ThePrimeagen：编程、AI、ADHD、效率、成瘾与上帝

The following is a conversation with Michael Paulson, better known online as ThePrimeagen.

以下是与迈克尔·保尔森 (Michael Paulson) 的对话，迈克尔·保尔森在网上更为人所知的名字是 ThePrimeagen。

00:00 He is a programmer who has entertained and inspired millions of people to have fun building stuff with software, whether you’re a newbie or a seasoned developer who has been battling it out in the software engineering trenches for decades.

他是一位程序员，他娱乐并激励了数百万人享受用软件构建东西的乐趣，无论您是新手还是在软件工程领域奋斗了数十年的经验丰富的开发人员。

In short, ThePrimeagen is a legendary programmer and a great human being with an inspiring roller coaster of a life story.

简而言之，ThePrimeagen 是一位传奇的程序员，也是一位伟大的人，有着鼓舞人心的过山车般的人生故事。

This is the Lex Fridman Podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

为了支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

And now, dear friends, here’s ThePrimeagen.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这里是 ThePrimeagen。

00:42 What do you love most about programming?

编程中你最喜欢什么？

What brings you joy when you program?

编程时什么给你带来快乐？

I can tell you the first time that I ever felt love in programming, or felt that joy or that excitement-

我可以告诉你，我第一次在编程中感受到了爱，或者感受到了那种快乐或兴奋——

Sure.

当然。

Which was in college.

那是在大学里。

00:52 It was the second class, data structures, and the teacher that was teaching Ray Babcock, he was talking about linked lists.

这是第二节课，数据结构，老师正在教Ray Babcock，他正在讲链表。

Now you have to learn Java at Montana State University when I went, and so he’s off there explaining this whole linked list thing and all that, and then he shows code.

现在，当我去蒙大拿州立大学时，你必须学习 Java，所以他在那里解释了整个链表的事情以及所有这些，然后他展示了代码。

And in the code it’s abstract class node or whatever it was, I can’t remember what it was.

在代码中它是抽象类节点或其他什么，我不记得它是什么了。

And then it had a private member, and that private member was of type node, and I’ve never seen that before.

然后它有一个私有成员，该私有成员是节点类型，我以前从未见过。

It is a class that is called node with a member that is of itself.

它是一个称为节点的类，具有其自身的成员。

And for the first time ever I was like, “Oh my gosh.

我第一次这样想：“天哪。

There’s no end.

没有尽头。

There’s no way to iterate.

没有办法迭代。

This is not a set of 10 items.

这不是一套 10 件商品。

This is a set of infinite items.” And so my mind kind of exploded in that moment, like, “What you can express is huge.

这是一组无限的物品。”所以那一刻我的思想爆炸了，就像，“你能表达的东西是巨大的。

I can see what memory looks like.

我可以看到记忆是什么样子。

I can see this hopping through space.”

我可以看到它在太空中跳跃。”

01:47 And I just remember being just so blown away, because up until that point, everything was just, “All right, I have a list of 10 items.

我只记得当时我非常震惊，因为在那之前，一切都只是，“好吧，我有一个包含 10 项的清单。

I have a list of 20 items.” Right?

我有一份 20 项的清单。”正确的？

It was very rigid and small, and the things I built were really small and trivial, and all of a sudden I felt like I could build anything in that one moment.

它非常僵化和小，我建造的东西真的又小又琐碎，突然间我觉得我可以在那一刻建造任何东西。

And it was so amazing.

真是太神奇了。

I just remember sitting in class for, I don’t even remember how long those classes were or anything, but I just remember being just completely profoundly impacted by this notion.

我只记得坐在课堂上，我什至不记得这些课持续了多长时间或其他什么，但我只记得我完全受到这个概念的深刻影响。

And so I just sat there and I watched, and I had the exact same experience in heaven’s forbid by a software engineering class, when we talked about the decorator pattern, where you can keep on constructing these objects in this recursive way.

所以我只是坐在那里看着，当我们谈论装饰器模式时，我在软件工程课程中获得了完全相同的经历，在天堂禁止的情况下，你可以继续以这种递归方式构造这些对象。

Not that I think that’s actually a good idea to do, but just watching that and realizing there’s so many weird and unique ways you can solve problems, and anything your mind can think of, you can just create that.

我并不认为这实际上是一个好主意，但只要观察这一点，就会意识到有很多奇怪而独特的方法可以解决问题，任何你能想到的东西，你都可以创造出来。

And I just remember getting just so excited about the possibility that anything is possible.

我只记得我对一切皆有可能感到非常兴奋。

Yeah, let’s wax philosophical about a linked list.

是的，让我们对链表进行哲学思考。

02:41 It is pretty profound.

这是相当深刻的。

For people who don’t know, a node in a linked list doesn’t know anything about the world it’s in.

对于不知道的人来说，链表中的节点对其所在的世界一无所知。

It only knows about the thing it’s linked to, its neighbor.

它只知道与其相连的事物，即它的邻居。

Maybe that’s symbolic.

也许这是象征性的。

It’s a metaphor for all of us humans.

这是我们所有人的隐喻。

There’s billions of us on this planet and we only know about our local little network.

这个星球上有数十亿人，但我们只了解我们当地的小网络。

Yeah.

是的。

And it’s kind of beautiful.

这很漂亮。

03:05 And you realize in that little simple data structure, you can construct arbitrarily large systems, and they’re like roots that go through memory.

你意识到，在这个简单的小数据结构中，你可以构建任意大的系统，它们就像穿过内存的根。

And then of course, that’s where you get all the programming languages that allow you to dump junk into memory and have memory leaks, and therefore create infinite pain as you try to figure out where that unfreed memory is.

当然，这就是您获得所有允许将垃圾转储到内存中并存在内存泄漏的编程语言的地方，因此当您试图找出未释放的内存在哪里时会产生无限的痛苦。

For me, yeah, probably…

对我来说，是的，可能……

It’s so beautiful the way you put that.

你这样说真是太美了。

Linked lists are indeed beautiful.

链表确实很漂亮。

Recursion also for me, when I finally wrapped my brain around what it means to write a recursive function.

当我最终明白编写递归函数的含义时，递归对我来说也是如此。

What was the thing?

到底是怎么回事？

03:49 What was one that taught you?

那个人教了你什么？

Because I think we all…

因为我认为我们都...

You probably did factorial, where you just do a quick factorial of it.

您可能进行了阶乘，只需对其进行快速阶乘。

It just doesn’t hit home.

它只是没有击中要害。

What was the thing that made it hit home?

是什么让它击中要害？

I don’t remember the first.

我不记得第一个了。

I remember my first.

我记得我的第一次。

04:05 How do you not remember your first?

你怎么不记得你的第一次？

It was magic.

这太神奇了。

I’ve had so many that it just…

我已经有太多了，只是……

I mean, you are a Lisp guy.

我的意思是，你是一个 Lisp 人。

04:11 You’re probably pretty used to the recursion.

您可能非常习惯递归。

Yeah, all I remember is just surrounded by sea of parentheses.

是的，我所记得的只是被括号海洋包围。

04:14 I mean that’s really, probably, when I…

我的意思是，这真的很可能是当我……

In high school, I think it was either Java or C++.

高中的时候，我认为要么是Java，要么是C++。

Wow, how do I not remember that?

哇，我怎么不记得了？

It must have been C++.

一定是C++。

And then college, the generic bullshit software engineering classes were Java, but then the renegades, the cool kids, were all using Lisp.

然后到了大学，通用的废话软件工程课程是 Java，但后来的叛逆者、酷孩子都在使用 Lisp。

That’s when you’re doing the AI, the quote-unquote “AI” at that time, that that was Lisp.

那就是当你在做人工智能的时候，当时的“人工智能”，那就是 Lisp。

If you want to write a chess engine, you would use Lisp.

如果你想编写一个国际象棋引擎，你会使用 Lisp。

And so for me, probably the moment I really fell in love with programming was Lisp, and writing Othello programs and chess engines, all kinds of engines that play a game, and then I could play against that thing and that thing would beat me.

所以对我来说，也许我真正爱上编程的那一刻就是 Lisp，编写 Othello 程序和国际象棋引擎，各种玩游戏的引擎，然后我可以和那个东西对战，那个东西会打败我。

The joy of being destroyed by the thing you’ve created.

被你所创造的东西摧毁的喜悦。

And oh, game of life too.

哦，还有生命游戏。

Cellular automata.

元胞自动机。

That’s when I…

就在那时我…

05:19 I built that, you know, all kinds of programming languages.

我构建了各种编程语言。

That’s less about programming languages and more about the system you create.

这与编程语言无关，更多与您创建的系统有关。

And that just filled me with infinite joy, having…

这让我充满了无限的喜悦，拥有……

Now similar to the linked list situation, creating a system where each individual cell only knows about its neighbors and operates in very simple rules.

现在类似于链表情况，创建一个系统，其中每个单独的单元仅了解其邻居并按非常简单的规则运行。

But when you take that system as a whole and allow it to evolve over time, you can create infinite complexity.

但是，当您将该系统视为一个整体并允许其随着时间的推移而发展时，您可以创造无限的复杂性。

So I just…

所以我只是……

Man, those are many pothead moments, where I’m just looking at the beautiful complexity that can be created with cellular automata.

伙计，那是很多令人头晕的时刻，我只是在看元胞自动机可以创造出的美丽的复杂性。

That filled me with just infinite joy, for sure.

当然，这让我充满了无限的快乐。

But yeah, all I remember is parentheses.

但是，是的，我只记得括号。

So my memories of my first are drowned in a sea of parentheses.

所以我对第一次的记忆淹没在括号的海洋中。

Oh man.

噢，伙计。

06:11 Well, first off, mine was in Java, so my first was a little bit more rigid, kind of, you know, a corporate experience.

嗯，首先，我的是 Java，所以我的第一个有点严格，你知道，是一种公司体验。

Yeah.

是的。

06:20 Cold, meaningless…

冰冷、无意义……

But…

但是……

06:23 yeah.

是的。

I was in a lab, everyone was using CentOS at that…

我当时在一个实验室，每个人都在使用 CentOS……

or Cent OS or however you say.

或 Cent OS 或者无论你怎么说。

I always called it CentOS, the fresh maker.

我一直称它为 CentOS，新鲜制造者。

Yeah.

是的。

And so it’s just like I’m in this very cold…

所以这就像我处于非常寒冷的状态......

That’s nice.

太好了。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Yeah.

是的。

I’m in this cold, rigid environment with my Microsoft keyboard, programming away in Java.

我在这个寒冷、僵化的环境中，使用 Microsoft 键盘，用 Java 进行编程。

06:34 And I still have just such…

而我还有这样的……

this memory of despair, because I love programming, this was after the linked list, and I cannot figure out recursion.

这段绝望的记忆，因为我喜欢编程，这是在链表之后，我无法弄清楚递归。

And so I go to the university store and I buy a book and it’s Deitel and Deitel learn Java and it has a section, Recursion, so I open it up and I start reading it, and it just doesn’t hit home.

所以我去大学商店买了一本书，里面有 Deitel 和 Deitel 学习 Java，其中有一个章节“递归”，所以我打开它并开始阅读，但它并没有击中要害。

And I’m spiraling into this.

我正在陷入这个困境。

Yeah.

是的。

Like, “Maybe I’m not a programmer.

就像，“也许我不是程序员。

07:02 Maybe I’m not worthy enough to enter into this circle of people who can figure out what the heck recursion means.” And Deitel and Deitel’s, I still remember this, their exact phrase was, “Every young budding developer solves this recursion program,” and it was the Tower of Hanoi.

也许我没有资格进入这个能够弄清楚递归到底意味着什么的人圈子。”我还记得 Deitel 和 Deitel 的说法，他们的原话是“每个年轻的崭露头角的开发人员都解决了这个递归程序”，这就是河内塔。

And guess what?

你猜怎么着？

I don’t know if I can solve the Tower of Hanoi to this day.

到现在也不知道能不能解决汉诺塔。

It’s a very hard recursive problem.

这是一个非常难的递归问题。

And I just sat there and thought, ” Oh my gosh.

我只是坐在那里想，“天哪。

I’m not going to make it.” And I sat there in the lab for eight hours, 10 hours doing these things, so worried.

我不会成功的。”我在实验室里坐了八个小时、十个小时做这些事情，非常担心。

It’s the week of recursion, we have to do a lab assignment.

这是递归的一周，我们必须做一个实验作业。

“I’m not going to be able to do it.” And I just remember being genuinely worried about that.

“我做不到。”我只记得我真的很担心这一点。

And then…

然后……

07:47 Because always my big problem was like, “Okay, do factorial.” Why not just use a for loop?

因为我的大问题总是这样，“好吧，做阶乘。”为什么不直接使用 for 循环呢？

“Okay, what about Fibonacci sequence?” Why not use a for loop?

“好吧，斐波那契数列怎么样？”为什么不使用 for 循环呢？

I don’t understand.

我不明白。

What’s the purpose of recursion?

递归的目的是什么？

I don’t understand it yet.

我还不明白。

It’s so powerful.

它是如此强大。

Why?

为什么？

It looks like a really complicated for loop.

它看起来像一个非常复杂的 for 循环。

And so I just could not understand it.

所以我就是无法理解。

And then lab came that day and it was, “I’m going to give you a 2D array you have to read from a file.

然后那天实验室来了，“我将给你一个 2D 数组，你必须从文件中读取。

This is what a starting position looks like.

这就是起始位置的样子。

This is what an ending position looks like.

这就是结束位置的样子。

This is what a wall looks like.

这就是墙的样子。

I want you to find me a path through the maze.” So I just sat there like, “Okay, well I guess I can just go up and I can create a visited grid, so I know not to visit these places anymore.” And then all of a sudden it just started clicking.

我希望你能帮我找到一条穿过迷宫的路。”所以我就坐在那里，“好吧，我想我可以上去创建一个访问过的网格，所以我知道不要再访问这些地方了。”然后突然间它开始点击。

Like, “Well, wait a second.

就像，“好吧，等一下。

I don’t know the maze, but if I just go up, right, down, and left, and hop back every time I’ve been to that square, don’t visit it, it will just go forever.”

我不知道那个迷宫，但如果我只是向上、向右、向下、向左走，每次去过那个广场就跳回来，就不要去它了，它就会永远消失。”

08:38 And I realized in that moment, I’m like, “I actually understand.

在那一刻我意识到，“我真的明白了。

I’ve understood recursion this whole time, I just never had a problem in which it actually made sense to use.

我一直都在理解递归，只是从来没有遇到过使用它真正有意义的问题。

And that was my big downfall, is that I was measuring my understanding with the problems that I had available, which were just list traversal, which is not a good use of recursion.

这是我最大的失败，是我用现有的问题来衡量我的理解，这些问题只是列表遍历，这不是递归的一个很好的用途。

And so I just remember that freeing…

所以我只记得自由……

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

Recursion.

递归。

It was a great moment in my life.

这是我生命中伟大的时刻。

I mean it does require, to be fair, a leap of faith, because people will tell you, those conformist, dogmatic, Java instructors will tell you, that this is important, to understand recursion.

我的意思是，公平地说，它确实需要信仰的飞跃，因为人们会告诉你，那些循规蹈矩、教条主义的 Java 讲师会告诉你，理解递归很重要。

09:01 But it takes a leap of faith that this is a different way of looking at the world, and it’s a powerful way of looking at the world.

但需要一个信念的飞跃，那就是这是一种不同的看待世界的方式，而且是一种强有力的看待世界的方式。

Actually, I think I remember my first now.

事实上，我想我现在还记得我的第一次。

All right.

好吧。

I think it was [inaudible 00:09:42] first search for one of the games.

我认为这是 [听不清 00:09:42] 第一次搜索其中一款游戏。

09:40 Maybe Othello, something like that, and for that implementing recursion.

也许奥赛罗，类似的东西，以及实现递归。

Understand that you can search trajectories through the space of states and do that recursively?

理解您可以在状态空间中搜索轨迹并递归地执行此操作吗？

That was mind blowing.

那真是令人兴奋。

Yeah.

是的。

Just imagining the possibilities.

只是想象一下可能性。

You can just see it all.

你可以看到这一切。

10:02 Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, just numbers flying.

是的，只是数字飞翔。

It was like The Beautiful Mind.

就像《美丽心灵》一样。

And that’s when I also discovered conspiracy theories, and I just saw.

就在那时我也发现了阴谋论，我刚刚看到了。

I saw the truth.

我看到了真相。

Okay, yeah.

好吧，是的。

So what were we talking about?

那么我们在说什么？

Oh, what was the most painful aspect of programming for you?

哦，编程对你来说最痛苦的方面是什么？

What memories do you have of deep, profound suffering in terms of programming in the early days?

对于早期的编程经历，你有哪些深刻的记忆？

I would say the biggest one that I can really hold on to had to be one of two experiences.

我想说，我真正能坚持的最重要的经历必须是两种经历之一。

10:27 The first experience was when I was at a place called Schedulicity, and…

第一次经历是当我在一个叫做“Schedulicity”的地方时，并且……

Am I not allowed to say the place [inaudible 00:10:43]

我不能说这个地方吗 [听不清 00:10:43]

You’re allowed.

你被允许了。

I’m not sure if they’re even operating still at this point, but they’re in-

我不确定他们现在是否仍在运营，但他们正在-

There was something funny about the name.

这个名字有一些有趣的地方。

10:47 I’m sorry.

对不起。

Oh, Schedulicity?

哦，日程安排？

10:48 Yeah.

是的。

Actually, the name was so bad that when you looked at their paid-for Google ad terms that they would make sure that they’re at the top of the list, the spellings were just insane, because no one knew how to spell the word Schedulicity, and so the Google optimizing for that is just hilarious.

事实上，这个名字太糟糕了，以至于当你查看他们的付费谷歌广告条款时，他们会确保它们位于列表的顶部，拼写简直是疯狂的，因为没有人知道如何拼写“Schedulicity”这个词，所以谷歌对此进行的优化真是太搞笑了。

But okay, go back to the thing.

但好吧，回到正题。

11:09 The thing that kills me the most about programming, what I actually considered the worst aspect of programming, is when you know everything.

关于编程，最让我丧命的事情，实际上我认为编程最糟糕的方面，就是当你知道一切的时候。

And so when I was at this job, it’s just every single day I’d come in, there were no surprises, there was no questions.

所以当我从事这份工作时，我每天都会进来，没有惊喜，没有问题。

I didn’t understand the code base, sure, that’s fair.

我不理解代码库，当然，这很公平。

I didn’t understand all the things about the code base.

我不了解有关代码库的所有内容。

But I knew I was going to go in, I was going to generate some sort of object from the database.

但我知道我要进去，我要从数据库中生成某种对象。

I was going to take that object from the database, and I was just going to map it over and just display it on the webpage.

我打算从数据库中获取该对象，然后将其映射并显示在网页上。

There’s no creativity, there’s nothing to it.

没有创造力，什么都没有。

It’s very almost factory line kind of work.

这几乎是工厂流水线的工作。

And that was a very difficult moment for me, which is…

那对我来说是一个非常困难的时刻，那就是……

11:46 I didn’t enjoy programming, because I knew everything about it.

我不喜欢编程，因为我知道它的一切。

I already knew exactly what I was going to do that day.

我已经清楚地知道那天我要做什么。

I knew all the hurdles I going to have to go over.

我知道我必须克服的所有障碍。

There was no unknown unknowns, if you will.

如果你愿意的话，没有未知的未知数。

It was just knowns at all times.

这在任何时候都是众所周知的。

And for me, that is the worst part about programming, is when you already know the solution and it’s just a matter of how fast you can type and get it out from your head to your hands.

对我来说，编程最糟糕的部分是，当你已经知道解决方案时，问题就在于你能以多快的速度打字并将其从头脑中传到手中。

So the absence of uncertainty, the absence of challenge, was the pain?

那么缺乏不确定性、缺乏挑战就是痛苦吗？

Yeah.

是的。

That’s pretty profound, Prime.

这是非常深刻的，Prime。

I’m more than just good looks.

我不仅仅是漂亮的外表。

12:18 I want you to know that.

我想让你知道这一点。

It’s a low bar.

这是一个低门槛。

12:21 What do you identify as?

你认为自己是什么？

I’m enjoying asking the general question.

我很喜欢问一般性问题。

38, male.

38岁，男。

Male.

男。

Husband of beautiful wife.

美丽妻子的丈夫。

Okay.

好的。

12:30 You stream about all kinds of programming, but what kind of programmer are you?

你直播各种各样的编程，但你是哪种程序员？

Are you full-stack developer, web programming?

您是全栈开发人员、网络编程吗？

And maybe can you lay out all the different kinds of programming and then place yourself in that, in terms of your identity.

也许你可以列出所有不同类型的编程，然后根据你的身份将自己置于其中。

Sexual identity as well.

性别认同也是如此。

Yeah, we can put it all in there.

是的，我们可以把一切都放在那里。

Okay.

好的。

Plus, obviously those two are very, very tightly coupled.

另外，显然这两者的耦合非常非常紧密。

I have seen you on the border of sexually aroused by certain languages.

我见过你在某些语言的性唤起的边缘。

12:55 I think you got real excited about OCaml, or…

我认为您对 OCaml 感到非常兴奋，或者……

OCaml.

奥卡姆。

13:01 Let’s go.

我们走吧。

Thank you Dillon Mulroy [inaudible 00:13:08]

谢谢 Dillon Mulroy [听不清 00:13:08]

Okay, wow.

好吧，哇。

Yeah.

是的。

I did not expect that.

我没想到会这样。

13:09 That escalated quickly.

事态迅速升级。

Anyway, what do you identify as?

无论如何，你认为自己是什么？

Okay, so first let’s do the previous or the in-between question first, which is the different archetypes.

好的，首先让我们先做上一个或中间的问题，即不同的原型。

13:13 I think that’s a really interesting question, because if you go on Twitter or you’re new, your thoughts are probably that there is just web programming, and maybe there’s some other stuff, yeah, like game programming, but you’d be like, game programming in JavaScript and on the web.

我认为这是一个非常有趣的问题，因为如果你上 Twitter 或者你是新手，你的想法可能是只有 Web 编程，也许还有其他一些东西，是的，比如游戏编程，但你会想，用 JavaScript 和 Web 进行游戏编程。

There’s this very myopic view of the programming world, and I bet if you ask a lot of people these days what is the most popular form of programming, they’d probably say web.

人们对编程世界的看法非常短视，我敢打赌，如果你现在问很多人最流行的编程形式是什么，他们可能会说网络。

If you said what contains the most amount of repos, how many percentage of repos on GitHub are web-based, they probably say 90% or some huge number.

如果你说什么包含最多数量的存储库，GitHub 上的存储库有多少百分比是基于网络的，他们可能会说 90% 或某个巨大的数字。

But the reality is that there’s an entire embedded robotics world.

但现实是存在一个完整的嵌入式机器人世界。

13:56 You know, you’re familiar with the ML side of things.

您知道，您熟悉机器学习方面的内容。

There’s networking, there’s going to be just performance, operating systems, compilers.

有网络，就只有性能、操作系统和编译器。

There’s just huge amounts of variation of all these different types of programming verticals that you can be.

您可以从事的所有这些不同类型的编程垂直领域存在着巨大的变化。

And so we often talk about programming in perspective of web, or something that’s pretty narrow, and I think that’s just a social construct of Twitter more than anything else, that actually I don’t believe it’s that representative of the entire programming world out there.

所以我们经常从网络的角度谈论编程，或者一些相当狭隘的东西，我认为这只是 Twitter 的一种社会结构，实际上我不相信它代表了整个编程世界。

And I think a lot of programming’s really, really fun.

我认为很多编程都非常非常有趣。

There’s some really great stuff.

有一些非常棒的东西。

Building your own language is just a very fun experience to do.

构建自己的语言是一种非常有趣的体验。

Every programmer should just do that once, just to have a completely different perspective on how things work in life.

每个程序员都应该这样做一次，只是为了对生活中的事物如何运作有一个完全不同的视角。

14:36 But as far as what do I do, I’ve always looked at myself as a tools engineer.

但就我的工作而言，我一直将自己视为一名工具工程师。

So at my time, at my jobs, typically I would start off on the UI, and then they’d be like, “Okay, well hey, we need a library for this thing.” So then I’d be the one writing the library.

所以在我那个时候，在我的工作中，通常我会从用户界面开始，然后他们会说，“好吧，嘿，我们需要一个用于这个东西的库。”那么我就是编写这个库的人了。

So in 2012, 2013, I was writing a UI library for the web that can behave just like an iPad, so you can pinch and zoom on it, but it’s still a web page.

所以在 2012 年、2013 年，我正在为网络编写一个 UI 库，它的行为就像 iPad 一样，所以你可以捏和缩放它，但它仍然是一个网页。

Because we didn’t have any of that stuff back then.

因为我们当时没有这些东西。

It was a canvas, had to do all the matrices operations and all that stuff to…

它是一块画布，必须执行所有矩阵运算和所有这些操作才能……

Nice.

不错。

You know, it felt like you’re on an iPad, but it actually wasn’t on an iPad.

你知道，感觉就像你在 iPad 上，但实际上不是在 iPad 上。

15:05 And this was iPad 2 by the way, so this is a long time ago.

顺便说一句，这是 iPad 2，所以这是很久以前的事了。

And so every single time I got into a job it’s like, “Okay, hey, we need to do a library.

所以每次我开始工作时都会说，“好吧，嘿，我们需要建一个图书馆。

Hey, can you work on a build system?” So back then there was no Grunt, there was no gulp, there was no any of those things, so I had to hand roll my own JavaScript build system.

嘿，你能开发一个构建系统吗？”所以那时候没有 Grunt，没有 gulp，没有任何这些东西，所以我不得不手动推出我自己的 JavaScript 构建系统。

And so I always fell into these positions of building tools for developers to be successful.

因此，我总是致力于为开发人员构建成功的工具。

And I’ve always really enjoyed that region.

我一直非常喜欢那个地区。

So as I went on to say Netflix, spent 10 years there, I’d say the majority of my 10 years were building things for developers to use that they could be successful at their job.

因此，当我接着说 Netflix 时，我在那里度过了 10 年，我会说我这 10 年的大部分时间都在为开发人员构建可以在工作中取得成功的东西。

15:45 And so I’ve always really enjoyed that aspect, because your shareholders and the people that use your program understand programming and they’re going to say, “Hey, I need this.” And typically the thing that they need, they actually want.

所以我一直很喜欢这个方面，因为你的股东和使用你的程序的人了解编程，他们会说，“嘿，我需要这个。”通常，他们需要的东西是他们真正想要的。

Whereas with people, people want stuff, but what they actually need versus what they actually want often are this weird separation.

而对于人来说，人们想要东西，但他们真正需要的东西和他们真正想要的东西往往是这种奇怪的分离。

That’s like the old Henry Ford quote, “I just want a faster horse,” and he’s like, “No, what you actually want is a car.” And so you have to play this game of trying to really figure it out, whereas developers, it’s like, “I know you know what I’m doing.

这就像亨利·福特的一句老话，“我只想要一匹更快的马”，而他说，“不，你真正想要的是一辆汽车。”所以你必须玩这个游戏，试图真正弄清楚它，而开发人员就像，“我知道你知道我在做什么。

I know what you want.

我知道你想要什么。

Let’s figure it out together.”

我们一起想办法吧。”

Actually that gives you a really nice big-picture view of programming in general.

实际上，这给了你一个非常好的总体编程视图。

16:20 So I love the idea of just starting at the interface, like you need to pinch and all that kind of stuff, and then figure out the entire thing that requires to make that happen, including maybe the side quest tooling, how to make it more productive and efficient, all that kind of stuff.

所以我喜欢从界面开始的想法，就像你需要捏和所有类似的东西，然后弄清楚实现这一点所需的整个事情，可能包括支线任务工具，如何使其更有生产力和效率，所有这些东西。

So the entirety of the thing.

所以整个事情。

That’s really cool.

这真的很酷。

Yeah.

是的。

Okay, so that would be full stack?

好吧，那这就是全栈了？

16:43 By that general definition of full stack, meaning…

根据全栈的一般定义，意思是……

Perhaps, yeah.

也许，是的。

Versus systems starting at the bottom and trying to optimize a certain kind of specific thing without seeing the big picture of what the resulting interface would look like.

与从底层开始并尝试优化某种特定事物的系统相比，没有看到最终界面的整体情况。

Yeah.

是的。

And a lot of people in web programming, they never go beyond the front end of how a thing looks.

很多从事网络编程的人，他们永远不会超越事物的前端外观。

17:02 They kind of always assume there’ll be somebody, some grunt in the shadows, in the darkness of the basement, that will implement the back end.

他们总是假设会有人，在黑暗的地下室的阴影中，会实施后端。

Some Gilfoyle out there will be doing the back end.

一些吉尔福伊尔将负责后端工作。

Gilfoyle.

吉尔福伊尔。

Yeah, I like to call myself a generalist, just to give some ideas.

是的，我喜欢称自己为多面手，只是为了提供一些想法。

17:19 At one point at Netflix I built the WebSocket connection.

我曾在 Netflix 建立过 WebSocket 连接。

So for TVs, how WebSocket works is code I just wrote.

所以对于电视来说，WebSocket 的工作原理是我刚刚编写的代码。

And so I built the framing thing, and before that I was doing stuff with memory, and before that I built a UI for a tool.

所以我构建了框架，在此之前我使用内存做一些事情，在此之前我为工具构建了 UI。

Right?

对吗？

I can just do the thing.

我只能做这件事。

You just tell me the thing to do and I’ll just go do the thing.

你只要告诉我要做什么，我就会去做。

I don’t try to get super good at one specific activity.

我不会试图在一项特定活动上变得非常出色。

I don’t want to be a Kubernetes engineer, who’s the world’s greatest employer, but if I had to go learn Kubernetes, I’d go learn it and learn how to deploy some things, and then hopefully move on to the next thing, if that makes sense.

我不想成为一名 Kubernetes 工程师，他是世界上最伟大的雇主，但如果我必须去学习 Kubernetes，我会去学习它并学习如何部署一些东西，然后希望继续进行下一个事情，如果这有意义的话。

I posted about the fact that I’m talking to you on Reddit, and there’s a lot of wonderful questions.

我在 Reddit 上发布了我正在与您交谈的事实，并且有很多精彩的问题。

17:58 Somebody mentioned that I should ask you about DevOps.

