伯尼·桑德斯访谈
Bernie Sanders Interview
美国参议员谈贫富差距、医疗与教育、工薪阶层的处境以及对民主党路线的看法。
华盛顿特区有 1800 多名注册说客替制药公司干活。参议院 100 人，众议院 435 人，加起来 535 个议员。折算一下，每位议员身边常年围着三个多专盯他的药企说客。伯尼·桑德斯（Bernie Sanders）在播客里报这个数的时候，语气平常得像在念天气预报，然后补了一句：这些说客里还包括民主党和共和党的前党魁。美国人买同样的处方药，要付全世界最高的价钱，答案的一大半就藏在这个 1800 里。
这场对话录在佛蒙特州伯灵顿，秋天，枫叶正红。桑德斯 83 岁，刚在街上走了一圈，坐下来聊了一个多小时。话题从 1963 年那场华盛顿大游行聊到全民医保，从 2016 年被建制派按住的初选聊到他自己五年前那次心脏病，最后聊到死亡。Lex 事后说，这是他访谈过的最不像政客的政客，整场几乎不提自己，一开口全是数字和结构。那些数字确实比任何竞选口号都更让人坐不住。
政治里真正发生的事，是“谁买下了通道”
Lex 一上来问了一个很多记者都绕开的问题：大部分政客到底是真的腐败，还是制度本身在腐败？桑德斯没和稀泥。他说如果有人塞 1 万美元让你投某一票，这种事极其罕见。真正发生的事情隐蔽得多，也系统得多。
“你在俄亥俄州竞选参议员，得筹 5000 万到 6000 万美元。这钱从哪来？指望不上那些 10 美元的小额捐款。你会把自己包围在有钱人中间，5000 美元一场的筹款会，一场接一场。那些人告诉你他们的诉求，他们的税要减免，他们的行业要放松监管。你天天活在那个世界里，他们就是你的政治基本盘。你不会想去激怒他们。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
他管这叫“依赖”。这两个字在法律上离“受贿”很远，在结果上几乎一样。桑德斯说，他 2016 年竞选最自豪的一件事，是收到的几百万笔捐款平均每笔 27 美元。当年他走进参议院时，50 名民主党同僚里只有 1 个人公开支持他，没有一个州长站他这边。就这条件，他赢下 23 个州。
怎么改？他把矛头对准 2010 年最高法院那桩“联合公民案”（Citizens United）。判决的逻辑是这样：你是亿万富翁，你生活在自由国家，你有自由花几亿美元买下这场选举，剥夺你这种自由太可怕了。桑德斯说，那就先把这个判决推翻，然后走公共选举资金的路子。你想竞选，先证明你有真实民意基础，拿到足够多笔 5 美元的小额捐款，政府按比例配一笔钱，同时设总支出上限。他举了欧洲的例子：每个国家都有自己的选举制度，但没有哪个国家允许亿万富翁通过超级政治行动委员会无上限砸钱，把中意的候选人送进办公室。
Lex 追问：政客的钱都来自富豪，他们凭什么投票反对富豪？桑德斯承认这是个死结。他的答案是靠一场从下往上的群众运动，让每个竞选市议员、州参议员的人都必须在市民大会上回答同一个问题：你支持推翻联合公民案吗？你支持公共选举资金吗？他有一句判断在整场访谈里反复出现：议题越重要，讨论得越少；越不重要，讨论得越多。
美国医疗系统每年让 6 万人不必要地死去
桑德斯是参议院卫生、教育、劳工与养老金委员会（HELP）的主席，他谈医疗的方式是讲病例。
佛蒙特州的医生告诉他，病人走进诊室时，病情往往已经拖得比本该的严重得多。医生问，你为什么六个月前有症状时不来？病人说，我的自付额（deductible）是 1 万美元，我掏不出钱。还有人根本没保险。有些人没挺过来。另一些人被送进急诊，花掉整个系统更多的钱，只因为没在最便宜的时候看上医生。他讲这段时没有任何修辞，就是一问一答的复述。
“全美每年大约有 6 万人，因为经济原因看不上医生，不必要地死去。还有更离谱的，接受癌症治疗的美国人里，每 4 个就有 1 个要么破产，要么把全家的积蓄耗光。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
他描述那个场景时放慢了语速。一个人被诊断出癌症，已经吓得半死，担心自己会不会死，然后还得担心家人会不会因此破产。他反问：这有多荒谬，多残忍。
Lex 讲了朋友彼得·阿提亚（Peter Attia）的事。阿提亚收入不错，儿子脱水送急诊，做了一项基础检查，打了一袋生理盐水，账单 6000 美元。保险覆盖 4000，他自己掏 2000。一次这样的急诊就足以把很多家庭的财务打垮。桑德斯接过话：正因为如此，很多人身体不舒服时第一反应是不去医院，因为不想收到那张 6000 美元的账单。恐惧在改变人的行为，而且改变的方向对自己最不利。拖到后来进急诊，花的是整个系统更多的钱。
美国的医疗支出按人头算大概是人家的两倍，全球最高。结果是 8500 万美国人没有保险或者保险不足，预期寿命比几乎所有主要发达国家都低。桑德斯说他一直奇怪，这种数据为什么不在电视上被反复讨论。Lex 补充了一个观察：单个政客谈这个话题会被惩罚，所以要有一个不怕得罪金主的人站在最大的平台上讲，等于给其他人撑一把伞。桑德斯说，对，还得配上群众运动，让每个来拉票的人都被当面追问。
他提的方案是“全民医保”（Medicare for All），分步走。先把联邦医疗保险（Medicare，面向 65 岁以上老人的公共医保）做厚，补上牙科、听力、视力，取消老年人现在要付的各种自付额；再把资格年龄从 65 岁降到 55 岁，45 岁，35 岁，四五年之内全社会覆盖。钱从累进税里出。他反复强调，这套东西在加拿大、在欧洲几乎所有国家都跑了几十年，走进医院不用掏一个钢镚儿，不需要重新发明轮子。
Lex 问，那不就是加税吗？桑德斯把账算给他听：一个自雇家庭，有配偶有孩子，一年保险费可能 1.5 万到 2 万美元。改革之后这笔保费没了，你可能多交 1.2 万美元的税，但省下 2 万美元的保费、共付额和免赔额。钱没有消失，它从保险公司的账上搬到了税务局，中间省下的那一截，就是这个系统现在白白烧掉的钱。
50 年，50 万亿美元，从底层 90% 搬到顶层 1%
访谈里有一段桑德斯反过来考 Lex 的对话，信息密度最高。
他问，过去 50 年技术让劳动生产率大幅提升，这一点没人否认。那么今天一个工人生产的价值比 50 年前多得多，扣掉通胀之后，他拿到的钱是不是也多了？Lex 说，看用什么口径，大致持平或者略高略低，肯定没有跟着生产率同步涨，贫富差距显著扩大了。桑德斯说，这就是重点。工人产出更多，本该过得更好，或者少干几个小时，可这 50 年没发生这种好事。
“根据兰德公司（RAND Corporation）的研究，这 50 年里大约有 50 万亿美元的财富，从底层 90% 的人手里转移到了顶层 1% 的人手里。50 万亿，带 T 的那个。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
接着几个数字。今天美国 CEO 的平均薪酬是普通员工的 300 倍。三个人的财富超过美国社会后一半人口的总和。这股愤怒是真实的，问题在于它被引向哪里。
桑德斯说特朗普是个聪明的政客，他嗅到了这股愤怒，然后把矛头转向更弱势的人：移民、少数族裔、跨性别者。他举了个当下的例子：特朗普去麦当劳系上围裙做了一场摆拍，记者问他，你支持提高联邦最低工资吗？他没回答。联邦最低工资现在还是 7.25 美元一小时，很多麦当劳员工实际拿 12、13 美元。在全世界最富的国家，一周干 40 小时不该活在贫困线以下。他的主张是 17 美元。他说这解决不了工人阶级的全部经济问题，但能帮上忙。
“我当了 16 年议员，一直在租房”
Lex 提到那个被右翼反复攻击的点：桑德斯身家大约 200 万美元，有三处住所。桑德斯的回应很直接，还带着点自嘲。
“我确实有三处房子。一处在伯灵顿，中产社区，还不错的房子。你知道，我是美国参议员，我在华盛顿特区有套房，大多数参议员都有。其实我在国会头 16 年一直租房，后来选上了六年任期，就想，行吧，买一套。然后和佛蒙特州成千上万的人一样，我在尚普兰湖边有个夏日小屋，挺好的，就这样。钱怎么来的？你说得对，我写了两本畅销书，其中一本就是那本讲资本主义的，还有一本给年轻人写的。我年薪大概 17.5 万美元。我这个‘巨富’就是这么来的。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
他还补了一句，说自己开一辆 11 年的旧车，身上的“珠宝”是一块太阳能手表和一枚婚戒，对劳力士毫无兴趣。接着这段话，是他少有的主动往深处走的地方。
他说，有钱这件事真正改变的地方，在于他不用再担心什么了。他年轻时候在布鲁克林租房住，家里没什么钱，会为电费发愁。今天他家里谁生病了，直接去看医生，不会半夜躺床上算这个月的账。
“我以前去买菜，会盯着每一样东西的价签看。现在看得少了，我会想，贵 50 美分就贵 50 美分吧，那又怎样。这就是你不用为钱发愁时拥有的一种奢侈。但我知道这是个很容易掉进去的陷阱，你会跟普通人的挣扎脱节。我尽力不让自己掉进去。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
他说自己作为劳工委员会主席，这些年跑过几十场罢工现场，站过很多次纠察线。这段交代没有辩解的味道，更像一个 83 岁的人在回答自己有没有变这个问题。他 1970 年代初进入政坛时身家 1100 美元，今天说清楚这些钱的来路，比否认那三处房子要难得多。
他说自己的政治底色，来自布鲁克林那个租金管制公寓里的家庭。这句话他说得很轻，但它是理解他所有主张的钥匙。他讲这些主张时用的词是“我们”，讲自己的财产时用的词是“就这样”。这个差别很说明问题。
2016 年，50 名民主党参议员里只有 1 个站他
Lex 把话题拉回 2016。维基解密曝光的邮件显示，民主党全国委员会在初选阶段明显偏向希拉里。Lex 问，你回头看，愤怒吗？
桑德斯说，当然愤怒，当然不爽。他马上把镜头拉远：你挑战的是一个掌控了那个党几十年的建制派，是民主党内的金主，是企业美国，是企业媒体，你喊的是“政治革命”，对面反弹的力度必然是空前的。
“我当时在参议院，民主党有 50 个人，我只有 1 个支持者。没有一个州长支持我，众议院里大概也就几个人。我们就这样对整个政治建制派发起了挑战，最后拿到几百万张票。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
他还讲了一段很少被复述的后续。2016 年之后，他们试过从内部拿下民主党全国委员会，推基思·埃里森（Keith Ellison）去竞选 DNC 主席。埃里森当时是国会议员，现在是明尼苏达州总检察长。结果从总统往下，整个建制派全部下场阻击，埃里森以很小的票差落败。桑德斯说，这就是“我们很多人今天所处的完全相同的位置”。
Lex 追问那个很多人耿耿于怀的决定：你为什么最后转而支持希拉里？桑德斯的回答没有绕。
“替代方案是什么？唐纳德·特朗普？我认为特朗普是一个极其危险的人，他在试图破坏美国的民主。我不能支持他。希拉里的观点和我差得很远，但那一刻，政治变得非常棘手，它不好做。有时候你得做一些你自己并不兴奋的事。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
Lex 提到了阿里·拉宾-哈夫特（Ari Rabin-Havt）那本《战斗的灵魂》（The Fighting Soul）里记录的一件往事。2018 年，奥巴马跟桑德斯说：伯尼，你是我们党的旧约先知，是道德的声音，给我们指引。但先知当不了国王。国王必须做选择，先知不用。你愿意做那些选择吗？
桑德斯没有正面评判奥巴马这话对不对。他讲了两段历史。
第一段是马丁·路德·金。他说金最了不起的地方，是拿到诺贝尔和平奖、被全美国夸完之后，晚年公开站出来反对林登·约翰逊的越战政策。那一刻，全美主流报纸的社论版立刻翻脸，传达的信息是：你是黑人，管好民权就行，外交政策不用你操心。但金说，如果我讲和平与非暴力，就不能对越南正在发生的事保持沉默。桑德斯说，这是非凡的勇气。而金被刺杀时，正在孟菲斯支持环卫工人组建工会，那些倒垃圾的工人工资低、条件差，他去支持他们的罢工权利，就在那里被杀了。
第二段是尤金·德布斯（Eugene V. Debs），20 世纪初的工会组织者，美国铁路工会的创建者之一，五次竞选总统，最后一次是在监狱里选的，因为反对一战，那次还拿到约一百万票。他每次选举都输得很惨。可 1932 年罗斯福上台后推行的很多东西，至少有一部分是德布斯当年讲过的。
“所以有时候你可以输，但你其实赢了，如果你的目标在于改变社会，而不在个人权力。我和奥巴马的分歧在这里：我认为你必须先提高普通人的觉悟。当人们知道发生了什么，并且有组织地准备为改变而战，他们能带来惊人的变化。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
他举了一串例子。今天美国有女性竞选总统，有女性州长、女性参议员。不太久以前，美国参议院是 98 个男人、2 个女人。1920 年女性才拿到投票权。这个变化从哪来？女性和她们的男性盟友成规模地站出来。同性恋权利也一样，他年轻时候认识的人里，没有几个敢公开出柜。这些都是草根一层一层顶出来的，没有一件是某个国王从上面恩赐的。
Lex 请他谈谈奥巴马。桑德斯先说了句自己和他算不上密友，但认识，偶尔聊天。然后他讲了三件事：2008 年出现美国历史上第一位黑人总统，这件事本身的分量不该被低估，当年很多人说“我们这辈子看不到”；奥巴马极其聪明，是美国最好的演讲者之一；他和米歇尔还有两个孩子，八年里把那个位置撑得体面，即便政治上有分歧的人也给了尊重。桑德斯说，他和奥巴马在不少议题上意见不同，比如医保，奥巴马大概会说如果能重来他会选单一支付方，但当时他能拿到的最好结果是《平价医疗法案》。他们在这件事上分歧依旧。
“我思考了大概五分钟”
Lex 问，2024 年你有没有考虑过再选一次？他说从自己的角度看，很希望桑德斯上场，而且觉得胜算不小，不只初选，还有大选。
桑德斯的回答短得有点出人意料。他说他大概想了五分钟。原因是进步运动有句口号：问题不在我，在我们。去挑战拜登，在他看来拜登在国内议题上表现相当强，这么做会真正撕裂民主党，为特朗普铺好一条轻松取胜的路。他不想看到那个结果。
“所以有时候在生活中，我知道很多年轻人不同意我这点，但你得做痛苦的选择。我强烈支持拜登，因为我认可他的国内执政记录，他在大量反对声中做了一些好事。我现在支持卡玛拉。我在尽我所能，不让唐纳德·特朗普这样一个危险的人当上总统。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
Lex 追问，那你的希望是不是寄托在将来出现更多民粹的、进步的候选人身上？他说，绝对如此，而且会有。
一百个人的进步党团，和那个敲门的调酒师
Lex 问，进步派最终会不会接管民主党？桑德斯说，这是他心目中美国政治最重要的问题。
他给的事实是：现在众议院里有接近 100 名进步党团（Progressive Caucus）成员，由华盛顿州的普拉米拉·贾亚帕尔（Pramila Jayapal）领导，干得很好。里面很多人年轻，很多是女性，很多是有色人种，很多来自工人阶级家庭。亚历山德里娅·奥卡西奥-科尔特斯（AOC）、伊尔汗·奥马尔（Ilhan Omar）都在其中。他说这些人代表工薪家庭，干得非常有效。
“民主党的斗争，是企业派和进步派之间的斗争。企业派拿很多钱，把希望寄托在富豪和大企业的捐款上，在代表工人阶级利益这件事上并不积极。如果他们积极，我们早就有全民医保了，最低工资早就够生活了，就不会有住房危机，就不会有一个让亿万富翁的实际税率低于卡车司机和护士的税制。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
他还说了一句很锋利的话：特朗普在政治上能成功，靠的主要是他的情绪，跟他的政策主张关系不大，多数工人阶级并不认为该给亿万富翁减税。人们愤怒，民主党没有有效回应这股愤怒，空出来的位置就被别人占了。
谈到 AOC，桑德斯少见地流露出近乎父辈的语气。他说她来自工人阶级家庭，帮母亲做过保洁，在布朗克斯当过调酒师。他很自豪自己 2016 年的竞选激励了她出来参选。她挑战的是乔·克劳利（Joe Crowley），民主党内的重量级人物。她没钱，靠敲门，靠草根动员，赢了。
他说有一年她和伴侣莱利来佛蒙特看他，两人走在街上，路人认出她喊“议员”，她笑着回应。那种和人的连接装不出来。桑德斯说，你可以是绝顶聪明的知识分子，但如果不会跟人打交道，你当不了好政客。她两样都有。她还参与创建了“绿色新政”（Green New Deal）的概念，核心是把能源转型和创造就业绑在一起，也是全民医保和劳工权利的坚定支持者。
Lex 请他说说自己最持久的影响。桑德斯没有给单一答案。他说自己当过这座城市的市长，为市政成绩自豪；当参议员也有成绩。新冠最严重、经济急剧下滑那段，他作为预算委员会主席参与撰写了《美国救援计划》（American Rescue Plan），把钱直接塞进人们口袋，靠儿童税收抵免把儿童贫困率砍掉 40%，保住医院、保住大学、避免人们被赶出房子、推动公共卫生和疫苗接种。他说这些他自豪。
“但说到底，我证明的是那些想法本来就有广泛支持。特朗普说伯尼·桑德斯是极左，好像我在提一些没人支持的极端主张。我讲的每一件事，提高最低工资、全民医保、让亿万富翁付该付的税，全都是受欢迎的主张。只是人们以前不知道。你得去竞选总统，让两万人来你的集会，赢下 23 个州，然后他们才会说，嗯，也许这些想法没那么疯，我们得认真对待一下。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
他接着说，建制派不喜欢这个。他们真正的手法是这样：世界就是这样，一直都会是这样，财富在我们手里，权力在我们手里，你别想别的了，你没有力量，放弃吧。他们说的时候不会这么直白，但意图就是这个。而他做的事，就是当着几千万人的面把这句话顶回去，然后说，看，一个 outsider 的竞选，对着民主党建制派，我们差一点就赢了，赢下了 23 个州，而这些想法是工人阶级和年轻人真心相信的。
83 岁，心脏病发作，最怕的并非死亡
访谈接近尾声，Lex 问了一个很柔软的问题：你会想自己的死亡吗？你怕吗？
桑德斯说，你 83 岁了，这事自然会找上门。然后他停了一下，说自己不怕死。
“我怕的是衰弱。我这辈子，敲敲木头，身体一直还算可以，除了五年前那次心脏病发作。那次真正震到我的，是我的身体第一次背叛了我。我突然就躺在医院的病床上了。我对现在住在养老院里、走路很困难、脑子开始不太灵光的人，有很深的共情。那很难。那才是我担心的。我们都会死，就这样。那个我不怕。但变老的那个部分，确实让我不安。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
