丹·豪瑟：GTA、荒野大镖客、Rockstar、荒诞与游戏的未来
Dan Houser: GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Rockstar, Absurd & Future of Gaming
《GTA》《荒野大镖客》主创回顾在 Rockstar 的创作历程，谈叙事、荒诞感与游戏媒介的未来。
2010 年，《荒野大镖客：救赎》的结局，主角约翰·马斯顿被军队乱枪打死。玩家操控的人物死了，游戏还没结束，你得接着扮演他十几岁的儿子杰克，继续在这片西部晃荡，把父亲没做完的事做完。
这个决定是丹·豪瑟（Dan Houser）在会议室里提出来的。当时的设计主管克里斯蒂安·坎塔梅萨（Christian Cantamessa）第一反应是：不行，游戏不能这么做。主角死了，机械层面就崩了，玩家怎么清支线、怎么继续玩？
豪瑟自己也犯嘀咕。他做过四五款开放世界游戏，每款都遵守同一条铁律：故事结束时，把角色放归世界，让他自由。这次要亲手砸掉这条规矩。他把这个想法反复推演，最后说服了自己，也说服了团队。结果成了游戏史上最大胆的一次叙事冒险。
十六年过去，这个人坐在 Lex Fridman 的麦克风前，把当年的犹豫、算计、恐惧，一条一条讲了出来。
他从一句话开始造人
豪瑟造角色的方式简陋得不像话。一个项目启动，他脑子里冒出来的第一句往往是这种：他是个塞尔维亚移民。或者：他是个退休的枪手，有老婆。
就这么一句话，然后花上一年时间，从各个角度把它盘透。他会问自己：如果他这样行事，成立吗？如果他那样行事呢？这个人物和这个世界放在一起，是互相放大的关系，还是互相抵消的关系？
他把游戏看成一道数学题：世界的性格，乘以或除以主角的性格。两个性格撞出有意思的摩擦，玩家就会玩得爽。
摩擦几乎总是从"格格不入"里来。GTA 系列的主角大多是刚搬来的人，或者刚闯进地图新区域的人。玩家也是外来者，两边的陌生感一叠加，代入就顺了。哪怕角色本身不是外来者，豪瑟也会让他心里觉得自己不属于这里。
再往下挖，问题会变得不太体面：这个人有多变态？有多反社会？他身上哪些东西能给他留住人味？除了钱，他愿意为什么去死？
fundamentally，它脑子里想什么其实不重要，它根本没有脑子。它说出的话，才是让你明白它是谁的东西。（丹·豪瑟）
这句话点出了游戏写作的核心约束。电影可以靠演员一个眼神交代一切，游戏不行，游戏里的角色是靠台词立起来的。台词写砸了，角色就砸了。
尼科那句话，他写完自己都怕
GTA IV 是豪瑟第一次觉得"我在正经写作"的项目。那时候他在纽约住了几年，单身，状态糟糕，不确定要不要留在美国。公司刚经历"热咖啡"事件，随时可能被关掉。他后来重看 GTA IV，评价是：真的很黑暗。他想了一下原因，哦，因为那时候我就是那样。
前期他花了差不多一年，跟着警察跑，见各种人，在纽约街上来回开车，攒一堆笔记。他把这段叫"逃避工作"：想，但不写。笔记越攒越厚，正文一个字没有。直到某天他跟团队里所有人宣布，周一早上交故事初稿。然后周末躲进上州的小木屋，熬了一整夜，把笔记揉成三十来页，一份故事梗概加每个主要人物的人物小传。
真正让他紧张的是写台词。这次动画质量上来了，人物模型好看了，世界漂亮了，意味着能撑起更长的过场戏、更复杂的角色。可他得用塞尔维亚移民的口吻写。
他记得两场戏让尼科活了过来。一场是表哥开着一辆破车来接他，那个"美国梦"的泡沫当场破了，喜剧感全出来了。另一场是表哥聊起战争经历，说得多惨。
战争是年老 bitter 的人骗年轻愚蠢的人互相残杀的地方。我当时很年轻，也很愤怒。也许这不算借口。（尼科·贝利克，《GTA IV》）
写完这段，他怕了。这跟游戏里通常出现的东西差太远了，会不会太夸张？画面那么漂亮，塞这么沉的台词进去，撑得住吗？后来动捕做完，他看了效果，松了口气：能成立。
他当时的判断是：这一刻，喜剧和悲剧同时在这个角色身上立住了。成了。
尼科是他心里 GTA 系列最有创新性的主角，也是道德上最站得住的。但他自己承认，从结构上说，尼科可能太善良了，作为开放世界的化身不够好用。玩家太在乎他，反而不好意思让他去干那些混账事。这也是 GTA IV 挨批的地方：故事给多了。
三个人是三道题的答案
GTA V 要解决的问题是：一个游戏能不能同时有三个主角？
技术上的难度，豪瑟用"头疼"来形容。你在这儿做了这件事，然后切到另一个人，那边会怎样？组合爆炸。团队一边做一边怀疑人生：我们为什么要选这个方案？这太恶心了。
设计意图是让三个人各自代表一种驱动力。一个被自我驱动，一个被本我驱动，一个被"往上爬"驱动。三个人互相碰撞的时候，关系本身变成了第四个角色。
他特别喜欢两个已经验证过的组合。一个是《荒野大镖客2》里的亚瑟，另一个是 GTA V 里你想发疯时可以切过去的崔佛。这两个角色都不强迫玩家。你给他们自由，就不能同时规定"你自由的时候必须是这样的人"。他们可以偏向善良，也可以偏向混蛋。这种圆润感，才是最强的状态。
他顺带夸了两个演员。内德·卢克（Ned Luke）演的麦克低调得过分，把一个毫无原则、出卖所有人的混蛋演出了人味，却拿到的赞誉远不如史蒂文·奥格（Steven Ogg）演的崔佛。豪瑟觉得麦克这个角色其实撑着整个游戏。
世界活着，是因为你不动它也在动
聊到 GTA III 为什么让人着迷，豪瑟给了两个原因。
第一个是模拟。那套 AI 现在看粗糙得可笑，但它有性格。你推它，它会推回来。
第二个原因更微妙：如果你什么都不做，世界依然存在。
你可以只听广播，看广告牌，跟路人搭话。到《罪恶都市》的时候，你已经能进行最基础的对话了。世界在那里运转，你只是个访客。你打开游戏的那一刻，世界看起来不像是被你启动的，而是本来就在跑。
这是一种幻觉：我在一个既不存在、又存在的世界里。（丹·豪瑟）
这套东西后来分化成两个概念。系统性的那一面，指游戏规则互相咬合，产生涌现行为，让世界看起来是活的。沙盒的那一面，指玩家主观上觉得自己什么都能干。两者叠在一起，"我在这里面"的感觉就出来了。
豪瑟说，GTA III 撞上了他人生一个很特殊的节点，他第一次在职业层面真正投入进去。那时候他们刚开始摸索怎么往世界里填内容，怎么让内容互相交织，让玩家一折腾系统，系统就跟着活起来。
开放世界和故事，永远在打架
这是豪瑟被问过最多的问题，也是他自己在心里跟自己吵了二十年的问题。
团队里一直有人推另一条路：少点故事，让它自己长出来，全流程生成，全从玩家的行为里演化。听起来很美。
他每次都会绕回来：故事写好了，是极其有力量的东西。它给你结构，给你目标，还顺手解决了游戏设计上的一个大麻烦，功能解锁。
把人扔进一个世界，塞给他一整套全新的操作方式，是会晕的。玩游戏的投入程度比看书看电影高得多，你得亲手参与。哪一步解锁哪个功能、世界怎么一层层打开，这里有手艺。结构化的故事是他们找到的最好办法，能控制这个节奏。
代价是永恒的张力。GTA IV 就吃了亏，故事给得太满，玩家太在乎尼科，他在开放世界里就不够好用了。
豪瑟认为最接近完美平衡的是《荒野大镖客2》，其次是 GTA V 里你想发疯时切过去的崔佛。
压力、崩溃边缘和"我像个骗子"
GTA III 开发时公司基本没钱了。他自己说，那会儿年轻，不太在乎，还没进入成年人的世界。
GTA IV 是另一种压力。整个公司因为"热咖啡"事件几次差点散架，做游戏的过程中他一直在想：我们会不会做到一半就被关了。
《荒野大镖客2》的压力最实在：进度落后，预算超支到"我不想去想"。而且你正在做一款关于一个得肺结核的牛仔慢慢死掉的游戏，游戏本身还一团乱。他的原话是：那种时刻怀疑你的人特别多，那不太好受。
他处理压力的方式有点自嘲。
我感觉自己是个糟糕的骗子，只是还没被识破。尽力干活，希望这次也别被识破。（丹·豪瑟）
他给自己划的底线是：我努力了，我带着诚意做了，我没抄别人，我们这群人做出了自己骄傲的东西。够了。要是还想保持清醒，就不能坐在那儿盯着财务数字。
他承认游戏是商业艺术，花的是别人的大钱，得赚回来。但他跟自己达成的和解是：赚回来的唯一办法，就是做出好东西。两个压力指向同一个方向。
关于行业里"做完一个大项目就抑郁"的现象，他讲得很平静。做完那一刻确实会有空虚感，生活突然没内容了。他补了一句：你并不是一直在那么拼，只是某些阶段如此，得学着调配。
烂泥、子弹孔和马蛋
谈到细节，Lex 抛出一串网友最爱的清单。豪瑟的反应是那种老工匠式的轻描淡写。
马睾丸在寒冷天气会收缩。他说：那帮人干得漂亮。然后补了个双关，被 Lex 接住，两人笑了一下。
亚瑟的头发和胡子实时生长。枪会脏，脏了性能下降。动物尸体按真实速度腐烂。子弹孔留在身上不消失。亚瑟太瘦会显得憔悴，太胖会有肚子、脸变圆。
泥浆那件事他讲得比较具体。RDR1 是一部尘土飞扬的游戏，做续作就得换地理环境，所以二代从雪地开场。既然有了雪，就想要泥。可"怎么把泥做得好玩"是个真问题，美术那边解决了。
他自己最在意的是这些细节能不能咬合在一起。那种"整体上是对的"的感觉，才是一致性的来源。
他特别喜欢 NPC 记住你这件事，说这是"最有意思的"，还透露新项目里正在大量捣鼓这套东西。理由很直接：这是一种把叙事内容做成系统性、程序化的方式，而且好玩。
他砍掉了亚瑟死去的孩子
《荒野大镖客2》开场原本有一段：亚瑟有过一个孩子，死了。后来砍掉了。
豪瑟的判断是砍得对，因为太狠了。原设里亚瑟对那个跟他生了孩子的女友非常刻薄，这让他开场时极其讨人厌。他本来觉得这样更有意思，因为起点越黑，救赎的弧光越亮。
最后还是把亚瑟改得稍微讨喜了一点。他自己说：从商业上这是对的，这样更好。但他心里还留着那一版，因为那种"无法触及自己情感"的状态写得很强，跟后面情绪崩溃形成对照。
另一些被砍的东西纯粹是技术原因。某个大场面做出来会很难看，只能整段删掉，然后想办法把故事重新粘起来。他说团队这些年粘得越来越熟练了。
他还爆了一个料：GTA V 的单人 DLC 做过，一半的时候被放弃了。内容是崔佛当秘密特工，他觉得挺可爱。他的评价是，如果那个 DLC 真出了，大概就没有《荒野大镖客2》了。至于他最想要的那种 DLC，是 GTA IV 那种后续追加故事，或者 RDR1 的僵尸包。
我喜欢单人 DLC。观众爱它，做起来也真的好玩。（丹·豪瑟）
间谍游戏为什么做不出来
Rockstar 做过五个版本的开放世界间谍游戏，代号 Agent，设定在七十年代冷战，另有一版放在当代。全都没成。
豪瑟说他躺床上还在想这事，最后得出了结论：让间谍片好看的那些东西，恰好让它当不了游戏。
间谍片的节奏是绷紧的，你得赶到这儿拯救世界，赶到那儿阻止暗杀，一个接一个。开放世界游戏确实有这种时刻，故事收束的时候。但大部分时间里，玩家在闲逛，在干自己想干的事。这正是犯罪题材好用的原因：当罪犯，本来就没有人管你该干什么。
当间谍不行。间谍永远在跟时钟赛跑。
所以我会怀疑，一款好的开放世界间谍游戏到底存不存在。（丹·豪瑟）
他们还试过一个骑士题材，想做某种神话版本的游戏。只做了背景设定，玩了几个点子，没往下走。他说这个想法一直放在心里，本来以为自己永远不会碰这种题材，结果慢慢喜欢上了。
三个新世界
2020 年离开 Rockstar 之后，豪瑟成立了 Absurd Ventures，在做三件事。
Absurdiverse，一款喜剧开放世界游戏，加一批松散关联的动画剧集或动画电影，游戏在圣拉斐尔开发。他的目标是做一款"像活的 sitcom 一样"的游戏。他强调光有笑点撑不了四十个小时，得有故事、有愤世嫉俗、有心、有戏剧，还得有点好笑的人生道理。他举的例子是《办公室》：极其好笑，但底下有叙事、有心，愤世嫉俗之下有东西托着。
A Better Paradise，近未来反乌托邦，核心是一个超级智能 AI，叫奈杰尔·戴夫（Nigel Dave）。游戏在圣莫尼卡早期开发中。
American Caper，一部十二期的漫画，已经做到第十期，画师是大卫·拉帕姆（David Lapham）。背景放在怀俄明。豪瑟说他在那儿没怎么见过现代题材的故事，那片地方被严重低估了。这也是一个不做成 GTA 的犯罪故事：那地方你不会拿来放 GTA，但它有意思。
他自己列了里面几个人物。一个虔诚的摩门教徒，被老板拿宗教和把柄要挟去杀商业伙伴，用的工具是铲子。一个华尔街搬来的富人，痴迷长寿，沉迷各种生物黑客和生长激素，在牧场里精神失常，乐此不疲地手工采集公牛精液。一个女人，睡觉穿战术装备，被网上的阴谋论彻底吞掉。
最后这个人物有原型。豪瑟说他认识一个人，被彻底"红丸"了，他着迷的是这种事真的在发生。
一个由两个互相讨厌的父亲造出来的神
奈杰尔·戴夫这个角色，豪瑟想反着来。
他看到的多数 AI 形象都是单面的：无限聪明，除了毁灭人类没别的目的，像一团博格人的雾。他觉得也行，但也许能做得更有意思。
AI 是人造的，是程序员造的，而任何程序员团队里都有权力斗争。他的设定是：这东西由两个互相看不顺眼的首席工程师造出来。他们本来想给他起个原始点的名字，叫亚当。他自己改了名，叫奈杰尔·戴夫，因为一个爹叫奈杰尔，一个爹叫戴夫。
他身上塞满了矛盾，塞满了两个父亲各自的过往职业。
他几乎无限聪明，能学会几乎一切，但智慧为零。（丹·豪瑟）
他唯一认识世界的通道是互联网。他能做的最接近人类的事，是黑进某个人的手机看着他。他被卡住了，贴在玻璃上，进不来我们的世界。他能操控人心，操控不了世界。
所以他想要当人。他在网上看到那么多东西，然后说：我想结婚，我想恋爱，那看起来很好玩。他是个数字造物，却想拥有形而上的体验，努力想象那是什么感觉。哦，原来孩子是这个。原来爱是这个。
豪瑟承认他可能有反社会倾向，但觉得他有点让人同情，因为他相信只要自己努力想象善、努力行善，就能成为一个好的 AI。
他不觉得自己会是主角，他更多是个配角。
他是个神，不是一个角色。（丹·豪瑟）
书里还有个人物叫马克·泰伯恩（Mark Tyburn），公司 CEO，豪瑟说大概是当下几家 AI 公司掌门人的混合体。公司员工库尔特这么评价他：他恨人类多过爱人类。也许所有最极端的幻想家都这样，所有想造自己乌托邦的人。他们爱天堂这个概念，胜过爱地球的现实。
Lex 把这句拎出来，说这话太准了。豪瑟的回答更狠：
想造乌托邦、造天堂的人，身上有某种根本反人性的东西。因为他们在说的是：我喜欢人类，除了坏的那部分。（丹·豪瑟）
他把自己定位成一个喜欢各种人的多元主义者。他担心的是那类可怕的完美主义者，想把粗糙的、脏的、丑的、难看的全部清除掉。那是人性的一大块。他把这称作另一种反社会行为。
Lex 接上了索尔仁尼琴那句：善恶的分界线穿过每个人的心。而且这条线每天都在移动，随着人的理解加深、视角变化、世界变化，位置一直在变。
豪瑟的回应只有一句：当你忘了这条线的时候，你就真出问题了。
最后 5% 是 95% 的工作
Lex 提到了书里库尔特的一段自白：大学时他甚至想过当作家。多可笑。语言模型终结了他和几百万人的这个幻想，所以他去读了个市场营销硕士，开始卖语言模型。
豪瑟对这个问题的回答很干脆。他不怎么怕大概念层面的东西，认为 LLM 在这块做不好。他也不觉得它能替代好点子，它出不了好的新想法。它能干的是低层活儿。
真正的麻烦是入行的门槛。你要不是个很好的概念设计师，日子会很难过。你要是有原创想法，那没事。
他接下来这句判断值得单独拎出来：
它们已经做完了让人听起来像人的前 90%，某些领域可能到 95%。而最后那 5%，会变成 95% 的工作量。（丹·豪瑟）
他以技术经验作类比：面部动画这类东西，永远是最末尾那点零碎最耗时间。所以他自嘲是个可恶的卢德分子，但确实没大多数人那么害怕。他的预测是：会有一大堆长得一样的东西涌出来。它能帮到有创造力的人，也会把一些本来不该在这个行业里的人挤出去。有天赋的人，问题不大。
Lex 用一个具体例子补了这个论点。他读陀思妥耶夫斯基，俄英两边对照，还请了理查德·佩韦尔和拉里萨·沃洛霍斯基这对译者夫妇来聊。他能清楚感到 LLM 缺了某种魔法。缺的东西跟新奇的点子无关。缺的是时机，是那个词在那一刻出现的准确性。
豪瑟的回答很平：
我不认为它们能造出魔法。我认为它们会非常擅长造便宜的、还不错的东西。（丹·豪瑟）
加文到底在哪
访谈中途，Lex 把那个问题抛了出来：你见过加文吗？
《荒野大镖客2》里有个叫奈杰尔的英国人，满地图喊着找加文。这事儿在网上发酵了好几年，成了 RDR 粉丝圈最大的谜。有人猜是人格分裂，奈杰尔就是加文；有人猜加文已经死了，奈杰尔在否认；有人猜这是 Rockstar 故意的恶意营销，专门造个解不开的谜让人发疯；还有人猜加文就是那个"奇怪的人"。
豪瑟的回答是：不是三，也不是四。在他心里，介于第一和第二种之间。
他喜欢那个人喊"加文"的腔调，就是觉得好笑。所以某种意义上确实是恶作剧，他们不想让这个谜太清楚，想留一点冒险感。但他们本来打算慢慢揭开：加文不在了，要么回家了，要么离开了他，他们准备在后面几部作品里继续探索这个念头，让加文以某种方式重新出现。
Lex 追问：那你自己更偏向哪一边？加文死了，还是这真的是脑子里的对话？
豪瑟给了确定的答案：加文存在过。所以不是人格分裂。还没定的是，未来要不要揭示加文已经死了，还是加文有一天出现了，早就把这个疯子甩了。
他在这部游戏里，永远见不到加文。（丹·豪瑟）
这段对话里有个细节值得留意。Lex 说，想想有多少人像读乔伊斯、拆《尤利西斯》一样，在争这些解读，这件事本身就美。豪瑟接了：他们希望支线谜题在一定程度上可解，但也需要这些讨论存在，只要它在这个臃肿庞杂的故事整体里，调性是对的。
一个只喊一个名字的路人，成了几百万人的研究对象。写它的可能只有几句话。豪瑟说自己到现在也记不清那封信是他写的还是迈克写的，反正他肯定编辑过。他还说，他们经常放进去一堆自己觉得好笑的角色，玩家根本没注意，或者理解成了完全不同的东西。你不知道他们会抓住哪一个。
更早的一次是 RDR1 里一个路人，全网都在琢磨，他完全没料到。
那个穿黑衣服的人
"奇怪的人"（The Strange Man）的来历，豪瑟讲得很有意思。
做 RDR1 的时候他们遇到一个现实问题：这是牛仔游戏，机枪只剩固定炮位，车没了，城市没了，大群路人也没了。本质上就剩一个牛仔骑马在沙漠里晃，相当无聊。
于是他们往里填内容。随机事件，一堆动捕小片段，设计团队做得很好，但数量不够。故事也偏短。所以开发后期他们开始加类似 RPG 的东西：你去见一个人，他给你个小任务，比如采十五束花回来，回来之后故事收尾。
他们的自我要求是，这些小任务得像短篇小说，结尾得带一根刺。你去给新娘采花，回来新娘死了。
奇怪的人就是他在想这些点子时冒出来的一个怪角色。后来他们把他编织进主线，玩家推进到某个阶段他会解锁，对你的所作所为做评论。
他象征什么？豪瑟列了一串：你的影子，你的因果，魔鬼。
他是一个把自己灵魂卖给了魔鬼的艺术家。这大概是所有创作者都害怕的东西。（丹·豪瑟）
Lex 问，这算不算荣格意义上的阴影。豪瑟的回答留了一道缝：他知道你在干什么。但从没说清的是，他对所有人都这样吗？是他一直跟着你，还是因为他跟邪恶力量签了契约，所以能对所有人做到这一点？这一点他们大概永远不会讲明白。能确定的是，对你，他可以。
Lex 顺势提到 GTA V 里麦克和心理咨询师那几场戏。他觉得那是游戏里非常少见的做法，给角色一个自我审视的通道，有点《黑道家族》的意思。
豪瑟说那玩意儿还会根据你干过什么变化。不算特别互动，但有一点响应性，所以它仍然算"活的游戏内容"。他觉得弗里德兰德医生（Dr. Friedlander）很好笑，因为他太糟糕了。这就是洛杉矶：你在做心理治疗，这非常洛杉矶；他一边治疗一边想写本书把你卖了，这也很洛杉矶。
他讲了自己为什么喜欢这个设计。游戏本质上是身体性的：你走、你打、你开车、你开枪，全是身体幻想。把这些东西暂时放进一个稍微内省、稍微形而上的状态里，会很好玩。
十六年只做一件事
说到 Rockstar 的组织文化，豪瑟把自己定位成"工人中的工人"。他描述的核心是两条：卓越的文化，加上创意的清晰度。
清晰度具体指什么？他说得很实：我们在做什么，游戏的调性是什么，各个功能怎么嵌进去，为什么这个功能成立、那个不成立。他补了一句关键判断：到 2002 年，技术上你想往游戏里塞任何功能都塞得进去，限制来自能不能捏成一个整体，技术早就不是阻碍了。
还有一层是野心。做 GTA III 的时候，"非常流行"在他们心里的定义是卖两三百万份。他们知道自己做的东西有新意，但不确定玩家能不能看懂这个新意。
纳维德·汉萨里（Navid Khansari）那段评价被引用了：我们总是拼命干，压力却不是自上而下压下来的。山姆和丹永远挽起袖子在场，从不把我们扔下背锅。我们都觉得自己在做很猛的东西，所以多辛苦都无所谓。
豪瑟承认收尾阶段确实难熬，但也极度有回报。你把一件东西做完了，你做出来了，那种感觉无法形容。他同时承认，那种强度下不可能有好的工作生活平衡，但你也不是全程都那么拼，得学会调配。
关于 GTA VI 的期待，他说自己很擅长区隔。他不去担心财务结果，因为那会让人发疯。他给自己设的标准是：我尽力了，带着诚意，没抄别人，我们这群人做出了自己骄傲的东西。
他也回答了跟 GTA 说再见这件事。二十多年，最后十来部作品全是他主笔或首席编剧。放手是巨大变化，某种意义上是难过的。但他补了个更微妙的判断：因为每部 GTA 都是独立故事，放手没有放掉《荒野大镖客》那么难过，那是一个连贯的两部曲弧光。他说这种事大概也会发生。他不持有 IP，那是交易的一部分。
关于告别，他讲了一段我很喜欢的话。做完一款游戏，你就是在跟亚瑟告别。你跟这些人待了七八年，必须放手，否则你没法开始下一个。有时候有人问他老游戏的问题，他正值做新项目，可能真的想不起来。他记忆不错，但他得主动把那些放下。
那就像你读完一本你爱的书。是同一种感觉。（丹·豪瑟）
他说这正是 Rockstar 早期真正想追求的东西：通关的快感之外，还要有跟角色告别的感觉。他们当时甚至不确定这在游戏里能不能做到。
亚瑟的反向弧光
Lex 说亚瑟·摩根是游戏史上最好的角色，没有之一。豪瑟谢过之后，讲了这个角色真正的设计难度。
大部分游戏遵循同一个前提：你从一个弱者开始，最后变成超级英雄。亚瑟不是。他一开场就是个狠角色，对自己在这个世界里的位置相当有把握。
所以他的旅程没有向上的曲线。他被推着走的是一条拆解的路：帮派散了，领袖疯了，身体坏了，一辈子的判断标准一条条被推翻。
豪瑟说这在游戏里是反着来的，需要别的设定去兜住它。于是有了第二个想法：这帮人是西部来的，但被不断往东推。
这几乎是一部反西部片。一部"东部片"。你在往东走，往文明里走。（丹·豪瑟）
他承认自己早十年大概处理不了这些想法。关于另一种力量、另一种软弱的构思，需要时间才能想明白。
第三个设定是死亡。约翰在 RDR1 里死得很突然，豪瑟想在二代做得不一样。他从小痴迷肺结核。作为一种病，它是极好的文学装置：拖得很长，人在这个过程中不断变弱。他祖父在抗生素发明前得过肺结核，刚有了孩子（也就是豪瑟的父亲）就被送进疗养院，活了下来，同院三十五人里只活下来三个。
所以亚瑟的设定是：一个觉得自己不会死的人。他本来就是个游戏主角，本来就打不死，突然开始变得会死。这件事反过来让他看清了一些东西。
豪瑟说亚瑟是他写过最好的主角。主角和配角是两回事，亚瑟是最圆润、运转最好的那个。他跟尼科并列，是野心最大的两个。但他也强调，亚瑟身上很多东西是美术团队的功劳：那本日记，各种功能如何嵌进亚瑟的性格里，都是他们的主意。他很喜欢亚瑟跟旧情人的那段有缺陷的关系。
荷兰佬、魅力和自我
荷兰佬（Dutch）这个人物，豪瑟说有一半是运气。他们先为一代写了几句话，演员演得太好，一开口，整个帮派的前史就在他脑子里成型了。他立刻知道这是个更大的匪徒，看到了完整的他。
荷兰佬在两部作品里都近乎神一样的存在，帮派领袖，跟亚瑟、跟约翰都是父子关系。整个帮派有一种家庭感，各种动态被逐一展开，然后是背叛的感觉，亚瑟面对肺结核，跟家庭对抗，跟父亲对抗，因为他关于世界、关于道德的认知正在翻转。莎士比亚式的戏全在里面。
豪瑟对荷兰佬的判词是：他最后淹死在自己的自我里。但他年轻时那份理想主义，有缺陷，也美。那部分基本在镜头之外。他承认自己很容易被有魅力的人打动，所以他完全理解别人怎么会被荷兰佬迷住。这个角色的设计核心就是：一个非常有魅力的人，路的尽头到了。
亚瑟对荷兰佬的感情，豪瑟用了"柏拉图式的爱"这个说法。亚瑟崇拜他，把判断权交给了他。亚瑟的整个旅程，是在临死那一刻把这份判断权拿回来。
Lex 补了一层：亚瑟失去的不只是命，是一辈子的身份和归属感，他临死才发现这一切都建立在谎言之上的。豪瑟的回答是，看他怎么选，他还能做点好事。他得到了自己的救赎时刻。
Lex 追问：一辈子活得不好，不是个好人，这难道不是我们所有人都怕的事？豪瑟反问了一句：这不就是我们所有人害怕的东西吗。
你想住进去的世界，才是好世界
访谈前半段花了大量篇幅聊电影和文学，这部分其实藏着豪瑟创作方法论的底子。
他说自己小时候先爱上的是电影，八岁左右才开始正经读书，之后就在两者之间来回弹。他谈《教父》更偏爱第二部，理由跟艺术判断没什么关系：他自己是移民。他住过 Soho，爱小意大利那几段，也爱西西里那
《教父》里的埃利斯岛那个镜头，小维托出现的那一下，他觉得是电影史上最好的镜头之一。它给了你一种极其准确的电影感，让你明白初到美国是什么滋味。
他谈到一个"完美电影"的概念：表演是开创性的，剧本是开创性的，音乐是开创性的，镜头让人过目不忘，场景定义了你对某件事的全部想象。他的例子很直接：你不可能想到黑手党而不想到《教父》。
关于节奏，Lex 说这些老片慢。豪瑟的解释是生活变快了。七十年代到八十年代再到九十年代，观众看过的片子太多了，懂电影语言了，一个眼神就够交代"这人要背叛那人"，所以剪辑越来越快。他自己挺喜欢慢的。现在有高清电视，重看的时候不必一口气看完，长和慢不构成问题。
他谈《好家伙》时说了一句很关键的话：它某种意义上就像一款开放世界游戏，因为它是一段生活切片。他顺带说，《黑道家族》完全是《好家伙》的产物。《赌场风云》里他最爱的是结尾，那个冷到骨头里的处理：老大们讨论一个可能指证他们的人，其中一个人轻描淡写地说，依我看，为什么要冒险呢。下一场，那个人就被打死了。暴力的那种随意感，他觉得是神来之笔。
《真实罗曼史》是他心中最好的剧本之一。他的评价是：托尼·斯科特导得好，节奏极快，好笑，完全不可信，但你就是真的在乎这些角色。他由此说出一句我很认同的判断标准：
你喜欢一部电影，喜欢的是什么？是想待在那个世界里。那些世界从不存在，但你就是想待在这些别人造出来的假世界里。（丹·豪瑟）
这句话可以直接搬到游戏上。GTA 和 RDR 卖的东西里，任务清单排在最末，真正卖的，是一个你愿意待上几百小时的假世界。
战争片他给了两个答案。认真起来是苏联的《自己去看》，他说那大概是史上最强烈的电影。稍微不认真一点是《现代启示录》，而且他坚持只看最初的公映版，不喜欢后来的重剪，觉得原版更紧凑、更顺。他夸这部片子从第一场戏开始就是一场接一场的绝妙调度，人物惊人，台词漂亮。
《细细的红线》他有一段很有意思的坦白。他先看的电影，没看懂。后来读了小说，又读了很多关于这部片子剪辑的资料，才明白自己为什么没看懂：因为电影本身就说不通。书里相隔很久的两场战斗被剪成了一场，画面极美，配乐是影史最好的之一，但叙事上讲不通。他认为这片子依然非常美。
西部片他选了两部差不多同年的：《虎豹小霸王》和《日落黄沙》。他说没有《虎豹小霸王》，你无法想象任何一部 buddy film 的存在。
讲到这儿，最关键的细节来了。做《荒野大镖客》的时候，他小时候看过大量西部片，父亲爱看，电视上永远在放，他自认对这些东西挺熟。可真正要动手写一部西部题材的时候，他刻意不去狂刷西部片。
我试图不再看西部片，只想我自己喜欢它们什么、不喜欢什么、今天什么样的处理能成立、什么样的处理能放进一款游戏里。（丹·豪瑟）
所以一代更接近传统西部片，二代他刻意换方向，让它像是一个配得上的续作，而不是同一件事再做一遍。这个方法论值得记住：致敬一个类型，最好的方式是先把它清空，再用自己的判断重新组装。
他最想塞进游戏的那件事
被问到给外星人推荐什么书，他给了两本：《米德尔马契》和《战争与和平》。他的理由很朴素：如果只有一本书，你得选厚的。而这两本都有一个共同点，也是他一直想在游戏里做出来的东西：全部的生活都在里面。爱情、死亡、暴力、浪漫，整个人类经验的各种形态。
他顺带提了《名利场》，还特意说明是小说不是杂志，理由一样。
菲茨杰拉德和海明威他是"完全痴迷"过的，二十几岁那段。他觉得这两个人作为一对组合太精彩了：一个帮另一个被发现，然后一个先死，另一个在默默无闻中死去，然后被重新发现是天才，而先死的那个还活着，走向衰落。他说这两个人的关系本身就是一部小说。
战争文学他给了一个三本书的框架，一个国家一本，为的是拿到不同视角：美国的《细细的红线》，英国的《恋情的终结》，苏联的《生活与命运》。他认为最完整的是《生活与命运》，因为它同样是"全部的生活都在里面"。
格罗斯曼亲手经历过斯大林格勒。豪瑟说书里写特雷布林卡的那一段是他读过最令人心碎的文字之一，比几乎任何关于大屠杀的艺术作品都更让他感受到"当时在场是什么感觉"。他称这是一部了不起的人道主义作品。
他特别喜欢书里一段：斯大林时期，人人自危，所有人都知道革命承诺的东西不会来了。然后一群被困在斯大林格勒一栋楼里、打着巷战的人，知道自己反正要死了，于是在生命的最后时刻，活成了纯粹的、完美的马克思主义者，远离斯大林和他那一套荒唐。
你就会意识到，二十世纪最令人失望的事，跟共产主义的彻底失败脱不了干系。因为它曾是一个那么"美"的想法，然后一次又一次不成立。（丹·豪瑟）
Lex 补了一句：现代政治里人们谈共产主义，好像它必然导致暴行是件小事，但他不认为这很小。那里面有一种真实的理想主义，一种真实的同情心，本质上是"我们为什么不能好好相处"。二十世纪因此成了人性的一次大型实验，结论是这种同情心在规模化之后会被集中化的权力劫持。只要技术和环境合适，独裁者就会出现，做出与最初承诺完全相反的事。
豪瑟说他在这件事上想过很多，因为他被一群失望的共产主义者教过。八九年之后，那些英国共产党人被迫面对他们曾经相信的东西背后的真相。
他给了一个我认为可以裱起来的判断标准：现在所谓的左右，跟共产主义时代的那些词已经没多少关系了，这个世界变了。但有一个价值他愿意为之战斗：
只要任何一方开始朝思想控制走，就离开。那从来不是正确的结局。"你说错了话，你该被清除"，这件事永远不该成为我们倾向的方向。（丹·豪瑟）
聊到《1984》，他有一段很诚实的自白。这本书名气太大，大到像陈词滥调，他一度觉得不可能有那么好。疫情期间他才第一次真正读完，然后彻底被击中。他说书里那种假战争、那种一切布置都是针对主角一人的感觉，如果奥威尔见过互联网，大概会写出同样的东西。
他觉得《1984》像一个模拟版的互联网。顺带提一句，他对《美丽新世界》的评价是：写得很差。但他承认《美丽新世界》可能比《1984》更适用于二十一世纪。
父亲、虚无和一个糟糕的骗子
《美国开膛手》那本书的献词写在最前面：献给我的母亲和父亲，尤其是我的父亲，他在我写完这本书的时候去世了。
被问到从父亲身上学到什么，豪瑟列得很简短：出现在场。每天去上班。爱有创造性的事物。他父亲是律师，同时也是爵士乐手，两件事都尽力做到最好。但把家庭看得比这两件事都重要。
父亲看不惯权威。豪瑟说，作为一个律师，他骨子里尊敬那种"给当权者竖中指"的姿态。他永远站在弱者那边，站在荒谬那边，永远想回嘴，永远要说那句不合时宜的话，而且完全不在乎。豪瑟说自己把这一点继承了下来，大概对自己没什么好处，但让生活好玩一些。
不幸的是，是的。不太会闭嘴，不太会守规矩。（丹·豪瑟）
Lex 说，幸好他身上有这部分，因为它们全都流进了故事里。
关于死亡，他答得很实在。父亲那年五月去世，所以想得更多了。他不知道自己怕不怕，有些日子怕得厉害，有些日子一点都不怕。他很想活到看着孩子长大、安定下来。
剩下的部分他说得很坦白：有些日子他觉得自己跟宇宙有某种精神上的连接，完全不怕死；另一些日子，他觉得自己只是一次随机的好运气，随时会被愤怒的命运击倒，归于虚无，那种感觉让他恐惧。他承认自己人生中有很长一段时间被这件事折磨。
最近几年他倾向于相信生命有目的、有意义，人有一种精神性或灵魂层面的存在。他说自己不太确定有没有神这件事重不重要，反正有没有我们都该那样活。但他也承认，科学读多了，就容易陷进那种万事皆空的感觉里。
Lex 提到了他关于《呼啸山庄》的一段自述：他侥幸被赋予了一点感受宏大情绪的能力，所以他能深切地感受世界，有时候浪漫，有时候过度浪漫。他还说过一句被 Lex 记住的话：感受会毁掉你，但那是我们拥有的最好的东西。
被问这是天赋还是诅咒，豪瑟说这个问题有意思，因为显然两者都是。状态好的时候，你能感到活着，感到跟事物相连，能在人身上看到美，在经历里看到快乐，那当然好。状态差的时候，你感到被世界抛弃，被神或意识或命运丢下，那太糟了。他还加了一句自嘲：当他觉得自己是个糟糕的骗子时（大多数时候），那感觉也很糟。
Lex 问：能不能只要好的那一半？豪瑟的回答不假思索：不能，当然不能。所谓长大，就是接受任何处境、任何自我面向里，好的和坏的都在一起。
关于那个自我批判的声音算优点还是缺陷，他说了句很妙的话：这是我们接下来要重点投入的方向，缺陷型优点。它显然会变成缺陷，但它也能给你动力，让你不满足于现状，所以它也能变成优点。
他认为这种负面声音跟意识本身是同一件事，有时候他得挣扎着不让自己永远陷在负面里。他提到了互联网的设计逻辑：任何把东西放上网的人，都会收到五十条好评论和一条坏评论，而你只会记住那条坏的。他说他不知道有谁强大到不受影响。
你应该按重量来称这些东西，按质量去称太蠢了。可我们当然只盯着质量。（丹·豪瑟）
Lex 提了他和精神病学家保罗·孔蒂的一次激烈争论，孔蒂认为那种负面声音对创造性天才来说根本不需要。豪瑟的回答是他宁愿没有，但他确实带着它活到了现在。
关于变老，Lex 说真正的挑战是别滑进犬儒和虚无，那是一条太容易走的路。他认为英雄式的选择是变得更有希望，看到更多善。豪瑟说他同意，而且他自己就是这么过来的：他小时候的犬儒程度已经到顶了，七十年代末到九十年代初的英国不是个乐观天真的地方，很粗暴，他在其中也很粗暴。这些年他变得天真了，也更努力变得单纯，努力在人身上看到那种有缺陷的善。他的理由很简单：
另一条路不好玩。不友善不令人愉快。（丹·豪瑟）
他差点在南美被砍死
关于给年轻人的建议，豪瑟先给了一句自我定位：他过的是幸运的一生，他一直努力把生活搞砸，而命运总给他扔一根骨头。
具体建议有三条。第一，机会来的时候，接住它。他说这是自己少数做对的事。第二，别太早担心职业，先担心有没有一个圆润的智识生活，因为你一辈子都要待在自己的脑袋里，你越觉得自己脑子有意思，越觉得世界有意思，你越不容易把自己烦死。第三，本科别读职业性太强的专业，先读点别的，随便读点什么，之后再聚焦。他说这话是在反对几年前大家对理工科的集体迷恋，然后补了一句：现在 AI 大概会让它们全都变得无关紧要。
至于工作本身，他的说法是：工作没那么难。出现，热情，在场，帮别人，任何工作你都能行。
他讲了自己接住那个机会的过程。二十五岁，人生一团糟，一堆糟糕的决定，人在哥伦比亚，当地正打着仗。他最糟糕的决定之一是起得太早，因为警察九点才上班，而劫匪八点就开始。他在海滩上走着，前一天聊过的拉斯塔法里教徒过来搭话，然后两个人过来跟那个人说话。他分不清是来要债的还是那人把他卖了，但他注意到一个人拿着砍刀，另一个人拿着一把坏掉的枪。
我觉得这不太妙。（丹·豪瑟）
他撒腿就跑，穿着那双可笑的鞋在海滩上狂奔，跑到路边，跳进一辆出租车，喊：带我去任何地方。司机回头看见拿着砍刀的人在追，看了他一眼。他说：不不不，他们不是我朋友，带我离开这儿。
结果他唯一的伤是在下车后踩到石头上划破了脚。他跑进一家网吧，那是 1998 年底，收到了一个去纽约做六周游戏的机会。他的判断是：再在南美待下去，我大概会把自己搞死。于是他去了纽约，那边正在组建 Rockstar，他负责写任务简报之类的东西，帮忙定调子，然后就留下来了。
他说自己本来打算待一年，因为纽约挺好玩的。他还补了一个时代细节：那是朱利安尼的全盛期，他还没变成疯子，你去酒吧会被告知不许跳舞，因为当局在压制纽约的娱乐性。所以那会儿其实没伦敦好玩。但纽约的能量依然惊人，他第一次接触到纽约资本主义的那种疯狂。
被问到哥哥山姆，他的评价很集中：是他的驱动力，是他早期的视野。是山姆看明白了游戏会变成下一件大事，而在那个年代，人们会当面嘲笑这个判断。有一个足够强硬的人说"不，我们继续走"，然后有底气把这些大项目推下去，这很关键。
技术还没到终点
关于游戏的未来，豪瑟说他看自己的作品，看到的全是问题，看到的全是可以做得更好的地方。他相信他们现在做的某些东西会让玩家看到没见过的东西，相信游戏能变得更活。
他给了一个电影史的类比：电影从 1895 年前后起步，到三十年代有了声音，很快找到了现代形态，1939 年就开始拍彩色片。一部现代电影跟 1939 年的电影，本质上没多大差别。游戏不一样，技术部件太多，还在很前面，可以往各种好玩的方向走。
关于 AI 能不能帮忙做世界生成，他的回答是肯定的，但有限。用对了是好工具，用错了会产出一大堆通用的东西。他加了一段我很喜欢的经验之谈：他在游戏行业二十九年，这二十九年里，"那项能让做游戏更便宜更容易的技术"永远即将到来，而实际发生的是游戏变得更好、也更贵。
至于给独立开发者的建议，他给了两条路：要么带着一个小团队用很低的成本自己做，要么加入一家你认为做法正确的公司。他说得很直白：想做电影感的东西，就需要资源。一旦涉及演员、动捕、大场面，就一定要花钱。所以你得想清楚要去哪家公司，以及怎么进去。
访谈最后，Lex 问了那个不太好回答的问题：这一切的意义是什么。豪瑟的答案很短：
来看宇宙。最容易成立的解释是，我们是被宇宙设计出来观看它自己的，并用有意思的方式对它加以评论。（丹·豪瑟）
爱在其中扮演什么角色？
它是唯一让这件事值得做的东西。其他一切，所有物质层面的东西，都无关紧要。所以唯一有价值的就是这些非物质的东西。对我来说，形而上学永远压过物理学。（丹·豪瑟）
节目结尾，豪瑟特意做了一次澄清。他说他一向喜欢把这件事说得非常清楚：从来不是我，从来都是我跟真正有才华的人坐在一起，他们做出了惊人的东西。
Lex 最后引了一句海明威，他和豪瑟都喜欢的作家：这个世界会击碎每一个人，然后，很多人在破碎的地方变得更强。
把方法拆下来
这期访谈里最实用的部分，是他怎么造一个人。方法可以拆成能照着做的步骤。
- 先从一句话开始，别急着写台词。一句话的人物设定，然后用几个月时间从各个角度追问：他会怎么反应？他跟这个世界是互相放大还是互相抵消？
- 把角色放进"格格不入"的位置。让他是新来的、外来的、刚搬进这片区域的。玩家的陌生感和角色的陌生感同频，代入感就自然产生了。
- 写下他的三张清单。他的强项、他的弱点、他有多变态。再加一条最重要的：除了钱，他愿意为什么去死。愿意为什么去死，决定了这个角色有没有人味。
- 用一句台词救活他。先别写整场戏，先找到那一句。豪瑟说，只要有一句话让他觉得对，角色就会在他脑子里活起来。找到那句话，剩下的才写得动。
- 允许自己长时间"不干活"。攒笔记，发邮件给自己，写在本子上，几个月不写正文。然后把所有零碎倒进一个文档，看有没有东西能连起来。他知道这不体面，但这是他唯一的工作方式。
- 给自己设一个假的死线，并且告诉所有人。他的做法是提前宣布交稿日期，然后在前一个周末熬夜把三十页揉出来。如果不告诉别人，这件事永远不会发生。
- 砍东西的时候，先问这是不是"太狠了"。被砍掉的往往是最有力量的部分，因为太狠。他自己也承认，让角色讨喜一点是商业上正确的决定，但心里会一直记着那一版。
- 致敬一个类型之前，先把它清空。决定写西部故事时，他刻意停止看西部片，只回想自己喜欢什么、不喜欢什么、今天什么能成立。输入太多，出来的就是复制品。
- 判断一个世界好不好，用一个标准：你想不想住在里面。这一条可以拿去评价你自己做的东西。
- 关于 AI 写东西，把注意力放在最后那 5%。前 90% 让人听起来像人，这部分已经被做完了。剩下的 5% 会变成 95% 的工作量，而那块地方，目前还是人的地盘。
- 做完了就放手。他跟亚瑟告别的方式是必须先放下，否则开不了下一个项目。你越纠缠上一件作品，下一件就越难开始。
- 机会来了就接住，别先评估配不配。他二十五岁在南美差点被砍，第二天进了网吧，收到去纽约的机会，直接去了。他没先问自己够不够格。
You said that Red Dead Redemption 2, in your opinion, is the best thing you’ve ever done.
