纳伦德拉·莫迪：印度总理——权力、民主、战争与和平

My strength lies not in my name, but in the backing of 1.4 billion Indians and thousands of years of timeless culture and heritage.

我的力量不在于我的名字，而在于14亿印度人民和数千年永恒文化和遗产的支持。

00:00 So wherever I go, I carry with me the essence of thousands of years of Vedic tradition, the timeless teachings of Swami Vivekananda and the blessings, dreams, and aspirations of 1.4 billion Indians.

因此，无论我走到哪里，我都带着数千年吠陀传统的精髓、斯瓦米·维韦卡南达永恒的教义以及 14 亿印度人的祝福、梦想和愿望。

When I shake hands with the world leader, it’s not Modi, but 1.4 billion Indians doing so.

当我与世界领导人握手时，握手的不是莫迪，而是14亿印度人。

So this isn’t my strength at all.

所以这根本不是我的强项。

It is rather the strength of India.

这是印度的实力。

Whenever we speak of peace, the world listens to us, because India is the land of Gautama Buddha and Mahatma Gandhi, and Indians aren’t hardwired to espouse strife and conflict.

每当我们谈论和平时，世界都会倾听我们的声音，因为印度是乔达摩佛陀和圣雄甘地的土地，印度人并不是生来就支持冲突和冲突。

We espouse harmony instead.

相反，我们崇尚和谐。

01:06 We seek neither to wage war against nature, nor to foster strife among nations.

我们既不寻求对自然发动战争，也不寻求煽动国家之间的冲突。

We stand for peace, and wherever we can act as peacemakers, we have gladly embraced that responsibility.

我们主张和平，只要我们能够充当和平缔造者，我们就乐意承担这一责任。

My early life was spent in extreme poverty, but we never really felt the burden of poverty.

我的早年生活是在极度贫困中度过的，但我们从未真正感受到贫困的负担。

You see, someone who is used to wearing fine shoes will feel their absence when they don’t have them, but for us, we had never worn shoes in our lives.

你看，穿惯了好鞋的人，没了鞋就会觉得缺席，但对我们来说，一辈子都没穿过鞋。

So how would we even know that wearing shoes was a big deal?

那么我们怎么知道穿鞋是一件大事呢？

We weren’t in a position to compare.

我们无法进行比较。

That’s just how we lived.

我们就是这样生活的。

01:56 When I became Prime Minister, I especially invited Pakistan to my swearing-in ceremony so we could turn over a new leaf, yet every noble attempt at fostering peace was met with hostility and betrayal.

当我成为总理时，我特别邀请巴基斯坦参加我的宣誓就职仪式，以便我们能够翻开新的一页，但每一次促进和平的崇高尝试都遭到了敌意和背叛。

We sincerely hope that wisdom prevails upon them and they choose the path of peace.

我们真诚地希望他们能够被智慧所左右，选择和平之路。

I believe even the people of Pakistan long for peace.

我相信巴基斯坦人民也渴望和平。

Look, regarding what you said about criticism and how I deal with it.

看看，关于你所说的批评以及我如何处理它。

If I had to summarize in one sentence, I welcome it.

如果我必须用一句话来概括的话，我欢迎它。

I have a strong belief that criticism is the soul of democracy.

我坚信批评是民主的灵魂。

I want to tell all the young people the following.

我想告诉所有的年轻人以下几点。

No matter how dark the night may seem, it is still just night, and morning is bound to come.

无论夜晚看起来多么黑暗，它仍然只是夜晚，黎明一定会到来。

The following is a conversation with Narendra Modi, the prime Minister of India.

以下是与印度总理纳伦德拉·莫迪的对话。

03:07 It was one of the most moving conversations and experiences of my life.

这是我一生中最感人的谈话和经历之一。

Allow me here to say a few words about it.

请允许我在这里简单说几句。

Please skip ahead straight to our conversation, if you like.

如果您愿意，请直接跳到我们的对话。

Narendra Modi’s life story is incredible.

纳伦德拉·莫迪的人生故事令人难以置信。

He rose from poverty to lead a nation of 1.4 billion people, the biggest democracy in the world, where he won epic-scale elections for Prime Minister three times.

他摆脱贫困，领导了一个拥有 14 亿人口的国家，这是世界上最大的民主国家，并三次赢得了史诗般规模的总理选举。

As a leader, he fought for ideas that unite his nation of India, a nation that is composed of a large number of highly varied and disparate cultures and peoples, who have a long history marked by religious, social, and political frictions.

作为一名领导人，他为团结印度民族的理念而奋斗，印度是一个由大量高度多样化和不同文化和民族组成的国家，其悠久的历史充满了宗教、社会和政治摩擦。

He is known for taking decisive, at times controversial actions for which he is loved by hundreds of millions of people, and is also criticized by many.

他以采取果断、有时引起争议的行动而闻名，因此受到数亿人的喜爱，但也受到许多人的批评。

We discuss all of this at length in this conversation.

我们在这次谈话中详细讨论了所有这些。

On the world stage, he is respected as a peacemaker and friend by most major world leaders, even those whose nations are at war with each other, from the United States to China, to Ukraine and Russia, to Israel, Palestine and the Middle East, and everywhere else.

在世界舞台上，他被大多数世界主要领导人尊为和平缔造者和朋友，甚至包括那些处于战争状态的国家，从美国到中国，到乌克兰和俄罗斯，到以色列、巴勒斯坦和中东，以及其他任何地方。

Now, at this moment in history, it is clear, at least to me, that the flourishing of human civilization hangs in the balance, with several wars on the brink of escalation to regional and even global conflict, rising tensions between nuclear powers, technological developments from AI to nuclear fusion that aim to completely transform society and geopolitics as we know it, and of course, generally increasing political and cultural turmoil.

现在，在历史的这个时刻，至少对我来说，很明显，人类文明的繁荣悬而未决，几场战争处于升级为地区甚至全球冲突的边缘，核大国之间的紧张局势不断升级，从人工智能到核聚变的技术发展旨在彻底改变我们所知道的社会和地缘政治，当然，政治和文化动荡普遍加剧。

05:05 So now more than ever, we need great leaders, great peacemakers who build bridges, not destroy them, who may preserve the identity of their nations, but still celebrate the common humanity of all of us, all people on earth.

因此，现在我们比以往任何时候都更需要伟大的领导人、伟大的和平缔造者，他们架起桥梁，而不是摧毁桥梁，他们可以维护自己国家的特性，但仍然颂扬我们所有人、地球上所有人的共同人性。

For this and many other reasons, this conversation with Prime Minister Modi was one of the most remarkable I’ve ever had.

出于这个原因和许多其他原因，与莫迪总理的这次谈话是我经历过的最引人注目的谈话之一。

You may hear such words and think that I’m just enamored by power or access.

你可能听到这样的话，认为我只是迷恋权力或机会。

No, never was, never will be.

不，从来没有，也永远不会。

I do not idolize anyone, especially those in power.

我不崇拜任何人，尤其是当权者。

I’m generally skeptical of power, money, and fame because of their natural corrupting influence on the mind, the heart, the soul of a person.

我通常对权力、金钱和名誉持怀疑态度，因为它们对一个人的思想、心灵和灵魂具有自然的腐蚀影响。

05:57 The whole point of all the conversations I’ve had in my life, on mic and off mic, is that I try to see and explore the full complexity of every human being, the good and the bad.

我一生中进行的所有对话（无论是在麦克风内还是在麦克风外）的全部要点是，我试图看到并探索每个人的全部复杂性，无论是好人还是坏人。

I believe we’re all the same in a deep fundamental sense, all capable of good, all capable of evil, all carry stories of pain and stories of hope.

我相信，从根本上来说，我们都是一样的，都有行善的能力，都有作恶的能力，都有痛苦的故事和希望的故事。

Whether you’re a world leader or a truck driver, a coal miner, or a farmer in the American Midwest.

无论您是世界领导人、卡车司机、煤矿工人，还是美国中西部的农民。

And by the way, I will be talking to a lot of the latter kind of folk this year off mic, and maybe even on mic, as I travel the US and the world.

顺便说一句，今年我将在美国和世界各地旅行时，通过麦克风与很多后一种人交谈，甚至可能通过麦克风。

My brief statements here about Narendra Modi are about both him as a leader, and especially him as a human being.

我在这里对纳伦德拉·莫迪的简短陈述是关于他作为一个领导人，特别是他作为一个人。

In the extensive time I spent with him, I spoke with him off mic and on mic.

在我与他共度的大量时间里，我经常通过麦克风与他交谈。

06:56 It was a deeply personal human interaction characterized by warmth, kindness, humor, inner and outer peace, and absolute focus on the conversation between us in the present moment as if nothing else existed.

这是一种非常个人化的人际互动，其特点是温暖、善良、幽默、内在和外在的平静，以及绝对专注于我们之间当下的对话，就好像什么都不存在一样。

I have heard from many people that he treats everyone he meets in this empathic way, no matter where they come from or what their position is in this world.

我从很多人那里听说，他以这种同理心的方式对待他遇到的每一个人，无论他们来自哪里，或者他们在这个世界上的地位如何。

So for those and many other reasons, this really was an incredible experience.

因此，出于这些以及许多其他原因，这确实是一次令人难以置信的经历。

I will never forget.

我永远不会忘记。

Oh, and by the way, we make captions and voiceover audio tracks available in English, Hindi and other languages.

哦，顺便说一句，我们提供英语、印地语和其他语言的字幕和画外音音轨。

You can also listen to the original mixed language version where I speak English and Prime Minister Modi speaks Hindi.

您还可以收听原始混合语言版本，其中我说英语，莫迪总理说印地语。

Separately, you can choose to turn on subtitles in your preferred language.

另外，您可以选择以您喜欢的语言打开字幕。

07:52 On YouTube, you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon and clicking audio track, and then selecting the language you prefer.

在 YouTube 上，您可以通过单击设置齿轮图标并单击音轨，然后选择您喜欢的语言来切换语言音轨。

For fully English overdub, select English.

对于全英语配音，请选择英语。

For fully Hindi overdub select Hindi, and to listen to the original mixed language version where I speak English and Prime Minister Modi speaks Hindi, please select Hindi Latin audio track, so you can listen either to a version that is all one language or to the original mixed language version with subtitles in your preferred language.

对于完整的印地语配音，请选择印地语，要收听我说英语和莫迪总理说印地语的原始混合语言版本，请选择印地语拉丁语音轨，这样您就可以收听全是一种语言的版本，也可以收听带有您喜欢的语言字幕的原始混合语言版本。

The default is English overdub.

默认为英语配音。

Our thanks to ElevenLabs and a great team of translators, we do our best to bring the Prime Minister’s voice to life with AI voice cloning in English.

感谢 ElevenLabs 和优秀的翻译团队，我们尽最大努力通过人工智能英语语音克隆将总理的声音带入生活。

08:41 I promise that we will continue to work very hard to break down the barriers that language creates, and try to make these conversations as accessible as possible to everyone in the world.

我保证，我们将继续努力打破语言造成的障碍，并努力让世界上的每个人都能尽可能地进行这些对话。

Anyway, let me pause one more time to say a big thank you.

不管怎样，让我再暂停一下，向你们表示深深的感谢。

What a wild ride this life has been.

这一生是多么疯狂啊。

It’s an honor for me to be on it with all of you.

我很荣幸能和大家一起参与其中。

I love you all.

我爱你们。

This is the Lex Fridman podcast, and now, dear friends, here’s the Prime Minister of India, Narendra Modi.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼 (Lex Fridman) 播客，现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是印度总理纳伦德拉·莫迪 (Narendra Modi)。

09:19 So, I should also say I’m fasting right now.

所以，我也应该说我现在正在禁食。

It’s been almost two days, 45 hours, so just water, no food in honor of this conversation, just to get in the right mindset, get into the spiritual level.

已经过去了将近两天、45 个小时，所以为了纪念这次谈话，只喝了水，没有吃任何食物，只是为了进入正确的心态，进入精神层面。

I’ve read that you often fast for many days.

我听说你经常禁食很多天。

Can you explain why you fast, and where does your mind go when you fast?

您能解释一下为什么要禁食吗？禁食时您的思绪会去哪里？

First of all, I’m truly pleasantly surprised and honored that you’re fasting, all the more because it feels like you’re fasting as a tribute of respect for me.

首先，我真的对你的禁食感到惊喜和荣幸，更重要的是，因为感觉你禁食是为了表达对我的尊重。

09:42 So, I express my deepest gratitude to you for doing this.

因此，我对你们这样做表示最深切的感谢。

In India, our religious traditions are actually a way of life.

在印度，我们的宗教传统实际上是一种生活方式。

Our Supreme Court once gave a brilliant interpretation of Hinduism.

我们的最高法院曾经对印度教做出过精彩的解释。

They have stated that Hinduism is not about rituals or methods of worship, but rather it’s a way of living, a philosophy that guides life itself.

他们表示，印度教不是关于仪式或崇拜方法，而是一种生活方式，一种指导生活本身的哲学。

And in our scriptures, there is deep discussion on elevating the body, mind, intellect, soul, and humanity.

在我们的经文中，对提升身体、思想、智力、灵魂和人性进行了深入的讨论。

They outline various paths, traditions, and systems to achieve this, and fasting is one of them, but fasting alone isn’t everything.

他们概述了实现这一目标的各种路径、传统和系统，禁食就是其中之一，但禁食本身并不是一切。

In India, whether you see it culturally or philosophically, sometimes I see that fasting is a way to cultivate discipline.

在印度，无论你从文化还是哲学角度来看，有时我认为禁食是培养纪律的一种方式。

11:28 If I put it in simple terms, or explain it to the viewers who are unfamiliar with India, it is a powerful tool to bring both the inner and outer self into balance.

如果我简单地说，或者向不熟悉印度的观众解释一下，它是一个使内在和外在自我平衡的强大工具。

It shapes life in profound ways when you fast.

当你禁食时，它会以深刻的方式塑造你的生活。

You may have noticed, as you said, you’ve been fasting on water for two days.

正如您所说，您可能已经注意到，您已经禁水两天了。

Every single one of your senses, especially smell, touch and taste, becomes highly sensitive.

你的每一种感官，尤其是嗅觉、触觉和味觉，都会变得高度敏感。

You may even notice the subtle aroma of water itself, something you probably never noticed before when drinking it.

您甚至可能会注意到水本身的微妙香气，这是您以前在喝水时可能从未注意到的。

If someone walks past you carrying tea, you will catch its aroma just like you would with coffee.

如果有人端着茶从你身边走过，你会闻到它的香气，就像喝咖啡一样。

A small flower you’ve seen before, you will see it again today, but now you can perceive its details more vividly.

一朵你以前见过的小花，今天你会再次看到它，但现在你可以更生动地感知它的细节。

Your senses become extra sharp, highly aware, and fully tuned in, and their capability to observe and to respond multiplies, and grows sharper.

你的感官变得格外敏锐、高度敏锐、完全协调，观察和反应的能力成倍增加，变得更加敏锐。

I have personally often experienced this.

我个人经常经历过这种情况。

Another thing I’ve experienced is that fasting can greatly accelerate the thinking process, and can give a fresh perspective.

我经历的另一件事是，禁食可以极大地加速思维过程，并且可以提供新的视角。

You start thinking outside the box.

你开始跳出框框思考。

I don’t know if everyone experiences this, but I certainly do.

我不知道是否每个人都经历过这种情况，但我确实经历过。

Most people assume that fasting simply means giving up food or not eating, but that’s just the physical aspect of fasting.

大多数人认为禁食只是意味着放弃食物或不吃东西，但这只是禁食的身体方面。

If someone is forced to go without food due to hardship with an empty stomach, can we call that fasting?

如果一个人因困苦而被迫空腹不吃东西，这能叫断食吗？

Fasting is actually a scientific process.

禁食实际上是一个科学的过程。

Whenever I fast for an extended period, I prepare my body in advance.

每当我长时间禁食时，我都会提前做好身体准备。

For five to seven days before the fast, I follow various Ayurvedic practices and yoga practices, along with other traditional cleansing methods to internally reset my system.

禁食前的五到七天，我遵循各种阿育吠陀练习和瑜伽练习，以及其他传统的清洁方法，以内部重置我的系统。

14:07 Before actually beginning the fast.

在真正开始禁食之前。

I make sure to drink a lot of water, as much as possible.

我确保尽可能多地喝水。

So, you could say that this detoxification process helps prepare my body in the best possible way.

所以，你可以说这个排毒过程帮助我的身体以最好的方式做好准备。

And once I begin fasting, for me, it’s an act of devotion.

一旦我开始禁食，对我来说，这就是一种奉献的行为。

For me, fasting is a form of self-discipline.

对我来说，禁食是一种自律。

For me personally, even while I go about doing my daily activities during a fast, my mind remains deeply introspective and focused inward, and that experience is profoundly transformative for me.

就我个人而言，即使我在禁食期间进行日常活动，我的思想仍然深深地内省和专注于内心，这种经历对我来说是深刻的变革。

My practice of fasting didn’t come from reading books, listening to sermons, or following a tradition just because my family happened to have observed it.

我的禁食实践并不是来自读书、听布道，或者仅仅因为我的家人碰巧遵守了某个传统。

It came from my own personal experience.

它来自我自己的个人经历。

15:10 During my school days, there was a movement inspired by Mahatma Gandhi’s vision, his vision of cow protection.

在我上学的时候，有一场运动受到圣雄甘地的愿景——他保护奶牛的愿景——的启发。

The government had not enacted any laws at the time.

当时政府尚未颁布任何法律。

At the time, people across the country observed a one-day fast by gathering in public places in silent protests.

当时，全国各地的人们在公共场所聚集进行无声抗议，以庆祝一日斋戒。

We were just kids, probably had just finished primary school.

我们还只是孩子，可能刚刚读完小学。

Something inside me said, “I should be part of this,” and that was the first time in my life I experienced fasting.

我内心深处的某个声音说：“我应该参与其中”，那是我一生中第一次经历禁食。

At such a young age, I felt neither hunger nor any desire for food.

在我这么小的年纪，我既没有感到饥饿，也没有对食物的渴望。

Instead, I felt a new awareness, a surge of energy within me.

相反，我感受到了一种新的意识，一种能量涌动在我体内。

16:04 So, I became convinced that fasting is a science far beyond just skipping meals.

因此，我开始相信，禁食是一门科学，远远超出了不吃饭的范畴。

It is something far greater than that.

它的意义远大于此。

Then gradually, I refined my body and mind through various experiments.

后来我通过各种实验逐渐完善了自己的身心。

Over time, it became a long and disciplined journey for me, and one thing is certain.

随着时间的推移，这对我来说变成了一次漫长而有纪律的旅程，有一点是肯定的。

Fasting never slows me down.

禁食永远不会让我放慢脚步。

I work just as much as usual.

我和平常一样工作。

Sometimes I even work more.

有时我什至工作更多。

And another fascinating thing I’ve noticed is that when I need to express my thoughts, I’m amazed at where they come from and how they flow.

我注意到的另一件令人着迷的事情是，当我需要表达自己的想法时，我会对它们的来源和流动方式感到惊讶。

It’s truly an incredible experience.

这确实是一次令人难以置信的体验。

So you still do meetings with world leaders, you still manage the affairs of India.

所以你仍然与世界领导人会面，你仍然管理印度的事务。

16:58 You still carry out your role as a leader on the world stage, all fasted, and sometimes nine days?

您仍然在世界舞台上履行领导者的职责，全程禁食，有时甚至九天？

Well, this practice has a long historical context.

其实这个做法是有很长的历史背景的。

17:14 I hope it may be interesting for those listening.

我希望听众会感兴趣。

There is an ancient tradition in India called Chaturmas.

印度有一个古老的传统，叫做Chaturmas。

During the monsoon season, we know that the digestion tends to slow down, and so in this season, many people in India follow the practice of eating only a single meal within 24 hours.

在季风季节，我们知道消化往往会减慢，因此在这个季节，许多印度人遵循24小时内只吃一顿饭的做法。

For me, this starts around mid-June and goes on until after Diwali around November.

对我来说，这从六月中旬左右开始，一直持续到十一月左右排灯节之后。

For about four to four and a half months, I follow this tradition of eating only once in 24 hours.

在大约四到四个半月的时间里，我一直遵循这种24小时只吃一次的传统。

Then comes the Navratri Festival in India, which usually falls in September or October.

然后是印度的九夜节，通常在九月或十月举行。

During this time, the whole country celebrates Durga Puja, a festival of strength, devotion, and spiritual discipline.

在此期间，全国庆祝杜尔加女神节（Durga Puja），这是一个力量、奉献和精神纪律的节日。

This lasts for nine days.

这种情况持续九天。

18:17 During this time, I completely abstain from food and only drink hot water.

这段时间我完全禁食，只喝热水。

Although drinking hot water has always been a part of my daily routine, my past lifestyle was such that I naturally developed this habit over time.

虽然喝热水一直是我日常生活的一部分，但我过去的生活方式使得我随着时间的推移自然而然地养成了这个习惯。

Then in March or April, another Navratri occurs called Chaitra Navratri.

然后在三月或四月，另一个九夜节发生，称为 Chaitra Navratri。

This year, it will likely begin around March 31st.

今年，可能会在 3 月 31 日左右开始。

During this nine-day fast, I eat only one specific fruit, once a day.

在这九天的禁食期间，我只吃一种特定的水果，每天一次。

So for those nine days, if let’s say I choose papaya, then for all nine days, I won’t touch anything else.

所以在那九天里，如果我选择木瓜，那么在这九天里，我不会碰其他任何东西。

Just papaya.

只是木瓜。

That too, I eat only once a day.

我也是这样，一天只吃一次。

That’s how I follow my nine-day fasting routine.

这就是我遵循九天禁食习惯的方式。

So there are numerous fasts I keep throughout the year, and this has become a deeply ingrained tradition in my life.

所以我一年四季都会进行多次斋戒，这已经成为我生活中根深蒂固的传统。

Perhaps I can say that I’ve been following these practices for 50 to 55 years.

也许我可以说我已经遵循这些做法 50 到 55 年了。

Has there been times when you met with a world leader and completely fasted, and maybe what do they think about that?

是否有过你会见世界领导人并完全禁食的时候，也许他们对此有何看法？

19:25 What do they think about your ability to do that kind of thing?

他们对你做这种事的能力有何看法？

And you’re right, I should mention that from even my two days, my ability to be present, my ability to sense everything, sharply focus on this experience is elevated.

你是对的，我应该提到，从我的两天开始，我的临场能力、我感知一切的能力、对这种体验的敏锐关注都得到了提升。

But yes, is there stories with a world leader that maybe jumped to mind when you were fasted?

但是，是的，当你禁食时，是否有一些关于世界领导人的故事可能会跳到你的脑海中？

Well, most of the time I don’t even let people know about it.

好吧，大多数时候我什至不让人们知道这件事。

19:55 It’s my personal matter, so I never publicized it, but people gradually started finding out.

这是我个人的事情，所以我从来没有公开过，但是人们逐渐开始知道。

It became known only after I became Chief Minister and Prime Minister.

这是我成为首席部长和总理后才为人所知的。

Otherwise, it was purely personal.

否则，这纯粹是个人的。

But now that it’s out in the open, I don’t mind sharing.

但现在它已经公开了，我不介意分享。

If someone asks, I tell them so it might be useful to them, because it’s not my personal property.

如果有人问，我会告诉他们，这样这可能对他们有用，因为这不是我的个人财产。

It’s my experience, and if that can help someone, why not share it?

这是我的经验，如果可以帮助别人，为什么不分享呢？

After all, my life has always been devoted to the well-being of others.

毕竟，我的一生一直致力于他人的福祉。

20:34 For example, after I became Prime Minister, I had a bilateral meeting at the White House with President Obama, and he had also arranged a formal dinner.

比如，我就任总理后，我在白宫与奥巴马总统进行了双边会晤，他还安排了正式晚宴。

Then as discussions between the two governments progressed, someone said, “Please join us for dinner.” To which another replied, “But the Prime Minister doesn’t eat.” This left them a bit concerned.

然后，随着两国政府之间的讨论取得进展，有人说：“请和我们一起吃晚饭吧。”另一位回答说：“但是首相不吃饭。”这让他们有些担心。

How do you host the leader of such a major nation at the White House without serving food?

这么一个大国的领导人在白宫怎么能不提供食物呢？

When we sat down, they brought me a glass of hot water.

当我们坐下时，他们给我端来了一杯热水。

I turned to President Obama and jokingly said, “Look, my dinner has arrived,” as I placed the glass in front of me.

我转向奥巴马总统，开玩笑地说：“看，我的晚餐到了。”我把杯子放在我面前。

Later when I visited again, he still remembered.

后来我再去拜访时，他还记得。

He smiled and said, “Last time you were fasting, this time we’re having lunch.

他微笑着说：“上次你在禁食，这次我们在吃午饭。

Since you’re not fasting, you’ll have to eat twice as much.”

因为你没有禁食，所以你必须吃两倍的东西。”

Let’s go to the beginning.

让我们从头开始。

21:38 You rose from humble beginnings to lead the world’s largest democracy.

您出身卑微，领导了世界上最大的民主国家。

So, I think there’s a lot of people for whom this is truly inspiring.

所以，我认为这对很多人来说确实是鼓舞人心的。

Your family was a very modest means, and you grew up in a one-room house with a mud floor, your whole family living there.

你的家庭条件非常简朴，你在一间泥地板的单间房子里长大，全家人都住在那里。

Tell me about your childhood.

告诉我你的童年。

How did those humble beginnings shape your outlook on life?

这些卑微的出身如何塑造了你的人生观？

My birthplace is in Gujarat, specifically in North Gujarat, in Mehsana district, in a small town called Vadnagar.

我的出生地在古吉拉特邦，特别是在北古吉拉特邦的梅赫萨纳区，一个叫瓦德纳加尔的小镇。

22:07 Historically, this town holds great significance, and so Vadnagar is where I was born and completed my early education.

从历史上看，这个小镇具有重要意义，因此瓦德纳加尔是我出生和完成早期教育的地方。

Looking at the world as I understand it today, I can reflect on my childhood and the unique environment I grew up in.

看看我今天所理解的世界，我可以反思我的童年和我成长的独特环境。

My village had certain fascinating aspects, some of which are quite rare, even globally.

我的村庄有一些令人着迷的方面，其中一些甚至在全球都是罕见的。

When I was in school, there was an elder in our village who would regularly tell students, “Listen, kids, wherever you go, if you find a carved stone, or you find a stone with inscriptions on it or anything with engravings, bring it and place it in this corner of the school.” Over time, my curiosity grew and I started to understand.

我上学的时候，村里有一位长辈经常对学生们说：“听着，孩子们，无论你走到哪里，如果你发现一块雕刻的石头，或者你发现一块上面有铭文的石头或任何有雕刻的东西，就把它带到学校的这个角落。”随着时间的推移，我的好奇心不断增长，我开始理解。

I realized that my village had a rich and ancient history.

我意识到我的村庄有着丰富而古老的历史。

Discussions at school often revealed more fascinating details about its past.

学校里的讨论经常揭示有关其过去的更多有趣的细节。

Later I learned that China even made a film about it.

后来我才知道中国还拍了一部关于它的电影。

I had read in a newspaper about a film that mentioned the Chinese philosopher Hiuen Tsang, who had spent a considerable amount of time in my village, having arrived there many centuries ago.

我在报纸上读到一部电影，其中提到了中国哲学家玄奘，他在我的村庄度过了相当长的时间，许多世纪前就到达了那里。

Back then, it was a major center for Buddhist learning.

当时，它是佛教学习的主要中心。

That’s how I first learned about it.

这就是我第一次了解到它的方式。

And perhaps around the 1400s, it was a prominent Buddhist educational hub.

也许在 1400 年代左右，它是一个著名的佛教教育中心。

24:22 There was a victory monument from the 12th century, a temple from the 17th century, and in the 16th century, two sisters, Tana and Riri, who were renowned musicians.

这里有一座12世纪的胜利纪念碑，一座17世纪的寺庙，还有16世纪的塔娜和瑞瑞两姐妹，她们是著名的音乐家。

As I uncovered these history traces, I grasped the depth of our heritage.

当我发现这些历史痕迹时，我领悟到了我们遗产的深度。

So when I became chief minister, I initiated large-scale excavation projects.

