戴夫·霍恩：霸王龙、恐龙、灭绝、演化与《侏罗纪公园》
Dave Hone: T-Rex, Dinosaurs, Extinction, Evolution, and Jurassic Park
古生物学家戴夫·霍恩讲霸王龙的捕食与生长、恐龙灭绝与鸟类演化，并点评《侏罗纪公园》。
霸王龙的头骨究竟有多大，问一百个人可能得到一百个模糊的回答。古生物学家戴夫·霍恩（Dave Hone）的答法很具体：他办公室楼下摆着一具等比例头骨翻模，来自史密森尼博物馆那具标本，他自己个子不算小，整个人可以从那张嘴里穿过去。而且那还不是最大的霸王龙。
他在访谈里一直用手边的化石模型当道具，牙齿、手臂、脚骨、头骨，一件一件摆出来，把这种动物从头到脚拆给你看。拆完之后你会发现，我们对它的印象，错的比对的多。
先把尺寸说清楚：一头长在陆地上的虎鲸
霸王龙体长约十二米，髋部到地面四五米，体重七吨上下。霍恩的同事汤姆·霍尔茨（Tom Holtz）给过一个说法：它是一头长在陆地上的虎鲸。一头大型非洲象五到六吨，霸王龙还要更重，而且是两条腿站着、专吃肉的。它的犬齿状巨牙，一颗的长度抵得上人整根手指。
他提到自己早年在伦敦动物园打工的经历。犀牛从墙上的缺口探出头来，那颗头比他以为的大了一倍；他一度站得比采访时的距离还近地挨着一头大象，感觉是“它们比我想的大太多了”。博物馆里看骨架也是同样的道理，玻璃、栏杆、底座、几米距离，把尺寸感全吃掉了。真站到霸王龙的脚边，你会发现它的脚背才到人的膝盖。
还有一处比例悬殊到荒诞。霍恩拿起一枚伶盗龙（Velociraptor）头骨，说在他生活的那个生态系统里，除了霸王龙自己，最大的食肉动物也就这个级别。这相当于去非洲看狮子，然后问“第二大的掠食者是什么”，答案是“一只黄鼠狼那么大”。现生生态系统里，你找不到这种断层。
那双没用的手，和一副过厚的头骨
前臂短到什么程度？霍恩说，那截骨头跟他的胳膊差不太多，而他不用扛七吨的体重。手指只有两根，第三个常被误传的“指头”其实是一块多出来的掌骨，撑不起一个独立的手指。更硬的证据藏在骨头上：手指关节处有一个韧带凹坑，坑越深，说明韧带越粗、抓握时抗扭能力越强。而这个凹坑在霸王龙身上，是所有暴龙科里最小的。它的手不仅短，在结构上就没打算干活。
头骨正好相反。他把霸王龙和南美的南方巨兽龙（Giganotosaurus）两张头骨图并排放在一起，长度差不多，骨量却完全不在一个量级。霸王龙的吻端是实心的，眼眶前的大开孔只占很小一块；南方巨兽龙那个开孔几乎占了半个头骨，下颌的开孔更大，左右方向的骨壁更薄。同样大的头，一个塞满了骨头，一个留了一堆空洞。
牙也一样。他拿起一颗南方巨兽龙的牙，从侧面看，形状和霸王龙的牙很接近，尺寸也差不多；转九十度看，厚度只有霸王龙的三分之一。牙厚能扛住折断，配合巨量咬合肌和厚实的头骨，凑成一套专门用来压碎骨头的装置。
它咬得动任何东西，日常却只咬小东西
那么它吃谁？答案跟大多数人的想象有差距。霍恩统计过现生食肉动物的捕食记录：多数情况下，猎物只有捕食者体重的百分之五到二十。他研究小盗龙（Microraptor）的胃内容物时算过类似的账，结果和现代食肉动物也吻合。放到七吨的霸王龙身上，百分之五就是三百五十公斤。
三角龙、埃德蒙顿龙、副栉龙这些同时代的巨植食者当然在菜单上，成年个体也在。可一头成年三角龙体重和它相当，头上顶着一米到一米五的角，脾气还不一定好。就算打得赢，一场搏斗下来踩断一根脚骨、划伤一只眼睛，捕不了猎，等于判了死刑。而且五吨的猎物它根本吃不完，剩下的在腐烂之前解决不掉，投入产出比很低。
所以主力目标其实是幼体和亚成体。一头年轻三角龙可能还有一吨重，仍有犀牛那么大，但角没长全、甲没长硬、经验也没有。霍恩说这算不上残酷的发现，它就是所有生态系统通用的规律：幼体体型小、防御弱、觅食效率低、容易被成年个体从好地方赶走、需要更多食物，还常常不知道什么东西会吃自己。从鱼到海星到螳螂到大猫，这条规律一路通用。
一根被啃过的上臂骨，能还原一整顿饭
霍恩花了大量时间研究咬痕。有一具蒙古出土的鸭嘴龙标本，保存状态极佳，堪称蒙古出土最好的一件，整具骨架完整无缺，但只有一根骨头被啃过：肱骨，也就是上臂骨。
那根骨头上留下了两种截然不同的痕迹。一类是深而圆的戳孔，对应巨牙垂直咬合留下的洞。另一类是一排排细密平行的刮痕，全部集中在三角肌胸肌嵴附近，那是肌肉附着最厚的位置。换句话说，它先用大牙把骨头顶端的肌肉咬断、撕开，再用嘴前部那排小牙把附着的肉一点点刮下来。霸王龙嘴的前端有一排极小的门齿状牙齿，尺寸只有侧牙的几分之一，背面还是平的，那排牙专门用来刮。
霍恩把这个过程比作吃夹心饼干：先把上面那片揭掉，再用牙把中间的夹心刮干净。他补充说，大牙负责杀戮和肢解，小牙负责进食，同一张嘴，两套工具，分工清楚。
更细的一层信息藏在咬痕的层序里。这具标本的风化侵蚀痕迹压在咬痕之下，也就是说，这头鸭嘴龙先死了，尸体在河道沙洲上被风沙打磨了几天甚至几周，之后才有动物过来啃。这只能是食腐。反过来，如果骨头上有愈合的骨痂，或者一颗断牙被新生骨质层层包住，那就是活体攻击、猎物逃脱的铁证。同样是咬痕，一个说明这动物活着时挨过咬，一个说明它死透之后才被啃，区别就在骨头有没有长出新的来。
“看不见静止物体”这条设定，是编出来的
《侏罗纪公园》流传最广的一条“科学设定”，是霸王龙看不见不动的东西。霍恩说这条纯属虚构。克莱顿（Michael Crichton）在续作《失落的世界》里安排了一个古生物学家角色，说这个结论出自某篇论文。霍恩专门去查过，找了很久，也问过同行，谁也找不到那篇文章。
真实的霸王龙视力好得离谱。它的眼球有网球那么大。决定视觉敏锐度的是眼球的绝对尺寸，跟它占身体的比例没什么关系。鹰的眼球只比人大一点，视力已经强到那个程度；霸王龙那双眼睛，配合它巨大的嗅球，指向的其实是另一种生活方式。
霍恩的推测是夜行。理由很朴素：一头四米高的动物，在开阔平原上根本藏不住。狮子和老虎躲在长草里都费劲，何况是这个尺寸。而它生活的环境，从地质记录看大多是相对开阔的地带，树丛零星分布，构不成森林。白天它一动，方圆几公里全知道；夜里它可以用嗅觉和夜视慢慢接近，把距离压缩到一次冲刺够得着的范围，然后用耐力把猎物拖垮。
这套打法不像猎豹，更像狼或者鬣狗。它的速度上限大约是每小时四十公里，但那属于快速行走，无法算奔跑，因为双脚同时离地的瞬间在力学上很难成立。可它步幅有四到五米，一迈步就跨出去很远，跟一吨重的年轻三角龙比，节奏上完全不吃亏。霍恩提到一件旧事：电影史上的起源，本来就是一场关于奔马的赌局。有人打赌马在奔跑时四脚会全部离地，埃德沃德·迈布里奇（Eadweard Muybridge）沿跑道摆了一排相机，用绊线触发快门，结果拍到了，赌局赢了，顺带发明了电影。大型动物运动的力学问题，一直是个能让人押注的问题。
它自己吃自己，原因和捕食无关
同类相食这件事，化石证据说至少发生过。有一具暴龙科的颌骨上嵌着一颗霸王龙的牙，断牙留在骨内，周围有新生骨质包裹，说明受伤的个体活了下来。另有一根霸王龙的足骨，上面带着暴龙科典型的取食刮痕，没有愈合迹象。霍恩说，这两件事之所以能确凿地归到霸王龙头上，恰恰因为它是那个生态系统里唯一的大型食肉动物。任何大型食肉痕迹，嫌疑人只有一个。
但同类相食在自然界并不常见，原因和战斗力无关。大型食肉动物体内寄生虫积累得极多，因为它们一辈子都在吃带寄生虫的东西。而一头同类，吃的东西和你完全一样，身上带的寄生虫也和你完全一样。吃同类，等于把自己那一整套寄生虫再吃回去一遍。除非饿到极限，或者刚打完一场架、腿伤得走不动、眼前正好躺着两吨肉，否则这笔账不划算。
面部伤疤倒是普遍得很。大型食肉恐龙的头骨上，一半甚至三分之二的成年个体带着愈合的伤痕，都是同类之间争地盘、争配偶、争地位留下的。霍恩强调，打架很常见，吃掉对手很罕见，这两件事在化石记录里分得很开。那根被反复啃过的足骨上，咬痕是多次取食留下的刮痕，并非一次搏斗中咬一口就走。搏斗会咬头、咬脖子、咬肋侧，不会有谁在打架时专门咬对方的脚，咬完还回来再咬一遍。
如果非要找一个对手
访谈里有个好玩的假设：让史前某种生物在陆地上跟霸王龙打一场，谁有机会。霍恩的回答是没有。稍微接近一点的是南美的南方巨兽龙和马普龙，长度上可能还长一两米，质量只有霸王龙的三分之二到四分之三。它们的牙是切割型的，边薄、带锯齿，战术上更像狼群或者非洲野犬，靠反复撕咬让猎物失血、力竭。一边是把骨头咬断，一边是把肉割开，谁的容错率高，一目了然。
《侏罗纪公园3》里棘龙（Spinosaurus）打赢霸王龙，在他看来也是假的。棘龙的吻部又长又窄，咬合力天生受限；颈部上下方向很有力，左右扭转却是同类里最弱的，而霸王龙的颈部抗扭能力恰恰是最强的。用最弱的颈部去对抗最强的颈部，用最弱的咬合去对抗最强的咬合，这场架从一开始就没有胜算。
棘龙：一群怪家伙里最极端的那个
霍恩和马克·维顿（Mark Witton）合写了一本书，《棘龙故事：棘龙的生物学与生态学》（Spinosaur Tales: The Biology and Ecology of the Spinosaurus），英国2025年11月上市，北美2026年初。维顿负责全部插图。
他的判断是，棘龙基本是一种在浅水里蹚水抓鱼的巨型涉禽，类比一下就是一头超大型的鹳或者苍鹭。“潜水健将”这类说法证据太弱，他和同事写过一篇长文逐条反驳，几年之后，连原来那篇论文的部分作者也承认不是那么回事。
支持鱼食性的线索很多，而且互相独立。头骨带鳄鱼式的形状，吻端收窄又张开成一个小龛，齿列沿颌骨上下起伏；牙齿接近圆锥形，横截面几乎是圆的，这在所有食肉恐龙里独一无二，只有鳄类、淡水豚和某些吃鱼的鱼才有这种牙；化石产出的层位往往和大量水生动物一起出现，别的食肉恐龙很少出现在那种地方；牙齿的同位素信号更接近鳄鱼、海龟和鱼，跟同时代同地点的陆生恐龙对不上。最直接的一条，英国出土的重爪龙（Baryonyx）胸腔里留着一堆鱼鳞。一条证据可以解释成巧合，五六条方向一致的独立线索凑到一起，那就很难反驳了。
真正古怪的是它和近亲摆在一起的样子。似鳄龙（Suchomimus）在尼日尔，重爪龙在英国，它们有和棘龙相似的头骨、相似的脖子、相似的大前肢和大爪子，可没有背帆，没有桨状尾，腿也不短。棘龙是一群本来就怪的家伙里，被演化推到最极端的那个样本。
体型也是争论点。意大利米兰的一家收藏里有一副尺寸夸张的颌骨，按比例推，那头棘龙可能有十五米长，超过已知任何霸王龙的体长。不过霍恩提醒，长度和质量是两件事，蟒蛇很长，可它远不如狮子老虎重。
“成群捕猎”这件事，证据薄得可怜
霍恩的书和论文，核心问题一直是同一个：从化石里到底能推出多少关于生活的信息。他的态度出奇地保守。
拿“成群捕猎”来说。《侏罗纪公园》给伶盗龙贴上的标签里，成群、协作、高智商、高速奔跑，没有一条站得住。证据主要来自蒙大拿一个著名地点，那里有一具腱龙（Tenontosaurus）的尸体，旁边倒着几只恐爪龙（Deinonychus）的骨架，于是被解读成群起攻之。霍恩反问：那它们为什么都死在那儿？狮子捕杀一头角马，是把猎物吃掉，不会集体阵亡在猎物旁边。如果每次捕杀之后猎食者内部都要血战一场、死掉半个群，这个物种撑不过几年。
更合理的解释之一是捕食者陷阱。洛杉矶的拉布雷亚沥青坑就是现成的例子：一头食草动物陷进沥青里，绝望地叫，食肉动物一只接一只冲上去，然后自己也陷进去。挖出来的比例极其失真，食草动物只有三头猛犸和一只地懒，食肉动物却有上百头恐狼、几十只刃齿虎。一具猎物旁边堆着六具捕食者的骨架，最不该先想到的解释就是它们合作愉快。
足迹的推论同样站不住。有人发现四五个暴龙脚印朝同一方向、尺寸接近，就推断它们在结伴行动。霍恩说，一条动物小径上，前面一头雌兽在发情期走过，后面几只雄兽在几小时、几天内陆续追过去，三组脚印整齐朝向同一方向，但它们彼此不认识。他提到南非国家公园的一位同行说过，巡护员观察到过花豹凑在一起捕猎，而花豹平时几乎算反社会的动物，见面就打架。独居动物留下同步的足迹，这件事本身说明不了结群。
连现生动物都不好判断。纪录片里斑鬣狗七八只围上去撕开角马的场面很常见，可文献里的结论是，斑鬣狗大多数时候单独出击。它们确实过着等级复杂、社交密集的族群生活，生活方式和捕猎方式却完全是两码事。发现一堆同类化石躺在一起，最多能推出它们可能生活在一起，推不出它们一起打猎。
那什么才算证据？霍恩给出一个他自己都觉得可能永远碰不到的黄金标准：同一个地点，有过一头食草动物，还有一群食肉恐龙的脚印。要紧的是层序得交错，A 的脚印压在 B 的脚印之上，紧接着另一个位置上 B 的脚印压在 A 之上。这种交错意味着它们在几分钟、几小时之内都还在场，不可能隔了很久。七八组脚印围着一头猎物汇聚，现场再乱成一团，那才叫铁证。
一具化石讲的故事，可能完全是错的
中国出土的小盗龙（Microraptor）是个好例子。这种乌鸦大小的滑翔恐龙，目前至少有十几具保存不错的标本，其中四具胃里还有东西：一具是鱼，一具是一块哺乳动物的脚，一具是鸟，一具是蜥蜴。
于是有论文的结论是“这是吃鱼的动物”。霍恩说，这话翻译过来等于：那一只，吃过一条鱼；那一只，吃过一只鸟；那一只，吃过一只哺乳动物；那一只，吃过一只蜥蜴。合起来看，最合理的解读是这一类动物食性很杂，我们恰好抓拍到它在不同时间吃了不同的东西。单具标本能提供的只有一条时间切片，凑不成这个物种的全部。
他讲到这里，列克斯忍不住感叹，这完全是福尔摩斯式的推理。这个类比并非随口一说：柯南·道尔在小说里就借用了居维叶（Cuvier）的梗，那位法国解剖学家能从一根碎骨复原整只动物的形态，福尔摩斯则说自己能从最微小的细节还原整串事件。霍恩听完笑了，说这个类比贴切得有点过分。
原角龙为什么值得多挖一百具
他手边那件道具，是原角龙（Protoceratops andrewsi）少年个体的头骨翻模，产自蒙古。他说自己对这物种投入这么多，理由只有一个：原角龙几乎是唯一一种恐龙，我们能真正把它当作一个种群来研究。
数量惊人。超过一百具完整骨架，从胚胎、幼体、亚成体、成年到老年全齐，都来自蒙古同一个地点，时间跨度大约十万年。十万年在演化尺度上窄得可以忽略，等于一个地点、一个时间段、一个完整种群，涵盖从蛋里到老死的全部阶段。
科研价值就在这里。你有一具标本时，能讨论的只有它长什么样、归到哪个类群。你有一百具时，能问的是：性征在什么年龄长出来？雄雌差别有多大？幼体存活率多少？成长曲线是什么形状？这些问题靠新物种回答不了，靠样本量才回答得了。他坦言，这个主张在同行里不受欢迎，新物种上头条、拿经费，多挖一百具同一种恐龙看起来像重复劳动。
怎么分辨一头恐龙的性别，答案是基本分不出来
最可靠的方法是找髓质骨。雌性在产卵季要高速合成蛋壳，需要短时间内调集大量钙，于是会在股骨、肱骨这类大骨的内壁临时长出一层血管密集的骨质，把钙抽调出来送进蛋壳。切片、打磨到近乎透明、放到显微镜下，看到那个纹理，就能确定这是一头正在产卵的雌性。
可这个指标覆盖面太窄。雄性没有，年轻雌性没有，非繁殖季的雌性没有，这一年病得厉害的雌性没有，已经下完蛋的雌性也没有。它只能确认谁正在产卵，无法确认谁不是雌性。
他做过一项恒河鳄（gharial）的研究。这种长吻鳄生活在尼泊尔、印度、巴基斯坦，雄性吻端有个膨大的结构。恒河鳄极度濒危，他和学生向全球博物馆发邮件找标本、做测量，最后凑到一百一十个个体。结论是，除了最极端的大雄性之外，其余几乎无法区分：中等体型的雌性，看起来就像中等偏小的雄性。原因在于鳄鱼和恐龙一样，成年之后有很长一段年龄区间都保持繁殖能力。一头体型较大的雌性，外形上会和一头体型较小的雄性重叠。
这个麻烦叠加到恐龙身上就更严重。原角龙有一百具标本，论文里出现的结论互相打架，有的说雄雌差异微弱，有的说根本没有。真相也可能是差异很强，但没有人先把性别鉴定做出来，于是数据永远是一团混在一起的东西。
出路他也想好了。有些地点是多具原角龙一起死亡形成的，如果那次死亡发生在繁殖季，那么逐根骨头去钻样，可能能找出七八头正在产卵的雌性，剩下的按繁殖季这个前提推定为雄性，性别的分界线就有了。有了分界线，剩下的差异才谈得上分析。
颜值、代价和诚实信号
谈到恐龙身上的角、冠、棱、脊，霍恩喜欢用一个词：社会与性选择（socio-sexual selection）。性炫耀和社会等级这两件事，在化石上几乎分不开，索性打包处理。
雄狮的深色鬃毛是典型案例。母狮觉得深色更好看，其他雄狮也觉得深色更不好惹，一个特征同时承担两套功能。黑天鹅的例子更微妙，翅膀上有一族卷曲的羽毛，雄鸟雌鸟都有，而且两性都偏爱更卷的对方。代价很实在：那是初级飞羽，卷得越厉害越难飞。正因为代价大，这个信号才可信：能长出这么卷的羽毛，还能照常飞行、觅食、逃命，说明身体条件确实过硬。
他推测恐龙头上的那些装饰遵循同一套逻辑。越夸张越显眼，越显眼越容易被猎物提前发现。而这正是信号的价值：顶着这么惹眼的东西，照样能追到你、咬住你、吃掉你，那得多强。反过来，角小、色暗、不起眼的那些，说明它连捕猎都勉强，没有余力长装饰。
食草动物面对的压力完全不同。三角龙生活在几十只一群的集群里，每一头都有十吨重，藏是藏不住的，干脆把信号做到最大，于是有了巨大的头盾和长角。他还提到另一个概念，互相性选择：海鸟、椋鸟、鹦鹉里，雄雌在育雏上的投入相近，两性都长装饰，也互相挑剔。一头恐龙如果雄雌头上都有角，至少暗示它的繁殖模式不是“雄性单方面竞争、雌性独自抚养”。
杀死恐龙的是气候，那颗石头只是扣动了扳机
六千六百万年前，一颗山那么大的天体以十倍音速撞上尤卡坦半岛近海。霍恩说，更倒霉的是撞击点的岩石类型，扬起的巨量尘埃遮天蔽日，等于瞬间进入核冬天。让事情彻底无法收拾的，是气候变化的幅度和速度。
地球史上的五次大灭绝，说到底都是某种形式的气候剧变，火山喷发也好、缺氧也好、冰期也好，真正致命的是变化的速率超过了生物能适应的上限。而气候剧变的杀伤力靠连锁反应放大：一种蛾子灭绝了，它偏偏是某种树的主要传粉者，树结不了果，靠这些果实过冬的松鼠饿死，以松鼠为主要猎物的一种猫科动物跟着完蛋。一件小事能拽倒四五个环节，生态系统的崩溃是把环节一个个扯断。
体型大加上住在陆地，是最糟的组合。大动物要更多食物、更大领地、更低的种群密度、更慢的繁殖速度，基因多样性也更少，任何一环缺失都致命。陆地还意味着逃不掉，遇上沙漠、山脉、大河，动物只能停下。海里的生物可以横向移动，水体升温降温都慢，鲸可以一路游到另一个半球。恐龙两样全占，结局因此不算意外。
他也不相信所有恐龙都在那一天彻底断绝。新西兰、夏威夷、加拉帕戈斯这些孤立地方今天还保存着大量古老物种，白垩纪末期理应也有类似的避难所，让某些种群多活了几十万年甚至几百万年。难处是，找到那些岩层、从里面挖出化石、还能准确测年，概率低到可以忽略。
恐龙如果没走，人类大概不会来
这个问题他答得小心，但倾向明确：哺乳动物被压在恐龙统治下的一亿多年里，体型一直卡在浣熊以下。大型、中型、小型生态位被恐龙占得满满当当。这样一套结构里，很难想象有一支灵长类会被允许长到能生火、能造工具的体型。
“恐龙会不会演化出智慧”这个假设，他提到加拿大古生物学家戴尔·拉塞尔（Dale Russell）做过一个著名的思想实验，以伤齿龙（Troodon）为原型推演一种类人形态的恐龙人，模型还摆在渥太华的加拿大自然博物馆。伤齿龙的脑容量在同类里算大的，脑化指数高，所以总被拎出来当候选。霍恩不太认同这类推演，理由是那些复原图总给恐龙配上人类的脚、人类的站姿、消失的尾巴。凭什么智慧一定要长成人的样子？乌鸦和鹦鹉在很多任务上的表现已经能和猿类掰手腕，它们走的完全是另一条路。
关于大脑，能拿到的材料少得可怜。恐龙和多数爬行动物一样，脑并不填满整个颅腔，脑外面还有脑膜、脂肪、液体。颅腔内部会形成一个内模，也就是脑颅铸型（endocast），能看出嗅球和视叶的相对大小，粗略推出嗅觉和视觉在脑内占多少资源。近些年还能用 CT 扫出内耳结构，推测它对哪些频率敏感，这个信息量有限，技术上却很有意思。
前几年有篇论文提出霸王龙的神经元密度高到接近灵长类，几个月内就被一队古生物学家和神经学家合写的文章驳回去了，神经元数量从三十亿下修到两亿五千万到十七亿之间，跟鳄类更接近。那种高密度的算法依赖鸟类特有的神经折叠方式，骨架化石承受不起这种外推的负担。加上体重估计和脑容量估计各自都可能差百分之二三十，两个误差叠起来，就能把一个笨动物算成天才，也能把天才算成笨动物。
羽毛出现得比鸟早一亿年
暴龙类在侏罗纪中期就已经有羽毛了，距今大约一亿六千五百万年，比白垩纪末灭绝事件早了一亿年。那个阶段的羽毛结构简单，像雏鸟身上的绒羽，还没有今天那种中央羽轴加对称羽片的形态。目前能确认全身覆羽的类群有八九个，暴龙科、驰龙科、伤齿龙科、似鸟龙类都在其中。
鸟类并不是恐龙灭绝之后的产物。它们和恐龙共存了上亿年，白垩纪末那场灾难里也死了大批鸟类的谱系，只有少数几支跨过了那条线。“恐龙灭绝，鸟类从灰烬中升起”这个叙事，从头到尾都不成立。
羽毛为什么会出现？两个功能都很硬。一个是保温，多数恐龙是内温动物，靠代谢维持高体温，羽毛能留住热量。另一个是展示。羽毛可以做鳞片做不了的事：换色、立起来、展开、每年脱落重长、幼体和成体长得完全不一样。这种可塑性，是骨板和鳞片永远达不到的。
他说了一句挺有意思的话：你没法说清羽毛究竟是为保温还是为展示演化出来的，因为一旦羽毛出现，两个功能同时成立。一个特征被选中之后，第二种用途立刻会附着上来。生物学的常态是，一种结构同时干好几件事，谁也没规定它只能有一个用途。
演化做的改动，并没有重写
这是整期节目里最有分量的一段。霍恩说，四足动物的前肢几乎全是同一套模板：一根骨、两根骨、一堆小块的腕骨踝骨、再分出几根指骨。所有脊椎动物都在改同一张图纸，没人能凭空长出一根触手。蛇把四肢丢了，各种无腿蜥蜴和蚓螈也把四肢丢了，但那仍然是修改，并非重写。肺鱼把鳍简化成一堆细长的附肢，看着像鞭子，骨头的底层逻辑还是那套。
麻烦在于，改动会牵连。改这个会弄死你，那个就永远改不了，因为两者在发育上被绑在一起。雄狮的鬃毛越黑越受欢迎，可越黑越容易在热的地方中暑，于是赤道附近的狮子鬃毛颜色偏浅。摆到台面上的永远是折中方案，从来不存在最优解。
他举了人眼的例子。人的视网膜神经走线在感光细胞前面，光要先穿过神经层再打到感光细胞上，还留下一个盲点。章鱼的眼睛结构几乎一样，却没有这个问题，因为那是另一次独立演化，起点不同，图纸不同。讨论演化为什么没做得更好，本身就是个假问题。演化没有目标，它只是在已有的东西上继续改。
可就是这种修修补补，也能走出远路。提塔利克鱼（Tiktaalik）从水里爬上岸，那一步的前提是它本来就有个充气的囊，那个囊原本是用来控制浮沉的，顺带能交换一点氧气。功能先存在，用途后转移，这条路径慢慢延伸，最后延伸到城市和火箭。大的跃迁不看某一刻有多天才，看的是原来那套东西能被移用到什么别的地方。
数字大到人脑装不下，但账算得过来
他经常在课上顺口说，这个七千万年，那个一亿零四百万年。学生问，你怎么处理这些数字？他的回答是，我不处理，它们就是数字，我跟你们一样想象不出来。六千六百万年这个量级，人脑根本没有对应的直觉。
可是在数学上，演化并不神秘。一个物种哪怕只剩几千个个体，每个产几千个后代，持续几十万年，累乘下来的个体数量是天文级别。翻车鱼（Mola mola）单次产卵能到三亿枚，是脊椎动物的顶级记录。把问题从“这怎么可能演化出来”换成“一共有多少次摇骰子的机会”，几乎就不成问题了。
他自己修正过一个流行的说法。有人讲演化就是一直掷骰子，指望掷出全是六，他说不对，掷出来是六你就留下，剩下的继续掷，慢慢手里就攒满一手六了。选择做的是保留，一次性押中从来不是它的工作方式。
这门学问的研究对象，正在脚下风化掉
霍恩有个半开玩笑的著名主张：全世界的科研经费都该拨给古生物学。理由很实在：黑洞、中微子、晶体化学、熊猫遗传学，明天研究跟一百万年之后研究没区别。化石不行，它们只存在于正在被风化的岩层里，不挖出来就永久消失。也许某座山坡上正躺着一具比霸王龙大一倍的恐龙，一场风刮半年，从此人类永远不会知道它存在过。他强调这是玩笑，但话里的意思很认真：这是唯一一个研究对象正在消失的学科。
技术暂时帮不上大忙。《侏罗纪公园》里那种用地震波扫出整具骨架的方法，试过，不行。无人机能进到人到不了的地方，可人类用双眼扫地面时，头歪一点，看见的东西就完全不一样，那种分辨率和立体感无人机给不了。恐龙骨骼多孔，会吸收周围矿物，某些产地的化石带微弱放射性，强度却远不足以用来勘探。医用 CT 和核磁也不行，化石和围岩密度太接近，仪器分不开。骨头已经变成了石头，跟包着它的石头几乎是一回事，这正是最难的地方。
他讲过一件自己亲眼见过的事。在中国北方，同行指着一处山坡说那边有个爪子尖露出来，走近看，不到一厘米的一小截骨头从土里探出个头。几个人顺着往下挖，一点，再多一点，再多一点。几天之后，挖掘队回话：一具接近完整的骨架，最后命名成临河爪龙（Linheraptor），是伶盗龙的近亲，完整度九成以上。你在地表上能找到的永远是碎骨头，能撑到今天的完整骨架，都是差一点就要露头、又刚好没露头的那些。
他还讲了化石的埋藏学有多容易被忽略。同样一具骨架，如果所有肋骨和长骨都朝同一方向排列，说明尸体曾在流水里被冲过，水流把长条骨头转到迎流方向。这意味着它死的地方不在这里，也意味着那些轻的小骨头多半已经被冲走了，剩下的只是一个大件。至于那具骨架是被冲散的、被洪水堆到一起的、还是本来就死在那儿的，得靠沉积物、鱼鳞、碎屑这些旁人不会留意的细节来判。“三只恐龙埋在一起”这个观察本身，离“它们生前是一伙的”还有很长的路要走。
如果给他一百亿美元专门用在恐龙上，他的安排有点出人意料：一半建一座最好的博物馆。研究如果不去传达，在他看来就是浪费。剩下的钱，用来把全世界那些出化石的商业采石场买下来。买下之后给每个采石工人做培训，每挖到化石就发奖金，出土的东西全部无条件送进博物馆。这样一来，研究者不用掏钱，博物馆不用去求捐赠人，化石也不会流进某个富豪的门厅。买下那块地，东西就是我的，问题就解决了。
多挖一百具原角龙，胜过发现五十个新物种
他最后绕回那件头骨翻模，说了一段自己都承认有点逆着同行来的话：跟发现五十个新物种相比，多挖一百具原角龙，对理解恐龙更有用。
一个物种的科学价值，取决于它能回答多少问题。只有一两具标本的恐龙，你能讨论的只是外形和分类位置。原角龙这种上百具骨架、覆盖胚胎到成体、集中在十万年窗口内的物种，你能追问的是：性征在什么年龄出现，雄雌差异有多大，种群结构什么样，幼体死亡率多高，成长曲线是什么形状。新物种回答不了这些，样本量回答得了。
他也知道这个主张不讨喜。新物种能上头条、能拿经费、能写进新闻标题；多挖一百具同一种恐龙，看上去像重复劳动。可要真正理解恐龙怎么活着，就得把“一个物种”当成“一个种群”来处理，这一步早晚要走。
访谈最后，列克斯问他，研究了几亿年的演化，会不会有那么一刻，坐下来感叹这一切太不可思议。霍恩说自己会，但可能并不比平时更多。他不太把自己当成古生物学家，本质上是个生物学家，只是研究对象死了。肺鱼、飞蛙、毛毛虫、天鹅绒虫、盲鳗，随便一样他都能看半天。在乌干达看秃鹳在头顶盘旋，他的第一反应是，这东西的翼展只有我研究的那些大翼龙的四五分之一。
他说，人们对尺寸的执念是有道理的。蓝鲸就是比座头鲸更震撼，霸王龙、三角龙、风神翼龙、阿根廷龙就是更让人挪不开眼。可真正让恐龙这个类群特别的，是它们把大体型这件事维持了一亿多年，而且在几乎每一块陆地上都维持住了。今天的大象来了又走，鲸类达到过极致的尺寸但历史很短，一个世纪之内差点被人类清空。恐龙在地球上当了大约一亿四千万年的主角，这件事本身，比任何单一个体的尺寸都更难以理解。
他还在做另一件事，那就是把课堂上的东西讲给更多人。他开设一门关于生命多样性的课，讲脊椎动物讲了八周，最喜欢干的事就是往幻灯片里塞一些学生根本不敢信的东西。弹涂鱼在泥滩上爬，天鹅绒虫喷出胶水状的黏液捕猎，蚰蜒的生殖行为离谱到全班哗然。学生最常问的一句话是“你确定这种东西真的存在吗”，而他每次都确定。
几个能马上用上的判断标准
- 看骨架时别只看大，看头骨上的孔。开孔越大，说明那里原本是肌肉、不是骨头；骨壁越厚，说明这个部位要承受更大的力。霸王龙和南方巨兽龙的头骨并排一放，咬合力的差别一眼就能看出来，不需要任何数字。
- 看牙齿的形状，判断它怎么杀。圆锥形、横截面接近圆的牙，指向抓握滑溜的猎物，多半是鱼；薄而带锯齿的牙，指向切割和放血；厚实钝圆的牙，指向压碎骨头。三套方案对应三套完全不同的生活方式。
- 听到“某化石证明某动物如何”，先分清是哪一种情况：一具标本、一条线索，还是几条互相独立、方向一致的线索。棘龙吃鱼站得住，是因为头骨形状、牙齿形态、同位素、产出层位、胃内容物五条线索互不重叠却指向同一处。小盗龙“吃鱼”站不住，因为只有一具标本胃里的一条鱼。
- 亲缘近，行为未必近。狮子结群，猎豹雌性独居雄性结群，美洲豹独来独往，猎豹、美洲狮、花豹各有各的活法。所以不要因为恐爪龙可能结群，就推伶盗龙也结群。要判断一类动物的行为，得看它自己留下的直接证据，亲属的活法只能作参考。
- 把电影当电影看，但别让它替你做判断。《侏罗纪公园》里“霸王龙看不见静止物体”这条设定，克莱顿在续作里假托了一篇论文，几十年来没人找到过。娱乐归娱乐，可这个说法流传了三十年，比任何一篇真正的论文传播得都广。
- 想支持这门学科，方式比想象中具体。买周边不如关注自然史博物馆的会员和捐赠项目；看到靠谱的科普内容，转给会感兴趣的人。研究对象的消失速度是恒定的，公众关注度直接决定挖与不挖。
- 遇到“一具化石讲了一个故事”的说法，先问样本量。古生物学最硬的进展很少来自某个轰动的新物种，多半来自同一种动物被挖到第一百具、第一千具的时候。这条判断标准放回日常信息里也一样管用：一个案例能讲出好故事，一百个案例才讲得出真话。
T.
T。
00:00 rex is definitely weird, even compared to all the other giant tyrannosaurs that are very closely related to it, because it is by far, ludicrously by far, the largest carnivore in its ecosystem.
霸王龙绝对是奇怪的，即使与所有其他与它关系密切的巨型霸王龙相比，因为它是迄今为止，可笑的，其生态系统中最大的食肉动物。
So it doesn’t really have competition, actually.
所以实际上它并没有真正的竞争。
I mean, this is a Velociraptor skull.
我的意思是，这是迅猛龙的头骨。
00:16 There are some carnivores that are a bit bigger than this, but not enormously so, which were knocking around as T.
有一些食肉动物比这个大一点，但也不是很大，它们以 T 的身份四处游荡。
rex.
雷克斯。
The skull’s the same type, tooth, right?
头骨是同一类型，牙齿，对吧？
But like, you think about that— and that’s like going to Africa and going, “Okay, there are lions.
但是，你想一想，这就像去非洲然后说：“好吧，那里有狮子。
What’s the next biggest predator?” And it’s like, well, there’s a weasel about this big.
下一个最大的掠食者是什么？”就像，嗯，有一只这么大的黄鼠狼。
Like, it- it’s that kind of size difference and you don’t get that normally in ecosystems.
就像，它——就是这种大小差异，你在生态系统中通常不会得到这种差异。
It would eat the juveniles of the herbivores, but not—
它会吃食草动物的幼体，但不会——
Oh yeah, it’s going to be eating Triceratops, Edmontosaurus, and Parasaurolophus.
哦，是的，它会吃三角龙、埃德蒙顿龙和副栉龙。
00:53 There are even a couple of giant sauropods knocking around—
甚至还有几只巨型蜥脚类恐龙在附近徘徊——
Got it.
明白了。
in some places.
在某些地方。
00:59 It’s going to be hoovering them up, but like, how often is it going to eat…
它会把它们吸起来，但是就像，它多久吃一次......
Again, Velociraptor isn’t there, but how often is it going to eat something the size of an adult Velociraptor?
再说一次，迅猛龙并不在那里，但它多久会吃掉成年迅猛龙大小的东西呢？
I mean, they’re a fraction of our size, and we’re probably too small.
我的意思是，他们只是我们规模的一小部分，而且我们可能太小了。
This is like lions hunting mice.
这就像狮子捕食老鼠一样。
You’re just not going to, unless one, like, virtually runs into your mouth, you’re not going to go and try and eat it.
你只是不会，除非有一个，就像，实际上跑到你嘴里，你不会去尝试吃它。
The following is a conversation with Dave Hone, a paleontologist, expert on dinosaurs, co-host of the Terrible Lizards podcast, and author of many scientific papers and books on the behavior and ecology of dinosaurs.
以下是与戴夫·霍恩 (Dave Hone) 的对话，戴夫·霍恩是古生物学家、恐龙专家、可怕蜥蜴播客的联合主持人，也是许多有关恐龙行为和生态学的科学论文和书籍的作者。
01:23 This was truly a fun and fascinating conversation.
这确实是一次有趣且引人入胜的对话。
This is the Lex Fridman Podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description and consider subscribing to this channel.
为了支持它，请查看说明中的赞助商并考虑订阅此频道。
And now, dear friends, here’s Dave Hone.
现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是戴夫·霍恩。
01:56 Let’s start with the T.
我们先从T开始吧。
rex dinosaur, possibly the most iconic predator in the history of Earth.
霸王龙，可能是地球历史上最具标志性的掠食者。
You have deeply studied and written about their evolution, biology, ecology, and behavior, so let’s first maybe put ourselves in the time of the dinosaurs and imagine we’re standing in front of a T.
你已经深入研究并撰写了有关它们的进化、生物学、生态学和行为的文章，所以让我们首先把自己置于恐龙时代，想象我们正站在一只恐龙面前。
rex.
雷克斯。
What does it look like?
它看起来像什么？
What are the key features of the dinosaur in front of us?
我们面前的恐龙有哪些主要特征？
It’s gigantic.
这是巨大的。
02:18 It’s almost trite now because everyone knows T.
现在这几乎已经是老生常谈了，因为每个人都知道 T。
rex is massive.
雷克斯体型巨大。
But yes, if you actually stand in front of one, you would be seriously impressed just how absolutely vast they are.
但是，是的，如果你真的站在它们面前，你会对它们的巨大程度印象深刻。
So I’ve got a copy of a T.
所以我有一份T的副本。
rex skull downstairs from my office, and yeah, I could fit comfortably through its mouth.
霸王龙头骨就在我办公室楼下，是的，我可以舒服地穿过它的嘴。
So it would be just about capable of swallowing me whole, and I’m a pretty big guy.
所以它几乎能够把我整个吞掉，而且我是一个相当大的家伙。
Your body, you could fit- …
你的身体，你可以适应——……
02:44 in it’s, its mouth?
在它的嘴里？
I can fit through, I can fit through it.
我能闯过去，我能闯过去。
Wow.
哇。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
02:48 And it’s not even a particularly big one.
而且它甚至不是一个特别大的。
It’s a copy of the one that’s in the Smithsonian and they get bigger than that.
这是史密森尼博物馆的复制品，而且比那个更大。
You have a to-scale copy-
你有一个按比例缩放的副本 -
Yeah, it’s a cast, so it’s just a giant mold made, and then—
是的，这是一个铸件，所以它只是一个巨大的模具，然后——
Nice.
不错。
…pulled out like the dentist does your teeth, but very, very big.
……就像牙医拔牙一样，但是非常非常大。
03:02 So yeah, they are 12-ish meters long.
是的，它们有 12 米左右长。
So what’s that?
那是什么？
14 yards.
14 码。
Four and a half, maybe five to the top of the head standing up, so another six yards high and then seven-ish metric tons, what’s that?
四点半，也许五点到头顶站起来，那么另外六码高，然后七吨左右，那是什么？
About eight and a half short tons.
大约八短吨半。
So a colleague of mine, Tom Holtz, described them as an orca on land, but that’s it.
我的一位同事汤姆·霍尔茨（Tom Holtz）将它们描述为陆地上的逆戟鲸，但仅此而已。
It is a killer whale-sized animal but on legs, on land.
它是一种虎鲸大小的动物，但有腿，生活在陆地上。
And those are massive predators.
这些都是巨大的掠食者。
So you’re looking at something absolutely colossal, and I think that is what will stun you.
所以你看到的是绝对巨大的东西，我认为这会让你震惊。
03:40 I think people don’t realize how big a lot of animals are, which sounds weird, but I used to work in a few zoos and something I think you notice is when you go and see things like elephants or giraffes or rhinos, everything’s built to the scale of the animal.
我认为人们没有意识到很多动物有多大，这听起来很奇怪，但我曾经在几个动物园工作过，我想你会注意到，当你去看大象、长颈鹿或犀牛等动物时，一切都是按照动物的大小建造的。
The elephant house is huge, the doors are huge, the bars are huge, the food is huge, and so you don’t see them in the context of something that you have a good frame of reference for.
象屋很大，门很大，酒吧很大，食物也很大，所以你不会在你有良好参考框架的背景下看到它们。
And I learned this, yeah, when I was at London Zoo and was going into the basement of the old elephant and rhino pavilion and a rhino stuck its head out from like this gap in the wall and the head was twice the size I thought it was once you stood next to it.
我学到了这一点，是的，当我在伦敦动物园，走进古老的大象和犀牛馆的地下室时，一头犀牛从墙上的这个缝隙中伸出头来，它的头比你站在它旁边时想象的大两倍。
And the same with an elephant.
大象也是如此。
04:25 I once stood next to an elephant closer than you are to me now and you go, “Oh, oh, they are so much bigger than I thought.” And I think it’s similar in museums, like even when you get up relatively close to a T.
我曾经站在一头大象旁边，比你现在离我更近，你会说：“哦，哦，它们比我想象的要大得多。”我认为这在博物馆里也是类似的，即使你站得离 T 字形比较近。
rex skeleton, there’s a bit of space between you and it and then some bars, and then it’s usually raised up a little bit on a mount to hold the platform and then you stand back from that and you don’t actually get to stand like under them.
对于霸王龙骨架来说，你和它之间有一点空间，然后是一些栏杆，然后它通常会在支架上稍微升高一点以支撑平台，然后你从那里站起来，实际上你并不能像在它们下面那样站立。
And when you do that, yeah, you realize that, yeah, the foot finishes at my knee.
当你这样做时，是的，你意识到，是的，脚的终点是我的膝盖。
So is a T.
T亦如此。
04:58 rex bigger than an elephant?
霸王龙比大象还大？
Yeah.
是的。
That’d be fair to say?
可以这么说吗？
Yeah, I mean, a very large savanna African elephant is five to six tons, and we’re looking at seven plus.
是的，我的意思是，一头非常大的稀树草原非洲象重五到六吨，而我们正在考虑七吨以上。
05:01 And a biped and a carnivore.
还有两足动物和食肉动物。
So yeah, you know, a big lion, a big lion is 200 kilos, so 430 pounds.
所以，是的，你知道，一头大狮子，一头大狮子重 200 公斤，即 430 磅。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, that’s what—that’s why I mean, it’s why they consider it to be probably the most epic predator in the history of Earth.
好吧，这就是为什么我的意思是，这就是为什么他们认为它可能是地球历史上最史诗般的掠食者。
Yeah, I mean, and I think more than that, I think it’s one of the most iconic animals, period.
是的，我的意思是，我想的还不止于此，我认为它是最具标志性的动物之一。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean if you’re listing things that the average person has heard of: lion, elephant, giraffe, tiger, hippo, rhino, there’s a few more, but T.
我的意思是，如果你列出的是普通人听说过的东西：狮子、大象、长颈鹿、老虎、河马、犀牛，还有更多，但 T.
05:36 rex is coming somewhere up in that list.
雷克斯在该列表中的某个位置。
That’s how prominent it is as an animal, so yeah, it’s almost inescapable as a paleontologist, and then doubly so for me who works on dinosaurs and doubly so again ’cause I do work on tyrannosaurs.
这就是它作为一种动物的重要性，所以是的，作为一名古生物学家，它几乎是不可避免的，对于我研究恐龙的人来说更是如此，因为我研究霸王龙。
But yeah, it just dominates conversations.
但是，是的，它只是主导了谈话。
Well, some of the other features maybe we can go through.
好吧，我们也许可以了解一下其他一些功能。
Yeah, sure.
是的，当然。
So big skull, big head, small hands.
那么大的头骨，大头，小手。
Massive head, very kind of boxy.
头部巨大，非常四四方方。
06:11 It’s very robust.
它非常坚固。
Big forward-facing eyes, massive eyes.
向前看的大眼睛，巨大的眼睛。
Massive.
大量的。
I mean, tennis ball-sized eyes.
我的意思是，网球大小的眼睛。
These things had amazing eyesight.
这些东西有惊人的视力。
Yeah.
是的。
Giant teeth.
巨大的牙齿。
There’s a cast of a—
有一个演员阵容——
What?
什么？
…Tyrannosaurus rex tooth.
…霸王龙的牙齿。
What?
什么？
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
06:30 So-
所以——
How…
如何……
It, it, it looks a bit bigger than it is.
它，它，看起来比实际大一点。
06:32 So this is all root, so this would be stuck in the jaw.
所以这都是根，所以这会卡在下巴里。
This would be supporting it.
这将是支持它。
Right.
正确的。
06:36 But that tip part is-
但那个提示部分是-
But that-
但那个——
…
……
06:37 that’s the tooth?
那是牙齿？
The, the tip as you call it.
正如你所说的，小费。
06:38 And, yeah, you know, so that would comfortably go through pretty much any part.
是的，你知道，这样几乎可以轻松地完成任何部分。
Wow.
哇。
And then you realize just how thick it is.
然后你就会意识到它有多厚。
06:46 So, this is a cast of a thing called Carcharodontosaurus from Africa.
这是来自非洲的一种叫做鲨齿龙的生物的模型。
You get it down in Niger and a few other places like that.
你可以在尼日尔和其他一些类似的地方得到它。
And they’re very, very big, not as big as T.
而且它们非常非常大，没有T那么大。
rex, but not a million miles away.
雷克斯，但距离不到一百万英里。
And then if you look at the teeth in profile, they’re a surprisingly similar shape, and not far off in size as well.
然后，如果你观察牙齿的轮廓，它们的形状惊人地相似，而且大小也相差不远。
And then you look at them that way on, and you realize it’s a third of the width.
然后你继续看它们，你会发现它是宽度的三分之一。
So this isn’t just massive, it’s thick.
所以这不仅很大，而且很厚。
And of course, being thick, it makes it strong.
当然，厚的话就更坚固。
And with that giant head, with all that extra bone and then all the extra musculature attached to that giant head, they’ve got this uber powerful bite and the ability to just chomp through basically anything it wants to.
有了那个巨大的头部，有了所有额外的骨头，然后所有额外的肌肉组织都附着在那个巨大的头部上，它们就有了超级强大的咬合力，并且有能力咬碎基本上任何它想咬的东西。
07:35 So, yeah, they are truly unusual in that regard, even actually compared to a lot of the other very big tyrannosaurs; they’re often a kind of step above in their proportions.
所以，是的，它们在这方面确实很不寻常，甚至与许多其他非常大的暴龙相比也是如此。它们的比例通常高出一步。
So, incredible crushing power in the jaw?
那么，下巴具有令人难以置信的粉碎力吗？
Yeah.
是的。
07:47 And then, as you say, like this really short bull neck, because you’ve got this massive weight of this head up front that you need to hold it up and not tip forwards.
然后，正如你所说，就像这个非常短的公牛脖子，因为你的头部前面有很大的重量，你需要举起它而不是向前倾斜。
Really quite a massive body.
确实是一个相当庞大的身体。
Again, there’s two or three other big carnivorous dinosaurs which people argue, “Oh, maybe they’re a little bigger than T.
同样，还有两三种其他大型食肉恐龙，人们争论道：“哦，也许它们比霸王龙大一点。
rex, maybe they’re a little smaller,” but it’s always in terms of length, which is one way of looking at things.
霸王龙，也许它们小一点，”但总是以长度来衡量，这是看待事物的一种方式。
You know, pythons are very long, but they’re nothing like as massive as a lion or a tiger.
你知道，蟒蛇很长，但它们的体型却没有狮子或老虎那么大。
Same thing.
同样的事情。
T.
T。
rex is massive.
雷克斯体型巨大。
It is built.
它已建成。
So, really big, kind of barrel-shaped chest, making the body very, very big as well.
所以，胸部真的很大，有点像桶形，使得身体也非常非常大。
08:23 And so that’s why, yeah, there’s things like Giganotosaurus and Mapusaurus from South America, maybe they get a bit longer, another meter or so in length.
这就是为什么，是的，有来自南美洲的南方巨兽龙和马普龙，也许它们会变得更长一些，大约一米左右的长度。
But in mass, we’re talking about maybe only two-thirds, three-quarters.
但从整体来看，我们谈论的可能只是三分之二、四分之三。
So, T.
所以，T.
rex is just massively bigger than basically any other big carnivore we know of.
霸王龙比我们所知的任何其他大型食肉动物都要大得多。
And then, yeah, little arms as you say.
然后，是的，正如你所说，小手臂。
So, this is a, not great, but it’s a cast of a T.
所以，这不是很好，但它是 T 的演员。
rex arm.
雷克斯手臂。
It’s not the biggest animal.
它不是最大的动物。
They do get a bit bigger than this.
他们确实比这个大一点。
But as I love showing, it’s not a million miles off the size of my own.
但正如我喜欢展示的那样，它与我自己的尺寸相差不到一百万英里。
And I could do with a diet, but I don’t weigh seven tons.
我可以节食，但我的体重还不到七吨。
So, yeah, it really is really pretty small.
所以，是的，它确实非常小。
Two claws, two fingers.
两只爪子，两根手指。
Yeah, so two fingers.
是的，所以两个手指。
09:08 You will see sometimes that they say there’s a third, this is a slight misnomer.
有时你会看到他们说还有第三个，这是一个轻微的用词不当。
So, you do see this extra little bone here?
那么，你看到这根额外的小骨头了吗？
This doesn’t turn up in all of them, and it’s an extra hand bone.
这并没有出现在所有的人身上，而且它是一块额外的手骨。
So it’s these, the metacarpals, but it’s not supporting an extra digit.
