安东尼·卡尔德利斯：罗马帝国、拜占庭帝国、帝国的兴衰

We’re talking about a society that was right in the middle of one of the main corridors of empire building and new religions in the world.

我们谈论的是一个位于帝国建设和世界新宗教主要走廊之一中间的社会。

00:00 This is the most dangerous neighborhood that you can possibly live in.

这是您可能居住的最危险的社区。

26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years.

50年间有26位皇帝被谋杀。

Yes.

是的。

00:18 It’s tremendous instability.

这是巨大的不稳定。

Almost all were—of these emperors—were generals, and almost all were murdered by their men.

这些皇帝几乎都是将军，而且几乎都被手下谋杀了。

00:21 So civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, plus there’s a plague.

所以内战是常态，恶性通货膨胀，经济崩溃，再加上瘟疫。

There’s just a lot of chaos.

只是有很多混乱。

Here’s why I don’t think the Eastern Roman Empire is a military dictatorship.

这就是为什么我不认为东罗马帝国是一个军事独裁国家。

00:34 Even though, again, the emperors control the armies and the armies themselves will often have a say in who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned.

尽管皇帝控制着军队，而军队本身通常对谁成为皇帝有发言权，就像我们提到的内战一样。

The reason why I don’t think it’s a military dictatorship is because they almost never, very, very, very rarely use the army as an instrument of social control.

我之所以不认为这是军事独裁，是因为他们几乎从不、非常、非常、很少使用军队作为社会控制的工具。

Sometimes these eunuchs were extremely competent like Narses, Justinian’s general, who defeated the Goths in Italy in this massive battle.

有时这些太监非常能干，就像查士丁尼的将军纳尔塞斯一样，他在意大利的这场大规模战役中击败了哥特人。

Like, this guy was a total hardass.

就像，这家伙是个十足的硬汉。

And he’s this little old man.

他就是这个小老头。

He was very old, and he was tiny, and he was a eunuch, and the Goths laughed at him, but he had the last laugh.

他年纪很大，个子很小，而且还是个太监，哥特人都嘲笑他，但他笑到了最后。

The following is a conversation with Anthony Kaldellis, a historian of the Eastern Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire.

以下是与东罗马帝国（又称拜占庭帝国）历史学家安东尼·卡德里斯的对话。

01:24 This is a Lex Fridman podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客。

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on.

为了支持它，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商，您还可以在其中找到联系我、提出问题、提供反馈等的链接。

And now, dear friends, here’s Anthony Kaldellis.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是安东尼·卡德里斯。

01:51 You’ve described that the Byzantine Empire is the Roman Empire, that calling it the Byzantine Empire is an invention of historians writing long after the empire has collapsed, that the people of that time considered themselves Romans, and that the so-called Byzantine Empire never actually existed, that it was, in every legal and cultural sense, the Roman Empire continuing unbroken.

您描述过，拜占庭帝国就是罗马帝国，称其为拜占庭帝国是帝国崩溃很久之后历史学家的发明，当时的人们认为自己是罗马人，所谓的拜占庭帝国实际上从未存在过，从任何法律和文化意义上来说，它都是罗马帝国，从未被打破。

02:18 So let’s get our terms right in the grand historical context.

因此，让我们在宏大的历史背景下正确理解我们的术语。

What is the Byzantine Empire, and why should we just call it the Roman Empire?

什么是拜占庭帝国，为什么我们称其为罗马帝国？

So Lex, the burden of proof is on those who would assert that what we’ve been calling the Byzantine Empire is something other- …

所以莱克斯，举证责任在于那些断言我们所说的拜占庭帝国是其他东西的人——……

02:28 than the Roman Empire, because all of our sources are very clear about this.

比罗马帝国更重要，因为我们所有的消息来源都非常清楚这一点。

And we’ve known about this.

我们已经知道这一点。

We’ve always known about it.

我们一直都知道这一点。

It’s almost a form of cognitive dissonance, right?

这几乎是一种认知失调，对吧？

It’s like when you know something is the case, but you carry on as if it’s not.

这就像当你知道某件事是这样的，但你却继续说，好像事实并非如此。

02:47 So the Eastern Roman Empire, this is the direct continuation of the ancient Roman Empire in the East, right?

那么东罗马帝国，这就是东方古罗马帝国的直接延续吧？

Everybody knows the Western Empire fell in the fifth century.

大家都知道西方帝国在五世纪灭亡了。

And for many conceptions of Western history, that was sufficient.

对于西方历史的许多概念来说，这就足够了。

Like, that’s when we just called it.

就像，那就是我们刚刚打电话的时候。

The Roman Empire fell in the fifth century.

罗马帝国于五世纪灭亡。

And we kind of, yeah, we kind of know that the eastern half survived, but we don’t want to include that in our cultural genealogy.

是的，我们知道东半部幸存下来，但我们不想将其纳入我们的文化谱系中。

And so we kind of pretend that it became something else.

所以我们假装它变成了别的东西。

But in fact, it called itself the Roman Empire.

但事实上，它自称为罗马帝国。

Its subjects were Roman citizens.

它的臣民是罗马公民。

They called themselves Romans all the way down through to the end and beyond.

他们自始至终都称自己为罗马人。

03:22 So there are a number of reasons why Western Europeans wanted to think that the Eastern Empire is something different, and those reasons have created these models where they called it the Empire of the Greeks for 1,000 years, then they switched to Byzantine Empire for very political reasons.

因此，西欧人想要认为东罗马帝国是不同的有很多原因，这些原因创造了这些模型，他们称其为希腊帝国一千年，然后出于政治原因转向拜占庭帝国。

Now that’s collapsing.

现在这种情况正在崩溃。

So we’re now moving into a phase where we have the long Roman Empire.

所以我们现在正进入一个拥有悠久罗马帝国的阶段。

We recognize that the history of the Roman state, the Roman polity, is something that lasts an extraordinarily long time.

我们认识到，罗马国家、罗马政体的历史持续了非常长的时间。

Very unique, almost, in history, from antiquity, like the archaic period, down to the 15th century.

从古代（如古代时期）一直到 15 世纪，几乎在历史上都是非常独特的。

I think it would be really nice to actually look just for a brief moment at the grand scale of the full Roman state as it lasted for over 2,200 years.

我认为，如果能够短暂地参观一下整个罗马国家的宏伟规模，因为它持续了 2,200 多年，那就太好了。

03:59 So its founding, 753 BC, to let’s say the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD.

所以它的成立时间是公元前 753 年，比方说君士坦丁堡的陷落是在公元 1453 年。

So can we try to give a big picture overview of everything that happened?

那么我们是否可以尝试对所发生的一切进行总体概述？

Okay, so first we have a period of the kings.

好的，首先我们有一个国王时期。

04:25 This is almost legendary, from like the eighth century BC down to around 510 BC.

这几乎是传奇，从公元前8世纪一直到公元前510年左右。

So this is when Rome is ruled by a series of local kings.

这就是罗马由一系列当地国王统治的时期。

The kings are expelled, and the republic, or what we call the republic is instituted, and this is a regime that’s governed by mostly an aristocracy, but with cooperation from the people of Rome.

国王被驱逐，共和国成立，或者我们所说的共和国成立，这是一个主要由贵族统治的政权，但也得到罗马人民的合作。

In various ways, the arrangements change over the centuries.

几个世纪以来，这些安排以各种方式发生了变化。

So that lasts for about five centuries.

所以这持续了大约五个世纪。

And then we have the end of the republic in the era of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar, when the civil wars lead to the creation of an imperial monarchy-

然后，在朱利叶斯·凯撒和奥古斯都·凯撒时代，共和国结束了，内战导致了帝国君主制的建立——

05:05 …

……

right, under Augustus.

正确的，在奥古斯都统治下。

So that’s, we date that roughly either, yeah, 27 BC, something like that.

所以，我们大致确定了日期，是的，公元前 27 年，类似的事情。

And thereafter, it is an imperial monarchy for the next millennium and a half.

此后，它在接下来的一个半世纪里都是帝国君主制。

Very broadly, we can divide that into two phases, one where the center of power is in Rome, and one where it’s in Constantinople.

从广义上讲，我们可以将其分为两个阶段，一个阶段是权力中心在罗马，另一个阶段是在君士坦丁堡。

And, you know, we can debate the dates of when that transition takes place.

而且，你知道，我们可以讨论过渡发生的日期。

These big transitions usually take place over long periods of time.

这些重大转变通常会持续很长一段时间。

They’re not, like, very sudden.

它们并不是非常突然。

So that’s the big picture.

这就是大局。

Kings, republic, imperial monarchy.

国王、共和制、君主制。

The Roman Kingdom, the Roman Republic, the Roman Empire.

罗马王国、罗马共和国、罗马帝国。

Yes.

是的。

And then the West and East Roman Empire.

然后是西罗马帝国和东罗马帝国。

Yes.

是的。

And then maybe what are the different terms that we could be using for the Byzantine Empire, including Byzantium?

那么，也许我们可以对拜占庭帝国（包括拜占庭）使用哪些不同的术语？

05:50 Is it also fair to say the Late Roman Empire?

说晚期罗马帝国也公平吗？

So Late Roman Empire we use for both east and west, starting around the reign of Diocletian maybe, even a bit earlier, so during the third century AD.

因此，我们在东方和西方都使用晚期罗马帝国，可能是从戴克里先统治时期开始的，甚至更早一些，所以是在公元三世纪。

06:03 And that goes down to maybe the early seventh century.

这可能可以追溯到七世纪初。

So that period we call Late Roman Empire.

所以那个时期我们称之为晚期罗马帝国。

And if you ask me to define its principal characteristics, it would probably be the tax system and the administration, the bureaucracy— …

如果你让我定义它的主要特征，它可能是税收制度和行政管理、官僚机构……

of the later Roman Empire is that that comes from mostly Diocletian and Constantine’s reforms.

后来罗马帝国的改革主要来自戴克里先和君士坦丁的改革。

And Diocletian was in the 3rd century.

戴克里先是在三世纪。

Yes, 284 to 305 AD.

是的，公元284年到305年。

06:35 Yes.

是的。

A very important reformer.

一位非常重要的改革家。

And we’ll talk about it, but let’s just do this whirlwind, and hopefully there’ll be automagical images somewhere overlaid, but—

我们会讨论它，但让我们来一下旋风，希望在某处重叠有自动魔法图像，但是——

Okay.

好的。

So in 753 BC, Rome, a small city state, is founded, and in 509 BC, the kings are overthrown, and the Roman Republic is born.

于是公元前753年，小城邦罗马成立，公元前509年，诸王被推翻，罗马共和国诞生。

06:46 390 BC, the Gauls sack Rome, and this, I believe, among other events throughout its history, is a formative trauma that hardens Rome’s security obsession.

公元前 390 年，高卢人洗劫了罗马，我相信，除了罗马历史上的其他事件之外，这也是一个形成性的创伤，强化了罗马对安全的痴迷。

It turns out, throughout its history, people want to attack from different directions, and so you have to defend.

事实证明，纵观其历史，人们想要从不同的方向进攻，所以你必须防守。

So there’s two wars, as we’re actually saying off mic.

所以有两场战争，正如我们实际上关掉麦克风所说的那样。

There’s two kinds of military operations.

军事行动有两种。

One is wars of conquest and expansion, and one is more defensive.

一种是征服和扩张战争，一种是防御性战争。

And we’ll talk about how the military changes throughout its history to allocate more effort to one versus the other.

我们将讨论军队在其历史上如何变化，以便为一方分配更多的精力。

07:40 In 264 to 146 BC, the Punic Wars and the survival against Hannibal transform Rome into a Mediterranean superpower.

公元前 264 至 146 年，布匿战争和战胜汉尼拔的胜利将罗马转变为地中海超级大国。

Then, like you mentioned, Caesar in 49 to 31 BC, Caesar’s crossing of the Rubicon to assassination of Caesar to the Battle of Actium, and then the Civil War dismantles the Republic and concentrates power in a single ruler, Octavian, AKA Augustus, the first Roman emperor, let’s say.

然后，就像你提到的，公元前 49 至 31 年的凯撒，凯撒越过卢比孔河，刺杀凯撒，然后是亚克兴战役，然后内战瓦解了共和国，将权力集中在一个统治者身上，屋大维，又名奥古斯都，罗马第一位皇帝，比方说。

Then 27 BC, Augustus founds the Principate, really low-key monarchy.

然后公元前27年，奥古斯都建立了元首制，真正低调的君主制。

And so officially, that ends the Republic, and then that begins 27 BC to 180 AD, the Pax Romana, which is a period of relative peace and stability.

正式地，共和国结束了，然后从公元前 27 年到公元 180 年开始，即罗马和平时期，这是一个相对和平与稳定的时期。

And a lot of the emperors we know of, the sexy, popular emperors all come from that period.

而我们认识的很多皇帝，那些性感、受欢迎的皇帝都来自那个时期。

08:36 Marcus Aurelius, who I’m a big fan of, from that period.

我是那个时期的马库斯·奥勒留（Marcus Aurelius）的忠实粉丝。

Then that takes us to 284 AD, the guy we mentioned, Diocletian, who rebuilds the state.

然后我们就到了公元 284 年，就是我们提到的戴克里先，他重建了国家。

Emperors drop the first citizen mask, this perception of the way, and we’ll talk about this, the, the persona that’s presented by the state.

皇帝们摘下了第一个公民面具，这种对方式的看法，我们将讨论这个，这个，国家所呈现的角色。

312 AD, Constantine defeats Maxentius at the Milvian Bridge to become the sole ruler of the western half of the empire, and then founds Constantinople in 330 AD.

公元312年，君士坦丁在米尔维安桥击败马克森提乌斯，成为帝国西半部的唯一统治者，并于公元330年建立君士坦丁堡。

East and West are split in 395 AD.

公元 395 年，东西方分裂。

Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD.

西哥特人于公元 410 年洗劫了罗马。

The West falls in 476 AD as the last Western emperor is deposed.

公元 476 年，西方最后一位皇帝被废黜，西方陷落。

And then we sort of focus more on the East Roman Empire with 527.

然后我们更多地关注 527 的东罗马帝国。

In the 6th century, Justinian’s reign.

公元6世纪，查士丁尼在位。

In the 7th century, Heraclius defeats Persia and then loses against the Arabs.

7世纪，希拉克略击败波斯，又败给阿拉伯人。

09:36 There’s the Arab conquest continuing in the 7th century.

公元七世纪，阿拉伯人的征服仍在继续。

In the 8th, the Arab siege of Constantinople fails.

8日，阿拉伯人围攻君士坦丁堡失败。

There’s the Macedonian dynasty that you have an excellent book about.

你有一本关于马其顿王朝的好书。

And then the Crusades, and then eventually leading to Constantinople falling in 1453 AD.

然后是十字军东征，最终导致君士坦丁堡于公元 1453 年陷落。

As a person who understands the full journey of it with a focus on East Roman history, is there obvious glaring holes or incorrect things in what I just said?

作为一个了解整个历史、关注东罗马历史的人，我刚才说的有没有明显的漏洞或者不正确的地方？

No, nothing incorrect.

不，没有什么不正确的。

10:14 I would say if you wanted to produce a sort of very swift timeline of its history, it’s obviously important to focus on the moments when lots of territory was lost to foreign invaders, and these are actually three main moments.

我想说，如果你想制作一个非常快速的历史时间表，那么显然重要的是要关注大量领土被外国侵略者占领的时刻，而这实际上是三个主要时刻。

There’s the Arab conquests in the 630s.

630 年代有阿拉伯人的征服。

This is a decade.

这是十年。

In a decade, that war was lost.

十年后，那场战争失败了。

It is the Seljuk Turk conquest of Asia Minor, modern Turkey, in the 1070s, and that was very swift and partly reversed afterwards, but only partly.

这是塞尔柱土耳其人在 1070 年代对小亚细亚（现代土耳其）的征服，这一过程非常迅速，后来部分逆转，但只是部分逆转。

And then there’s the Fourth Crusade, 1204, when the armies from mostly France sack, conquer Constantinople, and dismember the empire as much as they could.

然后是 1204 年第四次十字军东征，当时主要来自法国的军队洗劫、征服君士坦丁堡，并尽可能地肢解帝国。

It didn’t last that long.

它并没有持续那么久。

The Romans managed to regroup and recover, but those are the three main crisis points.

罗马人设法重新集结并恢复元气，但这是三个主要的危机点。

11:16 They are very swift, but they cause incredible damage.

它们速度非常快，但造成的伤害却令人难以置信。

For all the rest of its history, it is a state and society that is generally sort of consolidating, you know, regrouping, and generally engaged in slow but steady economic growth, territorial expansion on a small scale, but steady.

在其余下的历史中，这个国家和社会总体上在某种程度的巩固、重组，总体上进行缓慢但稳定的经济增长，小规模但稳定的领土扩张。

So we can talk about this.

所以我们可以谈谈这个。

It’s…

这是……

I think it’s an important thing to keep in mind about the big picture, that the defeats were swift and kind of, you know, terrible but most of its history is one of slow growth.

我认为重要的是要牢记大局，失败是迅速的，而且有点可怕，但它的大部分历史都是缓慢增长的。

There’s some traumatic events that have a big impact, but a lot of the developments we’ll talk about it might seem or feel like there’s a particular moment when those developments or changes in the way the government or the military is structured arise, but really it’s a gradual process.

有一些创伤性事件会产生重大影响，但我们将讨论的许多事态发展可能看起来或感觉像是在某个特定时刻，政府或军队的结构方式发生了这些发展或变化，但实际上这是一个渐进的过程。

Exactly.

确切地。

And so that’s the tension we have to be constantly dancing with.

这就是我们必须不断应对的紧张气氛。

Yeah, so as historians, this is a point of method, and it’s very important.

是的，所以作为历史学家，这是一个方法点，而且非常重要。

12:21 There are moments when, like, individuals with a great deal of power make choices that impact everybody else and have, you know, long-term consequences downstream.

有时，拥有巨大权力的个人会做出影响其他所有人的选择，并对下游产生长期影响。

Constantine’s conversion to Christianity, for example, right?

例如，君士坦丁皈依基督教，对吧？

Not something that anybody could have or did predict.

不是任何人都可以拥有或预测到的。

Okay.

好的。

Otherwise, most of the developments that we identify by specific dates, like you mentioned 395, the division of the eastern and the western empires, those are conventional dates that we use to actually capture what is in fact a much longer process.

除此之外，我们通过具体日期确定的大多数发展，就像你提到的395年，东西方帝国的分裂，这些都是传统的日期，我们用它们来实际捕捉实际上是一个更长的过程。

There was no split between the two halves.

两半之间没有分裂。

It was one among many allocations of jurisdiction to, like, one son and another son in the east and the west.

这是对东部和西部的一个儿子和另一个儿子的众多管辖权分配之一。

13:09 The two halves were subsequently reunited, then they kind of divided again among different emperors.

这两部分随后重新结合，然后又在不同的皇帝手中再次分裂。

It’s just a process, and so we sometimes use fixed dates for what is in fact a process.

这只是一个过程，因此我们有时会使用固定日期来表示实际上是一个过程。

Or for 476, the fall of the Western Empire, that’s just the last date.

或者对于 476 年，即西罗马帝国的灭亡，这只是最后一个日期。

It’s actually a very long process that took decades.

这实际上是一个非常漫长的过程，需要几十年的时间。

Right?

正确的？

So that’s just something to keep in mind, that sometimes we’re talking about processes, sometimes we’re talking about very discrete events with long-term consequences.

所以要记住这一点，有时我们谈论的是流程，有时我们谈论的是具有长期后果的非常离散的事件。

Yeah.

是的。

Maybe an impossible question for a Roman state that lasted over 2,200 years, but is there a kind of through line, a thread, a soul that runs through the entire history of the Roman Empire?

对于一个延续了2200多年的罗马国家来说，这也许是一个不可能的问题，但是否有一种贯穿整个罗马帝国历史的主线、一根线、一个灵魂呢？

13:37 As you said, it’s a slow transformation and evolution.

正如你所说，这是一个缓慢的转变和演变。

But if we dare call the whole thing Roman, Rome, the Roman state—

但如果我们敢称整个事物为罗马、罗马、罗马国家——

Yes

是的

…

……

14:00 is there some aspect, some characteristics that run through the whole thing?

是否有某些方面、某些特征贯穿整个事情？

I think so, yes.

我想是的，是的。

14:05 By the way, you know the metaphor of the Ship of Theseus?

顺便问一下，你知道忒修斯之船的比喻吗？

Okay.

好的。

So in case the audience doesn’t know it, this is when there’s a ship, and it’s, you know, at sea, and over time, like, every component of that ship is replaced with some other component, so that by the end of the story, it has none of the original parts.

所以，以防万一观众不知道，这是有一艘船的时候，你知道，它在海上，随着时间的推移，那艘船的每个部件都被其他部件取代，所以到故事结束时，它已经没有原来的部件了。

But it’s, like, in a certain sense still that ship because of the story, right?

但从某种意义上说，这艘船仍然是因为这个故事，对吧？

The…

该…

Okay.

好的。

So Roman history is different from, let’s say, Greek history or Christian history, right?

那么罗马历史不同于希腊历史或基督教历史，对吧？

Christian history is the story of a religion.

基督教历史是宗教的故事。

It can be in any country, among any ethnic group.

它可以在任何国家、任何种族群体中。

It’s here, there, right?

在这里，那里，对吗？

It’s everywhere.

它无处不在。

But you still have histories of Christianity.

但你仍然有基督教的历史。

It’s the same with, say, Greek culture—

比如说，希腊文化也是如此——

14:48 …

……

or your Greek literature, right?

或者你的希腊文学，对吗？

It’s not a function of a particular state.

它不是特定状态的函数。

Ancient Greeks were famously never united in a state.

众所周知，古希腊人从来没有统一过一个国家。

But it’s people who culturally accept that tradition as their kind of elite prestige culture and engage with Homer and Philo- and Plato and so forth.

但人们在文化上接受这种传统作为他们的精英声望文化，并与荷马、斐罗和柏拉图等人交往。

And they can be anywhere.

他们可以在任何地方。

Roman history is not like that.

罗马历史并非如此。

Roman history is very specifically the history of a state or a political community.

罗马历史非常具体地是一个国家或一个政治共同体的历史。

And so this is the community of the Roman people, the Roman citizens.

这就是罗马人民、罗马公民的共同体。

And it is in gradual evolution, but at no point is there a rupture in that history such that its members would ever think that something dramatic had changed, and that they’re no longer part of that story.

它是在逐渐演变的，但历史上从来没有出现过断裂，以至于其成员会认为发生了戏剧性的变化，并且他们不再是那个故事的一部分。

15:33 So in the same way as the, as the ship I just mentioned, in other words, it’s the narrative that you tell about it where the changes that take place to it make sense only when you see them within the context of that story.

因此，就像我刚才提到的那艘船一样，换句话说，它是你讲述的故事，只有当你在故事的背景下看到它们时，它所发生的变化才有意义。

It’s the same with Roman history.

罗马历史也是如此。

Yes, there are changes.

是的，有变化。

Like, eventually everything changes.

就像，最终一切都会改变。

But it happens so gradually that it doesn’t seem that way to anyone living in it.

但它发生得如此缓慢，以至于生活在其中的人似乎都不是这样的。

And so the narrative of the history of the Roman people is what holds all of this together.

因此，罗马人民的历史叙述将这一切联系在一起。

How important is it that, so you mentioned Greek culture.

这有多重要，所以你提到了希腊文化。

16:02 So a lot of my friends who are Greek are extremely proud of being Greek.

所以我的很多希腊朋友都为自己是希腊人而感到非常自豪。

There’s certain cultures that are proud.

有些文化是令人自豪的。

Sure.

当然。

And it’s not a momentary ephemeral thing.

这不是一个短暂的事情。

16:13 It feels like a thing that has lasted for many generations.

感觉就像是一件已经持续了好几代人的事情。

And so that is an engine that propagates through time that carries that culture forward.

因此，这是一个随着时间传播、推动文化前进的引擎。

And so does a similar thing apply for the Roman Empire in a different way?

那么类似的事情是否以不同的方式适用于罗马帝国呢？

Maybe ’cause you say it’s a political kind of community, that means a set of ideals.

也许因为你说这是一个政治类型的社区，这意味着一套理想。

And we’ll talk about, because those ideals become even more concretized and explicit, I think, through the East Roman Empire, because one of the things you talk about is that the citizens of the empire are kind of all connected, that they are-

我们会谈论，因为我认为，通过东罗马帝国，这些理想变得更加具体和明确，因为你谈论的一件事是帝国的公民都是相互联系的，他们是——

16:53 …

……

engaged in this whole sort of machinery.

从事这整类机械工作。

Anyway, that’s a complicated way of asking, is, is there some elements that Greek pride, dare I speak, is there some kind of Roman pride that propagates the thing?

不管怎样，这是一个复杂的问题，我敢说，是否有一些希腊自豪感的元素，是否有某种罗马自豪感在传播这种东西？

Oh, there totally is.

噢，完全有。

17:06 You can find authors and historical agents who definitely display this or talk about it.

你可以找到明确展示或谈论这一点的作者和历史代理人。

But we don’t wanna make that the center of the story or the basis for any analysis because…

但我们不想将其作为故事的中心或任何分析的基础，因为……

So what you’re observing in your Greek friends is also the result of modern nation building, is it’s the result of modern systems education, and sort of national identities, and these are fostered and created through all kinds of media and institutions.

所以你在希腊朋友身上看到的也是现代国家建设的结果，是现代系统教育和某种民族认同的结果，而这些都是通过各种媒体和机构培育和创造的。

It’s, it’s just a different situation altogether.

是的，这只是完全不同的情况。

What you find in ancient republics or medieval states is more something like a consensus to be ruled, to be, to rule and to be ruled in this particular political community.

你在古代共和国或中世纪国家中发现的更像是在这个特定的政治共同体中被统治、存在、统治和被统治的共识。

Now, some members of it may definitely, and in fact did have this kind of pride.

现在，它的一些成员肯定也确实有这样的骄傲。

17:54 I’ll give you an example.

我给你举个例子。

So there’s an ambassador in the sixth century, and he’s concluding a deal with the Persians.

六世纪有一位大使，他正在与波斯人达成协议。

And you know, the Persians are skeptical ’cause, you know, Romans can’t always be trusted.

你知道，波斯人持怀疑态度，因为罗马人并不总是值得信任。

But this guy says to them, he says, “And let me just tell you, you’re making a deal here with the Romans.

但这个人对他们说，“让我告诉你们，你们正在与罗马人达成协议。

The Romans.

罗马人。

The name should say it all.” Like, you, okay, and you get a sense that this is, he’s expressing a certain pride in, like, being a bearer of the Roman tradition and speaking for the emperors and the Roman Empire.

这个名字应该说明一切。”就像，你，好吧，你会感觉到，他表达了某种自豪感，比如，作为罗马传统的承载者，为皇帝和罗马帝国说话。

I mean, that’s, for him, this was something very, very momentous.

我的意思是，对他来说，这是非常非常重要的事情。

You find these kinds of examples, so these people exist.

你会发现这类例子，所以这些人是存在的。

But I wouldn’t wanna make that the basis for like an analysis of how the society works as a whole.

但我不想以此为基础来分析整个社会如何运作。

18:34 For the most part, it was something like a consensus where, you know, subjects or citizens, however you wanna call them, they agree to, um- Let’s say be taxed and be ruled by political authorities because of what they get in return, and there’s this kind of understanding of a mutual set of responsibilities.

在很大程度上，这就像一种共识，你知道，臣民或公民，无论你想怎么称呼他们，他们都同意，嗯-比方说，因为他们得到的回报而被征税并受到政治当局的统治，并且对一系列相互责任有这种理解。

And my concern, among other things, is to try to explain how this society held together for so long.

除其他事项外，我关心的是试图解释这个社会是如何长期团结在一起的。

Pride, yes, among some people, definitely.

骄傲，是的，在某些人中，绝对如此。

You find it in the sources.

您可以在来源中找到它。

But sources are, texts are written by literate, usually elites.

但消息来源称，文本是由有文化的人（通常是精英）撰写的。

So this is a small part of the population.

所以这只是人口的一小部分。

We can’t automatically extend their attitudes to everybody else.

我们不能自动将他们的态度延伸到其他人。

19:18 So in dealing with everyone else, we have to work with different kinds of materials, different kinds of assumptions.

因此，在与其他人打交道时，我们必须使用不同种类的材料、不同种类的假设。

We can’t just posit that they’re just proud of being Roman.

我们不能简单地假设他们只是为自己是罗马人而感到自豪。

They could have been.

他们本来可以的。

We don’t know that, though.

但我们不知道这一点。

We can see other sorts of things about them.

我们还可以看到关于他们的其他事情。

Like, for example, did they pay their taxes?

例如，他们缴税了吗？

Did they try to rebel and leave the empire?

他们是否试图叛乱并离开帝国？

So those are the kinds of things that, that, that I look for.

这些就是我所寻找的东西。

Pride is one component, but there could be other explanations and factors that explain what motivates a soldier to defend the capital, for example.

例如，自豪感是一个组成部分，但可能还有其他解释和因素来解释士兵保卫首都的动机。

19:37 Like, what motivates a particular person to pay the taxes.

比如，是什么促使特定的人纳税。

And then this is, this is something that we’ll definitely talk about.

然后，这是我们肯定会谈论的事情。

But just to linger at the big picture, if the Romans from the different periods met, how different would they be from each other?

但从大局来看，如果不同时期的罗马人相遇，他们之间会有多大的不同呢？

Like, if I, if I brought to you…

就像，如果我，如果我给你带来……

This is one of those, you know, there’s like- …

这是其中之一，你知道，有这样的——……

blind taste tests you can do with food.

您可以对食物进行盲味测试。

Pepsi and Coke.

百事可乐和可口可乐。

Pepsi and Coke.

