格雷厄姆·汉考克：冰河时代的失落文明与远古人类史

The big question for me in that timeline is why didn’t we do it sooner?

对我来说，在这个时间表中最大的问题是我们为什么不早点做呢？

00:00 Why did it take so long?

为什么花了这么长时间？

Why did we wait until after 12,000 years ago, really after 10,000 years ago to start seeing the beginnings of civilization?

为什么我们要等到 12,000 年前，实际上是 10,000 年前才开始看到文明的起源？

The following is a conversation with Graham Hancock, a journalist and author who for over 30 years has explored the controversial possibility that there existed a lost civilization during the last ice age and that it was destroyed in a global cataclysm some 12,000 years ago.

以下是与记者兼作家格雷厄姆·汉考克 (Graham Hancock) 的对话，他 30 多年来一直在探索一种有争议的可能性，即在最后一个冰河世纪期间存在着一个失落的文明，并在大约 12,000 年前的一场全球大灾难中被摧毁。

00:15 He is the presenter of the Netflix documentary series, Ancient Apocalypse, the second season of which has just been released and it’s focused on the distant past of the Americas.

他是 Netflix 纪录片系列《古代启示录》的主持人，该系列纪录片的第二季刚刚发布，主要讲述美洲遥远的过去。

00:46 A topic I recently discussed with the archeologist Ed Barnhart.

我最近与考古学家埃德·巴恩哈特讨论了一个话题。

Let me say that Ed represents the kind of archeologist scholar I love talking to on the podcast, extremely knowledgeable, humble, open minded, and respectful in disagreement.

让我说，埃德代表了我喜欢在播客上与之交谈的那种考古学家学者，他知识渊博、谦逊、思想开放、尊重不同意见。

I’ll do many more podcasts on history, including ancient history.

我会做更多关于历史的播客，包括古代历史。

Our distant past is full of mysteries, and I find it truly exciting to explore those mysteries with people both on the inside and the outside of the mainstream in the various disciplines involved.

我们遥远的过去充满了奥秘，我发现与所涉及的各个学科的主流内部和外部的人们一起探索这些奥秘确实令人兴奋。

This is the Lex Fridman podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

为了支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

And now, dear friends, here’s Graham Hancock.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是格雷厄姆·汉考克。

01:34 Let’s start with a big foundational idea that you have about human history.

让我们从关于人类历史的一个重要的基本想法开始。

That there was an advanced Ice Age civilization that came before and perhaps seeded what people now call the sixth cradles of Civilization, Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, China, Indies, and Mesoamerica.

之前有一个先进的冰河时代文明，也许播下了人们现在所说的第六个文明摇篮：美索不达米亚、埃及、印度、中国、印度群岛和中美洲。

So let’s talk about this idea that you have.

那么让我们谈谈您的这个想法。

Can you at the highest possible level describe it?

您能以尽可能高的水平来描述它吗？

It would be better to describe it as a foundational sense of puzzlement and incompleteness in the story that we are taught about our past, which envisages more or less, there have been a few ups and downs, but more or less a straightforward evolutionary progress.

最好将其描述为我们在过去被教导的故事中的一种基本的困惑和不完整感，它或多或少地设想了一些起起落落，但或多或​​少是一个简单的进化过程。

01:57 We start out as hunter-foragers, then we become agriculturalists.

我们一开始是狩猎采集者，然后成为农业家。

The hunter-forager phase could go back hundreds of thousands of years.

狩猎采集阶段可以追溯到数十万年前。

I mean, this is where it is also important to mention that anatomically modern humans, and we’re not the only humans.

我的意思是，在这里也有必要提及解剖学上的现代人类，而且我们并不是唯一的人类。

We had Neanderthals from, I don’t know, 400,000 years ago to about 40,000 years ago.

我不知道，从 40 万年前到大约 4 万年前，我们就有了尼安德特人。

They were certainly human because anatomically modern humans interbred with them.

他们肯定是人类，因为从解剖学角度来看，现代人类与他们杂交。

And we carry Neanderthal genes.

我们携带尼安德特人基因。

There were the Denisovans maybe 300,000 to perhaps even as recently as 30,000 years ago.

丹尼索瓦人大约有 300,000 人，甚至可能在 30,000 年前就有了。

And again, interbreeding took place.

再次，杂交发生了。

They’re obviously a human species.

他们显然是人类。

So we’ve got this background of humans who didn’t look quite like us.

所以我们得到了这些看起来不太像我们的人类的背景。

03:08 And then we have anatomically modern humans.

然后我们就有了解剖学上的现代人类。

And I think the earliest anatomically modern human skeletal remains are from Jebel Irhoud in Morocco and date to about 310,000 years ago.

我认为最早的解剖学现代人类骨骼遗骸来自摩洛哥的 Jebel Irhoud，可以追溯到大约 31 万年前。

So the question is what were our ancestors doing after that?

那么问题来了，我们的祖先在那之后在做什么呢？

And I think we can include the Neanderthals and the Denisovans in that general picture.

我认为我们可以将尼安德特人和丹尼索瓦人纳入总体图景中。

And why did it take so long?

为什么花了这么长时间？

This is one of the puzzles, one of the questions that bother me.

这是困惑之一，也是困扰我的问题之一。

Why did it take so long?

为什么花了这么长时间？

When we have creatures who are physically identical to us, we cannot actually weigh and measure their brains.

当我们拥有与我们身体相同的生物时，我们实际上无法称重和测量他们的大脑。

But from the work that’s been done on the crania, it looks like they had the same brains that we do with the same wiring.

但从对头盖骨所做的研究来看，它们的大脑与我们的大脑相同，接线也相同。

So if we’ve been around for 300,000 plus years at least, and if ultimately in our future was the process to create civilization or civilizations, why didn’t it happen sooner?

因此，如果我们已经存在了至少 30 万多年，并且如果我们的未来最终将迎来创造一个或多个文明的过程，那为什么不早点发生呢？

04:07 Why did it take so long?

为什么花了这么长时间？

Why was it such a long time?

为什么这么长时间？

Even the story of anatomically modern humans has kept on changing.

即使是解剖学上的现代人类的故事也在不断变化。

I remember a time when it was said that there hadn’t been anatomically modern humans before 50,000 years ago, and then it became 196,000 years ago with the findings in Ethiopia and then 310,000 years ago.

我记得曾经有人说，5万年前之前没有解剖学上的现代人类，后来埃塞俄比亚的发现变成了196,000年前，然后又变成了310,000年前。

There’s a lot of missing pieces in the puzzle there.

这个谜题中有很多缺失的部分。

But the big question for me in that timeline is why didn’t we do it sooner?

但对我来说，在这个时间表中最大的问题是我们为什么不早点做呢？

Why did it take so long?

为什么花了这么长时间？

Why did we wait until after 12,000 years ago, really after 10,000 years ago to start seeing what are selected as the beginnings of civilization in places like Turkey, for example.

为什么我们要等到 12,000 年前，实际上是 10,000 年前才开始看到像土耳其这样的地方被选为文明的开端。

And then there’s a relatively slow process of adopting agriculture.

然后，采用农业的过程相对缓慢。

And by 6,000 years ago, we see ancient Sumer emerging as a civilization.

到 6000 年前，我们看到古代苏美尔文明逐渐崛起。

And we’re then in the pre-dynastic period in ancient Egypt as well 6,000 years ago, beginning to see definite signs of what will become the dynastic civilization of Egypt about 5,000 years ago.

我们现在也处于 6000 年前古埃及的前王朝时期，开始看到大约 5000 年前埃及王朝文明的明确迹象。

05:21 And interestingly round about the same time, you have the Indus Valley civilization popping up out of nowhere.

有趣的是，大约在同一时间，印度河流域文明突然出现。

And by the way, the Indus Valley civilization was a lost civilization until the 1920s when railway workers accidentally stumbled across some ruins.

顺便说一句，印度河谷文明一直是失落的文明，直到 1920 年代铁路工人无意中发现了一些废墟。

I’ve been to Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro, and these are extraordinarily beautifully centrally planned cities.

我去过哈拉帕和摩亨佐-达罗，这些都是非常美丽的中央规划城市。

Clearly they’re the work of an already sophisticated civilization.

显然，它们是一个已经很复杂的文明的杰作。

One of the things that strikes me about the Indus Valley Civilization is that we find a steatite seal of an individual seated in a recognizable yoga posture.

关于印度河流域文明，令我印象深刻的一件事是，我们发现了一个滑石印章，上面有一个人以可识别的瑜伽姿势坐着。

And that seal is 5,000 years old, and the yoga posture is Mulabandhasana, which involves a real contortion of the ankles and twisting the feet back.

那个海豹已经有 5000 年的历史了，瑜伽姿势是 Mulabandhasana，它涉及脚踝的真正扭曲和脚向后扭转。

It’s an advanced yoga posture.

这是一种高级瑜伽姿势。

So there it is, 5,000 years ago.

5000 年前就这样了。

And that then raises the question, well, how long did yoga take to get to that place when it was already so advanced 5,000 years ago?

这就提出了一个问题，那么，当瑜伽在 5000 年前就已经如此先进时，它需要多长时间才能到达那个地方？

06:24 What’s the background to this?

这有什么背景呢？

China, the Yellow River Civilization again, it’s around about the same period, five to 6,000 years ago.

中国又是黄河文明，大约是在同一时期，距今五六千年前。

You get these first signs of something happening.

您会得到某些事情发生的最初迹象。

So it’s very odd that all around the world we have this sudden upsurge of civilization about 6,000 years ago, preceded by what seems like a natural evolutionary process that would lead to a civilization.

因此，很奇怪的是，大约 6000 年前，世界各地突然出现了文明的繁荣，在此之前似乎是一个自然的进化过程，最终形成了文明。

And yet certain ideas being carried down and manifested and expressed in many of these different civilizations.

然而，某些思想在许多不同的文明中得到传承、体现和表达。

I just find that that whole idea very puzzling and very disturbing, especially when I look at this radical break that takes place in not just the human story, but the story of all life on Earth, which was the last great cataclysm that the Earth went through, which was the Younger Dryas event.

我只是发现整个想法非常令人费解和令人不安，特别是当我看到这种根本性的突破不仅发生在人类的故事中，而且发生在地球上所有生命的故事中，这是地球经历的最后一次大灾难，即新仙女木事件。

It was an extinction level event.

这是一次灭绝级别的事件。

That’s when all the great megafauna of the Ice Age went extinct.

就在那时，冰河时代所有的巨型动物都灭绝了。

07:28 It’s after that.

是在那之后。

It’s after event that we start seeing this what had taken to be the beginnings of the first gradual steps towards civilization, we come out of the upper Paleolithic as it’s defined the end of the old Stone Age and into the Neolithic.

在事件发生之后，我们开始看到这被认为是迈向文明的第一步的开始，我们走出了旧石器时代晚期，因为它定义了旧石器时代的结束，进入新石器时代。

And that’s when the wheels are supposedly set in motion to start civilization rolling.

据说，那时轮子就开始转动，文明开始滚动。

But what happened before that and why did that suddenly happen then?

但之前发生了什么，为什么后来突然发生这样的事情呢？

And I can’t help feeling, and I’ve felt this for a very long while, that there are major missing pieces in our story.

我不禁感觉到，而且我已经感觉到这一点很长一段时间了，我们的故事中存在着重大的缺失。

It’s often said that I’m claiming to have proved that there was an advanced lost civilization in the Ice Age.

人们常说我声称已经证明了冰河时代存在着一个先进的失落文明。

And I am not claiming to have proved that.

我并不是声称已经证明了这一点。

That is a hypothesis that I’m putting forward to answer some of the questions that I have about prehistory.

这是我提出的一个假设，是为了回答我对史前史的一些问题。

And I think it’s worthwhile to inquire into those possibilities because the Younger Dryas event was a massive global cataclysm, whatever caused it.

我认为探讨这些可能性是值得的，因为新仙女木事件是一场大规模的全球灾难，无论它是什么原因造成的。

08:32 And it’s strange that just after it we start seeing these first signs.

奇怪的是，就在它之后我们开始看到这些最初的迹象。

So the current understanding in mainstream archeology is that after the Younger Dryas is when the civilizations popped up in different places of the globe with a lot of similarities, but they popped up independently.

所以目前主流考古学的理解是，新仙女木期之后，全球不同地方出现了很多相似的文明，但它们是独立出现的。

Independently.

独立。

08:54 And by coincidence.

而且是巧合。

And by coincidence, those big civilizations that we all remember as the first civilizations, Sumer, Egypt, the Indus Valley Civilization, China, they all pop up at pretty much the same time.

巧合的是，那些我们都记得的最早的文明，苏美尔文明、埃及文明、印度河文明、中国文明，几乎都是在同一时间出现的。

That is the mainstream view.

这是主流观点。

And they don’t just pop up, they kind of build up gradually.

它们不是突然出现的，而是逐渐积累起来的。

09:10 First there’s some settlements.

首先有一些定居点。

Oh, definitely, yes.

哦，当然，是的。

And then there’s different dynamics of how they build up and the role of agriculture.

然后它们的形成方式和农业的作用也有不同的动态。

09:16 And that is also non-obvious, but it’s just there’s first a kind of settlement, a stabilization of where the people are living.

这也是不明显的，但这只是首先有一种解决办法，人们居住地的稳定。

Then they start using agriculture, then they start getting urban centers and that kind of stuff.

然后他们开始利用农业，然后他们开始建立城市中心之类的东西。

It seems like an entirely reasonable argument.

这似乎是一个完全合理的论点。

09:33 Everything about that makes sense.

一切都是有道理的。

There is no doubt that you’re seeing evolutionary progress, social evolution taking place in those thousands of years before Sumer emerges.

毫无疑问，你看到了进化的进步，社会的进化发生在苏美尔出现之前的几千年里。

But what’s happening now, really, I spent much of the nineties and the late 1980s investigating this issue of a lost civilization.

但现在发生的事情，实际上，我花了九十年代和 80 年代末的大部分时间来调查这个失落文明的问题。

I wrote a series of books about it.

我写了一系列关于它的书。

But by 2002 when I published a book called Underworld, which was the most massive and most heavy book that I’ve ever written, because I was writing very defensively at the time.

但到了 2002 年，我出版了一本名为《地下世界》的书，这是我写过的最厚重、最沉重的书，因为当时我写得非常防御性。

By the time I finished that book, my wife Santha and I spent seven years scuba diving all around the world looking for structures underwater, often led by local fishermen or local divers to anomalies that they’d seen underwater.

当我完成那本书时，我和妻子桑莎花了七年的时间在世界各地进行水肺潜水，寻找水下结构，通常由当地渔民或当地潜水员带领去寻找他们在水下看到的异常现象。

By the time that book was finished, I thought, actually, I’ve done this story.

当那本书完成时，我想，实际上，我已经完成了这个故事。

I’ve walked the walk.

我已经走了。

10:26 I really don’t have much more to say about it.

对此我真的没什么可说的。

And I turned in another direction and I wrote a book called Supernatural Meetings With the Ancient Teachers of Mankind recently retitled Visionary.

我转向另一个方向，写了一本名为《与人类古代教师的超自然会议》的书，最近更名为《Visionary》。

And that was about the role of fundamentally about the role of psychedelics in the evolution of human culture.

这从根本上讲是关于致幻剂在人类文化进化中的作用。

And I didn’t think that I would go back to the lost civilization issue, but Göbekli Tepe in Turkey kept on forcing itself upon me the more and more discoveries there, the 11,600 year date from Enclosure D, which is the two largest megalithic pillars.

我没想到我会回到失落文明的问题上，但土耳其的哥贝克力石阵不断强迫我在那里有越来越多的发现，从 D 区（两个最大的巨石柱）算起已有 11,600 年的历史。

And I reached a point where I realized I have to get back in the water and I have to investigate this again.

我意识到我必须回到水中，我必须再次调查此事。

And Göbekli Tepe was a game changer, but I think it’s a game changer for everything because Göbekli Tepe, the extraordinary nature of it.

哥贝克力石阵改变了游戏规则，但我认为它改变了一切，因为哥贝克力石阵具有非凡的本质。

We are looking at a major megalithic site, which is at least five and a half thousand years older than Ġgantija in Malta, which was previously considered to be the oldest megalithic site in the world.

我们正在寻找一个主要的巨石遗址，它比马耳他的Ġgantija至少早五千年前，后者以前被认为是世界上最古老的巨石遗址。

11:32 And this led of course to a huge amount of interest and attention, both from the Turkish government who see the potential tourism potential of having the world’s oldest megalithic site and from archeologists.

这当然引起了土耳其政府和考古学家的巨大兴趣和关注，土耳其政府看到了世界上最古老的巨石遗址的潜在旅游潜力。

And this in turn has led to exploration and excavation throughout the region.

这反过来又引发了整个地区的勘探和挖掘。

And what they’re finding throughout that whole region around Göbekli Tepe and going down into Syria and further down into the Jordan Valley as far as Jericho and even across a bit of the Mediterranean into Cyprus, is what Turkish archeologists are now calling the Taş Tepeler civilization.

他们在哥贝克力石阵周围的整个地区，一直到叙利亚，再深入约旦河谷，最远到达杰里科，甚至穿过地中海进入塞浦路斯，所发现的就是土耳其考古学家现在所说的塔斯泰佩勒文明。

They’re calling it a civilization, the Stone Hills Civilization with very definite identifying characteristics, semi-subterranean circular structures, the use of T-shaped megalithic pillars, sometimes not anywhere near as big as those at Göbekli Tepe.

他们称其为一种文明，石山文明，具有非常明确的识别特征，半地下圆形结构，使用 T 形巨石柱，有时远没有哥贝克力石阵那么大。

It’s clear that Göbekli Tepe now was not the beginning of this process.

很明显，哥贝克力石阵现在并不是这一过程的开始。

It was actually in a way, the end of this process.

在某种程度上，这实际上是这个过程的结束。

12:33 It was the summation of everything that Stone Hills Civilization had achieved.

这是石山文明所取得的一切成就的总和。

But what is becoming clear is that this is a period between before the foundation of Göbekli Tepe, as far as we know, that date of 11,600 years ago is the oldest date for Göbekli Tepe.

但越来越清楚的是，这是哥贝克力石阵建立之前的一段时期，据我们所知，11,600年前的日期是哥贝克力石阵最古老的日期。

But of course there’s a lot of Göbekli Tepe still underground, so we can’t say for sure that that’s the oldest, but it’s the oldest so far excavated.

当然，还有很多哥贝克力石阵仍在地下，所以我们不能肯定地说这是最古老的，但它是迄今为止发掘的最古老的。

What we’re seeing is that in that whole region around there, there was something was in motion and it began to go into motion round about the beginning of the Younger Dryas.

我们看到的是，在周围的整个地区，有某种东西在运动，并且它在新仙女木期开始时开始运动。

And this is where these two dates are really important.

这就是这两个日期真正重要的地方。

The Younger Dryas, I’ll round the figures off, begins around 12,800 years ago, and it ends around 11,600 years ago.

新仙女木期，我将数字四舍五入，开始于大约 12,800 年前，结束于大约 11,600 年前。

13:24 So Göbekli Tepe’s construction date, if it is 11,600 years ago, if they don’t find older materials, marks the end of the Younger Dryas, but the beginning of the Younger Dryas, we are already seeing the stirrings of the kind of culture that manifests in full form at Göbekli Tepe and after the construction of Göbekli Tepe, in fact, even during the construction of Göbekli Tepe, we see agriculture beginning to be adopted.

因此，哥贝克力石阵的建造日期，如果是11,600年前，如果他们没有找到更古老的材料，则标志着新仙女木期的结束，但是新仙女木期的开始，我们已经看到了在哥贝克力石阵中充分体现的那种文化的搅动，事实上，即使在哥贝克力石阵的建造过程中，我们也看到农业开始了通过了。

The people who created Göbekli Tepe were all hunter-foragers at the beginning.

创建哥贝克力石阵的人们一开始都是狩猎采集者。

But by the time Göbekli Tepe was finished, and it was definitely deliberately finished, closed off, closed down, deliberately buried, covered with earth, covered with rubble, and then topped off with a hill, which is why Göbekli Tepe is called what it is, Göbekli Tepe means pot-bellied hill or the hill of the navel.

但是到了哥贝克力石碑建成的时候，肯定是故意完工的，封闭，封闭，故意掩埋，盖土，盖上瓦砾，然后盖上一座小山，这就是哥贝克力石碑被称为的原因，哥贝克力石碑的意思是大腹便便的山丘或者肚脐的小山丘。

For a long time, Göbekli Tepe was thought to be just a hill that looked a bit like a pot belly.

长期以来，哥贝克力石阵都被认为只是一座看起来有点像大肚皮的小山。

You say how it was discovered, I think this is one of the most fascinating things on Earth, period.

你说它是如何被发现的，我认为这是地球上最迷人的事情之一。

14:29 So maybe can you say what it is and how it was discovered?

那么也许你能说说它是什么以及它是如何被发现的吗？

Well, Göbekli Tepe is first of all the oldest fully elaborated megalithic site that we know of anywhere in the world.

首先，哥贝克力石阵是我们所知道的世界上最古老的、精心制作的巨石遗址。

14:37 It doesn’t mean that older ones won’t be found, but it is the oldest so far found.

这并不意味着不会发现更古老的，但它是迄今为止发现的最古老的。

The part of the site that’s been excavated, which is a tiny percentage of the whole site.

遗址中已被挖掘的部分，仅占整个遗址的一小部分。

We do know.

我们确实知道。

My first visit to Göbekli Tepe was in 2013, and Dr. Klaus Schmidt, the late Dr. Klaus Schmidt, who died a year later, was very generous to me and showed me around the site for over a period of three days.

我第一次参观哥贝克力石阵是在2013年，一年后去世的已故克劳斯·施密特博士对我非常慷慨，带我参观了现场三天多的时间。

And he explained to me that they’ve already used ground penetrating radar on the site, and they know that there’s much more Göbekli Tepe still underground.

他向我解释说，他们已经在现场使用了探地雷达，而且他们知道地下还有更多的哥贝克力石阵。

So anything is possible in terms of the dating of Göbekli Tepe.

因此，就哥贝克力石阵的年代测定而言，一切皆有可能。

But what we have at the moment is a series of almost circular, but not quite circular enclosures, which are walled with relatively small stones.

但我们现在拥有的是一系列几乎圆形但又不完全圆形的围墙，它们的围墙是相对较小的石头。

15:34 And then inside them you have pairs of megalithic pillars.

然后在它们里面有成对的巨石柱子。

And the archetypal part of that site is Enclosure D, which contains the two largest upright megaliths, about 18 feet tall and reckoned to weigh somewhere in the range of 20 tons, if I have my memory correct, they’re substantial hefty pieces of stone.

该遗址的原型部分是 D 区，其中包含两块最大的直立巨石，约 18 英尺高，估计重约 20 吨，如果我没记错的话，它们是巨大的石块。

It isn’t some kind of extraordinary feat to create a 20 foot tall or 20 ton megalith, nor is it an extraordinary feat to move it.

创造一块 20 英尺高或 20 吨重的巨石并不是什么非凡的壮举，移动它也不是什么非凡的壮举。

There’s nothing magical or really weird about that.

这没有什么神奇或真正奇怪的。

Human beings can do that and always have, besides the quarry for the megaliths is right there.

人类可以做到这一点，而且一直都能做到，而且巨石的采石场就在那里。

It’s within 200 meters of the main enclosures.

它距离主围场不到 200 米。

So that’s not a mystery, but the mystery is, the mystery is why suddenly this new form of architecture, this massive, massive megalithic pillars appear, and the pillars, one of the things that interests me about the pillars is their alignment.

所以这不是一个谜，但谜的是，谜的是为什么突然出现这种新的建筑形式，这种巨大的巨石柱子，而这些柱子，我对柱子感兴趣的事情之一就是它们的排列。

16:36 And there is good work that’s been done, which suggests that Enclosure D aligns to the rising of the star Sirius.

并且已经完成了很多出色的工作，这表明 Enclosure D 与天狼星的升起一致。

And the rising points of the star Sirius appear to be mapped by the other enclosures, which are all oriented in slightly different directions.

天狼星的升起点似乎是由其他外壳绘制的，这些外壳的方向都略有不同。

It was the work entirely of hunter-foragers.

这完全是狩猎采集者的工作。

But by the time Göbekli Tepe was completed, agriculture was being introduced and was taking place there.

但当哥贝克力石阵建成时，农业已经被引进并在那里进行。

Now you asked how Göbekli Tepe was found.

现在你问哥贝克力石阵是如何被发现的。

The answer to that is that there was a survey of that pot-bellied hill in the 1960s by some American archeologists, and they were looking absolutely looking for Stone Age material, for material from the Paleolithic.

答案是，一些美国考古学家在 20 世纪 60 年代对这座大腹便便的山进行了一次调查，他们绝对是在寻找石器时代的材料，寻找旧石器时代的材料。

And they had found some Paleolithic flints, upper Paleolithic flints around there.

他们在那里发现了一些旧石器时代的燧石，旧石器时代晚期的燧石。

So it looked like a good place to look.

所以它看起来是一个值得一看的好地方。

But then they noticed sticking out of the side of the hill, some very finely cut stone, bits of very large and very finely cut stone.

但随后他们注意到山坡上伸出了一些非常精细切割的石头，一些非常大且非常精细切割的石头。

17:38 And looking at that, the workmanship was so good that those archeologists were confident that it had nothing to do with the Stone Age, and they thought they were looking at perhaps some Byzantine remains, and they abandoned the site and never looked at it further.

看着它，做工如此之好，以至于那些考古学家确信它与石器时代无关，他们认为他们看到的可能是一些拜占庭遗迹，所以他们放弃了这个地点，再也没有进一步观察过。

And it wasn’t until the German Archaeological Institute got involved, and particularly Klaus Schmidt, who I think was a genius, had real insight into this and started to dig at Göbekli Tepe that they’d realized what they’d found, that they’d found potentially the oldest megalithic site in the world.

直到德国考古研究所介入，特别是克劳斯·施密特（我认为他是个天才）对此有了真正的洞察力并开始在哥贝克力石阵挖掘时，他们才意识到他们的发现，他们发现了可能是世界上最古老的巨石遗址。

And they’d found it at a place where agriculture, according to the established historical timeline, that’s where agriculture, at any rate in Europe and Western Asia begins.

他们在一个农业的地方发现了它，根据既定的历史时间表，那是农业的发源地，至少在欧洲和西亚是这样。

It begins in Anatolia, in Turkey, and then it gradually disseminates westward from there.

它始于土耳其的安纳托利亚，然后逐渐从那里向西传播。

And yet the understanding is it was created by hunter-gatherers.

然而人们的理解是它是由狩猎采集者创造的。

It was created by hunter-gatherers.

它是由狩猎采集者创造的。

18:31 Yeah, there was no agriculture 11,600 years ago in Göbekli Tepe.

是的，11,600 年前哥贝克力石阵还没有农业。

But by the time Göbekli Tepe was decommissioned, and I use that word deliberately, was closed down and buried.

但当哥贝克力石阵退役时（我故意用这个词），它被关闭并掩埋了。

Agriculture was all around it.

农业无处不在。

And this was agriculture of people who knew how to cultivate plants.

这就是懂得如何种植植物的人们的农业。

Do we have an understanding when it was turned into a, if I could say a time capsule so protected by forming a mound around it?

当它变成一个，如果我可以说是一个时间胶囊，通过在它周围形成一个土堆来保护它时，我们是否有理解？

Yes.

是的。

Is it around that similar time?

也是差不多那个时间吗？

It stood from roughly 11,600 years ago to about 10,400 years ago to about 8,400 BC.

它的年代大约为公元前 11,600 年前至约 10,400 年前至公元前 8,400 年。

19:05 So around 1200 years it was there, and it continued to be elaborated as a site.

所以它在那里存在了大约 1200 年，并且作为一个遗址不断被精心设计。

And while it was being elaborated as a site, we see agriculture, I’m going to use the word being introduced, there’d been no sign of it before, and suddenly it’s there.