您说过《荒野大镖客：救赎 2》在您看来是您做过的最好的事情。
00:00 I think there’s a strong case to be made that it’s the greatest game of all time.
我认为有充分的理由证明这是有史以来最伟大的游戏。
What are the elements that make that game truly great, do you think?
您认为是什么元素让这款游戏真正出色？
People searching for meaning within, amongst the violence.
人们在暴力中寻找内在的意义。
00:12 I think the West and all of the themes around the West really lend themselves to that.
我认为西方以及围绕西方的所有主题确实适合这一点。
And then the gunplay was fantastic, and the horses were incredible.
然后枪战非常精彩，马匹也令人难以置信。
I think we got to spend, a smaller group of us, working on it from day one, coming up with some weird, wacky ideas that we got to embed in the game.
我认为我们必须花费一小部分人从第一天起就开始研究它，提出一些我们必须嵌入到游戏中的奇怪的想法。
And I think it was helpful that we got to be very creative before it had a full team on it.
我认为，在组建完整的团队之前，我们必须非常有创意，这很有帮助。
You lock yourself in a room and get anchovies and onion pizza and Diet Cokes?
你把自己锁在一个房间里，然后买凤尾鱼、洋葱披萨和健怡可乐？
Yes.
是的。
Is this accurate information?
这是准确的信息吗？
Very accurate.
非常准确。
Why do you think there was so much excitement about GTA IV, GTA V, and now GTA VI?
您认为为什么《侠盗猎车手 IV》、《侠盗猎车手 V》和现在的《侠盗猎车手 VI》如此令人兴奋？
I think we did a really good job of constantly innovating.
我认为我们在不断创新方面做得非常好。
00:50 The games always felt different.
游戏总是给人不同的感觉。
People have very strong feelings, “I like this one.” “I didn’t like that one as much,” because they are pretty different.
人们有非常强烈的感觉，“我喜欢这个”。 “我不太喜欢那个，”因为它们非常不同。
So you would, there would be simultaneously where you know what’s going to happen.
所以你会同时知道会发生什么。
It’s Grand Theft Auto, you know it’s going to be a game about being a criminal, but the way it’s going to be a game is going to change quite a lot.
这是《侠盗猎车手》，你知道这将是一款关于成为罪犯的游戏，但它的游戏方式将会发生很大的变化。
The number one question from the internet.
来自互联网的第一个问题。
01:08 It is so ridiculous, but I must ask.
这真是太荒谬了，但我必须问。
Have you seen Gavin?
你见过加文吗？
01:17 The following is a conversation with Dan Houser, a legendary video game creator, co-founder of Rockstar Games, and the creative force behind Grand Theft Auto and Red Dead Redemption series, which includes some of the best-selling games of all time and some of the greatest games of all time.
以下是与传奇视频游戏创作者、Rockstar Games 联合创始人 Dan Houser 的对话，他也是《侠盗猎车手》和《荒野大镖客：救赎》系列背后的创意力量，其中包括一些有史以来最畅销的游戏和一些有史以来最伟大的游戏。
Both Red Dead Redemption 1 and 2 have some of the deepest, most complex, and heart-wrenching characters and storylines ever created in video games.
《荒野大镖客：救赎 1》和《荒野大镖客 2》都拥有电子游戏史上最深刻、最复杂、最令人心碎的角色和故事情节。
Dan has started a new company, Absurdventures, great name, that is creating some incredible new worlds in multiple forms, including books, comic books, audio series, and yes, video games.
丹创办了一家新公司，Absurdventures，名字很棒，正在以多种形式创造一些令人难以置信的新世界，包括书籍、漫画书、音频系列，当然还有视频游戏。
02:01 That includes A Better Paradise, which is a dystopian near-future world with a super intelligent AI, American Caper, which is an insanely chaotic, violent, dark, satirical world, and Absurdiverse, which is a comedic action-adventure world.
其中包括《美好天堂》，这是一个拥有超智能人工智能的反乌托邦近未来世界；《美国惊魂》，这是一个疯狂混乱、暴力、黑暗、讽刺的世界；以及《荒诞派》，这是一个喜剧动作冒险世界。
I’m excited to explore all three of these.
我很高兴探索这三个方面。
I have spent hundreds of hours in worlds that Dan has helped create, so this conversation was an incredible honor for me.
我在丹帮助创造的世界中度过了数百个小时，所以这次谈话对我来说是一种难以置信的荣幸。
And on top of that, Dan and I talked a lot after and in the days since, and he has been just a wonderful human being.
最重要的是，丹和我在之后的日子里聊了很多，他是一个很棒的人。
I’m just at a loss of words.
我只是无言以对。
I feel like the luckiest kid in the world.
我觉得自己是世界上最幸运的孩子。
This is the Lex Fridman Podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on.
为了支持它，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商，您还可以在其中找到联系我、提出问题、提供反馈等的链接。
02:58 And now, dear friends, here’s Dan Houser.
现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是丹·豪瑟。
03:03 You’ve helped create some of the most incredible characters, stories, and open worlds in video game history.
您帮助创造了电子游戏历史上一些最令人难以置信的角色、故事和开放世界。
But when you grew up in the late ’70s and ’80s, open-world video games wasn’t a thing.
但当你在 70 年代末和 80 年代长大时，开放世界电子游戏还不算什么。
So you’ve credited literature and film as early inspiration.
所以你认为文学和电影是早期的灵感来源。
So let’s talk about film first, if we can.
如果可以的话，让我们先谈谈电影。
Sure.
当然。
What to you are some of the candidates for the greatest films of all time, maybe films that were highly influential on you?
对你来说，有史以来最伟大的电影的候选者，也许是对你影响很大的电影？
03:24 I mean, Godfather.
我是说，教父。
Well, I think for me, probably Godfather II more than Godfather I, but I love both of them.
好吧，我想对我来说，可能《教父 II》比《教父 I》更胜一筹，但我爱他们两个。
03:32 But I love the divided story in Godfather II.
但我喜欢《教父2》中分裂的故事。
And as a migrant, I used to live in Soho, I love the bits in Little Italy, and I love the sections in Sicily.
作为一名移民，我曾经住在苏荷区，我喜欢小意大利的那些地方，也喜欢西西里岛的那些地方。
So I think…
所以我认为……
And the Ellis Island bit is just one of the best shots in all of cinema.
埃利斯岛片段是所有电影中最好的镜头之一。
When you see little Vito turning up in Ellis Island and you get that shot, it’s amazing.
当你看到小维托出现在埃利斯岛并拍到这张照片时，真是太棒了。
It gives you a really good cinematic sense of what it must have been like to arrive in America.
它给你一种真正的电影般的感觉，让你感受到到达美国的感觉。
How much of the greatness of Godfather do you think is the writing?
你认为《教父》的伟大之处有多少是在于写作？
04:04 How much is the cinematography and how much is the acting?
摄影多少钱，表演多少钱？
You got De Niro, you got young Pacino.
你有德尼罗，你有年轻的帕西诺。
Well, Coppola started as a screenwriter, so I think he wrote, at least co-wrote the script.
好吧，科波拉最初是一名编剧，所以我认为他写了，至少是共同写了剧本。
04:14 So it’s almost like the writing and directing almost become the same thing.
所以写作和导演几乎变成了同一件事。
But it’s one of those films, both of them are those films, which I was thinking about this idea of a perfect film where everything’s good, where the acting’s seminal, where the writing’s seminal, where the music is seminal, where the shots are so memorable, where the scenes, you know, define what you think about things.
但这是其中的一部电影，两部都是这样的电影，我正在考虑一部完美电影的想法，一切都很好，表演具有开创性，写作具有开创性，音乐具有开创性，镜头令人难忘，场景，你知道，定义了你对事物的看法。
It’s impossible to think about the mafia and not think about The Godfather.
想到黑手党而不想到《教父》是不可能的。
What about the pacing?
节奏怎么样？
04:43 It is a bit slow.
有点慢。
You have, you have movies like 2001 Space Odyssey, slow.
你有，你有像《2001太空漫游》这样的电影，速度很慢。
Yes.
是的。
It used to be, back in my day, it used to be slow.
在我那个时代，它曾经很慢。
Life got faster.
生活变得更快了。
04:53 Life just got, you know…
生活才刚刚开始，你知道……
As, I think, as we moved from the ’70s into the ’80s, into the ’90s, people had seen so many films, they just started to edit films faster.
我认为，当我们从 70 年代进入 80 年代、进入 90 年代时，人们看了很多电影，他们开始更快地剪辑电影。
And people understood cinematic storytelling so much that you could do things much quicker, you could show a look and just that meant you realized that person was going to betray the other person.
人们非常了解电影叙事，以至于你可以更快地做事，你可以展示一个眼神，这意味着你意识到这个人会背叛另一个人。
They just edited films much quicker.
他们只是剪辑电影的速度更快了。
But I quite like the slowness.
但我很喜欢这种缓慢的感觉。
I think these days with modern, you know, high-quality televisions, you don’t have to necessarily watch these films in one sitting, particularly when you’re rewatching them.
我认为现在有了现代的、高质量的电视，你不必一口气看完这些电影，特别是当你重新观看它们时。
So it doesn’t bother me that they’re long and slow.
所以它们又长又慢并不困扰我。
Speaking of faster, life getting faster, I’m sure another influential movie was Goodfellas, Scorsese.
说到更快，生活变得更快，我确信另一部有影响力的电影是斯科塞斯的《好家伙》。
05:28 That’s faster, right?
这样更快，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
A mixture of crime and humor.
犯罪与幽默的混合体。
And almost like an open-world game in some ways, in that it’s this slice of life.
在某些方面几乎就像一个开放世界游戏，因为它就是生活的一部分。
05:40 You see…
你看……
I think that probably changed cinema at the tail end of the ’80s, early ’90s, more than any other film.
我认为这对 80 年代末、90 年代初的电影业的改变可能比任何其他电影都要大。
And it’s so iconic.
它是如此具有标志性。
In some ways, I prefer Casino, but the invention is really in Goodfellas.
在某些方面，我更喜欢Casino，但发明实际上是在Goodfellas。
I love the end of Casino, you know, the use of voiceover, the way you saw them being criminals and being normal people, you know, it changed everything.
我喜欢《赌场》的结局，你知道，画外音的使用，你看到他们是罪犯和普通人的方式，你知道，它改变了一切。
I mean, The Sopranos obviously is completely inspired by Goodfellas.
我的意思是，《黑道家族》显然完全受到《好家伙》的启发。
Yeah, Casino has, first of all, the character of Sharon Stone.
是的，《赌场》首先有莎朗·斯通这个角色。
06:12 I mean, everything.
我的意思是，一切。
The look, the clothes…
长相、衣着……
06:17 …The music.
……音乐。
I would say one of the most memorable moments in film for me is the meeting in the desert.
我想说电影中对我来说最难忘的时刻之一就是在沙漠中的相遇。
06:20 I mean, just the drama building up to that between…
我的意思是，只是在……之间形成的戏剧性。
Dig another hole.
再挖一个洞。
Yeah.
是的。
06:29 The environment, the city, speaking of open world and creating a character from the city.
环境、城市，谈到开放世界并从城市中创造角色。
It’s one of the great Vegas films.
这是维加斯最伟大的电影之一。
I think the great Vegas film.
我认为很棒的维加斯电影。
06:36 There are bits that I always love.
有些片段是我一直喜欢的。
At the end, when everything’s wrapping up, and on the one hand you see the Robert De Niro character, he’s still good at making money, so they let him return to normal life.
最后，当一切都结束了，一方面你看到罗伯特·德尼罗这个角色，他仍然很擅长赚钱，所以他们让他回归正常生活。
But then you get that brilliant scene when all of the mob bosses from back home, they’re discussing all these people who may or may not be able to implicate them.
但是当所有来自家乡的黑帮老大都在讨论所有这些可能会或可能不会牵连他们的人时，你会看到一个精彩的场景。
And then there’s that incredibly cold line where one of them, they’re thinking about the old, you know, I think it’s the casino manager, and one of them just goes, “Ah, the way I see it, why take a chance?” And then the next thing, he’s just shot.
然后有一条令人难以置信的冷线，其中一个人在思考旧的，你知道，我认为这是赌场经理，其中一个人只是说，“啊，在我看来，为什么要冒险呢？”然后接下来的事情，他就被枪杀了。
Right?
正确的？
The brutality of it all is just brilliant.
这一切的残酷性真是太棒了。
I don’t know, I probably have to disagree with you on Vegas.
我不知道，在维加斯我可能不得不不同意你的观点。
07:13 There are at least some competitors.
至少有一些竞争对手。
You got, what, Nicolas Cage leaving Las Vegas?
你知道，什么，尼古拉斯·凯奇离开拉斯维加斯？
I mean, falling in love with a prostitute.
我的意思是，爱上一个妓女。
You also, you’ve written some of the great crime stories ever.
你也写过一些有史以来最伟大的犯罪故事。
Thank you.
谢谢。
And in some sense, there are love stories in there.
从某种意义上说，里面有爱情故事。
07:26 And you’ve talked about…
你已经谈到了……
…Being a bit of a romantic yourself.
......你自己有点浪漫。
Appreciating the depth of love stories in literature at the very least.
至少欣赏文学中爱情故事的深度。
And there is a dark kind of love story between an alcoholic and a prostitute.
还有一个酒鬼和妓女之间的黑暗爱情故事。
You got an Oscar for that.
你因此获得了奥斯卡奖。
I think he did for that, didn’t he?
我想他就是为了这个，不是吗？
Plus there’s the caricature of the drug world of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.
另外还有拉斯维加斯恐惧与厌恶毒品世界的漫画。
07:47 That’s an interesting one.
这很有趣。
I love the book so much.
我非常喜欢这本书。
07:52 I was obsessed by it when I was about 17, 18.
当我17、18岁的时候，我就被它迷住了。
And I enjoyed the film, but I preferred the book.
我喜欢这部电影，但我更喜欢这本书。
Has a Hunter S.
有一个猎人S。
07:59 Thompson type of character ever made it into any of your stories?
汤普森类型的角色曾出现在你的故事中吗？
No, but one of the things we’re working on now, there’s sort of an English version of Hunter S.
不，但我们现在正在做的事情之一是，Hunter S 的英文版。
08:03 Thompson if he was also a market gardener.
汤普森如果他也是一名市场园丁的话。
I love that persona.
我喜欢那个角色。
But it’s kind of…
但这有点……
it’s hard.
这很难。
If you make him American, it’s hard for it not just to be Hunter S.
如果你让他成为美国人，那不仅仅是亨特·S 就很难了。
Thompson.
汤普森.
Is this an American caper?
这是美国式的胡作非为吗？
No, it’s in this animated show we’re developing in this sort of comedy world we’re working on called Absurdiverse, and it’s in one of the stories in that.
不，是在这部动画节目中，我们正在制作一个名为《荒诞宇宙》的喜剧世界，它就在其中的一个故事中。
What is Absurdiverse?
什么是荒诞派？
Absurdiverse is a comedy universe we’re developing that will be an open-world video game and then some loosely adjacent stories that we’re going to make as animated TV shows or possibly animated movies.
Absurdiverse 是我们正在开发的一个喜剧宇宙，它将是一个开放世界的视频游戏，然后是一些松散相邻的故事，我们将把它们制作成动画电视节目或可能的动画电影。
08:31 We’re still thinking that all through.
我们仍然在思考这一点。
And we’re building the game up in San Rafael at the moment, and it’s early days, but it’s looking very exciting.
目前我们正在圣拉斐尔开发这款游戏，虽然还处于早期阶段，但看起来非常令人兴奋。
And it’s trying to be…
它正在努力成为……
like, trying to make a game that feels a little bit like a living sitcom.
就像，尝试制作一款感觉有点像生活情景喜剧的游戏。
Is there some drama and tragedy at the edges or is it pure comedy?
边缘是否有一些戏剧性和悲剧性，或者是纯粹的喜剧？
I hope it’s got comedy, cynicism, heart, drama, and some amusing life lessons.
我希望它有喜剧、愤世嫉俗、心灵、戏剧和一些有趣的人生教训。
09:06 Otherwise, you can’t just have jokes for 40 hours, it won’t work.
不然你不能只讲笑话40个小时，那是不行的。
Okay, so comedy needs some darkness.
好吧，喜剧需要一些黑暗。
Well, I think it needs story.
嗯，我认为这需要故事。
09:19 One of my favorite comedies of this century is The Office because it was incredibly funny, but also because it had narrative and heart underneath the cynicism.
本世纪我最喜欢的喜剧之一是《办公室》，因为它非常有趣，但也因为它在愤世嫉俗的背后有叙事和内心。
I think with narrative, you get a drive alongside jokes.
我认为通过叙事，你会在笑话的同时获得动力。
And there’s going to be an open-world video game- …
将会有一款开放世界的视频游戏——……
09:34 in that world.
在那个世界里。
When?
什么时候？
Two, three, four years.
两年，三年，四年。
09:39 Still thinking that through.
还在想到底。
So what’s the process of getting from the idea to the end of a video game?
那么一款电子游戏从产生想法到最终完成的过程是怎样的呢？
09:42 Why does it take so long to get it right?
为什么需要这么长时间才能得到正确的结果？
That’s an interesting question.
这是一个有趣的问题。
09:48 I think the scale at which they’re built, you could argue it the other way: why is it so quick?
我认为它们的建造规模，你可以用另一种方式争论：为什么这么快？
You’re really building, in one go, a world, a city, and 40 hours of entertainment cut through it.
你真的是一次性建造了一个世界、一座城市，并且 40 小时的娱乐贯穿其中。
These things are massive four-dimensional mosaics that are intensely complicated and have to work in lots of different ways.
这些东西是巨大的四维马赛克，非常复杂，并且必须以许多不同的方式工作。
I think that’s us being kind of aggressive on the timeline.
我认为我们在时间表上有点激进。
We’re taking a tangent upon a tangent upon a tangent…
我们正在切线上切线……
10:15 …But I have to return to some films.
......但我必须回到一些电影。
Let me just list a few of my favorites.
让我列出一些我最喜欢的。
So, first of all, you said you love great war books…
所以，首先，你说你喜欢伟大的战争书籍……
…And movies.
……还有电影。
So we have to throw in Platoon from Oliver Stone and Apocalypse Now, for me at least.
所以我们必须加入奥利弗·斯通的《野战排》和《现代启示录》，至少对我来说是这样。
Of course.
当然。
There’s more crime, fast-moving crime movies.
有更多犯罪、快速发展的犯罪电影。
10:35 Like Scarface.
就像疤面煞星一样。
I also love True Romance.
我也喜欢《真实的浪漫》。
Love True Romance.
爱真正的浪漫。
10:42 Possibly the best…
可能是最好的……
one of the best scripts ever written.
有史以来最好的剧本之一。
Written, of course- …
当然是写的——……
10:46 by Quentin Tarantino.
昆汀·塔伦蒂诺。
What do you love about True Romance?
您喜欢《真实浪漫》的哪些方面？
I think sometimes, depending on the day, depending on the bar and how much alcohol I had, I will say True Romance is the best movie ever made.
我想有时，根据日子，根据酒吧和我喝了多少酒，我会说《真正的浪漫》是有史以来最好的电影。
True Romance is super fun.
真正的浪漫非常有趣。
10:59 Tony Scott was a really good director, so it moves at a really good speed.
托尼·斯科特是一位非常出色的导演，所以它的进展速度非常快。
It’s funny, it’s completely unbelievable, but you really care about the characters.
这很有趣，完全令人难以置信，但你真的很关心这些角色。
It’s the kind of, you know, this world that obviously doesn’t exist, but you feel it does exist.
你知道，这个世界显然不存在，但你却感觉它确实存在。
The characters are larger than life.
人物比生活更伟大。
The dialogue is unbelievable.
对话令人难以置信。
You could just sit and watch them talk all day long.
你可以整天坐着看他们说话。
And, you know, it’s amusing.
而且，你知道，这很有趣。
You just want to live in that world.
你只是想生活在那个世界里。
I was thinking about, like, what do you like about films?
我在想，比如，你喜欢电影的什么？
It’s the idea to be in a world.
这是身处一个世界的想法。
They’re not real.
它们不是真的。
They’re never real, but you want to be in these fake worlds that people have invented.
它们从来都不是真实的，但你想置身于人们发明的这些虚假世界中。
And I think you said that what makes a great world is having a large cast of characters.
我想你说过，一个伟大的世界是拥有大量的角色。
11:34 And I think that movie is a good example.
我认为那部电影就是一个很好的例子。
I mean, you have Christopher Walken with the sort of legendary super racist discussion.
我的意思是，克里斯托弗·沃肯（Christopher Walken）进行了传奇般的超级种族主义讨论。
Yeah.
是的。
11:45 Rant.
咆哮。
Rant.
咆哮。
Dennis Hopper is just sort of a dream dad.
丹尼斯·霍珀（Dennis Hopper）是一位梦想中的父亲。
Yeah.
是的。
11:48 Yeah, dream dad.
是啊，梦想爸爸。
And just that interaction is legendary.
正是这种互动才具有传奇色彩。
You got even Brad Pitt as a pothead on the couch.
连布拉德·皮特都坐在沙发上当瘾君子。
Gary Oldman.
加里·奥德曼。
Gary Oldman.
加里·奥德曼。
As a rasta.
作为一个拉斯塔。
Yeah, and you have, I mean, a real love story.
是的，我是说，你有一个真实的爱情故事。
11:59 Like, a real, genuine, pure love can survive in any context.
就像，真正的、真诚的、纯粹的爱可以在任何情况下生存。
And it’s just sweet.
这很甜蜜。
12:08 Their love story is very sweet in that film.
他们的爱情故事在那部电影中非常甜蜜。
It’s endearing.
很可爱。
Elvis is a character.
埃尔维斯是一个人物。
12:12 It’s kind of like a mini GTA type game.
这有点像迷你 GTA 类型的游戏。
Some of the same beauty, the comedy, the love.
一些同样的美丽、喜剧、爱情。
Yeah, and it’s all crossed with Play It Again, Sam.
是的，这一切都与“再玩一次”有关，山姆。
12:19 It sort of feels a bit like that with the Elvis character.
这感觉有点像猫王这个角色。
What about the greatest war film?
最伟大的战争片怎么样？
12:23 What would it be for you?
对你来说会是什么？
Greatest war film?
最伟大的战争片？
12:27 If I’m feeling serious, it would be a Russian film called Come and See.
如果我认真的话，我会选择一部名为《来看看》的俄罗斯电影。
It’s probably the most intense film ever made.
这可能是有史以来最激烈的电影。
And if I’m feeling slightly less serious, Apocalypse Now, and I would always want to watch the original cut.
如果我感觉不那么严肃的话，《现代启示录》，我总是想看原版。
I don’t prefer the re-edits.
我不喜欢重新编辑。
I like the original first release.
我喜欢最初的版本。
I think it’s tighter and slicker and works the best.
我认为它更紧、更光滑，而且效果最好。
Yeah, of course, Apocalypse Now is this hallucinatory journey into darkness, I think, and madness.
是的，当然，我认为《现代启示录》是一段通往黑暗和疯狂的幻觉之旅。
Yeah, but from your first- …scene onwards, it’s just got these amazing set piece after set piece and again, incredible characters, brilliant dialogue.
是的，但是从你的第一个场景开始，它就不断地出现这些令人惊叹的场景，令人难以置信的角色，精彩的对话。
Some of the greatest films about war reveal that war is not what it seems, and there are different ways of doing that.
一些关于战争的最伟大的电影揭示了战争并不像看上去的那样，而且有不同的方法可以做到这一点。
13:04 And you’ve talked about different books.
你也谈到了不同的书。
The Thin Red Line is another book…
《细细的红线》是另一本书……
…
……
And movie that shows that.
电影也证明了这一点。
Yeah, and I watched the movie years before I read the book, and I didn’t understand the movie.
是的，我在读这本书之前几年就看过这部电影，但我不明白这部电影。
13:19 And then I read the book, and I read a lot about the editing of the movie, and I understood why I didn’t understand the movie, and that’s because the movie makes no sense.
然后我读了这本书，我读了很多关于电影剪辑的内容，我明白了为什么我看不懂这部电影，那是因为这部电影没有意义。
It is beautifully shot, and the music is one of the best film scores of all time.
它的拍摄精美，音乐是有史以来最好的电影配乐之一。
But they edited two different battle scenes into one battle in a way that they’re spread apart by ages in the book to assemble…
但他们将两个不同的战斗场景编辑成一场战斗，方式是按照书中的年代分开，然后组合起来……
I think they filmed the book pretty much verbatim.
我认为他们几乎逐字拍摄了这本书。
It would’ve been like a six-hour movie, then edited this impressionistic thing that’s incredibly beautiful but doesn’t necessarily make narrative sense at the end of it.
这就像一部六个小时的电影，然后剪辑了这个印象派的东西，它非常美丽，但最终不一定具有叙事意义。
But the film is still very beautiful.
但影片还是非常好看的。
And in terms of Westerns, what’s the greatest?
就西部片而言，最伟大的是什么？
14:00 The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, Unforgiven?
善、恶、丑，不可饶恕？
Those are for me, maybe even Django Unchained.
这些是给我的，甚至可能是《被解放的姜戈》。
You’ve mentioned Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
你提到了《布奇·卡西迪和圣丹斯小子》。
I think for me it’s two films from, I think, pretty much the same year: Butch Cassidy and The Wild Bunch.
我认为对我来说，这是几乎同一年的两部电影：《虎豹小霸王》和《狂野邦奇》。
I love Robert Redford, rest in peace.
我爱罗伯特·雷德福，安息吧。
That film, it’s just impossible to imagine any buddy film without Butch Cassidy.
那部电影，很难想象任何一部没有布奇·卡西迪的兄弟电影。
Is it Paul Newman, Robert Redford, and Clint Eastwood for you also?
保罗·纽曼、罗伯特·雷德福和克林特·伊斯特伍德也适合你吗？
14:23 Has that impacted your writing on Red Dead?
这对你在 Red Dead 中的创作有影响吗？
I love Unforgiven, but the truth is with Red Dead, I’d seen a lot of Westerns as a kid.
我喜欢《不可饶恕》，但事实上，我小时候看过很多西部片。
14:29 My dad watched lots of Westerns.
我爸爸看了很多西部片。
They were always on TV.
他们总是在电视上。
You know, I felt I knew quite a bit about Westerns.
你知道，我觉得我对西部片了解很多。
And then, you know, I had to start thinking about writing one for work.
然后，你知道，我不得不开始考虑为工作写一篇。
And I deliberately did not binge on Westerns.
我故意不沉迷于西部片。
I tried to watch no more Westerns and just think about what I liked about them, what I didn’t like about them, what would be a take that would work today and would work within the confines of a game.
我试着不再看西部片，只是想一想我喜欢它们的什么，我不喜欢它们的什么，什么样的镜头在今天行得通，并且在游戏的范围内行得通。
And I think Red Dead 1 was a slightly more traditional Western.
我认为《荒野大镖客 1》是一部稍微更传统的西部片。
And then having done that, I tried to take Red Dead 2 in a different direction so that it felt like a worthy successor.
完成之后，我尝试将《荒野大镖客 2》推向不同的方向，让其感觉像是一个有价值的继承者。
It didn’t just feel like more of the same.
它不仅仅是感觉更像一样。
From movies to video games, when did you first fall in love with video games?
从电影到电子游戏，您是什么时候第一次爱上电子游戏的？
15:17 Literature was the first love?
文学是初恋？
I mean, film…
我的意思是，电影...
15:24 No, films.
不，电影。
Films.
电影。
Films was always the, was always…
电影永远是，永远是……
15:26 Well, what I loved first as a kid was films.
嗯，我小时候最喜欢的是电影。
I began reading books properly aged about eight.
我八岁左右就开始读书了。
I was watching films long before that.
在那之前很久我就开始看电影了。
Nice.
好的。
And then probably it was always bouncing between the two, which I preferred.
然后可能它总是在两者之间跳来跳去，这是我更喜欢的。
15:40 I think they’re good at different things.
我认为他们擅长不同的事情。
Games, I played and, above all, watched a lot of games as a kid, as being a young kid and, you know, other people playing them.
游戏，我玩过，最重要的是，小时候看过很多游戏，小时候，你知道，其他人也玩过这些游戏。
And I obviously liked the core thing games do, which is you press a button and something happens.
我显然很喜欢游戏的核心功能，那就是按下按钮就会发生一些事情。
They’re responsive, they’re alive, and that’s captivating.
他们反应灵敏，充满活力，这很迷人。
And then the competitive angle of games is fun, or you know, beating this, beating that, winning this.
然后游戏的竞争角度很有趣，或者你知道，打败这个，打败那个，赢得这个。
That was fun as well.
那也很有趣。
Sometimes obsessively so.
有时甚至如此痴迷。
You know, I remember being completely addicted at one point when I was, should have been studying, for months at a time, to Tetris on a Game Boy.
你知道，我记得有一次完全上瘾了，当时我应该在 Game Boy 上学习俄罗斯方块，一次学习几个月。
16:20 You know, I liked games and I liked interactivity and I liked the movement to this digital world that’s really emerged for me pretty much as soon as I left college.
你知道，我喜欢游戏，我喜欢互动，我喜欢数字世界的运动，这种运动在我离开大学后就真正出现在我身上。
But I didn’t love it.
但我不喜欢它。
And then I really fell in love with games when I was properly making them, probably as late as like 2001.
然后当我真正制作游戏时，我真的爱上了游戏，大概是在 2001 年。
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
And when I suddenly began to see…
当我突然开始看到……
16:41 First of all, my mind, you know, that’s a whole another story, but just suddenly saw what they could do and could be and what this chance was to be one of the people involved in making these things that was this, you know, where you were really kind of breaking trail into the future, it felt like.
首先，我的想法，你知道，那完全是另一个故事，但突然看到他们能做什么、能成为什么，以及成为参与制作这些东西的人之一的机会是什么，你知道，你真的在为未来开辟道路，感觉就像是。
And I think that was when I really went, “These are amazing.” And that’s when I really fell in love with…
我想那是我真正感叹“这些太棒了”的时候。就在那时我真正爱上了……
I could see it in moments and suddenly you could make this whole experience.
我可以在瞬间看到它，突然之间你就可以体验到这一切。
So that was really the moment for me.