百事可乐和可口可乐。

20:16 If I brought you a Roman from the kingdom period, the republic period, the early imperial period-

如果我给你带来一个来自王国时期、共和时期、早期帝国时期的罗马人——

I mean, I get asked this in a, in a, in a much more radical form, which is like if you take someone from, like, around 1453 who’s a Roman and a subject of this Roman, and compare, and, and, you know, compare him or have him meet, you know, in your imagination with someone from the ancient republic.

我的意思是，我被以一种更激进的形式问到，就像你把一个来自 1453 年左右的罗马人和这个罗马的臣民进行比较，并且，你知道，比较他，或者让他在你的想象中与来自古代共和国的人见面。

20:27 Like, how-

就像，如何——

20:42 …

……

could they find any kind of agreement on, on what it means to be Roman and recognize each other as belonging to that polity?

他们能否就身为罗马人的意义达成某种共识，并承认彼此属于该政体？

This, this is a very difficult thing to…

这、这是一件非常困难的事情……

Like, now, I can point to a number of things that they would find eventually.

就像现在，我可以指出他们最终会发现的一些东西。

And, you know, if you told them, “Yo, you’re both Romans, you’re both from this long history, now you have to find, you know, what you have in common,” I think they could find things.

而且，你知道，如果你告诉他们，“哟，你们都是罗马人，你们都来自这段悠久的历史，现在你必须找到，你知道，你们的共同点，”我认为他们可以找到一些东西。

But before we talk about those, if, if you wanna get into it, let’s just say that the question can even be posed about Romans who live at the same time.

但在我们讨论这些之前，如果你想深入探讨，我们可以说这个问题甚至可以针对生活在同一时期的罗马人提出。

21:16 I mean, if you take a senator from the age of Cicero and someone from the slums of Rome, who’s maybe the son of a slave who was brought from the East by some general a generation ago, and put them in a room and say, “Now, you discuss.

我的意思是，如果你把一位西塞罗时代的参议员和一位来自罗马贫民窟的人（他可能是上一代将军从东方带来的奴隶的儿子）放在一个房间里说：“现在，你们讨论。

You, you’re both Romans.

你们，都是罗马人。

What do you have in common?” They might have trouble in coming up with something.

你们有什么共同点？”他们可能很难想出一些办法。

21:38 Right?

正确的？

So let’s not minimize the sheer diversity of experiences and sort of life experiences of Romans who are living at the same time.

因此，我们不要低估同时生活的罗马人的经历和生活经历的多样性。

The important thing is that a change is always happening, and from my standpoint this change is sort of cumulative, so it results in Greek-speaking Orthodox Christian Romans in Constantinople who at first sight might have little to do with Latin-speaking, you know, non-Christians or worshiping the ancient gods, Romans from a republic in Rome.

重要的是，变化总是在发生，从我的角度来看，这种变化是累积的，所以它导致君士坦丁堡讲希腊语的东正教基督教罗马人乍一看可能与讲拉丁语的非基督徒或崇拜古代诸神的罗马共和国没有什么关系。

And those are very, very different situations, and no doubt they would, they would look and seem foreign to each other, right?

这些都是非常非常不同的情况，毫无疑问，他们看起来彼此陌生，对吧？

22:20 The question is, why do we assume that someone like Hadrian, right, an emperor from the second century sort of a very cosmopolitan figure who travels around the empire with his Greek lover and, you know, writes poems and is, has a Greek beard and, you know, loves Greek culture and has much to do with someone from the Middle Republic who’s, you know, some warrior who’s chasing down cattle from the Samnites.

问题是，为什么我们会假设像哈德良这样的人，没错，一位来自二世纪的皇帝，是一个非常国际化的人物，他和他的希腊情人一起环游帝国，写诗，留着希腊胡须，热爱希腊文化，并且与来自中共和国的某个人有很大关系，他是一个追赶萨姆尼特人牛群的战士。

I mean, and yet the way we understand history is that, oh no, those belong together.

我的意思是，但我们理解历史的方式是，哦不，这些是一体的。

Hadrian and this ancient Roman from the fourth century BC.

哈德良和这位公元前四世纪的古罗马人。

But not Hadrian and someone, you know, an emperor a few centuries later who’s just like him, bilingual in Greek and Latin, who’s-

但哈德良和某人，你知道，几个世纪后的一位皇帝，他和他一样，会说希腊语和拉丁语，他是——

23:06 …

……

kinda cosmopolitan, who, you know, reads the same stuff, because we posit this rupture between Roman and Byzantine.

有点国际化，你知道，他读同样的东西，因为我们假设罗马和拜占庭之间存在这种断裂。

One of the ways we can try to analyze this is, for example, looking at a very specific role in society across time.

例如，我们可以尝试分析这一点的方法之一是，研究不同时期社会中非常具体的角色。

23:15 So we can look at soldiers, how they solve violence, for example.

例如，我们可以看看士兵，他们如何解决暴力问题。

That’s one way.

这是一种方式。

So you’re making me realize that we can just take 1,000 different professions and positions in society and really specifically look at what the experience of the world was like.

所以你让我意识到，我们可以选择社会上 1000 种不同的职业和职位，真正具体地观察世界的经历是什么样的。

And so one of them is the view on violence across time.

其中之一就是对跨时间暴力的看法。

And, and then the other is the view on the role of the government- …

然后，另一个是对政府角色的看法——……

across time.

跨越时间。

That’s an excellent way of putting it.

这是一个很好的表达方式。

23:57 So take soldiers, for example.

以士兵为例。

They swear an oath.

他们立下誓言。

Right?

正确的？

Now, we don’t have the oath for every given period.

现在，我们没有针对每个特定时期的宣誓。

We have some approximations of it, some hints of what it contained, but we know that Roman soldiers swore an oath, like, throughout all of the centuries of the empire.

我们对它有一些近似，对它所包含的内容有一些暗示，但我们知道罗马士兵在帝国的各个世纪里都宣誓过。

Sometimes they might add, like, a Christian formula to it.

有时他们可能会添加基督教公式之类的东西。

Sometime before that, not.

在那之前的某个时候，不是。

But they swore basically to protect the republic or depending on what term they used or the empire or the emperor.

但他们基本上发誓要保护共和国，或者取决于他们使用什么术语，或者帝国或皇帝。

And this is something that they would have recognized very quickly.

他们很快就会认识到这一点。

Like, if, if they met each other over time and said, “Hey, what was your oath like?” And they recited it, this would have made much sense to them, right?

就像，如果，如果他们随着时间的推移见面并说，“嘿，你的誓言是什么样的？”他们背诵了这句话，这对他们来说很有意义，对吧？

24:41 Or take, for example, a woman who runs a business, right?

或者以一位经营企业的女性为例，对吧？

From any century of the empire.

来自帝国的任何一个世纪。

It, it would have been, especially the later you go, the, the more so, that this woman is enabled to do this by virtue of Roman law.

尤其是越晚，根据罗马法，这个女人就越有能力这样做。

Of certain, you know, Roman law of property and inheritance and, and marriage, but also regulations regarding who can do what and what kinds of properties women can handle and under what circumstances.

当然，你知道，罗马法关于财产、继承和婚姻，而且还有关于谁可以做什么、女性可以处理哪些财产以及在什么情况下的规定。

This is something that Roman women had in common that many other cultures did not.

这是罗马女性所具有的许多其他文化所没有的共同点。

So I’ll give you an example.

所以我给你举个例子。

So for example, in the 10th, 11th century, there are Jewish women who live in the Eastern Roman Empire-

比如说，在10、11世纪，有一些犹太妇女生活在东罗马帝国——

25:26 …

……

who realize that they have more rights in Roman courts than in rabbinical ones, and they take their disputes to the Roman courts.

他们意识到他们在罗马法庭比在拉比法庭拥有更多的权利，因此他们将纠纷提交给罗马法庭。

Now, the thing is that for the Romans, these are property matters- …

现在，问题是，对于罗马人来说，这些都是财产问题——……

not religious matters.

不是宗教问题。

But for the rabbis, these are religious matters.

但对于拉比来说，这些都是宗教问题。

But the Roman courts trump the Jewish courts- …

但罗马法庭胜过犹太法庭——……

in the empire, right?

在帝国，对吗？

And so you end up with a situation where Jewish women have more rights- …

所以你最终会遇到这样的情况：犹太妇女拥有更多权利——……

than Jewish women do elsewhere, because there Roman law is not operative.

与其他地方的犹太妇女相比，因为罗马法在那里不起作用。

And there you go.

就这样吧。

Right?

正确的？

Like, these things matter, right?

就像，这些事情很重要，对吧？

And that’s a function of imperial law.

这是帝国法律的职能。

And this, this would be an interesting actually interplay between the law and religious institutions- …

这实际上是法律和宗教机构之间有趣的相互作用——……

26:02 Throughout the East- …

整个东方——...

Roman Empire.

罗马帝国。

So you argue that even though the personality of the various emperors varied, as we’ll talk about, and as they’re often venerated, celebrated, criticized, talked about, the late Roman Empire was projecting a persona to its citizens that was consistent throughout its history.

所以你认为，尽管正如我们将要讨论的那样，各个皇帝的个性各不相同，而且他们经常受到尊敬、庆祝、批评和谈论，但晚期罗马帝国向其公民投射了一个贯穿其整个历史的一致形象。

Can you describe what you mean by this and describe the different detailed characteristics of this persona?

您能描述一下您的意思并描述这个角色的不同详细特征吗？

Yes.

是的。

26:36 So this persona, it’s what the governments or the emperor, the court, and the spokesman, the bureaucracy want their subjects to think this whole thing is about.

所以这个角色，就是政府或皇帝、法庭、发言人、官僚机构希望他们的臣民认为这整件事的原因。

Like, how is power being used, why, and for whom, right?

比如，如何使用权力、为什么使用权力以及为谁使用权力，对吧？

And they do so in laws that they promulgate throughout the empire.

他们通过在整个帝国颁布的法律来做到这一点。

Sometimes they have these laws read in church, for example, or posted publicly.

例如，有时他们会在教堂宣读这些法律，或公开发布这些法律。

They’re definitely eager to have them communicated to as many people as possible.

他们肯定渴望将这些想法传达给尽可能多的人。

But they’re also a function of imperial rhetoric so the way you praise an emperor, the way you talk about an emperor.

但它们也是帝国修辞的一个功能，所以你赞美皇帝的方式，你谈论皇帝的方式。

You find this language in petitions, so this is a hugely important glue for this society, is that anyone could basically petition the authorities for let’s just say just about anything.

你可以在请愿书中找到这种语言，所以这对这个社会来说是非常重要的粘合剂，任何人基本上都可以向当局请愿，让我们随便说任何事情。

27:30 That’s not technically true, but there’s a lot of petitioning going on.

这在技术上是不正确的，但有很多请愿活动正在进行。

So, you know, if you think something’s wrong or you’ve been treated unjustly, you can petition local officials, even imperial officials.

所以，你知道，如果你觉得有什么问题或者你受到了不公正的对待，你可以向地方官员，甚至朝廷官员请愿。

You can petition the emperor, you can…

你可以向皇帝请愿，你可以……

Right?

对吗？

And the expectation is that that petition will be read, addressed, and answered.

我们期望该请愿书能够被阅读、处理和答复。

It might not be answered in the way that you want, but it will be answered.

它可能不会以你想要的方式得到答复，但它会得到答复。

And those responses contain this language also, right?

这些回复也包含这种语言，对吧？

So these are the different media through which the emperors are broadcasting this persona, and that persona is what?

那么这些就是皇帝们传播这个人物形象的不同媒体，那个人物形象是什么？

Basically, that the authorities are responsive to the needs of their subjects, that they are often accountable.

基本上，当局对其臣民的需求做出回应，他们往往负有责任。

28:10 In other words, they understand that they are exercising public power, and that their mandate is to exercise it solely for the benefit of their subjects.

换句话说，他们明白自己正在行使公共权力，并且他们的任务是仅为其臣民的利益而行使权力。

They keep saying this.

他们一直这么说。

So renouncing any kind of private interest.

因此放弃任何形式的私人利益。

In other words, “We’re not doing this for our benefit,” say the authorities.

换句话说，“我们这样做并不是为了我们自己的利益”，当局表示。

“We’re doing this for your benefit.” Also that they’re proactive.

“我们这样做是为了你的利益。”而且他们很主动。

So the emperors are constantly saying that, “We’re planning ahead.

所以皇帝们经常说：“我们正在提前计划。

We, we’re trying to foresee what problems you might have, and we are solving them before you experience them.”

我们正在努力预见您可能遇到的问题，并在您遇到问题之前解决它们。”

28:46 And that they are also working very hard.

他们也非常努力地工作。

So hardworking.

这么勤奋。

In fact, one of the cliches that they keep using is sleepless.

事实上，他们一直使用的陈词滥调之一就是失眠。

The emperors keep saying that, “I’m losing sleep over this.

皇帝们总是说：“我为此失眠了。

I’m not sleeping at night because I’m just worrying so much about your problems and how to solve them.” Justinian, for example, was publicly known as the sleepless emperor, and not because he was a demon whose head floated around in the palace on its own, which some people

我晚上睡不着觉，因为我太担心你的问题以及如何解决它们。”例如，查士丁尼被公认为不眠皇帝，并不是因为他是一个头在宫殿里自行漂浮的恶魔，有些人认为他是一个恶魔。

That’s the thing?

是这样的吗？

It was a thing, yes.

是的，这是一件事。

Okay.

好的。

That’s a whole thing.

这是一整件事。

But sleepless in terms of worked so hard- …

但辛辛苦苦工作却睡不着觉——……

29:15 there’s no time to sleep.

没有时间睡觉。

He was a workaholic.

他是一个工作狂。

29:19 That is conceded by even his enemies.

甚至他的敌人也承认这一点。

All night he was up just, just hauling officials in at any old hour to talk about whatever, you know, wars and architecture and laws and religion and theology and whatever.

整个晚上他都没有睡，只是在任何时候把官员拉进来谈论任何事情，你知道，战争、建筑、法律、宗教和神学等等。

So the emperors are projecting this image, right?

所以皇帝们正在投射这个形象，对吗？

So that’s what I call the persona.

这就是我所说的人物角色。

Tireless effort to work on behalf of subjects, to do so responsibly, to be responsive and accountable.

坚持不懈地努力代表主体开展工作，负责任地开展工作，积极响应并负责。

In other words, if some of my officials breaks the law or oppresses you, I’m giving you instruments, like legal instruments, by which to hold them to account.

换句话说，如果我的一些官员违法或压迫你，我会给你工具，比如法律工具，让你追究他们的责任。

29:59 So that’s the persona.

这就是人物。

It’s very consistent and I think it’s part of the mechanism of tying the society together.

这是非常一致的，我认为这是将社会联系在一起的机制的一部分。

In other words, if subjects think that their emperors are like this, right, they’re more likely to agree to the consensus of essentially paying taxes.

换句话说，如果臣民认为他们的皇帝是这样的，对吧，他们更有可能同意本质上纳税的共识。

And you draw this distinction between rhetoric and action, what the authorities say and what they actually do.

你可以区分言辞和行动、当局所说的和他们实际做的。

30:17 So when you say persona in the modern times, some of that could be reframed as propaganda- …

因此，当你说到现代的人物角色时，其中一些可以被重新定义为宣传——……

for example.

例如。

And propaganda implies that the rhetoric, that there’s a big gap between the rhetoric and the action.

宣传意味着言辞，言辞和行动之间存在很大差距。

And one of the things you said you took away from reading Machiavelli is that we should judge people not by what they say, but by what they do.

你说你从阅读马基雅维利中学到的一件事是，我们应该根据人们所做的而不是他们所说的来判断他们。

So how much of the Roman Empire’s government of what they espoused was merely rhetoric, and how much was true in how they acted?

那么，罗马帝国政府所拥护的政策有多少只是说说而已，而他们的行动又有多少是真实的呢？

Yes.

是的。

30:56 This is a key lesson I took from reading Machiavelli, and I found this a very insightful way of thinking about politics, and I would recommend that anybody kind of practice this way of looking at the world, right?

这是我从阅读马基雅维利中学到的一个重要教训，我发现这是一种非常有洞察力的政治思考方式，我建议任何人都练习这种看待世界的方式，对吗？

People and states and, you know, powerful people can say anything they want to.

人民、国家以及有权势的人可以说任何他们想说的话。

At the end of the day what matters is what they actually do.

归根结底，重要的是他们实际做了什么。

And this doesn’t mean that what they say is irrelevant, even if it’s discordant with what they do.

这并不意味着他们所说的无关紧要，即使这与他们所做的不一致。

But nevertheless in the case of the East Roman state, my research suggests that the emperors and the authorities were generally sincere in what they said.

但无论如何，就东罗马国家而言，我的研究表明，皇帝和当局的言论总体上是真诚的。

In other words, I have found that they generally did what they said they were going to do overall.

换句话说，我发现他们总体上都会按照他们所说的去做。

Not perfectly, obviously.

显然，并不完美。

31:48 And of course, these are human beings we’re talking about.

当然，我们谈论的是人类。

The, right, the human societies, there was a lot of, you know, corruption, and you name it.

对，人类社会，有很多，你知道的，腐败，凡是你能想到的。

Abuse— …

虐待——……

of course.

当然。

Of course there is.

当然有。

But overall, I think that there was a sufficient level of understanding that the emperors are in fact doing this, and they were actually incentivized to do this.

但总的来说，我认为人们对皇帝实际上正在这样做有足够的了解，并且他们实际上受到激励这样做。

We can talk about how.

我们可以谈谈如何做。

Because they were also in a pretty vulnerable situation too, so they needed their subjects to be relatively content on this front.

因为他们也处于相当脆弱的境地，所以他们需要他们的对象在这方面相对满意。

Isn’t this surprising to you?

这对你来说不奇怪吗？

32:18 So, you know, from the outsider point of view, Roman emperors, even in the East Roman Empire, technically have a lot of power.

所以，你知道，从外人的角度来看，罗马皇帝，即使是在东罗马帝国，技术上也拥有很大的权力。

You can even say in some cases absolute power, and yet they seem to be awfully worried …

甚至在某些情况下可以说是绝对的权力，但他们似乎很担心……

…

……

To make everybody in the empire happy.

让帝国的所有人都幸福。

What explains that?

这怎么解释呢？

Like what, what explains the small gap between rhetoric and action in the East Roman Empire?

比如，如何解释东罗马帝国言辞与行动之间的微小差距？

A number of things, but ultimately it is that there is no right to the throne.

有很多事情，但最终是没有王位的权利。

32:52 And this is a function of the Roman matrix of politics here.

这是罗马政治矩阵的一个功能。

In other words, so here’s a bit of a paradox.

换句话说，这有点悖论。

What we call the Roman Republic was the most imperialistic phase of Roman history.

我们所说的罗马共和国是罗马历史上最帝国主义的阶段。

Like this is when the Romans did most of their conquering.

就像罗马人完成大部分征服的时候一样。

What we call the empire is much less imperialistic in this way.

这样一来，我们所说的帝国就不再是帝国主义的了。

That’s much more defensive in its approach, right?

这在方法上更具防御性，对吧？

And yet our terms are a little mismatched in that way.

然而我们的条款在这方面有点不匹配。

The empire is more a function of that it has an emperor rather than it is engaged in imperialism.

帝国更多地是因为它有一个皇帝，而不是它从事帝国主义。

And that emperor emerged out of the republic.

这位皇帝是从共和国中诞生的。

33:40 But emerged out of the republic in a very strange way.

但以一种非常奇怪的方式脱离了共和国。

In other words, not as a dynasty that created the state.

换句话说，不是作为一个创建国家的王朝。

So for example, if you think of the Ottoman Empire, many other empires, they…

举例来说，如果你想到奥斯曼帝国和许多其他帝国，他们……

The whole thing existed because this dynasty engaged in conquest and- …

整个事情的存在是因为这个王朝正在进行征服并且——……

was successful in creating the state, and so the dynasty was like at the heart of the state.

建国成功，所以王朝就如同国家的中心。

But that’s not at all the case in the Roman Empire.

但在罗马帝国，情况却并非如此。

The emperor is a figure who emerged within a republic, and in order to create peace after the civil wars, those emperors had to, for a long time, kind of pretend that they were not what they really were.

皇帝是一个在共和国内出现的人物，为了在内战后创造和平，这些皇帝不得不在很长一段时间内假装自己不是真实的自己。

34:19 By basically, you know, continuing to flatter the idea of a republic that is, you know, that has a first citizen maybe.

基本上，你知道，继续奉承共和国的想法，你知道，也许有第一公民。

“Oh, no, no, I’m not a king.

“噢，不，不，我不是国王。

I’m just, I have this office and that office and that office.” “Whatever the Senate has given me.” Now, we understand that’s a facade, but the fact that they had to create this facade at all is very important.

我只是，我有这个办公室、那个办公室、那个办公室。” “无论参议院给我什么。”现在，我们知道这是一个外观，但事实上他们必须创建这个外观，这一点非常重要。

Can we actually just linger on that?

我们真的可以就此徘徊吗？

34:40 I mean, how much of this…

我的意思是，这有多少……

‘Cause you said they had to create this facade.

因为你说他们必须创造这个外观。

Did Augustus, who started the whole thing, the first emperor of Rome, did he have to act that way?

整个事情的始作俑者、罗马第一位皇帝奥古斯都必须这样做吗？

‘Cause he kept acting like he’s not an absolute- …

因为他一直表现得好像他不是一个绝对的人……

monarch, and he could have gone hardcore, destroy the Senate, just full hardcore rule, dictatorship.

君主，他本可以变得铁杆，摧毁参议院，完全铁杆统治，独裁。

Well, then how, how does he govern then?

那他怎么治呢？

So, so he wants to be an effective governor, And he also wants to not be overthrown.

所以，所以他想成为一个有效的统治者，而且他也不想被推翻。

Exactly.

确切地。

35:16 Because, you know, just because you ended one civil war doesn’t mean that there’s not going to be another.

因为，你知道，仅仅因为你结束了一场内战并不意味着不会再有另一场内战。

You have to create a consensus such that people don’t want to have another civil war.

你必须达成共识，让人们不想再发生内战。

If he did what you said, which he in theory could have done, but that would’ve just led to more wars, right?

如果他按照你说的去做，理论上他也可以这么做，但这只会导致更多的战争，对吗？

So the problem is that the emperors, even those who come to power through violence, they can’t prevent other people from trying to come to power through violence because like I said, no one has a right to the throne.

所以问题是，皇帝，即使是那些通过暴力上台的皇帝，他们也无法阻止其他人试图通过暴力上台，因为就像我说的，没有人有权利登上王位。

We should also say one more thing where, dare I carefully say this, but it seems like riots and civil wars is a feature, not a bug of the system.

我们还应该多说一件事，我敢说，但似乎骚乱和内战是系统的一个功能，而不是一个错误。

35:45 This is a different thing that we have to the modern day, is because the threat of a civil war, a violent civil war where you overthrow the government and there’s just a lot of- …

这与现代的情况有所不同，因为内战的威胁，一场暴力的内战，你会推翻政府，而且有很多——……

death and struggle for power is always a threat.

死亡和权力斗争始终是一种威胁。

That’s another incentive that, I guess the stick, not the carrot, but the stick for the emperor to behave.

这是另一个激励因素，我猜是大棒，不是胡萝卜，而是皇帝行为的大棒。

Yes.

是的。

36:22 It’s the main one.

这是主要的。

In other words, just take the thousand years that I study.

换句话说，就拿我研究的千年来说吧。

There’s something like 120 civil wars.

大约有 120 场内战。

Now, these are usually very swift.

现在，这些通常非常快。

They’re over quickly, and they’re never about ideology.

它们很快就结束了，而且从来都与意识形态无关。

So they’re not like modern civil wars.

所以它们不像现代内战。

Right?

正确的？

It’s not about slavery or the rights of kings or whatever.

这与奴隶制或国王的权利或其他什么无关。

No, no, no.

不，不，不。

They’re solely about who has the power.

他们只关心谁拥有权力。

All sides have the same ideology.

各方都有相同的意识形态。

They talk about, you know, the responsibility of government in the same way, right?

他们以同样的方式谈论政府的责任，对吗？

They’re just competing over who’s the best man to do the job.

他们只是在竞争谁是最适合这项工作的人。

Right?

正确的？

And so once you have that situation…

所以一旦你遇到这种情况......

And it might not be a civil war, it could be a palace coup, it could be a kind of fighting in the capital-

而且可能不是内战，可能是宫廷政变，也可能是京城的某种战斗——

37:06 …

……

something like that.

类似的事情。

Once everyone’s taken their side and you have a winner, that’s the emperor and you often overthrow the previous regime.

一旦每个人都站在自己一边，你就有了胜利者，那就是皇帝，你经常会推翻以前的政权。

I’ll give you some statistics.

我会给你一些统计数据。

Something like 46% of the emperors of Constantinople are overthrown through violence.

君士坦丁堡大约有 46% 的皇帝是通过暴力推翻的。

46%.

46%。

And that’s almost half.

这几乎是一半。

37:25 Right?

正确的？

So that’s a huge, that’s a huge number, which means that every emperor is vulnerable and insecure, and they know it, right?

所以这是一个巨大的数字，这意味着每个皇帝都是脆弱和不安全的，他们知道这一点，对吗？

So what they have to do is make sure that that doesn’t happen to them, and the way to do that is not by arresting and executing everybody you think might be a threat or just generally behaving like a, you know, a Caligula or a Nero.

所以他们要做的就是确保这种事不会发生在他们身上，而做到这一点的方法不是逮捕并处决所有你认为可能构成威胁的人，或者只是表现得像卡里古拉或尼禄。

That will just get you killed.

那只会害死你。

Like, they know this.

就像，他们知道这一点。

So the best way to avoid that fate is to actually do the things that will make people happy so that they don’t support a rebel if a rebel decides to appear.

因此，避免这种命运的最好方法是实际做一些能让人们高兴的事情，这样，如果叛乱分子决定出现，他们就不会支持叛乱分子。

And sometimes rebels would appear.

有时还会出现叛逆者。

There’s a kind of convention in Constantinople, like if you…

君士坦丁堡有一种惯例，就像如果你……

38:06 Sometimes you think, “Hmm, that emperor’s pretty unpopular and I think I can overthrow him.” What you would do is you would march down the center boulevard- …

有时你会想，“嗯，那个皇帝很不受欢迎，我想我可以推翻他。”你要做的就是沿着中央大道游行——……

And, you know, you’d have your people just call the populace of Constantinople out to rally, to you know, maybe go to Hagia Sophia, the church, and just create a big crowd and call for the deposition of the emperor and, you know, maybe that would- And sometimes it did, and sometimes it didn’t, and the rebel or wannabe rebel would sort of proceed down the, the Mese, the boulevard, and people would just gradually just disappear, and then he’d be left alone- …

而且，你知道，你会让你的人民召集君士坦丁堡的民众集会，你知道，也许去圣索菲亚大教堂，然后聚集一大群人，要求罢黜皇帝，你知道，也许会——有时会，有时不会，叛乱者或想要叛乱的人会沿着梅塞大道前进，人们会逐渐消失，然后他就会独自一人—— ……

and go up to Hagia Sophia as, as seeking asylum.

并前往圣索菲亚大教堂寻求庇护。

Right?

正确的？

So that’s a bid.

这就是一个出价。

38:49 That’s someone making a bid for the throne, and it just goes disastrously bad.

那是有人在争夺王位，而结果却是灾难性的。

Other times, the people come out ’cause they hate the emperor, and they drag the emperor out and cut his nose off or whatever.

其他时候，人们出来是因为他们讨厌皇帝，他们把皇帝拖出去，割掉他的鼻子或者其他什么。

So emperors are constantly trying to prevent that from happening, and the best way to do that is through goodwill.

因此，皇帝们不断地试图阻止这种情况的发生，而做到这一点的最好方法就是通过善意。

I’m trying to load in that kind of world ’cause it’s a different world than we live in today.

我试图进入那种世界，因为它与我们今天生活的世界不同。

Yes.

是的。

There’s a constant inner workings of policy development inside government.

政府内部不断有政策制定的内部运作。

Yes.

是的。

But the check on power is, like, literal, like, “We will murder you.”

但对权力的制衡，就像字面上的意思一样，“我们会谋杀你。”

Yes, it depends on the period.

是的，这取决于时期。

39:27 Sometimes murder you, sometimes blind you, sometimes cut your nose off, but there were periods-

有时会谋杀你，有时会弄瞎你，有时会割掉你的鼻子，但也有一些时期——

Thank you for the nuance.

谢谢你的细微差别。

…

……

39:35 No, there were periods that were more civilized.

不，有过更文明的时期。

We’ll just basically, you’ll get retired to a monastery.

基本上，你会退休到修道院。

Right.

正确的。

Okay.

好的。

39:40 You’re right.

你说得对。

So here’s what elections do.

这就是选举的作用。

Elections give a government a mandate for, I don’t know, four or five years, and during that period, you may be unpopular, but you’re legitimate, right, because of the institutions.

选举赋予政府为期四五年的授权，我不知道，在此期间，你可能不受欢迎，但由于制度的原因，你是合法的，对吧。

Whereas in Constantinople, we don’t have those kinds of institutions.

而在君士坦丁堡，我们没有这样的机构。

We have instead an ongoing referendum.

相反，我们正在进行一场全民公投。

We just call it a perpetual referendum, right?

我们称之为永久公投，对吗？

40:07 And in fact, the emperors are, are, they’re conducting opinion polls in a sense because they appear in public.

事实上，皇帝们在某种意义上是在进行民意调查，因为他们出现在公共场合。

When they appear in public, everyone is expected to cheer and chant acclamations, right, like slogans.

当他们出现在公共场合时，每个人都应该欢呼并高喊口号，对吧，就像口号一样。

Right?

正确的？

So you have 100,000 people in the Hippodrome all chanting, you know, “Worthy” or “Many years for you, Augustus” or something like this.