Lex 说，你的脑子还是我见过的最锋利的政客之一，私下里那种温度也非常真实。桑德斯道了谢。Lex 又补了一句，说那些演讲、那些房子、所有这些之后，谦逊还在，机锋还在，全都在。
Lex 问，什么让你对这个国家和世界还抱有希望？桑德斯承认，看当下的战争、看这个国家的撕裂、看贫困、看气候变化，人是可以变得非常犬儒的。但他说自己运气好，因为他去过太多地方。
他讲了一个具体的画面。在加州农业区的一场集会，太阳正在落山，几千人在场。他环顾人群，年轻人、老人、黑人、白人、拉丁裔、亚裔，各个年龄段，各种背景。他们来这儿的目标在于让这个国家变得更好，跟把自己变成亿万富翁没有任何关系。他说，那一刻他真的被打动了。
“我跑遍了美国每一个州，去过印第安人保留地，去过工厂。我见过太多了不起的人，很美好的人。这听起来像陈词滥调，每个政客都会这么说。但我确实看到了很多人没机会看到的东西。这让我有力量继续走下去。”（伯尼·桑德斯）
节目最后，桑德斯反过来夸了 Lex 一句。他说人们对企业媒体越来越不满，原因跟假新闻、跟记者天天撒谎无关，那是胡扯。原因是人们想听人在一种平静的氛围里，认真谈那些企业媒体不碰的重要议题。他说你做的是对国家很重要的服务。
这段话放在结尾很有意思。一个在体制内待了四十多年的参议员，把希望更多地寄托在体制外的独立媒体和草根运动上，未必押在任何一个政党身上。
把这场对话压成几条能用的判断
桑德斯整场没有给过任何一条成功学建议，他讲的全是结构。结构看清之后，个人能做的动作其实是清楚的。下面几条可以直接拿去用。
- 有候选人到你所在城市拉票，当面问两个具体问题：你支持推翻联合公民案吗？你支持公共选举资金吗？这两问的厉害之处在于它不问立场，只问动作。候选人可以含糊地谈价值观，很难含糊地回答是或否。而且这个话题在共和党选民里同样受欢迎，问了不吃亏，反而是帮了敢回答的人。
- 投票前查一下这个人的钱从哪来。去 OpenSecrets 这类公开数据库，看他的小额捐款占比和政治行动委员会资金的占比。桑德斯 2016 年平均每笔 27 美元，这组数字衡量的独立性很实在。小额占比越低，他在关键议题上让步的概率越高。
- 把“保险费”和“税”放在同一张纸上算一遍。如果你有雇主医保，去问 HR 公司替你付了多少保费。这笔钱名义上由公司出，实际从你的加薪空间里扣。桑德斯说，每次工会谈判，医保成本上涨都会直接吃掉工资涨幅。算清这笔账，你对“全民医保等于加税”这句话的判断会完全不一样。
- 把注意力往地方选举挪一些。地方选举投票率常年只有百分之十几，这是个人影响力性价比最高的地方。桑德斯反复说改变是从市议会、州议会这一层长出来的。AOC 击败克劳利靠的是敲门，没有电视广告。你在自己街区投的一票，权重比总统大选高出一个数量级。
- 关心某个议题，别只在网上说，去一场线下的市民大会。桑德斯描述的那种日落集会之所以能改变一个党的议程，关键不在人多，在人到场了。到场这个动作本身就是政客唯一真正害怕的信号。
- 自己去读一遍兰德公司那份收入分配的原始研究。50 万亿美元这个数字被引用得太频繁，很多人已经麻木。去看它的测算方法和时间跨度，你会对“生产率涨了工资没涨”这件事有一个不依赖任何人转述的判断。
- 如果哪天你不再为账单失眠了，主动做一件事：保留算账的习惯。桑德斯说自己买菜还看价签，只是看得少了，他把这叫作“很容易掉进去的陷阱”。财务状况改善最隐蔽的代价，是对 50 美分的感知慢慢变钝。这个感知一旦丢了，你对很多事情的判断会跟着走偏，而不只是你自己的钱包。
回到那句他复述的建制派话术：世界就是这样，一直都会是这样，财富在我们手里，权力在我们手里，你别想别的了，你没有力量，放弃吧。
桑德斯 2016 年做的事，就是当着几千万人的面把这句话顶了回去。他输了初选，赢了 23 个州；输了两次总统大选，把近一百个进步派送进了国会。这笔账怎么算，取决于你用多长的尺子去量。
The ideas that I am talking about are ideas that are widely supported.
我所说的想法是得到广泛支持的想法。
00:00 Everything that I talk about raising them, minimum wage, health care for all, a tax system which demands the billionaires pay their fair share, those are all popular ideas, but people didn’t know.
我所说的一切关于提高工资、最低工资、全民医疗保健、要求亿万富翁缴纳公平份额的税收制度，这些都是流行的想法，但人们并不知道。
You got to run for president and have 20,000 people come out to your rallies and win 23 states.
你必须竞选总统，并有 20,000 人参加你的集会并赢得 23 个州。
They say, “Hmm.
他们说：“嗯。
Well, maybe those ideas are not so crazy after all, and we’ve got to entertain them.” The establishment doesn’t like that.
好吧，也许这些想法并没有那么疯狂，我们必须接受它们。”该机构不喜欢这样。
They really don’t.
他们真的不知道。
They want to tell you, and this is their main…
他们想告诉你，这是他们的主要……
This is how they succeed.
这就是他们成功的方式。
What they say, Lex, is, “The world is the way it is.
莱克斯，他们说的是，“世界就是这样。
It always will be this way.
永远都是这样。
We got the wealth.
我们得到了财富。
We got the power.
我们得到了权力。
And don’t think of anything else.
并且不要想任何其他事情。
This is the way it is.
事情就是这样。
You have no power.
你没有权力。
Give up.” They don’t say it quite that way, but that’s really what the intent is.
放弃吧。”他们虽然没有这么说，但这确实是他们的意图。
00:50 And what we showed is, guess what?
我们展示的是，你猜怎么着？
Running an outsider campaign, we took on the Democratic establishment, we came close to winning it, and we did win 23 states.
我们进行了一场局外人竞选，与民主党建制派展开较量，我们差一点就获胜了，而且我们确实赢得了 23 个州。
And the ideas that we’re talking about are the ideas that working class people, young people believe in.
我们正在谈论的想法是工人阶级、年轻人所相信的想法。
The following is a conversation with Bernie Sanders, senator from Vermont and two-time presidential candidate, both times as the underdog who, against the long odds, captivated the support and excitement of millions of people both on the left and the right.
以下是与佛蒙特州参议员、两届总统候选人伯尼·桑德斯(Bernie Sanders)的对话，他两次都是失败者，但在艰难的情况下，赢得了数百万左翼和右翼人士的支持和兴奋。
01:10 This is the Lex Fridman Podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
为了支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。
And now, dear friends, here’s Bernie Sanders.
现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是伯尼·桑德斯。
01:40 Growing up, did you ever think you’d be a politician?
从小到大，你有没有想过自己会成为一名政治家？
Nope.
没有。
01:43 Not in a million years.
一百万年内不会。
Yeah.
是的。
01:47 I know that you hate talking about yourself, which is rare for a politician, I would say.
我知道你讨厌谈论自己，我想说，这对于政治家来说是很少见的。
What’s your philosophy behind that?
这背后的理念是什么？
You like talking about the issues.
你喜欢谈论问题。
You like talking about-
你喜欢谈论——
Yeah, I do.
是的，我愿意。
01:55 Everybody talks about themselves.
每个人都在谈论自己。
It’s not about me.
这与我无关。
Nice guy, not a nice guy.
好人，不是好人。
What politics should be about?
政治应该关注什么？
Is the issues facing the people of our country, the people of the world, and how we’re going to address it.
是我们国家人民、世界人民面临的问题，以及我们将如何解决它。
That’s what it should be.
事情应该如此。
That said, there’s a interesting aspects to your life story.
也就是说，你的人生故事有一个有趣的方面。
02:10 For example, in 1963, you were very active in the Civil Rights Movement, got arrested even for protesting segregation in Chicago, and you attended the famous March on Washington where MLK gave his I Have a Dream speech.
例如，1963年，您在民权运动中非常活跃，甚至因为在芝加哥抗议种族隔离而被捕，您还参加了著名的华盛顿游行，MLK在那里发表了他的“我有一个梦想”演讲。
What was that like?
那是什么样子的？
It was extraordinary.
这是非凡的。
02:30 Took a bus ride down with fellow students in the University of Chicago, and there was a zillion people there.
和芝加哥大学的同学一起坐公共汽车，那里有无数人。
I’m not sure if it was the first time I’d ever been in Washington in my life, but it was a very impressive moment.
我不确定这是否是我一生中第一次来到华盛顿，但那是一个非常令人印象深刻的时刻。
And what he was talking about, people very often forget about that, it was not only racial justice, it was jobs.
人们常常忘记他所说的，这不仅是种族正义，也是就业机会。
Jobs and justice, that was the name of that rally.
就业与正义，这就是那次集会的名称。
And so it’s something I’ve never forgotten.
所以这是我永远不会忘记的事情。
What influence did he have on you?
他对你有什么影响？
02:59 What’d you learn about the way he enacted change in the world?
关于他改变世界的方式，你学到了什么？
King was a very impressive guy, more impressive, I think, than people think that he was.
金是一个非常令人印象深刻的人，我认为，比人们想象的更令人印象深刻。
03:06 And what he did is he created his movement from the bottom on up.
他所做的是自下而上地创造了他的运动。
So he developed real organization, grassroots organization which put pressure on communities and officials to end segregation, to open up voting patterns.
因此，他建立了真正的组织、草根组织，向社区和官员施加压力，要求结束种族隔离，开放投票模式。
And I think what has to also be remembered about King, which is really quite extraordinary, is he won the Nobel Peace Prize.
我认为关于金还必须记住的一点是，他获得了诺贝尔和平奖，这确实非常了不起。
And there was, oh, you’re great, you’re wonderful.
还有，哦，你太棒了，你太棒了。
But then to the end of his life, he took on Lyndon Johnson on the war in Vietnam.
但在他生命的最后一刻，他在越南战争中与林登·约翰逊较量。
And as soon as he did that, suddenly the editorial pages throughout America, the establishment papers no longer thought he was so great.
一旦他这样做了，整个美国的社论版面、当权报纸就不再认为他那么伟大了。
In fact, the message sent out, “You’re black.
事实上，这条信息发出的是：“你是黑人。
Deal with civil rights.
处理公民权利。
Don’t worry about foreign policy.
不用担心外交政策。
We’ll take care of that.” But he said, “If I talk about peace and nonviolence, I can’t sit back and allow what’s going on in Vietnam to continue without speaking out.”
我们会处理这件事。”但他说，“如果我谈论和平与非暴力，我就不能袖手旁观，让越南发生的事情继续下去而不发声。”
04:12 Incredible courage to do that.
这样做的勇气令人难以置信。
And by the way, when he was assassinated at a fighting for the rights of AFSCME workers, garbage, guys that delivered the garbage who were treated terribly, low wages, bad working conditions.
顺便说一句，当他在一场为 AFSCME 工人、垃圾、运送垃圾的权利而进行的斗争中被暗杀时，他们受到了恶劣的对待，工资低，工作条件恶劣。
And he went out to support their right to form a union.
他出去支持他们组建工会的权利。
That’s when he got killed.
就在那时他被杀了。
So on the war front, one of the things that people don’t often talk about, your work in politics.
因此，在战争前线，人们不常谈论的事情之一，就是你在政治上的工作。
04:33 You gave what I think is a truly brave speech on the Iraq War in 2002, I believe.
我相信，你在 2002 年的伊拉克战争问题上发表了一次我认为非常勇敢的演讲。
You voted no on the Iraq Resolution, you voted no on the Patriot Act, and you basically predicted very accurately what would happen if we go into Iraq.
