, in fact, he’s the one on the receiving end of fire from assailants who reportedly are saying exactly the things about him that you hear from the Democratic machine.

我确实认为，沉迷于我们对唐纳德·特朗普的担忧、国家或媒体的担忧有点奇怪，而事实上，他是袭击者的攻击者，据报道，袭击者所说的正是你从民主党机器中听到的关于他的事情。

1:53:58 And I do think that it is irresponsible, at least for the Democratic Party to make their core case against Donald Trump.

我确实认为这是不负责任的，至少对于民主党来说，他们的核心理由是反对唐纳德·特朗普。

It was Joe Biden’s entire message for years that he’s a threat to democracy and to the existence of America.

乔·拜登多年来传达的全部信息是，他对民主和美国的存在构成威胁。

Well, if you keep saying that about somebody against the backdrop conditions that we live in as a country, I don’t think that’s good for a nation.

好吧，如果你在我们作为一个国家生活的背景条件下一直这样说某人，我认为这对一个国家来说不是好事。

And so, do I have concerns about the future of the country?

那么，我对国家的未来有担忧吗？

Do I think we’re skating on thin ice?

我认为我们是如履薄冰吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

And I think the best way around it is really through it, through it in this election, win by a landslide.

我认为解决这个问题的最好办法就是真正通过它，通过它在这次选举中以压倒性优势获胜。

I think a unifying landslide could be the best thing that happens for this country, like Reagan delivered in 1980 and then again in 1984.

我认为统一压倒性胜利可能是这个国家发生的最好的事情，就像里根在 1980 年和 1984 年所做的那样。

And in a very practical note, a landslide minus some shenanigans, is still going to be a victory.

从非常实际的角度来看，减去一些恶作剧的压倒性胜利仍然将是一场胜利。

That is how we unite this country.

这就是我们团结这个国家的方式。

1:54:46 And so, I don’t think 50.001 margin where cable news is declaring the winner six days after the election, I don’t think that’s going to be good for the country.

因此，我不认为有线电视新闻在选举后六天就以 50.001 的优势宣布获胜者，我不认为这对国家有好处。

I think a decisive victory that unites the country, turns the page on a lot of the challenges of the last four years, and says, “Okay, this is where we’re going.

我认为一场决定性的胜利将全国团结起来，翻开过去四年的许多挑战的一页，并说：“好吧，这就是我们要去的地方。

This is who we are, and what we stand for.” This is a revival of our national identity and revive national pride in the United States regardless of whether you’re a Democrat or Republican.

这就是我们，也是我们的立场。”无论您是民主党人还是共和党人，这都是我们国家认同的复兴，并重振美国的民族自豪感。

That I think is achievable in this election too, and that’s the outcome I’m rooting for.

我认为这在这次选举中也是可以实现的，这就是我支持的结果。

So just to pile on, since we’re still manning the criticism against Trump, is the rhetoric…

因此，由于我们仍在对特朗普进行批评，所以只是继续说下去……

1:55:19 I wish there was less of, although at times it is so ridiculous, it is entertaining, I hate Taylor Swift type of tweets or truths or whatever.

我希望少一些，虽然有时很荒谬，但很有趣，我讨厌泰勒·斯威夫特类型的推文或真相或其他什么。

I don’t think that’s-

我不认为那是——

He’s a funny guy.

他是一个有趣的人。

1:55:42 The reality is different people have different attributes.

现实是不同的人有不同的属性。

One of the attributes for Donald Trump is, he’s one of the funnier presidents we’ve had in a long time.

唐纳德·特朗普的特点之一是，他是我们长期以来遇到的最有趣的总统之一。

That might not be everybody’s cup of tea.

这可能不是每个人都喜欢的。

Maybe different people don’t want…

也许不同的人不想要...

That’s not a quality they value in their president.

这不是他们看重总统的品质。

I think at a moment where you’re also able to make…

我认为此刻你也能够……

I will say this much is, everybody’s got different styles.

我就说这么多吧，每个人都有不同的风格。

Donald Trump’s style is different from mine.

唐纳德·特朗普的风格与我的不同。

But I do think that if we’re able to use levity in a moment of national division, in some ways, I think right now is probably a role where really good standup comedians could probably do a big service to the country if they’re able to laugh at everybody 360 degrees, so they can go up there and make fun of Donald Trump all they want, do it in a lighthearted manner that loves the country, do the same thing to Kamala Harris with an equal standard.

但我确实认为，如果我们能够在国家分裂的时刻使用轻松的方式，在某种程度上，我认为现在可能是一个真正优秀的单口喜剧演员可能为国家做出巨大贡献的角色，如果他们能够360度嘲笑每个人，这样他们就可以去那里随心所欲地取笑唐纳德·特朗普，以一种热爱国家的轻松方式做到这一点，以平等的标准对卡马拉·哈里斯做同样的事情。

I think that’s actually good for the country.

我认为这实际上对国家有利。

But I think I’m more interested, Lex, as you know, in discussing the future direction of the country, my own views.

但我想我更感兴趣，莱克斯，正如你所知，讨论国家的未来方向，我自己的观点。

I was a presidential candidate who ran against Donald Trump, by the way, and is supporting him now.

顺便说一句，我是一名总统候选人，曾与唐纳德·特朗普竞选，现在支持他。

But I just prefer engaging on the substance of what I think each candidate’s going to achieve for the country rather than picking on really the personal attributes of either one, right?

但我只是更喜欢谈论我认为每位候选人将为国家实现的实质内容，而不是真正挑选任何一位候选人的个人特质，对吧？

I’m not criticizing Kamala Harris’s manner of laugh, or whatever one might criticize as a personal attribute of hers that you may hear elsewhere.

我并不是在批评卡马拉·哈里斯的笑声，也不是在批评她的个人特质，你可能在其他地方听到过这种批评。

And I just think our country’s better off if we have a focus on both the policies, but also, who’s going to be more likely to revive the country, that I think is a healthy debate headed to an election.

我只是认为，如果我们既关注这两项政策，又关注谁更有可能重振国家，我们的国家就会变得更好，我认为这是一场走向选举的健康辩论。

Everybody has their personality attributes, their flaws, what makes them funny and lovable to some people, makes them irritating to others, I think that that matters less heading into an election.

每个人都有自己的性格特征，他们的缺点，是什么让他们对某些人来说有趣和可爱，让他们激怒其他人，我认为这在选举中就不那么重要了。

I love that you do that.

我喜欢你这样做。

1:57:22 I love that you focus on policy and can speak for hours on policy.

我喜欢您专注于政策并且可以就政策发表数小时的演讲。

Let’s look at foreign policy.

我们来看看外交政策。

Sure.

当然。

What kind of peace deal do you think is possible, feasible, optimal in Ukraine?

您认为在乌克兰什么样的和平协议是可能的、可行的、最佳的？

1:57:30 If you sat down, you became president.

如果你坐下来，你就成为总统。

If you sat down with Zelenskyy and sat down with Putin, what do you think is possible to talk to them about?

如果你与泽连斯基和普京坐下来，你认为可以与他们谈论什么？

One of the hilarious things you did, which were intense and entertaining, your debates in the primary, but anyway, is how you outgrow the other candidates that didn’t know any regions.

你所做的一件搞笑的事情是，你在初选时的辩论既激烈又有趣，但无论如何，你是如何超越其他不了解任何地区的候选人的。

They wanted to send money and troops, and lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and they didn’t know any of the regions in Ukraine.

他们想要送钱、送兵，导致数十万人死亡，而且他们对乌克兰的任何一个地区都不了解。

You had a lot of zingers in that one.

你那一集里有很多有趣的东西。

But anyway, how do you think about negotiating with world leaders about what’s going on there?

但无论如何，您如何看待与世界领导人就那里正在发生的事情进行谈判？

Yeah, so look, let’s just get the self-interest of each party on the table, and to be very transparent about it.

是的，所以，让我们把各方的自身利益摆在桌面上，并保持透明。

1:58:17 From everyone’s perspective, they think the other side is the aggressor, or whatever.

从每个人的角度来看，他们都认为对方是侵略者，或者其他什么。

Just get it on the table.

只要把它放在桌子上就可以了。

Russia is concerned about NATO shifting the balance of power away from Russia to Western Europe when NATO has expanded far more than they expected to, and frankly, that Russia was told that NATO was going to expand.

俄罗斯担心北约将力量平衡从俄罗斯转移到西欧，因为北约的扩张远远超出了他们的预期，坦率地说，俄罗斯被告知北约将要扩张。

It’s an uncomfortable fact for some in America, but James Baker made a commitment to Mikhail Gorbachev in the early nineties, where he said NATO would expand not one inch past East Germany.

对于美国的一些人来说，这是一个令人不安的事实，但詹姆斯·贝克在九十年代初向米哈伊尔·戈尔巴乔夫做出了承诺，他表示北约的扩张不会超出东德一英寸。

Well, NATO has expanded far more after the fall of the USSR than it did during the existence of the USSR, and that is a reality we have to contend with.

嗯，苏联解体后北约的扩张远远超过苏联存在期间的规模，这是我们必须面对的现实。

That’s the Russian perspective.

这就是俄罗斯的观点。

1:59:05 From the Western perspective, the hard fact is Russia was the aggressor in this conflict, crossing the boundaries of a sovereign nation, and that is a violation of international norms, and it’s a violation of the recognition of international law of nations without borders are not a nation.

从西方的角度来看，铁的事实是俄罗斯是这场冲突的侵略者，跨越了一个主权国家的边界​​，这违反了国际准则，也违反了国际法对无国界国家不是一个国家的承认。

And so, against that backdrop, what’s the actual interest of each country here?

那么，在此背景下，各国的实际利益是什么？

I think if we’re able to do a reasonable deal that gives Russia the assurances it needs about what they might allege as NATO expansionism violating prior commitments, but get codified commitments for Russia, that we’re not going to see willy-nilly behavior of just randomly deciding they’re going to violate the sovereignty of neighboring nations and have hard assurances and consequences for that.

