埃德·巴恩哈特：玛雅、阿兹特克、印加与南美的失落文明
Ed Barnhart: Maya, Aztec, Inca, and Lost Civilizations of South America
考古学家谈玛雅、阿兹特克与印加文明的兴衰、祭祀与城市，以及南美考古的新发现。
秘鲁的沙漠里埋着几千座金字塔。其中最早的一座，比埃及的第一座金字塔还要早几千年。而绝大多数考古学家，至今没去看过一眼。
考古学家埃德·巴恩哈特（Ed Barnhart）一辈子研究南美、中美洲和北美的古代文明。他反复讲的一件事是：我们对人类历史的认知，可能只是冰山一角。
这期播客里，莱克斯·弗里德曼（Lex Fridman）问了他一个直接的问题：地球上是否存在我们一无所知的失落文明？
巴恩哈特的回答很干脆：有。而且就在他这一代人的时间里，已经找到了好几个。
哥贝克力石阵（Göbekli Tepe）是其中之一，附近还有卡拉汉石阵（Karahan Tepe），土耳其那片被称为“塔什泰佩勒”（Taş Tepeler）的区域。这些东西在几十年前完全不在人类的认知里。考古学家只是划着船经过，随口问一个牧羊人：这附近有什么古老的东西吗？牧羊人说，哦，我带你去看。然后一个失落文明就冒出来了。
牧羊人一直都知道那里有什么。只是从来没有人问过他们。
亚特兰蒂斯不存在，但它的影子存在
柏拉图在对话录里写过一个沉入海底的岛屿文明。两千多年来，无数人相信它真的存在。
巴恩哈特的判断是：他不认为亚特兰蒂斯存在。他觉得那是柏拉图用来讲课的一个寓言，把一个道理包装进一个好故事里。但如果非要找一个现实中的影子，他会押注在阿克罗蒂里（Akrotiri）。
那是圣托里尼岛上的一座古城。三千五百年前，火山爆发，把整座城市炸得粉碎。七十英里外的克里特岛上，悬崖里嵌着圣托里尼的碎石。但火山灰埋住的那一半城市保留了下来，人们可以在废墟里走一圈，看到街道、排水系统、墙上插火把的壁龛。三千五百年前就有这些，工程水平高得离谱。
柏拉图说亚特兰蒂斯在一个岛上，沉了。阿克罗蒂里恰好就发生了这件事。
巴恩哈特说，作为一个考古学家，他经常想这件事。他生活在美国，这个国家有两百多年历史，人们觉得已经很久了。可他研究的中美洲和南美城市，动辄延续八百年、一千年，然后变成废墟。以历史尺度衡量，现代文明才刚刚起步。
而那些没留下痕迹的文明呢？水能削出大峡谷，也能抹掉一切。海浪、洋流、海平面上升，把无数证据埋进海底。可能有很多文明就在海面之下，被彻底销毁，或者被深深地埋了起来。
文明是怎么开始的
从游牧到定居，中间到底发生了什么？
人类在非洲演化了三十万年，绝大部分时间都在移动。夏天去山上采浆果，冬天去低地打猎，年复一年地画着或大或小的游牧圈。这种生活持续了十几万年。
转折点大约在一万两千年前。上一个冰期结束，气候剧变。美洲的巨型动物消失了，猛犸象没了，野牛也没了。原本靠打猎获得的食物来源断了，人们不得不转向采集。
采集变成了种植，花园变成了农田，农田变成了集约化农业。有了稳定的食物，人就可以在一个地方聚集起来，不再需要到处漂泊。人类第一次学会待在一个地方，这就是文明的初始开关。
巴恩哈特承认自己有一颗探险家的心，所以他的判断可能带偏见。但他认为驱动人类改变的，更多是胡萝卜而不是大棒。人有天生的好奇心，想知道地平线后面有什么，想拿自己的成就让别人刮目相看。人类真正的优势是会合作，是社交能力。事情变糟的时候，大棒才会出现。大部分时候，胡萝卜就够了。
美洲最早的人，比我们想的早得多
第一批人怎么来到美洲的？
传统理论是：冰期时白令陆桥露出海面，游牧猎人追着猎物一路走过去。这个说法仍然有效，但时间被彻底改写了。
DNA技术是考古学的游戏规则改变者。过去考古学家认为，人类进入美洲大约是12500年前。现在DNA证据显示，至少3万年前就有人过来了。更激进的说法是，可能早到6万年前。
巴恩哈特年轻时，说美洲人类历史超过12500年会被当成疯子。现在这已经是主流共识。陆桥反复开合，一批批人过来，每一批都带着自己的基因标记。
一个有意思的发现是：美洲最古老的人群在南美，在亚马逊。他们是最早到达、最早被隔离、DNA没有充分混合的那一批。他们大多是O型血，属于最早进入美洲的D单倍群。
这些人怎么到南美的？巴恩哈特认为他们很可能是沿着海岸线坐船下来的。第一批人一路到了南美，被隔离在那里。后面的几波人则在中北美定居，后来才和第一批人的后代混在一起。
欧洲也有类似的现象。今天人们觉得凯尔特人来自爱尔兰，实际上凯尔特文化的起源在东欧。罗马帝国横扫欧洲时，只有爱尔兰那个边缘岛屿没被征服。结果边缘反而看起来像是中心。
卡拉尔：被考古学家嫌弃的文明摇篮
南美作为文明摇篮的地位，长期被忽视。
美国太大，离那些地方太远，人们根本不会去想。但越来越多的证据显示，秘鲁海岸的文明比埃及和美索不达米亚更早。公元前3000多年，那里已经有巨大的石砌金字塔和神庙。
卡拉尔（Caral）是最著名的一处，在利马北边。巴恩哈特每次去那里，都感觉像登上了月球。方圆几英里没有人烟。这么一个重大的发现，至今没多少人去看，因为太难到达。
更荒诞的是，卡拉尔一百年前就被发现了。当时的考古学家看了一眼，没金子，没陶器，卖不了钱，掉头就走。直到上世纪七八十年代，才有人反应过来：没有陶器，是不是意味着它比陶器的发明还早？那得回去重新看看。
卡拉尔大约始于公元前3200年，作为文明中心延续到公元前1800年。而更早的瓦卡普列塔（Huaca Prieta），可以追溯到公元前6000年。那比埃及金字塔早了几千年。
为什么人类到处都在建金字塔？巴恩哈特的回答很实在：没有钢筋混凝土的年代，想建一座又高又大的建筑，只能做宽底座、窄顶部，最后自然就成了金字塔。小孩在地板上搭积木，想搭得高又不倒，最后也会搭出这个形状。
但建金字塔的动机不只是结构问题。人怕死，怕自己什么都不是，怕没人记得自己。第一批大型纪念碑，很可能是一群人在一起说：我们要做一件永远被人记住的事。
不过，瓦卡普列塔的第一座金字塔，可能没那么浪漫。巴恩哈特猜，那其实是为了盖住一堆发臭的垃圾。海岸边堆着鱼骨头，臭气熏天。有人说，用土埋上就不臭了。埋完发现是个大土墩，人可以站上去讲话。下雨后土墩变软，再糊一层黏土。秘鲁最早的金字塔，很可能就是从垃圾管理开始的。
尖牙神祇：贯穿三千年的一个神
巴恩哈特最受争议的观点是：安第斯地区的宗教，比主流认为的更接近一神教。
主流考古学把安第斯艺术里的各种形象解读成一个个独立的神：鲨鱼神、月神、太阳神、螃蟹神、狐狸神。但巴恩哈特接受的是艺术史训练，用的是追踪视觉特征演变的方法。他发现，所有这些形象背后其实是同一张脸。
圆形眼睛，獠牙嘴，手脚有爪子，人形，头发是蛇，腰带上也是蛇。后来还开始拎着砍下来的人头。他被称为“尖牙神祇”（the fanged deity）。
从查文（Chavín）文化开始，经过莫切（Moche）、纳斯卡（Nazca）、瓦里（Wari）、蒂亚瓦纳科（Tiahuanaco），一直到印加，这个形象反复出现，跨越几千年、几千英里。印加人叫他维拉科查（Viracocha），是创造之神。到印加时期，他们几乎用伊斯兰教的方式处理他：维拉科查的脸是不可理解的，所以在宇宙图里只画成一个模糊的团块，但他永远在最顶端。
螃蟹神其实是尖牙神的脸长在螃蟹身上。狐狸神是他的脸长在狐狸身上。就像宙斯可以变成任何动物去追女人，但他始终是宙斯。
巴恩哈特说，主流之所以误读，是因为早期考古学家带着“古代文化都有万神殿”的先入之见去看艺术，于是到处找神。但如果拿基督教做镜子，一神教体系里也有大量超自然存在：天使、魔鬼、耶稣基督、圣灵。他们都有超自然力量，但他们不是上帝。安第斯艺术里的那些形象，很可能也是这个逻辑。
这个神还有软的一面。巴恩哈特追踪过一个反复出现的小狗，就在尖牙神脚边蹦来蹦去。有时在治疗仪式里，有时在性仪式里，小狗在门口挠门，好像在说：嘿，你把我忘了。后来他甚至找到一件陶器，小狗代替尖牙神在和女人发生性关系。巴恩哈特说，他正在写一本关于尖牙神的书，会专门留一章给这只小狗。
迷幻剂与宗教的起源
死藤水（Ayahuasca）在亚马逊用了多久？巴恩哈特说，比任何人能记得的都久，至少几千年。
查文德万塔尔（Chavín de Huántar）神庙背朝亚马逊的那面墙上，刻着一排脸。有些是人，有些是完全的美洲豹，有些在变形中间状态。其中一组正在变形中的脸，鼻孔里流着鼻涕。
圣佩德罗仙人掌不会让你流鼻涕。死藤水会。传统用法是用吹管把死藤水射进鼻子，或者从另一头射进去，通常是从鼻子。药液冲进鼻腔，第一反应就是一股鼻涕喷出来。三千年前的神庙墙上，刻着人们控制不住流鼻涕的样子。
巴恩哈特认为，致幻剂打开思维的方式，古今是一样的。他不确定“迷幻猿假说”在全球范围内是否成立，但在美洲，致幻植物确实是宗教体验的一部分。世界上绝大多数真正的致幻植物都产在美洲。美洲之外能让人产生幻觉的植物极少。所以致幻体验在美洲的宗教形成中扮演的角色，是其他地方无法比拟的。
玛雅人走的是另一条路。他们用饥饿、睡眠剥夺，再加上放血。割伤自己，失血触发幻觉和幻象。不需要药物。巴恩哈特说，他个人更愿意走药物路线。
本质上，这些都是让人进入接近死亡的状态。美洲原住民相信睡眠就是进入另一个世界，就是死亡。服用大剂量的毒药，就是帮你在另一个世界待上一段时间。
亚马逊里真的有失落文明
“失落的Z城”和“黄金国”听起来像两个传说，其实相隔很远。黄金国的传说集中在哥伦比亚一带，Z城在巴西的欣古（Xingu）地区。整个美国都能塞进亚马逊盆地，这两个地方在亚马逊的两端。
但两边都有文明存在的证据。
亚马逊地势低，经常被水淹。所以那里的人堆起巨大的土丘，在土丘之间修宽阔的堤道，这样雨季被淹的时候还能在城市里走动。欣古地区已经发现了大片能容纳数万人的遗址。
这些建筑不用石头，在森林下埋了太久，已经被破坏得很严重。但它们确实存在。巴西和玻利维亚合作修了一条横贯公路，打开了更多土地，也发现了更多几何土方工程。证据越来越多。
另一个关键证据是“黑土”（terra preta）。大片大片的深黑色土壤，不可能由自然森林过程形成。人类学家称之为“人为景观”。意思是：遥远的过去，那片土地上没有森林，只有大规模农田和密集的人类活动，土壤被彻底改造成黑色，养分比周围高得多。
巴恩哈特去亚马逊考察时，问当地人黑土的事。他们说：对，这就是我们住在这里的原因。我们有时会搬迁村子，但搬迁时专门找黑土，因为只有黑土上我们的园子才长东西。别的地方种不出来。
格雷厄姆·汉考克（Graham Hancock）认为亚马逊可能是人造的花园，由远古先进文明种植。巴恩哈特说，就事实层面，他同意汉考克：那里确实存在过广阔的文明。分歧在结论。
汉考克的核心观点是：曾经有一个极其先进的单一文明，被气候灾变摧毁，幸存者逃到世界各地，播下了所有文明的种子。巴恩哈特不同意这一点。他认为这些是各自独立生长起来的文明，有共同点是因为有共同的远祖，跟某个更先进的文明播种无关。
他的反驳很直接：考古学家最擅长的事就是找东西。连鱼鳞都能找到。如果一个文明先进到那个程度、规模大到那个程度，我们连一片陶片都找不到，这实在说不通。
汉考克关注的是我们不知道的、可能存在的东西。巴恩哈特承认这很重要。他说，每一个改变范式的想法，一开始都是异端和疯狂。那个疯子，下一秒可能就是天才。所以必须对听起来离谱的东西保持开放。如果忙着烧掉自己不喜欢的书，就是在关闭进步的可能性。
但他也强调，科学家的职责是证伪自己的理论，不是证明。考古学经常越界，变成先有结论再找证据。
玛雅历法：从身体里长出来的时间
玛雅人是一群数学呆子。他们不满足于只用一套周期描述时间，而是让多个周期像齿轮一样互相咬合。
最古老、也最重要的一套是卓尔金历（Tzolk'in）。260天，没有星期，没有月份，只是13个数字和20个日名的组合，循环往复。今天仍有数百万玛雅人按这套历法生活。
每个人都知道自己的生日在卓尔金历里是哪一天，知道那意味着什么性格、适合做什么工作。每一天都有自己的灵，玛雅人统称它们为“爷爷奶奶”。现在有大约八千名“守日人”（daykeepers），他们几乎是社区心理咨询师。有人来说生活乱了，守日人会问爷爷奶奶，然后告诉他：你是Kibʼ，你本该做助产士，你却去做会计，你活错了。
巴恩哈特自己的玛雅日名是13 Kibʼ。那个日名的解释是：他是个不负责任的丈夫和父亲，但人们喜欢他，所以家庭还是兴旺的。他说，准得可怕。
为什么是260天？大多数玛雅人今天也认同的解释是：九个月，人类妊娠期。如果今天受孕，孩子大概率在同一天名附近出生。他们想造一套时间计数，没有抬头看天，而是低头看自己的身体。这是人类自己的周期，没有别的文明这样造过历法。
第二套是哈布历（Haab），太阳历，365天。没有闰年，所以每年差四分之一天，时间久了偏差越来越大，被称为“模糊年”。直到今天还在造成麻烦。危地马拉高地的玛雅群体在1950年代把新年起点往回挪了60天，因为农业周期已经偏得太厉害。他们给巴恩哈特写邮件，说他算错了。巴恩哈特说，他算的是纯数学，从一千年前推过来的。
第三套是长计历（Long Count），线性天数计数。基础是20进制。诡异的是，长计历里的“年”只有360天，不是365天。它不跟随任何天文周期，也不是人类生理周期。为什么要在“年”这个层级上调整成360天，至今没有解释。
长计历里有20年周期叫卡盾（k'atun），400年周期叫伯克盾（bak'tun）。伯克盾相当于他们的“千禧年”。在人类这一次创造之前，已经过去了13个伯克盾。
玛雅人相信世界有多次创造。第四次创造开始于公元前3114年8月11日。从这个日期往前数13个伯克盾，正好到2012年12月21日。
这就是2012世界末日传说的来源。
巴恩哈特说，那几年是他的丰收年，全国到处请他去演讲，世界末日对他实在太好了。
但他的论证是：翻遍所有玛雅数学和历法文本，没有任何地方说世界会在2012年结束。反而有几个日期明确提到2012年之后的时间。帕伦克有一处，德累斯顿抄本有一处，还有一处他忘了名字。这构成了矛盾。
他的解释不太扎实，但他认为：英雄双子的魔法在第三次创造结束时按下了重置键，时间重新开始。但这不代表伯克盾的自然周期就该是13。当玛雅人要表达极其漫长的时间时，会用比伯克盾更高的单位：皮克盾（piktun）、卡拉巴盾（kalabtun）、阿拉瓦盾（alawatun），一个比一个大。说到那种尺度，他们会往所有高阶单位里塞13。巴恩哈特认为这是在表达时间的永不终结。
阿兹特克人也有多次创造的概念，但他们明确告诉西班牙人：几次创造的时间长度不一样。有的几百年，有的七百年。所以用数学逻辑推断“第三次是13，这次也该是13”，和阿兹特克人自己的说法直接冲突。
玛雅崩溃，也许根本不是崩溃
玛雅古典期结束时，大量城市在相对短的时间内被遗弃。这是考古学上的大谜题。
巴恩哈特认为这是考古学的观察失败。大部分城市的居民没有走远，最多移动20到40公里，在附近开农场，住在容易腐烂的房子里。考古学的信号只看到“城市中心没人住了”，但没有大规模死亡证据，没有疾病证据。少数城市确实发生过战争和焚烧，但大多数没有。人们只是搬走了。
大约在公元800到900年之间，精英阶层从危地马拉北部雨林向两个方向迁移：一部分去危地马拉高地，一部分去尤卡坦。奇琴伊察（Chichén Itzá）成为下一个大首都。而“Itza”这个词本身描述的就是住在危地马拉北部佩滕伊察湖（Lake Peten Itza）周围的人。玛雅人都很清楚：伊察人是带着新思想来的移民，他们建立了奇琴伊察。
崩溃的原因不单一。人口过剩是其中一个。科潘（Copán）的考古证据很直接：最后几代精英的牙齿上有牙釉质发育不全的痕迹，这是季节性饥饿的标志。连富人都吃不饱，问题肯定存在。
但巴恩哈特个人倾向于一个历法解释。第九伯克盾恰好在那时结束。大约公元426年开始，829年结束，正好400年。在此之前没有国王，在此之后也没有国王。他去问今天的玛雅人：大周期结束时会发生什么？玛雅人说，周期是更新和转化的时刻，在周期结束时改变生活是我们的义务。改变要来了，我们可以选择参与，也可以被碾过去。
阿兹特克人每52年举行一次新火仪式，烧掉完好的神庙，有时也烧掉自己的房子，整个社会一起更新世界。巴恩哈特认为，玛雅人在第九伯克盾结束时，决定更新世界。
阿兹特克：美丽和鲜血手牵手
阿兹特克人来得晚。大约1300年才进入墨西哥谷。他们起初是雇佣兵，替湖边那些“太文明、不愿自己动手”的城邦干脏活。
有一个国王很喜欢他们，决定把自己的女儿嫁给阿兹特克首领。阿兹特克人把她献祭了。国王大怒，带兵把他们赶进荒漠。后来一位祭司说，他的幻象指示：看到鹰站在仙人掌上、嘴里叼着蛇的地方，就是建都之地。他们看到了，但那地方在湖中一个岛上。于是他们开始往湖里堆淤泥，硬是造出一座岛城。特诺奇蒂特兰（Tenochtitlan）就此建立。大约一百年后，他们控制了整个墨西哥谷。
他们组建了三方联盟，另外两个大城邦名义上是盟友，实际上是闭嘴让阿兹特克人说了算。然后阿兹特克像野火一样扩张，一路打到玛雅地区。每到一个地方，就重新命名城镇，要求进贡。
巴恩哈特说，阿兹特克人像匈奴王阿提拉。他们不介意剥你的皮。别人都太舒服、太文明了，阿兹特克人就是雇佣兵。他们告诉所有人：我们可以把你的心掏出来，也可以让你为我们工作。为我们工作，你就没事。
先到的是商人阶层，同时也是军人。他们带着阿兹特克商品说想贸易，同时评估你的军事实力、有什么值得抢的东西。商人走后，军队就来了。
阿兹特克人崇拜战争之神。主神庙特姆普洛马约尔（Templo Mayor）顶上两座庙，一座是雨神特拉洛克（Tlaloc），另一座是战争神维齐洛波奇特利（Huitzilopochtli），名字的意思是“左手的蜂鸟”。旁边是鹰武士团和美洲豹武士团两座庙，象征性竞争，但属于同一支力量。
他们的献祭是外科手术式的。把人在神庙顶上弯过一块特定的石头，用厚重的黑曜石刀在胸骨旁边切开，把胸骨往下压，同时把肋骨往上拉，然后伸手把心脏掏出来。人还是活的。
有一场大旱几乎毁掉整个谷地。阿兹特克人得出结论：因为我们杀人不够多。于是加大力度，主要拿特拉斯卡拉人（Tlaxcallans）开刀。然后下雨了。这被当成确凿证据：继续杀。
他们也吃人。巴恩哈特引用萨阿贡（Sahagún）的记载：分配有讲究，精英分到臀部，臀肉是最好的部分，然后沿着等级往下分，有人只分到手指和脚趾。
最悲剧的一幕是“悲伤之夜”（Noche Triste）。科尔特斯去海岸处理新来的西班牙军队，把佩德罗·德·阿尔瓦拉多（Pedro de Alvarado）留在城里。阿兹特克人举办盛大宴会，席间有人告诉阿尔瓦拉多：你喜欢这顿饭吗？那是人肉。阿尔瓦拉多暴怒，命令卫兵关上门，杀死了宴会上所有人，女人、孩子、没有武器的人。这直接引爆了阿兹特克人的愤怒，他们杀死了被扣为人质的蒙特祖玛，然后试图杀死所有西班牙人。全因为一个关于吃人的玩笑。
巴恩哈特说，如果西班牙人没来，阿兹特克帝国会继续扩张，但不会长久。他们靠仇恨统治，所有人都恨他们。靠武力统治，撑不了多久，革命迟早发生。
印加：一个本可以长久存在的帝国
巴恩哈特对印加的评价完全不同。他认为印加帝国本可以永远存在下去。
因为印加是社区导向的。一旦被纳入帝国，没有人会饿死。他们修建筑，所有人都安全。这样的社会有能力延续很久。
印加起源于血腥的征服，但一旦开始扩张，做法不同。别人只是抢劫邻居的资源，印加把被征服者变成帝国的一部分，创造了一套米塔（Mit'a）轮工制度，修了道路系统，让劳动力来回调动。
一个五千人的城镇，印加会带着十万到二十万人的军队出现，问：你们想加入帝国，还是想我们护送你们到帝国边缘？如果镇长同意，他可以在库斯科有一所房子。下个月，工程队就来修梯田和仓库。每个月用农业盈余办大宴会，所有人都吃得好。生活水平立刻提高，安全也有了。
库斯科（Cusco）在克丘亚语里是“肚脐”的意思。帝国叫塔万廷苏尤（Tawantinsuyu），“四方之地”，中心就是库斯科。
印加人在被征服地区修建标志性的行政建筑，就像罗马人修罗马式建筑一样。他们派基普卡马约克（Khipukamayuq）作为会计，记录每个人做什么：你擅长种地，就去种地；你擅长纺织，就去纺织；所有男人轮流服兵役。每个社区有五六个独立会计，不允许互相串通，各自把基普（quipu）送回库斯科。账目对不上，就被叫到库斯科对质。
基普是绳结记录系统。一根主绳，下面垂着许多小绳，小绳上打着结。有些是数学基普，可以直接算。有些编码语言。库斯科曾有整座图书馆，西班牙征服者被带进去，管理员说：把那条拿下来读给我听。管理员就取下一条，读出两百年前的历史。1570年代，一位教会负责人把所有能读基普的基普卡马约克集中起来，让他们读出所有基普，转录成西班牙文书籍，然后烧掉基普，杀掉那些人。今天还有大约一千条基普存世。巴恩哈特认为，这一代人有可能破译它。
印加人统治中唯一让所有人不满的，是羊驼。所有东西都是公社共有的，唯独羊驼归国王。国王想要哪只就要哪只，很多当天就被送到库斯科。人们对羊驼的感情像家人一样。这相当于有人说：你们家的狗现在都是我的了。情感上很难接受。
他们还带走木乃伊。印加人不接受死亡，木乃伊还在那里，还穿着衣服，还在聚会上，给他面前放杯啤酒。把各城镇最重要的木乃伊带到库斯科，给它们盖漂亮的房子。意思是：你们崇拜的祖先没有被偷走，而是被提升到了新的荣誉位置，欢迎随时来看他们。各角落的人都会来库斯科参加节日。
玛雅人完全不同。他们不制作木乃伊。反而故意往墓里灌水，让皮肤更快从骨头上浮起来，然后回去取骨头，涂上朱砂。科潘的一处墓葬显示，他们进去过四次，最后几次只取头骨，重新涂色，再按解剖位置放回去。
今天的玛雅人对挖墓毫不忌讳。巴恩哈特讲过一个故事：在科潘，一家人说他们的狗去年死了，埋在院子里，可以挖出来做参考标本。孩子们跑来帮忙，这是他们的宠物，死了不到一年。挖到骨头时，一个孩子抓起来说：小骨头，耶。巴恩哈特说，这态度很怪，但也很美。亡灵节就是这样。万圣节是怪物吓人的路数，亡灵节走的是另一条路，它纪念祖先。他受《寻梦环游记》启发，在家里设了祭坛，放上曾祖父母的东西，在那一天讲他们是谁、怎么生活。
印加石工之谜
印加人怎么把巨石切得那么准，缝隙里连一枚硬币都塞不进去？
搬运问题巴恩哈特认为有合理解释。美国有个退休承包商沃利·沃灵顿（Wally Wallington），在明尼苏达自家后院单枪匹马建了一座巨石阵，演示了怎么移动大石头。
但完美拼接是另一回事。教科书上的标准答案是：他们用锤石不断敲打、放置、重新放置，直到完美。巴恩哈特说这肯定是胡说。每个人都有锤石，不可能靠这种细致程度做到。
他的个人理论是酸。他认为印加人把石头熔接在了一起。仔细看这些石头，安山岩里的晶体在接缝处几乎缝合在一起，周围的安山岩熔化了，晶体没有。有些墙上还有奇怪的擦痕，像有人在石头还软的时候用抹布擦过。
他父亲是化学家，曾告诉他自然界没有这样的酸。但他的理论灵感来自《绝命毒师》：氢氟酸能溶解一切，包括安山岩。氢氟酸不腐蚀塑料，可以以惰性成分运输，再混合。印加人用萤石做大量珠宝，安第斯山萤石很多。他们开采金银，副产品是硫酸。硫酸加萤石就是氢氟酸。
如果能谨慎操作，不在乎仆从失去一两条胳膊，就可以用氢氟酸把石头熔接起来。
他向库斯科市政府申请取岩芯样本，被拒绝了：走开，外国佬，别碰我们的墙。他打算下次去找奥扬泰坦博（Ollantaytambo）更偏克丘亚的当局谈谈。合作化学家说，如果接缝里有氢氟酸，岩芯样本可以分离出元素，检测到残留。巴恩哈特说，他会尝试证伪自己的理论。
他也提醒，不要低估一大群人长期协作能做的事。而一大群人之所以能协作，是因为背后有一小群有说服力的管理者。
永远不要低估一小群专注的人的力量。事实上，只有这一小群人才真正改变过世界。（巴恩哈特引用玛格丽特·米德）
北美被遗忘的文明
北美洲也有一段被集体遗忘的文明史。
最早的复杂社会出现在两个区域：密西西比河以东的土丘建造者，以及西南部四角地区后来发展成普韦布洛人（Pueblo）的群体，今天的祖尼人（Zuni）和霍皮人（Hopi）是他们的后代。
北美第一个大型社区在最不可能的地方：北路易斯安那。那里有一座金字塔，叫贫困点（Poverty Point），三千五百年历史，和埃及金字塔同龄，从路易斯安那的沼泽里冒出来。
巴恩哈特反对“土丘建造者”这个称呼。他们建的是金字塔，只是现在看起来像土丘，而且不是石头建的。这背后是西方偏见：石头建的是高级的，土建的是原始的。实际上，这些土丘有黏土外壳，有台地，顶上有建筑群，国王住在上面。
最大的密西西比城市叫卡霍基亚（Cahokia），在圣路易斯城外。人口两万，到处是金字塔，周围有巨大的木栅栏墙。它是一座繁荣的大都市。然后它从密西西比河扩散到大西洋沿岸，成百上千座五千到一万人的城市。
它们有统一的宗教和文化，但始终没有形成帝国，维持的是互相征战的城邦格局。有大国王拥有的领土，周围是附属领主和国王。一个王国可以和邻居结盟，也可以开战。
这些都有西班牙人的明确记录。埃尔南多·德索托（Hernando de Soto）在佛罗里达登陆，三年间穿过卡罗来纳、阿拉巴马、路易斯安那，是第一个看到密西西比河上游的欧洲人。三年里他穿过一座又一座城市，同时也摧毁它们，吃光他们的玉米，带去疾病。他见过数百万生活在高度发达、统一文明中的人。
德索托本人是杀人犯、精神病、骗子。他让当地人相信他是神。他曾跟随皮萨罗征服印加，回西班牙后有钱、有妻子、有城堡，然后无聊了，决定在北美洲进行三年恐怖统治。他把人绑在火刑柱上烧，让狗把人撕碎。他靠恐惧统治，毫无尊重，承诺从不遵守。
哥伦布大交换的悲剧
哥伦布大交换（Columbian Exchange）改变了世界。旧世界得到了各种蔬菜，饮食水平大幅提高。新世界得到了猪、牛、羊等牲畜，但也得到了13种传染病。
欧洲经历过一波又一波疫情，对很多病有群体免疫，但病原体并没有消失，只是无法像野火一样蔓延。到了美洲，这些病同时爆发。头二三十年里，有人同时感染多种致命疾病死去。
当时欧洲医学还停留在四体液理论，认为人由黄胆汁、黑胆汁、血液和黏液组成，治疗方法是放血。他们根本不知道传染病是什么。头五十年里，估计90%的人口死亡。现在估计当时美洲有约1.5亿人，90%死亡，随之消失的是他们所有的知识。
那个时刻可以这样想：情况变糟时谁会死？年轻人和老人。知识持有者突然全部死亡，孩子死亡。下一代人只学了一半，彻底绝望，认为这是精神攻击，他们的神恨他们，唯一的出路是接受新的基督教。但他们不想把孩子带到这个所有人都在死去的世界。即使生了，也无法传授老人本来要教的东西，因为老人已经不在了，知识传递中断了。在一个可怕的历史瞬间，一整代人的知识消失了。
巴恩哈特认为，西班牙和葡萄牙在“黑色传说”中被不公平地妖魔化了。这跟事实不符。西班牙人和葡萄牙人并没有冲进美洲杀光所有人，真正杀光所有人的是疾病。
他讲过一个故事：一位西班牙神父在巴西亚马逊北部建立乌托邦社区，把生病的人接进来。他写道：我在给所有人洗礼。我一天给一万人洗礼，但上帝还在杀死他们。为什么？他们做了一切我要求的事，他们服从上帝的意志。但这位神父没有意识到，他用来洗礼的同一碗圣水，正在把疾病抹到每个人脸上。他以为在拯救他们，实际在加速死亡。这是纯粹的悲剧。
外星人、未来与循环
巴恩哈特对“外星人是否访问过地球”持开放但怀疑的态度。他说，考古学没有任何证据可以让他引用。DNA的发现者沃森（Watson）曾习惯性使用致幻剂激发思考，他说地球上的DNA太复杂，不可能在可用时间内自然发展出来，可能是从地球外播种的。巴恩哈特说，这个人值得尊重，但他说的也只能作为参考。
他认为，认为外星人足够重要到会来关心人类，这本身就有点人类自大。但从统计学看，宇宙太大，不可能只有我们。问题在于他们是否在乎我们。
他上过几次《远古外星人》节目。他说，拒绝参与对话，在他看来就是直接失败。有一次节目最后问他还有什么想说，他说：你们的前提是外星人很久以前来过，给了人类科学、医学、工程这些礼物。今天我们也有很多外星人故事，但他们现在只是在残害牛和鸡奸乡巴佬。不管我们做了什么，显然把他们惹毛了。
如果真要找外星人考古证据，他会期待看到不属于那个时代的技术，机械的，或者不属于地球的物质。他说，人们常问“他们怎么移动那些大石头的？”但仔细想想：外星人穿越宇宙来见人类，告诉他们的就是怎么移动石头？开玩笑吧？给他们抗生素或者内燃机啊。穿越宇宙来教人搬石头，这说不通。
关于一万年后地球会怎样，巴恩哈特说，要么高度自动化，要么一片焦土。人类有能力毁灭自己。他听过一位播客嘉宾讲核战争的后果，很恐怖。但他是个乐观主义者。他希望像莱克斯这样的人能造出友好机器人，让他的工作更好做。
真正让他害怕的是技术变化的速度。有人说，任何系统，人类系统或生物系统，变化速度远超时间尺度、曲线开始垂直上升，就是处于危机中的系统。把技术变化套进这张图，就是危机。
但他也相信人类的创新能力。人类在困境中比在舒适中更有创造力。必要是发明之母。他认为气候危机是真实的，正在发生。他说，他要回答一个没被问到的问题：他认为人类浪费时间去想逆转气候。这是妄想。他支持电动车和环保，但人类花太多时间假装，普通美国人以为只要都开电动车就没事了。那是胡说。人类需要开始研发海水淡化这类技术，用技术能力去接受和适应，而不是波丽安娜式地幻想能让它消失。
如果外星人类学家来研究地球，多少人类文明会被保留？巴恩哈特说，会腐烂的都会腐烂。他们只能看到没腐烂的东西：建筑、铭牌，但不会有书，不会有广告牌。他们会得到一份不完整的记录，就像他手里的记录一样。
他在苏福尔斯做过一次演讲，说他开车进城时看到一座方尖碑。他走到哪里都看到刘易斯和克拉克的名字。一千年后，如果他是研究这个地方的考古学家，他会以为这座城市由埃及人建立，国王叫刘易斯和克拉克。事实是刘易斯和克拉克只在这里住了一晚，但被当成了大事。所以他会根据保留下来的东西，得出完全错误的结论。
华盛顿特区显然由埃及人、希腊人和罗马人共同建造，因为所有建筑都是那种风格。
那么，我们最可能搞错什么？巴恩哈特说，最可能搞错的是古人的动机。他的老师琳达·谢勒（Linda Schele）曾对他说：如果你不停止用西欧人的方式思考，不试着把自己放进这些人的思维里，你永远理解不了任何东西。他把这句话记在心里。每次研究，都试着跳出自己的文化假设。
献祭就是一个例子。现代人对此很着迷，但那跟野蛮无关。他们献出的是自己最好的东西。这是一种真正的牺牲，一种损失，跟“嘿，大家一起杀掉那个惹我们的人”完全不是一回事。心态不同。
至于那只在陶器上到处出现的小狗，巴恩哈特说，他总有一天要解开这个谜。明年他要写尖牙神的书，会有一整章讲这只小狗。
幽默也是。他在帕伦克和玛雅人一起工作三年，每天在丛林里画地图。他们用克丘亚语互相说话，他注意到他们很爱开玩笑。有人说了一句聪明话，其他人会发出“呼呼”的声音。那声音表示赞赏，针对的是某人说了句巧妙的话，而不是普通的笑话。巴恩哈特说，这让他想到自己翻译象形文字的时候。一段文字可能是诗，可能是政治声明，他却在字典里笨拙地查词义。里面很可能有多重双关，真正的意思是潜台词。他以为他们在说玉米，其实他们在说生命的本质。
有一件玛雅陶器，画着一只兔子看着商人神，文字一直翻译不出来。最后一位乌克兰学者译出来了。兔子对商人神说：弯下腰，闻闻我的屁股。巴恩哈特说，他们本来期待一段美妙的神话，结果是一句粗俗的玩笑。这很人性。
他年轻时在伯利兹丛林发现了一座完整的玛雅城市，被允许命名，叫马阿克斯纳（Ma'ax Na）。那年他25岁。他说，这几乎让他沮丧。他的人生大志就是发现一座失落城市，25岁就完成了，然后想：天啊，接下来做什么？他给NASA写过一堆信，想成为第一个在火星上的考古学家。从没收到回复。他肯定在NASA的怪人名单上。
他怎么找到那座城市的？他用地形图，玩一个游戏：如果我是玛雅人，在这个大区域里，我最想住在哪里？他找最大的山，因为玛雅人管他们的金字塔叫“石山”。他找到那座山，旁边还有两座，构成三角形，他们喜欢三元组，中间有河流。他想，就是这里。他带着学生花了两个季节走到那里。其他研究生说，他只是让学生整天在丛林里闲逛。但他带回了一座城市。
给今天的读者
巴恩哈特对人类的未来有希望。他研究历史，觉得历史像正弦波，有高有低，但无论跌得多低，都会再爬起来，继续攀登。人类会迎接挑战。有些挑战是我们自己制造的，但我们会适应、克服。这就是我们做的事。
他研究的那些人相信生命的循环性。没有死亡作为循环的一部分，生命就无法继续。有低谷，有高峰，但循环永远继续。
他正在推动一个项目，叫“美洲之前”（Before the Americas），想把欧洲接触之前的美洲历史纳入美国K-12课程。他认为美国人有集体失忆，以为欧洲人来之前这里没有伟大文明。这跟事实不符。孩子们应该知道这个国家的完整历史。
如果你想进一步了解这些文明，可以做的事：
- 去听他的播客《ArchaeoEd》，尤其是那些冒险故事集，比单纯讲文化更有趣，也更能感受到考古学家在丛林里到底经历什么。
- 关注他的“伟大课程”（The Great Courses）系列，明年春天会出关于奥尔梅克人与玛雅人互动的新课程。
- 如果你去秘鲁，别只去马丘比丘。卡拉尔、阿斯佩罗、瓦卡普列塔这些更早的遗址，才是理解南美文明起源的关键，而且人少到像登月。
- 如果你去墨西哥，除了特奥蒂瓦坎和奇琴伊察，留意博物馆里那些被标注为“螃蟹神”“狐狸神”的形象，试着用尖牙神祇的视觉特征去重新看一遍，你可能会发现它们是同一张脸。
- 读一读《波波尔·乌》（Popol Vuh），玛雅人的创造故事，理解他们怎么看待多次创造和时间的循环。
- 在自己的城市里找一找原住民历史的痕迹。美国的很多地名、建筑、纪念碑背后都有被遗忘的文明，只是从来没有人问过。
- 对听起来离谱的理论保持开放，但要求证据。巴恩哈特的态度值得学：先试着证伪自己的理论，而不是证明它。
最后，用阿兹特克诗人的一句话收尾：生命不过是戴在死亡脸上的一张面具，那么死亡，是否也只是另一张面具？有多少人能说，面具之后有真相，或者没有？
For the vast majority of human existence, we’ve been nomadic and we’ve done these wider or tighter nomadic circles, depending on the geographic region, but they’d move.
在人类生存的绝大多数时间里，我们一直处于游牧状态，并且根据地理区域的不同，我们已经形成了更宽或更窄的游牧圈，但它们会移动。
00:00 So once humans figured out how to stay in a place, that’s the initial trigger to what would become civilization.
因此，一旦人类弄清楚如何留在一个地方，这就是文明的最初触发点。
I think you said beauty and blood went hand in hand for the Aztec.
我想你说过，对于阿兹特克人来说，美丽和鲜血是齐头并进的。
What I meant by that is they were absolutely comfortable with human sacrifice and ripping people’s hearts out.
我的意思是，他们对活人祭祀和撕心裂肺感到非常满意。
00:24 They had this just grotesque, violent bend, but in the same way, they also absolutely loved flower gardens and poetry and music and dance.
他们有这种怪诞、暴力的倾向，但同样，他们也绝对热爱花园、诗歌、音乐和舞蹈。
The same Aztec king who would order the hearts of 1,000 people extracted also would stand up at dinner parties to recite his own poetry.
这位下令抽取 1000 个人心脏的阿兹特克国王也会在晚宴上站起来背诵他自己的诗歌。
But they were really just surgical about it.
但他们实际上只是在做外科手术。
They’d use a thick obsidian knife where they could just break the ribs right along the sternum and then push the sternum down, pull up, and just [inaudible 00:01:11].
他们会使用一把厚黑曜石刀，沿着胸骨直接折断肋骨，然后将胸骨向下推，向上拉，然后[听不清00:01:11]。
While the person was alive?
当这个人还活着的时候？
Yep, while the person was alive.
是的，当这个人还活着的时候。
The following is a conversation with Ed Barnhart, an archeologist specializing in ancient civilizations of South America, Mesoamerica, and North America.