因此，当我成为首席部长后，我启动了大规模的挖掘项目。

The findings from these very projects confirmed that thousands of Buddhist monks had at one time studied there.

这些项目的调查结果证实，数千名佛教僧侣曾在那里学习过。

It was a place where Buddhist, Jain and Hindu traditions co-existed harmoniously, and for us, history wasn’t just confined to books.

这是一个佛教、耆那教和印度教传统和谐共存的地方，对我们来说，历史不仅仅局限于书本。

Every stone spoke.

每块石头都会说话。

Every wall had a story to tell, and so when we began the large-scale excavation work, we uncovered findings that hold immense historical significance.

每面墙都有一个故事，因此当我们开始大规模发掘工作时，我们发现了具有巨大历史意义的发现。

25:40 So far, they have discovered evidence dating back 2,800 years, proving that this city has remained unbroken and eternal for all those 2,800 years.

到目前为止，他们已经发现了2800年前的证据，证明这座城市在这2800年里一直保持完整和永恒。

They have discovered solid proof of how its development unfolded over these centuries.

他们发现了它在这几个世纪中如何发展的确凿证据。

Now, an international-level museum has been established there, open to visitors, especially for archeology students.

现在，那里建立了一座国际级的博物馆，向游客开放，特别是考古专业的学生。

It has become a major area of study.

它已成为一个主要研究领域。

So the place where I was born holds its own unique historical significance.

所以我出生的地方有其独特的历史意义。

I see it as my good fortune.

我认为这是我的幸运。

Some things in life unfold beyond our understanding.

生活中的一些事情超出了我们的理解范围。

Kashi became my realm of duty.

喀什成了我的职责领域。

Now, Kashi is also eternal.

现在，喀什也是永恒的。

Kashi, also known as Benares, or Varanasi, is an eternal city that has remained vibrant and alive for centuries.

喀什，也被称为贝拿勒斯或瓦拉纳西，是一座永恒的城市，几个世纪以来一直充满活力和生机。

26:45 Perhaps it was some divine design that led a boy born in Vadnagar to eventually make Kashi his realm of duty, living in the embrace of Mother Ganga.

也许是某种神圣的设计，导致一个出生在瓦德纳加尔的男孩最终将喀什作为他的职责领域，生活在恒河母亲的怀抱中。

When I think about my family, my father, my mother, my siblings, my uncles, aunts, grandparents, we all grew up together in a small house.

当我想到我的家人时，我的父亲、母亲、兄弟姐妹、叔叔、阿姨、祖父母，我们都在一个小房子里一起长大。

The place we lived was likely even smaller than where we are sitting now.

我们住的地方可能比我们现在坐的地方还要小。

There was no window, just a small door.

没有窗户，只有一扇小门。

That’s where I was born.

那就是我出生的地方。

That’s where I grew up.

那是我长大的地方。

Now, when people talk about poverty, it’s natural to discuss it in the context of public life, and by those standards, my early life was spent in extreme poverty, but we never really felt the burden of poverty.

现在，当人们谈论贫困时，很自然地会在公共生活的背景下讨论它，按照这些标准，我的早年生活是在极端贫困中度过的，但我们从未真正感受到贫困的负担。

27:50 You see, someone who is used to wearing fine shoes will feel their absence when they don’t have them.

你看，习惯穿好鞋的人，一旦没有了鞋，就会感到失落。

But for us, we had never worn shoes in our lives.

但对于我们来说，我们一生中从未穿过鞋子。

So how would we even know that wearing shoes was a big deal?

那么我们怎么知道穿鞋是一件大事呢？

We weren’t in a position to compare.

我们无法进行比较。

That’s just how we lived.

我们就是这样生活的。

Our mother worked incredibly hard.

我们的母亲工作非常努力。

My father, too.

我的父亲也是。

He was extremely hardworking, and he was also extremely disciplined.

他非常勤奋，也非常遵守纪律。

Every morning around 4:00 or 4:30 AM he would leave the house, walk long distances, visit several temples, and then reach his shop.

每天早上 4:00 或 4:30 左右，他都会离开家，步行很长的距离，参观几座寺庙，然后到达他的商店。

28:39 He wore traditional leather shoes, handmade in the village.

他穿着村里手工制作的传统皮鞋。

The shoes were very tough and sturdy, making a distinct tock, tock, tock sound when he walked.

鞋子非常坚韧，走路时发出明显的“哒哒哒”的声音。

People in the village used to say that they could tell the time just by hearing his footsteps.

村里的人常说，只要听他的脚步声就能知道时间。

” Oh, yes,” they would say, “Mr. Damodar is on his way.” Such was his discipline.

“哦，是的，”他们会说，“达莫达尔先生正在路上。”这就是他的纪律。

He worked tirelessly, late into the night.

他不知疲倦地工作，一直工作到深夜。

Our mother too, ensured that we never felt the struggles of our circumstances, but despite everything, these challenging circumstances of living in scarcity never left a mark on our minds.

我们的母亲也确保我们永远不会感受到环境的挣扎，但尽管如此，这些生活在匮乏中的充满挑战的环境从未在我们的脑海中留下痕迹。

I remember in school, the idea of wearing shoes never even crossed my mind.

我记得在学校时，我从来没有想过穿鞋子。

29:40 One day, while I was on my way to school, I ran into my uncle on the way he saw me and was surprised, “Hey, you go to school like this, without shoes?” So at that time, he bought me a pair of canvas shoes and made me wear them.

有一天，我在上学的路上，遇见了叔叔，他看到我，很惊讶：“哎，你就这么不穿鞋上学吗？”所以当时他就给我买了一双帆布鞋让我穿。

Back then, they must have cost around 10 or 12 rupees.

那时，它们的价格大约是 10 或 12 卢比。

But here’s the thing.

但事情是这样的。

They were white canvas shoes, and they would quickly get stained.

这是白色的帆布鞋，很快就会被弄脏。

So what did I do?

那么我做了什么？

In the evening, after school was over, I would stay back for a while.

晚上放学后，我会在家里呆一会儿。

I would go from classroom to classroom, collecting leftover pieces of chalk that the teachers had discarded.

我会从一个教室走到另一个教室，收集老师丢弃的剩余粉笔。

I would take the pieces of chalk home, soak them in water, mix them into a paste and polish my canvas shoes with it, making them bright white again.

我会把粉笔带回家，泡在水里，调成糊状，然后用它擦亮我的帆布鞋，让它们再次亮白。

30:49 For me, those shoes were a treasured possession, a symbol of great wealth, and I don’t exactly know why, but from childhood, our mother was extremely particular about cleanliness.

对我来说，那双鞋是一件宝贝，是巨大财富的象征，也不知道为什么，但从小到大，母亲就极其讲究清洁。

Perhaps that’s where we inherited that habit, too.

也许我们也继承了这个习惯。

Not sure how I picked up the habit of dressing neatly, but it’s been there since childhood.

不知道我是怎么养成穿着整齐的习惯的，但它是从小就有的。

Whatever I wore, I made sure it looked proper.

无论我穿什么，我都会确保它看起来合适。

Back then, as you can imagine, we didn’t have any arrangements for ironing clothes.

那时，你可以想象，我们没有任何熨烫衣服的安排。

So instead, I would heat up water in a copper pot, hold it with tongs, and press my clothes myself.

所以，我会在铜锅里烧水，用钳子夹住，然后自己熨衣服。

Then I’d head off to school.

然后我就去学校。

That’s how I lived, and I found joy in it.

我就是这样生活的，我从中找到了快乐。

We never thought about being poor, or judged about how others lived or what their struggles were.

我们从来没有考虑过贫穷，也没有评判别人的生活方式或他们的挣扎是什么。

31:45 We lived carefree, enjoying whatever little we had and kept working hard.

我们过着无忧无虑的生活，享受我们所拥有的一切，并继续努力工作。

Never once did we complain about these things.

我们从来没有抱怨过这些事情。

And all these aspects of my life, whether you call it fortune or misfortune, unfolded in such a way in politics that they started coming to light.

我生活中的所有这些方面，无论你称之为幸运还是不幸，都以这样一种方式在政治中展开，以至于它们开始被曝光。

Because when I was taking my oath as Chief Minister, TV reporters went to my village, questioned my childhood friends, went to capture videos of my home.

因为当我宣誓就任首席部长时，电视台记者来到我的村庄，询问我儿时的朋友，去拍摄我家的视频。

That’s when people started asking, “Who is this and what background he is coming from?” Before that, very few knew much about my life.

就在那时，人们开始问：“这是谁？他来自什么背景？”在此之前，很少有人了解我的生活。

That’s just how my journey has been.

我的旅程就是这样。

My mother possessed an innate spirit of caring for others’ well-being.

我的母亲具有一种与生俱来的关心他人福祉的精神。

It was woven into the very fabric of her being.

它已经融入了她的生命结构中。

She possessed knowledge of traditional remedies and healing practices, and would treat children with these home remedies.

她拥有传统疗法和治疗方法的知识，并会用这些家庭疗法来治疗儿童。

Every morning before sunrise, around five o’clock, she would start treating them, so all the children and their parents would gather at our home, little children crying, and we had to wake up early because of it.

每天早上日出前，五点左右，她就开始给他们治疗，所以所有的孩子和他们的父母都会聚集在我们家，小孩子哭着，我们不得不早起。

33:02 And we had to wake up early because of it.

因此我们不得不早起。

Meanwhile, my mother would continue treating them with care.

与此同时，我的母亲会继续细心地对待他们。

This spirit of service, in a way, was nurtured through these experiences.

在某种程度上，这种服务精神是通过这些经历培养起来的。

A sense of empathy for society, the desire to do good for others, these values were instilled in me from my family.

对社会的同理心、为他人做好事的愿望，这些价值观都是从我的家庭灌输给我的。

I believe that my life has been shaped by my mother, my father, my teachers, and the environment I grew up in.

我相信我的生活是由我的母亲、父亲、老师和我成长的环境塑造的。

There’s a lot of young people listening to this that are truly inspired by your story.

有很多年轻人在听这个故事，他们真正受到你的故事的启发。

33:33 From those humble beginnings to the leader of the biggest democracy in the world, what can you tell to those young folks who are struggling, who are lost in the world, who are trying to find their way?

从卑微的出身到世界上最大民主国家的领导人，您可以向那些正在挣扎、在世界中迷失、正在努力寻找出路的年轻人说些什么？

What advice could you give them?

你能给他们什么建议？

I want to tell all the young people the following.

我想告诉所有的年轻人以下几点。

34:00 No matter how dark the night may seem, it is still just night, and morning is bound to come.

无论夜晚看起来多么黑暗，它仍然只是夜晚，黎明一定会到来。

That’s why we need patience and self-confidence.

这就是为什么我们需要耐心和自信。

Yes, the challenges are real, but I am not defined by my circumstances.

是的，挑战是真实的，但我并不受我的环境限制。

I am here for a purpose, sent by a higher power, and I am not alone.

我来这里是为了一个目的，是受更高力量的派遣，而且我并不孤单。

The one who sent me is always with me.

派我来的人永远与我同在。

This unwavering faith should always remain within us.

这种坚定不移的信念应该永远留在我们心中。

Difficulties are a test of endurance.

困难是对耐力的考验。

They are not meant to defeat me.

他们并不是要打败我。

Hardships exist to make me stronger, helping me grow and improve, not to leave me feeling hopeless or discouraged.

困难的存在是为了让我变得更坚强，帮助我成长和进步，而不是让我感到绝望或灰心。

Personally, I see every crisis, every challenge as an opportunity.

就我个人而言，我将每一次危机、每一次挑战都视为机遇。

35:12 So, to all young people, I say, have patience.

所以，我对所有年轻人说，要有耐心。

There are no shortcuts in life.

人生没有捷径。

At our railway stations, there hangs a sign for those who habitually cross the tracks instead of using the bridge, it reads, “Shortcut will cut you short.” I would tell young people the same, shortcut will cut you short.

在我们的火车站，为那些习惯过铁轨而不走桥的人挂了一块牌子，上面写着：“走捷径会缩短你的路程。”我也会对年轻人说同样的话，捷径会让你走投无路。

There are no shortcuts in life.

人生没有捷径。

Patience and perseverance are essential.

耐心和毅力至关重要。

Whatever responsibility we are given, we must pour our heart into it.

无论我们被赋予什么责任，我们都必须全身心投入。

We should live it with passion.

我们应该充满激情地生活。

Enjoy the journey and find fulfillment in it.

享受旅程并在其中找到满足感。

I truly believe that if this mindset is cultivated, it transforms life.

我坚信，如果培养这种心态，它就会改变生活。

Similarly, abundance alone is not enough.

同样，仅有丰富是不够的。

There is no guarantee of success.

没有成功的保证。

Even a wealthy person who indulges in comfort and idleness will eventually wither away.

即使是一个富有的人，沉迷于安逸和游手好闲，最终也会消亡。

36:09 Instead, he must decide, “Yes, I may have resources around me, but I must use my abilities to grow them further.

相反，他必须决定：“是的，我周围可能有资源，但我必须利用我的能力来进一步发展它们。

I must contribute more to society with my own strength.

我一定要以自己的力量为社会做出更多的贡献。

Even if I am in a good position, there is still so much more to do.

即使我的处境很好，但我还有很多事情要做。

Even if I am not in a good position, there is still so much work to do.” That’s what I believe.

即使我的位置不太好，但还有很多工作要做。”这就是我所相信的。

I have also noticed that some people tend to think, “I’ve learned enough.

我还注意到，有些人倾向于认为：“我已经学得足够多了。

That’s it.” But one should never let the student within them die.

就是这样。”但我们不应该让其中的学生死去。

Learning should never stop.

学习永远不应该停止。

I believe that as long as I am alive, I must have a purpose.

我相信，只要我还活着，就一定有一个目标。

Perhaps I exist to keep learning, to keep growing.

也许我的存在是为了不断学习，不断成长。

Now, my mother tongue is Gujarati, and we were not very familiar with the Hindi language, nor did we know how to speak it eloquently or communicate effectively.

现在，我的母语是古吉拉特语，我们对印地语不是很熟悉，也不知道如何流利地讲它或有效地沟通。

But as a child, I used to sit at my father’s tea shop, and at that young age, I got the chance to meet so many people.

但小时候，我经常坐在父亲的茶馆里，在那么小的年纪，我就有机会认识很多人。

And every time, I learned something from them, I observed their ways of speaking, their expressions.

每一次，我都从他们身上学到了一些东西，我观察他们说话的方式，他们的表情。

These things taught me a lot, even though I wasn’t in a position to apply it then, I thought, “If I ever get the chance, why not?

这些事情教会了我很多，尽管我当时还无法应用它，但我想，“如果我有机会，为什么不呢？

Why shouldn’t I present myself well?” So, I believe the desire to learn should always remain alive.

我为什么不应该好好表现自己呢？”因此，我认为学习的愿望应该永远保持下去。

And another thing I’ve observed is that most people dream about achieving something or becoming someone.

我观察到的另一件事是，大多数人都梦想实现某些目标或成为某人。

They set big targets and when they fall short, they feel disappointed.

他们设定了宏伟的目标，当达不到目标时，他们会感到失望。

38:19 That’s why whenever I get a chance to talk to my friends, I tell them, instead of dreaming about getting and becoming, dream of doing something.

这就是为什么每当我有机会与朋友交谈时，我都会告诉他们，不要梦想着获得和成为，而是梦想着做某事。

If you focus on doing something, and let’s say your goal is to reach 10, but you make it to eight, you won’t feel discouraged.

如果你专注于做某件事，假设你的目标是达到 10 分，但你做到了 8 分，你就不会感到灰心。

You’ll still work toward 10 with determination.

你仍然会坚定地朝着 10 目标努力。

But if your dream is only to become something and it doesn’t happen, even your achievements may feel like a burden.

但如果你的梦想只是成为某种东西而它没有实现，那么即使你的成就也可能感觉像是一种负担。

That’s why we must adjust our mindset in life.

所以我们在生活中一定要调整心态。

Instead of thinking about what I got or didn’t get, the mindset should be what can I give?

心态应该是我能给予什么，而不是思考我得到了什么或没有得到什么？

Because true contentment doesn’t bloom on its own.

因为真正的满足不会自行绽放。

It grows from the depth of what you give.

它从你给予的深度中成长。

And I should say that this young kid, one of the things I’ve dreamed of doing is to do this very thing, to talk to you today.

我应该说，这个年轻人，我梦想做的事情之一就是做这件事，今天和你说话。

39:16 So, this is very surreal.

所以，这是非常超现实的。

At 17, another fascinating part of your life.

17 岁，这是你人生中另一个迷人的部分。

You left home and spent two years roaming in the Himalayas, searching for purpose, for deeper truth, for God.

你离开家，在喜马拉雅山漫游了两年，寻找目的、更深层次的真理、寻找上帝。

So, not much is known about this period of your life.

因此，我们对您人生的这段时期知之甚少。

You lived a nomadic, minimalist existence, very much like a yogi, often sleeping without a roof over your head.

你过着游牧、极简主义的生活，非常像瑜伽修行者，经常睡在没有屋顶的地方。

What are some memorable spiritual moments, rituals, experiences from that time?

当时有哪些令人难忘的精神时刻、仪式、经历？

It seems like you’ve put in a lot of effort.

看来你付出了很多努力。

39:59 Look, I don’t usually talk much about this, but I can share a few external aspects of it.

你看，我通常不会谈论太多，但我可以分享一些它的外部方面。

I grew up in a very small town.

我在一个很小的小镇长大。

Our life was all about being part of a community.

我们的生活就是成为社区的一部分。

We lived among people, surrounded by them.

我们生活在人群之中，被他们包围。

That was just how life was.

生活就是这样。

There was a library in the village, and I used to go there often to read books.

村里有一个图书馆，我以前经常去那里看书。

Whenever I read something from the books, I often found myself feeling inspired, thinking, “Why shouldn’t I shape my own life like that?” That desire was always there.

每当我读到书中的一些内容时，我常常发现自己受到启发，思考：“为什么我不应该这样塑造自己的生活呢？”那个愿望一直都在。

When I used to read about Swami Vivekananda or read about Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj, I would often wonder, “How did they live?

当我读到斯瓦米·维韦卡南达或贾特拉帕蒂·希瓦吉·马哈拉吉的故事时，我经常想知道，“他们是如何生活的？

How did they build such remarkable lives?” And for that, I constantly experimented on myself.

他们是如何创造出如此非凡的生活的？”为此，我不断地对自己进行实验。

Most of my experiments were physical in nature, testing my body’s limits.

我的大部分实验都是物理性质的，测试我身体的极限。

41:20 For example, where I lived, winters weren’t too harsh, but December nights could get quite cold.

例如，我住的地方，冬天不太严酷，但十二月的夜晚可能会变得很冷。

But still, at night, the cold would bite.

但到了晚上，寒冷仍然会刺骨。

It was natural.

这是很自然的。

So, sometimes I would decide to sleep outside in the open with nothing to cover myself, just to see how my body endures the cold.

所以，有时我会决定露宿在外面，不穿任何衣服，只是为了看看我的身体如何忍受寒冷。

So, from a very young age, I would often experiment with my body, and this became a regular thing for me.

所以，从很小的时候起，我就经常尝试自己的身体，这对我来说已经是一件很平常的事情了。

For me, going to the library, reading extensively, visiting the pond, washing the family’s clothes, and swimming became part of my routine.

对我来说，去图书馆、广泛阅读、参观池塘、给家人洗衣服、游泳已经成为我日常生活的一部分。

Swimming was my main physical activity.

游泳是我的主要体育活动。

All of these things were deeply connected to my life.

所有这些事情都与我的生活紧密相连。

Later as I read Vivekananda, I became even more drawn to his teachings.

后来当我读到维韦卡南达时，我对他的教义更加着迷。

One time I read about Swami Vivekananda, his mother was ill.

有一次我读到斯瓦米·维韦卡南达的故事，他的母亲病了。

So, he went to Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa for guidance.

因此，他向室利罗摩克里希那帕拉玛罕萨寻求指导。

He would argue with him, debate with him.

他会和他争论，和他辩论。

In his early days, he would often argue with him, questioning everything intellectually.

早年，他经常与他争论，从理智上质疑一切。

43:10 He said, “My mother is sick.

他说：“我妈妈病了。

If I were earning, I could take better care of her.” Sri Ramakrishna said, “Don’t bother me with all this.

如果我能赚钱，我就能更好地照顾她。”室利罗摩克里希纳说：“别用这些来烦我。

Go to Goddess Kali.

去找卡莉女神。

She is there.

她就在那里。

Ask her for what you need.” And so, Swami Vivekananda went and sat before Goddess Kali’s idol for hours, and he immersed himself into deep meditation.

需要什么就问她。”于是，斯瓦米·维韦卡南达 (Swami Vivekananda) 在卡利女神的偶像前坐了几个小时，沉浸在深度冥想中。

After a few hours when he returned, Ramakrishna asked him, “So, did you request the goddess?” Swami Vivekananda replied, “No, I didn’t.” Ramakrishna said, “Go again tomorrow.

几个小时后，当他回来时，罗摩克里希纳问他：“那么，你向女神祈求了吗？”斯瓦米·维韦卡南达回答说：“不，我没有。”罗摩克里希纳说：“明天再去。

She will fulfill your request.

她会满足你的要求。

Ask her.” He went the next day and then again the day after.

问问她吧。”第二天他去了，后天又去了。

But each time, he found himself unable to ask for anything.

但每一次，他都发现自己无法要求什么。

His mother was unwell and he needed help, but when he sat before Goddess Kali, he was completely absorbed in her presence, and yet he could not bring himself to ask for anything.

他的母亲身体不适，他需要帮助，但当他坐在卡莉女神面前时，他全神贯注于她的存在，却无法提出任何要求。

44:29 Each time he returned empty-handed.

每次他都空手而归。

He told Sri Ramakrishna, “I came back empty-handed.

他告诉室利罗摩克里希纳：“我空手而归。

I didn’t ask for anything.” To stand before the divine goddess and not be able to ask for anything, that moment, that experience lit a flame inside him.

我什么也没要求。”站在神女面前却无法祈求什么的那一刻，那种经历点燃了他内心的火焰。

There was a spark in his life.

他的生命中出现了火花。

And from that came the spirit of giving.

由此产生了奉献精神。

I believe that perhaps that small incident in Vivekananda’s life left an impression on me too.

我想也许维韦卡南达生活中的那件小事也给我留下了深刻的印象。

The thought of, “What can I give to the world?” Maybe true contentment comes from giving.

“我能为世界奉献什么？”的想法。也许真正的满足来自于付出。

If my heart is only filled with the hunger to receive, that hunger will never end.

如果我的心只充满了接受的饥饿，那么这种饥饿将永远不会结束。

And within that realization came the idea of Shiva and living being as one.

在这种认识中产生了湿婆和生物合一的想法。

If you wish to serve Shiva, serve all living beings.

如果你想服务湿婆，就服务一切众生。

Recognize the unity between the divine and the living.

认识神圣与生命之间的统一。

True non-duality is experience through this realization.

真正的非二元性是通过这种认识而体验到的。

I would often lose myself in such thoughts.

我常常会在这样的想法中迷失自己。

My mind naturally drifting in that direction.

我的心思自然而然地往那个方向飘去。

45:58 I remember an incident in the neighborhood where we lived, just outside there was a Lord Shiva temple.

我记得我们住的附近发生过一件事，外面有一座湿婆神庙。

One day a saint came to stay there.

有一天，一位圣人来到那里住下。

So, that saint used to engage in meditation and spiritual practices.

所以，那位圣人过去常常进行冥想和精神实践。

I started feeling drawn to him thinking perhaps he possessed some spiritual energy.

我开始被他吸引，想也许他拥有某种精神能量。

I had only read about Swami Vivekananda, never seen such figures in real life.

我只读过斯瓦米·维韦卡南达的故事，从未在现实生活中见过这样的人物。

During Navratri, he was fasting and he had placed sorghum grains on his hand, a common tradition in our culture.

在九夜节期间，他斋戒并将高粱粒放在手上，这是我们文化中的常见传统。

In a way, sprouting seeds on your palms and sleeping like that for nine or 10 days, it was a kind of spiritual vow, and this saint was observing it.

从某种意义上说，在你的手掌上发芽种子，然后像这样睡上九天或十天，这是一种精神誓言，而这位圣人正在遵守它。

During those same days, my maternal uncle’s family was preparing for my aunt’s wedding.

那几天，舅舅家正在为舅妈准备婚礼。

Everyone from my home was going to my uncle’s house for the wedding.

我家里的每个人都要去我叔叔家参加婚礼。

47:07 Now, for any child, visiting an uncle’s house is always exciting.

现在，对于任何孩子来说，拜访叔叔家总是令人兴奋的。

But I told my family, “I’m not going.

但我告诉家人：“我不去。

I’ll stay here and I will take care of Swamiji.

我会留在这里并照顾斯瓦米吉。

Since he has these grains on his hand, he can’t eat or drink, so I will take care of him.” So, as a child, I chose not to attend the wedding.

他手上有这些粮食，不能吃不能喝，所以我来照顾他。”所以，小时候，我选择不参加婚礼。

I stayed back serving Swamiji instead.

我留在后面为斯瓦米吉服务。

Somehow my mind was naturally drawn in that direction.

不知何故，我的思绪自然而然地被吸引到了那个方向。

At times, whenever soldiers from my village came home during their holidays, they would walk around in their uniforms with such pride.

有时，每当我们村的士兵放假回家时，他们都会穿着制服自豪地走来走去。

I would run behind them all day thinking, “Look at them.

我会整天跑在他们身后想着：“看看他们。

They are serving the nation.” So, there was always a strong feeling inside me to do something meaningful.

他们正在为国家服务。”所以，我内心一直有一种强烈的感觉，想做一些有意义的事情。

I didn’t fully understand what it would be, and I didn’t have a roadmap.

我并不完全明白它会是什么，也没有路线图。

There was a hunger within me, a deep longing to understand life, to explore its meaning.

我内心有一种渴望，一种理解生命、探索生命意义的深深渴望。

So, I just set out and began the journey.

于是，我就出发了，开始了旅程。

48:11 During my time in the mission, I came across remarkable saints.

在传教期间，我遇到了杰出的圣徒。

They showered me with love and blessings.

他们向我倾注了爱和祝福。

Among them, I formed a special bond with Swami Atmasthanandji.

其中，我与斯瓦米·阿特马斯坦南吉 (Swami Atmasthanandji) 建立了特殊的联系。

He lived for nearly 100 years, a life full of wisdom and service.

他活了近一百岁，一生充满智慧和服务。

In his final years, I deeply wished for him to stay with me at the Prime Minister’s residence, but his responsibilities were vast and he couldn’t come.

在他晚年的时候，我深切地希望他能留在首相官邸陪我，但他的责任重大，他不能来。

However, back when I was chief minister, he used to visit and I was fortunate to receive his blessings and guidance.

然而，当我担任首席部长时，他经常来拜访，我很幸运得到他的祝福和指导。

He once looked at me and said, “Why have you come here?

有一次他看着我说：“你为什么来这里？

You have a greater purpose to fulfill.

你有一个更伟大的目标要实现。

Is your priority your own well-being?

你的首要任务是你自己的福祉吗？

Or is it the welfare of society?

还是社会的福利？

Whatever Swami Vivekananda said was for the betterment of society.

斯瓦米·维韦卡南达所说的一切都是为了社会的进步。

He said you are meant to serve others.” So, I remember feeling a bit disheartened at that moment.

他说你应该为别人服务。”所以，我记得那一刻我感到有点沮丧。

I had come seeking guidance, but all I got were words.

我是来寻求指导的，但我得到的只是言语。

49:20 So, I continued on my journey, wandering from place to place.

于是，我继续我的旅程，从一个地方流浪到另一个地方。

I spent time in the Himalayas embracing the solitude of the mountains.

我在喜马拉雅山度过了一段时光，拥抱群山的孤独。

I met many remarkable individuals along the way.

一路上我遇到了很多杰出的人物。

Some were great ascetics, people who had renounced everything, but still my mind remained restless.

有些人是伟大的苦行僧，放弃了一切，但我的心仍然焦躁不安。

Perhaps it was my age of curiosity, of wanting to learn, to understand.

也许这是我好奇、想要学习、想要理解的年龄。

It was a new experience, a world shaped by the mountains, by ice, by the towering snow-covered peaks.

