物理学最大的谜团：反物质、暗能量与万有理论——唐·林肯

The following is a conversation with Don Lincoln, a particle physicist at Fermilab, who has spent decades working at the frontier of high energy physics.

以下是与费米实验室粒子物理学家唐·林肯的对话，他在高能物理前沿工作了数十年。

00:00 This was a mind-blowing and inspiring conversation.

这是一次令人兴奋和鼓舞人心的对话。

Don turned out to be one of my favorite people to talk to about physics.

事实证明，唐是我最喜欢谈论物理的人之一。

Truly a unique mind with that Richard Feynman ability of taking very complicated ideas and explaining them simply, without losing any of the essential, brilliant insights at the core of those ideas.

他确实是一个独特的头脑，具有理查德·费曼（Richard Feynman）那样的能力，能够接受非常复杂的想法并简单地解释它们，而不会丢失这些想法核心的任何基本的、辉煌的见解。

This is a Lex Fridman podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客。

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find ways to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on.

为了支持它，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商，您还可以在其中找到联系我、提出问题、提供反馈等的方式。

And now, dear friends, here’s Don Lincoln.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是唐·林肯。

00:49 In describing the search for theory of everything in physics, you describe the history of physics can be told effectively as a kind of history of unifications.

在描述对物理学中万有理论的探索时，你将物理学的历史描述为一种统一的历史。

There’s this centuries-long quest to show that these distinct phenomena are actually linked by some unified underlying principles.

几个世纪以来，人们一直在寻求证明这些不同的现象实际上是通过一些统一的基本原则联系在一起的。

Even starting with Newton, that you can think of the effort of physics as one is trying to unify- …

即使从牛顿开始，你也可以将物理学的努力视为试图统一——……

the laws of nature.

自然法则。

So I was wondering if we could talk through the history of unification-

所以我想知道我们是否可以谈谈统一的历史——

Sure

当然可以

…

……

01:25 that lens of physics.

物理的镜头。

There are, of course, lots of different ways to do physics, but the way that I would say that particle physicists, cosmologists do is they are trying to really find basically the underlying principles that govern the laws of nature.

当然，研究物理学有很多不同的方法，但我想说的是，粒子物理学家、宇宙学家所做的就是他们试图真正找到支配自然定律的基本原理。

01:28 If we go back, say, to the, I don’t know, 1650s or so, you’re the most brilliant person around, and you’ve noticed two things.

如果我们回到 1650 年代左右，我不知道，你是周围最聪明的人，并且你注意到了两件事。

One you’ve noticed is that when you trip, you fall.

您已经注意到，当您绊倒时，您就会摔倒。

That is the nature of gravity that we all experience day to day.

这就是我们每天都会经历的重力的本质。

But then there’s sort of astronomy, where you look out at the heavens and you see the stars march across the sky.

但还有一种天文学，当你仰望天空时，你会看到星星在天空中行进。

You see the planets move through the stars.

你会看到行星在恒星中移动。

And there, that seems to have absolutely nothing to do with what happens when you drop your sandwich and the dog grabs it from you.

在那里，这似乎与你掉下三明治而狗从你手中夺走时发生的情况完全无关。

So-

所以——

02:21 …

……

the brilliant thing was when Newton looked at that and he thought about, maybe the moon is falling, but it’s missing the Earth.

最精彩的是，当牛顿看到它时，他想到，也许月亮正在坠落，但它错过了地球。

So what we had is that in maybe 1650, you had what we might call the laws of celestial gravity, the gravity that governs the heavens, and terrestrial gravity, the gravity that is here on Earth.

所以我们所得到的是，也许在 1650 年，我们就得到了我们所说的天体引力定律，即支配天空的引力，以及地引力，即地球上的引力。

Now, we don’t think of it that way anymore.

现在，我们不再那样想了。

We think of it as just gravity.

我们认为它只是重力。

But at that time, that wasn’t at all obvious.

但在当时，这一点并不明显。

And in fact, if you look in the books, Newton’s theory is Newton’s law of universal gravity.

事实上，如果你看书，牛顿的理论就是牛顿万有引力定律。

The universal is there, and the reason is, is because he realized these two things that seemed to have nothing to do with one another were indeed one and the same.

普遍性是存在的，原因是因为他意识到这两件看似毫无关系的事情实际上是同一件事。

I mean, this is absolutely brilliant.

我的意思是，这绝对是太棒了。

03:06 I mean, Newton is arguably one of the most brilliant humans of which I’m ever aware.

我的意思是，牛顿可以说是我所知道的最聪明的人之一。

But at any rate, it is the first sort of easily to describe unification of physics that you can state in a way that sort of makes sense to modern- …

但无论如何，它是第一种容易描述的物理统一，你可以用一种对现代有意义的方式来表述——……

Humans.

人类。

I mean, you can go back farther than that, where people are talking about chemistry, the nature of atoms.

我的意思是，你可以追溯到更早的时候，人们正在谈论化学，原子的本质。

You go back to Democritus, who was wrong about very many things, but the idea that there was a smallest particulate form of matter is right.

你回到德谟克利特，他在很多事情上都错了，但物质存在最小颗粒形式的想法是正确的。

So it’s kind of funny.

所以这有点有趣。

You talk– You, you read the chemistry books, and they say that the idea of atoms goes back to Democritus, and, you know, he, his idea was that, like there was a smallest atom of oil, which was smooth, and it was smooth, of course, because, well, oil is smooth.

你说——你，你读化学书，他们说原子的概念可以追溯到德谟克利特，你知道，他，他的想法是，就像有一个最小的油原子，它是光滑的，当然，它是光滑的，因为，嗯，油是光滑的。

03:50 There was a smallest atom of vinegar because vinegar is tart and it pricks your tongue-

有一个最小的醋原子，因为醋是酸的，它会刺痛你的舌头-

03:54 …

……

so therefore, atoms were little sharp, pointy things.

因此，原子是一些尖锐的小东西。

And so he was wrong about a lot, but he was right about the idea that there was a small particle, and, and we now know a very– we have a very different concept than he did.

所以他在很多方面都错了，但他关于存在一个小粒子的想法是正确的，而且我们现在知道，我们有一个与他非常不同的概念。

So you can go back farther than that.

所以你可以追溯到更远的地方。

But getting the unification, there are more examples.

但得到统一后，例子就更多了。

For instance, if you go back to, say, 1830 or so, scientists were trying to understand electricity, for instance.

例如，如果你回到 1830 年左右，科学家们正试图了解电力。

And there was a lot going on.

发生了很多事情。

People really understood things.

人们真正了解了事情。

But at the time, you would have two phenomena that are familiar to us now.

但当时，你会看到两个我们现在熟悉的现象。

One is a magnet, which, you know, at the time, mostly magnets were, were simply little pieces of iron that had been magnetized and they could stick to steel.

一种是磁铁，你知道，当时大多数磁铁只是被磁化的小铁片，它们可以粘在钢上。

04:44 And then you had electricity, which was at the time they were generating little sparks that they could play and have fun with, or more broadly, a lightning bolt blazing across the sky.

然后就有了电，当时他们正在产生小火花，他们可以玩耍并享受其中，或者更广泛地说，闪电划过天空。

And so when you think about this, that lightning bolt and that little magnet seem to be really unrelated.

所以当你想到这一点时，那个闪电和那个小磁铁似乎真的无关。

05:02 But over the 1800s, a number of scientists were exploring little aspects of it.

但在 1800 年代，许多科学家正在探索它的一些小方面。

What happens when you run electricity through a wire?

当你通过电线通电时会发生什么？

It seems to make a magnetic field.

它似乎产生了磁场。

You know, they– There was a whole bunch of experiments and there were a lot of names.

你知道，他们——有一大堆实验，有很多名字。

But in about the 1860s or so, James Clerk Maxwell took all of those ideas that had been percolating around for the previous 50 years and wrote his laws of electromagnetism, and they’re really fascinating.

但大约在 1860 年代左右，詹姆斯·克拉克·麦克斯韦 (James Clerk Maxwell) 吸收了过去 50 年中一直存在的所有这些想法，并写下了他的电磁定律，它们确实令人着迷。

If you look at the laws of electromagnetism, they are– they’re differential equations or integral equations.

如果你看一下电磁定律，它们就是——它们是微分方程或积分方程。

But basically, what they say is on one side, you have a bunch of terms that have electricity in them, and then you have equals on the other side, a magnetism thing.

但基本上，他们所说的是，一方面，你有一堆带有电的术语，然后你在另一边有相同的术语，即磁性的东西。

05:50 So forgetting all of the mathematical symbols, you have electricity side equals a magnetism side.

因此，忘记所有的数学符号，电的一面等于磁的一面。

Electricity equals magnetism.

电等于磁。

And that is a staggering concept, the fact that these two things, a lightning bolt and the magnet that holds your kids’ art to the refrigerator, are one and the same.

这是一个令人震惊的概念，事实上，闪电和将孩子的艺术品固定在冰箱上的磁铁这两个东西是一回事。

And this was another case where electricity and magnetism became unified into electromagnetism.

这又是电和磁统一为电磁的一个例子。

So now we have two examples: one, gravity being unified, terrestrial and celestial gravity, and then electricity and magnetism.

那么现在我们有两个例子：一是引力统一，地引力和天引力，然后是电和磁。

So I’ll tell you about some more in a moment, but one thing that’s kind of important because the goal is, of course, to unify everything.

因此，我稍后会告诉您更多内容，但有一件事很重要，因为目标当然是统一一切。

06:30 That if I could do what I want to do, I would have some unified theory that would explain all the behavior of all energy, matter, space, and time, which is a grand goal.

如果我能做我想做的事，我就会有一些统一的理论来解释所有能量、物质、空间和时间的所有行为，这是一个宏伟的目标。

And we should say that maybe one of the goals of science more broadly, outside of physics even, is to construct models that can generalize the world.

我们应该说，也许更广泛的科学目标之一，甚至在物理学之外，就是构建能够概括世界的模型。

06:39 So if you look at Darwinian evolution- …

所以如果你看看达尔文进化论——……

that was a very beautiful theory that captures another layer of reality of, like, how this particular thing that we see here on Earth happens.

这是一个非常美丽的理论，它捕捉到了现实的另一层，比如我们在地球上看到的这个特殊的事情是如何发生的。

So when we talk about theory of everything in physics, that’s capturing a different layer of abstraction about the functioning of the universe.

因此，当我们谈论物理学中的万有理论时，这捕获了关于宇宙运行的不同抽象层。

Right.

正确的。

07:16 The whole Darwinian evolution, the fact that our genetics has significant overlap with the genetics of a banana is, is pretty staggering, is astonishing- that that works.

整个达尔文进化论，我们的遗传学与香蕉的遗传学有显着重叠的事实，是相当惊人的，令人惊讶的——这是有效的。

So that is amazing.

所以这太棒了。

But for at least the class of scientists that I am, what we think of is, well, sure, biology is interesting and all, but when you get right down to it, it’s caused– whatever happens in biology is caused by the movement of molecules.

但至少对于我这样的科学家来说，我们的想法是，好吧，当然，生物学很有趣，但是当你认真对待它时，它是由原因引起的——生物学中发生的任何事情都是由分子的运动引起的。

And then you say, “Well, that’s great and all, but molecules, they do what they do because they’re made of atoms.”

然后你说，“嗯，这很好，但是分子，它们做它们所做的事情是因为它们是由原子组成的。”

07:53 And then the next step is, well, atoms, that’s great, but atoms work the way they do because of the nucleus and the electrons, and then the nucleus is protons and neutrons.

然后下一步是原子，这很棒，但是原子的工作方式是因为原子核和电子，然后原子核就是质子和中子。

And so there are those of us, myself included, who want to dig down to the very, very bottom and find out what is the smallest building block of nature from which all of these other far more complex and interesting and abstract things are.

因此，我们中的一些人，包括我自己，想要深入挖掘，找出自然界的最小组成部分是什么，而所有其他更复杂、有趣和抽象的事物都是由它构成的。

But what is at the very, very bottom?

但最底层是什么？

And also, that’s great, but if you know what the smallest building blocks are, that doesn’t tell you the story.

而且，这很好，但如果你知道最小的构建块是什么，那并不能告诉你故事。

It’s like having a whole bunch of Legos, but not knowing how to put them together.

这就像拥有一大堆乐高积木，但不知道如何将它们组装在一起。

You also need to know how they interact, how they work, and so that’s why we study forces.

你还需要知道它们如何相互作用、如何工作，这就是我们研究力的原因。

08:36 So there are the various subatomic forces of which we’re familiar and for instance, electricity and magnetism are components of electromagnetism, which then governs the behavior of things like– This is amazing.

因此，存在着我们所熟悉的各种亚原子力，例如，电和磁是电磁力的组成部分，它控制着诸如此类的事物的行为——这太神奇了。

Electromagnetism explains, of course, electricity, magnetism, but it explains how light works.

当然，电磁学解释了电、磁，但它解释了光是如何工作的。

It explains how much of chemistry works.

它解释了化学的作用。

So electromagnetism, 1860 or ’70, the wonderful thing about that is if you take Maxwell’s equations and you apply a little bit of calculus, it’s very easy to see that the laws of electricity and the laws of magnetism combined together make what’s called a wave equation, which that shows that these electric and magnetic fields oscillate.

所以电磁学，1860 年或 70 年，其美妙之处在于，如果你采用麦克斯韦方程组并应用一点微积分，很容易看出电定律和磁定律结合在一起形成了所谓的波动方程，这表明这些电场和磁场会振荡。

09:23 They vary, and if you have something that’s varied, that’s a wave, and the wave then moves.

它们各不相同，如果你有一些变化的东西，那就是波浪，然后波浪就会移动。

And if you do the math, you find out that the speed at which these waves move is the speed of light.

如果你进行数学计算，你会发现这些波移动的速度就是光速。

And so people said, “Wow, the speed of light comes out of those equations.” And that had to be, I think, very persuasive.

所以人们说，“哇，光速是从这些方程中得出的。”我认为这必须非常有说服力。

And of course, electromagnetism also plays a really significant role in chemistry because after all, atoms are held together by electromagnetic forces.

当然，电磁力在化学中也发挥着非常重要的作用，因为毕竟原子是通过电磁力结合在一起的。

There’s more to how atoms work.

关于原子的工作原理还有更多内容。

There is all the quantum mechanics stuff.

这里有所有量子力学的东西。

But if you did not have electromagnetism, or if electromagnetism was very different, then atoms would be very different.

但如果没有电磁学，或者电磁学有很大不同，那么原子就会有很大不同。

So it plays a very big role in holding us together.

因此，它在将我们团结在一起方面发挥着非常重要的作用。

10:09 So it’s a staggering advance in science to have a good behavior on that.

因此，在这方面采取良好的行为是科学上的惊人进步。

And of course, being able to tame electromagnetism is why people can hear you when you do your podcast because through the miracles of the internet just– or just electricity running the computers.

当然，能够驯服电磁力就是为什么当你做播客时人们可以听到你的声音，因为通过互联网的奇迹——或者只是通过电力运行计算机。

I mean, this is a case, if I can get on a small soapbox, where people back then said, “Well, why are you messing around with magnets and sparks?” And who cares?

我的意思是，如果我能登上一个小肥皂盒，当时的人们会说：“好吧，你为什么要摆弄磁铁和火花呢？”谁在乎呢？

Well, that very fundamental digging into the laws of nature has spinoffs, and it has spinoffs– one of the big spinoffs is our entire technological society.

嗯，对自然法则的非常根本的挖掘会带来副产品，而且它也会带来副产品——最大的副产品之一就是我们整个技术社会。

10:55 Without being able to govern electricity, we’d still be farmers and shoemakers in cities.

如果无法管理电力，我们仍然会是城市里的农民和鞋匠。

We certainly would not have everything that we do, so off my soapbox.

我们当然不会拥有我们所做的一切，所以请离开我的演讲台。

But it’s really a lovely thing to show how this, this digging into deep, fundamental, not understood, mysterious things can, a hundred or two hundred years later, transform the world.

但这确实是一件可爱的事情，表明这种对深层的、基本的、不被理解的神秘事物的挖掘如何能够在一百二百年后改变世界。

11:20 And the type of science I do now, people often ask, “Well, what good is knowing about how the inside of atoms work, how the inside of quarks work?” And I don’t know the answer to that but just being a little more pragmatic, if I go back, say, a hundred years, where people were trying to understand how the protons and neutrons inside atoms held together, how they split, how they– how you could combine them and so forth, this has led to nuclear power.

对于我现在从事的科学类型，人们经常会问：“那么，了解原子内部如何工作、夸克内部如何工作有什么好处呢？”我不知道答案，但更务实一点，如果我回到一百年前，当时人们试图理解原子内部的质子和中子如何结合在一起，它们如何分裂，它们如何——如何将它们结合起来等等，这导致了核能。

Now, whatever you think about nuclear power, and some people like it and some people don’t, but it is powerful.

现在，无论你如何看待核能，有些人喜欢它，有些人不喜欢它，但它的威力很大。

It will generate energy for humanity, and it may be that is the path that we take as we move away from digging fossil fuels out of the ground.

它将为人类产生能源，这可能就是我们摆脱从地下开采化石燃料的道路。

Humanity is going to need power no matter what.

无论如何，人类都需要力量。

12:10 Nobody is going to go back to the way things were in the 1700s.

没有人会回到 1700 年代的状态。

And one enormous source of energy that is there for us to take if we so choose is the modification of the nucleus of atoms.

如果我们选择的话，我们可以利用的一种巨大能源就是原子核的改造。

Seemed to have absolutely nothing to do with anything, and yet it provides humanity with an opportunity, which of course requires that we think carefully of how we do that and, and if we want to, but it gives us something that we didn’t have before.

似乎与任何事情都毫无关系，但它却为人类提供了一个机会，这当然需要我们仔细考虑如何做到这一点，如果我们愿意的话，但它给了我们一些我们以前没有过的东西。

Yeah, it’s very clear that nuclear fusion and nuclear fission will unlock huge amount of energy that’s required for a civilization to flourish, but that’s almost like near term.

是的，很明显，核聚变和核裂变将释放文明繁荣所需的大量能源，但这几乎是短期的。

12:38 Longer term, you can think about things like we’ll talk about dark energy crisis- …

从长远来看，你可以考虑一些事情，比如我们将讨论暗能量危机——……

and antimatter.

和反物质。

Maybe if you figure out some of the mysteries around antimatter, that too would lead to energy sources, how to produce energy.

也许如果你弄清楚了反物质的一些奥秘，那也将带来能源，以及如何产生能量。

That too might lead to counterintuitive propulsion systems-

这也可能导致违反直觉的推进系统——

13:15 …

……

for us humans to travel through the universe.

让我们人类能够穿越宇宙。

Now, right now it seems far-fetched, too expensive, too complicated, too difficult, but breakthroughs in the fundamentals theoretical physics might lead us to unlock some incredible energy sources, incredible technologies that will allow humans to explore the universe.

现在看来，这似乎很牵强，太昂贵，太复杂，太困难，但基础理论物理学的突破可能会引导我们解锁一些令人难以置信的能源和令人难以置信的技术，使人类能够探索宇宙。

And of course, we should also mention that as always with technology, it’s a double-edged sword.

当然，我们还应该提到，与往常一样，技术是一把双刃剑。

It will most likely lead to the development of more dangerous weapons or- …

它很可能会导致更危险的武器的发展，或者……

other sources of harm.

其他伤害来源。

And then we as a civilization kinda have to walk that line and hope we figure out how to do more good than bad with the technologies we build.

然后，作为一个文明，我们必须走这条路，并希望我们能够弄清楚如何利用我们构建的技术做更多的好事而不是坏事。

Right.

正确的。

13:59 But we have to really remember, while people worry about nuclear weapons, which are admittedly very dangerous, and even nuclear power, which has waste that has to be dealt with, what science is doing is working out, finding power that nature has presented to us.

但我们必须真正记住，虽然人们担心核武器，这无疑是非常危险的，甚至担心核能，因为它有必须处理的废物，但科学正在做的是解决问题，寻找大自然赋予我们的力量。

This is not new.

这并不新鲜。

Fire is like that too.

火也是如此。

Fire can burn down your house or it can cook your steak.

火可以烧毁你的房子，也可以煮你的牛排。

Power is like that, and that’s just something that we have to understand as humanity, and that’s why this needs to be a– you know, when we talk about science, it has to be a broad conversation by all of society because what scientists can do is figure out how the world works.

权力就是这样，这就是我们作为人类必须理解的东西，这就是为什么这需要——你知道，当我们谈论科学时，它必须是全社会的广泛对话，因为科学家能做的是弄清楚世界是如何运作的。

Society has to figure out how we wish to apply that or not apply that.

社会必须弄清楚我们希望如何应用或不应用它。

Also, solving the mysteries and the puzzles of the universe in itself is effing awesome.

此外，解决宇宙本身的奥秘和谜题也是非常棒的。

It is.

这是。

14:56 It is.

这是。

So that means that that’s the thing that makes us human in part is looking at a thing and saying, “How does this work?” And then together a bunch of apes get together, like, poke the thing, kinda shake the thing.

所以这意味着我们之所以成为人类，部分原因就是看着一个东西并说：“这是如何运作的？”然后一群猩猩聚集在一起，就像，戳那个东西，有点摇晃那个东西。

14:58 And then over time you have rockets going all into space.

随着时间的推移，火箭将全部进入太空。

You build roads and bridges.

你修建道路和桥梁。

You build the internet.

你建立了互联网。

Anyway, so we talked about Newton, we talked about Maxwell.

无论如何，我们谈论了牛顿，我们谈论了麦克斯韦。

That takes us into 20th century in terms of unification.

这将我们带入了统一的 20 世纪。

There’s a guy named Einstein- …

有一个人叫爱因斯坦——

on whom you wrote a book, who did- …

你写了一本关于谁的书，谁做了——……

quite a lot of progress on the effort of unification.

统一努力取得了相当大的进展。

Sure.

当然。

15:33 So Einstein, he’s a pretty amazing guy.

所以爱因斯坦，他是一个非常了不起的人。

In 1905, he had his miracle year where he wrote multiple papers.

1905 年，他度过了奇迹般的一年，发表了多篇论文。

The one that most people know about is special relativity, where he showed something that makes no sense to anybody who’s not really dug into it very hard, and that is that two people experience time differently.

大多数人都知道的是狭义相对论，他展示了一些对于那些没有真正深入研究它的人来说毫无意义的东西，那就是两个人对时间的体验不同。

Time, you know, is a fascinating thing.

你知道，时间是一件令人着迷的东西。

We don’t really understand what time is, which is weird.

我们真的不明白时间是什么，这很奇怪。

You’d think that that’d be something we’d understand very well, but we really don’t.

你可能认为这是我们很容易理解的事情，但我们真的不明白。

We know a lot about it, but really understanding it, not so much.

我们对它了解很多，但真正了解它的却并不多。

But Newton thought that time was just universal for everyone, so my time, your time, some person’s time on Mars or on Alpha Centauri, everybody experienced time the same.

但牛顿认为时间对每个人来说都是普遍的，所以我的时间，你的时间，某人在火星或半人马座阿尔法星上的时间，每个人都经历过相同的时间。

16:25 What Einstein showed was that that wasn’t the case, that different people moving at different speeds with respect to one another experience time differently, which is absolutely a mind-blowing concept.

爱因斯坦所证明的事实并非如此，不同的人以不同的速度相对于彼此移动时体验不同的时间，这绝对是一个令人兴奋的概念。

Now, most people think that Einstein then said, well, he invented spacetime, that space and time are the same thing, and he was behind that.

现在，大多数人认为爱因斯坦随后说，嗯，他发明了时空，空间和时间是同一件事，而他是其幕后推手。

But that actual insight came from one of his teachers, a guy by the name of Minkowski, who looked at Einstein’s equations.

但这种真正的洞察力来自他的一位老师，一位名叫闵可夫斯基的人，他研究了爱因斯坦的方程。

Minkowski was a little bit more mathematically inclined than Einstein, and he saw that if you look at the equations, you have basically one person’s space and time equals some numbers times this person’s space and time.

闵可夫斯基比爱因斯坦更倾向于数学，他发现如果你看一下方程，你就会发现一个人的空间和时间基本上等于一些数字乘以这个人的空间和时间。

And so that’s kind of a staggering thing.

这是一件令人震惊的事情。

17:14 So that is where Einstein and Minkowski really did this unbelievable concept that space and time are actually pretty much the same thing.

这就是爱因斯坦和闵可夫斯基真正提出的令人难以置信的概念：空间和时间实际上几乎是同一件事。

That runs afoul of our understanding of how the world works because time just moves, it’s continuous.

这与我们对世界如何运作的理解相冲突，因为时间只是移动，它是连续的。

We know what it is at a visceral level and an experiential level.

我们从本能层面和经验层面知道它是什么。

We might not understand it at a formal level, but we know what time is.

我们可能无法在正式层面上理解它，但我们知道时间是什么。

It’s what keeps, makes today today and not yesterday or tomorrow.

正是它让今天成为今天，而不是昨天或明天。

Space is a little different.

空间有点不同。

You can walk somewhere, you can walk back, you can move around.

你可以走到某个地方，你可以走回来，你可以四处走动。

You have more freedom to move in space than you have to move in time.

与在时间上移动相比，你在空间上移动有更多的自由。

You can always move forward in time.

你总是可以及时前进。

It’s just moving backwards that turns out to be a little more difficult.

只是向后移动会变得更加困难。

17:59 But yeah, Einstein’s understanding that that is the case, it caused everybody to think about the world very, very differently, and that was in 1908 when Minkowski really laid it out in a strict spacetime.

但是，是的，爱因斯坦对这种情况的理解，它导致每个人对世界的思考都非常非常不同，那是 1908 年，明可夫斯基真正将其置于严格的时空中。

And that also led to the work on special relativity, led to the speed limit, the speed of light.

这也导致了狭义相对论的研究，导致了速度极限，即光速。

Well, it was a premise.

嗯，这是一个前提。

18:21 He had two premises.

他有两个处所。

One was that the laws of nature are the same for everybody, so if you’re moving at some speed, or if I’m moving at some speed, I can say I’m not moving and saying you’re moving at some speed.

一是自然法则对每个人都是一样的，所以如果你以某种速度移动，或者我以某种速度移动，我可以说我没有移动，而说你以某种速度移动。

That’s not controversial.

这没有争议。

That is what we call Galilean relativity.

这就是我们所说的伽利略相对论。

It’s from hundreds of years ago.

这是几百年前的事了。

But what Einstein said that was controversial was that everybody measures that the speed of light is the same.

但爱因斯坦说的有争议的是，每个人测量的光速都是一样的。

Irrespective of how we’re moving with respect to each other, you’ll measure the speed of light to be a number, I’ll measure the speed of light to a number, and that’s very, very different from what Newton would’ve said or Galileo or any of the old guys.

无论我们如何相对于彼此移动，你都会将光速测量为一个数字，我会将光速测量为一个数字，这与牛顿或伽利略或任何老家伙所说的非常非常不同。

19:03 And it was taking those two things together that caused all of the weirdnesses of special relativity.

正是将这两件事结合在一起才导致了狭义相对论的所有怪异之处。

Now, you could then very easily say, well, that second premise that everybody measures the speed of light to the same is just dumb, and y- it– that, you know, you could test that.

现在，你可以很容易地说，好吧，第二个前提，即每个人测量的光速都相同，这只是愚蠢的，而且你知道，你可以测试它。

So that’s where testing relativity comes in.

这就是测试相对论的用武之地。

And Einstein’s equations, which include those two assumptions, it predicts the behavior of everything perfectly well.

爱因斯坦方程包含这两个假设，它完美地预测了一切的行为。

Now we’ve actually measured done experiments where we can say that the speed of light is the same for everybody.

现在我们实际上已经测量了完成的实验，我们可以说光速对于每个人来说都是相同的。

That’s not how that’s been in the beginning.

一开始并不是这样的。

It was really that assumption leads to predictions.

确实是这种假设导致了预测。

The predictions are true, so the assumption is true.

预测是正确的，所以假设也是正确的。

19:51 Now, there is a– for, for those people, for your viewers who wanna say, “Well, how do you measure that the speed of light is the same for everyone?” The particle physicists do this, and the way you do this is the following: There are some subatomic particles that when they decay, they emit light.

现在，对于那些想要说“好吧，你如何衡量每个人的光速是否相同？”的人，你的观众？粒子物理学家这样做，你这样做的方式如下：有一些亚原子粒子，当它们衰变时，它们会发光。

That’s their decay product.

那是他们的衰变产物。

And so you collide two things together so you know when the particle was created, then you have surround your collision point by a detector, and you measure how long it takes for light to get to your detector, and by God, it’s the speed of light, which it should be.

所以你将两个物体碰撞在一起，这样你就知道粒子何时产生，然后你用探测器包围你的碰撞点，你测量光到达探测器需要多长时间，上帝啊，这就是光速，它应该是。

However, sometimes in these collisions, some of these subatomic particles you make are coming out at very high speed.

然而，有时在这些碰撞中，你制造的一些亚原子粒子会以非常高的速度出现。

20:39 They might be coming out at ninety-five or ninety-seven or very large fraction of the speed of light, and then they decay into photons.

它们的速度可能是光速的九十五、九十七或很大一部分，然后衰变成光子。

And so you measure how long it takes for the photon to get to your detector, and it says it’s– light travels at the speed of light.

所以你测量光子到达探测器需要多长时间，它会说——光以光速传播。

Now, if it were that if Einstein’s conjecture was incorrect, you’d have a particle coming out at near the speed of light, it would be decaying into a particle traveling at the speed of light, then that particle should have traveled at, say, two times the speed of light or something like that, so it should have taken half as much time to get to the detector, but it doesn’t.

现在，如果爱因斯坦的猜想是错误的，那么你会有一个粒子以接近光速的速度出现，它会衰变成一个以光速传播的粒子，那么这个粒子应该以两倍光速或类似的速度传播，所以它应该花费一半的时间才能到达探测器，但事实并非如此。

21:16 So this is a hard, serious measurement that shows that something, you know, we, we can measure the speed at which light comes out of this stationary created particle, and it’s the speed of light.

所以这是一个艰难而严肃的测量，它表明我们可以测量光从这个静止的创造粒子发出的速度，这就是光速。

Then we can measure what the speed is of it coming out of something that’s moving, and it’s still the speed of light.

然后我们可以测量运动物体的速度，它仍然是光速。

So that is an actual measurement, but that is not something that was possible in Einstein’s day- …

所以这是一个实际的测量，但这在爱因斯坦时代是不可能的——……

but it is now.

但现在就是这样。

Just to take a small tangent, how weird is it in the full ranking of weirdness that is physics, how weird is it that there’s that speed limit of the speed of light?

稍微切题一下，在物理学的全部怪异排名中，光速的速度极限有多怪异？

Well, I have to tell you, when I first encountered this, it’s pretty freaking weird.

好吧，我必须告诉你，当我第一次遇到这个时，这非常奇怪。

21:53 It, like, pegs the weird meter.

它就像固定了奇怪的仪表。

But as you become more familiar with it, as you become more, more comfortable with the idea, the thing to remember is the speed of light; it’s the speed of light through spacetime.

但当你对它越来越熟悉，当你对这个想法越来越适应时，要记住的是光速；它是光速。这是光穿过时空的速度。

Once you embrace that, that makes a whole ton of sense.

一旦你接受了这一点，那就很有意义了。

It all of a sudden makes everything fall much more into place.

突然之间，一切都变得更加井井有条。

I think that there is an ultimate speed isn’t that shocking.