你对伊拉克决议投了反对票，你对爱国者法案投了反对票，你基本上非常准确地预测了如果我们进入伊拉克会发生什么。
What was your thinking at the time behind those speeches, behind voting no on the Patriot Act on the Iraq Resolution?
您当时在这些演讲背后、对《伊拉克决议爱国者法案》投反对票背后的想法是什么？
It maybe ironically came out of maybe the war in Vietnam and the ease and lies that people told.
具有讽刺意味的是，这可能是由于越南战争以及人们所说的轻松和谎言而产生的。
05:09 We went into Vietnam under a lie.
我们在谎言下进入了越南。
We lost close to 60,000 Americans.
我们失去了近 60,000 名美国人。
Millions of people in the Vietnam and Cambodia died as a result of that.
越南和柬埔寨数百万人因此死亡。
So I think twice about it.
所以我三思而后行。
And then the war in Iraq, you had people like Dick Cheney and others telling us, “Oh, they have nuclear weapons and all that stuff.
然后是伊拉克战争，迪克·切尼和其他人告诉我们，“哦，他们拥有核武器和所有这些东西。
It’s the only way we can resolve the issue.” I didn’t believe it.
这是我们解决问题的唯一方法。”我不相信。
I didn’t agree with it.
我不同意。
And you’re right, it turns out, historically, I was right.
你是对的，事实证明，从历史上看，我是对的。
What’s the way to fight this thing that Martin Luther King tried to fight, which is the military industrial complex?
用什么方法来对抗马丁·路德·金试图对抗的军工联合体这个东西？
It’s huge.
这是巨大的。
05:54 It gets to the broader issue of where we are as a nation.
它涉及到我们作为一个国家所处的位置这一更广泛的问题。
And what I almost uniquely in Congress talk about is the fact that we are moving, Lex, to an oligarchic form of society.
我在国会几乎唯一谈论的是这样一个事实，莱克斯，我们正在走向寡头政治形式的社会。
And not a lot of people are familiar with that term, but what it means…
并不是很多人熟悉这个术语，但它的含义......
We talk about oligarchy in Russia.
我们谈论俄罗斯的寡头政治。
Oh, Putin is surrounded by the oligarchs.
哦，普京被寡头包围了。
Well, guess what?
嗯，你猜怎么着？
What do you think is happening in the United States?
您认为美国正在发生什么？
So what you have right now is an economy with more concentration of ownership than we’ve ever had.
因此，现在的经济体所有权比以往任何时候都更加集中。
All right?
好的？
That means whether it’s agriculture, transportation, healthcare, whatever it may be, fewer and fewer massively large corporations control what’s produced and the prices we pay.
这意味着，无论是农业、交通运输、医疗保健，还是其他领域，控制生产内容和支付价格的大型企业越来越少。
And then you look at our political system, and we don’t talk about it.
然后你看看我们的政治制度，我们不谈论它。
What is the reality of the political system today?
当今政治制度的现实是什么？
And that is that billionaires are spending huge amounts of money to buy this election.
那就是亿万富翁们花费巨资来收买这次选举。
In Trump’s campaign, you got three multi-billionaires spending over $200 million, three people.
在特朗普的竞选活动中，三位亿万富翁花费超过 2 亿美元，三个人。
Democrats have their billionaires.
民主党有他们的亿万富翁。
It’s not quite as concentrated.
它不太集中。
06:55 But at the end of the day, billionaires play an enormous role in terms of electing politicians and in Washington in determining what legislation gets seen and not seen.
但归根结底，亿万富翁在选举政客以及在华盛顿决定哪些立法会被看到和不被看到方面发挥着巨大作用。
But it’s not just single billionaires.
但这不仅仅是单身亿万富翁。
07:07 It’s companies with lobbyists.
这是有说客的公司。
You got it.
你明白了。
07:10 Let me give you one example, lobbyists.
让我给你们举一个例子，说客们。
We pay, in the United States, by far the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs.
在美国，我们支付的处方药价格是迄今为止世界上最高的。
This is an issue I’ve been working hard on with some success.
这是我一直在努力解决的一个问题，并取得了一些成功。
Take a wild and crazy guess how many lobbyists are there from the drug companies in Washington D.C.?
疯狂猜测一下，华盛顿特区的制药公司有多少说客？
Over a thousand.
一千多。
Over a thousand.
一千多。
07:29 There are 100 members of the Senate, 435 members of the House, 535 members of Congress.
参议院有100名议员，众议院有435名议员，国会议员有535名。
There are 1800 well-paid lobbyists representing the drug companies, including former leaders of the Republican and Democratic Party.
代表制药公司的有1800名高薪说客，其中包括共和党和民主党前领导人。
That is why, one of the reasons why we pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs.
这就是为什么我们为处方药支付世界上最高价格的原因之一。
Military-industrial complex, you’ve got a revolving door.
军工联合体，你有一扇旋转门。
People go from the military into the General Dynamics, into Lockheed Martin, and the other large companies, and what we see there is an institution in the Pentagon.
人们从军队进入通用动力公司，进入洛克希德马丁公司和其他大公司，我们看到五角大楼有一个机构。
We spend a trillion dollars a year on the Pentagon.
我们每年在五角大楼上花费一万亿美元。
It is the only federal agency that is not able to submit to an independent audit.
它是唯一无法接受独立审计的联邦机构。
So if you think there’s not massive fraud and waste and cost overruns in the Pentagon, you would be sorely mistaken.
因此，如果你认为五角大楼没有大规模的欺诈、浪费和成本超支，那你就大错特错了。
Do you think most politicians are corrupt in accepting the money, or is the system corrupt?
你认为大多数政客在接受金钱方面都腐败了，还是制度腐败了？
08:22 Or is it a bit of both?
或者两者兼而有之？
If the corrupt means that, “Hey, here’s $10,000, vote this way,” it doesn’t work like that.
如果腐败者的意思是，“嘿，这是 10,000 美元，这样投票”，那就行不通了。
08:30 Very, very rare.
非常非常罕见。
Occasionally.
偶尔。
Very, very rare.
非常非常罕见。
That’s corruption.
这就是腐败。
What happens is that if you are in a campaign…
发生的情况是，如果你参加竞选……
And right now, the amount of money that people have to raise, you’re running for Senate in Ohio, you’re talking about 50, $60 million.
现在，人们必须筹集的资金，你正在竞选俄亥俄州参议员，你谈论的是 50、6000 万美元。
Where the hell are you going to get that money?
你到底要到哪里去弄这些钱？
It’s not going to be $10 donations.
这不会是 10 美元的捐款。
You’re going to be surrounding yourself with people who have the money.
你周围会都是有钱的人。
You’re going to go $5,000 [inaudible 00:09:02], etc. So you surround yourself with those people who say, “Oh, these are my problems.
你会花 5,000 美元 [听不清 00:09:02]，等等。所以你周围的人都会说：“哦，这些是我的问题。
This is what I need, and this is…
这就是我所需要的，这就是……
I need a tax break for billionaires,” blah, blah, blah, blah.
我需要为亿万富翁减税。”等等，等等，等等。
So you live in that world.
所以你生活在那个世界里。
They are your financial support.
他们是你的经济支持。
09:15 They are, in a sense, your political base, so you’re very cognizant of what you do in terms of not upsetting them.
从某种意义上说，他们是你的政治基础，所以你非常清楚自己所做的事情不让他们感到不安。
So it’s not corruption in the sense of people taking envelopes with huge amounts of money to vote a certain way.
因此，这并不是人们拿着巨额资金以某种方式投票的腐败。
That very, very rarely, if ever, happens.
这种情况即使发生过，也是非常非常罕见的。
It is the power of big money to make politicians dependent on those folks.
正是大笔资金的力量让政客们依赖于这些人。
And that’s why when I ran for president, what I probably may be most proud of is the fact that we received millions and millions of campaign contributions averaging 27 bucks apiece, I think, in 2016.
这就是为什么当我竞选总统时，我最自豪的可能是我们在 2016 年收到了数以百万计的竞选捐款，我认为平均每人 27 美元。
Have companies, lobbyists ever tried to buy you, tried to influence you?
公司、游说者是否曾经试图收买你、试图影响你？
We don’t welcome them into our office.
我们不欢迎他们进入我们的办公室。
09:56 I do deal with these guys, but it’s usually on a confrontational tone.
我确实和这些人打交道，但通常都是对抗性的。
No, so they don’t come into my office very often telling me their problems.
不，所以他们不会经常到我的办公室告诉我他们的问题。
So how do we fix the system?
那么我们该如何修复系统呢？
10:04 How do we get money out of politics?
我们如何从政治中获取金钱？
Like many other issues, we don’t have to reinvent the wheel here.
与许多其他问题一样，我们不必在这里重新发明轮子。
10:09 It exists in other countries.
它存在于其他国家。
If you go to…
如果你去……
Every country has their own election system, but nobody has a system where billionaires can spend unlimited sums of money through super PACs to elect the candidates of their choice.
每个国家都有自己的选举制度，但没有一个制度可以让亿万富翁可以通过超级政治行动委员会花费无限的资金来选举他们所选择的候选人。
So first thing you got to do…
所以你要做的第一件事是……
One of the things, Lex, I found that the more important the issue, the less discussion there is.
其中之一，Lex，我发现问题越重要，讨论就越少。
The less important the issue, the more discussion there is.
问题越不重要，讨论就越多。
A number of years ago, the United States Supreme Court, in one of its more pathetic decisions, passed the Citizens United decision.
几年前，美国最高法院在一项更为可悲的判决中通过了公民联合案的判决。
What Citizens United Decisions said is you’re a multi-billionaire.
公民联合决策说的是你是亿万富翁。
You want the freedom.
你想要自由。
You’re a free person in a free country.
你是一个自由国家的自由人。
You want the freedom to buy the government, and how terrible it would be to deny you the freedom to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a campaign to elect the candidates.
你想要收买政府的自由，如果剥夺你花费数亿美元竞选候选人的自由，那将是多么可怕的事情。
And they said that’s your freedom, and that’s what Citizens United is about.
他们说这就是你的自由，这就是公民联合组织的宗旨。
11:10 We’ve got to end that.
我们必须结束这一切。
And in my view, we move to public funding of elections.
在我看来，我们将转向公共资助选举。
That means you want to run for governing, you want to run for Senate, show that you have some support, get $5 contributions from X number of people to show you you’re not a flake.
这意味着你想竞选执政，你想竞选参议院，表明你有一些支持，从 X 个人那里得到 5 美元的捐款，以表明你不是一个怪人。
You have some support and the government will pay a certain amount more, and there’ll be a limit in the amount of money that can be spent.
你有一些支持，政府会多支付一定的金额，而且可以花的钱是有限制的。
So it’ll be a real…
所以这将是一个真正的……
You can run against me and I’m not going to outspend you 10 to one.
你可以和我竞争，我不会比你花十比一的钱。
That’s what we should be moving toward in my view.
在我看来，这就是我们应该努力的方向。
How do we make that happen when there’s so much money in the system and the politicians owe to the people who paid for their election?
当系统中有这么多钱而政客欠那些为选举付费的人时，我们如何才能实现这一点呢？
11:39 Does it have to come from the very top, essentially sort of a really strong, popular populist president?
它是否必须来自最高层，本质上是一位真正强大、受欢迎的民粹主义总统？
But you’re right.
但你是对的。
11:54 You raised exactly the question.
你提出了这个问题。
If I’m getting a huge amount of money from billionaires, do you think I’m going to go out and announce, “I think billionaires should not be involved in buying elections”?
如果我从亿万富翁那里得到巨额资金，你认为我会出去宣布，“我认为亿万富翁不应该参与收买选举”吗？
I doubt that very much.
我对此非常怀疑。
So what you’re going to need, and you tell me if I’m missing something, but I pay attention, you don’t hear either of the major candidates talking about that issue, do you?
那么你需要什么，如果我遗漏了什么，你告诉我，但我注意了，你没有听到任何一位主要候选人谈论这个问题，是吗？
I think what happens is when an individual politician speaks out about it, they get punished, but I think this is a popular idea.
我认为当个别政客公开谈论此事时，他们会受到惩罚，但我认为这是一个流行的想法。
12:16 So if a lot of them speak out, that’s why if it came from the top, if a president was using a very large platform to basically speak out, it provides a safety blanket for the other politicians to get it out of the system.
因此，如果他们中的很多人都发声，这就是为什么如果它来自高层，如果总统使用一个非常大的平台来基本上发声，它就会为其他政客提供安全毯，将其从系统中清除。
But there has to be kind of a mass movement of it.
但必须有一场群众运动。
Yes, it does.
是的，确实如此。
12:40 And every place I go, I always speak about the issue, and it always…
我去的每个地方，我总是谈论这个问题，而且总是......
People understand it.
人们理解它。
You’re a Republican, you’re a Democrat, you’re progressive, you’re conservative, who really believes that we are a democracy when billionaires can spend tens and tens of millions of dollars to buy elections?
你是共和党人，你是民主党人，你是进步派，你是保守派，当亿万富翁可以花费数千万美元购买选举时，谁真的相信我们是民主国家？
So it is a very popular issue.
所以这是一个非常受欢迎的问题。
It’s important.
这很重要。
You’re right.
你说得对。
We need political leaders to be speaking out on that, but we need a grassroots movement to say, when somebody is at a town meeting, you’re running for the Senate, you’re running for the House, what’s your view on Citizens United?
我们需要政治领导人就此发声，但我们需要一场草根运动来表明，当有人参加城镇会议时，你正在竞选参议院，你正在竞选众议院，你对公民联合运动有何看法？
Are you prepared to vote to overturn that decision and move to public funding of elections?
您准备好投票推翻该决定并转向公共资助选举了吗？
Extraordinarily important.
异常重要。
So many of your policy proposals are quite radical.
您的许多政策建议都相当激进。
No, they’re not.
不，他们不是。
13:23 I beg to differ.
我不敢苟同。
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
[inaudible 00:13:26]
[听不清 00:13:26]
Well, they’re popular.
嗯，它们很受欢迎。
13:27 So what I mean is relative to what the way other politicians speak, it’s usually a little bit more moderate.
所以我的意思是相对于其他政客的说话方式，通常会温和一些。
So from everything you’ve learned from politics, is it better to go sort of radical, maybe we can come up with a different word, versus a more moderate, safe, ambiguous kind of policies?
因此，从你从政治中学到的一切来看，是否采取激进的政策更好，也许我们可以想出一个不同的词，而不是采取更温和、更安全、更模糊的政策？
Okay, let’s talk about it.
好吧，我们来谈谈吧。
13:45 Fair enough.
很公平。
We talked about one issue, very important, money in politics.
我们讨论了一个非常重要的问题，那就是政治中的金钱。
Money, yes.
钱，是的。
Getting big money out of politics, do you think that’s a radical idea?
从政治中获取大笔资金，你认为这是一个激进的想法吗？
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
13:55 It’s a popular idea.
这是一个流行的想法。
It’s an idea that makes sense.
这是一个有道理的想法。
But in order to implement it and actually make it happen, it requires to flip the system upside down, right?
但为了实现它并真正实现它，需要将系统颠倒过来，对吗？
In that sense, it’s radical.
从这个意义上说，这是激进的。
In that sense, it’s radical.
从这个意义上说，这是激进的。
14:09 But if you go walk down the street here and you say, “Do you think billionaires should be able to spend as much money as they want to buy politicians?” I would say nine out of 10 people will say, “That’s crazy.