这是一种全新的体验，一个由山脉、冰雪和白雪覆盖的高耸山峰塑造的世界。

But all of this played a huge role in shaping me.

但所有这些都对塑造我发挥了巨大作用。

It strengthened me from within and enabled me to discover my inner power.

它从内部增强了我的力量，使我能够发现自己的内在力量。

Practicing meditation, waking up in the sacred pre-dawn hours, bathing in the cold, serving people with devotion and naturally tending to elderly saints became a seamless part of who I was.

练习冥想，在神圣的黎明前醒来，在寒冷中沐浴，虔诚地为人们服务，自然地照顾年长的圣人，这些都成为我的一部分。

Once, a natural calamity struck the region, and I immediately devoted myself to helping the villagers.

有一次，当地发生自然灾害，我立即投入到帮助村民的工作中。

So, these were the saints and spiritual masters with whom I stayed from time to time.

所以，这些就是我时不时呆在一起的圣人和灵性导师。

I never remained in one place for long, I kept moving, constantly wandering.

我从来没有在一个地方停留太久，我一直在移动，不断地徘徊。

That was the kind of life I lived.

我就是这样的生活。

And for people who don’t know, that moment in the Ramakrishna Mission Ashram with the monk, Swami Atmasthananda, as you mentioned, he helped steer you towards a life of service.

对于那些不知道的人来说，正如您所提到的，在罗摩克里希纳传道院与僧人斯瓦米·阿特马斯塔南达在一起的那一刻，他帮助引导您走向服务生活。

50:45 So, there’s another possible life that could have been where you take Sannyasa, you give away everything, and you’re a monk.

所以，还有另一种可能的生活，那就是你接受托钵僧，放弃一切，成为一名和尚。

So, we could have had a monk, Narendra Modi, and Prime Minister Narendra Modi, and he helped you take the decision to live a life of service at every scale

所以，我们本可以有一位僧侣纳伦德拉·莫迪和总理纳伦德拉·莫迪，他帮助你做出了在各个层面上过着服务生活的决定

From the outside, people may call me a leader.

从外面看，人们可能会称我为领导者。

51:21 Some call me the prime minister.

有人称我为首相。

Others call me the chief minister, and that’s how they see me from their perspective.

其他人称我为首席部长，这就是他们从他们的角度看待我的方式。

But deep within, there is only an unwavering spiritual commitment.

但内心深处，只有坚定不移的精神承诺。

The Modi, who lovingly helped his mother care for children during their treatments, tending to them with patience and compassion.

莫迪夫妇在治疗期间亲切地帮助母亲照顾孩子，耐心而富有同情心地照顾他们。

The Modi who wandered through the Himalayas.

漫步喜马拉雅山的莫迪。

And the Modi who now works from this seat of responsibility.

还有现在在这个责任宝座上工作的莫迪。

They are all tied together by the same inner consistency.

它们都通过相同的内在一致性联系在一起。

Every action is dedicated to serving others.

每一个行动都是为了服务他人。

People may see a stark difference between a saint and a leader, but to me, there is no real difference.

人们可能会看到圣人和领袖之间的明显区别，但对我来说，没有真正的区别。

Yes, the attire changes, the way of life changes.

是的，服装改变了，生活方式改变了。

The words spoken throughout the day shift and the nature of work evolves.

白班期间所说的话和工作性质都在变化。

But the core of my being remains unchanged, carrying out every responsibility with the same sense of calm, focus, and dedication.

但我的核心始终没有改变，以同样的冷静、专注和奉献精神履行每一项责任。

Another part of your life of who you are is you’ve spoken your whole life about putting your nation of India above all else.

你生活的另一部分是你一生都在谈论将你的印度国家置于一切之上。

52:33 When you were eight, you joined the RSS, which espouses the idea of Hindu nationalism.

当你八岁时，你加入了 RSS，该组织拥护印度教民族主义的理念。

Can you tell me about RSS and what impact they had on who you are and the development of your political ideas?

您能告诉我有关 RSS 的信息吗？它们对您本人以及您的政治理念的发展有何影响？

Ever since childhood, I always had the habit of staying engaged in something or the other.

从小到大，我总是有一种习惯，就是坚持做某件事。

52:58 I remember there was a man named Makoshi.

我记得有一个人，名叫马可西。

I don’t quite recall his full name.

我不太记得他的全名了。

I think he was part of the service group, Makoshi Soni or something like that.

我认为他是服务小组的成员，Makoshi Soni 之类的。

He used to carry a small drum-like instrument called the Tambourine with him, and he used to sing patriotic songs in his deep, powerful voice.

他常常随身携带一种名为手鼓的小鼓乐器，用低沉而有力的声音唱爱国歌曲。

Whenever he came to our village, he would hold programs in different places.

每次他来我们村，都会在不同的地方举办节目。

I would run after him like a crazy fan just to listen to his songs.

我会像一个疯狂的歌迷一样追着他，只是为了听他的歌。

I would spend entire nights listening to their patriotic songs.

我会整夜听他们的爱国歌曲。

I enjoyed it.

我很享受。

I don’t even know why, but I just did.

我什至不知道为什么，但我就是这么做了。

In our village, there was a branch of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, where we played sports and sang patriotic songs.

在我们村里，有一个 Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh 的分支机构，我们在那里进行体育运动并唱爱国歌曲。

Something about those songs touched me deeply.

这些歌曲中的某些东西深深地触动了我。

They stirred something inside me, and that’s how I eventually became part of the RSS.

他们激起了我内心的某些东西，这就是我最终成为 RSS 的一部分的原因。

One of the core values that were instilled in us at RSS was, whatever you do, do it with a purpose.

RSS 灌输给我们的核心价值观之一是，无论你做什么，都要有目的。

Even while studying, study with the goal of learning enough to contribute to the nation.

即使在学习期间，也要以学习足够的知识为国家做出贡献为目标。

Even when you exercise, do it with the purpose of strengthening your body to serve the nation.

即使你锻炼身体，也是为了强身健体，报效国家。

This is what we were taught.

这就是我们被教导的。

And today, RSS is a massive organization.

如今，RSS 已成为一个庞大的组织。

It is now nearing its 100th anniversary.

现在它已接近成立 100 周年。

Such a massive volunteer organization likely doesn’t exist anywhere else in the world.

世界其他地方可能不存在如此庞大的志愿者组织。

Millions of people are connected to it, but understanding RSS is not that simple.

数百万人与之相连，但理解 RSS 并不是那么简单。

One must make an effort to truly grasp the nature of its work.

必须努力真正把握其工作性质。

More than anything, the RSS provides you with a clear direction toward what can truly be called a purpose in life.

最重要的是，RSS 为您提供了一个明确的方向，以实现真正的人生目标。

Secondly, the nation is everything, and serving the people is akin to serving God.

其次，国家就是一切，为人民服务就像为上帝服务一样。

55:11 This is what has been said since the Vedic Era.

这是自吠陀时代以来一直流传的说法。

What our sages have said, what Vivekananda said and what the RSS echoes.

我们的圣贤说过的话，维韦卡南达说过的话，以及 RSS 所呼应的内容。

A volunteer is told that the inspiration he gains from RSS is not just about attending the one-hour session or wearing the uniform.

一名志愿者被告知，他从 RSS 中获得的灵感不仅仅是参加一小时的会议或穿着制服。

What matters is what you do for society.

重要的是你为社会做了什么。

And today, inspired by that spirit, many initiatives are thriving.

今天，在这种精神的鼓舞下，许多举措正在蓬勃发展。

Like some volunteers established an organization called Seva Bharati.

就像一些志愿者建立了一个名为 Seva Bharati 的组织。

This organization serves the slums and settlements where the poorest people live, which they call service communities.

该组织为最贫困人口居住的贫民窟和定居点提供服务，他们称之为服务社区。

To my knowledge, they run approximately 125,000 service projects without any government assistance, solely through community support.

据我所知，他们在没有任何政府援助的情况下，仅通过社区支持运行了大约 125,000 个服务项目。

They spend time there, teach the children, care for their health, instill good values and work towards improving cleanliness in these communities.

他们在那里度过时光，教育孩子们，关心他们的健康，灌输良好的价值观，并努力改善这些社区的清洁状况。

Running 125,000 social service projects is no small feat.

运行 125,000 个社会服务项目绝非易事。

56:20 Similarly, some volunteers nurtured by RSS are dedicated to serving tribal communities through Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram.

同样，RSS 培养的一些志愿者致力于通过 Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram 为部落社区服务。

They live among the tribal people, working for their welfare.

他们生活在部落人民中间，为他们的福利而工作。

They have established over 70,000 one-teacher schools in remote tribal regions.

他们在偏远部落地区建立了 70,000 多所单师学校。

There are also some people in America who show their support for this cause and contribute donations of about $10 or $15.

美国也有一些人对这一事业表示支持，捐款约10、15美元。

And they say, “Skip a Coca-Cola this month.

他们说：“这个月不要喝可口可乐。

Don’t drink Coca-Cola and donate that money to a one-teacher school instead.” Now, imagine 70,000 one-teacher schools dedicated to educating tribal children.

不要喝可口可乐，而是把钱捐给一所只有一名教师的学校。”现在，想象一下 70,000 所单师学校致力于教育部落儿童。

Some volunteers have founded Vidya Bharati to revolutionize education.

一些志愿者创立了 Vidya Bharati 来彻底改变教育。

Today they run nearly 25,000 schools educating around 3 million students, and I believe that millions of students have benefited from this initiative, receiving quality education at an incredibly low cost.

如今，他们经营着近 25,000 所学校，为大约 300 万学生提供教育，我相信数百万学生已从这一举措中受益，以极低的成本接受优质教育。

57:28 Alongside education, values are prioritized, and students remain grounded, learning skills so they don’t become a burden on society.

除了教育之外，价值观也是优先考虑的，学生保持脚踏实地，学习技能，这样他们就不会成为社会的负担。

That is in every aspect of life, whether it’s women, youth, or even laborers, the RSS has played a role.

那就是在生活的方方面面，无论是女性、青年，甚至是劳动者，RSS都发挥了作用。

In terms of membership size, if I may say so, we have the Indian Labor Union.

就成员规模而言，如果可以的话，我们有印度工会。

It has around 50,000 unions with millions of members across the country.

它在全国拥有约 50,000 个工会，拥有数百万会员。

Perhaps in terms of scale, there is no bigger labor union in the world.

或许从规模上来说，世界上没有比这更大的工会了。

But what’s interesting is the approach they take.

但有趣的是他们采取的方法。

Historically, leftist ideologies have fueled labor movements worldwide.

从历史上看，左翼意识形态推动了世界范围内的劳工运动。

And what has been their slogan?

他们的口号是什么？

“Workers of the world unite.” The message was clear.

“全世界工人联合起来。”信息很明确。

Unite first and then we’ll deal with everything else.

先团结起来，然后我们再处理其他的事情。

But what do the labor unions run by RSS-trained volunteers believe in?

但受过 RSS 培训的志愿者所管理的工会信仰什么？

They say, “Workers unite the world.” Others say, “Workers of the world unite.” And we say, “Workers unite the world.” It may seem like just a small shift in words, but it represents a huge ideological transformation.

他们说：“工人团结了世界。”其他人则说：“全世界无产者联合起来。”我们说：“工人团结了世界。”这看似只是言语上的一个小转变，但它代表了一个巨大的意识形态转变。

58:58 The volunteers who come from the RSS follow their own interests, nature and inclination, and in doing so, they strengthen and promote these kinds of activities.

来自RSS的志愿者遵循自己的兴趣、本性和倾向，并以此加强和推动此类活动。

When you observe these initiatives, you’ll see how over the past 100 years, the RSS has dedicated itself with the discipline and devotion of a seeker staying away from the glare of mainstream attention.

当您观察这些举措时，您会发现在过去的 100 年里，RSS 如何以探索者的纪律和奉献精神致力于远离主流关注的目光。

I feel blessed to gain life’s values from such a sacred organization.

我很幸运能够从这样一个神圣的组织中获得人生的价值观。

Through the RSS, I found a life of purpose.

通过 RSS，我找到了人生的目标。

Then I was fortunate to spend some time among the saints, which gave me a strong spiritual foundation.

然后我有幸在圣徒中间度过了一段时间，这给了我坚实的精神基础。

I found discipline and a life of purpose.

我找到了纪律和有目标的生活。

And through the guidance of saints, I gained spiritual grounding.

通过圣人的指导，我获得了精神基础。

Swami Atmasthananda and others like him have held my hand throughout my journey, constantly guiding me at every step.

斯瓦米·阿马斯塔南达和其他像他一样的人在我的整个旅程中一直握住我的手，在每一步中不断指导我。

The teachings of Ramakrishna Mission, Swami Vivekananda, and the service-driven philosophy of the RSS have played a crucial role in shaping me.

罗摩克里希那传教会、斯瓦米·维韦卡南达的教诲以及 RSS 的服务驱动理念在塑造我的过程中发挥了至关重要的作用。

But they’ve also helped push the idea of India.

但他们也帮助推动了印度的理念。

1:00:17 What is the idea that unifies India?

统一印度的理念是什么？

What is India as a nation?

印度是一个什么样的国家？

What is the foundational idea that unites all of these disparate worlds and communities and cultures?

将所有这些不同的世界、社区和文化联合起来的基本理念是什么？

What would it be?

会是什么？

Look, India is a cultural identity.

看，印度是一种文化认同。

1:00:40 It is a civilization that dates back thousands of years.

这是一个可以追溯到几千年前的文明。

Consider the vastness of India, over 100 languages, thousands of dialects.

印度幅员辽阔，有 100 多种语言、数千种方言。

India is so diverse that we have a saying that every 20 miles, the language changes, customs change, cuisine changes, even clothing styles shift from region to region.

印度是如此多元化，以至于我们有一种说法，每 20 英里，语言就会发生变化，习俗就会发生变化，美食就会发生变化，甚至服装风格也会因地区而异。

From the south to the north, you will see immense diversity across the country.

从南到北，您会看到全国各地的巨大多样性。

But if you dig a little deeper, you will find a common thread.

但如果你再深入一点，你就会发现一个共同点。

For example, the stories of Lord Ram can be heard everywhere in India.

例如，罗摩勋爵的故事在印度随处可见。

His name echoes in every corner of the country.

他的名字响彻全国各个角落。

But if you look closely from Tamil Nadu to Jammu and Kashmir, you will always find people whose names include Ram in some form.

但如果你仔细观察，从泰米尔纳德邦到查谟和克什米尔，你总会发现人们的名字中包含某种形式的拉姆。

In Gujarat, he might be called Rambhai.

在古吉拉特邦，他可能被称为 Rambhai。

In Tamil Nadu, Ramachandra, and in Maharashtra, Rambhau.

泰米尔纳德邦的拉马钱德拉 (Ramachandra) 和马哈拉施特拉邦的拉姆豪 (Rambhau)。

1:02:07 This unique cultural bond is what unites India as one civilization.

这种独特的文化纽带使印度成为一个文明。

Take something as simple as bathing in water.

就拿用水洗澡这样简单的事情来说吧。

We have a ritual where all the rivers of India are remembered.

我们有一个仪式，纪念印度所有的河流。

They chant, ” I am bathing with the waters of all these rivers: Ganga, Yamuna, Godavari, Saraswati, Narmada, Sindhu, Kaveri.” It’s a sentiment that unites a nation, and we have a long tradition of making such resolutions at the beginning of important events and rituals.

他们唱道：“我正在用所有这些河流的水沐浴：恒河、亚穆纳河、戈达瓦里河、萨拉斯瓦蒂河、讷尔默达河、辛杜河、卡维里河。”这是一种团结整个国家的情感，我们有着在重要活动和仪式开始时做出此类决议的悠久传统。

And the resolution itself can present a historical record.

而该决议本身就可以创造历史记录。

And in so doing serve as a way of collecting and preserving historical data.

这样做可以作为收集和保存历史数据的一种方式。

It has been an incredibly unique system, guided meticulously by our scriptures.

这是一个极其独特的系统，以我们的经文精心指导。

When someone makes a resolution, performs a Puja, or even during weddings, we start by invoking the entire universe, beginning with Jambudweep, Bharatkhand, Aryavrat, and gradually narrow it down to the village, then mentioning the specific family, and finally, we invoke the family deity.

当有人做出决定、举行法会、甚至在婚礼期间，我们首先祈求整个宇宙，从 Jambudweep、Bharatkhand、Aryavrat 开始，逐渐缩小到村庄，然后提到特定的家庭，最后，我们祈求家庭神。

This practice is still alive, happening daily in every corner of India, but sadly, the Western and global models began viewing nations only as administrative systems.

这种做法仍然存在，每天都在印度的每个角落发生，但可悲的是，西方和全球模式开始仅将国家视为行政系统。

India, however, has had a variety of administrative systems throughout history, many systems were fragmented, scattered and varied across regions.

然而，印度历史上曾有过多种行政制度，许多制度在不同地区是支离破碎、分散且各异的。

Kings and rulers were numerous, but India’s unity lay in cultural bonds.

国王和统治者众多，但印度的团结在于文化纽带。

Pilgrimage traditions played a key role in preserving this unity.

朝圣传统在维护这种团结方面发挥了关键作用。

Shankaracharya established the four pilgrimage sites.

商羯罗查亚建立了四个朝圣地。

Even today, millions of people travel from one place to another for pilgrimage.

即使在今天，仍有数百万人从一个地方前往另一个地方朝圣。

In Kashi, you’ll find people who bring water from Rameshwaram to Kashi and take water from Kashi to Rameshwaram.

在喀什，你会发现有人从拉梅什瓦拉姆把水运到喀什，或者从喀什把水运到拉梅什瓦拉姆。

Even if you look at our Hindu calendar, you’ll find so many things across the country that you can’t even imagine.

即使您查看我们的印度教日历，您也会发现全国各地有很多您无法想象的事情。

If we look at the historical foundation of modern India, along with yourself, Mahatma Gandhi is one of the most important humans to have ever lived, but certainly one of the most important humans to the history of India.

如果我们和你一起审视现代印度的历史基础，圣雄甘地是有史以来最重要的人之一，而且肯定是印度历史上最重要的人之一。

1:04:27 What do you admire about Mahatma Gandhi?

您对圣雄甘地有何钦佩？

As I had mentioned before, I was born in Gujarat, and Gujarati is my mother tongue.

正如我之前提到的，我出生在古吉拉特邦，古吉拉特语是我的母语。

1:04:55 Mahatma Gandhi was also born in Gujarat.

圣雄甘地也出生于古吉拉特邦。

His native language was Gujarati too.

他的母语也是古吉拉特语。

He pursued a career as an attorney and lived overseas for several years.

他从事律师职业并在海外生活了几年。

He had plenty of great opportunities, but the deep sense of duty within him, along with the values instilled by his family, led him to give up all comforts and devote his life to serving the people of India.

他有很多很好的机会，但他内心深处的责任感，加上家人灌输的价值观，使他放弃一切舒适，一生致力于为印度人民服务。

He joined the struggle for India’s independence, and to this day, he continues to deeply influence the life of every Indian in some way.

他加入了印度独立的斗争，直到今天，他仍在以某种方式深刻影响着每个印度人的生活。

Mahatma Gandhi tried to live by his principles and practiced what he preached.

圣雄甘地努力遵循他的原则并实践他所宣扬的。

For example, he strongly advocated for cleanliness and practiced it-

比如，他极力提倡清洁并践行——

1:06:03 He strongly advocated for cleanliness and practiced it himself, and he made it a point to discuss cleanliness wherever he went.

他极力提倡清洁，并亲自践行，所到之处都讲清洁。

Another key factor to consider is India’s fight for independence.

另一个需要考虑的关键因素是印度争取独立的斗争。

India was ruled by the Mughals, the British, and several other foreign powers.

印度由莫卧儿王朝、英国和其他几个外国列强统治。

Despite being bound by the shackles of colonial rule for centuries, the flame of independence burned brightly in every corner and nook of India, never fading, always fueling the desire for freedom.

尽管几个世纪以来一直受到殖民统治的枷锁束缚，但独立的火焰在印度的每一个角落都熊熊燃烧，永不熄灭，始终点燃人们对自由的渴望。

Millions of people sacrificed their lives so the light of freedom could shine on India.

数百万人牺牲了生命，让自由之光照耀印度。

They laid down their lives for freedom, sacrificing their youth behind prison walls.

他们为了自由献出了生命，在监狱高墙内牺牲了自己的青春。

Mahatma Gandhi also fought for India’s independence, but in his own way, indeed the other freedom fighters were brave warriors and devoted sons of Mother India.

圣雄甘地也为印度的独立而战，但以他自己的方式，其他自由战士确实是勇敢的战士和印度母亲忠诚的儿子。

They came, they fought and their martyrdom immortalized them, and they did indeed have a lasting impact.

他们来了，他们战斗，他们的殉难使他们永垂不朽，他们确实产生了持久的影响。

1:07:15 But it was Mahatma Gandhi who awakened the nation, leading a mass movement fueled by truth and he wove even a sweeper into the very fabric of the freedom struggle.

但正是圣雄甘地唤醒了这个国家，领导了一场由真理推动的群众运动，他甚至将一名清道夫融入了自由斗争的结构中。

He told teachers their work was part of the freedom struggle.

他告诉老师们，他们的工作是自由斗争的一部分。

He told the people spinning thread and weaving clothes, they were freedom fighters.

他告诉人们纺线、织布，他们是自由战士。

He told those tending to lepers that their service was a step toward India’s freedom.

他告诉那些照顾麻风病人的人​​，他们的服务是印度迈向自由的一步。

He viewed every task as a vital thread in the fabric of India’s independence movement, and this transformed India’s common man into a soldier in the quest for freedom.

他将每一项任务视为印度独立运动的一条重要线索，这将印度的普通民众转变为追求自由的士兵。

Gandhi forged a mass movement so immense that the British could never fully grasp it.

甘地发起了一场规模如此巨大的群众运动，以至于英国人永远无法完全掌握它。

The British never imagined that a pinch of salt from the Dandi March could spark a massive revolution, and he made it happen.

英国人从来没有想到丹迪游行中的一小撮盐可以引发一场大规模的革命，而他让这一切发生了。

And his life, presence, style, mannerisms all left a profound impact, and I have seen many of his stories evolve into timeless legends.

他的生活、存在、风格、举止都留下了深远的影响，我看到他的许多故事演变成永恒的传奇。

1:08:24 I recall an incident from a Roundtable Conference.

我记得圆桌会议上的一件事。

Yeah, I believe he was attending a Roundtable Conference.

是的，我相信他正在参加圆桌会议。

He was supposed to meet King George at the Buckingham Palace draped in his breechcloth.

他本来应该穿着马裤在白金汉宫会见乔治国王。

Mahatma Gandhi made his way to the palace.

圣雄甘地前往宫殿。

Many people were amazed that he had showed up in that attire to meet the King.

很多人都对他穿着这身衣服出现在国王面前感到惊讶。

Gandhi remarked he didn’t need to wear a lot of clothes.

甘地说他不需要穿很多衣服。

He said, “Your king is wearing enough clothes for the both of us.” This was the whimsical charm of his nature.

他说：“你们的国王穿的衣服足够我们俩穿了。”这就是他本性的异想天开的魅力。

Mahatma Gandhi possessed many remarkable qualities.

圣雄甘地拥有许多卓越的品质。

His call for unity and recognition of the people’s strength still resonates with me.

他对团结和承认人民力量的呼吁仍然引起我的共鸣。

In everything I do, I strive to include the common man and to ensure the participation of as many as possible.

在我所做的每一件事中，我都努力让普通人参与进来，并确保尽可能多的人参与。

I don’t believe in leaving everything to the government.

我不相信把一切都交给政府。

I am a firm believer in the power of social change.

我坚信社会变革的力量。

So he was probably one of the greatest leaders of the 20th century.

所以他可能是20世纪最伟大的领导人之一。

1:09:46 You are one of the greatest leaders of the 21st century.

您是 21 世纪最伟大的领导人之一。

Those two centuries are very different, and you have been masterful in the game, in the art of geopolitics.

这两个世纪非常不同，你们在游戏、地缘政治艺术方面都很精通。

So let me ask you, you have found a balance.

所以我问你，你已经找到了平衡点。

So when negotiating on the world stage with super-powerful nations, is it better to be loved or feared?

那么，当在世界舞台上与超级强国谈判时，是被爱好还是被畏惧好呢？

It seems like you are a masterclass of being loved by everybody, but everybody knows and feels the strength, so finding that balance.

看起来你是一个被每个人爱着的大师级人物，但每个人都知道并感受到你的力量，所以找到平衡。

Can you speak to that balance?

你能谈谈这种平衡吗？

First and foremost, I don’t think this is a fair comparison.

首先，我认为这是一个不公平的比较。

1:10:41 Mahatma Gandhi wasn’t just a 20th-century leader.

圣雄甘地不仅仅是一位 20 世纪的领导人。

His relevance transcends centuries.

他的影响力跨越了几个世纪。

Mahatma Gandhi’s legacy will last for centuries to come, and he remains relevant to date.

圣雄甘地的遗产将持续几个世纪，并且至今仍然具有重要意义。

As far as I am concerned, I have a responsibility to fulfill, yet the weight of that responsibility pales in comparison to my country.

就我而言，我有责任去履行，但与我的国家相比，这种责任的分量就相形见绌了。

I am nowhere near as great as my country, and my strength lies not in my name, but in the backing of 1.4 billion Indians and thousands of years of timeless culture and heritage.

我远不及我的国家那么伟大，我的力量不在于我的名字，而在于14亿印度人民和数千年永恒文化和遗产的支持。

So wherever I go, I carry with me the essence of thousands of years of Vedic tradition, the timeless teachings of Swami Vivekananda, and the blessings, dreams and aspirations of 1.4 billion Indians.

因此，无论我走到哪里，我都带着数千年吠陀传统的精髓、斯瓦米·维韦卡南达永恒的教义，以及 14 亿印度人的祝福、梦想和愿望。

When I shake hands with a world leader, it’s not Modi, but 1.4 billion Indians doing so.

当我与世界领导人握手时，握手的不是莫迪，而是 14 亿印度人。

So this isn’t my strength at all.

所以这根本不是我的强项。

It is rather the strength of India.

这是印度的实力。

1:12:10 You see, I recall something that happened all the way back in 2013.

你看，我记得2013年发生的一件事。

It was when my party declared I would be their prime ministerial candidate.

就在那时，我的政党宣布我将成为他们的总理候选人。

My critics often tried to corner me on one point.

我的批评者经常试图在某一点上逼迫我。

It became a topic of widespread discussion, Modi is nothing more than a state leader.

成为人们广泛讨论的话题，莫迪只不过是一个国家领导人。

What does he know of foreign policy?

他对外交政策了解多少？

Does he even understand global geopolitics?

他了解全球地缘政治吗？

This was on everyone’s lips, and I was asked this question in every interview.

每个人都在谈论这个问题，我在每次采访中都被问到这个问题。

I gave a very well-thought-out answer at the time.

我当时给出了一个经过深思熟虑的答案。

I said, “I won’t lay out my entire foreign policy in an interview, nor is it needed.” That said, India will neither allow itself to be looked down upon, nor will it ever look up to anyone.

我说：“我不会在采访中阐述我的全部外交政策，也没有必要。”尽管如此，印度不会让自己被人瞧不起，也不会高看任何人。

India will now see eye-to-eye with her counterparts.

印度现在将与其他国家意见一致。

This was my belief in 2013, and it still lies at the heart of my foreign policy.

这是我在 2013 年的信念，现在仍然是我外交政策的核心。

For me, the country always comes first.

对我来说，国家永远是第一位的。

However, to belittle someone or speaking ill of others is neither part of my cultural values nor my traditions.

然而，贬低某人或说他人坏话既不属于我的文化价值观，也不属于我的传统。

Moreover, our culture upholds and advocates for the welfare of mankind.

此外，我们的文化坚持和倡导人类的福祉。

1:13:45 India has always championed the ideas of global peace and brotherhood.

印度始终倡导全球和平与兄弟情谊的理念。

For centuries, we have envisioned the world as one big family.

几个世纪以来，我们一直将世界视为一个大家庭。

Our noble ancestors envisaged the welfare of the whole world and universe, and that’s why you must have noticed, the nature of our conversations as well as the ideas that I have presented on the global stage, which are rooted in respect and positivity.