当它被精心设计为一个网站时，我们看到了农业，我将使用正在引入的这个词，以前没有任何迹象，突然它就在那里。

And to me, that’s another of the mysteries about Göbekli Tepe.

对我来说，这是哥贝克力石阵的另一个谜团。

And then with the new work that’s being done, we realize that it’s part of a much wider phenomenon which spreads across an enormous distance.

然后，随着正在进行的新工作，我们意识到这是一个更广泛的现象的一部分，这种现象跨越了很长的距离。

And the puzzling thing is that after Göbekli Tepe there almost seems to be a decline.

令人费解的是，哥贝克力石阵之后几乎出现了衰落。

Things fall down again, and then we enter this long, slow process of the Neolithic, thousands of years, gradual developments until we come to ancient Sumer and Mesopotamia.

事情又往下掉，然后我们进入新石器时代这个漫长、缓慢的过程，几千年，逐渐发展，直到我们来到古苏美尔和美索不达米亚。

20:02 But agriculture has taken a firm root by then.

但那时农业已经扎下了坚实的根基。

Actually, one other thing, I’ll just say this in passing.

其实还有一件事，我就顺便说一下。

When I talk about a lost civilization introducing ideas to people, I’m often accused of stealing credit from the indigenous people who had those ideas in the first place.

当我谈论失落的文明向人们介绍思想时，我经常被指责窃取了最初拥有这些思想的土著人民的信用。

So I do find it slightly hypocritical that archeology fully accepts that the idea of agriculture was introduced to Western Europe from Turkey, and that Western Europeans didn’t invent agriculture.

所以我确实觉得考古学完全接受农业思想是从土耳其传入西欧，而西欧人没有发明农业的说法有点虚伪。

It was absolutely introduced by Anatolian farmers who traveled west.

它绝对是由向西旅行的安纳托利亚农民引入的。

So the notion of dissemination of ideas perhaps shouldn’t be so annoying to archeologists as it is.

因此，思想传播的概念也许不应该让考古学家如此烦恼。

And perhaps we should also state, if we look at the entirety of history of hominids, humans or hominids have been explorers.

也许我们还应该指出，如果我们纵观原始人类的整个历史，人类或原始人类一直是探险家。

20:43 I didn’t even know this when I was preparing for this.

当我准备这个的时候我什至不知道这一点。

Looking at Homo erectus 1.

看看直立人1。

9 million years ago.

900万年前。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Almost right away they spread out through the whole world and we, Homo sapiens evolved from them.

他们几乎立刻就传播到了整个世界，而我们智人就是从他们进化而来的。

21:01 And we should also mention, since we’re talking about controversial debates going on, as I understand there’s still debates about the dynamics of all that was going on there.

我们还应该提到，因为我们正在谈论正在进行的有争议的辩论，据我所知，仍然存在关于那里正在发生的所有动态的辩论。

Like we mentioned in Africa that I think the current understanding, we didn’t come from one particular point of Africa, that there’s multiple locations.

就像我们在非洲提到的那样，我认为目前的理解是，我们并不是来自非洲的一个特定地点，而是有多个地点。

This is the Out of Africa theory.

这就是“走出非洲”理论。

21:29 I think it’s more than a theory.

我认为这不仅仅是一个理论。

It’s really strongly evidenced.

这确实是有充分证据的。

Why?

为什么？

Because we’re part of the Great Ape family and it’s an African family.

因为我们是类人猿家族的一部分，而且是一个非洲家族。

21:39 There’s no doubt that human beings, our deep origins are in Africa.

毫无疑问，人类的深层起源是在非洲。

But then as you rightly say, there were these very early migrations out of Africa by species that are likely ancestral to anatomically modern humans, including definitely Homo erectus and the astonishingly distant travels that they undertook.

但正如你所说，这些非常早期的物种从非洲迁徙出来，这些物种很可能是解剖学上现代人类的祖先，其中绝对包括直立人以及他们进行的令人惊讶的遥远旅行。

Yes, I think there is an urge to explore in all of humanity.

是的，我认为全人类都有探索的冲动。

I think there is an urge to find out what’s around the next corner, what’s over the brow of the next hill.

我认为人们有一种冲动想要找出下一个拐角处有什么，下一座山的山顶上有什么。

And I think that goes very deep into human character.

我认为这深深地影响了人类的性格。

And I think it was being manifested in those early adventures of people who left Africa and traveled all around the world and then settling in different parts of the world.

我认为这体现在那些离开非洲、周游世界、然后在世界不同地方定居的人们的早期冒险经历中。

I think a lot of anatomically modern human evolution took place outside Africa as well, not only in Africa.

我认为许多解剖学上的现代人类进化也发生在非洲以外的地方，而不仅仅是在非洲。

So I guess the general puzzlement that you’re filled with is given that these creatures explore and spread and try out different environments, why did it take hundreds of thousands of years for them to develop complicated society settlements?

所以我想你普遍感到困惑的是，这些生物探索、传播、尝试不同的环境，为什么它们需要数十万年的时间才能发展出复杂的社会聚落？

That’s the first big question.

这是第一个大问题。

22:51 Why did it take so long?

为什么花了这么长时间？

And that raises in my mind a hypothesis, a possibility.

这在我的脑海中提出了一个假设，一种可能性。

Maybe it didn’t take so long.

也许并没有花那么长时间。

Maybe things were happening that we haven’t yet got hold of in the archeological record, which await to be discovered.

也许正在发生的事情是我们在考古记录中尚未掌握的，有待发现。

And of course, there are huge parts of the world that have not been studied at all by archeology, but the fact that huge parts of the world have not been studied at all by archeology is not on its own enough to suggest that we’re missing a chapter in the human story.

当然，世界上有很大一部分地区根本没有经过考古学研究，但世界上很大一部分地区根本没有经过考古学研究，这一事实本身并不足以表明我们错过了人类故事中的一个章节。

The reason that I come to that isn’t only puzzlement about that 300,000 year gap.

我之所以这么想，不仅仅是因为对三十万年的差距感到困惑。

It’s also to do with the fact that there’s common iconography.

这也与存在共同的图像有关。

There’s common myths and traditions, and there’s common spiritual ideas that are found all around the world, and they’re found amongst cultures that are geographically distant from one another and that are also distant from one another in time.

世界各地都有共同的神话和传统，也有共同的精神理念，它们存在于地理上彼此遥远、时间上也彼此遥远的文化中。

23:53 They don’t necessarily occur at the same time.

它们不一定同时发生。

And this is where I think that archeology is perhaps desperately needing a history of ideas as well as just a history of things.

这就是我认为考古学可能迫切需要思想史以及事物史的地方。

Because an idea can manifest again and again throughout the human story.

因为一个想法可以在整个人类故事中一次又一次地显现。

So there are particular issues, for example, the notion of the afterlife, destiny of the soul, what happens to us when we die?

所以有一些特殊的问题，例如来世的概念，灵魂的命运，我们死后会发生什么？

And believe me, when you reach my age, that’s something you do think about what happens.

相信我，当你到了我这个年纪，你确实会考虑会发生什么。

I used to feel immortal when I was in my forties, but now that I’m 74, I definitely know that I’m not.

我四十多岁的时候曾经觉得自己是不朽的，但现在我已经74岁了，我肯定知道我不是。

Well, it would be natural for human beings all around the world to have that same feeling, that same idea.

嗯，世界各地的人类都有同样的感觉、同样的想法是很自然的。

But why would they all decide that what happens to the soul after death is that it makes a leap to the heavens, to the Milky Way, that it makes a journey along the Milky Way, that there it is confronted by challenges, by monsters, by closed gates.

但为什么他们都认为灵魂死后发生的事情是它跳跃到天堂，到银河系，它沿着银河系旅行，在那里它面临挑战，怪物，关闭的大门。

24:54 The course of the life that that person has lived will determine their destiny in that afterlife journey.

这个人一生的轨迹将决定他在来世旅程中的命运。

And this idea, the path of souls, the Milky Way is called the path of souls.

而这个想法，灵魂之路，银河系就叫做灵魂之路。

It’s very strongly found in the Americas right from South America through Mexico, through into North America.

从南美洲到墨西哥，再到北美洲，它在美洲的分布非常广泛。

But it’s also found in ancient Egypt, in ancient India, in ancient Mesopotamia, the same idea.

但在古埃及、古印度、古美索不达米亚也发现了同样的想法。

And I don’t feel that that can be a coincidence.

我不认为这可能是巧合。

I feel that what we are looking at is an inheritance of an idea, a legacy that’s been passed down from a remote common source to cultures all around the world, and that has taken on a life of its own within those cultures.

我觉得我们所看到的是一种思想的继承，一种从遥远的共同来源传承到世界各地文化的遗产，并且在这些文化中拥有了自己的生命。

So the remote common source would explain both the similarities and the differences in the expression of these ideas.

因此，遥远的共同来源可以解释这些想法表达的相似性和差异。

The other thing, very puzzling thing, is the sequence of numbers that are a result of the precession of the equinoxes.

另一件事，非常令人费解的是，由分点岁差产生的数字序列。

25:54 At least I think that’s the best theory to explain them.

至少我认为这是解释它们的最佳理论。

Here, I think it’s important to pay tribute to the work of Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend.

在这里，我认为有必要向 Giorgio de Santillana 和 Hertha von Dechend 的工作致敬。

Giorgio de Santillana was professor of history of science actually at MIT, where you are based, back in the sixties.

早在六十年代，乔治·德·桑蒂拉纳（Giorgio de Santillana）就是你所在的麻省理工学院的科学史教授。

And Hertha von Dechend was professor of the history of science at Frankfurt University, and they wrote an immense book in the 1960s called Hamlet’s Mill, and Hamlet’s Mill differs very strongly from established opinion on the issue of the phenomenon of precession.

Hertha von Dechend 是法兰克福大学的科学史教授，他们在 20 世纪 60 年代写了一本巨著，名为《哈姆雷特的磨坊》，而《哈姆雷特的磨坊》与岁差现象问题上的既定观点有很大不同。

And I’ll explain what precession is in a moment.

我稍后会解释什么是进动。

Generally, it’s held that it was the Greeks who discovered the precession and the dating on that is put back not very far, maybe 2,300 years ago or so.

一般来说，人们认为是希腊人发现了岁差，而岁差的年代可以追溯到不远的地方，也许是2300年前左右。

Santillana and von Dechend are pointing out that knowledge of precession is much, much older than that, thousands of years older than that.

桑蒂拉纳和冯·德琴德指出，岁差的知识比这要古老得多，几千年。

26:58 And they do actually trace it.

他们确实追踪了它。

I think I’m quoting them pretty much correctly to some almost unbelievable ancestor civilization.

我想我对一些几乎令人难以置信的祖先文明的引用非常正确。

Reading that book was one of the several reasons that I got into this mystery in the first place.

读那本书是我最初陷入这个谜团的几个原因之一。

Okay, now, the precession of the equinoxes, to give it its full name, results from the fact that our planet is the viewing platform from which we observe the stars.

好吧，现在，分点进动（给它它的全名）是由于我们的星球是我们观察星星的观察平台这一事实造成的。

And our planet, of course, is rotating on its own axis at roughly a thousand miles an hour at the equator.

当然，我们的星球在赤道上以每小时大约一千英里的速度绕自己的轴旋转。

But what’s less obvious is that it’s also wobbling on its axis.

但不太明显的是它也在其轴上摆动。

So if you imagine the extended North Pole of the earth pointing up at the sky in our time, it’s pointing at the star Polaris, and that is our pole star.

因此，如果你想象地球延伸的北极指向我们这个时代的天空，它就指向北极星，那就是我们的北极星。

But Polaris has not always been the pole star precisely because of this wobble on the axis of the Earth.

但正是由于地轴的这种摆动，北极星并不总是北极星。

27:52 Other stars have occupied the pole position, and sometimes the extended North Pole of the earth points at empty space.

其他恒星已经占据了极点位置，有时地球延伸的北极指向空旷的太空。

There is no pole star.

没有北极星。

That’s one of the obvious results of the wobble on the Earth’s axis.

这是地轴摆动的明显结果之一。

The other one is that there are 12 well-known constellations in our time, the 12 constellations of the zodiac that lie along what is referred to as the path of the sun.

另一个是我们这个时代有12个著名的星座，黄道带上的12个星座位于所谓的太阳路径上。

The earth is orbiting the sun, and we are seeing what’s behind it, what’s in direct line with the sun in our view.

地球绕太阳运行，我们正在看到它后面的东西，以及我们视野中与太阳成直线的东西。

And the zodiacal constellations all lie along the path of the sun.

黄道星座都位于太阳的运行路径上。

So at different times of the year, the sun will rise against the background of a particular zodiacal constellation.

因此，在一年中的不同时间，太阳会在特定黄道星座的背景下升起。

Today we live in the age of Pisces, and it’s definitely not an accident that the early Christians used the fish as their symbol.

今天我们生活在双鱼座时代，早期基督徒使用鱼作为他们的象征绝对不是偶然的。

This is another area where I differ from archeology.

这是我与考古学不同的另一个领域。

28:46 Think the constellations of the zodiac were recognized as such much earlier than we suppose.

认为黄道十二宫的星座被认识的时间比我们想象的要早得多。

Anyway, to get to the point, the key marker of the year, certainly in the northern hemisphere, was the spring equinox.

不管怎样，为了切入主题，一年中的关键标志，尤其是在北半球，是春分。

The question was, what constellation is rising behind the sun?

问题是，太阳后面升起的是什么星座？

What constellation is housing the sun at dawn on the spring equinox?

春分黎明时太阳在哪个星座？

Right now it’s Pisces.

现在是双鱼座。

In another 150 years or so, it’ll be Aquarius.

再过 150 年左右，就会是水瓶座。

We do live in the dawning of the age of Aquarius.

我们确实生活在水瓶座时代的初期。

Back in the time of the late ancient Egyptians, it was Aries going back to the time of Ramesses or before.

回到古埃及晚期的时代，白羊座回到拉美西斯时代或更早的时代。

Before that it was Taurus and so on and so forth.

在此之前是金牛座等等。

It’s backwards through the zodiac until 12,500 years ago.

沿着黄道带向后追溯，直到 12,500 年前。

You come to the age of Leo when the constellation of Leo houses the sun on the spring equinox.

当春分时太阳位于狮子座时，你就进入了狮子座时代。

Now this process unfolds very, very, very, very slowly, the whole cycle, and it is a cycle.

现在这个过程展开得非常、非常、非常、非常缓慢，整个循环，这是一个循环。

29:47 It repeats itself roughly every 26,000 years.

它大约每 26,000 年重演一次。

Put a more exact figure on it, 25,920 years.

更准确的数字是25,920年。

That may be a convention.

这可能是一个约定。

Some scholars would say it was a bit less than that, a bit more.

有些学者会说比这个少一点，多一点。

But you’re talking fractions.

但你说的是分数。

It’s in that area, 25,920 years.

就在那个区域，25,920 年。

And to observe it, you really need more than one human lifetime because it unfolds very, very slowly at a rate of one degree every 72 years.

要观察它，你确实需要不止一个人的一生，因为它的展开速度非常非常缓慢，每 72 年升高一度。

And the parallel that I often give is hold your finger up to the horizon, the distant horizon.

我经常给出的比喻是，将你的手指举向地平线，遥远的地平线。

The movement in one lifetime, in a period of 72 years is about the width of your finger.

人一生的运动量，72年的时间，大约是手指的宽度。

It’s not impossible to notice in a lifetime, but it’s difficult.

一生中注意到这一点并非不可能，但很难。

You’ve got to pass it on.

你必须把它传递下去。

And what seems to have happened is that some ancient culture, the culture that Santillana and von Dechend call some almost unbelievable ancestor culture, worked out the entire process of precession and selected the key numbers of precession, of which the most important number, the governing number is the number 72.

似乎发生的事情是，一些古老的文化，桑蒂拉纳和冯·德琴德称之为一些几乎令人难以置信的祖先文化的文化，计算出了岁差的整个过程，并选择了岁差的关键数字，其中最重要的数字，控制数字是数字72。

But we also have numbers related to the number 72.

但我们也有与数字 72 相关的数字。

72 plus 36 is 108, 108 divided by two.

72 加 36 等于 108，108 除以 2。

31:00 …

……

36 is 108.

36 是 108。

108 divided by two is 54.

108 除以 2 等于 54。

These numbers are also found in mythology all around the world.

这些数字也出现在世界各地的神话中。

There were 72 conspirators who were involved in killing the god Osiris in Ancient Egypt and nailing him up in a wooden coffer and dumping him in the Nile.

有 72 名阴谋者参与杀害古埃及的奥西里斯神，并将他钉在木箱里并扔进尼罗河。

There are 432,000 in the Rigveda.

《梨俱吠陀》中有 432,000 个。

432,000 is a multiple of 72.

432,000 是 72 的倍数。

31:32 And at Angkor, in Cambodia, for example, you have the bridge to Angkor Thom.

例如，在柬埔寨的吴哥，您有通往吴哥城的桥梁。

And on that bridge you have figures on both sides, sculpted figures, which are holding the body of a serpent.

在那座桥的两侧都有人物，雕刻的人物，握着一条蛇的身体。

That serpent is Vasuki, and what they’re doing is they’re churning the milky ocean.

那条蛇就是瓦苏基（Vasuki），它们正在做的就是搅动乳白色的海洋。

It’s the same metaphor of churning and turning that’s defined in the story of Hamlet’s Mill, of Amlodhi’s mill.

这与哈姆雷特磨坊和阿姆洛迪磨坊的故事中定义的搅拌和转动的隐喻相同。

There are 54 on each side.

每边有54个。

54 plus 54 is 108.

54 加 54 等于 108。

108 is 72 plus 36.

108 等于 72 加 36。

It’s a precessional number according to the work that Santillana and von Dechend did.

根据 Santillana 和 von Dechend 所做的工作，这是一个岁差数。

32:13 And the fascination with this numbers system and its discovery all around the world is one of the puzzles that intrigue me.

对这个数字系统的迷恋及其在世界各地的发现是引起我兴趣的谜题之一。

And suggest to me that we are looking at ancestral knowledge that was passed down, and probably was passed down from a specific single common source at one time, but then was spread out very widely around the world.

并向我建议，我们正在研究传承下来的祖先知识，并且可能曾经从一个特定的单一共同来源传承下来，但随后在世界范围内广泛传播。

One of the defining ways that you approach the study of human history that I think contrasts with mainstream archeology is that you take this astronomical symbolism and the relationship between humans and the stars very seriously.

我认为与主流考古学形成对比的人类历史研究的决定性方式之一是，您非常认真地对待这种天文象征意义以及人类与星星之间的关系。

I do, as I believe the ancients did.

我相信，正如我相信古人所做的那样。

I think it’s important to consider what humans would’ve thought about back then.

我认为重要的是要考虑当时人类的想法。

32:57 Now we have a lot of distractions.

现在我们有很多干扰。

We have social media, we can watch videos on YouTube and whatever.

我们有社交媒体，我们可以在 YouTube 上观看视频等等。

But back then, especially before electricity, the stars is the sexiest thing to talk about.

但在那时，尤其是在电力出现之前，星星是最性感的话题。

There’s no light pollution.

没有光污染。

There’s no light pollution so, I mean, you’re [inaudible 00:33:21]-

没有光污染，所以，我的意思是，你[听不清 00:33:21]-

That’s the majesty of the heavens.

这就是天之威严。

Every single night you’re spending looking up at the stars.

每个晚上你都会仰望星空。

33:23 And you can imagine there’s a lot of status value to be the guy who’s very good at studying the stars, as the scientists of the day.

你可以想象，作为当今的科学家，非常擅长研究星星的人有很多地位价值。

And I’m sure there’s going to be these geniuses that emerge.

我确信将会出现这些天才。

They’re able to do two things.

他们能够做两件事。

One, tell stories about the gods of whatever, based on the stars.

第一，以星星为基础讲述有关诸神的故事。

And then also, as we’ll probably talk about, use the stars practically for navigation, for example.

然后，正如我们可能会讨论的，例如，实际上使用星星进行导航。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

33:52 Definitely.

确实。

So it makes sense that the stars had a primal importance for the ideas of the times, for the status, for religious explorations.

因此，星星对于时代观念、地位和宗教探索具有至关重要的意义，这是有道理的。

It was an ever-present reality, and it was bright and it was brilliant, and it was full of lights.

这是一个永远存在的现实，它明亮、辉煌、充满光芒。

34:07 It’s inconceivable that the ancients would not have paid attention to it.

古人不重视这一点是不可思议的。

It was an overwhelming presence.

这是一种压倒性的存在。

34:19 And that’s one of the reasons why I’m really confident that the constellations that we now recognize as the constellations of the zodiac were recognized much earlier, because it’s hard to miss when you pay attention to the sky, that the sun over the course of the solar year is month by month rising against the background of different constellations.

这就是为什么我非常有信心我们现在所认识的黄道十二宫的星座在更早的时候就已被认识的原因之一，因为当你关注天空时，你很难错过太阳年中的太阳在不同星座的背景下逐月升起的事实。

And then there’s a much longer process, the process of precession, which takes that journey backwards and where we have a period of 2,160 years for each sign of the zodiac.

然后还有一个更长的过程，即岁差过程，它将这段旅程倒退，黄道十二宫的每个星座都有 2,160 年的周期。

34:49 I think it would’ve been hard for the ancients to have missed that.

我想古人很难忽视这一点。

They might not have identified the constellations in exactly the same way we do today.

他们可能不会像我们今天那样识别星座。

That may well be a Babylonian or Greek convention, but that the constellations were there I think was very clear.

这很可能是巴比伦或希腊的惯例，但我认为星座在那里是非常清楚的。

And that they were special constellations, unlike other ones higher up in the sky which were not on the path of the sun, that people paid attention to.

而且它们是特殊的星座，与天空中其他不在太阳路径上的星座不同，受到人们的关注。

Well, but detecting the procession of the equinox is hard because especially they don’t have any writing systems, they don’t have any mathematical systems.

好吧，但是检测春分点的运行是很困难的，因为特别是他们没有任何书写系统，他们没有任何数学系统。

35:11 So everything is told through words.

所以一切都是通过言语来讲述的。

Yeah.

是的。

35:22 Let’s not underestimate oral traditions.

我们不要低估口头传统。

Oral traditions, that’s something we’ve lost in our culture today.

口头传统，这是我们今天在文化中失去的东西。

One of the things that happens with the written word is that you gradually lose your memory.

书面文字发生的事情之一是你逐渐失去记忆。

35:37 Actually, there’s a nice story from Ancient Egypt about the god Thoth, the god of wisdom, who is very proud of himself because he has invented writing.

事实上，古埃及有一个关于智慧之神托特的精彩故事，他因为发明了文字而感到非常自豪。

“Look at this gift,” he says to a mythical pharaoh of that time, “Look at the gift that I’m giving humanity, writing.

“看看这份礼物，”他对当时的一位神话法老说，“看看我送给人类的礼物，写作。

This is a wonderful thing.

这是一件美妙的事情。

It’ll enable you to preserve so much that you would otherwise lose.” And the pharaoh in this story replies to him, “No, you have not given us a wonderful gift.

它将使你能够保存很多东西，否则你会失去很多东西。”这个故事中的法老回答他：“不，你没有给我们一份美妙的礼物。

You have destroyed the art of memory.

你破坏了记忆的艺术。

We will forget everything.

我们会忘记一切。

Words will roam free around the world, not accompanied by any wise advice to set them into context.” And actually that’s a very interesting point.

言语将在世界各地自由传播，却没有任何明智的建议将其置于上下文中。”事实上，这是一个非常有趣的点。

And we do know that cultures that still do have oral traditions are able to preserve information for very long periods of time.

我们确实知道，仍然有口头传统的文化能够将信息保存很长一段时间。

36:27 One thing I think is clear in any time, in any period of history, is human beings love stories.

我认为在任何时候、任何历史时期，有一件事都是很清楚的，那就是人类的爱情故事。

We love great stories.

我们喜欢精彩的故事。

And one way to preserve information is to encode it, embed it in a great story.

保存信息的一种方法是将其编码，将其嵌入到一个精彩的故事中。

And so carefully done that actually, it doesn’t matter whether the storyteller knows that they’re passing on that information or not.

事实上，只要做得如此仔细，讲故事的人是否知道他们正在传递这些信息并不重要。

The story itself is the vehicle.

故事本身就是载体。

And as long as it’s repeated faithfully, the information contained within it will be passed on.

而只要忠实地重复，其中所包含的信息就会被传承下去。

And I do think this is part of the story of the preservation of knowledge.

我确实认为这是知识保存故事的一部分。

That’s one of the reasons that you take myths seriously.

这就是你认真对待神话的原因之一。

I take them very seriously.

我非常认真地对待他们。

37:06 There’s many reasons, but I can’t help being deeply impressed and deeply puzzled by the worldwide tradition of a global cataclysm within human memory.

原因有很多，但我不禁对人类记忆中全球性灾难的世界传统印象深刻，也深感困惑。

I mean, we know scientifically that there have been many, many cataclysms in the past going back millions of years.

我的意思是，我们从科学上知道，数百万年前的过去发生过很多很多的灾难。

I mean, the best-known one of course is the KPG event as it’s now called, that made the dinosaurs extinct 65 million or 66 million years ago.

我的意思是，最著名的当然是现在所说的 KPG 事件，它导致恐龙在 6500 万或 6600 万年前灭绝。

37:42 But has there been such a cataclysm in the lifetime of the human species?

但人类有生之年有过这样的灾难吗？

Yeah, the Mount Toba eruption about 70,000 years ago was pretty bad.

是的，大约 7 万年前的多巴火山喷发非常严重。

But a global cataclysm, the Younger Dryas really ticks all the boxes as a worldwide disaster, which definitely involved sea level rise, both at the beginning and at the end of the Younger Dryas.

但作为一场全球性的灾难，新仙女木期确实是一场世界性灾难，它肯定会导致海平面上升，无论是在新仙女木期开始还是结束时。

It definitely involved the swallowing up of lands that previously had been above water.

这肯定涉及到先前露出水面的土地被吞没。

38:12 And I think it’s an excellent candidate for this worldwide tradition of a global cataclysm, of which one of, but not the only, distinguishing characteristics was a flood, an enormous flood, and the submergence of lands that had previously been above water, underwater.

我认为它是全球灾难这一全球传统的绝佳候选者，其中一个但不是唯一的显着特征是洪水，一场巨大的洪水，以及以前高于水面、水下的土地被淹没。

The fact that this story is found all around the world suggests to me that the archeological explanation is, look, people suffer local floods all the time.

这个故事在世界各地都有发现，这一事实向我表明，考古学的解释是，看，人们一直在遭受当地的洪水。

I mean, as we’re talking, there’s flooding in Florida, but I don’t think anybody in Florida is going to make the mistake of believing that that’s a global flood.

我的意思是，正如我们所说，佛罗里达州发生了洪水，但我认为佛罗里达州的任何人都不会错误地认为这是一场全球性洪水。

They know it’s local.

他们知道这是本地的。

38:52 But that’s the argument largely of archeology, dealing with the flood myths, or that some local population experienced a nasty local flooding event and they decided to say that it affected the whole world.

但这主要是考古学的论点，涉及洪水神话，或者一些当地居民经历了一场严重的当地洪水事件，他们决定说它影响了整个世界。

I’m not persuaded by that, particularly since we know there was a nasty epoch, the Younger Dryas, when flooding did occur, and when the Earth was subjected to events cataclysmic enough to extinguish entirely the megafauna of the ice age.

我不相信这一点，特别是因为我们知道有一个令人讨厌的时代，即新仙女木期，当时确实发生了洪水，当时地球遭受了足以完全消灭冰河时代巨型动物的灾难。

There is the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis that provides an explanation of what happened during this period that resulted in such rapid environmental change.

新仙女木撞击假说可以解释这一时期发生的事情，导致如此快速的环境变化。

39:20 So can you explain this hypothesis?