有人提到我应该向你询问有关 DevOps 的问题。

Can you explain what DevOps is?

您能解释一下什么是 DevOps 吗？

Is it a kind of special ops of programmers, is it SEAL Team Six of developers?

是程序员的一种特殊行动，还是海豹六队的开发人员？

What’s DevOps?

什么是 DevOps？

Can you define…

你能定义...

Are you a DevOps engineer?

您是 DevOps 工程师吗？

Well, people keep telling me DevOps isn’t real.

嗯，人们一直告诉我 DevOps 并不真实。

18:14 There’s actually, you want platform engineers, cloud engineers, infra engineers.

实际上，你需要平台工程师、云工程师、基础设施工程师。

I just often think the easiest way, if we’re doing just some basic nomenclature, it’s just DevOps are the people that make sure that when you launch a service and all of that, it doesn’t just disappear.

我经常想到最简单的方法，如果我们只做一些基本的术语，那么 DevOps 就是确保当你启动一项服务时，它不会消失。

Right?

对吗？

It’s all the backbone of being able to operate something at scale.

这是能够大规模运营某项业务的支柱。

18:37 Really, if you think about it, if you’re just writing a mom-and-pa website, people that do PHP that are doing WordPress and all that, they’re going to build something, they’re going to hand it off to, I don’t know, Linode, DigitalOcean, some company.

真的，如果你想一想，如果你只是写一个妈妈和爸爸的网站，那些做 PHP 的人正在做 WordPress 之类的，他们会构建一些东西，他们会把它交给，我不知道，Linode，DigitalOcean，一些公司。

They don’t really need a really complicated build, deployment, all this.

他们实际上并不需要非常复杂的构建、部署等等。

It’s just someone with a simple website so they can sell their goods.

这只是一个拥有简单网站的人，这样他们就可以销售他们的商品。

And so they don’t really need that.

所以他们并不真正需要那个。

And so that’s kind of how I think of a DevOps, is when things need to scale, that’s the person you hire.

这就是我对 DevOps 的看法，当事情需要扩展时，这就是你雇用的人。

Yeah, those people are actually amazing.

是的，那些人确实很了不起。

Yeah.

是的。

The time I spent at Google, it’s like oh yeah yeah, there’s all these fancy machine learning people, but the folks that are running the infrastructure, basically that make sure that shit doesn’t go down, they’re like wizards, and they’re essential.

我在谷歌度过的时光，就像是哦，是的，这里有很多出色的机器学习人员，但运行基础设施的人员基本上是确保不会出现问题，他们就像巫师一样，而且他们是必不可少的。

It’s a very incredible vertical of job.

这是一个非常令人难以置信的垂直工作。

19:23 And obviously I’m using a very broad term to describe, I’m sure, a bunch…

显然，我确信我使用了一个非常广泛的术语来描述一堆……

You know, because making sure stuff doesn’t go down, you could also say that’s an SRE, right?

你知道，因为要确保事情不会发生故障，你也可以说这是 SRE，对吧？

Site reliability engineer.

站点可靠性工程师。

Whatever, the ones that wear the bomber jackets at Google.

不管怎样，那些在谷歌穿飞行员夹克的人。

And so when we say DevOps, I think people get very particular about terms specifically in this category.

因此，当我们说 DevOps 时，我认为人们对这一类别中的术语非常挑剔。

They’re like, “Well actually, you’re mentioning infrastructure engineer versus site reliability engineer.” It’s just like, “Okay, yes, I hear you,” but generally when someone thinks DevOps, they think somebody that manages the servers and their life cycles and the reliability.

他们会说，“实际上，你提到的是基础设施工程师与站点可靠性工程师。”就像“好吧，是的，我听到了”，但通常当有人想到 DevOps 时，他们会想到管理服务器及其生命周期和可靠性的人。

There’s DevOps.

有 DevOps。

Is it real?

这是真的吗？

I’m not sure.

我不确定。

Okay.

好的。

Did Vercel kill DevOps?

Vercel 杀死了 DevOps 吗？

Question mark?

问号？

Question mark.

问号。

Yeah.

是的。

20:04 Wow, you’re almost a journalist.

哇，你几乎是一名记者了。

That’s a headline.

这是一个标题。

Let’s go back to the beginning.

让我们回到开头。

All right.

好吧。

Baby Prime.

宝贝总理。

20:11 So you mentioned Netflix.

所以你提到了Netflix。

Oh, I worked at Netflix by the way.

哦，顺便说一句，我在 Netflix 工作过。

For people who don’t know who ThePrimeagen is, he mentions the fact that he has been very successful and has worked at Netflix in basically every other sentence.

对于那些不知道 ThePrimeagen 是谁的人来说，他基本上每一句话都会提到他非常成功并且曾在 Netflix 工作过。

Correct.

正确。

20:29 Almost as much as I mention Neovim.

几乎和我提到 Neovim 一样多。

Oh, great.

哦，太好了。

20:33 Tell me more about Neovim.

告诉我更多关于 Neovim 的信息。

No, please don’t.

不，请不要。

So, baby Prime.

所以，宝贝Prime。

At the very beginning.

一开始。

You’ve had one hell of a life, and I think it’s inspiring to a lot of people.

你经历了地狱般的生活，我认为这对很多人来说都是鼓舞人心的。

You’ve gone through a lot of painful low points, including meth addiction, loss, and like you mentioned, you’ve come out of that to become a successful programmer and a person that inspires a huge number of people to get into programming, and just to find success in life.

你经历了很多痛苦的低谷，包括冰毒成瘾、失落，就像你提到的，你已经摆脱困境，成为一名成功的程序员，一个激励大量人进入编程的人，并只是为了在生活中找到成功。

So maybe…

所以也许……

I would love it if you laid out just your whole life journey from the beginning.

如果你从一开始就规划出你的整个人生旅程，我会很高兴。

So I guess if we’re going to start with this whole journey, I think it’s probably best to start to when I was about four or five years old.

所以我想如果我们要开始整个旅程，我认为最好在我四五岁的时候开始。

21:11 That was the first time I was ever exposed to pornography, and it’s kind of just earwormed me for a large portion of my life.

那是我第一次接触色情内容，在我生命的大部分时间里，它让我耳目一新。

And so I don’t think there was a day that didn’t go by from when I was a very young lad all the way up until I was twenty-some years old where I didn’t think about porn on the daily basis.

所以我认为从我很小的时候一直到我二十多岁，我每天都会想到色情片。

And so it was just every single day, even that young.

所以这就是每一天，即使是那么年轻。

And so it was just a very mind-consuming, time-consuming, thought consuming thing that plagued me, starting at a very young age.

所以这是一件非常耗时、耗时、费思想的事情，从很小的时候就开始困扰着我。

21:47 When I was seven years old, my dad died.

当我七岁的时候，我的父亲去世了。

That was a really tough period of life.

那真是人生的一段艰难时期。

I still think about this time that I went over to China, and there’s some rules that we were given, and one of the rules was just like, “Hey, don’t talk about God, and if you do, use the word ‘Dad’ instead.” And I was just like, “Okay, Dad!” It was the first time I said that word in 17 years or some long time.

我仍然记得这次我去中国，我们被制定了一些规则，其中一条规则就像是，“嘿，不要谈论上帝，如果你谈论上帝，就用‘爸爸’这个词来代替。”我当时就想：“好吧，爸爸！”这是我 17 年或者很长一段时间以来第一次说这个词。

It was so weird to say that phrase.

这句话说出来真是太奇怪了。

And I was just like, “Oh, that was just the strangest thing I’ve ever said in my entire lifetime.” It just felt so weird.

我当时想，“哦，这是我一生中说过的最奇怪的事情。”只是感觉很奇怪。

Yeah.

是的。

22:23 Yeah.

是的。

So, kind of rewind.

所以，有点倒带。

22:24 As I got older, obviously was very good at computers, good at accessing porn, of course, played video games on the Internet.

随着年龄的增长，显然我非常擅长计算机，擅长访问色情内容，当然，还喜欢在互联网上玩视频游戏。

Fun fun kind of side quest story.

有趣有趣的支线任务故事。

I think the guy’s name is Lord Toc on Twitch.

我认为这个人的名字是 Twitch 上的托克勋爵。

I can’t quite remember his name, but he built this game called Grail, G-R-A-A-L, and Graal Online.

我不太记得他的名字了，但他开发了这款名为 Grail、G-R-A-A-L 和 Graal Online 的游戏。

And when I was a young lad it was just like Zelda, except for it also had a level editor and it had a C-like language, and that’s how I discovered how to program, is I looked at these symbols and figured out what they meant, and then I was able to make things happen in the game.

当我还是个小伙子的时候，它就像《塞尔达》一样，除了它还有一个关卡编辑器和一种类似 C 的语言，这就是我发现如何编程的方式，我看着这些符号并弄清楚它们的含义，然后我能够让游戏中的事情发生。

And that’s my introduction into programming.

这就是我对编程的介绍。

So thank you that guy, whatever your Twitch name was.

所以谢谢那个人，无论你的 Twitch 名字是什么。

But all right, so keep on going.

但好吧，所以继续吧。

23:08 As I got older, I was super bad socially.

随着年龄的增长，我的社交能力变得非常差。

I was not a very great social person.

我不是一个善于交际的人。

High school is brutal, got made fun of a lot, really I wouldn’t say had a great time during high school.

高中是残酷的，被嘲笑了很多，真的，我不会说高中度过了愉快的时光。

Definitely felt very out of place or offset or maybe misplaced, if you will.

如果你愿意的话，绝对感觉非常不合适或偏移或可能错位。

I’m not sure what the right word is.

我不确定什么是正确的词。

And so of course at that point, I just always wanted to be accepted, to fit in and all that.

当然，在那一点上，我总是希望被接受、融入等等。

I did forget to say one side story.

我确实忘了说一个旁白。

After my dad died, my older brother, he started getting into drugs, and along with that he exposed me to pot, so at eight years old I was smoking some marijuana for a while there, until maybe 11 or 12, and took a break, and then again did a lot of that as I got a little bit older, but…

我父亲去世后，我的哥哥开始吸毒，随之而来的是他让我接触大麻，所以在八岁的时候，我在那里吸了一段时间大麻，直到大概11或12岁，然后休息了一下，然后随着年龄的增长，我又吸了很多大麻，但是……

23:55 So I got a lot of these exposures fairly young.

所以我很小的时候就接触过很多这样的事情。

16, 15 through 18, lot of drinking and all that.

16、15到18，大量饮酒等等。

When I graduated, or as I was graduating high school, I had such sadness, if you will.

当我毕业时，或者当我高中毕业时，如果你愿意的话，我有过这样的悲伤。

I was very sad about how everything went, tried to commit suicide, obviously it was a very poor attempt and I’m still here today.

我对一切的进展感到非常难过，试图自杀，显然这是一次非常糟糕的尝试，而我今天还在这里。

I’m very happy about that aspect.

我对这方面感到非常高兴。

I’m glad that I didn’t follow through with anything, had to go to the hospital and all that.

我很高兴我没有做任何事情，不得不去医院等等。

And when I was done, I just still remember coming out of the hospital, and at that moment it’s kind of like something broke in you.

当我完成后，我仍然记得从医院出来的那一刻，就像有什么东西打破了你的内心。

Have you ever read the book Wheel of Time?

你读过《时光之轮》这本书吗？

It’s 14,000 pages or something like that, but right around page 12,000, Rand has to intentionally kill a girl, the main character.

它有 14,000 页或类似的内容，但在 12,000 页左右，兰德必须故意杀死一个女孩，也就是主角。

And that’s the moment he breaks, and he gets into like Hard Rand.

就在那时，他崩溃了，他像哈兰德一样陷入困境。

[inaudible 00:24:46] Rand, if you will, for those that know Wheel of Time will appreciate all that.

[听不清 00:24:46] 兰德，如果你愿意的话，那些了解时间之轮的人会欣赏这一切。

For those that don’t, very confusing, and I understand.

对于那些不这样做的人来说，非常令人困惑，我理解。

Not the Amazon movie show, not that Wheel of Time.

不是亚马逊电影秀，也不是时光之轮。

24:57 So now that we go back onto it, at that point it’s just like something kind of broke in me, and I just didn’t care anymore.

所以现在我们回到这个话题，那时我就像有什么东西打破了我的内心，我不再关心了。

So all the social awkwardness, if you will, all that, just died away with me, but also so did everything else.

所以，所有的社交尴尬，如果你愿意的话，所有这些都随着我消失了，但其他一切也都消失了。

And so I started using a bunch of drugs.

所以我开始使用一堆药物。

LSD, mushrooms, meth.

LSD、蘑菇、冰毒。

Did a bunch of meth, did a bunch of that stuff, and then went off to college and continued to do a bunch of stuff.

吸了很多冰毒，做了很多类似的事情，然后上了大学，继续做了很多事情。

I took too much acid to where for quite a few years, I had little squigglies on the side of my eyes whenever I’d walk by high contrast objects.

多年来，我服用了太多的酸，每当我走过高对比度的物体时，我的眼睛一侧就会出现小波浪。

And so it’s just that whole period of life was just kind of marked by just poor decisions.

所以，整个人生阶段都以错误的决定为标志。

25:39 And then sometime when I was about 19 years old, somewhere in that range, I just had this one evening where I felt the very dramatic and real presence of God.

然后，当我大约 19 岁的时候，在这个范围内的某个地方，我刚刚度过了这个晚上，我感受到了上帝非常戏剧性和真实的存在。

And I kind of had this choice, like Frodo, on a razor, where it’s like if I go either way, I’m going to fall off, and I need to change my life.

我有这样的选择，就像弗罗多，在剃须刀上，如果我走任何一条路，我都会掉下来，我需要改变我的生活。

You get to make the choice now.

你现在就必须做出选择。

Do you want to do that or not?

你想不想这样做？

And so I remember going, “Okay, I do want to change my life.

所以我记得我说：“好吧，我确实想改变我的生活。

I don’t like this experience.

我不喜欢这种经历。

I don’t like what I’m living.

我不喜欢我现在的生活。

I am still very sad, I still feel very desperate.

我仍然很伤心，我仍然感到很绝望。

I still feel all those things.

我仍然感受到所有这些事情。

I’m just pretending to be this other person.” And then I just went to sleep that night.

我只是假装自己是另一个人。”然后那天晚上我就去睡觉了。

Nothing changed in my life.

我的生活没有任何改变。

Everything was still the way it was.

一切还是原来的样子。

I woke up the next day, the same person, and I was just like, “Oh, that’s just such a strange, weird experience.”

第二天我醒来，还是同一个人，我就想，“哦，这真是一次奇怪、奇怪的经历。”

26:29 And I just went about my day.

我刚刚度过了我的一天。

And then I remember, I think that evening, I looked at porn, and all of a sudden I just had a conscious…

然后我记得，我想那天晚上，我看了色情片，突然间我有一种意识……

just this deep, profound shame.

就是这种深深的耻辱。

And I was like, “I’ve never felt shame in my life.

我当时想，“我一生中从未感到羞耻。

I have no idea what’s happening now.” And then all of a sudden when I smoked pot, I just felt deep shame.

我不知道现在发生了什么。”然后突然间，当我抽大麻时，我感到深深的羞耻。

And when I hurt somebody or did something wrong, all of a sudden…

当我伤害某人或做错事时，突然……

It’s just like I got a conscious from that evening.

就像那天晚上我有了意识一样。

That’s what my gift was, if you will.

如果你愿意的话，这就是我的礼物。

And just at that point, I didn’t even have a choice.

就在那时，我什至没有选择。

I had to change my life, because for whatever reason, I’ve been changed in a moment.

我必须改变我的生活，因为无论出于什么原因，我瞬间就被改变了。

27:05 And so from there I started actually trying in school.

从那时起，我开始在学校进行实际尝试。

I always joke around that I got 2.14 in high school.

我总是开玩笑说我高中时得了2.14。

I had a teacher hand write me a note saying I was the worst student she’s ever had.

我有一位老师亲手给我写了一张纸条，说我是她教过的最差的学生。

All that kind of stuff.

所有这些东西。

I was not a really great student.

我并不是一个真正优秀的学生。

And then in that moment it’s just like, “Okay, now life’s changed,” and I start trying to learn, and I try to become a good student.

然后在那一刻，我就像是，“好吧，现在生活改变了”，我开始尝试学习，并努力成为一名好学生。

And it turns out it’s really hard.

事实证明这真的很难。

I was really bad.

我真的很糟糕。

I still got Cs.

我还是有Cs。

I went and took pre-calculus and failed pre-calculus, and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I used to be the smart math guy, and now I’m the idiot failing.” And so I’m just questioning myself and all that, and I spent hours upon hours in a studying, math learning center, and then just at some point years into this journey, I’m like a year and a half into this journey, at this point, something clicks, and I go from being the worst person to just immediately becoming the best.

我去参加了微积分预科课程，但是微积分预科课程失败了，我想，“天哪，我曾经是一个聪明的数学家伙，现在我是一个失败的白痴。”所以我只是在质疑自己和所有这一切，我在一个学习、数学学习中心花了几个小时，然后就在这段旅程的几年里的某个时刻，我进入这段旅程大约一年半了，在这一点上，有些事情发生了，我从最差的人立即变成了最好的人。

27:58 Everything after that is just, I don’t know what happened.

之后的一切，我都不知道发生了什么。

All of a sudden I was the best person at math.

突然之间，我成了数学方面最好的人。

I started going into my computer science classes.

我开始学习计算机科学课程。

I just really got everything.

我真的得到了一切。

Everything, at just years after trying, just all of a sudden became easier.

尝试了几年后，一切突然变得更容易了。

And I’m not sure if it happened over the course of weeks or when the easier started, but it was just first predicated by just a huge amount of difficulty.

我不确定这是否是在几周内发生的，或者是更容易的事情何时开始的，但它只是首先由巨大的困难来预测。

And then this is where I started really desiring and loving the process of learning, was when things started getting easier after all those years.

然后这就是我开始真正渴望和热爱学习过程的地方，也是这些年来事情开始变得更容易的时候。

28:27 Because I just was motivated by this desire to do something, not thinking it was going to get any easier, and then all of a sudden it just started getting easier, and it was great.

因为我只是被这种想做某事的愿望所激励，而不是认为它会变得更容易，然后突然间它开始变得更容易，这很棒。

And that’s really where I guess I started having the biggest parts of my life change at that point.

我想这就是我生命中最大的部分开始发生变化的地方。

I started really, really, really wanting to never look at porn again, because every single time just such shame, and I really wanted to stop.

我开始真的、真的、真的不想再看色情片了，因为每次都感到羞耻，我真的想停下来。

And that was by far the hardest addiction to quit.

这是迄今为止最难戒掉的瘾。

Smoking cigarettes was also a really hard addiction to quit, shockingly hard addiction to quit, but porn by far was just the worst of them all.

吸烟也是一种很难戒掉的瘾，令人震惊的难以戒掉的瘾，但到目前为止，色情片只是其中最糟糕的。

And then I think about 22, I was finally done with all kind of addictions, if you will, and then for a year I just worked in all that, and I think right around, maybe it was 21 and three quarters, somewhere in that range, I’m not really sure where I stopped all the addictions part, but…

然后我想到22岁，如果你愿意的话，我终于摆脱了各种成瘾，然后我花了一年的时间从事这一切，我想大约是21岁又四分之三，在这个范围内的某个地方，我不太确定我在哪里停止了所有成瘾部分，但是......

Or at least the outwardly addictions.

或者至少是表面上的瘾。

And then at some point, six months later, a year later, met my beautiful wife.

然后在某个时候，六个月后，一年后，我遇到了我美丽的妻子。

Things just started falling more and more into place.

事情开始变得越来越顺利。

I loved more and more work.

我越来越热爱工作。

I loved programming.

我喜欢编程。

I started programming 12 hours a day.

我开始每天编程 12 小时。

I watched the Social Network movie, and after that, I was just like, “I’m doing a startup.” And so that night I started my first startup, and I was just like, so…

我看了《社交网络》电影，在那之后，我就想，“我正在创业。”所以那天晚上我开始了我的第一次创业，我就像，所以......

It was in PHP by way.

顺便说一句，它是用 PHP 编写的。

Nice.

好的。

PHP, yeah, 5.2 or something like that.

PHP，是的，5.2 或类似的东西。

29:41 It was great.

太棒了。

Great times.

美好的时光。

And I was just so motivated to do that, and I would just program for…

我非常有动力这样做，我只是为了……而编程。

Sometimes I’d program for 24, 36 hours straight, and just nonstop, that’s all I wanted to do at all points.

有时我会连续编程 24、36 小时，而且不间断，这就是我在任何时候都想做的事情。

I think my wife got a little sick of me.

我想我妻子有点厌烦我了。

She would be like, “Can you drop me off at school?” And I’d be like, “No, I’m programming.” I was not a very nice…

她会说：“你能送我去学校吗？”我会说，“不，我正在编程。”我本来就不是一个很好的人……

You know, I didn’t think through things that well.

你知道，我没有考虑清楚事情。

Yeah yeah.

是啊是啊。

30:04 Yeah.

是的。

I was just so into it and I just did it nonstop, and that’s kind of how I became me, is that story, if that makes sense.

我太投入了，不停地做，这就是我成为我的方式，就是这个故事，如果这有意义的话。

Let’s try to reverse engineer some of the pain and some of the triumph.

让我们尝试对一些痛苦和一些胜利进行逆向工程。

30:13 You made it sound easy at times.

有时你让它听起来很容易。

Let’s try to understand it better, maybe when you were seven years old.

让我们试着更好地理解它，也许当你七岁时。

What do you think about the pain you’ve experienced there, losing your dad?

对于你在那里经历的失去父亲的痛苦，你有何看法？

What do you think?

你怎么认为？

What kind of impact did it have on you?

它对你产生了什么样的影响？

What kind of memories do you have at that time?

那时的你有什么样的回忆呢？

The best way I can put it is that I just never knew what a dad was.

我能说的最好的说法是，我从来不知道父亲是什么。

30:33 I was young enough that I could maybe repress or just even have the capability of remembering things long-term.

我还年轻，也许可以压抑，甚至有能力长期记住事情。

Because I know most people don’t remember a lot from when they’re young, and so I’m not exactly sure.

因为我知道大多数人年轻时的记忆并不多，所以我不太确定。

I probably was at one of the best possible ages, if I’m going to lose a dad, to lose a dad.

如果我要失去父亲的话，我可能正处于最好的年龄之一。

You know?

你知道？

If you’re going to lose one, if you’re 11 or 12, it’s a terrible age.

如果你即将失去一个，如果你是 11 岁或 12 岁，那是一个可怕的年龄。

That’s what my brother was, and he fell into drug addiction and never got back out.

我哥哥就是这样，他染上了毒瘾，再也没有戒掉。

So I just have more of a fuzziness and just kind of a longing.

所以我只是有更多的模糊感和渴望。

I just wish I had a dad.

我只希望我有一个爸爸。

What impact did that have on your evolution, on your life, having that longing?

这对你的进化、对你的生活、对你的渴望有什么影响？

I think that’s why I was so bad socially, in the sense that I was looking for approval, right?

我想这就是为什么我的社交能力如此糟糕，因为我在寻求认可，对吗？

31:16 I needed approval.

我需要批准。

I think a lot of people desire that approval or that loving figure, and I just didn’t have that.

我认为很多人都渴望那种认可或那种充满爱的形象，但我却没有。

So I think I just looked for it in everything else, right?

所以我想我只是在其他一切中寻找它，对吧？

If I were to psychoanalyze my actions.

如果我要对我的行为进行心理分析。

During the time, it’s not like I was actively thinking that, but yeah, I just always wanted something to fill in whatever that was I felt.

在那段时间里，我并没有积极地思考这个问题，但是，是的，我只是一直想要一些东西来填补我的感受。

I think a lot of people listening to this will resonate with your experience in high school.

我想很多人听到这个都会对你高中的经历产生共鸣。

31:44 Being the outsider, being picked on, struggling through a lot of different complexities at home.

作为局外人，被欺负，在家里挣扎于许多不同的复杂情况。

What advice would you give to them?

您会给他们什么建议？

The worst part about high school is that you’re surrounded by a bunch of people your age and it feels eternal.

高中最糟糕的部分是，你被一群与你同龄的人包围，感觉很永恒。

Yeah.

是的。

You don’t think…

你不认为……

32:05 The people that are around you, you feel like are the people that will be there for the rest of your life.

你周围的人，你觉得是你余生的人。

At least that’s what I thought.

至少我是这么想的。

And I didn’t really even realize this until many years later, that they are going to be some of the least consequential people in your life.

直到很多年后我才真正意识到这一点，他们将成为你生活中最不重要的人。

Yeah.

是的。

Which is very shocking to think about, especially if you’re in it right now.

想想就非常令人震惊，尤其是如果你现在就身在其中的话。

Yeah.

是的。

Right?

正确的？

32:27 Right now they are everything that your experience is, your whole reality.

现在它们就是你的经历的一切，你的整个现实。

And then one day it all stops, and then real life starts to begin.

然后有一天，一切都停止了，然后真正的生活开始了。

Yeah.

是的。

That’s such a shocking thing, and if I could just tell myself that, maybe I would have been a bunch of different person.

这是一件令人震惊的事情，如果我能告诉自己这一点，也许我会变成一个不同的人。

That’s so beautifully put.

说得真漂亮。

32:42 I mean, it is like a trial run.

我的意思是，这就像一次试运行。

You know at the beginning of video games, there’s a little tutorial?

你知道在电子游戏开始时，有一些教程吗？

That’s what that is.

就是这样。

Yeah.

是的。

And actually that should be a chance to try shit out, to take risks, because real life will begin with, there is more consequences after that.

事实上，这应该是一个尝试、冒险的机会，因为现实生活将开始，之后会有更多后果。

Yeah.

是的。

Because real life will begin where there is more consequences after that.

因为真正的生活将从之后产生更多后果的地方开始。

Yeah.

是的。

Here you can, if you like a girl, ask her out.

在这里，如果您喜欢一个女孩，可以约她出去。

33:03 Try, try shit.

试试，试试狗屎。

If you get picked on, hit that guy back.

如果你被欺负了，就反击那个人。

Try shit out.

尝试一下吧。

I’m not going to condone punching another person.

我不会容忍殴打他人。

I will.

我会。

33:13 Beat the shit out of him, and take some jiu-jitsu and learn how to take him down.

把他打得屁滚尿流，学点柔术，学习如何打倒他。

And then that girl that rejected you will be like, “Hmm, maybe I’ll give that guy a second chance.” Be a bad motherfucker.

然后那个拒绝你的女孩会说，“嗯，也许我会给那个人第二次机会。”做一个坏混蛋。

It’s a chance to try stuff out.

这是一个尝试新事物的机会。

This is a very motivational speech for kicking ass.

这是一篇非常励志的演讲。

It is true.

是真的。

33:31 I mean, there is something very true about that, that I think especially…

我的意思是，这里面有一些非常真实的东西，我特别认为……

I mean, I have no idea what the girls experience of high school would be like, but as a guy, there’s definitely a lot of like physical requirements in high school.

我的意思是，我不知道女孩在高中的经历会是什么样，但作为一个男孩，高中肯定有很多类似的身体要求。

There’s a lot of physical measurement, at least where I grew up.

有很多物理测量，至少在我长大的地方是这样。

I think that might not be true in all high schools, but if they’re filled with boys, it’s probably true.

我认为这可能不是所有高中都是如此，但如果他们都是男孩，这可能是真的。

33:51 And so it’s just like, yeah, it probably does help to do those things, to go to BJJ, to do any of these activities.

所以这就像，是的，做这些事情，去巴西柔术，做任何这些活动可能确实有帮助。

Because even if you don’t ever kick someone’s ass, just having some level of confidence in yourself is probably a very valuable thing.

因为即使你从来没有踢别人的屁股，对自己有一定程度的信心可能是一件非常有价值的事情。

But just remembering that this is such a short, tiny moment in your life is just like a huge help.

但只要记住这是你生命中如此短暂、微小的时刻，就像一个巨大的帮助。

I mean, the way you phrased it is exactly right.

我的意思是，你的措辞方式完全正确。

34:12 That’s what it feels like.

这就是感觉。

That these are the people that will be with you for the rest of your life and this is the whole world.

这些人将陪伴你一生，这就是整个世界。

And so that means that there’ll be just tremendous amount of impact if somebody picks on you or if you fall somewhere low in the hierarchy and the status hierarchy of this high school, that means you’ll be low in the status hierarchy of the world and you’re fucked for the rest of your life.

因此，这意味着，如果有人欺负你，或者如果你在这所高中的等级制度和地位等级中处于较低的位置，那将会产生巨大的影响，这意味着你将在世界的地位等级中处于较低的位置，并且你的余生都会被操蛋。

34:39 And that carries a tremendous amount of weight.

这承载着巨大的重量。

It’s just why psychologically it’s extremely difficult to be…

这就是为什么从心理上来说，这是极其困难的……

I think it’s understated often by parents, by society, how difficult it is to be a high schooler, how difficult psychologically it is, how it actually makes sense that some people would suffer from depression and be on the verge of suicide; is very, very difficult.

我认为父母和社会经常低估了作为一名高中生有多么困难，心理上有多么困难，以及为什么有些人会患上抑郁症并处于自杀边缘的事实。是非常非常困难的。

Yeah, I think it’s even…

是的，我认为这甚至是……

35:01 People always say, “Back in my day,” blah blah blah.

人们总是说，“回到我的时代”，等等等等。

I think it’s genuinely harder today than it’s ever been in the sense that when I was a kid, there was a qualification to people.

我认为今天确实比以往任何时候都更加困难，因为当我还是个孩子的时候，人们是有资格的。

Meaning, this is a cool guy, this is not a cool guy.

意思是，这是一个很酷的人，这不是一个很酷的人。

35:15 Today, there’s a quantification of people.

今天，人们已经被量化了。

You have 32,514 people following you, you have 12.

您有 32,514 人关注您，您有 12 人。

The people can visually…

人们可以直观地...

They can inspect your exact social value on whatever platform you’re on.

他们可以在您所在的任何平台上检查您的确切社交价值。

And that has to be just so much harder.

