杰克·韦瑟福德：成吉思汗与蒙古帝国
Jack Weatherford: Genghis Khan and the Mongol Empire
人类学家杰克·韦瑟福德讲成吉思汗的崛起与蒙古帝国的治理，以及它对欧亚世界的长远影响。
成吉思汗一生打过的仗，没有一场是他自己认为可能输的。他赢下了每一场。而他麾下的骑兵从来没有超过十万人，最多的时候也就十一万。这支军队放在今天的美国，一个体育场就装得下。
这支军队打下了俄罗斯、中国、波斯、中亚、土耳其和朝鲜。历史上没有任何一股力量同时征服过这些地方，亚历山大没有做到，罗马没有做到，以后大概也不会有人做到。
而统领这支军队的人，九岁那年失去了父亲，被自己的部落丢在草原上等死，后来被人戴上木枷当作奴隶，还亲手射杀了自己的异母哥哥。
故事从一场抢婚开始
杰克·韦瑟福德（Jack Weatherford）是研究蒙古帝国的人类学家。写《成吉思汗与今日世界之形成》的时候，他没有从成吉思汗的出生写起，而是把起点放在他父母相遇的那一天。
草原上只有女人赶车。男人骑马，女人也骑马，但帐篷（蒙古语叫 ger）、家当、牛羊都归女人所有，所以需要车来搬运。一辆车在路上走，就说明有个女人正在搬家。那天车上坐着的是诃额仑（Hö'elün），一个刚出嫁不久的新娘，丈夫骑着马跟在旁边。
山坡上有个叫也速该（Yesügei）的男人正在用猎鹰打猎。他往下看了一眼，看不清楚脸，但能看出是个年轻的新娘。他骑马回营地，叫上两个兄弟，三个人冲下山来。
新娘的丈夫先跑了。韦瑟福德不认为这是懦弱，他判断这几个人会追他，就把人引开。他绕了一大圈又回到车边。这段时间里诃额仑想清楚了。她告诉丈夫，你必须走。你留下他们会杀了你，然后带走我；你走，他们还是会带走我，但你能活下去，还能再找一个女人。找到以后，给她起我的名字，跟她在一起的时候记得我。
丈夫骑马走了，一边走一边回头，辫子在前胸后背之间甩来甩去。三个男人再次冲过来，这一次直奔马车。诃额仑一句话没说，直到丈夫翻过山脊、看不见了，她才开始哭喊。也速该的兄弟对她说了一句话：就算你把河水摇干，把山摇动，你也再见不到这个男人了。
他说得没错。这就是成吉思汗故事的起点，一场抢婚。
这件事的每一个细节都会反复回响，不只是贯穿成吉思汗的一生，还会变成世仇和纠纷，一直延续到很久以后。到今天，世界某些地方你仍然能说它还在。（杰克·韦瑟福德）
一个被遗忘过两次的孩子
帖木真出生的时候，父亲不在场，正在打塔塔儿人。在那场战役里他杀了两个塔塔儿人，其中一个叫帖木真兀格（Temujin-üge），从突厥语里来，意思是"铁一样的人"。他打完仗回来，有了个儿子，就给儿子起名叫帖木真。
母亲是被抢来的第二房妻子，不算合法妻子。名字来自父亲刚杀掉的那个人。韦瑟福德说，这个开局谈不上吉利。
后来发生的事一件比一件不吉利。他四五岁的时候，父母搬营地，把他忘了，丢在原地。太极兀（Taichiud）人发现了他，留了一段时间，最后才把他送回父母身边。
八岁那年，父亲带他出去找媳妇。按蒙古的规矩，找媳妇是把男孩送到女方家，由那家人养大、训练，然后才能娶他们的女儿。路上他停在了第一户遇到的人家，看到九岁的孛儿帖（Börte），按《蒙古秘史》的说法，两个人眼睛里都有火。父亲就把他留在了那家。回家的路上，父亲撞见一场酒宴，凑了过去。那些人是塔塔儿人，他藏了身份，但草原上人人都认得人人，他们认出了他，据说下了毒。他骑马回到家，几天之内死了。
于是帖木真住在别人家，家里来了个人接他回去，勉强熬过冬天。开春之后，氏族要搬到新营地，还要祭祖。仪式开始了，他们没有通知诃额仑。她来了，很生气。族里的老女人对她说：你是那个我们不必叫的人。你来了我们就喂你，但我们没有义务照顾你。
这句话是在告诉她，作为一个抢来的女人，在他们眼里她不算真正的妻子。信号很明确：搬营地的时候，不带她走。他们收拾好东西，把牲口都牵走了。那一刻她手里还剩一匹马。她跳上去，抓起丈夫的旗子，绕着人群跑。丈夫死后，旗子里住着他的灵魂，蒙古语叫 sulde。人们有点慌，就扎营等了一夜，等天黑了才走。这期间一个家族的朋友跑出来想拦他们，他们把他杀了。
帖木真哭了。他八岁，什么都做不了。
留在草原上的，是四个孩子，可能已经有五个，还有另一个妻子索济格尔（Sochigel）和她的两个孩子。冬天一来，他们本来应该全都死掉。
诃额仑把帽子拉下来盖住头，拿一根黑木棍，沿着河岸来回跑，挖草根填孩子们的肚子。她靠这个熬过了冬天。八九岁的帖木真也开始出去找吃的，能抓鱼，能做点小事。日子极其难熬，但每一个孩子她都保住了。
后来他被太极兀人抓走，戴上了木枷。木枷是一块木板，头和两只手都卡在里面，像牛脖子上的轭。每天晚上他被送到不同的帐篷里，由那户人家看管。有一晚营地里在庆祝，大部分人都在喝酒，他被留给了一个不太聪明的男孩。帖木真把木枷转过来当武器，抡起来砸在那个男孩头上，把他打晕了。
这是蒙古人的第一课：任何会动的东西都是武器。（杰克·韦瑟福德）
他趁夜逃跑，跳进河里躲着。木枷还在身上，整个人泡在水下，只能勉强换气，但天很黑，黑暗保护了他。追的人找了一圈，说算了，明天再来，他跑不掉。第二天他去找一户他判断可以信任的人家。那家人是被太极兀人掳来的俘虏，冒着极大的风险，把木枷锯开，扔进火里烧了，给了他食物让他逃。然后他还得再去找自己的家人。
韦瑟福德点出这件事的分量：也速该死后，抢走诃额仑的那几个兄弟按蒙古法律和习俗有义务娶她、照顾她和孩子，因为她的孩子算作这个氏族的孩子。他们全都没做，全都抛弃了她。
他很早就学到，你不能信任家人。（杰克·韦瑟福德）
十六岁那年的几个月
帖木真八岁时见过孛儿帖，她当时九岁。十六岁那年，她十七岁，和母亲一起来了。一个受尽了能想象到的各种屈辱的十六岁少年，忽然有了一个爱他的人，一个要和他一起生活、让他开心的人。这跟母亲到处挖草根喂五个孩子完全不一样。
这段日子只持续了几个月。
一天清晨，借住在帐篷里的一位老奶奶感觉到地面在震动，她知道有骑兵来了。母亲诃额仑做主。她把所有孩子弄上马，把小女儿帖木伦抱在自己怀里。她还剩一匹多余的马，但没有带上孛儿帖。她不知道来的是谁，但她知道这些人在夜里赶来，是冲着女人来的。这户被遗弃的人家刚刚有了一个媳妇，外面的人知道。
她把索济格尔留下了，把老奶奶留下了，把孛儿帖留下了。所有人挤上老奶奶的牛车，只有一头牛拉车，走不远。诃额仑判断得没错，袭击者全部盯着这辆车，想弄清里面有几个人、都是谁，她的孩子们趁机跑进山里去了。她救了一家人，代价是丢下了孛儿帖。
帖木真忽然意识到，他听了母亲的话，却失去了生命里最重要的东西。韦瑟福德认为这就是他一生的转折点。
故事从他母亲被抢开始，现在轮到他妻子被抢。他会怎么办？他该做什么？他能做什么？他是认命，还是出去另找一个妻子？他决定，没有孛儿帖，这日子不值得过。如果他必须死着把她抢回来，那就死着把她抢回来。（杰克·韦瑟福德）
他需要盟友。他去找了王汗（Wang Khan，又名脱斡邻勒 Toghrul），统治着蒙古中部的克烈部，地盘在今天的乌兰巴托一带。王汗曾经是他父亲的上级，他父亲替王汗打过仗。他带了一件礼物去，孛儿帖的母亲当初带来的那件貂皮大衣，送给王汗，请求出兵。王汗答应了，但说需要更多人马，让帖木真去找札木合。
札木合：唯一的安答
札木合（Jamukha）和帖木真同岁。他家冬天扎营的地方离诃额仑母子很近，两个男孩在冬天认识了。按蒙古的说法，他们来自同一个子宫：大约四五代之前有一个兀良哈女人被抢，被抢的时候已经怀孕，札木合是那个孩子的后代，帖木真是抢她的那个人的后代。
两个人都很早失去父亲，但札木合还失去了母亲。他在祖父家长大，祖父有好几个妻子，他身边全是老太太，没有兄弟姐妹。帖木真有一屋子兄弟姐妹。两个男孩在冰上玩，十岁或十一岁的时候决定结为安答（anda）。安答比朋友更重，是一辈子的承诺，要互相保护、互相帮忙。他们交换了狍子的踝骨。踝骨是玩游戏用的，也用来占卜。
韦瑟福德描述蒙古冬天的冰面：气温能到零下五十度，那时候是摄氏还是华氏已经不重要了。东西滑过冰面，像丝绸一样顺，能滑很远。把耳朵贴在冰上，会听到一种地球上没有的声音，像天使在冰下唱歌。
几年之后，他们又结了一次安答，这次年纪大一点，有了弓箭，就交换箭。文本记得很清楚：札木合从一头两岁的小牛身上取下角，削细，钻了个孔，做成响箭。响箭有好几种用途，可以发信号，也可以在打猎时把猎物往反方向赶。所以这两个男孩交换过狍子踝骨，也交换过响箭。
王汗让札木合带兵一起去。三路人马出发，王汗自己没去，他太老了。札木合带自己的人，帖木真只有他的兄弟。他们去色楞格河上游找蔑儿乞人，那条河往北流进西伯利亚，最后进贝加尔湖。
札木合在这一段里已经显出性子急。他发表了一通长篇演讲，说要把蔑儿乞人怎么样：从帐篷顶上的天窗跳进去，男人女人孩子全杀，把这个族群永远抹掉。他对王汗的人也不客气，人家来晚了，他当众训话：我们是蒙古人，我们许下诺言就是永久的承诺，下雨下雪下冰雹都一样，必须准时到。他在教训自己的上级。韦瑟福德对他的评价是：攻击性很强，但确实帮得上忙。
他们夜袭蔑儿乞营地。有几个蔑儿乞男人在外面猎貂，跑回来报信，营地里的人赶紧准备逃。孛儿帖不知道来的是谁，她不想再被抢一次。她和老奶奶、索济格尔被装上车准备走。那天晚上是满月，能看清东西。帖木真进来以后没怎么管战斗，一直在找她，喊她的名字。她听见了，知道是谁，从车上跳下来跑过去，两个人抱在一起。他说，这就是目的，这就是我们来这里的原因，别的什么都不需要。
这是帖木真的第一场真正的军事行动。
杀兄与家法
在救回孛儿帖之前，他还杀了一个人：异母哥哥别克帖儿（Behter）。这件事只记录在《蒙古秘史》里，波斯编年史、中国编年史都不知道，直到《秘史》被破译出版才为人所知。
别克帖儿是索济格尔的大儿子。在蒙古社会里，哥哥对弟弟妹妹有绝对权威，弟弟要用专门的代词 ta 称呼他，他用 chi 称呼弟弟，他说的话就是命令。父亲不在的时候，他就是父亲。而且按习俗，一个男人死了，如果兄弟没有娶他的寡妇，那么他另一个妻子生的儿子长大以后，有可能娶父亲的遗孀。也就是说，别克帖儿成年之后有可能娶诃额仑。
韦瑟福德说，他不确定这件事有没有发生，但他认为要么发生了，要么帖木真在阻止它发生。哥哥已经够糟了，再加上继父这一层，帖木真受不了。别克帖儿已经在支使他，比如拿走他抓到的鱼或鸟，按蒙古的等级秩序这是完全允许的。
记录里只写了一次抢鱼，但韦瑟福德认为发生过很多次。真正的原因是那些没写出来的紧张关系。帖木真和弟弟合撒儿（Qasar）用箭射死了别克帖儿。
事后最有意思的是各人的反应。索济格尔一句话都没有，她和她的另一个儿子别勒古台（Belgutei）继续留在这个家里，没有离开。大发雷霆的是诃额仑。她冲着帖木真骂了长长的一通，说他这辈子除了自己的影子不会再有人陪着，说他比所有能想出来的坏东西都坏。而索济格尔，死者的母亲，记录里什么都没有。
别勒古台后来跟着帖木真去救孛儿帖，而且一辈子忠于他。
他有能力去做任何需要做的事，来解决他认定的问题。别克帖儿是个问题，他在很小的年纪就把这个问题解决了。（杰克·韦瑟福德）
孛儿帖、札木合与一次决裂
救回孛儿帖之后，帖木真和札木合重新立了安答的誓约。这一次是当着整个氏族的面，更正式。札木合解下一条金腰带系在帖木真身上，那条腰带是之前从蔑儿乞人那里弄来的。帖木真回赠他一匹从来没生过驹的母马，这匹马额头前面长了一个小突起，他们叫它角。
腰带对蒙古男人来说是男子气概的标志。女人在当时被称为"没有腰带的人"，蒙古语 busgui，这个词今天还在用。
那天晚上，按《秘史》的说法，他们睡在同一张毯子下面，跟其他人分开，两个人在一起很高兴。
然后孛儿帖生了孩子，取名术赤（Jochi），意思是"客人"。有人说这名字是因为孩子其实是蔑儿乞人的，有人说是因为他当时生在札木合的地盘上，算个客人。札木合的祖先也是被抢来的孕妇生的，名字叫"外人"，札木合的氏族就因此叫札答兰（Jadaran）。
韦瑟福德强调，成吉思汗一辈子护着这个孩子。后来他自己的儿子们造反，管术赤叫"蔑儿乞野种"，他把妻子护得极凶：
你们当时不在场。你们不知道谁爱过谁，谁没爱过。你们没看见天在转，没看见星星在落，没看见大地翻过来。你们不知道当时发生了什么。如果我说他是我的儿子，他就是我的儿子。你们凭什么说不是？你们是从同一个温暖的子宫里出来的，如果你们的母亲能听见你们说的话，她那温暖的子宫会变成冰冷的石头。（杰克·韦瑟福德）
孩子出生后不久，帖木真和札木合分开了。是孛儿帖催的。她说，他太压你了，太支使你了，你得自由，我们得走。帖木真爱妻子超过一切，连夜带着人走了，当然也带走了孩子。
两个人都没说过要解除安答。他们只是分开了。
从帖木真到成吉思汗
草原上最有权势的是王汗，统治着蒙古中部的克烈部。札木合忠于他，帖木真一开始也忠于他，只是打不同的战役，所以有段时间他们没有互相打。
帖木真替王汗打了很多胜仗，还因此得到了"王"这个称号，来自中文，意思是王子或国王。王汗从金朝那里拿到这个称号，是因为他对塔塔儿人的战功。
帖木真越来越强。他想让自己的儿子娶王汗的女儿，王汗说不。王汗自己的儿子桑昆（Senggum）对父亲说：不行不行，我们不跟那些下等人通婚，他们是蒙古人，跟我们不一样，我们是克烈人。
于是战争，或者说世仇，开始了。帖木真往东逃到很远的地方，一个叫班朱尼河（Baljuna）的地方。这时候札木合站在他的领主王汗一边作战。两个人没有正面交手，但他们的军队开始互相打。
韦瑟福德说，很难知道他们当时各自在想什么。后来他们的关系以一种不幸的方式了结时，两个人都说自己从来没有真正破坏安答，因为他们从来没有直接伤害过对方。
帖木真最终打败了王汗，控制了蒙古中部。他自己的部众在黑心山、蓝湖边上给了他一个称号：成吉思汗。这不是任何人用过的称号，是新造出来的。它听起来接近 tengiz，意思是海。
蒙古人喜欢一语多义，一个词的意思越多，力量越大。在蒙古语里它听起来像"强硬"，在突厥语里听起来像"海"。当时的蔑儿乞人大多是突厥人。韦瑟福德举了今天的例子：二十年前蒙古人流行给女孩起名叫 Misheel，这是法语名字、英语名字，在蒙古语里意思是微笑，一个名字同时有三大语言和三大文明的力量。
札木合这时转投西边的乃蛮部，成了乃蛮人的门客。成吉思汗攻打乃蛮的时候，札木合又抛弃了乃蛮。他告诉乃蛮人：这些人长着钢一样的嘴，会活吃人。乃蛮首领太阳汗被吓到了，很快也被打败。
札木合带着少数札答兰人跑了。他想当草原的大汗，虽然追随者很少，他还是用了"菊儿汗"这个古老而重要的称号。但他自己的人反了他，把他抓起来，想送给成吉思汗领赏。成吉思汗确实立刻给了赏，把他们全杀了，因为他们背叛了自己的首领，而那个首领是他的安答。
据说成吉思汗对他说：回来吧，救我，站在我身边，保护我，做我的影子，做我一生的护卫。札木合说，我在我的人跟你打仗的时候背叛了你，你永远会知道这件事，你永远不会完全信任我。我会像你衣领下面的一只虱子，像你衣襟上的一根刺。他说，杀了我，但不要流我的血。
不流血而死是蒙古人最尊贵的死法。血里有一部分灵魂，流血而死等于在死之前就失去了灵魂。通常的做法是用毡子把人裹起来，打死或者用马踩死。成吉思汗没有亲自动手，但他下了令。之后他让人把札木合的遗体送到高处埋葬，地点在今天的图瓦一带。札木合说过，他会永远做他和他的族人的守护者。
韦瑟福德认为，这段关系在正面和负面两个意义上，都是他成年后除孛儿帖之外最重要的关系。孛儿帖从不顺从，但永远站在他这一边。札木合在韦瑟福德看来太急躁了，但他临终前解释过自己：我们都失去了父亲，但我还失去了母亲。你有一个坚强的母亲把你养大，我没有。你有孛儿帖，一个非常坚强的妻子帮你，我的妻子只会唠叨。
他从不积累财富
成吉思汗一辈子不积累财物。韦瑟福德常想那条金腰带去哪了，它从故事里消失了，一条金腰带不会就那么消失。帖木真从来对物质没有兴趣。作为统治者，他可以说是世界上最富有的人，因为最多的财富流经他手，但他永远穿得简单，永远住在帐篷里。
我吃我士兵吃的东西，我穿我士兵穿的衣服，我过我士兵过的生活。我们是一样的。（杰克·韦瑟福德引成吉思汗）
他不允许任何人写他，不允许任何人画他的像、给他立雕像，不允许为他建宫殿、陵墓、神庙，连一块最简单的墓碑都不行。第一幅画像出现在 1278 年，那时他已经死了五十一年。第一座雕像要等到二十一世纪。
韦瑟福德说，很难解释他是怎么坚持下来的。人太容易被权力腐蚀了，但他一直保持着对身边人的那种态度。他的核心圈子、他的护卫、军队的中军，就是他的家人。他有四个妻子，这才是重要的。
《蒙古秘史》是怎么留下来的
成吉思汗活着的时候不允许写关于他自己的东西。他唯一允许写下来的是法律，写在蓝皮本子里，别的一概不许。他下令为蒙古人发明文字，借用回鹘字母，还下令让孩子们学读写，有一些学了，大部分没有。
他有一个习惯：每次战役都收养一个孤儿。那个孩子会成为蒙古国和他家庭的正式成员，由诃额仑抚养。所以她后来有一个满是不同部落男孩的家，这些人后来都成了政府里的高官。其中一个是塔塔儿男孩，当兵不太行，但他会读写，是最好的一个。他后来被成吉思汗任命为最高法官，名字叫失吉忽秃忽（Shigi Qutuqu）。
成吉思汗死后，失吉忽秃忽意识到这些东西会失传。这是发生过的大事。于是他编纂了这部作品，时间在鼠年，也就是 1228 年，成吉思汗死于 1227 年。它开头是灰蓝狼和淡黄鹿的婚姻。很多人说这是神话、是图腾，蒙古人听了会反问：他叫灰蓝狼，她叫淡黄鹿，他们结婚了。蒙古人在这件事上很实在，他们认为这是真实的人。
这本书之所以私密，是因为失吉忽秃忽在场。他跟这些人睡在同一个帐篷里，所以他能记录孛儿帖从床上坐起来对丈夫说，你得做这个，你不能再做那个。这是一份非常私密的文件，只给家族看，所以他们要维持成吉思汗不许对外发布家族信息的禁令。它保密了很长时间，久到学者开始认为它不存在。
十九世纪，一个在中国工作的俄国学者发现了一份手稿。整份文件全是汉字，但按中文读完全不通。他意识到，如果读出声来，对蒙古人来说就通了。这是用汉字记录蒙古语读音的密码。
用汉字记音总会有些地方出问题，比如不确定某个名字到底是什么。有些波斯文献已经吸收了其中一部分，这对韦瑟福德很有帮助。这份文件不是百分之百纯粹，有些地方被动过，有些词被改过。比如有时候称帖木真为成吉思汗，可他当时还不是汗；有时候称他为汗，意思是首领，有时候是汗，意思是皇帝，在蒙古语里差别很大。但韦瑟福德对这份文件有极大的信任。
它直到 1982 年才有英文版。哈佛大学的弗朗西斯·伍德曼·克利夫斯（Francis Woodman Cleaves）在五十年代就译好了，跟出版社有纠纷，拖了近三十年。原本计划出两卷，第一卷是译文，第二卷是注释，第二卷丢了，至今没找到。中国人在边上也加过注释，因为他们有很多地方看不懂，而且他们不认同某些内容，比如蒙古女人常常嫁给继子，这跟儒家伦理完全不符，所以他们在页边加注，试图纠正和解释。
韦瑟福德把《秘史》当作唯一的指导文件，其他一切材料只用来对照、补白、补充信息。他还专门去蒙古，走遍书中写到的那些地方，因为书写得非常精确，为的是去感受它。
你的历史不在书里。历史不在档案里，甚至不在图书馆里，尽管我的工作需要它们。历史活在人的身上，活在人的记忆和文化里。（杰克·韦瑟福德）
他举了一个例子。孛儿帖被抢发生在哪个季节，他本来不知道，这关系到后来一系列事件的时间推算。他跟那个山谷里的牧民聊天，他们说，这很明白，是冬天。他问，你在哪本书上看到的？对方说，不是，老奶奶当时在地上，她能感觉到地面的震动。你看现在是夏天，你趴在地上什么都感觉不到，地是软的。一个坐在马边的牧民，把他找了很久的关键信息给补上了。
一片没有变过的土地
韦瑟福德去过成吉思汗征服过的那些中亚城市，学不到什么。他待的时间不长，没有认同感，感受不到东西。但在蒙古，他去那些地方，知道成吉思汗如果今天回来，会认得出自己在哪。没有路，没有路牌，没有建筑，没有电线，什么都没有。闻空气，感受它，看这里有什么动物、长什么植物，你就开始理解他当时是怎么想的。然后你会发现，啊，我知道他们是从哪个方向来的，唯一可能的方向就是那个方向。他的生活在眼前展开，而文本里没有风景，没有道具。
蒙古是一片基本没变过的土地。伦敦、莫斯科、伊斯坦布尔全变了，蒙古还是蒙古。它是世界上面积最大、人口最少的国家之一，今天大约三百三十万人，散居各处，跟环境的关系极其亲密。
草原的第一感觉是往哪个方向都能看到永远。没有建筑，没有东西挡住视线，有点像在海上。风通常都在吹，从西伯利亚来，从北极来，扫过蒙古，有时候冷得要命，但永远是新鲜的。然后是草的味道。由于地理位置特殊，某片区域可能今年有草，明年干旱，另一片有草，所以你不能总是指望某个地方。没有草就是沙尘，沙尘的味道不太好闻，但那也是这个国家的一部分。
水大多是纯净的。这个世纪因为采矿，有些地方被污染了。蒙古人定义自己的世界靠的是水。成吉思汗不给儿子们土地去统治，他给他们水和人。他们不把大地叫土地，他们叫它 dalai，海洋。关于水的规矩很严：不能在水边扎营，因为会污染水，营地要退到大约一公里外；把牲口牵到河边喝水，喝完就带走；不在河里洗澡，把水取出来在远离河的地方洗。住在河边也是危险的，夏天有山洪，营地就在水边的话会被冲走。
人和马分不开
韦瑟福德写过一句话，被编辑删了，因为觉得是侮辱：蒙古人和马住在一起，每一次肌肉的抽动他们都互相知道，他们闻起来是一样的。他本意不是侮辱，他们确实有那种深层的亲密，马靠气味认出自己的主人。
这一点对成吉思汗也很实用。他们用自己马的鬃毛做旗子，叫 sulde。战场上马会回到源头，因为它们认得自己旗子的气味，那是它们自己马群的其他成员。
蒙古语里关于马的颜色的词，韦瑟福德一个都没掌握全。他在乡下遇到蒙古人说要学英语，互相教词。他指着马问，什么颜色？棕色。再指一匹，棕色。对方说，你刚才说这个是棕色，那这个是什么颜色？他答不上来。他们的词区分颜色的均匀程度、质地的变化。英语里可以说黄棕、棕棕、黑，蒙古语里是更细的分法。而且按性别分，还按年龄分，母马还按有没有生育分。
几年前有个总统候选人用的竞选口号是"在无数快马的尘土中长大"。尘土本身很重要。蒙古人会把马身上的汗和土擦下来，抹到自己额头上，那是身体最神圣的地方，灵魂所在。
他们对马很严厉，训练得很充分，骑得也很狠，但马也是为此训练的。他们用很小的鞭子，只打马的臀部，绝不打别处。他们看到西方人用金属马刺伤马的肚子会感到惊恐。伤马的头是死罪，韦瑟福德没听说有人因此被处死，但马的头绝对不能碰。
有一个让他困惑的场景。他在一家人那里，那天在阉割要变成骟马的公马。那家有四五个男孩，只有一两个女孩。一个大约十一岁的男孩从马上摔下来，就在不远的地方，他倒在地上没起来。没有人动。所有人把注意力转开了。韦瑟福德想，我该说什么？有个孩子摔了，谁去把他弄回来。没有。
那个男孩拽着缰绳想爬回来，但上不了马。他的弟弟出去帮他，两个人进了帐篷坐下，母亲转过身去。
两周后，另一个为那达慕比赛训练的男孩，在一个靠近山的地方，马惊了，冲进林子，他被树撞下来，马跑进林子深处，男孩去追，迷路了。他十二岁，失踪两个星期，活了下来。韦瑟福德说他本人四十八小时就得死。
那个男孩白天暖的时候睡觉，夜里冷的时候走路，虽然是夏天，山里的夜也很冷。他整夜大声唱歌把狼赶走。他知道什么能吃，一直走，直到找到流动的水，然后顺着水往下走。他活下来了。
男孩从马上摔下来，他母亲不会过去，她知道。看着她儿子受苦大概也很难受，但她知道。（杰克·韦瑟福德）
韦瑟福德提到一个摔跤手的故事，那人叫卡里·科拉特（Cary Kolat），说他第一次见到真正心理上强硬的人，是去蒙古参加摔跤比赛。他们用冰水淋浴，其他摔跤手被水一激，脸上会有一点抽搐。蒙古人没有表情。冰水也好，别的苦也好，你对它练出硬度。
在蒙古，如果能有隐私，男人会在第一场大雪里脱光衣服在雪地里打滚，为即将到来的冬天做准备。韦瑟福德住的那个山谷，夏天有很多摔跤手来训练，水从山上下来非常冷，每天休息的时候他们就去，但从来不跳进水里，他们把水舀出来浇在自己身上。
一支会学习的军队
蒙古人、马和弓是一个完美的组合，是现代之前世界上最致命的武器。同步和时机、多年练出的技巧，都到了不可思议的程度。蒙古人从出生就在马上，三岁大概就能独自骑马。韦瑟福德 1990 年代第一次去蒙古的时候，赛马的骑手必须六岁以下，三岁的孩子就在外面比赛。那个年纪根本用不了马鞍，他们只是待在马上，马被训练好了做该做的事。
不只是一个人一匹马，是一个骑手配好几匹马，通常是五匹，上战场的时候带着。他们必须能射箭，保护牲口不受狼、狐狸，有些地方还有老虎的侵袭，也要防别人来抢。所以他们成了极好的弓箭手，用的复合弓比大多数定居民族的弓强得多。
这些都是大草原游牧民族的共性。更早的匈人就从蒙古出来，hun 就是蒙古语里"人"的意思。早期的突厥各部落也都从蒙古出来，他们都有类似的技能。
所以你有完美的武器，还需要完美的战略，需要协调、组织、运用。韦瑟福德说，他完全解释不了成吉思汗的天才之处就在这里。以前也有人很厉害，一些突厥首领，甚至阿提拉，但他们是靠魅力和戏剧性的领导力，战略上并不特别出色，他们靠能打。
成吉思汗的军队极其能打，而且规模很小。他最多也就十万人，顶多十一万。这是很小的规模。你要对抗中国，光军队就有几百万人，还不算全国人口；你要对抗俄罗斯、中东、波斯、阿富汗。你的整支军队必须像每一个骑手、每一张弓、每一匹马那样精细调校。这是武器，但军队本身成了超级武器，靠的是他如何组织它、使用它、以及他拼出来的战略。
全是骑兵，没有步兵，没有辎重队，早期没有后勤，没有工兵，工兵是很晚才加的。
他把军队按十进制组织，十人一队，然后百、千。最小单位叫 arban，十人小队。小队的头目有完全的控制权，但队员们知道他们要互相保护，必须带着每一个成员或者每一具遗体回来，不能丢下任何人。如果你服从长官的命令，你知道他也在为你冒生命危险，你知道你左右的兄弟也在为你冒生命危险。
每个人配五匹马，有弓，尽量多的箭，打完之后回收自己的箭，也回收敌人的箭。这在打俄罗斯时是个大优势，俄罗斯人用不了蒙古的箭，他们能搭上弓，但蒙古人能用俄罗斯的箭。
每个士兵还必须带针和线。针线可以缝破衣服，也可以缝皮子或者伤口。这支军队自带一切，后面没有辎重队，随身带的东西里包括针线。
他们还带干奶制品，叫 aaruul，干凝乳，能放好几年。吃的时候放进一个装水的皮囊里，骑一天马，一路晃荡，就变成浓稠的蛋白质。据说蒙古人可以三到五天不点火，食物够用。
军队分成左翼、右翼，或者叫东、西，蒙古语里"左"就是东，"右"就是西。中间是中军，是他自己的护卫和部队。通常还有前卫和后卫，有时候前卫会提前两年出发，清空土地，把人赶走、吓走，好给后面的大军留出草场。他们从不排成一条线一个跟一个地走，他们总是拉成长长的、展开的翼，每匹马走自己的路，但全部平行。
韦瑟福德特别提到他对下属的态度。失吉忽秃忽在阿富汗指挥过一场仗，打输了，这对蒙古人来说非常罕见。成吉思汗跟他一起去了战场，说，我们一起看看，你解释给我听你做了什么，然后我们讨论。他不会惩罚。别的国家将军打输了回来会被处死，成吉思汗知道每个将军都会尽全力，如果撤退，那很好，那是在保存蒙古人的命，他知道该怎么做，他尊重这个。
他还非常快地吸收任何他看到的新技术。定居民族的军队会陷在固定的思路里，这是我们做事的方式，我们把它做得更快一点、更大一点、更强一点，但思路不变。成吉思汗没有固定的思路。1206 年建国之后，1209 年左右他第一次遇到城墙，一个一辈子没见过墙的人，他见过的墙是帐篷的毡墙。
他看着周围的一切，看到他们有河，有各种渠道，一直在调水。对蒙古人来说，会动的东西都是潜在武器，不动的东西都是靶子。水会动，墙不动。他说，挖一条渠，把唐古特城的墙冲垮。他们做了，但不知道自己在做什么，堤不够高，从黄河来的水太多，反而把蒙古营地给淹了。好吧，发生了，我们学到教训，改进它。这成了蒙古人用了五十年的战术，一直到 1258 年攻陷巴格达。
这种看到东西、试一试、失败了换个更好的方法再试的能力，是核心。韦瑟福德说，我们都以为自己从错误中学习，然后呢？我们重复错误。这是人性的一部分。而他有真正的能力，首先是在他不懂的技术面前保持谦卑，明白自己不懂，但可以用自己的方式理解它。蒙古人一次又一次地把新东西拼在一起，用来对付敌人。
这个学习能力加上另一个革命性的想法：晋升应该基于能力。这两个东西互相喂养。从错误中学习、不断改进的人被提拔到有权力的位置，然后激励所有人这么做。每一个行动都按它的出色程度来评判，反复迭代就造出越来越强的军队。
这种能力延续了三代，造出一支不断扩张、不断改变战术和技术的军队。韦瑟福德说，他们后来在这件事上变差了，但成吉思汗是创新者，他在这件事上最强，他一生都在变得更好，用外国信息、外国技术、外国想法。
假撤退与心理战
蒙古人不像我们通常理解的勇敢士兵那样为荣誉而战，他们为胜利而战。撤退、保命，这里没有羞耻。成吉思汗本人从不打他认为可能输的仗，他赢下了每一场。他手下的将军未必，比如失吉忽秃忽，但他每一场都赢，因为撤退不丢人，不交战也不丢人。
但这也会变成战术。他们派一小队人进攻，蒙古人能在马上向前射，也能装作被打败转身，同时还能向后射，也就是帕提亚射术，在世界上不常见。蒙古人还能俯身从马脖子下面射，这样受到保护。
他们边来边射，边退边射。对面通常就会散开队形来追。他们想拿武器，想杀蒙古人。如果对面没有立刻散开，蒙古人会开始往外扔东西，从别处抢来的战利品、值钱的东西，士兵通常抵抗不了。于是他们追出来，四散奔跑，追到某个点，从两座山后面，蒙古大军出来把他们杀掉。
这个战术反复奏效。韦瑟福德说他一直在想，这些人怎么就不知道蒙古人在干什么？怎么就不知道？答案是人性，对方在撤退，你就想追。你不知道为什么，可能是动物本能。
再加上高速下包抄侧翼的能力。很多伟大的军事史家写过历史上的强大军队，蒙古人几乎不被写进去，也不被承认军事战术和战略上的天才。假撤退然后攻击侧翼，这套东西即使不是成吉思汗发明的，也是他完善的。
他们不喜欢路。他们经常从没人来过的方向来，对方毫无准备。最著名的例子大概是布哈拉（Bukhara），一座美丽古老的城市。他们穿过沙漠过来。从来没人从沙漠进攻过，人们看见尘土，以为是商队，根本不知道发生了什么。方向本身就是那次突袭的意外因素。
韦瑟福德认为，恐怖是他最大的武器之一。他刻意经营凶残的名声。他不让人写他，但他鼓励难民。每攻下一座城，他一定确保有大量难民跑到下一座城去，这会削弱对方，削弱食物供应，而且他们会用蒙古人有钢牙、吃小孩之类的可怕故事去恐吓别人。成吉思汗鼓励这么做。这是宣传，是精神层面的恐怖主义，用来削弱敌人。你听见了，或者你知道他们来了，你看见尘土，听见那么多马发出的轰鸣，感到大地在颤抖，那一定极其恐怖。
成吉思汗有一套精确的流程。先派使者去说明，如果投降，所有性命都能保住，可以继续做本行，只是统治者换成蒙古人，要交税，通常还是原来交的税，只是交给蒙古人。因为你只有十万人，你不可能留一支驻军，你要让当地人继续管理自己的城市和地区。他严格遵守这一点。在波斯北部，他的女婿脱忽察儿（Toquchar）违反了，抢投降百姓的东西，成吉思汗把他叫来，剥夺了他的职位，说下一座城你作为普通士兵先上。他在下一场战斗里死了。这就是法律。
如果城市抵抗而蒙古人赢了，他们不是杀所有人。他们杀掉所有领导者，因为他们认为精英没有好好服务；通常也杀掉军队，因为军队没法被收编。但他们看重所有手艺人，任何有技能的人，会做罐子、会打金属板、会织地毯、会翻译、会读写，每一个有技能的人都被留下。
所以打败仗之后的屠杀没有想象中那么严重。真正严重的是：你投降了，很多人确实投降了，你知道自己不会被伤害。蒙古人走了，几百英里外，忽然，忘了蒙古人吧。成吉思汗传话要他们送多少牛羊来帮忙。忘了蒙古人吧，他们离得远。不行。他回来了，他征服了那座城，他把所有人杀了。
最惨烈的屠杀发生在有协议然后被背叛的时候。韦瑟福德说，最糟的案例更多是在中东，伊朗和阿富汗一带。只有在阿富汗，屠杀的情绪有时候以不幸的方式失控。
他有一个很爱的孙子，那个孙子跟着他走，有他自己没有过的快乐童年。在阿富汗，他被派去征服巴米扬山谷，就是大佛所在的地方。波斯史料说，命运的拇指射出那支箭把他射倒了。他死了。
成吉思汗从来没有失去过一个家人，一个都没有。儿子、孙子，一个都没在战场上失去。现在失去了最宝贵的孙子，他的骄傲和喜悦。他把儿子的父亲叫来，没有公开宣布。儿子来了，不知道为什么被召见。成吉思汗说，你要向我保证，我告诉你这件事的时候你不哭不哀号，但你的儿子没有了。谁都不许哀号，不许哭，什么都不许。他说，让他们哭。他极其严厉地加在阿富汗人身上，屠杀持续了好几周，然后自己耗尽了。他意识到自己让情绪压过了实用，对这些人屠杀应该停止。他停了。
这是韦瑟福德所知的唯一一次他真正失控。这可以理解，但他的反应极其极端：我们不哭，我们不哀悼，他们去哭，他们去哀悼。
韦瑟福德补充说，他没有屠杀和平城镇里的人。发生的是人们以为的继承人被杀，他很可能就是继承人。他的死让很多人重新燃起希望，很多城市反叛。没有反叛的没有被杀。反叛的城市，他把他们全杀了。
四千万这个数字
有估计说成吉思汗和蒙古帝国造成了大约四千万人死亡，约占当时世界人口的百分之十。换算到今天的人口，相当于杀掉大约八亿人。
韦瑟福德说，数字本身很难处理。几百万人死了。对每一个失去亲人的家庭来说，那是全部的损失。数字是多少不重要，是巨大的损失。生命损失巨大，就像每一场战争一样。
我不认为我们应该用不同于历史上其他征服者、不同于今天打仗的其他国家（包括我们自己的国家）的标准来评判他。我们愿意让自己的国家做什么，就应该能理解成吉思汗或蒙古人为什么这么做。（杰克·韦瑟福德）
他说，今天的世界里，人们每天都在杀孩子、杀女人、杀平民。每一天。总是以某种名义，以和平的名义，以上帝的名义，以我们国家的名义。杀总有理由。美国肯定参与其中，提供炸弹炸人，入侵阿富汗，在伊拉克、叙利亚打仗。总是说，哦，但我们在捍卫民主。是啊，我们给阿富汗带去了很多民主，我们杀了很多很多人。
他甚至回溯到二战。他说，我们民主和自由的伟大时刻，我们把原子弹扔在广岛和长崎。那不是军事目标。我们没有对这个国家做任何战略上的事，除了通过杀女人和孩子来恐吓这个国家。这就是美国，这就是我们。他父亲打过那场战争，还打过越南、朝鲜。他说他父亲是个好美国人，这没有什么问题。
他说，他甚至不谴责美国，但他说，我们怎么能一边谴责某一群人做这件事，一边在自己身上原谅它？我们倾向于这么做。我们，尤其是对"野蛮人"，比如草原上的人，我们倾向于妖魔化他们。或者对我们的任何敌人，我们倾向于妖魔化他们。
丹·卡林的批评
韦瑟福德谈到丹·卡林（Dan Carlin）的《硬核历史》里关于蒙古的系列《可汗之怒》。卡林对韦瑟福德的作品表示尊重，但有点批评，认为他过分强调积极影响，没有给屠杀的残酷、战争的地狱留足够的篇幅。
韦瑟福德说，认罪，他有罪。卡林很聪明，他很尊重他，很喜欢他，他说得对。但那不是他想强调的东西。他不是要否认屠杀，不是要否认战争，但那在全世界都差不多，我们需要说多少关于墙怎么被破、这支部队怎么被打败？不，他想说的是之后发生的事。就像我们生命的故事开始得比我们出生早得多，我们生命的故事在之后还延续很久。
如果你有一百万人的民族，你要统治几亿人，中国、俄罗斯、中东，你不是靠战争做到的。你最初靠战争征服他们，但你不是靠战争统治他们。你必须提供他们想要的东西、喜欢的东西。（杰克·韦瑟福德）
贸易系统、邮政系统、宗教自由、女性权利、少数族群权利，这些是人们有反应的东西。世界从成吉思汗的生命中获益巨大。但我们只想谈征服那部分。好吧，那是二十年。它又延续了一百五十年。故事不只是征服。
韦瑟福德说，如果他的写作生涯里只做一件事，那就是让人认识到部落民族在世界历史中的重要性。我们倾向于把他们分成两类：要么是杀人和吃人的野蛮人，要么是受害者，我们应该同情他们，怀念他们的一切，也许戴上他们的珠子或者穿他们的衣服来表示我们多么同情他们的苦难。这就是部落民族的两个角色。
他想展示另一面。他们征服了，是的，他们是征服者，但他们也在世界历史上创造了伟大的东西。蒙古帝国真的是第一个现代帝国，成吉思汗是背后的天才，他创造了这样一个想法：可以有一个世界，有一套至高法律，但所有民族都可以遵循自己的法律。你可以信仰任何宗教，但最终你必须服从天空的伟大伦理。
韦瑟福德说，他环顾今天的世界，在他的有生之年，从罗斯福去世以后，他看不到多少愿景。他看到很多口号，很多空谈，政策文件。愿景在哪？总是我们要有和平，我们要有更好的生活，投我一票或者投我党一票，我们真的是为了人民。他们到底在说什么？那里没有愿景。
宗教自由：一个人的权利
历史上有些帝国和统治者对不同群体比较宽容。罗马在某种程度上对不同教派和宗教还算宽容，对基督徒不宽容，但还算可以。成吉思汗的做法不同。
他在蒙古之外的第一场战役是为了维吾尔人打的，他们住在中国西部。当时统治他们的是乃蛮王子屈出律（Kuchlug），太阳汗的儿子。屈出律逃到今天的吉尔吉斯斯坦一带，统治维吾尔人。乃蛮是基督徒部落，他改信了佛教。他的臣民是穆斯林，他取缔了伊斯兰教。于是维吾尔人派了一个代表团去见成吉思汗，请他来救他们。他派了一支分队去，把屈出律赶下台。屈出律往巴基斯坦方向逃，他们追上他，杀了他。
然后成吉思汗颁布了他为蒙古之外的人制定的第一条法律。在此之前都是部落法。他看到部落之间大多为女人打仗，所以禁止抢女人、禁止卖女人，减少了很多世仇。但他看到"文明"人经常为宗教打仗。他们不为女人打，他们为宗教打。于是他立了法。
宗教自由有很多种形式。一种是允许机构做它们想做的事，允许摩门教、天主教、犹太教、伊斯兰教各自在组织化的教会里做他们想做的事。他的法律不是这个。他的法律预设了这一点，允许了这一点，但他说，每个人都有权选择自己的宗教。没有人能阻止他们。没有人能强迫他们。这个想法，宗教属于个人选择，历史上从来没有人想到过，它属于个人。（杰克·韦瑟福德）
韦瑟福德说，这对他也是一种巨大的力量来源。他不说成吉思汗这么做是因为某种意识形态。就像他禁止抢女人不是因为意识形态。他不是通过研究道德正确的观念得出这些，他是通过实际生活经验得出的。他母亲被抢，他妻子被抢，他知道这是对所有伦理和道德的犯罪。他这么做是因为实际原因，因为它伤害人。
宗教也一样。他把这个权利给每个人，因为这是他们个人的权利，可以保护他们不受伤害。这给了他来自各种少数群体的巨大支持，他们涌向他。这是维吾尔穆斯林少数群体的努力，很多人因为这种宗教自由涌向他。
韦瑟福德还提到一个更实际的政治考虑：他认识到什叶派和逊尼派之间权力平衡的价值，两边都允许，权利平等，一方不压过另一方，基督徒和犹太人也是。这能防止社会分裂反对他或者联合起来反对他。他不认为这是他的主要理由，但他确实意识到这一点。
唯一他不承认为宗教的是儒教。他说，他们做什么？道教徒能在地上做法术，能给人符咒治病，有这些东西。儒教徒做什么？所以人们可以信儒教，没关系，但他没有给免税的权利。他免除了所有宗教机构的所有税，各种宗教。但因为儒教没有被归类，后来这被严重滥用，宗教拿到了所有人的财产，地还是你种，但现在是我们的，你不用交税了，给我们点钱就行。
他信什么
在巴米扬孙子死后、大屠杀之后，他进入了一个新阶段，召集各种宗教的学者。从中国来的长春真人，韦瑟福德说他很鄙视这个人，带着他那些法术公式来了，还有各种穆斯林领袖。成吉思汗在探索这些不同的宗教，而且不是简单的方式。他组织公开讲座和公开辩论，不是对抗性的辩论，是讨论，在互相仇恨、平时根本不会讨论任何事情的群体之间。这个有权势的人把他们召来，说，好，你解释你的宗教，你解释你的。
但韦瑟福德说，他从来没有改变过。他是个泛灵论者，这是我们唯一知道的说法。早年他崇拜那座他多次避难的山，不儿罕合勒敦（Burkhan Khaldun），那是他一生的伟大避难所。他会爬到山顶祈祷，摘下帽子，解下腰带，站在天空前面祈祷。后来这变得很有戏剧性，他有时会离开去祈祷，我们该不该入侵这些人？所有臣民等着听上帝会告诉成吉思汗什么。
但韦瑟福德认为发生的是这样的：蒙古人有那么多水里的、山里的、周围一切的神灵，你必须亲自认识它们，向它们祈祷，知道它们喜欢什么不喜欢什么，该给它们唱歌还是供奉奶制品。你必须认识它们。但你离开蒙古，这在中国成了问题，他们不认识那些神灵。这给蒙古人带来了极大的不安。你有一片土地，但神灵不喜欢我们，是敌意的土地，我们连它们是谁都不知道。这花了很长时间。
所以成吉思汗逐渐从他崇拜的山灵，那仍然是他一生崇拜的主要对象，转向天空。那是唯一普遍的神灵，它在世界任何地方都一样，天空对每个民族都是一样的。
在蒙古语里，天空、天堂、上帝、天气是同一个词：Tenger。宗教语境里说 Mönkh Khökh Tenger，永恒蓝天。所以他的泛灵论视野变得更普遍。天空可以包容所有宗教、所有民族，所有人都在追求同一种道德生活和来自天空的指引。他觉得每个人都知道道德，每个人都能在自己内心沟通道德，不必由别人从书本里教给他们。
你们这些人有你们的经书，你们不照着活。我们有我们的神灵、我们的萨满、我们的鼓，我们照着活。（杰克·韦瑟福德引蒙哥汗）
他推动的那些事
韦瑟福德说，他不想用现代的词来说这些。当你有一百万人，你必须用上每一个。男人在打仗，所以他把国内很多事交给女人管理，尤其是经济。蒙古周围一些附属的突厥王国，比如汪古部、葛逻禄、维吾尔，主要是他的女儿们在管理。他的妻子们管理蒙古本土，处理经济。
他用女人，是很实际地用，不一定是我们的意识形态方式。环境也一样。他不是我们现代意义上的环保主义者，但他通过了关于用水的严格法律，也关于不能把水引到一个地方去灌溉，那是侵犯大地和水。
很多历史学家认为蒙古人很蠢，让灌溉系统被毁掉。韦瑟福德说，不，毁掉一个灌溉系统比建一个要花更多工夫。他们毁掉那些系统是出于政策，这是要恢复成牧场。这个政策一直持续到忽必烈，忽必烈改了它，开始允许更多灌溉和水的调动。
另一个是保护使者。他说，每一个使者、每一个大使、每一个信使都受保护，不得逮捕、不得酷刑、不得杀害。如果你杀了我们的人，我们就灭了你。1240 年基辅被毁，就是因为他。成吉思汗死后，他的儿子窝阔台在位，窝阔台的军队在速不台（Subutai）带领下到了那里。速不台是韦瑟福德眼中世界历史上最伟大的将军，军事部分是速不台，成吉思汗是把一切组织起来的战略家。他们派了一个使者，是个女人。有些西方史料说她是成吉思汗的女儿，韦瑟福德没有证据，也不太相信，但也许她和他有亲缘关系。有人说她是女巫。基辅的人认定她是女巫，杀了她。就这样，基辅被毁，因为他们杀了一个蒙古使者。
韦瑟福德说，这就是为什么他说"塑造现代世界"。大部分想法我们都接受了，但我们不实践。我们今天都接受外交豁免，外交官每年在世界各地被杀。我们接受女性平等和解放，但事实上今天很多地方的女性还是被奴役。我们接受宗教自由，哦，但不是那些人，他们的宗教不好，他们的宗教不对，我们的宗教，我们会容忍他们，但他们得跟我们更像一点。不。我们只是说这些，世界还没有实现这些。而他在他的时代、在他的帝国里实现了。
商人的地位
游牧民族一般都关心贸易。历史上大部分时间，他们就是把货物从一个城市或绿洲运到另一个城市或绿洲的商人。蒙古人也极其关心贸易，极其依赖贸易。他们在本土几乎生产不出什么，种不了什么，也大多没有手艺。所以他们非常依赖贸易。
他们把商人的地位抬得极高。这在中国世界尤其是个问题，商人被看得极低。忽然他把商人抬到学者之上。他们得到某些权利，比如只交一次税，无论国税是多少，就那一次，不是每到一个新城镇就交一次。
他建了一套我们叫驿站或者休养中心的东西，商人可以在那里换马、取食、存钱拿到可以在帝国任何地方使用的纸币收据。他们被保证受到保护。如果必须经过危险地区，会有一小队人马护送。
蒙古人还以一种很奇怪的方式支持贸易：商人来了，报出一个离谱的价格，等着蒙古人砍价。蒙古人会说，我给你比这多得多的钱。窝阔台汗问过一个穆斯林财务顾问，你为什么要这么做，你得停。窝阔台说，钱去哪了？还在我的帝国里，最终会回来的。
忽必烈时代有一个象征。他的叔叔和父亲去过中国又回来，第二次旅行时马可·波罗跟他们一起去了中国又回来。他们全程安全，货物安全，带回了巨大的财富，从来没有被骚扰。能穿越整个大陆再回来，这本身是前所未有的。韦瑟福德说，我们真的没有蒙古之前任何人从中国去欧洲或者欧洲去中国的有据可查的案例。但自成吉思汗之后，东西方之间再也没有一年没有联系。它是永久的。他一旦建立，就是永久的。
这不只是货物的贸易，也是观念的交换。技术、哲学、科学、数学，全都在流动。成吉思汗组织天才的一部分，是知道一个人有什么技能可以贡献给他的帝国。穆斯林很擅长算术。他征服的花剌子模（Khorezm），我们今天的"算法"（algorithm）这个词就来自那里，因为那里有个数学家发明了算法。穆斯林在使用零，蒙古人对这个印象深刻，中国人比较怀疑零。因为牧民，数字对他们很重要，要清点牲口。
蒙古人有一个简单系统，把所有牲口折算成马的数量。你问一个人有多少牲口，他可以说，一百匹马。他说一百匹马，未必真有一百匹马。他们的算法是五头牛算四匹马，五只羊或五只山羊算一匹马，四头骆驼算五匹马。他们把所有东西折算下来。蒙古人对一切做人口普查。这是成吉思汗最早做的事之一，也是他到每个地方的要求：你们人民的完整普查。每户人家必须在外面张贴有多少人、多少牲口、做什么职业，所有这些信息。所以他们需要好的数学。穆斯林提供了。
他们把中东学者带到中国。不幸的是，他们在执行税收政策时有时很残酷，但他们成了他的财务顾问。其他群体有别的角色，他不断地调动他们。于是你有了组合。他自己有组合新技术的天才，但它创造了一种新的文化精神，别人也在别的层面上组合技术，并且被鼓励。引进这些东西不再是异端或者魔鬼的工作。
印刷术传播了。纸币部分地传播了。历书通过印刷被创造出来，结合了不同的历法和不同来源的信息。还有一种简单但致命的技术的例子：中国有火药，大多用于烟花、宗教活动，有时在战争里用作原始的手榴弹，或者用投石机扔出去的原始炸弹。这在忽必烈时代更多。中东的穆斯林和拜占庭人尤其有石脑油，也就是我们说的希腊火，能点火的喷火器。欧洲人在技术上不太出色，几乎什么都落后，但他们能为教堂铸钟。
好，把钟翻过来，用喷火器的原理，用中国的火药，你就得到一门炮。蒙古人很早就开始用了，到围攻巴格达的时候，但不是在成吉思汗有生之年，不久之后，在他的儿子和孙子时代，他们在用一些非常原始的炮。甚至还有发射杆之类的东西，不能叫步枪，但能发射很小的弹道装置。冶金、火药、喷火器，把它们放在一起，你就得到了一种极其不同的东西。
忽必烈与南宋的终结
1215 年，成吉思汗攻下我们今天叫北京的城市，那是金朝的首都。当时中国南方由宋朝统治，通常叫南宋。他已经征服了唐古特人的西夏。所以从 1215 年左右起，中国北方大部分在蒙古控制之下。他的后代征服了中部，然后忽必烈接手南方。
忽必烈就出生在 1215 年，攻下北京大约三个月后。他谁都不是，是成吉思汗第四个儿子的第二个儿子。他有很多表兄弟在外面骑马，他们在征服俄罗斯，已经烧了基辅，征服了世界各地。他们是真正的蒙古人，那是他们的全部生活。他出生，直到大约七岁才见到成吉思汗，因为成吉思汗在中亚征战。成吉思汗回来见了他，说，他长得不像蒙古人，他像他母亲那边的人。他母亲唆鲁禾帖尼（Sorghaghtani）是蔑儿乞王族的成员，是他早些时候征服的。
蒙古人通常很白，脸颊很红，脸很圆，他看起来不一样。他母亲大概看出了这个差异，对他区别对待。她的大儿子叫蒙哥，后来的蒙哥汗。她想让他成为大汗，蒙古帝国的皇帝。这不合规矩，他是第四个儿子的第二个儿子，前面还有很多人。但她发动了革命，她做到了，1251 年把她的儿子蒙哥扶上大汗之位。蒙哥只活到 1259 年，死于某种疾病，可能是霍乱，说法不一，他死在征服南宋的征途上。
在此之前，忽必烈没有什么出色表现。他母亲是基督徒，给他请了一个佛教保姆，还请中国学者来教他。她给他很好的教育。韦瑟福德认为她计划让他做哥哥手下的大管理者，管理中国的土地。所以他一直在学这些东西。但哥哥坚持派他出征。他超重，有痛风，需要休息，总有借口。哥哥派兀良哈台（Uriyangkhadai），速不台的儿子，去教他打仗。他在战场上不出色，但他很聪明。起初有点懒，喜欢谈论宗教，坐着，打猎，只要有很多人替他射箭、准备食物就行。他在中国北方的领地被蒙古带进来的管理者搞得一团糟，过度征税，欺骗百姓，什么都做错。他母亲基本上就是拉着他的链子，说，去你的领地，这是你的领地，你必须管理它。你到那里去，住在那里，掌权。所有人都怕这位母亲。所以他跑到中国，开始管理他的领地，开始学着怎么做。
1259 年他哥哥死的时候，他在长江边上一场哥哥派他去的战役里，毫无进展。但他想，好吧，哥哥死了，我应该打完这场仗。同时，他最小的弟弟阿里不哥（Ariq Boke）在蒙古。阿里不哥是另一个像他们父亲拖雷一样急躁的蒙古人。他受命主持一次道教和佛教之间的辩论，因为蒙古人觉得道教徒过度征税。他主持了，生气了，拿起一尊佛像把道教代表打死了。所以他不太适合调解辩论。他要当新的大汗，他在蒙古被宣布为大汗。
但这对忽必烈是一生的转折。他的妻子察必（Chabi）给他发了密信，基本上是说，忘了南宋，它一直在那儿，你以后可以征服它。现在你哥哥在接管帝国。你应该是新皇帝，你是蒙哥之后的下一个儿子。她不知怎么激励了他，他回来了。即使他没有全部军事战略，他有中国北方，资源巨大。
他能切断蒙古。蒙古非常依赖中国北方的粮食。所有蒙古人都支持阿里不哥，中亚的所有人都支持他。他去找他们要粮，他们不想放弃粮食。好，我们支持你当大汗，但我们不放弃粮食。所以他基本上是被饿到投降的，在 1262 年。然后他被俘虏到中国，1264 年神秘地死了，当时有一个法律案件要审判他，但他没到审判就走了。
忽必烈没有真正表现出多少才华，他没有他祖父的天才。但他聪明机灵。他比大多数蒙古人更懂中国，也比大多数中国人更懂蒙古人。
剩下的大事是成吉思汗在临终时说的：完成征服中国。这是伟大的目标。忽必烈要完成它，但他们不知道怎么做。海上长城保护着南宋。巨大的长江那么宽，旁边是大海，这一切都在保护他们。
他有一个非常聪明的将军叫阿术（Aju），他是真正的蒙古人，但也能用创新的方式思考。他是速不台的孙子，他和父亲兀良哈台一起去征服越南北部的红河，对抗大越。他们沿河而下，试图包围中国领土，从北、西、南三面打。他们沿红河而下征服大越。大越把军队用船运到另一边，还有一整队战象。
蒙古人在河的一边，大越军队在另一边。兀良哈台是个聪明人，不是天才，但聪明。他从在缅甸的战役里已经知道，唯一能让战象溃散的方法是用火箭射它们的脚。但他意识到他们是坐船来的。蒙古人不喜欢船。他们坐山羊皮过河。他们想做有机的东西。船像车，车属于女人，是漂浮的车。我不坐漂浮的车过去，我要骑山羊皮过河。所以他派了一支分队，你们必须烧掉船，这样我们击溃战象时大越人跑不掉。
战斗开始了，战象乱跑，一片混乱。被派去烧船的那队是蒙古人，他们想打仗。为什么要烧一堆女人的车？这不漂浮……所以他们去参加战斗，丢下了船。蒙古人赢了战斗，但大越军队上了船，开回了今天的河内。然后他们撤离了城市，带走所有食物，消失在三角洲里。蒙古人到了，他们征服了引号里的河内，首都。他们什么都没有。他们赢下了每一场战斗，输掉了战争。他们撤退了。
阿术是兀良哈台的儿子，他看到了这一切，认识到水和船的重要性。他花时间研究长江和周围每一条小河、每一座城市。他看到的关键是：城市在陆地方向防御极其严密，因为入侵从陆上来，他们期望一条小船线在水上保护他们。所以城市在水那边的城墙很弱，防御很弱。那就是我们必须攻击的地方。怎么攻击？
他们派人去伊尔汗国，去波斯，成吉思汗的侄子们在那里统治。他们派工程师去造一种特殊的投石机，一种弩炮。他们得调整它以适应船，因为它通常是为稳固地面造的，他们把它改到船上，用来投重物。还为它开发了一些燃烧弹。他们攻第一座城，城破。攻下一座，破。他们有了有效的东西。他们沿长江一路打下去，用这支水军摧毁一座又一座城市。然后陆军在海军打破防线之后进入。
这是为一群深深不适应船的民族想出的工程解决方案。船不再是女人的车，它是一张弓和一支箭，一张巨大的弓和一支箭。
他们一路征服到杭州，南宋的首都。南宋当权很久了，从 970 年开始，现在已经到 1270 年代。很长时间了。他们衰败了。有小孩子在统治，各种事情在发生。
忽必烈做了一个很奇怪的动作。他说，好，我们现在入侵日本。他们想，什么？等等，我们在跟宋朝打仗。大多数人把这归结为各种原因。但韦瑟福德认为这有很强的逻辑。一是他废除了祖父"击败并摧毁，直到他们不复存在"的政策，那是对敌人用的说法。他换成了某种仁慈政策，试着把他们纳入你的军队，如果可能的话，但要仁慈。他不想摧毁。有很多叛逃者过来。因为蒙古人看重有技能的人，很多非常聪明的人，造船的、工程的，涌向蒙古人。而学者们都待在广州，写书法、写诗，比赛谁唱得好、画得好。我不知道学者做什么，但他们在做学者。
但韦瑟福德认为入侵日本有非常好的理由，有好几个。主要是切断硫磺供应。他们需要硫磺做火药，南宋失去了北方的来源，他们从日本获得。日本是很大的来源。
但他认为还有别的理由。如果他们能贸易，也可能逃到日本。他们不想这发生。还有杀鸡儆猴的想法。好，我们去做这个，也许他们看到我们征服日本就会投降。
结果是彻底的失败。你有一堆主要在河上和沿海很好的船，你要渡过非常险恶的水域。蒙古人基本上不知道自己在做什么。你可以带着投石机到达，往海滩上扔手榴弹。这不会造成多大破坏，可能会吓到几匹马，但你不是在摧毁城市。日本的城市更多在内陆，它们不在海滩上等着蒙古人来入侵。所以这次入侵他失败了。
那正是武士的时代。武士有一些非常仪式化的方式。像欧洲的骑士，穿着需要用起重机吊上马的盔甲。就是疯狂。武士几乎要到，你骑到敌人面前，背诵你的家谱。什么？蒙古人对此毫无用处。他们来打仗，来赢。但另一方面，这对他们是未知领域，天气也确实对他们不利。但韦瑟福德不想给天气太多功劳。他真的认为日本人打败了他们。蒙古人准备不足，他们的船不太好。他们在第一次入侵中被打败了。
他们确实下了船，在陆地上有一些小规模冲突或小战斗。但他们没有成功完成它们，做不了他们通常的蒙古那一套。他们没有足够的马，还有很多战术上的错误。这是第一次有人尝试如此大规模的入侵。
所以他在征服上失败了，他像一个蒙古人那样思考，你统治那些水域和土地。但他统治了海洋。他停止了贸易，停止了供应，切断了宋朝逃往日本的可能性。他在某种意义上是赢了。他输了，但他实现了切断中国南方的目标。这也给了他的水军一些海洋经验，现在他们准备好进入中国南方周围的海洋。他们正在逼近。
阿术在指挥，但真正的总指挥是一个叫伯颜（Bayan）的人，他是个在中亚长大的蒙古人，可能在费尔干纳谷地一带。他们不太确定他出生在哪，但他在那边长大，后来住在今天的伊朗。他来了，接管了军队。他非常国际化、老练、聪明。阿术本该是总指挥。但伯颜认识到了这一点，他和阿术合作得很好。阿术知道怎么打仗，伯颜能和首都谈判，处理事情。所以伯颜是总指挥。
南宋的将军们纷纷叛逃。手艺人全都来投蒙古人，拿报酬。将军们把珠宝装船，抓了五岁小皇帝的两个兄弟，把他们放上船逃走。他们甚至抛弃了自己的家人。将军们是腐败的懦夫，他们逃了。留下掌权的是太后，一位老太太。她没有孩子。她叫谢太后。他们说她少了一只眼，很丑，他们叫她丑谢。她在
The following is a conversation with Jack Weatherford, anthropologist and historian specializing in Genghis Khan and the Mongol Empire.