那么你能解释一下这个假设吗？

Yes.

是的。

39:32 The Younger Dryas impact hypothesis, YDIH for short, is not a lunatic fringe theory as its opponents often attempt to write it off.

新仙女木撞击假说（简称 YDIH）并不是一个疯狂的边缘理论，因为它的反对者经常试图否定它。

It’s the work of more than 60 major scientists working across many different disciplines, including archeology and including oceanography as well.

这是 60 多位跨学科（包括考古学和海洋学）的主要科学家的成果。

39:59 And they are collectively puzzled by the sudden onset of the Younger Dryas, and by the fact that it is accompanied 12,800 years ago by a distinct layer in the Earth.

他们都对新仙女木期的突然爆发以及 12,800 年前伴随着它的地球上的一个独特的层这一事实感到困惑。

You can see it most clearly at Murray Springs in Arizona, for example.

例如，您可以在亚利桑那州的墨累泉 (Murray Springs) 最清楚地看到它。

You can see, it’s about the width of a human hand, and there’s a draw there that’s been cut by flash flooding at some time.

你可以看到，它大约有一个人的手掌那么宽，而且那里有一个平局，在某个时候被山洪淹没了。

And that draw has revealed the sides of the draw.

那次抽签已经揭示了抽签的双方。

40:29 And you can see the cross-section.

你可以看到横截面。

And in the cross-section is this distinct dark layer that runs through the Earth.

在横截面中，有一个贯穿地球的独特暗层。

And it contains evidence of wildfires, there is a lot of soot in it.

而且里面有野火的证据，里面有很多烟灰。

There are also nanodiamonds in it.

里面还有纳米金刚石。

There is shocked quartz in it.

里面有震动石英。

There is quartz that’s been melted at temperatures in excess of 2,200 degrees centigrade.

有些石英在超过 2,200 摄氏度的温度下熔化。

There are carbon microspherules.

有碳微球。

All of these are proxies for some kind of cosmic impact.

所有这些都是某种宇宙影响的代表。

40:59 I talked a moment ago about the extinction of the dinosaurs.

我刚才谈到了恐龙的灭绝。

Luis and Walter Alvarez, who made that incredible discovery, initially their discovery was based entirely on impact proxies, just as the Younger Dryas is.

路易斯·阿尔瓦雷斯和沃尔特·阿尔瓦雷斯做出了这一令人难以置信的发现，最初他们的发现完全基于影响代理，就像新仙女木一样。

There was no crater.

没有陨石坑。

And for a long time they were disbelieved because they couldn’t produce a crater.

很长一段时间，人们对他们持怀疑态度，因为他们无法制造出陨石坑。

But when they finally did produce that deeply buried Chicxulub crater, that’s when people started to say, “Yeah, they have to be right.” But they weren’t relying on the crater, they were relying on the impact proxies.

但当他们最终确实产生了深埋的希克苏鲁伯陨石坑时，人们开始说：“是的，他们一定是对的。”但他们并不依赖于陨石坑，而是依赖于撞击代理。

And they’re the same impact proxies that we find in what’s called the Younger Dryas boundary layer all around the world.

它们与我们在世界各地所谓的新仙女木边界层中发现的影响代理相同。

41:36 So it’s the fact that at the moment when the Earth tips into a radical climate shift, it’s been warming up for at least 2,000 years before 12,800 years ago, people at the time must have been feeling a great sense of relief.

所以事实上，当地球面临剧烈的气候变化时，距12800年前至少2000年，地球已经变暖，当时的人们一定感到了一种巨大的解脱。

“We’ve been living through this really cold time, but it’s getting better.

“我们经历了这个非常寒冷的时期，但情况正在好转。

Things are getting better.” And then suddenly, around 12,800 years ago, some might say 12, 860 years ago, there’s a massive global plunge in global temperatures, and the world suddenly gets as cold as it was at the peak of the ice age.

情况正在好转。”然后突然之间，大约 12,800 年前，有些人可能会说 12、860 年前，全球气温大幅下降，世界突然变得像冰河时代顶峰时一样寒冷。

And it’s almost literally overnight.

这几乎是一夜之间。

It’s very, very, very rapid.

它非常非常非常快。

42:15 Normally in an epoch, when the Earth is going into a freeze, you would not expect sea levels to rise.

通常在一个时期，当地球进入冰冻状态时，你不会期望海平面上升。

But there is a sea level rise, a sudden one, right at the beginning of the Younger Dryas.

但就在新仙女木期开始时，海平面突然上升。

And then you have this long frozen period from 12,800 to 11,600 years ago.

然后就是从 12,800 年前到 11,600 年前的漫长冰冻期。

And then equally, dramatically and equally suddenly the Younger Dryas comes to an end and the world very rapidly warms up.

然后，新仙女木期同样戏剧性地突然结束，世界迅速变暖。

And you have a recognized pulse of meltwater at that time as the last of the glaciers collapse into the sea, called meltwater pulse 1B, around about 11,600 years ago.

当最后一批冰川崩塌入海时，您会看到一个公认的融水脉冲，称为融水脉冲 1B，大约发生在 11,600 年前。

42:53 This is a period which is very tightly defined, it’s a period when we know that human populations were grievously disturbed.

这是一个定义非常严格的时期，在这个时期我们知道人类受到了严重的干扰。

That’s when the so-called Clovis culture of North America vanished entirely from the record during the Younger Dryas.

就在那时，所谓的北美克洛维文化在新仙女木期完全从记录中消失了。

And it’s the time when the mammoths and the saber-toothed tigers vanished from the record as well.

猛犸象和剑齿虎也从记录中消失了。

Is there a good understanding of what happened geologically, whether there was an impact or not?

对地质上发生的事情是否有很好的了解，是否有影响？

43:13 What explains this huge dip in temperature and then rise in temperature?

如何解释温度的巨大下降然后温度的上升？

The abrupt cessation of the global meridional overturning circulation, of which the Gulf Stream is the best-known part, the main theory that’s been put forward up to now, and I don’t dispute that theory at all, is that the sudden freeze was caused by the cutting off of the Gulf Stream basically, which is part of the central heating system of our planet.

全球经向翻转环流的突然停止，其中墨西哥湾流是最著名的部分，迄今为止提出的主要理论，我对这个理论没有任何异议，那就是，突然结冰基本上是由墨西哥湾流的切断造成的，而墨西哥湾流是我们星球中央供暖系统的一部分。

43:24 So no wonder it became cold.

所以难怪天气变冷了。

43:53 But what’s not really been addressed before is why that happened, why the Gulf Stream was cut, why a sudden pulse of meltwater went into the world ocean, and it was so much of it and it was so cold that it actually stopped the Gulf Stream in its tracks.

但之前没有真正解决的是为什么会发生这种情况，为什么墨西哥湾流被切断，为什么融水突然进入世界海洋，而且融水量如此之大，而且如此寒冷，以至于它实际上阻止了墨西哥湾流的发展。

And that’s where the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis offers a very elegant and very satisfactory solution to the problem.

这就是新仙女木撞击假说为这个问题提供了一个非常优雅且非常令人满意的解决方案的地方。

44:14 Now, the hypothesis, of course, is broader than that.

当然，现在的假设比这更广泛。

Amongst the scientists working on it are, for example, Bill Napier, an astrophysicist and astronomer.

例如，天体物理学家和天文学家比尔·纳皮尔（Bill Napier）就是从事这一研究的科学家之一。

They have assembled a great deal of evidence, which suggests that the culprit in the Younger Dryas impact event or events was what we now call the Taurid meteor stream, which the Earth still passes through twice a year.

他们收集了大量证据，表明新仙女木撞击事件的罪魁祸首是我们现在所说的金牛座流星流，地球每年仍会经过两次。

It’s now about 30 million kilometers wide, takes the Earth a couple of days to pass through it on its orbit.

它现在宽约 3000 万公里，地球需要几天时间才能在其轨道上穿过它。

It passes through it in June, and it passes through it at the end of October.

六月穿过它，十月底穿过它。

44:54 The suggestion is that the Taurid meteor stream is the end product of a very large comet that entered the solar system round about 20,000 years ago.

有人认为，金牛座流星流是一颗大约 2 万年前进入太阳系的巨大彗星的最终产物。

Came in from the Oort cloud, got trapped by the gravity of the Sun, and went into orbit around the Sun, an orbit that crossed the orbit of the Earth.

从奥尔特云进来，受到太阳引力的束缚，进入绕太阳的轨道，这是一个与地球轨道交叉的轨道。

However, when it was one object, the likelihood of a collision with the Earth was extremely small.

然而，当它是一个物体时，与地球相撞的可能性极小。

45:22 But as it started to do what all comets do, which was to break up into multiple fragments because these are chunks of rock held together by ice, and as they warm up, they split and disintegrate and break into pieces, as it passed through that its debris stream became larger and larger and wider and wider.

但当它开始做所有彗星所做的事情时，即分裂成多个碎片，因为这些是由冰粘合在一起的大块岩石，当它们变暖时，它们分裂、瓦解并破碎成碎片，当它穿过时，它的碎片流变得越来越大、越来越宽。

And the theory is that 12,800 years ago, the Earth passed through a particularly dense part of the Taurid meteor stream and was hit by multiple impacts all around the planet, certainly from the west of North America, as far east as Syria.

该理论认为，12,800 年前，地球穿过金牛座流星流特别密集的部分，并受到全球各地的多次撞击，当然从北美西部，一直到叙利亚。

45:58 And that we are by and large not talking about impacts that would’ve caused craters, although there certainly were some, we are talking about air bursts.

总的来说，我们并不是在谈论会造成陨石坑的撞击，尽管确实有一些陨石坑，但我们正在谈论空气爆炸。

When an object is 100 or 150 meters in diameter and it’s coming in very fast into the Earth’s atmosphere, it is very unlikely to reach the earth, it’s going to blow up in the sky.

当一个物体直径为100或150米并且它以非常快的速度进入地球大气层时，它不太可能到达地球，它会在天空中爆炸。

And the best known recent example of that is the Tunguska event in Siberia, which took place on the 30th of June 1908.

最近最著名的例子是 1908 年 6 月 30 日发生在西伯利亚的通古斯事件。

46:33 The Tunguska event was, nobody disputes, it was definitely an air burst of a cometary fragment.

毫无疑问，通古斯事件绝对是彗星碎片的空中爆发。

And the date is interesting because the 30th of June is the height of the Beta Taurids.

这个日期很有趣，因为 6 月 30 日是金牛座β流星雨的全盛期。

It’s one of the two times when the Earth is going through the Taurid meteor stream.

这是地球两次穿过金牛座流星雨之一。

Well, luckily that part of Siberia wasn’t inhabited, but 2,000 square miles of forest were destroyed.

幸运的是，西伯利亚的那部分地区无人居住，但 2,000 平方英里的森林被毁了。

If that had happened over a major city, we would all be thinking very hard about objects out of the Taurid meteor stream and about the risk of cosmic impact.

如果这种情况发生在一座大城市上空，我们都会非常认真地思考金牛座流星流中的物体以及宇宙撞击的风险。

47:05 So the suggestion is that it wasn’t one impact, it wasn’t two impacts, it wasn’t three impacts, it was hundreds of air bursts all around the planet.

因此，我们的建议是，这不是一次撞击，不是两次撞击，也不是三次撞击，而是地球周围数百次空气爆发。

Coupled with a number of bigger objects, which the scientists working on this think hit the North American ice cap largely.

再加上一些更大的物体，研究人员认为这些物体主要撞击了北美冰盖。

Some of them may also have hit the Northern European ice cap, resulting in that sudden otherwise unexplained flood of meltwater that went into the world ocean and caused the cooling that then took place.

其中一些也可能撞击了北欧冰盖，导致突然出现无法解释的融水流入世界海洋，导致随后发生的降温。

47:34 But this was a disaster for life all over the planet.

但这对整个地球的生命来说是一场灾难。

And it’s interesting that one of the sites where they find the Younger Dryas boundary and where they find overwhelming evidence of an air burst and where they find all the shocked quartz, the carbon microspherules, the nanodiamonds, the trinitite, and so on and so forth, all of those impact proxies are found at Abu Hureyra.

有趣的是，他们发现新仙女木边界的地点之一，他们发现了空气爆发的压倒性证据，他们发现了所有冲击石英、碳微球、纳米金刚石、三硝石等等，所有这些撞击代理都在阿布胡赖拉发现。

That was a settlement within 150 miles of Gobekli Tepe, and it was hit 12,800 years ago and it was obliterated.

那是距哥贝克力石阵 150 英里范围内的一个定居点，12,800 年前遭到袭击并被摧毁。

Interestingly, it was re-inhabited by human beings within probably five years, but it was completely obliterated at that time.

有趣的是，大约五年之内，它就重新被人类居住，但当时它就被完全消灭了。

And it is difficult to imagine that the people who lived in that area would not have been very impressed by what they saw happening by these massive explosions in the sky and the obliteration of Abu Hureyra.

很难想象，居住在该地区的人们不会对他们所看到的天空中发生的大规模爆炸和阿布胡赖拉的毁灭留下深刻的印象。

48:30 Now this is a theory, the Younger Dryas impact.

现在这是一个理论，新仙女木期的影响。

It’s a hypothesis actually, it’s not even a theory.

这实际上是一个假设，甚至不是一个理论。

A theory is, I think, considered a higher level than a hypothesis.

我认为，理论被认为是比假设更高的层次。

That’s why it’s the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis.

这就是新仙女木撞击假说的原因。

And of course it has many opponents and there are many who disagree with it.

当然，它有很多反对者，也有很多人不同意它。

And there have been a series of peer-reviewed papers that have been published supposedly debunking the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis.

并且已经发表了一系列经过同行评审的论文，据称这些论文揭穿了新仙女木撞击假说。

One, I think was in 2011, it was called a Requiem for the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis.

其中一个，我记得是在 2011 年，它被称为“新仙女木影响假说的安魂曲”。

And there’s one just been published a few months ago or a year ago called a Complete Refutation of the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis, something like that, some lengthy title.

几个月前或一年前刚刚发表了一篇文章，名为《全面反驳新仙女木撞击假说》，类似的东西，一些冗长的标题。

49:14 So it’s a hypothesis that has its opponents, and even within those of us who are looking at the alternative side of history, there are different points of view.

因此，这个假设也有其反对者，甚至在我们这些看待历史另一面的人中，也存在不同的观点。

Robert Schoch from Boston University, the geologist who demonstrated that the erosion on the Sphinx may well have been caused by exposure to a long period of very heavy rainfall, he doesn’t go for the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis.

波士顿大学的地质学家罗伯特·肖赫（Robert Schoch）证明了狮身人面像的侵蚀很可能是由于长期遭受强降雨造成的，但他并不支持新仙女木撞击假说。

He fully accepts that the Younger Dryas was a global cataclysm and that the extinctions took place, but he thinks it was caused by some kind of massive solar outburst.

他完全接受新仙女木期是一场全球性的灾难，并且灭绝已经发生，但他认为这是由某种大规模的太阳爆发引起的。

49:50 What everybody’s agreed on is the Younger Dryas was bad, but there is dispute about what caused it.

每个人都同意新仙女木期很糟糕，但对于造成这种情况的原因却存在争议。

I personally have found the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis to be the most persuasive, which most effectively explains all the evidence.

我个人发现新仙女木撞击假说最具说服力，它最有效地解释了所有证据。

How important is the impact hypothesis to your understanding of the ice age advanced civilizations?

撞击假说对于您了解冰河时代先进文明有多重要？

50:05 Is it possible to have another explanation for environmental factors that could have erased most of an advanced civilization during this period?

对于这一时期可能消灭大部分先进文明的环境因素，是否有可能有另一种解释？

In a sense, it’s not the impact hypothesis that is central to what I’m saying, it’s the Younger Dryas that’s central to what I’m saying.

从某种意义上说，我所说的核心并不是影响假说，而是新仙女木事件才是我所说的核心。

50:21 And the Younger Dryas required a trigger, something caused it.

新仙女木事件需要一个触发因素，有某种原因导致了它。

I think the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis, the notion that we’re looking at a debris stream of a fragmenting comet, and we can still see that debris stream because it’s still up there and we still pass through it twice a year, is the best explanation.

我认为新仙女木撞击假说是最好的解释，即我们正在观察一颗破碎彗星的碎片流，并且我们仍然可以看到碎片流，因为它仍然在那里，而且我们仍然每年两次经过它。

But I don’t mind other explanations.

但我不介意其他解释。

It’s good that there are other explanations.

幸好还有其他解释。

The Younger Dryas is a big mystery, and it’s not a mystery that’s been solved yet.

新仙女木期是一个大谜团，而且还不是一个尚未解开的谜团。

50:55 And that word, advanced civilization, this is another word that is easily misunderstood.

还有那个词，先进文明，这又是一个很容易被误解的词。

And I’ve tried to make clear many, many times that when we consider the possibility of something like a civilization in the past, we shouldn’t imagine that it’s us, that it’s something like us.

我已经多次试图澄清，当我们考虑过去类似文明的可能性时，我们不应该想象它是我们，它是像我们一样的东西。

We should expect it to be completely different from us, but that it would’ve achieved certain things.

我们应该期待它与我们完全不同，但它会取得某些成就。

51:22 Amongst the clues that intrigue me are those precessional numbers that are found all around the world, and are a category of ancient maps called Portolanos, which suddenly started to appear just after the crusade that entered Constantinople and sacked Constantinople, the Portolanos suddenly start to appear.

令我感兴趣的线索之一是那些在世界各地发现的岁差数字，并且是一类称为Portolanos的古代地图，它在十字军进入君士坦丁堡并洗劫君士坦丁堡之后突然开始出现，Portolanos突然开始出现。

And they’re extremely accurate maps.

它们是极其精确的地图。

The most of the ones that have survived are extremely accurate maps of the Mediterranean alone, but some of them show much wider areas.

大多数幸存下来的地图都是非常精确的地中海地图，但其中一些地图显示的区域要广泛得多。

51:54 For example, on these Portolano-style maps, you do find a depiction of Antarctica again and again.

例如，在这些波托拉诺风格的地图上，您确实会一次又一次地发现南极洲的描绘。

And another thing that these maps have in common is that many of the mapmakers state that they base their maps on multiple older source maps, which have not survived.

这些地图的另一个共同点是，许多地图制作者表示，他们的地图基于多个较旧的源地图，但这些地图尚未保存下来。

These maps are intriguing because they have very accurate relative longitudes.

这些地图很有趣，因为它们具有非常准确的相对经度。

52:16 Our civilization did not crack the longitude problem until the mid-18th century with Harrison’s chronometer, which was able to keep accurate time at sea so you could have the time in London and you could have the local time at sea at the same time.

直到18世纪中叶，我们的文明才用哈里森的天文钟解决了经度问题，它能够在海上保持准确的时间，这样你就可以在海上同时获得伦敦时间和当地时间。

And then you could work out your longitude.

然后你就可以计算出你的经度。

There might be other ways of working out longitude as well, but there it is.

可能还有其他计算经度的方法，但就是这样。

The fact is these Portolanos have extremely accurate relative longitudes.

事实上，这些波托拉诺岛拥有极其准确的相对经度。

52:43 Secondly, some of them show the world, to my eye, as it looked during the ice age.

其次，其中一些在我眼中展示了冰河时代的世界。

They show a much extended Indonesia and Malaysian peninsula and the series of islands that make up Indonesia today are all grouped together into one landmass.

它们展示了广阔的印度尼西亚和马来西亚半岛，以及构成今天印度尼西亚的一系列岛屿都聚集在一起形成了一块陆地。

And that was the case during the ice age.

冰河时期就是这种情况。

That was the Sunda Shelf.

那就是巽他架。

And the presence of Antarctica on some of these maps also puzzles and intrigues me and is not satisfactorily explained in my view by archeology, which says, “Oh, those mapmakers, they felt that the world needed something underneath it to balance it so they put a fictional landmass there.”

其中一些地图上南极洲的存在也让我感到困惑和好奇，在我看来，考古学并不能令人满意地解释这一点，考古学说，“哦，那些地图制作者，他们觉得世界需要在它下面有一些东西来平衡它，所以他们在那里放置了一个虚构的陆地。”

53:21 I don’t think that makes sense.

我认为这没有道理。

I think somebody was mapping the world during the last ice age, but that doesn’t mean that they had our kind of tech.

我认为有人在上一个冰河时代绘制了世界地图，但这并不意味着他们拥有我们这种技术。

It means that they were following that exploration instinct.

这意味着他们遵循的是探索本能。

That they knew how to navigate.

他们知道如何导航。

They’d been watching the stars for thousands of years before, they knew how to navigate and they knew how to build seagoing ships.

他们几千年前就观察星星了，他们知道如何导航，他们知道如何建造海船。

And they explored the world and they mapped the world.

他们探索了世界并绘制了世界地图。

53:46 Those maps were made a very, very long time ago.

这些地图是在非常非常久以前制作的。

Some of them, I believe, were likely preserved in the Library of Alexandria.

我相信其中一些可能保存在亚历山大图书馆中。

I think even then they were being copied and recopied.

我认为即使在那时，它们仍然被复制和重新复制。

We don’t know exactly what happened to the Library of Alexandria, except that it was destroyed.

我们不知道亚历山大图书馆究竟发生了什么，只知道它被毁了。

I suggest it’s likely this was during the period of the Roman Empire.

我认为这可能是在罗马帝国时期。

I suggest it’s likely that some of those maps were taken out of the library and taken to Constantinople, and that’s where they were liberated during the crusade and entered world culture again and started to be copied and recopied.

我认为其中一些地图很可能被从图书馆取出并带到君士坦丁堡，在那里它们在十字军东征期间被解放并再次进入世界文化并开始被复制和重新复制。

From this perspective, when we talk about advanced ice age civilization, it could have been a relatively small group of people with the technology of their scholars of the stars and their expert seafaring navigators.

从这个角度来看，当我们谈论先进的冰河时代文明时，它可能是一小群拥有星星学者和专业航海家技术的人。

Yes, that’s about as far as I would take it.

是的，我就这么认为。

54:38 And when I say that, as I have said on a number of occasions, that it had technology equivalent to ours in the 18th century, I’m referring specifically to the ability to calculate longitude.

正如我在很多场合说过的那样，当我说它拥有与我们 18 世纪的技术相当的技术时，我特指的是计算经度的能力。

I’m not saying that they were building steam engines.

我并不是说他们在制造蒸汽机。

I don’t see any evidence for that.

我没有看到任何证据。

And perhaps some building tricks and skills of how to [inaudible 00:55:03].

也许还有一些构建技巧和技巧 [听不清 00:55:03]。

Well, definitely.

嗯，当然。

55:02 And this, again, is where you come to a series of mysteries, which are perhaps best expressed on the Giza Plateau in Egypt with the three Great Pyramids.

在这里，你又会发现一系列的奥秘，这些奥秘也许在埃及吉萨高原的三座大金字塔上得到了最好的体现。

And the extraordinary megalithic temples that many people don’t pay much attention to on the Giza Plateau and the Great Sphinx itself.

还有吉萨高原上许多人不太关注的非凡巨石寺庙和狮身人面像本身。

This is an area of particular importance in understanding this issue.

这是理解这个问题特别重要的一个领域。

Well, can you actually describe the Sphinx and the Great Pyramids and what you find most mysterious and interesting about them?

那么，您能具体描述一下狮身人面像和大金字塔以及您认为它们最神秘和有趣的地方吗？

Well, first of all, the astronomy.

嗯，首先是天文学。

55:37 And here I must pay tribute to two individuals, actually three individuals in particular.

在这里我必须向两个人致敬，实际上特别是三个人。

One of them is John Anthony West, passed away in 2018.

其中之一是约翰·安东尼·韦斯特，于 2018 年去世。

He was the first person in our era to begin to wonder if the Sphinx was much older than it had been.

他是我们这个时代第一个开始怀疑狮身人面像是否比以前古老得多的人。

55:57 Actually, he got that idea from a philosopher called Schwaller de Lubicz, who’d noticed what he thought was water erosion on the body of the Sphinx.

事实上，他的这个想法是从一位名叫施瓦勒·德·卢比茨（Schwaller de Lubicz）的哲学家那里得到的，这位哲学家注意到了他认为的狮身人面像是水的侵蚀。

John West picked that up, and he was a great amateur Egyptologist himself.

约翰·韦斯特继承了这一点，他本人也是一位伟大的业余埃及古物学家。

He spent most of his life in Egypt and he was hugely versed in Ancient Egypt.

他一生的大部分时间都在埃及度过，对古埃及非常熟悉。

And when he looked at the Sphinx and at the strange scalloped erosion patterns and the vertical fissures, particularly in the trench around the Sphinx, he began to think maybe Schwaller was right, maybe there was some of some sort of flooding here.

当他看着狮身人面像，看着奇怪的扇形侵蚀图案和垂直裂缝，特别是狮身人面像周围的沟渠时，他开始认为也许施瓦勒是对的，也许这里发生了某种洪水。

56:29 And that’s when he brought Robert Shoch, second person I’d like to recognize, geologist at Boston University.

就在那时，他带来了罗伯特·肖赫（Robert Shoch），我想认识的第二个人，波士顿大学的地质学家。

He brought Shoch to Giza, and Shock was the first geologist to stick his neck out, risk the ire of Egyptologists, and say, “Well, it looks to me like the Sphinx was exposed to at least a thousand years of heavy rainfall.” And as Shoch’s calculations have continued, as he’s continued to be immersed in this mystery, he’s continuously pushed that back.

他把肖克带到了吉萨，而肖克是第一个冒着激怒埃及古物学家的风险，挺身而出的地质学家，他说：“好吧，在我看来，狮身人面像至少经历了一千年的强降雨。”随着肖赫的计算继续进行，当他继续沉浸在这个谜团中时，他不断地把它推后。

And he’s now, again, looking at the date of around 12,000, 12,500 years ago during the Younger Dryas for the creation of the Great Sphinx.

现在，他再次寻找大约 12,000 至 12,500 年前的新仙女期期间大狮身人面像的形成日期。

57:05 And then, of course, this is the period of the wet Sahara, the humid Sahara.

当然，这是潮湿的撒哈拉时期，潮湿的撒哈拉。

The Sahara was a completely different place during the ice age.

冰河时期的撒哈拉是一个完全不同的地方。

There were rivers in it, there were lakes in it, it was fertile, it was possibly densely populated, and there was a lot of rain.

那里有河流，有湖泊，土地肥沃，可能人口稠密，雨水也很多。

There’s not no rain in Giza today, but there’s relatively little rain.

今天吉萨不是没有下雨，但雨量相对较少。

Not enough rain to cause that erosion damage on the Sphinx.

没有足够的降雨对狮身人面像造成侵蚀破坏。

57:31 The next person who needs to be mentioned in this context is Robert Bauval.

在这方面下一个需要提到的人是罗伯特·鲍瓦尔。

Robert and I have co-authored a number of books together.

罗伯特和我共同撰写了多本书。

Unfortunately, Robert has been very ill for the last seven years.

不幸的是，罗伯特在过去七年里一直病得很重。

He’s got a very bad chest infection.

他的胸部感染非常严重。

And I think also that Robert became very demoralized by the attacks of Egyptologists on his work.

我还认为，埃及古物学家对他的工作的攻击使罗伯特变得非常沮丧。

But Robert is the genius, and it does take a genius sometime to make these connections because nobody noticed it before, that the three pyramids of Giza are laid out on the ground in the pattern of the three stars of Orion’s belt.

但罗伯特是天才，确实需要天才才能将这些联系起来，因为以前没有人注意到吉萨的三座金字塔按照猎户座腰带的三颗星星的图案排列在地面上。

58:09 And skeptics will say, “Well, you can find any buildings and line them up with any stars you want,” but Orion actually isn’t any old constellation.

怀疑论者会说，“好吧，你可以找到任何建筑物并将它们与你想要的任何星星排成一行”，但猎户座实际上并不是任何古老的星座。

Orion was the god Osiris in the sky.