所以竞技场里有 100,000 个人都在高呼“值得”或“为你而战，奥古斯都”之类的口号。

And if that happens, it’s great.

如果这种情况发生，那就太好了。

But if you appear in the Hippodrome and people are, like, sullen or if the chanting is a bit tepid or if they’re booing, then you know something’s wrong, right?

但如果你出现在竞技场，人们闷闷不乐，或者口号有点不温不火，或者发出嘘声，那么你就知道出了什么问题，对吧？

So you gotta find out what’s wrong.

所以你必须找出问题所在。

It could be something like the grain supply is, is, you know, not working or whatever.

可能是粮食供应不正常或其他什么原因。

And so emperors are desperate to fix those problems.

因此，皇帝们迫切希望解决这些问题。

And the Hippodrome is this big gathering place in Constantinople, which I guess a lot of people gathered at and did this kind of cheering or not cheering based on policy and—

竞技场是君士坦丁堡的一个大型聚会场所，我猜很多人都聚集在那里，根据政策进行这种欢呼或不欢呼——

Yeah

是啊

…

……

41:01 and whether the emperor is popular or not.

以及皇帝是否受欢迎。

This was democracy.

这就是民主。

I apologize to use that term, but-

我很抱歉使用这个词，但是-

Yeah, yeah

是啊是啊

…

……

41:09 in our conception of what that means, because what do we mean by democracy in the modern day is that the people somehow have a connection to who leads and how they lead, and this is—the Hippodrome was that connection between the people and the leaders.

在我们对其含义的理解中，因为现代民主的含义是，人民在某种程度上与谁领导以及他们如何领导有联系，而这就是——竞技场就是人民和领导人之间的联系。

Yes.

是的。

41:26 Now, we can talk about modern democracy if you want.

现在，如果你愿意的话，我们可以谈论现代民主。

That’s a, I have my own views about- …

那是，我有我自己的看法——……

modern democracy and, you know, how it works and how it doesn’t and, anyway, whether it is democracy, in fact, ’cause there are other models of democracy, like-

现代民主，你知道，它是如何运作的，它是如何不运作的，无论如何，它是否是民主，事实上，因为还有其他民主模式，比如——

41:41 …

……

ancient Athenian democracy, which is a whole other thing.

古代雅典的民主则完全是另一回事。

But you’re right.

但你是对的。

So it’s not just in the Hippodrome.

所以这不仅仅是在竞技场。

It’s wherever people assemble in large numbers.

这是人们大量聚集的地方。

So this could be military mustering grounds, right?

所以这可能是军事集结地，对吗？

So the army.

所以军队。

The army is also the Roman people in a way, and in some cases, the most decisive part of it, right?

军队在某种程度上也是罗马人民，在某些情况下，也是罗马人民中最决定性的部分，对吗？

So if an army gathers together and they decide they want a different emperor, that’s serious, and that can happen out in the provinces too.

因此，如果一支军队聚集在一起，他们决定想要一位不同的皇帝，那就很严重了，这种情况也可能发生在各省。

That doesn’t necessarily have to happen in Constantinople.

这不一定必须发生在君士坦丁堡。

There’s also Hagia Sophia, so the people gather in the church, or they gather in public spaces like the Forum of Constantine.

还有圣索菲亚大教堂，所以人们聚集在教堂里，或者聚集在君士坦丁论坛这样的公共场所。

42:19 So this can happen anywhere where a large number of people can gather, and it’s, I don’t know if you wanna call it a democracy as such, but it is definitely a form of popular, let’s say, consultation and a testing of consensus.

所以这种情况可能发生在任何有很多人聚集的地方，我不知道你是否想称之为民主，但这绝对是一种大众的形式，比如说协商和共识的检验。

I’ll give you another example.

我再举一个例子。

So in the 1190s, the emperor—and it’s Alexius III—he’s being threatened by the German emperor.

因此，在 1190 年代，皇帝——亚历克修斯三世——受到了德国皇帝的威胁。

German emperor’s basically, “You, you, you pay me a bunch of money or I’ll invade.” Just straight up extortion.

德国皇帝基本上是，“你，你，你付我一大笔钱，否则我就入侵。”简直就是直接敲诈勒索。

And Alexius decides, “Okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna gather this money.

亚历克修斯决定，“好吧，我要去，我要去收集这笔钱。

I’m gonna impose these taxes.” And he gathers the people in the Hippodrome, and he says, “You know, we’re gonna have the German tax.”

我要征收这些税。”他把人们聚集到竞技场，说道：“你知道，我们要缴纳德国税。”

43:00 He called it the German tax.

他称之为德国税。

And there’s such an uproar in the Hippodrome against this that he was like, “Uh, that wasn’t my idea.

竞技场里对此引起了轩然大波，他说：“呃，那不是我的主意。

I don’t know where that came from.

我不知道那是从哪里来的。

No, never mind.

不，没关系。

We’re not gonna have the German tax.” Fortunately, the German emperor died and, and nothing ever happened, but it gives you a sense of how emperors, like, literally can backtrack when they see that the people are against something in a matter of policy, right— …

我们不会征收德国税。”幸运的是，德国皇帝去世了，什么也没发生，但这让你感觉到，当皇帝看到人民在政策问题上反对某些事情时，他们实际上可以撤回，对吧——……

like tax policy.

比如税收政策。

So yeah, there was this give and take.

所以，是的，有这种给予和索取。

So institutionally, the emperor might look absolute, as you called him earlier.

因此，从制度上来说，皇帝可能看起来是绝对的，正如你之前所说的那样。

In practice, no.

实际上，没有。

No.

不。

The ones that did that didn’t end well.

这样做的人结局并不好。

And we should say, going to Perplexity here, the Hippodrome of Constantinople was the main stadium and social center of the Byzantine capital, used primarily for chariot racing and imperial ceremony, and today survives in Istanbul’s Sultanahmet district.

我们应该说，说到这里的困惑，君士坦丁堡竞技场是拜占庭首都的主要体育场和社交中心，主要用于战车比赛和帝国仪式，今天仍然存在于伊斯坦布尔的苏丹艾哈迈德区。

43:40 And the reason I looked this up, I wanted to see how many people.

我之所以查这个，是想看看有多少人。

Shaped as a long U-shaped race course with a central barrier and tiered seating, it may have held from roughly thirty thousand up to a hundred thousand spectators, though exact capacity’s debated because archeological remains are limited.

它的形状是一个长长的 U 形赛马场，有一个中央屏障和分层座位，可以容纳大约三万到十万名观众，但由于考古遗迹有限，确切的容量存在争议。

That’s a lot of people.

那是很多人。

Thirty thousand is definitely a pretty un-underestimate.

三万绝对是一个不容小觑的数字。

44:19 The Hippodrome is still there.

竞技场仍然在那里。

I mean, you can see it from, it’s like satellite photos.

我的意思是，你可以看到它，就像卫星照片一样。

The shape of it is still there.

它的形状还在那里。

44:28 And actually some parts of the build, the, the Sphendone, the, the sling around the southern side is still there.

事实上，建筑的某些部分，Sphendone，南侧的吊索仍然在那里。

You can walk around it.

你可以绕着它走一圈。

And it’s right next to the palace.

而且就在皇宫旁边。

In other words, emperors didn’t have to go far.

换句话说，皇帝不必走太远。

Now, sometimes there are events for replacing an emperor.

现在，有时会发生更换皇帝的事件。

So say the emperor dies in his sleep, and there’s no heir.

所以说皇帝在睡梦中去世，没有继承人。

This happens in 491, for example.

例如，这发生在 491。

And so the people gather in the Hippodrome in order to have a discussion with the court about whom to appoint.

于是，人们聚集在竞技场，与朝廷讨论任命谁。

Now, in those kinds of contexts, it’s entirely possible that there are people also in the arena, like not just in the stands.

现在，在这种情况下，完全有可能有人在竞技场中，不仅仅是看台上。

I think some military units might have just been arrayed there rather than in the stands.

我认为一些军事单位可能只是排列在那里而不是在看台上。

45:10 So you can get more people than what we project might fit in the stands, ’cause they’re not having the races on that day.

因此，看台上容纳的人数可能会超出我们预计的人数，因为他们当天没有比赛。

We should say, so like, I think the thing that was emphasized in the first paragraph is the, the athletic events and the entertainment events, right?

我们应该说，所以，我认为第一段强调的是体育赛事和娱乐赛事，对吗？

45:16 Like the imperial ceremony.

就像皇家的仪式一样。

But there is a, a sort of a political gathering was also popular.

但有一种，一种政治聚会也很受欢迎。

The Hippodrome was not just for sport.

竞技场不仅仅是为了运动。

It was where emperors appeared before the people, where acclamations, public punishments, and political demonstrations took place, and where the rival circus factions, blues, greens, reds, whites, became powerful social and sometimes paramilitary forces.

在这里，皇帝出现在人民面前，举行欢呼、公开惩罚和政治示威，马戏团的敌对派别，蓝、绿、红、白，成为强大的社会力量，有时甚至是准军事力量。

And this goes on and on and on.

这种情况一直持续下去。

So this was a place—

所以这是一个地方——

Oh, it’s a very important place.

哦，这是一个非常重要的地方。

45:51 Yeah

是啊

…

……

45:52 for people to speak to the leader.

让人们能够与领导者交谈。

Yeah.

是的。

45:55 Vent sometimes.

有时发泄一下。

Even insult them.

甚至辱骂他们。

Yeah.

是的。

45:58 This is fascinating.

这很有趣。

I mean, it’s human civilization.

我的意思是，这就是人类文明。

It’s converged towards a mechanism that has clearly worked, because for the empire in the East stood for a thousand years.

它趋向于一种显然有效的机制，因为东方帝国已经存在了一千年。

So it’s, it’s fascinating.

就是这样，这很有趣。

We as humans, throughout our history, we try to figure out, okay, how do we figure out how to govern large collections of humans in a way that they’re represented, in the way that they don’t riot, they don’t rebel.

作为人类，在我们的整个历史中，我们试图弄清楚，好吧，我们如何弄清楚如何以他们所代表的方式来管理大量的人类，以他们不暴动、不叛逆的方式。

In the way that we flourish together as a people, all this, all this kind of stuff.

以我们作为一个民族共同繁荣的方式，所有这些，所有这些事情。

So this is a real…

所以这是一个真正的……

The East Roman Empire is a real study of something that seemed to have worked.

东罗马帝国是对看似有效的东西的真正研究。

There’s lessons there even for the modern times, I think.

我认为，即使是对于现代来说，也有一些教训。

And modern times, again, is very early human civilization.

而现代又是人类文明的早期阶段。

From a certain standpoint, yes, we are still early in—

从某种角度来看，是的，我们还处于早期阶段——

Trying to figure it out

试图弄清楚

…

……

46:58 trying to figure it out.

试图弄清楚。

Yes.

是的。

Now, mind you, I’m not advocating for this type of social organization and government.

现在，请注意，我并不是提倡这种类型的社会组织和政府。

What I’m trying to do as a historian is understand how and why it survived and also to find the ways that it worked, because it did work.

作为一名历史学家，我想做的就是了解它如何以及为何幸存下来，并找到它发挥作用的方式，因为它确实发挥了作用。

We know that much.

我们知道的就这么多。

We have to start from that.

我们必须从那开始。

It survived.

它活了下来。

It was resilient.

它很有弹性。

There was a lot of, you know, give and take in the exercise of power, and I want to understand the mechanisms of that.

你知道，在行使权力时有很多付出和索取，我想了解其中的机制。

So if we can, before we go to Emperor Constantine the First and the founding of Constantinople, can we look at some maybe seminal events that led up to some of the topics we’ll be talking about?

因此，如果可以的话，在我们了解君士坦丁一世皇帝和君士坦丁堡的建立之前，我们是否可以看看一些可能具有开创性的事件，这些事件导致了我们将要讨论的一些主题？

47:27 So one of them, maybe tell me if this is not as interesting as I think it is, but the Edict of Caracalla in 212 AD.

那么其中之一，也许可以告诉我，这是否不像我想象的那么有趣，而是公元 212 年的卡拉卡拉法令。

So this is where you described that starting with Augustus in the early imperial period, government saw itself as a protector of the Roman citizens, which is a minority of the people living in the Roman Empire.

所以这就是你所描述的，从帝国早期的奥古斯都开始，政府将自己视为罗马公民的保护者，罗马公民是生活在罗马帝国的少数人。

It doesn’t consider the provincials.

它不考虑省级。

And then you described that the Edict of Caracalla extended full Roman citizenships to basically all free inhabitants of the Roman Empire.

然后你描述了卡拉卡拉法令将完全的罗马公民身份扩展到罗马帝国的基本上所有自由居民。

So what is it?

那么它是什么？

Why was it done?

为什么这样做？

Why is it important?

为什么它很重要？

And how did it change the Roman Empire?

它如何改变了罗马帝国？

Right.

正确的。

48:30 I agree with you that this is, in fact, a very important…

我同意你的观点，事实上，这是一个非常重要的……

It’s a, it’s a real turning point in a sense, but it also is part of a process.

从某种意义上说，这是一个真正的转折点，但它也是一个过程的一部分。

So for various reasons, the Roman polity tended to bestow its metropolitan citizenship, that is, Roman citizenship on its allies, and eventually in time, on many people that it had conquered.

因此，出于各种原因，罗马政体倾向于将其大都市公民身份，即罗马公民身份授予其盟友，并最终最终授予许多被它征服的人。

And it had various mechanisms for doing so.

它有多种机制可以做到这一点。

It could bestow block grants.

它可以提供整笔拨款。

Sometimes it allowed its generals to bestow citizenship on people they thought would, you know, would be necessary players for controlling local societies.

有时，它允许将军们向他们认为是控制当地社会的必要角色的人授予公民身份。

Sometimes they even allowed foreign cities to, like non-Roman cities, to decide who would get Roman citizenship by basically electing them to certain kinds of offices.

有时他们甚至允许外国城市像非罗马城市一样，通过选举他们担任某些类型的职位来决定谁将获得罗马公民身份。

49:23 Like they, they outsourced a lot of this.

像他们一样，他们外包了很多这样的事情。

And so you have over time the steady growth of a Roman community of citizens who are not all in Rome, and who are not all of Roman origin, whatever that means, but they, they were not descended from people who were from Rome.

因此，随着时间的推移，罗马公民社区稳步增长，他们并不都是罗马人，也不都是罗马血统，无论这意味着什么，但他们并不是来自罗马的人的后裔。

And this proceeds, you know, it expands, it expands, it expands.

你知道，这种情况会继续下去，它会扩展，它会扩展，它会扩展。

By Caracalla’s time, so early third century AD, we can estimate that maybe at, at most a third of the free citizens of the empire are Roman citizens.

到了卡拉卡拉时代，即公元三世纪初，我们可以估计，帝国的自由公民中最多有三分之一是罗马公民。

Everyone else has local citizenship, like you’re Alexandrian or Athenian or, or whatever.

其他人都有当地公民身份，就像你是亚历山大人或雅典人或其他什么人一样。

And with…

并与...

You’re subject to those laws.

您必须遵守这些法律。

This emperor, Caracalla, now that’s his nickname.

这位皇帝，卡拉卡拉，现在这是他的绰号。

His reigning name is Marcus Aurelius Antoninus.

他的在位名是马库斯·奥勒留·安东尼。

So just like Marcus Aurelius, it’s the same name two generations later.

所以就像马库斯·奥勒留一样，两代人之后仍然是同一个名字。

Some badass names for emperors, by the way.

顺便说一下，一些皇帝的坏名字。

50:15 I don’t know if it’s the chicken or the egg, but just- …

我不知道是先有鸡还是先有蛋，但是……

some epic names.

一些史诗般的名字。

They’ve been remembered that way, and so we read that back into the name-

他们就是这样被记住的，所以我们把它读回名字里——

Yes, that’s true.

是的，确实如此。

…

……

50:25 and absolutely, yes.

绝对是的。

But anyway, Caracalla.

但无论如何，卡拉卡拉。

50:26 Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, so he issues this edict in 212 called the Constitutio Antoniniana, named after him.

是的，所以他在 212 年颁布了名为《安东尼尼宪法》的法令，以他的名字命名。

50:28 Some people at the time called it the Divine Decree, which basically extended citizenship to everybody.

当时有些人称之为神圣法令，基本上将公民权扩展到每个人。

Now, we don’t know exactly why he did so.

现在，我们并不确切知道他为什么这样做。

We can guess the reasons that he said he did so, and this was for religious reasons.

我们可以猜测他这样做的原因，这是出于宗教原因。

In other words, he wanted people to go to the temples and pray and give thanks to the gods for him, for his survival out of a coup.

换句话说，他希望人们去寺庙祈祷并感谢神明，为他在政变中幸存下来。

51:01 Which is whatever.

无论如何。

And it’s possible that there was some kind of religious motivation here, and he wanted everybody to do so as Roman citizens to honor the Roman gods and something like that.

这里可能存在某种宗教动机，他希望每个人作为罗马公民都这样做，以尊敬罗马诸神之类的东西。

Other historians at the time said he did it for tax reasons.

当时的其他历史学家表示，他这样做是出于税收原因。

We don’t know exactly.

我们并不确切知道。

There might even have been a kind of ideology of a unified community across the empire playing in his, if not in his mind, in that of the jurists, that is the legal advisors that he had.

甚至可能有一种整个帝国统一共同体的意识形态在他的头脑中发挥作用，如果不是在他的头脑中，在法学家的头脑中，那就是他的法律顾问。

So that’s possible.

所以这是可能的。

But less interesting than his motivations, more interesting are the consequences of this—

但比他的动机更有趣的是它的后果——

51:44 …

……

and what it tells us about the Roman community.

以及它告诉我们关于罗马社会的一切。

So imagine a situation where, like, no modern empire has ever done this really, right?

所以想象一下这样一种情况，没有一个现代帝国真正做到过这一点，对吗？

When what’s significant about the Roman case is that not only did they extend citizenship to everybody, but they meant it.

罗马案例的重要意义在于，他们不仅将公民身份扩展到每个人，而且是认真的。

This is something that had teeth.

这是有牙齿的东西。

In other words, it meant that the rights and opportunities that were available to Roman citizens, say, in the Roman Senate at Rome- …

换句话说，这意味着罗马公民享有的权利和机会，例如，在罗马的罗马元老院——……

are now available to everybody.

现在可供所有人使用。

And within a generation, you have a situation where, like, all of the emperors are provincials, right?

在一代人之内，你会遇到这样一种情况，所有的皇帝都是外省人，对吗？

All the most powerful people in the empire are from the provinces.

帝国所有最有权势的人都来自行省。

This is, like, mind-breaking, mind-blowing.

这真是令人心碎、令人兴奋。

52:25 This is incredible.

这太不可思议了。

The fact that the Roman Empire was able to do this, and it stuck.

事实上，罗马帝国能够做到这一点，并且一直坚持下去。

They did it, and they meant it.

他们做到了，而且也是认真的。

And they meant it.

他们是认真的。

Yes.

是的。

They implemented it.

他们实施了它。

52:35 It was real.

这是真的。

That tells you, that’s an important thing that tells you a lot of information about the populace of the Roman Empire.

这告诉你，这是一件重要的事情，它告诉你很多关于罗马帝国民众的信息。

That the fact that it stuck, that the government meant it, that the system encouraged, incentivized the government to mean it.

事实上，它坚持下来了，政府是认真的，这个制度鼓励、激励政府认真这样做。

It’s incredible.

太不可思议了。

Yeah, and there’s a law of citizenship, and it, basically it says something like, “Anyone born within the Roman Empire is a Roman citizen.” And the Roman jurists and policymakers who were behind this had some very interesting ideas about, you know, creating this kind of community.

是的，有一部公民法，基本上它是这样说的：“任何在罗马帝国出生的人都是罗马公民。”这背后的罗马法学家和政策制定者对于创建这种社区有一些非常有趣的想法。

52:54 Look, like, imagine if, I mean, it’s almost impossible to, to imagine, but the, the British at the time of the peak of the empire bestowed British citizenship on everyone, including in India, and, like, suddenly made positions of power in London available to people from India, like, including the throne.

想象一下，我的意思是，几乎不可能想象，但是，英国在帝国鼎盛时期赋予每个人英国公民身份，包括印度人，并且突然让印度人获得伦敦的权力职位，包括王位。

Like, it’s just unthinkable.

就像，这简直是不可想象的。

53:34 And that has to do, you know, with race and colonialism and all kinds of things, right?

你知道，这与种族、殖民主义和各种各样的事情有关，对吗？

But not in the Roman Empire.

但在罗马帝国却不然。

So we have a situation where the emperors are all from the provinces.

所以我们就出现了皇帝都是来自各省的情况。

The most powerful officials are all from the provinces.

最有权势的官员都来自各省。

And so a century later, when Constantinople is created, this is, it’s created, right, like, in, in the Bosporus, so, like, where modern Istanbul is, in the Eastern Roman Empire.

所以一个世纪后，当君士坦丁堡创建时，它是在博斯普鲁斯海峡创建的，就像现代伊斯坦布尔所在的东罗马帝国一样。

It’s created within the preexisting Roman context, right?

它是在预先存在的罗马背景下创建的，对吧？

It doesn’t bring Romanness to the East.

它并没有把罗马性带到东方。

It’s already there.

它已经在那里了。

And so it’s not such a leap to create a center of Roman power in the East because of that.

因此，在东方建立罗马权力中心并不是一件容易的事。

And you’ve helped put together a book on the history of intellectual thought in the East Roman Empire.

您还帮助编写了一本关于东罗马帝国知识分子思想史的书。

54:13 But this is the interesting thing here, and I can ask that many times, but let me ask it here also, is the great man, the great woman view of history.

但这是这里有趣的事情，我可以问很多次，但让我也在这里问，伟大的男人、伟大的女人的历史观。

Were there, like, Thomas Jefferson or those types of characters in the meetings as, as, as they’re executing on the edict or developing the edict?

会议中是否有像托马斯·杰斐逊这样的人物，他们正在执行法令或制定法令？

Is that important, or is it more about the system and the culture and just…

这重要吗，还是更重要的是系统和文化，只是……

…

……

Is it, how important was it?

是吗，有多重要？

‘Cause this seems like a revolutionary idea, and when we think about the American Revolution and the founding documents, it seems like a few individuals-

因为这似乎是一个革命性的想法，当我们思考美国革命和建国文件时，似乎有一些人——

54:55 …

……

were really critical about the wording of things, and then words matter because those words create the reality, and then it propagates through time.

我们对事物的措辞非常挑剔，然后词语很重要，因为这些词语创造了现实，然后它随着时间的推移而传播。

Yeah.

是的。

55:03 For the edict, I suspect that yes, there were a few people who were behind it, and quite possibly jurists, that is, Roman legal scholars.

对于这份法令，我怀疑是的，背后有一些人，很可能是法学家，即罗马法律学者。

And 212 is in an age of very important Roman legal scholars: Ulpian, for example, and others.

212 年是一个非常重要的罗马法律学者的时代：例如乌尔比安（Ulpian）等人。

But we just don’t have those…

但我们就是没有那些……

We have- …

我们有——……

minutes of the meetings for the- …

会议纪要 - ...

American Revolution.

美国革命。

Not only do we not know who was in the room, we don’t actually even have the whole edict.

我们不仅不知道房间里有谁，而且实际上甚至没有整个法令。

We have a papyrus fragment, this is a piece of ancient paper- …

我们有一张纸莎草碎片，这是一张古老的纸——……

that’s mostly torn and mutilated, and we have, like, a bit of a paragraph from it.

大部分都被撕裂和残缺不全，我们有其中的一小段。

55:39 In Greek, not even the Latin original.

在希腊语中，甚至不是拉丁语原文。

And it’s kind of torn, but it actually preserves the key clause.

它有点撕裂，但它实际上保留了关键条款。

Right?

正确的？

And that’s, that’s all we have of the original.

这就是我们所拥有的所有原始内容。

We have contemporary sources that mention it, we have legal documents, but nothing like a, like we can talk about the people involved in it.

我们有当代的消息来源提到它，我们有法律文件，但没有什么比我们可以谈论参与其中的人更好的了。

Or even how it was immediately implemented.

甚至是如何立即实施的。

Like, suddenly we know everyone in the provinces, like, there’s this explosion in the number of people called Aurelius, because that was his, his Roman family name.

就像，突然间我们认识了各省的每个人，就像，被称为奥勒留的人数激增，因为那是他的罗马姓氏。

And so when you acquired citizenship from that edict, you became an Aurelius.

因此，当您通过该法令获得公民身份时，您就成为了奥勒留（Aurelius）。

Right?

正确的？

And there are lots of Aurelii suddenly all over the place.

突然间到处都是奥雷利。

Like, we can see it immediately.

就像，我们可以立即看到它。

But we can’t actually see the implementation.

但我们实际上看不到具体的实现。

But your instinct says that it was very, individuals were very important in the development of that idea and execution of it.

但你的直觉告诉你，个人在这个想法的发展和执行中非常重要。

Probably, yeah.

可能是的。

56:33 Yeah.

是的。

Even though it’s part of a long-term process of expanding Roman citizenship, this was an explosion, not just an expansion.

尽管这是扩大罗马公民身份的长期过程的一部分，但这是一次爆炸，而不仅仅是一次扩张。

And then you said that one of the important aspects about this edict is that giving equal rights to provincials was one of the things that helped deal with the crisis of the third century, and was the thing that, I think you said, quote, “sapped discontent from the relevant populations,” which then minimized the probability of uprisings.

然后你说，这项法令的一个重要方面是，给予省份平等权利是帮助解决第三世纪危机的事情之一，而且，我想你说过，“消除了相关民众的不满”，从而最大限度地减少了起义的可能性。

Well, now that’s a very long-term process.

好吧，这是一个非常长期的过程。

57:07 Now, the third century is chaos, there’s a crisis, it’s a mess, right?

现在，第三世纪是混乱的，有危机，一团糟，对吗？

So what follows the edict is quite a few decades of unrest.

所以法令颁布之后，就是几十年的动乱。

Okay, let’s put it mildly.

好吧，让我们温和地说。

57:20 Let’s talk about the crisis of the third century, where 26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years.

我们来谈谈第三世纪的危机，50年间有26位皇帝被谋杀。

Yes.

是的。

57:30 It’s tremendous instability.

这是巨大的不稳定。

So there’s civil wars nonstop.

所以内战不断。

57:33 Almost all of these emperors were generals, and almost all were murdered by their men.

这些皇帝几乎都是将军，也几乎都是被手下谋杀的。

So civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, plus there’s a plague- …

所以内战是常态，恶性通货膨胀，经济崩溃，再加上瘟疫......

from 249 to 262 AD, which is a pandemic, possibly smallpox or Ebola.

公元 249 年至 262 年，这是一场大流行，可能是天花或埃博拉。

It killed up to 5,000 people a day in Rome alone, devastating the tax base and army recruitment pool.

仅在罗马，每天就有多达 5,000 人丧生，摧毁了税收基础和军队招募库。

And the empire fractured into three pieces, but then Emperor Aurelian miraculously reconquered them in a period of five years.

帝国分裂成三部分，但奥勒良皇帝在五年内奇迹般地重新征服了它们。

So just a lot of chaos.

所以只是很多混乱。

It, it deserves the name, the Crisis of the Third Century.

它，它名副其实，“三世纪危机”。

Yeah, it’s a perfect storm.

是的，这是一场完美的风暴。

58:20 Yeah, I mean, you have a crisis of imperial legitimacy.

是的，我的意思是，帝国的合法性存在危机。

Basically, the army’s proclaiming emperors left and right.

基本上就是左右军队称帝。

In an odd sense, ironically, this is in part because there are now a lot more stakeholders in the Roman tradition, right?

具有讽刺意味的是，从一种奇怪的意义上来说，这部分是因为现在罗马传统中有更多的利益相关者，对吗？

There’s all of these provincial armies, and they’re appointing their generals as rival emperors.

这里有所有这些省级军队，他们任命自己的将军为竞争对手的皇帝。

But you also have a serious uptick in foreign invasions.

但外国入侵也严重增加。

58:47 In the north, you have the creation of the Sasanian Persian or Iranian Empire in the east, and this was very, very bellicose.

在北方，在东方建立了萨珊波斯或伊朗帝国，这是非常非常好战的。

So lots of foreign defeats.

国外的失败太多了。

Armies are defeated by, you know, like, quote, “barbarian enemies.” You have eventually inflation, and you have plague.

军队被“野蛮的敌人”击败。最终会出现通货膨胀，然后出现瘟疫。

And so under the pressure, right, of all of those forces, it almost fell apart.

因此，在所有这些力量的压力下，它几乎崩溃了。

Now, it didn’t actually.

现在，事实并非如此。

Inevitably, there are also historians who downplay the crisis.

不可避免地，也有历史学家淡化这场危机。

Of course, right, like, and legitimately so, right?

当然，对吧，就像，这是合理的，对吧？

We must push back against every of these characterizations.

我们必须反对所有这些特征。

26 emperors died, bro.

兄弟，死了26个皇帝。

59:23 What do you-

你做什么-

That’s just the emperors.

那只是皇帝们。

59:25 That’s just the emperors.

那只是皇帝们。

We’re…

我们是……

No, we should be l-

不，我们应该是-

I’m sorry.

对不起。

59:29 In 50 years.

50年后。

Every other year, emperor dead.

每隔一年，皇帝就死一次。

Yeah, that’s-

是的，那就是——

Civil war

内战

…

……

59:34 that’s political instability at the top, right?

这就是高层政治不稳定，对吗？

But what-

但是什么-

Right, that’s not-

对了，这不是——

…

……

59:39 what are the lives of most people?

大多数人的生活是什么样的？

So if you go to Egypt, for example, which is kind of out of the…

例如，如果你去埃及，这有点超出……

Right?

对吗？

What’s going on there?