以下是与专门研究成吉思汗和蒙古帝国的人类学家和历史学家杰克·韦瑟福德的对话。
00:00 He has written a legendary book on his topic titled Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World, and he has written many other books, including Emperor of the Seas: Kublai Khan and the Making of China, Genghis Khan and the Quest for God, The Secret History of the Mongol Queens and other excellent books.
他就此主题写了一本传奇书籍《成吉思汗与现代世界的创造》，还写了许多其他书籍，包括《海皇：忽必烈与中国的创造》、《成吉思汗与上帝的探索》、《蒙古皇后秘史》等优秀书籍。
I’ve gotten to know Jack more after this conversation and I cannot speak highly enough about him.
经过这次谈话，我对杰克有了更多的了解，我对他的评价再高也不为过。
He’s a truly brilliant, thoughtful, and kind soul.
他是一个真正聪明、有思想、善良的人。
This was a huge honor and pleasure for me.
这对我来说是一个巨大的荣誉和快乐。
This is the Lex Fridman podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。
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And now, dear friends, here’s Jack Weatherford.
现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是杰克·韦瑟福德。
00:56 Genghis Khan, born in approximately 1162, became the conqueror of the largest contiguous empire in history.
成吉思汗大约出生于 1162 年，成为历史上面积最大的帝国的征服者。
But before that, he was a boy named Temüjin, who at nine years old, lost everything.
但在此之前，他是一个名叫铁木真的男孩，九岁时就失去了一切。
His father, his tribe, living in poverty, abandoned to the harshness of the Mongolian steppe.
他的父亲，他的部落，生活贫困，被遗弃在严酷的蒙古草原上。
From a boy with nothing to the conqueror of the world.
从一个一无所有的男孩到世界的征服者。
So tell me about this boy, his childhood and the Mongolian steppe from which he came from.
请告诉我关于这个男孩、他的童年以及他来自的蒙古草原的故事。
The story of Genghis Khan, like the story I think of all of us, it doesn’t begin at birth, it begins…
成吉思汗的故事，就像我想到的我们所有人的故事一样，它不是从出生开始，而是开始……
01:27 That’s the beginning of life.
这就是生命的开始。
The story begins long before birth, and sometimes it can be many generations before and sometimes only shortly before.
故事早在出生前就开始了，有时可能是好几代人之前，有时只是不久之前。
But I think with Genghis Khan, a crucial thing is to understand how his parents met and then how he was conceived.
但我认为对于成吉思汗来说，至关重要的是了解他的父母是如何相遇的，以及他是如何受孕的。
And that is that one day a cart was coming across the Mongol territory and only women drove carts.
有一天，一辆马车穿越蒙古领土，只有妇女驾驶马车。
Men rode horses, women also rode horses, but women owned the houses which were called gers, the tents.
男人骑马，女人也骑马，但女人拥有被称为蒙古包（gers）的房屋，即帐篷。
They owned all the household equipment, and so they had to have carts for moving back and forth.
他们拥有所有的家用设备，所以他们必须有推车来来回移动。
And the fact that a cart was moving meant that some woman was moving from one place to another.
事实上，一辆手推车正在移动，这意味着某个女人正在从一个地方移动到另一个地方。
And in fact, her husband was with her.
事实上，她的丈夫也和她在一起。
She was a new bride and her husband was on a horse close to her.
她是一位新新娘，她的丈夫骑在一匹马上，离她很近。
02:29 So what happened was a man named Yesügei…
所以发生的事情是一个叫也速该的人……
Yesügei, the future father of Genghis Khan.
也速该，成吉思汗未来的父亲。
Yesügei was up on a hill.
也速该在一座小山上。
He was hunting with his falcon.
他正在用他的猎鹰狩猎。
The words of the Secret History of the Mongols were very clear, and he looked down and he saw her and he could barely glimpse her, but he knew she was young and she was a new bride.
蒙古秘史的话写得很清楚，他低头看到了她，几乎看不到她，但他知道她很年轻，而且是新新娘。
And he rode back to camp.
然后他骑马返回营地。
He got his two brothers and they came racing down and they came…
他带着他的两个兄弟，他们飞奔而来，他们来了……
And first the husband of the woman looked around and he decided to flee, not because he was a coward, but he figured he would probably pull the men after him.
首先，女人的丈夫环顾四周，决定逃跑，不是因为他是个胆小鬼，而是因为他认为他可能会拉着那些男人追他。
They would chase him.
他们会追赶他。
And they did.
他们做到了。
They chased him.
他们追赶他。
He went far away.
他走得很远。
He circled around.
他绕了一圈。
He came back.
他回来了。
He arrived back at the cart where his wife was.
他回到了妻子所在的马车旁。
Her name was Hö’elün.
她的名字叫诃额仑。
And Hö’elün had time to think while he was riding around being chased by the Mongols.
而诃额伦在被蒙古人追赶的路上，也有时间思考。
03:28 And she decided that it’s more important for him to live.
她认为对他来说，活下去更重要。
And she told him when he came back, “You must flee.
当他回来时，她告诉他：“你必须逃跑。
If you stay here, they will kill you and they will take me.
如果你留在这里，他们会杀了你，然后带走我。
But if you flee, they will take me, but you will have the chance to find another wife.
但如果你逃跑，他们会带走我，但你将有机会另找妻子。
There are many women in the world.
世界上有很多女人。
You find one and you call her Hö’elün after my name, and you remember me when you’re with her.” It’s a very dramatic moment.
你找到一个，然后用我的名字称呼她为诃额仑，当你和她在一起时，你就会记住我。”这是一个非常戏剧性的时刻。
And he rode away and he looked back and forth, and it said that the pigtails or the braids that were hanging down were whipping back and forth from his chest to his back.
他骑着马走开，他来回一看，据说垂下来的辫子或辫子正在从他的胸前到他的后背来回抽动。
He was divided, obviously, whether he should go or stay.
显然，他对于应该走还是留下存在分歧。
But the three men were approaching again and they were headed straight for the cart this time.
但三人又靠近了，这次他们直奔马车而去。
And they came in and they took Hö’elün.
他们进来并占领了诃额伦。
04:22 She didn’t say a word until her husband was over the ridge.
直到她丈夫翻过山脊，她才说一句话。
And when he was over the ridge and she could no longer see him, she began to scream and wail.
当他越过山脊，她再也看不见他时，她开始尖叫和哭泣。
And one of the brothers said to her, “It doesn’t matter if you shake the waters out of the river and if you shake the mountains with your screaming, you will never see this man again.” And he was right.
其中一位兄弟对她说：“无论你把河里的水抖掉，或者用尖叫震动山，你都不会再见到这个人了。”他是对的。
That was the moment that Genghis Khan’s mother and father met.
那是成吉思汗的父母相遇的那一刻。
That’s the beginning of his story in this kidnapping.
这就是他在这次绑架中的故事的开始。
And it’s going to reverberate every detail of it.
它会影响到它的每一个细节。
We’ll come back again and again, not only throughout the story of the life of Genghis Khan, but it’s going to continue on with the feuds and the issues caused by it all the way into the future.
我们会一次又一次地回来，不仅贯穿整个成吉思汗的一生的故事，而且还将继续讲述由此引发的争斗和问题，直至未来。
And to some extent in certain parts of the world, you could say it still exists.
在某种程度上，在世界的某些地方，你可以说它仍然存在。
So the meeting is fundamentally sort of a mixture of heartbreak and dark criminal type of kidnapping?
所以这次会议基本上是心碎和黑暗犯罪类型绑架的混合体？
Yes.
是的。
And from that is conceived this conqueror of the biggest contiguous empire in history.
由此孕育了历史上最大的连续帝国的征服者。
What I was really interested in was how did this happen?
我真正感兴趣的是这是怎么发生的？
05:35 Who was this person?
这个人是谁？
As Wordsworth wrote in his poem, “The child is father of the man, and it’s the childhood that created him.” And it’s that episode that was before he was born, but all the things that happened throughout his childhood made him into the man that he became.
正如华兹华斯在他的诗中写道：“孩子是男人的父亲，是童年创造了他。”这是他出生之前的那段插曲，但他整个童年发生的所有事情使他成为了现在的样子。
And so he was now, suddenly this unusual situation was created where a child is going to be born to a kidnapped woman who’s being held by strange people, the Mongols.
所以他现在就这样，突然出现了这种不寻常的情况，一个被绑架的女人即将生下一个孩子，这个女人被奇怪的人蒙古人关押。
They were not her people.
他们不是她的人。
And he already had another wife, her husband, he had a wife named Sochigel.
他已经有了另一个妻子，她的丈夫，他有一个名叫索奇格尔的妻子。
He had at that time already one son, later he had another son with her.
当时他已经有了一个儿子，后来他又和她生了另一个儿子。
It was a very odd situation.
这是一个非常奇怪的情况。
And in fact, the father, Yesügei wasn’t even there when Temüjin was born.
事实上，铁木真出生时，父亲也速该并不在场。
He was off fighting the Tatars.
他要去与鞑靼人作战。
06:38 And during this campaign against the Tatars, he killed two Tatars.
在这次对鞑靼人的征战中，他杀死了两名鞑靼人。
One of them was named Temujin-üge, which is sort of person of iron is what it means from the Turkic.
其中一位名叫铁木真兀格，是突厥语中铁人的意思。
But today a part of also Mongolian language.
但今天也是蒙古语的一部分。
So he came back, he had a baby, and he decided to name him Temüjin, the person of iron or iron-man, we might call him.
于是他回来了，生了一个孩子，他决定给他起名叫铁木真，我们可以这样称呼他，铁人或铁人。
After the man he killed.
在他杀了那个人之后。
After the man he killed.
在他杀了那个人之后。
07:05 So he has a kidnapped mother, she’s a second wife now, not a legal wife, but just a second kidnapped wife.
所以他有一个被绑架的母亲，她现在是第二个妻子，不是合法的妻子，而只是一个被绑架的第二个妻子。
And he’s named for someone his father just killed.
他是以他父亲刚刚杀死的一个人的名字命名的。
It was not an auspicious beginning.
这不是一个吉祥的开始。
And in fact, just episode after episode in his childhood was inauspicious.
事实上，他童年时期的一幕又一幕都是不吉利的。
The father and mother moved camp one time when he was quite young and somehow they overlooked him and forgot him.
当他还很小的时候，父亲和母亲曾经搬过营地，但不知何故，他们忽视了他，忘记了他。
He was left behind.
他被抛在了后面。
So here’s this young child, we don’t know what age, but it could have been around four or five, I think.
这是这个小孩，我们不知道多大，但我想可能是四五岁左右。
He was left behind.
他被抛在了后面。
And as it turned out, some other people, the Taichiud found him and then they kept him for a while, and eventually he was reunited with his father and mother.
事实证明，其他一些人，太极人找到了他，然后他们把他关押了一段时间，最终他和他的父母团聚了。
07:58 And it’s very odd to me that I never have any inkling of a spark of relationship much between the father and the son because then when Temüjin is eight years old, his father decides to take him off to find a wife, which finding a wife in the Mongolian terms means you give the child to that family or you give the boy to that family and he will live with them and they will raise him up and they will train him the way they want before he can marry their daughter.
对我来说很奇怪的是，我从来没有想到父亲和儿子之间有任何关系的火花，因为当铁木真八岁的时候，他的父亲决定带他去寻找一个妻子，用蒙古语来说，寻找妻子意味着你把孩子交给那个家庭，或者你把男孩交给那个家庭，他会和他们住在一起，他们会抚养他，他们会按照他们想要的方式训练他，然后他才能娶他们的女儿。
And so he’s taking him off at age eight, but he didn’t take the other son from the other wife, Behter.
所以他在八岁时就夺走了他的儿子，但他并没有从另一位妻子贝赫特那里夺走另一个儿子。
He was keeping him.
他留着他。
There was something about Temüjin having been lost once and found by the Taichiud and reunited with the family.
铁木真曾经失踪过一次，后来被太极部发现并与家人团聚，这似乎有些道理。
08:46 And now his father takes him off at age eight and he was going to take him to Hö’elün’s family, but he never made it.
现在，他的父亲在他八岁的时候就带他离开了，他本来打算带他去诃额仑的家里，但他却没能成行。
He stopped with another family.
他和另一个家庭停了下来。
It’s like the first family he came across.
这就像他遇到的第一个家庭。
And in the words of the Secret History, it sort of like instant love that there was fire in his eyes and fire in her eyes.
而用秘史的话来说，他的眼里有火，她的眼里有火，有点像一见钟情。
And he saw this girl Börte, who was about nine years old, a little older, and he wanted to stay there with that family according to the story.
他看到了这个女孩博尔特（Börte），她大约九岁，年纪稍大一些，根据故事，他想和那个家庭住在一起。
And so the father left him there with that family.
于是父亲把他留在了那里和那个家庭在一起。
But on the way home, the father, he saw a drinking party and he decided to join them.
但在回家的路上，父亲看到了一场酒会，他决定加入他们。
They were Tatars.
他们是鞑靼人。
He hid his identity.
他隐藏了自己的身份。
On the steppe, everybody kind of figures out who everybody is.
在草原上，每个人都知道自己是谁。
They figured out who he was.
他们猜出了他是谁。
And supposedly they poisoned him.
据说他们毒死了他。
He got on his horse and was able to ride back home.
他骑上马，骑着马回家了。
But within a few days he died.
但几天之内他就去世了。
09:53 So now Temüjin is off living with another family, and somebody comes from his family, a family, not a relative, but a close person named Münglig comes to get him, take him back, and they make it through the winter.
所以现在铁木真已经和另一个家庭住在一起了，有一个人来自他的家庭，一个家庭，不是亲戚，而是一个名叫Münglig的亲密的人来接他，把他带回来，他们一起度过了冬天。
They make it through the winter.
他们熬过了冬天。
Mother Hö’elün, by now she has four sons and one daughter.
母亲诃额仑，现已育有四子一女。
I think the daughter had already been born or the daughter was going to be born not too long after that, but they make it through the winter.
我想女儿已经出生了，或者不久之后女儿就要出生了，但他们熬过了冬天。
The spring comes and of course the clan is going to move to a new camp.
春天来了，部落当然要搬到新的营地了。
They go to spring camp from winter camp.
他们从冬令营转到春令营。
And they have a ceremony for the ancestors.
他们还有祭祀祖先的仪式。
And they started the ceremony, but they did not tell Hö’elün.
他们开始了仪式，但没有告诉诃额仑。
And so she came and she was angry that she had been left out.
于是她就来了，她很生气自己被排除在外。
And the old women said, “You’re the one for whom we do not have to call.
老妇人说：“我们不需要为你打电话。
We will feed you if you come, but we do not have to take care of you.”
如果你来的话我们会喂你，但我们不需要照顾你。”
10:57 Letting her know that as a captive woman, she was not a real wife in their view.
让她知道，作为一个俘虏的女人，在他们看来，她并不是一个真正的妻子。
And that was really the signal that when they moved camp, they were not taking her with them.
这确实是一个信号，表明当他们转移营地时，他们并没有把她带走。
And they packed up and they took her animals.
他们收拾好东西，带走了她的动物。
They took the animals.
他们带走了动物。
But at that moment, she still had one horse for a moment, and she jumped on the horse and she took the banner of her husband and she raced around the people.
但那一刻，她还是有一匹马，一跃而上，她扛着丈夫的旗帜，在众人的身边奔跑。
And the banner after death contains the soul of the person, [foreign language 00:11:29] it’s called.
而死后的旗帜包含着人的灵魂，[外语00:11:29]这就是所谓的。
And so she raced around and they were a little bit nervous.
于是她跑来跑去，他们有点紧张。
And so they camped for one night and they waited until it was dark, then they took off.
于是他们扎营了一晚，等到天黑才出发。
And this time one of the friends of the family came running out to try to stop them and they killed him.
这次，这家人的一位朋友跑出来试图阻止他们，结果他们杀了他。
11:46 And Temüjin cried.
铁木真哭了。
He was a little boy, eight years old.
他是一个小男孩，八岁。
There was nothing he could do.
他无能为力。
He’s just a little boy.
他只是一个小男孩。
And now that family is left there on the steppe, four children, possibly five already.
现在，这个家庭只剩下四个孩子，可能已经五个了。
Sochigel, the other woman with two children.
索奇格尔，另一位有两个孩子的妇女。
They’re all left there to die on the steppe.
他们都被留在草原上等死。
When the winter comes, they will surely all die.
冬天一到，它们肯定都会死掉。
How do they make it through the winter?
他们如何度过冬天？
Mother Hö’elün, in the words of the Secret History, she pulled her hat down over her head.
诃额仑妈妈，用《秘史》的话来说，她把帽子拉低到头上。
12:16 She took her black stick and she ran up and down the banks of the river digging out roots to feed the gullet of her brood.
她拿着黑色的棍子，在河岸上跑来跑去，挖出树根来喂食她的孩子们。
She fed them through the winter.
她喂养它们度过了整个冬天。
She found foods digging up whatever she could, finding whatever she could, everything she could.
她发现食物，尽其所能地挖掘，找到她能找到的一切，她能找到的一切。
And even at this young age, Temüjin was already beginning to go out to collect things.
铁木真年纪轻轻，就已经开始出去收集东西了。
He could get fish, he could do a few tasks to help feed the family.
他可以抓鱼，可以做一些任务来帮助养家糊口。
It was an extremely awful struggle at this point, but she saved every one of the children.
这是一场极其可怕的斗争，但她拯救了每一个孩子。
So Temüjin’s early years were marked by loneliness, abandonment and struggle?
那么铁木真早年的生活是孤独、被遗弃和挣扎的吗？
Yes.
是的。
13:12 Even after this, he was kidnapped at one point by Taichiud people.
即使在此之后，他也曾一度被 Taichiud 人绑架。
He was kidnapped and we would say, I think the correct word, enslaved.
他被绑架了，我们会说，我认为正确的词，被奴役。
They put him into a cangue, a yoke like a ox would wear.
他们把他锁在枷锁上，就像牛会戴的轭一样。
And so his two arms are in it and his head is in it, and he’s trapped in this thing.
所以他的两只手臂在里面，他的头也在里面，他被困在这个东西里了。
And every night he would be taken to a different ger to be guarded by that family.
每天晚上他都会被带到不同的蒙古包，由那家人看守。
And one night there was a little celebration.
有一天晚上，举行了一场小型庆祝活动。
So most of the people are drinking and he’s left with a boy who’s not very smart.
所以大多数人都在喝酒，而他留下了一个不太聪明的男孩。
Temüjin managed to take the cangue, the wooden yoke that he’s trapped in and use it as a weapon by turning it around very quickly and hitting the boy in the head, knocking him out.
铁木真成功地拿起了他被困的木枷锁，并用它作为武器，快速转动它，击中了男孩的头部，将他击倒。
That was one of the first lessons for the Mongols, that anything that moves is a weapon.
这是蒙古人的第一个教训：任何会移动的东西都是武器。
14:10 This is going to go on for generations.
这将持续几代人。
Very important for the Mongols.
对于蒙古人来说非常重要。
If it moves, it’s a weapon.
如果它能动，那就是武器。
He did that.
他这么做了。
He raced off in the night and he jumped into the river to hide.
他连夜逃跑，跳进河里躲起来。
He still got a cangue on him.
他身上仍然有一根枷锁。
He’s still trapped under there.
他仍然被困在那里。
The people are looking for him.
人们正在寻找他。
They come out and they’re up and down the river and he’s hiding underneath the water for the most part, trying to breathe as best he can, but it’s dark and it protects him a little bit.
他们出来了，在河上来回走动，他大部分时间都躲在水下，尽力呼吸，但天很黑，这对他有一点保护。
They give up and they say, “Okay, we’ll come back tomorrow.
他们放弃了，然后说：“好吧，我们明天再来。
He can’t possibly escape.” But the next day, he knew one family that he thought he could go to, and he was right.
他不可能逃走的。”但第二天，他认识了一个他认为可以去的家庭，他是对的。
He went to that family and a great risk to themselves.
他去了那个家庭，给自己带来了很大的风险。
They in fact were a captive family of the Taichiud and at great risk to themselves, they managed to saw off the cangue and then burn it in their fire, and they gave him food to escape, and then he had to go find his family again.
他们其实是被太极人俘虏的一家人，冒着极大的危险，他们设法把锁链锯下来，然后用火烧了，给了他食物让他逃走，然后他不得不再次去找他的家人。
So this is the kind of life that this boy Temüjin had.
这就是铁木真这个男孩的生活。
So he, just to be clear, the neck is trapped and the hands are trapped?
那么他，澄清一下，脖子被困住了，手也被困住了？
We think that’s how it is.
我们认为事情就是这样。
15:23 We just have the word.
我们只有一句话。
They don’t say the head and the hands.
他们没有说头和手。
We know that his body is trapped in it, but from all evidence we have, it’s the hands and the head.
我们知道他的身体被困在里面，但从我们掌握的所有证据来看，被困的是手和头。
And he is running around deeply alone with this thing?
而他却孤身一人带着这东西四处奔波？
Yes.
是的。
15:41 And then he has to go out and find wherever his family is.
然后他必须出去寻找他的家人在哪里。
So this in part was the foundation of his breaking with Mongol tradition, that kinship is the most important thing above all else.
所以这在一定程度上是他打破蒙古传统的基础，即血缘关系是最重要的。
15:46 Because here’s his life story where he’s abandoned over and over and over.
因为这是他的人生故事，他一次又一次被抛弃。
Yes, by his father’s own brothers.
是的，是他父亲的兄弟们。
16:00 See, the men who kidnapped her, they had an obligation under the Mongol law and custom to marry her when her husband died.
看，绑架她的人，根据蒙古法律和习俗，他们有义务在她丈夫去世后娶她。
They did not.
他们没有。
They should take care of her and her children because her children or the children of their brother, they count as the sons of the clan, or they should.
他们应该照顾她和她的孩子，因为她的孩子或他们兄弟的孩子，他们算作氏族的儿子，或者他们应该。
But no, they had all deserted him, all betrayed him.
但不，他们都抛弃了他，都背叛了他。
He learned very early on that you cannot trust family.
他很早就知道你不能信任家人。
You mentioned that Genghis Khan’s childhood, Temüjin was marked by extreme tribal violence.
您提到，成吉思汗铁木真的童年充满了极端的部落暴力。
16:31 Can you describe sort of the state of affairs in the steppe?
您能描述一下草原上的情况吗？
How much violence is there?
有多少暴力？
How much kidnapping is there?
绑架事件有多少？
The story of Temüjin is not a unique story for that time.
铁木真的故事在当时并不是一个独特的故事。
16:48 Now, as an isolated family of outcasts, of course he’s not participating in the various feuds and the raids of the people around them, but they are constantly raiding in the winter and for women and for horses and for any kind of valuables that they can find.
现在，作为一个与世隔绝的流放者家庭，他当然不会参与周围人的各种争斗和袭击，但他们在冬天不断地袭击，为了妇女、马匹以及他们能找到的任何贵重物品。
It’s almost like their way of getting trade goods from China.
这几乎就像他们从中国获取贸易商品的方式一样。
That one group raids the other in order to find out whatever they have for textiles or for metal.
一组人会袭击另一组人，以找出他们所拥有的纺织品或金属。
17:23 Mongols produced nothing.
蒙古人什么也没生产。
They could produce felt to make their tents, but they were not craftsmen.
他们可以生产毛毡来制作帐篷，但他们不是工匠。
And so they had to get these items from somewhere, and it was through raiding.
所以他们必须从某个地方获取这些物品，而且是通过袭击。
Even in the genealogy of Temüjin, you see going back generation after generation of women having been kidnapped, children born who are not necessarily the father’s child, and it’s unclear who the father was, and all of these issues go back for a long time.
即使在铁木真的家谱中，你也可以看到一代又一代的妇女被绑架，所生的孩子不一定是父亲的孩子，父亲是谁也不清楚，所有这些问题都可以追溯到很长一段时间。
Later, Genghis Khan will realize once he becomes Chinggis Khan, he will realize that the true source of most of the feuding on the steppe is over women.
后来，成吉思汗会意识到，一旦他成为了成吉思汗，他就会意识到草原上大部分争斗的真正根源是女人。
And later he will outlaw the kidnapping of women and the sale of women, in part not only because of what had happened to his mother, but what happened to him next in his life.
后来，他将禁止绑架妇女和买卖妇女，部分原因不仅是因为他母亲的遭遇，还因为他接下来的生活中发生的事情。
And this is one of the things you talk about, this in some ways, the love story with his wife was her kidnapping, was the defining…
这是你谈论的事情之一，从某种程度上来说，他与妻子的爱情故事是她被绑架，是决定性的……
18:16 If you could point to one place where Genghis Khan the conqueror was created, it’s that point, his wife being kidnapped.
如果你能指出征服者成吉思汗被创造的地方，那就是他的妻子被绑架的地方。
Can you describe, first of all, his love for this woman and what that means and what the kidnapping of her meant?
首先，你能描述一下他对这个女人的爱以及这意味着什么以及绑架她意味着什么吗？
At age 16, Börte, the girl he had met when he was eight years old as she was nine, she’s now 17, and she and her mother come.
博尔特 16 岁，他八岁时认识的女孩，当时她九岁，现在她 17 岁了，她和她的母亲来了。
18:45 It’s hard to even imagine what it was like for this 16-year-old boy who has suffered these indignities of life in every way that you can imagine.
很难想象这个16岁的男孩经历了什么样的生活，他以各种你能想象到的方式遭受了这些生活的侮辱。
And suddenly, here is the love of his life, who’s going to be living with him, making him happy.
突然之间，他一生的挚爱就出现了，他将和他住在一起，让他幸福。
He has somebody who loves him.
他有一个爱他的人。
It’s not just his mother running around getting food and trying to feed the five children and plus the other wife and her two children.
这不仅仅是他的母亲四处奔走寻找食物并试图养活五个孩子以及另一位妻子和她的两个孩子。
No, he has somebody who loves him.
不，他有一个爱他的人。
19:32 It’s all the excitement that you can imagine with the fire in the eyes and the excitement.
这是你可以想象的所有兴奋，眼睛里充满火焰和兴奋。
And then it only lasts a few months.
然后它只持续几个月。
So there they are…
所以他们就在那里……
And there’s a lady visiting them.
有一位女士拜访他们。
We don’t know exactly who she is, but just they called her grandmother, [foreign language 00:19:50].
我们不知道她到底是谁，但他们只是叫她祖母，[外语 00:19:50]。
Granny [foreign language 00:19:51] is there.
奶奶[外语00:19:51]在那儿。
Granny [foreign language 00:19:52] is sleeping, of course, on the floor of the ger, the tent.
当然，奶奶[外语00:19:52]正在蒙古包、帐篷的地板上睡觉。
And early in the morning, she feels the vibrations in the earth, and she knows that horsemen are coming.
清晨，她感觉到大地的震动，她知道骑兵即将到来。
She rouses the family.
她唤醒了家人。
And mother Hö’elün is in charge.
母亲诃额仑负责。
Mother Hö’elün is still in charge even though Temüjin is now married.
尽管铁木真现已结婚，但母亲诃额伦仍然掌管一切。
She puts all of her children on a horse.
她把所有的孩子都骑上了马。
She takes the baby girl Temülün in her own lap.
她把女婴铁木伦抱在自己的腿上。
She has one extra horse, but she won’t take Börte because she knows…
她多了一匹马，但她不会带走博尔特，因为她知道……
20:31 She doesn’t know who the men are.
她不知道这些男人是谁。
She has no idea.
她不知道。
But they’re coming.
但他们来了。
They’re coming in the dark.
他们在黑暗中来临。
They’re coming for a woman.
他们是来找女人的。
They know there’s a girl there.
他们知道那里有一个女孩。
This family of outcasts has acquired a wife, and they know that they’re coming for that.
这个被遗弃的家庭娶了一个妻子，他们知道他们是为此而来的。
And so she leaves Sochigel, the other wife, she leaves this old lady, granny [foreign language 00:20:51], who actually has her own cart, and she leaves Börte.
所以她离开了索奇格尔，另一位妻子，她离开了这位老太太，奶奶[外语00:20:51]，她实际上有自己的购物车，她离开了Börte。
They pile into granny’s cart, and it’s only an ox to pull it so they don’t get too far before the attackers get there.
他们挤进奶奶的车里，只有一头牛来拉车，这样他们就不会在袭击者到达之前走得太远。
But mother Hö’elün is right.
但诃额仑妈妈说得对。
She’s able to get her children off to the mountain, into [foreign language 00:21:09], to the mountain side away from them because the men are so focused on this cart and finding out how many women are in there and who they are and all.
她能够把她的孩子们带到山上，进入[外语00:21:09]，到远离他们的山边，因为男人们如此专注于这辆马车，并找出那里有多少女人以及她们是谁等等。
So mother Hö’elün saved her family, but at a cost.
因此，母亲诃额仑拯救了她的家人，但也付出了代价。
21:26 Suddenly Temüjin realizes he has obeyed his mother, but he’s lost the most important thing in his life.
突然，铁木真意识到他已经听从了母亲的吩咐，但他却失去了生命中最重要的东西。
And I do think this is the defining moment of his life.
我确实认为这是他一生的决定性时刻。
The story began back when his mother was kidnapped, but now the kidnapping of his wife and [inaudible 00:21:46] what will he do?
故事开始于他的母亲被绑架时，但现在他的妻子被绑架了，[听不清 00:21:46] 他会做什么？
What should he do?
他该怎么办？
What can he do?
他能做什么？
Is he going to just resign himself to it?
他会就此认命吗？
Is he going to go out and look for another wife?
难道他要出去再另娶一个妻子吗？
And he decides that life is not worth living without Börte.
他认为没有 Börte，生活就不值得过。
He has found something good in this life.
他在这一生中找到了一些美好的东西。
And if he has to die trying to get her back, he will die trying to get her back.
如果他必须为了让她回来而死，他就会为了让她回来而死。
And this is the early steps of the military genius born, because in order to get her back requires an actual organization of troops.
这是军事天才诞生的早期步骤，因为为了让她回来，需要实际组织军队。
He needs allies.
他需要盟友。
Allies.
盟国。
He goes to a man who ruled the Khiyad people in Central Mongolia, the Tuul River, about where the capital Ulaanbaatar is today.
他去找了一位统治蒙古中部图拉河地区希亚德人的人，那里大约就是今天首都乌兰巴托的地方。
22:28 He goes there because that Wang Khan is his name or Toghrul khan.
他去那里是因为王汗是他的名字或托古鲁尔汗。
He goes there because Wang khan had been the Lord over his father at one point, and his father had gone on raids for him.
他去那里是因为王可汗曾经是他父亲的主，而他的父亲为他进行了袭击。
And so he went there and actually he took a gift, that’s because Börte’s mother had brought a sable coat as a gift for mother Hö’elün at that time of the marriage.
所以他去了那里，实际上他拿了一份礼物，因为当时博尔特的母亲在结婚时给母亲诃额伦带来了一件貂皮大衣作为礼物。
So he took the coat and he took it and he gave it as a gift to Wang Khan and asked for his help.
于是他拿了那件外套，他把它作为礼物送给了王汗，并请求他的帮助。
And Wang Khan said, “Yes.” He said, “I’ll send some troops, but we need more.
王汗说：“是的。”他说：“我会派遣一些部队，但我们需要更多。
And you need to ask Jamukha.
你需要问札木合。
You need to ask him to come also.” He said, “I will send a message to him to get troops.”
你得请他也来。”他说：“我会传话给他，让他调兵遣将。”
You have to tell the story of Jamukha.
你必须讲述札木合的故事。
23:28 Because the story of Genghis Khan is one of people abandoning him, being disloyal.
因为成吉思汗的故事就是一个人们抛弃他、不忠的故事。
And here is a person who’s not of his kin, but becomes his, in a way, brother, in a way, loyal.
这是一个不是他的亲属的人，但在某种程度上，他成为了他的兄弟，在某种程度上，他忠诚了。
And as you’ve described, he’s both the best thing to have happened to Genghis Khan and one of the biggest challenges in the later years to Genghis Khan.
正如你所描述的，他既是成吉思汗遇到的最好的事情，也是成吉思汗晚年面临的最大挑战之一。
So who was Jamukha?
那么札木合是谁？
Jamukha was a boy about the same age as Temüjin.
札木合是一个与铁木真年龄相仿的男孩。
24:01 And his family had winter camp close to where mother Hö’elün was living with her children.
他的家人在母亲诃额伦和孩子们居住的地方附近举办了冬令营。
And so the two boys met during the winter time.
就这样，两个男孩在冬天认识了。
In fact, they both claimed descent from the same woman about four generations earlier, or five.
事实上，他们都声称是同一位女性的后裔，大约是四代或五代之前。
It’s a little unclear.
有点不清楚。
She was a Uriankhai woman who herself was kidnapped, and actually Jamukha was the descendant of her from the fact that she was pregnant at the moment of kidnapping.
她是一位自己被绑架的乌里安凯妇女，而实际上札木合是她的后裔，因为她在被绑架时怀孕了。
And then Temüjin is descended from her through the new kidnapper, [foreign language 00:24:38], his ancestor.
然后铁木真是她的后裔，通过新的绑匪，[外语00:24:38]，他的祖先。
So they’re both through, as the Mongols would say, from the same womb.
因此，正如蒙古人所说，他们都来自同一个子宫。
They come from the same historic origin.
它们有着相同的历史渊源。
However, their lives were similar and they both lost their fathers very early.
然而，他们的生活很相似，而且都很早就失去了父亲。
But Jamukha also lost a mother.
但札木合也失去了一位母亲。
So he grew up in the household of his grandfather.
所以他是在祖父家里长大的。
He had no siblings, unlike Temüjin with a whole house full of siblings.
他没有兄弟姐妹，不像铁木真满屋都是兄弟姐妹。
He grew up with his grandfather and his grandfather had several wives.
他和祖父一起长大，祖父有好几个妻子。
25:06 So he grew up with a bunch of old women, which later he said he thought was an influence on his life.
所以他和一群老妇人一起长大，后来他说他认为这对他的生活产生了影响。
But the two boys meet.
但两个男孩相遇了。
So they come from different backgrounds.
所以他们来自不同的背景。
And Jamukha is not as deprived by any means as the life of Temüjin, but he has a certain emotional deprivation I think, having not had mother, father, siblings, and he lives with these old people.
札木合并没有像铁木真的生活那样被剥夺，但我认为他有一定的情感剥夺，因为他没有母亲、父亲、兄弟姐妹，而且他和这些老人住在一起。
The two boys meet, they become good friends playing on the ice.
两个男孩相遇后，他们成为了在冰上玩耍的好朋友。
And so they’re playing on the ice.
所以他们在冰上玩耍。
And then very early on, I think when they’re about 10 or 11 years old, they decide to make a pact.
然后很早的时候，我想当他们大约 10 或 11 岁的时候，他们就决定达成协议。
It’s called becoming anda.
这就是所谓的成为安达。
Anda is more than a friend.
安达不仅仅是一个朋友。
A friend is like [foreign language 00:25:49] in the language.
朋友就像语言中的[外语00:25:49]。
And there are several different types of friendship, but anda is a friendship that’s beyond a friendship.
友谊有几种不同类型，但安达是一种超越友谊的友谊。
It’s something for life.
这是一生的事情。
And they swore that they would be there forever to protect each other, to help each other in every moment.
他们发誓将永远互相保护，每时每刻互相帮助。
26:05 And they exchanged knucklebones.
他们还交换了指节骨。
So each one of them had the knuckle bone of a roebuck, a deer, a knuckle bones are used in these games that they play, but it’s also used to forecast the future.
所以他们每个人都有一只狍子、一只鹿的指节骨，他们玩的这些游戏中使用了指节骨，但它也用来预测未来。
You can roll them around and all.
你可以把它们滚来滚去。
And it’s very strange, on the ice, I will say in the wintertime in Mongolia, it can be up to 50 degrees below zero.
这很奇怪，在冰上，我想说的是，在蒙古的冬天，温度可能高达零下 50 度。
And it doesn’t really matter at that point, whether it’s even Celsius or Fahrenheit or what it is.
在那一点上，无论是摄氏度还是华氏度或者是什么都并不重要。
But you slide something across the ice and it’s just absolutely smooth like silk, and it goes on for a long way.
但是当你在冰上滑动一些东西时，它就像丝绸一样绝对光滑，并且可以持续很长一段距离。
And if you put your ear down to the ice, you hear this celestial sound that is unlike any sound on the earth.
如果你把耳朵贴在冰上，你会听到这种与地球上任何声音都不同的天体声音。
It’s just like the angels are singing under the ice.
就像天使在冰下歌唱一样。
So once they’ve sworn this relationship of anda, then a couple years later they swear it again, but this time they’re slightly older boys and they have bows and arrows, and so they exchange arrows with each other.
因此，一旦他们宣誓了这种安达关系，几年后他们就会再次宣誓，但这次他们是稍大一些的男孩，他们有弓和箭，所以他们互相交换箭。
27:05 In fact, the text is very specific that Jamukha took the horn, cut it off of a 2-year-old calf, and he whittled it down.
事实上，文本非常具体地表明，札木合拿起牛角，从一头两岁的小牛身上切下它，然后将其削下来。
And then he drilled a hole into it in order to make a whistling arrow, which is used for several purposes among the Mongols.
然后他在上面钻了一个洞，以制作一支呼啸箭，这种箭在蒙古人中有多种用途。
It’s used for signals for one thing, from one person to another.
它用于从一个人到另一个人的一件事的信号。
But also when you’re hunting, if you want to move the animal in a certain direction, you send a whistling arrow in the opposite direction to make the animal move.
而且当你打猎时，如果你想让动物朝某个方向移动，你可以向相反的方向发射一支呼啸箭来让动物移动。
So it had a lot of uses.
所以它有很多用途。
So the boys had exchanged roebuck knuckles, this time they exchanged…
于是男孩们交换了獐鹿指节，这一次他们交换了……
And so they had been close friends.
所以他们一直是亲密的朋友。
And Wang Khan said, “Okay, Jamukha should raise some troops and go with you.” And he did.
”王汗道：“好，札木合就派些兵力跟你走吧。他做到了。
27:53 So the three set out.
于是三人出发了。
Some troops from Wang Khan.
王汗的一些军队。
He himself did not go.
他本人没有去。
He was too old, but he sent some troops and then Jamukha and his troops, and then basically just Temüjin and his family, he just had his brothers.
他太老了，但他派了一些军队，然后是札木合和他的军队，然后基本上只有铁木真和他的家人，他只有他的兄弟。
That’s all.
就这样。
They set off to find the Merkit people up the Selenga River, which flows into Siberia and on into Lake Baikal.
他们出发沿着色楞格河溯流而上寻找梅尔基特人，色楞格河流入西伯利亚，最后流入贝加尔湖。
They had to go through some extremely rough territory.
他们必须经过一些极其崎岖的地区。
And you see in this episode though, Jamukha is already a little bit fierce without necessarily thinking it through carefully.
不过，在这一集中你会看到，札木合已经有点凶猛了，不一定要仔细考虑。
He gives this long speech about all the things they’re going to do to the Merkit people.
他发表了这篇长篇演讲，讲述了他们将为默基特人做的所有事情。
“We’re going to jump to the [inaudible 00:28:40], the smoke hole in the top of the ger.
“我们要跳到[听不清 00:28:40]，蒙古包顶部的烟孔。
We’re going to jump in there and we’re going to kill them all.
我们要跳进去，把他们全部杀掉。
We’re going to kill the men and the women and the children.
我们要杀掉男人、女人和孩子。
We will destroy these people forever.”
我们将永远消灭这些人。”
28:50 He has an extremely militant rhetoric at least.
他至少有极其激进的言辞。
And he’s also rather critical of the other people.
而且他对其他人也相当挑剔。
Wang Khan’s people came late and he gave them this long lecture about, “We are Mongols, and if we give our word, our word is our promise, forever.
王汗的人民来晚了，他给他们做了长篇大论：“我们是蒙古人，如果我们言出必行，我们的诺言就是我们的承诺，永远。
And rain or sleet or snow, it doesn’t matter.
雨、雨夹雪或雪，都没关系。
We be there on time.” So he’s dressing down his superiors.
我们准时到达。”所以他正在训斥他的上级。
He is very aggressive, but he’s very helpful.
他非常有侵略性，但也非常乐于助人。
So these troops, they move in on the Merkit camp.
所以这些部队，他们进驻了梅尔基特营地。
They also come in at night.
他们也在晚上进来。
And so there’s a small amount of warning because some men are out hunting sables, the Merkit men, and they race back to the camp and they tell the people, and the people are getting ready to get out as fast as possible.
所以有少量的警告，因为一些人出去狩猎紫貂，默基特人，他们跑回营地并告诉人们，人们正准备尽快撤离。
So Börte has no idea who’s coming.
所以博尔特不知道谁会来。
She doesn’t want to be kidnapped again, it’s just somebody.
她不想再次被绑架，只是有人。
29:48 So she and the grandmother [foreign language 00:29:52], and Sochigel, they’re loaded into a cart to go away.
所以她和祖母[外语00:29:52]和索奇格尔，他们被装进一辆手推车离开。
So Temüjin comes in.
于是铁木真进来了。
And there’s a full moon that night, so they could see what they’re doing, and he’s really searching for her.
那天晚上是满月，所以他们可以看到他们在做什么，而且他真的在寻找她。
He’s not paying too much attention to the battle.
他并没有过多关注这场战斗。
And he’s calling for her, and she hears his voice.
他在呼唤她，她听到了他的声音。
She knows who it is.
她知道那人是谁。
She jumps off the cart and she runs to him and they reunited and he grabs her, embraces her, and then he said, “This is the goal.
她跳下车，跑向他，他们重聚，他抓住她，拥抱她，然后他说：“这就是目标。
This is why we are here.
这就是我们在这里的原因。
We don’t need anything else.” He was very clear about that.
我们不需要任何其他东西。”这点他非常清楚。
And that was his first full on military engagement?
那是他第一次全面参与军事活动？
Yes, aside from the things…
是的，除了这些……
30:38 Yes, his first full on military engagement.
是的，这是他第一次全面参与军事活动。
Now, along the way, in addition to escaping all these horrors, he had killed his older half brother, Behter.
现在，一路上，除了逃离所有这些恐怖之外，他还杀死了他同父异母的哥哥贝赫特。
And that too was a deeply formative experience.
这也是一次深刻的塑造经历。
30:51 So what was that about?
那么那是关于什么的呢？
Can you explain in Mongol society, the role of the older brother and the power struggle there, and not to moralize, but there’s also the ethical foundation behind the murder?
您能否解释一下在蒙古社会中，哥哥的角色以及那里的权力斗争，而不是道德说教，但谋杀背后也有道德基础？
The killing of Behter, that’s one of the things that’s totally unknown outside of the Secret History of the Mongols, none of the Persian Chronicles, none of the Chinese Chronicles, none of them knew about this until the Secret History was deciphered and translated.
贝赫特尔被杀，这是蒙古秘史之外完全不为人所知的事情之一，波斯编年史、中国编年史都没有，直到秘史被破译和翻译之前，他们都不知道这件事。
31:12 But Behter was the older child of Sochigel.
但贝特是索奇格尔的大孩子。
The older brother has complete authority over the younger siblings in Mongolian society, they have to refer to him with a special pronoun all the time, ta.
在蒙古社会，哥哥对弟弟妹妹拥有完全的权威，弟弟妹妹们一直要用一个特殊的代词“ta”来称呼他。
And he refers to them as chi.
他将它们称为“气”。
It’s like a formality.
这就像一种形式。
And his word goes.
他的话确实如此。
He’s the father in the absence of the father.
在父亲不在的情况下，他是父亲。
But also it’s quite common that if a man dies and he has no brothers, or his brothers do not marry his widow, then if he has a son by another wife, she will become his wife.
但也很常见的是，如果一个男人死了，他没有兄弟，或者他的兄弟不娶他的寡妇，那么如果他有另一个妻子的儿子，她就会成为他的妻子。
32:10 So it would’ve been common that Behter eventually, when he passed through puberty, would then perhaps marry mother Hö’elün.
因此，当贝赫特尔度过青春期后，他最终可能会与母亲诃额仑结婚，这是很常见的。
Now, I don’t know that that happened, but I think either it did or Temüjin was trying to prevent it, because it was bad enough that he was the older brother, but he comes the older brother and the stepfather.
现在，我不知道这件事发生了，但我认为要么它发生了，要么铁木真试图阻止它，因为他是哥哥就已经够糟糕了，但他是哥哥和继父。
I think Temüjin just couldn’t handle that.
我认为铁木真无法处理这个问题。
And he was already, Behter was ordering around.
贝赫特已经开始发号施令了。
So he would take things like a fish or bird that Temüjin had caught, and that’s perfectly acceptable in the Mongol hierarchy.
所以他会拿铁木真捕获的鱼或鸟之类的东西，这在蒙古等级制度中是完全可以接受的。
So Temüjin would catch a fish and Behter would take the fish?
那么铁木真会抓到一条鱼，贝合帖儿会拿走这条鱼吗？
Yes, it’s only recorded once, but perhaps it happened several times.
是的，只记录了一次，但也许发生了好几次。
So that’s an okay thing to do for an older brother, just take stuff?
那么对于哥哥来说，拿东西就可以了？
Yes, he can do anything he wants just about with his younger siblings.
是的，他可以对弟弟妹妹做任何他想做的事。
33:04 But Temüjin is not going to stand for it.
但铁木真不会袖手旁观。
Mostly in the record, they kind of put the blame on this fish, which I’m not so sure that’s really the blame.
大多数情况下，他们都把责任归咎于这条鱼，但我不太确定这真的是罪魁祸首。
And the boys had actually taken the sewing needles from their mother.
男孩们实际上从他们的母亲那里拿走了缝衣针。
They were using them for fishing…
他们用它们来钓鱼……
I think it was more complicated than that.
我认为事情比这更复杂。
But for whatever reason, he and his next brother Qasar decided to kill him, and they did.
但无论出于何种原因，他和他的下一个兄弟卡萨尔决定杀死他，他们也这么做了。
Why to you, is it more complicated than that?
为什么对你来说，事情比这更复杂？
33:38 It feels to me like stealing of a fish is like the final straw.
对我来说，偷鱼就像是最后一根稻草。
Here he’s being abused over and over and over, and the fish is a symbol of that.
在这里，他一次又一次地受到虐待，而鱼就是这一点的象征。
And so here he takes matters into his own hands.
因此，他在这里将事情掌握在自己手中。
I think it is the symbol of that, and it can be the thing that pushes him over the edge, but it’s all these other tensions of what’s going on…
我认为这是这一点的象征，这可能是将他推向边缘的东西，但这是正在发生的所有其他紧张局势......
34:00 …
……
over the edge, but it’s all these other tensions of what’s going on with the family.
超出了边缘，但这是家庭中发生的所有其他紧张局势。
Because they shoot him with arrows, they kill him, but what happens afterwards is also interesting for the dynamics of what was going on before.
因为他们用箭射他，所以他们杀死了他，但之后发生的事情对于之前发生的事情的动态也很有趣。
Because we hear nothing from Sochigel.
因为我们没有收到索奇格尔的任何消息。
She and her younger son Belgutei, they stay with the family.
她和她的小儿子贝尔古泰和家人住在一起。
They don’t go away.
他们不会消失。
34:23 But the one who is outraged is mother Hö’elün, his mother.
但愤怒的是母亲诃额伦，他的母亲。
She screams and hollers at him in the longest kind of tirade you can imagine.
她用你能想象到的最长的长篇大论对他尖叫和大喊。
About, “You’ll never have anybody in your life except your own shadow, and you are worse than”…
关于“除了你自己的影子之外，你的生活中永远不会有任何人，而你比”更糟糕......