猎户座是天上的奥西里斯神。

The ancient Egyptians called the Orion constellation Sahu, and they recognized it as the celestial image of the god Osiris.

古埃及人将猎户座称为萨胡（Sahu），他们认为它是奥西里斯神的天体形象。

So what’s being copied on the ground is the belt of a deity, of a celestial deity.

所以地上复制的就是一个神的腰带，一个天神的腰带。

It’s not just a random constellation.

这不仅仅是一个随机的星座。

58:36 And then when we take precession into account, you find something else very intriguing happening.

然后当我们考虑进动时，你会发现其他非常有趣的事情发生了。

First of all, you find that the exact orientation of the pyramids as it is today, and pretty much as it was when they’re supposed to have been built 4,500 years ago, it’s not precisely related to how Orion’s Belt looked at that time.

首先，你会发现金字塔今天的确切方向，和 4500 年前金字塔应该建造时的方向差不多，与猎户座腰带当时的样子并不完全相关。

There’s a bit of a twist, they’re not quite right.

有一点曲折，他们不太正确。

But as you precess the stars backwards, as you go back and back and back and you come to around 10,500 BC, 12,500 years ago in the Younger Dryas, you find that suddenly they lock perfectly.

但当你向后进动星星时，当你来回走动，回到公元前 10,500 年左右，即 12,500 年前的新仙女木期时，你会发现它们突然完全锁定了。

They match perfectly with the three pyramids on the ground.

它们与地面上的三座金字塔完美匹配。

59:20 And that’s the same moment that the Great Sphinx, an equinoctial monument, aligned perfectly to the rising sun on the spring equinox.

就在同一时刻，春分纪念碑大狮身人面像与春分初升的太阳完美对齐。

Anybody can test this through themselves.

任何人都可以通过自己来测试这一点。

Just go to Giza on the 21st of March, be there before dawn, stand behind the Sphinx, and you will see the sun rising directly in line with the gaze of the Sphinx.

只要3月21日去吉萨，黎明前到达，站在狮身人面像后面，你就会看到太阳与狮身人面像的目光直接升起。

But the question is what constellation was behind the Sphinx?

但问题是狮身人面像背后是什么星座？

And 12,500 years ago it was the constellation of Leo.

12,500年前它是狮子座。

And actually the constellation of Leo has a very Sphinx-like look.

事实上，狮子座的外观非常像狮身人面像。

And I and my colleagues are pretty sure that the Sphinx was originally a lion entirely.

我和我的同事非常确定狮身人面像最初完全是一只狮子。

And that over the thousands of years, it became damaged, it became eroded, particularly the part of it that sticks out the head.

几千年来，它被损坏、被侵蚀，特别是伸出头部的部分。

There were periods when the Sphinx was completely covered in sand, but still the head stuck out.

有时候，狮身人面像完全被沙子覆盖，但头仍然伸出来。

1:00:14 By the time you come to the Fourth Dynasty, when the Great Pyramids are supposedly built, by the time you come to the Fourth Dynasty, the lion, original lion head, would’ve been a complete mess.

到了第四王朝的时候，据说大金字塔建成的时候，到了第四王朝的时候，狮子，原来的狮头，已经是一团糟了。

And we suggest that it was then re-carved into a pharaonic head.

我们建议将其重新雕刻成法老头像。

Egyptologists think it was the pharaoh Khafre, but there’s no real strong resemblance, but it’s definitely wearing the nemes headdress of an ancient Egyptian pharaoh.

埃及古物学家认为这是法老哈夫拉，但并没有真正的相似之处，但它绝对戴着古埃及法老的尼姆头饰。

And we think that that’s a result of a recarving of what was originally not only a lion-bodied, but also a lion-headed monument.

我们认为这是对最初的狮子身和狮头纪念碑进行重新雕刻的结果。

1:00:50 It wouldn’t make sense if you create an equinoctial marker in the time of Khafre 4,500 years ago, and the Sphinx is an equinoctial marker.

如果你在 4500 年前的哈夫拉时代创造了一个春分标记，那是没有意义的，而狮身人面像就是一个春分标记。

I mean, it’s 270 feet long and 70 feet high and it’s looking directly at the rising sun on the equinox.

我的意思是，它长 270 英尺，高 70 英尺，在春分时它可以直视初升的太阳。

If you create it then, you’d be more likely to create it in the shape of a bull, because that was the age of Taurus, when the constellation of Taurus housed the sun on the spring equinox.

如果你那时创造它，你更有可能把它创造成公牛的形状，因为那是金牛座的时代，金牛座在春分时容纳了太阳。

So why is it a lion?

那么为什么是狮子呢？

And again, we think that’s because of that observation of the skies and putting on the ground as above, so below, putting on the ground an image of the sky at a particular time.

再说一次，我们认为这是因为对天空的观察，并将在上面、下面的地面上放置了特定时间天空的图像。

1:01:32 Now, the fact that the Giza Plateau, it’s a fact, of course, that Egyptologists completely dispute, but the fact that the principle monuments of the Giza Plateau, the three Great Pyramids and the Great Sphinx, all lock astronomically on the date of around 10,500 BC, to me, is most unlikely to be an accident.

现在，吉萨高原这一事实当然是埃及古物学家完全争论的事实，但吉萨高原的主要古迹、三座大金字塔和大狮身人面像在天文学上都锁定在公元前 10,500 年左右，这一事实对我来说，最不可能是一个意外。

And actually, if you look at computer software at the sky at that time, you’ll see that the Milky Way is very prominent and seems to be mirrored on the ground by the river Nile-

事实上，如果你看一下当时天空的电脑软件，你会发现银河系非常突出，似乎是在尼罗河边倒映在地面上——

1:02:00 …prominent and seems to be mirrored on the ground by the river Nile.

......突出，似乎是尼罗河在地面上的倒影。

I suggest that may be one of the reasons amongst many why Giza was chosen as the site for this very special place.

我认为这可能是选择吉萨作为这个非常特别的地方的众多原因之一。

The point I want to make is that an astronomical design on the ground, which memorializes a very ancient date, does not have to have been done 12,500 years ago.

我想说的一点是，地面上的天文设计，纪念一个非常古老的日期，不一定是12500年前就完成的。

If, from the ancient Egyptian point of view, you’re there 4, 500 years ago, and there’s a time 8,000 years before that, which is very, very, very important to you, you could use astronomical language and megalithic architecture to memorialize that date on the Giza Plateau, which is what we think we’re looking at, except for one thing, and that’s the erosion patterns on the Sphinx.

如果从古埃及的角度来看，你在四五百年前就在那里，而在那之前有一个八千年的时间，这对你来说非常非常非常重要，你可以用天文语言和巨石建筑来纪念吉萨高原上的那个日期，这就是我们认为我们正在看到的，除了一件事，那就是狮身人面像上的侵蚀图案。

1:02:52 We are pretty sure that the Sphinx, at least, does date back to 12 and a half thousand years ago and with it, the megalithic temples, the so-called Valley Temple, which stands just to the east and just to the south of the Sphinx and the Sphinx temple, which stands directly in front of the Sphinx.

我们非常确定，狮身人面像至少可以追溯到 12500 年前，随之而来的是巨石神庙，即所谓的山谷神庙，它位于狮身人面像的东面和南面，以及狮身人面像正前方的狮身人面像神庙。

The Sphinx temple has largely been destroyed.

狮身人面像神庙大部分已被毁坏。

But the Valley Temple, attributed to Khafre on no good grounds whatsoever, is a huge megalithic construction with blocks of limestone that weigh up to 100 tons each.

但山谷神庙毫无根据地被认为是哈夫拉所建，它是一座巨大的巨石建筑，由石灰石块组成，每块重达 100 吨。

Yet, it has been remodeled/refaced with granite.

然而，它已经用花岗岩进行了改造/翻新。

There are granite blocks that are placed on top of the core limestone blocks.

花岗岩块放置在核心石灰石块的顶部。

Those core limestone blocks were already eroded when the granite blocks were put there.

当花岗岩块放置在那里时，那些核心石灰石块已经被侵蚀了。

Why?

为什么？

Because the granite blocks have actually been purposefully and deliberately cut to fit into the erosion marks on the, we believe, much older megalithic blocks there.

因为我们相信，花岗岩块实际上是有目的地和故意切割的，以适应那里更古老的巨石块上的侵蚀痕迹。

1:03:56 I think Giza is a very complicated site.

我认为吉萨是一个非常复杂的网站。

I would never seek to divorce the dynastic ancient Egyptians from the Great Pyramids.

我永远不会寻求将古埃及王朝与大金字塔分开。

They were closely involved in the construction of the Great Pyramids as we see them today.

他们密切参与了我们今天看到的大金字塔的建设。

But what I do suggest is that there were very low platforms on the Giza Plateau that are much older and that when we look at the three Great Pyramids, we are looking at a renovation and a restoration and a enhancement of much older structures that had existed on the Giza Plateau for a much longer period before that.

但我确实建议的是，吉萨高原上有一些非常低的平台，这些平台要古老得多，当我们看三座大金字塔时，我们正在考虑对之前在吉萨高原上存在了更长时间的更古老的结构进行翻修、修复和增强。

Actually, the Great Pyramid is built around a natural hill.

实际上，大金字塔是围绕一座天然山丘而建的。

That natural hill might’ve been seen as the original primeval mound to the ancient Egyptians.

这座天然山丘可能被古埃及人视为最初的原始土丘。

So the idea is that the Sphinx was there long before the pyramids, and the pyramids were built by the Egyptians to celebrate further an already holy place.

因此，人们的想法是，狮身人面像早在金字塔之前就已经存在，而金字塔是埃及人建造的，以进一步庆祝这个已经神圣的地方。

Yeah.

是的。

1:04:55 There were platforms in place where the pyramids stand, not the pyramids as we see them today, but the base of those pyramids was already in place at that time.

金字塔所在的地方有平台，不是我们今天看到的金字塔，但当时金字塔的底座已经就位。

What’s the evidence that the Egyptologists use to make the attributions that they do for the dating of the pyramids and the Sphinx?

埃及古物学家使用什么证据来确定金字塔和狮身人面像的年代？

Well, the three great pyramids of Giza are different from later pyramids.

嗯，吉萨三大金字塔与后来的金字塔不同。

1:05:16 This is another problem that I have with the whole thing is the story of pyramid building.

这是我对整个事情的另一个问题是金字塔建造的故事。

When did it really begin?

真正开始是什么时候？

The timeline that we get from Egyptology is the first pyramid is the pyramid of the Pharaoh, Djoser, the Step Pyramid at Saqqara, about 100 years or so before the Giza pyramids were built.

我们从埃及学得到的时间线是，第一座金字塔是法老左塞尔的金字塔，萨卡拉的阶梯金字塔，大约比吉萨金字塔建成早100年左右。

Then, we have this explosion in the fourth dynasty of true pyramids.

然后，我们看到了真正金字塔第四王朝的爆炸。

We have three of them attributed to a single Pharaoh, Sneferu, who built, supposedly, the pyramid at Meidum and the two pyramids at Dahshur, the Bent and the Red Pyramid.

我们认为其中三座金字塔出自一位法老斯尼夫鲁之手，据说他建造了梅杜姆的金字塔和代赫舒尔的两座金字塔，即本特金字塔和红色金字塔。

1:06:06 Then, within that same 100-year span, we have the Giza pyramids being built.

然后，在同样的 100 年时间内，我们建造了吉萨金字塔。

This is according to the Orthodox chronology.

这是根据东正教年表。

Then, suddenly, once the Giza project is finished, pyramid building goes into a massive slump in Ancient Egypt.

然后，突然间，一旦吉萨工程完成，古埃及的金字塔建筑就陷入了巨大的衰退。

The pyramids of the Fifth Dynasty are, frankly speaking, a mess outside.

第五王朝的金字塔，坦白说，外面一团糟。

They’re very inferior constructions.

它们是非常劣质的建筑。

You can hardly recognize them as pyramids at all.

你根本认不出它们是金字塔。

But what happens when you go inside them is you find that they’re extensively covered in hieroglyphs and imagery, repeating the name of the king who was supposedly buried in that place.

但当你进入它们内部时，你会发现它们被大量的象形文字和图像覆盖，重复着据说埋葬在那个地方的国王的名字。

Whereas, the Giza pyramids have no internal inscriptions whatsoever.

然而，吉萨金字塔没有任何内部铭文。

What we do have is one piece of graffiti about which there is some controversy.

我们所拥有的是一幅存在争议的涂鸦。

1:06:56 Basic statistics: it’s a 6 million-ton structure.

基本统计：这是一个600万吨的结构。

Each side is about 750 feet long.

每边长约 750 英尺。

It’s aligned almost perfectly to true north, south, east, and west within 3/60ths of a single degree, the 06ths, because degrees are divided into 60s.

它与真北、南、东、西几乎完全对齐，误差在 06 度的 3/60 之内，因为度数分为 60 度。

It’s the precision of the orientation and the absolute massive size of the thing plus its very complicated internal passageways that are involved in it.

这是物体的方向精度和绝对巨大的尺寸，再加上它所涉及的非常复杂的内部通道。

In the ninth century, the Great Pyramid still had its facing stones in place, but there was an Arab Caliph, Khalifa al-Mamun, who had already realized that other pyramids did have their entrances in the north face.

在九世纪，大金字塔的正面石头仍然存在，但阿拉伯哈里发哈利法·马蒙已经意识到其他金字塔的入口确实在北面。

Nobody knew where the entrance to the Great Pyramid was.

没有人知道大金字塔的入口在哪里。

But he figured if there’s an entrance to this thing, it’s going to be in the north face somewhere.

但他认为如果这东西有入口的话，那一定是在北壁的某个地方。

He put together a team of workers.

他组建了一支工人队伍。

They went in with sledgehammers.

他们拿着大锤进去了。

They started smashing where he thought would be the entrance.

他们开始砸碎他认为是入口的地方。

They cut their way into the Great Pyramid for a distance of maybe 100 feet.

他们切入了大金字塔，距离大约有 100 英尺。

Then, the hammering that they did dislodged something.

然后，他们的锤击使一些东西脱落了。

They heard a little bit further away, something big falling, and they realized there was a cavity there.

他们听到远处有什么东西掉了下来，他们意识到那里有一个空洞。

They started heading in that direction.

他们开始朝那个方向前进。

Then, they joined the internal passageway of the Great Pyramid, the descending and the ascending corridors that go up.

然后，他们进入了大金字塔的内部通道，下降和上升的走廊。

1:08:28 When you go up the ascending corridor, every one of the internal passageways in the Great Pyramid that people can walk in slopes at an angle of 26 degrees.

当你沿着上升走廊往上走时，大金字塔内部的每一条通道都可以让人们在26度角的斜坡上行走。

That’s interesting because the angle of slope of the exterior of the Great Pyramid is 52 degrees.

这很有趣，因为大金字塔外部的倾斜角是 52 度。

We know mathematicians were at work as well as geometers in the creation of the Great Pyramid.

我们知道数学家和几何学家都参与了大金字塔的建造。

1:08:50 If you go up the Grand Gallery, which is at the end of the so-called ascending corridor, and it’s above the so-called Queen’s Chamber…

如果你登上大画廊，它位于所谓的上升走廊的尽头，并且位于所谓的女王密室上方……

You go up the Grand Gallery.

你走上大画廊。

You’re eventually going to come to what is known as the King’s Chamber in which there is a sarcophagus.

你最终会来到所谓的国王密室，里面有一个石棺。

That sarcophagus is a little bit too big to have been got in through the narrow entrance passageway.

那石棺有点太大了，不可能从狭窄的入口通道进去。

It’s almost as though the so-called King’s Chamber was built around the sarcophagus, already in place.

就好像所谓的国王墓室是围绕石棺建造的，已经就位了。

1:09:17 Above the King’s Chamber are five other chambers.

国王墓室上方还有另外五个房间。

These are known as relieving chambers.

这些被称为减压室。

The theory was that they were built to relieve the pressure on the King’s Chamber of the weight of the monument.

理论上，它们的建造是为了减轻纪念碑重量对国王墓室的压力。

But I think what makes that theory dubious is the fact that even lower down, where more weight was involved, you have the Queen’s Chamber, and there are no such relieving chambers above that.

但我认为这个理论令人怀疑的事实是，即使在更底层，涉及更多重量的地方，也有女王密室，而上面没有这样的减压室。

1:09:38 In the top of these five chambers, a British adventurer and vandal called Howard Vyse, who dynamited his way into those chambers in the first place, allegedly found…

在这五个房间的顶部，一位名叫霍华德·维斯（Howard Vyse）的英国冒险家和破坏者，他首先用炸药进入了这些房间，据称发现了……

Well, he claims he found a piece of graffiti left by a work-gang naming the Pharaoh Khufu.

好吧，他声称他发现了一个名为法老胡夫的工作团伙留下的涂鸦。

It’s true.

这是真的。

I’ve been in that chamber, and there is the cartouche of Khufu there.

我去过那个房间，那里有胡夫的漩涡花饰。

Quite recognizable.

很有辨识度。

But the dispute around it is whether that is a genuine piece of graffiti dating from the Old Kingdom or whether Howard Vyse actually put it there himself because he was in desperate need of money at the time.

但围绕它的争议在于，这是否是来自古王国的真正涂鸦，或者霍华德·维斯是否真的因为当时急需钱而亲自把它放在那里。

I’m not sure what the answer to that question is.

我不确定这个问题的答案是什么。

But it’s one of the reasons that Egyptologists feel confident in saying that the pyramid is the work of Khufu.

但这也是埃及古物学家自信地说金字塔是胡夫的作品的原因之一。

Another is what is called the Wadi al-Jarf Papyri, where, on the Red Sea, the diary of an individual Merer was found.

另一个是所谓的 Wadi al-Jarf Papyri，在红海上发现了一位 Merer 的日记。

He talks about bringing highly polished limestone to the Great Pyramid.

他谈到将高度抛光的石灰石带到大金字塔。

It’s clear that what he’s talking about is the facing stones of the Great Pyramid.

很明显，他所说的是大金字塔的正面石头。

He’s not talking about the body of the Great Pyramid.

他说的不是大金字塔的主体。

He’s talking about the facing stones of the Great Pyramid during the reign of Khufu.

他说的是胡夫统治时期大金字塔的正面石头。

That’s another reason why the Great Pyramid is attributed to Khufu.

这也是大金字塔被认为是胡夫建造的另一个原因。

But I think that Khufu was undoubtedly involved in the Great Pyramid and in a big way.

但我认为胡夫无疑参与了大金字塔，而且参与程度很大。

But I think he was building upon and elaborating a much older structure.

但我认为他是在一个更古老的结构的基础上构建和阐述的。

1:11:09 I think the heart of that structure is the subterranean chamber, which is 100 feet vertically beneath the base of the Great Pyramid.

我认为该结构的核心是地下房间，位于大金字塔底部垂直下方 100 英尺处。

Anybody who suffers from claustrophobia will not enjoy being down there.

任何患有幽闭恐惧症的人都不会喜欢呆在那里。

You’ve got to go down a 26-degree sloping corridor until a distance of about 300 feet.

你必须沿着 26 度倾斜的走廊走，直到大约 300 英尺的距离。

It’s 100 feet vertically, but the slope means you’re going to walk a distance of…

它的垂直高度为 100 英尺，但坡度意味着您将步行一段距离……

Not walk.

不走路。

You’ve got to ape walk.

你必须像猿一样走路。

You’re almost going to have to crawl.

你几乎必须爬行。

I’ve learned from long experience that the best way to go down these corridors is actually backwards.

我从长期的经验中了解到，沿着这些走廊走的最好方法实际上是倒退。

If you go forward, you keep bumping your head on them because they’re only three feet five inches high.

如果你向前走，你就会不断地用头撞到它们，因为它们只有三英尺五英寸高。

You get down to the bottom.

你下降到底部。

You have a short horizontal passage, and then you get into the subterranean chamber.

你有一条很短的水平通道，然后你就进入了地下房间。

1:11:54 The theory of Egyptology is that this was supposed to be the burial place of Khufu, but after cutting out that 300-foot long, 26-degree sloping passage, a lot of which passes through bedrock, and having cut the subterranean chamber out of bedrock, gone to all that trouble, they decided they wouldn’t bury him there.

埃及古物学的理论是，这里本应是胡夫的埋葬地，但在凿出了那条 300 英尺长、26 度倾斜的通道（其中大部分穿过基岩）并从基岩中切出了地下房间之后，费尽千辛万苦，他们决定不把他埋在那里。

They built what’s now known as the Queen’s Chamber as his burial chamber.

他们建造了现在被称为女王墓室的地方作为他的墓室。

But then they decided that wouldn’t do either.

但后来他们决定这也行不通。

They then built the King’s chamber, and that’s where the Pharaoh is supposed to have been buried.

然后他们建造了国王的墓室，这就是法老应该埋葬的地方。

Those Arab raiders under Khalifa al-Mamun didn’t find anything in the Great Pyramid at all.

哈利法·马蒙领导下的那些阿拉伯袭击者在大金字塔中根本没有发现任何东西。

Your idea is that the Sphinx and maybe some aspects of the pyramid were much earlier.

你的想法是狮身人面像以及金字塔的某些方面可能要早得多。

1:12:31 Why that’s important is, in that case, it would be evidence of some transfer of technology-

为什么这很重要，因为在这种情况下，这将是某种技术转让的证据——

Yes.

是的。

…from a much older civilization.

……来自一个更古老的文明。

1:12:47 The idea is that during the Younger Dryas, most of that civilization was either destroyed or damaged, and they desperately scattered across the globe.

这个想法是，在新仙女木期，大部分文明要么被摧毁，要么被破坏，他们绝望地分散在全球各地。

Seeking refuge.

寻求庇护。

Seeking refuge and telling stories of maybe, one, the importance of the stars, their knowledge about the stars, and their knowledge about building and knowledge about navigation.

寻求庇护并讲述可能的故事，第一，星星的重要性，他们关于星星的知识，以及他们关于建筑的知识和关于导航的知识。

That’s roughly the idea.

大致的想法就是这样。

1:13:17 It’s interesting that the ancient Egyptians have a notion of an epoch that they call Zep Tepi, which is the first time.

有趣的是，古埃及人有一个时代的概念，他们称之为 Zep Tepi，这是第一次。

It means the first time.

就是第一次的意思。

This is when the gods walk the earth.

这是众神行走在地球上的时候。

This is when seven sages brought wisdom to Ancient Egypt.

就在这时，七位圣人为古埃及带来了智慧。

That is seen as the origin of ancient Egyptian civilization.

这被视为古埃及文明的起源。

There are king lists…

有国王名单……

by the ancient Egyptians themselves.

由古埃及人自己决定。

There are king lists that go back way beyond the First Dynasty/go back 30,000 years into the past in Ancient Egypt, considered to be entirely mythical by Egyptologists.

在古埃及，有一些国王名单可以追溯到第一王朝之前/追溯到 30,000 年前，埃及古物学家认为这完全是神话。

But nevertheless, it’s interesting that there’s that reference to remote time.

但尽管如此，有趣的是其中提到了遥远的时间。

1:14:02 Now, what you also have in Egypt are what might almost be described as secret societies.

现在，埃及也有几乎可以被描述为秘密社团的组织。

The followers of Horus are one of those specifically tasked with bringing forward the knowledge from the first time into later periods.

荷鲁斯的追随者是那些专门负责将最初的知识带入后期的人之一。

The souls of Pe and Nekhen are another one of these mysterious secret society groups who are possessors of knowledge that they transmit to the future.

Pe 和 Nekhen 的灵魂是这些神秘的秘密社团团体中的另一位，他们拥有将知识传送到未来的知识。

What I’m broadly suggesting is that those survivors of the Younger Dryas cataclysm, who settled in Giza may have been relatively small in number.

我的大致意思是，新仙女木灾难中定居吉萨的幸存者数量可能相对较少。

It’s interesting that they’re referred to in the Edfu Building Texts as seven sages because that repeats again and again.

有趣的是，埃德夫建筑文献中将他们称为七位圣人，因为这种说法一次又一次地重复。

It’s also in Mesopotamia.

它也在美索不达米亚。

1:14:51 It’s seven sages, seven Apkallu, who come out of the waters of the Persian Gulf and teach people all the skills of agriculture and of architecture and of astronomy.

这是七位圣人，七位圣贤，他们从波斯湾的水域中出来，教导人们所有农业、建筑和天文学的技能。

It’s found all around the world that there was a relatively small number of people who took refuge in Giza, who benefited from the survival skills of the hunter-foragers who lived at Giza at that time, and who also passed on their knowledge to those hunter-foragers.

在世界各地发现，有相对少数的人在吉萨避难，他们受益于当时居住在吉萨的狩猎采集者的生存技能，并将他们的知识传授给了那些狩猎采集者。

But it was not knowledge that was ready to be put into shape at that time.

但当时还没有准备好付诸实践的知识。

That knowledge was then preserved and kept and handled within very secretive groups that passed it down over thousands of years.

然后，这些知识在非常秘密的团体中被保存、保存和处理，并传承了数千年。

Finally, it burst into full form in the fourth dynasty in Ancient Egypt.

最终在古埃及第四王朝全面爆发。

1:15:38 The notion that knowledge might be transferred over thousands of years shouldn’t be absurd.

知识可能会在数千年的时间内转移的想法不应该是荒谬的。

We know, for example, in the case of ancient Israel…

例如，我们知道，就古代以色列而言……

It goes back to the time of Abraham, which is pretty much, I think, around 2000 BC.

这可以追溯到亚伯拉罕时代，我认为大约是公元前 2000 年左右。

Knowledge has been preserved from that time right up to the present day.

知识从那时起一直保存到今天。

If you can preserve knowledge for 4,000 years, you can probably preserve it for eight.

如果你可以将知识保存 4000 年，那么你可能可以将其保存八年。

Now, of course, the air bars on this are quite large, but if an advanced ice-age civilization existed, where do you think it was?

当然，现在这里的空气栅栏相当大，但如果存在先进的冰河时代文明，你认为它在哪里？

1:16:05 Where do you think we might find it one day if it existed, and how big do you think it might have been?

如果它存在的话，你认为有一天我们会在哪里找到它？你认为它有多大？

Well, this is where I’m often accused of presenting a God-of-the-gaps argument, that I think there was a lost civilization because there’s lots of the earth that archeologists have never looked at.

嗯，这就是我经常被指责提出“间隙之神”论点的地方，我认为存在一个失落的文明，因为地球上有很多考古学家从未见过的地方。

1:16:19 Of course, I’m not thinking that.

当然，我不这么认为。

These are very special gaps that I’m interested in.

这些是我感兴趣的非常特殊的差距。

I’m interested in them because of all the curiosities and the puzzlement that I’ve expressed to you before.

我对它们很感兴趣，因为我之前向你们表达过所有的好奇和困惑。

It’s not just because they’re gaps in the archeological record.

这不仅仅是因为它们是考古记录中的空白。

It’s because those gaps involve places that were very interesting places to live during the ice age.

这是因为这些差距涉及冰河时期非常有趣的居住地。

They specifically include the Sahara Desert, which was not a desert during the ice age and went through this warm wet period when it was very, very fertile.

其中特别包括撒哈拉沙漠，它在冰河时期并不是沙漠，而是经历了这个温暖潮湿的时期，当时它非常非常肥沃。

Certainly, some archeology has been done in the Sahara, but it’s fractional.

当然，撒哈拉沙漠已经进行了一些考古工作，但只是零星的。

It’s tiny.

它很小。

I think if we want to get into the true origins of Ancient Egyptian civilization, of the peoples of Ancient Egypt, we need to be looking in the Sahara for that.

我认为，如果我们想了解古埃及文明和古埃及人民的真正起源，我们需要在撒哈拉寻找答案。

1:17:19 The Amazon rainforest is another example of this.

亚马逊雨林是另一个例子。

I think the Sahara is about 9 million square kilometers.