我们高贵的祖先设想了整个世界和宇宙的福祉，这就是为什么你一定注意到了，我们对话的本质以及我在全球舞台上提出的想法，这些想法植根于尊重和积极性。

For example, I spoke about the environment in one of my speeches.

例如，我在一次演讲中谈到了环境。

I proposed the concept of one sun, one world, one grid.

我提出了一个太阳、一个世界、一个网格的概念。

During the COVID pandemic, I delivered a speech at the G20 summit.

新冠疫情期间，我在二十国集团峰会上发表演讲。

I put forth the vision of one health, where humans and nature would live in harmony, and I have always worked towards this.

我提出了人类与自然和谐相处的“同一个健康”的愿景，我也一直在为此努力。

1:14:47 We hosted the G20 Summit with the motto, One Earth, One Family, One Future.

我们主办二十国集团峰会的座右铭是“一个地球、一个家庭、一个未来”。

We have inherited this timeless wisdom and it’s our duty to share it with the world.

我们继承了这种永恒的智慧，我们有责任与世界分享它。

To give you an example, I have advocated for embracing renewable energy.

举个例子，我主张采用可再生能源。

We founded the International Solar Alliance with the motto, One Sun, One World, One Grid.

我们成立了国际太阳能联盟，其座右铭是“一个太阳、一个世界、一个电网”。

Even when it comes to global healthcare, I had proposed One Earth, One Health.

即使谈到全球医疗保健，我也提出了一个地球，一个健康。

This initiative extends not only to humans, but also to all flora and fauna.

这项倡议不仅适用于人类，也适用于所有动植物。

I have always aimed to initiate efforts that foster global well-being, and the global community needs to join hands to accomplish that.

我始终致力于推动促进全球福祉的努力，国际社会需要携起手来实现这一目标。

1:15:40 We must also understand that the world has become one small village today.

我们还必须明白，今天的世界已成为一个小村庄。

No country can thrive in isolation.

没有一个国家能够孤立地繁荣发展。

Today we all depend upon one another.

今天，我们都互相依赖。

No one can make it far by themselves.

没有人能够靠自己走得更远。

That is why you must learn to synchronize with everyone and everyone else must learn to synchronize with you.

这就是为什么你必须学会​​与每个人同步，其他人也必须学会与你同步。

That’s the only way to propel this initiative forward.

这是推动这一举措向前发展的唯一途径。

Organizations like the United Nations came into being after the First World War, but they failed to evolve with the times, and this inability to adapt has sparked a global debate on their relevance.

像联合国这样的组织是在第一次世界大战后成立的，但它们未能与时俱进，这种无法适应的情况引发了全球对其相关性的争论。

You have spoken about, you have the experience, you have the skill, you have the geopolitical leverage to be the biggest peacemaker in the world today, on the world stage, and there’s several wars going on.

你说过，你有经验、有技能、有地缘政治影响力，可以成为当今世界上最大的和平缔造者，在世界舞台上，而且有几场战争正在进行。

1:16:23 Can you maybe explain how you approach the process of making peace, helping make peace between two warring nations, for example, Russia and Ukraine?

您能否解释一下您如何处理缔造和平的进程，帮助两个交战国家（例如俄罗斯和乌克兰）之间实现和平？

Well, I represent the country that is the land of Lord Buddha.

嗯，我代表佛陀的土地这个国家。

1:16:51 I represent the country that is the land of Mahatma Gandhi.

我代表的是圣雄甘地的祖国。

These are the great souls whose teachings, words, actions, and behavior are entirely dedicated to peace.

这些伟大的灵魂的教义、言语、行动和行为完全致力于和平。

And that is why culturally and historically our background is so strong that whenever we speak of peace, the world listens to us.

这就是为什么我们的文化和历史背景如此强大，以至于每当我们谈论和平时，世界都会倾听我们的声音。

Because India is the land of Gautam Buddha and Mahatma Gandhi and Indians aren’t hardwired to espouse strife and conflict.

因为印度是佛陀和圣雄甘地的土地，印度人并不是生来就支持冲突和冲突。

We espouse harmony instead.

相反，我们崇尚和谐。

We seek neither to wage war against nature, nor to foster strife among nations.

我们既不寻求对自然发动战争，也不寻求煽动国家之间的冲突。

We stand for peace and wherever we can act as peacemakers, we have gladly embraced that responsibility.

我们主张和平，只要我们能够充当和平缔造者，我们就乐意承担这一责任。

1:18:03 Returning to your example, I have a close relationship with Russia and Ukraine alike.

回到你的例子，我与俄罗斯和乌克兰都有着密切的关系。

I can sit with President Putin and say that this is not the time for war, and I can also tell President Zelensky in a friendly way that brother, regardless of how many people stand with you in the world, there will never be a resolution on the battlefield.

我可以和普京总统坐在一起说，现在不是战争的时候，我也可以友好地告诉泽连斯基总统，兄弟，无论世界上有多少人与你站在一起，战场上永远不会有解决办法。

The resolution will only come when both Ukraine and Russia come to the negotiating table.

只有当乌克兰和俄罗斯都坐到谈判桌前时，该决议才会出台。

Ukraine may hold countless discussions with their allies, but it will bear no fruit.

乌克兰可能会与盟友进行无数次讨论，但不会有结果。

Discussions must include both parties instead.

讨论必须包括双方。

Initially, it was challenging to find peace, but now the current situation presents an opportunity for meaningful and productive talks between Ukraine and Russia.

最初，寻求和平具有挑战性，但现在的局势为乌克兰和俄罗斯之间进行有意义和富有成果的谈判提供了机会。

There has been a lot of suffering.

经历了很多苦难。

Even the global south has suffered.

甚至南半球国家也受到了影响。

The world has been grappling with a food, fuel and fertilizer crisis.

世界一直在努力应对粮食、燃料和化肥危机。

So the global community should unite in the pursuit of peace.

因此，国际社会应该团结起来，追求和平。

As for me, I have always maintained that I stand with peace.

至于我，我一直坚持和平立场。

I am not neutral.

我不是中立的。

I have a stance and that is peace, and peace is what I strive for.

我有一个立场，那就是和平，和平是我所追求的。

Another difficult historic relationship and conflict is between India and Pakistan, it’s one of the most tense conflicts in the world, two nuclear powers with strong ideological differences.

另一种困难的历史关系和冲突是印度和巴基斯坦之间的关系，这是世界上最紧张的冲突之一，两个意识形态差异很大的核国家。

1:19:37 You are a great peacemaker.

你是一位伟大的和平缔造者。

Looking out into the future as a visionary, what do you see as the path for friendship, for peace, for good relations between India and Pakistan?

作为一个有远见的人，展望未来，您认为印度和巴基斯坦之间的友谊、和平、良好关系之路是什么？

I would like to delve into periods of our history the world may be unfamiliar with.

我想深入研究世界可能不熟悉的历史时期。

1:20:09 Before 1947, during the struggle for independence, everyone was fighting side-by-side, shoulder-to-shoulder, and the nation was eagerly waiting to celebrate the freedom, the joy of independence.

1947年之前，在争取独立的斗争中，大家并肩作战，全国人民都热切地等待着庆祝自由、独立的喜悦。

Now, we could have a lengthy discussion on what led to the events that unfolded, but the fact remains that the policymakers of the time agreed to India’s partition and they agreed to the Muslim side’s demand of carving out a separate nation.

现在，我们可以就事件发生的原因进行长时间的讨论，但事实仍然是，当时的政策制定者同意印度的分裂，他们同意穆斯林方面建立一个独立国家的要求。

With hearts weighed down by grief and silent tears, Indians embraced this painful reality.

印度人的心被悲伤和无声的泪水压垮，他们接受了这个痛苦的现实。

However, what unfolded was an immediate heartbreaking saga of bloodshed.

然而，接下来发生的却是一场令人心碎的流血传奇。

Trains filled with bloodied, wounded people and corpses started arriving from Pakistan.

满载血迹斑斑、受伤人员和尸体的火车开始从巴基斯坦抵达。

It was a harrowing sight.

这是一个令人痛苦的景象。

After getting their own way, we expected them to live and let live and yet, they chose not to foster a harmonious coexistence.

当我们走自己的路后，我们期望他们生活并让他们生活，但他们却选择不和谐共处。

Time and again, they decided to be at odds with India.

他们一次又一次地决定与印度发生争执。

They have waged a proxy war against us.

他们对我们发动了代理人战争。

1:21:57 Don’t mistake this for ideology.

不要误认为这是意识形态。

What kind of ideology thrives on bloodshed and the export of terror, and we are not the sole victims of this menace.

什么样的意识形态会在流血和恐怖输出中蓬勃发展，而我们并不是这种威胁的唯一受害者。

Wherever terror strikes in the world, the trail somehow leads to Pakistan.

无论世界上哪里发生恐怖袭击，线索都会以某种方式通向巴基斯坦。

Let’s take the September 11th attacks, for example.

让我们以 9 月 11 日的袭击为例。

The main mastermind behind it, Osama bin Laden, where did he eventually emerge from?

其幕后主使本拉登最终从何而来？

He had taken refuge in Pakistan.

他已在巴基斯坦避难。

The world has recognized that in a way terrorism and the terrorist mindset are deeply rooted in Pakistan.

世界已经认识到，在某种程度上，恐怖主义和恐怖主义心态在巴基斯坦根深蒂固。

Today, it stands as an epicenter of turmoil, not just for India but for the world.

如今，它不仅是印度的动乱中心，也是全世界的动乱中心。

And we have repeatedly asked them what good can come from this path?

我们也一再问他们，这条路能带来什么好处？

We have urged them to abandon the path of state-sponsored terrorism for good, “What do you hope to gain by surrendering your nation to lawless forces?” I even personally traveled to Lahore in the pursuit of peace.

我们敦促他们永远放弃国家支持的恐怖主义道路，“把你的国家交给不法势力，你希望得到什么？”为了追求和平，我什至亲自前往拉合尔。

1:23:11 When I became Prime Minister, I specially invited Pakistan to my swearing-in ceremony so we could turn over a new leaf.

当我成为总理时，我特意邀请巴基斯坦参加我的宣誓就职仪式，以便我们能够翻开新的一页。

Yet, every noble attempt at fostering peace was met with hostility and betrayal.

然而，每一次促进和平的崇高尝试都遭到了敌意和背叛。

We sincerely hope that wisdom prevails upon them and they choose the path of peace.

我们真诚地希望他们能够被智慧所左右，选择和平之路。

I believe even the people of Pakistan long for peace because even they must be weary of living in strife and unrest, they must have grown weary of relentless terror where even innocent children are killed and countless lives are destroyed.

我相信，即使是巴基斯坦人民也渴望和平，因为即使他们一定厌倦了生活在冲突和动乱中，他们一定也厌倦了无情的恐怖，在这种恐怖中，甚至无辜的儿童都被杀害，无数的生命被摧毁。

Is there some memorable stories from your past attempts to try to improve relations with Pakistan that could guide the path forward into the future?

在您过去尝试改善与巴基斯坦关系的过程中，是否有一些令人难忘的故事可以指导未来的前进道路？

Like I mentioned, my first attempt at improving bilateral relations was when I invited my Pakistani counterpart to my swearing-in.

正如我提到的，我第一次尝试改善双边关系是在我邀请巴基斯坦外长参加我的宣誓就职时。

1:24:09 It was a gesture of goodwill.

这是一种善意的姿态。

It was a diplomatic gesture unlike any in decades.

这是几十年来从未有过的外交姿态。

The very people who once questioned my approach to foreign policy were taken aback when they learned I had invited all SAARC heads of state and our then president, Mr. Pranab Mukherjee beautifully captured that historic gesture in his memoir.

当那些曾经质疑我的外交政策方针的人得知我邀请了所有南盟国家元首和我们当时的总统普拉纳布·慕克吉先生在他的回忆录中完美地捕捉到了这一历史性姿态时，他们大吃一惊。

This was a testament to how clear and confident India’s foreign policy had become.

这证明了印度的外交政策变得多么明确和自信。

This sent a clear message to the world about India’s commitment to peace and harmony, but we didn’t get the desired outcome.

这向世界发出了印度致力于和平与和谐的明确信息，但我们没有得到预期的结果。

Maybe to ask a little bit of a lighter question, who has the better cricket team, India or Pakistan?

也许问一个更轻松的问题，印度和巴基斯坦谁的板球队更好？

1:25:16 The two teams have an epic rivalry on the pitch and more seriously, given the geopolitical tensions that you spoke to, what role do sports and cricket and football play in fostering better relations?

两支球队在球场上展开了史诗般的竞争，更严重的是，考虑到您谈到的地缘政治紧张局势，体育、板球和足球在促进更好的关系方面发挥什么作用？

I think sports have the power to energize the entire world.

我认为体育有能力为整个世界注入活力。

1:25:45 The spirit of sports brings people together across different nations.

体育精神将不同国家的人们聚集在一起。

That’s why I would never want to see sports being discredited.

这就是为什么我永远不想看到体育运动被抹黑。

I truly believe that sports play a major role in human evolution.

我坚信体育在人类进化中发挥着重要作用。

They’re not just games, they connect people on a deeper level.

它们不仅仅是游戏，它们在更深层次上将人们联系起来。

Now, coming to the question of who’s better and who’s not, when it comes to techniques in sports, I’m not an expert.

现在，说到谁更好、谁​​不好的问题，当谈到运动技术时，我不是专家。

Only those who specialize in the technical aspects can judge which techniques are superior and who the best players really are.

只有那些精通技术的人才能判断哪些技术更出色，谁才是真正最好的球员。

But sometimes the results speak for themselves.

但有时结果不言而喻。

Just a few days ago, India and Pakistan played a match.

就在几天前，印度和巴基斯坦进行了一场比赛。

The result reveals, which is the better team.

结果显示，哪支球队更好。

That’s how we know.

我们就是这样知道的。

Yeah.

是的。

1:26:51 I’ve watched this series called The Greatest Rivalry, India versus Pakistan, that describes so many incredible players, so many incredible games.

我看过这个名为“最伟大的竞争”的系列节目，印度对巴基斯坦，它描述了许多令人难以置信的球员，许多令人难以置信的比赛。

It’s always beautiful to see a great rivalry.

看到激烈的竞争总是很美好的。

You’ve also spoken about football.

您还谈到了足球。

Football is very popular in India.

足球在印度很受欢迎。

So another tough question, who is the greatest football player of all time?

那么另一个棘手的问题是，谁是有史以来最伟大的足球运动员？

We’ve got Messi, Pele, Maradona, Cristiano Ronaldo, Zidane, who do you think is the greatest football player to have ever played?

我们有梅西、贝利、马拉多纳、克里斯蒂亚诺·罗纳尔多、齐达内，你认为谁是有史以来最伟大的足球运动员？

It’s absolutely true that many regions in India have a strong football culture.

确实，印度许多地区都有浓厚的足球文化。

1:27:22 Our women’s football team is performing really well and the men’s team is also making great progress.

我们的女足表现非常出色，男足也取得了长足的进步。

But if we talk about the past, back in the 1980s, one name that always stood out was Maradona.

但如果我们谈论过去，早在 20 世纪 80 年代，一个总是引人注目的名字就是马拉多纳。

For that generation, he was seen as a true hero, and if you ask today’s generation, they’ll immediately mention Messi.

对于那一代人来说，他被视为真正的英雄，如果你问今天的一代人，他们会立即提到梅西。

1:27:55 Now that you’ve asked, another interesting memory just came to mind.

既然你问了，我的脑海中又浮现出另一个有趣的记忆。

There’s a state in India called Madhya Pradesh, right in the center.

印度有一个邦叫中央邦，位于正中心。

There’s a district called Shahdol, a completely tribal region where a large tribal community resides.

有一个叫做沙赫多（Shahdol）的地区，这是一个完全部落的地区，居住着一个大型部落社区。

I really enjoy interacting with people from such communities, especially the self-help groups run by tribal women.

我真的很喜欢与来自这些社区的人们互动，尤其是由部落妇女经营的自助团体。

So I decided to visit them and have a conversation.

所以我决定去拜访他们并交谈。

But when I got there, I noticed something fascinating.

但当我到达那里时，我注意到一些有趣的事情。

Around 80 to 100 young boys, kids and even some older youth all dressed in sports uniforms standing together.

大约80到100名男孩、孩子甚至一些年长的青少年都穿着运动服站在一起。

Naturally, I walked over to them.

我自然而然地向他们走过去。

So I asked them, “Where are you all from?” And they replied, “We’re from mini Brazil.” I was surprised and said, “What do you mean by mini Brazil?” They said, “That’s what people call our village.” Curious, I asked, “Why do they call it mini Brazil?” They explained, “In our village, football has been played for four generations.

于是我问他们：“你们都是哪里人？”他们回答说：“我们来自迷你巴西。”我很惊讶地说：“你说的迷你巴西是什么意思？”他们说：“这就是人们对我们村子的称呼。”我很好奇，“为什么他们称它为小巴西？”他们解释说：“在我们村，足球已经传了四代了。

Nearly 80 national level players have come from here.

近80名国家级球员都出自这里。

Our entire village is dedicated to football.” They also told me when we host our annual football match, nearly 20,000 to 25,000 spectators come from nearby villages to watch.

我们整个村庄都致力于足球。”他们还告诉我，当我们举办一年一度的足球比赛时，有近20,000到25,000名观众从附近的村庄赶来观看。

1:29:20 I see the growing craze for football in India these days as a positive sign because it not only fuels passion, but also builds true team spirit.

我认为最近印度对足球日益增长的热潮是一个积极的信号，因为它不仅可以激发激情，还可以培养真正的团队精神。

Yeah, football is one of the great sports that unites not just India, the whole world, and that just shows the power of what sport can do.

是的，足球是伟大的运动之一，它不仅团结了印度，还团结了全世界，这恰恰显示了体育的力量。

1:29:32 You recently visited the United States and reinvigorated your friendship with Donald Trump.

您最近访问了美国并重振了与唐纳德·特朗普的友谊。

What do you like about Donald Trump as a friend, as a leader?

作为朋友和领导人，你喜欢唐纳德·特朗普的哪些方面？

I’d like to share with you an event that stands out in my memory.

我想与大家分享一件在我记忆中印象深刻的事件。

1:29:55 Perhaps from that, you’ll get a better understanding of the point I’m trying to convey.

也许从中，你会更好地理解我想要表达的观点。

For example, we had an event in Houston, Howdy Modi.

例如，我们在休斯敦举办了一场活动，Howdy Modi。

Both President Trump and I were there and the entire stadium was completely packed.

特朗普总统和我都在那里，整个体育场都挤满了人。

A massive crowd at an event in the US is a huge moment.

在美国举办的一场活动中，人群聚集是一个重要的时刻。

While packed stadiums are common in sports, this was extraordinary for a political rally.

虽然体育场内挤满人的情况在体育运动中很常见，但这对于政治集会来说却是不同寻常的。

The Indian diaspora had gathered in large numbers.

印度侨民大量聚集。

Both of us delivered speeches and he sat down below listening to me speak.

我们俩都发表了讲话，他坐在下面听我讲话。

Now, that’s his humility.

现在，这就是他的谦虚。

The President of the United States sitting in the audience while I spoke from the stage, that was a remarkable gesture on his part.

当我在台上讲话时，美国总统坐在观众席上，这是他的一个了不起的举动。

After finishing my speech, I stepped down and as we all know, security in the US is extremely strict and thorough.

演讲结束后我就下台了，众所周知，美国的安全是极其严格和彻底的。

The level of scrutiny there is on a completely different level.

那里的审查水平完全不同。

I went over to thank him and casually said, “If you don’t mind, why don’t we take a lap around the stadium?

我走过去向他道谢，随口说道：“如果你不介意的话，我们绕体育场转一圈吧？

There are so many people here.

这里有很多人。

Let’s walk, wave and greet them.”

让我们一起散步，向他们挥手致意。”

1:31:16 In American life, it’s almost impossible for the President to walk into a crowd of thousands, but without even a moment’s hesitation, he agreed and started walking with me.

在美国生活中，总统几乎不可能走进数千人的人群中，但他毫不犹豫地同意了，并开始与我同行。

His entire security detail was thrown off guard, but for me that moment was truly touching.

他的整个安保人员都措手不及，但对我来说，那一刻确实令人感动。

It showed me that this man had courage.

这让我知道这个人有勇气。

He makes his own decisions, but also he trusted me and my lead in that moment enough to have walked with me into the crowd.

他自己做出决定，但他也相信我和我在那一刻的领导，足以和我一起走进人群。

It was that sense of mutual trust, a strong bond between us that I truly witnessed on that day and the way I saw President Trump that day walking into a crowd of thousands without even asking security, it was truly amazing.

那天我真正亲眼目睹了这种相互信任的感觉，我们之间的牢固纽带，以及那天我看到特朗普总统走进数千人的人群，甚至没有问安全的情况，这确实令人惊叹。

And if you watch the video now, you’ll be amazed.

如果你现在观看视频，你会感到惊讶。

1:32:15 When he was shot during the recent campaign, I saw the same resilient and determined President Trump, the one who walked hand-in-hand with me in that stadium.

当他在最近的竞选活动中被枪杀时，我看到了同样坚韧而坚定的特朗普总统，他与我在体育场里手拉着手。

Even after being shot, he remained unwaveringly dedicated to America.

即使在被枪杀后，他仍然坚定不移地致力于美国。

His life was for his nation.

他的生命是为了他的国家。

His reflection showed his America First spirit, just as I believe in nation first.

他的反思展现了他的美国优先精神，就像我相信国家优先一样。

I stand for India first and that’s why we connect so well.

我首先代表印度，这就是我们联系如此紧密的原因。

These are the things that truly resonate.

这些才是真正能引起共鸣的事情。

And I believe that across the world politicians are covered so much by the media that people mostly perceive each other through its lens.

我相信世界各地的政客都受到媒体的广泛报道，以至于人们大多通过媒体的镜头来看待彼此。

People rarely get the chance to truly meet or personally know one another and perhaps third-party intervention is the real cause of tensions.

人们很少有机会真正见面或亲自认识彼此，也许第三方的干预才是造成紧张局势的真正原因。

1:33:20 When I visited him in the White House for the first time, there was already a lot written about President Trump in the media.

当我第一次去白宫拜访他时，媒体上已经有很多关于特朗普总统的报道。

At that time, he was still new to office and the world had a rather different perception of him.

当时，他刚刚上任，世人对他的看法也截然不同。

Even I had been briefed in many different ways before meeting him, but to my surprise, the very moment I stepped into the White House, he broke all formal protocols right away.

即使我在见到他之前已经通过多种方式得到了简报，但令我惊讶的是，就在我踏入白宫的那一刻，他立即打破了所有正式的礼仪。

And then, he personally took me on a tour of the White House.

然后，他亲自带我参观了白宫。

As he showed me around, I noticed something striking, he wasn’t holding any notes or cue cards, nor was anyone accompanying him to assist.

当他带我四处参观时，我注意到一些引人注目的事情，他没有拿着任何笔记或提示卡，也没有任何人陪同他提供帮助。

He pointed things out himself.

他亲自指出了事情。

“This is where Abraham Lincoln lived,” he said.

“这是亚伯拉罕·林肯居住的地方，”他说。

He even explained why the courtroom was designed so long.

他甚至解释了为什么法庭设计得这么长。

He would point at the table and tell me which President signed here and on what date.

他会指着桌子告诉我哪位总统在这里签名以及签署日期。

I found that incredibly impressive.

我发现这令人难以置信。

It showed how much he honored the Presidency and how respectful and deeply connected he was to America’s history.

这表明他对总统职位有多么的尊重，以及他对美国历史的尊重和深厚的联系。

I could feel that.

我能感觉到。

And he spoke to me freely, discussing many things openly.

他和我畅所欲言，公开讨论了很多事情。

That was my experience from our first meeting.

这是我们第一次见面时我的经历。

1:34:39 Later, when his first term ended, and President Biden won, four years passed, but during that time whenever someone we both knew met him, and this must have happened dozens of times, he would say, “Modi is my friend, convey my regards.” That kind of gesture is rare.

后来他的第一个任期结束，拜登总统获胜，四年过去了，但那段时间，每当我们认识的人见到他时，这种情况肯定发生了几十次，他都会说：“莫迪是我的朋友，代我问候。”这种姿态很少见。

Even though we didn’t meet physically for years, our direct and indirect communication, our closeness and the trust between us remained unshaken.

尽管我们多年没有见面，但我们直接和间接的沟通、我们之间的亲密和信任始终没有动摇。

He said that you’re a much tougher, much better negotiator than he is.

他说你是一个比他更强硬、更好的谈判者。

1:35:22 He said this recently when you visited.

最近你来访时他这么说。

What do you think of him as a negotiator and what do you think he meant about you being a great negotiator?

您认为他作为一名谈判者怎么样？您认为他对您作为一名出色的谈判者有何看法？

Now, that’s not something I can comment on.

现在，这不是我可以评论的事情。

1:35:39 Since it’s his graciousness and humility, it is very kind of him that he openly appreciates me on various occasions and in different contexts.

由于他的仁慈和谦逊，他在不同的场合和不同的背景下公开地欣赏我，这真是太好了。

But about negotiation, I always put my country’s interests first.

但在谈判方面，我始终把祖国的利益放在第一位。

That’s why in every forum, I speak up for India’s interest, not to harm anyone but in a positive manner and because of that, no one takes offense.

这就是为什么在每个论坛上，我都会为印度的利益发声，不是为了伤害任何人，而是以积极的方式，正因为如此，没有人会生气。

People know that if Modi is present, he will strongly advocate for these things.

人们知道，如果莫迪在场，他会大力提倡这些事情。

After all, the people of India have given me this responsibility.

毕竟，印度人民赋予了我这个责任。

For me, my nation is my high command and I will always honor their will.

对我来说，我的国家就是我的最高统帅部，我将永远尊重他们的意愿。

You’ve also had a bunch of productive meetings with several other folks on your visit to the United States, Elon Musk, JD Vance, Tulsi Gabbard, Vivek Ramaswamy.

在访问美国期间，您还与埃隆·马斯克、JD·万斯、图尔西·加巴德、维韦克·拉马斯瓦米等其他几位人士进行了一系列富有成效的会议。

1:36:30 What are some things that stood out from those meetings?

这些会议中有哪些突出的事情？

Maybe key takeaways, key memories.

也许是关键的收获，关键的记忆。

Look, I can say this, I have observed President Trump both during his first term and now in his second run.

听着，我可以这么说，我观察了特朗普总统在他的第一任期和现在的第二任期。

1:36:47 This time, he seems far more prepared than before.

这一次，他似乎比之前准备得更加充分。

He has a clear roadmap in his mind with well-defined steps, each one designed to lead him toward his goals.

他心中有一个清晰的路线图，有明确的步骤，每一个步骤都旨在引导他实现自己的目标。

I also had the chance to meet members of his team, and I truly believe he has put together a strong, capable group and with such a strong team, I feel they are fully capable of implementing President Trump’s vision based on my interactions with them.

我也有机会见到了他的团队成员，我真的相信他组建了一个强大、有能力的团队，有了这样一个强大的团队，根据我与他们的互动，我觉得他们完全有能力实现特朗普总统的愿景。

I met several people, Tulsi Gabbard, Vivek Ramaswamy, Elon Musk, and there was a family-like atmosphere, everyone had come with their families.

我遇到了几个人，Tulsi Gabbard、Vivek Ramaswamy、Elon Musk，那里有一种家庭般的气氛，每个人都带着家人来。

As for Elon Musk, I have known him since my time as chief minister.

至于埃隆·马斯克，我从担任首席部长以来就认识他了。

He was there with his family and children, so naturally the atmosphere felt warm and friendly.

他带着家人和孩子在那里，所以气氛自然而然地感到温暖和友好。

Of course, we had discussions and we talked about many different topics.

当然，我们进行了讨论，讨论了许多不同的话题。

Now, with his DOGE mission, he is incredibly excited about how it’s progressing and honestly, it makes me happy too because when I took office in 2014, I wanted to free my country from the deep-rooted issues and harmful practices that have crept in, and I’ll continue striving to eliminate as many of them as I possibly can.