我认为，如果我们能够达成一项合理的协议，为俄罗斯提供所需的保证，让俄罗斯能够声称北约扩张主义违反了先前的承诺，但又为俄罗斯做出了成文的承诺，那么我们就不会看到随意决定他们将侵犯邻国主权并为此承担硬性保证和后果的随意行为。

That’s the beginnings of a deal.

这就是交易的开始。

1:59:49 But then, I want to be ambitious for the United States.

但接下来，我想为美国雄心勃勃。

I want to weaken the Russia-China alliance, and I think that we can do a deal that requires, that gives some real gifts to Russia conditioned on Russia withdrawing itself from its military alliance with China.

我想削弱俄中联盟，我认为我们可以达成一项协议，向俄罗斯提供一些真正的礼物，条件是俄罗斯退出与中国的军事联盟。

And this could be good for Russia too, in the long run, because right now, Vladimir Putin does not enjoy being Xi Jinping’s little brother in that relationship.

从长远来看，这对俄罗斯也有好处，因为目前弗拉基米尔·普京不喜欢在两国关系中成为习近平的小兄弟。

But Russia’s military combined with China’s naval capacity, and Russia’s hypersonic missiles, and China’s economic might, together those countries in an alliance pose a real threat to the United States.

但俄罗斯的军事力量与中国的海军能力、俄罗斯的高超音速导弹以及中国的经济实力相结合，这些国家结成联盟，对美国构成了真正的威胁。

But if as a condition for a reasonable discussion about where different territories land, given what’s occupied right now, hard requirements that Russia remove its military presence from the Western hemisphere.

但如果作为合理讨论不同领土登陆地点的条件，考虑到目前的占领情况，就硬性要求俄罗斯从西半球撤走其军事存在。

People forget this, Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, we don’t want a Russian military presence in the Western hemisphere.

人们忘记了这一点，古巴、委内瑞拉、尼加拉瓜，我们不希望俄罗斯在西半球驻军。

That too, would be a win for the United States, no more joint military exercises with China off the coast of the Aleutian Islands.

这对美国来说也将是一场胜利，不再与中国在阿留申群岛沿岸举行联合军事演习。

2:00:50 The kinds of wins that the United States wants to protect the West’s security, get Russia out of the Western hemisphere, certainly out of the North American periphery, and then also make sure that Russia’s no longer in that military alliance with China, in return for that, able to provide Russia some things that are important to Russia.

美国希望取得这样的胜利，保护西方的安全，让俄罗斯退出西半球，当然是退出北美外围地区，然后确保俄罗斯不再与中国结成军事联盟，作为回报，能够向俄罗斯提供一些对俄罗斯重要的东西。

We’d have to have a reasonable discussion about what the territorial concessions would be at the end of this war to bring it to peace and resolution and what the guarantees are to make sure that NATO is going to not expand beyond the scope of what the United States has at least historically guaranteed.

我们必须就这场战争结束时做出哪些领土让步以实现和平和解决问题进行合理的讨论，以及提供哪些保证来确保北约的扩张不会超出美国至少在历史上所保证的范围。

That I think together would be a reasonable deal that gives every party what they’re looking for, that results in immediate peace, that results in greater stability, and most importantly, weakening the Russia-China Alliance, which I think is the actual threat that we have so far, no matter who in this debate of more or less Ukraine funding has really failed to confront, that I think is the way we de-escalate the risk of World War III, and weaken the threats to the West by actually dismantling that alliance.

我认为，这将是一项合理的协议，能够满足各方的需求，立即实现和平，带来更大的稳定性，最重要的是，削弱俄中联盟，我认为这是我们迄今为止所面临的实际威胁，无论在这场关于乌克兰资金增加或减少的辩论中谁真正未能对抗，我认为这是我们降低第三次世界大战风险的方式，并通过实际解散该联盟来削弱对西方的威胁。

So from the American perspective, the main interest is weakening the alliance between Russia and China.

因此从美国的角度来看，主要利益是削弱俄罗斯和中国之间的联盟。

Yes, I think the military alliance between Russia and China represents the single greatest threat we face.

是的，我认为俄罗斯和中国之间的军事联盟是我们面临的最大威胁。

2:01:57 So, do a deal that’s very reasonable across the board but one of the main things we get out of it is weakening that alliance, so no joint military exercises, no military collaborations.

因此，达成一项全面合理的协议，但我们从中得到的主要结果之一是削弱联盟，因此没有联合军事演习，没有军事合作。

These are monitorable attributes.

这些是可监控的属性。

If there’s cheating on that, we’re going to immediately have consequences as a consequence of their cheating.

如果存在作弊行为，我们将立即承担他们作弊行为的后果。

But we can’t cheat on our own obligations that we would make in the context of that deal as well.

但我们也不能欺骗我们在该交易中所承担的义务。

There might be some extremely painful things for Ukraine here.

对于乌克兰来说，这里可能会发生一些极其痛苦的事情。

2:02:27 So Ukraine currently captured a small region in Russia, the Kursk region, but Russia has captured giant chunks, Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson regions, so it seems given what you’re laying out, it’s very unlikely for Russia to give up any other regions that’s already captured.

因此，乌克兰目前占领了俄罗斯的一小部分地区，即库尔斯克地区，但俄罗斯已经占领了大片地区，顿涅茨克、卢甘斯克、赫尔松地区，因此，鉴于你所布局的情况，俄罗斯不太可能放弃任何其他已经占领的地区。

I actually think that that would come down to the specifics of the negotiation.

我实际上认为这将取决于谈判的具体细节。

2:02:49 But the core goals of the negotiation are peace in this war, weaken the Russia-China Alliance.

但谈判的核心目标是在这场战争中实现和平，削弱俄中联盟。

And for Russia, what do they get out of it?

对于俄罗斯来说，他们能从中得到什么？

Part of this is…

其中一部分是……

Here’s something that’s not negative for Ukraine but that could be positive for Russia as part of that deal because it’s not a zero-sum game alone with Ukraine on the losing end of this.

这对乌克兰来说并不是负面的，但作为该协议的一部分，对俄罗斯可能是积极的，因为这并不是一场零和游戏，乌克兰在这场游戏中输了。

I think reopening economic relations with the West would be a big win for Russia, but also a carrot that gets them out of that military relationship with China.

我认为重新开放与西方的经济关系对俄罗斯来说是一个巨大的胜利，也是让他们摆脱与中国的军事关系的胡萝卜。

So I do think that the foreign policy establishment has historically been, at the very least, unimaginative about the levers that we’re able to use.

因此，我确实认为，从历史上看，外交政策机构至少对我们能够使用的杠杆缺乏想象力。

2:03:27 Actually, I was a little bit critical of Nixon earlier in this discussion for his contribution to the overgrowth of the US entitlement state and regulatory state, but I’ll give Nixon credit here on a different point, which is that he was imaginative of being able to pull red China out from the clasp of the USSR.

事实上，我在早些时候的讨论中批评了尼克松对美国权利国家和监管国家过度增长的贡献，但我在这里要赞扬尼克松的另一个观点，那就是他富有想象力，能够将红色中国从苏联的束缚中拉出来。

He broke the China-Russia alliance back then, which was an important step to bring us to the near end of the Cold War.

他当年打破了中俄同盟，这是冷战即将结束的重要一步。

So I think there’s an opportunity for similar unconventional maneuver now of using greater reopened economic relations with Russia to pull Russia out from the hands of China today.

因此，我认为现在有机会采取类似的非常规策略，利用与俄罗斯重新开放的经济关系，将俄罗斯从中国手中拉出来。

There’s no skin off Ukraine’s back for that, and I do think that’s a big carrot for Russia in this direction.

乌克兰对此没有任何顾虑，我确实认为这对俄罗斯来说是一个大胡萝卜。

I do think that will involve some level of territorial negotiation as well, that out of any good deal, not everyone’s going to like a hundred percent of what comes out of it, but that’s part of the cost of securing peace is that not everyone’s going to be happy about every attribute.

我确实认为这也会涉及一定程度的领土谈判，在任何一笔好交易中，并不是每个人都会百分百地喜欢它所产生的结果，但确保和平的成本的一部分是，并不是每个人都会对每一个属性都感到高兴。

2:04:19 But I could make a case that an immediate peace deal is also now in the best interest of Ukraine.

但我可以证明，立即达成和平协议现在也符合乌克兰的最佳利益。

Let’s just rewind the clock.

让我们把时钟倒回吧。

We’re looking at now, let’s just say we’re early 2022, maybe June of 2022, Zelenskyy was ready to come to the table for a deal back then until Boris Johnson traveled when he had his own domestic political travails to convince Zelenskyy to continue to fight.

我们现在正在考虑，假设我们是 2022 年初，也许是 2022 年 6 月，当时泽伦斯基已经准备好坐下来达成协议，直到鲍里斯·约翰逊出差，当时他也经历了国内政治阵痛，说服泽伦斯基继续战斗。

And that goes to the point where when nations aren’t asked to pay for their own national security, they have what the problem is of moral hazard, of taking risks that really are suboptimal risks for them to take because they’re not bearing the consequences of taking those risks, not fully in the cost.

到了这种程度，当国家不被要求为自己的国家安全买单时，他们就会面临道德风险的问题，承担对他们来说实际上是次优风险的风险，因为他们没有承担承担这些风险的后果，也没有完全承担成本。

2:04:57 If Ukraine had done a deal back then, I think it is unambiguous that they would’ve done a better deal for themselves than they’re doing now after having spent hundreds of billions of dollars and expended tens of thousands of Ukrainian lives.

如果乌克兰当时达成协议，我认为毫无疑问，在花费了数千亿美元并牺牲了数万乌克兰人的生命之后，他们会为自己做出比现在更好的协议。

So the idea that Ukraine is somehow better off because it failed to do that deal before is a lie.

