韦亚斯·柳列维丘斯：共产主义、马克思主义、纳粹主义、斯大林、毛泽东与希特勒

And the outcome here is a horrific man-made famine, not a natural disaster, not bad harvests, but a man-made famine as a result of then the compulsion that gets used by the Soviet state to extract those resources, cordoning off the area, not allowing starving people to escape.

这里的结果是一场可怕的人为饥荒，不是自然灾害，也不是歉收，而是人为饥荒，这是苏联国家强制开采这些资源的结果，封锁了该地区，不让饥饿的人们逃脱。

00:18 You put very well some of the implications of this case study in how things look in the abstract versus in practice, and those phenomena were going to haunt the rest of the experience of the Soviet Union.

你很好地阐述了这个案例研究的一些含义，即事物在抽象与实践中的表现，这些现象将困扰苏联的其他经验。

The whole notion that up and down the chain of command, everybody is falsifying or tinkering with or purifying the statistics or their reports in order not to look bad and not to have vengeance visited upon them reaches the point where nobody, in spite of the pretense of comprehensive knowledge, there’s a state planning agency that creates five-year plans for the economy as a whole and which is supposed to have accurate statistics, all of this is founded upon a foundation of sand.

整个指挥链上上下下，每个人都在伪造、修改或净化统计数据或他们的报告，以免看起来很糟糕，也不想遭到报复，以至于没有一个国家计划机构，尽管假装知识渊博，为整个经济制定五年计划，并应该有准确的统计数据，所有这一切都是建立在沙子的基础上的。

01:15 A deliberate plan to bring class conflict and bring civil war and then heighten it in the countryside does damage, and not least of that is this phenomenon of a negative selection.

蓄意引发阶级冲突、内战，然后在农村加剧的计划确实会造成损害，尤其是这种负面选择现象。

Those who have most enterprise, those who are most entrepreneurial, those who have most self-discipline, those who are best organized will be winnowed again and again and again, sending the message that mediocrity is comparatively much safer than talent.

那些最有进取心的人、最有进取心的人、最自律的人、最有组织性的人，将被一次又一次地筛选出来，传达出这样的信息：平庸比才华相对安全得多。

01:49 Hitler and Himmler envisioned permanent war on the Eastern Front, not a peace treaty, not a settlement, not a border, but a constant moving of the border every generation hundreds of miles east in order to keep winning more and more living space and with analogy to other frontiers to always give more fighting experience and more training and aggression to generation after generation of German soldiers.

希特勒和希姆莱设想在东线进行永久战争，不是和平条约，不是解决方案，不是边界，而是每一代人不断地将边界向东移动数百英里，以不断赢得越来越多的生存空间，并与其他边境类似，始终为一代又一代的德国士兵提供更多的战斗经验、更多的训练和侵略。

In terms of nightmarish visions, this one’s right up there.

就噩梦般的幻象而言，这个就在那里。

The following is a conversation with Vejas Liulevicius, a historian specializing in Germany and Eastern Europe.

以下是与专门研究德国和东欧的历史学家 Vejas Liulevicius 的对话。

02:29 He has lectured extensively on the rise, the reign, and the fall of communism.

他就共产主义的兴起、统治和垮台发表了广泛的演讲。

Our discussion goes deep on this, the very heaviest of topics, the communist ideology that has led to over 100 million deaths in the 20th century.

我们的讨论深入探讨了这个最沉重的话题，即导致 20 世纪超过 1 亿人死亡的共产主义意识形态。

We also discuss Hitler, Nazi ideology, and World War II.

我们还讨论希特勒、纳粹意识形态和第二次世界大战。

This is the Lex Fridman Podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

为了支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

And now, dear friends, here’s Vejas Liulevicius.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是 Vejas Liulevicius。

03:10 Let’s start with Karl Marx.

让我们从卡尔·马克思开始。

What were the central ideas of Marx that lay the foundation of communism?

奠定共产主义基础的马克思的中心思想是什么？

I think there were several key ideas that Marx deployed that were destined to have such an impact, and in some ways they were actually kind of contradictory.

我认为马克思所运用的几个关键思想注定会产生如此大的影响，但在某些方面它们实际上是相互矛盾的。

03:17 On the one hand, Marx insisted that history has a purpose.

一方面，马克思坚持认为历史是有目的的。

That history is not just random events, but that rather it’s history, we might say, with a capital H, history moving in a deliberate direction, history having a goal, a direction that it was predestined to move in.

历史不仅仅是随机事件，而是历史，我们可以说，大写的H，历史朝着一个有意的方向发展，历史有一个目标，一个它注定要走向的方向。

03:47 At the same time, in the Communist Manifesto, Karl Marx and his colleague Friedrich Engels also suggested that there was a role for special individuals who might even if history was still moving in this predetermined direction, might give it an extra push, might play a heroic role in that process.

与此同时，卡尔·马克思和他的同事弗里德里希·恩格斯在《共产党宣言》中也提出，特殊的个人可以发挥作用，即使历史仍然朝着这个预定的方向前进，他们也可能会给予它额外的推动力，可能会在这个过程中发挥英雄的作用。

And I think that these two ideas added together, the notion that there is a science of revolution that suggests that you can move in a deliberate and meaningful, rational way towards the end of history and the resolution of all conflicts, a total liberation of the human person and that moreover that was inevitable, that that was pre-programmed and destined in the order of things, when you add to that the notion that there’s also room for heroism and the individual role, this ended up being tremendously powerful as a combination.

我认为，这两个想法加在一起，即存在一门革命科学的概念，它表明你可以以一种深思熟虑、有意义、理性的方式走向历史的终结和所有冲突的解决，人类的彻底解放，而且这是不可避免的，这是预先编程和注定的事情的顺序，当你加上还有英雄主义和个人角色的空间的概念时，这最终作为一个组合变得非常强大。

04:43 Earlier thinkers who were socialists had already dreamt of or projected futures where all conflict would be resolved and human life would achieve some sort of perfection.

早期的社会主义思想家已经梦想或预测了未来，所有冲突都将得到解决，人类生活将达到某种完美。

Marx added these other elements that made it far more powerful than the earlier versions that he decried as merely utopian socialism.

马克思添加了这些其他元素，使其比他谴责为空想社会主义的早期版本更加强大。

So there’s a million questions I could ask there.

所以我可以在那里问一百万个问题。

05:05 So on the utopian side.

所以在乌托邦方面。

So there is a utopian component to the way he tried to conceive of his ideas.

因此，他试图构想他的想法的方式有一个乌托邦的成分。

Yeah, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

05:16 I mean, first of all, one has to stress, Marx would’ve gotten extremely upset at this point in the conversation because to call someone a utopian was precisely to argue that you’re not scientific, you’re not rational, you are not laying out the iron laws of history.

我的意思是，首先，必须强调，马克思在谈话的这一点上会感到非常不安，因为称某人为乌托邦恰恰是在论证你不科学，你不理性，你没有制定历史的铁律。

You’re merely hoping for the best.

你只是希望得到最好的结果。

And that might be laudable, but it was fundamentally unrealistic.

这或许值得称赞，但从根本上说是不现实的。

05:36 That said, hidden among Marx’s insistence that there are laws and structures as history moves through class conflict, modes of production towards its ultimate goal of a comprehensive final revolution that will see all exploitation overthrown and people finally being freed from necessity, smuggled in among those things are most definitely utopian elements.

也就是说，马克思坚持认为，随着历史通过阶级冲突，生产方式将走向全面的最终革命的最终目标，其中存在着规律和结构，这场革命将推翻所有剥削，使人们最终从必然性中解放出来，这些东西中偷偷混入的东西绝对是乌托邦元素。

And there, they come especially at the end in which Marx sketches the notion of what things will look like after the revolution has resolved all problems.

在那里，它们尤其出现在马克思勾画出革命解决了所有问题之后事情将会是什么样子的概念的结尾。

06:18 There, vagueness sets in.

在那里，模糊性出现了。

It’s clear that it’s a blessed state that’s being talked about.

显然，这是一种被祝福的状态。

People no longer exploiting one another, people no longer subject to necessity or poverty, but instead enjoying all of the productivity of industrialization that hitherto had been put to private profit now collectively owned and deployed.

人们不再互相剥削，人们不再受困于必需品或贫困，而是享受工业化的所有生产力，而这些生产力迄今为止一直被用于私人利润，现在已被集体所有和部署。

The notion that one will be able to work at one job in the morning and then engage in leisure activity at yet another fulfilling job in the afternoon.

人们能够在早上从事一份工作，然后在下午从事另一项令人满意的工作的休闲活动。

All of this free of any contradictions, free of necessity, free of the ordinary irritations that we experience in our the ordinary lives, that’s deeply utopian.

所有这一切都没有任何矛盾，没有必然性，没有我们在日常生活中经历的普通烦恼，这是深深的乌托邦。

The difference was that Marx charted a route towards that outcome that presented itself as cutting-edge science and moreover having the full credibility that science commanded so much, especially in the 19th and early 20th century.

不同之处在于，马克思描绘了一条通往这一结果的道路，这条道路将自己呈现为尖端科学，而且拥有科学所具有的充分可信度，尤其是在 19 世纪和 20 世纪初。

So there is a long journey from capitalism to communism that includes a lot of problems.

所以从资本主义到共产主义是一个漫长的过程，其中存在很多问题。

07:22 He thought once you resolve the problems, all the complexities of human interactions, the friction, the problems will be gone.

他认为一旦解决了问题，人类互动的所有复杂性、摩擦、问题都会消失。

To the extent that they were based on inequalities and on man’s exploitation of man, the result was supposed to be a resolution of all of this.

在某种程度上，它们是基于不平等和人对人的剥削，其结果应该是所有这一切的解决。

07:37 And inevitably, when you talk about the history of communism, you have to include the fact that this often tragic and dramatic history produced a lot of jokes.

不可避免地，当你谈论共产主义历史时，你必须包括这样一个事实：这段经常悲惨而戏剧性的历史产生了很多笑话。

Jokes that were in part reactions sometimes to the ideological claims made by people like Marx.

这些笑话有时部分是对马克思等人提出的意识形态主张的反应。

And one of the famous jokes was that what’s the difference between capitalism and communism?

著名的笑话之一是资本主义和共产主义有什么区别？

And the joke’s answer was capitalism is the exploitation of man by man and communism is the exact opposite.

这个笑话的答案是，资本主义是人对人的剥削，而共产主义则恰恰相反。

Yeah, you actually have electron humor.

是的，你确实有电子幽默。

08:18 I love it.

我喜欢它。

And you deliver in such a dry, beautiful way.

你以一种如此干巴巴、美丽的方式表达。

Okay, there’s again, a million questions.

好吧，又是一百万个问题。

So you outline a set of contradictions, but it’s interesting to talk about his view.

所以你概述了一系列矛盾，但谈论他的观点很有趣。

For example, what was Marx’s view of history?

例如，马克思的历史观是什么？

Marx had been a student of Hegel.

马克思是黑格尔的学生。

08:37 And Hegel as a German idealist philosopher had announced very definitively that history has a purpose.

黑格尔作为德国唯心主义哲学家，非常明确地宣布历史是有目的的。

History is not a collection of random facts.

历史不是随机事实的集合。

And as an idealist, he proposed that the true movement of history, the true meaning of history, what made history, history with a capital H, something that’s transcendent and meaningful was that it was the working out of an idea through different civilizations, different stages of historical development.

作为一个唯心主义者，他提出，历史的真正运动、历史的真正意义、历史、大写H的历史之所以是超然的、有意义的，是因为它是一个思想通过不同文明、不同历史发展阶段而形成的。

And that idea was the idea of human freedom.

这个想法就是人类自由的想法。

So it was not individuals or great thinkers alone making history and having an impact.

因此，创造历史并产生影响的不仅仅是个人或伟大的思想家。

It was the idea itself striving to come to fruition, striving to come to an evermore perfect realization.

这个想法本身正在努力实现，努力实现更加完美的实现。

09:28 In the case of Hegel, in this very Prussian and German context, he identified the realization of freedom also with the growth of the state because he thought that governments are the ones that are going to be able to deliver on laws and on the ideal of a state of the rule of law, in German the Rechtsstaat.

就黑格尔而言，在普鲁士和德国的背景下，他将自由的实现也等同于国家的发展，因为他认为政府将能够实现法律和法治国家理想（德语为Rechtsstaat）。

That was a noble dream.

那是一个崇高的梦想。

At the same time, as we recognize from our perspective, state power has been put to all sorts of purposes besides guaranteeing the rule of law in our own times.

与此同时，正如我们从我们的角度认识到的那样，在我们这个时代，国家权力除了保障法治之外，还被用于各种目的。

10:01 What Marx did was to take this characteristic insistence of Hegel that history is moving in a meaningful and discernible way towards the realization of an idea and flipped it on its head.

马克思所做的就是采用了黑格尔这一独特的坚持，即历史正在以一种有意义的、可辨别的方式走向实现一个理念，并彻底颠覆了它。

Marx insisted that Hegel had so much that was right in his thinking, but what he had neglected to keep in mind was that in fact, history is based on matter.

马克思坚称黑格尔的思想有很多正确之处，但他忽略了一点：事实上，历史是建立在物质基础上的。

So hence, dialectical materialism, dialectical referring to things proceeding by clashes or conflict towards an ever greater realization of some essential idea.

因此，辩证唯物主义，辩证地指的是事物通过冲突或冲突而进展，以实现某些基本理念的更大实现。

10:42 And so Marx adapts a lot of ideas of Hegel.

因此马克思借鉴了黑格尔的很多思想。

You can recognize entire rhetorical maneuvers that are indebted to that earlier training, but now taken in a very different direction.

你可以认出所有的修辞技巧都归功于早期的训练，但现在采取了一个非常不同的方向。

What remained though was the confidence of being on the right side of history.

但剩下的就是站在历史正确一边的信心。

And there are few things that are as intoxicating as being convinced that your actions not only are right in the abstract, but are also destined to be successful.

没有什么比确信你的行为不仅在理论上是正确的，而且注定会成功更令人陶醉的了。

And also that you have the rigor of science backing you in your journey towards the truth.

而且，在你走向真理的旅程中，有严谨的科学支持你。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

11:21 So Engels, when he gives the graveside eulogy for his beloved friend Marx, claims that Marx is essentially the Darwin of history, the Darwin of history.

因此，恩格斯在为他挚爱的朋友马克思在墓地致悼词时声称，马克思本质上是历史的达尔文，历史的达尔文。

That he had done for the world of politics and of human history what Darwin had done with this theory of evolution, understanding the hidden mechanism, understanding the laws that are at work and that make that whole process meaningful rather than just one damn thing after another.

他为政治世界和人类历史所做的事情就像达尔文在进化论中所做的那样，理解了隐藏的机制，理解了正在起作用的法则，并使整个过程变得有意义，而不仅仅是一件又一件该死的事情。

What about the sort of famous line that history of all existing societies is the history of class struggles?

一切现存社会的历史都是阶级斗争的历史这句名言又如何呢？

11:59 So what about this conception of history as a history of class struggle?

那么，作为阶级斗争史的历史观又如何呢？

Well, so this was the mode of force that Karl Marx and Engels saw driving the historical process forward.

嗯，这就是卡尔·马克思和恩格斯所看到的推动历史进程前进的力量模式。

12:10 And it’s important to keep in mind that class conflict doesn’t just mean revolutions, revolts, peasant uprisings.

重要的是要记住，阶级冲突不仅仅意味着革命、叛乱、农民起义。

It’s the totality of frictions and of clashes, conflicts of interest that appear in any society.

这是任何社会中都会出现的摩擦、冲突、利益冲突的总和。

12:34 And so Marx was able in this spirit that he avowed was very scientific to demarcate stages of historical transformation, primitive communism in the prehistoric period, then moving towards what was called state slavery.

因此，马克思能够本着他所宣称的非常科学的精神来划分历史转型的阶段，即史前时期的原始共产主义，然后走向所谓的国家奴隶制。

That’s to say the early civilizations deploying human resources and ordering them by all powerful monarchs.

也就是说，早期文明是由所有强大的君主来调配人力资源并指挥的。

Then private slavery in the ancient period.

然后是古代的私人奴隶制。

And then moving to feudalism in the Middle Ages.

然后转向中世纪的封建主义。

And then here’s where Marx is able to deliver a pronouncement about his own times, seeing that the present day is the penultimate, the next to last stage of this historical development, because the feudal system of the Middle Ages and the dominance of the aristocracy has been overcome, has been displaced by the often heroic achievements, astonishing achievements in commerce and in world-building of the middle class, the bourgeoisie, who have taken the world into their own hands and are engaged in class conflict with the class below them, which is the working class or the proletariat.

在这里，马克思能够发表关于他自己时代的声明，他看到今天是这一历史发展的倒数第二个、倒数第二个阶段，因为中世纪的封建制度和贵族统治已经被克服，已经被中产阶级、资产阶级在商业和世界建设中经常取得的英雄成就、惊人成就所取代，他们将世界掌握在自己手中，并与资产阶级进行阶级冲突。他们下面的阶级，即工人阶级或无产阶级。

13:48 And so this sort of conflict also, by the way, obtains within classes, so the bourgeoisie are going to be gravediggers Marx announces of their own supremacy because they’re also competing against one another.

顺便说一句，这种冲突也在阶级内部发生，所以资产阶级将成为马克思宣称自己至高无上的掘墓人，因为他们也在相互竞争。

And members who don’t survive that competition get pressed down into the subordinate working class, which grows and grows and grows to the point where at some future moment, the inevitable explosion will come and a swift revolution will overturn this penultimate stage of human history and usher in instead the dictatorship of the working class and then the abolition of all classes because with only one class remaining, everyone is finally unified and without those internal contradictions that had marked class conflict before.

而那些在竞争中未能生存下来的成员，就会被压入从属的工人阶级，这个工人阶级不断壮大，不断壮大，直到在未来的某个时刻，不可避免的爆炸将会到来，一场迅速的革命将推翻人类历史的倒数第二阶段，并迎来工人阶级的专政，然后废除所有阶级，因为只剩下一个阶级，每个人最终都统一了，不再有那些以前标志着阶级冲突的内部矛盾。

The dictatorship of the working class is an interesting term.

工人阶级专政是一个有趣的术语。

14:43 So what is the role of revolution in history?

那么革命在历史中的作用是什么？

So this in particular for Marx, I think is a really key moment, which is what makes that such a good question.

所以我认为这对于马克思来说尤其重要，这也是一个很好的问题。

14:50 In his vision, the epic narrative that he’s presenting to us, revolution is key.

在他的愿景中，在他向我们呈现的史诗般的叙述中，革命是关键。

It’s not enough to have evolutionary change.

仅有进化性的改变是不够的。

It’s not a question of compromises.

这不是妥协的问题。

It’s not a case of bargaining or balancing interests.

这不是讨价还价或平衡利益的情况。

Revolution is necessary as part of the process of a subjugated class coming to awareness of its own historical role.

作为被征服阶级认识到自己的历史角色的过程的一部分，革命是必要的。

And when we get to the proletariat, this working class in its entirety to whom Marx assigns this epic Promethean role of being the ones who are going to liberate all of humanity, a class that is universal in its interests and in the sort of role in salvation history that they’ll be playing in this secular framework, they need revolution and the experience of revolution in order to come into their own.

当我们谈到无产阶级时，这个工人阶级整体上被马克思赋予了这个史诗般的普罗米修斯式的角色，即解放全人类的人，一个具有普遍利益的阶级，以及他们将在世俗框架中扮演的救赎历史中的角色，他们需要革命和革命的经验，才能成为自己的角色。

Because without it, you’ll only have half-hearted compromise and something less than the consciousness that they then need in order to rule, to administer, and to play the historical role that they’re fated to have.

因为如果没有它，你只会有半心半意的妥协，并且缺乏他们随后需要的意识来统治、管理和扮演他们注定要扮演的历史角色。

How did he conceive of a revolution, potentially a violent revolution stabilizing itself into something where the working class was able to rule?

他如何构想一场革命，一场可能是一场暴力革命，使自己稳定下来，成为工人阶级能够统治的地方？

That’s where things become a good deal less detailed in his and Engels accounts.

这就是他和恩格斯的叙述中事情变得不那么详细的地方。

16:15 The answer that they proposed in part was this is for the future to determine, so all of the details will be settled later.

他们提出的部分答案是，这是由未来决定的，所以所有的细节都将在以后解决。

I think there was allied to this was a tremendous confidence in some very 19 century ideas about how society could be administered and what made for orderly society in a way where if the right infrastructure was in place, you might expect society to kind of run itself without the need for micromanagement from above.

我认为与此相关的是对 19 世纪的一些想法的巨大信心，这些想法涉及如何管理社会以及如何构建有序的社会，如果正确的基础设施到位，你可能会期望社会能够自行运行，而不需要来自上层的微观管理。

16:56 And hence, we arrive at Marx’s tantalizing promise that there will be a period where it will be necessary to have centralized control and there might have to be, as he puts it, despotic inroads against property in order to bring this revolution to pass.

因此，我们得到了马克思诱人的承诺，即将会有一个时期，需要集中控制，并且正如他所说，可能必须对财产进行专制入侵，才能实现这场革命。

But then afterwards, the state, because it represents everybody rather than representing particular class interests that are in conflict with other classes, the state will eventually wither away, so there won’t be need for it.

但后来呢，国家，因为它代表的是所有人，而不是代表与其他阶级有冲突的特定阶级利益，所以国家最终会消亡，就不需要它了。

17:28 Now, that’s not to say that pure stasis arrives or that the stabilization equals being frozen in time.

现在，这并不是说纯粹的停滞已经到来，也不是说稳定就等于时间被冻结。

It’s not as if that is what things will look like.

事情似乎并非如此。

But instead, the big issues will be settled and henceforth people will be able to enjoy lives of, as he would consider it, in authentic freedom without necessity, without poverty as a result of this blessed state that’s been arrived at.

但相反，重大问题将得到解决，从此人们将能够享受他所认为的真正的自由生活，没有必要，也不会因为已经达到的这种幸福状态而感到贫困。

Despotic inroads against property.

对财产的专制侵犯。

17:54 Did he elaborate on the despotic inroads?

他详细阐述了专制的入侵吗？

Dispossession, dispossession of the middle classes and of the bourgeoisie.

剥夺，剥夺中产阶级和资产阶级。

18:02 In his model, humanity is never standing still, right?

在他的模型中，人类永远不会停滞不前，对吗？

So he’d probably argue in this dynamic vision of how history unfolds that there’s always conflict and it’s always moving, propelling history forward towards its predestined ending.

因此，他可能会在历史如何展开的动态视野中辩称，总是存在冲突，而且总是在前进，推动历史朝着预定的结局前进。

18:23 In the way he saw this climax was that as things did not stay the same, the condition of the working class was constantly getting worse and hence their revolutionary potential was growing.

在他看来，这个高潮是因为事情并没有一成不变，工人阶级的处境不断恶化，因此他们的革命潜力不断增长。

And at the same time, the expropriators, the bourgeoisie, were also facing diminishing returns as they competed against one another with more and more wealth concentrated in fewer and fewer hands and more and more elements of what had been the middle class detached from the ruling class and being pressed down into the working class.

与此同时，剥夺者、资产阶级也面临着收益递减的问题，因为他们相互竞争，越来越多的财富集中在越来越少的人手中，越来越多的中产阶级脱离了统治阶级，被压入工人阶级。

For Marx, this is really a key part.

对于马克思来说，这确实是一个关键的部分。

I mean, it’s a key part of this whole ratchet effect that’s going to produce this final historical explosion.

我的意思是，这是整个棘轮效应的关键部分，将产生最后的历史性爆炸。

19:14 And in German, the word given to that process was verehlendung, which is very evocative.

在德语中，描述这一过程的词是 verehlendung，这是非常令人回味的。

Elend means misery, so it’s the growing misery.

Elend的意思是痛苦，所以它是日益增长的痛苦。

When this gets translated into English, the results are never quite as evocative or satisfactory.

当它被翻译成英语时，结果永远不会那么令人回味或令人满意。

The words that get used are immiseration or pauperization, meaning more and more people are being turned into paupers.

常用的词是贫困化或贫困化，意思是越来越多的人变成了穷人。

But for Marx, that prediction is really key.

但对于马克思来说，这个预测确实很关键。

19:44 And even in his own lifetime, there were already hints that in fact, if you looked sociologically at the really developed working classes in places like Great Britain or Germany, that process was not playing out as he had expected.

即使在他自己的一生中，也已经有迹象表明，事实上，如果你从社会学角度观察英国或德国等地真正发达的工人阶级，这个过程并没有按照他的预期进行。

In fact, although there had been enormous dislocations and tremendous suffering in the early chaotic, Wild West stages of capitalism and of industrialization, there had been reform movements as well.

事实上，尽管在资本主义和工业化的早期混乱、狂野西部阶段出现了巨大的混乱和巨大的痛苦，但也发生了改革运动。

And there had been unions which had sought to carve out rules and agreements with employers for how the conditions under which workers labored might be ameliorated.

也有工会试图与雇主制定规则和协议，以改善工人的劳动条件。

20:28 Moreover, the middle class rather than dwindling and dwindling, seemed to actually be strengthening and growing in numbers or the appearance of new kinds of people like white-collar workers or technical experts.

此外，中产阶级非但没有减少，反而在数量上不断壮大，或者白领或技术专家等新型人群的出现。

So already in Marx’s own lifetime, and then especially in what follows Marx’s lifetime, this becomes a real problem because it puts a stick into the spokes of this particular historical prediction.

因此，在马克思自己的一生中，尤其是在马克思一生之后，这已经成为一个真正的问题，因为它给这一特定的历史预测带来了影响。

Can you speak to this realm of ideas, which is fascinating, this battle of big ideas in the 19th century.

您能谈谈这个令人着迷的思想领域吗？19 世纪的这场大思想之战。

20:53 What are the ideas that were swimming around here?

这里流传着哪些想法？

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

21:03 Well, to describe the 19th century as sort of an age of ideologies is very apt because Europe is being wracked and being put through the wringer of nationalism, demands for self-expression of peoples who earlier have been in empires or under monarchical rule, demands to redraw the map.

嗯，将 19 世纪描述为意识形态的时代是非常恰当的，因为欧洲正在遭受民族主义的摧残和折磨，早期在帝国或君主统治下的人民要求自我表达，要求重新绘制地图。

The tremendous transformations of the Industrial Revolution meant that in the course of about a generation, you would’ve seen the world around you change in ways that made it entirely unfamiliar.

工业革命的巨大变革意味着，在大约一代人的时间里，你会看到周围的世界发生了前所未有的变化。

You’d be able to travel across the landscape at speeds that have been unthinkable when you were a child.

你将能够以小时候难以想象的速度穿越这片土地。

So it’s enormous change and demands for yet more change.

所以这是巨大的变化，并且需要更多的变化。

21:53 And so it’s a great mix of ideas, ideologies, the old and the new religious ideas, religious revivals, as well as demands for secularization.

因此，这是思想、意识形态、新旧宗教观念、宗教复兴以及世俗化要求的完美结合。

And stepping into all of this are Marx and Engels together in what has been called, I think with justice, one of the most important and influential intellectual partnerships of history.

马克思和恩格斯共同迈进了这一切，我认为这是历史上最重要和最有影响力的知识分子伙伴关系之一。

22:22 They were very different men.

他们是非常不同的人。

They were both German by origin.

他们都是德国人。

Marx had trained as an academic.

马克思受过学者训练。

He had married the daughter of a baron.

他娶了一位男爵的女儿。

Because of his radical ideas, he had foreclosed or just found himself cut off from a possible academic career and went the route of radical journalism.

由于他的激进思想，他已经取消了自己的赎回权，或者刚刚发现自己与可能的学术生涯隔绝了，并走上了激进新闻的道路。

Engels was very different.

恩格斯则非常不同。

Engels was the son of an industrialist and the family owned factories in Germany and in England.

恩格斯是一位实业家的儿子，家族在德国和英国拥有工厂。

So he was most definitely not a member of the proletariat that he and Marx were celebrating as so significant in their future historical role.

因此，他绝对不是他和马克思所庆祝的在未来历史角色中如此重要的无产阶级成员。

23:03 There were also huge differences in character between these men.

这些人之间的性格也存在巨大差异。

Marx, when people met him, they were astonished by his energy and his dynamism.

马克思，当人们见到他时，他们对他的精力和活力感到惊讶。

They also saw him as a man who felt determined to dominate arguments.

他们还认为他是一个决心主导争论的人。

He wanted to win arguments and was not one to settle for compromise or a middle road.

他想赢得争论，而不是妥协或走中间道路的人。

He was disorderly in his personal habits.

他的个人习惯很混乱。

We might mention among other things, that he impregnated the family maid and didn’t accept responsibility for the child.

我们可能会提到，除其他外，他使家庭女佣怀孕，并且不承担抚养孩子的责任。

He was also not inclined to undertake regular employment in order to support his growing family.

他也不愿意从事固定工作来养活日益壮大的家庭。

That’s where Engels came in.

这就是恩格斯登场的地方。

Engels essentially from his family fortune and then from his journalism afterwards supported both himself and the Marx family for decades.

恩格斯主要靠他的家族财富和后来的新闻事业养活了他自己和马克思家族数十年。

And so in a sense, Engels made things happen.

因此，从某种意义上说，恩格斯让事情发生了。

24:04 In the mysterious way that friendships work, the very differences between these men made them formidable as a dynamic duo because they balanced off one another’s idiosyncrasies and turned what might’ve been faults into potential strengths.

友谊以一种神秘的方式运作，这些人之间的差异使他们成为一个充满活力的二人组，因为他们平衡了彼此的特质，并将可能的缺点转化为潜在的优势。

British historian, A.J.P.

英国历史学家 A.J.P.

Taylor always has a lovely turn of phrase, even when he’s wrong about a historical issue.

泰勒总是有一个可爱的措辞，即使他在历史问题上犯了错误。

In this case, he was right.

在这种情况下，他是对的。

He said that Engels had charm and brilliance, Marx was the genius.

他说恩格斯有魅力、有才华，马克思是天才。

And Engels saw himself as definitely the junior partner in this relationship.

恩格斯认为自己绝对是这段关系中的小伙伴。

But here’s the paradox.

但这就是悖论。

Without Engels, pretty clearly Marx would not have gone on to have the sort of lasting historical impact in the world of ideas that he had.

如果没有恩格斯，马克思显然不会像他那样对思想世界产生持久的历史影响。

Just to throw in the mix, there’s interesting characters swimming around.

只是为了加入其中，还有一些有趣的角色在周围游动。

24:49 So you have Darwin.

所以你有达尔文。

He has a…

他有一个……

I mean, it’s difficult to characterize the level of impact he had.

我的意思是，很难描述他的影响力。

Even just in the religious context, it challenges our conception of who we are as humans.

