格雷戈里·奥尔德雷特：罗马帝国——古罗马的兴衰

Rome always wins because even if they lose battles, they go to the Italian allies and half citizens and raise new armies.

罗马总是获胜，因为即使他们输掉了战斗，他们也会去找意大利盟友和半公民并组建新的军队。

00:00 So how do you beat them?

那么你如何击败他们呢？

He can never raise that many troops himself.

他自己永远不可能调集那么多军队。

And Hannibal, I think correctly, figures out the one way to maybe defeat Rome is to cut them away from their allies.

我认为汉尼拔正确地认为，击败罗马的一种方法就是切断他们与盟友的联系。

Well, how do you do this?

那么，你怎么做呢？

Hannibal’s plan is, “I’m not going to wait and fight the Romans in Spain or North Africa.

汉尼拔的计划是：“我不会等待在西班牙或北非与罗马人作战。

I’m going to invade Italy.

我要入侵意大利。

I’m going to strike at the heart of this growing Roman Empire.

我要攻击这个不断发展的罗马帝国的核心。

And my hope is that if I can win a couple big battles against Rome in Italy, the Italians will want their freedom back and they’ll rebel from Rome and maybe even join me because most people who have been conquered want their freedom back, so this is a reasonable plan.”

我的希望是，如果我能在意大利赢得几场对抗罗马的大战，意大利人就会想要夺回自由，他们会反抗罗马，甚至可能会加入我的行列，因为大多数被征服的人都希望夺回自由，所以这是一个合理的计划。”

00:51 Hannibal famously crosses the Alps with elephants.

汉尼拔驾驭大象穿越阿尔卑斯山而闻名。

Dramatic stuff.

戏剧性的东西。

Nobody expects him to do this.

没有人期望他这样做。

Nobody thinks you can do this.

没有人认为你能做到这一点。

Shows up in Northern Italy.

出现在意大利北部。

Romans send an army.

罗马人派出一支军队。

Hannibal massacres them.

汉尼拔屠杀了他们。

He is a military genius.

他是一位军事天才。

Rome takes a year, raises a second army.

罗马花了一年时间，组建了第二支军队。

We know this story, sends it against Hannibal.

我们知道这个故事，并将其发送给汉尼拔。

Hannibal wipes them out.

汉尼拔消灭了他们。

01:12 Rome gets clever this time.

罗马这次聪明了。

They say, “Okay, Hannibal’s different.

他们说：“好吧，汉尼拔不一样。

We’re going to take two years, raise two armies and send them both out at the same time against Hannibal.” They do this, and this is the Battle of Cannae, which is one of the most famous battles in history.

我们将花两年时间，组建两支军队，同时派出两支军队对抗汉尼拔。”他们这样做了，这就是坎尼战役，这是历史上最著名的战役之一。

Hannibal is facing this army of 80, 000 Romans about, and he comes up with strategy called double envelopment.

汉尼拔面对这支大约80、000罗马人的军队，他想出了双重包围的策略。

I mean, we can go into it later if you want, but it’s this famous strategy where he basically sucks the Romans in, surrounds them on all sides.

我的意思是，如果你愿意的话，我们可以稍后再讨论，但正是这个著名的策略，他基本上将罗马人吸了进去，从四面八方包围了他们。

And in one afternoon at the Battle of Cannae, Hannibal kills about 60,000 Romans.

一天下午，汉尼拔在坎尼战役中杀死了大约 60,000 名罗马人。

Now, just to put that in perspective, that’s more Romans hacked to death in one afternoon with swords than Americans died in 20 years in Vietnam.

现在，从长远来看，罗马人在一个下午被刀剑砍死的人数比美国人在越南 20 年内死亡的人数还多。

The following is a conversation with Gregory Aldrete, a historian specializing in ancient Rome and military history.

以下是与专门研究古罗马和军事史的历史学家格雷戈里·阿尔德雷特的对话。

02:03 This is the Lex Fridman Podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。

To support it, please check out our in the description.

要支持它，请查看我们的说明。

And now, dear friends, here’s Gregory Aldrete.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是格雷戈里·奥尔德雷特。

02:23 What do you think is the big difference between the ancient world and the modern world?

您认为古代世界和现代世界最大的区别是什么？

Well, the easy answer, the one you often get is technology, and obviously, there’s huge differences in technology between the ancient world and today.

嗯，最简单的答案是，你经常得到的答案是技术，显然，古代世界和今天的技术存在巨大差异。

02:28 But I think some of the more interesting stuff is a little bit more amorphous things, more structural things.

但我认为一些更有趣的东西是一些更加无定形的东西，更加结构化的东西。

I would say, first of all, childhood mortality.

我想说，首先是儿童死亡率。

In the ancient world, and this is true, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, really anybody up until about the industrial Revolution, about 30 to 40% of kids died before they hit puberty.

在古代世界，确实如此，希腊人、罗马人、埃及人，甚至工业革命之前的任何人，大约 30% 到 40% 的孩子在进入青春期之前就死亡了。

02:57 I mean, put yourself in the place of average inhabitant of the ancient world.

我的意思是，将自己置于古代世界的普通居民的位置。

If you were an ancient person, three or four of your kids probably would’ve died.

如果你是一个古代人，你的孩子可能会死掉三四个。

You would’ve buried your children.

你会埋葬你的孩子。

And nowadays, we think of that as an unusual thing, and just psychologically, that’s a huge thing.

如今，我们认为这是一件不寻常的事情，而且从心理上来说，这是一件大事。

You would’ve seen multiple of your siblings die.

你会看到你的多个兄弟姐妹死去。

If you were a woman, for example, if you were lucky enough to make it to let’s say age 13, you probably would have to give birth four or five times in order just to keep the population from dying out.

例如，如果你是一名女性，如果你足够幸运，活到 13 岁，你可能需要生育四到五次才能避免人口灭绝。

Those kind of grim mortality statistics, I think, are a huge difference psychologically between the ancient world and the modern.

我认为，这些严峻的死亡率统计数据在心理上体现了古代世界和现代世界之间的巨大差异。

But fundamentally, do you think human nature changed much?

但从根本上来说，你认为人性发生了很大变化吗？

03:37 Do you think the same elements of what we see today, fear, greed, love, hope, optimism and the cynicism, the underlying forces that result in war, all of that, permeates human history?

你认为我们今天看到的同样的元素，恐惧、贪婪、爱、希望、乐观和愤世嫉俗，以及导致战争的潜在力量，所有这些，都渗透到了人类历史中吗？

Crude answer, yes.

粗略的回答是，是的。

03:56 I think human nature is roughly constant.

我认为人性大致是恒定的。

And for me, as an ancient historian, the kind of documents that I really like dealing with are not the traditional literary sources, but they’re the things that give us those little glimpse into everyday life.

对我来说，作为一名古代历史学家，我真正喜欢处理的文献不是传统的文学资料，而是那些让我们对日常生活有一些了解的东西。

Stuff like tombstones or graffiti or just something that survives on a scrap of parchment that records a financial transaction.

像墓碑或涂鸦之类的东西，或者只是在一张记录金融交易的羊皮纸上幸存下来的东西。

Whenever I read some of those, I’ll have this moment of feeling, ” Oh, I know exactly how that person felt.” Here across 2000 years of time, completely different cultures, I have this spark of sympathy with someone from antiquity.

每当我读到其中的一些内容时，我都会有这样的感觉：“哦，我完全知道那个人的感受。”跨越2000年的时光，完全不同的文化，我对古代的某个人产生了同情的火花。

04:40 I think, as a historian, the way you begin to understand an alien, a foreign culture, which is what these cultures are, is to look for those little moments of sympathy.

我认为，作为一名历史学家，你开始理解外星人、外国文化的方式，也就是这些文化的本质，就是寻找那些同情的小时刻。

But on the other hand, there’s ways in which ancient cultures are wildly different from us.

但另一方面，古代文化在某些方面与我们截然不同。

You also look for those moments where you just think, “How the hell could these people have done that?

你也会寻找那些你只是想的时刻，“这些人到底是怎么做到的？

I just don’t understand how they could have thought or acted in this way.” It’s lining up those moments of sympathy and kind of disconnection that I think is when you begin to start to understand a foreign culture or an ancient culture.

我只是不明白他们怎么会这样思考或这样做。”我认为，当你开始了解外国文化或古代文化时，这些同情和脱节的时刻就会排列起来。

I love the idea of assembling the big picture from the details and the little pieces, because that is the thing that makes up life.

我喜欢从细节和小片段中拼凑出大局的想法，因为这就是构成生活的东西。

05:14 The big picture is nothing without the details.

没有细节，大局就毫无意义。

Yep, yep, and those details would bring it to life.

是的，是的，这些细节会让它变得栩栩如生。

05:23 I mean, it’s not the grand sweep of things.

我的意思是，这并不是什么大事。

It’s seeing those little hopes and fears.

它看到了那些小小的希望和恐惧。

Another thing that I think is a huge difference between the modern world and the ancient is just basically everybody’s a farmer.

我认为现代世界和古代世界之间的巨大差异是基本上每个人都是农民。

Everybody’s a small family farmer, and we forget this.

每个人都是小家庭农民，我们忘记了这一点。

05:42 I was just writing a lecture for my next Great Courses course, and I was writing about farming in the ancient world.

我正在为我的下一门伟大课程写一篇演讲，我正在写有关古代世界农业的文章。

I was really thinking if we were to write a realistic textbook of let’s say the Roman Empire, nine out of 10 chapters should be details of what it was like to be a small-time family farmer, because that’s what 90% of the people in the ancient world did.

我真的在想，如果我们要写一本关于罗马帝国的现实教科书，那么十分之九的章节应该是关于小家庭农民的生活细节，因为古代世界 90% 的人都是这么做的。

They weren’t soldiers, they weren’t priests, they weren’t kings, they weren’t authors, they weren’t artists.

他们不是士兵，他们不是牧师，他们不是国王，他们不是作家，他们不是艺术家。

They were small-town family farmers, and they lived in a little village.

他们是小镇家庭农民，住在一个小村庄里。

They never traveled 20 miles from that village.

他们从未离开过那个村庄 20 英里。

They were born there.

他们出生在那里。

They married somebody from there.

他们与那里的一个人结婚了。

They raised kids.

他们抚养孩子。

They mucked around in the dirt for a couple decades and they died.

他们在泥土里混了几十年，然后就死了。

They never saw a battle.

他们从未见过战斗。

They never saw a work of art.

他们从未见过艺术品。

They never saw a philosopher.

他们从未见过哲学家。

They never took part in any of the things we define as being history.

他们从未参与过任何我们定义为历史的事情。

So that’s what life should be, and that’s representative.

这就是生活应该有的样子，这就是代表性的。

Nevertheless, it is the emperors and the philosophers and the artists and the warriors who carve history.

然而，书写历史的是皇帝、哲学家、艺术家和武士。

And it is the important stuff.

这是重要的事情。

06:43 I mean, that’s true.

我的意思是，那是真的。

There’s a reason we focus on that.

我们关注这一点是有原因的。

That’s a good reminder though.

不过，这是一个很好的提醒。

06:48 If we want to truly empathize and understand what life was like, we have to represent it fully.

如果我们想真正体会和理解生活是什么样的，我们就必须充分地再现它。

And I would say let’s not forget them.

我想说我们不要忘记他们。

06:56 Let’s not forget what life was like for 80, 90% of the people in the ancient world, the ones we don’t talk about, because that’s important too.

我们不要忘记古代世界 80%、90% 的人的生活是什么样的，我们不谈论这些人，因为这也很重要。

The Roman Empire is widely considered to be the most powerful, influential, and impactful empire in human history.

罗马帝国被广泛认为是人类历史上最强大、最有影响力的帝国。

07:06 What are some reasons for that?

有哪些原因？

Yeah.

是的。

07:18 I mean, Rome has been hugely influential, I think, just because of the image.

我的意思是，我认为罗马之所以具有巨大的影响力，只是因为它的形象。

I mean, there’s all these practical ways.

我的意思是，有所有这些实用的方法。

I mean, the words I’m using to speak with you today, 30% are direct from Latin.

我的意思是，我今天和你们说话时使用的词语，30% 直接来自拉丁语。

Another 30% are from Latin descended languages.

另外 30% 来自拉丁语后裔。

Our law codes, I mean, our habits, our holidays, everything comes fairly directly from the ancient world.

我们的法律法规，我的意思是，我们的习惯，我们的假期，一切都直接来自古代世界。

But the image of Rome, at least again in Western civilization, has really been the dominant image of a successful empire.

但罗马的形象，至少在西方文明中，确实是一个成功帝国的主导形象。

I think that’s what gives it a lot of its fascination, this idea that, “Oh, it was this great, powerful, culturally influential empire,” and there’s a lot of other empires.

我认为这就是它的魅力所在，这种想法是“哦，这是一个伟大、强大、具有文化影响力的帝国”，而且还有很多其他帝国。

I mean, we could talk about ancient China, which arguably was just as big as Rome, just as culturally sophisticated, lasted about the same amount of time.

我的意思是，我们可以谈论古代中国，可以说它和罗马一样大，文化也一样复杂，持续的时间也差不多。

But at least in Western civilization, Rome is the paradigm.

但至少在西方文明中，罗马是典范。

08:14 But Rome is a little schizophrenic in that it’s both the empire when it was ruled by emperors, which is one kind of model, and it’s the Roman Republic when it was a pseudo-democracy, which is a different model.

但罗马有点精神分裂，它既是皇帝统治时的帝国，这是一种模式，又是伪民主时的罗马共和国，这是另一种模式。

It’s interesting how some later civilizations tend to either focus on one or the other of those.

有趣的是，一些后来的文明倾向于关注其中一个或另一个。

The United States, Revolutionary France, they were very obsessed with the Roman Republic as a model.

美国、大革命的法国，他们非常迷恋罗马共和国作为榜样。

But other people, Mussolini, Hitler, Napoleon, they were very obsessed with the Empire.

但其他人，墨索里尼，希特勒，拿破仑，他们非常迷恋帝国。

Victorian Britain as a model.

维多利亚时代的英国为典范。

08:48 Rome itself has different aspects.

罗马本身有不同的方面。

But what I think is actually another big difference between the modern world and the ancient is our relationship with the past.

但我认为现代世界和古代世界之间的另一个巨大区别实际上是我们与过去的关系。

One of the keys to understanding all of Roman history is to understand that this was a people who were obsessed with the past and for whom the past had power, not just as something inspirational, but it actually dictated what you would do in your daily life.

理解整个罗马历史的关键之一是要了解这是一个痴迷于过去的民族，对他们来说过去具有力量，不仅是鼓舞人心的东西，而且它实际上决定了你在日常生活中会做什么。

Today, especially in the United States, we don’t have much of a relationship with the past.

今天，尤其是在美国，我们与过去没有太多关系。

We see ourselves as free agents just floating along, not tethered to what came before.

我们将自己视为自由行动者，只是随波逐流，不受过去的束缚。

09:28 The classical story that I sometimes tell in my classes to illustrate this is Rome started out as a monarchy.

我有时会在课堂上讲一个经典故事来说明这一点：罗马最初是一个君主制国家。

They had kings.

他们有国王。

They were kind of unhappy with their kings.

他们对他们的国王有些不满。

Around 500 BC, they held a revolution and they kicked out the kings, and one of the guys who played a key role in this was a man named Lucius Junius Brutus.

公元前500年左右，他们举行了一场革命，驱逐了国王，而在这场革命中发挥关键作用的人之一就是卢修斯·尤尼乌斯·布鲁图斯。

500 years later, 500 years down the road, a guy comes along, Julius Caesar, who starts to act like a king.

500 年后，500 年后，一个人出现了，朱利叶斯·凯撒，他开始表现得像一个国王。

If you have trouble with kings in Roman society, who are you going to call?

如果你与罗马社会的国王有麻烦，你会打电话给谁？

Somebody named Brutus.

一个叫布鲁图斯的人。

Now as it happens, there is a guy named Brutus in Roman society at this time, who is one of Julius Caesar’s best friends, Marcus Junius Brutus.

碰巧的是，此时的罗马社会有一个名叫布鲁图斯的人，他是尤利乌斯·凯撒最好的朋友之一，马库斯·尤尼乌斯·布鲁图斯。

Now, before I go further with the story, and I think you probably know where it ends, I talk about how important your ancestors are in Roman culture.

现在，在我进一步讲述这个故事之前，我想你可能知道故事的结局，我先谈谈你的祖先在罗马文化中的重要性。

I mean, if you went to an aristocratic Roman’s house and opened the front door and walked in, the first thing you would see would be a big wooden cabinet.

我的意思是，如果你去罗马贵族的房子，打开前门走进去，你首先看到的将是一个大木柜。

If you open that up, what you would see would be row after row of wax death masks.

如果你打开它，你会看到一排又一排的蜡质死亡面具。

When a Roman aristocrat died, they literally put hot wax on his face and made an impression of his face at that moment.

当一位罗马贵族去世时，他们会在他的脸上涂上热蜡，并在那一刻留下他的脸的印记。

They hung these in a big cabinet right inside the front door.

他们把它们挂在前门内的一个大柜子里。

Every time you entered your house, you were literally staring at the faces of your ancestors.

每次你走进家门，你都会盯着祖先的脸。

10:53 Every child in that family would have obsessively memorized every accomplishment of every one of those ancestors.

那个家庭中的每个孩子都会痴迷地记住每一位祖先的每一项成就。

He would’ve known their career, what offices they held, what battles they fought in, what they did.

他会了解他们的职业生涯，他们担任过什么职位，他们参加过什么战斗，他们做了什么。

When somebody new in the family died, there would be a big funeral and they would talk about all the things their ancestors had did.

当家里有新成员去世时，就会举行盛大的葬礼，他们会谈论祖先所做过的所有事情。

The kids in the family would literally take out those masks, tie them onto their own faces, and wear them in the funeral procession.

家里的孩子们会把这些面具拿出来，绑在自己的脸上，然后在送葬队伍中戴上。

You were wearing the face of your ancestors.

你戴着你祖先的脸。

So you as an individual weren’t important, you were just the latest iteration of that family, and there was enormous weight, huge weight to live up to the deeds of your ancestors.

所以你作为一个个体并不重要，你只是这个家族的最新一代，有巨大的重量，巨大的重量来实现你祖先的事迹。

The Romans were absolutely obsessed with the past, especially with your own family.

罗马人对过去非常着迷，尤其是对自己的家庭。

Every Roman kid who is let’s say an aristocratic family could tell you every one of his ancestors back centuries.

每个罗马贵族家庭的孩子都可以告诉你他几个世纪前的每一个祖先。

I can’t go beyond my grandparents, I don’t even know, but that’s maybe 100 years.

我无法超越我的祖父母，我什至不知道，但这可能是100年。

It’s a completely different attitude towards the past.

这是对过去完全不同的态度。

And the level of celebration that we have now of the ancestors, even the ones we can name, is not as intense as it was in Roman times.

我们现在对祖先的庆祝程度，即使是我们能说出名字的祖先，也不像罗马时代那么强烈。

No, no.

不，不。

11:59 I mean, it was obsessive and oppressive.

我的意思是，这是强迫性和压抑的。

It determined what you did.

它决定了你做了什么。

Oppressive, oh.

压抑哦。

Yes.

是的。

12:05 Because there’s that weight for you to act like your ancestors did.

因为你有足够的重量去像你的祖先那样行事。

Not to speak sort of philosophically, but do you think it was limiting to the way that society develops to be deeply constrained by the-

不是从哲学角度来说，而是你认为这限制了社会发展的方式，深深地受到——

Yes.

是的。

12:18 Absolutely.

绝对地。

Limiting in a good way or a bad way, you think?

您认为以好的方式限制还是以坏的方式限制？

Well, like everything, it’s a little of both.

嗯，就像所有事情一样，两者兼而有之。

12:21 But the bad, on the one hand, it gives them enormous strength and it gives them this enormous connection.

但坏的一方面，它给了他们巨大的力量，给了他们巨大的联系。

It gives them guidance.

它为他们提供指导。

But the negative is what’s interesting, is it makes the Romans extremely traditional minded and extremely conservative, and I mean conservative in the sense of resistant to change.

但消极的是有趣的是，它使罗马人思想极其传统且极其保守，我指的是抵制变革意义上的保守。

12:40 In the late Republic, which we’ll probably talk about later, Rome desperately needed to change certain things, but it was a society that did things the way the ancestors did it, and they didn’t make some obvious changes, which might have saved their Republic.

在共和国后期，我们可能会在稍后讨论，罗马迫切需要改变某些事情，但这是一个按照祖先的方式做事的社会，他们没有做出一些明显的改变，这可能挽救了他们的共和国。

That’s the downside is that it locks you into something and you can’t change.

这样做的缺点是它会把你锁在某些东西里，你无法改变。

12:58 But to get us back to the Brutus’s, 500 years after that first Brutus got rid of kings, Julius Caesar starts to act like a king, one of his best friends is Marcus Junius Brutus.

但让我们回到布鲁图斯的时代，在布鲁图斯第一次摆脱国王 500 年后，朱利叶斯·凯撒开始表现得像一个国王，他最好的朋友之一是马库斯·朱尼厄斯·布鲁图斯。

And literally, in the middle of the night, people go to Brutus’s house and write graffiti on it that says, “Remember your ancestor?” And another one is, I think, “You’re no real Brutus.” And at that point, he really has no choice.

事实上，在半夜，人们会去布鲁图斯的房子，在上面写下涂鸦，上面写着：“还记得你的祖先吗？”我想，另一个问题是，“你不是真正的布鲁图斯。”而到了这个时候，他就真的没有选择了。

He forms a conspiracy.

他策划了一个阴谋。

On the Ides of March 44 BC, he and 23 other senators take daggers, stick them in Julius Caesar, and kill him for acting like a king.

公元前 44 年 3 月的十五日，他和其他 23 名参议员拿起匕首，将其插在朱利叶斯·凯撒身上，并因他表现得像国王而杀死了他。

The way I always pose this to my students is, “How many of you would stick a knife in your best friend because of what your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather did?”

我总是向我的学生提出这个问题的方式是：“你们中有多少人会因为你们的曾祖父所做的事情而向自己最好的朋友插刀？”

That’s commitment.

这就是承诺。

That’s the power of the past.

这就是过去的力量。

13:50 That’s a society where the past isn’t just influential, but it dictates what you do.

在这个社会里，过去不仅具有影响力，而且还决定着你的行为。

And that concept, I think, is very alien to us today.

我认为这个概念对今天的我们来说非常陌生。

We can’t imagine murdering our best friend because of what some incredibly distant ancestor did 500 years ago.

我们无法想象因为某个远古祖先在 500 年前所做的事情而谋杀我们最好的朋友。

But to Brutus, there is no choice.

但对于布鲁图斯来说，别无选择。

You have to do that.

你必须这样做。

14:11 A lot of societies have this power of the past.

许多社会都拥有这种过去的力量。

Today, not so much, but some still do.

今天，情况已经不那么严重了，但有些人仍然这样做。

About a decade ago, I was in Serbia and I was talking to some of the people there about the breakup of Yugoslavia and some of the wars that had taken place where people turned against their neighbors, basically murdered people they had lived next to for decades.

大约十年前，我在塞尔维亚，和那里的一些人谈论南斯拉夫的解体，以及发生的一些战争，人们反对他们的邻居，基本上谋杀了他们生活了几十年的人。

When I was talking to them, some of them actually brought up things like, “Oh, well, it was justified because in this battle in 12 whatever, they did this.” And I was thinking, “Wow, you’re citing something from 800 years ago to justify your actions today.” That’s a modern person who still understands the power of the past, or maybe is crippled by it, is another way to view it.

当我和他们交谈时，他们中的一些人实际上提出了诸如“哦，好吧，这是合理的，因为在 12 场战斗中，他们这样做了。”我在想，“哇，你引用了 800 年前的事情来证明你今天的行为是正确的。”这是一个仍然了解过去的力量的现代人，或者可能被过去的力量所削弱，这是看待它的另一种方式。

This is an interesting point and an interesting perspective to remember about the way the Romans thought, especially in the context of how power is transferred, whether it’s hereditary or not, which changes throughout Roman history.

这是一个有趣的观点和有趣的视角，值得记住罗马人的思维方式，特别是在权力如何转移的背景下，无论是否世袭，这在整个罗马历史中都在变化。

14:55 It’s interesting.

这很有趣。

It’s interesting to remember that, the value of the ancestors

记住祖先的价值是很有趣的

Yep, and just the weight of tradition.

是的，还有传统的分量。

The weight of tradition.

传统的重量。

For the Romans, the mos maiorum is this Latin term, which means the way the ancestors did it, and it’s kind of their word for tradition.

对于罗马人来说，mos maiorum 是一个拉丁词，意思是祖先的做法，也是他们传统的意思。

15:16 For them, tradition is what your forefathers and mothers did, and you have to follow that example, and you have to live up to that.

对他们来说，传统就是你的祖先和母亲所做的事情，你必须效仿这个榜样，你必须不辜负这个榜样。

Does that mean that class mobility was difficult?

这是否意味着阶级流动很困难？

15:31 If your ancestors were farmers, there was a major constraint on remaining a farmer, essentially.

如果你的祖先是农民，那么本质上，保持农民身份就会受到很大的限制。

I mean, the Romans all like to think of themselves as farmers, even filthy rich Romans.

我的意思是，罗马人都喜欢将自己视为农民，甚至是肮脏富有的罗马人。

15:40 It was just their national identity is the citizen soldier farmer thing.

这只是他们的国民身份是公民士兵农民的事情。

But it did, among the aristocrats, the people who kind of ran things, yeah, it was hard to break into that if you didn’t have famous ancestors.

但确实如此，在贵族中，在那些管理事物的人中，是的，如果你没有著名的祖先，就很难闯入这一领域。

It was such a big deal that there was a specific term called a novus homo, a new man, for someone who was the first person in their family to get elected to a major office in the Roman government because that was a weird and different and new thing.

这是一件大事，以至于有一个特殊的术语叫做“novushomo”，即“新人”，指的是家族中第一个当选罗马政府重要职位的人，因为这是一件奇怪的、不同的、新鲜的事情。

You actually designated them by this special term.

您实际上用这个特殊术语指定了它们。

Yeah, you’re absolutely right.

是的，你说得完全正确。

If we may, let us zoom out, it would help me, maybe it’ll help the audience to look at the different periods that we’ve been talking about.

如果可以的话，让我们把镜头拉远，这会对我有帮助，也许会帮助观众了解我们一直在谈论的不同时期。

16:19 You mentioned the Republic.

你提到了共和国。

You mentioned maybe when it took a form of empire and maybe there was the age of kings.

你提到也许当它采取某种形式的帝国时，也许有国王的时代。

What are the different periods of this Roman, let’s call it, what?

这个罗马的不同时期是什么，我们称之为什么？

The big-

大的——

Roman history.

罗马历史。

Roman history.

罗马历史。

16:38 And a lot of people just call that whole period Roman Empire loosely, right?

很多人只是宽松地称整个时期为罗马帝国，对吧？

Yeah.

是的。

Maybe can you speak to the different periods?

也许你能谈谈不同时期的情况？

Yes, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

16:45 Conventionally, Roman history is divided into three chronological periods.

按照惯例，罗马历史分为三个年代。

The first of those is from 773 BC to 509 BC, which is called the monarchy.

第一个时期是公元前773年至公元前509年，称为君主制。

All the periods get their names from the form of government.

所有时期的名称均源自政府形式。

This is the earliest phase of Roman history.

这是罗马历史的最早阶段。

It’s when Rome is mostly just a fairly undistinguished little collection of mud huts, honestly, just like dozens of other cities of little mud huts in Italy.

老实说，那时候的罗马基本上只是一个相当不起眼的小泥屋集合，就像意大利其他几十个有小泥屋的城市一样。

That early phase, about 750 to around 500 BC is the monarchy.

早期阶段，即公元前 750 年至 500 年左右，是君主制时期。

They’re ruled by kings.

他们由国王统治。

17:20 Then there’s this revolution, they kick out the kings, they become a Republic.

然后发生了这场革命，他们赶走了国王，建立了共和国。

That lasts from 500 BC roughly to about either 31 or 27 BC, depending what date you pick as most important, but about 500 years.

这大约从公元前 500 年持续到公元前 31 或 27 年，具体取决于你选择的最重要的日期，但大约有 500 年。

The Republic is when they have a Republican form of government.

共和国是指他们拥有共和政体。

Some people idealize this as Rome’s greatest period, and the big thing in that period is Rome first expands to conquer all of Italy in the first 250 years of that 500 year stretch.

有些人将其理想化为罗马最伟大的时期，而那个时期的大事是罗马在这 500 年的前 250 年里首先扩张并征服了整个意大利。

And then, the second 250 years, they conquer all the Mediterranean basin roughly.

然后，第二个250年，他们大致征服了整个地中海盆地。

This is this time of enormous successful Roman conquest and expansion.

这是罗马征服和扩张取得巨大成功的时期。

17:59 And then, you have another switch up and they become ruled by emperors.

然后，你再进行一次切换，他们就会由皇帝统治。

Back to the idea of one guy in charge, though the Romans try to pretend it’s not like a king, it’s something else.

回到一个负责人的想法，尽管罗马人试图假装它不像国王，但它是另一回事。

Anyway, we can get into that.

不管怎样，我们可以进入这个话题。

But they’re very touchy about kings, so they have emperors.

但他们对国王非常敏感，所以他们有皇帝。

Roman Empire, the first emperor is Augustus.

罗马帝国的第一位皇帝是奥古斯都。

Starts off as Octavian, switches his name to Augustus when he becomes emperor.

一开始是屋大维，成为皇帝后改名为奥古斯都。

He kind of sets the model for what happens.

他为所发生的事情树立了榜样。

18:26 And then, how long does the Roman Empire last?

那么，罗马帝国还能持续多久呢？

That’s one of those great questions.

这是很好的问题之一。

The conventional answer is usually sometime in the fifth century, so the 400s AD, so about another 500 years, let’s say.

传统的答案通常是在公元 5 世纪的某个时候，即公元 400 年代，也就是说，再过大约 500 年。

So nice kind of even division, 500 years of Republic, 500 years of empire.

如此好的均匀划分，共和国500年，帝国500年。

But you can make very good cases for lots of other dates for the end of the Roman Empire.

但你可以为罗马帝国灭亡的许多其他日期提供很好的案例。

I actually think it goes all the way through the end of the Byzantine Empire in 1453, so another 1500 years, but that’s a whole other discussion.

事实上，我认为它一直持续到 1453 年拜占庭帝国的灭亡，所以又过了 1500 年，但这完全是另一个讨论了。

But so that’s your three phases of Roman history,

但这就是罗马历史的三个阶段，

And in some fundamental way, it still persists today, given how much of its ideas define our modern life, especially in the western world.

从某种根本上来说，它至今仍然存在，因为它的思想在很大程度上定义了我们的现代生活，尤其是在西方世界。

Yeah.

是的。

Can you speak to the relationship between ancient Greece and Roman Empire, both in the chronological sense and in the influence sense?

您能否谈谈古希腊和罗马帝国之间的关系，无论是从时间顺序还是从影响意义上？

Well, I mean, ancient Greece comes…

嗯，我的意思是，古希腊来了……

19:19 The classical era of Greek civilization is around the 500s BC.

希腊文明的古典时代是公元前500年代左右。

That’s when you have the great achievements of Athens.

那时你就拥有了雅典的伟大成就。

It becomes the first sort of true democracy.

它成为第一种真正的民主。

They defeat the Persian invasions.

他们击败了波斯的入侵。

A lot of famous stuff happens in the 400s, let’s say.

可以说，很多著名的事情都发生在 400 年代。

So that is contemporaneous with Rome, but the Greek civilization, in a sense, is peaking earlier.

因此，这与罗马是同时代的，但从某种意义上说，希腊文明的顶峰更早。

And one of the things that happens is that Greece ends up being conquered by Rome in that second half of the Roman Republic between 250 and about 30 BC.

其中发生的事情之一是，在公元前 250 年至大约 30 年的罗马共和国后半期，希腊最终被罗马征服。

And so, Greece falls under the control of Rome and Rome is very heavily influenced by Greek culture.

因此，希腊处于罗马的控制之下，罗马深受希腊文化的影响。

They themselves see the Greeks as a superior civilization, culturally more sophisticated, great art, great philosophy, all this.

他们自己认为希腊人是一个优越的文明，文化更加复杂，有伟大的艺术，伟大的哲学，所有这一切。

Another thing about the Romans is they’re super competitive.

罗马人的另一件事是他们超级有竞争力。

One of the engines that drives Romans is this public competitiveness, especially among the upper classes.

推动罗马人前进的动力之一就是这种公共竞争，尤其是在上层阶级中。

They care more about their status and standing among their peers than they do about money or even their own life, so there’s this intense competition.

他们更关心自己在同龄人中的地位和地位，而不是金钱甚至自己的生活，所以竞争很激烈。

20:36 When they conquer Greece, Greek culture just becomes one more arena of competition.

当他们征服希腊时，希腊文化就成了又一个竞争的舞台。

Romans will start to learn Greek.

罗马人将开始学习希腊语。

They’ll start to memorize Homer.

他们会开始记住荷马。

They’ll start to see who can quote more passages of Homer in Greek in their letters to one another because that increases their status.

他们会开始看看谁能在彼此的信件中引用更多希腊语荷马史诗的段落，因为这会提高他们的地位。

Rome absorbs Greek civilization, and then the two get fused together.

罗马吸收了希腊文明，然后两者融合在一起。

20:59 The other thing I should mention in terms of influences that’s really huge on Rome is the Etruscans, and this is one that comes along before the Greeks.

就对罗马影响真正巨大而言，我应该提到的另一件事是伊特鲁里亚人，这是在希腊人之前出现的。

The Etruscans were this kind of mysterious culture that flourished in northern Italy before the Romans, so way back 800 BC.

伊特鲁里亚人就是这种神秘的文化，早在公元前 800 年就在罗马人之前就在意大利北部蓬勃发展。

They were much more powerful than the Romans.

他们比罗马人强大得多。

They were a loose confederation of states.

他们是一个松散的国家联盟。

For awhile, the Romans even seemed to have been under Etruscan control.

有一段时间，罗马人甚至似乎处于伊特鲁里亚人的控制之下。

The last of the Roman kings was really an Etruscan guy pretty clearly.

最后一位罗马国王显然是伊特鲁里亚人。

But the Etruscans end up giving to Rome, or you could say Rome ends up stealing perhaps, a lot of elements of Etruscan culture.

但伊特鲁里亚人最终给了罗马，或者你可以说罗马最终窃取了伊特鲁里亚文化的很多元素。

Many of the things that we today think of as distinctively Roman, our cliches of what a Roman is, actually aren’t truly Roman, they’re stuff they stole from the Etruscans.

我们今天认为的许多独特的罗马事物，我们对罗马人的陈词滥调，实际上并不是真正的罗马人，它们是他们从伊特鲁里亚人那里偷来的东西。

Just a couple examples, the toga.

举几个例子，长袍。

What do you think of a Roman?

你觉得罗马人怎么样？

It’s a guy wearing a toga, and the toga is the mark of a Roman citizen.

这是一个穿着托加袍的家伙，托加袍是罗马公民的标志。

Well, that’s what Etruscan kings wore, probably.

嗯，这可能就是伊特鲁里亚国王所穿的衣服。

21:59 Gladiator games.

角斗士游戏。

We associate those very intensely with the Romans.

我们将这些与罗马人紧密联系在一起。

Well, they probably stole that from the Etruscans.

嗯，他们可能是从伊特鲁里亚人那里偷来的。

A lot of Roman religion.

很多罗马宗教。

Jupiter is a thunder God, all sorts of divination.

朱庇特是雷神，掌管各种占卜。

The Romans love to chop open animals and look at their livers and predict the future, that comes from the Etruscans.

罗马人喜欢剖开动物并观察它们的肝脏并预测未来，这来自伊特鲁里亚人。

Watching the flight of birds to predict the future, that comes from the Etruscans.

通过观察鸟类的飞行来预测未来，这来自伊特鲁里亚人。

There’s a lot of central elements of what we think of as Roman civilization, which actually are borrowings, let’s say, from these older, slightly mysterious Etruscans.

我们所认为的罗马文明有很多核心元素，这些元素实际上是从这些古老的、略显神秘的伊特鲁里亚人那里借来的。

I mean, that’s a really powerful thing.

我的意思是，这是一件非常强大的事情。

22:33 It’s a powerful aspect of a civilization to be able to, we can call it stealing which is a negative connotation, but you can also see its integration basically.