因此，认为乌克兰因为之前未能达成该协议而变得更好的想法是一个谎言。

And if we’re not willing to learn from those mistakes of the recent past, we’re doomed to repeat them again.

如果我们不愿意从最近的错误中吸取教训，我们注定会再次重蹈覆辙。

So, this idea that it would be painful for Ukraine, you know what’s been painful, tens and tens and tens of thousands of people continuing to die without any increased leverage in actually getting the outcome that they want.

因此，这种想法对乌克兰来说将是痛苦的，你知道什么是痛苦，成千上万的人继续死亡，而没有任何增加的影响力来实际获得他们想要的结果。

2:05:36 So, I think there’s an opportunity for a win-win-win, a win for the United States and the West more broadly in weakening the Russia-China alliance, a win for Ukraine in having an agreement that is backstopped by the United States of America’s interests that provides a greater degree of long-run security to the future existence of Ukraine and its sovereignty and also stopping the bloodshed today.

因此，我认为这是一个双赢的机会，美国和西方更广泛地削弱了俄中联盟，乌克兰赢得了一项得到美国利益支持的协议，该协议为乌克兰的未来存在及其主权提供了更大程度的长期安全，并制止了今天的流血事件。

And I think a win for Russia which is to reopen economic relations with the West and have certain guarantees about what the mission-creep or scop-creep of NATO will be.

我认为俄罗斯的胜利是与西方重新开放经济关系，并对北约的任务蔓延或范围蔓延有一定的保证。

There’s no rule that says that when one party, before full outright World War, starts at least, there’s an opportunity for there to actually be a win for everybody on the table rather than to assume that a win for us is a loss to Russia, or that anything positive that happens for Russia is a loss for the United States or Ukraine.

没有任何规则规定，至少在全面彻底的世界大战之前，当一方开始时，谈判桌上的每个人都有机会真正获胜，而不是假设我们的胜利对俄罗斯来说是损失，或者对俄罗斯发生的任何积极的事情对美国或乌克兰来说都是损失。

Just to add to the table some things that Putin won’t like, but I think are possible to negotiate, which is Ukraine joining the European Union and not NATO, so establishing some economic relationships there, and also splitting the bill, guaranteeing some amount of money from both the Russia and the United States for rebuilding Ukraine.

只是想在桌面上添加一些普京不喜欢的事情，但我认为可以进行谈判，那就是乌克兰加入欧盟而不是北约，因此在那里建立一些经济关系，并分摊账单，保证俄罗斯和美国提供一定数量的资金用于重建乌克兰。

2:06:25 One of the challenges in Ukraine, a war-torn country, is how do you guarantee the flourishing of this particular nation, right?

乌克兰这个饱受战争蹂躏的国家面临的挑战之一是如何保证这个特定国家的繁荣，对吗？

So, you want to not just stop the death of people and the destruction but also provide a foundation on which you can rebuild the country and build a flourishing future country.

因此，您不仅要阻止人员死亡和破坏，还要为重建国家和建设繁荣的未来国家奠定基础。

Out of this conversation alone, there are a number of levers on the table for negotiation in a lot of different directions, and that’s where you want to be, if there’s only one factor that matters to each of the two parties, and those are their red line factors, then there’s no room for negotiation.

仅从这次对话来看，桌面上就有许多不同方向的谈判杠杆，这就是你想要的，如果只有一个因素对双方都重要，而且是他们的红线因素，那么就没有谈判的空间。

2:07:11 This is a deeply complicated, historically intricate dynamic between Ukraine and Russia, and between NATO and the United States, and the Russia-China Alliance, and economic interests that are at issue combined with the geopolitical factors.

这是乌克兰与俄罗斯之间、北约与美国之间、俄中联盟之间、经济利益与地缘政治因素相结合的复杂历史动态。

There are a lot of levers for negotiation, and the more levers there are, the more likely there is to be a win-win-win deal that gets done for everybody.

谈判的手段有很多，手段越多，就越有可能达成对每个人都有利的双赢协议。

2:07:56 So I think it should be encouraging the fact that there are as many different possible levers here, almost makes certain that a reasonable practicable peace deal as possible in contrast to situation where there’s only one thing that matters for each side, then I can’t tell you that there’s a deal to be done, there’s definitely a deal to be done here, and I think that it requires real leadership in the United States playing hardball, not just with one side of this, not just with Zelenskyy or with Putin, but across the board hardball for our own interest, which are the interests of stability here, and that that will happen to well serve both Ukraine and Russia in the process.

因此，我认为令人鼓舞的事实是，这里有尽可能多的不同可能的手段，几乎可以肯定，与只有一件事对双方都重要的情况相比，达成合理可行的和平协议是可能的，然后我不能告诉你有一项协议需要完成，这里肯定有一项协议需要完成，而且我认为这需要美国真正的领导力采取强硬态度，不仅是与一方，不仅是与泽连斯基或普京，而是在整个世界董事会为了我们自己的利益而采取强硬态度，这也是这里稳定的利益，并且在此过程中这将恰好有利于乌克兰和俄罗斯。

If you were president, would you call Putin?

如果你是总统，你会打电话给普京吗？

Absolutely, in any negotiation, you got to manage when you’re calling somebody and when you’re not, but I do believe that open conversation and the willingness to have that as another lever in the negotiation is totally fair game.

当然，在任何谈判中，你都必须管理好何时给某人打电话，何时不打电话，但我确实相信，公开对话以及愿意将其作为谈判中的另一个杠杆是完全公平的游戏。

Okay, let’s go to the China side of this.

好吧，让我们看看中国这边。

2:08:43 The big concern here is that the brewing cold, or God forbid, hot war between the United States and China and the 21st century.

这里最令人担忧的是美国和中国以及21世纪之间正在酝酿的冷战，或者上帝禁止的热战。

How do we avoid that?

我们如何避免这种情况？

So a few things.

所以有几件事。

2:08:59 One is, I do think, the best way we also avoid it is by reducing the consequences to the United States in the event of that type of conflict because, at that point, what you’re setting up for, if the consequences are existential for the United States, then what you’re buying yourself in the context of what could be a small conflict is an all-out great war.

我确实认为，我们避免这种情况的最好方法是减少发生此类冲突时对美国造成的后果，因为到那时，如果后果对美国来说是生死攸关的，那么你在一场可能是小冲突的背景下为自己买的就是一场全面的大战。

So, the first thing I want to make sure we avoid is a major conflict between the United States and China, like a world-war-level conflict.

因此，我要确保我们避免的第一件事是美国和中国之间发生重大冲突，比如世界大战级别的冲突。

And the way to do that is to bring down the existential stakes for the US.

而做到这一点的方法就是降低美国的生存风险。

And the way we bring down the existential stakes for the US, is make sure that the United States does not depend on China for our modern way of life.

我们降低美国生存风险的方法是确保美国的现代生活方式不依赖中国。

2:09:41 Right now, we do, okay, so right now, we depend on China for everything from the pharmaceuticals in our medicine cabinet, 95% of ibuprofen, one of the most basic medicines used in the United States, depends on China for its supply chain.

现在，我们做到了，好吧，所以现在，我们的一切都依赖中国，从我们药柜里的药品，95%的布洛芬，美国使用的最基本的药物之一，都依赖中国的供应链。

We, depend on China, ironically, for our own military-industrial base.

具有讽刺意味的是，我们依赖中国来建立我们自己的军工基地。

Think about how little sense that makes actually.

想想看，这实际上毫无意义。

Our own military, which supposedly exists to protect ourselves against adversaries, depends for its own supplies, semiconductors, and otherwise, on our top adversary, that doesn’t make sense.

我们自己的军队，据说是为了保护自己免受对手的侵害而存在，却依赖于自己的供应、半导体，以及我们的头号对手，这是没有意义的。

Even if you’re a libertarian in the school of Friedrich von Hayek, who somebody I admire as well, even then, you would not argue for a foreign dependence on adversary for your military.

即使你是弗里德里希·冯·哈耶克学派的自由主义者（也是我所钦佩的人），即便如此，你也不会主张军队对外国的依赖。

So, that’s the next step we need to take, is at least reduce US dependence on China for the most essential inputs for the functioning of the United States of America, including our own military.

因此，我们需要采取的下一步，至少是减少美国对中国的依赖，以获取美利坚合众国运作最重要的投入，包括我们自己的军队。

2:10:36 As a side note, I believe that means not just on-shoring to the United States.

顺便说一句，我认为这不仅仅意味着将业务转移到美国。

It does, but if we’re really serious about that, it also means expanding our relationships with allies like Japan, South Korea, India, the Philippines.

确实如此，但如果我们真的认真对待这一点，这也意味着扩大我们与日本、韩国、印度、菲律宾等盟友的关系。

And that’s an interesting debate to have because some on the right would say, “Okay, I want to decouple from China, but I also want less trade with all these other places.” You can’t have both those things at the same time.

这是一场有趣的辩论，因为一些右翼人士会说，“好吧，我想与中国脱钩，但我也希望减少与所有其他地方的贸易。”你不能同时拥有这两件事。

You can have one or the other.

您可以选择其中之一。

You can’t have both.

你不能两者兼得。

And so, we have to acknowledge and be honest with ourselves that there are trade-offs to declaring independence from China.

因此，我们必须承认并对自己诚实，宣布从中国独立是需要权衡的。

But the question is, what are the long-run benefits?

但问题是，长期的好处是什么？

2:11:07 Now, you think about the other way to do this is strategic clarity.

现在，您认为实现这一目标的另一种方法是战略清晰度。

I think the way that you see World Wars often emerge is strategic ambiguity from two adversaries who don’t really know what the other side’s red line is or isn’t, and accidentally crosses those red lines.