以下是与专门研究南美洲、中美洲和北美古代文明的考古学家埃德·巴恩哈特的对话。
01:17 This is the Lex Fridman Podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
为了支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。
And now, dear friends, here’s Ed Barnhart.
现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是埃德·巴恩哈特。
01:39 Do you think there are lost civilizations in the history of humans on earth which we don’t know anything about?
您认为地球上人类历史上是否存在我们一无所知的失落文明？
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
01:47 And in fact, we have found some civilizations that we had no idea about just in my lifetime.
事实上，我们发现了一些我们在有生之年还不知道的文明。
I mean, we’ve got Gobekli Tepe and we’ve got the stuff that’s going on in the Amazon, and there’s some other less startling things that we had no idea existed and push our dates back and gave us whole new civilizations we had no idea about.
我的意思是，我们有哥贝克力石阵，我们有亚马逊正在发生的事情，还有其他一些我们不知道存在的不那么令人吃惊的事情，它们把我们的日期推后，给我们带来了我们不知道的全新文明。
So yeah, it’s happened and I think it’ll happen again.
所以是的，它已经发生了，我认为它还会再次发生。
Do you think there’s a loss civilization in the Amazon that the Amazon jungle has eaten up or is hiding the evidence of?
你认为亚马逊丛林中是否存在一种失落的文明，亚马逊丛林已经吞噬了它，或者隐藏了它的证据？
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
02:27 And we’re beginning to find it.
我们正在开始找到它。
There are these huge, what we call geoglyphs, these mound groups that are in geometric patterns.
有这些巨大的，我们所说的地质符号，这些呈几何图案的土丘群。
I think that the average Joe, when they hear the word civilization, they think of something that looks like Rome.
我认为普通人，当他们听到文明这个词时，他们会想到一些看起来像罗马的东西。
And I don’t think we’re ever going to find anything that looks like Rome in the Amazon.
我认为我们永远不会在亚马逊地区找到任何看起来像罗马的东西。
I think a lot of things there, I mean, wherever you are on the planet, you use your natural resources.
我认为有很多事情，我的意思是，无论你在地球上的哪个地方，你都会使用你的自然资源。
And in the Amazon, there’s not a whole lot of stone.
在亚马逊地区，石头并不多。
What stone is there is deep, deep, deep.
那里的石头是什么，很深，很深，很深。
So a lot of their things were built out of dirt and trees and feathers and textiles.
所以他们的很多东西都是用泥土、树木、羽毛和纺织品建造的。
But is it possible that all that land that’s not covered by trees is actually hiding stone, for example, some architecture, some things that are just very difficult to find for archeologists.
但有没有可能所有没有被树木覆盖的土地实际上都隐藏着石头，例如一些建筑，一些考古学家很难找到的东西。
I think at the base of the Andes where the Amazon connects to the Andes, there’s a lot of potential there because that’s where the stone actually starts poking up.
我认为在亚马逊河与安第斯山脉连接处的安第斯山脉底部，那里有很大的潜力，因为那是石头真正开始露出来的地方。
03:22 When you get down into the basin, stone is meters and meters under the ground except for a stray cliff here and there where the river dug deep.
当你进入盆地时，除了河水深挖处的零散悬崖之外，石头在地下有数米深。
And even then only in the dry season, because that river rises over 100 feet every year.
即使这样，也只能在旱季进行，因为那条河每年都会上涨 100 英尺以上。
Well, that’s one of the things, having visited that area, just interacting with waterfalls and seeing the water, I was humbled by the power of water to shape landscapes and probably erase history in the context that we’re talking about of civilizations.
嗯，这是其中一件事，参观了那个地区，只是与瀑布互动并看到了水，我对水塑造景观的力量感到谦卑，并可能在我们谈论的文明背景下抹去历史。
03:51 Water can just make everything disappear over a period of centuries and millennia, and so if there’s something existed a very long time ago, thousands of years ago, it’s very possible it was just eaten up by nature.
水可以让一切在几个世纪、几千年的时间里消失，所以如果有东西在很久以前、几千年前就存在了，它很可能只是被大自然吃掉了。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
04:24 In fact, in my opinion, that’s almost a certainty in a lot of places.
事实上，在我看来，这在很多地方几乎是确定的。
The Grand Canyon was dug by water.
大峡谷是水挖出来的。
There’s this wimpy little river in it right now, and you can’t possibly imagine that it dug that, but it did.
现在里面有一条软弱的小河，你不可能想象它是它挖的，但它确实挖了。
The power of nature and geology is really magical.
自然和地质的力量真是神奇。
And when it comes to ancient civilizations that could be from a long time ago, there’s probably a lot that are just under the ocean, and just the wave action have destroyed them and what they haven’t destroyed buried deep.
当谈到可能来自很久以前的古代文明时，可能有很多就在海底，仅仅波浪作用就摧毁了它们，以及它们没有摧毁深埋的东西。
Under the ocean.
在海洋之下。
04:58 So you think Atlantis ever existed?
那么你认为亚特兰蒂斯曾经存在过吗？
I don’t think that Atlantis existed.
我不认为亚特兰蒂斯存在。
05:03 I do think it was one of Plato’s many parables talking about putting it in an interesting story as a teaching device in his school.
我确实认为这是柏拉图的许多寓言之一，谈论将其放入一个有趣的故事中作为他学校的教学工具。
If one did exist or a shadow of it, my money would be on Akrotiri.
如果确实存在或者只有它的影子，我的钱就会投在阿克罗蒂里。
Akrotiri is what’s left of a big city that was on the island of Santorini, and when their volcano blew up, it blew up most of the city and shot chunks of it so vast that 70 miles away in Crete there are chunks of Santorini in their cliff.
阿克罗蒂里是圣托里尼岛上一座大城市的遗迹，当他们的火山爆发时，它炸毁了这座城市的大部分地区，并将其大块炸毁，以至于70英里外的克里特岛的悬崖上都出现了圣托里尼的大块。
So it blasted what was ever there.
所以它炸毁了曾经存在的东西。
But what’s left on the side of the crater Akrotiri is strangely advanced for its age.
但阿克罗蒂里陨石坑一侧留下的东西相对其年龄来说却出奇地先进。
And so if there’s anything that’s a model for Atlantis, as Plato explained it, it’s Akrotiri.
因此，正如柏拉图所解释的那样，如果有什么东西是亚特兰蒂斯的典范的话，那就是阿克罗蒂里。
Akrotiri, the ancient Greek city, it says, “The settlement was destroyed in the Theran eruption sometime in the 16th century BCE and buried in volcanic ash, which preserved the remains of the frescoes and many objects and artworks.” So we don’t know how advanced that civilization was.
古希腊城市阿克罗蒂里，它说，“这个定居点在公元前 16 世纪的塞兰火山喷发中被摧毁，并被火山灰掩埋，其中保留了壁画的遗迹以及许多物品和艺术品。”所以我们不知道那个文明有多先进。
No, but we can walk around the ruins and see that it’s got streets, it’s got plumbing, it’s got little sconces for torches at night.
不，但我们可以绕着废墟走一圈，看看那里有街道，有管道，还有晚上可以拿火把的小壁灯。
06:19 It was a vibrant city with a lot of, especially in terms of hydraulic engineering, it’s very advanced for being 3,500 years old.
这是一座充满活力的城市，有很多，特别是在水利工程方面，它拥有 3,500 年的历史，非常先进。
So if you check it out, here’s an image of the excavation.
所以如果你检查一下，这是一张挖掘的图片。
06:42 What a project.
多么好的一个项目啊。
It’s an amazing place and you can tell that it’s just part of it because it’s pretty close to where the crater begins.
这是一个令人惊叹的地方，你可以看出它只是其中的一部分，因为它非常靠近火山口的起点。
06:47 So the city itself was probably much larger.
所以城市本身可能要大得多。
So in this case, there’s a lot of evidence, but like we said, there could be civilizations that there is very little evidence of because of the natural environment that destroys all the evidence.
所以在这种情况下，有很多证据，但就像我们说的，可能存在证据很少的文明，因为自然环境摧毁了所有证据。
Right.
正确的。
07:09 And I think Akrotiri’s actually a great example of that because here we have the side that did preserve, that looks amazing, but we know there was more of the city that was completely obliterated.
我认为阿克罗蒂里实际上是一个很好的例子，因为这里我们有保存完好的一面，看起来很棒，但我们知道这座城市的更多部分被完全摧毁了。
It was shot.
被枪杀了。
Chunks of that city are probably in the walls of Crete 70 miles away, and Plato says that it sunk.
那座城市的大部分碎片可能就在 70 英里外的克里特岛城墙上，柏拉图说它沉没了。
It was on an island and it sunk.
它在一个岛上，然后沉没了。
Well, that’s exactly what happened to Akrotiri.
嗯，这正是阿克罗蒂里发生的事情。
Do you think this is what Plato was referring to?
你认为这就是柏拉图所说的吗？
If it does exist, at least the model of it, I think this is probably what he was talking about.
如果它确实存在，至少是它的模型，我想这可能就是他所说的。
And there could be other civilizations of which Plato has never written that we have no record of?
是否存在柏拉图从未写过但我们没有记录的其他文明？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
And it’s humbling to think that entire civilizations with all the dreams, the hope, the technological innovation, the wars, the conflicts, the political tensions, all of that, the social interactions, the hierarchies, all of that, the art can be just destroyed like that and forgotten, completely lost to ancient history.
令人感到谦卑的是，整个文明拥有所有的梦想、希望、技术创新、战争、冲突、政治紧张局势，所有这些，社会互动、等级制度，所有这些，艺术就这样被摧毁并被遗忘，完全消失在古代历史中。
I reflect upon that often as an archeologist.
作为一名考古学家，我经常反思这一点。
08:13 I think about this great country that I live in and love and all the things we’ve achieved, but we’re a baby historically speaking.
我想到了我所生活和热爱的这个伟大的国家，以及我们所取得的所有成就，但从历史上看，我们还是一个婴儿。
We’ve been around 200 years.
我们已经有大约200年的历史了。
Heck, a lot of the cities I study in Central and South America, they had a run of 800, 1,000 years, and now they’re ruins.
哎呀，我在中美洲和南美洲研究的很多城市，它们已经存在了 800、1000 年，现在却成了废墟。
But we’re barely getting started in terms of historical civilizations.
但就历史文明而言，我们才刚刚开始。
So humans, homo sapiens evolved, but they didn’t start civilizations right away.
所以人类，智人进化了，但他们并没有立即开始文明。
08:43 There was a long period of time when they did not form these complex societies.
他们有很长一段时间没有形成这些复杂的社会。
So how do we, let’s say, 300,000 years ago in Africa, actually go from there to creating civilizations?
那么，比如说，30 万年前的非洲，我们如何真正从那里开始创造文明呢？
I think that a lot of human evolution had to do with the pressures that their environment put upon them.
我认为人类的进化很大程度上与环境施加给他们的压力有关。
09:04 And a lot of things start changing right around 12,000 years ago, and that’s when our last ice age really ended.
大约 12,000 年前，很多事情开始发生变化，那时我们的上一个冰河时代才真正结束。
I think there was a whole lot of things that just pressured them into, especially, finding new ways of subsistence.
我认为有很多事情迫使他们，特别是寻找新的生存方式。
Here in the Americas, a huge thing that happened was all the megafauna went away.
在美洲，发生了一件大事，所有的巨型动物都消失了。
When the climate changed enough, the mammoths died out and the bison died out, and they had to come up with different ways of doing things.
当气候变化足够大时，猛犸象和野牛都灭绝了，他们必须想出不同的做事方式。
We were hunters and gatherers, and we had things we got from hunting, and we got things we got from gathering.
我们是猎人和采集者，我们有从狩猎中获得的东西，也有从采集中获得的东西。
And in the Americas, when the things that they were used to hunting went away and they had to make do with rabbits, the gathering started to be a much more important thing.
在美洲，当他们习惯于狩猎的东西消失了，他们不得不用兔子来凑合时，聚会开始变得更加重要。
10:10 And I think that led to figuring out, “Hey, we could actually grow certain things.” And gardens turned into crops, turned into intensive crops, and then people were allowed to gather in bigger groups and survive in a single area.
我认为这让我们明白，“嘿，我们实际上可以种植某些东西。”花园变成了农作物，变成了集约化农作物，然后人们被允许聚集在更大的群体中并在一个区域中生存。
They didn’t have to roam around anymore and that’s where we get the first sedentary communities, which means they stayed in the same place all year long.
他们不再需要四处游荡，这就是我们获得第一个久坐社区的地方，这意味着他们全年都呆在同一个地方。
For the vast majority of human existence, we’ve been nomadic and we’ve done these wider or tighter nomadic circles depending on the geographic region where they’d know, “Okay, we’ll be in the summer in the mountains because berries and things, and then in the winter we’ll be down here and we’ll hunt,” but they’d move.
对于绝大多数人类来说，我们都是游牧的，我们根据地理区域进行了更宽或更窄的游牧圈，他们知道，“好吧，我们会在夏天在山上，因为浆果和其他东西，然后在冬天我们会在这里打猎，”但他们会搬家。
So once humans figured out how to stay in a place, I think there, that’s the initial trigger to what would become civilization.
因此，一旦人类弄清楚如何留在一个地方，我认为，这就是文明的最初触发点。
There’s a lot of questions I want to ask here.
这里有很多问题我想问。
11:08 What do you think is the motivation for societies?
您认为社会的动力是什么？
Is it the carrot or the stick?
是胡萝卜还是大棒？
So you said, is it when resources run out, when the old way of life is no longer feeding everybody, then you have to figure stuff out?
所以你说，是不是当资源耗尽时，当旧的生活方式不再养活每个人时，你就必须想办法解决问题？
Or is it more the carrot of there’s always this human spirit that wants to explore, that wants to maybe impress the rest of the village or something like this with the new discovery they made in venturing out and coming out with different ideas or technological innovation, let’s call it?
或者更多的是因为总有一种人类精神想要探索，想要给村里的其他人留下深刻的印象，或者类似的东西，他们在冒险中提出不同的想法或技术创新，让我们称之为新发现？
Well, I have an explorer’s heart, so I’m biased.
好吧，我有一颗探索者的心，所以我有偏见。
11:42 I do think that we have an innate desire to see what’s on the horizon and to impress other people with our achievements, things like that.
我确实认为我们有一种与生俱来的渴望，想要看到即将发生的事情，并用我们的成就给别人留下深刻的印象，诸如此类。
We’re social beings.
我们是社会人。
That’s really the edge that humans have, is our ability to work together.
这确实是人类所拥有的优势，那就是我们合作的能力。
So I think that it’s much more the carrot than the stick.
所以我认为这更像是胡萝卜而不是大棒。
When things get ugly, the stick comes out, but usually the carrot does the job.
当事情变得丑陋时，大棒就出来了，但通常胡萝卜就能起到作用。
The really interesting story is how the first people came to the Americas.
真正有趣的故事是第一批人如何来到美洲。
12:16 To me, that’s pretty gangster, to go from Asia all the way potentially during the ice Age or maybe at the end of the ice age or during that whole period not knowing what the world looks like going into the unknown.
对我来说，这真是太匪夷所思了，从亚洲一路出发，可能是在冰河时代，或者可能是在冰河时代末期，或者在整个时期都不知道世界是什么样子，进入未知世界。
Can you talk to that process?
你能谈谈这个过程吗？
How did the first people come to the Americas?
第一批人类是如何来到美洲的？
Well, first off, I agree with you, that was pretty gangster.
好吧，首先，我同意你的观点，那是相当黑帮的。
12:39 That’s a hard place to live.
那是一个很难居住的地方。
I listened to some of your podcasts, that guy, Jordan Jonas, he cut the mustard, but I wouldn’t have made it crossing there.
我听了你的一些播客，那个人，乔丹·乔纳斯，他切芥末，但我不会去那里。
Well, there you go.
好吧，就这样吧。
12:52 The fact that those guys exist, that somebody like Jordan Jonas exists, people that survive and thrive in these harsh conditions, that’s an indication that it’s possible.
事实上，这些人的存在，像乔丹·乔纳斯这样的人的存在，在这些恶劣的条件下生存和发展的人，这表明这是可能的。
So when do you think and how did the first people come?
那么你认为第一批人是什么时候以及如何出现的呢？
The traditional theories are still somewhat valid, or at least on the table, that when that land bridge occurred, that nomadic hunters just followed the game like they always had and the game went across there because there was no barrier, and they followed them across.
传统的理论仍然有一定的道理，或者至少在表面上是这样的，即当那座陆桥出现时，游牧猎人就像往常一样跟随猎物，猎物从那里穿过，因为没有障碍物，他们跟着它们过去。
13:11 The thing that has changed is how early that happened.
改变的是发生的时间有多早。
DNA has been a total game changer for archeology.
DNA 彻底改变了考古学的游戏规则。
We get all these evolutionary tracks that we could never see before.
我们得到了所有这些我们以前从未见过的进化轨迹。
When I was a young archeologist, I would’ve never dreamed we’d have the information we have now and that information, a lot of it’s coming out of Texas A&M.
当我还是一名年轻的考古学家时，我从未梦想过我们会拥有现在所拥有的信息，而且这些信息很多都来自德克萨斯农工大学。
We see the traditional 12,500 years ago that there was a migration, but now we’re seeing one that’s almost certainly happening closer to 30,000 years ago.
我们传统上认为 12,500 年前就发生了迁徙，但现在我们看到几乎肯定发生在 30,000 年前。
14:08 And now the thing that seems like madness but might be true is that it could have been as early as 60.
现在看来有些疯狂但可能是真的事情是，它可能早在 60 岁就出现了。
A lot of the DNA things are suggesting that the very first migration could have come across as early as 60.
许多 DNA 数据表明，第一次迁徙可能早在 60 年前就发生了。
And when I was a younger archeologist, it was heresy to go beyond this 12,500.
当我还是一名年轻的考古学家时，超过这 12,500 人就是异端邪说。
You were a wacko if you said that, but now it’s really very clear that they came over at least by 30,000 and the bridge opened and closed, then open and closed.
如果你这么说，那你就是个疯子，但现在很明显，他们至少有 30,000 人过来，桥梁打开又关闭，然后打开又关闭。
That’s during the Ice Age?
那是在冰河时代吗？
Right.
正确的。
I mean, that’s crazy, right?
我的意思是，这太疯狂了，对吧？
14:45 That is crazy.
那太疯狂了。
Yeah.
是的。
14:48 I mean, they didn’t roll in and immediately make New York, but there were people.
我的意思是，他们并没有立即进入纽约，但有人。
And there were definitely not people here before that, which is fascinating.
而且在此之前这里绝对没有人，这很有趣。
When the bridge closed, DNA mutated, and so we have specific kinds of haplogroups that are here in the Americas that don’t exist otherwise, and that same haplogroup game has been showing us more and more that people came across Siberia.
当桥梁关闭时，DNA 发生突变，因此我们在美洲拥有了其他情况下不存在的特定类型的单倍群，而同一个单倍群游戏已经越来越多地向我们展示了人们来到了西伯利亚。
It’s not Africa.
这不是非洲。
It’s not Western Europe.
这不是西欧。
Those are still, they’ve become fringe theories, but they’re not totally eradicated.
这些仍然是，它们已经成为边缘理论，但它们并没有完全根除。
DNA is a developing science as well, and I think we all need to keep that in mind, that it’s not like they just cracked the code and now we know all the answers.
DNA 也是一门正在发展的科学，我认为我们都需要牢记这一点，这并不是说他们刚刚破解了密码，现在我们就知道了所有的答案。
And sometimes, like in any science, a breakthrough puts us two steps backwards, not forwards.
有时，就像任何科学一样，突破会让我们倒退两步，而不是前进。
So I think we don’t need to have too much faith in the models that are now being created through DNA, but they are pointing in the direction of everybody came across from Siberia, that all Native American people are of Asiatic descent.
所以我认为我们不需要对现在通过 DNA 创建的模型抱有太多信心，但它们指向每个来自西伯利亚的人的方向，即所有美洲原住民都是亚洲血统。
Do you think it was a gradual process?
你认为这是一个渐进的过程吗？
16:06 If it’s like 30,000 to 60,000 years ago, was it just gradual movement of these nomadic tribes as they follow the animals?
如果是在三万到六万年前，这些游牧部落只是跟随动物逐渐移动的吗？
Or was it like one explorer that pushed the tribe to just go, go, go, go, and go maybe across 100 years travel all the way across maybe into North America, where Canada is now, and then big leaps in movement versus gradual movement?
还是像一位探险家一样，推动部落走、走、走、走、走，也许跨越 100 年，一路穿越也许到达北美，也就是现在的加拿大，然后是大跃进，而不是渐进运动？
I think it was big leaps.
我认为这是一个巨大的飞跃。
16:44 Now, this is just mostly guess, I’ll admit, but I think that much in the way that a lot of our evolutionary models talk about punctuated equilibrium, that there are big moments of change and then it settles out into a more slow and steady pattern, and then something big will happen again.
现在，我承认，这主要只是猜测，但我认为这就像我们的许多进化模型谈论间断平衡的方式一样，存在重大的变化时刻，然后它进入一个更缓慢和稳定的模式，然后大事会再次发生。
I do think that the early people went as far as they could go, and there were certain colonies that just got isolated for thousands of years.
我确实认为早期的人们已经尽了最大的努力，并且有些殖民地被孤立了数千年。
One of the fascinating things that DNA is showing us, which actually blood types were showing us way before that, is that the oldest people in the Americas are in South America, the ones that got separated early and didn’t mix their DNA, like the people in the Amazon.
DNA 向我们展示的一件令人着迷的事情，实际上血型早在这之前就已经向我们展示了，那就是美洲最古老的人在南美洲，他们很早就分开并且没有混合他们的 DNA，就像亚马逊人一样。
17:41 Most of those guys have O-blood type and they’re haplogroup D, which is the oldest one that entered the U.S. And what are they doing down there?
这些人大多数都是 O 型血，他们是单倍群 D，这是进入美国最古老的单倍群，他们在那里做什么？
I do believe they came across the Bering Strait.
我确实相信他们跨越了白令海峡。
We have no real evidence to say they came in mass across Oceania.
我们没有真正的证据表明它们大规模地穿越大洋洲。
So they made it probably by boat along the coast all the way to South America.
所以他们可能是乘船沿着海岸一路到达南美洲。
So there’s some kind of cultural engine that drove them to explore.
所以有某种文化引擎驱使他们去探索。
18:11 So if you had to bet all your money, it happened like tens of thousands of years ago, but in a very rapid pace.
因此，如果你必须赌上所有的钱，这就像几万年前发生的那样，但速度非常快。
There’s these explorers.
有这些探险家。
They went all the way to South America and there established their more stable existence.
他们千里迢迢来到了南美洲，并在那里建立了更加稳定的存在。
And from there, South America, Mesoamerica, North America was gradually expanded into that area?
然后从那里开始，南美洲、中美洲、北美洲逐渐扩展到那个地区？
I think the next waves came down and did North America and Central America, and the very first wave made it all the way down to South America and got isolated there.
我认为下一波浪潮袭来，影响了北美和中美洲，而第一波浪潮则一路到达南美洲，并在那里被孤立。
Isolated.
孤立。
And then mixed in with the next groups that came.
然后混入下一批来的人。
That’s fascinating.
这很有趣。
There’s an interesting correlate in Europe where today everybody feels like Celtic people are from Ireland, but actually Celtic people started in Eastern Europe and it was the entire area.
在欧洲有一个有趣的关联，今天每个人都觉得凯尔特人来自爱尔兰，但实际上凯尔特人起源于东欧，而且是整个地区。
18:57 And when Rome swept everything and Rome was now the ruler of the day, it was only that far edge of the Celtic world, Ireland, that they were like, “Ah, we’re not going to mess with those guys on that island.
当罗马横扫一切、成为当时的统治者时，只有凯尔特世界的遥远边缘——爱尔兰，他们才会说，“啊，我们不会去惹那个岛上的那些家伙。
We’ll leave them be.” So now it looks like that’s the heart of Celtic tradition, but actually it’s the fringe.
我们就不去管他们了。”所以现在看来这是凯尔特传统的核心，但实际上它是边缘。
So if it is 60,000 years ago, these are really early humans?
那么如果是六万年前，这些真的是早期人类吗？
Yeah.
是的。
19:43 And there were consistent things that have been coming out for decades about very old carbon-14 dates in the Amazon and in the Andes area that everybody just dismissed as, “No, it didn’t get a date of 40,000 years.” But I think we’re going to come back around to start readdressing some of these based on new evidence at hand.
几十年来，关于亚马逊和安第斯地区非常古老的碳 14 年代测定结果，一直存在着一致的结果，但每个人都认为“不，它没有得到 4 万年的年代”。但我认为我们会回过头来，根据手头的新证据，开始重新解决其中的一些问题。
And that’s the interesting thing.
这就是有趣的事情。
20:08 The early human spread throughout the world and then, like you said, perhaps have gotten isolated, and then civilizations sprung from there, and they all have similar elements even though they were isolated.
早期人类散布到世界各地，然后，就像你说的，也许已经被孤立了，然后文明就从那里涌现出来，尽管它们是孤立的，但它们都有相似的元素。
That’s really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
That’s really interesting that there’s multiple cradles of civilization, not just one.
这真的很有趣，文明的摇篮有多个，而不仅仅是一个。
One good idea, those ideas naturally come up.
一个好主意，这些想法自然就会出现。
Those structures naturally come up.
这些结构自然就会出现。
And I wonder whether the similarities that all those cradles have, it could be a shared much deeper past that they all have, or it could be a more Star Trek thing where Captain Kirk was always talking about the theory of parallel human development, that humans across the universe go through certain stages of development and that, that could be the answer to it.
我想知道所有这些摇篮是否有相似之处，这可能是他们都拥有的共同的更深层次的过去，或者可能是更像《星际迷航》的东西，柯克船长总是在谈论人类平行发展的理论，宇宙中的人类都会经历某些发展阶段，这可能就是答案。
Which one do you lean on?
你靠的是哪一个？
21:09 Which one do you lean towards?
你倾向于哪一种？
I think it’s a case by case thing.
我认为这是具体情况而定的事情。
21:12 I think if we look globally, I’d lean much more towards the human parallel development.
我认为如果我们放眼全球，我会更倾向于人类并行发展。
But if I look just to the Americas and we have a shorter time period where the things that become major civilizations, now, I’ll say up to 30,000 years ago, which is still a blip in the time of humans, I think that there were shared things that those people came over with from Asia and that, as they got separated, that they had core values that then turned into things like religion and cultural customs that we can see.
但如果我只看美洲，我们有一个较短的时间段，那些东西成为主要文明的东西，现在，我会说，直到三万年前，这仍然是人类时代的一个昙花一现，我认为这些人从亚洲过来，有一些共同的东西，当他们分开时，他们有核心价值观，然后变成了我们可以看到的宗教和文化习俗等东西。
I’m a big proponent that there are commonalities in all the cultures of the Americas that lead back to and point to a single distant origin.
我非常支持美洲所有文化都有共同点，这些共同点可以追溯到并指向一个遥远的起源。
You’ve spoken about the lost cradle of civilization, South America.
您谈到了失落的文明摇篮——南美洲。
22:07 South America is not often talked about as one of the cradles of civilization, South America, Mesoamerica.
南美洲并不常被称为文明的摇篮之一、南美洲、中美洲。
Can you explain?
你能解释一下吗？
Well, we have very early stuff in South America.
嗯，我们在南美有很早的东西。
22:21 You’re right.
你说得对。
Especially as an American, our country’s so big and we are so far removed from these places, we don’t even think about it.
尤其是作为一个美国人，我们的国家如此之大，而我们离这些地方又如此遥远，我们甚至没有想到这一点。
But more and more we’re seeing things that predate the earliest stuff that we like to talk about, like Egypt and Mesopotamia.
但我们越来越多地看到早于我们喜欢谈论的最早事物的事物，例如埃及和美索不达米亚。
It’s all on the Peruvian coast that we have these cradles of civilization.
秘鲁海岸是我们文明的摇篮。
Someday we might start talking about the Amazon more and more, but right now what we’ve got are things that date back into the 3000s BCE along the coast of Peru.
有一天我们可能会开始越来越多地谈论亚马逊，但现在我们所拥有的都是可以追溯到公元前 3000 年代秘鲁海岸的东西。
And there are big stone-built pyramids and temples, and they’re amazingly isolated, even now that we’ve found them.
还有巨大的石头建造的金字塔和寺庙，即使现在我们已经发现了它们，它们仍然令人惊讶地与世隔绝。
23:18 Some of them, Caral is one of the most famous ones just north of Lima, we’ve known about it for a couple of decades now, how old it is.
其中一些，卡拉尔是利马北部最著名的之一，我们已经知道它几十年了，它有多古老了。
But every time I visit there, it’s like I visited the moon.
但每次我访问那里，就像我访问了月球一样。
There’s absolutely nobody there, not for miles.
那里绝对没有人，方圆几英里都没有。
It’s amazing how such a discovery was made, and yet still nobody goes to see it.
令人惊奇的是，这样的发现是如何被发现的，但仍然没有人去看它。
It’s not easy to get to.
想要到达并不容易。
So you think there’s a bunch of locations like that?
所以你认为有很多这样的地方吗？
23:43 Some may not have been discovered in the Peru area.
有些可能在秘鲁地区尚未发现。
Oh, there are so many.
哦，有这么多。
23:48 Peru has tons.
秘鲁有很多。
That desert gets really ugly quick and it buries things completely.
那片沙漠很快就会变得非常丑陋，它会把东西完全掩埋起来。
There are so many pyramids out there that are still completely untouched.
那里有很多金字塔仍然完全未被破坏。
When people hear the name pyramids, they think of Egypt immediately.
当人们听到金字塔这个名字时，他们立即想到埃及。
Egypt has got about 140 pyramids, and we have pretty much found them all.
埃及大约有 140 座金字塔，我们几乎已经全部找到了。
Peru has thousands, thousands of pyramids, and not all of them were built of stone.
秘鲁有成千上万座金字塔，但并非所有金字塔都是用石头建造的。
Some of them were Adobe bricks, which have weathered terribly, so now they’re not exciting places to visit today.
其中一些是土坯砖，已经风化得很厉害，所以现在它们已经不再是值得参观的地方了。
What’s funny too, we started off talking about whether I think there’s a lost civilization out there, there are definitely things that are still to be discovered, but there are some things that were discovered 100 years ago and archeologists, or back then they call themselves antiquarians, just passed over.
还有有趣的是，我们开始讨论我是否认为那里有一个失落的文明，肯定有一些东西有待发现，但有些东西是100年前发现的，而考古学家，或者当时他们自称古物学家，只是忽略了。
24:50 Caral was one of these sites because the coast of Peru has, some of those pyramids that were made by the Moche are full of gold and beautiful ceramics, things that you can sell for big money.
卡拉尔就是这些遗址之一，因为秘鲁海岸有一些莫切人建造的金字塔，里面充满了黄金和漂亮的陶瓷，这些东西你可以卖大钱。
But Caral was found a long time ago, but the archeologist was like, “God, no gold, no ceramics.
但卡拉尔很久以前就被发现了，但考古学家却说，“天哪，没有黄金，没有陶瓷。
Forget about it.
忘记它吧。
This place is no good.
这个地方不好。
We can’t sell anything here.” And then about the 1970s or ’80s, somebody said, “Hey, no ceramics.
我们这里不能卖任何东西。”然后大约在 20 世纪 70 年代或 80 年代，有人说：“嘿，不要陶瓷。
Is that older than the invention of ceramics?
这比陶瓷的发明还要早吗？
Shit, we better go take another look at that place.”
妈的，我们还是去那个地方再看看吧。”
So what’s the dating on Caral?
那么卡拉尔上的约会是什么呢？
Caral, I think, starts at about 3200 BCE, and it lasts as a major civilization with a lot of other cities around it until about 1800 BCE.
我认为卡拉尔始于公元前 3200 年左右，作为一个主要文明，周围有许多其他城市，它一直持续到公元前 1800 年左右。
So what’s the story behind looking at some of these images?
那么，观看这些图像背后的故事是什么？
25:47 What’s the story about constructions like that?
这样的建筑有什么故事呢？
What was the idea of that thing?
那件事的想法是什么？
Isn’t that amazing?
这不是很神奇吗？
Gosh, it should be some sort of, I’ll be a flaky archeologist like, “This is a place where rituals took place.”
天哪，这应该是某种，我会是一个古怪的考古学家，比如，“这是一个举行仪式的地方。”
It could mean a million [inaudible 00:26:09].
这可能意味着一百万 [听不清 00:26:09]。
So many things we say are so just painfully vague, and that’s about what we got.
我们所说的很多事情都非常模糊，这就是我们所得到的。
26:08 A place like this, I know the one we’re looking at here, I’ve been here a couple of times, in the pyramid behind it, the rubble’s built in a way where the building won’t rock apart.
像这样的地方，我知道我们在这里看到的那个，我来过这里好几次了，在它后面的金字塔里，瓦砾的建造方式使建筑物不会摇晃。
This is a very earthquake-prone place, but the buildings haven’t fallen because they make these net baskets of rocks inside that all wiggle around and don’t allow the building to fall down.
这是一个地震频发的地方，但建筑物并没有倒塌，因为他们在里面做了这些用岩石制成的网篮，所有这些都在晃动，不让建筑物倒塌。
And inside these, we’ve also found a couple of things that were babies, that were human babies that were buried in there.
在这些里面，我们还发现了一些婴儿的东西，是埋在那里的人类婴儿。
There’s a lot of people that see that and go, “Oh, look at that.
很多人看到这一点后都会说：“哦，看看那个。
They were sacrificing babies, these monsters.”
他们正在牺牲婴儿，这些怪物。”
26:56 I think a lot of the things that are interpreted as baby sacrifices, Coral’s evidence being one of them, I think it’s more about the tragic nature of infant mortality.
我认为很多事情都被解释为婴儿牺牲，珊瑚的证据就是其中之一，我认为这更多的是关于婴儿死亡的悲剧性。
In the past, it was a lot more common.
在过去，这种情况更为常见。
There were cultures that didn’t even really properly name their kid until they got to five, because chances were they were going to die.
有些文化甚至在孩子长到五岁时才真正给他们起正确的名字，因为他们很可能会死。
And so I think a lot of these babies that we find in these ceremonial contexts that are interpreted as sacrifices, I think they’re putting them in special places because they mourn the death of their kids, and it just happened a lot more frequently then.
所以我认为我们在这些仪式中发现的很多婴儿都被解释为牺牲，我认为他们把他们放在特殊的地方，因为他们哀悼孩子的死亡，而且这种情况发生得更频繁。
One of the things you said that really surprised me is that pyramids were built in Peru possibly hundreds of years before they were built in Egypt.
你说的让我真正惊讶的一件事是，金字塔是在秘鲁建造的，可能比埃及建造早数百年。
27:36 Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
27:47 Absolutely.
绝对地。
That’s crazy.
这太疯狂了。
In fact, there’s one that’s now pushing 6000 BCE.
事实上，现在有一个正在推动公元前 6000 年。
27:48 That’s thousands of years before the stuff in Egypt.
这比埃及的事情早了数千年。
And that one’s called Huaca Prieta.
那个叫Huaca Prieta。
And it was not an Egyptian pyramid, but it was a pyramid and it was thousands of years before.
它不是埃及金字塔，但它是一座金字塔，而且是几千年前的金字塔。
What do you think is the motivation to build a pyramid?
您认为建造金字塔的动机是什么？
28:13 The fact that it can withstand the elements structurally, that kind of thing?
事实上，它在结构上能够承受这些因素，诸如此类的事情？
Why do humans build pyramids and why do they build it in all kinds of different locations in the world?
人类为什么要建造金字塔，为什么要在世界各地不同的地方建造金字塔？
Well, my rude answer is pretty boring, really.
好吧，我粗鲁的回答真的很无聊。
28:31 A lot of people ask me, “Why are there pyramids all over the planet?
很多人问我：“为什么地球上到处都是金字塔？
Is that a coincidence?” I think that when people wanted to build a big building without rebar or cement, you end up building something with a fat base that goes up to a skinny top, and that turns into a pyramid.
这是巧合吗？”我认为，当人们想要建造一座没有钢筋或水泥的大型建筑时，你最终会建造一些底部肥厚、顶部细长的东西，最终变成金字塔。
Any kid who’s playing with blocks on the floor builds a couple towers and his brother knocks them down, and if he wants one that’s going to stay and be tall, he ends up making something with a fat base and a tiny top.
任何在地板上玩积木的孩子都会建造几座塔，然后他的兄弟将它们推倒，如果他想要一座能够留下来并且很高的塔，他最终会建造一些底部很厚、顶部很小的东西。
And I think that building something big and tall together is one of those human things like, “We built that.
我认为共同建造又大又高的东西是人类的事情之一，比如“我们建造了它。
That will be here after we’re gone.
我们走后它还会在这里。
People will remember who we were.” If there’s any human commonality, it’s fear of our own deaths and that we were nothing and no one will ever remember us.
人们会记住我们是谁。”如果说人类有什么共性的话，那就是害怕自己的死亡，害怕自己一无是处，没有人会记得我们。
I think that the first big monuments like that were probably a group of people saying, “We’re going to do something that people will remember forever.”
我认为第一个像这样的大型纪念碑可能是一群人在说：“我们要做一些人们将永远记住的事情。”
29:42 Now, that being said, remember we were just talking about Huaca Prieta and this one that’s almost 6000 BC now, is the first one, that one’s a funny case.
话虽这么说，请记住我们刚刚谈论的是胡亚卡普里塔 (Huaca Prieta)，而这个距今大约 6000 年的历史是第一个，这是一个有趣的案例。
We just talked about all these lofty goals, but actually I’m pretty sure that Huaca Prieta’s first pyramid was about capping a smelly pile of trash.
我们刚刚谈论了所有这些崇高的目标，但实际上我很确定胡亚卡普里塔的第一个金字塔是为了盖住一堆发臭的垃圾。
I think everybody piled up their trash in the middle of town and it stunk.
我想每个人都把垃圾堆在市中心，而且很臭。
It’s on the coast.
它在海岸上。
It stunk like fish.
它像鱼一样臭。
And somebody said, “If we just bury this thing with dirt, it won’t smell anymore.” And then it was a big mound where people could get up and talk to everybody and then said, “Well, it’s squishy.
有人说：“如果我们把这个东西用泥土埋起来，它就不会再有臭味了。”然后这是一个大土堆，人们可以站起来与每个人交谈，然后说：“嗯，它很软。
If we cap it with clay, then it will really not smell.” I really think that the very first pyramids in Peru were about trash management.
如果我们用粘土盖住它，那么它就真的没有气味了。”我真的认为秘鲁的第一座金字塔是关于垃圾管理的。
Talk about deflating, huh?
谈论泄气，是吧？
Yeah.
是的。
30:38 But then they probably saw it and they were impressed and humbled by the enormity of the construction, and they were like, maybe the next guy thought, “Maybe we should keep building these kinds of things.”
但后来他们可能看到了它，并对巨大的建筑印象深刻并感到谦卑，他们就像，也许下一个人会想，“也许我们应该继续建造这些东西。”
Yeah.
是的。
30:50 Not to jump ahead, but in North America, where they also made pyramids, there’s this interesting evolution where there were these piles of shells along rivers and along the coastlines.
不要跳到前面，但在北美，他们也建造了金字塔，有一个有趣的演变，沿着河流和海岸线有这些成堆的贝壳。
People ate a lot of shells.
人们吃了很多贝壳。
That was an easy thing to collect and eat.
那是很容易收集和食用的东西。
So these piles of shells would be near communities, and they probably became landmarks, but eventually they started burying their dead inside those too.
因此，这些炮弹堆将位于社区附近，它们可能成为地标，但最终他们也开始将死者埋在里面。
Probably, again, about stink and about, “Well, we don’t want the dogs to eat them.
可能又是关于臭味和“好吧，我们不想让狗吃它们。
Maybe we’ll put them in the middle of the shell pile.” But then that all of a sudden became this, ” That’s where my grandfather’s body is.
也许我们会把它们放在贝壳堆的中间。”但突然就变成了这样：“那就是我祖父的尸体。”
That’s where great-grandfather’s body is.” And all of a sudden people started being attached to place, not just for the resources, but for the shared memories of their ancestors.
那就是曾祖父的尸体。”突然之间，人们开始对某个地方产生依恋，不仅仅是为了资源，更是为了他们祖先的共同记忆。
So when the very first pyramid was built in the Ohio area by the Adena people, it was built out of dirt, but it’s full of bodies.