我认为有一个极限速度并不令人震惊。

It just simply says that it’s a property of space in the same way that there is, you know, space can transmit a certain strength electric field.

它只是简单地说，它是空间的一种属性，就像空间可以传输一定强度的电场一样。

It can support certain things.

它可以支持某些事情。

22:41 Whatever space is, and we don’t know what space is, but whatever it is, it has the capability of transmitting these things at that one speed through space or time, and everything else comes from our insisting that we keep space and time different.

不管空间是什么，我们不知道空间是什么，但不管它是什么，它都有能力以一种速度通过空间或时间传递这些东西，而其他一切都来自于我们坚持让空间和时间保持不同。

That’s, that’s how I view it, and at least for me, once I accepted that, it all became very comfortable.

就是这样，我就是这么看的，至少对我来说，一旦接受了这一点，一切都变得很舒服。

So the nature of my question actually here- …

所以我的问题的本质实际上是——……

23:06 that will apply over and over is trying to empathize, trying to put ourselves in the shoes of the people before space and time are unified- …

这将一遍又一遍地适用于尝试换位思考，尝试在空间和时间统一之前将自己置于人们的立场上——……

into spacetime and really experience and think through how difficult of a leap is that.

进入时空，真正体验和思考那是多么困难的飞跃。

Huge.

巨大的。

The reason I sort of say that is we are now in the modern day in the twenty-first century, and of course, we’re gonna have to make leaps like that in our future.

我这样说的原因是我们现在正处于二十一世纪的现代，当然，我们的未来也必须实现这样的飞跃。

23:25 So what are the unifications we’re not seeing in front of our eyes?

那么，哪些统一是我们在眼前看不到的呢？

So for example, there’s so many examples through your work, through your lectures of Paul Dirac taking antimatter seriously.

例如，通过你的工作，通过你关于保罗·狄拉克认真对待反物质的讲座，有很多例子。

Looking at what the math shows and saying, “I really think this thing exists.” I mean, it just sounds insane.

看看数学显示的结果，然后说：“我真的认为这个东西存在。”我的意思是，这听起来很疯狂。

It does.

确实如此。

And so I think this is a good warm-up.

所以我认为这是一个很好的热身。

24:00 The space-time unification- …

时空统一——……

is a good warm-up as we march through the twentieth century ’cause it gets, in my view at least, weirder and weirder, even with Einstein himself.

当我们迈入二十世纪时，这是一个很好的热身，因为至少在我看来，它变得越来越奇怪，即使是爱因斯坦本人也是如此。

Well, let me give you an even more basic example, sodium and chloride.

好吧，让我举一个更基本的例子，钠和氯。

24:13 Sodium is an explosive metal.

钠是一种爆炸​​性金属。

You put it in water and it’s kind of neat.

你把它放进水里，它就很干净了。

You put it in water, and it just, it doesn’t quite explode, but it gets hot, and it pops around.

你把它放进水里，它并没有完全爆炸，但它会变热，然后四处弹出。

Chlorine, it’s a gas.

氯气，它是一种气体。

It’s going to kill you.

它会杀了你。

So these two things are deadly.

所以这两件事是致命的。

They’re awful.

他们太糟糕了。

And yet when you mix them, you put it on your food at night.

然而，当你把它们混合在一起时，你就会把它放在晚上的食物上。

It’s salt, right?

是盐，对吗？

And so this is a case where this whole, A, unification and B, this deeper understanding, in this case of chemistry, of how two things that are dangerous can be brought together and turned into something not only innocuous, but necessary for human life.

因此，在这个例子中，A、统一和B，在化学的例子中，这种更深刻的理解，即两种危险的东西如何能够结合在一起，变成不仅无害，而且对人类生活必需的东西。

And so this is not unusual, what you’re describing.

所以你所描述的情况并不罕见。

25:03 I mean, when you think about it, forget about everything else, just the fact that, you know, we tell little kids that the world is made of atoms.

我的意思是，当你思考这个问题时，忘记其他一切，只考虑一个事实，你知道，我们告诉小孩子世界是由原子组成的。

Now, that’s crazy.

现在，这太疯狂了。

Most people have never seen atoms, and yet nobody really doubts it anymore.

大多数人从未见过原子，但没有人真正怀疑它。

And I think it’s just a case of familiarity, and then the culture slowly accepts it, and it’s then, it’s real even without the evidence.

我认为这只是一种熟悉的情况，然后文化慢慢地接受它，然后，即使没有证据，它也是真实的。

In fact, one of the courses you described there how we know what we know, I think that’s a valid question.

事实上，你在那里描述的一门课程我们如何知道我们所知道的，我认为这是一个有效的问题。

How do we know there are atoms?

我们怎么知道有原子？

And of course, there are ways we do.

当然，我们有一些方法可以做到。

And by the way, on that front, I would love to go through how we know the building blocks in the universe as we march towards quarks.

顺便说一句，在这方面，我很想了解一下当我们迈向夸克时我们如何了解宇宙的组成部分。

25:35 That, in the course that you mentioned, is one of the most fascinating things of this philosophy of atoms being around for a very long time.

在你提到的课程中，这是长期以来存在的原子哲学中最令人着迷的事情之一。

Then you concretize and you actually can prove or have strong observations that indicate that there is atoms, and then there is a nucleus, there is electrons, there is photons, there is quarks, and I mean, it gets weirder and weirder, and now we’re facing the mystery is there’s building blocks even smaller than that.

然后你具体化，你实际上可以证明或有强有力的观察表明存在原子，然后有原子核，有电子，有光子，有夸克，我的意思是，它变得越来越奇怪，现在我们面临的谜团是有比这更小的构建块。

26:12 But anyway, Einstein, turns out, didn’t just do special relativity.

但无论如何，事实证明，爱因斯坦不仅仅研究狭义相对论。

By the way, I really think he deserves three Nobel Prizes.

顺便说一句，我真的认为他应该获得三项诺贝尔奖。

He got it for photoelectric effect.

他是因为光电效应而得到的。

The fact that he didn’t get it for general relativity is a crime against humanity.

他没有得到广义相对论的事实是反人类罪。

I don’t understand.

我不明白。

Obviously should have gotten it for general relativity and special relativity.

显然应该得到广义相对论和狭义相对论。

I mean, I think special relativity is separate from general relativity in terms as far as Nobel Prizes go.

我的意思是，我认为就诺贝尔奖而言，狭义相对论与广义相对论是分开的。

So general relativity is another unification.

所以广义相对论是另一种统一。

Yes, that’s right.

是的，没错。

26:42 What Einstein realized was that if you were in a rocket ship and the rocket ship was a very quiet rocket ship and it was accelerating, it would feel like you were experiencing gravity.

爱因斯坦意识到，如果你在一艘火箭飞船里，而且这艘火箭飞船是一艘非常安静的火箭飞船，而且它正在加速，你会感觉自己正在经历重力。

And so as you say, it’s one of his happiest moments when he realized that acceleration and gravity feel very much the same.

正如你所说，当他意识到加速度和重力感觉非常相同时，这是他最快乐的时刻之一。

What I’m impressed by is that idea, which is already a pretty neat idea, somehow led him to take his space-time idea, take this acceleration gravity idea, and realize that he could describe gravity as the bending of space-time.

令我印象深刻的是这个想法，这已经是一个非常巧妙的想法，不知何故引导他接受了他的时空想法，接受了加速重力的想法，并意识到他可以将重力描述为时空的弯曲。

Space-time being constant like east, west, north, south, that’s already hard enough.

时空东、西、北、南恒定，这已经够难的了。

But now he’s saying, “Well, you know, take your map and crinkle it and bend it,” and so forth, and that’s gravity.

但现在他说，“好吧，你知道，拿起你的地图，把它弄皱、弯曲”等等，这就是重力。

That is a staggering, mind-blowing idea.

这是一个令人震惊、令人兴奋的想法。

I guess, I wonder if you can comment on what do you think is the idea generation process that leads to that.

我想，我想知道你是否可以评论一下你认为导致这一点的想法生成过程是什么。

27:40 So probably an Einstein case has to start with what if gravity is itself space-time geometry?

因此，爱因斯坦的案例可能必须从如果引力本身就是时空几何开始呢？

You have to have a thought like that, right?

你一定有这样的想法吧？

Yes, I think so.

是的，我想是的。

27:59 There’s a lot about science.

有很多关于科学的内容。

There’s, of course, knowing what went before.

当然，知道之前发生了什么。

There is knowing the mathematics that allows you to figure out the implications of your theory.

了解数学可以让你弄清楚你的理论的含义。

There is the discipline to argue with yourself and other people because most ideas are wrong.

与自己和他人争论是有纪律的，因为大多数想法都是错误的。

But then there’s what you just described, that intuitive spark, and that is something that is very, very difficult to create.

但还有你刚才描述的那种直觉火花，这是非常非常难以创造的。

There’s a reason that we venerate these people, is because it is an unusual feature, and most people only have that aha moment once in their lifetime, if they have it at all.

我们尊敬这些人是有原因的，因为这是一个不寻常的特征，大多数人一生中只会有一次这样的顿悟时刻，如果他们有的话。

28:40 And then there’s a tricky business because I’m sure you do, and I get a lot of letters from creative thinkers who don’t have all of the history and the mathematical discipline and the self-critique that’s necessary.

然后还有一件棘手的事情，因为我相信你会这样做，而且我收到了很多来自创造性思想家的来信，他们不具备所有的历史和数学学科以及必要的自我批评。

And so they come up with these ideas, and often it’s easy to see where they just don’t play out.

因此，他们提出了这些想法，但通常很容易看出它们在哪些方面没有发挥作用。

So in order to be that person who changes the way we see the world, ideas themselves are not enough.

因此，要想成为改变我们看待世界的方式的人，想法本身是不够的。

These creative ideas, that’s not enough.

这些创意还不够。

You need it with the discipline and the critique, and it’s that amalgam of those things that you know, make you a genius that history remembers.

你需要纪律和批评，正是你所知道的这些事情的混合体，使你成为历史铭记的天才。

But it’s hard to know.

但这很难知道。

29:26 In a field of people you might be tempted to call crazy, there could be geniuses there, and it’s hard to know which is which.

在一个你可能会被称为疯子的领域里，可能存在天才，但很难分清哪个是哪个。

We should mention that Einstein himself couldn’t see the genius in quantum mechanics initially, couldn’t see the correctness, I should say.

我们应该提到，爱因斯坦本人最初看不到量子力学的天才，看不到正确性，我应该说。

So he could see the insanity of gravity bending space-time, but quantum mechanics was too weird for Einstein.

所以他可以看到重力弯曲时空的疯狂，但量子力学对爱因斯坦来说太奇怪了。

In all fairness, it’s weird for me too.

平心而论，这对我来说也很奇怪。

29:57 But…

但是……

Okay.

好的。

…

……

30:01 but the thing is, even while that is true, and Einstein maybe spent the last few years of his life trying to, to blend electricity and magnetism and gravity in a, a single thing, and he was unsuccessful, but he still was a very, very valuable critic-

但事实是，即使这是事实，爱因斯坦也许在生命的最后几年里试图将电、磁和引力融合成一个单一的东西，他没有成功，但他仍然是一个非常非常有价值的批评家——

30:20 …

……

of quantum mechanics.

量子力学。

It’s not that he didn’t understand it, because he did understand it.

他不是不明白，因为他确实明白。

He thought about the implications and all this quantum entanglement business, you know, not all of it.

他考虑了其中的含义和所有量子纠缠业务，你知道，但不是全部。

But he was responsible for saying, “Well, if you’re right, then this.” And of course, then people went out and found out that, that Einstein’s implication of quantum mechanics was real, and so they could say, “See?

但他有责任说：“好吧，如果你是对的，那就这样吧。”当然，后来人们发现，爱因斯坦的量子力学含义是真实的，所以他们可以说，“看到了吗？

Quantum mechanics is real.” So, you know, he was thinking deeply about it, and he was doing exactly that thing I said.

量子力学是真实的。”所以，你知道，他正在深入思考这件事，而且他正在做我说的那件事。

There’s that spark idea, but there’s that critique idea.

有那种火花的想法，但也有那种批评的想法。

30:54 And if you’re able to critique an idea, you might kill it.

如果你能够批评一个想法，你可能会扼杀它。

And that is—it’s always depressing when I have this brilliant idea and it gets killed, but it’s better to be killed than to keep it around and waste time on it.

也就是说，当我有一个绝妙的想法却被扼杀时，总是令人沮丧，但被扼杀总比保留它并浪费时间要好。

And so he was, in that case, not generating the aha.

因此，在这种情况下，他并没有产生啊哈。

What he was saying is, “All right, let’s take your aha.

他所说的是：“好吧，让我们接受你的啊哈。

Let’s see it’s right.

让我们看看它是否正确。

What does it mean?

这意味着什么？

It means this.” That allows people to go test it, and so he was contributing very crucially to that other part of scientific advancement, which is not just the aha moment, but the beat it to death, test it-

就是这个意思。”这让人们可以去测试它，所以他对科学进步的其他部分做出了非常重要的贡献，这不仅仅是顿悟时刻，而是把它打死，测试它——

31:37 …

……

critique it, and make sure it’s real.

批评它，并确保它是真实的。

And it’s only after all of that has been done that you really assure you’re right.

只有在完成所有这些之后，您才能真正确信自己是对的。

And that’s why science is such a powerful tool.

这就是为什么科学是如此强大的工具。

It is that combative, just downright kinda jerky critique that most people don’t like.

大多数人不喜欢这种好斗的、完全生涩的批评。

They don’t like people saying, “Your ideas, you know, might be wrong.” But that is—it is crucial.

他们不喜欢人们说：“你知道，你的想法可能是错误的。”但这是至关重要的。

It is a crucial part of the scientific process.

它是科学过程的重要组成部分。

Plus, there’s that quote on the other side of it that I’ve heard you mention, which is, you know, “I believe your idea is crazy, but is it crazy enough?” Was that Niels Bohr?

另外，我听你提到过这句话的另一面，那就是，你知道，“我相信你的想法很疯狂，但它足够疯狂吗？”那是尼尔斯·玻尔吗？

I love that one.

我喜欢那个。

32:17 Yes, yes, we all agree that your idea is crazy, but is it crazy enough?

是的，是的，我们都同意你的想法很疯狂，但是它足够疯狂吗？

And there is some degree of taking those leaps of crazy, but it has to be backed with rigor.

在某种程度上，这些疯狂的飞跃是有必要的，但必须有严格的支持。

Right.

正确的。

And the unifications continue that as we take steps towards the Standard Model- …

当我们朝着标准模型迈出步伐时，统一仍在继续——……

32:28 which is such an incredible part of physics in the 20th century.

这是 20 世纪物理学中令人难以置信的一部分。

So can you describe that unification?

那么你能描述一下这种统一吗？

So, you know, we’re sort of jumping forward here now to the 1930s or thereabout.

所以，你知道，我们现在有点快进到 1930 年代左右。

32:39 And at, by that time, people had realized that there are four distinct forces that do not seem to be connected.

到那时，人们已经意识到有四种不同的力量似乎没有联系。

One is gravity, two is electromagnetism, and those are things people are relatively familiar with.

一是引力，二是电磁力，这些都是人们比较熟悉的东西。

But there are two other forces that only have any real importance inside the nucleus of atoms, which is why most people have no experience with them.

但还有另外两种力只在原子核内部才具有真正的重要性，这就是为什么大多数人对它们没有任何经验。

One is the strong nuclear force, which holds the nucleus of the atoms together, and the other one is what we call the weak nuclear force, which is responsible for some types of, of radioactivity.

一种是强核力，它将原子核结合在一起，另一种是我们所说的弱核力，它导致某些类型的放射性。

And since most people don’t play around with nuclei, and most people don’t play around with radioactivity, they don’t know what that is.

由于大多数人不玩原子核，也不玩放射性，所以他们不知道那是什么。

33:29 But by the ’30s, scientists had done enough experiments, done enough theorizing to, to say that there were these four forces, and that was already a triumph.

但到了 30 年代，科学家们已经做了足够多的实验，做了足够多的理论，可以说存在这四种力量，这已经是一个胜利。

I mean, we, in our goal for a theory of everything, we’d like to think that there is one force, which is what we’re talking about, the unification.

我的意思是，在我们建立万有理论的目标中，我们希望认为存在一种力量，这就是我们所说的统一。

Maybe these four forces are, are just different ways of looking at a single underlying force.

也许这四种力量只是看待单一潜在力量的不同方式。

But in the ’30s, that’s where we were.

但在20世纪30年代，我们就处于这样的境地。

There were the four forces.

那里有四种势力。

So we move ahead, and in the late ’50s and early ’60s, some people were thinking that maybe the weak nuclear force and electromagnetism actually were the same.

所以我们继续前进，在 50 年代末和 60 年代初，有些人认为弱核力和电磁力实际上是一样的。

So they were working on trying to bring together these two forces to show that they’re connected.

因此，他们正在努力将这两种力量结合在一起，以表明它们是相互联系的。

And it came true.

它成真了。

34:26 They were able to show that electricity and magnetism were actually two different facets of a single force that we now call the electroweak force.

他们能够证明电和磁实际上是我们现在称为电弱力的单一力的两个不同方面。

Now, the story that you’re told in articles about this, about what people have called the Higgs boson or the God particle, the story is very, very simplified because in 1964, there were three groups with six individuals who came up with important papers talking about what’s called the Higgs field.

现在，你在有关这个的文章中听到的故事，关于人们所谓的希格斯玻色子或上帝粒子的故事，这个故事非常非常简单，因为在 1964 年，有三个小组、六个人，他们提出了重要的论文，讨论所谓的希格斯场。

And I’ll get back to what that is in a minute, but the Higgs field is important.

我稍后会回到这是什么，但希格斯场很重要。

But it wasn’t until 1967, so three years later, that Steven Weinberg and some others actually unified electromagnetism and the weak force.

但直到 1967 年，也就是三年后，史蒂文·温伯格 (Steven Weinberg) 和其他一些人才真正统一了电磁力和弱力。

Sheldon Glashow, Abdus Salam, and Steven Weinberg successfully unified electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force, showing that at high energies—

谢尔顿·格拉肖 (Sheldon Glashow)、阿卜杜斯·萨拉姆 (Abdus Salam) 和史蒂文·温伯格 (Steven Weinberg) 成功地统一了电磁力和弱核力，表明在高能量下——

Right.

对。

…

……

35:30 These two forces were merged into a single electroweak force.

这两种力合并为一个电弱力。

Right, and that was in ’67, all right?

对了，那是 67 年的事，好吗？

35:34 Everybody talks about this thing happening in ’64, but it really wasn’t.

每个人都在谈论 64 年发生的这件事，但事实并非如此。

It happened over quite a few years actually.

实际上这已经发生了好几年了。

But all right, so now let’s— what you said is true.

但好吧，现在让我们——你说的是真的。

So Weinberg, Glashow, and Salam showed that electromagnetism and the weak force at high energies were the same.

因此温伯格、格拉肖和萨拉姆证明电磁力和高能弱力是相同的。

There was a problem, however, and the problem is that electromagnetism has an infinite range and we know that because we can see stars that are millions of light-years away.

然而，有一个问题，问题是电磁力的范围是无限的，我们知道这一点，因为我们可以看到数百万光年之外的恒星。

I mean, that shows you that the range of that force is essentially infinite.

我的意思是，这表明该力的范围本质上是无限的。

The weak force, however, basically becomes nonexistent on distances much smaller than the size of a proton.

然而，在远小于质子大小的距离上，弱力基本上变得不存在。

36:25 So that, you know, to say, “Oh, they’re the same,” and yet one can reach across the universe and one can’t reach out of an atom, well, that’s just dumb.

所以，你知道，说“哦，它们是一样的”，但一个人可以到达整个宇宙，而一个人却无法到达原子之外，嗯，这太愚蠢了。

I mean, the obvious thought here is, well, we just proved that that whole idea is stupid, so throw it away.

我的意思是，这里明显的想法是，好吧，我们刚刚证明整个想法是愚蠢的，所以把它扔掉。

Ridiculous.

荒谬的。

And that is where these ideas from 1964 came in and saved the day.

这就是 1964 年的想法发挥作用并扭转局面的原因。

So how can it be true that the electroweak force is real and electromagnetism and the weak force act so differently?

那么，电弱力是真实存在的，而且电磁力和弱力的作用如此不同，这怎么可能呢？

37:02 The way that could happen is if these forces were transmitted by a particle moving from one subatomic particle to the other.

可能发生的情况是，如果这些力是通过从一个亚原子粒子移动到另一个亚原子粒子的粒子传递的。

In the case of electromagnetism, it’s the photon.

就电磁力而言，它就是光子。

In the case of the weak force, we call them now the W and Z particles.

对于弱力，我们现在称它们为 W 和 Z 粒子。

So the idea is that Higgs and his colleagues came up with is saying, “All right, electroweak force is real.

因此，希格斯和他的同事提出的想法是：“好吧，弱电力是真实存在的。

The way we make it so that there is now an electromagnetic force and a weak force is the force-carrying particle of electromagnetism has no mass.

我们现在存在电磁力和弱力的方法是，电磁力携带的粒子没有质量。

The force-carrying particle of the weak force has a mass.” And so what was done is a field was postulated that there was this additional field that was kind of distinct from this electroweak field, and we call it the Higgs field.

弱力的带力粒子有质量。”因此，所做的就是假设有一个场，即存在一个与电弱场不同的附加场，我们称之为希格斯场。

And the Higgs field permeates all of space.

希格斯场遍布整个空间。

38:14 And here’s the kicker, some particles interact with the field, and some particles don’t interact with the field.

更重要的是，一些粒子与场相互作用，而一些粒子不与场相互作用。

The ones that interact with the field get mass, and the ones that don’t interact with the field don’t have mass.

与场相互作用的物质获得质量，而不与场相互作用的物质没有质量。

And so that’s the idea, is that the Higgs field gives the weak force particles mass.

这就是想法，希格斯场赋予弱力粒子质量。

However, the photon laughs at the Higgs field, doesn’t see it, and it has no mass.

然而，光子嘲笑希格斯场，看不到它，而且它没有质量。

And I should say here, going to Perplexity, the big-picture view, the Higgs field is the quantum field that fills all of space and gives many elementary particles, just as you’re saying, their mass through their interaction with it.

我应该在这里说，从宏观角度来看，希格斯场是一个充满整个空间的量子场，并通过与基本粒子的相互作用赋予许多基本粒子质量，正如你所说的那样。

38:40 The Higgs boson is the particle associated with ripples or excitations of this field.

希格斯玻色子是与该场的波纹或激发相关的粒子。

In modern particle physics, every type of particle corresponds to a field that exists everywhere.

在现代粒子物理学中，每种类型的粒子都对应于一个无处不在的场。

The Higgs field is one such scalar field, meaning at each point in space, it has a single numerical value rather than a direction.

希格斯场就是这样的标量场，这意味着在空间中的每个点，它都有一个数值而不是一个方向。

The Higgs field differs from most other fields because even in empty space—empty in quotes, by the way, empty space—its average value is not zero.

希格斯场与大多数其他场不同，因为即使在空白空间（引号中为空，顺便说一下，空白空间），其平均值也不为零。

This non-zero vacuum value is what enables it to endow particles with mass.

这种非零真空值使其能够赋予粒子质量。

Right.

正确的。

39:31 So let’s talk about something a little more familiar just to try and hang some intuition on those words.

因此，让我们来谈谈一些更熟悉的东西，只是为了尝试对这些词有一些直觉。

Awesome.

惊人的。

All right, so right in front of us, there is a gravitational field.

好吧，就在我们面前，有一个引力场。

39:39 Now- …

现在——……

you can’t see it, but right there.

你看不到它，但就在那里。

Right there.

就在那里。

Check it out.

一探究竟。

If I were to take something, a pen or whatever, and put it there, it feels a force, and it falls.

如果我拿一些东西，一支笔或者其他什么东西，把它放在那里，就会感觉到一股力量，然后它就会掉下来。

Very insightful, I know.

我知道，非常有洞察力。

So we have the gravity field, and we have the pen that has a mass, and the mass and the gravity field interact, and it drops.

所以我们有重力场，我们有一支有质量的笔，质量和重力场相互作用，它就会下降。

Now— …

现在——……

if we had another-

如果我们还有另一个-

I have a-

我有一个-

Yes.

是的。

…

……

40:09 object for you.

为你准备的对象。

All right, so like-

好吧，就像这样——

Demonstration purposes.

示范目的。

40:10 This is great.

这太棒了。

Performance art.

行为艺术。

40:11 Here we go.

开始了。

This is great.

这太棒了。

This thing has mass, and we drop it.

这个东西有质量，我们把它扔掉。

40:13 How remarkable.

多么了不起啊。

It falls.

它掉下来了。

But when we step back and think about what really happens, it’s the mass of this thing and the interaction with this invisible field we see here.

但当我们退后一步思考真正发生的事情时，就会发现这是这个东西的质量以及我们在这里看到的与这个看不见的场的相互作用。

That’s what gives this weight.

这就是赋予这个重量的原因。

Now, I have this particle here that you can’t see, but it’s there.

现在，我这里有一个你看不到的粒子，但它就在那里。

It has no mass.

它没有质量。

And I leave it there.

我把它留在那里。

Well, since it has no mass, it doesn’t feel gravity.

嗯，因为它没有质量，所以感觉不到重力。

It’s still floating there.

它仍然漂浮在那里。

40:43 And that is really all the Higgs field is.

这就是希格斯场的全部。

Some particles have effectively what you could call the Higgs charge that interacts and sees the field, and other particles don’t.

有些粒子实际上具有所谓的希格斯电荷，可以相互作用并看到场，而其他粒子则没有。

And that is really what you read just basically means.

这就是你所读到的基本含义。

Now, it’s kinda neat because in the ordinary day, there is a Higgs field right there, and the Higgs field is not zero, just like gravity is not zero, and things will get mass.

现在，它有点整洁，因为在平常的日子里，那里有一个希格斯场，希格斯场不为零，就像重力不为零一样，物体会获得质量。

But at super high energies, the Higgs field, the strength of the Higgs field goes to zero.

但在超高能量下，希格斯场，希格斯场的强度为零。

So whether things have mass or whether they have a Higgs charge or not, they have no charge– or they have the Higgs charge, Higgs field zero, they don’t interact.

因此，无论物体是否有质量，或者是否具有希格斯电荷，它们都不带电荷，或者它们具有希格斯电荷，希格斯场为零，它们不会相互作用。

It has no mass.

它没有质量。

41:25 So that’s kind of what Weinberg and Salam and Glashow said, is at very high energies, the Higgs field is zero.

这就是温伯格、萨拉姆和格拉肖所说的，在非常高的能量下，希格斯场为零。

Since the Higgs field is zero, the weak force particles don’t feel mass, and therefore, they can travel at the speed of light, just like the photon does, and everything’s happy.

由于希格斯场为零，弱力粒子感觉不到质量，因此，它们可以像光子一样以光速传播，一切都很顺利。

41:45 It is when the universe cooled down.

那是宇宙冷却的时候。

After the Big Bang, it was very hot, very high energy.

大爆炸之后，它非常热，能量非常高。

Nothing had mass.

没有任何东西有质量。

The universe cooled, and at a certain temperature, what happened is the Higgs field turned on.

宇宙冷却，在一定温度下，希格斯场打开。

And at the moment it turned on, it gave mass to the weak force particles, did not give mass to the photon.

在它打开的那一刻，它给了弱力粒子质量，但没有给光子质量。

So that’s what we call electroweak symmetry breaking; so it’s a mouthful.

这就是我们所说的电弱对称性破缺；所以这很拗口。

But all it says is there was a moment in time early in the history of the universe at 10 to the minus 12 seconds after the Big Bang, the Higgs field turned on and particles got mass.

但它所说的只是宇宙历史早期的某个时刻，即大爆炸后 10 到负 12 秒，希格斯场开启，粒子获得质量。

So that’s the whole idea.

这就是整个想法。

So this is another really neat thing.

所以这是另一件非常巧妙的事情。

So the electroweak symmetry theory doesn’t need Higgs because that only really applies at very, very high energies.

因此，电弱对称理论不需要希格斯玻色子，因为它只适用于非常非常高的能量。

42:36 But in order to make it work at low energies, you need to fix the theory, and you need to fix the theory by effectively putting a Band-Aid on the theory.

但为了让它在低能量下工作，你需要修正理论，你需要通过有效地在理论上贴上创可贴来修正理论。

Higgs theory is just a Band-Aid on top of electroweak symmetry theory, and that is the Band-Aid that fixes it because it gives mass to particles at low energy.

希格斯理论只是电弱对称理论之上的一个创可贴，而这正是修复它的创可贴，因为它为低能粒子提供了质量。

But how does then the Higgs- this Band-Aid, the field and the Higgs boson come into play on the experimental front, on the evidence-

但是希格斯粒子——这个创可贴、场和希格斯玻色子如何在实验前线、证据上发挥作用——

Okay.

好的。

…

……

43:07 discovery front?

发现前沿？

Right.

正确的。

So what is this Higgs boson thing then?

那么希格斯玻色子到底是什么？

Okay, excellent.

好的，非常好。

43:10 So we have never seen the Higgs field.

所以我们从未见过希格斯场。

Higgs field is a hypothetical theoretical thing.

希格斯场是一个假设的理论事物。

But that is true of most of our fields.

但我们的大多数领域都是如此。

We’ve never seen the electromagnetic field.

我们从未见过电磁场。

We’ve never seen the gravity field.

我们从未见过重力场。

We’ve seen the effect of the field.

我们已经看到了场的效果。

And so all of these theories are now what we call quantum field theories, and that– the whole idea of quantum fields is if you have a quantum field, that field can vibrate like a drumhead.

因此，所有这些理论现在都是我们所说的量子场论，量子场的整个想法是，如果你有一个量子场，那么该场可以像鼓皮一样振动。

And so it doesn’t vibrate just exactly like a drumhead, but it vibrates locally.

因此它并不像鼓面那样振动，而是局部振动。

So you can have specific localized vibrations, and those specific localized vibrations are the particles.

所以你可以有特定的局部振动，而这些特定的局部振动就是粒子。

In the electromagnetic field, the vibration is the photon.

在电磁场中，振动就是光子。

In the Higgs field, the vibration is the Higgs boson.

在希格斯场中，振动的是希格斯玻色子。

43:59 And so what we can do is not see the field, but we can actually excite the field, make it vibrate, and detect the vibrations.

所以我们能做的不是看到场，但我们实际上可以激发场，使其振动并检测振动。

So the Higgs boson idea was predicted in sixty-four.

因此，希格斯玻色子的想法在六十四年就被预言了。

It became useful in sixty-seven, and then scientists started looking for it.

它在六十七年变得有用，然后科学家开始寻找它。

So in the early 2000s, people were starting to think that we had built particle accelerators powerful enough to actually to be able to create these vibrations and detect them.

因此，在 2000 年代初，人们开始认为我们已经建造了足够强大的粒子加速器，实际上能够产生这些振动并检测它们。

So the accelerator that was working at the time was a large particle accelerator outside Chicago at Fermilab called the Tevatron.

因此，当时正在运行的加速器是芝加哥郊外费米实验室的一台大型粒子加速器，称为 Tevatron。

44:44 And we were colliding protons and antimatter protons at near the speed of light at very high energy, and that was the accelerator at which the top quark was discovered in ninety-five.

我们正在以非常高的能量以接近光速的速度对质子和反物质质子进行碰撞，这就是九十五年发现顶夸克的加速器。

But we had upgraded our apparatus.