即使只是在宗教背景下，它也挑战了我们作为人类的概念。

There’s Nietzsche who’s also, I don’t know, hanging around the area.

我不知道尼采也在这个地区闲逛。

On the Russian side, there’s Dostoevsky.

俄罗斯这边有陀思妥耶夫斯基。

So it’s interesting to ask maybe from your perspective, did these people interact in the space of ideas to where this is relevant to our discussion, or is this mostly isolated?

因此，从您的角度来看，这些人是否在与我们的讨论相关的想法空间中进行了互动，或者这基本上是孤立的？

I think that it’s a part of a great conversation.

我认为这是一次精彩对话的一部分。

25:32 I think that in their works, they’re reacting to one another.

我认为在他们的作品中，他们是在相互反应。

Dostoevsky’s thought ranges across the condition of modernity and he definitely has things to say about industrialization.

陀思妥耶夫斯基的思想涵盖了现代性的各个方面，他对工业化肯定有话要说。

I think that they react to one another in these oblique ways rather than always being at each other’s throats in direct confrontations.

我认为他们以这些间接的方式相互反应，而不是总是在直接对抗中互相争斗。

And that’s what makes the 19th century so compelling as a story just because of the sheer vitality of the arguments that are taking place in ways big and small.

这就是 19 世纪作为一个故事如此引人注目的原因，因为大大小小的争论都充满活力。

Well, we should say here, when you mentioned Karl Marx, maybe the color red comes up for people and they think the Soviet Union, maybe China, but they don’t think Germany necessarily.

好吧，我们应该在这里说，当你提到卡尔·马克思时，也许人们会想到红色，他们会想到苏联，也许会想到中国，但他们不一定会想到德国。

26:09 It’s interesting that Germany is where communism was supposed to happen.

有趣的是，德国是共产主义应该发生的地方。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

And so can you maybe speak to that tension?

那么你能谈谈这种紧张吗？

Yeah.

是的。

26:33 Yeah, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

I mean, this is definitely a factor in the entire history that we’re referencing.

我的意思是，这绝对是我们所引用的整个历史中的一个因素。

Marx and Engels never really shed their identity as Germans.

马克思和恩格斯从未真正摆脱过德国人的身份。

Many of their preconceptions, even those traces of nationalism that they had within themselves even as they were condemning nationalism as a fraud against the working class, their clearly, their entire formation had been affected by their German background.

他们的许多先入之见，甚至是他们内心的民族主义痕迹，即使他们谴责民族主义是对工人阶级的欺诈，但他们的整个形成显然都受到了德国背景的影响。

27:05 And it’s very true, as you point out, that Germany is intended to be the place where these predictions will play out, also in Britain, also in France, also eventually in the United States.

正如您所指出的，德国确实是这些预测得以实现的地方，在英国、在法国、最终也在美国。

But it’s Germany by virtue of its central location and then its rapid development later than Britain or France in industrialization give it the special role in Marx’s worldview.

但德国凭借其中心位置以及比英国或法国晚的工业化快速发展，使其在马克思的世界观中具有特殊的地位。

27:34 And so it’s a lasting irony or a central irony of this whole story that when a government establishes itself that claims to be following Marx’s prescriptions and realizing his vision, it happens in the wreckage of the Russian Empire, a place that did not match the requirements of being industrialized, developed, well on its way in this historical process.

因此，当一个声称遵循马克思的处方并实现他的愿景的政府成立时，它却发生在俄罗斯帝国的废墟上，这是整个故事的一个持久的讽刺或一个中心讽刺，这个地方不符合工业化、发展的要求，在这一历史进程中顺利前进。

And nobody knew this better than the Bolsheviks.

没有人比布尔什维克更了解这一点。

Lenin and his colleagues had a keen sense that what they were doing, exciting as it was, was a gamble.

列宁和他的同事们敏锐地意识到，他们所做的事情虽然令人兴奋，但却是一场赌博。

It was a risk because in fact, the revolution to really take hold had to seize power in Germany.

这是一个风险，因为事实上，革命要想真正站稳脚跟，就必须在德国夺取政权。

And that’s why immediately after taking power, they’re not sure they’re going to last.

这就是为什么他们在掌权后立即不确定自己是否会持续下去。

Their hope, their promise of salvation is that a workers’ revolution will erupt in Germany, defeated Germany in order to link up with the one that has been launched in this unlikely Russian location and henceforth great things will follow that do hue to Marx’s historical vision.

他们的希望，他们的救赎承诺是，一场工人革命将在德国爆发，打败德国，以便与在这个不太可能的俄罗斯地点发起的革命联系起来，从此以后，伟大的事情将会随之而来，为马克思的历史愿景增添色彩。

28:52 The last thing to mention about this is that this predominance of Germany in the thinking of Marx had two other reflections.

最后要提到的是，德国在马克思思想中的这种主导地位还有另外两个反映。

One was that German socialists and later communists organize in order to fulfill Marx’s vision and they produce something that leaves other Westerners in awe in the late 19th century.

一是德国社会主义者和后来的共产主义者为了实现马克思的愿景而组织起来，他们创造了一些让 19 世纪末的西方人敬畏的东西。

And that’s the building of a strong German workers movement and a Social Democratic Party.

这就是建立强大的德国工人运动和社会民主党。

That Social Democratic Party by 1912 is the largest party in German politics by vote.

到 1912 年，社会民主党已成为德国政坛投票权最大的政党。

And there’s the possibility they might even come to power without needing radical revolution, which again, also goes against Marx’s original vision of the necessity for a revolution.

他们甚至有可能在不需要激进革命的情况下上台，这也违背了马克思关于革命必要性的最初愿景。

Workers around the world, or rather radical socialists look with admiration and awe at what the Germans have achieved and they see themselves as trying to do what the Germans have done.

世界各地的工人，或者更确切地说是激进的社会主义者，对德国人所取得的成就充满钦佩和敬畏，他们认为自己正在努力做德国人已经做过的事情。

29:59 The final point is growing up during the Cold War, one thought that, well, if you want to represent somebody as being a communist, that person has to have a Russian accent, because Russia after all, the homeland of this form of government, the Soviet Union, that must be the point of origin.

最后一点是在冷战期间成长，人们认为，好吧，如果你想把某人描绘成共产主义者，那个人必须有俄罗斯口音，因为毕竟俄罗斯，这种政府形式的祖国，苏联，必须是起源点。

Before the Bolsheviks seized power, in order to really be a serious radical socialist, you needed to read German because you needed to read Marx, and you needed to read Kautsky, and you needed to read Bernstein and other thinkers in this tradition.

在布尔什维克夺取政权之前，为了真正成为一名严肃的激进社会主义者，你需要阅读德语，因为你需要阅读马克思，你需要阅读考茨基，你需要阅读伯恩斯坦和其他这一传统的思想家。

And it’s only after the Soviet seizure of power that this all changes.

直到苏联夺取政权后，这一切才发生了变化。

So there’s lots of Marx of that phenomenon.

因此，马克思对这一现象有很多论述。

Which is why the clash between nationalism and communism in Germany is such a fascinating aspect of history and all the different trajectories it could take.

这就是为什么德国民族主义和共产主义之间的冲突成为历史上如此迷人的一个方面，以及它可能采取的所有不同的轨迹。

30:42 And we’ll talk about it.

我们会讨论它。

If we return to the 19th century, you’ve said that Marx’s chief rival was Russian anarchist…

如果我们回到19世纪，你说过马克思的主要竞争对手是俄罗斯无政府主义者……

31:00 Marx’s chief rival was Russian anarchist Mikhail Bakunin, who famously said in 1942, “The passion for destruction is also a creative passion.” So what kind of future did Bakunin envision?

马克思的主要竞争对手是俄罗斯无政府主义者米哈伊尔·巴枯宁，他在 1942 年说过一句名言：“对破坏的热情也是一种创造的热情。”那么巴枯宁设想了什么样的未来呢？

Well, Bakunin in some things agreed with Marx, and in many others, disagreed.

嗯，巴枯宁在某些方面同意马克思，但在许多其他方面则不同意。

31:17 He was an anarchist rather than hewing to the sort of scheme of history that Marx was proposing.

他是一个无政府主义者，而不是坚持马克思所提出的那种历史纲领。

So he did see humanity as fighting a struggle for a better way of life.

所以他确实认为人类正在为更好的生活方式而奋斗。

He envisioned, as your quote suggests, that revolution and sheer confrontation and overthrow the existing state of things, not compromise, was going to be the way to get there, but his vision was very different.

正如你的引述所表明的那样，他设想革命和纯粹的对抗并推翻现有的事物状态，而不是妥协，将是实现这一目标的途径，但他的愿景非常不同。

Rather than organizing conspiratorial and hierarchical political movement, Bakunin envisioned that the ties would be far looser, that both the revolutionary movement and the future state of humanity would grow out of the free association, the anarchist thinking, the free association of individuals who rejected hierarchical thinking in their relations with one another, rejected the state as a form of organized violence, and rejected traditional religious ideas that he saw as buttressing hierarchies.

巴枯宁没有组织阴谋性和等级制的政治运动，而是设想这种联系会更加松散，革命运动和人类未来的状态都将产生于自由联合、无政府主义思想、个人的自由联合，这些个人在相互关系中拒绝等级思想，拒绝国家作为一种有组织的暴力形式，并拒绝他认为支撑等级制度的传统宗教思想。

32:26 So Bakunin is part of a broader movement of socialists and anarchists who were demanding change and envisioning really fundamental transformation, but his particular anarchist vision steers him into conflict with Marx, and he makes some prophetic remarks about the problems with the system that Marx is proposing.

因此，巴枯宁是更广泛的社会主义者和无政府主义者运动的一部分，他们要求变革并设想真正根本性的变革，但他独特的无政府主义愿景使他与马克思发生冲突，他对马克思提出的体系的问题做出了一些预言性的评论。

You should add to this that the very fact that Marx is a German by background and Bakunin is Russian adds a further nationalist or element of ethnic difference there.

你应该补充一点，马克思是德国人，而巴枯宁是俄罗斯人，这一事实进一步增加了民族主义或种族差异的因素。

Bakunin warned that a sort of creeping German authoritarianism might insinuate its way into a movement that hewed too closely to having hierarchies in the struggle to overthrow hierarchies, and his anarchist convictions are not in question here.

巴枯宁警告说，一种悄然蔓延的德国威权主义可能会潜入一场在推翻等级制度的斗争中过于依赖等级制度的运动，而他的无政府主义信念在这里并不存在问题。

They led him into conflict with Marx, and Marx railed against him, denounced him, and eventually had him expelled from The International.

他们导致他与马克思发生冲突，马克思辱骂他、谴责他，并最终将他驱逐出国际。

33:31 One of the things though that also makes Bakunin so significant is Bakunin is the first in a longer series of approaches between anarchists and communists where they try to make common cause, and you have to say that in every case, it ends badly for the anarchists, because the communist vision in particular, especially in its Leninist version, argued for discipline and a tightly organized professional revolutionary movement.

不过，这也使巴枯宁如此重要的原因之一是，巴枯宁是无政府主义者和共产主义者之间一系列较长的方法中的第一个，他们试图在这些方法中达成共同的目标，你不得不说，在任何情况下，对于无政府主义者来说，结局都很糟糕，因为共产主义的愿景，特别是在其列宁主义版本中，主张纪律和组织严密的职业革命运动。

The anarchists who sought to make common cause with communists, whether it was in the days of the Russian Revolution or the Russian Civil War, or whether it was then in the Spanish Civil War, the anarchists found themselves targeted by the communists precisely because of their skepticism about what turned out to be an absolutely key element in the Leninist prescription for a successful revolution.

那些寻求与共产主义者达成共同目标的无政府主义者，无论是在俄国革命还是俄罗斯内战时期，还是在西班牙内战时期，无政府主义者发现自己成为了共产主义者的目标，正是因为他们对列宁主义成功革命处方中的绝对关键要素持怀疑态度。

If we can take that tangent a little bit, so I guess anarchists were less organized.

如果我们能稍微偏离这个主题，那么我想无政府主义者的组织性较差。

Yeah, by definition.

是的，根据定义。

Yeah.

是的。

34:44 Why do you think anarchism hasn’t been rigorously tried in the way that communism was?

您认为为什么无政府主义没有像共产主义那样受到严格的考验？

If we just take a complete sort of tangent, in one sense, we are living in an anarchy today because the nations are in an anarchic state with each other, but why do you think there’s not been an anarchist revolution?

如果我们完全切线，从某种意义上说，我们今天生活在无政府状态中，因为各国之间都处于无政府状态，但你认为为什么没有发生无政府主义革命呢？

Well, I think that probably some anarchists would beg to differ, right?

好吧，我认为一些无政府主义者可能会提出不同意见，对吧？

35:11 They would see communes in Spain during the Spanish Civil War as an example of trying to put anarchist ideas into place.

他们将西班牙内战期间西班牙的公社视为试图将无政府主义思想落实到位的例子。

Bakunin flitted from one area of unrest to another, hoping to be in on finally the founding of the sort of free communes that he had in mind.

巴枯宁从一个动乱地区奔赴另一个地区，希望最终能参与到他所设想的那种自由公社的建立中。

35:36 Another key point in all of this is that anarchy means something different to different people as a term, and so when you point out quite correctly that we have an anarchic international situation, that’s the Hobbesian model of the war of all against all, where man is a wolf to man.

所有这一切的另一个关键点是，“无政府状态”这个词对于不同的人来说意味着不同的东西，所以当你非常正确地指出我们面临着无政府状态的国际局势时，这就是所有人反对所有人的战争的霍布斯模式，在这种模式中，人对人是狼。

Generally, except if you’re talking about nihilists in the Russian revolutionary tradition, anarchists see anarchy as a blessed state and one where finally, people will be freed from the distorting influence of hierarchies, traditional beliefs, subjugation, inequalities.

一般来说，除非你谈论的是俄罗斯革命传统中的虚无主义者，否则无政府主义者将无政府状态视为一种幸福的状态，最终，人们将摆脱等级制度、传统信仰、征服和不平等的扭曲影响。

So for them, anarchy growing out of the liberation of the human being is seen as a positive good and peaceful.

因此，对他们来说，因人类解放而产生的无政府状态被视为积极的善与和平。

36:24 Now, that’s at odds with the prescription of someone like Bakunin for how to get there.

现在，这与巴枯宁等人关于如何到达那里的处方不一致。

He sees overthrow as being necessary on the route to that, but as we point out, it’s absolutely key to this entire dynamic that to be an anarchist means that your efforts are not going to be organized the way a disciplined and tightly organized revolutionary movement would be.

他认为推翻政权是实现这一目标的必要条件，但正如我们所指出的，成为一个无政府主义者意味着你的努力不会像一场纪律严明、组织严密的革命运动那样组织起来，这对整个动态来说绝对是关键。

Yeah, it’s an interesting stretch that a violent revolution will take us to a place of no violence or very little violence.

是的，这是一个有趣的延伸，暴力革命将把我们带到一个没有暴力或暴力很少的地方。

36:50 It’s a leap.

这是一个飞跃。

It’s a leap, and it points to a phenomenon that would’ve enraged Marx and would’ve been deeply alienating to others in the tradition who followed him, but that so many scholars have commented on, and that’s that there is a religious element.

这是一个飞跃，它指出了一种现象，这种现象会激怒马克思，并会深深疏远追随他的传统中的其他人，但很多学者都对此进行了评论，那就是其中存在宗教因素。

37:01 Not a vowed one, but a kind of hidden religious or secular religious element to Marx’s vision, to the tradition that follows Marx, and just think of the correspondences, right?

不是一种誓言，而是一种隐藏的宗教或世俗宗教元素，与马克思的视野、与马克思所遵循的传统相一致，只要想想对应关系，对吗？

Marx himself positioning himself as a savior figure, whether that’s a Prometheus or a Moses who will lead people to the promised land.

马克思本人将自己定位为救世主，无论是普罗米修斯还是摩西，都会带领人们走向应许之地。

The apocalypse or the end times is this final revolution that will usher in a blessed final state, a utopia, which is equivalent to a secular version of heaven.

天启或末日是这场最终的革命，它将迎来一个受祝福的最终状态，一个乌托邦，相当于世俗版的天堂。

There’s the working class playing the role of humanity in its struggle to be redeemed, and scholar after scholar has pointed this out.

工人阶级在其救赎的斗争中扮演着人性的角色，一个又一个的学者都指出了这一点。

38:12 Reinhold Niebuhr back in the 1930s had an article in The Atlantic magazine that talked about the Soviet Union’s communism as a religion.

早在 20 世纪 30 年代，莱因霍尔德·尼布尔 (Reinhold Niebuhr) 在《大西洋月刊》上发表了一篇文章，谈论苏联的共产主义作为一种宗教。

Eric Voegelin, a German-American scholar who fled the Nazis and relocated to Louisiana State University and wrote tomes about the new phenomenon of political religions in the modern period.

埃里克·沃格林 (Eric Voegelin) 是一位德裔美国学者，逃离纳粹统治，搬到路易斯安那州立大学，撰写了有关现代政治宗教新现象的著作。

And he saw fascism and Nazism and Soviet communism as bearing the stamp of political religions, meaning ideologies that promised what an earlier age would’ve understood in religious terms.

他认为法西斯主义、纳粹主义和苏联共产主义都带有政治宗教的印记，这意味着意识形态承诺了早年用宗教术语所理解的东西。

Voegelin called this the eschaton and said that these end times, the eschaton, was being promised in the here and now, being made imminent, and he warned against that saying the results are likely to be disastrous.

沃格林称其为末日，并表示这些末日，即末世，正在此时此地被许诺，即将到来，他警告不要这样说，结果可能是灾难性的。

So that’s actually a disagreement with this idea that people sometimes say that the Soviet Union is an example of an atheistic society.

因此，这实际上是与人们有时说苏联是无神论社会的一个例子的观点不同的。

39:11 So when you have atheism as the primary thing that underpins the society, this is what you get.

因此，当你将无神论作为支撑社会的主要因素时，这就是你所得到的。

So what you’re saying is a kind of rejection of that, saying that there’s a strong religious component to a communism.

所以你所说的是一种对此的拒绝，说共产主义有很强的宗教成分。

A hidden component, one that’s not officially recognized.

一个隐藏的组件，未经官方认可的组件。

39:39 I had a chance to witness this actually.

我有机会亲眼目睹这一点。

When I was a child, my family, I grew up in Chicago to a Lithuanian-American family, and my father, who was a mathematician, got a very rare invitation to travel to Soviet Lithuania, to the University of Vilnius to meet with colleagues.

当我还是个孩子的时候，我的家人在芝加哥的一个立陶宛裔美国人家庭长大，我的父亲是一位数学家，他收到了一份非常罕见的邀请前往苏联立陶宛，去维尔纽斯大学与同事见面。

And at this point, journeys of more than a few days or a week were very rare to the Soviet Union for Americans, and the result was that I had unforgettable experiences visiting the Soviet Union in Brezhnev’s Day.

此时，对于美国人来说，去苏联几天或一周以上的旅程是非常罕见的，结果就是我在勃列日涅夫日的苏联访问经历了难忘的经历。

40:20 And among the things I saw, there was a museum of atheism that had been established in a church that had been ripped apart from inside and was meant to embody the official stance of atheism.

在我看到的东西中，有一个无神论博物馆，建在一座被从内部拆开的教堂里，旨在体现无神论的官方立场。

And I remember being baffled by the museum on the inside because you would expect exhibits, you would expect something dramatic, something that will be compelling, and instead, there was some folk art from the countryside showing bygone beliefs, there were some lithographs or engravings of the Spanish Inquisition and its horrors, and that was pretty much it.

我记得我对博物馆的内部感到困惑，因为你会期待展览，你会期待一些戏剧性的东西，一些引人注目的东西，相反，有一些来自乡村的民间艺术展示了过去的信仰，有一些西班牙宗教裁判所及其恐怖的石版画或版画，仅此而已。

But as a child, I remember being reproved in that museum for not wearing my windbreaker, but instead carrying it on my arm, which was a very disrespectful thing to do in an official museum of atheism.

但小时候，我记得在那个博物馆里因为没有穿风衣而是把它挂在手臂上而受到责备，这在一个官方的无神论博物馆里是非常不尊重的事情。

41:18 When I was able to visit the Soviet Union later for a language course in the summer of 1989, one of the obligatory tours that we took was to file reverently past the body of Lenin outside the Kremlin in the mausoleum at Red Square, and communist mummies, like those of Lenin, earlier, Stalin had been there as well, communist mummies like Mao or Ho Chi Minh really, I think, speak to a blending of earlier religious sensibility, reverence for relics of great figures, almost saintly figures, so that even what got proclaimed as atheism turned out to be a very demanding faith as well, and I think that’s a contradiction that other scholars have pointed out as well.

当我后来能够在 1989 年夏天去苏联参加语言课程时，我们必须进行的旅行之一就是虔诚地经过克里姆林宫外红场陵墓中的列宁遗体，以及共产主义木乃伊，例如列宁的木乃伊，早些时候，斯大林也曾在那里，我认为，像毛泽东或胡志明这样的共产主义木乃伊确实融合了早期的宗教情感，对伟大人物、几乎是圣人的遗物的崇敬，因此即使被宣称为无神论的东西也被证明是一种非常苛刻的信仰，我认为这也是其他学者指出的一个矛盾。

Yeah, that’s a very complicated discussion.

是的，这是一个非常复杂的讨论。

42:08 When you remove religion as a big component of a society, whether something like a framing of political ideologies in a religious way is the natural consequence of that.

当你消除宗教作为社会重要组成部分时，以宗教方式构建政治意识形态之类的东西是否是其自然结果。

We hear nature abhorring a vacuum, and I think that there are places in human character that long for transcendental explanations, that it’s not all meaningless.

我们听到大自然憎恶真空，我认为人类性格中有些地方渴望超验的解释，这并非毫无意义。

42:23 In fact, there’s a larger purpose, and I think it’s not a coincidence that such a significant part of resistance to communist regimes has in part come from, on the one hand, religious believers, and on the other hand, from disillusioned true believers in communism who find themselves undergoing an internal experience of revulsion, finding that their ideals have not been followed through on.

事实上，还有一个更大的目的，我认为，对共产主义政权的如此重要的抵抗一方面来自宗教信徒，另一方面来自幻灭的共产主义真正信徒，他们发现自己正在经历一种内心的厌恶体验，发现自己的理想没有得到贯彻，这并非巧合。

So this topic is one of several topics that you eloquently describe as contradictions within the ideas of Marx.

因此，这个主题是您雄辩地描述为马克思思想中的矛盾的几个主题之一。

43:05 So religious, there is a kind of religious adherence versus also the rejection of religious dogma that he stood for.

如此虔诚，有一种宗教信仰，也有对他所代表的宗教教条的拒绝。

We’ve talked about some of the others, the tension between nationalism that emerged when it was implemented versus what communism is supposed to be, which is global, so globalism.

我们已经讨论了其他一些问题，即实施民族主义时出现的民族主义与共产主义应有的样子之间的紧张关系，共产主义是全球性的，因此是全球主义。

Then there’s the thing that we started talking with, is the individualism.

然后我们开始谈论的是个人主义。

So history is supposed to be defined by the large collection of humans, but there does seem to be the singular figures, including Marx himself, that are really important.

因此，历史应该是由大量的人类来定义的，但似乎确实有一些独特的人物，包括马克思本人，是非常重要的。

Geography of global versus restricted to certain countries, and tradition.

全球地理与仅限于某些国家和传统的地理。

You’re supposed to break with the past under communism, but then Marxism became one of the strongest traditions in history.

你应该与共产主义下的过去决裂，但后来马克思主义成为历史上最强大的传统之一。

That’s right, that’s right.

没错，没错。

44:07 I think that that last one is especially significant because it’s deeply paradoxical.

我认为最后一个特别重要，因为它非常矛盾。

Trying to outline these contradictions by the way is like subjecting Marx to the sort of analysis that Marx subjected other people to, which is to point out internal contradictions, things that are likely to become pressure points or cracks that might open up in what’s supposed to be a completely set and durable and effective framework.

试图顺便概述这些矛盾就像让马克思接受马克思对其他人进行的那种分析，即指出内部矛盾，那些可能成为压力点或裂缝的东西，这些东西可能会在一个被认为是一个完整的、持久的和有效的框架中出现。

The one about tradition, Marx points out that the need for revolution is in order to break with the traditions that have hemmed people in – these earlier ways of thinking, earlier social structures – and to constantly renovate.

关于传统，马克思指出，革命的需要是为了打破束缚人们的传统——这些早期的思维方式、早期的社会结构——并不断更新。

44:53 And what happens instead is a tradition of radical rupture emerges, and that’s really tough, because imagine in the last stages of the Soviet Union where keen observers can tell that there are problems that are building in society.

相反，出现了一种彻底决裂的传统，这真的很艰难，因为想象一下，在苏联的最后阶段，敏锐的观察者可以看出社会中正在出现问题。

There are discontents and demands that are going to clash, especially when someone like Gorbachev is proposing reforms and things are suddenly thrown open for discussion.

不满和要求将会发生冲突，特别是当像戈尔巴乔夫这样的人提出改革并且事情突然公开讨论时。

The very notion that you have the celebration of revolutionaries and the Bolshevik legacy at a time when the state wants to enforce stability and an order that’s been received from the prior generation, think of Brezhnev’s time, for instance.

例如，当国家想要加强稳定和从上一代人那里收到的命令时，你会庆祝革命者和布尔什维克的遗产，例如，想想勃列日涅夫时代。

All of that is an especially volatile mix and unlikely to work out very durably in the long run.

所有这些都是一个特别不稳定的组合，从长远来看不太可能持久。

I would love to talk about the works of Marx, the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital.

我很想谈谈马克思的著作、《共产党宣言》和《资本论》。

45:52 What can we say that’s interesting about the manifestation of his ideas on paper?

他的想法在纸上的体现有何有趣之处？

Well, the first thing to note obviously is that those two works are very different.

嗯，首先要注意的显然是这两部作品非常不同。

46:05 Das Kapital is an enormous multi-volume work that Marx worked at and only got the first volume out because Engels begged him to stop revising.

《资本论》是马克思创作的一部巨著，由于恩格斯恳求他停止修改，所以才出版了第一卷。

“Please, just finally get it into press,” and then the rest, Engels had to actually reconstruct out of notes after Marx passed away.

“拜托，终于把它付诸印刷了，”然后剩下的部分，恩格斯不得不在马克思去世后根据笔记进行实际重建。

It’s a huge work.

这是一项艰巨的工作。

By contrast, the Communist Manifesto is a brief pamphlet that ended up affecting the lives of many millions worldwide, in spite of its comparative brevity.

相比之下，《共产党宣言》是一本简短的小册子，尽管相对简短，但最终影响了全世界数百万人的生活。

46:43 The Communist Manifesto moreover is also something of the nature of having a delayed fuse, you could say, because when it first appears amid the revolutions of 1848 that sweep across Europe, the work is contrary to what people often believe.

此外，《共产党宣言》也可以说是具有延迟导火索的性质，因为当它在1848年席卷欧洲的革命中首次出现时，它与人们通常认为的相反。

That pamphlet did not cause the revolutions of 1848, many of which had national or liberal demands.

那本小册子并没有引发 1848 年的革命，其中许多革命都有民族或自由主义的要求。

The voice of Marx and Engels was barely to be heard over the din of other far more prominent actors.

在其他更杰出的演员的喧闹声中，马克思和恩格斯的声音几乎听不见。

It is, however, in the aftermath that this work takes on tremendous significance and becomes popularly read and popularly distributed.

然而，正是在这之后，这部作品才具有了巨大的意义，并被广泛阅读和广泛传播。

47:28 It’s especially the episode, the bloody episode of the Paris Commune in 1871 which comes to be identified with Marx.

尤其是 1871 年巴黎公社的血腥事件，它被人们与马克思联系在一起。

Even though it was not purely inspired by Marx alone, nor were all of the Communards devoted Marxists, it’s the identification of this famous or infamous episode in urban upheaval that really leads to worldwide notoriety for Marx and attention to those works.

尽管它并非纯粹受到马克思的启发，也不是所有的公社成员都是忠诚的马克思主义者，但正是对城市动乱中这一著名或臭名昭著的事件的识别，才真正导致马克思在全世界声名狼藉，并引起人们对这些作品的关注。

47:59 And they’re very different in form.

而且它们的形式有很大不同。

Das Kapital is intended to be the Origin of Species of its realm of economic thought, and represents years and years of work of Marx laboring in the British Museum library, working through statistics, working on little bits and pieces of a larger answer to big historical questions that he believes that he’s arrived at.

《资本论》旨在成为其经济思想领域的《物种起源》，代表了马克思多年来在大英博物馆图书馆工作的成果，通过统计数据，为他认为自己已经找到的重大历史问题找到一个更大的答案。

Its tone is different from that of the Communist Manifesto, which is a call to arms.

它的语气与《共产党宣言》的口气不同，后者是战斗的号召。

It announces with great confidence what the scheme of history will be, but rather than urging that the answer might be passivity and just waiting for history to play out in its preordained way, it’s also a clarion call to make the revolution happen and is intended to be a pragmatic, practical statement of how this is to play out, and starts in part with those ringing words about a ghost or a specter haunting Europe, the specter of communism, which wasn’t true at the time, but decades later, most definitely is the case.

它充满信心地宣布了历史的计划是什么，但不是敦促答案可能是被动的，只是等待历史按照预定的方式上演，它也是让革命发生的号角，旨在以务实、实用的方式说明革命将如何展开，并以那些响亮的话语开始，关于困扰欧洲的鬼魂或幽灵，共产主义的幽灵，这在当时不是真的，但几十年了后来，肯定是这样了。

Is there something we could say about the difference between Marxian economics and Marx’s political ideology, so the political side of things and the economics side of things?

关于马克思主义经济学和马克思政治意识形态之间的区别，即政治方面和经济方面的区别，我们能说些什么吗？

So I think that Marx would probably have responded that in fact, those things are indivisible.

所以我认为马克思可能会回答说，事实上，这些东西是不可分割的。

49:24 The analysis as purely theoretical certainly can be performed on any economic reality that you care to mention, but the imperatives that grow out of that economic analysis are political.

纯粹理论上的分析当然可以对您想提及的任何经济现实进行，但从经济分析中得出的必要性是政治性的。

Marx and Engels emphasize the unity of theory and practice.

马克思、恩格斯强调理论与实践的统一。

So it’s not enough to dispassionately analyze.

因此，仅仅冷静地分析是不够的。

It’s a call to action as well, because if you’ve delivered the answer to how history evolves and changes, it obligates you, right?

这也是一个行动号召，因为如果你已经给出了历史如何演变和变化的答案，那么你就有义务，对吧？

It demands certain action.