这是文明的一个强大的方面，我们可以称之为偷窃，这是一个负面含义，但你也可以看到它基本上的整合。

Yes, steal the best stuff from the peoples you conquer or the peoples that you interact with.

是的，从你征服的人民或与你互动的人民那里窃取最好的东西。

22:53 Not every empire does that.

并非每个帝国都这样做。

There’s a lot of nations and empires that when they conquer, they annihilate versus integrate.

有很多国家和帝国，当他们征服时，他们会消灭而不是整合。

And so, it’s an interesting thing to be able to culturally…

因此，能够在文化上……是一件有趣的事情。

The form that the competitiveness takes is that you want to compete in the realm of ideas in culture versus compete strictly in the realm of military conquest.

竞争的形式是在文化思想领域进行竞争，而不是严格在军事征服领域进行竞争。

Yeah, and I think you’ve exactly put your finger on one of the, let’s say, secrets of Rome’s success, which is that they’re very good at integrating non-Romans or non-Roman ideas and kind of absorbing them.

是的，我想你已经准确地指出了罗马成功的秘诀之一，那就是他们非常善于整合非罗马或非罗马的思想并吸收它们。

23:34 One of the things that’s absolutely crucial early in Roman history, when they’re just one of these tiny little mud hut villages fighting dozens of other mud hut villages in Italy, why does Rome emerge as the dominant one?

在罗马历史早期，这是绝对至关重要的事情之一，当它们只是这些小小的泥屋村庄之一，与意大利其他数十个泥屋村庄作战时，为什么罗马会成为占主导地位的村庄？

Well, one of the things they do is when they do finally succeed in conquering somebody else, let’s say another Italianate people, they do something very unusual because the normal procedure in the ancient world is let’s say you conquer another city, you often kill most of the men, enslave the women and children, steal all the stuff, right?

好吧，他们做的一件事是，当他们最终成功征服别人时，比如说另一个意大利人，他们做了一些非常不寻常的事情，因为古代世界的正常程序是，假设你征服了另一个城市，你经常杀死大多数男人，奴役妇女和儿童，偷走所有东西，对吧？

The Romans, at least with the Italians, conquer the other city, and sometimes they’ll do that, but sometimes they’ll also then say, “All right, we’re going to now leave you alone and we’re going to share with you a degree of Roman citizenship.” Sometimes they’d make them full citizens, more often they’d make them something we call half citizens, which is kind of what sounds like you get some of the privileges of citizenship, but not all of them.

罗马人，至少与意大利人一起，征服了另一座城市，有时他们会这样做，但有时他们也会说，“好吧，我们现在不打扰你了，我们将与你分享一定程度的罗马公民身份。”有时他们会让他们成为正式公民，更多时候他们会让他们成为我们所说的半公民，这听起来像是你获得了公民的一些特权，但不是全部。

Sometimes they would just make them allies, but they would sort of incorporate them into the Roman project.

有时他们只会让他们成为盟友，但他们也会将他们纳入罗马计划中。

24:33 They wouldn’t necessarily ask for money or taxes, which is weird too.

他们不一定会要求金钱或税收，这也很奇怪。

But instead, the one thing they would always, always demand from the conquered cities in Italy is that they provide troops to the Roman army.

但相反，他们总是、总是要求意大利被征服的城市向罗马军队提供军队。

The army becomes this mechanism of Romanization where you pull in foreigners, you make them like you, and then they end up fighting for you.

军队变成了罗马化的机制，你把外国人拉进来，让他们喜欢你，然后他们最终为你而战。

Early on, the secret to Rome’s military success is not that they have better generals.

早期，罗马军事成功的秘诀并不在于他们拥有更好的将军。

It’s not that they have better equipment.

并不是说他们有更好的设备。

It’s not that they have better strategy or tactics.

并不是说他们有更好的战略或战术。

It’s that they have limitless manpower, relatively speaking.

相对而言，他们拥有无限的人力。

They lose a war and they just come back and fight again, and they lose again, and they come back and they fight again, and eventually they just wear down their enemies because their key thing of their policy is we incorporate the conquered people.

他们输掉了一场战争，然后回来再次战斗，然后再次失败，然后回来再次战斗，最终他们只是削弱了敌人，因为他们政策的关键是我们将被征服的人民纳入其中。

25:25 The great moment that just exemplifies this is pretty late in this process.

体现这一点的伟大时刻已经是这个过程的后期了。

They’ve been doing this for 250 years just about, and they’ve gotten down to the toe of Italy, they’re conquering the very last cities down there.

他们这样做已经有大约 250 年了，他们已经深入意大利，他们正在征服那里最后的城市。

One of the last cities is actually a Greek city.

最后的城市之一实际上是希腊城市。

It’s a Greek colony.

这是希腊的殖民地。

It’s a wealthy city, and so when the Romans show up on the doorstep and are about to attack them, they do what any rich Greek colony or city does, they go out and hire the best mercenaries they can.

这是一座富裕的城市，因此当罗马人出现在门口并准备攻击他们时，他们会像任何富裕的希腊殖民地或城市一样，出去雇佣最好的雇佣兵。

They hire this guy who thinks of himself as the new Alexander the Great, a man named Pyrrhus of Epirus.

他们雇佣了这个自认为是新亚历山大大帝的人，一个名叫伊庇鲁斯的皮洛士的人。

He’s a mercenary.

他是一名雇佣兵。

He is actually related to Alexander distantly.

他实际上与亚历山大有远亲关系。

He has a terrific army, top-notch army.

他拥有一支了不起的军队，一流的军队。

He’s got elephants.

他有大象。

He’s got all the latest military technology.

他拥有所有最新的军事技术。

The Romans come and fight a battle against him, and Pyrrhus knows what he’s doing.

罗马人来与他作战，皮洛士知道他在做什么。

He wipes out the Romans.

他消灭了罗马人。

26:12 He thinks, “Okay, now we’ll have a peace treaty.

他想：“好吧，现在我们将签订和平条约。

We’ll negotiate something.

我们会协商一些事情。

I can go home.” But the Romans won’t even talk.

我可以回家了。”但罗马人甚至不会说话。

They go to their Italian allies and half-citizens, they raise a second army, they send it against Pyrrhus.

他们去找他们的意大利盟友和半公民，他们组建了第二支军队，派它去对抗皮洛士。

Pyrrhus says, ‘Okay, these guys are slow learners.

皮洛士说：‘好吧，这些人学东西很慢。

Fine.” He fights them again, wipes them out, thinks, “Now we’ll have a peace treaty.” But the Romans go back to the allies, raise a third army and send it after Pyrrhus.

美好的。”他再次与他们战斗，消灭他们，心想：“现在我们将签订和平条约。”但罗马人回到盟友身边，组建了第三支军队，并派遣它追击皮洛士。

When he sees that third army coming, he says, “I can’t afford to win another battle.

当他看到第三军来时，他说：“我无力再打一场仗了。

I win these battles, but each time I lose some of my troops and I can’t replace them, and the Romans just keep sprouting new armies.” So he gives up and goes home.

我赢得了这些战斗，但每次我都会失去一些军队，而且我无法取代他们，而罗马人只是不断地培养新的军队。”所以他放弃并回家了。

26:55 Rome kind of loses every battle, but wins the war.

罗马每场战斗都失败了，但赢得了战争。

Pyrrhus one of, actually, his officers has a great line as they’re going back to Greece.

事实上，皮洛士是他手下的军官之一，在返回希腊时，他说了一句很长的话。

He says, “Fighting the Romans is like fighting a hydra,” and a hydra is this mythological monster that when you cut off one head, two more grow in its place, so you can just never win.

他说，“与罗马人作战就像与九头蛇作战”，而九头蛇是一种神话怪物，当你砍掉一个头时，就会在它的位置上长出两个头，所以你永远无法获胜。

That’s fascinating.

这很有趣。

So that’s the secret to Rome’s early success.

这就是罗马早期成功的秘诀。

It’s not the military strategy.

这不是军事战略。

27:21 It’s not some technological asymmetry of power.

这不是什么技术上的权力不对称。

It’s literally just manpower.

从字面上看，这只是人力。

Mm-hm.

嗯嗯。

27:28 Early on.

早些时候。

Early on.

早些时候。

And later, the Romans get very good…

后来，罗马人变得非常好......

27:30 We’re into the empire phase now.

我们现在进入帝国阶段。

Once they have emperors into the AD era of kind of doing the same thing by drawing in the best and the brightest and the most ambitious and the most talented local leaders of the people they conquer.

一旦他们的皇帝进入了公元时代，他们就会做同样的事情，吸引他们所征服的人民中最优秀、最聪明、最雄心勃勃、最有才华的地方领导人。

When they go someplace, let’s say they conquer tribe of what to them as barbarians, they’ll often take the sons of the barbarian chiefs, bring them to Rome and raise them as Romans.

当他们去某个地方时，假设他们征服了对他们来说是野蛮人的部落，他们经常会把野蛮人首领的儿子带到罗马，并把他们当作罗马人抚养。

Damn.

该死的。

And so, it’s that whole way of turning your enemies into your own strength.

所以，这就是将你的敌人变成你自己的力量的整个方法。

28:02 The Romans start giving citizenship to areas they conquer.

罗马人开始向他们征服的地区授予公民身份。

Once they move out of Italy, they aren’t as free with the citizenship, but eventually they do.

一旦他们离开意大利，他们就不再拥有公民身份，但最终他们还是获得了公民身份。

They make Spain, lots of cities in Spain, they make all citizens and other places.

他们创造了西班牙，西班牙的许多城市，他们创造了所有公民和其他地方。

And soon enough, the Roman emperors and the Roman senators are not Italians, they’re coming from Spain or North Africa or Germany or wherever.

很快，罗马皇帝和罗马参议员就不再是意大利人，他们来自西班牙、北非、德国或其他地方。

28:32 As early as the second century AD of the Roman Empire, so the first set of emperors, the first 100 years were all Italians, but right away at the beginning of the second century AD you have Trajan, who’s from Spain.

早在公元二世纪的罗马帝国，所以第一批皇帝，前一百年都是意大利人，但是在公元二世纪初，就有了来自西班牙的图拉真。

The next guy, Hadrian’s from Spain, and then a century later, you have Septimius Severus, who’s from North Africa.

下一个人是来自西班牙的哈德良，一个世纪后，是来自北非的塞普蒂米乌斯·西弗勒斯。

You would later get guys from Syria.

稍后你会得到来自叙利亚的人。

I mean, the actual leaders of the Roman Empire are coming from the provinces.

我的意思是，罗马帝国的实际领导人来自各行省。

That’s brilliant.

太棒了。

And it’s that openness to incorporating foreigners, making them work for you, making them want to be part of your empire, that I think is one of Rome’s strengths.

我认为罗马的优势之一就是对接纳外国人的开放态度，让他们为你工作，让他们想成为你帝国的一部分。

Taking the sons is a brilliant idea and bringing them to Rome, because a kind of generational integration.

把儿子们带到罗马是一个绝妙的主意，因为这是一种代际融合。

The Roman military, later in the empire, is this giant machine of half a million people that takes in foreigners and churns out Romans.

罗马军队，即后来的帝国，是一个拥有五十万人的庞大机器，它吸收外国人并培养罗马人。

29:15 The army is composed of two groups.

军队由两个集团组成。

You have the Roman Legionaries who are all citizens, but then you have another group that’s just as large, about 250,000 of each, 250,000 Legionaries, 250,000 of the second group called Auxiliaries.

罗马军团都是公民，但还有另一个同样大的团体，每个团体大约有 250,000 人，即 250,000 名军团士兵，第二组称为辅助部队，有 250,000 人。

Auxiliaries tend to be newly conquered warlike people that the Romans enlist as Auxiliaries to fight with them.

辅助者往往是新征服的好战民族，罗马人招募他们作为辅助者与他们作战。

They serve side by side with the Roman legions for 25 years.

他们与罗马军团并肩服役了25年。

At the end of that time, when they’re discharged, what do they get?

最后，当他们出院时，他们会得到什么？

They get Roman citizenship, and their kids then tend to become Roman Legionaries.

他们获得罗马公民身份，他们的孩子往往会成为罗马军团士兵。

30:04 Again, you’re taking the most warlike and potentially dangerous of your enemies, kind of absorbing them, putting through this thing for 25 years where they learn Latin, they learn Roman customs, they maybe marry someone who’s already a Roman or a Latin woman.

再说一遍，你要吸收敌人中最好战、最具潜在危险的人，让他们经历25年的时间，让他们学习拉丁语，学习罗马习俗，他们可能会娶一个已经是罗马或拉丁女人的人。

They have kids within the system, their kids become Roman Legionaries, and you’ve thoroughly integrated what could have been your biggest enemies, right?

他们在体制内有孩子，他们的孩子成为罗马军团，而你已经彻底整合了可能是你最大的敌人，对吧？

Your greatest threat.

你最大的威胁。

That’s just brilliant, brilliant process of integration.

这真是一个非常非常出色的整合过程。

30:28 Is that what explains the rapid expansion during the late Republic?

这就是共和国晚期快速扩张的原因吗？

No.

不。

30:36 There it’s more the indigenous Italians who are in the army at that point.

那时参军的更多是意大利本土人。

They haven’t really expanded the Auxiliaries yet.

他们还没有真正扩展辅助设备。

That’s more something that happens in the Empire.

这更多的是发生在帝国的事情。

Yeah, so back it up.

是的，所以备份一下。

We have that first 250 years of the Roman Republic, from about 500 to let’s say 250 BC.

我们看到了罗马共和国的前 250 年，从公元前 500 年左右到公元前 250 年。

And in that period, they gradually expand throughout Italy, conquer the other Italian cities, who are pretty much like them.

在那段时期，他们逐渐扩展到整个意大利，征服了其他与他们非常相似的意大利城市。

They’re people who already speak similar languages or the same language, have the same gods.

他们已经说着相似的语言或相同的语言，拥有相同的神。

It’s easy to integrate them.

将它们集成起来很容易。

That’s the ones they make the half citizens and allies.

这就是他们成为半公民和盟友的人。

31:13 Then in the second half of that period, from about 250 to let’s say 30 BC, Rome goes outside of Italy, and this is a new world because now they’re encountering people who are really fundamentally different.

然后在那个时期的后半段，从大约公元前250年到公元前30年，罗马走出了意大利，这是一个新世界，因为现在他们遇到了真正不同的人。

So, true others.

所以，真正的其他人。

They do not have the same gods.

他们没有相同的神。

They don’t speak the same language.

他们说的不是同一种语言。

They have fundamentally different systems of economy, everything.

他们有着根本不同的经济体系，一切都不同。

31:34 Rome first expands in the Western Mediterranean, and there their big rival is the city state of Carthage, which is another city founded almost the same time as Rome that has also been a young, vigorously expanding aggressive empire.

罗马首先在西地中海扩张，在那里他们的主要竞争对手是城邦迦太基，迦太基是另一个与罗马几乎同时建立的城市，也是一个年轻的、大力扩张的侵略帝国。

In the Western Empire at this time, you have two sort of rival groups, and they’re very different because the Romans are these citizen soldier farmers…

在此时的西帝国，有两种敌对群体，它们非常不同，因为罗马人是这些公民士兵农民……

32:00 Because the Romans are these citizen soldier farmers, so the Romans are all these small farmers, that’s the basis of their economy, and it’s the Romans who serve in the army.

因为罗马人是这些公民士兵农民，所以罗马人都是这些小农，这是他们的经济基础，而罗马人在军队服役。

So the person who is a citizen, is also really by main profession, a farmer, and then in times of war, becomes a soldier.

因此，作为公民的人实际上也是以农民为主要职业，然后在战争时期成为士兵。

32:19 Carthage is an oligarchy of merchants, so it’s a very small citizen body.

迦太基是商人寡头政治，因此它的公民团体非常小。

They make their money through maritime trade, so they have ships that go all over the Mediterranean.

他们通过海上贸易赚钱，因此他们拥有遍布地中海的船只。

They don’t have a large army of Carthaginians.

他们没有一支庞大的迦太基军队。

Instead, they hire mercenaries mostly to fight for them, so it’s almost these two rival systems.

相反，他们雇佣雇佣兵主要是为了他们而战，所以这几乎是两个相互竞争的系统。

It’s different philosophies, different economies, everything.

这是不同的哲学，不同的经济，一切。

32:45 Rome is strong on land.

罗马在陆地上很强大。

Carthage is strong at sea.

迦太基的海上实力很强。

So there’s this dichotomy, but they’re both looking to expand and they repeatedly come into conflict as they expand.

因此存在这种二分法，但他们都希望扩张，但在扩张过程中却反复陷入冲突。

So Carthage is on the coast of North Africa, Rome’s in Central Italy.

所以迦太基位于北非海岸，罗马位于意大利中部。

What’s right between them?

他们之间有什么好说的？

The island of Sicily.

西西里岛。

So the first big war is fought purely dictated by geography.

因此，第一次大战纯粹是由地理决定的。

Who gets Sicily, Rome or Carthage?

西西里岛、罗马和迦太基谁会得到？

And Rome wins in the end, they get it, but Carthage is still strong.

罗马最终获胜，他们得到了胜利，但迦太基仍然强大。

They’re not weakened.

他们并没有被削弱。

So Carthage is now looking to expand.

因此迦太基现在正在寻求扩张。

33:16 The next place to go is Spain.

下一个要去的地方是西班牙。

So they go and take Spain.

所以他们去占领了西班牙。

Rome, meanwhile, is moving along the coast of what today’s France.

与此同时，罗马正沿着今天法国的海岸移动。

Where are they going to meet up?

他们要去哪里见面？

On the border of Spain and France.

位于西班牙和法国边境。

And there’s a city, at this point in time called Saguntum.

此时有一座城市，名叫萨贡图姆。

The second big war between Rome and Carthage is over.

罗马与迦太基之间的第二次大战结束了。

Who gets Saguntum?

谁得到萨贡图姆？

33:34 So, I mean, you can just look at a map and see this stuff coming.

所以，我的意思是，你只需看看地图就可以看到这些东西的出现。

Sometimes geography is inevitability, and I think in the course of the wars between Rome and Carthage called the Punic Wars, there is this geographic inevitability to them.

有时地理是不可避免的，我认为在罗马和迦太基之间称为布匿战争的战争过程中，他们有这种地理上的必然性。

Can you speak to the Punic Wars?

您能谈谈布匿战争吗？

33:47 There’s so many levels on which we can talk about this, but why was Rome victorious?

我们可以从很多层面来讨论这个问题，但为什么罗马会获胜呢？

Well, the Punic Wars really almost always comes down to the second Punic War.

嗯，布匿战争几乎总是归结为第二次布匿战争。

33:56 There’s three.

有三个。

There’s three Punic Wars.

共有三场布匿战争。

The first is over Sicily, Rome wins.

第一场是战胜西西里岛，罗马获胜。

The second is the big one, and it’s the big one because Carthage at this point in time, just by sheer luck, coughs up one of the greatest military geniuses in all of history.

第二个是最重要的，它是最重要的，因为迦太基在这个时候，仅仅靠运气，就诞生了历史上最伟大的军事天才之一。

34:15 This guy, Hannibal Barca, he was actually the son of the Carthaginian general who fought Rome for Sicily.

这个家伙，汉尼拔·巴尔卡，他其实是为西西里岛与罗马作战的迦太基将军的儿子。

Hamilcar was his father, but Hannibal is this just genius, just absolute military genius.

哈米尔卡是他的父亲，但汉尼拔是天才，绝对的军事天才。

He goes to Spain.

他去西班牙。

He’s the one who kind of organizes stuff there, and now he knows the second war with Rome is inevitable.

他是那个在那里组织事情的人，现在他知道与罗马的第二次战争是不可避免的。

And so, the question is how do you take down Rome?

所以，问题是你如何摧毁罗马？

He’s smart.

他很聪明。

He’s seen Rome’s strength.

他看到了罗马的实力。

He knows it’s the Italian allies.

他知道这是意大利的盟友。

34:45 So Rome always wins because even if they lose battles, they go to the Italian allies and half citizens and raise new armies.

所以罗马总是会赢，因为即使他们输掉了战斗，他们也会去找意大利盟友和半公民并组建新的军队。

So how do you beat them?

那么你如何击败他们呢？

He can never raise that many troops himself.

他自己永远不可能调集那么多军队。

And Hannibal, I think correctly figures out the one way to maybe defeat Rome is to cut them away from their allies.

汉尼拔，我认为正确地找到了击败罗马的一种方法，就是切断他们与盟友的联系。

Well, how do you do this?

那么，你怎么做呢？

35:06 Hannibal’s plan is, I’m not going to wait and fight the Romans in Spain or North Africa.

汉尼拔的计划是，我不会等待在西班牙或北非与罗马人作战。

I’m going to invade Italy.

我要入侵意大利。

So I’m going to strike at the heart of this growing Roman Empire, and my hope is that if I can win a couple big battles against Rome in Italy, the Italians will want their freedom back and they’ll rebel from Rome and maybe even join me, because most people who have been conquered want their freedom back, so this is a reasonable plan.

所以我要攻击这个不断发展的罗马帝国的核心，我的希望是，如果我能在意大利赢得几场对抗罗马的大战，意大利人就会想要恢复自由，他们会反抗罗马，甚至可能加入我，因为大多数被征服的人都希望恢复自由，所以这是一个合理的计划。

35:37 So Hannibal famously crosses the Alps with elephants, dramatic stuff.

因此，汉尼拔带着大象穿越阿尔卑斯山，这是著名的戏剧性事件。

Nobody expects him to do this.

没有人期望他这样做。

Nobody thinks you can do this.

没有人认为你能做到这一点。

Shows up in Northern Italy.

出现在意大利北部。

Romans send an army.

罗马人派出一支军队。

Hannibal massacres them.

汉尼拔屠杀了他们。

He is a military genius.

他是一位军事天才。

Rome takes a year, raises a second army.

罗马花了一年时间，组建了第二支军队。

We know this story, sends it against Hannibal.

我们知道这个故事，并将其发送给汉尼拔。

Hannibal wipes them out.

汉尼拔消灭了他们。

35:57 Rome gets clever this time.

罗马这次聪明了。

They say, okay, Hannibal’s different.

他们说，好吧，汉尼拔与众不同。

We’re going to take two years, raise two armies and send them both out at the same time against Hannibal.

我们将花两年时间，组建两支军队，同时派出两支军队对抗汉尼拔。

So they do this, and this is the Battle of Cannae, which is one of the most famous battles in history, Hannibal’s facing this army of 80,000 Romans about, and he comes up with a strategy called double envelopment.

于是他们就这么做了，这就是坎尼战役，这是历史上最著名的战役之一，汉尼拔面对这支大约八万罗马人的军队，他想出了一个叫做双重包围的策略。

I mean, we can go into it later if you want, but it’s this famous strategy where he basically sucks the Romans in, surrounds them on all sides, and in one afternoon at the Battle of Cannae, Hannibal kills about 60,000 Romans.

我的意思是，如果你愿意的话，我们可以稍后再讨论，但正是这个著名的战略，他基本上将罗马人吸了进去，从四面八方包围了他们，在坎尼战役的一个下午，汉尼拔杀死了大约 60,000 名罗马人。

36:36 Now, just to put that in perspective, that’s more Romans hacked to death in one afternoon with swords than Americans died in 20 years in Vietnam.

现在，从长远来看，罗马人在一个下午被刀剑砍死的人数比美国人在越南 20 年内死亡的人数还多。

I mean, the Battle of Gettysburg, which lasted three days and was one of the bloodiest battles of civil war, I think the actual deaths at that were maybe like 15,000.

我的意思是，葛底斯堡战役持续了三天，是内战中最血腥的战斗之一，我认为实际死亡人数可能约为 15,000 人。

So this is a bloodshed of an almost unimaginable scale.

所以这是一场规模几乎难以想象的流血事件。

It’s also brutal…

这也太残酷了吧……

Yes.

是的。

…

……

37:03 just to slaughter.

就是为了宰杀。

I mean, it’s just mind boggling to think of that.

我的意思是，想到这一点真是令人难以置信。

So now, this is Rome’s darkest hour.

现在，这是罗马最黑暗的时刻。

This is why the second Punic War is important, because there’s that Nietzsche phrase, “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger,” this is the closest Rome comes to death in the history of the Republic.

这就是为什么第二次布匿战争很重要，因为尼采有句名言，“杀不死你的，会让你更强大”，这是共和国历史上罗马最接近死亡的一次。

Hannibal almost kills Rome, but no, it’s not much of a spoiler.

汉尼拔几乎杀死了罗马，但这并不是剧透。

37:28 Rome’s going to survive, and from this point on, they’re going to be unbeatable, but this is the crisis.

罗马将会生存下来，从现在开始，他们将是不可战胜的，但这就是危机。

This is the crucible.

这是坩埚。

This is the furnace that Rome passes through, that is the dividing point between when they’re one more up and coming empire and when they’re clearly the dominant power in the Mediterranean.

这是罗马所经历的熔炉，这是罗马帝国何时成为一个新兴帝国，以及何时成为地中海地区明显主导力量的分界点。

37:44 So what do they do about Hannibal?

那么他们对汉尼拔做了什么？

Well, they’re smart.

嗯，他们很聪明。

We’re not going to fight Hannibal.

我们不会与汉尼拔作战。

We’re not going to give Hannibal the chance to kill more Romans.

我们不会给汉尼拔杀死更多罗马人的机会。

So they adopt a strategy that they’ll follow Hannibal, when they raise a couple more armies, follow Hannibal round, but whenever Hannibal turns and tries to attack them, the Romans just back off.

因此他们采取了一种策略，那就是跟随汉尼拔，当他们再召集几支军队时，就跟随汉尼拔，但每当汉尼拔转身试图攻击他们时，罗马人就会退缩。

No, thank you.

不，谢谢。

We’re not going to let you give you a chance.

我们不会让你给你机会。

38:07 Meanwhile though, they’re not scared of other Carthaginians, so they raise a couple more armies and they send these to Spain, for example, and start attacking the Carthaginian holdings there.

但与此同时，他们并不害怕其他迦太基人，因此他们又组建了几支军队，并将这些军队派往西班牙，例如，并开始攻击那里的迦太基人的领地。

And by luck or necessity, Rome comes up with its own brilliant commander at this point, a guy named Scipio, and he wins victories in Spain, conquers Spain.

不管是幸运还是必然，罗马此时出现了自己的杰出指挥官，一个名叫西庇阿的人，他在西班牙赢得了胜利，征服了西班牙。

Then, he crosses into North Africa and starts to conquer that and ends up threatening Carthage directly.

然后，他进入北非并开始征服该地区，最终直接威胁迦太基。

38:34 And poor Hannibal, undefeated in Italy, has now been walking up and down Italy or marching up and down Italy for 12 years looking for another fight, and the Romans won’t give it to them.

可怜的汉尼拔，在意大利未尝败绩，现在已经在意大利来回走动，或者在意大利来回游行了12年，寻找另一场战斗，而罗马人不会给他们机会。

They’ve been attacking all these other areas and chipping away at Carthaginian power.

他们一直在攻击所有其他地区并削弱迦太基的力量。

38:52 So finally, after more than a decade in Italy, Hannibal is called back to defend the homeland, defend Carthage from Scipio.

最终，在意大利呆了十多年之后，汉尼拔被召回保卫祖国，保卫迦太基免受西庇阿的侵害。

The two meet in a big battle.

两人在一场大战中相遇。

This should be one of the great battles of all times the Battle of Zama, but Hannibal’s guys are kind of old by this point.

这应该是扎马战役中最伟大的战役之一，但汉尼拔的人此时已经有点老了。

Scipio has all the advantages.

西庇阿拥有所有优点。

He wins.

他赢了。

Carthage is defeated.

迦太基战败。

So that’s pretty much the end of Carthage.

那么迦太基的结局就差不多了。

39:15 The city survives, and then 50 years later, the Romans wipe it out, but that’s not much of a war.

这座城市幸存下来，50 年后，罗马人将其消灭，但这算不上一场战争。

But from this moment on, from the second Punic War, which ends in 201 BC, Rome is undisputably the most powerful force nation in the Mediterranean world, and having conquered the West, they’re now going to turn to the East, which is the Greek world, and the Greek world is older.

但从这一刻起，从公元前201年结束的第二次布匿战争开始，罗马无可争议地成为地中海世界最强大的武力国家，征服了西方之后，他们现在要转向东方，也就是希腊世界，而希腊世界更古老。

It’s richer, it’s the rich part, half of the Mediterranean, it’s culturally more sophisticated.

它更富裕，是地中海的一半，文化更复杂。

It’s the world left by Alexander the Great, that’s ruled by the descendants of his generals.

这是亚历山大大帝留下的世界，由他的将军的后裔统治。

39:50 And the Greeks kind of view themselves as superior to the Romans.

希腊人认为自己比罗马人优越。

I mean, to the Greeks, the Romans are these uncouth sort of savage barbarians, but they’re going to get a real shock because the Roman army now has gotten really good to beat Hannibal.

我的意思是，对于希腊人来说，罗马人是这些粗鲁的野蛮人，但他们会感到真正的震惊，因为罗马军队现在已经非常擅长击败汉尼拔了。

And when they go East, they’re going to just defeat the Greeks relatively easily, one after the other.

当他们前往东方时，他们将相对轻松地击败希腊人，一个接一个。

40:11 And there’s a famous historian named Polybius who is a Greek whose city was captured by the Romans.

还有一位著名的历史学家，名叫波利比乌斯，他是希腊人，他的城市被罗马人占领了。

He later becomes a friend to the Scipio family.

后来他成为西庇阿家族的朋友。

He actually teaches some of the Scipio children about Greek culture.

他实际上向西庇阿的一些孩子传授希腊文化。

And he writes a history of Rome and his motivation for writing this is he says, at the beginning of this book, he says, “Surely there can be no one so incurious as to not want to understand how the Romans could have conquered the entire Greek world in 53 years,” because that seems unimaginable to him.

他写了一部罗马历史，他写这本书的动机是，在本书的开头，他说，“当然，没有人会如此好奇，不想了解罗马人如何在 53 年内征服整个希腊世界，”因为这对他来说似乎难以想象。

40:46 So he’s writing this entire history as a way to try and understand how did the Romans do it?

所以他写下整个历史是为了尝试理解罗马人是如何做到的？

We were these wonderful superior people, and they came around in 50 years, bang, that’s the end of us.

我们是这些优秀的人，他们在 50 年后出现了，砰，我们就完蛋了。

So that’s his motivation.

所以这就是他的动机。

Could you maybe speak to any interesting details of the military genius of Hannibal or Scipio?

您能否谈谈汉尼拔或西庇阿军事天才的任何有趣细节？

40:59 At that time, what are some interesting aspects this double envelopment idea?

那么，这个双重包围的想法有哪些有趣的地方呢？

I mean, Hannibal is good because he understood how to use different troop types and to play to their strengths and how to use terrain.

我的意思是，汉尼拔很优秀，因为他了解如何使用不同的部队类型，发挥他们的优势以及如何利用地形。

41:10 So I mean, this is basic military stuff, but he did it really well.

所以我的意思是，这是基本的军事内容，但他做得非常好。

So one is his victories against the Romans, for example, is when the Romans are marching along the edge of a lake and their army is strung out in marching formations.

例如，他对罗马人的胜利是当罗马人沿着湖边行军时，他们的军队排成行军队形。

41:32 They’re not kind of in combat formation, but they’re strung out along the edge of this lake.

他们并不是处于战斗队形，而是沿着湖边排成一排。

It’s misty.

有雾。

There’s not good visibility, and he ambushes them along this lakeside, so Lake Trasimene, and it’s just using the terrain, understanding this.

能见度不好，他沿着特拉西梅内湖畔伏击他们，这只是利用地形，了解这一点。

Again, Hannibal is very much outnumbered, but he’s able to use the terrain and to take the enemy by surprise.

汉尼拔再次在数量上处于劣势，但他能够利用地形并让敌人措手不及。

41:51 At Cannae, he’s working against the expectations.

在坎尼，他的工作与预期背道而驰。

So the traditional thing you do in the ancient world is the two armies would line up on opposite sides of a field, you’d put your best troops in the middle, you’d put your cavalry on the sides, you’d put your lightly armed skirmishers beyond those, and then the two sides kind of smack together, and the good troops fight the good, and you see who wins.

因此，在古代世界，你做的传统做法是，两支军队在战场的两侧排成一排，你把最好的部队放在中间，你把你的骑兵放在两侧，你把你的轻装散兵放在他们的后面，然后两支军队撞在一起，好部队与好部队战斗，你就知道谁赢了。

42:15 Now, Hannibal is hugely outnumbered by this giant phalanx of heavy infantry, which is what the Romans specialized in.

现在，汉尼拔在数量上远远落后于罗马人所擅长的庞大重装步兵方阵。

They’re very good at sort of heavily armed foot soldiers.

他们非常擅长全副武装的步兵。

So he knows I don’t want to go up against that.

所以他知道我不想反对这一点。

I don’t have that many of that troop type.

我没有那么多这种类型的部队。

My guys aren’t as good as the Romans anyway.

无论如何，我的人不如罗马人。

42:33 So he lines up some of his less good troops in the center against the big menacing Roman phalanx, and he tells them, “Okay, when the Romans come, you’re not really trying to win, just hold them up.

因此，他将一些不太优秀的部队安排在中间，对抗来势汹汹的罗马方阵，然后他告诉他们，“好吧，当罗马人来的时候，你并不是真的想赢，只是阻止他们。

Just delay them,” and even tells them you can give ground, so you can retreat and sort of let the line form a big kind of C-shaped crescents, let the Romans sort of advance into you, but just hold that line.

只要拖延他们，”甚至告诉他们你可以让步，这样你就可以撤退，让防线形成一个大的C形新月，让罗马人向你推进，但只要守住那条防线即可。

42:58 And meanwhile, he puts his cavalry and his good troops on the side, and so on the sides, those good troops defeat the Romans, and then they kind of circle in behind the Romans and attack that big menacing Roman phalanx from the rear where it’s very vulnerable.

与此同时，他把他的骑兵和优秀的部队放在一边，所以在侧面，那些优秀的部队击败了罗马人，然后他们绕到罗马人后面，从后方攻击那个非常脆弱的巨大的罗马方阵。

And so, Hannibal catches the Romans in this sort of giant cauldron just with people closing in from both sides, and they get pressed together.

因此，汉尼拔将罗马人困在了这种巨大的锅里，人们从两边逼近，他们被压在一起。

They can’t fight properly, they panic, and they’re all slaughtered.

他们无法正常战斗，他们惊慌失措，然后全都被屠杀了。

43:27 And that strategy of double envelopment, of sort of going around both sides becomes the model for all kinds of military strategies throughout the rest of history.

这种双重包围战略，即两侧绕行的战略，成为历史上各种军事战略的典范。

I mean, the Germans use this in their Blitzkrieg in World War II, a lot of it was kind of that go around the sides and envelop the enemy.

我的意思是，德国人在第二次世界大战中的闪电战中使用了这一点，其中很多都是绕过侧面并包围敌人。

On the eastern front, they had a bunch of these cauldron battles where they would go around and try to encircle huge chunks of the Soviet, the Russian army, and do the same thing.

在东线，他们进行了一系列这样的大锅战，他们会四处走动，试图包围苏联和俄罗斯军队的大部队，并做同样的事情。

43:54 Supposedly even in the Gulf War, it was part of the US strategy for the invasion of Iraq to do this kind double envelopment maneuver.

据说，即使是在海湾战争中，这种双重包围机动也是美国入侵伊拉克战略的一部分。

So it’s something that for the rest of military history, has been an inspiration to other armies.

因此，在整个军事史上，这一直是其他军队的灵感来源。

Can you speak to maybe, the difference between heavy infantry and cavalry, the usefulness of it in the ancient world?

您能谈谈重型步兵和骑兵之间的区别以及它们在古代世界的用处吗？

The ancient world, sort of from the Greeks through the Romans, there’s this consistent line of focusing on heavy infantry.

古代世界，从希腊人到罗马人，都有一条一贯的路线，那就是重步兵。

44:12 So going back to Greece when they’re fighting, let’s say Persia, which at the time, was the superpower of the ancient world and vastly richer, vastly larger than Ancient Greece, tons more men, but the Persians tended to be archers, tended to be light horsemen tended to be light infantry.

所以回到希腊，当他们战斗时，让我们说波斯，当时，它是古代世界的超级大国，而且比古希腊更富有，面积更大，人口更多，但波斯人往往是弓箭手，往往是轻骑兵，往往是轻步兵。

44:40 Whereas the Greeks specialized in what are called hop lights, which is a kind of infantrymen with very heavy body armor, a helmet, a spear, and a really big heavy shield.