而这一定要困难得多。

35:31 And I can imagine that there’s a lot of just so much weight to put on that, that it’s just…

我可以想象，有很多太多的负担要放在这上面，这只是......

it feels probably way worse and way more damning to be uncool because you have an exact number of how uncool you are.

不酷的感觉可能更糟糕、更可怕，因为你知道自己有多不酷。

Yeah.

是的。

35:45 The challenge there.

那里的挑战。

And the task, the quest is to remember that just because your social circle on social media and in high school thinks you’re uncool, it actually might mean you are cool.

我们的任务、追求是要记住，仅仅因为你在社交媒体和高中的社交圈认为你不酷，它实际上可能意味着你很酷。

And you need to find that cool and grow it and let it flourish so that when real life begins, you can fucking come out of the gate firing on all cylinders because-

你需要找到那份酷，培育它，让它蓬勃发展，这样当现实生活开始时，你他妈的就能全速冲出大门，因为——

That’s a great way to put it.

这是一个很好的表达方式。

I think if anything, high school is really bad at picking out the cool people.

我认为，如果说有什么不同的话，那就是高中在挑选优秀人才方面确实很糟糕。

36:16 Whatever the system, the hierarchy that forms, it’s such a basic bitch hierarchy.

无论形成什么系统、等级制度，这都是一个基本的婊子等级制度。

You’re good at very generic shit.

你很擅长非常普通的事情。

That’s how you rise.

这就是你崛起的方式。

Your parents bought you an expensive car.

你的父母给你买了一辆昂贵的汽车。

Expensive car, right?

车很贵吧？

Just-

只是——

Materialistic shit.

物质主义的狗屎。

36:36 Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

It’s a greedy search.

这是一个贪婪的搜索。

36:38 See, they didn’t have a proper search, so they’re just hitting that local optima.

看，他们没有进行适当的搜索，所以他们只是达到了局部最优。

But the…

但是……

36:42 I mean, even the objective function for that greedy search is just a really shitty one, where those people that win the game of high school are very often not going to be the people that win the much more exciting, beautiful game of life.

我的意思是，即使是贪婪搜索的目标函数也只是一个非常糟糕的函数，那些赢得高中游戏的人往往不会成为赢得更令人兴奋、更美丽的人生游戏的人。

So do epic shit and try stuff out.

所以，做史诗般的事情并尝试一些东西。

37:01 The weirdos are the ones that are going to succeed, the weirdos in high school.

怪人就是那些即将成功的人，高中时期的怪人。

Probably because they also get bullied and they get to be tormented more psychologically and get to explore their own mind and think through what it means to be a human being more.

可能是因为他们也受到欺负，他们在心理上受到更多的折磨，并且更多地探索自己的思想，思考作为一个人意味着什么。

37:16 Because if you’re winning in high school, you’re not being challenged, you’re not self-reflecting, you’re not trying shit out.

因为如果你在高中获胜，你就不会受到挑战，你不会自我反省，你也不会尝试去尝试。

So there is some degree to being tormented as long as it doesn’t break you.

所以，只要不让你心碎，就一定程度上会受到折磨。

The porn addiction, that’s another powerful one that I think will probably resonate with a lot of people.

色情成瘾，这是另一种强大的成瘾，我认为可能会引起很多人的共鸣。

And it’s interesting that you say that’s one of the hardest addictions to overcome.

有趣的是，你说这是最难克服的瘾之一。

Let me say it this way, some addictions have a much bigger societal look and porn is just not one of them, which makes it super hard.

让我这么说吧，有些成瘾有更大的社会面貌，而色情片并不是其中之一，这使得它变得非常困难。

37:43 None of your friends are going to cheer you on.

你的朋友都不会为你加油。

If you go on Twitter and say, “I quit porn,” they’re going to be like, “Well, that’s good for you but not everybody…”

如果你在推特上说，“我戒掉色情片了”，他们会说，“好吧，这对你有好处，但不是每个人......”

37:57 No one makes that argument with meth, right?

没有人用冰毒来争论，对吧？

No one’s going to be like, “Well, not everyone has to quit meth, okay.

没有人会说，“好吧，不是每个人都必须戒掉冰毒，好吧。

It’s actually a fine industry and people who are the ones producing it, they’re good also, right?” No one’s going to make that kind of argument.

这实际上是一个很好的行业，生产它的人也很优秀，对吧？”没有人会提出这样的论点。

38:08 Whereas with porn, you’re going to have a whole thing and friends are going to think you’re dumb for doing it or whatever.

而对于色情片，你会拥有一整套东西，朋友们会认为你这样做很愚蠢或者其他什么。

It’s like you have…

就像你有……

It’s a much more difficult one in just like that.

这是一个更加困难的事情。

So it feels accepted.

所以感觉被接受了。

And I think it’s also an addiction you can practice, participate in privately and hide it from the world.

我认为这也是一种你可以练习、私下参与并隐藏起来的瘾。

38:21 There’s certain addictions that are harder to hide from the world for prolonged periods of time.

有些成瘾行为很难长期隐藏在世人面前。

38:31 And porn addiction is probably one you can just have for many years and then it can deepen.

色情成瘾可能会持续很多年，然后就会加深。

That’s probably a serious issue.

这可能是一个严重的问题。

Boy, am I glad I grew up before the internet because porn is so accessible, so easy to go deep into that addiction.

男孩，我很高兴我是在互联网出现之前长大的，因为色情是如此容易获得，很容易让人沉迷其中。

I mean, what can you speak about what impact it had on your life?

我的意思是，您能谈谈它对您的生活产生了什么影响吗？

Maybe some of the low points, but also how to overcome it?

也许有些低谷，又该如何克服呢？

I’d say as far as impact goes is that you will have such a long and broken look at women.

我想说的是，就影响而言，你会对女性有如此漫长而破碎的看法。

38:56 By the very, like I can…

到了最后，我可以……

Again, I’m only speaking from a male’s perspective, that porn in its just most basic thing is that you use another person for your own desire or your own want.

再说一次，我只是从男性的角度来说，色情片最基本的事情就是你利用另一个人来满足你自己的欲望或你自己的需要。

It’s not something that is deeply needed.

这不是非常需要的东西。

There’s no need for porn.

不需要色情片。

It’s purely a want-based activity or a lust, however you want, whatever word you can fill in there.

这纯粹是一种基于欲望的活动或欲望，无论你想要什么，无论你可以在那里填写什么词。

39:28 And it is purely an objectifying activity.

这纯粹是一种客观化活动。

Someone else is on display for your own enjoyment.

别人展示是为了你自己欣赏。

And so I think you carry this around.

所以我认为你随身携带这个。

I do think that the women that I dated during high school or the women after high school and college, I looked at them as a means to an end.

我确实认为，我在高中期间约会的女性或高中和大学毕业后的女性，我将她们视为达到目的的手段。

And I think porn greatly kind of shifted that perspective in my head that I did not give the value that was desired to another person.

我认为色情片极大地改变了我头脑中的观点，即我没有给予另一个人所需的价值。

It really devalues humanity just in general, is my perspective of it.

从我的角度来看，它确实总体上贬低了人类的价值。

And then it makes people into commodities.

然后它把人变成了商品。

And I don’t think people are commodities.

我不认为人是商品。

I think everyone has value.

我认为每个人都有价值。

40:02 And so during that, for me that’s like the great effect of porn, is that it’s just consumerism gone wild or materialism maybe, you could ask or argue, gone wild.

所以在那段时间里，对我来说，这就像色情片的巨大影响，就是消费主义变得疯狂，或者物质主义也许，你可能会问或争论，变得疯狂。

And it’s extremely hard to quit, just like you said, because I can look at porn and then I can go out to lunch.

就像你说的，戒烟非常困难，因为我可以看色情片，然后我可以出去吃午饭。

40:21 No one’s going to know.

没有人会知道。

No one’s going to have any ideas.

没有人会有任何想法。

It’s a very private, it can be very short session.

这是一次非常私密的会议，会议时间可能很短。

It doesn’t have to be something that takes…

它不一定是需要......

You can’t take acid then go out to lunch, right?

你不能吃酸然后出去吃午饭，对吧？

Your whole day is going to be a very different day.

你的这一天将会是非常不同的一天。

And so it’s very quick, easy, accessible.

所以它非常快速、简单、方便。

40:38 And then obviously there’s all the science and statistics, like men make worse decisions for some period of time after looking or being exposed to sexualized images.

显然，还有所有的科学和统计数据，比如男性在观看或接触色情图像后的一段时间内会做出更糟糕的决定。

There’s the whole dopamine effect that’s just like you constantly need more and more dopamine.

这就是多巴胺效应，就像你不断需要越来越多的多巴胺一样。

That’s why people typically don’t just watch five minutes of porn and call it a day.

这就是为什么人们通常不会只看五分钟的色情片就结束了。

There’s like the hundred tab joke that’s always made on the internet.

就像互联网上经常流传的“一百张标签”笑话一样。

It’s because it’s just this constant dopamine cycle you’re constantly doing.

这是因为你一直在进行这种持续的多巴胺循环。

41:01 And all that stuff is great to say.

所有这些都很好说。

And I’m sure statistics and science and all that stuff is really great arguments for some amount of people.

我确信统计数据和科学以及所有这些东西对于某些人来说确实是很好的论据。

But for me it just comes down to, is it really a good thing to do?

但对我来说，这只是归结为，这真的是一件好事吗？

Is it really actually something we want, is to value people in such a profane or just disregarding way?

以如此亵渎或无视的方式来重视人们，这真的是我们想要的吗？

I just really think it’s just bad for the soul.

我真的认为这对灵魂有害。

Even if all the stats said it was great for you, I still say it’s actually bad.

即使所有统计数据都表明这对你来说很好，但我仍然说它实际上很糟糕。

Yeah.

是的。

41:29 You have to look at the long-term big picture, psychological impact it has on your relationships with human beings in general.

你必须着眼于长期的大局，以及它对你与人类关系的总体心理影响。

That’s my, more generally than just porn, my problem with the quote, unquote, “sort of manosphere”, is I think sleeping with a bunch of women is great, wonderful.

这就是我的问题，不仅仅是色情片，我对引用的问题，不引用，“有点马诺圈”，是我认为和一群女人一起睡觉是伟大的，美妙的。

But the problem is making that the primary objective of your life, similar with porn, is you devalue one of the most awesome things, which is intimacy.

但问题是，你生活的主要目标，就像色情片一样，是你贬低最棒的事情之一，那就是亲密。

That’s true for deep friendship, that’s true for relationships.

对于深厚的友谊来说是如此，对于人际关系来说也是如此。

42:06 And I think porn does that in its purest, darkest form, which is: the thing that matters is the sex, not the deep connection with another human being.

我认为色情片以最纯粹、最黑暗的形式做到了这一点，那就是：重要的是性，而不是与另一个人的深层联系。

And I think, again, going back to high school and the manosphere, the objective function if it’s to get laid, which helps with status and confidence and all…

我想，再次回到高中和马诺圈，目标函数如果是为了上床，这有助于地位和信心等等……

42:28 All that is wonderful, I think.

我想这一切都很棒。

Again, can be an addiction.

再说一次，可能会让人上瘾。

But the thing that’s even more awesome for a lot of people is a deep friendship or deep intimacy with a romantic partner.

但对很多人来说，更令人敬畏的是与浪漫伴侣的深厚友谊或深厚亲密关系。

That’s also fucking awesome, and both of those are great.

这也太棒了，两者都很棒。

It’s objectively better to have…

客观上更好的是……

42:45 I would say that there’s no universe that exists or there should be no argument possible that exists that a guy who has meaningless sex has a better or a more meaningful life than, say, me and my wife who’ve been together for 15 years.

我想说，不存在任何宇宙，也不应该存在任何争论，认为一个进行无意义性行为的人比我和我已经在一起 15 年的妻子拥有更好或更有意义的生活。

42:58 We have a very…

我们有一个非常…

I can depend on her in all circumstances.

在任何情况下我都可以依靠她。

Whereas if you live that other life, it sure could be…

然而，如果你过着另一种生活，那肯定可能是……

It could feel great, but there’s no meaning to it.

感觉可能很棒，但没有任何意义。

There’s no actual real value to it.

它没有实际的价值。

That’s absolutely correct.

这是完全正确的。

43:10 I do think that getting laid can have a tremendous positive impact on the confidence of a young man.

我确实认为上床会对年轻人的自信心产生巨大的积极影响。

I think just there’s a certain number of sexual partners from which you can collect a lot of data and it can free you about, like not to be so nervous about the opposite sex, not to be so nervous about human interaction.

我认为只要有一定数量的性伴侣，你就可以从中收集大量数据，这可以让你解放出来，比如不要对异性那么紧张，不要对人际互动那么紧张。

43:34 And that will allow you to see the world more clearly and to actually find that one partner with whom you can be deeply intimate with.

这将使你更清楚地看到世界，并真正找到一位可以与你深深亲密的合作伙伴。

Sometimes the nervousness around this societally constructed value in getting laid can cloud your judgment.

有时，围绕这种社会建构的上床价值的紧张情绪可能会影响你的判断。

43:54 And if you just release that by getting laid a bunch of times, then you could see the world clearly that getting laid is not nearly as important as you said, as finding the right human, including I should put in that pile, not just a romantic partner, but friendships, deep lasting friendships.

如果你只是通过上床几次来释放它，那么你可以清楚地看到世界，上床并不像你说的那么重要，重要的是找到合适的人，包括我应该放在那堆里，不仅仅是一个浪漫的伴侣，而是友谊，深厚持久的友谊。

Well, I mean I think you’re right that our society puts a lot of emphasis on getting laid.

嗯，我的意思是，我认为你是对的，我们的社会非常重视上床。

44:14 And I’m sure that’s true among any group of males throughout any point in history.

我确信，在历史上的任何时刻，任何男性群体都是如此。

I’m sure that’s a very common joke that’s never actually never stopped at any point.

我确信这是一个非常常见的笑话，实际上从来没有停止过。

So I’m sure that exists but…

所以我确信这种情况存在，但是……

And there’s probably some truth to the sense that after you’ve…

在你……之后，这种感觉可能是有一定道理的。

Who was it?

是谁？

Jim Carrey.

金·凯瑞.

“I hope that everyone can get rich so they realize that money solves none of your problems.” The realization that this thing that society told you is hyper important is actually not the important part.

“我希望每个人都能致富，这样他们就会意识到金钱并不能解决你的任何问题。”意识到社会告诉你的这件事非常重要，实际上并不是重要的部分。

It is a very important…

这是一个非常重要的…

44:45 It’s a great sign that your relationship is healthy.

这是你们的关系健康的一个很好的迹象。

Like if me and my wife were to have no sex at all for months on end, something’s gone wrong, which means what…

就像如果我和我的妻子连续几个月没有发生性行为，就会出现问题，这意味着......

we are no longer on the same plane.

我们不再在同一架飞机上。

But it’s not also a good identifier.

但它也不是一个好的标识符。

Just because you’re having a lot of sex, it doesn’t mean you’re having a good relationship.

仅仅因为你们有很多性行为，并不意味着你们的关系很好。

45:03 And so it’s like a unique…

所以它就像一个独特的......

I forget the right term here, but it’s a unique way at looking at the problems.

我忘记了这里的正确术语，但这是看待问题的独特方式。

And our society puts so much emphasis.

我们的社会非常重视。

And maybe that’s why porn was so hard to quit, but my guess is it’s just all the dopamine effect that it is.

也许这就是为什么色情片如此难以戒掉的原因，但我猜这只是它的多巴胺效应。

45:21 But for me, the most important part and the thing that actually has real reward is having that…

但对我来说，最重要的部分和真正有真正回报的事情是……

having just my wife.

只有我的妻子。

I do not look at…

我不看……

I desperately try not to look at any other woman.

我拼命地试着不看任何其他女人。

I’m hopefully not going to get caught…

我希望不会被抓住……

Mark Zuckerberged at the White House like that.

马克·扎克伯格就是这样在白宫的。

45:37 I don’t look at porn.

我不看色情片。

My wife has complete confidence in me that there is not going to be a situation in which she has to question me in any kind of sense.

我的妻子对我完全有信心，她不会在任何情况下质疑我。

And that builds a much more deeply, I would argue, a very deep relationship because the trust is that much bigger.

我认为，这会建立一种更深厚的关系，因为信任更大。

I think the deepness of the relationship is probably proportional to the trust you have in each other.

我认为关系的深度可能与你们对彼此的信任成正比。

It’s very hard to have a deep relationship with no trust.

如果没有信任，很难建立深厚的关系。

Yeah.

是的。

45:59 And a probably a prerequisite, maybe a component of trust is vulnerability to where you take the leap of being vulnerable with another human being.

也许信任的一个先决条件，也许是信任的一个组成部分，就是你在与另一个人相处时表现出脆弱的程度。

And that vulnerability when reciprocated builds this really strong trust and it’s a beautiful thing.

当这种脆弱性得到回报时，就会建立起真正牢固的信任，这是一件美好的事情。

Yeah.

是的。

46:20 I personally just…

我个人只是……

Given my position, that’s even more challenging, being vulnerable with the world and there’s a bunch of people out there that want to hurt you for it, but I think it’s worthwhile anyway to be vulnerable.

考虑到我的立场，这更具挑战性，在这个世界上保持脆弱，还有很多人想因此伤害你，但我认为无论如何保持脆弱是值得的。

It’s always worth it.

这总是值得的。

46:36 The risk is always worth it in some sense.

从某种意义上来说，冒险总是值得的。

Obviously, everyone has a different life they have to filter through their actions with, right?

显然，每个人都有不同的生活，他们必须通过自己的行为来过滤，对吧？

Because the person that has no, say, social following or anything, their risk reward profile could just be local impact, which could be just as damning or harming to them.

因为那些没有社会追随者或任何东西的人，他们的风险回报状况可能只是局部影响，这可能对他们同样有害或有害。

46:54 And so it’s always worth the risk though, in my personal opinion, because finding my wife has been obviously the most impactful or changing thing in my life.

因此，在我个人看来，冒险总是值得的，因为找到我的妻子显然是我一生中最有影响力或改变的事情。

Or second most, I’d argue that one night with God would probably be the most impactful thing that led to everything else, but then the wife would be the next most impactful.

或者第二个，我认为与上帝共度一晚可能是导致其他一切最有影响力的事情，但妻子将是第二个最有影响力的事情。

I mean, I’m cleaning up after myself and stuff now.

我的意思是，我现在正在清理自己和其他东西。

Changed man.

变了个人。

I’m a changed man.

我变了一个人。

Can we try to reverse engineer that moment of you finding God.

我们可以尝试逆向工程你找到上帝的那一刻吗？

47:17 What is it at 19?

19岁是什么日子？

Because it feels like that was a big leap for you to escape the pain, to escape the addiction or the beginning of that journey.

因为感觉这对你来说是一个巨大的飞跃，让你摆脱了痛苦、摆脱了毒瘾或那段旅程的开始。

What do you think happened there?

你认为那里发生了什么？

I think it just felt like I just…

我想我只是感觉……

47:37 There was no line that I wasn’t willing to cross.

没有什么界限是我不愿意跨越的。

Everything was fine and just like…

一切都很好，就像……

It just all of a sudden, just in that moment, it’s just like I had I guess some sort of deep fear and understanding I am going down a path.

突然之间，就在那一刻，就像我有某种深深的恐惧和理解，我正在走上一条路。

Is this really the path you want to go down?

这真的是你想要走的路吗？

47:58 And I don’t know what the result of that path would be or anything like that.

我不知道这条路的结果是什么或类似的事情。

I don’t tend to speculate on things I don’t understand.

我不倾向于猜测我不理解的事情。

I just know that in that moment I had the option and I just chose…

我只知道在那一刻我有选择，我只是选择了……

I didn’t want it anymore.

我不再想要它了。

Right?

正确的？

48:13 It’s kind of mixed in this whole thing where it’s just like I had no value.

它有点混合在整个事情中，就像我没有价值一样。

I wrapped up all my meaning or value in having sex or getting laid, I had…

我把所有的意义或价值都包裹在做爱或上床中，我……

All that stuff, all the things we just talked about, that was where all my worth was.

所有这些东西，所有我们刚才谈论的东西，那就是我所有的价值所在。

And that is just such a terrible place to have your worth.

那是一个让你无法发挥自己价值的地方。

48:28 And it was just all came to a point.

一切都到了一个点。

And I can’t tell you the day of the week, I can’t tell you anything other than it was nighttime and I was in South Hedges in Montana State University, go Bobcats, that’s about…

我不能告诉你星期几，我不能告诉你除了那是晚上之外的任何事情，我在蒙大拿州立大学的南树篱，去山猫队，那是关于……

Yeah, that’s the sign that we do at football games.

是的，这就是我们在足球比赛中所做的标志。

Don’t worry about it.

不用担心。

But that’s all I can really tell you because that night was no more or less special than some other night.

但这就是我真正能告诉你的，因为那个夜晚并不比其他夜晚更特别或更不特别。

It’s just the specialness was I got at least a chance to make a choice.

特殊之处在于我至少有机会做出选择。

Because you find in that advice that you can give to others who are probably…

因为你发现你可以向其他可能……的人提供建议。

48:58 There’s probably just an endless amount of people that are struggling with porn addiction now, young people.

现在可能有无数的人在与色情成瘾作斗争，年轻人。

What advice could you give to them?

您能给他们什么建议？

How to overcome it?

如何克服呢？

For me to overcome it, I had to realize that I was taking something away from my future wife.

为了克服它，我必须意识到我正在从我未来的妻子那里夺走一些东西。

49:15 Some people would be like, “Oh, well, once you get a girlfriend then you can stop.” And it’s just like, “No, because you never stopped the problem.” You don’t stop a problem by replacing it.

有些人会说，“哦，好吧，一旦你有了女朋友，你就可以停下来了。”就像，“不，因为你从来没有停止过这个问题。”更换问题并不能解决问题。

And so I didn’t have a girlfriend, I didn’t have all that.

所以我没有女朋友，我没有这一切。

I just realized that I was truly taking away from something from my future wife.

我刚刚意识到我确实从我未来的妻子那里夺走了一些东西。

And I didn’t even know my current wife at that time.

而且当时我什至不认识我现在的妻子。

She was not in the picture.

照片中没有她。

I’m not even sure if she was at Montana State University at that point.

我什至不确定她当时是否在蒙大拿州立大学。

49:43 And so it’s just that’s…

所以这就是……

Once I made that realization, I think it went from my head to my heart, which they say is the greatest distance in the universe.

一旦我意识到这一点，我想它就从我的头脑到了我的心，他们说这是宇宙中最远的距离。

I finally got it.

我终于明白了。

And that’s really where things change.

这确实是事情发生变化的地方。

49:59 The ability to say like what’s going to help you change and all that, I don’t know if there’s…

有能力说什么可以帮助你改变等等，我不知道是否有……

I don’t think there’s silver bullets, right?

我认为没有灵丹妙药，对吗？

If someone could offer you a drug…

如果有人可以给你提供药物……

I forget who says this phrase, but there’s this really interesting phrase that goes something like, he was a very depressed man and he was struggling with suicide and he writes about this in this memoir.

我忘记这句话是谁说的，但是有一个非常有趣的短语，大概是这样的，他是一个非常抑郁的人，他正在与自杀作斗争，他在这本回忆录中写下了这一点。

50:18 And he goes to these doctors and the doctors effectively say, “Well, here’s antidepressants, it’s going to help you.” And he says that, “Well, the problem was is that scientists told me that I could just touch my brain and make myself happy, and that’s it.

他去找这些医生，医生们有效地说，“好吧，这里有抗抑郁药，它会对你有帮助。”他说，“嗯，问题是科学家告诉我，我可以触摸我的大脑，让自己快乐，就是这样。

They could reach in, they could configure some stuff and I’ll be happy.” He’s like, “For me, it was a lot like going out into a field and being able to take a drug to see the rain.

他们可以介入，可以配置一些东西，我会很高兴。”他说，“对我来说，这很像走进田野，服用药物就能看到下雨。

I could look out, see the rain, it would fall down, it’d be silvery, it’d be beautiful, but all the crop would still die because there’s not actually any rain.

我可以向外看，看到雨，它会落下来，它会是银色的，它会很美丽，但所有的庄稼仍然会死，因为实际上没有下雨。

I had to discover how to be happy myself.”

我必须找到让自己快乐的方法。”

50:48 And so for me, it’s like the reason why I looked at porn is because I was unhappy.

所以对我来说，就像我看色情片的原因是因为我不快乐。

I was trying to find meaning.

我试图寻找意义。

I was trying to find value in something, right?

我试图找到某件事的价值，对吗？

Something that was supposed to finally give me this ultimate satisfaction.

本来应该最终给我带来终极满足的东西。

And it just does not, no matter how hard, and no matter how much you think it will, there is no escapade, there is no pornography that will ever give you that satisfaction you’re looking for.

但它就是不会，无论多么困难，无论你多么认为它会，没有任何越轨行为，没有任何色情内容能给你你所寻求的满足感。

That’s the reason why it’s addicting.

这就是它让人上瘾的原因。

And that’s my call to why you shouldn’t do it, but how to get out of it, I only got out of it by realizing.

这就是我对为什么你不应该这样做的呼吁，但如何摆脱它，我只是通过意识到才摆脱它。

I think that’s really brilliantly described.

我认为这描述得非常精彩。

51:20 You knew that this thing you’re doing is preventing you from finding your future wife and future wife could mean more even broadly, this path to a flourishing, to a beautiful life.

你知道你正在做的这件事会阻止你找到未来的妻子，而未来的妻子可能更广泛地意味着这条通往繁荣、美好生活的道路。

51:43 I think there’s a lot of choices we make that are just preventing us from opening the door to whatever future.

我认为我们做出的很多选择只会阻止我们打开通向未来的大门。

I think what’s really nice to do is to imagine, just like we said with high school, that there are a bunch of trajectories in life where you’ll be truly happy and you need to construct your life in a way where you have the chance to travel down those paths.

我认为真正好的做法是想象，就像我们在高中时所说的那样，生活中有很多轨迹会让你真正快乐，你需要以一种有机会沿着这些路径行走的方式构建你的生活。

And there’s a bunch of addictions, there’s a bunch of choices that prevent us from traveling down those paths.

有很多上瘾，有很多选择阻止我们走上这些道路。

52:12 So just believe that you’re going to have an awesome life and remove from your life the things that are preventing you from walking down that path, which is essentially what you did.

因此，只要相信你将拥有美好的生活，并从你的生活中消除那些阻碍你走这条路的东西，这本质上就是你所做的。

It’s a leap of faith that if you let go of porn, that a better life is waiting for you on the other end.

这是一种信念的飞跃，如果你放弃色情，更好的生活就在另一端等着你。

Yeah.

是的。

52:32 I definitely can’t say how long it will take, a better life.

我绝对不能说需要多长时间，更好的生活。

But for me, there’s no way in the universe I could have had the relationship that I have without first making those steps because I couldn’t value my wife in the way that was proper for who she was.

但对我来说，如果不先采取这些步骤，我就不可能拥有现在的关系，因为我无法以适合我妻子的方式来评价她。

I would have valued her through the index or the lens that I currently was looking through.

我会通过我目前正在观察的索引或镜头来评价她。

Got to ask.

得问一下。

52:58 So I’ve never done meth.

所以我从来没有吸过冰毒。

I’ve never done meth.

我从来没有做过冰毒。

That was a great segue by the way.

顺便说一句，这是一个很棒的转场。

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

53:05 I don’t know what the fuck I’m doing, honestly with this interviewing thing.

老实说，我不知道我他妈的在做什么，接受采访。

But yeah, meth and LSD…

但是，是的，冰毒和LSD……

I did ayahuasca.

我做了死藤水。

I did shrooms a bunch of times.

我做过很多次蘑菇。

And this topic, I should say that there’s a lot of, on Twitter and in the tech community in general, people speaking negatively about ayahuasca and some positively.

对于这个话题，我应该说，在 Twitter 上和整个科技社区中，有很多人对死藤水持负面言论，也有一些人持积极态度。

I think it’s such a roll of the dice.

我认为这就是掷骰子。

53:34 I had incredible experiences, but I don’t think I want to recommend it to anyone.

我有过令人难以置信的经历，但我想我不想把它推荐给任何人。

It’s a risk, it’s a serious risk.

这是一个风险，这是一个严重的风险。

It really is a roll of the dice that you could meet your demons and they could destroy you or you can meet your demons and let go of them.

这真的是掷骰子，你可能会遇到你的恶魔，他们可能会摧毁你，或者你可能会遇到你的恶魔并释放它们。

Or you could have experiences like I did, which is never…

或者你可能有像我一样的经历，这从来都不是……

Apparently I don’t have demons.

看来我没有恶魔。

I’m pretty sure they’re somewhere in the basement, but I’ve never met them on drugs.

我很确定他们在地下室的某个地方，但我从未在吸毒时见过他们。

53:58 I’m always really happy.

我总是很高兴。

I’m happy drunk.

我醉得很开心。

I’m super happy on ayahuasca, just full of love.

我对死藤水非常满意，充满了爱。

I don’t understand, I don’t understand where the demons are, but that’s my biochemistry, whatever that is.

我不明白，我不明白恶魔在哪里，但这就是我的生物化学，不管那是什么。

54:10 And for some others, one trip could be amazing and the next one could just completely destroy you and wreck your life.

对于另一些人来说，一次旅行可能令人惊叹，而下一次旅行可能会彻底摧毁你并毁掉你的生活。

So I don’t know what the recommendation from that is, maybe avoid it, but then all of us die and life…

所以我不知道这的建议是什么，也许避免它，但然后我们所有人都会死而生......

54:25 I tend to lean into adventure but drugs is…

我倾向于冒险，但毒品是……

If you fuck with the biochemistry of your brain, you can really destroy yourself in a way that it’s going to torment you.

如果你搞砸了你大脑的生物化学，你真的会以一种折磨你的方式摧毁你自己。

So I would generally recommend that people avoid drugs altogether, probably, unless you’re a crazy motherfucker.

所以我一般会建议人们完全避免吸毒，除非你是个疯狂的混蛋。

Hunter S.

亨特·S。

Thompson.

汤普森.

What an intro to this topic.

这是对这个主题的介绍。

I’m sorry.

对不起。

54:54 What’s meth like?

冰毒是什么样的？

That’s a great intro.