所以就是这些，掌骨，但它不支持额外的手指。
So, mostly, functionality-wise, it wasn’t very functional.
所以，大多数情况下，从功能角度来看，它的功能性并不是很强。
They’re not doing very much at all.
他们根本没有做太多事情。
09:27 You know, this is what’s called the deltopectoral crest.
你知道，这就是所谓的三角肌嵴。
It’s really important for basically big arm movements, because it’s deltoids and pectorals.
这对于基本的大臂运动非常重要，因为它是三角肌和胸肌。
The radius and ulna are really quite thin, thinner than ours.
桡骨和尺骨真的很薄，比我们的还细。
The fingers are pretty stocky.
手指相当粗壮。
The claws look big and curved, and they are, but other tyrannosaurs, and indeed other carnivores generally, have much more curved claws.
爪子看起来又大又弯曲，确实如此，但其他霸王龙，实际上还有其他食肉动物，都有更弯曲的爪子。
And then they have these little things—oh, where can I show it?
然后他们有这些小东西——哦，我可以在哪里展示它？
There, there you can see there’s a little mark.
在那里，你可以看到有一个小标记。
That’s a ligamentous pit.
那是一个韧带凹坑。
And so, what you can imagine is if you’re trying to hold onto something and something’s wriggling, you want grip.
所以，你可以想象的是，如果你试图抓住某物，而某物正在蠕动，你就需要抓地力。
10:07 And there’s a risk that you’ll just dislocate your fingers.
而且您还存在手指脱臼的风险。
So we have ligaments that hold bone to bone.
所以我们有将骨头固定在骨头上的韧带。
And if you just put it flat to flat surface area, there’s only so much you can attach, whereas if you turn that into a little hemispherical dip, you get a lot more surface area for your area.
如果你只是把它平放在平坦的表面区域，你只能附着这么多，而如果你把它变成一个小的半球形凹陷，你的区域就会获得更多的表面积。
If that makes sense.
如果这是有道理的话。
10:26 So if you have a really big ligamentous pit, it means there’s a really big ligament, which means your fingers are really strong and they’re really resistant to being wiggled around and pulled, as if, you know, you’ve grabbed something that doesn’t want you to kill it.
所以，如果你有一个非常大的韧带坑，那就意味着有一个非常大的韧带，这意味着你的手指非常强壮，它们真的能抵抗被扭动和拉扯，就好像，你知道，你抓住了一些不想杀死它的东西。
Well, T.
嗯，T.
rex has probably the smallest ligamentous pits of any tyrannosaur.
霸王龙可能拥有所有霸王龙中最小的韧带凹坑。
So that kind of suggests it’s not doing very much.
所以这表明它并没有做太多事情。
And again, when you look at the claws, proportionally, they’re not that big and they’re not that curved.
再说一次，当你观察爪子时，按比例来看，它们没有那么大，也没有那么弯曲。
So even though it looks like quite a wicked thing to us, remember, put this on a seven-ton animal whose individual teeth are the size of entire fingers.
因此，尽管这对我们来说看起来很邪恶，但请记住，把它放在一个七吨重的动物身上，它的牙齿有整个手指那么大。
Suddenly that arm doesn’t look like it’s doing very much.
突然间，那只手臂看起来好像没什么作用了。
What about the feet?
脚呢？
So massive.
如此巨大。
11:04 Again, not surprisingly, you’re supporting a colossal amount of weight.
同样，毫不奇怪，您承受着巨大的重量。
But they have this beautiful adaptation in the foot.
但它们的脚有这种美丽的适应能力。
So the equivalent bones in the foot, the metatarsals, for us make up the flat of the feet.
因此，对于我们来说，脚部的相应骨骼，即跖骨，构成了足部的扁平部分。
But these animals walk like birds, they got three toes on the ground, and then the metatarsals stick nearly vertically.
但这些动物像鸟类一样行走，它们的三个脚趾着地，然后跖骨几乎垂直地固定。
That overall extends the length of the leg, so you can walk a little bit faster.
整体上延长了腿的长度，所以你可以走得更快一点。
You get a slightly bigger stride length.
您的步幅会稍大一些。
Don’t worry, I’ve got the right bone here.
别担心，我这里有正确的骨头。
Nice.
好的。
But, they also have…
但是，他们也有……
11:34 Yeah, there’s a good one.
是的，有一个很好的。
That one’s a great one.
那是一个很棒的。
But they also have this really neat adaptation in the middle bone.
但它们的中骨也有这种非常巧妙的适应。
So, you can see it on this one quite well, and this is actually not a tyrannosaur, this is an ornithomimosaur, so one of the really ostrich-like ones, Gallimimus from the first Jurassic Park.
所以，你可以在这个身上很好地看到它，这实际上不是霸王龙，这是一种似鸟龙，所以是真正像鸵鸟的恐龙之一，来自第一部《侏罗纪公园》的似鸡龙。
It has the same thing.
它有同样的东西。
You can see the normal bones would be really quite long and square and then flat at the top.
您可以看到，正常的骨头确实非常长且呈方形，然后顶部平坦。
And instead, this thing shrinks in the middle and turns into this kind of flattened diamond shape.
而这个东西反而是中间收缩了，变成了这种扁平的菱形。
And what that means is the bones either side kind of lock it.
这意味着两侧的骨头都会将其锁定。
In fact, at the top end, it actually tends to wiggle a bit, so it actually goes left and then right.
事实上，在顶端，它实际上倾向于有点摆动，所以它实际上先向左，然后向右。
12:16 And of course, what that really does is then help these things lock together.
当然，这真正的作用是帮助这些东西结合在一起。
And so this is an adaptation to basically lock the foot and make it stable, and we see it in a whole bunch of things, independently evolved.
所以这是一种基本上锁定脚并使其稳定的适应，我们在一大堆独立进化的事物中看到了它。
Early tyrannosaurs don’t have this.
早期的霸王龙没有这个。
Early ornithomimosaurs don’t have this.
早期的似鸟龙没有这个。
The oviraptodiraurs, the early ones don’t have this, and the later ones acquire it, and a couple of other groups as well.
偷蛋龙类，早期的没有这个，后来的有，其他一些类群也有。
And it’s about making the foot stable.
这是为了让脚保持稳定。
And what that really does is make the foot energy efficient.
这真正的作用是让脚部更加节能。
So you can imagine as an animal, you know, we have some cartilage, and we’ve got some ligaments and tendons joining all the bones together and holding joints stable.
所以你可以想象作为一种动物，你知道，我们有一些软骨，我们有一些韧带和肌腱将所有骨头连接在一起并保持关节稳定。
12:52 When you push down, that’s going to compress them to a little degree, and when you lift that weight off, they’re actually going to spring back.
当你向下推时，它们会受到一定程度的压缩，而当你抬起重量时，它们实际上会弹回来。
You’re going to get a tiny little energy return.
你将会得到一点点的能量回报。
It’s the idea of those air soles they put in all the trainers and stuff in the 90s.
这就是他们在 90 年代所有运动鞋和其他产品中采用的气垫的理念。
It’s that same principle.
也是同样的原理。
And you will, you’ll get a little bit of energy return, but of course, big force, particularly for a big, heavy animal, it’s going to take the kind of path of least resistance.
你会的，你会得到一点能量回报，但是当然，巨大的力量，特别是对于一个又大又重的动物来说，它会采取阻力最小的路径。
And so if your bones are all kind of loose in the foot, what they’re going to do is they’re going to tend to splay out, and you’re actually going to lose that energy.
因此，如果你脚部的骨头有点松动，它们会倾向于张开，而你实际上会失去这种能量。
13:25 But if you lock the feet together, the bones can’t move and instead, that’s going to further compress those soft tissue bits and give you a bit more spring.
但如果你把脚锁在一起，骨头就不能移动，相反，这会进一步压缩那些软组织，给你更多的弹性。
And this is all about…
而这一切都是关于……
13:35 I mean, this is about the mobility, about the dynamics of the movement.
我的意思是，这是关于流动性，关于运动的动态。
It makes you more efficient.
它让你更有效率。
13:40 It means you’re putting less energy in to walk, because you’re just getting a little bit of spring of every single step.
这意味着你走路时投入的能量更少，因为你的每一步都只是获得了一点弹性。
I should say that I deeply admire people like Russ Tedrake, like the Boston Dynamics teams, like the Tesla Optimus robot teams that look at bipedal and quadrupedal robot movement.
我应该说，我非常钦佩像 Russ Tedrake 这样的人，比如波士顿动力团队，比如研究双足和四足机器人运动的 Tesla Optimus 机器人团队。
13:48 And they try to make human-like movement to, you know, basically efficient movement.
他们试图使类似人类的运动成为基本上高效的运动。
And so the question here is, how the hell is a T-rex its size, bipedal, able to move as a predator?
所以这里的问题是，霸王龙这么大，双足，到底是如何能够像捕食者一样移动的呢？
It’s a weird body shape, is it not?
这是一个奇怪的体型，不是吗？
I mean, the big head makes it look more odd, but you look at dinosaurs as a whole, and over a third, probably 40, 45% is the group called theropods, which were all bipeds.
我的意思是，大头让它看起来更奇怪，但你把恐龙看作一个整体，超过三分之一，可能是 40%、45% 是兽脚类恐龙，它们都是两足动物。
14:16 So T-rex, Allosaurus, Velociraptor, Spinosaurus, many, many others that people may have heard of, they’re all bipeds built in this way.
所以霸王龙、异特龙、迅猛龙、棘龙以及人们可能听说过的许多其他动物，它们都是以这种方式构建的两足动物。
There’s a whole bunch of ancestral groups which were doing something very similar, including various crocodiles or relatives of crocodiles, and then the birds are bipeds.
有很多祖先群体在做非常相似的事情，包括各种鳄鱼或鳄鱼的亲戚，然后鸟类是两足动物。
Birds are actually doing it in a much weirder way than theropods are.
事实上，鸟类的行为方式比兽脚类恐龙要奇怪得多。
The theropods are basically a lizard on its back legs.
兽脚类恐龙基本上是后腿上的蜥蜴。
I’m oversimplifying a lot.
我过于简单化了。
I can hear paleontologists screaming, as I’ve just said, “It’s a lizard standing up.” It’s not a lizard standing up.
我能听到古生物学家的尖叫声，正如我刚才所说，“这是一只站着的蜥蜴。”这不是一只站着的蜥蜴。
15:01 But they’re doing a lot of the same stuff in the same way, and that is really functionally about where you put muscles, because what you really want to do to walk forwards is you want to basically pull the leg back so that you’re pushing the body off.
但他们以相同的方式做很多相同的事情，这实际上与你放置肌肉的功能有关，因为你真正想要向前行走的是你想要向后拉腿，这样你就可以将身体推开。
15:17 And the way they do that is the musculature on the tail.
他们做到这一点的方式是尾巴上的肌肉组织。
So we don’t have a tail, and indeed mammals that even do have a tail, you know, elephants and even lions, it’s a piddly little thing.
所以我们没有尾巴，事实上，哺乳动物甚至有尾巴，你知道，大象甚至狮子，这是一个很小的东西。
There’s not a lot of muscle there.
那里没有很多肌肉。
But if you look at a lizard, particularly if you look at something like a crocodile, you see this massive, massive block of muscle sitting on the first third to half of the tail.
但如果你观察蜥蜴，特别是鳄鱼之类的动物，你会看到这块巨大的肌肉位于尾巴的前三分之一到一半。
And that’s what dinosaurs are doing.
这就是恐龙正在做的事情。
It’s the same thing as lizards and crocs.
这与蜥蜴和鳄鱼是一样的。
They have this giant set of muscles on the first half of the tail that’s anchoring on the femur, so the thigh bone, on the back of that, and muscles contract.
它们的尾巴前半部分有一组巨大的肌肉，固定在股骨上，因此大腿骨位于其背面，肌肉会收缩。
That’s the one thing they do.
这就是他们做的一件事。
But now you’ve got a giant muscle.
但现在你已经拥有了一块巨大的肌肉。
Yeah, and T-rex, this muscle is like two and a half, three meters long.
是的，还有霸王龙，这块肌肉有两米半、三米长。
15:59 It’s going to be like this wide in the middle.
中间会像这么宽。
So when that contracts, the leg goes back, the foot’s stationary on the ground, so the animal goes forwards.
因此，当它收缩时，腿会向后移动，脚会固定在地面上，因此动物会向前移动。
So the tail is…
所以尾巴是……
Integral to movement.
与运动融为一体。
…so it’s a huge part of the biomechanics of the movement.
……所以它是运动生物力学的重要组成部分。
Yeah.
是的。
16:14 We do it with the butt.
我们用屁股来做。
So we’re kind of weirdly how we organize our muscles.
所以我们组织肌肉的方式有点奇怪。
But there’s a…
但有一个……
this is generally probably a better way of doing it, because you can get a really long muscle.
这通常可能是更好的方法，因为你可以获得很长的肌肉。
And of course, the longer the muscle, the more contraction you can have.
当然，肌肉越长，收缩就越多。
The hyper version of this is kangaroos.
它的超级版本是袋鼠。
So kangaroos supposedly get more efficient the faster they move.
因此，袋鼠移动得越快，效率就越高。
They get so much energy return that when they’re moving faster, they get more compression from the landing, meaning they get more spring.
它们获得了如此多的能量回报，以至于当它们移动得更快时，它们在着陆时会受到更大的压缩，这意味着它们会获得更多的弹簧。
So we should be imagining this gigantic thick tail, big body- …
所以我们应该想象这个巨大的粗尾、巨大的身体——……
16:44 big head- …
大头——……
and biped, and how fast does it move?
和两足动物，它移动的速度有多快？
So this is one of those things that’s gone backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards.
所以这是一件来来回回的事情。
16:56 There was a paper arguing that we’d probably been overestimating various speeds, primarily based on footprints.
有一篇论文认为，我们可能高估了各种速度，主要是根据足迹。
There’s been, I don’t know how many papers trying to do T-rex speed.
我不知道有多少篇论文试图研究霸王龙的速度。
The most recent one that was pretty detailed, I think, had it clocked at…
我认为最近的一份非常详细，它的时钟是……
So I think it was 25 miles an hour, so 40 kph was the very upper end of the estimate.
所以我认为每小时 25 英里，所以 40 公里/小时是估计的最高值。
So probably a bit less than that.
所以可能比这个少一点。
Well, that means it can move.
嗯，这意味着它可以移动。
Yeah.
是的。
17:29 That’s the thing.
就是这样。
Big things move quickly.
大事进展很快。
I’ve seen rhino and hippo going at full tilt, and yeah, they’re a lot quicker than you’d think.
我见过犀牛和河马全速前进，是的，它们比你想象的要快得多。
At least part of it is simply stride length.
至少有一部分只是步幅。
When your legs are three-ish meters long, it’s hard not to cover a lot of ground with a single step.
当你的腿有三米多长时，一步很难不走很多路。
And yeah, big theropods, T-rex, is going to be a power walker.
是的，大型兽脚类恐龙，霸王龙，将成为力量步行者。
It’s not going to run in the conventional biomechanical sense where both feet are off the ground at once.
它不会按照传统生物力学意义上的双脚同时离开地面的方式运行。
So it’s not running.
所以它没有运行。
18:02 It’s power walking.
这是力量行走。
Yeah.
是的。
18:03 But when you’ve got a four or five-meter-long stride, it doesn’t really matter whether you’re airborne or not.
但当你迈出四米或五米长的步幅时，是否在空中并不重要。
Power walking, so you’re never…
强力行走，让您永远不会……
18:11 Or running, there are moments in time when both feet are off the ground, and you’re saying likely here one foot is always on the ground.
或者跑步时，有时双脚都会离开地面，而你可能会说这里一只脚总是在地面上。
Yeah, pretty much has to be for loading.
是的，几乎必须用于加载。
Oh, just because of the mass of the thing?
哦，只是因为这东西的质量？
18:24 Okay.
好的。
All right.
好的。
You know, that’s the origin of cinema?
你知道，这就是电影的起源吗？
What’s that?
那是什么？
It’s where…
这是哪里……
18:30 This is Eadweard Muybridge.
我是埃德沃德·迈布里奇。
So the origin of cinema was a bet as to whether or not, whilst running, a horse had all four feet off the ground.
因此，电影的起源是赌一匹马在奔跑时四只脚是否离开地面。
And no one really knew this for sure.
没有人真正确定这一点。
And a guy called Eadweard Muybridge, he was British, but he was living in the States.
还有一个叫埃德沃德·迈布里奇的人，他是英国人，但他住在美国。
He was a keen photographer, and he basically did what people have seen the Wachowskis do for The Matrix.
他是一位热心的摄影师，他基本上做了人们看到沃卓斯基姐妹为《黑客帝国》所做的事情。
He set up a whole row of cameras and set up a whole bunch of triggers and had a horse run through them, so it took loads of photos.
他设置了一整排相机，设置了一大堆触发器，让一匹马穿过它们，所以拍了很多照片。
And lo and behold, in one of them, the feet were off the ground.
你瞧，其中一个人的脚离开了地面。
The guy won his bet.
那家伙赌赢了。
But he also realized that we already had things like zoopraxiscopes, you know, the little thing you spin with a slit?
但他也意识到我们已经有了像动物操作镜这样的东西，你知道吗，就是那种带有缝隙的旋转小东西？
19:12 So you see that…
所以你看到了……
Right.
对。
So he did that with horses.
所以他用马做到了这一点。
And now you have a moving photograph.
现在你有了一张动人的照片。
And that’s pretty much the origin of cinema.
这几乎就是电影的起源。
…A bet about biomechanics.
……关于生物力学的赌注。
Yeah, it’s always a good question and a bet, and there you go.
是的，这总是一个好问题和一个赌注，就这样。
19:23 You’re off to the races.
你要去参加比赛了。
All right, all right, so we’re standing in front of this thing.
好吧，好吧，所以我们站在这个东西前面。
How screwed are we, you and I?
你和我，我们有多糟糕？
We’re back in the time of the dinosaurs.
我们回到了恐龙时代。
What’s the probability of our survival?
我们生存的概率有多大？
There’s two big things to weigh up which are gonna be interesting, which is, would they even consider us a potential meal?
有两件很有趣的大事需要权衡，那就是，他们是否会认为我们是潜在的一顿饭？
19:38 Because we know that animals have to learn stuff.
因为我们知道动物必须学习东西。
And so animals that have never encountered things before often don’t have a response because they don’t know what their response should be.
因此，以前从未遇到过事情的动物通常不会做出反应，因为它们不知道自己应该做出什么反应。
We should say during that time, there was not something that looked like primates.
应该说，那个时候，还没有任何看起来像灵长类动物的东西。
No.
不。
20:03 Absolutely nothing.
绝对没有。
We, we…
我们，我们……
So we would look very weird, right?
所以我们看起来会很奇怪，对吧？
We would look weird, yeah.
我们看起来会很奇怪，是的。
20:06 So, you know, there are lots of really cool records, particularly you’ve got down in Indonesia and stuff, where you’ve got these insane volcanic spires, and it leads to these tiny little valleys.
所以，你知道，有很多非常酷的记录，特别是在印度尼西亚等地，那里有这些疯狂的火山尖顶，它通向这些小小的山谷。
And people go in there, and they go, “Yeah, the animals walk up to us.” They’ve never seen a human.
人们走进去，他们说：“是的，动物向我们走来。”他们从未见过人类。
They don’t know what it is.
他们不知道那是什么。
So it might look at us, and animals are fundamentally cautious.
所以它可能会看着我们，而动物从根本上来说是谨慎的。
It doesn’t know if we’re a threat.
它不知道我们是否是威胁。
So maybe it might just find us weird or in some way, shape, or form off-putting, and so we may not even be considered on the menu.
所以也许它可能只是觉得我们很奇怪，或者在某种程度上，形状或形式令人反感，所以我们甚至可能不会被考虑在菜单上。
The other thing is we might be too small.
另一件事是我们可能太小了。
My suspicion is we’re not.
我怀疑我们不是。
20:52 So animals, carnivores typically take stuff that is much, much smaller than them, despite basically every dinosaur documentary movie ever showing T-rex hunting an adult Triceratops, which is the same size as it.
因此，动物、食肉动物通常会吃比它们小得多的东西，尽管基本上每部恐龙纪录片都显示霸王龙狩猎与它大小相同的成年三角龙。
And every documentary, you’ve got to have lions taking down a wildebeest or even a buffalo.
每部纪录片中，都必须有狮子击倒角马甚至水牛。
These are weird and rare outcomes.
这些都是奇怪且罕见的结果。
These don’t usually happen.
这些通常不会发生。
The vast majority of active predation is on stuff much, much, much smaller than you.
绝大多数主动捕食都是针对比你小很多很多的东西。
I totted some of this up for a paper I did on Microraptor, this really small gliding dinosaur from China, where we actually have a bunch of specimens with various stomach contents in them.
我在一篇关于小盗龙的论文中总结了其中的一些内容，这是一种来自中国的小型滑翔恐龙，我们实际上在那里有一堆含有各种胃内容物的标本。
And we were coming up with numbers of about 5 to 20% of the mass being typical, so prey versus predator.
我们得出的数字大约是典型质量的 5% 到 20%，因此是猎物与捕食者的对比。
21:37 And that’s actually very similar to what we see with modern carnivores, and it’s not far off what we’ve seen even with things like tyrannosaurs, where you occasionally find consumed bones from prey.
这实际上与我们在现代食肉动物身上看到的情况非常相似，甚至与我们在暴龙这样的动物身上看到的情况也相差不远，在暴龙中你偶尔会发现猎物被吃掉的骨头。
So if we put the lower end of that as 5% of the mass of a T-rex, we might actually be okay.
因此，如果我们将其下限设为霸王龙质量的 5%，实际上可能没问题。
If it doesn’t consider us worth the hassle, then assuming you’re encountering a big adult and not a half-size one that maybe only weighs a ton, then we might be all right.
如果它认为我们不值得这么麻烦，那么假设你遇到的是一个大的成年人，而不是一个可能只有一吨重的半尺寸的成年人，那么我们可能会没事。
What would be the survival strategy?
生存策略是什么？
22:09 So there’s a thing that you criticized not being true that I guess in Jurassic Park is not moving.
所以你批评的一件事是不真实的，我想在侏罗纪公园里是不会动的。
Yeah, it’s nonsense.
是的，这是无稽之谈。
22:17 They can see really well.
他们看得很清楚。
Like I said, T-rex has giant eyeballs.
就像我说的，霸王龙有巨大的眼球。
People don’t realize that because like whales and like elephants, it looks small compared to the size of the animal, but what you’re…
人们没有意识到，因为像鲸鱼和大象一样，与动物的体型相比，它看起来很小，但你……
And really important for vision is absolute size, not proportional size.
对于视觉来说真正重要的是绝对尺寸，而不是比例尺寸。
And absolutely their eyes are gigantic.
他们的眼睛绝对是巨大的。
Probably the biggest on Earth at that time.
可能是当时地球上最大的。
Yeah.
是的。
22:40 A guy called Kent Stevens did a paper, and he’s got a really nice graphic of it.
一个叫肯特·史蒂文斯的人写了一篇论文，他有一张非常漂亮的图表。
If you just put S-T-E-V-E-N-S T-rex…
如果你只是放 S-T-E-V-E-N-S T-rex…
It’s the one with the…
这是一个带有...
There we go.
我们开始吧。
It’s the one with the googly eyes.
就是那个眼睛瞪得大大的。
That’s a baseball or a tennis ball-sized eyeball.
这是一个棒球或网球大小的眼球。
And when you think about the incredible visual acuity of something like an eagle, which has eyes not much bigger than ours, think about what that’s going to do.
当你想到像鹰这样令人难以置信的视觉敏锐度时，它的眼睛并不比我们大多少，想想它会做什么。
And we absolutely know, there’s been loads of studies on this in mammals and birds and other things as well, that basically eyeball size correlates with visual acuity.
我们绝对知道，在哺乳动物、鸟类和其他动物中也进行了大量的研究，基本上眼球大小与视敏度相关。
And that can fold in two different ways.
这可以通过两种不同的方式折叠。
It can be general sharpness, like, how well can you see a long way away?
它可以是一般的锐度，比如，你能看清远处的情况有多好？
So eagles and vultures, it’s really important.
所以老鹰和秃鹰，这真的很重要。
Or it can be good in low light.
或者在弱光下也能表现良好。
And I now discover that there’s a Nature Was Metal- …
我现在发现有一种自然是金属——……
23:30 subreddit-
Reddit 子版块-
On Reddit, yeah, yeah, for-
在 Reddit 上，是的，是的，因为——
…
……
23:35 which is looking at-
它正在看-
…
……
23:36 gnarly, gnarly paleo things.
粗糙的，粗糙的古东西。
Yeah, I come across it occasionally.
是的，我偶尔也会遇到。
For dinosaurs, let’s see what’s the top post of all time.
对于恐龙，让我们看看有史以来最热门的帖子是什么。
Oh, that’s a glyptodontid.
哦，那是雕齿兽。
An Argentinean farmer recently found a 20,000-year-old fossilized glyptodont.
一位阿根廷农民最近发现了一个有 2 万年历史的雕齿兽化石。
So these are giant armadillo-like animals with club tails.
这些是巨大的像犰狳一样的动物，长着棒状尾巴。
Interesting.
有趣的。
23:55 Wow.
哇。
Oh, that’s Black Beauty, and that’s at the Royal Tyrrell Museum.
哦，那是《黑美人》，就在皇家泰瑞尔博物馆。
23:56 So, giant eyeballs, they can either see very well, they can see a very long way in daylight, or they can see very well at night.
所以，巨大的眼球，它们要么看得很清楚，在白天看得很远，要么在晚上看得很清楚。
And my suspicion is it’s the latter.
我怀疑是后者。
I think they’re probably primarily nocturnal when they get that size.
我认为当它们达到这个尺寸时，它们可能主要是夜间活动的。
Well, not moving might be a good strategy because it’s cautious, because it doesn’t understand what these…
好吧，不移动可能是一个很好的策略，因为它很谨慎，因为它不明白这些……
24:11 …Primates are.
……灵长类动物是。
Yeah.
是的。
24:17 But I think if it starts coming towards you…
但我想如果它开始向你袭来……
If you’re truly in the open, then you’re in real trouble and I’m not sure what you do.
如果你真的公开了，那么你就有真正的麻烦了，我不确定你在做什么。
I mean, the one thing, the one advantage humans have over almost anything else on Earth, there’s a handful of exceptions, is we have range.
我的意思是，人类相对于地球上几乎所有其他事物的唯一优势（也有少数例外）是我们拥有射程。
I can pick up a rock and hurl it with reasonable accuracy.
我可以捡起一块石头并以合理的准确度投掷它。
Most things can’t do that, and animals probably don’t like being hit in the face or hit in the eyes with a rock at a range because, again, they’re not going to know how it’s happened or how to respond to this.
大多数事情都做不到这一点，动物可能不喜欢被远处的石头击中脸部或眼睛，因为它们不会知道这是如何发生的或如何对此做出反应。
All they know is they’re taking damage.
他们只知道自己正在受到伤害。
Yeah.
是的。
…and that’s bad.
……那很糟糕。
24:54 And that, that might genuinely be enough to do it.
这可能确实足以做到这一点。
I wouldn’t want to try, but again, if I was dumped on a plain or a prairie with nothing else but a T-rex that was interested in me, it’s worth a shot.
我不想尝试，但再说一次，如果我被扔到平原或草原上，除了一只对我感兴趣的霸王龙之外什么都没有，那就值得一试。
If you’re in the forest, I would try and get behind a tree.
如果你在森林里，我会尝试躲到树后面。
They’re quite good at turning.
他们非常擅长转弯。
There’s been a couple of nice papers looking at the mechanics of the foot and the ankle and how quickly they could pivot, but we’re much better because we’re just so much smaller.
有几篇不错的论文研究了脚和脚踝的力学以及它们转动的速度，但我们要好得多，因为我们小得多。
So it would be very kind of Looney Tunes, but I think you could go round and round a big tree…
所以这会很像乐一通，但我想你可以绕着一棵大树转来转去……
…Much faster than it could.
……比原来快得多。
And so- …it’s going to get bored or lack interest sooner or later.
所以——……它迟早会感到无聊或缺乏兴趣。
So let’s zoom out.
所以让我们缩小。
25:39 What did it eat?
它吃了什么？
I mean, you could go for the classic joke of whatever it wanted, but the reality is the relatively big herbivores that are around at the time, it’s probably largely leaving them alone because, again, just the classic dynamics of predators, even superpredators like Tyrannosaurus, they’re still real animals.
我的意思是，你可以随心所欲地听经典笑话，但现实是当时存在相对较大的食草动物，这可能在很大程度上让它们独自一人，因为，再一次，只是捕食者的经典动态，甚至是像霸王龙这样的超级捕食者，它们仍然是真正的动物。
25:42 If you get injured and you can’t hunt, that’s probably the end of you.
如果你受伤而无法狩猎，那你可能就完蛋了。
So you don’t want to tackle an adult Triceratops that weighs the same as you and has meter, meter and a half long horns on its head and is potentially pretty aggressive.
所以你不想对付一只成年三角龙，它的体重与你相同，头上有一米半长的角，而且可能非常具有攻击性。
And then even the big hadrosaurs, the kind of classic duck-billed dinosaurs, they’re not present with any obvious defenses.
即使是大型鸭嘴龙，一种经典的鸭嘴恐龙，它们也没有任何明显的防御能力。
They don’t have armor.
他们没有盔甲。
26:31 They don’t have horns or spikes or anything like this, but they’re simply massive.
它们没有角或尖刺之类的东西，但它们体型巨大。
Again, yes, T-rex has got the teeth and the bite, and even if they’re a bit rubbish with the claws on the hands, but just grappling another animal which is the same size as it, there’s a risk you’re going to get a foot trodden on, that it’s going to get off some kind of body slam or whatever.
再说一次，是的，霸王龙有牙齿和咬伤，即使它们手上的爪子有点垃圾，但只要抓住另一只和它一样大小的动物，你就有被踩到脚的风险，它会摆脱某种身体猛烈的撞击或其他什么。
And then even if you do bring it down, you’re never going to eat it.
即使你把它弄下来，你也永远不会吃它。
If you bring down an animal that weighs five tons, it’s nearly your own mass.
如果你打倒一只重达五吨的动物，那么它的质量几乎就是你自己的质量。
You’re not going to eat it before it goes rotten.
在它腐烂之前你不会吃它。
That’s a huge amount of not like wasted energy, but you’ve probably put a lot of effort into this and you’re not getting that much reward out.
这是一个巨大的数字，不像浪费能源，但你可能为此付出了很多努力，但你却没有得到那么多的回报。
27:09 And again, there are exceptions.
再说一次，也有例外。
You’ve got things like lynx, the classic one.
你有像山猫这样的东西，经典的。
Lynx are not very big cats, and yet they’ll hunt adult deer way bigger than them.
山猫不是很大的猫科动物，但它们会猎杀比它们大得多的成年鹿。
Lions hunt things like buffalo, but they’re operating in a group, so it’s a bit of a cheat.
狮子捕猎水牛之类的动物，但它们是群体行动，所以这有点作弊。
So there are some things that do this, but fundamentally, the vast majority of carnivores tackle stuff that’s way, way smaller than them, and that’s what we see.
所以有些东西可以做到这一点，但从根本上来说，绝大多数食肉动物处理的东西比它们小得多，这就是我们所看到的。
Every record we have of basically any large carnivorous dinosaur where you have stomach contents, whether it’s like consumed something or healed bite marks, we get quite a few.
我们所掌握的基本上所有大型食肉恐龙的每条记录中，都有胃内容物，无论是吃掉的东西还是愈合的咬痕，我们都会得到很多。
27:45 There’s a handful of them where there’s obvious damage to a bone, in more than a couple of cases with a tooth broken off in the bone, and then the bone has healed over it, so you know, it got away.
其中有少数骨头有明显的损伤，在不止几个案例中，牙齿在骨头上折断，然后骨头已经愈合了，所以你知道，它逃脱了。
They’re juveniles.
他们是青少年。
They’re relatively young animals.
它们是相对年轻的动物。
28:00 And that’s what they’re targeting.
这就是他们的目标。
It makes ecological sense.
这具有生态意义。
It’s what modern animals do for very good reason.
现代动物这样做是有充分理由的。
Juveniles are relatively small and weak.
青少年体型相对较小且较弱。
They don’t have the horns or frills or armor or shields and other stuff.
他们没有角、装饰、盔甲、盾牌和其他东西。
They’re naive.
他们很天真。
They often have to learn what predators are, or you have to learn how to avoid them or to check the wind or even physically see them, or see them kill something else before you know that they’re a threat.
它们通常必须了解什么是掠食者，或者你必须学会如何避开它们或检查风向，甚至亲眼看到它们，或者在你知道它们是威胁之前看到它们杀死其他东西。
And juveniles forage badly.
幼年的觅食能力很差。
They’re relatively inefficient, so actually they need to eat more for their size than an adult does.
他们的效率相对较低，因此实际上他们需要比成年人吃更多的东西。
And then on top of that, they’re not very experienced at foraging in the right areas.
最重要的是，它们在正确的区域觅食方面缺乏经验。
And even if they can find a good patch, the adults will often beat them up and chase them off.
即使它们能找到一块好地方，大人们也常常会殴打它们并将它们赶走。
You’re talking about juveniles across various species?
你说的是不同物种的幼体？
Everything.
一切。
28:49 This is just a universal pattern of being a smaller animal versus a larger, or a younger animal versus a larger animal.
这只是较小动物与较大动物或较年轻动物与较大动物的普遍模式。
So, so hunting young, uh-
所以，这么年轻就狩猎，呃-
Young things.
年轻的东西。
…
……
28:58 young things is easier.
年轻的事情比较容易。
Yeah because-
是的，因为-
Because they’re dumb.
因为他们很蠢。
Right.
正确的。
29:01 They’re dumb, but they’re inexperienced.
他们很笨，但他们缺乏经验。
Inexperienced.
缺乏经验。
But they’re often feeding in suboptimal areas.
但它们经常在次优区域进食。
29:03 This is the place with all the best food.
这是拥有所有最好食物的地方。
The adults will kick you off, so now you have to feed somewhere else.
大人们会把你踢开，所以现在你必须去别的地方吃东西。
Maybe the food isn’t as good, in which case you need to eat more of it, so it takes longer, or maybe it’s the one next to the edge of the forest where the T-rexes hide.
也许食物不太好，在这种情况下你需要吃更多的食物，所以需要更长的时间，或者可能是霸王龙隐藏的森林边缘旁边的食物。
But either way, you’re stuck there, and then you don’t really know what you’re looking for, and you haven’t got the armor, so guess who’s getting eaten?
但无论哪种方式，你都被困在那里，然后你并不真正知道你在寻找什么，而且你也没有盔甲，所以猜猜谁会被吃掉？
Again, there are lots of exceptions.
同样，也有很多例外。
You can’t have nature without things like that.
没有这样的东西你就不可能拥有自然。
29:32 But this is the absolute rule of thumb for how foraging and growth and predation operate across everything from fish to starfish, praying mantises, all the way up to things like big cats via stuff like crocodiles.
但这是从鱼类到海星、螳螂，一直到像鳄鱼这样的大型猫科动物的觅食、生长和捕食如何运作的绝对经验法则。
It’s how it works.
这就是它的工作原理。
So it’d be very weird if it didn’t also operate for dinosaurs.
因此，如果它不适用于恐龙，那就太奇怪了。
And then, as I say, we’ve actually got the direct evidence for this from bite marks and stomach contents.
然后，正如我所说，我们实际上从咬痕和胃内容物中得到了直接证据。
They’re taking small stuff.
他们拿的是小东西。
Bite marks give a lot of information.
咬痕提供了很多信息。
Yeah.
是的。
That’s a powerful signal in paleontology.
这是古生物学中的一个强有力的信号。
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
30:04 I’ve done really quite a lot of work on it, and they can tell you an awful lot if you’ve got the right understanding of the burial conditions, because, a weird thing that I think a lot of people don’t appreciate is you basically can’t take fossils at face value, particularly when you’re trying to get into stuff like behavior and ecology because between the animal dying and the paleontologist digging it up, potentially quite a lot has happened, and that’s where it’s really easy to start misinterpreting things, because if you just go…
我确实在这方面做了很多工作，如果你对埋葬条件有正确的了解，他们可以告诉你很多，因为，我认为很多人不欣赏的一件奇怪的事情是，你基本上不能只看化石的表面价值，特别是当你试图研究行为和生态学之类的东西时，因为在动物死亡和古生物学家挖掘它之间，可能发生了很多事情，这就是它很容易开始的地方误解事情，因为如果你去……
I had one like this not too long ago where I was an editor on a paper, and the authors had done a pretty good job, to be fair, but it was this discussion of whether or not several animals were together at the time of their death.
不久前，我曾有过这样的经历，当时我是一篇论文的编辑，公平地说，作者做得相当不错，但这是关于几种动物死亡时是否在一起的讨论。
30:51 So multiple theropods together in this quarry.
所以在这个采石场里有多种兽脚亚目恐龙。
And it’s like, right, but there was loads of debris and you had loads of things like fish scales and other small bones.
就像，是的，但是有很多碎片，还有很多鱼鳞和其他小骨头之类的东西。
And it’s like, okay, but this looks like these animals potentially died somewhere else, and then a flood or a river washed them into this bay or a channel, or the water level dropped and they ended up together.
就像，好吧，但这看起来这些动物可能死在其他地方，然后洪水或河流将它们冲进这个海湾或渠道，或者水位下降，它们最终聚集在一起。
But that doesn’t necessarily mean they were together when they died.
但这并不一定意味着他们死时是在一起的。
So just because you’ve got three animals together, what is potentially the story of how they got there?
那么仅仅因为你把三只动物放在一起，那么它们是如何到达那里的可能有什么故事呢？
So you have to consider multiple explanations and then try to figure out what is the most likely.
所以你必须考虑多种解释，然后尝试找出最有可能的解释。
Yeah, or what can you test with various bits of evidence?
是的，或者你可以用各种证据来测试什么？
31:31 So there were some tyrannosaur-inflicted bite marks on a duck bill from Mongolia that I worked on years ago.
因此，我几年前研究过的一只来自蒙古的鸭嘴上有一些霸王龙咬伤的痕迹。
The specimen was from Mongolia, but it was held in Japan in a Japanese museum.
该标本来自蒙古，但保存在日本的一家日本博物馆中。
I was working with the Japanese on it, and I’m not a taphonomist, or the study of decay and the history of specimens, and I am in no way, shape, or form a geologist.
我正在与日本人一起研究这个问题，我不是埋藏学家，也不是研究腐烂和标本历史的人，我也绝不是地质学家。
I did zoology for my degree, but the guys I was working with were really hot on erosion and damage, and they were looking at some of the way the bones had been damaged, and they’re like, “Okay, we’re pretty confident that the bite marks are sitting on top of erosion.”
我攻读的是动物学学位，但和我一起工作的人对侵蚀和损伤非常感兴趣，他们正在研究骨头受损的一些方式，他们说，“好吧，我们非常有信心，咬痕位于侵蚀的顶部。”
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
So it means that the animal had died, and it was found in a sand-covered area, but in what would have been a river channel.
所以这意味着这只动物已经死亡，而且它是在沙子覆盖的区域被发现的，但在本来应该是河道的地方。
32:15 So this animal has died, washed downstream, ended up on a sandbank.
所以这只动物死了，被冲到下游，最后落在沙洲上。
The sand is whipping past because I’ve been in a sandstorm in…
沙子正在呼啸而过，因为我经历过沙尘暴……
…In China.
……在中国。
It is not fun, and that’s starting to etch some of the bones and damage them.
这并不有趣，而且这会开始腐蚀一些骨头并损坏它们。
And after that does a bite mark?
之后有咬痕吗？
After that, you’re getting bite marks coming in.
之后，你就会出现咬痕。
32:37 So that…
那么……
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
…can only be scavenging.
……只能捡拾。
32:41 That thing has been dead and sitting out for days, possibly weeks, before something came along and chewed on it.
那东西已经死了，搁置了好几天，甚至可能好几周，然后才出现了一些东西并咀嚼它。
Wow.
哇。
It pretty much can’t have happened any other way.
这几乎不可能以任何其他方式发生。
And you have to take these really subtle signals to- …
你必须将这些非常微妙的信号——
32:51 to reconstruct the story.
来重建这个故事。
But then you can start piecing some other stuff together.
但随后你可以开始将其他一些东西拼凑在一起。
32:56 So in this case, the skeleton is pristine.
所以在这种情况下，骨架是原始的。
It’s one of the best hadrosaur skeletons out there.
它是最好的鸭嘴龙骨骼之一。
It’s certainly the best from Mongolia I’ve ever seen, and all the bite marks are on one bone, the humerus, the upper arm bone.
这当然是我见过的最好的蒙古人，所有的咬痕都在一根骨头上，肱骨，上臂骨。
Every mark, we went over the rest of the skeleton, nothing, and then the humerus is chewed to bits.
每一个痕迹，我们都检查了骨骼的其余部分，什么也没有，然后肱骨被嚼成碎片。
There are bites all over it, but when you look, there are two really distinctive patterns.
到处都是咬痕，但当你仔细观察时，你会发现有两种非常独特的图案。
There are deep circular punctures, and remember what the shape of this thing looks like…
有很深的圆形刺孔，记住这个东西的形状是什么样子的……
Yeah.
是的。
…at the ends and then along the deltopectoral crest.
……在末端，然后沿着三角肌嵴。
33:27 Okay, it’s much, much bigger in a hadrosaur, but this bit, remember, that’s where all the big muscles attach.
好吧，鸭嘴龙的体型要大得多，但是请记住，这就是所有大块肌肉的附着处。
There are all these types of–this is from a different bone, different animal, but all these types of close parallel scratches.
有所有这些类型——这是来自不同的骨头、不同的动物，但所有这些类型的划痕都是紧密平行的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
33:43 Wow.
哇。
And so that looks like selective feeding because it’s using its giant crunchy teeth at the ends to get the bone off, and this is off a buried skeleton, and then it’s got these–actually, T.
这看起来像是选择性进食，因为它用末端巨大的脆脆牙齿把骨头取下来，这是从埋藏的骨骼上取下来的，然后它就得到了这些——实际上，T。
rex has really small teeth at the front of its mouth, right in the front where our incisors are.
霸王龙的嘴前部有非常小的牙齿，就在我们门牙所在的前面。
They’re called incisiform teeth, they look like incisors.
它们被称为切齿，看起来像门牙。
They’re a fraction of the size of the big ones, and they’ve got a really weird flat back.
它们的尺寸只是大鱼的一小部分，而且它们的背部非常奇怪。
And that’s what these are.
这就是这些。
It’s hidden this with the front of the mouth and pulling.
它用嘴的前部和拉力将其隐藏起来。
And that’s mostly for eating?
而且主要是为了吃吗？
Yeah, and that’s why it’s just on the deltpectoral crest, ’cause that’s where all the muscles are.
是的，这就是为什么它只在三角肌嵴上，因为那是所有肌肉所在的地方。
34:19 So I always liken it to getting something like an Oreo, and you take the top off, and then you scrape the cream out with your teeth.
所以我总是把它比作像奥利奥这样的东西，你把顶部取下来，然后用牙齿把奶油刮掉。
It- I think most people have done that.
我想大多数人都这么做过。
Right, but that’s what it’s doing.
是的，但这就是它正在做的事情。
So it’s got this little row of teeth.
所以它有这一排小牙齿。
And everywhere you get lots of muscle, you get little rows of teeth together pulling.
只要有大量肌肉，就会有小排牙齿一起拉动。
So there’s different bite marks for sort of fighting, killing, and then there’s different bite marks for eating.
因此，打斗、杀戮时有不同的咬痕，进食时也有不同的咬痕。
Yeah, so it kills and dismembers with the big teeth up the side- …
是的，所以它用侧面的大牙齿杀死并肢解——……
34:48 and then it feeds with the little front teeth.
然后它用小门牙进食。
And all of that has evidence?
而这一切都有证据吗？
34:52 In the bones?
在骨头里？
What hunting strategy does it use?
它使用什么狩猎策略？
Can we f- figure that out?
我们能弄清楚吗？
So that comes down to that foot stuff.
所以这归结于脚的问题。
35:00 They’re relatively efficient compared to a lot of other things, and particularly compared to the herbivores, so that means they’re probably looking at long distance rather than speed.
与许多其他动物相比，特别是与食草动物相比，它们的效率相对较高，因此这意味着它们可能关注的是长距离而不是速度。
And that makes sense because even though the kind of stuff we’re talking about, like I said, maybe they get into 20, 25 miles an hour, that’s pretty quick, but some of the smaller stuff is going to be a lot faster than that.
这是有道理的，因为即使我们正在谈论的那种东西，就像我说的那样，也许它们的时速可以达到 20、25 英里，这已经相当快了，但一些较小的东西会比这快得多。
And remember, that’s a real upper estimate.
请记住，这是一个真正的上限估计。
They’re probably not that quick, but yeah, almost…
他们可能没那么快，但是，是的，几乎……
They’re just jogging after you.
他们只是在跟着你慢跑。
Right, but they’ve got the distance, so yeah, so it’s much more…
是的，但他们有距离，所以是的，所以距离要远得多……
35:32 …
……
A hyena or wolf-like strategy than like a cheetah going for hyper-speed or a lion going for a relatively quick burst, and it either gets you or it doesn’t.
类似于鬣狗或狼的策略，而不是像猎豹追求超速度或狮子追求相对快速的爆发，它要么能抓住你，要么不会。
And then people kind of then just go, “Well, like, but that’s ridiculous, like, they’re not even that quick,” and it’s like, yeah, but if you’re hunting something big that’s not that quick either, and so that’s a misconception.
然后人们就会说，“嗯，就像，但这很荒谬，就像，他们甚至没有那么快，”就像，是的，但如果你正在寻找一些大的东西，那也没有那么快，所以这是一个误解。
Like when I’m talking about juvenile dinosaurs, I don’t mean just out of the egg and weigh a kilo.
就像当我谈论幼年恐龙时，我指的并不是刚从蛋里出来、重一公斤的恐龙。
Like a juvenile Triceratops can still weigh a ton-
就像幼年的三角龙一样重达一吨——
36:09 And be the size of a rhino.
并且有犀牛那么大。
They’re not that fast, and again if you get a head start on them because, as I said, I suspect they’re nocturnal, so that’s the other thing, it’s really hard to hide a T.
它们的速度没那么快，而且如果你抢先一步，因为正如我所说，我怀疑它们是夜间活动的，所以这是另一回事，隐藏 T 真的很难。
rex, even lions and tigers struggle to kind of hide in long grass.
霸王龙，甚至狮子和老虎也很难躲在长草丛中。
When you’re three and a half, four meters tall, you can’t hide.
当你身高三米半、四米时，你就无法隐藏了。
Maybe in a forest, but even then, you’re probably going to stick out and it’s going to be hard to maneuver between the trees.
也许在森林里，但即便如此，你也可能会很突出，并且很难在树林之间移动。
And we’ve got big tyrannosaurs living in what we know to have been relatively open environments.
我们知道大型暴龙生活在相对开放的环境中。
Maybe there’s some stands of trees, but it’s not like a woodland or a forest or anything like that.
也许有一些树木，但它不像林地或森林或类似的东西。
So they’re living in the open and surviving in the open, so they’ve got to have a way of doing this.
所以他们在露天生活并在露天生存，所以他们必须有办法做到这一点。
36:52 And I think it’s either, or some combination of, being nocturnal, so it’s relatively easy to…
我认为它要么是夜间活动，要么是夜间活动的某种组合，所以相对容易……
Sneak isn’t quite the right word, but approach things to cut the distance down for your initial strike, and then just running them down.
“潜行”这个词不太恰当，但应该接近事物来缩短你最初攻击的距离，然后将它们跑下来。
Because yeah, maybe a one-ton Triceratops or one-ton Hadrosaur is rather faster than you, but if you’ve covered the first couple of hundred meters to get up to your top speed before they start running, then you’re probably much closer to them.
因为，是的，也许一吨重的三角龙或一吨重的鸭嘴龙比你快得多，但如果你在它们开始奔跑之前跑了前几百米以达到你的最高速度，那么你可能离它们更近。
And then will they exhaust faster than you’ll keep going?
然后他们会比你继续前进的速度更快吗？
Well, probably not 100% of the time.
嗯，可能不是 100% 的情况。
No predator’s that effective.
没有捕食者那么有效。
But I suspect that’s what they’re doing, and it fits with what we know of their size, their vision.
但我怀疑这就是他们正在做的事情，这符合我们对他们的规模和愿景的了解。
They’ve got a very good sense of smell.
他们有很好的嗅觉。
Again, that makes sense at night.
再说一次，这在晚上是有意义的。
37:39 It makes less sense if you’re diurnal and operating primarily in the day.
如果您是昼夜活动并且主要在白天工作，那么它就没有意义。
And you’ve got to hide this thing, and then we know they’re pretty efficient versus relatively fast but not that efficient prey.
你必须隐藏这个东西，然后我们就知道它们相当高效，而不是速度相对较快但不是那么高效的猎物。
Well, there’s a bit of a debate of scavenger versus hunter.
嗯，关于拾荒者和猎人之间存在一些争论。
They’re obviously both.
他们显然都是。
37:55 A, because we’ve got things like the bite marks I just described, which is pretty much definitive scavenging, and then we’ve got the healed bite marks with T-rex teeth buried in bones, which is pretty much definitive active predation.
答，因为我们有像我刚才描述的咬痕这样的东西，这几乎是明确的食腐行为，然后我们得到了愈合的咬痕，霸王龙的牙齿埋在骨头里，这几乎是明确的主动捕食。
So we’ve got evidence of it doing both.
所以我们有证据表明它同时做到了这两点。
But can we possibly figure out what was the primary strategy?
但我们能否弄清楚主要策略是什么？
That gets much harder.
这变得更加困难。
38:15 My guess is they’re probably still primarily actively carnivorous.
我的猜测是，它们可能仍然主要是活跃的肉食性动物。
Because if you look at stuff that’s reliant on being a scavenger, I mean, the true scavengers, like the vultures and condors and stuff like this, you have to be ultra-long distance, very energy efficient travelers.
因为如果你看看那些依赖于清道夫的东西，我的意思是，真正的清道夫，比如秃鹰和秃鹰之类的东西，你必须是超长距离、非常节能的旅行者。
You know, they’re soaring in thermals.
你知道，它们在热气流中翱翔。
They’re barely using any energy to fly.
它们几乎不消耗任何能量来飞行。
It’s really hard to get very far.
真的很难走得很远。
How far were they spread?
它们传播了多远？
38:45 Where did they live?
他们住在哪里？
So the ones we’ve found, you’ve got them from Alberta down to probably New Mexico.
所以我们发现的那些，你可以从艾伯塔省一直到新墨西哥州。
38:49 I want to say there’s some tyrannosaurine, so very close to T-rex, teeth that may or may not be T-rex in New Mexico.
我想说的是，有一些霸王龙，非常接近霸王龙，它们的牙齿可能是也可能不是新墨西哥州的霸王龙。
There’s similar teeth in Mexico proper, down in Coahuila, about halfway down Mexico.
墨西哥本土也有类似的牙齿，位于墨西哥中部的科阿韦拉州。
Mongolia also, or no?