而希腊人则专注于所谓的“跳跃灯”，这是一种带有非常重的防弹衣、头盔、长矛和非常大的重型盾牌的步兵。

And they would get in that formation where you kind of make the shields overlap and just form this solid mass bristling with spear points and just slowly kind of march forward and grind up your enemy in front of you.

他们会进入那种阵型，你可以让盾牌重叠，形成一个长满矛尖的固体团块，然后慢慢地向前行进，碾碎你面前的敌人。

And so, that’s that sort of block of heavy infantry.

所以，这就是那种重型步兵部队。

45:07 The advantage is head on against other things, they tend to win.

优点是正面对抗其他事物，他们往往会获胜。

The disadvantage is it’s slow moving.

缺点是动作慢。

It’s vulnerable from the sides and the rear, so you got to protect those, but if you can keep frontally faced, it’s pretty much invincible.

它的侧面和后面都很脆弱，所以你必须保护它们，但如果你能保持正面，它几乎是无敌的。

And that’s taken even further by Alexander the Great who comes up with the idea, well, what if we even give them a longer spear?

亚历山大大帝甚至更进一步，他提出了这样的想法：好吧，如果我们给他们一根更长的矛怎么办？

So Greek spears were six to eight feet long.

所以希腊矛有六到八英尺长。

Alexander the Great, arms his armies with the sarissa, which is this 15 foot, almost a pike, this extra long spear.

亚历山大大帝用 sarissa 武装他的军队，这支长矛长达 15 英尺，几乎是长矛。

45:41 And so, when the spear is that long, you don’t even hardly need the shields anymore.

所以，当矛那么长时，你甚至不再需要盾牌了。

So it’s just this incredibly powerful thing in frontal attack, and that’s what he uses to make himself ruler of the known world.

所以这就是正面攻击中极其强大的东西，这就是他用来使自己成为已知世界的统治者的东西。

He goes and conquers the Persian Empire and makes himself the Persian king of kings with this phalanx of troops armed with the sarissa.

他率领这支手持萨里萨的方阵，征服了波斯帝国，成为波斯万王之王。

So that’s very powerful.

所以这是非常强大的。

46:03 The Romans go a little bit different route.

罗马人走的路线有点不同。

They have heavy infantry, but they focus more on fighting with short swords, so it’s get up close and kind of stab.

他们有重型步兵，但他们更注重用短剑战斗，所以是近距离刺杀。

And the other thing the Romans do is they focus on flexibility and subdividing their army.

罗马人做的另一件事是他们注重灵活性和细分军队。

So Alexander’s phalanx was a mass of let’s say, 5,000 guys and it was one unit.

比如说，亚历山大的方阵由 5000 人组成，是一个整体。

46:27 The Roman army is organized in an ever decreasing number of subunits.

罗马军队的编制数量不断减少。

So you have a group of eight guys who are a contubernia, the men who share a tent, you take 10 of those and they form a century of 80 men.

所以你有一个由八个人组成的团体，他们共享一个帐篷，你把其中的十个人组成一个由 80 个人组成的世纪。

You take a bunch of those and you form a cohort.

你拿了一堆这样的东西，就组成了一个队列。

If you forget a bunch of those, you form a legion.

如果你忘记了其中的一些，你就会形成一个军团。

46:44 So the Romans are able to subdivide their army, and the big sticking point comes at 197 BC at the Battle of Cynoscephalae, when the Roman Legion goes up against one of the descendants of Alexander the Great, who’s using his military system.

因此，罗马人能够细分他们的军队，而最大的症结出现在公元前 197 年的 Cynoscephalae 战役，当时罗马军团与亚历山大大帝的后裔之一对抗，后者正在使用他的军事系统。

So this is the new Roman system with flexibility versus the old invincible Alexander system with the heavily armed sarissa with those long 15-foot poles.

因此，这是具有灵活性的新罗马体系，与旧的无敌亚历山大体系（拥有全副武装的萨里萨和 15 英尺长的杆子）的对比。

47:10 And the key moment in the battle is where they lock together And in a head-on clash, the Macedonians are going to win, but the Romans have the flexibility to break off a little section of their army, run around to the side, and attack that formation from the side, and they win the battle.

战斗的关键时刻是他们抱在一起。在正面交锋中，马其顿人会获胜，但罗马人可以灵活地折断他们的一小部分军队，绕到侧面，从侧面攻击那个阵型，他们赢得了战斗。

So they prove tactically superior because of their flexibility.

因此，他们的灵活性证明了他们在战术上的优越性。

So it’s always development and counter development in military history.

所以军事史上总是有发展与反发展。

A fascinating, brutal testing, ground of tactics and technology

一个令人着迷、残酷的测试、战术和技术的场所

Adaptation, you have to keep adapting.

适应，你必须不断适应。

That’s, I think, the key thing.

我认为这是关键的事情。

47:41 One of the fascinating things about your work, you study Roman life life in the ancient world, but also the details, like we mentioned, you are an expert in armor.

你的工作最吸引人的地方之一是，你研究古代世界的罗马人的生活，还有细节，就像我们提到的，你是盔甲专家。

So what kind of, maybe you could speak to weapons and most importantly, armor that were used by the Romans or by people in the ancient world.

那么什么样的，也许你可以谈论罗马人或古代世界的人们使用的武器，最重要的是，盔甲。

I do military history.

我是学军事史的。

48:05 So I mean, the Romans specialized in, I mean, early on they have pretty random armor, and it’s not standardized.

所以我的意思是，罗马人很早就专门生产了相当随机的盔甲，而且不是标准化的。

I mean, remember, there’s no factories in the ancient world, so nobody’s cranking out 10,000 units of exactly the same armor.

我的意思是，记住，古代世界没有工厂，所以没有人能生产出 10,000 套完全相同的盔甲。

Each one is handmade.

每一件都是手工制作的。

Now, there can be a degree of standardization, even as early as Alexander, there was a certain amount of standardization, but each one is still handmade, and that’s important to keep in mind, each weapon, each piece of armor.

现在，可以有一定程度的标准化，即使早在亚历山大时期，就有一定程度的标准化，但每一件仍然是手工制作的，记住这一点很重要，每件武器，每件盔甲。

48:34 Armor develops over time to fit the tactics.

护甲会随着时间的推移而发展以适应战术。

So the Greek hoplites, are very heavy armor.

所以希腊重装步兵是非常重甲的。

The Roman infantrymen early in the public is lighter.

早期的罗马步兵在大众中较为轻便。

Eventually they get this typical sort of chain mail shirt, helmet shield, the classic sort of Roman legionary, I would say, is the one of the first and second centuries AD, so the early Roman Empire, and this is the guy who wore bands of steel arranged in sort of bands around their body.

最终他们得到了这种典型的锁子甲衬衫，头盔盾牌，典型的罗马军团，我想说，是公元一世纪和二世纪的那种，所以是早期的罗马帝国，这是一个在身体周围佩戴钢带的家伙。

So it looks almost like a lobster’s shell, right?

所以它看起来几乎像龙虾壳，对吧？

And this is a thing called the lorica segmentata.

这是一种叫做 loricaegata 的东西。

49:06 So it’s solid steel, which is very good protection, but it’s flexible because it has these individual bands that provide a lot of movement.

所以它是实心钢，这是非常好的保护，但它很灵活，因为它有这些单独的带子，可以提供很大的运动。

And then, you have a helmet, you have a square shield that’s kind of curved, and you have the short sword, the Roman gladius and that’s the classic Roman legionary.

然后，你有一个头盔，你有一个有点弯曲的方形盾牌，你有短剑，罗马短剑，这就是经典的罗马军团。

Later, more things develop.

后来，更多的事情发展了。

49:26 My personal relationship with armor is I got, really by accident, involved in this project to try to reconstruct this mysterious type of armor that was used, especially by the Greeks and Alexander the Great called the linothorax, which apparently was made only out of linen and glue.

我个人与盔甲的关系是，我真的很偶然地参与了这个项目，试图重建这种神秘的盔甲，尤其是希腊人和亚历山大大帝使用的被称为亚麻胸甲的盔甲，它显然是仅由亚麻和胶水制成的。

So this seems a little odd that that’s not the sort of material once you want metal or something, but we had clear literary references that people, including Alexander, and the most famous image of Alexander is this Alexander mosaic found at Pompeii that shows him wearing one of these funny types of armor.

所以这似乎有点奇怪，一旦你想要金属或其他东西，那不是那种材料，但我们有明确的文学参考资料，包括亚历山大在内的人们，亚历山大最著名的图像是在庞贝古城发现的亚历山大马赛克，显示他穿着这些有趣类型的盔甲之一。

50:05 The catch is none survived.

捕获的鱼无一幸存。

It’s organic materials.

它是有机材料。

So we don’t have any of them and archaeologists like to study things that survive.

所以我们没有任何这样的东西，考古学家喜欢研究幸存的东西。

So we have nice typologies of Greek armor made of bronze, Roman armor made of steel or sort of proto steel, but this thing, this linothorax was a mystery.

所以我们有很好的类型学，由青铜制成的希腊盔甲，由钢或原始钢制成的罗马盔甲，但是这个东西，这个亚麻胸是一个谜。

And one of my undergraduate students, a guy named Scott Bartel, had a real, well, an Alexander obsession.

我的一个本科生，名叫斯科特·巴特尔（Scott Bartel），对亚历山大有着真正的痴迷。

He really loved Alexander.

他真的很爱亚历山大。

As one should.

正如人们应该做的那样。

He had Alexandros tattooed on his arm in Greek, and he was a smart student.

他的手臂上纹有希腊语的亚历山德罗，他是一个聪明的学生。

50:35 He was really smart.

他真的很聪明。

And so, he, one summer, made himself an imitation of this thing of Alexander just for fun.

于是，有一个夏天，他模仿了亚历山大的这个东西，只是为了好玩。

And he said, “Can you give me some articles so I could do a better job?” So he used some scholarly articles about this armor, and with typical academic arrogance, I said, “Why, Scott, of course I will.

他说：“你能给我一些文章，这样我就能做得更好吗？”所以他用了一些关于这件盔甲的学术文章，我带着典型的学术傲慢说，“为什么，斯科特，我当然会。

I’ll give you some references,” and I went and looked and there weren’t any.

我会给你一些参考资料。”我去看了一下，却没有。

So at that point, I was like, “Huh, tell you what, why don’t you and I look into this and try to do a reconstruction using only the materials they would’ve had in the ancient world?” And little did I know at the time, I thought, maybe I’ll get an article out of this, I mean, it ended up being a tenure project involving 150 students, a couple dozen other faculty members, and having three documentaries made out of it.

所以当时我就想，“嗯，告诉你吧，为什么你和我不研究一下这个问题，并尝试仅使用古代世界拥有的材料进行重建呢？”当时我几乎不知道，我想，也许我会从中得到一篇文章，我的意思是，它最终成为一个终身项目，涉及 150 名学生和其他几十名教员，并用它制作了三部纪录片。

And Scott and I ended up writing a scholarly book on this.

斯科特和我最终就此写了一本学术书。

So this is how, you never know where your next project’s going to come from.

这就是为什么，你永远不知道你的下一个项目会来自哪里。

51:34 So it started with this undergraduate turned into this huge thing, but it’s what we did.

所以从这个本科生开始就变成了一件大事，但这就是我们所做的。

We first said, “All right, what are all the sources for this armor?” And in the end, we found 65 accounts of it in ancient literature by 40 different authors.

我们首先说，“好吧，这件盔甲的来源是什么？”最后，我们在古代文献中找到了 40 名不同作者的 65 条描述。

So we have literary descriptions, and then we looked at ancient art, and we were able to identify about a thousand images in ancient art, in vase paintings, pottery, bronze sculpture, tomb paintings, all these different things showing this armor.

所以我们有文学描述，然后我们研究古代艺术，我们能够在古代艺术中识别出大约一千种图像，在花瓶画、陶器、青铜雕塑、墓葬绘画中，所有这些不同的东西都展示了这种盔甲。

52:05 And then, using those two things, we tried to backwards engineer a pattern to say, “Well, if this is what the end product look like, what does it have to look like when you make it?” And then we tried to reconstruct one of these things using only the glue and materials.

然后，利用这两件事，我们尝试向后设计一种模式，“好吧，如果这就是最终产品的样子，那么当你制作它时它必须是什么样子？”然后我们尝试仅使用胶水和材料来重建其中一件东西。

So we had to use animal glues, rabbit glue.

所以我们只好用动物胶、兔胶。

We had to end up sort of making our own linen, which comes from the flax plant.

我们最终不得不自己制作亚麻布，这些亚麻布来自亚麻植物。

So we had to grow flax, harvest it, using only techniques in the ancient world, so modern flax goes through chemical processes.

所以我们必须只使用古代世界的技术来种植和收获亚麻，所以现代亚麻要经历化学过程。

No, we had to do this the old-fashioned way, spin it into thread, so the thread into fabric, glue it all together.

不，我们必须用老式的方法来做这件事，将其纺成线，然后将线放入织物中，然后将它们粘在一起。

52:41 And then, the fun part was once we made these things, we subjected them to ballistics testing.

然后，有趣的部分是，一旦我们制造了这些东西，我们就对它们进行弹道测试。

So we shot them with arrows, which again were wooden reconstruction arrows, using bronze arrowheads that were based on arrowheads found on ancient battlefields to determine how good protection would this thing have been.

所以我们用箭射它们，这又是木制重建箭，使用基于古代战场上发现的箭头的青铜箭头来确定这个东西的防护效果如何。

And of course, the kind of fun one that everyone always likes and that the documentaries always want is at one point they’re like, “Well, can you put Scott in one of these and shoot him?” And we’re like, “Okay.” I mean, at that point, we’ve done about a thousand test shots.

当然，每个人都喜欢、纪录片也总是想要的那种有趣的东西，在某一时刻他们会说，“好吧，你能把斯科特放进其中一部然后开枪打死他吗？”我们说：“好吧。”我的意思是，那时我们已经进行了大约一千次测试。

I grew up shooting bows and arrows.

我从小就射弓箭。

I knew exactly how far that was going to go.

我很清楚这会走多远。

So it’s one of these, don’t do this at home kids.

所以这是其中之一，孩子们不要在家里这样做。

So there’s a million questions to ask here, but in general, how well, in terms of ballistics, does it work?

因此，这里有一百万个问题要问，但总的来说，就弹道学而言，它的效果如何？

53:19 Can it withstand arrows or direct strikes from swords and axes and stuff like that?

它能承受箭矢或剑斧之类的直接攻击吗？

Bottom line is a one centimeter thick linothorax, laminated, or even sewn.

底线是一厘米厚的亚麻布，层压的，甚至是缝制的。

53:30 It doesn’t have to be laminated.

它不必层压。

Layer of linen is about as good protection as two millimeters of bronze, which was the thickest, comparable, body armor of bronze at the time.

亚麻层的防护效果相当于两毫米的青铜，这是当时最厚的、可比的青铜防弹衣。

And we’re talking fourth century, fifth century BC here, so classical and Hellenistic Greece, and that would’ve protected you from, let’s say, random arrow strikes on the battlefield.

我们这里谈论的是公元前四世纪、五世纪，古典和希腊化的希腊，这可以保护你免受战场上随机箭的袭击。

So you could have gotten hit by arrows and they simply wouldn’t have gone through.

所以你可能会被箭击中，但它们根本就不会穿过。

What are the benefits?

有什么好处？

54:06 Is there a major weight difference?

重量差别大吗？

Yes.

是的。

54:09 So the benefits of this are, it’s much lighter than metal armor.

所以这样做的好处是，它比金属装甲轻得多。

So the linothorax is about 11 pounds.

所以亚麻胸大约有11磅。

A bronze cuirass of comparable protection would’ve been about 24 to 6 pounds.

具有同等防护能力的青铜胸甲重约 24 至 6 磅。

The chain mail shirt would be about 28, 27 pounds.

锁子甲衬衫重约 28、27 磅。

It’s cooler.

更酷了。

I mean, the Mediterranean is a hot place with the hot sun.

我的意思是，地中海是一个炎热的地方，阳光灿烂。

Even today, a linen shirt is something you wear when you want to be cool.

即使在今天，当你想保持凉爽时，亚麻衬衫仍然是你穿的衣服。

So it’s much lighter, that gives your troops greater endurance on the battlefield.

因此它更轻，可以让您的部队在战场上具有更大的耐力。

They can run farther, fight longer.

他们可以跑得更远，战斗得更久。

It’s cheaper.

更便宜。

You don’t need a blacksmith who’s a specialist to make it.

您不需要专业的铁匠来制作它。

54:46 In fact, probably, this is interesting, any woman in the ancient world could have made one of these because they were the ones who spun thread and sewed it into fabric.

事实上，这可能很有趣，古代世界的任何妇女都可以制作其中一件，因为她们是纺线并将其缝成织物的人。

So I can easily see in a household a mother making this for her son, a wife making it for her husband.

所以我很容易在一个家庭中看到母亲为她的儿子做这个，妻子为她的丈夫做这个。

So it’s a form of armor you could have made domestically that would’ve been maybe not the greatest armor, but pretty good, pretty comparable to bronze armor.

所以这是一种你可以在国内制造的盔甲，它可能不是最好的盔甲，但相当不错，可以与青铜盔甲相媲美。

And it’s amazing that you used all the materials they had at the time and none of the modern techniques, but I should probably say, maybe you can speak to that, they were probably much better at doing that than you are, right?

令人惊讶的是，你使用了他们当时拥有的所有材料，却没有使用任何现代技术，但我可能应该说，也许你可以说，他们可能比你做得更好，对吧？

55:14 Because again, generational, it’s a skill.

因为，对于一代人来说，这是一种技能。

It’s a skill that probably has practiced across decades, across centuries [inaudible 00:55:32].

这项技能可能已经练习了几十年、几个世纪了 [听不清 00:55:32]。

I mean, in terms of producing the fabric, I’m sure they could do it 10 times faster than we could just, that’s a speed thing, but it’s still incredibly labor-intensive where I think there’s a big difference between our reconstruction and ancient ones is in the glue.

我的意思是，就生产织物而言，我确信他们可以比我们快 10 倍，这是一个速度问题，但它仍然是令人难以置信的劳动密集型，我认为我们的重建和古代重建之间的很大区别在于胶水。

55:32 So we ended up using a kind of least common denominator glue.

所以我们最终使用了一种最小公分母胶水。

We used rabbit glue because it would’ve been available anywhere and it’s cheap.

我们使用兔胶，因为它随处可见，而且价格便宜。

55:55 But in the ancient world, they did have basically the equivalent of super glues.

但在古代世界，他们确实拥有基本上相当于强力胶的东西。

I mean, we found, for example, a helmets that were fished out river in Germany that had metal parts glued together that after 2,000 years of immersion and water were still glued together.

我的意思是，例如，我们发现了一个在德国河里打捞上来的头盔，其金属部件粘在一起，经过 2000 年的浸泡和水仍然粘在一起。

So they had some great glues.

所以他们有一些很棒的胶水。

We just don’t know what the recipes for them were.

我们只是不知道它们的食谱是什么。

So we went the opposite tack and said, “Well, we’re just going to make something that we know they could have made.” So it was at least this good, you know what I’m saying?

所以我们采取了相反的策略并说：“好吧，我们只是要做一些我们知道他们可以做的事情。”所以至少是这样好，你知道我在说什么吗？

But actually, this is a materials thing, but I think glue, aside from helping glue things together, it can also be a thing that serves as armor.

但实际上，这是一个材料的东西，但我认为胶水，除了帮助把东西粘合在一起之外，它还可以是一个充当盔甲的东西。

56:22 So if you glue things correctly, the way it permeates the material that is gluing, can strengthen the material…

因此，如果你正确地粘合东西，它渗透到正在粘合的材料中的方式可以增强材料......

Yes.

是的。

…

……

56:44 the integrity of the material.

材料的完整性。

That’s an art and the size probably that they understood deeply.

这可能是他们深刻理解的一门艺术和规模。

The process of lamination did add something.

层压过程确实增加了一些东西。

56:48 So there’s actually a huge debate among scholars and actually a sort of amateur archeologist that was this linothorax thing glued together or was it simply sewn together?

因此，学者们和业余考古学家之间实际上存在一场巨大的争论，即这个亚麻胸动物是粘在一起的还是只是缝合在一起的？

Was it composite, partially linen, partially leather, or other materials?

是复合材料、部分亚麻、部分皮革还是其他材料？

And my honest answer is I think it’s all of the above, because again, every piece of armor in the ancient world was an individual creation.

我诚实的回答是，我认为以上都是，因为古代世界的每一件盔甲都是个人的创造。

57:11 So I think if you had some spare leather, you put that in.

所以我想如果你有一些备用皮革，你可以把它放进去。

If you wanted to make one that was just sewn together, or even quilted stuffed with stuff you do that, maybe you were good at gluing stuff, you use that.

如果你想做一个只是缝在一起的，或者甚至是用填充物填充的东西，你就这样做，也许你擅长粘合东西，你就用它。

So I think there’s no one answer.

所以我认为没有人可以回答。

We investigated one possibility because we just had limited time and money and resources, but I think all these other things existed at the same time and we’re variants of it.

我们研究了一种可能性，因为我们的时间、金钱和资源有限，但我认为所有其他事情同时存在，而我们是它的变体。

Just as a small aside, I just think this is a fascinating journey you went on.

顺便说一句，我只是认为这是一次令人着迷的旅程。

57:34 I love it.

我喜欢它。

Sort of answering really important questions about, in this case, armor about military equipment and technology that archeologists can’t answer by using all the literary, so all the sources you can to understand what it looked like, what were the materials, using the materials at the time, and actually doing ballistic testing.

在这种情况下，回答关于军事装备和技术的盔甲的真正重要问题，考古学家无法通过使用所有文献来回答，因此你可以使用所有资源来了解它的样子，材料是什么，当时使用的材料，以及实际进行弹道测试。

It’s really cool.

真的很酷。

It’s really cool that you see that there’s a hole in the literature and nobody studied it, and going hard and doing it the right way to sort of uncover this.

很酷的是，你发现文献中存在一个漏洞，但没有人研究它，并且努力并以正确的方式发现这个漏洞。

I don’t know, I think it’s an amazing mystery about the ancient world.

我不知道，我认为这是古代世界的一个令人惊奇的谜团。

I mean, shifting from just sort of Roman history in general to my research that I’ve done as a scholar, the theme that runs throughout my scholarship is practical stuff.

我的意思是，从一般的罗马历史转向我作为学者所做的研究，贯穿我学术研究的主题是实用的东西。

58:18 I’m interested, how did this actually work in the ancient world?

我很感兴趣，这在古代世界是如何运作的？

So there’s people who are much more theoretical, who look at the symbolic meaning of something.

所以有些人更加理论化，他们关注事物的象征意义。

I’m simpler.

我比较简单。

I just want to know how did this work?

我只是想知道这是如何运作的？

So almost all of my books that I’ve written, have started with some just how did something work, and I’m trying to just figure out that aspect of it, and that’s just, maybe it’s a personality thing.

所以我写的几乎所有的书都是从一些事情如何运作开始的，我试图弄清楚它的这个方面，也许这是一个个性的问题。

58:48 I also have a sciency background, so I think I’ve used a lot of that.

我也有科学背景，所以我想我已经使用了很多。

Even though I’m a humanist and a historian, I’ve used a lot of hard science in my work.

尽管我是一名人文主义者和历史学家，但我在工作中使用了大量硬科学。

I did a book on floods where I had to get really heavy into vectors of disease and hydraulics and engineering and all that stuff, and I think, again, having that sort of hard science combined with a humanist background, helps with those sorts of projects.

我写了一本关于洪水的书，其中我必须非常深入地研究疾病、水力学和工程学以及所有这些东西的载体，我再次认为，将这种硬科学与人文主义背景相结合，有助于完成这些项目。

Well, like you said, I think the details help you understand deeply the big picture of history.

嗯，就像你说的，我认为细节可以帮助你深入了解历史的大局。

59:12 And I mean, Alexander the Great wore this thing.

我的意思是，亚历山大大帝就穿过这个东西。

Yeah.

是的。

This is-

这是——

And I should say by the way, it does drop out of use around Roman times.

顺便说一句，它确实在罗马时代就不再使用了。

59:20 And I think what’s going on there is technology that with bronze, it’s hard to keep a sharp edge on things, but once you get into metals, which approximate steel, you can get sharper, and a key factor to penetrating fabric is the edge on the arrowhead.

我认为正在发生的技术是，使用青铜，很难在物体上保持锋利的边缘，但是一旦进入金属（类似于钢），你就会变得更锋利，而穿透织物的关键因素是箭头上的边缘。

59:43 So as soon as you start to get something more like a razor edge, it’s going to go through it more easily.

因此，一旦你开始得到更像剃刀边缘的东西，它就会更容易穿过它。

Also, there’s changes in the bows that are being used.

此外，所使用的弓也发生了变化。

You start to get eastern horse archers showing up with composite bows, which are much more powerful.

你开始看到东方弓骑兵带着复合弓出现，这种弓的威力要强大得多。

And so, it just becomes outdated as frontline military equipment.

因此，它作为前线军事装备已经过时了。

What’s interesting is by the Roman period, people are still wearing it, but it’s now things like when I go hunting, if I’m hunting lions, I wear this.

有趣的是，到了罗马时期，人们仍然戴着它，但现在就像我去打猎时，如果我在猎狮子，我就戴着它。

There’s an actual source that says, “It’s really good for hunting dangerous big cats because it catches their teeth and stops them from penetrating.

有一个真实的消息来源说：“这对于狩猎危险的大型猫科动物非常有用，因为它可以抓住它们的牙齿并阻止它们刺入。

One emperor wears one of these under his toga.

一位皇帝在他的长袍下穿着其中一件。

It’s kind of like a, not bulletproof vest, but stab proof vest.

它有点像不是防弹背心，而是防刺背心。

So again…

那么再次……

Awesome.

太棒了。

…

……

1:00:22 it’s not to fight in the frontline of legions, but it’ll protect him from somebody trying to assassinate him.

这不是在军团的前线作战，但它会保护他免受试图暗杀他的人的侵害。

So it still has those uses where you’re not up against top line military equipment

所以它仍然有那些你无法对抗顶级军事装备的用途

To honor aforementioned undergraduate student who loves Alexander the Great, we must absolutely talk about Alexander the Great for a little bit.

为了向前面提到的热爱亚历山大大帝的本科生致敬，我们绝对必须谈谈亚历山大大帝。

1:00:33 Why was he successful, do you think, as a conqueror, probably one of the greatest conquerors in the history of humanity?

您认为，作为一个征服者，他为什么会成功？他可能是人类历史上最伟大的征服者之一？

Yeah, and I mean, that is then he one of the greatest heroes or one of the greatest villains in humanity, too.

是的，我的意思是，那他就是人类最伟大的英雄之一，或者说是人类最伟大的恶棍之一。

1:00:49 It’s like Julius Caesar.

就像朱利叶斯·凯撒一样。

He’s famous for conquering Gaul.

他因征服高卢而闻名。

Well, about a million people were killed and a million enslaved in that.

嗯，大约有一百万人被杀，一百万人被奴役。

So does it make him a horrible person or one of our heroes?

那么这会让他成为一个可怕的人还是我们的英雄之一？

1:01:04 But Alexander is a combination of two things, one is he really just was a skilled individual, and he was one of those guys who had it all.

但亚历山大是两件事的结合，一是他确实是一个技术精湛的人，而且他是拥有这一切的人之一。

He was smart, he was athletic, and he was supremely charismatic.

他很聪明，很有运动天赋，而且极具魅力。

I mean, it’s obviously one of these people that would walk into a room and everyone just kind of gravitates to him.

我的意思是，很明显，其中一个人走进一个房间，每个人都会被他吸引。

He had that magic that made him an effective leader.

他具有使他成为有效领导者的魔力。

1:01:25 And secondly, he was lucky because it wasn’t all him.

其次，他很幸运，因为这不是他的全部。

He inherited a system created by his father, Philip II.

他继承了其父亲腓力二世创建的制度。

So he was in the right time at the right place and had this instrument placed in his hands, and then he had the intelligence and the charisma to go use it.

所以他在正确的时间、正确的地点将这个工具放在了他的手中，然后他就有了智慧和魅力去使用它。

So it’s one of these coming together of different things, but often his father’s contribution, I think, is not recognized as much as it is.

所以这是不同事物的结合之一，但我认为，他父亲的贡献往往没有得到应有的认可。

1:01:52 It’s his father who reformed the Macedonian army, who came up with that system of equipping them with the sarissa, this extra long spear that made them really effective, created the mixed army.

是他的父亲改革了马其顿军队，提出了为他们配备萨里萨（sarissa）的系统，这种超长的矛使他们真正有效，创造了混合军队。

So one of the keys to Alexander’s successes, in a tactical sense, is that his army was composed of different elements: heavy cavalry, light cavalry, heavy infantry, light infantry, missile troops, and he understand that he can use these in different and flexible ways on the battlefield; whereas a lot of warfare before then had just been, you line up, two sides smashed together.

因此，从战术意义上来说，亚历山大成功的关键之一是他的军队由不同的元素组成：重骑兵、轻骑兵、重步兵、轻步兵、导弹部队，他知道他可以在战场上以不同且灵活的方式使用这些部队；而在此之前的许多战争都是，你排成一队，双方就打在一起。

1:02:25 So he did clever things with this army that was a better tool than others did.

所以他用这支军队做了一些聪明的事情，这是比其他人更好的工具。

And then, he was just supremely ambitious.

然后，他野心勃勃。

I mean, he cared about his fame, which I guess his ego, but he clearly cared about that more than he did about things like money.

我的意思是，他关心他的名声，我猜这是他的自负，但他显然比金钱之类的东西更关心这一点。

He was indifferent to that, and he did have a grand vision.

他对此并不在意，他确实有远大的愿景。

So he did have this vision of trying to unite the world, both politically under his control, but also culturally, and this is an interesting thing.

所以他确实有试图团结世界的愿景，无论是在政治上还是在文化上都在他的控制之下，这是一件有趣的事情。

1:02:55 So he was very open, in fact, insistent of trying to meld together the best elements of all the different cultures.

事实上，他非常开放，坚持尝试将所有不同文化的最佳元素融合在一起。

So he, himself, was a Macedonian, but he admired Greek culture.

所以他本人是马其顿人，但他钦佩希腊文化。

So he pretty much adopted Greek culture as his own.

所以他几乎把希腊文化当作自己的文化。

When he conquers Persia, he starts adapting elements of Persian culture.

当他征服波斯时，他开始采用波斯文化的元素。

He dresses in Persian clothing.

他穿着波斯服装。

He marries a Persian woman.

他娶了一个波斯女人。

He sort of forces thousands of his troops to marry local women.

他强迫他的数千名士兵与当地妇女结婚。

He appoints Persians to positions of power.

他任命波斯人担任权力职务。

He integrates Persian units into his military.

他将波斯部队整合到他的军队中。

He really wanted to fuse all these things together.

他真的很想把所有这些东西融合在一起。

And some people see this as a very enlightened vision that, “Oh, he’s not just, I want to conquer people and now they’re my slaves,” that he was really trying to create this one culture that was sort of the best of everything.

有些人认为这是一个非常开明的愿景，“哦，他不仅仅是，我想征服人们，现在他们是我的奴隶”，他真的在努力创造这种最好的文化。

Others see it, of course, as a form of cultural imperialism.

当然，其他人则将其视为文化帝国主义的一种形式。

You’re destroying other cultures and trying to warp or twist them into something, but what I think is interesting is that this vision he had of uniting cultures creates very problematic tensions among his own followers because the-

你正在摧毁其他文化，并试图将它们扭曲或扭曲成某种东西，但我认为有趣的是，他所拥有的统一文化的愿景在他自己的追随者之间造成了非常有问题的紧张关系，因为——

1:04:00 Tensions among his own followers, because the Macedonians, his original troops, did not like this on the whole.

他自己的追随者之间关系紧张，因为他原来的部队马其顿人总体上不喜欢这样。

They wanted the old model where we conquer you, you’re our slaves.

他们想要的是我们征服你的旧模式，你是我们的奴隶。

We don’t want to share stuff with you.

我们不想与您分享东西。

We don’t want you joining us in the army.

我们不希望你加入我们的军队。

We don’t want you appointed to positions of power.

我们不希望你被任命担任权力职位。

We are your conquerors and that’s it.

我们是你的征服者，仅此而已。

And so, Alexander had to deal with a lot of friction from his own oldest, most loyal elements at the way he was being in their eyes, too generous to the conquered.

因此，亚历山大不得不应对来自他自己最古老、最忠诚的成员的许多摩擦，因为他在他们眼中对被征服者过于慷慨。

1:04:31 So Alexander is one of these interesting personalities because every generation sees him in a new light and focuses on different things.

所以亚历山大是这些有趣的人物之一，因为每一代人都以新的眼光看待他并关注不同的事情。

So for some, he’s this enlightened visionary who was taught by Aristotle, the Greek philosopher, and they say, “Well, this influenced him.” Others see him as an egomaniacal warmonger, just I’m out to kill and gain glory.

因此，对于某些人来说，他是一位受到希腊哲学家亚里士多德教导的开明远见卓识的人，他们说，“嗯，这影响了他。”其他人认为他是一个自大狂的战争贩子，而我只是为了杀人并获得荣耀。

There was a book a couple of decades ago, it says, “Oh, he’s just an alcoholic,” which he probably was.

几十年前有一本书，上面写着，“哦，他只是一个酒鬼”，他可能就是这样。

Yeah.

是的。

So you get all these competing images, and the great thing is, we don’t really know what the true Alexander was or what his motivations were.

所以你得到了所有这些相互竞争的图像，最棒的是，我们并不真正知道真正的亚历山大是什么或者他的动机是什么。

It’s a mixed message.

这是一个复杂的信息。

Why do you think the Roman Empire lasted while the Greek Empire as the Alexander expanded, did not?

你认为为什么罗马帝国能够持续存在，而希腊帝国随着亚历山大的扩张却没有持续下去？

That’s a clear answer.

这是一个明确的答案。

1:05:21 So Alexander’s Empire fragmented the moment he died.

因此，亚历山大的帝国在他死后就四分五裂了。

And so his empire was all about personal loyalty.

因此，他的帝国完全取决于个人忠诚。

It was his charisma holding it together, his personality.

是他的魅力、他的个性将这一切凝聚在一起。

And he completely failed to create a structure so that it would continue after his death.

他完全没能创造出一个结构，让这个结构在他死后继续下去。

And of course, he died young.

当然，他英年早逝。

He didn’t think he would die when he did, but still, you should put something in place.

他不认为自己会死，但你仍然应该采取一些措施。

1:05:44 So his was a flash in the pan.

所以他的做法只是昙花一现。

It was, he had this spectacular conquest in 10 years.

是的，他用了10年的时间，取得了如此惊人的征服。

He conquered what was then most of the known world, but he had no permanent structure in place.

他征服了当时已知世界的大部分地区，但他没有永久的结构。

He didn’t really deal with the issue of succession.

他并没有真正处理过继承问题。

It fell apart instantly.

它立即崩溃了。

The Romans are much more about building a structure.

罗马人更注重建造结构。

I mean, as we talked about a little, they were very good about incorporating the people they conquered into the Roman project.

我的意思是，正如我们谈到的，他们非常善于将他们征服的人民纳入罗马计划。

I mean, they’re oppressive, they’re imperialistic as well.

我的意思是，他们是压迫性的，他们也是帝国主义的。

Let’s not whitewash them.

我们不要粉饰他们。

I mean, they had moments when they would just wipe out entire cities.

我的意思是，他们有时会摧毁整个城市。

But on the whole, they were much more about trying to bring people into the Roman world.

但总体而言，他们更多的是试图将人们带入罗马世界。

And I think that was one of their strengths, is that they were open to integration and bringing in different people to keep rejuvenating themselves.

我认为这是他们的优势之一，那就是他们对融合持开放态度，并引进不同的人来不断恢复活力。

One of the most influential developments from the Roman Republic was their legal system.

罗马共和国最有影响力的发展之一是其法律体系。

1:06:34 And as you mentioned, it’s one of the things that still lasted to this day in many of its elements.

正如你所提到的，它的许多元素至今仍然存在。

So it started with the Twelve Tables in 451 BC.

事情是从公元前 451 年的《十二铜表法》开始的。

Can you just speak to this legal system and the Twelve Tables?

您能简单谈谈这个法律体系和《十二铜表法》吗？

Yeah.

是的。

1:06:51 I mean, Roman law is one of their most significant, maybe the most significant legacy they have on the modern world.

我的意思是，罗马法是他们最重要的遗产之一，也许是他们对现代世界最重要的遗产。

So I mean, just to start at that end of it, something like 90% of the world uses a legal system, which is either directly or indirectly derived from the Roman one.