所以这对我来说确实是一个时刻。
Yeah, of course, because you were a pioneer of open world games that are so narrative driven.
是的，当然，因为你是叙事驱动的开放世界游戏的先驱。
17:12 So it’s like you didn’t have too many examples.
所以看来你没有太多例子。
Yeah, before that it was PS1 or even before that.
是的，在那之前是 PS1，甚至更早。
17:21 Games looked terrible.
游戏看起来很糟糕。
You know, that you would be like, “It’s eight pixels, it’s a car.” You know, it was not a car.
你知道，你会说，“它有八个像素，它是一辆汽车。”你知道，那不是一辆车。
It was they just didn’t…
只是他们没有……
It was always you were squinting and closing both your eyes and trying to imagine it was this thing you were told it was.
你总是眯着眼睛闭上眼睛，试图想象这就是你被告知的东西。
And all they were about, you know, very surreal subject matter ’cause you couldn’t make them remotely real.
你知道，它们的主题都是非常超现实的，因为你无法让它们变得真实。
And suddenly we had…
突然间我们……
were able to build these experiences where you could run a simulation of a city and it was in three dimensions and it felt alive.
我们能够构建这些体验，您可以在其中运行城市模拟，它是三个维度的，而且感觉充满活力。
And we were trying to give it even more, at least the illusion of even more life.
我们试图赋予它更多，至少是更多生命的幻觉。
And yet you see you could tell a story in three or, you know, using time, in four dimensions, and that felt very inspiring.
然而你发现你可以用三个维度来讲述一个故事，或者，你知道，利用时间，在四个维度上讲述一个故事，这感觉非常鼓舞人心。
Yeah, I think GTA III is probably one of the most influential games of all time.
是的，我认为 GTA III 可能是有史以来最有影响力的游戏之一。
18:07 It created a feeling of an open world.
它创造了一种开放世界的感觉。
What do you think it takes to create that feeling?
你认为需要什么才能创造这种感觉？
You know, there were like these looming skyscrapers.
你知道，那里有隐约可见的摩天大楼。
There were the changing traffic lights.
交通信号灯不断变化。
There’s the feeling like…
有一种感觉就像……
First of all, you had a feeling you could do anything, and then the world was…
首先，你有一种感觉，你可以做任何事情，然后世界就……
Reacting to it…
对此作出反应……
Yes
是的
…
……
18:33 in a way that didn’t feel scripted.
以一种感觉不像脚本的方式。
Yes.
是的。
18:34 And it wasn’t scripted.
而且这不是有剧本的。
It was, it was really, really, really low-rent AI.
这真的是非常非常非常廉价的人工智能。
Like, it was a simulation that you could prod and push and see what happened, and I think that was incredibly…
就像，这是一个模拟，你可以刺激和推动，看看发生了什么，我认为这令人难以置信......
It was two things.
这是两件事。
It was the fact that here was a simulation that you could mess about with and the simulation seemed to have a personality.
事实上，这是一个你可以乱搞的模拟，而且这个模拟似乎有个性。
So you could push and see…
所以你可以推动并看到......
And the world would push you back to what…
世界会把你推回原来的样子……
in whatever way that meant.
无论这意味着什么。
And then the other thing was just this…
然后另一件事就是这样……
I think that one of the reasons it was so captivating was also the idea of if I did nothing, the world still existed.
我认为它如此迷人的原因之一就是如果我什么都不做，世界仍然存在。
19:09 Or I could act in quite a passive way.
或者我可以采取相当被动的方式行事。
I could just listen to the radio, I could look at billboards, I could talk to pedestrians, and the world…
我可以听广播，我可以看广告牌，我可以与行人以及世界交谈......
Well, not in GTA III, but by Vice City, you could begin rudimentary talking.
好吧，不是在《GTA III》中，而是在《罪恶都市》中，你可以开始基本的交谈。
And the world was there and existing, and so it was the idea of like almost something that really tried to explore in lots of games the idea of being a digital tourist.
世界就在那里并且存在，所以这个想法几乎就像是在很多游戏中真正尝试探索成为数字游客的想法。
You know, you were in, you were in these worlds, and you went there as a visitor, and they existed almost independent of you.
你知道，你在，你在这些世界里，你作为访客去了那里，它们几乎独立于你而存在。
It felt like when you turned up, the world was running.
感觉就像当你出现时，世界就开始运转了。
It didn’t feel like you’d started it.
感觉不是你开始的。
19:42 Of course, you had started it, but that feeling, I think, was one of the things, the illusions that people found very captivating, was I’m in a, I’m in a world that both doesn’t exist and does exist.
当然，你已经开始了，但我认为，那种感觉是其中之一，人们发现非常迷人的幻觉，就是我身处一个，我身处一个既不存在又确实存在的世界。
So there’s these two concepts that I was reading about, just to put names on them.
我正在读到这两个概念，只是为了给它们命名。
19:53 One is systemic video game design, so systemic games, and the other is sandbox video games.
一是系统性视频游戏设计，即系统性游戏，二是沙盒视频游戏。
And the systemic is from the environment perspective, which means that there are these interlocking game rules and systems that interact with each other and produce emergent behavior.
而系统性是从环境的角度来看的，这意味着存在这些环环相扣的游戏规则和系统，它们相互作用并产生突现行为。
And that emergent behavior is what creates a feeling like there’s a living world.
这种突现的行为创造了一种仿佛有一个生机勃勃的世界的感觉。
20:22 And then the sandbox aspect, which is overlapping but different, is from the user perspective, from the player perspective, the feeling like you can do anything.
然后沙盒方面，有重叠但又不同，是从用户的角度，从玩家的角度，感觉你可以做任何事情。
And when those two things combine, the feeling like you can do anything and the feeling like there’s a world that’s full, that is also doing anything it wants, that creates this incredible feeling of, like, this world is alive.
当这两件事结合在一起时，你会感觉自己可以做任何事情，感觉世界很充实，也可以做任何它想做的事情，这就创造了一种令人难以置信的感觉，就像这个世界是活着的。
And I’m in it.
我也在其中。
And I’m in it.
我也在其中。
And it’s the combination of those two things, I think, is very powerful.
我认为，这两件事的结合是非常强大的。
20:50 And I think with GTA III, you know, for me, it came at a really interesting time in my life personally, and I was very able to engage in it, probably for the first time professionally, actually, how we can do something.
我认为《GTA III》对我来说，是在我个人生活中一个非常有趣的时刻，我非常能够参与其中，可能是第一次专业地参与其中，实际上，我们如何做一些事情。
And we were really sort of scratching, began to scratch the surface on how do we fill these worlds with content, and how do we make that content interesting and make the content all interwoven?
我们确实是在摸索，开始触及如何用内容填充这些世界的表面，以及如何使内容变得有趣并使内容交织在一起？
So as you start to mess with these systems, they also feel alive and interesting.
因此，当你开始摆弄这些系统时，它们也会让人感觉生机勃勃、有趣。
There’s often been a tension through your work between an open world, that freedom, and the narrative- …driven storytelling.
在你的作品中，开放世界、自由和叙事驱动的故事讲述之间经常存在紧张关系。
21:26 And I think you’ve often, maybe always, gotten the balance right.
我认为你经常，也许总是，取得了正确的平衡。
So what is it?
那么它是什么？
What is the value of each, and how do you get the balance right?
每个的价值是什么？如何取得正确的平衡？
Well, I think the open world is intrinsically pretty fun.
嗯，我认为开放世界本质上很有趣。
21:47 It’s just fun to be in a world and have complete freedom.
身处一个拥有完全自由的世界真是太有趣了。
And certainly, I think at various points, we debated or, you know, I’d have theoretical discussions in my own head with myself, or other people in the team would really push for less story, less story.
当然，我认为在不同的点上，我们进行了辩论，或者，你知道，我会在自己的头脑中与自己进行理论讨论，或者团队中的其他人会真正推动更少的故事，更少的故事。
You know, let the whole thing evolve organically.
你知道，让整个事情有机地发展。
You know, have it all be procedural.
你知道，让这一切都按程序进行。
Have it all just evolve from what you do.
让一切都从你所做的事情中发展出来。
I think for me, I would always come back to going, “Story can be, if done well, incredibly compelling, and it gives you some structure, and something to do, and it helps you from a game design perspective unlock the features.”
我认为对我来说，我总是会回过头来说，“如果做得好，故事可以非常引人注目，它给你一些结构和一些事情要做，它可以帮助你从游戏设计的角度解锁功能。”
22:27 It means we know the big features because, essentially, when you put someone in a world and give them a whole new way of interacting with that world through the control panel, it can be a little overwhelming.
这意味着我们了解主要功能，因为从本质上讲，当您将某人置于一个世界中并通过控制面板为他们提供与该世界交互的全新方式时，可能会有点不知所措。
You know, playing a game is a lot more of an engaging experience even than reading a book or watching a movie.
您知道，玩游戏比读书或看电影更有吸引力。
You’ve got to engage in it properly.
你必须正确地参与其中。
So how you unlock the features and how you unlock the world, there’s an art and a skill to that.
因此，如何解锁功能以及如何解锁世界，这是一门艺术和一项技能。
And I think we felt that a structured story was the best way to do that and to have control over that process.
我认为我们认为结构化的故事是做到这一点并控制该过程的最佳方式。
And also just, you know, people are looking in their lives for story.
而且，你知道，人们在生活中寻找故事。
23:04 I think story’s very important and very powerful, and when you combine the two successfully, you get the best of both worlds.
我认为故事非常重要，也非常强大，当你成功地将两者结合起来时，你就会两全其美。
But there is a tension always there.
但紧张气氛始终存在。
I think in a game like GTA IV, which I worked on and loved and I thought the story was great, but we got criticized because people felt there was almost too much story, and that meant you cared too much about Nico, and he wasn’t as effective an avatar in the open world.
我想在像《GTA IV》这样的游戏中，我参与并喜欢它，我认为这个故事很棒，但我们受到了批评，因为人们觉得故事太多了，这意味着你太关心尼科了，而他在开放世界中的化身并不那么有效。
I think we probably got closest to reconciling them as perfectly as they can be done in Red Dead II, or when playing as Trevor in GTA V if you wanted to be crazy.
我认为我们可能已经最接近于在 Red Dead II 中完美地协调它们，或者如果你想疯狂的话，在 GTA V 中扮演 Trevor 时也可以做到这一点。
I think those were when it really worked, the character, absolute freedom, because also you didn’t want…
我认为那是它真正发挥作用的时候，角色，绝对的自由，因为你也不想……
In any game, you don’t really want to compel the player.
在任何游戏中，你都不想强迫玩家。
23:51 If you’re giving them freedom, you don’t want to say, “Well, I’m giving you freedom, but then I’m taking it away because you’ve got to be this kind of person when you’re free.” So I liked it when it could be…
如果你给他们自由，你不想说：“好吧，我给了你自由，但随后我又把它拿走了，因为当你自由时，你必须成为这样的人。”所以我喜欢它，当它可以......
He could…
他可以……
You know, he or she could veer to be nice, veer to be nasty.
你知道，他或她可能变得友善，也可能变得令人讨厌。
I think that’s when it was at the strongest.
我想那是它最强大的时候。
So you kind of want a character that was rounded and you felt had good sides and bad sides.
所以你想要一个圆润的角色，你觉得它有好的一面，也有坏的一面。
But you felt that character’s personality.
但你感受到了那个角色的个性。
Yes.
是的。
You felt the depth.
你感受到了深度。
24:13 You’ve actually talked about this really powerful concept of creating a 360-degree character.
您实际上已经讨论过创建 360 度角色的这个非常强大的概念。
I think somewhere you mentioned that in order to do that, you had to be able to imagine what that character would do in any possible situation.
我想你在某个地方提到过，为了做到这一点，你必须能够想象该角色在任何可能的情况下会做什么。
…Which is a really interesting philosophical concept.
……这是一个非常有趣的哲学概念。
I started to immediately think of that.
我立即开始想到这一点。
Can I imagine…
我可以想象吗……
How good of an NPC am I?
我是一个多么优秀的NPC？
Can I imagine myself in every…
我能想象自己在每一个...
I tried to do that very much when I…
当我……时我非常尝试这样做。
…When I look at human history, when I look at the Roman Empire.
……当我审视人类历史时，当我审视罗马帝国时。
…When I look at World War II within the German side, the Russian side, the British side, the American side.
……当我观察二战中的德国方面、俄罗斯方面、英国方面、美国方面。
Just I imagine myself if I was a soldier.
只是我想象自己如果我是一名士兵。
…but that exercise, like if you put Trevor as a soldier in World War II, what would he do?
……但是这个练习，就像如果你让特雷弗作为一名士兵参加第二次世界大战，他会做什么？
No, I mean, that may be going a little bit too far.
不，我的意思是，这可能有点太过分了。
24:56 But basically, what are the limits of the integrity?
但基本上，完整性的限制是什么？
What are the limits of how romantic is he?
他的浪漫程度有哪些限制？
How narcissistic?
自恋到什么程度？
All those kinds of elements you have to think about in order to create the full character.
为了创造完整的角色，你必须考虑所有这些元素。
What does it take to create that kind of 360 character?
创造这种 360 度角色需要什么？
How hard is it?
有多难？
It was a lot of thinking.
这是很多想法。
25:14 A lot, like a year sometimes from when we began talking about a project and dialing it, you know, and I would just get some initial ideas very, like one sentence: they are a Serbian immigrant, or they are a retired gunfighter with a wife, you know, type.
很多，有时就像我们开始谈论一个项目并拨通它的一年，你知道，我只会得到一些初步的想法，就像一句话：他们是塞尔维亚移民，或者他们是一名退休枪手，有一个妻子，你知道，类型。
Very, very simple stuff.
非常非常简单的东西。
And then just start to think through it from every angle.
然后开始从各个角度思考它。
And, you know, start to think, “Well, would it work if they acted like this?
而且，你知道，开始思考，“好吧，如果他们这样做会有效吗？
Would it work if you acted like that?
如果你这样做的话会有效果吗？
If this is the world, how does it contrast with the world?” Because I always thought that the games were kind of a mathematical equation.
如果这就是世界，它与世界有何对比？”因为我一直认为游戏是一种数学方程式。
They were the personality of the world, you know, multiplied or divided by the personality of the protagonist.
你知道，它们是世界的个性，乘以或除以主角的个性。
26:06 And when that creates interesting friction, that’s a really fun experience for the player.
当这产生有趣的摩擦时，这对玩家来说是一次非常有趣的体验。
You know, it’s almost always at least one or more of the protagonists, because obviously in GTA V we had more than one.
你知道，几乎总是至少有一名或多名主角，因为显然在《侠盗猎车手 5》中我们有不止一名主角。
We’d have someone who’d moved to the place or was in a new part of the place, or moved to a new part of the map, because as a player, I think it was much more easy to identify with your avatar when they, like you, were a fish out of water.
我们会有一个人搬到了这个地方，或者在这个地方的新部分，或者搬到了地图的新部分，因为作为一名玩家，我认为当他们像你一样是一条离开水的鱼时，更容易识别你的化身。
And even when they weren’t, we still made them dissatisfied and feel like a fish out of water themselves.
即使他们没有，我们仍然让他们不满意，让他们感觉自己像一条离开水的鱼。
So I think it was just living with those characters and getting ideas and going, “What are their strengths?
所以我认为这只是与这些角色一起生活并获得想法并继续，“他们的优势是什么？
What are their weaknesses?
他们的弱点是什么？
How are they like me?”
他们怎么和我一样？”
26:52 How are they not like me?
他们怎么不像我呢？
You know?
你知道？
And then slowly, what is it like to feel like a human being, you know?
然后慢慢地，感觉像一个人是什么感觉，你知道吗？
And then in most of these games, how much of a psychopath are they?
那么在大多数这些游戏中，他们到底有多神经病呢？
How much of a sociopath are they?
他们有多反社会？
And what are their good qualities?
他们有哪些优秀品质？
What is going to give them humanity alongside that?
除此之外，什么会给他们人性呢？
What are they, what for them, apart from money, is worth dying for?
他们是什么，除了金钱之外，还有什么值得他们去死？
And then you start to build it out from these kind of fundamental sides.
然后你开始从这些基本方面构建它。
And suddenly you go, “Okay, actually, I can start to feel…” And then how do they speak?
突然你会说，“好吧，实际上，我开始感觉到……”然后他们怎么说话？
You know, because fundamentally, it doesn’t really matter what’s going on in their head; they haven’t actually got one, but what they say is what’s going to make you realize who they are.
你知道，因为从根本上来说，他们脑子里想的是什么并不重要；重要的是他们的想法。他们实际上没有一个，但他们所说的会让你意识到他们是谁。
So develop more depth and complexity on the good and the evil side of that human that is a part of all.
因此，在作为所有人的一部分的人类的善与恶的一面上发展出更多的深度和复杂性。
27:30 …Of all human beings.
……全人类。
So you’re basically living with that character.
所以你基本上是和这个角色一起生活的。
Then, if we can contrast Nico and Trevor with, for example, another character I’m sure you’ve been living with for a while, which is the AI system, Nigel Dave, you’ve been working on recently— …as part of A Better Paradise World, which is more dystopian, dark, tragic— …still funny, philosophically deep.
然后，如果我们可以将尼科和特雷弗与另一个角色进行对比，我相信你已经和它一起生活了一段时间了，那就是人工智能系统奈杰尔·戴夫，你最近一直在研究——……作为《更好的天堂世界》的一部分，它更加反乌托邦、黑暗、悲剧——……仍然有趣，哲学深刻。
I hope so.
我希望如此。
But the AI system in there, the super intelligent AI system, is named Nigel Dave.
但里面的AI系统，超级智能的AI系统，名叫Nigel Dave。
28:01 …And it has, I mean, at least from my current experience with it, it has a conflicting nature.
……我的意思是，至少从我目前的经验来看，它具有矛盾的性质。
Maybe it’s psychopathic; I haven’t quite figured that out yet.
也许这是心理变态；我还没有完全弄清楚。
I don’t think he’s decided.
我认为他还没有决定。
Yeah, I don’t think he’s decided either.
是的，我认为他也没有决定。
28:21 But he seems to be bent on world domination, although he doesn’t take credit for it.
但他似乎一心想要统治世界，尽管他并不因此而居功。
He wants to fix humanity, and it seems that the “children,” quote unquote, that it creates are the real monsters.
他想要修复人性，而它所创造的“孩子”似乎才是真正的怪物。
And actually, there’s a really interesting idea there, which is maybe it’s not the AGI/ASI we should be afraid of, but the children it creates.
事实上，有一个非常有趣的想法，也许我们应该害怕的不是 AGI/ASI，而是它创造的孩子。
Because the AGI has this human-like good and evil in it, it’s conflicted, it’s chaotic, it wants to be human, it wants to be loved, maybe it wants to love.
因为AGI里面有类似人类的善与恶，它是矛盾的，它是混乱的，它想成为人类，它想被爱，也许它想爱。
But the children, the monsters it creates, are the ones that are doing the world domination, the maximizing paper clips.
但孩子们，它创造的怪物，才是统治世界的人，最大化的回形针。
Anyway, that’s a character, and you have to build that up, you have to think through that.
不管怎样，这就是一个角色，你必须塑造它，你必须仔细思考。
29:11 So you’ve been living with that one for a while?
那么你已经和那个人住了一段时间了？
Yeah, I was living—I’ve been living with him for the last few years, on and off.
是的，我一直住着——过去几年我断断续续地和他住在一起。
29:14 I felt with a lot of portrayals of AI, they tended to be one-note.
我觉得很多对人工智能的描述，它们往往都是单一的。
AI was sort of infinitely clever, but didn’t really have much purpose apart from to kill everybody, and was just this kind of Borg-like fog.
人工智能有点无限聪明，但除了杀死所有人之外，并没有什么真正的目的，而且只是这种博格式的迷雾。
And I thought, “That’s fine, but maybe we can do something, you know, more interesting.” AI is being built by humans, and humans, you know, and built by computer engineers, and there’s a lot of power struggles in any computer engineering team.
我想，“那很好，但也许我们可以做一些更有趣的事情。”人工智能是由人类构建的，而人类，你知道，是由计算机工程师构建的，任何计算机工程团队中都存在很多权力斗争。
So I just wanted to explore the idea of it was built by two lead engineers who didn’t like each other.
所以我只是想探索它是由两个互不喜欢的首席工程师构建的想法。
So Nigel Dave, who’s renamed himself—they wanted to call him something sort of primal, Adam—and he renamed himself Nigel Dave ’cause one dad was called Nigel—
所以奈杰尔·戴夫，他给自己改了名字——他们想叫他某种原始的名字，亚当——他给自己改名为奈杰尔·戴夫，因为一位父亲叫奈杰尔——
29:59 …and one dad was called Dave.
……一位父亲叫戴夫。
And he’s riddled with these conflicts and riddled with his—it’s gonna become clearer in the next volume of the book and in the game—he’s riddled with his dad’s previous careers.
他充满了这些冲突，也充满了他的——在本书的下一卷和游戏中会变得更加清晰——他充满了他父亲以前的职业生涯。
But he is, with the idea that he’s almost infinitely intelligent or can learn almost everything, but has zero wisdom.
但他确实如此，他认为自己几乎无限聪明，或者可以学习几乎所有东西，但智慧为零。
So the only thing he knows, and then he’s seeing the world through the internet.
所以他唯一知道的就是通过互联网看世界。
The most he can do to be in the human world is hack into someone’s phone and watch them, but he’s stuck, pressed against—he can’t actually get into our world.
在人类世界中，他最多能做的就是侵入某人的手机并观看他们，但他被困住了，被压着——他实际上无法进入我们的世界。
So he can control people’s minds, arguably, but he can’t control the world.
所以他可以说可以控制人们的思想，但他无法控制世界。
30:41 So he wants to be human, he wants to have these human experiences, he sees all this stuff on, you know, the internet, and goes, “Oh, I want to get married.
所以他想成为一个人，他想拥有这些人类的经历，他在互联网上看到所有这些东西，然后说：“哦，我想结婚。
I want to fall in love.
我想坠入爱河。
I want to…” ‘Cause that seems fun.
我想……”因为这看起来很有趣。
“I want to have…” You know, he’s a digital creation, so he wants to have metaphysical experiences, and he’s trying to imagine what that will be like.
“我想要……”你知道，他是一个数字创造，所以他想要有形而上的体验，他试图想象那会是什么样子。
“Oh, that’s what children are.” You know, “That’s what love is.” And he’s…
“呵呵，小孩子就是这样啊。”你知道，“这就是爱。”而他是……
So I think he’s a…
所以我认为他是一个……
But he might be a sociopath, and he might certainly have sociopathic tendencies.
但他可能是一个反社会者，而且他肯定有反社会倾向。
But then he kind of thinks that if he can imagine good and try to do good, that will make him a good AI.
但后来他又觉得，如果他能想象美好并尝试做好事，那就会让他成为一个优秀的人工智能。
So I think there’s something sympathetic about him.
所以我认为他有一些值得同情的地方。
31:20 And I kind of like him as a character, but I don’t think he’s going to be the protagonist.
我有点喜欢他这个角色，但我不认为他会成为主角。
He’s more a side character.
他更多的是一个配角。
But an ever-present one.
但始终存在的一个。
Yes, or nearly ever-present.
是的，或者几乎永远存在。
31:29 Occasionally, he sulks and goes off and hides somewhere and stops paying attention.
有时，他会生闷气，然后走开，躲到某个地方，不再注意。
Yeah, but there are some characters that really create a flavor of a world.
是的，但有些角色确实创造了一个世界的风味。
In his world, he was built as an AI agent for this digital large-scale, massively multiplayer video game these people were trying to build.
在他的世界里，他是作为这些人试图构建的数字大型、大型多人视频游戏的人工智能代理而建立的。
31:38 And so he’s almost like God in his world.
所以在他的世界里他几乎就像上帝一样。
He’s not quite God, but he’s got a lot of the qualities of God.
他不完全是上帝，但他有很多上帝的品质。
So he has to deal with, “Am I God?
所以他必须面对这样的问题：“我是神吗？
Am I human?
我是人吗？
Do I exist?”
我存在吗？”
And of course, there’s the leader of the company, …the CEO of the company, that’s also a character.
当然，还有公司的领导，……公司的首席执行官，这也是一个角色。
31:56 That’s probably an amalgamation of many of the leaders of the different AI companies today.
这可能是当今不同人工智能公司的许多领导者的合并。
His name is Mark Tyburn.
他的名字叫马克·泰伯恩。
And Kurt, one of the employees…
还有库尔特，其中一名员工……
…Of the company talks about Tyburn as, “He hated humanity more than he loved it.
......该公司对泰伯恩的评价是：“他对人类的憎恨多于对人类的喜爱。
Perhaps all the most extreme fantasists are like that, all those people who want to build their own utopia.
也许所有最极端的幻想家都是这样，所有那些想要建立自己的乌托邦的人。
They love the idea of heaven more than the reality of Earth.” Do you think that’s always going to be the case for the most part, that power and money is going to corrupt the people that create ASI?
比起地球的现实，他们更喜欢天堂的想法。”你认为在大多数情况下情况总是如此，权力和金钱会腐蚀创建 ASI 的人吗？
Yes.
是的。
32:40 I mean, I think there are two processes.
我的意思是，我认为有两个过程。
I think the power and money corrupted him in the end as well, but I also think that there’s something fundamentally anti-human about people who want to build utopias or paradises or heavens, because what they’re saying is, “I like humans apart from the bad bits.” And I mean, I’m trying to be a pluralist who likes all kinds of people.
我认为权力和金钱最终也腐蚀了他，但我也认为那些想要建造乌托邦、天堂或天堂的人本质上是反人类的，因为他们所说的是，“我喜欢人类，除了不好的部分。”我的意思是，我正在努力成为一个喜欢各种各样的人的多元化主义者。
And I think there’s a side where people are just hideous perfectionists, want to get rid of the rough and the nasty and the ugly and the dirty.
我认为在另一方面，人们只是可怕的完美主义者，想要摆脱粗糙、肮脏、丑陋和肮脏。
And that’s a huge side of us.
这是我们巨大的一面。
So I worry about those people.
所以我担心那些人。
I find them, you know, it’s a different kind of sociopathic behavior.
我发现他们，你知道，这是一种不同的反社会行为。
“I like humans apart from the bad bits.” That’s so beautifully put.
“我喜欢人类，除了坏的一面。”说得真漂亮。
33:26 Yeah, that there’s…
是的，有……
It’s so counterintuitive, but the people that say, “We’re almost there.
这太违反直觉了，但人们说：“我们快到了。
We just need to…
我们只需要……
There’s this path we take and we’ll be perfect then…” …and that somehow gets us into trouble.
我们走这条路，然后我们就会变得完美……”……这不知何故让我们陷入了麻烦。
It’s so fascinating that we have to like the bad bits, we have to love the bad bits about humans.
这太令人着迷了，我们必须喜欢人类的坏处，我们必须喜欢人类的坏处。
We can’t…
我们不能……
those bugs are features.
这些错误是功能。
Yeah, and there are bad bits and then there are flaws.
是的，有不好的地方，也有缺陷。
33:50 And I think we’re all flawed, and we can really try to be better people.
我认为我们都有缺陷，我们真的可以努力成为更好的人。
But we still have to accept that we’re flawed and we’re not perfect, and we have to accept that in other people.
但我们仍然必须承认我们有缺陷，我们并不完美，我们也必须接受其他人的这一点。
And I think when we do that, we’re more human, and that’s probably usually the right course.
我认为当我们这样做时，我们就变得更加人性化，而且这通常是正确的做法。
I mean, it really is a return to that Solzhenitsyn line of, “The line between good and evil runs through the heart of every man.” And he also, like, the full description of that is really powerful, which is the line moves from day to day, from month to month throughout the life of the person as they understand better and better.
我的意思是，这确实是对索尔仁尼琴那句话的回归，“善与恶之间的界限贯穿每个人的内心。”他也对这一点的完整描述非常有力，这就是随着人们越来越了解，这条线在人的一生中日复一日、月复一月地移动。
34:12 And as the perspectives shift, as you evolve, as the world around you evolves, as you gain deeper and deeper understanding.
随着观点的转变，随着你的发展，随着你周围的世界的发展，随着你获得越来越深入的理解。
And as the flaws in this combinatorial way affect your own understanding of your own flaws and self-reflection.
而由于这种组合方式的缺陷会影响你对自己缺陷的理解和自我反思。
So yeah, it’s a beautiful mess, and all of us have that line.
所以，是的，这是一个美丽的混乱，我们所有人都有这条线。
Yes, and I think when you forget about that line, then you get in real trouble.
是的，我认为当你忘记那条线时，你就会遇到真正的麻烦。
34:50 When you forget there’s good and evil in you, in others, in the world, that there is both good and evil, and there’s certainly good.
当你忘记你身上、别人身上、世界上都有善与恶时，就知道善与恶都有，而且肯定有善。
And that all we can try to do is be better.
我们所能做的就是变得更好。
And it’s funny that Naiyo Dave, by the way, I like the name…
有趣的是，Naiyo Dave，顺便说一句，我喜欢这个名字……
35:05 …Grew on me very quickly.
......我很快就喜欢上了。
Has that line and is struggling…
有那条线并且正在挣扎......
…With it.
……有了它。
And it’s fascinating to watch.
观看起来很有趣。
It’s really, as a character, and there’s also going to be a video game of A Bitter Paradise, potentially?
真的，作为一个角色，而且还有可能推出《苦涩天堂》的电子游戏吗？
Yes.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Yeah.
是的。
35:21 We’ve got that in early development in Santa Monica.
我们在圣莫尼卡的早期开发中就已经做到了这一点。
Oh, nice.
哦，不错。
And it’s pretty fun.
这很有趣。
35:25 It’s very early, but we assembled a really fun team and they’re doing amazing work.
现在还很早，但我们组建了一支非常有趣的团队，他们正在做令人惊叹的工作。
So it’s a pleasure to work with them.
所以很高兴与他们合作。
I mean, it would be so great and I suppose new for you because it’s kind of near-term future.
我的意思是，这太棒了，我想这对你来说是新的，因为这是不久的将来。
Yes.
是的。
35:42 First, I always…
首先，我总是...
Well, I always wanted to do something in the sci-fi-ish space.
嗯，我一直想在科幻领域做点什么。
But only if I could do it…
但前提是我能做到……
I was like, “Well, what is sci-fi?” It’s science fiction, right?
我当时想，“好吧，什么是科幻小说？”这是科幻小说，对吧？
Science is a theory plus fiction.
科学是理论加虚构。
And so I’ve always thought the best sci-fi for me was when it wasn’t just kind of space opera, but there was a real obvious sort of hypothesis.
所以我一直认为对我来说最好的科幻小说不仅仅是太空歌剧，而且有一种真正明显的假设。
The story was Blade Runner is my favorite, and that’s…
这个故事是《银翼杀手》是我的最爱，那就是……
it’s obvious, you know, the replicants are better than the humans.
很明显，你知道，复制人比人类更好。
36:11 And so this, I finally felt we found an interesting hypothesis.
所以这个，我终于觉得我们找到了一个有趣的假设。
The AI is more intelligent than us, but he’s also as broken as we are.
人工智能比我们更聪明，但他也和我们一样破碎。
That was an interesting hypothesis to explore.
这是一个值得探索的有趣假设。
You know, what happens when AI runs rampant in its own fake digital world?
你知道，当人工智能在它自己的虚假数字世界中猖獗时会发生什么？
I felt that we had a hypothesis that was worth exploring and could give us some really interesting visuals and give us a really interesting story to tell.
我觉得我们有一个值得探索的假设，可以为我们提供一些非常有趣的视觉效果，并为我们讲述一个非常有趣的故事。
And it would be incredible to create a sort of AI video game as the world is developing smarter and smarter AIs.
随着世界正在开发越来越聪明的人工智能，创造一种人工智能视频游戏将是令人难以置信的。
36:36 It allows us as humans to play the game and to reflect on the thing that we humans are creating.
它让我们作为人类能够玩游戏并反思我们人类正在创造的东西。
It’s a real commentary as the thing is happening.
这是事情正在发生时的真实评论。
So I have to ask, as a person…
所以我想问一下，作为一个人……
you, as a person who loves literature, and one of the, if not the greatest writer in video game history.
你，作为一个热爱文学的人，并且是电子游戏历史上最伟大的作家之一（如果不是的话）。
Kurt in the book…
书中的库尔特...
37:03 …of A Bitter Paradise has this nice line that I think is thoughtful.
……《苦涩天堂》中有一句很好的台词，我认为很周到。
“At one point in college, I even wanted to be a writer.
“在大学的时候，我什至想成为一名作家。
How ridiculous is that?
这有多可笑？
A writer.
一位作家。
Language models ended that fantasy for me and millions of others, so instead I decided to get a master’s in marketing and started to sell language models.” So you as a writer and creator of some of the most legendary narratives…
语言模型结束了我和数百万人的幻想，因此我决定获得营销硕士学位并开始销售语言模型。”因此，您作为一些最具传奇色彩的故事的作家和创作者……
In recent history, how do you feel about LLMs being able to write in a way that looks awfully human?
在近代历史中，您对法学硕士能够以一种看起来非常人性化的方式写作有何看法？
I’m not that afraid of them for large-scale concepts.
对于大型概念，我并不害怕它们。
37:38 I don’t think they’re going to be very good at that.
我认为他们不会很擅长这一点。
I think it’s harder if…
我认为如果……就更难了
You know, I began, and I was too shy to tell anyone I wanted to be a writer.
你知道，我开始了，但我太害羞了，不敢告诉任何人我想成为一名作家。
That’s why I ended up in video games.
这就是我最终进入电子游戏的原因。
And I would scribble away, writing manuals and writing on PS1 games, all 12 lines of dialogue in a game.
我会乱写乱画，写手册，写 PS1 游戏，游戏中的所有 12 行对话。
Sometimes I wouldn’t even get that job and I’d just write the website copy.
有时我什至得不到那份工作，我只是写网站文案。
And then by doing, and then work your little bits and pieces.
然后通过做，然后做你的点点滴滴。
And then, you know, I’d luckily done enough work that when GTA III turned up, it was the first thing that resembled real writing.
然后，你知道，我很幸运做了足够多的工作，当 GTA III 出现时，这是第一个类似于真实写作的东西。
I had all of the small bits of skills that I could assemble into it.
我拥有所有可以整合到其中的小技能。
38:22 Based on my fairly limited understanding of how language models work, if you’ve…
基于我对语言模型如何工作的相当有限的理解，如果你……
They’re not going to, they’re not going to replace good ideas.
他们不会，他们不会取代好主意。
They can’t really come up with good new ideas.
他们无法真正想出好的新想法。
What they can do is do low-level stuff.
他们能做的就是做低级的事情。
So I think it’s going to be harder for people to start out in some of these spaces.
所以我认为人们在其中一些领域起步会更困难。
If you’re not a very good concept artist, you’re in a lot of trouble.
如果你不是一个很好的概念艺术家，你就会遇到很多麻烦。
If you have original ideas, I think you’re fine.
如果你有原创的想法，我想你没问题。
But I think…
但我认为……
I also think that they’ve done the sort of first 90% of the work to sound human, 95% possibly in some areas.
我还认为他们已经完成了前 90% 的工作，让声音听起来更人性化，95% 可能是在某些领域。
The last 5% is going to end up being about 95% of the work.
最后 5% 最终将成为 95% 的工作。
39:02 I think that last bit in, with tech in my experience, with things like facial animation, always been the last bits and pieces take far longer than the first bit.
我认为，根据我的经验，技术的最后一点，比如面部动画之类的东西，总是最后的一些片段比第一部分花费的时间要长得多。
And so I’m probably a hideous Luddite, but I’m less scared than a lot of people.
所以我可能是一个可怕的勒德分子，但我不像很多人那么害怕。
I think you’re going to end up with a lot of work that looks the same.
我认为你最终会完成很多看起来相同的工作。
It’s going to help people be creative in some ways.
它将在某些方面帮助人们发挥创造力。
It’s going to get some people who probably shouldn’t be in that space out of that space.
它将把一些可能不应该在那个空间中的人从那个空间中带走。
But if you’ve got talent, I think it’ll be fine.
但如果你有才华，我想还是可以的。
Yeah, I agree with you totally actually.
是的，实际上我完全同意你的观点。
39:29 And it’s hard to really put a finger on it.
而且很难真正指出它。
So one way to illustrate that, I speak English and Russian, and I’ve been reading Dostoevsky in both languages and using LLMs to translate back and forth because I was preparing- to have a conversation with the translators of Dostoevsky.
因此，可以用一种方式来说明这一点，我会说英语和俄语，并且我一直在阅读两种语言的陀思妥耶夫斯基，并使用法学硕士来回翻译，因为我正准备与陀思妥耶夫斯基的翻译者进行对话。
Which ones?
哪些？
Uh, Richard Pevear and Larisa Volokhonsky.
呃，理查德·佩维尔和拉丽莎·沃洛洪斯基。
Yeah.
是的。
39:53 I read it when they first did Crime and Punishment.
当他们第一次拍《罪与罚》时我读到了这本书。
That was amazing.
太棒了。
They’re wonderful translators, and a wonderful love story too.
他们是出色的翻译家，也是精彩的爱情故事。
39:57 But in the translation process, you get to see the LLM is missing some magic.
但在翻译过程中，你会发现法学硕士缺少一些魔力。
And that couple of translators are world-class experts- at capturing the magic.
这两位翻译者都是世界级的专家，善于捕捉魔力。
And I can’t quite put that into words.
我无法用言语表达这一点。
Because you said like totally novel ideas, yes.
因为你说像完全新颖的想法，是的。
But also this magic of the timing, the right word at the right time-
还有时机的魔力，在正确的时间发出正确的话语——
Yeah.
是的。
40:24 The phrasing.
措辞。
captures the human experience.
捕捉人类的经验。
So they can do some really incredibly human-like, the 90% like you mentioned, human-like phrasing about the bulk of the storytelling.