蒙古也，还是没有？
So in Mongolia, you have a thing called Tarbosaurus, which is a very, very close relative of T-rex.
在蒙古，有一种叫做特暴龙的动物，它是霸王龙的近亲。
39:13 It’s the nearest species, or nearest genus, that we have.
它是我们拥有的最近的物种或最近的属。
But T-rex is probably occupying almost all of western North America.
但霸王龙可能几乎占领了整个北美西部。
Okay.
好的。
So at times, the east was kind of split off and separate.
所以有时，东方是分裂和分离的。
But the entire surface of Earth had dinosaurs on it.
但整个地球表面都有恐龙。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Well, most of it.
嗯，大部分。
Yeah, we’ve got them in Antarctica.
是的，我们在南极洲有它们。
39:35 We’ve got them in Antarctica even close to the mass extinction event.
甚至在大灭绝事件临近时，我们就在南极洲发现了它们。
Just an insane number of dinosaur species all over the Earth, just the same kind of variety we have in the animal kingdom today, you just have in the dinosaur.
地球上的恐龙种类数量惊人，与我们今天动物王国中的恐龙种类相同。
I mean, this is…
我的意思是，这是……
39:50 how many dinosaur species were there?
恐龙有多少种？
I mean, I basically wrote an entire book chapter about this because there are so many…
我的意思是，我基本上写了关于此的一整本书章节，因为有太多......
But this would make the number high, but this would make the number lower, but this would make the number high, but this would make the number lower, counter versus counterarguments, that you can guesstimate almost any number and probably be very accurate or very far out.
但这会使数字变高，但这会使数字变低，但这会使数字变高，但这会使数字变低，反驳与反驳，你可以猜测几乎任何数字，并且可能非常准确或非常遥远。
Yeah, but we should say that a large number of dinosaur species are constantly being discovered.
是的，但我们应该说，大量的恐龙物种正在不断被发现。
Yeah, so we’ve named, give or take, in the realm of 1,500, 1,600 valid species.
是的，所以我们已经命名了 1,500、1,600 个有效物种。
40:19 Though not everyone agrees on every species, most people would be satisfied with that number.
尽管并非每个人都同意每个物种，但大多数人都会对这个数字感到满意。
But we also name in the realm of 40 to 50 a year, and we’ve been doing that for at least the last 10, 12 years.
但我们每年也会命名 40 到 50 个，而且至少在过去 10、12 年里我们一直这样做。
That number is rocketing up.
这个数字正在飙升。
It shows no signs of slowing down.
它没有显示出放缓的迹象。
There are loads of areas.
有很多区域。
Like, we still never really explored India very much.
就像，我们仍然没有真正深入探索过印度。
We’re starting to find entirely new beds in places like Ecuador.
我们开始在厄瓜多尔等地寻找全新的床位。
Argentina, we know, has a ton of stuff, but we’ve never excavated there very much.
我们知道，阿根廷有很多东西，但我们从未在那里挖掘过太多东西。
Australia, we know, has a ton of stuff, and we haven’t excavated there very much.
我们知道，澳大利亚有很多东西，但我们在那里挖掘的并不多。
So there are lots of places, even now, to still go through.
所以即使是现在，仍然有很多地方需要经历。
This is a good moment to take a brief tangent and look at paleontology.
现在是切入正题并了解古生物学的好时机。
41:05 So how do we find these fossils?
那么我们如何找到这些化石呢？
What’s the magic?
有什么魔力？
What’s the science?
有什么科学依据？
The art?
艺术？
The same way, more or less, that people did in the 1750s, or whenever you first start getting them.
或多或少，人们在 1750 年代或刚开始接触它们时都会这样做。
41:14 For dinosaurs in particular, but this is true of the vast majority of stuff, there are essentially two ways of doing it.
特别是对于恐龙来说，但对于绝大多数东西来说都是如此，基本上有两种方法可以做到这一点。
The simple one is where you have quarries of particularly things like lithographic limestone, so the printing limestones, or stuff that’s very similar to that—sometimes it’s often volcanic—you get these super, super, super fine layers of sedimentation.
简单的一个是，你有采石场，特别是像平版石灰石这样的东西，所以印刷石灰石，或者与之非常相似的东西——有时通常是火山——你会得到这些超、超、超细的沉积层。
And that’s where you get these places of exceptional preservation.
这就是您获得这些保存完好的地方的地方。
Whenever you see, like, the feathers, or almost always, whenever you see feathered dinosaurs, it’s like, “Oh, we got the skin, we got the claws,” and the whole skeleton’s laid out.
每当你看到羽毛，或者几乎总是，每当你看到长有羽毛的恐龙时，都会感觉，“哦，我们有皮肤，我们有爪子”，然后整个骨架就摆好了。
41:59 So Archaeopteryx being the first bird that is an absolute classic example, it’s from these beds.
所以始祖鸟是第一个绝对经典的鸟类，它就来自这些床。
And there you find them by basically splitting limestone.
在那里你基本上可以通过劈开石灰石来找到它们。
We don’t usually dig for them.
我们通常不会挖掘它们。
It’s because there are quarry workers and people who are already doing this because the stone is useful, because there might be one decent fossil for every, you know, few hundred tons of rock you shift.
这是因为采石场工人和人们已经在这样做了，因为石头很有用，因为你知道，你移动的每几百吨岩石都可能有一块像样的化石。
In which case, you could get every paleontologist in the world there for a couple of years and you wouldn’t find very much.
在这种情况下，你可以让世界上所有的古生物学家都在那里呆上几年，但你不会发现太多东西。
You rely on the fact that there are hundreds of guys doing this constantly.
你依赖的事实是，有数百人不断地这样做。
And then sooner or later, they’ll find something, and then you’ve got it.
迟早，他们会找到一些东西，然后你就得到了。
That’s the super easy way.
这是超级简单的方法。
42:36 The only slightly more complicated way is you go to somewhere where geologically we know it’s the right age and it’s the right kind of rock, and ideally, fossils have been reported from there before.
唯一稍微复杂一点的方法是你去某个地方，从地质学上来说，我们知道它的年龄和岩石类型都是正确的，而且理想情况下，以前已经报道过那里的化石。
And again, you know, geologists mapped all the world’s geology years ago in quite a lot of detail.
再说一遍，你知道，地质学家多年前就详细绘制了世界各地的地质图。
There are gaps, there are places where we don’t have the details, but in general, we know.
虽然存在差距，有些地方我们不知道细节，但总的来说，我们知道。
And then you go there and then you walk around and you look.
然后你去那里，然后你四处走走，看看。
And that’s basically it.
基本上就是这样。
And you’re looking for something that’s sticking out of the rock.
你正在寻找从岩石中伸出的东西。
So you always get the…
所以你总是会得到...
43:07 there’s this constant, and I think, you know, borderline myth, of the idea that dinosaurs and mammoths and lots of other fossil things entered lots of indigenous cultures because it’s impossible that guys were wandering around, say, Dakota, and the Native Americans didn’t come across some dinosaur fossils.
我认为，恐龙、猛犸象和许多其他化石进入了许多土著文化，因为人们不可能在达科他州周围闲逛，而美洲原住民不可能没有发现一些恐龙化石。
That I’d agree with.
我同意。
It’s pretty much impossible they didn’t come across some dinosaur fossils.
他们几乎不可能没有发现一些恐龙化石。
Did they come across a whole skeleton laid out on the ground?
他们有没有发现地上有一具完整的骷髅？
No, because those don’t usually exist because even if they’re tougher, or it doesn’t matter if they’re tougher or weaker than the surrounding rock, dinosaur bones are, in some way, shape, or form, lithified.
不，因为这些通常不存在，因为即使它们比周围的岩石更坚韧，或者它们比周围的岩石更坚韧或更脆弱并不重要，但恐龙骨骼在某种程度上、形状或形式上都是石化的。
43:54 They turn to rock and they will absorb some of the minerals from whatever they’ve been buried in.
它们变成岩石，并会从埋藏的地方吸收一些矿物质。
And so, even in places like Mongolia and Northern China, where I’ve been, where actually the fossil bone is quite a lot tougher than the sandstone that it’s embedded in, you can find a bit of bone and pull it out, almost like rub it with your hands and the sand comes off and there’s your bone.
因此，即使在我去过的蒙古和中国北方等地方，实际上骨头化石比它嵌入的砂岩坚硬得多，你也可以找到一点骨头，然后把它拉出来，几乎就像用手揉搓它，沙子就会脱落，这就是你的骨头。
They will decay pretty quickly.
它们会很快腐烂。
Sandstorms, sand just etches stuff.
沙尘暴，沙子只会腐蚀东西。
The tiniest bit of moisture, particularly in winter, gets into the cracks.
最微小的水分，尤其是在冬天，都会进入裂缝。
Bones are incredibly porous.
骨头的多孔性令人难以置信。
That freezes, that expands, that cracks; bones just shatter.
冻结、膨胀、破裂；骨头就碎了。
And you find shattered bone on the surface everywhere.
你会发现表面到处都是碎骨。
What you rarely find is a decent bone on the surface, let alone a skeleton.
你很少能在表面找到像样的骨头，更不用说骷髅了。
So there has to be something that’s sticking out just a tiny bit.
所以一定有一些东西稍微突出。
So that you can see it, but it’s still buried.
这样你就可以看到它，但它仍然被埋着。
44:46 Right.
正确的。
And it happens.
它发生了。
The greatest one that I saw, or that I didn’t see, it happened with a friend of mine when we were in Northern China and he went, “Yeah, I can see a bit of a claw sticking out of a hill.” And it was, it was like this much.
我见过的，或者我没有见过的最伟大的一个，发生在我的一个朋友身上，当时我们在中国北方，他说：“是的，我可以看到一只爪子从山上伸出来。”就是这样。
You could see…
你可以看到……
Yeah.
是的。
…less than a centimeter coming out of a hillside.
......从山坡上出来不到一厘米。
45:06 And it’s like, so you know…
就像，所以你知道……
That’s the dream, right?
这就是梦想，对吗？
Dig, dig a little bit and there’s a little bit more, dig a little bit, there’s a little bit more, dig a little bit, there’s a little bit more, okay.
挖，挖一点，还有一点，挖一点，还有一点，挖一点，还有一点，好吧。
45:12 And then the system we were running there is some guys were searchers and some guys were diggers.
然后我们在那里运行的系统是一些人是搜索者，一些人是挖掘者。
So he and I were searchers, we’re told, “Okay, you guys have…” He found it.
所以他和我都是搜索者，我们被告知，“好吧，你们已经……”他找到了。
“You found something, go and look for something else.
“你找到了一些东西，去寻找别的东西吧。
We’ll dig it out.” And so we come back a couple of days later and check in on the digging team.
我们会把它挖出来的。”几天后我们回来查看挖掘团队的情况。
“So what is it then?” “Oh, it’s a complete skeleton.” And it was, it was a thing very, very close relative of Velociraptor, ended up naming it Linheraptor, so the raptor from Linher, which was the nearest town.
“那是什么？” “哦，这是一具完整的骷髅。”它是一种与 Velociraptor 非常非常近的亲戚，最终将其命名为 Linheraptor，即来自最近的城镇 Linher 的猛禽。
45:43 And it was, yeah, the legs were a little messed up because water had got to them and the end of the tail was missing and that was about it.
是的，腿有点乱，因为水浸到了腿上，而且尾巴末端不见了，仅此而已。
So like 90-plus percent complete skeleton and it had been found with, you know, five mil, a couple of sixteenths of an inch of bone sticking out of a hill.
就像百分之九十以上的完整骨架一样，它被发现有五百万，十六分之二英寸的骨头从山上伸出来。
And that’s what you want because every so often behind that is a whole skeleton.
这就是你想要的，因为背后往往是一个完整的骨架。
If you’re looking for skeletons on the surface, they’re going to be gone before you get to them.
如果你在地表寻找骷髅，在你到达之前它们就会消失。
And when it’s a near-complete skeleton, you did a show of Terrible Lizards on Stan.
当它是一个接近完整的骨架时，你在斯坦身上做了一场可怕的蜥蜴表演。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
The T-Rex fossil that sold for $31.8 million.
霸王龙化石售价为 3180 万美元。
Some of them.
其中一些。
So that’s a nice big adult T-Rex.
这是一只漂亮的大型成年霸王龙。
46:23 So, looking at a fossil like this…
所以，看着这样的化石……
Yeah.
是的。
…so for $31.8 million, what’s the excavation process for when you have a claw sticking out, like you were mentioning, and getting that whole thing out without damaging the bones?
......那么，对于 3180 万美元，当你有一只爪子伸出来时，就像你提到的那样，挖掘过程是怎样的，并且在不损坏骨头的情况下把整个东西挖出来？
46:30 What can you say about that process?
对于这个过程你有什么想说的？
So it depends where you are.
所以这取决于你在哪里。
46:41 It depends how many people you’ve got.
这取决于你有多少人。
It depends on your budget and it really depends on the rock.
这取决于您的预算，也取决于岩石。
So again, like going into China or Mongolia, where this little guy’s from, the bone tends to be relatively strong compared to the sandstone that it’s in.
再说一次，就像进入这个小家伙的故乡中国或蒙古一样，与它所在的砂岩相比，骨头往往相对坚固。
That also means that A, it’s fairly tough and resistant but it also means that it’s really easy to dig.
这也意味着 A，它相当坚韧且耐腐蚀，但也意味着它非常容易挖掘。
Like again, I’ve dug stuff by almost like pulling it with my hands or like getting my fingers in.
又像以前一样，我挖东西的方式几乎就像用手拉它或把手指伸进去一样。
Getting something like a chisel or a hammer, you can just cruise through this rock.
拿一把凿子或锤子之类的东西，你就可以在这块岩石上巡航。
But you have to be really careful not to touch the bone, I guess?
但你必须非常小心，不要碰骨头，我猜？
So it depends how strong it is.
所以就看它的强度了。
47:22 So again, some bone is incredibly strong, some isn’t because they’ve all fossilized differently.
再说一次，有些骨头非常坚固，有些则不然，因为它们的化石方式不同。
What we’re usually doing is applying glue to it, though.
不过，我们通常做的就是在上面涂上胶水。
There’s this wonderful stuff called Paraloid and it’s a special glue for fossils.
有一种奇妙的东西叫做Paraloid，它是一种特殊的化石胶水。
And I said bone’s super porous, so it’s really good at sucking up liquids.
我说骨头的多孔性很强，所以它非常擅长吸收液体。
Oh, so you’re basically filling it with glue so it makes it stronger?
哦，所以你基本上是用胶水填充它，这样它就会变得更坚固？
Yeah.
是的。
47:47 And Paraloid’s really great because you can dissolve it with acetone and it basically doesn’t react with anything.
Paraloid 真的很棒，因为你可以用丙酮溶解它，而且它基本上不会与任何东西发生反应。
So you can fill your fossil with glue, but then if you want to take all that glue out, you can pretty much just dissolve the glue back out again.
所以你可以用胶水填充你的化石，但是如果你想把所有的胶水都拿出来，你几乎可以把胶水再次溶解出来。
Very cool.
非常酷。
So yeah, what you would normally do is for something say in China, where the rock is relatively soft and the bone’s relatively tough and where we don’t have any, like, manpower and shipping problems, which is a real issue in other places, you basically map out where you think the skeleton’s going.
所以，是的，你通常会做的是在中国，那里的岩石相对较软，骨头相对坚硬，而且我们没有任何人力和运输问题，这在其他地方是一个真正的问题，你基本上可以绘制出你认为骨架的去向。
48:01 So in the same way that you were doing it, like, you know, if you can imagine like a cake or something and someone said, “Oh, put a toy dinosaur in there.” And you’ve got to find it without damaging it.
所以就像你做的那样，就像，你知道，如果你能想象一个蛋糕或其他东西，有人说，“哦，放一个玩具恐龙在那里。”而且你必须在不损坏它的情况下找到它。
Sort of like, well, you’d stick your finger in the cake and just kind of dig until you hit the edge of it and then you go in somewhere else and go in.
有点像，嗯，你把手指伸进蛋糕里，然后挖，直到你碰到它的边缘，然后你进入其他地方，然后进去。
And that’s what we’re doing.
这就是我们正在做的事情。
We’re just going in from all sides.
我们只是从四面八方进入。
48:46 And once you’ve hit three or four bones, you kind of know which way it’s going into the hillside, usually.
一旦你击中了三四根骨头，你通常就知道它会以哪个方向进入山坡。
Sometimes they’re very weird and mixed up.
有时它们非常奇怪且混乱。
And then you can just almost trace the outline of it.
然后你几乎可以勾勒出它的轮廓。
And then you’ll just dig all the way around that, which might involve taking the top off a mountain, depending on where you are.
然后你就可以一直挖下去，这可能涉及到把山顶从山顶上取下来，这取决于你在哪里。
In the desert, it tends to be a bit easier.
在沙漠中，这往往会容易一些。
But yeah, we’ve had stuff where, like the first three days, it’s just ten people with pickaxes just digging a hole to get down to the right level.
但是，是的，我们遇到过这样的情况，比如前三天，只有十个人用镐挖洞才能到达正确的高度。
But sometimes the excavation requires large equipment, right?
但有时挖掘需要大型设备，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
49:18 We’ve used jackhammers and stuff.
我们用过手提钻之类的东西。
We’ve used a backhoe and we’ve just literally driven it into the desert and just dug a big hole next to the fossil.
我们使用了反铲挖土机，将其开进沙漠，然后在化石旁边挖了一个大洞。
And then the classic thing of covering it in a plaster of Paris jacket.
然后经典的做法是用巴黎石膏夹克覆盖它。
Strips of burlap sacking, plaster of Paris and some water, wooden beams if you want to make something really big and really solid, and just basically wrap it all up and then take it out.
粗麻布条、熟石膏和一些水、木梁（如果你想制作非常大且非常坚固的东西），然后将其全部包裹起来，然后将其取出。
And that’s, again, that’s what they were doing 150, 200 years ago, that hasn’t changed.
这又是他们 150、200 年前所做的事情，至今没有改变。
Where it gets more complicated is if you’ve got really hard rock that’s very hard to get through, particularly if the bone is fragile.
事情变得更复杂的是，如果你有非常坚硬的岩石，就很难穿过，特别是如果骨头很脆弱的话。
Then it becomes difficult because if you want to get a jackhammer in, the vibrations mean you’re going to shatter your bones before you’ve even cut.
然后就变得很困难，因为如果你想用手提钻进去，振动意味着你在切割之前就会粉碎你的骨头。
50:08 …through the rock.
……穿过岩石。
So then you might be down to doing it manually.
那么你可能只能手动完成。
And manual is like-
手册就像-
Yep.
是的。
50:13 Hand chipping it out.
用手把它削掉。
Yeah.
是的。
The other way you end up with that is like the classic Jurassic Park thing, like the, was it the second scene?
你最终得到的另一种方式就像经典的侏罗纪公园一样，就像，这是第二个场景吗？
And they’re digging in the desert and there’s the whole skeleton laid out and five or six guys all digging around it and exposing it.
他们在沙漠里挖掘，整个骨架都摆好了，五六个人在它周围挖掘并暴露它。
And that’s actually quite common in the States.
这实际上在美国很常见。
And the reason is huge amounts of those excavations are being done on government land, their national parks or whatever, or protected land.
原因是大量挖掘工作是在政府土地、国家公园或其他地方或受保护的土地上进行的。
And very often the rules are you’re not allowed wheeled vehicles, full stop, at all, to protect the environment.
通常，为了保护环境，规则是不允许轮式车辆完全停车。
You can walk in and walk out, but you can’t drive.
你可以走进去，也可以走出去，但你不能开车。
50:55 And it’s like, well, when we’re in the desert in Mongolia or in China, and we’re allowed to do this, literally, yeah, my boss drove into town, hired a guy with a JCB.
就像，好吧，当我们在蒙古或中国的沙漠中时，我们被允许这样做，从字面上看，是的，我的老板开车进城，雇了一个有 JCB 的人。
He drove out, picked it up with a bucket and drove it back into town and put it on the back of a flatbed and we drove it to Beijing.
他开车出去，用桶把它捡起来，然后把它开回城里，放在平板车的后面，我们把它开到北京。
If you’re out in a protected area and you can’t, you’ve got two choices.
如果您在保护区内却无法前往，您有两种选择。
You can take it out by hand, but that means it’s got to be light enough that half a dozen people can lift it.
你可以用手把它拿出来，但这意味着它必须足够轻，以便六个人可以抬起它。
51:24 Which if it’s a block of stone the size of this desk, you know, a couple of meters by a couple of meters by a meter high, is basically impossible.
如果它是一块像这张桌子那么大的石头，你知道，几米乘几米乘一米高，那基本上是不可能的。
So that means you’ve either got to carve chunks off, so take the head off, take the arm off and whatever, and you can get it out that way, but it’s not ideal.
所以这意味着你要么必须切掉大块，所以把头拿下来，把手臂拿下来等等，你可以用这种方式把它拿出来，但这并不理想。
There’s always the risk of breaking, you’re losing some information, and if you want to make a really spectacular display, you don’t want to join through every big bit of bone.
总是存在断裂的风险，你会丢失一些信息，如果你想制作一个真正壮观的显示，你不想加入每一块大骨头。
You want to show the public one piece.
你想向公众展示一件作品。
So the alternative is to get rid of every bit of rock you possibly can to make it light enough to helicopter it out.
因此，另一种选择是尽可能地清除每一块岩石，使其足够轻，以便用直升机将其运出。
52:02 And so normally…
所以通常...
So in China, if we hit that bit of bone going in, we’re just going in around the sides until we’ve hit it.
所以在中国，如果我们击中那块骨头，我们就会从侧面进入，直到击中为止。
Take the top off, take the bottom off and just take it so the skeleton is completely encased in rock and it’s as safe and secure as it can be.
把顶部取下来，把底部取下来，然后把它取下来，这样骨架就完全包裹在岩石里了，而且尽可能安全可靠。
And then we’ll do the preparation work back at the lab.
然后我们将回到实验室进行准备工作。
That’s heavy though.
但这很重。
But-
但是——
That’s real heavy.
那真的很重。
…if you’re going to have to lift it with a helicopter and they’ve got a weight limit of only a couple of tons, or if it’s not, then you need to pay twice as much for a much more expensive helicopter, then you take off every gram of rock that you think you can- …to get the weight down so you can ship it.
......如果你必须用直升机来举起它，而他们的重量限制只有几吨，或者如果不是，那么你需要支付两倍的费用购买更昂贵的直升机，然后你卸下你认为可以的每一克岩石 - ......以减轻重量，以便你可以运送它。
52:22 So it varies massively.
所以它的变化很大。
Something the size of Stan, that’s months of work.
像斯坦那么大的东西，需要几个月的时间才能完成。
You’re probably doing that across three or four years with a team of half a dozen people.
你可能要和一个六人的团队一起花费三四年的时间来完成这项工作。
So can we just talk through…
那么我们可以谈谈吗……
52:49 Because just using Stan as a case study, Stan was first discovered in the spring of 1987 by amateur paleontologist, Stan- …Sekanson in Hell Creek Formation near Buffalo, South Dakota.
因为仅使用 Stan 作为案例研究，Stan 是在 1987 年春天由业余古生物学家 Stan-…Sekanson 在南达科他州布法罗附近的地狱溪地层中首次发现的。
Yeah.
是的。
53:03 But it was the Larson brothers from the Black Hills Institute who dug it up.
但挖掘它的是布莱克山研究所的拉尔森兄弟。
And so they’re a commercial outfit, so they dig stuff up to sell it.
所以他们是一家商业机构，所以他们会挖掘东西来出售。
But they also make casts and sell them.
但他们也制作模型并出售。
Oh, I brought my other…
哦，我带了我的另一个……
I do have a cast, a cast of one of Stan’s teeth.
我确实有一个模型，斯坦的一颗牙齿的模型。
So like you can buy casts of Stan’s teeth.
就像你可以购买斯坦的牙齿模型一样。
You could buy casts of the head, you could buy the whole skeleton.
你可以购买头部模型，也可以购买整个骨架。
So it’s a famous skeleton.
所以这是一个著名的骷髅。
You see Stan in a whole bunch of different places.
你可以在很多不同的地方看到斯坦。
53:26 There’s a Stan just up the road from here at Oxford.
牛津就在这条路上有一个斯坦。
Oxford’s got a cast of Stan.
牛津有斯坦的演员阵容。
Oh.
哦。
I was just at Lyme Regis, the famous fossil locality in the south of the UK, a couple weeks ago.
几周前，我刚刚来到英国南部著名的化石产地莱姆里吉斯。
53:34 One of the fossil stores has a skull of Stan in the window.
其中一家化石商店的橱窗里有一个斯坦的头骨。
Stan, Stan turns up again and again and again.
斯坦，斯坦一次又一次地出现。
So the process as written here involved removing the overlying rock— …using heavy equipment like a Bobcat.
因此，这里所写的过程涉及去除上面的岩石——……使用像山猫这样的重型设备。
Yeah.
是的。
53:50 So we call that the overburden, the extra stuff that’s all the rock that’s sitting above the layer with our fossil in.
所以我们称之为覆盖层，即位于含有化石的地层上方的所有岩石的额外物质。
And when you’re lucky, that’s a foot of sandstone and you shovel it out in an hour.
如果幸运的话，那是一英尺厚的砂岩，你可以在一小时内将其铲出来。
And I’ve seen guys in South America.
我见过南美洲的人。
There was a team in Argentina, I think it was my old boss, Ollie Rowhurst, showed me this.
阿根廷有一支球队，我想是我的老老板奥利·罗赫斯特（Ollie Rowhurst）向我展示了这一点。
And they took like 20, 30 feet off the top of a hill to get down to this fossil, you know, something, you know, it was probably half an acre in size, 20, 30 feet of rock.
他们从山顶走了大约 20、30 英尺才能到达这个化石，你知道，有什么东西，你知道，它可能有半英亩大小，20、30 英尺的岩石。
I mean, this is incredible.
我的意思是，这太不可思议了。
54:23 I wonder if you could speak to some of these other components: carefully extracting each fossil bone by hand with picks and brushes, plotting and diagramming the bones— …using a grid system at the dig site, wrapping the bones in burlap and plaster for safe transport to the BHI lab.
我想知道您是否可以谈谈其中的一些其他组成部分：用镐和刷子手工小心地提取每块化石骨头，绘制和绘制骨头图——……在挖掘现场使用网格系统，用粗麻布和石膏包裹骨头，以便安全运输到 BHI 实验室。
Some of the stuff you’ve spoken to.
一些你曾经说过的东西。
What’s with the diagramming?
图表有什么用？
What’s with the plotting and the diagramming?
绘图和图表有什么用？
So yeah.
所以是的。
54:42 So you may well have seen something like this for archeology shows or something like that.
所以你很可能在考古展览或类似的东西中看到过类似的东西。
Nowadays, again, tech’s getting better.
如今，技术再次变得更好。
People are using drones and stuff for this, or taking hundreds of photos and then building photogrammetry models.
人们为此使用无人机和其他东西，或者拍摄数百张照片，然后构建摄影测量模型。
You just got a 3D model in the computer.
您刚刚在计算机中获得了 3D 模型。
Or just kind of modeling what we’re looking at here.
或者只是对我们在这里看到的进行建模。
Yeah.
是的。
55:01 But, but where you found everything.
但是，但是你在哪里找到了一切。
So it goes back to that stuff we were saying about the process of fossilization or the process of what’s happened to that animal from death to discovery.
所以这又回到了我们所说的关于化石化过程或动物从死亡到发现的过程。
It’s like, a classic thing is bones being in a line.
就像，一个经典的事情就是骨头排成一行。
So you can imagine if, you know, bones are lots of weird shapes, but mostly, or at least certainly lots of bones, ribs, arms, and legs, things like this, they’re quite long bones.
所以你可以想象，如果骨头有很多奇怪的形状，但大多数，或者至少肯定有很多骨头，肋骨，手臂和腿，像这样的东西，它们是相当长的骨头。
So if they’re in a current, they will tend to spin in the axis so that they are facing the current.
因此，如果它们处于水流中，它们会倾向于沿轴旋转，从而面向水流。
So if you’re finding all the bones are in a line, that probably tells you that this thing has had quite a lot of water washing over it.
所以如果你发现所有的骨头都排成一条线，这可能告诉你这东西已经被大量的水冲刷过。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
55:40 Got it.
知道了。
You’re then probably going to be missing most of the small bones because the big heavy bones won’t be shifted by that current, but maybe the small ones will.
然后你可能会丢失大部分小骨头，因为大而重的骨头不会被电流移动，但小骨头可能会移动。
Oh, so you actually model where the bones, where you’re likely to find the bones, the big bones, the small bones—
哦，所以你实际上模拟了骨头的位置，你可能在哪里找到骨头，大骨头，小骨头 -
So it might, it might tell you where to go and dig further down the hill, quite literally, but it can also just tell you, okay, this thing, there’s no way this thing died here.
所以它可能会告诉你去哪里，从山上进一步挖掘，从字面上看，但它也可以告诉你，好吧，这东西，这东西不可能死在这里。
55:52 It absolutely got moved, so we need to factor that in when we’re trying to interpret it.
它绝对被移动了，所以当我们试图解释它时，我们需要考虑到这一点。
Or we’ve got this one weird bone and we can’t work out what on earth it is.
或者我们有一根奇怪的骨头，但我们无法弄清楚它到底是什么。
Well, maybe it’s from something else because if we know a whole bunch of stuff washed together, maybe that’s a random bone from a different animal.
好吧，也许它来自其他东西，因为如果我们知道一大堆东西洗在一起，也许那是来自不同动物的随机骨头。
Yeah.
是的。
56:19 Maybe that was eaten, or there might be a different story if it was washed like you…
也许是被吃掉了，或者如果像你一样洗了，可能会有不同的故事……
Any, any of that kind of thing.
任何，任何这样的事情。
56:23 So that’s where you want to have as much information as possible.
所以这就是您想要获得尽可能多的信息的地方。
It says here, “Once at the lab, the bones underwent more than 30,000 hours of cleaning, preservation, restoration, and documentation.” And Stan’s skeleton is notable for its high degree of completeness, about 70% by bulk, 63% by bone count, and the exceptional preservation of its skull, which has become a scientific standard for the species.
这里说，“骨头进入实验室后，经过了 30,000 多个小时的清洁、保存、修复和记录。”斯坦的骨骼以其高度完整而著称，体积约占 70%，骨量约占 63%，而且头骨保存完好，已成为该物种的科学标准。
Yeah.
是的。
56:49 So there’s this unbelievably beautiful skeleton, Borealopelta.
这就是这个令人难以置信的美丽骨骼，Borealopelta。
This is a helicopter lift.
这是直升机升降机。
Absolutely…
绝对……
It’s awesome.
太棒了。
…
……
56:58 phenomenal preservation from-
惊人的保存 -
What?
什么？
…
……
57:00 from Northern Alberta.
来自艾伯塔省北部。
What is this thing?
这是什么东西？
Its full name is Borealopelta markmitchelli, and it’s called markmitchelli, named after Mark Mitchell, the preparator, who basically spent, I think Mark spent the thick end of two years on this.
它的全名是Borealopelta markmitchelli，就叫markmitchelli，以准备者Mark Mitchell的名字命名，他基本上花了，我想Mark在这上面花了两年的时间。
57:02 This was his job.
这是他的工作。
And he did other stuff as well.
他还做了其他事情。
He’s doing some other prep, he’s doing some fieldwork.
他正在做一些其他准备工作，他正在做一些实地考察。
But Mark basically went in every day, nine to five, cleaning the rock because the rock was hard and the bone was soft, and it’s extraordinarily well-preserved.
但马克基本上每天都进去，朝九晚五，清理岩石，因为岩石坚硬，骨头柔软，而且保存得异常完好。
Borealopelta is a genus of plant-eating armored dinosaur.
Borealopelta 是食草性装甲恐龙的一个属。
57:30 Sure as hell looks armored.
当然，看起来就像是全副武装。
This is an incredibly preserved specimen.
这是一个保存得令人难以置信的标本。
From the early Cretaceous period, about 112 million years ago, found in what is now Alberta, Canada.
距今约1.12亿年前的白垩纪早期，发现于现在的加拿大艾伯塔省。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Look at this thing.
看看这个东西。
So Borealopelta is one of the ones where we’ve even got some of the evidence of patterning, and it suggests that it’s darker on top and lighter underneath.
因此，Borealopelta 是我们甚至获得了一些图案证据的物种之一，这表明它的顶部颜色较深，底部颜色较浅。
57:47 So this illustration, I think that’s, yeah, that’s Julius Chattoni did that.
所以这个插图，我认为是的，那是朱利叶斯·查托尼（Julius Chattoni）所做的。
He’s a Canadian paleo artist, and so that color pattern is roughly accurate.
他是一位加拿大古艺术家，因此颜色图案大致准确。
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
58:03 So this is true to color.
所以这是真实的颜色。
And so we can figure out the colors that…
所以我们可以找出……的颜色。
Well, give, give or take some very large uncertainties-
好吧，给予、给予或接受一些非常大的不确定性——
Look at this thing.
看看这个东西。
…
……
58:11 it’s gonna be something like this.
会是这样的。
That’s so awesome.
太棒了。
So these guys are…
所以这些人是……
That’s hard to eat, that thing.
那个东西，很难吃。
…nearly armored pine cones.
...近乎装甲的松果。
58:17 Yeah, though it’s very much the adult condition.
是的，尽管这很大程度上是成年人的情况。
The juveniles seem to be far less, if not unarmored.
这些少年即使不是没有盔甲，也似乎要少得多。
We’re back to the juveniles thing.
我们又回到了青少年的话题。
Right.
正确的。
58:26 So, right, so…
所以，对了，所以……
So, but that’s why we…
所以，但这就是为什么我们……
That armor is absolutely going to be effective as anti-predator, but it’s probably evolved primarily for combat and display between members of the species because otherwise if they stopped you being eaten, the babies would have it.
这种盔甲绝对可以有效地对抗掠食者，但它可能主要是为了物种成员之间的战斗和展示而进化的，因为否则，如果他们阻止你被吃掉，婴儿就会拥有它。
This fossil is considered one of the best-preserved dinosaur specimens ever found, with armor, skin, keratin sheaths, and even stomach contents all intact.
这块化石被认为是迄今为止发现的保存最完好的恐龙标本之一，盔甲、皮肤、角蛋白鞘，甚至胃内容物都完好无损。
58:42 Incredible.
极好的。
And so for that, he really did the work.
为此，他确实做了这项工作。
And also found miles and miles and miles out to sea, or the paleo sea.
还发现了数英里外的大海，或古海。
58:55 So this is from a site which normally gives us big marine reptiles.
这是来自一个通常为我们提供大型海洋爬行动物的网站。
So predatory plesiosaurs and ichthyosaurs and then mosasaurs and stuff like that.
所以有掠食性的蛇颈龙和鱼龙，然后还有沧龙之类的东西。
And then it turned up an ankylosaur, well, nodosaur in this case.
然后它出现了甲龙，嗯，在这个例子中是结节龙。
Yeah.
是的。
59:14 Wow.
哇。
This is incredible.
这太不可思议了。
So, okay.
那么，好吧。
Let’s complete the journey of Stan to the museum to, like, you get, you get to the process of cleaning everything, stitching it all together.
让我们完成斯坦到博物馆的旅程，就像，你得到，你得到清洁所有东西，将它们缝合在一起的过程。
Yeah, like Mark suggested, this can be, even with an animal that size, Borealopelta is, you know, four or five meters long.
是的，就像马克建议的那样，即使是这么大的动物，北方佩尔塔也有四五米长。
59:25 We’ve only gone and got the front two-thirds of it.
我们只拿到了前面的三分之二。
This can be needle-level stuff.
这可能是针级的东西。
That’s how you get to the 30,000 hours.
这就是您达到 30,000 小时的方法。
Yeah, exactly that, if it’s that quality and you want to get everything open.
是的，正是如此，如果它是那种质量并且你想把一切都开放的话。
59:39 And then something like Stan, actually a really complicated skull.
然后是像斯坦这样的东西，实际上是一个非常复杂的头骨。
The skull’s full of lots of little bones.
头骨里充满了很多小骨头。
The bones are really fragile.
骨头真的很脆弱。
So that just adds to the time.
所以这只会增加时间。
I mean, at least with the ankylosaurids, the skull is just this giant solid block of bone, which makes life a little bit easier.
我的意思是，至少对于甲龙来说，头骨只是一块巨大的固体骨头，这让生活变得更容易一些。
So yeah, they’re going to put those hours in, and that’s really going to help them sell the animal, which is ultimately what happened.
所以，是的，他们会投入这些时间，这确实会帮助他们出售动物，这就是最终发生的事情。
I mean, Stan sat in the Black Hills Institute for decades.
我的意思是，斯坦在布莱克山研究所呆了几十年。
I mean, ’87, and they sold it in like 2020, so they had it for 30 years sitting in their kind of little museum.
我的意思是，87 年，他们在 2020 年左右卖掉了它，所以他们在他们的小博物馆里放了 30 年。
And then my understanding was basically the brothers broke the company up, and that’s why they sold it.
然后我的理解基本上是兄弟们解散了公司，这就是他们卖掉它的原因。
Yeah.
是的。
1:00:23 But it was still incredibly surprising that it was sold for 31 million.
但最终以3100万的价格成交，还是让人感到无比惊讶。
Yeah, I mean, far more than I think anyone thought it was going to.
是的，我的意思是，远远超出我的想象。
1:00:26 I mean, I liken…
我的意思是，我喜欢...
Well, you know, if you’re not buying, like, teeth or an ammonite in some small fossil shop, you know, when you’re talking about things like whole dinosaurs and whole tyrannosaurs, I think it’s a bit like the art market, in that it’s worth what people will pay for it.
好吧，你知道，如果你不是在某个小化石店里购买牙齿或菊石，你知道，当你谈论整个恐龙和整个霸王龙之类的东西时，我认为这有点像艺术市场，因为人们愿意为此付出代价。
And so, you know-
所以，你知道——
1:00:47 …plenty of T-rexes had sold for a few million dollars, and therefore everyone thought it might be five.
……很多霸王龙都卖了几百万美元，因此每个人都认为可能是五只。
You know, ten would be an absurd sum of money.
你知道，十块钱是一笔荒唐的钱。
And then yeah, it went for 30, and it’s like, okay, well…
然后是的，它花了 30，就像，好吧，好吧......
two.
二。
I was going to say someone wanted it that bad, but clearly not two people wanted it that bad, because if only one guy is prepared to bid 30, then it goes for, you know, a million more than the next highest bidder.
我想说有人那么想要它，但显然不是两个人那么想要它，因为如果只有一个人准备出价 30，那么它就会比下一个出价最高的人多出 100 万。
But presumably, two people, if not three, bid it to get that high.
但据推测，有两个人（如果不是三个）出价才能达到这么高的价格。
Yeah, it was anonymous at the time, but now it’s Abu Dhabi’s Department of- …Culture and Tourism came out that they were the ones.
是的，当时是匿名的，但现在是阿布扎比的文化和旅游部发现他们就是这样的人。
I know they’ve got it.
我知道他们已经做到了。
And that record has been since beaten apparently by, uh-
这个记录显然已经被打破了，呃-
By Apex, the Stegosaurus, which I still haven’t seen, though a friend of mine has sent me some photos of this thing.
剑龙，我还没见过，尽管我的一个朋友给我发了一些它的照片。
Is it impressive to you, this thing?
这件事让你印象深刻吗？
No, not especially.
不，不是特别。
1:01:37 That’s why I can’t imagine that it sold for that much.
这就是为什么我无法想象它能卖这么多钱。
It’s a really nice Stegosaurus.
这是一只非常漂亮的剑龙。
It’s pretty big, Stegosaurus.
它相当大，剑龙。
Well preserved.
保存完好。
I’ve seen other very good Stegosauruses, and I don’t understand why that’s worth that much more than something like Stan.
我见过其他非常好的剑龙，但我不明白为什么它比像斯坦这样的东西更值钱。
1:01:47 But it shows you the market.
但它向你展示了市场。
So, we’re here in London.
所以，我们在伦敦。
There’s a Stegosaurus called Sophie in the Natural History Museum in London.
伦敦自然历史博物馆里有一只名叫索菲的剑龙。
Sophie is a young animal, so she’s not very big.
苏菲是一只小动物，所以她不是很大。
I mean, it’s a sizable specimen.
我的意思是，这是一个相当大的样本。
I’d say five-ish, six meters, off the top of my head, total length.
我想说五米左右，六米，从我的头顶算起，总长度。
But Sophie’s truly exceptional.
但苏菲确实很出色。
Like, there’s a couple of plates missing, a handful of ribs, a couple of bones in the tail.
比如，少了几块盘子，几根肋骨，尾巴上有几块骨头。
I think a couple of toe bones.
我认为有几个脚趾骨。
This is, by far, the most complete Stegosaurus out there.
这是迄今为止最完整的剑龙。
Wow.
哇。
That sold for, I think, 250,000 pounds, so maybe $400,000, about a decade ago.
我想，大约十年前，它的售价为 250,000 英镑，即 400,000 美元。
1:02:25 So this has now gone up, like, 100-fold for an animal which is quite a bit bigger but is way less complete.
所以对于一种体型更大但不那么完整的动物来说，这个数字现在已经增加了 100 倍。
So for me, those two things kind of balance out because size is always impressive, and that’s what the public likes, but also a complete one is better than a half a one or two-thirds a one.
所以对我来说，这两件事是平衡的，因为尺寸总是令人印象深刻，这就是公众喜欢的，但完整的一个也比一个的半个或三分之二要好。
So how has the price gone up 100 or from, yeah, 400,000 to 40,000,000 in 10 years for roughly the same thing?
那么，大约同样的东西，价格是如何在 10 年内上涨 100 或从 400,000 到 40,000,000 的呢？
A T-rex is a little bit more epic than-
霸王龙比-更史诗般一点点
Well that’s the thing-
嗯，就是这样——
…a Stegosaurus.
……剑龙。
T-rex has a massive premium on it.
霸王龙有巨大的溢价。
1:03:06 Because it’s, yeah, a Stegosaurus is one of those top-tier, you know, it’s…
因为它是，是的，剑龙是顶级龙之一，你知道，它是……
You can virtually do the list.
您几乎可以列出清单。
You know, T-rex, Triceratops, Diplodocus, Brontosaurus, Stegosaurus.
你知道，霸王龙、三角龙、梁龙、雷龙、剑龙。
It’s in that first six or seven…
就在前六七个……
Okay, these days, Velociraptor, thanks to Jurassic Park.
好吧，这些天，迅猛龙，感谢侏罗纪公园。
1:03:27 But it’s…
但这是……
Like, right, but you know, that’s the list of like seven or eight things that any random human who doesn’t care about dinosaurs and doesn’t know anything about dinosaurs, but they’ve probably heard of them.
就像，对，但你知道，这是一个大约七八件事的清单，任何不关心恐龙并且对恐龙一无所知的随机人，但他们可能听说过它们。
You know, Stegosaurus is in that list and would have an idea of what it looked like.
你知道，剑龙就在这个名单中，并且知道它的样子。
Oh yeah, it’s got like the big stuff stuck along the back.
哦，是的，它就像是大东西卡在后面。
You know, you’d get that answer from almost any, you know, 99% of people on the street.
你知道，你几乎可以从街上 99% 的人那里得到这个答案。
But yeah, it’s not a T-rex.
但是，是的，它不是霸王龙。
So how it’s worth, yeah, 50% more and it’s not even a particularly complete skeleton, Apex, to my understanding, like I don’t get it.
那么它的价值如何，是的，多了 50%，而且据我所知，它甚至不是一个特别完整的骨架，Apex，就像我不明白一样。
Actually, since we’re on the topic of money, if I gave you, let’s say, $10,000,000,000, how would you spend it?
其实，既然说到钱，如果我给你，比方说，100亿美元，你会怎么花呢？
1:04:05 I force you to spend it on dinosaur-related things.
我强迫你把它花在与恐龙有关的东西上。
How would you spend it?
你会怎么花呢？
I mean, I’d probably drop half a billion or so on the best museum you’d ever seen and then-
我的意思是，我可能会在你见过的最好的博物馆上投入 5 亿美元左右，然后——
So, put together a museum.
所以，建一个博物馆。
1:04:22 You’re like one of the great communicators- …one of the great scientists, and so like you would want to push forward the whole field.
你就像一位伟大的沟通者——……一位伟大的科学家，所以你想推动整个领域的发展。
And one of the ways to do that is a great museum, actually.
实际上，实现这一目标的方法之一就是建造一座伟大的博物馆。
Yeah, but you wanted…
是的，但你想要……
1:04:33 So, it’s twofold because there’s the communication and the education part of it, which is something I’m massive on, and I think research is pointless if you don’t communicate it at some level.
所以，它是双重的，因为其中有沟通和教育部分，这是我非常重视的事情，我认为如果你不在某种程度上进行沟通，研究就没有意义。
I’m not saying everyone needs to communicate everything.
我并不是说每个人都需要沟通一切。
If you’re working on the nuances of a calculation of the volume of a black hole or something, yeah, it probably doesn’t need a press release or a new museum exhibition.
如果你正在研究黑洞体积计算的细微差别或其他什么，是的，它可能不需要新闻稿或新的博物馆展览。
But fundamentally, we should be talking about our work.
但从根本上来说，我们应该谈论我们的工作。
But also, you’ve got to store this stuff.
而且，你还必须存储这些东西。
Many fossils are fragile.
许多化石都很脆弱。
They need to be kept not necessarily in climate control, but at least you want a basement that is much more even than, you know, just sticking it in a box in a warehouse somewhere.
它们不一定需要在气候控制下保存，但至少你想要一个比你知道的，只是把它放在仓库某个地方的盒子里要平坦得多的地下室。
1:05:15 So you’ve got to be able to store this stuff to be able to study it, or it’s kind of pointless.
所以你必须能够存储这些东西才能研究它，否则就没有意义。
But with the rest of that money, I’d buy a ton of land, like the quarries that gave us Archaeopteryx in Bavaria and have given us a ton of other stuff.
但用剩下的钱，我会购买大量土地，比如巴伐利亚的采石场，它们为我们提供了始祖鸟，并为我们提供了大量其他东西。
I’ve worked on a load of pterosaurs, the flying reptiles from there.
我研究过很多翼龙，一种会飞的爬行动物。
These are mostly commercially run or just straight-up privately owned and not being commercially run.
这些大多是商业运营的，或者只是直接私有的，而不是商业运营的。
Someone’s just inherited it, and they’re just sitting on this stuff.
有人刚刚继承了它，他们只是坐拥这些东西。
So if somebody’s building stuff on land, does that threaten the possibility of discovering something on it?
那么，如果有人在陆地上建造东西，这是否会威胁到在陆地上发现东西的可能性？
It’s more that they’re not necessarily exploiting it with fossils in mind.
更重要的是，他们在开发它时并不一定考虑到化石。
Presumably, you have to balance the search efforts and the land.
想必，你必须平衡搜索工作和土地。
Yeah, but you know, one billion on its own would go a very, very long way, almost infinitely, if you’re just creaming off the interest and then funding excavations and supporting scientists who are already embedded in other museums or other universities or other research institutes.
是的，但是你知道，如果你只是最大限度地发挥兴趣，然后资助挖掘工作并支持已经嵌入其他博物馆、其他大学或其他研究机构的科学家，那么 10 亿美元本身就可以走很长很长的路，几乎是无限的。
So the rest is for buying up land so that those people can do their work.
所以剩下的就是购买土地，以便这些人能够工作。
Yeah, you look at somewhere like, you know, Brazil, and I can never remember the name of it, but there’s, again, one of these zones of exceptional preservation where superlative pterosaurs, fish…
是的，你看看像巴西这样的地方，我永远记不起它的名字，但这里又是一个特殊的保存区域之一，那里有最高级的翼龙、鱼类……
1:06:18 We’ve had a handful of dinosaurs and a whole bunch of other stuff has come out, and it’s just a giant commercial mining operation.
我们已经发现了一些恐龙，还出现了一大堆其他东西，这只是一个巨大的商业采矿作业。
And yeah, when they hit a fossil, when they think they’re close to it, they stop and pull it out, and they’ll send it to a museum, and more often they’ll sell it to a museum, and museums only have so much money.
是的，当他们碰到一块化石时，当他们认为自己已经接近它时，他们就会停下来，把它拉出来，然后把它送到博物馆，更常见的是，他们会把它卖给博物馆，而博物馆只有这么多钱。
Whereas what if I owned that quarry and then I made sure everyone who worked there was trained and got a bonus every time they found anything, and then I just handed everything they dug up straight into a museum?
但如果我拥有那个采石场，然后我确保在那里工作的每个人都接受过培训，并且每次发现任何东西都会得到奖金，然后我将他们挖出的所有东西直接交给博物馆呢？
So there would be some element of crowd-sourced paleontology or?
那么会有一些众包古生物学的元素吗？
Yeah, but it’s more that no researcher ever needs to spend money to access that.
是的，但更重要的是，没有研究人员需要花钱来访问它。
1:07:01 No museum needs to go and find a new donor to give them half a million to go and buy this one specimen, knowing that it might still go to some Silicon Valley billionaire’s foyer or whatever.
任何博物馆都不需要去寻找新的捐赠者，给他们 50 万美元去购买这个标本，因为他们知道它可能仍然会被送到硅谷亿万富翁的门厅或其他地方。
It’s like, “Well, I own the land, so it’s mine, so problem solved.” That’s what’s in my head.
就像，“好吧，我拥有这块土地，所以它是我的，所以问题解决了。”这就是我的想法。
It just would be wonderful to scale up the effort to where we can map out the whole, sort of, story of this time, because it’s such a fascinating time in the history of Earth.
如果我们能加大努力，绘制出这个时代的整个故事，那就太好了，因为这是地球历史上一个如此迷人的时代。
I’ve jokingly written a couple of times about how all science funding in the world should go to paleontology.
我曾多次开玩笑地写过关于世界上所有科学资金应该如何投入古生物学的文章。
1:07:45 And the idea being that, like, yeah, if you want to investigate black holes or neutrinos or chemical crystallography or panda genetics or whatever it is, you can do that any time you want.
这个想法是，是的，如果你想研究黑洞或中微子或化学晶体学或熊猫遗传学或其他任何东西，你可以随时进行。
That’s not going to change a million years from now as it will from tomorrow.
从现在起一百万年后，这一点不会像明天一样改变。
But fossils are in places that erode, and if we don’t dig them up, they’re gone.
但化石存在于被侵蚀的地方，如果我们不把它们挖出来，它们就会消失。
So we should dig all the fossils up now, and then we’ve got forever to study them.
所以我们现在就应该把所有的化石挖出来，然后我们就可以永远研究它们。
But if we don’t dig them up now, who knows, you know, maybe something twice the size of T-Rex sat on a hillside for six months, and then the wind got to it and it’s gone, and that was the only one that ever preserved.
但如果我们现在不把它们挖出来，谁知道，你知道，也许有一个两倍于霸王龙大小的东西在山坡上呆了六个月，然后风吹到它，它就消失了，这是唯一保存下来的东西。
Well, we’ll never know now.
好吧，我们现在永远不会知道。
To be clear, this is a joke.