所以我的意思是，从这一点开始，世界上大约 90% 的人都使用直接或间接源自罗马法律体系的法律体系。

So even countries that you wouldn’t think are really using Roman law, kind of are, because all the terminology, all that comes from Roman law.

因此，即使您认为没有真正使用罗马法的国家，也确实是这样，因为所有术语都来自罗马法。

And the Romans, their first law code was this thing, the Twelve Tables.

而罗马人，他们的第一部法典就是《十二铜表法》。

So this is way back in the middle republic and it was a typical early law code.

这可以追溯到共和国中期，这是一部典型的早期法典。

So most of the stuff it concerns are agricultural concerns.

所以它关注的大部分内容都是农业问题。

So if I have a tree and its fruit drops onto your property, who owns the fruit?

那么，如果我有一棵树，它的果实掉落到你的财产上，那么谁拥有这些果实？

If my cow wanders into your field and eats your grain, am I responsible?

如果我的牛走进你的田地并吃了你的谷物，我有责任吗？

I mean, I love these early law codes that are all about this farmer problems.

我的意思是，我喜欢这些早期的法律法规，它们都是关于农民问题的。

1:07:45 But law codes are hugely important because you need a law code to enable people to live in groups.

但法律法规非常重要，因为您需要法律法规才能使人们能够群体生活。

So they’re the transitional thing that lets human beings live together without just resorting to anarchy.

因此，它们是让人类共同生活而不必诉诸无政府状态的过渡性事物。

And most of the early law codes are agricultural, like Hammurabi’s Code in Mesopotamia.

大多数早期的法典都是农业法典，例如美索不达米亚的汉谟拉比法典。

Most of them are retaliatory, meaning eye for an eye type justice.

大多数都是报复性的，意思是以眼还眼式的正义。

So you do something to me, it gets done to you.

所以你对我做某事，它也会对你做。

But they’re this necessary precondition for civilization, I would say, and the Twelve Tables is that.

但我想说，它们是文明的必要先决条件，而《十二铜表》就是这样。

It’s a crude law code.

这是一部粗略的法律法规。

It has a lot of goofy stuff in it.

它里面有很多愚蠢的东西。

It has things about if you use magic, this is the punishment, but it’s that basic agrarian society law code.

它有关于如果你使用魔法，这就是惩罚，但这是基本的农业社会法典。

Now, that’s typical in many societies.

现在，这在许多社会中都很常见。

Where the Romans are different is, they keep going.

罗马人的不同之处在于，他们不断前进。

They keep developing their law code.

他们不断制定自己的法律法规。

And by the late republic, the Romans just get really into legal stuff.

到共和国晚期，罗马人才真正涉足法律领域。

1:08:41 I don’t know why, but the Romans are very methodical organized people.

我不知道为什么，但罗马人是非常有条理、有组织的人。

So maybe this has something to do with it.

所以也许这与它有关。

But their law code just keeps getting more and more complicated and keeps expanding to different areas.

但他们的法律法规却变得越来越复杂，并且不断扩展到不同的领域。

And they start to get jurists who write sort of theoretical things about Roman law.

他们开始聘请法学家撰写有关罗马法的理论文章。

And eventually, it becomes this huge body both of cases and comments on those cases and of actual laws.

最终，它成为一个庞大的案件和对这些案件的评论以及实际法律的机构。

And in the 6th century AD, so the 500s, the Roman Emperor, Justinian, who is an emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire by this point, the Byzantine Empire, compiles all this together into something that today, we just loosely called Justinian’s Code of Roman law, and that survives.

在公元 6 世纪，即 500 年代，罗马皇帝查士丁尼（此时已是东罗马帝国拜占庭帝国的皇帝）将所有这些内容汇编成今天我们笼统地称为查士丁尼罗马法典的内容，并得以保留。

And so that becomes the basis for almost all the legal systems around the world and it’s very complicated.

因此，这成为世界上几乎所有法律体系的基础，而且非常复杂。

And Roman law, I think is really fun.

我认为罗马法真的很有趣。

Because on the one hand, it’s really dry, but it also preserves these wonderful little vignettes of daily life.

因为一方面，它真的很干燥，但它也保留了日常生活中这些美妙的小插曲。

So you get these great, just entertaining law cases.

所以你会得到这些很棒的、有趣的法律案件。

1:09:42 One of my favorite, and this may not even be a real case, this might be a hypothetical that they would use to train Romans or law students, is one day, a man sends a slave to the barber to get a shave.

我最喜欢的一个，这甚至可能不是一个真实的案例，这可能是他们用来训练罗马人或法律学生的假设，是有一天，一个男人派一个奴隶到理发师那里刮胡子。

And the barber shop is adjacent to an athletic field and two guys are on the athletic field throwing a ball back and forth.

理发店毗邻一个运动场，两个人正在运动场上来回投球。

And one of them throws the ball badly, the other guy fails to catch it.

其中一个人把球扔得很糟糕，另一个人没能接住球。

The ball flies into the barber shop, hits the hand of the barber, cuts the slave’s throat, he dies.

球飞进理发店，击中理发师的手，割断了奴隶的喉咙，他死了。

Who’s liable under Roman law?

根据罗马法，谁负有责任？

Is it the athlete one who threw the ball badly?

是那个投球不好的运动员吗？

Is it athlete two who failed to catch it?

是运动员二号没接住吗？

Is it the barber who actually cut the slave’s throat?

真正割断奴隶喉咙的是理发师吗？

Is it the owner of the slave for being stupid enough to send his slave to get a shave in a place adjacent to a playing field?

难道奴隶的主人愚蠢到让他的奴隶去靠近运动场的地方刮胡子吗？

Or is it the Roman state rezoning a barber shop next to an athletic field?

或者是罗马政府在运动场旁边重新规划了一家理发店？

What do you think?

你觉得怎么样？

Well, do they resolve the complexity of that with the right answer?

好吧，他们能用正确的答案解决这个复杂的问题吗？

We don’t have the answer.

我们没有答案。

We don’t have the answer.

我们没有答案。

It’s a case without the answer.

这是一个没有答案的案例。

1:10:41 We have various jurists commenting on this one, but we don’t have what was actually ruled.

我们有不同的法学家对此发表评论，但我们没有实际的裁决。

But it’s just a great little sort of vignette.

但这只是一个很棒的小插曲。

And that’s how complicated Roman law got, that it was dealing with these weird, esoteric questions.

这就是罗马法变得多么复杂的原因，它正在处理这些奇怪、深奥的问题。

There’s another one where a cow gets loose and runs into an apartment building, goes up onto the roof and crashes down three stories into a bar on the ground floor, and kicks open the taps to the wine jug and all the wine flows out.

还有一次，一头牛挣脱束缚，跑进一栋公寓楼，爬上屋顶，从三层楼坠落到底层的酒吧，然后踢开酒壶的水龙头，所有的酒都流了出来。

Who’s at fault?

谁有错？

I mean, this seems to have happened, as crazy as it sounds.

我的意思是，这似乎已经发生了，尽管听起来很疯狂。

And Roman testamentary law is great.

罗马遗嘱法是伟大的。

I mean, something like 20% of Roman law has to do with wills and what you do with the will and what makes a will valid.

我的意思是，大约 20% 的罗马法与遗嘱、如何处理遗嘱以及如何使遗嘱有效有关。

You have to have seven witnesses and you have to have a guy named, the liber [inaudible 01:11:31] to witness it, and the witnesses have to be adult men who can’t be blind and all this other stuff.

你必须有七个证人，你必须有一个名叫自由人的人[听不清 01:11:31] 来见证这一点，而且证人必须是不能失明的成年男子以及所有其他东西。

1:11:36 So it’s just great.

所以这真是太棒了。

It’s fun to mess around in this, but it always contains these little nuggets about what happens.

搞乱这件事很有趣，但它总是包含一些关于发生的事情的小金块。

I mentioned I wrote a book on floods.

我提到我写了一本关于洪水的书。

And there were all these law cases about if a flood strikes the city and picks up my piece of furniture in my apartment building and carries it out the door and deposits it in another apartment building, does that guy now own my furniture because it’s now legally within his apartment?

所有这些法律案件都是关于如果洪水袭击城市并捡起我公寓楼中的一件家具并将其带出门并将其存放在另一栋公寓楼中，那么那个人现在是否拥有我的家具，因为它现在合法地位于他的公寓内？

Or can I go in there and repossess it because the flood took it out of my apartment?

或者我可以进去重新收回它，因为洪水把它从我的公寓里冲走了？

This is the stuff law is handled and that’s how sophisticated Roman law got.

这就是法律所处理的内容，这就是罗马法的复杂程度。

Did corrupt, unfair things seep into the law?

腐败、不公平的事情是否渗透到了法律中？

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

1:12:11 I mean, it’s biased in favor of the wealthy, obviously.

我的意思是，显然它偏向于富人。

And I mean, Roman law cases are interesting because they became linked to politics.

我的意思是，罗马法案件很有趣，因为它们与政治联系在一起。

So one of the way that politicians, up and coming politicians, aspiring politicians could sort of make their name or become famous was by either prosecuting or defending people in Roman law courts.

因此，政治家、崭露头角的政治家、有抱负的政治家可以成名或出名的方式之一就是在罗马法庭上起诉或为人民辩护。

And especially during the late Roman Republic, you get a lot of really sensational, what today we’d call celebrity law cases.

尤其是在罗马共和国晚期，你会遇到很多非常轰动的案件，今天我们称之为名人法律案件。

So this is where some of the biggest politicians were accused of very melodramatic kinds of things.

因此，一些最大的政客被指控做出了非常戏剧化的事情。

And I mean, the most famous Roman order of all time, Cicero, is a guy who made his entire career in the law courts.

我的意思是，有史以来最著名的罗马骑士团西塞罗是一个在法庭上度过了整个职业生涯的人。

And that’s how he made his reputation, was able to parlay that into political power and eventually was elected to the highest office in the Roman government.

这就是他赢得声誉的方式，能够将其转化为政治权力，并最终被选为罗马政府的最高职位。

But it’s purely because of his skill, his facility, using words at giving speeches in public.

但这纯粹是因为他在公开演讲时的技巧和技巧。

So they loved the puzzle and the game of law, the sort of untangling really complicated legal situations and coming up with new laws that help you tangle and untangle the situations.

因此，他们喜欢解谜和法律游戏，喜欢解开真正复杂的法律局势，并提出新的法律来帮助你解决和理清局势。

Yes.

是的。

1:13:28 And law cases, again, especially in the late republic, also became a form of public spectacle.

法律案件也再次成为一种公共奇观，尤其是在共和国晚期。

Right.

对。

So Rome did not have law courts in a building locked away.

因此，罗马并没有在封闭的建筑中设立法院。

1:13:33 A lot of these cases were held in the Roman Forum in the open, and audiences would just come to be entertained.

很多这样的案件都是在罗马广场公开举行的，观众只是来欣赏的。

And the people presenting the speeches, they were playing as much to this audience as they were to let’s say, the jury or a judge.

发表演讲的人，他们在向观众表演，就像他们在向陪审团或法官表演一样。

And that became a big part of the cases.

这成为案件的重要组成部分。

So that’s all tied up in the Roman orator too.

所以这也与罗马演说家有关。

So we’re talking a bit about the details of the laws.

所以我们正在讨论一些法律的细节。

1:13:57 Is there some big picture laws that are new innovations or profound things like all Roman citizens are equal before the law, founding fathers type in the United States, in the western world, these big legal ideas?

是否有一些大局法律是新的创新或深刻的东西，比如所有罗马公民在法律面前人人平等，在美国、在西方世界，这些伟大的法律理念？

I think maybe one of the things that was really stressed in Roman law early on, even as early as the Twelve Tables, is the notion of Roman citizenship.

我认为罗马法早期（甚至早在《十二铜表法》）中真正强调的事情之一也许就是罗马公民权的概念。

1:14:17 So if you were a Roman citizen, it came with a set of both privileges and obligations.

因此，如果您是罗马公民，就拥有一系列特权和义务。

So the obligations where you’re supposed to fight in the Army, you were supposed to vote in elections.

因此，你应该在军队中战斗的义务，你应该在选举中投票。

The privileges were, you had the protection of Roman law.

特权是，你受到罗马法的保护。

And at least in theory, if not in practice, everybody was equal under that law.

至少在理论上，如果不是在实践中，根据该法律，每个人都是平等的。

Now of course, keep in mind, we’re talking about men here.

当然，请记住，我们在这里谈论的是男人。

And even at the height of the Roman Empire, so let’s say second century AD, there were about 50 million human beings living within the boundaries of the Roman Empire, maybe 6 million were actual citizens.

即使在罗马帝国的鼎盛时期，比如说公元二世纪，也有大约 5000 万人生活在罗马帝国境内，其中可能有 600 万人是真正的公民。

So we tend to go, “Oh, it’s so great.

所以我们往往会说：“哦，太棒了。

If you’re a citizen, you have all these things.”

如果你是公民，你就拥有所有这些东西。”

1:15:08 Well, adult free men who are not slaves, who are not resident foreigners, they have this great stuff.

好吧，成年自由人，不是奴隶，不是常住的外国人，他们拥有这些很棒的东西。

And that’s always a tiny minority of all the human beings who existed in this society.

在这个社会中存在的所有人中，这始终是极少数。

But still, the notion, the notion of citizenship is huge.

但公民权这个概念仍然是巨大的。

And citizens, for example, early on, you had to be tried at Rome if you were accused of something.

例如，公民，在早期，如果你被指控犯有某事，你必须在罗马接受审判。

And there’s this very famous moment in Sicily where an abusive governor who’s corrupt is punishing a citizen arbitrarily.

在西西里岛有一个非常著名的时刻，一位腐败的暴虐州长正在任意惩罚公民。

And this person cries out, “Civis Romanus Sum,” meaning, “I am a Roman citizen.” And it really was this hugely loaded statement that that gives me protections.

这个人喊道：“Civis Romanus Sum”，意思是“我是罗马公民”。确实是这个负载巨大的声明给了我保护。

It is wrong for you to do this to me.

你这样对我是不对的。

It’s wrong for you to beat me because I am a citizen and that gives me certain protections.

你打我是不对的，因为我是公民，这给了我一定的保护。

So that notion of citizenship is something that I think, the Romans really emphasize and becomes a legacy to a lot of civilizations today, where citizenship means something.

因此，我认为罗马人真正强调公民身份的概念，并成为当今许多文明的遗产，公民身份在这些文明中具有某种意义。

It’s a special status.

这是一种特殊的状态。

So you mentioned slaves, slavery, that’s something that is common throughout human history.

所以你提到了奴隶，奴隶制，这是人类历史上普遍存在的事情。

1:16:13 What do we know about their relationship with slavery?

我们对他们与奴隶制的关系了解多少？

Well, Roman slavery, a couple of just reminders at the beginning, first of all, it’s not racial slavery.

好吧，罗马奴隶制，一开始就提醒几点，首先，它不是种族奴隶制​​。

1:16:25 So for people in the United States, you tend to think of slavery through this racial lens.

因此，对于美国人来说，您倾向于从种族角度来看待奴隶制。

So slaves in ancient Roman society could be any color, ethnicity, gender, origin, whatever.

因此，古罗马社会的奴隶可以是任何肤色、种族、性别、出身等。

It’s an economic status.

这是一种经济状况。

Now, having said that, slavery is fundamentally horrific to human dignity because it is defining a human being as an object.

话虽如此，奴隶制从根本上来说对人类尊严是可怕的，因为它将人类定义为一个物体。

And very famously, a Roman agricultural writer who’s writing about farms, just as a kind of side says, “On your farm, you have three types of tools.

非常有名的是，一位罗马农业作家在撰写有关农场的文章时，就像一种说法一样，“在你的农场里，你拥有三种类型的工具。

You have dumb tools.” And by dummy, means can’t speak.

你有愚蠢的工具。”而假人，意味着不能说话。

So that’s like shovels, picks, things like this, wagons.

就像铲子、镐、马车之类的东西。

“You have articulate tools which are animals, and you have articulate tools which are human beings, slaves.” And for him, these are all just categories of tools.

“你有动物这样的关节工具，也有人类、奴隶这样的关节工具。”而对他来说，这些都只是工具类别。

It’s so intensely dehumanizing to view people in that way.

以这种方式看待人是非常不人性化的。

1:17:29 So Roman slavery is odd in that it doesn’t have this racial component.

因此，罗马奴隶制很奇怪，因为它没有种族成分。

It’s horrible in the way all slavery is horrible, but the other thing about is it’s not a hard line.

所有奴隶制都是可怕的，但另一件事是这并不是一条强硬路线。

It’s a permeable membrane, and many people move back and forth across it.

它是一层可渗透的膜，许多人在它上面来回移动。

So you have many people in the Roman world who were born a slave who gained their freedom through one means or another.

因此，在罗马世界里有很多人出生时就是奴隶，但通过某种方式获得了自由。

And you have many others who were born free and become slaves.

还有许多生来自由却沦为奴隶的人。

And you have some who go back and forth.

还有一些人来回走动。

There’s a great Roman tombstone of this guy who says, “I was born a free man in Parthia.

这个人的一个伟大的罗马墓碑上写着：“我出生在帕提亚，是一个自由人。

I was enslaved.

我被奴役了。

Then I gained my freedom and I became a teacher or something, and I had a life, and now I’m a Roman citizen.” So it’s this whole back and forth across all these boundaries multiple times.

然后我获得了自由，成为一名教师或其他什么，我有了自己的生活，现在我是罗马公民。”所以这整个过程会多次跨越所有这些边界。

Oh, so there’s probably a process like an economic transaction.

哦，那么可能有一个像经济交易这样的过程。

The most common source of slaves in the Roman world was war.

罗马世界最常见的奴隶来源是战争。

1:18:18 So wherever the Roman army went, in its wake would be literally a train of slave traders.

因此，无论罗马军队走到哪里，后面都会跟着一队奴隶贩子。

So you’re in war, you capture an enemy city, you whack the people over the head, and you turn around if you’re a soldier and you sell them to one of these slave traders that’s following the army around, literally.

所以你在战争中，你占领了一个敌人的城市，你打了人们的头，如果你是一名士兵，你转身把他们卖给一个跟随军队的奴隶贩子，字面意义上的。

So that’s probably the biggest source of slaves.

所以这可能是奴隶的最大来源。

Another big source is just children of slaves or slaves.

另一个重要来源是奴隶或奴隶的孩子。

And some people could literally sell either themselves or their children into slavery due to economic necessity, or privation or something.

由于经济需要、贫困或其他原因，有些人实际上可以将自己或他们的孩子卖为奴隶。

So as terrible as that sounds, a father could sell a child if he needed money.

尽管这听起来很可怕，但如果父亲需要钱，他可以卖掉孩子。

1:19:04 Once you were a slave though, the experience of slavery varied a lot because a lot of the slaves were agricultural slaves.

然而，一旦你成为奴隶，奴隶制的经历就会有很大的不同，因为很多奴隶都是农业奴隶。

So they would work like in the American South, big plantations.

所以他们会像美国南部的大种植园一样工作。

They might be chained.

他们可能被锁链锁着。

They were probably abused.

他们很可能受到虐待。

That’s very similar to slavers as we think of it in let’s say, the Caribbean, South America or the United States prior to the Civil War, that kind of slavery.

这与我们所想象的加勒比地区、南美洲或内战前的美国的奴隶制非常相似，这种奴隶制。

But a lot of Roman slaves were also some of the more skilled people.

但许多罗马奴隶也是一些技术较熟练的人。

And this seems a little weird.

这看起来有点奇怪。

So if you’re a rich person, you have slaves, it’s actually a good investment for you to train your slaves in a profession.

因此，如果你是一个富人，你有奴隶，那么对你的奴隶进行职业培训实际上是一项很好的投资。

So a lot of Roman doctors, scribes, accountants, sort of, all this sort of thing, barbers, were slaves.

所以很多罗马医生、抄写员、会计师、理发师等等都是奴隶。

Because if you train this person, and then they produce a lot of money for you, you get that money.

因为如果你训练这个人，然后他们为你生产很多钱，你就会得到这笔钱。

1:19:57 And those slaves would sometimes be given an incentive to work hard where they could…

这些奴隶有时会受到激励，在力所能及的范围内努力工作……

And this is just sort of an agreement between the master and the slave.

这只是主人和奴隶之间的一种协议。

If they earned a certain amount of money, X amount of money, they could then buy their own freedom from the master.

如果他们赚到一定数量的钱，X数量的钱，他们就可以从主人那里购买自己的自由。

So this was your incentive to work harder if you were trained let’s say, as a doctor.

所以，如果你接受过培训，比如说，作为一名医生，这就是你更加努力工作的动力。

“I work really hard, I can buy myself out of slavery.” Or a lot of masters would free their slaves in their wills.

“我真的很努力工作，我可以让自己摆脱奴隶制。”或者很多主人会按照自己的意愿释放他们的奴隶。

1:20:24 So when they died, they would say, “I manumit this slave and that slave.” So it was a weird institution in that elements were just as horrible as what we think of as slavery and just as exploitative.

因此，当他们死时，他们会说：“我释放了这个奴隶和那个奴隶。”所以这是一个奇怪的制度，其元素与我们所认为的奴隶制和剥削一样可怕。

And like I say, the overall notion of slavery is intensely dehumanizing, but yet, there was this wide range of types of slaves.

就像我说的，奴隶制的整体概念是非常非人性的，但是，奴隶的类型却多种多样。

And the odd thing is, in the city of Rome, many of the worst jobs, so if you’re just a laborer hauling crap around at the docks or things like that, you might well be a free person and a slave would hold a skilled job.

奇怪的是，在罗马城里，有许多最糟糕的工作，所以如果你只是一个在码头拉垃圾之类的工人，你很可能是一个自由人，而奴隶则可能从事一份熟练的工作。

And that seems a little strange or counterintuitive to us, but you see how in the Roman economy it sort of works.

这对我们来说似乎有点奇怪或违反直觉，但你会看到它在罗马经济中是如何运作的。

And that could be one of the things that would be surprising to us coming from the modern day to the ancient world, is just the number of slaves.

从现代到古代世界，奴隶的数量可能是让我们感到惊讶的事情之一。

1:21:08 So you mentioned one of the things we don’t think about is that most of the people are farmers.

所以你提到我们没有考虑到的一件事是大多数人都是农民。

And then the other thing is just the number of slaves.

另一件事就是奴隶的数量。

And there’s a big debate.

还有一场大辩论。

1:21:24 How many slaves were there?

那里有多少奴隶？

What percentage of the populace, let’s say in the city of Rome, were slaves?

比方说在罗马城，有多少人口是奴隶？

And this is something historians like to argue about a lot.

这是历史学家经常争论的问题。

And we keep coming back to this theme of sometimes it’s the little things that illustrate stuff well.

我们不断回到这个主题，有时是小事可以很好地说明事情。

And for slaves, the one that always gets me is some slaves, and these would be sort of the more abused slaves, they would literally put little bronze collars on them with a tag that said, “Hi, my name is Felix.

对于奴隶来说，总是让我着迷的是一些奴隶，这些奴隶是一种更受虐待的奴隶，他们实际上会给他们戴上小青铜项圈，上面写着“嗨，我的名字是菲利克斯。

I’m the slave of so-and-so.

我是某某人的奴隶。

I’ve run away.

我已经逃跑了。

If you catch me, return me to the temple of so-and-so, and you’ll get a reward.”

如果你抓住我，把我送回某某神殿，你就会得到奖励。”

1:21:59 So it’s a dog tag, except this is a human being.

所以这是一个狗牌，只不过这是一个人。

And you can see these in museums.

你可以在博物馆里看到这些。

I mean, you can go to a museum today and see this little bronze collar with a tag on it that’s talking about a human being as if they’re this kind of animal that’s run away.

我的意思是，你今天可以去博物馆看到这个小青铜项圈，上面有一个标签，上面写着一个人，就好像他们是一种逃跑的动物一样。

And this is very telling too.

这也很能说明问题。

We’re talking about Roman law.

我们正在谈论罗马法。

Under Roman law, technically, when a slave runs away, the crime that he’s committing is theft because he’s stolen himself from his master.

根据罗马法，从技术上讲，当奴隶逃跑时，他所犯的罪行就是盗窃，因为他从主人那里偷走了自己。

So again, it’s this very dehumanizing view of it.

再说一遍，这是一种非常非人性的观点。

And just a reminder to people in America thinking about this, we have a certain view and picture to what slavery is, a reminder that all of human history, most of human history has had slaves of all colors, of all religions.

只是提醒美国人思考这个问题，我们对奴隶制是什么有一定的看法和图景，提醒我们整个人类历史，大部分人类历史都曾有过各种肤色、各种宗教的奴隶。

1:22:30 That’s within us, to select a group of people, call them the other, use them as objects, abuse them.

这就是我们内心的选择，选择一群人，称他们为其他人，将他们用作对象，虐待他们。

And I would say, as a person who believes the line between good and evil runs through the heart of every man, all of us, every person listening to this is capable of being owner of a slave if they’re put in the position, of capable of hating the other, of forming the other, of othering other people.

我想说，作为一个相信善与恶之间的界线贯穿每个人、我们所有人的内心的人，每个听到这个的人都有能力成为奴隶的主人，如果他们处于这样的位置，有能力憎恨他人，形成他人，排斥他人。

And we should be very careful not to look ourselves in the mirror and remind ourselves that we’re human.

我们应该非常小心，不要照镜子提醒自己我们也是人。

It’s easy to think, “Okay, well, there’s these slaves and slave owners through history.

人们很容易想到，“好吧，历史上有这些奴隶和奴隶主。

And I would’ve never been one of those.” But just like as we would be farmers, we could be both.

我永远不会成为其中之一。”但就像我们成为农民一样，我们可以两者兼而有之。

If we went back into history, we could be both slaves and slave owners, and all of those are humans.

如果我们回到历史，我们既可以是奴隶，也可以是奴隶主，所有这些都是人类。

I mean, just to build on that, I’d say the othering of others is a morally corrosive thing to do.

我的意思是，在此基础上，我想说，他人的他人是一种道德腐蚀的事情。

Yeah.

是的。

1:23:52 So this fascinating transition between the republic to the empire, can we talk about that?

那么，从共和国到帝国的这种令人着迷的转变，我们可以谈谈吗？

How does the republic fall?

共和国怎么垮台？

Oh, boy.

哦，男孩。

1:24:02 Okay.

好的。

So the Roman Republic on the one hand is incredibly successful.

因此，罗马共和国一方面取得了令人难以置信的成功。

Right?

正确的？

In a short period of time, it’s expanded wildly.

短时间内，就疯狂扩张。

It’s conquered the Mediterranean world.

它征服了地中海世界。

It’s gained tons of wealth.

它获得了大量的财富。

The contradiction here is that Rome’s very success has made almost every group within Roman society deeply unhappy and boiling with resentment.

这里的矛盾在于，罗马的成功几乎让罗马社会的每一个群体都深感不满，怨恨沸腾。

So this is the contradiction.

所以这就是矛盾。

Enormous success on the surface, you end up with this boiling pot of resentment and unhappiness.

表面上取得了巨大的成功，最终你却陷入了怨恨和不幸的沸腾之中。

So let’s break this down.

让我们来分解一下。

Who’s unhappy?

谁不高兴？

Well, the people fighting Rome’s wars, the common farmers who went off to fight.

好吧，那些参加罗马战争的人们，那些出去打仗的普通农民。

They joined the army.

他们参军了。

They went and fought.

他们去战斗。

They’ve come back.

他们回来了。

They’ve seen Rome get wealthy.

他们见证了罗马的富裕。

They’ve seen their generals get wealthy.

他们看到他们的将军变得富有。

They’ve conquered all these areas.

他们已经征服了所有这些领域。

All this money and stuff is flowing back to Rome.

所有这些金钱和物品都流回罗马。

But when they’re discharged from the army, they don’t get that much.

但当他们退伍后，他们并没有得到那么多。

So they feel like, “I spent the best years of my life fighting for my country, I deserve a reward.

所以他们觉得，“我一生中最美好的岁月都在为我的国家而战，我应该得到奖励。

I haven’t gotten it.”

我还没拿到。”

1:25:07 So you have a lot of veterans who are now unemployed or underemployed.

因此，有很多退伍军人现在失业或就业不足。

Many of them have sold their small family farms when they went off to join the army, and now they don’t have them.

他们中的许多人在去参军时卖掉了自己的家庭小农场，现在他们没有了。

So that group’s unhappy, the veterans.

所以退伍军人这个群体不高兴。

You have the aristocrats who on the surface, the ones who are doing well, they’re the politicians and the generals.

你有表面上表现良好的贵族，他们是政客和将军。

But as time goes on, the ones who get the plum appointments, who get the good general ships, starts coming from a smaller and smaller subset of the aristocrats.

但随着时间的推移，那些获得重任、获得优秀将军船只的人开始来自越来越小的贵族群体。

The Scipios and their friends start to dominate.

西庇阿家族和他们的朋友开始占据主导地位。

So you end up where most of the aristocratic class is feeling, “Hey, I’m left out.

所以你最终会遇到大多数贵族阶层的感受，“嘿，我被排除在外了。

I didn’t get what I deserved.” What about the half citizens and the allies?

我没有得到我应得的。”半公民和盟友呢？

The Italians who have fought for Rome, who stayed loyal when Hannibal invaded, they didn’t go over to his side.

为罗马而战的意大利人在汉尼拔入侵时保持忠诚，他们没有站在他一边。

Well, they feel rightfully, “We stayed loyal to Rome.

好吧，他们有正确的感觉，“我们仍然忠于罗马。

We fought for them.

我们为他们而战。

We deserve our reward.

我们应得的回报。

We should be full citizens.” But the Romans are traditional.

我们应该成为正式的公民。”但罗马人是传统的。

They’re conservative.

他们很保守。

They don’t like change.

他们不喜欢改变。

They don’t give them that.

他们不给他们那个。

1:26:07 What about all the slaves?

那么所有的奴隶呢？

Well, they’ve conquered all these foreigners.

好吧，他们已经征服了所有这些外国人。

They’ve sold them.

他们已经把它们卖掉了。

Now, many of them are working these plantations, big plantations owned by rich people that used to be little family farms.

现在，他们中的许多人在这些种植园里工作，这些种植园由富人拥有，以前是小型家庭农场。

The slaves are obviously unhappy.

奴隶们显然很不高兴。

So you end up with a society where it’s incredibly successful by about 100 BC, but almost every group that composes it feels like, “I haven’t shared in the benefits of what’s happened or I’ve been exploited by it.” So they all end up intensely unhappy.

因此，到了公元前 100 年左右，你最终会看到一个社会，它已经取得了令人难以置信的成功，但几乎每个组成它的团体都感觉，“我没有分享所发生的事情的好处，或者我被它剥削了。”所以他们最终都非常不高兴。

And the next 100-year period from 133 to 31 BC is called the Late Roman Republic.

接下来的100年从公元前133年到公元前31年被称为晚期罗马共和国。

And it’s a time of nearly constant internal strife, ultimately culminating in multiple rounds of civil war.

这是一个几乎持续不断的内部冲突的时期，最终导致多轮内战。

1:26:51 So Roman society literally breaks apart, turns on itself, and goes to war with itself over not equitably sharing the benefits of conquest and of empire.

因此，罗马社会确实分裂了，自相矛盾，并因未能公平地分享征服和帝国的利益而陷入战争。

So it’s a lesson about not sharing the benefits of something in a society, but concentrating it in one little group.

因此，这是一个关于不要分享社会中某些事物的好处，而是将其集中在一个小群体中的教训。

And the other thing that happens is among the aristocrats, they start to get more and more ambitious.

发生的另一件事是在贵族中，他们开始变得越来越野心勃勃。

So in the past, there was a lot of ideology of, the state is more important than the person.

所以过去有很多意识形态，国家比人更重要。

If you were a little Roman kid, you would’ve been told these stories of Roman heroes.

如果你是一个罗马小孩子，你就会听说过这些罗马英雄的故事。

And they’re all about self-sacrifice, putting the state before you, about modesty, about these values.

它们都是关于自我牺牲、把国家置于自己之上、关于谦虚、关于这些价值观。

Well, by the late republic, you have a succession of strong men.

好吧，到了共和国晚期，你已经有了一系列的强人。

And it is a chain.

这是一条链条。

So it goes, Marius, Sulla, Pompey, Julius Caesar, where each one pushes the boundaries of the Roman Republic a little bit, pushes at the structures of the institutions of the Republic, and they’re motivated by personal gain.

事情是这样的，马略、苏拉、庞培、凯撒大帝，每个人都在一点点地突破了罗马共和国的边界，推动了共和国的机构结构，他们都是出于个人利益的动机。

They’re putting themselves above the state.

他们把自己置于国家之上。

1:27:59 So at the same time, you have lots of groups unhappy in society, and you get these strong men who are now undermining the institutions, chipping away at the things that have been shared, things holding the state together.

因此，与此同时，社会上有很多不满意的群体，这些强人现在正在破坏机构，削弱已经共享的东西，破坏将国家团结在一起的东西。

And in the end, they just become so ambitious, they’re like, “I don’t care about the state.

最后，他们变得如此雄心勃勃，他们就像，“我不关心国家。

I’m going to try and make myself ruler of Rome.” So I mean, this is going to culminate obviously in Julius Caesar who does succeed in making himself dictator for life of the Roman Republic, which is tantamount to king, and he gets assassinated for it.

我要努力让自己成为罗马的统治者。”所以我的意思是，这显然会在尤利乌斯·凯撒身上达到顶峰，他确实成功地使自己成为罗马共和国的终身独裁者，这相当于国王，但他却因此被暗杀。

But he’s the end point of this progression of people who really undermine the institutions, the republic, through their own personal greed.

但他是这群人的终点，他们通过个人的贪婪真正破坏了制度和共和国。

So the resentment boils and boils and boils, and there’s this person that puts themselves above-

于是怨恨沸腾了，沸腾了，沸腾了，而这个人却把自己置于至高无上的地位——

And they exploit it.

他们利用它。

1:28:48 They’re demagogues.

他们是煽动者。

Yeah.

是的。

They exploit it.

他们利用它。

But Caesar puts himself above the state.

但凯撒将自己置于国家之上。

1:28:50 And that I guess, the Roman people also hate.

我猜罗马人也讨厌这一点。

Well, I mean, it’s a love-hate because Caesar is very successful at playing to the Roman people.

嗯，我的意思是，这是一种又爱又恨的感觉，因为凯撒非常成功地取悦罗马人民。

1:28:58 So he becomes their hero where he says, “I’ll be your champion against the state who doesn’t care about you.” So Caesar will do things where he’ll put on big shows for the people, and it’s cynical.

因此，他成为了他们的英雄，他说：“我将成为你们的捍卫者，对抗那些不关心你们的国家。”所以凯撒会做一些他会为人民上演大型表演的事情，这是愤世嫉俗的。

I mean, he’s doing this to further his own political power, but he’s presenting himself as a populist in essence, even though he aspires to be a dictator.

我的意思是，他这样做是为了增强自己的政治权力，但他本质上将自己表现为民粹主义者，尽管他渴望成为独裁者。

Right?

正确的？

But it’s a way of winning the people’s support because that’s a tool for him and his struggle with other aristocrats.

但这是赢得人民支持的一种方式，因为这是他和他与其他贵族斗争的工具。

So a dictator in populist clothing.

所以是一个披着民粹主义外衣的独裁者。

Yes.

是的。

But he gets-

但他得到——

When convenient.

方便的时候。

1:29:40 Other times, he’ll play to the aristocracy.

其他时候，他会为贵族演奏。

And when he gets assassinated, another civil war explodes?

当他被暗杀时，另一场内战就会爆发？

That’s an interesting moment, because all these things have been leading up to Caesar and it really is a chain of men.

这是一个有趣的时刻，因为所有这些事情都导致了凯撒，而且这确实是一连串的人。

1:29:50 So it starts with this guy, Marius, who was one of the first to start making armies loyal to him, rather than to the state.

因此，事情要从马吕斯这个人开始，他是最早开始让军队忠于他而不是国家的人之一。

That’s a step in the wrong direction.

这是朝着错误方向迈出的一步。

Right?

正确的？

The army should be loyal to the state, not to an individual general.

军队应该效忠国家，而不是效忠个别将军。

They shouldn’t look for him to rewards.

他们不应该寻求他的奖励。

Marius breaks that, makes a precedent.

马吕斯打破了这一点，开创了先例。

One of his protegees is a guy named Sulla.

他的门生之一是一个名叫苏拉的人。

Sulla comes along and he ends up marching on Rome with his army and taking it over.