它需要采取一定的行动。

50:14 You sometimes hear from undergraduates that they’ve heard from their high school history teachers that Marxism was just a theoretical construct that was the idle production of a philosopher who was not connected to the world and was never meant to be tried in practice.

有时你会听到本科生说，他们从高中历史老师那里听说，马克思主义只是一种理论建构，是一位与世界没有联系的哲学家的闲置产物，从来不打算在实践中进行尝试。

Marx would have been furious to hear this and it’s almost heroically wrong as a historical statement, because Marx insisted that all previous philosophers have theorized about reality.

马克思听到这个消息一定会勃然大怒，作为历史陈述，这几乎是大错特错，因为马克思坚持认为所有以前的哲学家都对现实进行了理论化。

What now is really necessary is to change it.

现在真正需要的是改变它。

So you could say that in the abstract, a Marxist economist can certainly use Marx’s theoretical framework to compare to a given economic reality, but Marx would have seen that as incomplete and as deeply unsatisfactory.

因此，你可以说，抽象地讲，马克思主义经济学家当然可以使用马克思的理论框架来与给定的经济现实进行比较，但马克思会认为这是不完整的，而且非常令人不满意。

51:10 There’s a kind of a footnote to all of this, which is that even though Marxist dialectical materialism grounds itself in these economic realities and the political prescription is supposed to flow from the economic realities and be inevitably growing out of them, in the real history of communist regimes, you’ve actually seen periods where the economics becomes detached from the politics.

所有这一切都有一个脚注，那就是，尽管马克思主义辩证唯物主义立足于这些经济现实，政治处方应该源于经济现实，并不可避免地从中产生，但在共产主义政权的真实历史中，你实际上已经看到了经济与政治分离的时期。

And I’m thinking in particular of the new economic period early in the history of the Soviet Union when Lenin realizes that the economy is so far gone that you need to reintroduce or allow, in a limited way, some elements of private enterprise, just to start getting Russia back on course in order to have the accumulation of surplus that will be necessary to build the project at all.

我特别想到了苏联历史早期的新经济时期，当时列宁意识到经济已经远去，你需要重新引入或以有限的方式允许私营企业的某些要素，只是为了开始让俄罗斯回到正轨，以便积累建设该项目所必需的盈余。

And there are many Bolsheviks who see the new economic policy as a terrible compromise and a betrayal of their ideas, but it’s seen as necessary for a short while, and then Stalin will wreck it entirely.

许多布尔什维克认为新的经济政策是一种可怕的妥协，是对他们思想的背叛，但它在短时间内被认为是必要的，然后斯大林就会彻底破坏它。

52:22 Or consider for that matter China today, where you have a dominant political class, the Communist Party of China, which is allowing economic development and private enterprise, as long as it retains political control.

或者考虑一下今天的中国，那里有一个占主导地位的政治阶级——中国共产党，只要它保留政治控制权，它就允许经济发展和私营企业。

So some of these elements already represent divergences from what Marx would’ve expected, and this points to a really key problem or question for all of the history of communism.

因此，其中一些要素已经与马克思的预期有所不同，这指向了整个共产主义历史的一个真正关键的问题。

It has to do with it being a tradition in spite of itself, and that could be expressed in the following way.

这与它本身就是一种传统有关，这可以用以下方式表达。

An original set of ideas is going to evolve, it’s going to change, because circumstances change.

一套原始的想法将会演变，它将会改变，因为环境发生了变化。

What elaborations of any doctrine, whether it’s communism or a religious doctrine or any political ideology, what elaborations are natural stages in the evolution of any living set of ideas, or when do you reach the point where some shift or some adaptation is so radically different that it actually breaks with the tradition, and that’s an insoluble problem.

对任何教义的阐述是什么，无论是共产主义、宗教教义还是任何政治意识形态，哪些阐述是任何现存观念演化的自然阶段，或者什么时候你会达到某种转变或某种适应如此根本不同以至于实际上打破了传统的地步，这是一个无法解决的问题。

You probably have to take it on a case-by-case basis.

您可能必须根据具体情况进行处理。

53:40 It speaks to issues like the question that gets raised today.

它谈到了像今天提出的问题这样的问题。

Is China in a meaningful sense a communist country anymore?

从某种意义上说，中国已经是一个共产主义国家了吗？

And there’s a diversity of opinion on this score.

对于这一点，人们有不同的看法。

Or if you’re looking at the history of communism and you look at North Korea, which now is on its third installment of a dynastic leader from the same family who rules like a God king over a regime that calls itself communist, is that still a form of communism?

或者，如果你看一下共产主义的历史，看看朝鲜，它现在正处于同一家族的王朝领导人的第三代，他像神王一样统治着一个自称共产主义的政权，这仍然是共产主义的一种形式吗？

Is it an evolution of?

是一种进化吗？

Is it a complete reversal of?

是不是彻底反转了？

54:20 I tend to want to take an anthropological perspective in the history of communism and to take very seriously those people who avow that they are communists and this is the project that they have underway.

我倾向于从人类学的角度来看待共产主义的历史，并非常认真地对待那些自称是共产主义者的人，这就是他们正在进行的项目。

And then after hearing that avowal, I think as a historian, you have to say, well, let’s look at the details.

听到这个声明后，我认为作为一名历史学家，你必须说，好吧，让我们看看细节。

Let’s see what changes have been made, what continuities might still exist, whether there’s a larger pattern to be discerned here.

让我们看看发生了哪些变化，哪些连续性可能仍然存在，是否有更大的模式可以辨别。

So it’s a very, very complicated history that we’re talking about.

所以我们正在谈论的是一段非常非常复杂的历史。

Let’s step back to the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century, and let’s steel man the case for communism.

让我们回到19世纪末20世纪初，让我们为共产主义辩护。

54:51 Let’s put ourselves in the shoes of the people there, not in this way where we could look back at what happened in the 20th century.

让我们设身处地为那里的人们着想，而不是这样回顾20世纪发生的事情。

Why was this such a compelling notion for millions of people?

为什么这对数百万人来说是一个如此引人注目的想法？

Can we make the case for it?

我们能证明这一点吗？

Well, clearly it was a compelling case for millions of people, and part of this story overall has to do with the faith, conviction, stories of people sacrificing themselves as well as their countrymen in a cause that they believed was not just legitimate, but demanded their total obedience.

嗯，显然这对数百万人来说是一个令人信服的案例，而这个故事的一部分总体上与人们的信仰、信念和故事有关，他们为了一项他们认为不仅合法、而且要求他们完全服从的事业而牺牲了自己和同胞。

55:16 I think that throughout the early part of the 20th century, the late 19th century, early part of the 20th century, so much of the compelling case for communism came from the confidence that people in the West more generally placed in science, the notion that science is answering problems.

我认为，在整个20世纪初期、19世纪末、20世纪初，共产主义的许多令人信服的理由都来自于西方人普遍对科学的信心，即科学正在解决问题的观念。

Science is giving us solutions to how the world around us works, how the world around us can be improved.

科学为我们提供了关于我们周围的世界如何运作以及如何改善我们周围的世界的解决方案。

Some varieties of that, and watch the quotation marks, “science” were crazy, like phrenology, so-called scientific racism that tried to divide humanity up into discreet blocks and to manipulate them in ways that were allegedly scientific or rational.

其中的一些变体，注意引号，“科学”是疯狂的，比如颅相学，所谓的科学种族主义，试图将人类分成离散的块，并以所谓的科学或理性的方式操纵它们。

56:25 So there were horrors that followed from those invocations of science, but its prestige was enormous, and that in part had to do with the lessening grip of religious ideas on intellectual elites, more generally, processes of secularization, not total secularization but processes of secularization in Western industrial societies, and the sense that here’s the doctrine that will allow escape from wars brought on by capitalist competition, poverty and economic cycles and depressions brought on by capitalist competition, the inequalities of societies that remain hierarchical and class-based.

因此，这些对科学的援引随之而来的是恐怖，但它的声望是巨大的，部分与宗教观念对知识精英的控制力减弱有关，更一般地说，是世俗化的过程，不是完全世俗化，而是西方工业社会的世俗化过程，以及这样一种感觉，即这种学说将允许人们摆脱资本主义竞争带来的战争、贫困和经济周期以及资本主义竞争带来的萧条、社会的不平等仍然存在等级制度和社会不平等。基于阶级的。

And this claim to being cutting edge science, I think allows people like Lenin to derive immense confidence in the prescription that they have for the future.

我认为，这种声称是尖端科学的说法让像列宁这样的人对他们对未来的处方充满了信心。

And that paradoxically, the confidence that you have in broad strokes the right set of answers for how to get to the future also allows you to take huge liberties with the tactics and the strategies that you follow, as long as your ultimate goal remains the one sketched by this master plan.

矛盾的是，只要你的最终目标仍然是这个总体规划所勾勒的目标，你对如何走向未来的总体正确答案的信心也让你可以对你所遵循的战术和战略有很大的自由度。

57:56 So ultimately, some of the predictions of someone like Lenin, that once society has reached that stage of the dictatorship of the proletariat, the notion that governments will essentially be able to run themselves, and that the model he had in mind, oddly enough, was Swiss post offices.

因此，最终，像列宁这样的人的一些预测是，一旦社会达到无产阶级专政的阶段，政府基本上就能够自我管理，奇怪的是，他想到的模式是瑞士邮局。

Being in Swiss exile must have impressed him so much with the orderliness and the sheer discipline and rationality of a Swiss post office, and he thought, “Why can’t you organize governments like this where you don’t need political leaders, you don’t need grand visions?

流亡瑞士的经历一定给他留下了深刻的印象，瑞士邮局的秩序、纯粹的纪律和理性，他想，“为什么你不能组织这样的政府，不需要政治领导人，不需要宏伟的愿景？

You have procedures, you have bureaucracy, which does its job in a way that’s not alienating, but simply produces the greatest good.”

你有程序，有官僚机构，它们以一种不会疏远的方式完成工作，而只是产生最大的好处。”

58:49 When you think of the experiences with bureaucracy in the 20th century, one’s hair stands on end to have the comparative naiveté on display with a prediction like that, but it derives from that confidence that it’s all going to be okay because we understand.

当你想到 20 世纪官僚主义的经历时，你会感到毛骨悚然，因为这样的预测表现出相对天真，但它源于这样的信心：一切都会好起来的，因为我们理解。

We have the key, we have the plan to how to arrive at this final configuration of humanity.

我们有钥匙，我们有计划来实现人类的最终配置。

Yeah, the certainty of science, in quotes, and the goal of utopia gets you in trouble.

是的，科学的确定性和乌托邦的目标会给你带来麻烦。

59:14 But also, just on the human level, from a working class person perspective, from the industrial revolution, you see the growing inequality, wealth inequality, and there is a kind of, you see people getting wealthy, and combined with the fact that life is difficult, life in general, life is suffering for many, for most, for all if you listen to some philosophers.

而且，就人类层面而言，从工人阶级的角度来看，从工业革命来看，你会看到不平等现象日益加剧，财富不平等，而且有一种情况，你会看到人们变得富有，再加上生活艰难的事实，一般来说，如果你听一些哲学家的话，生活对许多人来说，对大多数人来说，对所有人来说，生活都是痛苦的。

And there is a powerful idea in that the man is exploiting me, and that’s a populist message that a lot of people resonate with because to a degree, it’s true in every system.

有一个强有力的想法，那就是这个人正在剥削我，这是一个民粹主义信息，很多人都会产生共鸣，因为在某种程度上，这在每个系统中都是如此。

And so before you know how these economic and political ideas manifest themselves, it is really powerful to say, “Here, beyond the horizon, there’s a world where the rich man will not exploit my hard work anymore,” and I think that’s a really powerful idea.

因此，在你知道这些经济和政治思想如何体现出来之前，说“在这里，在地平线之外，有一个富人不会再利用我的辛勤工作的世界”是非常有力的，我认为这是一个非常有力的想法。

It is.

这是。

1:00:22 At the same time though, it kind of points to a further problem and that’s the identity of the revolutionaries.

但与此同时，这也指出了另一个问题，那就是革命者的身份。

It turned out that many of these revolutionary movements and then the founding elites of communist countries in the aftermath of the Soviet seizure of power turn out to be something quite different from people who have spent their lives in factories experiencing the industrial revolution firsthand.

事实证明，许多这些革命运动以及苏联夺取政权后共产主义国家的建国精英与那些在工厂里亲身经历工业革命的人截然不同。

There’s a special role here for intellectuals, and when Marx and Engels write into the Communist Manifesto the notion that certain exceptional individuals can rise above their class origins in a way other people can’t and transcend their earlier role, their materially determined role in order to gain a perspective on the historical process as a whole and ally themselves with the working class and its struggle for communism, this sort of special role that they carved out for themselves is enormously appealing for intellectuals, because any celebration of intellectuals as world movers is going to appeal to intellectuals.

知识分子在这里有一个特殊的角色，当马克思和恩格斯在《共产党宣言》中写下这样的观念时，即某些特殊的个人可以以其他人无法做到的方式超越他们的阶级出身，超越他们以前的角色，他们物质决定的角色，以便获得对整个历史进程的看法，并与工人阶级及其为共产主义而斗争结盟，他们为自己创造的这种特殊角色对知识分子来说具有巨大的吸引力，因为任何对知识分子的庆祝世界推动者将吸引知识分子。

1:01:33 That gap, that frequent reality of not being in touch with the very classes that the communists are aiming to represent is a very frequent theme in this story.

这种差距，即与共产党人所要代表的阶级没有接触的频繁现实，是这个故事中非常常见的主题。

It also speaks to a crucial part of this story, which is the breaking apart or the Civil War, the war of brother against…

它还谈到了这个故事的一个关键部分，即分裂或内战，兄弟对抗……的战争。

1:02:00 Apart or the Civil War, the War of brother against brother, the fraternal struggle that splits socialism and splits followers of Marx.

除了内战之外，还是兄弟间的战争，是分裂社会主义和分裂马克思追随者的兄弟般的斗争。

And that’s in the aftermath of the First World War in particular, or during this traumatic experience.

尤其是在第一次世界大战之后，或者在这段痛苦的经历期间。

The way in which Lenin encourages the foundation of radical parties that will break with social democracy of the sort that had been elaborated, especially in places like Germany, scorning their moderation.

列宁鼓励建立激进政党的方式，这些政党将与已经制定的那种社会民主主义决裂，特别是在德国这样的地方，蔑视它们的温和派。

And instead announcing a new dispensation, which was the Leninist conception of a disciplined, hardcore professional revolutionaries who will act in ways that a mere trade union movement couldn’t.

相反，他们宣布了一种新的分配方式，这是列宁主义的构想，即纪律严明、核心的职业革命者将以单纯工会运动无法做到的方式行事。

1:02:47 And what this speaks to is a fundamental tension in radical movements.

这说明了激进运动中存在根本性的紧张关系。

Because left to their own devices, Lenin announces, workers tend to focus on their reality, their families, their workplace.

列宁宣称，由于任其自由发挥，工人们往往会关注自己的现实、家庭和工作场所。

Want better working conditions, unionize, and then aim to negotiate with employers or to agitate for reforms on the part of the state to improve their living conditions.

想要更好的工作条件，成立工会，然后与雇主谈判或推动国家进行改革，以改善他们的生活条件。

And then they’re happy for the advances that they have won.

然后他们为自己所赢得的进步感到高兴。

And for Lenin, that’s not enough, because that’s a half measure.

对于列宁来说，这还不够，因为这只是一个折衷的措施。

That’s the sort of thing that leads you into an accommodation with the system rather than the overthrow of the system.

这种事情会让你与体制妥协，而不是推翻体制。

So there’s a constant tension in this regard that plays itself out over the long haul.

因此，从长远来看，这方面存在着持续的紧张关系。

Let’s go to Lenin and the Russian Revolution.

让我们看看列宁和俄国革命。

1:03:38 How did communism come to power in the Soviet Union?

共产主义是如何在苏联上台的？

It came to power as a result of stepping into a power vacuum.

它是由于步入权力真空而上台的。

1:03:48 And the power vacuum was created by the First World War, and the effect that it had as a total war.

权力真空是由第一次世界大战及其作为一场全面战争所产生的影响造成的。

Unprecedented pressure placed on a regime that, in many ways, was a traditional, almost feudal monarchy, only experiencing the beginnings of the modernization that the rest of Europe had undergone.

这个政权在很多方面都是一个传统的、近乎封建的君主政体，刚刚经历了欧洲其他国家所经历的现代化的开端，这给它带来了前所未有的压力。

For this reason, communism comes to power in a place that Marx probably wouldn’t have expected, in the wreckage of the Russian Empire.

因此，共产主义在马克思可能没有预料到的地方——俄罗斯帝国的废墟上掌权。

Lenin is absolutely vital to this equation because he’s the one who presses the process forward.

列宁对于这个方程式绝对至关重要，因为他是推动这一进程前进的人。

1:04:32 Ironically, given the claim of communist leaders to having the key to history, just a few months previous in exile in Switzerland Lenin had been despairing and had been convinced that he may not even live to see the advent of that day.

具有讽刺意味的是，鉴于共产党领导人声称拥有历史的钥匙，就在流亡瑞士的几个月前，列宁还感到绝望，并确信他甚至可能无法活着看到那一天的到来。

But then when revolution does break out in the Russian Empire in February of 1917, Lenin is absolutely frantic to get back.

但当 1917 年 2 月俄罗斯帝国爆发革命时，列宁绝对急于返回。

And when he does get back as a result of a deal that is negotiated with the German high command, a step that they’ll later live very much to regret.

当他因与德国最高统帅部谈判达成的协议而回归时，他们将为此后悔不已。

He is able to get back and to go into action and to press for nothing less than the seizure of power that brings his Bolshevik faction, the radical wing of the socialist movement, to power and then to build the Soviet Union.

他能够回来并采取行动，并极力争取夺取政权，使他的布尔什维克派（社会主义运动的激进派别）掌权，然后建立苏联。

Even he was surprised how effective and how fast the revolution happened?

就连他也对这场革命发生得如此有效和如此迅速感到惊讶？

He was, although I think that he would’ve agreed that what was necessary was a cataclysm on the scale of the First World War to make this happen.

他是的，尽管我认为他会同意，要实现这一目标，需要一场像第一次世界大战那样规模的灾难。

1:05:39 The First World War shatters so many of the certainties of the 19th century that we talked about as a dynamic period with argument between ideologies.

第一次世界大战粉碎了 19 世纪的许多确定性，以至于我们将其视为一个充满活力、意识形态之间存在争论的时期。

It scrambles all sorts of earlier debates.

它扰乱了早期的各种辩论。

It renegotiates the status of the individual versus an all-powerful state and the claims of the state.

它重新谈判个人与全能国家的地位以及国家的主张。

Because to win, or even just to survive in World War I, you need to centralize, centralize, centralize, and to put everything onto an authoritarian wartime footing in country after country.

因为为了在第一次世界大战中获胜，甚至只是为了生存，你需要集中、集中、集中，并在一个又一个国家将一切置于专制战时基础上。

So Lenin earlier had already articulated the possibility that this might happen by talking about how the entire globe already was connected.

因此，列宁早些时候已经通过谈论整个地球如何相互联系来阐明这种情况可能发生的可能性。

And there’s a chain of capitalist development that is connecting different countries so that the weakest link in the chain, if it breaks, if it pops open, it might actually inaugurate much bigger processes and start a chain reaction.

资本主义发展有一条连接不同国家的链条，链条中最薄弱的一环如果断裂、突然打开，实际上可能会启动更大的进程并引发连锁反应。

That’s what he intended to do and has the chance to do in the course of 1917.

这就是他打算做的事情，并且在 1917 年有机会做。

Incidentally, just to get a sense of the sheer chaos and the human, on an individual human level, what the absence of established authority meant.

顺便说一句，只是为了了解纯粹的混乱和人类，在人类个体的层面上，缺乏既定权威意味着什么。

There’s few works of literature that is powerful as Boris Pasternak’s Dr. Zhivago for giving the whole sweep of contending forces in a power vacuum.

很少有文学作品能像鲍里斯·帕斯捷尔纳克（Boris Pasternak）的《日瓦戈博士》（Dr. Zivago）那样，在权力真空中全面展现竞争力量。

It’s an amazing testimony to that time and place.

这是对那个时间和地点的惊人见证。

You said that Bolsheviks saw violence and terror as necessary.

你说布尔什维克认为暴力和恐怖是必要的。

1:07:41 Can you just speak to this aspect of their…

你能谈谈他们的这方面吗？

Because they took power, so this was a part of the way they saw the world.

因为他们掌握了权力，所以这就是他们看待世界的方式的一部分。

Right.

正确的。

1:07:54 And it had antecedents.

而且它是有前因后果的。

Even though Lenin and his colleagues are competing amongst each other for the title of most faithful disciple of Marx, and most true to the received theory in practice, there’s other influences, earlier influences that operate in the Russian context that were not operative, let’s say, in the German context.

尽管列宁和他的同事们正在相互竞争马克思最忠实的弟子的称号，并且在实践中最忠实于公认的理论，但还有其他影响，早期在俄罗斯背景下发挥作用的影响，但在德国背景下却不起作用。

Here you have to step back and think about the nature of Tsarism, which had maintained, still, into the 20th century, the notion of a divine right to rule.

在这里，你必须退一步思考沙皇制度的本质，直到20世纪，沙皇制度仍然维持着神圣的统治权的概念。

That God had ordained the Tsarist system and its hierarchies.

上帝命定了沙皇制度及其等级制度。

And that to question these was sinful and politically not advisable.

质疑这些是有罪的，在政治上也是不可取的。

The restrictive nature of Russian society at this point dominated by the Tsarist establishment, its harshness, its reactionary nature meant that people who in another context, in another country might’ve been reformers, could instead very easily be provoked into becoming revolutionaries.

俄罗斯社会此时由沙皇政权主导，其严酷性和反动性意味着，在另一个背景、另一个国家可能是改革者的人们，很容易被激怒成为革命者。

And Lenin is a perfect example of this.

列宁就是一个完美的例子。

Because his older brother was executed as a result of being in a radical revolutionary movement, who was arrested and executed for association with terrorism.

因为他的哥哥因参加激进革命运动而被处决，并因与恐怖主义有联系而被捕并被处决。

1:09:26 Earlier generations of Russian radicals had founded populist groups that would aim to engage in terrorism and resistance against the Tsarist regime.

前几代俄罗斯激进分子成立了民粹主义团体，旨在从事恐怖主义和反抗沙皇政权。

And this included people who call themselves nihilists.

其中包括那些自称为虚无主义者的人。

And these nihilists were materialists who saw themselves ushering in a new age by absolute rejection of earlier religious traditions and aiming for material answers to the challenges of the day.

这些虚无主义者是唯物主义者，他们认为自己通过绝对拒绝早期的宗教传统并致力于为当今的挑战提供物质答案来开创一个新时代。

Among them was Nikolai Chernyshevsky, who wrote what’s been called the worst book ever written.

其中包括尼古拉·车尔尼雪夫斯基，他写了被称为有史以来最糟糕的书。

It was, in fact, one of Lenin’s favorite books, in Russian it’s [foreign language 01:10:12].

事实上，这是列宁最喜欢的书之一，俄语是[外语 01:10:12]。

In English it gets translated What is to Be Done.

英文版的内容被翻译为“What is to Be Done”。

And it’s a utopian novel about revolutionaries and how revolutionaries should act with one another in open ways, new ways, non-traditional ways in order to help usher in the coming revolution.

这是一部关于革命者的乌托邦小说，以及革命者应该如何以开放的方式、新的方式、非传统的方式相互合作，以帮助迎来即将到来的革命。

Lenin loved the work and said it had the great merit of showing you how to be a revolutionary.

列宁很喜欢这部作品，并说它的巨大优点是向你展示如何成为一名革命者。

So there’s the Marxist influence, and then there’s Russian populist nihilist influence, which is also a very live current in Lenin’s thinking.

因此，有马克思主义的影响，还有俄罗斯民粹主义虚无主义的影响，这也是列宁思想中的一个非常活跃的潮流。

1:10:50 When you add these things together, you get an explosive mix.

当你把这些东西加在一起时，你就会得到爆炸性的组合。

Because Lenin, as a result, and part of this family trauma of his brother, becomes a absolutely irreconcilable enemy of the Tsarist regime and sets about turning himself into what you might call a guided missile for revolution.

因为列宁，以及他兄弟的家庭创伤的一部分，成为沙皇政权绝对不可调和的敌人，并开始将自己变成所谓的革命导弹。

He turns himself into a machine to produce revolutionary change.

他把自己变成了一台机器，以产生革命性的变化。

And I mean that with little hyperbole.

我的意思是一点也不夸张。

Lenin at one point shared with friends that he loved listening to music, but he tried not to listen to beautiful music like Beethoven because it made him feel gentle.

列宁曾与朋友分享过，他喜欢听音乐，但他尽量不听贝多芬这样优美的音乐，因为这让他感到温柔。

What a revolution demanded was realism, hardness, absolute steely resolve.

革命所要求的是现实主义、坚定性、绝对的钢铁般的决心。

So Lenin worries even fellow revolutionaries by the intensity of his single-minded focus to revolution.

因此，列宁对革命的一心一意的强烈程度甚至让其他革命者也感到担忧。

He spends his days thinking about the revolution.

他整天思考革命。

He probably dreamt about the revolution.

他可能梦想着革命。

So 24/7 it’s an existence where he’s paired off other human elements, quite deliberately, in order to turn himself into an effective instigator of revolution.

因此，24/7 是一种他故意将其他人类元素配对的存在，以便将自己变成有效的革命煽动者。

So, when the opportunity comes in 1917, he’s primed and ready for that role.

因此，当 1917 年机会到来时，他已经为这个角色做好了准备。

It’s interesting that Russian nihilism had an impact on Lenin.

有趣的是，俄罗斯虚无主义对列宁产生了影响。

1:12:15 Traditionally nihilist philosophy rejects all sorts of traditional morality.

传统的虚无主义哲学拒绝各种传统道德。

There’s a kind of cynical dark view.

有一种愤世嫉俗的阴暗观点。

Where’s the light?

光在哪里？

The light is science.

光就是科学。

1:12:28 The light is science and materialism.

光是科学和唯物主义。

Oh boy.

噢，孩子。

The nihilists, some of them did a very bad job of hiding their political beliefs because they were famous for wearing blue tinted spectacles, kind of the sunglasses of the late 19th century as a way of shielding their eyes from light.

虚无主义者中的一些人在隐藏自己的政治信仰方面表现得非常糟糕，因为他们以佩戴蓝色眼镜而闻名，这种眼镜类似于 19 世纪末的太阳镜，用来遮挡眼睛。

1:12:33 But also having a dispassionate and realistic view of reality outside.

但也要对外界的现实有冷静、现实的看法。

So nihilists, as the name would suggest, do reject all prior certainties, but they make an exception for science and see that as the possibility for founding an entirely new mode of existence.

因此，顾名思义，虚无主义者确实拒绝所有先前的确定性，但他们对科学例外，并将其视为建立全新存在模式的可能性。

For most people, I think, nihilism is introduced in the brilliant philosophical work, I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, by the name of The Big Lebowski.

我认为，对大多数人来说，虚无主义是在这部出色的哲学著作中引入的，我不知道你是否熟悉它，名字叫《大勒博夫斯基》。

1:13:09 Nihilists appear there, and I think they summarize the nihilist tradition quite well.

虚无主义者出现在那里，我认为他们很好地总结了虚无主义传统。

But it is indeed fascinating.

但它确实令人着迷。

And also it is fascinating that Lenin, and I’m sure this influenced Stalin as well, that hardness was a necessary human characteristic to take the revolution to its end.

令人着迷的是，列宁（我相信这也影响了斯大林）认为，坚强是使革命走向终点所必需的人类特征。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

1:13:40 So prior generations of nihilists or populists had resembled Lenin’s single-mindedness by arguing that one needed total devotion for this.

因此，前几代虚无主义者或民粹主义者都像列宁那样一心一意，认为人们需要全身心投入于此。

To play this role in society, it was not enough to be somewhat committed.

要在社会中扮演这一角色，仅仅有一定的奉献精神是不够的。

Total commitment was necessary.

全身心投入是必要的。

And the other theme that’s at work here obviously is, if we consider Lenin affected by Marxist ideas and the homegrown Russian revolutionary tradition that predates the arrival of Marxist socialism in Russia.

显然，这里起作用的另一个主题是，如果我们考虑到列宁受到马克思主义思想和早于马克思主义社会主义到来之前的俄罗斯本土革命传统的影响。

It’s the theme of needing to adapt to local conditions.

这是需要因地制宜的主题。

So Marxism or communism in Vietnam, or in Cuba, or in Cambodia, or in Russia will be very different in its local adaptations and local themes and resonance than it was in Germany where Marx would’ve expected all of this to unfold.

因此，越南、古巴、柬埔寨或俄罗斯的马克思主义或共产主义在当地的适应、当地的主题和共鸣方面将与马克思所期望的在德国发生的情况大不相同。

Let’s talk about Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin, this little interplay that eventually led to Stalin accumulating, grabbing, and taking a hold of power.

让我们谈谈列宁、托洛茨基和斯大林，这种小小的相互作用最终导致斯大林积累、攫取和掌握权力。

1:14:45 What was that process like?

那个过程是怎样的？

Lenin’s supreme confidence leads the party through some really difficult steps that involves things like signing the humiliating treaty with the Germans, the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

列宁的至高无上的信心带领该党走过了一些非常困难的步骤，其中包括与德国人签署屈辱的条约《布列斯特-立托夫斯克条约》等。

1:15:00 Where critics of the Bolsheviks said that no one who loved their country would’ve agreed to a so Draconian, so harsh a settlement that saw the peeling off of large territories that had belonged to the Russian Empire.

布尔什维克的批评者表示，没有一个热爱自己国家的人会同意如此严厉、如此严厉的解决方案，导致原本属于俄罗斯帝国的大片领土被剥离。

Lenin is willing to undertake this because the larger prize.

列宁愿意承担这个，因为奖金更大。

He even says that he’s not going to bother to read the treaty because shortly that treaty is going to be a dead letter.

他甚至说他不会费心去阅读该条约，因为很快该条约就会成为一纸空文。

His expectation is revolution’s going to break out everywhere, especially after we’ve raised the standard, first of all, in the wreckage of the Russian Empire.

他的期望是革命将在各地爆发，特别是在我们提高标准之后，首先是在俄罗斯帝国的废墟中。

We should probably say that that treaty, to some small degree, maybe you can elaborate now or later, lays the groundwork for World War II, because there is…

我们或许应该说，该条约在某种程度上，也许你现在或以后可以详细阐述，为第二次世界大战奠定了基础，因为……

1:15:48 Resentment is a thing that with time can lead to just extreme levels of destruction.

随着时间的推移，怨恨会导致极端程度的破坏。

Right.