Everything that she could name that could be worse than.
她能说出的一切都可能比这更糟糕。
She was outraged and went on, and on, and on about it.
她很生气，继续说这件事。
34:47 So, she was obviously extremely distressed about it.
所以，她显然是非常苦恼的。
Whereas Sochigel, the mother of the boy, she may have been distressed, I don’t know, but nothing has shown up in the record.
而男孩的母亲索奇格尔可能很伤心，我不知道，但记录中没有显示任何内容。
So, he does have this episode of having killed off his brother.
所以，他确实有杀死他兄弟的这段情节。
But I don’t think it was a deeply meaningful, I think it was important, but I don’t think it was a mostly deeply meaningful for Temüjin.
但我不认为这具有深刻的意义，我认为这很重要，但我不认为这对铁木真来说具有最深刻的意义。
The brother was gone, the problem was solved, mother is extremely ticked off at him but…
哥哥走了，问题解决了，母亲对他非常生气，但是……
But it does show…
但它确实表明……
35:20 In fact, it’s interesting if it’s not a big deal for him.
事实上，如果这对他来说没什么大不了的话，那就很有趣了。
It does show that he’s willing to resort to murder to take care of a bad situation.
这确实表明他愿意诉诸谋杀来解决糟糕的情况。
Yes, he is capable of doing anything that needs to be done to resolve what he sees as a problem.
是的，他有能力做任何需要做的事情来解决他认为的问题。
35:34 Bekhter was a problem, he resolved it at a very young age.
贝克特是一个问题，他在很小的时候就解决了这个问题。
So, he’d had that experience behind him.
所以，他有过这样的经历。
But now Bekhter’s younger brother Belgutei is on the raid with him and with Jamukha when they go to capture Börte back.
但现在，贝克特尔的弟弟贝尔古泰正与他以及札木合一起参加突袭，以夺回博尔特。
So, he has both loyalty, and Belgutei stays loyal to him his entire life, his entire life.
所以说，他既有忠诚，贝尔古泰也对他忠心耿耿，一生一世。
It was very interesting.
这很有趣。
So, actually if we return to Börte, is it normal to have such a love story across many years when you’re separated, and sort of having that kind of loyalty?
那么，实际上，如果我们回到Börte，当你们分开多年时，有这样一个爱情故事，并且有那种忠诚，这正常吗？
36:11 Because it was two-way loyalty from Börte to Temüjin and Temüjin to Börte, and this is like before he was Chinggis Khan.
因为博尔特对铁木真和铁木真对博尔特是双向的忠诚，这就像他成为成吉思汗之前一样。
I think as children, he was too preoccupied with staying alive and trying to find fish and roots to eat and things like that, to really be pining for her all the time.
我认为作为孩子，他太专注于生存并试图找到鱼和树根来吃之类的东西，而没有真正一直渴望她。
36:31 But for whatever reason, she came.
但不管出于什么原因，她还是来了。
And it could be that her family liked him in some way, or that she remembered him, or that she had no other suitors because at 17 she should have been married actually.
也可能是她的家人在某种程度上喜欢他，或者她记得他，或者她没有其他追求者，因为她17岁时实际上应该结婚了。
36:59 So, I can’t explain why, but it was certainly a strong love story after the fact, if not before.
所以，我无法解释为什么，但这肯定是事后的一个强烈的爱情故事，如果不是事前的话。
I mean those two were loyal to each other throughout their lives.
我的意思是这两个人一生都对彼此忠诚。
Or she was, I would say, the most important person to him after that.
或者说，她是在那之后对他来说最重要的人。
He went to literal war to get her back.
为了让她回来，他发动了一场真正的战争。
He risked everything, he was willing to die.
他冒着一切风险，他甘愿去死。
37:20 He was willing to kill, he was willing to die in order to get her back.
为了让她回来，他愿意杀人，他愿意死。
And he got her back, and now he’s reestablished his relationship with Jamukha.
他把她找回来了，现在他与札木合重建了关系。
And so they decide to stay together and they all go off to the Olkhonud Valley.
于是他们决定呆在一起，然后一起前往奥尔洪努德山谷。
And she is pregnant, this becomes a huge issue forever.
而且她怀孕了，这成了永远的大问题。
37:54 It’s one of those things that to this day almost, it’s an issue and what happens.
直到今天，这仍然是一个问题以及发生的事情之一。
But as he says much later in life, when his own sons rebel against him, and they call that first child a Merkit bastard, he defends his wife viciously to his own sons.
但正如他在晚年所说，当他自己的儿子们反抗他，他们称第一个孩子是默基特私生子时，他在自己的儿子面前恶毒地维护了他的妻子。
He says, “You were not there.
他说：“你当时不在场。
You do not know who loved who and who did not.
你不知道谁爱谁，谁不爱谁。
You did not see the sky turning around.
你没有看到天空转动。
You did not see the stars falling.
你没有看到星星坠落。
You did not see the earth turn over.
你没有看到地球翻转。
You don’t know what was happening.
你不知道发生了什么。
And if I say he is my son, he is my son.
如果我说他是我的儿子，他就是我的儿子。
Who are you to say otherwise, you were not there.
你是谁，否则你不在那里。
You come from the same warm womb, and if your mother could hear your words, her warm womb would turn to cold stone.”
你们来自同一个温暖的子宫，如果你的母亲听到了你的话，她温暖的子宫就会变成冰冷的石头。”
38:45 So, he defended her forever.
所以，他永远守护着她。
But he’s off now…
但他现在已经下班了……
We go back to the beginning.
我们回到起点。
She’s pregnant, they are in the Olkhonud Valley, and he Jamukha decide to renew their vows of being anda to each other.
她怀孕了，他们在奥尔洪努德山谷，贾木卡决定重申他们彼此安达的誓言。
So, this time it’s more serious and it’s a ceremony in front of the whole…
所以，这一次更加严肃，是在众人面前举行的仪式……
We can’t say tribe, it’s not big enough yet for a tribe, but a whole clan that’s there.
我们不能说部落，对于一个部落来说还不够大，但那里有一个完整的氏族。
39:18 And then Jamukha takes off a gold belt, which actually he had stolen from the Merkit at some point.
然后贾木卡摘下了一条金腰带，这实际上是他在某个时候从梅尔基特偷来的。
And where on earth they got a gold belt?
他们到底从哪里得到金腰带？
I don’t know where.
我不知道在哪里。
He took off a gold belt and he put it on Temüjin.
他解下一条金腰带，戴在铁木真身上。
And then Temüjin gave him a mare who had never had a foal that had never given birth.
然后铁木真给了他一匹母马，这匹母马从来没有生过小马驹，也没有生过孩子。
And it was an unusual mare who had a little growth on the front of her head, which they called a horn.
这是一匹不寻常的母马，她的头前部有一个小突起，他们称之为角。
39:44 So, it was an unusual gift and don’t…
所以，这是一份不寻常的礼物，不要……
It has meaning, but I don’t know all the meanings behind it.
它有一定的意义，但我不知道它背后的所有含义。
It’s sort of odd to me.
这对我来说有点奇怪。
But the golden belt I didn’t think about it in different ways.
但金腰带我并没有以不同的方式思考。
But the belt for the Mongol man is really the sign of manhood.
但对于蒙古男人来说，腰带确实是男子气概的标志。
And in fact, just a belt, büse, a woman was often then and even now called a person without a belt because that’s how they were at that time.
事实上，只是一条腰带，büse，一个女人在当时甚至现在都经常被称为没有腰带的人，因为那是他们当时的样子。
40:12 Today, women wear belts, of course.
当然，今天的女性都佩戴腰带。
But they still use the word busgui, busgui with no belt.
但他们仍然使用busgui这个词，没有腰带的busgui。
So, it’s a very important symbol of manhood.
所以说，它是一个非常重要的男子气概的象征。
So, he gave that to Temüjin and they celebrated.
于是，他把它交给了铁木真，他们庆祝了。
And then the word told a secret history.
然后这个词讲述了一段秘密的历史。
They slept apart under the same blanket, apart from the other group, and they were happy together.
他们和其他人分开睡在同一条毯子下，他们在一起很开心。
And then when the baby was born to Temüjin named the baby Jochi, which means visitor.
当婴儿出生时，铁木真给婴儿起名叫术赤，意思是访客。
40:44 And some people say, “Well, it’s because the child was really the Merkit child.” Other people say, “No, it’s because he was a visitor on the territory of Jamukha at that time.” And other people can say, well, Jamukha’s ancestor who had been born from the kidnapped woman who was pregnant, that they had named that Jarigadi which meant foreigner.
有人说：“嗯，因为这个孩子确实是 Merkit 孩子。”还有人说：“不是，因为他当时是札木合境内的客。”其他人可以说，好吧，贾木卡的祖先是被绑架的怀孕妇女所生的，他们给那个名字命名为贾里加迪，意思是外国人。
So, it’s kind of like a parallel, the visitor, the foreigner.
所以，这有点像访客、外国人。
And so Jamukha’s clan took the name from him.
于是札木合氏族就从他那里取了这个名字。
They were called Jadaran, Jadaran.
他们被称为贾达兰、贾达兰。
So, there are all these things that sometimes we can’t quite understand because we don’t have the total mentality of that time, and we were not there.
所以，所有这些事情有时我们不能完全理解，因为我们没有那个时代的整体心态，我们也不在那里。
But we should say that…
但我们应该说……
41:27 I mean, it’s a pretty powerful part of this love story is that the child is likely not his.
我的意思是，这个爱情故事的一个非常重要的部分是这个孩子很可能不是他的。
And he accepted that child as his own.
他也接受了这个孩子，将其视为自己的孩子。
And defended it as it becomes much more important later as his first child.
并为它辩护，因为作为他的第一个孩子，它变得更加重要。
Yes, he defends this child through his entire life.
是的，他一生都在守护这个孩子。
41:47 But not long after the birth, he and Jamukha break apart.
但出生后不久，他和札木合就分手了。
Or really it’s Temüjin breaks apart at the urging of Börte.
或者实际上是铁木真在博尔特的催促下崩溃了。
She said, “He lords it over you too much.
她说：“他对你太专横了。
He orders you around too much.
他对你命令太多了。
You need to be free.
你需要自由。
We need to break away.” And she urged him, and he loved his wife more than anything.
我们需要脱离。”她催促他，他爱他的妻子胜过一切。
42:19 I think that in a certain way the most important other character in his life, adult life, would be the anda relationship.
我认为在某种程度上，他的生活、成年生活中最重要的另一个角色就是安达关系。
Which gets up being severely tested in the future years.
这将在未来几年受到严峻的考验。
But they run away through the night.
但他们连夜逃跑。
They go all night long to escape from him.
他们整夜都在躲避他。
But he obviously loved Börte the most and took the baby of course with them as well.
但他显然最喜欢博尔特，当然也带着孩子。
So, here’s this breaking point of the anda.
所以，这就是安达的突破点。
42:43 How did that relationship evolve?
这种关系是如何演变的？
The two of them never claimed to break it.
两人从未声称要打破它。
42:48 They had just separated.
他们刚刚分开。
Now, we have Wang Khan, the most powerful ruler on the Steppe who’s ruling out of Central Mongolia of the Kerait people.
现在，我们有王汗，草原上最强大的统治者，他统治着中蒙古的克赖特人。
And so Jamakha remains loyal to him, but at first, so does Temüjin.
因此，札马哈仍然忠于他，但一开始，铁木真也是如此。
They are both loyal to him, but they’re fighting in different kinds of campaigns, and all.
他们都忠于他，但他们在不同类型的战役中战斗，等等。
43:16 So, for a while they’re not fighting each other.
所以，有一段时间他们没有互相争斗。
But eventually some things happened that separate Temüjin.
但最终发生了一些事情，导致铁木真分开。
Temüjin was making all of these great victories for Wang Khan.
铁木真为王可汗取得了所有这些伟大的胜利。
And he even got the title Wang, which means…
而且他还得到了王的称号，这意味着……
from Chinese, meaning a prince or king.
源自汉语，意思是王子或国王。
Wang Khan received that from the Jin Dynasty because of all of these conquests against the Tatar people.
由于对鞑靼人的所有这些征服，王可汗从金朝那里得到了这一点。
43:45 So, Temüjin was rising up, and then he wanted his son to marry the daughter of Wang Khan, and Wang Khan said, “No.” His own son Senggum told the father, “No, no, no, no, we don’t marry those low people.
于是，铁木真就起来了，然后他想让儿子娶王汗的女儿，王汗说：“不。”他自己的儿子Senggum告诉父亲：“不，不，不，不，我们不嫁给那些低等人。
They’re Mongols.
他们是蒙古人。
They’re not like us.
他们不像我们。
We are Kerait people.
我们是凯莱特人。
We’re not going to marry them.”
我们不会嫁给他们。”
44:07 And so then now war, you could say, breaks out.
所以现在你可以说战争爆发了。
Or feud really, it’s more of a feud.
或者说真的是不和，这更像是不和。
And Temüjin has to flee far away into the east to a place called Baljuna.
铁木真不得不逃到遥远的东方，一个叫巴尔朱纳的地方。
And he goes to Baljuna, and at this time then Jamukha is going to fight on behalf of his Lord, Wang Khan.
他前往巴尔朱纳，此时札木合将代表他的主王汗而战。
The two of them do not meet in combat, but now their forces are fighting each other.
两人并没有交锋，但现在他们的势力却在交战。
And they didn’t see that.
他们没有看到这一点。
44:37 I mean, there’s an obvious tension there.
我的意思是，那里存在明显的紧张气氛。
There’s an obvious, if slight, breaking of loyalty, right?
这是一种明显的（即使是轻微的）忠诚度的破坏，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
44:46 It’s hard to know what’s going through their minds at that point.
很难知道他们当时在想什么。
We only have it later on when their relationship is being resolved in unfortunate ways.
只有当他们的关系以不幸的方式得到解决时，我们才会得到它。
They claim that neither one of them ever truly broke it, because they never harmed each other directly.
他们声称他们都没有真正打破过它，因为他们从未直接伤害过对方。
45:06 And in fact, then Temüjin eventually defeats Wang Khan.
事实上，铁木真最终击败了王可汗。
So, he takes over Central Mongolia, he’s starting to really rise up now.
所以，他接管了中蒙古，他现在开始真正崛起了。
And he has the title from his own people of Chinggis Khan.
而且他还拥有自己的子民成吉思汗的称号。
They give him that at Black Heart Mountain by the Blue Lake.
他们在蓝湖边的黑心山给了他这个。
It’s a very beautiful special place.
这是一个非常美丽特别的地方。
45:26 But he takes that title.
但他获得了这个头衔。
That’s not a title that anyone had ever held that we know of.
据我们所知，没有人曾拥有过这个头衔。
Chinggis Khan, it was a new title that he just thought up, or somebody thought up, or somebody thought it had auspicious meaning behind it.
成吉思汗，这是他刚刚想出来的一个新头衔，或者是有人想出来的，或者有人认为它背后有吉祥的含义。
It’s very close to the word tengiz, which means the sea.
它与“tengiz”一词非常接近，意思是“海”。
It could have had something to do with that.
这可能与此有关。
45:49 Mongolians really like, we might say puns of…
蒙古人真的很喜欢，我们可以说双关语……
they like words with meanings.
他们喜欢有含义的词语。
And that’s very important to them.
这对他们来说非常重要。
The more meanings a word has, the more power that word has, so if it has different meaning and different languages.
一个词的含义越多，它的力量就越大，所以如果它有不同的含义和不同的语言。
So, in the Mongolian, it sounds like strong Chin, Chinggis.
所以，在蒙古语中，听起来像“强钦”、“成吉思汗”。
But in the Turkic, and there are many Turkic people, including the Merkit themselves are mostly Turkic people.
但在突厥族中，也有很多突厥人，包括梅尔基特人本身也大多是突厥人。
It sounds like the sea, tengiz, tengiz.
听起来像大海，田吉兹，田吉兹。
So, it’s exciting to them when there’s this double meaning and the double meaning plays with each other, and that excites them.
因此，当存在这种双重含义并且双重含义相互作用时，这会让他们感到兴奋，这让他们感到兴奋。
Especially, with names.
尤其是有名字的。
46:25 I’m like today in Mongolia…
我就像今天在蒙古......
Well, I’ve been there so long, I think the fad has passed now.
好吧，我已经在那里呆了很长时间了，我想现在这种时尚已经过去了。
But about 20 years ago, it was popular to name children Misheel, girls.
但大约20年前，人们流行给孩子起名叫Misheel，即女孩。
Because it’s a French name, an American name, and it means smile in Mongolian.
因为它是一个法国名字，一个美国名字，蒙古语里是微笑的意思。
So, it’s the power of three great languages and three great civilizations.
所以，这是三种伟大语言和三种伟大文明的力量。
46:46 And so many names are like that.
还有很多名字都是这样的。
And so I think Chinggis it doesn’t have one meaning.
所以我认为《成吉思汗》没有任何意义。
I think it means powerful, it means the sea, I think it means many different things.
我认为它意味着强大，意味着大海，我认为它意味着很多不同的东西。
So, he had become a Khan, and he was ruling over him.
所以，他已经成为了可汗，他正在统治他。
And so Jamukha now switched loyalties to the next kingdom over called the Naiman people who are farther west.
因此，札木合现在转而效忠下一个王国，称为更西边的乃蛮人。
47:06 And he becomes the protege, you could say, of the Naiman people.
你可以说，他成为乃曼人的门生。
But when Chinggis Khan attacks the Naiman, Jamukha deserts the Naiman.
但当成吉思汗进攻乃蛮人时，札木合抛弃了乃蛮人。
He tells them, “These people have snouts of steel and they eat humans alive.” And he was telling him all these horrible things about the Mongols.
他告诉他们，“这些人有钢铁般的鼻子，他们会活活吃人。”他正在告诉他有关蒙古人的所有这些可怕的事情。
47:35 And Tayang Khan, the leader of the Naimans he was rightfully scared about them.
还有奈曼人的首领塔阳汗，他理所当然地害怕他们。
And he was left there, and he, in fact, was very quickly also defeated.
他被留在那里，事实上，他很快也被击败了。
So, Jamukha has not fought against Temüjin in this campaign.
所以，这次征战，札木合并没有与铁木真交战。
And he’s off with some of his people, Jadaran clan people.
他和他的一些人，贾达兰氏族的人一起离开了。
47:58 He’s off with them and they see the turning of the tide.
他和他们一起离开，他们看到了潮流的转变。
But he now wants to become the Great Khan of the Steppe.
但他现在想成为草原大汗。
He has very few followers, but he takes the title Gurkhan, which is a very old ancient important title.
他的追随者很少，但他的称号是古尔汗，这是一个非常古老的重要称号。
But because Wang Khan is gone, Toghrul Khan gone, he could take this title and pretend to be the great Khan of the Steppe, and all.
但因为王可汗走了，脱斡鲁尔汗走了，他可以冒充这个头衔，假装自己是草原上的伟大可汗，等等。
48:30 But his own people turn against him and they capture him, and they think they will take him to Chinggis Khan.
但他自己的人民却背叛了他，并俘虏了他，他们认为可以把他带到成吉思汗那里。
It’s now Chinggis Khan.
现在是成吉思汗。
They’ll take him and they’ll be rewarded perhaps for turning him in.
他们会带走他，也许会因为举报他而得到奖励。
And Chinggis Khan does reward them immediately.
成吉思汗确实立即奖励了他们。
He kills them all because they have betrayed their leader who is his anda.
他杀死了他们所有人，因为他们背叛了他们的领袖，也就是他的安达。
It’s a very strange encounter.
这是一次非常奇怪的遭遇。
And so supposedly Chinggis Khan says to him, “Come back to me, save me, be beside me, protect me, be my shadow, be my safety guard in life.” And supposedly Jamukha says, “But I did betray you when my people fought against you, and you will always know that, and you will never completely trust me.
据说成吉思汗对他说：“回到我身边，拯救我，在我身边，保护我，成为我的影子，成为我生命中的安全卫士。”据说札木合说：“但是当我的人民与你们作战时，我确实背叛了你们，你们永远都知道这一点，你们永远不会完全信任我。
I’ll be like a louse underneath the collar of your tunic.
我会像你外衣领子下面的虱子一样。
I’ll be like a thorn in the lapel of your dell.”
我会像你戴尔翻领上的一根刺。”
49:43 He said, “Kill me without shedding my blood, let me die.
他说：“杀了我，不让我流血，让我死吧。”
And if you do, take my remains up to a high place and bury me, and I will be the guard, I’ll be the protector for you and your people forever.” So, they obviously, Tamujan did not participate in the killing, but he ordered the killing.
如果你这样做了，就把我的遗骸带到高处埋葬我，我将成为你和你的人民的守护者，永远的保护者。”所以，他们显然，塔木詹并没有参与杀戮，而是他下令杀戮的。
And he was either…
而他要么是……
It’s not specified how he was killed without shedding the blood, but the Mongols had several ways.
没有具体说明他是如何在不流血的情况下被杀死的，但蒙古人有几种方法。
50:21 Because the most honorable way to die was without shedding blood.
因为最光荣的死法就是不流血。
The blood contains part of the soul, and if you lose it, you’re losing your soul before you die.
血液中含有灵魂的一部分，如果你失去了它，那么你在死前就失去了灵魂。
So, they usually wrap them up in felt carpets and then beat them to death or trample them to death with horses, something like that.
所以一般都是用毡毯把他们裹起来，然后打死，或者用马踩死，之类的。
There are a couple other methods, but I think that’s probably the method by which Jamukha was killed.
还有其他几种方法，但我认为这可能就是杀害札木合的方法。
50:43 And so he was killed, and then Temüjin or Chinggis Khan had his remains taken up and buried in a high place.
于是他被杀了，然后铁木真或成吉思汗把他的遗骸抬起来埋在高处。
This is over near Tuva, which is today part of Russia.
这是在图瓦附近，图瓦是今天俄罗斯的一部分。
But until the 20th century it was a part of Mongolia.
但直到20世纪它还是蒙古的一部分。
The Tuvan people very, very close culturally to the Mongols.
图瓦人在文化上与蒙古人非常非常接近。
It seems that both of them under the anda relationship had a deep value for loyalty.
看来安达关系下的两人都对忠诚有着很深的看重。
51:04 And so it’s not worth living after you’ve been disloyal, which is the Jamukha perspective, right?
所以，在你不忠诚之后，就不值得活下去了，这就是札木合的观点，对吗？
He had become very practical at this point, and he understood that you needed complete total loyalty and trust with everybody around you.
此时他变得非常实际，他明白你需要对周围的每个人完全忠诚和信任。
51:21 And I think for this reason, he was willing either say, to accept the plea of Jamukha, and when Chinggis Khan was asking him to come back, and to be his shadow, and to be his safety guard.
我想正是因为这个原因，他才愿意说，接受札木合的请求，当成吉思汗要求他回来，做他的影子，做他的护卫。
Again, maybe that was just a formality that he knew would be rejected.
再说一次，也许这只是他知道会被拒绝的形式。
Or maybe when Jamakha offered to be killed without shedding blood, that was a formality that he thought would not be followed through.
或者，也许当贾马卡提出不流血而被杀时，他认为这只是一种形式，不会被遵循。
Nevertheless, to me, just reading your work and understanding this history, this relationship seems like a really, really important relationship that defines the nature of loyalty for Chinggis.
然而，对我来说，只要阅读你的作品并了解这段历史，这种关系似乎是一种非常非常重要的关系，它定义了成吉思汗忠诚的本质。
I would say in both negative and positive ways, it was the most important relationship of his adulthood aside from Börte.
我会从消极和积极的角度说，这是他成年后除了博尔特之外最重要的关系。
52:19 But that relationship really did not seem to have many negative aspects.
但这种关系似乎确实没有太多负面影响。
They sometimes disagreed on things, but small things.
他们有时会在一些小事上产生分歧。
So, she was by him and she was positive in every regard so far as we know forever.
所以，她就在他身边，据我们所知，她在各方面都是积极的。
52:41 Although she was not submissive but she was always on his side.
虽然她并不顺从，但她始终站在他一边。
And Jamakha, he was just a little too hot-headed for me.
还有贾马哈，他对我来说有点太急躁了。
I mean, in my evaluation of him.
我的意思是，在我对他的评价中。
That these things like, “Oh, we’re going to drop down on the Merkit and we’re going to come through the smoke hole, kill everybody,” and all.
这些事情就像，“哦，我们要降落在 Merkit 上，我们要穿过烟洞，杀死所有人，”等等。
And he had a flair for the dramatic, even in a way of giving the gold belt to Temüjin.
他具有戏剧性的天赋，甚至在将金腰带授予铁木真方面也是如此。
53:08 But Jamakha also explained himself at the end of life, and he said, “We both lost our father, but I also lost my mother.
但贾马哈也在生命的尽头解释了自己，他说：“我们都失去了父亲，但我也失去了母亲。
And you had a strong mother to raise you, I did not.” And he said, “You had Börte, you have a very strong wife to help you.
你有一个坚强的母亲来抚养你，而我却没有。”他说：“你有博尔特，你有一位非常坚强的妻子来帮助你。
And my wife, just used a word like prattler, like she just sort of complains and prattles along, and we did not have a relationship.”
而我的妻子，只是用了“喋喋不休”这样的词，就像她只是在抱怨、喋喋不休，而我们并没有建立关系。”
53:40 So, I think something about that rings true, that there were some elements of that that were true.
所以，我认为这听起来是真的，其中有一些元素是真的。
But Jamakha certainly didn’t have the intelligence and the real genius for dealing with people, dealing with soldiers, especially in warfare that Temüjin had.
但贾马哈肯定不具备铁木真所拥有的与人打交道、与士兵打交道的智慧和真正的天才，尤其是在战争方面。
Yeah, in that relationship, there’s a contrast because Chinggis Khan did not accumulate riches or accumulate power in a way that was for the sake of the riches or for the sake of the power.
是的，在这种关系中，存在着对比，因为成吉思汗并没有以为了财富或权力的方式积累财富或权力。
54:02 He was always very practical in what is the way to maximize the success of this operation.
他对于如何最大限度地提高这次行动的成功总是非常务实。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
54:24 I often wonder, what happened to the gold belt?
我常常想，金腰带怎么了？
It disappeared from the story.
它从故事中消失了。
And a gold belt doesn’t just disappear.
金腰带不会凭空消失。
What happened to that?
那是怎么回事？
It’s so interesting because Temüjin was never interested in material goods.
这很有趣，因为铁木真对物质产品从来不感兴趣。
And when as Chinggis Khan, as the ruler, in some ways you could say, became the richest man in the world, because he controlled the most wealth flowing through him.
当成吉思汗作为统治者时，在某些方面你可以说成为世界上最富有的人，因为他控制着流经他的最多的财富。
54:50 But he always dressed simply.
但他总是穿着简单。
He always lived in the tent and he said, “I eat what my soldiers eat.
他总是住在帐篷里，他说：“我的士兵吃什么，我就吃什么。
I dressed the way my soldiers dressed.
我的穿着和我的士兵的穿着一样。
I lived the way my soldiers live.
我和我的士兵一样生活。
We are the same.” So, he had no interest in the wealth.
我们是一样的。”所以，他对财富没有兴趣。
And Jamakha, he had sided before with Wang Khan, which was very advantageous because they had more trade goods and wealthier people, and all.
至于贾马哈，他之前曾站在王汗一边，这非常有利，因为他们拥有更多的贸易货物和更富有的人民等等。
But he just didn’t have the temperament, I think, that was going to be helpful for Chinggis Khan’s continued rise.
但我认为，他只是没有那种气质，这对成吉思汗的持续崛起是有帮助的。
That is one of the powerful things about the Chinggis Khan stories.
这是成吉思汗故事的强大之处之一。
55:23 He came from nothing.
他是白手起家的。
From absolute nothing.
从绝对的无。
And he didn’t, from what I see and understand, become sort of corrupted by the riches or changed.
据我所见和理解，他并没有因财富而腐化或改变。
55:29 He fundamentally remained the same person who does not have value for material things.
他本质上还是那个对物质没有价值的人。
He changed and matured in various ways over life as we all do, or we hope we do.
他在一生中以各种方式改变和成熟，就像我们所有人所做的那样，或者我们希望我们这样做。
55:42 But he never became avaricious in any way.
但他从来没有以任何方式变得贪婪。
He was never greedy.
他从来不贪心。
He was never acquisitive.
他从来不贪婪。
He kept a simple life.
他保持着简单的生活。
And part of the simple life for him meant that no one was allowed to write about him.
对他来说，简单的生活意味着没有人可以写关于他的事情。
No one was allowed to make his likeness.
没有人被允许制作他的肖像。
They couldn’t paint a picture of him.
他们无法画出他的照片。
They couldn’t make a statue of him.
他们无法为他制作雕像。
No building could be built dedicated to him.
没有任何建筑物可以专门为他建造。
No palace, no tomb, no temple of any sort.
没有宫殿，没有坟墓，没有任何类型的寺庙。
Not even, at the point of death, the simplest gravestone.
甚至在死亡时，连最简单的墓碑都没有。
Nothing, nothing.
没什么，没什么。
It’s fascinating that a kid, like a boy that doesn’t know the world would have the intelligence to understand how corrupting that is.
令人着迷的是，一个孩子，就像一个不了解世界的男孩，竟然有智慧去理解这有多么腐败。
56:19 The moment somebody builds a statue of you, it’s like a slippery slope.
当有人为你建造雕像的那一刻，就像一个滑坡。
Doors becoming…
门成为……
Not seeing the world clearly.
看不清这个世界。
Not seeing surrounding yourself with sycophants that don’t tell you the information.
不要看到自己周围都是不告诉你信息的阿谀奉承者。
Not being able to select the right people to lead the armies or to lead the territories that you conquer.
无法选择合适的人来领导军队或领导你征服的领土。
So, it’s interesting that he had that foresight of don’t record, don’t worship.
所以，有趣的是，他有不记录、不崇拜的先见之明。
That’s because that’s a dangerous road to go down for a leader.
那是因为对于领导者来说这是一条危险的道路。
And it’s very hard to explain how he stuck to that, how he got it.
很难解释他是如何坚持这一点、如何得到它的。
57:00 You’re so easily corrupted by power, and yet he maintained this very fierce attitude towards his relationship with the people around him, his guard mostly, or his private part of the army that went with him, the central part of the army.
你很容易被权力腐蚀，但他对周围人的关系却保持着这种非常激烈的态度，主要是他的警卫，或者他随行的军队的私人部分，军队的核心部分。
That was his relationship, his family.
那是他的关系，他的家人。
He had four wives.
他有四个妻子。
This was what was important to him.
这对他来说很重要。
And in fact, no portrait was painted until 1278.
事实上，直到 1278 年才绘制肖像。
Well, by then he’d already been dead for 51 years.
那时他已经去世 51 年了。
And then no statue until the 21st century.
然后直到21世纪才出现雕像。
Just incredible.
简直难以置信。
57:46 But let’s go to the document that you referenced several times, the Secret History.
但让我们看看你多次提到的文件，《秘史》。
The Secret History is a very unusual document, and I happen to love it very much.
《秘史》是一份非常不寻常的文件，而我恰好非常喜欢它。
57:53 But I said, Chinggis Khan allowed nothing to be written about him in his lifetime.
但我说过，成吉思汗在他的一生中不允许任何关于他的记载。
The people couldn’t take notes.
人们无法记笔记。
Even the army was not…
就连军队也没有……
He, Chinggis Khan ordered the invention of the alphabet for the Mongol people.
成吉思汗下令为蒙古人民发明字母。
And it was adapted from the Uyghur people.
它是根据维吾尔族改编的。
58:14 And so to this day, it’s often called the Uyghur alphabet, the Uyghur alphabet.
所以直到今天，它通常被称为维吾尔字母、维吾尔字母。
So, he had ordered that, and he’d ordered his children to learn to read and write.
所以，他命令了这一点，他命令他的孩子们学习读书和写作。
And some did, I think most did not, but some did.
有些人做到了，我想大多数人没有，但有些人做到了。
But one of the things he did with every campaign, even the one with the Merkit when he rescued Börte was he always adopted one orphan.
但他在每次战役中所做的一件事，甚至是在他拯救博尔特时与 Merkit 一起进行的战役中，他总是收养一名孤儿。
58:41 And that child became a full member of the Mongol nation and his household.
这个孩子就成为了蒙古民族和他的家庭的正式成员。
His mother Hö’elün would raise the child.
他的母亲诃额伦抚养这个孩子。
So, she eventually had a whole household full of boys of different tribes, but they all became very high-ranking members of the government.
所以，她最终有一整个家庭充满了不同部落的男孩，但他们都成为了政府的高级官员。
And one was the Tatar boy who turned out not to be so great as a soldier, but he could read and write, he was the best.
其中一个是鞑靼小伙子，他虽然作为一名士兵并不出色，但是他能读书写字，他是最优秀的。
And later eventually, he became the supreme judge appointed by Chinggis Khan, of course.
当然，后来他最终成为了成吉思汗任命的最高法官。
And so when Chinggis Khan died, he recognized it was important not just to write down the law, that’s all Chinggis Khan allowed to be written in blue books, only the law.
因此，当成吉思汗去世时，他认识到重要的不仅仅是写下法律，成吉思汗只允许写在蓝皮书中，只有法律。
Nothing about him or campaigns or military, anything,
没有任何关于他、竞选或军事的事情，
59:27 But Shigi Qutuqu, was his name.
但Shigi Qutuqu，是他的名字。
Shigi Qutuqu realized that this was going to be lost, that this is a great historic thing that has happened.
Shigi Qutuqu意识到这将会丢失，这是已经发生的伟大的历史性事件。
So, he compiled the work.
于是，他编撰了这部作品。
A part of it he…
其中一部分他...
I don’t know other people contributed, helped him, just a little bit unclear.
我不知道其他人有没有贡献、帮助过他，只是有点不清楚。
The Mongols, they don’t specify that.
蒙古人，他们没有具体说明这一点。
So, they always tell you exactly where something happens so we know exactly where it happened.
因此，他们总是告诉您事情发生的确切地点，以便我们确切地知道事情发生的地点。
In Mongolia, you can still go to that spot where he wrote it.
在蒙古，你仍然可以去他写这本书的地方。
That’s very important to the Mongols.
这对蒙古人来说非常重要。
59:55 And we also know it as the year of the Mao, so it was 1228, Chinggis Khan had died at 1227.
我们也知道它是毛年，所以是1228年，成吉思汗在1227年去世。
So, he wrote down, it begins with what we would say are the myths, although I’m not sure they’re myths, but the origins of the myths.
所以，他写道，它从我们所说的神话开始，虽然我不确定它们是神话，但神话的起源。
It begins with the marriage of a Gray-Blue Wolf with a Tawny Deer.
故事始于灰蓝狼与黄褐色鹿的婚姻。
1:00:14 Then some people say, “Well, that’s some kind of myth.
然后有些人说：“好吧，那是某种神话。
It’s totemic.” And Mongols mostly, they look at me, I asked them about this.
这是图腾。”大多数是蒙古人，他们看着我，我问他们这件事。
They said, “What?
他们说：“什么？
He was named Blue-Gray Wolf, she was named Tawny Deer.
他的名字叫青灰狼，她的名字叫黄鹿。
They married.” They are very practical about it, and they think they’re real people.
他们结婚了。”他们对此非常实际，他们认为自己是真实的人。
Maybe they were or not, I don’t know.
也许他们是或不是，我不知道。
1:00:36 So, this earlier history is just the Genealogy as it should be, who knows?
那么，这段更早的历史只是家谱，它应该是这样，谁知道呢？
But it’s also in there because like Bodonchar, they call it Bodonchar the Fool, the ancestor of Temüjin.
但它也在那里，因为像博顿恰尔一样，他们称其为愚者博顿恰尔，铁木真的祖先。
He’s cast out because he’s just so dumb.
他被赶出了家门，因为他太蠢了。
The rest of the family doesn’t want him.
家里其他人都不要他了。
And his father is undetermined who he was.
而他的父亲也无法确定他是谁。
He kidnapped the Ö’elün Üjin woman.
他绑架了鄂伦乌金女子。
She has the child who becomes the ancestor, Temüjin.
她生下的孩子就是铁木真的祖先。
1:01:00 So, it’s a confusing mess.
所以，这是一个令人困惑的混乱。
But I tend to think it’s probably accurate.
但我倾向于认为这可能是准确的。
It has a lot of good information.
它有很多好的信息。
And by the time you get to the life of Temüjin, the reason we know these intimate things is because that person Shigi Qutuqu, he was there.
当你谈到铁木真的生活时，我们之所以知道这些亲密的事情是因为那个人Shigi Qutuqu，他就在那里。
Sleeping in the same gear with the people.
与人睡在同一档位。
So we even see in there, he will record instances where Börte sits up in bed and tells her husband, “Okay, you got to do this.
所以我们甚至在那里看到，他会记录 Börte 坐在床上告诉她的丈夫的实例，“好吧，你必须这样做。
You got to do that.
你必须这样做。
You can’t do this anymore.
你不能再这样做了。
We can’t think of”…
我们想不到”...
It’s all recorded, right?
都记录下来了，对吧？
1:01:30 So, it’s a very intimate document.
所以，这是一份非常私密的文件。
And this is one reason that it was secret, it was only for the family.
这也是秘密的原因之一，只是为了家人。
They were trying to uphold Chinggis Khan’s prohibition against putting out information about the family.
他们试图遵守成吉思汗禁止公布有关该家庭的信息的禁令。
So, it was a secret for a very long time.
所以，这在很长一段时间内都是一个秘密。
So, much so that scholars began to think it didn’t exist.
以至于学者们开始认为它不存在。
1:01:50 And then in the 19th century, a Russian academic who was working in China at the time, in Beijing.
然后在 19 世纪，一位当时在中国北京工作的俄罗斯学者。
He discovered a manuscript which was very, very odd that people didn’t think was anything because it’s all Chinese characters, but it makes no sense in Chinese.
他发现了一份非常非常奇怪的手稿，人们认为这没什么，因为它都是汉字，但它在中文中毫无意义。
But he recognized, but if you read it, pronounce it, it makes sense to a Mongolian.
但他认得，但是如果你读它，发音它，这对蒙古人来说是有意义的。
And so it was in this code that had been used to record the information in Chinese.
因此，正是在这段代码中，用中文记录了信息。
So, they were recording the sounds.
所以，他们正在记录声音。
The sounds, correct.
声音，正确。
1:02:26 They used Chinese characters to record sounds.
他们用汉字来记录声音。
Which is always problematic in some little areas here, not exactly sure what the name is or something like…
在这里的一些小区域总是存在问题，不确定名称是什么或类似的东西......
But it was a very unusual document.
但这是一份非常不寻常的文件。
And then once they found it, they realized that some of the Persian documents had incorporated part of that already.
然后，当他们找到它时，他们意识到一些波斯文件已经包含了其中的一部分。
1:02:47 So, that was very helpful to me because some of the Persians I trust very much, and I liked their work very much.
所以，这对我非常有帮助，因为我非常信任一些波斯人，而且我非常喜欢他们的工作。
And so it was helpful that it already existed.
因此，它已经存在是有帮助的。
And some of it existed in other Mongolian sources that were written later.
其中一些存在于后来编写的其他蒙古语资料中。
Some of it was just incorporated.
其中一些刚刚被合并。
1:03:06 So, it seemed to be fairly genuine, but it wasn’t a hundred percent pure.
所以，看起来是相当真实的，但并不是百分百纯净的。
It had…
它有……
Little things had happened to it along the way.
一路上也发生过一些小事。
Some things have been stepped here and there, and a few words changed.
有些事情已经被改了，有些话也改了。
Sometimes for Temüjin, they call him Chinggis Khan.
有时，铁木真被称为成吉思汗。
Well, he wasn’t the Khan then.
好吧，那时他还不是可汗。
And sometimes they call him Khan, which is like chief, and other times Khan, which is Emperor.
有时他们称他为可汗，就像酋长一样，有时则称他为可汗，即皇帝。
Well, in Mongolian, it’s a big difference.
嗯，在蒙古语中，这是一个很大的区别。
1:03:31 So, there are little things like this that move around that you’re not sure why.
所以，有些像这样的小东西会四处移动，你不确定为什么。
But it’s a document that I have great faith in.
但这是我非常信任的一份文件。
It was not published in English until 1982, but Francis Woodman Cleaves at Harvard University translated it in the 50s.
该书直到 1982 年才以英文出版，但哈佛大学的弗朗西斯·伍德曼·克利夫斯 (Francis Woodman Cleaves) 在 20 世纪 50 年代翻译了它。
It was ready for publication, and he was having trouble with the publisher.
该书已准备好出版，但他与出版商之间出现了麻烦。
And so it didn’t appear for nearly 30 years.
就这样，它在近30年的时间里都没有出现。
1:03:55 And it was supposed to be two volumes.
它应该是两卷。
The first volume is the translation, the second volume was going to be the notes, and the second volume was lost.
第一卷是译文，第二卷是笔记，第二卷已经遗失了。
To this day, it hasn’t been found.
直到今天，还没有找到。
I would love to see that.
我很想看到这一点。
But anyway, now it’s in all languages, just about in the world.
但无论如何，现在它已经有了所有语言版本，几乎全世界都有。
Can you clarify?
你能澄清一下吗？
1:04:14 So there’s two volumes, the 19th century Chinese manuscript covers the first volume.
所以有两卷，19世纪的中国手稿涵盖了第一卷。
Yes, that was translated and then published by Harvard University.
是的，哈佛大学翻译并出版了它。
1:04:23 But the notes were just the notes from the scholar, Francis Woodman Cleaves.
但这些笔记只是学者弗朗西斯·伍德曼·克利夫斯的笔记。
Those were his notes, not Mongolian notes.
那是他的笔记，不是蒙古笔记。
I got it.
我得到了它。
There are Chinese notes that went with it because the Chinese had trouble understanding a lot of things in it.
里面有中文注释，因为中国人很难理解里面的很多东西。
1:04:34 And they also, they disapproved of some things, so they would try to put their own notes in the margins to kind of correct the story and explain in a way why the Mongols women would be often marrying their stepson.
他们也，他们不赞成某些事情，所以他们会尝试在页边空白处写下自己的注释，以纠正故事并以某种方式解释为什么蒙古妇女经常嫁给他们的继子。
It just did not match with Confucian ethics.
这根本就不符合儒家伦理道德。
So, there’s several things like that that they try to skip around.
所以，他们试图跳过一些类似的事情。
But so it’s interesting just to read the Ming Dynasty notes that are attached to it.
但仅仅阅读其所附的明朝注释就很有趣。
But the document itself, Mongolian Nuuts Tovchoo, it’s just so important.
但这份文件本身，蒙古语 Nuuts Tovchoo，却非常重要。
And for me it was the guiding document.
对我来说，这是指导性文件。
I didn’t want to be guided by anything else, first.
首先，我不想被其他任何东西引导。
1:05:21 Everything else I would check to correlate and fill in blanks and give more information.
我会检查其他所有内容以关联并填写空白并提供更多信息。
But I went to Mongolia to travel around to those places because they are so exact in there, and to feel it.
但我去蒙古是为了去那些地方旅游，因为那里的景色是如此的精确，并且去感受它。
And it’s so important, I think, because your history does not live in books.
我认为这非常重要，因为你的历史并不存在于书本中。
History does not live in archives or even libraries, as much as I need them for my work.
历史并不存在于档案馆甚至图书馆中，尽管我的工作需要它们。
1:05:45 But history lives in the people.
但历史存在于人民之中。
History lives in the memory of the people and the culture.
历史存在于人民和文化的记忆中。
And for example, the episode with the kidnapping of Börte.
例如，贝尔特被绑架的那一集。
So, I went to that place and I didn’t know when it happened, what season it happened.
所以，我去了那个地方，我不知道它发生在什么时候，发生在什么季节。
It was very important for figuring out the bursts that came afterwards and other events that were being correlated.
这对于弄清楚随后发生的爆发和其他相关事件非常重要。
1:06:06 Very important to me.
对我来说非常重要。
And so I’m just talking to the people who live in that valley, the nomads there.
所以我只是和住在那个山谷里的人、那里的游牧民族交谈。
They said, “Oh, it’s clear, it was the winter.” I said, “Oh, where did you read that?” He said, “No, granny Kuoqchin was on the ground, and she could feel the vibrations.” She said, “Look, this is summertime now.
他们说：“哦，很明显，那是冬天。”我说：“哦，你从哪里读到的？”他说：“没有，郭琴奶奶在地上，她能感觉到震动。”她说：“看，现在是夏天。
You’re not going to feel any vibrations the ground here is so soft.” Suddenly a whole important piece that I’ve been searching for just came together from some nomad sitting there next to his horse.
你不会感觉到任何震动，这里的地面很软。”突然间，我一直在寻找的一件重要的作品就从坐在他的马旁边的某个游牧民族那里得到了。
1:06:44 And he was absolutely right.
他是绝对正确的。
It could only happen in the winter.
这只能发生在冬天。
And that also correlates with the time that reading was done.
这也与阅读完成的时间相关。
So, it correlates with other historic factors.
因此，它与其他历史因素相关。
But then that gave me the time basis for figuring out a lot of other things.
但这给了我解决很多其他事情的时间基础。
History lives in the people.
历史存在于人民之中。
Just to link on that point, you visited different places that were important to the story of Chinggis Khan.
为了链接到这一点，您访问了对成吉思汗的故事很重要的不同地方。
1:06:59 What did it feel like?
感觉如何？
What are some memorable things about just the experience of standing there?
站在那里的经历有哪些值得纪念的事情？
Yes.
是的。
1:07:16 I really set out mostly to visit the cities he had conquered across Central Asia and all.
我的出发点主要是去参观他在中亚和其他地区征服的城市。
And there was so little to learn.
而且要学的东西太少了。
I mean, everything was kind of known of whatever the Chroniclers had recorded, the archeologists had found whatever they had found.
我的意思是，无论编年史家记录了什么，考古学家都发现了他们发现的一切，一切都是已知的。
And I get there, and he hadn’t spent much time there, he didn’t identify with it, I wasn’t feeling anything.
当我到达那里时，他并没有在那里呆太多时间，他不认同那里，我没有任何感觉。
1:07:37 But in Mongolia, I would go to these places and I would know…
但在蒙古，我会去这些地方，我就会知道……
If Chinggis Khan came back today, he would know exactly where he is.
如果成吉思汗今天回来，他就会知道自己在哪里。
There’s no road, there’s no sign, there’s no building, there’s no power line going to…
没有路，没有路标，没有建筑物，没有电线……
nothing.
什么也没有。
And just to smell the air, to feel it, to see the animals, and to see what kind of animals live here, what kind of plants are growing here, you begin to get a-
只要闻闻空气，感受它，看看动物，看看这里生活着什么样的动物，这里生长着什么样的植物，你就会开始感觉到——
1:08:00 …
……
here.
在这里。
What kind of plants are growing here?
这里生长着什么植物？
You begin to get a feeling for how he was thinking and then you begin to see, ah, I know which direction they came from, the only direction they could come from was that way.
你开始感觉到他在想什么，然后你开始看到，啊，我知道他们来自哪个方向，他们唯一能来自的方向就是那个方向。
You begin to see it and his life starts to unfold in a very dramatic way that I have the text or the text is it has no scenery, no props, nothing like that.
你开始看到它，他的生活开始以一种非常戏剧性的方式展开，我有文字，或者文字是它没有风景，没有道具，什么都没有。
The Mongols all understand their way of life, they don’t need to explain anything.
蒙古人都明白他们的生活方式，不需要解释任何事情。
They know which way the ger faces with the sun, they know all these things but, for me, that’s how I learned it, it was from being with the people, it was the most important thing and this was starting in the 1990s and the people, at this time, they were amazed that I would come.
他们知道蒙古包面向太阳的方向，他们知道所有这些事情，但对我来说，这就是我学到的，这是从与人们在一起开始的，这是最重要的事情，这是从 20 世纪 90 年代开始的，当时人们对我会来感到惊讶。
1:08:51 The Soviet era had just ended, socialism was just ending, democracy was starting and Genghis Khan had been forbidden to them for almost the entire century and every known descendant of Genghis Khan was killed in Mongolia following the secret history, that became the key to writing what I wrote.
苏联时代刚刚结束，社会主义刚刚结束，民主正在开始，成吉思汗几乎整个世纪都被禁止进入，每一个已知的成吉思汗后裔都在蒙古被杀害，这是秘密历史的一部分，这成为我写这篇文章的关键。
Take the history, which is difficult to understand, you have to go over and I often never understand different parts or I change my mind and think it was yes now it’s no but the secret history is a valuable document.
就拿历史来说，它很难理解，你必须回顾一遍，而我常常无法理解不同的部分，或者我改变主意，认为是的，现在却不是，但秘密历史是一份有价值的文件。
And to me, also, it’s the opening document of Mongolian written language and I think it’s very important how do people begin their written language and they begin it with the words [foreign language 01:09:45], from highest heaven came the destiny of the blue wolf who is married to the tawny deer and their descendants who came from the Great Sea to live at the base of Mount Burkhan-Khaldun.
对我来说，它也是蒙古书面语言的开篇文献，我认为人们如何开始他们的书面语言是非常重要的，他们以[外语01:09:45]这个词开始，从最高的天堂来了与黄鹿结婚的青狼的命运，以及他们的后代从大海来到不儿罕合勒敦山脚下居住的命运。
And then integrating the spiritual elements of nature, the mountains and the Great Sea and this deep connection to nature that they have.
然后融合自然、山峦和大海的精神元素以及它们与自然的深厚联系。
Mongolia is a world that, for the most part, is the same as when Genghis Khan was there, we cannot say that far to any other place in the world.
蒙古是一个在很大程度上与成吉思汗时代相同的世界，我们不能说与世界上任何其他地方相差甚远。
1:10:15 Certainly not for America but, just a few hundred years ago, it was entirely different, people, languages, everything.
当然对美国来说不是这样，但就在几百年前，美国的人民、语言、一切都完全不同。
But you can’t say it for London or Moscow or Istanbul, Constantinople, all of these things have changed so much but Mongolia is still Mongolia.
但你不能说伦敦、莫斯科、伊斯坦布尔、君士坦丁堡，所有这些事情都发生了很大变化，但蒙古仍然是蒙古。
It’s one of the largest countries in the world and space with the fewest number of people about, today, 3.3 million and they’re spread out and they live in their environment in such an intimate way.
它是世界上面积最大的国家之一，人口最少，目前只有 330 万，而且他们分散在不同的地方，以一种非常亲密的方式生活在自己的环境中。
This was important for learning about Genghis Khan, how he thought, how he hunted, how he strategized for war, you learn that from the people today because they’re still there, they’re still living.
这对于了解成吉思汗非常重要，他是如何思考的，他是如何狩猎的，他是如何制定战争战略的，你可以从今天的人们那里了解到这些，因为他们仍然在那里，他们仍然活着。
What’s the open Mongolian steppe like?
开阔的蒙古草原是什么样的？
1:11:10 As we return to the feeling of Temujin and Genghis Khan, what’s it like looking at this place that has not changed since this time?
当我们回到铁木真和成吉思汗的感受时，看着这个至今未曾改变的地方，是什么感觉？
The first thing I think about this steppe is that you can see forever in every direction.
看到这片草原，我的第一感觉是，你可以从各个方向看到永远。
1:11:22 There’s no building, nothing to stop your line of view and it’s like being in the ocean in many ways.
没有任何建筑物，没有任何东西可以阻挡您的视线，在很多方面都就像置身于海洋中。
So, you have this extremely open space and the wind is usually blowing through it but it’s extremely fresh, it’s coming out of Siberia, it’s coming out of the Arctic, it sweeps down across Mongolia, cold as a dickens sometimes but it’s always fresh, always fresh.
所以，你有一个非常开放的空间，风通常吹过它，但它非常新鲜，它来自西伯利亚，它来自北极，它席卷蒙古，有时冷得像狄更斯，但它总是新鲜的，总是新鲜的。
So, you have the wind coming in, you have the smell of the wind but also then there’s grass, the smell of grass becomes very important.
所以，有风吹进来，有风的气味，还有草，草的气味变得非常重要。
Now, because of the particular location, from one year to another, one area may have grass one year and then drought the next year, another area has grass so you don’t always know.
现在，由于位置特殊，年复一年，一个地区可能一年有草，第二年干旱，另一个地区有草，所以你并不总是知道。
If it’s not grass, it’s dust.
如果不是草，那就是灰尘。
You have dust flowing in, the dust doesn’t smell so good, it doesn’t feel so good but that’s just one more part of the country.
有灰尘流入，灰尘闻起来不太好，感觉不太好，但这只是这个国家的另一部分。
1:12:28 The waters are mostly pure.
水大多是纯净的。
Now, unfortunately, there has been pollution in this century from mining in several areas but, even when I was there or even today when we go to some place like the Selenga River where we talk about the market lived, so it’s a place of pure waters and that’s how Mongolians define their world is by the water.
现在，不幸的是，本世纪以来，几个地区都出现了采矿污染，但是，即使当我在那里时，甚至今天，当我们去像色楞格河这样的地方时，我们谈论市场居住的地方，所以这是一个纯净的水域的地方，这就是蒙古人如何通过水来定义他们的世界。
Genghis Khan does not give lands to his sons to rule, he gives waters and people to rule.
成吉思汗并没有将土地交给他的儿子们来统治，而是将水和人民交给了他的儿子们来统治。
They do not refer to the earth as land, they refer to the earth as dalai, ocean, the sea.
他们不把地球称为陆地，他们把地球称为达赖、海洋、大海。
And so, water is very important and, to learn the rules about water, you don’t camp by water.
因此，水非常重要，为了了解有关水的规则，你不能在水边露营。
If you can’t by water, your animals and you are going to be polluting it, messing it up so they’re back, maybe in our modern terms, about a kilometer back.
如果你不能通过水，你的动物和你就会污染它，把它弄乱，所以它们会回来，也许用我们现代的话来说，大约一公里后。
You take the animals to the river to drink and then you take them away.
你把动物带到河边喝水，然后把它们带走。
You do not bathe in that river, you take the water away from the river and you bathe away from the river so you do not pollute the river.
你不在河里洗澡，你把水从河里取走，你在远离河的地方洗澡，这样你就不会污染河。
1:13:41 The rules are very strict and very clear and they’re from the time of Genghis Khan about how to deal with …
这些规则非常严格、非常明确，从成吉思汗时代就开始规定如何处理……
But also, it’s dangerous to live close to the river because there are flash floods in the summertime, you could suddenly have it and it could wipe away if your camp is right there by the water.
而且，住在靠近河边的地方也很危险，因为夏天会发生山洪，如果你的营地就在水边，你可能会突然发生洪水，洪水可能会被淹没。
So, the people, they live with nature in a way that I don’t see anywhere else in the world.
所以，人们以一种我在世界其他地方看不到的方式与自然共处。
And even today with the changes with the cell phone and with solar panels and they could get TV out in the middle of the steppe, still they’re living a similar life.
即使在今天，随着手机和太阳能电池板的出现，人们可以在草原上看电视，他们仍然过着相似的生活。
The young people, of course, want to drive a motorbike but they’re still herding cows and yaks and camels.
年轻人当然想开摩托车，但他们仍在放牛、牦牛和骆驼。
If it’s on a motorbike, okay, they’re still doing it the Mongol way.
如果是在摩托车上，好吧，他们仍然按照蒙古人的方式做。
But then, if we go to the time of Temujin, of Genghis Khan, another component is the horses.
但是，如果我们回到铁木真、成吉思汗时代，另一个组成部分就是马。
1:14:28 Can we talk about their relationship with the horse?
我们能谈谈他们和马的关系吗？
Thinking about this open steppe, from a young age, all Mongols are trained to master riding horses.