因此，当阿德纳人在俄亥俄地区建造第一座金字塔时，它是用泥土建造的，但里面却充满了尸体。
And I think it’s an echo of an old thing where they used to be putting bodies in shell mounds.
我认为这是对过去人们将尸体放入贝壳堆中的旧事物的回响。
So where and who were the first civilizations in South America, Mesoamerica?
那么南美洲、中美洲的第一个文明在哪里、是谁呢？
Well, I think we’re still piecing that together.
好吧，我认为我们仍在将其拼凑在一起。
32:09 Coming back to the first things we talked about, I think we’re still missing a lot of stuff, especially in South America.
回到我们首先讨论的事情，我认为我们仍然遗漏了很多东西，尤其是在南美洲。
It just keeps getting older and older.
它只是变得越来越老。
Part of the reason it’s hard to answer that question is, at what point do we consider people a civilization or a culture?
这个问题很难回答的部分原因是，我们在什么时候将人们视为一种文明或文化？
We have in the Americas this long period of time that we call the Paleo-Indian time where they were hunting megafauna.
在美洲，我们有一段很长的时期，我们称之为古印度时期，他们在这段时间内狩猎巨型动物。
And then when those went away, we get into this even longer period of time called The Archaic, where they’re just hunters and gatherers.
然后，当这些人消失后，我们进入了称为“远古时代”的更长时期，在那里他们只是猎人和采集者。
Sometimes somebody’s coming up with a cool different kind of arrowhead.
有时有人会想出一种很酷的不同类型的箭头。
They go back and forth with different hunting tools, but really nothing changes for thousands of years and then finally they start developing into these larger groups, which for the most part has to do with agriculture.
他们使用不同的狩猎工具来回移动，但数千年来实际上没有任何变化，最后他们开始发展成更大的群体，这在很大程度上与农业有关。
33:08 It used to be archeology that was just the end all, be all.
过去，考古学只是最终的结局。
Civilization starts with the invention of agriculture.
文明始于农业的发明。
And we can’t have sedentary communities until people learn how to farm.
在人们学会如何耕种之前，我们不可能拥有久坐的社区。
But that’s been discounted.
但这已经打折了。
Peru was a big part of that.
秘鲁是其中的一个重要组成部分。
That area of Caral, it’s connected to another city on the coast called Aspero.
卡拉尔的那个地区与海岸上的另一个城市阿斯佩罗相连。
Aspero starts about the same time, but they’re all about fishing.
Aspero 大约在同一时间开始，但都是关于钓鱼的。
They have no farming.
他们没有耕种。
And Caral, who’s upriver from them, is farming, but funny enough, they’re not really farming food.
位于他们上游的卡拉尔正在耕种，但有趣的是，他们并不是真正种植食物。
They’re farming cotton and they’re making nets and they’re trading the nets with the people on the coast for the fish.
他们种植棉花，制作渔网，并与海岸上的人们用渔网交换鱼。
So it’s not as simple as, it’s just agriculture anymore.
所以它不再那么简单了，它不再只是农业了。
But it is, I think, still rooted in, how can we feed more people than just our family?
但我认为，它仍然根深蒂固，我们如何才能养活更多的人，而不仅仅是我们的家人？
How can we together create a food abundance so we’re no longer scared about running out of food?
我们怎样才能共同创造丰富的食物，这样我们就不再害怕食物不足？
So is it possible, which is something you’ve argued, that civilization started in the Amazon, in the jungle versus the coast?
那么，正如您所争论的那样，文明有可能起源于亚马逊地区、丛林还是海岸吗？
I do think so.
我确实这么认为。
34:18 I think religion in South America began in the Amazon.
我认为南美洲的宗教起源于亚马逊。
I think there were people there, very old.
我想那里有人，而且很老。
Actually, the earliest pottery in all of the Americas, all these places that we have civilizations that grew up, you know where the oldest pottery is?
事实上，整个美洲最早的陶器，所有这些我们有文明成长的地方，你知道最古老的陶器在哪里吗？
The middle of the Amazon.
亚马逊中部。
So there’s interesting cultures developing in the Amazon.
因此，亚马逊地区正在发展一些有趣的文化。
34:40 So religion, you would say, preceded civilization?
那么你会说宗教先于文明吗？
In South America, Caral and Aspero that I was just talking about, it’s weird what a dearth of art and any evidence of religion we have.
在南美洲，我刚才谈到的卡拉尔和阿斯佩罗，我们缺乏艺术和任何宗教证据，这很奇怪。
34:47 We have those pyramids and things that we call temples, but we don’t really know what went on in there.
我们有那些金字塔和我们称之为寺庙的东西，但我们并不真正知道里面发生了什么。
And there’s no…
而且没有……
35:00 …
……
Things that we call temples, but we don’t really know what went on in there, and there’s no hints of religious iconography, ceremonies, nothing like that.
我们称之为寺庙，但我们并不真正知道里面发生了什么，也没有任何宗教肖像、仪式之类的迹象。
The first stuff that we get is right when that culture ends, about 1800 BCE.
我们得到的第一个信息是在这种文化结束时，大约公元前 1800 年。
This culture called Chavin starts up and their main temple is up in the Andes in this place of path of least resistance between the Amazon and the coast.
这种称为查文的文化开始兴起，他们的主要寺庙位于安第斯山脉，亚马逊河和海岸之间阻力最小的地方。
It’s about three days walk either way, from this place where this temple is.
从这座寺庙所在的地方，单程步行大约三天。
That’s where we start seeing the very first religious iconography and it’s all over the temples.
在那里我们开始看到第一个宗教图像，它遍布寺庙。
There are things that are definitely from the coast, but the iconography are all jaguars and snakes and crocodiles, and those don’t come from the coast.
有些东西肯定来自海岸，但图像都是美洲虎、蛇和鳄鱼，而这些并不是来自海岸。
All of those things are coming out of the Amazon.
所有这些东西都来自亚马逊。
Religion is a really powerful idea.
宗教是一个非常强大的想法。
35:59 Religions are one of the most powerful ideas.
宗教是最强大的思想之一。
There are the strongest myths that tie people together.
有最强烈的神话将人们联系在一起。
And to you, it’s possible that this powerful idea in South America started in the Amazon.
对你来说，南美这个强大的想法可能始于亚马逊。
I do.
我愿意。
36:16 I do think it did, and you’re right, ideas are more powerful than weapons, but archeology can’t see them at all.
我确实认为确实如此，你是对的，思想比武器更强大，但考古学根本看不到它们。
Sometimes we can see ideas manifesting in the things they create and lead to, but there’s an interpretation problem.
有时我们可以看到想法体现在它们创造和导致的事物中，但存在一个解释问题。
Are we right about what idea created this?
我们对创造这个的想法正确吗？
Those are things that archeology just can’t get at.
这些都是考古学无法得到的东西。
That’s one of the challenges of archeology and looking into ancient histories.
这是考古学和研究古代历史的挑战之一。
36:43 You’re trying to not just understand what they were doing in terms of architecture, but understand what was going on inside their mind.
你不仅要尝试了解他们在建筑方面所做的事情，还要了解他们内心在想什么。
That’s really what I’m in it for, trying to understand these people and it’s real detective work, and we know we’re dealing with a totally flawed record.
这就是我真正的目的，试图了解这些人，这是真正的侦探工作，我们知道我们正在处理一个完全有缺陷的记录。
36:55 We only have what could preserve the test of time.
我们只有能够经受住时间考验的东西。
If we look around this room here, if 2,000 years of weathering happened in this room, what would be left and what would we think happened here?
如果我们环顾这个房间，如果这个房间经历了2000年的风化，会留下什么，我们会认为这里发生了什么？
Right, right, but not in this room, but if you look at thousands of rooms like it, maybe you can start to piece things together about the different ideologies that ruled the world, the religion, the different ideas.
对，对，但不是在这个房间里，但如果你看看成千上万个类似的房间，也许你可以开始将统治世界的不同意识形态、宗教和不同思想拼凑起来。
37:21 Tell me about this fanged deity.
告诉我关于这个长牙神灵的事情。
One of your more controversial ideas is that you believe that the religions, there’s a thread that connects the different civilizations, the societies of the Andean region and the religion they practiced is more monotheistic than is currently believed in the mainstream.
你更有争议的想法之一是你相信宗教，有一条连接不同文明的线索，安第斯地区的社会和他们所信奉的宗教比目前主流所相信的更加一神论。
That is exactly what I think, and I think it’s all about this fanged deity who somewhere, thousands of years ago, crawled his way out of the Amazon up into the Andes and a religion took hold.
这正是我的想法，我认为这一切都与这位长着獠牙的神有关，他在数千年前的某个地方，从亚马逊地区爬行到安第斯山脉，并形成了一种宗教。
38:04 That could have been a combination of ideas from the coast and the Amazon.
这可能是海岸和亚马逊的想法的结合。
But he is the one creator deity, in my opinion, through all of these cultures.
但在我看来，他是所有这些文化中的独一创造者神。
And the people in the Amazon still talk about him there.
亚马逊地区的人们仍然在那里谈论他。
His name is Viho Masse in some groups, but they say that his emissaries on earth are the jaguars and that he is the creator deity.
在一些团体中他的名字是维霍·马塞，但他们说他在地球上的使者是美洲虎，他是造物主神。
Why is the current mainstream belief is that a lot of the religions are not monotheistic?
为什么现在的主流信仰是很多宗教都不是一神论？
Well, there are bona fide pantheons.
嗯，有真正的万神殿。
38:46 Greece had one, Egypt had one, Mesopotamia had one.
希腊有一个，埃及有一个，美索不达米亚有一个。
Lots of the early religions of the old world were pantheons, and I think that was part of the problem.
旧世界的许多早期宗教都是万神殿，我认为这是问题的一部分。
The earliest archeologists walked in there with a preconceived notion that ancient cultures have pantheons.
最早的考古学家带着先入为主的观念走进那里，认为古代文化有万神殿。
And so they went to the art looking for them, and they came up with things like the shark god and the moon goddess and the sun God, and all these things.
于是他们去寻找艺术，他们想出了鲨鱼神、月亮女神和太阳神之类的东西。
But when I look at the art, and I was trained by a person right here in Austin, Texas as an art historian, you follow certain diagnostic traits through art to see the development over time.
但当我审视艺术时，我在德克萨斯州奥斯汀接受了艺术史学家的培训，你可以通过艺术遵循某些诊断特征来了解随着时间的推移的发展。
And when I look at it and use that methodology, there’s a single face with goggle eyes and fangs and claws on his hands and feet and snakes coming off of his head and off of his belt.
当我观察并使用这种方法时，会看到一张脸，眼睛睁得大大的，手上和脚上长着獠牙和爪子，蛇从他的头上和腰带上爬出来。
He’s got really identifiable traits.
他有非常明显的特征。
39:50 He also likes to sever people’s heads off and carry them around, but he’s the fanged deity and he’s there.
他还喜欢砍下人们的头并带着他们到处走，但他是长牙之神，他就在那里。
He shows up in Chavín de Juantar, the capital of that Chavín culture, and he keeps showing up through every culture, even thousands of miles away throughout the next two millennium, right up to the Inca.
他出现在查文文化的首都查文德胡安塔尔，并且在接下来的两千年里，他不断出现在各种文化中，甚至是数千英里之外，一直到印加。
The Inca have a creator deity they call Viracocha, but Viracocha is the fanged deity.
印加人有一个创造神，他们称之为维拉科查，但维拉科查是长牙的神。
When we do see him, by the time you get to Inca, they do this almost Islamic thing where they say you can’t understand the face of Viracocha.
当我们看到他时，当你到达印加时，他们会做这种几乎是伊斯兰的事情，他们说你无法理解维拉科查的脸。
So when they do put him in a cosmogram, they’ll make him just a blob, like he’s just unknowable, but he’s at the very top.
因此，当他们确实把他放入宇宙图中时，他们会让他只是一个斑点，就像他不可知一样，但他位于最顶端。
I think we’re misunderstanding a lot of things that we used to say were deities as just supernatural beings.
我认为我们误解了很多我们过去所说的神灵只是超自然的存在。
40:52 If we flip the mirror on Christianity and take a look at it, which of course, Christianity is monotheistic, right?
如果我们把基督教的镜子翻过来看看，基督教当然是一神论的，对吗？
It would be heresy to say otherwise, but who are all these other characters?
否则的话就是异端邪说，但是这些其他角色是谁呢？
Who are all these angels and demons and Jesus Christ?
这些天使、魔鬼和耶稣基督是谁？
I don’t even know who the Holy Spirit is, but he’s some sort of supernatural being.
我什至不知道圣灵是谁，但他是某种超自然的存在。
But it’s that monotheistic system has lots of things that have supernatural powers that are not God.
但一神论体系中有很多具有超自然力量的东西不是上帝。
That’s where I think the crux of us misunderstanding ancient Andean art is.
我认为这就是我们误解古代安第斯艺术的症结所在。
So what is the process of analyzing art through time that try to figure out what the important entities are for that culture?
那么，通过时间来分析艺术并试图找出该文化的重要实体是什么的过程是什么呢？
41:29 Do you just see what shows up over and over and over and over?
你是否只是看到一遍又一遍地出现的东西？
Well, certainly without the advent of writing, depictions in art have all sorts of meanings encoded in them, and there are certain, what we call diagnostic elements.
好吧，当然，如果没有文字的出现，艺术中的描绘就蕴藏着各种各样的含义，并且有一些我们称之为诊断元素的东西。
41:41 We can pull apart the same sort of thing like in the Greek pantheon, you know by their dress and what they’re holding, what the different gods are.
我们可以像在希腊万神殿中那样拆开同样的东西，你可以通过他们的衣服和他们拿着的东西知道不同的神是什么。
You can tell Hades from Zeus by the different things they’re holding lightning bolts or tridents or whatever.
你可以通过哈迪斯和宙斯拿着闪电或三叉戟等不同的东西来区分他们。
So they all have these diagnostic elements to them.
所以他们都有这些诊断要素。
So that’s how art history goes about analyzing art over time.
这就是艺术史分析艺术随时间变化的方式。
Once we can put it in a chronological sequence, then we can say, “Okay, here’s a deity here in Chavín culture.” Now we move forward 500 years.
一旦我们能按时间顺序排列，我们就可以说：“好吧，这是查文文化中的一位神。”现在我们向前迈进了500年。
Now we’re in Moche and Nazca culture.
现在我们处于莫切和纳斯卡文化之中。
Where are the deities here?
这里的神仙在哪里？
And what I see is that same guy with not just one or two traits, but a whole package of them that shows up again and again and again for thousands of years in each one of these cultures.
我看到的是同一个人不仅具有一两个特征，而且具有一整套特征，数千年来在每种文化中一次又一次地出现。
42:57 He’s got circular eyes, he’s got a fanged mouth.
他有圆形的眼睛，有一张尖牙的嘴。
He’s got claws on his hands and feet.
他的手和脚上都有爪子。
He’s a humanoid, but he also has snakes coming off of his head like hair and snakes coming off of his belt.
他是一个人形生物，但他的头上也有像头发一样的蛇，还有从他腰带上掉下来的蛇。
And then not so much in Chavín, but as it goes forward, he starts carting around severed heads, human severed heads.
然后在查文就不那么重要了，但随着事情的发展，他开始推着砍下的头颅，人类的砍下的头颅。
So they’re like, in the old literature, the Moche will call him the decapitator deity, but then they have these other like, “Oh, here’s the crab deity and here’s the fox deity.” But if you look at them, the crab deity is just that guy’s face coming off of a crab, and the fox deity is that guy’s face coming off of a fox.
所以他们就像，在古老的文学中，莫切人会称他为斩首神，但他们还有其他类似的说法，“哦，这是螃蟹神，这是狐狸神。”但你看，蟹神就是那个人从螃蟹上脱下来的脸，狐神就是那个人从狐狸上脱下来的脸。
43:47 So I think on that particular instance, I explain it similar to what Zeus did.
所以我认为在这个特定的例子中，我的解释与宙斯的做法类似。
You know how Zeus was able to turn into whatever animal he wanted to get with the woman he wanted, and he showed up in all sorts of forms, but he was always Zeus.
你知道宙斯是如何变成任何他想要的动物和他想要的女人在一起的，他以各种形式出现，但他始终是宙斯。
I think that the fanged deity manifests himself through people and animals throughout the art and that there are missing stories of mythology that we don’t have anymore.
我认为，獠牙之神在整个艺术中通过人和动物来表现自己，并且我们已经不再有缺失的神话故事了。
And across hundreds of years, thousands of years from Chavín to Moja to Inca, as you’re saying.
正如你所说，从查文到莫哈再到印加，跨越了数百年、数千年。
Right.
正确的。
44:21 Wari has them too, Tiahuanaco, that famous place, Pumapunku, he’s all over there.
瓦里也有，蒂亚瓦纳科，那个著名的地方，普马蓬库，他都在那里。
I wonder how those ideas spread and morph of this fanged deity?
我想知道这些想法是如何传播和塑造这个长牙神灵的？
I think people walked and proselytized and places like Chavín, there’s a later one in Inca times called Pachacamac that are pilgrimage places where people come in to be healed if they’re sick, but also just to pay homage to the powers that be.
我认为人们步行和传教，像查文这样的地方，在印加时代有一个后来被称为帕查卡马克的朝圣地，人们生病时来这里寻求治愈，但也只是为了向当权者致敬。
44:35 So Chavín was a place where people from the Amazon and people from the coast were all coming together.
所以查文是一个来自亚马逊和沿海地区的人们聚集在一起的地方。
In fact, we saw it in the archeology there.
事实上，我们在那里的考古中看到了它。
There’s these interesting labyrinths under the pyramids with the fanged deity all over them that have…
金字塔下面有这些有趣的迷宫，迷宫里到处都是长着獠牙的神……
One labyrinth will have all pottery.
一个迷宫将拥有所有陶器。
The next labyrinth will have a bunch of animal bones.
下一个迷宫里会有一堆动物骨头。
The next one will have a bunch of things made out of stone.
下一个将有一堆用石头制成的东西。
So people are showing up and giving this tribute and they’re learning and then they’re going back to their communities.
因此，人们出现并表达敬意，他们正在学习，然后他们会回到他们的社区。
So I think it dispersed from certain pilgrimage spots and became just like pilgrimage spots do.
所以我认为它是从某些朝圣地分散出来的，就像朝圣地一样。
Somebody goes back and they build a temple to the fanged deity.
有人回去为长牙的神建造了一座寺庙。
Do we know much about the relationship they had with the fanged deity and their conception of the powers of the fanged deity?
我们对他们与獠牙神祇的关系以及他们对獠牙獠牙神力量的看法了解很多吗？
45:36 Were they afraid of the fanged deities and all-knowing God?
他们害怕长牙的神灵和全知的上帝吗？
Is it something that brings joy and harvest or is it something that you’re supposed to be afraid of and sacrifice animals and humans to keep at bay?
它是带来欢乐和收获的东西，还是你应该害怕并牺牲动物和人类来阻止它的东西？
I think he had two sides of the coin.
我认为他有硬币的两面。
46:05 A lot of the Hindu gods are…
许多印度教神都是……
One aspect is terrible, the other aspect is lovely.
一方面很糟糕，另一方面又很可爱。
I think he had that same sorts of qualities because we do see him as a fierce warrior taking people’s heads off, and he is a jaguar, which in and of itself implies a certain power and ferocity, but then there are other funny things about him.
我认为他也有同样的品质，因为我们确实认为他是一个凶猛的战士，可以砍掉人们的头，而且他是一只美洲虎，这本身就意味着一定的力量和凶猛，但他还有其他有趣的事情。
He is definitely involved in a lot of healing ceremonies and a lot of those healing ceremonies are involved with sex acts.
他肯定参与了很多治疗仪式，其中很多治疗仪式都涉及性行为。
When it comes to the Moche, there’s this whole group of sexual pottery where priests are having sex with women or men, and some of them show their faces transforming into that fanged deity, he is acting through them.
说到莫切，有一整组性陶器，其中牧师与女人或男人发生性关系，其中一些人的脸变成了那个长着尖牙的神，他正在通过他们行事。
46:54 But the thing that most cracks me up that shows his softer side is the fanged deity has a little puppy.
但最让我开心的是，这位獠牙神有一只小狗，这也显示了他温柔的一面。
He has a puppy that’s just dancing around his feet and jumping up on him in various scenes.
他有一只小狗在他的脚边跳舞，在不同的场景中跳到他身上。
They see him again and again.
他们一次又一次地见到他。
Sometimes he’s in these healing sex scenes.
有时他会出现在这些治愈性的性爱场景中。
In fact, I tracked that puppy from other contexts to these sex scenes where a priest was having sex with somebody in a house and a fanged deity, and there’s a puppy just scratching at the door like, “Hey, you forgot me.” And then finally, one day I found one with the puppy having sex with the woman instead of the fanged deity.
事实上，我从其他场景中追踪到那只小狗的性爱场景，其中一位牧师与一个房子里的人和一个长着尖牙的神发生性关系，还有一只小狗只是在门上抓挠，就像，“嘿，你忘了我。”最后，有一天我发现一只小狗与女人发生性关系，而不是与长牙的神灵发生性关系。
I was like, “Oh, he really is very involved in this.
我当时想，“哦，他真的非常参与其中。
What is this weird puppy?”
这只奇怪的小狗是什么？”
Okay.
好的。
So yeah, he likes to take heads off, but he also has a puppy he adores.
是的，他喜欢把头砍下来，但他也有一只他喜欢的小狗。
This awesomely makes sense now because I saw the opening of a paper you wrote 30 years ago on shamanism and Mocha civilization.
现在这非常有意义，因为我看到了您 30 年前写的一篇关于萨满教和摩卡文明的论文的开头。
47:44 It reads, “The Mocha are the major focus of this paper.
上面写着：“摩卡咖啡是本文的主要焦点。
Sex puppies and headhunting will be shown to be related to ancient Mocha shamanism.” So now I understand.
性爱小狗和猎头将被证明与古代摩卡萨满教有关。”所以现在我明白了。
I was like, “Well, the puppies.”
我当时想，“好吧，小狗们。”
Puppies, yeah, it’s true.
小狗们，是的，这是真的。
And the headhunting.
还有猎头。
48:09 That’s the decapitator.
这就是斩首者。
And I’ve added rock and roll to that list since actually.
事实上，我已经将摇滚乐添加到了这个列表中。
48:11 Rock and roll music is also a big part of it.
摇滚音乐也是其中的重要组成部分。
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
They call spirits down.
他们召唤灵魂。
48:20 There’s this whole spirit world.
这就是整个精神世界。
There’s the ancestors and the people that drink San Pedro cactus juice, they don’t talk about the fanged deity anymore.
有喝圣佩德罗仙人掌汁的祖先和人们，他们不再谈论长牙神。
I think Christianity in 500 years has somewhat put him in the back.
我认为五百年来的基督教多少把他放在了后面。
It was unpopular to have a pagan deity.
拥有异教神灵是不受欢迎的。
So they don’t talk about him much anymore though he’s still around.
因此，尽管他还活着，但他们不再谈论他了。
They’re around Trujillo.
他们在特鲁希略附近。
They call him Iopec.
他们称他为国际欧佩克。
But music, in the Amazon, they play flute.
但是音乐，在亚马逊，他们演奏长笛。
Sometimes a chorus of women sing and that’s supposed to bring the spirits down into the ceremony.
有时，一群妇女合唱，这应该可以给仪式带来气氛。
There’s a spirit that’s hurting the person that’s sick, and then the priest or the shaman or the corundero, whatever you want to call him, has his own posse of spirits that are going to help him figure out what’s going on.
有一种灵魂正在伤害病人，然后牧师、萨满或武士，无论你想怎么称呼他，都有自己的灵魂团体来帮助他弄清楚发生了什么。
49:15 So when the music starts, that’s bringing those spirits in and people don’t see them unless they’ve imbibed the San Pedro cactus juice, which is this hallucinogen, which is in the Amazon side, it was Ayahuasca.
所以当音乐开始时，那些灵魂就会被带进来，人们看不到它们，除非他们喝了圣佩德罗仙人掌汁，这是一种致幻剂，在亚马逊一侧，它是死藤水。
On the coast, it was San Pedro cactus, but that’s what allows you to actually see that other world.
在海岸上，有圣佩德罗仙人掌，但这才是让你真正看到另一个世界的原因。
Yeah.
是的。
49:41 I went to the Amazon recently and did Ayahuasca, a very high dose of it.
我最近去了亚马逊，做了死藤水，剂量非常高。
Bold move.
大胆的举动。
When in Rome.
在罗马的时候。
49:52 How far back does that go?
那要追溯到多远以前呢？
Oh, I think longer than anybody can remember, but it’s a natural plant that’s been there forever.
哦，我想的时间比任何人都记得的要长，但它是一种永远存在的天然植物。
49:56 I think that it’s thousands and thousands of years.
我认为已经有几千年了。
That’s another thing Chavín de Juantara was talking about where I think the things came, the religion came from the Amazon.
这是查文·德·胡塔拉（Chavín de Juantara）谈论的另一件事，我认为这些东西来自哪里，宗教来自亚马逊。
There’s this wall on the backside that faces the Amazon side.
背面有一面面向亚马逊一侧的墙。
So if you’re entering the city from the Amazon path, you see this wall first, and it’s a bunch of faces that some of them are humans.
所以如果你从亚马逊小道进入这座城市，你首先会看到这堵墙，里面有一堆面孔，其中一些是人类。
Some of them are total jaguar and some of them are transforming in-between.
其中一些是完全的美洲虎，而另一些则在两者之间转变。
But there’s a group of them that are midway through transformation and they show their nostrils leaking out this snot that’s coming down their face.
但有一群人正处于转变过程中，他们的鼻孔正从脸上流下鼻涕。
San Pedro doesn’t do that to you, but Ayahuasca does.
圣佩德罗不会对你这样做，但死藤水会这样做。
50:47 Ayahuasca traditionally, they’d take a blow gun and just shoot it up your nose or up your ass, but a lot of times up your nose and when it shoots up your nose, the first thing that happens is just this gush of snot comes out of you.
传统上，死藤水他们会拿一把吹枪，把它射到你的鼻子或屁股上，但很多时候，当它射到你的鼻子上时，首先发生的事情就是鼻涕从你身上喷出来。
And there are stone depictions of people uncontrollably snotting on the backside of this temple from 3,000 years ago.
这座寺庙的背面有 3000 年前人们无法控制地流鼻涕的石刻。
So that you think could have been a big component of the development of religion and shamanism?
所以你认为这可能是宗教和萨满教发展的一个重要组成部分？
I think that hallucinogens opened the mind then like they opened the mind now.
我认为致幻剂当时打开了思维，就像现在打开了思维一样。
Do you think that the stoned ape theory, do you think that actually could have been an actual catalyst for the formation of civilization?
您认为石猿理论实际上可能是文明形成的实际催化剂吗？
In the Americas, yes, I do, though hallucinogens are not part of every ancient tradition in the world.
在美洲，是的，我确实如此，尽管致幻剂并不是世界上所有古老传统的一部分。
51:36 In fact, strangely, the majority of plants that are actually psychotropic, not just mood altering, are from here in the Americas.
事实上，奇怪的是，大多数实际上具有精神作用而不仅仅是改变情绪的植物都来自美洲。
There are very few drugs that will make you hallucinate outside of the Americas.
在美洲以外，很少有药物会让你产生幻觉。
Of course, now they’re global and they can be grown all over the place.
当然，现在它们是全球性的，可以在任何地方种植。
But originally speaking, very, very few were outside of the Americas.
但最初来说，只有非常非常少的人来自美洲以外的地区。
So they were part of the experience here in a way that they just couldn’t be in other places.
因此，他们以一种在其他地方无法体验的方式成为这里体验的一部分。
I wonder to what degree they were just part of a ritual and the creative force behind art versus literally the method by which you come up with ideas that define as civilization.
我想知道它们在多大程度上只是一种仪式和艺术背后的创造力的一部分，而不是从字面上提出定义为文明的想法的方法。
52:17 It’s the degree to which they had a role in the formation of civilizations.
这是他们在文明形成中发挥作用的程度。
It’s fun to think about psychedelics being a critical role in formation of civilizations.
考虑致幻剂在文明形成中的关键作用是很有趣的。
I think in terms of South America, they probably really were.
我认为就南美而言，他们可能确实如此。
It’s possible.
这是可能的。
In North America where we’re in a more northern climb here, and there are less of them, not so much, at least in terms of psychedelics, things like tobacco was always a big part of it.
在北美，我们处于更北的攀登阶段，而且它们的数量较少，也没有那么多，至少就迷幻剂而言，烟草之类的东西一直是其中的重要组成部分。
52:50 There’s more than one way to reach a hallucinatory state.
达到幻觉状态的方法不止一种。
The hard way is starvation, sleep deprivation.
最艰难的方法就是挨饿、睡眠不足。
And for the Maya, for example, would go sleep deprivation, starvation, and then they’d cut themselves very badly.
例如，对于玛雅人来说，他们会缺乏睡眠、挨饿，然后他们就会严重割伤自己。
And that loss of blood, we believe triggered hallucinations and visions.
我们认为失血引发了幻觉和幻觉。
Nothing to do with drugs.
与毒品无关。
I would much prefer the drugs route.
我更喜欢药物途径。
It’s the result.
这就是结果。
53:31 The tools aren’t the thing that creates insight.
这些工具并不是创造洞察力的东西。
It’s the result.
这就是结果。
Hallucinogens are poisoning us.
致幻剂正在毒害我们。
53:42 They’re killing us.
他们正在杀了我们。
It’s a near death state and people of the Americas believed sleeping was entering that other world, death.
这是一种濒临死亡的状态，美洲人相信睡眠就是进入另一个世界，死亡。
You entered this other world and that when you took this mighty dose of poison, it was helping you enter that other world for a period of time.
你进入了另一个世界，当你服下这大剂量的毒药时，它会帮助你进入另一个世界一段时间。
Yeah, as Tom Waits said in that one song, “I like my town with a little drop of poison.” So maybe that poison is a good catalyst for invention.
是的，正如汤姆·威茨在一首歌中所说，“我喜欢我的小镇，里面有一点点毒药。”所以也许这种毒药是发明的良好催化剂。
54:04 So who were the early first mother cultures, mother civilizations in South America?
那么南美洲最早的母文化、母文明是谁呢？
If we look chronologically, is there a label we can put on the first peoples that emerged?
如果我们按时间顺序看，我们是否可以给最早出现的民族贴上一个标签？
That picture is evolving.
那幅图景正在演变。
54:33 Forever, it was just the Chavin people that we’ve been talking about.
永远，我们谈论的只是查文人。
The ones with all the first depictions of religious art were the mother culture, and they certainly did transmit a lot of stuff, but then all of a sudden, we find Kerala.
最早描绘宗教艺术的是母文化，他们确实传播了很多东西，但突然之间，我们找到了喀拉拉邦。
The next one that we’ve barely even begun looking at, but it’s probably older than Kerala, is Sachin culture.
我们刚刚开始研究的下一个文化是萨钦文化，它可能比喀拉拉邦更古老。
I was just poking around there last year and just from the bus on the highway, I could see, “That’s a pyramid out there.
去年我只是在那里闲逛，从高速公路上的公共汽车上，我就可以看到，“那是一座金字塔。
Oh, there’s another one.” And I know how old the stuff we have studied there is.
哦，还有一个。”我知道我们在那里研究的东西有多久了。
It’s again, 3000 BC.
时间又回到了公元前 3000 年。
We’re just barely beginning to understand them.
我们才刚刚开始了解它们。
Kerala frustrates me to no end, the lack of art there.
喀拉拉邦缺乏艺术，让我无限沮丧。
We’ve got stones and bones and not even ceramics to go on, and they didn’t have the courtesy to leave me a bunch of art I can interpret.
我们有石头和骨头，甚至没有陶瓷可以继续，他们没有礼貌地给我留下一堆我可以解释的艺术品。
So I don’t know what those people believed.
所以我不知道那些人相信什么。
Right.
正确的。
55:34 So one of the ways to understand what people believe is looking at the art, the stories told through the art, and then hopefully deciphering if they were doing any kind of writing.
因此，了解人们信仰的方法之一是观看艺术，通过艺术讲述的故事，然后希望破译他们是否在进行任何类型的写作。
That’s our most fruitful place to try to get at this elusive ideas.
这是我们尝试获得这种难以捉摸的想法最富有成效的地方。
And it sucks when they don’t have art.
当他们没有艺术时，那就很糟糕了。
55:50 If we just go back to the Amazon, you’ve mentioned that it’s possible that there’s a law civilization that existed in the Amazon, so it’s carried a lot of names.
如果我们回到亚马逊，你提到亚马逊可能存在一个法制文明，所以它有很多名字。
Lost City of Z or El Dorado.
失落的 Z 城或埃尔多拉多。
Do you think it’s possible it existed?
你认为它可能存在吗？
Well, City of Z and El Dorado are in pretty different places.
嗯，Z 城和埃尔多拉多是在完全不同的地方。
56:07 El Dorado, the ideas of where it is center around towards Columbia.
埃尔多拉多（El Dorado），其所在地的想法以哥伦比亚为中心。
Okay.
好的。
And the City of Z is named after a region of Brazil called the Xingu.
Z 城以巴西一个名为 Xingu 的地区命名。
56:18 And so those are an America worth of distance apart.
因此，这些距离相当于美国的距离。
People don’t really think about it on the map, but the entire United States would fit inside the Amazon.
人们并没有真正在地图上考虑它，但整个美国都适合亚马逊。
That’s how big that place is.
那地方有多大。
And these two are on either end, but both of them have evidence of civilizations.
两者分别位于两端，但都拥有文明的证据。
It’s lowland and it floods all the time.
这里是低地，常年洪水泛滥。
So what they did is they’d make these big mounds and then they’d make huge causeways between mounds so they could walk through their cities while they were seasonally inundated.
所以他们所做的就是建造这些大土堆，然后在土堆之间建造巨大的堤道，这样他们就可以在城市被季节性淹没的时候步行穿过他们的城市。
And a bunch of that stuff has been found in the Xingu area, like huge areas that would support tens of thousands of people.
在新古地区发现了很多这样的东西，就像可以容纳数万人的巨大区域。
57:10 Again, it’s not stone built and it’s been under the forest forever.
再说一次，它不是石头建造的，它永远在森林下面。
So it’s very torn up, but it’s there.
所以它很破烂，但它就在那里。
Brazil is big on cattle farming more than ever now, and a thing that I think is completed now is Brazil and Bolivia partnered together and built a highway all the way across and opened up a whole bunch more land, which has found more of these what we call like geometric earthworks.
巴西现在比以往任何时候都更重视养牛业，我认为现在已经完成的一件事是巴西和玻利维亚合作，修建了一条贯穿全境的高速公路，并开辟了更多的土地，发现了更多我们所说的几何土方工程。
So there’s more and more evidence of these civilizations.
因此，这些文明的证据越来越多。
It’s not, it could be there.
不是的，它可能在那里。
It’s there for sure.
它肯定就在那里。
By the way, the people who are trying to protect the rainforest really hate the highway.
顺便说一句，那些努力保护雨林的人们真的很讨厌高速公路。
57:50 One of the things I learned is if you build a road, loggers will come-
我学到的一件事是，如果你修一条路，伐木工就会来——
Yep.
是的。
And they will start cutting stuff down.
他们将开始削减东西。
58:01 Now, from an archeology perspective, if you cut down trees, you get to discover things.
现在，从考古学的角度来看，如果你砍伐树木，你就会发现一些东西。
But from a protective, very precious rainforest perspective, it’s obviously the opposite way.
但从保护性的、非常珍贵的雨林的角度来看，这显然是相反的。
But it is interesting, I’ve seen where loggers cut through the forest and when they leave, the forest heals itself very quickly.
但有趣的是，我见过伐木者砍伐森林的地方，当他们离开时，森林很快就会自我愈合。
So quickly.
这么快。
And you just think that across decades, you expand that to centuries and you could see how a civilization could be completely swallowed up by the rainforest.
你只是认为，经过几十年，你把它扩展到几个世纪，你就会看到一个文明如何被雨林完全吞没。
And it happened for sure in the Amazon.
这确实发生在亚马逊地区。
58:41 One of the ways that we’re trying to push the frontier of where people were in the Amazon, because yes, the trees and just the biomass have eaten so much evidence, but they’re finding more and more of these places that they call terra preta, which is black earth, and they’re huge swaths of it.
我们试图推动亚马逊地区人类生活边界的方法之一，因为是的，树木和生物量已经吃掉了很多证据，但他们正在发现越来越多的这些地方，他们称之为黑土，即黑土，而且它们是大片的黑土。
So I guess the anthropology term is anthropogenic landscapes.
所以我猜人类学术语是人类景观。
And what they’re saying is that that really dark earth couldn’t have just got that way through natural forest processes, that sometime in the distant past that forest wasn’t there and there was major farming and human activity to the point where they totally turned the soil black and it’s much more enriched.
他们所说的是，真正黑暗的地球不可能只是通过自然森林过程就达到了这种程度，在遥远的过去的某个时候，森林并不存在，并且有大量的农业和人类活动，以至于它们完全使土壤变黑，并且变得更加肥沃。
59:36 And when I took a trip into the Amazon, I went from Manaus, up the river, the Black River a couple of days, and went and met some different communities.
当我去亚马逊旅行时，我从马瑙斯出发，沿黑河逆流而上，几天，遇到了一些不同的社区。
And I asked them about this black earth, and they were like, “Yeah, that’s why we’re here.
我问他们关于这个黑土地的事，他们说：“是的，这就是我们在这里的原因。
Sometimes we move our village, but when we move, we look for the terra preta, and that’s where we’re going to put our village, because that’s a place that all of our gardens work.
有时我们会搬迁村庄，但当我们搬迁时，我们会寻找黑土，这就是我们要安置村庄的地方，因为那是我们所有花园工作的地方。
The other places, they don’t.”
其他地方则不然。”
One of the things you talked about, literally just you have to ask the right question.
您谈到的其中一件事，实际上只是您必须提出正确的问题。
1:00:04 And the stories, all the secrets are carried by the people and they’ll tell you.
这些故事，所有的秘密都是人们所承载的，他们会告诉你。
Yeah, there’s so many of them.
是的，有很多。
1:00:15 A thing that excites the world about archeology right now is Gobekli Tepe, and this 10,000, now Karahan Tepe is 11,000.
现在考古学界最兴奋的事情就是哥贝克力石阵，这10000个，现在的喀喇汗石阵是11000个。
The whole area is called the Tas Tepler.
整个地区被称为 Tas Tepler。
We only found it a couple of decades ago, but it was just an archeologist rowing through the area and ask a sheep herder, “Hey, you guys know where anything ancient is?” “Oh yeah, let me show you this.” And then all of a sudden we’ve got a lost civilization.
我们几十年前才发现它，但只是一位考古学家划船穿过该地区，问一个牧羊人，“嘿，你们知道古代的东西在哪里吗？” “哦，是的，让我给你看这个。”然后突然间我们就拥有了一个失落的文明。
And the shepherds always knew where it was.
牧羊人总是知道它在哪里。
Just nobody asked them.
只是没有人问他们。
So speaking of Gobekli Tepe, what do you think about the work of Graham Hancock, who also believes that there’s a lost civilization in the Amazon?
那么说到哥贝克力石阵，您对同样相信亚马逊地区存在失落文明的格雷厄姆·汉考克的作品有何看法？
Well, I’ve met Graham, and personally I like him.
嗯，我见过格雷厄姆，我个人很喜欢他。
1:00:59 He’s a nice guy, got a nice sense of humor, and I think he’s smart.
他是一个好人，很有幽默感，而且我认为他很聪明。
And I also think he is a very good researcher.
我也认为他是一位非常优秀的研究员。
He and I are working on the same set of facts.
他和我正在研究同一组事实。
The differences are interpretations.
差异在于解释。
I do not believe Graham’s idea that a single, now lost ancient civilization seeded the rest of them.
我不相信格雷厄姆的观点，即一个现已失落的古代文明为其余的文明播下了种子。
I just don’t see that on a number of levels, artifact wise, technology wise, art, historical analysis.
我只是在很多层面上都没有看到这一点，包括文物、技术、艺术、历史分析。
So I think his research is great.
所以我认为他的研究很棒。
I think that he’s very well-read, in fact, better read than a lot of my colleagues, but his conclusions I disagree with.
我认为他博览群书，事实上，比我的很多同事都更博览群书，但我不同意他的结论。
And he and I have talked about this and had a very civil and normal conversation about it and agree to disagree without spitting any venom at any point in the conversation.