正确的。

1:16:06 For German sensibilities, for German nationalists, that treaty meant that Germany had essentially won World War I.

对于德国人来说，对于德国民族主义者来说，该条约意味着德国基本上赢得了第一次世界大战。

And only a turn of events that many of them couldn’t even follow or conceive of, the arrival of American troops, the tipping of the balance in the West, led to that reversal.

只有一个他们中的许多人甚至无法跟踪或想象的事件的转变，即美国军队的到来，西方平衡的倾斜，才导致了这一逆转。

One of the many scholars and contemporaries pointed out that Germany, between the wars, was full of people who were convinced that Germany had actually not lost the war, however that victory of theirs was defined.

许多学者和同时代人中的一位指出，德国在两次世界大战之间，充满了相信德国实际上没有输掉战争的人，无论他们的胜利是如何定义的。

So most definitely that groundwork is laid.

所以毫无疑问，基础已经奠定了。

And incidentally, this is something we can talk about later, World War I and World War II have a lot of linkages like that.

顺便说一句，这是我们以后可以谈论的事情，第一次世界大战和第二次世界大战有很多这样的联系。

And as time goes by, I think historians are going to focus on those linkages even more.

随着时间的推移，我认为历史学家将更加关注这些联系。

But Lenin also in his leadership against the odds, leads the Bolsheviks to power in the Russian Civil War where most betting people would’ve given them very slight odds of even surviving, given how many enemies they faced off against.

但列宁也在他的领导下克服了困难，带领布尔什维克在俄罗斯内战中掌权，考虑到他们面对的敌人有多少，大多数赌徒都会认为他们生存的几率很小。

1:17:17 Lenin’s insistence upon discipline and upon good organization allowed the Bolsheviks to emerge as the winners.

列宁对纪律和良好组织的坚持使布尔什维克成为胜利者。

And yet a great disappointment follows.

然而随之而来的是巨大的失望。

Lenin, as we said, had expected that revolution will break out soon everywhere and all it’ll be necessary for the Bolsheviks to do, having given the lead, is to link up with others.

正如我们所说，列宁预计革命很快就会在各地爆发，而布尔什维克在发挥领导作用后所要做的就是与其他人联合起来。

So he considered that what would be established would be a red bridge between a communist Russia, and once Germany inevitably plunged ahead into its revolutionary transformation, a communist Germany.

因此他认为，将在共产主义的俄罗斯和一旦德国不可避免地陷入革命转型的共产主义德国之间建立一座红色桥梁。

That doesn’t end up happening.

但这最终并没有发生。

On the contrary, what happens in Germany is a out-and-out shooting war between different kinds of socialists.

相反，德国发生的事情是不同类型的社会主义者之间不折不扣的枪战。

When Germany establishes a democracy that later goes by the name of the Weimar Republic, the government is a government of Social Democrats, moderate Social Democrats who are fearful of what they see as Russian conditions of disorder and who are not necessarily in sympathy with the Leninist vision of tightly-organized authoritarian rule.

当德国建立一个后来被称为魏玛共和国的民主国家时，政府是一个由社会民主党人组成的政府，这些温和的社会民主党人担心俄罗斯的混乱状况，并且不一定赞同列宁主义组织严密的独裁统治的愿景。

So communists who revolt in Germany are brutally suppressed by mercenaries, hardened front fighters and nationalist radicals hired by the German socialist government.

因此，在德国起义的共产主义者遭到德国社会主义政府雇佣的雇佣兵、顽固的前线战士和民族主义激进分子的残酷镇压。

And the result is a wound that just won’t heal in the German socialist movement as a result of this fratricide.

结果是，这场自相残杀给德国社会主义运动留下了无法愈合的伤口。

It frustrates Lenin’s ambitions.

它挫败了列宁的野心。

So too does the fact that Poland, rather than going Bolshevik, resists attempts by the Bolsheviks to move forward and to connect up with Germany.

波兰并没有走向布尔什维克，而是抵制布尔什维克前进并与德国联系的尝试，这一事实也是如此。

The Poles, yet again, play a tremendously important historical role in changing the expected course of historical events.

波兰人再次在改变历史事件的预期进程方面发挥了极其重要的历史作用。

It’s in the aftermath of these unexpected turns that Lenin and his colleagues realize that they’re in this for the long haul.

正是在这些意想不到的转折之后，列宁和他的同事们意识到他们要长期坚持下去。

It’s necessary to wait longer.

需要等待更长的时间。

They don’t lose hope or confidence, you might say, in the eventual coming of international workers revolution.

你可能会说，他们并没有对国际工人革命的最终到来失去希望或信心。

1:19:39 But it’s been deferred, it’s been put off.

但它被推迟了，它被推迟了。

So the question then arises, what do you build within a state that’s established called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics or the Soviet Union?

那么问题来了，在一个被称为苏维埃社会主义共和国联盟或苏联的国家内，你要建设什么？

Lenin, as a result of an assassination attempt, is deeply affected in his health and would’ve loved to continue for years longer to steer the regime.

列宁由于一次暗杀企图，健康状况受到严重影响，他很想继续领导政权多年。

But he’s sidelined because of his declining health.

但由于健康状况每况愈下，他被排除在外。

And there emerges a contest.

于是一场竞赛出现了。

A contest between a very charismatic leader, Leo Trotsky on the one hand, who is an amazing orator, who is an intellectual, who has traveled widely in the world, who has seen much of the world, and who is a brilliant writer.

一方面，这是一位非常有魅力的领导人之间的较量，列夫·托洛茨基是一位出色的演说家，一位知识分子，一位游历世界各地，见过很多世界的人，一位才华横溢的作家。

A far-ranging intellect, and is seen as extremely radical because of his demand for permanent revolution, the acceleration of revolutionary processes to drive history forward, to strike while the iron is hot.

知识渊博，被视为极端激进，因为他要求不断革命，加速革命进程，推动历史前进，趁热打铁。

And on the other hand is an extremely unlikely contender for power.

另一方面，他是一个极不可能的权力竞争者。

1:20:57 That’s a man who’s probably the antithesis of charisma if you were to meet him in person.

如果你亲自见到他，他可能与个人魅力截然相反。

A guy with a squeaky, somewhat high-pitched voice, not well-suited to revolutionary oratory.

一个声音尖锐、有点高亢的人，不太适合革命演讲。

His face pockmarked with the scars of youthful illness and whom, moreover, doesn’t speak a fine sophisticated Russian.

他的脸上布满了年轻时患病留下的疤痕，而且他不会说一口流利而老练的俄语。

But speaks a Russian heavily inflected with a Georgian accent from that part of the Russian Empire from which he came.

但他说的是带有浓重格鲁吉亚口音的俄语，来自他来自的俄罗斯帝国地区。

And that was Stalin.

那就是斯大林。

I know that you already have a marvelous interview with Stephen Kotkin, the brilliant biographer of Stalin who has so many insights on that subject.

我知道您已经对史蒂芬·科特金进行了一次精彩的采访，他是斯大林的杰出传记作家，在这个主题上有很多见解。

The one thing that, even after reading about Stalin, that never ceases to surprise me, even in retrospect, is that Stalin gains a reputation not as a fiery radical, but as a moderate.

有一件事，即使在阅读了有关斯大林的文章之后，即使回想起来，也始终让我感到惊讶，那就是斯大林获得的声誉不是一个激烈的激进分子，而是一个温和派。

A man who’s a conciliator.

一个善于调解的人。

Someone who’s calm when others are excited.

当别人兴奋时却保持冷静的人。

Someone who is able because of his organizational skills to resolve merely theoretical disputes with practical solutions.

由于其组织能力而能够用实际解决方案解决理论争议的人。

1:22:17 Now, to fully take this aboard, we have to unknow what we know from our vantage point about Stalin’s leadership, Stalin’s brutality and eliminating his opposition.

现在，为了充分理解这一点，我们必须从我们的角度了解我们对斯大林的领导、斯大林的残暴以及消除他的反对派所了解的情况。

The cult of personality that, against all odds, got built up around Stalin so successfully and the absolute dominant role that led him later to be described as Genghis Khan with a telephone.

尽管困难重重，个人崇拜在斯大林周围成功地建立起来，而他的绝对主导地位使他后来被描述为拥有电话的成吉思汗。

A brutal dictator with ancient barbarism allied to the use of modern technology.

一位残暴的独裁者，将古老的野蛮行为与现代技术的使用结合起来。

While Trotsky is delivering stirring speeches and theorizing, Stalin works behind the scenes to control personnel decisions in the Bolshevik movement and in the state.

当托洛茨基发表激动人心的演讲和理论时，斯大林在幕后控制布尔什维克运动和国家的人事决策。

It’s a cliche because it’s true, that personnel is policy.

这是陈词滥调，因为这是事实，人员就是政策。

Trotsky is increasingly sidelined and then demonized and eventually expelled from the Soviet Union and later murdered in Mexico City.

托洛茨基逐渐被边缘化，然后被妖魔化，最终被驱逐出苏联，后来在墨西哥城被谋杀。

For Stalin, eliminating his enemies turned out to be the solution that he was most comfortable with.

对于斯大林来说，消灭敌人是他最满意的解决方案。

From that perspective, there’s a lot of fascinating things here.

从这个角度来看，这里有很多令人着迷的东西。

1:23:29 So one, is that you can have a wolf, a brutal dictator in moderate clothing.

其一，你可以拥有一只狼，一个穿着朴素服装的残暴独裁者。

Just because somebody presents as moderate-

仅仅因为有人表现得温和-

That’s right.

没错。

…

……

1:23:45 doesn’t mean they can’t be one of the most destructive, not the most destructive, humans in history.

并不意味着他们不能成为历史上最具破坏性的人类之一。

The other aspect is, using propaganda you can construct an image of a person.

另一方面是，通过宣传可以塑造一个人的形象。

Even though they’re uncharismatic not attractive, their voice is no good.

尽管他们没有魅力，没有吸引力，但他们的声音也不好。

All of those aspects, you can still have…

所有这些方面，您仍然可以拥有……

There’s still, to this day, a very large number of people that see him as a religious type of god-like figure.

直到今天，仍然有很多人将他视为宗教类型的神一样的人物。

So the power of propaganda there.

所以宣传的力量就在那里。

Today, we would call that curating the image, right?

今天，我们称之为策划图像，对吗？

Curating the image.

策划图像。

1:24:21 But to the extent to which you can do that effectively is quite incredible.

但你能有效地做到这一点的程度是相当令人难以置信的。

So in that way also Stalin is a study of the power of propaganda.

因此，斯大林也是对宣传力量的研究。

Can we just talk about the ways that the power vacuum is filled by Stalin, how that manifests itself?

我们能否只谈谈斯大林填补权力真空的方式，以及如何表现出来？

Perhaps one angle we can take is how was the secret police used?

或许我们可以从一个角度来看，秘密警察是如何使用的？

How did power manifest itself under Stalin?

斯大林统治下的权力是如何体现的？

Well, before getting to the secret police, I would just want to add the other crucial element, which is Lenin’s patronage.

好吧，在谈到秘密警察之前，我只想补充另一个关键因素，那就是列宁的赞助。

1:24:49 Stalin doesn’t brawl his way into the Bolshevik party and dominate.

斯大林并没有通过争吵进入布尔什维克党并占据主导地位。

He’s co-opted and promoted to positions of importance by Lenin who sees him as a somewhat rough around the edges, not very sophisticated, much less cosmopolitan than other Bolsheviks.

他被列宁提拔并提拔到重要职位，列宁认为他有点粗鲁，不够成熟，远不如其他布尔什维克那么国际化。

But dependable, reliable, and committed revolutionary.

但可靠、可靠且致力于革命。

One of the things that’s emerged, especially after archives opened up with the fall of the Soviet Union and we were able to read more and more the communications of Lenin, is that it’s not the case that we’re talking here about an unconnected series of careers.

出现的一件事是，我们在这里谈论的并不是一系列互不相关的职业生涯，尤其是在苏联解体后档案开放并且我们能够阅读越来越多的列宁的通讯之后。

Rather there are connections to be made.

相反，需要建立一些联系。

It’s true that towards the end of his life, Lenin came to be worried by complaints about Stalin’s rudeness towards fellow Bolsheviks.

确实，在晚年，列宁开始对斯大林对布尔什维克同胞的粗鲁行为感到担忧。

And in his testament, he warned against Stalin’s testimonies.

在他的遗嘱中，他对斯大林的证词提出警告。

1:25:56 Lenin fundamentally saw himself as irreplaceable, so that doesn’t really help in a succession struggle.

列宁从根本上认为自己是不可替代的，因此这对继承斗争并没有真正的帮助。

Stalin is able to rely on a secret police apparatus that had been built up under Lenin already.

斯大林能够依靠列宁领导下已经建立的秘密警察机构。

It’s very early in the foundation of the Soviet state that the Cheka or the Extraordinary Commission is established as a secret police to terrify the enemies, beat down the opponents of the regime, and to keep an eye on society more generally.

在苏联建国初期，契卡或特别委员会作为秘密警察而成立，其目的是恐吓敌人、镇压政权反对者并更广泛地关注社会。

The person who’s chosen for that task also is an anomaly among Bolsheviks.

被选来执行这项任务的人在布尔什维克中也是一个异类。

That is a man of Polish aristocratic background, Feliks Dzierzynski, who comes to be known by the nickname Iron Felix.

那是一位具有波兰贵族背景的人，费利克斯·杰尔津斯基（Feliks Dzierzynski），他的绰号是铁菲利克斯（Iron Felix）。

Here’s a man about whom a cult of personality also is created.

人们对这个人也产生了个人崇拜。

Dzierzynski is celebrated in the Soviet period as the model of someone who’s harsh but fair, an executioner but with a heart of gold.

杰尔任斯基在苏联时期被誉为严厉但公平的典范、刽子手但有一颗金子般的心。

Somebody who loves children.

一个爱孩子的人。

Somebody who has a tender heart, but forces himself to be steely willed against the opponents of the ideological project of the Bolsheviks.

他有一颗温柔的心，但强迫自己以钢铁般的意志来对抗布尔什维克意识形态计划的反对者。

1:27:22 Dzierzynski is succeeded by figures who will be absolutely instrumental to Stalin’s exercise of power, and they’re not immune either.

杰任斯基的继任者对斯大林行使权力绝对有帮助，他们也不能幸免。

Stalin, in his purges, takes care also to purge the secret police as a way of finding others upon whom to deflect blame for earlier atrocities and to produce a situation where even committed Bolsheviks are uncertain of what’s going to happen next and feel their own position to be precarious.

斯大林在清洗中还小心翼翼地清洗了秘密警察，以此寻找其他人来转嫁早期暴行的责任，并造成一种情况，即使是坚定的布尔什维克也不确定接下来会发生什么，并感到自己的地位岌岌可危。

Incidentally, there are other influences that probably wrought to bear here as well.

顺便说一句，这里可能还有其他影响。

It gets said about Stalin that he used to spend a lot of time flipping through Machiavelli’s The Prince.

据说斯大林曾经花很多时间翻阅马基雅维利的《君主论》。

It seems that Stalin’s personal copy of The Prince, nobody knows where that is, if it still exists.

似乎是斯大林的私人版《王子》，没有人知道它在哪里，是否仍然存在。

But historians have found annotations in works by Lenin that Stalin, who was a voracious reader, as it turns out, made in the back of one of the books.

但历史学家在列宁的著作中发现了斯大林的注释，斯大林是一位贪婪的读者，他在其中一本书的后面做了注释。

Which sounds almost like a commentary on Machiavelli’s, almost but not quite, suggestion that the ends justify the means.

这听起来几乎像是对马基雅维利“为目的不择手段”的评论，虽然几乎但不完全是这样。

1:28:38 Stalin’s own writing says that if someone is strong, active, and intelligent, even if they do things that other people condemn, they’re still a good person.

斯大林自己的著作说，如果一个人坚强、积极、聪明，即使他做了别人谴责的事情，他仍然是一个好人。

So Stalin’s self-conception of himself is someone who along these lines and in line with Lenin’s emphasis on practical results and discipline, somebody who gets things done.

所以斯大林对自己的自我认知是一个符合列宁强调实际结果和纪律的人，一个能把事情做好的人。

That’s the crucial ethical standard.

这是至关重要的道德标准。

And ultimately in criticisms by later dissidents of Bolshevik morality, this question of, what is the ethical standard?

最终，在后来的持不同政见者对布尔什维克道德的批评中，道德标准是什么？

What is the ethical law?

什么是道德法则？

We’ll bring this question into focus because by the…

我们将重点关注这个问题，因为……

And this goes back to Marx as well, incidentally.

顺便说一句，这也可以追溯到马克思。

The notion that any ethical system, any notion of right or wrong is purely a product of class identity.

任何道德体系、任何对错观念纯粹是阶级认同的产物。

Because every class produces its distinctive ideas, its distinctive religion, its distinctive art forms, it’s distinctive styles.

因为每个阶级都会产生其独特的思想、其独特的宗教、其独特的艺术形式、其独特的风格。

Means that with no one transcendent or absolute morality, it’s all up for grabs.

意味着没有一个超越或绝对的道德，一切都是可以争夺的。

And then it’s a question of power and the exercise of power with no limits, untrammeled by any laws whatsoever.

这就是一个权力问题，以及权力的行使不受任何限制、不受任何法律限制的问题。

Dictatorship in its purest form.

最纯粹形式的独裁。

Something that Lenin had avowed, and then Stalin comes to practice even more fully.

这是列宁所宣称的，然后斯大林更加充分地实践了这一点。

Not that it’s possible to look deep into a person’s heart, but if you look at Trotsky, you could say that he probably believed deeply in Marxism and communism.

并不是说能看透一个人的内心深处，但如果你看托洛茨基，你可以说他很可能深信马克思主义和共产主义。

1:30:08 Probably the same with Lenin.

列宁大概也是这样。

What do you think Stalin believed?

你认为斯大林相信什么？

Was he a believer?

他是信徒吗？

Was he a pragmatist that used communism as a way to gain power and ideology as part of propaganda?

他是一个实用主义者，利用共产主义作为获得权力和意识形态作为宣传的一部分的方式吗？

Or did he, in his own private moments, deeply believe in the utopia?

或者说，他在私人时刻深信乌托邦？

That’s an excellent question.

这是一个很好的问题。

1:30:35 And you’re quite right, we cannot peer into the inmost recesses of somebody’s being and know for sure.

你说得对，我们无法窥探某人内心的最深处并确切地知道。

My intuition, though, is that this may be a false alternative, a false dichotomy.

但我的直觉是，这可能是一个错误的选择，一个错误的二分法。

It’s natural enough to see somebody who does monstrous things to say, “Well, this ideology is being used as a cover for it.” My suspicion is that these were actually perfectly compatible in his historical role.

看到有人做了可怕的事情，他会很自然地说：“好吧，这种意识形态被用来掩盖它。”我怀疑这些实际上与他的历史角色完全兼容。

The notion that there’s an ideology, it gives you a master plan for how history is going to develop and your own power, the increase of that power to unprecedented proportions.

存在一种意识形态的概念，它为你提供了历史将如何发展的总体规划，以及你自己的权力，将这种权力增加到前所未有的比例。

Your ability to torment even your own faithful followers in order just to see them squirm, which Stalin was famous for, to keep people unsettled.

你甚至可以折磨你自己忠实的追随者，只是为了看到他们蠕动，这就是斯大林闻名的，让人们不安。

To me, it seems that, for some people, those might not actually be opposed, but might even be mutually reinforcing, which is a very scary thought.

在我看来，对于某些人来说，这些可能实际上并不是对立的，甚至可能是相辅相成的，这是一个非常可怕的想法。

It’s terrifying, but it’s really important to understand.

这很可怕，但理解这一点确实很重要。

1:31:44 If we look at when Stalin takes power at some of the policies.

如果我们看看斯大林掌权时的一些政策。

The collectivization of agriculture.

农业集体化。

Why do you think that failed so catastrophically, especially in the 1930s with Ukraine and Poland and more?

您认为为什么会失败得如此灾难性，特别是在 20 世纪 30 年代的乌克兰和波兰等国家？

I think the short answer is that the Bolsheviks in particular, but also communists more generally have had a very conflicted relationship with agriculture.

我认为简短的答案是，特别是布尔什维克，而且更普遍的是共产党人与农业的关系非常矛盾。

1:32:09 Agriculture, as a very vital, obviously, but also very traditional and old form of human activity has about it all of the smell of tradition and other problematic factors as well.

农业显然是一种非常重要、但又非常传统和古老的人类活动形式，它充满了传统的味道和其他有问题的因素。

In a place like Russia or the Russian Empire peasants, throughout history, for centuries, had wanted one thing, and that was to be left alone to farm their own land.

在像俄罗斯或俄罗斯帝国这样的地方，纵观历史，几个世纪以来，农民一直想要一件事，那就是独自耕种自己的土地。

That’s their utopia.

那是他们的乌托邦。

And that, for someone like Marx who had a vision of historical development and transcendence-

而对于像马克思这样具有历史发展和超越愿景的人来说——

1:33:00 …

……

who had a vision of historical development and transcendence and progress as being absolutely key does not mesh at all with that vision.

谁将历史发展、超越和进步视为绝对关键，这一愿景与这一愿景根本不相符。

For that reason, when Marx comes up with this tableau, this tremendous display of historical transformation taking place over centuries and headed towards the final utopia, the role of farmers there is negligible.

因此，当马克思提出这个画面，这个发生了几个世纪并走向最终乌托邦的历史变革的巨大展示时，农民的作用是可以忽略不计的。

Peasants get called conservative and dull as sacks of potatoes in Marx’s historical vision because they’re limited in their horizon.

在马克思的历史视野中，农民被称为保守而迟钝的人，因为他们的视野有限。

They farm their land, their plot, and don’t have greater revolutionary goals beyond working the land and having it free and clear.

他们耕种自己的土地、自己的土地，除了耕种土地并使其自由和干净之外，没有更大的革命目标。

1:33:49 By contrast, industrialization, that’s progress.

相比之下，工业化就是进步。

I mean, images that today would be deeply disturbing to an environmentalist’s sensibility.

我的意思是，这些图像在今天会深深地扰乱环保主义者的情感。

Smokestacks, belching smoke, the byproducts of industry, a landscape transformed by the factory model.

烟囱，喷出的浓烟，工业的副产品，工厂模式改造的景观。

That’s what Marx, and then later the Bolsheviks, have in mind.

这就是马克思以及后来的布尔什维克的想法。

Similarly, the goal even as articulated in Marx’s writings, is to put agriculture and farming on a factory model so that you won’t need to deal with this traditional role of the independent farmer or the peasant.

同样，正如马克思著作中所阐述的那样，目标是将农业和耕作置于工厂模式下，这样你就不需要处理独立农民或农民的传统角色。

Instead, you’ll have people who benefit from progress, benefit from rationalization by working factory farms.

相反，人们会从进步中受益，从工厂化农场的合理化中受益。

1:34:37 So, in approaching the question of collectivization, we have to keep in mind that for Stalin and his comrades who are bound and determined to drag Russia kicking and screaming into the modern age and not to allow it be beaten because of its backwardness, as Stalin puts it, traditional forms of agriculture are not what they have in mind.

因此，在解决集体化问题时，我们必须记住，对于斯大林和他的同志们来说，他们有义务并决心将俄罗斯拖入现代，而不是像斯大林所说的那样，让俄罗斯因为落后而被打败，传统的农业形式不是他们想要的。

And in their rank of desired outcomes, industrialization, especially massive heavy industry is the sine qua non, that’s their envisioned future.

在他们期望的结果中，工业化，特别是大规模重工业是必要条件，这是他们所设想的未来。

Agriculture rates below.

农业费率低于。

1:35:16 So in that case, the crucial significance of collectivization is to get a handle on the food situation in order to make it predictable and not to find oneself in another crisis like during the Civil War, when the cities are starving, industry is robbed of labor and the factories are at a standstill.

因此，在这种情况下，集体化的关键意义在于控制粮食状况，使其可预测，而不是陷入另一场像内战期间那样的危机，当时城市正在挨饿，工业被剥夺劳动力，工厂处于停顿状态。

So, this is really the core approach to collectivization, to put the productive capacities of the farmers in a regimented way, in a state-controlled way under the control of the state.

所以，这确实是集体化的核心方法，将农民的生产能力以一种有组织的方式、以一种国家控制的方式置于国家的控制之下。

1:35:53 This produces vast human suffering because for the farmers, their plot of land that they thought they had gained as a result of the revolution is now taken away.

这给人类带来了巨大的痛苦，因为对于农民来说，他们认为自己因革命而获得的土地现在被剥夺了。

They no longer have the same incentives they had before to be successful farmers.

他们不再像以前那样有动力成为成功的农民。

In fact, if you’re a successful farmer and maybe have a cow as opposed to your neighbors who have no cow, you’re defamed and denounced as a kulak, a tight-fisted, exploiter, even though you might be helping to develop agriculture in the region that you’re from.

事实上，如果你是一位成功的农民，并且可能拥有一头牛，而你的邻居没有牛，你就会被诽谤并被谴责为富农，即吝啬的剥削者，即使你可能正在帮助发展你所在地区的农业。

1:36:29 So, the result is human tragedy on a vast scale.

因此，其结果是大规模的人类悲剧。

And allied to that incidentally is Stalin’s sense that this is a chance to also target people who are opposed to the Bolshevik regime for other reasons, whether it’s because of their Ukrainian identity, whether it’s because of a desire for a different nationalist project.

顺便说一句，斯大林认为，这也是一个针对那些因其他原因反对布尔什维克政权的人的机会，无论是因为他们的乌克兰身份，还是因为渴望不同的民族主义项目。

For Stalin, there are many motives that roll into collectivization.

对于斯大林来说，集体化有很多动机。

And the final thing to be said is you are quite right that collectivization proves to be a failure because the Soviet Union never finally gets a grasp on the problems of agricultural production.

最后要说的是，你说的很对，集体化被证明是失败的，因为苏联从未最终解决农业生产问题。

1:37:17 By the end of the Soviet Union, they’re importing grain from the West in spite of having some tremendously rich farmland to be found worldwide.

到苏联解体时，尽管在世界各地都有一些极其丰富的农田，但他们仍在从西方进口粮食。

And the reason for that had to do in part, I think with the incentives that had been taken away.

我认为，其原因部分与被取消的激励措施有关。

Prosperous individual farmers have a motive for working their land and maximizing production.

富裕的个体农民有耕种土地和最大化产量的动机。

By contrast, if you are an employee of a factory style agricultural enterprise, the incentives run in very different directions.

相比之下，如果你是工厂式农业企业的员工，激励措施的方向就截然不同。

And the joke that was common for decades in the Soviet Union and other communist countries with similar systems was, “We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us.”

几十年来，在苏联和其他具有类似制度的共产主义国家中，流传着一个笑话：“我们假装工作，他们假装付钱给我们。”

1:38:05 Even labor, which is rhetorically respected and valorized in practice is rewarded with very slim rewards.

即使是在口头上受到尊重和在实践中受到重视的劳动，其回报也非常微薄。

And the last point, immobility.

最后一点，不动。

The collectivization reduces the mobility of the peasants who are not allowed because of internal passports to move to the cities unless they have permission.

集体化减少了农民的流动性，除非获得许可，否则由于持有内部护照，农民不得进入城市。

They’re locked in place.

它们被锁定在适当的位置。

And I got to say, at the time and afterwards, that looked a lot like feudalism or neo-feudalism in terms of the restrictions on workers in the countryside.

我不得不说，在当时和之后，就对农村工人的限制而言，这看起来很像封建主义或新封建主义。

It is a terrifying, horrific and fascinating study of how the ideal, when meeting reality, fails.

这是一部关于理想在遇到现实时如何失败的令人恐惧、可怕而又引人入胜的研究。

1:38:42 The idea here is to make agriculture more efficient, so be more productive, so the industrialized model.

这里的想法是让农业更加高效，从而提高生产力，从而实现工业化模式。

But the implementation through collectivization had all the elements that you’ve mentioned that contended with human nature.

但是通过集体化的实施具有你提到的所有与人性相冲突的因素。

First with the kulaks, so the successful farmers were punished.

首先是富农，所以成功的农民受到了惩罚。

And so then the incentive is not just to be a successful farmer, but to hide.

因此，动机不仅仅是成为一名成功的农民，而是躲藏起来。

1:39:22 Added to that, there’s a growing quota that everybody’s supposed to deliver on that nobody can deliver on.

除此之外，每个人都应该完成的配额越来越多，但没人能完成。

And so now, because you can’t deliver on that quota, you’re basically exporting all your food and you can’t even feed yourself.

所以现在，因为你无法完成这个配额，所以你基本上只能出口所有的食物，而且你甚至无法养活自己。

And then you suffer more and more and more and there’s a vicious downward spiral of you can’t possibly produce that.

然后你会遭受越来越多的痛苦，并且出现恶性循环，你不可能产生这种情况。

Now there’s another human incentive where you’re going to lie.

现在，还有另一种人类动机让你不得不撒谎。

Everybody lies on the data.

每个人都在数据上撒谎。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

And so even Stalin himself probably, as evil or incompetent as he may be, was not even getting good data about what’s even happening.

因此，即使是斯大林本人，尽管他可能是邪恶或无能的，但他甚至可能没有获得关于正在发生的事情的良好数据。

1:39:49 Even if he wanted to stop the vicious downward cycle, which he certainly didn’t, but he wouldn’t be even able to.

即使他想阻止恶性循环（他当然没有这么做），但他也做不到。

So, there’s all these dark consequences of what on paper seems like a good ideal.

因此，纸面上看似美好的理想却带来了所有这些黑暗的后果。

And it’s a fascinating study of things on paper-

这是对纸上事物的有趣研究——

Yes.

是的。

1:40:20 That’s right.

这是正确的。

…

……

1:40:21 when implemented, can go really, really bad.

一旦实施，可能会变得非常非常糟糕。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

1:40:23 And the outcome here is a horrific manmade famine.

结果就是可怕的人为饥荒。

Not a natural disaster, not bad harvest, but a manmade famine as a result of then the compulsion that gets used by the Soviet state to extract those resources, cordoning off the area, not allowing starving people to escape.

这不是自然灾害，也不是歉收，而是人为饥荒，这是苏联国家强制开采这些资源的结果，封锁了该地区，不让饥饿的人们逃脱。

You put very well some of the implications of this case study and how things look in the abstract versus in practice.

您很好地阐述了本案例研究的一些含义以及事物在抽象与实践中的表现。

And those phenomena were going to haunt the rest of the experience of the Soviet Union.

这些现象将困扰苏联的其他经历。

1:41:02 The whole notion that up and down the chain of command, everybody is falsifying or tinkering with or prettifying the statistics or their reports in order not to look bad and not to have vengeance visited upon them reaches the point where nobody, in spite of the pretense of comprehensive knowledge, there’s a state planning agency that creates five-year plans for the economy as a whole, and which is supposed to have accurate statistics.