这是一个很棒的介绍。

54:57 I like…

我喜欢……

You are very correct in the sense that there is, at least when it comes to hallucinogens, there is a wild variance to what you’re going to experience.

从某种意义上说，你是非常正确的，至少在致幻剂方面，你将经历的事情存在很大的差异。

And there is no guarantee, there’s no…

没有保证，没有……

Just because you buy the product, it doesn’t mean you’re going to have a good time, right?

仅仅因为您购买了该产品，并不意味着您会玩得很开心，对吗？

There’s a lot of…

有很多……

55:14 Personally, I find that stuff to be very…

就我个人而言，我发现这些东西非常……

I believe in the spiritual realm, right?

我相信精神领域，对吗？

I believe demons and angels exist.

我相信恶魔和天使是存在的。

I believe God exists.

我相信上帝存在。

And that whole realm is like…

整个领域就像……

I don’t know what it opens you up to, but it’s much, much different experience.

我不知道它会给你带来什么，但这是非常非常不同的体验。

Now, some people will be like, “Oh, it’s just a bunch of chemicals in your brain.

现在，有些人会说，“哦，这只是你大脑中的一堆化学物质。

They all get mixed up.

他们都搞混了。

LSD just takes all of your pathways and they all go…

LSD 会占据你所有的路径，然后它们都会消失……

They all get kind of scrambled up in your brain.”

它们都会在你的大脑中混乱起来。”

55:37 And it’s just like, “Yeah, the experiences are profound.” I had some really bizarre, very cool, very awful…

就像，“是的，这些经历是深刻的。”我有一些非常奇怪的、非常酷的、非常可怕的……

I’ve had all the experiences in them all.

我有过所有这些经历。

I can just tell you that I personally always say the same thing.

我只能告诉你，我个人总是说同样的话。

It’s like, choices that I made I can never take back.

就像，我做出的选择永远无法收回。

I would never take that away from myself because I don’t know if I would be who I am today without all those experiences going up to it.

我永远不会把它从自己身上夺走，因为我不知道如果没有这些经历，我是否会成为今天的我。

55:58 But if you have not had that experience, I’m on your team, or at least partially on your team, maybe more severely, I don’t think you need those experiences.

但如果你没有这样的经验，我在你的团队中，或者至少部分在你的团队中，也许更严重的是，我认为你不需要这些经验。

I don’t think they’re going to…

我不认为他们会……

You don’t have to put yourself through that to make a good decisions or to realize that people have value, right?

你不必让自己经历这些才能做出正确的决定或意识到人们的价值，对吗？

You don’t have to do that.

你不必这样做。

56:16 So as far as what is meth like?

那么冰毒到底是什么样的呢？

Meth is like…

冰毒就像……

If you’ve ever done cocaine, cocaine starts off with like a 15-minute dance party.

如果您吸食过可卡因，那么可卡因的开始就像一场 15 分钟的舞会。

Just…

只是……

It’s just so intense.

真是太激烈了。

It’s so great.

太棒了。

And then it just followed up with like a five hour…

然后就持续了大约五个小时……

just feeling wiggly, right?

只是感觉摇摆不定，对吗？

I don’t know how else to describe it.

我不知道还能怎么形容。

Meth is like that except for I didn’t get as much dance party or any dance party, but instead I just got that part for like 12 hours.

冰毒就是这样，除了我没有参加那么多的舞会或任何舞会，但我只参加了大约 12 个小时的那部分。

Yeah.

是的。

So did a lot of skateboarding, did a lot of running around, staying all night.

于是，我玩了很多滑板，跑了很多遍，整晚都待在那里。

Would you say it’s a pleasant feeling or is it more like an escape from the loneliness of life?

你会说这是一种愉快的感觉还是更像是一种逃避生活孤独的感觉？

56:46 Is it pleasant or negative in the actual moment?

当下的心情是愉快的还是消极的？

Not the consequences but in the moment.

不是后果，而是当下。

So I mean, this is just a very interesting kind of area, which is that not…

所以我的意思是，这只是一个非常有趣的领域，而不是……

57:01 Universally, you can’t say that.

普遍来说，你不能这么说。

Often you’ll find that there’s kind of these two groups of drug addicts.

通常你会发现有这两类吸毒者。

There’s those that like the opioids and those that like the uppers.

有些人喜欢阿片类药物，有些人喜欢鞋面。

They typically don’t like…

他们通常不喜欢……

There’s very few people in the drug world that do both.

毒品界很少有人能同时做到这两点。

They’re really just like find their side and they go for it.

他们真的很想找到自己的立场并为之奋斗。

57:25 So is meth a thing that everybody’s going to enjoy?

那么冰毒是每个人都会喜欢的东西吗？

Well, categorically, as you can see, and just how people experience drug addiction, no.

嗯，正如你所看到的，人们是如何经历毒瘾的，绝对不是。

But for me it’s just I had a really…

但对我来说，这只是我真的……

It kind of feeds into the ADHD nature of this…

它有点融入了这种多动症的本质……

Because you know you’re kind of high energy, you’re like always in the moment.

因为你知道自己精力充沛，总是活在当下。

So it’s just like you’re in the moment, but it’s just like, “Oh, I’m in the moment!” Everything’s just so intense!

所以就像你就在当下，但就像，“哦，我就在当下！”一切都是那么激烈！

57:48 You just want to really be in the moment.

你只想真正活在当下。

And so it’s just experiencing that constantly.

所以它只是不断地经历。

And so was that great?

那很棒吗？

Well, some people…

嗯，有些人……

My wife always tells me this, being nervous or…

我妻子总是告诉我这个，因为紧张或者……

I forget, the anxiety of a situation can also be the same thing as like thrill.

我忘记了，某种情况下的焦虑也可以和兴奋一样。

I forget the exact way.

具体方法我忘记了。

She’s probably super disappointed that I messed this up.

她可能对我搞砸了这件事感到非常失望。

58:10 But it’s like you could perceive those two experiences in very different lights.

但这就像你可以从非常不同的角度来感知这两种体验。

Some people get in front of a crowd and it’s thrilling.

有些人出现在人群面前，这很令人兴奋。

Some people get in front of it and it’s just the worst experience of their lifetime.

有些人面对它，这只是他们一生中最糟糕的经历。

They would actually literally rather die, which is a crazy thing to think about than stand up and speak.

他们实际上宁愿死，这比站起来说话更疯狂。

58:25 And so for me, meth was that thrilling side, but at the same time, it still didn’t quite give me that thing I wanted, whatever I was looking for.

所以对我来说，冰毒是令人兴奋的一面，但与此同时，它仍然没有完全给我我想要的东西，无论我在寻找什么。

I’d use it to help try to get that thing I want, but it was never giving me that thing I wanted.

我会用它来帮助尝试得到我想要的东西，但它从来没有给我我想要的东西。

Yeah.

是的。

58:43 For me, I’ve had all really wonderful experiences.

对我来说，我经历过所有非常美妙的经历。

Do not recommend them.

不要推荐他们。

But like with shroom-

但就像蘑菇一样——

That’s a YouTube policy by the way that you have to say, “By the way, do whatever you do, do not do a illegal activity.”

顺便说一句，这是 YouTube 的一项政策，你必须说：“顺便说一句，无论你做什么，都不要从事非法活动。”

I-

我-

But I had great experiences, but whatever you do, don’t do it.

但我有过很棒的经历，但无论你做什么，都不要这样做。

Mr. ThePrimeagen, I have no master.

ThePrimeagen先生，我没有主人。

58:57 I don’t have YouTube or whatever.

我没有 YouTube 之类的。

I’ll say whatever the fuck I want.

我他妈想说什么就说什么。

I’m just-

我只是——

But seriously, you do.

但说真的，你确实这么做了。

…

……

59:10 kind…

善良…

No.

不。

No, I don’t give a shit about YouTube or anybody, honestly.

不，老实说，我根本不在乎 YouTube 或任何人。

I’m just careful about the words I say because just because I had positive experiences, I don’t want young people listening to this think they should try the experience.

我只是对自己所说的话很谨慎，因为仅仅因为我有过积极的经历，我不希望年轻人听到这些就认为他们应该尝试这种经历。

I think the much more powerful message is that life is awesome even without that.

我认为更强有力的信息是，即使没有这些，生活也很棒。

That’s something I definitely experiment with on the alcohol side.

这绝对是我在酒精方面尝试过的东西。

59:34 So for me, I’m an introvert.

所以对我来说，我是一个内向的人。

I’m afraid of the world.

我害怕这个世界。

Social interaction fills me with anxiety.

社交互动让我充满焦虑。

Alcohol is definitely a thing that helps with that sometimes, but I think honestly it’s not even the alcohol, it’s having to do something while a person is talking to me.

有时酒精确实是有帮助的，但老实说，这甚至不是酒精，而是当一个人跟我说话时必须做点什么。

I could just drink a liquid.

我只能喝液体。

“Yeah.

是的。

Mm-hmm.” There’s a social thing.

嗯嗯。”有一个社交的事情。

With a beer, it’s like…

喝了一杯啤酒，就像……

“Yeah.

是的。

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Yeah, we’re having fun.” And I think it’s…

是的，我们玩得很开心。”我认为这是……

1:00:02 For me, it works the same as…

对我来说，它的作用与...相同

If the liquid actually looks like alcohol, it does the same purpose often because alcohol…

如果液体实际上看起来像酒精，它通常会起到同样的作用，因为酒精......

If you have a whiskey or a beer looking thing, it kind of sends a signal that we should be having fun.

如果你有威士忌或啤酒的东西，它会发出一个信号，表明我们应该玩得很开心。

So we’re socializing, right?

所以我们正在社交，对吧？

We’re fucking getting crazy.

我们他妈快疯了。

And then that mean…

然后这意味着……

1:00:24 You don’t actually need the alcohol.

你实际上并不需要酒精。

You can get fucking crazy without the alcohol substance, but there is some kind of social signaling that happens when you have a drink in your hand.

如果没有酒精物质，你可能会发疯，但当你手里拿着饮料时，会发生某种社交信号。

So I’ve been to get-togethers where I’m not drinking, but just doing a fake drink situation and I can also have fun.

所以我参加聚会时我不喝酒，只是假装喝酒，我也能玩得很开心。

So I’ve been…

所以我一直...

1:00:47 But that said, traveling across the world, there are times when you get to be able to down a bottle of vodka.

但话虽如此，在环游世界时，有时您还是能够喝下一瓶伏特加。

That’s very essential for my line of work, but that’s almost like a cultural experience versus a necessary component of a successful social interaction and one that brings you happiness.

这对我的工作来说非常重要，但这几乎就像一种文化体验，而不是成功的社交互动和给你带来快乐的必要组成部分。

1:01:05 So not drinking…

所以不喝酒...

I think you can have fun and not drink too.

我觉得你可以玩得开心，但不要喝酒。

So all of this…

所以这一切……

Man, I’m so careful saying drugs have had a good effect on my life because I think for most people, no, for majority of people, they will in the long term have a negative effect.

伙计，我很谨慎地说毒品对我的生活产生了良好的影响，因为我认为对于大多数人来说，不，对于大多数人来说，从长远来看，它们会产生负面影响。

So I think if you were to choose one or the other, just no drugs and no drinking means one day you can be the President of the United States kids.

所以我认为，如果你要选择其中之一，只要不吸毒、不喝酒，就意味着有一天你可以成为美国孩子们的总统。

And I should say…

我应该说……

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

That is-

那就是——

That means Diet Coke-

这意味着健怡可乐——

…

……

1:01:43 his funniest line.

他最有趣的台词。

Diet Coke is great.

健怡可乐很棒。

That’s his funniest line, which is, “You would hate me if I drank.” Which I just like…

这是他最有趣的台词，“如果我喝酒你就会恨我。”我就是喜欢……

1:01:45 To me, that tickles me to no end.

对我来说，这让我很痒。

Just like, “Oh my gosh, that is such a funny line.”

就像，“天哪，这句话真有趣。”

Self-awareness and humor is wonderful there, but yeah.

自我意识和幽默感很棒，但是是的。

But I am on your team.

但我在你的团队里。

1:01:55 All of the reasons why I used drugs and all that, it’s some level of escapism.

我吸毒的所有原因都是某种程度的逃避现实。

I’m sure that’s like…

我确信那就像……

would be the archetype or the box I’d put that into or the pursuit of trying to feel something that cannot come from them.

将是我将其放入的原型或盒子，或追求尝试感受无法来自他们的东西。

1:02:09 It’s like trying to find meaning in your job.

这就像试图寻找工作的意义一样。

You can find satisfaction in what you do.

你可以从你所做的事情中找到满足感。

That is a very good thing.

这是一件非常好的事情。

You can find satisfaction and be happy with what you’ve created.

您可以对自己所创造的东西感到满足和高兴。

You can be thrilled by the experience, but you cannot find…

你可能会对这种经历感到兴奋，但你找不到……

I doubt you can find purpose.

我怀疑你能否找到目标。

Maybe some people in specific jobs.

也许有些人从事特定的工作。

1:02:26 This obviously have very broad strokes, I’m painting with.

这显然有非常广泛的笔触，我正在用它来绘画。

Like if you’re an EMT and you save someone’s life, maybe there can be purpose in that whole experience, right?

就像如果你是一名急救人员并且你拯救了某人的生命，也许整个经历都是有目的的，对吗？

So I’m not saying all things, but as programming goes, most programmers, you cannot just simply find your purpose.

所以我并不是说所有的事情，但随着编程的发展，大多数程序员，你不能只是简单地找到你的目的。

1:02:39 And same with drugs, you cannot find that thing you’re looking for, but they are a very great distraction.

与毒品一样，你找不到你正在寻找的东西，但它们是一种非常大的干扰。

And then at some point that distraction comes with a heavy cost.

然后在某些时候，这种分心会带来沉重的代价。

I think Dr. Faust would probably know the best about the heavy cost, but it’s just you’re making one trade for another and at some point the bill comes due and that bill can be very, very large.

我认为浮士德博士可能最了解高昂的成本，但这只是你在用一项交易换另一项交易，到了某个时候账单到期了，而且这笔账单可能非常非常大。

The other moment you mentioned that I think is really inspiring is that you failed pre-calculus.

你提到的另一个我认为真正鼓舞人心的时刻是你预科微积分失败了。

1:03:00 You really struggled in school.

你在学校确实很挣扎。

You realize that school is really hard and then eventually you’re able to sort of persevere and, I don’t know, break through that wall of struggle.

你意识到学校真的很难，然后最终你能够坚持下去，我不知道，冲破那堵挣扎的墙。

Can you, by way of advice, figure out what happened and what kind of advice you can give to people who are struggling?

您能否通过建议的方式弄清楚发生了什么事以及您可以为陷入困境的人们提供什么样的建议？

Yeah.

是的。

1:03:25 I’ll paint it in a more clear picture, or a very fast speed run of it is that I took pre-calculus, failed.

我会把它画成更清晰的图，或者以非常快的速度运行它，就是我预科微积分，失败了。

I took pre-calculus again, failed, took pre-calculus again and got a C.

我再次参加了微积分预科课程，失败了，再次参加了微积分预科课程，并获得了 C。

So I took it three times.

所以我就拿了三遍。

Then I took Calc over the summer, so Calc 1.

然后我在夏天学习了 Calc，所以 Calc 1。

In that one at the end, the final…

在最后的那个，最后……

The final was a two-hour final.

决赛进行了两个小时的决赛。

I finished it in 30 minutes and that was the highest score in all of the school.

我用了30分钟就完成了，这是全校最高分。

And I proceeded to be the highest score in all calculus and Diffy Q.

我在所有微积分和 Diffy Q 中取得了最高分。

1:03:54 I was the only person out of 400 people to finish the Diffy Q final.

我是 400 人中唯一完成 Diffy Q 决赛的人。

And I got the highest grade.

我得到了最高分。

And so I was like…

所以我就像……

I got really good.

我真的很好。

So I somehow went from really bad to really good.

所以我不知何故从非常糟糕变成了非常好。

And my only…

还有我唯一的……

The thing that I did is that I had to win.

我所做的就是我必须赢。

It was not a option.

这不是一个选择。

It was not like, “Oh, this would be really great.” It’s like, “I will not graduate, I will not finish my stuff if I cannot do this.”

这并不是说，“哦，这真的很棒。”就像，“如果我做不到这一点，我就不会毕业，我就不会完成我的工作。”

1:04:16 And so every single day I got up, I went to my however many hour class it was.

所以每天我起床后，不管上课时间有多长，我都会去参加。

Right after that, I went straight to the math learning center, did those problems.

之后我就直接去了数学学习中心，做那些题。

When I got home, I just got the book and it had the odd answers in the back.

当我回到家时，我刚刚拿到这本书，它的后面有奇怪的答案。

And I would try to walk through the problems over and over and over and over again until I absolutely got it.

我会尝试一遍又一遍地解决这些问题，直到我完全明白为止。

And it just became this thing where it’s just I…

结果就变成了只有我一个人的事情……

1:04:37 Just simple rote memory took over and the ability to just effectively have the times table, but for calculus, all stuck in my head.

只是简单的死记硬背和有效地掌握乘法表的能力，但对于微积分，所有这些都停留在我的脑海中。

Inverse trig substitution, trig substitution, doing Taylor and MaClaurin series.

逆三角替换、三角替换、泰勒级数和麦克劳林级数。

All those things, just over and over and over and over again.

所有这些事情，一遍又一遍，一遍又一遍。

Eventually they became easy.

最终他们变得容易了。

They became very easy.

他们变得非常容易。

It’s just that I had to cram it in there.

只是我不得不把它塞在那里。

1:04:57 And some people, you hear these stories, whether they barely show up to class and they get As, I’ve never been that person.

有些人，你听过这些故事，无论他们几乎没来上课，还是得了A，我从来都不是那样的人。

I’ve always been the person that has to sit down, read through everything, and I’m bad at abstract concepts.

我一直是那种必须坐下来阅读所有内容的人，而且我不擅长抽象概念。

I like the concrete into the abstract, not the abstract into the concrete.

我喜欢把具体变成抽象，而不是把抽象变成具体。

Very bad at talking about things theoretically, then trying to apply them.

非常不擅长从理论上谈论事物，然后尝试应用它们。

But if I can do it once literally, then it’s really easy for me to go into the abstract.

但如果我能从字面上做到一次，那么我就很容易进入抽象领域。

1:05:20 And so it’s just like…

所以就像……

For me, it’s just I had…

对我来说，这只是我所拥有的……

There’s no substitute for the hours.

时间是无可替代的。

So if I were to give advice, it’s just that you have to have time in the saddle.

因此，如果我要提供建议，那就是你必须有时间坐在马鞍上。

Hour after hour will make you slowly better.

一小时又一小时会让你慢慢好起来。

And at first, it’s crushing.

一开始，这令人心碎。

It’s defeating and it’s not fun because you are bad at it.

这是一种失败，而且并不有趣，因为你不擅长。

1:05:40 But then at some point you’re just not bad at it if you can just do it long enough, and you’ll start getting okay at it.

但到了某个时候，如果你能做足够长的时间，你就不会做得不好，并且你会开始变得好起来。

And then at some point you might even get good at it.

然后在某个时候你甚至可能会擅长它。

And when you get good at something, it feels amazing.

当你擅长某件事时，感觉棒极了。

1:05:50 There’s like an exploratory thing.

这就像一个探索性的事情。

If you’ve ever played a musical instrument, you stop having to think about all the little teeny things you have to do to be able to play something correctly.

如果你曾经演奏过一种乐器，你就不再需要考虑所有你必须做的小事才能正确地演奏某些东西。

And you start thinking about how you can explore that space.

然后你开始思考如何探索这个空间。

1:06:00 …play something correctly and you start thinking about how you can explore that space.

……正确地演奏一些东西，你就会开始思考如何探索那个空间。

It’s like it’s a completely different problem.

这就像这是一个完全不同的问题。

And same with programming, programming has an identical kind of feel to it.

与编程一样，编程也有同样的感觉。

It’s just like you’ll cross that barrier and it becomes magical as opposed to a chore.

就像你会跨越那个障碍一样，它变得神奇而不是苦差事。

Yeah.

是的。

1:06:15 Once you cross that barrier, somehow other things become easier.

一旦你跨越了这个障碍，其他事情就会变得更容易。

But then if you want to have a truly successful life, then you find the next barrier.

但如果你想拥有真正成功的生活，那么你就会发现下一个障碍。

Yeah, I’ve always been the same.

是的，我一直都是这样。

Everything’s come really hard.

一切都来得很艰难。

Yeah, I’ve had no free lunches.

是的，我没有免费的午餐。

1:06:27 Everything’s just been a lot of pain and struggle.

一切都充满了痛苦和挣扎。

I think somebody said that on this topic that you think work smarter not harder is a phrase that you dislike.

我想有人说过，在这个话题上，你不喜欢“你认为更聪明地工作而不是更努力地工作”这样的说法。

1:06:35 Somebody on Reddit told me this.

Reddit 上有人告诉我这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

1:06:47 I don’t just dislike it.

我不只是不喜欢它。

I hate that phrase.

我讨厌这句话。

Okay.

好的。

1:06:49 Tell me about your hatred.

告诉我你的仇恨。

How do you feel?

你感觉如何？

The reason why I dislike that is that there is kind of a hidden suggestion there, which is that you already know what smarter is, so just do that.

我不喜欢这样做的原因是，那里有一种隐藏的建议，那就是你已经知道什么是更聪明，所以就这么做吧。

1:06:54 That actually things should be easy.

实际上事情应该很容易。

You should just not have to try that hard.

你不应该那么努力。

You should just do the quick, easy, obvious path and boom, it’s done.

你应该只走快速、简单、明显的路径，然后就完成了。

It’s like I’ve never experienced that in anything I’ve done.

就好像我从来没有在我做过的任何事情中经历过一样。

Everything is actually really hard and most of the time I don’t even know what I’m doing, so therefore I don’t even know what smart looks like.

其实一切都很难，很多时候我什至不知道自己在做什么，所以我什至不知道什么是聪明。

And so for me, the only way I can learn how to work smart is by working very, very hard and knowing that there’s no shortcuts.

所以对我来说，学习如何聪明工作的唯一方法就是非常非常努力地工作，并且知道没有捷径。

And then when I finally figure out what smart is, when I work smart and work hard, it is that much better.

然后，当我最终弄清楚什么是聪明时，当我聪明地工作并努力工作时，那就好多了。

I think there’s a deep profound truth to that.

我认为这有一个深刻的道理。

There’s a lot of these phrases that just drive me nuts in our society,

在我们的社会里有很多这样的短语让我发疯，

But that one is…

但那个是……

1:07:45 Sorry, that one is really accepted if you can just linger on it because it really bothers me as well.

抱歉，如果你能坚持下去的话，那真的是可以接受的，因为它也确实困扰着我。

So one, which is a really nice thing you said, the presumption there is things should be easy and you’re a failure if you don’t see the easy path.

所以，你说的是一件非常好的事情，假设事情应该很容易，如果你看不到简单的道路，你就是一个失败者。

That’s kind of the implied thing.

这就是暗示的事情。

Just work smart, daug, why are you putting in all those hours?

聪明地工作吧，老兄，你为什么要花那么多时间呢？

And so it makes a lot of people that struggle feel like they’re a failure because I don’t see it.

因此，这让很多正在奋斗的人感觉自己是个失败者，因为我看不到这一点。

1:08:05 And then the choice they have, well, I’ll just be lazy and then maybe the profound truth will come to me somehow.

然后他们有选择，好吧，我只是懒惰，然后也许深刻的真理会以某种方式来到我身边。

And yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever, and I don’t think I’ve met great engineers that find the smart way without the extremely hard work.

是的，我想我从来没有遇到过，我想我也没有遇到过那些不经过极其艰苦的工作就能找到明智方法的伟大工程师。

The annoying thing about those great engineers is then looking back, they forget the hard work because they remember all the joy they now are experiencing from all the efficient, smart work they figured out how to do.

对于那些伟大的工程师来说，令人烦恼的是，当他们回顾过去时，他们忘记了辛苦的工作，因为他们记得他们现在从他们想出的所有高效、聪明的工作中体验到的所有快乐。

They forget.

他们忘记了。

So when they give advice they give the stupid advice of, well, just do it like the easy way

因此，当他们提供建议时，他们会给出愚蠢的建议，好吧，就用简单的方法来做吧

1:08:53 And here’s the easy way.

这是简单的方法。

But no, you have to put in the hours.

但不行，你必须投入时间。

Musical instrument is a beautiful example of guitar and piano.

乐器是吉他和钢琴的一个美丽例子。

I’ve put in, I don’t know how many thousands of hours.

我已经投入了，不知道有多少个小时。

And now when I’m explaining stuff jiu-jitsu as well, I sound like one of those people just relax in jiu-jitsu.

现在，当我也在解释柔术时，我听起来就像是那些只是在柔术中放松的人之一。

By the way, just relax is a really wonderful thing for physical endeavors like piano and so on.

顺便说一句，对于钢琴等体力活动来说，放松确实是一件很棒的事情。

But to learn how to relax your hand, how to relax your mind, your body and use whatever the biomechanics of your body to apply the correct kind of leverage and the timing and all that, that takes thousands of hours of learning.

但是要学习如何放松你的手，如何放松你的思想和身体，以及如何利用你身体的生物力学来应用正确的杠杆类型和时机等等，这需要数千小时的学习。

Just to learn how to relax takes a lot of really hard work.

仅仅学习如何放松就需要付出很多艰苦的努力。

In jiu-jitsu that takes many months of getting your ass beat over and over until you ride the bus home crying.

在柔术中，你需要好几个月的时间一遍又一遍地挨打，直到你哭着坐公共汽车回家。

1:09:55 Your ego completely shattered and destroyed.

你的自我彻底粉碎和摧毁。

And then a little element is figured out late that night or next morning.

然后当晚或第二天早上就想出了一个小要素。

And from the depression, there’s this little plant that grows this flower of insight.

从抑郁症中，有一种小植物长出了洞察力之花。

And you use that insight to then get your ass kicked again all next month and year.

然后你利用这种洞察力，在下个月和下一年再次让你的屁股被踢。

And then you grow and grow and grow.

然后你就会成长、成长、成长。

And from that you discover how beautifully simple jiu-jitsu is or Judo is, just speaking for myself, or piano or guitar.

从中你会发现柔术或柔道是多么美丽简单，仅就我自己而言，或者钢琴或吉他。

And then yes, the profound truth or the mastery of a skill feels simple when you finally arrive to it, but the path for most people is going to be a hard one.

是的，当你最终到达深刻的真理或掌握一项技能时，你会感觉很简单，但对大多数人来说，这条路将是一条艰难的路。

I think I should make an addendum to the phrase, I think the phrase should be work hard, get smart.

我认为我应该对这句话做一个补充，我认为这句话应该是努力工作，变得聪明。

Nice.

好的。

1:10:51 That’s a t-shirt.

那是一件T恤。

That’s what it should be.

事情应该如此。

Yeah, agreed.

是的，同意。

1:10:54 Okay, that was a tangent of a tangent.

好吧，这是切线的切线。

Can I say one more cultural phrase that I absolutely hate?

我还能再说一个我绝对讨厌的文化短语吗？

Yes.

是的。

The journey is better than the destination.

旅程比目的地更好。

1:11:01 Everyone’s heard this.

每个人都听说过这个。

Just take one second to apply what that means.

只需花一秒钟来应用这意味着什么。

That means forever starting from now, you are only going towards a place that’s worse.

这意味着从现在开始，你只会走向更糟糕的地方。

That literally is what it means.

从字面上看就是这个意思。

Enjoy the journey, celebrate the destination, that should be what it would be but no.

享受旅程，庆祝目的地，这本该是这样，但事实并非如此。

People say these phrases, they’re everywhere.

人们说这些短语，它们无处不在。

There’s these very shallow phrases that have no logical bounds to them.

这些非常浅薄的短语没有逻辑界限。

You’re just like, why would the journey ever be better than the destination?

你会想，为什么旅程会比目的地更好呢？

I think this might even be a C.S.

我认为这甚至可能是 C.S.

Lewis quote is that C.S.

刘易斯引用的是 C.S.

Lewis was like, nope, this is terrible.

刘易斯说，不，这太糟糕了。

The journey is not in fact better than the destination.

事实上，旅程并不比目的地更好。

I love the demotivational posters.

我喜欢那些消极的海报。

1:11:43 Progress, moving forward is better than moving backwards even if you’re still going nowhere.

进步，前进比倒退要好，即使你仍然一事无成。

There’s a lot-

有很多——

I feel that one so much being in California for a few years, that is painful.

我觉得在加州呆了几年是很痛苦的。

Positivity, if it doesn’t break you today don’t worry, it will try again tomorrow.

积极，如果今天没有让你崩溃，别担心，明天它会再试一次。

1:12:00 It’s just a lot of really great posters.

这只是很多非常棒的海报。

I didn’t even know this was a thing.

我什至不知道这是一件事。

This is a thing.

这是一件事。

Oh my gosh, I want that.

哦天哪，我想要那个。

Yeah.

是的。

Hey.

嘿。

1:12:12 Hi, this is ThePrimeagen.

大家好，我是 ThePrimeagen。

One thing that I forgot to mention in this podcast, which feels just so foolish to me for forgetting, is just what a big role my mom played in my life.

我在这个播客中忘记提及的一件事是，我的妈妈在我的生活中扮演了多么重要的角色，我觉得忘记这一点真是太愚蠢了。

She had to work 18 hours a day after my dad died.

我父亲去世后，她每天必须工作 18 个小时。

She really made her house be able to survive.

她确实让她的家能够生存下去。

I always looked up to her and I always thought her amazing.

我一直很尊敬她，我一直认为她很了不起。

And she really was the reason why when I decided to get my butt kicked back in gear, she’s just someone who I looked to as an internal inspiration for me to continuing, to keep on going because I really wanted to make her proud.

她确实是我决定重新振作起来的原因，她只是我的内在激励，让我继续前进，因为我真的想让她感到骄傲。

And all those years of just high energy effort, I really wanted to make sure that she knew that I was just so dang appreciative for it.

这么多年的高能量努力，我真的很想确保她知道我对此非常感激。

So hey, I just wanted to say thank you.

所以嘿，我只是想说谢谢。

Love you, mom.

爱你，妈妈。

For people who don’t know, you worked in Netflix.