需要明确的是，这是一个笑话。
1:08:38 I’m not suggesting we should stop doing cancer research and physics and other things, but it is – we’re in a fundamentally different field where our science is literally disappearing.
我并不是建议我们应该停止进行癌症研究、物理学和其他事情，但事实是——我们处于一个根本不同的领域，我们的科学正在消失。
Yeah.
是的。
1:08:48 I mean, I know it’s a joke, but there’s some truth to it.
我的意思是，我知道这是一个笑话，但其中有一些道理。
And on the flip side, one of the hopes is that technology will somehow ease the search and discovery process, but as you said, so far most of it…
另一方面，希望之一是技术能够以某种方式简化搜索和发现过程，但正如你所说，到目前为止大部分......
It hasn’t.
事实并非如此。
1:09:03 Yeah, I mean…
是的，我的意思是……
So far.
到目前为止。
Yeah.
是的。
1:09:04 You know, Jurassic Park ’93, you’ve got that little scene where they’ve got the, like, thumper or something they call it, and it hits the ground, and seismic, and then they go, “Look, look!
你知道，93 年的《侏罗纪公园》中，有一个小场景，他们有类似重击器或他们所说的东西，它击中地面，产生地震，然后他们说，“看，看！
Here’s the whole skeleton.” Yeah, they tried it.
这是整个骨架。”是的，他们尝试过。
It doesn’t really work.
这确实不起作用。
We’ve tried looking for stuff with drones.
我们尝试过用无人机寻找东西。
That helps you get into some inaccessible areas, but until the resolution is probably better, you’ve still got that problem of, like, looking, you know, with human eyes which are binocular, and being able to, you know, just tilt your head completely changes how you see something in a way that flying over just won’t.
这可以帮助你进入一些难以进入的区域，但在分辨率可能更好之前，你仍然会遇到这样的问题，比如，用双眼看，你知道，并且能够，你知道，只需倾斜你的头就可以完全改变你看待事物的方式，而飞越则不会。
I know they’ve tried looking…
我知道他们已经尝试过寻找……
1:09:45 So because the bones are porous, they tend to suck things up, so actually dinosaur bones can be really radioactive if they’re in areas where there are things like uranium.
因为骨头是多孔的，所以它们往往会吸收东西，所以实际上，如果恐龙骨头位于有铀等物质的区域，它们可能真的具有放射性。
So yeah, there are drawers which have lead boxes around them and stuff like this for dinosaur bones, or just signs saying, “Do not handle.” They’re very low-level radioactive.
所以，是的，有些抽屉周围有铅盒和类似恐龙骨头的东西，或者只是写着“请勿处理”的标志。它们的放射性非常低。
Like, you’d have to stick it in your pocket for six months to run any real risk.
就像，你必须把它放在口袋里六个月才能冒真正的风险。
But they’re radioactive, much more so than the background.
但它们具有放射性，比背景的放射性要强得多。
So can we do that?
那么我们可以这样做吗？
Hmm, turns out, not really.
嗯，事实证明，并非如此。
So again, maybe tech will advance.
再说一次，也许科技会进步。
But for now-
但现在——
Right, and-
对了，还有——
…
……
1:10:20 humans are quite incredible.
人类是相当不可思议的。
Yeah, we are.
是的，我们是。
1:10:22 But also, paleo’s kind of at the bottom of the pile, you know.
而且，你知道，旧石器时代是最底层的。
There’s not many of us.
我们人不多。
We don’t have a lot of funding.
我们没有很多资金。
It takes real money to adapt stuff.
改变东西需要真金白银。
So, you know, we’re scanning stuff with MRIs and things like that in hospitals, but it mostly doesn’t work very well because the problem you’ve got is, like I said, the bones take on some of the properties of the minerals in which they’re embedded, which means their density is really similar.
所以，你知道，我们在医院里用核磁共振成像和类似的东西扫描东西，但它大多效果不是很好，因为你遇到的问题是，就像我说的，骨头具有它们所嵌入的矿物质的一些特性，这意味着它们的密度非常相似。
And things like MRIs or seismic activity is basically looking for differences in density.
核磁共振成像或地震活动等基本上都是在寻找密度差异。
What if it’s the same density as, you know, it’s like I put some green Plasticine in some blue Plasticine, there’s going to be a bit of a join, and they’re going to be very, very slightly different.
如果它的密度相同，你知道，就像我把一些绿色橡皮泥放在一些蓝色橡皮泥中，会有一点连接，而且它们会非常非常轻微地不同。
1:11:07 But ultimately, you’re not going to be able to detect that through most means if you’re looking for density or mass or anything like that.
但最终，如果你正在寻找密度或质量或类似的东西，你将无法通过大多数方法检测到这一点。
Well, I personally think that there are few things as important to understand as the history of life on Earth.
嗯，我个人认为，没有什么比了解地球生命的历史更重要的了。
1:11:14 There are like books, right?
有类似的书，对吗？
There’s like a ch- …
好像有一个ch-...
or maybe you could think of it as chapters, and then one of the chapters is the time of the dinosaurs.
或者你可以把它想象成章节，其中一章就是恐龙时代。
…
……
And then there’s a great extinction, so it just goes up and up.
然后发生了一次大灭绝，所以它只会不断上升。
I mean, that’s not a million miles off.
我的意思是，那不是一百万英里。
1:11:31 I think Darwin had an analogy like that, of, we’ve got a few words on a few pages spread out, but between them you get an idea of what the story is and where it’s going.
我认为达尔文有过这样的类比，我们在几页纸上写了一些单词，但在它们之间你可以了解故事是什么以及它的发展方向。
I think what humans don’t quite realize is we may end up being just a chapter in a book.
我认为人类没有意识到的是，我们最终可能只是书中的一个章节。
1:11:45 It might be our extinction event, self-created, perhaps a nuclear war, perhaps robots take over, perhaps we don’t know.
这可能是我们自己造成的灭绝事件，也许是一场核战争，也许是机器人接管，也许我们不知道。
Well, or dumb luck.
好吧，或者运气不好。
1:11:59 I mean, the dinosaurs were doing absolutely fine until a dirty great rock hit them, and you can’t, you know, Ben Affleck and Bruce Willis movies aside, there’s only so much you can do about that.
我的意思是，恐龙表现得非常好，直到一块肮脏的大石头击中它们，你不能，你知道，除了本·阿弗莱克和布鲁斯·威利斯的电影之外，你能做的只有这么多。
Hey, you take that back.
嘿，你收回那句话。
1:12:13 There’s nothing they can do wrong.
他们没有什么可以做错的。
All right.
好的。
Quick pause.
快速暂停。
Bathroom break?
上厕所休息？
We’ve taken a few tangents, but let’s continue on the thread of T-Rex.
我们已经说了一些切线，但让我们继续讨论霸王龙的话题。
Go- go to the skull.
去——去头骨那里。
So the skull of T-Rex is iconic.
所以霸王龙的头骨是标志性的。
You- you describe it as being incredibly robust and overbuilt.
你——你形容它非常坚固并且过度建造。
Yeah, there’s a lot of bone on there.
是的，上面有很多骨头。
1:12:36 So we mentioned a couple of other things, like Giganotosaurus is this, you know, giant carnivore.
所以我们提到了其他一些事情，比如南方巨兽龙，你知道，巨型食肉动物。
If you put Giganotosaurus T-Rex in…
如果你把霸王龙放进去……
That’s the one.
就是这个。
So that’s, yeah, that’s from my old blog.
是的，这来自我的旧博客。
It’s not my image.
这不是我的形象。
Um…
嗯……
What are we looking at, on the left and the right?
我们在看什么，左边和右边？
So you’ve got T-Rex on the left in orange, and Giganotosaurus on the right in red.
所以，左边是橙色的霸王龙，右边是红色的巨兽龙。
1:12:50 As I said, they’re pretty similarly sized, but just look at the robusticity.
正如我所说，它们的大小非常相似，但只要看看坚固性即可。
The front of the snout of T-Rex is all bone.
霸王龙的鼻子前部都是骨头。
And yet, the major openings—there’s a thing called the antorbital fenestra, the opening in front of the orbit—is absolutely massive in Giganotosaurus.
然而，巨兽龙的主要开口——有一种叫做眶窗的东西，即轨道前面的开口——绝对是巨大的。
It’s like half the skull.
就像半个头骨一样。
The opening at the back of the skull is much bigger.
头骨后部的开口要大得多。
The opening in the lower jaw is much bigger.
下颌的开口要大得多。
And actually, the jaw, what you can’t see, side to side, is much thinner.
事实上，你看不到的下巴，从一侧到另一侧，要薄得多。
So their heads are the same size, and as animals, they are about the same linear dimensions.
所以它们的头部大小相同，并且作为动物，它们的线性尺寸大致相同。
But you can just see, there’s just way more bone in the T-Rex.
但你可以看到，霸王龙的骨头多得多。
It’s incredible.
太不可思议了。
So this is, like…
所以这就像……
1:13:31 it’s not overbuilt, it’s obviously evolved that this is the right amount of bone for the stresses and strains, for what it’s doing and how it’s acting.
它并没有过度建造，很明显，这是经过进化而形成的，对于压力和应变、它的作用和作用来说，这是适量的骨骼。
But you compare it to anything that’s not a very large tyrannosaur, and suddenly you see just how much bone has gone into it.
但你将它与任何不是很大的霸王龙进行比较，你会突然发现它有多少骨头。
It is a very large…
这是一个非常大的…
it’s an absolutely large head, but it’s a very heavy head with a lot of bone.
它的头绝对很大，但它的头很重，有很多骨头。
And a lot of that bone is there to resist all the forces of all the muscles, because it has this giant, super-powerful bite.
很多骨头可以抵抗所有肌肉的所有力量，因为它具有巨大的、超强大的咬合力。
Which again, you can see in the teeth.
同样，你可以从牙齿中看到这一点。
So the bone and the muscles kind of evolve together— …
所以骨骼和肌肉是一起进化的——……
1:14:00 to get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
变得越来越大，越来越大。
So you need this kind of structure for the power that, uh- …
所以你需要这种结构来提供力量，呃-......
the crush has.
暗恋有。
So one of the big things tyrannosaurs have…
所以霸王龙拥有的最重要的东西之一......
1:14:07 And this goes all the way down to the…
这一直到……
The earliest tyrannosaurs were like our size.
最早的霸王龙和我们的体型一样大。
Like little diddy things, like two, three meters long, be a meter and a half tall.
就像一些小玩意儿，比如两米、三米长，一米半高。
But they have fused nasals.
但他们有融合鼻。
So the pair of bones that, in us there’s not a lot there, but obviously in something like a dog or something like a baboon with a long nose, it’s like the whole top of the snout.
因此，在我们体内，这对骨头并不多，但显然在狗或长鼻子的狒狒之类的东西中，它就像整个鼻子的顶部。
And there’s two, one each side.
有两个，每边一个。
In tyrannosaurs, they fuse together, so it forms a solid bit of bone.
在霸王龙中，它们融合在一起，形成一块坚固的骨头。
So the whole top of the nose is solid.
所以整个鼻子顶部都是实心的。
And then that makes the skull just fundamentally more rigid and able to take more power through it.
这使得头骨从根本上变得更加坚硬，并且能够通过它承受更多的力量。
1:14:44 The very early ones weren’t super biters, I suspect, but they do also—but they do have the little flattened teeth at the front, so I strongly suspect the fused nasals, at least originally, is for resisting that.
我怀疑，最早期的那些并不是超级咬人，但它们也有——但它们的前面确实有扁平的小牙齿，所以我强烈怀疑融合的鼻鼻，至少最初是为了抵抗这种情况。
Because again, if you’ve got a long nose and you’re pulling with quite a lot of force at the very tip, that’s going to bend your snout.
因为，如果你的鼻子很长，并且在鼻尖处用很大的力拉，那么你的鼻子就会弯曲。
So strengthen that.
所以加强这一点。
Can you speak to the evolution from the smaller to the bigger of the T-Rex?
您能谈谈霸王龙从小型到大型的进化过程吗？
1:15:03 What were some of the evolutionary pressures?
进化压力有哪些？
What’s the story of the evolution?
进化的故事是什么？
So tyrannosaurs go back to the Middle Jurassic.
所以霸王龙可以追溯到侏罗纪中期。
1:15:11 So tyrannosaurs were around for a hundred million years.
所以霸王龙已经存在了一亿年了。
So from about 160-ish, 165-ish million years till the extinction.
所以从大约 160 亿年、165 亿年到灭绝。
66.5, I think, is the current dating on that.
我认为 66.5 是目前的日期。
So yeah, you’ve got a hundred million years of them.
所以是的，它们已经有一亿年了。
And the Middle Jurassic, annoyingly, is probably the bit of the Mesozoic—so the whole dinosaur period—that we know the least of.
令人烦恼的是，中侏罗纪可能是中生代（也就是整个恐龙时期）中我们所知最少的部分。
Just by chance, we just don’t have many rocks exposed of the right age that are fossil-bearing.
碰巧的是，我们没有多少年龄合适且含有化石的岩石暴露出来。
But we’ve got two or three tyrannosaurs from that time.
但我们有两到三只当时的霸王龙。
And yeah, they’re really quite diddy.
是的，他们真的很狡猾。
Yeah, they’d be chest-high to us, two or three meters long, including the tail.
是的，它们对我们来说齐胸高，两三米长，包括尾巴。
Probably more like three, a lot of them.
可能更多的是三个，很多。
Little heads, long arms.
头小，胳膊长。
They look every other carnivore going.
他们看起来和其他食肉动物一样。
1:15:58 There’s not a lot special to them at this point.
目前对他们来说并没有什么特别的。
They’ve only just separated from their nearest groups, which is actually something like the ancestors of Giganotosaurus, actually.
它们刚刚与最近的群体分离，这实际上类似于南方巨兽龙的祖先。
They do have the fused nasals early on.
他们确实很早就有融合鼻了。
They do have these special little teeth at the front of the jaw very early on.
他们很早就在下巴前部就有了这些特殊的小牙齿。
They’re feathered early on.
它们很早就长出了羽毛。
Definitively, we have skeletons with feathers on them that are early tyrannosaurs at least until the Early Cretaceous.
毫无疑问，我们拥有的带有羽毛的骨骼至少在白垩纪早期是早期霸王龙。
But yeah, they’re knocking around as relatively small animals in Europe and Asia.
但是，是的，它们在欧洲和亚洲作为相对较小的动物到处活动。
We have a couple from the UK.
我们有一对来自英国的夫妇。
We have a whole bunch from China.
我们有很多来自中国的。
There’s stuff from, like, Kyrgyzstan and places like this.
有来自吉尔吉斯斯坦等地的东西。
I think there’s one, a relatively early one from Russia.
我认为有一个，一个来自俄罗斯的相对较早的。
1:16:40 And then when they get into the Early Cretaceous, they start getting quite a bit bigger.
然后当它们进入白垩纪早期时，它们开始变得更大。
So someone like Yutyrannus, if you want to…
所以像 Yutyrannus 这样的人，如果你想……
There you go.
就这样吧。
So Yutyrannus is fuzzy.
所以羽王龙是模糊的。
We have three specimens definitively feathered.
我们有三个标本确实有羽毛。
It gets— to six, seven meters long.
它的长度可达六、七米。
There’s something funny-looking about the sexy, smaller, earlier version of the T-Rex.
性感、小型、早期版本的霸王龙看起来有些滑稽。
But again, this is seven, eight meters, maybe weighs half a ton or a ton.
不过，这有七、八米，也许有半吨或一吨重。
1:17:04 We are very much on the menu for an animal that size.
我们非常喜欢这种体型的动物。
1:17:11 And it’s massive and dangerous.
而且它规模巨大且危险。
Quite what triggered them…
到底是什么触发了他们……
There’s general patterns in evolution of size change, and one famous one called Cope’s Rule I’ve worked on a fair bit, which is the idea that over time, things tend to get bigger.
尺寸变化的演变有一般的模式，我研究过一个著名的科普法则，即随着时间的推移，事物往往会变得更大。
And they do for various different reasons, one of which is just pure, almost, like, diffusion.
它们这样做是出于各种不同的原因，其中之一就是纯粹的、几乎就像扩散一样。
If you start small and you evolve, well, you can’t get much smaller, but you can always get bigger.
如果你从小处开始并不断发展，那么，你不可能变得更小，但你总是可以变得更大。
So you’ll naturally kind of diffuse away.
所以你会自然而然地散开。
Whereas if you’re a blue whale, you probably can’t get much bigger and its descendants will probably end up being smaller.
然而，如果你是一头蓝鲸，你可能不会变得更大，而它的后代最终可能会变得更小。
But there are reasons that bigger things do better.
但更大的事情做得更好是有原因的。
You can hunt more stuff.
你可以寻找更多的东西。
You are more energy-efficient.
你更加节能。
You can move more efficiently.
您可以更有效地移动。
1:17:50 You’re dominant in contests, particularly with conspecifics.
你在竞争中占据主导地位，尤其是在与同种人的竞争中。
If you’re trying to win a territory or win mating rights, bigger things usually beat up smaller things.
如果你想赢得领地或赢得交配权，较大的动物通常会击败较小的动物。
So there’s going to be selection favoring them.
因此，将会有对他们有利的选择。
But then big things don’t usually do well in extinction events, so that tends to reset the clock by killing off the big stuff, and then smaller stuff does better again.
但大的生物通常在灭绝事件中表现不佳，因此往往会通过杀死大的生物来重置时钟，然后较小的生物再次表现得更好。
So mostly, there are evolutionary advantages, but—
所以大多数情况下，存在进化优势，但是——
But a fairly big one.
不过是相当大的一个。
1:18:12 So yeah.
所以是的。
It’s the classic thing of there’s a day-to-day advantage of being bigger, and that might last for a few million years, right up to the point that suddenly there’s the biggest drought the Earth has encountered in five million years, and then all the big stuff just gets nailed.
这是一个经典的事情，规模更大会带来日常优势，这种优势可能会持续几百万年，直到地球突然遭遇五百万年来最严重的干旱，然后所有的大事都被钉牢了。
Oh, so we should probably say, is this accurate to say that the bigger you get, the fewer of you there are?
噢，那么我们或许应该说，越大越少，这样说准确吗？
There are, yeah.
有，是的。
1:18:33 There’s just less fundamental space, you know?
只是基本空间更少了，你知道吗？
There are more mice than there are elephants.
老鼠比大象还多。
There are more elephants than there are whales.
大象的数量比鲸鱼的数量还多。
There is only so much biomass that an ecosystem can support.
生态系统所能支持的生物量是有限的。
And bigger things are just worse at repopulating in extinction events.
而越大的生物在灭绝事件中的繁殖能力就越差。
Yeah.
是的。
…for example.
…例如。
Right, so they’re less likely to survive because they need more fuel.
是的，所以它们生存的可能性较小，因为它们需要更多的燃料。
1:18:50 What would feed a mouse for a year won’t feed an elephant for a week.
可以喂老鼠一年的食物不能喂大象一周。
So, if…
所以，如果……
And of course, the mice are going to have an easier time finding a few little seeds than an elephant’s going to find tons of food, and then they’ve got less genetic diversity.
当然，老鼠找到一些小种子比大象找到大量食物更容易，然后它们的遗传多样性就会减少。
There might be 5,000 mice, there might be 200 elephants, so who’s likely to have more genes or who’s likely to have selection acting on those genes to produce a survivor?
可能有 5,000 只老鼠，可能有 200 头大象，那么谁可能拥有更多基因，或者谁可能对这些基因进行选择以产生幸存者？
Well, the one with five or ten or a thousand times the population.
嗯，人口是人口的五倍、十倍或一千倍。
1:19:21 And then, yeah, on top of that, you’ve then got the very slow reproductive cycle, which then again gives evolution not a lot to work with if, as an elephant, you’re breeding once every five years, and as a mouse, you’re doing it once every eight weeks.
然后，是的，最重要的是，你的繁殖周期非常缓慢，如果作为大象，你每五年繁殖一次，而作为老鼠，你每八周繁殖一次，这又给进化带来了很大的帮助。
What can we say about the evolution of just the massive, bone-crushing power of…
对于巨大的、碎骨的力量的进化，我们能说什么呢……
So that starts kicking in seriously, kind of eutyranosizing up.
所以这开始认真地发挥作用，有点像优酪氨酸化（eutyranosizing）。
1:19:40 So that’s when you start getting not just bigger animals that are getting to a comparable size to the other big dinosaur carnivores of the time, you start getting those bigger heads.
所以从那时起，你不仅开始得到更大的动物，它们的体型与当时其他大型食肉恐龙相当，你还开始得到更大的头。
But even then, relatively late in tyrannosaur evolution, so getting into the middle part of the Late Cretaceous, you see a split, and we have a group called the alioramous, which have really, really long, thin skulls, and they look much more like a kind of, here’s a Velociraptor, they look much more like a giant Velociraptor-ish than a tyrannosaur.
但即便如此，在霸王龙进化的相对较晚的时期，进入白垩纪晚期的中期，你会看到一个分裂，我们有一个叫做异龙类的群体，它们的头骨非常非常长，很薄，它们看起来更像是一种迅猛龙，它们看起来更像是一种巨大的迅猛龙，而不是霸王龙。
Still relatively small arms, but it’s a very long snout.
手臂仍然相对较小，但鼻子却很长。
1:20:23 And so this is a fast-biting animal with a relatively light bite, so it’s probably taking really quite small stuff proportionally.
因此，这是一种咬得很快的动物，咬合力相对较轻，因此它可能会按比例咬住非常小的东西。
And then on the other side, you’ve got the tyrannosaurines, which are the really big-headed ones.
然后在另一边，有暴龙，它们是真正的大头龙。
And so that is few ancestral things like Albertosaurus and Gorgosaurus, both from Alberta, but then Daspletosaurus, a thing I named called Jiuchengtyrannus in China, and then Tarbosaurus and Tyrannosaurus.
因此，很少有像艾伯塔龙和蛇发女妖龙这样的祖先，它们都来自艾伯塔省，但还有恐龙，我在中国将其命名为九城暴龙，然后是特暴龙和暴龙。
And you’ve really only got three or four of these ultra-giants, which are all kind of 10 meters plus in size, and then have the really broad skull with a real kind of excessive bite force.
而且你实际上只有三四个这样的超级巨人，它们的体型都在 10 米以上，并且拥有非常宽阔的头骨和真正的过度咬合力。
But even things like Albertosaurus, which is, I mean, a big animal, seven, eight meters, yeah, a ton or so.
但即使是像艾伯塔龙这样的动物，我的意思是，一种大型动物，七、八米，是的，一吨左右。
1:21:11 They’re not quite T-Rex, but they’re definitely more robust than the other contemporaneous carnivores.
它们不完全是霸王龙，但它们绝对比同时代的其他食肉动物更强壮。
So there is this progression of getting bigger, getting a bigger head; the teeth get bigger, but there are fewer of them, building up the bone biting and the power.
所以有这样一个过程：变得越来越大，脑袋越来越大；牙齿变大，但数量减少，增强了咬骨力和力量。
But with some interesting evolutionary offshoots in the way that, yeah, cats are largely much of a muchness, but then you get things like, well, like bobcats and lynx, which are actually quite bulky, stocky little cats that don’t have the long tail and are doing something quite different.
但是，有一些有趣的进化分支，是的，猫在很大程度上是一种东西，但是你会得到像山猫和山猫这样的东西，它们实际上是体积庞大、矮胖的小猫，没有长尾巴，并且正在做一些完全不同的事情。
Can you just speak almost more generally?
你能说得更笼统一些吗？
1:21:45 Because T-Rex is sort of one of the great arch predators of history on Earth.
因为霸王龙是地球历史上最伟大的掠食者之一。
How does an arch predator evolve?
大掠食者是如何进化的？
Like, why did T-Rex win?
比如，为什么霸王龙获胜？
Why isn’t everybody, why isn’t there, like, a vicious race to the top, and everyone’s…
为什么不是每个人，为什么没有，比如，一场恶性竞争，每个人的……
I have a problem with the term apex predator because ecologically, apex predators are generally defined as things that eat other predators.
我对顶级捕食者这个词有疑问，因为从生态学角度来说，顶级捕食者通常被定义为吃其他捕食者的东西。
1:22:01 So a great white shark is, because it’s eating stuff like tuna and sea lions, which are themselves predators, so it’s a predator of predators.
大白鲨就是这样，因为它吃金枪鱼和海狮等东西，而它们本身就是掠食者，所以它是掠食者的掠食者。
Whereas people love saying lions are apex predators, and they love saying T-Rex is an apex predator.
然而人们喜欢说狮子是顶级掠食者，他们也喜欢说霸王龙是顶级掠食者。
They’re eating herbivores.
他们吃草食动物。
This is not some weird and unusual thing.
这不是什么奇怪和不寻常的事情。
They’re the largest predator in their ecosystem, and they are a giant one.
它们是生态系统中最大的掠食者，而且体型巨大。
My friend, Darren Naish, has moved to using the word arch predator, so it’s like some kind of massive thing, but avoiding the term apex because I think that leads into a…
我的朋友达伦·奈什（Darren Naish）已经开始使用“拱形捕食者”这个词，所以它就像某种巨大的东西，但避免使用“顶点”这个词，因为我认为这会导致……
It’s a subtle terminology thing, but like…
这是一个微妙的术语，但就像……
An important one.
一个重要的。
1:22:52 I just learned something new today.
我今天刚刚学到了一些新东西。
So I didn’t understand, I thought I was using the word apex predator as…
所以我不明白，我以为我用的是顶级掠食者这个词……
But that’s because everyone keeps using it when I don’t think they should.
但那是因为每个人都在我认为不应该使用的时候继续使用它。
All right.
好的。
And now you’re getting into linguistics, and it’s like, well, if everyone uses it to mean that, does it now mean that rather than what it should mean?
现在你正在进入语言学，这就好像，好吧，如果每个人都用它来表示这个意思，那么它现在的意思是不是它应该表示的意思？
1:23:01 And then I’m probably losing that argument because actually you’ll probably find way more stuff calling it an apex predator than you will an arch predator, but here we are.
然后我可能会失去这个论点，因为实际上你可能会发现更多的东西称其为顶级掠食者，而不是顶级掠食者，但我们在这里。
Arch predator, beautiful.
大掠食者，美丽。
1:23:16 I learned something today.
今天我学到了一些东西。
It’s-
这是——
But that, what, that you’re saying T-Rex didn’t eat other predators?
但是，什么，你是说霸王龙不吃其他掠食者？
Well, it’s probably not going to.
好吧，可能不会。
1:23:22 So we can get into, though I’d prefer not to because it’s tedious, the argument of whether or not there are these small things which some people have said is a different group called Nanotyrannus, or a different species called Nanotyrannus.
因此，我们可以讨论是否存在这些小东西的争论，尽管我不想这样做，因为这很乏味，有些人说这些小东西是一个不同的群体，称为矮暴龙，或者是一个不同的物种，称为矮暴龙。
But fundamentally, T-Rex is definitely weird, even compared to all the other giant tyrannosaurs that are very closely related to it, because it is by far, ludicrously by far, the largest carnivore in its ecosystem.
但从根本上说，霸王龙绝对是奇怪的，即使与所有其他与它关系密切的巨型暴龙相比也是如此，因为它是迄今为止，可笑的，其生态系统中最大的食肉动物。
So…
所以……
So it doesn’t really have competition, actually?
那么实际上它并没有真正的竞争吗？
I mean, so this is a Velociraptor skull.
我的意思是，这是迅猛龙的头骨。
1:23:54 There are some carnivores that are a bit bigger than this…
有些食肉动物比这个大一点……
…But not enormously so which we’re knocking around as T-Rex.
......但并没有那么严重，我们称之为霸王龙。
The skull’s the same type.
头骨是同一类型。
Right, but, like, you think about that.
是的，但是，你想一下。
And that’s like going to Africa and going, “Okay, there are lions.
这就像去非洲然后说：“好吧，那里有狮子。
What’s the next biggest predator?” And it’s like, well, there’s a weasel about this big.
下一个最大的掠食者是什么？”就像，嗯，有一只这么大的黄鼠狼。
Like, it’s that kind of size difference, and you don’t get that normally in ecosystems.
就像这种大小差异，在生态系统中通常不会出现这种情况。
So it didn’t have some of the other big dinosaurs around it?
那么它周围没有其他一些大型恐龙吗？
Not carnivores.
不是肉食动物。
1:24:34 There are huge herbivores.
有巨大的食草动物。
Oh, there…
哦，有……
But there are no huge carnivores around.
但周围没有大型食肉动物。
Oh, I see.
我懂了。
1:24:38 It would eat those juveniles of the herbivores, but not…
它会吃食草动物的幼体，但不会……
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
1:24:41 It’s gonna be eating Triceratops and Edmontosaurus and Parasaurolophus.
它会吃三角龙、埃德蒙顿龙和副栉龙。
There are even a couple of giant sauropods knocking around in some places.
有些地方甚至还有几只巨大的蜥脚类恐龙在活动。
Got it.
知道了。
It’s gonna be hoovering them up, but how often is it gonna eat…
它会把它们吸起来，但它多久吃一次……
1:24:49 Again, Velociraptor isn’t there, but how often is it gonna eat something the size of an adult Velociraptor?
再说一次，迅猛龙并不在那里，但它多久会吃掉成年迅猛龙大小的东西呢？
I mean, they’re a fraction of our size, and we’re probably too small.
我的意思是，他们只是我们规模的一小部分，而且我们可能太小了。
This is like lions hunting mice.
这就像狮子捕食老鼠一样。
You’re just not gonna, unless one virtually runs into your mouth, you’re not gonna go and try and eat it.
你只是不会，除非有一个实际上进入你的嘴里，否则你不会去尝试吃它。
So the question still stands about arch predators then, like how do you win in evolution?
所以问题仍然是关于大掠食者，比如你如何在进化中获胜？
Yeah.
是的。
1:25:16 Well, I mean, there’s no real winners, there’s just, you know, turnover because ultimately the birds, you know, it still lost out when things went wrong.
嗯，我的意思是，没有真正的赢家，只有，你知道，营业额，因为最终，当事情出错时，鸟儿仍然会失败。
And as we were just talking about, you know, things do tend to lose out when they’re big.
正如我们刚才所说，你知道，当事情变大时，往往会失败。
They’re just so much more vulnerable to extinction.
它们只是更容易灭绝。
But clearly, dinosaurian ecosystems had much bigger herbivores, and therefore by extent, much bigger carnivores than any system we’ve seen before or after.
但显然，恐龙生态系统有更大的食草动物，因此在某种程度上，比我们之前或之后见过的任何系统都要大得多的食肉动物。
1:25:47 Even in relatively sparse ones, like bits of the Late Triassic, when the dinosaurs were really just getting going, or the very Early Jurassic, you’ve still got some multi-ton herbivores and then you’ve got some multiple 100-kilo predators, about as big as elephants and lions get today.
即使在相对稀疏的地区，比如三叠纪晚期，恐龙刚刚开始活动，或者侏罗纪早期，仍然有一些重达数吨的食草动物，还有一些重达 100 公斤的食肉动物，大约与今天的大象和狮子一样大。
And then once you’re in the Jurassic and Cretaceous, it is entirely normal to have multiple species that are 10, 20, 30 tons plus as herbivores and anything up to five tons as a carnivore.
一旦进入侏罗纪和白垩纪，拥有多种重达 10、20、30 吨以上的食草动物和重达 5 吨的食肉动物是完全正常的。
T-Rex is probably the biggest of them, but fully terrestrial carnivores that exceed a ton?
霸王龙可能是其中最大的，但是超过一吨的完全陆地食肉动物？
There are dozens of species of dinosaurs.
恐龙有几十种。
Is it interesting to you that no other carnivore predator was able to develop in that environment over millions of years?
您是否觉得有趣的是，数百万年来没有其他食肉动物能够在这种环境中发育？
I mean, they’re probably just ecologically dominant in the way that mammals are now, you know.
我的意思是，它们可能只是像现在的哺乳动物一样在生态上占主导地位，你知道。
1:26:42 Crocs get bigger than lions and tigers, but they’re fundamentally tied to the water, but you don’t see crocs roaming the Serengeti or anything like that.
鳄鱼比狮子和老虎更大，但它们从根本上与水息息相关，但你不会看到鳄鱼在塞伦盖蒂或类似的地方漫步。
But yeah, big, I mean, the really big crocs even now get to over a ton, so those are very serious animals.
但是，是的，我的意思是，真正的大鳄鱼现在已经超过了一吨，所以它们是非常严肃的动物。
And I think big polar bears are in the, like, 500-kilo range, though again, they hunt a lot of stuff in water, and then things like grizzlies are at least partially herbivorous or omnivorous.
我认为大型北极熊的体重在 500 公斤左右，不过，它们在水中捕食很多东西，然后像灰熊这样的东西至少是部分草食性或杂食性的。
Well, so there was a very large marine reptile, Mosasaurus.
嗯，所以有一种非常大的海洋爬行动物，沧龙。
1:27:15 Did T-Rex ever come across that?
霸王龙遇到过这种情况吗？
In theory at least, the really giant Mosasaurs are much bigger, in the same way that, unsurprisingly, whales are much bigger than terrestrial carnivores now.
至少从理论上来说，真正的巨型沧龙要大得多，就像鲸鱼现在比陆地食肉动物大得多一样，毫不奇怪。
1:27:22 Jurassic Park, unsurprisingly, has rather exaggerated it, so the one from, I think, Jurassic World is like twice the size it should be.
不出所料，《侏罗纪公园》相当夸张，所以我认为《侏罗纪世界》的规模是应有的两倍。
But some of these things were still, like, you know, 15, 20 meters.
但其中一些东西仍然是，比如，你知道，15、20 米。
But yeah, some of them are absolutely giant.
但是，是的，其中一些绝对是巨大的。
We had one dug up in the UK just a couple of years ago, and I got to see the skull of it, or a cast of the skull, and yeah, it’s about the same size as a T-Rex skull.
几年前，我们在英国挖出了一个，我看到了它的头骨，或者头骨的铸件，是的，它的大小与霸王龙头骨差不多。
If we take a ridiculous detour before we get back to science, what creature in the history of Earth would challenge a T-Rex in a fight, would you say?
如果我们在回到科学之前走了一个可笑的弯路，你会说地球历史上有什么生物会在战斗中挑战霸王龙？
1:27:55 What…
什么……
On, on land?
在、在陆地上？
On land.
在陆地上。
I mean, nothing reasonable.
我的意思是，没有什么合理的。
1:28:05 The really big ones…
真正的大的…
The only other thing you can really add is, so this might be a very British adage, it’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog.
您真正可以添加的唯一另一件事是，这可能是一句非常英国的格言，重要的不是打斗中狗的大小，而是狗打斗的大小。
So yeah, maybe there’s something a bit smaller which is just hyper-aggressive, and that would be enough to win, like the classic honey badgers chasing off lions.
所以，是的，也许有一些更小、更具攻击性的东西，这足以获胜，就像经典的蜜獾追逐狮子一样。
It’s not that a honey badger would win in a fight, but if the honey badger is prepared to put up that much of a fight and the lion really doesn’t want to get hurt, then he kind of technically wins.
这并不是说蜜獾会在战斗中获胜，但如果蜜獾准备好进行如此多的战斗，而狮子真的不想受伤，那么从技术上讲，它就赢了。
You can’t imagine any of the cats, like tigers, none of them…
你无法想象任何猫，比如老虎，没有一个……
1:28:40 …Can do, I mean, the size difference, the power of the jaw, all of that kind of stuff.
......我的意思是，尺寸差异、下巴的力量，所有这些东西。
Yeah, but going to T-Rex, like, what could reasonably challenge it?
是的，但是对于霸王龙来说，什么可以合理地挑战它呢？
1:28:48 There are a couple of other giant tyrannosaurs, there are a couple of giant carcharodontosaurs from South America that I would say are comparable in linear measurements, but are probably rather smaller and rather lighter, in which case your money is going to be on the bigger guy with the bigger bite.
还有其他几种巨型霸王龙，还有一些来自南美的巨型鲨齿龙，我想说它们在线性测量上具有可比性，但它们可能更小、更轻，在这种情况下，你的钱将花在咬力更大的更大的家伙身上。
And that simply is T-Rex.
这就是霸王龙。
And the bite is important.
咬合很重要。
Yeah, I think it is because, yeah, these guys, the carcharodontosaurs, they’re much more cutting and they’re really killing stuff probably by grappling with the arms because they do have big muscular arms with big claws, and then slashing away at stuff.
是的，我认为这是因为，是的，这些家伙，鲨齿龙，它们更擅长切割，它们实际上可能是通过与手臂搏斗来杀死东西，因为它们确实有肌肉发达的手臂和大爪子，然后砍掉东西。
1:29:12 So I think they’re probably doing something more like almost like wolves or hyenas or a hunting dog, where they’re harrying stuff and slashing at it and you’re basically bleeding them out…
所以我认为他们可能正在做一些更像狼或鬣狗或猎犬的事情，他们会抓东西并砍它，你基本上会让他们流血......
…And wearing them down.
……并让它们疲惫不堪。
So, what about that strategy?
那么，这个策略又如何呢？
1:29:43 So maybe you could speak to biting strategy.
所以也许你可以谈谈咬合策略。
So a T-Rex is, I guess, a relatively slow bite but extremely powerful.
所以我猜霸王龙的咬合速度相对较慢，但力量却非常强大。
What about animals that have very fast bites?
那么那些咬合速度非常快的动物呢？
So it’s very simple mechanics, you know.
所以这是非常简单的机制，你知道。
1:29:56 If you have a very long jaw, you’re going to close faster but with less power at the tip than if you have a really short one that’s deep.
如果你的下巴很长，你的闭合速度会比你的下巴短而深的时候闭合得更快，但尖端的力量会更小。
And so that really is it.
确实如此。
But yeah, let’s say there are things like the aramins and then there are things like, you know, Velociraptor and a lot of its relatives, really very small, but narrow-snouted.
但是，是的，假设有像阿拉明这样的东西，然后还有像迅猛龙和它的很多亲戚这样的东西，它们确实很小，但鼻子很窄。
There’s not going to be a lot of fundamental strength here.
这里不会有太多的基本力量。
The teeth, very numerous, very small, so they’re much more about grabbing something tiny, you know.
牙齿非常多，非常小，所以它们更多的是用来抓住微小的东西，你知道的。
Velociraptors eating rat-sized stuff, that’s going to be probably its primary diet, or…
迅猛龙吃老鼠大小的东西，这可能是它的主要食物，或者……
So, so I wonder if there’s a bunch…
所以，所以我想知道是否有一堆......
…kind of diet.
……某种饮食。
…of smaller fast-biting things that could just bleed a T-Rex to death.
......较小的快速咬人的东西可能会让霸王龙流血致死。
They’re going to struggle, though.
不过，他们会很挣扎。
1:30:40 I remember doing some work for one documentary, and they literally wanted a Velociraptor fighting a T-Rex, and I was sort of like, “You do know this is, like-” “…
我记得为一部纪录片做了一些工作，他们真的想要一只迅猛龙与霸王龙战斗，我有点像，“你确实知道这是，就像——”“......
we’re gonna shoot some meerkats killing a lion.” And it’s like, well, you can film it, but no one would believe it, because, you know, these ankle-high things trying to savage a shin bone, I’m sure they’ll make some holes and it’ll lose some blood, and it may not be very happy, but I don’t think they’re gonna win.
我们要射杀一些狐獴来杀死狮子。”就像，好吧，你可以拍摄它，但没有人会相信它，因为，你知道，这些齐脚踝高的东西试图破坏胫骨，我确信它们会弄出一些洞，它会流一些血，它可能不太高兴，但我不认为他们会赢。
The size of a velociraptor was exaggerated by Jurassic Park.
侏罗纪公园夸大了迅猛龙的体型。
Oh, enormously.
噢，非常大。
1:31:16 I mean, they get a bit bigger than this.
我的意思是，它们比这个大一点。
…
……
In terms of the skull.
就头骨而言。
But yeah, they’re kind of thigh-high to me, like a meter or so to the top of the head, two meters long, whereas in the movies, they’re standing taller than guys who are six feet.
但是，是的，它们对我来说有点高，就像到头顶一米左右，两米长，而在电影中，它们站起来比六英尺高的人还要高。
So it’s just massively, massively scaled up, and then these kind of big, domey heads, and they’re not the really long, narrow snout.
所以它只是大规模地、大规模地放大，然后是这些大而圆顶的头，它们并不是真正又长又窄的鼻子。
Maybe we could change that.
也许我们可以改变这一点。
1:31:41 What does the Jurassic Park and Jurassic World franchise get right and wrong?
《侏罗纪公园》和《侏罗纪世界》系列有何对错？
I mean, they get wrong a hell of a lot.
我的意思是，他们犯了很多错误。
What are some of the really definitive things to you that are interesting that it gets wrong, and also what are the things it gets pretty close to right?
对你来说，有哪些真正明确的事情是有趣的，但它却出错了，还有哪些事情非常接近正确？
I mean, I just want to preface my answer, because I always get asked about this, understandably, and it’s like I get that it’s a movie, but if someone’s gonna ask me, “What does it get wrong?” I’m gonna give them an answer, but I do get people going, “Ah, you’re just nitpicking.
我的意思是，我只是想先说一下我的答案，因为我总是被问到这个问题，这是可以理解的，就好像我知道这是一部电影，但如果有人问我，“它出了什么问题？”我会给他们一个答案，但我确实会让人们说：“啊，你只是在吹毛求疵。
1:31:57 Ah, you know it’s fiction.
啊，你知道这是虚构的。
Ah, you know it’s made up.” Yeah, I do know, but someone asked the question, so here’s the answer.
啊，你知道这是编出来的。”是的，我知道，但是有人问了这个问题，所以这就是答案。
I should say that some of the things that I’ve heard you describe, I feel like it’s the responsibility of those folks to get it right.
我应该说，我听你描述的一些事情，我觉得这些人有责任把它做好。
1:32:16 I think there’s something I really deeply admire.
我认为有一些事情我非常钦佩。
There’s a show called Chernobyl.
有一个节目叫《切尔诺贝利》。
It’s like they don’t need to be that accurate, but they really…
好像他们不需要那么准确，但他们真的……
it’s like the detail of the kitchenware- in a room, just to get the tiniest detail right.
这就像房间里厨具的细节一样，只是为了把最微小的细节做好。
Who’s that for?
那是给谁的？
I don’t know who that’s for, but that’s great art.
我不知道这是给谁的，但那是伟大的艺术。
That’s the spirit of the thing.
这就是事情的精神。
If you focus on getting those tiny details right, some magical thing happens about the bigger story.
如果你专注于把这些微小的细节做好，那么更大的故事就会发生一些神奇的事情。
If you don’t care about the details, the story gets corrupted.
如果你不关心细节，故事就会被破坏。
So, I just wanted to say that some of the things you describe, like how many fingers, um-
所以，我只是想说，你所描述的一些事情，比如有多少根手指，嗯-
1:33:10 …
……
it’s like that’s important to get that right, because if you do, some magical stuff can really emerge.
做好这件事很重要，因为如果你做到了，一些神奇的东西就会真正出现。
And it could become a legendary film as opposed to just a- …
它可能会成为一部传奇电影，而不仅仅是……
a summer hit.
夏季热门。
…
……
1:33:18 that’s my take.
这是我的看法。
Again, I’ve worked on documentaries where they’re claiming that accuracy is absolutely critical and 100% important, and they won’t put anything on screen that I haven’t told them to, and- …then many of those things turn out not to be quite as true as advertised, once you get around to it.
再说一遍，我曾制作过纪录片，他们声称准确性绝对至关重要，而且 100% 重要，而且他们不会在屏幕上放任何我没有告诉他们的内容，而且——……一旦你抽出时间，很多事情就会被证明并不像宣传的那么真实。
So, I’m aware that when even documentaries will take massive liberties, you can’t be too harsh on what is popular fiction.
所以，我知道，即使是纪录片也会有很大的自由，但你不能对通俗小说太严厉。
On the other hand, I am also aware that it is by far, by a ludicrous degree, the most popular bit of any kind of media that includes my work…
另一方面，我也意识到，从某种程度上来说，它是包括我的作品在内的所有媒体中最受欢迎的部分……
1:34:00 …as it were, or something that I’m actively engaged in and know about.
……可以说，或者是我积极参与并了解的事情。
So, whether or not it should have that influence or whether or not the filmmakers should have responsibility, it does.
所以，无论它是否应该有这种影响，或者电影制片人是否应该承担责任，它确实如此。
It does have that knock-on.
它确实有这种冲击力。
So, I mean, it’s simple as stuff as T-rex can’t see if you can’t move.
所以，我的意思是，这很简单，就像霸王龙看不到你是否无法移动一样。
Yeah, it could.
是的，可以。
I don’t know where that came from.
我不知道那是从哪里来的。
As far as I can tell, Crichton just dreamed it up.
据我所知，克莱顿只是凭空想象出来的。
In The Lost World, his sequel book, he hints that there’s a research paper that says it, and that’s kind of where he got it from.
在他的续集《失落的世界》中，他暗示有一篇研究论文说过这一点，而这就是他从那里得到的。
There’s a second paleontologist character who’s advising Dodgson, the evil InGen guy, and he says, “Oh, no, well, that’s from such-and-such’s research.” And, like, I tried looking it up.
还有第二个古生物学家角色正在为道奇森提供建议，道奇森是邪恶的 InGen 家伙，他说：“哦，不，好吧，那是来自某某的研究。”而且，就像，我尝试查找它。
As far as I can tell, it doesn’t exist and never did.
据我所知，它不存在，也从未存在过。
1:34:41 So, I think it’s just straight fiction.
所以，我认为这只是纯粹的虚构。
It works for the book and it works for the movie, but it’s…
它适用于书，也适用于电影，但它......
as far as I can tell, it’s straight fiction, and Crichton just made it up.
据我所知，这完全是虚构的，是克莱顿编造的。
If it’s buried in some bit of literature, he’s done better finding it than I have, and I’ve had a really good look, and I know how to look.
如果它被埋藏在一些文献中，他比我能更好地找到它，而且我看得非常清楚，而且我知道如何寻找。
And I’ve never come across anyone who’s found it either.
我也从未遇到过任何人找到它。
But it does, it just warps the perception, you know.
但事实确实如此，它只是扭曲了人们的看法，你知道。
Velociraptor, cheetah speed, pack hunters, super intelligent, giant-sized animals, and, okay, 1993 it’s a bit more forgivable, but even then we were pretty confident they had feathers.
迅猛龙、猎豹的速度、群居猎人、超级聪明、体型巨大的动物，好吧，1993 年的情况还可以原谅，但即便如此，我们仍然非常有信心它们有羽毛。
Is any of that true?
这是真的吗？
1:35:15 Wait, so…
等等，所以……
Probably not.
可能不会。
The pack hunter aspect of it?
群体猎人方面呢？
So, that’s something I’ve written quite a lot about.
所以，这是我写了很多的东西。
1:35:21 The evidence for pack hunting in any dinosaur at all is almost nonexistent.
任何恐龙群体狩猎的证据几乎不存在。
It basically doesn’t exist.
基本上是不存在的。
And that’s going exactly back to, again, that stuff we were talking about, bite marks and taphonomy and the history of specimens and how you interpret stuff.
这又回到了我们刚才讨论的那些东西，咬痕、埋藏学、标本的历史以及你如何解释东西。
So, what kind of evidence would show, like, maybe bite marks from multiple sources?
那么，什么样的证据会显示出来自多个来源的咬痕呢？
1:35:43 Is that…
那是……
So, it’s really, really tough.
所以，这真的非常非常困难。
1:35:47 The main one which was put forward is…
提出的主要内容是……
there’s this famous association in Montana of Deinonychus, which is often confused with Velociraptor, including in the books and movie.
蒙大拿州有一个著名的恐爪龙协会，它经常与迅猛龙混淆，包括在书籍和电影中。
Basically, a bigger version of this that’s rather older, from the early Cretaceous, and a thing called Tenontosaurus, which is kind of iguanodontian.
基本上，它是一个更大的版本，相当古老，来自白垩纪早期，是一种叫做腱龙的东西，它是禽龙类的一种。
So, an iguanodon with spiky thumbs.
所以，这是一只有着尖刺拇指的禽龙。
Basically, otherwise, a fairly run-of-the-mill herbivore.
基本上，除此之外，它是一种相当普通的草食动物。
And there are two sites, I believe, for this, but there’s one that’s much more important, where you have a Tenontosaurus carcass with Deinonychus carcasses.
我相信有两个地点可以做到这一点，但有一个更重要，那里有一具腱龙尸体和恐爪龙尸体。
And so, the interpretation of this is, well, this is a group that brought down the herbivore.
所以，对此的解释是，这是一个击倒食草动物的群体。
And of course, the immediate counterargument to that is, “Well, why did they all die there?”
当然，直接的反驳是，“好吧，为什么他们都死在那里？”
1:36:37 When lions kill a wildebeest, they eat it.
当狮子杀死角马时，它们就会吃掉它。
They don’t all just die next to it.
他们并不都死在它旁边。
1:36:43 Or even if they did kill it and start eating it, and then, like, if they got into a fight and killed each other, well, lions as a species are not going to hang around for very long if every time they kill something they get into a mortal fight and kill half their pride.
或者，即使它们确实杀死了它并开始吃它，然后，就像，如果它们陷入战斗并互相残杀，好吧，狮子作为一个物种不会停留很长时间，如果它们每次杀死一些东西时都会陷入一场殊死的战斗并杀死一半的骄傲。
There’s nothing obvious that killed them, but it’s at least possible that this was something like a predator trap.
没有任何明显的东西杀死了它们，但至少有可能这像是捕食者的陷阱。
So, predator traps are really neat.
所以说，捕食者陷阱真的很巧妙。
La Brea Tar Pits is a classic example.
拉布雷亚焦油坑就是一个典型的例子。
The idea is a herbivore stumbles into something like tar.
这个想法是食草动物无意中陷入焦油之类的东西。
You’ve got your deer or wildebeest or mammoth or whatever it is waist-deep in tar and going, “I’m dying, I’m dying,” and making horrible noises.
你把你的鹿、角马、猛犸象或其他什么东西都浸在齐腰深的焦油里，一边说：“我快死了，我快死了”，并发出可怕的声音。
And, you know, Smilodon walks over and goes, “Great,” and wades out after it, and he’s now stuck.
而且，你知道，剑齿虎走过来，说：“太棒了”，然后涉水而出，现在他被困住了。
1:37:28 And then the next one, and then the next one, and the next one, and the next one.
然后是下一张，然后是下一张，然后是下一张，然后是下一张。
And then, lo and behold, you now have something like La Brea where they’ve got the numbers are something absurd, like, I think they’ve got three mammoths and one ground sloth, and then it’s like a hundred dire wolves and 40 Smilodon because it’s just sucking the carnivores in.
然后，你瞧，现在有像拉布雷亚这样的地方，他们得到的数字是荒谬的，比如，我认为他们有三只猛犸象和一只地懒，然后就像一百只恐狼和 40 只剑齿虎，因为它只是把食肉动物吸进去。
Wow.
哇。
And you get these really distorted ratios.
你会得到这些真正扭曲的比率。
1:37:48 I don’t think that’s the case with the Deinonychus-Tenontosaurus stuff because there are ways that you can probably rule that out.
我认为恐爪龙-腱龙的情况并非如此，因为你可以通过多种方式排除这种可能性。
But there are probably places like this where it’s happened.