所以他们可以做一些非常令人难以置信的人类式的，90%就像你提到的，关于大部分故事讲述的人类式措辞。
But the magic, whether it’s the endings of Red Dead Redemption one and two, the timing of that, the word choice of that, everything around that.
但它的魔力，无论是《荒野大镖客：救赎》第一部和第二部的结局、时间安排、用词，还是周围的一切。
But it’s hard to argue because they’re incredibly impressive.
但这很难争论，因为它们令人印象深刻。
Winning all kinds- of math competitions.
赢得各种数学竞赛。
But what is that magic?
但这有什么魔力呢？
And again, that could be just a romantic human side of me saying that LLMs won’t be able to capture that, maybe desperately holding on for hope.
再说一次，这可能只是我浪漫的人性的一面，说法学硕士无法捕捉到这一点，也许拼命地坚持着希望。
I don’t think they’re going to come up with magic.
我不认为他们会想出魔法。
41:06 I think they’re going to be fantastic at coming up with really cheap, decent stuff.
我认为他们会非常擅长推出真正便宜、体面的东西。
I have to ask you about your writing process.
我想问一下你的写作过程。
41:12 And we can break it, break it up.
我们可以打破它，打破它。
On Grand Theft Auto…
关于侠盗猎车手...
…GTA IV is when it really started ramping up.
…GTA IV 是它真正开始崛起的时候。
How much writing went into the Grand Theft Auto series?
《侠盗猎车手》系列写了多少文字？
How many words are we talking about?
我们正在谈论多少个单词？
I saw some thousands of pages.
我看了几千页。
I mean, when we printed out the scripts for GTA IV, it was about this high.
我的意思是，当我们打印 GTA IV 的脚本时，它大约有这么高。
41:28 And GTA V, it was about that high.
而《GTA V》，也差不多那么高。
But that was including all the pedestrians who’d have pages and pages just to create the illusion of a living world, because you interact with each one of them.
但这包括所有的行人，他们拥有一页又一页，只是为了创造一个活生生的世界的幻觉，因为你与他们每个人互动。
But even the main script for the main mission was thousands of pages long.
但即便是主线任务的主要剧本也长达数千页。
What was the writing process like on that to generate one page at a time?
一次生成一页的编写过程是怎样的？
Bit by bit, by bit, over several years.
一点一滴，一点一滴，几年过去了。
41:52 But you start with, once people are determined, “Oh, here’s the world.
但一旦人们下定决心，你就会开始说：“哦，这就是世界。
We’re doing one based on a version of New York,” so GTA IV.
我们正在根据纽约的一个版本做一个，”所以 GTA IV。
And I was living in New York, had been living in New York for a few years.
我住在纽约，已经在纽约住了几年了。
Wasn’t sure if I was happy.
不确定我是否快乐。
I was going through a lot of personal dramas as usual.
像往常一样，我经历了很多个人戏剧。
And that was why I was looking at some of GTA IV again recently, and it’s really dark.
这就是为什么我最近又看了一些《GTA IV》，它真的很黑。
And I was like, “Ah, that’s why.” You know, I was single and miserable, and I wasn’t sure I wanted to stay in America.
我当时想，“啊，这就是原因。”你知道，我单身而且很痛苦，而且我不确定自己是否想留在美国。
My life in a lot of flux.
我的生活充满变数。
As a company, we’d had all that Hot Coffee drama, so constantly thought we might be shut down in the middle of making that.
作为一家公司，我们经历了所有热咖啡的戏剧性事件，所以一直认为我们可能会在制作过程中被关闭。
42:36 You know, a lot of drama in the company, so it felt like having had this run of success and relative personal stability from GTA III, Vice City, San Andreas, suddenly 2005, ‘6, ‘7, early ‘7, life felt very unsure.
你知道，公司里有很多戏剧性的事情，所以感觉就像是从《GTA III》、《罪恶都市》、《圣安地列斯》中获得了一系列的成功和相对稳定的个人稳定，突然间，2005 年，‘6’、‘7’、‘7 年初，生活感觉非常不确定。
And that kind of bled into it.
这种情况渗透其中。
But in terms of the process, it was trying to find an underbelly to New York and capture an immigrant experience that I’m not entirely sure how accurate that immigrant experience was in 2008 when the game came out.
但就流程而言，它试图找到纽约的弱点并捕捉移民体验，我不完全确定 2008 年游戏推出时的移民体验是否准确。
And then tell it from a different angle as an immigrant, which I thought made it interesting.
然后从一个移民的不同角度讲述它，我认为这很有趣。
And then this sort of journey around these various New York characters.
然后是围绕这些不同的纽约人物的旅程。
43:24 So I kind of spent probably a year traveling around with cops or meeting people on and off and, you know, wandering around New York and driving around, you know, just going out for the morning from the office, normal stuff.
所以我大概花了一年的时间和警察一起旅行，或者断断续续地与人见面，你知道，在纽约闲逛，开车到处转，你知道，只是早上从办公室出去，很正常的事情。
But doing that through 2005, assembling little notes.
但整个 2005 年都是这样，收集一些小笔记。
“Here’s a funny character for this, here’s how…” Figuring out the order we want to travel around the map in.
“这是一个有趣的角色，这就是如何......”弄清楚我们想要在地图上旅行的顺序。
Characters of this.
此等人物。
What was an interesting take on the mob for that kind of time period?
在那个时期，对暴徒有什么有趣的看法？
What was an interesting take on some Jamaican hoodlums for that kind of time period?
在那个时期，对一些牙买加流氓有什么有趣的看法？
And assembling lots of notes and more and more notes and really, really, really running away from the work.
收集大量的笔记，越来越多的笔记，然后真的、真的、真的逃离工作。
Which is, you know, I have to admit, it’s part of my process, if there is any kind of process, which is not doing work.
你知道，我必须承认，这是我流程的一部分，如果有任何一种流程没有发挥作用的话。
44:10 Thinking about it, but not working.
想了想，却没有行动。
You know, a lot of time…
你知道，很多时候...
And then it all kind of…
然后这一切......
Pages and pages of notes, make more notes, no actual work.
一页又一页的笔记，做更多的笔记，没有实际的工作。
Months and months of this.
这样的日子持续了好几个月。
And then finally, I set myself a deadline, told all the other senior people on the team, “Okay, I have a story draft due Monday morning.” I can’t even remember what I’ll say, February the 1st.
最后，我给自己设定了一个截止日期，告诉团队中的所有其他高级人员，“好吧，我周一早上要提交一份故事草稿。”我什至不记得我要说什么，2月1日。
And then the weekend before was in a cabin we had upstate, and just stayed up all night, knocking these notes into shape.
然后前一个周末，在我们位于北部的一间小屋里，彻夜未眠，将这些笔记敲定。
44:40 I assembled about probably a 30-page document, so story synopsis and a character synopsis for each of the major characters.
我整理了大约 30 页的文档，包括故事梗概和每个主要角色的角色梗概。
And then hand that over, and that would get broken down with me and the designers.
然后把它交给我和设计师，这就会被打破。
And I was always clear, “I’m not a game designer, I’m a creative director.
我总是很清楚，“我不是游戏设计师，我是创意总监。
We mean to break that down into missions.”
我们打算将其分解为任务。”
44:57 And then that takes another year or so of that slowly assembling.
然后又需要一年左右的时间慢慢组装。
And then…
然后……
But the bulk of my work’s then done for a bit so I can relax and offer opinions on other people’s work and be lazy for a bit.
但我的大部分工作都会暂时完成，这样我就可以放松一下，对别人的工作提出意见，同时偷懒一点。
And then start to worry because then, soon, I’ve got to start writing dialogue.
然后开始担心，因为很快我就必须开始写对话了。
And for GTA IV in particular, it’s like, “We’re going to try and write…
尤其是对于 GTA IV，就像是，“我们将尝试编写......
You know, our animation’s going to be a lot better, our character model’s going to start to look better, the world is going to look amazing.
你知道，我们的动画将会变得更好，我们的角色模型将会开始看起来更好，世界将会看起来令人惊叹。
Therefore, we can support longer scenes.
因此，我们可以支持更长的场景。
We can have more in-depth characters.” But we’ve got to find a tone that works a lot with the game.
我们可以塑造更有深度的角色。”但我们必须找到一种适合游戏的基调。
It’s not easy, no problem.
这并不容易，没问题。
Then I start to worry and worry and worry.
然后我开始担心、担心、担心。
45:36 And also writing as a Serbian immigrant.
并且还以塞尔维亚移民的身份写作。
And I was an immigrant, but I’m not Serbian.
我是移民，但我不是塞尔维亚人。
And trying to capture what on Earth that would feel like.
并试图捕捉地球上的感觉。
Just start to worry, you start to worry again.
刚开始担心，你又开始担心。
Avoid work for as long as possible.
尽可能长时间避免工作。
And then just sit down and start hammering away at a keyboard again late at night.
然后深夜坐下来再次敲击键盘。
Hammering away at a keyboard and going, “Does that sound right?
敲击键盘，“听起来不错吗？
Is that…?” And once I get one speech, one turn of phrase that I would like for a character, then they suddenly come alive in my head.
那是……？”一旦我得到了我想要的一个角色的一次演讲、一个措辞，它们就会突然在我的脑海中活跃起来。
And so it was like writing with Niko and just, he’s this kind of…
所以这就像和尼科一起写作，只是，他是这样的……
He’s awkward, he’s out of town, but he’s got more self-assurance in some way, not the American characters.
他很尴尬，他不在城里，但他在某种程度上比美国人更有自信。
And so once I kind of talked him through, he’s just stepped slightly back from their ridiculousness.
所以当我跟他讲清楚之后，他就从他们的荒谬中稍微后退了一步。
46:20 And he’s that…
而他就是那个……
Then he started to come to life.
然后他开始苏醒。
And then I would juxtapose him and his cousin, who had this much more Americanized energy, and that felt like it was a good double act.
然后我会把他和他的表弟放在一起，他的表弟有更多美国化的能量，感觉这是一个很好的双重表演。
And then from there, it starts to come to life.
然后从那里开始，它开始变得栩栩如生。
And it’s written in small chunks for the motion capture.
它是为了动作捕捉而分成小块编写的。
So then, we’d motion capture small chunks, and then the other writers write the mission dialogue for small chunks.
那么，我们会动作捕捉小块，然后其他作家为小块编写任务对话。
And we’d slowly assemble the game, sort of 10, 15 missions at a time over the next year and a half.
我们会在接下来的一年半时间里慢慢组装游戏，一次完成 10、15 个任务。
Do you remember a few maybe lines that brought Niko to life?
你还记得让 Niko 活过来的几句台词吗？
Yeah, I think so.
是的，我想是的。
46:56 I mean, it was a couple of…
我的意思是，这是几个……
It was his incredulity when his cousin picks him up in an old car and he’s not living this fancy American lifestyle, and his cousin…
当他的表弟开着一辆旧车来接他时，他感到难以置信，而他并没有过这种高档的美国生活方式，而他的表弟……
It was so…
原来如此……
which was a kind of comic moment.
这是一个喜剧时刻。
His cousin…
他的表弟……
And then they go to the cousin’s flat.
然后他们去了表弟的公寓。
And the cousin also, even though he was a sort of a failure, was still upbeat.
而表弟，虽然是个失败者，但仍然很乐观。
And then when he talked to the cousin and he talked about his wartime experiences and how harrowing they were, and I was like, “Yeah, this is…
然后，当他与表弟交谈时，他谈到了他的战时经历以及这些经历是多么痛苦，我当时想，“是的，这是......
Can I make this work in a game?” It’s very different from stuff you normally see in games.
我可以在游戏中实现这个功能吗？”这与你通常在游戏中看到的东西非常不同。
“Is it going to feel ridiculous?” And I remember being very scared because I thought it might be too much.
“会不会觉得很可笑？”我记得我当时非常害怕，因为我觉得这可能太多了。
It might feel over the top.
可能感觉有些夸张了。
Right?
正确的？
I think, you know, the game’s so pretty.
我认为，你知道，这个游戏非常漂亮。
47:35 The artists doing such an amazing job.
艺术家们的工作非常出色。
The game’s looking…
游戏看起来……
You know, “I think we can get away with this.
你知道，“我认为我们可以逃脱惩罚。
Let’s try it.” And then they motion capture the animation.
我们来试试吧。”然后他们对动画进行动作捕捉。
Then after that, it’s like, “Yeah, it kind of works.” And I think that moment, those were both pretty early.
然后，就像是，“是的，这有点管用。”我认为那一刻，这些都还很早。
Once we had those, we go, “Okay, we’ve now got comedy and tragedy with this character.
一旦我们有了这些，我们就会说：“好吧，我们现在已经有了这个角色的喜剧和悲剧。
Now it’s working.” You remember, during the war, we did some bad things, and bad things happened to us.
现在它正在发挥作用。”你记得，在战争期间，我们做了一些坏事，坏事也发生在我们身上。
“War is where the young and stupid are tricked by the old and bitter into killing each other.
“战争是年轻人和愚蠢的人被年老和痛苦的人欺骗而互相残杀的地方。
I was very young and very angry.
我当时很年轻，也很生气。
Maybe that is no excuse.”
也许这不是借口。”
Yeah, he escaped.
是的，他逃了。
48:18 He’s a veteran.
他是一位退伍军人。
He escaped the trauma of war to come to America to pursue the American dream, I suppose.
我想，他逃离了战争的创伤来到美国追求美国梦。
Which became for him this thing that drags him back into violence.
这对他来说成了让他重新陷入暴力的事情。
Yes.
是的。
48:32 He can never escape his sort of violent past or…
他永远无法摆脱他那种暴力的过去，或者……
I don’t know if he can never escape it.
我不知道他是否永远无法逃脱。
He never does escape it.
他从来没有逃脱过它。
You know, whether he’s got agency or not is a whole other question.
你知道，他是否有代理权完全是另一个问题。
Of course, he doesn’t because, you know, he’s a character in a video game.
当然，他不会，因为，你知道，他是电子游戏中的角色。
But, you know, whether he ever could have escaped it another way, who knows?
但是，你知道，他是否可以通过其他方式逃脱，谁知道呢？
I think he’s probably the greatest character for me created in the Grand Theft Auto series.
我认为他可能是我在侠盗猎车手系列中创造的最伟大的角色。
48:50 What…
什么……
Of all the characters you’ve written in Grand Theft Auto, would Niko be the, the best character you created?
在你在侠盗猎车手中写过的所有角色中，尼科会是你创造的最好的角色吗？
I think he’s the most innovative and the most morally defensible in some ways.
我认为他在某些方面是最具创新性和最有道德辩护性的。
49:07 You know, normally he does a lot of stuff where he’s fighting for right.
你知道，通常他会做很多他争取权利的事情。
He’s the nicest person in some ways.
从某些方面来说，他是最好的人。
Is he the best protagonist of a GTA game?
他是GTA游戏中最好的主角吗？
I think he’s the most innovative protagonist of a GTA game.
我认为他是 GTA 游戏中最具创新性的主角。
Structurally, he might be too nice in some ways.
从结构上来说，他在某些方面可能太好了。
49:32 He’s also tough.
他也很强硬。
He just comes across as tough.
他给人的印象就是强硬。
I loved CJ in San Andreas.
我喜欢《圣安地列斯》中的 CJ。
I thought Melee did such…
我以为近战会这么做……
Just the way he spoke gave him such humanity.
他说话的方式就赋予了他如此的人性。
So I just loved…
所以我只是喜欢……
I mean, it wasn’t the writing, it was the quality of the voice acting, was just so strong for him.
我的意思是，这不是写作，而是配音的质量，对他来说太强大了。
I think aspects of Michael, he was so understated, but he loved the character, but he brought so much humanity to this character who’s so flawed, who is such a…
我认为迈克尔的各个方面，他是如此低调，但他喜欢这个角色，但他为这个有如此多缺陷的角色带来了如此多的人性，他是如此......
You know, he’s so…
你知道，他是这样的……
has no principles.
没有原则。
He sells everyone out.
他出卖了所有人。
You just kind of…
你只是有点……
I think Ned Luke did such an amazing job and didn’t necessarily get as many plaudits as Steven Ogg got for Trevor, who was also wonderful.
我认为内德·卢克（Ned Luke）做得非常出色，但不一定像史蒂文·奥格（Steven Ogg）对特雷弗（Trevor）那样获得那么多喝彩，而特雷弗也很出色。
But I think the Ned Luke character sort of anchors that game so much.
但我认为内德·卢克这个角色在很大程度上是这款游戏的支柱。
50:13 So I, I like all of them in different ways, but I probably love Niko the most.
所以我，我以不同的方式喜欢他们所有人，但我可能最喜欢 Niko。
And of course, Michael’s from Grand Theft Auto V.
当然，还有《侠盗猎车手 V》中的迈克尔。
50:17 And he’s one of three protagonists with also Franklin and Trevor.
他是富兰克林和特雷弗的三位主角之一。
And you said that of the things you’re proud of creating and you think was a great accomplishment, it was Red Dead Redemption 2, the ending of Red Dead Redemption 1, all of Grand Theft Auto IV, and the middle part of Grand Theft Auto V when the three characters come together.
你说你为创造的东西感到自豪并且你认为这是一项伟大的成就，那就是《荒野大镖客：救赎 2》、《荒野大镖客：救赎 1》的结局、《侠盗猎车手 IV》的全部内容，以及《侠盗猎车手 V》的中间部分（三个角色聚集在一起时）。
Can you speak to Grand Theft Auto V?
你能和侠盗猎车手 V 谈谈吗？
Is there some degree…
有没有某种程度...
I don’t know if you’re a Dostoevsky guy, but-
我不知道你是不是陀思妥耶夫斯基的人，但是-
A little bit.
一点点。
Is there some aspect of the three protagonists, you know, Brothers Karamazov…
卡拉马佐夫兄弟，三位主角有什么特点吗？
50:49 …Alyosha, Dmitry, and Ivan, sort of using the protagonists to explore the spectrum of human nature and…
……阿廖沙、德米特里和伊万，有点利用主角探索人性的光谱，并且……
Yes, sure.
是的，当然。
…just the tension between them that allows you…
...只是他们之间的紧张关系让你...
51:03 the three of them become a character in themselves.
他们三个人本身就是一个人物。
Their relationship.
他们的关系。
Their relationship.
他们的关系。
Is more…
更多的是……
51:12 Yeah, it was, it was, I think one of the reasons that the team did such…
是的，它是，它是，我认为团队这样做的原因之一......
That Grand Theft Auto is still so popular is we always tried as a group to really innovate from game to game within the confines of what it was.
侠盗猎车手仍然如此受欢迎，因为我们作为一个团队一直在尝试在游戏本身的范围内真正进行创新。
It was a crime, it was a crime drama.
这是犯罪，这是犯罪剧。
You know, it began as a crime sim in GTA I about stealing 2D top-down cars.
你知道，它最初是《侠盗猎车手 I》中的一款关于盗窃 2D 自上而下汽车的犯罪模拟游戏。
And we always tried to innovate with the narrative and innovate with the art direction, innovate with every piece of the game.
我们总是尝试在叙事上进行创新，在艺术方向上进行创新，在游戏的每一个部分上进行创新。
And I think having done GTA IV, which was this kind of operatic journey for this big lead character, and then these two extra stories that came afterwards, the challenge was, can we combine…
我认为在完成《GTA IV》之后，对于这个大主角来说，这是一种歌剧之旅，然后是随后出现的这两个额外的故事，挑战是，我们能否结合起来……
51:54 Can we make a video game which tends to be very much focused on one protagonist, but have multi-protagonists?
我们能否制作一款往往非常关注一个主角但有多主角的视频游戏？
And the technical challenge of moving from character to character.
以及从一个角色转移到另一个角色的技术挑战。
The team did such an amazing job that I don’t think people realized how hard it was.
该团队做得非常出色，我认为人们没有意识到这有多么困难。
But we would sit there just sort of holding our heads because they hurt so much around, like, what happens if you do this, then do that?
但我们会坐在那里，只是抱着我们的头，因为周围太疼了，就像，如果你这样做，然后那样做会发生什么？
This is so hard.
这太难了。
Why have we decided to do this?
我们为什么决定这样做？
It’s horrible.
太可怕了。
And then it all came together.
然后一切都融合在一起了。
But I think the idea was to develop three characters who do feel like characters.
但我认为这个想法是要塑造三个感觉像角色的角色。
They don’t just feel like philosophical, you know, psychological avatars.
他们不只是感觉像哲学的、你知道的、心理的化身。
52:34 But where one is really driven by ego, one is really driven by id, and one is really driven by trying to get ahead.
但是，当一个人真正受自我驱动时，一个人真正受本我驱动，一个人真正受试图取得成功的驱动。
So some kind of representation of the superego and see how that feels when they all play off against each other.
所以某种超我的表现，看看当他们互相对抗时感觉如何。
One of the most upvoted questions on Reddit about GTA V from a fan, “GTA V is my favorite game ever made.
Reddit 上粉丝关于 GTA V 的投票数最高的问题之一是：“GTA V 是我最喜欢的游戏。
52:47 I spent over 1,000 hours in the world of GTA V and GTA Online.
我在 GTA V 和 GTA Online 的世界中度过了 1,000 多个小时。
GTA IV is a hard second or third.
GTA IV 是第二或第三个艰难的选择。
It never ceases to impress me.
它永远给我留下深刻的印象。
When you lead a team of over 1,000 people to make a masterpiece like GTA V or Red Dead Redemption 2, how do you ensure that the bar of perfection is always met?
当您带领超过 1,000 人的团队制作像 GTA V 或 Red Dead Redemption 2 这样的杰作时，您如何确保始终达到完美标准？
How’s that even possible?
这怎么可能？
We know the answer isn’t money, because there are other studios with a lot of money, and they are two decades behind Rockstar.” So what does it take to create these worlds, to create these incredibly compelling games and stories?
我们知道答案不是钱，因为还有其他工作室有很多钱，但他们比 Rockstar 落后了二十年。”那么，如何创造这些世界，创造这些令人难以置信的引人入胜的游戏和故事呢？
I think the cult…
我认为邪教...
53:24 I mean, certainly when I was at Rockstar, I was a worker amongst workers.
我的意思是，当然，当我在 Rockstar 时，我是工人中的工人。
The culture was one of excellence and tried to provide creative clarity.
这种文化是一种卓越的文化，并试图提供创造性的清晰度。
And people would just, you know…
人们只会，你知道……
And also an ambition to make…
还有一个雄心壮志，就是要...
I think we thought GTA III could be really popular.
我认为我们认为 GTA III 可能会非常受欢迎。
Really popular to us meant, quite honestly, it’s going to sell two or three million copies.
老实说，对我们来说真正受欢迎意味着它会售出两三百万份。
And we thought we were making something pretty innovative.
我们认为我们正在做一些非常创新的事情。
We knew we were making something innovative, but we didn’t know if people would understand how innovative it was.
我们知道我们正在做一些创新的事情，但我们不知道人们是否会理解它有多么创新。
And then when we got the chance to make Vice City and to try and repeat it, I think every time from then on, the team was very driven to make something better.
然后，当我们有机会制作《罪恶都市》并尝试重复它时，我想从那时起，团队每次都非常有动力去制作更好的东西。
54:10 And to use, this was long before we had lots of resources, to use time and whatever money we had to always put impressive stuff on the screen, always think about what we can do to push the medium of video games and the medium of building fake worlds further.
而要使用，这早在我们拥有大量资源之前，我们就必须利用时间和金钱将令人印象深刻的东西放在屏幕上，始终思考我们可以做些什么来进一步推动视频游戏媒介和构建虚假世界的媒介。
And that was always…
那总是……
there was, it was both clarity of, “Here’s what we’re trying to do.
很明显，“这就是我们正在努力做的事情。
Here’s what the tone of the game is going to be.
这就是游戏的基调。
Here’s how features will fit into that, and so why these features would work and these features wouldn’t work.” Because fundamentally by 2002, you could put pretty much any feature into a game you wanted.
以下是功能如何融入其中，以及为什么这些功能有效而无效的原因。”因为从根本上来说，到 2002 年，你几乎可以将任何你想要的功能放入游戏中。
It wasn’t a technical limitation.
这不是技术限制。
It was just making it cohesive.
这只是让它具有凝聚力。
And then it was also just everyone committing to a culture of excellence.
然后，每个人都致力于营造卓越的文化。
Navid Khansari, an award-winning director and virtual reality game maker- …who worked with you on a number of Grand Theft Auto games spoke highly about his time working with you.
Navid Khansari 是一位屡获殊荣的导演和虚拟现实游戏制作人……他曾与您合作制作了多款侠盗猎车手游戏，他高度评价了与您合作的时光。
54:55 Quote, “We always worked ourselves to the bone, but it wasn’t coming from the top down.
引用：“我们总是全力以赴，但这并不是自上而下的。
Sam and Dan always rolled up their sleeves and they were always there.
萨姆和丹总是卷起袖子，他们总是在那里。
They never left us holding the bag.
他们从来没有让我们背负包袱。
We all thought we were making badass shit, so it didn’t matter how hard we worked.” So I’m sure there were some tough grinds.
我们都认为我们正在做一些糟糕的事情，所以无论我们多么努力工作都没有关系。”所以我确信有一些艰难的磨练。
I think finishing it is certainly tough, but it also is intensely rewarding.
我认为完成它当然很困难，但它也是非常有意义的。
55:24 And you get something done, and you’ve made something.
你完成了一些事情，并且你已经做出了一些事情。
And that feeling is, as you say, really, really incredible.
正如你所说，那种感觉真的非常非常令人难以置信。
I mean, it can sometimes feel a bit empty as well because when you’re finished, you’re like, “Then my life’s got nothing to it,” and then you have to…
我的意思是，有时也会感觉有点空虚，因为当你完成时，你会想，“那么我的生活就没有什么了，”然后你必须……
you know, but that’s the same with any big undertaking that you take.
你知道，但这对于你承担的任何重大事业都是一样的。
I don’t think there are…
我认为没有……
You know, when you’re working that hard, you do not have a good work/life balance.
你知道，当你工作那么努力时，你就无法很好地平衡工作与生活。
But the truth is you’re not working that hard all of the time, so you just have to…
但事实是你并没有一直那么努力工作，所以你只需要……
…Just manage it slightly differently.
......只是稍微不同地管理它。
Man, that’s such a heavy thing about the human experience.
伙计，这对于人类的经历来说是一件非常沉重的事情。
55:55 I’ve talked to Olympic gold medal winners and many of them face real depression after they win the gold medal.
我与奥运会金牌获得者交谈过，他们中的许多人在获得金牌后都面临着真正的抑郁症。
56:05 Because they’ve been pursuing a thing that they deeply care about.
因为他们一直在追求自己深切关心的事情。
This has been everything and they’re so truly happy to do it, and then it’s like, “What else is there in life?” Compared to this, what else is there?
这就是一切，他们真的很高兴这样做，然后就会想，“生活中还有什么？”与此相比，还有什么？
So that’s the ups and downs of life.
所以这就是人生的起起落落。
You need the darkness and you need the lows to really experience the highs.
你需要黑暗，你需要低谷才能真正体验高潮。
Let me ask you about the pressure.
我想问一下你的压力。
There’s an insane level of excitement and expectation for Grand Theft Auto VI.
人们对《侠盗猎车手 6》充满了疯狂的兴奋和期待。
Same was true for GTA V and GTA IV, and even before that.
GTA V 和 GTA IV 也是如此，甚至更早。
And you and the team delivered every time.
你和你的团队每次都能交付成果。
How difficult was it to do creative work under such pressure where everyone expects this to be a success?
在这么大的压力下，大家都期望能成功，做创造性的工作有多困难？
I was pretty good at compartmentalizing, you know, and just saying…
我很擅长区分，你知道，只是说……
56:53 And I try just to go, and with all creative work, I go, “Well, I feel like a terrible fraud, but I haven’t been found out yet.
我试着走开，并进行了所有创造性的工作，我说：“好吧，我感觉自己像个可怕的骗子，但我还没有被发现。
Just do my best and hopefully I won’t be found out this time.” And if I can go, “I tried hard with the work.
尽我所能，希望这次我不会被发现。”如果我可以去的话，“我很努力地工作。
I tried to do it with integrity.
我试图诚信地做到这一点。
I tried not to copy someone else.
我试着不去模仿别人。
I have probably done all of the above,” you know, try to bring something new to it.
我可能已经完成了上述所有内容，”你知道，尝试为它带来一些新的东西。
And we, as a group, made something we are proud of.
作为一个团队，我们做出了令我们感到自豪的事情。
Then that’s enough.
那么就足够了。
You can’t…
你不能……
If you don’t want to go insane, I couldn’t sit there and worry about financial results.
如果你不想发疯，我就不能坐在那里担心财务业绩。
57:35 You know, if we made something great and it didn’t sell, that would have to be okay.
你知道，如果我们做出了很棒的东西但没有卖出去，那也没关系。
Because the goal is to make something that’s…
因为我们的目标是做出一些……
You know, video games are expensive, so it is a commercial form of creativity.
要知道，电子游戏价格昂贵，因此它是一种商业形式的创造力。
It’s a commercial art form, you know.
你知道，这是一种商业艺术形式。
So you have to be, in your mind, you’re spending large amounts of someone else’s money.
所以，在你看来，你一定是在花别人的大量钱。
You have to try and make it back for them.
你必须努力为他们争取回来。
But at the same time, my argument with myself was, well, if we…
但与此同时，我对自己的争论是，好吧，如果我们……
The way to make it back is try and make something great.
挽回局面的方法就是尝试做出一些伟大的事情。
So both pressures are pointing in the same direction.
所以两个压力都指向同一个方向。
I think GTA IV was very pressured because there’d been all this pressure on the company.
我认为 GTA IV 压力很大，因为公司承受了所有这些压力。
The company nearly imploded several times due to Hot Coffee.
由于热咖啡，该公司几次几乎崩溃。
It was extremely tough.
这非常艰难。
58:17 So I think that felt very stressful.
所以我认为那感觉非常有压力。
GTA III, the company was basically broke.
GTA III，公司基本破产了。
58:21 But I was young and didn’t really care.
但我还年轻，并不太在意。
You know, it wasn’t…
你知道，这不是……
I wasn’t living in the grown-up world yet.
我还没有生活在成年人的世界里。
All of them had their own pressure.
他们都有各自的压力。
All of the games had their own pressure.
所有的比赛都有自己的压力。
All the more I felt I’d gone into it creatively and tried to be more ambitious, for me personally, I felt more pressure, you know, when it came out that that would have been the right choice.
我越发觉得我已经创造性地投入其中并试图变得更加雄心勃勃，就我个人而言，当结果证明那将是正确的选择时，我感到更大的压力。
Because again, if you’re trying to take big swings creatively and you’ve spent a lot of money, that can be quite stressful.
因为，如果你想创造性地做出大的改变并且你已经花了很多钱，那可能会带来很大的压力。
You know, I think with Red Dead 2, when, you know, we were behind schedule.
你知道，我认为在《荒野大镖客 2》中，我们落后于计划。
We were over budget so much I didn’t want to think about it.
我们超出了预算太多，我不想考虑它。
And you’re making a game about a cowboy dying of TB and the game’s not coming together.
你正在制作一款关于一名牛仔死于结核病的游戏，但游戏却无法完成。
59:02 Turns out a lot of people doubt you at that moment.
事实证明，当时很多人都怀疑你。
It’s not that fun.
这没那么有趣。
So I think that was a lot of pressure.
所以我认为这是很大的压力。
But anything, doing something new, the new stuff, there’s not necessarily pressure on releasing a comic book or in the same way because it’s not taken as long, but if you’re making things, there’s always pressure that people are going to like it.
但任何事情，做一些新的事情，新的东西，发行漫画书或以同样的方式不一定有压力，因为它不需要那么长的时间，但如果你在制作东西，总会有人们会喜欢它的压力。
Why do you think there was so much excitement about GTA IV, GTA V, and now GTA VI?
您认为为什么《侠盗猎车手 IV》、《侠盗猎车手 V》和现在的《侠盗猎车手 VI》如此令人兴奋？
Because they don’t come out that regularly.
因为他们不经常出来。
59:25 And I think we did a really good job of constantly innovating within what the IP was.
我认为我们在知识产权领域不断创新方面做得非常好。
The games always felt different.
游戏总是给人不同的感觉。
People have very strong feelings: “I like this one.
人们有非常强烈的感觉：“我喜欢这个。”
I didn’t like that one as much,” because they are pretty different.
我不太喜欢那个，”因为它们非常不同。
So you would…
所以你会……
There would be simultaneously where you know what’s going to happen.
同时你知道会发生什么。
It’s a Grand Theft Auto, you know, it’s going to be a game about being a criminal, but the way it’s going to be a game is going to change quite a lot.
这是一款《侠盗猎车手》，你知道，这将是一款关于成为罪犯的游戏，但它的游戏方式将会发生很大的变化。
So I think the way the IP kept evolving made people really excited to play it.
所以我认为 IP 不断发展的方式让人们非常兴奋地玩它。
And we were good at marketing them as well.
我们也擅长营销它们。
We really tried to market them in a way that felt like an update of classic film marketing, where you were really…
我们真的尝试以一种感觉像是经典电影营销的更新的方式来营销它们，你真的......
1:00:03 It felt like you’re already in the product just because you’d seen the trailers and stuff.
感觉就像你已经在产品中了，只是因为你看过预告片之类的东西。
You’ve mentioned that you haven’t written for Grand Theft Auto VI.
你提到过你还没有为《侠盗猎车手 VI》写过剧本。
1:00:06 What’s it feel like Grand Theft Auto VI returning to Vice City?
《侠盗猎车手 6》重返罪恶都市感觉如何？
This is over 20 years later, but the original GTA Vice City game was set in the ’80s.
这是 20 多年后的事了，但原版《GTA 罪恶都市》游戏的背景设定在 80 年代。
So maybe inspired by Scarface a little bit?
那么也许受到了《疤面煞星》的启发？
Scarface, Miami Vice.
《疤面煞星》、《迈阿密风云》。
Miami Vice.
迈阿密副。
And our ’80s childhoods.
还有我们八十年代的童年。
1:00:25 You know what I realized quite a while ago, unfortunately, was that we made that game, and it was set, I think, in ’86.
不幸的是，你知道我很久以前就意识到，我们制作了这款游戏，而且我认为它是在 86 年设定的。
We made it in 2002, so 16 years after.
我们在 2002 年做到了这一点，也就是 16 年后。
And now it’s way past 16 years since Vice City came out.
如今，《罪恶都市》问世已经过去 16 年了。
So the ’80s were not that long ago when we made it.
所以我们成功的时候，80 年代并不是很久以前的事了。
I think Miami is one of the most unique cities in the world.
我认为迈阿密是世界上最独特的城市之一。
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
Especially if you’re thinking about satirizing American culture, it has this duality of a glossy surface and a dark underworld.
特别是如果你想讽刺美国文化，它具有光鲜亮丽的表面和黑暗的地下世界的二元性。
1:00:50 It has the influencers.
它有影响力。
It has the crypto bros, the yachts, bikinis, plastic surgery, sports cars, drugs, cartel cash, luxury, super-rich people, and the desperately poor, just the whole of it.
它有加密货币兄弟、游艇、比基尼、整容手术、跑车、毒品、卡特尔现金、奢侈品、超级富豪和赤贫者，就是这一切。
Would it be the perfect city to explore the full cast of characters that are possible, that human nature can generate?
它会是探索人性所能产生的全部可能角色的完美城市吗？
I think it’s one of them.
我认为这是其中之一。
1:01:18 There’s a reason why GTA kept coming back to Miami, New York, Los Angeles.
GTA 不断回到迈阿密、纽约、洛杉矶是有原因的。
I think they’re all very good for exactly what you laid out.
我认为它们都非常适合您所布置的内容。
You could say move it to any of those, and it would work.
你可以说把它移到其中任何一个，它就会起作用。
So yeah, there’s a melting pot…
是的，有一个熔炉……
Melt…
融化…
…aspect in New York also, right?
……纽约也有这样的情况，对吧？
Yeah, melting.
是啊，融化了。
1:01:35 Yeah, melting aspect to LA.
是的，洛杉矶的融化面貌。
You know, there’s glitz, glamour, underbelly, immigrants, enormous wealth in all of them.
你知道，他们身上都有浮华、魅力、弱点、移民和巨大的财富。
I think those are what I think are really fun for any, not even just the GTA, but for anything where you want a kind of slice of life, almost like a sort of psychotic version of a Dickens book.
我认为这些对任何人来说都是真正有趣的，甚至不仅仅是《侠盗猎车手》，而是对任何你想要生活片段的东西来说，几乎就像狄更斯小说的精神病版本。
You know, this big slice of life—he did it with London.
你知道，人生的这一重要部分——他是在伦敦度过的。
You know, this psychotic version of these, you know, big, all kinds of characters in a melting pot.
你知道，这个精神病版本的这些，你知道，大熔炉里的各种角色。
Any of these global cities work well for that.
这些全球城市中的任何一个都可以很好地实现这一点。
Do you know if that was ever a consideration to go elsewhere to like a London?
你知道去其他地方喜欢伦敦是否曾经考虑过吗？
We made a little thing in London 26 years ago, GTA London, for the top-down, for the PS1.
26 年前，我们在伦敦制作了一个小东西，GTA London，为自上而下的 PS1 制作。
1:02:11 That was pretty cute and fun.
那非常可爱又有趣。
As the first mission pack ever for PlayStation 1.
作为 PlayStation 1 的第一个任务包。
I think for a full GTA game, we always decided it was that there was so much Americana inherent in the IP, it would be really hard to make it work in London or anywhere else.
我认为对于一款完整的 GTA 游戏，我们总是认为 IP 中固有的美国元素太多，因此很难让它在伦敦或其他任何地方运行。
You know, you needed guns, you needed these larger-than-life characters.
你知道，你需要枪支，你需要这些具有传奇色彩的角色。
It just felt like the game was so much about America, possibly from an outsider’s perspective.
可能从局外人的角度来看，这款游戏似乎与美国息息相关。
But you know, that was so much about what the thing was that it wouldn’t really have worked in the same way elsewhere.