但如果你走在这里的街道上，你会说：“你认为亿万富翁应该能够花尽可能多的钱来收买政客吗？”我想说十分之九的人会说：“这太疯狂了。
That’s not what America’s supposed to be about.” So in that sense, it’s certainly not radical.
这不是美国应该有的样子。”所以从这个意义上说，这当然不是激进的。
Let’s talk about healthcare.
我们来谈谈医疗保健。
Go out on the street, do it, or do a poll, and I’ve done the polling, is healthcare a human right?
到街上去做吧，或者做个民意调查，我已经做了民意调查，医疗保健是一项人权吗？
Should every American be able to go to a doctor when they need, regardless of their income?
每个美国人都应该能够在需要时去看医生，无论其收入如何吗？
Do you know what people say?
你知道人们怎么说吗？
I would say about 85, 90% of the people say, “Of course.” The idea that healthcare is a human right available to all exists, Lex, in every major country on earth except the United States.
我想说大约 85%、90% 的人会说：“当然。”莱克斯，医疗保健是所有人都享有的人权这一理念存在于地球上除美国以外的每个主要国家。
So you’re here with me in Burlington, Vermont, right?
那么你和我一起在佛蒙特州伯灵顿，对吧？
14:55 If you got a car, go 50 miles north to Canada, walk into Canada and ask people, “When you go to the hospital, how much does it cost you, which kind of bill?” And they say, “What are you talking about?
如果你有一辆车，向北行驶50英里到加拿大，走进加拿大，问人们，“当你去医院时，花了多少钱，什么样的账单？”他们说：“你在说什么？
Doesn’t cost us anything.
不需要我们付出任何代价。
It doesn’t cost us a nickel.” That’s the case in virtually every country in Europe.
我们不需要花一分钱。”欧洲几乎每个国家都是如此。
So the idea that healthcare should be available to all or that there should be no out-of-pocket expense because it’s a human right is widespread around the world and very much agreed to in this country.
因此，医疗保健应该向所有人提供，或者不应该自付费用，因为这是一项人权，这一想法在世界各地广泛传播，并且在这个国家得到了广泛认同。
Bottom line is that because of our corrupt political system, we have a healthcare system designed not to provide healthcare to all people, to make huge profits for the drug companies and the insurance companies.
底线是，由于我们腐败的政治制度，我们的医疗保健系统的设计目的并不是为所有人提供医疗保健，而是为制药公司和保险公司赚取巨额利润。
And that is what’s happening, and we got to change that system.
这就是正在发生的事情，我们必须改变这个系统。
So I’m a strong advocate, and I’ve led the effort on Medicare for all.
所以我是一个坚定的倡导者，并且我领导了全民医疗保险的努力。
Okay, let’s talk about Medicare for all.
好吧，我们来谈谈全民医疗保险。
15:50 If you could snap your fingers today and implement the best possible healthcare system for the United States of America, what would that look like?
如果你今天打个响指，为美利坚合众国实施最好的医疗保健系统，那会是什么样子？
Well, we have a pretty good system.
嗯，我们有一个非常好的系统。
What would that look like?
那会是什么样子？
Well, we have a pretty good system, not great, but a pretty good system in Medicare.
嗯，我们有一个非常好的系统，虽然不是很好，但在医疗保险方面是一个相当好的系统。
16:01 So it’s there for the elderly and Lyndon Johnson passed that in the 1960s, a huge step forward.
所以它是为老年人设计的，林登·约翰逊 (Lyndon Johnson) 在 20 世纪 60 年代就实现了这一目标，这是向前迈出的一大步。
It is being chopped away by the private insurance companies through Medicare Advantage.
私人保险公司正在通过 Medicare Advantage 取消这一政策。
But if you strengthen Medicare and you do away with the kind of deductibles that seniors now have to pay and you do away with other stuff, and you say basically right now you’re a senior in America, go to any doctor you want when you’re in the hospital, Medicare will pay the entire bill if you expand Medicare to cover dental hearing and vision, which it doesn’t now cover.
但如果你加强医疗保险，取消老年人现在必须支付的免赔额，取消其他费用，你说基本上现在你是美国的老年人，住院时可以去看任何你想看的医生，如果你将医疗保险扩大到涵盖牙科听力和视力，医疗保险将支付全部账单，而现在它不涵盖这些。
You do all of those things and then the next thing you do is say, okay, to be eligible for Medicare, now you have to be 65.
你做了所有这些事情，然后你做的下一件事就是说，好吧，为了有资格享受 Medicare，现在你必须年满 65 岁。
First year we’re going to lower it to 55, then we’ll lower it to 45, then we’ll lower it to 35.
第一年我们将把它降低到 55，然后我们将它降低到 45，然后我们将它降低到 35。
16:52 Then we’ll have everybody in the system.
然后我们将拥有系统中的每个人。
So I think in a four or five year period you can strengthen Medicare and have everybody in the system.
所以我认为在四五年内你可以加强医疗保险并使每个人都参与该系统。
And when you do that, and this is not just me talking, number of studies have pointed this out.
当你这样做时，这不仅仅是我在说，许多研究都指出了这一点。
When you take the profit motive out of it from the insurance companies and the drug companies, you can end up providing quality care to all people at no more than we’re spending right now.
当你从保险公司和制药公司那里剔除利润动机时，你最终可以为所有人提供优质的护理，而费用不超过我们现在的支出。
Because right now we are spending twice as much per personal healthcare as the people of any other nation.
因为现在我们在个人医疗保健方面的支出是任何其他国家人民的两倍。
Incredibly wasteful system.
令人难以置信的浪费系统。
So the way to pay for the system is to increase taxes.
所以支付系统费用的方式就是增加税收。
17:23 But you’re saying if you cut that cost and increase the taxes you’re saying it’s going to-
但你是说，如果你削减成本并增加税收，你会说——
Here’s the story, and I’ve gotten my share of 30 second ads attacking me on this.
故事是这样的，我也收到了 30 秒的广告来攻击我。
17:31 Bernie Sanders wants to raise your taxes on healthcare.
伯尼·桑德斯希望提高医疗保健税。
It’s true, in a progressive way.
确实如此，而且是以一种渐进的方式。
But right now, do you have health insurance?
但现在，你有健康保险吗？
Yes.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
17:46 Somebody’s paying for your health insurance.
有人为您支付健康保险费用。
It depends, if you are working, most people get their health insurance through their jobs, okay?
这取决于，如果你有工作，大多数人通过工作获得健康保险，好吗？
So if you’re working for a large company, your employer is paying your health insurance, and by the way, that comes out of your wages.
因此，如果您在一家大公司工作，您的雇主将支付您的健康保险，顺便说一句，这来自您的工资。
Healthcare costs in America are very high.
美国的医疗费用非常高。
And your employer will tell you, honestly, look, I can’t give you more than a 3% wage increase because I got a 10% increase in your healthcare costs.
老实说，你的雇主会告诉你，你看，我不能给你增加超过 3% 的工资，因为你的医疗费用增加了 10%。
You want that?
你想要那个吗？
Or if you’re union negotiating, you know what?
或者如果你正在进行工会谈判，你知道吗？
They’ll say, Hey, you want decent wages?
他们会说，嘿，你想要体面的工资吗？
We’re going to have to cut back on your healthcare.
我们将不得不削减你的医疗保健费用。
That’s what every union has to deal with every negotiating session.
这是每个工会每次谈判都必须处理的问题。
So we’re paying for it through employers out of pocket.
因此，我们通过雇主自掏腰包支付费用。
We pay through it through Medicare, Medicaid, veterans Administration, et cetera.
我们通过医疗保险、医疗补助、退伍军人管理局等支付费用。
What I am proposing is really not radical.
我的提议其实并不激进。
It’s what exists in Canada and other countries.
这就是加拿大和其他国家的情况。
18:34 It is publicly funded like the police departments and libraries are like public education.
它是公共资助的，就像警察部门和图书馆就像公共教育一样。
This is publicly funded in a progressive way.
这是以渐进方式公共资助的。
So right now, rather than paying out of your own pocket, if you are a family, let’s just say you’re self-employed right now and you have a couple of kids and a wife, it could cost you 15, $20,000 a year in insurance costs.
因此，现在，如果您是一个家庭，假设您现在是个体经营者，并且您有几个孩子和一个妻子，那么您每年可能要花费 15 至 20,000 美元的保险费用，而不是自掏腰包。
Well, that’s all eliminated.
好吧，这一切都被消除了。
Will you have to pay more in taxes?
您需要缴纳更多税款吗？
Of course you will.
你当然会的。
Maybe it depends on your income level, but it could be that you’d be paying $12,000 more in taxes, but not $20,000 more in premiums, co-payments and deductibles, you save money.
也许这取决于您的收入水平，但您可能会多支付 12,000 美元的税款，但保费、共付额和免赔额不会多支付 20,000 美元，您就可以省钱。
So it’s paying taxes rather than paying money to the insurance company.
所以它是纳税而不是向保险公司付钱。
You got a better deal through the tax system.
通过税收系统你可以得到更好的待遇。
So the most painful thing in today’s system is the surprise bills, the number one cause of bankruptcy and the psychological pain that comes from that, just worrying stress in debt.
因此，当今体系中最痛苦的事情是意外账单，这是破产的首要原因，以及由此带来的心理痛苦，只是令人担忧的债务压力。
You got it.
你明白了。
And just basically afraid constantly of getting sick because you don’t know if insurance is going to cover it.
基本上就是经常害怕生病，因为你不知道保险是否会承保。
19:36 And if you’re not insured, you don’t know how much it’s going to cost.
如果你没有保险，你就不知道要花多少钱。
So you’re not going to go to the hospital even if there’s something wrong with you, if there’s pain and all that.
所以，即使你有什么问题，如果有疼痛等等，你也不会去医院。
So you just live in a state of fear, psychological fear.
所以你只是生活在一种恐惧的状态中，心理上的恐惧。
That’s the number one problem.
这是第一个问题。
It’s just not just financial, psychological-
这不仅仅是经济上的，还有心理上的——
You got it.
你明白了。
19:55 Look, and I think you said it very well.
听着，我觉得你说得很好。
I’m chairman of the committee that deals with this stuff.
我是处理这件事的委员会的主席。
So I talk to a lot of doctors.
所以我和很多医生交谈。
And doctors in Vermont and all over this country tell me that they’re astounded at people walk into their offices much sicker than they should have been.
佛蒙特州和全国各地的医生告诉我，他们对走进办公室的人们病情比应有的严重程度感到惊讶。
And the doctor said, why didn’t you come here six months ago when you first felt your symptoms?
医生说，六个月前你第一次出现症状时为什么不来这里？
And they said, well, I have a high deductible.
他们说，好吧，我的免赔额很高。
I’ve a $10,000 deductible.
我有 10,000 美元的免赔额。
I don’t have any money to pay.
我没有钱付。
I’m uninsured.
我没有保险。
Some of those people don’t make it.
其中一些人没有成功。
Other people, and this is what is totally crazy, they end up in the hospital at huge expense to the system rather than getting the care they need when they needed it.
其他人，这是完全疯狂的，他们最终住院，给系统带来了巨大的费用，而不是在需要时得到他们需要的护理。
So that is how…
所以就是这样……
I’ll give you another example of it.
我再举一个例子。
We pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs.
我们为处方药支付了世界上最高的价格。
20:46 One out of four Americans can’t afford the drugs their doctors prescribe.
四分之一的美国人买不起医生开的药物。
So you walk into the doctor’s office, they say, okay, Look, you got this, that, and the other thing.
所以你走进医生的办公室，他们说，好吧，看，你得到了这个，那个，还有其他的东西。
Here’s a prescription.
这是一个处方。
You can’t afford to fill it.
你买不起它。
What happens?
会发生什么？
You get sicker.
你会病得更厉害。
You end up in the emergency room, which is an extremely expensive proposition.
你最终会被送进急诊室，这是一个非常昂贵的提议。
Or you end up in the hospital, rather than dealing with the problem when it occurs.
或者你最终会去医院，而不是在问题发生时处理它。
And what is not talked about…
还有什么没有谈到...
I mentioned earlier how we don’t talk about some of the major issues.
我之前提到过我们如何不谈论一些重大问题。
The estimate is that some 60,000 people in America die every single year unnecessarily because they can’t get to a doctor when they need because of financial reasons.
据估计，美国每年约有 60,000 人因经济原因无法在需要时去看医生而不必要地死亡。
And you want to hear even crazier, one out of four people who get cancer treatment in this country either go bankrupt or deplete their financial resources of their family.
你想听到更疯狂的消息，在这个国家接受癌症治疗的四分之一的人要么破产，要么耗尽家庭的经济资源。
21:33 So your point is, right.
所以你的观点是对的。
If somebody diagnoses you with cancer, you’re scared to death.
如果有人诊断出你患有癌症，你会害怕得要死。
You’re worried about how you’re going to live, you’re going to die, what’s going to happen?
你担心你将如何生活，你将要死，会发生什么？
And then on top of that, you got to worry about whether your family goes bankrupt.
除此之外，你还得担心你的家人是否会破产。
How insane and cruel is that?
这是多么疯狂和残酷的事情？
So to me, I think healthcare is what unites us all.
所以对我来说，我认为医疗保健是将我们所有人团结在一起的。
Everybody has family.
每个人都有家人。
They get sick, we all get born, we all die, we all want care.
他们生病了，我们都出生了，我们都死了，我们都需要照顾。
And we all have got to come together to create a system that works for all of us, not just the drug companies or the insurance companies.
我们所有人都必须齐心协力，创建一个适用于我们所有人的系统，而不仅仅是制药公司或保险公司。
There’s just so many stories and not even the horrific stories.
故事太多了，甚至连恐怖的故事都没有。
22:03 There’s countless horrific stories, but just basic stories of cost.
有无数可怕的故事，但只是基本的成本故事。
Like my friend Dr. Peter Attia has this story where he happens to be wealthy so he can afford it, but he had to take his son to the emergency room and the son was dehydrated and the bill was $6,000.
就像我的朋友 Peter Attia 博士有这样一个故事，他碰巧很富有，所以他能负担得起，但他不得不带儿子去急诊室，儿子脱水了，账单是 6,000 美元。
They just did a basic test and gave him an IV, a basic thing.
他们只是做了一个基本的测试并给他进行了静脉注射，这是一个基本的事情。
And he has really good insurance and the insurance covered $ 4,000 of it.
而且他有很好的保险，保险赔付了4000美元。
So he had at the end paid $2,000 for a basic emergency room visit.
因此，他最终支付了 2,000 美元用于基本的急诊室就诊。
And there’s a lot of families for whom that one visit for such a simple thing would be just financially devastating.
对于很多家庭来说，为了这样一件简单的事情而去一次就会造成经济上的毁灭性打击。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
22:43 People know that, and you know what they say?
人们都知道这一点，你知道他们说什么吗？
I don’t feel well today.
我今天感觉不太舒服。
Something’s wrong.
有问题。
I ain’t going to go to that emergency room because I don’t want a $6,000 bill.
我不会去急诊室，因为我不想要 6,000 美元的账单。
And what happens?
会发生什么？
He had insurance that paid two thirds of it, right?
他有保险支付三分之二，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
So what happens if he didn’t?
那么如果他不这样做会发生什么呢？
22:58 What happens if he didn’t have money?
如果他没有钱怎么办？
He’d be handed by bill collectors for the rest of his life.
他的余生都会被收债人交给他。
So it is a disgusting system.
所以这是一个令人厌恶的系统。
It is an inhumane system, but the insurance companies and the drug companies are very powerful and they make a lot of campaign contributions, have a lot of lobbyists than we are where we are.