想想这片开阔的草原，所有蒙古人从小就接受骑马训练。
As you write, while standing on the horse, so they learn how to ride while standing on the horse from a young age.
当你写的时候，站在马上，所以他们从小就学会了如何站在马上骑马。
While standing on the horse, they often jostled with one another to see who could knock the other off.
站在马上，他们经常互相推撞，看谁能把对方撞倒。
When their legs grew long enough to reach the stirrups, they were also taught to shoot arrows and to lasso on horseback making targets out of leather pouches that they would dangle from poles so they would blow in the wind.
当他们的腿长到足以到达马镫时，他们还被教导在马背上射箭和套索，用皮袋制作目标，将目标挂在杆子上，这样它们就可以在风中吹动。
The youngsters practice hitting the targets from horseback at varying distances and speeds, the skills of such play proved invaluable to horsemanship later in life.
孩子们练习在马背上以不同的距离和速度击中目标，事实证明这种比赛技巧对以后的马术有着无价的价值。
Can you speak to the relationship of Genghis Khan and the Mongols to horses?
您能谈谈成吉思汗和蒙古人与马的关系吗？
The Mongol and the horse are inseparable.
蒙古人和马是密不可分的。
1:15:36 I wrote one line in the book that the editor removed because that was insulting.
我在书中写了一行，编辑删除了，因为那是侮辱性的。
I said, the Mongol and the horse, they live together, they know each other with every twitch of the muscle and they smell the same.
我说，蒙古人和马，他们生活在一起，他们肌肉的每一次抽动都认识彼此，他们的气味也一样。
Well, I was saying it just not to be insulting about anything but they have that deep intimacy and the horses do know their owner from the smell.
好吧，我这么说并不是为了侮辱任何事情，但它们之间有着深厚的亲密关系，而且马确实可以通过气味认出它们的主人。
This is very important.
这非常重要。
It’s also important for Genghis Khan because they made the flags, what they call [foreign language 01:16:05], out of the horse hair from their own horses.
这对成吉思汗也很重要，因为他们用自己的马匹的马毛制作了他们所说的[外语 01:16:05] 的旗帜。
And so, in battle, they used it for a very practical purpose and that is the horses would return to their source because they knew the smell of their flag, it was other members of their own herd.
因此，在战斗中，他们将其用于非常实际的目的，那就是马匹会返回源头，因为它们知道旗帜的气味，那是他们自己马群的其他成员。
1:16:23 So, the language itself, I have never ever mastered all the words just for the colors of horses, much less for all the other things about it.
所以，就语言本身而言，我从来没有掌握过马的颜色的所有单词，更不用说掌握有关它的所有其他内容了。
I can remember, Mongolians, being out there in the countryside, they say, “Oh, I want to learn English.” I say, “Okay.
我记得，蒙古人在农村时会说：“哦，我想学英语。”我说：“好吧。
Yeah, that’s nice, you teach me some words in Mongolian, I teach you some words.” “Okay.” They say, “What color is that horse?” I say, “Brown,” they would say, “Brown.” I’d say, “Yes, okay.
是啊，太好了，你教我一些蒙古语单词，我教你一些单词。” “好的。”他们说：“那匹马是什么颜色的？”我说“棕色”，他们会说“棕色”。我会说：“是的，好吧。
What color is that horse?” “Brown.” Then they said, “But you said this color was brown, what color is this?”
那匹马是什么颜色的？” “棕色的。”然后他们说：“但是你说这个颜色是棕色，那这是什么颜色？”
1:16:56 I said, “Well” …
我说：“好吧”……
It’s just amazing.
这真是太棒了。
They have words based on how smooth the coloring is and the variation in the texture and all the different …
他们根据着色的平滑程度、纹理的变化以及所有不同的……来表达。
Today in English, sometimes you can put them together, we say yellow brown or brown brown or black.
今天在英语中，有时你可以把它们放在一起，我们说黄棕色或棕色棕色或黑色。
But the words for horses, of course, by sex and then they have three because they have geldings and so they’re very important too and by age and by whether or not they’ve reproduced in the case of the females, all these things are important parts of the horse and the horse.
但是，对于马来说，当然是按性别，然后他们有三个，因为它们有骟马，所以它们也非常重要，按年龄以及它们是否繁殖（就雌性而言），所有这些都是马和马的重要组成部分。
And the horse …
还有马……
1:17:34 A few years ago, a presidential candidate ran under the slogan raised in the dust of many fast horses.
几年前，一位总统候选人打着众多快马扬起的口号参选。
It just resonates with the Mongolian spirit and the dust itself is important.
它恰好与蒙古精神产生共鸣，灰尘本身很重要。
The Mongolians, they will wipe the sweat and the dust off the horse and wipe it onto their own forehead which is the most sacred part of the body where the soul resides.
蒙古人会擦去马身上的汗水和灰尘，然后擦到自己的额头上，额头是身体最神圣的部分，也是灵魂所在。
This is how intimate a relationship is with the horses and they’re hard on them in some ways, they train them very well, they ride them very hard but the horses are also trained for that.
这就是与马的关系有多亲密，他们在某些方面对马很严厉，他们训练得很好，他们骑得非常努力，但马也为此接受了训练。
They use a very small crop, it’s a little bit like a stick with a slight whip at the end, that they hit the rump of the horse, never anything else.
他们使用非常小的嗉囊，有点像一根末端带有轻微鞭子的棍子，它们击中马的臀部，而不是其他任何东西。
They’re horrified at Western people who use metal spurs and metal to harm the horse in the stomach.
他们对西方人用金属马刺和金属伤害马胃的做法感到震惊。
And to harm the head of a horse, they say it’s a capital crime.
他们说伤害马头是死罪。
I don’t know anyone who’s ever executed for it but you never ever harm a horse’s head.
我不知道有谁因此而被处决，但你永远不会伤害马的头。
1:18:43 So, the horses are important in every way, even religiously important with the making of the fermented horse’s milk that the mother goes out every morning and she throws some to each of the four directions to start the day and they use it for every kind of thing.
因此，马在各个方面都很重要，甚至在宗教上也很重要，因为母亲每天早上都会出去，向四个方向各扔一些马奶来开始新的一天，他们用它来做各种各样的事情。
But some things puzzled me that, in my watching, I remember one day being with a very nice family, it happened to be on a gelding day when they were out there gelding the would-be stallions who don’t get to be stallions.
但有些事情让我感到困惑，在我的观察中，我记得有一天和一个非常好的家庭在一起，那天碰巧是骟马日，他们在那里骟那些可能不会成为种马的种马。
But this family, they had a bunch of boys and only one or two girls, there were four or five boys and one boy was maybe 11 years old, he fell from the horse.
但是这个家里，有一堆男孩，只有一两个女孩，有四五个男孩，一个男孩大概11岁，他从马上摔了下来。
You could see it not so far away, he fell from the horse and he didn’t get up.
不远处就能看到，他从马上摔下来，再没有起来。
No one moved.
没有人动。
In fact, they all turned attention away and I thought, what am I supposed to say?
事实上，他们都转移了注意力，我想，我应该说什么？
“This boy fell down, somebody go get him.” No.
“这孩子摔倒了，快来人扶他吧。”不。
1:19:44 And then the boy was trying to hobble back, he still had the reins to his horse, but he couldn’t remount and he was trying to hobble back so his little brother went out to help him come in and they came into the ger and they sat down, the mother just turned her back.
然后男孩试图一瘸一拐地向后退，他的马还握着缰绳，但他无法重新上马，他正试图一瘸一拐地向后退，所以他的弟弟出去帮他进来，他们走进了蒙古包，他们坐下来，母亲只是转过身去。
And I’m thinking, how on earth can you do this?
我在想，你到底怎么能做到这一点？
This is a child, this is your child.
这是一个孩子，这是你的孩子。
But two weeks later, by chance, another boy who is practicing for Naadam, the annual races this boy had been doing, he was often in an area right close to the mountain area and the horse bolted, took off through the woods, he was knocked off by a tree and then the horse went deeper into the woods, the boy followed him, the boy became lost.
但两周后，一个偶然的机会，另一个正在练习那达慕的男孩，这个男孩每年参加的比赛，他经常在靠近山区的地方，马儿狂奔，穿过树林，被一棵树撞倒，然后马儿深入树林，男孩跟着他，男孩迷路了。
The boy was 12 years old, he was lost for two weeks and he lived.
这个男孩12岁，他失踪了两周，但他活了下来。
I would’ve died in 48 hours, he lived.
48 小时内我就会死，而他却活了下来。
1:20:37 He said, well, he slept in the daytime when it was warm, he walked at night when it was cold, even though this was the summertime, the nights can be quite cold especially on a mountain, and he sang loudly all night long to keep the wolves away.
他说，嗯，白天暖和的时候睡觉，晚上冷的时候走路，虽然现在是夏天，晚上特别冷，尤其是在山上，他还彻夜大声唱歌，驱赶狼群。
And he knew what to eat and then he walked until he found water moving and then he would follow that water down to the …
他知道要吃什么，然后他一直走，直到发现水在流动，然后他会顺着水流到……
He lived and I realized, the boy falls from the horse, his mother’s not going to be there, she knows that.
他活了下来，我意识到，男孩从马上摔下来，他的母亲不会在那里，她知道这一点。
And it’s probably hard for her too to see her boys suffer but she knows.
看到她的孩子们受苦，她可能也很难过，但她知道。
Just a small tangent.
只是一个小切线。
1:21:13 There’s a wrestler named Cary Kolat and he tells the story about mental toughness, that the first time he saw truly mentally tough people was when he visited Mongolia for a wrestling tournament.
有一位摔跤手名叫卡里·科拉特，他讲述了一个关于坚强的故事，他第一次见到真正坚强的人是在他去蒙古参加摔跤比赛时。
And he remembered that they were taking showers in ice-cold water and, all the other wrestlers, they would take the shower and then, when the water hits them, you could see a little grimace.
他记得他们在冰冷的水中洗澡，而所有其他摔跤手，他们会洗澡，然后，当水击中他们时，你可以看到一些鬼脸。
With the Mongols, it was emotionless.
对于蒙古人来说，是没有感情的。
So, ice-cold water or any other kind of hardship, you build a hardness to that.
所以，冰冷的水或任何其他类型的困难，你都会为其建立硬度。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
And I suppose that falling from the horse is just an example of that.
我想从马上摔下来只是一个例子。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
There’s a mental hardness and a mental toughness.
有一种精神上的硬度和一种精神上的韧性。
You have to be able to take care of yourself.
你必须能够照顾好自己。
1:22:03 And with the weather, for example, often in that time, and still today, some people, if they can have the privacy to do it, the men will strip naked in the first heavy snow and roll around in the snow in order to prepare for the coming winter.
以天气为例，当时经常如此，直到今天，有些人，如果可以有隐私的话，男人们会在第一场大雪中脱光衣服，在雪地里打滚，为即将到来的冬天做准备。
And the valley where I lived, a lot of wrestlers come there to train in the summertime for the competition and the water is very cold coming down from the mountain and, every day when there’s a break, they go down, they take …
我住的山谷里，很多摔跤手在夏天来这里训练参加比赛，从山上流下来的水很冷，每天休息的时候，他们都会下去，他们会……
Again, they do not get in the water, never but they take the water and they pour the cold water over themselves and, yes, it’s refreshing to them, refreshing.
再说一次，他们不会下水，从来不会，但他们接过水，然后把冷水倒在自己身上，是的，这对他们来说很清爽，很清爽。
Well, then, getting back to the horses, the value they had for the horses and the horse riding skill they developed throughout their life created one of the most unstoppable military forces in history.
好吧，那么，回到马匹，他们对马匹的价值以及他们一生培养的骑马技能创造了历史上最不可阻挡的军事力量之一。
1:22:49 So, if we just talk about the mounted archery that they’ve employed in war.
所以，如果我们只谈论他们在战争中使用的骑马射箭。
The Mongols were able to do targeted shooting accurately at 200 meters or more while riding fast, up to speeds of 60 kilometers an hour, I read.
我读到，蒙古人能够在 200 米或更远的距离上进行精确的定点射击，同时骑行速度可达每小时 60 公里。
So, there’s a lot to say.
所以，有很多话要说。
You have to time, and just watching some of the videos, it’s just incredible how stable you could be on top of a horse and I guess you’re supposed to be shooting at a moment of the gallop when all four of the feet of the horse are off the ground.
你必须花时间，只要观看一些视频，你就能在马背上保持如此稳定，我想你应该在马的四只脚都离开地面的驰骋时刻进行拍摄。
And so, you have to time all of that, you have to position your body to maintain balance and then there’s the skill of the actual holding and shooting the bow accurately and there’s, obviously, the technology of the bow, the composite bow, the recurve bow.
所以，你必须计时所有这些，你必须调整你的身体以保持平衡，然后是实际准确握弓和射箭的技巧，显然还有弓、复合弓、反曲弓的技术。
1:23:52 They’ve also, I read, used crossbows later, they’ve adapted the technology and there’s a particular kind of a thumb draw that you use for shooting with the composite bow that works for a horse.
我读到，他们后来也使用了弩，他们改进了这项技术，并且有一种特殊的拇指拉法，可以用来用适用于马的复合弓进行射击。
The thing is bouncing up and down, so you have to not drop the arrow.
这东西会上下弹跳，所以你不能让箭头掉下来。
It’s just incredible to be able to shoot while the horse is going 60 kilometers an hour.
当马以每小时 60 公里的速度行驶时，能够进行射击真是令人难以置信。
Anyway.
反正。
Can you speak to this exceptional excellence that Genghis Khan and the Mongols had for riding horses and engaging in war off of the horse?
您能谈谈成吉思汗和蒙古人在骑马和骑马作战方面的卓越表现吗？
The Mongol, the horse and the bow were a perfect combination and it was the most lethal weapon known to the world before the modern era.
蒙古人、马和弓是完美的结合体，是近代之前世界上已知的最具杀伤力的武器。
1:24:31 It was incredible the synchronization and the timing of the movements and also the years of skill.
动作的同步性和时机以及多年的技巧令人难以置信。
The fact that, from absolute birth, the Mongols would be on a horse and, by three years old, they would probably be riding alone on the horse.
事实上，从出生起，蒙古人就会骑着马，到三岁时，他们可能会独自骑在马上。
Now, when I first went to Mongolia in the 1990s, at that time, all jockeys on horses for races had to be under six years old.
现在，当我在20世纪90年代第一次去蒙古时，当时所有参加比赛的骑师都必须在六岁以下。
That was the age limit, the cut-off was six years old at that time and so you had some as three years old racing out there.
那是年龄限制，当时的界限是六岁，所以有一些三岁的孩子参加比赛。
It’s absolutely incredible.
这绝对令人难以置信。
And of course, at that age, they can’t even have a saddle because it can’t even be used so all they’re doing is staying on the horse, the horse has been trained to do what it has to do and they just stay on it.
当然，在那个年纪，他们甚至没有马鞍，因为它甚至不能使用，所以他们所做的就是呆在马背上，马已经被训练去做它必须做的事情，他们只是呆在马背上。
1:25:29 But by staying on it, they learn the horse, they become one and, not just one horse with one rider, but one rider with several horses.
但通过坚持下去，他们学会了马，他们成为一体，不仅仅是一匹马和一个骑手，而是一个骑手和几匹马。
Usually, five is the number that you should have for you when you go off to battle and this ability to shoot.
通常，五是当你去战斗时你应该拥有的数字和射击能力。
You have to defend your animals, there are wolves around, foxes, other things, in some areas, there were even tigers and other animals that would come in and you had to be able to shoot to defend it against other people who might be raiding you.
你必须保护你的动物，周围有狼，狐狸，其他东西，在某些地区，甚至有老虎和其他动物会进来，你必须能够射击来防御其他可能袭击你的人。
So, they became excellent archers that had composite bows that were very powerful, much more powerful than those of most sedentary people.
因此，他们成为了优秀的弓箭手，拥有非常强大的复合弓，比大多数久坐的人的弓强大得多。
Now, I say all that because it’s very important but those are all nomadic traits of the great steppe anyway.
现在，我之所以这么说，是因为这非常重要，但无论如何，这些都是大草原的游牧特征。
In an earlier version, you had the huns who came out of Mongolia and hun is just the Mongolian word for human.
在早期版本中，有来自蒙古的匈奴人，而“匈奴”只是蒙古语中“人类”的意思。
Hun, to this day, that’s what they say for a human being.
匈奴，直到今天，这就是他们对人类的说法。
So, they came out of Mongolia and all the early Turkic groups came out of Mongolia and they had similar skills.
所以，他们来自蒙古，所有早期的突厥族群都来自蒙古，他们有类似的技能。
1:26:40 So, you have this perfect weapon but also you have to have perfect strategy and how to coordinate it and organize it and use it and this is where the genius that I cannot explain at all but the genius of Genghis Khan came in.
所以，你有这个完美的武器，但你也必须有完美的策略，以及如何协调、组织和使用它，这就是我无法解释的天才的所在，但成吉思汗的天才就出现了。
Other people, I think, had been very good in earlier times, a number of Turkic leaders or even Attila the Hun who, of course, was actually born in the West but they were charismatic leaders and very dramatic leaders and it wasn’t that they were so excellent in their strategy, they were very good in warfare and that’s what carried them through.
我认为，其他人在早期也非常优秀，一些突厥领导人，甚至是匈奴阿提拉，当然，他实际上出生在西方，但他们是有魅力的领导者和非常戏剧性的领导者，并不是因为他们的战略如此出色，而是因为他们非常擅长战争，这就是他们成功的原因。
1:27:20 Genghis Khan’s army was extremely good in warfare but small.
成吉思汗的军队作战能力极强，但规模却很小。
He never got probably above 100,000, at the most 110,000.
他从来没有超过10万，最多11万。
That is small.
那很小。
When you’re going against China that has millions just in the army, not to count in the country, and you’re going against Russia and you’re going against the Middle East and Persia and Afghanistan and these areas, your whole army has to be as finely tuned as each rider, each bow and each horse.
当你对抗拥有数百万人军队的中国时，当你对抗俄罗斯、对抗中东、波斯、阿富汗和这些地区时，你的整个军队必须像每个骑手、每把弓和每匹马一样精细调整。
That’s the weapon but the army becomes the super weapon of Genghis Han, how he organized it, on how he used it and the strategies that he put together.
这就是武器，但军队成为成吉思汗的超级武器，取决于他如何组织它、如何使用它以及他制定的战略。
Yeah.
是的。
1:28:04 When you have a small army …
当你有一支小军队时……
Just think about that.
想想看。
A small army that conquered the world.
一支小军队征服了世界。
It would fit in a stadium today in America.
它适合今天美国的体育场。
So, there’s extreme efficient coordination of units, mostly cavalry, right?
那么，部队（主要是骑兵）之间的协调非常有效，对吧？
All cavalry.
都是骑兵。
It was all cavalry?
都是骑兵？
He had no infantry and he had no baggage train, he had no backup commissary, early on, no engineer corps, later one was added, much later.
他没有步兵，没有辎重列车，没有后备军需物资，早期没有工兵部队，后来又增加了一个，很久以后。
1:28:26 But no, all cavalry.
但不，都是骑兵。
And so, there’s light cavalry and heavy cavalry and breaking down units using the decimal system, 10, 100, 1,000 so there’s a hierarchy where you delegate authority but, to the degree there’s commands, they must be followed strictly.
因此，有轻骑兵和重骑兵，并使用十进制系统分解单位，10、100、1,000，因此存在一个层次结构，您可以在其中委派权力，但在一定程度上有命令，必须严格遵守。
Yes.
是的。
So, for extremely efficient, accurate, precise deployment of these troops in the battlefield and the dynamic movement of the troops, including all the interesting tactics that were utilized, you have to have really good communication and coordination and, for that, orders must be followed.
所以，要在战场上极其高效、准确、精确地部署这些部队，以及部队的动态移动，包括所使用的所有有趣的战术，你必须有很好的沟通和协调，为此，必须遵守命令。
Yes.
是的。
Is there something to speak to that?
对此有什么可说的吗？
1:29:25 How do you tune this kind of system to where everybody is working together so well?
您如何调整这种系统，使每个人都能很好地合作？
I think the first point is the extreme loyalty of the people whom Genghis Khan chose.
我认为第一点是成吉思汗所选择的人民的极端忠诚。
1:29:31 His kinsmen, as we said, had deserted him, his anda was a questionable relationship but all the others that he found were just common people, herders or hunters, very common, and they were loyal to him and never, ever revolted against him, never betrayed him.
正如我们所说，他的亲戚抛弃了他，他的安达关系值得怀疑，但他发现的其他人都只是普通人，牧民或猎人，非常普通，他们忠于他，从来没有反抗过他，从来没有背叛过他。
So, he had extreme loyalty.
所以，他的忠诚度极高。
And then, as you mentioned, he organized as decimal system so the smallest unit of the army was the [foreign language 01:30:04], the squad of 10 men.
然后，正如你提到的，他以十进制组织，所以军队的最小单位是[外语01:30:04]，10人的小队。
They were put together and then, the head of that squad, he had total control over it but the men knew that they were going to protect each other and they had to come back with every member or every body, you don’t leave anybody behind.
他们被组合在一起，然后，作为那个小队的队长，他完全控制了一切，但人们知道他们要互相保护，他们必须带着每个成员或每个人回来，你不会留下任何人。
So, this was extremely important.
所以，这是非常重要的。
1:30:25 So, if you submit to the orders of the man in charge, you know that he’s risking his own life for you also and you know that your brother on the left and on the right is risking his life for you.
所以，如果你服从负责人的命令，你就知道他也在为你冒着生命危险，你也知道你左边和右边的兄弟也在为你冒着生命危险。
The army, they were organized with five horses each man, they had their bow and they had a lot of arrows, as many as they could have, but they also retrieved arrows at the end of their battle and they also would retrieve the enemy arrows.
他们的军队，每人五匹马，他们有弓，有很多箭，能有多少就多少，但他们也会在战斗结束时收回箭，也会收回敌人的箭。
This was a great advantage, by the way, when they hit Russia because the Russians could not use Mongolian arrows, they could knock them in their bow but the Mongols could use Russian arrows.
顺便说一句，这是一个很大的优势，当他们攻击俄罗斯时，因为俄罗斯人不能使用蒙古箭，他们可以用弓击倒他们，但蒙古人可以使用俄罗斯箭。
1:31:05 So, all these little things but it’s not even just the arrow, also they had to carry needle and thread.
所以，所有这些小东西，但不仅仅是箭头，他们还必须携带针和线。
Every soldier had to be able to sew and sometimes that could be a torn garment, it could be a piece of skin or a wound that somebody has.
每个士兵都必须能够缝纫，有时这可能是一件撕破的衣服，也可能是一块皮肤或某人的伤口。
It was a very odd thing when you think about the army of Genghis Khan and they’re carrying everything themselves, they don’t have any pack train behind them and that one of the things they have to carry is needle and thread in order to sew up things.
当你想到成吉思汗的军队时，这是一件非常奇怪的事情，他们自己携带所有东西，他们身后没有任何驮车，而他们必须携带的东西之一就是用来缝合东西的针和线。
So, complete self-reliance in that regard.
因此，在这方面完全自力更生。
Yes.
是的。
1:31:38 They also carried dried dairy products, aaruul it’s called, dry curd and they can keep it for a couple of years even.
他们还提供干乳制品，称为aaruul，干凝乳，甚至可以保存几年。
But you dry it and then, when you need it, you can put it in a flask of water, you ride all day, it joggles up and down, boom, boom, boom and turns into thick protein.
但是你把它晒干，然后，当你需要它的时候，你可以把它放在一瓶水中，你骑了一整天，它上下摇晃，繁荣，繁荣，繁荣，变成浓稠的蛋白质。
It’s said that the Mongols could easily go three to five days without ever building a fire, they had enough food.
据说，蒙古人可以轻松地度过三五天而不生火，他们有足够的食物。
They would …
他们会……
1:32:04 So, all these little things at the lowest level were important as well at the highest level of his loyalty of his men to him and it went all the way down.
因此，所有这些最低级别的小事情对于他的部下对他的忠诚度的最高级别来说都很重要，而且一直在下降。
Loyalty was extremely important and he organized the army into left wing, right wing or east and west.
忠诚极其重要，他将军队分为左翼、右翼或东西两翼。
Mongols, the word for left is east, the word for right is west so those two wings and then in the middle was the [foreign language 01:32:30], the center, this moving center that was his bodyguard and his unit in the middle.
蒙古人，左边的词是东，右边的词是西，所以那两个翅膀，然后中间是[外语01:32:30]，中心，这个移动的中心是他的保镖和他在中间的部队。
1:32:39 Then usually they would have a vanguard and a rearguard and sometimes the vanguard would go out as much as two years in advance to clear the land, run the people away, scare them, make them go away so that the grass is left there for the army when it moves through.
然后一般会有一个先锋和一个后卫，有时先锋会提前两年出去清理土地，把人们赶走，吓跑他们，让他们走开，这样军队通过时就可以留下草。
And they never marched the way other armies do it in a line of one following the other, they would always go in long lines spread out in wings so that each horse is on its own path, you can say, but all parallel together.
他们从来不会像其他军队那样以一排一排的方式行进，他们总是排成两翼展开的长队，这样每匹马都在自己的道路上，你可以说，但都是平行的。
So, they had very precise ways of doing things and this, I think, was the secret with him and he used the best people but he was willing to train them as much as possible, he never punished them for what happened.
所以，他们有非常精确的做事方式，我认为这就是他的秘密，他使用了最好的人才，但他愿意尽可能地培训他们，他从不因为发生的事情而惩罚他们。
So, Shigi Qutuqu, for example, the supreme judge, he was command one time of a group in a battle in Afghanistan and he lost the battle which is very, very unusual for Mongols.
例如，最高法官Shigi Qutuqu，他曾在阿富汗的一场战斗中指挥一个小组，但他输掉了这场战斗，这对蒙古人来说是非常非常不寻常的。
1:33:43 So, Genghis Khan went out with him, said, “Okay, let’s go to the battlefield together and look it over and you explain to me what you did and then we will talk about it.” So, he was very thoughtful in the way that he was training the people around him and they knew they weren’t going to be punished, it’s not like these countries where the general comes back and gets executed because he lost.
于是，成吉思汗就跟他出去了，说道：“好吧，我们一起去战场看看，你给我解释一下你做了什么，然后我们再谈谈。”所以，他训练周围人的方式非常周到，他们知道自己不会受到惩罚，不像这些国家，将军回来后会因为失败而被处决。
No, Genghis Khan knows every general is going to try 100% and, if they retreat fine, they’re saving Mongol lives, they know what to do, he respects that.
不，成吉思汗知道每个将军都会百分百尝试，如果他们撤退顺利，他们就是在拯救蒙古人的生命，他们知道该怎么做，他尊重这一点。
So, all these things like that fit together but I think a part of it that was important for him …
所以，所有这些事情都结合在一起，但我认为其中一部分对他来说很重要......
So, he had this base from steppe warfare already, the horse, the archery and how that all fit together but he was very quick to embrace any kind of other technology that he saw.
所以，他已经从草原战争中获得了这个基础，马，射箭以及所有这些如何结合在一起，但他很快就接受了他所看到的任何其他技术。
1:34:38 I think that sedentary armies, sedentary civilizations, they get stuck in ways, this is how we do it.
我认为久坐的军队、久坐的文明，他们陷入困境，这就是我们的做法。
And we’re going to make it a little faster, we’re going to make it a little bigger, a little stronger but this is how we think.
我们将使它更快一点，我们将使它更大一点，更强一点，但这就是我们的想法。
Genghis Khan had no set way to think and, when he encountered the first walled cities around 1209 after founding his nation in 1206, he went out on these raids and I really think there were raids not wars at first.
成吉思汗没有固定的思维方式，当他在 1206 年建国后的 1209 年左右遇到第一个有城墙的城市时，他进行了这些袭击，我真的认为一开始是袭击而不是战争。
So, he went into Tangut territory of what’s now northwestern China in the upper reaches of the Yellow River.
于是，他进入了西夏地区，也就是现在的中国西北部黄河上游。
So, he went there and, of course, the cities have walls around him, this is a man who’s never encountered a wall in his life.
所以，他去了那里，当然，城市周围都有围墙，这是一个一生中从未遇到过围墙的人。
Well, he did but they were made out of felt, the walls around his tent or felt walls.
嗯，他确实这么做了，但它们是用毛毡、他的帐篷周围的墙壁或毛毡墙制成的。
Yeah.
是的。
1:35:23 Just imagine what it’s like for the first time in your life seeing a wall.
想象一下你一生中第一次看到墙是什么感觉。
Yes.
是的。
When you come from the Mongolian steppe where there’s very few even natural wall-like things.
当你来自蒙古草原时，那里甚至很少有天然的像墙一样的东西。
Right.
正确的。
1:35:36 Well, they have wall cliffs in some places, they’re familiar with that and they can climb them but they don’t have people at the top shooting down the mountain but on the …
嗯，他们在某些地方有悬崖峭壁，他们对此很熟悉，他们可以爬上去，但他们没有人在山顶从山上射击，而是在……
So, he looked but he looked at everything around him and he saw, okay, they have this river and they have all these channels and they’re always moving water around and, like we said, for a Mongol, anything that moves is a potential weapon, anything that doesn’t move is a target.
所以，他看了看，但他看了看周围的一切，他发现，好吧，他们有这条河，他们有所有这些渠道，他们总是在移动水，就像我们说的，对于蒙古人来说，任何移动的东西都是潜在的武器，任何不移动的东西都是目标。
You’ve got moving water, you’ve got a standing non-moving wall so he said, okay, the men are going to dig a channel and they’re going to bring down the wall of the Tangut city.
你有流动的水，你有一堵站立不动的墙，所以他说，好吧，人们要挖一条渠道，他们要推倒西夏城的城墙。
1:36:16 Well, they did it and they didn’t know exactly what they were doing and the embankments weren’t high enough and too much water came in from the Yellow River and actually flooded out the Mongol camp.
好吧，他们确实这么做了，但他们并不知道自己到底在做什么，而且堤坝不够高，黄河里的水太多，实际上淹没了蒙古营地。
But okay, it happened, we learned that lesson so we’re going to improve it and that became a strategy that actually worked for the Mongols for the next 50 years, all the way to Baghdad.
但好吧，事情发生了，我们吸取了教训，所以我们要改进它，这成为了蒙古人在接下来的 50 年里一直有效的战略，一直到巴格达。
They were able to use it when they conquered Baghdad in 1258.
1258年他们征服巴格达时就能够使用它。
1:36:45 So, this ability to see things and to try them and, if they fail, to try them in a different way but a better way …
因此，这种看到事物并尝试它们的能力，如果失败，则以不同的方式但更好的方式尝试它们......
We all think we learn from our mistakes.
我们都认为我们可以从错误中吸取教训。
We all, yeah, yeah, I learned from that, I …
我们所有人，是的，是的，我从中吸取了教训，我……
And what do we do?
我们该怎么办？
We repeat the mistake.
我们重复错误。
I think it’s just a part of human nature.
我认为这只是人性的一部分。
Well, it didn’t work the first eight times but I’m going to do it one more time, I think it’s going to work.
嗯，前八次没有成功，但我会再做一次，我想它会成功的。
I know I’m going to win the lottery this time because I got the right …
我知道这次我会中彩票，因为我买对了……
That’s how we think.
我们就是这样想的。
But he had that real ability to, first of all, to be humble before these other things he didn’t know about, technology, and to understand that he didn’t understand but he could understand it in his own way and he did.
但他有真正的能力，首先，在他不了解的其他事物、技术面前保持谦虚，并理解他不理解的东西，但他可以用自己的方式理解它，而且他做到了。
Over and over, the Mongols were excellent at putting together new things and new ways and using them against their enemies.
蒙古人一次又一次地擅长将新事物和新方法组合在一起并利用它们来对抗敌人。
So, rapid, extreme, continued innovation.
所以，快速、极端、持续的创新。
1:37:37 So, you couple that with a, you have to say, a revolutionary idea that promotion should be based on merit.
因此，你不得不说，这是一个革命性的想法，即晋升应该基于绩效。
That idea combined with the innovative approach to military it just feeds on itself because the people who are learning from their mistakes and constantly improving are the ones that get promoted in the positions of power and then they inspire everybody else to do the same.
这种想法与创新的军事方法相结合，它只会自我滋养，因为那些从错误中吸取教训并不断改进的人才能获得权力职位的晋升，然后他们激励其他人也这样做。
And so, if every action is judged based on the excellence of that action, then over time, repeated iteration in war creates a more and more powerful army.
因此，如果每一个行动都是根据该行动的卓越性来判断的，那么随着时间的推移，战争的反复迭代会创造出一支越来越强大的军队。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
1:38:25 And they were able to do that for three generations to create an army that was ever expanding, ever changing its tactics and its technology and they got worse at it over time but Genghis Khan was the one who innovated it.
他们能够用三代人的时间来创建一支不断扩大、不断改变其战术和技术的军队，随着时间的推移，他们的情况变得越来越糟，但成吉思汗是这支军队的创新者。
He was the best with it and he used to throughout his lifetime and he was getting better over his lifetime with using foreign information, foreign technology, foreign ideas.
他在这方面是最擅长的，他一生都是如此，并且通过使用外国信息、外国技术、外国思想，他在一生中变得越来越好。
He just had a genius for that.
他在这方面有天赋。
If we can go back to the horses, you mentioned every soldier had five horses.
如果我们可以回到马匹，你提到每个士兵都有五匹马。
1:39:01 The reason for that is the horses get tired.
原因是马累了。
Yes.
是的。
And so, you can cover a lot of ground in a single day.
因此，您可以在一天之内完成很多工作。
Yes.
是的。
1:39:11 Usually, the way the rotation of the horses were, the horse would usually ride for one day and then rest for the next four to five days and then another horse would be riding the next day.
通常，马匹的轮换方式是，这匹马通常会骑一天，然后休息四到五天，然后第二天再骑另一匹马。
One way to measure it is that, later, at the time of the death of Ogedei Khan, the word went from Mongolia to Hungary in six weeks.
衡量它的一种方法是，后来，在窝阔台汗去世时，这个词在六周内从蒙古传到了匈牙利。
Mongolia to Hungary in six weeks.
六周内从蒙古飞往匈牙利。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So, let’s just imagine this army that’s able to move at such high speeds, does not need to follow roads because it’s used to riding in the open steppe.
那么，我们想象一下，这支能够以如此高的速度移动的军队，不需要沿着道路行驶，因为他们习惯了在开阔的草原上骑行。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
So, you can do all kinds of dynamic movements in encircling a place.
所以，你可以围绕一个地方做各种动态的动作。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
And then, also, one of the other famous things is the feigned retreat that was used continuously.
另外，另一件著名的事情就是不断使用的佯装撤退。
1:39:52 Can you explain how that worked?
你能解释一下这是如何运作的吗？
The Mongols did not fight for honor the way we often think of brave soldiers, Achilles and the Iliad and things like that, they fought for victory.
蒙古人并不像我们通常想象的勇敢的士兵、阿喀琉斯和伊利亚特之类的那样为荣誉而战，他们是为胜利而战。
1:40:00 That was the one thing.
这是唯一一件事。
So, to retreat, to save lives and all, there’s no shame in that.
所以，撤退、拯救生命等等，这并没有什么可耻的。
So, the Mongols would often retreat and Genghis Khan, basically, he himself never fought a battle that he thought he could lose and he won every battle he fought.
因此，蒙古人经常撤退，而成吉思汗基本上，他本人从未打过一场他认为自己可能会失败的战斗，并且他赢得了每一场战斗。
That wasn’t true for every general under him, as we said for Shigi Qutuqu for example, but he won every battle because there was no shame in retreating and in not fighting, not engaging the enemy.
对于他手下的每一位将军来说，情况并非如此，例如我们对石吉曲图曲所说的那样，但他赢得了每场战斗，因为撤退、不战斗、不与敌人交战并不可耻。
1:40:42 However, that also becomes a tactic and that they would send in a small group of soldiers to attack and the Mongols were able to fire, of course, going forward on the horse, they were able to then act like they were defeated and turn but they could still fire backwards which is the Parthian shot which is unusual in the world.
然而，这也成为一种战术，他们派出一小群士兵进攻，蒙古人能够开火，当然，他们骑着马向前走，然后他们可以表现得像被打败了，转身，但他们仍然可以向后开火，这就是安息人的射击，这在世界上是不寻常的。
Not totally unique but unusual to fire backwards.
并非完全独特，但向后射击并不常见。
But the Mongols also could lean down and fire under the neck of the horse so they’re protected, they had many different ways.
但蒙古人也可以俯身在马脖子下开火，这样他们就可以得到保护，他们有很多不同的方法。
1:41:15 So, they’re firing coming, they’re firing going but, usually, the soldiers who are against them would break ranks to chase them.
所以，他们开枪来，他们开枪去，但通常，反对他们的士兵会打破队列追赶他们。
They want to go, they want to get the weapons, they want to kill the Mongols and, if they didn’t immediately break ranks, the Mongols would often start throwing things out like loot from someplace and valuables around and soldiers usually couldn’t resist it.
他们想要离开，他们想要获得武器，他们想要杀死蒙古人，如果他们不立即脱离队伍，蒙古人经常会开始从某个地方扔掉一些东西，比如从某个地方掠夺的东西和周围的贵重物品，而士兵通常无法抗拒。
1:41:38 So, they’d come chasing out after the Mongols, pale male going in every different direction and then they would get to a certain point and, from behind the two hills, the Mongol army would come and slaughter them.
所以，他们会追赶蒙古人，苍白的男性从各个不同的方向前进，然后他们会到达某个地点，从两座山后面，蒙古军队会过来屠杀他们。
Over and over, this tactic worked, it’s like the one with the water.
一次又一次，这一策略奏效了，就像用水一样。
I’m thinking, the people, how can they not know this is what the Mongols are doing, how can they not know that.
我在想，人们怎么可能不知道这是蒙古人正在做的事情，他们怎么可能不知道。
1:42:00 How can they not know this is what the Mongols are doing?
他们怎么可能不知道这是蒙古人正在做的事情呢？
How can they not know that?
他们怎么会不知道呢？
Human nature.
人性。
1:42:04 There is something that when the forces are retreating-
当部队撤退时，有件事——
You want to follow them.
你想跟随他们。
You want to run after them.
你想追他们。
You want to follow them.
你想跟随他们。
1:42:08 You can’t help it.
你无能为力。
I don’t know what that is.
我不知道那是什么。
That’s maybe the animalistic, but take that with the ability at high speeds for the Mongols to encircle and attack the flanks.
这也许是兽性，但考虑到蒙古人有高速包围和攻击侧翼的能力。
Which there has been many great military historians who have written about the great military forces throughout history, and one of the things you write about and in general is the Mongols don’t get written about almost at all, and don’t get credit for the military tactics and the military genius exhibited through the different strategies.
有许多伟大的军事历史学家写过关于历史上伟大军事力量的文章，而你所写的一件事一般来说是蒙古人几乎根本没有被写到，并且没有因通过不同战略展示的军事战术和军事天才而受到赞扬。
This kind of idea of the feigned retreat and then attacking the flanks that’s been, if not invented and perfected by Genghis.
这种假装撤退然后攻击侧翼的想法即使不是成吉思汗发明和完善的，也是如此。
He really was a military genius.
他确实是一个军事天才。
1:43:04 But there were other things too.
但还有其他事情。
They didn’t like roads.
他们不喜欢道路。
They just didn’t like roads.
他们只是不喜欢道路。
So they would often be coming from some direction that nobody ever came from, and the people would be unprepared for that.
因此，他们经常会从没有人来自的某个方向而来，而人们对此毫无准备。
1:43:18 The most famous example is probably in Bukhara.
最著名的例子可能是在布哈拉。
This is a beautiful, wonderful old city, a great place in the world to this day.
这是一座美丽而美妙的古老城市，至今仍是世界上的一个伟大地方。
And they came across the desert.
他们穿过沙漠。
Well, nobody had ever attacked across the desert, so people see dust coming.
好吧，从来没有人袭击过沙漠，所以人们看到灰尘飞来。
They think, well, caravan.
他们认为，好吧，大篷车。
They don’t even know what’s going on.
他们甚至不知道发生了什么事。
But it was the direction that was a surprise element in that particular case.
但在这个特殊情况下，这个方向才是令人惊讶的因素。
So he was able to think in ways that the other people were not thinking yet, and to be able to surprise them.
所以他能够以其他人没有想到的方式思考，并且能够给他们带来惊喜。
What do you think it again, felt like to have this Mongol armada, the horses?
你觉得拥有这支蒙古舰队、马匹感觉如何？
1:43:48 The ground must shake when you have that many horses.
当你有那么多马的时候，大地一定会震动。
What do you think it feels like to be in a town when Genghis Khan’s approaching?
当成吉思汗即将到来时，你认为在一个城镇里是什么感觉？
I think the terror was one of the greatest weapons that he had.
我认为恐惧是他拥有的最强大的武器之一。
1:44:05 He cultivated this reputation of ferocity.
他培养了这种凶猛的名声。
Not only did he win battles, but he…
他不仅赢得了战斗，而且……
he didn’t allow people to write about him, as we said, but he encouraged refugees.
正如我们所说，他不允许人们写关于他的文章，但他鼓励难民。
And when he conquered a city, he always made sure there are plenty of refugees to go to the next city because it’s going to weaken them.
当他征服一座城市时，他总是确保有大量难民前往下一座城市，因为这会削弱他们。
It’s going to weaken their food supply, and they’re going to terrorize the people with tales of the millions of people that the Mongols killed with their steel chisel teeth and eating children and all kinds of horrible tales.
这将削弱他们的食物供应，他们将用蒙古人用钢凿牙杀死数百万人、吃儿童的故事以及各种可怕的故事来恐吓人民。
Genghis Khan encouraged it.
成吉思汗对此予以鼓励。
1:44:44 This is propaganda.
这是宣传。
It’s terrorism of a mental sort to weaken the enemy.
这是一种削弱敌人的精神恐怖主义。
And so when you hear, or even if you know they’re coming, you see the dust, you hear the roar that comes with all those horses and the trembling of the earth, it must’ve been truly terrifying.
因此，当你听到，或者即使你知道他们来了，你看到灰尘，你听到所有马匹的咆哮和大地的颤抖，那一定是非常可怕的。
So psychological warfare was a part of the whole process, but as I understand, there was always an offer for the towns and the territories being attacked for them to surrender peacefully without the loss of life.
因此，心理战是整个过程的一部分，但据我了解，总是有人向遭受袭击的城镇和领土提出和平投降的要求，而不会造成人员伤亡。
Yes.
是的。
And the alternative would be the near complete loss of life.
另一种选择将是几乎完全丧失生命。
1:45:19 Can you speak to that?
你能谈谈吗？
Genghis Khan had a precise system.
成吉思汗有一套精确的制度。
1:45:26 Exactly.
确切地。
He sent in envoys first to explain to the people a little bit about the Mongols.
他先派出使者，向民众解释一下蒙古人的情况。
Already much was known, but to explain to them that if they surrendered, all the lives would be spared and they could continue in their professions.
已经知道了很多事情，但要向他们解释，如果他们投降，所有的生命都将被饶恕，他们可以继续他们的职业。
It’s just that now the rulers would be the Mongols.
只是现在的统治者将是蒙古人。
They would have to pay the taxes, and usually it would be the same taxes they’d paid before, but now they would go to the Mongols.
他们必须缴纳税款，通常与以前缴纳的税款相同，但现在他们要交给蒙古人。
That was the general system.
这就是一般系统。
And because you only have 100,000 soldiers, you can’t leave a detachment there.
而且因为你们只有十万士兵，所以不能在那里留一支分遣队。
So you’re going to leave the local people in charge to run their country or their city and their area, the way they have done in the past.
因此，你将让当地人负责管理他们的国家、他们的城市和他们的地区，就像他们过去所做的那样。
He was absolutely faithful to that.
他对此绝对忠实。
1:46:10 And one episode in the north of Persia, modern Iran, his son-in-law, Toquchar, he violated that and was stealing and looting from the people who had surrendered.
在波斯北部，即现代伊朗，他的女婿托克查尔违反了这一规定，对投降的人民进行盗窃和抢劫。
Genghis Khan called him in and he stripped him of his rank, and he said, “The next city, you go first as a common soldier.” And of course, he was killed in the next battle.
成吉思汗把他叫了进来，剥夺了他的军衔，说道：“下城，你先当普通士兵。”当然，他在接下来的战斗中被杀了。
I don’t know the name of the daughter, unfortunately.
不幸的是，我不知道女儿的名字。
I’ve tried to figure that out.
我试图弄清楚这一点。
But anyway, it was a close relative to him, and he was killed in the next by violating this law.
但不管怎样，那是他的至亲，他在接下来就因为触犯了这条法则而被杀了。
So that was the law.
这就是法律。
1:46:46 If the city fought and the Mongols won, they did not kill everyone.
如果城市战斗并且蒙古人获胜，他们不会杀死所有人。
What they did was they killed all the leaders.
他们所做的就是杀死了所有的领导人。
They felt like the elite had not served them well.
他们觉得精英阶层没有为他们提供很好的服务。
And they usually kill the army, because they couldn’t incorporate the army into their own, the army had failed.
而他们通常会杀掉军队，因为他们无法将军队纳入自己的阵营，军队就失败了。
But the one thing that they valued were all the artisans, everybody who had a skill.
但他们看重的一件事是所有的工匠，每个拥有一技之长的人。
And that skill could be making a pot.
而这项技能可能就是做一个锅。
It could be hammering out a metal plate.
它可能正在锤打一块金属板。
It can be weaving carpets, it can be translating or just reading and writing.
它可以是编织地毯，可以是翻译，也可以只是阅读和写作。
Every person with a skill was spared.
每个有技能的人都幸免于难。
1:47:23 So the killing of the people who were defeated wasn’t so severe.
所以战败之人的杀戮并没有那么严重。
What was truly severe was if you surrendered, and many of them did, and then they knew they would not be harmed.
真正严重的是，如果你投降，他们中的许多人都投降了，然后他们知道自己不会受到伤害。
So they’re not harmed.
所以他们没有受到伤害。
The Mongols go on.
蒙古人继续前进。
The Mongols are hundreds of miles away and all of a sudden, forget about the Mongols.
蒙古人在数百英里之外，突然间，忘记蒙古人了。
Chinggis Khan sent word they were supposed to send so many cows or sheep to help.
成吉思汗派人传话，他们应该派很多牛或羊来帮忙。
Forget about the Mongols.
忘记蒙古人吧。
They’re far away.
他们很远。
It’s a…
这是一个…
No.
不。
He stopped, he returned, he conquered the city, and he killed everyone.
他停下来，他回来了，他征服了这座城市，他杀死了所有人。
That’s the way it worked.
这就是它的工作原理。
So the most drastic slaughter happens when there’s an agreement and then betrayal.
因此，最激烈的屠杀发生在达成协议然后背叛的时候。
Yes.
是的。
1:48:04 And as it turned out, I would say it was more the Middle East of what we call around Iran and Afghanistan, where these were the worst cases.
事实证明，我想说的是，这更多的是我们所说的伊朗和阿富汗周围的中东地区，那里的情况最严重。
I would say only in Afghanistan did sometimes the emotion of the slaughter take over in an unfortunate way.
我想说，只有在阿富汗，屠杀的情绪有时才会以一种不幸的方式占据上风。
He had a grandson whom he loved very much, and that grandson traveled with him, and he had the happy childhood that had not had.
他有一个他非常疼爱的孙子，那个孙子和他一起旅行，他拥有了从未有过的幸福童年。
And I think Chinggis Khan just loved that about him.
我认为成吉思汗就是喜欢他这一点。
1:48:39 But in Afghanistan, he was sent off to conquer the valley of Bamiyan where the great Buddhas are actually.
但在阿富汗，他被派去征服巴米扬山谷，那里实际上是大佛所在的地方。
He was sent to Bamiyan, and as it says in the Persian history, the thumb of fate fired the arrow that shot him down.
他被送到巴米扬，正如波斯历史上所说，命运的拇指射出了箭，把他射倒了。
He was killed.
他被杀了。
And for Chinggis Khan, he had never lost a family member.
而对于成吉思汗来说，他从来没有失去过一个亲人。
Not one.
没有一个。
None of his sons, none of his grandsons in battle, he had not lost them, and now to lose the most valuable grandson you have, the one that’s your pride and joy in so many ways.
他没有一个儿子，没有一个孙子在战斗中，他没有失去他们，而现在却失去了你最有价值的孙子，一个在很多方面都是你的骄傲和快乐的孙子。
1:49:20 So he called the father, his own son, to him and did not tell him, did not announce it to the public.
所以他把父亲，他自己的儿子，叫到了他面前，但没有告诉他，也没有向公众宣布。
And the son came and the son didn’t know why he was being summoned.
儿子来了，儿子不知道为什么要叫他。
And Chinggis Khan said, “You have to tell me that you will not cry or moan when I tell you this, but your son is no more.” And the father was…
成吉思汗说：“你必须告诉我，当我告诉你这件事时，你不会哭泣或呻吟，但你的儿子已经不在了。”而父亲是……
No one was allowed to moan.
没有人被允许呻吟。
No one was allowed to cry, no one was allowed to do anything.
不许任何人哭泣，不许任何人做任何事情。
You just, he said, “Make them cry.” He came down on the people of Afghanistan so harshly.
他说，你只是“让他们哭。”他如此严厉地对待阿富汗人民。
And it went on for weeks and weeks, the killing in Afghanistan.
阿富汗的杀戮持续了几周又几周。
And then it just wore itself out.
然后它就自己耗尽了。
He recognized that he had allowed his emotions to overcome practicality and the slaughtering of these people should stop.
他认识到他已经让自己的情绪战胜了现实，对这些人的屠杀应该停止。
And so he did.
他也这么做了。
1:50:29 But that’s the only time I know of that he really kind of lost control of his own emotions.
但那是我唯一一次知道他真的有点失去了对自己情绪的控制。
It’s something we can all understand, but his response was truly extreme of we will not cry, we will not mourn.
这是我们都可以理解的事情，但他的反应确实很极端，我们不会哭泣，我们不会哀悼。
They will cry.
他们会哭。
They will mourn.
他们会哀悼。
So that goes against the cold, rational way he approached war, which is peace is offered, and then betrayal is punished.
因此，这违背了他对待战争的冷酷、理性的方式，即提供和平，然后惩罚背叛。
I should add, he did not slaughter the people in the peaceful towns.
我应该补充一点，他没有屠杀和平城镇的人民。
1:51:01 What happened was the killing of what people thought was the heir, and he well may have been, of Chinggis Khan, the killing of him revitalized a lot of people’s hopes and a lot of cities revolted.
所发生的事情是，人们认为是成吉思汗的继承人的人被杀了，而他很可能就是成吉思汗的继承人，他的被杀重振了许多人的希望，许多城市也反抗了。
The ones who did not revolt were not killed.
没有反抗的人没有被杀。
But the cities who revolted, he killed them all.
但凡是反抗的城市，他都杀了。
There was a mass slaughter.
发生了大规模屠杀。
There are estimates that Ghengis Khan and his Mongol Empire were responsible for an estimated 40 million deaths, approximately 10% of the world’s population.
据估计，成吉思汗和他的蒙古帝国造成了约 4000 万人死亡，约占世界人口的 10%。
1:51:24 To put this number in the perspective of the modern day, that would be equivalent to killing about 800 million people in today’s population.
以现代的角度来看，这个数字相当于杀死了当今人口中的约 8 亿人。
How should we think about the brutality of numbers like these?
我们应该如何看待这些数字的残酷性？
The number itself is difficult to deal with.
这个数字本身就很难处理。
1:51:51 Millions of people were killed.
数百万人被杀。
For every family that lost someone, it’s a total loss.
对于每一个失去亲人的家庭来说，这都是彻底的损失。
It doesn’t matter what the number is, it’s a tremendous loss.
无论数字是多少，这都是巨大的损失。
And there was tremendous loss of life, as in every war.
就像每次战争一样，造成了巨大的生命损失。
1:52:09 I don’t think we should judge him any differently than other conquerors in history and other countries today that fight wars, including our own country.
我认为我们对他的评价不应与历史上的其他征服者和当今其他正在进行战争的国家（包括我们自己的国家）有任何不同。
Whatever we are willing to permit our country to do, we should be able to understand why Chinggis Khan or the Mongols did it.
无论我们愿意允许我们的国家做什么，我们都应该能够理解成吉思汗或蒙古人为什么这么做。
You look today in the world, people are killing children, women, civilians, every day.
看看今天的世界，人们每天都在杀害儿童、妇女和平民。
Every day.
每天。
And it’s always in the name of something, in the name of peace or in the name of God or in the name of our nation.
它总是以某种名义，以和平的名义，以上帝的名义，或以我们国家的名义。
There are always reasons for the killing.
杀人总是有原因的。
And the United States has certainly involved with that.
美国当然也参与其中。
Supplying the weapons for bombing people, invading Afghanistan, invading, fighting in Iraq, fighting in Syria.
为轰炸人民、入侵阿富汗、入侵、在伊拉克作战、在叙利亚作战提供武器。
The United States is very involved in that.
美国对此积极参与。
And it’s always, oh, but we’re defending democracy.
哦，我们总是在捍卫民主。
Yeah, we brought a hell of a lot of democracy to Afghanistan.
是的，我们给阿富汗带来了极大的民主。
We killed a lot of people.
我们杀了很多人。
1:53:18 You can even look back to World War II, our great moment of democracy and bringing freedom and democracy to Germany.
您甚至可以回顾一下第二次世界大战，这是我们民主的伟大时刻，为德国带来了自由和民主。
We dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
我们在广岛和长崎投下了原子弹。
Those were not military targets.
这些不是军事目标。
We were not doing anything strategic against the country other than terrorizing the country by killing women and children.
除了通过杀害妇女和儿童来恐吓国家之外，我们没有对国家采取任何战略行动。
That’s America.
那是美国。
That’s us.
那就是我们。
My father fought in that war.
我父亲参加了那场战争。
In fact, he fought in all.
事实上，他都在战斗。
He fought in Vietnam.
他参加过越南战争。
He fought in that war, and he fought in Korea.
他参加了那场战争，他还参加了朝鲜战争。
And he was a good American.
他是一个好美国人。
I mean, there was nothing wrong with it.
我的意思是，这没有任何问题。
1:53:52 And I don’t even condemn America, but I’m saying, how can we condemn one set of people for doing it and then excuse it in ourselves?
我什至不谴责美国，但我是说，我们怎么能谴责一群人这样做，然后为自己开脱呢？
But we tend to do that.
但我们倾向于这样做。
We, especially barbarian people, people from steppe for example, we tend to demonize them.
我们，尤其是野蛮人，例如来自草原的人，我们倾向于妖魔化他们。
Or any enemy we have, we tend to demonize them.
或者我们有任何敌人，我们倾向于妖魔化他们。
You said a lot of interesting things there.
你在那里说了很多有趣的话。
1:54:14 One is just the very nature of war.
一是战争的本质。
That war is hell.
那场战争就是地狱。
That sometimes things like dropping the atomic bomb, which is an act of essentially terror, in the same style as Genghis Khan, in an attempt to prevent further war.
有时，就像投下原子弹一样，这本质上是一种恐怖行为，与成吉思汗的风格相同，试图阻止进一步的战争。
It’s a justification.
这是一个理由。
1:54:40 People are always fighting for peace, always fighting for peace.
人们总是在为和平而战，总是在为和平而战。
World war I was to make the world safe for democracy and peace.
第一次世界大战是为了让世界变得更加安全、有利于民主与和平。
And then World War II.
然后是第二次世界大战。
But what happened?