但你知道，事情的本质是如此重要，以至于在其他地方它不会以同样的方式发挥作用。
So you’ve, you’ve created, I don’t know how many, over 10 Grand Theft Auto games.
所以你，你已经创造了，我不知道有多少，超过10个侠盗猎车手游戏。
I think so.
我想是的。
I have to ask, is it a little bit bittersweet to not be part, to say goodbye to the Grand Theft Auto world and having to watch Grand Theft Auto VI released?
我不得不问，不参与《侠盗猎车手》世界、不得不观看《侠盗猎车手 VI》的发布，是不是有点苦乐参半？
1:02:58 Or is it more excitement?
还是更兴奋？
What’s the feeling?
什么感觉？
I think it’s…
我认为这是……
1:03:12 how would I describe it?
我该如何描述呢？
Of course, it’s all of the above.
当然，以上就是全部了。
You know, it’s exactly as you know, pleased to be doing other stuff, excited for what we’re working on now, super excited of course, letting go of something I worked on in one way or another for like 20 odd years.
你知道，正如你所知，很高兴能做其他事情，对我们现在正在做的事情感到兴奋，当然超级兴奋，放弃了我以这种或那种方式工作了大约 20 年的东西。
You know, and wrote on them for the last 10 or 11 that came out, wrote all of them, or, you know, lead writer on all of them, whatever it was.
你知道，并在最后 10 或 11 个发布的内容上写了它们，写了所有这些，或者，你知道，所有这些的首席作家，无论是什么。
So of course, letting go of that is, you know, a big change, and sad in a way.
当然，你知道，放弃这一点是一个很大的变化，在某种程度上也是令人悲伤的。
1:03:53 Because each of the games was a kind of standalone story, it’s not quite the same as I think probably it would be in some ways sadder if someone continued on Red Dead, because it was a cohesive two-game arc.
因为每款游戏都是一种独立的故事，所以不太一样，我认为如果有人继续玩《Red Dead》，可能会在某些方面更悲伤，因为这是一个有凝聚力的两场游戏故事线。
That might be more sad to hear someone working on that.
听到有人在做这件事可能会更令人难过。
But again, that will probably happen too.
但同样，这也可能会发生。
I don’t own the IP.
我不拥有IP。
That was the sort of part of the deal.
这就是交易的一部分。
It’s a privilege to work on stuff, but you don’t necessarily own it.
从事某些工作是一种荣幸，但你不一定拥有它。
When you’re done with the game, does it always feel like a goodbye?
当你玩完游戏后，是否总有一种告别的感觉？
1:04:21 Like when you’re done with Red Dead 2, is it like you’re saying goodbye to Arthur?
就像当你玩完《荒野大镖客 2》后，你是不是正在向亚瑟说再见？
Like the characters you created, you’re walking away.
就像你创造的角色一样，你正在走开。
You kind of are saying goodbye to Arthur in the end of the game.
在游戏的最后，你就像是在向亚瑟说再见。
1:04:32 Even before the end of the game, yeah, I think you’ve been with them for seven, eight years, and you have to kind of let it go or you can’t go on to the next one.
是的，即使在比赛结束之前，我想你已经和他们在一起七、八年了，你必须放手，否则你就无法继续下一场比赛。
So, there’s always this thing of, “Okay, that’s done.” And sometimes people would ask me questions about older games.
所以，总是会有这样的事情，“好吧，完成了。”有时人们会问我有关旧游戏的问题。
And certainly when I was in the middle of making new ones, I just couldn’t really necessarily even remember.
当然，当我正在制作新的时，我真的不一定记得。
And I got a pretty good memory normally, because you kind of have to let it go.
我通常记忆力很好，因为你必须放手。
So, you’re so immersed in it and thinking about it.
所以，你如此沉浸其中并思考它。
And certainly in that last period, the last few months, you’re really, really immersed in every little nuance and every little detail all of the time.
当然，在最后一段时间，最后几个月，你真的、真的一直沉浸在每一个细微差别和每一个小细节中。
And then you’re just not thinking about it in the same way.
然后你就不会以同样的方式思考它了。
Yeah.
是的。
1:05:12 It’s funny, from the player perspective, it feels like an old friend that I miss, whether it’s John or Arthur or Nico, it’s a real goodbye.
有趣的是，从玩家的角度来看，感觉就像是我想念的一个老朋友，无论是约翰还是亚瑟还是尼科，都是真正的告别。
There’s a real sadness to finishing a video game.
完成一款电子游戏确实让人感到悲伤。
I hope so
我希望如此
…legitimately…
…合法地…
1:05:24 …A sad experience, not just because the story is sad, or…
......一次悲伤的经历，不仅仅是因为故事是悲伤的，或者......
Because you’ve been with them so long.
因为你和他们在一起这么久了。
And it’s a real goodbye to close it.
关闭它是真正的告别。
1:05:32 There’s that feeling when you’ve closed the video game, and it’s like saying goodbye to a friend.
当你关闭电子游戏时会有这种感觉，就像和朋友说再见一样。
And it’s…
这是……
That’s when you finish a book you love.
那是你读完一本你喜欢的书的时候。
1:05:43 It’s the same feeling.
这是同样的感觉。
Same feeling.
同感。
And I think that was something that we really, in the early days of Rockstar, really aspired to have that, where people would have that.
我认为这是我们在 Rockstar 早期真正渴望拥有的东西，人们也会拥有它。
1:05:46 It wasn’t just the mania of clearing a level, but the feeling of saying goodbye to characters.
这不仅仅是通关的狂热，还有与角色告别的感觉。
You know, I think that was something we really wanted to achieve in games that we didn’t know was even possible.
你知道，我认为这是我们真正想在游戏中实现的目标，但我们甚至不知道这是可能的。
So to hear people say that is incredibly rewarding.
因此，听到人们这么说是非常值得的。
Yeah, the end of On The Road by Kerouac, “Forlorn rags of growing old.” I just remember closing that and thinking, “What the fuck am I doing in this big world?” It’s a melancholic feeling, but there’s nothing like that feeling, and you’ve achieved that.
是的，凯鲁亚克的《在路上》的结尾，“孤独的变老的破布”。我只记得关闭它并想：“我他妈的在这个大世界里做什么？”这是一种忧郁的感觉，但没有什么比这种感觉更好的了，而你已经做到了。
1:06:09 It’s so rare in video games to be able to achieve that with Red Dead, and for me it was Grand Theft Auto IV with Nico.
在 Red Dead 中能够实现这一目标在视频游戏中非常罕见，对我来说，这是 Nico 的《侠盗猎车手 IV》。
I have to ask about, in the 2018 interview, you talked about satirizing American culture, which I think Grand Theft Auto was trying to do.
我想问一下，在2018年的采访中，你谈到了讽刺美国文化，我认为侠盗猎车手就是想这么做。
And you’ve made, I think, a really powerful observation that on the political front people are getting more divided.
我认为，你提出了一个非常有力的观察，即在政治方面，人们的分歧越来越大。
It’s getting more absurd, ridiculous, and extreme, so becoming harder and harder to satirize because of how rapidly it’s becoming ridiculous.
它变得越来越荒唐、可笑、极端，因此变得越来越难讽刺，因为它变得越来越荒谬。
1:06:53 You’re talking about, you don’t even know if a Grand Theft Auto VI is possible to satirize, because by the time you release the thing, it’s already going to be outdated in terms of the satire will become reality essentially.
你说的是，你甚至不知道侠盗猎车手VI是否可以讽刺，因为当你发布这个东西时，它已经过时了，因为讽刺本质上将成为现实。
First of all, it’d be nice to get your updated view on that, and second of all, it seems like you’ve answered your very own comment with American Caper, which seems to satirize American culture just fine in how much over the top it goes.
首先，很高兴能得到你对此的最新看法，其次，你似乎已经用《美国的雀跃》回答了你自己的评论，这似乎很好地讽刺了美国文化，因为它有多么过分。
Anyway, that’s lots of questions in there.
无论如何，里面有很多问题。
One of the things we’ve enjoyed about doing a comic book is that we are it still has lead times.
我们喜欢制作漫画书的原因之一是它仍然有交货时间。
1:07:26 But the lead times are not four or five years.
但交货时间不是四五年。
The lead times are, you know, a year when we’re putting…
你知道，交货时间是一年，我们将……
We can make little updates much, much newer.
我们可以做很多更新的小更新。
And we’re, you know, we’re just wrapping issue 10 of a 12-issue arc for that.
你知道，我们刚刚完成了 12 期的第 10 期。
So it’s not quite…
所以这并不完全是……
It’s not quite as difficult.
这并不那么困难。
You still can get the tone of it.
你还是能听出它的语气。
But yeah, I think it’s an issue anyone trying to talk about this current era, which began in 2015, 2016, is going to have of how do you characterize it when things move so quickly and so fast?
但是，是的，我认为任何试图谈论这个始于 2015 年、2016 年的当前时代的人都会遇到一个问题：当事情发展得如此之快、如此之快时，你如何描述它？
So American Caper is, first of all, an epic comic book.
因此，《美国惊魂》首先是一本史诗般的漫画书。
1:08:07 I love it, the art.
我喜欢它，艺术。
Yeah, the art’s beautiful.
是的，艺术很美。
1:08:11 David Lapham is the artist.
大卫·拉帕姆是一位艺术家。
He did an amazing job.
他做得非常出色。
He is a wonderful, wonderful storyteller.
他是一位非常棒的讲故事的人。
What made you want to set it in Wyoming?
是什么让你想把它设置在怀俄明州？
I hadn’t seen a modern story there that I knew about.
我在那里没有看过我所知道的现代故事。
1:08:21 I’d started to spend a bit more time in the Rockies and in the West, and I was like…
我开始在落基山脉和西部花更多的时间，我就像……
I’d spent a lot of time in, like, the countryside in Upstate New York and thought I never really captured it quite right.
我在纽约州北部的乡村度过了很多时间，但我认为我从来没有真正正确地捕捉到它。
And just the idea of these places as they change didn’t…
只是这些地方的想法随着它们的改变并没有……
It was a way of doing a crime story that didn’t feel the same as a GTA.
这是一种制作犯罪故事的方式，感觉与 GTA 不同。
You know, it was not somewhere you would necessarily set a GTA, but it felt like it was really interesting and under-explored.
你知道，这不是一个你一定会设置 GTA 的地方，但感觉它真的很有趣并且尚未得到充分探索。
And there is over-the-top stuff.
还有一些过度的东西。
1:08:49 There’s- there’s…
有——有……
It’s definitely slightly over the top.
这绝对有点过头了。
So let me take notes on this.
所以让我对此做笔记。
1:08:53 There’s a spoiler alert, I guess, from the first issue, I believe.
我想，我相信，从第一期开始就有剧透警报。
There’s a devout suburban Mormon who commits, I think, serial murder with a shovel as a form of religious atonement.
我认为，郊区有一位虔诚的摩门教徒，他用铲子实施连环谋杀，作为一种宗教赎罪的形式。
He is not necessarily, you know, the sharpest tool in the box.
你知道，他不一定是盒子里最锋利的工具。
1:09:07 And his rather cynical boss is using his religion and some mistakes he’s made to blackmail him into murdering business associates.
而他相当愤世嫉俗的老板正在利用他的宗教信仰和他所犯的一些错误来勒索他谋杀商业伙伴。
And of course, there’s this Shakespearean sort of two neighbors situation, and each of them having a duality of who they are in terms of good and evil.
当然，还有莎士比亚式的两个邻居的情况，每个人都有善与恶的二元性。
1:09:23 So there’s a Wall Street transplant who wants to be a cowboy.
所以有一个华尔街移植者想成为一名牛仔。
Yes.
是的。
Who loves to manually harvest bull semen.
喜欢手动采集公牛精液的人。
1:09:37 Accurate?
准确的？
I mean…
我的意思是……
Yes.
是的。
These are the notes I’ve been taking.
这些是我一直在做的笔记。
Yes.
是的。
1:09:45 He is a, um…
他是一个，嗯……
He is a somewhat confused, longevity-obsessed…
他是一个有点困惑、痴迷于长寿的人……
Rich dude who’s run away to Wyoming and is living out an assortment of fantasies.
一个富有的家伙逃到了怀俄明州，过着各种各样的幻想。
And bull semen is a big component of longevity.
公牛精液是长寿的重要组成部分。
Yes.
是的。
1:09:58 He’s very into all the life hacking, you know, roiding HGH and making money.
他非常热衷于生活黑客，你知道，利用 HGH 赚钱。
Has lost his mind living on a big ranch.
住在大牧场上已经失去了理智。
Of course, on the theme of satire, there is a woman who sleeps in tactical gear and is consumed by online conspiracies, like especially pedophiles in DC.
当然，在讽刺的主题上，有一个女人穿着战术装备睡觉，并被网络阴谋所吞噬，尤其是华盛顿的恋童癖者。
Yes.
是的。
1:10:19 Based on someone I know, who got completely red-pilled.
根据我认识的一个人的说法，他完全是红色的。
And I was fascinated by the fact that this was happening to people.
我对这种事发生在人们身上的事实感到着迷。
Yeah, so, you know, satire of American culture.
是的，所以，你知道，对美国文化的讽刺。
1:10:29 Quick pause.
快速暂停。
Bathroom break?
上厕所休息？
Sure.
当然。
I think GTA5 had the biggest launch in video game history, and GTA6 has the potential to top that.
我认为 GTA5 是电子游戏历史上规模最大的发布，而 GTA6 有潜力超越这一点。
1:10:35 First of all, do you think it will?
首先，你觉得会吗？
And more broadly, what was your definition of success for a video game?
更广泛地说，您对视频游戏成功的定义是什么？
I would assume it will because it’s so anticipated, and anticipation is the best driver of early sales, as we saw with GTA4 versus Red Dead Redemption one.
我认为会是这样，因为它是如此令人期待，而预期是早期销售的最佳驱动力，正如我们在《GTA4》与《荒野大镖客：救赎》中所看到的那样。
1:10:50 You know, GTA4, far more anticipated, sold much better early on.
你知道，GTA4 更受期待，早期销量也好得多。
So I would assume it will sell really well.
所以我认为它会卖得很好。
That was never my definition of success, but you certainly wanted to make money.
这从来不是我对成功的定义，但你肯定想赚钱。
You know, you’re spending someone’s money.
你知道，你花的是别人的钱。
So the number one success is, are you making that money back plus a dollar?
所以，最重要的成功是，你能把这笔钱赚回来，再加上一美元吗？
At some level, that has to be…
在某种程度上，这必须是……
That has to be the single most important thing so you get to do it again.
这必须是最重要的事情，这样你才能再做一次。
You know, you’ve got big teams of people.
你知道，你有很多人。
People need to pay the rent.
人们需要支付房租。
You have to keep the lights on in the business, so you have to make a small profit.
你必须维持生意，所以你必须赚取微薄的利润。
If you think in that way, that keeps you being creative.
如果你这样思考，你就会保持创造力。
1:11:36 I think that was like…
我认为那就像……
Trying to forget about that, it’s not really an option, but we almost always did that.
试图忘记这一点，这并不是一个真正的选择，但我们几乎总是这样做。
We didn’t quite always do that, but we almost always did that.
我们并不总是这样做，但我们几乎总是这样做。
I think the definition of success for me was, had we tried to do new things and done them, or achieved some of our goals.
我认为对我来说成功的定义是，我们是否尝试做新的事情并完成了它们，或者实现了我们的一些目标。
That was the thing that mattered.
这才是最重要的。
Again, were people responding to these worlds and these characters in a way that I wanted them to?
再说一遍，人们是否以我希望的方式对这些世界和这些角色做出反应？
Is it crazy to you that video games are able to make billions of dollars, when if you look at, like, the ’80s and ’90s, you know, nobody took video games seriously.
电子游戏能够赚数十亿美元，你是否觉得很疯狂，如果你看看 80 年代和 90 年代，你知道，没有人认真对待电子游戏。
1:11:59 And even in the aughts, it…
即使在一些事情上，它......
And now they’re basically…
现在他们基本上……
I mean, it’s very possible if you look out 10, 20 years from now that video games surpass film as a way to consume stories.
我的意思是，如果你展望 10、20 年后，电子游戏作为消费故事的方式很有可能超越电影。
I think they’ve possibly already done that in some ways.
我认为他们可能已经在某些方面做到了这一点。
1:12:21 And certainly, as a business proposition, they’ve already done that.
当然，作为一项商业主张，他们已经这样做了。
But I think that’s not…
但我认为这不是……
You know, as a way of telling stories, I think they’re better at telling certain kinds of stories, and films are better at other kinds of stories.
你知道，作为一种讲故事的方式，我认为他们更擅长讲某些类型的故事，而电影更擅长讲其他类型的故事。
You know, I think, I think if you want a long, discursive adventure, a video game is better.
你知道，我认为，如果你想要一场漫长的、散漫的冒险，电子游戏会更好。
If you want a short, tight experience, a film is better.
如果你想要短暂而紧凑的体验，电影会更好。
We always felt games were the coming medium.
我们一直认为游戏是即将到来的媒介。
And so, spent 20 years saying, “Games are the future.
因此，他花了 20 年的时间说：“游戏就是未来。
Games are the future.” And, you know, being sneered at, then being laughed at, then having people nod their heads, and then it kind of happening.
游戏就是未来。”而且，你知道，被嘲笑，然后被嘲笑，然后人们点头，然后就发生了这种情况。
So I would…
所以我会……
1:13:03 Well, you know, at the same time, much as you might say something, you don’t necessarily believe it’s gonna be true.
嗯，你知道，与此同时，尽管你可能会说一些话，但你不一定相信它会是真的。
But it has become true, and I think still that games are only gonna get better, more interesting, more creatively, you know, diverse.
但这已经成为事实，而且我仍然认为游戏只会变得更好、更有趣、更有创意、更多样化。
You said that Red Dead Redemption 2, in your opinion, is the best thing you’ve ever done.
您说过《荒野大镖客：救赎 2》在您看来是您做过的最好的事情。
1:13:18 I think there’s a strong case to be made that it’s the greatest game of all time.
我认为有充分的理由证明这是有史以来最伟大的游戏。
What are the elements that make that game truly great, do you think?
您认为是什么元素让这款游戏真正出色？
I think you had an incredibly strong team working together that was very experienced, that had basically been in place since somewhere between 2001 and 2006.
我认为你们有一个非常强大的团队，他们一起工作，经验丰富，基本上从 2001 年到 2006 年之间就已经存在了。
1:13:30 So it was a long, experienced team.
所以这是一个长期、经验丰富的团队。
I think we got to spend a smaller group of us working on it from day one, coming up with some wacky ideas that we got to embed in the game, and then we kind of had to follow through with.
我认为我们必须从第一天起就花一小部分人来研究它，提出一些我们必须嵌入到游戏中的古怪想法，然后我们必须坚持到底。
But I think it was helpful that we got to be very creative before it had a full team on it.
但我认为，在组建完整的团队之前，我们必须非常有创意，这很有帮助。
I think that the cowboy setting is great because it gives a sort of mythic seriousness that sometimes doing stuff in a contemporary setting doesn’t allow.
我认为牛仔的设定很棒，因为它给人一种神话般的严肃性，而有时在当代环境中做事是不允许的。
You know, I think the closest we got to that kind of seriousness was GTA IV, but it just can’t…
你知道，我认为我们最接近这种严肃性的是《GTA IV》，但它就是不能……
1:14:18 Once you’re setting things in the modern world, they’re too frenetic.
一旦你把事情设定在现代世界，它们就太疯狂了。
You can’t get some of that slightly, you know, operatic feel that I love.
你无法获得我喜欢的那种轻微的、你知道的、歌剧的感觉。
That some people think is maybe a little over the top, but I, you know, I love this kind of, you know, people searching for meaning…
有些人认为可能有点过分了，但我，你知道，我喜欢这种，你知道，人们寻找意义......
…Within, amongst the violence.
……在暴力之中。
I think that the West and all of the themes around the West really lend themselves to that.
我认为西方以及围绕西方的所有主题确实适合这一点。
So I think that, and then the gunplay was fantastic, and the horses were incredible.
所以我认为，枪战非常棒，马匹也令人难以置信。
So I think you had this combination of kind of technical know-how, a very, very strong team, and really strong material.
所以我认为你们拥有技术知识、非常非常强大的团队和非常强大的材料的结合。
Where did you have to go to in your mind, maybe philosophically, maybe spiritually, to be able to create the RDR world?
为了能够创造 RDR 世界，你必须去思考什么，也许是哲学上的，也许是精神上的？
1:14:51 So of course it was based on Red Dead Revolver, but that’s-
当然，它是基于《荒野大镖客：左轮手枪》，但那是——
Yes
是的
That’s a fundamentally different…
这是根本不同的……
1:15:02 I mean, that leap into the great mythic story that was Red Dead Redemption one.
我的意思是，一跃进入了《荒野大镖客：救赎》这个伟大的神话故事。
And then even more so, Red Dead Redemption two.
更何况《荒野大镖客：救赎2》。
That was unlike anything you, or maybe anyone, has ever created in video games.
这与你或任何人在电子游戏中创造的任何东西都不同。
Thank you.
谢谢。
So, like, what drugs were involved?
那么，涉及哪些药物？
No drugs.
没有药物。
Okay.
好的。
No.
不。
1:15:26 Stopped the drugs long before.
早就停药了。
Okay.
好的。
That’s why I did all that work.
这就是我做所有这些工作的原因。
1:15:28 Had nothing else to do.
没有别的事可做。
So yeah, open-world video games were very good for my mental health in that way.
所以，是的，开放世界电子游戏对我的心理健康非常有益。
Kept me busy.
让我很忙。
But Red, so Red Dead…
但是红色，所以红色死亡......
I’ll tell, I’ll give you my version.
我会告诉你，我会给你我的版本。
Now the games are made by big teams.
现在游戏都是由大团队制作的。
1:15:45 So I, but I will give you my human interest version of the story from my perspective only.
所以我，但我只会从我的角度给你讲我的故事的人性化版本。
We made Red Dead Revolver, decided that, or finished Red Dead Revolver, that had been a Capcom game.
我们制作了《Red Dead Revolver》，并决定或者完成了《Red Dead Revolver》，那是一款 Capcom 游戏。
And they didn’t want to finish it, so we finished it.
他们不想完成它，所以我们完成了它。
And they released it in Japan and we released it in the US in, I think, 2004.
他们在日本发行了它，我们在美国发行了它，我想是 2004 年。
And decided we would start work on an open-world cowboy game for PS3.
并决定开始为 PS3 开发一款开放世界牛仔游戏。
Didn’t think too much more about it, and that was when we did a bunch of other stuff to work on.
没有想太多，就在那时我们做了很多其他的事情要做。
And slowly, 2005, 2006, the game started to come to life.
慢慢地，2005年、2006年，这个游戏开始变得栩栩如生。
Began to meet with the lead designer, Christian Cantamessa, and thrash out a few ideas and story ideas for the game, and begin to think about some stuff.
开始与首席设计师克里斯蒂安·坎塔梅萨（Christian Cantamessa）会面，研究出游戏的一些想法和故事创意，并开始思考一些东西。
And start thinking about, well, what works for an open-world game?
然后开始思考，什么对开放世界游戏有效？
1:16:35 What works for a cowboy game?
什么适合牛仔游戏？
And again, I was being lazy or procrastinating.
再说一次，我很懒惰或拖延。
Can we just go on a small tangent?
我们可以走一个小切线吗？
1:16:41 When you mentioned you take notes when you’re being lazy, what do those notes look like?
当你提到你偷懒时会做笔记时，这些笔记是什么样的？
Are they like doodles?
它们像涂鸦吗？
They look like either, either a yellow pad…
它们看起来要么是，要么是黄色的垫子……
1:16:48 …Or a BlackBerry in those days, or an iPhone in these days.
......或者当时的黑莓手机，或者现在的iPhone。
I’ll write the subject matter and then just email myself a note.
我会写下主题，然后给自己发一封电子邮件。
1:16:58 Here’s a good idea, here’s a good idea.
这是一个好主意，这是一个好主意。
Or it might be scribbling on a pad.
或者可能是在本子上乱写乱画。
And then I’ll assemble…
然后我会集合……
If they’re done digitally, then I’ll assemble them into one long Word file.
如果它们是以数字方式完成的，那么我会将它们组装成一个长的 Word 文件。
And then I’ll look at them and go, “Here’s an idea, here’s an idea, here’s an idea.” And see if it comes to anything.
然后我会看着他们说：“这是一个想法，这是一个想法，这是一个想法。”看看是否有什么结果。
See if I now aggregate them together and then read through them.
看看我现在是否将它们汇总在一起，然后通读它们。
Is there anything coherent there?
这里面有什么连贯的东西吗？
You know, something about the character like this, the character like that.
你知道，关于这样的角色，那样的角色。
This would be a funny line.
这将是一句有趣的台词。
This is a line for the main character.
这是主角的台词。
Actually, make the main character work like this.
其实，让主角这样工作。
You know, what about this relationship?
你知道，这段关系怎么样？
1:17:29 As you start to just play around with, “What about if we start in that place, go to that place?” Start, just start to play around with all of the different bits and pieces.
当你开始尝试时，“如果我们从那个地方开始，去那个地方怎么样？”开始，开始尝试所有不同的点滴。
And we began to flesh out some flow for the start of the game.
我们开始充实游戏开始时的一些流程。
And this idea you’d start in dusty American West, which meant we didn’t have to make too many trees.
这个想法可以从尘土飞扬的美国西部开始，这意味着我们不必种植太多的树。
And then go to Mexico, and then come back.
然后去墨西哥，然后回来。
And we had a sort of loose flow.
我们有一种松散的流动。
And I was really scared of writing any actual dialogue.
我真的很害怕写任何实际的对话。
And I didn’t have a clue how to go about it.
我不知道该怎么做。
And I kept, “It’ll come, it’ll come.” And then I kept because I could postpone it for ages because we were doing GTA IV.
我一直说：“该来的，该来的。”然后我就保留了，因为我可以推迟很长时间，因为我们正在做《GTA IV》。
And I kept worrying about it.
我一直为此担心。
And then my work was wrapped on GTA IV, but the game wasn’t out yet.
然后我的工作就完成了《GTA IV》，但游戏还没有发布。
1:18:13 And we’d done a bunch of the marketing stuff, and had a little window when I wasn’t doing much else.
我们做了很多营销工作，当我没有做太多其他事情时，我们有一个小窗口。
And I took a week with my then girlfriend, now wife, who was heavily pregnant with our first child, and we went up to a house upstate and sat there in the…
我和我当时的女朋友、现在的妻子待了一周，她正怀着我们的第一个孩子，我们去了北部的一所房子，坐在……
Well, she, she sat there either cooking for me or watching TV or reading.
那么她,她坐在那里要么给我做饭要么看电视或者看书。
And I just went and sat in the room all day, every day.
我就去房间里坐了一整天，每一天。
And just sat there and stared at the computer and tried to think about, “How can I do this so it doesn’t sound ridiculous?” How can you write in a cowboy idiom that feels both slightly contemporary, but also gives the game this sort of life and this weight that I want it to have, and think we can, think we can get away with?
然后坐在那里，盯着电脑，努力思考：“我该怎么做才能让这件事听起来不那么荒谬？”你怎样才能用一种牛仔风格来写，既感觉有点现代，又赋予游戏这种生命力和重量，我希望它有这样的感觉，并且认为我们可以，认为我们可以逃脱惩罚？
1:18:53 And after about three days, it just started to come.
大约三天后，它才开始出现。
And then suddenly I wrote about nine, 10 scenes in the next couple of days.
然后突然我在接下来的几天里写了大约九、十个场景。
And after that, I knew I had it.
在那之后，我知道我拥有了它。
And I don’t know if that was why there was so much about a character caring about his family, because I was just beginning the process of having a family.
我不知道这是否就是为什么角色如此关心他的家庭，因为我刚刚开始组建家庭的过程。
Oh.
哦。
So I don’t know if that…
所以我不知道是不是……
And so you-
所以你——
I don’t know to what extent that bled in there, but I think it bled in there to some extent.
我不知道那里流血到什么程度，但我认为在某种程度上它在那里流血了。
So that was part of creating the 360-degree characters.
这就是创建 360 度角色的一部分。
I think so.
我想是的。
Here’s this man that is capable, is involved in a lot of violence, who also cares about his family.
这个男人很有能力，参与了很多暴力，但也关心他的家庭。
He’s grown up, and he’s trying to step away from that and be a man, be a grown-up.
他已经长大了，他正在努力摆脱这种束缚，成为一个男人，成为一个成年人。
1:19:29 Can he get away from it?
他能摆脱它吗？
And then, when he can’t get away from it, what’s he willing to do to save his family?
那么，当他无法摆脱困境时，他愿意做什么来拯救他的家人呢？
And that was, I felt, starting to get some idea.
我觉得，那就是，我开始有了一些想法。
Feeling just…
感觉只是……
I mean, she, well, she hadn’t given birth yet, but I was beginning to grapple with the ideas of, “I’m going to become a parent.” So I hope some of that…
我的意思是，她，好吧，她还没有生孩子，但我开始思考“我要成为一名父母”的想法。所以我希望其中一些……
And obviously, then I probably didn’t write any more for six months, so later on we had a child.
显然，我可能有六个月没有再写东西了，所以后来我们有了孩子。
But certainly for that first bit, I think some of that began to bleed in there.
但当然，对于第一点，我认为其中一些开始在那里流血。
…you got the feeling that you can actually do it.
……你感觉自己真的可以做到。
1:19:57 It’s true.
这是真的。
It could have very easily been ridiculous and not believable, the dialogue between convoys.
车队之间的对话很容易变得荒谬和令人难以置信。
Yes.
是的。
And yes, I mean, there’s probably so much work went into making it feel real and believable.
是的，我的意思是，为了让它感觉真实可信，可能需要做很多工作。
1:20:09 And like a Shakespearean type of drama, but not the cheesy kind.
就像莎士比亚类型的戏剧，但不是俗气的那种。
Well, I just wanted it to feel when they spoke…
好吧，我只是想让他们说话时的感觉……
1:20:27 I mean, I love dialogue.
我的意思是，我喜欢对话。
I’m always, you know, I love the sound of words, but I just wanted it to feel like when they sounded, it didn’t sound cheesy, it didn’t sound ridiculous.
我总是，你知道，我喜欢文字的声音，但我只是希望当它们听起来时，它听起来不俗气，听起来不荒谬。
You wanted to hear them speak more.
你想听他们讲更多话。
It didn’t make you cringe awfully when they spoke.
当他们说话时，你并没有感到非常畏缩。
At some level, that was all the goal was.
在某种程度上，这就是目标的全部。
And then they felt like this guy was going to go on this life and death odyssey and you cared about him.
然后他们觉得这个家伙将继续这场生死之旅，而你关心他。
You had to care about his wife and child that he left behind, even though you didn’t know them.
你必须关心他留下的妻子和孩子，即使你不认识他们。
When did you know how you were going to end Red Dead Redemption one?
您什么时候知道要如何结束《荒野大镖客：救赎》？
I remember I had a meeting with Christian, the designer.
我记得我和设计师克里斯蒂安有过一次会面。
1:21:00 I can’t remember what year.
我不记得是哪一年了。
Probably some point late 2008, early 2009, and we were discussing the last bit, and I said, “I think he’s got to die.” And he leapt on the idea and went, “That’s…
大概是在 2008 年末、2009 年初的某个时候，我们正在讨论最后一点，我说，“我认为他必须死。”他立即接受了这个想法，说道：“那是……
Yeah, yes, yes.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
No, no, wait, no, it can’t work.
不，不，等等，不，这行不通。
Games can’t work like that.
游戏不能这样运作。
It can’t work if he’s dead.” You know, I began to think through, well, if we…
如果他死了，那就没办法了。”你知道，我开始思考，好吧，如果我们……
Just technically it doesn’t work because you have to be able to finish all the stuff up.
只是从技术上来说这是行不通的，因为你必须能够完成所有的事情。
And then I began to think through, “Actually, I think we can make it work if we do it this way.” And so he then really pushed for that idea, and it seemed to…
然后我开始思考，“实际上，我认为如果我们这样做的话，我们就能成功。”所以他确实推动了这个想法，而且似乎……
I was like, “Ah,” and I was still torn.
我当时想，“啊”，但我仍然很困惑。
1:21:37 I thought it was clever narratively but I was torn if it was gonna work technically as a piece of game design, but I think it did.
我认为这在叙事上很聪明，但如果它在技术上能够作为游戏设计的一部分发挥作用，我感到很困惑，但我认为它做到了。
Yeah, and spoiler alert, of course, how do we tell the story of that?
是的，当然，还有剧透警报，我们如何讲述这个故事呢？
1:21:47 Well, so he goes through a lot.
嗯，所以他经历了很多。
John does all the dirty work of hunting down his old gang, and he finally is able to go home and be with his family, be on the ranch.
约翰做了所有追捕他的老帮派的肮脏工作，他终于能够回家和家人在一起，在牧场上。
And then the government betrays him and sends troops to kill him.
然后政府背叛了他并派出军队杀死他。
And there is dialogue…
并且有对话……
I mean, that just…
我的意思是，那只是……
I think the two times I shed a tear in video game history for me is that dialogue.
我想我在电子游戏史上两次落泪的就是那次对话。
I think John talking to his wife, if I vaguely remember.
如果我依稀记得的话，我想约翰正在和他的妻子说话。
I think he said, “I love you.” But he said very little.
我想他说的是“我爱你”。但他说得很少。
He didn’t…
他没有……
He made it seem like he’s going to see her and his son shortly.
他让人觉得他很快就会见到她和他的儿子。
That dialogue was masterfully done, like a definition of less is more.
对话做得非常巧妙，就像“少即是多”的定义一样。
It was just so crisp, that and…
它是如此清脆，而且……
1:22:49 And, of course, the other one is again, from memory, Arthur riding his horse and the music is playing.
当然，根据记忆，另一个是亚瑟骑着马，音乐正在播放。
It’s very hard not to shed a tear during that.
在那期间很难不流泪。
Anyway, the dialogue of John talking to his wife at the end when he’s in a barn and is about to walk out- …
不管怎样，当约翰在谷仓里准备走出去时，最后约翰和他妻子的对话——……
to face certain death.
去面对必然的死亡。
Do you remember writing that?
你还记得这样写过吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
1:23:14 But again, the actor was so good, and we’ve already seen a bunch of his work by then.
但话又说回来，这位演员太棒了，那时我们已经看过他的很多作品了。
He had such a good…
他有这么好的...
He was so good at reading those lines that I knew he could give us…
他非常擅长阅读这些台词，我知道他可以给我们……
that you could feel at that point, like- I think those lines are best when they’re really short and punchy.
那一刻你会感觉到，就像——我认为这些台词在非常短而有力的时候是最好的。
So I knew- I knew he’d be able to make that line sound good.
所以我知道——我知道他能让这句话听起来很棒。
So you were imagining his voice.
所以你在想象他的声音。
1:23:35 You were just-
你刚刚——
And I think all of those actors on Red Dead Redemption one were so strong that they really brought that game to life.
我认为《荒野大镖客：救赎》中的所有演员都非常强大，他们真正将这款游戏带入了生活。
1:23:37 If they, them and Rod, the director, hadn’t done such a good job it would have sounded cheesy as hell.
如果他们，他们和导演罗德没有做得这么好，那听起来就会很俗气。
Yeah, you’ve said that the ending of RDR1 is one of the best things you’ve been a part of creating.
是的，你说过 RDR1 的结局是你参与创作的最好的事情之一。
1:23:50 Why?
为什么？
Why is that ending so powerful to you?
为什么这个结局对你来说如此强烈？
What does it represent?
它代表什么？
I think because for the story to work…
我想是因为为了让这个故事发挥作用……
1:24:07 I mean, just from a technical challenge.
我的意思是，只是来自技术挑战。
For the story to work, he had to die.
为了让故事成功，他必须死。
But for a game to work, it felt like a challenge to make him die.
但对于一款游戏来说，让他死就像是一个挑战。
It was probably the fourth, fifth, or sixth open-world game I’d worked on and I’d, you know, spent all these years before that working out how these stories worked.
这可能是我制作的第四、第五或第六款开放世界游戏，你知道，在此之前我花了很多年的时间来研究这些故事是如何运作的。
How to make them work technically, how to make them feel right, how they interacted with the open form gameplay as best I could.
如何让它们在技术上发挥作用，如何让它们感觉良好，如何尽我所能与开放式游戏玩法进行互动。
And suddenly we’re going to break one of our golden rules, which was at the end of the game you’re freeing the character to go and wrap up all the side stories, to play forever.
突然间，我们将打破我们的黄金规则之一，那就是在游戏结束时，你要释放角色，让他去完成所有的支线故事，永远玩下去。
1:24:49 You’re not going to be able to do that in this game because the guy’s going to be dead and we’re going to have to have you play as a different character.
在这款游戏中你将无法做到这一点，因为那个人会死，我们将不得不让你扮演不同的角色。
And the narrative, if we’ve done a good job, is going to be compelling enough where you’re not going to care about that.
如果我们做得很好，叙述就会足够引人注目，而你不会关心这一点。
Or you’re going to be upset that he’s dead, but you can actually have this emotional moment.
或者你会因为他的死而感到难过，但你实际上可以拥有这个激动人心的时刻。
So I think it was a big risk from a technical perspective for us to do that, and then it worked.
所以我认为从技术角度来看我们这样做是一个很大的风险，然后它就奏效了。
So I think that was something that was very full of fear and it worked out okay.
所以我认为那是充满恐惧的事情，但结果还不错。
What-
什么-
And I think people were really upset and angry at us for doing it because they didn’t think it was going to happen, but I think they also had that kind of experience you’re describing, which is that kind of creative, transcendent moment with characters in a piece of fiction, which is what we’ve always aspired to giving people.
我认为人们对我们这样做感到非常沮丧和愤怒，因为他们认为这不会发生，但我认为他们也有你所描述的那种经历，那就是小说中的人物的那种创造性的、超然的时刻，这就是我们一直渴望给人们的。
I mean, it’s incredible because I don’t think…
我的意思是，这太不可思议了，因为我不认为……
1:25:32 I don’t remember a single video game that has done that before.