但可能有这样的地方发生过这种事。
Again, the other one is the toxin one whose n- Yeah, Cleveland-Lloyd, so it’s just coming up on your screen.
再说一遍，另一个是毒素，其n-是的，克利夫兰-劳埃德，所以它刚刚出现在你的屏幕上。
That’s another one with loads of dinosaurs.
那是另一处有大量恐龙的地方。
There’s Allosaurus.
有异特龙。
But we’ve definitely seen it with…
但我们确实见过……
I think this has come up with something like lions or wolves.
我认为这已经产生了类似狮子或狼的东西。
Like, they found loads of them dead by a lake and it turned out, or this pond.
比如，他们在一个湖边发现了很多尸体，结果发现，或者这个池塘。
And this pond had got some really nasty algal bloom toxin in it, and the interpretation was the same kind of thing, is that, like, a couple of deer were drinking.
这个池塘里有一些非常讨厌的藻华毒素，解释是同一类东西，就像是几只鹿在喝水。
1:38:31 This stuff’s toxic and kills you within minutes, keels over, dies.
这些东西有毒，几分钟内就会杀死你，然后倒地死去。
Wolf smells dead meat, comes over, starts eating it, has a drink, keels over and dies.
狼闻到了死肉的味道，走过来，开始吃它，喝了一杯酒，倒地而死。
So it’s not getting…
所以它没有得到...
You’re just dying from the toxicity rather than being physically sucked in and trapped.
你只是死于毒性，而不是身体被吸入和困住。
But the same effect can happen, and so you just end up with a pile of dead bodies.
但同样的效果也可能发生，所以你最终只会得到一堆尸体。
So, I’m pulling up some stuff here.
所以，我在这里提取一些东西。
1:38:51 First of all, shout out to Perplexity.
首先，大声喊出困惑。
Super awesome.
超级棒。
It’d be great if you fact-check some of this stuff.
如果您对其中一些内容进行事实核查，那就太好了。
So, fossil discoveries, including parallel trackways and bone beds containing multiple tyrannosaurs suggests these large predators sometimes moved and possibly hunted in groups.
因此，化石发现，包括包含多个霸王龙的平行轨道和骨床，表明这些大型掠食者有时会成群移动，并可能被猎杀。
You as a person who wrote a book about the behavior of dinosaurs.
作为一个写了一本关于恐龙行为的书的人。
Yep.
是的。
1:39:12 Let me deconstruct that almost instantly.
让我立即解构它。
So, because it’s really easy.
所以，因为这真的很容易。
My book on dinosaur behavior, this is just the kind of thing I’m talking about.
我关于恐龙行为的书，这正是我正在谈论的事情。
So, the tyrannosaur trackways of a group of tyrannosaurs is, I think, four or five tracks total.
所以，我认为一群霸王龙的霸王龙足迹总共有四到五个。
So, it’s like two from one animal, two from a second animal, and one from a third animal.
所以，就像一只动物有两个，第二只动物有两个，第三只动物有一个。
That’s not the end of the world.
那不是世界末日。
That’s somehow how trackways form.
这就是轨道的形成方式。
You know, the rock’s broken up.
你知道，岩石已经破碎了。
They stood on mud and then they didn’t, whatever.
他们站在泥巴上，然后又站不住了，无论如何。
Just to clarify, trackways means footprints of multiple, maybe steps?
澄清一下，轨道意味着多个足迹，也许是台阶？
Yeah, one of them has got a left and right, and the other two don’t.
是的，其中一个有左和右，另外两个没有。
1:39:46 It’s very fragmentary, but I have no…
内容很零散，但我没有……
That’s not a problem with the interpretation.
这不是解释的问题。
The problem is this is interpreted as a group of them moving together.
问题是这被解释为他们一群人一起移动。
Well, why?
嗯，为什么？
Because they’re going in roughly the same direction.
因为他们正朝着大致相同的方向前进。
Okay.
好的。
And they’re roughly equal sizes.
而且它们的大小大致相等。
Okay.
好的。
But, like, I’ve seen solitary animals moving in groups.
但是，就像，我见过孤独的动物成群移动。
A guy I know quite well in South Africa…
一个我在南非很熟的人......
I go to South Africa regularly for my teaching, actually, and he’s one of the big guys at South Africa National Parks, and he gives me the skinny on all kinds of weird stuff.
事实上，我定期去南非进行教学，他是南非国家公园的大人物之一，他给我提供了各种奇怪的东西。
And he was telling me a few years ago that one of his park rangers had observed leopards hunting together in a group.
几年前他告诉我，他的一位公园管理员观察到豹子成群结队地一起狩猎。
1:40:30 Now, leopards are basically not just solitary, they’re like antisocial.
现在，豹子基本上不仅是独居的，而且是反社会的。
They beat the hell out of each other if they come near each other.
如果他们靠近对方，他们就会互相殴打。
But I’ve also seen…
但我也见过……
You know, you get…
你知道，你得到...
Game trails are a thing, paths that single animals take.
游戏路径是一种东西，是单个动物所走的路径。
If a female is in heat, males will track her down and follow her.
如果雌性发情，雄性就会发现并跟随她。
So you’ll get one set of footprints, and then a couple of hours later, a male will come past, and a couple of hours later, another male will come past.
所以你会得到一组脚印，然后几个小时后，一只雄性会经过，几个小时后，另一只雄性会经过。
And now you’ve got three sets of footprints all traveling in the same direction on the same bit of path, but they live on their own.
现在你已经有了三组脚印，它们都在同一条路径上朝同一方向行进，但它们是独立存在的。
1:41:03 Let alone hunting together, which is a massive step above this.
更不用说一起狩猎了，这比这已经迈出了一大步。
And then the one I’ve talked about quite a bit in my book is spotted hyena, Crocuta crocuta, which is the one…
然后我在书中多次谈到的就是斑点鬣狗，Crocuta crocuta，就是这样的……
There’s a whole bunch of hyenas, but this is the one everyone knows.
有一大群鬣狗，但这是每个人都知道的。
They’re the big laughing hyena.
它们是大笑鬣狗。
And you can see plenty of Attenborough-type documentaries of them, seven or eight of them, or even 10 or 12 of them going into a herd and ripping apart wildebeest or zebra or whatever it is.
你可以看到很多关于它们的爱登堡式纪录片，七八只，甚至十十二只，走进牛群，撕碎角马或斑马或其他什么东西。
But actually, if you read the scientific literature, this is really rare.
但实际上，如果你阅读科学文献，这种情况确实很少见。
They mostly hunt on their own.
他们大多独自狩猎。
Now, they do live in these social clans with hierarchies and complex social interactions.
现在，他们确实生活在这些具有等级制度和复杂社会互动的社会氏族中。
They are very social animals.
它们是非常社交的动物。
1:41:42 But they mostly hunt on their own.
但他们大多自己狩猎。
So even if you find loads of trackways of them moving together or, as again, there’s one, if not two, for tyrannosaurs, where we’ve got multiple tyrannosaurs together, and that’s been argued for pack hunting.
因此，即使你发现它们有很多一起移动的轨迹，或者，再一次，对于暴龙来说，即使不是两条，也有一条，我们有多只暴龙在一起，这一直是群体狩猎的争论。
At best, that argues they might have lived together, but it doesn’t tell you whether or not they hunted together.
充其量，这表明他们可能住在一起，但它并不能告诉你他们是否一起打猎。
So, how can we make a decision one way or the other?
那么，我们如何才能以一种或另一种方式做出决定呢？
So, I mean, I tend to be ultra-conservative in this context, and I think we should probably avoid saying things that we’re not quite confident about.
所以，我的意思是，在这种情况下我倾向于极端保守，我认为我们应该避免说出我们不太有信心的话。
1:42:08 I don’t want to ever go down the, “We must have really definitive, 100% convincing evidence,” because this is paleo and we don’t have that kind of data.
我不想再说“我们必须有真正明确的、100%令人信服的证据”，因为这是古时代的事情，我们没有那种数据。
But just as I talked about with things like the predator-prey size ratio stuff, there is data we can start to use on living species about what tends to trigger hunting in groups or living in groups, and what data there might be from stuff like brain sizes or other trackways.
但正如我谈到捕食者与猎物的体型比例之类的问题一样，我们可以开始将一些数据用于生物物种，了解哪些因素会引发群体狩猎或群体生活，以及可能来自大脑大小或其他轨迹等数据。
Or again, we do have bite marks indicating prey size.
或者说，我们确实有表明猎物大小的咬痕。
If you start finding repeated attacks on big prey from relatively small predators, that would be quite convincing.
如果你开始发现相对较小的掠食者反复攻击大型猎物，那就非常令人信服了。
1:42:56 As you said, maybe we had bite marks of multiple different sizes.
正如你所说，也许我们有多种不同大小的咬痕。
Now that on its own, it comes hard, because obviously scavenging…
现在，它本身就很难了，因为显然是在拾荒……
you know, tyrannosaurs are an exception.
你知道，霸王龙是个例外。
Most dinosaurs, most carnivorous dinosaurs have pretty similarly shaped teeth.
大多数恐龙，大多数肉食性恐龙的牙齿形状非常相似。
So how easy is it to tell an adult from a juvenile from an adult from a different species that’s just a bit smaller?
那么，区分成体、幼体和体型稍小的不同物种的成体有多容易呢？
Probably pretty tricky.
可能相当棘手。
I mean, for me, I think the kind of gold standard, which I don’t think we’re ever going to find, but you never know, like, you could in theory get a trackway of something like a herbivore…
我的意思是，对我来说，我认为我们永远不会找到那种黄金标准，但你永远不知道，理论上你可以找到像食草动物这样的东西的踪迹……
with a whole bunch of carnivore tracks coming by it.
一大堆食肉动物的足迹经过它。
1:43:39 We do have a couple like this, but they don’t have what I really want to see, which is if you trace the footprints of the individual carnivores, and if A’s early on, A’s footprint goes on top of B’s, but later on B’s go on top of A’s, they must have been there at the same time because there’s no way they could have been even minutes or hours apart.
我们确实有这样的一对，但他们没有我真正想看到的，那就是如果你追踪各个食肉动物的足迹，如果A早些时候，A的足迹在B的上面，但后来B的足迹在A的上面，他们一定是同时在那里的，因为他们不可能相隔几分钟或几小时。
So if you had that, then those two must be together, or at least within sight of each other, and one’s not turning around and roaring or having a fight.
所以如果你有这个，那么这两个人一定在一起，或者至少在彼此的视线范围内，并且没有一个转身咆哮或打架。
If you can do that with seven or eight, all converging on one herbivore, and then everything goes manic, well, that’s really pretty convincing.
如果你能用七八个动物来做到这一点，所有动物都集中在一个食草动物身上，然后一切都会变得狂躁，那么，这真的非常令人信服。
It is so fascinating and awesome, like the Sherlock Holmes aspect of paleontology.
它是如此迷人和令人敬畏，就像古生物学中的福尔摩斯方面一样。
1:44:18 Like figuring out…
就像弄清楚……
because you have very little signal…
因为你的信号太弱了...
…And you have to figure out the puzzle of it from that.
……你必须从中找出其中的谜团。
And like that’s the…
就像那样……
it’s just you’re brilliant…
只是你很聪明……
You’re giving so many brilliant examples of like, yeah, if A steps on top of B and then B steps on top of A, that’s a strong signal that they were walking together.
你举了很多精彩的例子，比如，是的，如果 A 踩到 B 上面，然后 B 踩到 A 上面，这是一个强烈的信号，表明他们正在一起行走。
I am a bit of a Sherlock Holmes fan, and he references Cuvier.
我是福尔摩斯的粉丝，他提到了居维叶。
1:44:39 So Cuvier was this legendary French anatomist, Baron Cuvier.
所以居维叶就是这位传奇的法国解剖学家，居维叶男爵。
He was the first guy to posit that things went extinct, working on mammoths.
他是第一个提出生物灭绝论的人，他的研究对象是猛犸象。
And he said, “Well, there’s nothing like this alive today, so extinction happens,” which before that we didn’t really know.
他说：“好吧，今天没有这样的生物存在，所以灭绝发生了，”在此之前我们并不真正知道这一点。
And Holmes has a line about, “Just as Cuvier can restore an animal from the smallest bone, so I can restore the events from the smallest detail.” Or I…
福尔摩斯有一句名言：“正如居维叶可以从最小的骨头中恢复动物一样，我也可以从最小的细节中恢复事件。”或者我……
Damn.
该死的。
…I’m paraphrasing, but I’m not far off.
……我是在解释，但离得并不远。
Yeah, there’s truth to that.
是的，这是事实。
You, you have used an analogy that Conan Doyle specifically used for Holmes going back to paleontology.
你，你用了柯南道尔专门用福尔摩斯回到古生物学的类比。
I mean, it’s obvious.
我的意思是，这很明显。
1:45:17 It’s clear.
天气晴朗。
It’s right there, yeah.
就在那里，是的。
That’s how on the nose you are with that one.
这就是你对那个人的看法。
So, okay.
那么，好吧。
1:45:22 So basically, you clarified and showed all the things Jurassic got it wrong.
基本上，你澄清并展示了《侏罗纪》中所有错误的地方。
Yeah, we, yeah, we got off-topic before we even got onto Jurassic Park.
是的，我们，是的，我们在进入侏罗纪公园之前就已经偏离主题了。
And just velociraptor you said that the, you know, the, yeah, the size, the pack hunting, all of that.
就你所说的迅猛龙来说，你知道，是的，大小，群体狩猎，所有这些。
The pack hunting, just to round off on that, I don’t know.
群体狩猎，只是为了结束这一点，我不知道。
1:45:36 Maybe there’s actually been some more recent stuff on Deinonychus looking at things like isotopes in the teeth and feeding traces and some other stuff that’s hinting that maybe there is more going on there, which is great.
也许最近确实有一些关于恐爪龙的东西，比如牙齿中的同位素和进食痕迹，以及其他一些东西，暗示那里可能有更多的事情发生，这很棒。
I’m not anti the idea that this exists, but you absolutely get this build-up of…
我并不反对这种存在的想法，但你绝对会得到这种积累......
The idea that velociraptors are a pack hunter comes from Deinonychus, and I think the evidence from Deinonychus is really weak, in exactly the way that…
迅猛龙是群居猎手的想法来自恐爪龙，我认为恐爪龙的证据非常薄弱，就像……
Okay, lions are group hunters.
好吧，狮子是群体狩猎者。
We know they are.
我们知道他们是。
Does that mean that leopards are?
这是否意味着豹子是？
And tigers and puma?
还有老虎和美洲狮？
No.
不。
So why on Earth do you think that just because, even if Deinonychus is, that doesn’t really tell you anything about velociraptor?
那么，你究竟为什么会这么认为，即使恐爪龙是，这并不能真正告诉你有关迅猛龙的任何信息呢？
1:46:23 Group hunting has all kinds of more complicated dynamics going on than just close relatives tend to do it.
群体狩猎的动态比近亲狩猎更复杂。
You can flip that around, you know.
你可以把它反过来，你知道。
African hunting dog, wolves, things like bush dogs.
非洲猎犬、狼、丛林犬之类的东西。
There are various canids that all hunt in groups, but then you’ve got things like maned wolves, which are effectively solitary.
有各种犬科动物都会成群捕猎，但也有像鬃狼这样的动物，它们实际上是独居的。
The hyenas.
鬣狗。
Spotted hyenas are, yeah, these super social animals, but the brown hyena, the striped hyena, and the aardwolf are solitary.
是的，斑点鬣狗是超级群居动物，但棕色鬣狗、条纹鬣狗和土狼都是独居动物。
So you just can’t do group versus solitary off close relatives or anything like that.
所以你不能在近亲身边进行集体对抗或类似的事情。
I am very sure a ton of dinosaurs were aggregates, lived in groups to some degree, and I’m very sure some of them were social with complex lives and hierarchies and even pack hunting.
我非常确定大量恐龙都是聚合体，在某种程度上以群体生活，而且我非常确定其中一些恐龙具有复杂的生活和等级制度，甚至是群体狩猎。
1:47:10 Which ones?
哪些？
I have very little idea because I think the data is so sparse that we can’t really say it with any confidence for anything, in my opinion.
我对此知之甚少，因为我认为数据太稀疏了，在我看来，我们无法对任何事情充满信心地说出来。
I think that can be got at.
我认为这是可以得到的。
I think we need to start getting at it with the sort of stuff I’m talking about.
我认为我们需要从我正在谈论的事情开始解决这个问题。
Like, get a better understanding of what drives sociality in lions versus tigers versus leopards.
比如，更好地了解狮子、老虎和豹子的社交性驱动因素。
You know, relatively close relatives who overlap.
你知道，比较近的亲属有重叠。
Don’t forget, in India, leopards and tigers overlap with lions.
别忘了，在印度，豹子和老虎与狮子重叠。
The Asiatic lion is still there.
亚洲狮还在那里。
So you can talk about ecosystem structure and prey size and prey type and all this stuff.
所以你可以谈论生态系统结构、猎物大小、猎物类型等等。
We can maybe, maybe we can start piecing that together a bit better and then apply that to stuff like the track ways and the isotopes and all the rest of it.
我们也许可以，也许我们可以开始把它们更好地拼凑起来，然后将其应用到轨道、同位素和其他所有东西上。
1:47:57 Bite marks and these mass mortality sites.
咬痕和这些大规模死亡地点。
So I think it can be done, but personally, like, what were pack hunters?
所以我认为这是可以做到的，但就我个人而言，比如，群体猎人是什么？
No idea.
不知道。
I don’t think, I don’t think any of them were in the sense that I don’t think we’ve got good evidence for any of them.
我不认为，我不认为他们中的任何一个是在我认为我们没有为他们中的任何一个提供充分证据的意义上。
But there probably exists on earth definitive evidence one way or the other.
但无论怎样，地球上可能存在确实的证据。
Yeah, probably for some of them.
是的，可能对其中一些人来说。
1:48:16 I mean, it’s, I think it’s well within their scope.
我的意思是，我认为这完全在他们的范围之内。
One of the papers writing about this, ironically arguing against pack hunting in Deinonychus, said that, “Well, it’s probably not the case because you don’t really see pack hunting in birds.
一篇写到这一点的论文讽刺地反对恐爪龙的群体狩猎，它说：“嗯，情况可能并非如此，因为你并没有真正看到鸟类的群体狩猎。
And so if you don’t see it in birds, then dinosaurs being their ancestor, well, if birds can’t evolve it, then maybe dinosaurs couldn’t have evolved it.” Which I’m not sure is a great logical argument because of the complexities of social behavior anyway, but then there are a couple of birds which actively hunt in groups.
因此，如果你在鸟类身上没有看到它，那么恐龙就是它们的祖先，那么，如果鸟类不能进化出它，那么也许恐龙也无法进化出它。”我不确定这是否是一个很好的逻辑论证，因为无论如何社会行为都很复杂，但是有一些鸟会积极地成群捕猎。
Things like the giant ground hornbills.
比如巨型地犀鸟。
Ethiopia and South Africa are a really good example of that.
埃塞俄比亚和南非就是一个很好的例子。
So that point is incorrect.
所以这一点是不正确的。
1:48:57 And then we see, if not true sociality, we see cooperation in crocodilians, and we’re seeing degrees of social behavior in things like iguanas.
然后我们看到，即使不是真正的社会性，我们也看到了鳄鱼的合作，并且我们看到了鬣蜥等动物的不同程度的社会行为。
So the idea that, like, “Well, birds are super advanced, and dinosaurs can’t do it ’cause the stupid reptiles are too stupid, and therefore dinosaurs are more like them,” which isn’t quite what they’re saying, but it’s sort of the unwritten idea, “Well, we have social behavior and cooperation behavior in crocs and in lizards.” So that really gives you the impression that dinosaurs, theoretically at least, are perfectly capable of that.
因此，有人认为，“嗯，鸟类非常先进，而恐龙做不到，因为愚蠢的爬行动物太愚蠢了，因此恐龙更像它们”，这与他们所说的不完全一样，但这是一种不成文的想法，“嗯，我们在鳄鱼和蜥蜴中具有社会行为和合作行为。”所以这确实给你这样的印象：至少在理论上，恐龙完全有能力做到这一点。
So there’s pack hunting, but there’s also sociality, which is such an interesting idea.
所以有群体狩猎，但也有社交，这是一个非常有趣的想法。
1:49:31 It’s, how did they live?
是的，他们是怎么生活的？
And this is something you look at that paleontology doesn’t often touch, is like, the lives.
这是古生物学不经常触及的东西，就像生命一样。
Yeah, because, you know, animals are doing complicated things.
是的，因为，你知道，动物正在做复杂的事情。
1:49:43 So, you know, in the case of lions, a large part of this is down to territoriality in that the males ultimately are defending the territory, and that’s effectively protecting the females.
所以，你知道，就狮子而言，这很大程度上取决于领地意识，因为雄性最终是在保卫领地，而这实际上是在保护雌性。
But of course, what they’re mostly protecting them from is other males.
但当然，它们主要保护自己免受其他雄性的侵害。
So there’s a ludicrous bit of self-interest.
所以这里面有一点可笑的自利。
But that’s effectively how it’s operating as a system.
但这实际上就是它作为一个系统的运作方式。
But it could just be predatory type.
但它可能只是掠夺型的。
Cheetahs are my go-to example for this.
猎豹是我的首选例子。
So cheetahs are the weird ones compared to the other cats because females are solitary, but males are social.
因此，与其他猫科动物相比，猎豹是很奇怪的，因为雌性是独居的，而雄性是群居的。
So brothers will…
所以兄弟们会...
When, when, you know, if the female has five or six cubs, the brothers will stay together in a group, and then the girls will go off on their own.
什么时候，什么时候，你知道，如果雌性有五六只幼崽，兄弟们就会呆在一起，然后女孩们就会独自离开。
1:50:26 And if you’re the only brother or the only survivor, you will usually hook up with a gang of other males.
如果你是唯一的兄弟或唯一的幸存者，你通常会与一群其他男性勾搭。
So cheetahs are pack hunters if you’re male, and a solitary hunter if you’re female.
因此，如果你是雄性，猎豹是群居猎人，如果你是雌性，猎豹则是独行猎人。
So it’s not about territory defense or occupation for them.
因此，这与他们的领土防御或占领无关。
It’s about prey type.
这与猎物类型有关。
Is it possible to know the sex of a T-Rex or any of the other dinosaurs?
是否有可能知道霸王龙或任何其他恐龙的性别？
1:50:42 Like, what can paleontology show us?
比如，古生物学可以向我们展示什么？
So in theory, yes.
所以理论上来说，是的。
1:50:48 In practice, it’s way more complicated.
实际上，情况要复杂得多。
So unless you get very lucky, we have a handful of specimens that still have eggs inside them, instant giveaway.
因此，除非您非常幸运，否则我们有一些标本，里面仍然有鸡蛋，可以立即赠送。
But this is like two or three.
但这就像两三个。
What you can look for is both reptiles and birds have a thing called medullary bone, and when you’re laying eggs and you need a lot of calcium very quickly because of that, the eggshell goes on basically like kind of like the last minute during egg development.
你可以寻找的是爬行动物和鸟类都有一种叫做髓质骨的东西，当你产蛋并且你很快需要大量的钙时，蛋壳基本上就像鸡蛋发育过程中的最后一刻一样。
So you need a lot of calcium very quickly.
所以你很快就需要大量的钙。
So during the laying season, these animals grow this really weird kind of bone texture on big things like the femur and the humerus, like really big bones in the body.
因此，在产蛋季节，这些动物在股骨和肱骨等大物体上长出这种非常奇怪的骨骼纹理，就像体内非常大的骨头一样。
And that’s…
那是……
1:51:31 It’s got a weird texture ’cause it’s full of blood vessels, and it’s full of blood vessels so that you can basically apply a lot of blood supply to it quickly, suck up some of the calcium from that bone, take it through the system, put it on the eggs, lay your eggs.
它的质地很奇怪，因为它充满了血管，而且它充满了血管，所以你基本上可以快速地向它施加大量的血液供应，从骨头中吸收一些钙，将其带入系统，放在鸡蛋上，产下鸡蛋。
We can find that.
我们可以找到这一点。
So if you have a dinosaur bone and it’s the right kind of thing, so you can’t do it on like a finger or a claw or a bit of rib, but nice big bone, you could cut a chunk of that out, grind it down to the point that it’s virtually transparent, fraction of a millimeter thick, put it under a microscope and have a look.
所以，如果你有一块恐龙骨头，而且它是正确的东西，所以你不能像手指、爪子或肋骨那样做它，但是很好的大骨头，你可以把它切掉一块，把它磨到几乎透明的程度，厚度不到一毫米，把它放在显微镜下看一下。
And if you see the right bone texture, that’s…
如果你看到正确的骨骼纹理，那就是……
There are some exceptions, but that’s very probably medullary bone, and you have yourself a female.
有一些例外，但这很可能是髓质骨，而你自己是女性。
1:52:12 So the instant assumption is, okay, so you can tell female from male.
所以立即的假设是，好吧，所以你可以区分女性和男性。
No, we can tell laying female from everything else.
不，我们可以将产蛋雌性与其他一切区分开来。
So males won’t have medullary bone.
所以男性不会有髓骨。
Young females won’t have them.
年轻女性不会有它们。
Females outside of the breeding season won’t have it.
繁殖季节以外的雌性不会有这种情况。
Females inside the breeding season, but maybe they’ve been really sick this year, don’t have it.
处于繁殖季节的雌性，但也许今年它们病得很重，没有。
Or they laid their eggs early and now they don’t need it anymore, won’t have it.
或者他们很早就产下了蛋，现在他们不再需要它，不会再拥有它。
So occasionally, if you cut up a bone, which of course we try not to do that much, you can get the signal of medullary bone and infer that you have a female in the breeding season.
所以偶尔，如果你切一根骨头（当然我们尽量不要做那么多），你就可以得到髓骨的信号，并推断出你有一只处于繁殖季节的雌性。
But so there’s no like large bone structure differences?
但骨骼结构没有大的差异吗？
Well, maybe there is, but we haven’t seen it.
嗯，也许有，但我们还没有看到。
1:52:50 You look at things like kudu or blackbuck and all kinds of antelope or even most deer, and the males have horns or antlers and the females don’t.
你看看捻角羚或黑羚羊以及各种羚羊甚至大多数鹿，雄性有角或鹿角，而雌性则没有。
And then you look at something like Triceratops and all the ceratopsians.
然后你会看到像三角龙和所有角龙类的东西。
There’s a big clade of…
有一个很大的分支……
Oh, must be 40 species by now.
哦，现在应该有40种了。
And every single one of them has the frill and has some kind of horn somewhere.
它们中的每一个都有装饰，并且在某处有某种喇叭。
You don’t have the hornless ones or the frill-less ones in the way that we do with a lot of these.
你没有像我们很多这样的无角或无褶边的。
I’m, I’m trying to figure out ho- is there…
我，我正在试图找出那——在那里……
1:53:27 How many of the species is it obvious that there’s like, like pelvis differences, all that kind of stuff?
有多少物种明显存在诸如骨盆差异之类的东西？
So, so pelvis differences works on like humans and apes and maybe a couple of other mammals, but it’s mostly not very good because we are…
所以，骨盆差异就像人类和猿类，也许还有其他一些哺乳动物一样，但它大多不是很好，因为我们......
1:53:35 It’s because we give birth to such a gigantic baby with a gigantic head compared to our sizes that women have different pelvises to men.
正是因为我们生下了一个巨大的婴儿，其头部与我们的体型相比巨大，所以女性的骨盆与男性不同。
And then there’s size differences, like the skull is not as reliable as the pelvis.
然后还有尺寸差异，比如头骨不如骨盆可靠。
It’s, it’s not.
是是，不是。
1:53:54 And then again, you just need to look at, you know, humans are always slightly dodgy with this because of, you know, our evolutionary and cultural history.
话又说回来，你只需要看看，你知道，人类在这方面总是有点狡猾，因为你知道，我们的进化和文化历史。
But like, you know, there are population differences.
但你知道，人口存在差异。
You know, you…
你知道，你……
There are maned female lions in places.
有些地方有鬃毛雌狮。
There are maneless male lions in places.
有些地方有无鬃毛的雄狮。
Reindeer, female reindeer have antlers in winter.
驯鹿，雌性驯鹿在冬天有鹿角。
So Rudolph was a girl because every illustration of Santa and his reindeer ever, they all have antlers and that’s, that’s a female reindeer, not a male if it’s winter.
所以鲁道夫是一个女孩，因为圣诞老人和他的驯鹿的每一个插图，他们都有鹿角，也就是说，这是一只雌性驯鹿，如果是冬天，就不是雄性驯鹿。
So basically, we don’t know much about the dating and the sex lives of T-Rexes.
所以基本上，我们对霸王龙的约会和性生活知之甚少。
Well, not much, but you can make some inferences.
嗯，不多，但你可以做出一些推论。
1:54:31 So, for example, all tyrannosaurs have at least some kind of crest on the head.
例如，所有霸王龙的头上都至少有某种冠。
The early ones have like this midline crest, it, it really doesn’t work on a human.
早期的有像这个中线嵴，它，它真的对人类不起作用。
They have like a midline crest running along the top of the nose that sticks up.
它们有一个沿着鼻子顶部延伸的中线嵴。
The later ones largely don’t, but they do have this weird armored structure along those fused nasals and then they have little horns over the eyes.
后者基本上没有，但它们确实沿着融合的鼻腔有这种奇怪的装甲结构，然后它们的眼睛上有小角。
Those, as far as we can tell, don’t really have any kind of obvious mechanical function, and loads, like outside of the feathered dinosaurs, the vast majority of carnivorous dinosaurs have some kind of crestal display feature on the head.
据我们所知，这些恐龙实际上并没有任何明显的机械功能，并且像有羽毛的恐龙一样，绝大多数肉食性恐龙的头部都有某种牙冠显示特征。
When you say “display feature,” meaning for sex appeal, to attract mates?
当你说“展示特征”时，意思是性感、吸引异性？
Or something like that.
或者类似的东西。
1:55:17 So I’ve always favored the term socio-sexual selection to cover both sexual display and sexual dominance and communication, but also social ones, because those two things are hard to tell apart.
因此，我一直赞成“社会性选择”这个术语，它既涵盖性展示、性主导和交流，也涵盖社会性的，因为这两件事很难区分。
Female lions find males with darker manes sexier, but male lions find males with darker manes more intimidating.
雌狮认为鬃毛较深的雄狮更性感，但雄狮认为鬃毛较深的雄狮更令人生畏。
So one of them is sex, but one of them is social.
所以其中之一是性，但其中之一是社交。
Nice.
好的。
And then-
然后——
They’re…
他们是……
1:55:44 I mean, I guess it goes hand-in-hand, sure.
我的意思是，我想这肯定是齐头并进的。
Yeah.
是的。
It can, but then you get things like the other one I go for is black swans, these beautiful Australian birds.
可以，但你会得到像我喜欢的另一只黑天鹅，这些美丽的澳大利亚鸟类。
1:55:47 They have these really weird curly feathers on their wings.
它们的翅膀上有这些非常奇怪的卷曲羽毛。
And males and females both have them, and males prefer females with curlier feathers, and females prefer males with curlier feathers.
雄性和雌性都有，雄性更喜欢羽毛卷曲的雌性，雌性更喜欢羽毛卷曲的雄性。
There’s an obvious sexual link, but then females fight too.
有明显的性联系，但雌性也会打架。
Females fight over the best nesting spots, and the females with the curliest feathers tend to win those fights.
雌性会争夺最佳筑巢地点，而羽毛最卷曲的雌性往往会赢得这场战斗。
How does that make sense?
这有什么意义呢？
This gets into classic sexual selection theory.
这涉及经典的性选择理论。
1:56:15 It’s what’s called an honest signal.
这就是所谓的诚实信号。
You couldn’t have those curly feathers if you weren’t able to support them.
如果你不能支撑它们，你就不可能拥有那些卷曲的羽毛。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
…because they’re the primary feathers on the wings.
......因为它们是翅膀上的主要羽毛。
1:56:24 And what it actually does is it makes it harder to fly.
它实际上的作用是让飞行变得更加困难。
So you’re basically going, “Look how tough I am.
所以你基本上会说，“看看我有多坚强。
I’ve grown this big, and I can fly and carry on with my giant curly feathers because I’m really tough and I’m in good shape.” And it’s the same with the lion.
我已经长这么大了，我可以用我巨大的卷曲羽毛飞翔并继续前进，因为我真的很坚强，而且我的身体状况很好。”狮子也是如此。
The reason you get pale lions in the south is because it’s, or close to the equator, because it’s too hot.
在南方出现苍白狮子的原因是因为它位于赤道附近，或者说靠近赤道，因为它太热了。
So there’s the trade-off, because if you have a really black mane, yeah, all the males know you’re great and all the females know you’re super sexy, but you just die of overheating.
所以这是一个权衡，因为如果你有一头真正的黑色鬃毛，是的，所有的雄性都知道你很棒，所有的雌性都知道你超级性感，但你只是因为过热而死。
1:57:00 The trade-off is if the heat’s going to kill you, you’re probably better off being a bit paler and surviving in order to reproduce than you are being jet black but just dying instantly as soon as it gets hot.
代价是，如果高温要了你的命，你最好是脸色苍白一点，为了繁殖而生存，而不是一身漆黑，但一热就立即死亡。
So there’s trade-offs there.
所以这里需要权衡。
1:57:13 Okay.
好的。
Yeah, and that’s probably what’s happening with the theropods.
是的，这可能就是兽脚类恐龙的情况。
1:57:15 All the little crests and horns, Ceratosaurus, Dilophosaurus, tyrannosaurs, allosaurs have big crests over the eyes, and all kinds of others.
所有的冠和角都很小，角鼻龙、双脊龙、暴龙、异特龙的眼睛上都有大冠，还有其他各种动物。
I’ve written about this; I think this is the trade-off.
我已经写过有关此的文章；我认为这就是权衡。
You’re going for the sexiest look…
你会追求最性感的造型……
…And the sexiest look is the biggest horns or the biggest spikes and whatever’s on the head, probably also then with the brightest colors and the most display patterns, but also this gives you away to your prey.
……最性感的外观是最大的角或最大的尖刺以及头上的任何东西，可能还有最明亮的颜色和最多的显示图案，但这也会让你暴露于你的猎物。
If you’re trying to hide or you’re trying to sneak up on something, being brightly colored or having stripes or all this extra stuff on your head, you get spotted.
如果你试图隐藏或试图偷偷靠近某物，穿着鲜艳的颜色或头上有条纹或所有这些额外的东西，你就会被发现。
1:57:54 But then that’s the trade-off, if my horns are this big and this red and yellow, and I can still, whoop, I can still run those guys down and hunt them and kill them and eat them.
但这就是权衡，如果我的角这么大，这么红和黄，我仍然可以，哎呀，我仍然可以追倒那些家伙，追捕他们，杀死他们并吃掉他们。
Yeah.
是的。
…then look how great I must be.
……那么看看我一定有多棒。
1:58:08 Whereas that little guy, he’s only got weedy little crests, and they’re really dark because he’s so bad at catching stuff he doesn’t have the extra energy to grow big crests.
而那个小家伙，他只有杂草丛生的小羽冠，而且它们真的很黑，因为他不擅长捕捉东西，所以没有额外的能量来长出大羽冠。
And so, and that’s why, but when you’re a herbivore, you don’t have that pressure, particularly something like Protoceratops, but somebody like Triceratops and these guys, they’re living in big groups.
所以，这就是为什么，但是当你是食草动物时，你就没有那种压力，特别是像原角龙这样的动物，但是像三角龙这样的动物，它们生活在大群体中。
You can’t hide from a predator when you’re a group of 20 animals that are 10 tons each.
当你有 20 只重达 10 吨的动物时，你无法躲避捕食者。
So who cares?
那么谁在乎呢？
You just grow the biggest signal you can possibly grow, and lo and behold, they have giant frills and giant horns.
你只要长出你能长出的最大的信号，你瞧，它们有巨大的褶边和巨大的角。
What can you say about beauty in evolution?
对于进化中的美，你有什么想说的？
1:58:45 So something that’s maybe you can educate me, but something that’s not quite an honest signal, that’s just pure beauty, like peacock feathers?
那么，也许你可以教育我，但不是一个诚实的信号，只是纯粹的美丽，比如孔雀羽毛？
So there are things which we think operate closer to that.
所以我们认为有些事情更接近这一点。
1:58:56 These are the two classic ideas of sexual selection, and both are probably true to certain degrees in various different species.
这是性选择的两个经典观点，并且在不同的物种中都可能在一定程度上都是正确的。
One is the honest signal or the handicap hypothesis, because you’re holding yourself back whilst proving you can still do it.
一种是诚实信号或障碍假设，因为你在证明自己仍然可以做到的同时却在阻碍自己。
I ran the marathon, you know, carrying a couple of weights, you’re obviously stronger than the guy who ran the marathon without.
我跑了马拉松，你知道，带着几个负重，你显然比不负重跑马拉松的人更强壮。
And so that’s why it’s an honest signal and it’s why it’s a handicap.
这就是为什么它是一个诚实的信号，也是一个障碍。
But the other one is what’s called the “sexy sons hypothesis,” and the idea is a female might just find a male attractive for no other reason than random.
但另一个是所谓的“性感儿子假说”，这个想法是，女性可能只是因为随机而发现男性有吸引力。
1:59:35 There is some component of her brain or whatever it may be, that just looks cool.
她大脑的某些组成部分或者其他什么东西看起来很酷。
And you can actually get this as a human.
作为一个人，你实际上可以得到这个。
Like, forget human beauty, you can look at a bottle and go, “That bottle’s kind of nice, and that bottle’s kind of ugly.”
就像，忘记人类的美，你可以看着一个瓶子，然后说，“那个瓶子有点漂亮，那个瓶子有点丑。”
Where do you put, like, birds are interesting with this.
你把它放在哪里，比如，鸟类对此很感兴趣。
1:59:51 Where do you put peacock feathers?
孔雀羽毛放在哪里？
So they’re probably more handicap hypothesis because the colors that go into them and the sheer size and shape…
所以它们可能是更多的障碍假设，因为它们的颜色以及巨大的尺寸和形状......
Oh, I see.
哦，我明白了。
2:00:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
…and these things basically can’t fly.
……而且这些东西基本上不能飞。
2:00:03 They’re really vulnerable to predators.
它们真的很容易受到掠食者的攻击。
Can the handicap hypothesis explain just how beautiful peacock feathers get?
障碍假说可以解释孔雀羽毛到底有多美丽吗？
So-
所以——
Like, ’cause they go extreme with it.
就像，因为他们走极端。
So, so probably not entirely.
所以，可能不完全是这样。
2:00:14 There’s almost certainly randomness going on in there as well, and then the eye spots.
几乎可以肯定，其中也存在随机性，然后是眼点。
We know that eye spots are attractive, are probably encoded in some way.
我们知道眼斑很有吸引力，可能以某种方式编码。
But yeah, so going back to the sexy sons, the idea is females prefer something different for whatever reason, and there might actually be some reasons females prefer things that are different.
但是，是的，所以回到性感的儿子，这个想法是女性出于某种原因喜欢不同的东西，而且实际上可能有一些原因女性喜欢不同的东西。
Different usually means separate and outside, and that usually comes with variation inherently.
不同通常意味着分离和外部，这通常会带来固有的变化。
Oh, so variation is evolutionary turn-on?
哦，那么变异就是进化的开启吗？
Yeah, basically.
是的，基本上。
Wouldn’t it?
不是吗？
2:00:48 Man, you’re rolling the dice, though, aren’t you?
伙计，你是在掷骰子，不是吗？
Yeah, well, you, prob-
是的，好吧，你，可能——
Right.
对。
So, so you’ve, you’ve, you’ve got to remember, again, it’s really easy to look at that sort of thing with a human perspective where at maximum reproductive output, I think the record, there’s some obscure record, it’s something like 66 children, which is probably apocryphal for a Russian woman who had loads of triplets and quads.
所以，你，你，你必须再次记住，从人类的角度来看待这类事情真的很容易，在最大生殖输出时，我认为记录中有一些模糊的记录，比如 66 个孩子，这对于一个拥有大量三胞胎和四胞胎的俄罗斯妇女来说可能是杜撰的。
2:00:52 But, like, humans don’t have many offspring, but most animals lay dozens of eggs or hundreds of eggs or thousands of eggs at a time.
但是，就像人类没有很多后代一样，但大多数动物一次产下数十个、数百个或数千个鸡蛋。
So actually-
所以实际上——
So diversity pays off more there.
因此，多样性在那里会带来更多回报。
So diversity can pay off.
因此，多样性可以带来回报。
2:01:24 We, we think that’s probably a major part of the reason that sex evolved in the first place, is it gives you resistance to changing environment and it gives you resistance to parasites and diseases which often reproduce way faster than you do.
我们认为，这可能是性进化的一个重要原因，它使你能够抵抗不断变化的环境，并且使你能够抵抗寄生虫和疾病，这些寄生虫和疾病的繁殖速度通常比你快得多。
You know, bacteria can divide in a few hours.
你知道，细菌可以在几个小时内分裂。
We reproduce every 20 years.
我们每20年繁殖一次。
That’s quite a difference.
这是有很大不同的。
If we were all asexual clones and you’re vulnerable to some disease, you’re probably gonna get wiped out.
如果我们都是无性克隆，而你很容易感染某种疾病，那么你可能会被消灭。
Look at the, you know, Irish potato famine or something like that.
看看爱尔兰马铃薯饥荒或类似的事情。
So different may be appealing simply because it is different.
如此不同可能仅仅因为它不同而有吸引力。
It’s giving you variation.
它给你带来变化。
And there’s at least some evidence for that.
至少有一些证据可以证明这一点。
There’s swordtails.
有剑尾。
2:02:06 So anyone who keeps little fish, if anyone’s a tropical fish keeper, swordtails are really quite common little tropical fish that you can get in all kinds of aquarium shops, and they’re a very boring fish shape, but the lower lobe of their tail has a big spike on it, and that’s the name.
所以养小鱼的人，如果是热带鱼饲养者，剑尾鱼确实是很常见的热带小鱼，在各种水族店里都可以买到，而且它们的形状很无聊，但它们尾巴的下叶有一个大刺，这就是它的名字。
And they’re really close relatives of a group called the mollies which basically don’t have that.
它们实际上是莫利族的近亲，而莫利族基本上没有这一点。
And in the wild, these, these are Amazonian fish, they don’t usually encounter each other, but even if you go and get not even the domesticated form ’cause these things have been bred for, you know, decades at this point, you can go and get some wild mollies and give them a wild male swordtail and they think he’s so much better than all the male mollies.
在野外，这些是亚马逊鱼，它们通常不会遇到彼此，但即使你去得到甚至没有驯化的形式，因为这些东西已经培育了几十年，你知道，在这一点上，你可以去找一些野生莫利鱼，给它们一条野生雄性剑尾鱼，他们认为他比所有雄性莫利鱼都要好得多。
2:02:45 They will go for that one and they will preferentially mate with that one.
他们会选择那一只，并且优先与那一只交配。
We don’t know the exact mechanism, but it appears to be, he looks similar enough that I recognize it as a potential mate, but different enough that this is exciting.
我们不知道确切的机制，但看起来，他看起来足够相似，我认为它是一个潜在的伴侣，但又足够不同，这令人兴奋。
2:02:58 And then this is where the sexy sons kick in because the females are now assuming those animals are successful and they can hybridize, or maybe it’s just a male who just happens to be a little bit blue or a little bit red or whatever it may be.
然后这就是性感儿子发挥作用的地方，因为雌性现在假设这些动物是成功的，它们可以杂交，或者可能只是雄性恰好有点蓝色或有点红色或其他什么。
Well, the female offspring, the daughters, are probably going to inherit mother’s preference, “I really like red,” and the males are probably gonna have red in them because their dad had more red.
好吧，雌性后代，女儿们，可能会继承母亲的偏好，“我真的很喜欢红色，”而雄性后代可能会有红色，因为他们的父亲有更多的红色。
So guess what the next generation does?
那么猜猜下一代会做什么？
There’s more red and the females like more red, and you don’t have to come back much further and suddenly all the males are bright red.
红色更多，雌性更喜欢红色，你不必再回来太远，突然间所有雄性都变成鲜红色了。
And that’s closer to beauty than I think almost anything else would be with still a naturalistic explanation.
这比我认为的几乎任何其他仍以自然主义解释的事物更接近美。
We kind of started talking about beauty from how much social life-
我们开始谈论社交生活中的美——
Yeah, a T-rex might have.
是的，霸王龙可能有。
…a T-rex might have.
……霸王龙可能有。
2:03:47 So just to kind of take that to a place of what we know and what we don’t know, so can we kind of know something about their social life, where they lived, how they lived?
因此，只要把它带到我们知道和不知道的地方，我们就能了解他们的社交生活、他们住在哪里、他们是如何生活的吗？
So the very fact that they have these apparently socio-sexually selected signals, the, the little crest and stuff in the head…
事实上，他们有这些明显的社会性别选择的信号，那些，头上的小冠和东西……
2:04:01 So there’s a branch of sexual selection called mutual sexual selection and the black swans are an example of this.
因此，性选择的一个分支称为相互性选择，黑天鹅就是一个例子。
The classic sexual selection is yeah, your peacocks and your lions and things like this.
经典的性选择是的，你的孔雀和狮子之类的东西。
Males are bigger and more flamboyant and whatever it is and they’re doing all the competing.
雄性体型更大，更华丽，无论是什么，它们都在进行所有的竞争。
But yet mutual sexual selection, and this is really common in a whole bunch of things that people are familiar with but don’t know.
但是，相互性选择，这在人们熟悉但不知道的一大堆事情中确实很常见。
2:04:32 Loads of sea birds, starlings, the common starling that we have in Europe and has been introduced into the US, parrots, various other things, where basically males and females invest similarly in rearing the offspring.
大量的海鸟、椋鸟、欧洲常见的椋鸟、鹦鹉和其他各种动物，基本上雄性和雌性在抚养后代方面投入的精力是相似的。
And so the idea generally both with handicap and sexy son, but particularly with handicap, is the idea is the males are proving their worth.
因此，这个想法通常既有障碍又有性感的儿子，但特别是有障碍，这个想法是男性正在证明自己的价值。
They’re basically saying, “I’m the biggest, strongest, healthiest, I’ve got the best genes, I should be the father of your offspring.” They go around showing off and then mate with as many females as possible while the females then do all the work and make the nest and look after the chicks and, yeah, or rear them or give birth or whatever it may be, yada, yada, yada.
他们基本上是在说，“我是最大、最强、最健康的，我有最好的基因，我应该是你后代的父亲。”它们到处炫耀，然后与尽可能多的雌性交配，而雌性则做所有的工作，筑巢，照顾雏鸟，是的，或者抚养它们，或者生孩子或者其他什么，yada，yada，yada。
2:05:13 And so the idea with mutual sexual selection is well, what if there’s not much food around?
所以相互性选择的想法很好，如果周围没有太多食物怎么办？
Things like puffins or, you know, penguins in the Arctic where, you know, where the male sits with the egg and the female toddles off, gets food and then comes back two months later or whatever it is.
像海雀，或者北极的企鹅，雄性坐在蛋上，雌性摇摇晃晃地走开，获取食物，然后两个月后回来，或者其他什么。
On their own they can’t rear the offspring.
他们无法独自抚养后代。
They have to have a male investment.
他们必须有男性投资。
Well now, suddenly the male’s now putting loads of effort in, so the male’s now in the same position that a female would be in under the normal conditions.
现在，突然间，雄性付出了很大的努力，所以雄性现在处于与雌性在正常情况下处于相同的位置。
You don’t want to be the sexiest, toughest, biggest male and you can only mate once, all right?
你不想成为最性感、最坚强、体型最大的雄性，但你只能交配一次，好吗？
There’s, there’s various cheats, but we won’t get into that just yet.
有，有各种各样的作弊方式，但我们暂时不会讨论这个。
2:05:51 You’re only going to mate once and you’re going to put all your effort into helping rearing offspring rather than chasing down as many girls as possible.
你只会交配一次，你会尽全力帮助抚养后代，而不是追逐尽可能多的女孩。
Are you going to go for the biggest, fittest female as well or are you going to go for the small, weedy one that doesn’t look very well?
你会选择最大、最健康的雌性，还是会选择小而杂草、看起来不太好的雌性？
You go for the best one.
你会选择最好的。
Well, how do you know that?
嗯，你怎么知道的？
Well ’cause she’s got a crest as well, and so suddenly you now get mutual ornamentation just like the black swans where the males are checking out the curliest females and the females are checking out the curliest males, and you’ll see they mutually pair up.
好吧，因为她也有冠，所以突然间你会得到相互的装饰，就像黑天鹅一样，雄性正在观察最卷曲的雌性，雌性正在观察最卷曲的雄性，你会看到它们相互配对。
This is what we see with things like starlings.
这就是我们在椋鸟等动物身上看到的情况。
Males like the brightest females, females like the brightest males, they tend to form pairs.
雄性喜欢最聪明的雌性，雌性喜欢最聪明的雄性，它们往往成对。
2:06:28 The darkest and least bright ones are obviously kind of left with each other at the bottom of the pile.
最暗的和最不亮的显然都被留在了堆的底部。
They tend to pair up.
他们倾向于配对。
But it means that when you’ve got signals in both males and females like every triceratops or every tyrannosaurus, it at least hints that they’re going down this route and that they might cooperate for reproduction.
但这意味着，当你在雄性和雌性身上都收到信号时，就像每只三角龙或每只暴龙一样，它至少暗示它们正在走这条路，并且它们可能会合作繁殖。
Wow.
哇。
2:06:48 Another like weak signal that tells a powerful story.
另一个类似微弱的信号讲述了一个强有力的故事。
Yeah, and the problem is it’s compromised by lots of things, so that goes back to your earlier question about telling males from females apart.
是的，问题是它受到很多因素的影响，所以这又回到了你之前关于区分男性和女性的问题。
2:06:53 The vast majority of dinosaur species, like 90 plus percent, are known from a single specimen, and a specimen is not necessarily very complete at all.
绝大多数恐龙物种（例如 90% 以上）都是通过单个标本来了解的，而标本并不一定非常完整。
It might be a couple of bones, it might be one bone, it might be a tooth in a couple of cases.
它可能是几块骨头，也可能是一根骨头，在某些情况下可能是一颗牙齿。
The actual number where we’ve got a decent number of real whole skeletons that we can actually compare to each other, less than 10.
我们拥有相当数量的真正的完整骨骼，可以进行相互比较，实际数量不到 10 个。
Probably more like five or six.
大概五六个吧。
Can I ask you a weird question?
我可以问你一个奇怪的问题吗？
2:07:25 If you were to, let’s say, all humans died right now— …press a button, poof, gone, how much of human civilization would you be able to reconstruct from just the skeletons that are in the ground?
如果你，比方说，现在所有人类都死了——……按下一个按钮，噗的一声，消失了，你能从地下的骷髅中重建多少人类文明？
Like you just start collecting skeletons.
就像你刚刚开始收集骷髅一样。
There’s a lot of them.
有很多。
There are billions of them.
它们的数量有数十亿。
Would you be able to start telling a story, like urban centers?