但我们已经升级了我们的设备。

We had ten times the number of collisions per second.

我们每秒的碰撞次数是原来的十倍。

We had slightly more energy, and we were banging the protons and the antimatter protons together, hoping that we would actually find the Higgs boson.

我们有稍微多一点的能量，我们将质子和反物质质子撞击在一起，希望我们能真正找到希格斯玻色子。

Can you actually back up a little bit and look at the bigger picture?

你真的能退后一点，看看更大的图景吗？

45:09 So Fermilab has this legendary accelerator that there’s also a personal story with you connected to it because, I mean, there’s a million questions I wanna ask you, and we’ll ask you about some aspects of that.

所以费米实验室有这个传奇的加速器，还有一个与你相关的个人故事，因为，我的意思是，我想问你一百万个问题，我们会问你其中的某些方面。

So this idea of an accelerator, the design and the physics of an accelerator, how is that productive for understanding and discovering different aspects of particle physics?

那么，加速器的想法、加速器的设计和物理学对于理解和发现粒子物理学的不同方面有何作用？

Well, I’m so glad you asked .

嗯，我很高兴你问了。

45:37 I mean, this is fascinating.

我的意思是，这很有趣。

All right.

好的。

Everybody has heard Einstein’s equation E equals MC squared.

每个人都听说过爱因斯坦的方程 E 等于 MC 平方。

Nobody knows what it means.

没有人知道这意味着什么。

Maybe they heard that energy equals mass and mass equals energy.

也许他们听说能量等于质量，质量等于能量。

I don’t know, you know.

我不知道，你知道。

But they’ve heard the equation, the most famous equation in all of science.

但他们听说过这个方程，整个科学界最著名的方程。

But buried inside that equation is a really thoroughly fascinating concept: that energy and matter are equivalent, and you can, in fact, convert movement energy into mass.

但隐藏在这个方程中的是一个非常令人着迷的概念：能量和物质是等价的，事实上，你可以将运动能量转换成质量。

And so this is something that we’ve known for a long time.

所以这是我们很长时间以来都知道的事情。

This was predicted back in basically 1928, so a long time ago, actually almost a hundred years ago.

基本上早在 1928 年就已经预测到了这一点，所以很久以前，实际上几乎一百年前了。

And it is not in the slightest bit controversial.

而且它没有丝毫争议。

We can do this all the time.

我们可以一直这样做。

46:30 So the simplest thing is to take two particles that have no structure, so, you know, the closest thing you can have to BBs that are just true mathematical BBs.

所以最简单的事情就是采用两个没有结构的粒子，所以，你知道，最接近 BB 的东西就是真正的数学 BB。

If you smash those two things together, it’s coming in with a huge amount of energy from one direction, a huge amount of energy from the other direction.

如果你把这两件事砸在一起，它就会从一个方向带来大量的能量，从另一个方向带来大量的能量。

The directions cancel, so the net momentum, the net energy of this has no motion.

方向相互抵消，因此净动量、净能量没有运动。

So you have these two things coming in with a, you know, exactly balanced energy, and if they collide, they could stop.

因此，这两件事的能量完全平衡，如果它们发生碰撞，它们可能会停止。

Well, that energy has to go somewhere, and that energy can literally create mass, create particles.

嗯，能量必须到达某个地方，并且能量实际上可以创造质量，创造粒子。

Now, there are special rules about what happens.

现在，对于发生的事情有特殊的规则。

If you have two things coming together and it creates a particle, it has to create an antimatter particle to balance it.

如果你有两个东西聚集在一起并产生一个粒子，它必须产生一个反物质粒子来平衡它。

47:20 That’s just kind of the rules of the laws of nature.

这只是自然法则的规则。

Why is that the case?

为什么会这样呢？

Well, we have some ideas, but in many respects, the answer is because those are the laws of the universe, and that’s the things that we try to understand.

好吧，我们有一些想法，但在很多方面，答案是因为这些是宇宙法则，这就是我们试图理解的东西。

47:33 But this is absolutely true.

但这是绝对正确的。

So what particle accelerators do, among other things, is simply transform energy into particles.

因此，粒子加速器的作用之一就是将能量转化为粒子。

And so basically, any particle that doesn’t exist in nature, we can make in this way.

所以基本上，任何自然界中不存在的粒子，我们都可以用这种方式制造。

You can make the antimatter electron by taking two particles, smashing them together.

你可以通过将两个粒子粉碎在一起来制造反物质电子。

The energy sits there, and it will make an electron and an antimatter electron, and it just does.

能量就在那里，它会产生一个电子和一个反物质电子，它就这样产生了。

And we know that.

我们知道这一点。

The antimatter electron was discovered in 1932.

反物质电子于1932年被发现。

This is all pretty easy.

这一切都很容易。

The antimatter proton was discovered in 1955 at the Berkeley Bevatron.

1955 年，伯克利 Bevatron 发现了反物质质子。

And so this is just what you do.

所以这就是你所做的。

You can convert energy into a matter-antimatter particle.

您可以将能量转化为物质-反物质粒子。

Now, the converse goes true, and that’s something we might talk about.

现在，情况正好相反，这就是我们可以讨论的事情。

48:27 You can take matter and antimatter and bring it together, and it’ll make energy.

你可以将物质和反物质结合在一起，它就会产生能量。

The process can go both ways.

这个过程可以是双向的。

Energy can make matter and antimatter.

能量可以产生物质和反物质。

Matter and antimatter can make energy, and this is just true.

物质和反物质可以产生能量，这是事实。

We do it all the time.

我们一直这样做。

There’s no question that this is the case.

毫无疑问，情况确实如此。

And we should also mention that this is the reason why Fermilab had a nice stash of antimatter particles.

我们还应该提到，这就是费米实验室拥有大量反物质粒子的原因。

48:45 So as, as a side effect, you can also collect antimatter in this kind of way.

因此，作为副作用，你也可以通过这种方式收集反物质。

Sure.

当然。

You can produce antimatter, but it’s at an extremely costly-

你可以生产反物质，但成本极高——

Oh, very, very costly.

哦，非常非常昂贵。

49:00 In order at the Fermilab machine, we would have to smash 100,000 protons into something to make one antimatter proton.

为了在费米实验室机器上运行，我们必须将 100,000 个质子粉碎成某种东西才能产生一个反物质质子。

So I mean, it took some work.

所以我的意思是，这需要一些工作。

Is there some extremely precise recipe of being able to produce particular kinds of particles and all this kind of stuff?

是否有一些极其精确的方法能够生产特定种类的粒子和所有此类东西？

49:14 When you smash two things together, is there like how can you control accurately which kind of particles you’re trying to produce?

当你将两个东西粉碎在一起时，你如何才能准确地控制你想要产生哪种粒子？

If you wanna make antimatter electrons, you smash together energy at a certain– It’s just easier with electrons because the electrons, to the best of our knowledge, have nothing inside them, so they’re simple.

如果你想制造反物质电子，你可以将能量粉碎到一定程度——电子更容易，因为据我们所知，电子内部没有任何东西，所以它们很简单。

49:32 They have a certain mass, and that’s that.

它们有一定的质量，仅此而已。

So if you smash particles together with the right energy, you can make them very, very easily because you can– It’s like an old style radio back in the day where you had to dial it in.

因此，如果你用正确的能量将粒子粉碎在一起，你就可以非常非常容易地制造它们，因为你可以——这就像过去的老式收音机，你必须拨通它。

You could get right on the station, and you could hear the signal, and if you were off a little, it didn’t work.

你可以直接到达电台，你就能听到信号，如果你偏离一点点，它就不起作用了。

The problem for things like protons and so forth is they’re not point-like particles.

质子等物体的问题是它们不是点状粒子。

They’re kind of like garbage cans full of stuff, and so it’s very difficult to make antimatter protons.

它们有点像装满东西的垃圾桶，因此制造反物质质子非常困难。

50:14 Now, you can get more of them by increasing the energy at which you collide two particles together.

现在，您可以通过增加两个粒子碰撞在一起的能量来获得更多粒子。

If you’re at below a certain energy, and you say you collide two protons together at kind of low energy, you just don’t have enough energy to make an antiproton.

如果你的能量低于一定的能量，并且你说你以某种低能量将两个质子碰撞在一起，那么你就没有足够的能量来产生反质子。

And so it doesn’t happen.

所以它不会发生。

You get to a certain energy, and you can just barely make them.

当你达到一定的能量时，你就勉强能够制造它们。

The more energy you collide them together, the more you make.

将它们碰撞在一起的能量越多，产生的能量就越多。

So that is just sort of how it works.

这就是它的工作原理。

More is better.

越多越好。

And then with, with CERN, if you compare maybe CERN and Fermilab, going to Perplexity here, CERN’s accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider, LHC, is the world’s highest energy proton collider, while Fermilab’s current and planned accelerators focus on intense proton beams for neutrino physics-

然后，与 CERN 相比，如果你比较 CERN 和费米实验室，请转到这里的困惑，CERN 的加速器，大型强子对撞机，LHC，是世界上能量最高的质子对撞机，而费米实验室当前和计划中的加速器专注于中微子物理的强质子束 -

Correct.

正确。

…

……

51:05 rather than pushing the absolute energy frontier.

而不是推动绝对能源前沿。

Absolute energy frontier meaning highest possible energy smashing of protons together.

绝对能量边界意味着质子碰撞在一起的最高可能能量。

Correct.

正确的。

51:16 So one, we were talking about, like, accumulating antimatter.

因此，我们谈论的是反物质的积累。

Yes.

是的。

All right?

好的？

51:21 And so there, that is typically making antiprotons, as opposed to making all particles in general.

因此，这通常是制造反质子，而不是一般制造所有粒子。

So let’s focus on the antiproton side to begin with.

因此，让我们首先关注反质子方面。

51:32 All right?

好的？

So Fermilab doesn’t make antiprotons anymore.

所以费米实验室不再制造反质子。

We stopped making them in 2011, and it’s because we shut our big accelerator down to concentrate on a different facet of particle physics.

我们于 2011 年停止制造它们，这是因为我们关闭了大型加速器，转而专注于粒子物理学的另一个方面。

However, at the time, we would smash protons with an energy of 120 GeV, and in that, we would make antiprotons.

然而，当时我们会粉碎能量为 120 GeV 的质子，从而产生反质子。

So that’s a ton of energy.

所以这是大量的能量。

It’s true that the CERN accelerator, the big accelerator, is now much higher energy than the Fermilab accelerator was.

确实，欧洲核子研究中心加速器，大型加速器，现在的能量比费米实验室加速器高得多。

No problem.

没问题。

But that’s not how they make antiprotons.

但这不是他们制造反质子的方式。

All of these big beam big laboratories, it’s not one accelerator.

所有这些大光束大实验室，都不是一台加速器。

At Fermilab, there were five distinct accelerators, and it was basically like shifting an old standard car, ’cause you couldn’t just go zero to super speed in one accelerator.

在费米实验室，有五个不同的加速器，这基本上就像改变一辆旧的标准汽车，因为你不能在一个加速器中从零到超高速。

52:27 You had to go from one to another, getting higher and higher.

你必须从一个地方到另一个地方，变得越来越高。

Well, at CERN, they use one of the, basically their second gear in their very big accelerator complex to make antimatter protons, and their accelerator is only 26 GeV compared to the 120 GeV at Fermilab.

嗯，在 CERN，他们使用其中一个，基本上是他们非常大的加速器复合体中的第二档来制造反物质质子，与费米实验室的 120 GeV 相比，他们的加速器只有 26 GeV。

Fermilab’s not operating, but when it was operating, it operated at an energy about four times higher than what CERN is doing now.

费米实验室没有运行，但当它运行时，它的运行能量大约是欧洲核子研究中心现在运行能量的四倍。

And why is that?

这是为什么呢？

Well, it’s because what CERN needs to do is to not make as many antiprotons as Fermilab did.

嗯，这是因为欧洲核子研究中心需要做的就是不要像费米实验室那样制造那么多反质子。

They are doing a very different current experimental program.

他们正在做一个非常不同的当前实验计划。

They’re doing a fascinating experimental program, including trying to figure out does antigravity fall up or down, which is kinda neat.

他们正在做一个有趣的实验项目，包括试图弄清楚反重力是向上还是向下下降，这有点巧妙。

And we sort of know the answer to that.

我们大概知道这个问题的答案。

That’s separate.

那是分开的。

53:17 But anyways, so getting back to the antiproton business- …

但无论如何，让我们回到反质子的话题上来——……

while Fermilab doesn’t do it now, it was top dog.

虽然费米实验室现在不做这件事，但它是顶尖的。

It’s not anymore.

不再是了。

The only really big antiproton accelerator creator is a small accelerator at CERN.

唯一真正大型反质子加速器的创造者是欧洲核子研究中心的一个小型加速器。

Okay, so that’s the antiproton thing, and if we get back to antimatter, we can talk about that- …

好吧，这就是反质子的事情，如果我们回到反物质，我们可以讨论这个——……

’cause that is way cool.

因为那太酷了。

Yeah, super cool.

是的，超级酷。

But now the other side of your thing about making high-energy unknown particles, bigger is better.

但现在制造高能未知粒子的另一面是越大越好。

53:37 And it is true that the LHC is a very high-energy machine.

大型强子对撞机确实是一台能量非常高的机器。

It is about seven times more powerful in terms of energy per collision.

就每次碰撞的能量而言，它的威力大约是其七倍。

It is also about 100 times more collisions per second than the Fermilab machine.

它每秒的碰撞次数也比费米实验室机器多约 100 倍。

So it is true that the LHC can make bigger, heavier particles that the old Fermilab, the Tevatron, ever could.

因此，大型强子对撞机确实可以制造出比旧费米实验室 Tevatron 更大、更重的粒子。

54:11 And that is true.

这是真的。

So if you wanna look at high-energy stuff, yeah, you go to CERN now, which is why many of my colleagues, including myself, once we had measured all of the sort of frontier measurements we thought we could make with the Fermilab accelerator, we saw this bigger, more powerful machine with seven times the energy and 100 times more collisions per second.

所以，如果你想研究高能的东西，是的，你现在就去欧洲核子研究中心，这就是为什么我的许多同事，包括我自己，一旦我们测量了所有我们认为可以用费米实验室加速器进行的前沿测量，我们就看到了这个更大、更强大的机器，它的能量是它的七倍，每秒的碰撞次数是它的 100 倍。

We said, “Heck yeah, let’s go work on that.” And to give you a sense of scale, the top quark, which is the heaviest particle ever discovered, discovered at Fermilab in 1995, there were two discovery papers, and the one on which I was a co-author, we had worked for a good chunk of between six months and a year of collecting collisions, and there were a lot of collisions, and our paper had 38 top quark candidates.

我们说：“好吧，让我们开始吧。”为了给你一个规模感，顶夸克是有史以来发现的最重的粒子，1995年在费米实验室发现的，有两篇发现论文，而我是其中的合著者，我们花了六个月到一年的时间收集碰撞，发生了很多碰撞，我们的论文有 38 个顶夸克候选者。

38.

38.

55:04 And we knew that half of them were crap because when you make a detector like that, there’s what you call background, so you have the background and the good stuff, and we know it was about 50/50.

我们知道其中一半是垃圾，因为当你制作这样的探测器时，就会有所谓的背景，所以你有背景和好的东西，我们知道大约是 50/50。

So we had maybe 19 top quarks after working for between six months and a year of collecting data.

因此，经过六个月到一年的数据收集工作，我们可能得到了 19 个顶夸克。

But now, at the LHC, we make a top quark every second.

但现在，在大型强子对撞机上，我们每秒都会产生一个顶夸克。

And that’s what higher energy and more collisions per second will do for you.

这就是更高的能量和每秒更多的碰撞将为你带来的好处。

That extra energy, you’re above threshold, you make a ton of them, and when you compare the 1995 Fermilab accelerator to the current CERN accelerator, it’s probably 1,000 times the collisions per second.

额外的能量，你超过了阈值，你制造了大量的能量，当你将 1995 年的费米实验室加速器与当前的 CERN 加速器进行比较时，它可能是每秒碰撞的 1,000 倍。

So it went from painstaking, pulling teeth, to, yeah, now top quarks are a background.

所以它从艰苦的拔牙，到了，是的，现在顶夸克成为了背景。

We try to get rid of them.

我们试图摆脱它们。

There’s just too many of them.

他们的数量太多了。

55:53 They get in the way of searching for the stuff we really wanna search.

它们妨碍了我们寻找真正想要搜索的东西。

They are, like, so 30 years ago.

他们就像30年前那样。

By the way, is there something to be said about the kind of signal processing here, how you remove the noise, how you remove the background, how you determine which particle is which?

顺便问一下，关于这里的信号处理类型，如何去除噪声，如何去除背景，如何确定哪个粒子是哪个粒子，有什么要说的吗？

55:59 There’s probably some, like, incredible nuance there, even outside of the scope of this conversation.

可能存在一些令人难以置信的细微差别，甚至超出了本次对话的范围。

So let me just throw some numbers out, all right?

那么让我抛出一些数字，好吗？

56:14 So at the CERN accelerator, when it’s operating, the collisions occur at a prodigious rate.

因此，在欧洲核子研究组织的加速器上，当它运行时，碰撞会以惊人的速度发生。

We get about a billion, with a B, collisions per second.

我们每秒大约发生十亿次碰撞，其中 B 次。

Now, each one of those col- Yeah, yeah, that’s what I said.

现在，每一位同事——是的，是的，这就是我所说的。

Now, it turns out some of them are happening at the same time, so there’s about, of order 40 million moments in time per second where you would take a shot, and inside that moment, there might be 20 collisions.

现在，事实证明其中一些是同时发生的，所以每秒大约有 4000 万个时刻你可以进行射击，而在那个时刻内，可能会发生 20 次碰撞。

So that’s why, where we get to the billion.

这就是我们达到十亿的原因。

Yeah, but can you individually pinpoint the collisions?

是的，但是你能单独找出碰撞吗？

Sort of, to a degree.

在某种程度上，是这样。

56:51 So the beams are, you know…

所以梁是，你知道......

The– When people think of beams, they think of, like, laser beams, but that’s not really what particle beams look like.

当人们想到光束时，他们会想到激光束，但这并不是粒子束的真正样子。

Particle beams look like little tiny sticks of spaghetti, except they’re much thinner.

粒子束看起来就像细小的意大利面条，只不过它们要细得多。

They’re not as fat as a stick of spaghetti, and they’re at the LHC, different accelerators are different, they’re about this long.

它们不像意大利面条那么肥，而且它们在大型强子对撞机上，不同的加速器不同，它们大约有这么长。

And so you have one of them going one way full of protons- …

所以其中一个充满质子的单向运动——……

and another one going the other way full of protons, and they pass through each other.

另一个充满质子的方向相反，它们互相穿过。

And as they- …

正如他们——...

pass through each other, you should think of this as like a swarm of bees.

互相穿过，你应该把它想象成一群蜜蜂。

57:26 And this is like a swarm of bees, and mostly the bees pass through each other and don’t do anything.

这就像一群蜜蜂，大多数蜜蜂互相穿过，什么也不做。

But every so often, some of the bees hit nose on and stripes and wings and everything everywhere.

但时不时地，一些蜜蜂会撞到鼻子、条纹、翅膀和到处都是的东西。

That’s awesome.

太棒了。

57:38 That’s awesome.

太棒了。

And so as they collide through each other, you know, one collision’s here, and one’s here, and one’s here.

因此，当它们相互碰撞时，你知道，这里发生了一次碰撞，这里发生了一次碰撞，这里又发生了一次碰撞。

57:39 And you can’t tell too much side to side because the beams are really small.

而且你无法从一侧到另一侧分辨太多，因为光束非常小。

They’re sort of the thickness of a human hair.

它们的厚度相当于人类头发的厚度。

But you can see along the direction.

但你可以沿着方向看。

And they’re, you know, this is about the right size.

你知道，它们的尺寸正好。

And so we have detectors around them, and we can actually see, oh, particles came from here, and particles came from here.

所以我们在它们周围有探测器，我们实际上可以看到，哦，粒子来自这里，粒子来自这里。

58:04 And that’s amazing.

这太棒了。

All right.

好的。

So at any one crossing, there’s maybe 20 collisions.

因此，在任何一个十字路口，可能会发生 20 起碰撞事故。

Now, most collisions are absolutely boring.

现在，大多数碰撞都是绝对无聊的。

They’re boring because they exemplify physics that we know a great deal about already.

它们很无聊，因为它们体现了我们已经非常了解的物理学。

We’ve tested it for decades.

我们已经对其进行了数十年的测试。

We know all about it.

我们知道这一切。

We don’t care.

我们不在乎。

I mean, it’s kind of blasé that we can say, “Oh, yeah, yeah, we’re making a billion subatomic particles every second,” but who cares because, you know?

我的意思是，我们可以说“哦，是的，是的，我们每秒制造十亿个亚原子粒子”，这有点无聊，但谁在乎呢，因为，你知道吗？

But that’s just the way of frontier scientists.

但这只是前沿科学家的方式。

So what you need is you need to pick out the cool ones, the weird ones, the ones that nobody’s seen before.

所以你需要的是挑选出那些很酷的、那些奇怪的、那些以前没有人见过的。

And so what happens is these things, these beams collide, and we surround the collision point with an enormous detector.

所以发生的事情就是这些东西，这些光束碰撞，我们用一个巨大的探测器包围碰撞点。

58:55 There are two absolutely ginormous detectors at the LHC, one of them called CMS, which is the one I’m on, and the other one is called ATLAS- …

LHC 上有两个绝对巨大的探测器，其中一个叫做 CMS，这就是我正在使用的探测器，另一个叫做 ATLAS-……

which is the other one and we don’t speak of bec— No, they’re both really amazing.

这是另一个，我们不谈论因为——不，他们都非常了不起。

Okay.

好的。

59:08 It’s good to know that there’s friendly competition even inside CERN.

很高兴知道即使在欧洲核子研究中心内部也存在友好的竞争。

Yes, yes.

是的，是的。

That’s awesome.

太棒了。

I mean, the fact is they are both amazing, absolutely amazing detectors.

我的意思是，事实是它们都是令人惊叹的、绝对令人惊叹的探测器。

Right.

正确的。

59:17 But CMS is just a little cooler than ATLAS.

但 CMS 只是比 ATLAS 酷一点。

Oh, yeah, yeah.

哦，是啊，是啊。

59:19 I mean, you know, in particle physics, we really absolutely want our competitors to do extremely well, just not quite as well as we do.

我的意思是，你知道，在粒子物理学中，我们真的绝对希望我们的竞争对手做得非常好，只是不如我们。

Got it.

知道了。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

All right.

好的。

So-

所以——

So these two giant detectors.

这两个巨大的探测器。

Right.

正确的。

59:32 So, but one of them, our detector, the CMS detector, it’s the small one.

所以，其中之一，我们的探测器，CMS 探测器，它是小型的。

It is 70 feet long, 50 feet high, 50 feet wide.

它长70英尺，高50英尺，宽50英尺。

It’s five stories tall.

它有五层楼高。

It weighs 14,000 tons.

它重14,000吨。

Small one, yep.

小的，是的。

Small.

小的。

59:45 ATLAS experiment is 150 feet long, 80 feet across.

ATLAS 实验长 150 英尺，宽 80 英尺。

It weighs only 7,000 tons.

它的重量只有7000吨。

Just piece of cake.

只是小菜一碟。

You could take the ATLAS detector, and you could put four of them on a soccer or a football field, and it would fill the field up with just enough room on the sidelines for the cheerleaders and the water boy and the coaches and stuff.

你可以使用 ATLAS 探测器，然后将四个探测器放在足球场或足球场上，它会填满场地，并在边线留下足够的空间供啦啦队、水童和教练等人员使用。

That’s how big they are.

这就是它们的大小。

Nice.

好的。

So these are absolutely ginormous detectors, and basically they’re cameras, and what they can do is they can take pictures 40 million times per second.

所以这些绝对是巨大的探测器，基本上它们都是相机，它们能做的就是每秒拍摄 4000 万次照片。

1:00:04 Now, all the data comes streaming off that detector, and we can’t record it all.

现在，所有数据都从探测器流出，我们无法全部记录下来。

It would just fill up all of our tapes, and it would be full of all these boring things we don’t care about.

它只会填满我们所有的磁带，而且会充满我们不关心的所有这些无聊的事情。

So what we do is as the beams pass through one another, we teach our detectors to say, “We only want one where there are certain configurations that might be interesting,” like there’s gobs of energy in the detector, or there’s a gob of energy on one side and nothing on the other side, or there’s four gobs of energy or whatever.

所以我们所做的就是当光束相互穿过时，我们教我们的探测器说，“我们只想要一个可能有趣的某些配置”，比如探测器中有能量团，或者一侧有能量团而另一侧没有能量团，或者有四个能量团或其他什么。

These are called triggers.

这些称为触发器。

1:00:45 And so these– what we have is fast electronics that take the 40 million possible pictures per second, and it says, “You know, about 100,000 of those are really cool.

因此，我们拥有的是快速电子设备，每秒可以拍摄 4000 万张照片，它说：“你知道，其中大约 100,000 张真的很酷。

We should think about them.” And then it passes not all of the 40 million, but those 100,000 to the next level, which are commercial processors that have basically our final analysis code, but optimized to run very, very quickly.

我们应该考虑一下他们。”然后它不是将全部 4000 万个，而是将这 100,000 个传递到下一个级别，这些处理器基本上具有我们的最终分析代码，但经过优化以运行得非常非常快。

And what they do is they do a really quick and dirty analysis to further refine what’s good and what’s not.

他们所做的是进行非常快速和肮脏的分析，以进一步完善什么是好的，什么是不好的。

And that computer farm then accepts about 1,000 collisions per second, and we record those for further analysis.

然后，该计算机场每秒接受大约 1,000 次碰撞，我们记录这些碰撞以供进一步分析。

So that’s what’s really happening.

这就是真正发生的事情。

Of the 50 million possible collisions per second, the fast electronics and then the computers pick the thousand.

在每秒 5000 万次可能的碰撞中，快速电子设备和计算机会挑选出一千次。

1:01:42 And then we pass those through analysis software and hand them to the graduate students, and they pick through them, looking and finding the handful that are the next Nobel Prize.

然后我们通过分析软件将它们传递给研究生，他们会仔细挑选，寻找并找到下一个诺贝尔奖的少数。

So that’s how that works, and that is truly astonishing.

这就是它的工作原理，这确实令人惊讶。

I’m– hats off to the accelerator builders, the detector builders, the people who make the software work, the people who make the not gigabytes, not terabytes, but petabytes of data flow around the world seamlessly.

我向加速器构建者、探测器构建者、使软件运行的人们、使数PB、不是千兆字节、而是数拍字节的数据在世界各地无缝流动的人们致敬。

It’s really amazing.

真是太神奇了。

I’m very grateful.

我非常感激。

So take me to July 4th, 2012, the discovery of Higgs boson.

让我回顾一下 2012 年 7 月 4 日，希格斯玻色子的发现。

So this is really fun because the people searching for the Higgs, it’s a, it’s a community, and the entire community knew that the LHC was coming online.

所以这真的很有趣，因为寻找希格斯粒子的人们，这是一个社区，整个社区都知道大型强子对撞机即将上线。

1:02:19 So even though many of us had been working on the Fermilab accelerators, a lot of us were transitioning to the CERN accelerator.

因此，尽管我们中的许多人一直在研究费米实验室加速器，但我们中的许多人正在转向欧洲核子研究组织加速器。

So we were in the very funny business of wearing our Fermilab detector people hats, trying desperately to find the Higgs boson at Fermilab- …

所以我们戴着费米实验室探测器人的帽子，拼命地试图在费米实验室找到希格斯玻色子，这是一件非常有趣的事情——……

while simultaneously wearing our CERN hats, knowing that CERN was going to be able to find it if it existed.

同时戴着我们的欧洲核子研究中心的帽子，知道欧洲核子研究中心将能够找到它，如果它存在的话。

And so, you know, we were a little neurotic, kind of wanted, you know, our old stuff to work and there was an awful lot of people on both experiments.

所以，你知道，我们有点神经质，有点想要，你知道，我们的旧东西能发挥作用，而且这两个实验都有很多人。

Did you have a sense that one of the two places would be able to find the Higgs?

你是否有预感这两个地方之一能够找到希格斯粒子？

1:03:08 First, did you think the Higgs boson existed, and second, did you think that these accelerators have the chance to find them?

首先，你认为希格斯玻色子存在吗？其次，你认为这些加速器有机会找到它们吗？

So I was cognizant of the fact that the Higgs boson might not exist, but there was a lot of evidence pointing in the direction that it might be.

所以我意识到希格斯玻色子可能不存在，但有很多证据表明它可能存在。

1:03:22 I knew that both experiments, the Fermilab accelerator and the CERN accelerator, would either find or rule out the Higgs if it existed.

我知道费米实验室加速器和欧洲核子研究组织加速器这两个实验要么会发现希格斯玻色子，要么会排除希格斯玻色子（如果它存在的话）。

Rule out?

排除？

Well, that’s a possibility.

嗯，这是有可能的。

1:03:43 I mean- …

我的意思是——……

maybe the Higgs theory was wrong.

也许希格斯理论是错误的。

Right?

正确的？

Until you, till you know it’s there, it might be wrong.

直到你知道它的存在之前，它可能是错误的。

It’s like dark matter.

就像暗物质一样。

People talk about dark matter, it might not be real.

人们谈论暗物质，它可能不是真的。

I mean, I– it probably is, but it might not be.

我的意思是，我——可能是，但也可能不是。

So you knew at these energy levels, you would be– you should be able to find-

所以你知道在这些能量水平上，你会——你应该能够找到——

Yes

是的

…

……

1:03:58 the Higgs boson.

希格斯玻色子。

Yes.

是的。

1:03:59 So that’s the nice thing about this kind of physics, because there was a theory, that theory made predictions.

这就是这种物理学的好处，因为有一个理论，这个理论做出了预测。

Now, there were parameters in the theory we didn’t know.

现在，理论中有些参数是我们不知道的。

If the mass was this, we’d get this thing.

如果质量是这样，我们就会得到这个东西。

If the mass was this, we’d get this thing.

如果质量是这样，我们就会得到这个东西。

But we could do the, the calculation for every conceivable Higgs mass, and so then we could search.

但我们可以对每个可以想象的希格斯质量进行计算，然后我们就可以进行搜索。

Look, well, let’s say the Higgs mass is 100 in some units.

好吧，假设希格斯粒子的质量在某些单位下是 100。

Did we see it there?

我们在那里看到了吗？

No.

不。

Then it’s not 100.

那么就不是100了。

Well, let’s look at 103.

好吧，让我们看看103。

Is it there?

在那里吗？

No.

不。

So we could do that.

所以我们可以这么做。

Both accelerators could either find it or definitively rule out the predictions of simple Higgs theory, 100% guaranteed.

两个加速器要么能找到它，要么最终排除简单希格斯理论的预测，100% 有保证。

1:04:45 However, the CERN accelerator had 10 times the collisions per second and three and a half times the energy.

然而，CERN 加速器每秒的碰撞次数是原来的 10 倍，能量是原来的 3 倍半。

So remember when I said it– with the top quarks, it was, like, six months for 19 versus one a second?

所以还记得我说过的吗——对于顶夸克来说，六个月是 19 个夸克，而每秒 1 个夸克？

There’s no question.

毫无疑问。

The writing is on the wall.

文字就在墙上。

The LHC was gonna have an easier time of it- …

大型强子对撞机的日子会更轻松一些——……

if it was real.