那里发生了什么事？

How are people living there?

那里的人们生活怎么样？

And we can see how people are living in Egypt because we have all these papyrus documents from Egypt.

我们可以看到人们在埃及的生活，因为我们有来自埃及的所有这些纸莎草文件。

That’s true.

这是真的。

And for the most part, they don’t seem to be experiencing a crisis.

在大多数情况下，他们似乎没有经历危机。

I mean, this is something you talk about.

我的意思是，这就是你谈论的事情。

59:56 Constantine, as we’ll get to him, is one of the most murderous leaders in all of human history, if you consider his own family.

如果你考虑一下他自己的家人，我们将要谈到的康斯坦丁是人类历史上最凶残的领导人之一。

But if you’re living in the provinces, you know there’s…

但如果你住在外省，你就会知道……

He’s not-

他不是——

Oh, yeah, yeah

哦，是啊，是啊

…

……

1:00:14 he’s not that murderous.

他没那么凶残。

No, no, no, he’s perfectly fine.

不，不，不，他很好。

1:00:15 Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

So it’s very important to actually remember about what the actual experience of the average citizen of the empire is like.

因此，真正记住帝国普通公民的实际经历是非常重要的。

1:00:16 Fair.

公平的。

Okay, so but how…

好吧，但是如何……

Maybe there’s more we could say about the crisis.

关于这场危机，也许我们还有更多可说的。

And then, of course, the crisis is in part resolved by Diocletian as he does a hard reset on the structure of the Roman system of government.

当然，戴克里先对罗马政府体系的结构进行了硬重置，部分解决了这场危机。

So maybe you could speak a little bit more to the crisis that’s important for us to understand, and how Diocletian solves the crisis in 284 AD.

所以也许你可以多谈谈这场对我们理解很重要的危机，以及戴克里先如何解决公元 284 年的危机。

Right.

正确的。

1:00:48 So again, these are processes rather than specific events.

再说一遍，这些都是过程而不是特定事件。

So for example, you mentioned that the empire kind of breaks into pieces.

例如，你提到帝国有点分裂。

Yes.

是的。

And we have what’s called sometime the Empire of the Gauls.

我们有所谓的高卢帝国。

1:00:57 Gaul are modern France and sort of Britain, for a while are, for a decade and a half or so, are kind of like this little separatist- …

高卢是现代法国，有点像英国，有一段时间，大约十五年左右，有点像这个小小的分离主义者——……

empire.

帝国。

So what’s interesting about that is that this was not an attempt to break away from the empire.

有趣的是，这并不是试图脱离帝国。

In other words, it’s not some discontent provincials who are just tired of Roman rule and wanna break away and do their own thing.

换句话说，并不是一些不满的外省人只是厌倦了罗马的统治，想要脱离并做自己的事情。

No.

不。

This is actually just a, it’s an attempt by provincial generals to take the throne, and does it to rule the entire empire.

这其实只是一个，省将的企图夺取皇位，统治整个帝国。

It doesn’t work.

这不起作用。

They get only as far as the provinces that they take.

他们只能到达他们占领的省份。

And the only way that they know to set up a state is to make it a Roman state.

他们知道建立国家的唯一方法就是使其成为罗马国家。

1:01:43 Right?

正确的？

Like, that’s the total of their political imaginary is like, “Well, we’re just gonna do a Roman thing here.” And maybe we’ll get, you know, we’ll reunite the empire ourselves, or as happened, Aurelian, that is someone from the other side, will reunite the empire.

就像，这就是他们政治想象的全部，就像，“好吧，我们只是要做一件罗马式的事情。”也许我们会，你知道，我们自己会重新统一帝国，或者就像发生的那样，奥勒良，来自另一边的人，会重新统一帝国。

But it’s always a Roman model.

但它始终是罗马模式。

Like, there’s, it’s almost like there’s no alternatives by this point.

就像，到目前为止，几乎没有其他选择。

So that’s interesting.

这很有趣。

What Diocletian does essentially is the, the way I characterize it sometimes is that he turns the problem into its own solution.

戴克里先本质上所做的是，我有时描述它的方式是，他将问题转化为自己的解决方案。

In other words, the problem is too many emperors or wanna-be emperors.

换句话说，问题在于皇帝或想当皇帝的人太多。

Because there’s just more going on.

因为还有更多事情正在发生。

Like, one emperor can’t deal with all these problems along the frontiers, with all the political problems.

就像，一位皇帝无法处理所有这些边境问题和所有政治问题。

1:02:29 So what he does is he deputizes some of his colleagues, people he was on very good terms with from the army.

因此，他所做的就是委托他的一些同事，这些同事是他在军队中关系非常好的人。

These are all Illyrians.

这些都是伊利里亚人。

They’re from…

他们来自……

By the way, for a few centuries, the emperors are all from this region of the former Yugoslavia that’s the size of Scotland.

顺便说一句，几个世纪以来，皇帝都来自前南斯拉夫这个面积相当于苏格兰的地区。

Like, that’s where they all come from.

就像，他们都是从那里来的。

Well, what explains that?

嗯，这怎么解释呢？

The army.

军队。

1:02:46 These are military men.

这些是军人。

Sometimes hard-drinking military men.

有时是酗酒的军人。

Very good at their job like Aurelian, you mentioned, right?

你提到过，像 Aurelian 一样，他们的工作非常出色，对吗？

So there’s a series of Illyrian emperors who restore stability.

因此，出现了一系列恢复稳定的伊利里亚皇帝。

And the reason why there’s so many Illyrian emperors is ’cause they worked their way up through the ranks of the army.

之所以有这么多伊利里亚皇帝，是因为他们是在军队中一步步晋升的。

And, you know, the regions of Yugoslavia at that time are sufficiently, you know, economically underdeveloped that there’s a strong incentive for young men to go join the army ’cause, you know, it’s a living.

而且，你知道，当时南斯拉夫地区的经济很不发达，年轻人有很强的动力去参军，因为，你知道，这是一种谋生手段。

1:03:21 And so Illyrians become, like, kind of the backbone of the Roman army, and they’re described as these, you know, tough Roman conservative types.

因此，伊利里亚人成为罗马军队的骨干，他们被描述为强硬的罗马保守派。

I mean, these are, you know, these are, these are tough military guys.

我的意思是，这些是，你知道，这些是，这些都是坚强的军人。

I say that to draw a contrast between, say, Hadrian, whom I mentioned earlier- …

我这样说是为了与我之前提到的哈德良（Hadrian）进行对比……

you know, who was a much more sophisticated, artsy, poetic, cosmopolitan emperor.

你知道，他是一位更加世故、富有艺术气息、富有诗意、国际化的皇帝。

Also a hard-ass.

也是个硬汉。

You did not wanna mess with Hadrian.

你不想惹哈德良。

But these guys from the third century are military men through and through.

但这些来自三世纪的家伙是彻头彻尾的军人。

Like, their whole careers are, are in the army.

就像，他们的整个职业生涯都是在军队中。

And they have, like, the military stubble.

他们有军事胡茬。

They’ve got these thick necks.

他们的脖子很粗。

They look angry.

他们看起来很生气。

They’ve got their hands on their swords.

他们把手放在剑上。

Like, they’re not projecting an image of sort of- …

就像，他们并没有投射出某种——……的形象。

calm and sophisticated, you know, bum-bum, you know.

冷静而老练，你知道，流浪汉，你知道。

So, military men.

所以，军人。

1:04:08 …

……

Military men from Aurelian.

来自奥勒良的军人。

Yep.

是的。

1:04:11 So Diocletian gets a gang of them together.

所以戴克里先把他们聚集在一起。

They, eventually there are four.

他们，最终是四个。

We call this the Tetrarchy.

我们称之为四帝制。

And he basically allocates them to various…

他基本上将它们分配给各种......

This wasn’t any kind of hard division of the empire.

这并不是帝国的任何硬性分裂。

Basically, it was a collaborative project.

基本上，这是一个合作项目。

They each went wherever they were needed.

他们每个人都去了需要他们的地方。

Was it, is it fair to say that there was four administrative zones?

是不是,说有四个行政区,公平吗?

1:04:31 He allocated each one to a zone?

他给每个人分配了一个区域？

Broadly.

广义上来说。

1:04:38 I’d say more military zones.

我想说更多的军事区。

So the administration tends to operate, it kind of humming along in the background wherever these emperors happen to be, right?

因此，政府往往会在这些皇帝恰好在的地方在后台嗡嗡作响，对吧？

This is a, we’re talking about a period of big government now.

这是一个，我们现在谈论的大政府时期。

So Diocletian creates a larger government, possibly a larger army, and in order to pay for that, you need more systematic and effective taxation- …

因此，戴克里先创建了一个更大的政府，可能还有一支更大的军队，为了支付这些费用，你需要更系统、更有效的税收——……

which means you need more census, you need more bureaucracy, you need more collect…

这意味着你需要更多的人口普查，你需要更多的官僚机构，你需要更多的收集......

you know?

你知道吗？

So it is an era of bigger government.

所以这是一个大政府的时代。

So just to linger on that point- …

所以只是停留在这一点上——……

1:05:05 is it fair to say that Diocletian created the deep state?

可以说戴克里先创造了深层国家吗？

Quote, “deep state.” So the tax collectors, the, the logistics, the thing that you’ve kinda hinted at, which is the separation of the civil and the military layer of society.

引用“深层政府”。所以，税收人员，后勤，你有点暗示的事情，就是社会的民事和军事层的分离。

So the concept of a deep state, I’ve had discussions about that with experts who work on the idea of the deep state, and I’m not sure that I would characterize the Roman Empire that way, in part because while you do have big government, you do have bureaucracy, you have, you have bureaucrats who are buried in various echelons, and you know, nobody knows exactly what they’re doing and things like that, I have not come across the idea of some sort of sinister elements, you know, who are working within the administrative apparatus to undermine the emperor.

因此，关于深层国家的概念，我与研究深层国家概念的专家进行了讨论，我不确定我是否会这样描述罗马帝国，部分原因是虽然你确实有大政府，但你确实有官僚机构，你有，你有埋藏在各个梯队中的官僚，你知道，没有人确切知道他们在做什么以及类似的事情，我没有遇到过某种邪恶分子的想法，你知道，他们正在工作在行政机构内削弱皇帝的权力。

1:05:21 Like, from a distance occasionally, you might get glimpses of this kind of thing.

就像，偶尔从远处，你可能会瞥见这种东西。

Diocletian, for example, once complained that, “Nobody ever tells me anything.” In other words, like, he’s so removed-

例如，戴克里先曾抱怨说：“没有人告诉我任何事情。”换句话说，就像，他是如此遥远——

1:06:07 …

……

in part from the realities of what’s going on on the ground that he felt sometimes he’d lost touch.

部分原因在于当地发生的现实，他有时觉得自己失去了联系。

But I don’t find this kind of idea of undermining imperial power from within the bureaucracy.

但我在官僚机构内部并没有发现这种削弱皇权的想法。

Yeah, I think the, one of the ways to explain that is because, so, you know, in the modern day, democracy in quotes, there’s a kinda temporary nature to the leader at the top.

是的，我认为解释这一点的方法之一是因为，所以，你知道，在现代，民主在引号中，高层领导者有一种临时性。

1:06:21 So it’s incentivized the deep state to form.

所以它刺激了深层政府的形成。

That, so the deep state thinks of themselves as a thing that propagates long-term periods of time, and then the leader is a very ephemeral short, short-term thing.

因此，深层政府认为自己是一个可以长期传播的东西，而领导者则是一个非常短暂的、短期的东西。

With a, with an emperor, technically- …

与一个，与一个皇帝，从技术上来说——……

you can go for a long time, so it’s best to be integrated deeply.

你可以走很长时间，所以最好是深度融合。

With, the bureaucracy should be integrated with the leader.

与之相伴，官僚机构应该与领导融为一体。

It makes sense.

这是有道理的。

Yeah.

是的。

1:06:55 But al-

但阿尔-

Fair enough.

很公平。

…

……

1:06:57 also in modern social thought or fear is that the deep state might be undermining, say-

在现代社会思想或恐惧中，深层政府可能正在破坏，比如说——

Undermining, yeah.

破坏，是的。

…

……

1:07:05 the democracy itself rather than, right, rather than…

民主本身而不是，对，而不是……

It can cut both ways.

它可以双向切割。

But there is a bureaucracy.

但有一个官僚机构。

1:07:09 There is a big government.

有一个大政府。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

1:07:13 Yeah.

是的。

There’s a big machinery.

有一个大型机械。

Yeah, compared to before.

是的，和以前相比。

Before.

前。

Yes.

是的。

1:07:17 So Diocletian creates these larger bureaucratic structures, and these are the ones that define the society that I study.

因此，戴克里先创造了这些更大的官僚结构，这些结构定义了我所研究的社会。

So as a specialist, I focus on the period after him mostly.

所以作为一名专家，我主要关注他之后的时期。

But he implemented those to solve a lot of these problems.

但他实施了这些措施来解决很多这样的问题。

He was mostly successful.

他基本上是成功的。

So in terms of generating revenue from a much more troubled and kind of precarious situation in sustaining large armies and putting down these rebellions and usurpations.

因此，在维持庞大军队并镇压这些叛乱和篡夺方面，从更加麻烦和不稳定的局势中创造收入方面。

And he was generally successful at doing that.

他在这方面总体上是成功的。

So he created the model that they kept for the next, well, three centuries or more.

所以他创造了一个模型，他们在接下来的三个世纪或更长时间里一直保留着这个模型。

But a lot of the elements of that model lasted even beyond that, right?

但该模型的许多元素甚至超越了这一点，对吧？

Yeah, like universal taxation.

是的，就像普遍征税一样。

1:08:04 I’ll give you an example.

我给你举个例子。

Up until then, Italy was exempt from taxes.

在此之前，意大利一直免税。

Italy was the land of the conquerors.

意大利是征服者的土地。

The conquerors don’t pay taxes to themselves.

征服者不给自己纳税。

The conquerors live off the taxes that others pay, right?

征服者靠别人缴纳的税金生活，对吗？

So Italy was this big tax haven, right?

那么意大利是一个大避税天堂，对吧？

Diocletian, Galerius, you know, his guys, these guys are from Illyria.

戴克里先、加莱里乌斯，你知道，他的人，这些人来自伊利里亚。

They’re from the Balkans.

他们来自巴尔干地区。

1:08:27 Like why is Italy tax-free exactly, you know?

就像为什么意大利完全免税，你知道吗？

That doesn’t make any sense.

这没有任何意义。

It’s a very, very wealthy, prosperous part of the world, and so, no, they tax Italy.

这是世界上非常非常富裕、繁荣的地区，所以，不，他们对意大利征税。

So now, like, not only do all Romans have the same citizenship and the same law, they all have the same tax system, and the Diocletianic tax code, as it were, it’s not a code, it sounds like a flat tax, which for us sounds regressive.

所以现在，不仅所有罗马人都拥有相同的公民身份和相同的法律，他们都拥有相同的税收制度，而戴克里先税法，可以说，它不是一个法典，听起来像是单一税，对我们来说，这听起来是累退的。

But by those standards, by the standards of that time, it’s actually kind of progressive in a way.

但按照这些标准，按照当时的标准，它实际上在某种程度上是进步的。

Right.

正确的。

It means that, like, even— …

这意味着，就像，甚至——……

1:08:57 elites paid, like, the same, right?

精英们付出的代价是一样的，对吧？

Yeah.

是的。

So how much of all of this, everything we’ll talk about in the coming centuries, is all about taxation?

那么，这一切，以及我们在未来几个世纪将讨论的一切，有多少都是与税收有关的呢？

I think it’s huge.

我认为这是巨大的。

1:09:08 Taxation is the heart of it.

税收是其核心。

So I mean, the functioning, the success, the flourishing of a society, the way the government works, the way the people are represented, all of it has to do, all the civil wars and everything, it feels like taxation is at the core.

所以我的意思是，一个社会的运作、成功、繁荣，政府的运作方式，人民的代表方式，所有这些都必须要做的事情，所有的内战和一切，感觉税收是核心。

Yes.

是的。

1:09:25 Yeah.

是的。

If you asked me to put my finger on one factor, it would be that.

如果你让我指出一个因素，那就是。

So the taxation system, that feels like the early framework for the East Roman Empire.

所以税收制度，感觉就像东罗马帝国的早期框架。

It did create a more sort of homogeneous framework, for sure.

当然，它确实创建了一个更加同质的框架。

1:09:37 By the end of the third century, it’s pretty much in place.

到了三世纪末，它已经基本就位了。

What Diocletian does is a universal census, and this is continued by his successors.

戴克里先所做的是全民人口普查，他的继任者也继续这样做。

So every taxable asset in the empire is censused.

因此，帝国的每一项应税资产都受到普查。

And so you can now start to have a budget.

现在您可以开始制定预算了。

Now, there is some element, and then you push back against that, some element of Diocletian where he legally limited social and class mobility in part for the taxation system, and made it, in many cases, illegal to move and illegal to quit your job.

现在，有一些因素，然后你反对戴克里先的一些因素，他在法律上限制社会和阶级流动，部分是为了税收制度，并在许多情况下规定，搬家和辞职都是非法的。

1:09:59 For example, as I read to guarantee the food supply and land tax, farmers were legally forbidden from moving away from the land they worked, so the state always knew who to tax.

例如，当我读到保证粮食供应和土地税时，法律禁止农民离开他们耕种的土地，因此国家总是知道向谁征税。

And then for soldiers, sons of veterans were legally obligated to serve in the army to maintain troop numbers.

然后对于士兵来说，退伍军人的儿子有法律义务在军队服役以维持部队数量。

You argue that these were tax enforcement mechanisms, not a rigid caste system, and so in practice, the empire remained a society of high mobility.

你认为这些是税收执行机制，而不是严格的种姓制度，因此实际上，帝国仍然是一个高度流动的社会。

This is a complicated matter.

这是一个复杂的问题。

1:10:50 So let’s talk, for example, about soldiers.

例如，我们来谈谈士兵。

It’s probably the case that most soldiers’ sons were expected to succeed them.

大多数士兵的儿子可能会继承他们的职位。

Like most professions where you have an apprenticeship, the son will usually succeed, right?

就像大多数需要学徒期的职业一样，儿子通常会成功，对吧？

There are a number of other professions that were kind of guild-like in nature, like, for example, shipping.

还有许多其他职业本质上有点像行会，例如航运。

1:11:15 Where there were considerable assets involved in order to secure contracts for insurance purposes for the ships and so forth, and it made sense for those assets to be, you know, passed from father to son.

为了获得船舶等保险目的的合同，涉及大量资产，并且这些资产从父亲传给儿子是有意义的。

In other words, and with them comes the obligation to continue in that line of work.

换句话说，随之而来的是继续从事这一工作的义务。

Some of these things are inherently sort of hereditary, and I don’t think most people would have objected to it.

其中一些东西本质上是遗传的，我认为大多数人不会反对。

The farmers is probably the only case where it might have actually involved some coercion.

农民可能是唯一可能实际上涉及一些胁迫的案例。

There was a category of farmers, and we don’t know how many of them, who were, for fiscal purposes, bound to the land.

有一个农民类别，我们不知道其中有多少人出于财政目的而与土地绑定。

This doesn’t mean they couldn’t leave the land, like physically.

这并不意味着他们不能离开这片土地，比如身体上的。

No one’s preventing them from leaving.

没有人阻止他们离开。

1:12:03 But they were fiscally responsible for providing the taxes or rents or whatever because the, the state wanted to have a secure revenue stream from, say, those lands.

但他们在财政上负责提供税收或租金或其他任何东西，因为国家希望从这些土地上获得稳定的收入来源。

And if…

如果……

Anyway, it’s, it’s one of these complicated situations.

无论如何，这是复杂的情况之一。

This did create some limitations on, on those people.

这确实对这些人造成了一些限制。

And it’s a topic of current research, these bound farmers, as it were, who are tied to the land.

这是当前研究的一个主题，这些被束缚的农民，可以说是与土地联系在一起的。

It’s more of a…

这更像是一个……

You know, someone put it that, you know, most of the time it’s people who own the land, and in this arrangement, it’s the land that owns the, that owns the people.

你知道，有人说，大多数时候是人民拥有土地，在这种安排下，是土地拥有人民。

But you’re saying the bigger picture thing is that there was mobility.

但你说的是更大的问题是流动性。

Oh, there’s considerable mobility.

噢，流动性很大。

So class mobility- …

所以班级流动性-...

1:12:40 and physical mobility- …

和身体活动能力——……

meaning people moved…

意思是人们搬家了……

And we’ll see this from the West into the East and Constantinople and all this kind of stuff.

我们将看到从西方到东方和君士坦丁堡以及所有这些东西。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

1:12:48 There’s tons of mobility.

有大量的流动性。

No, no, this is not a society where people are bound really to…

不，不，这不是一个人们必须真正……的社会。

We, like, we don’t find anybody who’s, who’s like, “Ah, I really don’t wanna be a soldier.

我们，就像，我们没有找到任何人，谁会说，“啊，我真的不想成为一名士兵。

But my father was a soldier, and I’m obligated to be one.” Like- …

但我父亲是一名军人，我也有义务成为一名军人。”就像——……

like, we just don’t hear those kinds of complaints- …

就像，我们只是听不到这类抱怨——……

of people who don’t wanna be a so- Why wouldn’t you wanna be a soldier in the Roman Empire?

那些不想成为罗马帝国士兵的人为什么不想成为一名士兵？

I mean, it’s got tremendous perks.

我的意思是，它有巨大的好处。

So can we just linger on the why is it that Diocletian was able to stabilize the empire?

那么，我们是否可以继续思考戴克里先为何能够稳定帝国呢？

1:13:12 It’s like, you know, the crisis of the third century really threatened to tear apart everything.

就像，你知道的，第三世纪的危机确实有可能撕裂一切。

So why did some of these things that we talked about stabilize?

那么为什么我们谈论的一些事情会稳定下来呢？

Well, Aurelian had already united the empire territorially.

好吧，奥勒良已经在领土上统一了帝国。

1:13:33 So this is right before Diocletian.

所以这是在戴克里先之前。

And what Diocletian did was put in place a system that reduced the number of rebellions.

戴克里先所做的是建立一个减少叛乱数量的制度。

Simply by having four big guys with four armies, they managed to put out all of those fires, or most of them.

仅仅通过四个大人物和四支军队，他们就成功扑灭了所有火灾，或者说大部分火灾。

And once you have stability, and he also beat the Persians, I mean, Galerius did, so starting to beat back foreign invasions, that creates a framework for economic stability.

一旦有了稳定，他也击败了波斯人，我的意思是，加莱里乌斯做到了，所以开始击退外国入侵，这为经济稳定创造了一个框架。

People need to, you know, if they’re going to invest in, like, land reclamation or expand production, they need to know that, you know, foreigners aren’t gonna come rampaging through, marauding through, you know, stealing their cattle and, you know, enslaving them and taking them off to work on agricultural farms in Mesopotamia.

人们需要，你知道，如果他们要投资，比如，开垦土地或扩大生产，他们需要知道，你知道，外国人不会横冲直撞，掠夺，偷走他们的牛，你知道，奴役他们，带他们去美索不达米亚的农场工作。

Like, they need to know this.

就像，他们需要知道这一点。

1:14:20 And if you provide that context of stability, the economic growth, the demographic growth will return.

如果你提供稳定的环境，经济增长、人口增长就会回归。

And Diocletian created that kind of, that context.

戴克里先创造了那种背景。

So that takes us to Constantine, but first a quick bathroom break, if I can.

我们就这样去了康斯坦丁，但如果可以的话，先去趟厕所休息一下。

Sure.

当然。

Quick ten-second thank you to our sponsors.

快速感谢我们的赞助商十秒钟。

1:14:36 Check them out in the description.

在描述中查看它们。

It really is the best way to support this podcast.

这确实是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors.

请访问 lexfridman.com/sponsors。

And now, dear friends, back to our conversation about the Eastern Roman Empire.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，回到我们关于东罗马帝国的谈话。

All right, we’re back, and let’s talk about Constantine and Constantinople.

好吧，我们回来了，我们来谈谈君士坦丁和君士坦丁堡。

Let’s go to the rise of the East Roman Empire.

让我们回顾一下东罗马帝国的崛起。

Who was Constantine?

康斯坦丁是谁？

Tell me about his rise to power and the founding of Constantinople in 330 AD.

告诉我他的权力崛起和公元 330 年君士坦丁堡的建立。

Sure.

当然。

1:15:08 So Constantine was the son of one of Diocletian’s colleagues, so he comes from within the system.

所以君士坦丁是戴克里先一位同事的儿子，所以他来自体制内部。

And the system was actually designed to be non-hereditary.

该系统实际上被设计为非遗传性的。

In other words, the senior emperors would retire, the junior ones would move up to the senior position, and then they would recruit two new ones.

也就是说，老皇帝退了，小皇帝升到了高位，然后又招收了两个新皇帝。

And they tried to skip the dynastic element.

他们试图跳过王朝元素。

So, so it would be kind of, let’s just say, kinda meritocratic, not whose son, you know, you were.

所以，所以，我们可以说，有点精英统治，而不是你是谁的儿子。

Constantine was a son.

康斯坦丁是一个儿子。

He was passed over, but the armies liked him.

他被忽视了，但军队喜欢他。

He was actually quite competent.

他其实很有能力。

1:15:43 And so there’s a series of civil wars among all of these successors of Diocletian, and Constantine emerges as the winner.

因此，戴克里先的所有继承者之间发生了一系列内战，而君士坦丁成为胜利者。

There are periods when there are quite a few of them.

有时它们的数量相当多。

There are, like, six at a time, but they gradually dwindle down to one.

大约一次有六个，但逐渐减少到一个。

So yeah, it’s as long as you have the quarterfinals, semifinals, and then the, the final war, and Constantine emerges in 324 as the sole ruler of the entire Roman Empire.

所以，是的，只要你有四分之一决赛、半决赛，然后是最后的战争，君士坦丁就会在 324 年成为整个罗马帝国的唯一统治者。

So that’s who he is.

所以他就是这样的人。

He’s, he’s definitely an insider, very, very competent general at civil war.

他绝对是一位内战中非常非常有能力的内战将军。

And he gradually moves eastward.

并且逐渐向东移动。

So as he’s conquering his rivals, who are often at times his fathers-in-law or his brothers-in-law, because these people all intermarry, and they have alliances, and they fall out.

因此，当他征服他的对手时，这些对手有时是他的岳父或姐夫，因为这些人都通婚，他们有联盟，但他们却闹翻了。

1:16:29 It’s one of those kinds of situations.

这就是其中一种情况。

He moves eastward, and by the time he defeats his last rival, an emperor called Licinius, in 324 he’s in the East.

他向东移动，当他在 324 年击败最后一个对手、一位名叫李锡尼的皇帝时，他已经在东方了。

And Licinius had his headquarters, or one of his headquarters, at this town called Byzantium.

李锡尼的总部，或者说他的总部之一，就在这个叫做拜占庭的城镇。

Byzantium is a city right where Constantinople was founded.

拜占庭是君士坦丁堡的建立地。

1:16:53 And it is at exactly the point where Europe meets Asia, so on the Bosporus.

它恰好位于欧洲与亚洲的交汇处，博斯普鲁斯海峡也是如此。

And it’s a very strategic location.

这是一个非常具有战略意义的位置。

It always had been, right?

一直都是这样，对吧？

So whoever controls the straits of the Bosporus, yeah, we don’t need to explain how important that is.

所以无论谁控制了博斯普鲁斯海峡，是的，我们不需要解释这有多重要。

And Constantine decides to create a city named after himself, Constantinople, on that spot, Byzantium.

君士坦丁决定在那个地方建立一座以他自己的名字命名的城市，君士坦丁堡，拜占庭。

So Byzantium essentially ceases to exist as a city and is replaced by Constantinople, AKA New Rome.

因此，拜占庭作为一个城市基本上不再存在，取而代之的是君士坦丁堡，又名新罗马。

So it’s pretty clear that right from the beginning, Constantine intended this to be a kind of branch office of Rome in the East, a kind of copy and paste of Rome in the East, and it’s a plan that his successors continued, right?

所以很明显，从一开始，君士坦丁就打算将其作为东方罗马的分支机构，一种东方罗马的复制和粘贴，这是他的继任者继续的计划，对吧？

1:17:37 Now, there are a number of other cities in this, let’s say, in the generation or two before this, that were also treated as sort of quasi-Romes.

现在，这里还有许多其他城市，比如说，在这之前的一两代人中，也被视为某种准罗马。

Basically, there was this historian in the third century who said, “Well, wherever the emperor is, that’s Rome,” right?

基本上，这位三世纪的历史学家说：“好吧，皇帝在哪里，那就是罗马，”对吧？

‘Cause emperors are now itinerant.

因为现在皇帝都是流动的。

They’re no longer staying at Rome.

他们不再留在罗马。

They’re mostly on the frontier, and Constantine is one of these frontier emperors.

他们大多生活在边疆，而君士坦丁就是这些边疆皇帝之一。

They will sometimes visit Rome, maybe once or twice, maybe once a decade, you know, something like this.

他们有时会访问罗马，也许一两次，也许十年一次，你知道，类似这样的事情。

So Rome becomes something that can be sort of copied and pasted in other parts of the empire, and a bunch of other cities get called, you know, a New Rome, an Other Rome, an Alternative Rome, My Rome.

因此，罗马成为可以复制并粘贴到帝国其他地区的东西，并且许多其他城市被称为新罗马，另一个罗马，另类罗马，我的罗马。

And Constantinople is the last and most successful of those.

君士坦丁堡是其中最后一个也是最成功的。

So maybe can you speak geographically the importance of Constantinople?

那么您能否从地理角度谈谈君士坦丁堡的重要性？

1:18:28 It’s an interesting place ’cause it- …

这是一个有趣的地方，因为它——……

when you’re talking about a land so large as the West and the East, with enemies, with threats from all kinds of different directions, the location where the emperor sits is important.