现在，他对 DOGE 使命的进展感到非常兴奋，说实话，这也让我很高兴，因为当我 2014 年上任时，我希望将我的国家从已经悄然出现的根深蒂固的问题和有害做法中解放出来，我将继续努力消除尽可能多的问题。

For example, after I took office in 2014, I observed that back then we weren’t part of many global discussions, not like how President Trump and DOGE are being talked about today.

例如，2014年我上任后，我发现当时我们并没有参与很多全球讨论，不像今天谈论特朗普总统和DOGE。

But let me give you an example so you can see the kind of work that was done.

但让我举一个例子，以便您了解所做的工作。

I noticed that the benefits of certain government schemes, especially welfare programs, were being exploited by so many people who never even existed in real life…

我注意到某些政府计划的好处，特别是福利计划，正在被许多现实生活中从未存在过的人利用……

1:39:01 …

……

who never even existed in real life.

谁在现实生活中从未存在过。

There were ghost names, pensions being issued to fake people.

有鬼名字，养老金发给假人。

Widow pensions were being granted even before marriages took place, and disability pensions were given without any real disabilities.

寡妇抚恤金甚至在结婚之前就发放，残疾抚恤金是在没有任何真正残疾的情况下发放的。

Then I launched a scrutiny process, and you’ll be shocked to know what we found.

然后我启动了一个审查过程，你会惊讶地发现我们发现了什么。

A hundred million people, a hundred million people, that’s a hundred million fake or duplicate names that I removed from the system.

一亿人，一亿人，这是我从系统中删除的一亿假名或重复名字。

And because of that, we saved massive amount of money.

正因为如此，我们节省了大量资金。

1:39:40 Then I introduced direct benefit transfer, ensuring that every rupee sent from Delhi reached the rightful person without leakage.

然后我引入了直接利益转移，确保从德里寄出的每一卢比都到达了正确的人手中，没有泄漏。

As a result, my country saved nearly 3 trillion rupees that would have otherwise ended up in the wrong hands.

结果，我国节省了近 3 万亿卢比，否则这些资金可能会落入坏人之手。

Just because of direct benefit transfer through technology, we eliminated middlemen, ensuring transparency in the system.

正是因为技术的直接利益转移，我们消除了中间商，保证了系统的透明度。

1:40:03 I also introduced the GeM portal for government purchases, which has helped save both time and money.

我还介绍了政府采购的 GeM 门户，这有助于节省时间和金钱。

It has increased competition and improved quality.

它增加了竞争并提高了质量。

In India, we had an overwhelming burden of compliances.

在印度，我们面临着巨大的合规负担。

I eliminated 40,000 unnecessary compliances, and removed nearly 1500 outdated laws that served no purpose.

我消除了 40,000 条不必要的合规性，并删除了近 1500 条毫无用处的过时法律。

1:40:29 So in a way, my efforts have been about freeing governance from unnecessary dominance and inefficiency.

因此，在某种程度上，我的努力是为了将治理从不必要的统治和低效率中解放出来。

And naturally, when bold changes happen, just like DOGE’s mission, they become a topic of discussion worldwide.

当然，当大胆的改变发生时，就像 DOGE 的使命一样，它们会成为全世界讨论的话题。

You and Xi Jinping have considered each other friends.

您和习近平一直互为朋友。

1:40:52 How can that friendship be reinvigorated to help de-escalate some of the recent tensions, and resume dialogue and cooperation with China?

如何重振这种友谊，以帮助缓和最近的一些紧张局势，并恢复与中国的对话与合作？

Look, the relationship between India and China isn’t something new.

看来，印度和中国之间的关系并不是什么新鲜事。

1:41:06 Both nations have ancient cultures and civilizations.

两国都有古老的文化和文明。

Even in the modern world, they play a significant role.

即使在现代世界，它们也发挥着重要作用。

If you look at historical records, for centuries, India and China have learned from each other.

如果你看一下历史记录，几个世纪以来，印度和中国一直在互相学习。

Together, they have always contributed to the global good in some way.

他们始终以某种方式共同为全球利益做出贡献。

Old records suggest that at one point India and China alone accounted for more than 50% of the world’s GDP.

旧记录显示，印度和中国曾一度占世界 GDP 的 50% 以上。

That’s how massive India’s contribution was.

印度的贡献有多大。

And I believe our ties have been extremely strong, with deep cultural connections.

我相信我们的关系非常牢固，具有深厚的文化联系。

If we look back centuries, there’s no real history of conflict between us.

如果我们回顾几个世纪，我们之间并没有真正的冲突历史。

It has always been about learning from each other and understanding one another.

一直以来，我们都在互相学习、互相理解。

At one time, Buddhism had a profound influence in China, and that philosophy originally came from here.

佛教曾一度在中国产生了深远的影响，而佛教的哲学也正是源于这里。

1:42:40 Our relationship should remain just as strong in the future.

我们的关系未来应该保持同样牢固。

It should continue to grow.

它应该继续增长。

Of course, differences are natural.

当然，差异是自然的。

When two neighboring countries exist, occasional disagreements are bound to happen.

当两个邻国存在时，难免偶尔会发生一些分歧。

Even within a family, not everything is always perfect.

即使在一个家庭中，也并非一切都是完美的。

But our focus is to ensure that these differences don’t turn into disputes.

但我们的重点是确保这些分歧不会演变成争端。

That’s what we actively work toward.

这就是我们积极努力的目标。

Instead of discord, we emphasize dialogue, because only through dialogue can we build a stable cooperative relationship that serves the best interests of both nations.

我们强调对话而不是不和，因为只有通过对话才能建立符合两国最佳利益的稳定合作关系。

1:43:35 It is true that there have been ongoing border disputes between us.

确实，我们之间一直存在边界争端。

And in 2020, the incidents along the border created significant tensions between our countries.

2020年，边境发生的事件造成了我们两国之间的严重紧张。

However, after my recent meeting with President Xi, we have seen a return to normalcy at the border.

然而，在我最近与习主席会面后，我们看到边境恢复正常。

We are now working to restore conditions to how they were before 2020.

我们现在正在努力将情况恢复到 2020 年之前的状态。

Slowly but surely, trust, enthusiasm, and energy will return.

信任、热情和活力将会慢慢地但肯定地回归。

But of course, it will take some time, since there’s been a five-year gap.

但当然，这需要一些时间，因为有五年的差距。

Our cooperation isn’t just beneficial, it’s also essential for global stability and prosperity.

我们的合作不仅有益，而且对全球稳定与繁荣也至关重要。

And since the 21st century is Asia’s century, we want India and China to compete in a healthy and natural way.

由于21世纪是亚洲的世纪，我们希望印度和中国以健康、自然的方式竞争。

Competition is not a bad thing, but it should never turn into conflict.

竞争并不是坏事，但决不应该演变成冲突。

The world is worried about a brewing global war.

世界担心一场正在酝酿的全球战争。

1:44:35 The tensions between China and the United States, in Ukraine, Russia and Europe, in Israel, the Middle East.

中国和美国、乌克兰、俄罗斯和欧洲、以色列和中东之间的紧张局势。

What can you say about how we in the 21st century can avoid a global war, avoid an escalation towards more conflict, more war?

对于 21 世纪的我们如何避免全球战争、避免冲突升级、更多战争，您有何看法？

Look, COVID exposed the limitations of every nation.

看，新冠疫情暴露了每个国家的局限性。

1:45:07 No matter how much we consider ourselves as a great nation, no matter how progressive we think we are, or how scientifically advanced we believe we’ve become, everyone has their own way of looking at things.

无论我们多么认为自己是一个伟大的国家，无论我们认为自己多么进步，或者我们认为自己在科学上已经变得多么先进，每个人都有自己看待事物的方式。

In the end, we all found ourselves on the same ground.

最后，我们都发现自己处于同一立场。

Every country in the world faced this reality.

世界上每个国家都面临着这一现实。

At that time, it felt like the world would learn from it, that we would move toward a more unified world.

当时，感觉世界会从中吸取教训，我们将走向一个更加统一的世界。

Just as a geopolitical order emerged after World War II, many thought something similar would happen post-COVID.

正如二战后出现的地缘政治秩序一样，许多人认为新冠疫情后也会发生类似的情况。

But unfortunately, instead of moving towards peace, the world became even more fragmented, ushering in a period of uncertainty, and the wars have only made it worse.

但不幸的是，世界非但没有走向和平，反而变得更加分裂，迎来了一个不确定的时期，而战争只会让情况变得更糟。

1:46:16 I believe that modern wars are no longer just about resources or interests.

我相信，现代战争不再只是资源或利益的战争。

Today I see so many kinds of conflicts happening.

今天我看到很多类型的冲突正在发生。

Physical battles often get discussed.

身体上的战斗经常被讨论。

Struggles are happening in every domain.

每个领域都在发生斗争。

International organizations that were once powerful have become almost irrelevant.

曾经强大的国际组织几乎变得无关紧要。

No real reforms are happening.

没有真正的改革发生。

Institutions, like the UN, are failing to fulfill their roles.

像联合国这样的机构未能履行其职责。

People, who disregard international laws and rules, continue to act freely, and no one can stop them.

人们无视国际法和规则，继续自由行动，无人能阻止。

In such situations, the prudent choice for everyone is to let go of conflict and move toward cooperation.

在这种情况下，放下冲突、走向合作，是每个人的审慎选择。

And a development-driven approach is the way forward.

发展驱动的方法是前进的方向。

Expansionism will not work.

扩张主义是行不通的。

As I’ve said before, the world is interdependent and interconnected.

正如我之前所说，世界是相互依存、相互联系的。

Every nation needs one another, no one can stand alone.

每个国家都需要彼此，没有一个国家可以孤立无援。

And from all the different forums I attend, one thing is clear: Everyone is deeply worried about these conflicts.

从我参加的所有不同论坛来看，有一件事很明确：每个人都对这些冲突深感担忧。

We can only hope that peace is restored very soon.

我们只能希望和平尽快恢复。

I’m not very good at this.

我不太擅长这个。

You keep looking at your watch.

你一直看着你的手表。

No, no, no.

不，不，不。

1:48:02 I barely know what I’m doing, Prime Minister.

我几乎不知道自己在做什么，总理。

I’m not very good at this.

我不太擅长这个。

Okay.

好的。

You’ve been…

你已经……

through your career and through your life, you have seen a lot of difficult situations in the history of India.

在你的职业生涯和生活中，你看到了印度历史上的许多困难局面。

One of them, the 2002 Gujarat riots, they’re one of the most challenging periods of modern Indian history, when there was violence between Hindu and Muslim citizens of the Gujarat that led to over 1000 deaths.

其中之一是 2002 年的古吉拉特邦骚乱，这是印度现代历史上最具挑战性的时期之一，当时古吉拉特邦的印度教和穆斯林公民之间发生暴力冲突，导致 1000 多人死亡。

It revealed the intensity of religious tensions in the region.

它揭示了该地区宗教紧张局势的严重程度。

You were, as you mentioned, chief minister of Gujarat at the time.

正如你提到的，你当时是古吉拉特邦的首席部长。

Looking back, what lessons do you draw from that time?

回想起来，您从那次事件中吸取了哪些教训？

And we should also say that India’s independent Supreme Court upheld twice, in ’12 and ’22, that you had no involvement in the violence of the 2002 Gujarat riots.

我们还应该说，印度独立最高法院在12年和22年两次维持你们没有参与2002年古吉拉特邦骚乱的暴力行为。

But I was wondering if you could speak to the broad lessons you draw from that time?

但我想知道您能否谈谈您从那次事件中吸取的广泛教训？

Look, regarding your first point, when you humbly said that you don’t know what you’re doing, that you’re not good at this, I disagree and personally feel you’ve put in tremendous care.

你看，关于你的第一点，当你谦虚地说你不知道自己在做什么，你不擅长这个时，我不同意，并且个人觉得你付出了极大的关心。

1:49:07 You’ve done extensive research and have dived deeply into every small detail.

您进行了广泛的研究，并深入研究了每一个小细节。

So I think you’ve done very well, and all the efforts you’ve put in during our conversation and in all your conversations are appreciated.

所以我认为你做得非常好，你在我们谈话期间以及所有谈话中所付出的所有努力都受到赞赏。

And rather than simply interviewing me, I feel you’re trying to deeply understand India.

我觉得你不是在简单地采访我，而是试图深入了解印度。

That’s why I strongly feel there’s genuine honesty in your sincere effort to uncover the truth.

这就是为什么我强烈地感觉到你为揭露真相所做的真诚努力是真诚的。

And for that sincere approach, I genuinely congratulate you.

对于这种真诚的态度，我真诚地祝贺你。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Regarding the earlier events that you mentioned, like the 2002 riots in Gujarat, I’d like to paint you a clearer picture of the 12 to 15 months leading up to that, so you can fully understand the atmosphere of that time.

关于你提到的早期事件，比如2002年古吉拉特邦的骚乱，我想给你描绘一个更清晰的画面，让你更清楚地了解事件发生前的12到15个月，以便你充分了解当时的气氛。

1:50:06 For instance, take December 24, 1999, roughly three years earlier, an Indian flight from Kathmandu to Delhi was hijacked, redirected to Afghanistan and landed in Kandahar.

例如，大约三年前的 1999 年 12 月 24 日，一架从加德满都飞往德里的印度航班被劫持，改道飞往阿富汗并降落在坎大哈。

Hundreds of Indian passengers were held hostage.

数百名印度乘客被扣为人质。

It caused massive turmoil across India as people faced life and death uncertainty.

由于人们面临生死不确定性，它在印度各地引起了巨大的骚乱。

1:51:02 Then, in the year 2000, the Red Fort in Delhi was attacked by terrorists.

2000年，德里红堡遭到恐怖分子袭击。

Yet another crisis struck the nation, intensifying fear and turmoil.

另一场危机席卷全国，加剧了恐惧和动荡。

On September 11th, 2001, the Twin Towers in America faced a devastating terror attack, once again shocking the entire world.

2001年9月11日，美国双子塔遭遇毁灭性恐怖袭击，再次震惊世界。

Because ultimately, the people behind these attacks are driven by a similar mindset.

因为归根结底，这些攻击背后的人都是受类似心态驱动的。

Then in October 2001, terrorists attacked the Jammu and Kashmir Assembly.

2001年10月，恐怖分子袭击了查谟和克什米尔议会。

Soon after, on December 13th, 2001, India’s parliament was targeted.

不久之后，2001 年 12 月 13 日，印度议会成为袭击目标。

1:51:41 Within just eight to 10 months, these major global terrorist attacks took place, violent incidents that led to bloodshed and the loss of innocent lives.

短短8至10个月内，全球发生了这些重大恐怖袭击事件，暴力事件导致流血事件、无辜者丧生。

In such a tense environment, even the smallest spark can ignite unrest.

在如此紧张的环境下，即使是最小的火花也可能引发骚乱。

The situation had already become extremely volatile.

局势已经变得极其动荡。

In such times, suddenly, on October 7th, 2001, I was given the responsibility of becoming chief minister of Gujarat.

就在这样的时刻，突然间，2001 年 10 月 7 日，我被赋予了成为古吉拉特邦首席部长的责任。

This was an enormous challenge.

这是一个巨大的挑战。

1:52:21 At that time, Gujarat was recovering from a devastating earthquake, the largest of the previous century, which had left thousands dead.

当时，古吉拉特邦正在从一场上世纪最大的毁灭性地震中恢复过来，这场地震造成数千人死亡。

My first major task as chief minister was overseeing the rehabilitation of survivors.

作为首席部长，我的首要任务是监督幸存者的康复。

This was a crucial task, and from day one after my oath, I immersed myself in it.

这是一项至关重要的任务，从宣誓后的第一天起，我就全身心投入其中。

I was a person who had absolutely no prior experience with government.

我是一个完全没有与政府打交道的经验的人。

I had never been part of any administration, never even served in government before.

我从未参与过任何政府，甚至从未在政府任职。

I had never contested an election, never even been a state representative.

我从未参加过选举，甚至从未担任过州代表。

For the first time in my life, I had to face elections.

我有生以来第一次必须面对选举。

1:53:04 On February 24, 2002, I became a state representative, an elected representative for the first time.

2002年2月24日，我成为州代表，第一次当选代表。

And it was only around February 24th, 25th, or 26th that I stepped into the Gujarat Assembly for the very first time.

直到2月24日、25日或26日左右，我才第一次走进古吉拉特邦议会。

On February 27th, 2002, we were seated in the Assembly for the budget session.

2002 年 2 月 27 日，我们出席了预算会议。

And that same day, it had been just three days since I’d become a state representative, when suddenly the horrific Godhra incident occurred.

就在同一天，距离我成为州代表才三天，可怕的戈德拉事件突然发生了。

It was a tragedy of unimaginable magnitude, people were burned alive.

这是一场规模难以想象的悲剧，人们被活活烧死。

You can imagine, against the backdrop of incidents like the Kandahar hijacking, the attack on parliament, or even 9/11, and then to have so many people killed and burned alive, you can imagine how tense and volatile the situation was.

可以想象，在坎大哈劫持、议会遇袭、甚至9/11等事件的背景下，那么多人被杀、被活活烧死，可想而知当时的局势是多么紧张和动荡。

Of course, this was tragic for everyone.

当然，这对每个人来说都是悲剧。

Everyone prefers peace.

每个人都喜欢和平。

1:54:27 The perception that these were the biggest riots ever is actually misinformation.

认为这是有史以来最大规模骚乱的看法实际上是错误信息。

If you review the data from before 2002, you will see that Gujarat faced frequent riots.

如果回顾2002年之前的数据，你会发现古吉拉特邦经常发生骚乱。

Curfews were constantly being imposed somewhere.

某些地方不断实行宵禁。

Communal violence could erupt over trivial issues, like kite flying contests or even minor bicycle collisions.

社区暴力可能会因为一些琐碎的问题而爆发，比如放风筝比赛，甚至轻微的自行车碰撞。

Before 2002, Gujarat witnessed over 250 significant riots.

2002年之前，古吉拉特邦发生了250多起严重骚乱。

The riots in 1969 lasted nearly six months.

1969年的骚乱持续了近六个月。

So there was a long history, long before I was in the picture.

所以，早在我出现之前，就有很长的历史了。

1:55:15 But that one tragic incident in 2002 became a sparking point, leading some people towards violence.

但2002年发生的一起悲惨事件成为导火索，导致一些人走向暴力。

Yet, the judiciary thoroughly investigated the matter.

然而，司法部门对此事进行了彻底调查。

At that time, our political opponents were in power, and naturally they wanted all allegations against us to stick.

当时，我们的政治对手掌权，他们自然希望所有针对我们的指控都成立。

Despite their relentless efforts, the judiciary analyzed the situation meticulously twice and ultimately found us completely innocent.

尽管做出了不懈的努力，司法部门还是经过两次细致的分析，最终认定我们是无罪的。

Those who were truly responsible have faced justice from the courts.

那些真正负有责任的人已经受到了法庭的审判。

1:55:55 But the most important thing is, in Gujarat, where riots used to happen some way or the other every year, but after 2002, in 22 years, there hasn’t been a single major riot in Gujarat.

但最重要的是，在古吉拉特邦，以前每年都会发生这样或那样的骚乱，但2002年之后，22年来，古吉拉特邦没有发生过一次重大骚乱。

Gujarat remains completely peaceful.

古吉拉特邦仍然完全和平。

Our approach has always been to avoid World Bank politics.

我们的做法始终是避免世界银行政治。

Instead, our mantra has been, together with everyone, development for all, trust from all, and efforts by everyone.

相反，我们的口号是与大家一起，共同发展，共同信任，共同努力。

We’ve shifted away from the politics of appeasement to the politics of aspiration.

我们已经从绥靖政治转向了渴望政治。

Because of this, anyone who wishes to contribute joins us willingly.

正因为如此，任何愿意做出贡献的人都愿意加入我们。

We’ve continuously strived to turn Gujarat into a well-developed state.

我们不断努力将古吉拉特邦变成一个发达的邦。

And today, Gujarat is actively contributing toward building a developed India as well.

如今，古吉拉特邦也正在为建设发达的印度做出积极贡献。

A lot of people love you.

很多人爱你。

1:56:55 I’ve got to hear from a lot of them.

我必须听取他们中很多人的意见。

But there is also people who criticize you, including from the media.

但也有人批评你，包括媒体。

And folks in the media have criticized you over this 2002 Gujarat riots.

媒体人士就 2002 年古吉拉特邦骚乱批评了您。

What’s your relationship like with criticism?

你与批评的关系如何？

How do you deal with critics?

你如何对待批评者？

How do you deal with criticism coming from the media or in your own inner circle or just in your own life?

您如何处理来自媒体、您自己的核心圈子或您自己生活中的批评？

Look, regarding what you said about criticism and how I deal with it, if I had to summarize in one sentence, I welcome it.

你看，关于你所说的批评以及我的处理方式，如果非要我用一句话来概括的话，我是欢迎的。

1:57:24 I have a strong belief that criticism is the soul of democracy.

我坚信批评是民主的灵魂。

If democracy truly runs in your veins, you must embrace it.

如果民主真正流淌在你的血液里，你就必须拥抱它。

In our scriptures it’s said, always keep your critics close.

我们的经文中说，永远与你的批评者保持距离。

Critics should be your nearest companions, because through genuine criticism, you can improve quickly, and work democratically with better insights.

批评者应该是你最亲密的伙伴，因为通过真诚的批评，你可以快速进步，并以更好的见解民主地工作。

In fact, I believe we should have more criticism and it should be sharp and well-informed.

事实上，我认为我们应该有更多的批评，而且应该是尖锐的、消息灵通的。

1:58:23 But my real complaint is that nowadays what we see isn’t real criticism.

但我真正的抱怨是，现在我们看到的并不是真正的批评。

Genuine criticism requires thorough study, in-depth research and careful analysis.

真正的批评需要深入研究、深入研究、认真分析。

It demands finding the truth from falsehoods.

它要求从虚假中找出真相。

Today, people look for shortcuts, avoid proper research and skip deep analysis.

如今，人们寻找捷径，避免适当的研究并跳过深入的分析。

Instead of identifying genuine weaknesses, they jump straight to accusations.

他们没有找出真正的弱点，而是直接提出指控。

There’s a big difference between allegations and criticism.

指控和批评之间有很大区别。

The references you’re giving, they are allegations, not criticism.

您提供的参考资料是指控，而不是批评。

For a strong democracy, genuine criticism is necessary.

对于一个强大的民主国家来说，真正的批评是必要的。

Allegations benefit no one, they just cause unnecessary conflicts.

指控对任何人都没有好处，只会引发不必要的冲突。

That’s why I always welcome criticism openly.

这就是为什么我总是公开欢迎批评。

And whenever false accusations arise, I calmly continue serving my country with complete dedication.

每当出现不实指控时，我都会冷静地继续全心全意地为我的国家服务。

Yeah, the thing you speak of is very important to me because I admire great journalism.

是的，你所说的事情对我来说非常重要，因为我钦佩伟大的新闻业。

1:59:28 And unfortunately, in modern day, a lot of journalists seek clickbait headlines, make accusations, because they operate under incentive, because they want the headline, the cheap shot.

不幸的是，在现代，许多记者寻求标题诱饵，提出指控，因为他们在激励下运作，因为他们想要标题，廉价的镜头。

I think there is room and desire and hunger for great journalists, and that requires deep understanding.

我认为伟大的记者有空间、有渴望和渴望，而这需要深刻的理解。

And it saddens me how often…

我经常感到悲伤……

I don’t think I’m very good at this, but one of the reasons I really wanted to talk to you is because I don’t see enough high effort, deep dive research.

我认为我在这方面不是很擅长，但我真正想和你谈谈的原因之一是因为我没有看到足够多的努力、深入的研究。

I don’t know how many books I’ve read.

我不知道自己读了多少本书。

I’ve read a lot in preparing, just to experience, just to try to understand.

我在准备过程中读了很多书，只是为了体验，只是为了尝试理解。

It requires a lot of preparation, a lot of work, and I would love to see great journalists do that more.

这需要大量的准备、大量的工作，我希望看到优秀的记者做更多的事情。

And from that place, you can criticize.

从那个地方，你可以批评。

From that place, you can really investigate the complexity of a situation, of people in power; their strengths, their flaws, the mistakes they have made.

从那里，你可以真正调查情况、当权者的复杂性；他们的优点，他们的缺点，他们所犯的错误。

But that requires great, great, great preparation.

但这需要大量、大量、大量的准备。

So I wish there was more of that, of great journalism.

所以我希望有更多这样的、伟大的新闻报道。

Yes.

是的。

2:00:46 Clear, well-directed and specific criticism genuinely helps in the process of effective policymaking.

明确、针对性强和具体的批评确实有助于有效的决策过程。

It leads to a clear-cut policy vision.

它带来了明确的政策愿景。

I specifically pay close attention to such constructive criticism.

我特别关注这种建设性的批评。

In fact, I actively welcome it.

事实上，我是积极欢迎的。

2:01:06 Regarding your point about journalistic headlines, if someone’s attracted by catchy headlines or plays with words, I honestly don’t mind that much.

关于你关于新闻头条的观点，如果有人被吸引人的头条新闻或文字游戏所吸引，老实说我不太介意。

But when there’s a deliberate agenda behind the actions and the truth is deliberately ignored, that can cause damage that lasts for decades.

但当这些行为背后有一个故意的议程并且故意忽视真相时，可能会造成持续数十年的损害。

If someone focuses on pleasing their readers or viewers with attractive headlines, maybe we can compromise a little.

如果有人专注于用有吸引力的标题来取悦读者或观众，也许我们可以做出一些妥协。

But if there’s a hidden motive, or if things are intentionally twisted to serve an agenda, that’s a serious issue worth worrying about.

但如果存在隐藏的动机，或者如果事情被故意扭曲以服务于议程，那就是一个值得担心的严重问题。

And in that, the truth suffers, I think.

我认为，在这种情况下，真相会受到影响。

I remember once in London, I was invited to give a speech at an event organized by a Gujarati newspaper there.

我记得有一次在伦敦，我受邀在当地一家古吉拉特语报纸组织的活动上发表演讲。

2:01:54 So during my speech, I casually said, since it was an event attended by journalists, “What kind of journalism should we have?

所以在演讲的时候，我随口说，既然是记者参加的活动，我们应该有什么样的新闻？

Should it be like a fly or a bee?” I explained, “A fly sits on dirt and spreads the dirt around, but a bee lands on flowers, collects nectar, and then shares that sweetness everywhere.

它应该像苍蝇还是蜜蜂？”我解释说：“苍蝇落在泥土上，将泥土传播到周围，而蜜蜂则落在花朵上，采集花蜜，然后到处分享甜味。

Yet if something wrong occurs, the bee can sting so powerfully that you’d have to hide your face for three days straight.”

然而，如果出现问题，蜜蜂的蜇伤力会非常猛烈，你必须连续三天遮住脸。”

2:02:56 However, some people selectively picked up just half of my analogy and created a huge controversy out of it.

然而，有些人却选择性地采纳了我的一半比喻，并由此引发了巨大争议。

Honestly, was I being negative about anyone?

老实说，我对任何人都持消极态度吗？

Not at all.

一点也不。

I was simply highlighting the incredible strength of a bee, that even its small sting can leave such an impact that can make someone hide their face for days.

我只是强调蜜蜂令人难以置信的力量，即使是它的小刺也能产生如此大的影响，可以让人们隐藏好几天的脸。

You can’t show your face.

你不能露出你的脸。

That’s the power journalism should have.

这就是新闻业应有的力量。

But unfortunately, some people prefer the fly approach instead.

但不幸的是，有些人更喜欢苍蝇法。

I now have a new life goal of becoming the bee.

我现在有了一个新的人生目标：成为蜜蜂。

2:03:34 You mentioned democracy, and not knowing much about government until 2002, but from 2002 to today, you won eight elections that I could count.

你提到民主，直到2002年才对政府了解不多，但从2002年到今天，你赢得了我能数的八次选举。

So many of the elections, over 800 million people vote in India.

这么多的选举，印度有超过8亿人投票。

What does it take to win an election like that, and to win an election of 1.4 billion people where you get to represent those people, the biggest democracy in the world?

怎样才能赢得这样的选举，并赢得 14 亿人的选举，让你能够代表这些人民，成为世界上最大的民主国家？

Well, I’ve been actively involved in politics for years.