他和我已经讨论过这个问题，并进行了非常文明和正常的对话，我们同意不同意，但在对话的任何时候都不会吐出任何恶毒。
That would be a fun argument to be a fly on the wall for.
这将是一个有趣的论点，让你成为墙上的苍蝇。
1:02:00 So he’s proposed that it’s possible that the Amazon jungle is a man-made garden.
因此他提出亚马逊丛林有可能是一个人造花园。
So it was planted there by advanced ancient civilization.
所以它是由先进的古代文明种植在那里的。
Is there any degree to which that could be possible?
这在多大程度上是可能的？
Frankly, I agree with him.
坦白说，我同意他的观点。
1:02:21 It’s just like what I was just talking about.
这就像我刚才所说的那样。
It’s the conclusion part that we differ from.
这是我们不同的结论部分。
Sure.
当然。
But the facts that he’s basing that on are that terra preta are the huge geometric earthworks, are the ever-increasing evidence of them.
但他所依据的事实是，黑土是巨大的几何土方工程，是它们不断增加的证据。
1:02:28 They are now from the bottom of Bolivia to Guyana.
他们现在从玻利维亚底部到圭亚那。
They’re everywhere.
他们无处不在。
Every time we open up the jungle, we find these big works.
每次我们打开丛林，我们都会发现这些大作品。
So yes, there was a vast civilization that was there.
所以是的，那里有一个巨大的文明。
How advanced they were is a question and also a perspective thing.
他们有多先进是一个问题，也是一个观点问题。
Graham really focuses in on what we don’t know and what could be.
格雷厄姆真正关注的是我们不知道的事情和可能发生的事情。
Just to educate me, what’s the key idea that he’s proposing that you disagree with?
只是为了教育我，他提出的你不同意的关键想法是什么？
1:03:10 Is it it was the level of advancement the civilization was, or how large and centralized it was?
是文明的进步程度，还是文明的规模和集中度？
My main point of disagreement is that his…
我的主要分歧点是他的……
1:03:20 And his ideas evolve like everybody’s.
他的想法和每个人的想法一样不断演变。
No scientist or researcher in anything has an idea at the beginning of their career and holds it till the day they die.
任何领域的科学家或研究人员都没有在职业生涯之初就拥有一个想法，并一直坚持到去世的那一天。
His ideas are evolving, but his ideas remain.
他的思想在不断发展，但他的思想依然存在。
A core of them are that there was a very advanced single ancient civilization that was utterly destroyed by climactic conditions, and the younger Dryas hypothesis is part of that.
其中的核心是，有一个非常先进的单一古代文明被气候条件彻底摧毁，而年轻的仙女木假说就是其中的一部分。
Most recently, he used to not say that.
最近，他不再这么说。
Now he’s into this meteor thing, but he believes that that civilization was destroyed, but that members of it escaped this cataclysm and then spread out all over the world to seed all of the world’s civilizations for the next revival.
现在他对流星的事情很着迷，但他相信那个文明被摧毁了，但它的成员逃脱了这场灾难，然后散布到世界各地，为世界上所有文明的下一次复兴播下种子。
1:04:19 There’s where I disagree with him.
这就是我不同意他的地方。
I think these were independent civilizations that grew up in their own ways, that they were not seeded by some more advanced civilization from the past, and that they all hold things in common because they have this common ancestry of…
我认为这些都是独立的文明，以自己的方式成长，它们不是过去更先进的文明的种子，它们都有共同点，因为它们有这个共同的祖先……
In his early books, he suggested it’s Atlantis.
在他早期的书中，他建议这是亚特兰蒂斯。
I don’t think he suggests that anymore, but he still hangs on to the single advanced, now completely lost civilization.
我认为他不再这么建议了，但他仍然坚持单一先进的、现在完全失落的文明。
And archeologists, all of our ideas are theories.
而考古学家，我们所有的想法都是理论。
Very few of them are facts, and we could have the story wrong, but one thing we’re real good at is finding stuff.
其中很少有事实，我们的故事也可能是错误的，但我们真正擅长的一件事就是发现东西。
We find fish scales, so I find it just too big a pill to swallow that there was a civilization that was that technologically advanced and that large that we can’t even find a potsherd from.
我们发现了鱼鳞，所以我觉得这是一个太大的药丸，难以吞咽，有一个技术如此先进、如此庞大的文明，我们甚至无法从中找到陶片。
Yeah, and of course, it is a compelling story that there’s a single civilization from which all of this came from, because the alternative is the idea that we came across the Bering Strait from Asia went all the way down to South America and got isolated and created all these marvelous, sophisticated civilizations and ideas, including religious ideas that look similar to other…
是的，当然，这是一个引人入胜的故事，所有这一切都来自同一个文明，因为另一种说法是，我们从亚洲跨越白令海峡一路南下到南美洲，被孤立并创造了所有这些奇妙、复杂的文明和思想，包括看起来与其他文明相似的宗教思想……
1:05:22 Everybody has a flood myth.
每个人都有一个关于洪水的神话。
Right.
正确的。
So there’s a lot of similarities, everybody building pyramids, but there could be a lot of other explanations.
所以有很多相似之处，每个人都建造金字塔，但可能还有很多其他解释。
1:05:58 And for even if it’s a simple compelling explanation, that has to be evidence for it, and what would that evidence look like?
即使这是一个简单且令人信服的解释，也必须有证据，而该证据会是什么样子？
Well, that’s the bottom line.
嗯，这就是底线。
That’s tough.
这很难。
Everything’s theories were…
一切的理论都是……
1:06:18 And as responsible scientists, we’re trying to disprove our theories.
作为负责任的科学家，我们正在努力反驳我们的理论。
We are not supposed to be trying to prove our theories.
我们不应该试图证明我们的理论。
That’s one more foot out of the science box that archeology often steps.
这比考古学经常涉足的科学框框又多了一步。
We’re supposed to be disproving what we think is happening, not proving it.
我们应该反驳我们认为正在发生的事情，而不是证明它。
You don’t want to lean into the mystery too much.
你不想过多地陷入这个谜团。
1:06:38 It’s such a weird discipline because you’re operating in…
这是一门很奇怪的学科，因为你在……中运作。
It’s really in a dark room.
确实是在一个黑暗的房间里。
You’re feeling around a dark room.
你感觉周围是一个黑暗的房间。
So it’s mostly mystery.
所以这主要是个谜。
I would say a lot of sciences operate in a mostly well-lit room.
我想说，很多科学研究都是在光线充足的房间里进行的。
It’s like a dark corner and you’re figuring out a way to light it.
这就像一个黑暗的角落，你正在想办法照亮它。
But yeah, in archeology, most of it is a mystery.
但是，是的，在考古学中，大部分都是一个谜。
Right?
正确的？
Yes, it’s job security.
是的，这是工作保障。
1:07:08 I like that part.
我喜欢那部分。
But I do also try to always remind myself that every paradigm shifting idea that humans have ever had began as heresy and lunacy.
但我也确实试图时刻提醒自己，人类曾经提出的每一个范式转变的想法都是从异端和疯狂开始的。
That guy was crazy up to the second.
那家伙直到第二秒都疯狂了。
He was brilliant.
他很聪明。
And so we got to keep our minds open to the things that sound outlandish, because one of them eventually is going to lead us to the big paradigm shift.
因此，我们必须对那些听起来很奇怪的事情保持开放的态度，因为其中之一最终将引导我们实现重大的范式转变。
And if we are busy burning books of ideas that we don’t like, that’s where we close our minds to the possibility of advancing things.
如果我们忙着烧毁那些我们不喜欢的想法的书，那就是我们对推进事物的可能性关闭了思想。
I really love that, and I really appreciate that you’re saying that.
我真的很喜欢这一点，我真的很感激你这么说。
1:07:48 One of the fascinating things about just the Amazon to me is that there’s still a large number of uncontacted tribes.
对我来说，亚马逊最吸引人的事情之一就是仍然有大量与世隔绝的部落。
To rewind back into ancient history, you can imagine all of these tribes that existed in the Amazon that were isolated, very distinct from each other.
回顾古代历史，你可以想象亚马逊地区存在的所有这些部落都是孤立的，彼此截然不同。
Can you speak to this, your understanding of these tribes and their history that are still here today?
您能谈谈您对这些至今仍然存在的部落及其历史的理解吗？
Well, a lot of them are these…
嗯，其中很多都是这些……
1:08:20 By uncontacted, we mean we don’t know anything about these guys.
所谓未联系，是指我们对这些人一无所知。
We know roughly where they are, but places like Ecuador have very responsible policies where no one’s allowed to go contact them.
我们大致知道他们在哪里，但像厄瓜多尔这样的地方有非常负责任的政策，不允许任何人联系他们。
So we have a dearth of information.
所以我们缺乏信息。
If they walk out of the jungle and talk to us, that’s one thing, but we don’t go out and there looking for them, but they do seem frozen in time, and I don’t think any of us have a good estimation of how long they’ve been like that.
如果他们走出丛林并与我们交谈，那是一回事，但我们不会出去寻找他们，但他们似乎被时间冻结了，我认为我们中没有人能很好地估计他们这样已经持续了多久。
But we were saying earlier that humans change based on pressures of their environment.
但我们之前说过，人类会根据环境的压力而改变。
Mother necessity is oftentimes how we invent things or why we change, it’s pressure.
母亲的必要性常常是我们如何发明事物或我们为何改变的原因，它是压力。
And one thing the Amazon is, once you figure out how not to die in it, it’s a paradise of food.
亚马逊的一件事是，一旦你弄清楚如何不死在里面，它就是一个食物的天堂。
Food’s fallen from the sky all the time there, and once you learn to adapt to that environment, you’ve got very little need.
那里的食物一直从天上掉下来，一旦你学会适应那种环境，你就不需要什么了。
There’s no pressure to make anything else.
没有压力去做其他事情。
Things are working.
事情正在运作。
So for the modern humans that come across these uncontacted tribes, one of the things they document and notice is the propensity of these tribes for violence.
因此，对于遇到这些与世隔绝的部落的现代人类来说，他们记录和注意到的事情之一就是这些部落的暴力倾向。
1:09:28 So they get very aggressive in attacking whoever they come across.
因此，他们会非常积极地攻击他们遇到的任何人。
And not just foreigners.
而且不仅仅是外国人。
1:09:42 They attack each other.
他们互相攻击。
The Yanomamo are famous for just having never ending feuds with each other.
亚诺马莫人因彼此之间永无休止的争斗而闻名。
What do you think is the philosophy behind that?
您认为这背后的哲学是什么？
I’m a relatively peaceful person, but I’ve got the monster in me like everybody does.
我是一个相对平静的人，但我像每个人一样内心有一个怪物。
1:10:01 I’ve got the monster in me, like everybody does.
就像每个人一样，我内心也有怪物。
And I think that these, it’s cultural norms that become institutionalized.
我认为这些是制度化的文化规范。
For the Yąnomamö, they really, part of the right of passage to be a man is to go kill or maim somebody from an outer village.
对于 Yąnomamö 人来说，他们作为一个男人的通行权的一部分实际上是去杀死或伤害来自外村的人。
And they go in there, they oftentimes, the way they don’t let inbreeding set in and ruin everybody, not that they think of it scientifically, but they typically go and steal women from far-off communities, and that starts a big fight.
他们经常去那里，他们不让近亲繁殖毁掉每个人，并不是说他们以科学的方式思考这一点，但他们通常会从遥远的社区偷走妇女，这就引发了一场大战。
1:10:40 Another thing that starts fights, that when nobody even fought, is illness.
另一件引发争吵的事情是疾病，而当时甚至没有人打架。
Illness in the Amazon and all of the ancient Americas wasn’t seen as a biological thing, it was a spiritual thing.
亚马逊地区和整个古代美洲的疾病并不被视为生物问题，而是精神问题。
So if somebody in your village gets sick, the question is asked, “Well, what spirit is menacing him and who called it out on him?” And then, the rumor starts, “Well, I bet you it was Joe over there in that other community.
因此，如果你村里有人生病了，就会问这样的问题：“到底是什么鬼魂在威胁他，是谁向他发出召唤的？”然后，谣言开始了：“好吧，我敢打赌，那是另一个社区的乔。
He’s still pissed off for that time when we stole his daughter, and we ought to go over there and kill Joe, and then he’ll get better.” And so this round of never-ending violence, like Hatfields & McCoys had that thing, and the people of New Guinea also do that.
当我们偷走他的女儿时，他还在生气，我们应该去那里杀了乔，然后他就会好起来。”所以这一轮永无休止的暴力，就像哈特菲尔德和麦科斯那样，新几内亚人民也这样做。
So there are certain areas, mostly wooded areas, now that I think about it, where people just hide out and they attack each other as a cultural institution.
所以现在我想起来，在某些地区，主要是树木繁茂的地区，人们只是躲起来，他们作为一个文化机构互相攻击。
It’s such a tricky thing to do, to study an uncontacted tribe, without obviously contacting them, to figure out their language, their philosophy of mind, how they communicate, the hierarchy they operate under.
这是一件非常棘手的事情，要研究一个与世隔绝的部落，在没有明显接触他们的情况下，弄清楚他们的语言、他们的心灵哲学、他们如何沟通、他们运作的等级制度。
And yeah, there was a fascinating story in Peru, I guess it was probably like eight years ago or something.
是的，秘鲁有一个有趣的故事，我想这可能是八年前之类的。
1:11:55 But there was a ranger from one of the biology stations who, just in the by and by of protecting his area, met one of these uncontacted tribes and befriended someone.
但有一位来自生物站的护林员，在保护他的地区的过程中，遇到了这些与世隔绝的部落之一，并与某人成为了朋友。
Not the whole tribe, but he made some friends who would meet him in the woods, not in their community.
不是整个部落，但他结识了一些朋友，他们会在树林里而不是在他们的社区里见到他。
And he started to learn their language over a couple years.
他开始用几年的时间学习他们的语言。
And so he was this kind of important guy who actually could be the first translator to talk to these people.
因此，他是一位重要的人物，实际上可以成为第一个与这些人交谈的翻译。
And one day, a couple of them just came out of the woods, and just plugged him with arrows, and just killed him, and then they went back in the woods.
有一天，他们中的几个人刚从树林里出来，用箭射中他，然后杀了他，然后他们又回到了树林里。
Like, “That’s the one guy who understands what we’re saying, we should kill him and move our village.”
就像，“这个人明白我们在说什么，我们应该杀了他并搬走我们的村庄。”
So those folks really lean into the, as you said, the monster versus the puppy.
所以，正如你所说，这些人确实倾向于怪物与小狗的斗争。
You know, everybody’s got it, I think.
你知道，我想每个人都明白。
1:12:48 I think we need to listen to our better angels, because if we don’t, we, as a human species, can easily devolve into just using violence against others to get what we want.
我认为我们需要倾听我们更好的天使的声音，因为如果我们不这样做，作为人类，我们很容易就会陷入对他人使用暴力来获得我们想要的东西的境地。
It’s a daily choice we make not to be savages.
我们每天都会选择不做野蛮人。
Which is a fascinating thing to remember.
这是一件令人着迷的事情。
1:13:12 We’re kind of thinking civilized society, we’ve moved past all that, but it can be summoned, like in 1984, the two minutes of hate.
我们正在思考文明社会，我们已经超越了这一切，但它可以被召唤，就像 1984 年一样，两分钟的仇恨。
With the right words, that primal thing can be summoned, and directed, and lead to a lot of destruction.
用正确的话语，可以召唤和引导那个原始的东西，并导致大量的破坏。
And our sports are really based on taking those kinds of urges and channeling them positive, where somebody’s not dead at the end of it.
我们的运动实际上是建立在接受这些冲动并将其引导为积极的基础上的，这样到最后有人就不会死。
Yep.
是的。
1:13:48 So at which point did what we now call the Maya Civilization arise?
那么我们现在所说的玛雅文明是在什么时候出现的呢？
That’s another complicated one, another group living mostly in a jungle that we have barely begun to explore.
这是另一个复杂的问题，另一个群体主要生活在我们刚刚开始探索的丛林中。
1:14:01 You know, the truth is a lot of the questions in the Amazon and what we’re talking about now is the Patan and the mountains there.
你知道，事实是亚马逊地区有很多问题，我们现在谈论的是帕坦和那里的山脉。
Those aren’t places archeologists want to live, they’re horrible.
这些不是考古学家想要居住的地方，它们太可怕了。
I mean, I’ve been there.
我的意思是，我去过那里。
I don’t want to live in a tent and eat rations.
我不想住在帐篷里吃口粮。
I want to live in a nice town.
我想住在一个漂亮的小镇。
So a lot of the places where the answers are, we still really haven’t gotten there, because it takes a special person to be educated enough to know what they’re looking at, and tough enough to want to be there.
因此，在很多有答案的地方，我们仍然没有真正到达那里，因为需要一个特殊的人受过足够的教育才能知道他们在看什么，并且足够坚强才能到达那里。
I’ve done my tour of duty, I’m now in a nice little podcast studio.
我已经完成了我的职责，现在我在一个不错的小播客工作室里。
But seriously, the Maya, the first hint that we see people who are culturally Maya, very close to where the time period for that Chavin culture, is about 1800 BCE.
但说真的，玛雅人是我们看到的玛雅人文化的第一个暗示，非常接近查文文化的时期，大约是公元前 1800 年。
1:14:55 There’s a culture that’s some called the Mokaya, not Maya, but they’re on the Pacific coast, where Guatemala and Mexico connect.
有一种文化被称为莫卡亚人，而不是玛雅人，但他们位于太平洋沿岸，危地马拉和墨西哥的交界处。
It’s called the Soconusco.
它被称为索科努斯科河。
And those are the first people that are really going to be culturally Maya, and they’re interacting with the culture that has traditionally been seen as Mexico’s mother culture, which is the Olmec.
这些人是第一批真正意义上的玛雅人，他们正在与传统上被视为墨西哥母文化的奥尔梅克文化进行互动。
They’re kind of the same thing as we were talking about in South America, where the Maya, the original Maya, there’s not a whole lot to indicate that they have a religion.
他们与我们在南美谈论的事情有点像，那里的玛雅人，原始的玛雅人，没有太多迹象表明他们有宗教信仰。
But the Olmec have this religion they develop, and they start exporting it.
但奥尔梅克人有他们发展的这种宗教，并且他们开始输出它。
And you see the Maya become more and more involved in the religion that’s being created by the Olmec, who are to the north of them, in the swamps of what we call the Isthmus of Tehuantepec.
你会看到玛雅人越来越多地参与由奥尔梅克人创建的宗教，奥尔梅克人位于玛雅人的北部，在我们所说的特万特佩克地峡的沼泽地里。
I have a lot of questions to ask here about just natural stupid confusion I have.
我有很多问题要问，关于我天生愚蠢的困惑。
1:15:49 So first, did the Maya or the Olmec come first, and are they distinct groups?
那么首先，玛雅人还是奥尔梅克人先出现，他们是不同的群体吗？
How do you maintain a distinct civilization when you’re so close together?
当你们距离如此之近时，如何保持独特的文明？
I just finished filming a whole thing on the Olmecs and their interaction with the Maya for The Great Courses.
我刚刚完成了关于奥尔梅克人和他们与玛雅人的互动的完整拍摄。
1:16:10 I’m thrilled for it to come out next spring.
我很高兴它能在明年春天问世。
I think they co-evolved.
我认为它们是共同进化的。
Archeology, in this regard, is the worst enemy of this.
在这方面，考古学是最大的敌人。
So we put these names on cultures, we talk about how they evolve from one to another, we draw these lines where there aren’t any.
因此，我们将这些名称命名为文化，我们讨论它们如何从一种文化演变为另一种文化，我们在没有任何界限的地方画出这些界限。
We make these time periods that a culture magically transforms into somebody with another name, where I’m pretty sure they didn’t care about any of those names.
我们创造了这些时间段，一种文化神奇地转变为具有另一个名字的人，我很确定他们不关心这些名字中的任何一个。
But the Maya and the Olmec are two parts of a larger interaction sphere that’s happening in Mesoamerica, a very dynamic time.
但玛雅人和奥尔梅克人是中美洲发生的一个更大的相互作用领域的两个部分，这是一个非常活跃的时代。
1:16:53 The Olmec are really bringing the religion part, but the other areas are bringing technology, ceramic technology, making hematite mirrors, making tools out of obsidian and other stone types.
奥尔梅克人确实带来了宗教部分，但其他领域带来了技术、陶瓷技术、制造赤铁矿镜子、用黑曜石和其他石头类型制造工具。
So you’ve got the Olmec in the middle, where Mexico gets skinny, and it gets swampy down there.
所以奥尔梅克河位于中间，墨西哥在那里变得瘦弱，而且那里变得沼泽。
That’s called the Isthmus of Tehuantepec.
这就是特万特佩克地峡。
That’s where the Olmec are.
那是奥尔梅克人的所在地。
Then, you’ve got the Maya to the east of them.
然后，玛雅人就在他们的东边。
Then, you have the Valley of Oaxaca, where the people called the Zapotecs, they’re rising up.
然后是瓦哈卡山谷，那里的人们被称为萨波特克人，他们正在崛起。
And then, you have the Valley of Mexico, which will eventually become the Aztecs, but not for millennia.
然后是墨西哥谷，它最终将成为阿兹特克人，但不会持续数千年。
All those areas are interacting with each other.
所有这些领域都在相互作用。
Can we just also draw some more lines?
我们可以再画一些线吗？
Yeah, sure.
是的，当然。
So what is Mesoamerica and what is South America?
那么什么是中美洲，什么是南美洲？
1:17:45 And what you just said, the Olmecs and the Maya, can we just linger on the geography that we’re talking about here in the…
你刚才说的，奥尔梅克人和玛雅人，我们能不能继续停留在我们正在谈论的地理上……
What is this, like 1000 BC?
这是什么，比如公元前1000年？
Yeah, the time period we’re talking about, where the Olmec are there, 1000 BC is a great midpoint of it.
是的，我们谈论的奥尔梅克人所在的时期，公元前 1000 年是一个很好的中点。
1:18:00 I’d say it starts about 1800 BCE, and by 500 BCE, the Olmec are gone, and a whole new wave of civilization and population increase happened.
我想说它始于公元前 1800 年左右，到公元前 500 年，奥尔梅克人消失了，出现了全新的文明浪潮和人口增长。
In terms of Mesoamerica, looking at your map here, I’d say about halfway through the Chihuahua Desert, up there in the top left, that’s about the boundary of Mesoamerica.
就中美洲而言，看看你这里的地图，我想说的是奇瓦瓦沙漠的一半，左上角，那是中美洲的边界。
There’s this big desert where almost nobody lives, and once you get north enough, you get into the ancestral Pueblo people of what’s now America, the Four Corners area.
这片大沙漠几乎无人居住，一旦你到达足够北的地方，你就会遇到现在美国四角地区的普韦布洛人的祖先。
They’re not Mesoamerican, they have different lives.
他们不是中美洲人，他们有不同的生活。
Where does modern Mexico end?
现代墨西哥的终结在哪里？
Modern Mexico ends, right, you see the name Maya there with the white line around it?
现代墨西哥结束了，对吧，你看到玛雅这个名字周围有白线了吗？
Yeah.
是的。
That’s Guatemala, so Guatemala cuts off most of Mexico from Central America.
那是危地马拉，所以危地马拉切断了墨西哥大部分地区与中美洲的联系。
Got it.
知道了。
But Mesoamerica only goes about halfway through Honduras, and then it’s really kind of a no man’s land.
但中美洲只经过洪都拉斯的一半左右，那就真的是无人区了。
1:19:03 Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, they really, they’re neither.
尼加拉瓜、哥斯达黎加、巴拿马，他们真的，他们都不是。
They’re not Mesoamerica, they’re not South America.
他们不是中美洲，也不是南美洲。
They’re more South America, because they’ve got some gold there.
他们更接近南美洲，因为那里有一些黄金。
But then, basically, you get on the other side of Panama, and you’re fully in South America, with two distinct groups, too.
但基本上，当你到达巴拿马的另一边时，你就完全身处南美洲了，也有两个不同的群体。
You’ve got the guys that are on the Andes, on the west coast, and then you have the Amazon.
你有安第斯山脉、西海岸的人，还有亚马逊。
So the Andes and the Amazon are very distinct.
所以安第斯山脉和亚马逊河流域非常不同。
Yep.
是的。
So when you refer to the Andean region, is that referring to the Andes and the Amazon, or just the Andes?
那么，当您提到安第斯地区时，是指安第斯山脉和亚马逊河流域，还是仅指安第斯山脉？
Just the Andes and the coast to the Pacific there.
只有安第斯山脉和太平洋海岸。
1:19:49 That’s Andean civilization.
这就是安第斯文明。
So did Maya make it to the Andes, the Andean region?
那么玛雅人是否到达了安第斯山脉、安第斯地区呢？
Not that archeology can prove, but it’s almost certain that they interacted with each other.
虽然考古学无法证明这一点，但几乎可以肯定它们之间存在相互作用。
1:20:02 Number one, it’s just, it’s biased to think that these people couldn’t travel as widely as people on the other side of the planet did, but there’s all sorts of hints like that first ceramics I was talking about, that the Maya made, they show up strangely sophisticated technologically already.
第一，认为这些人不能像地球另一边的人那样广泛旅行是有偏见的，但有各种各样的暗示，比如我所说的玛雅人制造的第一个陶瓷，它们已经在技术上表现出了奇怪的复杂性。
And down in Ecuador, they had them for 1,000 years before.
而在厄瓜多尔，他们早在 1000 年前就已经拥有它们了。
So a lot of people, myself included, think that the idea of ceramics actually came from South America to the Maya.
所以很多人，包括我自己，都认为陶瓷的想法实际上是从南美洲传到玛雅人的。
Did the Maya get seeded by the second wave across the Bering Strait, or did that initial wave of people that came and populated South America, were they the ancestors of the Maya?
玛雅人是在穿越白令海峡的第二波浪潮中播种的，还是第一波来到南美洲并居住在南美洲的人是玛雅人的祖先？
1:20:42 How did the migration happen here?
这里的迁移是如何发生的？
Do we understand that?
我们明白吗？
We’re still piecing it together.
我们仍在拼凑它。
1:21:03 You know, I’d be lying if I told you I had the answers.
你知道，如果我告诉你我有答案，那我就是在撒谎。
But we do have evidence of Maya stature people.
但我们确实有玛雅人的证据。
They were small people.
他们都是小人物。
Generally speaking, people that grow up in the forest are smaller and people that grow up in the open plains are taller, probably about just generations of people that hit their head on a branch or not.
一般来说，在森林里长大的人个子比较小，在开阔平原长大的人个子比较高，大概就是头撞到树枝上或没撞到树枝上的几代人。
You’re joking, but there could be something to that.
你是在开玩笑，但这可能是有原因的。
I think there’s some truth to it.
我认为这有一定道理。
1:21:29 I mean, the Pygmies are small and the people on the plains in Africa are big.
我的意思是，俾格米人很小，而非洲平原上的人很大。
The North American Indians are tall and the Maya are small.
北美印第安人身材高大，玛雅人身材矮小。
There is definitely a pattern of smaller people in the forests.
森林里肯定有一种身材矮小的人的模式。
But anyway, there’s a cave in the Yucatan called Loltun Cave that has hand prints in the cave.
但无论如何，尤卡坦半岛有一个叫洛尔通洞的洞穴，洞里有手印。
It’s somebody who put their hand on the cave and spit charcoal around their hand, like a negative print.
有人将手放在洞穴上，然后将木炭吐在手上，就像底片一样。
We can date that charcoal, and it comes from 10,000 years ago, and the hands are all small.
我们可以确定那块木炭的年代，它来自一万年前，而且指针都很小。
It’s typical Old Mexico.
这是典型的老墨西哥。
I walked right up to these things and could put my hand…
我径直走到这些东西面前，可以把手放在…
I didn’t mess with them, but I put my hand next to these hands, and they’re all smaller than my Northern European hand, and so either it was a bunch of kids who were in this cave 10,000 years ago, or it was people of Maya stature who did it.
我没有惹它们，但我把我的手放在这些手旁边，它们都比我的北欧手小，所以要么是一万年前在这个洞穴里的一群孩子，要么是玛雅人干的。
It’s so cool that you can date the charcoal, and it’s so cool that 10,000 years ago there are people leaving [inaudible 01:22:37]-
这太酷了，你可以和木炭约会，而且一万年前就有人离开了，这太酷了 [听不清 01:22:37]-
And actually, we have one that’s I think 2,000 years older now, just a couple years ago, again in Yucatan, in a cave, they found a woman they named Naia now, and she’s like 12,000 years old.
事实上，我们有一个，我认为现在已经有 2000 岁了，就在几年前，同样是在尤卡坦半岛的一个山洞里，他们发现了一个她现在命名为 Naia 的女人，她大约有 12000 岁了。
So the best guess maybe that you have is it goes across the Bering Strait to South America, possibly the Amazon, develop a lot of cool ideas in the Amazon, and started drifting back up into Mesoamerica?
所以你最好的猜测是它穿过白令海峡到达南美洲，可能是亚马逊，在亚马逊产生了很多很酷的想法，然后开始漂回到中美洲？
Was kind of a co-evolution, the technology of ceramics I think got there through an interaction with-
这是一种共同进化，我认为陶瓷技术是通过与-的相互作用而实现的
See, the interesting thing is that the Maya didn’t really have religion, didn’t have as a vibrant religious set of ideas, and they borrowed it from the Olmec.
你看，有趣的是，玛雅人并没有真正的宗教，没有一套充满活力的宗教思想，他们是从奥尔梅克人那里借来的。
I’ve been doing a deep dive on this for this Olmec course that I just did, and it really does seem like these other cultures that have jade, and hematite, and obsidian, the Olmec had none of that stuff.
我刚刚在奥尔梅克课程中对此进行了深入研究，看起来确实像其他有玉石、赤铁矿和黑曜石的文化一样，奥尔梅克却没有这些东西。
1:23:25 They were living in a swamp, and building things out of dirt, but they were importing those materials from those areas, carving them into all sorts of religious iconography, and then exporting them back to them.
他们生活在沼泽中，用泥土建造东西，但他们从这些地区进口这些材料，将它们雕刻成各种宗教图像，然后将它们出口回原处。
And still, the fanged deity show up [inaudible 01:23:58]-
尽管如此，獠牙神还是出现了 [听不清 01:23:58]-
No, the fanged deity is nowhere in Central America and Mesoamerica, that’s why…
不，中美洲和中美洲没有獠牙之神，这就是为什么……
1:23:57 There’s jaguars, there’s jaguar iconography, but it’s not the same thing.
有美洲虎，有美洲虎的肖像，但它们不是同一件事。
This whole jaguar transformer deity does not exist there.
整个捷豹变形金刚神在那里并不存在。
They do have a pantheon.
他们确实有一个万神殿。
So the Maya, the Olmecs are the interesting peoples of the regions.
所以玛雅人、奥尔梅克人是该地区有趣的民族。
1:24:15 I’d love to ask questions about who were they?
我很想问他们是谁？
So one question I’m curious about, what was their sense when they looked up at the stars?
所以我很好奇一个问题，当他们仰望星空时，他们的感觉是什么？
What was their conception of the cosmos?
他们的宇宙观是什么？
That’s a question I’ve spent my entire career trying to answer.
这是我整个职业生涯都在试图回答的问题。
1:24:33 I think that they saw it as proof of the cyclical nature of life, and certainly, they saw, like every ancient group did, like, “Are those the gods?
我认为他们将其视为生命周期性的证据，当然，他们像每个古代群体一样看到，“那些是神吗？
Why are those things far away?” But I think that the Maya especially looked at it with a much more mathematical mind than most did.
为什么那些东西离得那么远？”但我认为玛雅人尤其以比大多数人更多的数学头脑来看待它。
And so they watched these things move every night, and if you do that even today, you notice that all the stars move in tandem.
所以他们每天晚上都会观察这些东西的移动，如果你今天也这么做，你会发现所有的星星都是一前一后移动的。
They’re just this blanket, they’re like this curtain behind me.
它们只是这条毯子，就像我身后的窗帘。
They’re the stage upon which some very important players are dancing, and that’s the Moon, the Sun and the planets.
它们是一些非常重要的参与者跳舞的舞台，那就是月亮、太阳和行星。
1:25:24 There’s five planets we can see visibly.
我们可以看到五颗行星。
So they started watching, like, “Why are just those seven moving differently than the rest?” And those are the things that they keyed on mathematically.
所以他们开始观察，比如“为什么只有那七个人的动作与其他人不同？”这些就是他们在数学上关注的事情。
The Sun, of course, was also involved in the agricultural cycle, so that was important in and of itself.
当然，太阳也参与了农业循环，因此这本身就很重要。
But the planets, we can see them coming up with ideas, definitely doing the math, and seeing that there is a repeated cycle, and then coming up with mythology around them, like Venus for them was associated with war, and they had very ritualized times to go to war that had something to do with Venus.
但是对于行星，我们可以看到他们提出想法，肯定会进行数学计算，并看到存在重复的循环，然后提出围绕它们的神话，就像金星对它们来说与战争有关，并且它们有非常仪式化的时间去进行与金星有关的战争。
1:26:07 Sometimes, in the classic period Maya, it was the first appearance of Venus as the Morning Star.
有时，在经典的玛雅时期，金星第一次作为晨星出现。
That was a good time to go to battle with your neighbors.
那是与邻居战斗的好时机。
And when it became the post-classic, with Chichén Itzá being the capital of the Yucatan, then it looks like, if you watch Venus day after day, it goes slowly up every day, and then when it hits its highest point as Morning Star in the morning, it goes down to the Earth like three times as fast.
当它成为后经典时，奇琴伊察是尤卡坦半岛的首府，那么看起来，如果你日复一日地观察金星，它每天都会慢慢上升，然后当它在早上达到晨星的最高点时，它会以三倍的速度下降到地球。
All of a sudden, it just shoots down and hits the Earth.
突然间，它就被击落并击中了地球。
And so the people of post-classic Maya civilization saw that as the gods shooting a spear into the Earth, and that was a good time to attack your neighbors.
因此，后经典玛雅文明的人们认为，当众神向地球射出长矛时，这是攻击邻居的好时机。
That was like war time, when the spear is going to hit the earth.
那就像战争时期，长矛即将击中大地。
All right, so this is fascinating.
好吧，这很有趣。
1:26:58 They just had at the foundation, a sense that life, existence at the various timescales is cyclical.
他们只是从根本上感觉到生命、不同时间尺度的存在是循环的。
Yeah.
是的。
That’s a starting point, and then you just look out there, and if you’re extremely precise, which is fascinating, how precise they were, you can just measure the cycles.
这是一个起点，然后你只要看看那里，如果你非常精确，这是令人着迷的，它们有多精确，你就可以测量周期。
Yeah, and they did it really well.
是的，他们做得非常好。
1:27:21 Now, of course, they are the only ones to develop a fully-elaborated writing system in all of the Americas.
当然，现在他们是整个美洲唯一开发出完善的书写系统的人。
The South America had the quipu, but it’s so different than our writing.
南美洲有 quipu，但它与我们的文字有很大不同。
We’re still trying to figure out what the heck it is.
我们仍在试图弄清楚它到底是什么。
We know there’s math there, too.
我们知道那里也有数学。
But they had the ability to take a lifetime worth of measurements and hand it to the next generation, who would then do it more and do it more.
但他们有能力进行一生的测量，并将其交给下一代，然后下一代会做得越来越多。
1:27:48 That’s how they figured out kind of the Holy Grail of ancient astronomy.
这就是他们如何找到古代天文学的圣杯的。
How good were they was whether they could see the procession of the equinoxes, the fact that we’re just barely wobbling, and there’s a 26,000-year period where the stars as that backdrop will spin all the way around and come back.
他们能看到春分的行进真是太棒了，事实上我们只是勉强摇晃，而且在 26,000 年的时间里，作为背景的星星会一路旋转然后回来。
It’s 26,000 years.
已经有26,000年了。
But the Maya we’re able to figure out, “Wait, it’s moving one degree every 72 years,” and did a calculation based on where it should be in the ancient past, and they were using constellations.
但我们能够弄清楚玛雅人，“等等，它每 72 年移动一度”，并根据它在古代的位置进行计算，他们使用星座。
They’re showing us they know by saying like, “This planet’s in this constellation right now, and 33,000 years ago, it would be in this constellation.”
他们通过这样的话向我们表明他们知道：“这个行星现在在这个星座中，而 33,000 年前，它也会在这个星座中。”
It’s just fascinating that they were able to figure this out.
他们能够解决这个问题真是令人着迷。
1:28:39 I would love to sort understand the details of the scientific community, if you can call it that.
我很想了解科学界的细节，如果你可以这样称呼它的话。
I think we absolutely could, and that’s actually one of the things that I’m hoping to move the needle on in my generation, with my career, is to give these cultures the respect they deserve, as standing toe to toe with the rest of our ancient civilizations we respect.
我认为我们绝对可以，这实际上是我希望在我的职业生涯中推动我这一代人前进的事情之一，就是给予这些文化应有的尊重，就像我们尊重的其他古代文明一样。
1:28:50 There are things that should be called science that are not being called science at the moment.
有些东西应该被称为科学，但目前还没有被称为科学。
Their math is incredible, their hydraulic engineering is incredible, their chemistry is incredible, and so I hope to talk about these things differently, as a way to get people to recognize the achievements in a different way.
他们的数学令人难以置信，他们的水利工程令人难以置信，他们的化学令人难以置信，所以我希望以不同的方式谈论这些事情，以此让人们以不同的方式认识到成就。
Yeah, I mean, unquestionably incredible scientific work in the astronomy sense, especially here.
是的，我的意思是，在天文学意义上无疑是令人难以置信的科学工作，尤其是在这里。
1:29:33 Can you speak to all the sophisticated aspects of the Mayan calendar that they’ve developed?
您能谈谈他们开发的玛雅历法的所有复杂方面吗？
Don’t know, you got another five hours?
不知道，你还有五个小时吗？
Let’s go.
我们走吧。
No, I’m kidding.
不，我在开玩笑。
I should say that you also gave me the 2024 Mayan calendar.
我应该说你还给了我2024年的玛雅历。
Yeah, I do this just to show the world that calendar system is evergreen.
是的，我这样做只是为了向世界展示日历系统是常青的。
1:29:58 It can go into the future or the past for billions of years in the system they made, just like our system is.
它可以在他们制造的系统中进入未来或过去数十亿年，就像我们的系统一样。
So can you speak to the three components here as I’m reading?
那么您能谈谈我正在阅读的这三个组成部分吗？
1:30:11 The Tzolk’in, the Haab, and the Long Count, what are these fascinating components of the calendar?
卓尔金历、哈布历和长历法，这些日历的迷人组成部分是什么？
It’s neat how obsessed…
真是太着迷了……
1:30:20 They were really math nerds.
他们确实是数学呆子。
It wasn’t good enough for them to just make one cycle to describe time.
对他们来说，仅仅用一个周期来描述时间是不够的。
They had all these cycles that interlocked into each other, like cogs in a machine, though they never thought of it like that.
他们拥有所有这些相互连锁的循环，就像机器中的齿轮一样，尽管他们从未这样想过。
But the Tzolk’in is their oldest one, and the one that still endures today.
但卓尔金是他们最古老的，并且至今仍然存在。
There are millions of Maya people that are living their lives based on a 260-day count.
以 260 天计算，有数百万玛雅人过着自己的生活。
No weeks, no months.
没有几周，没有几个月。
It’s just 13 numbers combined with 20 day names, for a total of 260 days, and then it goes again.
只有 13 个数字加上 20 天的名称，总共 260 天，然后又这样。
1:31:01 Everybody in the highlands knows what their birthday is in that calendar, knows what it means about their personality and the kind of jobs that they’re supposed to do.
高地的每个人都知道日历上的生日是哪一天，知道这对他们的个性以及他们应该从事的工作类型意味着什么。
Each one of those days has their own spirit and what’s supposed to happen in those days.
那些日子里的每一天都有自己的精神和那些日子里应该发生的事情。
The Maya collectively call them the Mom, the Grandmother, Grandfather spirits, and they talk to each one of those days, and they pray to them.
玛雅人统称他们为妈妈、祖母、祖父的灵魂，他们在那些日子里与每一天交谈，并向他们祈祷。
There’s now an association of some 8,000 people that are called [inaudible 01:31:33], that are daykeepers who are keeping the days, and they’re also like community psychologists, almost.