也许有人不知道，您曾在 Netflix 工作。

By the way.

顺便一提。

By the way.

顺便一提。

1:13:00 Now, how did you go from there, from the hardship that we mentioned, from the struggle, from the addictions and so on to a place where you were working at this incredible engineering company and building cool shit there?

现在，你是如何从那里，从我们提到的困难，从挣扎，从成瘾等等，到你在这家令人难以置信的工程公司工作并在那里建造很酷的东西的地方？

So tell the Netflix story.

那么请讲述 Netflix 的故事。

Yeah, so I kind of alluded to it earlier that I wanted to do my own startup so for, I forget how long it was, one or two years or two and a half years, built a startup.

是的，所以我早些时候提到过我想自己创业，所以我忘记了花了多长时间，一两年或两年半，建立了一家初创公司。

1:13:21 PHP, jQuery, everyone’s favorite language is all put together.

PHP、jQuery，大家最喜欢的语言都放在一起了。

You can solve math stuff with jQuery.

您可以使用 jQuery 解决数学问题。

So I just was totally into just non-stop doing that.

所以我完全热衷于不停地这样做。

This is the height of Stack Overflow.

这是Stack Overflow 的高度。

I was asking really dumb questions on Stack Overflow like what is more pythonic?

我在 Stack Overflow 上问了一些非常愚蠢的问题，比如什么更Pythonic？

And then you get a bunch of up votes and try to steal a bunch of karma away, all the fun stuff to do.

然后你会得到一堆赞成票，并试图窃取一堆业力，所有有趣的事情都可以做。

Good times.

美好时光。

And I was just so into it breathing and I just breathe it in, breathe it out, and that’s what I do all day every day.

我非常喜欢呼吸，我只是吸气，呼气，这就是我每天所做的事情。

And so it’s just like non-stop building of a startup.

这就像不间断地创建一家初创公司一样。

Ultimately that startup failed and so I had to go get a real job.

最终那家初创公司失败了，所以我不得不去找一份真正的工作。

Can you say what the startup was?

你能说一下初创公司是什么吗？

It is so wild thinking about it in the past.

过去想起来真是太疯狂了。

1:14:08 Before I tell you what it is, I want to tell one quick thing about my dad.

在我告诉你这是什么之前，我想先简单介绍一下我父亲的一件事。

My dad in the early ’90s, like ’91, ’92, was building kind of a phone card company where you’d be able to pre-purchase long-distance minutes.

我父亲在 90 年代初，就像 91 年、92 年一样，正在建立一家电话卡公司，你可以在其中预先购买长途通话时间。

Now, if you remember the ’90s at about what ’97, ’98, ’99, 10-10-220, all those different things down the center, all those companies where you can pre-purchase long-distance minutes kind of came out and were very, very big.

现在，如果你还记得 90 年代，大约是 97、98、99、10-10-220，所有这些不同的东西都在中心，所有那些你可以预先购买长途通话时间的公司都出现了，而且规模非常非常大。

And so my dad was six years early to that notion and ultimately his startup failed.

所以我父亲比我早六年就提出了这个想法，但最终他的创业失败了。

But he was just really early to something that would catch on really, really big specifically in the telecommunication space.

但他只是很早就开始做一些会非常非常流行的事情，特别是在电信领域。

1:14:51 Me as I grew up and did my own startup, I did a startup where was text message marketing.

当我长大并开始自己创业时，我创办了一家短信营销初创公司。

This was in 2010 where you could receive, say texts about various deals, all that kind of stuff.

那是在 2010 年，你可以收到各种交易的短信，诸如此类的东西。

And of course, 10 years later now you don’t stop receiving texts and text message marketing is all the rage.

当然，十年后，你仍然不会停止接收短信，短信营销也风靡一时。

And so I also, much like my father had a startup in the telemarketing space in which was just like a half decade too early.

所以我也像我父亲一样，在电话营销领域创办了一家初创公司，但时间还早了五年。

So is it fair to say you’re almost always ahead of your time, that you’re a visionary of sorts?

那么，可以公平地说，你几乎总是走在时代的前面，你是一个有远见的人吗？

No, in fact, I am not ahead of my time.

不，事实上，我并没有走在时代的前面。

1:15:20 I just got, some would say I got unlucky on that situation.

我刚刚得到，有些人会说我在这种情况下运气不好。

But it seems so obvious to me at that time when I was doing it, 80% of phones were dumb phones.

但在我当时做这件事时，我觉得很明显，80% 的手机都是哑手机。

Most people had flip phones.

大多数人都有翻盖手机。

When I went and sold Via Text, is what the name was of that specific product.

当我通过 Text 销售时，就是该特定产品的名称。

And we had the short code via text too, so it was pretty clever, six digits.

我们也通过文本获得了短代码，所以它非常聪明，是六位数字。

When I went out and sold it, I only had a flip phone during that time.

当我出去卖的时候，我当时只有一部翻盖手机。

I didn’t even have a smartphone because they were kind of untenable for a lot of people.

我什至没有智能手机，因为它们对很多人来说有点站不住脚。

So it’s kind of just wild times to think about.

所以想想，这真是一段疯狂的时光。

1:15:56 But then after that, obviously had to get a real job.

但在那之后，显然必须找到一份真正的工作。

We were living in an apartment right next to campus, Bozeman, Montana.

我们住在蒙大拿州博兹曼校园旁边的一套公寓里。

And the guy below us must’ve been on some amount of drugs.

我们下面的那个人肯定吸食过一定量的毒品。

He threatened to kill us several times, would just scream and just lose his marbles all the time.

他好几次威胁要杀了我们，只是尖叫，总是失去理智。

Very unhinged man, angry downstairs man is what we call him.

非常精神错乱的人，愤怒的楼下人就是我们所说的他。

One time my wife dropped a battery, double A.

有一次我妻子掉了一块电池，双 A。

Okay, so we’re not talking about a B battery or D battery.

好的，我们不是在讨论 B 电池或 D 电池。

We’re just talking about a double A, drop it pa, land on the ground, “I’m going to kill you.” Like crazy, absolutely unhinged behavior down there.

我们只是在谈论双A，把它扔到地上，“我要杀了你。”就像疯狂的、完全精神错乱的行为一样。

So I had to go get a real job, we needed to move out of there.

所以我必须去找一份真正的工作，我们需要搬出那里。

We were going to start our life.

我们要开始我们的生活了。

1:16:34 And so I worked at a small place [inaudible 01:16:38], which I kind of talked about the boredom there.

所以我在一个小地方工作 [听不清 01:16:38]，我谈到了那里的无聊。

Got to go to a place called WebFilings where I’m working just tons and tons of hours.

我要去一个叫 WebFilings 的地方，在那里我工作了无数个小时。

During all that time I’m still trying to figure out startups.

在那段时间里，我仍在尝试寻找初创公司。

Did one where you could pre-wish your friend’s birthday messages, and then it would automatically send it via Facebook beforehand.

做了一个你可以预先祝福你朋友的生日消息，然后它会提前自动通过 Facebook 发送它。

We called it Greet Feed.

我们称之为 Greet Feed。

It was pretty clever.

这非常聪明。

Nonetheless, I say all that story because everything that I was doing was exploring, building, finishing things, working, learning about corporate life, learning how to communicate in corporate life, being able to be successful at a job, learning about a bunch of technologies that we’re about.

尽管如此，我之所以说这些故事，是因为我所做的一切都是在探索、构建、完成事物、工作、了解企业生活、学习如何在企业生活中沟通、能够在工作中取得成功、了解我们所关注的一系列技术。

1:17:13 And one of the big technologies during that day, specifically 2013 was RXJS, if you remember that one, RxJS, that’s a link from C# kind of ported over to JavaScript.

那天（特别是 2013 年）的一项重大技术是 RXJS，如果您还记得 RxJS，它是从 C# 移植到 JavaScript 的链接。

And for people who don’t know, I guess C-sharp, what is its closest neighbor?

对于那些不知道的人，我猜升 C 音，它最近的邻居是什么？

1:17:25 Java.

爪哇。

Is Java-

是Java-

They obviously just took Java and ripped it off at one point, but now it’s such a dynamic, interesting language that it seems like it could be a really cool bounds of practical versus not practical.

显然，他们只是在某个时候抄袭了 Java，但现在它是一种如此动态、有趣的语言，看起来它可能是实用与不实用的一个非常酷的界限。

1:17:30 It’s just I’m not really into wearing pleated pants and programming at a Microsoft house.

只是我不太喜欢穿褶皱裤和在微软家里编程。

Is pleated pants a requirement?

打褶裤有要求吗？

I think so.

我想是的。

Okay, we’ll get back to this.

好的，我们会回到这个话题。

Can we just get back-

我们可以回去吗-

All right.

好吧。

Triggering me here.

在这里刺激我。

WebFilings.

网络归档。

So anyways, WebFilings was that’s where I had to do all the matrices stuff and build systems and just kind of all that.

所以无论如何，WebFilings 是我必须做所有矩阵工作和构建系统之类的地方。

1:17:54 And it really pushed me because they also wanted me to do 60 hours a week.

这确实推动了我，因为他们也希望我每周工作 60 小时。

It was not very healthy work-life balance.

这不是很健康的工作与生活平衡。

It was very hard work.

这是非常辛苦的工作。

And kind of that really hard work going to cutting edge stuff, really understanding the world, really made it so that I was able to just be able to talk about stuff very commandingly because we had to build really complex state machines for the UI for what we’re building.

这种非常艰苦的工作涉及尖端的东西，真正了解世界，真正做到了，这样我就能够非常命令地谈论东西，因为我们必须为我们正在构建的 UI 构建非常复杂的状态机。

And so when I went and started getting a LinkedIn and all that, inevitably just due to the fact that I’ve touched all these technologies and I had some sort of paper trail saying, I’ve touched these technologies or Microsoft.

因此，当我开始建立 LinkedIn 之类的网站时，不可避免地只是因为我接触了所有这些技术，并且我有某种书面记录说，我接触过这些技术或微软。

Dang it, Lex

该死，莱克斯

Pleated pants.

打褶裤。

Pleated pants reached out.

百褶裤伸了出来。

1:18:36 No, Netflix reached out and said, “Hey, I see you’ve done RxJS.

不，Netflix 伸出手来说：“嘿，我看到你已经完成了 RxJS。

We do a lot of it.

我们做了很多。

You want to come and interview with us?” And I was always told that you should never reject kind of a handwritten personal invitation to interview.

你想来接受我们的采访吗？”我总是被告知，你永远不应该拒绝手写的个人面试邀请。

This was way before bots and even the bots were pretty obvious to tell they were bots.

这远早于机器人，甚至机器人也很明显地告诉我们它们是机器人。

This was a manager at Netflix, Jeff Wagner, first manager ever.

这是 Netflix 的经理杰夫·瓦格纳 (Jeff Wagner)，他是有史以来第一位经理。

And he just wrote a really nice note and just like, “Hey, I see you’re doing a lot of these things.

他刚刚写了一张非常好的便条，就像，“嘿，我看到你做了很多这样的事情。

We really need help with JavaScript.

我们确实需要 JavaScript 方面的帮助。

I would love for you to come interview.

我希望您能来面试。

We’re even using a lot of RxJS if you’re interested in that.” And so I was like, all right, I can come and I’ll interview.

如果您对此感兴趣的话，我们甚至使用了大量 RxJS。”所以我就想，好吧，我可以来接受采访。

And lo and behold, interview went on and I called my wife I think halfway through the interview and I was just like defeated, absolutely crushed because I said…

你瞧，采访继续进行，我打电话给我的妻子，我想采访进行到一半时，我就像被击败了，完全崩溃了，因为我说……

1:19:28 And she might remember this but I said, ” We now have to make a decision.

她可能还记得这一点，但我说：“我们现在必须做出决定。

Are we actually going to move to California or not?” Because I already knew I had the job at that point.

我们真的要搬到加利福尼亚吗？”因为那时我已经知道我得到了这份工作。

I was just knocking them out of the park.

我刚刚把他们赶出了公园。

I was doing a great job on that.

我在这方面做得很好。

And so I just knew for a fact, I’m getting a job at Netflix.

所以我就知道了一个事实，我在 Netflix 找到了一份工作。

There’s this thing that people always get so freaked out about when it comes to interviews and all that.

当谈到采访之类的事情时，人们总是会感到非常害怕。

And I luckily somehow avoided this.

幸运的是我以某种方式避免了这种情况。

I don’t get test anxiety, I don’t get any of that because when I go into these situations, my only goal is to show the things I already know.

我没有考试焦虑，我没有任何焦虑，因为当我进入这些情况时，我唯一的目标就是展示我已经知道的事情。

And so it’s like I walked into this situation, I’ve been preparing for this 80 hours a week for the last five years.

所以就好像我遇到了这种情况，在过去的五年里我一直在为这每周 80 个小时做准备。

So just walk in and I’m just showing the things I know.

所以只要走进去，我只是展示我所知道的东西。

1:20:08 And it was perfectly fitting for Netflix at that time period in the 2013, early JavaScript days on television.

它非常适合 2013 年 JavaScript 在电视上出现的那个时期的 Netflix。

And so it was just awesome, just worked out perfectly.

所以这真是太棒了，效果非常完美。

Got hired there.

在那里受聘了。

So we’re in California with Netflix.

我们在加利福尼亚州与 Netflix 合作。

1:20:19 This is San Francisco.

这是旧金山。

Los Gatos.

洛斯加托斯。

1:20:22 So if you’re familiar, so classic symbol people do which is this is San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Los Gatos is just kind of a little bit south of San Jose, same mega contiguous city.

所以如果你熟悉的话，人们会做的经典符号是旧金山、奥克兰、圣何塞，洛斯加托斯就在圣何塞以南一点点，同一个巨型连续城市。

Yellowstone is in Montana, Yellowstone, the show.

黄石公园是在蒙大拿州黄石公园演出的。

1:20:39 So is it basically like that, Kevin Costner riding on a horse?

那么基本上就是这样吗，凯文·科斯特纳骑在马上？

Were you riding on a horse to campus?

你骑马去校园吗？

No, but I love those stereotypes.

不，但我喜欢这些刻板印象。

1:20:48 Actually to be completely fair, when I was 15 years old, I was driving around on what is now a very busy populated street shooting gophers out the window of our car with a 22.

事实上，公平地说，当我 15 岁的时候，我开着一辆 22 开着车在现在非常繁忙的街道上拍摄车窗外的地鼠。

So it’s like Montana was a different place at one point than it is today.

所以，蒙大拿州在某个时刻与今天是一个不同的地方。

And there’s plenty of parts of Montana that’s still very rural, still kind of more of that old world.

蒙大拿州的很多地方仍然非常乡村，仍然更像旧世界。

So yeah, a little bit you can get whatever you want from Montana.

所以，是的，你可以从蒙大拿州得到你想要的任何东西。

As far as culturally goes, I’m not really sure the best way to put the difference between California and Montana.

就文化而言，我不太确定区分加利福尼亚州和蒙大拿州之间差异的最佳方式。

It’s just different expectations.

只是不同的期望而已。

One thing I can really appreciate about California, or at least when I say California, I mean the Silicon Valley Because obviously LA and the Silicon Valley, very different attitudes, very different mindsets.

我真正欣赏加州的一件事，或者至少当我说加州时，我指的是硅谷，因为显然洛杉矶和硅谷，态度非常不同，心态也非常不同。

You can’t really compare one to the other.

你无法真正将其中一个与另一个进行比较。

1:21:38 One thing I can say that’s really positive about the valley is that everybody is operating on this idea of trying to build or create something, and there’s an energy to it that’s very exciting.

我可以说，硅谷真正积极的一点是，每个人都在尝试建造或创造一些东西，并且有一种非常令人兴奋的能量。

You meet somebody and they have a startup and they’re working on the startup.

你遇到某人，他们有一家初创公司，并且他们正在为这家初创公司工作。

And it’s very exciting.

这非常令人兴奋。

And there’s a lot of negative aspects to that, and we can all agree that our entire life being commercialized has probably not been that great.

这有很多负面影响，我们都同意，我们的整个生活被商业化可能并没有那么美好。

But the kind of the experience of being there and everyone’s excited to build something, it’s a really cool experience.

但那种身处其中的体验，每个人都兴奋地想要创造一些东西，这是一种非常酷的体验。

Yeah, it’s really great.

是的，这真的很棒。

1:22:06 The excitement, the energy.

兴奋，能量。

Yeah, Montana doesn’t have that.

是的，蒙大拿州没有这个。

I have a romantic admiration for the shows like Yellowstone being out on nature.

我对像黄石公园这样的大自然表演有着浪漫的钦佩。

1:22:11 It’s beautiful.

很美丽。

I like riding horses.

我喜欢骑马。

Somebody also said Reddit is full of wisdom about you.

有人还说 Reddit 充满了关于你的智慧。

Some of it could be fake news, but something about horses and this kind of thing.

其中一些可能是假新闻，但有些是关于马之类的事情。

You like horses, you like riding horses?

你喜欢马，你喜欢骑马吗？

We have horses on…

我们有马…

1:22:28 Our neighbor had much more hilly land and one of the horses broke its leg, so they had to put it down.

我们的邻居有更多的山地，其中一匹马摔断了腿，所以他们不得不把它放下。

And so we just said, “Hey, we are on much flatter land.

所以我们只是说，“嘿，我们在平坦得多的土地上。

You can just have your horses in our property.” And so we just have horses that run around on our-

你可以把你的马放在我们的财产里。”所以我们只有马匹在我们的——

What about milking cows?

挤奶的奶牛怎么办？

1:22:44 Somebody asked about cattle and cow.

有人问有关牛和牛的问题。

So I’ve only had open cows.

所以我只养过开放的奶牛。

1:22:50 If you don’t know, cow means girl, open means that, hey, they’ve tried to get the cow pregnant.

如果你不知道，牛意味着女孩，开放意味着，嘿，他们试图让牛怀孕。

The cow did not get pregnant first try.

母牛第一次尝试并没有怀孕。

And so they’re calling that gene, they’re getting rid of that gene.

所以他们称之为该基因，他们正在摆脱该基因。

The open cow is going to now go out to pasture for the year and then get turned into delicious T-bone steaks and various things.

开放的牛现在要出去放牧一年，然后变成美味的丁骨牛排和各种东西。

And so we would house open cows on our property.

因此，我们会在我们的土地上饲养开放的奶牛。

So no, there’s no milking of open cows.

所以不，没有露天奶牛挤奶。

Okay.

好的。

They’d be very upset if you tried to milk an open cow because they’re not milking cows.

如果你试图给一头开放的奶牛挤奶，他们会非常不高兴，因为他们不给奶牛挤奶。

1:23:16 You have to get that cow pregnant.

你必须让那头牛怀孕。

And then once you get it pregnant, you have to kind of put it into this permanent state of milking and all that.

一旦你让它怀孕了，你就必须让它进入这种永久的挤奶状态等等。

And it’s a little bit more complicated than say what we did, which was just cows on eating grass and I didn’t have to touch them.

这比我们所做的要复杂一点，我们所做的只是牛在吃草，我不必碰它们。

Okay, well, that’s wonderful.

好吧，那太好了。

Reddit is not a great place for wisdom about me.

Reddit 并不是一个展示我智慧的好地方。

1:23:36 They’re going to give you the craziest answers.

他们会给你最疯狂的答案。

We’ll return to Reddit time and time again, my friend.

我的朋友，我们会一次又一次地回到 Reddit。

1:23:41 So yeah, you took the leap into Netflix.

是的，您进军 Netflix。

So what was that like?

那么那是什么样的呢？

This is one of those things where when you talk about it, people love to trivialize this because it’s like, oh, you’re taking a leap of faith by going into a fang company.

这是当你谈论它时，人们喜欢轻视它的事情之一，因为这就像，哦，你通过进入一家方公司实现了信仰的飞跃。

1:23:52 And in 2013, sounds super risky.

2013 年，听起来风险极高。

My wife was 36 weeks pregnant.

我的妻子怀孕 36 周。

We had to travel to a place where we knew not a soul.

我们必须前往一个无人认识的地方。

We were about to have our first kid.

我们即将生第一个孩子。

We didn’t even have a doctor.

我们甚至没有医生。

If you don’t know what having a baby does, you kind of want a relationship with a doctor.

如果您不知道生孩子会带来什么，您可能会想要与医生建立关系。

There’s a whole thing that goes on there.

那里正在发生一整件事。

So it was a really hard and great experience.

所以这是一次非常艰难而又很棒的经历。

So I went to a job in which their culture deck…

所以我去了一份他们的文化甲板的工作......

So during this time, this is where Netflix still had kind of that old generation X feel to it.

所以在这段时间里，Netflix 仍然有一种老一代 X 的感觉。

Their culture deck was hire fast, fire fast.

他们的文化平台租得快，解雇得也快。

It was very in your face about like, “Hey, this is how we operate.

这非常当着你的面，“嘿，这就是我们的运作方式。

You don’t meet the standards, we kick you out.”

你不符合标准，我们就把你踢出去。”

1:24:39 So it’s like I’m leaving a place where it’s more secure to go to a place I don’t know anybody, to a job that’s bold in its claims about firing everybody with a wife that’s just about to have a baby.

所以这就好像我要离开一个更安全的地方，去一个我不认识任何人的地方，去做一份大胆声称要解雇所有妻子即将生孩子的人的工作。

And I’m from Montana and every Montanan’s born with a natural dislike of California.

我来自蒙大拿州，每个蒙大拿人生来就对加州有一种天生的厌恶感。

So there’s all these things kind of flowing into it where it’s just going to be like, wow, this is a very intense experience.

所以所有这些东西都会涌入其中，就像是，哇，这是一次非常激烈的体验。

And it was hard for sure.

这很难确定。

It wasn’t just some easy simple experience that we were just like, oh, well, I work now at Fang.

这不仅仅是一些简单的经历，我们就像，哦，好吧，我现在在 Fang 工作。

We had to kind of work through that.

我们必须解决这个问题。

Having a kid was very difficult.

养孩子非常困难。

Our first kid was very difficult.

我们的第一个孩子非常困难。

Not having any family around to ever help you took a much larger toll on my wife than me, for sure.

毫无疑问，没有家人在身边帮助你，对我妻子的伤害比我大得多。

What was the technical learning curve for you?

您的技术学习曲线是怎样的？

1:25:23 You showed up in your plaid pants, dressed up?

你穿着格子裤出现，盛装打扮吗？

Yeah.

是的。

What did you have to learn about the Stack?

关于堆栈，你需要了解什么？

1:25:30 Because Netflix, I imagine is this incredible infrastructure.

因为 Netflix，我认为这是一个令人难以置信的基础设施。

It has to deliver just a huge amount of data.

它必须提供大量数据。

I’m just blown away by Netflix but also YouTube.

Netflix 和 YouTube 都让我震惊。

These companies that have to deliver, serve a huge amount of bits.

这些公司必须交付、服务大量的比特。

Netflix has it easiest.

Netflix 是最简单的。

1:25:55 Out of all the companies Netflix by…

在所有公司中，Netflix 的...

Even though you could say maybe we beat YouTube in view hours, I’m not sure if we do, but let’s just pretend Netflix has five x more view hours than YouTube.

尽管你可能会说我们的观看时长可能超过了 YouTube，但我不确定我们是否能做到这一点，但让我们假设 Netflix 的观看时长是 YouTube 的五倍。

Whatever it is, Netflix has a fundamentally easier problem than all other companies.

不管是什么，Netflix 面临的问题从根本上来说比所有其他公司都要容易。

And let’s get back to that.

让我们回到这一点。

I’m going to first tell you about the Stack, but I’ll tell you why it has a fundamentally easier problem.

我将首先向您介绍堆栈，但我会告诉您为什么它有一个从根本上更简单的问题。

So when I first got there, they gave me my PlayStation three.

所以当我第一次到达那里时，他们给了我我的 PlayStation 3。

My boss said, “Go learn some code.

我的老板说：“去学习一些代码。

Come back to me in a couple of days and tell me what you’ve learned.

几天后回来告诉我你学到了什么。

And then I’m going to start giving you bugs to fix.”

然后我将开始给你提供需要修复的错误。”

Wait, PlayStation three, what are you talking about?

等等，PlayStation 3，你在说什么？

Well, I was on the TV team.

嗯，我是电视团队的成员。

1:26:30 I had to go plug in a PlayStation and start launching programs onto the PlayStation three and figure out how to work Netflix on a television device.

我必须插入 PlayStation，开始在 PlayStation 3 上启动程序，并弄清楚如何在电视设备上运行 Netflix。

Oh, so you have different kinds of devices.

哦，所以你有不同类型的设备。

1:26:38 Why PlayStation three, is other different-

为什么 PlayStation 3 与众不同 -

It’s just 2013.

这只是2013年。

1:26:43 That’s what you have.

这就是你所拥有的。

Any devices that plug into the TV?

有哪些设备可以连接到电视上？

1:26:44 Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

Yeah, not as many TVs had Netflix, let alone what they called their Darwin app, which is their new application.

是的，没有那么多电视有 Netflix，更不用说他们所谓的达尔文应用程序，这是他们的新应用程序。

1:26:46 So if you bought a VIZIO earlier that year, you’d get their older one there.

因此，如果您当年早些时候购买了 VIZIO，您会在那里购买他们的旧款。

It’s called Plus UI.

它被称为 Plus UI。

You get their older version.

你得到他们的旧版本。

And so not many had the newer version.

因此没有多少人拥有较新的版本。

We no longer supported Plus or we never actively developed on Plus, we only did stuff on Darwin.

我们不再支持Plus，或者我们从未在Plus上积极开发，我们只在Darwin上做了一些事情。

And so I had to learn that whole stack, the backend or the middle end, the middle layer between the actual backend and the front end was written in Groovy.

所以我必须了解整个堆栈，后端或中间端，实际后端和前端之间的中间层是用 Groovy 编写的。

And as I went around, Groovy is if you’re not familiar with Jenkins, then you’ve probably never interacted with Groovy.

正如我所了解的那样，如果您不熟悉 Jenkins，那么您可能从未与 Groovy 进行过交互。

But Groovy is a JVM language.

但 Groovy 是一种 JVM 语言。

It’s a very interesting language, but here’s how it got started at Netflix.

这是一门非常有趣的语言，以下是它在 Netflix 的起源。

Oh, it’s Apache.

哦，这是阿帕奇。

1:27:30 Apache Groovy is a powerful object-oriented programming language that runs on the Java virtual machine released in 2007.

Apache Groovy 是一种功能强大的面向对象编程语言，运行在 2007 年发布的 Java 虚拟机上。

It has evolved to become a versatile language that combines both static and dynamic typing capabilities.

它已经发展成为一种结合了静态和动态类型功能的多功能语言。

All right, so the AI is kind of lying to you.

好吧，所以人工智能有点在骗你。

1:27:43 Groovy is not a powerful great language.

Groovy 并不是一门强大的伟大语言。

That statement makes it seem way cooler than it actually is.

这句话让它看起来比实际酷得多。

You’ll meet one out of 100 people that have touched Groovy that said, “Oh yeah, Groovy’s great.” The other 99 will be like, “Heavens forbid, you ever have to touch that language.” So when I got there, nobody, not a single soul at Netflix, those 40-some engineers had any idea how Groovy pretty much worked.

每 100 个接触过 Groovy 的人中都会有一个人说：“哦，是的，Groovy 太棒了。”其他 99 个人会说，“天哪，你必须接触那种语言。”所以当我到达那里时，Netflix 的 40 多名工程师没有人、没有一个人知道 Groovy 是如何工作的。

Somehow people just hacked together these scripts and put them all on there and it worked.

不知何故，人们只是将这些脚本拼凑在一起并将它们全部放在那里并且它起作用了。

And this was before there was a Groovy RX port.

这是在 Groovy RX 端口出现之前。

We wrote our own version called WX.

我们编写了自己的版本，称为 WX。

It was a nightmare, observables, all these things.

这是一场噩梦，可观察到的所有这些事情。

I remember one time they told me that, “Oh yeah, with RX it’s really easy.

我记得有一次他们告诉我，“哦，是的，有了 RX，这真的很容易。

You just say what you need to do.

你只需说出你需要做什么。

It maps out and boom, boom, everything will run and all that.” And I was like, “Oh wow, really?”

它描绘出繁荣、繁荣，一切都会运行等等。”我当时想，“哇哦，真的吗？”

1:28:33 So all I did was go like observable.sleep one because I just wanted to see it sleep and then do the next thing.

所以我所做的就是像 observable.sleep 一样，因为我只想看到它睡眠，然后做下一件事。

And it turns out when a thread sleeps itself, no thread can wake it up.

事实证明，当一个线程自行休眠时，没有线程可以唤醒它。

And I just turned off all of staging because I ran it like 10 times.

我只是关闭了所有的暂存，因为我运行了大约 10 次。

Like, oh, it’s not responding.

就像，哦，它没有回应。

Oh, it’s not responding.

哦，没反应。

Oh, now it’s not even coming back.

唉，现在已经回不来了。

Broke all of staging for everybody.

打破了所有人的所有舞台。

So no developer could work for the rest of the afternoon because I locked up all the instances because it turns out no, it was in fact not multi-threaded.

因此，没有开发人员可以在下午剩下的时间里工作，因为我锁定了所有实例，因为事实证明不是，它实际上不是多线程的。

Every assumption we’ve been told is a lie.

我们被告知的每一个假设都是谎言。

No one had any idea what they were doing.

没有人知道他们在做什么。

It was a wild time.

那是一段疯狂的时光。

And so I just simply naturally gravitated towards that because I’m good at print off debugging.

所以我很自然地倾向于这一点，因为我擅长打印调试。

I’m good at doing those things.

我很擅长做这些事情。

1:29:12 So I was like, yeah, I’ll just figure this out here.

所以我想，是的，我会在这里解决这个问题。

I will do this.

我会做这个。

So I had the rewrite how we do the data structure on the front end for the TV from what is called a LoLoMo, list of list of movies into LoLoRoMo, which is a list of list of recommendation objects for movie.

因此，我将电视前端的数据结构从所谓的 LoLoMo（电影列表列表）重写为 LoLoRoMo（电影推荐对象列表）。

Why would we need to do that?

为什么我们需要这样做？

Think about this.