我认为世界大战经常出现的方式是两个对手的战略模糊性，他们并不真正知道对方的红线是什么或不是什么，并且不小心跨越了这些红线。

And I think we need to be much clearer with what are our hard red lines and what aren’t they.

我认为我们需要更清楚什么是我们的硬红线，什么不是。

And I think that’s the single most effective way to make sure this doesn’t spiral into major world war.

我认为这是确保这不会演变成世界大战的最有效方法。

2:11:34 And then, let’s talk about ending the Russia-Ukraine conflict on the terms that I just discussed with you before.

然后，我们来谈谈按照我刚才和大家讨论的条件来结束俄罗斯和乌克兰的冲突。

Weakening the Russia-China Alliance not only reduces the risk that Russia becomes an aggressor, it also reduces the risk that China takes the risks that could escalate us to World War III as well.

削弱俄中联盟不仅可以降低俄罗斯成为侵略者的风险，也可以降低中国承担可能将我们升级为第三次世界大战的风险。

So I think that geopolitically, you got to look at these things holistically, that end of the Russia-Ukraine war in that peace deal deescalates not only the Russia-Ukraine conflict but the risk of a broader conflict that includes China as well, by also weakening China.

因此，我认为，从地缘政治角度来看，你必须从整体上看待这些事情，和平协议中俄罗斯-乌克兰战争的结束不仅会缓和俄罗斯-乌克兰冲突，还会削弱中国，从而降低包括中国在内的更广泛冲突的风险。

2:12:00 …

……

of a broader conflict that includes China as well by also weakening China because Russia also has hypersonic missiles and missile capabilities that are ahead of that China’s.

俄罗斯也拥有领先于中国的高超音速导弹和导弹能力，从而削弱中国，从而引发一场包括中国在内的更广泛的冲突。

If Russia is no longer in the military alliance with China, that changes China’s calculus as well.

如果俄罗斯不再与中国结成军事联盟，那也会改变中国的考量。

So that’s kind of I think, more strategic vision we need in our foreign policy than we’ve had since certainly the Nixon era.

所以我认为，我们的外交政策需要比尼克松时代以来更多的战略眼光。

I think that you need people who are going to be able to challenge the status quo, question the existing orthodoxies, the willingness to use levers to get great deals done that otherwise wouldn’t have gotten done.

我认为你需要那些能够挑战现状、质疑现有正统观念、愿意利用杠杆来完成原本无法完成的重大交易的人。

And that’s why I do think someone like Donald Trump in the presidency, and obviously I ran for president as an outsider and a businessman as well.

这就是为什么我确实认为像唐纳德·特朗普这样的人会担任总统，显然我也是作为局外人和商人竞选总统。

I think this is an area, our foreign policy is one where we actually benefit from having business leaders in those roles rather than people who are shackled by the traditional political manner of thinking.

我认为这是一个领域，我们的外交政策实际上受益于让商界领袖担任这些角色，而不是受传统政治思维方式束缚的人。

I think the thing you didn’t quite make clear, but I think implied is that we have to accept the red line that China provides of the one China policy.

我认为你没有说清楚，但我认为暗示的是我们必须接受中国提供的一个中国政策的红线。

Both sides need to have their red lines, both sides need to have their red line.

双方都需要有自己的红线，双方都需要有自己的红线。

2:13:02 So we can get into specifics, but it’s going to vary depending on the circumstances.

所以我们可以讨论具体细节，但会根据具体情况而有所不同。

But the principle that I would give you is that we have to have a hard red line that’s clear.

但我要给你们的原则是，我们必须有一条明确的硬红线。

I think that that hard red line, and I was clear during my campaign on this, so I’ll say it again, is I think that we have to have a clear red line that China will not and should not for any time in the foreseeable future, annex Taiwan.

我认为那条硬红线，我在竞选期间对此很明确，所以我再说一遍，我认为我们必须有一条明确的红线，中国不会也不应该在可预见的未来的任何时候吞并台湾。

I do think that for the United States, it probably is prudent right now not to suddenly upend the diplomatic policy we’ve adopted for decades of what is recognizing the one China policy in our position of quiet deference to that.

我确实认为，对于美国来说，现在最好不要突然颠覆我们几十年来采取的外交政策，即承认一个中国政策，并默默尊重这一政策。

2:13:41 And understand that that may be the red line is the national recognition of Taiwan as an independent nation would be a red line that China would have.

并了解，这可能是红线，即国家承认台湾为独立国家，这将是中国将拥有的红线。

But we would have a red line to say that we do not in any circumstance tolerate the annexation by physical force and anytime in the foreseeable future when that’s against the interest of the United States of America.

但我们有一条红线，即在任何情况下以及在可预见的未来任何时候，当这违背美利坚合众国的利益时，我们都不会容忍武力吞并。

So those are examples, but the principle here is you asked how do we avoid major conflict with China?

这些都是例子，但这里的原则是你问我们如何避免与中国发生重大冲突？

I think it starts with clear red lines on both sides.

我认为它是从两侧清晰的红线开始的。

I think it starts with also lowering the stakes for the United States by making sure we’re not dependent on China for our modern way of life.

我认为首先要确保我们的现代生活方式不依赖中国，从而降低美国的风险。

And I think it also starts with ironically using a peaceful resolution to the Ukraine war as a way of weakening the Russia-China alliance, which in the other direction of weakening China has significant benefits to us as well.

我认为，具有讽刺意味的是，这还始于利用和平解决乌克兰战争作为削弱俄中联盟的一种方式，而从另一个方向削弱中国也对我们有重大好处。

But what are you do when china says very politely, ” We’re going to annex Taiwan whether you like it or not.”

但当中国非常礼貌地说“无论你喜欢与否，我们都会吞并台湾”时，你该怎么办？

Against the backdrop that I just laid out, that’s not going to happen.

在我刚刚提出的背景下，这是不会发生的。

2:14:35 That wouldn’t happen if we actually make sure that we are crystal clear about what our red lines and priorities are.

如果我们真的确保我们非常清楚我们的红线和优先事项是什么，这种情况就不会发生。

We’re also dependent on Taiwan right now for our own semiconductor supply chain.

我们现在也依赖台湾来提供我们自己的半导体供应链。

So China knows that’s going to draw us into serious conflict in that circumstance.

所以中国知道在这种情况下这会让我们陷入严重冲突。

So against the backdrop of clearly drawn red lines against the backdrop of Russia no longer automatically being in China’s camp, that’s a big lever.

因此，在俄罗斯不再自动加入中国阵营的背景下，明确划定红线，这是一个很大的杠杆。

I think also strengthening our relationship with other allies where we have room to strengthen those relationships, like India.

我认为还要加强我们与其他有空间加强这些关系的盟友的关系，比如印度。

And I’m not just saying that because my name is Vivek Ramaswamy, right?

我这么说不仅仅是因为我的名字叫维韦克·拉马斯瓦米，对吧？

I’m saying it because it’s strategically important to the United States to understand that God forbid, in a conflict scenario, China would perceive some risk to the Indian Ocean or the Andaman Sea no longer being reliable for getting Middle Eastern oil supplies.

我这么说是因为对美国来说，了解这一点具有战略重要性：上帝保佑，在发生冲突的情况下，中国会认为印度洋或安达曼海不再可靠地获得中东石油供应，存在一些风险。

2:15:21 There’s a lot of levers here, but I think that if we are both strategically clear with our allies and with our adversaries about what our red lines are, what our priorities are, reasonable deals that pull Russia out of the hands of China and vice versa, reasonable allies and relationships that cause China to question whether it can continue to have the same access to Middle Eastern oil supplies as it does today.

这里有很多杠杆，但我认为，如果我们在战略上与我们的盟友和对手都清楚我们的红线是什么，我们的优先事项是什么，合理的协议可以将俄罗斯从中国手中拉出来，反之亦然，合理的盟友和关系会让中国质疑它是否可以继续像今天一样获得中东石油供应。

And then clear red lines with China itself about what we definitely aren’t okay with and understand that they may have certain red lines to, that allows us, I think to still avoid what many people will call the unavoidable conflict, the Thucydides trap against the circumstance of when there’s a rising power against the backdrop of a declining power conflict always becomes inevitable.

然后与中国本身明确我​​们绝对不能接受的事情的红线，并了解他们可能有一定的红线，这使我们，我认为仍然可以避免许多人所说的不可避免的冲突，在权力冲突下降的背景下崛起的大国总是不可避免地陷入修昔底德陷阱。

That’s a theory.

这是一个理论。

It’s not a law of physics and I don’t think that, A, we have to be a declining power, and B, I don’t think that that has to necessarily result in major conflict with China here.

这不是物理定律，我不认为，A，我们必须成为一个衰落的国家，B，我认为这不一定会导致与中国的重大冲突。

2:16:14 It’s going to require real leadership, leadership with a spine and you don’t have to judge based on international relations theory to form your view on this.

这将需要真正的领导力，有骨气的领导力，你不必根据国际关系理论来判断来形成你对此的看法。

Four years under Trump, we didn’t have major conflicts in the Middle East, in places like Russia, Ukraine.

在特朗普执政的四年里，我们在中东、俄罗斯、乌克兰等地没有发生重大冲突。

We were on the cusp of war with North Korea when Obama left office and Trump took over.

当奥巴马卸任、特朗普接任时，我们正处于与朝鲜战争的风口浪尖。

Four years under Biden, less than four years under Biden and Harris, what do you have?

拜登在位四年，比拜登和哈里斯在位还不到四年，你们有什么？

Major conflicts in the Middle East.

中东地区发生重大冲突。

Major conflict in Russia, Ukraine, judged by the results.

从结果来看，俄罗斯、乌克兰的重大冲突。

And I mean I would say that even if you’re somebody who disagrees with a lot of Donald Trump and you don’t like his style, if you’re single issues, you want to stay out of World War III, I think there’s a pretty clear case for why you go for Trump in this election.