如果是真的的话。

However, but, you know, I’m a Fermilab scientist, and we wanted Fermilab, you know, come on, we want Fermilab- …

然而，但是，你知道，我是费米实验室的科学家，我们想要费米实验室，你知道，来吧，我们想要费米实验室——……

to win.

赢得胜利。

Of course.

当然。

Not, you know.

不，你知道。

1:05:15 So we were busting our butt, and we had done what I said.

所以我们竭尽全力，并且按照我说的做了。

We had ruled out this region.

我们已经排除了这个地区。

We had certain mass ranges.

我们有一定的质量范围。

We knew it wasn’t there.

我们知道它不在那里。

And we finally said, if there was a Higgs boson, if it existed, which we didn’t know at the time, its mass was somewhere between, if I recall, between, like, 120 and 145.

最后我们说，如果存在希格斯玻色子，如果它存在，我们当时还不知道，它的质量在（我记得的话）120 到 145 之间。

All right?

好吧？

We’d ruled out all the other stuff.

我们排除了所有其他的东西。

And so wearing our CERN hat, we said, “Okay, we’re gonna find that.” But we were really, really, really trying to do it.

因此，戴着欧洲核子研究中心的帽子，我们说：“好吧，我们会找到它的。”但我们真的、真的、真的很努力去做这件事。

Now, if we had had another two years or maybe three years of running the Fermi accelerator, Fermilab would have discovered or ruled out, or in this case, it turned out, discovered the Higgs boson, ’cause it’s a real thing.

现在，如果我们再运行两年或三年的费米加速器，费米实验室就会发现或排除，或者在这种情况下，事实证明，发现了希格斯玻色子，因为它是真实存在的。

We would have found it without a question.

我们会毫无疑问地找到它。

1:06:06 But we didn’t have enough data in July of 2012.

但 2012 年 7 月我们没有足够的数据。

We needed a couple more years.

我们还需要几年时间。

Unfortunately, in 2008, or fortunately, the LHC had turned on.

不幸的是，2008年，或者说幸运的是，大型强子对撞机已经启动。

It broke.

它坏了。

They had to fix it.

他们必须修复它。

Turned on again in 2010.

2010年再次开启。

It ran poorly in 2011.

2011年，该公司的业绩表现不佳。

In 2012, they pushed up their sleeves and said, “Let’s do this,” and it turned on.

2012 年，他们卷起袖子说：“让我们这么做吧”，事情就开始了。

And so, you know, there was this– Fermilab knew if it didn’t have it now, it was too late.

所以，你知道，有这个——费米实验室知道如果现在没有它，那就太晚了。

Anyways, 2012 rolls around, and like two days before the announcement at CERN was July 4th, so two days before that, Fermilab made a measurement and said, “We can rule out certain regions, but certain regions we can’t rule out.

无论如何，2012 年即将到来，就像欧洲核子研究组织宣布这一消息的前两天是 7 月 4 日一样，所以在此之前的两天，费米实验室进行了测量并表示：“我们可以排除某些区域，但我们不能排除某些区域。

But what we know, and this is important, if the Higgs boson exists, it must be in this region for which we are not capable yet of ruling out.”

但我们知道，这一点很重要，如果希格斯玻色子存在，它一定就在这个区域，我们还无法排除这一点。”

1:07:08 So that’s where we were two days before the LHC said, “We got it.” That was July 4th, 2012.

这就是大型强子对撞机说“我们明白了”之前两天我们所处的位置。那是2012年7月4日。

So detecting the, the Higgs boson confirmed the existence of the Higgs field, the mechanism through which fundamental particles like electrons and quarks acquire mass in the standard model.

因此，检测到希格斯玻色子证实了希格斯场的存在，希格斯场是电子和夸克等基本粒子在标准模型中获得质量的机制。

Correct.

正确的。

1:07:31 Although, let’s be very specific of what we did then.

不过，让我们具体说明一下我们当时做了什么。

We found a particle consistent with the existence of the Higgs boson.

我们发现了一种与希格斯玻色子的存在相一致的粒子。

There were alternative theories at the time that predicted not one, but multiple Higgs bosons.

当时有其他理论预测的不是一种希格斯玻色子，而是多种希格斯玻色子。

So there’s a theory called supersymmetry, which said that there was not one, but five Higgs bosons.

所以有一种叫做超对称的理论，它说希格斯玻色子不是一个，而是五个。

The standard original 1964 Higgs theory says there were one.

1964 年最初的标准希格斯理论认为确实存在一个。

And so all we really knew at the time was we found a theory.

所以当时我们真正知道的是我们找到了一个理论。

We did not necessarily confirm that Higgs was right.

我们不一定确认希格斯是正确的。

We found data that said that it looked like Higgs was right, but until we ran for longer, we were unable to rule out other alternative theories.

我们发现的数据表明希格斯玻色子看起来是正确的，但在我们运行更长时间之前，我们无法排除其他替代理论。

So that’s the deal.

事情就是这样。

1:08:20 Now, in the fullness of time, it is after all what, 14 years now later, we have been able to basically rule out some of those other things, and by now we have validated things.

现在，时间成熟了，毕竟，14 年过去了，我们已经能够基本上排除其他一些事情，而且现在我们已经验证了一些事情。

We found the mass of the particle.

我们找到了粒子的质量。

We know the spin of the Higgs boson.

我们知道希格斯玻色子的自旋。

It has a spin of zero.

它的自旋为零。

We have discovered the Higgs boson decays.

我们发现希格斯玻色子衰变。

It preferentially decays into the heaviest particles it can through energy conservation.

通过能量守恒，它会优先衰变成最重的粒子。

Can’t decay into top quarks, it’s too light to decay into top quarks, but it can decay into bottom quarks.

不能衰变成顶夸克，它太轻而不能衰变成顶夸克，但它可以衰变成底夸克。

It can decay into W and Z particles, can decay in a weird way into photons.

它可以衰变成 W 和 Z 粒子，可以以一种奇怪的方式衰变成光子。

And we have looked for all of the hypothesized decays of the original Higgs theory-

我们已经寻找了原始希格斯理论的所有假设衰变 -

1:09:07 …

……

and we have validated that it decays in those ways at the rates that theory predicted.

我们已经证实它会以理论预测的速度以这些方式衰减。

And so now in the fullness of time, I’m pretty comfortable saying Peter Higgs and Robert Brout and François Englert and, and his colleagues, they were right back in the ’60s.

因此，现在时机成熟时，我可以很轻松地说彼得·希格斯、罗伯特·布劳特、弗朗索瓦·恩格勒特以及他的同事们，他们就回到了 60 年代。

But we weren’t sure on July 4th.

但 7 月 4 日我们还不确定。

All we knew was we found a particle consistent.

我们所知道的是我们发现了一个一致的粒子。

But the thing is, with these discoveries, they’re often just barely discoveries.

但问题是，这些发现往往只是勉强的发现。

It takes a while to go and do the more complex, detailed measurements and, and that’s what we’ve done.

需要一段时间才能进行更复杂、更详细的测量，而这就是我们所做的。

So at the time, I remember it being referred to as the God particle.

所以当时，我记得它被称为上帝粒子。

1:09:41 You also had a minor in theology, so throwing that all together, so calling it the God particle is speaking to the importance, the potential importance of discovering this particle.

你还辅修了神学，所以把所有这些放在一起，所以称它为上帝粒子，说明了发现这个粒子的重要性和潜在的重要性。

Do you think that is in some degree justified?

您认为这在某种程度上合理吗？

Like, if we look at the big impact of it on the, on the history of physics, how important was it to find and show that the, the, the Higgs field is real?

就像，如果我们看看它对物理学史的巨大影响，发现并证明希格斯场是真实的有多重要？

Well, I don’t think it is as important as, for instance, some of Einstein’s stuff.

嗯，我认为它不像爱因斯坦的一些东西那么重要。

1:10:14 I mean, it was– it’s an important prediction.

我的意思是，这是一个重要的预测。

Like, the prediction of quarks was very important and interesting in validating this.

就像，夸克的预测对于验证这一点非常重要且有趣。

The Higgs was kinda like validating that quarks existed.

希格斯玻色子有点像验证夸克的存在。

It, it’s an important stepping stone, and I, I do not wish to, to denigrate it in any way, but there’s ones that changed the way we thought about the world, like Einstein did.

它是一个重要的垫脚石，我不想以任何方式诋毁它，但有些东西改变了我们思考世界的方式，就像爱因斯坦所做的那样。

It wasn’t that sort of thing.

不是那样的事情。

And there is a funny story.

还有一个有趣的故事。

So the reason they call it the God particle is this book by Leon Lederman, and if you read his book, he says, “Well, you know, we call it the God particle, but we should call it the goddamn particle because it’s been causing us so much trouble trying to find it.”

所以他们称之为上帝粒子的原因是莱昂·莱德曼的这本书，如果你读过他的书，他说，“好吧，你知道，我们称之为上帝粒子，但我们应该称它为该死的粒子，因为它给我们带来了很多麻烦，试图找到它。”

1:11:03 And Leon ran Fermilab, so– and he wrote a foreword for one of my books and, you know, I talked to him.

莱昂负责费米实验室，所以——他为我的一本书写了前言，你知道，我和他谈过。

He was a really funny guy.

他是一个非常有趣的人。

And the real truth was the book was called “The God Particle” because his publisher thought it would sell more copies.

真正的事实是，这本书被称为“上帝粒子”，因为他的出版商认为这会卖出更多的副本。

But, you know, then that got into the mindset of the reporters and so forth, and we called it the God particle.

但是，你知道，然后这进入了记者等人的思维，我们称之为上帝粒子。

Leon never really thought of it as anything to do with the religious or even– I mean, he was an incredible jokester, the goddamn particle.

莱昂从来没有真正认为这与宗教有任何关系，甚至——我的意思是，他是一个令人难以置信的爱开玩笑的人，该死的粒子。

It is a really important part of our model of the universe.

它是我们宇宙模型中非常重要的一部分。

It is.

这是。

That there’s this field that gives mass to some particles and not others, that’s-

这个场给一些粒子而不是其他粒子提供质量，那就是——

Right.

对。

1:11:38 It’s a huge thing, but it was part of the standard model.

这是一件大事，但它是标准模型的一部分。

The standard model had known forces, it had known particles, it had all that.

标准模型具有已知的力，具有已知的粒子，它拥有所有这些。

The Higgs boson, the one thing that is true is it was the last unvalidated piece of the standard model.

希格斯玻色子，唯一真实的是它是标准模型中最后一个未经验证的部分。

The standard model does not answer all questions, which is why we have unanswered questions in physics, but it was a punctuation point, end of about 50 years of discovery and searching, where we finally were able to say the standard model, while incomplete, it’s mostly right as far as it goes.

标准模型并不能回答所有问题，这就是为什么我们在物理学中存在悬而未决的问题，但它是一个标点符号，是大约 50 年的发现和搜索的结束，我们终于能够说出标准模型，虽然不完整，但就目前而言它基本上是正确的。

Quick 10-second thank you to our sponsors.

用 10 秒的时间快速感谢我们的赞助商。

1:12:16 Check them out in the description.

在描述中查看它们。

It really is the best way to support this podcast.

这确实是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors.

请访问 lexfridman.com/sponsors。

And now, dear friends, back to my conversation with Don Lincoln.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，回到我与唐·林肯的谈话。

We did a whirlwind tour of the history of physics and took a little tangent on this incredible discovery of the Higgs boson.

我们对物理学史进行了一次旋风式的游览，并对希格斯玻色子这一令人难以置信的发现进行了一些切线。

But we didn’t go all the way yet.

但我们还没有完全走完。

There’s this dream of the grand unified theory, the GUT, that is a step towards the TOE, theory of everything.

大统一理论 GUT 的梦想是迈向万有理论 TOE 的一步。

So can we talk about the GUT first?

那么我们可以先谈谈 GUT 吗？

So what’s entailed in the GUT?

那么 GUT 包含什么内容呢？

So the GUT is short for grand unified theory.

所以GUT是大统一理论的缩写。

1:12:58 We talked about that there were four known subatomic forces, the electromagnetic force, gravity, the strong force, and the weak force.

我们谈到了已知的亚原子力有四种：电磁力、引力、强力和弱力。

And electroweak symmetry unification merged the weak force and electromagnetism into the electroweak force.

电弱对称统一将弱力和电磁力合并为电弱力。

So what GUT hopes to do is to merge the electroweak force and the strong force into one grand unified force.

所以GUT希望做的就是将弱电力和强力合并成一个大统一的力。

Now, that leaves gravity outside because gravity is seemingly fundamentally significantly different.

现在，这把重力排除在外，因为重力似乎有根本上的显着不同。

1:13:32 Then subsequently, it is hoped that at a higher energy, we will be able to blend the theory of everything together with all of the known subatomic forces, the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces, and then gravity.

随后，我们希望在更高的能量下，我们能够将万有理论与所有已知的亚原子力、强力、弱力和电磁力以及引力融合在一起。

But so, as you say, GUT is sort of a way station along the way.

但正如您所说，GUT 是一路上的一个中转站。

That’s the goal, and at this point, I would have to say that I do not see a fast progress in the immediate future.

这就是目标，在这一点上，我不得不说，我在不久的将来看不到快速的进展。

I think we’re a ways away from that at this point.

我认为目前我们距离这一点还有很长的路要走。

You mean on the gravity front?

你是说在重力前沿吗？

Maybe we’ll come up with something really cool.

也许我们会想出一些非常酷的东西。

1:14:04 We certainly had some ideas back in the early ’80s that we tested, and they didn’t pan out.

当然，我们在 80 年代初就有过一些想法并进行了测试，但没有成功。

Speaking of which, string theory is the thing you’re referring to.

说到这里，弦理论就是你所指的东西。

1:14:12 So string theory posits that particles are tiny vibrating strings, and by tiny we mean extremely tiny at the scale of a Planck length.

因此，弦理论假设粒子是微小的振动弦，而“微小”是指在普朗克长度的尺度上极其微小。

Then there’s other leading candidates like loop quantum gravity.

还有其他主要候选者，例如圈量子引力。

Maybe there’s some alternate theories in the works.

也许正在研究一些替代理论。

So can you link on that a little bit more?

那么你能多链接一下吗？

Do you think a theory of everything exists?

你认为万有理论存在吗？

So I hold personally that there are rules that govern matter and energy, space, time, and they probably are rules that I don’t know.

所以我个人认为，物质、能量、空间、时间是有规律的，而这些规律可能是我不知道的。

1:14:42 There are probably phenomena I’m not aware of.

可能存在我不知道的现象。

But I do believe that something, there are, is a rule that governs reality.

但我确实相信，有一些东西是支配现实的规则。

And so in that sense, once we understand the rules that govern reality, the fundamental rules, that would be a theory of everything.

因此，从这个意义上说，一旦我们理解了支配现实的规则、基本规则，那将是一个万有理论。

You know, there are things that are unknowable, like for instance, inside black holes, we don’t know what’s inside there, but that doesn’t mean that there’s not something inside there.

你知道，有些东西是不可知的，比如黑洞里面，我们不知道里面有什么，但这并不意味着里面没有东西。

So there’s a distinction between what we can know and truth.

因此，我们所能知道的和真相之间是有区别的。

1:15:20 So I do believe that there are the rules, and I do believe that with sufficient time, technology, effort, we will be able to figure this all out.

所以我确实相信有规则，而且我确实相信只要有足够的时间、技术、努力，我们就能解决这一切。

Now, this isn’t a thing in my lifetime.

现在，这不是我一生中的事情。

It’s not a thing in my grandchildren’s lifetime or even their grandchildren’s lifetime.

这在我的孙辈的一生中，甚至在他们的孙辈的一生中，都不是一件事情。

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

哇，哇，哇。

1:15:38 That’s a pretty strong statement, right?

这是一个非常有力的声明，对吧？

That’s a pretty strong statement saying we’re fifty to a hundred years out from finding a theory of everything.

这是一个非常有力的声明，表明我们还需要五十到一百年才能找到万有理论。

It took two hundred years to go from unifying gravity to unifying electromagnetism.

从统一重力到统一电磁学花了两百年的时间。

1:15:48 It took a hundred years to go from unifying electromagnetism to unifying the electroweak force.

从统一电磁学到统一电弱力花了一百年的时间。

Now, you could say, well, gee, that went from two hundred to a hundred, so it’s getting faster.

现在，你可以说，好吧，天哪，从两百增加到一百，所以速度越来越快了。

But it’s also getting harder because the unification scale is of order ten to the fifteen, which—we can do the math.

但这也变得越来越困难，因为统一尺度是十到十五的数量级，我们可以计算一下。

That’s a quadrillion times higher than the highest energy accelerator we can build today.

这比我们今天可以建造的最高能量加速器高出四万亿倍。

1:16:19 And it was one thing to, you know, we are reaching diminishing returns.

你知道，我们的回报正在递减是一回事。

We get something like a factor of seven increase in particle accelerator energy every twenty years.

每二十年，粒子加速器的能量就会增加七倍。

And so we have to get to a quadrillion times.

所以我们必须达到千万亿次。

Now, if you really did believe a factor of seven every twenty years, then that’s– we’re talking like five hundred years.

现在，如果你真的相信每二十年就会有七倍，那么那就是——我们说的是五百年。

But you know, this is like Moore’s law, that it doesn’t continue forever.

但你知道，这就像摩尔定律，它不会永远持续下去。

We’re not going to every twenty years get another factor of seven.

我们不会每二十年就会得到另一个七的因数。

So yes, I think it’s a very long time.

所以是的，我认为这是一个很长的时间。

That’s my prediction.

这是我的预测。

You know, some people are far more optimistic, and we can talk about that.

你知道，有些人要乐观得多，我们可以谈谈这一点。

We should also, I should mention that I guess your intuition behind that is not just the part where you come up with a theory that’s beautiful and seems to be internally consistent, but you have to have a theory that’s making falsifiable, testable predictions.

我们还应该，我应该提到，我猜你背后的直觉不仅仅是你提出一个漂亮的、似乎内部一致的理论的部分，而且你必须有一个能够做出可证伪的、可测试的预测的理论。

Correct.

正确的。

And you have to have a feasible engineering construction, a methodology for creating an experiment that tests that prediction.

你必须有一个可行的工程结构，一种创建测试该预测的实验的方法。

1:17:20 So I think a lot of your, this is fifty, a hundred, two hundred years from now, intuition is maybe about the second part of that, which is like, you need to have an experiment.

所以我认为你们很多人，从现在起五十、一百、两百年后，直觉可能是关于第二部分，就像，你需要进行一个实验。

Yes.

是的。

1:17:41 Yes.

是的。

But you know, let’s say, I mean, you alluded to superstrings.

但你知道，我的意思是，你提到了超弦。

I haven’t answered that question.

我还没有回答这个问题。

I’ll table that for a moment.

我暂时搁置一下。

Superstrings is a fascinating idea.

超弦是一个令人着迷的想法。

I don’t believe it, but I love it.

我不相信，但我喜欢它。

I hope it’s true.

我希望这是真的。

And there’s a real, you know, aphorism, and it says you should absolutely never believe what you think.

你知道，有一句真实的格言，它说你绝对不应该相信你的想法。

So even if you think superstrings is true, you shouldn’t believe it because it hasn’t been tested.

所以即使你认为超弦是真的，你也不应该相信它，因为它还没有经过测试。

1:18:06 Now, let’s say superstring is correct.

现在，假设超弦是正确的。

I mean, hypothesis, it’s correct, hundred percent correct.

我的意思是，假设，它是正确的，百分百正确。

I don’t know it’s correct, so I don’t care.

我不知道这是正确的，所以我不在乎。

I mean, you know, it could be correct, but until it’s validated, it’s just a wild-ass guess, you know?

我的意思是，你知道，它可能是正确的，但在得到验证之前，这只是一个疯狂的猜测，你知道吗？

So I, we have to have a way of validating it.

所以我，我们必须有一种方法来验证它。

So yes, the empirical side of it is important.

所以，是的，它的经验方面很重要。

I mean, you could wake up tomorrow and have the theory that is the perfect theory, but if I can’t prove it, I don’t care.

我的意思是，你明天醒来就能得到完美的理论，但如果我不能证明它，我不在乎。

If we were to think, this is going back to the Great Courses on The Evidence for Modern Physics- …

如果我们思考的话，这可以追溯到现代物理学证据的伟大课程——……

1:18:39 we’re talking about energy levels and tiny particles to the degree where the kind of prediction we would be making is not accelerator-type predictions.

我们谈论的是能级和微小粒子，以至于我们所做的预测不是加速器类型的预测。

So it’s probably going to be impossible to build an accelerator that detects something like a string.

因此，构建一个能够检测诸如字符串之类的物体的加速器可能是不可能的。

So you have to make predictions about macro scale behaviors.

所以你必须对宏观尺度的行为做出预测。

That’s another alternative.

这是另一种选择。

It’s a different kind of prediction.

这是一种不同的预测。

Sure.

当然。

Do we even have intuitions about what kind of predictions they would be?

我们是否对它们会是什么样的预测有直觉？

1:19:18 So one, one of course, one of the lines of intuitions has to do with black holes or in the singularity.

所以，当然，直觉之一与黑洞或奇点有关。

The physics of black holes combine certain elements of general relativity and quantum mechanics.

黑洞物理学结合了广义相对论和量子力学的某些元素。

So there- …

所以就有了——……

you could see some kind of predictions you could make, but you can’t really mess with a black hole.

你可以看到你可以做出的某种预测，但你不能真正扰乱黑洞。

It’s not like you can create a black hole in the lab.

你不可能在实验室里创造一个黑洞。

And the energies that we’re talking about, the sizes we’re talking about are inside a black hole, which you can intrinsically never see.

我们谈论的能量、我们谈论的尺寸都在黑洞内部，你本质上永远看不到。

1:19:51 So, you know, you can only see the outside of a black hole, not the inside of a black hole.

所以，你知道，你只能看到黑洞的外部，而看不到黑洞的内部。

So what you said, you did say something that was incredibly important and incredibly correct and probably won’t happen, but that’s still good, okay?

所以你所说的，你确实说了一些非常重要和非常正确的事情，而且可能不会发生，但这仍然很好，好吗？

So we have two choices.

所以我们有两个选择。

When you talk about superstrings, either superstrings are correct and they’re making predictions up at the Planck energy scale, at which point we have to somehow build facilities that can generate Planck energies.

当你谈论超弦时，要么超弦是正确的，并且它们在普朗克能量尺度上做出预测，此时我们必须以某种方式建造可以产生普朗克能量的设施。

That’s possibility one.

这是可能性之一。

Possibility two is this theory, which is currently only applicable at Planck energy scales, someone figures out a way to take those equations and solve them in a way that, say, predicts the mass of the electron.

可能性二是这个理论，目前仅适用于普朗克能量尺度，有人找到了一种方法来采用这些方程并以预测电子质量的方式求解它们。

Right?

正确的？

And that is a tricky business.

这是一件棘手的事情。

1:20:41 I am not a string theorist, so I can’t tell you that that’s likely, but I can tell you that they’ve been working on it since the ’80s and they haven’t gotten very far.

我不是弦理论家，所以我不能告诉你这有可能，但我可以告诉你，他们自 80 年代以来就一直在研究这个问题，但还没有取得多大进展。

Furthermore, I think it’s fair to characterize that string theory is still a vague idea, and that’s unfair, but let me tell you why I say that: because what they have are approximate solutions to approximate equations and that is already saying that we’re a ways away from really getting a handle on that.

此外，我认为可以公平地描述弦理论仍然是一个模糊的想法，这是不公平的，但让我告诉你为什么我这么说：因为他们拥有的是近似方程的近似解，这已经表明我们距离真正掌握它还有很长的路要走。

So yes, there could be some bright young lad or lass out there, someone listening to this podcast right now who figures out a way to take superstring theory and solve them in tractable ways that makes predictions from the scale at which they currently apply down to measurable scale today.

所以，是的，可能有一些聪明的年轻小伙子或姑娘正在听这个播客，他们想出了一种方法，采用超弦理论并以易于处理的方式解决它们，从而使预测从目前应用的规模下降到今天可测量的规模。

1:21:34 And if that happens, well, then I might retract my question or my concept.

如果发生这种情况，那么我可能会收回我的问题或我的概念。

There’s a reason why I think that probably isn’t true.

我认为这可能不是真的，这是有原因的。

That’s probably not valid.

这可能是无效的。

So let me– I, I love this, all right?

所以让我——我，我喜欢这个，好吗？

So let’s back up.

所以让我们备份一下。

I’m going to pitch.

我要去推销。

I wrote this book for Oxford, Einstein’s Unfinished Dream, and Einstein’s unfinished dream was to come up with a theory of everything.

我为牛津大学写了这本书，《爱因斯坦未完成的梦想》，爱因斯坦未完成的梦想是提出一个万有理论。

It was unfinished because, well, it’s unfinished.

它尚未完成，因为它尚未完成。

And so the second part, the tagline of that book is Practical Progress Towards a Theory of Everything, with the emphasis on practical because when you read books about theories of everything, when you see podcasts, when you listen to YouTube videos or whatever, they are often written by theorists.

所以第二部分，这本书的口号是“迈向万有理论的实践进展”，强调实用，因为当你阅读万有理论的书籍时，当你看播客时，当你听 YouTube 视频或其他什么时，它们通常是理论家写的。

And theorists are– they’re big idea people.

理论家是——他们是有伟大想法的人。

1:22:23 They’re very, very smart, but there’s a pragmatism that is often missing in the sense that they say, “Well, superstrings, look, you know, have these little vibrating things, and wouldn’t it be cool?” And, you know, but you gotta get to the “do you know it?” So let’s pretend superstring theory or something like it is correct.

他们非常非常聪明，但是他们经常缺少一种实用主义，因为他们说：“好吧，超弦，看，你知道，有这些振动的小东西，这不是很酷吗？”而且，你知道，但你必须问“你知道吗？”所以让我们假设超弦理论或类似的理论是正确的。

The energy scale at which that should occur is of order 10 to the 15 times higher, 10 to the 19 GeV.

发生这种情况的能量尺度是 10 到 15 倍，即 10 到 19 GeV。

We can currently do things at 10 to the fourth GeV, give or take.

我们目前可以在 10 到第四个 GeV 的速度上做事，无论给予还是接受。

So that is 10 to the 15.

所以这是 10 到 15。

That’s a quadrillion times higher energy.

那是四万亿倍的能量。

So what we are doing now is we are looking at the world with our very best measurements, and we are trying to project out a quadrillion times higher and figure out a theory that explains everything.

所以我们现在正在做的是，我们正在用最好的测量来观察世界，我们正在努力预测一个四万亿倍的高度，并找出一个可以解释一切的理论。

1:23:17 Now, I, I, I have this– I have a couple of analogies, but I like this.

现在，我，我，我有这个——我有几个类比，但我喜欢这个。

Suppose that you were some, you know, Joe Australopithecus 2 million years ago or something in Africa, wandering around somewhere in Kenya.

假设你是 200 万年前的南方古猿乔或非洲的某种生物，在肯尼亚的某个地方徘徊。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Right?

正确的？

You’re about a meter in size, so you can walk a meter.

你的身高大约是一​​米，所以你可以走一米。

Meter scale is like your scale.

米刻度就像你的秤一样。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

You can walk 10 meters in every direction.

您可以向各个方向步行 10 米。

That’s 30 feet, no problem.

30 英尺，没问题。

You can work 100 meters, 300 feet.

您可以工作 100 米、300 英尺。

You can work 1,000 meters.

您可以工作 1000 米。

That’s half a mile.

那是半英里。

You can work 10,000 meters.

您可以工作 10,000 米。

That’s 60 miles.

那是 60 英里。

100,000 meters is 10 to the fifth and, and that, that’s unlikely.

100,000 米是十的五分之一，而且这不太可能。

But the distance that we need to go from what we can see to the Planck scale, it’s not 10 to the fifth, it’s 10 to the 15th.

但是我们所看到的距离到普朗克尺度的距离，不是 10 到 5 次，而是 10 到 15 次。

So that means, in my analogy, think about this guy who’s walking around Africa.

所以，用我的比喻来说，这意味着，想想这个在非洲行走的人。

1:24:06 Now, if he walks, you know, 100 feet or something, it looks a lot like what it is now.

现在，如果他走路，你知道，100英尺之类的，看起来很像现在的样子。

He can make a prediction about what he sees, and when he goes to that new place, it’s probably going to be okay.

他可以对他所看到的东西做出预测，当他去那个新地方时，可能会没事的。

But if he starts walking 500 miles east, well, he, walking around the center of Africa, has no concept of, for instance, the Indian Ocean.

但如果他开始向东行走 500 英里，那么，他绕着非洲中心行走，就没有印度洋等概念。

He would never predict sperm whales or kraken.

他永远不会预测抹香鲸或海妖。

He would never predict what it’s like—the bottom of the ocean is going north.

他永远无法预测那会是什么样子——海底正在向北移动。

He’s in Africa.

他在非洲。

He would never, ever have a clue about the Alps or Antarctica.

他永远不会对阿尔卑斯山或南极洲有任何线索。

Going even smaller distances, going a mile up, things wouldn’t be very different.

走更短的距离，走一英里，事情不会有太大不同。

But if he goes 10 miles up, he wouldn’t breathe and he’d freeze.

但如果他上升 10 英里，他就无法呼吸并且会被冻住。

If he goes 100 miles up, he would die.

如果他上升100英里，他就会死。

If he goes two miles down, he would roast.

如果他向下走两英里，他就会被烤熟。

1:24:53 The point being is we are like that Australopithecus.

关键是我们就像南方古猿。

We have a realm that we can study, and we can even predict to some validity what would happen if we go some distance away.

我们有一个可以研究的领域，我们甚至可以在一定程度上预测如果我们离开一定距离会发生什么。

But the farther away we go, the less and less our local prediction really represents the reality of those more distant times.

但我们走得越远，我们当地的预测就越不能真正代表那些更遥远时代的现实。

And so basically, his theory about the world would be totally bogus.

所以基本上，他关于世界的理论是完全错误的。

So even if he had the best theory, his theory would not have anticipated the Alps.

因此，即使他有最好的理论，他的理论也不会预见到阿尔卑斯山。

It would not have anticipated penguins.

它不会预料到企鹅。

Right?

正确的？

Flamingos, not there.

火烈鸟，不在那里。

Yeah.

是的。

You know?

你知道？

And that is just the case.

事实就是如此。

So now that’s what we’re doing.

所以现在这就是我们正在做的事情。

We are taking something and we have reason to understand what we know and we can predict a factor of 10 or 100.

我们正在采取一些东西，我们有理由理解我们所知道的东西，并且我们可以预测 10 或 100 的系数。

1:25:48 But I think it is the absolute, the pinnacle of arrogance to think that what we can do given the understanding that we have from what we’ve measured now and predict it out a quadrillion times higher than we can see now.

但我认为，根据我们现在测量到的理解，我们可以做什么，并预测它比我们现在看到的高出千万亿倍，这是绝对的、傲慢的顶峰。

So my opinion, and this is partly because I’m an experimentalist, the correct way to make progress—practical progress towards a theory of everything—is to look around at the things that we don’t have answers to right now.

所以我的观点是，部分因为我是一名实验主义者，取得进步的正确方法——向万有理论迈进的实际进展——就是环顾四周，看看我们现在还没有答案的事情。

For instance, are there some things smaller than quarks?

例如，有没有比夸克更小的东西？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

Is dark matter real?

暗物质是真实的吗？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

If it’s real, what is it?

如果是真的，那是什么？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

Is dark energy real?