整个指挥链上上下下，每个人都在伪造、修改或美化统计数据或他们的报告，以免自己看起来很糟糕，也不想遭到报复，以至于没有一个国家计划机构，尽管假装知识渊博，但没有一个国家计划机构为整个经济制定五年计划，并且应该有准确的统计数据。

All of this is founded upon a foundation of sand.

这一切都是建立在沙子的基础上的。

That’s inadvertent.

这是不经意的。

That’s not an intended side effect.

这不是预期的副作用。

1:41:46 But what you described in terms of the internal dynamics of fostering conflict in a rural society was absolutely not inadvertent.

但你所描述的乡村社会助长冲突的内部动力绝对不是无心的。

That was deliberate.

那是故意的。

The doctrine was you bring civil war.

原则是你会带来内战。

Now had there been social tensions before?

以前有过社会紧张局势吗？

Of course there had.

当然有。

Had there been envies, had there been differentiations in wealth or status?

是否存在嫉妒，是否存在财富或地位的差异？

Of course there had been, but a deliberate plan to bring class conflict and bring civil war and then heighten it in the countryside does damage, and not least of that is this phenomenon of a negative selection.

当然有，但故意引发阶级冲突和内战，然后在农村加剧这种冲突确实会造成损害，尤其是这种负面选择现象。

1:42:25 Those who have most enterprise, those who are most entrepreneurial, those who have most self-discipline, those who are best organized will be winnowed again and again and again, sending the message that mediocrity is comparatively much safer than talent.

那些最有进取心的人、最有进取心的人、最自律的人、最有组织性的人，将被一次又一次地筛选出来，传达出这样的信息：平庸比才华相对安全得多。

And this pattern incidentally gets transposed and in tremendously harrowing ways also to the entire group of Russian intelligentsia and intellectuals of other peoples who are in the Soviet Union.

这种模式偶然也以极其痛苦的方式被转移到了整个俄罗斯知识分子群体和苏联其他民族的知识分子身上。

They discover similarly that to be independent, to have a voice which is not compliant, carries with it tremendous penalties, especially in Stalin’s reigns of terror.

他们同样发现，独立、发出不顺从的声音会带来巨大的惩罚，尤其是在斯大林的恐怖统治下。

Again, a difficult question about a psychology of one human being, but to what degree do you think Stalin was deliberately punishing the farmers and the Ukrainian farmers?

这又是一个关于人类心理的难题，但你认为斯大林在多大程度上故意惩罚农民和乌克兰农民？

1:43:23 And to what degree was he looking the other way and allowing the large-scale incompetence, the horrific incompetence of the collectivization of agriculture to happen?

他在多大程度上视而不见，允许农业集体化的大规模无能、可怕无能的发生？

Well, I think it was both things, right?

嗯，我想这两件事都是如此，对吧？

1:43:53 I mean, there were not only sins of omission, but also sins of commission.

我的意思是，不仅有不作为之罪，也有作为之罪。

Incidentally, one should add, I don’t think for Stalin it was personal.

顺便说一句，我应该补充一点，我认为对斯大林来说这不是针对个人的。

These are people who are very remote from him.

这些人都是离他很遥远的人。

He, never coming into contact with the people who are suffering in this way.

他，从来没有接触过这样受苦的人。

Attributed to him is the quote that, “One death is a tragedy.

他引用了这样一句话：“一个人的死亡是一场悲剧。

A million deaths is a statistic.” I think he in action certainly acted in a way that would vindicate that.

一百万人死亡只是一个统计数字。”我认为他的行动确实证明了这一点。

But the process of collectivization was not just a bureaucratic snafu following on bureaucratic snafu.

但集体化的过程不仅仅是官僚混乱之后的官僚混乱。

There was the mobilization of communist youth, of military, of party activists to go into the regions and to search for hidden food, to extract the food where it could be found.

共产主义青年、军队和党的积极分子被动员起来，进入这些地区寻找隐藏的食物，在可以找到食物的地方提取食物。

1:44:50 And we have testimony to this in the case of people who later became dissidents, like Lev Kopelev, who wrote in his memoirs about how he was among those who were sent in to enact these policies, and he saw families with the last food being taken away even as signs of starvation were visible already in the present.

我们在后来成为持不同政见者的例子中得到了证明，比如列夫·科佩列夫（Lev Kopelev），他在回忆录中写道，他是如何被派去制定这些政策的人之一，他看到家庭最后的食物被拿走，尽管饥饿的迹象已经显而易见。

And yet he did not go mad.

但他并没有发疯。

He didn’t kill himself.

他没有自杀。

He didn’t fall into despair because he believed, because he had been taught and believed at least then that this was justified.

他没有陷入绝望，因为他相信，因为他被教导并至少在那时相信这是合理的。

This was a larger historical process and a greater good would result even from these enormities.

这是一个更大的历史进程，即使这些暴行也会带来更大的好处。

So, I think that this was quite deliberate.

所以，我认为这是非常故意的。

Following this, as you’ve mentioned, there was the process of the Great Terror, where the intellectuals, where the Communist Party officials, the military officers, the bureaucrats, everybody.

接下来，正如你所提到的，是大恐怖的过程，知识分子、共产党官员、军官、官僚，每个人都在那里。

1:45:39 750,000 people were executed, and over a million people were sent to the Gulag.

75万人被处决，超过100万人被送往古拉格。

What can you say by way of wisdom from this process of the Great Terror that Stalin implemented from ’36 to ’38?

从斯大林从36年到38年实施的大恐怖过程中，你能说些什么智慧吗？

Well, the terror had a variety of victims.

好吧，恐怖活动有各种各样的受害者。

1:46:15 There were people who were true believers and who were Bolsheviks, who were especially targeted by Stalin because he aimed to revenge himself for all the sort of condescension that he’d experienced in that movement before.

有些人是真正的信徒，他们是布尔什维克，他们是斯大林特别针对的目标，因为他的目的是为自己之前在那场运动中经历的所有屈尊俯就的行为进行报复。

And also to eliminate rivals or potential rival power centers and members of their families.

还要消除竞争对手或潜在竞争对手的权力中心及其家庭成员。

And then there were people who simply got caught up in a process whereby the repressive organs in the provinces were sent quotas.

还有一些人只是陷入了向各省镇压机关发送配额的过程中。

You have to achieve your quota and maybe even better yet, overachieve your quota, over perform.

你必须达到你的配额，甚至更好，超额完成你的配额，超额完成任务。

That would be the key to success and rising in the bureaucracies in the age of the terror.

这将是恐怖时代官僚机构成功和崛起的关键。

1:47:03 What’s so horrifying is the way in which a whole society stood paralyzed in this process and how neighbors would be taken away in the middle of the night and people would be wary of talking about it.

可怕的是整个社会在这个过程中陷入瘫痪，邻居会在半夜被带走，人们会小心翼翼地谈论这件事。

Resistance, at least in these urban centers, was entirely paralyzed by fear when, if one had somehow find a way to mobilize ,somehow a way to resist the process, the results might’ve been different.

至少在这些城市中心，抵抗完全因恐惧而瘫痪，如果人们能以某种方式找到一种动员方式，以某种方式抵制这一过程，结果可能会有所不同。

There’s an astonishing book…

有一本令人惊奇的书……

I mean, there are so many great books that have come out quite recently even on these topics.

我的意思是，最近出现了很多关于这些主题的好书。

1:47:46 Orlando Figes has a amazing book called The Whisperers that traces several families’ history in the Stalin period, and it’s a testimony to how a whole society and some of its most intelligent people got winnowed again and again and again in that process of negative selection that we talked about.

奥兰多·费吉斯（Orlando Figes）有一本很棒的书，名叫《耳语者》（The Whisperers），它追溯了斯大林时期几个家族的历史，它见证了整个社会及其一些最聪明的人如何在我们谈到的负面选择过程中一次又一次地被筛选。

The lasting dislocation and scars that this left and the way in which how people were not able to talk about these things in public because that would put you next on the list, suspected of having less than total devotion to the state.

这留下了持久的混乱和伤痕，以及人们如何无法在公共场合谈论这些事情，因为这会让你成为名单上的下一个，被怀疑对国家没有完全的奉献。

1:48:28 I think one of the things that also is so terrifying about the entire process is even total devotion wasn’t enough.

我认为整个过程中最可怕的一件事是，即使完全投入也还不够。

The process took on a life of its own, and I think that it might even have surprised Stalin in some ways.

这个过程有了自己的生命力，我认为它甚至可能在某些方面让斯大林感到惊讶。

Not enough to short-circuit the process, but the notion where people were invited to denounce neighbors, coworkers, maybe even family members, meant that ever larger groups of people would be brought into the orbit of the secret police, tortured in order to produce confessions.

这还不足以缩短这一过程，但邀请人们举报邻居、同事，甚至家庭成员的想法意味着越来越多的人将被带入秘密警察的轨道，遭受酷刑以供认罪。

Those confessions then would lead to more lists of suspects of people who had to be investigated and either executed or sent to the gulags.

这些供词将导致更多的嫌疑人名单必须接受调查，要么被处决，要么被送往古拉格集中营。

The uncertainty that this produced was enormous.

这产生了巨大的不确定性。

1:49:28 Even loyalty was not enough to save people.

即使忠诚也不足以拯救人们。

The stories, Solzhenitsyn’s Gulag Archipelago is full of stories of dedicated communists who find themselves in the Gulag and are sure that some mistake has been made.

索尔仁尼琴的古拉格群岛的故事充满了忠诚的共产主义者的故事，他们发现自己身处古拉格，并确信已经犯了一些错误。

And if only comrade Stalin would hear about this terrible thing that has happened to them, surely it would be corrected and nothing like this would…

如果斯大林同志听到发生在他们身上的这件可怕的事情，肯定会得到纠正，这样的事情就不会……

Everyone else, by contrast, accused of terrible crimes, there must be some truth behind that.

相比之下，其他人都被指控犯有可怕的罪行，这背后一定有一些真相。

So, talk about ways of disaggregating a society, ways of breaking down bonds of trust.

因此，谈论分解社会的方法，打破信任纽带的方法。

This left lasting traces on an entire society that endured to this very day.

这在整个社会留下了持久的痕迹，一直持续到今天。

Yeah, there again, a fascinating study of human nature, that there essentially was an emergent quota of confessions of treason.

是的，这又是一项对人性的令人着迷的研究，本质上存在着一个新兴的叛国罪供认配额。

1:50:17 So, even though the whole society was terrified and were through terror, loyal, there still needed to be a lot of confessions of people being disloyal, so you’re just making up now.

所以说，虽然整个社会都害怕了，都恐怖了，忠诚了，但是还是需要很多不忠诚的人的忏悔，所以你现在就和好了。

At a mass scale, stuff is being made up.

在大规模范围内，东西正在被编造。

And it’s also the machine of the secret police starts eating itself because you want to be confessing on your boss.

这也是秘密警察的机器开始自我吞噬，因为你想向你的老板坦白。

It is just this weird, dark, dynamic system where human nature just it at its worst.

正是在这个怪异、黑暗、动态的系统中，人性处于最糟糕的状态。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

1:51:06 Absolutely.

绝对地。

Why, if we look at this deep discussion we had about Marxism, to what degree can we understand from that lens why the implementation of communism in the Soviet Union failed in such a dark way?

为什么，如果我们看看我们对马克思主义的深入讨论，我们能在多大程度上从这个角度理解为什么共产主义在苏联的实施会如此黑暗地失败？

1:51:09 Both in the economic system with agriculture and industrialization, and on the human way with just violation of every possible human right and the torture and the suffering and gulags and all of this?

无论是在农业和工业化的经济体系中，还是在人类的道路上，都公正地侵犯了每一项可能的人权以及酷刑、苦难和古拉格以及所有这一切？

Well, I think some of it comes back to the ethical grounding that we mentioned earlier.

嗯，我认为其中一些可以追溯到我们之前提到的道德基础。

1:51:42 The notion that ethics are entirely situational and that any ethical system is an outgrowth of a particular class reality, a particular material reality, and that leaves the door wide open.

这种观念认为，道德完全是情境性的，任何道德体系都是特定阶级现实、特定物质现实的产物，这为我们敞开了大门。

So, I think that that aspect was present from the very beginning.

所以，我认为这个方面从一开始就存在。

I think that the expectations of Marx, that the revolution would take hold and be successful in a developed country, played a role here as well.

我认为马克思关于革命将在发达国家扎根并取得成功的期望在这里也发挥了作用。

1:52:24 Russia, which compared to the rest of Europe, was less developed even before the First World War is in a dire state after all of the ravage and the millions of deaths that continue even after the war has ended in the West.

与欧洲其他国家相比，俄罗斯甚至在第一次世界大战之前就不太发达，在西方战争结束后遭受了所有的破坏和数百万人的死亡之后，俄罗斯仍处于可怕的状态。

That leaves precious little in the way of structural restraints or a functioning society that would say, “Let’s not do things this way.” I think that in retrospect, that special role carved out for special individuals who can move this process forward and accelerate historical development allowed for people to step into those roles and appoint themselves executors of this ideological vision.

这就几乎没有留下任何结构性限制，也没有一个正常运转的社会会说“我们不要这样做”。我认为，回想起来，为能够推动这一进程、加速历史发展的特殊个人设立的特殊角色，让人们能够进入这些角色，并任命自己为这一意识形态愿景的执行者。

So, I think those things played a role as well.

所以，我认为这些事情也发挥了作用。

Now, it’s hard to do counterfactual history, but to what degree is this basically that the communist ideals create a power vacuum and a dictator type figure steps in, and then it’s a roll of the dice of what that dictator is like?

现在，很难做反事实的历史，但共产主义理想在多大程度上创造了权力真空，独裁者类型的人物介入，然后是掷骰子来决定独裁者是什么样子？

1:53:18 So can you imagine a world where the dictator was Trotsky.

那么你能想象一个托洛茨基是独裁者的世界吗？

Would we see very similar type of things?

我们会看到非常相似的东西吗？

Or is the hardness and the brutality of somebody like Stalin manifested itself in being able to look the other way as some of these dark things were happening more so than somebody like Trotsky who would presumably see the realizations of these policies and be shocked?

或者，像斯大林这样的人的冷酷和残暴是否表现在，当这些黑暗的事情发生时，他们能够以另一种方式看待，而不是像托洛茨基这样的人，他们可能会看到这些政策的实现并感到震惊？

Well, counterfactuals are hard, like you said.

嗯，就像你说的，反事实很难。

1:54:00 And one very quickly gets off into really deep waters in speculation.

人们很快就会陷入投机的深渊。

There were contemporaries and there have been scholars since who suggest that Trotsky, by all indications might’ve been even more radical than Stalin in the tempo that he wanted to achieve.

有同时代人和此后的学者认为，从各种迹象来看，托洛茨基在他想要达到的节奏上可能比斯大林更加激进。

Think of the slogan of permanent revolution.

想想不断革命的口号。

Trotsky also, who dabbled in so many things in his intellectual life, also spoke in almost utopian terms that are just astonishing to read.

托洛茨基在他的知识生活中涉猎了如此多的事情，他也用近乎乌托邦式的术语说话，读起来令人惊讶。

1:54:38 In utopian terms about the construction of the new man and the new woman, and that out of the raw material of humanity, once you really get going, and once you’ve established a system that matches your hopes for the future, it’ll be possible to reconfigure people.

用乌托邦的话来说，就是用人类的原材料来构建新男人和新女人，一旦你真正开始行动，一旦你建立了一个符合你对未来希望的系统，就有可能重新配置人们。

And talk about ambition, to create essentially the next stage in human evolution, a new species growing out of humanity.

并谈论野心，本质上创造人类进化的下一阶段，从人类中成长出一个新物种。

Those don’t sound like very modest or limited approaches, and I guess we just really won’t know.

这些听起来不像是非常温和或有限的方法，我想我们真的不知道。

Do some of the destructive characteristics of communism have to go hand in hand?

共产主义的一些破坏性特征是否必须同时存在？

1:55:12 So, the central planning that we talked about, the censorship with the secret police, the concentration of power in one dictatorial figure.

因此，我们谈到的中央计划、秘密警察的审查制度、权力集中在一个独裁者身上。

And let’s say again with the secret police, the violent oppression.

我们再说一遍秘密警察的暴力镇压。

One should add to those factors that have a kind of interrelated logic of their own, the sheer fact that communism comes to power in most of these instances as a result of war.

除了那些具有自身相互关联逻辑的因素之外，我们还应该加上这样一个事实：在大多数情况下，共产主义是通过战争上台的。

1:55:34 As a result of the destruction of what came before and a power vacuum.

由于之前的破坏和权力真空。

So, think of the Russian revolutions in the wake of the fall of Tsarism.

因此，想想沙皇制度垮台后的俄罗斯革命。

Think of the expansion of Stalin’s puppet regimes into Eastern Europe in the wake of World War II and the Red Army moving into occupied areas in Eastern Europe, although they announced that they’re coming as liberators.

想想第二次世界大战后斯大林傀儡政权向东欧扩张，以及红军进入东欧被占领地区，尽管他们宣称自己是作为解放者而来。

Consider the foundation of communist China on the heels of World War II, and yet more Chinese civil war.

想想第二次世界大战之后共产主义中国的建立，以及更多的中国内战。

Consider cases like Korea, Vietnam.

考虑像韩国、越南这样的例子。

It’s likely that this already is a key element in setting things up for further crisis because upon seizure of power, if your expectation is, “Well, it ought to be relatively easy to get this system rolling and put it on a basis that’s after all, we have the roadmap to the future,” there will follow frustrations and impediments and resistance.

这很可能已经成为为进一步危机做好准备的关键因素，因为在夺取权力后，如果你的期望是，“好吧，让这个系统运转起来应该相对容易，并将其建立在毕竟我们有未来路线图的基础上”，那么挫折、障碍和阻力就会随之而来。

And there’s a ratchet effect then there because it’ll produce more repression, producing even more problems that follow.

那里存在棘轮效应，因为它会产生更多的镇压，从而产生更多的问题。

1:57:06 What drives the whole thing forward, though, especially in its Leninist version, but already visible with Marx and Engels is the insistence on confidence.

然而，推动整个事情向前发展的因素，尤其是在列宁主义版本中，但在马克思和恩格斯身上已经显而易见的是对信心的坚持。

If you have the key to the future, all of these things are possible and necessary.

如果你掌握了未来的钥匙，那么所有这些事情都是可能且必要的。

This leads to an ethos.

这导致了一种精神气质。

I think that that’s very hard for historians to quantify or to study in a methodical way, but it’s the insistence that you hear with Lenin and then especially with Stalin, that to be a Bolshevik means to be hard, to be realistic, to be consequential, meaning you don’t shy away from doing what needs to be done.

我认为历史学家很难量化或以系统的方式进行研究，但你从列宁，尤其是斯大林那里听到的坚持是，成为布尔什维克意味着要努力，要现实，要重要，意味着你不会回避做需要做的事情。

Even if your primordial ethical remainders from whatever earlier experience you have, rebel against it.

即使你的原始道德残留于你之前的经历中，也要反抗它。

1:58:03 Under Stalin, there’s a constant slogan of the Bolshevik tempo.

在斯大林的领导下，布尔什维克节奏的口号始终存在。

The Bolsheviks, there’s no fortresses that they can’t storm.

布尔什维克，没有他们攻不下的堡垒。

They can do everything.

他们可以做一切事情。

And in a way, this is the assertion that its will over everything.

在某种程度上，这是一种意志凌驾于一切之上的断言。

History can be moved forward and accelerated and probably your own actions justified as a result, no matter what they were, if you are sufficiently hard and determined and have the confidence to follow through.

如果你有足够的努力和决心，并有信心坚持到底，历史就可以向前推进和加速，你自己的行为可能会因此而得到证明，无论它们是什么。

And then that obviously raises the ultimate question, what happens when that confidence ebbs or erodes or when it’s lost?

那么这显然提出了最终的问题，当信心消退、削弱或丧失时会发生什么？

If we go to the 1920s to the home of Karl Marx.

如果我们回到 20 年代卡尔·马克思的故乡。

1:58:39 Fascism, as implemented by the Nazi party in Germany, was called the National Socialist German Workers Party.

德国纳粹党推行的法西斯主义被称为德国国家社会主义工人党。

So, what were the similarities and differences of fascism, socialism, how it was conceived of in fascism and communism?

那么，法西斯主义、社会主义有何异同，法西斯主义和共产主义是如何被构想的呢？

And maybe you could speak to the broader battle of ideas that was happening at the time and battle of political control that was happening at the time.

也许你可以谈论当时正在发生的更广泛的思想之战以及当时正在发生的政治控制之战。

Well, I mean, there’s a whole bunch of terms that are in play here, right?

嗯，我的意思是，这里有一大堆术语在起作用，对吧？

1:59:15 And when we speak of fascism, fascism in its original sense is a radical movement founded in Italy, which though it had been allegedly on the winning side of World War I is disappointed with the lack of rise in national prestige and territory that commences after the end of the.

当我们谈到法西斯主义时，其原始意义上的法西斯主义是一场在意大利创立的激进运动，尽管意大利据称是第一次世界大战的获胜方，但对一战结束后国家威望和领土缺乏上升感到失望。

So bizarrely enough, it’s a socialist by the name of Benito Mussolini, who crafts an ideological message of glorification of the state.

奇怪的是，这是一位名叫贝尼托·墨索里尼的社会主义者，他精心传达了颂扬国家的意识形态信息。

The people at large united in a militaristic way, on the march, ready to attack, ready to expand.

广大人民以军国主义的方式团结起来，行军，准备进攻，准备扩张。

A complete overthrow of liberal ideas of the rights of the individual or of representative democracy, and instead, vesting power in one leader, in his case, the Duce, Mussolini, in order to replicate in peacetime the ideal of total military mobilization in wartime.

彻底推翻个人权利或代议制民主的自由主义思想，取而代之的是，将权力赋予一位领导人，就他而言，就是领袖墨索里尼，以便在和平时期复制战时全面军事动员的理想。

Although the Nazis in Germany are inspired and borrow heavily from fascist ideology, there also are different emphases that they include, and that includes their virulent racism from the outset, which in addition to a glorification of the state, glorification of the leader and preparation for national greatness, race is absolutely core.

尽管德国纳粹深受法西斯意识形态的启发和借鉴，但他们也有不同的侧重点，其中包括他们从一开始就恶毒的种族主义，除了颂扬国家、颂扬领袖和为民族伟大做准备之外，种族绝对是核心。

And it’s that racial radicalism that the Nazis espouse as a central idea, along with anti-Semitism, the demonizing in particular of the Jews and this insane racialist cosmology that the Nazis avow.

纳粹所拥护的种族激进主义是其中心思想，此外还有反犹太主义、对犹太人的妖魔化以及纳粹所宣称的疯狂的种族主义宇宙论。

2:01:17 It is the assertion that the Nazis will uniquely bring to pass unity in the people, unity in the society that leads them to give themselves this odd name of national socialist.

纳粹声称将以独特的方式实现人民的团结、社会的团结，这导致他们给自己起了国家社会主义这个奇怪的名字。

Some leaders like Goebbels among the Nazis, accent the socialist part to begin with.

纳粹分子中的戈培尔等一些领导人一开始就强调社会主义部分。

Others put the accent firmly on the nationalist part.

其他人则将重点放在民族主义部分。

In part, the term they chose for their movement was meant to be confusing.

在某种程度上，他们为自己的运动选择的术语是为了令人困惑。

It was meant to take slogans or words from different parts of the political spectrum, to fuse them into something unfamiliar and new, and claim that they’d overcome all earlier political divisions.

它的目的是吸收政治光谱不同部分的口号或词语，将它们融合成陌生的新东西，并声称它们已经克服了所有早期的政治分歧。

The Nazis claimed that they were a movement, not a party, even though their party was called a party.

纳粹声称他们是一场运动，而不是一个政党，尽管他们的政党被称为政党。

2:02:13 So, what did Nazism and Bolshevism and Communism share, or how were they opposed to one another?

那么，纳粹主义、布尔什维克主义和共产主义有什么共同点，或者说它们是如何相互对立的呢？

What we need to start with, by making clear, they were ideological arch enemies.

首先，我们需要明确指出，他们是意识形态上的宿敌。

In both worldviews, the opposite side represented the ultimate expression of the evil that needed to be exercised from history in order for their desired utopia to be brought about.

在两种世界观中，对立面代表了邪恶的最终表现，为了实现他们所期望的乌托邦，需要从历史中运用这种邪恶。

And this leads to strange and perverted beliefs about reality.

这导致了对现实的奇怪和扭曲的信念。

From the perspective of the Nazis.

从纳粹的角度来看。

The Nazis claimed that because they saw the Jews as a demonic element in human history, the Bolsheviks didn’t really believe all of this economic dialectical materialism.

纳粹声称，因为他们将犹太人视为人类历史上的恶魔元素，所以布尔什维克并不真正相信所有这些经济辩证唯物主义。

They were in fact a racial conspiracy, it was alleged.

据称，这实际上是一场种族阴谋。

2:03:06 And so the Nazis used a term of Judeo-Bolshevism to argue that communism is essentially a conspiracy steered by the Jews, which was complete nonsense.

所以纳粹用“犹太布尔什维主义”这个词来论证共产主义本质上是犹太人操纵的阴谋，这完全是无稽之谈。

For their part, the communists, and from the perspective of the Soviet Union, the Nazis were in essence a super capitalist conspiracy.

对于共产主义者来说，从苏联的角度来看，纳粹本质上是一个超级资本主义的阴谋。

If the cosmological enemy are the capitalists and the owners, the exploiters, then all of the rigamarole about race and nationalism are distractions.

如果宇宙论的敌人是资本家和所有者、剥削者，那么所有关于种族和民族主义的废话都是干扰。

They’re meant to fool the poor saps who enlist in that movement.

他们的目的是愚弄参加该运动的可怜的笨蛋。

It’s essentially steered by capitalist owners who, it is claimed, are reduced to this desperate expedient of coming up with this thuggish-

它本质上是由资本主义所有者操纵的，据称，他们被迫采取这种绝望的权宜之计，想出了这种暴徒——

2:04:00 …

……

To this desperate expedient of coming up with this thuggish party that represents the last gasp of capitalism.

为了这个绝望的权宜之计，建立了这个代表资本主义最后一口气的凶残政党。

So, bizarrely enough, from the Communist perspective, the rise of the Nazis can be interpreted as a good sign because it means that capitalism is almost done because this is the last undisguised, naked face of capitalism nearing its end.

因此，奇怪的是，从共产主义的角度来看，纳粹的崛起可以被解释为一个好兆头，因为这意味着资本主义几乎完蛋了，因为这是资本主义接近终结的最后一张不加掩饰、赤裸裸的面孔。

Beyond this ideological total opposition, in terms of their hoped-for futures, the reality is that there were aspects that were shared on either side.

除了意识形态上的完全对立之外，就他们所希望的未来而言，现实是双方都有一些共同点。

That included the conviction that they could agree that the age of democracy was done and that the 19th century had had its day with experiments with representative democracy, the claims of human rights, classical liberal ideas, and all of this had been revealed as bankrupt.

其中包括相信他们可以同意民主时代已经结束，19世纪的代议制民主实验、人权主张、古典自由主义思想已经结束，而所有这些都已被揭露为破产。

2:05:10 It had gotten you what?

它给你带来了什么？

It got you, first, the First World War as a total conflict leaving tens of millions dead.

首先，第一次世界大战是一场全面冲突，造成数千万人死亡。

And then, economically, The Great Depression, showing that the end was not far away.

然后，在经济上，大萧条表明结束已经不远了。

This produced, at one in the same time, both ideological opposition and instances, a vastly cynical cooperation.

这同时产生了意识形态上的对立和极端愤世嫉俗的合作。

In terms of the Weimar Republic, it’s obvious, with the benefit of hindsight, that German democracy had ceased to function even before Hitler comes to power.

就魏玛共和国而言，事后看来，很明显，德国民主甚至在希特勒上台之前就已经停止运作。

But in the process of making democracy unworkable in Germany, the extremes, the Nazi Stormtrooper Army with their brown shirts and the Communist street fighters, had cooperated in heightening an atmosphere of civil war that left people searching for desperate expedience in the last days of the Weimar Republic.

但在使民主在德国行不通的过程中，极端分子、穿着棕色衬衫的纳粹冲锋队和共产党街头斗士合作加剧了内战气氛，使人们在魏玛共和国的最后日子里寻求绝望的权宜之计。

2:06:26 The most compelling case of their cooperation was the signing of the Nazi-Soviet Pact on August 23rd, 1939, which enables Hitler to start World War II.

他们合作中最引人注目的例子是 1939 年 8 月 23 日签署的纳粹-苏联条约，该条约使希特勒能够发动第二次世界大战。

A Non-Aggression Pact, in official terms, it contained secret clauses whereby the Nazis and the Soviets meeting in Moscow under Stalin’s wary eye, had agreed on territorial division of Eastern Europe and making common cause as each claiming to be the winner of the future.

用官方术语来说，《互不侵犯条约》包含秘密条款，纳粹和苏联在斯大林警惕的注视下在莫斯科会面，就东欧领土划分达成一致，并达成共同目标，各自声称自己是未来的胜利者。

So, in spite of their oppositions, these were regimes that were able, very cynically, to work together to dire effect.

因此，尽管他们反对，这些政权却能够非常愤世嫉俗地合作，产生可怕的效果。

In the course of the 1950s, in particular, there arose political scientists who also crafted an explanation for ways in which these regimes, although they were opposed to one another, actually bore morphological resemblances.

特别是在 20 世纪 50 年代，出现了一些政治学家，他们也对这些政权虽然彼此对立，但实际上在形态上具有相似之处提出了一种解释。

2:07:38 They operated in ways that, in spite of ideological differences, bore similarities.

尽管意识形态存在差异，但他们的运作方式却有相似之处。

And such political scientists, Hannah Arendt, chief among them, crafted a model called Totalitarianism, borrowing a term that the Fascists had liked about themselves, to define regimes, like the Nazis, like Stalin’s Soviet Union, for a new kind of dictatorship that was not a backwards-cast revival of ancient barbarism but was something new, a new form of dictatorship that laid total claims on hearts and minds, that didn’t want just passive obedience but wanted fanatical loyalty.

这些政治学家，汉娜·阿伦特，其中的佼佼者，创造了一个名为极权主义的模型，借用了法西斯主义者喜欢的一个术语，来定义像纳粹、斯大林的苏联这样的政权，一种新型的独裁统治，这种独裁统治不是古代野蛮主义的倒退复兴，而是一种新的东西，一种新形式的独裁统治，它对人心和思想提出了全面的要求，它不想要被动的服从，而是想要一种新的独裁统治。想要狂热的忠诚。

That combined fear with compulsion in order to generate belief in a system, or at the very least, atomize the masses to the point where they would go along with the plans of the regime.