嗯，我多年来一直积极参与政治。

2:04:17 Before stepping into active politics, my focus was primarily on organizational work.

在参与积极的政治活动之前，我的重点主要是组织工作。

This also included managing elections and strategizing campaigns, so that was where I dedicated my time.

这还包括管理选举和制定竞选战略，所以这就是我投入时间的地方。

For 24 years, the people of Gujarat and India have placed their trust in me to lead with unwavering dedication and a deep sense of duty.

24 年来，古吉拉特邦和印度人民信任我以坚定不移的奉献精神和强烈的责任感来领导。

I try to fulfill the sacred duty entrusted to me by the people I revere as divine.

我努力履行我所尊崇的人们赋予我的神圣职责。

I remain committed to honoring their trust, ensuring it never falters.

我仍然致力于兑现他们的信任，确保其永不动摇。

And they see me for what I truly am.

他们看到了我真实的样子。

2:05:18 My government is committed to ensuring welfare schemes reach every citizen.

我的政府致力于确保福利计划惠及每个公民。

Every scheme must reach its intended beneficiaries.

每个计划都必须触及其预期受益人。

Every beneficiary must be treated equally.

每个受益人都必须受到平等对待。

No one should face discrimination on caste, creed, faith, wealth, or ideology.

任何人都不应面临种姓、信仰、信仰、财富或意识形态方面的歧视。

We must strive to ensure the well-being and prosperity of everyone.

我们必须努力确保每个人的福祉和繁荣。

This way, even those not directly benefiting, never feel left out or treated unfairly.

这样，即使那些没有直接受益的人也不会感到被排斥或受到不公平对待。

They find comfort in knowing they too will benefit in due course.

他们感到安慰的是，他们知道自己也会在适当的时候受益。

This fosters a deep sense of trust, and trust is the cornerstone of my governance model.

这培养了深厚的信任感，而信任是我的治理模式的基石。

2:06:09 Secondly, my governance flows beyond the ebb and flow of elections.

其次，我的治理超越了选举的潮起潮落。

My governance is rooted in the people, not the polls.

我的治理植根于人民，而不是民意调查。

It is committed to the well-being of my citizens and the greater good of the nation.

它致力于我国公民的福祉和国家的更大利益。

As you may know, I had once set out on a quest for spiritual awakening, so now I revere my nation as the Divine itself, and I now revere the people as a manifestation of the Divine.

如你所知，我曾经开始寻求精神觉醒，所以现在我将我的国家视为神圣本身，并将人民视为神圣的体现。

Like a devoted priest, my heart is set on serving the people.

我像一位虔诚的牧师一样，一心一意为人民服务。

I don’t distance myself from the people.

我不会与人民保持距离。

I live among them as one of them.

我作为他们中的一员生活在他们中间。

And I tell everyone I work with, if you work hard, I will work harder.

我告诉所有和我一起工作的人，如果你们努力工作，我就会更加努力。

People see this and it builds trust.

人们看到这一点并建立信任。

Besides, I have no conflicts of interest.

此外，我没有利益冲突。

I have no friends or relatives who stand to gain from the position I hold.

我没有任何朋友或亲戚可以从我所担任的职位中获益。

The common man appreciates this lack of vested interests, and that’s probably just one reason why.

普通人欣赏这种缺乏既得利益的情况，这可能只是原因之一。

2:07:21 Moreover, I come from a party with millions of dedicated volunteers.

而且，我来自一个拥有数百万奉献志愿者的政党。

Volunteers who are completely devoted to the welfare of India and its citizens.

完全致力于印度及其公民福祉的志愿者。

They have had no stake whatsoever in politics.

他们在政治中没有任何利害关系。

They’ve held no title, nor strayed where influence holds sway.

他们没有头衔，也没有迷失在有影响力的地方。

My party is blessed with millions of volunteers who work tirelessly.

我的政党有幸拥有数百万孜孜不倦工作的志愿者。

I am proud to belong to the world’s largest political party, and it’s not like my party has been around forever.

我为属于世界上最大的政党而感到自豪，但我的政党并不是永远存在的。

It reflects the hard work of millions of volunteers.

它体现了数百万志愿者的辛勤工作。

Their selfless service is widely recognized and valued by the community.

他们的无私服务得到了社会的广泛认可和重视。

It fortifies people’s trust in the BJP, echoed in the election results.

它增强了人们对印度人民党的信任，这在选举结果中得到了体现。

I never tallied our election triumphs, but we have had people’s blessings.

我从未统计过我们的选举胜利，但我们得到了人们的祝福。

I was wondering if you could speak to the incredible logistics, that blew my mind, of running the elections in India.

我想知道你能否谈谈印度选举过程中令人难以置信的后勤工作，这让我大吃一惊。

2:08:18 So there’s a lot of interesting anecdotes that arise, for example, that no voter should be more than two kilometers away from a polling station.

因此，出现了很多有趣的轶事，例如，任何选民都不能距离投票站超过两公里。

The result of that is you have these stories, of voting machines having to be carried to remote regions of India, is really incredible.

结果是你有这些故事，投票机必须被运送到印度的偏远地区，这真的令人难以置信。

Just every single voter counts, and the machinery of having 600 plus million people vote.

每个选民都很重要，而有 600 多万人投票的机制。

Is there some anecdote you could speak to that is particularly impressive to you?

有没有什么轶事让你印象特别深刻？

Or maybe you could speak generally to the logistics of what it makes to run an election that big, a democracy that big.

或者，也许你可以笼统地谈谈举行这么大的选举、这么大的民主制度的后勤工作。

First and foremost, I am truly grateful for your insightful question.

首先，我真诚地感谢您提出富有洞察力的问题。

2:09:10 Anyone who believes in democracy should listen to what I’m about to share with you.

任何相信民主的人都应该听听我将要与你们分享的内容。

We often discuss election results, but all the behind the scenes work is overlooked.

我们经常讨论选举结果，却忽略了所有幕后工作。

Let’s take the recently concluded 2024 general elections as an example.

我们以最近结束的2024年大选为例。

There were 980 million registered voters.

有9.8亿登记选民。

Each of those voters had a registered ID, and all the necessary details in a vast database.

每个选民都有一个注册身份证，所有必要的详细信息都存储在一个庞大的数据库中。

And this number is twice the entire population of North America.

而这个数字是北美总人口的两倍。

It even surpasses the total population of the entire European Union.

甚至超过了整个欧盟的人口总和。

Out of the 980 million registered voters, 646 million people ventured out, and braved the intense heat of May, determined to cast their votes.

9.8亿登记选民中，有6.46亿人冒着五月酷暑，毅然走出去投票。

Temperatures soared to 40 degrees in some areas, yet they chose to go, and the size of this voter base is double the population of the United States.

部分地区气温飙升至40度，他们却选择离开，而这个选民基数是美国人口的两倍。

2:10:36 We had more than a million polling booths.

我们有超过一百万个投票站。

Can you fathom all the manpower involved in this?

你能想象出这件事涉及的所有人力吗？

My country has more than 2,500 registered political parties.

我国有超过 2,500 个注册政党。

This staggering figure, with such a vast array of political parties, has the power to leave the entire world in awe.

这个惊人的人物，拥有如此庞大的政党，拥有让全世界敬畏的力量。

My country has more than 900 round-the-clock news channels.

我国有900多个全天候新闻频道。

There are over 5,000 newspapers published daily.

每天出版的报纸超过 5,000 种。

They each play a role in upholding democracy in their own way.

他们各自以自己的方式在维护民主方面发挥着作用。

Even the humblest villagers here embrace technology with remarkable swiftness.

即使是这里最卑微的村民也能以惊人的速度拥抱技术。

While some other countries take months to declare election results, we announced the results within a day, despite the mind-boggling number of voters.

其他一些国家需要几个月的时间才能公布选举结果，而我们在一天之内就公布了结果，尽管选民数量令人难以置信。

2:11:35 And you were spot on in saying that even the remotest villages have polling stations.

你说得很对，即使是最偏远的村庄也有投票站。

We even use helicopters to transport polling stations.

我们甚至使用直升机来运输投票站。

I believe Arunachal Pradesh has the highest altitude polling booth on record.

我相信阿鲁纳恰尔邦拥有有记录以来海拔最高的投票站。

In Gujarat, a polling booth was set up in the Gir Forest for just one voter, who was in the middle of nowhere, but we ensured a polling booth was set up for them.

在古吉拉特邦，吉尔森林只为一名选民设立了一个投票站，他身处偏僻的地方，但我们确保为他们设立了一个投票站。

All I mean to say…

我想说的是……

2:12:03 …

……

ensure the polling booth was set up for them.

确保为他们设立投票站。

All I mean to say is that we truly leave no stone unturned in our unwavering commitment to strengthening democracy, ensuring that we are always fully prepared and election ready no matter the circumstances.

我想说的是，我们确实不遗余力地坚定不移地致力于加强民主，确保无论情况如何，我们始终做好充分准备和选举准备。

I firmly believe that India’s Election Commission sets a global standard as a benchmark for conducting free and fair elections.

我坚信印度选举委员会制定了一个全球标准，作为进行自由公正选举的基准。

It is the Apex decision-maker.

它是Apex决策者。

This in itself is such a remarkable story that the world’s top universities should consider it a case study.

这本身就是一个非凡的故事，世界顶尖大学应该将其视为一个案例研究。

They should analyze the management behind it as a valuable learning example.

他们应该分析其背后的管理，作为一个有价值的学习例子。

Given the sheer number of voters, can you truly grasp the immense depth of political awareness?

鉴于选民数量之多，你能真正掌握政治意识的深度吗？

All of this will make for an excellent case study for the younger generation worldwide.

所有这些都将为全世界的年轻一代提供一个很好的案例研究。

To me, I love democracy.

对我来说，我热爱民主。

2:13:07 This is one of the main reasons I love the United States, but there’s just nothing quite as beautiful as democracy when it functions in India.

这是我喜欢美国的主要原因之一，但没有什么比民主在印度发挥作用更美好的了。

Like you said, 900 million people registered to vote.

正如你所说，有9亿人登记投票。

It really is a case study.

这确实是一个案例研究。

It’s beautiful to see that many people come together willingly, passionately casting a vote for some person to represent them like they’re putting their heart in that.

很高兴看到许多人自愿聚集在一起，热情地为某个代表他们的人投票，就像他们全心全意地投票一样。

It’s really important for a person to feel like their voice is going to be heard.

对于一个人来说，感觉自己的声音会被听到非常重要。

It’s beautiful.

很美丽。

Speaking of which, you are loved by a lot of people.

说起来，你受到很多人的喜爱。

You are one of the most powerful humans in the world.

你是世界上最强大的人类之一。

Do you sometimes think about whether this much power has a corrupting effect on your mind, especially across the many years that you’ve been in power?

你是否有时会想，这么多的权力是否会对你的思想产生腐蚀作用，尤其是在你执政多年的过程中？

Well, I don’t think the word powerful quite reflects the journey of my life.

嗯，我认为“强大”这个词并不能完全反映我的人生旅程。

2:14:03 I can never claim to be powerful.

我永远不能声称自己很强大。

For all I am is a humble servant, I even identify myself as not the Prime Minister, but the prime servant, and service is the guiding principle of my work ethic.

尽管我只是一个卑微的仆人，我什至认为自己不是首相，而是首相，服务是我职业道德的指导原则。

2:14:28 As far as power is concerned, it is something I have never bothered about.

至于权力，那是我从来不关心的事情。

I entered politics not to play power games, but to serve.

我进入政界不是为了玩权力游戏，而是为了服务。

Rather than seeking power, I stay committed to doing and getting work done.

我不追求权力，而是致力于做事并完成工作。

I am more focused on productivity than power.

我更关注生产力而不是力量。

I have always dedicated myself to serving the people.

我始终坚持全心全意为人民服务。

I have always devoted myself to bringing about a positive change in their lives.

我一直致力于为他们的生活带来积极的改变。

Like you mentioned, you work a lot.

就像你提到的，你工作很多。

2:15:04 You give your whole soul to your work.

您将整个灵魂投入到工作中。

Do you ever get lonely?

你有没有感到孤独的时候？

Look, I never experience loneliness because I am an ardent believer in the philosophy of one plus one, and this philosophy of one plus one is aligned with my moral compass, and whenever I am asked to elaborate on this outlook, I say, the first one represents Modi and the other one represents the Almighty.

你看，我从来没有经历过孤独，因为我是一加一哲学的狂热信徒，而这种一加一哲学与我的道德指南针是一致的，每当有人让我详细阐述这一观点时，我都会说，第一个代表莫迪，另一个代表全能者。

2:15:20 I am never alone for he is always there to keep me company.

我从不孤单，因为他总是陪伴着我。

This is just how I function.

这就是我的运作方式。

Having wholeheartedly embraced the ideals of Swami Vivekananda, I firmly believe that service to mankind is service to God.

我全心全意地接受斯瓦米·维韦卡南达的理想，坚信为人类服务就是为上帝服务。

For me, the nation itself is divine and mankind is a reflection of the divine.

对我来说，国家本身是神圣的，人类是神圣的反映。

I walk this path with the conviction that serving the people is serving the divine.

我走在这条道路上，坚信为人民服务就是为神服务。

That’s why the very notion of struggling with loneliness has never even remotely crossed my mind.

这就是为什么我从来没有想过与孤独作斗争的想法。

2:16:41 Like at the time of pandemic, with the lockdown and traveling restrictions in place, I came up with a way to make the most of my time.

就像在大流行期间一样，随着封锁和旅行限制的实施，我想出了一种充分利用时间的方法。

I designed a governance model that operated seamlessly through videoconferencing.

我设计了一个通过视频会议无缝运行的治理模型。

I kept myself occupied with remote work and virtual meetings.

我一直忙于远程工作和虚拟会议。

2:17:16 Another thing I did was to connect with the people I had worked with throughout my life.

我做的另一件事是与我一生共事过的人建立联系。

Among my party’s volunteers nationwide, I made a list of those who were 70 and older.

在我党全国志愿者中，我列出了70岁及以上的志愿者名单。

Some of the volunteers had very humble beginnings and came from very modest backgrounds.

有些志愿者的出身非常卑微，出身也非常卑微。

I personally called every volunteer aged 70 and above.

我亲自给每一位70岁以上的志愿者打电话。

I made it a point to inquire about their health and their family’s well-being.

我特意询问了他们的健康状况和家人的福祉。

I inquired about how their area was coping.

我询问他们的地区是如何应对的。

I asked these questions to make sure they were doing well.

我问这些问题是为了确保他们做得很好。

This allowed me to build rapport with them, and we would go down the memory lane.

这让我与他们建立了融洽的关系，我们会沿着记忆的轨迹走下去。

They were touched that the Prime Minister would check on them in the pandemic.

总理在疫情期间对他们进行检查，让他们很感动。

2:18:08 I made around 40 calls every day without fail.

我每天都会打大约40个电话，从来没有失败过。

I carried on with this throughout the pandemic.

在整个大流行期间我都坚持这样做。

It gave me the chance to reconnect and relive old memories with familiar faces.

它让我有机会与熟悉的面孔重新联系并重温旧的记忆。

Loneliness is never a concern for me, as I always find ways to stay engaged, and I have long been at peace with myself.

我从来不担心孤独，因为我总能找到保持忙碌的方法，而且我长期以来一直对自己感到平静。

The time I spent in the Himalayas have helped me develop this.

我在喜马拉雅山度过的时光帮助我发展了这一点。

I’ve heard from many people that you are the hardest worker they know.

我听很多人说你是他们认识的最努力的人。

2:18:35 What’s your philosophy behind that?

这背后的理念是什么？

Maybe you put in crazy hours every single day.

也许你每天都投入疯狂的时间。

Do you ever get tired?

你有感到疲倦的时候吗？

What’s your source of strength and perseverance through all of that?

你经历这一切的力量和毅力的来源是什么？

Look, first of all, I don’t believe I’m the only one working.

首先，我不相信我是唯一一个在工作的人。

2:18:56 I look at the people around me and always think these people work harder than I do.

我看着周围的人，总觉得这些人比我更努力。

When I think about farmers, I realize how hard they work.

当我想到农民时，我意识到他们是多么辛苦。

They toil and sweat under the open sky day after day.

他们日复一日地在广阔的天空下辛劳、流汗。

When I look at our country’s soldiers, I think about how many hours someone spends working tirelessly in snow, deserts, or even underwater day and night.

当我看着我们国家的士兵时，我会想到有多少个小时在雪地、沙漠、甚至水下日夜不知疲倦地工作。

When I see a laborer, I think about how hard they’re working.

当我看到工人时，我会想到他们工作有多辛苦。

I always think about how hard our mothers and sisters work in every family for the happiness of the family.

我时常想起我们每个家庭的母亲姐妹们为了家庭的幸福付出了多少努力。

They’re the first to wake up and the last to go to bed, taking care of everyone in the family, while also managing social responsibilities.

他们是第一个起床、最后一个睡觉的人，照顾家庭中的每个人，同时也承担社会责任。

Thinking of all this, I’m in awe of how hard people work.

想到这一切，我对人们的努力工作感到敬畏。

So I think, “How can I sleep?

于是我想：“我怎样才能睡觉呢？

How can I relax?” So naturally the motivation is right in front of my eyes.

我怎样才能放松？所以动机自然就在我眼前。

Those very things around me keep me motivated.

我周围的这些事情让我充满动力。

2:20:04 Secondly, my responsibilities keep pushing me forward.

其次，我的责任不断推动我前进。

The responsibilities entrusted to me by my fellow citizens always remind me that I’m not here to enjoy privileges.

我的同胞赋予我的责任总是提醒我，我来这里不是为了享受特权。

I will always give it my absolute best.

我将永远竭尽全力。

Perhaps there are a couple of things I may not accomplish, but there will never be a lack of effort or hard work from me.

也许有些事情我可能无法完成，但我永远不会缺少努力和努力。

When I was campaigning in 2014, I had made a promise first in Gujarat and later across India.

2014年竞选时，我首先在古吉拉特邦，然后在印度各地做出了承诺。

I promised my fellow citizens that I will never fall behind in hard work for my country.

我向同胞们保证，我在为祖国奋斗的过程中永远不会落后。

Secondly, I promised I would never act with bad intentions, and thirdly, I vowed I’d never do anything for personal gain.

第二，我发誓我永远不会做任何不怀好意的事情，第三，我发誓我永远不会做任何谋取私利的事情。

2:21:05 Today it’s been 24 years.

到今天已经24年了。

For such a long period, the people have entrusted me as head of government.

长期以来，人民信任我担任政府首脑。

I’ve continuously held myself to these three standards, and I still live by them today.

我一直坚持这三个标准，直到今天我仍然遵循它们。

My inspiration comes from serving 1.4 billion people from understanding and fulfilling their aspirations and addressing their needs.

我的灵感来自于为 14 亿人服务，了解并实现他们的愿望并满足他们的需求。

I’m always determined to do as much as I can, work as hard as possible.

我总是决心尽我所能，尽我所能，尽我所能。

Even today, my energy remains just as strong.

即使在今天，我的能量仍然一样强大。

Me as an engineer, as a person who loves mathematics, I have to ask Srinivasa Ramanujan is an Indian mathematician from a century ago.

我作为一个工程师，作为一个热爱数学的人，我不得不问斯里尼瓦萨·拉马努金是一位百年前的印度数学家。

2:21:42 He’s widely considered to be one of the greatest mathematicians of all time.

他被广泛认为是有史以来最伟大的数学家之一。

Self-taught, grew up in poverty.

自学成才，在贫困中长大。

You have often spoken about him.

你经常谈到他。

What do you find inspiring about him?

你觉得他有什么启发？

Look, I deeply respect him, and everyone in my country respects him as well, because I strongly believe there’s a deep connection between science and spirituality.

看，我深深地尊重他，我的国家的每个人也尊重他，因为我坚信科学和灵性之间存在着深厚的联系。

2:22:07 If you closely observe many scientifically advanced minds, you’ll find they’re often spiritually advanced too.

如果你仔细观察许多科学上先进的思想，你会发现他们在精神上也常常很先进。

They’re not disconnected from spirituality.

他们并没有与灵性脱节。

Srinivasa Ramanujan once said that his mathematical ideas came from the goddess he worshiped, meaning ideas emerge from spiritual discipline, and discipline is more than just hard work.

斯里尼瓦萨·拉马努金（Srinivasa Ramanujan）曾说过，他的数学思想来自他崇拜的女神，意思是思想源于精神纪律，而纪律不仅仅是努力工作。

It means fully devoting yourself to a task and completely immersing yourself into it so much that you become one with your work.

它意味着全身心地投入到一项任务中，并完全沉浸其中，从而与工作融为一体。

2:23:10 You see, the more open we are to new and different sources of knowledge, the more new ideas we’ll have.

你看，我们对新的和不同的知识来源越开放，我们就会有越多的新想法。

I think it’s important for us to clearly understand the difference between information and knowledge.

我认为清楚地理解信息和知识之间的区别对我们来说很重要。

Some people mistakenly confuse information with knowledge, carrying around large amounts of information, but I don’t believe information alone equals knowledge.

有些人错误地将信息与知识混为一谈，携带大量信息，但我不认为信息本身就等于知识。

Knowledge is something deeper.

知识是更深层次的东西。

It gradually evolves through processing, reflection and understanding.

它通过加工、反思和理解逐渐演变。

Recognizing this difference is important in how we handle both.

认识到这种差异对于我们如何处理两者非常重要。

You have a reputation for being a decisive leader.

您以果断的领导者而闻名。

2:23:49 So can you walk me through on this topic of ideas, how you make decisions?

那么您能向我介绍一下这个想法主题以及您如何做出决定吗？

What’s your process?

你的流程是什么？

So for instance, when facing a high stakes choice with no clear precedence, a lot of uncertainty, having to balance input, how do you make decisions?

例如，当面临一个没有明确优先顺序的高风险选择、很多不确定性、必须平衡输入时，你如何做出决策？

There are many factors to my decision making.

我的决定有很多因素。

2:24:13 First, I’m perhaps the only politician in India who has stayed overnight in around 85 to 90% of the districts across the country.

首先，我可能是印度唯一一位在全国约 85% 至 90% 的地区过夜的政客。

This was before my current role.

这是在我担任当前职务之前的事情。

I used to travel extensively.

我曾经经常旅行。

I learned a lot from those experiences.

我从这些经历中学到了很多。

They gave me firsthand knowledge of the ground realities and grassroots level issues, not something asked or heard or learned merely from books.

他们给了我关于现实和基层问题的第一手知识，而不是仅仅从书本上询问、听到或学到的东西。

Secondly, from a governance perspective, I carry no baggage of any kind.

其次，从治理的角度来看，我没有任何包袱。

I don’t carry any baggage that weighs me down or forces me to act a certain way.

我没有任何包袱让我感到沉重或强迫我以某种方式行事。

Thirdly, I have a simple yardstick for decisions.

第三，我有一个简单的决策标准。

My country first.

我的国家第一。

I always question if what I’m doing harms my nation in any way.

我总是质疑我所做的事情是否以任何方式伤害我的国家。

Additionally, Mahatma Gandhi once said that, if you’re ever unsure when making a decision, think of the poorest person’s face.

此外，圣雄甘地曾经说过，如果你在做决定时不确定，请想想最贫穷的人的脸。

Remember them and ask yourself, “Will this help them?” Then your decision will be right.

记住他们并问自己：“这会对他们有帮助吗？”那么你的决定就是正确的。

That wisdom always guides me, remembering ordinary citizens and considering how my actions affect them.

这种智慧始终指引着我，记住普通公民并考虑我的行为如何影响他们。

2:25:54 Another factor in my approach is that I’m very well-connected in my administration.

我的做法的另一个因素是我在政府中人脉非常广。

My officials know this well and probably feel overwhelmed by it, by the fact that my information channels are numerous and are very active.

我的官员们深知这一点，并且可能会因为我的信息渠道众多且非常活跃而感到不知所措。

Because of that, I receive lots of insights from various sources.

正因为如此，我从各种来源获得了很多见解。

So when someone comes to brief me, that’s not my only source of information.

因此，当有人来向我介绍情况时，这并不是我唯一的信息来源。

I always have additional perspectives available to me.

我总是有其他的观点可供我使用。

2:26:37 Another thing, I maintain a learner’s mindset.

另外，我保持学习者的心态。

Suppose I’m not familiar with something and an official explains it to me.

假设我不熟悉某件事，一位官员向我解释。

I approach them like a student and ask, “Can you clarify this?

我像学生一样接近他们并问：“你能澄清一下吗？

How does it work?

它是如何运作的？

Then what happens next and how?” Whenever I have different information, I deliberately play devil’s advocate and ask challenging questions.

那么接下来会发生什么以及如何发生？”每当我获得不同的信息时，我都会故意唱反调并提出具有挑战性的问题。

I thoroughly analyze the issue from multiple angles, hoping that careful evaluation will yield something valuable.

我从多个角度对这个问题进行了深入的分析，希望仔细的评估能得出有价值的东西。

Then once I converge toward a decision or action that is worth taking, I share the idea informally with like-minded people just to gauge their reactions and see how they respond, gathering insights and feedback before moving forward, until finally, I have a strong conviction that my decision is right.

然后，一旦我集中精力做出一个值得采取的决定或行动，我就会与志同道合的人非正式地分享这个想法，只是为了衡量他们的反应，看看他们如何回应，在继续前进之前收集见解和反馈，直到最后，我坚信我的决定是正确的。

2:27:46 This entire decision-making process doesn’t actually take much time.

整个决策过程实际上并不需要太多时间。

My speed is very fast.

我的速度很快。

Let me share an example.

让我分享一个例子。

How did I make decisions during COVID?

新冠疫情期间我是如何做出决定的？

I had Nobel Prize winners advising me, giving countless economic examples from around the world.

诺贝尔奖获得者为我提供了建议，他们给出了来自世界各地的无数经济例子。

They’d say, “This country is doing this, that country did that.

他们会说：“这个国家这样做，那个国家这样做。

You should do it too.” Renowned economists constantly bombarded me with suggestions.

你也应该这样做。”著名经济学家不断向我提出建议。

Political parties pressured me relentlessly, urging me to spend huge amounts of money, but I didn’t act immediately.

政党不断向我施压，催促我花巨额资金，但我没有立即行动。

I paused and reflected.

我停下来思考。

What exactly should I do?

我到底应该做什么？

Then considering the unique conditions of my own country, I made a clear decision.

然后考虑到自己国家的独特国情，我做出了明确的决定。

I wouldn’t let the poor sleep hungry.

我不会让穷人饿着肚子睡觉。

I wouldn’t allow social tensions to arise over basic daily needs.

我不允许因基本的日常需求而出现社会紧张局势。

2:28:43 These core principles guided my approach.

这些核心原则指导了我的方法。

The entire world was in lockdown.

整个世界都处于封锁状态。

Global economies were collapsing.

全球经济正在崩溃。

Everyone pressured me to empty the treasury, print more currency and flood money everywhere, but I decided that this was not the right economic route to follow.

每个人都向我施压，要求我清空国库，印制更多货币，并向各地注入大量资金，但我认为这不是正确的经济路线。

And so instead, the path I chose, after carefully listening to experts, understanding their opinions without opposing them and combining their advice with my own country’s situation and my personal experiences, created a system that worked effectively.

所以我选择的道路，是认真听取专家的意见，理解他们的意见，但不反对他们，结合他们的建议和我自己国家的情况和我的个人经历，创造了一个行之有效的制度。

As a result, when the whole world suffered from severe inflation immediately after COVID, India did not.

结果，当新冠疫情爆发后全世界立即遭受严重通货膨胀时，印度却没有。

2:29:38 Today, my country is steadily advancing at a rapid pace, emerging as one of the fastest growing major economies in the world.

今天，我国正在稳步快速前进，成为世界上增长最快的主要经济体之一。

The main reason is that during that crisis, with patience and discipline, I resisted the temptation to apply every global theory blindly.

主要原因是，在那次危机期间，我凭着耐心和纪律，抵制住了盲目应用每一种全球理论的诱惑。

We didn’t worry about what newspapers would say, whether they’d praise or criticize.

我们不担心报纸会说什么，是赞扬还是批评。

Ignoring all that, I stayed focused on basic fundamentals, and by doing so, we succeeded and kept moving ahead.