当你谈论东西方这么大的土地，有敌人，有来自各个方向的威胁时，皇帝坐的位置很重要。

Very.

非常。

1:18:46 So look at Rome, right?

那么看看罗马吧？

So it’s right in the middle of Italy, right in the middle of the Mediterranean.

所以它就在意大利的中部，就在地中海的中部。

Very safe location in a way, but it’s very far from the frontiers.

从某种程度上来说，位置非常安全，但距离边境很远。

And this is a period when emperors need to be with the armies, right?

而这个时期，是皇帝需要随军的时期吧？

They’re not senatorial emperors who are sitting in Rome having meetings with senators.

他们不是坐在罗马与参议员开会的元老皇帝。

They are military emperors who are marching along the frontiers mostly with generals rather than civilian administration.

他们是军事皇帝，主要与将军而不是文官一起沿着边境行军。

So they’re doing their job.

所以他们正在做他们的工作。

Like, this is the hard work.

就像，这就是艰苦的工作。

They’re slogging through the mud of winter campaigns, right?

他们正在冬季战役的泥泞中艰难前行，对吗？

1:19:24 They’re not just sitting in a palace enjoying themselves when they could.

他们不只是在可以的时候坐在宫殿里享受乐趣。

But Rome just becomes inconvenient because of that.

但罗马正因此变得不方便。

And if you look at Constantinople, it is kind of halfway between the Danube frontier and the Euphrates frontier.

如果你看看君士坦丁堡，你会发现它位于多瑙河边境和幼发拉底河边境之间。

So if you want to prioritize the East or treat it as an equal part of the Roman Empire, as these emperors all did.

因此，如果你想优先考虑东方或将其视为罗马帝国的平等部分，就像这些皇帝所做的那样。

In fact, almost all emperors who had a choice about whether they would stay in the East or stay in the West chose the East.

事实上，几乎所有在选择留在东方还是留在西方的皇帝都选择了东方。

There’s only one who chooses the West, and that’s Valentinian later in the fourth century.

只有一个人选择了西方，那就是四世纪后期的瓦伦提尼安。

All the others understand that the East is where it’s at.

所有其他人都明白东方就是它所在的地方。

And Constantinople is right between the Danube and the Euphrates.

君士坦丁堡位于多瑙河和幼发拉底河之间。

These are two major frontiers.

这是两个主要领域。

And so it allows emperors to move between the two.

因此它允许皇帝在两者之间移动。

1:20:13 And also look at its location: north, south, east, west, right?

还要看看它的位置：北、南、东、西，对吗？

So north, south, it is the node between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean, right?

那么北，南，它是黑海和地中海之间的节点，对吧？

And east, west, it’s precisely where Europe meets Asia, right?

东方、西方，正是欧洲与亚洲交汇的地方，对吗？

And because there’s a break there, so there’s a Bosporus, the Sea of Marmara, the Hellespont, the Roman Empire during the civil wars, it would tend to break there.

因为那里有断裂，所以有博斯普鲁斯海峡、马尔马拉海、赫勒斯滂海峡、内战期间的罗马帝国，它往往会在那里断裂。

1:20:38 And you would have one emperor on one side in Asia, and you would have another emperor on the other side.

在亚洲的一侧会有一位皇帝，而在另一侧则有另一位皇帝。

And this just kept happening.

而这种情况一直在发生。

And Constantinople ultimately functions as a kind of clamp that unifies this whole area, so basically the Balkans and Asia Minor and Syria as a kind of unit, right?

君士坦丁堡最终起到了统一整个地区的作用，所以基本上巴尔干半岛、小亚细亚和叙利亚是一个单位，对吗？

And, you know, what is a new Rome?

而且，你知道什么是新罗马吗？

A new Rome is, among other things, a new senate, right?

除其他外，新罗马就是新元老院，对吧？

And Constantine and his successors recruit this new senate for the new Rome.

君士坦丁和他的继任者为新罗马招募了这个新元老院。

So we’re talking about maybe two and a half thousand, 3,000 men, you know, at, at, at its peak, and these are all recruited from all of these areas.

所以我们谈论的可能是二千五千人、三千人，你知道，在巅峰时期，这些人都是从所有这些地区招募的。

You know, some come from Rome, but others come from the Aegean region, from Asia Minor, Eastern Mediterranean.

要知道，有的来自罗马，有的则来自爱琴海地区、小亚细亚、东地中海。

1:21:32 So these are the wealthiest people, usually most well-connected elites from the whole Eastern Mediterranean, and they come together and form a new purpose, common purpose in Constantinople.

因此，这些人是最富有的人，通常是整个东地中海人脉最广的精英，他们聚集在一起，在君士坦丁堡形成了一个新的目标，共同的目标。

And the empire never breaks there again.

帝国再也不会在那里崩溃。

Right?

正确的？

So it, it holds together this part of the world.

所以它，它将世界的这一部分团结在一起。

The breaking point now, interestingly, moves to the Adriatic, right?

有趣的是，现在的转折点转移到了亚得里亚海，对吗？

So when, in 395, we talked about East and West kind of splitting.

所以，在 395 年，我们谈到了东西方的分裂。

1:21:57 It breaks at the Adriatic ’cause Constantinople is now holding that whole Eastern world together.

它在亚得里亚海破裂，因为君士坦丁堡现在将整个东方世界团结在一起。

‘Cause all of these elites, they now, they’re invested in it.

因为所有这些精英现在都对此进行了投资。

They’re literally investing in it.

他们确实在投资。

They have to invest in it in order to be senators in Constantinople.

他们必须投资才能成为君士坦丁堡的参议员。

So that’s kind of one of the functions that it, that it performs, a strategic function.

所以这就是它所执行的功能之一，战略功能。

There’s a political function.

有一个政治功能。

There’s also a cultural one, but you know, we can talk about that, too.

还有文化方面的问题，但你知道，我们也可以讨论这个问题。

But that’s what you see there on that map, the northwest, east, south.

但这就是你在地图上看到的东西，西北、东部、南部。

So just to linger on it, so you, you do a podcast, Byzantium and Friends, but you’re also a guest on podcasts, and I should mention you being a guest multiple times on the excellent The History of Byzantium podcast hosted by Robin Pierson.

所以，只是想停留一下，所以你，你做一个播客，《拜占庭和朋友》，但你也是播客的嘉宾，我应该提到你多次在罗宾·皮尔森主持的出色的拜占庭历史播客中担任嘉宾。

1:22:24 I highly recommend people listen to it, to all of your appearances.

我强烈建议人们听听你的所有表演。

You have a lot of really fascinating ones.

你有很多真正令人着迷的。

But the reason I bring all that up is, one of the episodes, you do the fun thing of selecting the top 10 emperors of Byzantium, and spoiler alert, everybody should go listen to the full list ’cause you justify all the different options.

但我提出所有这些的原因是，其中一集，你做了一件有趣的事情，选择了拜占庭的十大皇帝，并且剧透警报，每个人都应该去听完整的列表，因为你证明了所有不同的选择都是合理的。

But Constantine ends up in the number one spot.

但康斯坦丁最终排名第一。

And so can you just add a little bit more depth why he would be in your number one spot- …

那么你能不能再补充一点深度，为什么他会成为你的第一名——……

now that we’re talking about him?

现在我们正在谈论他？

Yes.

是的。

1:23:17 It’s not because I sort of like him as a person, right?

这并不是因为我有点喜欢他这个人，对吧？

I mean- …

我的意思是——……

as you said, he was pretty murderous.

正如你所说，他杀气很大。

Right?

正确的？

All those wars, so clearly ambitious, murderous, ruthless, basically.

所有这些战争基本上都是野心勃勃、凶残、残酷的。

Can you actually speak to the murderous aspect?

你真的能谈谈凶残的一面吗？

1:23:30 He seemed to have murdered a lot of people in his family.

他似乎杀了他家族里的很多人。

Yes, that’s because what we call his family were also alliances of convenience that he made on the way to the top.

是的，那是因为我们所说的他的家人也是他在走向顶峰的过程中结成的便利联盟。

1:23:36 And when those alliances or, you know, those, you know, those wives or those fathers-in-law were no longer convenient or, or turned against him, he had no hesitation in removing them.

当这些联盟，或者，你知道，那些，你知道，那些妻子或那些岳父不再方便或者，或者反对他时，他会毫不犹豫地取消它们。

But he’s also, you know, he gets a, a little extra bonus because he also murdered his own son, Crispus, who was- …

但他也，你知道，他得到了一点额外的奖金，因为他还谋杀了自己的儿子克里斯普斯，他是……

apparently a very competent and popular kind of general, and we don’t know why.

显然，他是一位非常有能力、很受欢迎的将军，我们不知道为什么。

He executes Crispus soon after defeating Licinius, and then follows it up with the murder of his wife-

他在击败李锡尼后不久就处决了克里斯普斯，然后又谋杀了他的妻子——

1:24:18 …

……

not Crispus’ mother, and we don’t know why.

不是克里斯普斯的母亲，我们不知道为什么。

The funny thing is that when emperors do this sort of thing, if there’s any kind of remotely, like, a good reason, they’ll blast it through all of the media, right?

有趣的是，当皇帝做这种事情时，如果有任何远程的，比如，一个好的理由，他们会通过所有媒体进行轰炸，对吧？

Like, “Crispus was rebelling against me,” or whatever.

比如，“克里斯普斯在反抗我”之类的。

There’s nothing.

什么也没有。

He doesn’t even try to justify it, which means it must have been something unjustifiable.

他甚至没有试图证明这一点，这意味着这一定是不合理的事情。

Like, I don’t know.

就像，我不知道。

I can’t process it.

我无法处理它。

And also, I read that the historians of the time would just ignore that that happened.

而且，我读到当时的历史学家会忽略那件事的发生。

Yes.

是的。

1:24:47 Well, sort of.

嗯，有点像。

So when Crispus is alive, it’s all, like, praising Crispus as, “Oh, Constantine, you great emperor, and your wonderful son who will…” whatever.

因此，当克里斯普斯活着时，人们都会称赞克里斯普斯，“哦，康斯坦丁，你伟大的皇帝，还有你出色的儿子，他会……”无论如何。

And then Crispus is executed, and he just disappears from the, like- …

然后克里斯普斯被处决，他就从……消失了。

they never talk about him.

他们从不谈论他。

Yeah.

是的。

1:25:02 Actually, as another side to a side, I think you mentioned whether it’s on your podcast or elsewhere, that if you had to have a beer with any of the emperors, you probably wouldn’t.

事实上，作为另一方，我想你提到过，无论是在你的播客还是其他地方，如果你必须和任何一位皇帝喝啤酒，你可能不会。

So it’s not like some of the most impactful, some of the most influential and great emperors that we talk about, they might not be very pleasant people.

所以这不像我们谈论的一些最有影响力、最有影响力和最伟大的皇帝，他们可能不是非常令人愉快的人。

Right.

正确的。

1:25:27 So let’s set aside whether you’d like to have a beer with these people.

所以，让我们先把你是否愿意和这些人一起喝啤酒放在一边。

The reason I put Constantine at the top of the list is because the decisions that he made were so consequential, just important, and for the most part, not bad decisions.

我之所以将康斯坦丁放在名单的首位，是因为他做出的决定非常重要，而且在大多数情况下，都不是糟糕的决定。

So I couldn’t not put him at the top of the list.

所以我不能不把他放在名单的首位。

The, you know, creating Constantinople and converting to Christianity and setting the empire on a path to conversion, these are major, like, world history level decisions.

你知道，创建君士坦丁堡、皈依基督教、让帝国走上皈依之路，这些都是世界历史层面的重大决策。

1:26:02 Right?

正确的？

Now, not many emperors do that.

现在，这样做的皇帝并不多。

In fact, Constantine is in, like, his own league when it comes to those kinds of decisions.

事实上，康斯坦丁在做出此类决定时，就像是他自己的联盟​​。

My other criteria for top emperors were basically those who did the job well, right?

我对顶级皇帝的其他标准基本上就是那些做得好的人，对吧？

Not making, you know, these kinds of earth, you know, shattering decisions or, you know, world history changing decisions, but just who performed the role competently with results that impacted the lives of their subjects for the better.

不是做出这些破坏地球的决定，或者改变世界历史的决定，而只是谁出色地履行了这一职责，并取得了使臣民的生活变得更好的结果。

So those are the other criteria that I used.

这些是我使用的其他标准。

It’s difficult to juggle these different criteria, right, in order to create a systematic list.

很难兼顾这些不同的标准，对吧，以创建一个系统的列表。

And by the way, we, historians, generally don’t do these kinds of things.

顺便说一句，我们历史学家通常不会做这类事情。

But you said it’s fun.

但你说这很有趣。

It’s fun.

这很有趣。

It is fun.

这很有趣。

It was fun.

很有趣。

1:26:45 It was fun.

很有趣。

And it allows you to talk about certain things that you might not otherwise do.

它可以让你谈论某些你本来不会做的事情。

So yeah, that’s why Constantine was at the top.

是的，这就是康斯坦丁位居榜首的原因。

So you mentioned Christianity.

所以你提到了基督教。

1:26:53 That was one other big component of his rule.

这是他统治的另一重要组成部分。

What was the role of Christianity in Constantine’s life, in the lives of the citizens of the new Roman Empire?

基督教在君士坦丁的生活和新罗马帝国公民的生活中扮演什么角色？

At this stage, Christianity doesn’t have a role.

在这个阶段，基督教没有任何作用。

1:27:08 It actually took the emperors…

事实上，皇帝们……

When the emperors took it on board, that is, they made it a part of the imperial system, then it began to acquire a role within the system.

当皇帝将其纳入其中，即成为帝国体系的一部分时，它就开始在体系内发挥作用。

Previously, it had imagined itself as having its own history, like not necessarily part of the empire or affiliated with imperial power.

此前，它曾想象自己有自己的历史，不一定是帝国的一部分，也不一定隶属于皇权。

But after Constantine, it does acquire a role.

但在君士坦丁之后，它确实发挥了作用。

And so actually, one way to ask that question, which is fascinating, ’cause you said that there’s like, there’s Rome, and then there’s like cultures or traditions like Christianity or being Greek, that kind of thing.

事实上，问这个问题的一种方式很有趣，因为你说有罗马，然后有像基督教或希腊人这样的文化或传统。

1:27:34 So one of the ways to ask this question is: does Christianity triumph over Rome, or did Rome capture Christianity?

所以问这个问题的方法之一是：基督教战胜了罗马，还是罗马占领了基督教？

Right.

正确的。

1:27:58 Yes.

是的。

That’s a—

那是一个——

Which is the mechanism?

机制是哪一个？

I would lean more toward the second.

我更倾向于第二个。

1:28:04 In other words, that the religion was co-opted by the imperial system.

换句话说，该宗教被帝国制度所吸收。

Now, there are many areas in which that’s not the case and where the opposite happens, so I’m not gonna be absolute about it, but I think it’s very important to recognize that because Christianity generates this narrative of triumph— …

现在，有很多领域的情况并非如此，并且发生了相反的情况，所以我不会对此绝对，但我认为认识到这一点非常重要，因为基督教产生了这种胜利的叙述......

right, which modern historians perpetuate, and it’s framed in very particular ways.

现代历史学家延续了这一点，并且以非常特殊的方式构建了它。

In other words, that Christianity triumphs over the ancient religions.

换句话说，基督教战胜了古代宗教。

1:28:31 Right?

正确的？

So displacing Zeus and Apollo and all of that, and animal sacrifice is gone, and like, that’s because Christianity triumphs, and that’s a very narrow way of looking at it.

因此，取代了宙斯和阿波罗之类的一切，动物祭祀也消失了，这是因为基督教取得了胜利，这是一种非常狭隘的看待它的方式。

In other words, you pick your enemy, and then you can defeat that enemy, right?

换句话说，你选择了你的敌人，然后你就可以打败那个敌人，对吗？

But if you look in the other direction, there’s, like, the Roman imperial state, and you cannot say that Christianity either triumphed over it or even tamed it or anything.

但如果你看另一个方向，就像罗马帝国一样，你不能说基督教战胜了它，甚至驯服了它或其他什么。

It actually became part of it.

它实际上成为了它的一部分。

1:28:56 In many ways that, you know, determined its history for centuries and, in fact, down to today.

你知道，这在很多方面决定了它几个世纪以来的历史，事实上，一直延续到今天。

So this is very different, for example, from the history of Islam.

例如，这与伊斯兰教的历史非常不同。

So Islam comes into existence without a preexisting state to receive it and take it on board.

因此，伊斯兰教的诞生并没有一个预先存在的国家来接受它并接受它。

It creates its own state, right?

它创建了自己的状态，对吧？

So the Muslim armies, they conquer this empire, and then they have to sort of govern it.

因此，穆斯林军队征服了这个帝国，然后他们必须对其进行治理。

They think according to whatever Islamic principles.

他们根据任何伊斯兰原则思考。

The Quran doesn’t say anything about running an empire.

《古兰经》没有提及任何关于管理帝国的内容。

1:29:29 So that creates a completely different society, right, where, like, Islam is really a primary kind of identity and, like, drives a lot of developments.

因此，这就创造了一个完全不同的社会，对吧，伊斯兰教实际上是一种主要的身份，并且推动了很多发展。

But Christianity comes into existence within a very well-developed society and political system.

但基督教是在一个非常发达的社会和政治体系中存在的。

Now, here’s the thing.

现在，事情是这样的。

We don’t know exactly how many Christians existed in the time of Constantine.

我们不知道君士坦丁时代有多少基督徒。

Well, we speculate maybe 10% of the empire.

嗯，我们推测可能是帝国的 10%。

That might be very high, right?

这可能非常高，对吧？

But even if it’s 10%, it’s not a lot, and these are not, like, elites for the most part.

但即使是 10%，也不是很多，而且这些人大部分都不是精英。

Maybe middle, you know, what we loosely call middle class, a few elites, a few slaves, like this kind of thing.

也许中产阶级，你知道，我们宽松地称之为中产阶级，一些精英，一些奴隶，就像这样的东西。

Mostly urban, and keeping in mind, most of the population is rural.

大多数是城市人口，请记住，大多数人口是农村人口。

1:30:14 Right?

正确的？

So pockets of concentrated, you know, Christian groups in cities.

所以你知道，城市中有一些集中的基督教团体。

That’s what we’re talking about.

这就是我们正在谈论的。

Not terribly politically powerful.

政治上没有多大权力。

So Constantine’s conversion to Christianity and moving the empire towards Christianity is not something where it’s a gigantic majority of the people— …

所以君士坦丁皈依基督教并把帝国推向基督教并不是绝大多数人的事情——……

1:30:22 or it’s a political convenience because it’s the elites.

或者这是一种政治便利，因为它是精英。

It’s something else.

这是另一回事。

I mean, it’s a pretty revolutionary decision, I would say.

我的意思是，我想说，这是一个相当革命性的决定。

Exactly.

确切地。

1:30:38 Now, there used to be theories that Constantine did this for, like, pragmatic, cynical reasons, that he, like, wasn’t a true Christian or anything, but there was some kind of political gain to be had here.

现在，曾经有理论认为君士坦丁这样做是出于务实、愤世嫉俗的原因，他不是真正的基督徒或其他什么，但这里有某种政治利益。

But I have never read a convincing account of what exactly that political gain is.

但我从未读过关于政治收益到底是什么的令人信服的描述。

We now know that there are fewer Christians.

我们现在知道基督徒越来越少了。

They were not that influential.

他们没有那么有影响力。

You can make an argument that bishops are a kind of convenient social influencers, you might say.

你可能会说，你可以说主教是一种方便的社会影响者。

Like, you can use those.

就像，你可以使用那些。

They’re not a threat to your position.

他们不会对你的职位构成威胁。

1:31:08 Right?

正确的？

So a bishop is not gonna try to take the throne.

所以主教不会试图夺取王位。

So they’re not dangerous political operatives in that way.

因此，他们并不是危险的政治人物。

But they do have some influence over sectors of society, and so that might be a…

但他们确实对社会各阶层有一些影响，所以这可能是……

Okay, I see that, but I don’t quite see the argument for, like, going full Christian just to get the support of some bishops, who actually pretty quickly turn out to be, some of them, more trouble than they’re worth.

好吧，我明白了，但我不太明白这样的论点，比如，完全成为基督徒只是为了获得一些主教的支持，实际上，他们中的一些人很快就发现，他们中的一些人带来的麻烦比他们应得的还要多。

Anyway, so I have not yet seen a convincing political argument for Constantine’s decision, which means that you then fall back on a personal explanation that he did this because he was a believing Christian, right?

无论如何，所以我还没有看到关于君士坦丁决定的令人信服的政治论据，这意味着你会求助于个人解释，他这样做是因为他是一名虔诚的基督徒，对吗？

And he came out, you know, in support of the religion that he held, and that’s kind of where most scholars are today.

你知道，他出来支持他所信仰的宗教，这就是今天大多数学者的处境。

1:31:53 Though, I gotta tell you, historians are very uncomfortable about personal choice, like explaining history in terms of these kinds of personal choices.

不过，我得告诉你，历史学家对个人选择感到非常不舒服，比如用这种个人选择来解释历史。

Because Constantine’s conversion is like, it’s massive.

因为康斯坦丁的转变是巨大的。

It opens the door.

它打开了门。

It incentivizes so many people to also convert.

它也激励了很多人皈依。

1:32:11 ‘Cause Romans will generally do what their, you know, rulers will tell them.

因为罗马人通常会做他们的统治者告诉他们的事情。

If we’ve mentioned Hadrian a few times, Hadrian had this lover, Antinous, Greek boy from Bithynia, who died in an accident in Egypt, whatever, and Hadrian said basically that Antinous should be regarded as a god throughout the empire.

如果我们多次提到哈德良，哈德良有一个情人，安提诺斯，来自比提尼亚的希腊男孩，在埃及的一次事故中丧生，无论如何，哈德良基本上说安提诺斯应该被视为整个帝国的神。

And he was.

他确实是。

We have, like, more statues and busts of Antinous from all of these temples all over the empire than I think of anyone else except Hadrian.

我们在整个帝国的所有这些寺庙中拥有的安提诺乌斯雕像和半身像比我想象的除了哈德良之外的任何人都多。

So yeah, if the emperor says, like, “This is a person who’s a god now, you know, put statues of him everywhere,” they will.

所以，是的，如果皇帝说，“这个人现在是神了，你知道，到处都放他的雕像，”他们会的。

And when Constantine comes out in favor of Christianity, you know, suddenly people discover that, oh, this is an interesting rite.

当君士坦丁站出来支持基督教时，你知道，人们突然发现，哦，这是一个有趣的仪式。

It’s got the support of the emperor.

得到了皇帝的支持。

So one of the things here, going to the Perplexity, Constantine’s conversion to Christianity is usually dated to 312 AD linked to a visionary experience before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge.

因此，这里的一件事，说到困惑，君士坦丁皈依基督教通常可以追溯到公元 312 年，这与米尔维安桥战役之前的一次异象经历有关。

1:32:53 Do you believe that vision, that he had this religious experience before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge?

你相信他在米尔维安桥战役之前有过这种宗教经历的异象吗？

Here it says, “But historians debate both its nature and its sincerity.”

这里说，“但历史学家对其性质和诚意都存在争议。”

Well—

嗯——

Do you believe the sincerity of that experience?

你相信那次经历的诚意吗？

Before we even get to the sincerity— …

在我们表达诚意之前——……

1:33:20 is the problem of the sources.

是片源的问题。

This is reported by authors writing later in the aftermath of a victory when the emperor…

这是作者在胜利后写道的，当时皇帝……

Like, one of them had a dinner conversation with the emperor a few decades later, and he said, “Well, let me tell you about the Milvian Bridge.” And it’s like, okay, I’m not gonna believe that.

比如，几十年后，其中一位与皇帝共进晚餐，他说：“好吧，让我告诉你有关米尔维安桥的事。”就像，好吧，我不会相信这一点。

I’m not gonna take that at face value, rather.

相反，我不会从表面上理解这一点。

It’s a much more complicated…

这是一个更复杂的……

You know, this is how the emperor wants things to be remembered.

你知道，这就是皇帝希望事情被铭记的方式。

1:33:43 That’s different.

那是不同的。

Also, Constantine tended to have a lot of religious visions.

此外，君士坦丁往往有很多宗教愿景。

He had had religious visions of Apollo before Christ, and we have sources that talk about that, too, that he went to this temple in Gaul, and Apollo appeared to him in the form of light.

他曾在基督面前看到过阿波罗的宗教异象，我们也有消息来源谈到，他去了高卢的这座神庙，阿波罗以光的形式向他显现。

Okay, Constantine has a religious vision every time he kind of wants to shift policies and his, like, profile.

好吧，每当君士坦丁想要改变政策和他的形象时，他都会有一个宗教愿景。

Like, when he wanted to break away from his other emperors who used to go for the—like, they went for this kind of Jupiter/Hercules model.

就像，当他想摆脱其他皇帝的束缚时，他们就选择了这种朱庇特/赫拉克勒斯模型。

And he shifted to an Apollo model.

他转向了阿波罗模型。

This is a branding.

这是一个品牌。

This is emperors doing branding.

这是皇帝在做品牌。

So we should say that, as you’ve described, Constantine is a pragmatist.

所以我们应该说，正如你所描述的，康斯坦丁是一个实用主义者。

1:34:15 He’s very pragmatic.

他非常务实。

But you’re saying it’s fair to believe, based on the evidence, that he actually converged towards being a Christian believer.

但你是说，根据证据，可以公平地相信，他实际上已经成为一名基督教信徒。

Yeah.

是的。

1:34:32 It’s very possible, in fact plausible, that he thought the Christian God had helped him in battle.

他很可能认为基督教的上帝在战斗中帮助了他，事实上这似乎是合理的。

And, you know, for someone like him, that’s as good a reason as any to support that god.

而且，你知道，对于像他这样的人来说，这是支持这位上帝的一个很好的理由。

But he was not, like, a hardcore Christian all the way through.

但他自始至终都不是一个铁杆基督徒。

1:34:44 He was a kind of a spiritual, religious kind of person.

他是一个有精神、有宗教信仰的人。

He thought about religions more generally and just converged towards Christianity as a good religion.

他更广泛地思考宗教，并倾向于将基督教视为一种好的宗教。

He also had ideas about what a good religion is— …

他还对什么是好的宗教有自己的想法——……

and what a bad religion is, that kind of stuff.

诸如此类的事情是多么糟糕的宗教啊。

So he’s thinking in this space.

所以他在这个空间里思考。

He’s tending not to be too explicit.

他倾向于不太直白。

1:35:08 Depending on the audience.

取决于观众。

So Constantine remains a pragmatist in the sense that he doesn’t want to alienate too many of his subjects, right?

所以康斯坦丁仍然是一个实用主义者，因为他不想疏远太多的臣民，对吗？

And so he’s sometimes a bit coy or elusive about what he’s getting at.

因此，他有时对自己的意思有点含糊其辞或难以捉摸。

When he’s talking to Christians, he will talk about Christ.

当他与基督徒交谈时，他会谈论基督。

He will mention Christ.

他会提到基督。

When he’s talking to everybody else in, like, a general law, he’ll just refer to good religion.

当他在一般法律中与其他人交谈时，他只会提到好的宗教。

And it’s like you, like, you, maybe you know what I mean, right?

就像你，你，也许你知道我的意思，对吧？

But he’s not gonna, like, you know, come to Jesus.

但他不会，你知道，来到耶稣面前。

Right?

正确的？

1:35:44 So even at the time when he’s, like, supporting the church, like, basically institutionalizing the church as an part—of the imperial system, but he’s also putting up statues of himself that look like Apollo in Constantinople, right?

因此，即使在他支持教会的时候，基本上将教会制度化为帝国体系的一部分，但他也在君士坦丁堡竖起了看起来像阿波罗的自己的雕像，对吗？

So the focal point of Constantine’s Constantinople is the Forum of Constantine.

所以君士坦丁君士坦丁堡的焦点就是君士坦丁论坛。

And in the middle is this very tall column, and it has a colossal statue of Constantine on top, gilded, enormous thing.

中间是一根非常高的柱子，上面有一尊康斯坦丁的巨大雕像，镀金的，巨大的东西。

I don’t know, like, eight meters tall or whatever.

我不知道，比如，八米高或其他什么。

But it’s a repurposed Apollo.

但这是一艘经过改造的阿波罗号。

It’s even, it, like, visibly so.

甚至，它，就像，明显如此。

It’s naked.

它是赤身裸体的。

It has the rays coming out of the-

它有光线从-

1:36:22 …

……

head, right?

头，对吧？

Right.

正确的。

And everybody knew it was an Apollo.

每个人都知道这是阿波罗号。

So that’s Constantine in the guise of his old patron god, Apollo.

这就是君士坦丁以他的旧守护神阿波罗为幌子。

Still, but he’s still Christian Constantine, so he’s sending all of these different messages.

尽管如此，但他仍然是克里斯蒂安·康斯坦丁，所以他正在发送所有这些不同的信息。

I mean, he likes being the god-like figure.

我的意思是，他喜欢成为神一样的人物。

1:36:34 I mean, that whole statue just is like, “I am the god.”

我的意思是，整个雕像就像是“我是神”。

Yeah.

是的。

1:36:41 It’s assimilating yourself to…

它正在让你自己同化……

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

And I mean, a lot of the Romans, is it fair to say, kinda saw the emperor a little bit in that light?

我的意思是，很多罗马人，公平地说，都有点从这个角度看待皇帝吗？

No, yeah.

不，是的。

1:36:48 Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

They called him divine and— yeah.

他们称他为神圣的——是的。

That, there’s not a hard theology there, right?

那，那里没有严格的神学，对吧？

Like, if you pressed them on the actual theology, they wouldn’t— …

就像，如果你向他们施加实际的神学压力，他们不会——……

they wouldn’t say the emperor is a god.