苏拉出现了，他最终率领军队进军罗马并占领了它。

And he says, “Well, I’m just doing it for the good of the state.” But that’s another precedent.

他说：“好吧，我这样做只是为了国家的利益。”但这是另一个先例。

Now you’ve had someone attacking their own capital city, even if they say they’re doing it for the right reasons.

现在有人攻击自己的首都，即使他们说他们这样做是出于正确的理由。

1:30:31 Then Pompey comes along, and Pompey just breaks all kinds of things.

然后庞培出现了，庞培就打破了各种各样的东西。

He starts holding offices when he’s too young to do so.

当他还太年轻而无法担任职务时，他就开始担任职务。

He raises personal armies from his own wealth.

他用自己的财富组建私人军队。

He disobeys commands.

他不服从命令。

He manipulates commands.

他操纵命令。

He does all kinds of stuff.

他做各种各样的事情。

But in the end, he sides with the Senate when sort of forced.

但最终，他在被迫的情况下站在了参议院一边。

And finally, Caesar comes along and Caesar’s just shamelessly, “No, it’s about me.

最后，凯撒出现了，凯撒只是无耻地说道：“不，这是关于我的。

I’m going to push it.” And he is the one who wins a civil war against the state and Pompey, takes over Rome and says, “Now, I’m going to be dictator.” And dictator is a traditional office in the Roman state, but dictators were limited to no more than six months in power.

我要推动它。”他赢得了一场针对国家和庞培的内战，接管了罗马，并说：“现在，我要成为独裁者了。”而独裁者是罗马国家的传统职位，但独裁者的执政时间被限制为不超过六个月。

And Caesar says, “Well, I’ll be dictator for life,” which of course, is king.

凯撒说：“好吧，我将成为终身独裁者”，这当然是国王。

He gets killed for it.

他因此而被杀。

1:31:17 So Caesar succeeded in taking over the state as one man, but he couldn’t solve the problem.

所以凯撒以一人之力成功地接管了国家，但他无法解决问题。

How do you rule Rome as one person and not get killed for looking like a king?

你如何以一个人的身份统治罗马而不因为看起来像国王而被杀？

That’s the dilemma, the riddle that Caesar leaves behind him.

这就是凯撒留下的困境和谜语。

He did it.

他做到了。

He seize power as one guy, but how do you stay alive?

他作为一个人夺取了权力，但你如何才能活下去呢？

How do you come up with something that the people will accept?

你如何提出人们会接受的东西？

And Caesar did some other things which are bad.

凯撒还做了一些其他不好的事情。

He was arrogant.

他很傲慢。

He didn’t even pretend that the Senate were his equals.

他甚至没有假装参议院与他平等。

He just railroaded them around.

他只是用铁路运送他们。

He didn’t respect them.

他不尊重他们。

He named a month after himself, July, Julius.

他以自己的名字命名了一个月，“七月”，“朱利叶斯”。

He did egotistical things.

他做了一些自私自利的事情。

So that pissed people off.

所以这让人们很生气。

They didn’t like it.

他们不喜欢它。

And when Caesar dies, it’s this interesting moment.

当凯撒去世时，这是一个有趣的时刻。

The Republic is sort of dead by then.

到那时，共和国就已经死了。

You’re going to have a hard time reviving it.

你将很难恢复它。

You’ve broken too many precedents, but there’s a power vacuum now.

你打破了太多先例，但现在出现了权力真空。

Caesar’s gone, what’s going to happen next?

凯撒走了，接下来会发生什么？

1:32:18 And you have a whole group of people who want to be the next Caesar.

有一整群人都想成为下一个凯撒。

So the most obvious is Mark Antony, who is Caesar’s right-hand man, his lieutenant.

所以最明显的是马克·安东尼，他是凯撒的得力助手，他的副官。

He’s a very good general.

他是一位非常好的将军。

He’s very charismatic.

他很有魅力。

Everybody expects Mark Antony to just become the next Caesar.

每个人都期望马克·安东尼成为下一个凯撒。

But there’s also another of Caesar’s lieutenants, a guy named Lepidus, sort of like Antony, but not quite as great as him.

但凯撒的另一位副官，名叫莱必达，有点像安东尼，但不如他那么伟大。

There’s the Senate itself, which wants to reassert its power, kind of become the dominant force in Rome again.

元老院本身想要重申其权力，再次成为罗马的主导力量。

There’s the assassins who killed Caesar, led by Brutus, and another guy, Cassius, they now want to seize control.

有布鲁图斯领导的刺杀凯撒的刺客，还有另一个人卡西乌斯，他们现在想夺取控制权。

And finally, there’s a really weird dark horse candidate to fill this power vacuum.

最后，有一个非常奇怪的黑马候选人来填补这个权力真空。

And that’s Julius Caesar’s grandnephew, who at the time, is a 17-year-old kid named Octavian.

那是朱利叶斯·凯撒的侄孙，当时是一个 17 岁的孩子，名叫奥克塔维安。

Who cares?

谁在乎？

He’s nobody.

他什么都不是。

Absolutely nobody.

绝对没有人。

But when Caesar’s will is opened after his death, so posthumously read in his will, Caesar posthumously…

但是，当凯撒死后打开他的遗嘱时，在他的遗嘱中追读，凯撒死后……

And this is a little weird, posthumously adopts Octavian as his son.

而这就有点奇怪了，死后收养屋大维为儿子。

Now again, who cares?

现在又来了，谁在乎呢？

Antony gets the troops.

安东尼得到了军队。

Antony gets the money.

安东尼得到了钱。

The other people get everything.

其他人得到了一切。

1:33:26 What does Octavian get?

奥克塔维安得到了什么？

He gets to now rename himself, Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus.

他现在将自己改名为盖乌斯·朱利叶斯·凯撒·奥克塔维努斯。

Who cares?

谁在乎？

Well, around the Mediterranean, there’s about 12 legions full of hardened soldiers who are just used to following a guy named Gaius Julius Caesar.

好吧，在地中海周围，大约有 12 个军团，全都是顽强的士兵，他们只是习惯于追随一个名叫盖乌斯·朱利叶斯·凯撒的家伙。

And even though it’s not quite logical, this 18-year-old, he’s now an 18-year-old kid, inherits an army overnight.

尽管这不太合逻辑，但这个18岁的人，他现在是一个18岁的孩子，一夜之间继承了一支军队。

So he becomes a player in this game for power.

于是他就成为了这场权力游戏的参与者。

And the next 30, 40 years is going to be those groups all vying with one another.

未来 30 年、40 年将是这些群体相互竞争的时期。

There’s another candidate too, Pompey’s son.

还有另一位候选人，庞培的儿子。

Pompey was Caesar’s great rival.

庞培是凯撒的伟大对手。

He has a couple of sons.

他有几个儿子。

And one of them, a guy named Sextus Pompey, basically becomes a warlord who seizes control of Sicily, one of the richest provinces, has a whole Navy.

其中一个名叫塞克斯图斯·庞培（Sextus Pompey）的人基本上成为了一个军阀，控制了西西里岛，西西里岛是最富有的省份之一，拥有一支完整的海军。

He’s vying to be one of the successors too.

他也正在争夺成为继任者之一。

So for the next 40 years, it’s as you said, another civil war to see which guy emerges.

因此，在接下来的 40 年里，正如你所说，这是另一场内战，看看谁会出现。

Is it going to be the Senate?

会是参议院吗？

Is it going to be the assassins?

会不会是刺客呢？

Is it going to be Antony?

会是安东尼吗？

Is it going to be Lepidus?

会是莱必达斯吗？

Is it going to be Sextus Pompey?

是塞克斯图斯·庞培吗？

Is it going to be Octavian?

会是奥克塔维安吗？

So now, looking back at all that history, it just feels like history turns on so many interesting accidents.

所以现在，回顾所有的历史，感觉历史上有很多有趣的事故。

1:34:31 Because Octavian later renamed Augustus, turned out to be actually…

因为屋大维后来更名为奥古斯都，原来其实是……

It depends on how you define good, but a good king/emperor, different than Caesar in terms of humility, at least being able to play, not to piss off everybody.

这取决于你如何定义好，但是一个好国王/皇帝，与凯撒不同的是谦虚，至少能玩，而不是得罪所有人。

But it could have been so many other people.

但也可能有很多其他人。

That could have been the fall of Rome.

那可能就是罗马的陷落。

So it’s a fascinating little turn of history.

所以这是一个令人着迷的历史转折。

Maybe Caesar saw something in this individual.

也许凯撒在这个人身上看到了一些东西。

It’s not an accident that he was in the will.

他出现在遗嘱中并非偶然。

Yeah.

是的。

1:35:11 I mean, Caesar clearly did see something in him.

我的意思是，凯撒显然确实在他身上看到了一些东西。

And Octavian, I mean, to cut to the end, is the one who emerges from all that as the victor.

我的意思是，从头到尾，奥克塔维安是从这一切中脱颖而出的胜利者。

We can talk about how he does it, but he’s the one who ends up in the same position as Caesar.

我们可以谈论他是如何做到的，但他是最终处于与凯撒相同地位的人。

It takes him 30 years, but he defeats all the foes.

他用了30年的时间，却战胜了所有的敌人。

He’s the sole guy.

他是唯一的人。

He now faces Caesar’s riddle.

他现在面临着凯撒之谜。

How do you rule Rome as one guy and not get killed?

你如何作为一个人统治罗马而不被杀？

And Octavian, what makes him stand out, what makes him fascinating to me, is he wasn’t a good general.

而奥克塔维安，让他脱颖而出、让我着迷的原因是他不是一个好将军。

In fact, he was a terrible general.

事实上，他是一位可怕的将军。

He lost almost every battle he commanded.

他指挥的每一场战斗几乎都失败了。

But what he is, is he’s politically savvy and he’s very good at what today we would call, manipulation of your public image and propaganda.

但他的本质是，他具有政治头脑，并且非常擅长我们今天所说的操纵公众形象和宣传。

So he basically defeats Mark Antony partially by waging a propaganda war against him.

因此，他基本上是通过对马克·安东尼发动宣传战来部分击败他的。

1:36:00 Antony partially by waging a propaganda war against him.

安东尼的部分原因是对他发动了宣传战。

Antony starts out as a legitimate rival, and there are two Romans vying for power.

安东尼一开始是一个合法的竞争对手，有两个罗马人在争夺权力。

At the end of this war, propaganda war, Octavian has managed to portray Antony as a foreign aggressor, allied with an enemy, king or queen, in this case, Cleopatra, and who is an official enemy of the Roman state, and that’s all propaganda.

在这场战争、宣传战结束时，屋大维成功地将安东尼描绘成一个外国侵略者，与敌人、国王或王后结盟，在本例中是克利奥帕特拉，她是罗马国家的正式敌人，这都是宣传。

So, he takes what’s a civil war and makes it look like a war against a foreign enemy.

因此，他把内战变成了一场针对外敌的战争。

And when Octavian becomes the sole ruler, he looks at what Caesar did wrong, and he very carefully avoids the same mistakes.

当屋大维成为唯一的统治者时，他看到凯撒做错了什么，他非常小心地避免犯同样的错误。

1:36:41 So, the first thing is just how he lives his life.

所以，第一件事就是他如何过自己的生活。

He’s very modest.

他非常谦虚。

He lives in an ordinary house like other aristocrats.

他和其他贵族一样，住在一所普通的房子里。

He wears just a plain toga, nothing fancy.

他只穿着一件朴素的长袍，没有什么花哨的。

He’s respectful to the Senate.

他尊重参议院。

1:36:51 He treats them with respect.

他尊重他们。

He eats simple foods.

他吃简单的食物。

I mean, he’s someone who cared about the reality of power, not the external trappings.

我的意思是，他是一个关心权力现实而不是外部装饰的人。

Clearly there’s some rulers who love, “I want to dress in fancy clothes.

显然，有些统治者喜欢说：“我想穿漂亮的衣服。

I want to be surrounded by gold.

我想要被黄金包围。

1:37:05 Everything.

一切。

This is what makes me feel good.” Octavian is the opposite.

这就是让我感觉良好的原因。”奥克塔维安则相反。

He doesn’t care about any of that.

他不在乎这些。

He wants real power.

他想要真正的权力。

And then, the other thing is, how is he going to rule Rome without looking like a king?

然后，另一件事是，如果他看起来不像国王，他将如何统治罗马？

1:37:16 And his solution to this is brilliant.

他对此的解决方案非常出色。

He basically pretends to resign from all his public offices and not pretends he does.

他基本上是假装辞去了所有公职，而不是假装他确实辞职了。

So, he holds no official office.

因此，他没有担任任何正式职务。

But what he does is he manipulates so that the Roman Senate votes him the powers of the key Roman offices, but not the office itself.

但他所做的是操纵罗马元老院将罗马重要职位的权力投票给他，而不是职位本身。

So, the highest office in the Roman state is the consul.

因此，罗马国家的最高职位是执政官。

1:37:40 Consuls have the power to command armies, do all sorts of things, run meetings of the Senate.

执政官有权指挥军队、做各种事情、主持元老院会议。

Octavian gets voted the powers of a consul so he can command armies control meetings of the Senate, do all this.

屋大维被选为执政官，这样他就可以指挥军队控制元老院的会议，做这一切。

But he’s not one of the two consuls elected for every year.

但他并不是每年当选的两名执政官之一。

So, he’s just floating or drifting off to the side of the Roman government.

所以，他只是飘到了罗马政府一边。

He gets the power of a Tribune, which has all sorts of powers.

他获得了论坛报的权力，拥有各种权力。

1:38:04 He can veto anything he wants, but he’s not one of the Tribunes elected for anyone.

他可以否决他想要否决的任何事情，但他不是为任何人选出的护民官之一。

So, the state, the Republic appears to continue as it always has.

因此，国家、共和国似乎一如既往地继续下去。

Each year they hold the same elections, they elect the same number of people, notionally, those people are in charge.

他们每年都会举行相同的选举，选出相同数量的人，理论上，这些人负责。

But floating off to the side, you have this guy Octavian, who has equivalent power, not just to any one magistrate official, but to all of them.

但在一边，你有这个人奥克塔维安，他拥有同等的权力，不仅对任何一位地方官员，而且对所有人。

So, any moment he can just pop up and say, “No, let’s not do this.

所以，他随时都可以突然出现并说：“不，我们不要这样做。

1:38:31 Let’s do something else.” And he also keeps the army under his personal control.

我们来做点别的事吧。”他还将军队置于他个人的控制之下。

Isn’t this a fascinating story?

这不是一个引人入胜的故事吗？

1:38:36 What do you think is the psychology of Augustus, of Octavian?

你认为奥古斯都、屋大维的心理是怎样的？

Yeah.

是的。

1:38:41 And he later changed his name to Augustus when he becomes the first emperor.

后来当他成为第一位皇帝时，他更名为奥古斯都。

The other thing he does is he hides his power behind all these different names.

他做的另一件事是他将自己的权力隐藏在所有这些不同的名字后面。

The greatest strategy.

最伟大的策略。

Caesar called himself dictator for life, right?

凯撒称自己为终身独裁者，对吗？

1:38:49 So, everybody knew what he was.

所以，大家都知道他是什么人了。

Octavian.

奥克塔维安.

We even have a source that talks about it.

我们甚至有一个消息来源谈论它。

He says he wondered what to call himself.

他说他想知道该怎么称呼自己。

“Do I call myself king?

“我称自己为王吗？

1:38:57 No, he can’t do that.

不，他不能那样做。

Dictator for life.

终生独裁者。

No way.

没办法。

Maybe I’ll call myself Romulus.

也许我会称自己为罗慕路斯。

That was the founder of Rome.

那是罗马的创始人。

No, no.

不，不。

1:39:02 Romulus was a king.” And finally, a solution is he takes a bunch of titles, which are all ambiguous, and no one of them sounds that impressive, but collectively they are.

罗慕路斯是一位国王。”最后，一个解决方案是他拿了一堆标题，这些标题都是模棱两可的，没有一个听起来那么令人印象深刻，但总的来说它们是令人印象深刻的。

So, for example, one of the titles he gets is Augustus, which is something tied to Roman religion.

例如，他获得的头衔之一是奥古斯都，这与罗马宗教有关。

Something that is Augustus in Latin has two possible meanings.

拉丁语中的“奥古斯都”一词有两种可能的含义。

One is someone who is Augustus is very pious.

一是奥古斯都非常虔诚的人。

They respect the Gods deeply.

他们深深地尊敬诸神。

Well, that sounds nice, doesn’t it?

嗯，听起来不错，不是吗？

Well, on the other hand, an alternative meaning for Augustus is something that is itself divine.

好吧，另一方面，奥古斯都的另一种含义是它本身就是神圣的。

So, is he just a deeply religious, pious person, or is he himself sacred?

那么，他只是一个虔诚的宗教人士，还是他本身就是神圣的？

There’s that ambiguity.

存在这种歧义。

1:39:47 He calls himself Princeps, which means first citizen.

他称自己为“Princeps”，意思是第一公民。

“Okay, what the hell does that mean?

“好吧，这到底是什么意思？

Am I a citizen just like everybody else?

我和其他人一样是公民吗？

Or am I the first citizen, which means I’m superior to all the others?” So, every title he takes has this weird ambiguity.

或者我是第一公民，这意味着我比其他所有人都优越？”所以，他获得的每一个头衔都有这种奇怪的模糊性。

1:40:03 He calls himself Imperator, which is traditionally something that soldiers shout at, a victorious general who’s won a battle.

他称自己为“皇帝”，传统上这是士兵们对他大喊的称呼，是一位赢得了战斗的凯旋将军。

And now he takes this as a permanent title.

现在他把这个当作永久的头衔。

So, it implies he’s a good general.

所以，这表明他是一位好将军。

And by the way, it’s from Imperator that we get the word emperor, an empire.

顺便说一下，我们从 Imperator 中得到了“皇帝”这个词，即帝国。

So, originally it’s a military title, a spontaneous military acclamation.

所以，本来它是一个军事称号，一个自发的军事称呼。

It’s just fascinating that he figured out a way through public image, through branding to gain power, maintain power, and still pacify the boiling turmoil that led to the civil wars.

令人着迷的是，他找到了一种通过公众形象、通过品牌塑造来获得权力、维持权力并仍然平息导致内战的沸腾骚乱的方法。

Yeah.

是的。

1:40:44 Well, two things I think work in his favor as well.

嗯，我认为有两件事也对他有利。

One is he brings peace and stability.

一是他带来了和平与稳定。

So, by this point, the Romans have experienced a hundred years almost of civil war and chaos.

所以，至此，罗马人已经经历了近一百年的内战和混乱。

So, at that point, your family, maybe you’ve had family members die in these wars or been prescribed, your property has been confiscated, who knows what.

所以，到那时，你的家人，也许你的家人在这些战争中丧生，或者被开处方，你的财产被没收，谁知道会发生什么。

And here’s a guy who brings peace and stability and doesn’t seem oppressive or cruel or whatever.

这是一个带来和平与稳定的人，看起来并不压抑或残忍或其他什么。

1:41:12 So, you’re like, “Okay, fine, I don’t care.

所以，你会说：“好吧，好吧，我不在乎。

Maybe he’s killed the Republic, but at least we’re not dying in the streets anymore.” So, that’s a big thing he does.

也许他杀死了共和国，但至少我们不会再死在街头了。”所以，这是他做的一件大事。

1:41:21 And secondly, even though Augustus always seemed sickly his constitution, he lives forever.

其次，尽管奥古斯都的体质看起来总是病弱，但他却永远活着。

He rules for like 50 years, and by the time he dies, there’s no one literally almost left alive who can remember the Republic.

他统治了大约 50 年，当他去世时，几乎没有人还活着记得共和国。

So, at that point, by the time he dies, this is the only system we know.

所以，到那时，当他去世时，这是我们所知道的唯一系统。

That’s another just fascinating accident of history, because as we talked about with Alexander the Great, who knows if he lived for another 40 years, if over time the people that hate the new thing die off and then their sons and come into power, that could be a very different story.

这是另一个令人着迷的历史意外，因为正如我们与亚历山大大帝谈论的那样，谁知道他是否还能再活 40 年，如果随着时间的推移，那些讨厌新事物的人死去，然后他们的儿子上台，那可能是一个非常不同的故事。

1:41:43 Maybe we’ll be talking about the [inaudible 01:42:07].

也许我们会讨论 [听不清 01:42:07]。

That’s a fluke of fate, but it’s hugely influential on history.

这是命运的侥幸，但它对历史的影响却是巨大的。

You mentioned Cleopatra.

你提到了克利奥帕特拉。

1:42:09 If we go back to that, what role did she play?

如果我们回到过去，她扮演的是什么角色？

Another fascinating human being.

又一个令人着迷的人。

Cleopatra is interesting.

克利奥帕特拉很有趣。

1:42:17 I mean, she was a direct descendant of one of Alexander the Great’s generals Ptolemy.

我的意思是，她是亚历山大大帝的将军托勒密之一的直系后裔。

When Alexander’s empire had broken up Ptolemy, this general had seized control of Egypt, made it his kingdom.

当亚历山大的帝国瓦解托勒密时，这位将军控制了埃及，将其建立为自己的王国。

And she 10 generations later, is a descendant of this Macedonian general.

而她10代之后，就是这位马其顿将军的后裔。

So, Egypt had been ruled by, in essence, foreigners, these Macedonian dynasty of kings.

因此，埃及本质上是由外国人，即马其顿国王王朝统治的。

1:42:44 And often they literally were ruled by the same dynasty because they had a habit of marrying brothers to sisters.

而且他们往往实际上是由同一个王朝统治的，因为他们有兄弟姐妹联姻的习惯。

And Cleopatra was in fact originally married to her younger brother.

事实上克利奥帕特拉最初嫁给了她的弟弟。

But despite that, she seems to have intensely identified with Egypt.

但尽管如此，她似乎对埃及有着强烈的认同感。

In fact, she seems to have been the first one of all these Ptolemy kings who actually bothered to learn to speak Egyptian.

事实上，她似乎是所有托勒密国王中第一个真正费心学习说埃及语的人。

So, she seems to really have cared about Egypt as well.

所以，她似乎也很关心埃及。

1:43:13 And she was clearly very smart, very clever.

而且她显然非常聪明，非常聪明。

And so, she’s living at a time during the late Republic when Rome is having all these civil wars.

因此，她生活在共和国晚期，罗马正在经历所有这些内战。

And Egypt is really the last big independent kingdom left around the shores, the Mediterranean, everything else has been conquered by Rome.

埃及确实是地中海沿岸最后一个独立的大王国，其他一切都被罗马征服了。

So, she is in this very precarious position where clearly she wants to maintain Egyptian independence, but Rome is this juggernaut that’s rolling over everything.

因此，她处于一个非常不稳定的境地，显然她想维持埃及的独立，但罗马是一个碾压一切的主宰。

She ends up meeting Julius Caesar when Caesar comes to Egypt chasing Pompey, his great rival, after he defeats Pompey, Pompey runs to Egypt thinking he’ll find sanctuary there, and the Egyptians kill him and chop off his head.

当凯撒来到埃及追赶他的劲敌庞培时，她最终遇到了朱利叶斯·凯撒，在他击败庞培后，庞培跑到埃及以为他会在那里找到庇护所，埃及人杀死了他并砍下了他的头。

1:43:54 And when Caesar lands, they hand it to him and say, “Here have a present.” And she, of course, famously ends up having a love affair with Caesar.

当凯撒着陆时，他们把它递给他并说：“这是一份礼物。”当然，众所周知，她最终与凯撒发生了恋情。

Was that a genuine love or was she just using this as a way to try and keep Egypt independent to give it some status?

这是真正的爱还是她只是以此作为试图保持埃及独立以赋予其某种地位的一种方式？

We don’t know.

我们不知道。

After she does have several kids with Caesar.

在她和凯撒生了几个孩子之后。

1:44:15 After Caesar’s assassinated, and the Roman world is having another civil war between Octavian and Mark Antony.

凯撒被刺杀后，罗马世界又发生了屋大维和马克·安东尼之间的内战。

Mark Antony is basing himself in the east.

马克·安东尼以东部为基地。

He meets Cleopatra and he has a big love affair with her.

他遇到了克利奥帕特拉，并与她产生了深厚的爱情。

And this one seems pretty genuine.

而且这个看起来很真实。

I mean, Antony and Cleopatra, there’s a lot of stories about them partying together.

我的意思是，安东尼和克利奥帕特拉，有很多关于他们一起聚会的故事。

1:44:35 They liked to cosplay and dress up as different gods.

他们喜欢角色扮演并装扮成不同的神。

So, Cleopatra would dress up as the goddess Isis and Antony would dress up as the god Dionysus in a leopard skin, and they’d have these big parties and stuff, and they end up together fighting against Octavian.

所以，克利奥帕特拉会打扮成女神伊希斯，安东尼会打扮成穿着豹皮的狄俄尼索斯神，他们会举办这些盛大的派对之类的东西，最后他们一起对抗屋大维。

And in the end, they’re defeated by Octavian and Antony commits suicide.

最后，他们被奥克塔维击败，安东尼自杀。

Cleopatra there’s differing accounts of her death.

关于克利奥帕特拉的死，有不同的说法。

She may have also killed herself, or she may actually have been killed by Octavian to just get her out of the way.

她可能也自杀了，或者她可能实际上是被奥克塔维安杀死的，只是为了让她摆脱困境。

1:45:10 But she’s an interesting figure because she was clearly a very smart woman who managed to keep Egypt alive as an independent state.

但她是一个有趣的人物，因为她显然是一位非常聪明的女性，成功地让埃及作为一个独立国家得以存在。

She seemed to have actually cared about Egypt and identified with it and succeeded at a time with all these famous people in being a real mover and shaker and a force in events.

她似乎真的关心埃及并认同它，并在所有这些名人中成功地成为了真正的推动者和事件的推动者。

I mean, she’s probably one of the most influential women in human history.

我的意思是，她可能是人类历史上最有影响力的女性之一。

She certainly…

她当然……

1:45:35 Again, she’s someone that her image is incredibly important.

再说一次，她是一个非常重视自己形象的人。

And I mean, one of the interesting things, the whole question of gender in the Roman world, I mean, this gets into Roman sources, but of course it’s a heavily male dominated history.

我的意思是，有趣的事情之一，罗马世界中的整个性别问题，我的意思是，这进入了罗马的资料来源，但当然这是一段男性主导的历史。

And I mean, men and women did not have equality in ancient Rome.

我的意思是，在古罗马，男性和女性并没有平等。

It’s a male dominated society.

这是一个男性主导的社会。

It’s misogynist in many ways.

它在很多方面都是厌恶女性的。

1:45:57 But what I’m constantly struck by is when you start, again, delving into the sources, you always hear, “Okay, well, there was this one woman who was a philosopher, and she’s an exception to the rule.

但令我印象深刻的是，当你再次开始深入研究资料来源时，你总是会听到，“好吧，好吧，有一个女人是一位哲学家，她是这个规则的例外。

And yeah, okay, she’s fine.” And then, you start looking into, “Oh, and there’s also 60 other female philosophers.

是的，好吧，她很好。”然后，你开始调查，“哦，还有其他 60 名女性哲学家。

Well, it’s not so much an exception anymore.

好吧，这不再是例外了。

Or Cleopatra is the one queen.

或者克利奥帕特拉是唯一的女王。

1:46:19 She’s this strong queen.” And then, you look, “Well, there was this other queen here.

她是一位坚强的女王。”然后，你看，“好吧，这里还有另一位女王。

There was this queen here.

这里有这位女王。

There was this queen here who led armies, and here’s another one who led armies.” And again, it’s like, well, are they exceptions to the rule or is just the history that was written, which is written by men a little bit selective in how it portrays them, because the sources are all these male elites who have very definite ideas about women.

这里有一位领导军队的女王，这里还有一位领导军队的女王。”再说一次，这就像，好吧，她们是规则的例外，还是只是被书写的历史，这是由男性在如何描绘她们方面有点选择性的书写的，因为来源都是这些对女性有非常明确想法的男性精英。

1:46:41 The conventional notion has always been that business in the Roman Empire was a male field.

传统观念一直认为罗马帝国的商业是男性的领域。

Well, but then there’s this woman, Eumachia in Pompeii who actually had the largest building in Pompeii, right on the forum named after her with a giant statue of her.

好吧，但是还有一个女人，庞贝的 Eumachia，她实际上拥有庞贝最大的建筑，就在以她命名的论坛上，并有一尊她的巨型雕像。

And she was a patron to a bunch of the most important guilds in Pompeii.

她是庞贝城一些最重要行会的赞助人。

Okay.

好的。

She’s the exception to the rule.

她是这个规则的例外。

1:47:02 Oh, but then there’s these other four women we have from Pompeii who also were patrons of guilds.

哦，但是我们还有来自庞贝的另外四位女性，她们也是行会的赞助人。

And then, there’s this woman, Plancia Magna in this other place, and she was the most important patron in the town and put up all these statues.

然后，在另一个地方有一个女人，Plancia Magna，她是镇上最重要的赞助人，竖起了所有这些雕像。

So, at some point, when do you start to say, “Well, maybe women did play more of a role, but they just haven’t been recorded in the sources in the way that maybe they deserve to be.”

所以，在某些时候，你什么时候开始说，“好吧，也许女性确实扮演了更多的角色，但她们只是没有以她们应有的方式记录在资源中。”

Yeah, that’s a fascinating question.

是的，这是一个有趣的问题。

1:47:24 Is it the bias of society, or is it the bias of the historian?

是社会的偏见，还是历史学家的偏见？

Yeah.

是的。

The bias of the society that the historian is writing about, or the bias of the actual history.

历史学家所写的社会的偏见，或者实际历史的偏见。

And the bias of the historians who have written history up to this point.

以及迄今为止撰写历史的历史学家的偏见。

1:47:34 I was just writing a lecture, which was about this woman Musa who has a crazy story, and she ties into Augustus, actually.

我刚刚写了一篇演讲，讲的是穆萨这个女人，她有一个疯狂的故事，实际上她与奥古斯都有关。

Augustus, his biggest diplomatic triumph that he boasted about constantly was that about 50 years before him, the Romans had sent an expedition into Parthia, this neighboring kingdom led by Crassus, and they’d gotten wiped out.

对于奥古斯都来说，他不断吹嘘的最大的外交胜利是，大约在他之前50年，罗马人远征帕提亚，这个由克拉苏领导的邻国王国，他们被消灭了。

So, it was this big disaster, military disaster.

所以，这是一场大灾难，军事灾难。

And the standards of the Roman legions, the eagles, that each Roman legion carried, had been captured by the Parthians.

而罗马军团的旗帜，每个罗马军团所携带的鹰，也被帕提亚人俘虏了。

1:48:13 And this is the most humiliating thing that can happen to a Roman legion to have its eagles captured.

对于罗马军团来说，鹰被俘是最屈辱的事情。

And Augustus desperately wanted to negotiate with the Parthians to get these eagles returned.

奥古斯都迫切希望与帕提亚人谈判，让这些鹰归还。

Okay?

好吧？

This was his big diplomatic thing.

这是他的外交大事。

So, he was constantly sending these embassies to Parthia.

所以，他不断地派遣这些使节前往帕提亚。

On one of these embassies, he sent along as a gift to the Parthian King, a slave woman named Musa.

在其中一个使馆中，他向帕提亚国王送去了一位名叫穆萨的女奴作为礼物。

1:48:36 Musa seems to have pleased the king of Parthia because she becomes one of his concubines, and then she gives birth to a son by the king, and eventually she becomes upgraded to the level of wife.

穆萨似乎很高兴帕提亚国王，因为她成为了他的妃子之一，然后她为国王生了一个儿子，最终她升级为妻子。

And Musa eventually murders the Parthian king, arranges it so that her son becomes the king of Parthia, and she’s really ruling the whole empire behind the scenes as his mother.

而穆萨最终谋杀了帕提亚国王，安排她的儿子成为帕提亚国王，而她在幕后真正以他的母亲的身份统治着整个帝国。

So, this is a literal rags to riches story of a slave, someone who starts out a slave and becomes the queen of an empire, almost as large and powerful as Rome.

所以，这是一个真正的奴隶白手起家的故事，一个从奴隶开始，成为几乎与罗马一样强大的帝国女王的人。

Okay.

好的。

But yet, how often do we hear about Musa?

但是，我们多久听说一次穆萨呢？

1:49:22 And when you look in traditional histories of Roman, Parthian relations, and I went and looked at this because I was just writing this lecture, most of those histories didn’t even mention her.

当你查看罗马和帕提亚关系的传统历史时，我去查看了这个，因为我刚刚写这个讲座，大多数历史甚至没有提到她。

They just talked about her son, like he had just come out of nowhere and become the new heir to the Parthian throne when it was all her doing clearly.

他们只是谈论她的儿子，就好像他不知从哪里冒出来，成为帕提亚王位的新继承人，而这一切显然都是她做的。

Now, that’s selective editing of history by historians to downplay the role that this woman played.

现在，这是历史学家对历史的选择性编辑，以淡化这位女性所扮演的角色。

And there’s a lot of examples like that.

类似的例子还有很多。

That’s fascinating.

这很有趣。

She got overthrown after a few years.

几年后，她被推翻了。

1:49:52 There was a revolution against her, and we don’t know what happened to her then, but she’s a really interesting figure.

有一场针对她的革命，我们不知道她当时发生了什么，但她是一个非常有趣的人物。

And by the way, Augustus didn’t negotiate the return of the Parthian standards and got them back, and he was so proud of this that this is what he constantly boasted about.

顺便说一句，奥古斯都并没有通过谈判恢复安息标准并把它们拿回来，他为此感到非常自豪，这就是他不断吹嘘的。

And the most famous statue of Augustus, the Augustus from Prima Porta, which is in the Vatican today, he’s wearing a breastplate.

最著名的奥古斯都雕像，来自Prima Porta的奥古斯都雕像，如今位于梵蒂冈，他戴着胸甲。

And on the breastplate right in the middle of the stomach is a Parthian handing over a golden eagle legionary standard to a Roman.

胸甲上的腹部正中是一位帕提亚人将一面金鹰军团旗帜交给罗马人。

1:50:23 So, this is what Augustus thought of as his greatest achievement.

所以，这就是奥古斯都认为他最伟大的成就。

And that embassy that arranged that was the one that sent Musa to Parthia.

安排这件事的大使馆就是派遣穆萨前往帕提亚的大使馆。

So, Augustus marks the start of the Roman Empire.

因此，奥古斯都标志着罗马帝国的开始。

Yep.

是的。

You’ve written that Octavian Augustus would become Rome’s first emperor, and the political system that he created would endure for the next half a millennium.

你曾写道，屋大维·奥古斯都将成为罗马第一位皇帝，他创建的政治制度将持续半个世纪。

1:50:37 This system would become the template for countless later empires up through the present day, and he would become the model emperor against whom all subsequent ones would be measured.

这个制度将成为后来无数帝国直至今日的模板，而他也将成为衡量所有后续帝国的模范皇帝。

The culture and history of the Mediterranean Basin, the western world, and even global history itself, were all profoundly shaped and influenced by the actions and legacy of Octavian.

地中海盆地、西方世界的文化和历史，甚至全球历史本身，都受到屋大维的行为和遗产的深刻塑造和影响。

1:51:09 He was the founder of the Roman Empire, and we still live today in the world that he created.

他是罗马帝国的创始人，我们今天仍然生活在他创造的世界中。

So, what on the political side of things and maybe beyond, what is the political system that he created?

那么，在政治方面，也许更进一步，他创建的政治制度是什么？

Well, I mean, I think Octavian/Augustus is the same guy, is one of the most influential people in the history because he did found the Roman Empire.

嗯，我的意思是，我认为屋大维/奥古斯都是同一个人，是历史上最有影响力的人之一，因为他确实建立了罗马帝国。

1:51:24 So, he’s the one who oversaw this transition from Republic to Empire, and he sets the template which every future emperor follows.

所以，他是监督从共和国到帝国过渡的人，他为未来的每一位皇帝树立了榜样。

So, just in the most obvious way for the next either 500 or 1500 years, depending how long you think the Roman Empire lasted for, everyone is trying to be Augustus.

所以，最明显的是，在接下来的 500 年或 1500 年里，每个人都在努力成为奥古斯都，这取决于你认为罗马帝国持续了多久。

They all take on the same titles.

他们都拥有相同的头衔。

Every Roman emperor after him is Caesar, Augustus, Imperator, Pater patriae, all these titles he has, they take too.

在他之后的每一位罗马皇帝都是凯撒、奥古斯都、皇帝、祖国之父，所有这些头衔他都拥有，他们也拥有。

1:51:59 And so, he’s hugely influential for Western civilization, all this.