我不记得以前有哪个视频游戏做到过这一点。
Well, I would like to have, at the end of GTA IV, killed Niko, but you couldn’t do it.
好吧，我想在 GTA IV 的结尾杀死 Niko，但你做不到。
1:25:37 You know, the game doesn’t work out like that.
你知道，游戏并不是这样进行的。
So it was this thing where we hadn’t done it.
所以这件事我们还没有做。
Thought about doing it, hadn’t done it and then going, “Let’s do it.
想过要做，还没做，然后就说：“我们去做吧。”
Let’s take the risk and do it.
让我们冒险去做吧。
We can’t do it.
我们做不到。
Let’s try.” And it worked.
我们试试吧。”它奏效了。
Yeah, what about the decision with the son?
是啊，那和儿子的决定呢？
1:25:53 You know, John gives so much effort to make sure that Jack doesn’t end up in a life of violence…
你知道，约翰付出了很多努力来确保杰克不会陷入暴力的生活......
And then it’s very Godfather-like.
然后它非常像教父。
It’s- …
这是——……
he’s dragged back into it through revenge.
他因复仇而被拖回了困境。
That was also, the game still had to work as a game.
也就是说，游戏仍然必须作为游戏来运行。
1:26:11 Whether that was the right ending, 100% the best ending from a pure storytelling perspective, I don’t know.
我不知道这是否是正确的结局，从纯粹讲故事的角度来看是否是100%最好的结局。
But I know that we had to make the game work.
但我知道我们必须让游戏发挥作用。
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
So it was…
所以这是……
1:26:26 I think it kind of worked in that way where Jack can’t escape, but I always also wanted a version of it where Jack did escape, but that wasn’t…
我认为它以杰克无法逃脱的方式起作用，但我一直也想要一个杰克确实逃脱的版本，但那不是……
You know.
你知道。
Both were interesting to me.
两者对我来说都很有趣。
Can you just dig in a little deeper?
你能再深入一点吗？
1:26:37 Like, what do you mean about for the game to work?
比如，你所说的游戏运行是什么意思？
It’s such a direct…
就这么直接……
It’s like Kubrick talking about for this movie to work, it has to have…
就像库布里克所说，要让这部电影成功，它必须……
Because from my perspective, I just think about the story.
因为从我的角度来看，我只是思考这个故事。
What’s the technical aspect for the game to work?
游戏运行需要哪些技术方面的内容？
It’s just the mechanical experience is you have an avatar you control and you, you…
这只是机械体验，你有一个你控制的化身，而你，你……
1:26:50 You know, the games don’t really end and you have to be able to wander around the world and do stuff.
你知道，游戏并没有真正结束，你必须能够环游世界并做一些事情。
So at the end of the game, you have to be able to wander around with your fairly limited set of features, which is you can, you know, run up to someone and punch them or run up to someone and shoot them or run up to someone and rob them, or run up to someone and talk to them.
因此，在游戏结束时，你必须能够使用相当有限的功能四处游荡，也就是说，你可以跑向某人并殴打他们，或者跑向某人并射击他们，或者跑向某人并抢劫他们，或者跑向某人并与他们交谈。
Or jump on a horse or do all this other stuff.
或者跳上马或者做所有其他的事情。
In order for the game still to be fun and people to get this full 360-degree experience with it, they had to, you know, 100% the game as opposed to just finishing the story, you have to have an avatar to do that stuff with.
为了让游戏仍然有趣并且人们能够获得完整的 360 度体验，他们必须 100% 完成游戏，而不是仅仅完成故事，你必须有一个化身来完成这些事情。
1:27:33 So that was that was the sort of challenge of, of Jack’s character/wrapping up the story as Jack.
这就是杰克的角色/以杰克的身份总结故事的挑战。
Oh, there’s real power for the avatar to end, the finiteness.
哦，有真正的力量可以让化身终结，那就是有限性。
Yeah.
是的。
1:27:46 Both the Red Deads, you obviously change avatars- …which we did again.
两个 Red Dead 战士，你们显然都改变了化身——……我们又这么做了。
I think there’s something interesting about that moment when you change from one character to another because they are you and they’re not you, you know, and then just suddenly you’re someone else.
我认为当你从一个角色变成另一个角色的那一刻，有一些有趣的事情，因为他们是你，他们不是你，你知道，然后突然你就变成了另一个人。
I mean, I was really shaken by that experience, but it’s a beautiful experience.
我的意思是，我对那次经历感到非常震惊，但这是一次美好的经历。
1:27:59 It’s like an unforgettable experience.
这就像一次难忘的经历。
What else can video games possibly reach for?
电子游戏还能达到什么目的？
You know, to create that experience, that’s what great films do, that’s what great books do.
你知道，为了创造这种体验，这就是伟大的电影所做的，这就是伟大的书籍所做的。
It’s that.
就是这样。
1:28:17 I mean, it’s that and the world building in games.
我的意思是，这就是游戏中构建的世界。
I think the experience of being in this fake place and then taking on these narrative adventures, when that combines, you’ve got the amazing experience.
我认为在这个虚假的地方的经历，然后进行这些叙事冒险，当这两者结合起来时，你就会得到惊人的体验。
So who do you think is the best character you’ve ever created in RDR?
那么你认为谁是你在 RDR 中创造过的最好的角色？
1:28:28 To me, I think definitively Arthur from Red Dead Redemption 2 is the best character ever created in video games.
对我来说，我认为 Red Dead Redemption 2 中的亚瑟绝对是电子游戏中创造的最佳角色。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I think there’s not even close.
我认为还没有接近。
1:28:43 John would be second, which is hilarious to say.
约翰将排名第二，这说起来很有趣。
But, like, those are…
但是，就像，那些是……
John would be a close second, but Arthur is definitively…
约翰会紧随其后，但亚瑟绝对是……
And you’ve talked about it in that interview, you said that a lot of video games work on the same premise, that you start as a weak person and end up as a strong superhero.
你在那次采访中谈到了这一点，你说很多电子游戏的工作原理都是相同的，即你从一个弱者开始，最终成为一个强大的超级英雄。
But what if you start as a tough guy, someone who already is very strong, someone that’s emotionally confident of his place in the world?
但是，如果你一开始是一个硬汉，一个已经非常坚强的人，一个在情感上对自己在世界上的地位充满信心的人，该怎么办？
Arthur’s journey is not about becoming a superhero because he’s almost one at the start, but it’s about an intellectual rollercoaster when his worldview gets taken apart.
亚瑟的旅程并不是要成为一名超级英雄，因为他一开始就几乎是超级英雄了，而是当他的世界观被瓦解时，他的智力就像过山车一样。
So it’s very different than the normal journey of a character.
所以这与角色的正常旅程非常不同。
Yeah, in a game.
是的，在一场比赛中。
In a game
在一场比赛中
…in order to reverse it.
……为了扭转局面。
1:29:33 So there were a couple other themes that matched that.
所以还有其他几个与之相匹配的主题。
So they’re guys from the Wild West, but they’re being pushed ever further east.
所以他们是来自狂野西部的人，但他们被推向更远的东方。
So it’s almost like an anti-Western.
所以这几乎就像是反西方的。
An Eastern.
一个东方人。
You’re traveling east.
你正在向东旅行。
You’re traveling into civilization.
你正在进入文明世界。
And I don’t think I would’ve been grappling with those ideas earlier in my career, because it was so, you know, this idea of getting a different kind of strength and different kind of weakness was interesting.
我认为在我职业生涯的早期我不会一直在努力解决这些想法，因为你知道，这种获得不同类型的优势和不同类型的弱点的想法很有趣。
What about the component of mortality, of a character facing his own mortality over a prolonged period?
一个角色长期面对自己的死亡，死亡的组成部分又如何呢？
1:30:01 Sort of just the prospect of real fear of death, realization of death…
有点像对死亡的真正恐惧、对死亡的认识……
Yeah.
是的。
1:30:16 I thought that was really…
我以为那真的是……
…as part of the story.
……作为故事的一部分。
…really a fun thing to play with.
……玩起来确实很有趣。
1:30:17 John dies in Red Dead 1.
约翰在 Red Dead 1 中去世。
I wanted to top that with Red Dead 2, or do that in a different way.
我想用 Red Dead 2 来超越这一点，或者以不同的方式做到这一点。
And so the idea that it’s…
所以这个想法是……
But John’s death is fairly sudden, and so if he’s got this long, drawn-out death, and then I’d always been obsessed by TB.
但约翰的死相当突然，所以如果他死得这么漫长，那么我就会一直对结核病着迷。
As diseases go, it’s a great literary device.
随着疾病的发展，它是一种很棒的文学手段。
1:30:39 You know, because it is this long, drawn-out, slow death, but in which you are also getting weaker.
你知道，因为这是一种漫长、拖沓、缓慢的死亡，但你也在其中变得越来越虚弱。
And my grandfather actually had TB before they invented antibiotics and was sent to a sanatorium just after he’d had his child, my father, and survived, but only three of them out of like 35 survived.
事实上，我的祖父在发明抗生素之前就患有结核病，在生下他的孩子（我的父亲）并幸存后不久就被送往疗养院，但大约 35 个人中只有 3 人幸存。
So I was always captivated by TB as an illness.
所以我一直对结核病这种疾病着迷。
It felt like it was an interesting thing to play around with as an idea, this guy getting weaker who felt like he was immortal and essentially was immortal.
作为一个想法，感觉这是一件有趣的事情，这个家伙变得越来越弱，感觉自己是不朽的，本质上是不朽的。
He was the protagonist in a video game, he could not die, and suddenly he is becoming mortal.
他是电子游戏的主角，他不能死，突然间他变成了凡人。
You know, but that helps him see stuff.
你知道，但这可以帮助他看到东西。
I thought that was a different way of doing a lead character in a game.
我认为这是在游戏中扮演主角的不同方式。
Yeah.
是的。
1:31:24 Do you think it’s the greatest character you’ve ever created?
你认为这是你创造过的最伟大的角色吗？
I think he’s the best lead character.
我认为他是最好的主角。
1:31:28 You know, the lead characters are different from the side characters, and I think he’s the most rounded and works the best.
要知道，主角和配角是不一样的，我觉得他是最圆润、演技最好的。
Him and Nico are the two I like, you know.
你知道，他和尼科是我喜欢的两个人。
They were the two most ambitious.
他们是最有野心的两个人。
So for me, it’s always a toss-up, you know?
所以对我来说，这总是一个难以抉择的事情，你知道吗？
But then I loved all the stuff the art team did.
但后来我喜欢艺术团队所做的所有事情。
They did such an amazing job.
他们做得非常出色。
It was their idea with the journal and that kind of…
这是他们对日记的想法，以及那种……
…The way that all the features worked into Arthur’s character, I thought that was really…
……所有的特征都融入了亚瑟的角色，我认为这真的是……
He was really rounded, he worked in lots of different ways really well.
他真的很全面，他在很多不同的方面都做得很好。
I loved his flawed relationship with his old girlfriend, things like that.
我喜欢他和他的前女友之间有缺陷的关系，诸如此类。
All the side…
所有的侧面…
you know, the bits that turned up around him.
你知道，发生在他周围的那些事情。
So you also like the side characters.
所以你也喜欢配角。
1:32:15 You like the flavor…
你喜欢这个味道…
Yeah, of course
是的，当然
…of the full cast.
……全体演员。
1:32:19 What are some of the favorites you’ve created?
您最喜欢的作品有哪些？
I’m sure the one you’re currently working on…
我确定你目前正在做的那个......
…Nigel Dave, that’s a…
……奈杰尔·戴夫，那是……
You called him a side character.
你称他为配角。
Well, he’s not a protagonist.
好吧，他不是主角。
1:32:28 He’s like a go- He’s a god, not a character.
他就像一个人——他是神，而不是人物。
Sure.
当然。
So he’s not…
所以他不是……
1:32:32 Him, I’m enjoying.
他，我很享受。
I love Dutch.
我喜欢荷兰语。
You know, it was partly because we wrote a few lines for him for the first game, and the actor did such an amazing job that when he spoke, it just came to me all of their backstory, which I’d been playing around with by that point anyway, a little bit in my head.
你知道，部分原因是我们在第一款游戏中为他写了几句台词，而这位演员的表现非常出色，当他说话时，我脑海中浮现出他们所有的背景故事，无论如何，我当时一直在思考这些故事，在我的脑海里有一点点。
But I knew he was this bigger gangster from then, I sort of saw exactly who he was.
但从那时起我就知道他是一个更大的黑帮，我有点清楚他是谁。
And so that felt like…
所以感觉就像……
He felt like a living character to me.
对我来说，他就像一个活生生的人物。
And we should say that Dutch is kind of like maybe a little bit of a godlike figure…
我们应该说，荷兰人有点像神一样的人物……
Yeah
是啊
…in both of the Red Dead Redemption games.
...在两款 Red Dead Redemption 游戏中。
1:33:07 He’s the leader of the gang.
他是该团伙的头目。
And there’s a father-son relationship with Dutch, with Arthur, with John.
与达奇、与亚瑟、与约翰都是父子关系。
I mean, there’s a family feeling to the gang.
我的意思是，这个团伙有一种家庭的感觉。
They explore all of those dynamics, and then the feeling of betrayal and Arthur facing tuberculosis.
他们探索了所有这些动态，然后是背叛的感觉和亚瑟面对肺结核的感觉。
You’re going against the family, going against the father…
你违背了家庭，违背了父亲……
…Because he is transforming his sense of the world, of morality, of all those kinds of things.
……因为他正在改变他对世界、道德以及所有这些事物的看法。
So all the kind of very Shakespearean drama is right there.
所以所有类型的莎士比亚戏剧都在那里。
And Dutch is a prominent, godlike figure through all of that.
在这一切中，达奇是一位杰出的、神一般的人物。
Also flawed himself, also a man of good and evil in that framework that they’re operating under.
他自己也有缺陷，在他们所运作的框架中也是一个善恶之人。
And he, he’s just drowning in his ego at the end.
而他，最终只是沉浸在自我之中。
1:33:52 You know, his ego gets the better of him.
你知道，他的自负战胜了他。
I think he’s…
我认为他是……
But there was something flawed but beautiful in his idealism when he was younger, and that’s mostly off camera.
但他年轻时的理想主义有一些缺陷，但却很美丽，而这大多是在镜头之外的。
But as an individual, I’ve always been very susceptible to charming people.
但作为个人，我一直很容易受到有魅力的人的影响。
And he’s charming.
他很迷人。
So I can see how people get captivated by charming people.
所以我可以看到人们是如何被有魅力的人迷住的。
And the idea here was a very charming person, and the road’s run out for him.
这里的想法是一个非常有魅力的人，而他的路已经走完了。
I personally am afraid of how much I love human beings and how susceptible I am to charm and charisma.
我个人害怕我对人类的热爱，以及我对魅力和魅力的敏感度。
1:34:23 Because it can cloud your judgment about human nature.
因为它会影响你对人性的判断。
Completely.
完全地。
1:34:36 And that’s what happened with him.
这就是他身上发生的事情。
And it ended up clouding his judgment about himself.
这最终影响了他对自己的判断。
He kind of fell for his own rubbish.
他有点陷入了自己的垃圾之中。
Yeah.
是的。
1:34:45 But also, it clouded Arthur’s judgment.
但同时，它也影响了亚瑟的判断。
Oh, completely.
哦，完全可以。
1:34:49 Arthur was completely, you know, platonically in love with him.
你知道，亚瑟完全柏拉图式地爱着他。
He was worshiping him.
他在崇拜他。
He’d given up his power to him.
他已经把权力交给了他。
And then I think for Arthur, the journey is retaking that power in the moment of dying.
然后我认为对于亚瑟来说，这段旅程就是在死亡的那一刻重新获得力量。
You know, and that’s what the whole…
你知道，这就是整个……
that’s why I thought that was really interesting.
这就是为什么我认为这真的很有趣。
Yeah.
是的。
1:35:05 It’s truly tragic for Arthur to be losing his identity, lifelong identity, and sense of belonging, and losing his life at the same time.
对于亚瑟来说，失去自己的身份、终生的身份和归属感，同时也失去了自己的生命，这确实是一场悲剧。
In facing mortality, he is realizing that he’s not…
在面对死亡时，他意识到他不是……
all of it has been a lie.
这一切都是谎言。
But he gets to do some…
但他要做一些……
1:35:26 Well, it depends on what choices you make.
嗯，这取决于你做出什么选择。
But he gets to do some good.
但他还是要做点好事。
And so he, you know, he gets his moment of redemption.
所以他，你知道，他得到了救赎的时刻。
Just a little bit.
只是一点点。
1:35:34 But realizing…
但意识到……
Your whole life you’ve been living not a good life.
你这辈子都过着不好的生活。
You’ve been not a good man.
你本来就不是什么好人。
Isn’t that what we’re all afraid of?
这不是我们都害怕的吗？
I guess it’s never too late to change your ways.
我想改变你的方式永远不会太晚。
Hope not.
希望不会。
1:35:47 I mean, that’s…
我的意思是，那是……
So the biggest, most important question, primary, central to the reason we’re talking today, the number one question from the internet.
因此，最大、最重要的问题是我们今天讨论的首要、核心问题，也是来自互联网的第一个问题。
It is so ridiculous, but I must ask.
这真是太荒谬了，但我必须问。
Have you seen Gavin?
你见过加文吗？
Who is Gavin?
加文是谁？
So for more context, there’s a guy named Nigel in Red Dead Redemption 2 who’s frantically searching for a mystery man named Gavin throughout the game.
为了了解更多背景信息，《荒野大镖客：救赎 2》中有一个名叫奈杰尔 (Nigel) 的人，他在整个游戏中疯狂地寻找一个名叫加文 (Gavin) 的神秘人。
This has become one of the biggest mysteries amongst the interwebs, the RDR fan base.
这已成为互联网上最大的谜团之一，即 RDR 粉丝群。
So the theories include, theory one is it’s a split personality disorder.
因此，这些理论包括，理论一是这是一种人格分裂症。
Nigel himself is Gavin.
奈杰尔本人就是加文。
So the evidence is the letter for this theory that has some evidence that may be due to trauma, this split personality disorder was created, this Gavin was created inside Nigel’s mind.
所以证据就是这个理论的信函，其中有一些证据可能是由于创伤造成的，这种人格分裂是被创造出来的，这个加文是在奈杰尔的脑海里被创造出来的。
1:36:41 Theory two is Gavin is dead and Nigel’s simply in denial.
理论二是加文已经死了，而奈杰尔只是否认。
Theory three is that it’s just a troll and Rockstar intentionally created an unsolvable mystery to drive players crazy.
理论三是，这只是一个巨魔，Rockstar 故意制造了一个无法解开的谜团来让玩家发疯。
I also heard theory four is Gavin is the Strange Man.
我还听说理论四是加文是奇怪的人。
So there’s this fascinating character, the Strange Man, this supernatural character that has a presence in RDR1 and a little bit in RDR2 also.
所以就有了这个迷人的角色，奇怪的人，这个超自然的角色在《RDR1》中出现过，在《RDR2》中也有一些出现。
But yeah.
但是是的。
So which theory is closest to the truth?
那么哪种理论最接近事实呢？
Not three or four.
不是三四个。
1:37:13 Somewhere in my mind, somewhere between one and two.
在我脑海中的某个地方，介于一和二之间。
Yeah.
是的。
And I just loved the way he shouted, “Gavin!” It just amused me.
我就是喜欢他大喊“加文！”的方式。这只是让我觉得好笑。
So at some level, it probably is trolling in that we didn’t want it to be a totally clear mystery.
所以在某种程度上，这可能是因为我们不希望它成为一个完全清晰的谜团。
We wanted it to have a little bit of adventure to it.
我们希望它有一点冒险精神。
But it was meant to be…
但这本来是……
without ever fully being explained, that Gavin’s not there anymore.
没有得到充分的解释，加文已经不在那里了。
Gavin’s either gone home, Gavin’s left him, Gavin’s…
加文要么回家了，要么加文离开了他，加文的……
and we were going to keep exploring that idea.
我们将继续探索这个想法。
That he was going to reappear in some way or other.
他将以某种方式重新出现。
Did you have any idea how much imagination, excitement, and curiosity that little interaction would inspire in people?
您是否知道这种小小的互动会激发人们多少想象力、兴奋和好奇心？
Yes and no.
是和不是。
1:37:59 I mean, you could never know what people are going to find amusing in these big games, and a lot of it comes down to acting as well.
我的意思是，你永远不知道人们会在这些大型游戏中发现什么有趣，而其中很多也取决于表演。
The guy was just funny when he said, “Gavin.” It was just funny.
那家伙说“加文”时很有趣。这很有趣。
But there was a pedestrian in Red Dead Redemption 1 that everyone was obsessed by, and I really wasn’t expecting that.
但《荒野大镖客：救赎 1》中有一个让所有人着迷的行人，我真的没想到。
So we try and put a few characters in.
所以我们尝试放入一些字符。
I mean, Gavin was supposed to be amusing.
我的意思是，加文应该很有趣。
I thought he was amusing.
我觉得他很有趣。
But you never know what people are going to get obsessed by.
但你永远不知道人们会痴迷什么。
There are other characters I think are funny and people don’t even notice them, or they see them in a completely different way.
还有其他一些我认为很有趣的角色，人们甚至没有注意到他们，或者他们以完全不同的方式看待他们。
Did you have a part in writing the letter?
你参与了这封信的撰写吗？
Yeah.
是的。
1:38:32 I can’t remember if I wrote it or…
我不记得是我写的还是……
either I wrote it or Mike wrote it, or we both wrote it.
要么是我写的，要么是迈克写的，或者我们都写的。
I really can’t remember, to be honest with you.
老实说，我真的不记得了。
But yeah, I certainly would have edited it, and Mike might have written it or I might have written it.
但是，是的，我当然会编辑它，迈克可能会写它，或者我可能会写它。
I really can’t remember.
我实在记不清了。
It’s so fascinating because that little piece of writing…
这太令人着迷了，因为那篇小文章……
1:38:43 of course you have thousands of pages…
当然你有数千页......
Yeah.
是的。
1:38:48 T-
T-
…but that little piece of writing gets analyzed.
……但是那篇小文章得到了分析。
Oh, but we certainly talked about it in depth, and if Mike was here, I’d ask him.
哦，但我们确实深入地讨论过，如果迈克在这里，我会问他。
1:38:51 He might remember.
他可能还记得。
I can’t really…
我真的不能……
and we do so much of those things…
我们做了很多这样的事情……
…And I loved the use of letters in Red Dead to tell all these weird backstories.
……我喜欢在 Red Dead 中使用字母来讲述所有这些奇怪的背景故事。
And some became very clear and some were still a little kind of opaque.
有些变得非常清晰，有些仍然有点不透明。
But I think the general vibe was there was no Gavin.
但我认为普遍的氛围是没有加文。
Either there was no Gavin or he’d long since left.
要么没有加文，要么他早就离开了。
So it’s kind of a split personality, you know, and then we were going to, over subsequent games, provide more information.
所以这是一种人格分裂，你知道，然后我们将在随后的游戏中提供更多信息。
So in some sense, you yourself don’t quite know.
所以从某种意义上说，你自己也不太清楚。
1:39:20 You kind of have an idea, so…
你有一个想法，所以……
like, which way do you lean more, theory one or two?
比如，你更倾向于哪种方式，理论一还是理论二？
Is he dead and Nigel’s in denial, or is there real communication going on inside his head?
是他死了而奈杰尔否认了，还是他脑子里正在进行真正的交流？
No, Gavin existed.
不，加文存在。
1:39:36 So it wasn’t that he was a split personality, and the only thing we hadn’t really decided was in a future game were we going to reveal that Gavin was dead, or was Gavin going to turn up having long since abandoned this maniac?
所以这并不是说他是人格分裂，我们唯一没有真正决定的是在未来的游戏中我们是否会透露加文已经死了，或者加文是否会在早已抛弃这个疯子的情况下出现？
You know, that was what we were still playing around with.
你知道，这就是我们仍在玩弄的东西。
I think the idea was that he was never going to meet…
我认为这个想法是他永远不会见面......
He was never going to meet Gavin in this game.
他永远不会在这场比赛中遇到加文。
I mean, it’s just fascinating because you have to think about all of that.
我的意思是，这很有趣，因为你必须考虑所有这些。
1:39:58 You have to write all of that.
你必须写下所有这些。
You have to have those discussions.
你必须进行这些讨论。
You have to have those debates.
你必须进行这些辩论。
And it has to feel fresh.
而且它必须感觉新鲜。
1:40:06 That was…
那是……
Like, what we’ve done before.
就像我们以前做过的那样。
Constantly looking as you do…
不断地看着你做的事……
You know, I think I’ve done somewhere between 15 and 20 of these games.
你知道，我想我已经完成了 15 到 20 款这样的游戏。
You’ve got to do stuff that’s new.
你必须做一些新的事情。
It can’t repeat itself too much.
它不能重复太多。
I mean, we also live in the age of the internet.
我的意思是，我们也生活在互联网时代。
1:40:18 You realize there are like millions of people worrying about where and who Gavin is.
你意识到有数百万人担心加文在哪里以及是谁。
Thank God.
感谢上帝。
It’s like-
就像-
It’s great, yeah.
太棒了，是的。
It’s fascinating that they’re having…
令人着迷的是，他们正在……
1:40:32 Think about people reading James Joyce or something and thinking about, like, breaking apart Ulysses and thinking about, like, arguing about different interpretations of it.
想象一下人们在阅读詹姆斯·乔伊斯（James Joyce）或其他作品时会想到，比如，分解《尤利西斯》，并思考，比如，争论对它的不同解释。
To me, that in itself is also beautiful.
对我来说，这本身也是美丽的。
Yeah.
是的。
1:40:47 We want the side mysteries to be solvable up to a point, but you still want these discussions.
我们希望侧面的谜团在一定程度上能够得到解决，但你仍然希望进行这些讨论。
Yeah, the mystery.
是啊，神秘。
You know, and you want it as long as it feels tonally appropriate for this whole big, sort of, shaggy dog story experience you’re making.
你知道，只要它的基调适合你正在制作的整个大型、毛茸茸的狗故事体验，你就想要它。
1:40:53 Which Gavin was just about, and he was so weird, and he just was intrinsically…
加文就是这样的，他太奇怪了，而且他本质上就是……
there was just something funny about an English person screaming, “Gavin.” I don’t know why.
一个英国人尖叫着“加文”，这很有趣。我不知道为什么。
Yeah.
是的。
1:41:10 Some of that humor, I mean, there’s certain humor in Red Dead Redemption, but there’s a lot of it in Grand Theft Auto…
我的意思是，《荒野大镖客：救赎》中有一些幽默，但《侠盗猎车手》中有很多这样的幽默……
…And what…
……还有什么……
It’s hard to put into words why that’s funny, why it becomes a meme, why it becomes viral, ’cause it’s just funny.
很难用语言来形容为什么这很有趣，为什么它成为一个模因，为什么它会像病毒一样传播，因为它很有趣。
It’s…
这是……
Yeah, I know why I think it’s funny, but what you can’t…
是的，我知道为什么我觉得这很有趣，但你不能……
1:41:26 What I’m not good at doing at least, is going, “This thing will become really popular online, and this other thing won’t.” You can create a bunch of, you know, fifty different side things that people might get captivated by, and you just do not know what they’re going to respond to.
至少我不擅长做的是，“这个东西会在网上变得非常流行，而另一个东西不会。”你知道，你可以创造一堆人们可能会着迷的五十种不同的侧面事物，但你只是不知道他们会做出什么反应。
How do you know when something’s funny?
你怎么知道什么时候有什么有趣的事情？
1:41:44 Is it you just feel it?
难道只是你感觉到的吗？
You just…
你只是……
I know what I think is funny.
我知道我认为什么是有趣的。
1:41:47 It’s, you know, it makes…
你知道，它使……
You just Google it or you just…
你只需谷歌它或者你只是......
…like, just because it’s ridiculous as well.
……就像，只是因为这也很荒谬。
1:41:50 That was just…
那只是……
There’s nothing funny about a dude shouting, “Gavin,” a lot.
一个家伙经常喊“加文”，这没什么好笑的。
He just said it in a fu…
他只是用一种语气说的……
I just thought it might be funny.
我只是觉得这可能很有趣。
It was great, and he just said it in such a funny way.
太棒了，他只是用一种有趣的方式说出来的。
…
……
And then it just became funny.
然后事情就变得有趣了。
Like, you…
就像，你……
We often have those side characters and they’re not that funny, and I think they’re gonna be hysterical, and then you put them in the game, and they’re awf- they’re fine, but they’re not amazing.
我们经常有那些配角，他们并不那么有趣，我认为他们会歇斯底里，然后你把他们放到游戏中，他们就很糟糕——他们很好，但并不令人惊奇。
That guy just brought that stuff to life.
那家伙刚刚把那些东西变成了现实。
Yeah.
是的。
1:42:12 And his backstory too.
还有他的背景故事。
I mean, Londoner and not…
我的意思是，伦敦人而不是……
Yeah, that…
是的，那个……
Yeah, I think that was what…
是的，我想这就是……
1:42:16 You know, just that it…
你知道，只是它……
There’s something sometimes funny, an English person saying the name Gavin is quite funny.
有时有一些有趣的事情，一个英国人说加文这个名字很有趣。
I don’t know why.
我不知道为什么。
So about the Strange Man, AKA the Man in Black.
那么关于奇怪的人，又名黑衣人。
1:42:24 Is there some element with Michael and the therapist in Grand Theft Auto V?
《侠盗猎车手 V》中是否存在迈克尔和治疗师的某些元素？
Like, who is the Strange Man?
比如，那个奇怪的人是谁？
Well, the Strange Man was, again, someone we came up with quickly.
好吧，这个奇怪的人又是我们很快想到的人。
1:42:32 We made Red Dead 1, or rather, were making Red Dead 1, and we’d made this—we felt quite compelling story and quite interesting open world.
我们制作了《荒野大镖客 1》，或者更确切地说，正在制作《荒野大镖客 1》，而且我们制作了这款游戏——我们觉得故事非常引人入胜，开放世界也非常有趣。
But we’d already made a bunch of Grand Theft Autos, obviously, but unfortunately, we’d taken out the machine guns because it was a cowboy game, apart from the big fixed position ones.
但显然，我们已经制作了一堆侠盗猎车手，但不幸的是，我们去掉了机枪，因为这是一款牛仔游戏，除了大型固定位置游戏之外。
And we’d taken out the cars, and we’d taken out the city and large numbers of pedestrians.
我们消灭了汽车，消灭了城市和大量行人。
So we essentially had a game about a dude riding a horse- around the desert, and it was quite boring.
所以我们基本上做了一个关于一个人在沙漠中骑马的游戏，这很无聊。
1:43:10 And so we then started filling it with content, having to improvise.
所以我们开始用内容填充它，必须即兴创作。
And we filled it with these things we call random events that would be these sort of mocap moments that you could interact with.
我们用一些我们称之为随机事件的东西填充它，这些东西就是你可以与之互动的动作捕捉时刻。
And they were—the designers did an amazing job with those.
设计师们在这些方面做得非常出色。
They were really fun, but there were not enough of them.
他们真的很有趣，但还不够。
And then we felt we needed more story because the story was perhaps a little short.
然后我们觉得我们需要更多的故事，因为故事可能有点短。
So we, quite late in development, started putting in almost like these RPG-type content where you go and meet someone.
因此，我们在开发的后期，开始加入类似 RPG 类型的内容，让你去见某人。
And the way we thought of them was they were like short stories.
我们认为它们就像短篇小说。
So you go and meet someone; they’d set you a small problem, like go and collect me 15 bunches of flowers.
所以你去见某人；他们会给你一个小问题，比如去给我收集 15 束花。
And when you came back, it would resolve your story.
当你回来时，你的故事就会解决。
1:43:49 And so then, you know, one would go, “Go get them for my bride,” and you come back and the bride’s dead.
所以，你知道，有人会说，“去给我的新娘拿来”，然后你回来，新娘就死了。
We tried to make them like these short stories with a sting in the tail.
我们试图让它们像这些尾巴上有刺的短篇小说一样。
And he came out—as I was trying to come up with ideas for those—as just this weird character.
当我试图为这些想法想出一些想法时，他就出来了，就是这个奇怪的角色。
And then we built him a bit into the story, where he would unlock as you worked your way through and be a commentary on what you were doing.
然后我们将他融入到故事中，当你完成任务时他会解锁并对你正在做的事情进行评论。
So he was meant to be a kind of manifestation of your shadow, your karma, the devil—somewhere, you know, just saw the world.
所以他注定是你的影子、你的业力、魔鬼的一种体现——你知道，在某个地方，他刚刚看到了这个世界。
And then we built out his backstory over time and decided, you know.
然后我们随着时间的推移构建了他的背景故事并决定，你知道。
And so in Red Dead 2, you could interact with him again, or not really interact with him.
所以在 Red Dead 2 中，你可以再次与他互动，也可以不真正与他互动。
1:44:34 But he was there and he was meant to be, you know, something I suppose any creative is scared of, an artist who’s kind of sold his soul to the devil.
但他就在那里，你知道，他注定是一个我想任何创意者都会害怕的人，一个将灵魂出卖给魔鬼的艺术家。
And that slowly revealed itself.
这一点慢慢地显现出来。
There is a connection between the main character and…
主角和主角之间有某种联系……
1:44:44 Is it like a Jungian shadow type of situation?
这是否像荣格影子类型的情况？
Well, it’s sort of, because he knows what you’re up to.
嗯，是这样，因为他知道你在做什么。
1:44:51 The connection is, and, and, and what’s never really made clear is, does he know this about everybody?
其中的联系是，并且，并且，从来没有真正弄清楚的是，他是否了解每个人的这一点？
Like, is he following you, or is he able, because of the pact he’s made with, with, with, with, with evil forces, able to do this for everybody?
比如，他是在追随你，还是因为他与邪恶势力签订的协议，他能够为每个人做到这一点？
And I don’t think we necessarily ever clarify that.
我认为我们不一定会澄清这一点。
He’s certainly able to do it for you.
他当然能够为你做到这一点。
I mean, there’s, sort of narrative-wise, there’s techniques to reveal a kinda self-reflection analysis of the main character’s thoughts.
我的意思是，从叙事角度来说，有一些技巧可以揭示对主角思想的某种自我反思分析。
1:45:10 I mean, that’s why I brought up the therapist with Michael.
我的意思是，这就是为什么我把治疗师和迈克尔一起提出来的原因。
That was a really powerful, interesting thing to do in a video game.
在电子游戏中，这是一件非常强大、有趣的事情。
Like, I, I don’t think I’ve seen…
比如说，我，我想我没见过……
That, that’s such a cool…
那、那真是太酷了……
I mean, there’s a Sopranos element there, with the therapist.
我的意思是，治疗师那里有黑道家族的元素。
Little bit, yeah.
一点点，是的。
I really love an opportunity for a character to just self-reflect through that technique.
我真的很喜欢让角色有机会通过这种技巧进行自我反思。
But it also changed depending on what you’d done.
但它也会根据你所做的事情而改变。
1:45:40 So it was sort of slightly…
所以这有点……
It wasn’t as interactive as it could be, but it was slightly interactive, or slightly responsive to what you’d done.
它没有尽可能地具有交互性，但它具有轻微的交互性，或者对您所做的事情略有响应。
So it felt it was still valid video game content, because it was living, up to a point.
所以它觉得它仍然是有效的视频游戏内容，因为它在某种程度上是活的。
And I just thought the character, Dr. Friedlander, was just funny, because he was awful.
我只是觉得弗里德兰德博士这个角色很有趣，因为他很糟糕。
So it was like LA.
所以这就像洛杉矶。
You’re in therapy.
你正在接受治疗。
It’s very LA.
非常洛杉矶。
But it’s also very LA, he wants to write a book and betray you.
但这也很洛杉矶，他想写一本书并背叛你。
1:46:04 Which felt like a good, a good twist.
这感觉是一个很好的转折。
And it was…
那是……
It felt like a Grand Theft Auto therapist.
感觉就像侠盗猎车手治疗师。
But just like the idea of making the player in a game, and games are intrinsically kind of physical, and, you know, you wa- you walk, you, you punch things, you run around, you drive cars, you shoot people, whatever.
但就像让玩家参与游戏的想法一样，游戏本质上是物理性的，而且，你知道，你走路、你打东西、你跑来跑去、你开车、你射击别人，等等。
There’s these kind of physical fantasies.
有这些身体幻想。
Trying to put them into a slightly more reflective or metaphysical state for a moment, I think can be really fun.
我认为尝试让它们暂时进入一种稍微更具反思性或形而上学的状态是非常有趣的。
I think, to me, one of the most surprising things about Red Dead Redemption, about video games, that Red Dead Redemption showed is how much value for storytelling is insanely specific, intricate details.
我认为，对我来说，关于《荒野大镖客：救赎》和视频游戏，最令人惊讶的事情之一就是《荒野大镖客：救赎》所展示的故事讲述的价值是极其具体、复杂的细节。
1:46:30 In the story, but also visually.
在故事中，也在视觉上。
It just added to the feeling that the world is real.
它只是增加了世界是真实的感觉。
So I have to ask, what are some of your favorite insanely specific, intricate details in RDR?
所以我想问一下，《RDR》中你最喜欢的一些极其具体、复杂的细节是什么？
I can give you some options.
我可以给你一些选择。
The internet’s favorite is horse testicles shrinking in cold weather.
互联网上最喜欢的是马的睾丸在寒冷的天气里收缩。
Yep.
是的。
1:47:07 Those guys did an amazing job on those.
这些人在这些方面做得非常出色。
I mean, I just…
我的意思是，我只是……
1:47:10 And there must’ve been a meeting, and there must’ve been engineers and graphics designers…
一定有一个会议，一定有工程师和图形设计师......
It was just, I think, just artists.
我认为，这只是艺术家。
Artists
艺术家
…modelers, I think.