他们不会说皇帝是神。

No.

不。

This is mushy.

这是糊状的。

This gets very, very mushy.

这变得非常非常糊状。

But I mean, a lot of the Christians have a kinda humility before God.

但我的意思是，很多基督徒在神面前都有点谦卑。

1:37:01 I think when you have an emperor that’s god-like, it gets a little weird-

我认为当你有一个像神一样的皇帝时，它会变得有点奇怪-

Yes.

是的。

1:37:11 Yes.

是的。

…

……

1:37:13 in the way you talk about God.

以你谈论上帝的方式。

It depends on the context.

这取决于上下文。

1:37:15 Like, there are contexts in which you are an emperor and you’re proclaiming your majesty, and then there are more personal contexts where you might be more humble because, I don’t know, you’re being baptized or something.

比如，在某些情况下，你是皇帝，你在宣告你的威严，然后在更多的个人情况下，你可能会更加谦虚，因为我不知道，你正在接受洗礼或其他什么。

Like, those are different contexts.

就像，这些是不同的背景。

So can you speak to the whole process of the conversion to Christianity, of the- …

那么你能谈谈皈依基督教的整个过程吗？

1:37:29 propagation of Christianity throughout the empire and Constantine’s role in that?

基督教在整个帝国的传播以及君士坦丁在其中的作用？

Constantine, or his successors as well, because this was a gradual process, and it takes a very long time.

君士坦丁，或者他的继任者也是如此，因为这是一个渐进的过程，需要很长的时间。

1:37:38 So let’s let’s put it into perspective.

因此，让我们正确看待它。

We probably can’t talk about a majority Christian society until maybe the 5th century, or early 5th— …

我们可能要到五世纪或五世纪初才能谈论基督教占多数的社会……

mid-5th.

5号中旬。

We, we don’t have data, obviously.

显然，我们没有数据。

And we can’t talk about, like, a solidly Christian society until early 6th century.

直到六世纪初我们才能谈论一个坚定的基督教社会。

And by solidly, I mean maybe where the non-Christians are 10, 15%, right?

我所说的“可靠”是指非基督徒可能占 10%、15%，对吧？

So that’s a long time.

所以那是很长一段时间。

That’s, like, five centuries after Jesus.

那是在耶稣之后的五个世纪。

That’s half a millennium.

那是半个千年。

So we’re talking about a half-millennial process here.

所以我们在这里谈论的是一个半千年的过程。

It’s, it’s very long.

是的，很长。

But it’s only a couple of centuries after Constantine.

但这仅仅在君士坦丁之后几个世纪。

Yes.

是的。

So it takes- …

所以需要——……

1:38:28 about two centuries to really make the Roman Empire Christian

大约两个世纪才真正使罗马帝国成为基督教

Yes.

是的。

1:38:34 So very slow conversion, maybe, maybe up to 10% tops under Constantine.

所以转换非常慢，也许在康斯坦丁领导下最多可达 10%。

Then obviously larger and larger groups join the church, even if only nominally, right?

那么显然越来越多的团体加入教会，即使只是名义上的，对吗？

Until you get to the sixth century when you’re clearly talking about a, you know, mostly or overwhelmingly Christian society.

直到六世纪，你才清楚地谈论一个，你知道，大部分或压倒性的基督教社会。

A lot of this is just done through incentives and disincentives, right?

其中很多都是通过激励和抑制措施来完成的，对吧？

So bishops are given funds with which to distribute, like, charity and help to communities in distress.

因此，主教们获得了资金，可以用来分发慈善物品，并帮助陷入困境的社区。

They have lists of widows and whatever they support.

他们有寡妇名单以及她们所支持的一切。

Land is given to the church by the emperors or in wills so that they can engage in this kind of social policy.

土地由皇帝或遗嘱授予教会，以便他们能够参与这种社会政策。

And then there are disincentives.

然后还有一些抑制因素。

So emperors pass laws that increasingly restrict the exercise of traditional religion.

因此，皇帝们通过了越来越多地限制传统宗教活动的法律。

1:39:25 Like, you can’t perform animal sacrifices, then you can’t start doing these like tying ribbons to make wishes or, like, all of these things, like going out to sacred trees and doing this or that, because they say, “Oh, this is kind of nefarious business,” or, like, magic or whatever it is.

比如，你不能进行动物祭祀，那么你就不能开始做这些事情，比如系丝带许愿，或者所有这些事情，比如去圣树前做这个或那个，因为他们说，“哦，这是一种邪恶的行为”，或者，比如魔法或其他什么。

And then they just gradually start outlawing it more and more, putting restrictions on, like, if you’re not a Christian, you can’t hold these high offices or you can’t…

然后他们逐渐开始越来越多地取缔它，并施加限制，比如，如果你不是基督徒，你就不能担任这些高级职位，或者你不能……

Your…

你的…

There’s problems with your wills.

你的意志有问题。

So they gradually do it like that.

所以他们逐渐这样做。

And this is how you…

这就是你……

Yeah, this is…

是的，这是……

And it works.

它有效。

It works.

有用。

What explains the success of Christianity after Constantine?

如何解释君士坦丁之后基督教的成功？

1:39:58 Why, why was it, as a technology, so successful at spreading throughout the empire?

为什么它作为一项技术能够如此成功地在整个帝国传播？

Christianity developed in a number of ways.

基督教以多种方式发展。

1:40:08 So it acquired a certain number of forms that were capable of appealing to different constituencies.

因此它获得了一定数量的能够吸引不同选民的形式。

In other words, there was an intellectual side to it, the sort of theology, the almost quasi-philosophical or engagement with philosophical schools that could draw in, let’s say, intellectuals.

换句话说，它有知识分子的一面，那种神学，几乎是准哲学的或与哲学流派的接触，可以吸引知识分子。

There is a public ceremony and ritual aspect where you can organize communities and cities to have processions or, like, have all these festivals that take the place of the ancient ones.

有一个公共仪式和仪式方面，您可以组织社区和城市举行游行，或者举办所有这些节日来代替古代节日。

You have a kind of, it’s not secretive, but it’s kind of this initiatory aspect where there’s this baptism and you learn a sort of creed, and you’re initiated into the religion with the prospect of a personal afterlife, right?

你有一种，这不是秘密的，但这是一种启蒙方面，有洗礼，你学习一种信条，你开始进入宗教，并有个人来世的前景，对吗？

And that appeals to other kinds of people.

这对其他类型的人很有吸引力。

1:41:12 There’s also ways in which it integrated itself into the court and the language of power.

它还可以通过多种方式将自己融入宫廷和权力语言中。

Also in the army, right?

也在军队里吧？

Soldiers now swear an oath to the Trinity, right?

士兵们现在向三位一体宣誓，对吗？

So it takes all of these different forms that enable it to position itself, you know, here and there and, you know, in the streets, in the court, in the armies, in the churches, in texts, in books.

因此，它采取了所有这些不同的形式，使其能够在各处、在街道、在法庭、在军队、在教堂、在文本、在书籍中定位自己。

And so it has this kind of manifold diversity, right, that makes it very adaptable.

因此它具有这种多样性，对吧，这使得它具有很强的适应性。

So one of the things you mentioned that Constantine did not anticipate, did not realize, is that Christianity creates divisions between various groups.

所以你提到的君士坦丁没有预料到、没有意识到的一件事是基督教在不同群体之间造成了分裂。

So in part, this is, happens when you have religions that make exclusive claims, right?

因此，在某种程度上，当你有宗教提出排他性主张时，就会发生这种情况，对吧？

1:41:53 Like, my beliefs are true- …

就像，我的信念是真实的——……

and yours are by definition false.

而你的根据定义是错误的。

Not, not just wrong, but false and even kind of evil.

不，不仅是错误的，而且是错误的，甚至是邪恶的。

Like maybe— …

就像也许——……

Satan put them in your mind to- …

撒旦把它们放在你的脑海里，以便——……

lead you astray, right?

让你误入歧途，对吗？

And this is inherently divisive.

这本质上是分裂的。

Like, it is.

就像，确实如此。

So there’s this paradox where Christianity, in contrast to, say, the ancient religions, is both far more polarizing but also far more powerful as a unifying force at the same time, right?

因此，存在这样一个悖论：与古代宗教相比，基督教既更加两极分化，同时作为一种统一力量也更加强大，对吗？

So ancient religions tended not to produce this kind of conflict or identities, right, or wars or these kinds of things.

所以古代宗教往往不会产生这种冲突或身份、权利、战争或此类事情。

And they could under certain circumstances, but for the most part, they were not drivers of history in this kind of way.

在某些情况下他们可以，但在大多数情况下，他们不是以这种方式推动历史的。

1:42:47 But when you have exclusive claims, then suddenly these very communities that are sort of consolidated and have this very strong identity, but you also alienate other groups— …

但是，当你拥有排他性主张时，突然之间，这些社区就得到了巩固，并具有非常强烈的身份，但你也疏远了其他群体——……

that you then are in conflict with.

那么你就会与之发生冲突。

So this is why I, for one, can’t come down on whether, you know, Christianity is more of a unifying force or a divisive force in the history of the Eastern Empire, because it’s both.

因此，这就是为什么我不能断定基督教在东帝国历史上是一种团结力量还是分裂力量，因为两者兼而有之。

And also trying to figure out whether the unifying or the divisive aspects are a feature or a bug.

并且还试图弄清楚统一或分裂的方面是一个功能还是一个错误。

Right.

正确的。

Maybe some of the divisive elements is a way for society internally to try to, much like the civil wars, to try to figure itself out.

也许某些分裂因素是社会内部试图解决自身问题的一种方式，就像内战一样。

Yes.

是的。

So sometimes tension and conflict is a good mechanism for figuring out what do the people want.

因此，有时紧张和冲突是了解人们想要什么的良好机制。

Or what’s the truth, right?

或者说真相是什么，对吗？

Or what’s the truth.

或者说真相是什么。

Yeah.

是的。

1:43:39 So the story that it likes to tell itself is that there’s this, like, this one original truth, and the hardcore of true believers is defending that truth at every moment against all of these evil heretics who are coming in-

所以它喜欢告诉自己的故事是，有这样一个原始真理，真正的信徒的铁杆成员每时每刻都在捍卫这一真理，反对所有这些即将到来的邪恶异端——

1:43:52 …

……

and trying to corrupt it.

并试图破坏它。

In reality, what happens is that this truth is something that’s evolving in the course of the controversies.

事实上，这个事实是在争议过程中不断演变的。

And, like, often they don’t know that they believed that until in retrospect, once they’ve had the fight and the winner has this position, oh, now that turns out to have been the position we always held, right?

而且，就像，他们常常不知道自己相信这一点，直到回想起来，一旦他们进行了战斗并且获胜者占据了这个位置，哦，现在事实证明这就是我们一直持有的位置，对吗？

And this happens again and again and again.

这种情况一而再、再而三地发生。

You know, a lot of the time, these Christian theologians who get into so much trouble and get branded as heretics and sometimes get sent into exile, they didn’t mean any harm.

你知道，很多时候，这些基督教神学家陷入如此多的麻烦，被贴上异教徒的标签，有时甚至被流放，他们并没有任何恶意。

They often just were stating what they thought everybody believed.

他们常常只是在陈述他们认为每个人都相信的事情。

1:44:31 And then when they blurt it out, someone off in Alexandria is like, “What?

然后当他们脱口而出时，亚历山大的某人会说：“什么？

That’s heresy.” And then now you’re, now you’re in trouble.

这是异端邪说。”然后现在你就有麻烦了。

Now you’re getting into this fight, and you might win, you might lose.

现在你正在参加这场战斗，你可能会赢，也可能会输。

But, like, a lot of them were kind of sort of well-intentioned in that way, or they had no intention of starting a fight.

但是，他们中的很多人都是出于好意，或者他们无意发起战斗。

But there’s always someone who wants to start a fight.

但总有人想挑衅。

Yeah, I mean, sometimes the fights are extremely intense over things that I could see on the surface or, like, iconography.

是的，我的意思是，有时候，对于我在表面上看到的东西或者像图像这样的事情，争论非常激烈。

1:44:49 It’s like, it seems like a very subtle- …

就好像，这似乎是一个非常微妙的——……

debate, like almost academic.

辩论，几乎像学术辩论一样。

And then a large number of people don’t see it as academic.

然后很多人并不认为它是学术的。

They, they do see it like “the devil put ideas in your head that are—” …

他们，他们确实认为这就像“魔鬼把想法放进你的脑袋里——”......

completely wrong, and it’s, it’s fascinating how that kind of division can emerge.

这是完全错误的，而且这种分裂是如何出现的，真是令人着迷。

I mean, the impossible question, and I apologize for asking it, but maybe just worthwhile to try to think about it is, on the grand scale of centuries of the East Roman Empire, is religion a constructive or a destructive force for the empire?

我的意思是，这是一个不可能的问题，我很抱歉问这个问题，但也许值得尝试思考的是，在东罗马帝国几个世纪的宏大规模上，宗教对帝国来说是建设性的还是破坏性的力量？

Did it help it flourish, or did it hold it back?

它是帮助它蓬勃发展，还是阻碍了它的发展？

This society identified itself increasingly with what it saw as orthodoxy.

这个社会越来越认同它所认为的正统观念。

1:45:41 Orthodoxy just means correct belief.

正统只是意味着正确的信仰。

I mean-

我的意思是——

1:45:49 …

……

like every religion ultimately thinks it’s orthodox, right?

就像每个宗教最终都认为自己是正统的一样，对吗？

That’s– But that’s the conventional name, right?

那是——但那是传统的名字，对吧？

Orthodoxy today might be called Greek Orthodoxy.

今天的东正教可能被称为希腊东正教。

And I mean, it’s such an essential part of the culture.

我的意思是，这是文化的重要组成部分。

It really is.

确实如此。

I can’t think of the two of them inde…

我实在想不到他们两个……

I mean, I try to because, as a historian, I have to test the models, you know, and try to see these things as independent of each other.

我的意思是，我尝试这样做是因为，作为一名历史学家，我必须测试这些模型，你知道，并尝试将这些事物视为彼此独立的。

But ultimately, it’s very difficult to disentangle them, and I would say that to the degree that this is a successful society historically, that its religion definitely contributed to that and played a role in it.

但最终，要解开它们是非常困难的，我想说的是，从历史上这是一个成功的社会的角度来看，它的宗教肯定对此做出了贡献并在其中发挥了作用。

Not without cost, right?

不是没有代价的，对吧？

It mattered to them.

这对他们很重要。

They valued it, but things that matter to you have a cost.

他们很重视它，但对你来说重要的事情是有代价的。

1:46:38 And, and they, they paid that price.

而且，他们付出了这个代价。

They were willing to pay that price for it.

他们愿意为此付出这个代价。

For example, at the very end, they had to choose between Catholicism, Western rule, where they essentially have to compromise on their faith, or rule by Muslims, the Turks, where they would not have to compromise their faith.

例如，最后，他们必须在天主教、西方统治之间做出选择，在西方统治下，他们基本上必须在信仰上妥协；或者在穆斯林、土耳其人统治下，他们不必在信仰上妥协。

And some of them were explicit that they were preferring option B, because the Turks will at least respect our identity.

他们中的一些人明确表示他们更喜欢选项B，因为土耳其人至少会尊重我们的身份。

Like, that’s a cost.

就像，这是一个成本。

Yeah.

是的。

1:47:09 But there’s other layers, like taxation and- …

但还有其他层面，比如税收和……

the, the, the functions of government- …

政府的职能——……

that are connected to religion to the degree it interacts with the, the tax system.

它们与宗教的联系程度取决于它与税收制度的相互作用。

But it feels like that’s the engine of the society and, and religion is more like the cultural layer.

但感觉这就是社会的引擎，而宗教更像是文化层。

Yeah.

是的。

1:47:27 So this is why I said that I try in thinking of the models that we use to understand the society, not to assume that religion is everywhere and for everything.

所以这就是为什么我说我尝试思考我们用来理解社会的模型，而不是假设宗教无处不在、适用于一切。

Now, I have colleagues who do that, and I would disagree with them about this, but you’re exactly right.

现在，我有同事这样做，我不同意他们的观点，但你是完全正确的。

There are elements of this society that I like to see as their own thing.

我喜欢将这个社会的某些元素视为自己的东西。

1:47:50 Like the Roman identity, for example.

例如，就像罗马身份一样。

It’s not the same as Orthodoxy.

这与东正教不一样。

But also the operations of the state.

还有国家的运作。

Those are very pragmatic things, and you see them intersect with religion in, largely in areas of terminology or the vocabulary that they use or, you know, like at the top, but not at their actual functioning.

这些都是非常务实的事情，你可以看到它们与宗教有交叉，主要是在他们使用的术语或词汇领域，或者你知道，就像在顶部，但不是在它们的实际功能上。

So in my field, I’m a historian who’s tried to promote other aspects of the culture as having a kind of integrity of their own and not to subsume them all within Orthodoxy.

因此，在我的领域，我是一名历史学家，他试图促进文化的其他方面具有自己的完整性，而不是将它们全部纳入正统教义之中。

So, I mean, again, an impossible way of asking the same question.

所以，我的意思是，再一次以一种不可能的方式提出同样的问题。

1:48:28 If you asked a Roman, a million Romans across a thousand years, “Are you a Roman or a Christian?” what would be the answer for that?

如果你问一个罗马人，一千年的一百万罗马人，“你是罗马人还是基督徒？”答案是什么？

Oh, both.

哦，两者都有。

1:48:45 Oh, absolutely.

哦，绝对是。

No, you don’t get to say both.

不，你不能两者都说。

1:48:47 You’re not allowed to do that.

你不被允许这样做。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

1:48:49 It’s the-

这是——

Well, you’re-

好吧，你是——

It’s the true answer.

这是正确的答案。

Okay.

好的。

1:48:52 So you’re saying they’re really tied together.

所以你是说他们真的联系在一起。

Well, they overlap.

嗯，它们重叠了。

1:48:55 But if you were to…

但如果你要……

And this might be a somewhat more subtle conversation than most of them would want to have, but if you were to say, “Is Roman and Christian the same thing to you?” If they thought about it for a little while, they’d quickly be able to say no.

这可能是一个比大多数人想要的更微妙的对话，但如果你说，“对你来说罗马和基督教是一回事吗？”如果他们想一想，他们很快就能拒绝。

Because there were, I mean, just logically, there were Christians who were not Romans.

因为，我的意思是，从逻辑上讲，有些基督徒不是罗马人。

1:49:20 The Bulgarians or the Rus or, you know, whoever.

保加利亚人或罗斯人，或者你知道的，无论是谁。

There were lots of Christians who were not Roman, and they did not regard them as Roman just because they were Christian.

有很多基督徒不是罗马人，他们并不因为他们是基督徒而将他们视为罗马人。

Conversely, they knew perfectly well that there had been Romans who were not Christians, and they knew this how?

相反，他们非常清楚，罗马人中也有非基督徒，但他们是怎么知道的呢？

Because in the churches like almost every week, they celebrated martyrs who had been killed by the Roman emperors in the past.

因为在教堂里，几乎每周都会庆祝过去被罗马皇帝杀害的殉道者。

And so it was, like, the performance of violence by Roman emperors against Christians was, like, something they remembered.

因此，罗马皇帝对基督徒的暴力行为就像他们所记得的那样。

They knew perfectly well.

他们非常清楚。

So those two things did not overlap perfectly.

所以这两件事并不完美重叠。

1:49:55 And there were some contexts in which you would be more Roman, and there were some contexts in which you would be more Christian.

在某些情况下，你会更加罗马化，而在某些情况下，你会更加基督教化。

And you find characters who, and I love to do this.

你会发现我喜欢这样做的人物。

I find characters who as some sources say didn’t pay too much attention to Christian things.

正如一些消息来源所说，我发现一些人物并没有过多关注基督教的事物。

Like, they were just politicians.

就像，他们只是政客。

They were just doing their work.

他们只是在做他们的工作。

And then you find characters who, like, devote themselves.

然后你会发现那些愿意奉献自己的人物。

They go all in on Orthodoxy and, like, monasticism.

他们全力支持东正教和修道院制度。

They just don’t care about the Roman stuff at all.

他们根本不关心罗马的东西。

1:50:25 And that is, in fact, part of the reason why I like this society, is because it has these kinds of options for people to choose.

事实上，这就是我喜欢这个社会的部分原因，因为它有这些选择供人们选择。

And there’s another one.

还有另外一个。

There’s the Greek stuff, too, because their language is Greek, their literature is Greek, and so there are people in the society who go all in on the Greek stuff.

还有希腊的东西，因为他们的语言是希腊的，他们的文学是希腊的，所以社会上有人全力投入希腊的东西。

Right?

正确的？

And I see this society as this kind of laboratory of these three elements coexisting in these fascinating combinations.

我将这个社会视为这三种元素以这些迷人的组合共存的实验室。

Usually it’s combinations, right?

通常都是组合，对吧？

But sometimes you’ll find people who are like, kinda try to be purists in one way or another.

但有时你会发现有人试图以某种方式成为纯粹主义者。

And it’s the only society in history in which you can do this, ’cause it’s the only society that’s Roman and Christian and Greek.

这是历史上唯一可以做到这一点的社会，因为它是唯一一个罗马、基督教和希腊的社会。

But in different ways, right?

但方式不同，对吧？

Yeah, unfortunately, I think it’s tempting, but it’s probably impossible to say if we remove the taxation system, would the, would the Roman Empire be more or less successful?

是的，不幸的是，我认为这很诱人，但可能不可能说如果我们取消税收制度，罗马帝国会或多或少成功吗？

1:51:06 If we removed religion, would it be more or less successful?

如果我们消除宗教，它会或多或少成功吗？

If we removed Greek and kept it Latin all the way through, would it be more or less successful?

如果我们去掉希腊语并一直保留拉丁语，它会或多或少成功吗？

It’s probably impossible to do this kind of analysis ’cause they’re all so deeply integrated.

进行这种分析可能是不可能的，因为它们都如此深度集成。

And fundamentally, it also wouldn’t be what it was.

从根本上说，它也不会是原来的样子。

1:51:33 It would be something different.

这会是不同的事情。

But there is a big temptation, and this is at the core of your work, to understand why did the East Roman Empire last as long as it did.

但有一个很大的诱惑，这就是你工作的核心，去理解为什么东罗马帝国能够持续这么久。

1:51:39 And why did the broader Roman Empire last as long as it did?

为什么更广泛的罗马帝国能够持续这么久？

Because it is one of, if not the most successful empires in terms of duration and stability in a very dense part of the world.

因为就世界人口稠密地区的持续时间和稳定性而言，即使不是最成功的帝国，它也是之一。

That’s actually like my next project.

这实际上就像我的下一个项目。

1:52:02 I’m starting to write a book trying to explain, just kind of from an analytical standpoint, why.

我开始写一本书，试图从分析的角度解释原因。

How did it last so long?

怎么持续了这么久？

1:52:11 A lot of your work kinda hints at it.

你的很多工作都暗示了这一点。

It’s here and there.

它无处不在。

But you’re trying to do more systematic.

但你正试图做得更系统化。

So, and we’ll keep hinting at it.

所以，我们会不断暗示这一点。

But to put a bow tie on Constantinople, it went from a very low population of maybe 25,000 people to 500,000 people in just two centuries.

但要给君士坦丁堡打上领结，它的人口在短短两个世纪内就从大约 25,000 人的极低人口增加到了 500,000 人。

So can you explain how that happened?

那么你能解释一下这是怎么发生的吗？

Well, it didn’t happen through just demographic growth and reproduction in the city itself.

嗯，这不仅仅是通过城市本身的人口增长和再生产来实现的。

1:52:37 That rate of growth is impossible for an ancient city.

这样的增长速度对于一座古城来说是不可能的。

So when I say 20,000, 25,000, that’s possibly what the ancient city of Byzantium had-

所以当我说20,000、25,000时，这可能就是拜占庭古城所拥有的——

1:52:53 …

……

when Constantine decided to found Constantinople, and it grew to a city of a half a million in two centuries.

当君士坦丁决定建立君士坦丁堡时，它在两个世纪内发展成为一座拥有五十万人口的城市。

That can only have been done in one way, and that is immigration from the provinces.

这只能通过一种方式实现，那就是从各省移民。

So people must have been moving there in large numbers, which is a movement that we can’t see very clearly in the sources, but we have to infer it and then try to explain it.

所以人们一定是大量迁移到那里的，这是一种我们在资料中看不到很清楚的运动，但我们必须推断它，然后尝试解释它。

So also there’s another factor, which is that ancient cities we now know or suspect are what some historians call death traps.

所以还有另一个因素，那就是我们现在知道或怀疑的古代城市就是一些历史学家所说的死亡陷阱。

In other words, the density of disease is such that ancient cities probably are losing something like 1, 2, possibly 3% of their population per year.

换句话说，疾病的密度如此之大，以至于古代城市每年可能会失去 1%、2%、甚至 3% 的人口。

So just in order to stay with a stable population, they have to import people.

因此，为了保持稳定的人口，他们必须进口人口。

1:53:49 Right?

正确的？

Now, they’re not like 17th century London.

现在，它们不像 17 世纪的伦敦。

They’re not that bad.

他们并没有那么糟糕。

Do diseases and plagues seem to be prevalent?

疾病和瘟疫似乎很普遍吗？

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

1:53:56 Now, you know, Roman cities have some corrections for these sorts of things, like the way they distribute the water through the city.

现在，你知道，罗马城市对这类事情进行了一些修正，比如他们在城市中分配水的方式。

Anyway, they, they weren’t as bad as they could’ve been, but there’s that.

无论如何，他们并没有想象的那么糟糕，但就是这样。

So not only to keep the population steady, but to expand it so dramatically means that a lot of people are coming in from the provinces, mostly the Greek-speaking provinces.

因此，不仅要保持人口稳定，还要大幅增加人口数量，这意味着大量人口来自外省，其中大部分是希腊语省份。

So, you know, Greece, Asia Minor, and some of the major cities in the East that are Greek-speaking.

所以，你知道，希腊、小亚细亚和东方的一些主要城市都是说希腊语的。

And I start to wonder, like, well, how did this happen?

我开始想，就像，这是怎么发生的？

Like, who are these people, for one thing?

一方面，这些人是谁？

And then I did some simple calculations.

然后我做了一些简单的计算。

So I mentioned earlier that we have something like two and a half thousand senators-

所以我之前提到我们有大约二千名参议员——

1:54:40 …

……

Who are required initially to reside in Constantinople.

他们最初需要居住在君士坦丁堡。

Well, senators don’t live in bachelor pads.

好吧，参议员并不住在单身汉公寓里。

Senators have manors.

参议员有庄园。

They have household staff, right?

他们有家政人员，对吗？

In Rome at the time, there’s a calculation that a senatorial household was something like 100 people, right?

在当时的罗马，有一个计算，一个元老院家族大概有100人吧？

Just servants, slaves, dancing girls, cooks, barbers, whatever, right?

只是仆人、奴隶、舞女、厨师、理发师等等，对吧？

So let’s assume sort of conservatively that in Constantinople it’s only 30 people, which might be low, right?

因此，让我们保守地假设君士坦丁堡只有 30 人，这个数字可能很低，对吧？

So if you do the math, you’re starting to get something like, I mean, closer to 100,000 people, right?

所以如果你算一下，你就会开始得到类似的结果，我的意思是，接近 100,000 人，对吗？

And that’s just by bringing in senators.

这只是通过引入参议员来实现的。

1:55:22 Right?

正确的？

They come with people.

他们和人一起来。

So I think this was the nucleus of the population.

所以我认为这是人口的核心。

Now then Constantine also makes provision for possibly up to like 200,000 people to receive the, the grain dole, the bread.

现在君士坦丁还为可能多达 20 万人提供了粮食救济金和面包。

So that would’ve incentivized even more people to travel there because there are-

所以这会激励更多的人去那里旅行，因为有-

So you get free bread.

这样你就可以得到免费的面包。

Yes.

是的。

1:55:47 And you can’t live on that alone, but it is, it’s something.

你不能仅靠这个生活，但它确实是，它是某种东西。

Incentive.

激励。

1:55:51 Is it true that he diverted resources from Rome to Constantinople?

他真的将资源从罗马转移到君士坦丁堡吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

1:55:55 Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

That grain, that’s coming from Egypt.

那些谷物，来自埃及。

So New Rome is literally stealing food from the mouth of Old Rome.

所以新罗马实际上是从旧罗马的嘴里偷食物。

Now, Old Rome doesn’t starve because they, they divert other…

现在，老罗马并没有挨饿，因为他们，他们转移了其他……

Like from North Africa and Sicily, you can feed Rome, right?

就像来自北非和西西里岛一样，你可以养活罗马，对吧？

But it sends a strong signal to the people living in Old Rome that long term we should probably move.

但它向生活在古罗马的人们发出了一个强烈的信号：从长远来看，我们可能应该搬家。

Some people do move.

有些人确实会动。

1:56:18 So we know of some senators who move from Rome.

我们知道一些参议员是从罗马搬来的。

It sends a signal about the priorities of the state, like they’re investing much more in the East.

它发出了关于该州优先事项的信号，就像他们在东部进行了更多投资一样。

And that the East would be regarded as an equal parallel Roman, you know, world.

东方将被视为一个平等的平行罗马世界。

Yeah.

是的。

As we talk about diverting resources, slowly the West declines and collapses in 476 AD.

当我们谈论转移资源时，西方在公元 476 年慢慢衰落和崩溃。

1:56:33 So the Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD, and in 476 AD, the last Western emperor is deposed, marking the end of the Western Roman Empire.

于是西哥特人于公元410年洗劫了罗马，公元476年，最后一位西方皇帝被废黜，标志着西罗马帝国的终结。

High-level question: What is the reason for that decline and the collapse of the Western Roman Empire?