但发生了什么？
We went to war in Korea, we went to war in Vietnam.
我们在朝鲜打仗，我们在越南打仗。
We bombed Cambodia, we bombed Laos, we bombed Afghanistan, we bombed Syria, we bombed Iraq.
我们轰炸了柬埔寨，我们轰炸了老挝，我们轰炸了阿富汗，我们轰炸了叙利亚，我们轰炸了伊拉克。
We’re always fighting for…
我们一直在为……而奋斗
And I’m not a pacifist.
而且我不是和平主义者。
I am not, I grew up surrounded with soldiers and I’m not a pacifist, but I try to be a realist that all nations kill, it happens everywhere.
我不是，我是在士兵的包围下长大的，我不是一个和平主义者，但我试图成为一个现实主义者，所有国家都会杀戮，这种情况无处不在。
So can we universally also then, in the way you’re passionately criticizing wars of the 20th century, can we also criticize Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great and the wars fought by Caesar and others in the Roman Empire?
那么，我们是否也可以像你们热情地批评20世纪的战争一样，普遍地批评成吉思汗和亚历山大大帝以及凯撒和罗马帝国其他人所进行的战争呢？
1:55:16 That they’re essentially wars of conquest and in some human way were not necessary or were not defensive.
它们本质上是征服战争，从人类的角度来看，这些战争是不必要的，也不是防御性的。
They’re just part of this human drive to expand, to explore, and to accumulate power.
它们只是人类扩张、探索和积累力量的动力的一部分。
1:55:49 Maybe this is a good place to also talk about somebody I respect a lot, Dan Carlin of a Hardcore History podcast.
也许这是一个谈论我非常尊敬的人的好地方，他是硬核历史播客的丹·卡林。
He did an amazing series on Genghis Khan and the Mongols called Wrath of the Khans.
他制作了一部关于成吉思汗和蒙古人的精彩连续剧，名为《可汗之怒》。
I recommend people go listen to it.
我建议人们去听一下。
He had a lot of interesting ideas there.
他在那里有很多有趣的想法。
One of them, he presented the idea of historical arsonists.
其中之一，他提出了历史纵火犯的想法。
So referring to figures who cause immense destruction, but also paved the way for new developments and progress, basically making this complicated case that destruction often in history paves the way for progress.
因此，提到那些造成巨大破坏，但也为新的发展和进步铺平道路的人物，基本上使这个复杂的情况变得复杂，历史上的破坏常常为进步铺平道路。
What do you think about this idea?
你觉得这个想法怎么样？
Creative destruction, it certainly works in some aspects of life, even with ourselves.
创造性破坏，它确实在生活的某些方面起作用，甚至对我们自己也是如此。
1:56:26 For example, if we can creatively destroy some of our habits and build new ones, it sometimes works or we can destroy relationships that we’re in order to create new ones, it can work.
例如，如果我们可以创造性地摧毁一些习惯并建立新的习惯，那么有时会奏效，或者我们可以破坏现有的关系以创造新的习惯，它也可以奏效。
When you start applying it to world history, it does become a little bit more difficult.
当你开始将它应用于世界历史时，它确实变得有点困难。
1:56:49 I certainly think that these episodes create great changes.
我当然认为这些事件会带来巨大的变化。
You can see great changes that happened because of the Mongol Empire.
你可以看到由于蒙古帝国而发生的巨大变化。
Now, whether or not that’s a good reason for the Mongol Empire having happened, it seems like a bit of a stretch for me.
现在，无论这是否是蒙古帝国发生的一个充分理由，对我来说似乎有点牵强。
The Mongols helped to unify many countries.
蒙古人帮助统一了许多国家。
You can think Korea had been three, basically kingdoms, push them together.
你可以认为韩国基本上是三个王国，把它们推到一起。
Everything that you see in China today was a part of the Mongol Empire.
今天你在中国看到的一切都是蒙古帝国的一部分。
They put together North China, South China, Tibet, Manchuria.
他们把华北、华南、西藏、满洲放在一起。
It was a little bit larger under the Mongols.
在蒙古人统治下，它的规模要大一些。
Even Russia with so many little kingdoms and Duchies and Dukedoms, and the center had been in the Ukraine and Kiev, and they shifted the focus out of Ukraine and more towards into what we call Russia now.
即使是拥有如此多小王国、公国和公国的俄罗斯，其中心也位于乌克兰和基辅，他们将焦点从乌克兰转移到了我们现在所说的俄罗斯。
And they began the process of the unification and had a great impact on the country.
他们开始了统一的进程，并对国家产生了巨大的影响。
1:57:47 So in a way, it’s a new creation.
所以在某种程度上，这是一个新的创造。
Yes, it does arrive out of the destruction, but also I think we need to look where does the destruction come from?
是的，它确实是从破坏中产生的，但我认为我们需要看看破坏从何而来？
And it often comes because the powers around them have been so debilitated and so corrupted, and so decayed of their own lack of moral fiber, that it was easy to conquer them.
这往往是因为他们周围的权力已经如此衰弱、如此腐败，并且由于他们自身缺乏道德品质而如此腐朽，以至于很容易征服他们。
1:58:12 Kublai Khan finally conquered all of China.
忽必烈最终征服了全中国。
He was conquering a decayed dynasty.
他正在征服一个腐朽的王朝。
When the Mongols conquered Baghdad and overthrew the Caliph, they were conquering a very decayed institution.
当蒙古人征服巴格达并推翻哈里发时，他们正在征服一个非常腐朽的机构。
No one likes war, and I certainly don’t like war, but I’m not 100% against it.
没有人喜欢战争，我当然也不喜欢战争，但我并不是百分百反对。
I think that there are times that people are going to do it for their own protection, if nothing else, or of their family, and it’s justified in that sense to themselves.
我认为，有时人们这样做是为了保护自己（如果没有别的原因）或保护他们的家人，从这个意义上说，这对他们自己来说是合理的。
It may not be justified in a world sense.
从世界意义上来说，这可能是不合理的。
I just make the case for being tolerant of what the Mongols did if we can tolerate what the Americans did.
我只是证明，如果我们能够容忍美国人的所作所为，就可以容忍蒙古人的所作所为。
And I am American through and through, there’s no question about that, but we overlook all of our things that we did.
我是彻头彻尾的美国人，这是毫无疑问的，但我们忽视了我们所做的所有事情。
1:59:01 That’s interesting, for example, in Afghanistan.
这很有趣，例如在阿富汗。
We were there for some 20 years.
我们在那里呆了大约20年。
We had made the Taliban stronger before when they were fighting against the Russians, and then we kicked them out, and then they kicked us out.
以前，当塔利班与俄罗斯人作战时，我们让他们变得更强大，然后我们把他们踢出去，然后他们把我们踢出去。
But some of the Taliban leaders are from the Jadran clan, the descended from Jamukha family, from his clan.
但塔利班的一些领导人来自贾德兰家族，贾德兰家族是贾木卡家族的后裔。
This is what I mean when I say that The ramifications from that time are still with us, and we don’t even see it.
这就是我说的意思：当时的影响仍然存在，但我们甚至没有看到。
1:59:33 And when Saddam Hussein went on television for the last time in Iraq to plead with his people, he said, “The Mongols,” meaning America, “The Mongols have returned.
当萨达姆·侯赛因最后一次在伊拉克出现在电视上恳求他的人民时，他说，“蒙古人”，意思是美国，“蒙古人回来了。
The Mongols have returned.” And he said, “The Americans are just the new…” I can see it.
蒙古人回来了。”他说，“美国人只是新的......”我可以看到这一点。
I don’t accept it, but I can see how people think.
我不接受，但我能看到人们的想法。
If we can be honest with ourselves and strip away our own lies about ourselves, then perhaps we will be more ethical in our dealings with other people.
如果我们能够对自己诚实并剥去关于自己的谎言，那么也许我们在与他人打交道时会更加道德。
And there’s effects that you could talk about.
您可以谈论一些影响。
2:00:07 I mean, the unification of China, Mongols or otherwise, is a very important step in the history of China that permeates to today.
我的意思是，中国的统一，无论是蒙古人还是其他人，都是中国历史上一直延续到今天的非常重要的一步。
And then there’s a lot of stuff that we’ll talk about, the ideas of religious freedom, the postal network, the trade routes, all of this.
然后我们会讨论很多东西，宗教自由的想法、邮政网络、贸易路线，所有这些。
There’s a lot of progressive consequences of the Mongol conquest and the Mongol Empire.
蒙古的征服和蒙古帝国产生了很多进步的后果。
We’ll talk about that.
我们会讨论这个。
But let’s linger on the heavier topic for a little bit longer.
但让我们在这个更沉重的话题上多停留一会儿。
2:00:39 We were talking about Dan Carlin, he was critical of your work a little bit, showing it respect, but also a little bit critical, as being a bit too…
我们谈论的是丹·卡林（Dan Carlin），他对你的工作有一点批评，表示尊重，但也有一点批评，因为有点太……
Emphasizing and focusing a lot on the positive impacts correctly and accurately, but not giving enough air time or describing the brutality of the killing, the hell that is war.
正确准确地强调和关注积极影响，但没有给予足够的播出时间或描述杀戮的残酷，这就是战争的地狱。
Can you understand his criticism?
你能理解他的批评吗？
Guilty.
有罪的。
2:01:12 I’m guilty.
我有罪。
[inaudible 02:01:15]
[听不清 02:01:15]
Carlin’s a very smart man.
卡林是一个非常聪明的人。
2:01:17 I respect him very much.
我非常尊重他。
I like him tremendously.
我非常喜欢他。
And he’s right.
他是对的。
But that is not what I want to stress.
但这不是我想强调的。
It’s not that I want to deny the killing.
我并不是想否认这起杀戮。
It’s not that I want to deny the warfare, but that’s pretty much the same everywhere in the world, and how much do we need to say about how the wall was broken down, how this unit was defeated, and all.
我并不是要否认这场战争，但世界各地都差不多，关于城墙是如何被推倒的，这支部队是如何被击败的，等等，我们需要说多少。
No, it’s what comes afterwards.
不，这是后来的事情。
Just as the story of our life begins far earlier than we are born, the story of our life goes on for a long time afterwards.
正如我们生命的故事早在我们出生之前就开始了一样，我们生命的故事也会在出生后持续很长一段时间。
2:01:54 If you have a nation of 1 million people and you are ruling over hundreds of millions of people, hundreds of millions of people, China, Russia, the Middle East, you do not do that through warfare.
如果你有一个100万人口的国家，而你统治着数亿人，数亿人，中国、俄罗斯、中东，你就不会通过战争来做到这一点。
You conquer them initially through warfare, but you do not rule them through warfare.
你最初是通过战争征服他们的，但你不是通过战争统治他们的。
You’ve got to be offering something that they want, something that they like.
你必须提供他们想要的东西，他们喜欢的东西。
And all the things you’ve mentioned from the trading system, the postal system, the religious freedom, the rights of women, the rights of minorities, these were things that people responded to.
你提到的贸易体系、邮政系统、宗教自由、妇女权利、少数族裔权利等都是人们的回应。
So the world benefited tremendously from the life of Chinggis Khan.
因此，世界从成吉思汗的一生中受益匪浅。
But all we want to talk about, and I don’t deny it, is the conquest part.
但我们想谈论的只是征服部分，我也不否认。
Okay, that’s 20 years.
好吧，那是20年。
It went on for another 150 years.
这样的情况又持续了 150 年。
There’s more to the story than just conquest.
这个故事不仅仅是征服。
There is a point that you correctly identify, and you’ve also written about Native Americans and so on, that history does seem to be written by the non-barbarians.
有一点你正确地认识到，而且你也写过关于美洲原住民的文章，等等，历史似乎是由非野蛮人书写的。
2:02:51 But in reality, history is not divided in this way.
但实际上，历史并不是这样划分的。
And the barbarians are not these crude, brutal, plain, simple people.
而野蛮人并不是这些粗野、残暴、朴素、简单的人。
That there is a sophisticated, deep culture within them as well.
他们内部也有复杂而深厚的文化。
All the different kinds of peoples that came from the steppe.
来自草原的所有不同种类的民族。
Yes.
是的。
2:03:20 I guess if there’s one thing that I try to do in my career of writing, it is to get us to recognize the importance of tribal people in the history of the world.
我想，如果我在写作生涯中尝试做一件事，那就是让我们认识到部落人民在世界历史上的重要性。
We tend to have two categories for them.
我们倾向于将它们分为两类。
They’re barbarians who kill people and eat one another, or they’re victims and we should feel sorry from them and nostalgic about everything about them, and maybe wear some of their beads or some of their clothing to show how much we sympathize with their suffering.
他们是杀人、互相吃人的野蛮人，或者他们是受害者，我们应该为他们感到难过，怀念他们的一切，或许可以佩戴他们的一些珠子或他们的一些衣服，以表明我们对他们的苦难有多么同情。
That’s the two roles for tribal people.
这是部落人民的两个角色。
2:03:50 But I’m trying to show them in a different light.
但我试图从不同的角度展示它们。
That they conquered.
他们征服了。
Yes, they were conquerors, but they also created great things in the history of the world.
是的，他们是征服者，但他们也创造了世界历史上的伟大事物。
And that the Mongol Empire was really the first modern empire in the way that I’m putting together that story.
从我整理这个故事的角度来看，蒙古帝国确实是第一个现代帝国。
And Chinggis Khan was the genius behind that, who created this idea that there could be one world in which there would be one set of supreme law, but all people could follow their own law.
成吉思汗是这背后的天才，他创造了这样一个想法：可能有一个世界，其中有一套最高的法律，但所有人都可以遵循自己的法律。
2:04:20 You could have any religion you wanted, but ultimately you had to obey the great ethics of the sky.
你可以有任何你想要的宗教，但最终你必须遵守天空的伟大道德。
And there were things like that about his vision that I think very few people in history had, a vision.
我认为历史上很少有人有这样的愿景。
And I look around the world today, and in my lifetime, since the time of Roosevelt’s death, I look around, I don’t see much vision.
今天我环顾世界，在我的一生中，自从罗斯福去世以来，我环顾四周，我看不到太多的愿景。
I see lots of slogans, lots of talk, policy papers.
我看到很多口号、很多言论、政策文件。
Oh my God, we can produce it.
天哪，我们可以生产它。
Where’s the vision?
愿景在哪里？
It’s always, we’re going to have peace and we’re going to have a better life and vote for me or vote for my party and we’re really for the people.
我们总是会拥有和平，我们会过上更好的生活，投票给我或投票给我的政党，我们真的是为了人民。
What the heck are they talking about?
他们到底在说什么？
There is no vision there.
那里没有远见。
So what is this country?
那么这个国家是什么？
What should this country be?
这个国家应该是什么样的？
What is this world?
这个世界是什么？
How should we…
我们应该如何...
No.
不。
No vision.
没有远见。
Well, those figures, I mean, they’re rare through history.
嗯，我的意思是，这些数字在历史上是罕见的。
2:05:16 The legendary figures that come along that have vision, but are able to capture the public imagination and heart and mind with the vision, but also have the skill to execute and implement it, and all of those things combined, and have the mental fortitude not to be corrupted by success along the way.
这些传奇人物不仅有远见，而且能够用远见抓住公众的想象力和心灵，而且还具有执行和实施它的技巧，所有这些结合在一起，并且具有不被一路上的成功所腐蚀的精神毅力。
All of those things.
所有这些事情。
That’s very rare in history.
这在历史上是非常罕见的。
2:05:44 Very rare.
非常罕见。
And when they come along, they change the direction of history.
当它们出现时，就会改变历史的方向。
2:05:46 If we could linger on some of these world-defining ideas.
如果我们能停留在这些定义世界的想法上就好了。
Religious freedom.
宗教自由。
It’s just surprising and incredible that Genghis Khan was able to enforce, inspire the value of religious freedom throughout all of these disparate lands for whom religion was a very powerful force.
令人惊讶和难以置信的是，成吉思汗能够在所有这些不同的土地上强制执行和激发宗教自由的价值，对这些土地来说，宗教是非常强大的力量。
So can you speak to that?
那么你能谈谈吗？
Some empires in history, and some rulers have been tolerant of various groups.
历史上的一些帝国、一些统治者对各种群体都是宽容的。
2:06:16 I mean, Rome to some extent was reasonably tolerant of different sects and religions, not of the Christians, but reasonably.
我的意思是，罗马在某种程度上对不同的教派和宗教，不是基督徒，而是合理的宽容。
But what happened with Genghis Khan, the first campaign he had outside of Mongolia was for the Uyghur people who lived in Western China.
但成吉思汗的情况是，他在蒙古以外发起的第一次战役是针对居住在中国西部的维吾尔族人民的。
They at that time were being ruled by, actually we had mentioned before, the Naiman king, Tayang Khan.
他们当时的统治者，实际上我们之前已经提到过，乃蛮王塔阳可汗。
His son Kuchlug had fled.
他的儿子库奇卢格逃跑了。
No good, worthless, well son.
没有好，一文不值，好儿子。
Kuchlug had fled into what is today the area around Kyrgyzstan.
库奇卢格逃到了今天的吉尔吉斯斯坦周围地区。
They ruled over the Uyghur people.
他们统治着维吾尔族人民。
He had been a Christian.
他曾经是一名基督徒。
The Naiman had been a Christian tribe, but he converted to Buddhism.
奈曼人原本是一个基督教部落，但后来皈依了佛教。
2:07:07 Well, his subjects were Muslim, and he outlawed the Muslim religion, and he made all kinds of things happen.
嗯，他的臣民是穆斯林，他宣布穆斯林宗教为非法，他让各种事情发生。
So the Uyghurs sent a delegation to Genghis Khan.
于是，维吾尔人派了一个代表团去见成吉思汗。
At this time they knew that the emperors of China were too weak to protect them, so they sent delegation to Genghis Khan and asked him to come and save them from him.
这时他们知道中国的皇帝太弱了，无力保护他们，所以他们派使者去见成吉思汗，请他来救他们脱离他的手。
And he did.
他做到了。
He sent down a detachment.
他派出了一支分队。
He didn’t actually go himself.
他自己其实并没有去。
He said a detachment down there, they drove Kuchlug from power.
他说那里有一支小队，他们把库奇卢格赶下了权力。
Kuchlug fled down towards Pakistan, in that direction, they caught up with him.
库奇卢格向巴基斯坦方向逃去，他们在那个方向追上了他。
They killed him.
他们杀了他。
That’s what the Mongols did.
蒙古人就是这么做的。
2:07:42 And then Genghis Khan made the first law that he ever made for people outside of Mongolia.
然后成吉思汗为蒙古以外的人民制定了第一部法律。
Up to this point, it’s been tribal law.
到目前为止，这一直是部落法。
And he saw, as we had mentioned before, the tribes were mostly fighting over women.
他看到，正如我们之前提到的，部落大多在争夺女性。
So you outlaw the kidnapping of women, you outlaw the sale of women, and you cut down on a lot of the feuding.
因此，你们禁止绑架妇女，禁止买卖妇女，并且减少了很多争斗。
But he saw that “civilized” people fought a lot over religion.
但他看到“文明”人们因宗教问题发生了很多争执。
They weren’t fighting over women, they were fighting over religion.
他们不是为女人而战，而是为宗教而战。
And so he made the law.
于是他制定了法律。
2:08:13 Now, this was very interesting, we talk about religious freedom.
现在，这非常有趣，我们谈论宗教自由。
Religious freedom comes in many forms.
宗教自由有多种形式。
One form is to allow institutions to do what they want.
一种形式是允许机构为所欲为。
So we’re going to allow the Mormons and the Catholics and the Jews and the Muslims each to do what they want in the organized churches that they have.
因此，我们将允许摩门教徒、天主教徒、犹太人和穆斯林在他们拥有的有组织的教会中做他们想做的事。
His law was not that.
他的律法不是这样的。
It presumed that.
据推测是这样的。
It allowed that, but he said, every person has the right to choose their religion.
它允许这样做，但他说，每个人都有权选择自己的宗教信仰。
No one can stop them.
没有人能阻止他们。
No one can force them.
没有人可以强迫他们。
The idea that it was individual choice, no one in history had ever thought of that, that it belonged to the person.
这是个人选择的想法，历史上没有人想到过，它属于个人。
I mean, that’s a really, really powerful statement.
我的意思是，这是一个非常非常有力的声明。
Yes.
是的。
That alone, I mean, that’s why you talk about Thomas Jefferson being deeply inspired by Genghis Khan.
我的意思是，仅凭这一点，这就是为什么你说托马斯·杰斐逊深受成吉思汗的启发。
2:08:56 That religious freedom, yes, of the individual, but it’s such a powerful illustration, manifestation of just individual freedom period.
是的，个人的宗教自由，但它是个人自由时期的有力例证和体现。
If you in the world, in history, are allowed to practice any religion you want, I mean, that is one of the biggest way to say that the individual is fundamentally free in a society.
如果你在世界上、在历史上被允许信奉任何你想要的宗教，我的意思是，这是表达个人在社会中基本上自由的最重要的方式之一。
Yes.
是的。
2:09:33 It was a great source of power for him also.
这对他来说也是一个巨大的力量源泉。
I don’t say that he did this because of some ideological reason.
我并不是说他这样做是出于某种意识形态原因。
Just like he didn’t outlaw the kidnapping of women for ideological reasons.
就像他没有因为意识形态原因而禁止绑架妇女一样。
He didn’t come to it through studying ideas of moral right.
他并不是通过研究道德权利观念而达到这一点的。
He came to it through practical experience of life.
他是通过生活的实际经验得出这一点的。
His mother was kidnapped, his wife was kidnapped.
他的母亲被绑架了，他的妻子也被绑架了。
He knew that that was a crime against every ethics that you can think of and every form of morality.
他知道这是对你能想到的每一种伦理和每一种形式的道德的犯罪。
That’s why he did it, not for ideological reasons, but practical reasons.
这就是他这么做的原因，不是出于意识形态原因，而是出于实际原因。
It hurt people.
它伤害了人们。
It hurt people.
它伤害了人们。
2:10:06 It was the same with religion.
宗教也是如此。
He gave this right to everybody because it was going to be their own personal right to keep them from being hurt.
他把这项权利赋予每个人，因为这将是他们自己的个人权利，以防止他们受到伤害。
And then that gave him tremendous support from minorities of many types.
这给了他来自各种少数族裔的巨大支持。
And so they flocked to him.
于是他们纷纷涌向他。
Minorities after that, this was a minority effort of the Muslim Uyghurs to come to him, many people flocked to him for the same reason.
之后的少数民族，这是穆斯林维吾尔人的少数民族努力来找他，很多人因为同样的原因涌向他。
For that kind of religious freedom.
为了那种宗教自由。
So that religious freedom and also the other things you mentioned, they create a stable society and that allows him with a small army to administer a large empire.
因此，宗教自由以及你提到的其他事情，它们创造了一个稳定的社会，使他能够用一支小军队来管理一个大帝国。
And also, I will say on a more practical political way of thinking, he recognized the power of having a balance of power of Shiite and Sunni.
而且，我要说的是，从更实际的政治思维方式来看，他认识到什叶派和逊尼派力量平衡的力量。
2:10:45 That both are going to be allowed, equal rights.
两者都将被允许，享有平等的权利。
One is not dominant over the other.
一个人并不比另一个人占主导地位。
And Christians and Jews.
还有基督徒和犹太人。
Well, that keeps the society from fragmenting against him or uniting against him, and it’s a kind of fragmentation that he’s taken advantage of.
嗯，这可以防止社会分裂反对他或联合起来反对他，而他利用了这种分裂。
I don’t think that was his main reason, but I do think he was quite aware of that.
我不认为这是他的主要原因，但我确实认为他很清楚这一点。
That you give every religion the right, and unfortunately, the only religion he didn’t recognize as a religion was Confucianism.
你赋予每一种宗教以权利，不幸的是，他唯一不承认的宗教是儒教。
He said, “What do they do?” The Taoists can do magic on the earth and they can give people magic formulas and to cure, or they have all this kind of stuff going on.
他说：“他们做什么？”道士可以在地球上施展魔法，他们可以给人们神奇的配方和治疗，或者他们有所有这些东西。
Well, what did the Confucianist do?
那么，儒家做了什么？
So still the people could be Confucianist.
所以人们仍然可以是儒家。
That was okay, but he didn’t expend all the tax-free rights.
没关系，但他并没有花掉所有的免税权。
2:11:51 See, that was another thing.
看，那是另一回事了。
He dropped all taxes on religious institutions, all types.
他取消了对所有类型的宗教机构的所有税收。
But since the Confucianists were not necessarily classified.
但既然儒家不一定有分类。
But then of course eventually that was abused so much because the religions were then getting everybody did not own a property.
但当然，最终这被滥用了，因为宗教让每个人都没有财产。
You can still use it.
您仍然可以使用它。
You can still farm your land, but it’s ours.
你仍然可以耕种你的土地，但它是我们的。
And now you don’t have to pay taxes on it.
现在你不必为此纳税。
You just give us some money.
你只要给我们一些钱就可以了。
Got abused.
被虐待了。
But it started off as a good idea.
但这一开始是个好主意。
And genuinely, as I understand, maybe you can correct me, of course, there’s the practical aspect of those policies, but he himself was just curious about the different religions as well, as I understand.
说实话，据我了解，也许你可以纠正我，当然，这些政策有实际的方面，但据我了解，他本人也只是对不同的宗教感到好奇。
2:12:19 So he never chose any religion except the one from which he came.
因此，除了他来自的宗教之外，他从未选择过任何宗教。
I guess, can you describe what he believed spiritually himself?
我想，你能描述一下他自己的精神信仰吗？
It’s interesting, we said after the death of [inaudible 02:12:49], his grandson in Bamiyan and the slaughter that followed that, he went through a new phase in which he summoned religious scholars of all sorts of famous Chung Chang from China, who I despise.
有趣的是，我们说，在他的孙子[听不清 02:12:49] 在巴米扬去世以及随后的屠杀之后，他经历了一个新的阶段，他从中国召集了各种著名的宗教学者张中，而我鄙视他们。
2:12:45 But anyway, he came with all of his magic formulas for things, and then a bunch of various Muslim leaders came.
但无论如何，他带来了所有神奇的公式，然后一群不同的穆斯林领袖也来了。
So Chinggis Khan was exploring all these different religions, and not just in a simple way.
因此，成吉思汗正在探索所有这些不同的宗教，而且不仅仅是以一种简单的方式。
He had organized public lectures from these people and public debates, not antagonistic debates, but discussions among groups of people who hated each other and would never discuss anything.
他组织了这些人的公开演讲和公开辩论，不是对抗性的辩论，而是一群互相仇恨、永远不会讨论任何事情的人之间的讨论。
And suddenly this powerful man summons them and he has to say, “Okay, well explain your religion and explain yours.” And even sometimes you can’t just explain it in terms of your own scripture.
突然，这个有权有势的人召唤了他们，他不得不说：“好吧，我们解释一下你们的宗教信仰，解释一下你们的宗教信仰。”甚至有时你不能只用你自己的经文来解释它。
What do you say to the people who believe a different?
您对持不同看法的人有什么想说的？
2:13:44 So he was exploring, but no, he never changed at all.
所以他在探索，但不，他根本没有改变。
He was an animist, we would say.
我们会说他是一个万物有灵论者。
That’s about the only term we know to use.
这是我们知道使用的唯一术语。
Early in life he worshiped that mountain where he took refuge several times.
他早年曾多次朝拜那座山并避难。
Burkhan Khaldun, Burkhan Khaldun was the great refuge of his life.
不儿罕合勒敦，不儿罕合勒敦是他一生最大的皈依处。
He would go to the top, he would pray.
他会登上顶峰，他会祈祷。
He would take off his hat.
他会摘下帽子。
He would take off his belt.
他会解下腰带。
He would stand there before the sky and pray.
他会站在天空前祈祷。
Also later on, actually, this became rather dramatic.
实际上，后来这变得相当戏剧化。
He would sometimes go away to pray, should we invade these people?
他有时会去祈祷，我们应该入侵这些人吗？
So all of the subjects are waiting to hear what’s God going to tell Chinggis Khan when he goes up the mountain?
那么所有臣民都在等着听成吉思汗上山时上帝会告诉他什么？
There are episodes like that, but he was very sincere.
虽然有这样的情节，但他很真诚。
2:14:28 But I think what happened, the Mongols have so many spirits in the water, the mountains, everything around them and you have to know them personally and pray to them and know what they like and don’t like.
但我认为发生了什么事，蒙古人在水里、山里、周围的一切里有很多灵魂，你必须亲自了解他们，向他们祈祷，知道他们喜欢什么，不喜欢什么。
And should you sing to them or should you offer some milk products or what do you do?
你应该给他们唱歌还是应该提供一些奶制品或者你会做什么？
You have to know them.
你必须了解他们。
Well, you get away from Mongolia, and this was a problem in China, they didn’t know the spirits.
好吧，你离开蒙古，这在中国是一个问题，他们不认识鬼魂。
This caused great consternation for the Mongols.
这引起了蒙古人的极大惊愕。
You’ve got a land here and the spirits don’t like us.
你在这里有一块土地，但灵魂不喜欢我们。
They’re hostile lands.
他们是充满敌意的土地。
We don’t even know who they are.
我们甚至不知道他们是谁。
We don’t know these spirits in China.
我们在中国不认识这些精神。
It took a long time.
花了很长时间。
And so gradually, Chinggis Khan, he moved from just the spirit of the mountain that he worshiped, which remained his main focus of worship his whole life, he removed that to the sky.
因此，成吉思汗渐渐地从他所崇拜的山神（这仍然是他一生的主要崇拜焦点）转移到了天空。
That was the one universal spirit.
这就是统一的普遍精神。
It was everywhere in the world.
它遍布世界各地。
The sky was the same for every people.
天空对每个人来说都是一样的。
2:15:25 And so for the Mongolians in their language, the word for sky and the word for heaven and the word for God and the word for weather are all the same, Tenger.
因此，对于蒙古人来说，他们的语言中的“天”字、“天堂”字、“神”字和“天气”字都是同一个字，“腾格尔”。
Or Mönkh Khökh Tenger in the case of the eternal sky when they’re talking about it in a religious terms, the eternal blue sky.
或者当他们用宗教术语谈论永恒的天空时，Mönkh Khökh Tenger 就是永恒的蓝天。
So he became more universalistic in this animist vision of the world.
因此，他在万物有灵论的世界观中变得更加普遍。
So then the sky could embrace all religions, all religions, and all people were trying to attain the same form of enlightenment.
那么天空就可以包容所有的宗教，所有的宗教，所有的人都在努力获得同样形式的启蒙。
Well…
嗯……
2:16:00 …
……
to attain the same form of enlightenment.
获得同样形式的启蒙。
Well, enlightenment is too specific a word, but the same form of moral life and guidance from the sky.
嗯，启蒙这个词太具体了，但同样是道德生活和来自天空的指导。
He felt that each person knew morality, each person could communicate it, know morality within themselves.
他认为每个人都知道道德，每个人都可以传达道德，知道自己内心的道德。
They didn’t have to just be taught it by somebody from a book.
他们不必只是由书本上的人来教。
And in fact, as one of his grandson, Mongke Khan said, “You people,” talking to all the others, to the Christians, the Jews, the Muslims, the Daoists, said, “You people have your scriptures and you don’t live by them.
事实上，正如他的孙子之一蒙哥汗所说，“你们这些人，”对所有其他人，对基督徒、犹太人、穆斯林、道教徒说，“你们有你们的经典，但你们并不靠它们生活。
We have our spirits and our shamans and our drums, and we live by them” and I think it’s true.
我们有我们的精神、我们的萨满和我们的鼓，我们靠它们生活”，我认为这是真的。
Throughout this conversation, it’s just blowing my mind that the kid from the Mongols that lost everything, just had the hardest of lives is now, yes, a military genius, but also this kind of sage-type character, to understand the value of religious freedom.
在整个谈话中，让我震惊的是，这个失去了一切、刚刚过着最艰难生活的蒙古孩子现在是，是的，一个军事天才，但也是这种圣人型人物，懂得宗教自由的价值。
2:16:43 I mean, there is a cynical way to see all these things, because he did awfully a lot of things that look like he’s a feminist.
我的意思是，有一种愤世嫉俗的方式来看待所有这些事情，因为他做了很多看起来像女权主义者的事情。
And you’re saying, “Well, the cynical way to see that is what he saw the value of promoting women in positions of power because they create a more stable society, and there’s less power, struggles,” all that.
你会说，“好吧，以愤世嫉俗的方式看待这一点，他看到了提拔女性担任权力职位的价值，因为她们创造了一个更稳定的社会，权力和斗争更少，”所有这些。
But the reality is, there’s a lot of things that look awfully progressive about the things he’s implemented, and they stayed.
但现实是，他所实施的许多事情看起来非常进步，而且它们保留了下来。
I’m not trying to say it in modern terms.
我并不是想用现代术语来表达。
2:17:36 When you have one million people, you’ve got to use every one.
当你有一百万人时，你必须利用每一个人。
And the men are fighting.
男人们正在战斗。
And so he left women to administer a lot of things inside the country, the economy in particular, and some of the ancillary Turkic kingdoms around the Mongols, such as the Ongud, the Qarluq, and the Uyghur, even, were administered by his daughters, primarily.
因此，他让妇女来管理国内的很多事务，特别是经济，而蒙古周围的一些附属突厥王国，例如温古都、葛逻禄和回鹘，甚至主要由他的女儿们管理。
And then his wives were in charge of administering the land of Mongolia itself, and handling the economy.
然后他的妻子们负责管理蒙古本土的土地，处理经济。
2:18:09 So he was using the women, but in a very practical way, but it wasn’t necessarily in our ideological way.
所以他在利用女性，但以一种非常实际的方式，但不一定是以我们意识形态的方式。
I think it’s the same with the environment.
我想环境也是如此。
I’m not trying to say he was environmentalist in our modern way, but he passed very strict laws about the use of water, and also about not using water, that you couldn’t move water into an area to irrigate it.
我并不是想说他是我们现代方式的环保主义者，但他通过了关于用水和不用水的非常严格的法律，即你不能将水移入一个区域来灌溉。
That was violating the earth and violating the water.
那是侵犯了大地，侵犯了水。
2:18:37 So they think, a lot of the historians, they think the Mongols are so stupid, they let the irrigation system be destroyed.
所以他们认为，很多历史学家，他们认为蒙古人太愚蠢了，他们让灌溉系统被摧毁。
No, it takes more work to destroy an irrigation system than it does to create it.
不，摧毁灌溉系统比创建灌溉系统需要更多的工作。
They destroyed those systems out of a policy, and that was, “This is going to return to pasture land.”
他们出于一项政策摧毁了这些系统，那就是“这将回到牧场”。
2:18:54 This lasted, Kublai Khan was the one who changed that, actually, and then started allowing for more irrigation and the movement of water and things.
这种情况一直持续着，事实上，忽必烈汗是改变这一状况的人，然后开始允许更多的灌溉以及水和物体的流动。
But Chinggis Khan, we can’t use these modern terms of a human rights crusader, or that I’m trying to say he’s a Democrat, the modern sense, or environmentalist, or a feminist.
但是成吉思汗，我们不能使用人权斗士的这些现代术语，或者我试图说他是现代意义上的民主党人、环保主义者或女权主义者。
But all of this was a part of it.
但所有这些都是其中的一部分。
Another part was the protection of envoys.
另一部分是保护使节。
He said, “Every envoy, every ambassador, every messenger is protected from arrest, from torture, and from killing.
他说：“每一位特使、每一位大使、每一位信使都受到保护，免遭逮捕、酷刑和杀害。
And if you kill one of ours, we will wipe you out.”
如果你杀了我们的一个人，我们就会消灭你。”
2:19:35 And in 1240, that was the destruction of Kiev.
1240 年，基辅被毁。
This is after Chinggis Khan already know there’s Ogedei Khan, his son, the happy, happy drunk.
这是在成吉思汗已经知道他的儿子窝阔台汗的存在之后，他是一个快乐、快乐的醉汉。
Ogedei Khan’s army had come there under Subutai, the greatest general of the history of the world, I would say, Subutai, person who’s not …
窝阔台汗的军队是在世界历史上最伟大的将军速不台的带领下来到那里的，我想说，速不台，一个不是……的人。
It wasn’t Chinggis Khan for the military part.
军事方面不是成吉思汗。
He was the greatest strategist for organizing everything together.
他是把一切组织在一起的最伟大的战略家。
But the military part was Subutai.
但军事部分却是须不台。
So Subutai had been there, and they sent in an ambassador who happened to be a woman.
须不台当时就在那里，他们派了一位大使，而这位大使恰好是一位女性。
Now, some of the western sources say a daughter of Chinggis Khan.
现在，一些西方消息来源称她是成吉思汗的女儿。
I have no evidence of that, and I don’t quite believe it, but maybe she was kin to him or something.
我没有证据证明这一点，我也不太相信，但也许她是他的亲戚什么的。
Some say she was a daughter of Chinggis Khan.
有人说她是成吉思汗的女儿。
Others say she was a witch.
也有人说她是女巫。
The people of Kiev decided she was a witch and killed her.
基辅人民认为她是女巫并杀死了她。
Okay.
好的。
That’s it.
就是这样。
That’s it.
就是这样。
Kiev was destroyed for killing a Mongol envoy.
基辅因杀害蒙古特使而被摧毁。
The envoy is a method of communication.
使者是一种沟通的方式。
Yes.
是的。
And diplomacy.
还有外交。
Yes.
是的。
And so if you destroy that method of communication or disrespect it in any way-
因此，如果你破坏这种沟通方式或以任何方式不尊重它——
Exactly.
正是如此。
…
……
2:20:43 and that sends a signal to everybody else.
这向其他人发出了一个信号。
We send an envoy, you respect it.
我们派遣使者，你尊重它。
That’s why these plans, I say that the making of the modern world, most of the ideas have, we accept the idea.
这就是为什么这些计划，我说现代世界的形成，大多数想法都有，我们接受这个想法。
2:20:48 We don’t do the practice.
我们不做练习。
All of us accept, today, diplomatic freedom.
今天，我们所有人都接受外交自由。
Diplomats are killed around the world yearly.
世界各地每年都有外交官被杀。
We accept the idea of female equality and emancipation of every way, but in fact, they’re enslaved in many parts of the world today.
我们接受女性平等和各方面解放的理念，但事实上，当今世界许多地方她们都受到奴役。
We accept the idea of religious freedom, oh, but not those people.
我们接受宗教自由的理念，哦，但不接受那些人。
Theirs isn’t good.
他们的不好。
Their religion isn’t right.
他们的宗教信仰是不对的。
But our religion, we will tolerate them, but they got to be more like …
但我们的宗教，我们会容忍他们，但他们必须更像……
No.
不。
We only say these things, but the world still hasn’t achieved some.
我们只说了这些，但世界还没有取得一些成果。
And he did achieve these within his empire in his time, he achieved those.
他确实在他的时代在他的帝国内实现了这些，他实现了这些。
So one of the things we’ve mentioned, but I think is really, really fascinating and maybe in a measurable impact that Chinggis Khan had is on trade, and you could say a lot of stuff, but basically establishing a unified trade network that spanned, I don’t know how many thousands of kilometers, and there’s a lot of interesting things that were done to enable that trade.
所以我们提到的一件事，但我认为真的非常非常令人着迷，也许成吉思汗对贸易产生了可衡量的影响，你可以说很多东西，但基本上建立了一个跨越了多少万公里的统一贸易网络，并且做了很多有趣的事情来实现这种贸易。
2:21:34 One is providing safety and security of not just the envoys, like we mentioned, for communication in the military context, but for the merchants.
一是不仅为我们提到的使节在军事背景下的通信提供安全保障，而且为商人提供安全保障。
Can you speak to the what Chinggis Khan did for the trade network?
您能谈谈成吉思汗为贸易网络所做的事情吗？
Connected to the Silk Road, as an example?
举例来说，与丝绸之路相连？
Nomads in general are interested in trade, and throughout most of history, they have been the traders who carried the goods from one city to another or one oasis to another.
一般来说，游牧民族对贸易感兴趣，在历史的大部分时间里，他们都是将货物从一个城市运到另一个城市或从一个绿洲运到另一个绿洲的商人。
2:22:20 And so the Mongols were also extremely interested and extremely dependent.
所以蒙古人也非常感兴趣并且非常依赖。
They could create very little in their home country.
他们在自己的祖国能创造的东西非常少。
They couldn’t grow hardly anything, and they didn’t have the technological skills for most of the crafts.
他们几乎不能种植任何东西，而且他们不具备大多数手工艺品的技术技能。
So they’re very dependent on trade.
所以他们非常依赖贸易。
2:22:46 Well, they raised the status of merchants very high.
那么他们把商人的地位提升的非常高了。
This was particularly a problem in the Chinese world.
这在华人世界尤其是一个问题。
It wasn’t so much in the Christian or the Muslim world, but certainly in the Chinese world, where merchants were considered extremely low.
在基督教或穆斯林世界，情况并不那么严重，但在华人世界，商人被认为是极其低贱的。
And all of a sudden he raises them up above scholars.
突然之间，他把他们提升到了学者之上。
They’re going to have certain rights.
他们将拥有某些权利。
For example, they get to be taxed one time.
例如，他们需要被征税一次。
Whatever the national tax is, that’s it.
不管国家税是多少，就是这样。
They’re not taxed every time they stop in some new town.
他们并不是每次在某个新城镇停留时都被征税。
2:23:15 And he created a set of what we would call rest houses, or recuperation centers, where they could get fresh horses, they could get food, they could deposit their money and get paper receipts that could be used anywhere in the empire.
他创建了一套我们所说的休息所或康复中心，在那里他们可以获得新鲜的马匹，他们可以获得食物，他们可以存钱并获得可以在帝国任何地方使用的纸质收据。
They were guaranteed protection.
他们得到了有保障的保护。
If they had to pass to an area where it might be dangerous, then a small group, a squad of men and horses would go with them.
如果他们要经过一个可能有危险的地方，那么一小群人、一队人马就会跟他们一起去。
So trade was extremely important.
所以贸易极其重要。
And then the Mongols also, they supported trade in a very odd way, and that is the merchants would come in, and they would ask for an outrageous price for some goods, much more than they should get, waiting for the Mongols to bargain them down.
然后蒙古人也以一种非常奇怪的方式支持贸易，那就是商人进来，他们会对一些商品开出离谱的价格，远远超过他们应该得到的价格，等待蒙古人讨价还价。
The Mongols would say, “I’ll give you much more than that.”
蒙古人会说：“我会给你的远不止这些。”
2:24:10 And his son, Ogedei Khan, was the one to ask, “Why do you do that?
他的儿子窝阔台汗问：“你为什么这么做？
You’ve got to stop doing that.” This was a Muslim financial advisor.
你必须停止这样做。”这是一位穆斯林财务顾问。
He’d called in.
他打来电话了。
He told him, “Well, you’ve got to stop paying more than people ask.” And Ogedei said, “Where’s the money going to go?
他告诉他，“好吧，你必须停止支付比人们要求的更多的钱。”窝阔台说：“钱去哪儿了？
It’s still in my empire.
它仍然在我的帝国里。
It’s going to come back eventually.” And so they had a much different attitude, with great respect.
它最终会回来的。”因此，他们的态度截然不同，充满尊重。
And I think a symbol of that is in the time of Kublai Khan, when we see that his uncle and father went to China and came back from China, and then on the second trip, Marco Polo went with him to China and back.
我认为一个象征是在忽必烈时代，当我们看到他的叔叔和父亲去中国并从中国回来时，然后在第二次旅行中，马可波罗与他一起去了中国并返回。
They were safe the whole way.
他们一路都很安全。
Their goods were safe.
他们的货物是安全的。
They came back with tremendous amount of wealth.
他们带着巨额财富回来了。
They were never harassed.
他们从未受到骚扰。
And the mere fact that they could cross, it took two years, but the mere fact that they could cross the whole continent safely and come back, it was unprecedented.
而光是能够穿越，就花了两年的时间，但是光是能够安全穿越整个大陆回来，就已经是前所未有的事情了。
We really don’t have any well-documented case of anybody, say, from China visiting Europe or Europe visiting China before the Mongols.
我们确实没有任何有据可查的案例，比如来自中国的人访问欧洲，或者欧洲在蒙古人之前访问中国。
But since Chinggis Khan, there’s never been a year without contact between east and west.
但自成吉思汗以来，东西方之间从未有过一年不接触的情况。
It was permanent.
这是永久的。
Once he created it, it was permanent.
一旦他创造了它，它就是永久性的。
I don’t think it’s possible to measure the positive impact of that, because it wasn’t just trade of goods.
我认为无法衡量其积极影响，因为这不仅仅是货物贸易。
2:25:19 It was also exchange, explicit or implicit, along the way, exchange of ideas.
一路上，这也是一种交流，无论是明确的还是隐含的，思想的交流。
Whether that’s exchange of technologies, exchange of philosophical ideas, scientific ideas, technical, mathematical ideas, all of this spread throughout and constantly circulating.
无论是技术的交流，还是哲学思想、科学思想、技术、数学思想的交流，这一切都在传播、不断循环。
Can you speak to that aspect of it?
您能谈谈这方面的情况吗？
Yes.
是的。
2:25:51 It was an exchange of ideas on every level.
这是各个层面上的思想交流。
Ideas, technology, ideologies, beliefs, scientific information, everything was being exchanged, and even agricultural goods, of new crops for new areas.
思想、技术、意识形态、信仰、科学信息，一切都在交换，甚至农产品、新作物的新领域也在交换。
But Chinggis Khan, he had, a part of his genius of organization, was knowing what skill people had that would contribute towards his empire.
但成吉思汗的组织天才之一是他知道人们拥有哪些技能可以为他的帝国做出贡献。
For example, the Muslims were very good with arithmetic.
例如，穆斯林非常擅长算术。
In fact, he conquered the little empire of Khorezm, from which we get the word algorithm, because it was a mathematician there who invented algorithms.
事实上，他征服了花剌子模小帝国，算法这个词就是从这里得到的，因为算法是那里的一位数学家发明的。
And so Khorezm, he conquered it very quickly, very easily, no problem, but it belonged to him.
所以花剌子模，他很快、很轻松地征服了它，没问题，但它属于他。
But the Muslims were using the zero.
但穆斯林使用的是零。
The Mongols were absolutely impressed with that.
蒙古人对此印象深刻。
The Chinese less so.
中国人则不然。
They were very suspicious about the zero.
他们对零非常怀疑。
But the Mongols were very impressed.
但蒙古人对此印象深刻。
Because herders, numbers are important to them for keeping up with their animals.
对于牧民来说，数字对于他们跟上牲畜的步伐非常重要。
2:26:54 In fact, the Mongols have a simple system.
事实上，蒙古人有一个简单的制度。
They reduce all animals to the number of horses.
他们将所有动物减少到马的数量。
You can ask somebody how many animals you can have, and they can say, “Well, 100 horses.” And it doesn’t mean they have 100 horses.
你可以问别人你可以养多少只动物，他们会说：“嗯，100 匹马。”这并不意味着他们有 100 匹马。
It’s going to be like five cows count as four horses, five sheep or five goats count as one horse, four camels count as five horses.
就像五头牛算作四匹马，五只绵羊或五只山羊算作一匹马，四头骆驼算作五匹马。
So they reduce it all down like that.
所以他们就这样减少了一切。
The Mongols take a census of everything.
蒙古人对一切都进行人口普查。
2:27:25 And that’s one of the first things Chinggis Khan did.
这是成吉思汗做的第一件事。
And that was one of the demands he made of every place he went, is a complete census of your people.
这是他对所到之处提出的要求之一，就是对你们的人民进行全面的人口普查。
And every house had to post outside, how many people, how many animals, what did they do, the occupations, all this information.
每个房子都必须在外面张贴，有多少人，有多少动物，他们做什么，从事什么职业，所有这些信息。
2:27:41 So they needed good mathematics for this.
所以他们需要良好的数学来做到这一点。
The Muslims provided it.
穆斯林提供了它。
So they took the Muslims to China, these Middle Eastern scholars and all.
所以他们把穆斯林、这些中东学者和所有人带到了中国。
Unfortunately, they were rather ruthless sometimes when it came to implementing the tax policies, but they became the financial advisors to him.
不幸的是，他们有时在执行税收政策时相当严厉，但他们却成为了他的财务顾问。
Other groups of people had other roles like that, and he was moving them around constantly.
其他群体的人也有类似的角色，他不断地调动他们。
And so you had a combination.
所以你有了一个组合。
As I said, he himself had that genius for combining new bits of technology, but it created a new kind of cultural spirit, in which other people were also combining technology at other levels, and being encouraged.
正如我所说，他本人具有结合新技术的天赋，但它创造了一种新的文化精神，在这种文化精神中，其他人也结合了其他层面的技术，并受到鼓励。
It was no longer heresy or the devil’s work to bring in this thing.
引入这个东西不再是异端或魔鬼的工作。
2:28:29 So we had the spread of printing, for example.
例如，我们有了印刷术的传播。
We had the partial spread of something such as print money, for example.
例如，我们有部分传播诸如印钞之类的东西。
But we had almanacs being created now through printing, that combined different calendars and different information that was coming along.
但我们现在通过印刷来创建年鉴，它结合了不同的日历和即将出现的不同信息。
But one simple but lethal form of technology was that, for example, Chinese had gunpowder.
但一种简单但致命的技术形式是，例如，中国拥有火药。
Mostly it was used for fireworks, religious things, and then sometimes in warfare was used for kind of primitive hand grenade, or primitive bomb that could be thrown with a trebuchet.
它主要用于烟花、宗教物品，有时在战争中被用于一种原始的手榴弹，或可以用投石机投掷的原始炸弹。
2:29:04 This was in the time of Kublai Khan more, the grandson.
这是忽必烈的孙子忽必烈时代的事。
So they had that.
所以他们就有了。
The Middle Eastern, the Muslims, and the Byzantines, especially, they had naphtha, what we call Greek fire, flamethrowers that could set things on fire.
尤其是中东、穆斯林和拜占庭人，他们有石脑油，我们称之为希腊火，可以点燃物体的火焰喷射器。
The Europeans did not excel very much in technology.
欧洲人在技术方面并不十分出色。
They were behind in almost everything, but they could cast bells for churches.
他们几乎在所有事情上都落后了，但他们可以为教堂敲钟。
2:29:31 Okay, let’s take that bell and we’re going to turn it on its side, and we’re going to use the principles of the flamethrower, and we’re going to use the gunpowder from China, and you’ve got a cannon.
好吧，让我们把那个铃铛翻过来，我们将使用火焰喷射器的原理，我们将使用来自中国的火药，然后你就得到了一门大炮。
So the Mongols, even early on, by the time they got to the siege of Baghdad, but not, I think, in the lifetime of Chinggis Khan, but soon thereafter, in his sons and grandsons, they were using some very primitive forms of cannon.
因此，蒙古人，甚至很早，当他们围攻巴格达时，但我认为不是在成吉思汗的一生中，但此后不久，在他的儿子和孙子身上，他们就使用了一些非常原始的大炮。
And even something like firing rods.
甚至还有像发射棒之类的东西。
We can’t even call it anything like a rifle, but it could fire a very small ballistic device and all.
我们甚至不能称它为步枪，但它可以发射非常小的弹道装置等等。
So this combination of metallurgy, gunpowder, flamethrowers, you put it all together and you come up with something incredibly different.
因此，冶金、火药、火焰喷射器的组合，你把它们放在一起，你就会想出一些令人难以置信的不同的东西。
So if we jump around a little bit on the topic of a cannon, what are some technological developments that Chinggis Khan, and his son, and Kublai Khan were using?
那么，如果我们稍微讨论一下大炮的话题，成吉思汗、他的儿子和忽必烈使用了哪些技术发展？
2:30:21 So how much gunpowder were they using?
那么他们使用了多少火药呢？
In general, what was their approach to siege warfare, for example?
例如，一般而言，他们的攻城战方法是什么？
What are some different ideas there?
其中有哪些不同的想法？
If we switch to the grandson, Kublai Khan, first of all, he changed a lot of the strategies that were no longer working.
如果换到忽必烈的孙子，首先他改变了很多已经行不通的策略。
2:30:44 The Mongol system worked perfectly on the grassland, but by the time you get to Hungary, the grassland starts to give out.
蒙古的系统在草原上运行得很好，但当你到达匈牙利时，草原开始失效。
By the time you get to Poland, it’s so many farms.
当你到达波兰时，那里有很多农场。
It’s hard for horses to get through to farms, and they don’t want to go on the roads.
马很难到达农场，而且它们也不想上路。
By the time you get to the Indus River, it’s too hot, too humid.
当你到达印度河时，天气太热、太潮湿了。
The bows are beginning to wilt.
弓开始枯萎。
The horses are exhausted.
马匹已经筋疲力尽了。
It’s not working.
它不起作用。
2:31:15 So to conquer South China, Kublai Khan had to come up with new things.
所以为了征服南中国，忽必烈不得不想出新办法。
One thing, the South Chinese had built a great wall.
有一件事，中国南方人建造了一座长城。
It was called the Great Wall of the Sea.
它被称为海上长城。
This is before the wall that we know as the Great Wall, which is really the Ming Wall, of the Ming Dynasty, was built, but the Great Wall of the Sea.
这是在我们所知道的长城建成之前，实际上是明朝的明长城，而是海上长城。
And they used it as a defensive navy.
他们用它作为防御海军。
They had the largest navy in the world.
他们拥有世界上最大的海军。
It was defensive, and it was both literally defensive, and it came time for warfare, they would chain the ships together across the mouth of a harbor to protect the city.
它是防御性的，而且实际上都是防御性的，到了战争的时候了，他们会将船只串在一起穿过港口以保护城市。
And so it became a wall.
于是它就变成了一堵墙。
So actually, if we rewind, Kublai Khan, who was he?
事实上，如果我们回顾一下，忽必烈汗，他是谁？
2:31:52 And what was the state of China at that time?
而当时中国的状况又是怎样呢？
That kind of sets up this idea of ships and siege warfare?
就这样建立了船只和攻城战的想法？
In 1215, Chinggis Khan conquered the city we now know as Beijing.
1215年，成吉思汗征服了我们现在称为北京的城市。
2:32:05 It was the capital of the Jin Dynasty of Northern China.
它是中国北方金朝的首都。
And at that time, Southern China was ruled by the Song Dynasty, or usually called the Southern Song.
当时的中国南方是宋朝统治的，或者通常称为南宋。
He had already conquered the Xi Xia Kingdom of the Tangut people.
他已经征服了西夏人的西夏王国。
And so most of Northern China was under the control of the Mongols from about 1215.
因此，从 1215 年左右开始，中国北方的大部分地区就处于蒙古人的控制之下。
And then he conquered middle later, his descendants conquered middle, and then Kublai Khan was the one to take on the south.
后来他征服了中部，他的子孙又征服了中部，然后忽必烈就征服了南方。
2:32:38 But Kublai Khan was born that year in 1215, about three months after the capture of Beijing.
但忽必烈汗出生于那一年，即 1215 年，也就是攻克北京三个月后。
And he was nobody.
而他却无名小卒。
He was the second son of the fourth son of Chinggis Khan.
他是成吉思汗第四子的次子。
Well, he’s got lots of cousins out there who’ve been riding around.
嗯，他有很多表兄弟姐妹一直在外面骑车。
They’re conquering Russia, and they’ve already burned down Kiev, and they’ve conquered different places in the world.
他们正在征服俄罗斯，他们已经烧毁了基辅，他们已经征服了世界上不同的地方。
2:33:01 They’re real Mongols.
他们是真正的蒙古人。
That’s their whole life.
这就是他们的一生。
And he’s born, and he doesn’t meet Chinggis Khan until he’s about seven years old, because Chinggis Khan was away on a conquest in Central Asia.