这是一个不人道的制度，但保险公司和制药公司非常强大，他们做出了大量的竞选捐款，拥有比我们更多的说客。
But I think the American people want fundamental changes there.
但我认为美国人民希望那里发生根本性的变化。
So that’s another good example of a really popular idea that is not implemented because of the money in politics.
这是另一个很好的例子，说明一个非常受欢迎的想法由于政治上的金钱而没有得到实施。
You got it.
你明白了。
23:29 That’s wonderful.
太棒了。
And I’ll tell you that not only that, not only is it not implemented because of money, it’s not even discussed.
我告诉你，不仅如此，不仅因为钱没有实施，甚至没有讨论过。
All right?
好的？
So I’m saying here and no one disputes me, we are spending twice as much per person on healthcare, right?
所以我在这里说，没有人质疑我，我们在医疗保健上的人均支出是原来的两倍，对吗？
And yet 85 million Americans are uninsured or underinsured, and our life expectancy is lower than virtually every other major country.
然而，8500 万美国人没有保险或保险不足，而且我们的预期寿命几乎低于所有其他主要国家。
Do you think that might be an issue that we’d be discussing?
您认为这可能是我们要讨论的问题吗？
Again, if a single politician discusses it to get punished for it.
同样，如果一个政治家讨论它就会因此受到惩罚。
23:59 So there needs to be a mass movement and probably, I mean from my perspective, it has to come from the very top.
因此，需要一场群众运动，而且从我的角度来看，它可能必须来自最高层。
It has to come from the president.
它必须来自总统。
And the president has to be a populist president where they don’t care about the parties with the rich people.
总统必须是一位民粹主义总统，他们不关心与富人的政党。
They just speak out because they know it’s a popular message and they know it’s the right thing.
他们只是说出来，因为他们知道这是一条受欢迎的信息，而且他们知道这是正确的事情。
So speaking of that, you had a historic campaign run for president in 2016, and in the eyes of many people, mine included, you were screwed over by the DNC, especially the WikiLeaks emails showed.
说到这里，你在 2016 年进行了一场历史性的总统竞选，在包括我在内的很多人眼中，你被民主党全国委员会搞砸了，尤其是维基解密的电子邮件显示。
What’s your just looking back feelings about that?
回想起来，你对此有何感想？
And you’re angry, are upset?
你生气了，心烦意乱了吗？
Yeah, of of course I’m angry and of course I’m upset.
是的，我当然生气，当然我不高兴。
24:47 But when you take on, in this case, the democratic establishment who have controlled that party forever, moneyed interests of the Democratic Party, you’re taking on corporate America when you’re taking on the corporate media.
但在这种情况下，当你对抗永远控制该党的民主建制派、民主党的金钱利益时，当你对抗企业媒体时，你就是在对抗美国企业界。
And when you’re calling for a political revolution that creates the government that works for all and not just the few, the opposition is going to be extraordinary.
当你呼吁进行一场政治革命，创建一个为所有人服务而不仅仅是为少数人服务的政府时，反对派将会是非同寻常的。
But what I am extremely proud of from that campaign in 2020 as well, is that we took on the anointed candidate of the establishment and we showed, despite the fact the entire establishment I had in the Senate, I had one supporter, there were 50 Democrats, I had one supporter, I had no governor supporting me.
但我对 2020 年的竞选感到非常自豪的是，我们与建制派指定的候选人进行了较量，我们表明，尽管我在参议院拥有整个建制派，但我有一名支持者，有 50 名民主党人，我有一名支持者，但没有州长支持我。
I think maybe a few people in the house.
我想房子里可能有几个人。
25:46 But we took on the whole political establishment and we did…
但我们接受了整个政治机构，我们做到了……
We got millions of votes.
我们获得了数百万选票。
And the ideas that we brought forth were ideas that they had to eventually deal with in one way or another.
我们提出的想法是他们最终必须以某种方式处理的想法。
And if you look at the American Rescue Plan, which I’m proud to have helped write during the midst of COVID, a lot of the ideas that we fought forward were implemented in that bill.
如果你看一下《美国救援计划》，我很自豪能够在新冠疫情期间帮助起草该计划，你会发现我们所争取的许多想法都在该法案中得到了实施。
And I want to make them obviously permanent.
我想让它们显然是永久性的。
And you almost won.
而你差一点就赢了。
26:12 And a lot of people thought that you would win against Donald Trump.
很多人认为你会击败唐纳德·特朗普。
I think we would’ve.
我想我们会的。
26:17 I think would’ve.
我想会的。
Trump is a very…
特朗普是一个非常…
I think he’s a little bit crazy between you and me, but he is a smart politician.
我认为他在你我之间有点疯狂，但他是一个聪明的政治家。
And he’s appealing to a lot of the anger that working class people feel.
他还激起了工人阶级的愤怒。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
Working class people should feel angry, but they should make sure that their anger is directed in the right direction and not against people who are even worse off the nail, which is what demagogues like Trump always do.
工人阶级应该感到愤怒，但他们应该确保他们的愤怒指向正确的方向，而不是针对那些更糟糕的人，而这正是像特朗普这样的煽动者总是做的事情。
So I think we had, as I went around the country then, and now we have a lot of support from working class people who understand that there is something wrong.
所以我认为，当我当时走遍全国时，现在我们得到了工人阶级的大力支持，他们明白出了什么问题。
26:57 And this is an incredible fact that no one talks about.
这是一个令人难以置信的事实，没有人谈论。
All right, I’m going to ask you a question.
好吧，我要问你一个问题。
Are you ready for this Lex?
你准备好迎接这个莱克斯了吗？
Let’s go.
我们走吧。
Here we go.
开始了。
27:03 Over the last 50 years, there’s been a massive increase in worker productivity as a result of technology, right?
在过去的 50 年里，技术的进步极大地提高了工人的生产力，对吗？
Everyone agrees to that.
大家都同意这一点。
And I don’t know exactly what is, but the worker today is producing a lot more than the work of 50 years ago doing something similar.
我不知道到底是什么，但今天的工人所做的工作比 50 年前类似的工作要多得多。
Is the worker today in real inflation accounted for dollars making more money than that work 50 years ago?
今天的工人在实际通货膨胀下赚的钱是否比 50 年前的工作多？
Well, there’s a lot of close arguments there, but your point is well taken.
嗯，那里有很多激烈的争论，但你的观点得到了很好的接受。
27:27 It’s either the same or a little bit higher or a little bit lower, depending on the statistics.
它要么相同，要么稍高或稍低，具体取决于统计数据。
It has not increased significantly, and the wealth inequality has increased significantly.
并没有明显增加，财富不平等却明显加剧。
That is the point.
这就是重点。
27:40 So you would think that if a worker is producing a lot more, that worker would be better off, would be working lesser hours, et cetera.
因此，您可能会认为，如果一名工人生产更多，那么该工人的生活就会更好，工作时间会更少，等等。
That hasn’t been the case.
事实并非如此。
And what happened in that 50 years is according to the RAND Corporation, there has been a 50 trillion, trillion with a T, redistribution of wealth in the bottom 90% to the top 1%.
根据兰德公司的数据，这 50 年发生的事情是，底层 90% 的财富重新分配给了顶层 1%，有 50 万亿美元。
So you got CEOs today making 300 times more than their workers.
所以今天 CEO 的收入是员工的 300 倍。
You got three people on top owning more wealth on the bottom half of American society.
三个人在美国社会的下半部分拥有更多的财富。
So that’s why people are angry and they’re worried that their kids may have a lowest standard of living than they in the country in the history of the world.
这就是为什么人们感到愤怒，他们担心他们的孩子的生活水平可能比他们在世界历史上的国家的生活水平最低。
So there’s a lot of anger out there, and I think we tap some of that anger in a constructive way, essentially saying, you know what?
因此，外面有很多愤怒，我认为我们以建设性的方式利用其中一些愤怒，本质上是说，你知道吗？
We don’t need so few to have so much in wealth and power.
我们不需要这么少的人就能拥有这么多的财富和权力。
Let’s distribute it more fairly in America.
让我们在美国更公平地分配它。
I got to get back to 2016 because it’s such a historic moment.
我必须回到 2016 年，因为这是一个历史性的时刻。
28:36 So there’s a lot of fans of yours that wanted you to keep fighting.
所以有很多你的粉丝希望你继续战斗。
Because you forgave in the end the establishment and joined them in support.
因为你最终原谅了建制派并加入了他们的支持。
And your fans wanted to keep fighting for a takeover, for a progressive takeover, the Democratic Party.
你们的粉丝希望继续为接管民主党而奋斗，为进步的接管而斗争。
If you just look back and had to do it all over again, what would you do different?
如果你回顾过去，不得不重来一遍，你会做什么不同的事情？
Well, by the way, in terms of a takeover of the Democratic Party, we did try, we ran…
嗯，顺便说一句，就接管民主党而言，我们确实尝试过，我们跑过……
29:02 Do you know who Keith Ellison is?
你知道基思·埃里森是谁吗？
Keith is now the Attorney General of the state of Minnesota.
基思现任明尼苏达州总检察长。
He’s doing a great job.
他做得很好。
Really one of the outstanding attorneys generals in the country.
确实是该国杰出的总检察长之一。
And Keith was then a member of Congress and we ran Keith to become the head of the DNC and the establishment for the President of the United States on down went crazy.
基思当时是国会议员，我们让基思成为民主党全国委员会的主席，美国总统的建立变得疯狂。
And they beat him by a few votes, not a whole lot.
他们以几票的优势击败了他，而不是很多票。
Look you faced…
看看你面对...
And that’s the exact same position that many of us are in right today.
这与我们许多人今天所处的处境完全相同。
So people say, well, why did you support Hillary Clinton?
所以人们会说，那么，你为什么支持希拉里·克林顿？
29:42 Yeah, what’s the alternative?
是啊，还有什么选择呢？
Donald Trump?
唐纳德·特朗普？
I think Donald Trump is an extremely dangerous person trying to undermine American democracy.
我认为唐纳德·特朗普是一个极其危险的人，试图破坏美国的民主。
So I can’t support him.
所以我不能支持他。
Hillary Clinton, obviously his views are very, very different than mine.
希拉里·克林顿，显然他的观点与我的观点非常非常不同。
But that in that moment, that’s where politics becomes really tricky and it ain’t easy.
但在那一刻，政治就变得非常棘手，而且并不容易。
And sometimes you have to do things that you’re not really all that excited about.
有时你必须做一些你并不真正感兴趣的事情。
But I think it was right to try to do what I could to prevent Trump from getting elected.
但我认为尽我所能阻止特朗普当选是正确的。
And in 2020 I did the same with Biden and we had more success with Biden than we had with Clinton.
2020 年，我对拜登也做了同样的事情，我们在拜登身上取得的成功比在克林顿身上取得的成功还要多。
Well, there’s this interesting story about a long time coming meeting between you and Obama in 2018, I believe.
嗯，我相信，有一个关于您和奥巴马 2018 年即将举行的会面的有趣故事。
30:21 So Ari Rabin-Havt, who was a former deputy campaign manager, wrote a great book I would say about you called The Fighting Soul: On the Road with Bernie Sanders.
因此，前竞选副经理阿里·拉宾-哈夫特（Ari Rabin-Havt）写了一本很棒的书，我想说的是关于你的，书名叫《战斗的灵魂：与伯尼·桑德斯一起在路上》。
And he tells many great stories, but one of them is your meeting with Obama.
他讲述了许多精彩的故事，其中之一就是您与奥巴马的会面。
And he says that Obama told you, Bernie…
他说奥巴马告诉你了，伯尼……
I wish I could do a good Obama impression.
我希望我能给奥巴马留下好印象。
Bernie, you’re an Old Testament prophet.
伯尼，你是旧约先知。
A moral voice for our party giving us guidance.
我们党的道德声音为我们提供指导。
Here’s the thing though, prophets don’t get to be king.
但事情是这样的，先知不能成为国王。
Kings have to make choices, prophets don’t.
国王必须做出选择，而先知则不需要。
Are you willing to make those choices?
你愿意做出这些选择吗？
Basically Obama’s making the case that you have to sort of moderate your approach in order to win.
基本上，奥巴马的观点是，你必须调整自己的做法才能获胜。
So was Obama right?
那么奥巴马是对的吗？
Look, and again, that’s why politics is very, very fascinating.
再说一次，这就是政治非常非常令人着迷的原因。
31:14 Sometimes you can run and lose and you really win if your goal is not just individual power, but transforming society.
有时，如果你的目标不仅仅是个人力量，而是改变社会，你可能会失败，但你真的会赢。
One of my heroes, you mentioned Martin Luther King Jr. who is one of my heroes.
我的英雄之一，你提到了马丁·路德·金，他是我的英雄之一。
Another one of my heroes is Eugene Victor Debs.
我的另一位英雄是尤金·维克多·德布斯。
Does that ring a bell?
这是否敲响了警钟？
Yeah.
是的。
31:38 Yes.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
For many reasons, yes.
出于多种原因，是的。
All right.
好的。
31:41 Many listeners may not know who Debs was.
许多听众可能不知道德布斯是谁。
Debs was a union organizer in the early 1900s, helped form the American Railway Union, ran for president, I think five times.
德布斯是 1900 年代初的工会组织者，帮助组建了美国铁路工会，竞选总统，我记得五次。
Ran the last time while he was in a jail cell because of his opposition to World War I and got a million…
上次跑步时，他因为反对一战而被关在牢房里，并得到了一百万......
32:00 …
……
while he was in a jail cell because of his opposition to World War I and got a million votes doing that.
当时他因为反对第一次世界大战而被关进监狱，并因此获得了一百万张选票。
Debs lost badly in every race that he ran.
德布斯在他参加的每场比赛中都惨败。
In 1932, Franklin Delano Roosevelt ran for president.
1932 年，富兰克林·德拉诺·罗斯福竞选总统。
And much of what Roosevelt ended up doing was at least some of what Debs had talked about.
罗斯福最终所做的大部分事情至少是德布斯谈到的一些内容。
Debs helped lay the groundwork for ideas.
德布斯帮助奠定了想法的基础。
So sometimes you can lose and win if you’re into transforming society.
因此，如果你要改变社会，有时你可能会输，也可能会赢。
What my view is, where I disagree with Obama, is I think you have got to raise consciousness among ordinary people.
我的观点是，我不同意奥巴马的观点，我认为你必须提高普通民众的意识。
And when people know what’s going on and are prepared in an organized way to fight for change, they can make incredible changes.
当人们知道正在发生的事情并准备好以有组织的方式争取变革时，他们就可以做出令人难以置信的改变。
And we’ve seen that in recent years.
近年来我们已经看到了这一点。
Today, we take for granted we have a woman running for president of the United States I’m supporting.
今天，我们理所当然地认为我支持一位女性竞选美国总统。
We have had other women running for president.
我们还有其他女性竞选总统。
32:54 We have women governors and senators.
我们有女性州长和参议员。
Not so many years ago in the United States Senate, there were 98 men, two women.
就在几年前，美国参议院有 98 名男性，两名女性。
Even before that 1920, it was when women got the right to vote.
甚至在 1920 年之前，女性就获得了投票权。
How did that change?
这是怎么改变的？
How did women’s role in society change?
女性在社会中的角色发生了怎样的变化？
It changed because women and their male allies stood up in force.
情况发生了变化，因为女性和她们的男性盟友纷纷站出来。
Gay rights, old enough to remember that anybody I knew who was gay, you think they would talk about it?
同性恋权利，年纪大到足以记得我认识的任何同性恋者，你认为他们会谈论它吗？
Come out about it?