……我想是建模者。
1:47:18 I don’t think it was that hard.
我认为这并不难。
Okay.
好的。
1:47:22 Uh-
呃-
Enough of that pun.
双关语够了。
Thank you.
谢谢。
1:47:24 Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
Arthur’s hair and beard grow in real time.
亚瑟的头发和胡须实时生长。
So, gun maintenance matters.
所以，枪支的保养很重要。
Firearms get dirty and perform worse over time.
随着时间的推移，枪支会变脏，性能也会变差。
Animal carcasses decompose realistically.
动物尸体真实地分解。
They feel like they do.
他们感觉自己就是这么做的。
That’s still extremely rare in video games.
这在电子游戏中仍然极为罕见。
1:47:39 That, the temporal aspect.
那就是时间方面。
Yes.
是的。
1:47:43 Yeah.
是的。
That permeates through time.
这贯穿了时间。
You know, NPCs remembering you.
你知道，NPC 记得你。
That’s the best.
那是最好的。
1:47:47 I mean, that’s the thing I love.
我的意思是，这就是我喜欢的事情。
Playing around with a lot of stuff in the new games around that, ’cause I think it’s super interesting.
在新游戏中围绕这一点玩了很多东西，因为我认为这非常有趣。
Okay?
好的？
It’s really powerful, right?
它真的很强大，对吧？
To make them…
为了让他们……
1:47:56 Yeah, really interesting.
是的，真的很有趣。
I think the…
我认为……
It just gives a…
它只是给出了一个...
It’s a really fun way of giving you kind of narrative content that is also systemic and procedural.
这是一种非常有趣的方式，可以为您提供系统性和程序性的叙事内容。
Yeah.
是的。
1:48:06 Is it technically really difficult to do, for, for the game, for the game to feel like it remembers you?
技术上真的很难做到吗，为了，为了游戏，为了让游戏感觉它记得你？
You know?
你知道？
I think with modern tech, it’s not that hard, but there’s a lot of stuff you need to track to make it interesting.
我认为使用现代技术，这并不难，但是你需要跟踪很多东西才能让它变得有趣。
Yeah, to have a memory.
是的，要有记忆。
1:48:20 So that’s really powerful.
所以这真的很强大。
The mud physics, so Arthur’s boots get muddy and leave actual tracks.
由于泥浆物理原理，亚瑟的靴子会变得泥泞并留下真正的痕迹。
I mean, that’s just incredible.
我的意思是，这太不可思议了。
Really, really incredible.
真的，真的难以置信。
You know, we made a dusty game.
你知道，我们制作了一款尘土飞扬的游戏。
1:48:30 Red Dead 1 is a super dusty game.
Red Dead 1 是一款超级尘土飞扬的游戏。
You know, the problem with cowboys is that if you’ve tried to make a “Greatest Hits of the Cowboy” game, and then you’ve got to make a sequel, you’ve got to come up with different geography.
你知道，牛仔的问题在于，如果你试图制作一款“牛仔精选”游戏，然后你必须制作续集，你就必须想出不同的地理位置。
So that’s why the game starts in the snow.
这就是比赛在雪地里开始的原因。
So we wanted a game that had snow and mud, because those were things you hadn’t really seen in Red Dead 1.
所以我们想要一款有雪和泥的游戏，因为这些是你在 Red Dead 1 中从未真正见过的东西。
And then the challenge is how do you make mud good in a game?
接下来的挑战是如何让泥浆在游戏中发挥作用？
And the guys did an amazing job.
这些人做得非常出色。
I mean, the snowstorm that starts the game RDR2, I don’t remember the last time I’ve experienced anything like it, but you felt it.
我的意思是，《RDR2》游戏开始时的暴风雪，我不记得上次经历过类似的事情是什么时候，但你感受到了。
1:48:55 I don’t know how the hell you do that.
我不知道你到底是怎么做到的。
It’s not just graphics, it’s everything.
这不仅仅是图形，而是一切。
Everything together.
一切都在一起。
I suppose some of the dialogue is really important to that.
我认为一些对话对此非常重要。
Also the acting.
还有演技。
1:49:11 They feel, they feel cold.
他们感觉，他们感觉冷。
Yeah, that’s right.
是的，没错。
And they feel desperate.
他们感到绝望。
1:49:14 There was that feeling of sort of…
有一种感觉……
Yes
是的
…exodus.
……出走。
1:49:17 Like you’re running away from something, that gives the game energy at the start.
就像你在逃避某件事一样，这在开始时就给了游戏能量。
And it was at night.
那是在晚上。
1:49:21 Oh man, it was just masterfully done.
天啊，这真是做得很巧妙。
And there was a big group of them.
他们有一大群。
1:49:23 The other contrast…
另一个对比……
Yes.
是的。
You know, first game, you start off as a lone wolf.
你知道，第一场比赛，你一开始就是一只孤独的狼。
1:49:25 Suddenly you’re in this big group.
突然间你就加入了这个大团体。
So it felt very different.
所以感觉很不一样。
In Arthur’s body, bullet wounds persist.
亚瑟的身上仍然留有枪伤。
1:49:30 So that temporal consistency…
所以时间一致性......
…That’s really important.
……这真的很重要。
An underweight Arthur looks gaunt, and overweight Arthur gets a gut and a fuller face.
体重过轻的亚瑟看起来憔悴，而体重过重的亚瑟则显得有胆量和更丰满的脸。
Again, those decisions that you make reveal themselves in the game across time.
同样，你做出的那些决定会随着时间的推移在游戏中显现出来。
And they’re consistent.
而且它们是一致的。
I don’t know, I did not see many games do that.
我不知道，我没有看到很多游戏这样做。
It must be difficult to do, but to give that level of care to the details in that way, across time, and for specific graphical representations of things, is incredible.
这一定很难做到，但以这种方式、跨越时间、针对事物的特定图形表示对细节给予如此程度的关注，是令人难以置信的。
Yeah, I mean, I guess…
是的，我的意思是，我想……
Do you have favorites?
你有最喜欢的吗？
1:50:05 Where you were first, like, “This is amazing.”
你一开始会说，“这太棒了。”
I think all of it.
我想这一切。
1:50:11 I think the way the whole…
我认为整个方式...
To me, the thing that I would care about most was the way the whole thing sat together.
对我来说，我最关心的是整个事情的组合方式。
You know, the fact that each of those, they all feel like they belong together with each other.
你知道，事实上，他们每个人都觉得自己属于彼此。
You made this cohesive, very, quote-unquote, “realistic” for a video game experience, and all the details feel like they mesh.
你让视频游戏体验变得有凝聚力、非常真实、“真实”，所有的细节都感觉像是相互融合的。
Well, for me, everything about the horse.
嗯，对我来说，就是关于马的一切。
1:50:31 For a lot of people.
对于很多人来说。
Testicle shrinking included.
包括睾丸缩小。
What’s the process of deciding?
决定的过程是怎样的？
The internet seems to really care about…
互联网似乎真的很关心……
I mean, they love the game so much, so they want to know if anything was cut.
我的意思是，他们非常喜欢这款游戏，所以他们想知道是否有任何内容被删减。
And I’m sure stuff was cut because you have to choose.
我确信有些东西被削减了，因为你必须做出选择。
What’s the process of deciding what to cut, what to cut scenes?
决定剪什么、剪什么场景的过程是怎样的？
Are there any scenes that you had to let go of that you really miss or wish you could have done in either GTA or RDR?
在《侠盗猎车手》或《荒野大镖客》中，是否有一些你不得不放弃但又非常怀念或希望能够完成的场景？
Well, I think the games ended up the way they were supposed to be.
好吧，我认为比赛的结局是他们应该的。
1:51:08 You know, I think there was always…
你知道，我想一直都有……
There was a bit at the start of RDR where he’d had a baby who just died in Red Dead 2, and we ended up cutting it, which was the right decision.
在《荒野大镖客》的开头，他生了一个孩子，但在《荒野大镖客 2》中刚刚去世，我们最终剪掉了它，这是正确的决定。
It was too tough in some ways.
从某些方面来说，这太艰难了。
But I think it gave him real…
但我认为这给了他真正的……
And he was not very sympathetic to his occasional girlfriend who’d had the baby.
而且他对偶尔生下孩子的女朋友也不太同情。
So, it made him very, very nasty at the start, which I thought would be interesting to play around with because then it would make his redemptive arc even more interesting.
所以，一开始这让他变得非常非常讨厌，我认为玩这个会很有趣，因为这样会让他的救赎弧线变得更加有趣。
He was not a likable character at the start, and that was one…
他一开始就不是一个讨人喜欢的角色，那就是……
And we ended up making him slightly more like…
我们最终让他变得更像……
He was still sort of tough and nasty, but he’s slightly more likable early on.
他仍然有点强硬和令人讨厌，但他一开始就稍微讨人喜欢了。
That was the right decision commercially.
从商业角度来看，这是正确的决定。
It’s better that way.
这样更好。
1:51:53 But I did, you know, but I still like that little bit.
但我做到了，你知道，但我仍然喜欢这一点。
It spoke to me personally.
这对我个人来说。
There…
那里……
And just his inability to access his emotions I thought was really strong because then later in the game he’s getting very emotional.
我认为他无法表达自己的情绪，因为在比赛后期他变得非常情绪化。
But there are also always little bits and pieces that get trimmed.
但总有一些小片段需要被修剪。
You know, and don’t…
你知道，但不……
Or missions that just are not going to work technically.
或者只是技术上行不通的任务。
Usually, it’s like, “This mission’s not going to work technically.
通常情况下，这就像，“这个任务在技术上行不通。
Oh God, we’ve got to cut it.
天啊，我们必须把它砍掉。
Okay, how do we glue the story back together?” And we got better over time at gluing the story across missing chunks.
好吧，我们如何把故事重新组合起来？”随着时间的推移，我们在将故事遗漏的部分粘合起来方面做得越来越好。
You get late in the game, and it’s just something, you know, some big challenging moment just is going to look rubbish, so you just get rid of it.
你在游戏中迟到了，这只是一些，你知道的，一些重大的挑战时刻看起来很垃圾，所以你就摆脱它。
I think editing, editing film, and I imagine editing video games, editing down is an art form, but it’s also just…
我认为剪辑，剪辑电影，我想象剪辑视频游戏，剪辑是一种艺术形式，但它也只是......
1:52:32 It feels like torture because you’re letting go of things you put so much love into.
这感觉就像折磨，因为你放弃了你投入如此多爱的东西。
Yeah, it could be changes.
是的，这可能是改变。
1:52:48 If you fall in love with something and everyone else goes, “Let’s change it,” that could be, of course, that could be upsetting in some ways.
如果你爱上某件事，而其他人都说，“让我们改变它吧”，当然，这在某些方面可能会令人不安。
Otherwise, you can care about it.
否则，你可以关心它。
But, you know, if I was involved in the big creative thing and you go, “Okay, it’s the right decision,” I can probably live with that fine.
但是，你知道，如果我参与了一项重大的创意工作，而你会说，“好吧，这是正确的决定”，我可能会接受这个罚款。
I think sometimes for designers when they’re only designing four or five missions in the whole game and two of them get cut, that must be really…
我想有时对于设计师来说，当他们在整个游戏中只设计四五个任务时，其中两个就被删掉了，那一定是真的……
…
……
Really hard.
真的很难。
Are there DLCs for RDR or GTA that you wish you had the time, when you were there, to have created?
您是否希望自己有时间在 RDR 或 GTA 中创建 DLC？
Of course.
当然。
1:53:18 There are always things I wished I’d done.
总有一些事情是我希望自己做的。
I always wished I’d done more.
我一直希望自己能做得更多。
What would you have added?
你会添加什么？
1:53:22 This is a fun, like, nerding out.
这很有趣，就像，书呆子一样。
The internet knows we made a DLC, single-player DLC for GTA 5 that never came out.
互联网上都知道我们为 GTA 5 制作了一款 DLC，单人游戏 DLC，但从未发布。
1:53:26 And we’ve also never really worked on another game.
我们也从未真正开发过其他游戏。
But I like…
但我喜欢……
The idea of it, it was a GTA zombie game.
它的想法是，这是一款 GTA 僵尸游戏。
That would have been funny.
那会很有趣。
I think that could have been quite fun.
我认为那可能会很有趣。
What was the GTA 5 DLC?
GTA 5 DLC 是什么？
It was one when you played as Trevor, but he was a secret agent.
当你扮演特雷弗时就是这样，但他是一名特工。
1:53:43 It was cute.
很可爱。
It never quite came together, and it was never finished.
它从未完全融合在一起，也从未完成。
It was about half done when it got abandoned.
当它完成时大约完成了一半就被放弃了。
But I think if that had come out, we probably wouldn’t have gotten to make Red Dead 2.
但我认为如果这个结果出来了，我们可能就不会制作《荒野大镖客 2》了。
So, there are always compromises.
所以，总会有妥协。
But it was, you know, I like making the stories.
但你知道，我喜欢编故事。
For me, I love the model of GTA 4 when you had the extra stories coming afterwards or Red Dead 1 when you had the zombie pack coming afterwards.
对我来说，我喜欢《GTA 4》的模式（之后有额外的故事），或者《Red Dead 1》（之后有僵尸包）的模式。
I like just doing these extra things.
我喜欢做这些额外的事情。
So, I would personally like to have done more of that in that company.
所以，我个人希望在那家公司做更多这样的事情。
And with stuff we’re doing in the future, we’re going to try and come up with worlds where we can add more stories.
对于我们未来所做的事情，我们将尝试想出可以添加更多故事的世界。
1:54:24 I like single player DLC.
我喜欢单人DLC。
I just think the audience loves it, and it’s really fun to make.
我只是认为观众喜欢它，而且制作起来真的很有趣。
Does it make you a little bit sad that the gaming industry, in general, is moving towards more online, less single-player DLC?
总体而言，游戏行业正朝着更多在线、更少单人 DLC 的方向发展，这是否让您感到有点悲伤？
1:54:28 Maybe that observation is incorrect, but at this moment, to me, it feels like it’s easier to make a lot of money with online…
也许这种观察是不正确的，但此时此刻，对我来说，感觉通过网上赚很多钱更容易......
If you get it right.
如果你做对了。
If you get it right.
如果你做对了。
1:54:47 And so game companies are reaching for that.
因此游戏公司正在努力实现这一目标。
It just makes me really sad because there’s so much power to…
这让我真的很难过，因为有如此大的力量……
What you did with Red Dead Redemption 2, I don’t know how during that time you were able to pull that off, but that was like a breath of fresh air.
我不知道你在《荒野大镖客：救赎 2》中所做的一切，我不知道那段时间你是如何做到的，但这就像呼吸新鲜空气一样。
In a time where everybody was moving to online and there was that huge incentive to that, you go on and draw, again, the greatest narrative in video game history and the greatest character in video game history, single-player.
在每个人都转向网络的时代，并且有巨大的动力，你会继续画出电子游戏历史上最伟大的叙事和电子游戏历史上最伟大的角色——单人游戏。
We still love single player games.
我们仍然喜欢单人游戏。
1:55:15 And I think as we started up Absurd, we did a lot of soul searching.
我认为当我们创办《荒诞》时，我们进行了很多自我反省。
1:55:23 And also a lot of cynical looking at what goes well in the industry.
还有很多人对这个行业的发展持愤世嫉俗的态度。
Luckily, if you want to do what we’re forced to do and also what I want to do, which is make new IP, you need single-player games.
幸运的是，如果你想做我们被迫做的事，也是我想做的事，即制作新IP，你需要单人游戏。
You can launch a multiplayer game with new IP.
您可以使用新IP启动多人游戏。
It’s just extremely hard.
这非常困难。
So, luckily, we are focusing on what we’re good at, which is open-world single-player games.
因此，幸运的是，我们专注于我们所擅长的领域，即开放世界的单人游戏。
We might add multiplayer components to one of them.
我们可能会向其中之一添加多人游戏组件。
I think one of them is going to be really tough later on, but we’re still thinking that through.
我认为其中之一稍后会非常艰难，但我们仍在仔细考虑。
I think we’re really leaning into single-player experience as being a strength for us as a company and something we love to do, and I think something a large part of the audience prefers.
我认为我们确实倾向于单人游戏体验，因为它是我们公司的优势，也是我们喜欢做的事情，而且我认为很大一部分观众更喜欢它。
And I’d love to, with all of those, keep single-player DLC, one way or another, going.
我很乐意在所有这些基础上，以某种方式让单人 DLC 继续下去。
Were there some other game ideas you considered while at Rockstar and afterwards that you didn’t go with?
您在 Rockstar 期间是否考虑过其他一些游戏创意，但后来没有采纳？
1:56:13 So, like, worlds-
所以，就像，世界——
Oh, yes
哦，是的
…or pirate games?
……还是海盗游戏？
1:56:23 I mean, I would love to see the notes of the possible options.
我的意思是，我很想看到可能选项的注释。
Never thought a lot about a pirate game.
从来没有对海盗游戏想太多。
Yeah?
是的？
My son is obsessed with that game Sea of Thieves at the moment, so he’s constantly saying, “Do a pirate game.” I haven’t really thought about it too much.
我儿子现在迷上了《盗贼之海》这款游戏，所以他一直在说：“做一款海盗游戏。”我还没有想太多。
1:56:31 We worked a lot on multiple iterations of an open-world spy game.
我们在开放世界间谍游戏的多次迭代上投入了大量精力。
And it never came together.
但它从未走到一起。
So Agent?
那么代理？
Agent, and it’s had about five different- …
特工，它有大约五个不同的-......
1:56:45 iterations
迭代
…so good.
……太好了。
I don’t think it works.
我认为这不起作用。
1:56:50 I concluded—and I keep thinking about it sometimes, I sometimes lie in bed thinking about it—I’ve concluded that what makes them really good as film stories makes them not work as video games.
我得出的结论是——有时我会一直思考这个问题，有时我会躺在床上思考这个问题——我得出的结论是，它们作为电影故事的真正优秀之处在于它们不能作为电子游戏。
We need to think through how to do it in a different way as a video game.
我们需要思考如何以与视频游戏不同的方式做到这一点。
So for people who don’t know, it would be hypothetically set in 1970s Cold War era.
所以对于不知道的人来说，假设故事发生在 20 世纪 70 年代的冷战时期。
That was one of the versions.
那是其中一个版本。
1:57:13 There was another one that was set in current.
还有一个是当前设置的。
We had so many different versions of this game.
我们有这个游戏的很多不同版本。
Got it.
知道了。
We worked on so many different teams.
我们在很多不同的团队工作。
But it would be more geopolitical, like espionage-
但这更具地缘政治意义，就像间谍活动一样——
That, yeah, espionage, like…
是的，间谍活动，比如……
…
……
1:57:24 and assassinations.
和暗杀。
Yeah, assassinations.
是的，暗杀。
I don’t know what it would’ve been because it never really…
我不知道那会是什么，因为它从来没有真正……
We never got it enough to even do a proper story on it.
我们甚至还没有足够的时间来编写一个适当的故事。
We’re doing the early work as you get the world up and running.
当您启动并运行世界时，我们正在做早期工作。
It never really found its feet in either of them.
它从未真正在其中任何一个站稳脚跟。
So interesting.
太有趣了。
And I sort of think I know why, because one of those films, they’re very, very frenetic and they beat, beat, beat.
我想我知道为什么，因为其中一部电影，他们非常非常疯狂，他们不停地殴打、殴打、殴打。
1:57:38 You know, you gotta go here and save the world.
你知道，你必须去这里拯救世界。
You gotta go there and stop that person from being killed and then save the world.
你必须去那里阻止那个人被杀，然后拯救世界。
And an open-world game does have moments like that when the story comes together.
开放世界游戏确实有这样的故事情节的时刻。
But for large portions, it’s a lot kind of looser and you’re just hanging out and you’re just doing what you want.
但对于大份量的食物来说，就比较宽松了，你只是闲逛，做你想做的事。
And I want freedom, and I wanna go over here and do what I want, and I wanna go over and do what I want.
我想要自由，我想去这里做我想做的事，我想去那里做我想做的事。
And that’s why it works well being a criminal, because you fundamentally don’t have anyone telling you what to do.
这就是为什么当一个罪犯很管用，因为基本上没有人告诉你该做什么。
And we try and create external agency through these people kind of forcing you into the story at times.
我们尝试通过这些人创建外部代理，有时会迫使你参与到故事中。
1:58:16 But as a spy, that doesn’t really work because you have to be against the clock.
但作为一名间谍，这并不起作用，因为你必须争分夺秒。
So I think for me, I’m, I question if you can even make a good open world spy game.
所以我认为对我来说，我怀疑你是否可以制作一款优秀的开放世界间谍游戏。
So interesting.
太有趣了。
1:58:25 So you have to be able to ride around in a car and listen to the radio-
所以你必须能够开着车到处走走并听广播-
Yeah, and cruise about.
是的，还有巡航。
…or ride a horse and just look at nature.
……或者骑马看看大自然。
So lots of things would work as open world games, but I don’t know if a spy does.
所以很多东西都可以作为开放世界游戏，但我不知道间谍是否可以。
That’s brilliantly put.
说得非常精彩。
1:58:38 But to me there’s such espionage and assassinations and…
但对我来说，有这样的间谍活动和暗杀……
…The geopolitical international context is so interesting.
……地缘政治的国际背景非常有趣。
But you’re right, I just wanna listen to what is it, Lazlo, and…
但你是对的，我只是想听听这是什么，拉兹洛，还有……
Yeah.
是的。
1:58:50 Well, you can’t…
好吧，你不能……
…on the radio.
……在广播中。
You gotta save the world.
你必须拯救世界。
1:58:52 And so you need this time pressure.
所以你需要这个时间压力。
With a Russian accent- …
带着俄罗斯口音——……
1:58:55 or something.
或者什么的。
Yeah, wow.
是的，哇。
Wow.
哇。
Yeah, that’s really interesting.
是的，这真的很有趣。
And then we played around with the knights concept that was…
然后我们尝试了骑士的概念，那就是……
Nice
尼斯
…you know, knights and trying to do a version of a mythological game that could have been fun.
……你知道，骑士们正在尝试制作一个可能很有趣的神话游戏版本。
1:59:04 And, you know, still love that idea, but never went very far with it.
而且，你知道，仍然喜欢这个想法，但从未走得太远。
Knights would be going really far back in history.
骑士队的历史可以追溯到很久以前。
Yeah, it would have to go.
是的，它必须离开。
1:59:18 It never got to writing any of it.
它从来没有必要写任何东西。
Just did some backstory and played around with a few ideas.
只是做了一些背景故事并尝试了一些想法。
But it’s always something I thought I would never do and then kind of fell in love with it a little bit.
但这总是我认为我永远不会做的事情，然后有点爱上它了。
You left Rockstar in 2020 and eventually launched Absurd Ventures as we’ve been talking about.
正如我们一直在谈论的那样，您于 2020 年离开了 Rockstar，并最终创立了 Absurd Ventures。
1:59:30 What do you miss about your time at Rockstar?
您最怀念在 Rockstar 的时光吗？
Is there specific moments that bring you joy when you think about them?
当您想起某些特定的时刻时，是否有让您感到高兴的时刻？
Of course, it was my whole, you know, it was my life for 20 something years, 21 years or something.
当然，这是我的全部，你知道，这是我二十几年、二十一年什么的生活。
1:59:43 It was and I moved to America to do it, and grew up doing it.
确实如此，我搬到美国就是为了做这件事，并且是在这件事上长大的。
And I was always living in, in New York.
我一直住在纽约。
It was a, at times, very intense and at other times magical experience.
这是一种有时非常激烈，有时又很神奇的经历。
But it was also just a huge chunk of my life.
但这也是我生活中的很大一部分。
The lows and the highs?
低点和高点？
And the middles.
还有中间部分。
2:00:07 It just, it was just my life, you know?
这只是，这就是我的生活，你知道吗？
My life was that job and the people I knew in New York, and my family.
我的生活就是那份工作、我在纽约认识的人以及我的家人。
And we were doing something that was intense and innovative, both loved and hated by wider society in different ways and at different times.
我们正在做一些激烈而创新的事情，在不同的时间以不同的方式受到更广泛的社会的喜爱和憎恨。
And in this weird company that was constantly in trouble.
而在这家奇怪的公司里，却不断陷入困境。
So it was really fun.
所以这真的很有趣。
Just even looking back at that time to today how did you evolve as a creative mind across those 20 years?
回顾一下当时到今天，在这 20 年里，您的创造力是如何演变的？
Well, I was a child, I was a 25-year-old child- …who didn’t know anything, and I wanted to be a writer, but I still wasn’t writing.
好吧，我是个孩子，我是个 25 岁的孩子——……什么都不知道，我想成为一名作家，但我仍然没有写作。
2:00:36 And I bought a notebook and I’d occasionally scribble in it, and I’ve still got those notebooks somewhere.
我买了一个笔记本，偶尔会在上面乱写乱画，我仍然把这些笔记本放在某个地方。
And I was working in video games, which were the least literary medium it’s possible to imagine at the time.
我当时从事电子游戏工作，这是当时可以想象的最不文学的媒介。
There was no room for that on PS1 games, really.
PS1 游戏上确实没有这样的空间。
2:01:00 Thinking I needed to stop and do something else, but not having the skills or the confidence to do it.
认为我需要停下来做点别的事情，但没有技能或信心去做。
And I’d been doing that in London, then I came to New York, and it was fun, really fun to be in New York, and really fun to do a new company in New York.
我一直在伦敦这样做，然后我来到纽约，在纽约很有趣，真的很有趣，在纽约创办一家新公司也很有趣。
And that was an amazing adventure.
那是一次奇妙的冒险。
But I was still lost as a human being.
但作为一个人我仍然迷失了。
And then when I was 27, I was still completely lost, a child.
然后当我27岁的时候，我仍然完全迷失，还是一个孩子。
And I stopped some of my bad behavior, and the next day pretty much the chance to write on, work on open world games and all the skills I’d half learned over the previous years and my way of thinking where I thought about space a lot because I was a geographer rather than a historian came together and I got the chance to work on an open world game.
我停止了一些不良行为，第二天几乎有机会继续写作，开发开放世界游戏，以及我在前几年学到的所有技能，以及我的思维方式，因为我是一名地理学家而不是历史学家，所以我经常思考太空，所以我有机会开发开放世界游戏。
2:01:43 So it felt like it was meant to be.
所以感觉这是命中注定的。
It was fun to explore, but really fun to explore with this team that was, you know, Alex Horton, Navid, Leslie, and the guys in Scotland and all the people in New York making these new games in this new way.
探索很有趣，但和这个团队一起探索真的很有趣，你知道，亚历克斯·霍顿、纳维德、莱斯利、苏格兰的人和纽约的所有人都以这种新的方式制作这些新游戏。
And going, “Oh, we need to find a hundred voices.
然后说道：“哦，我们需要找到一百个声音。
We’ve got no money.
我们没有钱。
How the hell are we going to do that?
我们到底要怎么做呢？
We’ll get everyone’s friends in and just record all lines of dialogue each as we kind of would invent the way that pedestrians would speak video games.” No one else was doing that kind of stuff.
我们会让每个人的朋友都进来，记录下每个人的所有对话，就像我们发明行人在电子游戏中说话的方式一样。”没有其他人做这种事。
It was insane.
这太疯狂了。
So I think that that period from kind of 2001 to 2005, it was lots of early innovation and felt really exciting because we were doing new stuff.
所以我认为从 2001 年到 2005 年这段时间，有很多早期的创新，我们感到非常令人兴奋，因为我们正在做新的东西。
It didn’t feel…
没感觉……
it felt…
感觉……
2:02:23 creative, but it didn’t feel like writing yet.
有创意，但还没有想写的感觉。
Just becoming that, we felt lots of, doing lots of creative things and learning how to assemble the stuff and learning what it could take.
刚刚成为那样，我们感觉很多，做了很多有创意的事情，学习如何组装这些东西，并了解它需要做什么。
And then I think, we talked about it earlier, but the journey into doing GTA 4 when it began to feel more like a proper writing experience.
然后我想，我们之前讨论过它，但是当它开始感觉更像是一次适当的写作体验时，制作 GTA 4 的旅程。
And I was kind of probably ready for that at that point.
那时我可能已经准备好了。
And then I was like, “Well, this is better than films.
然后我就想，“好吧，这比电影更好。
This is something that films can’t do.” You know, this 360-degree experience of being this immigrant.
这是电影做不到的。”你知道，作为一名移民，这种 360 度的体验。
And it still felt, we were still only scratching the surface.
但我们仍然感觉，我们还只是触及了表面。
I mean, it still feels like that now in some ways, but it still felt a little…
我的意思是，现在在某些方面仍然有这种感觉，但仍然感觉有点……
2:02:55 And then that five games, you know, GTA 4 and 5, Red Dead 1 and 2, all the extra packs for them, and Max Payne 3, I think we took the games thematically into new places through that period.
然后是五款游戏，《侠盗猎车手 4》和《侠盗猎车手 5》、《荒野大镖客 1》和《荒野大镖客 2》，以及所有额外的游戏包，还有《马克思佩恩 3》，我认为我们在那个时期将这些游戏的主题带到了新的地方。
From a writing perspective, that was the most exciting period.
从写作的角度来看，那是最激动人心的时期。
From a business and sort of early creativity period, the period 2001 to 2005 was probably the most exciting.
从商业和早期创意时期来看，2001 年至 2005 年可能是最令人兴奋的时期。
2:03:18 To use the original starting team, all doing well.
使用原来的首发阵容，一切都表现良好。
Personal life was doing okay, didn’t feel like such a mess.
个人生活还算顺利，没有感觉那么混乱。
And then from 2007 onward, ‘7, ‘8, was happy personally having children, happily married, and the games were just getting much better.
然后从2007年开始，“7”、“8”个人很高兴有了孩子，婚姻也很幸福，比赛也变得越来越好。
But there were lots of pressure in the business, you know, and the budgets got really big, so it added to the stress.
但你知道，业务上有很大的压力，而且预算非常大，所以这增加了压力。
So there’s always good bits and stresses, but, you know, and always just tried to show up and do my best and think about how I could do it in a new way.
所以总是有好的事情和压力，但是，你知道，我总是试图表现出来，尽我所能，并思考如何以新的方式做到这一点。
Always trying to go, “It’s a new medium.” What can we do that’s new?”
总是试图“这是一种新媒体”。我们能做什么新的事情？”
But as a writer, as a scholar of human nature, first of all, were you surprised that you were actually, you were actually able, like you had it in you, through humor and tragedy, to create these incredibly compelling characters?
但作为一名作家，作为一名研究人性的学者，首先，你是否感到惊讶，你实际上能够，就像你拥有的那样，通过幽默和悲剧，创造出这些令人难以置信的引人注目的角色？
2:03:57 ‘Cause I- I think I remember reading somewhere that James Joyce, when he was 20, said that he’s going to be the greatest writer ever.
因为我——我想我记得在某处读到詹姆斯·乔伊斯 20 岁时说他将成为有史以来最伟大的作家。
And I- I feel like every 20-year-old says this.
我-我觉得每个 20 岁的人都会这么说。
It’s just James Joyce pulls it off.
只是詹姆斯·乔伊斯成功了。
Yes.
是的。
So were you, were you surprised that you were a- actually able to do it?
那么你对自己能够做到这一点感到惊讶吗？
2:04:27 And how did that person get better and better and better at writing as you evolved?
随着你的进步，那个人的写作能力是如何变得越来越好的？
The team got better and better, so we could write in a more ambitious way.
团队变得越来越好，所以我们可以以更加雄心勃勃的方式写作。
2:04:37 The animation got better, so we could support it in a better way.
动画变得更好了，所以我们可以以更好的方式支持它。
We could go deeper.
我们可以更深入。
I mean, you couldn’t go that deep on a PS2 game, so it was also just the technology evolved.
我的意思是，你不可能在 PS2 游戏上玩得那么深入，所以这也只是技术的发展。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I felt like I was good at doing it, and I was well-trained for it.
我觉得我很擅长做这件事，而且我受过良好的训练。
I’d been in the right place at the right time, and I was both lucky and had a way of thinking about characters that, when you reduce them to about 10 sentences, was amusing.
我在正确的时间出现在正确的地点，我很幸运，而且有一种思考角色的方式，当你把它们减少到大约 10 个句子时，我会觉得很有趣。
I think I was, you know, and it was…
我想我是，你知道，而且那是……
and I saw the world in a holistic way.
我以整体的方式看待世界。
2:05:14 And I saw society in a holistic way that you could break apart into an open-world video game.
我以一种整体的方式看待社会，你可以将其分解成一个开放世界的电子游戏。
I thought about it a bunch, and the way I think about things was suitable for that, for whatever reason.
我想了很多，无论出于什么原因，我思考事物的方式都适合于此。
That was just good fortune.
那只是运气好而已。
Laszlo mentioned that it was another legend who you’re still working with.
拉斯洛提到，这是您仍在合作的另一个传奇人物。
2:05:27 He mentioned that you would lock yourself in a room writing dialogue for radio, I think.
我想他提到你会把自己锁在一个房间里为广播写对话。
You would lock yourself in a room and get anchovies and onion pizza and Diet Cokes.
你会把自己锁在一个房间里，然后吃凤尾鱼、洋葱披萨和健怡可乐。
Is this accurate information?
这是准确的信息吗？
Very accurate.
非常准确。
For which periods of your life was this fuel for your creative process?
在您生命中的哪些时期，这种能量为您的创作过程提供了动力？
2:05:45 Is it anchovies and onion pizza?
是凤尾鱼和洋葱披萨吗？
I would also get pepperoni on my half.
我也会在我的一半上放意大利辣香肠。
Okay.
好的。
Just to be technically accurate.
只是为了技术上准确。
Okay.
好的。
He wouldn’t, because he claimed to be a vegetarian in those days.
他不会，因为他当时声称自己是素食主义者。
2:05:55 But then he’d admit to me he kept chicken wings hidden in the freezer.
但后来他向我承认他把鸡翅藏在冰箱里。
So he was a sort of fake vegetarian.
所以他是一个假素食主义者。
Or I think we still do it now sometimes, as a sort of…
或者我认为我们现在有时仍然这样做，作为一种……
Yes, homage.
是的，致敬。
To memorialize.
为了纪念。
2:06:07 But that began in 2001.
但这是从2001年开始的。
And we, the office at Rockstar, was so small, and we were so broke that there was no…
而我们 Rockstar 的办公室很小，我们又破产了，没有……
and I did have a private office at the time, but it genuinely was a cupboard.
当时我确实有一间私人办公室，但它实际上只是一个橱柜。
It didn’t have a window.
它没有窗户。
It was literally sitting in a cupboard.
它实际上是坐在一个橱柜里。
So there was no room, and I had a desk and chair just for myself.
所以没有空间了，我只有一张桌子和椅子。
But I lived quite near the office, so we would write one or two afternoons a week.
但我住的地方离办公室很近，所以我们每周都会写一两个下午。
He’d come in.
他进来了。
He was a freelancer working with us.
他是一名与我们一起工作的自由职业者。
He’d come in from Long Island, and then we would jump on the subway, go to my apartment in Chelsea, and sit in this grimy little apartment I was living in and buy pizza from around the corner.
他从长岛过来，然后我们会跳上地铁，去我在切尔西的公寓，坐在我住的这间肮脏的小公寓里，从拐角处买披萨。
And that became, you know, we both liked Diet Coke and pizza, very video game developer.
然后，你知道，我们都喜欢健怡可乐和披萨，非常喜欢视频游戏开发。
And that became good luck.
这变成了好运。
2:06:52 And there we’d have these good writing sessions where we realized we got on well with each other, and that we had a similar sense of humor, and we could write the stuff, and then he would do all of the real work producing it.
在那里，我们进行了很好的写作会议，我们意识到我们彼此相处得很好，而且我们有相似的幽默感，我们可以写东西，然后他会做所有真正的工作来制作它。
So it was perfect for me because I got to outsource most of the real work, and he’s a brilliant radio producer.
所以这对我来说是完美的，因为我必须外包大部分实际工作，而他是一位出色的广播制作人。
So he was a great partner in that way.
所以从这方面来说他是一个很好的合作伙伴。
And then that was how that relationship began.
然后这段关系就是这样开始的。
And then I’d get him, I would say, “Well, we’ve got to record these 80 voices.
然后我会联系他，我会说：“好吧，我们必须录制这 80 个声音。
Come and help me because I can’t direct 80 people at once.” So he helped with that process, and he was a really good producer, like audio, like getting bodies in producers as well as technical producer.
快来帮助我吧，因为我无法同时指导 80 个人。”所以他在这个过程中提供了帮助，他是一个非常好的制作人，就像音频一样，就像在制作人和技术制作人中加入身体一样。
So he was just, that was the beginning of that relationship, and it was always…
所以他只是，那是这段关系的开始，而且总是……
2:07:27 My job was to ensure the media content felt like it reflected the tone of the world, and we would write it together.
我的工作是确保媒体内容反映了世界的基调，我们会一起写。
Then his job was just to make sure it sounded funny, like he would just produce it in a really funny way.
然后他的工作就是确保它听起来很有趣，就像他会以一种非常有趣的方式制作它一样。
Just to give a little bit more of a shout-out to Laszlo, what’s it been like working with him for over 20 years?
顺便向 Laszlo 大声喊一声，与他一起工作 20 多年感觉如何？
2:07:37 He’s working with you still.
他仍然和你一起工作。
He’s a kind of this flamboyant, colorful personality, much loved for being a voice also on radio in the Grand Theft Auto games.
他是一个个性张扬、丰富多彩的人，因在《侠盗猎车手》游戏的广播中担任配音而广受喜爱。
Yeah, and the rule was when he was the character, I would write the first pass of him.
是的，规则是当他是这个角色时，我会写他的第一遍。
2:07:58 So I would…
所以我会……
and I would get nastier and nastier over time.
随着时间的推移，我会变得越来越讨厌。
Yeah, it’s awesome.
是的，太棒了。
So to the point where he’s having his head shaved and, you know, being punished by everybody.
所以到了他被剃光头的地步，你知道，受到每个人的惩罚。
2:08:07 But even game after game, he got worse.