现在有一个由大约 8,000 人组成的协会，被称为 [听不清 01:31:33]，他们是负责记录日子的日间管理员，他们也几乎就像社区心理学家。
People come to them and say, “You know, my life is mixed up.
人们来找他们说：“你知道，我的生活很混乱。
What’s wrong here?” “Well, let’s ask the Mom.
这里出了什么问题吗？” “好吧，我们去问问妈妈吧。
Okay, well, it looks like you’re not doing this or that, or you know what, you’re an accountant?
好吧，看起来你不做这个或那个，或者你知道吗，你是一名会计师？
You’re not supposed to be an accountant.
你不应该成为一名会计师。
You’re supposed to be a midwife.
你应该是一名助产士。
What are you doing?
你在做什么？
You’re living your life wrong.
你的生活是错误的。
You’re a Kibʼ.
你是基布人。
You need to start being a Kibʼ person.”
你需要开始成为一个基布人。”
So they take extremely seriously the day on which you’re born, what that means, the spirit that embodies that day?
所以他们非常重视你出生的那一天，这意味着什么，体现了这一天的精神？
Right.
正确的。
1:32:08 Like, I’m Kibʼ, I’m 13, Kibʼ, and it’s funny how accurate a lot of them are.
就像，我是 Kib’，我 13 岁了，Kib’，有趣的是，其中很多都是准确的。
Mine is basically, is I’m an irresponsible husband and parent, but people like me, so my family still prospers.
我的基本上是，我是一个不负责任的丈夫和父母，但人们喜欢我，所以我的家庭仍然繁荣。
Like, well, God, that’s horribly accurate.
就像，上帝啊，这太准确了。
I mean, some of it is also the chicken or the egg.
我的意思是，其中有些也是先有鸡还是先有蛋。
1:32:29 If you truly believe, if you’ve structured society where this calendar is truly sacred, then it kind of like, the spirit does manifest itself in the life of the people that is born on that spirit’s day.
如果你真的相信，如果你已经构建了这个日历真正神圣的社会，那么它就有点像，精神确实在那个精神日出生的人们的生活中显现出来。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
It’s interesting.
这很有趣。
And the Maya really feel this, in this system.
玛雅人在这个系统中确实感受到了这一点。
1:32:50 So that’s the core system.
这就是核心系统。
This 260-day calendar was the very first calendar they made thousands of years ago, and it’s the one that’s most important today.
这个 260 天的日历是他们几千年前制作的第一个日历，也是今天最重要的日历。
Why 260 days, by the way?
顺便问一下，为什么是 260 天？
1:33:02 Is there a reasoning behind it?
这背后有道理吗？
Most Maya agree with this today, and who knows what the original architects, thousands of years ago were thinking, but it’s nine months, it’s the human gestation period.
今天大多数玛雅人都同意这一点，谁知道几千年前最初的建筑师在想什么，但现在是九个月，这是人类的妊娠期。
1:33:08 So if you conceived on the day 13, monkey, chances are your kid’s coming out on or near 13, monkey, and I think it’s beautiful.
所以，如果你在 13 号那天受孕，猴子，你的孩子很可能会在 13 号或接近 13 号出生，猴子，我认为这很美好。
I mean, if that’s right, that means the Maya and the people of Mesoamerica will all share it together, when they thought about, “We need a count of time for us,” they didn’t look up into the heavens, they looked into their bodies.
我的意思是，如果这是正确的，那就意味着玛雅人和中美洲人民将共同分享它，当他们想到“我们需要为我们计算时间”时，他们没有仰望天空，而是看着自己的身体。
“What’s the first cycle that we actually go through as humans?” and they picked this nine-month thing.
“作为人类，我们真正经历的第一个周期是什么？”他们选择了这个九个月的东西。
It really is our cycle, and no other culture on the planet looked inside themselves to create their calendar like that.
这确实是我们的周期，地球上没有其他文化会审视自己的内心来创建这样的日历。
So that’s the oldest one and the sacred one that still carries through to today.
所以这是最古老的，也是至今仍然延续的神圣的。
1:34:05 What’s the second one, the Haab?
第二个是什么，哈布？
The Haab is the solar calendar, the one that everybody on the planet eventually comes up with.
Haab 是太阳历，是地球上每个人最终想出的日历。
1:34:12 We know it’s second, though, because when they start talking about it, they use all the symbols and the numbers from the 260 one.
不过，我们知道它是第二个，因为当他们开始谈论它时，他们使用 260 中的所有符号和数字。
They say, “Well, we need a solar one, too.
他们说：“好吧，我们也需要一个太阳能。
Let’s just keep counting this another 105 days, and we’ll get to 365.”
我们再再数 105 天，就会达到 365 天。”
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
1:34:33 They kind of carry the same.
他们携带相同的东西。
Right.
正确的。
Got it, got it, got it, got it.
明白了，明白了，明白了，明白了。
1:34:35 And that’s useful, for all the sort of agriculture, all those kind of reasons?
这对于所有类型的农业、所有这些原因都有用吗？
Right.
正确的。
1:34:42 Though, interestingly, they never put a leap year in.
不过，有趣的是，他们从未设置闰年。
The Haab is also called the vague year, because it’s just 365, which means every year, they’re off a quarter of a day, and eventually, it starts really adding up.
Haab 也被称为模糊年，因为它只有 365，这意味着每年，他们都会休息四分之一天，最终，它开始真正累加。
In fact, it’s even caused modern problems.
事实上，它甚至引发了现代问题。
In this calendar here, I just do the straight math from 1,000 years ago.
在这个日历中，我只是直接计算 1000 年前的数据。
And so I place the beginning of the solar year differently than some Maya groups do, especially the guys in the highlands of Eastern Guatemala.
因此，我对太阳年开始的定位与一些玛雅群体的做法不同，尤其是危地马拉东部高地的人们。
They write me nasty emails saying, “I don’t know what time the year is,” but their relatives changed it in the 1950s, because their agricultural cycle was so far off.
他们给我写了一封令人讨厌的电子邮件，说：“我不知道一年中的时间”，但他们的亲戚在 20 世纪 50 年代改变了它，因为他们的农业周期太遥远了。
They moved it 60 days back to make it in the spring again, but it drifts, which is strange, because it’s not a very good thing for the agricultural cycle.
他们把它推迟了 60 天，以便在春天再次进行，但它却漂移了，这很奇怪，因为这对农业周期来说不是一件好事。
It’s one of these mysteries we still don’t have an explanation for.
这是我们仍然无法解释的谜团之一。
So that’s the Haab, and then what’s the Long Count?
这就是 Haab，那么长计数是什么？
The Long Count’s their really mysterious, cool one, because it’s a linear count of days, which are not like them.
长计数是他们真正神秘、酷的一种，因为它是线性的天数，这与他们不同。
1:35:49 It’s a bunch of cycles, like ours.
这是一堆循环，就像我们的一样。
You know, our weeks are a cycle, our months are a cycle, but it’s weird in that its estimation of the year in the Long Count system is only 360 days, so it’s miserably off a solar year.
你知道，我们的周是一个周期，我们的月是一个周期，但奇怪的是，它在长计数系统中对一年的估计只有 360 天，所以它与太阳年相差甚远。
They count in base 20, so like we count in 10s, we’re decimal, they count in base 20 vigesimal.
它们以 20 为基数计数，就像我们以 10 为单位计数一样，我们是十进制，它们以 20 为基数计数。
1:36:25 And so it should be there’s 1s, there’s 20s, there’s 400s, there’s 8,000s, there’s 160,000s.
所以应该是 1、20、400、8,000、160,000。
It goes just like our 10s, 100s, 1,000s, 10,000s, but it’s times 20.
它就像我们的 10、100、1,000、10,000 一样，但它是 20 的倍。
So they have days, months of 20 days, and then they have these years that should be, by their math, 400, but it’s only 360.
所以他们有几天，有 20 天的月份，然后他们有这些年，根据他们的计算，应该是 400，但实际上只有 360。
And that throws the whole thing out of whack going further up.
这使得整个事情变得更加混乱。
Then, they have a 20-year period and a 400- year period.
然后，他们有一个20年的期限和一个400年的期限。
400 years to their calendar, but by that time, it’s only 396 years in our reckoning.
他们的历法已经有 400 年了，但到那时，我们算下来只有 396 年了。
So it’s mysterious that it’s…
所以很神秘的是……
Why did they tweak it at the year to be only 360 days?
为什么他们把一年调整为只有360天？
That doesn’t follow any astronomy, that’s not the human cycle.
这不遵循任何天文学，也不是人类周期。
Yeah, but it’s interesting that they build up towards thinking about very long periods of time, like baktuns is 144,000 days.
是的，但有趣的是，他们开始思考很长的一段时间，比如 baktuns 是 144,000 天。
Right, ar a baktuns is 400 of the Long Count’s years, so it’s kind of like our millennium.
是的，ar a baktuns 是长计数年的 400 年，所以有点像我们的千年。
1:37:34 You know, we think it’s a big deal when we hit a millennium or a century.
你知道，当我们进入一千年或一个世纪时，我们认为这是一件大事。
They have a 20-year period that they do a lot of celebrations on, called a k’atun, and then they have the 400 baktun, which is the big one.
他们在 20 年期间举办很多庆祝活动，称为 k’atun，然后他们有 400 baktun，这是最大的庆祝活动。
That’s like their millennium, and 13 of those baktuns occurred in the creation before us.
这就像他们的千禧年，其中 13 个 baktun 发生在我们之前的创造中。
They also think that the world has had multiple creations.
他们还认为世界有多种创造。
They’re not alone in that.
他们并不孤单。
There’s lots of ancient civilizations who say that, but we’re technically in the fourth creation.
有很多古代文明都这么说，但从技术上讲，我们正处于第四次创造中。
1:38:18 And they have a creation story called the and the Popol Vuh, and the Popol Vuh is clear as day that the third creation ends with the help of these heroes called the Hero Twins, and the fourth creation begins.
他们有一个叫做“The and the Popol Vuh”的创世故事，Popol Vuh 很清楚，第三次创世在这些被称为“英雄双胞胎”的英雄的帮助下结束，第四次创世开始。
And so on the Maya monuments, we see them doing the math through the Long Count, and we can calculate it back very exactly.
所以在玛雅古迹上，我们看到他们通过长计数进行数学计算，我们可以非常精确地计算出来。
It happened, the fourth creation started on August 11th 3114 BC.
事情发生了，第四次创造开始于公元前 3114 年 8 月 11 日。
And it doesn’t say it’s day one, it says it’s the last day of the 13th baktun of the third creation, which leads us to believe that a creation is only 13 baktuns long.
它并没有说这是第一天，而是说这是第三次创造的第 13 个 baktun 的最后一天，这让我们相信一个创造只有 13 个 baktun 长。
Right, and this would be the fourth creation?
对吧，这将是第四次创作？
1:39:08 The calendar starts-
日历开始——
This is the fourth creation.
这是第四次创作。
1:39:13 But if you do the math, going from 3114 BC, and count 13 baktuns forward, you get to 2012.
但如果你算一下，从公元前 3114 年开始，向前数 13 个 baktun，你就会到 2012 年。
And hence, the very popular notion, the 2012…
因此，非常流行的概念是 2012 年……
1:39:25 Whenever that was December, something like-
每当十二月的时候，就会有这样的事情——
December 21st 2012.
2012 年 12 月 21 日。
…
……
1:39:34 will be the end of the world.
将是世界末日。
Right.
正确的。
So can you explain this?
那么你能解释一下吗？
Those were very fruitful years for me.
那对我来说是非常富有成效的几年。
1:39:38 I had so many lectures around the country that it’s like Garrett Morris in Saturday Night Live.
我在全国各地做了很多讲座，就像《周六夜现场》中的加勒特·莫里斯一样。
The apocalypse was very, very good to me.
世界末日对我来说非常非常好。
Ah, yeah, but that is pretty interesting.
啊，是的，但这很有趣。
1:39:54 So technically, it would be, what, in the fifth?
所以从技术上来说，它会是，什么，在第五个？
No.
不。
Yeah, technically we’d be in the fifth, though my argument was that, actually, if you look through all the corpus of Maya mathematics and calendars, they never say anything like that.
是的，从技术上讲，我们应该排在第五位，尽管我的论点是，实际上，如果你查看所有玛雅数学和日历的语料库，他们从来没有说过这样的话。
1:40:00 In fact, there’s a handful of dates that tell us that the fourth creation does continue farther on, that that baktun place should have 20 baktuns in it, like their counting system would dictate, not 13.
事实上，有一些日期告诉我们，第四次创造确实继续得更远，那个 baktun 地方应该有 20 个 baktun，就像他们的计数系统所规定的那样，而不是 13 个。
And there’s a place in Palenque, there’s a place in the Dresden Codex, and one other place I’m forgetting, that all talk about time after 2012.
帕伦克有一个地方，德累斯顿法典中有一个地方，还有一个我忘了的地方，都在谈论 2012 年之后的时间。
So how does that happen?
那么这是怎么发生的呢？
It’s a conflict.
这是一个冲突。
Is there supposed to be an overlap of the…
是否应该有重叠...
1:40:49 So it’s like 13 is the core of it, and it’s 20 long?
那么好像13是它的核心，而它的长度是20？
They love the number 13, it’s all over the place.
他们喜欢数字 13，这个数字随处可见。
1:40:57 It’s a magic number to them.
这对他们来说是一个神奇的数字。
My explanation, which I admit is not very solid, but I think that the magical deeds of the Hero Twins, in their creation story, at the end of the third creation, hit the magical reset button, and that it just restarted time right there, because of their magic, but that was not to say that the natural baktun cycle should be 13.
我的解释，我承认不是很可靠，但我认为英雄双胞胎的神奇事迹，在他们的创造故事中，在第三次创造结束时，按下了神奇的重置按钮，并且由于他们的魔力，时间就在那里重新开始，但这并不是说自然的 baktun 周期应该是 13。
And there are certain texts that go way forward in time or way backward in time, and whenever they want to do that, there are higher increments than just the baktun.
有些文本在时间上向前或向后，每当他们想要这样做时，就会有比 baktun 更高的增量。
1:41:47 Above that, there’s the piktun, then there’s the kalabatun, then there’s alawatun, and it goes on and on.
再上面是 piktun，然后是 kalabatun，然后是 alawatun，如此循环下去。
And these are like 160,000 years, huge increments of time.
这些就像 160,000 年一样，是巨大的时间增量。
Whenever they want to do that, and they talk about a long period of time, they start putting 13s in all of those increments, those higher increments.
每当他们想要这样做时，并且他们谈论很长一段时间，他们就会开始在所有这些增量中放入 13 秒，那些更高的增量。
And I think what they’re saying is they’re making an esoteric statement about the never-ending nature of time.
我认为他们所说的是他们正在对时间永无止境的本质做出深奥的陈述。
That’s what I think they’re telling us in those texts, that time goes on forever, magically.
我认为这就是他们在这些文字中告诉我们的，时间会神奇地永远持续下去。
But they still had a conception that it didn’t go on forever before, right?
但他们仍然有一个想法，这种情况不会永远持续下去，对吗？
1:42:24 That there was other civilizations that came before in there, and this is the fourth creation?
那里曾有过其他文明，这是第四次创造？
This is the fourth creation, and the gods made everybody.
这是第四次创造，众神创造了每个人。
1:42:35 The first ones made of mud and they melted.
第一个是用泥土制成的，然后融化了。
The second ones were made of sticks, but they were jerks to the animals.
第二个是用棍子做的，但对动物来说却很糟糕。
The third ones were like us, but flawed in some other way.
第三个和我们一样，但在其他方面有缺陷。
And then, we’re finally made of the blood of the gods and corn.
然后，我们终于由众神的鲜血和玉米组成。
We’re made out of corn, so we’re perfect.
我们是用玉米做的，所以我们是完美的。
And as it explains to us, the Popol Vuh does, we got it right this time.
正如 Popol Vuh 向我们解释的那样，我们这次做对了。
There’s no reason to believe that this creation has a set duration.
没有理由相信这个创作有固定的持续时间。
1:43:18 One of the weird things is that the Aztecs, who we talked to a lot at contact, they also had the concept of multiple creations before us, but they were real clear to the Spanish that they weren’t all the same time element.
奇怪的事情之一是，我们在接触中经常与阿兹特克人交谈，他们在我们面前也有多重创造的概念，但西班牙人很清楚，他们并不都是同一时间元素。
Some of them were in the three hundreds of years, some of them were in the seven hundreds of years, but they were not the same time period.
有的在三百年，有的在七百年，但并不是同一时期。
So our mathematical logic that if the third creation was 13, this one must be third creation, or also be 13, it’s in direct opposition to what the Aztecs told us about the nature of creations.
所以我们的数学逻辑是，如果第三次创造是13，那么这一次一定是第三次创造，或者也是13，这与阿兹特克人告诉我们的创造本质直接相反。
They’re different time periods.
他们是不同的时间段。
Why do you think there was the myth of the previous creations?
您认为为什么会有前世造物的神话？
1:44:01 Did they have some kind of long, multi-generational memory of prior civilizations?
他们是否对先前的文明拥有某种长期的、多代人的记忆？
It may have had some echo in the flood myths.
它可能在洪水神话中得到了一些回响。
Right, so same?
对吧，一样吗？
1:44:17 It’s the same kind of major myths carried through long periods of time?
这是长期流传的同一种重大神话吗？
There’s a lot of different opinions about it.
对此有很多不同的看法。
1:44:23 And if they were all 13, if we have 5 creations, like the Aztecs said, and they were all 13, they would come up to roughly 25,000 something years, which is very close to that processional cycle.
如果它们都是 13 个，如果我们有 5 个创造物，就像阿兹特克人所说的那样，它们都是 13 个，那么它们将达到大约 25,000 年左右，这非常接近那个游行周期。
So some people are like, “They designed it all to be one completion of the procession of the equinoxes.” I don’t believe that one, but that one sure sounds good, doesn’t it?
所以有些人会说，“他们设计这一切都是为了完成春分游行。”我不相信这个，但是那个听起来确实不错，不是吗？
Yeah.
是的。
That’s going to get a lot of internet hits.
这将获得大量互联网点击。
And one of the things I do obviously wonder about is why-
我显然想知道的一件事是为什么-
1:45:01 Wonder about is why the flood myth is part of most societies and most religions.
令人好奇的是为什么洪水神话是大多数社会和大多数宗教的一部分。
I think that one’s pretty easy.
我认为这很容易。
1:45:10 It’s the end of the ice age, when the bathtub filled back up.
这是冰河时代的结束，浴缸又填满了水。
So it’s just the ice age bathtub refilling.
所以这只是冰河时代浴缸的补充。
It’s the seas filling back up.
这是海洋重新填满。
And they, without really understanding what happened, they just carried that story.
他们并没有真正了解发生了什么，他们只是讲述了这个故事。
Everybody knows that everybody’s nice coastal village went under water and they had to seek higher ground.
每个人都知道，每个人美丽的沿海村庄都被水淹没了，他们必须寻找地势更高的地方。
And then just like people talking about the weather, everybody was talking about the weather for many generations as the sea level was going up, and then that myth carried.
然后就像人们谈论天气一样，随着海平面上升，很多代人都在谈论天气，然后这个神话就流传开来。
“Why do we live here, grandpa?” “Well, we used to live over there, but then the water came.”
“爷爷，我们为什么住在这里？” “嗯，我们以前住在那里，但后来水来了。”
And then many grandpas later is just kind of permeates every idea.
后来的许多祖父都渗透到了每一个想法中。
It becomes mythology, but global mythology.
它成为神话，而且是全球神话。
1:45:58 So that one, there’s a lot of things I don’t have a reasonable explanation for, but the flood myth is almost certainly the rise in sea level.
因此，有很多事情我没有合理的解释，但洪水神话几乎可以肯定是海平面上升。
So this idea that every day represents, carries a spirit.
所以这个每天都代表的想法承载着一种精神。
1:46:12 There’s modern day astrology.
有现代占星学。
Most people kind of consider astrology this maybe a bit unscientific woo-woo type of set of beliefs, but do you think there’s some wisdom that astrology carries?
大多数人都认为占星学这可能是一种有点不科学的呜呜式信仰，但你认为占星学蕴含着一些智慧吗？
From your scholarship of the Maya calendar, do you think if we carry that to the astrological perspective on the world, do you think there’s some wisdom there?
从您对玛雅历法的研究来看，您认为如果我们将其运用到占星学的世界观中，您认为其中有什么智慧吗？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
1:46:48 I have a woo-woo part of me.
我身上有一个“呜呜”的部分。
I would like to believe that stuff.
我愿意相信那些东西。
But I don’t think as a scientist, I cannot come up with a biological scientific reason why that would be true.
但我不认为作为一名科学家，我无法提出一个生物科学的理由来解释为什么这是真的。
And when you look at it objectively, I mean really?
当你客观地看待它时，我的意思是真的吗？
Is everybody born with the sign Scorpio a moody person?
天蝎座的人都是喜怒无常的人吗？
That’s just objectively not true.
这在客观上是不正确的。
1:47:24 But it is funny how oftentimes these Maya horoscopes, for lack of a better word, do hit the mark.
但有趣的是，由于找不到更好的词，这些玛雅占星术常常击中要害。
There was some student who surveyed like 300 people with the app I made and asked them about their Greek sign and their Maya sign, and his conclusion for his term paper was that the Maya one was working way better, which that’s fascinating.
有一些学生使用我制作的应用程序对大约 300 人进行了调查，并向他们询问了他们的希腊符号和玛雅符号，他在学期论文中得出的结论是，玛雅符号工作得更好，这很有趣。
At least that’s fun.
至少这很有趣。
But no, I think I’m too much of a scientist to believe that.
但不，我认为我太像一名科学家了，无法相信这一点。
I just don’t have any foundation in science that would allow us to believe that the month in which we were born in a cycle sets our personality and destiny.
我只是没有任何科学基础让我们相信我们出生的月份决定了我们的个性和命运。
I agree.
我同意。
1:48:09 And yet there’s so much mystery all around us that …
然而我们周围却有如此多的谜团……
What I do like is the inbuilt humility to that worldview, that there’s this whole, you can call it a spiritual world, but a world that we don’t quite understand.
我真正喜欢的是对这种世界观的内在谦逊，这是一个整体，你可以称之为精神世界，但我们不太理解这个世界。
And then you can wonder about what is the wisdom that that world carries.
然后你就会想知道这个世界承载着什么智慧。
And then you can construct all kinds of systems to try to interpret that, and then there is where the human hubris can come in.
然后你可以构建各种系统来尝试解释这一点，然后人类的傲慢就可以发挥作用。
But it’s good to be humbled by how little we know, I suppose.
但我想，因我们所知甚少而感到谦卑是件好事。
I do love the mysteries of the world.
我确实喜欢世界的奥秘。
1:48:46 And I would love to find an ancient civilization, but I don’t want to solve the mysteries of the world.
我很想找到一个古老的文明，但我不想解开世界的谜团。
I think they’re one of the things that make life worth living.
我认为它们是让生活变得有价值的事情之一。
That’s true.
这是真的。
1:49:00 That’s true.
这是真的。
You mentioned the Maya writing system.
您提到了玛雅书写系统。
What are some interesting aspects of their language that they’ve used in the written language that they used?
他们在书面语言中使用了哪些有趣的方面？
Well, one of the things that confound me as a guy who’s spent a better portion of my life studying it, I had the honor of being the student of Linda Schele right here at the University of Texas at Austin.
好吧，作为一个花了大半生时间研究它的人，让我感到困惑的事情之一是，我有幸成为德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校琳达·舍勒的学生。
1:49:12 She got the group together who broke the Maya code of hieroglyphics in the 1970s.
她召集了一群人，在 20 世纪 70 年代打破了玛雅象形文字密码。
So I learned from the best and loved every minute of it.
所以我向最优秀的人学习并享受其中的每一分钟。
I miss Linda.
我想念琳达。
Can you speak to that code actually, the hieroglyphic code and what it takes to break it?
您能实际谈谈该代码吗？象形文字代码以及如何破解它？
Oh boy, what a thing.
噢，天哪，真是太棒了。
1:49:40 We had kind of a Rosetta Stone.
我们有一种罗塞塔石碑。
We had a page out of Diego de Landa’s book.
我们有迭戈·德兰达书中的一页。
A priest who was converting the Maya in Yucatan asked his informants about their writing system and what every sound meant.
一位正在尤卡坦半岛改变玛雅人信仰的牧师向他的线人询问了他们的书写系统以及每个声音的含义。
And he was convinced they had an alphabet like we do.
他确信他们也有像我们一样的字母表。
So he got this Maya guy, sat down in Spanish, and he said, “Okay, you’re going to write all the symbols right here in my book.
所以他找到了这个玛雅人，用西班牙语坐下来，他说：“好吧，你要把所有的符号写在我的书里。
Write an ah here, write a be here, write a ce here.” And that guy just wrote all of the sounds that the priest told him to write.
在这里写一个 ah，在这里写一个 be，在这里写一个 ce。”那家伙只是写下了牧师告诉他写的所有声音。
They were actually syllables.
它们实际上是音节。
They were vowel consonant combinations.
它们是元音辅音的组合。
They weren’t an alphabet, but that turned into our Rosetta Stone of sorts.
它们不是字母表，但它变成了我们的罗塞塔石碑之类的东西。
1:50:34 The big key is that the Maya still speak that same language.
最关键的是玛雅人仍然说同一种语言。
There are millions of Maya people who are speaking a version of Maya.
有数百万玛雅人正在讲玛雅语的某个版本。
Now there’s where I get confused, that we’ve got a single writing system that is intelligible, we’ve broken the code, so we know that it’s basically the same writing system from the top of the Yucatan into Guatemala and El Salvador.
现在让我感到困惑的是，我们有一个易于理解的单一书写系统，我们已经破解了代码，所以我们知道从尤卡坦半岛顶部到危地马拉和萨尔瓦多，它基本上是相同的书写系统。
But we have 33 Maya languages today that are mutually unintelligible.
但今天我们有 33 种玛雅语言，它们之间互不相通。
And we backwards project the language of what they spoke back then that the glyphs are in to something called Chʼoltiʼ, which is a combination of Chʼortiʼ and Ch’ol, two of those languages.
我们向后投影他们当时所说的语言，这些字形属于一种称为 Ch'olti' 的语言，它是 Ch'orti' 和 Ch'ol 这两种语言的组合。
1:51:20 But it doesn’t work for me at all.
但这对我根本不起作用。
If there was one language, maybe two back then, how did it flower into 33 mutually unintelligible languages in just 500 years during acculturation and horrible infectious diseases that killed 90% of the population?
如果当时只有一种语言，也许是两种语言，那么它是如何在短短 500 年的文化适应和导致 90% 人口死亡的可怕传染病过程中发展成 33 种互相无法理解的语言的呢？
How did that happen?
这是怎么发生的？
So we’re missing something huge here.
所以我们在这里遗漏了一些重要的东西。
I think it’s more like Chinese, where Chinese letters, writing can be read in multiple languages and still understood.
我认为这更像中文，中文字母、书写可以用多种语言阅读并且仍然可以理解。
I don’t know exactly the mechanics of how that would happen, but it just seems impossible that there are more languages, not less languages, in the Maya area after the last 500 years that they’ve been through.
我不知道这是如何发生的确切机制，但在经历了过去 500 年之后，玛雅地区似乎不可能出现更多的语言，而不是更少的语言。
So you think that there’s some kind of process of either rapidly generating dialects or there always has been these dialects, or I should say they’re distinct languages, even though there was a common writing system?
所以你认为存在某种快速生成方言的过程，或者总是存在这些方言，或者我应该说它们是不同的语言，即使有一个共同的书写系统？
There must have been a way that multiple languages understood the same writing system.
一定有一种方法可以让多种语言理解同一个书写系统。
1:52:23 Or maybe there was something like Latin.
或者也许有类似拉丁语的东西。
You know how there was a period in Europe where most people were illiterate and there was this priesthood who all understood Latin and they wrote in Latin?
你知道在欧洲有一个时期，大多数人都是文盲，而祭司却都懂拉丁文，而且他们用拉丁文写作？
Maybe the hieroglyphs represent a kind of Latin in the ancient Maya world.
也许象形文字代表了古代玛雅世界的一种拉丁语。
But we don’t really know, and there’s not clear evidence to fill in the gaps of how it’s possible to have that.
但我们真的不知道，也没有明确的证据来填补如何实现这一点的空白。
Right.
正确的。
1:52:56 But we did realize, it was actually a Russian scholar named Yuri Knorozov who broke the code.
但我们确实意识到，破解密码的实际上是一位名叫尤里·克诺罗佐夫的俄罗斯学者。
The Americans and the Europeans were absolutely sure that the written language was a dead language.
美国人和欧洲人绝对确信书面语言是一种死语言。
But Yuri not knowing any of that, not being filled with all of those thoughts from America and Europe, went about it in the way that he was taught in his grad school in Moscow and just went to the dictionaries.
但尤里对此一无所知，也没有被来自美国和欧洲的所有这些想法所充满，他按照他在莫斯科研究生院所教的方式进行处理，只是去查字典。
And he looked at Yucatec language that they’re speaking today, and he applied it to the symbol system, and he knew that there were certain sounds.
他查看了他们今天所说的尤卡坦语，并将其应用到符号系统中，他知道有某些声音。
He used Landa’s alphabet.
他使用兰达的字母表。
1:53:45 His two key examples were a picture of a dog with a symbol over it and a picture of a turkey with a symbol over it.
他的两个关键例子是一张上面有一个符号的狗的图片和一张上面有一个符号的火鸡的图片。
And the dog, a dog in Yucatec is tzul.
尤卡坦克的狗是 tzul。
So he saw two symbols and he said, “This one’s probably tzul and this one’s ul”.
所以他看到了两个符号，他说：“这个可能是 tzul，这个是 ul”。
And then the Turkey was kutz, so it would be ku ending in tz.
然后火鸡是 kutz，所以是以 tz 结尾的 ku。
And he showed how, look, this is, this is tzul.
他展示了如何，看，这是，这是 tzul。
Those two things that should be tz are the same symbol.
这两个应该是 tz 的东西是同一个符号。
And that began this process of unraveling the syllables that we’re still working on today.
这就开始了我们今天仍在研究的音节的过程。
That’s fascinating.
这很有趣。
1:54:25 Just that decoding process is fascinating.
只是这个解码过程就很有趣。
How do you even figure that out?
你怎么知道这一点？
And there’s probably still, are you aware of any written languages that haven’t been decoded yet?
可能还有，您知道还有哪些尚未被解码的书面语言吗？
Yeah, there’s a number of them.
是的，有很多。
1:54:38 There’s Easter Island script.
有复活节岛剧本。
I was just talking to, we’ve apparently made a few advances there now.
我刚才谈到，我们现在显然已经取得了一些进展。
It’s called Rongorono.
它的名字叫朗戈罗诺。
And we only have about maybe 25 examples of texts, but we’re beginning to break that.
我们大约只有 25 个文本示例，但我们正在开始打破这一现状。
1:54:55 There’s also, the big one is Harappan.
还有，最大的一个是哈拉帕。
For a long time we used to say there were five independent scripts on the planet, and those were Chinese, Cuneiform, which is Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Maya, and then Harappan, which is from Northern India.
很长一段时间，我们常说地球上有五种独立的文字，分别是中文、美索不达米亚楔形文字、埃及文字、玛雅文字，以及来自印度北部的哈拉帕文字。
That’s the only one that we’ve never cracked.
这是唯一一个我们从未破解过的问题。
And now all the epigraphers, the people, that’s the term, epigraphy is translating these languages, they’re all ganging up on Harappan and want to kick it off the list because we can’t break it.
现在所有的金石学家，人民，就是这个词，金石学正在翻译这些语言，他们都在联合起来攻击哈拉帕语，想把它从名单上剔除，因为我们无法打破它。
It had a big enough symbol set, but no one’s been able to crack it.
它有足够大的符号集，但没有人能够破解它。
And now they’re saying it’s just an elaborate symbol set and doesn’t reflect the spoken word.
现在他们说这只是一个精心设计的符号集，并不反映口头语言。
That’s a hypothesis, which would explain why it’s so difficult to break.
这是一个假设，它可以解释为什么它如此难以打破。
But we could just be faced with a quitter generation.
但我们可能面临的是放弃的一代。
1:55:52 Maybe somebody will pick up the baton next generation.
也许有人会接过下一代的接力棒。
Kids these days.
这年头的孩子们。
The other one that fascinates me is from the Americas.
另一件令我着迷的事来自美洲。
1:55:59 It’s the quipu.
这是基普。
The Inca had the quipu, this knotted string records, but it was definitely encoding more than just math.
印加人有 quipu，这种打结的绳子记录，但它编码的绝对不仅仅是数学。
We know the math.
我们知道数学。
I can do the math quipus and figure out what they’re totaling of things.
我可以做数学问答并算出它们的总和。
Yeah, there’s a quipu right there.
是的，那里有一个 quipu。
“Quipu are recording devices fashioned from strings historically used by a number of cultures in the region of Andean South America.
“Quipu 是一种由南美洲安第斯地区多种文化历史上使用的琴弦制成的录音设备。
1:56:19 A quipu usually consists of cotton or camelid fiber strings.” So there’s a set of strings and they’re supposed to what, to be saying something?
quipu 通常由棉线或骆驼纤维线组成。”那么有一组字符串，它们应该做什么，说些什么？
There’s one long string that the little ones dangle off of.
有一根长绳子，小孩子们就在上面晃来晃去。
1:56:32 And each one of the dangling strings have sets of knots on them.
每根悬挂的绳子上都有一组结。
And the knots, some of them are mathematical quipus, and those, we can just do the math.
还有那些结，其中一些是数学妙语，而那些，我们可以做数学计算。
We can prove that it’s math.
我们可以证明这是数学。
1:56:49 They also encoded language in there.
他们还在其中编码了语言。
They had entire libraries in Cusco where Spanish conquistadors were brought through, and the caretakers of the libraries would just, they’d say, “Pull that one down, read that one to me.” And he’d pull it out and just read a history of something that happened 200 years earlier.
他们在库斯科拥有整座图书馆，西班牙征服者都经过那里，图书馆的管理员只会说，“把那一本拉下来，读给我听。”他会把它拿出来，阅读 200 年前发生的事情的历史。
So it was definitely writing.
所以肯定是写的。
1:57:11 But in the 1570s, one head of the church there had all of the people that could read them called quipucamayocs, gathered up, had them read all of their quipus and transcribe them into Spanish books, and then had the quipus burned and those people murdered.
但在 1570 年代，教会的一位领袖召集了所有能够阅读这些书的人（称为 quipucamayocs），让他们阅读所有的 quipus 并将其转录成西班牙语书籍，然后烧毁了 quipus，并谋杀了这些人。
Well, there you go.
好吧，就这样吧。
And so we can’t break the code still today, but we know it was absolutely a written language.
所以我们今天仍然无法破解代码，但我们知道它绝对是一种书面语言。
1:57:33 Though it wasn’t written, it was weaved or knotted.
虽然没有写下来，但它是编织或打结的。
And there’s still some quipus available that could be-
还有一些可用的 quipus 可能是-
I think now we’ve just crossed the 1,000 mark.
我想现在我们刚刚突破 1,000 人大关。
1:57:48 So we have 1,000 quipus.
所以我们有 1,000 个 quipus。
There’s enough to break the code, and I think this generation might be the one that does it.
有足够的东西可以打破密码，我认为这一代人可能会做到这一点。
It’s sad that so few have survived.
令人遗憾的是，幸存下来的人太少了。
1:58:01 1,000 is good, but its-
1,000 很好，但是——
But see, Peru has barely scratched the surface with archeology.
但你看，秘鲁的考古学仅仅触及了皮毛。
1:58:07 There’s so much out there.
那里有很多东西。
There was a priest I read about named Diego de Porres, who was one of the early people in Peru converting communities.
我读到过一位名叫迭戈·德·波雷斯（Diego de Porres）的牧师，他是秘鲁社区早期皈依基督教的人之一。
And his chronicle is real clear that he wanted to teach this community of 3,000 people all the Spanish prayers, the important ones for them to be converted into Christianity.
他的编年史非常清楚地表明，他想向这个由 3,000 人组成的社区传授所有西班牙祈祷文，这是让他们皈依基督教的重要祈祷文。
And he had the community’s quipucamayocs knot quipus for each person that told them that they could read them out and memorize the prayers.
他还为每个人准备了社区的 quipucamayocs 结 quipus，告诉他们可以读出并记住祈祷文。
And if they were caught without their quipu in town, they were flogged.
如果他们在城里被发现没有带基普，就会受到鞭打。
So he had 3,000 of the same quipu made and handed out to this community.
于是他制作了 3,000 个同样的 quipu 并分发给这个社区。
If we find that community and find its cemetery, there is our Rosetta Stone.
如果我们找到那个社区并找到它的墓地，那就是我们的罗塞塔石碑。
It is probably the case there is somebody in Peru and maybe a large community that knows this language that understands, and you just have to show up and ask them.
情况可能是秘鲁有人，也许是一个大社区，知道这种语言并能理解，你只需要出现并询问他们即可。
1:59:05 And it’s like, they’re like, “Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.”
就像，他们就像，“哦，是的，是的，是的。”
There are some communities that are using them.
有一些社区正在使用它们。
1:59:18 There’s a couple of them that we had high hopes for, and then it was apparent that they were just making shit up.
我们对其中的一些寄予厚望，但很明显他们只是在胡编乱造。
They didn’t actually know how to read it.
他们实际上不知道如何阅读它。
They just knew it used to be read so they made a bunch of stuff about what it says, and they bring it out and they act like they can read it.
他们只是知道它曾经被阅读，所以他们根据它的内容制作了一堆东西，然后他们把它拿出来，表现得好像他们可以阅读它。
But then when you ask them the details, they don’t know.
但当你问他们细节时，他们却不知道。
1:59:37 But then on a much simpler level, there’s llama herders who keep a string in their pocket and they’ve got the knots equaling how many llamas they have, and then they have subcategories of information like, this one’s sick, we’ve lost these ones, this one’s pregnant.
但在更简单的层面上，骆驼牧民在口袋里放了一根绳子，他们的绳结等于他们有多少只骆驼，然后他们有信息的子类别，比如，这个生病了，我们失去了这些，这个怀孕了。
So they have these more simple and more mathematical quipus, but they’re using them to affect as a record.
所以他们有这些更简单、更数学的俏皮话，但他们用它们来影响作为记录。
Is it possible through archeology to know what the social organization of the Maya was?
通过考古学可以知道玛雅人的社会组织是什么样的吗？
2:00:04 Maybe if there was a hierarchy, maybe what the political structure was, if there was a leader, different roles, priests, who had the power, who was powerless, who had certain kinds of roles, is it possible to know that?
也许如果有一个等级制度，也许政治结构是什么，如果有一个领导者，不同的角色，牧师，谁有权力，谁无权，谁有某些类型的角色，有可能知道吗？
Actually because of hieroglyphs, yeah, we know a whole lot.
事实上，因为象形文字，我们知道了很多。
2:00:28 There’s basic things that archeology, which is a very blunt tool, can figure out like this guy lives in a rich house, this guy lives in a poor house.
考古学是一种非常生硬的工具，可以弄清楚一些基本的事情，比如这个人住在富裕的房子里，这个人住在贫穷的房子里。
But the hieroglyphs tell us specific stuff about who can rule, that it was hereditary, that hereditary rule was based on royal blood that could be burned and connect to the ancestors that lived up in the sky versus the one that’s lived in the underworld.
但象形文字告诉我们关于谁可以统治的具体信息，它是世袭的，世袭统治是基于皇室血统，可以燃烧并连接到生活在天空中的祖先和生活在地下世界的祖先。
It also told us things about hierarchy like that there were councils of lords underneath the king who each represented clans who had their own neighborhoods, and that there were revolving positions of authority.
它还告诉我们有关等级制度的事情，比如国王下面有领主委员会，每个代表都有自己的社区的氏族，并且权力职位有轮换。
2:01:17 There was the site that I mapped for my dissertation and spent years in the jungle there, Palenque, had a lord’s title named Fire Lord.
我为论文绘制了地图，并在那里的丛林中度过了数年，帕伦克，有一个领主的头衔，名为火领主。
That was one of the generals of their army.
那是他们军队的一位将军。
And we could tell that position changed over time.
我们可以看出，随着时间的推移，这一立场发生了变化。
So there was one guy named Chak Suutz’ who was the Fire Lord for the early part of a reign of a king called Ahkal Moʼ Nahb.