因此，他对西方文明有着巨大的影响力。

But beyond just that literal thing, which is already 500 years, 1500 years, he becomes the paradigm of the good ruler, so of an absolute ruler who is nevertheless just does good things, builds public works as popular.

但除了字面意思之外，已经有 500 年、1500 年了，他成为了好统治者的典范，因此是一个绝对统治者的典范，尽管如此，他仍然只是做好事，建设受欢迎的公共工程。

So, if we jump ahead, let’s say to the Middle Ages, the most significant ruler of the early Middle Ages is Charlemagne.

所以，如果我们跳到中世纪，中世纪早期最重要的统治者是查理曼大帝。

He’s the guy who unites most of Europe.

他是团结欧洲大部分地区的人。

He becomes the paradigm for all medieval kings after him.

他成为继他之后所有中世纪国王的典范。

1:52:35 Well, what is the title that the Pope gives to Charlemagne?

那么，教皇给查理曼的头衔是什么？

Because there’s this famous moment when the Pope acknowledges Charlemagne as the preeminent European king and crowns him on Christmas day of the year 800.

因为有一个著名的时刻，教皇承认查理曼大帝是杰出的欧洲国王，并在公元 800 年的圣诞节那天为他加冕。

And the title that the Pope gives to Charlemagne is Charles, that’s Charlemagne Augustus, Emperor of the Romans.

教皇给查理曼的头衔是查理，即查理曼·奥古斯都，罗马人的皇帝。

He’s giving him the title of Augustus because that’s the nicest thing he can think of to say to Charlemagne is to say, “You’re the new Augustus.

他给了他奥古斯都的称号，因为这是他能想到的对查理曼说的最好的一句话，“你是新的奥古斯都。

You’re emperor of the Romans.”

你是罗马人的皇帝。”

1:53:09 So, that image is hugely powerful, and that persists on and on.

所以，这个形象非常强大，并且持续存在。

I mean, even the literal names of most rulers afterwards come from this.

我的意思是，甚至后来大多数统治者的字面名字也来源于此。

In Russia, the Czars are Caesars.

在俄罗斯，沙皇就是凯撒。

That’s where Czar comes from.

这就是沙皇的由来。

Prince comes from Princeps, first citizen, one of the titles.

Prince来自Princeps，第一公民，头衔之一。

1:53:29 Emperor comes from Imperator, one of the titles of Augustus.

皇帝来自Imperator，奥古斯都的头衔之一。

When Napoleon becomes Emperor, what does he call himself?

当拿破仑成为皇帝时，他如何称呼自己？

First consul, which is like Princeps, and then he calls himself emperor.

第一执政官，就像普林塞斯一样，然后他称自己为皇帝。

I mean, everybody wants to be this kind of ruler.

我的意思是，每个人都想成为这样的统治者。

So, he’s the paradigm of this for the rest of history.

所以，他是其余历史的典范。

1:53:48 And you can see that as both a positive and a negative legacy.

你可以将其视为积极和消极的遗产。

It’s like Alexander.

就像亚历山大一样。

I mean, everybody wants to be the next Alexander.

我的意思是，每个人都想成为下一个亚历山大。

Now, nobody does become the next Alexander.

现在，没有人能成为下一个亚历山大。

Nobody’s as successful as him.

没有人像他一样成功。

1:54:00 But a lot of people try and you can see that either as, oh, inspirational or awful, because lots of people killed lots of other people and started lots of wars trying to be the next Alexander.

但很多人都在尝试，你可以看到这要么是鼓舞人心的，要么是可怕的，因为很多人杀死了很多人，并发动了很多战争，试图成为下一个亚历山大。

At least Augustus has this notion of good rulership that you’re not just a great powerful person, but you’re a good ruler somehow.

至少奥古斯都有良好统治的观念，即你不仅是一个强大的人，而且在某种程度上你是一个好的统治者。

Can you speak to the kind of political system he created?

您能谈谈他创建的政治制度吗？

1:54:23 So, how did he consolidate power as you spoke to a bit already, and what role did the Senate now play?

那么，正如您已经谈到的那样，他是如何巩固权力的？参议院现在扮演什么角色？

How were the laws?

法律怎么样？

Who was the executive?

执行官是谁？

How is power allocated and so on?

权力如何分配等等？

Yeah, so once the empire begins, let’s say 27 BC, so in 31 BC, Octavian defeats Antony at the Battle of Actium.

是的，一旦帝国开始，比如说公元前 27 年，公元前 31 年，屋大维在亚克兴战役中击败了安东尼。

1:54:41 So, that’s the moment he becomes the sole ruler.

所以，从那时起，他就成为了唯一的统治者。

And then, in 27 BC, a couple years later, he settles the Roman Republic is how it’s referred to, which is basically sets up his system.

然后，几年后的公元前 27 年，他确定了罗马共和国（罗马共和国），这基本上建立了他的体系。

And in this system, on the surface, it all looks the same.

而在这个系统中，从表面上看，一切看起来都是一样的。

You still have a Senate, each year there’s elections, all the Roman citizens vote, they elect magistrates who notionally are in charge of Rome.

你仍然有一个参议院，每年都有选举，所有罗马公民投票，他们选举名义上负责罗马的地方法官。

1:55:16 But as I mentioned off to the side, you now have this figure of Augustus who controls everything behind the scenes, and that continues.

但正如我在旁边提到的，现在你有了奥古斯都的形象，他控制着幕后的一切，而且这种情况还在继续。

So, this political system he establishes continues.

所以，他建立的这个政治制度还在继续。

And in reality, I would say Augustus at that point is again a king.

事实上，我想说奥古斯都在那时再次成为国王。

It really is one man controlling the state.

确实是一个人控制国家。

Even if notionally, it’s still continuing as a republic.

即使在名义上，它仍然作为一个共和国继续存在。

1:55:41 They are electing magistrates, but the magistrates only do what the emperor tells them.

他们选举县令，但县令只做皇帝吩咐他们的事。

But it’s this formal versus informal power, the formal structure as a republic, the way things really work informally is it’s a monarchy.

但这是正式权力与非正式权力的区别，共和国的正式结构，非正式的运作方式是君主制。

Now, if you asked Augustus, what did he do?

现在，如果你问奥古斯都，他做了什么？

Did you become a king?

你成为国王了吗？

He said, and he says this explicitly, “No, no, no.

他说，而且他明确地说：“不，不，不。

1:56:03 What I did is I refounded the Roman Republic.” That’s how he phrases it.

我所做的是重建罗马共和国。”他就是这么说的。

This guy is good at framing.

这家伙很擅长构图。

He’s so good at propaganda.

他非常擅长宣传。

1:56:11 I’ll give you one more example that I love.

我再给你举一个我喜欢的例子。

Augustus actually writes his own autobiography, which is very rare and survives.

奥古斯都实际上写了自己的自传，这是非常罕见的并且幸存下来。

So, here we have the autobiography of one of the pivotal figures in history.

因此，我们这里有历史上一位关键人物的自传。

And if you had conquered the world, let’s say starting at the age of 18, what would you call your autobiography?

如果你征服了世界，假设从 18 岁开始，你会怎么称呼你的自传？

1:56:29 It’d be something like, “How I conquered the world,” right?

就像“我如何征服世界”，对吧？

Augustus calls his, derace quae feci, which the best literal translation is stuff I did.

奥古斯都称他为“derace quae feci”，最好的直译就是我所做的事情。

I mean, it’s the most modest title for someone who could have given the most grandiose title.

我的意思是，对于本来可以授予最宏伟头衔的人来说，这是最谦虚的头衔。

And the first line of it is at the age of 18, when the liberty of the Republic was oppressed by a faction, I defended it.

第一行是18岁时，当共和国的自由受到派系压迫时，我捍卫了它。

Now, the way I might phrase that sense is at the age of 18, I fought a civil war against another Roman and conquered the Roman state.

现在，我可以用这样的方式表达这种感觉：在 18 岁时，我与另一个罗马人进行了一场内战，并征服了罗马国家。

1:57:02 But no, he defended the liberty of the republic when it was oppressed by the tyranny of a faction.

但不，当共和国受到派系暴政的压迫时，他捍卫了共和国的自由。

That’s propaganda, and it works.

这就是宣传，而且有效。

It is propaganda, but is there a degree to which he also lived it?

这是宣传，但他在某种程度上也经历过这种宣传吗？

1:57:11 That kind of humility, establishing that humility is a standard of the way government operates.

这种谦逊，确立了这种谦逊是政府运作方式的标准。

So, it’s not a literal direct balance of power, but it’s a cultural balance of power where the emperor is not supposed to be a bully and a dictator.

所以，这不是字面意义上的直接权力平衡，而是一种文化上的权力平衡，皇帝不应该是一个恶霸和独裁者。

I would really like to know what Romans of his time thought.

我真的很想知道他那个时代的罗马人是怎么想的。

1:57:31 If you were alive at that moment, would you honestly believe, “Oh, okay, we’ve got this guy Augustus, but he’s brought peace.

如果你当时还活着，你会诚实地相信，“哦，好吧，我们找到了奥古斯都这个人，但他带来了和平。

He’s just keeping in charge for a while until things settle down.

他只是继续负责一段时间，直到事情稳定下来。

We’ve just had a hundred years of civil war.

我们刚刚经历了一百年的内战。

I think we still have a republic,” or would you say, “Nah, we have a king now.”

我认为我们仍然有一个共和国，”或者你会说，“不，我们现在有一个国王。”

1:57:54 And I don’t know what the answer to that is.

我不知道答案是什么。

I will tell you that it takes 200 years before we have the first Roman source that bluntly calls Augustus a king.

我会告诉你，我们花了 200 年才找到第一个直率地称奥古斯都为国王的罗马资料。

So, 200 years, it takes the Romans 200 years to admit to themselves.

所以，200年，罗马人花了200年才承认自己。

And that’s a guy who comes along 200 years later and says, “Hey, Augustus, he looks like a king.

200 年后，这个人出现并说：“嘿，奥古斯都，他看起来像个国王。

He acts like a king.

他的行为就像一个国王。

Let’s just call him a king, because he had every aspect of a king except the patriae Title.”

我们就称他为国王吧，因为除了祖国头衔之外，他拥有国王的一切特征。”

Maybe I’m buying his propaganda, and maybe I’m a sucker for humility, but I suspect that the Romans bought it, and I also suspect he himself believed it.

也许我相信他的宣传，也许我是一个谦虚的傻瓜，但我怀疑罗马人相信它，而且我也怀疑他自己也相信这一点。

1:58:25 I mean, there is such thing as good kings.

我的意思是，有好国王之类的东西。

There’s kings that understand the downside, the dark side of absolute power and can wield that power properly.

有些国王了解绝对权力的缺点和黑暗面，并且能够正确运用这种权力。

And to give both sides here, Augustus wasn’t all nice.

就双方而言，奥古斯都并不都是好人。

1:58:48 I mean, there were moments where he was extremely cruel.

我的意思是，有些时候他非常残忍。

So, early in his career when he’s still fighting, when he’s…

所以，在他职业生涯的早期，当他还在战斗时，当他……

for power, he goes all in on prescriptions, which is where he and Anty and other people basically post lists of their enemies and say, “It’s legal for anyone to kill these people.” And so, hundreds are massacred there, including Cicero, the Great Order is prescribed and killed.

为了权力，他全力以赴地开药方，他和安蒂以及其他人基本上都会在其中张贴他们的敌人名单，并说：“任何人杀死这些人都是合法的。”因此，数百人在那里被屠杀，包括西塞罗，大秩序被规定并被杀害。

There’s moments when he’s really cruel.

有时他真的很残忍。

1:59:16 One slave once gets him angry, and he has him tortured in particularly cruel manner.

有一次，一名奴隶惹恼了他，他对他进行了特别残酷的折磨。

So, I mean, on the one hand, he had this clemency.

所以，我的意思是，一方面，他有这种仁慈。

On the other hand, he could be really hard-nosed and hard edged, and I think he was a very calculating person.

另一方面，他也可能是一个非常顽固、锋芒毕露的人，我认为他是一个非常精于算计的人。

Yeah.

是的。

1:59:30 So, the thing I would love to know is what he was actually behind the mask.

所以，我很想知道他面具背后的真实身份。

Yes.

是的。

1:59:36 I mean, that to me is one of those, if you could invite a historical person to dinner or whatever, I want to know what the real Augustus was, what he really thought he was doing, because he’s an enigma and he has this great moment when he dies.

我的意思是，对我来说就是其中之一，如果你可以邀请一位历史人物共进晚餐或其他什么，我想知道真正的奥古斯都是什么，他真正认为自己在做什么，因为他是一个谜，他死时有这个伟大的时刻。

What’s his dying lines on his deathbed?

他临终前的临终台词是什么？

He says, “If I’ve played my part, well dismiss me from the stage with applause.”

他说：“如果我发挥了自己的作用，我们就会用掌声让我下台。”

1:59:57 So, he’s seeing himself as an actor that his whole life was acting this role, which is again, all that manipulation and public image.

因此，他将自己视为一名演员，他的一生都在扮演这个角色，这又是所有的操纵和公众形象。

He was brilliant at that.

他在这方面很出色。

But who’s the real guy?

但谁是真人呢？

What was behind that image?

该图像的背后是什么？

And by the way, as long as we’re talking about brutality, I think you’ve mentioned in a few places that there’s a lot of brutality going on.

顺便说一句，只要我们谈论暴行，我想你已经在一些地方提到了存在很多暴行。

2:00:09 At the time, Caesar just killing very large numbers of people brutally.

当时，凯撒只是残酷地屠杀了大量的人。

I mean, Caesar, his campaigns in Gaul are interesting because for a long time they were held up as, oh, genius general.

我的意思是，凯撒，他在高卢的战役很有趣，因为很长一段时间以来，他们被视为，哦，天才将军。

2:00:28 Look at the amazing things he did.

看看他所做的那些令人惊奇的事情。

But another way to view it is he provoked and he truly provoked a war with people who were not that interested in fighting Rome and just repeatedly attacked different tribes for the sole purpose of building up his career, his prestige, his status, gaining territory, making himself wealthier.

但另一种看待它的方式是，他挑起了，他确实挑起了一场与那些对与罗马作战不感兴趣的人的战争，只是为了建立他的事业，他的威望，他的地位，获得领土，让自己更富有，而反复攻击不同的部落。

And he basically conquers all of modern France and Belgium and some of Switzerland.

他基本上征服了整个现代法国和比利时以及瑞士的一些地区。

So, this is a big chunk of Europe gets conquered.

所以，这是欧洲的一大片被征服的地方。

2:01:06 Hundreds of thousands of people killed, hundreds of thousands of people enslaved to further one guy’s career.

为了进一步发展一个人的事业，数十万人被杀，数十万人被奴役。

I mean, if you wanted, could call Caesar a war criminal, and I think that wouldn’t be unfair.

我的意思是，如果你愿意，可以称凯撒为战犯，我认为这并不公平。

But on the other hand, some people see him as a great hero.

但另一方面，也有人把他视为伟大的英雄。

I mean, to talk about history and its reception, it’s quite interesting to see how Caesar has been viewed by different generations.

我的意思是，谈论历史及其接受程度，看看不同代人如何看待凯撒是非常有趣的。

So, at different points in time, the received wisdom on Caesar was very different.

因此，在不同的时间点，人们对凯撒的看法是非常不同的。

2:01:37 So, back in the, let’s say the 1920s or ’30s, there were a number of scholarly things written which looked at Caesar as an admirable figure.

因此，早在 20 年代或 30 年代，就有许多学术文章将凯撒视为令人钦佩的人物。

He’s a strong man who knows what Rome needed and was going to give it to them.

他是一个坚强的人，知道罗马需要什么，并且愿意给他们什么。

And of course, that’s the era when fascism was trendy and was seen as a positive thing.

当然，那是法西斯主义盛行并被视为积极事物的时代。

And then, you get Hitler and World War II and all of sudden fascism is not so favored anymore.

然后，希特勒和第二次世界大战突然间法西斯主义不再那么受欢迎了。

And then, in that post-war generation, all of a sudden Caesar’s terrible.

然后，在战后的一代人中，凯撒突然变得可怕了。

2:02:05 He’s a dictator.

他是一个独裁者。

He is destroying the Republic.

他正在摧毁共和国。

So, often histories that are written tell you a lot more about the time they’re written than they do about the subject they’re written about.

因此，所写的历史通常告诉你更多关于它们被书写的时间，而不是它们所写的主题。

Do we know what did Hitler or Stalin think about the Roman Empire?

我们知道希特勒或斯大林对罗马帝国的看法吗？

I mean, certainly they borrow a lot of the trappings.

我的意思是，他们当然借用了很多服饰。

2:02:22 I mean, Nazi, Germany borrows a lot of iconography from ancient Rome.

我的意思是，纳粹德国从古罗马借用了很多图像。

I mean, they carry it around little military standards with eagles on them, just like the Romans.

我的意思是，他们随身带着带有鹰的小军事标准，就像罗马人一样。

But then everybody does that.

但随后每个人都会这样做。

I mean, the US has eagles as their standards.

我的意思是，美国以鹰为标准。

2:02:38 Mussolini had them.

墨索里尼拥有它们。

Napoleon had eagle standards for his military.

拿破仑对他的军队有鹰的标准。

So, a lot of people like that imagery.

所以，很多人都喜欢这样的形象。

You mentioned Cicero.

你提到了西塞罗。

2:02:49 He’s a fascinating figure.

他是一个迷人的人物。

On the topic of Roman oratory, who was Cicero?

说到罗马演讲，西塞罗是谁？

Cicero was a new man.

西塞罗是一个新人。

2:02:56 So, he’s someone who didn’t have famous ancestors.

所以，他是一个没有显赫祖先的人。

So, he was at a disadvantage.

所以说，他是处于劣势的。

And I think Cicero is really interesting for a couple of reasons.

我认为西塞罗非常有趣，有几个原因。

One is he wrote an incredible amount.

一是他写了令人难以置信的数量。

2:03:09 I think we have almost more words from Cicero than any other author that survived, and it’s all kinds of stuff.

我认为西塞罗的文字几乎比任何其他幸存的作家都多，而且是各种各样的东西。

It’s philosophical treatises, it’s books about how to be a good public speaker.

这是哲学论文，是关于如何成为一名优秀的公共演讲者的书籍。

He published volume after volume of his personal letters to his friends.

他出版了一卷又一卷写给朋友的私人信件。

He published these things.

他发表了这些东西。

So, there’s tons of stuff from him.

所以，他有很多东西。

2:03:28 And secondly, he’s interesting because he lived at this incredibly important time in the late Republic when things were falling apart.

其次，他很有趣，因为他生活在共和国晚期这个极其重要的时期，当时一切都在分崩离析。

But he seems to have been born with none of the natural advantages that all these other people had.

但他似乎生来就没有其他人所拥有的任何天生优势。

So, he was a lousy general.

所以，他是一个蹩脚的将军。

He didn’t come from a wealthy family.

他并非来自富裕家庭。

He didn’t come from a famous aristocratic family.

他并非出身于名门望族。

2:03:49 He didn’t have a lot of these advantages, but yet he ended up being right at the center of things, rose to the highest elected office in the Roman state on the basis of one skill.

他没有太多这些优势，但他最终成为了事情的中心，凭借一项技能晋升到罗马国家的最高民选职位。

And that was his ability with words, his ability to get up in front of a crowd and persuade them of what he wanted them to believe.

这就是他的言语能力，他站在人群面前说服他们相信他希望他们相信的事情的能力。

And oratory, public speaking was absolutely central to life at Rome.

演讲、公开演讲绝对是罗马生活的核心。

There were just all these events where people had to get up and give speeches.

在所有这些活动中，人们都必须站起来发表演讲。

So, in courtrooms, at funerals, in the Senate to the people of Rome, at games, I mean just constantly, there were these opportunities for giving speeches.

因此，在法庭上，在葬礼上，在罗马人民的参议院，在比赛中，我的意思是一直都有这些发表演讲的机会。

2:04:27 So, if you are good at this, that was a huge advantage in your political career.

所以，如果你擅长这一点，那对你的政治生涯来说是一个巨大的优势。

And Cicero was the best.

西塞罗是最棒的。

He was arguably the best public speaker of all time.

他可以说是有史以来最好的公共演说家。

2:04:40 Some people claim.

有人声称。

And he lived right in this era, and he parlayed that skill with words into this very successful political career.

他生活在这个时代，他将这种语言技巧运用到了非常成功的政治生涯中。

He was one of the guys involved with all this stuff with Caesar and Pompey and all the other things going on, Octavian, Mark Antony.

他是与凯撒、庞培以及屋大维、马克·安东尼等所有其他事情有关的人之一。

And you’ve written, which is fascinating.

你已经写了，这很有趣。

2:04:54 It’s fascinating when the echoes of people from a distant past are seen today.

当今天看到来自遥远过去的人们的回声时，真是令人着迷。

The same stuff is seen today, not just like some of the beautiful legal stuff that we’ve been talking about, but the tricks, let’s say the shitty stuff we see in politics.

今天我们看到了同样的东西，不仅像我们一直在谈论的一些美丽的法律东西，而且还有技巧，比如说我们在政治中看到的糟糕的东西。

2:05:14 So, many of the rhetorical tricks you wrote, such as mudslinging, exaggeration, guilt by association, ad hominem attacks, name-calling, fearmongering, us versus them, rhyme, and so on and so forth.

所以，你写的许多修辞技巧，比如诽谤、夸张、联想有罪、人身攻击、谩骂、恐吓、我们与他们、押韵等等。

So, I’m guessing it worked given that we still have those today.

所以，我猜它是有效的，因为我们今天仍然拥有这些。

Yeah, I mean, one of the things Cicero did is he wrote at least three of these handbooks about how to be a good public speaker.

是的，我的意思是，西塞罗所做的一件事是他至少写了三本关于如何成为一名优秀的公共演讲者的手册。

2:05:28 So, we know a lot about that.

所以，我们对此了解很多。

We have his own speeches that survive.

我们有他自己的演讲幸存下来。

And then, we have later people after Cicero who wrote about what Cicero did too.

然后，西塞罗之后的人们也写下了西塞罗的所作所为。

So, we know a lot about what he did.

所以，我们对他所做的事情了解很多。

2:05:45 And the key to Cicero’s whole enterprise about persuading an audience, let’s say either it is speech to the people or in the courtroom is Cicero believed that people are fundamentally ruled by emotion.

西塞罗说服观众的整个事业的关键是，无论是对人民的演讲还是在法庭上，西塞罗相信人们从根本上是受情感支配的。

So, if you can touch their emotions, all sorts of other things become less important.

所以，如果你能触动他们的情绪，其他各种事情就变得不那么重要了。

If you can get a jury emotionally worked up and fear, anger, or particularly powerful there, then the facts might not matter, the truth might not matter, evidence might not matter, reason might not matter.

如果你能让陪审团情绪激动、恐惧、愤怒或特别强大，那么事实可能并不重要，真相可能不重要，证据可能不重要，理由可能不重要。

Emotion is the key to everything.

情感是一切的关键。

So, Cicero used what I would arguably call a lot of tricks to get his audiences emotionally riled up.

因此，西塞罗使用了我可以说的很多技巧来激怒他的观众。

2:06:32 And you can just go through these and they’re all the stuff you were saying, name-calling, mudslinging, us versus them arguments, ad hominem attacks, incredibly sophisticated.

你只要浏览一下这些内容，它们就是你所说的所有内容，谩骂、诽谤、我们与他们的争论、人身攻击，非常复杂。

All this stuff that we think of today is, oh, very sophisticated techniques for propaganda and persuasion.

我们今天想到的所有这些东西都是非常复杂的宣传和说服技巧。

It’s not new.

这并不新鲜。

People aren’t coming up with that much that’s new outside the realm of technology, human nature is the same.

人们不会在技术领域之外想出那么多新东西，人性也是如此。

Cicero understood human psychology.

西塞罗了解人类心理。

2:07:00 He knew how to play on people.

他知道如何玩弄别人。

He knew how to play on their emotions, and he would do just…

他知道如何利用他们的情绪，他会做的就是……

I mean, I want to say hilarious, but they’re depressingly hilarious things.

我的意思是，我想说搞笑，但它们是令人沮丧的搞笑。

He thought it’s important to use props.

他认为使用道具很重要。

So, he said, “People are visual.

所以，他说，“人是视觉的。

They will respond emotionally to visual things in a way that just words alone won’t work.”

他们会对视觉事物做出情感上的反应，而仅靠语言是行不通的。”

2:07:20 So, he says, “An order is just like an actor and like an actor he has to prepare his stage and use props and things as visual cues to stir up the audience.

所以，他说，“订单就像演员一样，就像演员一样，他必须准备舞台，并使用道具和其他东西作为视觉线索来激发观众。

So, for example, once he was defending a man in a court case who had just had a new baby born to him, and Cicero literally delivered the defense oration for this guy while cradling his newborn son in his arms, you can imagine, “Oh, cute little baby.

因此，举例来说，有一次他在一场法庭案件中为一名刚生下新生儿的男子辩护，而西塞罗实际上是在为这名男子发表辩护演讲时，同时抱着他刚出生的儿子，你可以想象，“哦，可爱的小宝贝。

Jury, how could you find him guilty and leave this cute baby without a father to take care of him?” Another time, he was defending a guy who had a photogenic son, a young boy, and Cicero literally propped up the kid behind him while he was giving the speech, and again said-

陪审团，你们怎么能判他有罪，并让这个可爱的孩子没有父亲照顾呢？”还有一次，他为一个有一个上镜儿子的人辩护，一个小男孩，西塞罗在演讲时将孩子扶在了他身后，并再次说道——

2:08:00 Literally propped up the kid behind him while he was giving the speech, and again said, “Look at his eyes brimming with tears, thinking about his father being punished.

说话间，他一把将身后的孩子扶了起来，又说道：“你看他的眼睛里充满了泪水，想着他的父亲受到了惩罚。

How could you leave this wonderful boy without a father to care for him?”

你怎么能让这个优秀的男孩没有父亲来照顾呢？”

2:08:13 Another time someone didn’t have a photogenic kid, so he propped up his old parents in the courtroom and said, “Look at this nice old couple.

还有一次，有人的孩子不上镜，他在法庭上搀扶着年迈的父母说：“看看这对好老夫妇。

You won’t want to take their son away.” That kind of stuff; I mean, it’s manipulative.

你不会想把他们的儿子带走的。”那种东西；我的意思是，这是操纵性的。

2:08:26 Cicero, by the way, I should say also had philosophical beliefs about defending the republic and such.

顺便说一句，我应该说西塞罗也有捍卫共和国等的哲学信念。

But he wasn’t above using these things.

但他并不排斥使用这些东西。

Even though he may have had altruistic or high notions of what he was doing, he also wasn’t above using these kind of rhetorical tricks.

尽管他可能对自己所做的事情抱有利他主义或崇高的观念，但他也不排除使用这些修辞技巧。

Also you mentioned to me that you studied the gestures they used.

你还向我提到你研究了他们使用的手势。

Yeah.

是的。

This is one of those on the theme of extremely interesting details of life.

这是以极其有趣的生活细节为主题的作品之一。

This was actually my dissertation, and it was my first book as well.

这实际上是我的论文，也是我的第一本书。

That’s amazing.

太棒了。

2:08:59 That’s amazing.

太棒了。

Again, I told you I like practical stuff.

我再说一遍，我喜欢实用的东西。

2:09:01 This all started with I kept reading about people like Cicero giving speeches in ancient Rome, lots of speeches.

这一切都始于我不断读到像西塞罗这样的人在古罗马发表演讲，很多演讲。

They would give a speech in the Forum with 10,000, 20,000 people.

他们会在一万、两万人的论坛上发表演讲。

2:09:14 And the thought occurred to me, “Well, in ancient Rome, you don’t have microphones.

我突然想到，“好吧，在古罗马，你没有麦克风。

You don’t have loudspeakers.

你没有扬声器。

So how does someone give a speech outdoors in a windy place, not acoustically sound, to 20,000 people?” They just can’t hear you.

那么，一个人如何在室外有风的地方向 20,000 人发表演讲，而且听上去声音不大呢？”他们只是听不到你的声音。

Part of the answer, it turns out, well, part of it’s oratorical training.

事实证明，这是答案的一部分，嗯，是演讲训练的一部分。

You learn how project your voice.

您将学习如何投射您的声音。

But some of it too is that the Romans actually had this system of gestures that orators like Cicero would use to accompany their speeches.

但其中也有一个原因是，罗马人实际上有这种手势系统，西塞罗等演说家会用它来伴随他们的演讲。

And what I ended up doing is combining two types of evidence again.

我最终所做的就是再次结合两种类型的证据。

2:09:47 So I looked at the rhetorical handbooks like Cicero’s.

所以我看了西塞罗的修辞手册。

And also there’s this guy, Quintilian, who lived about 100 years after Cicero, who wrote this long thing called the Institutio Oratoria, which has a description of all types of oratorical stuff, including about 40 pages on gestures.

还有一个名叫昆体良的人，他比西塞罗晚了大约 100 年，写了一本名为《演说学院》的长篇文章，其中描述了所有类型的演说内容，其中包括大约 40 页有关手势的内容。

2:10:05 So he actually says, “When you put your fingers like this, it means such and such.” It turns out Roman orators had a system of sign language that they would use to augment their speeches.

所以他实际上是说，“当你这样放手指时，它意味着这样那样。”事实证明，罗马演说家有一套手语系统，他们可以用它来增强演讲。

But here’s the fun part.

但这是有趣的部分。

It wasn’t like modern American Sign Language, where a gesture means the same thing as a word.

它不像现代美国手语，手势与单词的含义相同。

2:10:23 Instead; and this goes back to Cicero; a certain gesture would indicate a certain emotion that you were meant to feel when you heard the words.

相反；这可以追溯到西塞罗；某种手势会表明你听到这句话时应该感受到的某种情绪。

It’s like your body is adding an emotional gloss to your speech.

就像你的身体正在为你的演讲增添情感色彩。

You’re saying words, and then you’re indicating how you think those words should make you feel.

你在说一些话，然后你表明你认为这些话应该给你带来什么感受。

2:10:44 And even more fun, the Romans believed that, “If I make certain hand gestures, you will almost involuntarily feel certain emotion.” So if you’re skilled, you can manipulate your audience by playing on their emotions.

更有趣的是，罗马人相信，“如果我做出某些手势，你几乎会不由自主地感受到某种情绪。”因此，如果你技术娴熟，你就可以通过利用观众的情绪来操纵他们。

2:10:58 This might sound weird or improbable, but the metaphor that Cicero himself uses is he says, “Think about music.

这可能听起来很奇怪或不太可能，但西塞罗本人使用的比喻是，“想想音乐。

Everybody knows that certain musical tones will make you feel a certain way.”

每个人都知道某些音乐音调会让你有某种感觉。”

2:11:10 Think of movies today: in a horror movie, they’re going to play strident, tense music.

想想今天的电影：在恐怖电影中，他们会播放刺耳、紧张的音乐。

In a romantic scene, you’re going to have strings, and it’ll make you feel a certain way.

在浪漫的场景中，你会有弦乐，它会让你有某种感觉。

When you hear the Jaws theme, you feel tense.

当你听到大白鲨的主题时，你会感到紧张。

2:11:22 Cicero said, “The orator’s body is like a lyre.” A lyre is a musical instrument.

西塞罗说：“演说家的身体就像一架七弦琴。”竖琴是一种乐器。

“And you have to learn to play on your own body as a musical instrument to affect the emotions of your audience.”

“而且你必须学会用自己的身体作为乐器来演奏，以影响观众的情绪。”

I think he might be onto something, especially given how central public speaking was in Roman culture.

我认为他可能是有道理的，特别是考虑到公共演讲在罗马文化中的核心地位。

Yeah.

是的。

2:11:39 And a lot of the Roman oratorical gestures: I could probably do some, and you could probably guess what emotion they’re meant to be.

还有很多罗马演讲的手势：我可能会做一些，你可能会猜到它们意味着什么情感。

2:11:45 For example, there’s one where you hold up your hands to the side and push like this.

比如说，你把手举到一边，像这样用力推。

This is the gesture, and what that means is mild aversion.

这就是姿态，它的意思是轻微的厌恶。

I don’t like something.

我不喜欢某事。

2:11:56 Now if I couple this with turning my face to the side, that; pushing off to one side, turning my face away, it’s a strong aversion.

现在，如果我把脸转向一边，那；把我推到一边，把脸转开，这是一种强烈的厌恶。

That’s like fear or something.

这就像恐惧什么的。

2:12:06 If I clench my fist and press it to my chest, that’s anger or grief.

如果我握紧拳头并将其按在胸前，那就是愤怒或悲伤。

If I slap my thigh, again, that’s indication of anger.

如果我再次拍打大腿，那就是愤怒的表现。

So a lot of these make sense.

所以其中很多都是有道理的。

I mean, they’re natural gestures.

我的意思是，它们是自然的手势。

2:12:18 Now, some are really weird and artificial.

现在，有些确实很奇怪和人为。

I mean, one of my favorite of these is if you hold your hand up open, then curl the fingers in one by one, and then flip it out; this sort of thing; that, to the Romans meant “wonder,” which you sort of see.

我的意思是，我最喜欢的其中之一是，如果你张开你的手，然后将手指一根一根地卷曲，然后将其翻转出来;这种事；对罗马人来说，这意味着“奇迹”，你可以看出这一点。

2:12:35 But again, if you’ve been raised in a societal context where you’re used to the notion that this gesture means this emotion, when someone does it, you’re probably going to feel that emotion.

但同样，如果你是在这样的社会背景下长大的，你已经习惯了这个手势意味着这种情感，那么当有人这样做时，你可能会感受到这种情感。

Yeah.

是的。

2:12:46 It’s like memes today: if it goes viral, [inaudible 02:12:49]

这就像今天的模因：如果它像病毒一样传播开来，[听不清 02:12:49]

You know what it’s supposed to mean.

你知道这意味着什么。

It percolates through the culture.

它渗透到文化中。

It has that affect.

有这样的影响。

It has power.

它有力量。

2:12:51 I mean, and it’s actually interesting that we don’t use gestures as much in modern day.

我的意思是，有趣的是，我们在现代不再那么频繁地使用手势。

Well, I mean for me, I just love analyzing modern political figures in terms of their body language.

嗯，我的意思是对我来说，我只是喜欢根据肢体语言来分析现代政治人物。

Yes.

是的。

Because how you deliver a speech is often more important than what you say.

因为演讲的方式往往比演讲的内容更重要。

2:13:10 In fact, in the ancient world, the most famous Greek orator was a guy named Demosthenes.

事实上，在古代世界，最著名的希腊演说家是一个名叫德摩斯梯尼的人。

And once a guy came up to Demosthenes and said, “Demosthenes, tell me: what are the three most important things in giving a speech?”

有一次，一个人走到德摩斯梯尼面前说：“德摩斯梯尼，告诉我：演讲中最重要的三件事是什么？”

2:13:23 And Demosthenes said, “Well, they are delivery, delivery, and delivery.” That even the most brilliant speech, if accompanied by a boring delivery, is going to be less effective than a terrible speech given in an engaging and exciting or funny way.

德摩斯梯尼说：“嗯，就是交付、交付、交付。”即使是最精彩的演讲，如果伴随着无聊的演讲，也不会比以引人入胜、令人兴奋或有趣的方式发表的糟糕演讲更有效。

Speaking of modern day and gestures, what do you think of Donald Trump, who has these very unique kind of gestures?

说到现代和手势，您对拥有这些非常独特的手势的唐纳德·特朗普有何看法？

2:13:41 I don’t know the degree to it’s true, but he uses these handshakes when he pulls people in, that kind of stuff.

我不知道这在多大程度上属实，但当他把人们拉进来时，他会使用这些握手之类的东西。

What do you make of that?

你对此有何看法？

I mean, Trump gesticulates a lot, but it’s a fairly narrow set of gestures.

我的意思是，特朗普做了很多手势，但这是一组相当狭窄的手势。

2:13:56 I mean, if you watch him for a bit, he kind of has the same small set of gestures.

我的意思是，如果你仔细观察他，你会发现他也有同样的一小部分手势。

2:14:06 I want to say they’re not natural in that they’re not illustrating what he’s saying.

我想说它们不自然，因为它们没有说明他所说的内容。

It’s more just punctuation points.

这更多只是标点符号。

I think of his as more kind of these punctuation points for just going along with what he’s saying.

我认为他的标点符号更像是为了配合他所说的内容。

2:14:20 There are speakers who truly can use their hands and arms and faces creatively.

有些演讲者确实可以创造性地运用他们的手、手臂和脸。

You watch them and it’s really enhancing the speech.