我认为撒哈拉沙漠大约有900万平方公里。

The Amazon that’s left under dense canopy rainforest is about 5 million square kilometers, maybe closer to six.

茂密的树冠雨林下的亚马逊雨林面积约为 500 万平方公里，也许接近六平方公里。

Then, you have the continental shelves that were submerged by sea level rise at the end of the ice age.

然后，大陆架在冰河时代末期被海平面上升淹没。

Now, it’s well established that sea level rose by 400 feet, but it didn’t rise by 400 feet overnight.

现在，众所周知，海平面上升了 400 英尺，但海平面并不是一夜之间上升 400 英尺。

It came in dribs and drabs.

它是一点一点地来的。

There were periods of very rapid, quite significant sea level rise, and there were periods when the sea level was rising much more slowly.

有些时期海平面上升非常迅速、相当显着，有些时期海平面上升速度要慢得多。

That 400-foot sea level rise is spread out over a period of about 10,000 years.

海平面上升 400 英尺的时间间隔约为 10,000 年。

But there are episodes within it like meltwater pulse 1B like meltwater pulse 1A when the flooding was really immense.

但其中也有一些事件，例如融水脉冲 1B 和融水脉冲 1A，当时洪水确实非常严重。

How big do you think it might’ve been?

你认为它可能有多大？

1:18:12 Do you think it was spread across the globe?

你认为它传播到全球了吗？

If there were expert navigators, do you think they spread across the globe?

如果有专家航海家，你认为他们会遍布全球吗？

Well, the reason that I’m talking about the gaps is I don’t know where this civilization started or where it was based.

好吧，我之所以谈论这些差距，是因为我不知道这个文明从哪里开始，也不知道它的根基在哪里。

1:18:23 All I’m seeing are clues and mysteries and puzzles that intrigue me and which suggest to me that something is missing from our past.

我所看到的都是线索、神秘和谜题，它们引起了我的兴趣，并让我觉得我们的过去缺少了一些东西。

I’m not inclined to look for that missing something in, for example, Northern Europe, because Northern Europe was not a very nice place to live during the ice age.

我不想在北欧等地寻找缺失的东西，因为北欧在冰河时代并不是一个非常适合居住的地方。

I mean, nobody smart would build a civilization in Northern Europe 12,000 years ago.

我的意思是，没有哪个聪明人会在 12,000 年前在北欧建立文明。

It was a hideous, frozen wasteland.

那是一片可怕、冰冻的荒地。

The places to look are places that were hospitable and welcoming to human beings during the ice age.

值得一看的地方是冰河时期热情好客的地方。

That, of course, includes the coastlines that are now underwater.

当然，这包括现在水下的海岸线。

Of course, it includes the Sahara Desert.

当然，也包括撒哈拉沙漠。

Of course, it includes the Amazon rainforest as well.

当然，也包括亚马逊雨林。

All of these places, I think, are candidates for “my lost civilization.” Because I think, largely from those ancient maps, that it was a navigating seafaring civilization, I suspect that it wasn’t only in one place.

我认为所有这些地方都是“我失落的文明”的候选地。因为我认为，主要是从那些古代地图来看，这是一个航海文明，我怀疑它不仅仅存在于一个地方。

It was probably in a number of places.

它可能在很多地方。

1:19:31 Then, I can only speculate.

那么，我只能猜测。

Maybe there was a cultural value where it was felt that it was not appropriate to interfere with the lives of hunter-foragers at that time.

也许有一种文化价值认为，当时干涉狩猎采集者的生活是不合适的。

Maybe it was felt that they should keep their distance from them, just as, even today, there is a feeling that we shouldn’t be interfering too much with the uncontacted tribes in the Amazon rainforest.

也许人们觉得他们应该与他们保持距离，就像即使在今天，我们仍然有一种感觉，我们不应该过多干涉亚马逊雨林中与世隔绝的部落。

Although interestingly, some of those tribes are now using cell phones.

有趣的是，其中一些部落现在正在使用手机。

That possibility may have been there in the past.

这种可能性过去可能就存在过。

Only when we come to a global cataclysm does it become essential to have outreach and, actually, to take refuge amongst those hunter-forager populations.

只有当我们面临全球灾难时，才必须进行外展活动，并实际上在这些狩猎采集者群体中寻求庇护。

That is the hypothesis that I’m putting forward.

这就是我提出的假设。

I’m not claiming that it’s a fact.

我并不是说这是事实。

But, for me, it helps to explain the evidence.

但是，对我来说，这有助于解释证据。

That speaks to one of the challenges that archeologists provide to this idea, is that there is a lot of evidence of humans in the ice age and they appear to be all hunter-gatherers.

这说明考古学家对这一想法提出的挑战之一是，有大量证据表明冰河时代有人类存在，而且他们似乎都是狩猎采集者。

1:20:24 But, like you said, only a small percent of areas where humans have lived have been studied by archeologists.

但是，就像你说的，考古学家只研究了一小部分人类居住过的地区。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

1:20:46 Very tiny percent.

非常小的百分比。

Even a tiny percent of every archeological site has been studied by archeologists, too.

考古学家也对每个考古遗址的一小部分进行了研究。

Typically, one to 5% of any archeological site is excavated.

通常，任何考古遗址的 1% 到 5% 都会被挖掘。

I mean, that’s why Göbekli Tepe fills my mind with imagination, especially seeing it as a time capsule.

我的意思是，这就是为什么哥贝克力石阵让我充满想象力，尤其是把它视为一个时间胶囊。

1:20:55 It’s almost certain that there is places on earth we haven’t discovered that, once we do, even if it’s after the ice age, will change our view of human history.

几乎可以肯定的是，地球上还有一些我们尚未发现的地方，一旦我们发现了，即使是在冰河时代之后，也将改变我们对人类历史的看法。

What would be your dream thing to discover, like Göbekli Tepe, that says a definitive perturbation to our understanding of ice age history?

你梦想发现什么东西，比如哥贝克力石阵，它对我们对冰河时代历史的理解产生了明确的干扰？

Some archive.

一些存档。

1:21:29 Some hall of records.

一些记录大厅。

There’s both mystical associations with the Hall of Records at Giza from people like the Edgar Cayce organization.

埃德加·凯西组织等人与吉萨档案馆有着神秘的联系。

There’s also ancient Egyptian traditions which suggest that something was concealed beneath the Sphinx.

还有古埃及的传统表明，狮身人面像下面隐藏着一些东西。

This is not an idea that is alien to Ancient Egypt.

这对古埃及来说并不陌生。

It’s quite present in Ancient Egypt.

它在古埃及很常见。

So far, as far as I know, nobody has some dug down beneath the Sphinx.

到目前为止，据我所知，还没有人在狮身人面像下面挖过一些东西。

Of course, there’s very good reasons for that.

当然，这是有充分理由的。

You don’t want to damage the place too much.

你不想过度破坏这个地方。

But let’s call it the Hall of Records.

但我们姑且称其为“记录厅”吧。

I’d love to find that.

我很想找到那个。

1:22:09 But I think in a way that’s what Göbekli Tepe is.

但我认为在某种程度上这就是哥贝克力石阵。

Göbekli Tepe is a hall of records.

哥贝克力石阵是一个记录大厅。

It’s interesting that just as I’ve tried to outline, I hope reasonably clearly, that the three great pyramids of Giza match Orion’s belt in 10,500 BC just as the Sphinx matches Leo in 10,500 BC, 12,500 years ago or so.

有趣的是，正如我试图概述的那样，我希望相当清楚地表明，吉萨的三座大金字塔与公元前 10,500 年的猎户座腰带相匹配，就像狮身人面像在公元前 10,500 年，即 12,500 年前左右与狮子座相匹配。

Pillar 43 in Enclosure D at Göbekli Tepe contains what a number of researchers, myself included, regard as an astronomical diagram.

哥贝克力石阵 D 区的 43 号支柱包含许多研究人员（包括我自己）视为天文图的内容。

Martin Sweatman of Edinburgh University has brought forward the best work in this field.

爱丁堡大学的马丁·斯威特曼（Martin Sweatman）提出了该领域最好的工作。

But it was initially started by a gentleman called Paul Burley who noticed that one of the figures on Pillar 43 is a scorpion, very much like we represent the constellation of Scorpio today and that above it is a vulture with outstretched wings, which is in a posture very similar to the constellation that we call Sagittarius.

但它最初是由一位名叫保罗·伯利（Paul Burley）的绅士发起的，他注意到第43柱上的一个图形是一只蝎子，很像我们今天代表的天蝎座，而它的上方是一只张开翅膀的秃鹰，其姿势与我们所说的射手座非常相似。

On that outstretched wing is a circular object, and the suggestion is that it’s marking the time when the sun was at the center of the dark rift in the Milky Way at the summer solstice 12 and a half thousand years ago.

那个伸出的翅膀上有一个圆形物体，这表明它正在标记 1250 年前夏至时太阳位于银河系黑暗裂缝中心的时间。

That’s what it’s marking.

这就是它的标记。

1:23:28 It’s interesting that the same date can be deduced from Pillar…

有趣的是，可以从 Pillar 推断出相同的日期……

Of course, it’s controversial.

当然，这是有争议的。

Martin Sweatman’s ideas are by no means accepted by archeology.

马丁·斯威特曼的想法绝不被考古学所接受。

But he’s done very, very thorough, detailed, statistical work on this.

但他对此做了非常非常彻底、详细的统计工作。

I’m personally convinced.

我个人深信不疑。

We have a time capsule at Göbekli Tepe, which is memorializing a date that is at least 1,200 years before Göbekli Tepe was built if that dating of 11,600 years ago proves to be absolutely the oldest date as it is at present.

我们在哥贝克力石阵有一个时间胶囊，它纪念的日期至少比哥贝克力石阵建造早 1200 年，如果 11,600 年前的日期被证明绝对是目前最古老的日期的话。

The date memorialized on Pillar 43 is 12,800 years ago, the beginning of the Younger Dryas, the beginning of the impact event.

第 43 柱纪念的日期是 12,800 年前，即新仙女木期的开始，即撞击事件的开始。

1:24:09 Then, Giza does the same thing but in much larger scale.

然后，吉萨也做了同样的事情，但规模更大。

It uses massive megalithic architecture, which is very difficult to destroy, and a profound knowledge of astronomy to encode a date in a language that any culture which is sufficiently literate in astronomy will be able to decode.

它使用难以摧毁的巨大巨石建筑和深厚的天文学知识，以任何具有足够天文学素养的文化都能够解码的语言来编码日期。

We don’t have to have a script that we can’t read like we do with the Indus Valley civilization or with the Easter Island script.

我们不必像印度河流域文明或复活节岛文字那样，有一个我们无法阅读的文字。

We don’t have to have a script that can’t be interpreted.

我们不必有一个无法解释的脚本。

If you use astronomical language, then any astronomical literate civilization will be able to give you a date.

如果你使用天文语言，那么任何有天文文学的文明都能够给你一个日期。

1:24:48 Hoover Dam has a star map built into it.

胡佛水坝内置了一张星图。

That star map is part of an exhibition that was put there at the founding of the Hoover Dam.

该星图是胡佛水坝建成时举办的展览的一部分。

What it does is it freezes the sky above the Hoover Dam at the moment of its completion.

它的作用是在胡佛水坝竣工时冻结其上方的天空。

Oscar Hansen, the artist who created that piece said so specifically that this would be so that any future culture would be able to know the time of the dam’s construction.

创作该作品的艺术家奥斯卡汉森明确表示，这样任何未来的文化都能够知道大坝的建造时间。

You can use astronomy and architecture to memorialize a particular date.

您可以利用天文学和建筑来纪念特定的日期。

Quick pause.

快速暂停。

1:25:22 Bathroom break.

上厕所休息。

Sounds good.

听起来不错。

To me, the story that we’ve been talking about…

对我来说，我们一直在谈论的故事......

1:25:25 It is both exciting if the mainstream archeology narrative is correct and the one you’re constructing is correct.

如果主流考古学叙述是正确的并且你正在构建的叙述是正确的，那么这都是令人兴奋的。

Both are super interesting because the mainstream archeology perspective means that there’s something about the human mind from which the pyramids/these ideas spring naturally.

两者都非常有趣，因为主流考古学观点意味着金字塔/这些想法是从人类思想中自然产生的。

You place humans anywhere.

你把人类安置在任何地方。

You place them on Mars.

你把它们放在火星上。

It’s going to come out that way.

事情就会是这样的。

That’s an interesting story of human psychology that then becomes even more interesting when you evolve out of Africa with homo sapiens, how they think about the world.

这是一个关于人类心理学的有趣故事，当你与智人一起从非洲进化出来时，他们如何看待世界时，这个故事就会变得更加有趣。

That’s super interesting.

这太有趣了。

Then, if there’s an ancient civilization/advanced civilization that explains why there’s so many similar types of ideas that spread, that means that there’s so much undiscovered still about the spring of these ideas of civilization that come.

那么，如果有一个古老文明/先进文明可以解释为什么有如此多类似类型的思想在传播，那就意味着这些文明思想的源泉还有很多未被发现的地方。

To me, they’re both fascinating.

对我来说，他们都很迷人。

I don’t know why there’s so much infighting.

我不知道为什么会有这么多内讧。

I think it’s partly territorial.

我认为这部分是领土性的。

1:26:29 I cannot speak of all archeologists, but some archeologists feel very territorial about their profession.

我不能谈论所有考古学家，但有些考古学家对他们的职业非常有领地意识。

They do not feel happy about outsiders entering their realm, especially if those outsiders have a large platform.

他们对于外人进入他们的领域并不感到高兴，尤其是那些外人拥有一个大平台的时候。

I’ve found that the attacks on me by archeologists have increased step-by-step with the increase of my exposure.

我发现考古学家对我的攻击随着我接触的程度的增加而逐步增加。

I wasn’t very interesting to them when I just had one minor bestseller in 1992 with a book called The Sign and the Seal.

1992 年，当我刚刚出版了一本小畅销书《标志与印记》时，他们对我并不太感兴趣。

But when Fingerprints of the Gods was published in 1995 and became a global bestseller, then I started to attract their attention and appear to have been regarded as a threat to them.

但当1995年《诸神的指纹》出版并成为全球畅销书时，我开始引起他们的注意，似乎被视为对他们的威胁。

1:27:26 That is the case today.

今天就是这样。

That is why Ancient Apocalypse Season 1 was defined as the most dangerous show on Netflix.

这就是为什么《远古启示录》第一季被定义为 Netflix 上最危险的剧集。

It’s why the Society for American Archeology wrote an open letter to Netflix asking Netflix to reclassify the series of science fiction.

这就是为什么美国考古学会向 Netflix 写了一封公开信，要求 Netflix 重新分类该系列科幻小说。

It’s why they accused the series of antisemitism, misogyny, white supremacism, and…

这就是为什么他们指责一系列反犹太主义、厌女症、白人至上主义……

I don’t know, a whole bunch of other things like that, that have nothing to do with anything that’s in the series.

我不知道，还有一大堆类似的事情，与该系列中的任何内容无关。

It was like, “We must shut this down.

就像是，“我们必须关闭它。

This is so dangerous to us.” There are many more dangerous things in the world than a television series going on right now.

这对我们来说太危险了。”世界上还有很多比正在上演的电视剧更危险的事情。

But maybe it was seen as a danger to archeology, that this non-archeologist was in archeological terrain and being viewed and seen and read by large numbers of people.

但也许这被视为对考古学的危险，因为这位非考古学家处于考古领域，并被大量的人观看、看到和阅读。

Maybe that was part of the problem.

也许这就是问题的一部分。

1:28:28 Human nature being what it is, I noticed that two of my principal critics, John Hoopes from the University of Kansas and Flint Dibble, who’s now teaching at the University of Cardiff in Wales in the UK, are both people who like to have media exposure.

人性就是如此，我注意到我的两个主要批评者，堪萨斯大学的约翰·胡普斯和现在在英国威尔士卡迪夫大学任教的弗林特·迪布尔都是喜欢媒体曝光的人。

John Hoopes has just recently started a YouTube channel.

John Hoopes 最近刚刚开设了一个 YouTube 频道。

Flint Dibble has had one for quite a while.

弗林特·迪布尔（Flint Dibble）拥有这个已经有一段时间了。

A pretty small number of followers.

追随者数量相当少。

I think that they feel that they should be the ones who are getting the global attention and that it’s not right that I am and that the best way to stop that is to stop me, to shut me down, to get me canceled and basically requiring Netflix to relabel my series from a documentary to a science fiction, which is what they actually had the temerity to suggest to Netflix.

我认为他们觉得他们应该是受到全球关注的人，但我这样做是不对的，阻止这种情况的最好方法就是阻止我，让我关闭，让我被取消，基本上要求 Netflix 将我的剧集从纪录片重新贴上科幻小说的标签，而这正是他们大胆向 Netflix 提出的建议。

1:29:24 If that had gone through, if Netflix had listened to them, that would’ve effectively been the cancellation of my documentary series.

如果事情真的发生了，如果 Netflix 听取了他们的意见，那我的纪录片系列实际上就被取消了。

It would no longer have been ranked under documentaries.

它不再被列为纪录片。

It was a deliberate attempt to shut me down.

这是故意试图让我闭嘴。

I see that going on again and again, and it’s so unfortunate and so unnecessary.

我看到这种情况一次又一次地发生，这是非常不幸的，也是不必要的。

I’ve become very defensive towards archeology.

我对考古学变得非常防御。

I hit back.

我反击了。

After 30 years of these attacks on my work, I’m tired of it.

三十年来我的作品一直受到这些攻击，我对此感到厌倦。

I do defend myself.

我确实为自己辩护。

Sometimes, I’m perhaps over-vigorous in that defense.

有时，我的防守可能过于积极。

Maybe I was a little bit too strong in my critique of archeology in the first season of Ancient Apocalypse.

也许我在《古代启示录》第一季中对考古学的批评有点过于强烈了。

Maybe I should have been a bit gentler and a bit kinder.

也许我应该更温柔一点、更友善一点。

I’ve tried to reflect that in the second season and to bring also many more Indigenous voices into the second season, as well as the voices of many more archeologists.

我试图在第二季中反映这一点，并将更多原住民的声音以及更多考古学家的声音带入第二季。

Yeah.

是的。

1:30:16 In general, I got a chance to get a glimpse of the archeology community.

总的来说，我有机会一睹考古界的风采。

In archeology/in science, in general, I don’t have much patience for this arrogance or snark or dismissal of general human curiosity that I think your work inspires in people.

总的来说，在考古学/科学领域，我对这种傲慢、尖刻或对人类普遍好奇心的忽视没有太多耐心，我认为你的工作激发了人们的好奇心。

That’s why people like Ed Barnhart, who I recently had a conversation with…

这就是为什么像埃德·巴恩哈特这样的人，我最近和他交谈过......

He radiates kindness and curiosity as well.

他也散发着善良和好奇心。

It’s like that kind of approach to ideas, especially about human history, it inspires people.

就像这种对待思想的方式，尤其是关于人类历史的方式，它激励着人们。

Exactly.

确切地。

Inspires millions of people to ask questions.

激发数百万人提出问题。

Exactly.

确切地。

1:30:57 Exactly.

确切地。

I mean, that’s why you had Keanu Reeves on the new season.

我的意思是，这就是新赛季让基努·里维斯出演的原因。

He’s basically coming to the show from that same perspective of curiosity.

他基本上也是出于同样的好奇心来观看这个节目的。

Keanu is genuinely curious about the past and very, very interested in it.

基努对过去真的很好奇，而且非常非常感兴趣。

1:31:05 He’s bringing to it questions that everybody brings to the past.

他提出了每个人都会对过去提出的问题。

He’s speaking for every man in the series.

他代表了该系列中的每个人。

Given that, can you maybe steelman the case that archeologists make about this period that we’ve been talking about?

鉴于此，您能否向斯蒂尔曼讲述一下考古学家对我们一直在谈论的这一时期的情况？

1:31:17 Can make the case that that is indeed what happened; is it was hunter-gatherers for a long time, and then there was a cataclysm, a very difficult period in human history with the Younger Dryas, and that changed the environment and then led to the springing up of civilizations at different places on earth?

能够证明事实确实如此；是不是很长一段时间都是狩猎采集，然后发生了一场大灾难，人类历史上非常困难的时期，新仙女木时期，改变了环境，然后导致地球上不同地方出现了文明？

Can you make the case for that?

你能证明这一点吗？

No, I completely understand why that is the position of archeology because that’s what they’ve found.

不，我完全理解为什么这是考古学的立场，因为这就是他们所发现的。

1:31:50 Archeology is very much wishing to define itself as a science.

考古学非常希望将自己定义为一门科学。

The techniques of weighing, and measuring, and counting are very key to what archeology does.

称重、测量和计数技术对于考古学来说非常关键。

In what they’ve found and what they’ve studied around the world, they don’t see any traces of a lost civilization.

在他们在世界各地的发现和研究中，他们没有看到任何失落文明的痕迹。

We live in a very politically correct world today.

今天我们生活在一个政治上非常正确的世界。

The idea that some lost civilization brought knowledge to other cultures around the world is seen as almost racist or colonialist in some way.

某些失落的文明将知识带到世界各地的其他文化的想法在某种程度上被视为几乎是种族主义或殖民主义的。

It triggers that aspect as well.

它也触发了这个方面。

1:32:39 But basically, I think majority of archeologists are in complete good faith on this.

但基本上，我认为大多数考古学家对此都是完全有诚意的。

I don’t think that anybody’s really seeking to frame me.

我不认为有人真的想陷害我。

I think that what we are hearing from most archeologists…

我认为我们从大多数考古学家那里听到的……

some much more vicious than others.

有些比其他的更恶毒。

But what we’re hearing from most archeologists is this is what we found, and we don’t see evidence for a lost civilization in it.

但我们从大多数考古学家那里听到的是，这就是我们发现的东西，但我们没有在其中看到失落文明的证据。

To that, I…

对此，我...

1:33:00 …

……

civilization in it.

文明在其中。

And to that, I must reply, “Please look at the myths.

对此，我必须回答：“请看看这些神话。

Please consider the implications of the Younger Dryas.

请考虑新仙女木期的影响。

Please look at the ancient astronomy.

请看古代天文学。

Please look at those ancient maps and don’t just dismiss them and sneer at them.

请看看那些古老的地图，不要只是忽视它们并嘲笑它们。

And for God’s sake, please look more deeply at the parts of the world that were immensely habitable and attractive during the ice age and that have hardly been studied by archaeology at all, before you tell us that your theory is the only one that can possibly be correct.” In fact, it’s a very arrogant and silly position of archeology, because archaeological theories are always being overthrown.

看在上帝的份上，在你告诉我们你的理论是唯一可能正确的理论之前，请更深入地研究一下世界上那些在冰河时代非常适合居住和有吸引力、而且几乎没有被考古学研究过的地方。”事实上，这是考古学的一个非常傲慢和愚蠢的立场，因为考古学理论总是被推翻。

It can take years, it can take decades.

这可能需要几年，也可能需要几十年。

It took decades in the case of the Clovis-First hypothesis for the settlement of the Americas.

克洛维斯第一假说花了几十年的时间才在美洲定居。

But sooner or later a bad idea will be kicked out by a preponderance of evidence that that idea does not explain.

但迟早，一个糟糕的想法会被大量证据证明该想法无法解释而被淘汰。

If we can just look back at your debate with Flint Dibble on Joe Rogan Experience, what are some takeaways from that?

如果我们回顾一下您与弗林特·迪布尔关于乔·罗根经历的辩论，我们可以从中得到哪些收获？

1:33:57 What have you learned?

你学到了什么？

Maybe what are some things you like about Flint?

也许您喜欢弗林特的哪些方面？

You said that he’s one of your big critics, but what do you like about his ideas?

你说他是你的大批评者之一，但你喜欢他的哪些想法？

And what were you maybe bothered by?

你可能被什么困扰了？

First of all, just very recently, and it can be found on my YouTube channel and it’s signaled on my website, I have made a video.

首先，就在最近，可以在我的 YouTube 频道上找到它，并且在我的网站上标明，我制作了一个视频。

1:34:17 Runs about an hour, which looks at a series of statements that Flint made during the debate, which I was not prepared to answer.

大约一个小时，它考察了弗林特在辩论中发表的一系列声明，我不准备回答这些声明。

And it turns out that some of those statements are not correct.

事实证明，其中一些说法是不正确的。

The notion, for example, that there were three million shipwrecks that have been mapped, Flint actually uses the word “mapped.” Three million shipwrecks that have been mapped at one point in the debate.

例如，弗林特实际上使用了“已绘制地图”这个词，即已经绘制了三百万艘沉船的地图。在这场辩论中，曾绘制了三百万艘沉船的地图。

And I’ve put that clip into the video that I brought out.

我已将该剪辑放入我发布的视频中。

That is not a fact, that is an estimate, a UNESCO estimate.

这不是事实，而是估计，联合国教科文组织的估计。

And actually in the small print on one of the slides that he has on the screen, you can see the word “estimate,” but he never expresses that word out loud.

实际上，在他屏幕上的一张幻灯片的小字中，你可以看到“估计”这个词，但他从来没有大声表达过这个词。

So those who are listening to the podcast rather than watching it wouldn’t even have a chance to see that.

因此，那些正在听播客而不是观看播客的人甚至没有机会看到这一点。

And I, sitting there in the studio didn’t see that word estimate either.

而我，坐在工作室里也没有看到“估计”这个词。

1:35:19 And I didn’t know that.

我不知道这一点。

I thought, “My God.

我想：“天啊。

If Flint has a point here.

如果弗林特在这里有道理的话。

If there’d been three million shipwrecks found and mapped, if that’s the case, the absence of any shipwreck from a lost civilization of the ice age is a problem.” But then I discovered that it isn’t three million shipwrecks that have been mapped.

如果发现并绘制了三百万艘沉船残骸，如果是这样，那么冰河时代失落文明中没有任何沉船残骸就是一个问题。”但后来我发现绘制地图的并不是三百万艘沉船。

It’s much, much less than that.

比这个少得多。

And maybe it’s 250,000.

也许是 250,000。

Still a large number, but most of them from the last 1,000 years.

数量仍然很大，但其中大部分来自过去 1000 年。

And unfortunately, what Flint didn’t go into, and perhaps he should have shared with the audience …

不幸的是，弗林特没有提及，也许他应该与观众分享……

And again I go into this in the video, is that there is indisputable evidence that human beings were seafarers as much as 50 or 60,000 years ago.

我在视频中再次谈到这一点，有无可争议的证据表明人类早在 50 或 60,000 年前就是海员。

The peopling of Australia involved a relatively short 90 kilometers, 100-kilometer ocean voyage.

澳大利亚移民经历了相对较短的90公里、100公里的远洋航行。

But nevertheless, it was an ocean voyage.

但尽管如此，这仍然是一次远洋航行。

1:36:09 And it must have involved a large enough people, a large enough number of people to create a permanent population that wouldn’t go extinct.

而且它必须涉及足够多的人，足够多的人才能创造出不会灭绝的永久人口。

The settlement of Cyprus is the same thing.

塞浦路斯的定居也是同样的事情。

It was always an island even during the ice age.

即使在冰河时期，它也一直是一座岛屿。

And no ships have survived that speak to the settlement of Australia, and no ships have survived that speak to the settlement of Cyprus either.

没有任何与澳大利亚定居点有关的船只幸存下来，也没有与塞浦路斯定居点有关的船只幸存下来。

But that doesn’t mean that that thing didn’t happen.

但这并不意味着那件事没有发生。

I [inaudible 01:36:33] linger on this, because for me it was, the shipwrecks thing was convincing.

我[听不清 01:36:33] 对此犹豫不决，因为对我来说，沉船事件是令人信服的。

1:36:32 And then looking back, first of all, watching your video, but also just realizing the peopling of Australia part, that’s mind boggling.

然后回想起来，首先，观看你的视频，但也只是意识到澳大利亚人民的一部分，这是令人难以置信的。

50,000 years ago.