想想这个。

You have two lists, one has Live Free Die Hard, Bruce Willis because you love Bruce Willis.

你有两份清单，一份是《Live Free Die Hard》、《Bruce Willis》，因为你喜欢布鲁斯·威利斯。

The other one has Live Free Die Hard because you want tough men doing tough jobs.

另一种是《Live Free Die Hard》，因为你希望坚强的人做艰苦的工作。

Well, during those days we’d only have one way we could show evidence why you wanted it.

好吧，在那些日子里，我们只有一种方法可以证明你为什么想要它。

So we couldn’t say, “Oh, because you liked this other movie.” You’d go to that one and say the same thing.

所以我们不能说，“哦，因为你喜欢另一部电影。”你会去那个地方说同样的话。

So we had to add one level of indirection where we could decorate the video with the recommendation information.

因此，我们必须添加一层间接层，以便我们可以用推荐信息来装饰视频。

Okay.

好的。

1:29:52 So you can abstract away into the space of recommendation versus the space of movies directly.

因此，您可以直接抽象到推荐空间和电影空间。

Yeah.

是的。

1:29:56 So you can’t hang it off the video because obviously then it would be the same for everything that shows that same video.

因此，您不能将其挂在视频上，因为显然，对于显示同一视频的所有内容来说，它都是相同的。

That’s amazing.

太棒了。

I had to do all this and I wrote it in Groovy and I just did it-

我必须做这一切，我用 Groovy 编写了它，然后我就做到了 -

Such a funny name.

真是个有趣的名字。

And people were like, “How did you write this in Groovy?” And I was just like, “Well, I read the language reference for a day and then programmed it.” Well, what do you mean?

人们会问，“你是怎么用 Groovy 写这个的？”我当时想，“好吧，我读了一天语言参考资料，然后对其进行了编程。”嗯，你什么意思？

1:30:06 It was a very radical language, shall we say.

可以说，这是一种非常激进的语言。

And so I just simply became the person that knew these things, so they just give me more and more jobs with that.

所以我只是成为了知道这些事情的人，所以他们就给了我越来越多的工作。

And so that’s kind of how I excelled, being the person that was willing to do the thing that no one else was.

这就是我的卓越之处，成为一个愿意做别人不敢做的事情的人。

Yeah.

是的。

1:30:28 Can you actually speak to the print off debugging.

你能真正谈谈打印调试吗？

You walk into a system and there’s a lot of systems in the world like this.

你走进一个系统，世界上有很多这样的系统。

Twitter was like this, when Elon acquired Twitter and the rolls in and there’s this old junky code base that’s just like a giant mess, and you have to basically do print off debugging.

Twitter 就是这样，当 Elon 收购 Twitter 并推出时，就有了这个旧的垃圾代码库，就像一团糟，你基本上必须进行打印调试。

What’s the process of going into a code base and figuring out what the fuck?

进入代码库并弄清楚到底是什么的过程是怎样的？

Well, how does this work?

那么，这是如何运作的呢？

What are the flaws?

有哪些缺陷？

What are the assumptions?

假设是什么？

You have to reverse engineer what all these other engineers did in the past and the mess across the space of months and years, and you have to figure out how all that works in order to make improvements.

你必须对所有其他工程师过去所做的事情以及几个月和几年的混乱情况进行逆向工程，并且你必须弄清楚所有这些是如何工作的才能做出改进。

I’ve always just been good at print off debugging because one of my first kind of side quest jobs that I got was writing robots for the government when I was still at school.

我一直擅长打印调试，因为我在学校时获得的第一种支线任务工作就是为政府编写机器人。

1:31:06 And so I’d kind of do this contractually for so many hours a week.

所以我会根据合同每周花很多时间来做这件事。

And my boss, Hunter Lloyd, great professor by the way, he just said, “Hey, here’s your computer, here’s the robot, here’s how you plug it in.

我的老板亨特·劳埃德（Hunter Lloyd），顺便说一下，他是一位伟大的教授，他只是说：“嘿，这是你的电脑，这是机器人，这是你如何插入它的。

Here’s how you run the code.

以下是运行代码的方法。

Can you write the flash driver, the ethernet driver.

你能写闪存驱动程序、以太网驱动程序吗？

Can you write the planetary pancake motor?

你能写出行星煎饼电机吗？

Here’s some manuals, I’m missing some.

这是一些手册，我丢失了一些。

Just figure it out, I’ll be back.” So that was government work for me.

你想清楚了，我就回来。”所以这对我来说是政府工作。

So I was like, okay, I’ll figure all these things out.

所以我想，好吧，我会解决所有这些问题。

And I figured them all out and the only way to really get anything out of the machine was to print.

我把它们全部弄清楚了，真正从机器中得到任何东西的唯一方法就是打印。

And so it’s like I had to become really good at printing my way through problems.

所以我必须非常擅长打印解决问题的方法。

And so that kind of became this skill I guess I adopted is that I can just kind of print off debug my way through a lot of these problems.

因此，我想我采用的这种技能就是我可以通过打印调试方式解决很多这些问题。

1:31:56 Obviously I’m not a game developer, probably a different world probably should use…

显然我不是游戏开发者，可能异世界可能应该使用……

I think John Carmack was on here and talked to how great the debugger is, different world.

我想约翰·卡马克（John Carmack）在这里谈论了调试器是多么伟大，不同的世界。

Because when I was at Netflix, there’s machines that exist somewhere on AWS, I’m not logged into them.

因为当我在 Netflix 时，AWS 上有一些机器，但我没有登录它们。

I don’t even know how to log into them.

我什至不知道如何登录它们。

I’m not even sure if I have credentials to log into them.

我什至不确定我是否有登录它们的凭据。

They run once somewhere and I have to figure out what happened and why it’s happening.

他们在某个地方跑过一次，我必须弄清楚发生了什么以及为什么会发生。

So it’s like I’m going to become…

所以这就像我会成为……

This is what I’ve trained for.

这就是我训练的目的。

I’m a print off debugging champion.

我是打印调试冠军。

So it’s just like I could just run through these things really quickly and figure out why they’re happening the way they’re happening.

所以就像我可以快速浏览这些事情并找出它们为什么会这样发生一样。

You’re a special human.

你是一个特别的人。

1:32:26 I think that’s an incredible skill set to have to be able to drop in into any code base, drop into any situation, and do print off debugging.

我认为这是一项令人难以置信的技能，必须能够融入任何代码库，融入任何情况，并进行打印调试。

Meaning you’re in a dark room and you’re feeling around that room to try to figure out what the room is.

这意味着你在一个黑暗的房间里，你在那个房间周围感觉，试图弄清楚这个房间是什么。

Well, I had the code so it’s like I can kind of blueprint what’s happening.

好吧，我有代码，所以我可以绘制正在发生的事情的蓝图。

1:32:40 I don’t understand the services or anything, but you can start guessing pretty quick as to what’s going wrong.

我不了解服务或其他任何东西，但你可以很快开始猜测出了什么问题。

Right.

正确的。

1:32:48 But then the print side of that helps you confirm your intuitions, test your intuitions and build up more and more information.

但印刷方面可以帮助你确认你的直觉，测试你的直觉并建立越来越多的信息。

And then you start to accumulate this bigger picture from that, what the edge cases are that break the system and not.

然后你开始从中积累更大的图景，哪些边缘情况会破坏系统，哪些不会破坏系统。

I think that just that kind of situation is intimidating for a lot of engineers.

我认为这种情况对很多工程师来说都是令人生畏的。

They break down at that point.

他们在那一刻崩溃了。

I think it really is a powerful thing to be able to come into a code base, that’s generally a skillset of very few of us start from scratch.

我认为能够进入代码库确实是一件很强大的事情，这通常是我们中极少数人从头开始的技能。

And actually this is the fundamental problem of web development and in general where they’re like, I don’t know what’s going on.

实际上，这是网络开发的根本问题，总的来说，我不知道发生了什么。

I’m going to write my own thing from scratch.

我将从头开始写我自己的东西。

As opposed to actually doing print off debugging on the space of languages, on the space of problems, because there’s a lot of wisdom and solved problems already in this code base.

与实际在语言空间、问题空间上进行打印调试相反，因为这个代码库中已经有很多智慧和已解决的问题。

1:33:50 It’s a much more important skillset to understand, to learn from the mistakes and the wisdom of the past, of the ancestors that came before and build on them as opposed to throw it all out and start from scratch.

理解、从过去、前人的错误和智慧中学习并在此基础上继续发展，而不是完全抛弃并从头开始，这是一种更重要的技能。

This is something obviously you see a lot with a JavaScript framework that comes out and you won every single day.

显然，这是你在 JavaScript 框架中经常看到的事情，它的出现让你每天都赢了。

I have a very great story about that, that this is what I think has shaped me the most about my perspective of other devs.

关于这一点，我有一个非常精彩的故事，我认为这对我对其他开发者的看法影响最大。

1:34:12 There’s this dev and he always just wrote things in just what I thought was such a bizarre and weird way, and this had to do with Falcor.

有一个开发者，他总是用我认为非常奇怪的方式写东西，这与 Falcor 有关。

So our data fetching library for Netflix, This would run on mobile.

因此，我们的 Netflix 数据获取库将在移动设备上运行。

So I had to write in Objective-C.

所以我不得不用 Objective-C 来写。

It had to run on television and it had to also run on web.

它必须在电视上运行，也必须在网络上运行。

So it ran on everything.

所以它运行在一切之上。

And me and one other person were responsible for this thing working.

我和另外一个人负责这件事的运作。

And the request side where we’d have to de-dupe the information that we already have, the requests that were pending and the new data.

在请求端，我们必须对已有的信息、待处理的请求和新数据进行重复数据删除。

1:34:45 So I had to figure all that out based on what someone’s requesting, and then just only optimally request the stuff that we don’t have.

所以我必须根据某人的要求弄清楚所有这些，然后只最佳地要求我们没有的东西。

He wrote in such a goofy way and I’m thinking, man, this guy is just…

他写的方式很愚蠢，我在想，伙计，这家伙只是……

What a goofball.

真是个傻瓜。

So I delete it all and I start writing and I’m like, look at how much nicer this is.

所以我把它全部删除，然后开始写作，我想，看看这有多好。

It’s looking so good.

看起来很好。

I’m like, Ooh, there’s that one edge case.

我想，哦，有一种极端情况。

Okay, I can see why he wrote it this one way.

好吧，我明白他为什么这样写了。

That’s not a big deal though.

不过这没什么大不了的。

The rest of my code’s really great.

我的其余代码真的很棒。

By the end of it, I’m like, I literally almost line for line just reproduced what he already wrote.

到最后，我想，我几乎逐行复制了他已经写过的内容。

It’s slightly different towards my style, but I just wrote the same code.

这与我的风格略有不同，但我只是编写了相同的代码。

I’m like, I’m an idiot.

我想，我是个白痴。

1:35:20 I am the idiot in this situation because it was already a solved problem.

在这种情况下我是个白痴，因为这已经是一个解决了的问题。

I just didn’t take the time to learn what he did.

我只是没有花时间去了解他做了什么。

Instead, I relearned what he did by rewriting the entire thing.

相反，我通过重写整个事情来重新了解他所做的事情。

I think that’s a skill set that is extremely important for people to learn.

我认为这对人们来说非常重要。

1:35:29 I see that in myself.

我在自己身上看到了这一点。

That’s a constant struggle for myself when facing a code base, for example.

例如，当我面对代码库时，这对我来说是一场持续的斗争。

But this applies generally in life, where somebody did a lot of work to do a thing, you should invest a huge amount of time and get really good at figuring out what they did, why they did it.

但这普遍适用于生活中，当某人做了很多工作才能做一件事时，你应该投入大量时间并真正善于弄清楚他们做了什么，为什么这么做。

Do a lot of print off debugging to understand what they did.

进行大量打印调试以了解他们做了什么。

It’s a much more efficient way to understand a problem deeply than to start from scratch.

这是深入理解问题比从头开始更有效的方法。

Even though there’s a constant temptation to start from scratch, because starting from scratch is fun.

尽管从头开始的诱惑一直存在，因为从头开始很有趣。

You do get the puzzle solved and all that kind of stuff.

你确实解决了难题以及诸如此类的事情。

It’s just not going to be the right thing to do.

这不是正确的做法。

Usually pain is the right thing to do, and it is for most people painful to understand other people’s code bases.

通常，痛苦是正确的事情，对于大多数人来说，理解别人的代码库是痛苦的。

I highly recommend starting from scratch if you want to understand a concept.

如果您想理解一个概念，我强烈建议您从头开始。

1:36:21 You don’t know how an HTTP server works, create a TCP socket, learn how to parse HTTP.

你不知道HTTP服务器是如何工作的，创建一个TCP套接字，学习如何解析HTTP。

It’ll become very easy and you’ll go, this is the reason why whenever I get a request, I have to await the text.

这会变得非常容易，你就可以走了，这就是为什么每当我收到请求时，我都必须等待短信的原因。

I now understand why the text is for whatever reason not there.

我现在明白为什么文本由于某种原因不存在了。

I get it.

我得到它。

I now understand it.

我现在明白了。

And so you kind of gain these new perspectives just by simply parsing something out.

因此，只需简单地解析一些东西，你就可以获得这些新的视角。

All right.

好的。

1:36:50 Back to the wisdom of Reddit.

回到 Reddit 的智慧。

Apparently there are memes and legends about your programming arc in Netflix.

显然，Netflix 中有关于您的节目弧线的模因和传说。

This Falcor system you mentioned, somebody, I think it was Teej, how do you pronounce his name by the way?

你提到的这个 Falcor 系统，有人，我想是 Teej，顺便问一下他的名字怎么发音？

Teej.

蒂杰。

Okay, Teej.

好吧，蒂吉。

TJ would be his name, but we call it Teej or Telescopic Johnson.

TJ 将是他的名字，但我们称之为 Teej 或 Telescope Johnson。

Oh wow, so many names.

哇哦，这么多名字。

1:37:10 DDoS, distributed denial of service attacks, you apparently were able to accomplish the simplified version of that of just DoS.

DDoS，分布式拒绝服务攻击，您显然能够完成 DoS 攻击的简化版本。

That’s a legend.

那是一个传奇。

So you basically broke down the system somehow.

所以你基本上以某种方式破坏了系统。

Yeah.

是的。

Can you tell the story of that?

你能讲一下这个故事吗？

I’d be glad to.

我很乐意这样做。

1:37:28 So there’s this Falcor business, and I did discover the bug before anybody else and I did report it to security and it was so bad.

所以这就是 Falcor 业务，我确实比其他人先发现了这个错误，并且我确实向安全部门报告了它，情况非常糟糕。

It actually got its own name, Repulsive Grizzly Attack, and they even give examples of how to do it.

它实际上有自己的名字，令人厌恶的灰熊攻击，他们甚至给出了如何做到这一点的例子。

Effectively what it means is that there is a request that targets both memory and CPU and will destroy.

实际上，这意味着存在一个同时针对内存和 CPU 的请求，并且该请求将被破坏。

There you go.

就这样吧。

Look, how Netflix…

看看 Netflix 如何...

The next one down was the article that was actually written.

下一篇是实际写的文章。

I don’t get mentioned, which is a little bit upsetting considering I was the one that discovered it and told everybody how bad it was.

我没有被提及，考虑到我是发现它并告诉每个人它有多糟糕的人，这有点令人沮丧。

1:38:01 Anyways, and had the right to fix for it or the first fix.

不管怎样，并且有权修复它或第一次修复。

So this is how it works, is that you can do something pretty similar, I believe with GraphQL as well.

这就是它的工作原理，我相信使用 GraphQL 也可以做一些非常类似的事情。

It has the same kind of danger.

它也有同样的危险。

Any of these kinds of RPC request as much or as little of the data as you would like frameworks, are vulnerable to this kind of attack.

任何此类 RPC 请求的数据量与您希望的框架一样多或一样少，都容易受到此类攻击。

So with Falcor, what you do is you give it an array.

所以对于 Falcor，你要做的就是给它一个数组。

That’s an array is called a path, and that’s the path to the data.

数组称为路径，这就是数据的路径。

But sometimes you don’t want to have to write out, I want movie, I want row zero or list zero or row zero column zero title.

但有时你不想写出，我想要电影，我想要零行或零列表或零行零列标题。

I want row zero column zero description.

我想要行零列零描述。

You don’t want to have to write out all that.

你不想把所有这些都写出来。

1:38:42 So instead you could just be like, I want rows zero through 10, columns zero through 10, titles and descriptions.

因此，您可能只是想，我想要第 0 到 10 行、第 0 到 10 列、标题和描述。

So you can write in a very compact, nice little format and it’ll give you all that data.

所以你可以用一种非常紧凑、漂亮的小格式编写，它会给你所有的数据。

It’ll go to the server.

它将转到服务器。

The server will fill that all in and give it to you.

服务器将填写所有内容并将其提供给您。

Oh, dang it, list three, it only had three videos in it.

哦，该死，列出三个，里面只有三个视频。

So what happens when I try-

那么当我尝试时会发生什么-

1:39:00 Three, it only had three videos in it.

第三，里面只有三个视频。

So what happens when I try to re-request the data?

那么当我尝试重新请求数据时会发生什么？

Well, I need a way to be able to tell my system that you’d have requested the data and there’s nothing there.

好吧，我需要一种方法来告诉我的系统您已经请求了数据，但那里什么也没有。

So call this like a boxed value.

所以将其称为盒装值。

So it’s going to be like type, something, value, there’s nothing there.

所以它就像类型、东西、值，什么都没有。

We’ve already requested it and there’s nothing there.

我们已经要求了，但那里什么也没有。

It’s like a sentinel value, if you will, a boxed value.

如果你愿意的话，它就像一个哨兵值，一个盒装值。

And we have this little special flag weed pass called materialize.

我们有一个名为 Materialize 的特殊旗帜杂草通道。

Meaning that when you ask for a path, we will make sure we fill it out so we don’t accidentally erase anything.

这意味着当您询问路径时，我们将确保填写它，这样我们就不会意外删除任何内容。

And at the very end we’ll say okay, the thing does, the request you’ve made has already been made and there’s nothing there.

最后我们会说，好吧，事情确实发生了，你提出的请求已经提出了，那里什么也没有。

Well, what happens if I request rows zero through 10,000 columns through 10,000, one more item through 10,000 and then a whole bunch of properties and then ask it to materialize?

那么，如果我请求第 0 行到第 10,000 行到第 10,000 列，再请求第 10,000 行，然后请求一大堆属性，然后要求它实现，会发生什么情况？

1:39:49 Well, I’m about to go create billions of objects in the JVM, and what happens to the machine?

好吧，我即将在 JVM 中创建数十亿个对象，机器会发生什么？

It stops running.

它停止运行。

And then if we try to JSON…

然后如果我们尝试 JSON...

Even if it could create a mall, we then ask it that JSON serialize, it’s not going to do it.

即使它可以创建一个商城，然后我们要求它进行 JSON 序列化，它也不会这样做。

It’s impossible.

这是不可能的。

And so that was the attack vector, is a simple wild loop would’ve taken down and held down Netflix for a very long time.

这就是攻击向量，一个简单的疯狂循环就可以让 Netflix 瘫痪很长一段时间。

Because one request would kill one machine on AWS.

因为一个请求会杀死 AWS 上的一台机器。

And so that means it would just turn it all off.

这意味着它会将其全部关闭。

And this was on the website?

这是在网站上吗？

This was on TV, this was on mobile.

这是在电视上，这是在手机上。

This was profound.

这是深刻的。

And here’s the worst part, it was in production for years so we couldn’t even roll it back.

这是最糟糕的部分，它已经生产了多年，所以我们甚至无法将其回滚。

There was no like, “Oh crap, let’s just roll back to two weeks ago and we’ll fix forward and figure out.” No, it’s like we could roll back to 2011.

不会有人说，“哦，糟糕，让我们回滚到两周前，我们会向前解决并找出答案。”不，我们好像可以回到 2011 年。

That’s our option is 2011 and that’s it.

我们的选择是 2011 年，仅此而已。

So we had to figure out a way forward and all that.

所以我们必须找出前进的道路等等。

And so it was like…

所以就像……

The amount of problems that would’ve happened if someone would’ve discovered this is unstatable.

如果有人发现这一点，将会发生多少问题，这是无法统计的。

Just to be clear, the infrastructure that’s serving the videos would shut down.

需要明确的是，提供视频服务的基础设施将关闭。

Yeah, the UI, you couldn’t perform any actions in the UI.

是的，用户界面，您无法在用户界面中执行任何操作。

1:41:00 You surprisingly could still stream video but you would never be able to get to a video to stream.

令人惊讶的是，您仍然可以流式传输视频，但您永远无法访问要流式传输的视频。

Because every action you would take would be completely shut down.

因为你所做的每一个动作都会被完全关闭。

And so it wasn’t a DDoS because you didn’t need a bunch of computers to try to overwhelm the system by making a bunch of requests, one request, one machine.

因此，这不是 DDoS，因为您不需要一堆计算机来尝试通过发出一堆请求（一个请求、一台机器）来淹没系统。

If we had 50 machines serving the millions of requests, it’d only take 50 requests to shut down the entire UI.

如果我们有 50 台机器来服务数百万个请求，那么只需要 50 个请求就可以关闭整个 UI。

Isn’t it possible to do DoS or DDoS on basically any software system Like defending against all the closing all those attack factors is probably really difficult.

难道不可能在任何软件系统上进行 DoS 或 DDoS 攻击吗？像防御所有这些攻击因素可能真的很困难。

1:41:23 If you take any sufficiently complicated software system, there’s probably so many ways to overwhelm it.

如果你使用任何足够复杂的软件系统，可能有很多方法可以压倒它。

Yeah, this is why people use CloudFlare.

是的，这就是人们使用 CloudFlare 的原因。

1:41:42 I think d HH said it best, which is like we have our website and we have a strong bodyguard on the outside.

我认为d HH说得最好，这就像我们有我们的网站，我们在外面有一个强大的保镖。

So CloudFlare has a bunch of utilities all built in.

因此，CloudFlare 内置了许多实用程序。

Because obviously this is why everyone hates all these Bluetooth devices that connect to the internet because they just turn into attack vectors where people use those to DoS or DDoS other sites.

因为显然这就是为什么每个人都讨厌所有这些连接到互联网的蓝牙设备，因为它们只会变成攻击媒介，人们使用这些设备对其他网站进行 DoS 或 DDoS。

And so you don’t need something sophisticated, you just need a bunch of requests to come in and you can take down websites.

所以你不需要复杂的东西，你只需要一堆请求进来，你就可以关闭网站。

And so that’s why these fronts are really good at discovering where these problems are.

这就是为什么这些前沿非常擅长发现这些问题所在。

1:42:13 But DoS is a bit different, because it doesn’t have to be overwhelming by using resources with a whole bunch of requests.

但 DoS 有点不同，因为它不必因大量请求而使用资源而造成压倒性的后果。

It really just means simply that there’s a denial of service attack.

这实际上只是意味着存在拒绝服务攻击。

One of them could be there’s a RegEx attack that existed where CloudFlare actually did it to itself and shut itself down, which is there’s a RegEx expansion attack where given the right RegEx, if you know someone’s running a specific RegEx, you can actually provide input that is maximally bad and that thing goes to super processing.

其中之一可能是存在正则表达式攻击，CloudFlare 实际上对自己进行了攻击并关闭了自己，​​这是一种正则表达式扩展攻击，如果给定正确的正则表达式，如果你知道某人正在运行特定的正则表达式，你实际上可以提供最糟糕的输入，然后事情会进入超级处理。

It takes 10 seconds to process a single request, then you only need to make hundreds of requests and you shut down the whole service.

处理一个请求需要 10 秒，然后你只需要发出数百个请求，然后关闭整个服务。

It’s not like you need some giant machinery to make one trillion requests.

这并不像你需要一些巨型机器来发出一万亿个请求。

You only need just some small amount to completely destroy a service.

您只需要少量即可完全摧毁一项服务。

And so there’s…

所以有……

The web is an extremely difficult place to do it correct.

网络是一个极其难以正确执行此操作的地方。

This is super fascinating.

这真是超级迷人。

1:42:59 I do also wonder how many ultra competent, what is it, black hat hackers there are, versus the good guys versus the bad guys.

我也确实想知道有多少超级能干的黑帽黑客，这是什么，与好人与坏人相对。

How many bad guys there are and what is the average…

有多少坏人，平均数是多少……

What is the distribution of skillset on the bad guy side that are constantly trying to attack?

不断尝试攻击的坏人一方的技能分布是怎样的？

I assume there’s probably a huge number of just really simple ones, script kitties, right?

我认为可能有大量非常简单的脚本小猫，对吧？

1:43:23 Just people trying to just do things.

只是人们试图做事。

And then there’s a huge amount of social engineering that just goes in where hacking’s done, not with a computer but just by one of the classic ones.

然后，有大量的社会工程直接进入黑客攻击的地方，不是使用计算机，而是使用经典的计算机之一。

Kevin Mitnick had this one in his book which was you’d call up somebody pretending to be like, “Charlene, we’re doing some auditing and I think your pin’s out of date on file.

凯文·米特尼克（Kevin Mitnick）在他的书中提到了这一点，那就是你会假装打电话给某人，“夏琳，我们正在做一些审计，我认为你的密码已经过时了。

Is it 2323, still?” And they’re like, “No, it’s 4747.” You’re like, “Oh, thanks Sharon.” Boom.

还是2323吗？”他们说：“不，是 4747。”你会说，“哦，谢谢莎伦。”繁荣。

You just hacked him.

你刚刚黑了他。

Right?

正确的？

The classic people love correcting bad information.

经典的人喜欢纠正错误的信息。

1:43:57 This is like a standard.

这就像一个标准。

So there’s all these ways people hack.

人们的黑客攻击方式有很多。

And so my assumption is that there are really great white hat hackers, there’s really great black hat hackers.

所以我的假设是，确实有很棒的白帽黑客，也有很棒的黑帽黑客。

But the vulnerability space, the harp, the thing is that discovering a vulnerability and you don’t let anyone know, the white hat hacker still has to make that same discovery.

但是漏洞空间，竖琴，问题是，发现漏洞并且你不让任何人知道，白帽黑客仍然必须做出同样的发现。

And that’s where I think the real thing is that black hat hacking in some sense has a fundamentally easier job or at least a job in which they can take advantage of for much longer periods of time.

这就是我认为真正的问题是，从某种意义上说，黑帽黑客的工作从根本上来说更容易，或者至少是他们可以利用更长时间的工作。

One’s the process of discovering who’s breaking the system.

这是发现谁破坏系统的过程。

The other one’s trying to figure out how to break the system.

另一个则试图找出如何破坏系统的方法。

And it seems like most software is held together by toothpicks and glue and there is a lot of dangers in every piece.

似乎大多数软件都是用牙签和胶水粘合在一起的，每个部分都存在很多危险。

And also the social engineering aspect, that’s a real attack vector.

还有社会工程方面，这是一个真正的攻击媒介。

1:44:40 I think that’s the attack vector that will do in the longterm the most damage in the world.

我认为从长远来看，这是世界上造成最大损害的攻击方式。

Especially as AI tooling becomes easier and easier to convince people at scale, sort of do that email Grandma.

尤其是随着人工智能工具变得越来越容易大规模说服人们，就像给奶奶发电子邮件一样。

I think that’s a really serious attack vector, like human psychology and all that.

我认为这是一个非常严重的攻击媒介，就像人类心理学等等。

I assume whenever there’s a girl that approaches me, it’s some kind of social engineering project, some attack vector, some intelligence agency.

我认为每当有一个女孩接近我时，这都是某种社会工程项目，某种攻击媒介，某种情报机构。

In fact, I’m pretty sure-

事实上，我很确定——

We’re back to A Beautiful Mind, aren’t we?

我们又回到了《美丽心灵》，不是吗？

Beautiful mind?

心灵美吗？

1:45:14 Yeah.

是的。

I have a whiteboard upstairs that I calculate everything, everybody’s trajectory and move.

我在楼上有一块白板，我可以计算一切，每个人的轨迹和移动。

You’re not wrong though with the attack vector, especially in the day of AI.

不过，你对攻击向量的看法并没有错，尤其是在人工智能时代。

1:45:20 One thing that I don’t think a lot of people are talking about as we integrate more and more AI is that prompt injection is an extremely hard thing to defend against because it’s not really clear how you defend against it.

随着我们集成越来越多的人工智能，我认为很多人都在谈论的一件事是，即时注入是一件极其难以防御的事情，因为目前还不清楚如何防御它。

If it’s just a, at the end of the day word calculator make word come out.

如果它只是一个，那么最终单词计算器会让单词出来。

If you can figure out the proper word calculator input, it might just break its bounds and start doing something it’s not supposed to do.

如果你能找出正确的单词计算器输入，它可能会打破它的界限并开始做一些不应该做的事情。

And there’s a whole future word.

还有一个完整的未来词。

1:45:49 There’s all these products that are going to be vulnerable to things they never thought about.

所有这些产品都容易受到他们从未想过的事情的影响。

It’s one thing where you forget an edge case while you’re programming.

在编程时忘记边缘情况是一回事。

Now you have to guess what people might be able to think of making something that has access to a system be able to do.

现在你必须猜测人们可能会想到让有权访问系统的东西能够做什么。

Right.

正确的。

And you don’t have a way to reason about it.

而且你没有办法对此进行推理。

Its reasoning came from Reddit, and other words that it’s read and how to put things together.

它的推理来自 Reddit，以及它所读到的其他文字以及如何将事物组合在一起。

This is a very…

这是一个非常…

It’s a massive space that’s going to be happening.

这是一个即将发生的巨大空间。

It’s why I’m personally thinking don’t give too many powers yet.

这就是为什么我个人认为还不要赋予太多权力。

We don’t know the attacks that are about to happen.

我们不知道即将发生的攻击。

Yeah, the more power we give to software systems, the more damage they can do.

是的，我们赋予软件系统的权力越多，它们造成的损害就越大。

1:46:21 That certainly is the case.

情况确实如此。

But the more awesome they could do, and that’s the knife’s edge that we all walk along as a human civilization together, hand in hand.

但他们能做得越出色，那就是我们作为人类文明一起携手并进的刀刃。

Will we flourish or destroy ourselves?

我们会繁荣还是毁灭自己？

Question mark.