我的意思是，我想说，即使你不同意唐纳德·特朗普的很多观点，并且你不喜欢他的风格，如果你是单一问题，你想远离第三次世界大战，我认为有一个非常清楚的理由说明为什么你在这次选举中支持特朗普。

So Prime Minister Modi, I think you’ve complimented him in a bunch of different directions, one of which is when you’re discussing nationalism.

所以莫迪总理，我认为你在很多不同的方面称赞了他，其中之一就是当你讨论民族主义时。

Yeah, I believe that someone I’ve gotten to know actually reasonably well for example, recently is Giorgia Meloni, who’s a leader of Italy, told her the same thing.

是的，我相信我认识的一个人实际上相当了解，例如，最近意大利领导人乔治亚·梅洛尼（Giorgia Meloni）也告诉了她同样的事情。

2:17:02 One of the things I love about her as a leader of Italy is that she does not apologize for the national identity of the country and that she stands for certain values uncompromisingly and she doesn’t give a second care about what the media has to say about it.

作为意大利领导人，我喜欢她的一件事是，她不会为国家的民族认同道歉，她毫不妥协地代表某些价值观，而且她不会再关心媒体对此的看法。

One of the things I love last time I spoke to her when she was in the US when we sat down was she talked about she doesn’t even read the newspaper, she doesn’t read and watch the media and it allows her to make decisions that are best for the people.

上次我在美国与她交谈时，我们坐下来时，我喜欢的一件事是她谈到她甚至不读报纸，她不阅读和观看媒体，这让她能够做出最有利于人民的决定。

2:17:37 And there are elements of that in Modi’s approach as well, which I respect about him, is he doesn’t apologize for the fact that India has a national identity and that the nation should be proud of it.

莫迪的做法中也有这样的元素，我对他很尊重，那就是他没有为印度拥有民族认同并且国家应该为此感到自豪这一事实道歉。

But I’m not saying that because I’m proud of Meloni or Modi for their own countries.

但我这么说并不是因为我为梅洛尼或莫迪为自己的国家感到自豪。

I’m American.

我是美国人。

I think there are lessons to learn from leaders who are proud of their own nation’s identity rather than apologizing for it.

我认为，我们可以从那些为自己国家的身份感到自豪而不是为此道歉的领导人身上学到一些教训。

And I think it’s a big part of, it’s why I ran for president on a campaign centered on national pride.

我认为这是我在以民族自豪感为中心的竞选活动中竞选总统的一个重要原因。

It’s also why I’m not only voting for but actively supporting Donald Trump because I do think he’s going to be the one that restores that missing national pride in the United States.

这也是为什么我不仅投票支持唐纳德·特朗普，而且积极支持他，因为我确实认为他将成为恢复美国缺失的民族自豪感的人。

And I touch on this as well in the book, there’s a chapter here, it says, “Nationalism isn’t a bad word.”

我在书中也谈到了这一点，这里有一章说，“民族主义不是一个坏词。”

2:18:20 I think nationalism can be a very positive thing if it’s grounded in the actual true attributes of a nation.

我认为，如果民族主义植根于一个民族的真实属性，它可能是一件非常积极的事情。

And in the United States that doesn’t mean no nationalism because that was not what the national identity of the United States was based on in the first place.

在美国，这并不意味着没有民族主义，因为这并不是美国民族认同的基础。

But a civic nationalism grounded in our actual national ideals, that is who we are.

但植根于我们实际民族理想的公民民族主义，就是我们。

And I think that that is something that we’ve gotten uncomfortable with in the countries to say that, “Oh, I’m proud of being American and I believe in American exceptionalism.” Somehow that’s looking down on others.

我认为，我们对这些国家说“哦，我为自己是美国人感到自豪，并且我相信美国例外论”感到不舒服。怎么说呢，就是看不起别人。

No, I’m not looking down on anybody, but I’m proud of my own country.

不，我不是瞧不起任何人，但我为自己的国家感到自豪。

And I think Modi’s revived that spirit in India in a way that was missing for a long time, right?

我认为莫迪以一种长期缺失的方式在印度复兴了这种精神，对吗？

India had an inferiority complex, a psychological inferiority complex, but now to be proud of its national heritage and its national mythmaking and its national legacy and history.

印度曾有一种自卑情结，一种心理上的自卑情结，但现在却为其民族遗产、民族神话、民族遗产和历史感到自豪。

2:19:08 And to say that every nation does have to have a kind of mythmaking about its past and to be proud of that, it’s like Malcolm X actually said this here in the United States, he said, “A nation without an appreciation for its history is like a tree without roots, it’s dead.” And I think that that’s true not just for the United States, I think it’s true for every other nation.

要说每个国家确实都必须对自己的过去有某种神话，并为此感到自豪，就像马尔科姆·艾克斯在美国实际说过的那样，他说，“一个不欣赏其历史的国家就像一棵没有根的树，它已经死了。”我认为这不仅适用于美国，也适用于其他所有国家。

I think leaders like Meloni in Italy, leaders like Modi in India have done a great job that I wish to bring that type of pride back in the United States.

我认为像意大利的梅洛尼这样的领导人，像印度的莫迪这样的领导人做得很好，我希望将这种自豪感带回美国。

And whatever I do next, Lex, I’ll tell you this is I think reviving that sense of identity and pride, especially in the next generation is one of the most important things we can do for this country.

无论我下一步做什么，莱克斯，我都会告诉你，我认为复兴这种认同感和自豪感，特别是在下一代，是我们能为这个国家做的最重要的事情之一。

Speaking of what you do next, any chance you run in 2028?

说到你接下来要做的事情，你有机会参加 2028 年的竞选吗？

Well, I’m not going to rule it out.

好吧，我不会排除这种可能性。

2:20:00 I mean that’s a long time from now and I’m most focused on what I can do in the next chapter for the country.

我的意思是，距离现在已经很长一段时间了，我最关注的是我能为国家做些什么。

I ran for president, a million things that I learned from that experience that you can only learn by doing it.

我竞选总统，我从那次经历中学到了一百万件事，而你只能通过实践才能学到这些东西。

It was very much a fire first aim later when getting into the race.

当进入比赛后，这是一个非常火的第一个目标。

There was no way I could have planned and plotted this out as somebody who was coming from the outside.

作为一个从外面来的人，我不可能计划和策划这件事。

I was 37 years old, came from the business world, so there was a lot that only could learn by actually doing it and I did, but I care about the same things that led me into the presidential race and I don’t think the issues have been solved.

我当时 37 岁，来自商界，所以有很多东西只有通过实际操作才能学到，我确实做到了，但我关心的事情与导致我参加总统竞选的事情相同，我认为这些问题还没有得到解决。

I think that we have a generation that is lost in the country.

我认为我们有一代人迷失在这个国家。

It’s not just young people.

不仅仅是年轻人。

2:20:41 I think it’s all of us in some ways are hungry for purpose and meaning at a time in our history when the things that used to fill that void in our heart, they’re missing.

我认为，在我们历史上的某个时刻，我们所有人在某种程度上都渴望目标和意义，而那些曾经用来填补我们内心空虚的东西却消失了。

And I think we need a president who both the right policies for the country seal the border, grow the economy, stay out of World War III, end rampant crime.

我认为我们需要一位既能对国家采取正确政策又能封锁边境、发展经济、远离第三次世界大战、结束猖獗犯罪的总统。

Yes, we need the right policies, but we also need leaders who in a sustained way revive our national character, revive our sense of pride in this country, revive our identity as Americans, and I think that that need exists as much today as it did when I first ran for president.

是的，我们需要正确的政策，但我们也需要领导人以持续的方式重振我们的民族性格，重振我们对这个国家的自豪感，重振我们作为美国人的身份，我认为这种需求今天仍然存在，就像我第一次竞选总统时一样。

I don’t think it’s going to be automatically solved in just a few years.

我认为这个问题不会在短短几年内自动解决。

I think Donald Trump is the right person to carry that banner forward for the next four years.

我认为唐纳德·特朗普是在未来四年继续弘扬这面旗帜的合适人选。

2:21:28 But after that, we’ll see where the country is headed into 2028 and whatever I do, it’ll be whatever has a maximal positive impact on the country.

但在那之后，我们将看到这个国家将走向 2028 年，无论我做什么，都会对这个国家产生最大的积极影响。

I’ll also tell you that my laser focus maybe as distinct from other politicians on both sides is to take America to the next level, to move beyond our victimhood culture, to restore our culture of excellence.

我还要告诉你，我的激光焦点也许与双方其他政客不同的是，将美国提升到一个新的水平，超越我们的受害者文化，恢复我们的卓越文化。

We got to shut down that nanny state, the entitlement state, the regulatory state, the foreign policy nanny state, shut it down and revive who we really are as Americans, and I’m as passionate about that as ever.

我们必须关闭保姆国家、权利国家、监管​​国家、外交政策保姆国家，关闭它并恢复我们作为美国人的真实身份，我一如既往地对此充满热情。

But the next step is not running for president.

但下一步不是竞选总统。

The next step is what happens in the next four years, and that’s why over the next four weeks I’m focused on doing whatever I can to make sure we succeed in this election.

下一步是未来四年内发生的事情，这就是为什么在接下来的四个星期里，我将专注于尽我所能，以确保我们在这次选举中取得成功。

Well, I hope you run because this was made clear on the stage in the primary debates.

好吧，我希望你参选，因为这一点在初选辩论的舞台上已经明确了。

2:22:14 You have a unique clarity and honesty in expressing the ideas you stand for and it would be nice to see that.

您在表达自己所代表的想法时具有独特的清晰度和诚实性，很高兴看到这一点。

I would also like to see the same thing on the other side, which would make for some badass, interesting debates.

我也希望在另一边看到同样的事情，这会引发一些激烈而有趣的辩论。

I would love nothing more than a kick-ass set of top-tier Democrat candidates.