高层次问题：西罗马帝国衰落和崩溃的原因是什么？

So nonstop civil wars, as we’ve talked about, weak emperors.

正如我们所谈论的，无休无止的内战，软弱的皇帝。

There’s an economic money crisis, so shrinking tax base, rising army costs.

存在经济货币危机，税基不断缩小，军队成本不断上升。

There was a loss of key provinces, especially in North Africa.

主要省份的损失，尤其是北非。

Reliance on contracted barbarian troops as they immigrated more and more into- …

随着野蛮人越来越多地移民到——……

The Western Roman Empire.

西罗马帝国。

Cascading invasions, migrations amplified by Hun pressure, and then the East-West split.

一系列的入侵、匈奴压力下的移民扩张，以及东西方的分裂。

The richer East survives, the West can’t stabilize under- …

富裕的东方得以幸存，而西方则无法在……

that split.

那个分裂。

Yeah.

是的。

1:57:48 The crux of the matter is that barbarian armies, so armies from outside the empire, put increasing pressure on it during the fifth century.

问题的关键在于，野蛮军队，即来自帝国之外的军队，在五世纪期间对帝国施加了越来越大的压力。

And for whatever reason, when the Roman state failed to sort of suppress one of them and, say, settled them here or allowed them to have here or couldn’t stop them and they took over a province like the Vandals did in North Africa- …

不管出于什么原因，当罗马国家未能镇压其中一个人，比如说，将他们安置在这里或允许他们留在这里，或者无法阻止他们，他们就像汪达尔人在北非那样占领了一个省份——……

this created this kind of vicious cycle because then the Roman state lost access to the resources from those provinces, that is the taxes, and without those resources, they couldn’t, you know, maintain, mobilize, pay for their armies.

这造成了这种恶性循环，因为罗马国家失去了从这些省份获得资源的机会，即税收，如果没有这些资源，他们就无法，你知道，维持、动员、支付军队费用。

1:58:28 Then they had fewer armies to handle the next wave of barbarians that came in.

然后他们的军队就更少了，无法应对下一波到来的野蛮人。

The previous barbarians who settled kind of declared their kind of independence.

先前定居的野蛮人某种程度上宣布了他们的独立。

They also could not be put down, and so this created a vicious cycle that just continued in that way.

他们也无法被放下，所以这就形成了一个恶性循环，就这样持续下去。

It’s not rocket science, actually.

实际上，这不是火箭科学。

I mean, you can see it playing out.

我的意思是，你可以看到它正在上演。

Yeah.

是的。

Now, who these groups are, where they came from, why did they cross, that, that, those are different questions, right?

现在，这些群体是谁，他们来自哪里，他们为什么穿越，那个，那个，这些都是不同的问题，对吧？

But from the Roman standpoint, that’s how it was experienced.

但从罗马人的角度来看，这就是经历的方式。

These are armies that can defeat a Roman field army-

这些军队可以击败罗马野战军——

1:59:03 …

……

right, in battle.

对了，在战斗中。

And sometimes they do.

有时他们会这样做。

And they then settle and take over territories, and then you lose the revenues, and so you can’t recruit your own armies.

然后他们定居并占领领土，然后你就失去了收入，所以你无法招募自己的军队。

And so, anyway, that, that’s the kind of cycle.

所以，无论如何，这就是这样的循环。

The East tried to help.

东方试图提供帮助。

Occasionally, they would send forces, but they were also subject to some of the same pressures.

偶尔他们也会出兵，但也同样会受到一些压力。

‘Cause remember, the Goths cross the Danube for the first time in a major way in 376.

因为请记住，哥特人在 376 年首次大规模跨越多瑙河。

Then you have the Battle of Adrianople a couple years later, where, like, one and a half field armies is just annihilated, and the Emperor Valens dies, and the Goths are just, like, kind of loose in the Balkans.

几年后，发生了阿德里安堡之战，一支半野战军被歼灭，瓦伦斯皇帝去世，哥特人在巴尔干地区陷入了松散。

And there was then a long war with them, four years.

然后与他们进行了长达四年的长期战争。

1:59:44 It results in a kind of truce where neither side wins, and the Romans, for the first time, accept the presence of this quasi-independent Gothic army in the territory of the empire.

这导致了一种双方都没有获胜的休战，罗马人第一次接受了这支准独立的哥特军队在帝国领土上的存在。

This is unprecedented, as I said, and it creates a lot of tensions and dysfunctions.

正如我所说，这是前所未有的，它造成了很多紧张和功能障碍。

Okay, so why does the East survive and the West does not, right?

好吧，那为什么东方能生存下来，而西方却不能，对吧？

2:00:08 There’s…

有……

And so…

所以……

Lots of reasons that we can give here, but one of them is the geography that we were talking about earlier.

我们可以在这里给出很多原因，但其中之一是我们之前讨论过的地理位置。

In other words, without a fleet, which they don’t have, the Goths can’t cross over from Thrace or the western Balkans to Asia Minor and go plunder some of the more prosperous provinces.

换句话说，如果没有舰队（哥特人没有），哥特人就无法从色雷斯或巴尔干西部穿越到小亚细亚，并掠夺一些更繁荣的省份。

So they’re stuck in the Balkans.

所以他们被困在巴尔干地区。

They’re gradually pushed kind of in toward the western Balkans, which is, like, the worst part, you know, at the time, like, you wanna be in.

他们逐渐被推向西巴尔干地区，那是最糟糕的部分，你知道，当时，就像你想进入的那样。

And eventually, they just decide, “Well, you know, it’s kinda nicer in Naples.” And so they go to Italy, right?

最终，他们决定，“嗯，你知道，那不勒斯更好一些。”所以他们去了意大利，对吗？

Just because there’s just a lot more resources there for them.

只是因为他们有更多的资源。

And that’s one way that the East just kind of manages to…

这就是东方设法做到的一种方式……

2:00:54 It doesn’t do this deliberately, but the geography kind of pushes these invaders to the West.

它并不是故意这样做的，但地理因素将这些入侵者推向了西方。

So that’s one.

这就是其中之一。

2:01:00 So geography is some of it’s sort of the luck of geography and- …

所以地理在某种程度上是地理的运气，而且——……

both of the invaders and the geography of the empire.

入侵者和帝国的地理。

But, you know, the, the East had a lot of invaders since- …

但是，你知道，东方有很多入侵者，因为……

and was able to still barely at times- …

有时还勉强能——……

survive the invaders, so…

在入侵者中幸存下来，所以……

And some of that could be luck.

其中一些可能是运气。

Some of it could be about the nature of the invaders and the effectiveness of their military, all that kind of stuff.

其中一些可能是关于入侵者的本质和他们军队的有效性，诸如此类的事情。

By the way, it worked in the other direction, too.

顺便说一下，它在另一个方向上也起作用。

2:01:30 So if you have, like, Persians or Arabs coming into Asia Minor from the East, they usually can’t cross over into your Balkan provinces.

因此，如果有波斯人或阿拉伯人从东方进入小亚细亚，他们通常无法进入巴尔干省份。

So you can fall back on one side or the other side.

所以你可以向后退到一侧或另一侧。

They…

他们……

If you fortified Constantinople so that it’s an impregnable bunker, which it was, right?

如果你加固君士坦丁堡，使其成为坚不可摧的碉堡，事实确实如此，对吗？

So you, you’re holding your command center in Constantinople.

所以你，你控制着君士坦丁堡的指挥中心。

You can alternate between your European or your Asian provinces, depending on where the trouble is.

您可以根据问题所在的位置在欧洲或亚洲省份之间切换。

You can call in reinforcements from either side.

你可以从任何一方呼叫增援。

So the East does have that kind of advantage.

所以东方确实有这样的优势。

This is not the reason why it survives for as long as it does, though it is a reason.

这并不是它能够长久存在的原因，尽管这是一个原因。

You know, also, they acquire flamethrowers at some point, which- …

你也知道，他们在某个时候获得了火焰喷射器，这——……

those help, too.

这些也有帮助。

2:02:12 Right?

正确的？

Ultimately, I think it’s the decision made by local communities to stick with the Roman state, like, ultimately.

最终，我认为这是当地社区做出的决定，最终还是坚持罗马国家。

Like, they’re not going to actively side with invaders.

就像，他们不会积极地站在入侵者一边。

And when the trouble passes, they restore communities with Constantinople immediately.

当麻烦过去后，他们立即恢复与君士坦丁堡的社区。

Like, this is their natural political home.

就像，这是他们天然的政治家园。

And, and that’s the question that I’m really trying to answer, like, why does that happen?

这就是我真正想回答的问题，比如，为什么会发生这种情况？

You know, we should say, just, just like we’ve articulated multiple times, that it, the Roman Empire survives- so it’s not like the Roman Empire collapsed and another Byzantine Empire was born.

你知道，我们应该说，就像我们多次阐明的那样，罗马帝国幸存了下来——所以这不像罗马帝国崩溃了，另一个拜占庭帝国诞生了。

2:02:36 Really, there is a shift that happens, and part of that shift is because of Constantine, right?

确实，发生了转变，而这种转变的部分原因是康斯坦丁，对吗？

It’s not just about where the capital is, but I’m sure that there’s just a general move towards that direction from the West to the East.

这不仅与首都在哪里有关，而且我确信从西方到东方，总体上正在朝着这个方向发展。

And, and that in many ways, you know, weak emperors and, and the West, the weak leaders, the structure of government, all these kinds of elements put together- …

而且，在很多方面，你知道，软弱的皇帝和西方，软弱的领导人，政府的结构，所有这些因素放在一起——……

maybe demographic shifts and declines that have to do with the fact that the center of the empire has moved.

也许人口结构的变化和下降与帝国中心的转移有关。

And so ultimately-

所以最终——

2:03:27 …

……

it’s not that the West Roman Empire collapsed, it is that the center of the Roman Empire shifted.

不是西罗马帝国崩溃了，而是罗马帝国的中心转移了。

And because of that, the historic West collapsed.

正因为如此，历史上的西方崩溃了。

It’s quite striking.

这非常引人注目。

2:03:38 So for example, already by, like in the 430s, Constantinople is basically codifying Roman law for the West.

例如，到了 430 年代，君士坦丁堡基本上已经在为西方编纂罗马法了。

So Roman law in Latin is codified in Constantinople, and then sent to the West as, “Oh, here’s your law code.” And this is in the 430s, so after the alleged division between the two, which like I said, is kind of loose.

因此，拉丁文的罗马法在君士坦丁堡被编成法典，然后发送到西方，“哦，这是你的法典。”这是在 430 年代，所以在两者之间所谓的划分之后，就像我说的，有点松散。

It’s not hard and fast.

这并不困难和快速。

In the 6th century, it is the East that reconquers part of the West under Justinian.

公元六世纪，东方在查士丁尼的统治下重新征服了部分西方地区。

2:04:10 And not only that, he also recodifies Roman law on a much bigger scale, and then that law becomes Western law.

不仅如此，他还更大规模地重新编纂了罗马法，然后该法律就成为了西方法律。

So in a certain sense, Roman law as we know it comes from Constantinople.

所以从某种意义上说，我们所知道的罗马法来自君士坦丁堡。

It doesn’t come from ancient Rome.

它并非来自古罗马。

I mean, ultimately it comes from ancient Rome, but we don’t have those versions of it.

我的意思是，它最终来自古罗马，但我们没有它的那些版本。

We have the East Roman versions of it.

我们有它的东罗马版本。

It is East Rome that reconquers Rome.

是东罗马重新征服了罗马。

This is a funny inversion, you know, because Constantinople is situated in a province, Thrace, which always was sort of considered backwards, right?

你知道，这是一个有趣的倒置，因为君士坦丁堡位于色雷斯省，这个省一直被认为是倒退的，对吧？

In the time of, like, the early Caesars, if you were in Rome and you thought, you know, Thrace, it was like, “Ugh.” It’s like, you know, some sort of, yeah, armpit of the Roman Empire or something, you know?

在早期的凯撒时代，如果你在罗马，你会想，你知道，色雷斯，就像是，“呃。”就像，你知道，某种，是的，罗马帝国的腋窝之类的，你知道吗？

2:04:54 But by Justinian’s time, it’s complete inversion.

但到了查士丁尼时代，情况就完全颠倒了。

Like, the capital of the Roman world, the heart of it is there, and Rome is this kind of backwater provincial city in Italy, you know, that you’ve just liberated from the Goths, and it’s kind of in ruins.

就像罗马世界的首都一样，它的核心就在那里，而罗马是意大利的一种落后省级城市，你知道，你刚刚从哥特人手中解放出来，它已经成了废墟。

There are wolves roaming the streets of the Forum.

论坛的街道上有狼在游荡。

So this is a complete overhaul of the centers of power.

所以这是对权力中心的彻底改革。

It’s turned inside out almost.

几乎翻了个底朝天。

And I think it’s fair to say that the reason the East…

我认为可以公平地说，东方的原因......

2:05:18 Part of the reason the East lasted as long as it did is the topic that we’ve mentioned, which is the structure of government.

东方能持续这么久的部分原因是我们刚才提到的话题，那就是政府结构。

So can we just zoom out once again and explain the key ways the government functioned in the East Roman Empire, and how it evolved over the lifetime of the empire?

那么，我们是否可以再次缩小范围，解释政府在东罗马帝国运作的关键方式，以及它在帝国的一生中是如何演变的？

Very broadly speaking, there’s civilian and military, right?

广义上来说，有民用和军用之分，对吧？

2:05:38 And you might actually add the church.

你实际上可能会添加教堂。

It’s entirely plausible to treat the church as a kind of government institution at this time.

此时将教会视为一种政府机构是完全合理的。

But let’s just stick with military and civilian.

但我们还是只关注军事和民用吧。

The military is pretty straightforward, would be recognizable to any student of military history.

军事非常简单，任何学习军事史的学生都可以认出。

This is how you recruit, organize, equip, pay, and lead soldiers.

这就是你招募、组织、装备、支付和领导士兵的方式。

And the East Roman state tends to have a larger military, at least paper strength.

东罗马国家往往拥有更强大的军事实力，至少是纸面实力。

Active is a different matter.

主动则是另一回事。

Like, how many soldiers you take on a campaign is a different matter, but how many soldiers you maintain, like, in the provinces generally, right, is a…

就像，你在一场战役中带多少士兵是另一回事，但你维持多少士兵，就像一般在各省一样，对吧，是……

It tends to be on the large side for a medieval society, right?

对于中世纪社会来说，它往往偏大，对吗？

2:06:30 So it compares favorably to, say, the Caliphate later on, which is a much more massive territorial entity.

因此，它与后来的哈里发国相比是有利的，哈里发国是一个更大的领土实体。

So the military is that.

所以军队就是这样。

It can have anywhere between 100,000 at a minimum, at a low point, up to maybe about 250,000 at a high point, depending on the period.

根据时期的不同，其最低数量可能在 100,000 左右，最高可达 250,000 左右。

It’s a lot of people.

人很多。

It’s a lot of men.

有很多男人。

Factor in their families, right?

考虑到他们的家庭，对吗？

These are also, like, part of the whole, you know, military economic complex, if you will.

如果你愿意的话，这些也是整个军事经济综合体的一部分。

And they’re career military, so, like, this is their job.

他们是职业军人，所以，这就是他们的工作。

Yes.

是的。

And is the military for most of the history of the East Roman Empire defensive military?

而东罗马帝国历史上大部分军队都是防御性军队吗？

Mostly, but not always.

大多数情况下，但并非总是如此。

And we’ll talk about Justinian.

我们将讨论查士丁尼。

And so then you have the civilian administration.

这样就有了民政管理部门。

2:07:21 Civilian administration does a number of things.

民政管理部门做了很多事情。

Principally, it is to find the funds to pay for this army, which is the single largest expense on the state budget, right?

主要是要找到经费来支付这支军队，这是国家预算中最大的一项开支，对吗？

And so in order to find those funds, it has to have a census of the assets, and it has to be able to tax them, and there are lots of different ways of doing that.

因此，为了找到这些资金，它必须对资产进行普查，并且必须能够对它们征税，并且有很多不同的方法可以做到这一点。

So the civilian administration has a number of tax bureaus, record-keeping, this sort of thing, also a legal branch for resolving disputes with the imperial fisc.

所以民政部门有很多税务局、记录保存之类的东西，也是解决与帝国财政纠纷的法律部门。

Okay.

好的。

But the civilian administration does a number of other things, too.

但民政部门还做许多其他事情。

2:08:00 For example, the whole legal regulation of the empire: the courts, judges, courts of appeal, or also issuing laws, keeping records, all of this.

例如，帝国的整个法律监管：法院、法官、上诉法院，或者还颁布法律、保存记录，所有这些。

And those are the main bureaus that have to do with the subjects of the empire.

这些是与帝国臣民有关的主要部门。

2:08:21 The emperors obviously maintain bureaus that are for things like diplomacy, right, or running the palace staff because the palace is a huge institution, right?

皇帝显然设有负责外交等事务的机构，对吧，或者管理宫廷工作人员，因为皇宫是一个庞大的机构，对吧？

And then there are a number of endowments that, you know, major churches, Hagia Sophia, for example, has hundreds of staff, clergy to, you know, readers to whatever, and so they need to be paid, and so you need endowments.

然后还有一些捐赠基金，你知道，主要的教堂，例如圣索菲亚大教堂，有数百名工作人员、神职人员，你知道，还有读者，所以他们需要得到报酬，所以你需要捐赠基金。

The imperial household, it has expenses, so it needs endowments, right?

皇室呢，有开支，就需要禀赋吧？

So there’s a lot of land that’s earmarked for these kinds of expenses, that requires administration.

因此，有大量土地被指定用于此类费用，需要管理。

So this multiplies, right?

所以这会成倍增加，对吗？

I mean, go on and on and on and on.

我的意思是，继续，继续，继续。

And I’m sure the tax code is not a simple flat tax.

我确信税法不是简单的统一税。

2:08:58 It’s- …

这是——……

probably incredibly complicated.

可能非常复杂。

So it’s just like in the United States, it feels like the majority of the United States is basically lawyers and the IRS.

所以就像在美国一样，感觉美国的大部分基本上都是律师和国税局。

That’s maybe 98%, I think, is lawyers.

我认为这可能 98% 是律师。

Lawyers.

律师。

I’m not sure it’s scientifically-

我不确定这是否科学——

I thought they shrunk the IRS down now to a size that it can’t, like, actually do anything.

我认为他们现在将国税局的规模缩小到了它实际上无能为力的程度。

They shrunk it down-

他们把它缩小了——

I thought it was just-

我以为这只是——

…

……

2:09:26 to just 90% now.

现在只有90%。

90, just 90.

90，只是90。

No.

不。

2:09:29 I think there is something—this is another conversation about human nature and about the nature of governments, but there’s something about, like, I think it’s impossible to have an IRS-type organization that doesn’t grow.

我认为有一些东西——这是关于人性和政府本质的另一场对话，但有一些东西，比如，我认为不可能有一个不成长的国税局类型的组织。

I think maybe with good intentions because you can’t—you have to, like— …

我想也许是出于好意，因为你不能——你必须——……

everybody always comes to you, “Well, I don’t…

每个人总是来找你，“好吧，我不......

Here’s my special case.

这是我的特殊情况。

I want my tax to be lower.” And they kind of add another line.

我希望我的税能降低一些。”他们还添加了另一条线。

“All right, if you have— …

“好吧，如果你有——……

purple hair, you—”

紫色头发，你——”

Right, right.

对，对。

…

……

2:10:06 the tax decrease.

税收减少。

And so you keep adding, and then of course, the more you add, the more opaque the thing becomes.

所以你不断地添加，然后当然，你添加的越多，事情就变得越不透明。

Therefore, corruption seeps in or, you know, maybe not like official corruption, but— …

因此，腐败渗透进来，或者，你知道，也许不像官员腐败，但是——……

corruption light, and then that tax code grows, and then all of a sudden you have these big institutions that then—

腐败现象轻了，然后税法就增长了，然后突然间你就拥有了这些大型机构，然后——

Yes

是的

…

……

2:10:26 encourage corruption, and then there’s a bureaucracy, and there’s a momentum, and this is just how humans are.

鼓励腐败，然后就有了官僚主义，就有了势头，这就是人的样子。

Yes.

是的。

2:10:32 So this happens in East Roman society too.

所以这种情况也发生在东罗马社会。

I’ll give you some examples.

我给你举一些例子。

So there’s not a tax code as such, but what you— The way it operates is through basically exemptions.

因此，并没有税法本身，但它的运作方式基本上是通过豁免。

So you petition for an exemption.

所以你申请豁免。

You might be a monastery, you might be a wealthy— You might be someone well-connected to the court.

你可能是一个寺院，你可能是一个富人，你可能是一个与朝廷关系密切的人。

You might be a struggling provincial village, and you petition the emperor or some official, and you say, “Hey, we know we had a bad season,” or, “The barbarians came through and they took all of our…

你可能是一个苦苦挣扎的省级村庄，你向皇帝或某个官员请愿，你说，“嘿，我们知道我们度过了一个糟糕的季节，”或者，“野蛮人来了，他们夺走了我们所有的……

We can’t pay the taxes.

我们无法缴税。

Could we have an exemption?” And emperors often are granting these exemptions for very specific things, like maybe for this year or for that tax or whatever.

我们可以申请豁免吗？”皇帝经常会针对非常具体的事情给予这些豁免，比如今年或税收或其他什么。

2:11:15 The problem is that the emperors are discovering every once in a while that their officials are granting these exemptions sort of on their own.

问题在于，皇帝们时不时地发现他们的官员会自行授予这些豁免。

So every once in a while, the emperors have to, like, clear house when they have to, like, cancel all of these exemptions and start the whole process again.

因此，每隔一段时间，皇帝就必须清理内部空间，取消所有这些豁免并重新开始整个过程​​。

But later on, once we start to have documentation, like maybe in the 11th century, we see that every little—well, not every, but we have all these monasteries, these little villages, these high officials, and they all have these documents that give them exemption from this or that or the other thing, and it gets so complicated, and that’s how it works.

但后来，一旦我们开始有了文件，就像在11世纪，我们看到每一点——好吧，不是每一个，但是我们有所有这些修道院，这些小村庄，这些高级官员，他们都有这些文件，使他们免受这个或那个或其他事情的影响，事情变得如此复杂，这就是它的运作方式。

But it is the engine of society that makes the whole thing work, ’cause you have to fund—I mean, there’s infrastructure projects, but you have to also fund the army, and the army’s necessary to defend against all the military incursions.

但让整个事情运转起来的是社会的引擎，因为你必须资助——我的意思是，有基础设施项目，但你也必须资助军队，而军队是防御所有军事入侵所必需的。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

A good fraction of the bureaucracy seemed to have been eunuchs, which are castrated men.

官僚机构中很大一部分似乎是太监，即被阉割的男人。

2:12:03 Can you explain why this was a prominent thing?

您能解释一下为什么这是一件突出的事情吗？

The eunuchs are part of the household staff of the emperor.

太监是皇帝的内务人员的一部分。

2:12:11 So that would be like—what would it be?

那么那就像是——会是什么？

The West Wing of the White House or something like this.

白宫西翼或类似的地方。

So they are the people who handle the imperial person, the bedchamber, the organization of palace life—things like banquets, you know, these kinds of things—the wardrobe.

所以他们是处理皇室人物、寝宫、宫廷生活组织的人——比如宴会，你知道的，这类事情——衣柜。

And why are they important?

为什么它们很重要？

So for, for starters, if you’re, like, physically with the emperor all day, right?

所以，首先，如果你整天和皇帝在一起，对吧？

Like, you’re handling the meetings, you’re…

就像，你正在主持会议，你......

Right?

对吗？

People can come to you and say, “Hey, I need you to put in a good word for whatever,” right?

人们可以来找你说：“嘿，我需要你为任何事情说几句好话，”对吗？

So they can get things done.

这样他们就能把事情做好。

So you, you bribe them, they get things done.

所以你贿赂他们，他们就能把事情做好。

So they’re very useful in this way.

所以它们在这方面非常有用。

They’re also kind of hated for that reason.

由于这个原因，他们也有点被讨厌。

2:12:57 Right?

正确的？

But they’re also kind of there to be hated.

但他们也有可能被讨厌。

In other words, they soak up a lot of the frustration that people sometimes feel when they’re not getting, you know, what they want from the court.

换句话说，当人们没有从法庭得到他们想要的东西时，他们有时会感到沮丧，他们会承受很多挫败感。

Okay.

好的。

That’s one thing.

这是一回事。

Here’s the other thing that’s more interesting.

这是另一件更有趣的事情。

How do you as an emperor make sure that your bureaucracy doesn’t displace you?

作为皇帝，你如何确保你的官僚机构不会取代你？

Like, if the bureaucracy is handling all the matters of running the empire, what do we need you for?

就像，如果官僚机构正在处理管理帝国的所有事务，我们需要你做什么？

Right?

正确的？

Like, the bureaucracy can develop rules of its own-

就像，官僚机构可以制定自己的规则——

2:13:29 …

……

for solving all the problems, for dealing with petitions and exemptions and whatever.

解决所有问题，处理请愿和豁免等等。

Like, they can do it.

就像，他们可以做到。

So where’s your power exactly?

那么你的力量到底在哪里呢？

So what the emperors did not want is to be displaced or overshadowed by these kinds of more impersonal institutions.

因此，皇帝们不希望被这些更加客观的机构所取代或掩盖。

And so they would often set up parallel tracks of power.

因此他们经常会建立平行的权力轨道。

So this could be a bit confusing.

所以这可能有点令人困惑。

So eunuchs were perfect for this reason because often their origin was from outside the empire, or they were former slaves.

因此，太监是完美的，因为他们往往来自帝国之外，或者他们以前是奴隶。

They weren’t connected to, like, networks of powerful families.

他们与权势家族的网络没有联系。

2:14:04 So you knew that they would generally be loyal to you because they depended entirely on you, the emperor, for their position and their power.

所以你知道他们通常会忠于你，因为他们的地位和权力完全依赖于你，皇帝。

And what you would sometimes do is you’d say, “Okay, I’m putting you in charge of, like, this army.” Literally, like putting you in charge of an army, just so that you can counterbalance the kind of networks of established generals, and you’ll have, like, no, a eunuch from my wardrobe.

有时你会说：“好吧，我让你负责这支军队。”从字面上看，就像让你负责一支军队，这样你就可以平衡现有将军的网络，然后你就会从我的衣柜里得到一个太监。

You know, I’m putting him in charge.

你知道，我让他负责。

And so this kind of shook things up a little bit so that people who were part of a system or a network could never fully count that that could get them all the power that they wanted.

因此，这种情况发生了一些变化，以至于属于系统或网络一部分的人们永远无法完全相信这可以让他们获得他们想要的所有权力。

They now they have to answer to this eunuch from the wardrobe who’s, like, outside of their system.

他们现在必须对这个衣柜里的太监负责，他就像在他们的系统之外。

2:14:45 And sometimes these eunuchs were extremely competent, like Narses, Justinian’s general, who defeated the Goths in Italy in this massive battle.

有时这些太监非常能干，比如查士丁尼的将军纳尔西斯，他在这场大规模的战斗中击败了意大利的哥特人。

Like, this guy was a total hardass.

就像，这家伙是个十足的硬汉。

And he was this little old man.

而他就是这个小老头。

He was very old, and he was tiny, and he was a eunuch, and the Goths laughed at him, but he had the last laugh, right?

他年纪很大，个子又小，又是个太监，哥特人都嘲笑他，但他笑到了最后，不是吗？

Is there some component to them being eunuchs, so they can’t propagate the bloodline?

难道他们是太监，就不能传承血脉吗？

Yeah.

是的。

2:15:09 They can’t have their own family, so they can’t be, like, looking out for their own offspring.

他们无法拥有自己的家庭，因此他们无法照顾自己的后代。

They’re kind of, um, isolated individuals who depend entirely on your favor.

他们是一种，呃，孤立的个体，完全依赖于你的青睐。

Is it known whether the castration is almost always by force?

是否知道阉割几乎总是通过武力进行？

There are eunuchs in society generally.

社会上普遍存在太监。

2:15:26 They’re often bishops.

他们通常是主教。

They’re appointed Patriarch of Constantinople sometimes.

他们有时被任命为君士坦丁堡牧首。

They’re- …

他们是——……

they’re in all kinds of positions.

他们处于各种职位。

Many of them are children who are enslaved and castrated against their will.

他们中的许多人是违背自己意愿被奴役和阉割的儿童。

Sometimes, however, they are castrated very much according to the will of their families.

然而，有时他们会根据家人的意愿被阉割。

In some parts of, like in Caucasia, there were some regions that were famous for producing eunuchs, also in, in Persia and so forth.

在一些地方，比如高加索，有一些地区以出产太监而闻名，还有波斯等等。

But also, we are pretty sure that this happened within the empire, because there were some families that, like, really wanted to place a eunuch at the court.

而且，我们非常确定这发生在帝国内部，因为有些家族确实希望在宫廷中安置一名太监。

So from Paphlagonia, there were a number of…

所以从帕夫拉戈尼亚，有很多……

This is in northern Asia Minor.

这是在小亚细亚北部。

And so they would…

所以他们会……

It was almost like a family strategy.

这几乎就像一个家庭策略。

I mean, it’s fascinating.

我的意思是，这很有趣。

2:16:15 It’s fascinating that they had so much representation in the inner circles— …

令人着迷的是，他们在核心圈子中拥有如此多的代表权——……

of the emperor, and therefore had real influence.

皇帝的权力，因此具有真正的影响力。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

2:16:28 But this was the case always, even in Rome, like in the Julio-Claudians under- …

但情况总是如此，即使在罗马，就像在朱利奥-克劳迪安统治下……

you know, the first Caesars.

你知道，第一个凯撒。

There are all these powerful eunuchs, and the senatorial class always hates them.

都有这些有权有势的太监，元老阶级总是对他们恨之入骨。

I mean, it’s just the same dynamic.