忽略这一切，我继续专注于基本原理，通过这样做，我们成功并不断前进。

So ultimately, my economy benefited as well.

所以最终，我的经济也受益了。

My approach has always been to stay focused on these fundamentals.

我的方法始终是专注于这些基础知识。

2:30:22 Another strength is my risk-taking capacity.

我的另一个优势是冒险能力。

I don’t worry about potential losses for myself.

我不担心自己可能遭受损失。

If something is right for my country, for the people, I’m always prepared to take the risk.

如果某件事对我的国家、对人民来说是正确的，我总是准备好冒险。

Secondly, I take ownership of my decisions.

其次，我对自己的决定负责。

If something goes wrong, I don’t ship blame to others.

如果出现问题，我不会将责任归咎于他人。

I stand up, take responsibility, and own the outcome.

我站起来，承担责任，并承担结果。

When you take ownership, your team also becomes deeply committed.

当你掌握主动权时，你的团队也会变得更加忠诚。

They know this person won’t let us down, won’t abandon us.

他们知道这个人不会让我们失望，不会抛​​弃我们。

He’ll always stand with us because they see I’m making honest decisions, not for myself, but for the nation.

他将永远与我们站在一起，因为他们看到我正在做出诚实的决定，不是为了我自己，而是为了国家。

I’ve openly told the country from the start, I’m human.

我从一开始就公开告诉这个国家，我是人。

I can make mistakes, but I won’t act with bad intentions.

我可以犯错误，但我不会恶意行事。

People remember those words clearly.

人们清楚地记得这句话。

Even if something doesn’t go as planned, they trust that Modi’s intentions were right.

即使事情没有按计划进行，他们也相信莫迪的意图是正确的。

They think he probably meant to do something good even if it didn’t work out.

他们认为他可能想做一些好事，即使没有成功。

So society sees and accepts me just as I am.

所以社会就按照我本来的样子看待并接受我。

You gave a powerful speech on AI a few weeks ago at the AI Summit in France.

几周前，您在法国人工智能峰会上就人工智能发表了强有力的演讲。

2:31:35 In it you spoke about the talent pool for AI engineers in India.

您在其中谈到了印度人工智能工程师的人才库。

I think it’s probably one of the biggest pools of brilliant engineers in the world.

我认为它可能是世界上最大的杰出工程师库之一。

So how can India become the leader in the space of AI?

那么印度如何成为人工智能领域的领导者呢？

Currently lags behind the United States.

目前落后于美国。

What does it take for India to start winning and leading the world in AI?

印度需要什么才能在人工智能领域赢得并引领世界？

One thing I’m about to say might sound strong, and it may even upset some people, but since you’ve asked, I’ll speak openly from my heart.

我要说的一件事可能听起来很强烈，甚至可能会让一些人感到不安，但既然你问了，我就开诚布公地说出我的心里话。

2:32:09 No matter what the world does with AI, it will remain incomplete without India.

无论世界如何对待人工智能，如果没有印度，一切都将是不完整的。

I’m making this statement very responsibly.

我非常负责任地发表此声明。

Tell me, you’ve heard my speech at the AI Summit in Paris on global cooperation.

告诉我，你听过我在巴黎人工智能峰会上关于全球合作的演讲。

What do you think?

你怎么认为？

Can anyone develop AI entirely on their own?

任何人都可以完全靠自己开发人工智能吗？

What is your perspective on this?

您对此有何看法？

You gave, actually, in your speech a brilliant example of the positive impact of AI and the limitations of AI.

事实上，您在演讲中给出了一个很好的例子，说明了人工智能的积极影响和人工智能的局限性。

2:32:56 I think the example you gave is when you ask it to generate an image of a person writing with their left hand-

我认为你给出的例子是当你要求它生成一个人用左手写字的图像时 -

Left hand.

左手。

…

……

2:33:17 it’s always going to generate a person writing with their right hand.

它总是会产生一个用右手写字的人。

So in that way, the West creating an AI system where India is not part of that process is always going to generate the person with the right hand is an essential part of what the world is historically, but especially in the 21st century.

因此，西方创建的人工智能系统（印度不参与这一过程）总是会产生右手人，这是世界历史上的一个重要组成部分，尤其是在 21 世纪。

I agree.

我同意。

2:33:43 I believe AI development is fundamentally a collaboration.

我相信人工智能的开发从根本上来说是一种协作。

Everyone involved supports one another through shared experiences and learning.

每个参与者都通过分享经验和学习相互支持。

India isn’t just developing theoretical AI models.

印度不仅仅在开发理论人工智能模型。

It is actively working on and bringing to life AI-driven applications for very specific use cases to ensure that GPU access is available to every section of society.

它正在积极致力于针对特定用例开发并实现人工智能驱动的应用程序，以确保社会各阶层都可以使用 GPU。

We have already created a unique marketplace-based model to ensure its broad accessibility.

我们已经创建了一个独特的基于市场的模型，以确保其广泛的可访问性。

A significant mindset shift is taking place in India, though historical influences, traditional government procedures or the lack of strong support infrastructure made us appear as lagging behind to others.

印度正在发生重大的思维转变，尽管历史影响、传统的政府程序或缺乏强有力的基础设施支持使我们显得落后于其他国家。

2:34:49 Take 5G for example.

以5G为例。

The world initially believed we were far behind, but once we started, we became the fastest nation globally to roll out comprehensive 5G networks.

世界最初认为我们远远落后，但一旦我们开始，我们就成为全球推出全面 5G 网络最快的国家。

Recently, an American company executive visited me and shared his experiences about this very fact.

最近，一位美国公司高管来拜访我，并分享了他对这一事实的经历。

He told me that if I were to advertise in the US for engineers, I would only receive enough applicants to fill a single room at best.

他告诉我，如果我在美国招聘工程师，我最多只能收到足够填满一个房间的申请者。

But if I do the same in India, even a football field wouldn’t be enough to hold them.

但如果我在印度做同样的事情，即使是一个足球场也不足以容纳他们。

This indicates that India has access to an extraordinarily vast pool of talent, and that’s our greatest strength.

这表明印度拥有极其庞大的人才库，这是我们最大的优势。

After all, artificial intelligence is fundamentally powered, shaped, and guided by human intelligence.

毕竟，人工智能从根本上来说是由人类智能提供动力、塑造和指导的。

Without genuine human intelligence, AI can’t thrive or progress sustainably, and that real intelligence exists abundantly in India’s youth and talent pool, and I believe that’s our greatest asset.

没有真正的人类智慧，人工智能就无法蓬勃发展或可持续发展，而真正的智慧存在于印度的年轻人和人才库中，我相信这是我们最大的资产。

But also if you look, many of the top tech leaders, first of all, tech talent, but tech leaders in the US are of Indian origin, Sundar Pichai, Satya Nadella, Aravind Srinivas.

但如果你仔细观察，你会发现，许多顶级科技领导者，首先是科技人才，但美国的科技领导者都是印度裔，比如桑达尔·皮查伊 (Sundar Pichai)、萨蒂亚·纳德拉 (Satya Nadella)、阿拉文德·斯里尼瓦斯 (Aravind Srinivas)。

2:36:10 You’ve met with some of them.

你已经见过他们中的一些人了。

What spirit of their Indian origins do you think they carry in them that enables them to be so successful?

您认为他们身上的印度血统是什么精神使他们能够如此成功？

Look, Indian culture emphasizes that there should be equal respect for the place where you’re born and the place where you work.

你看，印度文化强调对你出生的地方和你工作的地方应该给予同等的尊重。

2:36:35 There should be no difference.

应该没有区别。

As much as there is dedication to the land of birth, there should be the same sense of dedication to the land of work.

对出生地有多大的奉献精神，就应该对工作的土地有同样的奉献精神。

You should always give your best wherever you are.

无论你身在何处，你都应该尽力而为。

Because of these rich cultural values, every Indian strives to give their best effort, regardless of their role or position.

由于这些丰富的文化价值观，每个印度人都努力尽最大努力，无论其角色或地位如何。

They don’t wait until they’re in senior roles, even in smaller roles.

他们不会等到担任高级职位，甚至担任较小的职位。

2:37:10 Secondly, they never get involved in anything questionable or unethical.

其次，他们从不参与任何有问题或不道德的事情。

They tend to remain dedicated to what’s right and ethical.

他们倾向于继续致力于正确和道德的事情。

Their nature is collaborative.

他们的本质是协作。

They easily get along with others, eventually for success.

他们很容易与他人相处，最终获得成功。

Just having knowledge isn’t enough.

仅仅拥有知识是不够的。

The ability to work effectively as part of a team matters significantly more.

作为团队的一部分有效工作的能力更为重要。

Understanding people and harnessing their abilities is an incredibly valuable skill.

理解人并利用他们的能力是一项非常有价值的技能。

2:37:38 Generally, people raised in India, especially those coming from joint families and brought up in an open society, find it easier to lead complex tasks and large teams effectively.

一般来说，在印度长大的人，尤其是那些来自联合家庭并在开放社会中长大的人，发现更容易有效地领导复杂的任务和大型团队。

That’s why today, in major corporations across the globe, you’ll find Indians holding key leadership positions.

这就是为什么今天在全球各大公司中，你会发现印度人占据着关键的领导职位。

The problem-solving abilities, along with the analytical thinking of Indian professionals are truly exceptional.

印度专业人士解决问题的能力以及分析思维确实非常出色。

I believe this capability is so strong, it makes Indians globally competitive and extremely valuable on the international stage.

我相信这种能力非常强大，它使印度人具有全球竞争力，在国际舞台上极具价值。

This is the reason why in fields like innovation, entrepreneurship, startups and boardrooms, you’ll find Indians achieving extraordinary results everywhere.

这就是为什么在创新、创业、初创企业和董事会等领域，你会发现印度人到处取得非凡的成就。

2:38:37 Take our space sector, for example.

以我们的航天部门为例。

Previously, it was entirely government-controlled, but just a couple of years ago, I opened it up to the private sector, and now we already have 200 startups working in space technology.

以前，它完全由政府控制，但就在几年前，我向私营部门开放，现在我们已经有 200 家从事太空技术的初创公司。

Moreover, our missions like Chandrayaan are extremely cost-effective.

此外，像月船这样的任务非常具有成本效益。

India’s Chandrayaan mission costs less than what Hollywood spends making a single blockbuster film.

印度“月船”任务的成本比好莱坞制作一部大片的成本还低。

So when the world sees how cost-effective our work is, they naturally think why not partner with India?

因此，当世界看到我们的工作具有如此高的成本效益时，他们自然会想到为什么不与印度合作呢？

This automatically generates respect for Indian talent globally.

这自然会在全球范围内产生对印度人才的尊重。

I believe this is a hallmark of our civilizational ethos.

我相信这是我们文明精神的标志。

You spoke about this human intelligence.

你谈到了人类的智慧。

2:39:28 Do you worry that AI, artificial intelligence, will replace us humans?

你担心AI、人工智能会取代我们人类吗？

It’s true that in every era, a competitive atmosphere was created between technology and humanity.

确实，每一个时代，科技与人类之间都会营造出一种竞争的氛围。

2:39:38 At times, it was even portrayed as conflict.

有时，它甚至被描述为冲突。

It was often portrayed as if technology would challenge human existence itself.

人们经常将其描绘成技术将挑战人类生存本身。

But every time, as technology advanced, humans adapted and stayed a step ahead.

但每次，随着技术的进步，人类都会适应并保持领先一步。

It has always been the case.

一直都是这样。

After all, it is humans who find the best ways to use technology to their advantage.

毕竟，是人类找到了利用技术为自己谋利的最佳方法。

I believe that with AI, humans are now being forced to reflect on what it truly means to be human.

我相信，有了人工智能，人类现在被迫反思人类的真正意义。

This is the real power of AI.

这就是人工智能的真正力量。

Because of the way AI functions, it has challenged how we perceive work itself.

由于人工智能的运作方式，它挑战了我们对工作本身的看法。

But human imagination is the fuel.

但人类的想象力是燃料。

AI can create many things based on that, and in the future it may achieve even more.

人工智能可以在此基础上创造出很多东西，并且在未来它可能会取得更多的成就。

Still, I firmly believe that no technology can ever replace the boundless creativity and imagination of the human mind.

尽管如此，我坚信任何技术都无法取代人类思维的无限创造力和想象力。

I agree with you.

我同意你的看法。

2:41:05 It does make me and a lot of people wonder what makes humans special because it seems that there’s a lot that makes humans special.

这确实让我和很多人想知道是什么让人类变得特别，因为似乎有很多东西让人类变得特别。

The imagination, the creativity, the consciousness, the ability to be afraid, to love, to dream, to think outside of the box, outside of the box of the box of the box, take risks, all of those things.

想象力，创造力，意识，害怕的能力，爱的能力，梦想的能力，跳出框框思考的能力，跳出框框的框框，冒险的能力，所有这些东西。

Now, look, humans have an innate ability to care for each other, the natural tendency to be concerned about one another.

现在，看，人类有一种与生俱来的互相关心的能力，一种互相关心的自然倾向。

2:41:32 Now, can someone tell me, is AI capable of this?

现在，有人能告诉我，人工智能有能力做到这一点吗？

This is one of the big open questions of the 21st century.

这是 21 世纪悬而未决的重大问题之一。

2:41:46 Every year you host the Pariksha Pe Charcha where you interact directly with young students and give them advice on how to prepare for exams.

每年您都会举办 Pariksha Pe Charcha 活动，与年轻学生直接互动，并为他们提供如何准备考试的建议。

I watched a bunch of them.

我看了其中的一堆。

So you give advice on how to succeed in exams, how to manage stress, all those kinds of things.

所以你就如何在考试中取得成功、如何管理压力等等提出建议。

Can you explain at a high level the different exams that students in India need to take in their education journey and why it’s so stressful?

您能否从高层次上解释一下印度学生在求学过程中需要参加的不同考试以及为什么压力如此之大？

By and large, a strange mindset has developed in society today.

总的来说，当今社会已经形成了一种奇怪的心态。

2:42:19 Even schools measure their success by students’ rankings.

甚至学校也通过学生的排名来衡量他们的成功。

Families too feel pride when their child achieves a high rank because they believe it improves their educational and social status.

当孩子获得高排名时，家庭也会感到自豪，因为他们相信这会提高他们的教育和社会地位。

This mentality has resulted in increased pressure on children.

这种心态导致孩子的压力越来越大。

Kids also began feeling that their entire lives depend on 10th and 12th grade exams.

孩子们也开始觉得他们的一生都取决于 10 年级和 12 年级的考试。

2:42:53 We’ve introduced significant changes in our new education policy to address this issue.

为了解决这个问题，我们对新的教育政策进行了重大改变。

But until those changes take effect on the ground, I feel another responsibility.

但在这些改变真正生效之前，我感到了另一项责任。

If our children face challenges, it’s my duty to listen to them, understand them, and ease their burden.

如果我们的孩子面临挑战，我有责任倾听他们的心声，理解他们，减轻他们的负担。

In a way, when I conduct Pariksha Pe Charcha, I get insights directly from the students, understand their parents’ mindset, as well as the perspectives of people in the educational field.

在某种程度上，当我主持Pariksha Pe Charcha时，我直接从学生那里获得见解，了解他们父母的心态，以及教育领域人士的观点。

So these discussions don’t just benefit the students.

因此，这些讨论不仅使学生受益。

They benefit me too.

他们也让我受益匪浅。

2:43:37 Exams are valuable for assessing knowledge in a specific domain, but they can’t become the sole measure of someone’s overall potential.

考试对于评估特定领域的知识很有价值，但它们不能成为衡量某人整体潜力的唯一标准。

Many people may not score high academically, yet can hit a century in cricket because that’s where their true strength lies.

许多人可能在学业上得分不高，但可以在板球运动中打百年，因为那是他们真正的力量所在。

When the focus shifts to actual learning, scores tend to naturally improve.

当重点转移到实际学习上时，成绩往往会自然提高。

2:44:08 I remember when I was a student, I had a teacher whose learning techniques still greatly appeal to me today.

我记得当我还是一名学生时，我有一位老师，他的学习技巧至今仍然对我很有吸引力。

He would give us children specific instructions.

他会给我们孩子具体的指示。

To one child he would say, “Tomorrow, bring exactly 10 chickpeas from home.” To another, he might request, ” Bring 15 grains of rice.

他会对一个孩子说：“明天，从家里带 10 个鹰嘴豆。”对于另一个人，他可能会要求：“带 15 粒米来。”

No more.

没有了。

No less.” A third child could be told, “Bring 21 mung beans.

不少。”第三个孩子可能会被告知：“带 21 颗绿豆来。

Precisely that number.” Different students got different quantities and varieties.

正是这个数字。”不同的学生得到的数量和品种不同。

So each child would think, “I need to get exactly 10.” Counting them at home helped them memorize numbers naturally.

所以每个孩子都会想：“我需要正好得到 10 个。”在家数数可以帮助他们自然地记住数字。

Then they’d learn what chickpeas were, and after returning to school, they’d pool it all.

然后他们会了解什么是鹰嘴豆，回到学校后，他们会把所有的东西集中起来。

The teacher would then ask, ” Take out 10 chickpeas, three chickpeas, two mung beans-“

老师就会问：“拿出10个鹰嘴豆，3个鹰嘴豆，2个绿豆——”

2:45:03 …

……

take out 10 chickpeas, three chickpeas, two mung beans.

取出10个鹰嘴豆，三个鹰嘴豆，两个绿豆。

This way children learned math and could identify chickpeas and mung beans effortlessly.

通过这种方式，孩子们可以学习数学，并可以轻松识别鹰嘴豆和绿豆。

I’m talking about early childhood education here.

我这里说的是幼儿教育。

Such learning techniques educate children without burdening them, and we’ve incorporated similar methods into our new education policy.

这种学习技巧可以在不给孩子带来负担的情况下教育他们，我们已将类似的方法纳入我们的新教育政策中。

2:45:22 When I was in school, I observed one of my teachers using an innovative idea.

当我在学校时，我观察到我的一位老师使用了一个创新的想法。

On his very first day, he placed a diary on the table and said, “Whoever arrives earliest each morning will write one sentence in this diary along with their name.” The next student would then need to write a related sentence.

第一天，他在桌子上放了一本日记，说道：“每天早上谁来得最早，就在日记里写上一句话和名字。”然后下一个学生需要写一个相关的句子。

2:45:52 At first, I’d rush to school very early every day.

起初，我每天很早就赶去学校。

Why?

为什么？

So that I could write the first sentence.

这样我就可以写出第一句话。

I once wrote something like, “Today’s sunrise was magnificent.

我曾经写过这样的话：“今天的日出真美。

It filled me with energy.” I’d write my name and whoever arrived after me had to write something connected to the sunrise as well.

它让我充满了能量。”我会写下我的名字，而在我之后到达的人也必须写一些与日出有关的东西。

2:46:20 After a few days, I realized my creativity wasn’t improving much from this.

几天后，我意识到我的创造力并没有因此而提高太多。

Why?

为什么？

Because I’d arrived with the fixed thought already in mind and simply write it down.

因为我已经带着固定的想法来到这里，并将其写下来。

So I decided I’d start going last instead.

所以我决定从最后开始。

What happened then was that I’d read what others had written first and then try to give my very best.

然后发生的事情是，我先阅读别人写的东西，然后尽力做到最好。

2:46:48 As a result, my creativity began to improve even more.

结果，我的创造力开始进一步提高。

Sometimes teachers do these small simple activities that greatly impact your life.

有时老师做的这些小而简单的活动会对你的生活产生很大的影响。

These experiences combined with my own background in organizational work, made human resource development a key area of focus for me.

这些经验与我自己的组织工作背景相结合，使人力资源开发成为我关注的一个关键领域。

2:47:14 That’s why I engage with children through events once or twice each year and over time, these efforts have resulted in a book that’s benefiting thousands of children serving as a valuable reference for them.

这就是为什么我每年都会通过一两次活动与孩子们互动，随着时间的推移，这些努力已经产生了一本书，使成千上万的孩子受益，成为他们的宝贵参考书。

Can you speak a little bit more by way of advice to students of how to be successful on their path in their career, how to find the career and how to find success in India and just to all the people across the world who find inspiration in your words?

您能否向学生们以及全世界所有在您的话语中找到灵感的人们提供更多建议，告诉他们如何在职业道路上取得成功、如何找到职业以及如何在印度取得成功？

I believe that whatever task you get, if you perform that task with complete dedication and sincerity, they inevitably become an expert sooner or later, and their enhanced capabilities open doors to success.

我相信，无论你接到什么任务，如果你全心投入和真诚地完成这项任务，他们迟早会成为专家，而他们增强的能力将为成功打开大门。

2:48:23 While working, one must continually strive to improve their skills and should never underestimate their ability to learn.

在工作中，必须不断努力提高自己的技能，永远不要低估自己的学习能力。

When someone constantly neglects their learning ability, they limit their growth, but those who look beyond their tasks and observe what others around them are doing, their capacity can double or even triple.

当一个人不断忽视自己的学习能力时，他们的成长就会受到限制，但那些超越自己的任务并观察周围其他人在做什么的人，他们的能力可以增加一倍甚至三倍。

2:48:54 To young people I’d say this clearly, there’s no need to feel discouraged.

我想对年轻人说清楚，没有必要灰心丧气。

There’s certainly some task out there destined just for you.

肯定有一些任务是专门为您准备的。

Don’t worry.

不用担心。

Focus on enhancing your skills and opportunities will come.

专注于提高你的技能，机会就会到来。

2:49:15 You may think, “I wanted to be a doctor, but became a teacher.

你可能会想：“我想成为一名医生，但后来成为了一名教师。

My life is wasted.” Thinking like that won’t help you at all.

我的生命被浪费了。”这样想对你一点帮助都没有。

All right, you didn’t become a doctor, but as a teacher, you can shape 100 doctors.

好吧，你没有成为一名医生，但作为一名教师，你可以塑造100名医生。

2:49:28 If you had become a doctor, you’d serve only your patients.

如果你成为一名医生，你只会为你的病人服务。

But now, as a teacher, you can inspire students to fulfill their dreams of becoming doctors so that both you and your students can together serve millions of patients.

但现在，作为一名教师，您可以激励学生实现成为医生的梦想，以便您和您的学生能够共同为数百万患者服务。

Then he gains a new perspective on life.

然后他对生活有了新的看法。

2:49:44 “I couldn’t become a doctor so I was miserable and I was unhappy being a teacher, but now I realize as a teacher, I can create doctors.” Connecting your life to a greater purpose brings a sense of inspiration and meaning.

“我无法成为一名医生，所以我很痛苦，当一名老师时我也不开心，但现在我意识到作为一名老师，我可以创造医生。”将你的生活与更伟大的目标联系起来会带来灵感和意义。

I have always believed that God has given everyone unique capabilities.

我一直相信上帝赋予了每个人独特的能力。

Never lose faith in your own abilities.

永远不要对自己的能力失去信心。

You should always maintain trust in your own abilities.

您应该始终对自己的能力保持信任。

Keep believing in yourself and trust that when the opportunity comes, you’ll perform and you’ll succeed.

继续相信自己，相信当机会来临时，你会表现出色并取得成功。

That confidence makes a person deliver results.

这种信心使一个人取得成果。

How do those students deal with stress, with struggle, with difficulties along that path?

那些学生如何应对这条道路上的压力、挣扎和困难？

Parents must first understand that life is not just about taking exams.

家长首先要明白，生活不仅仅是考试。

2:50:33 Families should understand that their children aren’t trophies meant to be displayed or models to show off in society.

家庭应该明白，他们的孩子不是用来展示的战利品，也不是用来在社会上炫耀的模特。

It’s not about saying, “Look, my kid scores so high.” Parents really need to stop using their kids just as status symbols.

这并不是说，“看，我的孩子得分这么高。”父母真的需要停止将孩子当作地位的象征。

2:50:55 Secondly, students should always keep themselves well-prepared beforehand.

其次，学生要时刻做好事前的准备。

Only then can they appear for exams feeling stress-free and confident.

只有这样，他们才能毫无压力、自信地参加考试。

They should have complete trust in themselves and their abilities.

他们应该完全相信自己和自己的能力。

2:51:12 Sometimes I see students panic over the smallest issues during exams.

有时我看到学生在考试时对最小的问题感到恐慌。

They take papers or other things, and when their pen suddenly stops working causing anxiety, sometimes they feel uneasy thinking, “Oh no, I don’t like sitting next to this person.” If the bench wobbles, their whole attention goes there, indicating self-doubt.

他们拿纸或其他东西，当笔突然停止工作而引起焦虑时，有时他们会感到不安，想：“哦，不，我不喜欢坐在这个人旁边。”如果长凳摇晃，他们的全部注意力都会集中在那里，表明他们有自我怀疑。

2:51:33 Those lacking confidence constantly keep looking for distractions.

那些缺乏自信的人不断地寻找干扰。

But if you are confident and have genuinely worked hard, just take a minute, take some deep breaths, relax your mind and refocus your attention calmly.

但是，如果您有信心并且真正努力工作，请花一点时间，深呼吸，放松心情并平静地重新集中注意力。

2:51:48 Slowly read through the questions and allocate your time systematically.

慢慢地阅读问题并系统地分配你的时间。

“I have this amount of time I’ll dedicate these minutes per question.” In my experience, students who regularly practice writing test papers can easily overcome such situations without any trouble at all.

“我有这么多时间，我会用这些时间来回答每个问题。”根据我的经验，经常练习写试卷的学生可以轻松克服这种情况，没有任何麻烦。

And you said, “Always focus on learning.” What’s your approach to learning?

你说：“永远专注于学习。”你的学习方法是什么？

2:52:05 What advice can you give on how to learn best, not just when you’re young, throughout your life?

对于如何最好地学习，而不仅仅是在年轻时，以及在一生中如何最好地学习，您有什么建议？

Let me share a personal example with you.

让我与您分享一个个人例子。

2:52:19 I used to learn a lot from reading, but these days, more and more, I learn by being fully present.

我曾经从阅读中学到很多东西，但现在，我越来越多地通过全神贯注来学习。

Whenever I meet someone, I am fully present in the moment.

每当我遇到某人时，我都会全神贯注地活在当下。

I give them my full attention.

我给予他们全部的注意力。

This complete focus allows me to grasp new concepts quickly.

这种完全的专注让我能够快速掌握新概念。

2:52:48 When I’m with you, I’m fully present, grounded in the moment.

当我和你在一起时，我会全神贯注，脚踏实地。

No calls or messages can pull me away from this moment with you.

任何电话或消息都无法让我远离与你在一起的这一刻。

I am fully present focused on the here and now.

我完全专注于此时此地。

That’s why I always believe this is a habit everyone should embrace.

这就是为什么我始终相信这是每个​​人都应该养成的习惯。

2:53:06 It will sharpen your mind and improve your learning ability.

它将磨砺你的思维并提高你的学习能力。

Besides, knowledge alone cannot light the way.

此外，仅靠知识并不能照亮道路。

You must immerse yourself in the flow of practice.

你必须让自己沉浸在练习的流程中。

You cannot master driving merely by reading the life stories of great drivers.

仅通过阅读伟大驾驶员的人生故事是无法掌握驾驶技术的。

You must get behind the wheel and take the road yourself.

您必须亲自驾驶并亲自上路。

2:53:26 You must dare to take risks.

你必须敢于冒险。

You can never master the road if fear of accident or death holds you back.

如果对事故或死亡的恐惧阻碍了你，你永远无法掌控道路。

I truly believe that those who live in the present are the ones who live their life to the fullest.

我坚信，活在当下的人，才是生活最充实的人。

That’s because they know that every moment lived has already slipped into the past.

那是因为他们知道，生活的每一刻都已经成为过去。

2:53:53 So you must embrace the moment before it fades into the past.

所以你必须在它消失之前拥抱这一刻。

Otherwise, chasing the future only turns the present into the past.

否则，追逐未来只会让现在变成过去。

It’s not a trade worth making.

这不是一笔值得做的交易。

Most people stress so much about the future that their present quietly slips away.

大多数人对未来过于关注，以至于他们的现在悄然溜走了。

Before they know it the moment has already faded into the past.

在他们意识到之前，这一刻已经成为过去。

Yeah, I’ve heard a lot of stories of you having meetings with people and it’s usually all the distractions, there’s no distractions.