这将恐惧与强迫结合起来，以产生对一个体系的信仰，或者至少，使群众原子化，直到他们同意该政权的计划。

2:08:38 This model has often met with very strong criticism on the grounds that no regime in human history has yet achieved total control of the population under its grip.

这种模式常常遭到强烈批评，理由是人类历史上还没有哪个政权能够完全控制其控制下的人民。

That’s true, but that’s not what Hannah Arendt was saying.

确实如此，但这不是汉娜·阿伦特所说的。

Hannah Arendt was saying, “There will always be inefficiencies, there will be resistance, there will be divergences.” What was new was not the alleged achievement of total control, it was the ambition, the articulation of the ambition that it might be possible to exercise such fundamental and thoroughgoing control of entire populations.

汉娜·阿伦特说：“总会有效率低下、会有阻力、会有分歧。”新鲜的不是所谓的全面控制的成就，而是雄心，以及雄心的表达，即有可能对全体人民实行如此根本和彻底的控制。

And the final frightening thought that Arendt kept before her was, “What if this is not a model that comes to us from benighted uncivilized ages?

阿伦特摆在她面前的最后一个令人恐惧的想法是：“如果这不是来自愚昧的未开化时代的模型怎么办？

What if this is what the future is going to look like?” That’s a horrifying intuition.

如果这就是未来的样子怎么办？”这是一种可怕的直觉。

So let me ask you about Darrell Cooper, who is a historian and podcaster, did a podcast with Tucker Carlson, and he made some claims there and elsewhere about World War II.

那么，让我问一下达雷尔·库珀（Darrell Cooper），他是一位历史学家和播客，他与塔克·卡尔森（Tucker Carlson）一起做了一个播客，他在那里和其他地方提出了一些关于第二次世界大战的说法。

2:09:41 There are two claims that I would love to get your perspective on.

我很想听听您对两种说法的看法。

First, he stated that Churchill was “The chief villain of the Second World War.” I think Darrell argues that Churchill forced Hitler to expand the war beyond Poland into a global war.

首先，他称丘吉尔是“第二次世界大战的头号恶棍”。我认为达​​雷尔认为丘吉尔迫使希特勒将战争扩展到波兰以外的全球战争。

Second, the mass murder of Jews, Poles, Slavs, Gypsies, in death camps was an accident, a by product of global war.

其次，死亡集中营对犹太人、波兰人、斯拉夫人、吉普赛人的大规模屠杀是一次意外，是全球战争的副产品。

And in fact, the most humane extermination of prisoners of war possible, given the alternative, was death by starvation.

事实上，考虑到其他选择，对战俘最人道的灭绝可能就是饿死。

So I was wondering if you can respond to each of those claims.

所以我想知道你是否可以对这些说法做出回应。

2:10:31 Well, I think that this is a bunch of absurdity and it would be laughable if it wasn’t so serious in its implications.

嗯，我认为这是一堆荒谬的事情，如果它的含义不是那么严重的话，那将是可笑的。

To address the points in turn, Churchill was not the chief villain of the Second World War.

反过来说，丘吉尔并不是第二次世界大战的罪魁祸首。

The notion that Churchill allegedly forced Hitler to escalate and expand a conflict that could have been limited to Poland, that assertion is based on a complete neglect of what Nazi ideology was.

据称丘吉尔迫使希特勒升级并扩大本可以仅限于波兰的冲突的观点是基于对纳粹意识形态的完全忽视。

The Nazi worldview and racism was not a ideology that was limited in its application, it looked toward world domination.

纳粹的世界观和种族主义并不是一种在应用上受到限制的意识形态，它的目标是统治世界。

In the years since the Nazis had come to power, they sponsored programs of education called geopolitics, which urged Germans to think incontinence, think incontinence, to see themselves as one of the superpowers that would battle for the future of the world.

纳粹掌权后的几年里，他们赞助了名为地缘政治学的教育计划，该计划敦促德国人思考失禁，思考失禁，将自己视为将为世界未来而战的超级大国之一。

Now in retrospect, we of course can see that Germany was not in a position to legitimate a claim like that but the Nazis aims were anything but limited.

现在回想起来，我们当然可以看到德国没有能力使这样的主张合法化，但纳粹的目标绝不是有限的。

2:11:59 In particular, this sort of argument has been tried out in different ways before.

特别是，这种论证以前已经以不同的方式进行过尝试。

In previous decades, there had been attempts by historians who were actually well-read and well-published to argue that World War II had been, in part, a contingent event that had been brought about by accidents or miscalculations.

在过去的几十年里，那些真正博览群书、出版了大量著作的历史学家曾试图辩称，第二次世界大战在一定程度上是一场由意外或误算引发的偶然事件。

And such explanations argued that, if you put Hitler’s ideology aside you actually could interpret him as a pretty traditional German politician in the stripe of Bismarck.

这些解释认为，如果你把希特勒的意识形态放在一边，你实际上可以将他解释为一位具有俾斯麦风格的相当传统的德国政治家。

Now, when I say it like that I think you can spot the problem immediately, when you put the ideology aside.

现在，当我这样说时，我想当你把意识形态放在一边时，你可以立即发现问题。

To try to analyze Hitler’s acts or alleged motives, in the absence of the ideology that he himself subscribed to and described in hateful detail in Mein Kampf and other manifestos and speeches, is an enterprise that’s doomed to failure justifiably.

在缺乏希特勒本人所赞同的意识形态以及在《我的奋斗》和其他宣言和演讲中以可恨的细节描述的情况下，试图分析希特勒的行为或所谓的动机，是一项注定要失败的事业。

2:13:17 The notion that the mass murder of Jews, Poles, Slavs, and Gypsies was an event that simply happened as a result of unforeseen events, and that it was understood as somehow being humane, also runs contrary to the historical fact.

认为对犹太人、波兰人、斯拉夫人和吉普赛人的大规模屠杀只是由于不可预见的事件而发生的事件，并且被理解为某种程度上是人道的，这种观点也与历史事实背道而驰。

When Poland was invaded, the Nazis unleashed a killing wave in their so-called Operation Tannenberg, which sent in specially trained and ideologically pre-prepared killers who were given the name of the units of the Einsatzgruppen in order to wipe out the Polish leadership and also to kill Jews.

当波兰遭到入侵时，纳粹在所谓的“坦能堡行动”中发动了杀戮浪潮，派出了经过专门训练、在意识形态上有准备的杀手，这些杀手被赋予特别行动队的部队名称，以消灭波兰领导层并杀害犹太人。

2:14:03 This predates any of the Operation Barbarossa and the Nazi’s invasion of the Soviet Union.

这早于巴巴罗萨行动和纳粹入侵苏联。

The Nazis, moreover, in many different expressions of their ideology, had made clear that their plans, you can read this in Mein Kampf, for Eastern Europe, were subjugation and ethnic cleansing on a vast scale, so I consider both of these claims absolutely untenable, given the facts and documents.

此外，纳粹在其意识形态的许多不同表达中已经明确表示，他们对东欧的计划（你可以在《我的奋斗》中读到）是大规模的征服和种族清洗，因此，鉴于事实和文件，我认为这两种说法绝对站不住脚。

2:14:36 So do you think it was always the case that Nazi Germany was going to invade the Soviet Union?

那么你认为纳粹德国入侵苏联的情况总是如此吗？

I think, as you can read in Mein Kampf, this is what’s necessary in order to bring that racial utopia to pass.

我认为，正如你在《我的奋斗》中读到的那样，这是实现种族乌托邦所必需的。

2:14:41 And so, while the timetable might be flexible, while obviously geopolitical constellations would play a role in determining when such a thing might be possible, it was most definitely on his list.

因此，虽然时间表可能是灵活的，虽然地缘政治星座显然会在决定何时可能实现这样的事情方面发挥作用，但它绝对在他的清单上。

And I would want to add, that in my own scholarship I’ve worked to explore some of these themes a little bit further.

我想补充一点，在我自己的学术研究中，我一直致力于进一步探索其中一些主题。

My second book, which is entitled The German Myth of the East, which appeared with Oxford University Press, examines centuries in the German encounter with Eastern Europe and how Germans have thought about Eastern Europe, whether in positive ways or in negative ways.

我的第二本书题为《德国的东方神话》，由牛津大学出版社出版，探讨了几个世纪以来德国与东欧的遭遇以及德国人如何看待东欧，无论是积极的还是消极的。

2:15:36 And one thing that emerges from this investigation is that even before the Nazis come to power in Germany there are certainly negative and dehumanizing stereotypes about Eastern Europeans, some of them activated by the experiences of German occupation in some of these regions during the First World War.

这项调查发现的一件事是，即使在纳粹在德国掌权之前，对东欧人肯定也存在着负面和非人性的刻板印象，其中一些是由于第一次世界大战期间德国占领其中一些地区的经历而产生的。

But the Nazis take the very most destructive and most negative of all those stereotypes and make them the dominant ones, making no secret of their expected future of domination and annihilation in the East.

但纳粹却把所有这些成见中最具破坏性和最负面的成见变成了主导，毫不掩饰他们对东方统治和毁灭的预期。

The idea of Lebensraum, is it possible to implement that idea without Ukraine?

生存空间的想法，如果没有乌克兰，是否有可能实现这个想法？

Hitler has Ukraine in his horizon as one of the chief prizes.

希特勒将乌克兰作为他的主要战利品之一。

2:16:26 And the Nazis then craft extensive plans, a master plan that they work on in draft, after draft, after draft, even as the balance of the war is turning against them on the Eastern front.

然后，纳粹制定了广泛的计划，一个他们不断起草、起草、起草的总体计划，即使战争的天平在东部战线对他们不利。

This master plan is called the Generalplan Ost, meaning the general plan for the East.

这个总体规划被称为“Generalplan Ost”，意思是东部总体规划。

And it foresees things like mega highways on which the Germanic master race will travel to vacation in Crimea, or how their settlements will be scientifically distributed in the wide open spaces of Ukraine for agriculture that will feed an expanded and purified Germanic master race.

它还预见到诸如日耳曼优胜者将前往克里米亚度假的巨型高速公路，或者他们的定居点将如何科学地分布在乌克兰广阔的农业空间，以养活扩大和纯化的日耳曼优胜者。

So this was not peripheral to the Nazi ambitions, but central.

因此，这对于纳粹的野心来说并不是次要的，而是核心的。

As I best understand, there is extensive and definitive evidence that the Nazis always wanted to invade the Soviet Union and there was always a racial component, and not just about the Jews.

据我所知，有大量明确的证据表明纳粹一直想入侵苏联，而且总是有种族因素，而不仅仅是犹太人。

2:17:19 They wanted to enslave and exterminate the Jews, yes, but the Slavic people, the Slavs.

是的，他们想要奴役和消灭犹太人，但是斯拉夫人民，斯拉夫人。

And if he was successful at conquering the Soviet Union, I think the things that would be done to the Slavic people would make the Holocaust seem insignificant.

如果他成功征服了苏联，我认为对斯拉夫人民所做的事情将使大屠杀显得微不足道。

In my understanding in terms of the numbers and the brutality and the viciousness in which he characterized the Slavic people.

根据我的理解，他描述了斯拉夫人民的数量、残暴和恶毒。

In their worldview, the Jews were especially demonized.

在他们的世界观中，犹太人尤其被妖魔化。

2:18:13 And so, the project of the domination of Eastern Europe involves this horrific program of mechanized, systematized, bureaucratically organized, and horrifyingly efficient mass murder of the Jewish populations.

因此，统治东欧的计划涉及到这一可怕的计划，即对犹太人进行机械化、系统化、官僚组织和可怕高效的大规模屠杀。

What the Nazis expected for the Slavs had a longer timeline.

纳粹对斯拉夫人的期望有一个更长的时间表。

Himmler expected, the head of the SS.

希姆莱预计，党卫军头目。

The SS is given a special mission to be part of the transformation of these regions ethnically, and Himmler, in his role of envisioning this German future in Eastern Europe, gives such a chilling phrase.

党卫军肩负着特殊使命，要成为这些地区种族转型的一部分，希姆莱在展望德国在东欧的未来时，说出了这样一句令人不寒而栗的话。

He says that while certain Slavs will fall victim immediately, some proportion of Slavs will not be shipped out or deported or annihilated but instead they will remain as slaves for our culture.

他说，虽然某些斯拉夫人将立即成为受害者，但一定比例的斯拉夫人不会被运走、驱逐或消灭，相反，他们将继续作为我们文化的奴隶。

And in that one phrase, Himmler managed to defile and deface everything that the word culture had meant to generations of the best German thinkers and artists in the centuries before the Nazis.

在这句话中，希姆莱成功地玷污和玷污了纳粹之前几个世纪里文化这个词对于几代最优秀的德国思想家和艺术家的意义。

2:19:36 The notion of slaves for our culture was part of his longer term expectation.

我们文化中的奴隶概念是他长期期望的一部分。

And then, there’s finally a fact that speaks volumes about what the Nazis planned for the east.

然后，终于有一个事实充分说明了纳粹对东部的计划。

Hitler and Himmler envisioned permanent war on the Eastern Front, not a peace treaty, not a settlement, not a border, but a constant moving of the border, every generation, hundreds of miles east in order to keep winning more and more living space.

希特勒和希姆莱设想在东线进行永久战争，不是和平条约，不是解决方案，不是边界，而是边界不断移动，每一代人都向东移动数百英里，以不断赢得越来越多的生存空间。

And with analogy to other frontiers, to always give more fighting experience and more training and aggression to generation after generation of German soldiers.

与其他边疆类似，始终为一代又一代的德国士兵提供更多的战斗经验、更多的训练和侵略性。

In terms of nightmarish visions, this one’s right up there.

就噩梦般的幻象而言，这个就在那里。

And always repopulating the land conquered with the German, the Aryan race, so in terms of race, repopulating with race.

并且总是在被德国人征服的土地上重新繁衍，雅利安人种族，所以就种族而言，重新繁衍种族。

2:20:30 Enslaving the Slavic people and exterminating them.

奴役斯拉夫人并消灭他们。

Because there’s so many of them, it takes a long time to exterminate.

因为数量太多，需要很长时间才能消灭。

And even in the case of the Germans themselves, the hidden message behind even Nazi propaganda about unity and about German national identity was, the Nazis envisioned relentless purges of the German genetic stock as well.

即使就德国人本身而言，纳粹关于团结和德国民族认同的宣传背后隐藏的信息是，纳粹也设想对德国遗传资源进行无情的清除。

2:20:48 So among their victims are people with disabilities, people who are defined as not racially pure enough for the future, even though they are clearly Germans by identity.

因此，他们的受害者中有残疾人，他们被定义为未来种族不够纯洁的人，尽管他们的身份显然是德国人。

The full scale and the comprehensive ambitions of the Nazis are as breathtaking as they are horrifying.

纳粹的全面规模和全面野心既令人惊叹又令人恐惧。

One of the other things I saw Daryl tweet was that what ended up happening in the Second World War was the worst possible thing that could have happened, and I just also wanted to comment on that.

我在达里尔推特上看到的另一件事是，第二次世界大战中最终发生的事情是可能发生的最糟糕的事情，我也想对此发表评论。

2:21:35 Which I can imagine a very large number of possible scenarios that could have happened that are much, much worse, including the successful conquering of the Soviet Union.

我可以想象很多可能发生的情况，这些情况可能会更糟糕，包括成功征服苏联。

As we said, the kind of things that would be done, and the total war ever ongoing for generations, which would result in hundreds of millions of deaths and torture and enslavement, not to mention the other possible trajectory of the nuclear bomb.

正如我们所说，将会发生的事情，以及持续几代人的全面战争，将导致数亿人死亡、酷刑和奴役，更不用说核弹的其他可能轨迹了。

That’s right, that’s right.

没错，没错。

2:22:21 I would think that the Nazis with atomic weapons, with no compunctions about deploying them, would rank up there as even worse than the horrors that we saw.

我认为拥有原子武器的纳粹分子，毫不犹豫地部署它们，会比我们所看到的恐怖更糟糕。

Now, let me steel man a point that was also made as part of this, that the oversimplified narrative of sort of, to put it crudely, Hitler bad, Churchill good, has been used and abused by neocons and warmongers and the military industrial complex, in the years since, to basically say this particular leader is just like Hitler or maybe Hitler of the 1930s and we must invade now before he becomes the Hitler of the 1940s.

现在，让我钢铁侠指出一个观点，粗俗地说，希特勒是坏的，丘吉尔是好的，这种过于简单化的叙述已经被新保守派、战争贩子和军事工业联合体使用和滥用了，从根本上说，这位特定的领导人就像希特勒，或者可能是 1930 年代的希特勒，我们现在必须在他成为 1940 年代的希特勒之前入侵。

2:22:32 That has been applied in the Middle East, in Eastern Europe, and God forbid, that can be also applied in the war with China in the 21st century.

这已经应用于中东、东欧，但上帝保佑，这也可以应用于21世纪与中国的战争。

So yes, warmongers do sure love to use Hitler and apply that template to wage war.

所以，是的，战争贩子确实喜欢利用希特勒并应用该模板来发动战争。

We should be wary of that and be careful of that, both the over application of this historical template onto the modern world and of warmongers in general.

我们应该对此保持警惕，警惕这一历史模板在现代世界和一般战争贩子上的过度应用。

Yeah, and I think that nobody should like oversimplified narratives.

是的，我认为没有人应该喜欢过于简单化的叙述。

2:23:40 We need subtle and accurate narratives.

我们需要微妙而准确的叙述。

And also, I just would like to say that probably, as we’ve been talking about Stalin and Hitler, are singular figures.

而且，我只想说，正如我们一直在谈论斯大林和希特勒一样，他们可能是奇异的人物。

2:23:47 And just as we’ve been talking about the implementation of these totalitarian regimes, they are singular in human history, that we never saw anything like it and I hope, from everything it looks like, we’ll never see anything like it again.

正如我们一直在谈论这些极权主义政权的实施一样，它们在人类历史上是独一无二的，我们从未见过类似的事情，我希望，从它看起来的一切来看，我们永远不会再看到类似的事情。

I mean, there’s certainly striking and unique historical characters in the record.

我的意思是，记录中肯定有引人注目且独特的历史人物。

2:24:13 One of the things that’s so disturbing about Hannah Arendt’s model of totalitarianism is, the leader can be changed.

汉娜·阿伦特的极权主义模式最令人不安的事情之一是，领导人是可以改变的。

The system itself demands that there be a leader who allegedly is all-powerful and all-knowing and prophetic and the like, but whether particular figures are interchangeable in that role is a key question.

该体系本身要求有一个据称是全能、无所不知、具有预言性等的领导人，但特定人物是否可以互换这个角色是一个关键问题。

Let me go back to the 1920s and sort of ask another counterfactual question.

让我回到 20 年代，问另一个反事实的问题。

2:24:49 Given the battle between the Marxists and the Communists and National Socialists, was it possible and what would that world look like if the Communists indeed won in Germany as Karl Marx envisioned, and it made total sense given the industrialized expanse that Germany represented.

考虑到马克思主义者、共产党人和国家社会主义者之间的斗争，如果共产党确实如卡尔·马克思所设想的那样在德国获胜，这是否可能以及那个世界会是什么样子，考虑到德国所代表的工业化扩张，这是完全有道理的。

Was that possible and what would it look like if it happened?

这可能吗？如果发生的话会是什么样子？

I would think that the reality was probably very remote, but that was certainly their ambition.

我认为现实可能非常遥远，但这无疑是他们的野心。

2:25:22 German Communists get quoted as saying, “After Hitler, it’s our turn.” Their sentiment was that the arrival of Nazism on the scene was a sign of how decrepit and incompetent and doomed capitalism was.

德国共产党人曾说过：“希特勒之后，就轮到我们了。”他们的观点是，纳粹主义的到来标志着资本主义是多么衰弱、无能和注定要失败。

In hindsight, that’s almost impossible to believe because what happens is, the Nazis with their characteristic brutal ruthlessness, simply decapitate the party and arrest the activists who are supposed to be waiting to take over.

事后看来，这几乎令人难以置信，因为所发生的事情是，纳粹以其特有的残酷无情，简单地斩首该党并逮捕了本应等待接管的活动人士。

So that’s forestalled.

所以这已经被阻止了。

A further hypothetical that gets raised a lot is, couldn’t the social Democrats and the Communists have worked together to keep Hitler out of power?

另一个被广泛提出的假设是，社会民主党和共产党不能共同努力让希特勒下台吗？

2:26:23 That’s where the prior history comes into play.

这就是之前的历史发挥作用的地方。

The very fact that the German revolution in 1919 sees Socialists killing Socialists produces a dynamic that’s so negative that it’s nearly impossible to settle on cooperation, added to the fact that the Communists see the Social Democrats as rivals for the loyalty of the working class.

1919 年德国革命中社会主义者屠杀社会主义者，这一事实本身就产生了一种消极的动力，以至于几乎不可能达成合作，而共产党人则将社会民主党视为争夺工人阶级忠诚度的竞争对手。

In terms of just statistical likelihood, a lot of experts at the time felt surely the German army is going to step in, and the most likely outcome would have been a German general shutting down the democracy and producing a military dictatorship.

仅就统计可能性而言，当时的许多专家都认为德国军队肯定会介入，最有可能的结果是德国将军关闭民主并产生军事独裁。

It says a lot about how dreadful and bloody the record of the Nazis was, that some people in retrospect would have felt that that military dictatorship would’ve been preferable, if it had obviated the need for the ordeal under the Nazis.

它充分说明了纳粹的记录是多么可怕和血腥，有些人回想起来会觉得军事独裁会更好，如果它可以避免纳粹统治下的磨难。

What do you think Marx would say about the 20th century?

你认为马克思会对20世纪说什么？

2:27:42 Let’s take it before we get to Mao and China, just looking at the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.

在讨论毛泽东和中国之前，让我们先看看苏联和纳粹德国。

That’s a really good question.

这是一个非常好的问题。

2:27:58 I think that Marx was flexible in his expectations about tactics and strategies, even as he was sure that he had actually cracked a big intellectual problem of what the future’s going to look like.

我认为马克思对策略和战略的期望是灵活的，尽管他确信自己实际上已经解决了关于未来会是什么样子的一个重大智力问题。

So how it would play out, he was a man who had to deal with a lot of disappointments because in revolutionary uprising after revolutionary uprising, whether it was in the revolutions of 1848 across Europe, whether it was in Poland, whether it was in the Paris Commune, this is it.

那么事情会如何发展，他是一个不得不面对很多失望的人，因为在一次又一次的革命起义中，无论是1848年欧洲各地的革命，无论是在波兰，无论是在巴黎公社，就是这样。

This is the outbreak of the real thing, and then it doesn’t end up happening.

这是真实事情的爆发，然后它就不会结束了。

So I think that he’d probably have tried to be patient about the turn of events.

所以我认为他可能会尝试对事态的发展保持耐心。

2:28:55 We mentioned at the outset that Marx felt it was unlikely that a workers’ revolution would break out in the Russian Empire because for that you needed lots of industrial workers and they didn’t have a lot of industry.

我们一开始就提到，马克思认为俄罗斯帝国不太可能爆发工人革命，因为为此需要大量产业工人，而他们没有太多工业。

There’s a footnote to add there, and it proves his flexibility.

那里需要添加一个脚注，这证明了他的灵活性。

A Russian socialist wrote to Marx asking, “Might it not be possible for Russia to escape some stages of capitalist development?

一位俄罗斯社会主义者写信给马克思问道：“俄罗斯难道不可能摆脱资本主义发展的某些阶段吗？

I mean, do you have to rigidly follow that scheme?” And Marx’s answer was convoluted, but it wasn’t a no, and that suggests that Marx was willing to entertain all sorts of possible scenarios.

我的意思是，你必须严格遵守这个计划吗？”马克思的回答很复杂，但这并不是否定的，这表明马克思愿意考虑各种可能的情况。

I think he would certainly have been very surprised at the course of events as it unfolded because it didn’t match his expectations at the outset.

我想他肯定会对事情的发展感到非常惊讶，因为这与他一开始的预期不符。

Not to put this on him, but would he be okay with the price of [inaudible 02:30:02] for the utopian destination of communism?

不是要把这个强加给他，但他愿意接受[听不清 02:30:02] 共产主义乌托邦目的地的价格吗？

2:29:55 Meaning, is it okay to crack a few eggs to make an omelet?

意思是，可以打几个鸡蛋来做煎蛋卷吗？

Well, we don’t know what Marx would say if he were posed that question deliberately, but we do know in the case of a Marxist historian, Eric Hobsbawm, who was a prolific and celebrated British historian of the 19th and 20th centuries.

好吧，我们不知道如果有人故意向马克思提出这个问题，他会说什么，但我们确实知道马克思主义历史学家埃里克·霍布斯鲍姆的情况，他是 19 世纪和 20 世纪一位多产且著名的英国历史学家。

2:30:12 And he was put this question in the ’90s after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and he stated forthrightly that because the Soviet Union failed such sacrifices were inordinate.

他是在90年代苏联解体后被问到这个问题的，他直言不讳地说，因为苏联失败了，这样的牺牲是过分的。

But if the experiment had succeeded and a glorious future had been open for mankind as a result of the Soviet Union’s success, that would lead to a different reply.

但如果实验成功了，并且由于苏联的成功而为人类带来了光明的未来，那就会导致不同的答复。

And that is one person’s perspective.

这是一个人的观点。

So that takes us to the other side of the world.

这把我们带到了世界的另一边。

2:31:12 The side that’s often in the West, not considered very much when we talk about human history, Chinese dynasties, empires, are fascinating, complex, and there’s just a history that’s not as deeply explored as it should be.

当我们谈论人类历史、中国朝代、帝国时，西方经常忽视的一面是令人着迷的、复杂的，只是历史没有得到应有的深入探索。

And the same applies to the 20th century.

这同样适用于20世纪。

So Chinese radicals founded the Chinese Communist Party, CCP, in July 1921.

于是，中国激进分子于1921年7月创立了中国共产党。

Among them, as you talk about, was Mao.

正如你所说，其中包括毛泽东。

What was the story of Mao’s rise to power?

毛泽东上台的故事是怎样的？

So Mao takes a page from the book of Lenin by adapting or seeking to adapt Marx’s ideology to a context that would have surprised Marx significantly.

因此，毛泽东借鉴了列宁的著作，对马克思的意识形态进行了改编或寻求改编，以适应令马克思大吃一惊的背景。

2:31:53 And that is, not only to set the revolution in, an as yet, not industrialized country, but moreover to make the peasants, rather than being conservative sacks of potatoes, to make them into the prime movers of the success of this political venture.

也就是说，不仅要在一个尚未工业化的国家发动革命，还要让农民成为这场政治冒险成功的主要推动者，而不是成为保守的一袋土豆。

That’s a case of the phenomenon that we talked about earlier.

这就是我们之前讨论过的现象的一个例子。

When is an adaptation of an ideology or a change to an ideology a valid adjustment that you’ve made or adaptation?

什么时候对意识形态的适应或对意识形态的改变是你所做的有效调整或适应？

And when is it already so different that it’s something entirely distinct?

什么时候它已经如此不同以至于完全不同了？

Maoism was very clearly intended to answer this question for the Chinese context and, by implication, other non-Western parts of the world.

毛主义非常明确地旨在针对中国的背景以及世界其他非西方地区来回答这个问题。

This was, in part, Mao’s way, whose ambition was great, to put himself at the head of a successful international movement and to be the successor to Stalin, whose role he both admired and resented, from having to be the junior partner.

这在一定程度上是毛泽东的方式，他的野心很大，他要把自己置于一场成功的国际运动的领导地位，并成为斯大林的继任者，而他既钦佩又厌恶斯大林的角色，而不必成为初级合伙人。

To take an example of a masterwork and a major milestone in the history of Communism, the Polish philosopher, Leszek Kolakowski, who was at first a committed Communist and then later became disillusioned and wrote a three-volume study of Marxist thought, called Currents of Marxism.

以共产主义历史上的杰作和重要里程碑为例，波兰哲学家莱斯泽克·科拉科夫斯基（Leszek Kolakowski）最初是一名坚定的共产主义者，后来幻想破灭，写了一本关于马克思主义思想的三卷本研究报告，名为《马克思主义潮流》。

In that book, when he reaches Maoism, Kołakowski essentially throws up his hands and says, “It’s hardly you’d even know what to do with this,” because putting the peasantry in the vanguard role is something that is already at variance with the original design.

在那本书中，当科拉科夫斯基谈到毛主义时，他基本上举起双手说：“你几乎不知道该怎么办，”因为将农民置于先锋角色已经与最初的设计背道而驰了。

2:34:17 But Marx says this is an improved version.

但马克思说这是一个改进版本。

This is an adapted and truer version of Marxism for the Chinese context.

这是马克思主义适应中国国情的更真实的版本。

In case after case in Mao’s rise to power, we see a really complicated relationship with Stalin.

在毛泽东上台的一个又一个案例中，我们看到与斯大林的关系非常复杂。

He works hard to gain Stalin’s support because The Common Turn, the international organization headquartered in Moscow working to encourage and help revolutionaries worldwide, is skeptical about the Chinese Communists to begin with, and believes that China still has a long way to go before it’s reached the stage where it’s ripe for Communist revolution, and in a way that’s more orthodox Marxism than what Mao is championing.

他努力争取斯大林的支持，因为总部位于莫斯科、致力于鼓励和帮助全世界革命者的国际组织“共同转向”从一开始就对中国共产党持怀疑态度，并认为中国在达到共产主义革命成熟的阶段之前还有很长的路要走，在某种程度上比毛泽东所倡导的更正统的马克思主义。

2:35:00 Hey, that’s more orthodox Marxism than what Mao is championing.

嘿，这比毛泽东所倡导的更正统马克思主义。

Mao Chafes under Stalin’s acknowledged leadership of international communism as a movement.

毛泽东在斯大林的领导下承认了国际共产主义运动的领导地位。

And in 1950, when Mao goes to visit Stalin in Moscow, in order to sign a treaty of cooperation, he’s left waiting for days and days and days in a snub that is meant to show him that you’re just not as important as you might think you are.

1950 年，当毛泽东去莫斯科拜访斯大林以签署合作条约时，他冷落地等待了好几天，这是为了向他表明，你并不像你想象的那么重要。

And then when Stalin dies in 1953, Mao feels the moment is ready for him to step into the leadership position surpassing the Soviet Union.

1953 年斯大林去世后，毛泽东觉得他超越苏联登上领导地位的时刻已经准备好了。

So many of Mao’s actions like the Great Leap Forward and the agricultural disasters that follow from that are literally attempts to outdo Stalin, to outperform Stalin, to show that what Stalin was not able to do, the Chinese Communist regime will be able to bring off.