五万年前。

Just imagine being the person standing on the shore, looking out into the ocean.

想象一下，一个人站在岸边，眺望大海。

Standing on the shore of a harsh environment, looking out the ocean, a harsh environment and deciding that, “You know what?

站在恶劣环境的岸边，看着大海，恶劣的环境，然后决定，“你知道吗？

I’m going to go towards near certain death and explore-

我将走向濒临死亡并探索——

You don’t know what’s on the other side of that water.

你不知道水的另一边是什么。

1:37:03 You can’t see 90 kilometers-

你看不到90公里——

And humans did it.

人类做到了。

Yeah.

是的。

I love humans so much.

我非常爱人类。

Again, it’s that urge to explore.

再说一次，这就是探索的冲动。

1:37:09 And I suggest that it probably began with a few pioneers who made the journey there and back.

我认为这可能是由一些来来往往的先驱者开始的。

They ventured into the water.

他们冒险进入水中。

They definitely had boats.

他们肯定有船。

And lo and behold, after a two- or three-day voyage, they ended up on a coastline.

你瞧，经过两三天的航行，他们终于到达了海岸线。

You’re an individual.

你是一个个体。

You’ve got by relatively straightforward island- hopping, where each island is within sight of each other as far as Timor.

您可以进行相对简单的跳岛游，每个岛屿都在彼此的视线范围内，远至帝汶岛。

And when you get to Timor, suddenly you can’t island hop anymore.

当你到达帝汶时，突然你就不能再跳岛游了。

There’s an expansive ocean that you can’t see across.

那里有一片广阔的海洋，你看不到对面。

But that urge to explore, that curiosity, that is central to the human condition would undoubtedly have led some adventurous individuals to want to find out more and even be willing to risk their lives.

但这种探索的冲动、这种对人类状况至关重要的好奇心无疑会导致一些富有冒险精神的人想要了解更多，甚至愿意冒着生命危险。

And that first reconnoitering of what lay beyond that strait would’ve undoubtedly been undertaken by very few individuals.

毫无疑问，对海峡以外地区的首次侦察是由极少数人进行的。

Not enough to create a permanent population in Australia, but when they came back with the good news that there’s a whole land there, that’s the land that geographers call Sahul, which just as Sunda was the Ice age Indonesian and Malaysian Peninsula all joined together into one landmass.

不足以在澳大利亚创造永久人口，但当他们带着好消息回来时，那里有一整片土地，那就是地理学家称之为萨胡尔的土地，就像巽他在冰河时代一样，印度尼西亚和马来西亚半岛都连接在一起形成了一块陆地。

1:38:25 So Sahul was New Guinea joined to Australia.

所以萨胡尔是新几内亚加入澳大利亚的。

So they would’ve made landfall in New Guinea.

所以他们会在新几内亚登陆。

And then they think, “Well, here is this vast open, incredible land.

然后他们想：“好吧，这里是一片广阔、开放、令人难以置信的土地。

We need to bring more people here.” And that would’ve involved larger craft.

我们需要带更多人来这里。”这将涉及更大的飞船。

You need to bring people with resources and you need to bring enough of them, both men and women in order to produce a population that will not rapidly become extinct.

你需要带来有资源的人，并且需要带来足够的男人和女人，以便产生不会迅速灭绝的人口。

And it’s the same in Cyprus.

塞浦路斯也是如此。

There the work that’s been done suggests very strongly that we’re looking at planned migrations of groups of people in excess of 1,000 at a time, bringing animals with them.

那里已经完成的工作强烈表明，我们正在考虑一次超过 1,000 人的群体迁徙，并携带动物。

And this certainly would’ve involved multiple boats and boats of a significant size.

这肯定会涉及多艘船和相当大的船。

And there’s no archaeological evidence of those boats?

没有这些船的考古证据吗？

None whatsoever.

一点也没有。

1:39:18 The oldest boat that’s ever been found in the world is the Dokos shipwreck off Greece, which is around 5,000 years old if, I recall correctly.

世界上发现的最古老的船只是希腊附近的 Dokos 沉船，如果我没记错的话，它已有大约 5000 年的历史。

So everything that makes a boat is lost at the time?

那么造船的一切在当时都消失了吗？

Yes.

是的。

1:39:30 Boats can be preserved under certain circumstances.

在某些情况下可以保存船只。

There’s a wreck at the bottom of the Black Sea, almost two miles deep.

黑海海底有一艘沉船，近两英里深。

I didn’t know the Black Sea was that deep.

我不知道黑海有那么深。

But there’s a wreck and there’s no oxygen down there that is more than 2000 years old and is still in pretty much perfect condition.

但那里有一艘沉船，下面没有氧气，它已经有 2000 多年的历史了，而且仍然处于几乎完美的状态。

But in other conditions, the structure of the ship evaporates.

但在其他条件下，船的结构会消失。

Sometimes what you’re left with is the cargo of the ship.

有时你留下的只是船上的货物。

And you could say there was a ship that sank here, but the ship itself has gone.

你可以说这里沉没了一艘船，但船本身已经消失了。

The fact is we know that our ancestors were seafarers as much as 50,000 years ago.

事实上，我们知道五万年前我们的祖先就是海员。

And no ship has survived to testify to that, yet we accept that they were.

虽然没有一艘幸存的船只可以证明这一点，但我们承认它们确实存在。

Do you think you one day we’ll find a ship that’s 10, 20, 30, 40, 50,000 years old?

你认为有一天我们会找到一艘有 10、20、30、40、50,000 年历史的船吗？

It’s not impossible.

这并非不可能。

1:40:17 I think it’s quite unlikely, given the very thin survival of ships the further back you go in time, with the oldest, as I say, being about 6,000 years old now.

我认为这不太可能，因为时间越久远，幸存下来的船只就越少，正如我所说，最古老的船只已有大约 6000 年的历史。

And then the other thing to take into account is the Younger Dryas event itself and the cataclysmic circumstances of that event.

另一件需要考虑的事情是新仙女木事件本身以及该事件的灾难性情况。

And the roiling of the seas that would’ve taken place then, how much would’ve survived in a boat accident at that time, would’ve survived for thousands of years afterwards, I’m not sure.

那时发生的大海的翻腾，当时的一场船难中，有多少东西会幸存下来，会在之后的几千年里幸存下来，我不确定。

But I don’t give up hope, it’s possible.

但我不放弃希望，这是可能的。

Okay.

好的。

1:40:55 So that’s back to the three million shipwrecks.

这又回到了三百万艘沉船事件。

Yeah.

是的。

So what’s your takeaway from that debate?

那么您从这场辩论中得到了什么结论呢？

Well, my takeaway from that debate is that I should have been better prepared and I should have been less angry.

好吧，我从这场辩论中得到的结论是，我应该做好更好的准备，并且应该少一些愤怒。

1:41:01 I have to say that Flint had really disturbed me with these constant snide, not quite exact, references to racism and white supremacism in my work.

我不得不说，弗林特在我的作品中不断提到种族主义和白人至上主义，这让我感到非常不安。

I detest such things, and to have those labels stuck on me …

我讨厌这样的事情，也讨厌那些标签贴在我身上……

He’s always avoided taking direct responsibility, pretty much always avoided.

他总是避免承担直接责任，几乎总是避免。

There’s one example that I include in the video I’ve made, where he really hasn’t successfully avoided it.

我在制作的视频中举了一个例子，他确实没有成功避免这一点。

But in most cases he’s trying to say that I rely on sources that were racist, but that he’s not saying that I myself am a racist.

但在大多数情况下，他试图说我依赖种族主义的消息来源，但他并不是说我自己是种族主义者。

1:41:48 But the end result of those statements is that people all around the world came to the conclusion that Graham Hancock is a racist and a white supremacist.

但这些言论的最终结果是世界各地的人们得出结论：格雷厄姆·汉考克是种族主义者和白人至上主义者。

And that really got under my skin and it really upset me.

这真的让我很恼火，让我很不安。

And I felt angry about it and I felt that I was there to defend Ancient Apocalypse, season one, whereas in fact, what I was there to do was to listen to a series of lectures where an archaeologist tells me what archaeologists have found.

我对此感到愤怒，我觉得我在那里是为了捍卫《古代启示录》第一季，而事实上，我在那里做的是听一系列讲座，其中一位考古学家告诉我考古学家的发现。

And that somehow I’m to deduce that from what they have found, they’re not going to find anything else.

我会以某种方式从他们所发现的东西中推断出，他们不会发现任何其他东西。

At least not anything to do with the lost civilization.

至少与失落的文明没有任何关系。

Listen, I feel you.

听着，我感觉到你。

1:42:23 I’ve seen the intensity of the attacks and the whole racism label is the one that can get under your skin.

我已经看到了攻击的强度，整个种族主义标签会让你感到愤怒。

And it’s a toolbox that’s been prevalent over the past, let’s say decade, maybe a little bit more, as a method of cancellation.

这是一个在过去很流行的工具箱，比如说十年，也许更久一点，作为一种取消的方法。

When a person is the opposite of racist, very often it’s hilarious to watch.

当一个人与种族主义者相反时，通常看起来很搞笑。

But it can get under your skin, especially when you have certain dynamics that happen on the internet, where it seeps into a Wikipedia page and then other people read that Wikipedia page and you get to hear it from friends, “Oh, I didn’t know you’re …

但它可能会让你感到不安，尤其是当你在互联网上发生某些动态时，它会渗透到维基百科页面，然后其他人阅读该维基百科页面，你会从朋友那里听到，“哦，我不知道你是......

” whatever.

” 无论如何。

And you realize that Wikipedia description of who you are is actually has a lot of power, not by people that know you well, but people that just are learning about you for the first time-

你意识到维基百科对你是谁的描述实际上有很大的力量，不是由那些熟悉你的人，而是那些第一次了解你的人——

Definitely.

绝对是。

And they can really start to annoy you and get onto your skin, when people are indirectly injecting …

当人们间接注射时，它们真的会开始惹恼您并进入您的皮肤......

1:43:12 They’re writing articles about you.

他们正在写关于你的文章。

They can then be cited by Wikipedia.

然后维基百科可以引用它们。

It can really bother a person who’s actually trying to do good science, or just trying to inspire people with different ideas.

它真的会困扰一个真正想做好的科学研究的人，或者只是想激励人们提出不同想法的人。

I felt that my work was being deliberately misrepresented and I felt that I, as a human being, was being insulted and wronged in ways that are deeply hurtful.

我觉得我的作品被故意歪曲，我觉得我作为一个人，受到了深深伤害的侮辱和冤屈。

1:43:30 My wife and I have six children between us and we have nine grandchildren.

我和我的妻子有六个孩子，还有九个孙子。

And of those nine grandchildren, seven are of mixed race.

而这九个孙子里，有七个是混血儿。

And this is my family, and these are kids who are going to grow up and read Wikipedia and learn from reading Wikipedia that Grandpa was some kind of racist.

这是我的家人，这些孩子将长大并阅读维基百科，并通过阅读维基百科了解到祖父是某种种族主义者。

This is a personal issue for me, and I’m afraid I carried that personal anger into the debate and it made me less effective than I should have been.

这对我来说是一个个人问题，我担心我把个人的愤怒带入了辩论中，这让我的效率降低了。

But ultimately I do want to pay tribute to Flint.

但最终我确实想向弗林特致敬。

He is an excellent debater.

他是一位出色的辩手。

He’s got a very sharp mind.

他有一个非常敏锐的头脑。

He’s a very clever man and he’s very fast on his feet.

他是一个非常聪明的人，而且脚步非常快。

And I recognize that.

我认识到这一点。

1:44:22 I was definitely up against a superior debater in that debate.

在那场辩论中，我肯定会面对一位更优秀的辩手。

I’m not sure that I have those debating skills and I certainly didn’t have them on that particular day.

我不确定我是否具备这些辩论技巧，而且那天我当然没有。

I also admire about Flint something else, which is that he was willing to be there.

我还钦佩弗林特的另一件事，那就是他愿意在那里。

Most archaeologists don’t want to talk to me at all.

大多数考古学家根本不想和我说话。

They want to insult me from the sidelines.

他们想在场外侮辱我。

They want to make sure that Wikipedia keeps on calling me a pseudo-archaeologist, or a purveyor of pseudo-archaeological theories.

他们希望确保维基百科继续称我为伪考古学家，或伪考古理论的传播者。

They want to make sure that the hints of racism are there, but they actually don’t want to sit down and confront me.

他们想确保种族主义的迹象存在，但实际上他们不想坐下来面对我。

1:44:54 At least Flint was willing to do that and I’m grateful to him for that.

至少弗林特愿意这样做，我对此很感激他。

And I think in that sense it is an important encounter between people with, let’s say, an alternative view of history and those with the very much mainstream view of history that archaeology gives us.

我认为从这个意义上说，这是具有另类历史观的人们与具有考古学赋予我们的非常主流的历史观的人们之间的一次重要相遇。

And he’s also a very determined character.

而且他也是一个非常坚定的角色。

He doesn’t give up.

他不放弃。

So all of those things about him I admire and respect.

所以关于他的所有这些事情我都很钦佩和尊重。

But, I think he fought dirty during the debate, and I’ve said exactly why in this video that I now have up on YouTube.

但是，我认为他在辩论中进行了肮脏的斗争，我已经在 YouTube 上的这段视频中确切地说明了原因。

To say a positive thing that I enjoyed, I think towards the end and him speaking about agriculture was pretty interesting.

说一件我喜欢的积极的事情，我认为最后他谈论农业非常有趣。

1:45:26 So the techniques of archaeology are pretty interesting, where you can get some insights through the fog of time about what people were doing, how they were living.

所以考古学的技术非常有趣，你可以透过时间的迷雾了解人们在做什么、如何生活。

That’s pretty interesting.

这很有趣。

It’s very interesting.

这很有趣。

1:45:47 It’s a very important discipline.

这是一门非常重要的学科。

And I’ve said many times before, publicly, I couldn’t do any of my work without the work that archaeologists do.

我之前曾多次公开说过，如果没有考古学家的工作，我就无法完成我的任何工作。

I emphasize very strongly in this video that I don’t study what archaeologists study.

我在这段视频中非常强调，我不研究考古学家研究的东西。

But nevertheless, the data that archaeologists have generated over the last century or so has been incredibly valuable to me in the work that I do.

但尽管如此，考古学家在上个世纪左右产生的数据对我所做的工作来说非常有价值。

But, when I look at the Great Sphinx and the studies of archaeology saying that this is the work of the pharaoh Khafre, despite the absence of any single contemporary inscription that describes it to Khafre, and in fact the presence of other inscriptions that say that it was already there in the time of Khufu, I am not looking at what egyptologists study.

但是，当我看到大狮身人面像和考古学研究表明这是法老哈夫拉的作品时，尽管没有任何单一的当代铭文向哈夫拉描述它，而且事实上存在其他铭文表明它在胡夫时代就已经存在，我并不是在看埃及学家的研究。

They just dismiss all of that and lock into the Khafre connection.

他们只是忽略了所有这些并锁定了哈夫拉的联系。

1:46:35 At Gobekli Tepe, I’m not really looking at what archaeologists look at, I’m looking at the alignments of the megaliths and how they seem to track precession of the star Sirius over a period of time.

在哥贝克力石阵，我并没有真正关注考古学家所关注的内容，而是关注巨石的排列以及它们在一段时间内如何追踪天狼星的进动。

Archaeologists aren’t interested in any of that.

考古学家对这些都不感兴趣。

So I value and respect archeology.

所以我重视并尊重考古学。

I think it’s an incredible tool for investigating our past, but I wish archaeologists would bring a slightly gentler frame of mind to it and a slightly opener perspective.

我认为它是调查我们过去的一个令人难以置信的工具，但我希望考古学家能给它带来稍微温和的心态和稍微开放的视角。

And also that archaeologists would be willing to trust the general public to make up their own minds.

而且考古学家愿意相信公众会做出自己的决定。

It’s as though certain archaeologists are afraid of the public being presented with an alternative point of view, which they regard as quote, unquote, “dangerous,” because they somehow underestimate the intelligence of the general public and think the general public are just going to accept that.

就好像某些考古学家害怕向公众提出另一种观点，他们认为这种观点是“危险的”，因为他们在某种程度上低估了公众的智力，并认为公众只会接受这一点。

1:47:24 Actually by condemning those alternative point of view, archaeologists make it much more likely that the general public will accept those alternative point of view, because there is a great distrust of experts in our society today.

实际上，通过谴责这些替代观点，考古学家使公众更有可能接受这些替代观点，因为当今社会对专家存在极大的不信任。

And behaving in a snobbish arrogant way, we archaeologists are the only people who are really qualified to speak about the past and anybody else who speaks about the past is dangerous.

而且我们考古学家的行为方式势利傲慢，是唯一真正有资格谈论过去的人，而任何谈论过去的人都是危险的。

That actually is not helpful to archaeology in the long term.

从长远来看，这实际上对考古学没有帮助。

There could be a much more positive and a much more cooperative relationship.

可能会有更加积极、更加合作的关系。

And I can see that relationship with a gentleman like Ed Barnhart.

我可以看到与埃德·巴恩哈特这样的绅士的关系。

Was very much the case with archaeologist Martti Parssinen from the University of Helsinki and with geographer Alcio Arranzi, Brazilian geographer.

赫尔辛基大学的考古学家 Martti Parssinen 和巴西地理学家 Alcio Arranzi 的情况就是如此。

Very, very senior figure who I worked with in the Amazon for season two of Ancient Apocalypse, looking at these astonishing earthworks that have emerged from the Amazon jungle and which more and more are now being found with LiDAR.

在《古代启示录》第二季中，我在亚马逊与一位非常非常资深的人物一起工作，观察这些从亚马逊丛林中出现的令人惊叹的土方工程，现在越来越多的土方工程正在通过激光雷达被发现。

Indeed, we found some of them ourselves with LiDAR while we were there.

事实上，我们在那里时用激光雷达发现了其中一些。

Yeah.

是的。

1:48:26 That was an incredible part of the show that I got a chance to preview.

这是演出中令人难以置信的部分，我有机会预览。

It’s like there’s all this earthworks.

就像有所有这些土方工程一样。

Yeah.

是的。

The traces of things built on the ground that probably you can only really appreciate when you look from up above.

那些建在地面上的痕迹，可能只有从高处看才能真正欣赏到。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

So the idea that they built stuff that you can only appreciate when viewed from up above means they had a very deep relationship with the sky.

因此，他们建造的东西只有从高处观看才能欣赏，这一想法意味着他们与天空有着非常深厚的关系。

With the sky.

与天空。

1:48:55 And a very good knowledge of geometry as well, because these are geometrical structures and some of them even seem to incorporate geometrical games, almost like squaring the circle.

对几何也有很好的了解，因为这些都是几何结构，其中一些甚至似乎包含几何游戏，几乎就像化圆为方。

It’s not quite that, but you have a lovely square earthwork with a lovely circle earthwork right in the middle of it.

不完全是这样，但是你有一个可爱的方形土方，中间有一个可爱的圆形土方。

Whatever else they were, they were geometers.

不管他们是什么，他们都是几何学家。

They were not just builders of fantastically huge earthworks that nobody expected in the Amazon.

他们不仅仅是亚马逊地区无人预料到的巨大土方工程的建造者。

Not just builders of cities that we now know existed in the Amazon.

不仅仅是我们现在所知的亚马逊地区的城市建设者。

But, that they were astronomers and mathematicians as well.

但是，他们也是天文学家和数学家。

Everything we’re talking about is so full of mystery.

我们谈论的一切都充满神秘。

1:49:32 It’s just fascinating, especially the farther back we go.

这真是令人着迷，尤其是我们走得更远。

That’s what I love about the past, is the mystery that’s there.

这就是我喜欢过去的原因，那就是那里的神秘。

1:49:36 And that’s another thing that I regret about some archeologists is that their mission seems to drain all mystery out of the past, to suck it dry like some vampire sucking the blood out of the past and to reduce it to a series of numbers that appear to be scientific.

我对一些考古学家感到遗憾的另一件事是，他们的任务似乎是排空过去的所有神秘面纱，就像吸血鬼从过去吸干血液一样，将其吸干，并将其简化为一系列看似科学的数字。

I think that’s most unfortunate.

我认为这是最不幸的。

The past is deeply mysterious.

过去是非常神秘的。

The whole story of life on earth is deeply mysterious.

地球上生命的整个故事非常神秘。

We were talking about the timeline of human beings, but if you go back to the formation of the earth itself, if I’ve got the figures right, it’s about four-and-a-half billion years ago that the Earth supposedly formed.

我们谈论的是人类的时间线，但如果你回到地球本身的形成，如果我的数字正确的话，地球应该是在大约四亿五亿年前形成的。

It was then incredibly hot and inhospitable to life for the next several hundred million years.

在接下来的几亿年里，这里的气候极其炎热，不适合生命生存。

1:50:29 But it was actually Francis Crick who pointed out something odd, that within 100 million years of the earth being cool enough to support life, there’s bacterial life all over the planet.

但实际上弗朗西斯·克里克（Francis Crick）指出了一些奇怪的事情，即在地球冷却到足以支持生命存在的一亿年内，地球上到处都有细菌生命。

And Crick wrote a book called Life Itself that was published in 1981, and he suggested that life had been brought here by a process of panspermia.

克里克于 1981 年出版了一本名为《生命本身》的书，他提出生命是通过有生源论的过程来到这里的。

Now that’s an idea that’s around in circulation that comets may carry bacteria, which can seed life on planets.

现在流传的一个观点是，彗星可能携带细菌，这些细菌可以在行星上播下生命的种子。

But, Crick actually in Life Itself was talking about directed panspermia.

但是，克里克实际上在《生命本身》中谈论的是定向生精论。

He envisaged …

他设想……

This is Crick, not me.

这是克里克，不是我。

He envisaged an alien civilization far away across the galaxy, which faced extinction.

他设想了一个遥远的银河系外星文明，该文明面临灭绝。

Perhaps a supernova was going to go off in the neighborhood.

也许一颗超新星将在附近爆炸。

1:51:22 They were highly advanced.

他们非常先进。

Their first thought it might’ve been, “Let’s get ourselves off the planet and go and populate some other planet,” but the distances of interstellar space were so great.

他们的第一个想法可能是，“让我们离开这个星球，去其他星球定居吧”，但星际空间的距离是如此之远。

So their second thought was, “Let’s preserve our DNA.

所以他们的第二个想法是，“让我们保存我们的 DNA。

Let’s put genetically engineered bacteria into cryogenic chambers and fire them off into the universe in all directions.” And bottom line of Crick’s theory in Life Itself is one of those cryogenic containers containing bacterial life from another solar system crashed into the early Earth.

让我们将基因工程细菌放入低温室中，然后将它们从各个方向发射到宇宙中。”克里克在《生命本身》中的理论的底线是，那些含有来自另一个太阳系的细菌生命的低温容器之一坠入了早期地球。

And that’s why life began so suddenly here on Earth.

这就是生命在地球上如此突然开始的原因。

If we as a human civilization continue, I think that is a one way to create backups of us elsewhere in the universe, given the space is to do a life gun and shoot it everywhere and it just plants.

如果我们作为一个人类文明继续下去，我认为这是在宇宙其他地方创建我们的备份的一种方法，因为空间是做一把救生枪，向各处射击，它只是植物。

1:51:58 And you hope that whatever is the magic that makes up human consciousness …

你希望无论构成人类意识的魔法是什么……

And if that magic was already there in the initial DNA of the bacteria-

如果这种魔力已经存在于细菌的最初 DNA 中——

The potential for that magic is there.

这种魔法的潜力就在那里。

The potential is there.

潜力就在那里。

And evolutionary forces will work upon it in different ways in different environments.

进化的力量会在不同的环境中以不同的方式发挥作用。

1:52:30 But the potential is there.

但潜力是存在的。

Yes.

是的。

It’s something that we would do.

这是我们会做的事情。

If we were facing a complete extinction of life on planet Earth, a major global effort would be made to preserve it somehow.

如果我们面临地球上生命的彻底灭绝，全球将做出重大努力以某种方式保护它。

And that might well include firing off cryogenic chambers into the universe and hoping that some of them would land somewhere hospitable.

这很可能包括向宇宙发射低温舱，并希望其中一些能够降落在适宜的地方。

And as you were mentioning, there’s just so many interesting mysteries along the way here.

正如你所提到的，这里有很多有趣的谜团。

1:52:56 For example, I think like three billion years it was single-cell organisms.

例如，我认为大约有三十亿年它是单细胞生物体。

So it seems like life was pretty good for single-cell organisms, that there was no need for multicellularity that for animals, for any of this kind of stuff.

因此，对于单细胞生物来说，生命似乎相当美好，对于动物或任何此类生物来说，不需要多细胞生物。

So why is that?

那么这是为什么呢？

It seems like you could adapt much better if you are a more complicated organism.

如果你是一个更复杂的有机体，你似乎可以更好地适应。

It took a really long time to take that leap.

实现这一飞跃花了很长时间。

Is it because it’s really hard to do?

是因为真的很难做到吗？

And what was the forcing function to do that kind of leap?

实现这种飞跃的强迫函数是什么？

1:53:33 And the same.

也是一样的。

For us to be selfish and self-obsessed for us humans, what was the magic leap to Homo sapiens from the other hominids?

对于我们人类来说，自私、自我迷恋，从其他原始人类到智人的神奇飞跃是什么？

And why did Homo sapiens win out against the Neanderthals and the other competitors?

为什么智人能战胜尼安德特人和其他竞争对手？

Why are they not around anymore?

为什么他们不再在身边了？

So those are all fascinating mysteries and it feels like the more we propose radical ideas about our past and take it seriously and explore the more we’ll be able to figure out that puzzle that leads all the way back to Homo sapiens and maybe all the way back to the origin of life on Earth.

所以这些都是令人着迷的谜团，感觉我们越多地对我们的过去提出激进的想法，认真对待它并探索它，我们就越能找出这个谜题，一直回到智人，也许一直回到地球生命的起源。

Yeah.

是的。

1:54:13 Yeah.

是的。

I think that Homo sapiens is the tail end of a very long, deep series of mysteries that goes back right to the beginning of life on this planet.

我认为智人是一系列漫长而深刻的谜团的尾部，这些谜团可以追溯到这个星球上生命的起源。

And probably long before actually, because this planet is part of the universe.

实际上可能很久以前，因为这个星球是宇宙的一部分。

And God knows what else is out there in the universe.

天知道宇宙中还有什么。

Why do you think Homo sapiens evolved?

你认为智人为何进化？

1:54:31 What was the magic thing?

到底有什么神奇的东西呢？

There’s a bunch of theories about fire leading to meat, to cooking, which can fuel the brain.

有很多关于火会导致肉类和烹饪的理论，火可以为大脑提供能量。

That’s one.

这是一个。

The other is social interaction.

另一个是社交。

We’re able to use our imagination to construct ideas and share those ideas and tell great stories and that is somehow an evolutionary advantage.

我们能够利用我们的想象力来构建想法并分享这些想法并讲述精彩的故事，这在某种程度上是一种进化优势。

Do you have any favorite conceptions of-

你有什么最喜欢的概念吗-

Well, it’s interesting.

嗯，这很有趣。

1:54:57 There’s no doubt that anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals coexisted in Europe for at least 10,000 years, probably more than that.

毫无疑问，解剖学上的现代人类和尼安德特人在欧洲共存了至少一万年，甚至可能更久。

And yet one of the popular views is that anatomically modern humans wiped out the Neanderthals, that we killed them off.

然而，一种流行的观点是，解剖学上的现代人类消灭了尼安德特人，是我们杀死了他们。

But, at the same time we were into breeding with the Neanderthals.

但是，与此同时，我们开始与尼安德特人进行繁殖。

In a sense, the Neanderthals are not gone.

从某种意义上说，尼安德特人并没有消失。

They’re still within us today.

他们今天仍然存在于我们之中。

We are part Neanderthal.

我们有部分尼安德特人的血统。

There’s another theory that I’ve read about.