因此，有一个名叫 Chak Suutz 的人，他是一位名叫 Ahkal Mo' Nahb 的国王统治初期的火领主。
Then by the time he carves this other panel, there’s another guy in the position of K’ak Ajaw, which was the Fire Lord.
然后，当他雕刻另一块面板时，有另一个人处于 K’ak Ajaw 的位置，即火领主。
And so he had-
所以他——
Got promoted or demoted?
升职还是降职？
Well, he could have been killed in the case of that.
好吧，在这种情况下他可能会被杀。
2:01:58 But then we have the interesting case of in the Postclassic, they shed the idea of kings.
但我们在后古典时期有一个有趣的例子，他们抛弃了国王的想法。
They don’t like kings anymore.
他们不再喜欢国王了。
That’s probably a big part of why the Classic disappearance and the abandonment of all those cities happened.
这可能是经典消失和所有这些城市被遗弃发生的一个重要原因。
People just got sick of kings.
人们只是厌倦了国王。
And so they turn into this more council system at Chichen Itza.
因此，他们在奇琴伊察变成了更多的理事会制度。
2:02:23 But then when Chichen Itza falls, there’s a new city that’s architecture looks a lot like Chichen Itza.
但当奇琴伊察陷落时，出现了一座新城市，其建筑看起来很像奇琴伊察。
It’s called Mayapan.
它被称为玛雅潘。
But it has what is called the League of Mayapan.
但它有所谓的玛雅潘联盟。
And it has a council of representatives from the communities from all around the Yucatan.
它有一个由来自尤卡坦半岛各地社区的代表组成的委员会。
And it is basically a democracy.
它基本上是一个民主国家。
It is a Maya democracy that happens.
这是玛雅民主的发生。
The individuals from all around the Yucatan are there.
来自尤卡坦半岛各地的人都在那里。
Each family has their own council house at Mayapan, though they live back at their place.
每个家庭在玛雅潘都有自己的议会大厦，但他们还是住在自己的地方。
It’s kind of like a Maya Congress.
这有点像玛雅大会。
Representative of democracy.
民主的代表。
It really was.
确实如此。
2:03:04 And this happens in, I guess, 1250 AD that this Maya democracy happens.
我猜这发生在公元 1250 年，也就是玛雅民主发生的时候。
And we know the names of them, we know the families.
我们知道他们的名字，我们知道他们的家人。
And of course, they were humans, so eventually they screwed it all up.
当然，他们也是人类，所以最终他们把一切都搞砸了。
One family murdered another family and the whole city burned.
一个家庭谋杀了另一个家庭，整个城市被烧毁。
And of course, it’s probably some fascinating corruption, which is hard to discover through-
当然，这可能是一些令人着迷的腐败，很难通过——
Part of it was the Aztecs screwing things up.
部分原因是阿兹特克人把事情搞砸了。
2:03:32 The Aztecs came down with all sorts of, “We’ll buy everything you’re making.” And then eventually they were like, “Could we maybe buy some humans?” And then one family was like, “No.” And the other family was like, “I don’t know, they’re making us a lot of money.” So then they murdered each other, and the water supply got polluted, and then the city burned.
阿兹特克人的态度多种多样，“我们会买你制造的一切。”最后他们想，“我们可以买一些人类吗？”然后一个家庭说：“不。”另一个家庭则说：“我不知道，他们给我们赚了很多钱。”于是他们互相残杀，水源被污染，然后城市被烧毁。
It seems like slavery, murder, and disease is a large component of the story of humans.
奴隶制、谋杀和疾病似乎是人类故事的重要组成部分。
2:03:55 You mentioned different periods in the Maya, the Classic, the Postclassic, the Preclassic, the Archaic.
您提到了玛雅的不同时期，古典时期、后古典时期、前古典时期、古代时期。
Can you just speak to that?
你能简单谈谈吗？
So Archaic is before there was really a civilization?
那么古代是在真正有文明之前吗？
Archaic’s pretty much when everybody’s hunter-gatherers.
当每个人都是狩猎采集者时，就已经很古老了。
So the Classic period was the golden age.
所以古典时期是黄金时代。
2:04:17 And then the Preclassic is the interesting time that we were talking about.
然后前古典时期就是我们谈论的有趣的时期。
And the Postclassic is when the democracy came about.
后古典时期是民主诞生的时期。
Well, midway through it.
嗯，就在中间。
2:04:28 Reverted back to council systems.
恢复到议会系统。
The Maya loved to be part of councils.
玛雅人喜欢成为议会的一部分。
2:04:34 So yeah, we have Preclassic is like the origins of civilization.
所以，是的，我们有前古典就像文明的起源。
They’re starting to build cities.
他们开始建造城市。
They’re starting to create their calendar.
他们开始创建他们的日历。
They’re starting to create these wonderful works of art.
他们开始创作这些美妙的艺术作品。
And the Classic period, if you look at 10 different textbooks for the Maya, you’ll get 10 different dates that wiggle around in there.
在古典时期，如果你看 10 本不同的玛雅教科书，你会发现其中有 10 个不同的日期。
But basically that’s the age of kings to me.
但对我来说基本上那是国王的时代。
That’s when these cities decide that they’re going to organize themselves around elite royal families that have this magical blood that can contact their ancestors that are directly in contact with the gods.
那时，这些城市决定，他们将围绕精英王室组织起来，这些王室拥有这种神奇的血统，可以与直接与众神接触的祖先联系起来。
The Maya never contact their gods directly.
玛雅人从不直接接触他们的神。
They contact their ancestors who are up there who act like liaisons to the gods.
他们与天上的祖先联系，他们的行为就像众神的联络人。
2:05:22 And so the Maya age of kings has these dynasties sprouting up where these people have basically snowed the rest of the people, that they’ve got a special quality of their blood and only their offspring can do the same trick and talk to the gods, where everybody, every Joe Maya can let their blood and burn it and contact their ancestor.
因此，在玛雅国王时代，这些王朝如雨后春笋般涌现，这些人基本上让其他人雪上加霜，他们的血液具有特殊的品质，只有他们的后代才能做同样的伎俩并与神交谈，每个人，每个乔玛雅人都可以让他们的血液燃烧并联系他们的祖先。
But Joe Maya’s dad is just a corn farmer who lives down below and he’s got no influence over the gods.
但乔·玛雅的父亲只是一个住在下面的玉米农，他对众神没有任何影响力。
But the rulers, their spirits go down briefly, but then they go up into the heavens and reside where the gods are and act as liaisons.
但统治者的灵魂会短暂下降，但随后就会升入天堂，居住在诸神所在的地方，充当联络员的角色。
So that’s the validation for this kingship that happens for about 400 years.
这就是对这个王权的验证，持续了大约 400 年。
2:06:11 I know we say 250 to 900, which is kind of the encompassing edges of it, but it’s interesting that it’s actually specifically the ninth bakʼtun of their history.
我知道我们说的是 250 到 900，这是它的包围边缘，但有趣的是，这实际上是他们历史上的第九个 bak'tun。
The ninth bakʼtun begins in like 426, and it ends in like 829.
第九个巴克屯开始于约 426 年，结束于约 829 年。
So it’s a 400-year period of time.
所以这是一个400年的时期。
And before that, there were no kings.
在此之前，没有国王。
And after that, there really aren’t kings.
在那之后，就真的没有国王了。
They’re heads of councils.
他们是议会的首脑。
So I call it the age of kings, where everybody’s following the directives of basically a despot.
所以我称之为国王时代，每个人基本上都遵循暴君的指令。
And for a while, that’s great.
有一段时间，这很棒。
Cities build up, populations happening.
城市不断建立，人口不断增加。
I see it as kind of a cult of personality moment too.
我也认为这是一种个人崇拜的时刻。
Strong, charismatic leaders inspire people to do great things together.
强大、有魅力的领导者激励人们一起做伟大的事情。
2:07:06 But eventually happens all the time with power, too much power corrupts.
但最终权力总是会发生，太多的权力会腐败。
All of a sudden there’s this unwieldy huge elite class that has to be treated special by everybody else.
突然之间，出现了一个笨拙的庞大精英阶层，必须受到其他人的特殊对待。
And they start saying, “Well, I think we should fight with those guys and you guys should go take these things.” And people eventually get sick of it and they walk away from these cities, and that’s how we get the mysterious Maya collapse where all these cities are just gone.
他们开始说：“好吧，我认为我们应该与那些家伙战斗，而你们应该去拿走这些东西。”人们最终厌倦了它，他们离开了这些城市，这就是我们如何得到神秘的玛雅崩溃，所有这些城市都消失了。
That’s one of the great mysteries of the Maya civilization is that over a very short period of time, like a hundred years, it seems to have declined very rapidly.
玛雅文明最大的谜团之一是，在很短的时间内，比如一百年，它似乎衰落得非常迅速。
2:07:35 It collapsed.
它崩溃了。
What do you think explains that?
您认为如何解释这一点？
What happened?
发生了什么？
I think it’s a failing of archeology to properly see what was happening.
我认为考古学未能正确了解正在发生的事情。
2:07:50 I think that most of those cities populations moved no more than 20 to 40 kilometers out and started their own farm, and they lived in perishable houses.
我认为这些城市人口中的大多数人搬到了不超过20到40公里的地方，开始了自己的农场，他们住在易腐烂的房子里。
And all archeology signature sees is that nobody lives in the city center anymore.
所有考古学特征都表明，市中心已经没有人居住了。
We don’t see a bunch of mass bodies.
我们没有看到一堆质量体。
There’s no evidence of people getting sick.
没有证据表明人们生病了。
There are certain cities that fought with each other at the end, and we see that signature plain as day.
有些城市最后互相争斗，我们看到这个签名一目了然。
We know when a city was attacked and burned.
我们知道一座城市何时遭到袭击和烧毁。
Mostly that didn’t happen.
大多数情况下这并没有发生。
People moved and migrated.
人们搬家、迁徙。
2:08:33 And it seems like right there around between 800 and 900, a lot of the elites that were on top, most of it was in the rainforests of northern Guatemala, they move.
看起来大约有 800 到 900 名顶尖精英，其中大部分在危地马拉北部的雨林中，他们搬走了。
They move in two directions.
他们朝两个方向移动。
Some of them move into the highlands of Guatemala, and some of them move up into the Yucatan.
他们中的一些人迁移到危地马拉高地，另一些人迁移到尤卡坦半岛。
The city of Chichen Itza becomes the next big capital in Yucatan.
奇琴伊察市成为尤卡坦半岛的下一个大城市。
But the word Itza is actually a word describing the people who lived around Lake Peten Itza in northern Guatemala.
但“Itza”这个词实际上是描述居住在危地马拉北部佩滕伊察湖周围的人们的一个词。
And all of the Maya are super clear about that, that the Itza came in as immigrants with these new ideas and created Chichen Itza.
所有玛雅人都非常清楚这一点，伊察人作为移民带着这些新想法进来并创造了奇琴伊察。
So the elites who were no longer welcome in their cities just moved and set up shops somewhere else.
因此，那些不再在自己的城市受到欢迎的精英们只能搬到其他地方开设商店。
So why was there a decline?
那么为什么会出现下降呢？
2:09:31 What was maybe the catalyst?
也许催化剂是什么？
Was there a specific kind of events that started this?
是否有某种特定的事件引发了这一切？
Was this an idea that kind of transformed the society?
这是一个改变社会的想法吗？
We are still debating that.
我们仍在争论这一点。
2:09:40 I don’t think there is a single reason.
我认为没有单一的原因。
I think humans are complicated.
我觉得人性是很复杂的。
I think a lot of things led to this.
我认为有很多事情导致了这一点。
One thing we can see archeologically is that every one of the cities became overpopulated.
我们从考古学上可以看到的一件事是，每个城市都变得人口过剩。
They were too popular.
他们太受欢迎了。
And we think that they pushed the limits of their capacity to feed and house people.
我们认为他们突破了人们吃饭和居住能力的极限。
We see it in lots of the cities at the end of the Classic period that people are seasonally starving.
在古典时期末期，我们在许多城市看到人们季节性挨饿。
2:10:12 I remember really stark evidence in Copán, Honduras.
我记得洪都拉斯科潘的明显证据。
Copán was this beautiful city, lineage of 17 kings.
科潘是一座美丽的城市，有 17 位国王的血统。
But the last kings and the last elite burials that we dig from the city center, the teeth are the telling part.
但我们从市中心挖掘的最后一批国王和最后一批精英墓葬中，牙齿是最能说明问题的部分。
They get this thing, when you’re growing up and you’re not getting enough food seasonally, it shows up in the enamel of your teeth.
他们得到了这个东西，当你长大并且你没有得到足够的季节性食物时，它就会出现在你的牙釉质中。
It’s called dental hypoplasia.
这称为牙齿发育不全。
And if somebody’s seasonally starving, it gets these lines in their teeth.
如果有人季节性挨饿，牙齿上就会出现这些皱纹。
And that last generation of Maya before they left Copán, even the rich people are seasonally starving.
离开科潘之前的最后一代玛雅人，即使是富人也在季节性挨饿。
So there’s a problem there for sure.
所以这里面肯定有问题。
2:10:59 But I also think, it’s a weird thing, it was not an empire.
但我也认为，这很奇怪，它不是一个帝国。
It was a group of independent city states like Greece.
它是一群像希腊一样的独立城邦国家。
Some of them were allied, some of them were enemies.
他们中有些人是盟友，有些人是敌人。
There was a huge civil war that settled out about the end of the Classic period.
古典时期末期爆发了一场大规模的内战。
So if it was Europe, the victors would’ve taken over, the losers would’ve beat it and gone wherever they went.
因此，如果是欧洲，胜利者就会接管，失败者就会击败它，然后去往任何地方。
But when they abandoned these cities that were independent still, they all left both the guys that won and the guys that lost the war.
但当他们放弃这些仍然独立的城市时，他们都离开了战争的胜利者和失败者。
So it couldn’t be just as simple as spoils go to the victor.
所以事情不可能是胜利者得奖那么简单。
2:11:36 It’s such a wide area.
这是一个如此广阔的区域。
Not everybody was starving like the people in the Copán Valley.
并不是每个人都像科潘山谷的人们一样挨饿。
So I personally think it was calendrically timed.
所以我个人认为这是按日历计时的。
It is interesting to note that that ninth period, that ninth 400-year period ends right then.
有趣的是，第九个时期，第九个 400 年时期就在那时结束。
And I think a lot of people, I can’t prove it archeologically, but I think a lot of people said we’re coming to the end of a great cycle and we need to renew.
我认为很多人，我无法从考古学上证明这一点，但我认为很多人说我们即将结束一个伟大的周期，我们需要更新。
We need to change what we’re doing.
我们需要改变我们正在做的事情。
2:12:06 When you talk to the Maya today, like at the end of this 2012 thing, if you actually talk to Maya, say, “What happens at the end of a big cycle here?” They say cycles are a time of renewal and transformation, that it is all of our obligation to change our lives at the end of cycles.
当你今天与玛雅人交谈时，比如在 2012 年的事情结束时，如果你真的与玛雅人交谈，请说：“这里一个大周期结束时会发生什么？”他们说周期是更新和转变的时期，我们有义务在周期结束时改变我们的生活。
That change is coming.
这种改变即将到来。
We can either be part of it or we can get steamrolled by it.
我们要么成为它的一部分，要么被它压垮。
2:12:32 The Aztecs did this neat thing called the New Fire Ceremony every 52 years, which was the biggest their calendar would go.
阿兹特克人每 52 年就会举行一次名为“新火仪式”的巧妙活动，这是他们日历上最盛大的一次。
They’d burn down perfectly good temples.
他们会烧毁完美的寺庙。
And they’d burn down their houses sometimes.
有时他们会烧毁他们的房子。
And they would just, everybody in society would perform this, what they call the New Fire Ceremony, and they would renew the world.
他们只是，社会上的每个人都会执行这个，他们称之为新火仪式，他们会更新世界。
So I think my personal theory is that the Maya decided at the end of the ninth bakʼtun that it was time to renew the world.
所以我认为我个人的理论是，玛雅人在第九次巴克顿结束时决定是时候更新世界了。
I think this theory makes sense because they really internalized the calendar.
我认为这个理论是有道理的，因为他们确实将日历内化了。
2:13:05 That was a really big part of their culture, the sense of the cyclical nature of civilization.
这是他们文化的一个重要组成部分，即文明的循环性意识。
That’s what I think.
我就是这么想的。
2:13:15 I think that they created that calendar to perceive the cycle and to harmonize with it.
我认为他们创建日历是为了感知周期并与之协调一致。
You mentioned the Aztec.
你提到了阿兹特克人。
2:13:27 What was the origin of the Aztec?
阿兹特克人的起源是什么？
Where did these people come from, at what time, and how?
这些人从哪里来、什么时间、怎样来的？
Almost every one of the cultures we’re talking about now, we have two different versions of the answer to that question.
几乎我们现在谈论的每一种文化，对于这个问题都有两个不同版本的答案。
2:13:36 We have the archeology version, and we have the Aztecs themselves.
我们有考古版本，还有阿兹特克人本身。
The Aztecs have this wonderful migration story where they say that they came from a place well to the north called Aztlán.
阿兹特克人有一个精彩的迁徙故事，他们说他们来自北方一个叫阿兹特兰的地方。
And that they had this migration that went through kind of a hero’s journey where they go to this snake mountain place and they encounter the birth of the war god that they’ll worship after this.
他们的这次迁徙经历了某种英雄的旅程，他们去了这个蛇山地方，并遇到了他们在此之后崇拜的战神的诞生。
And how they stepped into the Valley of Mexico as the last, the lost brothers of everyone in the Valley of Mexico.
以及他们如何作为最后一个踏入墨西哥谷，墨西哥谷每个人失去的兄弟。
They said that they all came from the north near Aztlán as a place, a cave with seven different passages called Chicomoztoc.
他们说，他们都来自北部阿兹特兰附近的一个地方，一个有七个不同通道的洞穴，称为奇科莫斯托克。
And that all the people who spoke the language Nahuatl came from the cave.
所有说纳瓦特尔语的人都来自洞穴。
And most of them went early to the Valley of Mexico.
他们中的大多数人很早就去了墨西哥谷。
And in the Aztecs’ story, they were just the lost tribe.
在阿兹特克人的故事中，他们只是失落的部落。
They were the last brothers to come in.
他们是最后进来的兄弟。
2:14:51 But then they show up late game, and they become mercenaries.
但后来他们出现在游戏后期，并成为雇佣兵。
They just start working for communities in the Valley of Mexico.
他们刚刚开始为墨西哥谷的社区工作。
And this takes place in the 1300s.
这发生在1300年代。
So about 200 years before Cortez shows up, the Aztecs show up to the Valley of Mexico.
因此，在科尔特斯出现之前大约 200 年，阿兹特克人出现在墨西哥谷。
And they make themselves this indispensable group of mercenaries.
而他们也让自己成为了这支不可或缺的雇佣兵群体。
They do the dirty work.
他们做肮脏的工作。
All the civilized communities around Lake Texcoco, which is now Mexico City, it’s all dried up, but those guys were too civilized to fight with each other.
特斯科科湖（现在的墨西哥城）周围的所有文明社区都已经干涸，但那些家伙太文明了，不会互相争斗。
But they could hire the Aztecs to do their dirty stuff.
但他们可以雇佣阿兹特克人来做他们肮脏的事情。
So the Aztecs did that and really changed the politics in the game of the Valley of Mexico.
阿兹特克人做到了这一点，并真正改变了墨西哥谷游戏中的政治。
The dirty stuff.
肮脏的东西。
2:15:43 They were the muscle.
他们是肌肉。
Yeah.
是的。
2:15:46 They’d go in and they’d kill whoever you wanted killed, and now you’re the king of this area.
他们会进去杀掉你想杀的人，现在你是这个地区的国王。
2:15:52 So one of these kings that they were working for really liked them and decided, I’m going to make the Aztecs part of our ancestry.
因此，他们为之工作的其中一位国王非常喜欢他们，并决定，我将使阿兹特克人成为我们祖先的一部分。
I’m going to give them my daughter to marry the head of the Aztecs.
我要把我的女儿嫁给他们，让他们嫁给阿兹特克人的首领。
And the Aztecs sacrificed her.
阿兹特克人牺牲了她。
And that really pissed that guy off.
这真的让那家伙很生气。
So he took his whole army and ran the Aztecs out for a while.
于是他率领全军暂时赶走了阿兹特克人。
They say they live in this horrible desert section eating lizards.
他们说他们生活在这个可怕的沙漠地区，以蜥蜴为食。
2:16:22 But then one of their priests say, “We’re going to walk around the lake, and my visions say that where we see an eagle sitting on a cactus with a snake in its mouth is where we will build our capital.” And they see that, but it’s out on an island in the lake.
但随后他们的一位牧师说：“我们要绕湖散步，我的幻象说，我们看到一只鹰坐在仙人掌上，嘴里叼着一条蛇，那里就是我们要建造首都的地方。”他们看到了，但那是在湖中的一个岛上。
And he said, “Well, I don’t know, that’s the place.” So they build up an island, they go to that island, and then they just start piling up lake muck until they make a whole city there in the middle of the lake.
他说：“好吧，我不知道，就是那个地方。”所以他们建造了一个岛，他们去了那个岛，然后他们开始堆放湖里的淤泥，直到他们在湖中央建造了一座完整的城市。
They make an island city.
他们建造了一座岛屿城市。
And all of this occurs in about a hundred years.
而这一切都发生在大约一百年的时间里。
So they show up about 1300.
所以他们出现了大约 1300 人。
The capital of Tenochtitlan, as they called it, is really established.
正如他们所说，特诺奇蒂特兰的首都真正建立了。
And from there, they quickly take over the entire valley.
从那里，他们很快占领了整个山谷。
They make what they call the Triple Alliance, which is the two other big communities of the lake are now their allies, but they’re not really allies.
他们建立了所谓的三重联盟，即湖中的另外两个大社区现在是他们的盟友，但他们并不是真正的盟友。
The Aztecs were brutal.
阿兹特克人是残暴的。
Those guys agreed to shut up and let the Aztecs run the show.
那些家伙同意闭嘴，让阿兹特克人来主持大局。
And then the Aztecs spread like a wildfire all the way down into the Maya area.
然后阿兹特克人像野火一样一路蔓延到玛雅地区。
Everywhere they go, they rename everybody’s towns and make them pay tribute.
无论他们走到哪里，他们都会重新命名每个人的城镇，并让他们表示敬意。
Pretty short lasting civilization.
文明持续时间相当短。
2:17:42 Spread extremely quickly.
传播速度极快。
Famous.
著名的。
What are some defining qualities that explain that?
有哪些定义性的品质可以解释这一点？
I think they were very much like they had an attitude like Attila the Hun.
我认为他们的态度很像匈奴王阿提拉。
2:17:53 They just had no problem ripping your skin off.
他们毫不费力地剥掉你的皮肤。
Everybody else had become too comfortable and too civilized.
其他人都变得太安逸、太文明了。
And the Aztecs were just mercenary.
阿兹特克人只是雇佣兵。
They told everybody, “We can either rip your heart out or you can work for us.
他们告诉所有人：“我们要么掏出你的心，要么你为我们工作。
And if you work for us, you’ll be just fine.” They’d go to every town they’d go to.
如果你为我们工作，那就没问题了。”他们会去他们想去的每一个城镇。
2:18:20 The first thing they’d do is they’d show up with a bunch of merchants.
他们要做的第一件事就是和一群商人一起出现。
There was a merchant class who were also military.
有一个商人阶级同时也是军人。
They were really the people who assessed where they were going to attack next.
他们确实是评估下一步要攻击哪里的人。
They’d go in with a bunch of Aztec products and say, “We’d like to trade with you.” But all the time, they were assessing their military prowess, what products they had that they could take.
他们会带着一堆阿兹特克产品进来并说：“我们想与您进行交易。”但他们一直在评估自己的军事实力，以及他们可以获取哪些产品。
And then soon after the pochteca were there would come the military with the reconnaissance.
警察到达后不久，军队就会过来进行侦察。
So the Aztec had a huge warrior class, as you’re saying.
正如你所说，阿兹特克人有一个庞大的战士阶层。
2:18:51 So can you linger on their whole relationship with war and violence?
那么你能留恋他们与战争和暴力的整个关系吗？
They worshiped a war deity.
他们崇拜战神。
2:19:02 Their main temple was the Templo Mayor.
他们的主要寺庙是大神庙。
It had two temples up on top.
它的顶部有两个寺庙。
One was Tlaloc the Rain God, who liked a lot of sacrifice himself.
其中之一是雨神特拉洛克，他本人喜欢做出很多牺牲。
But then the other one was Huitzilopochtli.
但另一位是维齐洛波奇特利。
That translates “The hummingbird on the left.” But he’s the war god.
这翻译过来就是“左边的蜂鸟”。但他是战神。
I love that he’s a hummingbird.
我喜欢他是一只蜂鸟。
Maybe he’s fast and he comes from the magical side or something.
也许他速度很快，而且他来自神奇的一面或者其他什么。
2:19:32 But then right next to the temple, on either side were the two temples of the warriors.
但就在神庙旁边，两侧是两座武士神庙。
One was the Eagle Warrior clan, the other one was the Jaguar Warrior clan.
一个是鹰武一族，另一个是美洲豹武一族。
And they were symbolically in competition with each other, though a unified force.
尽管它们是统一的力量，但象征性地相互竞争。
I guess probably an analogy between the Navy and the Air Force.
我想这可能是海军和空军之间的类比。
They had a good-natured competition of who was better, but they were the same force.
他们进行了一场善意的竞争，看谁更优秀，但他们是同一支力量。
So those were their symbolic warriors.
所以那些是他们的象征性战士。
2:20:00 Force.
力量。
So those were their symbolic warriors dressed up in all of their finery, and they would come at people with these two forces, and it was very unlike anything that had happened before in Mesoamerica.
所以那些是他们的象征性战士，穿着华丽的衣服，他们会带着这两种力量攻击人们，这与中美洲以前发生的任何事情都非常不同。
Again, I think I could draw a parallel to what happened in Europe.
我想我可以再次与欧洲发生的事情进行比较。
The famous Henry V moment in Agincourt where his kind of ragtag army wipes out half of France’s aristocracy with the Longbow.
亨利五世在阿金库尔的著名时刻，他的乌合之众军队用长弓消灭了法国一半的贵族。
Up until that moment, Europe had a very war is for the elite classes kind of attitude.
在那一刻之前，欧洲对精英阶层抱有一种非常战争的态度。
And then after France lost half their aristocracy, then it was like, maybe we should be hiring from the villages.
然后，在法国失去了一半的贵族之后，我们就觉得，也许我们应该从乡村里招聘人才。
2:20:50 The same sort of thing happened with the Aztec that there was, Mesoamerica really didn’t have huge standing armies, but the Aztec put this army together and they intimidated people.
同样的事情也发生在阿兹特克人身上，中美洲确实没有庞大的常备军，但阿兹特克人把这支军队聚集在一起，他们恐吓人们。
They didn’t actually have to use it a lot.
他们实际上并不需要经常使用它。
It was used to great effect in the valley of Mexico and for the rest of Mesoamerica it was mostly the fear factor.
它在墨西哥山谷中发挥了巨大的作用，而对于中美洲的其他地区来说，它主要是恐惧因素。
But there also seemed to be a celebration of violence.
但似乎也有对暴力的庆祝。
2:21:14 I think you said that beauty and blood went hand in hand for the Aztec, maybe like the Roman Empire, was it, they just had maybe a different relationship with violence, where that stood in the purpose of life, purpose of existence.
我想你说过，对于阿兹特克人来说，美丽和鲜血是齐头并进的，也许就像罗马帝国一样，是吧，他们只是与暴力有着不同的关系，这代表着生命的目的、存在的目的。
Is that fair to say?
这么说公平吗？
I would hypothesize so.
我假设是这样。
2:21:41 I mean, I think it’s one of the wonderful things about studying these ancient cultures, knowing what our human capacity is and the Aztecs, when I said that statement, what I meant by that is they were absolutely comfortable with human sacrifice and ripping people’s hearts out.
我的意思是，我认为研究这些古代文化，了解我们人类的能力是什么，以及阿兹特克人的奇妙之处之一，当我说这句话时，我的意思是，他们对人类牺牲和撕裂人们的心绝对感到满意。
2:22:04 They had this just grotesque, violent bent, but in the same way, they also absolutely loved flower gardens and poetry and music and dance.
他们有这种怪诞、暴力的倾向，但同样，他们也绝对热爱花园、诗歌、音乐和舞蹈。
The same Aztec king who would order the hearts of a thousand people extracted also would stand up at dinner parties to recite his own poetry or the poetry of famous statesmen that had come before him.
这位阿兹特克国王下令抽取一千人的心脏，也会在晚宴上站起来背诵他自己的诗歌或在他之前的著名政治家的诗歌。
And they spent money on things like flower gardens.
他们把钱花在花园之类的东西上。
All of the causeways leading to the Aztec capitol had beautiful flower gardens and they had a museum and they had an aquarium and a zoo, and they had an opera and they had a ballet.
所有通往阿兹特克国会大厦的堤道都有美丽的花园，他们有博物馆，他们有水族馆和动物园，他们有歌剧和芭蕾舞。
And these things existed together.
这些东西同时存在。
There was not, in the Aztec mind, any conflict between witnessing someone’s heart getting ripped out one moment, and in the evening we’d go to the ballet.
在阿兹特克人的心目中，目睹某人的心脏被撕裂和晚上我们去看芭蕾舞之间没有任何冲突。
How does that contrast the relationship with war and violence with the other civilizations of Mesoamerica and South America, maybe the Maya?
这与中美洲和南美洲其他文明（也许是玛雅文明）与战争和暴力的关系有何不同？
2:23:12 What was their relationship like with war?
他们与战争的关系如何？
The Maya were certainly influenced by the Aztec at the end, so we get a skewed perspective from the contact period accounts because the Maya were much more violent and sacrifice-oriented in their post-classic rendition.
玛雅人最终肯定受到了阿兹特克人的影响，所以我们从接触时期的叙述中得到了一个倾斜的视角，因为玛雅人在他们的后古典表演中更加暴力和以牺牲为导向。
2:23:23 But in the classic period, it was mostly the priests and the king who were doing the sacrificing of themselves that we know that the Maya kings would cut their penises and then bleed that blood onto paper and the paper would burn and become the smoke through which they’d commune with their ancestors.
但在古典时期，主要是祭司和国王在进行自我牺牲，我们知道玛雅国王会割断他们的阴茎，然后将血流到纸上，纸会燃烧并变成烟雾，他们通过它们与祖先交流。
2:24:06 But they’d actually tie this paper onto their penis, cut it, and then dance.
但他们实际上会把这张纸绑在他们的阴茎上，剪掉它，然后跳舞。
So the blood splattered, but it was them cutting themselves.
于是鲜血四溅，却是他们割伤了自己。
It was different than killing a bunch of other people for it.
这与为此杀死一群人不同。
It was a auto-sacrifice, we call it.
我们称之为自我牺牲。
Still very macabre, but very different than deciding a whole bunch of other people should die.
仍然非常可怕，但与决定一大群其他人应该死有很大不同。
It was a self-sacrifice thing.
这是一件自我牺牲的事情。
Can you speak to the sacrifice a bit more?
你能多谈谈牺牲吗？
2:24:30 Animal sacrifice, human sacrifice.
动物祭祀，人类祭祀。
What role did that play for the Maya, for the Aztec, for the different cultures here.
这对于玛雅人、阿兹特克人以及这里的不同文化发挥了什么作用？
Was that religious in nature?
这本质上是宗教吗？
It was absolutely religious in nature, and the Aztecs were of the opinion that the war God demanded people were captured and sacrificed and it had to be valuable people.
这绝对是宗教性质的，阿兹特克人认为，战争上帝要求人们被俘虏并牺牲，而且必须是有价值的人。
2:24:42 There was a lot of…
有很多…
before they made that big standing army, they had just ritual battles that they would have and they’d take captives.
在他们组建庞大的常备军之前，他们只是进行仪式性的战斗，然后俘获俘虏。
In fact, all around Mesoamerica, they wanted captives so that they could bring them back and sacrifice them for the gods and the Aztecs deciding to specifically follow the war God, did this more than anybody.
事实上，在中美洲各地，他们都想要俘虏，这样他们就可以把他们带回来并为众神献祭，而决定专门追随战神的阿兹特克人比任何人都做得更多。
They did it so much and so successfully that they didn’t have any enemies nearby.
他们做得如此之多，如此成功，以至于附近没有任何敌人。
2:25:27 So they decided this one poor sucker group, not that far away, called the Tlaxcallans, that they were never going to make peace with them so that they could go close by every year and just have a little symbolic war with the Tlaxcallans and haul them back for a sacrifice.
所以他们决定，这个不远的可怜的傻瓜团体，叫做特拉斯卡兰人，他们永远不会与他们讲和，这样他们就可以每年接近特拉斯卡兰人，与特拉斯卡兰人进行一场象征性的战争，然后把他们拉回来作为牺牲品。
Cortes met those guys and he was like, here are people who hate their guts.
科尔特斯遇到了这些人，他说，这些人讨厌他们的胆量。
I’ll just use these guys.
我就用这些人。
So we say, oh, Cortes took over the Aztec world.
所以我们说，哦，科尔特斯接管了阿兹特克世界。
It was Cortes and 20,000 super pissed-off, Tlaxcallans.
是科尔特斯和两万名超级生气的特拉克斯卡兰人。
And the actual sacrifice, so there would be kind of these ritual battles or is it chopping off people’s heads?
还有实际的牺牲，所以会有一些仪式性的战斗，或者是砍掉人们的头？
2:26:04 Like, is there some interesting rituals around the sacrifice?
比如，围绕祭祀有一些有趣的仪式吗？
It’s mostly heart extraction, sometimes heads, but they bring them up on top of the temple so everybody can see it.
大部分是取出心脏，有时是取出头颅，但他们把它们放在寺庙的顶部，这样每个人都可以看到它。
2:26:15 And they had a specific stone where they would bend them over so their rib cage would come out and they’d use a thick obsidian knife, and they had a really, just, tried and true way to do it.
他们有一块特殊的石头，可以让他们弯曲，这样他们的肋骨就会出来，他们会使用一把厚黑曜石刀，他们有一个真正、公正、经过尝试和真实的方法来做到这一点。
They’d stab it in in a certain place close, and then they’d push down on the sternum as they ripped up on the rib cage.
他们会在附近的某个地方刺入它，然后当他们撕裂胸腔时，他们会向下推胸骨。
So they’d just make a place where they could just rip it right out.
所以他们只是找一个地方可以直接把它撕掉。
With their hand?
用他们的手？
Yeah, with their hand.
是的，用他们的手。
2:26:47 But they were really just surgical about it.
但他们实际上只是在做外科手术。
They’d use a thick obsidian knife where they could just break the ribs right along the sternum and then push the sternum down, pull up and just [inaudible 02:27:00].
他们会使用一把厚黑曜石刀，沿着胸骨直接折断肋骨，然后将胸骨向下推，向上拉，然后[听不清 02:27:00]。
While the person was alive?
当这个人还活着的时候？
Yep.
是的。
2:27:02 While the person was alive.
当这个人还活着的时候。
And the Aztecs had this idea, there was a horrible drought that went on that almost ruined the entire valley, and they came to this conclusion that it’s because we haven’t been killing enough people.
阿兹特克人有这样的想法，发生了一场可怕的干旱，几乎摧毁了整个山谷，他们得出的结论是，这是因为我们没有杀死足够多的人。
We’ve got to bump this up.
我们必须加强这一点。
And then when they did and they decided, they really took it out on the Tlaxcallans, it rained again.
然后当他们这样做并决定时，他们真的把特拉克斯卡兰人发泄了出来，又下雨了。
So it was proof positive that they should just keep doing that.
因此，这证明他们应该继续这样做。
And they ate people as well.
他们也吃人。
They really did.
他们真的做到了。
As part of the sacrifice or?
作为牺牲的一部分还是？
After the sacrifice, then they would eat them.
祭祀结束后，他们就会吃掉它们。
2:27:35 And this was part of the drought and the famine thing that started, but then it was just kind of the thing to do when Cortes got there, they were still having certain special feasts that involved humans and it really upset the Spanish that they would be tricked into eating human.
这是干旱和饥荒开始的一部分，但是当科尔特斯到达那里时，他们仍然在举办某些涉及人类的特殊盛宴，这真的让西班牙人很不安，因为他们会被骗去吃人类。
Like, “Hey, you’re liking dinner?
比如，“嘿，你想吃晚餐吗？
That was a human.”
那是一个人类。”
So the idea, was it actually having a taste for human flesh or is it just these kinds of ideas of if you eat a person’s heart that you can get their spirit and their strength?
那么这个想法到底是真的喜欢吃人肉还是只是这样的想法，如果你吃了一个人的心，你就可以得到他们的精神和力量？
In the case of the Aztecs, it seemed like they just liked it.
就阿兹特克人而言，他们似乎就是喜欢这样。
2:28:14 This guy, Sahagun, who was a very responsible chronicler, that was pretty specific, that there was a distribution thing.
这个人，萨哈贡，是一位非常负责任的编年史家，他说得很具体，有一个分配的事情。
The elites got butts.
精英们有屁股。
The butts were the best part, so the butt cheeks, those are the best parts to eat.
屁股是最好吃的部分，所以屁股脸颊是最好吃的部分。
And then it went down the chain until some people just got fingers and toes.
然后它沿着链条向下延伸，直到一些人只得到手指和脚趾。
Literally bought taste for the Aztec.
确实是为阿兹特克人买来的品味。
2:28:40 Boy.
男生。
All right.
好的。
They really did.
他们真的做到了。
2:28:45 They really did.
他们真的做到了。
In fact, that’s what caused the, have you heard of the Noche Triste?
事实上，这就是造成的原因，你听说过“Noche Triste”吗？
The sad night?
悲伤的夜晚？
The night that the Aztecs really go nuts on the Spanish and kick them out.
那天晚上，阿兹特克人真的对西班牙人发疯了，把他们赶了出去。
It’s all triggered by this one guy, Pedro de Alvarado, who’s left in charge by Cortes.
这一切都是由科尔特斯留下的佩德罗·德·阿尔瓦拉多这个人引发的。
As Cortes goes to the coast and tries to talk to the New Force, talk him into being for him, which he does.
当科尔特斯前往海岸并试图与新力量交谈时，说服他为他而存在，他做到了。
2:29:14 But Pedro Alvarado is left back in town in charge and they’re doing another one of these huge Aztec buffets and parties to honor them.
但佩德罗·阿尔瓦拉多（Pedro Alvarado）留在城里负责，他们正在举办另一场大型阿兹特克自助餐和派对来纪念他们。
And it happens.
它发生了。
The guy says, “Hey, do you like dinner?” Like, oh yeah, it’s a nice dinner.
那人说：“嘿，你喜欢吃晚饭吗？”就像，哦，是的，这是一顿美味的晚餐。
“Well, it’s humans.
“嗯，是人类。
You’re eating humans.
你正在吃人类。
See, I told you they were good.” And Alvarado just freaks out and he has the guards close the doors and he murders everyone in the party.
看，我告诉过你他们很好。”阿尔瓦拉多吓坏了，他让警卫关上门，然后谋杀了聚会中的所有人。
Women, children, nobody has weapons.
妇女、儿童，没有人拥有武器。
He just murders everyone.
他只是谋杀所有人。
2:29:49 And that’s what spazzes the Aztecs out to eventually murder Montezuma who was their captive and then try to murder all of them.
这就是让阿兹特克人最终谋杀了他们的俘虏蒙特祖玛，然后试图谋杀所有人的原因。
And it was all Pedro Alvarado’s fault for freaking out about eating humans.
这都是佩德罗·阿尔瓦拉多的错，因为他对吃人感到恐惧。
Just a little practical joke.
只是一个小小的恶作剧。
Yeah.
是的。
2:30:06 It was just, they thought it was funny.
只是，他们觉得这很有趣。
He did not.
他没有。
That’s fascinating.
这很有趣。
2:30:09 I didn’t realize.
我没有意识到。
So I kind of assume that some level of cannibalism would have to do with eating the heart to gain the spirit of the person or something like this, but.
所以我有点认为某种程度的同类相食与吃人的心以获得人的精神或类似的东西有关，但是。
In certain deer hunting rituals, things for sure.
在某些猎鹿仪式中，这是肯定的。
2:30:19 But the Aztecs, no, they just liked eating humans.
但阿兹特克人，不，他们只是喜欢吃人。
It was part of the fear factor too.