出来说一下吗？
No they wouldn’t.
不，他们不会。
That’s changed.
那已经改变了。
We have seen in terms of civil rights, massive changes.
我们在公民权利方面看到了巨大的变化。
Change happens when people at the grassroots level demand that…
当基层人民要求时，变化就会发生……
We talked about a healthcare a moment ago, we will get universal Medicare for all when millions of people make it clear that’s what they want.
我们刚才谈到了医疗保健，当数百万人明确表示他们想要什么时，我们将为所有人提供全民医疗保险。
So I believe politics starts at the grassroots level, and that’s how you got to bring about change.
所以我相信政治从基层开始，这就是带来变革的方式。
So just to go back to Obama though, in many ways, he too is a singular historic figure in American politics who has brought about a lot of change.
回到奥巴马，从很多方面来说，他也是美国政治中一位独特的历史人物，带来了很多变化。
33:42 He’s a symbol I think that would be remembered for a long time.
我认为他是一个会被人们长久铭记的象征。
What do you admire most about Obama?
您最欣赏奥巴马的什么？
Well, I know him.
嗯，我认识他。
33:59 We’re not best friends, but I know him well and we chat every once in a while.
我们不是最好的朋友，但我很了解他，我们偶尔会聊天。
First of all, don’t underestimate what it was in 2008 to be the first black president in the history of this country.
首先，不要低估 2008 年成为这个国家历史上第一位黑人总统的情况。
And I think few would deny that he’s an extraordinarily intelligent guy.
我想很少有人会否认他是一个非常聪明的人。
Very, very articulate, one of the best speakers that there is in America, and that he and his family, and again, it’s a lot harder than it looks.
非常非常善于表达，是美国最好的演讲者之一，他和他的家人，再说一次，这比看起来要困难得多。
He and his family for eight years, that’s his wife Michelle and his kids, really held that office in a way that earned I think the respect of the American people, even if people disagreed him politically.
他和他的家人，即他的妻子米歇尔和他的孩子，在担任这个职务八年里，我认为确实赢得了美国人民的尊重，即使人们在政治上不同意他。
So he deserves…
所以他值得……
And again, don’t underestimate.
再说一次，不要低估。
I think years ago there were people who said, “A black president in our lifetimes never going to happen.
我想几年前有人说过：“在我们的有生之年永远不会出现一位黑人总统。
Can’t happen.
不可能发生。
Too racist the country.”
这个国家的种族主义太严重了。”
35:00 He did it.
他做到了。
And that is a huge accomplishment.
这是一项巨大的成就。
And I think he has had some significant achievements in his presidential tenure.
我认为他在总统任期内取得了一些重大成就。
He and I did disagree on a number of issues.
他和我在很多问题上确实存在分歧。
I think he will tell you, I think his public stance is that, yeah, if you have to start all over again, he would do Medicare for all single payer.
我想他会告诉你，我认为他的公开立场是，是的，如果你必须重新开始，他会为所有单一付款人提供医疗保险。
But where we are right now, the best he could do is the Affordable Care Act.
但我们现在所处的位置，他能做的最好的事情就是《平价医疗法案》。
Well, we disagree on that and we disagree on other things, but I think he deserves an enormous amount of credit for what he has accomplished.
好吧，我们在这一点上存在分歧，在其他事情上也存在分歧，但我认为他所取得的成就值得获得巨大的赞誉。
And he, like you, also gave a damn good speech opposing the Iraq war before running for president.
他和你一样，在竞选总统之前也发表了一场非常好的反对伊拉克战争的演讲。
35:36 And that takes courage.
这需要勇气。
Yes, it does.
是的，确实如此。
But then it also shows that once you get into office, it’s not so easy to oppose or to work against the military industrial complex.
但这也表明，一旦你上任，反对或对抗军工联合体就没那么容易了。
It is very hard.
这是非常困难的。
35:53 People do not fully appreciate how powerful the establishment is, whether it is the healthcare industry, whether it’s the military industrial complex, whether it’s the fossil fuel industry.
人们并没有完全认识到这个机构有多么强大，无论是医疗保健行业，无论是军事工业综合体，还是化石燃料行业。
These people have unlimited amounts of money.
这些人拥有无限量的金钱。
They’re very smart lobbyists in Washington D.C, and they’re very, very greedy people.
他们是华盛顿特区非常聪明的说客，而且是非常非常贪婪的人。
They want it all.
他们想要这一切。
I have to ask you about capitalism, the pros and cons.
我必须问你关于资本主义的利弊。
36:16 So you wrote a book, It’s Okay To Be Angry About Capitalism.
所以你写了一本书，《对资本主义感到愤怒没关系》。
That is a thorough, rigorous criticism of I would say hypercapitalism, a certain kind of capitalism that you argue that we are existing in today in the United States.
这是对超级资本主义的彻底、严格的批评，超级资本主义是你认为我们今天在美国存在的某种资本主义。
But a lot of people would attribute to capitalism all the amazing technological innovations over the past 70 plus years that have contributed to increase in quality of life in GDP, decrease in poverty, decrease in infant mortality, increase in expected life expectancy.
但很多人会把过去 70 多年来所有令人惊叹的技术创新归功于资本主义，这些创新促进了 GDP 中生活质量的提高、贫困的减少、婴儿死亡率的降低、预期寿命的延长。
So how do you see the tension, the pros of capitalism and the cons of capitalism?
那么您如何看待这种紧张局势、资本主义的优点和缺点呢？
Some of my European friends, they say Bernie, in the United States, you’re considered to be very radical.
我的一些欧洲朋友，他们说伯尼，在美国，你被认为非常激进。
37:09 If you were here in France or Denmark or someplace, you’d be kind of mainstream left guy.
如果你在法国、丹麦或其他地方，你就会成为主流左派。
Not all that radical.
并不是那么激进。
So this is what I think.
这就是我的想法。
I mean, I think the best that we could do right now, where we are right now, it’s the great a society which does two things.
我的意思是，我认为我们现在能做的最好的事情就是我们现在所处的位置，这是一个能做两件事的伟大社会。
It encourages innovation, but at the same time, it makes sure that all people in a wealthy nation have a decent standard of living.
它鼓励创新，但同时确保富裕国家的所有人都享有体面的生活水平。
And some countries, if you look at Scandinavia, and this shocks people because we don’t talk about this at all.
在一些国家，如果你看看斯堪的纳维亚半岛，你会发现这让人们感到震惊，因为我们根本不谈论这个。
So in Scandinavia it has been the case, Denmark, Finland, Norway for years that people have healthcare.
因此，在斯堪的纳维亚半岛、丹麦、芬兰、挪威，多年来人们都享有医疗保健。
That’s not a big thing.
这不是什么大事。
You end up in the hospital.
你最终进了医院。
So what?
所以呢？
They don’t pay a bill.
他们不支付账单。
38:01 And this shocks people.
这让人们感到震惊。
In America right now, we have people who will get one week, two weeks off paid vacation.
现在在美国，我们有人可以享受一两周的带薪假期。
Sometimes people get nothing.
有时人们什么也得不到。
You know that there are people out there who have vacation all.
你知道有些人整天都在度假。
In Germany, you got six weeks paid vacation and other holidays as well.
在德国，你有六周的带薪假期和其他假期。
People are shocked by that.
人们对此感到震惊。
In America, we don’t have paid family and medical leave.
在美国，我们没有带薪家庭假和病假。
The only major country not to do it.
唯一没有这么做的大国。
Other countries, your wife gets sick, you stay home with her, your kids get sick, not a big deal.
在其他国家，你的妻子生病了，你和她呆在家里，你的孩子生病了，没什么大不了的。
You get a certain amount of paid family and medical leave.
您可以获得一定数量的带薪家庭假和病假。
Cost of prescription drugs are far more affordable.
处方药的费用要便宜得多。
So what you want to do is create what’s called a social safety net.
所以你要做的就是创建所谓的社会安全网。
That means I don’t care what your income is, of course you’re going to have healthcare is the human right.
这意味着我不在乎你的收入是多少，当然你会享受医疗保健是人权。
Of course you’re going to have housing that is affordable.
当然，您将拥有负担得起的住房。
38:51 Of course your kids are going to have great quality education from child care to university without much cost.
当然，您的孩子将无需花费太多费用即可接受从托儿所到大学的优质教育。
Every country has a little bit different.
每个国家都有一点不同。
But there are countries in the world right now, I think in Germany, I think college is now tuition-free, as I recall, for obvious reasons.
但现在世界上有一些国家，我想在德国，我认为大学现在是免费的，我记得，原因很明显。
They want to have the best educated workforce they can.
他们希望拥有受过最好教育的劳动力。
So in terms of government playing a role in a civilized democratic society of providing all basic needs, healthcare, education, housing, retirement benefits, yes, that is what we’ve got to do.
因此，就政府在文明民主社会中发挥作用来提供所有基本需求、医疗保健、教育、住房、退休福利而言，是的，这就是我们必须做的。
Now, does that mean then that the government is going to run every mom and pop store on the corner?
现在，这是否意味着政府将经营街角的每一家夫妻店？
Of course not.
当然不是。
You want innovation, you want to go out and start a business, produce a product, good luck to you.
你想要创新，你想要出去创业，生产产品，祝你好运。
Make money.
赚钱。
But on the other hand, in terms of even making money, we want you to be able to do that.
但另一方面，就赚钱而言，我们希望你能够做到这一点。
Come up with good products, good services.
拿出好的产品、好的服务。
39:46 But do I think you should end up with $100 billion?
但我认为你最终应该得到 1000 亿美元吗？
No, I don’t.
不，我不。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
It’s funny.
这很有趣。
I did an interview with Bill Gates, who’s I think the third-wealthiest guy in the country, struggling behind Musk and Bezos I think, and he’s only worth a hundred plus billion.
我采访了比尔·盖茨，我认为他是美国第三富有的人，在马斯克和贝索斯之后苦苦挣扎，但他的身家只有一千多亿。
But he gets by.
但他挺过来了。
And I said to him, “Bill,” he was supposed to ask me questions.
我对他说，“比尔，”他应该问我问题。
I asked him the question, I said, “Bill, tell me something.
我问他这个问题，我说：“比尔，告诉我一些事情。
You’re an innovator with Microsoft and all that stuff.
你是微软之类的创新者。
Did you know that you’d become a multi-billionaire?
你知道你会成为亿万富翁吗？
And was that what motivated you?” And he said, “No.” And I believe he was honestly, “I loved doing whatever.
这就是你的动力吗？”他说：“不。”我相信他是诚实的，“我喜欢做任何事。
I loved programming.” He was a kid.
我喜欢编程。”他还是个孩子。
He started doing that.
他开始这样做。
He loved it.
他喜欢它。
He was motivated by it.
他因此受到激励。
Do you think that there are scientists out there who working day and night trying to develop drugs to deal with Alzheimer’s or cancer that they motivate?
您是否认为有些科学家夜以继日地努力开发药物来治疗阿尔茨海默氏症或他们引发的癌症？
Boy, if I come up with this drug, I’m going to become a billionaire?
天哪，如果我想出这种药，我就会成为亿万富翁？
40:39 So I think we want to reward success.
所以我认为我们想要奖励成功。
Fine, but you don’t need a billion dollars.
好吧，但你不需要十亿美元。
We want people to get satisfaction from what they accomplish, the work they’re doing, whether it’s cleaning the street or developing a new drug.
我们希望人们从他们所取得的成就、所做的工作中获得满足，无论是清洁街道还是开发新药。
So I think we have gone a little bit far, and you’re right, in talking about the book was an attack on I call, you call hypercapitalism or ubercapitalism.
所以我认为我们已经走得有点远了，你是对的，谈论这本书是对我所说的“超级资本主义”或“超级资本主义”的攻击。
But right now, and this is not an American issue, this is a global issue.
但现在，这不是美国问题，而是全球问题。
It’s not an accident that Musk is over there in Saudi Arabia talking to the trillionaire families in the mid-East, these guys, Putin and his friends, you got probably not more than five, 10,000 extraordinarily wealthy families who have unbelievable economic power over 7 billion people on this planet.
马斯克在沙特阿拉伯与中东的万亿富翁家庭交谈并非偶然，这些人，普京和他的朋友们，可能不超过五个、一万个非常富有的家庭，他们在这个星球上拥有超过 70 亿人口的令人难以置信的经济实力。
Well, Elon Musk is actually an interesting case because he’s investing all the money back into the businesses.
埃隆·马斯克实际上是一个有趣的例子，因为他将所有资金都投资回了企业。
41:24 So I think there is a balance to be struck and you just spoke to it, which is we can still celebrate even big companies that are bringing wealth to the world, that are building cool stuff, that are improving quality of life.
所以我认为需要达到一个平衡，你刚才谈到了这一点，那就是我们仍然可以庆祝即使是那些为世界带来财富、正在建造很酷的东西、正在提高生活质量的大公司。
But we can question of why is it that the working class does not have a living wage?
但我们可以问，为什么工人阶级没有生活工资呢？
In many cases, and sort of trying to find that balance.
在很多情况下，并试图找到这种平衡。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
41:52 Look, I am no great fan of Elon Musk, especially in the role that he’s playing right now in Trump’s campaign.
看，我不太喜欢埃隆·马斯克，尤其是他现在在特朗普竞选活动中扮演的角色。
But is he a brilliant guy?
但他是一个才华横溢的人吗？
Of course he is.
当然是。
Does he work like a dog?
他像狗一样工作吗？
Of course he does.
他当然知道。
Does he come up with these incredible innovations in companies?
他是否在公司中提出了这些令人难以置信的创新？
Yes, he does.
是的，他确实如此。
Does he deserve credit for that?
他值得赞扬吗？
Yeah, he does.
是的，他确实如此。
But even in terms of encouraging innovation, I would hope that we are focusing on the important issues.
但即使在鼓励创新方面，我也希望我们能够关注重要的问题。
I would love to see great innovators figure out how we build the affordable housing that we need, come up with the great drugs that we need to solve many of the terrible illnesses that plague people.
我很高兴看到伟大的创新者弄清楚我们如何建造我们需要的经济适用房，如何研制出我们需要的伟大药物来解决困扰人们的许多可怕的疾病。
Climate change for God’s sakes.
看在上帝的份上，气候变化。
All right, do we need innovation?
好吧，我们需要创新吗？
We’re making some progress in this country.
我们在这个国家取得了一些进展。
Should we do more?
我们应该做更多吗？
What kind of technologies out there can really cut back on carbon emissions?
什么样的技术可以真正减少碳排放？
42:41 So I hope we focus on some of the most important issues that impact humanity, but reward innovators.
因此，我希望我们关注一些影响人类的最重要问题，同时奖励创新者。
I don’t have a problem with that, but I do have a problem when three people end up owning more wealth at the bottom half of American society.
我对此没有意见，但当三个人最终在美国社会的下半部分拥有更多财富时，我确实有问题。
Maybe you can briefly speak to something you tweeted recently about Donald Trump going to McDonald’s and the minimum wage, I believe of $7.50.
也许你可以简单谈谈你最近在推特上发布的有关唐纳德·特朗普去麦当劳和最低工资（我认为是 7.50 美元）的内容。
42:54 Can you just speak to that tweet?
你能谈谈那条推文吗？
Look, nothing new.
看看，没什么新意。
43:05 Trump didn’t invent it.
它不是特朗普发明的。
It’s called a photo opportunity.
这就是所谓的拍照机会。
I’ve done one or two in my life too.
我一生中也做过一两次。
So you go to a place.
所以你去一个地方。
He puts on an apron.
他系上围裙。
Good old Donald Trump, just another McDonald’s worker.