我读过另一种理论。

There is some evidence that Neanderthals were cannibals, that there was ritual cannibalism took place amongst Neanderthals and particularly the eating of human brains.

有一些证据表明尼安德特人是食人者，尼安德特人之间存在食人仪式，特别是吃人脑。

And this can cause Kuru, which can kill off whole populations.

这可能会导致库鲁病，从而导致整个人口死亡。

That’s another suggestion of why the Neanderthals died out.

这是尼安德特人灭绝的另一个原因。

1:55:50 There’s lots of possibilities that have been put forward.

已经提出了很多可能性。

Maybe we just out-competed them.

也许我们只是在竞争中胜过他们。

Maybe anatomically modern humans had some brain connections that they didn’t have.

也许从解剖学上来说，现代人类拥有一些他们所没有的大脑连接。

Even though the Neanderthal brain was bigger than the brain of anatomically modern human beings, as the old saying goes, size isn’t everything.

尽管尼安德特人的大脑比解剖学上现代人类的大脑更大，但正如一句老话所说，大小并不代表一切。

Maybe we just had a more compact, more efficient brain.

也许我们只是拥有一个更紧凑、更高效的大脑。

The fact of the matter is that Neanderthals and Denisovans did not survive the rise of Homo sapiens.

事实上，尼安德特人和丹尼索瓦人并没有在智人的崛起中幸存下来。

For our discussion, though, what is interesting is all the hominids seem to be explorers.

不过，对于我们的讨论来说，有趣的是所有原始人类似乎都是探险家。

Yes.

是的。

They spread.

它们传播开来。

1:56:26 I didn’t know this.

我不知道这一点。

The fact that Homo erectus was all over the planet more than a million years ago is testament to that.

一百万多年前，直立人遍布地球的事实就证明了这一点。

1:56:28 And I do think that exploration urge is fundamental to humanity.

我确实认为探索欲望是人类的根本。

And I would like to say that’s what I think I’m doing.

我想说这就是我认为我正在做的事情。

I’m exercising my urge to explore the past in my own way, making my own path and defining my own route.

我正在发挥自己的冲动，以自己的方式探索过去，开辟自己的道路，定义自己的路线。

That’s the leap from non-human to human.

这就是从非人类到人类的飞跃。

1:56:53 One of the things you’ve discussed is your idea of what was the leap to human civilization?

您讨论的其中一件事是您对人类文明飞跃的看法是什么？

What is the driver?

司机是什么？

What is the inspiration for humans to form civilizations?

人类形成文明的灵感是什么？

And for you, that’s shamanism.

对你来说，这就是萨满教。

Definitely.

确实。

Can you explain what that means?

你能解释一下这是什么意思吗？

I think that shamanism is the origin of everything of value in humanity.

我认为萨满教是人类一切有价值的事物的起源。

1:57:14 I think it was the earliest form of science.

我认为这是科学的最早形式。

When I spend time with shamans in the Amazon, I observe people who are constantly experimenting with plants in a very scientific way.

当我在亚马逊与萨满相处时，我观察到人们不断以非常科学的方式进行植物实验。

They’re always trying a pinch of this and a pinch of that in different forms, for example, of the ayahuasca brew, to see if it enhances it or makes it different in any way.

他们总是尝试不同形式的一小撮这个和一小撮那个，例如死藤水酿造，看看它是否会增强它或使其在任何方面有所不同。

The invention of curare is a remarkable scientific feat, which is entirely down to shamans in the Amazon.

箭毒的发明是一项了不起的科学壮举，这完全归功于亚马逊的萨满巫师。

They are the scientists of the hunter-forager state of society and they were the ancient leaders of human civilization.

他们是狩猎采集社会的科学家，是人类文明的古代领袖。

1:58:09 So I think all civilization arises out of shamanism.

所以我认为一切文明都源于萨满教。

And shamanism is a naturally scientific endeavor, where experimentation is undertaken an exploration and investigation of the environment around us.

萨满教是一种自然的科学努力，通过实验对我们周围的环境进行探索和调查。

And what I’m suggesting is that one group, perhaps more than one group, went a bit further than other groups did, and used that study of the skies and developed navigational techniques and we’re able to sail and explore the Earth.

我的建议是，一个团体，也许不止一个团体，比其他团体走得更远，利用对天空的研究并开发了导航技术，我们能够航行和探索地球。

But that ultimately what lies behind it is the same curiosity and investigative skill that shamans are still using in the Amazon to this day.

但归根结底，其背后的好奇心和调查技能至今仍在亚马逊地区被萨满们使用。

And I do see them as scientists in a very proper use of the word.

我确实认为他们是科学家，并且非常正确地使用了这个词。

But do you think something like ayahuasca was a part of that process?

但你认为死藤水之类的东西是这个过程的一部分吗？

Yes.

是的。

1:59:02 Ayahuasca is the result of shamanistic investigation of what’s available in the Amazon.

死藤水是萨满教对亚马逊地区现有资源进行调查的结果。

Of course, ayahuasca is all the fad in Western industrialized societies today.

当然，死藤水是当今西方工业化社会的时尚。

And some people see it as a miracle cure for all kinds of ailments and problems.

有些人认为它是治疗各种疾病和问题的灵丹妙药。

And perhaps it is, perhaps it can be in certain ways.

也许是这样，也许在某些方面是这样。

The ayahuasca itself is not an Amazonian word.

死藤水本身并不是亚马逊语单词。

It comes from the Quechuan language and it means the vine of souls or the vine of the dead.

它来自盖丘亚语，意思是灵魂的藤蔓或死亡的藤蔓。

But the ayahuasca vine is only one of two principle ingredients in the ayahuasca brew.

但死藤水藤只是死藤水酿造的两种主要成分之一。

And the other ingredient are leaves that contain dimethyltryptamine.

另一种成分是含有二甲基色胺的叶子。

And there are two sources of that.

这有两个来源。

One is a bush called Psychotria viridis, that’s its botanical name.

其中一种是一种叫做Psychotria viridis的灌木，这是它的植物学名称。

They call it Chacruna in the Amazon.

在亚马逊地区，他们称之为 Chacruna。

And its leaves are rich in dimethyltryptamine DMT, which is arguably the most powerful psychedelic known to science.

而且它的叶子富含二甲基色胺DMT，这可以说是科学界已知的最强大的迷幻剂。

And the other source comes from another vine, Diplopterys cabrerana, which the leaves of that vine also contain DMT.

另一个来源来自另一种藤本植物 Diplopterys cabrerana，该藤本植物的叶子也含有 DMT。

So the ayahuasca vine on its own is not going to give you a visionary journey.

因此，死藤水藤本身不会给你带来梦幻般的旅程。

And the leaves that contain DMT on their own, whether they come from Diplopterys or whether they come from Chacruna, are not going to give you a visionary journey.

而本身含有 DMT 的叶子，无论它们来自双翅目还是来自查克鲁纳，都不会给你带来梦幻般的旅程。

And the reason they’re not going to give you the visionary journey, is because of the enzyme monoamine oxidase in the gut that shuts down DMT when absorbed orally.

它们之所以不会给你带来梦幻般的旅程，是因为肠道中的单胺氧化酶在口服吸收时会关闭 DMT。

Basically, DMT is not accessible orally, unless you combine it with a monoamine oxidase inhibitor.

基本上，DMT 不能口服，除非将其与单胺氧化酶抑制剂结合使用。

And that’s what I mean when I’m talking about science in the Amazon, because there’s so many tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands different species of plants and trees in the Amazon.

这就是我在谈论亚马逊地区的科学时的意思，因为亚马逊地区有数以万计、数十万种不同的植物和树木。

And they’ve gone around and they’ve found just two or three of them that put together can produce these extraordinary visionary experiences.

他们四处寻找，发现只要将其中的两三个组合在一起就可以产生这些非凡的幻想体验。

Just imagine the number of plants they had to have eaten, consumed and smoked or all kinds of combinations to arrive at that.

想象一下他们必须吃掉、消费和熏制或各种组合才能达到这一目标的植物数量。

Exactly.

确切地。

2:01:07 Exactly.

确切地。

To realize that this is something very special.

意识到这是非常特别的事情。

And then to use the principles there to find another form of it.

然后利用其中的原理找到它的另一种形式。

So ayahuasca is the form that is made with the ayahuasca vine and the leaves of the Chacruna plant.

所以死藤水是由死藤水藤和 Chacruna 植物的叶子制成的形式。

But Yage is made from the ayahuasca vine and the leaves of another vine the ploparis caapiano, which contain not only, which is the DMT that everybody’s pretty much familiar with these days, but also 5-MeO-DMT.

但雅歌是由死藤水藤和另一种藤蔓植物 ploparis caapiano 的叶子制成的，其中不仅含有大家都非常熟悉的 DMT，还含有 5-MeO-DMT。

And the Yage experience, which I have also had, in my view is more intense and more powerful almost to the point of being overwhelming than the ayahuasca experience.

而我也有过的雅歌体验，在我看来比死藤水体验更强烈、更强大，几乎达到了压倒性的程度。

But what the result of this sophisticated chemistry that we find taking place here is a brew which is hideous to drink.

但我们发现这里发生的这种复杂化学反应的结果是一种很难喝的啤酒。

The taste, I find it quite repulsive.

味道，我觉得很恶心。

I almost retched just smelling it in the cup.

光是闻到杯子里的味道我就差点吐了。

2:02:15 But then unleashes these extraordinary experiences.

但随后释放出这些非凡的体验。

And it isn’t just pretty visuals.

这不仅仅是漂亮的视觉效果。

It’s the sense of encounters with sentient others, that there are sentient beings, that somehow we are surrounded by a realm of sentience that is not normally accessible to us.

这是与有感知力的他人相遇的感觉，有感知力的存在，不知何故，我们被一个我们通常无法接触到的感知领域所包围。

And that what the ayahuasca brew and certain other psychedelics, like some psilocybin mushrooms in a high enough dose can do it as well.

死藤水和某些其他致幻剂（例如足够高剂量的裸盖菇素蘑菇）也可以做到这一点。

LSD can do it.

LSD可以做到。

But Ayahuasca is the master in this of lowering the veil to what appears to be a seamlessly convincing other realm, other world.

但死藤水是这方面的大师，它揭开了面纱，让我们看到一个无缝的、令人信服的另一个领域、另一个世界。

And of course the hard line, rational scientists will say that’s just all fantasies of your brain.

当然，强硬路线，理性的科学家会说这只是你大脑的幻想。

But I don’t think we fully understand,

但我认为我们还没有完全理解，

2:03:03 Or even close to understanding exactly what consciousness is.

甚至接近准确地理解意识是什么。

And I remain open to two possibilities that consciousness is generated by the brain, is made by the brain in the way that a factory makes cars.

我对两种可能性持开放态度：意识是由大脑产生的，是由大脑以工厂制造汽车的方式制造的。

But I also am open to the possibility that the brain is a receiver of consciousness, just as a television set is the receiver of television signals.

但我也对大脑是意识接收器的可能性持开放态度，就像电视机是电视信号的接收器一样。

And that if that is the case, then we locked into the physical realm.

如果是这样的话，那么我们就锁定了物理领域。

We need our everyday alert, problem-solving state of consciousness, and that’s the state of consciousness that western civilization values and highly encourages.

我们需要每天保持警觉、解决问题的意识状态，而这正是西方文明所重视和高度鼓励的意识状态。

But these other states of consciousness that allow us to access alternative realities are possibly more important.

但这些让我们能够接触替代现实的其他意识状态可能更重要。

It may be apocryphal, but it was reported after Francis Crick’s role-

这可能是杜撰的，但在弗朗西斯·克里克饰演这个角色后有报道称——

2:04:00 But it was reported after Francis Crick’s role and his Nobel Prize for the discovery of the double helix that he finally got it under the influence of LSD.

但据报道，在弗朗西斯·克里克出演该角色并因发现双螺旋而获得诺贝尔奖后，他最终在LSD的影响下获得了双螺旋。

There’s the classic example of Kary Mullis and the polymerase chain reaction.

有凯里·穆利斯 (Kary Mullis) 和聚合酶链式反应的经典例子。

He said he got that under the influence of LSD.

他说他是在迷幻药的影响下才出现这种情况的。

So the notion that the alert problem-solving state of consciousness is the only valuable state of consciousness is disproved by valuable experiences that people have had in a visionary state.

因此，“警觉的解决问题的意识状态是唯一有价值的意识状态”的观点被人们在有远见的状态下获得的宝贵经验所推翻。

But the question that remains unresolved is those entities that we encounter, and not everybody encounters them, and you’re certainly not going to encounter them on every ayahuasca trip.

但仍未解决的问题是我们遇到的那些实体，并不是每个人都会遇到它们，而且你肯定不会在每次死藤水之旅中遇到它们。

There are ayahuasca journeys where nothing seems to happen.

有些死藤水之旅似乎什么也没发生。

I suspect something does happen, but it happens at a subconscious level.

我怀疑确实发生了一些事情，但它发生在潜意识层面。

I know that shamans in the Amazon regard those trips where actually you don’t see visions as amongst the most valuable, and they say you are learning stuff that you’re not remembering, but you’re learning it anyway.

我知道亚马逊的萨满认为那些实际上看不到幻象的旅行是最有价值的，他们说你正在学习你不记得的东西，但无论如何你都在学习它。

2:05:02 These sentient others that are encountered, what are they?

遇到的这些有情众生，他们是什么？

Are they just figments of our brain on drugs or are we actually gaining access to a parallel reality, which is inhabited by consciousness which is in a non-physical form?

它们只是我们大脑在药物作用下的虚构，还是我们实际上获得了进入平行现实的机会，其中居住着非物质形式的意识？

And I’m equally open to that idea.

我同样对这个想法持开放态度。

I think that may be what is going on here with ayahuasca.

我想这可能就是死藤水的情况。

2:05:25 But the other thing is that there is a presence within the ayahuasca brew, and she is present both in ayahuasca and in yachay.

但另一件事是，死藤水酿造中存在她的存在，而且她同时存在于死藤水和亚查伊中。

And that’s one of the reasons why the shamans say that actually the master of the process is the ayahuasca vine, not the leaves.

这就是为什么萨满说实际上这个过程的主人是死藤水藤，而不是叶子的原因之一。

It’s as though the vine has harnessed the leaves to gain access to human consciousness.

就好像藤蔓利用叶子来进入人类意识一样。

And there, if you have sufficient exposure to ayahuasca or yachay, you drink it enough times, I’ve had maybe 75 or 80 journeys with ayahuasca, you definitely start to feel an intelligent presence with a definite personality, which I interpret as feminine, and which most people in the West interpret it as feminine and they call her Mother Ayahuasca.

在那里，如果你充分接触死藤水或yachay，喝足够多次，我大概有过75或80次死藤水之旅，你肯定会开始感受到一种具有明确个性的聪明存在，我将其解释为女性化，而大多数西方人将其视为女性化，他们称她为死藤​​水之母。

There are some tribes in the Amazon who interpret the spirit of ayahuasca as male, but in all cases, that spirit is seen as a teacher.

亚马逊地区的一些部落将死藤水的精神解释为男性，但在所有情况下，这种精神都被视为老师。

That’s fundamentally what ayahuasca is.

这就是死藤水的本质。

It’s a teacher.

这是一位老师。

And it teaches moral lessons.

它还教授道德课程。

2:06:28 And that’s fascinating, that a mixture of two plants should cause us to reflect on our own behavior and how it may have hurt and damaged and affected others and fill us with a powerful wish not to repeat that negative behavior again in the future.

令人着迷的是，两种植物的混合物应该让我们反思自己的行为，以及它如何伤害、损害和影响他人，并使我们强烈希望将来不再重复这种消极行为。

The more baggage you carry in your life, the harder the beating the ayahuasca is going to give you, until it forces you to confront and take responsibility for your own behavior.

你生活中背负的包袱越多，死藤水对你的打击就越重，直到它迫使你面对自己的行为并为自己的行为负责。

And that is an extraordinary thing to come from a plant brew in that way.

以这种方式从植物中酿造出来的东西是一件非同寻常的事情。

2:07:02 And I think yes, I think ayahuasca is the most powerful of all the plant medicines for accessing these mysterious realms.

我想是的，我认为死藤水是进入这些神秘领域的所有植物药物中最强大的。

But there’s no doubt you can access them.

但毫无疑问你可以访问它们。

They’re all tryptamines.

它们都是色胺。

They’re all related to one another in one way.

它们都以一种方式相互关联。

You can access them through LSD and you certainly can access them through psilocyb mushrooms as well in large enough dose.

你可以通过 LSD 来获取它们，当然也可以通过足够大剂量的裸盖菇来获取它们。

Both possibilities, as you describe, are interesting.

正如您所描述的，这两种可能性都很有趣。

2:07:24 And to me, they’re kind of akin to each other.

对我来说，他们有点相似。

I wonder what the limit of the brain’s capacity is to create imaginary worlds and treat them seriously and make them real, and in those worlds, explore and have real moral, deep brainstorming sessions with those entities.

我想知道大脑的能力极限是创造想象的世界并认真对待它们并使它们成为现实，并在这些世界中探索并与这些实体进行真正的道德、深入的头脑风暴会议。

So it’s almost like the power of the human mind to imagine taken to its limit.

所以这几乎就像人类思维的想象能力达到了极限。

It is.

这是。

2:08:01 And the curious thing is that the same iconography…

奇怪的是，相同的图像......

People paint their visions after ayahuasca sessions.

人们在死藤水治疗后描绘他们的愿景。

People were painting in Europe in the cave of Lascaux, for example, and of course they had access to psilocyb mushrooms in prehistoric Europe.

例如，人们在欧洲的拉斯科洞穴中绘画，当然，他们在史前欧洲就可以获得裸盖菇。

There’s a remarkable commonality in the imagery that is painted.

所绘制的图像有一个显着的共性。

2:08:26 I like to give credit where credit is due, and there are two names that need to be mentioned here.

我喜欢在值得赞扬的地方给予赞扬，这里有两个名字需要提及。

One is the late, great Terence McKenna and his book Food of the Gods, where he proposed the idea very strongly that it was our ancestral encounters with psychedelics that made us fully human.

其中之一是已故的伟大的特伦斯·麦肯纳（Terence McKenna）和他的《众神的食物》一书，他在书中非常强烈地提出了这样一个想法：正是我们祖先与迷幻剂的接触才使我们成为完全的人类。

That’s what switched on the modern human mind.

这就是开启现代人类思维的原因。

2:08:47 And very much the same idea began to be explored a bit earlier by Professor David Lewis-Williams at the University of Witwatersrand in South Africa, fabulous book called The Mind in the Cave, where he is again arguing that these astonishing similarities in cave art and rock art all around the world can only be properly explained by people in deeply altered states of consciousness attempting to remember, when they return to a normal everyday state of consciousness, attempting to remember their visions and document them on permanent media like the wall of a cave.

南非威特沃特斯兰德大学的大卫·刘易斯-威廉姆斯教授在更早的时候就开始探索同样的想法，他在一本名为《洞穴中的心灵》的精彩著作中再次提出，世界各地的洞穴艺术和岩石艺术中这些惊人的相似之处只能由处于深刻改变的意识状态中的人们试图正确地解释，当他们回到正常的日常意识状态时，试图记住他们的愿景并将其记录在像洞穴墙壁这样的永久介质上。

2:09:22 So, typically you get a lot of geometric patterns, but you also got entities.

因此，通常您会得到很多几何图案，但也会得到实体。

And those entities often are therianthropes, part animal, part human in form.

这些实体通常是兽人，在形态上一半是动物，一半是人类。

Might have the head of a wolf and the body of a human being, might have the head of a bird and the body of a human being, and so on and so forth.

可能有狼的头和人的身体，可能有鸟的头和人的身体，等等。

And that they communicate with us in the visionary state.

他们在有远见的状态下与我们交流。

2:09:45 Interestingly, although this sounds like woo-woo, and it is an area that most scientists would steer clear of at risk of their careers, there is very serious work now being done at Imperial College in London and at the University of California at San Diego, where volunteers are being given extended DMT.

有趣的是，尽管这听起来像是“呜呜”，而且大多数科学家都会冒着职业风险而避开这个领域，但伦敦帝国理工学院和加州大学圣地亚哥分校目前正在开展非常认真的工作，为志愿者提供延长的 DMT。

There’s a new technology, DMTx, where the DMT is fed directly into the bloodstream by drip, and it’s possible to keep the individual in the peak DMT state.

有一种新技术，DMTx，通过点滴的方式将DMT直接输送到血液中，可以使个体保持在峰值DMT状态。

Which normally when you smoke or vape DMT, you’re looking, if you’re lucky, at 10 minutes, or if you’re unlucky, if it’s a bad journey, because those 10 minutes can seem like forever.

通常，当你吸烟或吸 DMT 时，如果你幸运的话，你会在 10 分钟内寻找，或者如果你不幸的话，如果这是一次糟糕的旅程，因为这 10 分钟看起来像是永远。

But with DMTx, with the drip-feeding of DMT into the bloodstream, these volunteers actually could be kept in the peak state for hours.

但有了DMTx，通过将DMT滴注到血液中，这些志愿者实际上可以保持几个小时的巅峰状态。

2:10:40 And unlike LSD where you rapidly build up tolerance, nobody ever builds up tolerance to DMT.

与 LSD 不同的是，LSD 会迅速产生耐受性，但没有人会对 DMT 产生耐受性。

It always hits you with the same power.

它总是以同样的力量击中你。

Even if you took it yesterday and the day before and you’re taking it tomorrow as well, it’s still going to have that same power.

即使您昨天和前天服用了它，明天也服用了它，它仍然具有相同的功效。

There’s no tolerance there.

那里没有宽容。

So that’s how they can use that lack of tolerance to keep volunteers in this state.

这就是他们如何利用缺乏宽容来让志愿者保持这种状态。

2:10:59 And then when they debrief those volunteers…

然后当他们向志愿者汇报情况时……

They’re also putting them in MRI scanners and looking at what’s happening in the brain.

他们还将它们放入核磁共振扫描仪中，观察大脑中发生的情况。

But when they debrief them, they’re all talking about encounters with sentient others.

但当他们向他们汇报情况时，他们都在谈论与有感知力的其他人的遭遇。

There’s even a group now called Sentient Others, where volunteers are now exchanging their experiences.

现在甚至有一个名为“Sentient Others”的团体，志愿者们正在其中交流他们的经验。

They weren’t allowed to do so at the beginning of the experiment, but now that most of them have left it, they’re exchanging their experiences, and it’s all about encounters with sentient others who wish to teach them moral lessons.

在实验开始时他们不被允许这样做，但现在他们中的大多数人已经离开了，他们正在交流他们的经验，而这一切都是为了与那些希望给他们上道德课的有知觉的其他人的遭遇。

2:11:28 Now, to me, that’s wild.

现在，对我来说，这太疯狂了。

What is going on here?

这是怎么回事？

How do we account for this?

我们如何解释这一点？

Yeah, I get the notion of hallucinations and brightly colored visuals, but the moral lessons that come with it, those are very odd.

是的，我明白了幻觉和色彩鲜艳的视觉效果的概念，但随之而来的道德教训却非常奇怪。

Yeah.

是的。

2:11:43 And would you say that the reason that could give birth to a civilization, is it because such visions can help create myths, and especially religious myths, that would be a cohesive thing for a large group of people to get around?

你是否会说，之所以能够诞生文明，是因为这样的愿景可以帮助创造神话，特别是宗教神话，这对于一大群人来说是一个有凝聚力的东西吗？

Yes.

是的。

2:12:02 And can help us to be better members of our own community.

并可以帮助我们成为自己社区中更好的成员。

Right, with moral lessons.

是的，有道德教训。

Yeah.

是的。

2:12:06 More contributing members of our community.

我们社区中有更多有贡献的成员。

More caring, more nurturing members of our community.

更加关心、更加培养我们社区的成员。

That’s got to be good for any community.

这对任何社区来说都一定有好处。

I’ve said this a dozen times, but I’ll say it again.

这句话我已经说过十几次了，但我还要再说一遍。

If I had the power to do so, I would make it a law, an absolute law, that anybody running for a powerful political position, particularly if that position is president or head of state in any kind of way, that that person has to undergo the ayahuasca ordeal first.

如果我有权力这样做，我会让它成为一条法律，一条绝对的法律，任何竞选强大政治职位的人，特别是如果该职位是总统或任何形式的国家元首，那个人必须首先经历死藤水的考验。

They have to have 10 or 12 sessions of ayahuasca as a condition for applying for the job.

他们必须接受 10 或 12 次死藤水治疗，作为申请这份工作的条件。

I suspect that most who had had those experiences wouldn’t want to apply for the job anymore.

我怀疑大多数有过这些经历的人都不想再申请这份工作了。

They would want to live a different kind of life.

他们想要过一种不同的生活。

And those who did want to carry on being a leader of a nation would be very different people from the people who are leading the nations of the earth into chaos and destruction today.

那些确实想继续成为一个国家领导人的人将与今天带领地球上的国家陷入混乱和毁灭的人们截然不同。

Yeah, they would be doing it for the right reasons.

是的，他们这样做是有正当理由的。

2:13:07 I mentioned to you, I recently interviewed Donald Trump, and I actually brought up this same idea that it would be a much better world if most of Congress and most politicians would take some form of psychedelic, at the very least.

我向你提到过，我最近采访了唐纳德·特朗普，实际上我也提出了同样的想法，如果大多数国会议员和大多数政客至少服用某种形式的迷幻剂，世界会变得更好。

Yeah.

是的。

2:13:21 I have no doubt that it would be a better world.

我毫不怀疑这将是一个更美好的世界。

I mean, this raises an interesting point, which is the role of government in controlling our consciousness.

我的意思是，这提出了一个有趣的观点，那就是政府在控制我们的意识方面的作用。

And in my opinion, the so-called War on Drugs is one of the fundamental abuses of human rights that have been undertaken in the past 60 years.

在我看来，所谓的禁毒战争是过去 60 年来对人权的根本侵犯之一。

It should be a Republican issue.

这应该是共和党的问题。

If I understand the Republican Party correctly, the Republican Party believes in individual freedom for adults as much as possible, and particularly the freedom to make choices over their own bodies.

如果我对共和党的理解正确的话，共和党尽可能地相信成年人的个人自由，特别是对自己身体做出选择的自由。

2:13:55 But in the case of even cannabis, I know, this is one of the great things that’s happening in America.

但我知道，即使是大麻，这也是美国正在发生的伟大事情之一。

It’s happening state by state where cannabis is being legalized and that draconian hand of government is being taken off the back of people who are consuming a medicine that is far less harmful than alcohol, which is glorified in our society.

这种情况正在一个又一个州发生，大麻正在合法化，政府对那些服用比酒精危害小得多的药物的人们的严厉控制正在被解除，而酒精在我们的社会中受到了推崇。

2:14:19 We cannot say that we are free if we allow our government to dictate to us what experiences we may or may not have in our inner consciousness, while doing no harm to others.

如果我们允许政府决定我们内心意识中可能有或没有哪些经历，同时不伤害他人，我们就不能说我们是自由的。

And the point there is we already have a whole raft of laws that deal with us when we do harm to others.

关键是我们已经有一整套法律来处理我们伤害他人的行为。

Do we really need laws that tell us what we may or may not experience in the inner sanctum of our own consciousness?

我们真的需要法律来告诉我们在我们自己意识的内部密室中可能会或不会经历什么吗？

I think it’s a fundamental violation of adult sovereignty.

我认为这是对成人主权的根本侵犯。

And we would have much less drug problems if these drugs were all legalized and made available to people without shaming them, without punishing them in any way, but just part of normal social life.

如果这些毒品都合法化并提供给人们而不羞辱他们，不以任何方式惩罚他们，而只是正常社会生活的一部分，那么我们的毒品问题就会少得多。

And then you could be sure that you were getting good product rather than really shitty product, which has been cut with all sorts of other things.