问号。

Folks on Reddit, the good folks on Reddit, demanded that I ask you about the time you broke production.

Reddit 上的人们，Reddit 上的好人们，要求我询问你中断生产的时间。

Is this related to Falco?

这和法尔科有关系吗？

Did you break production?

你中断生产了吗？

Is this fake news?

这是假新闻吗？

I’ve broke production quite a few times.

我已经多次中断生产了。

1:46:48 I’ve broken productions for so many stupid reasons.

我曾因为很多愚蠢的原因而破坏过作品。

One time I broke production because I came up in the PHP and PHP.

有一次我中断了生产，因为我遇到了 PHP 和 PHP。

Static means static for the lifetime of the PHP and PHP was the lifetime of every request, right?

静态意味着 PHP 的生命周期是静态的，PHP 是每个请求的生命周期，对吗？

That’s why PHP was so inefficient was that every request was its own instance, and therefore static memory was for the lifetime.

这就是 PHP 效率如此低下的原因，因为每个请求都是它自己的实例，因此静态内存是终生的。

I guess I never put that together.

我想我从来没有把它们放在一起。

And so I had some objects that I made static because I was like, oh I just need this for the lifetime of the request.

因此，我将一些对象设为静态，因为我想，哦，我只需要在请求的生命周期内使用它。

And lo and behold, those weren’t lifetime.

你瞧，那不是一生。

A whole bunch of bad data got all over the place.

一大堆坏数据遍布各处。

People were showing up saying they were from all these different countries and everything was all wrong because I just…

人们出现说他们来自所有这些不同的国家，一切都错了，因为我只是……

“Whoopsie-daisies.”

“哎哟雏菊。”

1:47:25 I just made a whole conundrum with that.

我刚刚对此提出了一个完整的难题。

So that was one time I did it.

所以那是我做过的一次。

Another time is I took down, if you were on the homepage on the website waiting for Lady Gaga’s video to come out and you were watching the countdown go down, if it reached zero, the billboard would freeze and it wouldn’t work.

还有一次是我记下来了，如果你在网站首页等待Lady Gaga的视频出来，你正在看着倒计时，如果到了零，广告牌就会冻结，不起作用。

If you refreshed it, it would work.

如果你刷新它，它就会起作用。

But the reveal, the big reveal, I screwed that up and my boss got real upset and so did other people in Hollywood got upset about that one.

但是这个揭露，一个重大的揭露，我搞砸了，我的老板非常生气，好莱坞的其他人也对此感到不安。

That was like a, “My bad.

这就像“我的错。

Sorry, Jeff Wagner, again.” I remember that one.

再次抱歉，杰夫·瓦格纳。”我记得那个。

I remember that one specifically.

我特别记得那一个。

One time I released a bug where again on the billboard, if you pressed add to my list, I accidentally programmed in an infinite loop, and your whole webpage would just freeze.

有一次，我发布了一个错误，再次在广告牌上，如果您按下“添加到我的列表”，我不小心编程为无限循环，您的整个网页就会冻结。

Are some of these bugs difficult to discover until you started-

在您开始之前，其中一些错误是否很难发现？

That one seems really easy looking back at it.

现在回想起来，这似乎很容易。

In for a loop?

循环吗？

1:48:17 Yeah.

是的。

And we actually, during those days we had manual QA that are supposed to go through everything.

事实上，在那些日子里，我们有手动质量检查，应该检查所有事情。

1:48:18 So I didn’t feel as bad because my manual QA counterpart also missed it.

所以我并没有感觉那么糟糕，因为我的手动 QA 同行也错过了它。

We all missed it.

我们都错过了。

But it was just so simple.

但事情就是这么简单。

Just press that button, boom.

只要按下那个按钮，繁荣。

It just completely freezes the website.

它只是完全冻结了网站。

Polluting the code with global variables that are holding values, SPHP I think allows you to do, that’s a tricky one to discover, because you rely on it, then there could be somebody else assigns a value to it.

用保存值的​​全局变量污染代码，我认为 SPHP 允许你这样做，这是一个很难发现的问题，因为你依赖它，然后可能会有其他人给它赋值。

Yeah, it’s a data race everywhere.

是的，到处都是数据竞赛。

1:48:47 And I just didn’t understand…

我只是不明白……

In my head static was like, “Oh, this is for the life.” I was just so locked into the PHP world at that time that I just made just such a, looking back on it’s so obvious.

在我的脑海里，静电就像是，“哦，这就是为了生活。”那时我就​​被困在 PHP 世界里了，所以我就做了这样一个，现在回想起来，这是显而易见的。

But during the time, it’s hard.

但期间，很难。

So in general, pushing to production, I talked to Peter levels about this.

因此，总的来说，为了推动生产，我与彼得·水平讨论了这个问题。

1:49:04 He, obvious he’s operating as mostly a solo developer, but he often on the website said thousands, not hundreds of thousands of people use.

显然，他主要是作为一名独立开发者进行运营，但他经常在网站上说有数千人，而不是数十万人使用。

He often ships to production, pushes to production, meaning just no testing, just like push to fix.

他经常将产品交付到生产环境，推送到生产环境，这意味着不需要测试，就像推送修复一样。

What are the pros and cons of that approach in general to you?

对您来说，这种方法的优点和缺点是什么？

What do you think?

你怎么认为？

It’s obviously much easier the smaller your organization is.

您的组织越小，这显然会容易得多。

1:49:31 I think no one would argue that sentiment.

我想没有人会反驳这种观点。

If it’s just you working on a singular project, it is obviously much easier for you to push directly to production because you are the only one working.

如果只有您在处理一个项目，那么直接投入生产显然会更容易，因为您是唯一一个在工作的人。

You know all the ins and outs and if something were to break, you would discover it.

你知道所有的来龙去脉，如果有什么东西坏了，你会发现它。

So to me that makes sense.

所以对我来说这是有道理的。

I think the way he operates is perfect for what he does.

我认为他的运作方式非常适合他所做的事情。

You couldn’t take what he does and move it to say Microsoft or Netflix or Google because that would obviously…

你不能接受他所做的事情并将其移至“微软”、“Netflix”或“谷歌”，因为这显然会……

It would just be a disaster, just due to the amount of people all pushing to production.

这将是一场灾难，因为大量的人都在推动生产。

And so I personally love that.

所以我个人很喜欢这一点。

I think that you have to gauge both the application you’re building and its complexity and what you’re pushing, and how many people are working on it.

我认为你必须衡量你正在构建的应用程序及其复杂性以及你正在推动的内容，以及有多少人正在开发它。

1:50:15 I think those all go into how you can do that.

我认为这些都涉及到如何做到这一点。

Because not all applications are created equal either.

因为并非所有应用程序都是一样的。

That application I was making was zooming and scrolling where we had all of our own everything.

我正在制作的应用程序是缩放和滚动的，我们拥有自己的一切。

It was a very deep heavy logic app, and that was regardless of what was happening on the website, most of the code was library code.

这是一个非常深的重型逻辑应用程序，无论网站上发生什么，大部分代码都是库代码。

And that becomes way harder if you don’t have a good test suite and stuff to run before you push it out.

如果您在推出之前没有良好的测试套件和需要运行的东西，那么这会变得更加困难。

Because when you squeeze that ball, different things come popping out in different areas.

因为当你挤压那个球时，不同的区域会弹出不同的东西。

And that’s a very harder problem than say if you’re doing more of a heavy visual one because a heavy visual one, you’re affecting just this one area’s visual stuff and you can test it and that’s normally the end of it.

这是一个非常困难的问题，比说如果你做更多的重型视觉任务，因为重型视觉任务，你只影响这个区域的视觉内容，你可以测试它，通常就结束了。

1:50:57 Whereas, you know…

然而，你知道……

So it depends on the coupling and everything.

所以这取决于耦合和一切。

So I love his approach by the way.

所以顺便说一句，我喜欢他的方法。

I have such mad respect for anyone that operates that way because I think is a great way, it just is so good because it breaks this notion that tech Twitter has that oh well you have to use all these expensive services, you need to use all these things because if you don’t use all this stuff, “If you’re not using the latest version of React, if you’re not using the latest version of this, you’re simply not going to make it as a startup.

我非常尊重任何以这种方式运作的人，因为我认为这是一个很好的方式，它是如此的好，因为它打破了科技 Twitter 的观念，哦好吧，你必须使用所有这些昂贵的服务，你需要使用所有这些东西，因为如果你不使用所有这些东西，“如果你不使用最新版本的 React，如果你不使用最新版本的这个，你根本就不会成为一家初创公司。

It’s impossible.” And it’s just like, “No, no, that’s not software.” Most of software isn’t the new stuff.

这是不可能的。”就像，“不，不，那不是软件。”大多数软件都不是新东西。

Most of software is old crappy software that someone has to maintain, and it actually is really, really great and has lots of really hard problems.

大多数软件都是旧的蹩脚软件，需要有人维护，但它实际上非常非常好，并且有很多非常困难的问题。

And if you look at it differently, it’s actually fantastic.

如果你以不同的方式看待它，它实际上非常棒。

For people who don’t know his tech stack, in terms of web development is PHP, jQuery and SQL.

对于那些不了解他的技术栈的人来说，就 Web 开发而言，就是 PHP、jQuery 和 SQL。

Yeah, all great stuff.

是的，都是很棒的东西。

1:51:45 I’m just surprised he still uses jQuery just given the fact that at this point on the modern web, everything is, you have document query selector and ad event listener click, right?

我只是很惊讶他仍然使用 jQuery，因为在现代网络上，一切都是这样的，你有文档查询选择器和广告事件监听器点击，对吗？

It pretty much has everything you already need.

它几乎拥有您需要的一切。

It had DOM content load, all the reasons I used jQuery back in the day was adding a click on a button was hard.

它有 DOM 内容加载，我当时使用 jQuery 的所有原因是添加按钮上的点击很困难。

You had to deal with IE7, IE8, IE9.

你必须处理 IE7、IE8、IE9。

Those are hard differences.

这些都是很困难的差异。

Whereas now, it’s just so easy.

而现在，一切就这么简单。

I’m just surprised it’s even that.

我只是很惊讶竟然是这样。

That’s definitely a trade-off.

这绝对是一个权衡。

1:52:13 I still use the exact same stack, PHP, jQuery and different flavors of SQL.

我仍然使用完全相同的堆栈、PHP、jQuery 和不同风格的 SQL。

But the question there is you keep using jQuery because you can get the job done really fast and there’s no significant performance hit that you detect.

但问题是您继续使用 jQuery，因为您可以非常快地完成工作，并且您没有检测到显着的性能影响。

So like why swish to something else?

那么为什么要选择别的东西呢？

But it’s always probably as we’ll talk about good to explore and to learn.

但这总是可能的，因为我们会谈论探索和学习的好处。

Not all tools are great at solving all problems.

并非所有工具都能很好地解决所有问题。

1:52:39 And so what you think is really the problem is you run into this trade off, which is you have some tool belt that you’re very adept with, you know all the ins and outs.

所以你认为真正的问题是你遇到了这种权衡，那就是你有一些你非常擅长的工具带，你知道所有的来龙去脉。

There’s no unknown unknowns, but there’s no surprises in this.

没有未知的未知，但也没有什么意外。

You know what you’re building, you know what you’re getting into.

您知道自己正在构建什么，也知道自己正在进入什么领域。

You will go through and you’ll be able to solve the problem.

你会经历并能够解决问题。

But if you ever use a different language or a different experience, you can find that some things are able to represent states way easier, in a way more efficient way.

但如果你使用不同的语言或不同的经历，你会发现有些东西能够更容易、更有效地表示状态。

And you can solve problems really efficiently in some versus the other.

与其他问题相比，你可以真正有效地解决某些问题。

And so it’s like if you don’t take the time to explore as well, you could be missing out on something that makes you twice as good on this one specific problem like subset.

因此，如果你不花时间去探索，你可能会错过一些能让你在这个特定问题上表现加倍的东西，比如子集。

And so I value being able to look at all problems.

因此，我很重视能够审视所有问题。

And so I don’t want to get stuck on one thing though.

所以我不想困在一件事上。

I see why people do, which is for the efficiency sake.

我明白人们为什么这样做，这是为了效率。

Let’s just return to the infrastructure of the platform of Netflix and, speak more generally, Netflix, Twitch, YouTube.

让我们回到 Netflix 平台的基础设施，更笼统地说，Netflix、Twitch、YouTube。

1:53:34 Anytime I use any of these services, I’m just blown away by the infrastructure it takes to deliver this service.

每当我使用这些服务中的任何一个时，我都会对提供该服务所需的基础设施感到震惊。

YouTube and Twitch are unique, versus Netflix where the creators can roll in themselves and upload stuff.

YouTube 和 Twitch 是独一无二的，而 Netflix 的创作者可以自行参与并上传内容。

So on the consumption side, YouTube has over 100 billion views a day, over one billion hours watch time.

所以在消费方面，YouTube每天的观看次数超过1000亿次，观看时间超过10亿小时。

But on the creator side, one million hours of videos are uploaded every day.

但在创作者方面，每天上传的视频有100万小时。

One million hours.

一百万小时。

It’s like you have to service both and you have to deliver everything…

这就像你必须为两者提供服务，并且你必须提供一切......

It’s just incredible to me.

这对我来说简直难以置信。

Can you maybe speak to your own intuition, just zooming out on it, what it takes to deliver that kind of infrastructure?

您能否谈谈您自己的直觉，只是缩小范围，交付这种基础设施需要什么？

For me, the thing that I find vastly complicated and I can’t imagine the engineering hours, is how do you even create an edge in that situation?

对我来说，我发现非常复杂并且无法想象工程时间的事情是如何在这种情况下创造优势？

1:54:25 And what I mean by an edge, when people say this phrase, if you’re unexperienced, an edge is where you deliver data.

我所说的优势是什么意思，当人们说这句话时，如果你没有经验，优势就是你提供数据的地方。

You want that edge to be as close to the customer as possible because that’s where the data lives.

您希望该边缘尽可能靠近客户，因为那是数据所在的地方。

And then the communication between the customer and what you’re doing is really, really small.

然后客户和你正在做的事情之间的沟通非常非常小。

Obviously the speed of light adds up, the amount of hops adds up, the amount of services that you have to remotely call adds up.

显然，光速加起来，跳数加起来，你必须远程调用的服务数量加起来。

1:54:54 They all add up and they all add inefficiencies to the system.

它们加起来就会导致系统效率低下。

So something like YouTube, they want to be able to serve that data as quick as possible, but their data changes constantly and relevance is almost directly tied with the newness of the item.

像 YouTube 这样的网站，他们希望能够尽快提供数据，但他们的数据不断变化，相关性几乎与项目的新颖性直接相关。

So it’s like how do you even cache these things out?

那么这就像你如何缓存这些东西呢？

How are you doing this?

你怎么做这个？

So they must have such an incredible caching network that I can’t even…

所以他们一定有一个令人难以置信的缓存网络，我什至不能……

I can’t even fathom what it takes to do that.

我什至无法理解需要什么才能做到这一点。

That just to me is just so impressive.

这对我来说真是太令人印象深刻了。

A million view hours in how many different resolutions with how much data?

一百万小时的观看时间，有多少种不同的分辨率和多少数据？

What is a million view hours?

什么是百万观看小时？

Is it 4K million view hours, along with 1080p, along with 720p, along with 1440p?

是 4K 百万观看小时、1080p、720p、1440p 吗？

That number is an insane number.

这个数字是一个疯狂的数字。

Actually, it is brilliant what you said, which is for YouTube often the new thing is extremely important to show to everybody.

事实上，你说的很精彩，对于 YouTube 来说，向大家展示新事物往往是极其重要的。

1:55:33 And so, you can’t rely on caching or trivial kind of caching.

因此，您不能依赖缓存或简单的缓存。

Yeah.

是的。

You have to deliver the new thing as quickly as possible.

你必须尽快交付新东西。

1:55:48 Yeah, it’s incredible.

是的，这太不可思议了。

So there’s the entire system, the recommendation system that knows each individual human watching YouTube and it has to integrate into that the new thing, while also caching this incredible cluster of possible videos that you’re potentially interested in.

因此，整个系统、推荐系统都知道每个观看 YouTube 的人，它必须集成到新事物中，同时还缓存这些令人难以置信的您可能感兴趣的可能视频。

And integrate into that ads in the case of YouTube and so on.

并整合到 YouTube 等广告中。

It’s a really tough problem because you have to think what is the cash hit rate on this?

这是一个非常棘手的问题，因为你必须考虑这个问题的现金命中率是多少？

1:56:19 Because the problem now actually comes down to space, space actually becomes a real problem.

因为现在问题实际上归结为空间，空间实际上成为一个真正的问题。

How many hundreds of petabytes do they have that they have for like, “Okay, what do we cache and where do we cache this?” The number, I think in the terms of gigabytes or maybe megabytes, they have to think in probably versions of bytes I don’t even know the name for right?

他们有多少数百 PB 的数据，比如“好吧，我们缓存什么？我们缓存在哪里？”我认为这个数字以千兆字节或兆字节为单位，他们必须以我什至不知道其名称的可能版本来思考？

It’s such a different problem and that’s why I said Netflix.

这是一个完全不同的问题，这就是我说 Netflix 的原因。

Netflix has a much easier job when it comes to caching.

Netflix 在缓存方面的工作要容易得多。

So if you’ve never looked it up, it’s called OCA and that we know what videos we’re releasing, we know what videos are hot in specific areas.

因此，如果您从未查过，它被称为 OCA，我们知道我们要发布哪些视频，我们知道哪些视频在特定领域很热门。

It’s a very limited set.

这是一个非常有限的集合。

We’re not going to all of a sudden get, “Oopsies, we got a million new view hours.” We don’t even have to worry about that as a problem.

我们不会突然得到，“哎呀，我们有了一百万个新的观看小时数。”我们甚至不必担心这是一个问题。

So it’s like, “Okay, we know Stranger Things season five’s about to drop, we’re going to pre-cash Stranger Things season five in every single OCA across the world because that thing’s about to get hammered.” And so it’s like it’s able to do such a different decision-making than what you have to do with something like YouTube.

所以这就像是，“好吧，我们知道《怪奇物语》第五季即将结束，我们将在世界各地的每个 OCA 中为《怪奇物语》第五季预付现金，因为这件事即将受到重击。”因此，与 YouTube 等网站相比，它能够做出如此不同的决策。

And then Twitch is even more wild because now you’re actually ingesting video and trying to make it go out all at the exact same time for all video and you have to transform that video from whatever format and whatever the bit rate is into something that’s more efficient in the system like that.

然后 Twitch 就更疯狂了，因为现在你实际上正在摄取视频并试图使其在所有视频的同一时间全部输出，并且你必须将该视频从任何格式和比特率转换为在此类系统中更有效的东西。

Hats off to Twitch engineering, because that’s some serious work.

向 Twitch 工程人员致敬，因为这是一项严肃的工作。

And here’s some asshole, Lex, coming out and tweeting about YouTube features.

有个混蛋，Lex，出来发推文谈论 YouTube 的功能。

1:57:44 Listen…

听……

You’re not wrong on the features you asked for, though.

不过，您所要求的功能并没有错。

I think this is an engineering problem of how do you allow fast iteration and addition of features that shouldn’t have to be integrated or impact the whole code base.

我认为这是一个工程问题，即如何允许快速迭代和添加不应集成或影响整个代码库的功能。

1:57:56 So at the edges of the code base improve on certain features, without having to consult the mothership of the code.

因此，在代码库的边缘改进某些功能，而无需咨询代码的母体。

It’s the large team, right?

这是一个大团队，对吧？

1:58:19 That’s the fundamental problem.

这是根本问题。

When you get into YouTube size, there is the team/organization that deals with data warehousing.

当您进入 YouTube 规模时，就会有处理数据仓库的团队/组织。

There’s the team slash organization that deals with delivery.

有一个负责交付的团队削减组织。

There’s a team slash organization that’s like the middle layer, how you even…

有一个团队斜线组织，就像中间层，你甚至……

They’re going to be like the little micro-surfaces to talk to these places.

它们将像小微表面一样与这些地方对话。

Then you have this front-end engine.

然后你就有了这个前端引擎。

So for a small feature, you have to get middle team, you have to get backend team, you have to get all these things.

因此，对于一个小功能，你必须得到中间团队，你必须得到后端团队，你必须得到所有这些东西。

Quick example, Netflix.

举个简单的例子，Netflix。

Are you familiar with the dystopian, Black Mirror?

你熟悉反乌托邦电影《黑镜》吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

1:58:51 Season one, episode one.

第一季，第一集。

Do you know season one, episode one?

你知道第一季第一集吗？

Everyone who watches Black Mirror typically knows this episode.

看过《黑镜》的人都知道这一集。

Okay, yeah.

好吧，是的。

1:58:57 I don’t remember what it is.

我不记得那是什么了。

Forgive my language, but they call it the pig-fucker episode.

请原谅我的语言，但他们称之为“猪他妈的插曲”。

Oh yeah, of course.

哦，是的，当然。

Once you’ve seen the episode, you will then know this episode.

当你看过这一集之后，你就会知道这一集。

1:59:02 Well, when Netflix adopted it, I got pulled into a room, there’s like a VP, a product designer, a VP, and they said, Hey, we’re about to release our own version of Black Mirror, season three, I think at that time.

好吧，当 Netflix 采用它时，我被拉进一个房间，里面有一位副总裁、一位产品设计师、一位副总裁，他们说，嘿，我想当时我们即将发布我们自己版本的《黑镜》第三季。

We need episode one, season one to not be the first thing people see.

我们需要第一集、第一季不要成为人们首先看到的东西。

So let’s just reverse the season order.

因此，让我们颠倒季节顺序。

That required me…

这需要我……

I had like 20 engineers I had to gather together to be able to have this happen.

我必须召集大约 20 名工程师才能实现这一目标。

And that’s just the problem of big companies is that eventually every little thing has to become its own team.

这正是大公司的问题所在，最终每件小事都必须成为自己的团队。

And so even small…

所以即使很小……

There’s no such thing as a small feature.

没有什么是小功能。

Reversing the order of the dropdown that selects the seasons is a meeting with a bunch of VPs and engineers.

颠倒选择季节的下拉菜单的顺序是与一群副总裁和工程师的会议。

1:59:42 That’s really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

Yeah.

是的。

There’s got to be a way to accelerate that.

必须有一种方法来加速这一过程。

1:59:50 The natural scaling of a company and the bureaucracy that grows, yes, slows that down.

是的，公司的自然规模和不断增长的官僚机构会减慢这一速度。

But just having seen Elon work a lot, his teams are able to still keep it very fast, even as the company grows.

但只要看到埃隆工作了很多，他的团队仍然能够保持非常快的速度，即使公司在发展。

There’s got to be a process to doing that, especially for the pig-fucker episode.

必须有一个过程才能做到这一点，尤其是对于猪他妈的那一集。

I don’t know where that’s in the priority list, but for important things like that, you should be able to do that quickly.

我不知道它在优先级列表中的位置，但对于这样重要的事情，你应该能够快速完成。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

Can you speak to how would you do that?

你能谈谈你会怎么做吗？

Well, I can tell first how it was done.

好吧，我可以先说说它是如何完成的。

2:00:25 Remember…

记住……

So at a place like Netflix, there would be…

所以在 Netflix 这样的地方，会有……

I think that at that point it’s called a product called Dexter.

我认为那时它被称为 Dexter 产品。

I can’t remember.

我不记得了。

There’s our actual movie metadata warehouse that’s going to be highly integrated with Hollywood, where that side is able to manage all that.

我们实际的电影元数据仓库将与好莱坞高度集成，好莱坞方面能够管理所有这些。

So I’m like, “Hey, you need the ability to mark things that need to be reversed because we’re going to run into this a bunch.” And we did.

所以我想，“嘿，你需要能够标记需要逆转的事情，因为我们会遇到很多这样的事情。”我们做到了。

We ran into quite a few topical shows that all need to be reversed and all that.

我们遇到了很多热门节目，所有这些都需要逆转。

And so it’s like, “We need to be able to reverse episode numbers, season numbers.

就像这样，“我们需要能够反转剧集编号、季数。

We need to be able to hide season or episode numbers.”

我们需要能够隐藏季数或集数。”

2:00:58 In the case of the Chelsea Handler Show, it was like a daily show, so it’s like you don don’t need episode numbers, you just need the latest one.

就《切尔西·汉德勒秀》而言，它就像一场每日秀，所以就好像你不需要剧集编号，你只需要最新的一集。

And so there’s this whole problem that exists.

所以这整个问题就存在了。

And so it’s like, “Okay, you need to work on that for your UI over there, then you need to be able to store that data.

就像，“好吧，你需要为你的 UI 做这些工作，然后你需要能够存储这些数据。

Then we need to be able to go to the people that can actually get the video data out of that and provide it to our service layer.

然后我们需要能够找到能够真正从中获取视频数据并将其提供给我们的服务层的人。

I need to go talk to them and convince them they need to be able to give me the new methods and everything to do that.

我需要去和他们交谈并说服他们，他们需要能够为我提供新的方法和一切来做到这一点。

Then I need to be able to go write the methods to get it down, and then I need to go to the UI and make that accessible.

然后我需要能够编写方法来获取它，然后我需要转到 UI 并使其可访问。

Now I need to go to the website people, I need to go to the mobile people, I need to go to the TV people.”

现在我需要去找网站人员，我需要去找移动人员，我需要去找电视人员。”

Yeah.

是的。

And so it’s like, you could see this thing like snowballing.

所以就像，你可以看到像滚雪球一样的事情。

2:01:32 And for us, the big thing that Netflix did that was so well is after I met with these people that were high level, I was the captain.

对我们来说，Netflix 做得如此出色的一件大事就是在我会见了这些高层之后，我成为了队长。

“I’m the captain now.” So I went to all these teams and said, “Hey manager, I need an engineer.

“我现在是队长了。”所以我去找所有这些团队说：“嘿经理，我需要一名工程师。

We need to get this done within the next couple of months because we got Black Mirror coming out.” So she would go, “Okay, here you go.” “The map team, I need someone to help me with being able to get data out of the lomo for this.” And so it’s like, “All right, you’re working with this engineering.”

我们需要在接下来的几个月内完成这项工作，因为《黑镜》即将上映。”所以她会说：“好吧，给你。” “地图团队，我需要有人帮助我从 lomo 中获取数据。”就像，“好吧，你正在从事这项工程工作。”

2:01:59 I’d go to the BMS team, “Okay, I need this engineer.” I’d go to the billboard team, “I need this engineer.” I go to all these little places to get all these little pieces of data.

我会去找 BMS 团队，“好吧，我需要这位工程师。”我会去找广告牌团队，“我需要这位工程师。”我去所有这些小地方来获取所有这些小数据。

And then I was the captain, I was like, “You’re working on this, you’re doing this, you’re doing this, you’re doing this, I’m doing this.

然后我是队长，我说，“你正在做这个，你正在做这个，你正在做这个，你正在做这个，我正在做这个。

Let’s go.” It’s like that worked.

我们走吧。”就像那样有效。

And we were able to go pretty fast for a big company.

对于一家大公司来说，我们能够发展得相当快。

And the fact that it required 20 engineers to do such a simple task, we were able to do it in, gosh, I’d say about three weeks worth of effort.

事实上，它需要 20 名工程师来完成如此简单的任务，我们能够完成它，天哪，我想说大约需要三周的努力。

But that was still…

但那仍然是……

I thought that was amazing, comparatively, to how many people move.

相比之下，有多少人搬家，我认为这是令人惊讶的。

Well, because you have the freedom of the agency to do it.

嗯，因为机构有这样做的自由。

2:02:29 You said the captain of the ship.

你说的是船长。

That’s really powerful.

这真的很强大。

For big companies, that’s a risk.

对于大公司来说，这是一个风险。

Because you can fuck it up.

因为你可以搞砸它。

You might not see the bigger context legally the bigger context of the impact on the industry or all the contracts that are made, all that.

您可能看不到法律上更大的背景，对行业或所有签订的合同的影响的更大背景，所有这些。

So it’s a risk, it’s a risk, but it’s a risk you have to keep taking.

所以这是一个风险，这是一个风险，但你必须继续承担这个风险。

And then when you fuck up, you fix, and then maybe pay the cost legally for that, whatever.

然后当你搞砸了，你就修复，然后可能会为此合法地支付费用，无论如何。

But the long term, that risk pays off because you’re going to keep creating a better and better product, evolving where the industry is going, constantly innovating ahead of where the industry is going and so on.

但从长远来看，这种风险是有回报的，因为你将不断创造出越来越好的产品，不断发展行业发展方向，不断创新，领先于行业发展方向等等。

Yeah.

是的。

And not only that, I think one thing that is just so important is that yes, the product will get better, but the people that you hire and the people that you keep around are better because they’re the ones that show maturity.

不仅如此，我认为非常重要的一件事是，是的，产品会变得更好，但你雇用的人和你保留的人会更好，因为他们是那些表现出成熟的人。

2:03:08 They’re the ones that can just…

他们是那些能够……

You give them something and they can rally the troops and make something happen.

你给他们一些东西，他们就可以集结军队并做出一些事情。

That’s a very great group of people to hire.

这是一群非常值得雇用的人。

And so you also naturally select out great engineers that aren’t just simply good at coding, they’re good at coding and they’re good at explaining and they’re good at convincing.

因此，你自然会挑选出优秀的工程师，他们不仅擅长编码，还擅长编码、擅长解释、擅长说服。

And you have to create a very lean audience that can move fast.

而且你必须创建一个非常精干且能够快速移动的受众群体。

And I think for great engineers, having to wait for like, “Okay, let’s schedule a meeting for next Wednesday with the VPs and…” That destroys their soul.

我认为对于伟大的工程师来说，必须等待“好吧，让我们安排下周三与副总裁开会……”这会摧毁他们的灵魂。

2:03:40 And they either don’t want to contribute anymore or they leave the companies or they just tune out and take the golden handcuffs and just buy a nice house and focus on a family.

他们要么不想再做出贡献，要么离开公司，要么干脆闭嘴，戴上金手铐，买一栋漂亮的房子，专注于家庭。

Yeah.

是的。

2:04:04 I feel like I would die under that…

我感觉我会死在那个之下……

Honestly, that is my death sentence is where it’s just that there’s no reason to try, there’s no reason to do anything.