我最喜欢的就是一群顶尖的民主党候选人。

2:22:38 After four years of Donald Trump, we have a primary filled with actually people who have real visions for the country on both sides, and the people of this country can choose between those competing visions without insult or injury being the way.

唐纳德·特朗普执政四年后，我们的初选实际上充满了双方对国家都有真正愿景的人，这个国家的人民可以在这些相互竞争的愿景之间做出选择，而不会受到侮辱或伤害。

I would love nothing more than to see that in 2028.

我最希望在 2028 年看到这一点。

Who do you think?

你认为是谁？

2:23:03 So for me, I would love to see in some kind of future where it’s you versus somebody like Tim Walz.

所以对我来说，我希望在未来看到你与蒂姆·沃尔兹这样的人对抗。

So to Tim Walz, maybe I’m lacking in knowledge, is first of all, a good dude, has similar to you, strongly held if not radical ideas of how to make progress in this country.

所以对蒂姆·沃尔兹来说，也许我缺乏知识，首先，我是一个好人，和你有类似的想法，对于如何在这个国家取得进步，即使不是激进的想法，也有强烈的想法。

So to just be on stage and debate honestly about the ideas, there’s a tension between those ideas.

因此，只要在舞台上诚实地辩论这些想法，这些想法之间就会存在紧张关系。

Is there other people?

还有其他人吗？

Shapiro’s interesting also.

夏皮罗也很有趣。

I would like to take on in earnest, in civil but contested context of a debate.

我愿意在一场严肃、文明但有争议的辩论中进行辩论。

2:23:38 Who do we want to take on?

我们想接受谁？

You want to take on somebody who disagrees with you but still has deep ideology of their own.

你想要与那些与你意见不同但仍然有自己深刻的意识形态的人较量。

I think John Fetterman is pretty interesting, right?

我觉得约翰·费特曼很有趣，对吧？

He’s demonstrated himself to be somebody who is thoughtful, able to change his mind on positions, but not in some sort of fake flip-floppity, flippity-floppity way.

他证明了自己是一个深思熟虑的人，能够改变自己对立场的看法，但不是以某种假装的反复无常、反复无常的方式。

But in a thoughtful evolution, somebody’s been through personal struggles, somebody who I deeply disagree with on a lot of his views and most of his views.

但在深思熟虑的演变中，有人经历了个人斗争，我在他的很多观点和大部分观点上都非常不同意。

But who I can at least say he comes across at least as somebody who has been through that torturous process of really examining your beliefs and convictions and has when necessary, been able to preach to his own tribe where he thinks they’re wrong.

但我至少可以说，他至少经历过真正审视自己的信仰和信念的痛苦过程，并且在必要时能够向他自己的部落宣讲他认为他们是错误的。

2:24:26 I think it’s interesting.

我认为这很有趣。

I think that you have in a number of other leaders probably emerging at lower levels on the left.

我认为还有许多其他领导人可能出现在左翼较低级别。

Not everybody’s going to necessarily come from Washington DC.

并非每个人都一定来自华盛顿特区。

In fact, the longer they’re there, the more they in some ways get polluted by it.

事实上，他们在那里呆的时间越长，在某些方面受到的污染就越多。

I think the governor of Colorado, he’s an interesting guy.

我认为科罗拉多州州长是一个有趣的人。

He’s got a more libertarian tendency.

他有更自由主义的倾向。

I don’t know as much about his views on it from a national perspective, but it’s intriguing to see somebody who has at least libertarian freedom-oriented tendencies within the Democratic Party.

我不太了解他从国家角度对此的看法，但看到民主党内至少有自由主义自由导向倾向的人是很有趣的。

I think that there are a number of, I mean, I don’t foresee him running for president, but I had a debate last year when I was running for president with Ro Khanna who say what you will about him.

我认为有很多人，我的意思是，我预计他不会竞选总统，但去年我在竞选总统时与罗·卡纳进行了一场辩论，他们对他的看法各有不同。

He’s an highly intelligent person and is somebody who is at least willing to buck the consensus of his party when necessary.

他是一个非常聪明的人，并且至少愿意在必要时违背政党的共识。

2:25:13 I think he recently, I would say lambasted, he phrased it very delicately, but criticized Kamala Harris’s proposed tax on unrealized capital gains.

我想他最近，我想说的是，他受到了严厉的斥责，他的措辞非常微妙，但批评了卡马拉·哈里斯对未实现资本利得征税的提议。

So I like people who are willing to challenge the orthodoxies in their own party because it says they actually have convictions.

所以我喜欢那些愿意挑战自己政党内的正统观念的人，因为这表明他们实际上有信念。

And so whoever the Democrats put up, I hope it’s someone like that.

因此，无论民主党提名谁，我都希望是这样的人。

And for my part I have and continue to have beliefs that will challenge Republicans, that on the face of it may not be the policies that poll on paper as the policies you’re supposed to adopt as a Republican candidate, but what a true leader does doesn’t just tell people what they want to hear.

就我而言，我拥有并将继续拥有将挑战共和党人的信念，从表面上看，纸上民意调查的政策可能不是你作为共和党候选人应该采取的政策，但真正的领导人所做的不仅仅是告诉人们他们想听到什么。

You tell people what they need to hear and you tell people what your actual convictions are.

你告诉人们他们需要听到什么，你告诉人们你的实际信念是什么。

And this idea that I don’t want to create a right-wing entitlement state or a nanny state, I want to shut it down.

我不想创建一个右翼权利国家或保姆国家的想法，我想关闭它。

2:26:02 That challenges the precept positions of where a lot of the conservative movement is right now.

这挑战了许多保守派运动目前的立场。

I don’t think the bill to cap credit card interest rates is a good idea because that’s a price control just like Kamala Harris’s price controls and it’ll reduce access to credit.

我认为限制信用卡利率的法案不是一个好主意，因为这是一种价格控制，就像卡马拉·哈里斯的价格控制一样，它会减少获得信贷的机会。

I don’t think that we want a crony capitalist estate showering private benefits on selected industries that favor us or that we want to expand the CFPB or the FTC’s remit, and somehow we’re going to trust it because it’s under our watch.

我不认为我们希望裙带资本主义阶层向有利于我们的特定行业提供大量私人利益，也不希望我们希望扩大 CFPB 或 FTC 的职权范围，而且我们会以某种方式信任它，因为它在我们的监管之下。

No, I believe in shutting it down.

不，我相信应该关闭它。

That challenges a lot of the current direction of the conservative movement.

这对保守运动当前的方向提出了很多挑战。

I believe in certain issues that, or maybe even outside the scope of what Republicans currently care about right now.

我相信某些问题，甚至可能超出了共和党人目前关心的范围。

2:26:41 One of the things that I oppose, for example, is this is not a top issue in American politics, but just to give you a sense for how I think and view the world, I’m against factory farming of a large scale of, you could sort of say putting the mistreatment of, it’s one thing to say that you need it for your sustenance and that’s great.

例如，我反对的一件事是，这不是美国政治中的首要问题，但只是为了让你了解我如何思考和看待世界，我反对大规模的工厂化农业，你可以说是虐待，说你需要它来维持生计是一回事，这很好。

But it’s another to say that you have to do it in a factory farming setting that gives special exemptions from historical laws that have existed that are the product of crony capitalism.

但如果说你必须在工厂化农业环境中做到这一点，那就是另一回事了，工厂化农业环境对裙带资本主义产物所存在的历史法律给予了特殊豁免。

I’m against crony capitalism in all its forms.

我反对一切形式的裙带资本主义。

I’m against the influence of mega money in politics.

我反对巨额资金对政治的影响。

I don’t think that’s been good either for Democrats or Republicans.

我认为这对民主党或共和党来说都不是好事。

Some of those views I think are not necessarily the traditional Republican orthodoxy reading chapter and verse from what the Republican Party platform has been.

我认为其中一些观点不一定是传统的共和党正统解读共和党政纲的章节和诗句。

It’s not against the Republican Party platform, but it’s asking what the future of our movement is.

这并不是反对共和党的纲领，而是在问我们运动的未来是什么。

Some of these things are hard, like getting money out of politics.

其中有些事情很难，比如从政治中获取金钱。

Getting mega money, getting mega money.

赚大钱，赚大钱。

The mega money.

巨额资金。

2:27:37 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

And so long as it exists, you got to play the game.

只要它存在，你就必须玩这个游戏。

I mean, if you’re going to play to win, I think one of the things I realized is that you just can’t compete without it, but you want to win the game in order to change the game.

我的意思是，如果你想赢得比赛，我认为我意识到的一件事是，没有它你就无法竞争，但你想赢得比赛以改变游戏规则。

And I think that that’s something that I keep in mind as well.

我想这也是我牢记在心的事情。

2:27:54 You have written a lot, you’re exceptionally productive.

你写了很多，你的生产力非常高。

But even just looking book-wise written basically a book a year for the last four years.

但即使只是看书，过去四年基本上每年写一本书。

When you’re writing, when you’re thinking about how to solve the problems of the world to develop your policy, how do you think?

当你写作时，当你思考如何解决世界问题来制定你的政策时，你是怎么想的？

I need quiet time, extended periods of it that are separated from the rush of the day to day or the travel actually think a lot better when I’m working out and physically active.

我需要安静的时间，需要长时间的安静时间，远离日常的忙碌，或者当我锻炼身体并活跃身体时，旅行实际上会更好。

2:28:11 So if I’m running, playing tennis, lifting, somehow for me, that really opens up my mind and then I need a significant amount of time after that with a notebook.

因此，如果我跑步、打网球、举重，对我来说，这真的会打开我的思维，然后我需要大量的时间来处理笔记本。

Usually carry around a notebook everywhere I go and write it down in there.

通常我走到哪里都会带着一个笔记本，并把它记下来。

Is the notebook full of chaotic thoughts or is it structured?