当你观看它们时，你会发现它确实增强了演讲的效果。

I mean, just historically, Martin Luther King: he’s famous for a lot of good speeches, content.

我的意思是，从历史上看，马丁·路德·金：他以许多精彩的演讲和内容而闻名。

He was a good gesticulator, too.

他也是一个很好的手势师。

He knew how to use his body.

他知道如何运用自己的身体。

2:14:40 On the other hand, Adolf Hitler was a phenomenal gesticulator.

另一方面，阿道夫·希特勒是一位非凡的手势手。

If you watch some of his speeches; even just turn off the sound and watch them; he’s doing all kinds of stuff.

如果你看过他的一些演讲；甚至关掉声音然后观看；他正在做各种各样的事情。

And he’s really emphasizing his points in a very creative way.

他确实以一种非常有创意的方式强调了他的观点。

2:14:55 This is what’s fascinating about oratory and public speaking, is it’s this two-edged sword.

这就是演讲和公开演讲的迷人之处，它是一把两刃剑。

You can use these techniques for good, or you can absolutely use them for evil.

你可以用这些技术来做善事，也可以用它们来做坏事。

You know?

你知道吗？

Yeah.

是的。

The very same techniques in the hands of MLK, you say, “This is wonderful, this is fantastic.” In the hands of Hitler, you say, “This is awful.

同样的技术在 MLK 手中，你会说，“这太棒了，这太棒了。”在希特勒手中，你会说：“这太可怕了。

2:15:08 Look, he’s persuading a nation to commit atrocities.”

看，他正在说服一个国家犯下暴行。”

I encourage people to watch the speeches of Hitler.

我鼓励人们观看希特勒的演讲。

2:15:20 The oratory skill there, to be able to channel the resentment and the frustration of a people, and control it and direct it to any direction he wants through speaking alone.

那里的演讲技巧，能够通过单独的讲话来引导人们的怨恨和沮丧，并控制它并将其引导到他想要的任何方向。

Yeah, it’s the visual embodiment of the words, where he’s talking about Weimar Germany being taken advantage of, supposedly, and all this stuff.

是的，这是这些词的视觉体现，他在谈论魏玛德国被利用，据说，以及所有这些东西。

2:15:41 You’re right, he’s channeling the resentment of the people and using that to his personal advantage and for cynical, evil really, purposes.

你是对的，他正在引导人们的怨恨，并利用它来谋取个人利益，并达到愤世嫉俗、邪恶的目的。

But oratory is like that.

但演讲就是这样。

2:16:01 The question I always end up asking my students, after studying Cicero and all these techniques, I say, “Okay, this is great oratory.

在研究了西塞罗和所有这些技巧之后，我总是问我的学生这个问题，我说，“好吧，这是很棒的演讲。

But do you like this?

但你喜欢这个吗？

Is this good that this works on human beings?”

这对人类有效吗？”

I remember Noam Chomsky once was asked, “Why do you speak in such a monotone way?”

我记得有人问诺姆·乔姆斯基：“你为什么说话这么单调？”

2:16:18 And he said, “Well, I want the truth of my statement, the content of my statements to speak; that I don’t want you to get deluded by me because I’m such a charismatic and eloquent speaker.

他说：“好吧，我希望我的陈述是真实的，我陈述的内容是真实的；我不想让你被我欺骗，因为我是一个很有魅力、能言善辩的演讲者。

The more monotone I speak, the more you’ll listen to the content of the words.”

我说得越单调，你就越能听出话里的内容。”

Right.

对。

2:16:34 I want you just focusing on the content and not being distracted.

我希望你只专注于内容，不要分心。

2:16:38 I’ll tell you also with Cicero: one of the things that he and other people who write about Roman oratory do is to say, “And you can do this stuff badly,” in which case it backfires horribly.

我还可以和西塞罗一起告诉你：他和其他写罗马演讲的人所做的一件事就是说，“你可以把这件事做得很糟糕”，在这种情况下，它会适得其反。

2:16:49 So you can have people who attempt to gesticulate.

所以你可能会遇到尝试打手势的人。

Again, modern politicians, you’ll see this sometime where they feel like, “I’m supposed to be making hand gestures,” and they’re terrible at it.

再说一遍，现代政治家，有时你会看到他们感觉“我应该做手势”，但他们对此很糟糕。

And it undercuts it.

它削弱了它。

2:17:00 Cicero and Quintilian give some very amusing examples from ancient Rome.

西塞罗和昆体良举了一些来自古罗马的非常有趣的例子。

He says, there was this one guy who when he spoke, looked like he was trying to swat away flies because there were just these awkward gestures.

他说，有一个人，当他说话时，看起来像是在试图赶走苍蝇，因为只有这些尴尬的手势。

Or another who looked like he was trying balancing a boat in choppy seas.

或者另一个看起来像是在波涛汹涌的大海中试图保持平衡的小船。

2:17:17 And my favorite is there was one orator who supposedly was prone to making, I guess, languid supple motions.

我最喜欢的是一位演说家，我猜他可能会做出慵懒而柔软的动作。

They actually named a dance after this guy, and his name was Titius.

他们实际上以这个人的名字命名了一种舞蹈，他的名字叫提蒂乌斯。

And so Romans could do the Titius, which is this dance that was imitating this orator who had these comically bad gesticulation.

所以罗马人可以跳提丢斯舞，这种舞蹈模仿了这位有着滑稽糟糕手势的演说家。

2:17:40 So not enough gesticulation is a problem.

所以手势不够是一个问题。

Too much gesticulation is a problem.

过多的手势是一个问题。

You have to hit the sweet spot.

你必须找到最佳点。

It has to seem natural.

它必须看起来很自然。

It has to seem varied.

它必须看起来多种多样。

It has to conform to the meaning of the words, not distract from it.

它必须符合单词的含义，而不是分散注意力。

Yeah, natural, authentic to who you are.

是的，自然，真实的你是谁。

Authentic.

正品。

Which is when people try to copy the gestures of another person, it usually doesn’t go well.

当人们试图模仿另一个人的手势时，通常效果并不好。

Right.

对。

You have to interpret, integrate into your own personality and so on.

你必须去诠释、融入你自己的个性等等。

But gestures is really fun.

但手势真的很有趣。

It’s fascinating.

这很有趣。

I enjoyed my dissertation a lot doing that.

我非常喜欢我的论文这样做。

2:18:09 Because what I was trying to do there was to literally reconstruct them, so to say, “What were the actual gestures?”

因为我试图在那里做的是从字面上重建它们，所以说，“实际的手势是什么？”

2:18:18 I did that by comparing the literary accounts of the handbooks with, again, Roman art: looking at statues of Romans and things, and just trying to say, “Okay, what were some of the gestures they actually used here?”

我通过将手册中的文学描述与罗马艺术进行比较来做到这一点：看着罗马人的雕像和其他东西，然后想说，“好吧，他们在这里实际使用的一些手势是什么？”

And in that way, the people from that time come to life, in your mind, in your work, which is fascinating.

通过这种方式，那个时代的人们在你的脑海中、你的作品中变得栩栩如生，这是令人着迷的。

Well again, it’s this pragmatic thing.

再说一遍，这就是务实的事情。

2:18:35 I want to know, “Okay, how does this work?”

我想知道，“好吧，这是如何运作的？”

Could we talk about the role of religion in the Roman Empire?

我们能谈谈宗教在罗马帝国中的作用吗？

2:18:39 What’s the story there?

那里有什么故事？

I mean, religion’s interesting.

我的意思是，宗教很有趣。

2:18:49 Because in my mind, the rise to dominance in a lot of the world of monotheistic religions is one of the huge turning points, because it’s just such a different mentality.

因为在我看来，一神论宗教在许多世界中占据主导地位是巨大的转折点之一，因为这是一种完全不同的心态。

2:19:05 I mean, it’s very, very different where you say, “There’s one God, and it’s my God,” versus, “Okay, I believe in this god, but there’s an infinite number of legitimate gods.” And nowadays, particularly in the West, we tend to view the monotheistic perspective as the norm.

我的意思是，你说“只有一位神，这是我的神”与“好吧，我相信这个神，但合法的神有无数个”是非常非常不同的。如今，尤其是在西方，我们倾向于将一神论观点视为常态。

But for more than half of human history, it was not.

但在超过一半的人类历史中，情况并非如此。

2:19:28 It used to be the notion in a lot of Roman history, up until about 300 AD, the idea was, “Well, there’s just a ton of gods floating around.

这曾经是许多罗马历史中的概念，直到公元 300 年左右，这个想法是，“嗯，周围只有大量的神灵。

Maybe you worship that one, and I worship these two that I like.

也许你崇拜那个，我崇拜我喜欢的这两个。

And the guy across the street worships the oak tree in his backyard, and it’s all good.”

街对面的那个人崇拜他后院的橡树，这一切都很好。”

2:19:46 They’re all legitimate things, versus, “Oh, no, no, no.

它们都是合法的东西，而不是“哦，不，不，不。

Now there is one God, and only one God that’s the correct answer.” And as soon as you do that, religion becomes foregrounded in your decision making much more.

现在只有一位神，而且只有一位神才是正确的答案。”一旦你这样做了，宗教就会在你的决策中变得更加重要。

I mean, the Romans had religion, but it wasn’t really driving anything, if you know what I mean.

我的意思是，罗马人有宗教，但它并没有真正推动任何事情，如果你明白我的意思的话。

It was auxiliary to things, rather than a central force.

它是事物的辅助力量，而不是中心力量。

For a lot of Roman history, you had standard, I guess, pagan polytheism where there’s a bunch of gods.

我想，在罗马历史的大部分历史中，都有标准的异教多神论，那里有一群神。

There’s certain gods who are associated with the Roman state.

有些神与罗马国家有关。

There would be prayer said to those gods on behalf of the Roman state.

人们会代表罗马国家向这些神祈祷。

But you weren’t trying to execute the will of Zeus or something, or Jupiter or Mars or anybody else.

但你并没有试图执行宙斯或其他什么东西、木星、火星或其他任何人的意志。

2:20:34 And in your private life, it was the same thing.

在你的私人生活中，也是同样的事情。

You might ask certain gods for help, but it wasn’t as much of a dominant thing in your own existence.

你可能会向某些神寻求帮助，但这在你自己的存在中并不是那么重要。

So I think that’s a real transition point where religion started to become so foregrounded.

所以我认为这是一个真正的转变点，宗教开始变得如此重要。

2:20:48 And as soon as you get the monotheistic religions; Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in particular; it really shifts how people start to think about themselves in relationship to the world around them.

一旦你得到一神论宗教；特别是犹太教、基督教和伊斯兰教；它确实改变了人们开始思考自己与周围世界的关系的方式。

So Jesus was born during the rule of Emperor Augustus.

所以耶稣诞生于奥古斯都皇帝统治期间。

Yep.

是的。

2:21:03 Which is kind of neat, that really influential people in the realm of political events and religious events co-existed.

这有点巧妙，在政治事件和宗教事件领域真正有影响力的人并存。

What are the odds?

几率有多大？

I mean, yeah, there’s certain moments in history where just a lot of interesting, powerful people come together and make history.

我的意思是，是的，在历史上的某些时刻，很多有趣、强大的人聚集在一起创造历史。

2:21:14 And he was crucified under Emperor Tiberius’ rule.

他在提比略皇帝的统治下被钉在十字架上。

Yep.

是的。

Why were the ideas of Jesus seen as a threat by the emperor?

为什么耶稣的思想被皇帝视为威胁？

The thing that causes conflicts between the Romans and Christians is a little bit strange.

造成罗马人和基督徒之间冲突的事情有点奇怪。

2:21:32 It’s all with this where the Romans had a tradition of on the emperor’s birthday, saying a prayer basically wishing him good luck.

正因为如此，罗马人在皇帝生日时有一个传统，祈祷他好运。

But technically it’s in the form of sacrificing to that part of the emperor that might become divine after his death.

但从技术上讲，它的形式是牺牲皇帝死后可能成为神圣的部分。

To the Romans, this is the equivalent of a patriotism act: saying The Pledge of Allegiance or something to the country.

对于罗马人来说，这相当于一种爱国行为：对国家宣誓效忠之类的。

2:22:05 But of course, to Christians, this is worshiping another God.

但当然，对于基督徒来说，这是敬拜另一个神。

And I think there’s almost a failure of communication here, that the Romans just at least initially didn’t quite understand.

我认为这里几乎存在沟通失败，罗马人至少一开始不太理解。

2:22:14 This is really problematic for these people, because they’re coming from a polytheistic perspective where, “Yeah, everybody has different gods.

这对这些人来说确实是个问题，因为他们来自多神论的观点，“是的，每个人都有不同的神。

So what?

所以呢？

This isn’t a religious problem.

这不是一个宗教问题。

This is a political one.

这是一个政治问题。

Then why won’t you send good wishes to the emperor?

那你为什么不给皇上送去祝福呢？

If you’re a loyal Roman, this is something you should want to do.”

如果你是一个忠诚的罗马人，这就是你应该想做的事情。”

2:22:33 And many of the early Christians, I think would’ve been fine with that.

我认为许多早期的基督徒对此不会有意见。

But it took the form of what they were asked to do was to basically worship another God.

但他们被要求做的形式基本上是崇拜另一个神。

And that was the sticking point.

这就是症结所在。

2:22:46 And this is where I think movies have warped some of our images of Roman history: that Hollywood loves to depict very early Christians.

我认为这就是电影扭曲了我们对罗马历史的一些形象的地方：好莱坞喜欢描绘非常早期的基督徒。

I’m talking, like, first 200 years here after the ministry of Christ as a group, that all the Romans were obsessed with, that they were constantly trying to persecute and all this.

我说的是，在基督作为一个团体传道后的头 200 年里，所有罗马人都痴迷于此，他们不断地试图迫害等等。

Honestly, I think the Romans at that point were more just indifferent or didn’t know what was going on.

老实说，我认为当时的罗马人只是漠不关心或者不知道发生了什么。

2:23:13 And if you look at some of the primary sources of that time, I mean, there’s this very famous letter by a guy named Pliny who was a Roman governor of a province in the East.

如果你看一下当时的一些主要资料，我的意思是，有一封非常著名的信，作者是一位名叫普林尼的人，他是东部一个省的罗马总督。

He had the habit of writing letters to the Roman emperor at the time, who was Trajan, every time he had a problem with being governor.

每当他在担任总督时遇到问题时，他就有写信给当时的罗马皇帝图拉真的习惯。

2:23:31 This is great.

这太棒了。

This is the two highest governmental officials in the Roman world hammering out policy between them, the emperor and one of his governors.

这是罗马世界的两位最高政府官员，在皇帝和他的一位总督之间制定政策。

This is about 100 years, 100 AD about.

这大约是100年，公元100年左右。

2:23:43 And Pliny says, “Hey, Emperor, I had this issue.

普林尼说：“嘿，皇帝，我遇到了这个问题。

I had these people come before me called Christians.

我让这些人来到我面前，称为基督徒。

I don’t quite know what to do with them.

我不太知道该怎么处理它们。

What should my policy be?

我的政策应该是什么？

Here’s what I know about them.” And what he knows is almost nothing.

这是我对他们的了解。”而他所知道的，几乎是一无所有。

I mean, it’s this almost comic-like garbling.

我的意思是，这几乎是喜剧般的乱码。

2:24:00 ” They have this weird thing where they get together on some day of the week and they swear oaths to one another not to do bad stuff,” which is of course his garbled understanding of the 10 Commandments.

“他们有一件奇怪的事情，他们在一周的某一天聚在一起，互相发誓不做坏事，”这当然是他对十诫的错误理解。

“And then they have breakfast together and they eat food,” and this is communion.

“然后他们一起吃早餐，吃食物”，这就是圣餐。

But he doesn’t get that that’s what’s going on.

但他不明白这就是正在发生的事情。

And so he’s really ignorant.

所以他真的很无知。

2:24:21 But I think that the broader point is, okay, this is one of the best-educated, best-traveled Romans who has the most experience in the empire, has been all over the empire, and what does he know about Christianity?

但我认为更广泛的一点是，好吧，这是受过最好教育、游历最多、在帝国最有经验的罗马人之一，走遍了整个帝国，他对基督教了解多少？

Basically nothing.

基本上什么都没有。

2:24:37 So if one of the best-educated, most widely traveled guys really doesn’t know much about them, that suggests that not many people did at this point in time.

因此，如果一位受过最好教育、游历最广的人真的不太了解他们，那就表明当时没有多少人了解他们。

At this time, was a fringe movement that really did-

这时，真正发生的边缘运动是——

Yeah, very fringe.

是的，非常边缘。

2:24:50 I mean, it was one of hundreds of little mystery religions, the Romans thought of it as.

我的意思是，罗马人认为它是数百个神秘的小宗教之一。

These are religions that have some sort of revealed knowledge and that make more personal appeals to people.

这些宗教具有某种启示性的知识，并且对人们更具个人吸引力。

2:25:03 Now, stepping back from this in a broad way, I think you can say that Christianity really was different in some ways, and had some things that maybe the Romans should rightfully have viewed as a threat.

现在，从广义上退一步来说，我认为你可以说基督教在某些方面确实是不同的，并且有一些东西也许罗马人理应将其视为威胁。

I mean, the Romans are a people very focused on this world: citizenship, what you do.

我的意思是，罗马人是一个非常关注这个世界的民族：公民身份，你所做的事情。

2:25:20 Christianity, in essence, has a focus on the next world.

基督教本质上关注的是来世。

So this world isn’t as important as what you’re setting yourself up for.

所以这个世界并不重要，重要的是你为自己设定的目标。

2:25:27 And even worse, from a Roman perspective, I’m kind of saying, “Okay, if I were a Roman,” Romans are all about making distinctions between people.

更糟糕的是，从罗马人的角度来看，我有点想说，“好吧，如果我是罗马人，”罗马人就是要在人与人之间做出区分。

Citizen, non-citizen, man, woman, free, slave.

公民，非公民，男人，女人，自由人，奴隶。

2:25:41 Christianity comes along and says, “In God’s eyes, you’re all equal.” Now, that’s a pretty problematic idea if you’re deeply invested in Roman hierarchy.

基督教出现并说：“在上帝眼中，你们都是平等的。”现在，如果你对罗马等级制度有深入的了解，那么这是一个相当有问题的想法。

And I think it is no surprise that among the earliest converts to Christianity are women and slaves, and in particular, female slaves.

我认为最早皈依基督教的人中有妇女和奴隶，特别是女奴隶，这并不奇怪。

2:26:05 Now, who are they?

现在，他们是谁？

They’re the people at the rock bottom of the Roman hierarchy of status, which the Romans are obsessed with status.

他们是罗马社会地位最底层的人，罗马人对地位非常着迷。

But here’s a religion that says, “That doesn’t matter.”

但这里有一种宗教说：“这并不重要。”

2:26:16 And in that same letter to Pliny, Pliny says, “Okay, in this group of Christians I’ve heard about, their leaders are two female slaves they call ‘deaconesses.'” Now, this is really early.

在给普林尼的同一封信中，普林尼说：“好吧，在我听说的这群基督徒中，他们的领袖是两名被她们称为‘女执事’的女奴隶。”现在，这还很早。

This is before the church exists, right?

这是在教会存在之前，对吗？

There’s no church structure yet.

还没有教堂结构。

And who is leading the local congregation of Christians?

谁在领导当地的基督徒会众？

Two slave women.

两个女奴。

2:26:39 So that’s an interesting moment, and that’s not necessarily the image we get of early Christianity.

所以这是一个有趣的时刻，但这不一定是我们对早期基督教的印象。

But you can see how for people in this social structure, that would be very appealing to them.

但你可以看到，对于处于这种社会结构中的人们来说，这对他们来说非常有吸引力。

And in some ways, yeah, it is sort of a threat to the Roman system because they’re challenging it.

在某些方面，是的，这对罗马体系是一种威胁，因为他们正在挑战它。

2:26:56 Now, the irony is, of course, 300 years after the life of Christ, the emperor converts to Christianity.

当然，讽刺的是，在基督去世 300 年后，皇帝皈依了基督教。

And another 100 years later under Theodosius, it becomes the official religion of the Roman Empire.

又过了一百年后，在狄奥多西的统治下，它成为罗马帝国的官方宗教。

So all of a sudden you have this flip-flop, where now the state itself is not just converted to Christianity, but actively promoting it and now persecuting pagans.

所以突然间出现了这种转变，现在国家本身不仅皈依了基督教，而且还积极宣传基督教，现在又迫害异教徒。

2:27:21 And the reason the emperors do that is one of the biggest problems for emperors at that point in time is legitimacy.

皇帝这样做的原因是当时皇帝面临的最大问题之一是合法性。

That there’s tons of civil wars where you have lots of different people saying, “I’m emperor.” So lots of generals declaring themselves emperor.

在无数的内战中，有很多不同的人说：“我是皇帝。”所以很多将军都称自己为皇帝。

2:27:37 Now under a polytheistic religion, you’re all just fighting.

现在在多神教的统治下，你们都只是在战斗。

It doesn’t matter.

没关系。

But if you say there is only one God, then if that God picks someone to be His emperor, they’re the only legitimate emperor.

但如果你说只有一位神，那么如果这位神选了一个人当他的皇帝，那么他就是唯一合法的皇帝。

Right?

对吗？

2:27:56 So there is a real advantage to emperors now becoming Christian.

因此，现在成为基督徒的皇帝确实有优势。

Because they can say, “We’re now a Christian empire and there’s only one God, and I’m the guy that God picked to be emperor, that means all these other people claiming to be emperors are illegitimate.”

因为他们可以说，“我们现在是一个基督教帝国，只有一位上帝，而我是上帝选为皇帝的人，这意味着所有其他自称皇帝的人都是非法的。”

Do you think that?

你这么认为吗？

2:28:14 Or is there other factors that explain why Christianity was able to spread?

还是有其他因素可以解释基督教为何能够传播？

Well, that’s why it’s appealing to the emperors.

嗯，这就是为什么它对皇帝有吸引力。

2:28:20 And we’re talking here, I mean, the religious answer is people see the light, right?

我们在这里谈论的是，我的意思是，宗教的答案是人们看到了光明，对吗？

It’s a faith-based thing.

这是一个基于信仰的事情。

I’m looking at this as a historian.

我以历史学家的身份看待这个问题。

2:28:32 So putting aside religious feeling and saying, “Okay, if I’m doing an analysis of this as a social phenomenon, what would be appealing to people?” And there is that very compelling reason for emperors to want to go to Christianity because it helps them with their biggest problem, which is legitimacy.

因此，抛开宗教情感，说：“好吧，如果我将其作为一种社会现象进行分析，那么什么会吸引人们呢？”皇帝们有一个非常令人信服的理由想要皈依基督教，因为这可以帮助他们解决最大的问题，即合法性。

2:28:48 Now, if you’re an ordinary person, what is the appeal of Christianity?

那么，如果你是一个普通人，基督教的吸引力是什么？

Well, we already looked at a couple of them.

好吧，我们已经看过其中的几个了。

One of them is that it promises you a reward in the afterlife.

其中之一是它承诺你在来世会得到奖励。

2:28:58 I mean, the Roman and Greek notions of the afterlife aren’t that appealing.

我的意思是，罗马和希腊的来世观念并不那么吸引人。

Either you just turn into dust, or at best you turn into this kind of ghost thing that floats around something that looks like a Greek gymnasium, which is like a bunch of grassy fields.

要么你只是变成灰尘，要么充其量你变成这种幽灵般的东西，漂浮在看起来像希腊体育馆的地方，就像一堆草地。

It’s not so hot.

不太热。

2:29:14 So here you’re offered the idea of, “Oh, you go to paradise forever.

所以在这里你会得到这样的想法：“哦，你永远进入天堂了。

That sounds really good.” And secondly, for a lot of people in Roman society, that notion of, “Here’s something that says I’m valuable as a human being.

听起来确实不错。”其次，对于罗马社会的很多人来说，“这表明我作为一个人是有价值的。

It doesn’t matter whether I’m free or slave.

我是自由人还是奴隶并不重要。

It doesn’t matter whether I’m Roman or non-Roman.

我是罗马人还是非罗马人并不重要。

It doesn’t matter if I’m man or woman.

我是男人还是女人并不重要。

Here’s something that says I have equal value.” That’s enormously appealing.

这表明我具有同等的价值。”这非常有吸引力。

2:29:37 And finally, early Christians, I mean, they honestly, a lot of them do good works.

最后，早期的基督徒，我的意思是，老实说，他们中的很多人都做了善事。

They take care of the sick, they feed the poor.

他们照顾病人，为穷人提供食物。

I mean, if you look at Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, that’s the stuff He really hammers.

我的意思是，如果你看看耶稣在登山宝训中的内容，你会发现这就是他真正锤击的东西。

If we look at the words of Jesus when He says, “What do you do to be a Christian?”

如果我们看看耶稣的话，当他说：“你要做什么才能成为基督徒？”

2:29:51 A lot of it is take care of the unfortunate, take care of people who are sick, take care of people who are starving.

其中很多是照顾不幸的人，照顾生病的人，照顾挨饿的人。

And a lot of the early Christians really take that seriously.

许多早期基督徒确实认真对待这一点。

They are helping people out.

他们正在帮助人们摆脱困境。

So that’s appealing.

所以这很有吸引力。

They’re the good kind of populist, and populist messages spread.

他们是优秀的民粹主义者，民粹主义信息得到传播。

2:30:14 Let me ask you about gladiators.

让我问你关于角斗士的事。

Switch our pace here.

在这里改变我们的节奏。

What role did they play in Roman society?

他们在罗马社会中扮演什么角色？

I mean, okay, gladiator games obviously become a popular form of entertainment.

我的意思是，好吧，角斗士游戏显然已经成为一种流行的娱乐形式。

2:30:23 And they’re one of the ones that’s captured people’s imaginations for all sorts of reasons.

它们是出于各种原因激发人们想象力的作品之一。

I mean, it’s dramatic.

我的意思是，这很戏剧性。

2:30:33 But also I think it’s that apparent contradiction.

但我也认为这是明显的矛盾。

That in so many ways, Roman society seems familiar to us.

从很多方面来说，罗马社会对我们来说似乎都很熟悉。

In so many ways, it seems sophisticated and appealing.

从很多方面来看，它看起来都很复杂且有吸引力。

Law is wonderful, all this.

法律是美妙的，这一切。

But yet, for fun, they watched people fight to the death.

然而，为了好玩，他们观看人们战斗至死。

So how do you reconcile these things?

那么你如何协调这些事情呢？

2:30:53 Gladiators, I find very interesting because they’re an example of what historians call status dissonance.

我觉得角斗士很有趣，因为他们是历史学家所说的地位失调的一个例子。

It’s someone who in society has high status in some ways, and very low or despised status in another.

指在某些方面社会地位很高，而在另一些方面地位很低或受到轻视的人。

2:31:12 So gladiators, most of them were slaves, the lowest of the low in Roman society, right?

那么角斗士，大部分都是奴隶，是罗马社会下层中的最低层，对吧？

Also, they’re fighting for other people’s pleasure, and dying sometimes for other people’s pleasure.

而且，他们为别人的快乐而战，有时甚至为了别人的快乐而死。

2:31:25 And the Romans had a real thing about this: your body being used for others’ pleasure.

罗马人对此有一个真实的看法：你的身体被用来取悦他人。

Even a humble working person who hired themselves out for labor, the Romans thought that was innately demeaning, because you’re using your body for someone else’s benefit or pleasure.

罗马人认为，即使是一个卑微的工人，自己受雇从事劳动，这本质上也是一种侮辱，因为你正在利用自己的身体来为别人谋取利益或快乐。

2:31:42 They didn’t have this notion of the dignity of hard labor or something.

他们没有艰苦劳动的尊严之类的概念。

They thought the only noble profession was farming, okay, because there you generate something and you’re producing it for yourself.

他们认为唯一崇高的职业是农业，好吧，因为在那里你会产生一些东西，并且你正在为自己生产它。

But if you work for someone else, you’re demeaning yourself.

但如果你为别人工作，你就是在贬低自己。

And gladiator’s the worst of the worst, right?

角斗士是最糟糕的，对吧？

You’re performing for someone else’s pleasure.

你表演是为了取悦别人。

So on the one hand, they’re very low status.

所以一方面，他们的地位非常低。

But on the other hand, successful gladiators get famous.

但另一方面，成功的角斗士却出名了。

People admire them, women find them attractive, they’re celebrities.

人们钦佩他们，女人觉得他们有吸引力，他们是名人。

This is the status dissonance.

这就是地位的不和谐。

You have these people who, on the one hand, formally are very low status in society, but yet are very popular on the other hand.

这些人一方面在社会上的地位很低，但另一方面却很受欢迎。

2:32:23 Another kind of myth about gladiators is that they were just dying all the time.

关于角斗士的另一种神话是他们一直在死去。

I mean, you watch movies, and again, they’ll always throw a bunch of gladiators and they all die.

我的意思是，你看电影时，他们总是会扔出一群角斗士，然后他们都死了。

I think some scholars did a study of, like, 100 fights we know of where we know some details.

我认为一些学者对我们所知道的 100 场比赛进行了研究，其中我们了解了一些细节。

And I think 10% of those ended in the death of one of the people.

我认为其中 10% 的事件以其中一人死亡告终。

2:32:44 So gladiators are a lot more like boxing matches, where you’re watching a display of skill between two people who are more or less evenly matched in terms of their abilities.

所以角斗士更像是拳击比赛，你会看到两个能力或多或少旗鼓相当的人之间的技巧展示。

And probably they’ll survive, though there’s a chance that one of them might get injured.

他们很可能会活下来，尽管其中一人有可能受伤。

In fact, one might die.

事实上，一个人可能会死。

2:33:04 Having said all that, in the end, you really are having people fight and potentially die for the pleasure of an audience.

话虽如此，最终，你确实是在让人们为了观众的愉悦而战斗，甚至可能死亡。

And anthropologists and Roman historians like to speculate, “Why did the Romans do this?”

人类学家和罗马历史学家喜欢猜测，“罗马人为什么这么做？”

2:33:17 The Romans address it.

罗马人解决了这个问题。

I mean, there’s a famous thing where a Roman says, “We Romans, we’re a violent people.

我的意思是，有一个著名的事情，一个罗马人说：“我们罗马人，我们是一个暴力的民族。

We’re a warlike people.

我们是好战的民族。

And so it’s fitting that we should be accustomed to the sight of death and violence.” Kind of works.

因此，我们应该习惯死亡和暴力的景象。”有点作品。

2:33:34 There’s a more symbolic interpretation that says, “The amphitheater is an expression of Roman dominance,” a symbolic expression.

有一种更具象征意义的解释说，“圆形剧场是罗马统治地位的表达”，一种象征性的表达。

Because what you have are all segments of Roman society gathered together to control the fate of others.

因为罗马社会的各个阶层聚集在一起来控制他人的命运。

2:33:50 You have foreigners, you have wild animals, you have criminals, you have other people.

这里有外国人，有野生动物，有罪犯，还有其他人。

And we are symbolically asserting our dominance over those groups by determining, “Do you live or do you die?” And that kind of works, too.

我们通过确定“你是活还是死？”来象征性地宣称我们对这些群体的统治地位。这种方法也有效。

2:34:06 And the cynical one is, humans like violence.

愤世嫉俗的是，人类喜欢暴力。

I mean, when people watch a hockey game, what gets them most excited?

我的意思是，当人们观看曲棍球比赛时，什么让他们最兴奋？

The fight.

战斗。

When people watch car racing, there’s a crash.

当人们观看赛车比赛时，就会发生车祸。

What’s going to be shown on the news?

新闻中会显示什么？

It’s the crash.

这是崩溃。

There’s something dark in human nature sometimes that likes violence.

人性中有些阴暗的东西有时喜欢暴力。

And maybe the Romans are just being more honest about it than we are.

也许罗马人只是比我们更诚实。

I think Dan Carlin has a really great episode called Painfotainment.

我认为丹·卡林（Dan Carlin）有一集非常精彩，名为 Painfotainment。

2:34:28 I think in that episode, he suggests the hypothetical: that if we did something like a gladiator games today to the death, that the whole world would tune in.

我认为在那一集中，他提出了一个假设：如果我们今天做一些类似角斗士游戏的事情直到死亡，那么整个世界都会关注。

Yeah.

是的。

Especially if it was anonymous.

特别是如果它是匿名的。

2:34:45 We have a thin veil of civility, underneath which would probably still be something deep within us would be attracted to that violence.

我们有一层薄薄的文明面纱，在这面纱之下，我们内心深处可能仍然有某种东西会被暴力所吸引。

Yeah, I mean, yeah, is it human nature?

是的，我的意思是，是的，这是人性吗？

2:34:57 Why do people slow down when there’s a car wreck and try and see what’s happening?

为什么人们在发生车祸时会放慢速度并尝试看看发生了什么？

2:35:04 On the other hand, to be fair, I mean there were Romans at the time who morally objected to them and said, “This is morally degenerate to take pleasure in this, and that’s wrong.” So I think in all eras, you have a diversity of opinions.

另一方面，公平地说，我的意思是当时有罗马人在道德上反对他们，并说：“以此为乐是道德败坏，这是错误的。”所以我认为在任何时代，都有不同的观点。

There’s no unanimous take on what this is or what this means.

对于这是什么或这意味着什么，没有一致的看法。

Who usually were the gladiators?

角斗士通常是谁？

2:35:23 Was it slaves?

是奴隶吗？

Was it-

是不是——

Well, the most common source, again, is prisoners of war.

嗯，最常见的来源还是战俘。

2:35:26 If you conquer some people and they seem to be warlike, you might well consign some of them to fight in the arena.

如果你征服了一些人，而他们看起来好战，你很可能会派他们中的一些人去竞技场上战斗。

2:35:36 And the other thing about gladiators is they were highly trained professionals.

角斗士的另一件事是他们是训练有素的专业人士。

The gladiator schools who trained them were spending a lot of money to train these people.

培养他们的角斗士学校可是花了很多钱来培养这些人的。

And it wasn’t just, “We take some guy and throw them into the arena,” like you see in movies all the time.

这不仅仅是“我们把一些人扔进竞技场”，就像你在电影中经常看到的那样。

These were people that you’d invested a lot of money, and that’s why you don’t really want to see them killed.

这些人是你投入了很多钱的人，这就是为什么你真的不想看到他们被杀。

2:35:58 But yeah, mostly they’re prisoners of war.

但是，是的，他们大多是战俘。

I mean, in very rare instances you might have a free person volunteering, or even selling themselves to fight as gladiators.

我的意思是，在极少数情况下，你可能会有一个自由人自愿参加，甚至出卖自己作为角斗士参加战斗。

But much more common was that.

但更常见的是这种情况。

2:36:11 And what’s interesting is some people wouldn’t do it.

有趣的是有些人不会这样做。

I mean, there’s a lot of instances of gladiators refusing to fight and committing suicide, which you don’t hear.

我的意思是，有很多角斗士拒绝战斗并自杀的例子，但你没有听说过。

There was one German who was supposed to fight as a gladiator.

有一个德国人应该作为角斗士参加战斗。

Instead, he stuck his head between the spokes of a wagon that was spinning and snapped his own neck.

相反，他把头伸进一辆旋转的马车的辐条之间，扭断了自己的脖子。

2:36:31 There were a group of 29 Germans who all said, “We’re not going to fight for the Romans’ pleasure.” And they strangled one another the night before they were supposed to fight.

一群 29 名德国人都说：“我们不会为罗马人的快乐而战。”在他们应该战斗的前一天晚上，他们互相勒死了。

So I mean, you have people sort of objecting to being complicit in this kind of performance as well,

所以我的意思是，有人也反对参与这种表演，

And they also had interest in animals.

他们也对动物感兴趣。

Yes.

是的。

Humans fought animals, exotic animals.

人类与动物、外来动物战斗。

And animals fought animals.

动物与动物打架。

Animals fought animals.

动物与动物打斗。

The Romans were a little weird with their animal thing.

罗马人对动物的态度有点奇怪。

2:36:56 They loved exotic animals, but mostly they liked to see exotic animals die.

他们喜欢外来动物，但最喜欢看到外来动物死亡。

2:37:04 I mean, there was an enormous industry collecting wild beasts, transporting them to Rome: which is no easy matter to transport elephants and giraffes and rhinos, particularly in this era of technology.

我的意思是，当时有一个巨大的产业来收集野兽，并将它们运到罗马：运输大象、长颈鹿和犀牛并不是一件容易的事，特别是在这个科技时代。

But they were draining Africa and bringing lions and all these things and sacrificing them.

但他们正在耗尽非洲的资源，带来狮子和所有这些东西并牺牲它们。

And what about the different venues?