暗能量真实存在吗？

Yes, probably, but I don’t know.

是的，可能是，但我不知道。

What is the nature of space and time?

空间和时间的本质是什么？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

1:26:35 But these are questions we can explore, and I would expect, and this is my prediction, that, all right, we’re gonna figure things out at a factor of 10 or 100 times better than we can do now, and we might be able to do that in my kid’s lifetime or something like that.

但这些是我们可以探索的问题，我希望这是我的预测，好吧，我们会以比现在好 10 或 100 倍的速度解决问题，而且我们也许能够在我孩子的有生之年或类似的事情上做到这一点。

But in order for us to predict a quadrillion times higher, I’m pretty sure superstring theory is wrong.

但为了让我们预测更高的四万亿倍，我很确定超弦理论是错误的。

Not because people aren’t smart, but because something new is going to happen.

不是因为人们不聪明，而是因为新的事情即将发生。

I mean, if you were talking about chemistry, you would have never predicted nuclear physics, and that’s a small increase in energy, right?

我的意思是，如果你谈论化学，你永远不会预测核物理，那只是能量的小幅增加，对吧？

1:27:08 The idea that there’s something in the nucleus of atoms that causes the sun to burn, there’s a reason why people didn’t believe, you know, they, they calculated how old the sun should be, and it should only be 10 million years old because otherwise it would burn out.

原子核中有某种东西导致太阳燃烧的想法，人们不相信是有原因的，你知道，他们计算出太阳应该有多大，它应该只有一千万年，因为否则它就会燃烧殆尽。

Well, that’s clearly wrong, and it’s wrong because of nuclear physics.

嗯，这显然是错误的，而且这是错误的，因为核物理。

That is why I feel fairly confident to say, while someone could think, well, superstring might be right or something, and maybe it’s right, and I hope it’s right.

这就是为什么我相当有信心地说，虽然有人可能会认为，嗯，超弦可能是对的，也许是对的，我希望它是对的。

It would be awesome if it’s right.

如果是对的那就太好了。

But what are the odds when you’re making something with that tiny lever arm, predicting it out a quadrillion away and say, “Oh, yeah, we got it right.” What are the odds?

但是，当你用那个微小的杠杆臂制作一些东西时，预测到千万亿之外并说：“哦，是的，我们做对了。”的可能性有多大。几率有多大？

And my answer is, you gotta be kidding me.

我的回答是，你一定是在跟我开玩笑吧。

1:27:50 Now, I could be wrong, and I admit that I could be wrong, but that’s why I think the real issue is not the brilliance of humanity.

现在，我可能是错的，我承认我可能是错的，但这就是为什么我认为真正的问题不是人性的光辉。

It’s the stuff we haven’t found.

这是我们没有找到的东西。

We don’t know– I mean, the simple one, and I’m say it simple, and it’s not, but what is dark matter?

我们不知道——我的意思是，简单的，我说它简单，但事实并非如此，但暗物质是什么？

We don’t have a bleeping clue.

我们没有任何线索。

Not a clue.

没有任何线索。

We know a lot of what it isn’t, but we don’t know what it is.

我们知道很多它不是什么，但我们不知道它是什么。

And so, you know, talk about superstrings.

所以，你知道，谈论超弦。

All right, well, maybe dark matter fits in superstrings, or maybe dark matter is governed by a physics that is completely diametrically opposed to the superstring concept.

好吧，也许暗物质适合超弦，或者也许暗物质是由与超弦概念完全相反的物理学控制的。

And allow me a bit of a thought experiment here, a brief thought.

请允许我在这里进行一些思想实验，一个简短的想法。

1:28:26 My intuition says that when you propose a theory of everything, the kind of prediction you want to make involves a kind of leap of conceptual understanding that Einstein did.

我的直觉告诉我，当你提出一个万有理论时，你想要做出的预测涉及到爱因斯坦所做的概念理解的飞跃。

So, for example, you want to come up with something like space time and then gravity-

所以，举例来说，你想要想出诸如时空之类的东西，然后是引力——

Sure

当然可以

…bends space, space time.

……弯曲空间，时空。

1:28:50 So it’s not merely that you have this beautiful mathematical framework, but that framework allows you to rethink how you see reality enough to make a prediction that’s about the macro world.

因此，你不仅拥有这个美丽的数学框架，而且该框架可以让你重新思考如何看待现实，从而做出有关宏观世界的预测。

I mean, to come up with something like space time, you know, there’s one idea, for instance, to say that space and time aren’t real.

我的意思是，要提出像时空这样的东西，你知道，有一个想法，例如，说空间和时间不是真实的。

1:29:10 They emerge from entropy.

它们是从熵中产生的。

Yeah, that’s a way of, a new way of thinking, and maybe there’s some validity, and I want people to think about it.

是的，这是一种方式，一种新的思维方式，也许有一定的有效性，我希望人们思考它。

But in the end, it’s just an idea, and that’s the real key thing.

但归根结底，这只是一个想法，这才是真正关键的事情。

And, and as you say, it has to tie to a macro world.

而且，正如你所说，它必须与宏观世界联系起来。

You have to validate.

你必须验证。

If you don’t validate, it’s a crazy idea.

如果你不验证，这就是一个疯狂的想法。

Theorists are incredibly creative, smart, wonderfully interesting people, but I don’t care.

理论家是非常有创造力、聪明、非常有趣的人，但我不在乎。

I want a measurement that validates the idea because there are so many– I mean, if you read the journals, there are so many theoretical papers with all these nifty ideas that die.

我想要一个能够验证这个想法的测量方法，因为有太多的——我的意思是，如果你阅读期刊，就会发现有很多理论论文，其中所有这些漂亮的想法都消失了。

1:29:59 You know one that was recently I liked and, and might still be true was that dark matter that, you know, our simple model of dark matter is that there’s a subatomic particle out there that’s heavy, and it’s floating around, and it’s causing gravity.

你知道最近我喜欢的一个，而且可能仍然是真实的，那就是暗物质，你知道，我们简单的暗物质模型是，那里有一个亚原子粒子，它很重，它漂浮在周围，它引起重力。

But someone said, “Well, you know, maybe there’s complex dark matter,” which means there’s a whole dark sector, so there are dark atoms, and they interact with one another.

但有人说，“嗯，你知道，也许存在复杂的暗物质”，这意味着存在一个完整的暗区域，因此存在暗原子，并且它们彼此相互作用。

And that is a nifty idea, and I love it.

这是一个很棒的主意，我喜欢它。

And that was all the rage for a while, and we looked at it, and it may still be true, but the simple ideas have been mostly invalidated because we’ve tested it and it doesn’t work.

这种说法风靡了一段时间，我们研究了它，它可能仍然是正确的，但简单的想法大多已经失效，因为我们已经测试过它，但它不起作用。

Same thing, there was a talk about large extra dimensions.

同样的事情，还有关于大额外维度的讨论。

1:30:39 The reason that gravity is so much weaker than the other forces was, well, maybe gravity can sneak into more dimensions than the other forces.

引力比其他力弱得多的原因是，也许引力可以比其他力潜入更多的维度。

It leaks into those dimensions.

它会渗入那些维度。

That was a cool idea.

这是一个很酷的主意。

1:30:49 I mean, but that’s the point is you have these lovely, cool, interesting ideas that constantly die.

我的意思是，但关键是你有这些可爱、酷、有趣的想法，但它们却不断消亡。

And so, you know, I would love for a new nifty idea to be the idea, but I don’t know how to pick it out of the hurricane of wrong ideas.

所以，你知道，我希望有一个新的漂亮想法成为这个想法，但我不知道如何从错误想法的飓风中挑选出来。

I mean, that’s the real beauty of science.

我的意思是，这就是科学的真正魅力。

1:31:08 It really is– I mean, the theories kind of get some of the glory sometimes, but the real beauty emerges from the experiment and the demonstration that the theory is correct.

确实如此——我的意思是，理论有时会获得一些荣耀，但真正的美来自于实验和理论正确性的证明。

And there are two directions.

并且有两个方向。

1:31:22 You’re talking a top-down.

你说的是自上而下的。

Someone comes up with this big idea that’s testable.

有人提出了这个可以测试的好主意。

But you also have the other way that science advances, and it’s not with a theory that is then tested.

但科学进步也有另一种方式，而且不是用随后经过检验的理论。

It’s with the, “Huh, that’s weird.” For instance, either in, in the 1930s with Fritz Zwicky or in the 1970s with Vera Rubin, she did a simple thing.

就是“嗯，这很奇怪。”例如，无论是在 20 世纪 30 年代与 Fritz Zwicky 合作，还是在 1970 年代与 Vera Rubin 合作，她都做了一件简单的事情。

She said, “How fast are galaxies rotating?” ‘Cause it’s an easy thing to calculate.

她说：“星系旋转的速度有多快？”因为这是一件很容易计算的事情。

You could literally calculate that with high school physics.

你可以用高中物理来计算它。

And you get an answer, and then you measure it, and it’s wrong.

你得到一个答案，然后你测量它，结果是错误的。

And so I’ll– That, that’s the, wow, huh, I don’t know what that is.

所以我会——那个，就是那个，哇，呵呵，我不知道那是什么。

And that led to the hypothesis of, of dark matter.

这导致了暗物质的假设。

Now, dark matter is not a theory of everything, but it’s a clue.

现在，暗物质并不是万有理论，但它是一条线索。

It’s a powerful clue.

这是一个强有力的线索。

1:32:08 We should pull, tug at that thread.

我们应该拉、拉那根线。

Maybe our entire theoretical edifice unravels, or maybe it doesn’t.

也许我们的整个理论大厦会瓦解，也可能不会。

Maybe it’s just a snag, and we can fix what we have now.

也许这只是一个障碍，我们可以修复现有的问题。

I’m not sure.

我不知道。

So that’s another option is to simply look at many measurements that are very precise and find ones where the outcome and the prediction with established theory disagree, and that is a clue.

因此，另一种选择是简单地查看许多非常精确的测量结果，并找到结果与既定理论的预测不一致的测量结果，这就是一条线索。

Before we leave the topic, we gotta talk about string theory.

在离开这个话题之前，我们得谈谈弦理论。

1:32:33 In your view, is it basically dead?

在你看来，它基本上已经死了吗？

As I understand one of the primary flaws of string theory, outside of the testable experiments that we’re talking about, is because it relies on these unobserved extra dimensions, there was a hope that it uniquely could explain our universe, but it turns out this, quote, “landscape,” there’s an enormous so-called landscape of possibilities it leads to.

据我了解，弦理论的主要缺陷之一，除了我们正在谈论的可测试实验之外，是因为它依赖于这些未被观察到的额外维度，人们希望它能够以独特的方式解释我们的宇宙，但事实证明，引用“景观”，它会导致一个巨大的所谓的可能性景观。

And so it renders the theory basically unpredictive, ’cause it can describe all kinds of universes-

因此它使得这个理论基本上是不可预测的，因为它可以描述所有类型的宇宙——

Sure

当然可以

…

……

1:33:13 and therefore you can just select tune it to describe ours.

因此您可以选择调整它来描述我们的。

I agree to a degree.

我在某种程度上同意。

1:33:19 But I bring it back to my prior objection.

但我还是把它带回到我之前的反对意见上。

It is absolutely true that superstring theory at, in its current manifestation, aside from the extra dimensions, which are some level small potatoes, it allows for an extremely large number of possible universes.

毫无疑问，超弦理论就其目前的表现而言，除了额外维度（在某种程度上是小人物）之外，它还允许存在极其大量的可能宇宙。

But if we were able to take those predictions and somehow connect it to a physical measurement, then what we would do is we’d lop off those alternatives.

但如果我们能够做出这些预测并以某种方式将其与物理测量联系起来，那么我们要做的就是放弃这些替代方案。

We’d throw them away as saying, “Well, you know, those are like an equation, you know, X plus five.” I can put in any number I want in there, it doesn’t matter.

我们会把它们扔掉，说：“嗯，你知道，这些就像一个方程式，你知道，X 加五。”我可以在那里输入任何我想要的数字，这并不重要。

But if X plus five equals nine, then I’ve ruled out a whole bunch of numbers except four.

但如果 X 加五等于九，那么我就排除了除了四之外的一大堆数字。

1:34:17 And so this is a case of string theory does allow for many predictions, but if we could rule them out by connection to a measurement, then it would no longer do it.

因此，弦理论确实允许许多预测，但如果我们可以通过与测量的联系来排除它们，那么它就不再这样做了。

We would modify string theory, and we would retain the vibrating string concept, which I really, really like.

我们会修改弦理论，并保留振动弦的概念，这是我非常非常喜欢的。

I mean, I really like it.

我是说，我真的很喜欢它。

But until we can validate this, we can’t.

但在我们能够验证这一点之前，我们不能。

So now you ask, is it dead or not?

那么现在你问，它死了还是没死？

In my opinion, it is very difficult to kill such a theory.

在我看来，要扼杀这样的理论是非常困难的。

I mean, really, truly kill it, ’cause kill it means make a prediction and it fails.

我的意思是，真的，真正杀死它，因为杀死它意味着做出预测，但它会失败。

But what can happen and what is happening is people have been working on it since the ’70s.

但可能发生的事情和正在发生的事情是人们自 70 年代以来就一直在努力。

So we’re talking of order 50 years, people have been working on it, and it has not solved the problem.

所以我们谈论秩序50年来，人们一直在努力，但它并没有解决问题。

1:35:08 And so I think what’s happening is people are looking at that and saying, “I, do I wanna spend my life working in this direction with the very likely possibility that 30 years from now we’ll be not much farther along than we are now?” It’s a lot like back in the 1940s when people started thinking about the meaning of quantum mechanics.

所以我认为正在发生的事情是，人们正在关注这一点并说：“我，我是否愿意一生都朝这个方向努力，并且很可能 30 年后我们不会比现在走得更远？”这很像 20 世纪 40 年代，当时人们开始思考量子力学的含义。

And I wanted to do that when I was a kid in, in the ’70s.

当我还是个孩子的时候，也就是 70 年代，我就想这么做。

But then when I went to grad school, I realized that people, very smart people, people smarter than me, had been working on that for most of their lives and made no definitive progress.

但当我进入研究生院时，我意识到人们，非常聪明的人，比我聪明的人，一生中的大部分时间都在致力于这一点，但没有取得明确的进展。

And so you have to decide, as a scientist who wants to answer questions, do I really wanna take on a question that is so hard that it will not be answered in my lifetime?

所以你必须决定，作为一个想要回答问题的科学家，我真的想回答一个如此困难以至于在我有生之年都无法得到答案的问题吗？

1:35:55 And I think that’s what’s happening with a lot of superstring theories.

我认为这就是许多超弦理论所发生的情况。

People are saying, “It’s really neat.

人们说：“这真的很整洁。

It might be right, but I don’t wanna devote my life to something that I might not see progress forward in my lifetime.”

这也许是对的，但我不想把我的一生奉献给我一生中可能看不到进展的事情。”

What do you think about the alternate theories?

您对替代理论有何看法？

1:36:08 Do you think there’s anything interesting in those?

你觉得其中有什么有趣的地方吗？

You know, many of those theories are espoused by passionate people.

你知道，其中许多理论都受到充满热情的人们的拥护。

1:36:14 They have fans.

他们有粉丝。

People love them, but they don’t do what science needs to do, which is make predictions.

人们喜欢它们，但它们没有做科学需要做的事情，即做出预测。

Now, loop quantum gravity is a little different.

现在，圈量子引力有点不同。

That one is better developed, and that one is not a theory of everything, so we should make that clear.

这个理论已经得到了更好的发展，而且这个理论并不是万能的理论，所以我们应该澄清这一点。

Loop quantum gravity is not a theory of everything.

圈量子引力并不是万有理论。

It is simply a theory of quantum gravity, period.

这只是量子引力理论，周期。

It does not aspire to include all of the known forces.

它并不渴望包含所有已知的力量。

It simply tries to take gravity, which is currently intrinsically, it treats space as smooth and continuous.

它只是试图吸收重力，而重力目前本质上是它把空间视为平滑和连续的。

For those of your viewers who are mathematically inclined, in Einstein’s theory of general relativity, gravity is infinitely divisible.

对于那些喜欢数学的观众来说，在爱因斯坦的广义相对论中，引力是无限可分的。

1:37:04 There is no smallest bit, and so essentially the laws of calculus apply.

没有最小的位，因此基本上适用微积分定律。

However, it is possible that at a small enough scale space is no longer divisible in the same way that you can, you know, take a cup of water out of a swimming pool and then a quarter a cup and so forth.

然而，在足够小的尺度下，空间可能不再像从游泳池中取出一杯水，然后取出四分之一杯水那样可整除。

But eventually, once you’ve taken out a single molecule of water, you can no longer take out a smaller thing.

但最终，一旦你取出了一个水分子，你就无法再取出更小的水分子了。

So loop quantum gravity attempts to quantize gravity, so that’s what it does.

所以圈量子引力试图量子化引力，所以它就是这么做的。

And so this is unlike string theory, which attempts to bring gravity in with the other forces.

因此，这与弦理论不同，弦理论试图将重力与其他力结合起来。

And in fact, the reason, the fundamental, the one reason why string theory became so interesting to the theoretical community is string theory was not being developed as a theory of everything.

事实上，弦理论对理论界如此感兴趣的根本原因和唯一原因是弦理论并没有被发展为一种万有理论。

1:38:00 It was being developed as a theory of the strong force, and it was in competition with QCD, which is the currently accepted theory of the strong force.

它是作为强力理论而发展的，并且与目前公认的强力理论 QCD 形成竞争。

And it turned out the two groups, the string theory groups and the QCD groups competed for a while, and string theory basically failed the race, and people paid attention to quantum chromodynamics, QCD.

事实证明，弦论组和QCD组这两个组竞争了一段时间，弦论基本上失败了，人们开始关注量子色动力学QCD。

But then somebody noticed in string theory that one of the things it predicted was a zero mass spin-2 particle.

但后来有人在弦理论中注意到它所预测的事物之一是零质量自旋 2 粒子。

And you can prove that any zero mass spin-2 particle is the graviton.

你可以证明任何零质量自旋 2 粒子都是引力子。

1:38:41 And so if you see a theory that has a zero mass spin-2 particle, you now have a candidate for dragging gravity in, and then, oh my gosh, people got terribly excited because now this theory, which was working in the direction of the other quantum forces, brought in gravity, and now it was a candidate theory for everything.

因此，如果你看到一个具有零质量自旋 2 粒子的理论，你现在就有了一个将引力引入的候选理论，然后，天哪，人们变得非常兴奋，因为现在这个理论，它在其他量子力的方向上起作用，引入了引力，现在它是所有事物的候选理论。

But that’s not what loop quantum gravity is.

但这不是圈量子引力。

Loop quantum gravity is simply trying to understand the nature of space itself, which is already a fantastic thing.

圈量子引力只是试图了解空间本身的本质，这已经是一件了不起的事情了。

And, you know, I talk to Rovelli every so often.

而且，你知道，我经常和罗维利交谈。

I write about his theory and I point out some of the issues with the theory, but I’m usually about, like, two months behind as he and his colleagues are developing and so forth.

我写了他的理论，并指出了该理论的一些问题，但我通常会落后两个月，因为他和他的同事正在开发等等。

1:39:25 ‘Cause one of the things is originally loop quantum gravity predicted that the speed of light would not be universal.

因为其中一件事最初是圈量子引力预测光速不会普遍存在。

The speed of light would depend on the frequency of the light.

光速取决于光的频率。

So high frequency would travel at one speed, and low frequency would travel at a different speed, and it had to do with the wavelength of light basically interacting with the structure of space if, you know.

因此，高频将以一种速度传播，而低频将以不同的速度传播，这与光的波长基本上与空间结构相互作用有关，如果你知道的话。

And so that was an issue with loop quantum gravity.

这就是圈量子引力的一个问题。

1:39:51 And so if you look at gamma ray bursters, which are, you know, super explosions of astronomical events that are a billion light years away or more, and they spit out light in all wavelengths, and if that loop quantum gravity prediction were correct, when you saw one of these gamma ray bursters, you would see the wavelength of one light appearing on Earth at a different time than another wavelength because of the different speeds, and that wasn’t the case.

因此，如果你观察伽马射线爆发，你知道，这是十亿光年或更远的天文事件的超级爆炸，它们发出所有波长的光，如果环量子引力预测是正确的，当你看到其中一个伽马射线爆发时，你会看到一种光的波长由于速度不同而在不同的时间与另一种波长出现在地球上，但事实并非如此。

They appear at the same time.

他们同时出现。

And so I went on to say, “Well, this pretty much killed loop quantum gravity,” only to get a prickly note from Mr. or Dr. Rovelli saying, “You know, we’ve disproved that.

所以我接着说，“嗯，这几乎是死循环量子引力”，结果却收到罗维利先生或博士的尖刻的说明，“你知道，我们已经反驳了这一点。

We’ve changed the theory.”

我们改变了理论。”

1:40:33 That’s no longer true, and now that prediction, that old prediction of loop quantum gravity is no longer valid.” And so that observation of the uniformity of the speed of light no longer kills the new loop quantum gravity.

这不再是真的，现在那个预测，那个关于圈量子引力的旧预测不再有效了。”因此，对光速均匀性的观察不再会扼杀新的圈量子引力。

It would’ve killed the old one, but it didn’t kill the new one.

它会杀死旧的，但不会杀死新的。

By the way, that example of different speeds of light based on wavelength, that’s a beautiful thing that a theory—That’s a testable thing.

顺便说一句，基于波长不同光速的例子，这是一个美丽的理论，这是一个可测试的东西。

It is.

是的。

Right?

对吗？

1:41:03 So, like, those kinds of things, and if it in fact did explain a phenomena of that sort, that’s a good sign for the theory, right?

所以，就像这类事情，如果它确实解释了这类现象，那么这对于该理论来说是一个好兆头，对吗？

If it correctly predicted.

如果预测正确的话。

There was another brilliant observation recently.

最近还有另一个精彩的观察。

1:41:11 Love it.

喜欢它。

The observation of gravity waves.

引力波的观测。

And it was from two neutron stars orbiting and coalescing.

它来自两颗绕轨道运行并合并的中子星。

And so they made gravitational waves, fantastic, but they also, because they were not black holes, they were neutron stars, they hit and exploded, gave off a tremendous bright flash of light.

所以它们产生了引力波，太棒了，但它们也因为它们不是黑洞，它们是中子星，它们撞击并爆炸，发出巨大的明亮闪光。

And so astronomers saw the flash.

天文学家就这样看到了闪光。

1:41:42 Gravitational wave astronomers saw the ripples of space-time.

引力波天文学家看到了时空的涟漪。

It was 140 million light years away, which means light would’ve traveled 140 million years to get here, and the two incidents, light and gravity, both arrived within 1.7 seconds of one another.

它距离我们 1.4 亿光年，这意味着光需要行驶 1.4 亿年才能到达这里，而光和引力这两个事件的到达时间都在 1.7 秒之内。

And that tells you that gravity travels at the speed of light.

这告诉你引力以光速传播。

That was a brilliant, fantastic measurement.

这是一个出色、奇妙的测量。

Now, we thought gravity traveled at the speed of light, but now we have a measurement, we proved it, and damn it, I am impressed.

现在，我们认为重力以光速传播，但现在我们有了测量结果，我们证明了这一点，该死的，我印象深刻。

Our universe is so fascinating.

我们的宇宙是如此迷人。

1:42:15 Speaking of which, since we brought up antimatter, we’ll have to talk about it.

说到这里，既然提到了反物质，那就不得不说一下了。

You’ve talked about it in several of your lectures from different angles, including the dark energy crisis and including empty space and vacuum and so on.

您在好几场讲座中从不同的角度谈到了这个问题，包括暗能量危机，包括空旷的空间和真空等等。

So let’s look at the empty space angle.

那么让我们看看空白的空间角度。

So you know, it turns out that empty space is not empty.

所以你知道，原来空的空间并不空。

It’s true.

这是真的。

1:42:40 Which is kind of bizarre.

这有点奇怪。

Can you speak about what do we know about what makes up empty space?

您能谈谈我们对空白空间的构成了解多少吗？

That’s a hard, hard question because we don’t know what space is.

这是一个非常非常困难的问题，因为我们不知道空间是什么。

1:42:47 But let’s start out-

但让我们开始吧——

1:42:52 …

……

let’s just start out with something simple.

让我们从简单的事情开始吧。

We’ll assume that space is not quantized, okay?

我们假设空间没有量子化，好吗？

Now, it probably is, I don’t know, but, you know, we gotta start with somewhere.

现在，可能是，我不知道，但是，你知道，我们必须从某个地方开始。

So let’s start out with sort of the space of calculus, the space that you can divide forever.

因此，让我们从微积分的空间开始，这个空间可以永远划分。

The modern version of quantum mechanics is called quantum field theory, and it postulates that, A, space exists.

量子力学的现代版本称为量子场论，它假设空间存在。

Then it postulates that within space there exist fields for every known subatomic particle.

然后它假设在空间中存在每个已知的亚原子粒子的场。

So there is a photon field, there’s an electron field, there’s an up quark field, there’s a down quark field.

所以有一个光子场，有一个电子场，有一个上夸克场，有一个下夸克场。

There’s all the fields.

那里有所有的领域。

And those fields can vibrate, and when they vibrate, those are the subatomic particles.

这些场可以振动，当它们振动时，这些就是亚原子粒子。

So an electron field vibrating in a characteristic way is an electron.

因此，以特定方式振动的电子场就是电子。

1:43:48 Now, it’s also possible for the electron field to vibrate not in the characteristic way, but in a way that’s still vibrating, but it’s not an exact electron.

现在，电子场也有可能不以特有的方式振动，而是以仍在振动的方式振动，但它不是一个精确的电子。

So this is what we call virtual particles.

这就是我们所说的虚粒子。

Now, virtual particles, there are lots of ways to talk about them, and the way I’m talking about now is the most correct and the most sophisticated way that we can talk about them.

现在，虚拟粒子，有很多方法可以谈论它们，而我现在谈论的方式是我们可以谈论它们的最正确、最复杂的方式。

I will talk about them briefly in a simpler way to help.

我将以更简单的方式简要讨论它们以提供帮助。

But right now, that’s the important thing, is that there are these fields.

但现在，最重要的是有这些领域。

Specific vibrations are the known particles.

特定的振动是已知的粒子。

Vibrations that are a little different are these virtual particles.

这些虚拟粒子的振动略有不同。

They’re particles that don’t truly exist.

它们是并不真正存在的粒子。

And so that is what we think space is.

这就是我们所认为的空间。

There is all of these fields.

所有这些领域都有。

1:44:46 They’re all vibrating a little.

它们都在轻微振动。

If you insert the right amount of energy, you can get it to vibrate in the characteristic way and make that subatomic particle.

如果注入适量的能量，就可以让它以特有的方式振动并产生亚原子粒子。

But even when you don’t—There is the particles, I mean the fields are there and they are vibrating.

但即使你不这样做——粒子也存在，我的意思是场就在那里并且它们在振动。

So those vibrations are what we called virtual particles.

所以这些振动就是我们所说的虚粒子。

Now, your viewers may have heard of virtual particles in other ways, in which case it says that space is just empty, and what happens is matter and antimatter particles briefly appear for a very short period of time before they coalesce back again and disappear and re-emerge back into the field.

现在，您的观众可能以其他方式听说过虚拟粒子，在这种情况下，它说空间只是空的，所发生的情况是物质和反物质粒子短暂地出现了很短的一段时间，然后再次合并并消失并重新出现在场中。

And so these are both correct.

所以这些都是正确的。

1:45:27 So what happens is, is that’s what quantum field theory says, is it says that these ripples are appearing or these particles are appearing and disappearing.

所以发生的事情是，这就是量子场论所说的，它说这些涟漪正在出现，或者这些粒子正在出现和消失。

And so that just sounds nuts.

这听起来很疯狂。

You look at empty space, you’re not seeing anything happening.

你看着空旷的空间，你看不到任何事情发生。

But they’re happening fast enough that they can’t be seen, but they do have consequences.

但它们发生的速度足够快，以至于无法被看到，但它们确实会产生后果。

And there are two experimental measurements that I can think of that validate that this thing that sounds crazy is really happening, and one is called the Casimir effect.

我能想到的两个实验测量可以验证这听起来疯狂的事情确实正在发生，其中一个称为卡西米尔效应。

So in the Casimir effect, you take two metal plates, the parallel plates, and you put them near one another, very, very close.

因此，在卡西米尔效应中，你需要两个金属板，即平行板，然后将它们彼此靠近，非常非常接近。

1:46:08 Now, if this is the case, if, if these virtual particles exist, then in between the plates, these particles appearing and disappearing, and outside the plates, the particles are appearing and disappearing.

现在，如果是这样的话，如果，如果这些虚拟粒子存在，那么在板之间，这些粒子出现和消失，在板之外，粒子出现和消失。

However, because these plates are close to one another, this puts a constraint on the wavelength of the particles that can occur between the two plates because they, the particles cannot extend outside the plates.

然而，由于这些板彼此靠近，这对两个板之间可能出现的粒子的波长施加了限制，因为粒子不能延伸到板之外。

So the short wavelength particles can exist inside the– between the plates, but the longer ones cannot.

因此，短波长粒子可以存在于板之间的内部，但较长波长粒子则不能。

However, outside the plates, there is no constraint, so short wavelength and long wavelength particles can exist there.

然而，在板之外，没有限制，因此短波长和长波长粒子可以存在于那里。

1:46:52 And the net effect is there are more virtual particles outside and less particles inside, and therefore you have a net pressure which would then push those two plates together.

最终的效果是外部有更多的虚拟粒子，内部有更少的粒子，因此你有一个净压力，可以将这两个板推到一起。

That is a prediction we’ve been talking about, and guess what?

这是我们一直在谈论的预测，你猜怎么着？

It happens.

它发生了。

Those plates push together.

这些板块推在一起。

So that is a validation for the existence of these particles in empty space.

所以这是对这些粒子在真空中存在的验证。

Now, there is another measurement, and this changes the magnetic properties of particles like the electron, the muon and so forth.

现在，还有另一种测量，这会改变电子、μ子等粒子的磁性。

And so this was discovered in nineteen forty-eight.

所以这是在十九四十八年发现的。

So if you take old school standard quantum mechanics you know the spin of an electron, you know its charge, you can calculate its magnetic moment, and it comes out to a number.

因此，如果你采用老式标准量子力学，你就知道电子的自旋，你知道它的电荷，你可以计算它的磁矩，并得出一个数字。

1:47:40 If you do the measurement, what you find is the measurement disagrees with the quantum mechanics, the nineteen thirties quantum mechanical prediction by point one percent, and that was measured in nineteen forty-eight.

如果你进行测量，你会发现测量结果与量子力学不一致，19世纪30年代量子力学的预测与19世纪48年代测量的量子力学预测相差百分之一。

And people went, “Huh.” So this happened at Shelter Island Conference in New York.

人们“嗯”了一声。这就是在纽约谢尔特岛会议上发生的事情。

And on the way home, someone who saw the, this measurement thought about it, and they invented what we now call quantum electrodynamics.

在回家的路上，看到这个测量的人想到了这一点，他们发明了我们现在所说的量子电动力学。

So old quantum mechanics quantizes matter.

所以旧的量子力学量化了物质。

The second quantization quantizes both matter and the fields, in this case, quantized the electric fields.

第二次量化同时量化物质和场，在本例中，量化电场。

1:48:23 And so in this quantized field, it predicts that surrounding a bare, say, electron, which is spinning and has a, has a charge, there is this, this bath of particles, virtual particles appearing and disappearing all around it.