他出生了，直到大约七岁才见到成吉思汗，因为成吉思汗正在中亚进行征服。
And Chinggis Khan came back and he met him and he said, “Oh, he doesn’t look like a Mongol.
成吉思汗回来后遇见了他，他说：“哦，他看起来不像蒙古人。
He looks like his mother’s people.” His mother was Sorghaghtani, who was actually a part of the royal family of the Merkit people, whom he had conquered sometime earlier.
他看起来就像他母亲的人。”他的母亲是索尔加塔尼（Sorghaghtani），实际上是他早些时候征服的梅尔基特人王室成员。
2:33:28 And he said, ” He looks like his mother’s people,” who is a little bit more tawny.
他说，“他看起来像他母亲的人”，他的肤色更黄一点。
Mongols tend to be very white with very bright red cheeks, and have a certain very round face, and so on.
蒙古人的皮肤往往很白，脸颊很红，脸很圆，等等。
And so he looked different.
所以他看起来有所不同。
And for whatever reason, his mother, I think she recognized the difference, and treated him differently.
无论出于何种原因，我认为他的母亲认识到了这种差异，并以不同的方式对待他。
Her oldest son was called Mongke, later Mongke Khan, Mongke, and she wanted him to become, even though her husband was a drunk, who died out on campaign drunk, and she took over northern China and she began to put it together.
她的大儿子叫蒙哥，后来叫蒙哥汗，蒙哥，她希望他成为蒙哥，尽管她的丈夫是个酒鬼，在一场运动中醉酒而亡，她接管了中国北方，并开始把它整合起来。
2:34:07 And she wanted her son to become the Great Khan, the emperor of the Mongol Empire.
她希望她的儿子成为大汗，蒙古帝国的皇帝。
And this wasn’t in line.
这不符合要求。
This wasn’t going to happen.
这不会发生。
Because he’s the fourth son out of three, others are way in line, way ahead of her.
因为他是三个儿子中的第四个，所以其他人都排得很长，远远领先于她。
2:34:21 But she calls the revolution.
但她称之为革命。
She made it happen.
她让这一切发生了。
She put her son in, Mongke Khan in 1251.
1251年，她将儿子蒙哥汗封为王。
He became Great Khan.
他成为了大汗。
He only lived till 1259.
他只活到了1259年。
He died of something.
他死于某事。
It could have been cholera, or there are different stories, and I don’t know the truth of it, but he died on campaign in China trying to conquer Southern China.
可能是霍乱，或者有不同的故事，我不知道真相，但他在试图征服中国南方的中国战役中去世。
2:34:42 Well, up to this point, Kublai Khan had not been distinguishing himself.
嗯，到目前为止，忽必烈汗还没有表现出自己的特色。
His mother was, she was a Christian woman, but she had a Buddhist nurse for him.
他的母亲是一名基督教妇女，但她为他安排了一名佛教护士。
And she had Chinese scholars come in to tutor him.
她还请了中国学者来辅导他。
She had a very good education for him.
她为他提供了很好的教育。
And I think that she planned that he was going to be a great administrator under his older brother, and he was going to administer the lands in China.
我认为她计划让他成为他哥哥手下的一位伟大的管理者，他将管理中国的土地。
2:35:07 And so he was learning all this stuff for it.
所以他正在为此学习所有这些东西。
But the older brother, he insisted on sending him out on campaign.
但哥哥却坚持派他出去竞选。
Oh, but he was overweight, he was fat, he had gout.
哦，但是他超重，他很胖，他患有痛风。
He needed to go rest.
他需要去休息。
There was always some excuse.
总是有一些借口。
And the brother was assigning people, Uriyangkhadai, who was the son of Subutai, the great general, he assigned him to teach him warfare.
而哥哥正在指派人乌里央哈代，他是大将军速不台的儿子，指派他教他兵法。
He wasn’t great on the battlefield.
他在战场上的表现并不出色。
He really was not.
他确实不是。
But he was very smart.
但他非常聪明。
And at first a little bit lazy, he liked talking about the religion, sitting around, go hunting, as long as he had many with him to do the shooting, and then to prepare the food and all.
而且一开始有点懒，喜欢谈论宗教，围坐在一起，去打猎，只要有很多人陪他就可以拍摄，然后准备食物什么的。
And his territory in Northern China was just being run into the dirt by these administrators the Mongols had brought in.
他在中国北方的领土刚刚被蒙古人带来的这些行政官员践踏殆尽。
They were just overtaxing the people, cheating the people, doing everything wrong.
他们只是对人民过度征税，欺骗人民，做的一切都是错的。
And his mother basically just pulled his chain and she said, “Go to your land.
他的母亲基本上只是拉了他的链子，然后说：“回到你的土地去。
This is your land.
这是你的土地。
You have to administer this land.
你必须管理这片土地。
You go there, you live there, you take charge.” And everybody was terrified of the mother.
你去那里，住在那里，你负责。”每个人都害怕母亲。
So he ran off to China and he started administering his land, and he started learning how to do it.
于是他跑到中国，开始管理他的土地，并开始学习如何去做。
2:36:19 Well, when his brother died in 1259, he was down on the Yangtze River, on a campaign that he was sent by his brother.
好吧，当他的兄弟于 1259 年去世时，他正在长江边，参加他兄弟派他去的一场战役。
He was having no success at all.
他根本没有取得任何成功。
But he thought, “Okay, the brother’s dead.
但他想：“好吧，兄弟死了。
I should finish the campaign.” Meanwhile, his youngest brother, Ariq Boke, Ariq Boke was another hothead Mongol like their father, Tolui.
我应该完成竞选活动。”与此同时，他最小的弟弟阿里不哥，阿里不哥是另一个性急的蒙古人，就像他们的父亲拖雷一样。
He was rather hotheaded.
他相当急躁。
And he was back in Mongolia.
他回到了蒙古。
And his tolerance for religions, he had to oversee the debate one time between the Daoists and the Buddhists, because the Mongols thought the Daoists were overtaxing everybody, the Buddhists.
由于他对宗教的宽容，他不得不监督一次道教和佛教徒之间的辩论，因为蒙古人认为道教让每个人，包括佛教徒，都负担过重。
2:36:54 So he had to oversee it.
所以他必须监督这件事。
He got mad, and he picked up a statue of the Buddha and beat the Daoist representative to death.
他生气了，拿起一尊佛像，把道代表打死了。
So he just wasn’t good for moderating debates.
所以他不擅长主持辩论。
So he was going to be the new Great Khan.
所以他将成为新的大汗。
So he was declared the Great Khan in Mongolia.
于是他被封为蒙古大汗。
But this was a turning life for Kublai Khan, who had never achieved much of anything other than talking to people.
但这对忽必烈来说是一个转折性的人生，他除了与人交谈之外从未取得过任何成就。
2:37:20 So his wife, Chabi sent him some coded messages, basically telling him, “Forget about Southern China.
所以他的妻子查比给他发了一些密码信息，基本上是告诉他，“忘掉中国南方吧。
It’s going to always be there.
它会永远存在。
You can conquer that some other time.
你可以改天再克服它。
Right now, your brother is taking over the empire.
现在，你的兄弟正在接管帝国。
You should be the new Emperor.
你应该成为新的皇帝。
You are the next son after Mongke Khan.” And somehow she invigorated him, and he came back.
你是蒙哥汗的下一个儿子。”不知怎的，她给了他活力，他回来了。
And even though he didn’t have all the military strategy, he had Northern China, the resources were immense.
而且虽然他没有全部的军事战略，但是他有华北，资源巨大。
2:37:52 He could cut off Mongolia.
他可以切断蒙古的联系。
Mongolia was very dependent on Northern China for food.
蒙古非常依赖中国北方的粮食。
All the Mongols supported Ariq Boke, all the ones in Central Asia, all of whom were supporting Ariq Boke.
所有蒙古人都支持阿里不哥，所有中亚人都支持阿里不哥。
So he went to get food from them, and then they didn’t want to give up their food.
于是他去向他们要食物，然后他们就不想放弃他们的食物。
“Yeah, we want to support you for Great Khan, but we’re not giving up our food.” So he was basically starved into submission in 1262.
“是的，我们想为大汗支持你，但我们不会放弃我们的食物。”所以他在1262年基本上是被饿死而屈服的。
And then he was taken prisoner into China, and then he mysteriously passed away in 1264, while a legal case was being brought against him for trial, but he never made it to trial.
然后他被俘虏到中国，然后于1264年神秘去世，当时正在对他提起诉讼，但他从未出庭受审。
He was gone.
他走了。
2:38:38 So Kublai Khan had not really distinguished himself very much, but he didn’t have the genius of his grandfather.
所以说忽必烈本身并没有什么出众的地方，但他也没有他祖父那样的天才。
I won’t say that.
我不会这么说。
But he was smart and clever.
但他很聪明，很聪明。
He understood more about China than most Mongols did, and he understood more about Mongols than most Chinese did.
他比大多数蒙古人更了解中国，他也比大多数中国人更了解蒙古人。
2:38:59 So the great thing left, that Chinggis Khan said on his deathbed, “Finish conquering China.” That was the great objective.
因此，成吉思汗临终前所说的伟大事业留下了：“完成对中国的征服。”这是伟大的目标。
So Kublai was going to fulfill this, and they didn’t know how.
所以忽必烈要实现这个目标，但他们不知道如何实现。
The Great Wall of Ships was protecting the Southern Song.
船长城保护着南宋。
This huge Yangtze River was so wide, the ocean on the side, all of these things were protecting them.
这条巨大的长江如此宽阔，旁边还有大海，所有这些都在保护着他们。
2:39:25 So he had one of his very smart generals named Aju, who was a real Mongol, but he was also able to think in innovative way.
所以他有一位非常聪明的将军，名叫阿朱，他是一个真正的蒙古人，但他也能够以创新的方式思考。
He was the grandson of Subutai, and he went with his father Uriyangkhadai on the conquest of the Red River of Northern Vietnam against the Dai Viet people.
他是速不台的孙子，随父亲乌日扬卡岱一起征服了越南北部的红河，对抗大越人。
They went down the river.
他们顺河而下。
They were trying to surround this Chinese territory.
他们试图包围这片中国领土。
So they were going to hit them from the north, from the west, and from the south.
所以他们将从北面、西面和南面攻击他们。
So they went down the Red River to conquer the Dai Viet.
于是他们顺红河而下，征服了傣越。
The Dai Viet moved the army up on the other side by boat.
大越人乘船将军队移至对岸。
And then they had a whole core of elephants.
然后他们就有了整个大象的核心。
2:40:05 So they have the Mongols on one side of the river, the Dai Viet forces on the other side.
因此，蒙古人在河的一侧，大越军队在河的另一侧。
Uriyangkhadai was a smart man, not a genius, but smart.
Uriyangkhadai 是一个聪明人，不是天才，而是聪明人。
And he already knew from campaigns in Burma that the only way to route the elephants was with flaming arrows to their feet.
他从缅甸的战役中已经知道，驱赶大象的唯一方法就是用燃烧的箭射到大象的脚上。
That was it.
就是这样。
But he recognized that they came up on boats.
但他认出他们是乘船上来的。
Mongols didn’t like boats.
蒙古人不喜欢船。
They crossed the river on a goatskin.
他们骑着山羊皮过河。
They wanted to do something organic.
他们想做一些有机的事情。
A boat was like a cart.
船就像一辆马车。
A cart belonged to a woman.
一辆手推车属于一位女士。
It was a floating cart.
那是一辆漂浮的手推车。
I am not going over on a floating cart.
我不会乘坐漂浮的手推车过去。
I’m going to ride a goatskin across the river.
我要骑着山羊皮过河。
So he’s assigned one detachment, “You have to burn the boats so the Dai Viet cannot escape when we route the elephants.”
所以他被指派了一支小队，“你必须烧掉船只，这样当我们驱赶大象时，大越人就无法逃脱。”
2:40:54 Well, the battle, I mean, got started.
好吧，我的意思是，战斗开始了。
The elephants are running wild.
大象正在疯狂奔跑。
All kinds of chaos is going on.
各种混乱正在发生。
The group that’s sent to burn the boats, they’re Mongols.
被派去烧船的那群人是蒙古人。
They want to go to war.
他们想要发动战争。
Why burn a bunch of women’s carts?
为什么要烧一堆女人的手推车？
It’s just not floating …
只是不漂浮而已……
So they go and join the battle.
于是他们就去参加战斗。
They leave the boats.
他们离开了船。
Well, the Mongols won the battle, but the Dai Viet forces got on the boats and sailed back to what’s now Hanoi.
好吧，蒙古人赢得了这场战斗，但大越军队却上了船，驶回了现在的河内。
And then they evacuated the city, took all the food, everything out of the city, and they disappeared into the Delta.
然后他们撤离了城市，把所有的食物、所有的东西都带出了城市，然后消失在三角洲里。
The Mongols arrived.
蒙古人来了。
They conquered, quote-unquote, Hanoi, the capital city.
他们征服了首都河内。
And they had nothing.
而他们一无所有。
They had nothing.
他们一无所有。
They won every battle, they lost the war.
他们赢得了每场战斗，却输掉了整个战争。
They retreated.
他们撤退了。
Aju was the son of Uriyangkhadai, and he saw all this happen, and he recognized the importance of water and boats.
阿朱是乌里扬哈代的儿子，他看到了这一切的发生，他认识到了水和船的重要性。
And so he knew, and he spent his time studying the Yangtze River and every little river around it, and the cities.
他知道这一点，并花时间研究长江及其周围的每条小河以及城市。
2:41:55 And the crucial thing he saw was the cities are heavily, heavily fortified on the land side, because invasion comes from the land, and they expect this little line of boats to protect them on the water.
他看到的最重要的一点是，这些城市在陆地方面戒备森严，因为入侵来自陆地，他们希望这一小排船只能够在水上保护他们。
And so their city walls are weak.
所以他们的城墙很脆弱。
The defenses are weak on that side.
那边的防守很薄弱。
That’s where we have to attack.
这就是我们必须攻击的地方。
So how?
那么如何呢？
2:42:15 They sent off to the Ilkhanate, to Persia, where Chinggis Khan, his uncle was now dead, and his cousins were ruling there, or his nephews, we would say, or cousins, nephews.
他们被派往伊尔汗国，前往波斯，成吉思汗，他的叔叔现在已经死了，他的表兄弟在那里统治，或者我们会说他的侄子，或者表兄弟，侄子。
So they sent over engineers to build special kind of trebuchet, a catapult.
因此他们派出工程师来建造一种特殊的投石机，即弹射器。
And they had to play around with it to adapt it for a boat, because they were usually made for stable ground, but they adapted it for the boat and for throwing heavy things.
他们必须尝试调整它以适应船，因为它们通常是为稳定的地面而设计的，但他们将其适应于船和投掷重物。
And also for some incendiary bombs, they developed it.
他们还为一些燃烧弹开发了它。
They attacked the first city, it fell.
他们攻击了第一座城市，它被攻陷了。
They attacked the …
他们袭击了……
it fell.
它掉下来了。
They had something that was working.
他们有一些有效的东西。
They worked their way down the Yangtze River, destroying city after city with this navy.
他们沿着长江一路前进，用这支海军摧毁了一座又一座城市。
And then the army would move in after the navy had broken down.
海军崩溃后，陆军就会进驻。
So this is a catapult on a ship?
这是船上的弹射器吗？
Catapult on a ship.
船上的弹射器。
2:43:06 But yeah, we call it trebuchet for this type of catapult.
但是，是的，我们称这种弹射器为投石机。
So this is an engineering solution for peoples who are deeply uncomfortable with boats?
那么，对于那些对船只感到非常不舒服的人来说，这是一个工程解决方案吗？
Yes.
是的。
And they’ve accepted it.
他们已经接受了。
Yes.
是的。
2:43:19 Now it’s a great weapon.
现在它是一个很棒的武器。
It’s no longer a woman’s cart.
它不再是女人的手推车。
It’s a bow and arrow.
这是一把弓和箭。
It is a giant bow and arrow.
这是一把巨大的弓箭。
Yeah, it’s fascinating.
是的，这很有趣。
2:43:28 So they hit them hard on the walls, on the weak side, where there’s no, the army protection.
所以他们狠狠地打了他们的墙，打在薄弱的一面，那里没有军队的保护。
Yes.
是的。
2:43:35 And they conquer their way down to Hangzhou, the capital of the Southern Song.
他们一路征服南宋都城杭州。
They’ve been in power for a long time, since 970, on now we’re already into the 1270s.
他们已经掌权很长时间了，从970年开始，现在我们已经进入了1270年代。
That’s a long time.
那是很长一段时间了。
They’re dissipated.
他们消散了。
They’ve been, had child, they had imbeciles ruling, all kinds of things going on.
他们曾经有过孩子，他们有过愚蠢的统治，各种各样的事情都在发生。
2:43:59 And at this point, we have a child in command.
此时，我们有一个孩子在指挥。
But Kublai makes a very strange move.
但忽必烈做出了一个非常奇怪的举动。
He says, “Okay, let’s invade Japan now.
他说：“好吧，我们现在就入侵日本吧。
They’re thinking, “What?
他们在想：“什么？
Wait, wait, wait.
等等，等等，等等。
We’re fighting against the Song Dynasty.” And most people ascribe it to all kinds of things.
我们正在与宋朝作战。”大多数人将其归因于各种事物。
But actually I think there was a great logic to it.
但实际上我认为其中有一个很好的逻辑。
One was, he had abolished his grandfather’s policy of defeat and destroy until they are no more.
一是，他废除了祖父的失败和毁灭政策，直到他们不再存在。
That was the phrase that was used for their enemies.
这是用来形容他们的敌人的短语。
And he had replaced it with a kind of mercy policy.
他用一种仁慈政策取而代之。
Try to incorporate them into your army of possible, but be merciful.
尝试将他们纳入你的可能队伍中，但要仁慈。
He did not want to destroy.
他不想破坏。
And he was not.
但他不是。
He had a lot of defectors coming in.
他有很多叛逃者进来。
And because the Mongols prized people with skills, a lot of very clever people, with ship building, and engineers, and these people were flocking to the Mongols.
因为蒙古人看重有技能的人，所以很多非常聪明的人，比如造船的人和工程师，这些人都涌向蒙古人。
Whereas the scholars were all hanging out in Guangzhou, doing calligraphy, and poetry, and having contests over who could sing or paint or …
而读书人都在广州闲逛，写书法、写诗，比比谁能唱歌、能画画……
I don’t know what scholars do, but they were being scholars.
我不知道学者做什么，但他们就是学者。
Yes.
是的。
But there actually, I think there’s a very, very good reason for invading Japan.
但实际上，我认为入侵日本是有一个非常非常充分的理由的。
2:45:11 Several.
几个。
The main one was to cut off the supply of sulfur.
主要的一项是切断硫磺的供应。
They needed it for gunpowder in the South Song.
南宋他们需要它作为火药。
They lost their sources in northern China when they were driven out.
当他们被赶出中国北方时，他们就失去了来源。
They got it from Japan.
他们从日本得到的。
It was a great source.
这是一个很好的来源。
2:45:31 But I think there were other reasons.
但我认为还有其他原因。
If they could trade, they could also perhaps flee to Japan.
如果他们可以进行贸易，他们也许也可以逃到日本。
And they didn’t want that to happen.
他们不希望这种情况发生。
And then there’s this idea of kill the chicken to scare the monkey.
于是就有了杀鸡吓猴的想法。
It’s like, okay, we’ll go do this.
就像，好吧，我们就去做这件事。
And then maybe they’ll just surrender down there if they see us conquer Japan.
如果他们看到我们征服日本，也许他们就会在那里投降。
2:45:50 Well, it was a total failure.
好吧，这是一次彻底的失败。
You’ve got a bunch of ships that are mainly great on the river and right along the coast, and you’re crossing some treacherous water there.
你有一堆船，主要在河流和沿海地区航行，而你正在那里穿越一些危险的水域。
And the Mongols basically just did not know what they were doing.
蒙古人基本上不知道他们在做什么。
Okay, you can arrive with the trebuchet and you can throw grenades at the beach.
好吧，你可以带着投石机到达，你可以在海滩上扔手榴弹。
It’s not really going to do a lot of damage.
它实际上不会造成很大的损害。
It might scare a few horses, but you’re not destroying cities.
它可能会吓到几匹马，但你不会摧毁城市。
And the Japanese cities were more in, they weren’t on the beach waiting for Mongols to come invade.
日本的城市更多的是在海滩上，他们没有在海滩上等待蒙古人入侵。
So he failed in that invasion.
所以他这次入侵失败了。
So we should say that this is the time of the samurai, right?
那么我们应该说这是武士的时代吧？
2:46:22 In Japan.
在日本。
Yeah, the Samurai.
是的，武士。
So there was never a real test of that-
所以从来没有对此进行过真正的测试-
No.
不。
2:46:32 There was some fighting.
发生了一些战斗。
And the Samurai learned some very valuable things.
武士学到了一些非常有价值的东西。
The samurai had such a ritualized way of writing.
武士有一种仪式化的写作方式。
It’s like the knights of Europe, coming out with armor that had to be lifted up on a crane onto a horse.
这就像欧洲的骑士，带着盔甲出来，必须用起重机将其吊到马上。
And I mean, it was just craziness.
我的意思是，这太疯狂了。
Craziness.
疯狂。
2:46:48 The samurai, almost at that point, you ride out in front of your enemy and you recite the story of your genealogy.
武士，几乎就在那时，你骑在敌人面前，背诵你的家谱故事。
What?
什么？
Mongols, they have no use for that.
蒙古人，他们没有这个用处。
They’re there to fight.
他们是来战斗的。
They’re there to win.
他们是为了胜利。
But on the other hand, this was unknown territory to them, and the weather did turn against them.
但另一方面，这对他们来说是未知的领域，而且天气也确实对他们不利。
But I don’t want to give too much credit to the weather.
但我不想把太多的功劳归咎于天气。
I really think that the Japanese defeated them.
我真的认为日本人打败了他们。
The Mongols weren’t well-prepared.
蒙古人并没有做好充分的准备。
Their ships were not very good.
他们的船不是很好。
They were defeated in the first invasion.
他们在第一次入侵中被击败。
Could they get off the ships onto the beach?
他们能下船到海滩上吗？
Oh, they did.
哦，他们做到了。
2:47:23 They had some skirmishes or small battles on land.
他们在陆地上发生了一些小冲突或小规模战斗。
Yes, they did.
是的，他们做到了。
But they didn’t successfully complete them [inaudible 02:47:31]-
但他们没有成功完成它们 [听不清 02:47:31]-
No, no.
不，不。
So they couldn’t do their usual Mongol thing.
所以他们不能做他们通常的蒙古人的事情。
Right.
对。
2:47:33 Well, see, they don’t have enough horses, for one thing.
嗯，你看，一方面，他们没有足够的马匹。
And there were many tactical things that they had done incorrectly.
而且他们有很多战术上的做法是错误的。
It’s the first time anybody had ever tried to have such a massive invasion.
这是第一次有人尝试进行如此大规模的入侵。
So they’re just learning the basics of what it means to have a navy.
所以他们只是在学习拥有海军意味着什么的基础知识。
So he has failed to conquer, and he’s thinking like a Mongol, that you rule those waters and lands.
所以他未能征服，他像蒙古人一样思考，你统治着那些水域和土地。
2:47:50 But he ruled the ocean.
但他统治着海洋。
He stopped the trade.
他停止了交易。
He stopped the supply.
他停止了供应。
He cut off the possibility of the Song dynasty fleeing to Japan.
他切断了宋朝逃往日本的可能性。
He won, in a certain way.
从某种程度上来说，他赢了。
He lost, but he had won his objective of cutting off southern China.
他输了，但他实现了切断华南地区的目标。
2:48:16 Also, it gave him, navy some experience with the ocean, and now they were ready to move out into the ocean around Southern China.
而且，这也让他的海军有了一些海洋方面的经验，现在他们已经准备好进军华南周围的海域了。
So they were closing in then.
所以他们当时正在逼近。
Aju was in command.
阿朱指挥。
But actually the head command was a man named Bayan, who was a Mongol who had been raised more in Central Asia.
但实际上指挥者是一个名叫巴彦的人，他是一个在中亚长大的蒙古人。
He was perhaps close to the Fergana Valley, in that area.
他可能靠近费尔干纳山谷，就在那个地区。
We’re not exactly sure where he was born, but he grew up over there.
我们不确定他出生在哪里，但他在那里长大。
And then he eventually was living in what’s now Iran.
然后他最终生活在现在的伊朗。
2:48:49 But he came and he took over command of the army.
但他来了，并接管了军队的指挥权。
He was very cosmopolitan, sophisticated, intelligent.
他非常国际化、老练、聪明。
Aju should have been in command.
应该由阿朱指挥。
But Bayan recognized that, and he and Aju worked together very well.
但巴彦认识到了这一点，他和阿朱合作得非常好。
Aju knew how to fight the war.
阿朱知道如何打仗。
Bayan was able to negotiate things back with the capital city and handle things.
巴彦能够跟京城交涉回来，处理事情。
So Bayan is in command.
于是巴彦指挥。
2:49:14 And so the generals are deserting the South Song right and left.
于是，南宋的将领们纷纷抛弃南宋。
The artisans are all coming up to join the Mongols, get paid.
工匠们都来加入蒙古人，领取报酬。
The generals are loading up the boats with all the jewels, and they grab a couple of brothers to the little five-year- old emperor, and they put them on a boat, and they’re fleeing.
将军们正把所有的珠宝都装上船，他们抓住了五岁小皇帝的几个兄弟，把他们放在船上，然后他们就逃走了。
They even deserted their own families.
他们甚至抛弃了自己的家人。
The generals were corrupt cowards who fled.
将军们都是逃跑的腐败懦夫。
The person left in charge was the Dowager Empress, an old lady.
留下来负责的人是太后，一位老太太。
She had no children.
她没有孩子。
Cixi was her name, the Dowager Empress Cixi.
慈禧是她的名字，慈禧太后。
They said she was missing an eye.
他们说她失去了一只眼睛。
She was ugly.
她很丑。
They called her Ugly Cixi.
他们称她为“丑慈禧”。
That’s what they called her at that time.
当时他们就是这样称呼她的。
She was in charge, and she offered the Mongols everything.
她负责，并为蒙古人提供一切。
“I’ll give you everything-“
“我会给你一切——”
2:50:00 And she offered the Mongols everything.
她向蒙古人提供了一切。
“I’ll give you everything.
“我会给你一切。
Please let the emperor stay.
请皇上留下来。
Okay, even if you demote him to just being a king, please let him stay.” Bayan said, “No, total surrender.
好吧，就算你把他贬为王，也请让他留下来吧。”巴彦说：“不，完全投降。
Total surrender.” So she decided to surrender.
彻底投降。”于是她决定投降。
Well, she said, “Yes, we will surrender the capitol.” So Bayan came in with a small group of soldiers.
好吧，她说：“是的，我们将交出国会大厦。”于是巴彦带着一小队士兵进来了。
They looked around and she invited him to come to the palace to surrender.
他们环顾四周，她邀请他来宫投降。
And he said, “No, I didn’t win this war in a palace.
他说：“不，我没有在宫殿里赢得这场战争。
My soldiers won this war in the field.
我的士兵在战场上赢得了这场战争。
You have to come with the emperor in front of my soldiers to surrender.” But he did not harm her, he respected her, and there was no looting of the city.
你必须和皇帝一起到我的士兵面前投降。”但他并没有伤害她，他尊重她，也没有发生对城市的抢劫。
Now, later, they take everything in a very systematic way.
现在，后来，他们以非常系统的方式对待一切。
They take the archives and all this kind of stuff away, but there was no wholesale looting, a killing of people, nothing like that.
他们拿走了档案和所有类似的东西，但没有发生大规模的抢劫、杀人之类的事情。
2:50:56 So they’ve taken the capitol and she comes out, she surrenders, she bows on the ground towards Beijing, and then she takes the child emperor and they slowly make their way.
所以他们占领了国会大厦，她出来，她投降，她向北京鞠躬，然后她带着孩子皇帝，他们慢慢上路。
She was a little bit sick.
她有点病了。
It took her a longer time to Beijing, and they surrender again in a public ceremony, bowing to the Kublai Khan.
她花了更长的时间才到达北京，他们在公开仪式上再次投降，向忽必烈汗鞠躬。
He gives each of them a palace.
他给了他们每人一座宫殿。
He gives them a new title.
他给了他们一个新的头衔。
He’s trying to show the world this is the new face of Mongols.
他试图向世界展示这是蒙古人的新面孔。
We don’t kill off the old people anymore who are ruling.
我们不再杀害那些统治的老人了。
We’re gonna give them a palace, treat them nicely and all.
我们要给他们一座宫殿，善待他们等等。
But the navy that had fled did not defend the city.
但逃离的海军并没有保卫这座城市。
Those cowardly generals, they made the new little boy, seven-year-old brother, half-brother to Emperor Gong, was his name.
那些胆怯的将领，他们给新生了一个小男孩，七岁的弟弟，恭帝同父异母的弟弟，就是他的名字。
They made him the emperor.
他们拥立他为皇帝。
2:51:54 Well, they’re just floating around on the ocean, losing all support from city after city.
好吧，他们只是漂浮在海洋上，失去了一个又一个城市的所有支持。
The Muslims, who were controlling the trade and controlling many of the ships of that area, they were Chinese Muslims, but they were still Muslims.
控制贸易并控制该地区许多船只的穆斯林，他们是中国穆斯林，但他们仍然是穆斯林。
They switched sides to the Mongols because of the religious freedom thing, and because they were merchants and their status would be raised.
他们因为宗教自由而倒向蒙古人，因为他们是商人，他们的地位会得到提高。
The Muslims were switching over.
穆斯林正在转变。
The fleet was kind of a fleet lost without a country out there.
这支舰队就像是一支失去了国家的舰队。
They had some loyal supporters, some places.
他们在某些地方有一些忠实的支持者。
They drop the emperor into ocean.
他们把皇帝扔进海里。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
How do you drop an emperor into ocean?
怎么把皇帝扔进海里？
2:52:37 They accidentally spilled him in the ocean, and then they fished him out, but he died.
他们不小心把他扔进了海里，然后他们把他捞了上来，但他死了。
So fortunately they had one more seven year old half brother, so on Lantau Island, exactly where the Hong Kong airport is today, the new…
幸运的是，他们还有一个七岁的同父异母的兄弟，所以在大屿山，也就是今天的香港机场所在的地方，新的……
well, it’s not so new anymore, but I still think it was the new airport on Lantau Island.
嗯，它已经不那么新了，但我仍然认为这是大屿山的新机场。
So they went there and they had a big coronation ceremony and all, but the people there were not supportive enough.
所以他们去了那里，举行了盛大的加冕仪式等等，但那里的人们并没有足够的支持。
It certainly wasn’t Hong Kong then, anyway, the delta of the Pearl River.
无论如何，它肯定不是当时的香港，而是珠江三角洲。
So they sailed out farther south to another island, and then they took it over.
于是他们向南航行到另一个岛屿，然后占领了它。
And of course, the first thing they did was, well, we have to build a palace.
当然，他们做的第一件事就是，我们必须建造一座宫殿。
What?
什么？
The Mongols are chasing you and you’re going to stop and build a palace?
蒙古人在追你，你要停下来建造一座宫殿吗？
So these are the remains of the Chinese?
那么这些都是中国人的遗骸吗？
Yes, the generals.
是的，将军们。
The generals.
将军们。
The army and the navy.
陆军和海军。
And there was a real competence issue.
还有一个真正的能力问题。
Yes.
是的。
Okay, so they’re going to build a palace.
好吧，所以他们要建造一座宫殿。
And we’re gonna protect it with a great wall of the sea.
我们将用海上长城来保护它。
Right.
正确的。
They chained together the boats across the entrance to the harbor, and they put the palace boat, so-called, in the middle.
他们把船拴在港口入口处，把所谓的宫船放在中间。
2:53:39 The generals didn’t trust their own soldiers enough, so they made all of them leave the island and go to the boats to fight the Mongols.
将军们对自己的士兵不够信任，于是让他们全部离开岛屿，上船与蒙古人作战。
So Mongols arrived, and over and over and over they asked them to surrender.
于是蒙古人到来了，他们一遍又一遍地要求他们投降。
You won’t be harmed, all this kind of stuff.
你不会受到所有这些事情的伤害。
But the Mongols now took over the land.
但蒙古人现在接管了这片土地。
So they had the water all around them and they had the land.
所以他们周围有水，也有土地。
And once the fighting started, they could just shoot down from the highland right onto the ships.
一旦战斗开始，他们就可以从高地直接击落船只。
And they’ve cut the ships off from the fresh supply of wood and water.
他们还切断了船只的新鲜木材和水供应。
So they can’t boil rice.
所以他们不能煮米饭。
They have to try to eat rice and drink sea water.
他们必须尝试吃米饭和喝海水。
They’re all sick as dogs out there.
他们都病得像狗一样。
And the leaders refused to surrender.
领导人拒绝投降。
2:54:33 The little boy is there, seven-year-old emperor, Bing was his name, with his pet parrot.
小男孩就在那里，七岁的皇帝，他的名字是“兵”，还有他的宠物鹦鹉。
That’s the only thing he had left in life, was his pet parrot.
这是他生命中唯一剩下的东西，就是他的宠物鹦鹉。
And then the Mongols, they offered every opportunity, but the prime minister, so-called, coward that he is, although he’s treated as a hero today in China and throughout their history, the coward that he was, he said, “We will not disgrace the country by letting them capture the emperor.”
然后蒙古人，他们提供了一切机会，但总理，所谓的，胆小鬼，尽管他今天在中国和整个历史上被视为英雄，他是胆小鬼，他说，“我们不会让他们俘虏皇帝来羞辱国家。”
2:55:06 So first he threw his own wife and children into the water to drown.
于是他先把自己的妻子和孩子扔进水里淹死。
And then he took the emperor and held him, he was seven years and one month, he had just turned seven years old, and jumped into the water with his child.
然后他把皇帝抱起来，他已经七岁零一个月了，刚刚满七岁，带着孩子跳进了水里。
A child murderer.
一个儿童杀人犯。
He’s a child murderer, to do that.
他是一个儿童凶手，才这么做。
Somehow in the whole ruckus, the cage came undone with the parrot and the parrot fell in the water too.
不知怎的，在整个骚动中，笼子和鹦鹉一起被解开了，鹦鹉也掉进了水里。
So the seven-year-old boy and the parrot died in the water.
于是，七岁的男孩和鹦鹉就死在了水里。
That was the end of one of the greatest dynasties in the history of the world.
那是世界历史上最伟大王朝之一的结束。
The Song Dynasty, they were intellectually great.
宋朝，他们的智力很高。
They were artistically great.
他们在艺术上是伟大的。
They were technologically great.
他们在技术上非常出色。
They were just one of the greatest moments of world history.
它们只是世界历史上最伟大的时刻之一。
And it ends with this coward killing a child and his pet parrot in order to save the honor that was betrayed by this woman.
最后，这个胆小鬼为了挽救被这个女人背叛的荣誉，杀死了一个孩子和他的宠物鹦鹉。
The men lost the war.
男人们输掉了战争。
The men lost the war.
男人们输掉了战争。
Who’s to blame?
谁该受责备？
An old one-eyed, ugly lady Empress Xie?
一个独眼丑老太太谢皇后？
Well, the bigger picture there is probably the institutions became corrupt and stale.
好吧，从更大的角度来看，这些机构可能变得腐败和陈旧。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
The army weakened and the politician class probably have lost their skill and competence at ruling and all that kind of stuff.
军队被削弱了，政治阶层可能已经失去了统治和诸如此类的技能和能力。
All that is true.
这一切都是真的。
2:56:31 And the Chinese summarize that with losing the mandate of heaven.
中国人总结说，失去了天命。
Right.
正确的。
2:56:35 I mean, everybody has their perspective, maybe.
我的意思是，也许每个人都有自己的观点。
The way you told the story has a very kind of objective sort of way of revealing the absurdity and the cowardice of it.
你讲故事的方式非常客观地揭示了故事的荒谬和懦弱。
But there’s probably the Chinese perspectives that they tell the story in some maintained honor to the last moment.
但他们可能从中国的角度讲述这个故事，直到最后一刻仍保持着荣誉。
Very often, most scholars depict Empress Xie as the traitor to the country.
很多时候，大多数学者将谢皇后描述为叛国者。
2:57:01 And I say, “No, that boy lived on for another 45 years.” And so she did not betray the country.
我说：“不，那个男孩又活了 45 年。”所以她没有背叛国家。
She protected her emperor that she was supposed to protect.
她保护了她应该保护的皇帝。
It was the man who killed the child emperor who killed Zhao Bing.
正是那个杀了童皇的人，杀了赵兵。
So what was the lasting impact of Kublai Khan unifying China?
那么忽必烈统一中国的持久影响是什么呢？
Well, yes, first of all, he had unified China in the largest sense of the word, with Korea, Tibet, Manchuria, Mongolia, part of Central Asia, he had unified it.
嗯，是的，首先，他在最大意义上统一了中国，朝鲜，西藏，满洲，蒙古，中亚的一部分，他统一了。
2:57:30 But he did so at the expense of his empire.
但他这样做是以牺牲他的帝国为代价的。
They didn’t recognize him as the great emperor, and there was great opposition from the Golden Horde of Russia, and also from the central region, which is called the Chagataid, the descendants of Chagatai, the second son, the Chagatai Empire, and then from the Il-Khanate of Persia.
他们不承认他是伟大的皇帝，遭到了俄罗斯金帐汗国的强烈反对，还有中部地区称为察合台的次子察合台的后裔察合台帝国，以及后来的波斯伊尔汗国的强烈反对。
These are the different sort of fracturings of the Mongol Empire?
这些是蒙古帝国的不同类型的分裂吗？
The sons of Genghis Khan.
成吉思汗的儿子。
Yeah.
是的。
And only the Il-Khanate was still loyal to him, but they’re so far away.
只有伊尔汗国仍然忠于他，但他们距离太远了。
Yeah.
是的。
But now he has a navy.
但现在他拥有了一支海军。
But this is, I mean, even the four pieces, the whole thing is gigantic, and even the pieces are gigantic.
但我的意思是，即使是四块，整个东西也是巨大的，甚至碎片也是巨大的。
Yes.
是的。
So, I mean, it’s very hard it to keep an empire of this size together.
所以，我的意思是，要维持如此规模的帝国是非常困难的。
Yes.
是的。
2:58:27 But he had China.
但他有中国。
It was unified under him.
在他的领导下统一了。
And then he sent out the first expedition to sail directly to Persia.
然后他派出第一支远征队直接航行到波斯。
There had been trade all throughout thousands of years, but it was usually port to port, different merchants trading goods.
数千年来一直存在贸易，但通常是港口到港口，不同的商人交易货物。
No, he organized a great fleet to send a queen, or a princess to become a queen in the Il-Khanate, to marry the Il-Khan of Persia.
不，他组织了一支庞大的舰队，派遣一位女王，或者一位公主成为伊尔汗国的女王，嫁给波斯的伊尔汗。
It’s Persia and Azerbaijan and Armenia and Iraq and part of Syria, all of that area.
这是波斯、阿塞拜疆、亚美尼亚、伊拉克以及叙利亚的一部分，所有这些地区。
So he organized this, and it so happened that Marco Polo was ready to go home because they knew Kublai Khan was about to die.
于是他组织了这次活动，碰巧马可波罗准备回家，因为他们知道忽必烈即将去世。
And in fact, he only had about one year left to live.
事实上，他的生命只剩下一年左右了。
And they wanted to get their riches out before they didn’t know what’s gonna happen.
他们想在不知道会发生什么之前将自己的财富拿走。
This is a new dynasty.
这是一个新的王朝。
They’ve been in total control of China for one generation, and they didn’t know what was gonna happen.
他们已经完全控制了中国一代人，他们不知道会发生什么。
2:59:27 And also, just before that, there’d been a bad sign because Kublai Khan had tried to invade Japan a second time, and he had failed a second time.
而且，就在这之前，出现了一个不好的征兆，因为忽必烈曾试图第二次入侵日本，但第二次失败了。
And the second time, I think again, he had a practical purpose, and that was he had this whole huge Song army that now he’s the new enlightened Mongol who doesn’t slaughter.
第二次，我再次想，他有一个实际目的，那就是他拥有这支庞大的宋军，现在他是新开明的不屠杀的蒙古人。
What is he gonna do?
他要做什么？
They’re not reliable.
他们不可靠。
They’re not safe.
他们不安全。
So he sends a bunch of them up into the Amur River of what’s now the Russian Far East, or we call Siberia in English, but the Russian Far East, the Amur River.
所以他把一群人送到了现在的俄罗斯远东地区的阿穆尔河，或者我们英语中称西伯利亚，但俄罗斯远东地区，阿穆尔河。
He sent expeditions up into Tibet, exploring options up there, but there wasn’t enough room, or enough agricultural area for a huge military colony.
他派遣探险队前往西藏，探索那里的选择，但那里没有足够的空间或足够的农业面积来建立一个巨大的军事殖民地。
3:00:12 But most of his ships were loaded with former prisoners of the war from the Song Dynasty.
但他的大部分船只都装载着前宋朝战俘。
And they were not armed.
而且他们没有武装。
They had hoes and implements for farming.
他们有锄头和农具。
He wanted to create, obviously, a military agricultural farm in Japan to help feed Northern China, ’cause it was very important.
显然，他想在日本建立一个军事农业农场来帮助养活中国北方，因为这非常重要。
Just as they were doing with the Amur River, but it was more complicated.
就像他们对阿穆尔河所做的那样，但情况要复杂得多。
So, again, they lost.
于是，他们又输了。
They didn’t have it.
他们没有。
And part of the reason is the expedition was massive, and they organized it in the Mongol principles of left wing, right wing.
部分原因是这次远征规模庞大，而且他们按照蒙古的左翼、右翼原则组织这次远征。
This didn’t work at sea ’cause the left wing is from Korea.
这在海上不起作用，因为左翼来自韩国。
There’s Korean ships built up there.
那里建有韩国船只。
The right wing is from Southern China, mostly, with ships built down there.
右翼主要来自中国南方，船只在那里建造。
They’re not the same.
它们不一样。
They have a head, but there’s no center point.
他们有头，但没有中心点。
Genghis Khan always had the gol, they called it, G-O-L, the gol, the center, or Q-O-L, qol [inaudible 03:01:14].
成吉思汗总是拥有 gol，他们称之为 G-O-L、gol、中心，或 Q-O-L、qol [听不清 03:01:14]。
But he had the center in command.
但他掌握着中锋的指挥权。
No, he sent the two without a clear…
不，他在没有明确的情况下就派了两人……
And they were arguing with each other, not cooperating, not helping each other, sabotaging each other.
他们互相争论，不合作，不互相帮助，互相破坏。
3:01:25 They get there, and once again, they have the same problems.
他们到达那里，却再次遇到同样的问题。
Even though they’ve come with lots of grenades this time, again, the grenades are exploding.
尽管这次他们带了很多手榴弹，但手榴弹还是爆炸了。
They’re scaring the horses.
他们在吓唬马。
It’s impressive.
令人印象深刻。
And a lot of silk screens are made later showing these impressive battles and all.
后来制作了很多丝网印刷来展示这些令人印象深刻的战斗等等。
But they lost.
但他们输了。
And again, a typhoon happened to be the final destruction of the navy.
再次，一场台风恰巧成为海军的最终毁灭。
But I think Japan had defeated the Mongols.
但我认为日本打败了蒙古人。
I would say.
我会说。
Japanese deserve credit for that victory.
日本人的胜利值得赞扬。
And then the sinking of the ships was more caused by the typhoon.
然后船只的沉没更多是台风造成的。
But already the Japanese had developed good strategies while the Mongols had been away.
但当蒙古人离开时，日本人已经制定了良好的战略。
They knew how the Mongols fought, and they knew that at night they could fire flaming arrows at the ships, set them on fire, and they were doing great damage.
他们知道蒙古人是如何作战的，他们知道在夜间他们可以向船只发射燃烧的箭，使它们着火，并且造成巨大的破坏。
So again, Kublai Khan lost the invasion of Japan, but the soldiers were gone.
如此一来，忽必烈入侵日本又失败了，但士兵却没了。
They drowned.
他们淹死了。
He didn’t kill them off, was his deliberate plan, but the problem was solved.
他没有杀掉他们，这是他刻意的计划，但问题已经解决了。
3:02:40 It’s one of those ironies of history that is hard to quite understand.
这是历史上难以完全理解的讽刺之一。
So this had happened, but then Kublai Khan was coming to near the end of life, and Marco Polo and those wanted to get out, they’re ready to go.
事情就这样发生了，但忽必烈汗已接近生命的尽头，而马可波罗和那些想要出去的人，他们已经准备好了。
And Kublai Khan allowed them to sail on this expedition with Kokochin, was her name, the Princess Kokochin, to go to Hormuz.
忽必烈允许他们与科科钦（她的名字是科科钦公主）一起航行，前往霍尔木兹。
And so they went, and that began a whole system of trade, back and forth, back and forth.
他们就这样走了，开始了一个完整的贸易体系，来来回回。
Kublai Khan died soon after that.
此后不久，忽必烈就去世了。
His grandson, who’s not so well respected in history, because he’s often called a drunk, but his name was Temur, Temur Oljeitu.
他的孙子，在历史上并没有那么受人尊敬，因为他经常被称为酒鬼，但他的名字叫铁木尔，铁木尔·奥杰图。
But he was a drunk when he was young, but his grandfather had him caned a couple times in public, and he cured him of drinking.
但他年轻时是个酒鬼，但他的祖父在公共场合打了他几次，把他治好了。
And actually he was not a drunk later on.
事实上他后来也没有喝醉。
3:03:38 And first he reassembled the Mongol Empire.
首先他重建了蒙古帝国。
He did.
他做到了。
The Golden Horde declared loyalty to him, recognized him as Great Khan, as emperor of the whole empire, the Chagataid of Central Asia, they declared loyalty to him.
金帐汗国向他宣誓效忠，承认他为大汗，为整个帝国的皇帝，中亚的察合台也宣誓效忠他。
The Il-Khanate was already loyal to him.
伊尔汗国已经效忠于他。
They all declared loyalty.
他们都宣布效忠。
He had reassembled the empire and he had the greatest navy in the world, and he sent out envoys to every place they had attacked or traded with to say, “That era is over.
他重新组建了帝国，拥有世界上最强大的海军，他向每一个他们攻击过或与之进行过贸易的地方派出使节，宣告：“那个时代已经结束了。
We’re no longer attacking anybody.
我们不再攻击任何人。
We’re changing from conquest to commerce.
我们正在从征服转向商业。
We want to trade with you.
我们想与您进行贸易。
Come to China, bring your goods.
来中国吧，带上你的货物。
We’re gonna trade with you.” He instituted, it was short, unfortunately didn’t last forever.
我们要和你做交易。”他创立了这个制度，时间很短，不幸的是并没有永远持续下去。
I wish it could have.
我希望它可以。
But it was a great era of the exchange of all kinds of things going back and forth, actually all the way to Africa, ’cause from Hormuz they had connection to Somaliland.
但这是一个各种东西来回交换的伟大时代，实际上一直到非洲，因为从霍尔木兹他们与索马里兰有联系。
And some people say Kenya already at that time, I’m not sure, but very wide.
有人说肯尼亚已经在那个时候了，我不确定，但范围很广。
Very wide.
很宽。
So technically he ruled over the largest size the Mongol Empire ever had?
那么从技术上来说，他统治着有史以来面积最大的蒙古帝国？
Yes.
是的。
3:04:53 But although, actually, the Golden Horde of Russia, they were quite independent by now.
但尽管实际上是俄罗斯金帐汗国，但他们现在已经相当独立了。
And he let them be independent, but they were loyal to him and they were still exchanging back and forth all kinds of things.
而且他让他们独立，但他们却忠于他，还在来回交换着各种东西。
So there were Ossetian soldiers in China.
所以中国有奥塞梯士兵。
They had a whole contingent of Ossetian soldiers there, and from Russia, from the Caucus areas of Russia.
他们在那里有一整支奥塞梯士兵，来自俄罗斯，来自俄罗斯的核心地区。
And how do they communicate?
他们如何沟通？
3:05:19 Are they using the postal service?
他们使用邮政服务吗？
You have to literally deliver the letters?
你必须逐字逐句地送信吗？
Over time, those groups started intermarrying, they were allowed to intermarry.
随着时间的推移，这些群体开始通婚，他们被允许通婚。
3:05:26 The Chinese were not, but they were intermarrying with Mongols, and they were switching to Mongolian language, slowly.
中国人不是，但他们正在与蒙古人通婚，并且他们正在慢慢地转向蒙古语。
At first, I don’t know, it’s not clear.
起初，我不知道，不清楚。
But again, Kublai Khan thinking in this internationalist way, said, “Okay, we need a new alphabet for the world.” Everybody in the world writes with one alphabet, Chinese, Mongolian, Russian, Arabic, everything.
但忽必烈汗以这种国际主义的方式思考，再次说道：“好吧，我们需要为世界提供一个新的字母表。”世界上每个人都用一种字母书写，中文、蒙古文、俄文、阿拉伯文，等等。
It didn’t work.
它不起作用。
But he tried it for a while and some inscriptions are still there to this day.
但他尝试了一段时间，一些铭文至今仍然存在。
And we should maybe briefly mentioned Marco Polo that you’ve talked about.
我们也许应该简单地提到一下你谈到的马可波罗。
3:06:03 So he’s this now famous explorer that traversed the continent, the Silk Road, and then stayed with Kublai Khan for a while.
所以他就是这位现在著名的探险家，穿越了大陆、丝绸之路，然后在忽必烈汗身边呆了一段时间。
And I guess is one of the primary documenters of everything that’s been going on.
我想他是所发生的一切的主要记录者之一。
Is there something else interesting to say about Marco Polo and about his interaction with Kublai Khan?
关于马可波罗以及他与忽必烈的互动，还有什么有趣的事情要说吗？
I like Marco Polo.
我喜欢马可波罗。
3:06:32 I use his work a lot.
我经常使用他的作品。
I find him very reliable.
我觉得他非常可靠。
In the areas where he’s not reliable you can kind of tell because he wasn’t there.
在他不可靠的地方你可以看出，因为他不在那儿。
But the places he was, he reported a lot of stuff.
但他所在的地方，他报告了很多东西。
And so I’m very much indebted to him for a lot of things because with something like the Princess Kokochin, and also another fighting princess from Central Asia named Khutulun, he wrote about that.
所以我在很多事情上都非常感谢他，因为他写了像科科钦公主，还有另一位来自中亚的名叫库图伦的战斗公主。
But I also needed other sources.
但我还需要其他来源。
So I found if I could find Chinese sources or Arab sources or something else, or Persian to support it, then I really felt a lot of confidence with him over time.
所以我发现，如果我能找到中国的资料来源、阿拉伯的资料来源或其他资料，或者波斯资料来支持它，那么随着时间的推移，我真的对他充满了信心。
But pieces were romanticized.
但作品被浪漫化了。
You have to always discount it, but he’s very good.
你必须总是低估它，但他非常好。
3:07:20 However, I believe the best work written about Marco Polo, aside from his own book, which was actually written by Rustichello, dictated in prison in Genoa.
然而，我相信关于马可·波罗的最好的作品，除了他自己的书，这本书实际上是由鲁斯蒂切罗写的，在热那亚的监狱里口述的。
In the 20th century, Eugene O’Neill wrote a play that became a comedy on Broadway called Marco Millions.
20 世纪，尤金·奥尼尔 (Eugene O’Neill) 创作了一部戏剧《马可百万》(Marco Millions)，后来成为百老汇的喜剧。
That was both a play on what he was called, Il Milione, the million, ’cause he had talked about cities of millions of people, and about money in the millions and things that people in Europe just couldn’t believe could happen.
这既是对他所谓的“Il Milione”，即“百万”的玩笑，因为他谈到了拥有数百万人的城市，也谈到了数以百万计的金钱以及欧洲人简直不敢相信会发生的事情。
3:07:58 He then published his whole play as a book to show people what he really meant.
然后他将整个剧本出版成书，向人们展示他的真正含义。
And it was an ironic look at capitalism, ’cause this is 20th century already, versus the idea of like a philosopher king, which he saw in Kublai Khan.
这是对资本主义的讽刺，因为这已经是 20 世纪了，这与他在忽必烈身上看到的“哲学家国王”的理念相对照。
And so Marco Polo becomes a symbol of capitalism, not at its worst, but at its most basic.
因此，马可·波罗成为资本主义的象征，不是最糟糕的，而是最基本的。
And that is like the princess in this story.
这就像这个故事中的公主。
This is not in real life, but this is in the play written by Eugene O’Neill, but I think it captures a lot.
这不是在现实生活中，而是在尤金·奥尼尔写的戏剧中，但我认为它捕捉到了很多东西。
The Princess Kukachin says, “Marco is an excellent judge of quantity,” and there are things like that.
库卡钦公主说：“马可在数量方面有着出色的判断力”，类似的事情也有。
3:08:45 And then in the play, Bayan, the great general, he talks with Kublai Khan and he said, “Look, these people are dangerous from the West.
然后在剧中，伟大的将军巴颜与忽必烈交谈，他说：“看，这些人来自西方，很危险。
We should go conquer them now while we can.” Kublai Khan tells Bayan, again in the play, this is fiction, but he tells Bayan, “They are not worth conquering, and if we conquer them, we will become like them.” And he said, “Marco Polo has been in our land.
我们应该趁现在还可以的时候去征服他们。”忽必烈在剧中再次告诉巴彦，这是虚构的，但他告诉巴彦，“他们不值得征服，如果我们征服了他们，我们就会变得像他们一样。”他说：“马可·波罗曾在我们的土地上生活过。
He has seen everything.
他已经看到了一切。
He has learned nothing.
他什么也没学到。
He has seen everything.
他已经看到了一切。
He understands nothing.”
他什么都不懂。”
3:09:21 For me, this was such an important moment in the history of the world, symbolically.
对我来说，这是世界历史上一个具有象征意义的重要时刻。
With Marco Polo and Kublai Khan, the coming together of two worlds, it could have gone a different way, it could have gone a different way.
随着马可波罗和忽必烈，两个世界的结合，事情本来可以走不同的路，本来可以走不同的路。
It’s not that I’m anticapitalist, I’m procapitalist, but the way so many things worked out, it was a misstep in history.
这并不是说我是反资本主义的，我是支持资本主义的，但从很多事情的发展来看，这是历史上的一个失误。
Maybe we took the wrong step at that moment, and we could have learned more from cooperation.
也许我们当时迈出了错误的一步，我们本可以从合作中学到更多。
They didn’t quite integrate successfully.
他们并没有完全成功地整合。
No.
不。
3:09:57 But today we’ve returned to that, I think.
但我想今天我们又回到了这一点。
The East and the West are confronting each other again on more equal terms.
东方和西方再次以更加平等的方式对抗。
For a long time, the West was so dominant and the East was so downtrodden by colonialism and other things, and internal rot and other things.
长期以来，西方占据主导地位，而东方则被殖民主义和其他事物以及内部腐烂和其他事物所蹂躏。
But today there’s, not necessarily equality, but there’s more of a balance, and which way will we go?
但今天不一定是平等，而是更多的平衡，我们该走哪条路呢？
And again, there’s a lot of room and a lot of energy for division, for misunderstanding versus integration.
再说一次，有很大的空间和能量来分裂、误解和整合。
3:10:25 Like the East is demonized in the West.
就像东方在西方被妖魔化一样。
And one of the great regrets I have that I hope to alleviate is just how little I understand China and the East.
我希望能够减轻的最大遗憾之一就是我对中国和东方的了解太少。
Yes.