好心的老唐纳德·特朗普，只是另一位麦当劳员工。
But anyhow, he was a…
但无论如何，他是一个……
So fine, he did his photo op.
很好，他拍了照片。
That’s fine.
没关系。
Kamala Harris was in North Carolina handing out food to people who were victims of the hurricane.
卡玛拉·哈里斯在北卡罗来纳州向飓风受害者分发食物。
Fine.
美好的。
That’s what politicians do.
这就是政客所做的。
But some reporter asked him, they said, “Mr. Trump, are you for raising the minimum wage?” And that was a fair question because you got, I don’t know how many, but many, many thousands of McDonald’s workers and millions of other American workers right now are trying to get by on 9, 10, 11 bucks an hour.
但有记者问他，他们说：“特朗普先生，你支持提高最低工资吗？”这是一个公平的问题，因为我不知道有多少，但是成千上万的麦当劳工人和数百万其他美国工人现在正试图靠每小时 9 美元、10 美元、11 美元过活。
Federal minimum wage is seven and a quarter.
联邦最低工资是七又四分之一。
You have people working at McDonald’s right now for sure who are working with 12, 13 bucks an hour.
现在肯定有人在麦当劳工作，每小时工资为 12、13 美元。
43:55 So the reporter said, what do you think about raising the federal minimum wage?
那么记者说，您对提高联邦最低工资有何看法？
And he’s, “Oh, these are great workers.
他说，“哦，这些都是伟大的工人。
I love McDonald’s and so forth.” He didn’t answer the question Well, I think that in the richest country in the history of the world, if you work 40 hours a week, you should not be living in poverty.
我喜欢麦当劳等等。”他没有回答这个问题：嗯，我认为在世界历史上最富有的国家，如果你每周工作40个小时，你不应该生活在贫困中。
And that means we should have a federal minimum wage, not absurdly seven and a quarter an hour, but in my view, $17 an hour.
这意味着我们应该有联邦最低工资，不是荒谬的每小时七点一刻，而是在我看来，每小时 17 美元。
Will that solve all the economic problems for working-class people?
这能解决工薪阶层的所有经济问题吗？
No, it won’t.
不，不会的。
It’ll help.
会有帮助的。
It’ll help.
会有帮助的。
Since running for president, you’ve often been attacked, especially from the right about being worth I believe $2 million and owning three houses.
自从竞选总统以来，你经常受到攻击，尤其是来自右翼的攻击，攻击你的身价（我相信是 200 万美元）和拥有三套房子。
44:25 So from my perspective, the answer to that is most of your wealth has been earned from writing books and selling those books.
因此，从我的角度来看，答案是你的大部分财富都是通过写书和销售这些书获得的。
And you are one of the most famous politicians in the world.
您是世界上最著名的政治家之一。
And so your wealth in the context in comparison to other people of that fame level and other politicians is actually quite modest.
因此，与其他具有同等知名度的人以及其他政客相比，您的财富实际上相当有限。
So what’s your response usually to those attacks?
那么您通常对这些攻击有何反应？
Do I own three residences?
我拥有三处住宅吗？
44:59 Yeah, I do.
是的，我愿意。
I live here in Burlington, Vermont.
我住在佛蒙特州伯灵顿。
We live in a middle-class neighborhood.
我们住在一个中产阶级社区。
Nice house.
不错的房子。
Guess what?
你猜怎么着？
I’m a United States senator and I own a home in Washington DC as do most senators.
我是一名美国参议员，和大多数参议员一样，我在华盛顿特区拥有一套房子。
You live there year after year.
你年复一年地住在那里。
Actually when I was in Congress for 16 years, I rented all the time, but I got elected.
事实上，当我在国会任职16年时，我一直租房，但我当选了。
Okay, got a six-year term.
好吧，任期六年。
You know what?
你知道吗？
Let’s buy a house.
我们买房子吧。
So we bought a house and guess what?
所以我们买了房子，你猜怎么着？
Like many thousands of people in the state of Vermont, I have a summer camp.
像佛蒙特州成千上万的人一样，我也有一个夏令营。
It’s a nice one on Lake Champlain.
这是尚普兰湖上的一个不错的地方。
That’s it.
就是这样。
Now how did I get the money?
现在我是怎么拿到钱的？
You’re right.
你说得对。
I wrote two best-selling books, including this book on capitalism.
我写了两本畅销书，其中包括这本关于资本主义的书。
It was New York Times bestseller for a while.
这本书曾一度成为《纽约时报》的畅销书。
And also another book was a youth book.
还有另一本书是一本青年书。
I make, I don’t know, $175,000 a year.
我每年赚 175,000 美元，我不知道。
And that’s more or less how I became the zillionaire that I am.
这或多或少就是我成为亿万富翁的原因。
Well, I should also mention that sometimes the word mansion is used and I think your residences are quite modest, at least-
嗯，我还应该提一下，有时会使用“豪宅”这个词，我认为你们的住宅相当朴素，至少——
Normal houses and they’re not…
普通的房子，但它们不是……
46:03 They’re middle-class houses.
它们是中产阶级的房子。
Very nice house.
非常好的房子。
So when you started in politics I read you are worth $1,100.
所以，当你开始从政时，我读到你的身价为 1,100 美元。
That much.
就这么多。
Yeah, that much.
是的，就这么多。
46:13 That’s right.
这是正确的。
Has the increase in wealth changed your ability to relate to the working class?
财富的增加是否改变了您与工人阶级相处的能力？
Well, it’s a good question.
嗯，这是一个好问题。
46:20 And obviously growing up in a working-class family has been maybe the most singularly significant aspect of my politics.
显然，在工人阶级家庭长大可能是我的政治观点中最独特的重要方面。
I grew up without money in a family that lived in a rent controlled apartment in Brooklyn New York.
我在一个没有钱的家庭中长大，住在纽约布鲁克林的租金管制公寓里。
So that has impacted me.
所以这对我产生了影响。
I’ll tell you, I don’t really give a damn about money.
我告诉你，我真的不在乎钱。
I drive a car that’s 11 years old.
我开的是一辆已有 11 年车龄的汽车。
It’s an old car and money…
这是一辆旧车和钱……
Here is my jewelry.
这是我的珠宝。
It’s a solar watch and my wedding ring.
这是一块太阳能手表和我的结婚戒指。
That’s about it.
就是这样。
I don’t have a Rolex watch, would not be interested in it.
我没有劳力士手表，对它不感兴趣。
But I’ll tell you what has impacted me, my wife who also grew up in a working-class family will tell you the same.
但我会告诉你是什么影响了我，我同样在工人阶级家庭长大的妻子也会告诉你同样的事情。
We don’t worry…
我们不担心……
You raise that issue.
你提出这个问题。
If we have to go to the doctor, if our kids have to go to the doctor, we go to the doctor.
如果我们必须去看医生，如果我们的孩子必须去看医生，我们就会去看医生。
47:08 I don’t stay up nights worrying.
我不会彻夜担心。
There was a time I have to worry about how to pay my electric bill.
有一段时间我不得不担心如何支付电费。
I don’t worry about that anymore.
我不再担心这个了。
So what has happened that stress, that economic stress of not worrying about a financial disaster, that’s gone and that is enormous.
所以发生了什么，那种压力，那种不担心金融灾难的经济压力，消失了，而且是巨大的。
I maybe as much or more than any other member of the Senate work hard not only for, but with working-class people.
我可能与参议院的任何其他成员一样甚至更多地不仅为工人阶级人民努力工作，而且还与工人阶级人民一起努力工作。
I’m chairman of the committee deals with labor issues.
我是处理劳工问题的委员会的主席。
We have been involved probably in dozens of strikes all over this country.
我们可能参与了全国各地的数十次罢工。
I’ve been on picket lines.
我一直在纠察线上。
So I do my best.
所以我尽力而为。
It’s a very easy trap to fall into.
这是一个很容易掉入的陷阱。
You can get separated from ordinary people and their struggles.
你可以与普通人和他们的斗争分开。
Not hard to do.
不难做到。
I try as hard as I can not to do that.
我尽我所能不这样做。
So sometimes people say, can money buy happiness?
所以有时候人们会问，金钱能买来幸福吗？
47:53 I think I agree with you that worry, sort of being able to fill up your car and not worry about how much it’s going to cost or be able to get a-
我想我同意你的担心，有点能够给你的车加满油，而不用担心它会花费多少钱或能够得到 -
48:00 And not worry about how much it’s going to cost or be able to get food for dinner and not worry about how much it’s going to cost.
不用担心要花多少钱，也不用担心能买到晚餐的食物，也不用担心要花多少钱。
Or even, I’ve been poor most of my life, but I’ve been very fortunate recently to have enough wealth to not worry about healthcare, to have insurance, and be able to afford an emergency room visit.
或者甚至，我一生中大部分时间都是穷人，但最近我很幸运，拥有足够的财富，不用担心医疗保健，有保险，并且能够负担得起急诊室就诊的费用。
And that worry is just such a giant lift off your shoulders.
这种忧虑让你如释重负。
Lex, I think you said it very well.
莱克斯，我认为你说得很好。
48:26 I remember even I saw this change in myself.
我记得连我自己都看到了这种变化。
When I used to go out, and I do the grocery shopping.
当我出去的时候，我会去杂货店买东西。
My wife does a lot of the cooking, I do the grocery shopping.
我妻子负责做饭，我负责采购杂货。
And I used to look at the prices of everything, I do that less now.
我过去常常查看所有东西的价格，现在很少这样做了。
I said, “What the hell?
我说：“到底是什么？
So what?
那又怎么样？
It costs 50 cents more for this can of stuff.
这罐东西要贵 50 美分。
So, what?” But that’s a luxury you have when you don’t have to worry about that.
那么，什么？但当你不必担心这一点时，这就是一种奢侈。
And I don’t have to worry about that.
我不必担心这一点。
48:52 But your point is, again, to me, I don’t like big fancy cars or big fancy homes, don’t go on…
但你的观点是，对我来说，我不喜欢豪华的大汽车或豪华的大房子，不要继续……
My wife will tell you we’ve not been on a real vacation for God knows how long, because I work pretty hard.
我的妻子会告诉你，天知道我们已经没有真正度假多久了，因为我工作非常努力。
But the major thing about having money, which is enormously important, is just what you said.
但是有钱最重要的事情，非常重要的事情，正如你所说的那样。
I don’t have to worry.
我不用担心。
If somebody in my family gets sick, I don’t have to worry about that.
如果我家里有人生病了，我不必担心。
I don’t have to worry about putting food on the table or paying the mortgage.
我不必担心餐桌上的食物或支付抵押贷款。
So, that’s what money has done.
所以，这就是金钱所做的。
Okay.
好的。
49:21 Let me ask you about the future of the Democratic Party.
我想问一下民主党的未来。
So one of the biggest impacts you’ve had is you’ve been in the fuel, the catalyst for the increase of the progressive caucus, the progressive movement within the Democratic Party.
因此，你所产生的最大影响之一就是你一直在为进步党团会议、民主党内部的进步运动的发展提供燃料和催化剂。
Do you think that is the future, the progressives, even Democratic socialist leaders will take over the party?
您认为这就是未来，进步派，甚至民主社会主义领导人将接管该党吗？
That is the most important question, regarding to my mind, American politics.
在我看来，这是关于美国政治的最重要的问题。
49:42 One of the successes that we’ve had, and I’m proud to have played a role in this, is that if you go to the House of Representatives right now, you’ll see almost a hundred members of the Progressive Caucus led very well by a woman from Washington, Pramila Jayapal.
我们取得的成功之一是，如果你现在去众议院，你会看到进步核心小组的近一百名成员，由来自华盛顿的一位女士普拉米拉·贾亚帕尔领导得很好，我很自豪能在其中发挥作用。
Does a great job.
做得很好。
That’s people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ilhan Omar and many others.
这些人包括亚历山大·奥卡西奥-科尔特斯 (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez) 和伊尔汗·奥马尔 (Ilhan Omar) 等。
Many of them are young, often women, people of color.
他们中的许多人都是年轻人，通常是女性和有色人种。
And many of them come from working-class backgrounds.
他们中的许多人都来自工人阶级背景。
So, what we have been able to do in recent years, elect a number of strong progressives who represent working families very, very effectively.
因此，我们近年来能够做的就是选出一些非常非常有效地代表工薪家庭的强有力的进步人士。
50:27 The struggle in the Democratic Party is between the corporate wing and the progressive wing.
民主党内的斗争是企业派和进步派之间的斗争。
And the corporate wing takes a whole lot of money, sees its salvation in getting a whole lot of money from wealthy individuals and large corporations.
企业部门拿走了很多钱，他们认为自己的救赎在于从富有的个人和大公司那里获得大量的钱。
And is not very vigorous in my view, in representing the needs of working-class people.
在我看来，在代表工人阶级的需求方面并不是很有活力。
If they were, we would have healthcare for all, we would have a minimum wage that was a living wage, we would not have a housing crisis.
如果是的话，我们就会为所有人提供医疗保健，我们就会有最低生活工资，我们就不会出现住房危机。
We would not have a tax system in which billionaires pay an effective tax rate that is lower than a truck driver or a nurse.
我们的税收制度不会让亿万富翁缴纳的有效税率低于卡车司机或护士。
51:11 So, I think one of the reasons that Trump has had political success is, it’s not so much his ideas.
所以，我认为特朗普取得政治成功的原因之一是，这并不是他的想法。
Most working class people don’t think we should give tax breaks to billionaires or worry about the size of Arnold Palmer’s genitalia.
大多数工人阶级认为我们不应该为亿万富翁提供税收减免，也不应该担心阿诺德·帕尔默生殖器的大小。
But they are angry, people are angry.
但他们很愤怒，人们也很愤怒。
And the Democrats have not responded effectively to that anger.
民主党并没有对这种愤怒做出有效回应。
So, the struggle that we are waging right now is the future of the Democratic Party.
所以，我们现在正在进行的斗争就是民主党的未来。
Will it be a party of the working class and represent working class issues, whether you black or white or Latino or Asian or whatever you may be?
它会成为工人阶级的政党并代表工人阶级问题吗？无论你是黑人、白人、拉丁裔、亚洲人还是无论你是什么？
Or will it be a corporately dominated party?
或者它会是一个企业主导的政党吗？
That’s the struggle we’re in right now.
这就是我们现在所面临的斗争。
Did you consider running in 2024?
您考虑过在 2024 年跑步吗？
51:49 From my perspective, I would’ve loved it if you ran.
从我的角度来看，如果你参选，我会很高兴。
I think you would’ve had a great chance of winning.
我认为你获胜的机会很大。
Not just the primary, but the presidency.
不仅是初选，还有总统职位。
I gave about five minutes thought to it.
我思考了大约五分钟。
52:00 And the reason was we have a slogan of the progressive movement, it’s not about me, it’s about us.
原因是我们有一个进步运动的口号，这不是关于我的，而是关于我们的。
And to have taken on Biden, who in my view on domestic issues, has been quite strong, would’ve really split the Democratic Party and laid the groundwork for an easy Trump victory.
在我看来，拜登在国内问题上表现得相当强势，如果他与拜登较量，将会真正分裂民主党，并为特朗普轻松获胜奠定基础。
And that I did not want to see.
这是我不想看到的。
52:25 So sometimes in life, and I know that a lot of younger people don’t agree with me, but you got to make choices which are painful.
所以有时候在生活中，我知道很多年轻人不同意我的观点，但你必须做出痛苦的选择。
So I strongly supported Biden, because I liked his domestic record.