你能开始讲一个故事，比如城市中心吗？
Yeah, probably, because—
是的，可能是因为——
You could probably reconstruct a lot, right?
你可能可以重建很多东西，对吗？
And if nothing else, just the, you know, superlative brain cavity will tell you quite a lot, you know.
如果不出意外的话，光是你知道的，最高级的脑腔就会告诉你很多东西。
Yeah, the intelligence.
是的，智力。
Must have been very, very smart with— …a brain that big.
一定非常非常聪明，拥有这么大的大脑。
You can probably reconstruct some of the behavior, a lot of the behavior, social behavior.
你也许可以重建一些行为，很多行为，社会行为。
2:08:05 A lot of this stuff.
很多这样的东西。
And you’re going to see stuff like, you know, it’s the famous one of…
你会看到类似的东西，你知道，这是著名的……
2:08:09 I think it was a Neanderthal.
我认为这是尼安德特人。
There was a famous question of like, “At what point do you think society exists?” And maybe one of the answer was basically this skeleton because it was someone with a properly busted leg and then it fully healed.
有一个著名的问题，比如“你认为社会在什么时候存在？”也许答案之一基本上就是这具骷髅，因为它是一个腿被适当破坏的人，然后完全愈合了。
And it’s like if that person was on their own, just dead, someone had to look after them for months to get that level of healing.
就好像那个人孤身一人，刚刚死了，就必须有人照顾他们几个月才能获得那种程度的治愈。
You only do that to someone you’re really devoted to and probably a group of people because even one person can’t look after one other person.
你只对你真正忠诚的人（可能是一群人）这样做，因为即使一个人也无法照顾另一个人。
Right, so that’s your society.
是的，这就是你们的社会。
And yet you think about the pathology of skeletons in the human race.
然而你想想人类骨骼的病理学。
How many of us have broken a bone?
我们有多少人骨折过？
2:08:56 Most adults have probably broken a couple of bones, even if it’s just a finger or a nose or something.
大多数成年人可能都骨折过几根骨头，即使只是一根手指、鼻子或其他东西。
But then you think about what medicine has done, and you would be able to see treatments of complete compound fractures of guys who survived horrific car crashes and treatments of cancer, bone cancers, and stuff like that.
但如果你想想医学做了什么，你就会看到对那些在可怕的车祸中幸存下来的人的完全复合性骨折的治疗，以及对癌症、骨癌等类似疾病的治疗。
You would see that.
你会看到的。
Well, how is that happening?
嗯，这是怎么发生的？
Either they’re magic, or they’ve got some kind of…
要么他们有魔法，要么他们有某种……
in which case they’d probably cure it instantly, or there’s some kind of technology in society supporting that change.
在这种情况下，他们可能会立即治愈它，或者社会中有某种技术支持这种改变。
That just hints at the fact that the evidence collection and the reasoning mechanisms that paleontology and archeology use are really powerful.
这只是暗示了这样一个事实：古生物学和考古学所使用的证据收集和推理机制确实非常强大。
Yeah, it is.
是的，确实如此。
And so it could be very effective even just with a small amount of data.
因此，即使只使用少量数据，它也可能非常有效。
2:09:38 I mean, you could—
我的意思是，你可以——
But it’s the right amount of data.
但这是适量的数据。
2:09:42 That’s the thing.
就是这样。
We can find dozens of skeletons that we can’t do very much with, and then the right one that…
我们可以找到几十个我们无法做太多事情的骷髅，然后找到一个合适的......
you know, things like stomach contents, that’s a super powerful bit of data, or bite marks, but it doesn’t turn up that often.
你知道，像胃内容物或咬痕这样的数据是非常强大的，但它并不经常出现。
So it’s not like you can get it off every skeleton.
所以你不可能把它从每个骷髅上取下来。
And that’s the thing, it’s the pool of data, and I think that’s what people miss.
这就是问题所在，那就是数据池，我认为这就是人们所错过的。
We as paleontologists get caught up on single superlative specimens and then try and treat them as a silver bullet almost.
作为古生物学家，我们着迷于单个最高级的标本，然后尝试将它们视为灵丹妙药。
So Microraptor, I mentioned this before, a little flying dinosaur, crow-sized, or gliding dinosaur, crow-sized thing from China.
小盗龙，我之前提到过，是一种来自中国的小型飞行恐龙，乌鸦大小，或滑翔恐龙，乌鸦大小。
2:10:22 We’ve got, oh, at least a dozen good specimens of it by now and multiple ones with stomach contents.
哦，我们现在至少有十几个良好的样本，还有多个带有胃内容物的样本。
There’s one I’ve described with a little mammal foot inside it, there’s one with a bird inside it, there’s one with a lizard inside it, and there’s one with a fish inside it.
我描述过一个里面有一只小哺乳动物的脚，一个里面有一只鸟，一个里面有一只蜥蜴，还有一个里面有一条鱼。
On their own, and this happened for at least two of the papers describing these things, it’s like, “It ate fish.
就其本身而言，至少有两篇描述这些事情的论文发生了这种情况，就像，“它吃鱼。
These are fish-eating animals.” No, that one ate one fish once.
这些是吃鱼的动物。”不，那个人曾经吃过一条鱼。
That one ate one bird once, that one ate one mammal once, and that one ate one lizard once.
那一只吃过一只鸟一次，那一只吃过一只哺乳动物一次，那一只吃过一只蜥蜴一次。
So what have we actually got here?
那么我们实际上得到了什么？
I suspect we’ve got a group of generalists and we just happen to have found them eating different things at different times.
我怀疑我们有一群多面手，我们只是碰巧发现他们在不同的时间吃不同的东西。
2:11:04 But equally, it’s also possible, at least, that, yeah, this is one of these things and it had learned to eat fish when the others hadn’t, and actually this was mostly fish eaters and the others ate whatever they could get.
但同样，也有可能，至少，是的，这是其中之一，它在其他动物还没有学会吃鱼的时候学会了吃鱼，而实际上，这主要是吃鱼的，而其他动物则吃任何他们能得到的东西。
Maybe one caught a bird up a tree in a nest, maybe one found it dead on the ground.
也许有人在树上的鸟巢里抓住了一只鸟，也许有人发现它死在地上。
You don’t really know what one of these things on its own is fascinating, but potentially misleading.
你真的不知道其中一件事情本身是令人着迷的，但可能会产生误导。
Well, the way you’re describing it now, it seems like, yes, it’s potentially misleading, but there’s…
好吧，按照你现在描述的方式，看起来，是的，这可能会产生误导，但是……
2:11:29 in your whole way of being and the way you’ve been talking about this stuff, I can see that it’s not just the direct evidence you’re mentioning.
从你的整个存在方式以及你谈论这些事情的方式来看，我可以看出这不仅仅是你提到的直接证据。
It’s like, it’s a bunch of intuitions you build up.
就像，这是你建立起来的一堆直觉。
It’s like you’re stitching together a bunch of little things.
就像你正在将一堆小东西缝合在一起。
It’s the Sherlock Holmes thing.
这是夏洛克·福尔摩斯的事情。
Not just the clearly this one piece of evidence.
不只是明确这一点证据。
It’s like, “Okay, what do I know about the general other dinosaurs that are on the Earth, what the different animals?” “How animals usually behave about this period, about the environment?” And all of that comes together and then…
就像，“好吧，我对地球上的其他恐龙了解多少，有哪些不同的动物？” “在这个时期，动物通常如何对待环境？”所有这些都聚集在一起，然后……
…Figuring out which is true.
……弄清楚哪个是真的。
And that’s so one thing I’ve definitely written about is, yeah, the independent lines of evidence.
我确实写过的一件事就是，是的，独立的证据线索。
2:12:04 Can you get stuff that is as far as possible truly independent from the other data and does it give you the same answer?
你能得到尽可能真正独立于其他数据的东西吗？它能给你同样的答案吗？
And then when it does…
然后当它发生时……
That’s powerful.
太强大了。
…that’s incredibly powerful.
……这太强大了。
2:12:23 So Spinosaurus or the spinosaurs as a whole is my go-to example for this are the guys with famous big sail back and the weird crocodile-like head, though some of them look rather different to that, and if you look across all the species and specimens that we have, incredibly fragmentary and very badly known, but they’re all basically associated with…
因此，棘龙或整个棘龙是我的首选例子，因为它们有著名的大帆背和奇怪的鳄鱼般的头部，尽管其中一些看起来与此相当不同，如果你看看我们拥有的所有物种和标本，令人难以置信的零碎和非常不为人所知，但它们基本上都与……有关。
When you look at the gestalt, you see a whole bunch of stuff for these things.
当你看格式塔时，你会看到一大堆与这些东西相关的东西。
So they do have a surprisingly crocodile-like head and crocodile-like teeth compared to every other carnivorous dinosaur, and when you do the mechanical analysis, you see they function in a very similar way.
因此，与其他肉食恐龙相比，它们确实具有令人惊讶的类似鳄鱼的头部和类似鳄鱼的牙齿，当您进行机械分析时，您会发现它们的功能非常相似。
2:13:05 And indeed, teeth, here’s a spinosaur tooth with very nearly circular cross section, really distinctive, similar to crocodiles, similar to dolphins, similar to fish-eating fish, so points to fish.
确实，牙齿，这是棘龙的牙齿，横截面非常接近圆形，非常独特，类似于鳄鱼，类似于海豚，类似于吃鱼的鱼，所以指的是鱼。
Crocodile-like head, points to fish.
鳄鱼头似，指着鱼。
Crocs eat other stuff too, but still.
鳄鱼也吃其他东西，但仍然如此。
They’re usually found in or near aquatic systems now.
它们现在通常出现在水生系统中或附近。
Fossils in general tend to turn up in aquatic systems because you’ve got to be buried to become a fossil, so water association is common, but even so that’s true.
一般来说，化石往往会出现在水生系统中，因为你必须被埋葬才能成为化石，所以与水的联系很常见，但即便如此，这也是事实。
They turn up in places where lots of other dinosaurs don’t tend to turn up, including carnivores, which suggests they’re eating something else.
它们出现在许多其他恐龙（包括食肉动物）很少出现的地方，这表明它们正在吃其他东西。
2:13:47 If you look at the isotopic signature of the teeth, often it correlates with crocodiles, fish, turtles, and stuff that lives in water, and doesn’t correlate well with other land-living dinosaurs that lived in the same time and same place.
如果你观察牙齿的同位素特征，通常它与鳄鱼、鱼、海龟和生活在水中的生物相关，而与生活在同一时间和同一地点的其他陆地恐龙没有很好的相关性。
So you put all of that together, and it’s really hard to argue…
所以你把所有这些放在一起，真的很难争论……
Oh, in addition to the tiny detail of Baryonyx, the British one was found with fish scales inside its chest cavity.
哦，除了重爪龙的微小细节外，英国的重爪龙还在胸腔内发现了鱼鳞。
So you put all of that together, and yeah, I’m not saying it only ate fish.
所以你把所有这些放在一起，是的，我并不是说它只吃鱼。
I’m sure it ate big shrimp and turtles.
我确信它吃大虾和乌龟。
And we know they were preying on terrestrial dinosaurs and pterosaurs because, again, stomach contents and teeth and stuff.
我们知道它们捕食陆生恐龙和翼龙，因为它们的胃内容物和牙齿之类的东西。
2:14:26 But fundamentally, this is an animal or a group of animals doing something different to the other carnivorous dinosaurs, and it’s probably linked to water, and it’s probably linked to fish as a predominant way of living.
但从根本上来说，这是一种动物或一群动物在做一些与其他肉食性恐龙不同的事情，它可能与水有关，也可能与鱼类作为主要生活方式有关。
We should mention that you’re working on a book o- out in early 2026?
我们应该提一下，您正在写一本书，将于 2026 年初出版？
So in the UK it will be out in November.
所以在英国它将在十一月上市。
2:14:42 In North America, January or February 2026.
在北美，2026 年 1 月或 2 月。
It’s called Spinosaur Tales: The Biology and Ecology of the Spinosaurus.
这本书的名字叫《棘龙故事：棘龙的生物学和生态学》。
Written with Mark Witton, who did that picture.
与拍摄该片的马克·威顿 (Mark Witton) 共同撰写。
It’s a beautiful creature.
这是一种美丽的生物。
Which I think is in there.
我认为就在那里。
2:14:55 He, Mark’s done a ton of new artwork.
他，马克创作了大量新艺术作品。
He helped write the book, but he’s also the artist.
他帮助写了这本书，但他也是艺术家。
I mean, can you describe a little bit more about this creature?
我的意思是，你能多描述一下这个生物吗？
2:15:02 There’s a bunch of stuff like what you just mentioned.
像你刚才提到的这样的事情还有很多。
There’s some debate.
有一些争论。
Is it, is it…
是吗，是吗……
To what degree is it aquatic?
水生到什么程度呢？
So what, what…
那又怎样，怎样……
Not very, is my take.
我的看法是，不太好。
So, does it live in the water?
那么，它是生活在水里的吗？
2:15:14 Does it…
难道……
Yeah.
是的。
2:15:17 So I think it’s basically a big wader.
所以我认为这基本上是一个大涉水者。
It’s a poor analogy, but it’s a very weird, giant stork.
这是一个糟糕的比喻，但它是一只非常奇怪的巨型鹳。
Oh, got it.
哦，明白了。
Or heron.
或者苍鹭。
Was giant.
是巨大的。
Yeah.
是的。
2:15:26 So potentially bigger than T-Rex, linearly, not in mass.
因此可能比霸王龙更大，只是线性方面，而不是质量方面。
Again, really quite narrow chest versus that T-Rex barrel.
再说一遍，与霸王龙的枪管相比，胸部确实相当窄。
But potentially 15 meters long, so bigger than any T-Rex we’ve found, at least in terms of length.
但可能有 15 米长，比我们发现的任何霸王龙都要大，至少就长度而言。
Can you describe what it looks like?
你能描述一下它是什么样子吗？
2:15:40 I mean, there are some iconic features to it, right?
我的意思是，它有一些标志性的特征，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
2:15:44 So this really quite long head with a kind of wavy jawline.
所以这个头真的很长，下巴呈波浪形。
Animals have…
动物有……
You know, most carnivores have straight jaws.
你知道，大多数食肉动物的下巴都是直的。
This one has a somewhat wiggly jawline.
这个人的下巴线有点扭曲。
It really narrows at the front and then opens up again into a little, it’s called a rosette.
它的前面确实变窄，然后又打开一点，这被称为玫瑰花结。
So you’ve got a little semicircle, and then a dip, and then the jaws go back, and then the teeth line waves up and down.
所以你有一个小半圆，然后倾斜，然后下巴向后退，然后牙齿线上下波动。
These really conical teeth, which doesn’t sound very exciting, but it makes them different to every other carnivorous dinosaur.
这些真正的圆锥形牙齿，听起来不太令人兴奋，但这使它们与其他肉食恐龙不同。
No other thing has a conical tooth, which is a classic fish thing, or at least biting hold of something that wriggles.
没有其他东西有圆锥形的牙齿，这是典型的鱼类特征，或者至少能咬住蠕动的东西。
The nostrils are not at the tip of the nose.
鼻孔不在鼻尖。
They’re pushed back, at least somewhat.
他们被推迟了，至少有所推迟。
2:16:28 It has a bunch of crests on the head.
它的头上有一堆冠。
It’s got quite a long neck.
它有一个相当长的脖子。
Spinosaurus and at least a couple of the other closest relatives to it, a thing called Ichthyovenator from…
棘龙和至少其他几个与它最亲近的亲戚，一种叫做鱼猎龙的东西，来自……
I can’t remember if it’s Thailand or Laos.
我不记得是泰国还是老挝。
I think it’s Laos.
我认为是老挝。
Has this giant elongated bit to the top of the vertebrae, and so it gives it this giant sail along the back.
椎骨顶部有一个巨大的细长部分，因此它在背部有一个巨大的帆。
Spinosaurus, at least, possibly Ichthyovenator, probably not any of the others, then has this weird, thin, newt-like expanse to the top of the tail, giving it a kind of like a giant oar paddle appearance.
至少，棘龙，可能是鱼猎龙，可能不是其他任何龙，然后在尾巴顶部有这种奇怪的、薄的、像蝾螈一样的扩展，使它看起来像一个巨大的桨桨。
Mostly they have very large arms with giant claws on the hands.
它们大多有非常大的手臂，手上有巨大的爪子。
And Spinosaurus, at least, appears to have really quite short legs, but the others don’t.
至少棘龙的腿看起来确实很短，但其他恐龙则不然。
But again…
但又……
2:17:13 So Spinosaurus is totally iconic, but if you look at something like Baryonyx from the UK or Suchomimus from Niger, it’s still got the same head, it’s still got the same neck, it’s still got the same arms, but it doesn’t have this sail, and it doesn’t have this tail, and it probably doesn’t have short legs.
所以棘龙完全是标志性的，但如果你看看像英国的重爪龙或尼日尔的苏科米姆斯这样的东西，它仍然有相同的头，仍然有相同的脖子，仍然有相同的手臂，但它没有这个帆，没有这个尾巴，而且它可能没有短腿。
So Spinosaurus is a super weird and exaggerated version of what was already a kind of super weird group of theropods.
所以棘龙是一个超级怪异和夸张的版本，它已经是一种超级怪异的兽脚类恐龙了。
So Spinosaurus is properly strange.
所以棘龙确实很奇怪。
And then, as you kind of hinted at, super controversial as well, because various papers have claimed it’s a diver or a really good swimmer, and I think the evidence for that is very weak at best.
然后，正如你所暗示的那样，这也非常有争议，因为各种报纸都声称它是一名潜水员或一名非常优秀的游泳运动员，我认为这方面的证据充其量是非常薄弱的。
So your book is going to be…
所以你的书将会是……
2:17:55 You’re going to start some shit with your book.
你要开始写你的书了。
It’s going to be all controversial.
这都会引起争议。
I think…
我认为……
2:17:59 I think I already have, to be honest.
老实说，我想我已经有了。
I’ve written three major papers, and one in particular with my colleague, Tom Holt, where we frankly savaged the idea that it’s a good swimmer.
我已经写了三篇重要论文，其中一篇是与我的同事汤姆·霍尔特（Tom Holt）合作的，其中我们坦率地抨击了“它是一名优秀游泳运动员”的观点。
And then…
然后……
Oh.
哦。
…other people have since, including actually some of the authors who were on the original paper claiming it did swim well, have now effectively reversed their position and said it didn’t.
……此后其他人，包括实际上在原始论文中声称它确实游得很好的一些作者，现在实际上已经改变了他们的立场，说它游得不好。
So the Jurassic Park 3 fight between the two— …who’s famous.
所以《侏罗纪公园 3》中两人之间的战斗——……谁更有名。
2:18:22 In a real life encounter, who wins?
在现实生活中，谁会获胜？
So probably still T-Rex.
所以可能仍然是霸王龙。
2:18:28 I mean, the Jurassic Park Spinosaurus was pretty good for its time because some of the stuff that I’ve just talked about, particularly…
我的意思是，《侏罗纪公园棘龙》在当时来说相当不错，因为我刚才谈到的一些内容，特别是……
The short legs were suggested way back in 1910, 1912, but it was really uncertain.
早在 1910 年、1912 年就有人提出过短腿的建议，但当时还不确定。
Now it appears to be more likely the case than not.
现在看来，情况确实如此。
The tail was unknown at this point, so it was just given a very generic tail.
此时尾巴是未知的，所以它只是被赋予了一个非常通用的尾巴。
But the crocodile-like head is pretty good.
不过鳄鱼头还是不错的。
The neck’s a bit short.
脖子有点短。
The sail is a bit too…
帆有点太……
It’s almost just like a semicircle stuck on the back, and it’s a bit more complicated than that.
它几乎就像一个半圆粘在背面，而且比这更复杂一点。
But personally, I’m quite a big fan of the Jurassic Park 3 Spinosaurus.
但就我个人而言，我是侏罗纪公园3棘龙的忠实粉丝。
I think for its era, it’s really quite good.
我觉得对于它的时代来说，确实是相当不错了。
It is massive.
它是巨大的。
So there is this…
所以就有了这个……
2:19:13 They’re from, I’m going to say Morocco, because Spinosaurus is found throughout North Africa, Morocco, Algeria, Egypt.
我想说它们来自摩洛哥，因为棘龙遍布北非、摩洛哥、阿尔及利亚、埃及。
There’s a massive pair of jaws or snout that’s in a collection in Milan that’s absolutely outsized.
米兰的一个收藏品中有一对巨大的下巴或鼻子，绝对是超大的。
It’s an absolute giant.
这是一个绝对的巨人。
And that points to a truly monumentally sized Spinosaurus, which is where all these upper estimates of 15-plus meters come from, is just this one set of jaws.
这表明棘龙的体型确实巨大，而这正是所有这些 15 多米的上限估计值的来源，而这正是棘龙的一组下颌。
But yeah, it’s about right, but it’s just a bit too muscly and a bit too bulky.
但是，是的，它差不多是对的，但它有点太肌肉化了，有点太笨重了。
But in gross appearance, it’s pretty good.
但从整体外观来看，还是很不错的。
Does it have a chance against a T-Rex?
它有机会对抗霸王龙吗？
No.
不。
2:19:49 Because it’s got this unbelievably long, thin jaw, which whilst much stronger than something like Baryonyx, is fundamentally not that strong.
因为它有令人难以置信的又长又薄的下巴，虽然比重爪龙之类的东西要强大得多，但从根本上来说并没有那么强大。
The jaws are very long and thin, and then the teeth are…
下巴又长又薄，然后牙齿……
Yeah.
是的。
They’re big, but they’re not…
它们很大，但它们不是……
big, big.
大，大。
You know, it grabs the T-Rex neck and then snaps it.
你知道，它抓住霸王龙的脖子，然后折断它。
Well, Spinosaurus actually, its neck is really strong going up and down and is very weak rotating or going side to side.
事实上，棘龙的颈部上下移动非常有力，而旋转或左右移动则非常无力。
So it’s got the weakest possible neck to rotate and snap the T-Rex, and then T-Rex has got the strongest neck of anything.
所以它有最弱的脖子来旋转和折断霸王龙，然后霸王龙有最强的脖子。
So you’ve got the weakest jaw with the weakest spin versus the strongest neck.
因此，你的下巴最弱，旋转最弱，而颈部最强。
So no, I don’t buy it.
所以不，我不买。
So that brings it back to the topic we touched on a little bit.
这又回到了我们刚才提到的主题。
2:20:37 What are …
什么是……
You’ve mentioned a bunch of the stuff that the Jurassic Park- …
你提到了侏罗纪公园里的一堆东西——……
series gets wrong.
系列出错了。
Maybe you could speak to more things, but also, what does it get right?
也许你可以谈论更多的事情，但是，什么是正确的？
So a lot of very, in some level, generic, but quite important things it gets right.
因此，在某种程度上，很多非常通用但非常重要的事情都是正确的。
2:20:49 T-Rex is about the right size and shape and is massive, and you don’t actually see it run.
霸王龙的大小和形状都差不多，而且很大，你实际上看不到它奔跑。
You see it power walk.
你看它力量行走。
If you watch the Jeep chase again, you’ll see it only ever has one foot on the ground.
如果你再看一下吉普车的追逐，你会发现它只有一只脚踩在地上。
2:21:07 The weird thing for me is how much some of them vary.
对我来说，奇怪的是其中一些差异有多大。
So, like, I’m a big pterosaur guy.
所以，就像，我是一个大翼龙家伙。
I do lots of work on pterosaurs, the flying reptiles.
我对翼龙（一种飞行的爬行动物）做了很多研究。
The Pteranodons in Jurassic Park Two: The Lost World, you see them very, very briefly in one of the last shots, and they’re okay, but they’re not great, but it’s clearly a bit of a throwaway shot.
《侏罗纪公园2：失落的世界》中的无齿翼龙，你在最后一个镜头中非常非常短暂地看到它们，它们还不错，但并不出色，但这显然是一个一次性的镜头。
The ones in Jurassic Park Three, I think, are mostly excellent.
我认为《侏罗纪公园3》中的大部分都非常出色。
Really, really good.
真的，真的很好。
And then the ones in Jurassic World are terrible, like a massive regression.
然后《侏罗纪世界》里的那些就很可怕了，就像大规模的倒退。
There’s loads and loads of details that are right in JP3 that are completely wrong in Jurassic World, and you’re like, “Why did you take a really good model and make it much, much worse and less accurate?” I don’t understand.
有很多细节在《JP3》中是正确的，但在《侏罗纪世界》中却是完全错误的，你会想，“为什么你采用了一个非常好的模型，却把它做得更糟、更不准确？”我不明白。
And again, it’s fiction.
再说一遍，这是虚构的。
At one level, who cares?
在某种程度上，谁在乎呢？
2:21:53 But as you said, I don’t think…
但正如你所说，我不认为……
See, the weird thing for me is, I don’t think it would affect how they’re perceived by the public.
你看，对我来说奇怪的是，我认为这不会影响公众对他们的看法。
Some things I get, like, for example, in Jurassic World, the Pteranodons pick people up with their feet and fly off with them.
我得到的一些东西，例如，在《侏罗纪世界》中，无齿翼龙用脚把人抱起来，然后带着他们飞走。
Pteranodon’s feet don’t work like that.
无齿翼龙的脚不是这样工作的。
It would never be able to do that, and it would never have the lift.
它永远无法做到这一点，也永远不会有电梯。
But I get for dramatic purposes, you might want to show that.
但我出于戏剧性的目的，你可能想展示这一点。
Okay, fine.
好吧，好吧。
This is your big sequence.
这是你的大序列。
You need that.
你需要那个。
But for the rest of the animal, it’s weirdly inaccurate, and I don’t think the public would know, and they might well care if it was much more accurate, and I don’t think it would be any harder to make it accurate than to make it inaccurate.
但对于动物的其他部分来说，它非常不准确，我认为公众不会知道，他们可能会关心它是否更准确，而且我认为让它准确并不比让它不准确更难。
2:22:43 I’ve spoken to a colleague of mine, who I won’t name, just in case I get him into trouble.
我和我的一位同事谈过，但我不愿透露他的名字，以防我给他惹上麻烦。
2:22:47 Who’s a big dinosaur nerd, but also a big creature creator and designer, and has done a whole bunch of proper Hollywood A-list movie stuff.
他是一个大恐龙书呆子，也是一个大生物创造者和设计师，并且创作了一大堆好莱坞一线电影的作品。
And I asked him about this, and I went, “Okay, but is it just easier to take the model that you’ve got and mess around with it than to…
我问了他这个问题，然后我说：“好吧，但是使用你现有的模型并进行修改是不是比……更容易？”
if I came in and said, ‘You need to fix that, and you need to fix this, you need to fix this, you need to fix that.'” And he basically went, “No, it’s about the same amount of effort.” It’s not like we don’t have the director or the producer or the lead designer going, “No, I want that arm a bit longer.
如果我进来说，‘你需要解决这个问题，你需要解决这个问题，你需要解决这个问题，你需要解决那个问题。’”他基本上说，“不，这需要付出同样的努力。”这并不是说我们没有导演、制片人或首席设计师说：“不，我想要那只手臂更长一点。
I want that tail a bit brighter.
我想要那条尾巴亮一点。
Can you add a few more bits there?
您可以在那里添加更多位吗？
I don’t like those scales.” So he said, “We’re doing that constantly anyway.”
我不喜欢那些秤。”所以他说：“无论如何，我们一直在这样做。”
2:23:27 So doing it to one set of design specs versus another set of design specs is no more hassle.
因此，相对于另一组设计规范，按照一组设计规范进行操作不再是麻烦。
In other words, he said, “It’s no harder to make it accurate than to make it inaccurate.” And it’s like, if that’s truly the case, then just make it right.
换句话说，他说，“让它准确并不比让它不准确更难。”就像，如果情况确实如此，那就改正吧。
And then you can claim a level of accuracy and engagement that you can.
然后你就可以声称你可以达到一定程度的准确性和参与度。
I mean, it’s interesting.
我的意思是，这很有趣。
There’s a thing called the Jurassic Foundation.
有一个叫做侏罗纪基金会的东西。
After the first Jurassic Park made an absolute fortune.
看完第一部《侏罗纪公园》之后，绝对发了大财。
I think it was Spielberg directly, may have been through Universal, but anyway, they set up the Jurassic Foundation, and it’s a small fund of money for research on dinosaurs and related animals, and academics can apply for it.
我认为是斯皮尔伯格直接干的，可能是通过环球公司干的，但不管怎样，他们设立了侏罗纪基金会，而且是一个小基金，用于研究恐龙和相关动物，学术界可以申请。
One of my PhD students got some money from the Jurassic Foundation.
我的一位博士生从侏罗纪基金会获得了一些资金。
Like, that’s great.
就像，那太好了。
2:24:09 He didn’t have to do that.
他不必那么做。
He went, “Paleontology’s helped give me this.
他说：“古生物学帮助我得到了这个。
I’m going to give back a bit.” And after what must be, what, 30 years now, it’s probably funded an awful lot of research, and helped young researchers get a start.
我会回馈一点。” 30 年后，它可能资助了大量的研究，并帮助年轻的研究人员起步。
So there’s a level of engagement there that I think hasn’t been in subsequent films, which you can kind of see once it goes from being a one-off to being a franchise, and it’s changed hands.
因此，我认为后续电影中没有出现过这种程度的参与，一旦它从一次性变成特许经营并且易手，你就可以看到这种程度。
I mean, how many different directors has it had now?
我的意思是，现在有多少位不同的导演？
You know, Spielberg did the first two, and then I don’t know about the next five.
你知道，斯皮尔伯格完成了前两个，然后我不知道接下来的五个。
It must be two, if not another three more people, and 30 years later, it’s all changing.
至少是两个人，甚至三个人，三十年后，一切都在改变。
Yeah, but that’s the path of creating a legendary film.
是的，但这就是创造一部传奇电影的道路。
2:24:49 The depth of accuracy, and it’s not that difficult to work, but it’s also…
准确度的深度，工作起来并不难，但也……
It does something to the whole artistic creation if you create a culture of where the details really, really matter.
如果你创造了一种注重细节的文化，那么它会对整个艺术创作产生影响。
Matter.
事情。
2:25:03 Yeah, and again, there’s some oddities, so like, Gallimimus.
是的，再说一遍，有一些奇怪的地方，比如似鸡龙。
I mentioned it earlier, so one of the ornithomimosaurs.
我之前提到过，是一种似鸟龙。
The model for Gallimimus in Jurassic World is nearly identical to that from Jurassic Park.
《侏罗纪世界》中似鸡龙的模型与《侏罗纪公园》中的模型几乎相同。
One of the differences which you can barely see on film, but I know this is true because I found it in a Jurassic World kid’s book when it came out, is a close-up of the head with an arrow to the teeth.
其中一个差异你在电影中几乎看不到，但我知道这是真的，因为我在一本《侏罗纪世界》儿童读物出版时发现了它，是头部的特写镜头，箭射向牙齿。
Gallimimus doesn’t have teeth.
似鸡龙没有牙齿。
It’s got a beak.
它有一个喙。
So someone has taken the original model and actively spent time adding teeth to an animal that didn’t have them.
因此，有人采用了原始模型，并积极花时间为没有牙齿的动物添加牙齿。
I would understand it.
我会理解的。
2:25:41 I’m not saying I agree with it, but I’d understand if it was a rule of cool, and like, “Yeah, but it would look so much better with all these gnarly big teeth and whatever.” And it’s like, you can’t even see it in the final thing.
我并不是说我同意它，但我会理解这是否是一个很酷的规则，并且就像，“是的，但是有了这些粗糙的大牙齿之类的东西，它看起来会好得多。”就像，你甚至在最后的事情中都看不到它。
They’ve got tiny little heads.
他们有小小的脑袋。
In the film, all they do is run past the camera briefly.
在影片中，他们所做的只是短暂地跑过镜头。
It’s not like they’re a big carnivore and they’re engaged in one of the big battle.
它们并不是大型食肉动物，也不是在参与一场大战。
Like, why?
比如，为什么？
Why?
为什么？
It’s not like…
这不像……
You can barely even see them.
你几乎看不到它们。
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
2:26:05 A- again, just to linger on it.
再次，只是为了停留在上面。
There is a lot of value to authenticity in all walks of life and one of them is- Accuracy.
真实性在各行各业都有很多价值，其中之一就是准确性。
When you’re talking about dinosaurs, it’s so valuable and so worthy, and it’s respectable for the long life of a film, to be accurate.
当你谈论恐龙时，它是如此有价值、如此有价值，准确地说，对于一部电影的长久生命力来说，它是值得尊敬的。
I just wish, I hope they do that.
我只是希望，我希望他们这么做。
There’s certain directors that really dogmatically push that.
有些导演确实教条地推动这一点。
Alex Garland comes to mind.
我想到了亚历克斯·加兰。
You know, he, whenever he integrates quantum computing or AI into a film…
你知道，他，每当他将量子计算或人工智能融入到电影中时……
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
2:26:36 Nolan with the black hole in Interstellar.
诺兰在《星际穿越》中的黑洞。
Ended up publishing a paper on the calculation to visualize that.
最终发表了一篇关于计算的论文以将其可视化。
I mean, that’s legendary.
我的意思是，那是传奇。
2:26:41 That’s great.
那太棒了。
That’s really…
那真是……
Exactly.
正是如此。
And you think that has nothing to do with the story, the narrative of the film, but it does.
你认为这与电影的故事、叙事无关，但事实确实如此。
2:26:44 It permeates everything.
它渗透到一切事物中。
If you get that black hole right, that…
如果你把那个黑洞弄对了，那……
…Everybody else steps up their game and really tells a story in this way that reverberates through time, and it really moves people.
......其他人都加强了他们的游戏，并以这种方式真正讲述了一个随着时间的推移而回响的故事，它确实打动了人们。
Yeah, I mean, as I say, I wish it was better.
是的，我的意思是，正如我所说，我希望它更好。
2:27:03 The only thing I’d flip it around is a joke I’ve made more than once, but just don’t take it as a documentary.
我唯一想翻转的是一个我不止一次说过的笑话，但不要把它当作一部纪录片。
No one watches James Bond and goes, “That’s how international espionage works.” You know, he’s got the laser watch and the exploding car, and he’s like, maybe treat it a bit as fiction.
没有人在观看詹姆斯·邦德电影后会说：“这就是国际间谍活动的运作方式。”你知道，他有激光手表和爆炸的汽车，他就像，也许把它当作小说。
I’ve heard from a friend of mine who worked at the Royal Tyrrell Museum, which I’ve mentioned before, in Alberta, which is an absolutely phenomenal place, and she said after the first one, genuinely, it was not common, but more than once, people were annoyed that they didn’t have the real dinosaurs out back, because they’d seen them, and they knew that the real ones were out there.
我听我的一个朋友说过，她在阿尔伯塔省的皇家泰瑞尔博物馆工作，我之前提到过，那是一个绝对非凡的地方，她在第一场展览之后说，说实话，这并不常见，但不止一次，人们对他们没有真正的恐龙感到恼火，因为他们见过它们，而且他们知道真正的恐龙就在那里。
2:27:54 Which is a testament to Industrial Light & Magic and Stan Winston, but also…
这是工业光魔和斯坦温斯顿的证明，而且……
Wow.
哇。
…slightly horrifying that anyone watched Jurassic Park and literally thought that much.
……有点可怕的是，有人看了《侏罗纪公园》并且真的这么想。
2:27:59 Also, why would you go to a museum?
还有，为什么要去博物馆？
You go to the zoo if it’s alive.
如果它还活着，你就去动物园。
There you will also meet, what is it, King Kong and Godzilla?
在那里你还会遇到，什么是金刚和哥斯拉？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
I don’t think we quite touched on this.
我认为我们还没有完全触及这一点。
2:28:12 I really want to ask you about intelligence.
我真的很想问你关于智力的问题。
What we know about…
我们所知道的……
…The intelligence of, let’s say, T-Rex.
……比如说，霸王龙的智力。
We talked about his big head.
我们谈论了他的大头。
What do we know about…
我们知道什么……
Not much.
不多。
2:28:22 There’s a T-Rex brain, or at least a very rough cast of part of one.
有一个霸王龙的大脑，或者至少是其中一部分的非常粗略的模型。
That’s the actual look of…
这才是真实的样子……
Yeah, this is…
是的，这是……
2:28:32 so dinosaurs, in fact, most reptiles — I don’t know if you can see it on the velociraptor, not really, unfortunately.
所以恐龙，事实上，大多数爬行动物——我不知道你是否能在迅猛龙身上看到它，不幸的是，不是真的。
Um…
嗯……
It’s elongated.
它被拉长了。
Yeah, but it’s more that they have…
是的，但他们拥有的更多的是……
2:28:42 we are weird in that we have a brain that basically fills the inside of our skull.
我们很奇怪，因为我们的大脑基本上充满了我们的头骨内部。
What most animals have is actually a little kind of sub-skull inside the main skull, which is called the endocast, or endocranium, and the brain is in that.
大多数动物实际上在主头骨内有一个小小的子头骨，称为内铸或颅内，大脑就在其中。
And even then, it’s not, like, full of brain because we’ve packed an awful lot of brain into a limited space, and they then have quite a lot of goo and fat and other stuff around it.
即便如此，它也不是充满了大脑，因为我们已经将大量的大脑塞进了有限的空间，然后它们周围有相当多的粘液、脂肪和其他东西。
But it means for dinosaurs, and then deep reptiles and birds in general, in the old days you could basically cut one open, but now we’ll CT scan through them, you can take an internal mold of the endocranium or the brain case, and then whatever filled that would’ve been the brain and its surrounding tissues.
但这意味着对于恐龙，以及一般的深部爬行动物和鸟类，在过去你基本上可以切开一个，但现在我们将对它们进行CT扫描，你可以制作内颅骨或脑壳的内部模型，然后无论填充什么，都是大脑及其周围组织。
2:29:33 And that’s how you get something like this.
这就是你得到这样的东西的方式。
In this case, someone literally cracked open an old skull…
在这种情况下，有人真的敲开了一个古老的头骨……
2:29:38 …and basically took an internal mold in the same way that you do an external mold for the skulls.
......基本上采用与头骨外部模具相同的方式制作内部模具。
And that tells you quite a lot about certain things.
这告诉你很多关于某些事情的信息。
So, for example, they’ve got a bulb at the front, which is the olfactory bulb — brains are very stereotyped, again, ours are super weird — so you have the olfactory bulb at the front and behind that you have the optic bulb or the optic lobe.
举个例子，它们的前面有一个灯泡，就是嗅球——大脑是非常刻板的，再说一次，我们的大脑非常奇怪——所以你的前面有一个嗅球，后面有一个视球或视叶。
So roughly how big they are will tell you roughly how much of the brain is devoted to, for example, sight and smell.
因此，它们的大致大小将告诉您大脑有多少部分用于例如视觉和嗅觉。
So if it’s a lot, it’s pretty good.
所以如果数量很多的话，那就很好了。
If there’s not much, it’s not very good.
如果数量不多，那就不太好。
That goes quite a long way already.
这已经走了很长的路了。
One thing we’ve done in the last few years is you can also get into the, it’s not shown here, it wouldn’t be part of this, but the inner ear.
过去几年我们做的一件事是，你也可以进入，这里没有显示，它不会是其中的一部分，而是内耳。
2:30:21 We can CT scan into the structure of the bony inner ear, and from that you can actually get an idea of what frequency of sounds the inner ear was structured to be pitched to.
我们可以对内耳骨结构进行 CT 扫描，从中您实际上可以了解内耳结构的声音频率。
Wow.
哇。
Which doesn’t actually tell you very much, but it’s phenomenally cool that you can do it.
这实际上并不能告诉你太多，但你能做到这一点真是太酷了。
We should say you also have quite a bit of a background in biology.
我们应该说你也有相当多的生物学背景。
2:30:37 So you’re trying to reconstruct biology from, go from paleontology to biology.
所以你试图从古生物学到生物学重建生物学。
Yeah, my go-to one-liner is, “I’m a zoologist but I work on dead stuff.” My degree was zoology.
是的，我的口头禅是，“我是一名动物学家，但我研究的是死亡的东西。”我的学位是动物学。
2:30:46 My official job title now is reader of zoology.
我现在的正式职称是动物学读者。
I teach zoology.
我教动物学。
I don’t teach paleo.
我不教旧石器时代。
So yeah, living animals was always actually my primary interest, and I kind of fell into paleo, but then I wanted to drag that with me because I’d been trained in behavior and ecology and it’s what I was most interested in, so then applying that knowledge and understanding to these animals.
所以，是的，活体动物实际上一直是我的主要兴趣，我有点陷入了旧石器时代，但后来我想把它拖到我身边，因为我接受过行为和生态学方面的培训，这是我最感兴趣的，所以然后将这些知识和理解应用到这些动物身上。
So to some degree, it is possible to reach towards the biology?
那么在某种程度上，有可能达到生物学的目的吗？
Absolutely, yeah.
绝对是的。
So with the ear, that’s interesting.
所以用耳朵来说，这很有趣。
2:31:21 The brain.
大脑。
Yeah.
是的。
So we can know something about the brain?
那么我们可以了解一些关于大脑的事情吗？
Yeah, but then when you get into intelligence is when it gets really awkward because working out exactly which bits of this are probably linked to, like, the main fundamental processing and what you’d link to actual intelligence is tough.
是的，但是当你进入智能领域时，它会变得非常尴尬，因为准确地弄清楚其中的哪些部分可能与主要的基本处理相关联，以及与实际智能相关联的内容是很困难的。
2:31:24 On top of that, we don’t really know what’s been the big challenge of the last couple of years of this question, was T-Rex and other dinosaurs super intelligent of neuron density?
最重要的是，我们真的不知道这个问题过去几年的最大挑战是什么，霸王龙和其他恐龙的神经元密度是否超级聪明？
How many basically nerve cells can you pack in per bit of volume?
每比特体积可以容纳多少个基本神经细胞？
Because birds have some weird tricks which means they get a lot more brain per volume.
因为鸟类有一些奇怪的技巧，这意味着它们每单位体积有更多的大脑。
2:31:57 Just how much of the brain case was brain and how much was, like, goop around it, we know varies, so you’re getting kind of fairly big upper and lower band.
我们知道，脑壳有多少是大脑，有多少是周围的粘液，各不相同，所以你会得到相当大的上限和下限。
And then the other big thing we always have to do is factor in size.
我们必须做的另一件大事就是考虑尺寸。
Big animals need bigger brains to operate them.
大型动物需要更大的大脑来运作它们。
So whales have really big brains, but whales weigh tens of tons.
所以鲸鱼的大脑确实很大，但鲸鱼的重量却有几十吨。
They’re not smarter than us.
他们并不比我们聪明。
So you have the classic thing is a thing called the encephalization quotient, which is at a very simple level, it is the volume of brain scaled against the size of the animal.
所以你有一个经典的东西叫做脑化商，它处于一个非常简单的水平，它是根据动物大小缩放的大脑体积。
So we have huge brains compared to how big we are, so we’re massively up the chart.
因此，与我们的体型相比，我们拥有巨大的大脑，所以我们在排行榜上名列前茅。
And then you do have a few things with, like, worms.
然后你确实有一些东西，比如蠕虫。
2:32:39 I should probably stick to vertebrates, because there’s some stupid stuff which has a surprisingly small brain for its size.
我可能应该坚持脊椎动物，因为有一些愚蠢的东西，其大脑相对其尺寸来说出奇的小。
Most things that aren’t primates, and things like crows and parrots, sit very neatly on a couple of different curves.
大多数非灵长类动物，比如乌鸦和鹦鹉，都非常整齐地坐在几条不同的曲线上。
There’s a curve for reptiles, a curve for birds, a curve for mammals, and things like this.
有爬行动物的曲线、鸟类的曲线、哺乳动物的曲线等等。
And basically that’s it.
基本上就是这样。
But also actually our understanding with mass estimates for dinosaurs is good but not great, and so you could easily be out by, you could easily be out by like 20 or 30% on the volume of the brain inside the brain case, and then you could be out by 20 or 30% on your mass estimate.
但事实上，我们对恐龙质量估计的理解是好的，但不是很好，所以你很容易就超出了脑壳内大脑体积的 20% 或 30%，然后你的质量估计也可能超出了 20% 或 30%。
2:33:19 Well now suddenly, it’s very easy to make the brain too big and the animal too light and it’s super smart, or make the brain too small and the animal too heavy and it’s super dumb.
现在突然间，很容易让大脑太大而动物太轻，它就超级聪明，或者让大脑太小，动物太重，它就超级愚蠢。
So that’s awkward, unfortunately.
不幸的是，这很尴尬。
So apparently there’s some controversial paper that suggests that T-Rex has primate-level intelligence.
显然，有一些有争议的论文表明霸王龙具有灵长类动物的智力。
Yeah, and then that was shot down within a few months by a team of paleontologists and a couple of other neurologists who really went to town on it.
是的，然后几个月内就被一组古生物学家和其他几位神经学家击落了，他们真的对此很感兴趣。
Just counting the number of…
只数数……
2:33:48 trying to estimate the number of neurons.
试图估计神经元的数量。
Yeah, it was the neuron density thing, and yeah, I’ve unsurprisingly support the revised one which was done by a whole bunch…
是的，这是神经元密度的问题，是的，毫不奇怪，我支持由一大群人完成的修订版……
2:33:52 Yeah, the Casper paper.
是的，卡斯珀论文。
I’ve spoken to Casper about it, a couple of the other authors.
我已经和卡斯珀以及其他几位作者谈过这个问题。
So they scaled down the number of neurons from three billion down to 250 million to 1.7 billion.
因此他们将神经元的数量从 30 亿减少到 2.5 亿到 17 亿。
Yeah, much, much lower.
是的，低得多、低得多。
Which is similar to crocodiles and other primates.
这与鳄鱼和其他灵长类动物相似。
Yeah, which is kind of what you’d expect.
是的，这正是你所期望的。
2:34:14 I mean a couple of other people at various times have suggested they’re really smart, and again, you know, birds have this thing of, they have this weird thing of neuron folding and they can basically pack in a lot more than you’d expect.
我的意思是，其他几个人在不同的时间都表示它们非常聪明，而且，你知道，鸟类有这种东西，它们有神经元折叠的奇怪东西，它们基本上可以容纳比你想象的更多的东西。
You know, that’s why crows are that smart despite having tiny brains, relatively even compared to their overall size.
你知道，这就是为什么乌鸦尽管大脑很小，但与它们的整体尺寸相比却很聪明。
But I’m being obviously overly facetious, but if ultimately part of your scaling is how big is the animal versus how big is its brain, that’s most of a T-Rex brain.
但我显然有点太搞笑了，但如果你衡量的最终一部分是动物有多大和它的大脑有多大，那么这就是霸王龙大脑的大部分。
It’s a fraction of the size of a chimp brain, and chimps don’t weigh seven tons.
它只是黑猩猩大脑大小的一小部分，而黑猩猩的体重不到七吨。
2:34:55 So you know it’s a kind of Hitchens like, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,” but like you just look at it and go that’s about the proportion we’d expect for a croc.
所以你知道这是希钦斯式的，“非凡的主张需要非凡的证据”，但就像你只要看看它就可以了，这就是我们对鳄鱼的预期比例。
Now crocs are smarter than people think, but they’re sure as hell not monkeys.
现在鳄鱼比人们想象的要聪明，但它们绝对不是猴子。
You’re going to have to really come up with something much more convincing than, “Oh, well if you just pack ’em in if you scale ’em this way.”
你必须想出一些比“哦，好吧，如果你以这种方式缩放它们，就把它们打包进去”更有说服力的东西。
A bit of a ridiculous question but is it possible to find evidence of tool use?
这是一个有点荒谬的问题，但是有可能找到工具使用的证据吗？
I mean, in theory, it depends how quite how you define a tool.
我的意思是，从理论上讲，这取决于您如何定义工具。
2:35:24 So, birds building nests is arguably tool use to a certain degree.
因此，鸟类筑巢在某种程度上可以说是工具的使用。
I’m aware of…
我知道……
I suspect it’s turned out not to be the case.
我怀疑事实并非如此。
I was, I was shown a very rough, not very well-prepared fossil 20 years ago now, no, 15 years ago now, where someone said, “We think this might be an early bird nest and therefore potentially even a dinosaur nest.” And nothing’s ever been published, so my guess is once they excavated it and had a good look at it, they went, “Nah, it’s nothing, really.” I mean, I guess the question is, how would you know?
20 年前，不，是 15 年前，有人向我展示了一块非常粗糙、准备不充分的化石，有人说，“我们认为这可能是一个早期的鸟巢，因此甚至可能是一个恐龙巢。”没有任何东西被出版过，所以我的猜测是，一旦他们挖掘并仔细研究它，他们就会说，“不，这真的是什么都没有。”我的意思是，我想问题是，你怎么知道？
Yeah, it would be difficult unless it’s obvious widespread primate-like—
是的，这会很困难，除非它明显像灵长类动物一样广泛存在——
Yeah, but even then, like, you know—
是的，但即便如此，就像，你知道——
—sapient-like almost.
——几乎像智慧人一样。
Chimps, you know, chimps make loads of tools, but it’s mostly made of wood and they’re mostly just breaking stuff, and then the odds of that preserving are very low.
黑猩猩，你知道，黑猩猩制造了大量的工具，但它们大多是木头制成的，而且它们大多只是破坏东西，然后保存下来的可能性非常低。
2:36:12 You do get things like chimps and otters, sea otters, you know, they have their favorite anvil and hammer stones to break stuff open, but again, the reason they picked that stone is because it’s really heavy and good at breaking oysters or breaking nuts.
你确实会得到像黑猩猩、水獭、海獭这样的东西，你知道，他们有他们最喜欢的铁砧和锤石来敲开东西，但同样，他们选择那块石头的原因是因为它真的很重并且擅长敲碎牡蛎或敲碎坚果。
It’s not going to leave, or probably not going to leave, stereotypical points on the rock, and even then you could just go, “Well, maybe it, you know, just got bashed up in a river or something.”
它不会离开，或者可能不会离开岩石上的刻板点，即便如此，你也可以说，“好吧，也许它，你知道，只是在河里或其他什么地方被撞了。”
So in your book, Uncovering Dinosaur Behavior, you kind of conclude that there’s a lot we might not know.
因此，在您的《揭示恐龙行为》一书中，您得出的结论是，有很多事情我们可能不知道。
2:36:47 What’s a particular lost behavior that we don’t know about that you think might be out there?
您认为可能存在哪些我们不知道的特定迷失行为？
Something like midden use, so a whole bunch of animals and birds who basically crap in the same spot.
就像垃圾堆一样，一大群动物和鸟类基本上在同一个地方拉屎。
2:36:58 They have their spot, and that’s where they go.
他们有自己的位置，那就是他们要去的地方。
So, rabbits do this, sloths do this, aardvarks, even things like wildebeest and zebra, uh, not zebra, impala will tend to go back to the same place every day.
所以，兔子这样做，树懒这样做，土豚，甚至牛羚和斑马之类的东西，呃，不是斑马，黑斑羚都会倾向于每天回到同一个地方。
But the fossil record of coprolites, fossilized feces and fossilized waste from dinosaurs, it exists, but it’s extremely rough because of course, this is the stuff that’s already been digested and broken down.
但是粪化石、粪便化石和恐龙化石废物的化石记录是存在的，但它非常粗糙，因为当然，这是已经被消化和分解的东西。
2:37:33 It’s already kind of gooey and broken up and doesn’t have a lot going for it.