是的。
It’s just sort of not just from economics, politics, reading a few books, but the way you’ve understood and felt the Mongolian steppe, like understand the Chinese people in that way, because it does feel like from that understanding there could be integration of ideas.
这不仅仅是来自经济、政治、读几本书，而是你理解和感受蒙古草原的方式，就像以这种方式理解中国人一样，因为确实感觉从这种理解中可以实现思想的融合。
My work is often classified as Chinese history, which I think is ironic ’cause for me it’s always a Mongolian history.
我的作品经常被归类为中国历史，我认为这很讽刺，因为对我来说它始终是蒙古历史。
3:11:17 But for the last book I wrote, which dealt a lot more with China because it was about Kublai Khan, then in that book, I deliberately did not go to China.
但是对于我写的上一本书，它更多地涉及中国，因为它是关于忽必烈的，然后在那本书中，我故意没有去中国。
I’d been there numerous times before.
我以前去过那里很多次。
I deliberately did not.
我故意没有。
I’m an outsider.
我是一个局外人。
I do not speak Chinese.
我不会说中文。
I’m not a Chinese scholar.
我不是中国学者。
I never even had a course in Chinese art or calligraphy or anything.
我什至从未上过中国艺术或书法之类的课程。
And I wanted to be very clear.
我想说得非常清楚。
Mine is an outside perspective.
我的观点是外部视角。
But I think it’s possible as an outsider to still have respect for that culture, even if I disagree that they point this one as a hero and that one just the villain.
但我认为，作为一个局外人，仍然有可能尊重这种文化，即使我不同意他们认为这个人是英雄，那个人只是恶棍。
I disagree and they’ll say, oh, I’m wrong.
我不同意，他们会说，哦，我错了。
I don’t understand their history.
我不明白他们的历史。
And they’re probably right.
他们可能是对的。
That’s quite possible.
这很有可能。
But this is an outside view that is different and tries to be respectful of what happens in that part of the world.
但这是一种不同的外部观点，并试图尊重世界那个地区发生的事情。
3:12:16 Just as I’m respectful towards Genghis Khan and the Mongol Empire, I respect China very much.
正如我尊重成吉思汗和蒙古帝国一样，我也非常尊重中国。
I’m an American.
我是美国人。
I love the ideals of my country.
我热爱我的国家的理想。
I love so many aspects of our culture, and there are many aspects I don’t, of course, because it’s impossible to love everything, even about the members of your own family, you know?
我热爱我们文化的很多方面，当然，也有很多方面我不喜欢，因为不可能爱一切，即使是你自己家庭的成员，你知道吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And I do hope that through understanding one another, or just making the effort to understand, even if we understand wrongly and we’re incorrect in it, just to make the effort to understand will help us a lot.
我确实希望通过相互理解，或者只是努力去理解，即使我们理解错误，我们的理解是错误的，只是努力去理解会对我们有很大帮助。
3:12:38 And the West has had a long couple of centuries of extreme arrogance that they are there to teach the world.
几个世纪以来，西方一直保持着极端傲慢，认为他们是来教导世界的。
And I am sometimes dismayed.
我有时会感到沮丧。
I meet these young people all over the world who’ve come to help.
我遇到了世界各地前来提供帮助的年轻人。
They’re an NGO, and they’re gonna teach the people how to take care of the environment.
他们是一个非政府组织，他们会教人们如何保护环境。
They’re gonna teach the women how to exercise their rights.
他们将教妇女如何行使自己的权利。
They’re gonna bring in micro financing to help liberate people.
他们将引入小额融资来帮助解放人们。
We are arrogant beyond words, and we need to be a little bit more humble and try to put ourselves on an equal basis with some of these people, not a superior basis.
我们傲慢得无以言表，我们需要谦虚一点，努力把自己和这些人放在平等的基础上，而不是高人一等的基础上。
Beautifully put.
摆得很漂亮。
3:13:41 How did the Mongol Empire come to an end?
蒙古帝国是怎么灭亡的？
How did it fall?
怎么掉下来的？
Despite the fact that Temur Oljeitu Khan had United the Empire, at least symbolically, all of it, and they had the trade going on, the Mongols never adapted well to China, and they began having problems in different areas.
尽管铁木尔·奥杰图汗（至少是象征性的）统一了整个帝国，并且他们进行了贸易，但蒙古人从来没有很好地适应中国，他们开始在不同领域遇到问题。
3:13:51 So in some areas of the world, they became more like the local people.
因此，在世界某些地区，他们变得更像当地人。
So in Central Asia, they became Muslim and they got more absorbed into that world and broke away from the Mongol examples from before.
因此，在中亚，他们成为了穆斯林，并且更加融入了那个世界，并脱离了以前的蒙古人的榜样。
Russia lingered on longer under Mongol domination, but it got weaker and weaker over time, and it was based around the Volga River, but they weakened to the point that they just became a tributary people minority within a Russian empire.
俄罗斯在蒙古的统治下苟延残喘，但随着时间的推移，它变得越来越弱，它以伏尔加河为基础，但他们已经弱化到只是成为俄罗斯帝国内的朝贡少数民族。
But the Mongols had left the framework for empire for Russia.
但蒙古人已经把帝国的框架留给了俄罗斯。
That’s something the Russians don’t wanna hear any more than they wanna hear me criticize the end of the Song Dynasty.
这是俄罗斯人不想听到的，就像他们不想听到我批评宋朝的灭亡一样。
3:14:49 But it is true that even Yam.
但确实如此，即使是山药。
Yam is the word that was used for this postal system.
山药是这个邮政系统使用的词。
And that’s the ministries today in Russia.
这就是今天俄罗斯的部委。
There are many, many other things in Russia.
俄罗斯还有很多很多其他的事情。
Even Malchin.
甚至马尔钦。
Malchin is a herder, mal is an animal, and chin is a person who takes care of animals.
Malchin 是牧民，mal 是动物，chin 是照顾动物的人。
It’s all kinds of influences in Russia that some people want to deny.
有些人想要否认的是俄罗斯的各种影响。
But there’s always a great powerful strand of research and scholarship in Russia that supports this understanding of the Mongols.
但俄罗斯总有大量强大的研究和学术支持对蒙古人的这种理解。
And I depend on them tremendously.
我非常依赖他们。
3:15:26 It’s not just Gumilev is one of the famous ones, but he was a little bit too romantic with his ideas and all.
古米廖夫不仅是著名的人物之一，而且他的想法和其他一切都有点太浪漫了。
But I depend upon a lot of the research done by Russian scholars and by early German scholars in the 19th century under sponsorship of the Tsar.
但我依赖于俄罗斯学者和 19 世纪早期德国学者在沙皇的赞助下所做的大量研究。
So I depend on that work.
所以我依赖那项工作。
So you had a great influence there, but it was weakening.
所以你在那里有很大的影响力，但它正在减弱。
So bit by bit, 1368, the Mongols had become so weak within China that they were overthrown, but they weren’t absorbed into China.
就这样，1368年，蒙古人在中国境内变得如此弱小，以至于被推翻，但他们并没有被中国吸收。
The Mongols had been there since 1215 to 1368.
蒙古人从 1215 年到 1368 年就一直居住在那里。
They packed up, went back to Mongolia.
他们收拾行装，返回蒙古。
It was just another seasonal migration.
这只是另一次季节性迁徙。
Yeah.
是的。
You know?
你知道？
3:16:16 It was just amazing.
真是太棒了。
And they said, “Okay, we’re still the Yuan Dynasty.
他们说：“好吧，我们还是元朝。
We’re not giving you the seals.
我们不会给你印章。
We’re not acknowledging the Ming.” And they never did, throughout the whole of the Ming.
我们不承认明朝。”在整个明朝，他们从未这样做过。
In fact, they went down one time and captured the Ming Emperor, took him back to Mongolia, and then they tried to ransom him, and the attorney said, “No, we’re gonna appoint another emperor.” So the Mongols decided, “Okay, the worst thing we can do to the Chinese is give them back the old Emperor.” So you had two emperors back.
事实上，他们有一次下去俘虏了明朝皇帝，把他带回蒙古，然后他们试图赎回他，律师说：“不，我们要任命另一位皇帝。”因此蒙古人决定，“好吧，我们能对中国人做的最糟糕的事情就是把老皇帝还给他们。”所以你又回来了两位皇帝。
Okay, let them work it out.
好吧，让他们解决吧。
And the empire just weakened from internal reasons for the Mongols, but some external things from nature.
而蒙古人帝国的衰弱只是出于内部原因，但也有一些外部原因。
And I think that was the great plague.
我认为那是一场大瘟疫。
3:16:59 Everything in history, everything that’s good comes with something underneath it that’s bad.
历史上的一切，一切美好的事物背后都有一些不好的东西。
And everything that’s bad seems to have something underneath that sometimes works out good, in a way.
从某种意义上说，所有坏事的背后似乎都有一些有时会带来好处的东西。
But this great system that united, it’s called the Yam or Ortogh, that had united everything, people could move back and forth quickly that it could also take the plague out of Southern China into all parts of the world.
但是这个伟大的统一系统，它被称为Yam或Ortogh，它统一了一切，人们可以快速地来回移动，它也可以将瘟疫从中国南方带到世界各地。
And I do think that’s what happened.
我确实认为这就是发生的事情。
And the plague destroyed the Mongol system.
瘟疫摧毁了蒙古体系。
3:17:33 And if all of these people are ruled by Mongols because they’re benefiting so much from this system, and now the system collapses, you don’t need the empire anymore.
如果所有这些人都被蒙古人统治，因为他们从这个体系中受益匪浅，而现在这个体系崩溃了，你就不再需要帝国了。
So it just fell apart.
所以它就崩溃了。
After 1368, the empire just fell apart, and most of them stayed in Persia and Iran and Afghanistan.
1368年以后，帝国就分崩离析了，大部分留在了波斯、伊朗和阿富汗。
The Hazara people are still descended from the army there.
哈扎拉人仍然是那里军队的后裔。
And then in Russia, some of them stayed.
然后他们中的一些人留在了俄罗斯。
But then finally in the time of Catherine the Great, a lot of them were returned.
但最后在叶卡捷琳娜大帝时代，很多人都被归还了。
They had been there for hundreds of years, and then they returned to Mongolia in the 1700s.
他们在那里已经存在了数百年，然后在 1700 年代返回蒙古。
And so, many Mongols came home.
因此，许多蒙古人回家了。
They were still Mongols.
他们仍然是蒙古人。
Despite hundreds of years of exposure to other cultures, they came back to their tent and squatting around the fire and drinking fermented milk and eating dried curds.
尽管接触了其他文化数百年，他们还是回到了帐篷，蹲在火边喝发酵牛奶，吃干凝乳。
It’s interesting that the Mongolian spirit is so strong that it persists through centuries, and they just return right back on the horse, riding in the open steppe.
有趣的是，蒙古人的精神是如此强大，以至于几个世纪以来一直存在，他们只是骑着马返回，在开阔的草原上骑行。
Yeah, well, it was actually very difficult because they were a little bit lazy and they weren’t so good with doing the task.
是的，嗯，这实际上非常困难，因为他们有点懒，而且他们不太擅长完成任务。
3:18:49 And so it became difficult, actually, to support so many people coming home and eating up all the animals.
因此，实际上，支持这么多人回家并吃掉所有动物变得很困难。
The Mongols in China had been used to just eating.
中国的蒙古人已经习惯了只吃东西。
They hadn’t been producing much for 150 years.
150 年来他们没有生产太多东西。
So just to return to Genghis Khan, and we talked about Dan Carlin, and Dan Carlin said that Genghis Khan’s army was the greatest military force in history.
回到成吉思汗，我们谈到了丹·卡林，丹·卡林说成吉思汗的军队是历史上最伟大的军事力量。
3:19:12 And many other historians agree that before rifles came into popular use, Genghis Khan would basically beat every single army, including Napoleon.
许多其他历史学家一致认为，在步枪普及之前，成吉思汗基本上击败了包括拿破仑在内的所有军队。
And you mentioned the Samurai, the whole formal setup, same with Napoleon.
你提到了武士，整个正式的设置，与拿破仑一样。
There’s a whole several hours to set up the chess pieces on the military board.
在军事棋盘上布置棋子需要整整几个小时。
I mean, you could just imagine what Genghis Khan and the dynamism, the speed of everything, what that would do to Napoleon.
我的意思是，你可以想象成吉思汗和一切事物的活力和速度，这会对拿破仑产生什么影响。
So, I guess the question is, do you agree with that notion that Genghis Khan’s army is the greatest military force in history?
所以，我想问题是，你是否同意成吉思汗的军队是历史上最伟大的军事力量这一观点？
Short answer is yes, absolutely.
简短的回答是肯定的。
3:20:10 No other power in the history of the world has conquered Russia and China and Persia and Central Asia and Turkey and Korea.
世界历史上没有任何其他国家征服过俄罗斯、中国、波斯、中亚、土耳其和朝鲜。
No power in the world has done that.
世界上还没有哪个国家做到过这一点。
Not Alexander, not the Romans.
不是亚历山大，不是罗马人。
Nobody will ever do it again.
没有人会再这样做。
Nobody’s going to conquer China and Russia again and rule both countries.
没有人会再次征服中国和俄罗斯并统治这两个国家。
It’s just not gonna happen.
这不会发生。
What lessons can you take from that’s applicable to modern warfare?
您可以从中吸取哪些适用于现代战争的经验教训？
Oh, I think there’s a very good lesson.
哦，我认为这是一个很好的教训。
3:20:47 The Mongols took Iraq.
蒙古人占领了伊拉克。
They took Baghdad, they held it.
他们占领了巴格达，他们守住了它。
The Americans, we followed the exact opposite strategy of the Mongols.
对于美国人来说，我们采取了与蒙古人完全相反的策略。
The Mongol strategy is first you take the countryside.
蒙古的战略是首先占领乡村。
They’re country people.
他们是乡下人。
They think in terms of countryside.
他们从乡村角度思考。
You take the countryside, you occupy the countryside, and you cut off the city.
你夺了乡村，你占领了乡村，你切断了城市。
It cannot live without the countryside.
没有乡村就无法生存。
And that’s how they did it every time.
他们每次都是这么做的。
They would come in, as I say, in some cases, two years in advance, to clear people out so they would have room for their horses and have pasture for their horses and all.
正如我所说，在某些情况下，他们会提前两年进来，清除人们，以便他们有空间容纳他们的马，并有牧场供他们的马和其他人使用。
And you take the small towns and then the small cities, and then the last one is the big city.
然后你先看小城镇，然后是小城市，最后一个是大城市。
Americans, they said, “No, we’re gonna take Baghdad.
美国人说：“不，我们要占领巴格达。
We’re gonna bomb Baghdad.
我们要轰炸巴格达。
We’re gonna have this shock and awe.
我们将会感到震惊和敬畏。
We’ll go in, we conquered a country from Baghdad.”
我们进去吧，我们从巴格达征服了一个国家。”
3:21:41 So they go in, they get trapped in their little tiny green zone.
所以他们进去了，他们被困在小小的绿色区域里。
They never conquer Iraq.
他们从未征服过伊拉克。
The strongest army in the world.
世界上最强大的军队。
This is something that worked in Europe, World War II.
这在欧洲、第二次世界大战中是行之有效的。
Yes, we bombed the cities and we took the city ’cause that was the center of production for the modern era.
是的，我们轰炸了城市并占领了城市，因为那是现代时代的生产中心。
But the countryside is the place that produces the food.
但农村是生产粮食的地方。
The Mongols were very aware of that, and supplies the water.
蒙古人非常清楚这一点，并提供了水。
You cut off the water from the city, you cut off the food for the city.
你切断了城市的水源，你切断了城市的食物。
What’s the city going to do?
这座城市要做什么？
They’re going to surrender.
他们要投降了。
The Americans were applying something that worked in Western Europe to conquer Germany.
美国人正在运用在西欧行之有效的方法来征服德国。
It did not work to conquer Iraq or Vietnam, or even Northern Korea or Cambodia or Laos or Syria or god know.
征服伊拉克或越南，甚至朝鲜、柬埔寨、老挝、叙利亚或上帝知道的，都不起作用。
It worked only in Grenada.
它只在格林纳达有效。
I think, in my lifetime, that’s the only successful war we had.
我认为，在我的一生中，这是我们唯一一次成功的战争。
Lasted a couple of hours.
持续了几个小时。
We went in, conquered the little tiny island.
我们进去了，征服了这个小岛。
Otherwise, we’ve been chased out of every country.
否则，我们就会被赶出各个国家。
We’ve lost it, tail between our legs.
我们已经失去了它，尾巴夹在我们的两腿之间。
3:22:46 We dropped more bombs on Cambodia than we dropped on Germany.
我们在柬埔寨投下的炸弹比在德国投下的还要多。
It’s hard to believe.
很难相信。
Hard to believe.
很难相信。
We dropped more bombs on Cambodia than on Germany.
我们在柬埔寨投下的炸弹比在德国投下的炸弹还要多。
We did nothing.
我们什么也没做。
Because Germany, you destroy the cities, the people surrender.
因为德国，你摧毁了城市，人民投降了。
Dresden’s gone, Frankfurt, [inaudible 03:23:07], Berlin.
德累斯顿、法兰克福、[听不清 03:23:07]、柏林都消失了。
In Cambodia, you can bomb the countryside forever.
在柬埔寨，你可以永远轰炸乡村。
You can kill the people, and they did.
你可以杀死人民，他们也做到了。
You can use chemical warfare, and they did.
你可以使用化学战，他们也这么做了。
And you could still go into the eastern part of Cambodia and you could go to large areas where you don’t hear birds singing because of their chemical warfare of American bombs.
你仍然可以去柬埔寨东部，你可以去那些因为美国炸弹的化学战而听不到鸟鸣声的大片地区。
So we still do it, but we don’t want to admit it, and we don’t want to go in to win.
所以我们还是这么做了，但我们不想承认，也不想进去赢。
In World War II, the Americans did have unconditional surrender.
二战中，美国人确实无条件投降。
Well, I mean, you can support the war, not support the war.
嗯，我的意思是，你可以支持战争，也可以不支持战争。
We did it right.
我们做对了。
We did it wrong.
我们做错了。
These are all issues that people can argue.
这些都是人们可以争论的问题。
But we had a clear policy.
但我们有明确的政策。
We go into Afghanistan, we’re fighting terror.
我们进入阿富汗，我们正在打击恐怖主义。
We’re gonna bring democracy, we’re gonna free the women.
我们要带来民主，我们要解放妇女。
What?
什么？
I mean, it’s absolute sheer insanity, the things that we did.
我的意思是，我们所做的事情绝对是疯狂的。
3:24:00 It’s absolute sheer insanity, the things that we did, and we kill people.
我们所做的事情，我们杀人，这绝对是疯狂的行为。
Not only did we use chemical warfare and kill a lot of people in Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia, we killed American soldiers.
我们不仅在越南、老挝和柬埔寨使用化学战杀死了很多人，我们还杀死了美国士兵。
We killed American soldiers, and my father was one.
我们杀害了美国士兵，我父亲就是其中之一。
He died from Agent Orange disease.
他死于橙剂病。
Oh, but that doesn’t count.
哦，但这不算。
He didn’t die on the battlefield and we didn’t mean to kill him.
他没有死在战场上，我们也无意杀他。
It doesn’t count.
这不算数。
Modern warfare is brutal and we just paper over it sometimes.
现代战争是残酷的，我们有时只是掩盖它。
Can you explain Agent Orange?
你能解释一下橙剂吗？
It was designed to kill all vegetation.
它的目的是杀死所有植被。
3:24:41 This is going to be a humane way.
这将是一种人道的方式。
We’re going to kill all the vegetation in the jungle, and that way they can stop moving the army through the jungle and they can stop the supplies from coming.
我们要杀死丛林中的所有植被，这样他们就可以阻止军队穿过丛林，也可以阻止补给的到来。
That was the American strategy.
这就是美国的战略。
Yeah.
是的。
Henry Kissinger, Nobel Prize winner, he is now resting in hell, is exactly where he belongs for what he did to Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia.
诺贝尔奖得主亨利·基辛格现在在地狱里安息，因为他对越南、老挝和柬埔寨所做的一切，正是他所属的地方。
The bombing was just absolutely horrendous.
爆炸绝对是可怕的。
So Agent Orange comes in, they defoliated, which means they wiped out the crops so people are starving.
所以橙剂进来了，他们落叶了，这意味着他们消灭了农作物，所以人们正在挨饿。
Literally in the case of Cambodia, starving to death.
就柬埔寨而言，实际上是饿死的。
The animals are being killed and deformed children are being born to this day, and American soldiers died by the thousands.
直到今天，动物被杀害，畸形儿童不断诞生，美国士兵成千上万死亡。
Not immediately.
不是立即。
Not on the battlefield, not right there.
不在战场上，也不在现场。
3:25:33 They go home, they have the disease, they linger.
他们回家了，他们得了病，他们徘徊不去。
They take the whole family down with them in an emotional trauma of becoming slowly paralyzed and dying.
他们让整个家庭都陷入了慢慢瘫痪和死亡的情感创伤中。
We did that to our own people.
我们对自己的人民也这么做了。
So yeah, warfare.
是的，战争。
I don’t think we’re any more humane with it any better today than in the past.
我认为我们今天的人道态度并不比过去更好。
It’s just we can hide parts of it more easily and deny it more easily.
只是我们可以更容易地隐藏它的一部分并更容易地否认它。
If you’re killed by a Mongol, it’s very clear you’re killed by a Mongol.
如果你被蒙古人杀了，那么很明显你被蒙古人杀了。
You’re killed by friendly fire in American war, it’s a different matter.
在美国战争中你被友军火力杀死，那是另一回事。
It seems that what people mean when they say that war is hell, that in some deep sense, everybody loses no matter the narrative you put on top of it.
似乎人们说战争是地狱时的意思是，从某种深刻的意义上来说，无论你如何叙述，每个人都会失败。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
3:26:22 I’m not a pacifist again, but I think war is acceptable in some situations, but the more controlled it is, the better.
我不再是和平主义者，但我认为战争在某些情况下是可以接受的，但越有控制越好。
My effort is not to do away with all the things that happened under Chinggis Khan with the brutality and all like that, but it’s to measure it against what goes on today in the world today.
我的努力并不是要消除成吉思汗统治下发生的所有残暴之类的事情，而是要根据当今世界发生的事情来衡量它。
And we have different images.
我们有不同的图像。
There are two images of Chinggis Khan.
成吉思汗的画像有两幅。
One is our image.
一是我们的形象。
He’s a barbarian on a horseback killing people and raping women all the time.
他是一个骑在马背上的野蛮人，总是杀人、强奸妇女。
The other image is the Mongolian image.
另一幅图像是蒙古图像。
And when they finally built an official statue of him in this century, for the 800th anniversary of his founding of Mongolia, they had to think about how to present him to the world and to themselves, and they chose the Lincoln Memorial as the model.
当他们最终在本世纪为他建立蒙古建国800周年的官方雕像时，他们不得不考虑如何向世界和自己展示他，他们选择了林肯纪念堂作为模型。
3:27:20 He was the late great law giver of the Mongol nation.
他是蒙古民族已故的伟大立法者。
And so he seated there in front of the Mongolian parliament.
于是他就坐在了蒙古议会前面。
There’s another statue that’s better known, but it was a private enterprise that created him on horseback, but not with a weapon.
还有另一个雕像更为人所知，但这是一家私营企业在马背上创造了他，但没有使用武器。
But he’s on horseback out in the countryside.
但他在乡村骑马。
But the official one from the government is Chinggis Khan seated like Abraham Lincoln, and they issued stamps to show that he is the great law giver.
但政府的官方官员是成吉思汗，他的座位像亚伯拉罕·林肯一样，他们发行邮票以表明他是伟大的立法者。
And the truth is somewhere in between, I suppose.
我想事实是介于两者之间。
Well, or depending on where you are and how you want to see it.
好吧，或者取决于你在哪里以及你想如何看到它。
Yeah.
是的。
There are many things that happened that were terrible and horrible, and for people who lose a war, it’s going to always be terrible and horrible.
发生了很多可怕的事情，对于输掉战争的人来说，这将永远是可怕的。
Yeah.
是的。
3:28:08 Let’s return back to Chinggis Khan’s life and the end of it.
让我们回到成吉思汗的一生及其结局。
How and where did he die?
他是怎么死的、在哪里死的？
After conquering the Khwarazmian Empire in Central Asia, Chinggis Khan returned and then they had a great, what they called Naadam, a great celebration that went on for a whole summer just about, and they had so much wealth to distribute to everybody, and everybody is being given all kinds of things for what they have done and including the people who helped saved him when he was in the cank in the ox yoke.
征服中亚的花剌子模帝国后，成吉思汗回来了，然后他们举行了一场盛大的、他们称之为那达慕的盛大庆典，这场盛大的庆典持续了整整一个夏天，他们有那么多的财富可以分配给每个人，每个人都因为他们所做的事情而得到各种各样的东西，包括那些在他在牛轭上时帮助拯救他的人。
3:28:19 They were rewarded with…
他们获得了奖励……
Everybody was rewarded.
每个人都得到了回报。
It was a great time.
那是一段美好的时光。
But the first place he had attacked outside was the Tangut Nation, and they had sworn allegiance to him.
但他在外面首先进攻的地方是西夏国，而西夏国已经宣誓效忠他。
And then when he went off to the Middle East, they refused to send troops.
然后当他前往中东时，他们拒绝派遣军队。
He didn’t forget that.
他没有忘记这一点。
He’s going back to the Tangut Nation and he’s going to conquer them again.
他要回到西夏民族，他要再次征服他们。
As he was crossing the Gobi, which takes a while and you’re crossing the Gobi, he was distracted a little bit by hunting the khulan, which is the wild…
当他穿越戈壁时，这需要一段时间，而你正在穿越戈壁，他因狩猎库兰而分心，这是野生的……
We say the wild ass, or I used to say wild horse.
我们说野驴，或者我过去常说野马。
It sounds a little better, but the khulan to say khulan of the Gobi, he was off hunting khulan.
听起来好一点，但是呼兰要说戈壁的呼兰，他是去狩猎呼兰的。
3:29:26 He fell from his horse and he injured his leg very badly, and he seemed to decline from that point, and it took some number of months before August of 1227.
他从马上摔下来，腿受了重伤，从那时起他似乎就开始衰落了，直到1227年8月才过了几个月。
He was very much near the end of life.
他已经接近生命的尽头了。
You can read online the exact date, and it’s all very specific.
您可以在线阅读确切的日期，而且都非常具体。
But the truth is we don’t know exactly which day he died in that time because one of his wives was running the camp and they were keeping it secret until the defeat of the Tangut was completed.
但事实是，我们不知道他当时具体是哪一天去世的，因为他的一位妻子正在管理这个营地，他们一直保守这个秘密，直到西夏人被彻底击败。
And the Tangut offered all kinds of things for the Mongols to go away again the second time.
而西夏人则为蒙古人第二次再次走开提供了各种东西。
And Chinggis Khan told his family, “No, accept nothing.
成吉思汗告诉他的家人：“不，什么都不接受。
And then when they surrender, you kill the royal family, kill them all.” So that the idea, they were Buddhist people, the Tanguts were Buddhists, and the idea was usually you can be reborn into your own family.
然后当他们投降时，你就杀掉王室成员，杀掉他们所有人。”因此，他们是佛教徒，西夏人是佛教徒，这个想法通常是你可以投生到自己的家庭中。
But he said, “No, you kill off the whole family, so they can’t be reborn.” So he died there.
但他说：“不，你杀了全家，所以他们不能重生。”于是他死在那里。
How was the successor chosen?
继任者是如何选定的？
Oh, the succession issue was always difficult.
哦，继承问题总是很棘手。
3:30:38 He did not have the right to appoint a successor.
他无权指定继任者。
That was not the Mongol way.
那不是蒙古人的方式。
He could nominate somebody.
他可以提名某人。
So before he set off for the Middle Eastern campaign, one of his wives said to him, “Even the biggest tree falls.
因此，在他出发前往中东作战之前，他的一位妻子对他说：“即使是最大的树也会倒下。
You’ve got to make a plan and talk to your sons about the future.” So he did.
你必须制定计划并与你的儿子们讨论未来。”所以他做到了。
He called the sons together.
他把儿子们叫到一起。
So this is Jochi, the oldest boy who was born while the father was allied with his anda Jamukha, and he was named Visitor, Jochi.
这就是术赤，他的父亲与他的安达札木合结盟时出生的最大的男孩，他被命名为访客术赤。
And then the next one was Chagatai, and the next one was Ogedei.
再下一位是察合台，再一位是窝阔台。
3:31:27 And the next one was Tolui, the father of Kublai Khan.
下一位就是忽必烈的父亲拖雷。
But he was still alive at this point.
但此时他还活着。
So all four of them came.
于是四个人都来了。
So Chinggis Khan explained to them he wanted to talk about the succession and to get some consensus from them about the succession.
于是成吉思汗向他们解释说，他想谈谈继承问题，并就继承问题征求他们的共识。
And so he said…
所以他说……
The Mongols always call on people to speak by order of age.
蒙古人总是要求人们按年龄顺序发言。
They also serve tea or food, anything by order of age.
他们还提供茶或食物，按年龄顺序提供任何东西。
It’s always done that way from then until now.
从那时到现在一直都是这样。
So he called first on Jochi.
于是他先去拜访术赤。
And he said, “What do you say, Jochi?” Chinggis Khan favored Jochi.
他说：“术赤，你说呢？”成吉思汗很宠术赤。
This is the one who was questionable paternity, but he always favored him.
这是一个被质疑亲子关系的人，但他却一直偏爱他。
The youngest Tolui was too hotheaded.
老三拖雷也太急躁了。
Ogedei was a heavy drinker.
窝阔台是个酗酒者。
Chagatai was very rigid about the law of the Mongols and all, but he seemed to favor Jochi as a good warrior but reasonable person.
察合台对蒙古人的法律非常严格，但他似乎很喜欢术赤，认为他是一个优秀的战士，但也是一个通情达理的人。
3:32:22 But he called on Jochi, “My son, speak.” Chagatai, the second one who believed in Mongol law supposedly, he jumped up and he said…
却对术赤喊道：“儿，说吧。”察合台，第二个据说相信蒙古法律的人，他跳了起来，他说……
This is when he accused his father of all kinds.
就在这时，他对父亲进行了各种指责。
He said, “How can you call on this Mongol, this Merkit bastard?
他说：“你怎么能去拜访这个蒙古人，这个梅尔吉特混蛋呢？
If you call on him first, that means you want him to be the Great Khan.
如果你先拜见他，那就意味着你希望他成为大汗。
He should not be the Great Khan of the Mongol Empire.
他不应该是蒙古帝国的大汗。
This is Mongol Empire now.” On and on.
现在是蒙古帝国了。”不断地。
You can imagine kind of scene.
你可以想象一下什么样的场景。
Well, Chinggis Khan is the greatest ruler in the world.
嗯，成吉思汗是世界上最伟大的统治者。
He’s sitting there being lectured by his second son, and this is when he gave that impassioned speech to his…
他坐在那里听他的二儿子讲课，就在这时，他向他的……发表了慷慨激昂的演讲。
Actually, the way the secret history, it makes it look like it was his assistant speaker who said it because very often the great power doesn’t say the words directly.
事实上，从秘史的角度来看，这看起来像是他的助理议长说的，因为很多时候大国不会直接说出来。
They let somebody else say them for them.
他们让别人替他们说。
They have a spokesperson.
他们有发言人。
But anyway, I think it was his words, and I think he said them on that day.
但无论如何，我认为这是他的话，而且我认为他那天也说过这些话。
3:33:22 That’s what I think on this business of, “You do not know.
这就是我对这件事的看法：“你不知道。
You were not there.
你不在那儿。
The stars were moving in the sky, the head was turning around, the Earth was turning over.
星星在天空中移动，头在转动，地球在转动。
You do not know who loved who.
你不知道谁爱谁。
You do not know who your mother loved.
你不知道你的母亲爱谁。
You do not know what your mother did.
你不知道你母亲做了什么。
And if I say he is my son, who are you to say he is not my son?”
如果我说他是我的儿子，你有什么资格说他不是我的儿子？”
By the way, really high integrity, really respectable to do that.
顺便说一句，他的诚信度很高，这样做真的很受人尊敬。
Yes.
是的。
To have that respect and honor his wife in this way.
以这种方式尊重和尊重他的妻子。
Yes.
是的。
And his son in this way.
而他的儿子也是这样。
3:33:58 It’s really powerful.
它真的很强大。
I believe that I don’t know if she was alive at this point or not.
我相信我不知道她此时是否还活着。
3:34:01 We do not have the death recorded.
我们没有死亡记录。
Mongols are not good at recording death.
蒙古人不擅长记录死亡。
They don’t.
他们不知道。
They usually just say somebody finished their age or they have some euphemism for it.
他们通常只是说某人已经过了他们的年龄，或者他们有一些委婉的说法。
But he made that impassioned speech and Chagatai had to submit, and he said, “Yes, you are our father, and we accept what you say.
但他发表了慷慨激昂的讲话，察合台不得不屈服，他说：“是的，你是我们的父亲，我们接受你的说法。
But a deer shot with words cannot be loaded on a horse.
但射出文字的鹿却不能装在马上。
A deer shot with words cannot be eaten.”
射出言语的鹿是不能吃的。”
3:34:36 So Chinggis Khan knew.
所以成吉思汗知道。
So he said to the boys…
于是他对孩子们说……
The boys.
男孩们。
These are middle-aged men.
这些都是中年男子。
They’re not boys.
他们不是男孩。
He said to the men, “What do you want to do?
他对那些人说：“你们想做什么？
What do you want to do?” And he said, “I don’t favor Chagatai because of his attitude and the situation and Tolui is still hot-headed.” He actually end up being drunk and dying early.
你想做什么？他说：“我不看好察合台，因为他的态度和情况，拖雷仍然头脑发热。”他实际上最终喝醉了并且很早就死了。
But the other guys, they said, “Well, Ogedei.” They chose him because he was the most generous and the bon vivant.
但其他人却说：“好吧，窝阔台。”他们选择他是因为他最慷慨、最享乐。
He was for every party and drinking every time.
他参加每一次聚会，每次都喝酒。
And yeah, one time, Shigi Qutuqu the great judge who wrote The Secret History, Shigi Qutuqu was sleeping on a cart one time for whatever reason.
是的，有一次，写《秘史》的伟大法官Shigi Qutuqu，Shigi Qutuqu有一次因为某种原因睡在一辆马车上。
I don’t know what.
我不知道是什么。
I think he also had passed out drunk perhaps, but Ogedei came out drunk and grabbed him up and pulled him back into the party.
我想他也许也喝醉了，但窝阔台喝醉了出来，把他拉了起来，拉回了队伍中。
Ogedei was a party guy.
窝阔台是个派对狂。
3:35:37 And so he was chosen as the next Great Khan of the Mongol Empire.
因此他被选为蒙古帝国的下一任大汗。
But fortunately, there was sort of a plan B, and that Chinggis Khan had set up very powerful women, his daughters, but also he had chosen wives for each of his sons, very, very capable wives.
但幸运的是，有一个B计划，成吉思汗设立了非常有权势的女性，他的女儿，而且他还为他的每个儿子挑选了妻子，非常非常能干的妻子。
And for Ogedei, he had a wife who wasn’t even his first wife.
而对于窝阔台来说，他的妻子甚至不是他的第一任妻子。
The first wife would usually be somebody closer by certain clan or something.
第一任妻子通常是某个家族的近亲或其他人。
But he had a very intelligent woman named Toregene.
但他有一个非常聪明的女人，名叫托雷金（Toregene）。
And then she was more or less ruling in his last few years.
然后她在他最后的几年里或多或少地占据了统治地位。
And then after he died, she ruled Empire in her own name.
他死后，她以自己的名义统治帝国。
She was the ruler of the greatest empire in world ever ruled by a woman.
她是世界上有史以来由女性统治的最伟大帝国的统治者。
It’s incredible.
太不可思议了。
3:36:27 The genius of Genghis to set it up that way.
成吉思汗的天才就是这样设置的。
Yes.
是的。
There’s probably very widespread discrimination of women at that time.
当时对女性的歧视可能非常普遍。
3:36:35 And to have not care about any of that and just making the right decision.
并且不关心任何这些，只是做出正确的决定。
Yes.
是的。
For what will keep the Empire together.
为了让帝国团结起来。
And Toregene was…
托雷金是……
3:36:49 Actually, there was peace.
事实上，那里曾有过和平。
She stopped all campaigns.
她停止了所有活动。
There was peace during her time.
在她的时代，社会风平浪静。
And the women such as Toregene and others were extremely into economics and trade and running these, they had these private corporations called [foreign language 03:37:05].
Toregene 等女性非常热衷于经济和贸易并经营这些领域，她们拥有这些名为[外语 03:37:05] 的私营公司。
She was running her [foreign language 03:37:07] and everything.
她正在管理她的[外语03:37:07]和一切。
So she became much more interested in economics of the trade and running the Empire.
因此，她对贸易经济学和管理帝国变得更加感兴趣。
And it was a time of peace.
那是一个和平的时期。
And she recognized that peace was better for trade.
她认识到和平更有利于贸易。
It was better.
好多了。
And so it was a peaceful time.
所以这是一段和平的时光。
But like all of us, we have our weak points, and she favored a worthless son to become the successor.
但和我们所有人一样，我们也有弱点，她偏爱一个毫无价值的儿子作为继承人。
And none of the sons actually were great, but Ogedei had favored another.
事实上，这些儿子中没有一个是伟大的，但窝阔台却偏爱另一个。
But anyway, she favored Guyuk, her son.
但无论如何，她还是偏爱她的儿子贵由。
And so she arranged to have him made a great emperor while she was still alive.
于是，她就安排他趁她还活着的时候，让他做了一个伟大的皇帝。
And she had her primary minister was also a woman named Fatima from the Middle East.
她的首席部长也是一位来自中东的名叫法蒂玛的女性。
And unfortunately, Guyuk organized a purge of her court and killed off a lot of these people who had been supporting her.
不幸的是，贵由组织了一次对她宫廷的清洗，并杀死了许多一直支持她的人。
3:38:02 And a lot of them were Muslims.
其中很多人是穆斯林。
And he killed awful lot.
他杀了很多人。
And then he was going to march against the Golden Horde because they weren’t supporting him.
然后他要向金帐汗国进军，因为他们不支持他。
So he set off and he died.
于是他出发了，然后就死了。
He was only in office for 18 months, and he was gone.
他只上任18个月，就下台了。
And then his wife took over, Oghul Qaimish.
然后他的妻子奥古尔·卡米什（Oghul Qaimish）接手了。
Unfortunately, she was not capable as her mother-in-law, Toregene.
不幸的是，她没有婆婆托雷金那样的能力。
Oghul Qaimish was a bit greedy, and she didn’t start any new wars, but she just kind of messed up things.
奥古尔·卡米什有点贪婪，她没有发动任何新的战争，但她只是把事情搞砸了。
And she didn’t rule for too long.
而且她统治的时间并不长。
And this is why Kublai Khan’s mother, Sorghaghtani, was able to have a revolution.
这就是忽必烈的母亲高丽塔尼能够发动革命的原因。
She united with the Golden Horde.
她与金帐汗国联合。
She was on one end on China.
她在中国问题上处于一端。
She had Northern China.
她有中国北方。
The Golden Horde had Russia.
金帐汗国拥有俄罗斯。
The two of them united against the center.
他们两人联合起来反对中央。
And they overthrew Oghul Quaimish.
他们推翻了奥古尔·奎米什。
And she put her son, Mongke, in who was succeeded by Kublai Khan.
她把自己的儿子蒙哥立为忽必烈继位者。
And we should say probably that this whole succession by kin probably goes against the initial spirit-
我们也许应该说，这整个亲属继承可能违背了最初的精神——
Yes.
是的。
…
……
3:39:05 of what Genghis Khan stood for.
成吉思汗所代表的意义。
Yes.
是的。
3:39:07 Yes.
是的。
In the end, he was a father and he favored his sons even knowing they were not so capable.
最后，他作为一个父亲，即使知道儿子们没有那么能干，他还是偏爱他们。
And he had lost a grandson that he loved.
他还失去了一个他深爱的孙子。
But he organized it though, as what we call today, almost a corporation.
但他组织了它，就像我们今天所说的，几乎是一个公司。
All lands belonged to everybody in the family, everybody.
所有土地都属于家庭中的每个人，每个人。
So Kublai Khan, that’s why he had soldiers.
所以忽必烈，这就是他有士兵的原因。
There were Christian soldiers, Ossetian soldiers and Kipchak soldiers.
其中有基督教士兵、奥塞梯士兵和钦察士兵。
He had 10,000 of each come in.
他每人有 10,000 人进来。
And then the Russians would own silk factories in China.
然后俄罗斯人将在中国拥有丝绸工厂。
The Ilkhanate would own silk factories and jade mines in China.
伊儿汗国将在中国拥有丝绸工厂和玉矿。
The people in China, the Mongols, they would own villages in Persia and in Iran.
中国人，蒙古人，他们将在波斯和伊朗拥有村庄。
So he organized it all.
所以他组织了这一切。
Everything was owned by the entire clan.
一切都归整个家族所有。
It didn’t last too long like that because of the divisions that developed.
由于分歧的发展，这种情况并没有持续太久。
So the Great Khan was primarily in charge of conquering and expanding the land, so they had more lands to own.
所以大汗主要负责征服和扩张土地，所以他们有更多的土地可以拥有。
That was going to be the job.
这就是工作。
And Kublai Khan fulfilled it.
而忽必烈也实现了这一点。
Mongke Khan, to some extent, fulfilled it.
蒙哥汗在某种程度上实现了这一点。
Ogedei did.
窝阔台做到了。
Guyuk did not.
贵由没有。
This family ruling the land, all the different territories.
这个家族统治着这片土地，所有不同的领地。
Yeah.
是的。
3:40:33 And they weakened with every generation.
而且随着每一代人的发展，它们的力量都在减弱。
Yeah.
是的。
Every generation.
每一代人。
But that reminds me of a very popular idea about Genghis Khan articulated in the 2003 paper titled The Genetic Legacy of the Mongols.
但这让我想起了 2003 年题为《蒙古人的遗传遗产》的论文中阐述的关于成吉思汗的一个非常流行的观点。
3:40:38 So that paper has a finding that estimates that 0.5% of the world’s male population is descended, direct descendants of Genghis Khan.
因此，该论文的一项发现估计，世界上 0.5% 的男性人口是成吉思汗的直系后裔。
I’ve heard you kind of be a little bit skeptical of this paper, but I actually really like its findings.
我听说你对这篇论文有点怀疑，但实际上我真的很喜欢它的发现。
I talked to a good friend of mine, Manolis Kellis, who’s a biologist, computational biologist and geneticist, and he likes the paper as well.
我和我的一个好朋友马诺利斯·凯利斯（Manolis Kellis）交谈过，他是一位生物学家、计算生物学家和遗传学家，他也喜欢这篇论文。
I find it really convincing.
我觉得真的很有说服力。
But I think your skepticism has to do not necessarily with the paper’s contents but more the implication that it speaks to the thing that maybe the people who think of Genghis Khan as a brutal barbarian assume that the reason is 0.5% of the population is because of some institutionalized mass rape conducted by Genghis Khan.
但我认为你的怀疑不一定与论文的内容有关，更多的是它所暗示的，也许那些认为成吉思汗是野蛮野蛮人的人认为，原因是 0.5% 的人口是因为成吉思汗进行了一些制度化的大规模强奸。
3:41:47 But to me, and we actually spoke about this, you can’t get those kinds of numbers with rape.
但对我来说，我们实际上讨论过这一点，你无法通过强奸获得这些数字。
If you want for the empire to propagate the gene, if you were a person that wanted to propagate the genes, you would make sure that all the lands you conquer are stable, flourishing, and happy.
如果你想让帝国传播基因，如果你是一个想要传播基因的人，你就会确保你所征服的所有土地都安定、繁荣、幸福。
And so actually, this is much better explained in the paper.
事实上，论文对此做了更好的解释。
It indicates this.
它表明了这一点。
It’s better explained by it was of high value, like social status value to be associated with the lineage of Genghis Khan.
更好的解释是它具有很高的价值，例如与成吉思汗血统相关的社会地位价值。
And so that means that for many generations, people loved the Great Khan.
这意味着世世代代，人们都热爱大汗。
Yes.
是的。
The Genghis Khan.
成吉思汗。
3:42:34 And so in that sense, given how vast the land was, all the transformational effects it has on trade, on culture and so on, it makes total sense.
因此，从这个意义上说，考虑到这片土地有多大，以及它对贸易、文化等产生的所有变革性影响，这是完全有道理的。
In fact, the 0.5%, just so people understand, is just male descendants.
事实上，这0.5%，正如人们所理解的，只是男性后裔。
The way it works, that means if this paper is at all correct in its estimate, that the number of people descendant, not direct male descendants, but the way trees work is there’s women on each step.
它的运作方式意味着，如果这篇论文的估计完全正确，那么后代的数量，而不是直接的男性后代，但树木的运作方式是每一步都有女性。
Yeah.
是的。
So the number of descendants could be much larger than that.
所以后代的数量可能比这个多得多。
3:43:12 So I think that’s pretty interesting.
所以我认为这很有趣。
And I think there’s singular figures like this in history but none like Genghis.
我认为历史上有这样的独特人物，但没有像成吉思汗这样的。
It’s interesting.
这很有趣。
3:43:25 It’s fun.
这很有趣。
Where did they get the DNA from Genghis Khan?
他们从哪里得到成吉思汗的DNA？
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
3:43:30 So one of the criticism you have is like, well-
所以你的批评之一是，嗯——
They don’t have one shred of scientific.
他们没有一丁点科学依据。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
They’re supposed to be scientific.
它们应该是科学的。
3:43:37 No, they found that a bunch of people are connected.
不，他们发现一群人是有联系的。
Yes.
是的。
And then they choose-
然后他们选择——
No.
不。
3:43:45 To one person.
对一个人。
To one person.
对一个人。
Yes.
是的。
But they choose Genghis Khan.
但他们选择了成吉思汗。
Right.
正确的。
3:43:47 But who else?
但还有谁呢？
There’s no evidence that it was from him.
没有证据表明这是他发出的。
3:43:48 No evidence.
没有证据。
It’s from that time.
就是从那个时候开始的。
3:43:51 It’s one person.
这是一个人。
But from that time or 200 years before?
但从那时起还是从200年前开始呢？
It could be 200 years before.
这可能是200年前的事了。
Yes.
是的。
3:43:58 Yes.
是的。
See, I mean, actually, I would like for it to be true in a certain way.
瞧，我的意思是，实际上，我希望它在某种程度上是真实的。
I would, and I do think there is a truth there.
我愿意，而且我确实认为这是事实。
Yeah.
是的。
I think that by attaching it to the name of Genghis Khan, they’ve done a disservice to themselves.
我认为，将其与成吉思汗的名字联系起来，他们对自己造成了伤害。
3:44:07 But it gets a lot of publicity and a lot more funding, and it’s exciting and so on.
但它得到了大量的宣传和更多的资金，而且令人兴奋等等。
But I think it’s to that Mongol experience.
但我认为这是蒙古人的经历。
But Genghis Khan’s descendants were almost every one categorized and recorded.
但成吉思汗的后裔几乎都被分类记录下来了。
He’s the largest conqueror in the world.
他是世界上最大的征服者。
You do not have just children popping up all over the place.
你不只是到处冒出来的孩子。
He had four wives all the time.
他一直有四个妻子。
He had children with two of them.
他与其中的两个人育有孩子。
3:44:35 That’s not a lot of descendants.
这样的后代并不多。
We know mostly who they are for many generations.
我们知道他们是谁，已经有好几代人了。
His brother, Qasar, had many more children than he did.
他的兄弟卡萨尔（Qasar）的孩子比他多得多。
Many more.
还有更多。
And they caused a lot of problems later on for the Empire too by rivaling the power.
他们后来也通过争夺权力给帝国带来了很多问题。
So it could be that one of these other people, Bodonchar Deful, could have been the origin of this.
因此，其他人之一，Bodonchar Deful，可能是这件事的起源。
It could have been back well before Chinggis Khan.
它可能早在成吉思汗之前就已经出现了。
And in Mongolia today, we have nobody who claims descent from Chinggis Khan.
今天在蒙古，没有人声称自己是成吉思汗的后裔。
Well, claims is a different thing than biology, right?
好吧，主张与生物学不同，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
So the reason I say this is this methodology is pretty solid.
所以我这么说的原因是这个方法论非常可靠。
Oh, I believe that they found some connection of people.
哦，我相信他们发现了一些人与人之间的联系。
Yeah.
是的。
3:45:24 But it’s-
但它是——
They have no evidence-
他们没有证据——
That it’s Genghis Khan.
那是成吉思汗。
…
……
3:45:26 that it’s really connected to Chinggis Khan.
这确实与成吉思汗有关。
I think it may be tangentially connected to him.
我想这可能和他有一定的关系。
Yeah.
是的。
3:45:32 But it’s somebody from the Mongolia region.
但这是来自蒙古地区的人。
Yeah, I think that’s quite possible.
是的，我认为这很有可能。
3:45:35 But we’ve already had the Hans come through.
但我们已经让汉斯渡过了难关。
We’ve had all the Turks.
我们已经拥有了所有土耳其人。
Yes.
是的。
3:45:40 Yeah.
是的。
Every one of the Turkic nations is descended from Mongolia.
每一个突厥民族都是蒙古的后裔。
Yeah.
是的。
They all came out of Mongolia.
他们都来自蒙古。
I mean, you’re right.
我的意思是，你是对的。
3:45:47 You’re right.
你说得对。
On the other hand, I wish they could get some proof.
另一方面，我希望他们能得到一些证据。
3:45:49 I wish it could be true.
我希望这是真的。
Yeah.
是的。
I just can’t believe it the way it is.
我简直不敢相信事情就是这样。
3:45:55 We have no DNA.
我们没有DNA。
Nobody knows where he went.
没有人知道他去了哪里。
They don’t.
他们不知道。
3:46:02 So they don’t know where he’s buried?
所以他们不知道他埋在哪里？
Okay.
好的。
3:46:04 Chinggis Khan said, “Let my body go, let my nation live.” And he chose to be buried in an unmarked grave.
成吉思汗说：“放我的肉身，让我的国家活下去。”他选择被埋葬在一个没有标记的坟墓里。
And the Mongols believe very strongly, it should always be that way.
蒙古人坚信，事情应该永远如此。
Most of the Khans who followed him were also buried in a similar way.
追随他的大多数可汗也大多以类似的方式埋葬。
The Chinese emperors were buried in very elaborate tombs, but not the Yuan dynasty.
中国的皇帝都埋葬在非常精致的陵墓中，但元朝却不然。
No.
不。
And so Kublai Khan was buried back with his grandfather in an anonymous grave.
于是忽必烈就被安葬在一个无名坟墓里，和他的祖父一起埋葬。
3:46:38 And not everyone, like Guyuk died when he was on campaign towards Russia.
并不是每个人都像古尤克一样在征战俄罗斯时死去。
He was died out there.
他死在了那里。
I mean he was buried out there.
我的意思是他被埋在那里。
I think his father, Ogedei, was also buried out there.
我想他的父亲窝阔台也埋在那里。
That was more their homeland, but many of them were buried with him.
那更像是他们的祖国，但他们中的许多人都与他一起埋葬。
And it’s known and not known at the same time.
它同时是已知的和未知的。
Officially you should not know it.
官方你不应该知道这一点。
You cannot know it.
你不可能知道它。
It should never be disturbed.
它永远不应该被打扰。
He should never be disturbed.
他永远不应该被打扰。
We’re not going to have a tour group coming in.
我们不会有旅行团进来。
But you’re saying like the people of Mongolia, they have a sense.
但你是说像蒙古人民一样，他们有理智。
They believe he’s in a certain place.
他们相信他在某个地方。
3:47:20 Yes.
是的。
And they believe they know where the place is.
他们相信他们知道这个地方在哪里。
But it’s sacred.
但它是神圣的。
You can do nothing, nothing.
你什么也做不了，什么也做不了。
Just leave it as it is.
就保持原样吧。
That’s no roads, no buildings, no killing of animals, no chopping of trees.
没有道路，没有建筑物，没有杀害动物，没有砍伐树木。
Nothing can be done.
什么也做不了。
It’s a holy land dedicated to him and his family.
这是献给他和他的家人的圣地。
It’s pretty amazing.
这真是太神奇了。
3:47:45 Unmarked grave.
没有标记的坟墓。
Yes.
是的。
For the greatest conqueror in the history of humanity.
为人类历史上最伟大的征服者。
Yeah.
是的。
For good and for bad, the most impactful, one of the most impactful humans in history.
无论好坏，他都是历史上最有影响力的人之一。
Yes.
是的。
3:47:59 I believe in his thing about let my nation live.
我相信他关于让我的国家生存下去的想法。
Let my body go.
让我的身体走吧。
Yeah.
是的。
And I say to people, they ask me, “Well, what did he look like?” And I say, “Well, the portrait was painted 50 years later by somebody who never saw him.” And actually, if you look at the portrait of Kublai Khan and Genghis Khan, they look alike except one’s old and one’s younger.
我对人们说，他们问我，“那么，他长什么样？”我说，“嗯，这幅肖像是 50 年后由一个从未见过他的人画的。”事实上，如果你看一下忽必烈和成吉思汗的肖像，除了一个老一个年轻之外，他们看起来很相似。
3:48:04 And I think that’s because Kublai was trying to establish, he wanted to establish his legitimacy as a real Mongol that they looked alike.
我认为这是因为忽必烈试图建立，他想建立他作为一个真正的蒙古人的合法性，他们看起来很相似。
But his grandfather said he didn’t.
但他的祖父说他没有。
And then Ogedei Khan and Mongke Khan looked different.
然后窝阔台汗和蒙哥汗的表情就不一样了。
They looked different.
他们看起来不同。
So there was nothing.
所以什么也没有。
But I say, “If you want to see the face of Genghis Khan, walk in any ger in Mongolia.
但我说：“如果你想看到成吉思汗的面容，就走进蒙古的任何一个蒙古包吧。
The first child you see, that’s the face of Genghis Khan.
你看到的第一个孩子，就是成吉思汗的脸。
It’s his nation.
这是他的国家。
He created that nation.
他创造了那个国家。
That’s his face.”
那是他的脸。”
Does that make you sad that there is no, from his time, capturing of his image, that he really made himself sort of disappear into the land?
从他那个时代起，就没有捕捉到他的形象，他真的让自己消失在这片土地上，这会让你感到悲伤吗？
3:48:45 Does that make you sad?
这会让你伤心吗？
No, not at all.
不，一点也不。
3:49:02 No, because he’s everywhere.
不，因为他无处不在。
When you have these clans that are still operating in Afghanistan, and the Russians are still using the Yam system, there are many aspects of him that are out there in the world.
当这些部落仍在阿富汗活动，而俄罗斯人仍在使用 Yam 系统时，他的许多方面都存在于世界上。
And I think I find personally inspiration the same way that Thomas Jefferson did.
我想我像托马斯·杰斐逊那样寻找个人灵感。
3:49:27 He found so much inspiration in the life of Genghis Khan and the books of Genghis Khan that you can still read.
他从成吉思汗的一生和成吉思汗的著作中找到了很多灵感，至今你仍然可以阅读。
He bought so many copies and gave to the Library of Congress, to the Library of Virginia, the University of Virginia, and to his granddaughter.
他买了很多本，送给了国会图书馆、弗吉尼亚图书馆、弗吉尼亚大学和他的孙女。
These ideas live on, and we still have not fulfilled them.