老实说，这就是我的死刑，只是没有理由去尝试，没有理由做任何事情。

I’m just going to go in there, effectively zombie through my day and call it…

我只是要去那里，有效地度过我的一天，然后称之为……

I don’t want to live like that.

我不想那样生活。

I want to feel like I’m trying to do something.

我想要感觉自己正在尝试做某事。

I should also mention on top of that, so you’ve brilliantly laid out how incredible the challenge that Netflix has to solve.

除此之外，我还应该提一下，您出色地阐述了 Netflix 必须解决的挑战是多么令人难以置信。

2:04:22 On top of that with YouTube, the metadata thing, because users are able to upload video and there’s an API where they can upload automatically and change all this kind of stuff automatically.

最重要的是 YouTube，还有元数据，因为用户可以上传视频，并且有一个 API，他们可以自动上传并自动更改所有此类内容。

Every one of those things is an attack vector, as we mentioned.

正如我们提到的，这些事情中的每一个都是一种攻击媒介。

That’s something they have to consider seriously on the engineering side.

这是他们在工程方面必须认真考虑的事情。

And on the legal side, they can get into trouble all kinds of ways.

在法律方面，他们可能会以各种方式陷入麻烦。

So they have to consider all of that, which is fascinating.

所以他们必须考虑所有这些，这很有趣。

The legal side is obvious, but it’s not really like…

法律方面是显而易见的，但事实并非如此……

2:04:59 I would never have initially thought someone would, say, upload images that you’re not allowed to own or have.

我最初绝不会想到有人会上传你不被允许拥有或拥有的图像。

But that guarantee you that happens.

但这保证你会发生这种情况。

Then you have the whole kid side, right?

那么你就拥有了整个孩子的一面，对吗？

I think about when you mark something as kid-friendly, how many times have they snuck porn into a Taylor Swift video or whatever?

我想，当你将某些内容标记为适合儿童时，他们有多少次将色情内容偷偷放入泰勒·斯威夫特的视频或其他内容中？

That was like a few years back, there was that whole Taylor Swift or whatever.

就像几年前，还有泰勒·斯威夫特之类的。

I forget what it was, I thought it was Taylor Swift.

我忘了那是什么了，我以为是泰勒·斯威夫特。

But there’d be these mock videos that’d come up and then, boom.

但会有这些模拟视频出现，然后，繁荣。

It’s like, that is such an awful problem and I’m so happy that is not a problem.

就像，这是一个非常可怕的问题，我很高兴这不是一个问题。

I have to try to figure out.

我必须想办法弄清楚。

Okay.

好的。

2:05:32 So yes, YouTube and Twitch and Netflix are doing an incredible job.

所以，是的，YouTube、Twitch 和 Netflix 正在做着令人难以置信的工作。

You eventually chose, the madman you are, to leave Netflix and to start on a new journey of being a wolf pack of one, start streaming.

你这个疯子最终选择离开 Netflix，开始成为狼群的新旅程，开始流媒体。

What was that?

那是什么？

What was the story of that?

那是怎样的故事呢？

So I was streaming for almost seven years now.

所以我直播已经快七年了。

2:05:52 It started actually at Netflix.

它实际上是从 Netflix 开始的。

We did a charity, Extra Life, shout out to Extra Life for starting my streaming career, effectively is just you stream and whatever money you raise, it goes to Kids with Cancer research.

我们做了一个慈善机构“Extra Life”，感谢 Extra Life 开始了我的流媒体生涯，实际上就是你的流媒体，无论你筹集到什么钱，它都将用于患有癌症的儿童研究。

They are a great charity in the sense that they take no overhead and they raise their own donations for their website and everything.

他们是一个伟大的慈善机构，因为他们不承担任何管理费用，并且为他们的网站和一切筹集自己的捐款。

And so it’s a very great, straightforward charity.

所以这是一个非常伟大、直接的慈善机构。

Really love what they’ve done.

真的很喜欢他们所做的事情。

It was super cool because I live in South Dakota now, but I actually could choose a hospital directly where the money goes to.

这太酷了，因为我现在住在南达科他州，但实际上我可以直接选择资金流向的医院。

So there’s a direct impact from A to B.

所以从A到B有直接影响。

So it’s a pretty cool organization.

所以这是一个非常酷的组织。

And so my friend, Guy Cirino, Nice Try Guy is what I like to call him, he was probably the single greatest engineer I’ve ever met in my lifetime.

所以我的朋友盖伊·西里诺（Guy Cirino），我喜欢这样称呼他，他可能是我一生中见过的最伟大的工程师。

2:06:37 And he was just like, “Hey, come do this.

他就像是，“嘿，来吧。

We’re going to all do this.” So I played Fortnite.

我们都会这样做。”所以我玩了《堡垒之夜》。

So before I did that, I was like, oh, I better learn how to stream first.

所以在我这样做之前，我想，哦，我最好先学习如何直播。

I better get affiliated so I can take subscriptions.

我最好加入会员，这样我就可以订阅。

And then if anyone gives me a subscription, I’ll also pay that forward.

然后，如果有人给我订阅，我也会将其转发。

So June 2018 or something like that, I start, I start streaming and I start streaming some Fortnite.

所以 2018 年 6 月或者类似的事情，我开始，我开始直播，我开始直播一些《堡垒之夜》。

End up getting affiliated, end up doing the whole extra life thing.

最终变得附属，最终做所有额外的生活事情。

I end up really enjoying it.

我最终真的很享受它。

I’m like, “This is a lot of fun.” I’m playing Fortnite at that point.

我想，“这很有趣。”那时我正在玩《堡垒之夜》。

Okay, so mind you, I’m a Fortnite streamer at that point, and I start really enjoying it.

好吧，请注意，那时我是《堡垒之夜》的主播，我开始真正享受它。

I keep doing it and then one day I decide I’m going to do some programming.

我一直这样做，然后有一天我决定要做一些编程。

Because I really love Vim and I think I’m fast at Vim, and maybe people think programming is cool.

因为我真的很喜欢 Vim，而且我认为我在 Vim 上很快，也许人们认为编程很酷。

Because there was no really programming section at that point.

因为那时还没有真正的编程部分。

2:07:22 And I did it.

我做到了。

I had like 30 people show up, which was just…

我有大约 30 个人出现，这只是......

And it felt like incredible numbers at that point.

那时感觉这个数字令人难以置信。

So I was like, “Oh my gosh, there’s like 30 people watching me program.” So it just kept on going and it kept on happening and it just kept on growing.

所以我当时想，“天哪，大约有 30 个人在看我的节目。”所以它一直在继续，一直在发生，一直在增长。

And I did it for year after year.

我年复一年地这样做。

I would do my job, I would come home, I’d eat dinner with the kiddos, I would read them Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit during that time, I’d read to them for a half an hour, then I’d set that down.

我会做我的工作，我会回家，我会和孩子们一起吃晚饭，在那段时间我会给他们读《指环王》和《霍比特人》，我会给他们读半个小时，然后我把它写下来。

And then three nights a week I would program until like 2:00 in the morning or play video games until 2:00 in the morning streaming and building up this whole side thing.

然后每周三个晚上我都会编程直到凌晨 2:00 或玩视频游戏直到凌晨 2:00 流媒体并建立整个副业。

And I did this for a long, long time, and then eventually it just kept working out so well and I started making YouTube videos.

我这样做了很长很长一段时间，最后效果一直很好，我开始制作 YouTube 视频。

And then that started getting better.

然后情况开始好转。

And it was just a long, long grind until April of last year.

直到去年四月，这只是一个漫长的磨练。

2:08:08 I went to the Streamer Awards and I got to announce the programming category and Pirate SoftwareOne.

我参加了 Streamer Awards，并宣布了编程类别和 Pirate SoftwareOne。

It was awesome.

太棒了。

It was a great time.

那是一段美好的时光。

And during that time he gave me a challenge coin and just said, “You just got to go for it.

在那段时间里，他给了我一枚挑战币，然后说：“你必须去争取。

Just go full time.” And so I just sat there and my wife can attest to it.

就全职吧。”所以我只是坐在那里，我的妻子可以证明这一点。

It was like an emotional turmoil thing and it just took a lot of, it was pretty awful because Netflix is very safe option.

这就像一场情绪动荡的事情，花了很多时间，这非常糟糕，因为 Netflix 是非常安全的选择。

It was both very fun.

两者都很有趣。

It was challenging.

这很有挑战性。

I liked a lot of the people worked with, it was overall a really great thing.

我喜欢很多一起工作的人，总的来说这是一件很棒的事情。

I had a really great boss, really appreciated him.

我有一个非常出色的老板，非常感谢他。

I still have text him now and then he’s really great guy.

我现在仍然给他发短信，他真的是一个很棒的人。

So it’s just like I’m leaving all these things for something that’s unsure.

所以这就好像我为了一些不确定的事情而放弃了所有这些事情。

And the reality is that streaming and all these things, people love you one day, they could hate you the next day.

现实是，流媒体和所有这些东西，人们有一天爱你，第二天他们可能会恨你。

There’s all this stuff that goes into being on the public side.

所有这些东西都是在公共方面出现的。

2:09:04 And I had Netflix as the backing, so it’s like if public hated me the next day I’d be like, deuces, I’m out.

而且我有 Netflix 作为支持，所以如果第二天公众讨厌我，我会说，平局，我出局了。

I don’t care now it’s like, now I’m going to do this as a job.

我现在不在乎，现在我要把它当作一份工作。

And so there’s a whole huge turmoil to this whole thing that went through it.

因此，整个事件经历了巨大的混乱。

And eventually I just said, okay, I’m going to make this.

最后我只是说，好吧，我要做这个。

It resonated with me when I first made the decision to join Netflix.

当我第一次决定加入 Netflix 时，它引起了我的共鸣。

I’m getting older.

我变老了。

There’s not a lot of chances to do something unusual.

做不寻常事情的机会并不多。

Those chances go down constantly.

这些机会不断下降。

As you get older, this might be the last crazy thing I get to do.

随着年龄的增长，这可能是我做的最后一件疯狂的事情。

Let’s just try it.

我们来试试吧。

So in April I went full-time and I guess I haven’t looked back.

所以四月份我开始全职工作，我想我再也没有回头。

I’m only not even a year into doing this as a full-time gig.

我全职做这件事还不到一年。

And it’s just been a lot of fun.

这很有趣。

And the biggest thing is just being able to really explore and do these things on stream where people really enjoy watching and engaging.

最重要的是能够在人们真正喜欢观看和参与的直播中真正探索和做这些事情。

It’s been a great, hard, fun, amazing, difficult experience.

这是一次伟大的、艰难的、有趣的、令人惊奇的、困难的经历。

It’s a really inspiring leap.

这真是一次鼓舞人心的飞跃。

2:10:02 It’s a really hard one to take for many reasons, like you outlined, but also the loneliness of it, I think it’s a pretty lonely pursuit.

正如您所概述的，由于多种原因，这确实很难接受，而且它的孤独感，我认为这是一种非常孤独的追求。

It is.

这是。

Just you and the camera and the audience and the ups and downs of that.

只有你、摄像机、观众以及其中的起起落落。

2:10:15 And there’s not really a team.

而且实际上并没有一个团队。

I do have one lucky thing I’d say that, my editor, Flip, shout out Flip.

我确实有一件幸运的事，我要说的是，我的编辑 Flip，大声喊出 Flip。

Flip, shout out.

翻转，大喊一声。

He said it would mean the world to him if I said, “Shout out, Flip.”

他说如果我说“大声喊出来，小菲”，这对他来说意味着整个世界。

I love you, Flip.

我爱你，弗利普。

2:10:28 We all love you.

我们都爱你。

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

2:10:31 He had, as he would say, he had nothing going for him.

正如他自己所说，他一事无成。

He had a really hard growing up.

他的成长过程非常艰难。

A lot of rough life decisions have gone into his life and he’s crawling back out of it.

他的生活中已经做出了很多艰难的人生决定，而他正在从中爬出来。

And he just said, Hey, I’ll edit full-time for you.

他只是说，嘿，我会全职为你编辑。

So I just said, “All right, like 50/50, whatever I make on YouTube, you get.

所以我只是说，“好吧，就像 50/50 一样，无论我在 YouTube 上做什么，你都可以得到。

We’re going to do this together.” And we did that for years, making $0 a month pretty much.

我们将一起做这件事。”我们这样做了很多年，每月几乎赚 0 美元。

And so it’s just like that was an incredible jump and now we get to work together.

所以这就像是一个令人难以置信的飞跃，现在我们可以一起工作。

So I do get that one team aspect that I think is really nice.

所以我确实得到了我认为非常好的团队方面。

But it’s not like it was at Netflix where I could hear about stuff people are building, I don’t have a team, I don’t have product or cycles, I don’t have a manager that I have to try to make happy.

但这与在 Netflix 不同，我可以听到人们正在开发的东西，我没有团队，没有产品或周期，也没有需要让经理高兴的人。

It’s just like…

就像……

It is very lonely.

这是非常孤独的。

And I don’t think a lot of people realize how lonely it actually can be.

我认为很多人都没有意识到它实际上有多孤独。

Yeah.

是的。

2:11:19 So combine that loneliness with, in my case, I don’t know how many people attack you.

因此，将这种孤独与我的情况结合起来，我不知道有多少人攻击你。

I have a shockingly low amount of attack rate, I feel like.

我感觉我的攻击率低得惊人。

Yeah, people generally…

是的，人们一般...

2:11:28 It’s sometimes fun sort of teasing, that kind of thing, but it’s mostly just really…

有时候，取笑之类的事情很有趣，但大多数情况下都是真的……

You give so much love to the world and inspire so many people, even when you’re making fun of stuff, yeah.

你给了这个世界如此多的爱，激励了很多人，即使你在取笑一些东西，是的。

But with me taking the loneliness of it combined with just really intense attacks, it’s tough.

但对于我来说，孤独与强烈的攻击相结合，这很艰难。

It can be rough.

它可能很粗糙。

Psychologically, really a tough journey.

从心理上来说，确实是一段艰难的旅程。

You miss working with a team, just from even a software engineering side, where you can share code or talk over code?

您怀念与团队合作，即使是在软件工程方面，您也可以在团队中共享代码或讨论代码？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, the collab…

是啊，合作……

2:12:00 Or talk over code or the collaborative aspect of it.

或者讨论代码或其协作方面。

Yeah, multiple things there.

是的，那里有很多东西。

2:12:05 One, hey, we love you Lex, so don’t let the things get you down.

一，嘿，我们爱你莱克斯，所以不要让事情让你沮丧。

Thank you.

谢谢。

2:12:12 Thank you.

谢谢。

I love you too.

我也爱你。

Thank you.

谢谢。

2:12:15 Hey, little bonding moment here going on.

嘿，这里正在发生一些亲密的时刻。

But one thing I really miss-

但我真的很怀念一件事——

Not in a sexual way, just to be clear.

不是以性的方式，只是为了澄清。

The tension is a little tense.

气氛有点紧张。

I’m getting uncomfortable.

我越来越不舒服了。

2:12:23 Yeah.

是的。

Anyway, team.

无论如何，组队。

It’s just the one thing I really miss is just, even when I hated how people did it, just seeing how other people solved things, it’s really amazing just the raw creative power so many people have, and just being like, oh, wow, I would’ve never done it this way.

我真正怀念的一件事是，即使我讨厌人们如何做到这一点，只要看到其他人如何解决问题，这么多人拥有的原始创造力真是令人惊叹，就像，哦，哇，我永远不会这样做。

2:12:27 Crazy, right?

疯了，对吧？

Wow, this is awesome.

哇，这太棒了。

And then you kind of internally process this and you’re like, oh, I now have a new little tool in my tool belt.

然后你在内部处理这个问题，你会想，哦，我的工具带里现在有了一个新的小工具。

Because at some point it’s really hard to find a mentor when you’re first, young and you’re just starting out programming.

因为在某些时候，当你第一次、年轻、刚刚开始编程时，真的很难找到导师。

I mean, anyone with a couple years of experience will be not just a little bit better than you, but infinitely better than you.

我的意思是，任何拥有几年经验的人都不会比你好一点点，而是比你好得多。

It feels like crazy how much better people are.

人们变得更好了，这感觉简直太疯狂了。

And so you have to get mentors and you learn from people.

所以你必须得到导师并向人们学习。

And then as you get better, that amount of availability gets really small.

然后，当你变得更好时，可用性就会变得非常小。

And so it’s something that I really do miss is that forced hard problem solving together.

所以我真正怀念的是强制一起解决难题。

I think there’s also a skill to mining the wisdom from other people.

我认为挖掘他人智慧也是一种技巧。

2:13:19 I generally try to approach even junior people, young folks.

我通常会尝试去接近资历较浅的人、年轻人。

It’s just mentally, at least for me, it works as a hack to assume they’re the smartest person in the world, way smarter than me.

这只是在心理上，至少对我来说，这是一种黑客行为，假设他们是世界上最聪明的人，比我聪明得多。

And so I take every single word they say as potential wisdom, and that helps me sort of mine for potential wisdom there.

所以我把他们说的每一句话都视为潜在的智慧，这对我来说是潜在的智慧的帮助。

Because it’s so easy once you get older to judge, to be like, yeah, okay, okay.

因为一旦你长大了，你就很容易做出判断，说，是啊，好吧，好吧。

I’ve been through that.

我经历过。

I remember feeling like that.

我记得有那样的感觉。

I remember thinking that.

我记得我是这么想的。

That’s incorrect, whatever.

无论如何，这是不正确的。

But just kind of assume that I don’t know what the fuck I’m doing, and the other person is this sage.

但假设我不知道自己在做什么，而另一个人就是这个圣人。

And in that kind of interaction, I think you could actually learn a lot.

在这种互动中，我认为你实际上可以学到很多东西。

And my favorite interactions is when we both think that way.

我最喜欢的互动是我们都这么想的时候。

So from there, I think that’s a catalyst for a great collaboration and interaction.

因此，从那时起，我认为这是良好合作和互动的催化剂。

It just also makes everything much nicer.

它也让一切变得更加美好。

2:14:19 It really stinks to work with someone that’s combative and negative.

和好斗、消极的人一起工作真的很糟糕。

I don’t mind combativeness if it’s like I’m trying to figure out what’s best to do right now, versus combativeness just because you’re a negative person and things have to be this one particular way, because if they’re not this one particular way, it’s the end of the world.

如果我想弄清楚现在最好做什么，我不介意好斗，而不是因为你是一个消极的人而好斗，事情必须以这种特定的方式进行，因为如果不是这种特定的方式，那就是世界末日。

And that’s actually really hard for me to work with.

这对我来说真的很难工作。

What’s the origin story of ThePrimeagen name?

ThePrimeagen 这个名字的起源故事是什么？

The origin story of ThePrimeagen name was, are you familiar with a video game called Turok?

ThePrimeagen 这个名字的由来是，你熟悉一款叫做 Turok 的电子游戏吗？

2:14:47 Nintendo 64.

任天堂 64。

Turok had Turok I and then Turok II.

图洛克有图洛克一号，然后是图洛克二号。

Turok II was a brutally hard game.

《Turok II》是一款极其艰苦的游戏。

This is back when first-person shooters, they would only give you a certain amount of health, and you had to go discover health and get that health.

这又回到了第一人称射击游戏的时代，它们只会给你一定的生命值，你必须去发现生命值并获得生命值。

And you had to beat the whole game without effectively dying.

而且你必须在不死亡的情况下通关整个游戏。

That’s the first version right there.

这是第一个版本。

That’s like Turok I and Turok II.

就像图洛克一号和图洛克二号一样。

Turok is a renowned first-person shooter video game series featuring dinosaurs, action, and sci-fi elements.

Turok 是著名的第一人称射击视频游戏系列，以恐龙、动作和科幻元素为特色。

2:15:16 The franchise has evolved significantly since its inception in 1997.

自 1997 年成立以来，该系列已经取得了显着的发展。

There you go.

就这样吧。

2:15:27 So in 1998, there, you can see it right there.

所以在 1998 年，你就可以看到它。

Turok II, Seed of Evil followed in 1998 featuring larger levels, more challenging puzzles, and deadlier enemies.

1998 年推出的《Turok II, Seed of Evil》具有更大的关卡、更具挑战性的谜题和更致命的敌人。

The notable difficulty, it was very, very, very difficult.

值得注意的困难是非常非常非常困难。

2:15:37 So I spent, when I got it, it came in a black cartridge, not like your standard gray Nintendo 64, the black cartridge.

所以当我拿到它时，它是黑色卡带的，而不是像标准的灰色任天堂 64 那样，黑色卡带。

Badass game.

坏蛋游戏。

And I got it and I put it in and I played, and I played every day for 10 hours a day, for a month straight.

我拿到了它，把它放进去玩，我每天都玩 10 个小时，连续一个月。

And I beat it.

我打败了它。

And it was such an incredible, great experience.

这是一次令人难以置信的、很棒的经历。

And the last leader of Turok II is called the Primeagen.

Turok II 的最后一位领导者被称为 Primeagen。

And so when I was a kid, when you’re in fifth grade, that’s super cool, named after the bad guy.

所以当我还是个孩子的时候，当你上五年级的时候，那太酷了，以坏人的名字命名。

And so for a long time on any internet thing, like Grail Online that I mentioned earlier, the name was ThePrimeagen.

因此，很长一段时间以来，在任何互联网事物上，比如我之前提到的 Grail Online，这个名字都是 ThePrimeagen。

It was great.

太棒了。

And then I became an adult eventually, and it’s just like, okay, I’m an adult.

然后我最终成为了一个成年人，就像，好吧，我是一个成年人了。

My name’s Michael Paulson underscore.

我的名字是迈克尔保尔森下划线。

And that’s what I was on the internet for a long time was that.

这就是我在互联网上呆了很长时间的事情。

And I remember it was like 2017, 2018, somewhere in there.

我记得那是 2017 年、2018 年的某个地方。

2:16:36 I remember just how bad the tech world had kind of become.

我记得科技世界变得多么糟糕。

It was just like this super pretentious place, tons of dick measuring, just everything that just was the worst.

就像这个超级自命不凡的地方，大量的鸡巴测量，一切都是最糟糕的。

Ken Wheeler got canceled over playing the Circle game.

肯·惠勒因玩“圆圈”游戏而被取消。

It was just like, it is so hard to describe to people that weren’t there, but it was just the worst place to be.

就像，很难向不在场的人描述，但那是最糟糕的地方。

Tech was extremely unfun.

科技非常无趣。

It was extremely awful.

这是非常可怕的。

Everything was just so, it wasn’t academic because it was research.

一切都是如此，这不是学术，因为它是研究。

It was like we’re building the most sophisticated things, and this is for the smart people and everyone else is the dumb people.

就好像我们正在建造最复杂的东西，这是为聪明人准备的，而其他人都是愚蠢的人。

Don’t worry.

不用担心。

We’ll design for you, dummy.

我们将为你设计，傻瓜。

We’ll show you how to make the perfect architecture.

我们将向您展示如何打造完美的架构。

And I remember changing my Twitter handle because I got so upset and just went back to my video game name.

我记得我改变了我的推特账号，因为我很沮丧，然后又回到了我的电子游戏名称。

I was like, I want things to be fun.

我当时想，我希望事情变得有趣。

2:17:24 I want this to stop.

我想让这一切停止。

And so when I started streaming tech, my goal became to destroy whatever that tech mentality was, because it includes nobody.

因此，当我开始流媒体技术时，我的目标就是摧毁任何技术心态，因为它不包括任何人。

Everyone thinks that they’re the smart people and they design for the dummies.

每个人都认为自己是聪明人，但他们的设计却是为了傻瓜。

And it’s just like, no, I want tech to be this place where people feel like they can be creative, and excited, and actually build something.

就像，不，我希望科技成为这样一个地方，让人们觉得他们可以发挥创造力，感到兴奋，并真正构建一些东西。

And if you’re new, it’s okay to be dumb and ask dumb questions.

如果你是新手，犯傻并问愚蠢的问题是可以的。

Learn from your dumbness.

从你的愚蠢中学习。

No one’s expecting you to be smart.

没有人指望你聪明。

Pick whatever you want.

选择你想要的任何东西。

Actually do something and have fun and build your crazy ideas.

实际做一些事情，享受乐趣，并建立你疯狂的想法。

Oh, you’re going to reinvent the wheel, reinvent the wheel, understand what you’re doing, learn it really good, and interact and stuff.

哦，你要重新发明轮子，重新发明轮子，了解你在做什么，学得很好，并进行互动等等。

And it was just so different than what was out there.

它与外面的东西完全不同。

And the name…

还有名字……

Arnold Schwarzenegger talks about this thing where, when he first started acting, his name was the thing that people hated.

阿诺·施瓦辛格谈到这件事时，当他刚开始演戏时，他的名字是人们讨厌的东西。

2:18:14 As he once said, you have a strange voice, you have a strange body, and your name, your name’s unpronounceable.

正如他曾经说过的，你有一个奇怪的声音，你有一个奇怪的身体，你的名字，你的名字难以发音。

No one’s going to Schneitzinfinitzel, no one’s going to remember that.

没有人会去Schneitzinfinitzel，没有人会记得那件事。

And he said, but now the name is the strong part.

他说，但现在名字才是最重要的部分。

And for me, I’ve always felt akin to that, though my name’s not nearly as cool, nor am I as popular as Arnold, nor am I as tough or good-looking or successful.

对我来说，我一直有类似的感觉，尽管我的名字不像阿诺德那么酷，也不像阿诺德那么受欢迎，也不像阿诺德那么坚强、好看或成功。

But nonetheless, it’s just the name represented this counterculture movement within myself, in which I just hated what was there and I wanted to defeat it.

但尽管如此，这个名字代表了我内心的反文化运动，我只是讨厌那里的东西，我想打败它。

And so this has been the thing.

事情就是这样。

And now people remember me so well because of how weird my name is.

现在人们对我的记忆如此深刻，因为我的名字很奇怪。

And so it’s just like for whatever reason, it became its own thing.

所以无论出于什么原因，它都变成了自己的东西。

And so that’s the…

这就是……

Now I would never change it, and back then I would never change it because it was my rage against the machine moment, if you will.

现在我永远不会改变它，那时我也永远不会改变它，因为这是我对机器的愤怒，如果你愿意的话。

Yeah, I love that as a symbol of rage against the machine and the rage being fun.

是的，我喜欢它作为对机器的愤怒的象征，而且愤怒是有趣的。

Yeah.

是的。

2:19:07 I just want people to be creative and have fun again.

我只是希望人们能够发挥创造力并再次享受乐趣。

It’s okay.

没关系。

What about the mustache?

小胡子呢？

2:19:11 It’s an epic mustache.

这是史诗般的胡子。

It’s an epic stash.

这是一个史诗般的藏品。

It has a life of its own.

它有自己的生命。

Is there an origin story or did you guys discover each other at some point?

有没有起源故事或者你们在某个时候发现了彼此？

Or did it emerge from the darkness of the struggle that is your life, or where does it come from?

或者它是从你生命中挣扎的黑暗中出现的，或者它来自哪里？

Well, the original mustache is that it was no-shave November back before it became Movember.

好吧，原来的小胡子是十一月没有刮胡子，然后才变成Movember。

2:19:29 It was no-shave November back in the day.

那时是十一月，没有刮胡子。

And after no-shave November, you had all this hair.

十一月不刮胡子之后，你的头发就长成了这样。

And so what’s the natural thing you got to do?

那么你自然要做的事情是什么？

You got to sport a mustache for a day.

你必须留一天小胡子。

So whenever I’d forget to not shave for a long time, and then I’d let it start growing out really big, I just go, oh, this is kind of funny.

所以每当我忘记很长时间不刮胡子，然后我让它开始长得很大时，我就会说，哦，这有点有趣。

I’ll have a mustache.

我会留胡子。

So one day when I was streaming, it’s just one of those times I just didn’t shave, and then I started just letting it go, and then I got kind of a beard, and then I just had a mustache.

所以有一天，当我直播时，这只是我没有刮胡子的时候之一，然后我开始放手，然后我就留了胡子，然后我就留了小胡子。

When I did it, people were just like, yeah, it’s mustache time.

当我这样做的时候，人们就像是，是的，现在是胡子时间了。

And I was just like, heck yeah, it feels like a lifestyle decision.

我当时想，哎呀，这感觉像是一种生活方式的决定。

2:20:07 This is the fun times.

这是有趣的时光。

And so all of a sudden it was just exciting to have a mustache.

所以突然之间，留胡子真是令人兴奋。

And I shaved it off and I was like, oh, okay.

我把它剃掉了，我想，哦，好吧。

But then part of me is like there’s this weird energy that comes from just having a mustache.

但我的一部分感觉就像有一种奇怪的能量来自于留胡子。

So I was like, I’m going back.

所以我想，我要回去了。

Told my wife, forgive her.

告诉我的妻子，原谅她。

She was very not as thrilled about my decisions to have a mustache long-term, but I just decided to have it back and it was the right thing.

她对我长期留胡子的决定并不那么兴奋，但我决定把它留回来，这是正确的事情。

It’s always been the energy that I had was the mustache.

小胡子一直是我的能量。

It was always been there.

它一直都在那里。

It just never was visible until later on it feels like.

它只是一直不可见，直到后来才感觉到。

Yeah, we’re chatting offline how one of the components of a successful relationship is sacrifice and your wife was willing to take the sacrifice of allowing you to have a mustache.

是的，我们正在线下聊天，成功关系的组成部分之一就是牺牲，而你的妻子愿意为了让你留胡子而做出牺牲。

I clearly was not willing to sacrifice not having one.

我显然不愿意牺牲没有一个。

You do this incredible thing where you tried a bunch of different programming languages when you stream.

在直播时尝试了多种不同的编程语言，这是一件令人难以置信的事情。

2:20:53 You go all out on certain programming languages like Rust and then go and then try to pick a new one, but also are experimenting constantly.

你全力以赴地使用某些编程语言，比如 Rust，然后尝试选择一种新的语言，但同时也在不断地进行实验。

So maybe one question I could ask is about learning.

所以也许我可以问的一个问题是关于学习的。

What’s your approach to learning a new programming language, and maybe what’s your advice on learning a new programming language when you begin that journey?

您学习一门新的编程语言的方法是什么？当您开始学习一门新的编程语言时，您的建议是什么？