因此，在这个量子化场中，它预测围绕着一个裸露的电子，该电子正在旋转并且带有电荷，存在这个粒子浴，虚拟粒子在其周围出现和消失。

And the ensemble of all of those particles appearing and disappearing will alter the magnetic properties that you can measure for the subatomic particle, and it changes it by point one percent.

所有这些出现和消失的粒子的集合将改变你可以测量的亚原子粒子的磁性，并且它会改变百分之一。

And we have measured this, and we have not measured this imprecisely.

我们已经测量了这一点，而且我们没有不精确地测量这一点。

We have measured the magnetic properties of both the electron and the muon to twelve, count them, twelve significant figures.

我们已经将电子和μ子的磁性测量到了十二位，数一下，十二位有效数字。

And the theory and the data agree number for number for ten places.

理论和数据在十位数字上一致。

1:49:17 And then once you get out to the very end where both the theory and the data have some imprecision, they then disagree.

一旦你走到最后，理论和数据都有些不精确，他们就会不同意。

And so maybe there’s some interesting stuff going on there.

所以也许那里正在发生一些有趣的事情。

But ten figures, it’s just staggering.

但十位数，实在是太惊人了。

So virtual particles refer to matter and antimatter particles coming to life.

因此，虚粒子是指物质和反物质粒子的诞生。

Correct.

正确的。

Can we just talk about the antimatter part of that?

我们可以只谈谈反物质部分吗？

1:49:38 So starting with Paul Dirac, one of the most legendary examples of math leading to physics.

那么从保罗·狄拉克开始吧，他是数学通向物理学的最具传奇色彩的例子之一。

So the math suggesting that something like an antimatter should exist, and Paul Dirac taking it seriously and then eventually showing that it does exist.

因此，数学表明像反物质这样的东西应该存在，保罗·狄拉克认真对待它，然后最终证明它确实存在。

So what evidence do we have for antimatter?

那么我们有什么反物质的证据呢？

So antimatter was predicted in nineteen twenty-eight.

所以反物质被预测在十九点二十八分。

1:50:02 Paul Dirac was trying to merge quantum mechanics and relativity because the original Schrödinger equation did not, was not relativistic.

保罗·狄拉克试图将量子力学和相对论融合起来，因为原来的薛定谔方程没有，也不是相对论性的。

And in doing so, he basically, the equations were complex, but in the end it came down to something like equation squared equals one.

在这样做的过程中，基本上，方程很复杂，但最终归结为方程平方等于一之类的东西。

You take the square root of both sides, you get equation equals plus one or minus one.

两边同时开平方根，得到的方程等于加一或减一。

Plus one was the electron, minus one was something.

加一是电子，减一是某种东西。

He didn’t know what it was.

他不知道那是什么。

There was some conversation for a while, thought maybe it might be the proton, but that didn’t seem to work out.

我们讨论了一段时间，认为可能是质子，但似乎没有成功。

1:50:36 And so he insisted that his equations were right and that there was an antimatter, he didn’t call it an antimatter, but a positively charged sibling of the electron, what we now call the positron, the antimatter electron.

因此，他坚持认为他的方程是正确的，并且存在反物质，他没有将其称为反物质，而是电子的带正电的兄弟姐妹，我们现在称之为正电子，反物质电子。

So it was predicted.

于是就预测到了。

It was discovered in nineteen thirty-two by Carl Anderson and his student Seth Neddermeyer.

它是由卡尔·安德森（Carl Anderson）和他的学生塞斯·内德迈尔（Seth Neddermeyer）于十九年三十二月发现的。

They saw an antimatter electron.

他们看到了反物质电子。

And that was pretty cool.

那真是太酷了。

So that right there, they knew it was real.

所以就在那里，他们知道这是真的。

Antimatter was predicted, it was observed, that’s that.

反物质被预测了，被观察到了，仅此而已。

In nineteen fifty-six, the antimatter proton was created, and that required a large particle accelerator, high enough energy to make it, and that was done at Berkeley.

十九点五十六分，反物质质子被创造出来，这需要一个大型粒子加速器和足够高的能量来制造它，而这是在伯克利完成的。

And a year later, the antimatter neutron was discovered.

一年后，反物质中子被发现。

1:51:26 So at this point, and now jumping ahead to now, we can make, using energy by smashing particles together, we can make antimatter protons, we can make antimatter electrons.

所以在这一点上，现在跳到现在，我们可以通过将粒子粉碎在一起来使用能量，我们可以制造反物质质子，我们可以制造反物质电子。

We have gone so far to make antimatter helium nuclei.

到目前为止，我们已经在制造反物质氦核方面取得了进展。

So we have made two antiprotons and two antineutrons, combined them together to make an antimatter helium nuclei.

所以我们制造了两个反质子和两个反中子，将它们组合在一起形成反物质氦核。

This has been done, been observed, no question.

毫无疑问，这已经被完成、被观察到。

At CERN, they have gone so far as to make antimatter hydrogen.

在欧洲核子研究中心，他们甚至制造出了反物质氢。

They take a beam off one of their lower energy accelerators.

他们从其中一个能量较低的加速器上取下一束光束。

They make antimatter protons.

它们产生反物质质子。

They collect them, they slow them down, they cool them to almost absolute zero.

他们收集它们，减慢它们的速度，将它们冷却到几乎绝对零。

They take sodium-22, which makes antimatter electrons.

他们采用钠 22，它可以产生反物质电子。

1:52:19 They slow them down, they bring them together, they coalesce them, and they make literal antimatter hydrogen atoms with an antimatter proton surrounded by an antimatter electron.

它们减慢它们的速度，将它们聚集在一起，将它们聚结在一起，然后用反物质电子包围的反物质质子来制造真正的反物质氢原子。

And they have done incredible measurements.

他们进行了令人难以置信的测量。

They have agitated the atoms and caused it to emit light.

它们搅动了原子并使其发光。

They have looked at the light that comes out of antimatter atoms.

他们观察了反物质原子发出的光。

And the question is, is does the light coming out of antimatter hydrogen atoms have exactly the same spectral characteristics as ordinary hydrogen, which we predict that it does?

问题是，反物质氢原子发出的光是否与我们预测的普通氢具有完全相同的光谱特性？

And the answer is it does.

答案是确实如此。

So the tests have been staggering.

所以测试是令人震惊的。

We now know a great deal about antimatter hydrogen.

我们现在对反物质氢了解很多。

1:53:01 Recently, recently like twenty twenty-three, I believe it was, one of the experiments called ALPHA at CERN made antimatter hydrogen, put it in a bottle and released it and watched which way it would go.

最近，最近大约二十二三岁，我相信是这样，欧洲核子研究中心的一个名为 ALPHA 的实验制造了反物质氢，将其放入瓶子中并释放出来，并观察它会流向哪个方向。

Did it fall up or did it fall down?

到底是掉下来了还是掉下来了呢？

Because while it kind of makes sense maybe to think that maybe antimatter falls up in the same way that we have Coulomb’s law, you’ve got electric charges, and they might attract or repel.

因为虽然认为反物质可能以与库仑定律相同的方式下落是有道理的，但你有电荷，它们可能会吸引或排斥。

However, there was lots of ample theoretical reasons to believe that antimatter also would fall down.

然而，有很多充足的理论理由相信反物质也会坠落。

1:53:40 So they did this fantastic measurement, and they first they put in hydrogen, and they calculated that if they did this, something like eighty percent of the hydrogen atoms would fall through the bottom of the bottle, and twenty percent would go through the top just because gravity is very weak and the atoms will escape wherever they do, but there will be a bias pulling hydrogen atoms down.

所以他们做了这个奇妙的测量，他们首先放入氢气，他们计算出，如果这样做，百分之八十的氢原子会从瓶子的底部掉下来，百分之二十的氢原子会从顶部掉下来，因为重力非常弱，原子会逃逸到任何地方，但会有一种偏向将氢原子拉下来。

So they did exactly the same thing, and what did they find?

所以他们做了完全相同的事情，他们发现了什么？

They find that antimatter falls down.

他们发现反物质会掉落。

Now, they do not have a good enough measurement at this time to say that the gravity that antimatter experiences is one hundred percent that of matter.

现在，他们目前还没有足够好的测量结果来证明反物质所受到的引力是物质所受引力的百分之一百。

1:54:24 What they have measured is that antimatter fell down with a seventy-five percent the strength of regular matter, but there were big uncertainties.

他们测量到，反物质的强度是常规物质的 75%，但存在很大的不确定性。

There was plus or minus point one three due to the experiment, which was good but imperfect, and plus or minus point one six due to their theoretical model.

正负一三是因为实验，虽然不错但不完美，正负一六是因为他们的理论模型。

So it’s like point seven five plus or minus something like point two nine.

所以这就像第七点五加上或减去第二点九之类的东西。

And that means there’s a good chance it’s between point five and one- …

这意味着很有可能介于第五点和第一点之间——……

which means it’s consistent with one.

这意味着它与一个一致。

So they are improving their measurements.

所以他们正在改进他们的测量方法。

Well, if I can, I would love to take a bit of a tangent on that topic ’cause I went down a rabbit hole watching some of your videos on antimatter.

好吧，如果可以的话，我很想在这个话题上稍微切题一下，因为我在看你的一些关于反物质的视频时陷入了困境。

1:55:02 And I mean, Fermilab was the hub for the production of antimatter for quite a while.

我的意思是，费米实验室在很长一段时间内都是反物质生产的中心。

It was.

是的。

I saw that NASA said that the global estimate for the current rate of production of antimatter is one nanogram per year.

我看到NASA说目前全球估计反物质的产生速度是每年一纳克。

1:55:18 Can you speak to how hard was it to make antimatter?

您能谈谈制造反物质有多困难吗？

And also, you did mention in a video that, you know, if matter and antimatter meet, they produce a lot of energy.

而且，您在视频中确实提到，如果物质和反物质相遇，它们会产生大量能量。

I think twenty grams of antimatter is equivalent to a one-megaton nuclear warhead in terms of explosive energy.

我认为二十克反物质的爆炸能量相当于百万吨级核弹头。

Yeah, so all of those questions together.

是的，所以所有这些问题都在一起。

So how hard is it to produce antimatter?

那么产生反物质有多难呢？

It’s freaking hard.

太难了。

1:55:52 Okay.

好的。

All right.

好的。

So here’s the deal.

所以这就是交易。

So at the time until two thousand and eleven, Fermilab was the most powerful antiproton production facility on the planet.

因此，直到 2011 年，费米实验室都是地球上最强大的反质子生产设施。

Every two point three seconds, we would smash ten to the thirteen protons into a target, and we would get out ten to the eighth antiprotons.

每隔两点三秒，我们就会将十到十三个质子撞击到一个目标上，然后我们就会得到十到第八个反质子。

So basically, in order to get a single antiproton, we needed to smash a hundred thousand protons into material.

所以基本上，为了获得一个反质子，我们需要将十万个质子粉碎成物质。

So every two point three seconds, we would get of order ten to the eighth antiprotons.

因此，每两点三秒，我们就会得到十到第八个反质子。

And what we would do is we would collect them over the course of twelve hours or so, and we would get, in the end, we would have to collect them and cool them down and so forth, of order ten to the twelfth antiprotons every twelve to twenty-four hours.

我们要做的是在十二个小时左右的时间内收集它们，最后我们必须收集它们并冷却它们等等，每十二到二十四小时收集十到第十二个反质子。

1:56:48 So ten to the twelfth sounds like a lot.

所以十到十二听起来很多。

It really does.

确实如此。

That is a trillion.

那是一万亿。

But you need to remember that a gram of antimatter is ten to the twenty-three antiprotons.

但你需要记住，一克反物质相当于十到二十三个反质子。

So that means over the course of a day, we were able to create something like one hundred billionth of a gram.

所以这意味着在一天的时间里，我们能够创造出大约千亿分之一克的东西。

And so if we did that for a year, then that would be about a nanogram.

因此，如果我们这样做一年，那么这将是大约一纳克。

So about a nanogram a year, give or take.

所以每年大约一纳克，给予或接受。

That’s a reasonable estimate.

这是一个合理的估计。

So a nanogram, one billionth of a gram, so that means at that rate, with that facility, it would take a billion years running with very little downtime to make a single gram of antimatter.

因此，一纳克，十亿分之一克，这意味着按照这个速度，使用该设施，需要运行十亿年并且几乎没有停机时间才能制造一克反物质。

If you combine one gram of antimatter and one gram of matter together, the energy release is equivalent to the combined Hiroshima and Nagasaki explosions.

如果将一克反物质和一克物质结合在一起，释放的能量相当于广岛和长崎爆炸的总和。

1:57:49 So that tells you if you wanted a megaton, you need about 25 times more.

这告诉您，如果您想要 1 兆吨，则需要大约 25 倍的重量。

So you would have to run for 25 billion years to get a megaton of explosive power.

因此，你必须运行 250 亿年才能获得百万吨级的爆炸力。

Let me lay it all out, because I think it’s pretty interesting actually.

让我把它全部列出来，因为我认为这实际上很有趣。

1:58:00 This is a NASA estimate of how much it costs to produce antimatter.

这是美国宇航局对生产反物质成本的估计。

So looking at all the, the, the costs of the accelerator, all, everything combined together, to do enough for a one-megaton antimatter bomb, if such a thing would be even possible, on the order of 25 grams, like we mentioned-

因此，看看加速器的所有、所有、所有成本加在一起，足以制造一枚百万吨级反物质炸弹，如果这样的事情可能的话，大约 25 克，就像我们提到的那样——

1:58:24 …

……

will cost about, based on the NASA estimate $1.5 quadrillion.

根据 NASA 的估计，其成本约为 1.5 千万亿美元。

By the way NASA wasn’t talking about a bomb.

顺便说一句，美国宇航局并不是在谈论炸弹。

It’s just me adding— NASA was talking about the estimate, the cost of 62 to 63 trillion dollars per gram of antihydrogen, actually is what they’re referring to.

我只是补充一下——NASA 正在谈论估计，每克反氢的成本为 62 至 63 万亿美元，实际上就是他们所指的。

So compared– I was looking at estimates, the current best estimate is how much it takes to produce a one-megaton nuclear warhead.

所以相比之下——我在看估计，目前最好的估计是生产一枚百万吨级核弹头需要多少钱。

Everything combined is about 10 to 50 million dollars in the United States.

在美国，所有费用加起来约为 10 至 5000 万美元。

So you’re talking about difference in terms of a weapon with equal power, 50 million dollars versus $1.5 quadrillion.

所以你说的是同等威力的武器之间的差异，5000 万美元与 15000 万美元。

To me, what’s interesting, weapons is just one indication of this.

对我来说，有趣的是，武器只是这一点的一个迹象。

One other possibility, and NASA also writes about this, is the use of antimatter in propulsion systems.

另一种可能性是在推进系统中使用反物质，美国宇航局也对此进行了阐述。

1:59:20 Just like you can use nuclear fission and maybe even nuclear fusion down the line.

就像你可以使用核裂变，甚至可以使用核聚变一样。

In propulsion systems, I saw that one gram can help get us to Alpha Centauri star system if we can get to 0.2 times the speed of light in 20 years.

在推进系统中，我发现如果我们能在 20 年内达到 0.2 倍光速，那么一克就可以帮助我们到达半人马座阿尔法星系统。

Meaning it would take us 20 years to get to Alpha Centauri.

这意味着我们需要 20 年才能到达半人马座阿尔法星。

Is any of this a possible future, the use of antimatter for generation of energy?

使用反物质产生能量，这是否是一个可能的未来？

Because we should mention that it’s extremely compact.

因为我们应该提到它非常紧凑。

It has the obvious downsides that it’s extremely costly to produce.

它有一个明显的缺点，那就是生产成本极高。

We don’t know how to do that kind of scale.

我们不知道如何做到这种规模。

The upside is it’s compact.

优点是它很紧凑。

It’s very powerful.

它非常强大。

2:00:01 So the short answer is it is not a physics problem, it’s an engineering problem.

所以简短的回答是这不是一个物理问题，而是一个工程问题。

So I have people for that.

所以我有人负责这件事。

Okay.

好的。

2:00:09 Well, yeah.

嗯，是的。

Okay.

好的。

But no, no.

但不，不。

The truth is that antimatter, if you are able to assemble it and store it, sure, it would be able to take that antimatter, heat up matter, and shoot it out the back of a rocket, and it would, you know, do what rockets do, and it would make us go quick, and that would be fine.

事实是，反物质，如果你能够组装它并储存它，当然，它能够吸收反物质，加热物质，然后将其从火箭的后部射出，你知道，它会做火箭所做的事情，它会让我们走得更快，那很好。

And we should mention the thing that you just mentioned is, is correct.

我们应该指出，您刚才提到的事情是正确的。

2:00:31 One of the hugest challenges is the containment-

最大的挑战之一是遏制——

Oh, 100%, yeah.

哦，100%，是的。

…

……

2:00:38 because antimatter, when it comes in contact with matter- Is a problem.

因为反物质，当它与物质接触时——就是一个问题。

Right.

正确的。

2:00:43 So if you were unable to contain your trip to Alpha Centauri for even a millionth of a second, boom, that would not be good.

因此，如果你无法控制前往半人马座阿尔法星的旅程，哪怕是百万分之一秒，那就糟糕了。

You know, it reminds me of the Star Trek where Scotty’s saying, “Captain, you know, the antimatter pods are about– look, we’re losing containment.

你知道，这让我想起了《星际迷航》中斯科蒂说的：“船长，你知道，反物质舱即将——看，我们正在失去收容。

It’s gonna blow.” And that’s exactly what would happen.

会爆炸的。”这正是将会发生的事情。

So the short answer is yes, antimatter as, in principle, we could make and use as a source of energy.

所以简短的答案是肯定的，原则上我们可以制造和使用反物质作为能源。

But there are probably far less expensive sources of energy.

但可能还有更便宜的能源。

You know, it depends on what you need to do.

你知道，这取决于你需要做什么。

The Voyager probes are still chugging along with plutonium.

航行者号探测器仍然带着钚嘎嘎作响。

Now, they’re running out of energy at this point, but we could, you know, presumably do a somewhat better job if we needed to.

现在，他们的能量已经耗尽，但如果需要的话，我们可以做得更好。

2:01:34 So I like the idea of antimatter, you know, but the reality is the danger, not the obvious danger of weapons, but the danger of if you wanted to be in a ship run by antimatter, if it ever got loose, well, you would never know it.

所以我喜欢反物质的想法，你知道，但现实是危险，不是武器的明显危险，而是如果你想坐在一艘由反物质驱动的船上，如果它松动，那么你永远不会知道它的危险。

That would be that.

就是这样。

The reason I find this kind of inspiring is antimatter is in the space of physics that has a lot of mysteries.

我发现反物质这种鼓舞人心的原因是在有很多奥秘的物理空间中。

2:01:51 There’s a lot of exploration to be done.

还有很多探索要做。

And so this kind of connection to energy means that if we have a bunch of breakthroughs on the antimatter side, that might lead to a better propulsion system, better energy generation systems.

因此，这种与能源的联系意味着，如果我们在反物质方面取得一系列突破，可能会带来更好的推进系统、更好的能源产生系统。

In principle.

原则。

There’s some combination of engineering here, but there’s some combination of understanding the fundamental physics.

这里有一些工程学的结合，但也有一些对基础物理理解的结合。

I mean, we know how to do this.

我的意思是，我们知道如何做到这一点。

2:02:22 You know, we know you take energy, you make antimatter.

你知道，我们知道你需要能量，你会产生反物质。

You have to contain it.

你必须遏制它。

You have to store it.

你必须储存它。

You have to do all the hard things.

你必须做所有困难的事情。

But I would be shocked if there was some, like, new addition to the- …

但如果有一些，比如，新的补充，我会感到震惊——……

theory that made antimatter production easier.

使反物质生产变得更容易的理论。

Interesting.

有趣的。

2:02:42 So we know how to produce antimatter with accelerators.

所以我们知道如何用加速器产生反物质。

You’re saying there’s not breakthroughs in physics that could lead to different mechanisms for the generation of antimatter?

你是说物理学上没有突破可以导致反物质产生的不同机制？

You have to concentrate energy.

你必须集中精力。

2:02:54 That’s it.

就是这样。

If there’s another way to concentrate energy, that would work too.

如果有其他方法可以集中精力，那也是可行的。

And our best knowledge of how to concentrate energy is the accelerator.

我们对如何集中精力最了解的是加速器。

And remember, we’re talking concentrating it into volumes the size of a proton.

请记住，我们正在谈论将其集中到质子大小的体积中。

2:03:03 I mean, if you concentrate it to the size of your thumb, well, then, you know, it’s really the density that matters, the local density.

我的意思是，如果你把它集中到拇指大小，那么，你知道，真正重要的是密度，即局部密度。

And so when you smash two protons together, all of that’s occurring in a tiny, tiny volume, so it’s the local density of energy that matters.

因此，当你将两个质子粉碎在一起时，所有这些都发生在一个非常小的体积中，所以重要的是局部能量密度。

If you had a lot of energy in a thimble or something- …

如果你的顶针或其他东西有很多能量——……

It’s probably not dense enough.

可能不够密集。

You know- …

你知道——……

it really has to be in close proximity for that to happen, and then when it does, it’s okay.

它确实必须非常接近才能发生，然后当它发生时，就没关系了。

So if there’s another way, we know how to do it, to make that density thing with accelerators.

因此，如果有另一种方法，我们知道如何去做，用加速器来实现密度。

If someone has a bright idea on how to make highly dense energy, then yeah, making antimatter is a piece of cake.

如果有人对如何制造高密度能量有一个好主意，那么制造反物质就是小菜一碟。

But that’s the crux-

但这才是症结所在——

2:03:57 …

……

concentrated energy.

集中能量。

Yeah, and how to do so in a cost-efficient manner, not trillions of dollars.

是的，以及如何以具有成本效益的方式做到这一点，而不是数万亿美元。

Well, yeah.

嗯，是的。

So one of the big mysteries with antimatter is the bigger why.

因此，反物质的最大谜团之一就是更大的原因。

2:04:05 Where is the antimatter that should kind of be there if the whole idea is that anytime you generate matter, you generate the same amount of antimatter, and yet when we look out into the observable universe, it seems like there’s not antimatter for the most part there.

如果整个想法是，无论何时产生物质，都会产生相同数量的反物质，但当我们观察可观测的宇宙时，似乎那里大部分不存在反物质，那么反物质应该在哪里。

Correct.

正确的。

So what do we understand about this mystery?

那么对于这个谜团我们又了解什么呢？

2:04:27 What are the possible explanations as to why?

其原因可能有哪些解释？

So there’s this thing called baryogenesis and, as you say, so reiterating a little bit what you just said, these are both Einstein things.

所以有一种叫做重子发生的东西，正如你所说，重申一下你刚才所说的，这些都是爱因斯坦的东西。

2:04:32 Einstein says that when you take energy, you make matter and antimatter in equal quantities, and Einstein says after the Big Bang, there was a lot of energy in the universe, which should have made matter and antimatter.

爱因斯坦说，当你获取能量时，你会产生等量的物质和反物质，爱因斯坦说，大爆炸之后，宇宙中存在大量能量，这些能量应该会产生物质和反物质。

2:04:54 We only see matter.

我们只看到物质。

Where’d the antimatter go?

反物质去哪儿了？

And the answer is, we don’t know.

答案是，我们不知道。

However, there are some ideas, and there’s a lot of thinking on it, and in fact, for me, it’s doing an experiment right now with neutrinos, trying to better understand what it was that made the matter and antimatter not be the same.

然而，有一些想法，并且有很多思考，事实上，对我来说，它现在正在用中微子进行实验，试图更好地理解是什么使物质和反物质不同。

Now, we do have a measurement of how much different it should be, and it’s kind of neat.

现在，我们确实测量了它应该有多大的差异，而且它很简洁。

We can do this by counting the number of protons in the universe, just looking at galaxies and so forth, and then we can look at the cosmic microwave background, which is sort of the aftermath of the Big Bang, and we can count the number of photons from the cosmic microwave background.

我们可以通过计算宇宙中的质子数量来做到这一点，只需观察星系等，然后我们可以观察宇宙微波背景，这是大爆炸的后果，我们可以计算来自宇宙微波背景的光子数量。

2:05:42 And with a little bit of math, what we can do is we can then say that somehow in the early universe, something made a very, very tiny asymmetry, so that for every billion, billion with a B, antimatter particles that existed in the universe, there were a billion and one matter particles.

通过一点数学，我们可以说，在早期宇宙中，某种东西产生了非常非常微小的不对称性，因此，对于宇宙中存在的每十亿个带有 B 的反物质粒子，就有十亿零一个物质粒子。

The billions canceled, annihilated, destroyed each other, and that extra one that’s left over is us.

数十亿人被取消、消灭、互相摧毁，剩下的就是我们。

2:06:17 And so what physics mechanism made that ever so slight asymmetry is not understood.

因此，尚不清楚是什么物理机制造成了如此轻微的不对称。

There are some thoughts.

有一些想法。

One thought is that, well, it’s just how it was.

一种想法是，好吧，事情就是这样。

When the universe was formed, there was an asymmetry.

当宇宙形成时，就存在不对称性。

It was not made by matter and antimatter.

它不是由物质和反物质组成的。

Another possibility is there are various numbers of theories all under the word baryogenesis, baryo coming from the word baryon, which basically means protons, and genesis meaning the creation of, and we’d say that simply because the protons are the heaviest particles.

另一种可能性是，在重子发生这个词下有各种各样的理论，重子来自重子这个词，它基本上意味着质子，而起源意味着创造，我们这么说只是因为质子是最重的粒子。

And so baryogenesis is just the creation of matter.

所以重子发生就是物质的创造。

And there are just a number of theories in quantum mechanics that say that matter and antimatter can oscillate back and forth into one another, and there is a slight, slight asymmetry in how that happens.

量子力学中只有一些理论认为物质和反物质可以相互振荡，而且这种振荡的发生方式存在轻微的不对称性。

2:07:17 And we know that this is true to a degree.

我们知道这在某种程度上是正确的。

We’ve measured it in the 1960s with a different form of matter.

我们在 20 世纪 60 年代用不同形式的物质测量了它。

I mean you know, not protons, but a type of ephemeral matter that only exists in particle accelerators.

我的意思是你知道，不是质子，而是一种仅存在于粒子加速器中的短暂物质。

And so we know that there is a slight difference between matter and antimatter, but it’s not enough.

所以我们知道物质和反物质之间存在细微的差别，但这还不够。

It doesn’t explain that.

它没有解释这一点。

We’re not sure.

我们不确定。

So at Fermilab, we have this idea which kind of turns things on its head, and it’s not baryogenesis, it’s leptogenesis.

所以在费米实验室，我们有一个颠覆性的想法，它不是重子发生，而是轻子发生。

So leptons are the electrons.

所以轻子就是电子。

And because Fermilab is currently the world’s most powerful neutrino accelerator, and neutrinos are leptons, there is this idea.

而且因为费米实验室是目前世界上最强大的中微子加速器，而中微子是轻子，所以就有了这个想法。

Now, leptogenesis is incredibly complicated, but the idea is that it is possible.

现在，轻体发生非常复杂，但我们的想法是它是可能的。

We know that neutrinos actually change their identity.

我们知道中微子实际上改变了它们的身份。

2:08:15 There are three different types of neutrinos like I don’t know, cats and jaguars and tigers, and if you have a beam of just cats, if you go along a little while, you find there’s cats and jaguars and then tigers, and then they’ll be back to all cats again.

中微子分为三种不同类型，我不知道，猫、美洲虎和老虎，如果你有一束只有猫的中微子，如果你走一会儿，你会发现有猫、美洲虎，然后是老虎，然后它们会再次回到所有的猫。

And so this oscillation thing is called neutrino oscillation.

所以这种振荡现象称为中微子振荡。

We’ve known it’s been true since 1998, and what we are studying is we’re going to make a beam of neutrinos and another beam of antimatter neutrinos, and we’re going to study the oscillation behavior of the two of them.

我们从 1998 年就知道这是真的，我们正在研究的是，我们将制造一束中微子和另一束反物质中微子，我们将研究它们两者的振荡行为。

And it is possible, it is unlikely, but it is possible that the two of them will oscillate at slightly different rates.

有可能，也不太可能，但两者有可能以略有不同的速率振荡。

2:08:55 And if the neutrinos oscillate at slightly different rates, then that, along with several other highly improbable things, can tie together and might explain why there is more matter in the universe.

如果中微子以稍微不同的速率振荡，那么它与其他几种极不可能的事物一起可以结合在一起，并可能解释为什么宇宙中有更多的物质。

So if I was gonna bet the farm, I’ll bet that they oscillate at the same rate, but I don’t know, and you don’t know till you do the measurements, so that’s what we’re doing.

因此，如果我要赌农场，我会赌它们以相同的速率振荡，但我不知道，而且在进行测量之前你也不知道，所以这就是我们正在做的事情。

There are some other experiments trying to measure it right now, so there’s a big race between the Fermilab group and another group in Japan to see who gets there first and make this measurement, and we will find out.

目前还有一些其他实验试图测量它，因此费米实验室小组和日本的另一个小组之间正在进行一场激烈的竞赛，看看谁先到达那里并进行测量，我们会找到答案。

If it turns out, though, that there is a difference in this oscillation rate between matter and antimatter, it will be a huge clue in this very, very difficult puzzle.

不过，如果事实证明物质和反物质之间的振荡率存在差异，那么这将成为这个非常非常困难的谜题的巨大线索。

2:09:43 I wish I could tell you I knew what the answer is, but literally nobody knows.

我希望我能告诉你我知道答案是什么，但实际上没有人知道。

I mean, and that’s the thing of being a research scientist like me is if you’re not confused- …

我的意思是，如果你不感到困惑的话，这就是作为一名像我这样的研究科学家的事情——……

you’re not doing your job.

你没有做好你的工作。

So there is this desperate or not desperate, exciting search for this tiny asymmetry.

因此，人们对这种微小的不对称性进行了绝望或不绝望的、令人兴奋的探索。

Yes.

是的。

It’s so, so crazy to think that everything we see around us is a result of this tiny asymmetry, that there was this gigantic annihilation of matter and antimatter in the early-

认为我们周围看到的一切都是这种微小的不对称性的结果，以及在早期发生了物质和反物质的巨大湮灭，真是太疯狂了——

Yes

是的

…

……

2:10:14 universe, and this is just some little accident.

宇宙，这只是一些小意外。

But yeah.

但是是的。

Yeah, that’s crazy.

是的，那太疯狂了。

It’s a happy accident.

这是一次幸福的意外。

That is, I mean, it’s totally crazy.

我的意思是，这太疯狂了。

This is one of the areas of physics where there’s a lot of mystery.

这是充满神秘色彩的物理学领域之一。

2:10:25 Okay.

好的。

So can we pull at that thread a little further?

那么我们可以把这条线索拉得更远一点吗？

Let’s talk about our intuition of what is dark energy as it connects to empty space and everything we’ve been talking about.

让我们谈谈我们对暗能量的直觉，因为它与真空以及我们一直在谈论的一切有关。

What’s—what’s the cleanest definition of dark energy?

暗能量最明确的定义是什么？

So dark energy is either energy of space or energy in space.

所以暗能量要么是空间能量，要么是空间能量。

2:10:46 The most common statement is the energy of space, and it is essentially a repulsive form of gravity.

最常见的说法是空间能量，它本质上是引力的一种排斥形式。

And we believe this is real, and the reason we believe this is real is from observation.