它已经有点粘糊糊的了，而且已经破碎了，而且没有太多用处。
If they do it in water, it’s going to dissipate instantly.
如果他们在水中这样做，它会立即消散。
If it rains, it’s probably going to fall apart.
如果下雨的话，它可能会倒塌。
Things like dung beetles and flies will break it down even if it gets covered by sand or whatever from a sandstorm, it’s probably still going to compress and separate.
像粪甲虫和苍蝇这样的东西会把它分解，即使它被沙子或沙尘暴中的其他东西覆盖，它可能仍然会压缩和分离。
So, are you ever going to find it?
那么，你会找到它吗？
Maybe going back to our trackway stuff, but even if you do, what species left that?
也许回到我们的轨道上来，但即使你这样做了，什么物种留下了这些？
We know a big herbivore did this, but was it a Triceratops or was it an Ankylosaur?
我们知道大型食草动物做到了这一点，但它是三角龙还是甲龙？
Those animals are very different things doing very different things, and it would tell you different things about their behavior if we know.
这些动物是非常不同的动物，做着非常不同的事情，如果我们知道的话，它会告诉你关于它们行为的不同信息。
Yeah, so one piece of behavior I forgot to ask you about— —so T-Rex engaging in cannibalism—
是的，我忘了问你一个行为——所以霸王龙会吃人——
Yeah, almost certainly.
是的，几乎可以肯定。
2:38:19 Well, certainly, I think we’ve got a T-Rex bone with a T-Rex embedded tooth in it— …
嗯，当然，我认为我们有一块霸王龙骨头，里面嵌着一颗霸王龙牙齿——……
with o- with overgrowth.
与o-过度生长。
2:38:29 I think it’s…
我认为这是……
I want to say it’s an Albertosaur rather than T-Rex, but there is a tyrannosaur jaw in Alberta with a T-Rex tooth stuck in it.
我想说它是艾伯塔龙而不是霸王龙，但艾伯塔省有一只霸王龙的下巴，里面卡着一颗霸王龙的牙齿。
And you can pull the little tooth out and then there’s a T-Rex foot bone with these distinctive feeding traces on them.
你可以把小牙齿拔出来，然后就有了霸王龙的脚骨，上面有这些独特的进食痕迹。
And this actually goes back to that early point about T-Rex being weird, being the only big carnivore in its environment, because if this was even Mongolia at that time, but anywhere else, there’s three or four or five big carnivores.
这实际上可以追溯到早期关于霸王龙很奇怪的观点，它是其环境中唯一的大型食肉动物，因为即使是当时的蒙古，但在其他地方，也有三、四或五只大型食肉动物。
And so you find a bone and it’s chewed up by a big carnivore, we don’t know who did it.
所以你发现一根骨头，它被一个大型食肉动物嚼碎了，我们不知道是谁干的。
But when you see a big bone chewed up in a T-Rex ecosystem, well, you know, if it’s anything bigger than this, you know it was T-Rex.
但是当你看到霸王龙生态系统中的一根大骨头被咀嚼时，你知道，如果有比这更大的东西，你就知道它是霸王龙。
And so when it’s a T-Rex bone with T-Rex bite marks—
所以当它是带有霸王龙咬痕的霸王龙骨头时——
Yep, it’s pretty obvious.
是的，这很明显。
QED.
量子ED。
2:39:20 Yeah, so it must have been.
是的，一定是这样。
That’s fascinating, isn’t it?
这很有趣，不是吗？
2:39:23 That- that they would attack themselves, their own species.
那——他们会攻击自己，他们自己的物种。
Cannibalism turns up in a whole bunch of stuff, but it’s very rare as like a fairly habitual behavior.
食人行为出现在很多东西中，但它非常罕见，就像一种相当习惯的行为。
So there are several reasons you might be engaging in, or rather, teeth marks might tell various stories.
因此，您参与其中的原因可能有多种，或者更确切地说，牙印可能会讲述各种故事。
2:39:38 So it could be just fighting for dominance, right?
所以它可能只是为了争夺统治地位，对吗？
It could, but it’s unlikely, and in this case, again, we see there are loads of facial injuries in tyrannosaurs, in carnivorous dinosaurs generally, but particularly tyrannosaurs.
有可能，但不太可能，在这种情况下，我们再次看到霸王龙、一般的肉食恐龙，尤其是霸王龙，都有大量的面部损伤。
2:39:48 They have really beaten up heads.
他们真是伤透了脑筋了。
Like, half or even two-thirds of adults have scarring and facial injuries, but you see healing on it, whereas this foot does not show healing and it’s got multiple different bites.
比如，一半甚至三分之二的成年人都有疤痕和面部受伤，但你可以看到它正在愈合，而这只脚却没有显示出愈合的迹象，而且有多个不同的咬伤。
The idea that you’d bite a foot whilst fighting someone and then go back and bite that one foot again?
你会在与某人战斗时咬住一只脚，然后再回去咬那只脚吗？
That’s pretty unlikely, not impossible.
这不太可能，但并非不可能。
So, looks like it’s eating, not fighting.
所以，看起来它是在吃东西，而不是在打架。
Yeah, and they’re more like the feeding scrape traces than they are the big puncture wounds.
是的，它们更像是进食时的擦伤痕迹，而不是大的刺伤。
2:40:22 So again, not impossible but very weird for that to…
再说一次，这并非不可能，但很奇怪……
So fascinating.
太迷人了。
…occur as a fight.
……以打斗的方式发生。
2:40:29 So yeah, they’re fighting, probably quite a lot, but whether or not you actually eat something that you’ve killed or that you stumble across as a body, it definitely happens occasionally, otherwise we wouldn’t have the record of that.
所以，是的，他们在打架，可能很多次，但无论你是否真的吃了你杀死的东西或你偶然发现的尸体，这种情况肯定偶尔会发生，否则我们不会有这样的记录。
But there’s a reason carnivores often don’t eat carnivores, and particularly don’t eat their own species, which is parasitism.
但肉食动物通常不吃肉食动物，尤其是不吃自己的物种，这是有原因的，那就是寄生。
Carnivores in general are loaded with parasites because they spend their whole lives eating food which has parasites and stuff in it, and so they tend to accumulate a lot of them.
一般来说，食肉动物体内都充满了寄生虫，因为它们一生都在吃含有寄生虫之类的食物，因此它们往往会积累大量寄生虫。
What’s the one thing that’s definitely going to have the most parasites in it that can infect you as, for example, a lion?
哪一件事物中肯定含有最多的寄生虫，可以感染你，例如狮子？
2:41:11 It’s another lion that eats the exact same stuff that you do.
这是另一只狮子，吃的东西和你一模一样。
So, while it is food, and particularly if you’ve just won a big fight you might want to eat, in general, cannibalism’s pretty rare, because it’s generally not a good idea if there’s other food available.
因此，虽然它是食物，特别是如果你刚刚赢得一场大战，你可能想吃东西，但一般来说，同类相食的情况相当罕见，因为如果有其他食物可用，通常不是一个好主意。
But yeah, if you’re starving to death or, you know, the other guy ripped your leg half off and you don’t think you’re gonna walk for six weeks—not that you’d think, but you know what I mean—and now there’s a body in front of you, it’s two tons of meat.
但是，是的，如果你快要饿死了，或者，你知道，另一个人把你的腿撕掉了一半，你认为你六个星期都不能走路——不是你想的，但你知道我的意思——现在你面前有一具尸体，里面有两吨肉。
Well, maybe you should tuck in.
好吧，也许你应该塞进去。
This is so fascinating, like, once again, figuring out this puzzle.
这太令人着迷了，就像再次解开这个谜题一样。
2:41:43 And what does cannibalism tell you?
同类相食告诉你什么？
You’re piecing together the story of T-Rex: their life, their hunting life, their social life, from their evolution to their biology to their behavior.
你正在拼凑霸王龙的故事：它们的生活、狩猎生活、社交生活，从进化到生物学再到行为。
That’s so fascinating.
这太令人着迷了。
Yeah, we try to.
是的，我们尝试这样做。
2:41:59 But the thing is, it’s always getting better, which is…
但问题是，它总是在变得更好，那就是……
So that’s what I try to finish on in my book on behavior is, I felt I’d written a couple of hundred pages of, “We keep screwing this up, we’ve overstated this, I think people have misunderstood this.” You know, like the track ways stuff and like, this is not as confident as we think, you need to look at these alternate explanations.
这就是我在关于行为的书中试图结束的内容，我觉得我已经写了几百页了，“我们一直把事情搞砸，我们夸大了这一点，我认为人们误解了这一点。”你知道，就像赛道之类的东西一样，这并不像我们想象的那么自信，你需要看看这些替代的解释。
This behavior shows that that behavior probably doesn’t correlate the way you said it does, yada, yada, yada.
这种行为表明，这种行为可能与你所说的并不相关，yada，yada，yada。
And it’s like, now I feel like I’ve just written a book trashing my entire field and all my colleagues, or at least many of my colleagues.
就像，现在我觉得我刚刚写了一本书，毁掉了我的整个领域和我所有的同事，或者至少是我的许多同事。
2:42:31 But then you flip it on its head and go, “We’ve got techniques that were undreamed of 10 years ago.
但随后你又会说：“我们拥有 10 年前做梦也想不到的技术。
We’ve got data streams that were undreamed of 10 years ago.
我们拥有 10 年前做梦也想不到的数据流。
And we’ve actually got a much better understanding of living species.” And then on top of that, we’re just constantly finding new animals.
事实上，我们对生物物种有了更好的了解。”最重要的是，我们不断发现新的动物。
You know, we have not just new species, which are often, I think, a lot less important, but just new specimens of ones we know, because again, it’s building up that database.
你知道，我们不仅拥有新物种（我认为这些物种通常不那么重要），而且还拥有我们已知物种的新标本，因为它再次建立了数据库。
You know, we drifted off talking about sexual selection, but yeah, if you want to know growth, one or two animals doesn’t tell you how an animal, a species grows.
你知道，我们在谈论性选择时偏离了主题，但是，是的，如果你想了解生长，一两只动物并不能告诉你动物、物种是如何生长的。
2:43:07 50 or 100 does, and then that reveals a hell of a lot more about things like sexual dimorphism and growth rate and how vulnerable juveniles are and population structure and maybe how they’re reproducing.
50 或 100 只，然后这揭示了更多关于性别二态性和增长率、青少年的脆弱程度、人口结构以及它们的繁殖方式等方面的信息。
So I’d like to think I knocked down.
所以我想我被击倒了。
I think I knocked down a few towers that probably a few people were fond of, but I think we have the raw materials to build a much better, stronger edifice of behavior.
我想我推倒了一些可能有些人喜欢的塔，但我认为我们拥有建造一座更好、更强大的行为大厦的原材料。
But as you say, it’s always going to be based around often very piecemeal evidence and possibilities and probabilities rather than certainties.
但正如你所说，它总是基于非常零碎的证据、可能性和概率，而不是确定性。
Let’s talk about a sad topic, extinction.
我们来谈谈一个悲伤的话题：灭绝。
Yep.
是的。
How did the dinosaurs go extinct?
恐龙是怎么灭绝的？
Mostly probably pretty quickly, but it really is the answer that I think most people are now probably familiar with, which is, it’s an asteroid impact or some kind of extraterrestrial body hit just off the coast of the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico about 66 million years ago that basically atomized the asteroid, but also importantly, the bit of the ground it hit, or below the sea bed that it hit, was basically the worst kind of rock, and so it put up this enormous ash cloud.
大多数情况下可能很快，但这确实是我认为大多数人现在可能熟悉的答案，即大约 6600 万年前小行星撞击或某种外星物体撞击墨西哥尤卡坦半岛海岸，基本上使小行星原子化，但同样重要的是，它撞击的地面或撞击的海床以下基本上是最糟糕的岩石类型，因此它形成了巨大的火山灰云。
2:43:53 And basically, you have a nearly instantaneous nuclear winter.
基本上，核冬天几乎是瞬间发生的。
I mean, immediate devastation.
我的意思是，立即毁灭。
Anything immediately next to it is obviously just vaporized.
紧邻它的任何东西显然都被蒸发了。
But you know, this is the sort of thing that’s hot enough to set fire to the atmosphere.
但你知道，这种东西的温度足以点燃大气层。
2:44:40 I think the one I read was, it’s something like a piece of rock about the size of Mount Everest traveling at something like 10 times the speed of sound.
我想我读到的是，它就像一块珠穆朗玛峰大小的岩石，以大约 10 倍音速行进。
So just the momentum between that speed and mass thing is just beyond extraordinary.
因此，速度和质量之间的动量就非常非凡。
But I think what does a lot of damage is the change in the climate, and-
但我认为造成很大损害的是气候变化，而且——
Yeah, and so every…
是的，所以每个…
2:45:01 There are five recognized mass extinctions in the history of life on Earth, and all of them are ultimately some form of climate change.
地球生命史上有五次公认的大规模灭绝，所有这些最终都是某种形式的气候变化。
Whether it’s volcanic eruptions or hyper-oxygenation, or an ice age or whatever, it’s climate changing too quickly for things to adapt to.
无论是火山爆发、过度氧化、冰河时代还是其他什么，气候变化太快，生物无法适应。
And that starts, you know, that just cripples entire populations and entire species, and then if you do enough damage to enough things, you start getting ecosystem collapse.
你知道，这开始只会削弱整个种群和整个物种，然后如果你对足够多的事物造成足够大的损害，你就会开始导致生态系统崩溃。
You know, this moth has died out.
你知道，这只飞蛾已经灭绝了。
Well, it turns out that moth is the primary pollinator of this tree.
事实证明，飞蛾是这棵树的主要传粉媒介。
Well, that tree produced nuts, and that was the entire winter survival store for this squirrel.
嗯，那棵树结出坚果，这就是这只松鼠整个冬季的生存储备。
2:45:42 Well, that squirrel was the main food of this cat, and now suddenly the moth going has killed four other things and everything that’s attached to that.
嗯，那只松鼠是这只猫的主要食物，现在突然飞蛾杀死了其他四种东西以及与之相关的所有东西。
And so that’s really what did for them.
这确实对他们有用。
And sadly, the big things…
可悲的是，大事......
2:45:56 Well, everything dies, but the big things have a lot of trouble recovering.
嗯，万物都会消亡，但是大东西想要恢复却很难。
Yeah, so I mean, this is, you know, a classic example.
是的，所以我的意思是，这是一个典型的例子。
2:46:02 So, oh well, you know, what is paleontology good for?
那么，哦，你知道，古生物学有什么用呢？
Well, actually really it’s extinction, which is very relevant right now in that we have a very good handle on when you have extreme climate stress what tends to suffer more and what tends to suffer less.
嗯，实际上这就是灭绝，这与现在非常相关，因为当你面临极端气候压力时，我们可以很好地处理什么会遭受更多的影响，什么会受到较少的影响。
And as we say, big things fundamentally do.
正如我们所说，大事从根本上来说是重要的。
They require more resources, they require more area of land.
他们需要更多的资源，需要更多的土地。
You need to roam further, which means, you know, if you’re a mouse and you happen to have a little bit of land and that bit doesn’t get hit, you’re fine; whereas if you’re an elephant and you need all of this land and even a chunk of it goes wrong, well that’s probably maybe not enough for you to survive anymore.
你需要漫游得更远，这意味着，你知道，如果你是一只老鼠，并且你碰巧有一小块土地，并且那块土地没有被击中，那么你就没事;而如果你是一头大象，你需要所有这片土地，即使其中一小块出了问题，那么这可能不足以让你生存下去。
2:46:44 So yeah, big things suffer disproportionately badly from these things, and mostly as well, we think terrestrial things generally do worse than things in water because water’s a great equilibrating medium, you know, it takes ages to heat up, it takes ages to cool down.
所以，是的，大的东西受到这些东西的影响不成比例地严重，而且最重要的是，我们认为陆地上的东西通常比水中的东西更糟糕，因为水是一种很好的平衡介质，你知道，它需要很长时间才能加热，需要很长时间才能冷却。
Yes, if you live in specific coastal conditions or something, maybe you can’t travel that easily, but you know, whales can go from pole to pole quite happily, and plenty of other fish do too.
是的，如果你生活在特定的沿海条件或其他地方，也许你不能那么轻松地旅行，但你知道，鲸鱼可以非常愉快地从一个极地游到另一个极地，许多其他鱼类也这样做。
So if it’s too hot or too cold or too nasty here, you can just swim somewhere else, whereas if you’re an animal and you hit a desert or you hit a mountain range or you hit a river, you stop moving and you’re trapped and then you die.
因此，如果这里太热、太冷或太恶劣，你可以游到其他地方，而如果你是一只动物，你遇到了沙漠、山脉或河流，你就会停止移动，被困住，然后你就会死。
So dinosaurs were, yeah, the worst possible combination.
所以恐龙是，是的，最糟糕的组合。
2:47:32 They were mostly big and they were mostly on land, and yeah, it’s not really surprising they did very badly out of it.
它们大多很大，而且大部分都在陆地上，是的，它们表现得很糟糕也就不足为奇了。
And then some species did survive.
然后一些物种确实生存了下来。
2:47:39 I guess I think you’ve said that it’s very possible that some dinosaurs even survived for a time…
我想我想你说过有些恐龙很可能存活了一段时间......
Oh, w-
哦，w-
…that we might be able to discover down the line.
......我们也许能够发现。
I’d be amazed if they didn’t.
如果他们不这样做，我会感到惊讶。
2:47:51 I mean, there’s been various reports over the decades of the K-Pg or K-T extinction, the Cretaceous-Paleogene or Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction of dinosaurs surviving and none of them have held up.
我的意思是，几十年来有各种关于恐龙幸存的 K-Pg 或 K-T 灭绝、白垩纪-古近纪或白垩纪-第三纪灭绝的报道，但没有一个是成立的。
It’s usually been bio-turbation, so literally things like prairie dogs digging, and of course they’ll dig a tooth up and then move it through the layers, or things like this, or plant roots can move stuff, or just soils can get churned up.
这通常是生物扰动，所以字面上就像土拨鼠挖掘一样，当然他们会挖出一颗牙齿，然后将其移动到各层，或者类似的东西，或者植物根可以移动东西，或者只是土壤可以被搅动。
But I would be shocked if they didn’t.
但如果他们不这样做，我会感到震惊。
Not like, oh yeah, the dinosaur survived, and the Loch Ness Monster, and stuff like that, but like, yes, it was a global devastation.
不像，哦，是的，恐龙幸存下来，还有尼斯湖水怪，诸如此类的东西，而是，是的，这是一场全球性的灾难。
2:48:32 Yes, it’s what ultimately killed the dinosaurs, but I’d be amazed if there wasn’t some equivalent of Hawaii or New Zealand or some other tucked away island or valley where actually dinosaurs were fine for anything from a few hundred thousand to a couple of million years.
是的，这就是最终杀死恐龙的原因，但如果没有类似夏威夷或新西兰或其他隐藏的岛屿或山谷的地方，我会感到惊讶，在那里恐龙实际上可以生存几十万到几百万年。
But on a global scale it’s a dot on a map and the odds that we’ll ever uncover any rocks, fossiliferous rocks of that age that we then have access to that we then find a dinosaur in that we can then date properly I think is almost non-existent.
但在全球范围内，它只是地图上的一个点，我们发现任何岩石、那个时代的化石岩石，然后我们可以接触到，然后找到恐龙，然后我们可以正确测定年代，我认为这种可能性几乎不存在。
But it would just be weird if they didn’t survive somewhere for a bit, or even quite a few of them in places.
但如果他们在某个地方不能生存一段时间，或者甚至有相当多的人在某个地方生存下来，那才奇怪。
So a small, local population.
所以当地人口很少。
We see it all the time, you know, the lemurs in Madagascar, all the stuff in New Zealand.
我们经常看到马达加斯加的狐猴，新西兰的所有东西。
2:49:13 There’s tons of weird archaic stuff hanging around in Hawaii, you know, Galapagos finches and tortoises that you don’t see anywhere else.
夏威夷有大量奇怪的古老生物，你知道，加拉帕戈斯雀和陆龟是你在其他地方看不到的。
In Australia with the marsupials, they’re almost, and then the monotremes are almost unknown outside of there.
在澳大利亚，有袋类动物几乎是存在的，而单孔类动物在国外几乎不为人所知。
This is a pretty normal bit of biology.
这是很正常的生物学现象。
For animals that were so dominant globally, we know there were patches that were largely unchanged, otherwise we wouldn’t have had the mammals surviving and the crocodiles surviving and the birds surviving and newts and frogs and everything that did survive.
对于在全球占据主导地位的动物，我们知道有些地区基本上没有变化，否则我们就不会有哺乳动物、鳄鱼、鸟类、蝾螈和青蛙以及所有其他动物幸存下来。
I’m sure a few of those patches had some dinosaurs in them, but it is ultimately what killed them.
我确信其中一些补丁中有一些恐龙，但最终是它杀死了它们。
What do you think is the chance that they would have survived?
你认为他们生还的机会有多大？
2:49:56 So you take some local populations and they flourish.
所以你带了一些当地人口，他们就会蓬勃发展。
It’s happened.
它发生了。
2:50:02 Look at, look at Australia.
看看，看看澳大利亚。
You know, the marsupials have done pretty well there for a very long time.
你知道，有袋动物很长一段时间以来都在那里过得很好。
You can imagine if the next mass extinction, you know, flattens a large chunk of Indonesia, for example, kangaroos could island hop pretty easily, make it to mainland Asia.
你可以想象，如果下一次大规模灭绝，你知道，将印度尼西亚的一大片土地夷为平地，例如，袋鼠可以很容易地跳岛游，到达亚洲大陆。
But then, I mean, to then lead…
但然后，我的意思是，然后领导……
2:50:23 You take the dinosaurs…
你带着恐龙……
a small fraction survives and then they eventually repopulate the earth again.
一小部分幸存下来，然后它们最终再次重新居住在地球上。
I mean, that’s extraordinarily unlikely because once your population’s been crashed like that, you do have the problems of things like inbreeding or maybe you’re a great specialist to a certain area or you’re surviving because you’re isolated, you’re in a valley or you’re on an island and then dispersing again becomes really, or breaking out into those areas becomes much, much harder.
我的意思是，这是极不可能的，因为一旦你的人口像那样崩溃，你确实会遇到诸如近亲繁殖之类的问题，或者你可能是某个领域的伟大专家，或者你因为与世隔绝而幸存下来，你在一个山谷或你在一个岛上，然后再次分散变得真的，或者闯入这些地区变得非常非常困难。
So like the great predators like the…
所以就像伟大的掠食者一样......
2:50:53 Even though the T-rex is such a great predator, that doesn’t, that doesn’t give you…
尽管霸王龙是如此强大的掠食者，但事实并非如此，这并不能给你……
Yeah, because you still had the extinction event and the environment is no longer what it was that you evolved into.
是的，因为你仍然经历了灭绝事件，环境也不再是你进化时的样子了。
Right.
正确的。
And when once those systems start to recover, those other animals are going to adapt much better to them.
一旦这些系统开始恢复，其他动物就会更好地适应它们。
How does that make you feel that, that this stupid asteroid from nowhere?
这让你怎么感觉这个不知从何而来的愚蠢小行星？
Well, I mean, at one level I probably wouldn’t be here if it hadn’t.
嗯，我的意思是，如果没有的话，在某种程度上我可能不会在这里。
So, I mean, that’s an interesting question.
所以，我的意思是，这是一个有趣的问题。
2:51:23 I mean, do you think…
我的意思是，你认为……
There’s several ways of asking that question, but if dinosaurs didn’t go extinct, do you think humans would still be able to evolve?
提出这个问题的方式有很多种，但如果恐龙没有灭绝，你认为人类还能进化吗？
I mean, my guess is probably not.
我的意思是，我的猜测可能不是。
2:51:33 I don’t think, I don’t think it’s quite the…
我不认为，我不认为这完全是……
What, what was it?
什么，那是什么？
Oh, Simon Conway Morris had that book.
哦，西蒙·康威·莫里斯有那本书。
What was it?
那是什么？
“Inevitability of Man.” That like even if you rewound it, everything would come back.
“人的必然性。”就好像即使倒带，一切都会回来。
I’m not…
我不是……
I don’t think it’s that far.
我认为没那么远。
I certainly don’t think it’s anything like quite like the butterfly effect of, you know, if one mammal had been trodden on by one T-rex then humans would never have evolved either.
我当然不认为这与蝴蝶效应很像，你知道，如果一种哺乳动物被一只霸王龙践踏，那么人类也永远不会进化。
We should say that the ancestor of the primates or the closest…
我们应该说灵长类动物的祖先或者说最接近的......
2:52:03 There’s a lot of debate around this, it’s a kind of tiny creature, Purgatorius, that was our ancestor.
对此有很多争论，这是一种微小的生物，Purgatorius，它是我们的祖先。
Yeah, so this is us.
是的，这就是我们。
This is what we evolved from.
这就是我们进化而来的。
Yes.
是的。
2:52:17 Scandentia.
斯堪登蒂亚。
I think is the group.
我认为是团体。
Basically a rodent.
基本上是啮齿动物。
Yeah, I mean there were probably primates around in the Cretaceous.
是的，我的意思是白垩纪时期可能有灵长类动物。
2:52:21 Some of the molecular clock stuff suggests that primates were around alongside the dinosaurs, but we’ve never found any osteological evidence of that.
一些分子钟资料表明灵长类动物与恐龙并存，但我们从未发现任何骨学证据。
But yeah, there’s been a back and forth about whether dinosaurs were already on their way out or were they a bit limited by the very end of the Cretaceous.
但是，是的，关于恐龙是否已经在消失，或者它们是否受到白垩纪末期的限制，一直存在争议。
I think the more recent analyses have shown that’s probably not the case, because in other words, they were basically doing fine right up to the extinction event.
我认为最近的分析表明情况可能并非如此，因为换句话说，它们在灭绝事件之前基本上都表现得很好。
And so yeah, if the asteroid hadn’t hit, there’s no reason to think that they were on some kind of terminal decline.
所以，是的，如果小行星没有撞击，就没有理由认为它们正处于某种最终的衰退之中。
Something else may have hit.
可能有别的东西击中了。
2:53:00 There may have been, you know, some other environmental disaster or something may have happened, or maybe they’re more vulnerable to stuff than we know of, but there’s no…
你知道，可能发生了其他一些环境灾难，或者可能发生了一些事情，或者他们可能比我们知道的更容易受到某些东西的影响，但没有……
I don’t think there’s any really good reason to think they wouldn’t have carried on relatively well.
我认为没有任何充分的理由认为他们不会表现得相对好。
I mean, even post-dinosaur extinction, you had a window where the mammals and the birds were pretty competing.
我的意思是，即使在恐龙灭绝之后，哺乳动物和鸟类也有一个相当竞争的窗口。
There was a lot of big birds getting going and various big carnivorous terrestrial, kind of, hyper-predatory ostrich-like things, like the phorusrhacids.
有很多大型鸟类和各种大型陆生食肉动物，一种像鸵鸟一样的掠食性动物，比如恐鸟。
So there’s no guarantee that mammals would have even taken over post the dinosaur extinction, since initially they were in a fair bit of competition.
因此，不能保证哺乳动物会在恐龙灭绝后占据主导地位，因为它们最初处于相当激烈的竞争中。
So this is just going to…
所以这只是为了……
2:53:47 Based on current scientific understanding, human evolution would be highly improbable if dinosaurs hadn’t gone extinct 66 million years ago because dinosaurs dominated ecological niches.
根据目前的科学认识，如果恐龙没有在 6600 万年前灭绝，人类进化的可能性极小，因为恐龙在生态位中占主导地位。
For everything, basically.
基本上，对于一切。
Wide-bodied mammals.
宽体哺乳动物。
I mean, that’s the thing.
我的意思是，就是这样。
2:53:59 You look through, yeah, the Mesozoic, the late Triassic, dinosaurs are there alongside a whole bunch of other big and unusual and interesting reptiles and some other early pre-mammal-like things that are closer to mammals than the reptiles.
你看看，是的，中生代、三叠纪晚期，恐龙与一大堆其他大型、不寻常和有趣的爬行动物以及其他一些早期的前哺乳动物类似的东西一起存在，它们比爬行动物更接近哺乳动物。
But once you’ve gotten into the Jurassic, you’ve now got a solid like 120, 130 million years where almost anywhere on Earth, if you saw an animal bigger than a raccoon, it was probably a dinosaur.
但一旦你进入了侏罗纪，你现在就已经了解了 120、1.3 亿年的历史，几乎在地球上的任何地方，如果你看到一种比浣熊还大的动物，那它很可能是恐龙。
That’s how incredibly dominant they…
这就是他们令人难以置信的统治力……
You know, as dominant, if not more dominant than modern mammals.
你知道，作为占主导地位的动物，甚至比现代哺乳动物更占主导地位。
But is it fair to say that they were mostly dumb?
但可以公平地说他们大多是愚蠢的吗？
I don’t think so, because I think that comes down to A) That bit of kind of classic almost Victorian speciesism, and you get these insane hypotheses like dinosaurs as a species or as a lineage became senile so they forgot to breed.
我不这么认为，因为我认为这可以归结为A）那种经典的几乎维多利亚时代的物种歧视，你会得到这些疯狂的假设，比如恐龙作为一个物种或作为一个谱系变得衰老，所以他们忘记了繁殖。
2:54:40 I know it’s literally a suggested idea.
我知道这实际上是一个建议的想法。
You know, the mammals ate their eggs and all of this kind of stuff.
你知道，哺乳动物吃它们的蛋和所有这些东西。
Dinosaurs only lived alongside mammals for 100 million years.
恐龙只与哺乳动物一起生活了一亿年。
It’d be weird if they all went extinct at the same time because suddenly egg eating evolved.
如果它们同时灭绝，那就很奇怪了，因为吃鸡蛋的行为突然进化了。
You’ve got problems like this.
你有这样的问题。
But also, again, that general speciesism which, you know, even goes back to…
但同样，普遍的物种歧视，你知道，甚至可以追溯到……
2:55:19 Like Linnaeus and his taxonomic ranks, and even arguably stuff like Aristotle.
就像林奈和他的分类等级，甚至可以说是像亚里士多德那样的东西。
You’ve got humans are superior in some way, and we’re superior to the other mammals.
人类在某些方面是优越的，而且我们优于其他哺乳动物。
And of course, mammals are closest to us so they must be quite good.
当然，哺乳动物离我们最近，所以它们一定很优秀。
And then they’ve got to be better than lizards, and then lizards have to be better than frogs, and frogs have to be better than fish.
然后它们必须比蜥蜴更好，然后蜥蜴必须比青蛙更好，青蛙必须比鱼更好。
So that gets you into the, “Well, reptiles must be stupid.” And they’re not.
所以这会让你陷入“嗯，爬行动物一定很愚蠢。”但事实并非如此。
I wonder if a human intelligence level organism could have evolved from the dinosaurs.
我想知道人类智力水平的有机体是否可以从恐龙进化而来。
I mean, that’s been hypothesized plenty of times.
我的意思是，这已经被假设了很多次了。
2:55:52 Dale Russell, a Canadian paleontologist, the famous guy who came up with this human-like Troodontid that was done for a TV documentary.
加拿大古生物学家戴尔·拉塞尔 (Dale Russell) 是一位著名人物，他发明了这种类似人类的伤齿龙，并为一部电视纪录片制作了它。
I think the one that Christopher Reeve narrated.
我认为是克里斯托弗·里夫讲述的那个。
I think is a remake, but I’ve seen the original that Dale had made for his TV show and it’s still…
我认为是翻拍版，但我看过戴尔为他的电视节目制作的原版，它仍然......
It’s sitting in the collections of the National Museum of Nature in Ottawa, for Canada.
它现在被加拿大渥太华国家自然博物馆收藏。
It’s really, really cool.
这真的非常非常酷。
It’s like this five-foot tall dinosauroid.
就像这个五英尺高的恐龙。
That was it there on the screen.
屏幕上就是这样。
“Model of the hypothetical dinosauroid and display at the dinosaur museum in Dorchester.”
“假想的类恐龙模型并在多切斯特恐龙博物馆展出。”
Oh, Dorchester.
哦，多切斯特。
2:56:27 That’s in England.
那是在英国。
Yeah, I knew there were a couple of copies of it.
是的，我知道有几本。
Troodon always comes back as the most intelligent dinosaur because it has really quite a big brain for its size.
伤齿龙总是被认为是最聪明的恐龙，因为相对于它的体型来说，它的大脑确实相当大。
It does have a high encephalization quotient, so it’s always been tagged as a very good candidate for being the smartest dinosaur.
它确实具有很高的脑商，因此它一直被标记为最聪明恐龙的最佳候选者。
And basically, he just hybridized that with a human.
基本上，他只是将其与人类杂交。
But of course, why would these things end up as plantigrade quadrupeds, and why would they go back to five fingers and…
但是当然，为什么这些东西最终会变成跖行四足动物，为什么它们会回到五个手指……
Actually, I think he’s only got three, to be fair, but he’s got very human-like feet.
事实上，公平地说，我认为他只有三只脚，但他的脚非常像人类。
Why has it got no tail?
为什么它没有尾巴？
Why would those things suddenly disappear?
为什么那些东西会突然消失？
There’s no real reason other than just kind of human exceptionalism.
除了人类例外论之外，没有任何真正的原因。
2:57:03 But like, I mean, you could argue some parrots, some crows are phenomenally intelligent and show extremely clever behaviors on a par with apes.
但就像，我的意思是，你可能会争论一些鹦鹉，一些乌鸦非常聪明，并且表现出与猿一样的极其聪明的行为。
So at some level, some dinosaurs were extremely intelligent.
所以在某种程度上，一些恐龙非常聪明。
I mean, yeah, this is a whole other conversation, but all the tiny details that lead to the explosion that is, in our evolutionary tree, that is Homo sapiens.
我的意思是，是的，这是一个完全不同的对话，但所有导致爆炸的微小细节，在我们的进化树中，就是智人。
2:57:21 Like what is it?
比如它是什么？
Opposable thumbs, right?
对生拇指，对吗？
Is it the invention of fire and the meat-eating?
是火和食肉的发明吗？
Is it…
难道是……
…
……
Is it some other-
难道还有别的——
And fight, and sociality, and…
还有战斗、社交、还有……
So many-
这么多——
…predation pressure, and then the changing, changing environment.
......捕食压力，然后是不断变化的环境。
2:57:39 I mean, the shrinking of the forest, pushing apes out of the trees into the open environment.
我的意思是，森林的萎缩，将猿类从树林中赶到了开放的环境中。
And probably the same kind of story could be told about the dinosaurs or about, about anything really.
也许同样类型的故事可以讲述关于恐龙或关于任何真正的事情。
Yeah, I mean, you, you-
是的，我是说，你，你——
There’s no reason-
没有理由——
I mean, if you have 160 million years and a global domination.
我的意思是，如果你有 1.6 亿年和全球统治权。
2:57:53 But I mean, this is the thing.
但我的意思是，事情就是这样。
You talked about lost behaviors, but like the lost lineages.
你谈到了失去的行为，但就像失去的血统一样。
I wrote about this in one of my books, and like, you want to find a weird animal, you go to a volcanic island.
我在我的一本书中写到了这一点，就像，你想找到一种奇怪的动物，你就去一座火山岛。
Like, you go to New Zealand, you go to Hawaii, you go to the Galapagos, and yet those are the places that basically don’t really form fossils.
比如，你去新西兰、夏威夷、加拉帕戈斯群岛，但这些地方基本上不会真正形成化石。
So you think the dinosaurs we know about are strange.
所以你认为我们所知道的恐龙很奇怪。
What was the stuff knocking around there?
那里有什么东西在敲击？
We’re never gonna know, sadly.
可悲的是，我们永远不会知道。
But for everything you think’s weird, you know, you think birds are cool.
但对于你认为奇怪的一切，你知道，你认为鸟类很酷。
Think about penguins compared to your average bird.
考虑一下企鹅与普通鸟类的比较。
2:58:34 They live on an ice shelf for six months of the year and can’t fly, and massively modified skeletons, and, you know, compared to your average bird, penguins are unbelievably weird.
它们一年中有六个月生活在冰架上，不能飞，而且骨骼经过大规模改造，而且，你知道，与普通鸟类相比，企鹅是令人难以置信的奇怪。
So yeah, take an average dinosaur and take it to like penguin level or ostrich level or hummingbird level evolution.
所以，是的，以一只普通的恐龙为例，将其视为企鹅级别、鸵鸟级别或蜂鸟级别的进化。
There’s going to be weirder stuff out there than we’ve found.
那里将会有比我们发现的更奇怪的东西。
Much weirder.
更奇怪的是。
If you travel back in time, you probably, your mind will be probably blown by the weirdness.
如果你回到过去，你可能会被这种奇怪的现象震惊。
Because those things are almost always in small, isolated places that don’t preserve fossils very well, and so the odds of us ever coming across them…
因为这些东西几乎总是在小而偏僻的地方，不能很好地保存化石，所以我们遇到它们的可能性......
2:59:06 I mean, you see it to a degree.
我的意思是，你在某种程度上看到了这一点。
So you’ve got the stuff that comes out of what is modern Hateg, which was a series of islands in the Mediterranean at the end of the Cretaceous, and some of the weirdest dinosaurs are from that chain of islands.
所以你已经得到了现代哈特格的东西，它是白垩纪末期地中海的一系列岛屿，一些最奇怪的恐龙就来自这一系列岛屿。
And that’s not very isolated compared to, again, something like Hawaii or New Zealand.
与夏威夷或新西兰等地相比，这并不是很孤立。
But it’s fitting the exact pattern.
但它符合确切的模式。
You get dinosaurs on islands, they turn weird.
岛上有恐龙，它们变得很奇怪。
We see that.
我们看到了这一点。
So again, dinosaurs were real animals.
再说一遍，恐龙是真实的动物。
Again, sounds really painfully obvious, but they weren’t monsters.
再说一次，听起来确实很明显，但他们不是怪物。
2:59:55 They followed the same…
他们遵循同样的...
Rules might be pushing it, but certainly, like, guidelines.
规则可能会推动它，但当然，比如指导方针。
Ecology operates in certain ways.
生态以某些方式运作。
If you’re bigger, you need more food.
如果你更大，你需要更多的食物。
But you’re more efficient.
但你的效率更高。
You just are.
你就是这样。
That’s pretty much just physics and scaling.
这几乎只是物理和缩放。
So big dinosaurs are going to follow the rules of bigger animals, and small dinosaurs are going to follow the rules of smaller animals.
因此，大恐龙将遵循较大动物的规则，而小恐龙将遵循较小动物的规则。
They just will.
他们只是会。
Quite how they violate it in certain ways, by having unusually long necks or unusual physiology, or eating an unusual diet, or because there was a weird plant that was alive then that isn’t now, or whatever it may be.
他们在某些方面违反了它，比如拥有不寻常的长脖子或不寻常的生理机能，或者吃不寻常的饮食，或者因为有一种奇怪的植物当时还活着，但现在已经不存在了，或者其他什么。
There’s obviously a huge amount of variation and uncertainty.
显然存在巨大的变化和不确定性。
But fundamentally, we know what makes animals and ecosystems work, and dinosaurs were animals in ecosystems.
但从根本上来说，我们知道是什么让动物和生态系统运转，而恐龙就是生态系统中的动物。
3:00:42 They’re not that strange at some level, and therefore reconstructing their actual biology is challenging, but far from impossible.
它们在某种程度上并不那么奇怪，因此重建它们的实际生物学特性具有挑战性，但也并非不可能。
Strange question.
奇怪的问题。
3:00:54 So as everybody knows, dragons are obviously real.
众所周知，龙显然是真实存在的。
I’ve been asked that on live TV before.
我以前在电视直播中被问过这个问题。
3:00:59 Only not with the sarcastic tone, so-
只是不是用讽刺的语气，所以——
Do you, do you dare disagree- …
你、你敢不同意吗——……
3:01:06 with this notion?
有这个观念吗？
Yes.
是的。
3:01:08 I, I do.
我，我愿意。
They don’t.
他们不知道。
Well…
嗯……
And, and again, I d-
而且，再一次，我-
They’re real to me, so…
它们对我来说是真实的，所以……
That’s fine.
没关系。
3:01:14 But again, you know, we kind of touched on it, but I think there’s probably very little of any kind of paleontological law that ended up in things like Chinese culture with the Chinese dragons and all of that stuff.
但是，你知道，我们有点触及了它，但我认为可能很少有任何类型的古生物学定律最终出现在中国文化与中国龙之类的东西中。
You know, that one comes up repeatedly.
你知道，这个问题反复出现。
The only one I do know of, again, from Alberta is buffalo stones that apparently some of the Native Americans had, which are actually bits of ammonites.
我所知道的唯一一个来自艾伯塔省的石头是水牛石，显然是一些美洲原住民拥有的，实际上是菊石的碎片。
So ammonites, they’re curly spiral-shelled cephalopods that are related to octopus and squid.
所以菊石，它们是卷曲的螺旋壳头足类动物，与章鱼和鱿鱼有关。
So they have all these little segments to the shells, and the right species…
所以它们有壳上的所有这些小部分，以及正确的物种……
And when they break open, they have, like, two little pairs of legs and then a bulge and then a little bulge, and it looks very roughly like a bison.
当它们打开时，它们有两对小腿，然后是一个凸起，然后是一个小凸起，看起来非常像野牛。
3:02:01 And apparently these were thought to be somehow miniature bison.
显然，这些被认为是某种微型野牛。
They’re very rare because, ironically, although the dinosaur bones are extremely common, it was very swampy and so you didn’t actually have a lot of sea coming in, so you didn’t tend to get things like ammonites and ocean-going animals.
它们非常罕见，因为具有讽刺意味的是，虽然恐龙骨头非常常见，但那里非常沼泽，所以实际上没有大量的海水进入，所以你不会得到像菊石和远洋动物这样的东西。
And then the shell would have to break in the right way.
然后外壳必须以正确的方式破裂。
But apparently for the local tribes, like ǀSáptəṉilh, I don’t remember who it is in that bit of Canada…
但显然对于当地部落来说，比如 ǀSáptəṉilh，我不记得在加拿大的那个地方是谁了……
But yeah, these were quite valued, if you’ve got a buffalo stone.
但是，是的，如果你有一块水牛石，这些都是相当有价值的。
And I’ve seen a couple of them, and yeah, you have to squint a bit, but as a little buffalo, it’s not far off.
我见过其中的几个，是的，你必须眯着眼睛看一下，但作为一头小水牛，它离我们并不遥远。
3:02:35 But yeah, but that whole, like, were they finding mammoth legs and were they finding T-rexes, and was this inspiration for this animal or this mystical animal?
但是，是的，但是整个过程，比如，他们是否发现了猛犸象的腿，他们是否发现了霸王龙，这是这种动物或这种神秘动物的灵感吗？
I, I don’t think they were, because you just don’t tend to find them like that.
我，我不认为他们是，因为你只是不倾向于那样发现他们。
So where do you think…?
那么你认为……在哪里？
3:02:47 You know, because dragons show up in a bunch of different myths.
你知道，因为龙出现在许多不同的神话中。
Well, right.
嗯，对。
3:02:50 But that’s the thing, they turn up in British mythology and we’ve barely got any dinosaurs here at all.
但事实就是这样，它们出现在英国神话中，而我们这里几乎没有恐龙。
You, you only e- you only find them when you start digging for coal mines, which we weren’t doing in…
你，你只能——你只有在开始挖掘煤矿时才能找到它们，而我们并没有这样做……
Is it basically a dr- dramatization of like of snakes and lizards and stuff like this?
它基本上是蛇、蜥蜴之类的戏剧化作品吗？
Yeah, and just general exaggeration and welding stuff together.
是的，只是一般的夸张和将东西焊接在一起。
3:03:05 I mean, that’s one thing you could, I guess, potentially argue is that, you know, yeah, we find tyrannosaurs in North America and in East Asia.
我的意思是，我想，你可能会争论的一件事是，你知道，是的，我们在北美和东亚发现了霸王龙。
In fact, there’s a whole bunch of stuff in the Early Cretaceous, which is often very common because it’s all relatively recent in the grand scheme of things in the history of the world.
事实上，早白垩世有一大堆东西，这通常很常见，因为它们在世界历史的宏伟计划中都是相对较新的。
The fauna of East Asia, China, Mongolia, Eastern Russia, is very similar to what you get in Canada or in the USA and down in Mexico.
东亚、中国、蒙古、俄罗斯东部的动物群与加拿大、美国和墨西哥的动物群非常相似。
And so you find the same rough stuff.
所以你会发现同样粗糙的东西。
They’re not exactly the same, but you get ceratopsians, you get tyrannosaurs, you get the big-edged archosaurs, you get ankylosaurs, the armored ones, this, that, and the other.
它们并不完全相同，但是你有角龙，你有暴龙，你有大刃主龙，你有甲龙，装甲龙，这个，那个，还有其他。
3:03:46 So if these were influencing all those different cultures…
因此，如果这些影响着所有不同的文化……
…Why don’t Chinese dragons look like Mexican dragons or equivalent thunderbirds or whatever?
......为什么中国龙看起来不像墨西哥龙或类似的雷鸟或其他什么？
Well, because it probably wasn’t influencing them.
嗯，因为这可能不会影响他们。
If they were all seeing the same skeleton, they’d probably all produce the same kind of mythical animals.
如果他们都看到相同的骨骼，他们可能都会产生相同类型的神话动物。
They all produce…
他们都生产……
…Different ones.
……不同的。
You have to understand, paleontology’s not perfect, so they were just misinterpreting it.
你必须明白，古生物学并不完美，所以他们只是误解了它。
Misinterpreting, yeah.
误会了，是的。
I mean, dragons aside, I’m sure, like we said with weirdness, there would be creatures that would be remarkable, right?
我的意思是，除了龙之外，我确信，就像我们奇怪地说的那样，会有一些非凡的生物，对吧？
3:04:09 That you look at it and you might as well be seeing a dragon.
当你看着它时，你可能会看到一条龙。
It could be…
可能是……
And I mean, there’s creatures alive in the sea today.
我的意思是，今天的海里还有生物活着。
Yeah, I mean, if you dredged up a colossal squid, I think you’d have…
是的，我的意思是，如果你挖出一条巨大的鱿鱼，我想你会……
3:04:24 You know, or even just dugongs and manatees.
你知道，甚至只是儒艮和海牛。
I mean, they’re really quite strange.
我的意思是，他们真的很奇怪。
And if you allow yourself to marvel at the small things on earth, like I was in the Amazon jungle, the insects, they’re just like, “What is…” …happening there?
如果你让自己惊叹于地球上的小事物，就像我在亚马逊丛林中的昆虫一样，它们就像，“什么是……”……那里发生了什么？
3:04:34 There’s so many things going on.
有很多事情正在发生。
Oh, they’re like hairy and colorful and probably poisonous and they have teeth and what…
哦，它们毛茸茸的，色彩缤纷，可能有毒，它们有牙齿，什么……
And they’re just…
而他们只是……
And they’re long and…
而且它们很长而且……
Well, and all the little weirdos.
好吧，还有所有的小怪人。
3:04:53 I’ve several times pitched a book to publishers where I want to write a book that basically makes the point that there is almost nothing…
我曾多次向出版商推销一本书，我想写一本基本上表明几乎没有什么……的书。
I mean, you can always dream up something totally ludicrous.
我的意思是，你总是可以想象出一些完全可笑的东西。
There is basically nothing in science fiction that doesn’t already exist on Earth in some way, shape or form.
科幻小说中基本上没有什么东西不是以某种方式、形状或形式存在于地球上的。
Yeah, that is why I’ll think about alien civilizations and aliens out there, and I’m very certain that there are aliens everywhere throughout the observable universe.
是的，这就是为什么我会思考外星文明和外星人，而且我非常确定在可观测的宇宙中到处都有外星人。
3:05:14 It’s very strange we haven’t seen them, but it’s fun to marvel at what they possibly look like, because there’s a huge variety of organisms and species here on Earth, and you just expand that out…
我们没有看到它们很奇怪，但惊叹它们可能的样子很有趣，因为地球上有各种各样的生物和物种，你只需将其扩展出来......
…To like more and more Earths, and you can just imagine there’s a lot of weird things.
......喜欢越来越多的地球，你可以想象有很多奇怪的事情。
Well, that’s the thing.
嗯，就是这样。
3:05:42 I think most people, you know, understandably…
我认为大多数人，你知道，可以理解......
I’m a biologist, and I particularly pride myself on finding out about particularly weird animals.
我是一名生物学家，我为自己发现了特别奇怪的动物而感到特别自豪。
But yeah, I think people would be stunned about some of the weird stuff that’s out there that they just wouldn’t realize are real.
但是，是的，我认为人们会对外面的一些奇怪的东西感到震惊，他们只是没有意识到这些东西是真实的。
You know, things like velvet worms.
你知道，像天鹅绒虫之类的东西。
Yeah.
是的。
You know, it’s just…
你知道，这只是……
3:06:02 blow your mind.
让你大吃一惊。
You know, sicilians and stuff like this and their reproductive behavior.
你知道，西西里人和类似的东西以及他们的繁殖行为。
It’s just jaw-dropping.
真是令人瞠目结舌。
I mean, I love teaching about them.
我的意思是，我喜欢教授有关它们的知识。
I do a class on diversity of life and I do, now it’s about eight weeks of vertebrate diversity, and I love just dropping things in and the students are like, “What do you mean that exists?
我上了一堂关于生命多样性的课，我确实这么做了，现在大约有八周的脊椎动物多样性，我喜欢把东西放进去，学生们会说，“你说存在是什么意思？
What do you mean?
你什么意思？
Something like that’s normal for this group?” Yeah.
对于这个群体来说，这样的事情很正常吗？”是的。
Yeah, they do that.
是的，他们就是这么做的。
Well, from that class, but everything you’ve studied with the dinosaurs, what have you learned about the evolution of life on Earth, that mechanism?
嗯，从那堂课上，但是你对恐龙的研究，你对地球上生命的进化、那个机制了解了什么？
It’s, it’s really good.
是啊，真是太好了。
3:06:39 It sounds obvious but it’s…
听起来很明显，但它是……
I think the bit that still fries my brain is just like the raw numbers, because I think we’re very bad at considering…
我认为仍然让我头疼的部分就像原始数字一样，因为我认为我们非常不善于考虑……
Like, I regularly talk about, “Oh, this is 70 million years old, but this is 78 and this is 104.” And people are just like, “Oh my God, how on Earth do you deal with those numbers?” And I don’t.
就像，我经常谈论，“哦，这是 7000 万年的历史，但这是 78 年，这是 104 年。”人们就像是，“天哪，你到底是如何处理这些数字的？”我不知道。
They’re just numbers, because I can’t conceive of it really any better than you can.
它们只是数字，因为我无法比你更好地理解它。
They are astronomical.
它们是天文数字。
Yeah, last Thursday was quite a long time ago.
是的，上周四已经是很久以前的事了。
3:07:15 66 million years is mind-boggling.
6600万年是令人难以置信的。
Like I, I, I can’t fathom it.
就像我，我，我无法理解它。
But that’s it.