是的，我听过很多关于你与人会面的故事，通常都是干扰，没有干扰。

2:54:19 It’s just two human beings just like this and just focused on the moment and the interaction.

就这样两个人，只专注于当下和互动。

That’s a really beautiful thing.

这真是一件美好的事情。

And today really is a gift that you would give that focus to me, so thank you.

今天确实是一份礼物，您将注意力集中在我身上，所以谢谢您。

2:54:42 Let me ask maybe a difficult, maybe a human question.

让我问一个也许是一个困难的、也许是一个人性的问题。

Do you contemplate your mortality?

你考虑过你的死亡吗？

Are you afraid of death?

你害怕死亡吗？

Can I ask you a question instead?

我可以问你一个问题吗？

Sure.

当然。

I have a very interesting question.

我有一个非常有趣的问题。

2:54:58 Life and death are two sides of a coin, but which of the two is more certain?

生与死是硬币的正反面，但两者哪一个更确定呢？

Death.

死亡。

Exactly.

确切地。

2:55:10 Now, with that out of the way, we know for a fact that life itself is a whispered promise of death, and yet life is also destined to flourish.

现在，随着这个问题的解决，我们知道一个事实：生命本身就是死亡的低声承诺，但生命也注定会蓬勃发展。

So again, in the dance of life and death, only death is certain, so why fear what is certain?

再说一次，在生与死的舞蹈中，只有死亡是确定的，那么为什么要害怕确定的事情呢？

That’s why you must embrace life instead of fretting over death.

这就是为什么你必须拥抱生命而不是为死亡而烦恼。

2:55:43 That’s how life will evolve and flourish, for it is uncertain.

生命就是这样进化和繁荣的，因为它是不确定的。

That’s why you must commit to enriching, refining and elevating your life so you can live fully and with a purpose before death comes knocking.

这就是为什么你必须致力于丰富、完善和提升你的生活，这样你才能在死亡来敲门之前充分、有目标地生活。

2:56:04 That’s why you must let go of the fear of death.

这就是为什么你必须放下对死亡的恐惧。

After all, death is inevitable and there’s no use worrying about when it will arrive.

毕竟，死亡是不可避免的，担心死亡何时到来是没有用的。

It will arrive when it’s meant to.

它会在该到达的时候到达。

What gives you hope about the future?

是什么让你对未来充满希望？

2:56:17 Not just of India, but all of human civilization, all of us humans here on earth?

不仅仅是印度，还有整个人类文明，地球上的所有人？

Well, I am an optimist at heart.

嗯，我本质上是一个乐观主义者。

2:56:27 Pessimism and negativity are simply not ingrained in my mindset.

悲观主义和消极情绪根本就没有在我的思维中根深蒂固。

They don’t align with the way I think.

他们与我的想法不一致。

That’s why I always gravitate toward the bright side instead.

这就是为什么我总是倾向于光明的一面。

2:56:48 If we take a moment to reflect on the history of mankind, we see the incredible crisis humans have overcome with resilience and strength.

如果我们花点时间回顾人类的历史，我们就会看到人类凭借韧性和力量克服了令人难以置信的危机。

We also see the major changes humanity has embraced to evolve with the times, and this continuous transformation has carried on for millennia.

我们也看到了人类与时俱进的重大变革，这种持续的变革已经持续了数千年。

2:57:10 In every era, it is in human nature to adapt to the ever-flowing current of change.

在每个时代，适应不断变化的潮流是人的本性。

And while our progress has gone through cycles of ups and downs, it is those people who can break free from the constraints of these historical cycles and outdated thinking patterns.

我们的进步虽然经历了起起落落，但能够摆脱这些历史周期和陈旧思维模式的束缚的，正是这些人。

2:57:35 It is they who can help humanity achieve extraordinary positive breakthroughs with an unshackled speed and grace transcending the limitations of the old way of doing things by embracing change.

正是他们能够以不受束缚的速度和优雅超越旧有的做事方式的局限性，拥抱变革，帮助人类实现非凡的积极突破。

In this moment, I was wondering if you could guide me perhaps through a Hindu prayer or meditation for a few moments.

此时此刻，我想知道你是否可以引导我进行一段印度教祈祷或冥想。

2:57:56 I learned, I’m trying to learn the Gayatri Mantra.

我了解到，我正在努力学习伽耶特黎真言。

In my fast I was trying to do the chants.

在我的禁食中，我试图唱诵。

Perhaps I could try chanting.

也许我可以尝试念诵。

You could tell me about the importance of this mantra and maybe others in your life, in your spirituality?

你能告诉我这个咒语以及其他咒语在你的生活、你的灵性中的重要性吗？

Should I try?

我应该尝试吗？

Yes, please.

是的，请。

[foreign language 02:58:34].

[外语02:58:34]。

2:58:34 How did I do?

我做得怎么样？

It’s okay?

没关系？

You did great.

你做得很好。

2:58:51 [foreign language 02:58:58].

[外语02:58:58]。

This mantra is dedicated to the radiant power of the sun and is considered a powerful tool for spiritual enlightenment.

这个咒语致力于太阳的辐射力量，被认为是精神启蒙的强大工具。

2:59:13 Many mantras in Hindu philosophy are deeply intertwined in some intricate and interesting ways with science and nature, each woven into different facets of life.

印度教哲学中的许多咒语以一些复杂而有趣的方式与科学和自然深深地交织在一起，每一个都融入了生活的不同方面。

Chanting mantras on a daily basis brings profound and lasting benefits.

每天念诵咒语可以带来深远而持久的利益。

In your own spirituality and your quiet moments, when you are with God, where does your mind go?

在你自己的灵性和安静的时刻，当你与神在一起时，你的心思去哪儿了？

2:59:41 What role do mantras play when you’re fasting, when you’re just alone with yourself?

当你禁食时，当你独处时，咒语扮演什么角色？

The word meditation has been overused to the point that it feels like a cliché.

冥想这个词已经被过度使用，以至于感觉像是陈词滥调。

2:59:57 In Indian languages, we usually refer to it as dhyan.

在印度语言中，我们通常将其称为 dhyan。

If I associate dhyan to meditation, it might seem burdensome to some.

如果我将禅定与冥想联系起来，对某些人来说可能会显得很麻烦。

One might think, “This is too difficult.

有人可能会想：“这太难了。

I’m not an enlightened being.” But it’s not rocket science.

我不是一个开悟者。”但这不是火箭科学。

It just means freeing yourself from distraction.

这只是意味着让自己摆脱干扰。

3:00:32 For example, even when you’re in class, your mind wanders to recess.

例如，即使你在上课，你的思绪也会飘到课间休息的地方。

All you think about is lunch, not the lesson.

你只想着午餐，而不是课程。

Meditation is simply being present in the moment.

冥想只是活在当下。

I recall an incident from my time living in the Himalayas.

我记得我住在喜马拉雅山时发生的一件事。

There I encountered this wise sage.

在那里我遇到了这位睿智的圣人。

He taught me a simple practical technique.

他教了我一个简单实用的技巧。

It was nothing spiritual.

这没什么精神上的。

3:01:06 There are several little streams in the Himalayas.

喜马拉雅山有几条小溪。

He positioned a large leaf to catch water from one of those streams and placed an upside down bowl below so water would drip rhythmically from the leaf onto the bowl.

他放置了一片大叶子来从其中一条溪流中收集水，并在下面放置一个倒置的碗，这样水就会有节奏地从叶子滴到碗上。

3:01:33 He asked me to focus only on the dripping water, ignoring all other sounds.

他让我只关注滴水的声音，忽略所有其他声音。

“Ignore the chirping birds and the soft rustle of the breeze.” He would place the leaf and I would meditate there for hours.

“忽略鸟儿的鸣叫和微风的轻柔沙沙声。”他会把叶子放在上面，我会在那里冥想几个小时。

I felt my mind slowly tuning into the rhythmic sounds of the water droplets falling onto the bowl like a melody guiding me into deep focus.

我感觉我的思绪慢慢地适应了水滴落在碗上的有节奏的声音，就像一首旋律引导我进入深度焦点。

3:02:09 And it’s not like I was chanting mantras or reciting God’s name.

这不像我在念诵咒语或背诵上帝的名字。

I like to call it the divine resonance.

我喜欢称之为神圣共鸣。

It was by tuning into that divine resonance that I learned the art of concentration.

正是通过调整到神圣的共鸣，我学会了专注的艺术。

This practice slowly evolved into meditation.

这种练习慢慢演变成冥想。

Sometimes you happen to stay at a fancy hotel, you get a lavish, luxurious room.

有时你碰巧住在一家高档酒店，你会得到一间豪华、豪华的房间。

The decor is impeccable and you have been wholeheartedly fasting, but there’s a dripping faucet in the bathroom.

装修无可挑剔，你已经全心全意地禁食了，但浴室里的水龙头在滴水。

That faint sound is enough to make a luxurious room feel worthless.

那微弱的声音，足以让豪华的房间变得不值一提。

3:02:57 At times, we realize the value of concentration in life’s inner journey.

有时，我们会意识到专注于生命内在旅程的价值。

We come to appreciate the difference a little bit of concentration can make.

我们逐渐认识到一点点专注就能带来的改变。

One very interesting concept comes to mind from our scriptures.

我们的经文中浮现出一个非常有趣的概念。

3:03:21 Since we spoke about life and death, I would like to quote a mantra, [foreign language 03:03:28].

既然谈到了生与死，我想引用一句口头禅，[外语03:03:28]。

In other words, all life is part of a complete circle, and this mantra emphasizes the path to achieve that completeness.

换句话说，所有的生命都是一个完整圆的一部分，而这个咒语强调了实现这个完整的道路。

3:03:44 Similarly, Hindus never focus solely on individual well-being.

同样，印度教徒从不只关注个人福祉。

[foreign language 03:03:52].

[外语03:03:52]。

In other words, we wish for the well-being and prosperity of all.

换句话说，我们希望所有人都幸福和繁荣。

[foreign language 03:04:00].

[外语03:04:00]。

This mantra encompasses the idea of universal well-being and prosperity.

这个口号包含了普遍福祉和繁荣的理念。

3:04:11 And you know how this mantra ends?

你知道这句咒语是如何结束的吗？

[foreign language 03:04:13].

[外语03:04:13]。

Every Hindu mantra ends on the same note.

每个印度教咒语都以同一个音符结尾。

Peace, peace, peace.

和平，和平，和平。

These ancient and powerful rituals born in India have emerged from thousands of years of the spiritual practice of sages.

这些诞生于印度的古老而强大的仪式是经过圣人们数千年的精神实践而产生的。

They connect us to the essence of life.

它们将我们与生命的本质联系起来。

[foreign language 03:04:40].

[外语03:04:40]。

3:04:40 Thank you for this honor.

感谢您给予这一荣誉。

Thank you for this incredible conversation.

感谢你们进行了这次令人难以置信的对话。

Thank you for welcoming me to India, and I can’t wait to break the fast with some Indian food tomorrow.

谢谢你们欢迎我来到印度，我迫不及待地想明天吃一些印度食物来开斋。

Thank you so much, Prime Minister.

非常感谢您，总理。

This was an honor.

这是一种荣幸。

I am thankful for the opportunity to have this conversation with you.

我很感谢有机会与您进行这次对话。

3:04:56 After fasting for two days I recommend you ease into eating slowly and I hope you reap great benefits from this fasting experience.

禁食两天后，我建议您慢慢吃东西，我希望您从这次禁食经历中获得巨大的好处。

3:05:11 I’ve explored several new realms of thought for the first time ever with you today.

今天我第一次和你们一起探索了几个新的思想领域。

I had long kept those thoughts tucked away within myself, but today you brought those thoughts to light.

我长期以来一直把这些想法隐藏在自己内心，但今天你把这些想法暴露了出来。

I hope [inaudible 03:05:30].

我希望 [听不清 03:05:30]。

Thank you.

谢谢。

I hope your viewers may enjoy this.

我希望您的观众会喜欢这个。

3:05:30 It was a great pleasure speaking with you.

很高兴与您交谈。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

3:05:38 Thank you for listening to this conversation with Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

感谢您收听与纳伦德拉·莫迪总理的对话。

And now, let me ask you some questions and try reflect on and articulate some things I’ve been thinking about.

现在，让我问你们一些问题，并尝试反思并阐明我一直在思考的一些事情。

If you would like to submit questions or get in touch with me for whatever reason, go to lexfridman.com/contact.

如果您想提交问题或出于任何原因与我联系，请访问 lexfridman.com/contact。

3:05:58 First, let me give a shout out to the amazing team around the Prime Minister.

首先，让我向总理周围的出色团队表示赞扬。

Everyone was super kind, excellent at what they do, efficient, great communication, and just great people all around.

每个人都非常友善，擅长自己的工作，高效，沟通良好，周围都是很棒的人。

3:06:13 And since I spoke English and Prime Minister Modi spoke Hindi, I have to comment on the interpreter who was doing simultaneous interpreting for both of us.

由于我说英语，而莫迪总理说印地语，我必须评论一下为我们俩做同声传译的翻译。

She was absolutely amazing.

她真是太棒了。

I can’t sing her enough praises.

我对她赞不绝口。

From the equipment used to the quality of the translation, to just the human touch of it all.

从所使用的设备到翻译质量，再到人性化的触感。

3:06:36 And in general, my travels around Delhi and India revealed to me some early glimpses of what felt like another world, almost like another planet, different culturally from anything I’ve experienced before.

总的来说，我在德里和印度的旅行让我初步看到了另一个世界，几乎就像另一个星球，文化上与我以前经历过的任何事情都不同。

A chaos of human interactions, out there, big dynamic personalities and characters.

人类互动混乱，充满活力的个性和角色。

3:06:58 Obviously, India’s composed of many distinct subcultures and Delhi represents just one slice.

显然，印度由许多不同的亚文化组成，而德里仅代表其中一小部分。

Much like neither New York or Texas or Iowa alone represent America.

就像纽约、德克萨斯州或爱荷华州都不能单独代表美国一样。

They’re all different flavors of America.

它们都是美国的不同风味。

3:07:13 On my visit, I walked around and rode rickshaws everywhere, just aimlessly wandering the streets, looking to talk to people about life.

去的时候，我到处走走，骑着黄包车，漫无目的地在街上闲逛，想和人们聊聊生活。

Of course, like many places on earth, there are always some people, especially those that have something to sell, who will at first see me as a tourist, a foreign traveler, one with some money to spend.

当然，就像地球上的许多地方一样，总有一些人，尤其是那些有东西可卖的人，一开始会把我视为一个游客，一个外国旅行者，一个有钱可花的人。

3:07:36 Like always, I avoided such shallow interactions and went straight past the small talk to the meaningful conversations.

像往常一样，我避免了这种肤浅的互动，直接从闲聊转向有意义的对话。

Shooting the shit about what they love, what they fear, what kind of hardship and triumph they’ve experienced in their lives.

拍摄他们所爱的东西，他们害怕的东西，他们在生活中经历过什么样的困难和胜利。

3:07:52 I think the cool thing about people anywhere on earth is they quickly do see the real you past the facades that strangers put up for each other, if you’re vulnerable and honest enough to let them.

我认为地球上任何地方的人们最酷的一点是，如果你足够脆弱和诚实，他们很快就能透过陌生人为彼此搭建的假象看到真实的你。

And I tried to do just that and I should say that for the most part, everyone was super kind in the genuine human way.

我试图做到这一点，我应该说，在大多数情况下，每个人都以真正的人类方式超级友善。

3:08:17 Even when they didn’t speak English, it was always easy to understand.

即使他们不会说英语，也总是很容易理解。

Probably more than any other peoples I’ve interacted with in India, people’s eyes, faces, body language, all communicate a lot of information, a lot of emotion, not reserved at all.

可能比我在印度接触过的任何其他民族都要多，人们的眼睛、面孔、肢体语言，都传达了很多信息、很多情感，一点也不保留。

3:08:33 When I traveled through Eastern Europe, for example, in contrast, reading a person is much tougher.

相比之下，当我游历东欧时，读懂一个人就困难得多。

The meme does have some truth to it.

这个模因确实有一定道理。

There’s often a protective layer between the heart of the person and the outside world.

人的内心和外界之间通常有一层保护层。

In India, it’s all there on full display.

在印度，这一切都得到了充分展示。

So I had a lot of epic conversations and interactions as I walked around Delhi for a couple of weeks.

因此，当我在德里漫步几周时，我进行了很多精彩的对话和互动。

3:08:58 In general, on the topic of reading people, I do believe the eyes can often say more than words can.

总的来说，在读人这个话题上，我确实相信眼睛往往比言语更能表达。

We humans are a fascinating bunch.

我们人类是一群迷人的人。

There really is a deep turbulent ocean behind the surface waves we show the world.

在我们向世界展示的表面波浪后面确实存在着一片深邃的汹涌海洋。

In some sense, what I try to do in conversations, on and off the mic, is to get to that depth.

从某种意义上说，我在对话中尝试做的就是达到那种深度，无论是在麦克风上还是在麦克风外。

3:09:20 Anyway, the few weeks I spent in India were a magical experience.

不管怎样，我在印度度过的几周是一次神奇的经历。

Traffic alone was a wild time, like the world’s most difficult test for self-driving cars.

交通本身就是一段疯狂的时光，就像世界上最困难的自动驾驶汽车测试一样。

3:09:32 It reminded me of watching nature documentary videos of swarms of fish when it’s thousands of them swimming around at insane speeds, seemingly in complete chaos.

这让我想起了观看自然纪录片的视频，里面有成群的鱼，成千上万的鱼以疯狂的速度游来游去，看起来完全混乱。

And yet when looking at the big picture of it it all works like a perfectly tuned orchestra.

然而，从整体来看，它就像一支完美调音的管弦乐队。

3:09:52 I will, most certainly, travel around India with my friend Paul Rosalie in the near future, maybe with some other friends all around from the north of India to the south.

毫无疑问，在不久的将来，我会和我的朋友保罗·罗莎莉一起环游印度，也许还会和从印度北部到南部各地的其他朋友一起旅行。

3:10:04 Now, allow me to also comment about one of the books that first drew me toward India and to its deep history of philosophical and spiritual traditions.

现在，请允许我评论一下首先吸引我走向印度及其深厚的哲学和精神传统历史的一本书。

The book is Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse.

这本书是赫尔曼·黑塞的《悉达多》。

3:10:19 I first read most of Hesse’s major work as a teenager, but then reread them again through the years.

我在青少年时期第一次阅读了黑塞的大部分主要著作，但多年来我又重新阅读了它们。

It first found me, Siddhartha, when I was immersed in a very different kind of literature of Dostoevsky, Camus, Kafka, Orwell, Hemingway, Kerouac, Steinbeck and so on.

它第一次找到了我，悉达多，当时我沉浸在陀思妥耶夫斯基、加缪、卡夫卡、奥威尔、海明威、凯鲁亚克、斯坦贝克等人的一种非常不同的文学中。

Many of these explore the same human condition that puzzled me when I was a young man and still puzzles me today, even more so.

其中许多都探讨了同样的人类状况，这些状况在我年轻时令我困惑，至今仍然让我困惑，甚至更是如此。

3:10:49 But Siddhartha was my introduction to the Eastern way of looking at these puzzles.

但悉达多让我了解了用东方的方式看待这些谜题。

It was written by Hermann Hesse.

它的作者是赫尔曼·黑塞。

And by the way, please allow me this pronunciation of his last name.

顺便说一句，请允许我听听他姓氏的发音。

I’ve heard some people say Hesse, but my whole life I’ve always said Hesse.

我听过有人说黑塞，但我一生都说黑塞。

3:11:04 So, anyway, it was written by Hermann Hesse, a German-Swiss Nobel Prize winning writer during one of the darkest periods of his own life.

所以，无论如何，这本书是由德裔瑞士诺贝尔文学奖获得者赫尔曼·黑塞（Hermann Hesse）在他一生中最黑暗的时期之一写成的。

His marriage was failing, World War I has shattered his pacifist ideals and he suffered from debilitating headaches, insomnia, and depression.

他的婚姻失败了，第一次世界大战粉碎了他的和平主义理想，他饱受头痛、失眠和抑郁之苦。

3:11:22 During this period, he began psychoanalysis with Carl Jung, which, in part, led him to explore Eastern philosophies as a way to heal his fractured psyche.

在此期间，他开始跟随卡尔·荣格进行精神分析，这在一定程度上引导他探索东方哲学，以此来治愈他破碎的心灵。

Hesse immersed himself in translations of ancient Hindu and Buddhist texts studying the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita.

黑塞沉浸在古代印度教和佛教文本的翻译中，研究《奥义书》和《薄伽梵歌》。

3:11:42 And so, the writing of Siddhartha was in itself, for him, a journey that paralleled that of the main character in the book.

因此，对悉达多来说，写作本身就是一段与书中主角相似的旅程。

Hesse started writing the book in 1919 and finished three years later experiencing an extensive psychological crisis in the middle.

黑塞于 1919 年开始写这本书，三年后完成，中间经历了广泛的心理危机。

The book follows Siddhartha, a young man in ancient India, as he leaves behind wealth and comfort to search for meaning.

这本书讲述了古印度的年轻人悉达多抛下财富和舒适去寻找意义的故事。

You can feel his personal struggle in every page.

你可以在每一页中感受到他个人的奋斗。

Siddhartha’s restlessness, his dissatisfaction with conventional wisdom, his need to find truth, the direct experience.

悉达多的焦躁不安，他对传统智慧的不满，他需要寻找真理和直接经验。

3:12:20 Again, the book wasn’t simply a philosophical exploration for Hesse, it was psychological survival.

再说一次，这本书对黑塞来说不仅仅是一次哲学探索，更是一种心理生存。

He was writing his way out of suffering and towards his own enlightenment.

他正在通过写作摆脱痛苦并走向自己的启蒙。

I won’t go into a deep analysis of the book here, but I will mention two key lessons I took away and carry with me to this day.

我不会在这里深入分析这本书，但我会提到我学到的两个重要的教训，并且至今仍随身携带。

3:12:41 First lesson comes from the scene in the book that to me is one of the great scenes in all of literature.

第一个教训来自书中的场景，对我来说，这是所有文学中最伟大的场景之一。

Siddhartha is sitting by a river just listening, and in that river he hears all of life.

悉达多坐在河边聆听，在河里他听到了生命的全部。

All sounds, all voices, all of time, past, present, future, flowing together as one.

所有的声音、所有的声音、所有的时间、过去、现在、未来，都融为一体。

3:13:03 That scene gave me the experience and the notion that while in some grounded human sense, the linear arrow of time does exist.

那个场景给了我这样的体验和观念：虽然在某种扎根的人类意识中，时间的线性箭头确实存在。

In another sense, time is a kind of illusion that, in fact, everything exists simultaneously.

从另一种意义上说，时间是一种幻觉，事实上，一切都是同时存在的。

That our lives are both momentary and eternal.

我们的生命既是短暂的，又是永恒的。

It is hard to describe these ideas with words.

很难用语言来描述这些想法。

I think they must be experienced as personal revelations.

我认为它们必须作为个人启示来体验。

3:13:32 I’m reminded of the fish story that David Foster Wallace, another one of my favorite writers, described in a commencement speech 20 years ago.

我想起了我最喜欢的另一位作家大卫·福斯特·华莱士 20 年前在毕业典礼演讲中描述的鱼的故事。

The story goes, “Two young fish are swimming along when they encounter an older fish swimming the opposite way.

故事是这样的：“两条小鱼正在一起游，突然遇到一条向相反方向游的老鱼。

The older fish nods and says, ‘Morning boys, how’s the water?’ The young fish swim on, and eventually one turns to the other and asks, ‘What the hell is water?'”

老鱼点点头说：“早上好，孩子们，水怎么样？”小鱼继续游着，最后一条鱼转向另一条问：“水到底是什么？”

3:14:04 The illusion of the forward progress of time is water in this metaphor.

在这个比喻中，时间向前进步的幻象就是水。

As humans, we’re fully immersed in it, but enlightenment, in part, involves being able to step back and get a glimpse at another deeper perspective on reality where all things are inextricably interconnected across both time and space.

作为人类，我们完全沉浸在其中，但启蒙在某种程度上涉及能够退后一步，以另一种更深入的视角一睹现实，其中所有事物在时间和空间上都密不可分地相互关联。

3:14:28 Another key lesson from the novel that was especially formative to me as a young man was that one should not blindly follow others or learn about the world exclusively through books.

这本小说的另一个重要教训对我作为一个年轻人来说特别重要，那就是一个人不应该盲目跟随别人或仅仅通过书本来了解世界。

But rather forge your own path and thrust yourself into the world where the lessons of life can only be learned by experiencing them directly.

而是开辟自己的道路，将自己推向一个只能通过直接体验才能学到人生教训的世界。

3:14:49 And every experience, both positive and negative, mistakes, suffering and even seemingly wasted time is all an essential part of growth.

每一次经历，无论是积极的还是消极的、错误、痛苦，甚至看似浪费的时间，都是成长的重要组成部分。

To this point, Hesse draws a distinction between knowledge and wisdom.

对此，黑塞对知识和智慧进行了区分。

Knowledge can be taught by others.

知识可以由他人传授。

Wisdom can only be gathered through experiencing the full mess of life yourself.

只有亲身经历生活的混乱，才能积累智慧。

3:15:13 In other words, the path to understanding isn’t through rejection of the world, but through complete immersion in it.

换句话说，理解的道路不是通过拒绝世界，而是通过完全沉浸在其中。

Those are my early steps in seeing the world through the lens of Eastern philosophy.

这些是我通过东方哲学的视角看世界的早期步骤。

But many of Hesse’s books had an impact on me.

但黑塞的很多书都对我产生了影响。

I would recommend to read Demian, when you are younger, Steppenwolf, when you are older, Siddhartha throughout your life, especially in moments of crisis, and The Glass Bead Game if you want to take on Hesse’s magnum opus, that rigorously explores the ways the human mind and human civilization can engage in the pursuit of knowledge, wisdom, and meaning.

我建议你读《德米安》，当你年轻的时候；《荒原狼》，当你年老的时候；悉达多一生，尤其是在危机时刻；如果你想读黑塞的巨著，我建议你读《玻璃珠游戏》，该书严格探索了人类思想和人类文明如何追求知识、智慧和意义。

3:15:55 But Siddhartha is the only one I’ve returned to more than twice.

但悉达多是我唯一回过两次以上的人。

In my own life, when faced with a difficult situation, I often return to the moment in the book when Siddhartha is asked what skills he possesses, and his answer is simply, “I can think, I can wait, I can fast.”

在我自己的生活中，当面临困境时，我经常会想起书中的那一刻，当悉达多被问到他拥有什么技能时，他的回答很简单：“我可以思考，我可以等待，我可以禁食。”

3:16:15 Let me elaborate.

让我详细说明一下。

Indeed, for the first part, “I can think.” As Marcus Aurelius said, “The quality of your life is determined by the quality of your thoughts.” For the second part, “I can wait.” Patience and waiting often is indeed the optimal decision when facing a problem.

事实上，对于第一部分，“我可以思考”。正如马可·奥勒留所说：“你的生活质量取决于你的思想质量。”第二部分是“我可以等待”。面对问题时，耐心和等待往往确实是最佳的决定。

Time does bring clarity and depth of understanding.

时间确实会带来理解的清晰度和深度。

3:16:39 For the third part, “I can fast.” When needed, being able to live and flourish with less is a prerequisite of being free when the mind, the body, and society all are trying to put you in cages.

第三部分是“我可以禁食”。当思想、身体和社会都试图将你关在笼子里时，当需要时，能够以更少的资源生活和繁荣是获得自由的先决条件。

3:16:56 All right, friends, now sadly, our time together in this episode has come to a close.

好吧，朋友们，现在可悲的是，我们在这一集里一起度过的时光已经结束了。

As always, thank you for being here and thank you for your support through the years.

一如既往，感谢您来到这里，并感谢您多年来的支持。

3:17:08 Let me leave you with a few words from the Bhagavad Gita.

让我向你们介绍《薄伽梵歌》中的几句话。

“He who experiences the unity of life, sees his own self in all beings and all beings in his own self and looks unto everything with an impartial eye.” Thank you for listening.

“体验生命统一的人，在众生中看到自己，在自己中看到众生，并以公正的眼光看待一切。”感谢您的聆听。

I hope to see you next time.

我希望下次能见到你。