我们相信这是真实的，我们相信这是真实的原因是来自观察。

This is one of those things where we talked about a while ago where I said that, you know, you can think about things up this theoretical stuff and try to come up with a measurement, or you can make measurements and see where they disagree with predictions and lead that in a direction.

这是我们不久前讨论过的事情之一，我说过，你可以思考这些理论问题，并尝试提出一个测量方法，或者你可以进行测量，看看它们与预测不一致的地方，并引导它朝一个方向发展。

So back in the late 1990s, some astronomers were looking at the expansion rate of the universe.

早在 20 世纪 90 年代末，一些天文学家就开始研究宇宙的膨胀率。

2:11:33 So the Big Bang occurred, the universe is expanding, the universe is full of matter, matter attracts, so the gravity due to the matter of the universe should slow the expansion of the universe.

所以大爆炸发生了，宇宙在膨胀，宇宙充满了物质，物质相互吸引，所以宇宙物质产生的引力应该会减缓宇宙的膨胀。

And the only question was how much?

唯一的问题是多少钱？

There were three possibilities.

有三种可能性。

The possibilities were there was so much gravitational force that the expansion of the universe would slow, stop, and be pulled back together in a big crunch.

有可能存在如此大的引力，以至于宇宙的膨胀会减慢、停止，并在一场大挤压中被拉回到一起。

Number two was that the universe would continue expanding, slowing down, but never really stopping.

第二，宇宙会继续膨胀、减速，但永远不会真正停止。

And then the third possibility was the exact critical case, where expansion would slow forever and approach zero only at infinity, never quite stopping or reversing.

第三种可能性是确切的临界情况，即膨胀将永远减慢，只有在无穷远时才接近零，永远不会完全停止或逆转。

So those were the possibilities, door number one, two, or three.

这些就是可能性，一号门、二号门或三号门。

2:12:21 So they did the measurement, and what did they found?

所以他们进行了测量，他们发现了什么？

It was door number four.

这是四号门。

The universe was not only expanding, but the expansion was speeding up, and the only way that could happen, given that gravity slows it down, is there was a repulsive force, and the name we give to that repulsive force is dark energy.

宇宙不仅在膨胀，而且还在加速膨胀，考虑到引力会减慢宇宙的速度，唯一可能发生的方式就是存在排斥力，而我们给这种排斥力起的名字就是暗能量。

This is something that Einstein postulated early on in his development of general relativity, but then because at the time, he knew that his theory predicted that the universe would collapse but he believed the universe was eternal and not unchanging, and so he needed something to counterbalance that collapse, and so he invented dark energy.

这是爱因斯坦在广义相对论发展的早期就提出的假设，但因为当时他知道他的理论预测宇宙会崩溃，但他相信宇宙是永恒的而不是一成不变的，所以他需要一些东西来平衡这种崩溃，所以他发明了暗能量。

He didn’t call it that.

他没有这么称呼它。

2:13:08 Called it the cosmological constant.

称之为宇宙常数。

But then a few years later, Edwin Hubble discovered that the universe was indeed expanding, and so since the universe was no longer static, Einstein said, “No need for cosmological constant,” took it back out.

但几年后，埃德温·哈勃发现宇宙确实在膨胀，所以既然宇宙不再是静态的，爱因斯坦说“不需要宇宙学常数”，就把它拿了回来。

Thought it was a dumb idea that he put it in, and was embarrassed.

他认为自己提出这个想法是个愚蠢的主意，并感到尴尬。

However, in 1998 it became clear that his original idea that there should be some sort of repulsive form of gravity was real, and it’s put back in the theory.

然而，在 1998 年，人们发现他最初的想法——应该存在某种排斥性的引力形式——是真实的，并且它被重新纳入了理论中。

2:13:38 And so that’s what it is.

就是这样。

We are pretty confident at this point that the expansion of the universe is speeding up, and the thing driving it is dark energy.

目前我们非常有信心宇宙正在加速膨胀，而推动宇宙膨胀的是暗能量。

Now, what is dark energy?

现在，什么是暗能量？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

As I said, the most common thought is that it is the energy of space itself, but it is at least conceivable that there is a field in space where space exists- …

正如我所说，最常见的想法是，它是空间本身的能量，但至少可以想象，空间中存在着一个空间存在的场——……

and that field is pushing space apart.

这个场正在将空间推开。

That’s another conceivability that I’m not sure that we have the instrumentation to distinguish, but that’s not what normally people think.

这是另一种可能性，我不确定我们是否有仪器可以区分，但这不是通常人们的想法。

People think it is literally a property of space.

人们认为它实际上是空间的属性。

But, but there is the what—what you call the worst prediction in physics, which is a nice—

但是，但是有一个什么——你称之为物理学中最糟糕的预测，这是一个很好的——

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

2:14:26 That’s another one.

那是另一件事。

…

……

2:14:27 a nice little insight about the complicated nature of dark energy.

关于暗能量复杂本质的一个很好的见解。

So the observations, as you describe, say that empty space has a tiny energy density that accelerates expansion of the universe.

因此，正如您所描述的，观测表明真空具有微小的能量密度，可以加速宇宙的膨胀。

But quantum field theory’s prediction for what vacuum energy should be when coupled with gravity is much larger.

但量子场论对真空能量与重力耦合时的预测要大得多。

So this is what makes for the quote—you have a video on this—worst prediction in physics.

这就是这句话的由来——你有一个关于这个的视频——物理学中最糟糕的预测。

Yes.

是的。

Can you, can you explain this crisis?

你能解释一下这场危机吗？

Well, there’s a measurement, and you can measure how fast the universe is expanding, and from that you get a measurement of dark energy.

嗯，有一个测量，你可以测量宇宙膨胀的速度，然后你可以测量暗能量。

2:15:00 However, if you then say, well, suppose the dark energy is due to fields in space.

然而，如果你接着说，好吧，假设暗能量是由太空中的场引起的。

So that’s quantum field theory.

这就是量子场论。

Hey, I know a lot about quantum field theory.

嘿，我对量子场论了解很多。

2:15:21 And so we can take the quantum field theory, and we can calculate what the density of energy is due to quantum field theory.

所以我们可以采用量子场论，我们可以计算出量子场论的能量密度。

And basically what you do is you take within a volume all of the wavelengths, the longer wavelengths, the shorter wavelengths, the shorter and shorter, and you can add them all up.

基本上你所做的就是在一个体积内获取所有波长，较长的波长，较短的波长，越来越短的波长，然后你可以将它们全部加起来。

And each wavelength adds a certain amount of energy, and if you add that all up, then you get a number, and that number is the rather embarrassing 10 to the 120 power times—that’s a one with 120 zeros after it—bigger than the measurement of dark energy.

每个波长都会增加一定量的能量，如果把它们全部加起来，就会得到一个数字，这个数字是相当令人尴尬的 10 的 120 次方倍数（即后面有 120 个零的 1），比暗能量的测量值还要大。

So you go, “Yuck, that is not fun at all.”

所以你会说，“哎呀，那一点也不好玩。”

2:16:13 And that is because the equation comes to the highest energy or the smallest wavelength particle that you can imagine to the fourth power, since anything to the fourth power is a big deal.

这是因为这个方程涉及到你可以想象的最高能量或最小波长粒子的四次方，因为任何四次方都是一件大事。

So that’s where you get that awful number.

所以这就是你得到那个可怕数字的地方。

Now, if it turns out that there is some new physics that’s just about at the energy scale we can measure using our biggest particle accelerators, remember I told you that that was a factor, the maximum energy scale, Planck scale, is 10 to the 15 times bigger than what we can measure now.

现在，如果事实证明有一些新的物理现象大约在我们可以使用我们最大的粒子加速器测量的能量尺度上，请记住我告诉过你这是一个因素，最大能量尺度，普朗克尺度，比我们现在可以测量的大10到15倍。

So let’s say that we don’t have to calculate up to the Planck scale because something happens, something changes at the energy that we know right now.

因此，假设我们不必计算到普朗克尺度，因为某些事情发生了，某些事情在我们现在知道的能量上发生了变化。

2:17:00 Well, then that means we don’t have to integrate to Planck scale, we integrate to 10 to the 15th less of the Planck scale, and this thing is to the fourth power, so 10 to the 15th to the fourth power is 60.

嗯，那么这意味着我们不必积分到普朗克尺度，我们积分到普朗克尺度的10的15次方，这个东西是4次方，所以10的15次方是60。

So now, even if we say, you know, Don, he’s brilliant, he’s gonna find something at the LHC tomorrow that’s gonna solve all this problem, now we’ve solved it, it’s much better.

所以现在，即使我们说，你知道，唐，他很聪明，他明天会在大型强子对撞机上找到可以解决所有这些问题的东西，现在我们已经解决了它，那就好多了。

It’s only different by 10 to the 60 power, which is still pretty bleeding big.

它只相差 10 的 60 次方，这仍然是相当大的。

So the short answer is there is very clearly something going on, something wrong, very badly wrong in the quantum field theory.

所以简短的回答是，量子场论中显然正在发生一些事情，一些错误，非常严重的错误。

You know, we have to have, maybe there’s another field that balances out the energy, that cancels it down.

你知道，我们必须有，也许还有另一个场可以平衡能量，将其抵消。

And even that, you know, that’s not so outrageous.

即便如此，你知道，这也不是那么离谱。

2:17:49 You know, you could imagine that there’s another, you know, like we have matter and antimatter, they balance pretty well.

你知道，你可以想象还有另一种，你知道，就像我们有物质和反物质一样，它们平衡得很好。

Okay, maybe there’s something going on, you could cancel that out, that’d be perfect.

好吧，也许有什么事情发生了，你可以取消它，那就完美了。

But canceling something to zero is easy ’cause, you know, plus one and minus one, zero.

但是将某些东西取消为零很容易，因为，你知道，加一和减一就是零。

Plus two, minus two, zero.

加二，减二，零。

But we still have dark energy.

但我们仍然有暗能量。

Dark energy is a little bit, so if it cancels, it doesn’t cancel exactly ’cause it left over that little bit of dark energy.

暗能量是一点点，所以如果它抵消了，它并没有完全抵消，因为它留下了那一点点暗能量。

So that is its own curiosity.

所以这就是它自己的好奇心。

Perfect cancellation, pretty easy.

完美取消，非常简单。

Theorists do that, you know, eight times before breakfast.

你知道，理论家在早餐前这样做了八次。

Imperfect cancellation, much harder.

不完美的取消，更加困难。

Just to elaborate that a little bit, what, what do you think solving, in quotes, solving dark energy would look like?

只是为了详细说明一下，你认为解决暗能量问题会是什么样子？

Well, what you would do is you would hypothesize that there existed some other field that had the reverse effect of existing quantum fields.

那么，你要做的就是假设存在一些其他场，它们具有与现有量子场相反的效果。

But not to zero.

但不是归零。

But not to zero.

但不是归零。

2:18:45 So but if you had it to go to zero, you know, sure, maybe there’s a field that exists at really high energies that we haven’t seen yet.

所以，如果你让它变为零，你知道，当然，也许存在一个我们还没有见过的能量非常高的场。

I don’t know, but it canceled things out, and we’re cool.

我不知道，但它消除了一些事情，我们很酷。

How would we then demonstrate the existence of that field?

那么我们如何证明该场的存在呢？

Well, that would depend on the, the prediction.

嗯，这取决于预测。

How do you even come up with a new field?

你是如何想出一个新领域的？

Like all theorists do.

就像所有理论家所做的那样。

2:19:05 Well, let’s add something to my equation and see what happens.

好吧，让我们在方程中添加一些内容，看看会发生什么。

I mean, and that’s okay.

我的意思是，那没关系。

…

……

I’m being glib about that, but that is precisely what you do.

我对此很狡猾，但这正是你所做的。

You say, what change?

你说，改变什么？

We have this thing that works quite beautifully except it fails here.

我们的这个东西工作得非常漂亮，只是在这里失败了。

What is the addition that we need to make that changes very little in the realm that we measured and yet fixes this hard thing?

我们需要添加什么来使我们测量的领域变化很小，但又解决了这个困难的问题？

And so you literally just go, da, da, da, okay, what do I need?

所以你就直接说，哒，哒，哒，好吧，我需要什么？

Plus six or something.

加六个什么的。

And as long as it makes no changes where it would hurt our measurements and fixes the big thing, then that is at least a candidate theory.

只要它不做出任何会损害我们测量的改变并修复重大问题，那么这至少是一个候选理论。

Now, that doesn’t mean it’s right, but it at least gives you an understanding of what the right answer should look like.

现在，这并不意味着它是正确的，但它至少让您了解正确的答案应该是什么样子。

2:19:58 And so that’s the first step, is what should the real answer look like or what is a possible real answer?

所以这是第一步，真正的答案应该是什么样子或者可能的真实答案是什么？

And then once you kind of know that, then other people can look and say, “Well, let me think about a theory that kind of has the required properties to do what we need it to do.” So it’s a multi-step process, but the first step is how do we tame this problem without coming up with really terrible predictions that we’ve already ruled out?

一旦你知道了这一点，其他人就可以说：“好吧，让我考虑一个理论，它具有完成我们需要它做的事情所需的属性。”所以这是一个多步骤的过程，但第一步是我们如何解决这个问题，而不提出我们已经排除的非常糟糕的预测？

And so that’s what you do.

这就是你所做的。

And you know, that is literally a sensible, viable, theoretical thing, because you have to explore cool ideas.

你知道，这实际上是一个明智的、可行的、理论性的事情，因为你必须探索很酷的想法。

I mean, one of the reasons dark energy is super interesting is it kind of gives us a mechanism by which we can talk about the deep future of the universe.

我的意思是，暗能量超级有趣的原因之一是它为我们提供了一种机制，通过它我们可以谈论宇宙的深层未来。

2:20:42 I mean, it’s making— We have observations about the expansion of the universe, but it’s also giving us the mechanism of that, right?

我的意思是，它正在让我们观察到宇宙的膨胀，但它也为我们提供了其机制，对吗？

So we can talk about any weirdness, any good model we have that, that captures some of the weirdness of dark energy might give us insights about how this thing ends, how the universe- …

所以我们可以谈论任何奇怪的现象，我们拥有的任何好的模型，捕捉到暗能量的一些奇怪现象，可能会让我们深入了解这件事如何结束，宇宙如何——……

about the deep future of the universe, right?

关于宇宙的深远未来，对吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

2:21:15 As it stands right now, if dark energy is real, and who knows, you know, if it’s real exactly as we’ve measured it, then as the universe gets bigger and bigger, dark energy becomes a bigger and bigger component of the- …

就目前而言，如果暗能量是真实的，谁知道呢，你知道，如果它真的像我们测量的那样，那么随着宇宙变得越来越大，暗能量将成为越来越大的组成部分……

energy balance of the universe, and it takes over, and it drives the continued accelerated expansion of the universe.

宇宙的能量平衡，它接管了，并驱动宇宙继续加速膨胀。

And if dark energy gets lower, you know, for some reason that we don’t understand, maybe it changes over time, gets smaller.

如果暗能量变低，你知道，出于某种我们不明白的原因，它可能会随着时间的推移而变化，变小。

That could change things.

这可能会改变事情。

If it gets bigger, it could change things-

如果它变得更大，它可能会改变事情 -

That is one of the big open questions, whether it’s constant over time or not.

这是一个悬而未决的大问题之一，无论它是否随着时间的推移而保持不变。

Right.

正确的。

2:21:53 And there has been a recent measurement that suggests that dark energy is getting smaller.

最近的一项测量表明暗能量正在变得越来越小。

However, that is a new measurement, not confirmed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

然而，这是一个新的测量结果，尚未得到证实，等等，等等，等等。

Nobody should believe it, but it’s a hint that maybe it’s changing, which is kind of cool in itself because the current bias until recently is that dark energy is constant.

没有人应该相信它，但这暗示着它可能正在改变，这本身就很酷，因为直到最近，当前的偏见还认为暗能量是恒定的。

Now, I wanna be super careful because it’s misleading.

现在，我想非常小心，因为它具有误导性。

People say dark energy is constant.

人们说暗能量是恒定的。

Dark energy is a density.

暗能量是一种密度。

Now, that— think about that.

现在，想一想。

You have a certain density, let’s start with that.

你有一定的密度，让我们从这个开始吧。

Then the universe expands.

然后宇宙膨胀。

Yep.

是的。

So energy is volume times density.

所以能量是体积乘以密度。

2:22:32 If the universe gets bigger and the density is constant, that means dark energy is increasing.

如果宇宙变大并且密度恒定，则意味着暗能量正在增加。

It’s not just increasing as a fraction and overwhelming ordinary matter, but ordinary matter, as the universe expands, its density decreases because it’s constant and the volume gets bigger, the density drops.

它不仅仅是以分数的形式增加并压倒普通物质，而是普通物质，随着宇宙的膨胀，它的密度会降低，因为它是恒定的，体积变大，密度下降。

Dark energy, until recently, is thought to be constant density.

直到最近，暗能量还被认为是恒定密度的。

So that’s what’s implied when you say constant.

这就是当你说常数时所隐含的含义。

2:23:02 You say constant density, which means it’s actually increasing because space is increasing.

你说密度恒定，这意味着它实际上在增加，因为空间在增加。

The size of space-

空间大小——

Right.

对。

…

……

2:23:09 is increasing.

正在增加。

Interesting.

有趣的。

And so that’s a weirdness, and that then ties into the nature of space.

所以这是一种奇怪的现象，并且与空间的本质有关。

Why does that tie into the nature of space?

为什么这与空间的本质有关？

Well, because if dark energy is a field in space, if you increase the volume, you would think the energy density would drop.

嗯，因为如果暗能量是太空中的一个场，如果你增加体积，你会认为能量密度会下降。

But if space is increasing and space is quantized, and I don’t know if it is, then maybe what’s happening is space isn’t stretching, but like little space particles are appearing as the space, you know, there’s like bubbles of space appearing, and each bubble contains a certain amount of dark energy.

但如果空间在增加并且空间被量子化，我不知道是否如此，那么也许发生的事情是空间没有拉伸，而是像空间中出现的小空间粒子一样，你知道，就像空间气泡出现一样，每个气泡都包含一定量的暗能量。

And so therefore, that would give you a sense that dark energy is a property of space rather than a field in space.

因此，这会给你一种感觉，暗能量是空间的属性，而不是空间中的场。

But that’s all very hand-wavy guess-worky stuff.

但这都是非常手动的猜测工作。

So if you had to bet all your money, is dark energy like a real physical—what does that even mean?—thing that exists, versus is this just an, a renaming of the cosmological constant?

所以，如果你必须赌上你所有的钱，暗能量是否像一个真实的物理存在——这意味着什么？——存在的东西，而不是这只是宇宙常数的重命名？

Unfortunately, I think it’s both.

不幸的是，我认为两者都是。

2:24:13 I mean well, I mean- It is; it’s describing a reality, but it’s also maybe telling us something about space.

我的意思是，我的意思是——是的；它描述了一个现实，但它也可能告诉我们一些关于空间的事情。

Literally a property of space.

从字面上看是空间的属性。

Yeah.

是的。

2:24:25 It’s, I mean, that’s kind of what it looks like.

我的意思是，看起来就是这样。

Given that it seems to be constant density, that seems to me– Now, this is not something anybody should believe.

鉴于它似乎是恒定的密度，在我看来——现在，这不是任何人都应该相信的事情。

Please, nobody believe this.

拜托，没人相信这个。

But it seems to me that this is leaning towards the idea that, A, it’s a property of space, B, space is quantized, C, as space is expanding, little quanta of space are appearing, and D, each one of those quanta has a certain amount of energy associated with it, and that would kind of explain the constant density.

但在我看来，这倾向于这样的观点：A，它是空间的一种属性，B，空间是量子化的，C，随着空间的膨胀，空间的小量子正在出现，D，这些量子中的每一个都有一定量的与之相关的能量，这可以解释恒定的密度。

Now, please, that’s not– Anybody should– Nobody accepts that.

现在，拜托，这不是——任何人都应该——没有人接受这一点。

This is just nonsense.

这简直是​​无稽之谈。

But a lot of the stuff that you just said is experimentally, probably experimentally testable.

但是你刚才说的很多东西都是经过实验的，可能是可以通过实验测试的。

2:25:09 You can probably construct-

你也许可以构造-

Well

嗯

…

……

2:25:17 experimentally the bubbles of

实验中的气泡

Well, finding out the bubbles of space, but those quanta conceivably are Planck-size bubbles.

好吧，找出空间气泡，但这些量子可以想象是普朗克大小的气泡。

Yeah, the quanta.

是的，量子。

Well, they’d be quanta of space.

好吧，它们是空间的量子。

2:25:26 I mean, the idea is, you know, you look at a sand dune and it looks smooth and continuous, but you can see individual grains of sand, right?

我的意思是，这个想法是，你知道，你看一个沙丘，它看起来光滑且连续，但你可以看到单个沙粒，对吗？

And so what this is saying is as this dune expands, new grains of sand are appearing, and each one of them is a quantum of space.

这就是说，随着沙丘的扩大，新的沙粒不断出现，每一个沙粒都是一个空间子。

So what kind of experiments can we do in the coming decades or centuries to understand dark energy better?

那么在未来几十年或几个世纪里我们可以做什么样的实验来更好地了解暗能量呢？

I mean, people have been talking about quantum entanglement of gravity.

我的意思是，人们一直在谈论引力的量子纠缠。

2:25:51 In standard quantum mechanics, a particle can be in two places at the same time.

在标准量子力学中，一个粒子可以同时出现在两个地方。

All right?

好的？

So now you have two particles.

所以现在你有两个粒子。

So this particle can be in two places in the same time.

所以这个粒子可以同时出现在两个地方。

This particle be, be two places at the same time, and you put them near one another.

这个粒子同时存在两个地方，你把它们放在一起。

Well, if they’re close to each other, there’s a certain gravitational force.

好吧，如果它们彼此靠近，就会存在一定的引力。

If they’re far apart, there are certain…

如果它们相距很远，那么肯定有……

And if they, one is close and one is far, you have another one.

如果它们，一个很近，一个很远，你就会有另一个。

You can calculate the effects of gravity having to do with quantum entangled particles being in two places.

您可以计算与处于两个位置的量子纠缠粒子有关的重力效应。

2:26:26 And people are talking about doing this and trying to see if in doing such a measurement, they might be able to definitively determine whether gravity is a quantum phenomenon or a continuous phenomenon.

人们正在谈论这样做，并试图看看在进行这样的测量时，他们是否能够明确地确定引力是一种量子现象还是一种连续现象。

2:26:45 And that is potentially a measurement that could be done soon-ish because the technologies inherent in all of this recent work on quantum mechanics is allowing people to be able to make instrumentation that might be precise enough to do this measurement.

这可能是一种很快就能完成的测量，因为最近所有量子力学研究中固有的技术使人们能够制造足够精确的仪器来进行这种测量。

Now, this will not tell us what quantum gravity is.

现在，这并不能告诉我们什么是量子引力。

It will not tell us anything, but it will tell us that gravity is quantized.

它不会告诉我们任何事情，但它会告诉我们重力是量子化的。

And just knowing that, well, for one thing, it shuts out a whole realm of continuous gravity, and the theoretical community will then turn its attention, forget this stuff, and think over here.

只要知道，嗯，一方面，它排除了整个连续引力领域，然后理论界就会转移注意力，忘记这些东西，并在这里思考。

Now, that doesn’t tell you that space is quantized, but it tells you that gravity is quantized if it bears out.

现在，这并没有告诉你空间是量子化的，但它告诉你如果证实的话，引力是量子化的。

So and if gravity is quantized, then people will start thinking more about space being quantized.

因此，如果重力被量子化，那么人们将开始更多地考虑空间被量子化。

I have to ask, ’cause you mentioned dark matter is perhaps even more mysterious than dark energy.

我不得不问，因为你提到暗物质可能比暗能量更神秘。

Okay.

好的。

Can you build up the intuition why it’s more mysterious?

你能建立起为什么它更神秘的直觉吗？

2:27:48 What is dark matter?

什么是暗物质？

Oh gosh, what is dark matter?

天哪，暗物质是什么？

2:27:53 A, I don’t know.

答，我不知道。

B, it’s terribly fascinating.

B，这真是太令人着迷了。

2:27:59 All right?

好的？

So first thing, and the most important thing ’cause I’m an experimentalist, by God, the first thing is why do we believe there’s dark matter?

所以第一件事，也是最重要的事情，因为我是一名实验主义者，上帝啊，第一件事是为什么我们相信存在暗物质？

And the reason is that astronomical measurements do not agree with predictions by Newtonian or relativity theory.

原因是天文测量与牛顿或相对论的预测不符。

Galaxies spin too fast, clusters of galaxies move too quickly, and the distortion of very distant galaxies due to the gravitational field of nearer galaxies disagrees with the prediction from what we see from the observed matter.

星系旋转太快，星系团移动太快，并且由于较近星系的引力场导致的非常遥远的星系的扭曲与我们从观测物质中看到的预测不一致。

So there are three very distinct reasons why we are predicting that, that something is wrong in our understanding of either the laws of physics or the matter budget of the universe.

因此，我们预测，我们对物理定律或宇宙物质预算的理解存在问题，有三个非常明显的原因。

The easiest one to talk about is the spinning galaxies.

最容易谈论的是旋转星系。

2:28:51 Now, this is– what I’m saying is not unique to spinning galaxies, just easiest to talk about.

现在，我所说的并不是旋转星系所独有的，只是最容易谈论的。

So galaxies are observed to spin more quickly than they should if we add up the gravity we see.

因此，如果我们把我们看到的重力加起来，我们就会发现星系的旋转速度比应有的要快。

By all rights, galaxies spinning that fast should blow themselves apart, and they don’t.

按理说，旋转得那么快的星系应该会自行爆炸，但事实并非如此。

So what can be the answer?

那么答案是什么呢？

Well, you have the force required for a star to orbit to move in a circle, and you have the force due to gravity, and they’re connected by an equal sign, and the prediction is wrong.

好吧，你有恒星绕轨道运行所需的力，还有重力产生的力，它们通过等号连接起来，而预测是错误的。

So either the force due to gravity is wrong, the force needed to move in a circle is wrong, or the equal sign is wrong.

因此，要么是重力产生的力是错误的，要么是圆周运动所需的力是错误的，要么是等号是错误的。

I mean, this is really simple.

我的意思是，这真的很简单。

One of those things is wrong.

其中一件事是错误的。

2:29:38 So one possibility is simply that Newton’s law of gravity, mass times the mass over R squared times a constant, that’s just wrong.

所以一种可能性就是牛顿万有引力定律，质量乘以质量除以 R 平方乘以常数，这是错误的。

Another possibility is Newton’s F equals ma that we are taught in introductory physics is wrong.

另一种可能性是，我们在物理学入门课程中所学到的牛顿的 F 等于 ma 是错误的。

Both of those are eminently possible.

这两种情况都非常有可能。

Over here, maybe we don’t understand gravity, or maybe there’s more mass than we can see.

在这里，也许我们不了解重力，或者质量可能比我们看到的要多。

So these, you know, I mean, it’s nice that you can look at this really simply and come up with a list, you know, a cookbook of things we can test.

所以，你知道，我的意思是，很高兴你能非常简单地看待这个问题，并列出一个清单，你知道，一本我们可以测试的东西的食谱。

And so we’ve done that.

我们就这么做了。

We’ve gone and said, “What are the possibilities?” Well, the most obvious possibility is that there is more mass than we can see.

我们过去问：“有什么可能性？”嗯，最明显的可能性是质量比我们看到的要大。

There’s black holes, there’s hydrogen gas that we can’t see, whatever.

有黑洞，有我们看不到的氢气，等等。

There’s something out there.

那里有东西。

2:30:29 So that was the first thing.

这是第一件事。

So you go and you look, and there’s no hydrogen gas because we can see that with radio waves.

所以你去看看，没有氢气，因为我们可以用无线电波看到它。

That’s not it.

不是这个。

In the ’90s, we went looking for black holes, rogue planets, things like that.

在 90 年代，我们寻找黑洞、流氓行星之类的东西。

Those exist, but not enough of them.

这些是存在的，但还不够。

2:30:43 That’s not it.

不是这个。

And so now we’re left with there’s some sort of matter that we can’t see, or we don’t understand gravity, or we don’t understand inertia.

所以现在我们只剩下一些我们看不到的物质，或者我们不了解引力，或者我们不了解惯性。

Now, I personally, if you asked me this, oh, I don’t know, 25 years ago, I would’ve said the most likely answer is that we don’t understand inertia or gravity.

现在，就我个人而言，如果你问我这个问题，哦，我不知道，25 年前，我会说最有可能的答案是我们不了解惯性或引力。

You know, I– if 20 years ago, 25 years ago, that’s what I would’ve said, no problem.

你知道，我——如果是 20 年前、25 年前，我会这么说，没问题。

However, there have been a couple of observations that have caused me to change my thinking, and I think that dark matter is more likely.

然而，有一些观察结果使我改变了想法，我认为暗物质更有可能。

One of them is called the Bullet Cluster.

其中之一被称为“子弹簇”。

So the Bullet Cluster, there are two large clusters of galaxies.

所以子弹星团有两个大的星系团。

In these large clusters of galaxies, well, any galaxy consists of a couple of components.

在这些大型星系团中，任何星系都由几个组件组成。

2:31:38 There are the galaxies themselves, there is the hydrogen gas that surrounds the galaxies, and maybe there is dark matter.

有星系本身，有围绕星系的氢气，也许还有暗物质。

And if dark matter is real or dark matter is not real, you will get different answers if those two galaxies pass through one another.

如果暗物质是真实的，或者暗物质不是真实的，当这两个星系相互穿过时，你会得到不同的答案。

The galaxies themselves should pass through one another basically not interacting, but the big thing is the gas clouds.

星系本身应该相互穿过，基本上不会相互作用，但最重要的是气体云。

So if there’s big clouds of gas, as the galaxies pass through one another, the clouds should interact, and the gas clouds should stop in the middle and be really, really hot.

因此，如果存在大量气体云，当星系相互穿过时，气体云应该相互作用，并且气体云应该停在中间，并且非常非常热。

2:32:09 So then you would see, if there were no dark matter, you would see a cluster of galaxies, cluster of galaxies, a big gas cloud in the middle, and because the big gas cloud in the middle is much more massive than the galaxies themselves, you would expect to see distortions that we call dark matter distortions in the middle.

所以你会看到，如果没有暗物质，你会看到一个星系团，星系团，中间有一个巨大的气体云，因为中间的大气体云比星系本身质量大得多，所以你会期望在中间看到我们称之为暗物质扭曲的扭曲。

If, however, dark matter is real, the galaxies pass through one another, the cloud stops, dark matter doesn’t interact with the cloud, so it passes through.

然而，如果暗物质是真实的，星系就会相互穿过，云就会停止，暗物质不会与云相互作用，所以它就会穿过。

In that case, you would expect to see the distortions where the galaxies are.

在这种情况下，您会期望看到星系所在位置的扭曲。

2:32:43 And that’s what we see.

这就是我们所看到的。

So that is a strong evidence in my mind.

所以这在我心里是一个强有力的证据。

The Bullet Cluster is strong evidence that dark matter is a real thing.

子弹星团有力地证明了暗物质是真实存在的。

And there is another example which is much more recent (the Bullet Cluster was a while ago) called the Dragonfly galaxies.

还有另一个更近的例子（子弹星团是不久前的事），称为蜻蜓星系。

There’s Dragonfly 2 and Dragonfly 4.

有《蜻蜓2》和《蜻蜓4》。

These are galaxies that rotate exactly according to Newton’s laws.