毛泽东的许多行动，比如大跃进，以及随之而来的农业灾难，实际上都是试图超越斯大林，超越斯大林，以表明斯大林做不到的事情，中共政权能够做到。

And the toll for that hubris is vast.

这种傲慢的代价是巨大的。

Yeah.

是的。

2:36:14 In the darkest of ways, he did outdo Stalin.

在最黑暗的方面，他确实超越了斯大林。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

2:36:17 In the statistics.

在统计中。

The Great Leap Forward ended up killing approximately 40 million people from starvation or murder.

大跃进最终导致约 4000 万人因饥饿或谋杀而死亡。

2:36:19 Can you describe the Great Leap Forward?

您能描述一下“大跃进”吗？

It was modeled on the crash industrialization that Stalin had wanted to undertake in the Soviet Union and to outdo it.

它是以斯大林想要在苏联实施并超越它的快速工业化为蓝本的。

2:36:30 The notion of the Great Leap Forward was that it would be possible for the peasant masses out of their conviction in the rightness of the Chinese Communist cause to industrialize China overnight.

大跃进的理念是，农民群众出于对中国共产主义事业正确性的信念，有可能在一夜之间实现中国的工业化。

That involved things like creating small smelting furnaces in individual farm communes.

这涉及到在各个农场公社建造小型冶炼炉之类的事情。

It involved folding together farming territories into vast communes of very large size that were, just because of their sheer gigantism, supposed to be by definition more efficient than small-scale farming.

它涉及将农业领地折叠成规模非常大的公社，仅仅因为它们的巨大性，从定义上来说，这些公社应该比小规模农业更有效率。

It ended up producing environmental disasters and campaigns to eliminate birds or insects.

它最终导致了环境灾难和消灭鸟类或昆虫的运动。

2:37:25 Were supposed to demonstrate mastery over nature by sheer acts of will.

我们应该通过纯粹的意志行为来展示对自然的掌控。

These included things like adopting Soviet agricultural techniques that were pioneered by a crackpot biologist by the name of Trofim Lysenko that produced more agricultural disaster that involved things like plowing to depths that were not practical for the seeds to germinate and grow but were supposed to produce super plants that would produce bumper harvests and outpace the capitalist countries and the Soviet Union.

其中包括采用由一位名叫特罗菲姆·李森科（Trofim Lysenko）的疯狂生物学家开创的苏联农业技术，这种技术造成了更多的农业灾难，其中包括犁地深度不适合种子发芽和生长，但本应生产出超级植物，从而获得丰收并超过资本主义国家和苏联。

So, the context for all of this is a race to get first to the achievement of full-scale communism.

因此，所有这一切的背景都是一场抢先实现全面共产主义的竞赛。

2:38:18 One of the themes that I think it’s so valuable to pursue and to take seriously in the history of communism is what concrete promises were made.

我认为在共产主义历史上值得追求和认真对待的主题之一就是做出了具体的承诺。

In the case of China, Mao made promises and projections for the future that were worrying even to some of his own assistants.

就中国而言，毛泽东对未来做出的承诺和预测甚至令他自己的一些助手感到担忧。

He exclaimed that perhaps by 1961, perhaps by 1973, China would be the winner in this competition and it would’ve achieved full communism so that which Marx had sketched as the endpoint of humanity would be achieved first by the Chinese.

他惊呼，也许到1961年，也许到1973年，中国将成为这场竞争的胜利者，并实现完全的共产主义，从而马克思所描绘的人类终点将由中国人首先实现。

Later, his own comrades, when he passed from the scene, felt the need to tamper that a little bit and promised that they would achieve full communism by the year 2000.

后来，当他离开现场时，他自己的同志们觉得有必要稍微修改一下，并承诺到2000年他们将实现全面的共产主义。

Such promises are helpful to a regime to create enthusiasm and to hold out to people, the prospect of real successes just around the corner.

这些承诺有助于政权激发热情，并向人们展示真正成功指日可待的前景。

But what happens when the date arrives and you haven’t actually achieved that goal?

但是，当日期到来而您实际上尚未实现该目标时会发生什么？

That’s one ticking time bomb that played a role in the increasing erosion of confidence in the Soviet Union and the case of China must have been something similar.

这是一颗定时炸弹，导致人们对苏联的信心日益削弱，中国的情况肯定也是类似的。

So there’s a lot of other elements that are similar to the Soviet Union.

所以还有很多其他的元素和苏联相似。

2:39:41 Maybe you could speak to the Hundred Flowers Campaign.

也许你可以谈谈百花运动。

The Hundred Flowers Campaign is a chance for Mao who has felt that he has lost prestige and lost standing in the party because of the disasters of the Great Leap Forward to regain some of that momentum.

对于毛泽东来说，百花运动是一个重新获得动力的机会，因为他感到自己因大跃进的灾难而失去了威望，失去了在党内的地位。

2:39:51 And the whole Hundred Flowers Campaign officially titled The Rectification Campaign to set things right is still shrouded in mystery.

而整场整风运动的正式名称仍然是神秘的。

Historians disagree about how to interpret what Mao was actually up to.

历史学家对于如何解释毛泽东的实际意图存在分歧。

The most cynical variant is that Mao encouraged Chinese thinkers and intellectuals to share ideas and to engage in constructive criticism, to propose alternatives, and to let a full discussion happen.

最愤世嫉俗的变体是，毛泽东鼓励中国思想家和知识分子分享想法，进行建设性批评，提出替代方案，并进行充分的讨论。

2:40:45 And then after some of them had ventured that to come in and purge them, to punish them ruthlessly for having done what he had invited them to do.

然后，在他们中的一些人冒险进来并清洗他们之后，残酷地惩罚他们，因为他们做了他邀请他们做的事情。

That is the most cynical variant.

这是最愤世嫉俗的变体。

Some historians argue that Mao himself was not prepared for the ideas that he himself had invited into the public square and that he grew anxious and worried and angry at this without having thought this through in a cynical way to begin with.

一些历史学家认为，毛泽东本人并没有准备好接受他自己邀请到公共领域的想法，他对此感到焦虑、担心和愤怒，而他一开始并没有以愤世嫉俗的方式思考这一点。

The end result is the same.

最终结果是一样的。

The end result is once again negative selection.

最终的结果再次是负选择。

The decimation of those who are most venturesome, those who are most talented and intelligent are punished relentlessly for that.

那些最有冒险精神的人、那些最有才华和最聪明的人因此而受到无情的惩罚。

And just a general culture of censorship and fear and all the same stuff we saw in the Soviet Union.

只是一种普遍的审查和恐惧文化以及我们在苏联看到的所有相同的东西。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

2:41:37 I mean, think of the impact on officials who are loyal servants of the regime and just want to get along.

我的意思是，想想这对那些忠于政权、只想和睦相处的官员的影响。

The message goes out loud and clear.

该信息大声而清晰地传达出来。

“Don’t be venturesome, do not propose reforms.

“不要冒险，不要提出改革。

Stick with the tried and true and that’ll be the safe route even if it ends in ultimately stagnation.”

坚持尝试过的、真实的做法，这将是安全的路线，即使它最终会陷入停滞。”

So, as the same question I asked about the Soviet Union, why do you think there was so much failure of policies that Mao implemented in China during his rule?

那么，正如我对苏联提出的同一问题一样，您认为为什么毛泽东统治期间在中国实施的政策有如此多的失败？

Mao himself had a view of human beings as being, as he put it, beautiful blank pieces of paper upon which one can write new characters.

毛泽东本人认为，用他的话说，人类是一张美丽的白纸，可以在上面书写新的文字。

2:42:07 And that is clearly at variance with what you and I know about the complex nature of human beings as we actually encounter them in the world.

这显然与你我在世界上实际遇到的人类复杂本质的了解不一致。

I think that in the process of hatching schemes that were one-size-fits-all for a country as big and as varied in its communities as China, inevitably, such an imposition of one model was going to lead to serious malfunctions.

我认为，在为中国这样一个幅员辽阔、社区多样化的国家制定一刀切的计划的过程中，强加一种模式不可避免地会导致严重的故障。

And so much of what other episodes in Chinese history had showed the entrepreneurial capacity, the productive capacity economically of the Chinese people was suppressed by being fitted into these rigid schemes.

中国历史上许多其他事件所显示的中国人民的创业能力、经济生产能力都因融入这些僵化的计划而受到抑制。

What we’ve seen since, after Mao passes from the scene and with the forms of Deng Xiaoping one sees just how much of those energies had been forcibly suppressed for so long and now we’re allowed to re-emerge.

从那时起，我们所看到的，在毛泽东去世后，随着邓小平的出现，人们看到了这些能量有多少被强行压制了这么久，现在我们被允许重新出现。

Mao died in 1976.

毛泽东于 1976 年去世。

2:43:21 You wrote that the CCP in ’81, looking back through the lens of historical analysis, said that he was 70% correct.

你写到81年的中共，从历史分析的角度来看，他说他是70%正确的。

Seven zero, exactly, 70% correct.

七个零，准确地说，正确率为 70%。

Yeah.

是的。

2:43:38 Not 69, not 71.

不是69，也不是71。

Not 71.

不是71。

2:43:42 The scientific precision, I mean we should say that again and again.

科学的精确性，我的意思是我们应该一遍又一遍地说。

The co-opting of the authority of science by the Soviet Union, by Mao, by Nazi Germany, Nazi Science is terrifying and should serve as a reminder that science is the thing that is one of the most beautiful creations of humanity but is also a thing that could be used by politicians and dictators to do horrific things.

苏联、毛泽东、纳粹德国、纳粹科学对科学权威的认可是可怕的，它应该提醒我们，科学是人类最美丽的创造之一，但也可以被政客和独裁者用来做可怕的事情。

And-

还有——

His essence is questing, not certainty.

他的本质是探索，而不是确定性。

Yeah.

是的。

Constant questing.

不断的追问。

Exactly.

确切地。

2:44:24 Humility, intellectual humility.

谦虚，知识分子的谦虚。

So how did China evolve after Mao’s death to today?

那么毛泽东去世后中国是如何演变到今天的呢？

Well, I think that there is…

嗯，我认为有……

2:44:36 Without denouncing Mao, without repudiating Mao’s 70% correctness, the regime actually undertook a new venture.

没有谴责毛泽东，没有否定毛泽东百分之七十的正确性，这个政权实际上进行了一次新的冒险。

And that venture was to open up economically to gain access to world markets and to play a global role always with the proviso that the party retained political supremacy.

这一冒险的目的是开放经济，进入世界市场并发挥全球作用，但前提是该党保持政治至高无上的地位。

It’s been pointed out that while Khrushchev tries in the Soviet Union in 1956, especially with a secret speech in which he denounces Stalin’s crimes, he tries to go back to the founders’ intentions of Lenin.

有人指出，赫鲁晓夫在1956年的苏联尝试，特别是在一次秘密讲话中谴责斯大林的罪行的同时，试图回到列宁的创始人的意图。

Nothing like that, it’s argued, is possible in the Chinese case because Mao was not the equivalent of Stalin for communist China.

有人认为，在中国的情况下不可能出现这样的情况，因为毛泽东并不相当于共产主义中国的斯大林。

Mao was the equivalent of Lenin.

毛泽东相当于列宁。

Mao was the founder.

毛泽东是创始人。

So there’s no repudiating of him.

所以没有人否认他。

They’re stuck with that formula of 70% and acknowledging that there were some problems, but by and large, arguing that it was the correct stance of the party and its leader that was paramount.

他们坚持70%的公式，承认存在一些问题，但总的来说，认为党及其领导人的正确立场才是最重要的。

2:45:56 And the results of this wager are where we are today.

这个赌注的结果就是我们今天的结果。

China has been transformed out of all recognition in terms of not all of the living standards of the country, but many places.

中国的生活水平已经面目全非，但不是整个国家的生活水平，而是很多地方的生活水平。

Its economic growth has been dramatic and the new dispensation is such that people will ask, “Is this a communist country anymore?” And that’s probably a question that haunts China’s current leadership as well.

它的经济增长非常惊人，新的体制使得人们会问：“这还是一个共产主义国家吗？”这可能也是困扰中国现任领导层的一个问题。

With Chairman Xi, we’ve seen a return to earlier patterns, Xi insisting that Mao’s achievement has to be held as equal to that of the reform period.

在习主席的领导下，我们看到了对早期模式的回归，习近平坚持认为毛泽东的成就必须与改革时期的成就同等。

Sometimes imitations or nostalgia for the Mao period or even the sufferings of the Cultural Revolution are part of this volatile mix.

有时，对毛泽东时代的模仿或怀旧，甚至文化大革命的苦难也是这种不稳定组合的一部分。

But all of this is outward appearance.

但这一切都是表面现象。

Statistics can also be misleading, and I think that very much in question is China’s further revolution in our own times.

统计数据也可能具有误导性，我认为最有问题的是中国在我们这个时代的进一步革命。

In the West, China is often demonized and we’ve talked extensively today about the atrocities that results from…

在西方，中国经常被妖魔化，我们今天广泛讨论了……造成的暴行。

2:47:11 Atrocities both internal and external that result from communist nations.

共产主义国家对内和对外的暴行。

2:47:33 But what can we say by way of hope to resist the demonization?

但我们能说些什么来表达希望来抵制妖魔化呢？

How can we avoid cold or hot war with China, we being the West or the United States in the 21st century?

作为21世纪的西方或美国，我们如何才能避免与中国发生冷战或热战？

Well, you mentioned in the context of the claims of science, humility as a crucial attribute.

嗯，你在科学主张的背景下提到，谦逊是一个重要的品质。

2:47:54 I think that humility, sobriety, realism are tremendously valuable in trying to understand another society, another form of government.

我认为谦逊、清醒、现实主义对于理解另一个社会、另一种形式的政府非常有价值。

And so, I think one needs to be very self-aware that projection onto others of what we think they’re about is no substitute for actual study of the sources that a society like that produces.

因此，我认为人们需要非常清醒地认识到，向他人投射我们对他们的看法并不能替代对这样一个社会所产生的来源的实际研究。

It’s declarations of what matters most to them, the leadership’s own pronouncements about what the future holds.

这是对他们最重要的事情的宣言，是领导层自己对未来的宣言。

I think that matters a lot more than pious hopes or versions of being convinced that inevitably everyone will come to resemble us in a better future.

我认为这比虔诚的希望或相信每个人在更美好的未来不可避免地会变得像我们一样重要得多。

You mentioned this earlier, but just to take a small detour, what are we supposed to think about North Korea and their declaration they’re supposedly a communist nation?

你之前提到过这一点，但只是绕个小弯路，我们应该如何看待朝鲜及其宣称的共产主义国家？

2:48:52 What can we say about the economic, the political system of North Korea?

关于朝鲜的经济和政治制度我们能说些什么？

Or is it just a hopelessly simple answer, “This is a complete disaster of a totalitarian state?”

或者只是一个无可救药的简单答案：“这是极权国家的一场彻头彻尾的灾难？”

I think the answer that our historian can give is a historical answer that we have to inquire into what has to happen in order to arrive at the past we are today.

我认为我们的历史学家可以给出的答案是一个历史答案，我们必须探究必须发生什么才能到达今天的过去。

2:49:21 Where you have a regime that’s claiming to be communist or has an even better version of Marx’s original ideas in the form of a Korean adaptation called Juche.

那里有一个自称是共产主义的政权，或者有一个更好版本的马克思原始思想，以韩国改编的形式，称为主体思想。

How does that mesh with the reality that we’re talking about a dynastic government and a monarchy in all but name, but a communist monarchy if that’s what it is?

这与我们所谈论的王朝政府和君主制名义上的君主制，但实际上是共产主义君主制的现实是如何吻合的呢？

I think that examining as much as we can learn about a closed society that goes about its every day in ways that are inscrutable to us is very, very challenging.

我认为，尽可能多地研究一个封闭的社会，这个社会每天都以我们难以理解的方式运作，这是非常非常具有挑战性的。

But the only answer when an example like this escapes your analytic categories, probably there’s a problem with your analytical categories rather than the example being the problem in all its messiness.

但是，当这样的示例脱离您的分析类别时，唯一的答案可能是您的分析类别存在问题，而不是示例本身就是问题所在。

Yeah.

是的。

2:50:29 So there’s a component here and it relates to China as well to bring somebody like John Mearsheimer into the picture.

因此，这里有一个组成部分，它也与中国有关，也需要让约翰·米尔斯海默这样的人参与进来。

There’s a military component here too, and that is ultimately how these nations interact, especially totalitarian nations interact with the rest of the world.

这里也有军事成分，这最终就是这些国家互动的方式，特别是极权国家与世界其他国家互动的方式。

Nations interact economically, culturally, and militarily.

各国在经济、文化和军事上相互作用。

And the concern with countries like North Korea is the way for them to be present on the world stage in the game of geopolitics is by flexing their military might and they invest a huge amount of their GDP into the military.

对朝鲜这样的国家的担忧是，他们在地缘政治游戏中出现在世界舞台上的方式是展示他们的军事力量，他们将大量的国内生产总值投入到军事上。

So I guess the question there to discuss in terms of analysis is how do we deal with this kind of system that claims to be a communist system and what lessons can we take from history and apply it to that?

所以我想，从分析角度来说，我们要讨论的问题是，我们如何对待这种自称是共产主义制度的制度，我们可以从历史中吸取什么教训并运用到其中？

Or should we simply just ignore and look the other way as we’ve been hoping it doesn’t get out of hand?

或者我们应该只是忽略并以其他方式看待，因为我们一直希望它不会失控？

Yeah.

是的。

2:51:42 There’s a realist’s see states following their own interests and prioritizing their own security, and there’s probably not much that could be done to change that.

现实主义者认为，各国会追随自己的利益并优先考虑自己的安全，而且可能没有什么办法可以改变这一点。

But conflict arising as a result of misunderstanding or mixed messages or misinterpretation, those are things that policymakers probably do have some control over.

但由于误解或混合信息或误解而引起的冲突，这些都是政策制定者可能确实可以控制的事情。

I think that there’s internal processes that’ll work their way out in even as opaque place as North Korea.

我认为即使在朝鲜这样不透明的地方，内部流程也能发挥作用。

It’s also the reality, just as we saw with the divided Germanys, that it’s a precarious kind of twinned existence when you have countries that are across the border from one another that are derived from what used to be a single unit that now are a real life social science experiment in, “What kind of regime do you get with one kind of system, what sort of regime you get with another kind of system?” And that’s a very unstable setup as it turns out.

这也是现实，正如我们在分裂的德国所看到的那样，当你有彼此跨越边界的国家时，这是一种不稳定的孪生存在，这些国家源自曾经是一个单一的单位，而现在是一个现实生活中的社会科学实验，“一种制度会产生什么样的政权，另一种制度会产生什么样的政权？”事实证明，这是一个非常不稳定的设置。

Now let us jump continents and in the 20th century look to North America.

现在让我们跨越各大洲，把目光投向 20 世纪的北美。

2:52:57 So you also have lectured about communism in America, the different communist movements in America.

所以你也讲授了美国的共产主义、美国不同的共产主义运动。

It was also founded in 1919 and evolved throughout through a couple of red scares.

它也成立于 1919 年，并经历了几次红色恐慌而不断发展。

So what was the evolution of the Communist Party and just in general communist in America?

那么美国共产党和一般共产主义的演变是怎样的呢？

It’s fascinating to observe this story because one longstanding commonplace had been that socialism has less purchase or radical socialism in the United States than in European countries.

观察这个故事很有趣，因为一个长期存在的常识是，社会主义在美国的购买力或激进的社会主义比在欧洲国家要少。

2:53:28 So, to the extent that that was true, it was an uphill battle for the communists to get established in the United States, but it makes it all the more interesting to follow the development of the movement.

因此，就事实而言，共产党人在美国站稳脚跟是一场艰苦的战斗，但这使得跟踪运动的发展变得更加有趣。

And there were two challenges in particular that played a role in shaping the American Communist experience.

有两个挑战在塑造美国共产主义经历方面发挥了特别重要的作用。

One was the fact that, to begin with, the party was often identified with immigrants.

其中一个事实是，首先，该党经常被认为是移民。

The communities that had come over across the Atlantic from Europe often had strong socialist contingents.

从欧洲跨越大西洋来到的社区往往拥有强大的社会主义队伍。

And when this break happens within the socialist movement between radical socialists and more moderate socialists, there were fiery individuals who saw the opportunity to help shape the American Communist movement.

当激进社会主义者和更温和的社会主义者之间的社会主义运动发生这种决裂时，一些热情的人看到了帮助塑造美国共产主义运动的机会。

But the result was that, for many American workers, they saw the sheer ethnic variety and difference of this movement as something that was unfamiliar.

但结果是，对于许多美国工人来说，他们认为这场运动的种族多样性和差异是陌生的。

2:54:58 It would only be with the rise to the leadership of the Communist Party of Earl Browder, a American-born political leader with vast ambitions for creating an American communist movement that that image would start to be modified.

只有随着厄尔·布劳德（Earl Browder）——一位出生于美国的政治领袖，雄心勃勃地创建美国共产主义运动——成为共产党的领导层，这种形象才会开始改变。

Earl Browder had a meteoric rise and then fall over the promise he made that went by the slogan Communism is 20th Century Americanism.

厄尔·布劳德 (Earl Browder) 的口号是“共产主义是 20 世纪的美国主义”，他的事业迅速崛起，但随后又因他所做出的承诺而衰落。

The notion was that communism could find roots in American political discourse and experience.

这个想法是共产主义可以在美国的政治话语和经验中找到根源。

Where Earl Browder fell a foul of other communists was in his expectations during World War II, that it might be possible for the Soviet Union and the United States to make their current cooperation permanent and to come to some sort of accommodation that would moderate their rivalry.

布劳德伯爵在第二次世界大战期间与其他共产党人发生冲突的地方，在他的预料之中，即苏联和美国有可能使他们目前的合作永久化，并达成某种和解，以缓和他们的竞争。

As it turns out, with the dawning already of Cold War tensions that would later flower more fully, that was unacceptable.

事实证明，冷战紧张局势已经开始，而且后来会更加全面，这是不可接受的。

And the movement divested itself of Earl Browder.

该运动剥夺了厄尔·布劳德的权力。

2:56:13 Another point that shaped American perceptions of the communist movement in the United States involved issues of espionage.

影响美国人对美国共产主义运动看法的另一点涉及间谍活动问题。

During the 1930s and the 1940s, American communists, not all of them obviously, but select members of the movement were called upon by Soviet intelligence to play a historical role by gathering information, winning sympathies…

在 1930 年代和 1940 年代，美国共产党人（显然不是全部，而是运动中的精选成员）被苏联情报部门号召，通过收集信息、赢得同情来发挥历史作用……

One of the most amazing books of the 20th century is the book written by Whitaker Chambers, who had served as a Soviet spy, first a committed communist, then a Soviet spy, and then later a renegade from those allegiances.

20 世纪最令人惊奇的书之一是惠特克·钱伯斯 (Whitaker Chambers) 写的书，他曾担任苏联间谍，首先是一名坚定的共产主义者，然后是一名苏联间谍，后来又背叛了这些忠诚。

His book is entitled Witness, published in 1952, and it’s one of the most compelling books you could ever read because it’s so full of both the unique character of the author in all of his idiosyncrasies and a sense of huge issues being at stake ones upon which the future of humanity turns.

他的书名为《见证》，出版于 1952 年，是你读过的最引人注目的书之一，因为它既充满了作者的独特性格和他所有的特质，又充满了人类未来所面临的重大问题的感觉。

So, talk about the ethical element being of importance there.

因此，谈谈道德因素在那里的重要性。

Through the apparatus of the state, the Soviets managed to infiltrate spies into America’s military as well as government institutions.

通过国家机器，苏联成功地将间谍渗透到美国军队和政府机构中。

One great irony is that when Senator McCarthy in the ’50s made vast claims about communist infiltration of the government apparatus, claims that he was unable to substantiate with details, that reality had actually been closer to the reality of the 1930s and the 1940s, than his own time.

一个巨大的讽刺是，当麦卡锡参议员在 50 年代大肆宣扬共产主义渗透政府机构时，并声称他无法用细节证实，这一现实实际上比他自己的时代更接近 1930 年代和 1940 年代的现实。

But the Association of American Communists with the foreign power of the Soviet Union and ultimately an adherence to its interests did a lot to undermine any kind of hearing for American communists.

但美国共产党人与苏联外国势力的联系以及最终对其利益的坚持在很大程度上破坏了美国共产党人的任何形式的听证会。

An example, of course, was the notorious Nazi-Soviet Pact in 1939.

当然，一个例子是 1939 年臭名昭著的纳粹苏联条约。

2:58:41 The American Communist Movement found itself forced to turn on a dime in its propaganda.

美国共产主义运动发现自己被迫在宣传上急转直下。

Before the Nazi-Soviet Pact of August 1939, they had denounced Nazi Germany as the greatest threat to world peace.

在 1939 年 8 月签订纳粹苏联条约之前，他们曾谴责纳粹德国是对世界和平的最大威胁。

Just after the signing of the pact, they had to proclaim that this was a great win for peace and for human harmony and to completely change their earlier relationship of being mortal enemies with Nazi Germany.

条约签署后，他们不得不宣称这是和平与人类和谐的伟大胜利，彻底改变了他们早先与纳粹德国的死敌关系。

There were many American communists who couldn’t stomach this and who in disillusionment simply quit their party memberships or drifted away.

许多美国共产党人无法忍受这一点，在幻灭中干脆退出党籍或渐行渐远。

But it’s a fascinating story of the ups and downs of a political movement with radical ambitions in American political history.

但这是一个引人入胜的故事，讲述了美国政治史上一场雄心勃勃的政治运动的起起落落。

Yeah, the Cold War and the extensive levels of espionage, combined with Hollywood created basically firmly solidified communism as the enemy of the American ideal sort of embodied.

是的，冷战和广泛的间谍活动，再加上好莱坞，创造了基本上牢固巩固的共产主义，作为美国理想的敌人的体现。

2:59:37 And not even the economic policies of the political policies of communism, but like the word and the color red with the hammer and sickle, Rocky IV, one of my favorite movies-

甚至不是共产主义政治政策的经济政策，而是像锤子和镰刀的红色这个词和颜色，洛基四世，我最喜欢的电影之一-

Well, that’s canonical, right?

嗯，这是规范的，对吧？

Yeah.

是的。

3:00:12 I mean, it is a bit of a meme, but meme becomes reality and then enters politics and is used by politicians to do all kinds of name-calling.

我的意思是，它有点像模因，但模因成为现实，然后进入政治，被政客用来进行各种谩骂。

You have spoken eloquently about modern Russia and modern Ukraine and modern Eastern Europe.

您雄辩地谈到了现代俄罗斯、现代乌克兰和现代东欧。

How did Russia evolve after Stalin and after the collapse of the Soviet Union?

斯大林之后和苏联解体之后，俄罗斯是如何演变的？

Well, I think the short answer is without a full historical reckoning that would’ve been healthy about the recent past in ways that’s not very surprising because given the economic misery of dislocations and the cumulative damage of all of those previous decades of this experiment, it left precious little patience or leisure or surplus for introspection.

好吧，我认为简短的答案是，如果没有一个完整的历史清算，这对最近的过去来说是健康的，这并不奇怪，因为考虑到混乱带来的经济苦难和这个实验前几十年的累积损害，它几乎没有留下宝贵的耐心、闲暇或剩余来进行反省。

3:00:46 But after an initial period of great interest in understanding the full measure of what Russia and other parts of the Soviet Union had undergone in this first initial explosion of journalism and of reporting and investigations, historical investigations with new sources, after an initial period marked by such interest, people instead retreated into the here and now and the today.

但是，在经历了最初的一段时期，人们对全面了解俄罗斯和苏联其他地区在新闻业、报道和调查以及新资料来源的历史调查的第一次爆发中所经历的一切产生了极大的兴趣，在经历了一段以这种兴趣为标志的最初时期之后，人们反而退回到此时此地和今天。

And the result is that there’s been less than would be healthy of a taking stock, a reckoning.

结果是，盘点、清算的效果并不理想。

Even in assigning of responsibility for those things that were experienced in the past, no Nuremberg trial took place in order to hold responsible those who had repressed others in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union.

即使在对过去经历过的事情进行责任分配时，也没有进行纽伦堡审判来追究那些在苏联解体后镇压他人的人的责任。

3:02:29 In other ex-communist countries, there was also precious little in the way of legal proceedings that would’ve established responsibility.

在其他前共产主义国家，也几乎没有什么法律程序可以确定责任。

And keep in mind, the Nuremberg trials had as one of their goals a very important one, as it turns out, not even individual verdicts for individual people found guilty, but to collect and publicize information, to create knowledge and transparency about what the reality had been in the past.

请记住，纽伦堡审判的目标之一是非常重要的，事实证明，甚至不是对被判有罪的个人进行个人判决，而是收集和公开信息，创造有关过去现实的知识和透明度。

In the case of the former Soviet Union, in the case of Russia today, instead of a clear-eyed recognition of the vast nature of what it all cost, Putin upon replacing Yeltsin was in a position to instead traffic in the most varied, eclectic, and often mutually contradictory historical memories or packages of memories.

就前苏联而言，就今天的俄罗斯而言，取代叶利钦的普京并没有清醒地认识到这一切所付出的巨大代价，而是能够贩卖最多样化、不拘一格且往往相互矛盾的历史记忆或记忆包。

3:03:31 So on the one hand, in Putin’s Russia, the Tsars are rehabilitated as heroes of Russian statehood.

因此，一方面，在普京领导下的俄罗斯，沙皇被恢复为俄罗斯国家的英雄。

Putin sees Lenin in a negative light because Lenin by producing federalism as a model for the Soviet Union, laid a time bomb at the base of that state that eventually smashed it into many constituent parts as nations regained their independence.

普京对列宁持负面看法，因为列宁将联邦制作为苏联的典范，在苏联的基础上埋下了一颗定时炸弹，最终在各国重新获得独立时将其粉碎成许多组成部分。

While Stalin, it’s acknowledged exacted a dreadful toll, but also was effective as a representative of Russian statehood.

众所周知，斯大林造成了可怕的伤亡，但作为俄罗斯国家地位的代表，它也发挥了作用。

3:04:14 This produced where we are today.

这造就了我们今天的处境。

It’s a commonplace echoed by many that Russia without Ukraine is a nation-state or could be a nation-state.

许多人都同意，没有乌克兰的俄罗斯是一个民族国家，或者可能是一个民族国家。

Russia with Ukraine has to be an empire.

俄罗斯和乌克兰必须成为一个帝国。

Putin, who is not really seeking a revival of Stalin’s rule, but still is nostalgic about earlier forms of greatness and of the strength of Russian statehood to the exclusion of other values has undertaken a course of aggression that has produced results quite different from what he likely expected.