然后你就可以确定你得到的是好的产品，而不是那些被其他各种东西削减的真正糟糕的产品。

2:15:10 Ultimately, the way forward is for adults to take responsibility for their own behavior, and for society to allow that to happen, and not to have big government taking responsibility for decisions that should be in the hands of individuals.

最终，前进的道路是成年人对自己的行为负责，社会允许这种情况发生，而不是让大政府对本应掌握在个人手中的决定负责。

And for me also, it’s exciting.

对我来说，这也很令人兴奋。

2:15:24 Some of these substances like psilocybin are being integrated into scientific studies in large scales.

其中一些物质（例如裸盖菇素）正在被大规模纳入科学研究中。

It’s really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

We’ve seen a revolution in the way science looks at psychedelics in the last 20, 25 years.

在过去 20、25 年里，我们见证了科学看待迷幻药的方式发生了一场革命。

2:15:33 They were in that highly demonized category.

他们属于那个被高度妖魔化的类别。

But again, it’s one of those paradigms which gets overwhelmed by new evidence, and it began to be realized that psilocybin and other psychedelics are very helpful in a range of conditions from which people suffer.

但同样，这是被新证据压倒的范式之一，人们开始意识到裸盖菇素和其他迷幻药对人们遭受的一系列病症非常有帮助。

Post-traumatic stress disorder.

创伤后应激障碍。

The fear of death when you’re suffering from terminal cancer can be overwhelming, and it’s been found that psilocybin can remove that.

当您患有晚期癌症时，对死亡的恐惧可能是压倒性的，并且发现裸盖菇素可以消除这种恐惧。

Deep depressions can be evaporated with one single massive psilocybin journey.

一次大规模的裸盖菇素之旅就可以消除深深的抑郁。

They just go away.

他们就走开。

There’s really good science on this.

这方面确实有很好的科学依据。

And they are being integrated into conventional medicine more and more.

它们越来越多地融入传统医学。

We’ll see it happening.

我们会看到它发生。

I’m not sure if it’ll happen as fast as I would like to see it happen in my lifetime, but it is going to happen.

我不确定它是否会像我希望在有生之年发生的那样快，但它一定会发生。

Yeah, I actually just recently found out that you had a TED Talk, War on Consciousness, that was taken down, and that was just part of just the general resistance.

是的，实际上我最近才发现你有一个 TED 演讲《意识之战》，但它被撤下了，而这只是普遍抵制的一部分。

2:16:29 Because it was a pretty…

因为那是一个漂亮的…

It wasn’t radical.

这并不激进。

It wasn’t really a radical-

这并不是真正的激进——

I was talking about ayahuasca and I was talking about the view that I hold very strongly that as long as we do no harm to others, sovereign adults should be allowed to make decisions about their own bodies and not face a jail sentence or shaming as the result.

我正在谈论死藤水，我正在谈论我非常坚定地持有的观点，即只要我们不伤害他人，就应该允许有主权的成年人对自己的身体做出决定，而不会因此而面临监禁或羞辱。

2:16:45 So it was a TEDx Talk, not a TED Talk, organized by a local TED group.

所以这是一场由当地 TED 小组组织的 TEDx 演讲，而不是 TED 演讲。

They called them TEDx Talks.

他们称之为 TEDx 演讲。

And I gave this talk about the war on consciousness, and it was immediately pulled down from TED’s main channel with all kinds of bizarre reasons being given.

我发表了关于意识之战的演讲，但它立即从 TED 主频道上被撤下，并给出了各种奇怪的理由。

But unfortunately, it was too late because a number of people had already downloaded the talk and then uploaded it onto other YouTube channels.

但不幸的是，为时已晚，因为许多人已经下载了演讲，然后将其上传到其他 YouTube 频道。

And actually, their banning of it made it go viral in a way that would not have happened otherwise.

事实上，他们的禁止让它以一种否则不会发生的方式病毒式传播。

But again, it’s a sign that points of view that are not acceptable to those in positions of power are simply dismissed and shut down, or at least attempts are made to do so.

但这再次表明，那些不为掌权者所接受的观点会被简单地驳回和关闭，或者至少会尝试这样做。

In general, just along that line of thinking, I’m pretty sure that what we understand about consciousness today will seem silly to humans from a hundred years from now.

总的来说，沿着这个思路，我很确定我们今天对意识的理解对于一百年后的人类来说将显得愚蠢。

You bet it will.

你打赌它会的。

2:17:53 Especially if we harness psychedelics to investigate consciousness.

特别是如果我们利用迷幻药来研究意识。

And that is what is happening at Imperial College right now is the investigation of the experience.

这就是帝国理工学院目前正在发生的事情，即对这一经历的调查。

They’re not looking…

他们不是在寻找……

There are other trials that are looking for the therapeutic potential of DMT, but in this case, they’re looking entirely at the experiences that people have and why they’re so similar from people from different age groups and different genders and different parts of the world, they’re all having the same experiences.

还有其他试验正在寻找 DMT 的治疗潜力，但在这种情况下，他们完全着眼于人们的经历，以及为什么来自不同年龄组、不同性别和世界不同地区的人如此相似，他们都有相同的经历。

And for me, from an engineer perspective, it’s interesting if it’s possible to engineer consciousness in artificial beings.

对我来说，从工程师的角度来看，如果有可能在人造生物中设计意识，那就很有趣。

2:18:23 It’s another way to approach the question of how special is human consciousness.

这是解决人类意识有多特殊这一问题的另一种方式。

From where does it arise?

它从哪里产生？

Is it something that permeates all of life?

它是渗透到生活中的某种东西吗？

And then in that case, what is the thing that makes life special?

那么，那么，是什么让生活变得特别呢？

What is life?

什么是生命？

What is these living organisms that we have here that evolve to create humans?

我们这里的这些生​​物体是什么进化来创造人类的？

And what is truly special about humans?

人类真正的特别之处是什么？

It’s both scary and exciting to consider the possibility that we can create something like this.

考虑我们可以创造这样的东西的可能性，既令人恐惧又令人兴奋。

But why not?

但为什么不呢？

2:19:02 We are a vehicle for consciousness, in my view.

在我看来，我们是意识的载体。

I think consciousness is present in all life on earth.

我认为意识存在于地球上的所有生命中。

I don’t think it’s limited to human beings.

我不认为这仅限于人类。

We have the equipment to manifest and express that consciousness in the way that a dog, for example, doesn’t have or a snail doesn’t have or a pigeon doesn’t have.

我们拥有以狗、蜗牛或鸽子所没有的方式显现和表达这种意识的设备。

But when I look at two pigeons sitting on my garden fence and rubbing up close to each other and enjoying each other’s company and taking off together and hanging out together, I think they’re conscious beings.

但当我看到两只鸽子坐在花园的栅栏上，互相靠近，享受彼此的陪伴，一起起飞，一起闲逛时，我认为它们是有意识的生物。

And I think consciousness is everywhere.

我认为意识无处不在。

I think it’s the basis of everything.

我认为这是一切的基础。

And I suspect that fundamentally, consciousness is non-physical, and that it can manifest in physical forms where it can then have experiences that would not be available in the non-physical state.

我怀疑从根本上来说，意识是非物质的，它可以以物质形式显现，然后它可以拥有在非物质状态下无法获得的体验。

That’s a guess.

这是一个猜测。

That’d be a fascinating…

那将是一个令人着迷的……

2:19:52 Because then you can construct all kinds of physical forms to manifest the consciousness.

因为这样你就可以构建各种物理形态来体现意识。

Yeah.

是的。

2:19:57 And see if consciousness enters, if they become conscious.

看看意识是否进入，他们是否变得有意识。

Isn’t there some suggestion that artificial intelligence is already becoming conscious?

难道没有迹象表明人工智能已经有了意识吗？

That makes humans really uncomfortable, because we are at the top of the food chain, we consider ourselves truly special, and to consider that there’s other things that could be special is scary.

这让人类真的很不舒服，因为我们处于食物链的顶端，我们认为自己真的很特别，并且考虑到还有其他可能很特别的东西是可怕的。

Well, look how other people make us uncomfortable too.

好吧，看看其他人也让我们感到不舒服。

2:20:16 I mean, look at the state of the world today.

我的意思是，看看当今世界的状况。

All the conflicts that are raging.

所有的冲突都在激烈地进行着。

That’s because we’re afraid.

那是因为我们害怕。

When I say we, I’m speaking nation by nation, we are afraid of other people.

当我说我们时，我是在逐个国家说，我们害怕其他人。

We fear that they’re going to hurt us or damage us in some way.

我们担心他们会伤害我们或以某种方式损害我们。

And so we seek to stop that.

因此我们试图阻止这种情况发生。

It’s the root of many, many conflicts, this fear.

这种恐惧是很多很多冲突的根源。

And so fear of AI may not be such a good idea after all.

因此，对人工智能的恐惧也许并不是一个好主意。

It might be very interesting to go down that route and see where it comes.

沿着这条路走下去看看它来自哪里可能会很有趣。

Certainly in terms of exploring consciousness, it is very interesting.

当然，就探索意识而言，这是非常有趣的。

Yeah, fear is a useful thing, but it can also be destructive.

是的，恐惧是有用的，但它也可能具有破坏性。

Well, it can be destructive and it can shut you down completely.

嗯，它可能具有破坏性，它可以让你彻底崩溃。

If you look into the future, maybe the next a hundred years, what do you hope are the interesting discoveries in archeology that we’ll find?

如果你展望未来，也许是接下来的一百年，你希望我们在考古学中发现什么有趣的发现？

Well, I’d really like to know how the Great Pyramid was built.

嗯，我真的很想知道大金字塔是如何建造的。

2:21:06 And we now have, with new tech, with scanning technology, it’s now become apparent that there are many major voids within the Great Pyramid.

现在，通过新技术和扫描技术，我们可以清楚地看到大金字塔内有许多主要的空隙。

Right above the Grand Gallery, there’s what looks like a second Grand Gallery that has been identified with remote scanning.

在大画廊的正上方，有一个看起来像第二个大画廊的东西，已通过远程扫描识别出来。

And new chambers, one of them has even been opened up already, are being found as a result of this.

因此，人们正在发现新的密室，其中一个甚至已经被打开。

So it may be that the Great Pyramid will ultimately give up its secrets.

因此，大金字塔最终可能会放弃它的秘密。

2:21:39 I often think that the Great Pyramid is partly designed to do that.

我经常认为大金字塔的部分设计就是为了实现这一点。

It’s designed to invite its own initiates.

它旨在邀请自己的同修。

Some people aren’t interested in the Great Pyramid at all, but some people are fascinated by it and they’re drawn towards it.

有些人对大金字塔根本不感兴趣，但有些人却对它着迷，被它吸引。

And when they’re drawn towards it, it immediately starts raising questions in their minds, and they seek answers to their questions.

当他们被它吸引时，它会立即开始在他们的脑海中提出问题，并寻求问题的答案。

2:21:59 So it’s like saying, ” Here I stand.

所以这就像在说：“我站在这里。

Investigate me.

调查我。

Find out about me.

了解一下我。

Figure out what I am.

弄清楚我是什么。

Why have I got these two shafts cut into the side of the so-called Queen’s Chamber?” Why do they slope up through the body of the Great Pyramid?

为什么我要把这两根竖井切入所谓女王密室的一侧？”为什么它们会倾斜穿过大金字塔的主体？

Why do they not exit on the outside of the Great Pyramid?

为什么他们不从大金字塔外面出去？

Why, when we send a robot up those shafts, do we find them after about 160 feet blocked by a door with metal handles.

为什么当我们将机器人送上这些竖井时，我们在大约 160 英尺后才发现它们被带有金属把手的门挡住了。

Why when we drill through that door to see what’s beyond it, three or four feet away, we see another door.

为什么当我们钻进那扇门，看看三四英尺外的外面是什么时，我们会看到另一扇门。

It’s very frustrating.

这很令人沮丧。

But it’s saying to us, “Keep on exploring.

但它对我们说：“继续探索。

If you’re persistent enough, we’ll eventually give you the answer.”

如果你足够坚持，我们最终会给你答案。”

2:22:40 So I’m hoping that that answer will come as to how this most mysterious of monuments was actually built and the inspiration that lay behind it.

因此，我希望能够找到关于这座最神秘的纪念碑实际上是如何建造的以及其背后的灵感的答案。

Certainly, I’m sure it was never a tomb, or a tomb only.

当然，我确信它绝不是一座坟墓，或者只是一座坟墓。

The later pyramids might’ve been.

后来的金字塔可能就是这样。

Actually no pharaonic burial has been discovered in any pyramid.

事实上，在任何金字塔中都没有发现法老墓葬。

But nevertheless, it’s pretty clear that the later pyramids with the pyramid texts written on the walls, like the pyramid of Unas, Fifth Dynasty pyramid at Saqqara, were tombs.

但尽管如此，很明显，后来的金字塔，墙上写有金字塔文字，比如乌纳斯金字塔、萨卡拉第五王朝金字塔，都是坟墓。

2:23:13 But the Great Pyramid, to go to that length to create a tomb, to make it a scale model of the earth, to orient it perfectly to true north, to make it 6 million tons.

但是大金字塔，要达到这个长度才能建造一座坟墓，使其成为地球的比例模型，使其完美地朝向正北，使其重达 600 万吨。

This is not a tomb.

这不是坟墓。

This is something else.

这是另一回事。

This is a curiosity device.

这是一个好奇心装置。

This is something that is asking us to understand it.

这是需要我们去理解的。

And I hope we will understand it.

我希望我们能够理解它。

And I hope Egyptologists will be willing to set aside that prejudice that they’re only looking at a tomb and consider other possibilities.

我希望埃及古物学家愿意抛开他们只关注坟墓的偏见，并考虑其他可能性。

And as new tech is revealing these previously unknown inner spaces within the Great Pyramid, I think that’s going to become more and more likely.

随着新技术揭示大金字塔内这些以前未知的内部空间，我认为这种可能性将变得越来越大。

So not just the how it was built, but the why.

因此，不仅要了解它是如何构建的，还要了解它的构建原因。

But the why.

但为什么呢。

And to you, it seems obvious that there would be a cosmic motivation.

对你来说，显然存在宇宙动机。

Yeah, very, very much so.

是的，非常非常如此。

2:23:57 As above, so below.

上面如此，下面也如此。

Which is an idea in the Hermetica.

这是 Hermetica 中的一个想法。

The God Hermes for the Greeks was the Greek version of Thoth, the wisdom God of Ancient Egypt.

希腊人的赫尔墨斯神是古埃及智慧之神托特的希腊版本。

And that’s where that saying comes from.

这就是这句话的由来。

It comes from the Hermetica.

它来自赫尔墨斯。

But it’s expressing an ancient Egyptian idea, to mirror the perfection of the heavens on earth.

但它表达了古埃及的想法，反映了地球上天堂的完美。

So you think there’s something interesting to be discovered about the how it was built?

那么您认为它的建造方式有一些有趣的地方有待发现吗？

2:24:19 You mean beyond the ideas of using ramps and wet sand.

你的意思是超越使用坡道和湿沙的想法。

Yeah.

是的。

2:24:27 Ramps won’t do it.

坡道不会这样做。

Ramps won’t do it.

坡道不会这样做。

Nor will wet sand.

湿沙也不会。

It’s true that the ancient Egyptians did haul big objects on sleds on wet sand.

确实，古埃及人确实用雪橇在湿沙上拖运大型物体。

There are even reliefs that show the process where an individual is standing on the front of the sledge pouring water down to lubricate the sand underneath.

甚至还有浮雕展示了一个人站在雪橇前部倒水以润滑下面的沙子的过程。

And that’s a perfectly respectable way to move a 200 ton block of stone across sand, flat sand, if you have enough people to pull it.

如果你有足够多的人来拉动一块 200 吨的石头，那么这是在沙子、平坦的沙子上移动一块 200 吨石头的完美方式。

But that is not going to help you get dozens of 70 ton granite blocks 300 feet in the air to form the roof of the King’s Chamber and the floor of the chamber above it, and the roof of that chamber, and the floor of the chamber above that, and so on and so forth.

但这并不能帮助你在 300 英尺高的空中获得数十块 70 吨的花岗岩块来形成国王密室的屋顶和其上方房间的地板，以及该房间的屋顶和其上方房间的地板，等等。

Wet sand never got those objects up there.

湿沙永远不会把这些物体带到那里。

Somehow they were lifted up there.

不知何故，他们被举到了那里。

2:25:18 Now, yeah, ramps are proposed as the solution, but where are the remains of those ramps?

现在，是的，坡道被提议作为解决方案，但这些坡道的遗迹在哪里？

If you’re going to carry blocks weighing up to two or three tons right to the top of the Great Pyramid to complete your work, you’re going to need a ramp that’s going to extend out into the desert for more than a mile at a 10 degree slope.

如果您要将重达两吨或三吨的石块直接运到大金字塔顶部来完成您的工作，您将需要一个坡道，该坡道将以 10 度的坡度延伸到沙漠中一英里多。

And it’s calculated that a 10 degree slope is about the maximum slope that human labor can haul objects up a ramp.

据计算，10度的坡度大约是人类劳动力可以将物体拖上坡道的最大坡度。

And that ramp can’t just be compacted sand, since heavy objects are being hauled up.

而且坡道不能只是压实的沙子，因为要拖运重物。

It’s going to have to be made of very solid material, almost as solid as the pyramid itself.

它必须由非常坚固的材料制成，几乎与金字塔本身一样坚固。

Where is it?

它在哪里？

We don’t see any trace of those so-called ramps that are supposed to have been involved in the construction of the pyramid.

我们没有看到任何所谓的坡道的痕迹，这些坡道应该与金字塔的建造有关。

I think we don’t know.

我想我们不知道。

I think we have no idea it’s built.

我认为我们不知道它已经建成。

That’s why there’s so many different theories.

这就是为什么有这么多不同的理论。

We haven’t got the answer yet.

我们还没有得到答案。

But the how of it is one of the big mysteries from our past.

但它是如何发生的却是我们过去的一大谜团。

I love the Great Pyramids as a kind of puzzle that was created by the ancient peoples to be solved by later peoples.

我喜欢大金字塔，因为它是一种由古代人民创造并由后来的人民解决的谜题。

2:26:12 I don’t know if you’re aware of the 10,000-year clock that was built by Jeff Bezos and Danny Hillis in Sierra Diablo mountains in Texas.

我不知道你是否知道杰夫·贝佐斯和丹尼·希利斯在德克萨斯州迪亚布罗山脉建造的万年钟。

They’re building a clock that ticks once a year for 10,000 years.

他们正在建造一个每年走动一万年的时钟。

Oh, wow.

哦，哇。

So it’s talking about…

所以它谈论的是……

2:26:37 And it’s supposed to sort of run, if there’s a nuclear apocalypse, it just runs.

它应该会运行，如果出现核灾难，它就会运行。

It’ll keep running.

它会继续运行。

It’s an example of modern humans thinking like, okay, if 10,000 years from now and beyond, if something goes wrong or the future humans that are way different come back and they analyze what happened here, how can we create monuments that they could then analyze, and in that way be curious about.

这是现代人类思考的一个例子，好吧，如果一万年后甚至更久之后，如果出了什么问题，或者未来的人类回来了，他们会分析这里发生的事情，我们如何才能创造出可供他们分析的纪念碑，并以这种方式感到好奇。

2:26:45 In their curiosity, discover some deep truths about this current time.

在他们的好奇心中，发现一些关于当前时代的深刻真相。

It’s an interesting kind of notion of what can we build now.

关于我们现在可以构建什么，这是一个有趣的概念。

That would last.

那会持续下去。

2:27:17 And the answer is that the majority of what we build now wouldn’t last.

答案是我们现在建造的大部分东西都不会持久。

It wouldn’t.

不会的。

It would be gone within a few thousand years.

几千年后它就会消失。

2:27:23 But what would last is massive megalithic structures like the Great Pyramid.

但能持续存在的是像大金字塔这样的巨大巨石建筑。

That would last.

那会持续下去。

And it could be used to send a message to the future.

它可以用来向未来发送信息。

I think Göbekli Tepe serves a similar function.

我认为哥贝克力石阵也有类似的功能。

I mean, there it was, it was buried 10,400 years ago.

我的意思是，它就在那里，10,400 年前就被埋葬了。

And then for the next 10,000 years, nobody touched it.

然后在接下来的一万年里，没有人碰过它。

Nobody knew it was there.

没有人知道它在那里。

It took the genius of Klaus Schmidt, the original excavator, to realize what he’d found and what it was.

最初的挖掘机克劳斯·施密特（Klaus Schmidt）的天才才意识到他发现了什么以及它是什么。

But the great thing about the ceiling of Göbekli Tepe, the deliberate burial of Göbekli Tepe, is it means that no later culture trod over it and imposed their organic materials on it and messed up the dating sequences and so on and so forth, or vandalized it or used it as a quarry.

但哥贝克力石阵天花板的伟大之处在于，对哥贝克力石阵的有意埋葬，意味着没有后来的文化踩踏它，将有机材料强加在它上面，弄乱了约会序列等等，或者破坏它或将它用作采石场。

It’s all there intact.

一切都完好无损。

So you mentioned that the pyramids, and some of the other amazing things that humans have built, was the result of us humans struggling with our mortality.

所以你提到金字塔，以及人类建造的其他一些令人惊奇的东西，是我们人类与死亡作斗争的结果。

That’s the ultimate goal.

这就是最终目标。

2:28:28 That seems to me what’s at the heart of many pyramids around the world is that they’re connected in one way or another to the notion of death and to the notion of the exploration of the afterlife.

在我看来，世界各地许多金字塔的核心在于它们以某种方式与死亡的概念和探索来世的概念联系在一起。

And this is of course, the fundamental mystery that all human beings face.

这当然是全人类面临的根本之谜。

We may wish to ignore it, we may wish to pretend that it’s not going to happen, but we are of course, all mortal.

我们可能希望忽略它，我们可能希望假装它不会发生，但我们当然都是凡人。

Every one of us, all 8 billion or however many of us that are on the planet right now, we’re all going to face death sooner or later.

我们每一个人，80 亿人，或者现在地球上有多少人，我们迟早都会面临死亡。

And the question is what happens?

问题是会发生什么？

2:29:06 And there are a few cultures that really intensely, deeply studied that mystery.

有一些文化真正认真、深入地研究了这个谜团。

We are not one of them.

我们不是其中之一。

The general view of science, I think, is that we’re accidents of evolution.

我认为，科学界的普遍观点是，我们是进化的偶然事件。

When we die, the light blinks out.

当我们死后，灯就会熄灭。

There’s no more of us.

我们已经没有了。

There’s no such thing as the soul.

不存在灵魂这样的东西。

But that’s not a proven point.

但这还没有得到证实。

There’s no experiment that proves that’s the case.

没有实验证明情况确实如此。

We know we die, but we don’t know whether there’s such a thing as a soul or not.

我们知道我们会死，但我们不知道是否存在灵魂这样的东西。

Yeah, it’s the great mystery.

是的，这是一个巨大的谜团。

It’s a great mystery that we all share, and those cultures that have investigated it, and Ancient Egypt is the best example, have investigated it thoroughly and map out the journey that we make after death.

这是我们所有人都共有的一个伟大的谜团，那些研究过它的文化，古埃及就是最好的例子，已经彻底研究过它，并规划出了我们死后的旅程。

2:29:34 But that notion of a journey after death and of hazards and challenges along the way and ultimately of a judgment, that notion is found right around the world, and it even manifests into the three monotheistic faiths that are still present in the world today.

但是，关于死后旅程、沿途的危险和挑战以及最终的审判的观念，这种观念在世界各地都能找到，甚至体现在当今世界仍然存在的三种一神论信仰中。

Well, you’re one such human, and you said you contemplate your own death.

嗯，你就是这样的人，你说你正在考虑自己的死亡。

Yeah.

是的。

Are you afraid of it?

你害怕吗？

No.

不。

2:30:09 I’m not afraid of death at all.

我一点也不害怕死亡。

I’m curious about death.

我对死亡很好奇。

I think it could be very interesting.

我认为这可能会非常有趣。

I think it’s the beginning of the next great adventure.

我认为这是下一次伟大冒险的开始。

So I don’t fear it.

所以我不害怕它。

And I would like to live as long as my body is healthy enough to make living worthwhile.

只要我的身体足够健康，我就愿意活下去，让生活变得有价值。

But I don’t fear death.

但我并不害怕死亡。

What I do fear is pain.

我害怕的是痛苦。

I do fear the humiliation that old age and the collapse of the faculties can bring.

我确实害怕年老和能力衰退所带来的羞辱。

I do fear the cancers that can strike us down and riddle us with pain and agony.

我确实担心癌症会击垮我们，让我们充满痛苦和痛苦。

That I fear very, very much indeed.

我确实非常非常害怕。

2:30:46 But death is going to come to all of us.

但死亡将会降临到我们所有人身上。

I accept it.

我接受。

It’s going to come to me.

它会来找我的。

I’m not going to say I’m looking forward to it, but when it happens, I’m going to approach it, I hope, with a sense of curiosity and a sense of adventure, that there’s something beyond this life.

我不会说我很期待它，但当它发生时，我会接近它，我希望，带着好奇心和冒险感，有超越此生的东西。

It isn’t heaven, it isn’t hell, but there’s something.

这不是天堂，也不是地狱，但有一些东西。

The soul goes on.

灵魂还在继续。

I think reincarnation is a very plausible idea.

我认为转世是一个非常合理的想法。

Again, modern science would reject that.

现代科学再次拒绝了这一点。

But there’s the excellent work of Ian Stevenson, Children Who Remember Past Lives, who found that children up to the age of seven often have memories of past lives.

但伊恩·史蒂文森 (Ian Stevenson) 的出色著作《记得前世的孩子》(Children Who Remember Past Lives) 发现，七岁以下的孩子通常都有前世的记忆。

2:31:25 And in cultures where memories of past lives are discouraged, they tend not to express that much.

在不鼓励回忆前世的文化中，他们往往不会表达那么多。

But in cultures where memories of past lives are encouraged, like India, they do express it.

但在印度等鼓励前世记忆的文化中，他们确实表达了这一点。

And he found several subjects, children under the age of seven in India, who were able to remember specific details of a past life, and he was able to go to the place where that past life unfolded and validate those details.

他发现了几个受试者，印度七岁以下的儿童，他们能够记住前世的具体细节，他能够前往前世展开的地方并验证这些细节。

So if consciousness is the basis of everything, if it’s the essence of everything, and consciousness benefits in some way from being incarnated in physical form, then reincarnation makes a lot of sense.

因此，如果意识是一切的基础，如果它是一切的本质，并且意识在某种程度上从以物质形式化身中受益，那么转世就很有意义。

All the investment that the universe has put into creating this home for life may have a much bigger purpose than just accident.

宇宙为创造这个生命之家而投入的所有投资可能有一个比偶然更大的目的。

What a beautiful mystery this whole thing is.

这整件事是多么美丽的谜啊。

Yeah.

是的。

2:32:12 We are immersed in mystery.

我们沉浸在神秘之中。

We live in the midst of mystery.

我们生活在神秘之中。

We’re surrounded by mystery.

我们被神秘包围。

And if we pretend otherwise, we’re deluding ourselves.

如果我们假装不这样，我们就是在欺骗自己。

And Graham, thank you so much for inspiring the world to explore that mystery.

格雷厄姆，非常感谢你激励世界探索这个谜团。

2:32:19 Thank you for talking today.

谢谢你今天的发言。

Thank you, Lex.

谢谢你，莱克斯。

2:32:24 It’s been a pleasure.

这是一种乐趣。

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Graham Hancock.

感谢您收听与格雷厄姆·汉考克的对话。

2:32:27 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

为了支持这个播客，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

2:32:34 And now let me leave you with some words from Charles Darwin.

现在让我向你们传达查尔斯·达尔文的话。

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent.

“幸存下来的物种并不是最强大的，也不是最聪明的。

It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

它是最能适应变化的。”感谢您的聆听，并希望下次再见。