这也是恐惧因素的一部分。
I mean, they could walk into a new town and be like, you guys could either send us a number of quetzal feathers every month or we could eat you.
我的意思是，他们可以走进一个新城镇，然后说，你们要么每个月给我们寄一些绿咬鹃羽毛，要么我们可以吃掉你们。
So that’s psychological warfare and actual warfare.
这就是心理战和实际战。
2:30:36 It worked and that’s how they spread quickly.
它奏效了，这就是它们快速传播的方式。
And they were just about to take over the Maya when the Spanish came and messed everything up, they had the Maya surrounded and they were about to take over the whole Yucatan.
当他们正要接管玛雅人时，西班牙人来了，把一切搞砸了，他们包围了玛雅人，他们即将接管整个尤卡坦半岛。
So you think without the Spanish, there would be this Aztec empire that would last for a very long time.
所以你认为如果没有西班牙人，阿兹特克帝国将会持续很长时间。
I think there would’ve been an Aztec empire.
我认为会有一个阿兹特克帝国。
2:30:59 I think they would’ve finished dominating everybody, but they did it through hate and everybody hated the Aztecs.
我认为他们本可以统治所有人，但他们是通过仇恨做到这一点的，每个人都讨厌阿兹特克人。
[inaudible 02:31:09].
[听不清 02:31:09]。
So it wouldn’t have lasted forever.
所以它不会永远持续下去。
2:31:09 They were not ruling justly.
他们的裁决并不公正。
They were ruling by force.
他们以武力统治。
And that can only go on so long before revolution happens.
而这种情况只能在革命发生之前持续很长时间。
The Inca Empire, I think that would’ve gone on forever.
印加帝国，我认为这会永远持续下去。
Because they were really community oriented.
因为他们确实以社区为导向。
Once the Inca took over, no one in the Inca Empire starved, they built architecture.
印加人接管后，印加帝国没有人挨饿，他们建造了建筑。
Everyone was safe.
每个人都很安全。
It was the society that could have lasted a long time.
这样的社会才能长久。
What was the origin of the Inca Empire?
印加帝国的起源是什么？
Well, it was bloody at first.
嗯，一开始就很血腥。
2:31:41 Like most of them are, but once they started taking over, what they did is they Empire built.
就像他们中的大多数人一样，但一旦他们开始接管，他们所做的就是建立帝国。
Everybody else had just raided their neighbors to get the resources, but everybody they raided, they turned them into the Inca Empire and they created this incredible Mit’a system where you took turns working and they created the road system so they could get groups of workers back and forth.
其他人只是为了获取资源而袭击了他们的邻居，但他们袭击的每个人，他们都把他们变成了印加帝国，他们创造了这个令人难以置信的米塔系统，你可以轮流工作，他们创造了道路系统，这样他们就可以让一群工人来回。
So a town of let’s say 5,000 people, the Inca would roll up with an army of a hundred, 200,000 people and say, would you guys like to be part of the empire?
假设一个城镇有 5,000 人，印加人会召集一支 100、200,000 人的军队，并说，你们愿意成为帝国的一部分吗？
Or would you like us to escort you to the edge of the empire?
或者你希望我们护送你到帝国的边缘？
2:32:25 And if your mayor here agrees, then he can have a town.
如果你们这里的市长同意，那么他就可以拥有一座城镇。
He can have a house in Cusco.
他可以在库斯科有一所房子。
But then the very next month, a big work crew would show up and they’d start building agricultural terraces and storage units.
但就在下个月，一大群工作人员就会出现，他们开始建造农业梯田和储藏室。
And every month with the agricultural excess, they would have big parties and everybody would eat.
每个月，由于农业过剩，他们都会举办大型聚会，每个人都会吃饭。
So people lived well in the Inca Empire.
所以印加帝国的人们生活得很好。
It was a rough beginning, but everybody who agreed to be part of it immediately had access to a whole bunch of resources and security they never had.
这是一个艰难的开始，但每个同意参与其中的人都可以立即获得他们从未拥有过的大量资源和安全保障。
So they started in South America and Peru and Cusco.
所以他们从南美、秘鲁和库斯科开始。
2:33:01 Cusco was the center of it.
库斯科是它的中心。
Cusco in their language, Quechua, it means navel or belly button, and it’s up in the mountains, but there’s four quarters that they called their empire Tawantinsuyu, the land of four quarters.
库斯科在他们的语言克丘亚语中，意思是肚脐或肚脐，它在山上，但有四个季度，他们称之为他们的帝国塔万丁苏尤，四个季度的土地。
2:33:07 And the center of those four quarters was Cusco.
这四个区的中心是库斯科。
It sprung to life in 1200 A.D.C.
它于公元 1200 年诞生。
We backwards project what it was, but it was probably mid-twelve hundreds when the first Sapa Inca, the first ruler came in, but it was the, I think it’s the ninth one, [inaudible 02:33:45] Pachacuti who really started being an empire builder.
我们向后预测它是什么，但是当第一个萨帕印加人，第一个统治者到来时，可能是十二世纪中期，但我认为这是第九个，[听不清 02:33:45] 帕查库蒂真正开始成为帝国的缔造者。
Part of that, what really defined the empire, as you said, roads, they build a massive road network.
正如你所说，真正定义帝国的一部分是道路，他们建立了一个庞大的道路网络。
Roads, and in the same way that the Roman strategy of building roads and infrastructure, and then every place they took over, they’d create certain key pieces of Roman architecture that kind of made that city Roman and they’d rename it something.
道路，就像罗马人修建道路和基础设施的战略一样，然后他们占领的每一个地方，他们都会创造罗马建筑的某些关键部分，使这座城市成为罗马，他们会给它重新命名。
2:33:58 The Inca did the same thing.
印加人也做了同样的事情。
They had certain signature Inca architecture that they would build in as the administrative part.
他们拥有某些标志性的印加建筑，并将其作为行政部分。
2:34:27 They’d send the Khipukamayuq, the guys who would weave or knot the khipus as accountants, and they would go through and say what everybody did.
他们会派出奇普卡马尤克（Khipukamayuq），即那些会编织或打结奇普斯的会计师，他们会仔细检查并说出每个人都做了什么。
Okay, you’re a good farmer.
好吧，你是一个好农民。
You’re going to farm.
你要去务农。
You are a good weaver.
你是一位优秀的织布工。
You’re going to weave.
你要编织。
All the men here are going to take a turn at being part of the army.
这里所有的人都将轮流成为军队的一部分。
And then they sent independent Khipukamayuqs too.
然后他们也派出了独立的奇普卡马尤克人。
Every community had five or six that were not allowed to work with each other, and they all had to independently send their Khipus back to Cusco.
每个社区都有五六个不允许相互合作的人，他们都必须独立地将他们的Khipus送回库斯科。
And if there were accounting discrepancies that were called to Cusco to figure out who was lying about what.
如果存在会计差异，我们就会被召集到库斯科，以查明谁在哪些方面撒了谎。
So there’s a super sophisticated record-keeping system.
所以有一个超级复杂的记录保存系统。
Yeah.
是的。
2:35:10 And that was the Khipu and the Spanish recorded what they could and then burned them all.
这就是奇普人和西班牙人记录了他们能记录的一切，然后将它们全部烧毁。
But that’s an interesting development for an empire because that allows you to really expand and have some kind of management, some level of control.
但这对于一个帝国来说是一个有趣的发展，因为这可以让你真正扩张并拥有某种管理和某种程度的控制。
They couldn’t, at the end, they were at least 10 million people and there was just no way to do that without some sort of sophisticated record-keeping system.
他们做不到，最终，他们至少有 1000 万人，如果没有某种复杂的记录保存系统，就没有办法做到这一点。
If the Inca had to face Aztec, who wins?
如果印加人必须面对阿兹特克人，谁会获胜？
Inca.
印加。
Inca.
印加。
I mean, the Aztecs were psychotic, but the Inca had just reserves for miles and they had that essential hearts and minds.
我的意思是，阿兹特克人是精神病患者，但印加人只有几英里的储备，而且他们有必要的心灵和思想。
2:35:41 There was only one thing that everybody got pissed off about when they joined the Inca Empire.
当他们加入印加帝国时，只有一件事让每个人都感到愤怒。
For some reason, everything was owned communally except the llamas.
由于某种原因，除了美洲驼之外，所有东西都是公共所有。
The llamas were the kings.
美洲驼是国王。
And so that was the one thing that some of them would stay in town just to be work llamas, but you don’t own your llama anymore.
所以这是一件事，他们中的一些人会留在城里只是为了工作骆驼，但你不再拥有你的骆驼了。
And people are really attached to their llamas.
人们真的很依恋他们的美洲驼。
To this day they are like family members.
直到今天，他们就像家人一样。
So it’d be like everybody walked in and said, everybody’s family dog is now mine.
所以就像每个人走进来说，每个人家里的狗现在都是我的了。
[inaudible 02:36:23] really upset people on an emotional level.
[听不清 02:36:23] 在情感层面上确实让人心烦意乱。
Well, I mean, so llamas got domesticated at some point, probably.
嗯，我的意思是，美洲驼可能在某个时候被驯化了。
2:36:25 I don’t even know when, but early on.
我什至不知道什么时候，但很早。
We have rock art that progresses to make it seem like a progression from people depicted hunting them to people depicted standing next to pregnant ones.
我们的岩石艺术不断发展，看起来像是从描绘狩猎它们的人到描绘站在怀孕的人旁边的人。
2:36:35 So it was still in that archaic period at least that they became friends.
所以至少在那个古老的时期他们才成为朋友。
But if you roll in and you own them, that’s?
但如果你投入并拥有它们，那是什么呢？
Yeah, that pissed everybody off.
是啊，这惹恼了所有人。
2:36:55 For some reason, the Inca owned everybody’s llama instantly, and he would take anything he wanted.
出于某种原因，印加人立即拥有了每个人的美洲驼，并且他会拿走他想要的任何东西。
A lot of them would just get carted away that day, just sent to Cusco.
他们中的很多人那天就会被运走，直接送到库斯科。
And they’d also take their mummies.
他们还会带走他们的木乃伊。
That was a weird thing.
这是一件很奇怪的事情。
Everybody mourns, they’re dead, but the Inca just ceased to accept it.
每个人都在哀悼，他们死了，但印加人却不再接受这一点。
They would just, the mummies were still there.
他们只是想，木乃伊还在那里。
Okay, he’s dead, but look, he’s still got clothes.
好吧，他死了，但是看，他还有衣服。
He’s at the party.
他在聚会上。
Let’s put a beer in front of him.
我们在他面前放一杯啤酒吧。
They just kept people as mummies.
他们只是把人当作木乃伊。
And so the ancestral mummies of every town, part of being absorbed into the empire was, okay, your most important mummies are now going to have their own beautiful house in Cusco, but they would physically bring those mummies to Cusco to make now Cusco the spiritual heart of their belief system.
因此，每个城镇的祖先木乃伊，被吸收到帝国的一部分是，好吧，你们最重要的木乃伊现在将在库斯科拥有自己美丽的房子，但他们会将这些木乃伊带到库斯科，使库斯科现在成为他们信仰体系的精神核心。
I mean, I could see how that would piss people off, but it’s also a pretty powerful way to say, the ancestors that you idolize, that you respect are now in the capitol.
我的意思是，我知道这会激怒人们，但这也是一种非常有力的方式，可以说，你崇拜的、你尊敬的祖先现在就在国会大厦里。
They’ve been elevated.
他们已经被提升了。
2:38:03 We didn’t steal them.
我们没有偷它们。
We have given them a new place of honor, and you’re welcome to come visit them all the time.
我们给了他们一个新的荣耀之地，欢迎您常来拜访他们。
And they did.
他们做到了。
They have these festivals where everyone from all corners of the Inca world would come to Cusco.
他们举办这些节日，来自印加世界各个角落的每个人都会来到库斯科。
And which of the civilizations mummified people?
哪个文明将人制成木乃伊？
The Incas for sure mummified people and even did some of that kind of Egyptian- esque taking out of organs and preparing the body.
印加人肯定会将人制成木乃伊，甚至进行一些埃及式的取出器官并准备尸体的做法。
2:38:22 They put straw inside the cavity and mummify them, but the Maya didn’t do it at all.
他们将稻草放入洞中并将其制成木乃伊，但玛雅人根本没有这样做。
The Maya, in fact, on purpose would flood tombs with water so that the skin would float off the skeletons faster, and then they’d get back in there.
事实上，玛雅人故意在坟墓里注满水，这样皮肤就能更快地从骷髅上漂浮下来，然后他们就会回到那里。
It was jungly.
丛林密布。
So I think the bugs probably had part of it too.
所以我认为错误也可能有一部分。
But then they would get back in there to get the bones.
但随后他们会回到那里去取骨头。
They’d open it back up and take the bones out and paint them with red Cinnabar, the one that I was in, in Copan, we had evidence that they had gone in there four different times, and the last couple times they only took the skull out and repainted it and then put it back in articulated on the skeleton.
他们会把它打开，把骨头拿出来，用红色朱砂涂上它们，我在科潘的那个，我们有证据表明他们已经进去过四次了，最后几次他们只是把头骨拿出来重新粉刷，然后把它放回去，铰接在骨架上。
But they didn’t mummify.
但他们并没有木乃伊化。
They on purpose would grossly float the bodies so they could get the skin off faster and get to the bones.
他们故意让尸体漂浮起来，这样他们就可以更快地剥掉皮肤并到达骨头。
But would they keep the bones?
但他们会保留骨头吗？
Yeah, they’d keep the bones and they’d pull the bones out occasionally and do rituals to them or commune with them and then put them back in.
是的，他们会保留骨头，偶尔把骨头拔出来，对它们进行仪式或与它们交流，然后再把它们放回去。
So there’s still a deep connection to the ancestors through the physical manifestation of the ancestors then, whether mummified or bone.
因此，通过祖先的身体表现，无论是木乃伊还是骨头，仍然与祖先有着深厚的联系。
And to this day, if you do an excavation here in the United States, Native American people don’t like it.
直到今天，如果你在美国这里进行挖掘，美洲原住民并不喜欢它。
2:39:47 They don’t like their graves, which is fine enough.
他们不喜欢自己的坟墓，但这已经足够了。
I wouldn’t want somebody digging up my grandma either.
我也不希望有人挖出我的祖母。
But the Maya, they love it.
但玛雅人却很喜欢它。
They love it.
他们喜欢它。
And every Maya person, if we find a grave, they’re like, yeah, look at that.
每个玛雅人，如果我们找到坟墓，他们都会说，是的，看看那个。
2:40:02 Bones, cool.
骨头，酷。
Can I touch?
我可以摸吗？
They’re not spooked about it at all.
他们对此一点也不感到害怕。
They think it’s exciting.
他们认为这很令人兴奋。
I, one time, helped out a physical anthropologist in town in Copan to get a osteology collection together of various animals.
有一次，我帮助科潘镇的一位体质人类学家收集了各种动物的骨学收藏。
So if we got bones from an excavation, we could see what kind of animal it was based on the collection.
因此，如果我们从挖掘中获得骨头，我们可以根据收集的信息了解它是哪种动物。
And this family said, well, our family dog died last year and we buried him in the backyard.
这家人说，好吧，我们家的狗去年死了，我们把他埋在后院。
You could go dig him up.
你可以去把他挖出来。
And so we were like, okay, yeah, I mean, we do need a dog.
所以我们就想，好吧，是的，我的意思是，我们确实需要一只狗。
2:40:44 We’ll go dig up your dog.
我们会去挖你的狗。
And they were like, but the kids really want to help you.
他们说，但孩子们真的很想帮助你。
So their kids came out and this was like their puppy, and it died less than a year ago.
所以他们的孩子出来了，这就像他们的小狗，不到一年前就死了。
When we got to it, one of them just grabbed up a bone and he was like, [inaudible 02:40:59] like little bitty bones.
当我们到达时，其中一个人抓起了一根骨头，他就像，[听不清 02:40:59] 就像小骨头一样。
Yay.
耶。
What a weird attitude.
多么奇怪的态度啊。
That’s your dead dog there.
那是你的死狗。
But they have a different relationship with the dead.
但他们与死者有着不同的关系。
In some sense that’s a beautiful attitude, right?
从某种意义上说，这是一种美好的态度，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
Why pretend like we’re not mortal and this is just the process of it.
为什么要假装我们不是凡人，这只是它的过程。
2:41:11 And as you say it now, it kind of will be cool.
正如你现在所说，这会很酷。
That’s what Day of the Dead is all about.
这就是亡灵节的意义所在。
2:41:21 And I love Day of the Dead.
我喜欢亡灵节。
Halloween’s this creepy thing where they’re all monsters, but Day of the Dead is this beautiful time where we remember our ancestors.
万圣节是一件令人毛骨悚然的事情，他们都是怪物，但亡灵节是我们纪念祖先的美好时刻。
I convinced my kids after the movie Coco came out.
电影《寻梦环游记》上映后，我说服了我的孩子们。
Now we have an altar with all of our great-grandparents on the altar, and we talk about who they were and how they lived, and we put things on the altar that mattered in their life, and we remember them on that day and it turned something that was a weird eat too much candy and wear a monster mask thing into something beautiful where we discuss where we came from.
现在我们有一个祭坛，祭坛上有我们所有的曾祖父母，我们谈论他们是谁，他们如何生活，我们把他们生命中重要的东西放在祭坛上，我们在那天记住他们，这把吃太多糖果和戴怪物面具的奇怪事情变成了美丽的事情，我们讨论我们来自哪里。
I have to ask about the giant stones the Inca has been able to somehow move and fit together perfectly.
我不得不问印加人能够以某种方式移动并完美地组合在一起的巨石。
2:41:57 Do you understand?
你明白吗？
Is it understood how they were able to do that so well?
是否理解他们如何能够做得这么好？
No.
不。
2:42:13 The moving of it, I think that we have reasonable theories.
对于它的感动，我认为我们有合理的理论。
There are ways to pivot large weights.
有多种方法可以转动大重量。
There’s a great guy named Wally Wallington, a retired contractor here in the US who built Stonehenge in his backyard in Minnesota, single-handedly showing how you can move big stones.
有一位名叫沃利·沃林顿（Wally Wallington）的伟人，他是美国的一名退休承包商，他在明尼苏达州的后院建造了巨石阵，单枪匹马地展示了如何移动大石头。
So I think Wally’s already figured out how to move them.
所以我认为沃利已经想出了如何移动它们。
It’s the perfectly fit so carefully fit together that you couldn’t even put a dime in between the stones.
这是完美的配合，如此仔细地配合在一起，你甚至不能在石头之间放一毛钱。
That’s the one that I think still has people baffled.
我认为这仍然让人们感到困惑。
The common archeological wisdom that you’d find out of a textbook is that they just kept pecking away at it with hammer stones and setting them and resetting them until they were perfect, which has to be bullshit, that there is no way that they just were that meticulous.
你从教科书中发现的常见考古智慧是，他们只是不断地用锤子啄石，放置并重置它们，直到它们完美为止，这一定是胡说八道，他们不可能那么细致。
I mean, everybody’s got a hammerstone.
我的意思是，每个人都有一块锤石。
I personally think it’s acids.
我个人认为是酸。
2:43:23 I think they melted them together.
我认为他们把它们融化在一起了。
And there are weird places when you really look at closely to these stones, which I’ve done a number of times.
当你仔细观察这些石头时，会发现一些奇怪的地方，我已经做过很多次了。
I’m going back next month to Machu Picchu and especially Cusco.
下个月我要回到马丘比丘，特别是库斯科。
I walk around in the alleys where these 500 to a thousand-year-old walls are still there.
我在小巷里走来走去，这些有五百到一千年历史的城墙仍然在那里。
And I see things like the crystals in the andesite are almost stitched together along the seams.
我看到安山岩中的晶体几乎沿着接缝缝合在一起。
The andesite around it is melted and the crystals haven’t.
它周围的安山岩已经融化，而晶体却没有。
And there are other places where there are weird wipes on the wall.
还有其他地方的墙上也有奇怪的抹布。
It’s just melted.
它刚刚融化了。
Like somebody took a rag and wiped it while it was soft.
就像有人拿起一块抹布，趁它还软的时候擦拭它。
Lots of talk about soft stones turning hard too.
很多人都在谈论软石也会变硬。
I haven’t been able to prove it.
我还无法证明这一点。
This is one of these end of my archeological career chapters.
这是我考古生涯的最后章节之一。
I’m either going to prove myself wrong or prove it, but I think they used acids.
我要么证明自己错了，要么证明这一点，但我认为他们使用了酸。
My dad’s a chemist and he told me a long time ago that there’s no way, there’s no naturally occurring acids.
我父亲是一名化学家，他很久以前就告诉我，不可能，没有天然存在的酸。
But my current theory, actually, I got the idea initially from the show Breaking Bad.
但我目前的理论，实际上，我最初是从《绝命毒师》节目中得到这个想法的。
2:44:44 I don’t know if you ever saw that show, but there’s a point in which they’re trying to dissolve a body and they’re using hydrofluoric acid and it goes right through the ceiling.
我不知道你是否看过那个节目，但有一个点，他们试图溶解尸体，他们使用氢氟酸，它直接穿过天花板。
That hydrofluoric acid is so fascinating.
氢氟酸太神奇了。
It won’t go through plastic, and you can also bring it in inert parts and then combine it.
它不会穿过塑料，你也可以将它放入惰性部件中，然后将其组合起来。
The Inca made tons of jewelry out of fluorite.
印加人用萤石制作了大量的珠宝。
Fluorite is big in the Andes, and they also mined a lot of things for gold and silver.
安第斯山脉的萤石矿很大，他们还开采了很多金银的东西。
And the byproduct of that mining is sulfuric acid.
采矿的副产品是硫酸。
2:45:23 You put sulfuric acid and fluorite together and it’s hydrofluoric acid, and that will burn through andesite or anything.
你把硫酸和萤石放在一起，它就是氢氟酸，它会燃烧安山岩或任何东西。
And if you learned how to do it judiciously and you didn’t care whether servants lost an arm or two, then you could actually use them to fuse these together.
如果你学会了如何明智地做到这一点并且你不在乎仆人是否失去一两条手臂，那么你实际上可以用它们将它们融合在一起。
And I think they’re fused together.
我认为它们融合在一起了。
I asked the city of Cusco if I could take some core samples, and they said, go away, gringo.
我问库斯科市是否可以采集一些核心样本，他们说，走开，外国佬。
Don’t touch our walls.
不要碰我们的墙。
So actually this next time I’m going to go try to talk to the more Quechua authorities in a place called Ollantaytambo and maybe I can convince them, but right now, they just think I’m a weird-ass gringo who wants to put holes in their walls.
所以实际上，下次我要去尝试与一个叫奥扬泰坦博的地方的更多盖丘亚语当局交谈，也许我可以说服他们，但现在，他们只是认为我是一个想在他们的墙上打洞的奇怪的外国佬。
That’s a fascinating theory.
这是一个有趣的理论。
2:46:15 And so how could you get to the bottom of that?
那么你怎样才能弄清真相呢？
So getting core samples to see if there’s some kind of trace.
因此，获取岩心样本，看看是否存在某种痕迹。
Chemists I’m working with say that if there was hydrofluoric acid in between these, that a core sample right along the seam, they can separate out the elements in there and detect whether there was actually elements of hydrofluoric acid.
与我合作的化学家说，如果它们之间存在氢氟酸，即沿着接缝的岩芯样本，他们可以分离出其中的元素并检测是否确实存在氢氟酸元素。
2:46:24 I wanted to go straight to burning rocks, but they were like, no, I mean we already know that’s true.
我想直接去燃烧岩石，但他们说，不，我的意思是我们已经知道这是真的。
I mean, yeah, we can burn some rocks, but it would happen.
我的意思是，是的，我们可以烧一些石头，但它会发生。
And that’s just chemistry.
这只是化学反应。
We got to prove that it would happen in the walls.
我们必须证明这会发生在墙上。
So go get us samples.
所以去给我们拿样品吧。
And that was before COVID and all sorts.
那是在新冠疫情和其他各种事情发生之前。
You know how it is, you probably are the same guy where you’ve got a thousand ideas and the ones that are fruitful, you run with and the other ones you’ll get back to.
你知道这是怎么回事，你可能是同一个人，你有一千个想法，其中一些是富有成果的，你可以运行，而其他的你会回过头来。
That’d be fascinating if true, and I hope you do show that it’s true or follow, either one.
如果这是真的，那就太有趣了，我希望你能证明这是真的，或者遵循，要么。
I’ll try to disprove it.
我会尝试反驳它。
Disprove it.
反驳它。
2:47:14 Yeah.
是的。
I wonder if we discount how much amazing stuff a collection of humans can do, because it just feels like if a large number of humans are just working a little bit chipping away at stuff.
我想知道我们是否低估了一群人类可以做多少令人惊奇的事情，因为感觉就像大量的人类只是在一点点地努力工作。
At scale, they can do miraculous things.
从规模上看，他们可以创造奇迹。
So the question is, how can a large number of humans be motivated to do a thing?
那么问题来了，如何才能激励大量的人去做一件事呢？
When we think about Stonehenge, some very challenging architectural construction, we don’t think about a large number of humans working together.
当我们想到巨石阵这种非常具有挑战性的建筑结构时，我们不会想到大量的人类一起工作。
Well, that large number of humans are motivated to work together by a small number of administrators who are dynamic and convincing in some way or another.
嗯，大量的人是由少数管理员激励起来一起工作的，这些管理员在某种程度上充满活力和令人信服。
Right.
正确的。
One of my favorite quotes is, and I’m probably going to misquote it here, but I think it’s Margaret Mead who said, never underestimate the power of small groups working together.
我最喜欢的名言之一是，我可能会在这里错误地引用它，但我认为玛格丽特·米德说过，永远不要低估小团体合作的力量。
2:48:04 And the truth is that those are the only people that have ever changed the world.
事实是，只有这些人改变了世界。
That small dedicated groups of people are what changed the world, and they inspire big groups of people to embrace their vision.
这些专注的小团体改变了世界，他们激励一大群人拥抱他们的愿景。
Yeah, I think we sometimes underestimate how much humans can do across time and across scale.
是的，我认为我们有时会低估人类在不同时间和不同规模上能做的事情。
And we are way less capable than we used to be.
而且我们的能力比以前差了很多。
2:48:37 I mean, the average human had all sorts of skills that at least I personally do not.
我的意思是，普通人拥有各种技能，至少我个人不具备。
I’m wearing a shirt, but I can’t make a shirt.
我穿着衬衫，但我不会做衬衫。
That’s for somebody else to do.
那是别人要做的事。
You’ve also lectured, which I really enjoyed, about North America.
你还讲过有关北美的讲座，我非常喜欢。
2:48:53 And also helped teach me that there was a lot more complex societies going on here for a long period of time.
这也让我了解到，这里长期存在着更加复杂的社会。
So maybe can we start at the beginning?
那么也许我们可以从头开始吗？
Who were the early humans in North America?
谁是北美的早期人类？
Well, we go through that paleo Indian and archaic period for thousands of years.
好吧，我们经历了古印度和古代时期数千年。
2:49:15 As we started this conversation, probably 30,000 years is a conservative now, humans first entered the Americas, but the first cultures we get here are mound-builders around the Mississippi and to the east, and then also a totally separate group in what we call the American Southwest now, the four Corners, who will develop into mostly the people we call the Pueblo people who are still there today, like Zuni and Hopi people.
当我们开始这次谈话时，现在可能是保守的30,000年，人类首先进入美洲，但我们到达这里的第一个文化是密西西比河周围和东部的土墩建造者，然后是我们现在所说的美国西南部的一个完全独立的群体，即四个角落，他们将发展成为我们今天仍然在那里的普韦布洛人，如祖尼人和霍皮人。
2:49:54 So we’ve got these two clusters.
所以我们有这两个集群。
The very first major community in North America is in the most unlikely place.
北美第一个主要社区位于最不可能的地方。
It’s in Northern Louisiana.
它位于路易斯安那州北部。
People think I’m crazy when I say this, but there is a pyramid in Northern Louisiana, a big one at a site called Poverty Point that is 3,500 years old.
当我这么说时，人们认为我疯了，但在路易斯安那州北部有一座金字塔，一座很大的金字塔，位于一个名为 Poverty Point 的地方，已有 3,500 年的历史。
So it’s the same age as the pyramids in Egypt, and it is a giant thing just poking out of the bayous of Louisiana.
所以它与埃及金字塔的年龄相同，是一个刚刚从路易斯安那州海湾中伸出的巨大物体。
And people don’t believe me when I say it, but it’s there.
当我这么说时，人们不相信我，但它就在那里。
The Mound Builders, what was that society like in comparison to everything else we’ve been talking about in Mesoamerica [inaudible 02:50:41].
土丘建造者，与我们在中美洲谈论的其他一切相比，那个社会是什么样的[听不清 02:50:41]。
They evolved over thousands of years.
它们进化了数千年。
2:50:40 We call them Mound Builders.
我们称他们为土墩建造者。
This is something I object to.
这是我所反对的。
I think we should have a better…
我认为我们应该有一个更好的……
We do.
我们做到了。
The last version of them, we call them Mississippians now.
他们的最后一个版本，我们现在称他们为密西西比人。
But generally speaking, we call all these guys Mound Builders, but what they built were pyramids.
但一般来说，我们称这些人为土墩建造者，但他们建造的是金字塔。
They look like mounds now, and they didn’t build them out of stone.
它们现在看起来就像土堆，而且不是用石头建造的。
That’s kind of our just inherent western bias.
这是我们固有的西方偏见。
Something that’s built out of stone is sophisticated, and something that’s built out of dirt is rudimentary.
用石头建造的东西是复杂的，用泥土建造的东西是简陋的。
2:51:14 But in their full living form, they did have cores of dirt, but then they also had kind of clay caps.
但在它们完整的生命形式中，它们确实有泥土的核心，但它们也有某种粘土盖。
So they had terraces.
所以他们有露台。
They had whole complexes of buildings up on top.
他们在顶部有完整的建筑群。
There were kings that lived up there.
那里住着国王。
There’s the biggest of the Mississippian cities is called Cahokia, and it’s right outside of St. Louis.
密西西比最大的城市叫卡霍基亚，位于圣路易斯郊外。
2:51:40 And it was huge.
而且它很大。
It had a population of 20,000 people and pyramids all over the place, a huge palisade wall around it.
它有两万人口，金字塔遍布，周围有巨大的栅栏墙。
It was absolutely gigantic, a thriving metropolis.
这绝对是一个巨大的、繁荣的大都市。
And we in America have kind of a collective amnesia.
我们美国人有一种集体失忆症。
We never hear about these massive civilizations.
我们从未听说过这些巨大的文明。
Cahokia was the big first city, but then it spread from the Mississippi all the way to the Atlantic.
卡霍基亚是第一个大城市，但后来它从密西西比河一直蔓延到大西洋。
There were hundreds and hundreds of these big cities that had five to 10,000 people each.
这样的大城市有成百上千个，每个城市有五到一万人。
Were they their own thing or was there some kind of thread connecting all of them.
它们是它们自己的东西还是有某种线索连接着它们。
They had a unified religion and culture.
他们有统一的宗教和文化。
2:52:23 They were, again, not an empire.
再说一次，他们不是一个帝国。
So they were warring city-states.
所以他们是交战的城邦。
There were kind of territories that were owned by big kings, and then the cities around them were kind of the subsidiary lords and kings.
有些领土属于大国王，而周围的城市则属于小领主和国王。
And then one kingdom could either ally with a neighbor or have a fight.
然后一个王国可以与邻国结盟或发生战争。
So they were kind of countries, I think for, yeah, we could safely say they were different countries within this patchwork that was Eastern United States.
所以我认为它们是一些国家，是的，我们可以有把握地说它们是美国东部这个拼凑而成的不同国家。
And it’s so weird that we don’t know this because it was clearly documented by the Spanish.
奇怪的是我们不知道这一点，因为西班牙人清楚地记录了这一点。
2:53:09 I’m not talking about just archeology.
我谈论的不仅仅是考古学。
We find him in archeology now.
我们现在在考古学中找到了他。
But Hernando de Soto landed in Florida and went for three years from, he went up into the Carolinas and over down into Alabama and Louisiana, and he’s the first one to see the Mississippi up there.
但埃尔南多·德索托在佛罗里达登陆，三年后，他北上卡罗来纳州，南下到达阿拉巴马州和路易斯安那州，他是第一个在那里看到密西西比河的人。
But for three years he went through city after city after city, unfortunately decimating them, eating all their corn, giving them diseases.
但三年来，他走过一个又一个城市，不幸地摧毁了他们，吃掉了他们所有的玉米，给他们带来了疾病。
But the documentation’s clearly there.
但文档显然在那里。
He met collectively, millions of people in a very sophisticated and uniform civilization.
他在一个非常复杂和统一的文明中聚集了数百万人。
So it’s disease and stealing of resources.
所以这是疾病和资源盗窃。
2:53:51 But was there explicit murdering going on?
但是否存在明显的谋杀行为？
Unfortunately, yeah.
不幸的是，是的。
2:54:00 He was a murderer and a psycho and a liar.
他是一个杀人犯、一个神经病和一个骗子。
He snowed them that he was some kind of deity.
他向他们撒谎说他是某种神。
Actually learned a trick from the Inca who he was with Pizarro in his first run and went back to Spain, was rich, had a wife, a castle.
事实上，他从印加人那里学到了一个技巧，他在第一次竞选时就和皮萨罗一起回到了西班牙，很富有，有一个妻子，一座城堡。
Then he got bored and he decided to have a reign of terror on Northern America for three years.
然后他感到无聊，决定在北美实行三年的恐怖统治。
But he had people burned at the stake.
但他却把人烧死在火刑柱上。
He had his dogs rip them apart.
他让他的狗把它们撕碎。
He was very, very brutal.
他非常非常残酷。
He ruled that area through fear and had absolutely no respect for anybody.
他通过恐惧统治该地区，并且绝对不尊重任何人。
He made promises and broke them all the time.
他总是做出承诺，却又常常违背承诺。
He was really a brutal man.
他实在是一个残暴的人。
So this whole period when Christopher Columbus came, how did that change everything?
那么克里斯托弗·哥伦布到来的整个时期是如何改变一切的呢？
Well, there’s a great anthropological body of literature.
嗯，有大量的人类学文献。
2:55:00 Anthropological body of literature.
人类学文学体系。
It’s called the Columbian Exchange based on Columbus.
它被称为以哥伦布为基础的哥伦布交换。
But it’s all this trade back and forth between the new world and the old world.
但这都是新世界和旧世界之间的来回贸易。
And the old world got just wonderful stuff.
旧世界有很棒的东西。
All of a sudden their diet didn’t suck.
突然间，他们的饮食不再糟糕了。
All these vegetables came in.
这些蔬菜都进来了。
The new world got herd animals.
新世界有了群居动物。
It got pigs and cows and goats that it didn’t have, but it also got 13 infectious diseases.
它有它没有的猪、牛和山羊，但它也有13种传染病。
Europe had had wave after wave and kind of had herd immunity on a lot of things, but it didn’t actually go away.
欧洲经历了一波又一波的浪潮，在很多事情上都有群体免疫力，但它实际上并没有消失。
It just couldn’t spread like a wildfire through the community.
它只是无法像野火一样在社区中蔓延。
So when they arrived to the Americas, all of a sudden these just a pile of horrible diseases hit people.
所以当他们到达美洲时，突然间这些可怕的疾病袭击了人们。
I think in the first 20, 30 years, there were people who had contracted multiple deadly diseases at once and died of them.
我认为在最初的20年、30年里，有人同时感染了多种致命疾病并死于这些疾病。
2:56:03 But the numbers, it’s a shameful part of history, and it wasn’t something that Europe perpetrated on them.
但从数字上看，这是历史上可耻的一部分，而且这并不是欧洲对他们造成的。
Medical science at that time was still the four humors theory, that people were made of yellow bile, black bile, blood, and phlegm.
当时的医学还是四种体液学说，人是由黄胆汁、黑胆汁、血液、痰构成的。
And we did things like, well, you’ve got to bleed him.
我们做了一些事情，比如，好吧，你必须让他流血。
He’ll feel better then.
那时他会感觉好一些。
So we had no idea what an infectious disease was, but the reality was that this horde of diseases hit everyone.
所以我们不知道什么是传染病，但现实是这群疾病袭击了每个人。
And the numbers are now saying in the first 50 years that 90% of everybody was dead, and that the number of people has increased as well as far as our estimates.
现在的数字表明，在前 50 年里，90% 的人都死了，而且人数的增加程度与我们的估计一样多。
We’re thinking it’s somewhere around 150 million people and 90% of them died.
我们认为大约有 1.5 亿人，其中 90% 死亡。
And with them, all their knowledge.
还有他们所有的知识。
Just, I mean, imagine the moment where who dies when things get bad?
只是，我的意思是，想象一下当事情变得糟糕时谁会死去的那一刻？
It’s the young and the old.
这是年轻人和老年人。
So all the knowledge keepers die suddenly.
所以所有的知识守护者都突然死去。
2:57:07 The children die.
孩子们死了。
This next generation that’s half taught and now completely demoralized thinking that this is a spiritual attack, that their gods hate them, that the only way out of it is to accept this new Christianity.
下一代人受到了一半的教育，现在完全士气低落，认为这是一种精神攻击，他们的神讨厌他们，唯一的出路就是接受这种新的基督教。
But they don’t want to have to bring kids into this world where everybody’s dying.
但他们不想把孩子带到这个人人都在死去的世界。
And even if they do, they can’t teach them what the old people were going to teach them because the old people are gone and didn’t finish the transmission.
即使他们这样做了，他们也无法教他们老人要教他们的东西，因为老人已经走了并且没有完成传输。
So in a single terrible moment in human history, the generation loses all their knowledge.
因此，在人类历史上一个可怕的时刻，这一代人失去了所有的知识。
So a lot of the things these people knew just blipped out.
所以这些人知道的很多事情就这样消失了。
But with that also, just the wisdom of the entire civilizations-
但同时，也只有整个文明的智慧——
So much of-
这么多-
…
……
2:57:59 fades away.
消失。
…
……
2:58:00 what they knew was just lost at that moment.
他们所知道的在那一刻就消失了。
We have the Maya who had those hieroglyphs and that we’ve learned a lot from that.
我们的玛雅人拥有这些象形文字，我们从中学到了很多东西。
Yeah.
是的。
2:58:07 But not a significant integration of that wisdom into.
但并没有将这种智慧显着融入其中。
So it wasn’t when the Europeans came, it wasn’t like the cultures were integrated.
所以欧洲人来的时候，文化还没有融合。
It was a story of domination.
这是一个统治的故事。
Of erasure, essentially.
本质上是擦除。
In North America, there’s a new term in the literature that I like.
在北美，文学中有一个我喜欢的新术语。
2:58:22 We call it the Mississippian Shatter zone.
我们称之为密西西比破碎区。
That Mississippian civilization was millions of people, but they got spread out all over the place over the next centuries.
密西西比文明有数百万人，但他们在接下来的几个世纪里分散到了各地。
And now we have this Shatter zone where we have ruins, and the people that were actually from those ruins are somewhere else on a reservation far away.
现在我们有了这个破碎区域，那里有废墟，而实际上来自这些废墟的人却在遥远的保留地的其他地方。
And I’m just about to talk to a Cherokee man who listened to some of the things I had to say and says, “All those Ho-Chunk things you were saying from that Ho-Chunk culture, my grandparents talk about this sort of thing too.
我正要和一个切罗基人交谈，他听了我不得不说的一些事情，然后说：“你所说的所有那些来自 Ho-Chunk 文化的 Ho-Chunk 事情，我的祖父母也谈论这类事情。
Can I talk to you by phone and tell you about these things?” So we’ve got this Shatter zone where we’re going to try to put the puzzle back together, especially in terms of Mississippian religion.
我可以通过电话和你谈谈并告诉你这些事情吗？”所以我们有这个破碎区域，我们将尝试将谜题重新组合在一起，特别是在密西西比宗教方面。
I really think we’re making headway in this generation, and it’s exciting to be part of piecing this old religion and its mythology back together.
我真的认为我们这一代人正在取得进展，能够成为将这个古老的宗教及其神话重新拼凑在一起的一部分是令人兴奋的。
Just as since a lot of people refer to Christopher Columbus as the person who discovered America, I read that the Vikings reached North America much earlier in 1000 C.E.
正如很多人将克里斯托弗·哥伦布称为发现美洲的人一样，我读到维京人早在公元 1000 年就到达了北美。
2:59:25 And why do you think they didn’t expand and colonize?