所以我强烈支持拜登，因为我喜欢他的国内记录。
He’s done some good things against a lot of opposition.
他克服了很多反对意见，做了一些好事。
And I’m supporting Kamala right now.
我现在支持卡马拉。
But I’m doing my best to see that a dangerous guy like Donald Trump does not become president.
但我正在尽最大努力确保像唐纳德·特朗普这样的危险人物不会成为总统。
And the hope for you is that there will be future candidates that are populist, that are progressive?
您希望未来的候选人是民粹主义的、进步的？
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Let me ask you about AOC.
我想问一下关于AOC的事。
52:57 She’s become one of the most influential voices for the progressive cause in the United States.
她已成为美国进步事业最有影响力的声音之一。
You two had a great conversation on your podcast and in general, you work together.
你们两个在播客上进行了愉快的交谈，总的来说，你们一起工作。
So, what to you is most impressive about her?
那么，你对她印象最深的是什么？
I really like Alexandria a whole lot.
我真的非常喜欢亚历山大。
53:12 She is a young woman who comes from a working class background.
她是一位来自工人阶级背景的年轻女性。
She helped a mother clean houses.
她帮助一位母亲打扫房子。
She was a bartender in the Bronx, New York.
她是纽约布朗克斯区的一名调酒师。
And I’m very proud that my campaign for president inspired her to run.
我非常自豪我的总统竞选激励了她参选。
And she ran on a progressive working class program.
她参加了一个进步的工人阶级计划。
And she took on one of the more powerful guys, a guy named Joe Crowley, who was pretty high up in the Democratic Party.
她与一位更有权力的人较量，一个名叫乔·克劳利的人，他在民主党中的地位相当高。
And she knocked on doors, she had no money.
她敲门，她没有钱。
She did a very strong grassroots effort, and I appreciate that.
她在基层做出了非常大的努力，我对此表示赞赏。
So, that’s number one.
所以，这是第一。
I like what she stands for, she’s incredibly smart.
我喜欢她所代表的东西，她非常聪明。
And she has that certain charisma that maybe you’re born with it, maybe you develop it.
她具有某种魅力，也许你与生俱来，也许你会发展它。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
54:05 A couple of years ago she came up here to Vermont to spent some time.
几年前，她来到佛蒙特州度过了一段时间。
She and her partner, Riley, came up.
她和她的搭档莱利走了过来。
And we were out in the street and people saw her and they said, “Oh, Congresswoman.” and she just smiled.
我们走在街上，人们看到她，他们说：“哦，国会女议员。”她只是微笑。
And she had an approach to people, which was beautiful.
她与人相处的方式很美好。
I mean, it wasn’t phony, it was real.
我的意思是，这不是假的，而是真的。
But to be a politician, you got to know how to…
但要成为一名政治家，你必须知道如何……
You could be a great intellectual, but you can’t relate to people.
你可以成为一个伟大的知识分子，但你无法与人相处。
She relates well to people.
她与人相处融洽。
And so, I think both from a personality perspective, from an intellect perspective, from an ideological perspective, she helped create the Green New Deal concept, the need to create jobs as we transform our energy system away from fossil fuel.
因此，我认为无论是从人格角度、智力角度还是意识形态角度，她都帮助创建了绿色新政概念，即我们在能源系统摆脱化石燃料的过程中创造就业机会的需要。
Strong advocate for Medicare for all workers rights.
大力倡导医疗保险以保障所有工人的权利。
So, I’m a big fan of Alexandria.
所以，我是亚历山大的忠实粉丝。
What do you think is the most powerful enduring impact you’ve had on American politics?
您认为您对美国政治最强大、最持久的影响是什么？
54:53 Looking back, you’ve been in it for quite a bit.
回想起来，你已经投入其中相当长一段时间了。
Well, I don’t know that I can give you a singular answer.
好吧，我不知道我能给你一个单一的答案。
55:00 I was mayor of this city and proud of what we accomplished here, proud of my accomplishments as a U.S. Senator.
我是这座城市的市长，为我们在这里取得的成就感到自豪，为我作为美国参议员所取得的成就感到自豪。
When COVID was devastating this country and we had a massive economic downturn, as chairman of the budget committee, I helped write the American Rescue Plan, which put a lot of money into people’s pockets.
当新冠病毒肆虐这个国家、我们的经济严重衰退时，作为预算委员会主席，我帮助制定了《美国救援计划》，该计划为人们带来了大量资金。
We cut childhood poverty by 40% by providing a child tax credit.
我们通过提供儿童税收抵免将儿童贫困率减少了 40%。
We kept hospitals going, we kept colleges going, kept people from getting evicted, helped get public health out there, people getting the vaccines.
我们让医院继续运转，让大学继续运转，防止人们被驱逐，帮助改善公共卫生，让人们接种疫苗。
I’m proud of that.
我为此感到自豪。
55:35 But at the end of the day, I think what I have shown is that the ideas, gets back to the early part of this conversation, the ideas that I am talking about are ideas that are widely supported.
但归根结底，我认为我所展示的是这些想法，回到这次谈话的早期部分，我正在谈论的想法是得到广泛支持的想法。
So Donald Trump says, “Oh, Bernie Sanders is a far left.”, it’s like I’m some kind of extremist coming up with ideas that nobody supports.
所以唐纳德·特朗普说，“哦，伯尼·桑德斯是极左派。”，就好像我是某种极端主义者，提出了没有人支持的想法。
Everything that I talk about, raising the minimum wage, health care for all, a tax system which demands the billionaires pay their fair share, those are all popular ideas.
我所说的一切，提高最低工资、全民医疗保健、要求亿万富翁缴纳公平份额的税收制度，这些都是流行的想法。
But people didn’t know you got to run for president and have 20,000 people come out to your rallies and win 23 states.
但人们不知道你必须竞选总统，有 20,000 人参加你的集会并赢得 23 个州。
And they say, “Well, maybe those ideas are not so crazy after all.” And we’ve got to entertain them.
他们说：“好吧，也许这些想法并没有那么疯狂。”我们必须招待他们。
56:20 The establishment doesn’t like that.
该机构不喜欢这样。
They really don’t.
他们真的不知道。
They want to tell you, and this is their main, this is how they succeed.
他们想告诉你，这就是他们的主要，这就是他们成功的方式。
What they say, Lex, is, “The world is the way it is.
莱克斯，他们说的是，“世界就是这样。
It always will be this way.
永远都是这样。
We got the wealth, we got the power.
我们得到了财富，我们得到了权力。
And don’t think of anything else.
并且不要想任何其他事情。
This is the way it is.
事情就是这样。
You have no power.
你没有权力。
Give up.” They don’t say it quite that way, but that’s really what the intent is.
放弃吧。”他们虽然没有这么说，但这确实是他们的意图。
56:42 And what we showed is, guess what?
我们展示的是，你猜怎么着？
Running an outsider campaign, we took on the Democratic establishment, we came close to winning it.
我们进行了一场局外人竞选，与民主党建制派展开较量，我们差一点就赢得了胜利。
And we did win 23 states.
我们确实赢得了 23 个州。
And the ideas that we’re talking about are the ideas that working-class people, young people believe in.
我们正在谈论的想法是工人阶级、年轻人所相信的想法。
Yeah, you showed that it’s possible to win.
是的，你证明了获胜是可能的。
57:00 And that’s an idea that will resonate for decades to come.
这个想法将在未来几十年内引起共鸣。
And out of that came dozens of candidates now in the House of Representatives, people on city council, people on state legislature who did win.
其中，现在众议院的数十名候选人、市议会的议员、州立法机构的议员都获胜了。
So we mentioned about the worry of getting sick, the worry of life that many people in the working class are suffering from.
所以我们提到了很多工薪阶层正在遭受的生病之忧、生活之忧。
57:14 But there’s also the worry that we all experience of the finiteness of life.
但也有人担心我们都经历过生命的有限性。
Do you ponder your own mortality?
你思考过自己的死亡吗？
Are you afraid of it?
你害怕吗？
Well, when you’re 83, it does come across.
好吧，当你83岁的时候，它确实会出现。
All right.
好的。
Yeah, of course I do.
是的，我当然知道。
57:35 And-
还有——
Are you afraid of it?
你害怕吗？
No, I’m not afraid of death.
不，我不怕死。
57:37 What I am afraid of, I think, is infirmity.
我想，我害怕的是虚弱。
I have been, knock on wood, this is wood, I think, reasonably healthy with an exception.
我一直是，敲木头，我认为这是木头，相当健康，但有一个例外。
I had a heart attack five years ago.
五年前我心脏病发作。
And what blew me away was that my body failed me for the very first time in my life.
让我震惊的是我的身体有生以来第一次让我失望。
That was stunning to me, that suddenly, I was in a hospital bed.
这让我感到震惊，突然间，我躺在医院的病床上。
58:02 I have a great deal of compassion for people as we speak, who are in nursing homes, having a hard time walking.
在我们说话的时候，我对那些在疗养院里行走困难的人们充满同情心。
Maybe your mental agility is slipping a little bit.
也许你的思维敏捷性正在下降。
That’s tough.
这很难。
That’s what worries me.
这就是我担心的。
We are all going to die, and that’s that.
我们都会死，仅此而已。
So I’m not afraid of that, but that aspect of getting older, and that does concern me.
所以我并不害怕这一点，而是变老的这一方面，这确实让我担心。
That said, your mind is as sharp as any politician that I’ve ever heard.
也就是说，你的头脑和我听过的任何政客一样敏锐。
58:27 And also just off mic, I should say, just the warmth that you radiate.
我应该说，就在麦克风之外，就是你散发出的温暖。
And I deeply, deeply appreciate that-
我深深地、深深地感激——
Oh, thank you.
哦，谢谢。
…
……
58:42 just as a human being.
就像一个人一样。
So, you still got it.
所以，你还是明白了。
After all that, after all those speeches, after all those houses, after all of it, there’s still the humility and just the sharpness, the wit is all there.
毕竟，在所有这些演讲之后，在所有那些房子之后，在所有这些之后，仍然有谦逊和尖锐，智慧就在那里。
So Bernie, yeah, like I said, I wish you would’ve ran this year, but I also wish that there’s future candidates.
所以伯尼，是的，就像我说的，我希望你今年能参选，但我也希望有未来的候选人。
Yeah.
是的。
59:05 And there will be, Lex.
会有的，莱克斯。
I absolutely do.
我绝对愿意。
And I think you asked about my legacy, the idea that they’re all wonderful, really, really wonderful people who are now, got involved in the political process that are fighting for justice.
我想你问的是我的遗产，即他们都是很棒的、非常非常非常棒的人，他们现在参与了为正义而战的政治进程。
That’s a great legacy.
这是一项伟大的遗产。
What gives you hope about the future of this country, about the future of the world?
是什么让您对这个国家的未来、对世界的未来充满希望？
Sometimes one can become very cynical.
有时一个人会变得非常愤世嫉俗。
59:24 You look at the terrible wars that are going on right now, you look at the divisiveness in this country, the ugliness, the poverty, you look at climate change.
你看看现在正在发生的可怕战争，你看看这个国家的分裂、丑陋、贫困，你看看气候变化。
You can get depressed from all that.
你可能会因为这一切而感到沮丧。
But I am lucky in this sense, in that I’ve had the opportunity…
但从这个意义上说，我很幸运，因为我有机会……
People often, “What inspires you?
人们常常会问：“什么激励着你？
How do you keep going?” And I remember, actually it was in California where it really crystallized me.
你怎么继续走下去？”我记得，实际上是在加利福尼亚，它真正让我结晶。
I was at a rally in the agricultural area of California.
我参加了加州农业区的一次集会。
And we did a rally, it was sunset, thousands of people were out.
我们举行了一次集会，当时是日落时分，成千上万的人出去了。
And you looked around the crowd and there were young people, black and white and Latino and Asian American, huge cross section.
你环顾人群，里面有年轻人，有黑人、白人、拉丁裔和亚裔美国人，他们的横截面很大。
There were older people, and they all wanted to make America a very much better country.
其中有老年人，他们都希望让美国成为一个更加美好的国家。
And it really moved me.
这真的让我感动。
1:00:17 I mean, I see that time and time, and I’ve just been on the campaign trail.
我的意思是，我看到了那一次又一次，而且我刚刚参加了竞选活动。
And you see great people, really beautiful people who, not interested in becoming billionaires.
你会看到一些伟大的人，非常美丽的人，他们对成为亿万富翁不感兴趣。
They want to improve life for other people in this country.
他们希望改善这个国家其他人的生活。
So, I am grateful that I…
所以，我很感激我……
It sounds like a platitude.
这听起来像是陈词滥调。
It’s what every politician says, oh, blah, blah, blah, blah.
这是每个政客都会说的，哦，等等，等等，等等。
But when you go out around the country, you go to Native American reservations and you go to factories and everything, and you see so many wonderful people.
但当你到全国各地去，去美洲原住民保留地，去工厂等等，你会看到很多很棒的人。
I have been able to see things that many others have not.
我能够看到许多其他人看不到的东西。
I’ve been to every state in the country, and that inspires me.
我去过这个国家的每个州，这激励着我。
I share their optimism, I share your optimism.
我和他们一样乐观，我和你一样乐观。
1:00:55 Bernie, I’ve been a fan for a long time.
伯尼，我已经是他的粉丝很长时间了。
It’s a great honor to speak to you today.
今天很荣幸与您交谈。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
Well, thank you very much for what you’re doing.
嗯，非常感谢你所做的事情。
1:01:02 Let me just say a word about what you’re doing.
让我简单说一下你正在做的事情。
Okay.
好的。
1:01:06 Let’s go.
我们走吧。
Return the compliments here.
在此回复您的赞美。
Okay.
好的。
I think there is a growing dissatisfaction with corporate media.
我认为人们对企业媒体越来越不满。
1:01:09 And not because it’s fake news or the reporters lie all the time, that’s nonsense.
并不是因为这是假新闻或记者一直在撒谎，那是无稽之谈。
They don’t.
他们不知道。
But I think people want to hear folks really talk about in a calm manner, about some of the very important issues which are not discussed in corporate media.
但我认为人们希望听到人们以平静的方式真正谈论一些企业媒体没有讨论的非常重要的问题。
And I think that’s what you and some others are doing.
我认为这就是你和其他一些人正在做的事情。
So, I thank you very much.
所以，我非常感谢你。
It’s a very important service to the country.
这是对国家非常重要的服务。
And thank you from a mayor perspective, for creating a wonderful town.
从市长的角度感谢您创造了一个美好的小镇。
1:01:35 And I look forward to looking at the fall leaves walking around tonight.
我期待今晚能看到秋天的落叶四处走动。
Well, I did quite great the leaves.
嗯，我把叶子做得很好。
1:01:44 I did create some other things.
我确实创造了一些其他东西。
Okay.
好的。
1:01:47 Thank you so much, Bernie.
非常感谢你，伯尼。
Thank you, Lex.
谢谢你，莱克斯。
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Bernie Sanders.
感谢您收听与伯尼·桑德斯的对话。
1:01:50 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
为了支持这个播客，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。
1:01:57 And now, let me leave you with some words from Aristotle.
现在，让我给你们讲几句亚里士多德的话。
” The real difference between democracy and oligarchy is poverty and wealth.
” 民主与寡头政治的真正区别在于贫穷与财富。
Wherever men rule by reason of their wealth, whether they be few or many, that is an oligarchy.
凡是人们凭借财富进行统治的地方，无论数量是少还是多，那就是寡头政治。
And where the poor rule, that is democracy.” Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
穷人统治的地方，就是民主。”感谢您的聆听，并希望下次再见。
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