但就是这样。
I think the evolution thing is, A, my suspicion is quite a lot of it happens…
我认为进化的事情是，A，我怀疑很多这样的事情都会发生……
It’s not quite Stephen Gould’s punctuated equilibrium, but I think stressful events probably prompt a lot more than less stressful events.
这并不完全是斯蒂芬·古尔德的间断平衡，但我认为压力事件可能比压力较小的事件引发更多的事情。
You know, the, you know, population crashes and all these things that then…
你知道，你知道，人口崩溃以及所有这些事情然后......
Odd things survive and then that’s changing your genetic component and all the rest of it.
奇怪的东西会生存下来，然后就会改变你的遗传成分和所有其他成分。
But you’ve just got to remember that it’s just…
但你必须记住，这只是……
it’s almost a numbers game.
这几乎是一个数字游戏。
3:07:52 You know, it’s that bad analogy of like, “Oh yeah, evolution is just rolling dice and hoping you get all sixes.” And it’s like, no, a friend of mine said, “No, it’s rolling dice but it gets to keep the sixes.” And then suddenly getting a hat full of sixes isn’t that hard, but also you’re in the context of even rare species, you know, ultra-rare, short of stuff that like we’ve nearly killed off but like very rare species have populations in the thousands or hundreds of thousands.
你知道，这是一个糟糕的类比，“哦，是的，进化只是掷骰子，希望你得到全六。”就像，不，我的一个朋友说，“不，这是掷骰子，但它会保持六点。”然后突然得到一顶满是六的帽子并不那么难，而且你甚至处于稀有物种的背景下，你知道，超稀有，缺乏像我们几乎杀死的东西，但像非常稀有的物种有数千或数十万的数量。
3:08:19 And are probably around for hundreds of thousands of years.
并且可能已经存在了数十万年。
And very few…
而且很少……
you know, other than a few things like whales and apes and elephants, mostly have dozens or thousands of offspring at a time.
要知道，除了鲸鱼、猿猴、大象等少数动物外，大多数动物一次都会有几十个或几千个后代。
So a few thousand animals that have a few thousand offspring aligned for a few hundred thousand years…
所以几千只动物有几千个后代，排列了几十万年……
Yeah, it’s billions and billions and billions of them.
是的，有数十亿、数十亿、数十亿。
And that’s the rare stuff.
这就是稀有的东西。
You look at Mola mola, the ocean sunfish, though I think mola has just been split up into, like, five species.
你看看翻车鱼，即海洋翻车鱼，尽管我认为翻车鱼刚刚被分成了五个物种。
It’s one of the weirdest looking animals.
它是长相最奇怪的动物之一。
It’s- love it.
它是——喜欢它。
Love it, love it, love it.
爱它，爱它，爱它。
I mean, what a fish that is.
我的意思是，那是什么鱼啊。
Swims with a giant dorsal and I think it’s a giant anal fin, and then they flap alternatingly.
用巨大的背鳍游泳，我认为它是一个巨大的臀鳍，然后它们交替拍动。
Does it have a face?
它有脸吗？
3:09:01 Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
3:09:03 Little one at the front, ate jellyfish, super open-oceanic.
前面的小家伙，吃的是水母，超级大洋的。
And they get really big.
他们变得非常大。
You can see that one with the diver.
你可以看到那个和潜水员在一起的人。
But I think these are the record breeders for animals, and they have something like 100 million eggs at a time.
但我认为这些是动物繁殖者的记录，他们一次产下大约 1 亿个蛋。
Whoa.
哇哦。
Don’t quote me on that, but it is something in those kinds of numbers.
不要引用我的话，但这就是这些数字中的一些内容。
3:09:17 So yeah, that’s- you don’t need a very large population of sunfish to start having an awful lot of numbers.
所以，是的，那就是——你不需要大量的翻车鱼就能开始拥有大量的数量。
Are you going to Google it and see if you can find it?
你打算用谷歌搜索一下，看看是否能找到它吗？
Number of eggs or something?
鸡蛋的数量还是什么？
Yeah.
是的。
300 million.
3亿。
Oh, I undercut it.
哦，我削弱了它。
A- a single fe-
A-单个fe-
…undercut it.
……削弱它。
A single female can release up to 300 million eggs at one time during a spawning event.
一只雌性在产卵过程中一次最多可以产下 3 亿枚卵。
3:09:39 Boy.
男生。
These eggs are incredibly small, measuring about 1.3 millimeters in diameter.
这些蛋非常小，直径约为 1.3 毫米。
That’s still a lot of egg size-
这仍然是很多鸡蛋的大小 -
That’s still-
那还是——
…
……
3:09:50 when- when you think about it.
当——当你想一想的时候。
It’s not that small.
没那么小。
Yeah.
是的。
3:09:53 Cr- 300 million of- of one mil is still quite a bit.
Cr- 3 亿- 1 百万仍然是相当多的。
Fertilization is external.
受精是外部的。
Yeah, it’s-
是的，这是——
Females release their eggs into the water, where males then fertilize them.
雌性将卵释放到水中，然后雄性使卵受精。
3:09:58 Wow.
哇。
Man, there’s a lot of different ways to have sex, I guess.
伙计，我想，做爱有很多不同的方式。
This is…
这是……
Yeah.
是的。
3:10:08 But that’s the bit of evolution that I think…
但这就是我认为的一点进化……
I understand why people don’t get it.
我明白为什么人们不明白。
We are mostly talking about millions in population times millions of years times thousands of offspring.
我们主要谈论的是数百万人口乘以数百万年乘以数千个后代。
Yeah.
是的。
It’s kind of a numbers game.
这是一种数字游戏。
Well, how could this evolve?
那么，这怎么可能发展呢？
Well, the right selective pressure, and when you’ve got 100 billion offspring, probably a few of them have that.
嗯，正确的选择压力，当你有 1000 亿个后代时，可能其中一些有这种压力。
And when you focus in on a single species and trace its history, you can see how effective evolution is, natural selection is, and then you just have to, like, go across species and you’re gonna realize-
当你专注于一个物种并追溯它的历史时，你可以看到进化是多么有效，自然选择是多么有效，然后你只需要跨物种，你就会意识到——
Yeah, but it’s also a massive compromise, which is the bit that people always miss.
是的，但这也是一个巨大的妥协，这是人们总是错过的一点。
3:10:43 You know, it’s Darwin’s line: “It’s descent with modification.” Yes, over time, you can end up with extraordinarily weird things, but mostly what’s happening is you’re changing something fairly simple.
你知道，这是达尔文的名言：“这是经过修改的血统。”是的，随着时间的推移，你最终可能会遇到非常奇怪的事情，但大多数情况是你正在改变一些相当简单的事情。
You’re making edits to the existing plan, which is why you don’t have animals with tentacles.
你正在对现有计划进行编辑，这就是为什么你没有带触手的动物。
They have legs, which have joints, which have fingers, and they all have one bone, then two bones, then a bunch of little blocky bones, and then a few more, and then the little ones that make up the digits for hands and feet, and basically everything has that.
它们有腿，有关节，有手指，它们都有一根骨头，然后是两根骨头，然后是一堆块状的小骨头，然后还有更多，然后是构成手和脚的数字的小骨头，基本上所有东西都有这些。
3:11:20 …because you’re modifying that pattern.
……因为你正在修改那个模式。
And occasionally, you’ll get something weird, like most of the modern lungfish have basically reduced those down to—well, they had a more simple plan to begin with—but reduce it down to a stump, and then they’ve got something like a flail-y tentacle.
偶尔，你会得到一些奇怪的东西，就像大多数现代肺鱼基本上已经将其减少到——好吧，他们一开始有一个更简单的计划——但将其减少到一个树桩，然后他们就得到了像连枷状的触手一样的东西。
But yeah, you know, snakes have gotten rid of them, all of the various legless lizards and things like that, and again, caecilians, and all the rest.
但是，是的，你知道，蛇已经消灭了它们，所有各种无腿蜥蜴和类似的东西，还有蚓螈，以及所有其他的东西。
But yet, you’re subtly changing certain things in certain ways is mostly what’s going on, and then those build up over time.
但是，你正在以某些方式巧妙地改变某些事情，这主要是正在发生的事情，然后随着时间的推移，这些事情会逐渐累积。
But also, again, it’s that compromise of there’s things that do and don’t work.
但同样，这也是对一些有效和无效的事情的妥协。
There’s things that are interlinked, and so you can’t modify A without modifying B.
有些东西是相互关联的，所以你不能在不修改 B 的情况下修改 A。
3:12:02 Modifying A will kill you, therefore B never modifies, because the two are genetically linked in some way.
修改 A 会杀死你，因此 B 永远不会修改，因为两者在基因上以某种方式联系在一起。
Or yeah, like the compromise of the lion’s mane.
或者是的，就像狮子鬃毛的妥协一样。
Making it darker makes you sexier, but more likely to kill you.
让它变暗会让你更性感，但更有可能杀死你。
I think people think evolution is, like, perfecting things in some way.
我认为人们认为进化就是以某种方式完善事物。
And they’re not.
但事实并非如此。
They’re bodge jobs, you know?
他们是博吉工作，你知道吗？
That’s why we have a blind spot in our eye, but things like squid don’t.
这就是为什么我们的眼睛有盲点，但像鱿鱼这样的东西却没有。
But that process nevertheless does have inventions in it.
但这个过程确实有发明。
3:12:28 You have Tiktaalik.
你有提塔利克鱼。
You have a fish that learns to breathe, that crawls out.
你有一条鱼学会呼吸，学会爬出来。
Yeah, but it already had a swim bladder that it was probably processing a minimal amount of oxygen through, and the swim bladder evolved for a certainly different function.
是的，但它已经有了一个鱼鳔，它可能通过它处理最少量的氧气，而且鱼鳔进化出了一种肯定不同的功能。
Yeah, but that’s one of the powerful things- …
是的，但这是最强大的东西之一——……
3:12:44 about uh- …evolution.
关于呃-……进化。
It switches the function.
它切换功能。
It develops it for one function, but once you get there, you’re like, “Oh, okay, this could be used for another function,” that leads to something that we, in retrospect, can see as a major invention, which is— …a fish that’s able to crawl on land, and all of a sudden—
它为一种功能开发它，但一旦你到达那里，你会想，“哦，好吧，这可以用于另一种功能，”这导致了我们回想起来可以看到的一项重大发明，那就是……一种能够在陆地上爬行的鱼，突然间——
Yep, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
…we have cities and…
......我们有城市和......
3:13:03 …And rockets.
……还有火箭。
Tiktaalik specifically, there’s something really mind-boggling about a fish that crawls out of the sea, just the image of that.
特别是提塔利克鱼，一条从海里爬出来的鱼确实令人难以置信，光是这个形象就让人难以置信。
Yeah, but again, you’ve got stuff that’s not a million miles away from that.
是的，但同样，你所拥有的东西距离那还不到一百万英里。
3:13:17 You have things like frogfish, which are fully marine, but kind of clamber through seaweed and stuff, and they’ve got pseudo-functional limbs.
像躄鱼这样的东西，它们完全是海洋生物，但可以在海藻之类的东西上攀爬，而且它们有假功能的四肢。
It’s again, because it’s that…
又来了，因为那是……
Tiktaalik is not a weirdly derived frogfish, but it’s not like it’s a fish that suddenly came on land or a fish that suddenly evolved legs.
提塔利克鱼并不是一种奇怪的躄鱼，但它也不像突然来到陆地上的鱼或突然进化出腿的鱼。
There was already that selective pressure that was pushing it into a new opportunity, which gave it an…
已经存在选择性压力，将其推向新的机遇，这给了它……
and then on and on and on, and that’s what keeps going.
然后一直持续下去。
3:13:49 But it also brings up another thing, going back to dinosaurs and the behavior stuff, which again, I think has been a problem, is the functionality thing, and how there’s always been, I think, this big perception of single traits having single functions, which isn’t how a huge amount of biology works.
但它也带来了另一件事，回到恐龙和行为方面，我认为这又是一个问题，就是功能性的问题，我认为，一直以来人们对单一性状具有单一功能的大观念，这并不是大量生物学的运作方式。
For some, yeah.
对于某些人来说，是的。
Like, eyes are used for seeing.
就像，眼睛是用来看的。
They don’t really do anything else.
他们实际上不做任何其他事情。
But I think there’s a lot of…
但我认为有很多...
again, it comes down to a lot of the sexual selection stuff, but things like horns on Triceratops.
再说一次，这归结于很多性选择的东西，但像三角龙的角之类的东西。
That’s probably quite good for fighting off predators, but it’s also quite good for fighting other Triceratops.
这可能非常适合对抗掠食者，但也非常适合对抗其他三角龙。
3:14:23 And then things like elephants dig with their tusks as well as fight other elephants, as well as fight lions, as well as stripping the bark off trees.
然后，像大象这样的动物会用象牙挖掘，与其他大象战斗，与狮子战斗，以及剥掉树皮。
So, you’ve got to be very careful about how you think of functionality in two different ways.
因此，您必须非常小心地以两种不同的方式思考功能。
One way is, what possible things could that thing do?
一种方法是，那东西可以做哪些可能的事情？
And what possible things could have been the main selective pressure before?
以前主要的选择压力可能是什么？
So, you think about elephant tusks.
所以，你会想到象牙。
As I say, they do all these different things.
正如我所说，他们做所有这些不同的事情。
But when an elephant’s just got the tiniest…
但当大象刚刚长出最小的时候……
3:14:53 …little nubs, like the first elephant whose teeth are growing the wrong way and have pushed out of its jaw, and now it’s got a couple of little spikes, it can’t really dig a hole with them.
……小结点，就像第一头大象，它的牙齿生长方向错误，从下巴中伸出，现在它有几个小尖刺，它不能真正用它们挖洞。
It’s certainly not digging for water.
这肯定不是挖水。
They’re probably not great against a predator, because you’d basically have to get on your knees to try and lean over and try and stab it a bit.
它们可能不太适合对抗捕食者，因为你基本上必须跪下来尝试俯身并尝试刺伤它。
But you can show off to the girls, and you can immediately find another elephant who’s head-to-head the same height as you, and you’ve got a massive advantage.
但你可以向女孩们炫耀，你立刻就能找到另一头和你正面对视的大象，你就拥有了巨大的优势。
So evolutionarily, they probably started as some kind of sexually selected feature.
因此，从进化的角度来看，它们可能是从某种性选择特征开始的。
3:15:29 But now, functionally, they are probably compromised by the fact that having the best fighting tusks, but also having the tusks that are best at digging up water to keep you alive during a drought, is putting selective pressure on that.
但现在，从功能上来说，它们可能会受到这样一个事实的影响：拥有最好的战斗象牙，同时也拥有最擅长在干旱期间挖水以维持生命的象牙，这给它们带来了选择性压力。
3:15:44 And those are, are those selections, sexual selection appears in both ends.
那些是，那些选择，性选择出现在两端。
Those are two different things.
这是两件不同的事情。
Digging for water is critical, but it’s probably not what started it.
挖水很重要，但这可能不是它的开始。
And I think that’s where we get trapped with things like, say, the paddle tail of Spinosaurus or stuff like, or you know, or T-rex arms.
我认为这就是我们被诸如棘龙的桨尾或霸王龙手臂之类的东西困住的地方。
It’s like, well, why are T-rex arms like that?
就像，为什么霸王龙的手臂是这样的？
Well, maybe we need to consider what a slightly longer arm is like or what it was being functioned for in its ancestors or how it works in other species or what else it might do, rather than every paper is like, “Did it do this,” or, “Did it do this,” or, “Did it do this?” It’s like, you know, it could be all of them.
好吧，也许我们需要考虑稍长的手臂是什么样的，或者它在它的祖先中发挥什么作用，或者它在其他物种中如何发挥作用，或者它还可能做什么，而不是每篇论文都像这样，“它做了这个吗”，或者“它做了这个吗”，或者“它做了这个吗？”就像，你知道，可能是他们所有人。
That’s…
那是……
3:16:21 …a very different question to try and answer, but people don’t tend to think of it.
……这是一个非常不同的问题，需要尝试回答，但人们往往不会想到它。
And it ends up being very binary.
它最终变得非常二元。
And again, biology is not like that, because it’s a compromise.
再说一遍，生物学不是那样的，因为它是一种妥协。
And it may be wiser to then look at the evolutionary origins, how it first sprung up.
然后看看进化的起源，看看它是如何出现的，可能会更明智。
Yeah, if you, yeah.
是的，如果你，是的。
3:16:35 You know, what does a miniaturized version of this look like, and what might that function for?
你知道它的微型版本是什么样子的吗？它的用途是什么？
Or, or how does it function in ancestral forms?
或者，或者它如何以祖先的形式发挥作用？
You know, a really good example of that is giraffe necks, which have been argued about, you know, forever and a day it was, “Giraffe necks are to help them feed up high.” And then in the late ’90s, early 2000s, there’s a couple of papers coming out going, “Actually, maybe it’s sexual selection and competition.” And then that drove down into arguments about, “Well, what does a short neck look like?
你知道，一个很好的例子就是长颈鹿的脖子，人们一直在争论，“长颈鹿的脖子是为了帮助它们吃得高。”然后在 20 世纪 90 年代末、2000 年代初，出现了几篇论文，“实际上，也许这就是性选择和竞争。”然后这就引发了争论：“那么，短脖子是什么样子的？
And the okapi is the nearest relative.
霍加狓是最近的亲戚。
And what do short legs look like, and how do they work?” And plus a whole bunch of other studies.
短腿是什么样子的，它们是如何工作的？”还有一大堆其他研究。
And ultimately, it came out that we were right the first time.
最终，事实证明我们第一次是对的。
3:17:11 This is all about feeding.
这都是关于喂养的。
But it’s a really interesting way of thinking about it and looking at it.
但这是一种非常有趣的思考和观察方式。
Gotta ask you the ridiculous question.
一定要问你这个可笑的问题。
3:17:18 We do have dinosaurs here on Earth today.
今天地球上确实有恐龙。
They’re birds.
他们是鸟。
Yup.
是的。
3:17:24 10 and a half, 11,000 species of dinosaur.
10个半、11000种恐龙。
Are birds dinosaurs?
鸟类是恐龙吗？
Yes.
是的。
Yeah, there’s not…
是的，没有……
It’s, it’s-
这是，这是——
Wild?
狂野？
It’s just a yes.
这只是一个“是”。
3:17:31 Yeah, it’s-
是的，这是——
How many people know this, by the way?
顺便问一下，有多少人知道这个？
So there’s an interesting one.
所以有一个有趣的。
3:17:35 I did a radio show, oh, it’s probably seven or eight years ago now, with a couple of presenters, you know, drive time afternoon, nothing serious, nothing science or anything like that.
我做了一个广播节目，哦，可能是七八年前了，有几个主持人，你知道，下午开车时间，没什么严肃的，没有科学或类似的东西。
And I mentioned something like this.
我提到了这样的事情。
And one presenter was, “Oh my God, what do you mean birds are dinosaurs?” And the other one is, “What do you mean you don’t know birds are dinosaurs?” So it’s hitting that tipping point of common knowledge, I think.
一位主持人问道：“天哪，你说鸟类是恐龙是什么意思？”另一个是，“你不知道鸟类是恐龙是什么意思？”所以我认为它已经达到了常识的临界点。
Does everyone know?
大家都知道吗？
No.
不。
But I think an awful lot of people know and are now kind of used to it as an idea.
但我认为很多人都知道并且现在已经习惯了它作为一个想法。
So what’s the evolutionary connection between birds and dinosaurs?
那么鸟类和恐龙之间的进化联系是什么？
I mean, they literally are, in the same way that we are apes and mammals.
我的意思是，它们确实是，就像我们是猿类和哺乳动物一样。
3:18:09 Birds are dinosaurs.
鸟类是恐龙。
The direct, if you trace back the evolution of all the birds, so hummingbirds and albatross and ostrich and kiwi and parrots and pelicans and penguins and whatever else, and take them down to their ancestral point, and then go back quite a few more million years, the nearest relatives to them is a dinosaur.
直接来说，如果你追溯所有鸟类的进化，蜂鸟、信天翁、鸵鸟、几维鸟、鹦鹉、鹈鹕、企鹅等等，把它们追溯到它们的祖先，然后再追溯到几百万年前，与它们最近的亲戚就是恐龙。
It is actually something very close to Velociraptor, or at least a small version of Velociraptor.
它实际上与迅猛龙非常接近，或者至少是迅猛龙的小型版本。
So birds have literally descended from dinosaurs, therefore they are dinosaurs.
所以鸟类实际上是恐龙的后裔，因此它们是恐龙。
We have literally descended from other apes, we are apes.
我们确实是其他猿类的后裔，我们就是猿类。
It is that form of evolutionary connection.
这就是进化联系的形式。
Throughout that whole process, did they have feathers, or did feathers come and go?
在整个过程中，它们是否有羽毛，或者羽毛来了又去？
So feathers are in tyrannosaurs.
所以霸王龙身上有羽毛。
3:18:56 So feathers go back at least…
所以羽毛至少会回归……
ironically, because the fossil record is very incomplete, most of the things that are closest to birds we know from the Early and Late Cretaceous, so the last kind of 50 million years of dinosaur evolution, up to the extinction.
讽刺的是，由于化石记录非常不完整，我们所知道的最接近鸟类的东西大多是从早白垩世和晚白垩世开始的，所以最后一种恐龙进化了5000万年，直至灭绝。
And actually, birds almost certainly go back another 50 million years.
事实上，鸟类几乎可以肯定可以追溯到 5000 万年前。
So birds did not appear as a result of the dinosaurs going extinct.
所以鸟类的出现并不是恐龙灭绝的结果。
Birds lived alongside the dinosaurs for 100 million years.
鸟类与恐龙一起生活了一亿年。
The birds were not new on the scene, and it’s not like, “Oh, the dinosaurs died, and from the ashes rose the birds.” No, they’ve been knocking around forever.
这些鸟儿并不是新出现的，也不像“哦，恐龙死了，鸟儿从灰烬中复活了。”不，他们一直在闲逛。
They just survived ’cause they’re small.
他们只是幸存下来，因为他们很小。
In a very large part, yeah.
在很大程度上，是的。
3:19:40 That’s almost certainly what really helped them.
几乎可以肯定，这才是真正对他们有帮助的。
Birds took a kicking in the KT extinction, so did mammals.
鸟类在 KT 灭绝中受到了重创，哺乳动物也是如此。
Loads of bird lineages went extinct, and only a handful got over the line, but they did.
许多鸟类谱系都灭绝了，只有极少数跨越了界限，但它们确实做到了。
But yeah, we have feathers in, as I said, we’ve got Middle Jurassic tyrannosaurs that are 165 million years old, so 100 million years before the extinction, that have feathers.
但是，是的，正如我所说，我们有羽毛，中侏罗世的霸王龙已有 1.65 亿年的历史，也就是灭绝前的 1 亿年，它们有羽毛。
Simple feathers, they’d be like those you get on most baby chicks, so they’re not with the big kind of classic pick up a feather in, you know, in the street or on a field of the big vein up the middle and then the kind of paired flat pieces.
简单的羽毛，它们就像大多数小鸡身上的羽毛一样，所以它们不是那种经典的大羽毛，你知道，在街上或在中间的大静脉的田野上捡起一根羽毛，然后是那种成对的扁平片。
This would be much more like a hare.
这更像是一只野兔。
But we have them.
但我们有它们。
3:20:21 We’ve got something which is very close to a bird but might not quite be a bird, with modern feathers.
我们得到了一种非常接近鸟类但又可能不完全是鸟类的东西，它具有现代的羽毛。
In the Middle Jurassic, we’ve got definitive stuff like Archaeopteryx in the Late Jurassic, and then into the Early Cretaceous we have a series of fossil beds in China which are just heaving with them.
在中侏罗世，我们发现了像晚侏罗世的始祖鸟这样的明确的东西，然后进入早白垩世，我们在中国发现了一系列化石层，它们正在随之起伏。
So yeah, tyrannosaurs have feathers.
是的，霸王龙有羽毛。
Velociraptor and the Dromaeosaurs had feathers.
迅猛龙和驰龙都有羽毛。
Troodontids had feathers.
伤齿龙有羽毛。
Ornithomimosaurs, we’ve mentioned, they had feathers, and so did a whole bunch of other groups as well.
我们已经提到过，似鸟龙有羽毛，许多其他类群也有羽毛。
There’s about eight or nine major groups, kind of the size of something like, yeah, literally like carnivores or deers.
大约有八九个主要群体，其大小类似于食肉动物或鹿。
You know, some massive groups.
你知道，一些庞大的团体。
About eight or nine of them were fully feathered, as far as we can tell.
据我们所知，其中大约有八九只长满了羽毛。
3:21:08 So feathers massively predate bird origins, but it was a major part of their evolution.
因此，羽毛的出现很大程度上早于鸟类的起源，但它是鸟类进化的重要组成部分。
Do I understand why feathers evolved with the function, the sexual selection, the signaling?
我是否理解为什么羽毛随着功能、性选择和信号而进化？
Yeah, it’s probably a fundamental twofold one, which is feathers insulate you.
是的，这可能是一个基本的双重因素，那就是羽毛可以让你绝缘。
3:21:18 They keep you warm.
它们让你保持温暖。
And most dinosaurs were, it’s an archaic term, but it’s what most people know, warm-blooded.
大多数恐龙是，这是一个古老的术语，但它是大多数人所知道的，温血动物。
So they were much more like us and birds.
所以它们更像我们和鸟类。
They had a stable high body temperature regardless of the environmental conditions.
无论环境条件如何，它们都有稳定的高体温。
And so if you’re burning a lot of calories to stay warm, you want to kind of keep that heat, and feathers really help you do that.
因此，如果你燃烧大量卡路里来保持温暖，你就会想保持热量，而羽毛确实可以帮助你做到这一点。
And then the other thing is, yeah, the obvious thing is sexual selection and communication.
然后另一件事是，是的，显而易见的是性选择和交流。
Feathers do stuff that scales can’t.
羽毛可以做鳞片做不到的事情。
You can shed them in winter and change color and come back as another one.
你可以在冬天把它们脱掉，改变颜色，然后再回来时变成另一只。
That’s quite a handy trick.
这是一个非常方便的技巧。
You can change them between juveniles and adults.
您可以在青少年和成人之间更改它们。
3:21:56 So baby birds have one type of feather, adults have a different one.
因此，幼鸟有一种羽毛，成年鸟则有不同的一种。
We know of dinosaurs that do that, where we’ve got adults and juveniles with different feather types preserved in the fossils.
我们知道恐龙会这样做，我们在化石中保存了具有不同羽毛类型的成年恐龙和幼年恐龙。
Yeah, you can produce all kinds of weird colors and displays.
是的，你可以产生各种奇怪的颜色和显示。
You can erect feathers.
你可以竖起羽毛。
You can hold them up and fan them out like a peacock or a pheasant.
你可以把它们举起来，像孔雀或野鸡一样把它们扇开。
Whereas scales, you can’t really do that, or you need a huge amount of bone like Protoceratops.
而鳞片，你真的无法做到这一点，或者你需要像原角龙那样大量的骨头。
So there’s two good reasons that they would probably evolve, and exactly pulling them apart or which is more important.
因此，它们可能会进化有两个很好的理由，以及将它们分开或者哪个更重要。
And again-
再说一遍——
3:22:28 They’re probably bifunctional.
它们可能具有双功能。
As soon as you start making feathers and making them more colorful, well, you’re staying warmer.
一旦你开始制作羽毛并让它们变得更加丰富多彩，你就会保持温暖。
So that’s an advantage.
所以这是一个优势。
Or as soon as you start making feathers to make them warmer, it probably won’t be long until someone evolves them to be a bit brighter red.
或者，一旦你开始制作羽毛以使其更温暖，可能用不了多久就会有人将它们进化成更亮的红色。
And then we’re back to, “Oh my God, red.” Right?
然后我们又回到“天哪，红色。”正确的？
But, but that’s what’s happening.
但是，但这就是正在发生的事情。
And then they’re probably going to push each other potentially.
然后他们可能会互相推动。
I mean, it is true that the birds went real crazy with the feather and the colors and the prettiness and all that.
我的意思是，鸟儿确实对羽毛、颜色、美丽等等感到非常疯狂。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
3:22:52 They absolutely do.
他们绝对这样做。
Maybe there’s something about feathers that allows for that efficient sort of diversification of fashion.
也许羽毛有某种东西可以让时尚有效地多样化。
I think, yeah, I think it gives them opportunities that…
我想，是的，我认为这给了他们机会……
3:23:01 …Scales and solid structures simply don’t.
……尺度和实体结构根本就没有。
The…
该…
Yeah, it could be a material for it.
是的，它可能是它的材料。
…the sole ability.
……唯一的能力。
3:23:08 I mean, I say like, you know, peacocks and pheasants, they are at a massive disadvantage.
我的意思是，我说，你知道，孔雀和雉鸡，它们处于巨大的劣势。
The males have got these extra plumes on because they’re so big and heavy.
雄性有这些额外的羽毛，因为它们又大又重。
Peacocks can barely fly.
孔雀几乎不会飞。
But the fact is, you can still kind of fold them up into a fairly neat package and kind of hide if you really wanted to.
但事实是，如果你真的愿意的话，你仍然可以将它们折叠成一个相当整齐的包裹并隐藏起来。
Whereas if you’re something like Triceratops, that billboard on the top of your head is not only enormous, but also bone.
然而，如果你是三角龙，你头顶上的广告牌不仅巨大，而且是骨头。
It’s massive, it’s heavy, and you’ve got to-
它很大，很重，你必须——
No hiding.
没有隐藏。
…hide it around the whole year.
……把它隐藏一整年。
3:23:34 Whereas peacocks at least can go, “Well, all the girls have settled down on their nests now.
而孔雀至少可以说：“好吧，现在所有的女孩都已经在她们的巢穴里安顿下来了。
I’m just going to get rid of all this extra weight and dump it.”
我只想摆脱所有这些额外的重量并扔掉它。”
Just looking at the entire history of Earth, what has studying hundreds of millions of years of evolution, studying this epic age of the dinosaurs, what has that done for your appreciation of what makes Earth beautiful?
看看地球的整个历史，研究了几亿年的进化，研究了恐龙的这个史诗时代，这对你欣赏地球的美丽做了什么？
3:23:44 Do you ever just sit back and like, “Holy shit, this is incredible, this whole thing”?
你是否曾经只是坐下来然后说：“天啊，这整件事太不可思议了”？
Yeah, yeah, I, I do.
是的，是的，我，我愿意。
3:24:03 But I guess maybe not much more so than I would anyway.
但我想也许不会比我想的更多。
As in, I already…
就像，我已经……
because again, I don’t really think of myself as a paleontologist in a lot of ways.
因为，从很多方面来说，我并不真正认为自己是一名古生物学家。
It’s not that I don’t love my work, but it’s, I’m a biologist and this is what I’m looking at.
并不是我不喜欢我的工作，而是，我是一名生物学家，这就是我所关注的。
But I’m fascinated and amazed by lungfish and flying frogs and caterpillars and onychophorans and butterflies and a million and one other hagfish and things that I think are cool and interesting and fascinating, and I could happily read about them or watch them in a zoo or a documentary or whatever it may be, almost every bit as much as I would with dinosaurs.
但我对肺鱼、飞蛙、毛毛虫、甲虫、蝴蝶、一百万条盲鳗和其他一些我认为很酷、有趣、迷人的东西着迷和惊讶，我可以很高兴地阅读有关它们的内容，或者在动物园、纪录片或其他任何东西中观看它们，几乎就像我看恐龙一样。
3:24:54 I probably appreciate the dinosaurs and pterosaurs in a very different way because I have such a greater intimate knowledge of the science, in a way that I try and read the lion literature because I’m really interested in predation dynamics, but I can’t keep up with it whilst doing all the other stuff as well.
我可能以一种非常不同的方式欣赏恐龙和翼龙，因为我对科学有更深入的了解，在某种程度上我尝试阅读狮子文献，因为我对捕食动态非常感兴趣，但在做所有其他事情的同时我无法跟上它。
Predation dynamics.
捕食动态。
3:25:09 Awesome.
惊人的。
Well, right, so like the difference of, what prey are they taking?
嗯，对了，就像区别一样，他们在捕食什么猎物？
3:25:11 Why?
为什么？
At what percentage?
百分之多少？
What influences?
有什么影响？
How are they competing with leopards and…
他们如何与豹子竞争……
Wait, there’s a literature, body of literature on this?
等等，有关于这个的文献吗？
3:25:18 All right.
好的。
Yeah, people are studying lions and what they hunt, what they eat, and where they do it.
是的，人们正在研究狮子以及它们捕猎什么、吃什么以及在哪里捕猎。
3:25:21 There’s a whole bunch of stuff on particularly the African carnivores because there’s so many of them and they’re so big, and their populations aren’t terrible compared to South America or North America or a lot of Asia, for example.
有一大堆关于非洲食肉动物的资料，因为它们数量太多，体型太大，而且与南美、北美或亚洲很多地区相比，它们的数量并不可怕。
But going back to your question, yeah, I can appreciate all of it.
但回到你的问题，是的，我很欣赏这一切。
It’s all cool.
一切都很酷。
Some of it is definitely more awesome than others.
其中一些肯定比其他的更棒。
I work on some of the giant pterosaurs, the ones with 10-meter wingspans.
我研究一些翼展长达 10 米的巨型翼龙。
3:25:54 Yeah, and it’s hard.
是的，这很难。
My partner’s family’s from Uganda, and we were in Uganda last year.
我伴侣的家人来自乌干达，去年我们在乌干达。
I was watching marabou storks circle overhead and you’re like, “Wow, these things are huge and amazing.” And then I’m like, “Their wingspan’s about a fifth of the stuff I work on.” Actually, these are quite piddly in the grand scheme.
我看着鹳鹳在头顶盘旋，你会想，“哇，这些东西又大又神奇。”然后我想，“他们的翼展大约是我所研究的东西的五分之一。”事实上，这些在宏伟的计划中是相当微不足道的。
You know, this thing being like an airliner going overhead.
你知道，这东西就像一架从头顶飞过的客机。
And when you think about it in that context, yeah, I mean, because that’s it with the…
当你在这种情况下思考它时，是的，我的意思是，因为这就是……
I know people tend to be obsessed with size, and you kind of get it.
我知道人们往往对尺寸很着迷，你也明白这一点。
Blue whales are…
蓝鲸是……
3:26:30 …fundamentally cooler than smaller humpback whales, even if humpback whales are cool.
…基本上比小型座头鲸凉爽，即使座头鲸很酷。
It’s hard not to be impressed by Patagotitan or Tyrannosaurus or Triceratops or Quetzalcoatlus or any of these ultimate giants.
巴塔哥泰坦、暴龙、三角龙、风神翼龙或任何这些终极巨人很难不留下深刻的印象。
There’s a reason we love great white sharks.
我们喜欢大白鲨是有原因的。
There’s a reason we love giant squid.
我们喜欢巨型乌贼是有原因的。
There’s a reason we love lions and grizzly bears and stuff.
我们喜欢狮子和灰熊之类的东西是有原因的。
But the dinosaurs do kind of do it better than anyone else, you know, and the marine reptiles and the flying reptiles, because it’s just so insane.
但恐龙确实比其他任何动物都做得更好，你知道，还有海洋爬行动物和飞行爬行动物，因为它太疯狂了。
Yeah, both size and diversity.
是的，无论是规模还是多样性。
Yeah, and longevity as well.
是的，还有长寿。
3:27:01 I mean, you look at, you know, elephants have come and gone and, you know, the whales, okay, the whales have reached superlative sizes, but they’re relatively new on the scene.
我的意思是，你看，你知道，大象来了又走，你知道，鲸鱼，好吧，鲸鱼已经达到了最大的尺寸，但它们相对较新出现。
Could easily have gone extinct in the last century.
在上个世纪很容易就灭绝了。
But yeah, you know, there’s truly titanic dinosaurs for at least 100 million years.
但是，是的，你知道，真正的巨型恐龙存在至少有一亿年了。
It’s a long time.
已经很长时间了。
3:27:22 It’s hard sometimes, and as you said, it’s very hard to load in just how long that is.
有时这很困难，正如你所说，很难加载到底有多长。
They really dominated Earth for a very long time.
他们确实统治了地球很长一段时间。
Yeah, and almost absolutely everywhere.
是的，而且几乎无处不在。
3:27:31 There’s a handful of places that we’ve found where it appears that dinosaurs didn’t really get in and something else kind of took over, you know, like Australia with the marsupials versus the other eutherians.
我们发现有一些地方似乎恐龙并没有真正进入，而是其他某种东西接管了，你知道，比如澳大利亚的有袋动物与其他真兽类动物。
But yeah, fundamentally, it was a dinosaur planet after the Triassic, less so at the end of the Triassic when they’re first getting going, but Jurassic and Cretaceous, yeah, it’s 140-ish million years of just absolute dominance.
但是，是的，从根本上说，三叠纪之后它是一个恐龙星球，在三叠纪末期，当它们第一次开始活动时，情况就不那么明显了，但是侏罗纪和白垩纪，是的，它有 140 亿年的绝对统治地位。
I think it’s hilarious and just perfect that there’s a giant dinosaur head next to you, and you didn’t mention it once during this conversation.
我觉得你旁边有一个巨大的恐龙头真是太搞笑了，而且很完美，而你在这次谈话中一次也没提到过。
Yeah, sure, yeah.
是的，当然，是的。
3:28:10 Because I thought, I thought we’d get it.
因为我想，我想我们会得到它。
Well, I mean, giant is an absolute diddy one.
嗯，我的意思是，巨人绝对是个傻瓜。
So this is Protoceratops andrewsi, and I’ve done loads of work on Protoceratops.
这就是安德鲁西原角龙，我在原角龙方面做了很多工作。
It’s from Mongolia.
它来自蒙古。
This is a latest sized juvenile, so I’ve got a big head, and the big head’s kind of like this, but I really couldn’t fit it in the bag.
这是最新尺寸的少年，所以我有一个大头，大头是这样的，但我真的无法把它装进包里。
So this is a to-scale juvenile.
所以这是一个符合规模的少年。
This is a cast.
这是一个演员阵容。
3:28:29 So this is not, this is not original, but someone has molded and copied it.
所以这不是，这不是原创的，而是有人塑造、抄袭的。
So it’s not even, it’s not carved, it’s a cast and a mold taken.
所以它不是均匀的，不是雕刻的，而是铸造的和模制的。
So yeah, this is 100% accurate to the original specimen, or at least extraordinarily accurate to the original specimen.
所以，是的，这对原始样本来说是 100% 准确的，或者至少对原始样本来说非常准确。
So it’s a young guy.
所以这是一个年轻人。
Yeah.
是的。
3:28:47 But yeah, I mean, at full size, it’s going to be like pig or sheep size, so big but not massive.
但是，是的，我的意思是，在全尺寸下，它会像猪或羊一样大，很大但不是很大。
But I’ve got it partly because it’s affordable, because I can’t afford to buy the big skeletons and skulls.
但我得到它的部分原因是它负担得起，因为我买不起大骷髅和头骨。
But I’ve done a huge amount of work on it, and in part it goes back to those earlier conversations about populations.
但我在这方面做了大量的工作，其中一部分可以追溯到早期关于人口的对话。
If you really want to understand animals, you need an understanding of what a real population and a growth of what these animals looks like.
如果你真的想了解动物，你需要了解这些动物的真实数量和生长情况。
And Protoceratops is, I would argue, probably the only dinosaur where we can really do that, or at least as close as possible as you could get to any modern animal as an analog.
我认为，原角龙可能是我们真正能够做到这一点的唯一恐龙，或者至少尽可能接近任何现代动物作为类似物。
We’ve got well over 100 good skeletons, though not…
我们有超过 100 个好的骨骼，但不是……
3:29:33 Probably only about 70 or 80 in really accessible museums, but that’s still a hell of a lot.
在真正方便到达的博物馆中，可能只有大约 70 或 80 个，但这仍然是一个非常多的数字。
We have everything from here’s a tiny baby one.
我们这里什么都有，只有一个小婴儿。
This is a really cheap and nasty 3D print I had made, but that’s a hatchling sized one or not much bigger than a hatchling sized one, all the way up to the big adults.
这是我制作的一个非常便宜且令人讨厌的 3D 打印，但它的大小只有刚孵化的幼体，或者比刚孵化的幼体大不了多少，一直到大成体。
We’ve now got embryos as well, which we didn’t have until about 10 years ago.
我们现在也有了胚胎，而大约 10 年前我们才拥有胚胎。
So we’ve got embryonic animals all the way up to big adults.
所以我们从胚胎动物一直到成年动物。
They’re all pretty much from one place in Mongolia.
他们几乎都来自蒙古的一个地方。
And they are, as far as we can tell, from a relatively narrow window in time, only about 100,000 years, which in the grand scheme of things is very close.
据我们所知，从一个相对狭窄的时间窗口来看，它们只有大约 100,000 年，从总体上看，这非常接近。
So you’ve got one population from one place, from one time with 100 animals from embryos up to big adults.
因此，你从一个地方得到了一个种群，从一次有 100 只动物，从胚胎到成年动物。
That’s okay.
没关系。
So now if you want to look at, as I do, something like sexual selection and when does growth of the signal kick in and at what size and what evidence for dimorphism, well, suddenly you’ve got a population.
所以现在，如果你像我一样想研究性选择之类的东西，信号的增长何时开始，大小有多大，二态性的证据是什么，那么，突然间你就拥有了一个种群。
3:30:19 You’ve got something you can work with.
你有一些可以使用的东西。
And that’s why Protoceratops is so important, and I think way more important than even a lot of my fellow paleontologists realize, and I genuinely think we should be pouring a lot more research into them, because they can tell us stuff that pretty much no other dinosaur can.
这就是为什么原角龙如此重要，我认为比我的许多古生物学家同事意识到的还要重要，我真诚地认为我们应该对它们进行更多的研究，因为它们可以告诉我们其他恐龙几乎无法告诉我们的东西。
Because you have the population data, so you can…
因为你有人口数据，所以你可以……
3:30:48 …You can ask them a lot more questions.
……你可以问他们更多问题。
And we can treat it as a population.
我们可以将其视为一个总体。
3:30:50 So going way, way back to a conversation about telling males and females apart, and I said the big problem is population data, or at least the number of specimens that you have when mostly you’ve only got one, two, or three.
回到关于区分男性和女性的对话，我说最大的问题是人口数据，或者至少是你拥有的样本数量，而大多数情况下你只有一个、两个或三个。
I did a big study on this a few years ago on gharials, the really long-snouted crocodilians from Nepal, India, and Pakistan with a giant bulge on the end of the nose.
几年前，我对恒河鳄进行了一项大型研究，这是一种来自尼泊尔、印度和巴基斯坦的长鼻子鳄鱼，鼻子末端有一个巨大的凸起。
And even though the males are all bigger than the females, and the males all have this weird nose growth that’s mostly soft tissue, but they have a weird depression in the jaw, in the end of the snout where the nostrils sit.
尽管雄性都比雌性大，而且雄性都有这种奇怪的鼻子生长，大部分是软组织，但它们的下巴、鼻孔所在的鼻子末端有一个奇怪的凹陷。
3:31:27 We got a sample size of something like about 110 animals, so these are very, very rare animals, so we had to ransack every museum worldwide.
我们得到了大约 110 只动物的样本，所以这些都是非常非常稀有的动物，所以我们不得不搜查世界各地的每个博物馆。
I was sending my students sending emails to huge numbers of people, “Have you got one sitting in your collection lost?
我让我的学生向大量的人发送电子邮件，“你的收藏中有一本丢失了吗？
Can you get it for us?
你能帮我们拿一下吗？
Can you take these photos or these measurements?
你能拍下这些照片或这些尺寸吗？
We can measure it.” We put the dataset together, and then we found that actually, apart from the very biggest males, it’s really hard to tell males and females apart, and this actually really closely matched some modeling data that I’d done with a colleague, Jordan Mallon in Ottawa looking at this for alligators and trying to compare it to dinosaurs.
我们可以测量它。”我们把数据集放在一起，然后我们发现，实际上，除了最大的雄性之外，很难区分雄性和雌性，这实际上与我和渥太华的同事乔丹·马伦（Jordan Mallon）所做的一些建模数据非常吻合，他在研究鳄鱼，并试图将其与恐龙进行比较。
3:32:09 Because though we talked about mutual sexual selection before, neutral sexual selection in particular, you tend to get things that are extremely similar.
因为虽然我们之前讨论过相互性选择，特别是中性性选择，但你往往会得到极其相似的东西。
Males and females are very hard to tell apart.
男性和女性很难区分。
But there’s also a gradient, you know, all the way up to things like peacocks, all the way down to you can’t tell them apart, like parrots.
但也有一个梯度，你知道，一直到像孔雀这样的东西，一直到你无法区分它们的东西，像鹦鹉。
And for some features, when they take time to get growing, or because dinosaurs grow over a very long window and are sexually mature over a very long window, you run into the problem that a big female will look like a small male.
对于某些特征，当它们需要时间来生长时，或者因为恐龙在很长的时间内生长并在很长的时间内性成熟，你就会遇到一个问题，即大的雌性看起来像小雄性。
3:32:43 And we can’t sex them.
我们不能对它们进行性行为。
And lo and behold, this is what you get with the gharials.
你瞧，这就是恒河鳄得到的结果。
The really big males are obvious because they’re so much bigger and they’ve got this big depression in the snout.
真正的大雄性是显而易见的，因为它们大得多，而且它们的鼻子上有一个很大的凹陷。
But medium-sized and big females look like medium-size or smaller males and very small males.
但中型和大型雌性看起来像中型或更小的雄性和非常小的雄性。
And so, yeah, that’s basically what we have with dinosaurs.
所以，是的，这基本上就是我们对恐龙的看法。
Even with Protoceratops, where we’ve got a dataset of like a hundred, papers have come out saying there’s very mild sexual dimorphism or there isn’t sexual dimorphism.
即使对于原角龙，我们拥有大约一百个数据集，论文也指出存在非常轻微的两性二态性或不存在两性二态性。
Sexual dimorphism could be very strong in Protoceratops, but we can’t find it because we can’t tell the males from the females because we haven’t ID’d enough through something like medullary bone.
原角龙的性别二态性可能非常强，但我们找不到它，因为我们无法通过髓骨之类的东西来区分雄性和雌性。
3:33:31 And so you’re in this horrible situation where, because going back to the T-Rex thing, it’s like, “Well, maybe it’s mutual sexual selection, and therefore they’re cooperating,” and that would be cool.
所以你处于这种可怕的境地，因为回到霸王龙的事情，就像，“好吧，也许这是相互的性选择，因此他们正在合作，”这会很酷。
But also, maybe males are much bigger, but we can’t tell because our dataset’s too small.
而且，也许雄性体型要大得多，但我们无法判断，因为我们的数据集太小了。
Oh, that’s frustrating.
哦，这真令人沮丧。
In which case, they’re not under mutual sexual selection, and we’ve got it all wrong.
在这种情况下，它们就没有受到相互性选择的影响，我们就完全错了。
3:33:46 It’s maddening!
太令人抓狂了！
It’s maddening because it’s so…
这很令人抓狂，因为它是如此……
If these were living animals, you’d just watch them, or you’d just genotype them, or you’d sex them, and you’d just know.
如果这些是活的动物，你只要观察它们，或者你只是对它们进行基因分型，或者你对它们进行性别鉴定，你就会知道。
And we just don’t.
而我们就是不这样做。
But on the other hand, we do have the mechanism to do it.
但另一方面，我们确实有这样做的机制。
There are a handful of places where you get a bunch of Protoceratops together, where it’s a mass mortality site.
有几个地方可以看到一群原角龙聚集在一起，那里是大规模死亡的地方。
Well, let’s go and drill every bone, because if that’s the breeding season, we might find seven or eight females, and then the others are pretty much by default males if we know it’s the middle of the breeding season because all the others have medullary bone, and now you know where your male/female split is.
好吧，让我们去钻每一根骨头，因为如果那是繁殖季节，我们可能会发现七八个雌性，然后如果我们知道这是繁殖季节的中期，那么其他的几乎默认是雄性，因为所有其他都有髓质骨，现在你知道你的雄性/雌性分裂在哪里。
3:34:27 Now let’s analyze those two datasets, and then maybe we’ll see a difference, and maybe we won’t.
现在让我们分析这两个数据集，然后也许我们会看到差异，也许我们不会。
Yeah, I love how that frustration is sort of a catalyst for figuring out.
是的，我喜欢这种挫败感是一种找到答案的催化剂。
3:34:32 You’re searching for a place, a piece of evidence that just shows you clearly.
你正在寻找一个地方，一个能清楚地向你展示你的证据。
There are ways in.
有办法进去。
Yeah, there’s ways in.
是的，有办法进去。
This is the thing.
就是这样。
There’s always ways in.
总有办法进去。
Yeah, there are, there are ways in, and maybe we’ve got to get lucky because maybe it’s not the breeding season or maybe that was just happened to be a group of all males, and therefore we’re not going to get the signal we’re looking for.
是的，有，有办法进入，也许我们必须幸运，因为也许现在不是繁殖季节，或者也许那只是一群雄性，因此我们不会得到我们正在寻找的信号。
3:34:45 But there’s enough of them, and they’re common enough, and yet, still digging in Mongolia.
但它们的数量已经够多了，也够常见了，但仍在蒙古进行挖掘。
We keep finding new species.
我们不断寻找新物种。
We keep finding new cooler stuff.
我们不断寻找新的、更酷的东西。
But I’m like, “Can we, can we dig up some more Protoceratops?” Because actually, however cool these new things are, genuinely if you want to know what dinosaurs are and how they worked, another hundred Protoceratops will actually probably tell us a lot more than 50 new species, however cool 50 new species might be.
但我想，“我们能不能再挖一些原角龙？”因为实际上，无论这些新事物多么酷，如果你真的想知道恐龙是什么以及它们是如何活动的，另外一百个原角龙实际上可能会告诉我们超过 50 个新物种，无论 50 个新物种有多酷。
Paleontology is an incredible discipline.
古生物学是一门令人难以置信的学科。
3:35:26 It really is Sherlock Holmes territory, so this was an incredible conversation.
这确实是福尔摩斯的领域，所以这是一次令人难以置信的对话。
I’m really grateful for all the work you write, that you put out there, the podcast is incredible.
我真的很感谢你写的、发布的所有作品，播客非常棒。
I just, thank you.
我只是，谢谢你。
Thank you for being you and thank you for talking today.
谢谢你的存在，也谢谢你今天的发言。
Thank you.
谢谢。
3:35:38 Well, thank you very much for having me.
嗯，非常感谢你邀请我。
I hope I haven’t worn out my welcome with dinosaur stories.
我希望我还没有因为恐龙故事而失去热情。
Oh, we could talk for many more hours.
哦，我们还可以聊很多个小时。
3:35:48 Thank you, brother.
谢谢你，兄弟。
Thank you, Dave.
谢谢你，戴夫。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you for listening to this conversation with Dave Hone.
感谢您收听与戴夫·霍恩的对话。
3:35:53 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description and consider subscribing to this channel.
为了支持这个播客，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商并考虑订阅这个频道。
And now, let me leave with some words from Carl Sagan, “Extinction is the rule.
现在，让我引用卡尔·萨根的话：“灭绝是规则。
Survival is the exception.” Thank you for listening.
生存是个例外。”感谢您的聆听。
I hope to see you next time.
我希望下次能见到你。
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