你认为他们为什么没有扩张和殖民？
Because they got their ass kicked.
因为他们的屁股被踢了。
Okay.
好的。
2:59:47 Simple.
简单的。
It’s the truth.
这是事实。
2:59:48 It is absolutely true that the Vikings were here.
维京人曾经来过这里是千真万确的。
There’s a great site in Nova Scotia called L’Anse aux Meadows, which definitely has what’s left of a Viking colony.
新斯科舍省有一个很棒的地方，叫做 L’Anse aux Meadows，那里绝对有维京殖民地的遗迹。
It was Leif Eric and his father Eric the Red, who they got kind of kicked out of Europe because they apparently couldn’t stop murdering people.
莱夫·埃里克和他的父亲红发埃里克，他们被赶出了欧洲，因为他们显然无法停止杀人。
And so they went to Greenland and then kind of island hopped over to Canada.
于是他们去了格陵兰岛，然后又跳到了加拿大。
But I think the culture that was in that area was named the Dorset, but they would have nothing to do with the Vikings.
但我认为该地区的文化被命名为多塞特郡，但他们与维京人无关。
3:00:22 They attacked the Viking settlement every day and did not give them an inch until they decided it was just worthless and they left it.
他们每天都会攻击维京人的定居点，寸步不让，直到他们认为它毫无价值并离开了它。
The Vikings attacked Ireland, and they just found a bunch of monasteries full of gold with a bunch of guys going, “We’re men of God, we don’t fight.” And the Vikings were like, “This is great.
维京人袭击了爱尔兰，他们刚刚发现了一堆装满黄金的修道院，里面有一群人说：“我们是上帝的子民，我们不打仗。”维京人说：“这太棒了。
That’s great.
太好了。
This will be easy, then.
那么这会很容易。
We’ll just loot all these Easter eggs.” But the Native Americans in Canada were not having it.
我们会抢劫所有这些复活节彩蛋。”但加拿大的美洲原住民却没有这样的经历。
They kicked their ass.
他们踢了他们的屁股。
In fact, Leif Erickson’s brother Thor died there.
事实上，莱夫·埃里克森的兄弟托尔就死在那里。
The natives killed him.
当地人杀了他。
He was supposed to be in charge of expanding the settlement, but they just killed him.
他本应负责扩大定居点，但他们却杀了他。
So a lot of the Native American cultures were also, I mean, they’re sophisticated, warring cultures also.
因此，我的意思是，许多美洲原住民文化也是复杂的、交战的文化。
Yes, they fought.
是的，他们打架了。
3:01:11 Especially the Mississippians.
尤其是密西西比人。
Boy, they were tough.
天哪，他们很强硬。
And so were the five nations.
五国亦然。
The Mohawk, the Huron, the ones that kicked the Vikings’ ass up there, they were probably Algonquin speakers.
莫霍克人、休伦人、那些打败维京人的人，他们可能都是讲阿尔冈昆语的人。
But they were connected just above the Great Lakes, but they were all very tough people.
但他们就在五大湖之上相连，但他们都是非常坚强的人。
When you think about the Spaniards and the Portuguese and the over a hundred million people that were killed, do you see that as a tragedy of history or is it just the way of history?
当你想到西班牙人和葡萄牙人以及上亿人被杀害时，你认为这是历史的悲剧还是这就是历史的本来面目？
I think that the epidemics, I consider it a tragedy.
我认为流行病，我认为这是一场悲剧。
3:01:49 That did not have to happen, and that was not a fair fight.
这种情况本不应该发生，而且那不是一场公平的战斗。
Nobody knew what to do about it.
没有人知道该怎么办。
There was just a tragic, perfect storm of events.
发生了一场悲惨而完美的事件风暴。
I think that the Spanish and the Portuguese get unfairly maligned in what’s been called the Black Legend, that they just marched into America and murdered everyone.
我认为西班牙人和葡萄牙人在所谓的“黑色传奇”中受到了不公平的诽谤，他们刚刚进军美国并谋杀了所有人。
That’s not the fact.
事实并非如此。
It was the diseases that murdered everyone.
正是这些疾病杀死了所有人。
3:02:20 In fact, there was a really poignant story I read of a Spanish priest in the Amazon, in the Brazilian northern part of the Amazon where he made this utopian community and he was bringing people in that were getting sick, and he wrote, “I’m baptizing everyone.
事实上，我读过一个非常令人心酸的故事，讲的是亚马逊地区的一位西班牙牧师，他在亚马逊地区的巴西北部地区建立了这个乌托邦社区，他把生病的人带进来，他写道：“我正在为每个人施洗。
I have baptized 10,000 people a day, and yet God’s still killing them.
我每天给一万人施洗，但神仍然在杀他们。
Why is he doing this to them?
他为什么要这样对他们？
They’re doing everything that I ask them to do.
他们正在做我要求他们做的一切。
They are submitting to the will of God.” But this guy doesn’t realize that the same bowl of holy water that he’s baptizing them in, he’s just wiping the disease on everybody’s faces.
他们正在服从上帝的旨意。”但这家伙没有意识到，他在给他们施洗的同一碗圣水中，只是在擦拭每个人脸上的疾病。
He’s accelerating it when he doesn’t even realize.
当他甚至没有意识到的时候，他就加速了。
He thinks he’s saving them, but he’s actually killing them.
他以为他在拯救他们，但实际上他在杀死他们。
That’s a tragedy.
这是一场悲剧。
That’s not just like spoils go to the victor stuff.
这不仅仅是胜利者的战利品。
That’s just straight up tragedy.
这简直就是一场悲剧。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
3:03:19 But that one is hard to know what to do with, like Black Death.
但很难知道如何处理这种疾病，就像黑死病一样。
I mean infections, they don’t operate on normal human terms, right?
我的意思是感染，它们不会以正常人类的方式运作，对吧？
They just go through entire populations.
他们只是遍历整个人群。
Back to wild ideas.
回到疯狂的想法。
All right, just my style.
好吧，只是我的风格。
I mean we didn’t really talk about how life originated on Earth or how humans have evolved, and we did talk about that there could be just a lot of stuff in ancient history we haven’t even uncovered yet.
我的意思是，我们并没有真正谈论生命是如何在地球上起源或人类是如何进化的，我们确实谈论了古代历史中可能有很多我们还没有发现的东西。
3:03:41 Do you think it’s possible that other intelligent civilizations from outside of earth, aliens ever visited?
你认为地球以外的其他智慧文明、外星人是否曾经访问过？
You had me right until the ever visited thing.
你让我一直在访问过的事情之前。
3:04:07 That one I’m not entirely sure about.
我不太确定这一点。
I’m not sure whether we have any…
我不确定我们是否有……
We certainly have no archaeological proof that I would cite or contemplate as the evidence of such.
我们当然没有考古证据可供我引用或考虑作为此类证据。
But the guys that discovered DNA, Watson and Crick, Watson who actually habitually used hallucinogens to invigorate his thinking, he said that he thought that DNA on this planet was way too complex to have developed over the time period that it had at its disposal.
但是发现DNA的人，沃森和克里克，沃森实际上习惯性地使用致幻剂来激发他的思维，他说他认为这个星球上的DNA太复杂了，不可能在它所掌握的时间段内发展起来。
And that his guess was that our DNA was somehow seeded from outside of our planet.
他的猜测是我们的 DNA 是从地球外部以某种方式播种的。
And take that for what it is.
就这样吧。
But the guy who we respect on many other levels also said that.
但我们在许多其他层面上尊敬的人也说过这样的话。
So that’s interesting.
这很有趣。
But in terms of aliens visiting us, I don’t know.
但至于外星人来访我们，我不知道。
It does smack of a kind of human hubris that we think we’re important enough for some advanced species to give a shit about us.
我们认为自己足够重要，以至于某些高级物种对我们不屑一顾，这确实有点人类的傲慢。
3:05:19 Statistically speaking, the universe is way too big.
从统计学上来说，宇宙太大了。
We can’t be the only sentient beings.
我们不可能是唯一的众生。
There’s got to be somebody else out there.
那里一定还有其他人。
Whether they care about us, that’s a question.
他们是否关心我们，这是一个问题。
I’ve been on Ancient Aliens a number of times.
我已经看过《远古外星人》很多次了。
I show up and I’m an educator.
我出现了，我是一名教育家。
I mean, refusing to be part of the conversation is an immediate fail in my book.
我的意思是，拒绝参与对话是我书中的直接失败。
But there was one time where they asked me at the end, “Do you have anything else do you want to say?” And I said, “Well, y’all’s premise is that aliens came down a long time ago and they gave humanity these wonderful gifts of science and medicine, engineering, all these things.
但有一次最后他们问我：“你还有什么要说的吗？”我说：“好吧，你们的前提是外星人很久以前就降临了，他们给了人类科学、医学、工程学等所有这些美好的礼物。
Today we also have a lot of stories of the aliens coming down, but now all they’re doing is mutilating cows and sodomizing rednecks.” Like whatever we did, we super pissed them off apparently.”
今天我们也有很多外星人降临的故事，但现在他们所做的只是残害牛和鸡奸乡巴佬。”就像我们所做的一切一样，我们显然非常惹恼了他们。”
The quality of the gifts has decreased rapidly.
礼物的质量急剧下降。
3:06:18 It’s an interesting thought you’ve mentioned.
你提到的这是一个有趣的想法。
What archeologically would you have to see to be like, this might be an alien?
从考古学角度看，你会看到什么样的人，这可能是外星人？
A technology that doesn’t belong there first and foremost.
一项首先不属于那里的技术。
3:06:33 I mean, if we just run with the premise that somebody was capable of making a vehicle that could get them from somewhere far away to here, that was almost certainly mechanical.
我的意思是，如果我们假设有人有能力制造一种车辆，可以将他们从很远的地方带到这里，那几乎肯定是机械的。
Now, I love the aliens thing where biomechanical is something that certainly could be and that would disintegrate.
现在，我喜欢外星人的事情，生物力学肯定是可能存在的，而且会瓦解。
We wouldn’t see that at all, but I would expect some kind of technology that showed up out of the blue and changed things.
我们根本看不到这一点，但我希望某种技术会突然出现并改变一切。
That would be something.
那会是一些事情。
But I would think mechanical or a substance that’s not from here.
但我认为是机械的或不是来自这里的物质。
But of course we would only see the results of that mechanical.
但当然我们只会看到那个机械的结果。
3:07:18 You mean literally a mechanical thing?
你的意思是字面意思是机械的东西吗？
Right.
对。
3:07:24 Some sort of thing like that.
类似这样的事情。
The typical thing people say is how did they move these giant stones?
人们最常说的就是他们是如何搬动这些巨石的？
But just look at that on the face for a second.
但只要看看脸上的情况就知道了。
Aliens come from across the universe to meet humans, and the thing they tell them is how to move rocks?
外星人从宇宙各处来到这里与人类相遇，他们告诉人类的是如何搬动石头？
Are you fucking kidding me?
你他妈是在开玩笑吗？
I mean, give them antibiotics or a combustion engine or something.
我的意思是，给他们抗生素或内燃机之类的东西。
They came across the universe and they showed them how to move big rocks?
他们穿越宇宙并向他们展示如何移动大石头？
I mean, that doesn’t make any sense.
我的意思是，这没有任何意义。
That just doesn’t make any sense.
这没有任何意义。
What do you think earth will look like 10,000 years from now?
你认为一万年后的地球会是什么样子？
That’s an interesting question.
这是一个有趣的问题。
3:08:09 I think it will be a lot more automated or it’ll be a smoldering pile.
我认为它会更加自动化，否则就会变成一堆闷烧。
There is a possibility we could end ourselves.
我们有可能结束自己。
There’s always that possibility that we’ve really opened Pandora’s box in some regards.
我们总有可能在某些方面真正打开了潘多拉魔盒。
I did listen to one of your podcast guests with what would happen in the case of nuclear war.
我确实听过一位播客嘉宾讲述了核战争时会发生什么。
That was chilling.
那真是令人不寒而栗。
Her opinion was certainly we would burn everything to a crisp within minutes apparently.
她的意见是我们显然会在几分钟内把所有东西烧成碎片。
So we have that capacity.
所以我们有这个能力。
That’s scary.
太可怕了。
That’s a possible future for us.
这对我们来说是一个可能的未来。
But I’m an optimist.
但我是一个乐观主义者。
I’d like to think that guys like you are going to make friendly robots who make my job better.
我想像你这样的人会制造出友好的机器人，让我的工作变得更好。
But 1,000, 10,000 years is a long time.
但一千年、一万年是一段很长的时间。
3:08:55 And technology is improving and becoming more advanced rapidly, and the rate of that improvement is increasing ever more so.
技术正在迅速改进并变得更加先进，而且改进的速度越来越快。
That’s the part that frightens me actually.
这实际上是让我害怕的部分。
3:09:10 I don’t know, does that frighten you?
不知道，这吓到你了吗？
Yes.
是的。
3:09:13 Terrifying.
太可怕了。
I heard somebody say, I forget who it was.
我听到有人说，我忘记是谁了。
3:09:16 But systems of any kind, human systems, biological systems can be put on a graph that’s change over time and any graph that the change is way faster than the time and the line starts going straight up, that is a system in crisis.
但是任何类型的系统，人类系统，生物系统都可以放在一张随时间变化的图表上，任何变化比时间快得多并且线条开始直线上升的图表，那就是一个处于危机中的系统。
In almost any biological system that has that fast to change over that little of time, any other thing you’d describe it as a crisis.
几乎在任何生物系统中，在这么短的时间内变化如此之快，任何其他事情你都会将其描述为危机。
When you apply that chart to technologies change, it’s a crisis.
当你将该图表应用于技术变革时，这就是一场危机。
From that perspective, absolutely.
从这个角度来说，绝对是。
3:09:59 But I also have a faith in human ingenuity that we humans like to create a really difficult situation and then come up with ways to get out of that difficult situation.
但我也相信人类的聪明才智，我们人类喜欢创造一个非常困难的局面，然后想出摆脱这种困难局面的方法。
And in so doing innovate and create a lot of awesome stuff and sometimes cause a lot of suffering.
在这样做的过程中，我们会创新并创造出很多很棒的东西，有时也会带来很多痛苦。
But on the whole, on average, make a better world.
但总的来说，平均而言，创造一个更美好的世界。
But with nuclear weapons, the bad stuff might actually lead to the death of everybody.
但对于核武器来说，坏事实际上可能会导致所有人死亡。
I guess there’s always that chance, but I am an optimist.
我想总是有这样的机会，但我是一个乐观主义者。
3:10:34 I think you’re an optimist too.
我想你也是一个乐观主义者。
I think exactly as you just said.
我想正如你刚才所说的。
I think that the greatest capacity of humans is our ability to innovate.
我认为人类最大的能力就是我们的创新能力。
And we are never more innovative than when we’re under distress.
当我们处于困境时，我们的创新能力是最高的。
I think that a lot of the developments of humans over the last thousands of years have been about we didn’t change the world when we were comfortable.
我认为过去几千年来人类的许多发展都是因为我们在舒适的时候并没有改变世界。
It was when we were in crisis.
那是我们陷入危机的时候。
Necessity is the mother of invention.
需要是发明之母。
But I think we’ll be all right.
但我想我们会没事的。
I think that this impending climate crisis is real and happening.
我认为这场迫在眉睫的气候危机是真实存在的并且正在发生。
I actually personally think that I’m going to answer a question that you didn’t even ask me.
事实上，我个人认为我会回答一个你甚至没有问过我的问题。
3:11:25 I think we’re wasting our time thinking that we can reverse this.
我认为我们认为我们可以扭转这种局面是在浪费时间。
We’re delusional.
我们有妄想症。
I’m all for electric cars and being good stewards of the environment, but we are wasting our time not technologically adapting to what’s about to happen.
我完全支持电动汽车并成为环境的好管家，但我们正在浪费时间，而不是在技术上适应即将发生的事情。
We’re spending too much time pretending, the average American thinks if we all just drive electric cars, we’ll be okay.
我们花了太多时间假装，普通美国人认为如果我们都开电动汽车，我们就会没事。
That’s bullshit.
那是胡说八道。
That’s not going to happen.
那不会发生。
We need to start making technologies that desalinize water, a host of things that we need to use our technological capacity to accept it and adapt, instead of Pollyanna thinking we can make it go away.
我们需要开始制造海水淡化技术，我们需要利用我们的技术能力来接受和适应一系列的事情，而不是盲目乐观地认为我们可以让它消失。
Yeah, kind of accept that the world will change and a lot of big problems will arise and just develop technology that addresses them.
是的，接受世界将会改变、将会出现很多大问题的事实，并开发解决这些问题的技术。
I think you have some guys that have their finger on the pulse there.
我认为有些人已经掌握了脉搏。
3:12:22 We need to start thinking about how we’re going to survive this, not that we’re going to make it go away.
我们需要开始思考如何度过这一难关，而不是让它消失。
And not just survive, thrive.
不仅要生存，还要蓬勃发展。
3:12:30 Again, we’re pretty innovative in that regard.
同样，我们在这方面非常具有创新性。
But if some catastrophic thing happens or we just leave this planet, what do you think would be found by aforementioned alien civilizations when they visit?
但如果发生一些灾难性的事情或者我们离开这个星球，你认为上述外星文明访问时会发现什么？
The anthropologists, the grad student anthropologists that visit Earth and study, how much of what we know, have, and love and think of as human civilization will be lost do you think?
人类学家，那些访问地球并进行研究的研究生人类学家，你认为我们所知道的、拥有的、热爱的和思考的人类文明有多少将会消失？
Well, time moves on and things that are perishable perish.
好吧，时间在流逝，易腐烂的东西都会消失。
3:13:02 So you didn’t put a time element in there, but I would say that everything that can perish will, and whoever shows up here will be stuck with only the things that didn’t perish.
所以你没有把时间因素放进去，但我想说的是，一切会灭亡的东西都会灭亡，无论谁出现在这里，只会被那些没有灭亡的东西所困住。
So we’ll have buildings, plaques, but they won’t have any books.
所以我们会有建筑物、牌匾，但他们不会有任何书籍。
They won’t have any billboards.
他们不会有任何广告牌。
They’ll have the incomplete record I have.
他们将拥有我所拥有的不完整记录。
I one time did a talk in Sioux Falls and I said I drove in here and there was a big obelisk in front of the town.
有一次我在苏福尔斯做了一次演讲，我说我开车来这里，镇前有一座大方尖碑。
And everywhere I go, I see the names Lewis and Clark.
无论我走到哪里，我都能看到刘易斯和克拉克的名字。
And a thousand years from now, if I was an archeologist investigating this place, I would think that it was founded by the Egyptians and their kings were named Lewis and Clark.
一千年后，如果我是一名考古学家调查这个地方，我会认为它是由埃及人建立的，他们的国王名叫刘易斯和克拉克。
But the truth is, you know Lewis and Clark stayed one night here, but it’s just a big deal.
但事实是，你知道刘易斯和克拉克在这里住了一晚，但这只是一件大事。
So I would be so wrong about what I thought about your town based on what preserved.
所以，根据保存下来的东西，我对你的城镇的看法是非常错误的。
It’s so beautiful as a thought experiment.
作为一个思想实验，它是如此美丽。
3:14:13 What would archeologists be really wrong about?
考古学家到底错了什么？
And what would they could possibly be right about?
他们在哪些方面可能是正确的？
Washington D.C. was clearly made by a combination of the Egyptians and the Greeks and the Romans because that’s what all the architecture is.
华盛顿特区显然是由埃及人、希腊人和罗马人共同建造的，因为所有的建筑都是如此。
Yeah.
是的。
3:14:31 And would they be able to reconstruct the important empires, the powerful empires, and the warring empires?
他们能否重建重要帝国、强盛帝国、交战帝国？
For that matter, have me and my colleagues done that at all?
就此而言，我和我的同事有这样做过吗？
3:14:41 I am almost certain that the Maya would just gut laugh at what I think I know what they were.
我几乎可以肯定，玛雅人会对我自以为知道的东西大笑。
I wonder, do you ever think about what we just as a human civilization are wrong about the most?
我想知道，你有没有想过，作为一个人类文明，我们最错误的是什么？
3:14:50 Like mainstream archaeology.
就像主流考古学一样。
Just like a suspicion.
就像怀疑一样。
What could we get completely wrong?
什么是我们可能完全错误的？
Well, one way to get something wrong is totally lost civilization.
好吧，犯错的一种方法就是完全失去文明。
An obviously gigantic civilization that was there along with the Maya or something like this in the 10,000 years ago.
一万年前，一个显然是与玛雅人或类似的文明一起存在的巨大文明。
There’s certainly that.
当然有。
3:15:17 There could be things that were either wiped away or still hiding under the oceans that would completely change the way we think about things.
可能有些东西已经被抹去或仍然隐藏在海底，这将彻底改变我们思考事物的方式。
And everybody knew they existed and everybody interacted with them.
每个人都知道它们的存在并且每个人都与它们互动。
3:15:26 It was [inaudible 03:15:31].
是[听不清 03:15:31]。
I think it’s our estimation of their motivations that were probably most wrong on.
我认为我们对他们动机的估计可能是最错误的。
3:15:30 My teacher Sheila a long time ago said, I’ve come up with all sorts of theories.
我的老师希拉很早以前就说过，我提出了各种各样的理论。
I was always thinking about stuff.
我一直在想一些事情。
And she looked at me and she said, “If you don’t stop thinking like a western European and start trying to put yourself in the mindset of these people, you will never understand any of it.” Which I’ve always taken to heart.
她看着我说：“如果你不停止像西欧人一样思考，并开始尝试将自己置于这些人的思维方式中，你将永远不会理解其中的任何内容。”我一直牢记这一点。
I mean, I really do.
我是说，我真的这么做。
When I approach these things, I try to step out of my cultural assumptions, try to think like they would think as the best I could.
当我处理这些事情时，我尝试摆脱我的文化假设，尝试像他们一样思考，尽我所能。
And it’s very different.
这是非常不同的。
This whole, the Maya are cyclical, the whole sacrifice, we’re so obsessed with that.
整个玛雅人都是周期性的，整个牺牲，我们对此非常着迷。
But that wasn’t an austere actual sacrifice on their part.
但这并不是他们真正的严峻牺牲。
They weren’t just, “Hey, let’s all get together and kill that guy that’s pissing us off.” I mean, they were giving the best of them.
他们不仅仅是，“嘿，让我们一起来杀掉那个惹恼我们的家伙。”我的意思是，他们竭尽全力。
It was a different mentality.
这是一种不同的心态。
This was not brutal.
这并不残酷。
This was a bonafide sacrifice on their part, a loss.
这是他们的真正牺牲，是一种损失。
Plus the whole mystery of the puppy that eventually starts having sex with [inaudible 03:16:44].
加上最终开始与小狗发生性关系的整个谜团 [听不清 03:16:44]。
I’m going to unweave that one of these days.
有一天我要把它解开。
One of these days.
这几天之一。
3:16:45 Now that puppy appeared on Pottery?
现在那只小狗出现在陶器上了吗？
All over Pottery.
遍布陶器。
3:16:51 He’s everywhere.
他无处不在。
I got to write this book.
我必须写这本书。
This next year is the year I’m going to write my Fang deity book and I will have a whole chapter dedicated to the puppy.
明年我要写我的方神书，我将有一整章专门讨论这只小狗。
The mystery solved.
谜团解开了。
3:17:04 I mean, it could just be the birth of memes of humor.
我的意思是，这可能只是幽默模因的诞生。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I mean, again, humor.
我的意思是，再一次，幽默。
You don’t know what the nature of their humor, of what their jokes are.
你不知道他们的幽默本质是什么，他们的笑话是什么。
Oh, that’s a neat one too.
哦，这也很漂亮。
3:17:14 And that’s so human.
这太人性化了。
I’ll tell you a little side story here, that when I worked with the Maya people in Palenque, I spent three years making this map of the city and hiking through the jungle every day.
我在这里要告诉你一个小故事，当我与帕伦克的玛雅人一起工作时，我花了三年时间制作这张城市地图，并每天徒步穿越丛林。
And they would talk to each other in their own language.
他们会用自己的语言互相交谈。
[Celtal 03:17:34] was the group I was working with.
[Celtal 03:17:34] 是我正在合作的小组。
But I noticed after a while they were big jokers.
但过了一段时间我注意到他们很爱开玩笑。
They loved to make jokes and they would laugh at jokes, but then they would also, one of them would say something and the other ones would go, hoo hoo.
他们喜欢开玩笑，听笑话就会笑，但他们也会，其中一个会说些什么，另一个会说，呼呼。
And I eventually asked, “What is that?
最后我问：“那是什么？
Why do you guys always make that hoo hoo noise?” And he said, “That’s because…” He made a really smart pun.
为什么你们总是发出“呼呼”的声音？他说，“那是因为……”他说了一个非常聪明的双关语。
It was like he said three different things at once.
就像他同时说了三件事一样。
It was a turn of phrase that was smart.
这是一个很聪明的措辞转变。
And they didn’t make laughs at that.
他们并没有因此而笑。
They had a noise for when somebody said something just super clever.
当有人说出一些非常聪明的话时，他们就会发出噪音。
So there’s also that just clever turn of speech.
所以还有一个巧妙的措辞。
Yeah.
是的。
3:18:14 Wit.
机智。
And I think about that when I’m a hieroglyphic translator.
当我是一名象形文字翻译者时，我会思考这一点。
3:18:15 Here’s a beautiful thing that’s going to be like a poem or a political statement, and I’m just ploddingly looking in a dictionary of what that word means.
这是一件美丽的事情，就像一首诗或一篇政治声明，而我只是在字典中缓慢地查找该词的含义。
There’s probably double, triple entendres all through this text.
这篇文章中可能有双关、三重的意思。
And the real meaning is the subtext.
真正的含义是潜台词。
And I’m thinking they’re talking about corn and they’re talking about the nature of life.
我认为他们正在谈论玉米，他们正在谈论生命的本质。
It could be satire, it could be as it was in the Soviet Union when there’s a dictator, maybe there’s an overpowering king.
这可能是讽刺，也可能像苏联那样，有一个独裁者，也许有一个压倒性的国王。
3:18:41 You’re not allowed to actually speak.
你不被允许真正说话。
You have to hide the thing you’re actually trying to say in the subtext, in all of that.
你必须在潜台词中隐藏你真正想说的东西。
There was a funny Maya ceramic that had, the ceramics are neat, because the monuments can be kind of broken records.
有一种有趣的玛雅陶瓷，陶瓷很整齐，因为纪念碑可能是打破记录的。
3:19:00 I’m the king, I was born this time, I beat these people up.
我是王，这一次我诞生了，我打败了这些人。
I married this woman, I died.
我娶了这个女人，然后我死了。
But the ceramics will tell us things out of mythology stories.
但陶瓷会告诉我们神话故事中的事情。
And there was this one with a rabbit looking at the merchant God.
还有一只兔子看着商人之神。
And nobody could translate the text.
没有人能翻译这段文字。
And finally this eastern European, actually a Ukrainian guy translated it and the rabbit’s saying to the merchant God, “Bend over and smell my ass.” And like, oh man, we were expecting this wonderful piece of mythology.
最后，这个东欧人，实际上是一个乌克兰人翻译了它，还有兔子对商人上帝说的：“弯下腰来闻我的屁股。”就像，天哪，我们期待着这个精彩的神话。
But no, it translates bend over and smell my ass.
但不，它的意思是弯腰闻我的屁股。
That’s great.
太好了。
That’s human.
这就是人类。
As we mentioned previously, human nature does not change.
正如我们之前提到的，人性不会改变。
3:19:47 You mentioned Palenque and mapping it.
您提到了帕伦克并绘制了它的地图。
Just out of curiosity, what is that process like?
只是出于好奇，这个过程是什么样的？
It seems fascinating.
看起来很迷人。
Oh, it was a great adventure.
哦，这是一次伟大的冒险。
3:19:58 I loved it, but it was difficult.
我很喜欢它，但这很困难。
I woke up every morning thinking I will be hurt today somehow.
我每天早上醒来都想今天我会受到某种程度的伤害。
I don’t know how.
我不知道怎么办。
I don’t know badly, where on my body it will occur, but it’s going to happen.
我不太清楚它会发生在我身体的哪个部位，但它一定会发生。
It was the jungle.
那是丛林。
So in the jungle, what’s the process like?
那么在丛林中，过程是怎样的呢？
3:20:14 What do you have to do to map it?
您需要做什么来绘制它？
Well, it was tricky too because it was also a national forest.
嗯，这也很棘手，因为它也是国家森林。
3:20:20 So the forestry department didn’t want us to cut down anything more than we had to.
所以林业部门不希望我们砍伐超过我们必须砍伐的东西。
So we basically just cut tunnels through the foliage and we’d map everything twice.
所以我们基本上只是在树叶上挖隧道，然后把所有东西都绘制两次。
The first thing we’d do is I’d go in, find a building, draw it on a piece of graph paper.
我们要做的第一件事就是进去，找到一座建筑物，把它画在一张方格纸上。
And I’d say, “You guys go north.
我会说：“你们去北方吧。
You guys go east, west.
你们向东走，向西走。
Find other buildings.
寻找其他建筑物。
And when you find them, pace back to this one.” And so I’d start making a map and I’d make the whole…
当你找到它们时，请回到这个。”所以我会开始制作一张地图，然后制作整个……
One piece of graph paper was enough to.
一张方格纸就足够了。
Then we’d bring the machine in, we’d bring the laser theodolite and get really accurate information.
然后我们会带上机器，带上激光经纬仪并获得真正准确的信息。
But on that piece of paper, I would write, “Don’t bring the machine this way.
但在那张纸上，我会写：“不要把机器带到这边。
There’s a tree fall.” Or, “Stand on top of this building and you’ll see four different buildings at once from this one.”
有一棵树倒下了。”或者，“站在这座建筑物的顶部，您会同时看到四座不同的建筑物。”
And all of this is in dense jungle?
而这一切都是在茂密的丛林中？
Right.
对。
3:21:14 And the deeper we got off the road, the deeper it was.
我们离开道路越深，路就越深。
Sometimes it would clear out, but certain places, if it was low, it would be such thick vegetation and it would grow back so fast.
有时它会消失，但某些地方，如果地势低，植被会很茂密，而且会很快恢复。
Sometimes we would cut just tunnels through tall grass and we’d come back five days later and they were gone.
有时我们会在高高的草丛中开凿隧道，五天后我们回来时，它们就消失了。
We couldn’t even find where our trails were.
我们甚至找不到我们的踪迹在哪里。
They would grow back that fast.
他们会长回来那么快。
But you see the building, so you could see?
但你看到了这座建筑，所以你能看到吗？
Right.
对。
3:21:45 And that was the fun part.
这就是有趣的部分。
I mean, sometimes it would just be a little neighborhood with little low buildings no bigger than this table, but sometimes just five more meters in and I’m standing under a pyramid that nobody had ever mapped.
我的意思是，有时它只是一个小社区，有一些低矮的建筑，不比这张桌子大，但有时只有五米多，我就站在一个没有人绘制过地图的金字塔下面。
Like, wow, I’ve just found another one.
就像，哇，我刚刚找到了另一个。
And some days on good days, we’d find three pyramids.
有时天气好的时候，我们会发现三座金字塔。
And I felt that’s such a more exciting job than the typical excavation, say.
我觉得这比典型的挖掘工作更令人兴奋。
All my buddies were all just in a hole for the whole week in the middle of the city.
我所有的朋友都在市中心的一个洞里呆了整整一个星期。
And where I’m dancing around through the jungle, I could find 10 buildings today.
今天我在丛林中跳舞的地方可以找到 10 座建筑物。
I might find a pyramid today.
我今天可能会发现一座金字塔。
Who knows?
谁知道？
What’s that feel like to find a pyramid or buildings that you are one of the only humans that are not from that civilization to ever see this thing?
发现一座金字塔或建筑物，而你是唯一一个不是来自那个文明、见过这个东西的人类之一，那感觉如何？
3:22:23 What’s that feel like?
那是什么感觉？
It’s great.
太棒了。
3:22:32 I love that feeling.
我喜欢那种感觉。
I am an explorer at heart, so finding something like that, when I was 25 years old, I found a whole Maya city.
我本质上是一个探险家，所以当我 25 岁的时候，我发现了类似的东西，我发现了整个玛雅城市。
Got to name it, its name is Ma’ax Na.
必须给它起个名字，它的名字叫Ma’ax Na。
It’s off in the Belizean jungle.
它位于伯利兹丛林中。
And that was just outrageous.
这太令人愤慨了。
I mean, it almost…
我的意思是，它几乎……
That one almost depressed me.
那件事几乎让我沮丧。
I had this great life ambition that I would find a lost city.
我有一个伟大的人生抱负，那就是找到一座失落的城市。
And then I did it at 25 and I was like, God, now what do I do?
然后我在 25 岁的时候做到了，我想，上帝，现在我该怎么办？
I thought that was supposed to take me my whole life.
我以为这会带走我的一生。
I actually, I wrote a bunch of letters to NASA trying to get them to let me be the first archaeologist on Mars.
事实上，我给美国宇航局写了很多信，试图让他们让我成为火星上的第一位考古学家。
I never got a single reply back.
我从来没有得到任何回复。
I’m sure I’m on NASA’s list as some weirdo.
我确信我在美国宇航局的名单上是个怪人。
How’d you find a Mayan city?
你是如何找到玛雅城市的？
I used a topography map of the area and I played the game.
我使用了该地区的地形图并玩了游戏。
3:23:29 If I was a Maya, where would my favorite place to live in this big area be?
如果我是玛雅人，在这么大的地区我最喜欢居住的地方是哪里？
I looked for the biggest mountain because they call all of their pyramids tune wheat stone mountains.
我寻找最大的山，因为他们把所有的金字塔都称为“麦石山”。
I knew they loved mountains.
我知道他们喜欢山。
And when I found that mountain, there were two others right next to it that made a triangle and they love those triads, and there were rivers in between them.
当我找到那座山时，它旁边还有另外两座山，形成了一个三角形，他们喜欢这些三角形，而且它们之间有河流。
And I thought, that’s it.
我想，就是这样。
That’s where I would build the city.
那就是我要建造城市的地方。
And I hiked out there over two seasons with students.
我和学生们在那里徒步旅行了两个季节。
The other grad students were like, “He’s just having his students just wander in the jungle all day.” But I came back with a city.
其他研究生就像是，“他只是让他的学生整天在丛林里闲逛。”但我带着一座城市回来了。
So given that you’ve looked into the deep past of humanity, what gives you hope about our future, maybe our deep future of this human civilization?
既然您已经深入研究了人类的过去，是什么让您对我们的未来，也许是我们这个人类文明的深刻未来充满希望？
That’s a good one, and I do have hope.
这是一件好事，我确实有希望。
3:24:25 I do have hope.
我确实有希望。
I believe in the spirit of humankind.
我相信人类的精神。
I as a person who have studied history, I kind of feel like history does kind of a sine wave.
我作为一个研究历史的人，我感觉历史确实是一种正弦波。
There’s highs and there’s lows, but no matter how low we go, we get up again and we climb.
有高潮，也有低谷，但无论我们跌得多低，我们都会再次站起来，继续攀登。
And I think that humanity will continue that.
我认为人类将继续这样做。
We will rise to the challenges.
我们将迎接挑战。
Now, some of the challenges may be created by ourselves as well, but we will adapt and overcome.
现在，有些挑战也可能是我们自己造成的，但我们会适应并克服。
That’s what we do.
这就是我们所做的。
Yeah, humans find a way, right?
是的，人类总能找到办法，对吗？
3:25:01 That’s the thing you see with history.
这就是你在历史中看到的事情。
Even when the empires collapse, the humans that come out of that, they pick themselves up and find another way.
即使帝国崩溃了，从中走出来的人类也会振作起来并找到另一种出路。
They build anew.
他们重新建造。
And the people I study believe in the cyclical nature of life.
我研究的人相信生命的周期性。
3:25:17 That you really can’t, life can’t continue without death being part of the cycle.
你真的不能，如果死亡不成为循环的一部分，生命就无法继续。
We get our lows, we get our highs, but the cycle continues forever.
我们有过低谷，也有过高潮，但这个循环永远持续下去。
I should mention that you have a lot of great lectures on the great courses, but you have also an amazing podcast, ArchaeoEd.
我应该提一下，你们有很多关于精彩课程的精彩讲座，但你们也有一个很棒的播客，ArchaeoEd。
3:25:31 If people want to listen to it, this is a tough question, but what would you recommend?
如果人们想听，这是一个很难回答的问题，但你会推荐什么？
What episodes should they listen to?
他们应该听哪些剧集？
What’s the answer?
答案是什么？
Oh, that is a tough question.
哦，这是一个很难回答的问题。
What is the sampling?
什么是抽样？
3:25:56 It’s like asking a chef what’s the best stuff on the menu?
这就像问厨师菜单上最好的东西是什么？
Well, different strokes for different folks.
嗯，不同的人有不同的行程。
3:26:03 I do two different things on that podcast.
我在那个播客上做了两件不同的事情。
Sometimes I just teach about cultures that you’ve never heard about.
有时我只是教你从未听说过的文化。
I love…
我爱……
I start off by saying, “It’s my podcast and I’ll talk about whatever the heck I want to talk about.” Sometimes I talk about really specific things like a tool type or an animal type, but my favorite ones have become when I just tell my stories of my adventures.
我首先说：“这是我的播客，我会谈论我想谈论的任何事情。”有时我会谈论非常具体的事物，例如工具类型或动物类型，但当我只讲述我的冒险故事时，我最喜欢的就是这些。
I’ve got a lot of weird adventure stories and it’s been fun and they’ve been very well received.
我有很多奇怪的冒险故事，很有趣，而且很受欢迎。
I can put my humor in there and I can talk about the things that went right, the things that went wrong.
我可以把我的幽默感放在那里，我可以谈论哪些事情是正确的，哪些事情是错误的。
The adventures that I had are all part of this ArchaeoEd thing.
我所经历的冒险都是ArchaeoEd 活动的一部分。
ArchaeoEd’s kind of a double entendre.
ArchaeoEd 有点双关语。
It’s me, I’m just Ed.
是我，我只是艾德。
But it’s also education.
但这也是教育。
3:26:53 What I’m really trying to do with this too, it’s specifically the Americas.
我真正想做的也是美洲。
I want to be part of the reawakening that there were these great civilizations here, especially North America.
我想成为人们重新认识这里存在着这些伟大文明的一部分，尤其是北美。
I think that we have a group amnesia that there was no great civilizations here before Europe showed up.
我认为我们有一种集体失忆症，在欧洲出现之前这里没有伟大的文明。
That’s simply not true.
这根本不是真的。
I think it should be part of our history books.
我认为它应该成为我们历史书的一部分。
In fact, I have a program called Before the Americas that would introduce as part of a American history, the part before European contact.
事实上，我有一个名为“在美洲之前”的节目，该节目将介绍美国历史的一部分，即欧洲接触之前的部分。
And I think that kids in the K through 12 level should grow up not being told this fallacy that no one was here before we showed up in 1492.
我认为 K 到 12 年级的孩子在成长过程中不应该被告知这种谬论，即在我们 1492 年出现之前没有人在这里。
And one of these days I’m going to find a funder to help us put together Before the Americas and we’re going to make it part of the curriculum for every kid in the U.S. to know the full history of this country.
有一天，我将找到一位资助者来帮助我们制作《走向美洲之前》，我们将把它作为美国每个孩子了解这个国家完整历史的课程的一部分。
That’s a great project.
这是一个伟大的项目。
3:27:55 Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
Thank you for talking today.
谢谢你今天的发言。
Thank you for all the fascinating ideas that you put out into the world, and I can’t wait to hear your new course.
感谢您向世界提出的所有精彩想法，我迫不及待地想听您的新课程。
Thank you so much, Lex.
非常感谢你，莱克斯。
3:28:07 It was a real pleasure.
这真是一种乐趣。
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Ed Barnhart.
感谢您收听与埃德·巴恩哈特的对话。
3:28:10 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
为了支持这个播客，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。
And now let me leave you some words from Joseph Campbell.
现在让我给你们留下约瑟夫·坎贝尔的话。
“Life is but a mask worn on the face of death, and is death then but another mask?
“生命不过是戴在死亡脸上的一张面具，那么死亡又是另一张面具吗？
How many can say, asks the Aztec poet, that there is or is not a truth beyond?” Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
阿兹特克诗人问道，有多少人能说，是否存在超越真理？”感谢您的聆听，并希望下次再见。
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