笔记本里是杂乱的想法还是条理分明？

2:28:38 Does it-

是不是——

Sometimes it’s chaotic, sometimes it’s structured.

有时是混乱的，有时是结构化的。

2:28:42 It’s a little bit of both.

两者都有一点。

Sometimes I have a thought that I know I don’t want to forget later, I’ll immediately jot it down.

有时我有一个想法，我知道以后不想忘记，我会立即记下来。

Other times on the flight over here, I had a much more structured layout of, I got a lot of different projects in the air, for example, and I cross pollinate, I was in the shower this morning, had a bunch of thoughts, collected those on my plane ride over here.

其他时候，在来这里的航班上，我有一个更加结构化的布局，例如，我在空中有很多不同的项目，我交叉授粉，今天早上我在淋浴，有很多想法，收集了我在飞机上飞到这里的那些想法。

So I think that writing is something in all of its forms that helps me.

所以我认为写作的各种形式都对我有帮助。

It’s one of the things actually helped me this year was actually writing this book.

今年真正帮助我的事情之一就是写这本书。

You’re going through a presidential campaign, you’re going at super speed.

你正在经历一场总统竞选，你正在以超快的速度进行。

And if I was to do the presidential campaign again, the thing I would do is actually to take more structured breaks.

如果我再次参加总统竞选，我会做的实际上是进行更有条理的休息。

I don’t mean breaks isn’t just like vacations, but I mean breaks to reflect on what’s actually happening.

我并不是说休息不只是像假期一样，而是说休息可以反思实际发生的事情。

Probably the biggest mistake I made is last time around heading into the first debate, I was like in nine different states over seven days.

我犯的最大错误可能是上次进入第一场辩论时，我就像在七天内去了九个不同的州。

2:29:36 I would’ve just taken that as a pause where halfway through you’ve established relevance, now make sure the country sees who you actually are in full rather than just the momentum competitive driven version of you.

我只是把这当作一个暂停，在你已经建立了相关性的一半时，现在确保这个国家看到你真正的完整身份，而不仅仅是你的势头竞争驱动的版本。

And I just think that taking those moments to just take stock of where you are, do some writing.

我只是认为利用这些时间来评估一下你的处境，写一些东西。

I didn’t do much writing during the presidential campaign.

在总统竞选期间我没有写太多东西。

I enjoy writing.

我喜欢写作。

It’s part of how I center myself.

这是我如何集中自己的一部分。

It’s part of what this book allowed me to do is, okay, I ran that whirlwind of a campaign.

这本书允许我做的一部分是，好吧，我发起了一场旋风般的竞选活动。

The first thing I started doing after I collected myself for a couple of weeks was take the pen and start writing.

几周后，我冷静下来后开始做的第一件事就是拿起笔开始写作。

And I was committed to writing that book.

我决心写那本书。

Whether or not anybody read it, I was just writing it for myself.

不管有没有人读过，我只是为自己写的。

And actually it started in a very different form.

实际上它以一种非常不同的形式开始。

It was very personal reflection oriented.

这是非常注重个人反思的。

So most of that, funny enough I’ve learned about writing the books, Lex, is-

所以，有趣的是，我学到的关于写书的大部分内容，莱克斯，是——

Just edit it out.

只需编辑它即可。

It just didn’t end up in the book because it went in a different direction than what’s interesting for a publisher to publish.

它只是没有最终出现在书中，因为它的发展方向与出版商感兴趣的出版方向不同。

2:30:25 And so for each of my books, the things that I started writing ended up never in the book anyway, just because the topic ended up morphing.

因此，对于我的每一本书，我开始写的东西最终都没有出现在书中，只是因为主题最终发生了变化。

But the journey that led me to write this book, a lot of it in this book is still in there.

但是导致我写这本书的旅程，这本书中的很多内容仍然存在。

This is my fourth book in four years.

这是我四年来的第四本书。

You’re right.

你说得对。

And I hope it’s the most important one, but it is certainly the product of an honest reflection that whatever it might do for the reader, it helped me to write it.

我希望这是最重要的，但它肯定是诚实反思的产物，无论它可能为读者做些什么，它都帮助我写了它。

2:30:53 And I think that’s one of the things that I learned from this campaign is not just all the policy lessons, but even just as a matter of personal practice, the ability to take spaces of time to not only physically challenge yourself, work out, et cetera, but to give yourself the space to reflect, to recenter yourself on the why.

我认为我从这次竞选中学到的东西之一不仅仅是所有的政策教训，而且甚至只是作为个人实践的问题，能够花时间不仅挑战自己的身体、锻炼等等，而且给自己空间去反思，重新审视自己的原因。

Had I done that, I think I would’ve been even more centered on the mission the whole time.

如果我这样做了，我想我会一直更加专注于使命。

Rather than you get attacked on the way you’re thrown off your tilt or thrown off your balance, it becomes a lot harder for someone else to do that to you if you’ve really centered yourself on your own purpose.

如果你真正专注于自己的目标，那么别人就很难对你这样做，而不是因为你失去了倾斜或失去平衡而受到攻击。

It’s probably one of my biggest learnings.

这可能是我最大的收获之一。

So you’ve mentioned the first primary debate, so more than almost basically anybody I’ve ever seen you step into some really intense debates, And you’re on podcasts in general in all kinds of walks of life, whether it’s debates with sort of protestors or debates with people that really disagree with you, like the radical opposite of you.

所以你提到了第一次初选辩论，所以你比我见过的几乎任何人都更多地参与了一些非常激烈的辩论，而且你在各行各业的播客中普遍存在，无论是与某种抗议者的辩论，还是与真正不同意你的人的辩论，比如与你的激进对立面的人。

2:31:32 What’s the philosophy behind that, and what’s the psychology of being able to be calm through all of that, which you seem to be able to do.

这背后的哲学是什么，以及能够平静地度过这一切的心理是什么，而你似乎能够做到这一点。

Well, I enjoy debate and for me, I think just in ordinary life, forget about a formal debate setting.

嗯，我喜欢辩论，对我来说，我认为在日常生活中，忘记正式的辩论环境。

2:32:06 Whenever I’ve received criticism or a contrary view, my first impulse is always, “Are they right?” I mean it’s always a possibility, right?

每当我受到批评或相反的观点时，我的第一反应总是：“他们是对的吗？”我的意思是这总是有可能的，对吗？

And most of the time what happens is you understand the other side’s argument, but you emerge with a stronger conviction in your own belief, you know your own beliefs better if you can state the best argument for the other side, but sometimes you do change your mind, and I think that that’s happened over the course of my life as well.

大多数时候，你理解了对方的论点，但你对自己的信念有了更坚定的信念，如果你能为对方陈述最好的论点，你就会更好地了解自己的信念，但有时你确实会改变主意，我认为这在我的一生中也发生过。

I think no one’s a thinking human being unless that happens once in a while too.

我认为没有人是一个有思想的人，除非这种情况偶尔发生。

And so anyway, just the idea of the pursuit of truth through open debate and inquiry, that’s always just been part of my identity, part of who I am.

所以无论如何，通过公开辩论和探究来追求真理的想法一直是我身份的一部分，我是谁的一部分。

I’m wired that way.

我就是这样连接的。

2:32:51 I thrive on it, I enjoy it.

我靠它茁壮成长，我享受它。

Even my relationships with my closest friends are built around heated debates and deep-seated disagreements.

甚至我和最亲密的朋友的关系也是建立在激烈的辩论和根深蒂固的分歧之上的。

And I just think that’s beautiful, not just about human relationships, but it’s particularly beautiful about America, right?

我只是认为这很美，不仅仅是人际关系，而且美国尤其美丽，对吧？

Because it’s part of the culture of this country more so than other countries in China, India, Asian cultures even a lot of European cultures are very different where that’s considered not genteel behavior.

因为它是这个国家文化的一部分，比中国、印度、亚洲文化甚至许多欧洲文化都非常不同，这被认为是不礼貌的行为。

It’s not the respectful behavior.

这不是尊重的行为。

Whereas for us, part of what makes this country great is you could disagree like hell and still get together at the dinner table at the end of it.

而对我们来说，这个国家之所以伟大的部分原因在于，你可以极度不同意，但最后仍然能在餐桌上聚在一起。

I think we’ve lost some of that, but I’m on a bit of a mission to bring that back.

我认为我们已经失去了一些，但我的使命是把它找回来。

And so whether it’s in politics or not, I’m committed in that next step, whatever the path is over the next four years, one of the things I’m committed to doing is making sure that I go out of my way to talk to people who actually disagree with me.

因此，无论是否在政治领域，我都会致力于下一步，无论未来四年的道路是什么，我致力于做的一件事就是确保我不遗余力地与那些真正不同意我的人交谈。

And I think it’s a big part of how we’re going to save our country.

我认为这是我们拯救国家的重要组成部分。

Are they right?

他们是对的吗？

2:33:55 Is a thing I actually literally see you do.

这是我亲眼所见的事情。

So you are listening to the person.

所以你正在听这个人的讲话。

For my own benefit, to be honest, selfish.

为了自己的利益，说实话，很自私。

You also don’t lose your shit.

你也不会失去你的狗屎。

2:34:03 So you don’t take it personally.

所以你不要把它当成是针对你个人的。

You don’t get emotional, but you get emotional sort of in a positive way.

你不会变得情绪化，但你会以一种积极的方式变得情绪化。

You get passionate, but you don’t get…

你变得充满激情，但你却没有……

I’ve never seen you broken to where they get you outraged, probably because you just love the heat.

我从未见过你崩溃到让你愤怒的程度，可能是因为你只是喜欢炎热。

I love the heat and I’m a curious person, so I’m always curious about what’s motivating the person on the other side.

我喜欢温暖，而且我是一个好奇的人，所以我总是对对方的动机感到好奇。

2:34:23 That curiosity I think is actually the best antidote because if you’re just trying to stay calm in the face of somebody attacking you, that’s kind of fake.