这些想法一直存在，但我们仍然没有实现。
We do not have religious freedom.
我们没有宗教自由。
We do not have the protections for women.
我们没有对妇女的保护。
We do not have the protections for envoys and ambassadors.
我们没有对特使和大使的保护。
The ideas live on, and the rulers do not live as the common people to eat the same food, wear the same clothes, sleep in the same, but not a bed in his case, but sleep in the same situation and simple home.
这种思想一直存在，统治者并不像老百姓一样吃同样的食物，穿同样的衣服，睡同样的床，但睡在同样的情况和简单的家里。
No.
不。
I have tremendous respect for leaders that live just as the people who they lead.
我非常尊重那些和他们所领导的人民一样生活的领导者。
Yes.
是的。
It’s mostly not done.
大部分都没有完成。
3:50:24 But when it is, have just infinite respect for that.
但当它发生时，请对此抱有无限的尊重。
That is the way.
就是这样。
What lessons can we learn from Genghis Khan that apply to the modern world?
我们可以从成吉思汗身上学到哪些适用于现代世界的教训？
You’ve already said religious freedom, some of these ideas.
你已经说过宗教自由，其中一些想法。
Well, I think his policy ideas I think are important.
嗯，我认为他的政策理念很重要。
3:50:42 We can still learn from that about protection of diplomats, not buying and selling women, not kidnapping women and having religious freedom of individuals.
我们仍然可以从中学到保护外交官、不买卖妇女、不绑架妇女以及个人的宗教自由。
But also he had interesting things.
但他也有有趣的事情。
He had tax-free status for all religions, all physicians and all teachers.
他对所有宗教、所有医生和所有教师都享有免税地位。
They didn’t pay taxes in his Empire.
他们在他的帝国里不纳税。
As a former teacher, I embrace that idea out of pure greed and self-interest.
作为一名前教师，我出于纯粹的贪婪和自身利益而接受这个想法。
But it’s not, to me, the idea of saving the money.
但对我来说，这并不是省钱的想法。
It’s the idea of focusing on that as something important for the society.
这是关注对社会重要的事情的想法。
He didn’t say tax-free for any other category of people, as I recall, just for those.
我记得他没有说对任何其他类别的人免税，只是对这些人免税。
And he’s highlighting the health of the people, the education of the people, and the spirit of the people there spiritually.
他强调人民的健康、人民的教育以及人民的精神。
That’s very important.
这非常重要。
That’s a profound approach to life.
这是一种深刻的生活方式。
And so these are policies, and I’m not advocating so much to policies, but I think some of the general principles of being willing to learn from our mistakes.
所以这些都是政策，我并不是那么提倡政策，但我认为愿意从错误中吸取教训的一些一般原则。
Admit your mistake to yourself, correct it and go on with your life.
向自己承认错误，改正它，然后继续你的生活。
3:51:59 All of us say it’s important, but we don’t do it for the most part.
我们所有人都说这很重要，但大多数情况下我们并没有这样做。
We don’t learn from our failures as much as we think.
我们从失败中学到的东西并没有我们想象的那么多。
The other idea of promoting people on ability, I think that’s certainly an idea that is very valuable, not in the simple way of meritocracy that we’ve done it with.
另一种根据能力提拔人才的想法，我认为这当然是一个非常有价值的想法，而不是像我们所采用的简单的精英管理方式。
Oh, if you pass the exam with this score, you get this or that.
哦，如果你以这个分数通过考试，你就会得到这个或那个。
But really evaluating people and their ability, I think it’s a very good thing.
但真正评估人和他们的能力，我认为这是一件非常好的事情。
Not the only thing, but I think it’s very important.
不是唯一的，但我认为这是非常重要的。
And even though he failed in the end in his own life, and he turned power over to his sons and his family, it’s a principle that he lived by most of his life, and we can learn from that principle.
尽管他最终失败了，并将权力交给了他的儿子和家人，但这是他一生中大部分时间都遵循的原则，我们可以从这个原则中学习。
The other thing I think is just his global feel for the world.
我认为的另一件事是他对世界的全球感觉。
His global understanding.
他的全球理解力。
Here was a man who had had no education in any formal sense.
这是一个没有受过任何正式教育的人。
3:52:55 And he had this sense that the world should be united.
他有一种感觉，世界应该团结起来。
We should have things that unite all people.
我们应该拥有能够团结所有人的东西。
Everybody should have their own law, but there should be a higher law of heaven that governs people.
每个人都应该有自己的法律，但应该有更高的天法来统治人们。
And this later was translated, everybody should have their own language, but they all write the same alphabet by Kublai Khan.
后来这句话被翻译了，每个人都应该有自己的语言，但他们都写着忽必烈汗的相同字母。
It didn’t work.
它不起作用。
Or his idea, he tried to impose the use of paper currency in Iran, the Persian Ilkhanate Chinese paper money.
还是他的想法，他试图强行在伊朗使用纸币，波斯伊尔汗国的纸币。
It didn’t work.
它不起作用。
The people there weren’t used to it but all this international spirit of their Empire, I think that we need today.
那里的人们并不习惯，但我认为我们今天需要他们帝国的所有这些国际精神。
We talk about, oh, globalization, we’re all connected, it’s just incredible.
我们谈论，哦，全球化，我们都是相互联系的，这真是令人难以置信。
And we’re more provincial than ever.
我们比以往任何时候都更加狭隘。
We are just so provincial, and sometimes we use all this technology to help preserve our provincialism.
我们是如此狭隘，有时我们使用所有这些技术来帮助维护我们的狭隘主义。
And we can’t think in global terms.
我们不能从全球角度思考。
We can’t think about the world.
我们无法思考这个世界。
It’s just amazing to me how narrow-minded we are.
让我惊讶的是我们的心胸是多么狭隘。
I also saw the Mongol proverb of, “If you’re afraid, don’t do it.
我还看到了蒙古谚语：“如果你害怕，就不要做。
3:53:58 If you do it, don’t be afraid.”
如果你这么做了，就不要害怕。”
Yes.
是的。
That you especially celebrate.
你特别庆祝。
3:54:08 There is something to that.
这是有原因的。
In many ways, Genghis Khan is a representation of a person, of a self-made man.
在很多方面，成吉思汗都是一个人的代表，一个白手起家的人的代表。
That person from nothing.
那人从无到有。
Yes.
是的。
Willed an entire empire into existence.
意志一整个帝国的存在。
Yes.
是的。
3:54:30 And everything against him that you can think of.
以及你能想到的一切反对他的事情。
Your own family deserting you, your father dying at an early age, all these things like that.
你自己的家人抛弃了你，你的父亲早逝，诸如此类的事情。
But as Jamukha said, he had a good mother and he had a good wife.
但正如札木合所说，他有一位好母亲，也有一位好妻子。
And there were many crucial points at which it was either his mother or his wife who made the deciding point.
而且有很多关键点，要么是他的母亲，要么是他的妻子做出了决定。
His wife, Borte was the one who caused the first break with Jamukha to go away.
他的妻子博尔特是导致与札木合第一次决裂的人。
Later on when the shamans had become too powerful, and they had humiliated his younger brother, she was the one who said he had to clamp down on the shamans who were exercising too much power.
后来萨满太强大了，羞辱了他的弟弟，她就是说他必须镇压那些权力太大的萨满。
And she guided him a lot.
她给了他很多指导。
It cannot be understated how important and critical women are in this story of the Mongol Empire.
不可低估女性在蒙古帝国故事中的重要性和关键性。
Yes.
是的。
It’s fascinating.
这很有趣。
Yes.
是的。
3:55:32 And sometimes because they’re not behind the scenes because they’re always out front.
有时因为他们不是在幕后，而是因为他们总是在前台。
In the Mongol Court, they always sat up front.
在蒙古宫廷里，他们总是坐在前面。
They were always out front.
他们总是冲在最前面。
And this horrified the Chinese who were very good…
这让优秀的中国人感到震惊……
It horrified the Muslims.
这让穆斯林感到震惊。
It horrified the Christians.
这让基督徒感到震惊。
They didn’t know what to…
他们不知道该做什么……
They say, “The women even drink in public.” Okay, yeah, they drink in public.
他们说，“女性甚至在公共场合喝酒。”好吧，是的，他们在公共场合喝酒。
They do what?
他们做什么？
So sometimes it was like that, but other times it is with Toregene.
所以有时候是这样，但其他时候托雷金就是这样。
She’s actually the ruler or the case of his daughters, such as Alaqa Beki, who ruled over a part of northern China called the Angut people, and other daughters who ruled over different…
她实际上是统治者或者他的女儿们的例子，比如统治中国北方一个叫做安古特人的地区的阿拉卡贝基，以及统治不同……的其他女儿。
They ruled in their own names.
他们以自己的名义进行统治。
And this is something about The Secret History that upset me.
《秘史》中的这一点让我感到不安。
All the sections are numbered.
所有部分均已编号。
I get to chapter or number or section 215, and there’s only half a sentence left.
我读到第 215 章或第 215 节，只剩下半句话了。
3:56:31 In 214, he’s just awarded a girl he calls his daughter, so she’s probably a clan daughter, but she lives with his mother at this point.
214年，他刚刚授予了一个被他称为女儿的女孩，所以她可能是一个氏族女儿，但此时她和他的母亲住在一起。
His youngest son, Tolui, is only four years old.
他最小的儿子拖雷才四岁。
A tatar comes and Mother Hoelun gives him food because you food everybody.
一个鞑靼人来了，诃额伦妈妈给他食物，因为你让每个人都吃饱了。
He realized this is the mother of Chinggis Khan, and that’s the child of Chinggis Khan.
他意识到这是成吉思汗的母亲，那是成吉思汗的孩子。
He grabs him up and kidnaps him and runs out, and he’s holding the child in one hand, and he’s pulling out a knife with another hand.
他一把抓住孩子，绑架了他，然后跑了出去，他一手抱着孩子，另一只手拔出了一把刀。
Altani raced out and she grabbed his arm and held it down.
阿尔塔尼冲了出去，她抓住他的手臂并按住。
And two men, Jebe and Jelme, they were back behind the ger, slaughtering an ox with an ax because you have to do it in the shade behind the ger.
杰贝（Jebe）和杰尔梅（Jelme）两个人回到蒙古包后面，用斧头宰杀一头牛，因为你必须在蒙古包后面的阴凉处做这件事。
You don’t do it in the light.
你不是在光下做的。
And so they were back there doing that.
所以他们回到那里做那件事。
So they raced out with ax and they kill the man.
于是他们拿着斧头冲了出去，杀死了那个人。
3:57:20 And so then Chinggis Khan is rewarding everybody for all their great deeds.
因此，成吉思汗正在奖励每个人的伟大行为。
And Jelme and Jebe, they wanted to be rewarded for saving the life of Tolui.
还有杰尔梅和杰贝，他们希望因拯救托雷的生命而得到奖励。
He said, “No, you killed a tatar.
他说：“不，你杀了一个鞑靼人。
Altani saved his life because she held the hand that had the knife until you got there to kill him.
阿尔塔尼救了他的命，因为她一直握着拿刀的手，直到你到达那里杀死他。
She saved it, and now we reward her.” So he’s finished that story in 214.
她救了它，现在我们奖励她。”所以他在214年完成了那个故事。
We get to 215.
我们到达215。
He says, “Now, let us reward our daughters.” It’s actually only a phrase.
他说：“现在，让我们奖励我们的女儿们吧。”其实只是一个短语。
I said it as a complete sentence, but it’s not quite complete.
我说的是一个完整的句子，但并不完全。
The rest is gone, cut out.
剩下的没了，剪掉。
It’s missing.
它不见了。
And I was just so…
而我就是这样……
3:58:00 It’s missing.
它不见了。
And I was just so …
而我就是这样……
And I looked at all these different translations of how to different language, and most often they translate it as, and now let us marry our daughters.
我查看了所有这些不同语言的不同翻译，大多数情况下他们将其翻译为“现在让我们嫁给我们的女儿”。
Oh, no.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
哦，不。
He was very clear in his wedding speeches to his daughters, “I give these people to you to rule.
他在对女儿们的婚礼致辞中非常明确地说：“我把这些人交给你来统治。
You have three husbands.
你有三个丈夫。
You have your honor, you have your nation, and you have the man that I give to you, but the man I give to you goes in the army with me and brings his soldiers.”
你有你的荣誉，你有你的国家，你有我给你的人，但我给你的人和我一起参军，带着他的士兵。”
Genius.
天才。
You stay here and rule it to people.
你留在这里并统治人民。
Brilliant.
杰出的。
The Chinese, when they arrived in the court of Al Thani, they didn’t know what to think.
中国人，当他们到达阿勒萨尼宫廷时，他们不知道该怎么想。
3:58:43 There she is ruling this area of the Angut people and they said, “Well, she can read and write and she’s a supreme judge and she doesn’t allow any death sentence without her permission.” But they didn’t say which languages she could read and write.
她在那里统治着安古特人的这个地区，他们说：“好吧，她能读能写，她是最高法官，未经她的许可，她不允许判处任何死刑。”但他们没有说她可以读和写哪些语言。
That has really puzzled me a lot.
这确实让我很困惑。
So, you’re saying the secret history as we have gotten access to, has been edited to remove the significance of women even though they’re still there?
所以，你是说我们所接触到的秘密历史已经被编辑以消除女性的重要性，即使她们仍然存在？
In that case.
在这种情况下。
3:59:17 I mean, other cases with his mother, they did not and all.
我的意思是，在他母亲的其他案例中，他们都没有。
But I think in that case, because what happened is most of these women had few offsprings because their husband was gone to war and Al Thani, of course, she married several times, sometimes sons of the last one.
但我认为在这种情况下，因为所发生的情况是，这些妇女中的大多数都很少有后代，因为她们的丈夫参加了战争，而阿勒萨尼，当然，她结过几次婚，有时是最后一个的儿子。
But they were going off to war and they weren’t reproducing there.
但他们要去打仗，并且不能在那里繁殖。
Only one Checheyigen who was ruling in Siberia, she was the one who had a whole bunch of daughters.
西伯利亚只有一个统治者切切伊根，她是拥有一大堆女儿的人。
They wouldn’t be going off to war.
他们不会去打仗。
And so, they actually spread out through the empire and had a lot of power later.
所以，他们实际上遍布整个帝国，并且后来拥有了很大的势力。
3:59:53 But what happened was the area for Alakhai Bekhi, for example, was then taken over by Kublai Khan and then all the Turkey areas, one by one, were taken over by their nephews as they died out, not in their own lifetime, they didn’t kill the women off.
但发生的事情是，例如阿拉凯别克希地区，然后被忽必烈占领，然后所有土耳其地区，一一被他们的侄子占领，因为他们死了，而不是在他们自己的一生中，他们没有杀死妇女。
But as they died out, the men took it over.
但随着它们的灭绝，人类接管了它。
And so, then they just wanted to erase it.
所以，然后他们只想删除它。
It’s like, “No.
就像，“不。
Northern China, even though it was ruled by Sorghaghtani, it always was Mongol.” She was ruling because her husband was Mongol and her sons were Mongol.
中国北方，虽然是高粱统治的，但始终是蒙古人的。”她之所以能统治，是因为她的丈夫是蒙古人，她的儿子也是蒙古人。
Therefore, they had the right to rule it.
因此，他们有权利统治它。
So, they cut out the women for those reasons.
因此，出于这些原因，他们排除了女性。
4:00:34 I think anytime it threatened the power of a particular man, then there are other little things that are added in there.
我认为每当它威胁到某个特定人的权力时，就会有其他的小东西被添加进去。
Sometimes you can find a phrase and …
有时你可以找到一个短语并......
This does not fit.
这不合适。
That phrase was not in the original.
原著中并没有这句话。
Yeah.
是的。
4:00:46 In studying human history, what have you learned about human nature and just the trajectory of humanity throughout the past several millennia?
在研究人类历史的过程中，你对人性以及人类几千年来的发展轨迹了解了哪些？
I tend to have a certain love for individuals and persons, but not a love for people, in general, and especially not for institutions.
我倾向于对个人和个人有一定的爱，但一般而言，我不爱人，尤其不爱机构。
4:00:59 I tend to have a great suspicion about almost everything and mistrust in institutions over and over, and I think that’s my own prejudice, and then I find reasons to support that.
我倾向于对几乎所有事情都抱有极大的怀疑，并且一遍又一遍地对机构不信任，我认为这是我自己的偏见，然后我找到理由来支持这一点。
And Genghis Khan was very good at destroying a lot of institutions or bringing them to heel within his empire.
成吉思汗非常擅长摧毁他帝国内的许多机构或让它们就范。
So, then I like that and I stress that and I see those things.
所以，我喜欢这一点，我强调这一点，我看到了这些事情。
I think that’s one thing.
我认为这是一回事。
4:01:38 But other things that I learned from the Mongol people in general, not just about their history and all, but how it’s possible to live for thousands of years in a place that for many people it’s not the most beautiful in the world.
但我从蒙古人民那里学到了其他一些东西，不仅仅是关于他们的历史等等，还有如何在一个对许多人来说不是世界上最美丽的地方生活数千年。
It’s austere.
这是严肃的。
You have a band of mountains and with some trees, and then big band of steppe and then a big band of sand, gravel, desert, the Gobi.
你有一片山脉和一些树木，然后是一大片草原，然后是一大片沙子、砾石、沙漠和戈壁。
And for many people, it’s not appealing.
对于很多人来说，它没有吸引力。
It’s just open.
它刚刚开放。
There’s too much space.
空间太大了。
It’s like we need to build something over here.
就像我们需要在这里建造一些东西一样。
Boy, you could have a condo right there.
男孩，你可以在那里拥有一套公寓。
We could have a building and we could sell them off.
我们可以拥有一栋大楼，然后可以将其出售。
4:02:15 They haven’t given into that.
他们还没有屈服于此。
They really value their country.
他们确实珍视自己的国家。
They protect their country.
他们保护自己的国家。
Even now, only 1% is privately owned.
即使现在，也只有 1% 是私有的。
They keep it down.
他们把它压下来。
And Mongolian records, farm and city count is one category.
而蒙古文记载中，农场和城市计数是一类。
Just it’s settled people.
只不过是安定下来的人而已。
It doesn’t matter.
没关系。
You settle on a farm, you settle in a city, settled people, one category.
你定居在一个农场，你定居在一个城市，定居的人们，一类。
And they lived there in this land that Genghis Khan would return to and love.
他们生活在这片成吉思汗将要回归并热爱的土地上。
If he returned to the capital city, he would not know where he was.
如果回到京城，他就不知道自己在哪里了。
He would have no idea.
他不知道。
And all the people would just say, “Oh, big Mongolian.” “I’m Mongolian.
所有的人都会说：“哦，大蒙古人。” “我是蒙古人。
Yeah.
是的。
I’m Mongol.
我是蒙古人。
I have the hat.
我有帽子。
I have the belt buckle.
我有皮带扣。
I have all the deel that’s all embroidered.
我有所有绣花的衣服。
Yeah.
是的。
I’m Mongol.”
我是蒙古人。”
4:03:04 And Genghis Khan would say, “Where’s your horse?” “Oh, keep it in the countryside.” But he wouldn’t recognize the city.
成吉思汗会说：“你的马呢？” “噢，就留在乡下吧。”但他不认识这座城市。
But it’s still his country, his people, they worship him in a literal sense, not the way we would worship God asking for favors, but in the sense of worshiping him with praise.
但这仍然是他的国家，他的人民，他们在字面意义上敬拜他，不是我们敬拜上帝祈求恩惠的方式，而是以赞美的方式敬拜他。
They have so many songs to praise him.
他们有很多歌来赞美他。
And about half of the hip-hop in the country is in praise of Genghis Khan.
而全国大约一半的嘻哈音乐都在歌颂成吉思汗。
It’s something we can’t understand, because when we pray, we’re usually saying, “Oh, thank you God for this and that and the other, and you’re so wonderful and I love you, so would you please give me and would you please do this, and would you please stop this pain in my knee?” We’re asking for things all over the place.
这是我们无法理解的，因为当我们祈祷时，我们通常会说：“哦，感谢上帝赐予我这个、那个和那个，你太棒了，我爱你，所以请你给我，请你做这个，请你停止我膝盖的疼痛吗？”我们到处都在索取东西。
But Genghis Khan, no, no, no one ever asks for anything.
但是成吉思汗，不，不，从来没有人要求过任何事情。
They just honor him.
他们只是尊敬他。
They just praise him and honor him.
他们只是赞美他、尊敬他。
If I wanted to visit Mongolia, what would you recommend?
如果我想去蒙古，你会推荐什么？
4:03:59 What’s the right way?
正确的方法是什么？
Well, start with my home.
好吧，就从我家开始吧。
4:04:05 Let’s start there.
让我们从这里开始。
You come over there.
你过来一下。
It’s a nice valley.
这是一个美丽的山谷。
I have a nice valley there.
我那里有一个美丽的山谷。
I think almost any direction you go outside of the city is going to be interesting.
我认为几乎任何出城的方向都会很有趣。
It depends a little bit on your purpose.
这在一定程度上取决于您的目的。
Most people go south to the Gobi and they do a loop to the Gobi and around to Karakorum, Kharkhorin, the old capital from Ogedei Khan, but it was abandoned by Kublai Khan.
大多数人南下戈壁，绕一圈到戈壁，绕到喀喇昆仑、哈和林，窝阔台汗的旧都，但被忽必烈遗弃了。
And then they circle back to the city and they may stop off to see what we call Przewalski, the wild horse, but they call it Kaktakhi, to see the takhi.
然后他们绕回城市，可能会停下来看看我们所说的普氏野马（Przewalski），即野马，但他们称之为卡克塔基（Kaktakhi），去看塔克希（takhi）。
Or they may go up to Khovsgol Lake, a big beautiful lake, somewhat like Baikal, but much smaller.
或者他们可能会去库苏古尔湖，这是一个美丽的大湖，有点像贝加尔湖，但小得多。
4:04:52 So, that’s a beautiful trip.
所以，这是一次美好的旅行。
If you want to see the more Turkic area where they hunt with eagles, the far west is where the Kazakh people live.
如果你想看看突厥人用鹰狩猎的地区，最西边就是哈萨克人居住的地方。
And the mountains are absolutely incredibly beautiful.
山绝对是非常美丽的。
Most mountains in Mongolia are gentle, beautiful but gentle.
蒙古的山大多数都是平缓的，美丽但温和。
The farther west you go, the more dramatic they become, the more pointed and peaked and snow covered.
越往西走，它们就越引人注目，变得越尖、越尖、越被雪覆盖。
Then if you go to the Eastern Mongolia, it tends to be very flat.
那么如果你去东蒙古的话，往往会很平坦。
There are massive, massive flocks of cranes that come in every year, millions and millions of cranes.
每年都有大量的鹤群来到这里，有数以百万计的鹤。
There are also tundra swans that come in and golden ducks and all kinds of beautiful birds out there.
还有进来的苔原天鹅、金鸭和各种美丽的鸟类。
And so, each area has something special.
因此，每个区域都有其特殊之处。
4:05:38 If you want, particularly the history of Genghis Khan, the Mongolians love him, they worship him, but they don’t do too much to capitalize on his home area, the Khentii.
如果你愿意的话，特别是成吉思汗的历史，蒙古人爱他，崇拜他，但他们并没有做太多的事情来利用他的家乡肯特。
You can go to the Khentii.
你可以去肯特。
There are areas you cannot go to.
有些地方是你不能去的。
Large, large areas, it’s forbidden.
大面积、大面积，是禁止的。
But you can go.
但你可以走了。
But they don’t capitalize like, “This is the place.” No.
但他们不会大写“这就是这个地方”。不。
They go there themselves out of respect.
出于尊重，他们自己去那里。
But the only one place, they built this statue of him, which is the largest equestrian statue in the world, but it’s the place where they say he found his whip, which is when he was coming back from being at the camp of asking Orgal Khan or Toghrul Khan or Wang Khan to support him.
但唯一的一个地方，他们建造了他的雕像，这是世界上最大的马术雕像，但他们说他就是在这个地方找到他的鞭子的，当时他从营地里请求奥尔加汗、托古鲁尔汗或王汗支持他。
And he’s coming back to his family and on the way, he supposedly found a whip there, which is just a small stick with a couple of strands of rawhide at the end of it that’s used.
他要回到家人身边，在路上，据说他在那里发现了一根鞭子，它只是一根小棍子，末端有几股生皮，是用过的。
4:06:40 But for the Mongolians, it’s a symbolic thing.
但对于蒙古人来说，这是一个象征性的事情。
Because obviously, it’s used for a horse.
因为显然，它是用于马的。
But for the Mongols, your destiny, yourself is your Khiimori, your wind horse that lives inside of you, your wind horse that guides you and gives you opportunities.
但对于蒙古人来说，你的命运，你自己就是你的希森，你内心的风马，引导你、给你机会的风马。
But it’s up to you to ride that wind horse.
但能否驾驭那匹风马取决于你。
It’s up to you to use the wind horse, not to just go wild with the wind horse.
风马的使用取决于你，而不是随风马而狂。
And so, I think it’s at that crucial moment.
所以，我认为现在正处于关键时刻。
He’s on his way back home to go with Jamukha and the other soldiers to the market to rescue Börte.
他正在回家的路上，准备与贾木卡和其他士兵一起前往市场营救波尔特。
And so, symbolically, he found a whip there.
因此，他象征性地在那里发现了一根鞭子。
But I think it means that he found the way to control his destiny, his fate.
但我认为这意味着他找到了掌控他的命运、他的命运的方法。
It’s very important, very important.
这非常重要，非常重要。
And that he did, that was the beginning of everything.
他做到了，这就是一切的开始。
Yes.
是的。
4:07:39 And it symbolized in that statue.
它在那座雕像中象征着。
Some people think that he’s holding this stick, that it’s baton or something like that.
有些人认为他拿着这根棍子，那是指挥棒或类似的东西。
But no, it’s that what they call a whip or tashuur.
但不，这就是他们所说的鞭子或塔舒尔。
We’ve talked a lot about the past.
我们已经谈论了很多过去的事情。
4:07:51 If we look out into the future, what gives you hope for human civilization, for us humans?
展望未来，什么给人类文明、人类带来希望？
Well, almost every day I’m totally dissatisfied with everything on earth.
嗯，几乎每一天我都对地球上的一切都非常不满意。
4:08:02 It’s just that old man, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
只是那个老头，等等，等等，等等。
What are they talking about?
他们在说什么？
My grandchildren are talking to me.
我的孙子们正在跟我说话。
I don’t understand a word they say.
他们说的我一个字都听不懂。
What are they …
他们是什么……
What?
什么？
And who are they talking about?
他们在谈论谁？
I never heard of this.
我从来没有听说过这个。
It’s like that.
就是这样。
And who’s running for office?
谁在竞选公职？
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
It’s everything like that.
一切都是这样。
4:08:26 But then almost every day I meet somebody, just one person who gives you some hope.
但几乎每天我都会遇到一个人，只是一个给你一些希望的人。
You just see somebody doing something nice or they do something nice for you.
你只是看到有人做了一些好事或者他们为你做了一些好事。
And I do find in Asia, that happens a lot, that people just do nice things for old people every day.
我确实发现在亚洲，这种情况经常发生，人们每天都会为老年人做些好事。
And so, then my dissatisfaction with all the big things in the world and the way my grandchildren talk and the way young people are, and then I see something like that.
所以，我对世界上所有的大事、我的孙子们说话的方式和年轻人的方式感到不满，然后我看到了类似的事情。
And often, it’s something with the young people, something that the young people do.
通常，这是与年轻人有关的事情，是年轻人做的事情。
4:09:10 And in Asia, they’re always bringing me things.
在亚洲，他们总是给我带来东西。
They bring me dried curds.
他们给我带来了干凝乳。
They bring me strawberries that they picked in the forest in the summer, or they bring the pine nuts that they found, or they bring me the milk in various forms or yogurt.
他们给我带来夏天在森林里采摘的草莓，或者他们带来他们找到的松子，或者他们给我带来各种形式的牛奶或酸奶。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Everybody thinks “You got to eat the yogurt.
每个人都认为“你必须吃酸奶。
This is from my grandmother and all the other yogurt in the world is not good but my grandmother.
这是我祖母的，世界上所有其他酸奶都不好，但我祖母的。
She knows how to make the best yogurt ever and all.” And so, over and over and over, I’d find despite my all intentions to be in a bad mood, somebody spoils you with these little nice acts that are really very touching, very touching.
她知道如何制作有史以来最好的酸奶。”所以，一遍又一遍，我发现，尽管我一心想心情不好，但有人用这些非常感人、非常感人的小善行来宠坏你。
Yeah.
是的。
4:10:00 And it reminds you that there’s that little flame of goodness that burns in everybody.
它提醒你，每个人内心都燃烧着一点点善良的火焰。
I believe that that on the whole will keep humanity flourishing and keep evolving and changing towards something better with every generation.
我相信，总体而言，这将使人类不断繁荣，并不断发展和改变，使每一代人都变得更好。
Yes.
是的。
4:10:17 The people in Mongolia take such good care of me all the time, all the time.
蒙古人民一直以来都非常照顾我。
And I think my wife had MS. I’ve talked about this before.
我认为我的妻子患有多发性硬化症。我以前谈过这个。
Sometimes she had MS and slowly declined for many years, becoming paralyzed, not able to speak, not able to control her movements or anything.
有时她患有多发性硬化症，多年来慢慢衰弱，变得瘫痪，无法说话，无法控制自己的动作或其他任何事情。
And we lived half the year still in Mongolia.
我们还在蒙古生活了半年。
Part of it was because the climate and the altitude were better for her situation.
部分原因是气候和海拔高度更适合她的情况。
It was very helpful for her.
这对她很有帮助。
But also, the people.
而且，人民。
There was a poor country.
从前有一个贫穷的国家。
The sidewalks are broken, everything’s not working.
人行道坏了，一切都不起作用。
But I would go out with her in a wheelchair alone, and I knew that every bump, some arm would pick her up and pick up the wheelchair and lift her over that and not make me do it.
但我会独自一人坐在轮椅上和她一起出去，我知道每一次碰撞，都会有一只手臂把她抱起来，拿起轮椅，把她举过轮椅，而不是让我这么做。
4:11:08 We could go to the opera and you had to go up this magnificent set of Soviet stairs to get to the opera.
我们可以去歌剧院，但你必须走上这座宏伟的苏联楼梯才能到达歌剧院。
We would go and I had no worries.
我们会去，我没有担心。
I knew two guys would come from one side, two guys from the other side.
我知道两个人会从一侧来，两个人会从另一侧来。
They would carry up and they do not say, “Excuse me.
他们会举起手来，但不会说：“对不起。
May I help you.” They do not wait for you to say thank you, nothing.
我可以帮助你吗？他们不会等你说谢谢，什么也没有。
They just do it and they walk away.
他们只是这么做了然后就走开了。
They have such respect.
他们有这样的尊重。
Singers would come there all the time to sing, to warm up the house for my wife.
歌手们会一直到那里唱歌，为我的妻子温暖房子。
And even dancers would come sometimes to dance or play the horse head fiddle, morin khuur, to play that, to warm up the house for her, to see how they treated a totally disabled person.
甚至舞者有时也会来跳舞或演奏马头琴，演奏马头琴，为她温暖房子，看看他们如何对待一个完全残疾人。
4:11:53 And if I was feeding my wife and anyone, anybody saw it, they would come and immediately take over and start feeding her in their place.
如果我正在喂我的妻子和任何人，任何人看到它，他们都会过来并立即接管并开始代替他们喂她。
Children would come up to her.
孩子们会向她走来。
In America, they’re often afraid that she’s somebody in a wheelchair.
在美国，他们常常担心她是一个坐在轮椅上的人。
They just look, they don’t know what to do.
他们只是看看，不知道该怎么做。
But over there, the children would always come to her, always.
但在那里，孩子们总是会来找她，总是。
They were very kind.
他们非常友善。
You just learn something about the people.
你只是了解一些关于人们的事情。
And living there in a country where out in the countryside, you come to a gare, you never ask for permission to go in.
生活在一个乡村的国家里，你来到一个车站，你从不请求许可才能进去。
You certainly don’t knock on the door frame.
你当然不会敲门框。
That’s no.
那不是。
That’s hugely offensive.
这是非常令人反感的。
4:12:29 And you ask, it’s like insulting the people like, “What?
你问，这就像侮辱人们一样，“什么？
You’re not a hospital people.
你不是医院的人。
I have to ask you for something.” No.
我得拜托你一件事。”不。
You walk in and you sit down and they fix food for you.
你走进去坐下，他们就会为你准备食物。
It’s an incredible thing.
这是一件不可思议的事情。
And these are the things that give me hope.
这些给了我希望。
It’s no institution in the world, not the big things, and not the pop culture and not all the platitudes.
它不是世界上的任何机构，不是大事，不是流行文化，也不是所有的陈词滥调。
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
Save us from the platitudes of modern life.
将我们从现代生活的陈词滥调中拯救出来。
Yeah.
是的。
4:13:00 True.
真的。
It’s the family that will fix tea for you in 2:00 in the morning because there was a flash flood and you got stuck and now you’re cold and wet and they build a fire and take care of you.
家人会在凌晨 2:00 为你泡茶，因为发生了山洪，你被困住了，现在你又冷又湿，他们生火并照顾你。
4:13:02 Or you just show up and you make camp somewhere if you have your own tent.
或者，如果您有自己的帐篷，您只需出现并在某个地方扎营即可。
And I swear, within one hour some child is going to be there with water and milk.
我发誓，一小时之内就会有一个孩子带着水和牛奶到那里。
You think, “Where did you come from?” But the mother sends them over, “Oh, there’s somebody over there in the forest.” They believe that they’re obligated to take care of one another.
你想：“你从哪里来？”但母亲却把他们叫了过来：“噢，森林里有人。”他们相信自己有义务互相照顾。
Anybody in your area, you take care of them and things like that.
你所在地区的任何人，你都会照顾他们之类的。
Individuals do give me hope.
个人确实给了我希望。
People one-by-one or a few at a time, even though I’m lost in the modern world.
一个一个地或一次几个人，尽管我迷失在现代世界中。
Well, I’m glad you find your way.
好吧，我很高兴你找到了自己的路。
4:13:48 You mentioned that your wife is no longer with us.
你提到你的妻子已经不在我们身边了。
What’s a favorite memory you have with her?
你和她最美好的回忆是什么？
Well, I could tell you a favorite picture is a lake we used to go to called Ogii nuur in the middle, and somebody, a very nice friend, took a picture of us towards the end, we’re just sitting there watching the sunset over the lake that we’ve been to many, many times in life.
好吧，我可以告诉你最喜欢的一张照片是我们曾经去过的一个叫做 Ogii nuur 的湖，位于中间，有人，一个非常好的朋友，在最后给我们拍了一张照片，我们只是坐在那里看着湖上的日落，我们一生中已经去过很多很多次了。
4:14:03 And we’re holding hands.
我们手牵着手。
She’s in the chair paralyzed, and we’re just sitting there staring off in the distance.
她瘫痪在椅子上，而我们只是坐在那里凝视着远方。
And that’s one of my favorites.
这是我最喜欢的之一。
But with my wife, I was just blessed with a good wife that was exciting.
但对于我的妻子来说，我很幸运拥有一个令人兴奋的好妻子。
She was the most beautiful woman I had ever met my whole life.
她是我一生中见过的最美丽的女人。
She was smart.
她很聪明。
She would talk to people about anything.
她会和人们谈论任何事情。
She talked about jazz or physics or art.
她谈论爵士乐、物理或艺术。
4:14:53 I mean, my life is so small and narrow.
我的意思是，我的生活是如此的狭小和狭窄。
But my wife, she’s the one who gave me a life.
但我的妻子，她给了我生命。
The truth is a very odd, people don’t believe sometimes, I failed English in college.
事实很奇怪，人们有时不相信，我在大学时英语不及格。
I barely got in college.
我好不容易才考上大学。
Nobody in my family.
我家里没有人。
I’d grown up with my grandparents, mostly the countryside, and they had third grade education.
我和祖父母一起长大，大部分时间在农村，他们受过三年级教育。
My father had seventh grade.
我父亲读七年级。
I went to live with him after the grandparents died and my mother.
祖父母和母亲去世后，我和他住在一起。
There was no big education there in the family.
家里没有受过高等教育。
But I somehow got to college.
但我不知何故考上了大学。
My father told me to go.
我父亲叫我走。
He didn’t want me to go to the war in Vietnam, so he volunteered to go because there was the rule that they couldn’t send two people from one family against their will.
他不想让我去越南打仗，所以他自愿去，因为有规定，他们不能违背自己的意愿派出一个家庭的两个人。
That was mainly designed to protect brothers, but he could go as the father and then I could go to college.
这主要是为了保护兄弟，但他可以当父亲，然后我可以上大学。
4:15:43 So, I got to college and I can’t say, “Oh, I was drinking and having a party and not serious.” No.
所以，我上了大学，我不能说：“哦，我当时喝酒、开派对，而且不是认真的。”不。
I was trying like hell to pass that course.
我拼命想通过那门课。
I failed English.
我英语不及格。
I failed it.
我失败了。
And this was just a huge shame to me.
这对我来说是一个巨大的耻辱。
In fact, after one year I was put on probation to be kicked out of the school.
事实上，一年后我被留校察看并被开除。
My grades were so low, overall.
总的来说，我的成绩很低。
And then, so it took me a long time to confess this to my wife after we met.
然后，所以我们见面后，我花了很长时间才向我的妻子坦白了这一点。
I met her.
我遇见了她。
I’d briefly had known her in high school, but just not well or anything.
我在高中时曾短暂认识过她，但只是不太熟。
But anyway, we met later and I told her, and she just looked at me.
但无论如何，我们后来见面了，我告诉了她，她只是看着我。
She said, “What does a professor know?
她说：“教授知道什么？
It’s just a professor.
这只是一个教授。
You can write anything you want.”
你可以写任何你想写的东西。”
4:16:26 And she had the power to make me believe everything.
她有能力让我相信一切。
She said, I don’t care what she said, I would believe it.
她说，不管她说什么，我都会相信。
I would say, “Yeah.
我会说：“是的。
That’s right.
没错。
That’s just a professor.
那只是一个教授。
Yeah.” And she inspired me.
是的。”她启发了我。
But she supported me all the way through graduate school.
但她一直支持我读完研究生。
She was taking some courses of her own and she was doing graduate work.
她正在修读自己的一些课程，并正在做研究生工作。
But she inspired me.
但她启发了我。
But she told me …
但她告诉我……
I said, “I want to write for more people than just for other scholars.
我说：“我想为更多的人写作，而不仅仅是为其他学者写作。
I’ve done this dissertation, a PhD, and it’s just dry as the Gobi Desert, and I didn’t know what to do.”
我已经完成了这篇论文，博士学位，它就像戈壁沙漠一样干燥，我不知道该怎么办。”
4:17:05 And she said, “Just tell the story to me, but I can’t see you while you tell it.
她说：“给我讲这个故事吧，但你讲故事的时候我看不到你。
You’re on the radio and I’m listening in my car driving somewhere.
你在听广播，而我在开车去某处的车里听。
Just tell the story to me.” And to this day, almost every word I write as always just tell the story to her the way that she would like it.
把故事讲给我听就行了。”直到今天，我写的几乎每一个字都一如既往地按照她喜欢的方式向她讲述故事。
And I always read the books to her even she couldn’t comprehend too much, but she just loved hearing the book, because it was mine.
我总是给她读这些书，即使她理解不了太多，但她就是喜欢听这本书，因为那是我的。
4:17:40 And in the last years of her life, I gave up the teaching and we went back to our original home in South Carolina and I said, “Okay.
在她生命的最后几年，我放弃了教学，我们回到了南卡罗来纳州的老家，我说：“好吧。
We’re just going to live here and watch the ocean and do things like that and just be worthless teenagers.” And my wife used to have episodes of clarity.
我们就住在这里，看大海，做类似的事情，就当个毫无价值的青少年。”我的妻子也曾经有过清醒的经历。
I have no idea what would cost.
我不知道要花多少钱。
It might be two hours.
可能要两个小时。
It might be seven or eight hours.
可能要七八个小时。
And we would talk a lot.
我们会聊很多。
And so, one time she said to me, she said, “This disease is going to take my life, but it’s taking your life.” She said, “You gave up teaching and you gave up writing.” And she said, “How do you expect me to die in peace if I know that you gave up everything to this disease?”
因此，有一次她对我说：“这种疾病会夺去我的生命，但它也会夺去你的生命。”她说：“你放弃了教学，也放弃了写作。”她说：“如果我知道你为了这种病放弃了一切，你怎么能指望我能平静地死去呢？”
4:18:36 She said, “You should write.” And so, every single day we sat together by the water, I mean by the window.
她说：“你应该写。”因此，我们每天都坐在水边，我是说窗边。
I moved it into the dining room overlooking the water.
我把它搬进了俯瞰水面的餐厅。
We sat there at the desk and she sat in her wheelchair next to me.
我们坐在办公桌前，她坐在轮椅上，坐在我旁边。
And sometimes we would play a little soft music in the background a little bit.
有时我们会在背景中播放一些轻柔的音乐。
And for the most part, she couldn’t talk.
大多数情况下，她无法说话。
But she liked to just sit there beside me working.
但她喜欢坐在我旁边工作。
And she knew that she was inspiration.
她知道她就是灵感。
She knew.
她知道。
She was the battery that kept me going.
她是让我继续前进的电池。
How on earth I ever had a wife like that?
我到底怎么会有这样的妻子？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
That’s beautiful, Jack.
太漂亮了，杰克。
4:19:17 That’s really beautiful.
那真是太美了。
I just hit the jackpot with her.
我刚刚和她一起中了大奖。
4:19:21 And I see so many people that get by and they even like each other or they’re friends or something.
我看到很多人都过得很好，他们甚至互相喜欢，或者他们是朋友什么的。
But in my life, there was one person.
但我的生命中，却有一个人。
I love my children.
我爱我的孩子们。
I still do.
我仍然这样做。
I love my grandchildren even I don’t understand them.
我爱我的孙子们，即使我不理解他们。
Yeah.
是的。
But there’s one person in my life, and that was my wife for 44 years, and her funeral was on our anniversary.
但我的生命中有一个人，那就是我结婚 44 年的妻子，她的葬礼是在我们结婚纪念日那天举行的。
4:19:42 That’s just the way life works out.
这就是生活的方式。
But I was very lucky, very lucky.
但我很幸运，非常幸运。
If the two of you lived and met a few centuries ago, I might be reading a history book about you conquering.
如果你们两个生活并认识在几个世纪前，我可能正在读一本关于你们征服的历史书。
No, no, no.
不，不，不。
And if she said, “You should do this,” maybe you would …
如果她说：“你应该这样做”，也许你会……
If she said it, I probably would’ve believed it.
如果她这么说，我可能会相信。
Exactly.
确切地。
4:20:16 Exactly.
确切地。
She was too busy enjoying the world.
她太忙于享受这个世界了。
4:20:17 And in her final, I could not ask her questions and I would not say, “Oh, you remember that” …
在她的期末考试中，我不能问她问题，我也不会说，“哦，你还记得这一点”……
No, I never would say that, because I knew she could remember.
不，我永远不会这么说，因为我知道她记得。
But when she was being restless or something in the night or I used to recite scenes from our life and just give the scene without saying, “Do you remember?” But the last night, I certainly didn’t know that she was going, but it was a rough night.
但当她在晚上焦躁不安或发生什么事情时，或者我常常背诵我们生活中的场景，只是简单地讲述场景，而不说：“你还记得吗？”但昨晚，我当然不知道她要走，但那是一个艰难的夜晚。
4:20:47 And we went back to the first night that we had in Moscow.
我们又回到了在莫斯科的第一个晚上。
We came in December in the winter, and the snow was so beautiful and white and the yellow lights shining on it.
我们是冬天12月来的，雪是那么美丽，洁白，上面闪烁着黄色的灯光。
And then the most beautiful night we went to the Bolshoi and she had this elegant blue wool coat from her grandmother from the 1920s with a huge, so ironic, it was a blue wolf, but it’s gray blue, like the Mongol has a gray blue collar, this huge collar.
然后最美丽的夜晚我们去了莫斯科大剧院，她从她的祖母那里得到了这件1920年代的优雅的蓝色羊毛大衣，上面有一个巨大的，讽刺的是，它是一只蓝狼，但它是灰蓝色的，就像蒙古人有一个灰蓝色的领子，这个巨大的领子。
She just looked like a movie star from the ’20s or something.
她看起来就像是二十世纪二十年代的电影明星。
4:21:32 And we went to see Maya Plisetskaya, and it was one of the most beautiful nights.
我们去看了玛雅·普利谢茨卡娅（Maya Plisetskaya），那是最美丽的夜晚之一。
But her last night, I told her that story again, of all the details, I’d gone through it many times with her coat from her grandmother whom she loved very much, and the snow and the yellow lights, and we arrived at night because of course the flight was late.
但她的最后一晚，我又给她讲了那个故事，所有的细节，我都跟她讲了很多遍，还有她深爱的祖母送的外套，还有雪和黄色的灯光，我们是晚上到达的，因为当然航班晚点了。
And then the next night going to the Bolshoi and all those beautiful things from Russia, that was it.
然后第二天晚上去莫斯科大剧院，欣赏所有来自俄罗斯的美丽事物，就是这样。
She was an inspiration.
她是一个灵感。
I have many, many nights or many days of great memories.
我有很多很多个夜晚或很多天的美好回忆。
You’re going to make me cry, Jack.
你会让我哭的，杰克。
Oh, no.
哦，不。
That was beautiful.
那真是太美了。
4:22:16 You’re a beautiful human being.
你是一个美丽的人。
It’s really an honor to talk to you.
与您交谈真的很荣幸。
This was such a fascinating journey through human history about one of the most impactful humans in human history.
这是关于人类历史上最有影响力的人之一的人类历史的一次令人着迷的旅程。
Well, I thank you very much.
嗯，我非常感谢你。
4:22:30 And the amount of research, when I realized how much research you had done, I felt like you’re going to know things I don’t know, and you’re going to trick me and pull something out, and I’m going to be shamed in front of the whole world.
还有大量的研究，当我意识到你做了多少研究时，我觉得你会知道我不知道的事情，你会欺骗我并拉出一些东西，我会在全世界面前感到羞耻。
There’s only one piece of research left is me going to Mongolia and riding there on the steppe, that would be incredible.
只剩下一项研究了，那就是我去蒙古，在草原上骑行，那将是令人难以置信的。
Come.
来。
4:22:52 Come.
来。
I will.
我会。
4:22:54 Thank you so much for talking today, Jack.
非常感谢你今天的发言，杰克。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Jack Weatherford.
感谢您收听与杰克·韦瑟福德的对话。
4:22:58 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description and consider subscribing to this channel.
为了支持这个播客，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商并考虑订阅这个频道。
And now, let me answer some questions and try to articulate some things I’ve been thinking about.
现在，让我回答一些问题并尝试阐明我一直在思考的一些事情。
If you’d like to submit questions including in audio and video form, go to lexfridman.com/ama.
如果您想以音频和视频形式提交问题，请访问 lexfridman.com/ama。
Or if you want to contact me for other reasons, go to lexfridman.com/contact.
或者，如果您出于其他原因想联系我，请访问 lexfridman.com/contact。
4:23:27 And now, allow me to make a few comments on the ever-evolving moral landscape of human civilization throughout our 10,000-year history.
现在，请允许我对人类文明一万年历史中不断演变的道德面貌谈几点看法。
I was listening to Dan Carlin’s excellent eye-opening five-and-a-half-hour episode of Hardcore History titled Human Resources.
我正在听丹·卡林 (Dan Carlin) 精彩的、令人大开眼界的五个半小时的《硬核历史》节目《人力资源》。
It covered the topic of slavery, the Atlantic slave trade to be exact.
它涵盖了奴隶制的主题，确切地说是大西洋奴隶贸易。
One of the lessons I took from this episode is that the long arc of history is full of atrocities, as we modern-day humans understand them with the wisdom of time and moral progress.
我从这一事件中得到的教训之一是，历史的长河充满了暴行，正如我们现代人类以时间和道德进步的智慧所理解的那样。
4:24:03 But during each period of history, as Dan documents, it was difficult for the majority of people to see just where the line between good and evil is.
但正如丹所记录的那样，在每个历史时期，大多数人都很难看出善与恶的界限在哪里。
We humans, after all, forever like to weave a story in which we are the good guys.
毕竟，我们人类永远喜欢编织一个我们都是好人的故事。
Listening to Dan discuss, and later myself, reading first-hand accounts of slaves, of torture, of rape, of separation of families is incomprehensibly heartbreaking.
听丹的讨论，以及后来我自己的讨论，阅读有关奴隶、酷刑、强奸和家庭离散的第一手资料，令人难以理解地心碎。
4:24:32 By the way in this topic, first-hand accounts of slavery could be read in Slave Narratives: A Folk History of Slavery in the United States from interviews with former slaves.
顺便说一句，在本主题中，有关奴隶制的第一手资料可以在《奴隶叙事：美国奴隶制的民间历史》中通过对前奴隶的采访来阅读。
I can recommend the book that I’ve been reading, which is Voices from Slavery: 100 Authentic Slave Narratives.
我可以推荐我一直在读的书，那就是《奴隶制的声音：100个真实的奴隶叙事》。
It all seems deeply and obviously wrong by today’s standards.
以今天的标准来看，这一切似乎都是严重且明显错误的。
But slavery was seen as normal through most of human history.
但在人类历史的大部分时间里，奴隶制被视为正常现象。
Thomas Jefferson, the man who wrote, “All men are created equal,” which I think is one of the most powerful lines in all of human history.
托马斯·杰斐逊（Thomas Jefferson）曾写下“人人生而平等”，我认为这是人类历史上最有力的诗句之一。
He himself was a slave owner, making him a fascinating case study of contradictions.
他本人是一名奴隶主，这使他成为矛盾研究的一个有趣的案例。
4:25:14 In fact, there’s evidence that Thomas Jefferson drew from Genghis Khan’s ideas about the importance of religious freedom, pulling as he did foundational ideas of human freedom from the jaws of deep history.
事实上，有证据表明托马斯·杰斐逊借鉴了成吉思汗关于宗教自由重要性的思想，就像他从深厚的历史中汲取了人类自由的基本思想一样。
And Dan, in his episode, documents these contradictions and complexities quite well.
丹在他的剧集中很好地记录了这些矛盾和复杂性。
The full range of human psychology involved, including how violations of basic human rights breed generational hatred.
涉及人类心理的方方面面，包括侵犯基本人权如何滋生代际仇恨。
This I think is an important lesson to understand.
我认为这是一个需要理解的重要教训。
4:25:45 The consequences of our moral failings can reverberate through decades, even centuries, and that is perhaps one of the values of studying history.
我们道德败坏的后果可能会持续数十年，甚至数百年，这也许是研究历史的价值之一。
It is laden with atrocities, but it also contains people who, while flawed, dare to rise in some way above the moral decrepitude of the day to try to build a foundation of a slightly better future world.
它充满了暴行，但也包含了那些虽然有缺陷但敢于以某种方式超越当今道德败坏的人，试图为一个稍微更好的未来世界奠定基础的人。
As MLK Jr. put it, “The arc of moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.”
正如小马丁·路德·金所说：“道德宇宙的弧线很长，但它会趋向正义。”
4:26:18 And now, please allow me to say a few words about Gaza, Israel and Palestine.
现在，请允许我谈谈加沙、以色列和巴勒斯坦。
I’m not sure I’m eloquent enough or know quite the right words to express what I’m feeling.
我不确定我的口才是否足够好，或者是否知道正确的词语来表达我的感受。
But let me try.
但让我试试。
I think what is happening in Gaza is an atrocity, and I think that the Israeli government is directly responsible for it.
我认为加沙发生的事情是一场暴行，我认为以色列政府对此负有直接责任。
And to the degree the US government is assisting the Israeli government in this, which I believe it currently is.
美国政府在这方面正在协助以色列政府，我认为目前就是如此。
It needs to stop immediately.
它需要立即停止。
For me as an American makes me sick to know that my government has any role in this atrocity.
对我来说，作为一个美国人，我知道我的政府在这场暴行中扮演了任何角色，这让我感到恶心。
This needs to stop.
这需要停止。
4:27:04 Yes.
是的。
There’s geopolitical and military complexity, nuance, and historical context that I’m told by some so-called experts that one must understand.
一些所谓的专家告诉我，人们必须理解地缘政治和军事的复杂性、细微差别和历史背景。
And perhaps they are smarter than me.
也许他们比我聪明。
But like mentioned before, unlike the more complexity of deep history that I’ve often spoken about from the Roman Empire to the Atlantic slave trade, this is the 21st century.
但就像之前提到的，与我经常谈到的从罗马帝国到大西洋奴隶贸易的更复杂的深层历史不同，现在是 21 世纪。
This is today.
这是今天。
In this, the 21st century, I see things quite simply and clearly.
在这个21世纪，我看事情非常简单和清晰。
4:27:39 To me, the death of a child is a tragedy.
对我来说，孩子的死亡是一场悲剧。
It doesn’t matter what their skin color is, what their religion is, or what plot of land they call home.
他们的肤色、宗教信仰或他们称之为家的土地并不重要。
In my view, they are all equal, and the death of each child is a tragedy.
在我看来，他们都是平等的，每个孩子的死亡都是一场悲剧。
Hamas did a definitively evil act on October 7th, brutally murdering over 1,000 civilians.
10 月 7 日，哈马斯犯下了绝对邪恶的罪行，残酷杀害了 1000 多名平民。
But now, the acts of war conducted by the Israeli government have led to the death of over 60,000 people in Gaza, likely over 80,000 people, of which at least 17,000 are children, 17,000.
但现在，以色列政府的战争行为已导致加沙6万多人死亡，可能超过8万人，其中至少1.7万人是儿童，1.7万人。
I’m not smart enough to know the path to peace and flourishing of all the peoples in the region.
我不够聪明，无法了解该地区所有人民的和平与繁荣之路。
But I do know that what has been happening in Gaza cannot be the way.
但我确实知道加沙发生的事情不可能是这样的。
4:28:41 Suffering at this kind of scale breeds generational hate that leads to more evil in the world, not less, to more destruction, to more suffering.
这种规模的苦难会滋生代际仇恨，从而导致世界上更多的邪恶，而不是更少，带来更多的破坏和更多的痛苦。
This has to stop.
这必须停止。
Two years ago, I spoke with many Palestinians in the West Bank on camera and off.
两年前，我与约旦河西岸的许多巴勒斯坦人进行了镜头或私下交谈。
There’s a video of it up if you want to hear their voices for yourselves.
如果您想亲自听听他们的声音，可以观看视频。
It was a deeply moving experience for me, and I’m grateful for it.
这对我来说是一次非常感人的经历，我对此心怀感激。
In the future, I hope to find a way to talk to people in Gaza.
未来，我希望找到一种方式与加沙人民交谈。
I still think it’s valuable to talk to leaders, historians, soldiers, activists from all perspectives.
我仍然认为从各个角度与领导人、历史学家、士兵、活动人士交谈是有价值的。
4:29:25 But the most powerful and moving conversations for me on mic and off have always been with everyday people.
但对我来说，无论麦克风上还是麦克风外，最有力、最感人的对话始终是与普通人的对话。
This always felt like where the truth is, the deeper truth of life, of pain, fear, of hope, and I still have hope.
这总是让人感觉真理就在哪里，生命的更深层次的真理，痛苦、恐惧、希望，而我仍然有希望。
I believe we humans are good at the core, and I know we’ll find our way.
我相信我们人类本质上是善良的，我知道我们会找到自己的出路。
Thank you for listening.
感谢您的聆听。
I love you all.
我爱你们。
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