这些星系完全按照牛顿定律旋转。

2:33:08 And so the fact that they rotate exactly according to Newton’s laws says that whatever’s causing galaxies to rotate too fast is not a property of matter.

因此，它们完全按照牛顿定律旋转这一事实表明，导致星系旋转过快的原因并不是物质的属性。

But if you had a galaxy where there was no dark matter, for whatever reason it got stripped off or something, this is one of those lovely ironies that the existence of a galaxy with no dark matter is very strong evidence that dark matter is real because you can take the dark matter out.

但如果你有一个没有暗物质的星系，无论出于什么原因它被剥离了或者其他什么，这是一个可爱的讽刺之一，一个没有暗物质的星系的存在是暗物质真实存在的有力证据，因为你可以把暗物质去掉。

So the DF2 and DF4 also suggests to me that dark matter is real.

所以 DF2 和 DF4 也向我表明暗物质是真实的。

2:33:41 So now, while it remains possible that we need to modify the laws of inertia or we need to modify the laws of gravity, those are possible still.

所以现在，虽然我们仍然有可能需要修改惯性定律或万有引力定律，但这些仍然是可能的。

In my opinion, and now this is Don’s opinion, but it’s probably the opinion of most of the scientific community, dark matter is likely a real thing.

在我看来，现在这是唐的观点，但这可能是大多数科学界的观点，暗物质很可能是真实存在的。

2:34:04 Now, that’s great.

现在，那太好了。

I’ve taken you all the way to dark matter.

我已经带你一路了解暗物质了。

So now you’re gonna ask me, you’re gonna say, “Don, what is dark matter?” I’m gonna go, “I don’t know.” But I know what it isn’t.

所以现在你会问我，你会说，“唐，暗物质是什么？”我会说：“我不知道。”但我知道它不是什么。

Okay?

好的？

I know that it is not black holes.

我知道那不是黑洞。

I know that it is not rogue planets.

我知道那不是流氓行星。

I know that we’ve done the measurements.

我知道我们已经完成了测量。

We’ve looked across nearly every mass range for compact objects and ruled them out.

我们已经研究了致密天体的几乎所有质量范围，并排除了它们。

So if dark matter is real, it can’t be made of those.

因此，如果暗物质是真实的，它就不可能是由这些物质构成的。

So then you’re left with the idea that dark matter is a particle, and that’s what we’ve thought about.

那么你就会认为暗物质是一种粒子，这就是我们所考虑的。

The name for the dark matter particle that we’ve called for a long time is a WIMP, for a weakly interacting massive particle, and we have spent the last, God, 30 years looking for them in the various ways.

我们长期以来一直称呼的暗物质粒子的名字是 WIMP，即一种弱相互作用的大质量粒子，上帝啊，我们在过去 30 年里用各种方式寻找它们。

2:34:47 There are three ways that we might see dark matter, the direct way, which says that dark matter exists literally everywhere in this room, in our laboratory, and the dark matter is passing through the Earth like a wind, and we put up detectors trying to see those.

我们可以通过三种方式看到暗物质，直接方式，它说暗物质实际上存在于这个房间、我们的实验室里的任何地方，并且暗物质像风一样穿过地球，我们设置了探测器试图看到它们。

We have done that, and we’ve seen nothing.

我们已经这么做了，但我们什么也没看到。

So we should say we have done that for neutrinos.

所以我们应该说我们已经对中微子做到了这一点。

We’ve done that for many different types of dark matter.

我们已经对许多不同类型的暗物质做到了这一点。

2:35:08 We just simply put detectors in labs deep underground, and we can see neutrinos in them, it’s true, but dark matter would have—especially heavy dark matter, what these, these WIMPs—they have a different signature, and we’ve seen no evidence-

我们只是简单地将探测器放在地下深处的实验室中，我们可以在其中看到中微子，这是事实，但暗物质会存在——尤其是重暗物质，这些弱相互作用粒子——它们有不同的特征，而我们没有看到任何证据——

Got it.

明白了。

…

……

2:35:27 of dark matter interaction in these detectors.

这些探测器中的暗物质相互作用。

So neutrinos are also weakly interacting and also-

所以中微子的相互作用也很弱，而且——

They-

他们——

…

……

2:35:32 have mass, but-

有质量，但是-

They are

他们是

…

……

2:35:34 but not enough ma- so WIMPs are-

但没有足够的ma-所以WIMPs是-

Right.

对。

…

……

2:35:37 heavy on the M.

重在M。

Right.

对。

2:35:38 Neutrinos are indeed WIMPs of a sort.

中微子确实是某种弱相互作用粒子。

Now, we have to be careful what we mean by WIMPs.

现在，我们必须谨慎对待 WIMP 的含义。

They are weakly interacting massive particles, but we can calculate, and there’s just not enough mass in them.

它们是弱相互作用的大粒子，但我们可以计算，但它们的质量不够。

It’s not it.

不是它。

Got it.

知道了。

2:35:50 Got it.

知道了。

So we need another form, and we have seen zero evidence of this wind of dark matter through the Earth.

所以我们需要另一种形式，而我们在地球上看到的暗物质风的证据为零。

2:35:51 Another possibility is you look where you think dark matter might be concentrated at the center of galaxies, and if dark matter exists and there’s antimatter dark matter, maybe they annihilate and make photons.

另一种可能性是你认为暗物质可能集中在星系中心的地方，如果存在暗物质并且存在反物质暗物质，也许它们会湮灭并产生光子。

And so we look for gamma rays and various other signatures of annihilating dark matter, and there are always constantly announcements of, “Oh, we saw it.

因此，我们寻找伽马射线和各种其他毁灭暗物质的特征，并且总是不断地宣布，“哦，我们看到了它。

Oh, we didn’t.

哦，我们没有。

Oh, it…” You know, the problem is that way of looking for dark matter is hard because there are other ways of making, for instance, gamma rays like neutron stars and stuff, and you really need to understand the details of galaxies really, really well to believe that.

哦，它……”你知道，问题是寻找暗物质的方法很困难，因为还有其他方法可以制造伽马射线，例如中子星之类的东西，你真的需要非常非常好地了解星系的细节才能相信这一点。

2:36:40 And then the final option is what I do, where we smash particles together at high energy.

最后的选择就是我所做的，我们以高能将粒子粉碎在一起。

We try to make dark matter particles.

我们尝试制造暗物质粒子。

If you make dark matter particles, because they don’t interact except via gravity, they escape with your detector.

如果你制造暗物质粒子，因为它们除了通过重力之外不会相互作用，所以它们会随着你的探测器逃逸。

So what you’re seeing, what you hope to see, is an event where you collide particles, a dark matter particle escapes, and you don’t see it, but the recoil you see on the other side because momentum is conserved.

所以你所看到的，你希望看到的，是粒子碰撞、暗物质粒子逃逸的事件，你看不到它，但你在另一侧看到反冲，因为动量守恒。

So you see a blob of energy on this side, nothing on the other side.

所以你会在这一侧看到一团能量，而在另一侧则看不到任何东西。

Maybe that’s dark matter, and that also happens with neutrinos.

也许这就是暗物质，中微子也会发生这种情况。

So you need to understand everything about neutrinos and calculate how many of those you see and then hope you see more, and then that might be dark matter.

所以你需要了解有关中微子的一切，并计算你看到了多少中微子，然后希望你看到更多，然后那可能就是暗物质。

Again, that hasn’t worked.

再说一次，这并没有奏效。

2:37:21 So we’ve ruled out some dark matter particles, but the problem is the range of space of possible mass, if dark matter is of a particulate form, the range of viable dark matter ranges from something like the mass of an asteroid to far lighter than an electron and everywhere in between.

所以我们排除了一些暗物质粒子，但问题是可能质量的空间范围，如果暗物质是粒子形式，则可行的暗物质范围从小行星质量到比电子轻得多，以及介于两者之间的任何地方。

And we have looked.

我们已经看过了。

We’ve ruled out some little spots in that phase space, but that’s a big range.

我们已经排除了该相空间中的一些小点，但这是一个很大的范围。

Is it really possible to miss a particle the size of an asteroid?

真的有可能错过小行星大小的粒子吗？

The astronomical searches were not sensitive to that level of dark matter, but, you know, then you would expect that there would be some of those in the solar system.

天文学搜索对这种水平的暗物质并不敏感，但是，你知道，那么你会期望太阳系中会有一些暗物质。

2:37:54 And if they’re what we think, like asteroids or something, then we’d heat them up, and we’d eventually see them.

如果它们是我们所想的那样，比如小行星或其他什么东西，那么我们就会加热它们，最终我们就会看到它们。

But if they’re really, like, truly dark matter, doesn’t interact with matter, which means they wouldn’t absorb energy from the sun, so they’d be really dark.

但如果它们真的是真正的暗物质，不与物质相互作用，这意味着它们不会吸收来自太阳的能量，所以它们会是真正的暗物质。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

Maybe they’re out there.

也许他们就在那里。

But the only way we have searched for them was a thing called microlensing.

但我们寻找它们的唯一方法是一种叫做微透镜的东西。

So if a massive object, you have a distant star, and a massive object passes between that star and your eye, that star will momentarily brighten.

因此，如果一个巨大的物体，你有一颗遥远的恒星，并且一个巨大的物体经过该恒星和你的眼睛之间，那么该恒星会暂时变亮。

2:38:42 And so you just look for these, what they call microlensing events, and you count them, and you see some.

所以你只要寻找这些，他们称之为微透镜事件，然后对它们进行计数，你就会看到一些。

And we did see some.

我们确实看到了一些。

You know, black holes pass in front of stars, and we’ve seen them, but we just haven’t seen enough.

你知道，黑洞从恒星前面经过，我们已经看到它们，但我们还看不够。

And for very low-mass particles like asteroids, they just wouldn’t make enough brightening effect to see.

对于像小行星这样质量非常小的粒子，它们只是无法产生足够的增亮效果来观察。

So there’s, like, a minimum sensitivity of brightening and that about a third the mass of a moon, our moon, is about the sensitivity that we had.

因此，有一个最小的增亮敏感度，而月球（我们的月球）质量的大约三分之一与我们的敏感度有关。

So, you know, nobody, I think, really thought that these low-mass guys were likely.

所以，我想，没有人真正认为这些低质量的家伙可能存在。

What they thought was more likely they were just unseen black holes, which I thought- …

他们认为更有可能的是它们只是看不见的黑洞，我认为——……

you know, I think is completely reasonable.

你知道，我认为这是完全合理的。

Makes sense.

有道理。

And then when that got ruled out, I thought, okay, modified gravity or inertia.

然后当这种情况被排除时，我想，好吧，修改重力或惯性。

2:39:26 Well, now the, you know, Bullet Cluster and Dragonfly seem to have ruled that out.

好吧，现在，你知道，子弹簇和蜻蜓似乎已经排除了这种可能性。

So I’m stuck in my head with: dark matter seems to be real, and we don’t know what it is.

所以我脑子里一直在想：暗物质似乎是真实的，但我们不知道它是什么。

And it makes up a giant percentage of matter in the universe.

它在宇宙中的物质中占很大比例。

It is-

它是——

What is it?

它是什么？

…

……

2:39:47 five times more prevalent than ordinary matter.

比普通物质普遍存在五倍。

Wow.

哇。

2:39:49 This is incredible.

这太不可思议了。

It is incredible.

这太不可思议了。

This is so fascinating.

这太令人着迷了。

And that’s why it’s cool.

这就是它很酷的原因。

2:39:52 So if someone out there is, you know, a young person who wants to get into this, understanding dark matter is a big deal.

因此，如果有人，你知道，一个想要进入这个领域的年轻人，了解暗物质是一件大事。

I mean, it’s five times more prevalent.

我的意思是，它的流行程度是原来的五倍。

The problem is, as I told you, if the mass is ranging from an asteroid to far lighter than an electron, if you get on an experiment that looks at one little range of mass, maybe you weren’t the lucky guy that measured the right place, you know?

问题是，正如我告诉你的，如果质量范围从小行星到比电子轻得多，如果你进行一项只观察一小部分质量范围的实验，也许你不是那个测量正确位置的幸运者，你知道吗？

And that’s one of the reasons why, as fascinating as I think it is, I’m not doing dark matter experiments because, you know, if you make an experiment that searches one mass range, it’ll be blind to another mass range.

这就是为什么我不做暗物质实验的原因之一，尽管我认为这很有趣，因为，你知道，如果你做一个搜索一个质量范围的实验，它将对另一个质量范围视而不见。

2:40:31 So what you need is you need many groups doing all sorts of radically different experiments, exploring all sorts of parameter space.

因此，您需要的是许多小组进行各种完全不同的实验，探索各种参数空间。

And with all that said, until you see it, there still is the possibility that maybe we don’t understand gravity or inertia right.

尽管如此，在你看到它之前，我们仍然有可能没有正确理解重力或惯性。

You know, you can’t rule that out.

你知道，你不能排除这种可能性。

If there is dark matter out there, you’re hoping it’s actually somehow detectable.

如果那里存在暗物质，你希望它实际上能够以某种方式被检测到。

I mean, I don’t know what it is.

我的意思是，我不知道那是什么。

2:40:56 I think it’s cool.

我认为这很酷。

It’s very, very fascinating.

这非常非常令人着迷。

That is one thing I really do hope in my lifetime is understood ’cause I’d like to know the answer to that.

这是我真正希望在有生之年能够被理解的一件事，因为我想知道答案。

And that, that’s the thing that you could– there legitimately you could see a discovery of-

那就是你可以——在那里你可以合法地看到一个发现——

You gotta get lucky though.

不过你得运气好。

2:41:12 I mean, you gotta look in the right place, whatever it is.

我的意思是，无论它是什么，你都必须找对地方。

Just imagine.

想象一下。

Or you have to come up with that really cool theoretical idea that everybody’s overlooked, which is another possibility.

或者你必须想出一个非常酷的理论想法，但每个人都忽视了，这是另一种可能性。

2:41:17 And there are people who are really, really religiously hating dark matter, largely because we’ve looked so hard for so many years and the experiments in today’s world are a million times more sensitive than when I was a starting student- …

有些人真的非常非常讨厌暗物质，很大程度上是因为我们多年来一直在努力寻找暗物质，而当今世界的实验比我还是一名刚开始学习的学生时敏感一百万倍——……

and they still haven’t seen anything.

他们仍然什么也没看到。

And that’s why people really hate dark matter.

这就是为什么人们真的讨厌暗物质。

I mean, some of them- …

我的意思是，其中一些——……

because they think we should have seen it by now, but- …

因为他们认为我们现在应该已经看到了，但是——……

you know, I don’t know.

你知道，我不知道。

I mean, I’m a sucker for direct observation.

我的意思是，我很喜欢直接观察。

2:41:49 Not– Indirect is obviously also really great, but direct, just imagine pointing your telescope in a certain direction and because of some artifact of cosmology being able to directly detect a giant amount of a thing that you could say is dark matter.

不是——间接显然也很棒，但是直接，想象一下将你的望远镜指向某个方向，并且由于宇宙学的某种神器能够直接探测到大量你可以说是暗物质的东西。

Yeah, you would see it orbit, things orbit it.

是的，你会看到它绕轨道运行，物体绕它运行。

2:42:08 Or it would- …

或者它会——……

eclipse things in front of it or-

遮蔽它前面的东西或者-

Yeah, like in an obvious way.

是的，就像以一种明显的方式一样。

2:42:13 ‘Cause some of the stuff you mentioned with DF-2 and DF-4, those are like brilliant indirect deductions that there should be something like dark matter.

因为你在 DF-2 和 DF-4 中提到的一些东西，就像精彩的间接推论，应该存在像暗物质这样的东西。

But some obvious, yeah, blocking, occluding, this kind of thing.

但有些明显的，是的，阻塞，遮挡，这类事情。

We did that in the ’90s with experiments called MACHO, OGLE, and some others.

我们在 90 年代通过名为 MACHO、OGLE 和其他一些实验来做到这一点。

2:42:32 They looked for a black hole that you just can’t see, you know, a black hole you can’t see.

他们寻找一个你看不见的黑洞，你知道，一个你看不见的黑洞。

It’s perfect.

太完美了。

It’s a perfect candidate for dark matter.

它是暗物质的完美候选者。

And if there’s enough of them out there– Now remember, there’s five times- …

如果那里有足够多的人——现在记住，有五次——……

the number of stars, which means there’s a whole lot of freaking black holes out there.

恒星的数量，这意味着那里有很多可怕的黑洞。

We should have seen them, and we didn’t.

我们应该看到他们，但我们没有。

What a grand mystery.

多么伟大的谜团啊。

2:42:56 We’ve covered so many of them.

我们已经介绍了其中很多。

I could talk to you for a thousand more hours, Don.

我可以和你再聊一千个小时，唐。

Let me, if I can, ask you about a little bit more of a on the personal side.

如果可以的话，让我多问一些关于个人方面的问题。

You have a really inspiring life story.

你有一个非常鼓舞人心的人生故事。

Your folks didn’t go to college.

你的家人没有上过大学。

Can you just tell me about your childhood and where you found the love for physics and science, and maybe how you found your journey to become a physicist, given the context of where you came from?

您能否告诉我您的童年以及您在哪里找到对物理和科学的热爱，以及考虑到您来自哪里的背景，您是如何找到成为物理学家的旅程的？

Well you know, I grew up a poor kid in the boondocks.

你知道，我是一个在偏远地区长大的穷孩子。

2:43:31 Great parents, but not ones that could guide me terribly academically, but very, very nurturing.

伟大的父母，虽然不能在学术上对我进行很好的指导，但非常非常有教养。

You know, my mom would laugh that she could stop helping me math after like sixth or seventh grade, you know.

你知道，我妈妈会笑说她可以在六年级或七年级后停止帮助我数学，你知道。

But they were supportive.

但他们很支持。

And there were a couple of things that– couple, three things I think that folded into it.

我认为其中包含了几件事——三件事。

One is I was a voracious reader as a kid.

一是我小时候是一个贪婪的读者。

I loved science fiction.

我喜欢科幻小说。

I would read a book a day.

我每天会读一本书。

It drove my mother nuts ’cause she would try to be nice.

这让我母亲抓狂，因为她会尽力表现得友善。

She’d buy me a book, and I’d say, “Thank you,” and the next day it’d be done.

她会给我买一本书，我会说“谢谢”，第二天就会完成。

You know, it just drove her completely nuts.

你知道，这让她彻底疯了。

But anyways, but science fiction is good for fostering imagination, and so that’s precisely what it did.

但无论如何，科幻小说有利于培养想象力，所以它也确实做到了这一点。

2:44:20 In addition, and this is where the more serious science came along, there were lovely science communicators that were popular in the 1970s, Isaac Asimov, Carl Sagan, a guy by the name of George Gamow.

此外，这就是更严肃的科学出现的地方，还有 20 世纪 70 年代流行的可爱的科学传播者，艾萨克·阿西莫夫、卡尔·萨根，还有一个名叫乔治·伽莫夫的人。

They wrote books about science aimed at a layperson.

他们为外行人写了有关科学的书籍。

You know, as a kid, I surely couldn’t read a textbook and understand it, but I could read and, you know, get a hint of what science was.

你知道，作为一个孩子，我肯定无法阅读教科书并理解它，但我可以阅读，并且，你知道，得到关于科学是什么的暗示。

And on top of that, you know, I was, as most scientists, people who became scientists, irrepressibly curious about everything.

最重要的是，你知道，我和大多数科学家一样，成为科学家，对一切都抑制不住的好奇。

And I had sort of a quasi-philosophical mind.

我有一种准哲学头脑。

I mean, I was interested in things that, questions that have in the past been theological and then philosophical and now are more scientific.

我的意思是，我对那些过去是神学问题、然后是哲学问题、现在更加科学的问题感兴趣。

Questions about how did the universe come into existence?

关于宇宙是如何存在的问题？

2:45:18 Why is the universe the way it is?

宇宙为何是现在这个样子？

Why are the laws of the universe what we see them to be?

为什么宇宙法则是我们所看到的样子？

How will the universe– Was it created?

宇宙是如何被创造出来的？

How will it be destroyed?

它将如何被摧毁？

These are, you know, big questions that have bothered humanity for, well, thousands of years.

你知道，这些都是困扰人类数千年的大问题。

And so, you know, I did.

所以，你知道，我做到了。

You, you said I had philosophy and religion minors in college, and I did ’cause I was curious about that.

你，你说我在大学里辅修了哲学和宗教，我确实这么做了，因为我对此很好奇。

I was hoping that learning that history might help me understand these questions.

我希望了解历史可以帮助我理解这些问题。

And it was in college where I came to realize that the answers that I was searching for were not to be found in those directions, but I still learned about how those questions have been asked in the past.

正是在大学里，我开始意识到我正在寻找的答案在这些方向上是找不到的，但我仍然了解到过去是如何提出这些问题的。

And so I became a scientist, and the only question was, was I going to be a cosmologist/astrophysicist-

所以我成为了一名科学家，唯一的问题是，我是否会成为一名宇宙学家/天体物理学家——

2:46:10 …

……

or a particle physicist?

或者粒子物理学家？

And when I had to make that decision.

当我必须做出这个决定时。

It was the mid-’80s, and at the time, there were a lot fewer cosmology measurements.

那是八十年代中期，当时的宇宙学测量要少得多。

There was an awful lot of thinking about the universe and not enough measuring.

人们对宇宙的思考太多，但测量却不够。

Whereas with particle physics, by God, you could do experiments.

而对于粒子物理学，上帝啊，你可以做实验。

And so the– what attracted me was the ability to actually get an answer and not just mull over what an answer might be.

因此，吸引我的是真正获得答案的能力，而不仅仅是思考答案可能是什么。

And so I became a particle physicist.

于是我成为了一名粒子物理学家。

It was difficult without having, you know, family mentors or anything like that, but, but, you know, I managed.

没有家庭导师或类似的东西，这很困难，但是，但是，你知道，我做到了。

2:46:52 And that actually is why, well, I’m here and why I have spent a fair bit of my time writing books and so forth, because I figure that there has to be some other kid out there in Iowa or Kansas, Montana, somewhere out in some little town without a lot of access to the kinds of thing that people, you know, who have highly educated parents do.

这实际上就是为什么我在这里，为什么我花了相当多的时间写书等等，因为我认为在爱荷华州或堪萨斯州、蒙大拿州的某个小镇上一定还有其他孩子，他们无法接触到那些父母受过高等教育的人所做的事情。

And I’m hoping that, you know, some of them will have read some of the things I’ve written and will find their own path forward, because I found it very rewarding over the years.

我希望，你知道，他们中的一些人会读过我写的一些东西，并找到自己的前进道路，因为多年来我发现它非常有价值。

And you know, I’ve been doing this long enough that I’m, I’m sure this is true.

你知道，我已经这样做了足够长的时间，我确信这是真的。

I’ve had kids come up to me at the lab and say, “Hey, I’m a summer intern because I saw your video or read your book,” or, you know, whatever.

我曾在实验室遇到过孩子们对我说：“嘿，我是一名暑期实习生，因为我看过你的视频或读过你的书，”或者，你知道，诸如此类。

2:47:43 So I know that at least I’ve made a small impact.

所以我知道至少我产生了一点影响。

I mean, I always would like to do more, and, you know, I appreciate the opportunity that your audience affords me ’cause I, I think it’s important to talk about these things.

我的意思是，我总是想做更多，而且，你知道，我很感激你的观众为我提供的机会，因为我认为谈论这些事情很重要。

These are really cool, fascinating questions.

这些都是非常酷、有趣的问题。

They are unanswered, and they are just waiting for youngsters to come and spend some time thinking about them, ’cause one of your viewers might be one of the people who answer these questions that have stymied very smart people for decades.

这些问题没有答案，他们只是等待年轻人来花一些时间思考这些问题，因为你的一位观众可能是回答这些问题的人之一，这些问题几十年来一直困扰着非常聪明的人。

And we should also say that you’re a legit scientist.

我们还应该说你是一位合法的科学家。

2:48:18 So what– we’ll mention Sean Carroll, who’s a legit scientist, legit physicist, but is also a good science communicator.

那又怎样——我们会提到肖恩·卡罗尔，他是一位正统的科学家、正统的物理学家，但也是一位优秀的科学传播者。

Anyway, I did wanna mention, I don’t know if this is true, but I, I kind of heard you talk about this, that when you first showed up to Fermilab, you were, like, working crazy hours, working extremely hard- …

不管怎样，我确实想提一下，我不知道这是否属实，但我，我听到你谈论这个，当你第一次出现在费米实验室时，你就像在疯狂工作，工作非常努力 - ......

eight AM to midnight.

上午八点到午夜。

I did.

我做到了。

First of all, I love that.

首先，我喜欢这个。

2:48:44 Can you speak to what drove you and maybe the value of hard work in those contexts, in your, in the early career when you discover a thing you’re passionate about?

你能谈谈是什么驱使你，也许是在你的早期职业生涯中，当你发现自己热爱的事情时，努力工作的价值吗？

Well, yeah.

嗯，是的。

2:49:00 I mean, obviously being smart, you know, if you’re Einstein, then maybe you can slack, I guess.

我的意思是，显然很聪明，你知道，如果你是爱因斯坦，那么也许你可以放松，我想​​。

Although even he didn’t do that, but I’m not Einstein.

虽然连他都没有这么做，但我不是爱因斯坦。

But the fact is, when I was young, and I was unencumbered, no family, no kids or something, I couldn’t imagine anything I wanted to do more.

但事实是，当我年轻的时候，我没有任何负担，没有家庭，没有孩子什么的，我无法想象我想做更多的事情。

I mean, some people, they wanna go out to the club.

我的意思是，有些人想要去俱乐部。

They wanna, I don’t know, play soccer or something.

我不知道，他们想踢足球什么的。

But I wanted to make measurements, and I wanted to understand and learn, and that was fantastic.

但我想要进行测量，我想要理解和学习，这太棒了。

And so as a graduate student, and this isn’t for everybody, but I worked outrageously.

作为一名研究生，这并不适合所有人，但我工作得非常努力。

2:49:36 I would, from Monday through Saturday, I would be at the lab voluntarily because I wanted to be from eight AM to midnight, and on Sunday, I would work from eight until about five, and that’s because from five to midnight, I had to wash clothes and buy groceries and things like that.

我会，从周一到周六，我会自愿在实验室，因为我想从早上八点到午夜，而周日，我会从八点工作到五点左右，那是因为从五点到午夜，我必须洗衣服，买杂货之类的东西。

And I loved it, you know.

我喜欢它，你知道。

And I still love it.

我仍然喜欢它。

I can’t do that anymore.

我不能再这样做了。

But, but that’s simply because I have other obligations.

但是，但这只是因为我还有其他义务。

But had I been rich, I would’ve done the same thing.

但如果我很有钱，我也会做同样的事情。

2:50:09 You know, it’s something I truly, truly loved.

你知道，这是我真正、真正喜欢的东西。

And the– I mean, there is absolutely nothing more fascinating to me than having a hard problem and figuring it out.

我的意思是，对我来说，没有什么比遇到一个难题并解决它更令人着迷的了。

And that, you know, that work ethic– Well, there’s a couple of things that separate smart people from no-kidding scientists, ’cause all scientists are smart.

而且，你知道，这种职业道德——嗯，有一些东西可以将聪明人和严肃的科学家区分开来，因为所有科学家都很聪明。

But the thing that separates, that many scientists have is, A, a drive and a real grit.

但许多科学家所拥有的区别在于，A、驱动力和真正的毅力。

For me and for so many scientists that I know, trying to measure something and having it not work just kinda ticks me off, and I am not going to let the universe in my lab or whatever beat me.

对于我和我认识的许多科学家来说，试图测量某些东西却不起作用，这让我有点恼火，我不会让实验室里的宇宙或其他什么打败我。

And, you know, some people…

而且，你知道，有些人……

they, you know, if the thing breaks, it’s like, “Oh, man, that didn’t work.” And a lot of people, “Well, I’m gonna go home.

他们，你知道，如果东西坏了，就像，“哦，伙计，那不起作用。”很多人说：“好吧，我要回家了。

2:51:06 I’m fed up.” Nah, it would just kinda make me mad, and I’d put more effort into it.

我厌倦了。”不，这会让我有点生气，我会付出更多的努力。

And, you know, not every– I mean, okay, I was crazy.

而且，你知道，不是每个——我的意思是，好吧，我疯了。

I worked long hours.

我工作时间很长。

But, but I think- …

但是，但是我想——……

the people who are really good at this will do maybe not that much, you know.

你知道，真正擅长这方面的人可能不会做那么多。

Some people have to have a better life than that.

有些人必须过上比这更好的生活。

But, but a lot, because it, it’s just you can’t imagine not knowing the answer.

但是，但是很多，因为它，只是你无法想象不知道答案。

2:51:29 And that if– When, when you see that as an older guy, you don’t– maybe not to that degree, but when you see that kinda drive, that intensity of trying to get the answers, you know that person’s a winner.

如果——当你作为一个年长的人看到这一点时，你不会——也许没有达到那种程度，但是当你看到那种动力，那种试图获得答案的强度时，你就知道那个人是赢家。

And, and so if, you know, some student out there, if it doesn’t, you know, bring you joy, as uh, what’s her name?

而且，如果，你知道，某个学生，如果没有，你知道，给你带来快乐，呃，她叫什么名字？

The Japanese girl says, “If it doesn’t bring you joy, then it might not be for you.” And then you could be a person who reads about it and, you know, is involved.

日本女孩说：“如果它不能给你带来快乐，那么它可能不适合你。”然后你可能会成为一个读到它并且参与其中的人。

But if you wanna be a real scientist, it has to be just part of what you are here.

但如果你想成为一名真正的科学家，它就必须成为你在这里的一部分。

And by the way, it is a hard life, but it is also a very fulfilling one.

顺便说一下，这是一种艰苦的生活，但也是一种非常充实的生活。

2:52:06 So working hard towards the thing you love is a really fulfilling way to be.

因此，为自己喜欢的事情而努力是一种非常充实的方式。

I think that’s true for an artist or something, you know, anybody, a musician, you know?

我认为这对于艺术家或其他什么人来说都是如此，你知道，任何人，音乐家，你知道吗？

2:52:19 Musician, they just keep practicing because it is who they are.

音乐家，他们只是不断练习，因为这就是他们。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

2:52:27 Well, I’m glad there’s people like you at a place I admire, like Fermilab, one of the many places in the United States and the world that is carrying the beacon of great science and great engineering forward.

嗯，我很高兴在我敬佩的地方有像你这样的人，比如费米实验室，它是美国和世界上众多引领伟大科学和伟大工程前进的灯塔的地方之一。

Don, thank you so much for everything you do, for all the teaching you do online, for all the incredible physics work that you do at Fermilab, and thank you so much for talking today.

唐，非常感谢你所做的一切，感谢你在网上所做的所有教学，感谢你在费米实验室所做的所有令人难以置信的物理工作，也非常感谢你今天的发言。

Thank you for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Don Lincoln.

感谢您收听与唐·林肯的对话。

2:53:01 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on.

为了支持这个播客，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商，您还可以在其中找到联系我、提出问题、提供反馈等的链接。

And now, let me leave you with some words from Marie Curie, a two-time Nobel Prize winner, first in physics, second in chemistry: “Nothing in life is to be feared.

现在，让我向你们传达两届诺贝尔奖得主居里夫人的话：“生活中没有什么值得害怕的。

It is only to be understood.” Thank you for listening.

这只能被理解。”感谢您的聆听。

I hope to see you next time.

我希望下次能见到你。