我认为这种好奇心实际上是最好的解药，因为如果你只是想在面对攻击你的人时保持冷静，那就有点假了。

But if you’re kind of curious about them, genuinely just wondering, I think most people are good people inherently.

但如果你对他们有点好奇，真的只是想知道，我认为大多数人本质上都是好人。

We all maybe get misguided from time to time, but what is it that’s moving that person to go in such a different direction than you?

我们都可能时不时地被误导，但是是什么促使那个人走向与你如此不同的方向呢？

2:34:53 I think as long as you’re curious about that, I mean the climate change protestors that have interrupted my events, I’m as fascinated by the psychology of what’s moving them and what they might be hungry for as I am concerned about rebutting the content of what they’re saying to me.

我想只要你对此感到好奇，我指的是那些打断了我的活动的气候变化抗议者，我对他们的感动和他们可能渴望什么的心理着迷，就像我担心反驳他们对我所说的话的内容一样。

And I think that that’s certainly something I care to revive.

我认为这肯定是我想要复兴的东西。

We don’t talk about in politics that much, but reviving that sense of curiosity I think is in a certain way, one of the ways we’re going to be able to disagree, but still remain friends and fellow citizens at the end of it.

我们在政治方面谈论得不多，但我认为在某种程度上重振好奇心是我们能够表达不同意见但最终仍然是朋友和同胞的方式之一。

I agree with you.

我同意你的看法。

2:35:27 I think fundamentally most people are good.

我认为大多数人本质上都是善良的。

And one of the things I love most about humans is the very thing you said, which is curiosity.

我最喜欢人类的事情之一就是你所说的，那就是好奇心。

I think we should lean into that.

我认为我们应该倾向于这一点。

You’re a curious person.

你是一个好奇的人。

2:35:38 I know this podcast is basically born of your curiosity, I’m sure.

我确信这个播客基本上是出于你的好奇心。

And so I just think we need more of that in America that kind of…

所以我认为我们在美国需要更多这样的……

Remember when I talked about our founding fathers, we were joking about it, but they were inventors, they were writers, they were political theorists, they were founders of a nation.

记得当我谈到我们的开国元勋时，我们是在开玩笑，但他们是发明家，他们是作家，他们是政治理论家，他们是一个国家的创始人。

They kind of had that boundless curiosity too.

他们也有无限的好奇心。

And I think part of what’s happened culturally in the countries we’ve gotten to this place where we’ve been told that, “Stay in your lane.

我认为在我们已经到达这个地方的国家中，文化上发生的部分事情我们被告知，“留在你的车道上。

You don’t have an expert degree in that, therefore you can’t have an opinion about it.” I don’t know.

你没有这方面的专业学位，因此你无法对此发表意见。”我不知道。

I think it’s a little bit un-American in terms of the culture of it.

我认为就其文化而言，它有点不美国。

2:36:15 And yeah, it’s one of the things I like about you and why I was looking forward to this conversation too, is it’s cool to have intellectual interests that span sports to culture, to politics, to philosophy.

是的，这是我喜欢你的事情之一，也是我为什么期待这次谈话的原因，那就是拥有跨越体育、文化、政治和哲学的知识兴趣是很酷的。

And it’s not like you just have to be an expert trained in one of those things to be able to engage in it, but actually maybe, just maybe you might even be better at each of those things because you’re curious about the other, the Renaissance man, if you will.

并不是说你只需要成为其中一件事方面的专家就可以从事其中的工作，但实际上也许，只是也许你甚至可能在每一件事上都做得更好，因为你对另一件事感到好奇，如果你愿意的话，文艺复兴时期的人。

I think we’ve lost a little bit of that concept in America, but it’s certainly something that is important to me.

我认为我们在美国已经失去了一点这个概念，但这对我来说确实很重要。

And this year it’s been kind of cool.

今年有点酷。

After leaving the campaign, I’ve been doing a wide range of things.

离开竞选活动后，我做了很多事情。

I’ve been picking up my tennis game again.

我又开始打网球了。

I practiced at the Ohio State-

我在俄亥俄州立大学练习过-

You’re damn good at tennis.

你网球打得真好。

2:36:57 I was watching you-

我一直在看着你——

I used to be better, but I’m picking it up again.

我以前做得更好，但现在又恢复了。

Somebody online was trying to correctly, I think you shot a very particular angle of that video.

网上有人试图正确，我认为你拍摄了该视频的一个非常特殊的角度。

2:37:02 I think they were criticizing your backhand was weak potentially because you’re-

我认为他们批评你的反手可能很弱，因为你——

That would be fair criticism.

这将是公平的批评。

2:37:13 But it’s gotten better again.

但情况又好转了。

It’s gotten better recently.

最近已经好转了。

I’ve been playing, I’ve been practicing with the Ohio State team in the morning.

我一直在打球，早上我一直在和俄亥俄州立大学队一起训练。

They’re like number one in the country or close to it.

他们就像全国第一或接近第一。

Now the guys on the team play, but there’s a couple coaches who were recently on the team, one of whom used to be, a guy used to play within the juniors who invited me out.

现在队里的人都在比赛，但有几位教练最近才加入球队，其中一位曾经是，一个曾经在青年队踢球的人，他邀请我出去。

So I hit with them in the mornings alongside the team.

所以我早上和团队一起和他们一起打球。

My goal-

我的目标——

Oh, don’t say it.

哦，别说了。

I should be careful here.

我在这里应该小心。

2:37:38 Oh no, my hips are telling others, so I’ve been playing so many days a week-

哦不，我的臀部正在告诉别人，所以我一周打了这么多天——

No, no, please don’t.

不，不，请不要。

…

……

2:37:46 that I set a goal for myself to play in a particular tournament, but we’ll see if that happens or not.

我为自己设定了参加特定锦标赛的目标，但我们会看看这是否会发生。

No, no.

不，不。

But regardless if it’s been fun to get back into tennis, I was an executive producer in a movie, something I’ve never done before.

但不管重返网球是否有趣，我还是一部电影的执行制片人，这是我以前从未做过的事情。

2:37:51 It was called City of Dreams.

它被称为梦想之城。

It’s about a story of a young man who was trafficked into the United States.

这是关于一个年轻人被拐卖到美国的故事。

It’s a thriller, it’s a very cool movie to be a part of.

这是一部惊悚片，参与其中是一部非常酷的电影。

I have actually started a couple companies, one company in particular that I think is going to be significant this year, guiding some of the other businesses that I’ve gotten off the ground in the past.

事实上，我已经创办了几家公司，尤其是其中一家我认为今年会很重要的公司，它指导着我过去开展的其他一些业务。

So for me, I’m re-energized now where I was involved in the thick of politics for a full year there.

所以对我来说，我现在重新充满活力，在那里我参与了整整一年的政治活动。

And getting a little bit of oxygen outside of politics, doing some things in the private sector has actually given me a renewed sense of energy to get back into driving change through public service.

在政治之外获得一点氧气，在私营部门做一些事情实际上给了我一种新的能量感，让我重新通过公共服务推动变革。

Well, it’s been fun watching you do all these fascinating things, but I do hope that you have a future in politics as well, because it’s nice to have somebody that has rigorously developed their ideas and is honest about presenting them and is willing to debate those ideas out in public space.

嗯，看着你做所有这些令人着迷的事情很有趣，但我确实希望你在政治上也有未来，因为有人严格地发展了自己的想法，诚实地提出这些想法，并愿意在公共场所辩论这些想法，这真是太好了。

2:38:38 So I would love for you and people like you to represent the future of American politics.

所以我希望你和像你这样的人能够代表美国政治的未来。

So Vivek, thank you so much.

维韦克，非常感谢你。

For every time I’m swiveling this chair, I’m thinking of Thomas Jefferson.

每次我转动这把椅子时，我都会想起托马斯·杰斐逊。

It’s good.

很好。

2:39:11 That was my goal.

这就是我的目标。

So big shout out to Thomas Jefferson for the swivel chair, and thank you so much for talking today, Vivek.

非常感谢托马斯·杰斐逊（Thomas Jefferson）提供的转椅，非常感谢你今天的发言，维韦克（Vivek）。

2:39:12 This was fun.

这很有趣。

Thank you, man.

谢谢你，伙计。

2:39:18 One final fact on Thomas Jefferson, whether you cut this or not.

关于托马斯·杰斐逊的最后一个事实，无论你是否删掉这一点。

Of course.

当然。

He wrote 16,000 essays in his life, letters, right?

他一生写了16000篇文章、信件，对吗？

2:39:23 So he said, “I’ve written four books in four years.” That is nothing compared to how prolific this guy was.

所以他说，“我在四年内写了四本书。”与这个家伙的多产相比，这根本不算什么。

Anyway, anyway, good stuff, man.

无论如何，无论如何，好东西，伙计。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Neither of us will ever live up to anything close to Thomas Jefferson.

我们俩都永远不会达到托马斯·杰斐逊的水平。

I love your curiosity, man.

我喜欢你的好奇心，伙计。

2:39:41 Thanks for reading the book and appreciated your feedback on it as well.

感谢您阅读这本书，也感谢您对此的反馈。

And hopefully we’ll do this again sometime.

希望我们有一天能再次这样做。

Yep.

是的。

2:39:47 Thank you brother.

谢谢兄弟。

Thanks dude.

谢谢老兄。

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Vivek Ramaswamy.

感谢您收听与维韦克·拉马斯瓦米的对话。

2:39:50 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

为了支持这个播客，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

And now let me leave you with some words from George Orwell.

现在让我向你们传达乔治·奥威尔的话。

” Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.” Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

“政治语言的目的是让谎言听起来更真实，让谋杀听起来更受人尊敬，让纯粹的风声显得更坚实。”感谢您的聆听，并希望下次再见。