我的意思是，这只是同样的动态。

One of the interesting things you’ve said as an aside in one of the many podcasts that I listened with you is you said that there were no isolated people, you know, people that are disconnected- …

在我和你一起听的众多播客之一中，你说过的有趣的事情之一是，你说没有孤立的人，你知道，没有联系的人......

2:16:42 from the empire maybe who, for example, don’t know about the taxes or just don’t feel integrated into the system.

例如，来自帝国的人可能不了解税收，或者只是觉得自己没有融入这个体系。

I mean, that’s really interesting to me, that there’s so much connectivity, there’s so much cohesion- …

我的意思是，这对我来说真的很有趣，有如此多的联系，有如此多的凝聚力——……

as an entire peoples.

作为一个全体人民。

These people do not exist, these isolated peasants.

这些人并不存在，这些孤立的农民。

2:17:12 This is a myth that I, one day I’m gonna write a chapter about this because it’s this idea that you occasionally encounter, well, actually quite often in the scholarship, that there are these sort of rural communities out there somewhere that don’t know what’s going on in Constantinople.

这是一个神话，有一天我会写一章关于这个的内容，因为你偶尔会遇到这样的想法，嗯，实际上在学术界经常遇到，即在某个地方存在着这样的农村社区，他们不知道君士坦丁堡正在发生什么。

They might not know, even know who the emperor is.

他们可能不知道，甚至不知道皇帝是谁。

They’re cut off.

他们被切断了。

Maybe a tax official will show up every once in a while, maybe not, and they just live their lives on their own, unaffected by the, say, state, because the medieval state, we suspect, is, you know, always powerless and can’t, you know, affect people’s lives.

也许税务官员会偶尔出现，也许不会，他们只是过着自己的生活，不受国家的影响，我们怀疑，因为中世纪的国家，你知道，总是无能为力，不能影响人们的生活。

There’s no proof for these communities at all.

这些社区根本没有任何证据。

2:17:57 At most, you might try to find some, like, actual hermits, like, actual Christian ascetic hermits who try to go out and find this situation, and sometimes they’re described in the text as, like, oh, so-and-so went so far out into the mountains that, like, not even the tax census people showed up there, which, which tells you how they think about what it means to be isolated, right?

最多，你可能会尝试找到一些，比如，真正的隐士，比如，真正的基督教禁欲隐士，他们试图出去寻找这种情况，有时他们在文本中被描述为，比如，哦，某某深入山中，甚至连税收普查的人都没有出现在那里，这告诉你他们如何看待孤立意味着什么，对吗？

So this is not a…

所以这不是一个……

This is a state in which every arable piece of land has been censused for centuries.

在这个州，每一块耕地都经过了几个世纪的人口普查。

It’s not like you can hide a village, right?

你不可能隐藏一个村庄吧？

And the taxation process is not like, what, they visit once a year, give us some coin, and we’ll leave.

税收过程并不像他们每年来一次，给我们一些硬币，然后我们就离开。

It’s actually more like three times a year.

实际上更像是一年三次。

2:18:41 And the taxes are not just coin and maybe a payment in kind or something, but it’s, it’s a whole bunch of things like services and recruits and all…

税收不仅仅是硬币，也许是实物支付或其他什么，但它是一大堆东西，比如服务和新兵等等……

You’re right.

你是对的。

And once you start adding all of these things up, it creates a very dense institutional matrix in which all communities are enmeshed.

一旦你开始将所有这些东西加起来，它就会创建一个非常密集的制度矩阵，所有社区都融入其中。

2:19:02 They can’t get out of it.

他们无法摆脱它。

Also, they, they have a church, don’t they?

还有,他们,他们有一个教堂,不是吗?

And if they have a church, they have the calendar.

如果他们有教堂，他们就有日历。

And of course they have the calendar because…

当然，他们有日历，因为……

So, like, how do they organize time and space and boundaries and all of these things?

那么，他们如何组织时间、空间、界限以及所有这些东西？

No, this is all state institut- How do they pay for anything?

不，这都是州立机构——他们如何支付费用？

They have coins.

他们有硬币。

Coins are everywhere.

硬币无处不在。

So I think that these institutions structured the way that everyone, even in village communities, even in the most isolated ones, supposedly, how they thought about things like time and space and value and relations and power and kinship and so forth.

因此，我认为这些机构构建了每个人的方式，即使是在乡村社区，甚至在最孤立的社区中，据说他们如何思考时间、空间、价值、关系、权力和亲属关系等问题。

So what you’re saying is taxation is the thing that brings the empire together.

所以你说的是税收是让帝国团结在一起的东西。

It is, principally, yes.

基本上是的。

I mean, it’s- …

我的意思是，这是——……

2:19:46 it’s true, right?

这是真的，对吧？

This is, like, this is how you know.

这就是，这就是你所知道的。

Yeah.

是的。

2:19:50 But on top of that is layered things like the economy, coins, right?

但最重要的是经济、货币等分层的东西，对吗？

But also there’s the church.

但还有教堂。

Yeah, and the church is important, just like you said.

是的，就像你说的，教堂很重要。

2:19:56 And there’s churches throughout the empire.

整个帝国都有教堂。

Yes, and they have sermons, and they pray for the emperor after this service.

是的，他们有布道，他们在仪式结束后为皇帝祈祷。

2:20:01 No, there are no isolated communities.

不，不存在孤立的社区。

So one of the things I briefly mentioned just would be nice to elaborate on is this term of monarchic republic.

因此，我简要提到的一件事很值得详细说明，那就是君主制共和国这个术语。

2:20:09 So we’ve been throwing around words like kingdom and republic and empire and monarchy.

所以我们一直在使用“王国”、“共和国”、“帝国”和“君主制”等词语。

So what is the actual…

那么实际情况是怎样的……

What’s a good applicable term to what this thing is- …

什么是一个很好的适用术语来描述这个东西是什么——……

the East Roman Empire?

东罗马帝国？

That’s an excellent question, and I’m glad you flagged that because we call it conventionally Byzantine Empire, and it’s neither of those things really.

这是一个很好的问题，我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为我们传统上称其为拜占庭帝国，但实际上这两者都不是。

2:20:35 We talked about Byzantine.

我们谈论了拜占庭。

Now, empire’s a bit of a problem because first of all there’s no term in Greek, in the Greek that they use at this period, that corresponds to our notion of empire.

现在，帝国有点问题，因为首先，在希腊语中，在他们这个时期使用的希腊语中，没有一个术语与我们的帝国概念相对应。

It’s not part of the official terms.

这不是官方条款的一部分。

It’s not even…

这甚至不是……

They didn’t even have a term for it.

他们甚至没有一个术语来形容它。

You could have…

你可以有……

There’s some terms that might mean something like state, arche maybe or kratos.

有些术语可能意味着诸如状态、arche 或 kratos 之类的意思。

But for the most part, it’s either basileia, which we might translate as monarchy, or politeia, which is polity.

但在大多数情况下，它要么是 basileia，我们可以将其翻译为君主制，要么是politeia，即政体。

And politeia in Greek, polity, is a Greek translation of Latin res publica.

希腊语中的politeia，即政体，是拉丁语res publica 的希腊语翻译。

2:21:24 Res publica doesn’t mean republic the way we mean it for the Romans, like a non-monarchical regime, right?

Res publica 并不意味着我们对罗马人来说的共和国，就像非君主政体，对吗？

That’s how we mean, like, the American Republic or, you know.

这就是我们所说的美利坚合众国，或者你知道的。

That’s a usage that came in later, like during the Enlightenment.

这是后来出现的用法，比如启蒙运动时期。

In Latin, a res publica is the common affairs, the common interest of a people who are constituted as a political community, regardless of the type of regime that they have.

在拉丁语中，res publica 是共同事务，是构成政治共同体的人民的共同利益，无论他们拥有何种政体。

Like even Cicero could imagine the Roman res publica governed by a king or by a senate or by a democracy.

就像西塞罗可以想象的那样，罗马的公共机构由国王、元老院或民主国家统治。

And they continue to use that term.

他们继续使用这个词。

We don’t use it according to Roman norms.

我们不按照罗马规范使用它。

We use it according to modern norms, the term republic.

我们根据现代规范使用它，即共和国一词。

So they continue to call it a res publica or a polity under the emperors as well, right?

所以他们继续称其为“res publica”或“皇帝统治下的政体”，对吗？

2:22:09 And it was understood that the role of the emperor, whether he’s Caesar or basileus or whatever, whatever language, was to serve the polity.

人们都知道，皇帝的角色，无论他是凯撒还是巴西勒斯，无论是什么语言，都是为政体服务。

They keep saying this.

他们一直这么说。

So the terms that occur in the sources most commonly are basileia of the Romans, polity of the Romans, or Romania, which is the proper name of this state.

因此，最常出现在资料来源中的术语是“罗马人的巴西利亚”、“罗马人的政体”或“罗马尼亚”，这是这个国家的专有名称。

Not empire.

不是帝国。

2:22:33 Now, empire.

现在，帝国。

Empire in modern English commonly, an empire is a state that’s created when one group conquers a bunch of others and rules them.

在现代英语中，帝国通常是指一个群体征服并统治其他群体时建立的国家。

It could be an ethnic group.

它可能是一个种族群体。

It could be an ethnoreligious group.

它可能是一个民族宗教团体。

It could be a political group, whatever.

不管怎样，它可能是一个政治团体。

But there’s an act of conquest, and results in a state where one group is ruling over others.

但这是一种征服行为，并导致一个群体统治其他群体的状态。

That’s not how Romania is actually constituted.

罗马尼亚实际上并不是这样构成的。

We’ve talked about this.

我们已经讨论过这个了。

It’s, for the most part, all Roman citizens ruling themselves—like Roman subjects ruling themselves through their own government.

在很大程度上，所有罗马公民都在自我统治——就像罗马臣民通过自己的政府来统治自己一样。

So it’s not an empire strictly speaking.

所以严格来说它并不是一个帝国。

Now, occasionally, they will conquer other people, right?

现在，偶尔他们也会征服别人吧？

We talked about the warfare.

我们谈论了战争。

Sometimes it’s not just defensive.

有时，这不仅仅是防御性的。

Sometimes it’s offensive, right?

有时这很令人反感，对吗？

2:23:17 In that case, you do establish an imperial relationship.

在这种情况下，你们确实建立了帝国关系。

Like we, the Romans, are ruling over this other group.

就像我们罗马人统治着另一个群体一样。

Could be Slavs, it could be Bulgarians for a while, it could be whatever.

可能是斯拉夫人，也可能是保加利亚人，也可能是其他任何人。

Or even some Muslims in northern Syria for a while in the 11th century who—and you are not Romans.

或者甚至是 11 世纪叙利亚北部一段时间内的一些穆斯林——而你们也不是罗马人。

And that’s an imperial relationship.

这就是帝国关系。

The question is, how many of these imperial relationships do you need to decide that, well, we’ve reached a tipping point, and now we’re just gonna call the whole thing an empire?

问题是，你需要多少这样的帝国关系才能决定，好吧，我们已经达到了一个临界点，现在我们只是将整个事情称为帝国？

Personally, I don’t think we ever reach that point.

就我个人而言，我认为我们永远不会达到这一点。

I mean, all states, even today, have like minorities.

我的意思是，即使在今天，所有州都有类似的少数族裔。

Some of them are part of that state because they were conquered once upon a time.

他们中的一些人是该州的一部分，因为他们曾经被征服过。

But we don’t call those states empires necessarily.

但我们不一定称这些国家为帝国。

Even though…

尽管……

2:24:05 Like, look at the United Kingdom.

比如，看看英国。

Well, Wales was conquered.

好吧，威尔士被征服了。

And, you know, the Welsh have their own identity, their own language.

而且，你知道，威尔士人有自己的身份、自己的语言。

I don’t know that you would call that now an imperial relationship.

我不知道你现在会称其为帝国关系。

Maybe.

或许。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

I think there’s also a synonymous use of the word empire that refers to the power that the state has- …

我认为帝国这个词还有一个同义用法，指的是国家拥有的权力——……

2:24:22 in the global context geopolitically.

在全球地缘政治背景下。

So sometimes empire is used synonymously with superpower, meaning it’s one of the primary- …

因此，有时帝国被用作超级大国的同义词，这意味着它是主要的国家之一……

nations in the world, and it doesn’t necessarily have to do with the imperial nature of its history.

世界上的国家，这并不一定与其历史的帝国性质有关。

That’s true.

这是真的。

Hence the sort of American empire, US empire.

因此，美利坚帝国，美帝国。

Yes.

是的。

2:24:50 Though you would never characterize the American political regime as an imperial one insofar as it does not have an emperor, for example.

例如，尽管你永远不会将美国政体描述为帝国政体，因为它没有皇帝。

But anyway, yes.

但无论如何，是的。

The problem is that in my field, we use the term empire conventionally, even when what you just described is clearly not happening, like even toward the end.

问题是，在我的领域，我们通常使用“帝国”这个词，即使你刚才描述的情况显然没有发生，甚至到了最后。

It’s not a major world power.

它不是世界主要强国。

It, like, has a few islands in the Peloponnese, but we call it empire and the emperor, and it’s like, it’s completely ridiculous.

它在伯罗奔尼撒半岛有几个岛屿，但我们称其为帝国和皇帝，这完全是荒谬的。

There’s not even a term in their language for that sort of thing.

他们的语言中甚至没有一个术语来形容这类事情。

Anyway, we can call things whatever we want, just so we understand what the reality is- …

不管怎样，我们可以随心所欲地称呼事物，这样我们就可以了解现实是什么——……

and what we are using those terms to mean.

以及我们使用这些术语的含义。

I think that’s the important thing.

我认为这是最重要的。

Yeah.

是的。

So then let’s look at words which are both fascinating, monarchic republic.

那么让我们来看看两个令人着迷的词：君主制共和国。

Right.

正确的。

Why is that a good term for the East Roman Empire?

为什么这个词对于东罗马帝国来说是一个好词呢？

Because they understood it very much to be a polity in the Roman sense of a res publica that was governed by a regime that was monarchical.

因为他们非常理解这是罗马意义上的公共政体，由君主政体统治。

So those two elements, there’s an emperor dude at the top, and it functioned politically like a republic.

所以这两个元素，顶部有一个皇帝，它在政治上像共和国一样运作。

Also, the emperor was expected to be working for the republic.

此外，皇帝还应该为共和国工作。

2:26:04 Like, they keep saying this.

就像，他们一直这么说。

So, like, this was their conception.

所以，这就是他们的构想。

You don’t find it, for example, in other kinds of dynastic empires, the ones that don’t emerge from within the context of an ancient republic.

例如，你在其他类型的王朝帝国中找不到它，这些帝国不是在古代共和国的背景下出现的。

So this is another reason why I find this civilization so fascinating, right?

这就是我觉得这个文明如此迷人的另一个原因，对吧？

I mean, we mentioned the Greek and the Roman and the Christian elements that are kind of jostling together.

我的意思是，我们提到了希腊、罗马和基督教元素，这些元素是相互碰撞的。

This is fascinating to me in part because it’s this weird combination of monarchical power, like in terms of executive institutions- …

这对我来说很有趣，部分原因是这是君主权力的奇怪组合，就像行政机构一样——……

and a republican kind of baseline ideology on which it operates.

以及其赖以运作的共和主义基线意识形态。

Yeah, and they, they sometimes come to a head.

是的，他们有时会达到紧要关头。

Is there at all a degree to which it’s a military dictatorship?

到底有没有达到军事独裁的程度？

2:26:50 Because especially when it’s the general in the emperor’s seat, yes, there’s a republic, yes, there’s political discussion, but the army has a lot of power.

因为尤其是当将军坐在皇帝的位子上时，是的，有共和国，是的，有政治讨论，但军队拥有很大的权力。

So to what degree is it a military dictatorship, as is sometimes talked about when you talk about the Roman Empire?

那么，正如人们在谈论罗马帝国时有时会提到的那样，它在多大程度上是军事独裁呢？

Yeah, so Augustus’ position, for example, and that of his successors is talked about as a military dictatorship.

是的，例如奥古斯都的立场和他的继任者的立场被称为军事独裁。

2:27:12 In other words, when push comes to shove- …

换句话说，当事情到了紧要关头——……

and the basis of political power is the army, then I suppose it’s legitimate for historians to talk about a military dictatorship.

而政治权力的基础是军队，那么我想历史学家谈论军事独裁是合理的。

But here’s why I don’t think the Eastern Roman Empire is a military dictatorship.

但这就是为什么我不认为东罗马帝国是一个军事独裁国家。

Even though, again, the emperors control the armies and the armies themselves will often have a say in who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned.

尽管皇帝控制着军队，而军队本身通常对谁成为皇帝有发言权，就像我们提到的内战一样。

Okay.

好的。

The reason why I don’t think it’s a military dictatorship is because they almost never, very, very, very rarely use the army as an instrument of social control.

我之所以不认为这是军事独裁，是因为他们几乎从不、非常、非常、很少使用军队作为社会控制的工具。

Isn’t that strange to you?

这对你来说不奇怪吗？

2:28:03 Because you see that being done through so much of human history.

因为你在人类历史的大部分时间里都看到了这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

And the fact they don’t resort to that, I mean, they, for 1,000 years, that’s just not a thing.

事实上，我的意思是，他们一千年以来都没有采取这种做法，这根本就不是一件事。

As a way of keeping down the population, you just don’t see it.

作为抑制人口增长的一种方式，你只是看不到而已。

2:28:18 And part of the reason for that is I don’t think the population needs to be kept down.

部分原因是我认为不需要限制人口数量。

Like, this gets back to the consensus that we were talking about.

就像，这又回到了我们正在谈论的共识。

The understanding is that the army is there to protect the Roman people.

人们的理解是，军队的存在是为了保护罗马人民。

And is often recruited among them.

并且经常被招募到其中。

And for most of the period that I study, lives among them.

在我学习的大部分时间里，我都生活在他们中间。

So when the emperors have to call up the army, they’re literally calling up soldiers from local villages.

因此，当皇帝必须征召军队时，他们实际上是从当地村庄征召士兵。

It’s just incredible that this worked.

令人难以置信的是，这竟然有效。

2:28:47 I guess the civil war thing is, as a mechanism, is effective.

我认为内战作为一种机制是有效的。

‘Cause you just, throughout human history, I mean, you look at even recent history, it’s just a very common thing for an authoritarian figure to use the army to suppress people.

因为纵观人类历史，我的意思是，即使看看最近的历史，独裁者利用军队镇压人民也是很常见的事情。

Yeah, but isn’t that dangerous, though?

是的，但这不是很危险吗？

2:29:05 Look at how many modern regimes tried to use their own armies against their people who are in a moment of rising up.

看看有多少现代政权试图使用自己的军队来对抗正处于崛起时刻的人民。

It doesn’t last.

它不会持久。

Well, it’s a risk.

嗯，这是一个风险。

2:29:15 Like the Arab Spring.

就像阿拉伯之春一样。

Especially in Egypt.

尤其是在埃及。

And you could, you could tell for those three weeks that Mubarak was trying to decide whether he could actually count on the army to suppress the protesters or not, because you never know what they’re going to do if you ask them to fire on a civilian population.

你可以，你可以看出，在那三个星期里，穆巴拉克试图决定他是否真的可以指望军队镇压抗议者，因为你永远不知道如果你要求他们向平民开枪，他们会做什么。

It can backfire on you badly.

它可能会给你带来严重的适得其反的后果。

So I think that is a very dangerous force to use, and even in the context of modern regimes, can result in a regime change.

所以我认为这是一种非常危险的力量，即使在现代政权的背景下，也可能导致政权更迭。

Absolutely, and there’s huge wisdom behind that, but, you know, leaders are not always wise, often not wise.

当然，这背后蕴藏着巨大的智慧，但是，你知道，领导者并不总是明智的，而且常常不明智。

2:29:53 And often maybe they start out wise, but power corrupts them over time, and so the fact that this does not happen just over and over and over and over- …

通常，他们一开始可能是明智的，但随着时间的推移，权力会腐蚀他们，所以事实上，这种情况不会一次又一次地发生……

in the East Roman Empire is, is, there’s just signal there that’s fascinating.

在东罗马帝国，那里有一个令人着迷的信号。

And I mean, this goes to the book that you want to be working on— …

我的意思是，这涉及到你想要写的书——……

About why the thing lasts.

关于为什么事情会持续下去。

So…

所以……

There’s one emperor who does do that, and that’s Justinian.

有一位皇帝确实做到了这一点，那就是查士丁尼。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

2:30:22 Yeah, he gets wild.

是的，他变得狂野。

So let’s talk about Justinian.

那么我们来谈谈查士丁尼。

We have to.

我们必须。

We have to talk about Justinian.

我们必须谈谈查士丁尼。

One of the most impactful Roman emperors in history started as a peasant, and rose in power to become emperor.

历史上最有影响力的罗马皇帝之一从农民起家，后来掌权成为皇帝。

He fought wars of conquest and was very consequential and impactful.

他进行了征服战争，影响深远。

So who was he?

那么他是谁？

All right.

好的。

2:30:44 So Justinian was the emperor from 527 to 565, so quite a long reign.

查士丁尼在位时间是527年到565年，在位时间相当长。

He was the nephew of the previous emperor, Justin I, who was an older man, ruled for just under a decade before Justinian.

他是前任皇帝查士丁一世的侄子，查士丁一世年纪较大，在查士丁尼之前统治了不到十年。

And both of them came from small, poor agricultural communities in the western Balkans.

他们都来自巴尔干西部的小型贫困农业社区。

We should say that Justin I ended up in your worst 10 emperors list.

我们应该说，贾斯汀一世最终进入了你最差的十位皇帝名单。

Yeah, for one decision.

是的，为了一个决定。

2:31:11 He’s not the worst of the worst, but he made a very, very bad call when it came to church policy, tore the church apart.

他不是最坏的人中的最坏的人，但他在教会政策方面做出了非常非常糟糕的决定，导致教会分裂。

He shouldn’t have done that, in my view.

在我看来，他不应该这样做。

But by the way, Justinian’s an immensely complicated figure.

但顺便说一句，查士丁尼是一个极其复杂的人物。

I found it impossible to decide, first of all, whether to put him on the best emperors or the worst emperors.

首先，我发现无法决定把他放在最好的皇帝还是最差的皇帝身上。

Yeah, you—I mean, you’re being spicy, yeah.

是的，你——我的意思是，你很辣，是的。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

2:31:31 You have to be provocative about these things.

你必须对这些事情具有挑衅性。

And I thought omitting those two would be that, and it was.

我认为省略这两个就是这样，而且确实如此。

So, and here we are talking about it.

所以，我们在这里讨论它。

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

是的，是的，完全正确。

2:31:39 The controversy.

争议。

And through all the systems of social mobility that we’ve been talking about, Justin ended up emperor.

通过我们一直在谈论的所有社会流动体系，贾斯汀最终成为了皇帝。

2:31:42 Because of his military background, he just rose through the ranks.

由于他的军事背景，他只是晋升。

He was in the right place at the right time, became emperor, and then he gradually positioned his nephew, Justinian, whose background we do not know.

他在正确的时间出现在正确的地点，成为了皇帝，然后他逐渐定位了他的侄子查士丁尼，他的背景我们不知道。

Literally, we do not know anything that Justinian did before the age of something like 38 when he appears on the historical record.

从字面上看，查士丁尼在 38 岁出现在历史记录中之前做过什么，我们一无所知。

Same background.

相同的背景。

We know where he came from, but we don’t know what he was doing, although, like, was he an active soldier for decades?

我们知道他来自哪里，但我们不知道他在做什么，尽管他是几十年来的现役军人吗？

We don’t know.

我们不知道。

Probably not.

可能不会。

He comes equipped with, like, a knowledge of something like Roman law and some Christian theology.

他具备罗马法和一些基督教神学等知识。

That seems to be, like, what he knew.

这似乎就是他所知道的。

2:32:26 And then Justin positions him to become his successor eventually, kind of reluctantly, but he does.

然后贾斯汀最终将他定位为他的继任者，有点不情愿，但他做到了。

Justinian also marries Theodora, who’s a woman who’s a former sex worker, which is a controversial choice.

查士丁尼还娶了西奥多拉，她是一名前性工作者，这是一个有争议的选择。

By this point, he’s a senator and is holding all of these top generalships, and then he becomes emperor.

至此，他已经成为参议员并拥有所有这些高级将领，然后他成为皇帝。

She was also very influential, yes?

她也很有影响力，是吗？

Very powerful, yes.

非常强大，是的。

Very powerful.

非常强大。

Under his, yeah, during his reign.

在他的统治下，是的，在他的统治期间。

2:32:51 So the interesting thing about Justinian’s choice of, let’s say, associates, and that includes his wife, is that he seems to have just gone for people he thought were talented- …

因此，查士丁尼选择的伙伴（包括他的妻子）的有趣之处在于，他似乎只是选择了他认为有才华的人——……

or that would be good for him as a ruler, rather than their social class or prestige.

或者这对他作为统治者有利，而不是对他们的社会阶层或声望有利。

And so he accumulates around him quite a motley group of odd, sometimes like these kinds of disreputable people.

所以他的周围聚集了一群形形色色的奇怪的人，有时甚至是这类声名狼藉的人。

But they did what he wanted them to, and they were—they—with lasting consequences for world history.

但他们做了他希望他们做的事，而且他们——他们——对世界历史产生了持久的影响。

So he has an eye for talent, and he doesn’t hesitate to pick people that others might look down on if he thought they could get the job done.

所以他对人才有慧眼，如果他认为其他人可能会看不起的人能完成工作，他会毫不犹豫地挑选他们。

2:33:39 And these are some of the attributes that enable him to be as successful as he was.

这些是使他能够取得如此成功的一些特质。

So that’s his background.

这就是他的背景。

He’s a Latin speaker primarily, but he knows Greek, too.

他主要讲拉丁语，但他也懂希腊语。

So here he is, and he, but he had, so like I mentioned, the wars of conquests.

所以他在这里，他，但正如我提到的，他经历了征服战争。

2:33:51 He also overhauled the Roman law.

他还彻底修改了罗马法。

He appoints a committee- …

他任命了一个委员会——……

2:33:58 as one does— …

就像一个人所做的那样——……

to just take the whole of Roman law and condense it into what today we call the Corpus Juris Civilis, which is the body of Roman civil law.

将整个罗马法浓缩成我们今天所说的《民法大全》，即罗马民法的主体。

And this was a massive work of codification, and it is our main source for Roman law.

这是一项庞大的法典编纂工作，也是我们罗马法的主要来源。

Like overwhelmingly, what we call Roman law is what Justinian’s committee, and specifically this character called Tribonian, who was a very accomplished jurist, said it was.

绝大多数情况下，我们所说的罗马法就是查士丁尼委员会，特别是特里波尼安这个非常有成就的法学家所说的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

2:34:31 And that, did that persist through time?

那，这种情况持续了吗？

Did that last?

那最后了吗？

Yes, still to this day.

是的，直到今天仍然如此。

2:34:34 When you study Roman law, you’re studying Tribonian’s committee.

当你研究罗马法时，你正在研究特里波尼安委员会。

And so in terms of our modern society, how much of impact did that have, this codification, this stable law that ran the East Roman Empire?

那么，就我们的现代社会而言，这种编纂、管理东罗马帝国的稳定法律有多大影响？

Well, I mean, Roman legal concepts pervade everything from philosophy to political thought to actual Roman legal practice.

嗯，我的意思是，罗马法律概念遍及从哲学到政治思想再到实际罗马法律实践的一切。

2:34:51 I mean, depends on what country you’re in.

我的意思是，取决于你在哪个国家。

So in many of the countries of Europe, it is the, you know, current law.

因此，在许多欧洲国家，这是现行法律。

And it is to some degree.

从某种程度上来说确实如此。

I mean, I’m exaggerating.

我的意思是，我有点夸张了。

But legal scholars have to study Roman law.

但法律学者必须研究罗马法。

Even law students have to do that.

即使是法学院的学生也必须这样做。

Not so much in countries like the United States or Britain, which have the so-called common law system.

在美国或英国等拥有所谓普通法体系的国家，情况就不那么严重了。

But ideas in Roman law about, for example, property, right, ownership, things like this, these were hugely important in formulating ideas, for example, about sovereignty in political thought.

但是罗马法中关于财产、权利、所有权等的观念对于形成诸如政治思想中的主权等观念非常重要。

Yeah, it’s one of the most important and influential acts of committee work ever done in Constantinople.

是的，这是君士坦丁堡有史以来最重要、最有影响力的委员会工作行为之一。

So going to Perplexity here and looking at some aspects of the Justinian’s laws, they include a systematic structure of private law, persons, things, actions, strong protection of property and contracts, detailed family and inheritance rules, and a hierarchical status-based view of persons.

因此，回到这里的困惑，看看查士丁尼法律的某些方面，它们包括私法、人、物、行为的系统结构，对财产和合同的强有力的保护，详细的家庭和继承规则，以及基于等级地位的人观。

2:35:41 These elements became the template for later civil law systems.

这些要素成为后来民法体系的模板。

And some overall structures, tripartite schema, law organized around personae, legal subjects, things, and procedural actions.

还有一些总体结构、三方模式、围绕人物、法律主体、事物和程序行为组织的法律。

Essentially who, what, and how of- …

本质上是谁、什么以及如何——……

private law.

私法。

And it goes on.

它还在继续。

I mean, a lot of the things I’m reading here really sounds like what we think of as law.

我的意思是，我在这里读到的很多东西听起来确实像我们所认为的法律。

Marriage.

婚姻。

Look, most of it’s about property.

听着，大部分都是关于财产的。

Marriage is a legal status.

婚姻是一种法律地位。

2:36:35 Lawful matrimony required conformity to rules about age, citizenship, and cognatum or prohibited degrees, incest rules, adoption relations, et cetera.