那么不同的场地又如何呢？

2:37:25 I mean, there’s the legendary Colosseum.

我的意思是，那里有传说中的罗马斗兽场。

What is the importance of this place?

这个地方有什么重要性？

Well, the Colosseum’s real name is the Flavian Amphitheater.

好吧，罗马斗兽场的真名是弗拉维安露天剧场。

2:37:32 It’s interesting because for a long time, Rome always had a chariot racing arena, the Circus Maximus.

这很有趣，因为很长一段时间以来，罗马一直有一个战车比赛场地，即马克西穆斯竞技场。

But it didn’t have a permanent gladiatorial venue until relatively late, till about 80 AD, during the reign of the Emperor Vespasian.

但直到相对较晚的时期，即公元 80 年左右，韦斯帕芗皇帝统治时期，这里才拥有永久的角斗场。

He built this thing.

他建造了这个东西。

He built the Flavian Amphitheater; he was from the Flavian family of emperors.

他建造了弗拉维安露天剧场；他来自弗拉维皇帝家族。

And he did it as a deliberate act of propaganda.

他这样做是一种故意的宣传行为。

2:38:03 Before him had been Nero, who was seen as a crazy or bad emperor.

在他之前的是尼禄，他被视为一个疯狂或坏的皇帝。

One of Nero’s indulgences is he had built this enormous palace for himself called the Golden House.

尼禄的嗜好之一是他为自己建造了这座巨大的宫殿，称为黄金屋。

It was kind of this pleasure palace with 50 dining rooms and all this stuff, and it was basically wasting a ton of money on him.

这有点像一座游乐宫殿，有 50 个餐厅和所有这些东西，这基本上在他身上浪费了大量的钱。

2:38:25 So right on the site where Nero had his Golden House, Vespasian says, “I’m going to erect a new building on top of it that’s going to be for the pleasure of the people.” So it was very much a political statement, that “My dynasty is going to be about serving Romans, not serving ourselves.” That’s why he builds the Flavian Amphitheater.

因此，就在尼禄拥有黄金屋的地方，维斯帕芗说：“我将在上面建造一座新建筑，以供人们娱乐。”所以这在很大程度上是一个政治声明，“我的王朝将是为罗马人服务，而不是为我们自己服务。”这就是他建造弗拉维安露天剧场的原因。

2:38:47 The funds he uses from it is basically from looting Jerusalem.

他所使用的资金基本上来自于对耶路撒冷的掠夺。

Because the other thing he had done just before this is he had sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple there, in fact, he and his son Titus.

因为他在此之前所做的另一件事是他洗劫了耶路撒冷并摧毁了那里的圣殿，事实上，他和他的儿子提多。

And so this is what he now builds in Rome is his gift to the people of Rome.

所以这就是他现在在罗马建造的东西，是他给罗马人民的礼物。

But it’s interesting to think about that place, to think about that relationship with violence across centuries for spectacle, watching people fight.

但思考那个地方，思考几个世纪以来与暴力的关系，观看人们的战斗，是很有趣的。

2:39:04 And like you said, only 10% of the time it led to the death.

正如你所说，只有 10% 的情况会导致死亡。

But I read that still a lot of people died.

但我读到仍然有很多人死亡。

A lot of gladiators were killed.

许多角斗士被杀。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

There’s numbers there that’s crazy.

那里的数字很疯狂。

2:39:27 I read a full 100,000 dead.

我读了整整十万死者。

This includes gladiators, slaves, convicts, prisoners, and so on.

这包括角斗士、奴隶、罪犯、囚犯等等。

That’s a lot of people.

那是很多人。

The Flavian Amphitheater is really interesting too, just as a piece of technology, and as influence on later world.

弗拉维安露天剧场也非常有趣，不仅作为一项技术，而且对后来的世界产生了影响。

2:39:39 I mean, almost every sporting arena today owes something to the Flavian Amphitheater, the Colosseum, in terms of construction.

我的意思是，今天几乎所有的体育场馆在建造方面都归功于弗拉维安露天剧场、罗马斗兽场。

2:39:52 It was amazingly sophisticated building.

这是一座极其复杂的建筑。

I mean, it had retractable awnings and elevators and ramps that things could just pop up into the arena from below.

我的意思是，它有可伸缩的遮阳篷、电梯和坡道，东西可以从下面弹出到竞技场中。

And it-

还有它——

2:40:00 …

……

just pop up into the arena from below.

只需从下面弹出到竞技场即可。

And it had very well-designed passages where everybody could file in and file out very efficiently, and they were all numbered.

它有设计精良的通道，每个人都可以非常高效地进出，而且都编号了。

So I mean, it’s one of, I think, the most influential buildings in history, just because of the way that all these buildings we go to today, they’re all kind of variants on it and using some of the ideas from it.

所以我的意思是，我认为它是历史上最有影响力的建筑之一，只是因为我们今天参观的所有这些建筑的方式，它们都是它的变体，并使用了其中的一些想法。

And the Romans took their construction seriously.

罗马人非常重视他们的建筑。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

2:40:25 They were good at that.

他们很擅长这一点。

So they were excellent engineers.

所以他们是优秀的工程师。

And the Romans were excellent engineers, especially when it came to what you might think of as humble stuff.

罗马人是优秀的工程师，尤其是当涉及到你可能认为不起眼的东西时。

I mean, today, we tend to think of, oh, a Roman building as shining white marble, right?

我的意思是，今天，我们倾向于认为，哦，罗马建筑是闪亮的白色大理石，对吗？

Well, the core of that building was probably concrete, and the marble is just a superficial facade.

嗯，那座建筑的核心可能是混凝土，大理石只是表面的外墙。

And if you think about the Colosseum in Rome today, all the marble has been stripped off that building.

如果你想想今天罗马的斗兽场，你会发现这座建筑的所有大理石都被剥去了。

And what you see is the concrete core, the structural core that’s left, and the Romans, I mean, they didn’t invent concrete, but they just used it more creatively than anyone had before.

你看到的是混凝土核心，剩下的结构核心，罗马人，我的意思是，他们没有发明混凝土，但他们只是比以前任何人都更有创意地使用它。

And if you look at buildings like the Greeks built, they’re all rectilinear, they’re all rectangles or squares, and they always have a lot of columns because you need to hold the roof up.

如果你看看像希腊人建造的建筑，它们都是直线的，它们都是长方形或正方形，而且它们总是有很多柱子，因为你需要支撑屋顶。

2:41:09 The Romans, because of their use of concrete, could build wooden frames, they could have curves, they could have domes, they could have all kinds of stuff.

罗马人，因为他们使用混凝土，可以建造木制框架，他们可以有曲线，他们可以有圆顶，他们可以有各种各样的东西。

And it just explodes the architectural possibilities.

它只是爆炸了建筑的可能性。

They also made a lot of use of the vault.

他们还大量利用了金库。

So if you cut rocks and arrange them so that they form a curve, you could have big vaulted spaces.

因此，如果你切割岩石并将它们排列成一条曲线，你就可以拥有巨大的拱形空间。

And they were just brilliant with their mix of things.

他们的组合非常出色。

I mean, the Pantheon is the best preserved Roman building, and it’s another brilliant building, incredibly influential.

我的意思是，万神殿是保存最完好的罗马建筑，也是另一座辉煌的建筑，影响力令人难以置信。

I mean, every capitol building in the world or museum is an imitation of the Pantheon.

我的意思是，世界上的每一座国会大厦或博物馆都是对万神殿的模仿。

The capitol in Washington, D.C., the Capitol in Madison, where I’m from, Wisconsin, Austin, where we are now, they’re all Pantheons.

华盛顿特区的国会大厦，麦迪逊的国会大厦（我的家乡），威斯康星州的国会大厦，奥斯汀的国会大厦（我们现在所在的地方），它们都是万神殿。

It’s a big dome with a triangular pediment and some columns on the front.

它是一个大圆顶，有一个三角形的山形墙，前面有一些柱子。

2:41:57 So it’s just an amazingly influential building.

所以它是一座具有惊人影响力的建筑。

But it’s brilliant because the way it’s constructed is the concrete at the bottom of the dome is both thicker and has a denser formulation, so it’s heavier where it needs to bear the weight.

但它很出色，因为它的构造方式是圆顶底部的混凝土更厚，配方更致密，因此需要承受重量的地方更重。

And then as you get further up the dome, it gets narrower and narrower, and they mix in different types of rock.

然后，当你进一步爬上穹顶时，它会变得越来越窄，并且它们混合在不同类型的岩石中。

So at the top, you’re using pumice, that very light volcanic stone.

所以在顶部，你使用的是浮石，一种非常轻的火山石。

So where you want it to be light, it’s light, and it’s here 2,000 years later.

所以你希望它在哪里变轻，它就在哪里变轻，而且 2000 年后它仍然在这里。

I mean, look around you.

我的意思是，看看你的周围。

How many buildings that we’re building` now do you think are going to be here in 2,000 years?

您认为 2000 年后我们现在正在建造的建筑物有多少？

I suspect not many.

我怀疑不多。

And it’s not only that they lasted, but they were beautiful, or at least in our current conception of beauty.

它们不仅经久不衰，而且很美丽，至少在我们当前的美观念中是这样。

Yeah, I mean, Vitruvius, his principles are things should be functional and they should be aesthetically pleasing.

是的，我的意思是，维特鲁威，他的原则是事物应该具有功能性并且应该美观。

2:42:37 So that’s a winning combination, I think.

所以我认为这是一个成功的组合。

Yeah, they pulled that off pretty well.

是的，他们做得很好。

2:42:46 If you could talk about the long line of emperors that made up the Roman Empire, how were they selected?

如果你能谈谈组成罗马帝国的一长串皇帝，他们是如何选出的？

Oh, boy.

哦，男孩。

2:42:55 We’ve been talking about Augustus’ great achievements and how clever he was with propaganda and all, this is his great failure.

我们一直在谈论奥古斯都的伟大成就以及他在宣传方面的聪明才智等等，这是他的巨大失败。

So his great failure is that he did not solve was the problem of succession.

所以他最大的失败就在于他没有解决好继承问题。

How do you ensure that the next person who follows you is not just the best person but is qualified?

您如何确保下一个追随您的人不仅是最好的人，而且是合格的人？

And he fails to do it.

但他没能做到。

So the principle he settles on is heredity.

所以他所确定的原则就是遗传。

So the nearest blood relative.

所以是最近的血亲。

And he goes through all these people, all these young kids in his family die that he keeps trying to make the heir, and he ends up making his heir Tiberius, who he never liked, it was his stepson, he didn’t like him, but he ends up inheriting it.

他经历了所有这些人，他家里所有的孩子都死了，他一直试图立为继承人，最后他立了他的继承人提比略，他从来不喜欢他，那是他的继子，他不喜欢他，但他最终继承了它。

And the next set of emperors, the Julio-Claudians, which is the family that Augustus starts, they all basically are who is the nearest male relative to the previous emperor.

而下一批皇帝，朱利奥-克劳迪安家族，也就是奥古斯都开始的家族，他们基本上都是与前任皇帝最近的男性亲戚。

And that’s how we get a lot of crazy emperors like Caligula or Nero.

这就是为什么我们有很多像卡利古拉或尼禄这样疯狂的皇帝。

2:43:53 And then the next family, the Flavians, the first guy is kind of an Augustus, it’s Vespasian, the one who builds the Flavian Amphitheater, and then one of his sons takes over, Titus, who’s okay, and then the next son takes over, Domitian, who’s nuts again.

然后是下一个家族，弗拉维家族，第一个人是奥古斯都，是维斯帕芗，建造了弗拉维圆形剧场的人，然后他的一个儿子接管了，提图斯，他还好，然后下一个儿子接管了，图密善，他又疯了。

So heredity just isn’t working, And Rome fights a couple civil wars, and in 98 AD, we’re 100 years now into the Empire, and they look back at this track record and say, “Okay, we’ve been picking our emperors by heredity and we’ve gotten some real duds here, some real problematic people.

所以遗传是行不通的，罗马打了几场内战，在公元 98 年，我们进入帝国已有 100 年了，他们回顾这一记录并说，“好吧，我们一直通过遗传来挑选我们的皇帝，我们在这里得到了一些真正的废物，一些真正有问题的人。

Is there a way to fix this?”

有办法解决这个问题吗？”

2:44:27 And this is one of the few instances where the Romans, who I keep saying are very traditional and resist change, I think actually make a change and realize we got to do something different.

这是罗马人为数不多的例子之一，我一直说罗马人非常传统并且抵制变革，我认为实际上要做出改变并意识到我们必须做一些不同的事情。

And so the next guy looks around and says, “Okay, forget who’s my nearest male relative, who’s the best qualified to be emperor after me?

于是下一个人环顾四周说：“好吧，忘了谁是我最近的男性亲戚，谁是继我之后最有资格成为皇帝的人？

I’ll pick that person and then I’ll adopt him as my son.” So they kind of stick with heredity.

我会选择那个人，然后我会收他为我的儿子。”所以他们有点坚持遗传。

Now, it’s this fake adoption, and you end up with a lot of old guys adopting middle-aged adults as their son, which is a little strange, but it works.

现在，就是这种假收养，结果很多老人收养中年成年人作为他们的儿子，这有点奇怪，但它有效。

2:45:01 And so for the next 80 years, you have only five emperors, and they’re often called the Five Good Emperors, they’re not related necessarily by blood, they sort of picked the best qualified guy, and they’re all sound, competent, good emperors.

所以在接下来的80年里，只有五个皇帝，他们通常被称为五好皇帝，他们不一定有血缘关系，他们是挑选最有资格的人，他们都是健全的、有能力的好皇帝。

And the 2nd century AD, from Nerva to Marcus Aurelius, is often regarded as the high point of the Roman Empire.

公元2世纪，从涅尔瓦到马库斯·奥勒留，通常被认为是罗马帝国的鼎盛时期。

And a lot of that comes from you have political stability, you have a succession of decent guys being emperor who rule relatively wisely, promote good policies.

其中很大一部分来自于政治稳定，有一系列正派的人当皇帝，他们的统治相对明智，推行良好的政策。

There’s other things working to Rome’s advantage, but that’s good.

还有其他一些事情对罗马有利，但这很好。

And then where it falls apart is where the last guy, Marcus Aurelius, looks around and says, “Who’s the best qualified guy to succeed me?

然后它崩溃的地方是最后一个人，马库斯·奥勒留，环顾四周说：“谁是最有资格接替我的人？

What a coincidence, it’s my own dear son.”, who turns out to be a psycho.

What a coincidence, it’s my own dear son.”, who turns out to be a psycho.

And then it all goes downhill.

然后一切就开始走下坡路。

And some people place the sort of the collapse of the Roman Empire there at the end of Marcus Aurelius’ rule.

有些人将罗马帝国的崩溃视为马库斯·奥勒留统治的末期。

Yeah, so 180 AD is one common date for an early date for the end of the Roman Empire when you…

是的，所以公元 180 年是罗马帝国终结的一个常见日期，当你……

2:46:00 Because from then on, it’s a mixed bag of good and bad emperors.

因为从那时起，皇帝就鱼龙混杂了。

At the very least, this period is when the Roman Empire is at its height on all different kinds of perspectives.

至少，从各种角度来看，这一时期都是罗马帝国的鼎盛时期。

Certainly geographically.

当然是地理上的。

2:46:18 I mean, at this point, stretches from Britain to Mesopotamia, from Egypt up to Germany.

我的意思是，在这一点上，从英国延伸到美索不达米亚，从埃及延伸到德国。

Like I said, probably about 50 million people within its boundaries.

正如我所说，其境内可能有大约 5000 万人。

Within those boundaries, there’s relative peace.

在这些界限内，有相对的和平。

So I mean, sometimes people talk about the Pax Romana.

所以我的意思是，有时人们会谈论罗马治下的和平。

I mean, the Romans are fighting lots of people, but within the boundaries, you have relative peace.

我的意思是，罗马人正在与很多人作战，但在边界内，你有相对的和平。

There’s relative economic prosperity.

经济相对繁荣。

I mean, nothing in the ancient world is that prosperous.

我的意思是，古代世界没有什么是那么繁荣的。

It’s just a different sort of economy, but it’s pretty stable.

这只是一种不同类型的经济，但相当稳定。

There’s no huge disasters happening yet.

目前还没有发生巨大的灾难。

Some plagues start in Marcus Aurelius’ reign.

有些瘟疫始于马可·奥勒留的统治时期。

But yeah, this is pretty much seen as the high point of the Roman Empire, and I think it is.

但是，是的，这几乎被视为罗马帝国的顶峰，我认为确实如此。

I think that there’s truth to that.

我认为这是事实。

Let me ask the ridiculously oversimplified question, but who do you think is the greatest Roman emperor or maybe your top three?

让我问一个过于简单化的问题，但你认为谁是最伟大的罗马皇帝，或者你认为谁是最伟大的三位皇帝？

Greatest emperor?

最伟大的皇帝？

2:47:10 I tell you what, I’ll tell you my favorite Roman who wasn’t an emperor, and that’s Marcus Agrippa, who was Augustus’ right-hand man.

我告诉你，我会告诉你我最喜欢的不是皇帝的罗马人，那就是马库斯·阿格里帕，他是奥古斯都的得力助手。

So Agrippa’s this interesting guy who is extremely talented.

所以阿格里帕是一个非常有趣且非常有才华的人。

He’s a terrific general.

他是一位了不起的将军。

He’s a terrific admiral.

他是一位了不起的海军上将。

He’s a great builder.

他是一位伟大的建设者。

He is kind of like the troubleshooter for Augustus.

He is kind of like the troubleshooter for Augustus.

He’s the guy who wins the Battle of Actium for Augustus.

他是奥古斯都赢得亚克兴战役的人。

So literally, Augustus would not have become the first emperor without Agrippa.

因此，从字面上看，如果没有阿格里帕，奥古斯都就不会成为第一位皇帝。

When Augustus rebuilds the city of Rome, it’s Agrippa that he gives the job to.

当奥古斯都重建罗马城时，他把这项工作交给了阿格里帕。

Agrippa rebuilds the campus marshes.

阿格里帕重建校园沼泽地。

He builds the first version of the Pantheon.

他建造了万神殿的第一个版本。

He personally goes through the sewers to clean them out.

他亲自穿过下水道进行清理。

And he just has this great set of qualities that he’s very self- effacing.

他拥有非常谦虚的优秀品质。

2:48:01 I think he likes power, he wants real power, but he realizes I don’t have that kind of clever politician’s ability to be the front guy, so I’ll just serve my friend, Augustus, loyally.

我认为他喜欢权力，他想要真正的权力，但他意识到我没有那种聪明的政治家当门面人物的能力，所以我只会忠诚地为我的朋友奥古斯都服务。

They were childhood friends.

他们是儿时的朋友。

I’ll win the battles for Augustus and I’ll let him take all the credit, but I’ll be his number two guy, and that’s what I’m good at.

我会为奥古斯都赢得战斗，我会让他获得所有的功劳，但我将成为他的二号人物，这就是我所擅长的。

And he realizes his limitations.

他意识到自己的局限性。

I mean, so many people don’t.

我的意思是，很多人不这样做。

So many people are like, “Oh, I just want to keep grabbing for more and more and more when it’s not something they’re good at.” And I think Agrippa says, “I’m good to this point and I’ll play that role and no more, and that’ll give me a lot of power, but I’m not going to press it.” And yeah, he’s just very hardworking, he’s modest, he’s self-effacing, he’s highly competent.

So many people are like, “Oh, I just want to keep grabbing for more and more and more when it’s not something they’re good at.”我认为阿格里帕说，“到目前为止，我已经很好了，我将扮演这个角色，不再扮演这个角色，这会给我很大的权力，但我不会施加压力。”是的，他非常勤奋，他很谦虚，他很谦虚，他非常有能力。

I wonder how many people in history that are like the drivers, the COO of the whole operation that we don’t really think about or don’t talk about enough to where they’re really the mastermind?

我想知道历史上有多少人像司机、整个运营的首席运营官一样，我们没有真正考虑或没有充分谈论他们真正的策划者？

Or the ones who make something possible.

或者那些使某事成为可能的人。

2:49:02 I mean, even in this conversation today, you would not have Alexander the Great without his father Philip II having built that army and handed it to him on a silver platter.

我的意思是，即使在今天的谈话中，如果没有他的父亲腓力二世建立了这支军队并将其交给他，你也不会有亚历山大大帝。

Octavian would never have become emperor without Agrippa.

Octavian would never have become emperor without Agrippa.

So they play central roles sometimes.

所以他们有时扮演核心角色。

But if I had to pick an emperor, I’d probably pick Augustus just because of his influence and because I admire the thing Agrippa didn’t have, his political savvy, his manipulation of image and propaganda.

但如果我必须选择一位皇帝，我可能会选择奥古斯都，因为他的影响力，因为我钦佩阿格里帕所没有的东西，他的政治头脑，他对形象和宣传的操纵。

All that, I find very fascinating.

所有这一切，我觉得非常有趣。

Though I’m not sure he’s a great human being, but he’s a really interesting figure.

Though I’m not sure he’s a great human being, but he’s a really interesting figure.

Whether he’s good or bad, he was extremely influential on defining just the entirety of human history that followed.

Whether he’s good or bad, he was extremely influential on defining just the entirety of human history that followed.

2:49:42 Probably one of the most influential humans ever.

Probably one of the most influential humans ever.

Nevertheless, if you ask in public who the most famous Roman emperor is, would that be Marcus Aurelius potentially?

Nevertheless, if you ask in public who the most famous Roman emperor is, would that be Marcus Aurelius potentially?

I don’t know.

我不知道。

He’s up there.

他在上面。

That’s a good question.

这是一个好问题。

Right?

正确的？

He’s real famous because he was a stoic philosopher and he wrote this book, the Meditations.

He’s real famous because he was a stoic philosopher and he wrote this book, the Meditations.

I mean, it’s interesting.

我的意思是，这很有趣。

2:50:10 Stoicism as a philosophical ideology had a role to play during that time.

Stoicism as a philosophical ideology had a role to play during that time.

I mean, the tragic fact that…

我的意思是，悲惨的事实是……

Did Nero murder Seneca?

尼禄谋杀了塞内卡吗？

Yes.

是的。

Well, he drove him to suicide, let’s say.

好吧，可以说，是他逼他自杀的。

2:50:26 There’s a lot of interesting questions there, but one is the role, especially when it’s hereditary, the role of the mentor, who advises who with the Aristotle and Alexander the Great, that dance of who influences and guides the person as they become and gain power is really interesting.

这里有很多有趣的问题，但其中一个是角色，特别是当它是世袭的时候，导师的角色，谁与亚里士多德和亚历山大大帝一起为谁提供建议，谁影响和指导一个人成为并获得权力，这真的很有趣。

Well, I mean, one of the big questions with the Roman emperors, and we’ve been talking about some of them, is why did so many seem to be either crazy or just sadists?

好吧，我的意思是，罗马皇帝的一个大问题，我们一直在谈论其中的一些皇帝，是为什么这么多人看起来要么是疯子，要么就是虐待狂？

2:50:50 I don’t know that there’s a good answer to that.

I don’t know that there’s a good answer to that.

I mean, people have theories.

我的意思是，人们有理论。

Oh, Caligula got a brain fever and changed after that or something.

Oh, Caligula got a brain fever and changed after that or something.

But I think there’s a lot of maybe truth in the notion that the ones who seem to go craziest quite often are the ones who become emperor at a young age.

但我认为，那些看起来最疯狂的人往往是那些年轻时成为皇帝的人，这一观点可能有很多道理。

And there is something about that old cliche that absolute power corrupts absolutely, especially if your own personality isn’t really fully formed yet.

这句陈词滥调说，绝对的权力绝对会腐败，特别是如果你自己的个性还没有真正完全形成的话。

You know what I’m saying?

你知道我在说什么吗？

I think take anybody when they’re a teenager, if you all of a sudden said, you have unlimited power, what would that do to you?

I think take anybody when they’re a teenager, if you all of a sudden said, you have unlimited power, what would that do to you?

How would that warp your personality?

这会如何扭曲你的个性？

I mean, look at all the…

我的意思是，看看所有...

[inaudible 02:51:40] like the Disney stars who sort of go wrong or something because they get rich and famous at this very young age.

[inaudible 02:51:40] like the Disney stars who sort of go wrong or something because they get rich and famous at this very young age.

Yeah.

是的。

2:51:46 Fame, power, and even money, if you get way too much of it at a young age, I think we’re egotistical, narcissistic, all that kind of stuff as babies.

名誉、权力，甚至金钱，如果你在年轻的时候得到太多，我认为我们在婴儿时期就很自私、自恋，诸如此类。

And then when we clash with the world and we figure out the morality of the world, how to interact with others, that other people suffer in all kinds of ways, understand the cruelty, the beauty of the world, the fact that other people suffer in different ways, the fact that other people are also human and have different perspectives, all of that, in order to develop that, you shouldn’t be blocked off from the world, which power and money And fame can do.

然后，当我们与世界发生冲突时，我们弄清楚世界的道德，如何与他人互动，其他人以各种方式受苦，理解世界的残酷和美丽，其他人以不同的方式受苦的事实，其他人也是人并且有不同的观点的事实，所有这些，为了发展这些，你不应该与世界隔绝，而权力、金钱和名誉可以做到这一点。

And conversely, a lot of the emperors we regard as, quote, “good emperors”, are the ones who become emperor at a middle-aged or something, where their personalities are fully formed, where they’re not going to really become different people.

相反，我们所认为的许多皇帝，引用“好皇帝”，是那些在中年或其他时候成为皇帝的人，他们的性格已经完全形成，他们不会真正成为不同的人。

2:52:25 And so that works in that theory too.

所以这也适用于该理论。

I mean, I don’t think it’s absolute.

我的意思是，我认为这不是绝对的。

And of course, the greatest exception is Octavian Augustus, who starts as rise to power as a teenager.

当然，最大的例外是奥克塔维安·奥古斯都，他在青少年时期就开始掌权。

Somehow doesn’t seem to go nuts.

不知怎的，似乎并没有发疯。

Yeah, history has a lot of-

是的，历史上有很多——

It’s not an absolute, but it doesn’t help to get that much power at a young age, I think.

这不是绝对的，但我认为在年轻时获得那么大的权力并没有帮助。

What does it take to be a successful emperor, would you say?

你认为成为一个成功的皇帝需要什么？

So you say, what does it take to be a good Roman emperor?

So you say, what does it take to be a good Roman emperor?

2:53:01 If you were going to draw up a job description, seeking Roman emperor, what are the qualities and qualifications you would put on it?

If you were going to draw up a job description, seeking Roman emperor, what are the qualities and qualifications you would put on it?

Obviously, you would put responsible, good understanding of military, economics, whatever, ability to delegate.

显然，你会把负责任的、对军事、经济等方面的良好理解以及委派能力放在首位。

But just to be fun, let’s consider how much does it matter whether the emperor is good or bad?

不过为了好玩，我们想一下，皇帝的好坏到底有多重要？

Because in the ancient world, what does it affect really if you’re say a peasant in Spain, if the emperor is crazy Nero or good Vespasian?

因为在古代世界，如果你是西班牙的一个农民，如果皇帝是疯狂的尼禄还是善良的维斯帕芗，这会真正影响什么？

I mean, how does that affect your day-to-day life?

我的意思是，这对你的日常生活有何影响？

How does it affect you if you’re a peasant in Italy?

如果您是意大利的农民，这对您有何影响？

Which is the average inhabitant.

这是平均居民。

I mean, the crazy emperors mostly affect the people within the sound of their voice.

我的意思是，疯狂的皇帝主要是通过他们的声音来影响人民。

So yeah, they go crazy.

So yeah, they go crazy.

They murder senators, they murder members of their own family.

他们谋杀参议员，他们谋杀自己的家人。

They do wacky stuff.

他们做一些古怪的事情。

But a lot of that is constrained to the immediate surroundings around them.

但其中很多都仅限于他们周围的环境。

And meanwhile, the mechanism of the Roman Empire is just grinding along as it would anyway, I mean, the governors are running their provinces, stuff’s happening.

与此同时，罗马帝国的机制正在正常运转，我的意思是，总督们正在管理他们的省份，事情正在发生。

2:54:16 I mean, I guess an emperor can start a war, he can maybe raise taxes, but that would be the ways that he’s affecting the whole empire.

我的意思是，我猜皇帝可以发动战争，他也许可以提高税收，但这就是他影响整个帝国的方式。

And here, we get into technology does matter.

在这里，我们涉足技术确实很重要。

We’re dealing with a world where, let’s say you’re in Rome and you’re the emperor and you want to send a message to a province far away, let’s say Judea, that message might take one or two months to get there and one or two months to get a reply.

我们面对的世界是这样的：假设你在罗马，你是皇帝，你想向一个遥远的省份（比如犹太）发送一条消息，该消息可能需要一两个月才能到达那里，并且需要一两个月才能得到答复。

So how much influence as emperor are you really having over that province?

那么你作为皇帝对那个省份到底有多大的影响力呢？

I mean, those people pretty much have to make their own decisions and then just say to you, “This is what we did.

我的意思是，这些人几乎必须做出自己的决定，然后对你说：“这就是我们所做的。

I hope that’s okay.” Because otherwise, nothing gets done if they’re waiting four months for a decision.

I hope that’s okay.”否则，如果他们等待四个月才做出决定，那么什么也做不了。

Even in the realm of ideas, they can’t get on TV and on the radio and-

即使在思想领域，它们也无法出现在电视和广播中，而且——

Communication-

通讯-

…

……

2:55:06 broadcasts.

广播。

…

……

2:55:07 is so slow and so uncertain in ways that today, with the ability to instantaneously talk to people across the world, we can’t even imagine.

其速度如此缓慢且如此不确定，以至于今天，我们甚至无法想象能够与世界各地的人们即时交谈的能力。

And the Roman Empire is huge.

而且罗马帝国幅员辽阔。

I mean, it is months to send a message and get an answer.

我的意思是，发送消息并得到答复需要几个月的时间。

So here, you have the emperor in Rome, yeah, he affects who’s around him, and he can affect even common people.

所以在这里，罗马的皇帝，是的，他影响他周围的人，他甚至可以影响普通人。

I mean, there’s crazy emperors who are at the games and they’re bored and they say, “We’ll take that whole section of the crowd and throw them to the lions or something.” There, you’re being affected by the emperor, but if you’re outside the range of his sight and voice, do you care who the emperor is-

我的意思是，有一些疯狂的皇帝在观看比赛，他们很无聊，他们说，“我们会把整个人群扔到狮子或其他什么地方。”在那里，你受到了皇帝的影响，但如果你在他的视线和声音范围之外，你在乎皇帝是谁吗——

So the big one-

So the big one-

…

……

2:55:42 most of the time?

most of the time?

That’s a really important idea to remember.

这是一个需要记住的非常重要的想法。

Same with the US president, frankly, in terms of the grand arc of history, what is the actual impact?

和美国总统一样，坦白说，从历史的大弧线来看，实际的影响是什么？

But I would say the big one is probably starting wars, major global wars or ending them in both directions.

但我想说，最重要的可能是发动战争、大规模的全球战争或双向结束战争。

And then taxation too, as you said.

正如你所说，还有税收。

What was the taxation?

What was the taxation?

What was the economic system?

当时的经济制度是怎样的？

What was the role of taxation in the Roman Empire?

税收在罗马帝国的作用是什么？

Romans are really weird with this.

罗马人对此真的很奇怪。

2:56:10 So in the Republic, once they started to acquire overseas provinces, they had to decide, well, what are we going to do with these provinces?

因此，在共和国，一旦他们开始收购海外省份，他们就必须决定，我们要如何处理这些省份？

And they, in the end, settled on this notion of, we’ll put a Roman governor in charge.

他们最终决定，我们将任命一位罗马总督来负责。

We’ll collect some sort of taxes.

我们将征收某种税。

But they often didn’t collect the taxes directly.

但他们通常不直接征税。

Instead, they would sell contracts to private businesses to collect taxes.

相反，他们会将合同出售给私营企业以收税。

2:56:36 So the private businesses would bid and say, “All right, if you give us the contract to collect taxes in Sicily, we’ll give you X number of money up front and then we go out and try to collect enough to make back that money and make ourselves a profit.” And this is a terrible system, because obviously, they’re going to go and try and squeeze as much as they can out of Sicily.

因此，私营企业会出价并说：“好吧，如果你给我们一份在西西里岛征税的合同，我们会预先给你X数量的钱，然后我们出去尝试收集足够的钱来赚回这笔钱并为我们自己创造利润。”这是一个糟糕的系统，因为显然，他们会尽力从西西里岛榨取尽可能多的资源。

And these companies were called publicans, publicani.

这些公司被称为酒吧，publicani。

And in the Bible, there’s a phrase, publicans and sinners, and that should give you an idea how they’re viewed.

圣经里有一个短语，税吏和罪人，这应该能让你了解人们如何看待他们。

So everybody hated these tax collectors, and it was a really kind of dumb system because the publicans were going out and squeezing way more than they should in an unhealthy way from the provinces.

所以每个人都讨厌这些收税员，这确实是一种愚蠢的制度，因为税吏们出去以不健康的方式从各省榨取超出应有的税收。

And the Roman state was doing this kind of weird thing that they should have been doing themselves.

罗马国家正在做这种他们本应该自己做的奇怪的事情。

2:57:25 And over time, that shifts a bit and it becomes more like your standard taxation.

随着时间的推移，这种情况会发生一些变化，变得更像你的标准税收。

And a lot of the taxation ends up being in kind too.

而且很多税收最终也以实物形式存在。

So it’s like, okay, we’re taxing you, you pay it in wheat if you’re a farmer or something, not necessarily in cash.

所以这就好像，好吧，我们正在向你征税，如果你是农民或其他什么人，你就用小麦支付，而不一定用现金。

So in many ways, the Roman economy is underdeveloped.

所以从很多方面来说，罗马经济都是不发达的。

They didn’t have a lot of the sophisticated systems that we have today, and it probably held them back in some ways.

他们没有我们今天拥有的很多复杂的系统，这可能在某些方面阻碍了他们。

And again, they have that resistance to change.

再说一遍，他们对改变有抵触情绪。

The Romans also had weird notions about just business and profit making, that at least originally, there was this notion that’s shameful, again, the only thing that’s a worthwhile profession is farming.

罗马人对于商业和盈利也有奇怪的观念，至少在最初，有这种可耻的观念，再说一次，唯一有价值的职业就是农业。

2:58:09 So rich Romans would get involved in what we would call business manufacturing, particularly long distance trade with ships, but they would often do it through sort of front companies or employees who did it on their behalf, officially, and then they funneled the profits to the guy funding it because they don’t want to be soiled with business, which is beneath them.

富有的罗马人会参与我们所说的商业制造，特别是与船舶的长途贸易，但他们通常会通过某种幌子公司或正式代表他们做这件事的雇员来进行，然后他们将利润转移给资助它的人，因为他们不想被商业所玷污，而这对他们来说是卑鄙的。

So the Romans had a lot of weird attitudes about the economy that I think in some ways didn’t help.

因此，罗马人对经济​​有很多奇怪的态度，我认为这些态度在某些方面没有帮助。

But nevertheless, they had many of the elements of the modern economic system with taxation, the record keeping.

但尽管如此，他们仍然拥有现代经济体系的许多要素，包括税收和记录保存。

They were good at record keeping.

他们擅长记录。

2:58:43 So the Romans…

所以罗马人...

I mean, the census is a Roman word.

我的意思是，人口普查是一个罗马词。

They’re the ones that came up with that.

他们是想出这个办法的人。

And obviously, the laws around everything.

显然，一切事物都有规律。

Yes.

是的。

2:58:51 So in certain ways, yes, they were extremely sophisticated.

所以在某些方面，是的，他们非常复杂。

And of course, the biggest thing about people in the ancient world and today is that they weren’t stupider than us.

当然，古代世界和今天的人们最重要的一点是，他们并不比我们更愚蠢。

I mean, sometimes you get this assumption, oh, well, in the ancient world, they just weren’t as smart or something.

我的意思是，有时你会得到这样的假设，哦，好吧，在古代世界，他们只是没有那么聪明什么的。

No, no, no.

不，不，不。

They were fully as intelligent as we were.

他们完全和我们一样聪明。

They didn’t have access to the same technology as we do, but that doesn’t mean they were any less smart.

他们无法获得与我们相同的技术，但这并不意味着他们不那么聪明。

Can we talk about the Crisis of the Third century and the aforementioned Western and Eastern Roman Empires, how it’s split?

我们能谈谈三世纪的危机和前面提到的东西罗马帝国，它是如何分裂的吗？