普京并不是真正寻求复兴斯大林的统治，但仍然怀念早期的伟大形式和俄罗斯国家地位的力量，排除其他价值观，他采取了侵略方针，产生的结果与他可能预期的结果截然不同。

3:05:01 And I think that timing is crucial here.

我认为时机在这里至关重要。

It’s fascinating to try to imagine, “What if this attempt to re-digest Ukraine into an expanded Russian imperial territory had taken place earlier?” I think that the arrival on the scene of a new generation of Ukrainians has produced a very different dynamic and a disinclination for any kind of nostalgia for the past, packaged however it might be, and however nostalgic it might be made to appear.

尝试想象一下是很有趣的：“如果这种将乌克兰重新消化为扩大的俄罗斯帝国领土的尝试早点发生会怎样？”我认为，新一代乌克兰人的到来产生了一种截然不同的动力，并且不再对过去有任何怀旧之情，无论它如何包装，无论它看起来多么怀旧。

And there, I think that Putin’s expectations in the invasion of 2022 were entirely overturned.

在那里，我认为普京对 2022 年入侵的期望完全被推翻了。

His expectation was that Ukraine would be divided on this score and that some significant portion of Ukrainians would welcome-

他的预期是乌克兰会在这个问题上分裂，并且相当一部分乌克兰人会欢迎——

3:06:00 Some significant portion of Ukrainians would welcome the advance of Russian forces, and instead, there has been the most amazing and surprising heroic resistance that continues to this day.

相当一部分乌克兰人会欢迎俄罗斯军队的进军，但相反，最令人惊奇和令人惊讶的英勇抵抗一直持续到今天。

It’s interesting to consider timing and also individual leaders, Zelensky, you can imagine all kinds of other figures that would’ve folded much easier, and Zelensky, I think, surprised a lot of the world, this comedian, somehow becoming essentially an effective war president.

考虑时机和个人领导人是很有趣的，泽伦斯基，你可以想象各种其他人物，这些人物会更容易折叠，我认为泽伦斯基让世界上很多人感到惊讶，这位喜剧演员，以某种方式本质上成为了一位有效的战争总统。

3:06:15 So put that in the bin of singular figures that define history.

因此，请将其放入定义历史的单一数字的箱子中。

That surprises.

这令人惊讶。

How do you hope the war in Ukraine ends?

您希望乌克兰战争如何结束？

I’m very pessimistic on this score actually, and for the reasons we just talked about how these things escape human management or even rationality.

其实我对这一点非常悲观，原因就是我们刚才谈到这些东西是如何逃脱人类管理甚至理性的。

3:06:57 I think that war takes on a life of its own as accumulated suffering actually eliminates possible compromises or settlements that one might talk about in the abstract.

我认为战争有其自身的生命力，因为累积的痛苦实际上消除了人们可能抽象地谈论的可能的妥协或解决方案。

I think that it’s one thing for people far away to propose trades of territory or complicated guarantees or arrangements that sound very good in the abstract and that will just be refused by people who have actually experienced what the war has been like in person and what it has meant to them and their families and everyone they know in terms of lives destroyed.

我认为，对于远方的人们来说，提出领土交易或复杂的保证或安排是一回事，这些在抽象上听起来非常好，而那些真正亲身经历过战争的人以及战争对他们和他们的家人以及他们认识的每个人的生命被摧毁意味着什么的人只会拒绝这些。

I think that peacemaking is going to face a very daunting task here, given all that’s accumulated, and I think in particular, just from the last days of the launching of missile attacks against indiscriminate or civilian targets, that’s not easy to turn the corner on.

我认为，考虑到已经积累的一切，建立和平将面临一项非常艰巨的任务，特别是从最近几天对不分皂白的目标或平民目标发动导弹袭击以来，扭转局面并不容易。

Let me ask a political question.

让我问一个政治问题。

3:08:31 I recently talked to Donald Trump and he said if he’s elected before he has sworn into office, he’ll have a peace deal.

我最近与唐纳德·特朗普交谈，他说如果他在宣誓就职之前当选，他将达成和平协议。

What would a peace deal like that look like, and is it even possible, do you think?

您认为这样的和平协议会是什么样子？有可能吗？

So we should mention that Russia has captured four regions of Ukraine now.

所以值得一提的是，俄罗斯现在已经占领了乌克兰的四个地区。

Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson.

顿涅茨克、卢甘斯克、扎波罗热、赫尔松。

Also, Ukraine captured part of the Kursk region within Russia.

此外，乌克兰占领了俄罗斯境内库尔斯克地区的部分地区。

So just like you mentioned, territory is on the table.

所以就像你提到的，领土已经摆在桌面上。

NATO, European Union is on the table.

北约、欧盟都在谈判桌上。

Also funding and military help from the United States directly to Ukraine is on the table.

美国还可以直接向乌克兰提供资金和军事帮助。

Do you think it’s possible to have a fair deal that from people, like you said, far away where both people walk away, Zelensky and Putin, unhappy, but equally unhappy and peace is negotiated?

你认为有可能与人们达成公平协议吗？就像你说的那样，泽伦斯基和普京都离开了遥远的地方，他们不高兴，但同样不高兴，并且通过谈判达成和平？

Equally unhappy is a very hard balance to strike probably.

同样令人不满的是，可能很难达到平衡。

3:09:34 I think my concern is about the part of the equation that involves people just being desperately unhappy, laying the foundations for more trouble to come.

我认为我担心的是方程式中涉及人们极度不快乐的部分，这为更多麻烦的到来奠定了基础。

I couldn’t imagine what that looks like, but that’s, once again, these are things that escape human control in the details.

我无法想象那是什么样子，但是，再一次，这些都是在细节上逃脱人类控制的事情。

Laying the foundation for worse things to come.

为未来更糟糕的事情奠定基础。

3:10:00 So it’s possible you have a ceasefire that lays the foundation for a worse warrant and suffering in a year, in five years, in 10 years.

因此，停火可能会为一年、五年、十年后更糟糕的情况和痛苦奠定基础。

In a way, we may already be there because ratifying the use of force to change borders in Europe was a taboo since 1945 and now look where we are.

在某种程度上，我们可能已经做到了这一点，因为自 1945 年以来批准使用武力改变欧洲边界一直是禁忌，现在看看我们的处境。

3:10:17 If that is validated, then it sets up incentives for more of the same.

如果这一点得到验证，那么就会激励更多人采取同样的做法。

If you look at the 20th century is what we’ve been talking about with horrendous global wars that happened then, and you look at now, and it feels like just living in the moment, with the war in Ukraine breaking the contract of, you’re not supposed to do territorial conquest anymore in the 21st century that then the just intensity of hatred and military tension in the Middle East with the Israel, Iran, Palestine, just building and then China calmly, but with a big stick, talking about Taiwan.

如果你看看20世纪，就是我们一直在谈论的当时发生的可怕的全球战争，你看看现在，感觉就像活在当下，乌克兰战争打破了合同，你不应该在21世纪再进行领土征服，然后是中东与以色列、伊朗、巴勒斯坦的仇恨和军事紧张，只是平静地建设，然后中国用大棒，谈论台湾。

3:10:39 Do you think a big conflict may be on the way?

您认为一场大冲突可能即将发生吗？

Do you think it’s possible that another global war happens in the 21st century?

您认为21世纪有可能发生另一场全球战争吗？

I hope not, but I think so many predictions reach their expiration dates and get invalidated.

我希望不会，但我认为很多预测都已经到期并失效了。

3:11:40 Obviously, we’re confronting a dire situation in the present.

显然，我们目前面临着严峻的形势。

As a historian, let me ask you for advice.

作为一名历史学家，请教一下。

3:11:57 What advice would you give on interviewing world leaders, whether it’s people who are no longer here, some of the people we’ve been talking about, Hitler, Stalin, Mao or people that are still here, Putin, Zelensky, Trump, Kamala Harris, Netanyahu, Xi Jinping.

对于采访世界领导人，你有什么建议，无论是那些已经不在这里的人，我们一直在谈论的一些人，希特勒、斯大林、毛泽东，还是仍然在这里的人，普京、泽连斯基、特朗普、卡马拉·哈里斯、内塔尼亚胡、习近平。

As a historian, is it possible to have an interesting conversation, maybe as a thought experiment?

作为一名历史学家，是否有可能进行一次有趣的对话，也许作为一个思想实验？

What kind of conversation would you like to have with Hitler in the 1930s or Stalin in the 1920s?

您想与 1930 年代的希特勒或 1920 年代的斯大林进行什么样的对话？

First of all, I mean the answer’s very clear.

首先，我的意思是答案非常明确。

3:12:33 I would never presume to advise you about interviewing world leaders and prominent people because the roster that you’ve accumulated is just astonishing.

我绝不会冒昧地建议您采访世界领导人和知名人士，因为您积累的名册令人震惊。

But I know what I might aim for and that is, I think, in historical analysis, in trying to understand the role of a particular leader, the more one understands about their prior background and formative influences, the better a fix, I think, one gets on the question of what are their expectations?

但我知道我的目标是什么，我认为，在历史分析中，在试图理解某一特定领导人的角色时，人们对他们先前的背景和形成性影响了解得越多，我认为，人们对他们的期望是什么的问题就越好解决？

In German, there’s a beautiful word for this.

在德语中，有一个美丽的词来形容这一点。

Germans managed to mash together several words into one even better word, and in German, it’s Erwartungshorizont, the horizon of expectation.

德国人设法将几个单词组合成一个更好的单词，在德语中，它是 Erwartungshorizo​​nt，即期望的地平线。

So in the case of figures like Churchill or Hitler, their experience of World War I shaped their actions in World War II.

因此，对于丘吉尔或希特勒这样的人物来说，他们第一次世界大战的经历塑造了他们在第二次世界大战中的行动。

Their values were shaped in their childhood.

他们的价值观是在童年时期形成的。

Is there a way of engaging with someone you’re interviewing even obliquely that gives a view in on their sense of what the future might hold?

有没有一种方法可以与你正在采访的人进行互动，甚至间接地了解他们对未来的看法？

3:13:58 Obviously such people are expert at being guarded and not being pinned down, but the categories in which they’re thinking a sense of what their own ethical grounding might be or their ethical code that gives hints to their behavior.

显然，这些人擅长受到保护，而不是被束缚，但他们在思考自己的道德基础或道德准则的类别时，为他们的行为提供了暗示。

It gets said, and again, it’s a cliche because it’s true, that one of the best measures of a person, especially a leader, is how they treat people from whom they don’t expect anything.

有人说，这又是陈词滥调，因为确实，衡量一个人，尤其是领导者的最佳衡量标准之一，就是他们如何对待那些他们不抱任何期望的人。

Are they condescending?

他们是居高临下的吗？

Are they, on the contrary, fundamentally interested in another person, even if that person can’t help them or be used in some way?

相反，他们是否从根本上对另一个人感兴趣，即使这个人不能帮助他们或以某种方式被利用？

Speaking of prominent world leaders to interview, there’s Napoleon.

说到要采访的世界著名领导人，拿破仑就是其中之一。

3:14:45 Napoleon, psychologically, must have been a quite amazing person to make a bid for mastery of Europe and then already thinking about the mastery of the world.

从心理上讲，拿破仑一定是一个非常了不起的人，他既想统治欧洲，又考虑统治世界。

But contemporaries who met Napoleon said that it was very disturbing to talk with him because meeting with him one-on-one revealed that he could talk to you but look like he was looking right through you as if you were not fully real.

但与拿破仑会面的同时代人表示，与他交谈非常令人不安，因为与他一对一会面表明，他可以与你交谈，但看起来他正在看穿你，就好像你并不完全真实一样。

You were more in the nature of a character on a chessboard, and for that reason, some of them called Napoleon, the master of the sightless stare.

你更像是棋盘上的一个角色，因此，他们中的一些人称拿破仑为失明凝视大师。

So if you’re talking with a world leader and he or she has a sightless stare, that’s probably a bad sign.

因此，如果你正在与一位世界领导人交谈，而他或她目光失明，这可能是一个坏兆头。

But there might be other inadvertent clues or hints about the moral compass or the future expectations of a leader that emerge in one of your wonderful conversations.

但是，在你们的一次精彩对话中，可能会出现其他无意的线索或暗示，涉及道德指南针或领导者的未来期望。

You put it brilliantly in several ways, but the moral compass getting sneaking up to the full nuance and complexity of the moral compass, and one of the ways of doing that is looking at the various horizons in time about their vision of the future.

你从几个方面讲得很精彩，但是道德指南针正在悄悄地揭示道德指南针的全部细微差别和复杂性，而做到这一点的方法之一就是及时审视他们对未来的愿景的不同视野。

3:15:44 I imagine it’s possible to get Hitler to talk about the future of the Third Reich and to see in ways what he actually visions that as, and similar with Stalin.

我想，有可能让希特勒谈论第三帝国的未来，并以某种方式了解他的实际愿景，这与斯大林的情况类似。

But of course, funny enough, I believe those leaders would be easier to talk to because there’s nothing to be afraid of in terms of political competition.

但当然，有趣的是，我相信与这些领导人交谈会更容易，因为在政治竞争方面没有什么可怕的。

Modern leaders are a little bit more guarded because they have opposition often to contend with, and constituencies.

现代领导人更加谨慎，因为他们经常要面对反对派和选民。

You did a lot of amazing courses including for the great courses on the topic of communism.

您开设了许多精彩的课程，包括有关共产主义主题的精彩课程。

You just finished the third, so you did a series of lectures on the rise of communism, then communism and power, and then decline and fall…

你刚刚完成了第三个课程，所以你做了一系列关于共产主义崛起的讲座，然后是共产主义和权力，然后是衰落和衰落……

Decline of communism.

共产主义的衰落。

When I was listening to these lectures, can’t possibly imagine the amount of work that went into it.

当我听这些讲座时，无法想象其中的工作量。

3:17:02 Can you just speak wisely?

你能明智地说话吗？

What was that journey like of taking everything your expertise on Eastern Europe, but just bringing your lens, your wisdom, your focus onto this topic and what it takes to actually bring it to life?

将您在东欧的所有专业知识运用到这个主题上，并把您的镜头、您的智慧和您的注意力集中到这个主题上，以及如何将其真正变为现实，那段旅程是什么样的？

Journey is probably just the right word because it’s this week that the third of that trilogy, Decline of Communism, is being released.

“旅程”这个词可能恰到好处，因为三部曲的第三部《共产主义的衰落》正在本周上映。

3:17:30 It felt like something that I very much wanted to do because the history that’s narrated there is one that is so compelling and often so tragic that it needs to be shared.

这感觉就像是我非常想做的一件事，因为那里讲述的历史是如此引人注目，而且往往如此悲惨，以至于需要分享。

The vast amount of material that one can include is probably dwarfed by the amount that actually ends up on the cutting room floor.

一个人可以包含的大量材料可能与实际最终出现在剪辑室地板上的材料相比相形见绌。

One could probably do an entire lecture course on every single one of those lecture topics that got broached.

人们可能可以针对所提出的每一个讲座主题完成一整套讲座课程。

One of the great satisfactions of putting together a course like this is also being able to give further suggestions for study to the listeners and in some cases, to introduce them to neglected classics or books that make you want to grab somebody by the lapels and say, “You’ve got to read this.”

开设这样一门课程的最大满足感之一就是能够向听众提供进一步的学习建议，在某些情况下，向他们介绍被忽视的经典著作或书籍，这些书籍让你想抓住某人的衣领说：“你必须读这本书。”

3:18:36 There’s probably few things that are as exciting as a really keen and targeted reading recommendation.

可能没有什么比真正敏锐且有针对性的阅读推荐更令人兴奋的了。

In addition, I’ve also done other courses on the history of World War I, on the diplomatic history of Europe from 1500 to the present, a course on the history of Eastern Europe, and also a course on dictatorships called Utopia and Terror, and then also a course on Explorers and a course on turning points in modern history.

此外，我还上过一战史、1500年至今欧洲外交史、东欧史、乌托邦与恐怖等独裁课程，还有探险家课程和近代史转折点课程。

Every single one of those is so rewarding because you learn so much in the process and it’s really fantastic.

其中的每一个都是如此有益，因为你在这个过程中学到了很多东西，这真的很棒。

I should highly recommend that people sign up.

我强烈建议人们注册。

3:19:18 First of all, this is the great courses where you can buy the courses individually, but I recommend people sign up for great courses plus, which I think is like a monthly membership where you get access to all these courses and they’re just incredible.

首先，这是很棒的课程，你可以单独购买课程，但我建议人们注册很棒的课程，我认为这就像每月的会员资格，你可以访问所有这些课程，它们真是令人难以置信。

I recommend people watch all of yours.

我建议人们观看您的所有内容。

Since you mentioned books, this is an impossible question and I apologize ahead of time, but is there books you can recommend just in your own life that you’ve enjoyed, whether really small or some obvious recommendations that you recommend people read?

既然你提到了书籍，这是一个不可能的问题，我提前道歉，但是你可以在你自己的生活中推荐你喜欢的书吗，无论是很小的书还是你建议人们阅读的一些明显的建议？

It is a bit like asking what’s your favorite band kind of thing.

这有点像问你最喜欢的乐队是什么。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

3:20:03 Would a book that got turned into a movie be acceptable as well?

一本书改编成电影也可以接受吗？

Yes.

是的。

In that case, all of us reflect on our own childhoods and that magical moment of a reading a book or seeing a movie that really got you launched on some particular set of things that you’re going to find fascinating for the rest of your life.

在这种情况下，我们所有人都会反思自己的童年，以及读一本书或看一部电影的神奇时刻，这些时刻确实让你开始从事一些特定的事情，而这些事情会让你在余生中感到着迷。

3:20:11 There’s a direct line to the topics we were talking about today from myself in the Chicagoland area as a kid, seeing the film of Dr. Zhivago and then later reading the novel on which it was based by Pasternak.

这与我们今天讨论的主题有直接的联系，我小时候在芝加哥地区看过《日瓦戈医生》的电影，后来读了帕斯捷尔纳克根据该小说改编的小说。

Even though the film had to be filmed on location in Spain pretending to be revolutionary Russia, it was magical for the sheer sweep and tragedy and human resilience that it showed the very way in which a work of literature or a cinematography could capture so much.

尽管这部电影必须在西班牙拍摄，假装是革命的俄罗斯，但它的纯粹的扫荡、悲剧和人类的韧性是神奇的，它展示了文学作品或电影摄影可以捕捉如此多的东西的方式。

3:21:09 I’m still amazed by that.

我仍然对此感到惊讶。

There’s also, in the spirit of recommending neglected classics, my favorite author, is now a late Canadian author by the name of Robertson Davies, who wrote novel after novel in a mode that probably would get called magical realism but is so much more.

本着推荐被忽视的经典的精神，我最喜欢的作家现在是一位已故的加拿大作家，名叫罗伯逊·戴维斯，他以一种可能被称为魔幻现实主义的模式写了一部又一部小说，但又远不止于此。

Robertson Davies was heavily influenced by Carl Jung and Jungian philosophy, but in literary form, he managed to create stories that blend the mythical, the mystical, and the brutally real to paint a picture of Canada as he knew it, Europe as he knew it, and the world as he knew it.

罗伯逊·戴维斯深受卡尔·荣格和荣格哲学的影响，但在文学形式上，他成功地创作了融合神话、神秘和残酷现实的故事，描绘了他所知道的加拿大、他所知道的欧洲和他所知道的世界的图景。

He’s most famous probably for the Deptford Trilogy, three novels in a series that are linked and they’re just masterful if only there were more books like that.

他最著名的可能是《德特福德三部曲》，这是一个系列中的三部相互联系的小说，如果有更多这样的书就好了。

The Deptford Trilogy, Fifth Business, the Manticore, World of Wonders, and you got a really nice beard.

《德特福德三部曲》、《第五商业》、《蝎狮》、《奇迹世界》，还有你的胡子真漂亮。

Yes, it was an amazing beard, very 19th century.

是的，那是一种令人惊叹的胡须，非常具有 19 世纪的风格。

Beautiful.

美丽的。

3:22:36 What advice would you give to young people today that have just listened to us talk about the 20th century and the terrifying prospects of ideals implemented into reality?

对于今天刚刚听我们谈论 20 世纪以及将理想变为现实的可怕前景的年轻人，您有什么建议？

By the way, many of the revolutions are carried out by young people, and so the good and the bad and the ugly is thanks to the young people.

顺便说一句，许多革命是由年轻人进行的，所以好的、坏的、丑陋的都是年轻人的功劳。

So the young people listening today, what advice would you give them?

那么今天聆听的年轻人，您会给他们什么建议？

It comes down to one word, and that one word is read.

归根结底就是一个词，这个词就被读了。

3:23:07 As a college teacher, I’m concerned about what I’m seeing unfolding before us, not my classes, but classes in which students are asked to read very little or maybe in some cases not at all, or snippets that they are provided digitally.

作为一名大学教师，我担心的是我所看到的，不是我的课堂，而是要求学生阅读很少或在某些情况下根本不阅读的课堂，或者他们以数字方式提供的片段。

Those have their place and can be valuable, but the task of sitting down with a book and absorbing its message, not agreeing with it necessarily, but taking in the implications, learning how to think within the categories and the values of the author is going to be irreplaceable, and my anxiety is that with college bookstores now moving entirely to the paperless format, it changes how people interact with texts.

这些都有自己的位置，也可能很有价值，但是坐下来阅读一本书并吸收其中的信息的任务，不一定同意它，而是吸收其中的含义，学习如何在作者的类别和价值观内思考，这将是不可替代的，我的焦虑是，随着大学书店现在完全转向无纸化格式，它改变了人们与文本互动的方式。

3:24:12 If the result is not a renaissance and a resurgence of reading, but less reading, that will be dreadful because the experience of thinking your way into other people’s minds that sustained reading offers is so crucial to human empathy, a broadening of your own sensibilities of what’s possible, what’s in the full range of being human, and then what are the best models for what has been thought and felt and how people have acted, otherwise, we fall prey to manipulators and the ability of artificial intelligence to give us versions of realities that never existed and never will, and like.

如果结果不是阅读的复兴和复兴，而是减少阅读，那将是可怕的，因为持续阅读所提供的思考进入他人思想的体验对于人类的同理心至关重要，拓宽你自己对可能性的敏感性，人类的全部范围，然后什么是思考和感受以及人们如何行动的最佳模型，否则，我们就会成为操纵者和行为的牺牲品。人工智能有能力为我们提供从未存在过、也永远不会存在的现实版本，等等。

It’s a really interesting idea.

这是一个非常有趣的想法。

3:25:00 So let me give a shout-out to Perplexity that I’m using here to summarize and take quick notes and get little snippets of stuff, which is extremely useful.

因此，让我对 Perplexity 表示赞扬，我在这里使用它来总结、快速做笔记并获取一些小片段，这非常有用。

But books are not just about information transfer, just as you said, it’s a journey together with a set of ideas and it’s a conversation, and getting a summary of the book is the cliche thing is it’s really getting to the destination without the journey.

但书不仅仅是信息传递，就像你说的，它是一个带有一系列想法的旅程，它是一种对话，而获得书的摘要是陈词滥调，它实际上是在没有旅程的情况下到达目的地。

The journey is the thing that’s important, thinking through stuff.

旅程是最重要的，思考事物。

3:25:35 I’ve been surprised, I’ve learned, I’ve trained my brain to be able to get the same thing from audiobooks.

我很惊讶，我了解到，我训练我的大脑能够从有声读物中得到同样的东西。

Also, it’s a little bit more difficult because you don’t control the pacing.

另外，这有点困难，因为你无法控制节奏。

Sometimes pausing is nice, but you could still get it from audiobooks.

有时暂停是件好事，但您仍然可以从有声读物中获得它。

So it’s an audio version of books and that allows you to also go on a journey together and sometimes more convenient.

所以它是书籍的音频版本，可以让你们一起去旅行，有时甚至更方便。

You could take it to more places with you, but there is a magical thing.

你可以带着它去更多的地方，但有一个神奇的事情。

I also trying to train myself mostly to use Kindle, the digital version of books, but there is, unfortunately, still a magical thing about being there with the page.

我还尝试训练自己主要使用 Kindle（书籍的数字版本），但不幸的是，在页面上仍然有一种神奇的感觉。

Audiobooks are definitely not to be scorned because as people have pointed out, the original traditions of literature were oral.

有声读物绝对不应该被蔑视，因为正如人们所指出的，文学的原始传统是口头的。

3:26:14 So that’s actually the 1.0 version, and combining these things is probably the key.

所以这实际上是 1.0 版本，将这些东西结合起来可能是关键。

I think one of the things I find so wonderful about the best lectures that I’ve heard is it’s a chance to hear someone thinking out loud, not laying down the law, but taking you through a series of logical moves, imaginative leaps, alternative suggestions, and that’s much more than data transfer.

我认为我听过的最好的讲座的美妙之处在于，它让我有机会听到有人大声思考，而不是制定法律，而是带你经历一系列逻辑动作、想象力的飞跃、替代建议，而这不仅仅是数据传输。

The use case of AI as a companion as you read is really exciting to me.

当你阅读时，人工智能作为伴侣的用例对我来说真的很令人兴奋。

3:26:57 I’ve been using it recently to basically, as you read, you can have a conversation with a system that has access to a lot of things about a particular paragraph.

我最近一直在使用它，基本上，当你阅读时，你可以与一个可以访问有关特定段落的很多信息的系统进行对话。

I’ve been really surprised how my brain, when given some extra ideas, other recommendations of books, but also just a summary of other ideas from elsewhere in the universe that relates to this paragraph.

我真的很惊讶我的大脑，当给予一些额外的想法、其他书籍推荐，而且只是来自宇宙其他地方与本段相关的其他想法的总结时。

It sparks your imagination and thought, and you see the actual richness in the thing you’re reading.

它激发你的想象力和思想，你会看到你正在阅读的内容的真正丰富性。

3:27:35 Now, nobody, to my knowledge, has implemented a really intuitive interaction between AI and the text, unfortunately, partially because the books are protected under DRM, and so there’s a wall where the AI can’t access the thing.

现在，据我所知，没有人在人工智能和文本之间实现真正直观的交互，不幸的是，部分原因是这些书籍受到 DRM 保护，因此存在人工智能无法访问该内容的墙。

So if you want to play with that kind of thing, you have to break the law a little bit, which is not a good thing.

所以想要玩那种东西，就得稍微违法一下，这可不是什么好事。

But just like with music, Napster came up, people started illegally sharing music, and the answer to that was Spotify, which made the sharing of music revolutionized everything and made the sharing of music much easier.

但就像音乐一样，Napster 出现了，人们开始非法分享音乐，而答案就是 Spotify，它让音乐分享彻底改变了一切，让音乐分享变得更加容易。

So there is some technological things that can enrich the experience of reading, but the actual painful, long process of reading is really useful.

所以有一些技术性的东西可以丰富阅读的体验，但是实际痛苦的、漫长的阅读过程确实很有用。

Just like boredom is useful.

就像无聊是有用的一样。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

It’s also called just sitting there.

也称为只是坐在那里。

Underrated Virtue.

被低估的美德。

Of course, you have to see the smartphone as an enemy, I would say, of that special time.

当然，我想说，你必须将智能手机视为那个特殊时期的敌人。

3:28:36 You have to think because social media companies are maximized to get your engagement.

你必须思考，因为社交媒体公司会最大限度地吸引你的参与。

They want to grab your attention, and they grab that attention by making you as braindead as possible and getting you to look at more and more and more things.

他们想要吸引你的注意力，他们通过让你尽可能地脑死亡并让你看越来越多的东西来吸引注意力。

So it’s nice and fun and it’s great.

所以这很好、很有趣，而且很棒。

Recommend it highly.

强烈推荐它。

It’s good for dopamine rush, but see it as a counter force to the process of sitting with an idea for a prolonged period of time, taking a journey through an expert eloquently conveying that idea and growing by having a conversation with that idea and a book is really, really powerful.

这对多巴胺激增有好处，但将其视为长时间坐着思考一个想法的过程的反作用力，通过专家雄辩地传达该想法进行旅程，并通过与该想法和一本书的对话来成长，这真的非常非常强大。

So I agree with you totally.

所以我完全同意你的观点。

What gives you hope about the future of humanity?

是什么让你对人类的未来充满希望？

We’ve talked about the dark past, what gives you hope for the light at the end of the tunnel?

我们已经谈论了黑暗的过去，是什么让你对隧道尽头的光明抱有希望？

We talked indeed about a lot of latent, really damaging and negative energies that are part of human nature.

我们确实讨论了许多潜在的、真正具有破坏性的负面能量，它们是人性的一部分。

3:29:42 But I find hope in another aspect of human nature, and that is the sheer variety of human reactions to situations.

但我在人性的另一个方面找到了希望，那就是人类对情况的反应多种多样。

The very fact that history is full of so many stories of amazing endurance, amazing resilience, the will to build up even after the horrors have passed, this, to me, is an inexhaustible source of optimism.

事实上，历史上充满了如此多的故事，这些故事具有惊人的耐力、惊人的韧性，甚至在恐怖过去之后仍能增强意志，这对我来说是乐观的不竭源泉。

There are some people who condemn cultural appropriation and say that borrowing from one culture to another is to be condemned or the problem is a synonym for cultural appropriation is world history.

有些人谴责文化挪用，并说从一种文化借用另一种文化是应该受到谴责的，或者问题是文化挪用的同义词是世界历史。

Trade, transfer of ideas, influences.

贸易、思想转移、影响。

Valuing that which is unlike your own culture is also a form of appropriation, quite literally, and so that multitude of human reactions and the fact that our experiences so unlimited as history testifies, gives me great hope for the future.

从字面上看，重视与自己文化不同的事物也是一种挪用形式，因此人类的众多反应以及我们的经验如此无限的事实（正如历史所证明的那样）给了我对未来的巨大希望。

The willingness of humans to explore all of that with curiosity.

人类愿意带着好奇心探索这一切。

3:31:03 Even when the empires fall and the dreams are broken, we rise again.

即使帝国崩溃、梦想破灭，我们也会再次崛起。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

3:31:13 Unceasingly.

不断。

Vejas, thank you so much for your incredible work, your incredible lectures, your books, and thank you for talking today.

Vejas，非常感谢您出色的工作、出色的讲座、您的书籍，也感谢您今天的发言。

Thank you for this such a fun chat.

感谢您给我们带来如此有趣的聊天。

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Vejas Liulevicius.

感谢您收听与 Vejas Liulevicius 的对话。

3:31:25 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

为了支持这个播客，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

Now let me leave you with some words from Karl Marx.

现在让我向你们介绍卡尔·马克思的一些话。

“History repeats itself; first as a tragedy, second as a farce.” Thank you for listening.

“历史会重演；第一次是悲剧，第二次是闹剧。”感谢您的聆听。

I hope to see you next time.

我希望下次能见到你。