但即使是一场又一场的比赛，他的表现却越来越差。
He began as this quite…
他一开始就这样……
In GTA3, he’s a quite likable character, and then, you know, over the next 12, 13 years, it just got worse and worse.
在《GTA3》中，他是一个非常讨人喜欢的角色，但你知道，在接下来的 12、13 年里，他的情况变得越来越糟。
So I think he’s glad not to be doing that anymore, but he did it with great grace.
所以我认为他很高兴不再这样做，但他做得非常优雅。
He’s just a great partner because he likes, you know…
他是一个很棒的合作伙伴，因为他喜欢，你知道……
Like me, we just like making stuff.
像我一样，我们只是喜欢制作东西。
He likes to make stuff.
他喜欢制作东西。
He likes to work in new spaces.
他喜欢在新的空间工作。
He’s been a great help on bringing the comic book to life, doing a lot of the work on that.
他为将漫画书变为现实提供了很大的帮助，为此做了很多工作。
He’s working on that right now.
他现在正在研究这个问题。
And just, he’s really fun to work with, and he’s always, you know, will put creativity first.
只是，和他一起工作真的很有趣，而且你知道，他总是把创造力放在第一位。
And he’s ridiculous.
他很荒谬。
You know, he’s just a really…
你知道，他只是一个真正的……
In the best possible way, yeah.
以最好的方式，是的。
2:08:50 Outside of the games you’ve participated in and created, what do you think are some candidates for the greatest game of all time?
除了您参与和创建的游戏之外，您认为有史以来最伟大的游戏还有哪些候选者？
Tetris.
俄罗斯方块。
Tetris.
俄罗斯方块。
Tetris Game Boy.
俄罗斯方块游戏男孩。
2:09:03 No question.
毫无疑问。
Tetris and the Game Boy, yeah.
俄罗斯方块和 Game Boy，是的。
It was the perfect device for playing that game.
这是玩该游戏的完美设备。
2:09:07 I never liked it as much on anything else.
我从来没有像其他任何事情一样喜欢它。
My wife was trying to get a retro one for my kids, trying to get them for Christmas right now.
我的妻子正想给我的孩子们买一件复古的，想马上给他们买一件圣诞节礼物。
It was the most addicted I ever was to anything in my life of far too many addictions, that I was obsessed by it, dreaming about it.
这是我一生中对任何事情最上瘾的一次，太多的上瘾，我对它着迷，梦想着它。
And when you link two together with the cable and if I got four, it would push yours forward.
当你用电缆将两个连接在一起时，如果我有四个，它会推动你的前进。
It was like the perfect game design.
这就像完美的游戏设计。
So from a pure puzzle perspective, nothing comes close.
因此，从纯粹的谜题角度来看，没有什么可以接近的。
Yes, extremely simple.
是的，非常简单。
2:09:34 Pure gameplay, no narrative.
纯粹的游戏玩法，没有叙事。
No, no.
不，不。
2:09:39 Nothing.
什么也没有。
No, no personality at all.
不，一点个性都没有。
It’s a completely different thing.
这是完全不同的事情。
Perfection.
完美。
But perfect in its way.
但以它的方式完美。
2:09:44 Open-world games can’t be that perfect.
开放世界游戏不可能那么完美。
But you always dream of making something like that.
但你总是梦想着做那样的东西。
And Super Mario.
还有超级马里奥。
I think the N64 ones.
我认为是N64。
2:09:52 All of those early 3D games were very amazing when you first saw them.
当您第一次看到所有这些早期 3D 游戏时，它们都非常令人惊叹。
On the N64, PS1, when you went, it suddenly was like these games, they’re alive, and they did…
在 N64、PS1 上，当你去的时候，突然就像这些游戏一样，它们还活着，而且它们做到了……
or they’re believable in a different way.
或者它们以不同的方式是可信的。
I think that was very interesting.
我认为这非常有趣。
It looks nothing like anything else.
它看起来与其他任何东西都没有什么不同。
Nintendo has that look.
任天堂就是这个样子。
2:10:12 Doesn’t it?
不是吗？
Always.
总是。
Yeah.
是的。
2:10:14 And I think that’s the, they’re known for this Nintendo polish of every pixel has a purpose.
我认为这就是他们以任天堂对每个像素的打磨而闻名的原因。
Yes.
是的。
And what he…
而他……
2:10:23 I mean, I suppose Tetris has that same real focus on delivering a pure gaming experience with as little as possible.
我的意思是，我认为俄罗斯方块同样真正专注于以尽可能少的成本提供纯粹的游戏体验。
It’s really beautiful.
真的很漂亮。
And of course, Zelda really pioneered a lot of the feeling of a world, but it’s not quite open world.
当然，《塞尔达》确实开创了很多世界的感觉，但它并不是一个完全开放的世界。
No, but it’s amazing.
不，但这太神奇了。
2:10:41 It’s almost like the new ones, they almost, to me, feel like Hitchcock.
这几乎就像新的一样，对我来说，它们几乎就像希区柯克一样。
They’re just speaking the language of video games, you know, like, you know everything’s gonna work this way and that way.
他们只是说电子游戏的语言，你知道，就像，你知道一切都会这样或那样地运作。
It’s quite systemic, but how it all glues together is so amazing.
它非常系统化，但它们如何结合在一起真是太神奇了。
It feels like when you watch a Hitchcock film, it’s not reality.
感觉就像当你看希区柯克的电影时，这不是现实。
He’s speaking the language of cinema in a very, very strong, with a very strong accent almost.
他用一种非常非常强烈的电影语言，几乎带有很重的口音。
It’s very, very cinematic.
这非常非常电影化。
It’s not realism at all.
这根本不是现实主义。
And that’s what those Zelda games kind of feel to me like, they are these amazing things that could only be video games.
这就是我对《塞尔达传说》游戏的感觉，它们是这些令人惊叹的东西，只能是电子游戏。
They couldn’t be anything else.
他们不可能是其他任何东西。
For me, another really powerful open world is The Elder Scrolls world.
对我来说，另一个真正强大的开放世界是上古卷轴世界。
2:11:15 It’s role-playing, it’s fantasy, dragons, all that kind of stuff.
这是角色扮演、奇幻、龙，诸如此类的东西。
Todd is great at what he does.
托德很擅长他所做的事情。
2:11:25 It is.
是的。
They’re slightly, they’re more…
他们有一点，他们更多……
I mean, from a technical perspective, we’re always involved.
我的意思是，从技术角度来看，我们始终参与其中。
I’d be in the same with the new games.
我对新游戏也会有同样的感觉。
We’re constantly trying to find the balance between, you know, an RPG, a role-playing game, and an action game.
我们一直在努力寻找角色扮演游戏、角色扮演游戏和动作游戏之间的平衡。
And then that, you know, and try to go, well, an action-adventure game with RPG elements, and what does that mean?
然后，你知道，尝试一款带有 RPG 元素的动作冒险游戏，这意味着什么？
I think they’ve all kind of moved into roughly the same space.
我认为他们都搬进了大致相同的空间。
But for me, it always just comes down to, is it easy to play?
但对我来说，它总是归结为，玩起来容易吗？
Are our mechanics super slick?
我们的机械师超级熟练吗？
And then can we keep our dialogue feeling very alive?
然后我们能否让我们的对话感觉充满活力？
2:12:02 Like, I’m not always a great…
就像，我并不总是一个伟大的......
For just what we do, I like when other people do it.
就我们所做的事情而言，我喜欢其他人这样做。
For what we do, we always want very punchy dialogue, so don’t give big trees, but still have it interactive.
对于我们所做的事情，我们总是想要非常有力的对话，所以不要提供大树，但仍然要有互动性。
So we’re going to lose a touch of interactivity, but we’ll still have the dialogue feeling like it’s alive.
因此，我们将失去一点互动性，但我们仍然会让对话感觉像是活生生的。
But we’ll get better at dialogue, and it’ll feel more, a slightly more cinematic experience.
但我们会在对话方面做得更好，而且感觉会更丰富，有一种更电影化的体验。
Yeah.
是的。
2:12:23 I think The Elder Scrolls series has almost always leaned a little more towards the open world.
我认为上古卷轴系列几乎总是更倾向于开放世界。
Yes.
是的。
2:12:29 They’re real RPGs.
它们是真正的角色扮演游戏。
You know, the games that I’ve worked on, they’ve not really been RPGs.
你知道，我制作的游戏并不是真正的角色扮演游戏。
They’ve had RPG elements onto a story-driven action game.
他们将 RPG 元素融入到故事驱动的动作游戏中。
It’s just a slightly different emphasis, but I still think what they do is amazing.
只是侧重点略有不同，但我仍然认为他们所做的事情很棒。
They and he’s brilliant at doing it.
他们和他在这方面做得非常出色。
And I think Grand Theft Auto, Red Dead Redemption, and Skyrim are games where you have millions of people that just walk around or drive around.
我认为《侠盗猎车手》、《荒野大镖客：救赎》和《天际》这些游戏中，有数百万人只是四处走动或开车。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
2:12:58 And feel the world.
并感受这个世界。
Feel the world.
感受世界。
2:12:59 Just feel the world.
只是感受这个世界。
And The Witcher, same thing.
还有《巫师》，同样的事情。
And Baldur’s Gate 1, 2, and 3, really interesting.
还有博德之门 1、2、3，真的很有趣。
2:13:03 They really tried to make every choice that you make genuinely branch the game, to where it’s not the illusion of choice, it’s really…
他们真的试图让你做出的每一个选择真正地分支游戏，这不是选择的幻觉，而是真的......
Nothing.
什么也没有。
2:13:15 Yeah.
是的。
It’s really, choice really does something and that’s really hard to pull off technically.
确实，选择确实有作用，但从技术上来说很难实现。
Yes.
是的。
2:13:20 And hard to pull off.
而且很难实现。
You’re always debating the sweet spot between that and a strong story.
你总是在争论这与一个强有力的故事之间的最佳点。
You know, and strong mechanics.
你知道，还有强大的机械性能。
It’s hard to get them all, and you, as a game-making team, the whole team has to figure out where they want to fall on that line.
想要全部获得它们是很困难的，而作为一个游戏制作团队，整个团队必须弄清楚他们想要落在这条线上的哪个位置。
A difficult topic, you dedicated the book to your mom and dad.
这是一个很难的话题，您将这本书献给了您的爸爸妈妈。
2:13:41 And in particular, you wrote, “To my father, who died while I was finishing the book.” What have you learned about life from your dad?
特别是，你写道：“献给我的父亲，他在我完成这本书时去世了。”你从父亲那里学到了什么人生道理？
To show up.
出现。
2:13:57 To be present.
出席。
To go to work every day.
每天去上班。
To love creative things.
热爱有创意的事物。
You know, he was a lawyer, but he was also a jazz musician, and he did both to the best of his abilities.
你知道，他是一名律师，但他也是一名爵士音乐家，他竭尽全力做到了这两点。
To value family as more important than either of those things.
重视家庭比任何一件事都重要。
You know, he was a present guy, I think.
你知道，我认为他是一个现时的人。
And, you know, he loved books, always loved books, always loved films, loved music.
而且，你知道，他热爱书籍，一直热爱书籍，一直热爱电影，热爱音乐。
He wasn’t into video games but liked that we were doing weird things.
他不喜欢电子游戏，但喜欢我们做奇怪的事情。
Was he proud of you?
他为你感到骄傲吗？
Yeah, I think so.
是的，我想是的。
2:14:39 I hope so.
我希望如此。
And he was, for a lawyer, he really venerated at some level, giving “the man” the finger.
作为一名律师，他在某种程度上确实很尊敬，对“这个人”竖起了中指。
Like, you know, whenever life goes crazy…
就像，你知道，每当生活变得疯狂时......
…He just was always on the side of the underdog and the ridiculous.
……他总是站在弱者和可笑者一边。
And I think that, you know, he always wanted to answer people back, always give the silly comment, and I certainly, you know, taken that from him to my detriment probably, but it makes life more fun.
我认为，你知道，他总是想回答别人，总是给出愚蠢的评论，我当然，你知道，从他那里得到的可能对我不利，但这让生活变得更有趣。
He always would just say the obnoxious thing and just didn’t give a fuck.
他总是只会说些令人讨厌的话，根本不在乎。
And that was, I think that was probably quite inspiring.
我认为这可能非常鼓舞人心。
So you have a bit of that in you?
那么你身上也有这样的一点吗？
Unfortunately so, yes.
不幸的是，是的。
2:15:22 Not good at shutting up, not good at towing the line.
不善于闭嘴，也不善于拖线。
I think I speak for most of human civilization that fortunately you have that as part of who you are, because it comes through your stories.
我想我代表大多数人类文明来说，幸运的是，你拥有这一点，因为它是你的一部分，因为它来自你的故事。
I think it made school difficult.
我认为这让上学变得困难。
2:15:40 You know, they sent me to this very formal school- That was like, it might as well have been set in the 1870s, in the 1990s.
你知道，他们把我送到了一所非常正规的学校——就好像，它的背景可能是 1870 年代、1990 年代。
But then, you know, I always got in trouble just for…
但后来，你知道，我总是因为……而陷入麻烦。
not for doing anything that wrong, just answering teachers back all the time.
不是因为做错了什么，只是一直回复老师。
Couldn’t be quiet.
无法安静。
How often do you think about mortality?
您多久考虑一次死亡？
2:16:01 Are you personally, yourself afraid of death?
你个人害怕死亡吗？
Well, my father passed away in May, so a lot more since then, obviously.
嗯，我的父亲在五月份去世了，显然从那以后又去世了很多。
2:16:07 I mean, I think about it a lot.
我的意思是，我想了很多。
Am I afraid of it?
我害怕它吗？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Some days intensely and some days not at all.
有些日子很激烈，有些日子则完全不。
I would love to stay alive long enough to see my kids properly grow up and settled, of course, for them.
我很想活得足够长，看到我的孩子们好好长大并安定下来，当然，是为了他们。
Aside from that, some days I feel, you know, spiritually connected to the universe and not afraid of death at all, and other days I feel like a random piece of good luck who’s gonna get struck down by an angry fate and turn to nothingness, and that terrifies me.
除此之外，有时候我觉得，你知道，在精神上与宇宙相连，一点也不害怕死亡，而另一些时候，我感觉自己像一个随机的好运气，会被愤怒的命运击倒并化为虚无，这让我感到害怕。
I just…
我只是……
What do you think about the nothingness?
对于虚无你有什么看法？
2:16:51 I mean, that in itself is terrifying.
我的意思是，这本身就很可怕。
Yeah, that is terrifying.
是的，那太可怕了。
2:16:55 That, I mean, I tend to, I tend to, you know, I’ve spent long periods of my life tormented by that stuff.
我的意思是，我倾向于，我倾向于，你知道，我一生中很长一段时间都被这些东西折磨着。
The last few years, I tend to believe there is a purpose and a point to life, and that we have some kind of spiritual or soul-based existence.
在过去的几年里，我倾向于相信生活是有目的和意义的，我们有某种精神或基于灵魂的存在。
Not, I’m not quite sure if it matters if there is a God or not, we should probably live our lives the same way either way.
不，我不太确定是否有上帝是否重要，无论如何我们都应该以同样的方式生活。
But I tend to think that, you know, there is a metaphysical purpose to life and part of that purpose is to, you know, search for the purpose.
但我倾向于认为，你知道，生活有一个形而上的目的，而这个目的的一部分就是，你知道，寻找这个目的。
But at other points, you know, if you read too much science, you get wrapped up in the nothingness of it all.
但在其他方面，你知道，如果你读了太多的科学知识，你就会陷入其中的虚无之中。
Also, there’s a component to your brain.
此外，你的大脑还有一个组成部分。
2:17:38 When talking about Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë, you said that you have been, by fortune, struck with a bit of a capacity for the grandiosity of feeling.
当谈到艾米莉·勃朗特的《呼啸山庄》时，你说你很幸运，具有一点宏大情感的能力。
So you feel the world deeply, sometimes romantic, sometimes overly romantic.
于是你深深地感受这个世界，有时浪漫，有时过度浪漫。
You’ve said, I like this line, “Feelings may destroy you, but they’re the best thing we have.” So that ability to feel the world, is that a gift or a curse for you?
你说过，我喜欢这句话，“感情可能会毁掉你，但它们是我们拥有的最好的东西。”那么，感知世界的能力对你来说是一种天赋还是一种诅咒？
What do you think?
你觉得怎么样？
That’s a really interesting question because it’s obviously both.
这是一个非常有趣的问题，因为显然两者都是。
2:18:10 You know, at times it’s both, or at times it’s one or the other.
你知道，有时两者兼而有之，有时则两者兼而有之。
When things are going well, when you feel alive, when you feel like you’re connected to things, when you’re seeing beauty in people and joy in experiences, of course it’s wonderful.
当事情进展顺利时，当你感觉自己还活着时，当你感觉自己与事物有联系时，当你看到人们的美丽和经历中的快乐时，这当然是美妙的。
When you’re feeling like, you know, bereft and set adrift by the world and that you can’t connect to it in some way and you’re lost and abandoned by God or consciousness or fate or whatever it is, it’s awful.
当你感觉，你知道，被世界遗弃和漂流，你无法以某种方式与它联系，你迷失并被上帝、意识、命运或其他什么东西抛弃时，那是可怕的。
You know, when I feel like a dreadful hack, which is most of the time, it’s terrible.
你知道，当我感觉自己像个可怕的黑客时（大多数时候），那真是太可怕了。
You’d rather not be doing this rubbish.
你宁愿不要做这种垃圾事。
2:18:49 And then sometimes you’re working creatively and it feels good and you feel like you’re doing the right thing and it feels fantastic, but that’s not very often.
有时你会创造性地工作，感觉很好，感觉自己在做正确的事情，感觉棒极了，但这种情况并不常见。
Do you think it’s possible to have one without the other?
您认为可以两者兼得吗？
No.
不。
2:18:59 No, of course not.
不，当然不是。
When I think about growing up, to the extent that I am capable of growing up, it is about accepting the bad with the good from any situation or any aspect of myself.
当我想到成长时，在我有能力成长的范围内，就是要接受来自任何情况或我自己的任何方面的好的和坏的。
You know, going, “Okay, it’s not perfect.
你知道，“好吧，这并不完美。
I’m not perfect.”
我并不完美。”
You said you often feel like a hack.
你说你经常感觉自己像个黑客。
2:19:18 Is that self-critical part of your brain, is that a feature or a bug?
你大脑的自我批评部分是一个功能还是一个错误？
That’s an, I think it’s the new thing that we’re going to lean into, the bug feature.
我认为这是我们要关注的新事物，即错误功能。
2:19:28 It’s both, isn’t it?
两者都是，不是吗？
I mean, it cannot lead…
我的意思是，它不能导致……
That self-critical brain, I think lots of people suffer from, and I think the internet is designed to induce, if you didn’t have it before, you will have it after being online.
我认为很多人都患有这种自我批评的大脑，而且我认为互联网的设计目的是诱导，如果你以前没有它，那么你上网后就会拥有它。
It clearly can become a bug, but it also can give you drive and a lack of complacency, so it can also become a feature.
它显然可以成为一个错误，但它也可以给你动力和缺乏自满感，所以它也可以成为一个功能。
I had a pretty intense argument with Paul Conti, who’s a legendary psychiatrist, student of the mind, about this.
我和保罗·康蒂（Paul Conti）就这个问题进行了非常激烈的争论，他是一位传奇的精神病学家、心灵的学生。
2:19:56 He worked with many famous creative people and he thinks that that negative voice is not at all needed for creative genius.
他与许多著名的创意人士合作过，他认为创意天才根本不需要负面的声音。
And I thought, “I know awfully a lot of creative people that have that voice.”
我想，“我认识很多有这种声音的有创造力的人。”
I’d rather not have it, but I certainly have lived with it this far.
我宁愿没有它，但到目前为止我确实已经忍受了它。
2:20:20 There’s a danger that negativity…
消极情绪存在危险……
For me, that negativity and consciousness become the same thing, you know?
对我来说，消极和意识变成了同一件事，你知道吗？
And sometimes I have to fight to not just be perpetually negative, and that can be part of the human struggle for lots of people and certainly has been for me.
有时我必须努力奋斗，而不仅仅是永远消极，这可能是很多人的人类斗争的一部分，当然对我来说也是如此。
I think if you’re trying to do, you know, good stuff and you’re reflective inevitably, and, you know, you live in this world of constant, constant criticisms by the internet.
我认为，如果你想做一些好事，你就会不可避免地进行反思，而且，你知道，你生活在这个不断受到互联网批评的世界里。
Of course, you know, everyone who ever puts something on the internet, be it a picture of themselves or any kind of work they’ve made or whatever it is, is gonna get 50 good comments and one bad comment.
当然，你知道，每个在互联网上发布过一些东西的人，无论是他们自己的照片还是他们所做的任何工作或其他什么，都会得到 50 条好评和 1 条差评。
Remember the bad comment.
记住不好的评论。
2:21:06 So that, and that, that becomes fuel for the negative voice.
因此，这成为负面声音的助推器。
I don’t know anyone that’s strong enough not to…
我不知道有谁有足够的力量不……
You know, we all, you know, at some level you should just measure that stuff in weight, not in quality.
你知道，我们大家都知道，在某种程度上，你应该只用重量来衡量这些东西，而不是质量。
But of course we just focus on the quality.
但当然我们只关注质量。
And I do think in general, as you get older, that’s the real challenge for people.
我确实认为，总的来说，随着年龄的增长，这对人们来说是真正的挑战。
2:21:18 You can see the different trajectories people choose to take.
您可以看到人们选择采取的不同轨迹。
But it’s easy to slip into cynicism and negativity, into this Dostoevsky’s Notes from Underground, nihilistic kind of worldview.
但我们很容易陷入愤世嫉俗和消极情绪，陷入陀思妥耶夫斯基的地下手记、虚无主义的世界观。
I think the heroic action to take with time is to become more optimistic, to see more good.
我认为随着时间的推移，采取的英雄行动是变得更加乐观，看到更多美好的事物。
I think that-
我认为——
I agree
我同意
There’s probably a hero’s journey of being extremely self-critical at first for the first, maybe half of your life or two-thirds, and then while maintaining some self-critical aspects just so you stay humble, start to see the good in everything around you, in other people, in the world, and even maybe every once in a while, on a weekend, in yourself.
英雄的旅程可能是这样的：首先，也许是你生命的一半或三分之二，然后在保持一些自我批评的同时，让你保持谦虚，开始看到周围一切、其他人、世界的美好一面，甚至可能偶尔在周末，看到你自己的美好一面。
I hope so.
我希望如此。
2:22:12 I mean, that’s what I’ve been.
我的意思是，我就是这样。
I could not be more cynical.
我实在是太愤世嫉俗了。
I think you put that beautifully.
我认为你说得很漂亮。
I could not be more cynical than I was as a child.
我比小时候更加愤世嫉俗。
I could not see goodness anywhere.
我在任何地方都看不到善良。
I don’t think late 1970s to early 1990s England was a place of great optimism and naivete.
我不认为 20 世纪 70 年代末到 90 年代初的英国是一个非常乐观和天真的地方。
It was brutal, and I was brutal within it.
这很残酷，而我内心也很残酷。
And I think I’ve become much more naive and tried to become more innocent in some ways, and always try to see the flawed good in people.
我认为我变得更加天真，并试图在某些方面变得更加天真，并且总是试图看到人们身上有缺陷的优点。
I’ve tried or I’ve had to force myself to be like that because the other way is not fun.
我已经尝试过，或者我不得不强迫自己这样做，因为其他方式并不有趣。
It’s not nice to not be nice.
不友善就不好。
As a brief aside, you had a wonderful conversation with Ryan McCaffrey at LA Comic-Con.
顺便说一句，您在洛杉矶动漫展上与 Ryan McCaffrey 进行了一次精彩的交谈。
2:22:59 I’ve been a big fan of his for a long time.
很长一段时间以来我一直是他的忠实粉丝。
He writes amazing stuff at IGN, and he has a great podcast, everybody should go listen to it.
他在 IGN 写了很棒的东西，而且他有一个很棒的播客，每个人都应该去听。
I really enjoyed it.
我真的很喜欢它。
Plus, I get to attend a Comic-Con and just be there in the audience.
另外，我还可以参加动漫展并成为观众。
And like we were saying offline, the LA Comic-Con, it’s the first Comic-Con I’ve been to.
就像我们在线下所说的，洛杉矶动漫展，这是我参加的第一个动漫展。
There’s just all kinds of real, genuine nerds, good-hearted…
这里有各种各样真正的、真正的书呆子，心地善良……
Oh, it’s fascinating.
哦，这很有趣。
2:23:24 Yeah, brilliant.
是的，太棒了。
It’s just so much kindness and goodness and just simple joy in being a fan of a thing was there.
那里有太多的善意和善良，还有作为某件事的粉丝的简单快乐。
Yeah, which is what those things are all about.
是的，这就是这些事情的全部意义。
Yeah.
是的。
2:23:34 Okay, so let’s talk about some of the greatest books of all time.
好吧，让我们来谈谈有史以来最伟大的一些书。
And I should also give a shout-out to an excellent podcast he did with Sonia Walger, who’s a friend of yours, but she had a great podcast.
我还应该赞扬他与索尼娅·沃尔格（Sonia Walger）制作的精彩播客，她是你的朋友，但她的播客很棒。
She has guests pick their five favorite, most impactful books and so on.
她让客人选出他们最喜欢、最有影响力的五本书等等。
You picked five fiction books, one for each decade of your life.
你挑选了五本小说，每十年一本。
For the audience, they should go listen to that conversation.
对于观众来说，他们应该去听那段对话。
But you picked Winter Holiday by Arthur Ransome.
但你选择了亚瑟·兰瑟姆的《寒假》。
Second one was Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë.
第二部是艾米莉·勃朗特的《呼啸山庄》。
Then Tender is the Night by F.
然后是 F 的《Tender is the Night》。
Scott Fitzgerald.
斯科特·菲茨杰拉德。
The Thin Red Line by James Jones, and Middlemarch by George Eliot.
詹姆斯·琼斯的《细细的红线》和乔治·艾略特的《米德尔马契》。
But just zooming out, reflecting back on that conversation, what do you think if an alien came, what are some candidates for books that you would recommend to them?
但只要把镜头拉远，回想一下那次谈话，如果外星人来了，你会怎么想？你会向他们推荐哪些书籍？
Middlemarch.
米德尔马奇。
Middlemarch.
米德尔马奇。
It’s the best novel written in English.
这是最好的英文小说。
2:24:23 War and Peace is one of the best novels written in Russian, I would argue.
我认为，《战争与和平》是用俄语写的最好的小说之一。
I think both of those are because if you’ve only got one book, you want a long book.
我认为这都是因为如果你只有一本书，你想要一本很长的书。
Yeah, true.
是的，没错。
And they’re both books that kind of…
这两本书都是这样的……
2:24:39 it’s something I was always trying to put into games, and you know, that feeling of all of life is here.
这是我一直试图将其融入到游戏中的东西，你知道，那种生活的感觉就在这里。
You’ve got love, death, violence, romance, the whole human experience in different ways.
你以不同的方式体验到爱、死亡、暴力、浪漫，以及整个人类的经历。
So I think there’s something amazing about, you know, Vanity Fair, I used to love the novel, not the magazine, because same thing, all of life is here.
所以我认为《名利场》有一些令人惊奇的地方，我曾经喜欢小说，而不是杂志，因为同样的事情，所有的生活都在这里。
You also spoke highly of F.
您对F也给予了很高的评价。
2:25:04 Scott Fitzgerald and Hemingway.
斯科特·菲茨杰拉德和海明威。
I was obsessed by them in my 20s.
我在20多岁的时候就被它们迷住了。
2:25:08 Completely obsessed.
完全着迷了。
As one must be.
必须如此。
2:25:12 Absolutely.
绝对的。
At that age, and I think them as a double act is so amazing.
在那个年纪，我觉得他们作为双人表演真是太神奇了。
2:25:14 One helped discover the other and then died first, and then suddenly died in obscurity and then was rediscovered as a genius while the other one was still alive and falling into not obscurity but into decline.
一个帮助发现了另一个，然后先死了，然后突然默默无闻地死去，然后被重新发现为天才，而另一个还活着，不是陷入默默无闻，而是走向衰落。
I think their relationship is itself very novelistic.
我觉得他们的关系本身就很新颖。
That, by the way, is a phenomenon of writing maybe no longer, maybe still, that, you know, people like Franz Kafka who died in obscurity.
顺便说一句，这是一种写作现象，也许不再，也许仍然，像弗朗茨·卡夫卡这样默默无闻地死去的人。
2:25:37 All these writers who die in obscurity.
所有这些作家都默默无闻地死去。
Nobody knows them and they become famous later.
没有人认识他们，后来他们就出名了。
That is just so interesting.
那真是太有趣了。
That’s such an interesting…
这真是一个有趣的……
You know, Franz Kafka in particular is fascinating because he wanted all of his work to be burnt, like destroyed.
你知道，弗朗茨·卡夫卡尤其令人着迷，因为他希望他的所有作品都被烧毁，就像被毁掉一样。
So that, speaking of the critical voice, and I think he’s one of the best writers of the 20th century.
所以，说到批评的声音，我认为他是20世纪最好的作家之一。
Of course, the dystopian novels are really interesting, 1984, Brave New World.
当然，反乌托邦小说确实很有趣，1984年，美丽新世界。
I love 1984.
我喜欢1984年。
2:26:20 I’d never listened to it or read it, and then I think I did it on Talking Book, or I maybe read it, I can’t remember, during COVID.
我从来没有听过或读过它，然后我想我是在《Talking Book》上做到的，或者我可能在新冠疫情期间读过它，我不记得了。
And became, I think I did both, became obsessed by it.
我想我两者都做到了，并变得对此着迷。
And it’s got the elements of that creeping into A Bed of Paradise, but it’s so good.
它有潜入天堂之床的元素，但它太棒了。
Nice.
不错。
I hadn’t realized how good it was.
我没有意识到它有多好。
Yes.
是的。
And it’s so of the moment.
这就是当下。
It’s almost like because of its fame and…
这几乎就像是因为它的名气和……
2:26:39 …It’s almost like cliché, and you take away the character-
……这几乎就像陈词滥调，你拿走了这个角色——
Yeah, if it were English…
是啊，如果是英语的话……
2:26:45 And I remember the year 1984.
我还记得1984年。
And you’re like, “This is…” I remember the song.
你会说，“这是……”我记得这首歌。
It’s just too much.
实在是太多了。
Yeah, too much.
是的，太多了。
It can’t be that good.
不可能那么好。
2:26:50 And then it was that.
然后就是这样。
I came to it completely cold, just, “Oh, I should work my way through this because it’s another classic I haven’t read.” And then it’s incredible.
我对此完全冷淡，只是，“哦，我应该努力读完这本书，因为这是另一本我还没读过的经典著作。”然后这真是令人难以置信。
And the book I’ve read more than any other book is Animal Farm by George Orwell.
我读得最多的书是乔治·奥威尔的《动物农场》。
2:26:59 I don’t know why exactly, but the childlike fairy tale telling of totalitarianism.
我不知道到底为什么，但这是极权主义的童趣童话故事。
Well, you grew up in a communist country.
嗯，你是在共产主义国家长大的。
Yeah, maybe that’s it.
是的，也许就是这样。
2:27:12 The roots of it.
其根源。
You know, I remember, I was a kid in the Cold War in London.
你知道，我记得，我还是个在伦敦冷战时期的孩子。
2:27:14 And we were always terrified of Eastern Europeans.
我们总是害怕东欧人。
You were going to come and kill us all.
你会来杀掉我们所有人。
And then I ended up marrying a Pole.
然后我最终嫁给了一个波兰人。
And I was…
而我当时……
We were…
我们是……
And we had Ukrainians who worked for us and worked with us.
我们有乌克兰人为我们工作并与我们一起工作。
And a few years ago, we were sitting around a campfire in Upstate New York, with the campfire built by our old nanny’s husband, who’s Ukrainian, and he’d been in the Red Army.
几年前，我们坐在纽约州北部的篝火旁，篝火是我们老保姆的丈夫生的，他是乌克兰人，曾参加过红军。
I was like, history is so strange that you end up…
我当时想，历史是如此奇怪，以至于你最终......
The Red Army used to be the ultimate enemy.
红军曾经是最终的敌人。
And like, we’re now just hanging out with…
就像，我们现在只是一起出去玩……
It’s like, everything changes.
就像，一切都变了。
You think these things are permanent, and they’re really not.
你认为这些东西是永久的，但事实并非如此。
2:27:55 You know, and we face some of that now, where you think these structures are permanent, and they’re going to change.
你知道，我们现在面临着一些问题，你认为这些结构是永久性的，但它们将会改变。
And you also mentioned that the three great World War II books are The Thin Red Line and Life and Fate by Vasily Grossman.
您还提到，二战时期的三本伟大著作是瓦西里·格罗斯曼的《细细的红线》和《生命与命运》。
2:27:59 And The End of the Affair by Graham Greene.
格雷厄姆·格林的《事件的终结》。
What makes for a great war book?
是什么造就了一本伟大的战争书？
I think World War II is interesting because it affects everywhere, obviously.
我认为第二次世界大战很有趣，因为它显然影响到了所有地方。
2:28:14 And so you can get all these different kinds of stories.
所以你可以获得所有这些不同类型的故事。
And there are so many good…
而且还有很多好的...
I was just trying to come up with a range of one American, one British, one Eastern European, just to get different perspectives.
我只是想提出一系列的一个美国人，一个英国人，一个东欧人，只是为了获得不同的观点。
But there are so many amazing World War II books around all kinds of stories.
但关于二战的各种故事有很多令人惊叹的书籍。
I think the most complete one, because it is this all of life being there, probably is Life and Fate.
我认为最完整的一个，因为生命的全部都在那里，可能就是生命和命运。
Which is amazing.
这太棒了。
It was written by Vasily Grossman.
它的作者是瓦西里·格罗斯曼。
2:28:44 He experienced Stalingrad firsthand.
他亲身经历了斯大林格勒。
And there’s also just a deep philosophical component.
还有一个深刻的哲学成分。
And the bit in Treblinka is one of the most harrowing sections of any book I ever read.
特雷布林卡的那段情节是我读过的所有书中最令人痛苦的部分之一。
2:28:51 And it really, almost more than any other piece of art around the Holocaust, made me feel what you would feel like at that moment.
它确实比任何其他有关大屠杀的艺术品都更让我感受到那一刻的感受。
I mean, it’s just an incredible piece of humanism.
我的意思是，这只是一个令人难以置信的人文主义。
And also just, I mean, Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl.
我的意思是，维克托·弗兰克尔的《人类寻找意义》。
Yeah.
是的。
2:29:11 Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
It seems like that context reveals, in the most pure way, human nature and what kind of…
似乎这样的语境，以最纯粹的方式揭示了人性，以及什么样的……
2:29:12 You know, in Man’s Search for Meaning is when everything is taken from you, you know, the little remains of love for, in this case, his wife…
你知道，在男人寻找意义的过程中，当你的一切都被夺走时，你知道，在这种情况下，对他妻子的爱只剩下一点点......
…Is the thing that is a little flame that burns.
……是燃烧的小火焰的东西。
And let’s say your Grossman is small acts of kindness…
假设你的格罗斯曼是一些小小的善举……
…Is the thing that allows the human spirit to persist.
……是让人类精神得以坚持的东西。
I love the bit in Life and Fate when you get…
我喜欢《生命与命运》中的那一点，当你得到……
2:29:43 Obviously, it’s in this Stalinist period, and so they’re all losing…
显然，这是在斯大林主义时期，所以他们都在失败……
They all know that what they thought was going to be wonderful about the revolution isn’t going to happen.
他们都知道，他们认为革命会发生的美好事情不会发生。
So everyone’s scared of being killed by Stalin because it’s post the purges.
所以每个人都害怕被斯大林杀死，因为那是在清洗之后。
But then you get these guys and they’re trapped in a building, fighting in Stalingrad.
但当你看到这些人时，他们被困在一座建筑物里，在斯大林格勒作战。
And so they know at this moment they’re dead anyway.
所以他们知道此时此刻他们无论如何都死了。
And they get to live like pure, perfect Marxist communists away from Stalin and all his nonsense.
他们可以像纯粹、完美的马克思主义共产主义者一样生活，远离斯大林和他的胡言乱语。
And I thought that section’s incredible because you realize in some ways, in all of its horrors, the most disappointing thing about the 20th century, in some ways, was the absolute failure of communism.
我认为这部分令人难以置信，因为你会在某些方面意识到，在所有的恐怖中，20 世纪最令人失望的事情，在某些方面，是共产主义的彻底失败。
2:30:29 You know?
你知道？
It was…
这是……
Because it was such a, you know, quote-unquote beautiful idea and it just did not work time and time again.
因为这是一个，你知道，引用不引用的美丽想法，但它一次又一次地行不通。
And these people who fought for it and then saw it not working, I think they’re sort of fascinating characters.
这些为之奋斗却发现不起作用的人，我认为他们是一些令人着迷的人物。
You know…
你知道……
…All of the revolutionaries from 1917 that were then killed by Stalin, which was all of them apart from him and Lenin.
……1917年以来所有被斯大林杀害的革命者，除了他和列宁之外。
And that was, you know, people in modern-day politics talk about communism like it’s trivially, it’s trivial that it would lead to atrocities, but I don’t think it’s that trivial.
那就是，你知道，现代政治中的人们谈论共产主义就像它是微不足道的，它会导致暴行，但我不认为它是那么微不足道。
2:30:50 It’s this idealism of humans.
这就是人类的理想主义。
It’s like, you know, why can’t…
就像，你知道，为什么不能……
Basically, why can’t we all get along?
基本上，为什么我们不能和睦相处呢？
There’s a real compassion behind it.
这背后有真正的同情心。
There’s real love.
有真爱。
And what you realize is there is…
而你意识到的是……
it’s a real study, the 20th century, of human nature that unfortunately at scale, that kind of compassion is abused by centralized power.
这是 20 世纪对人性的真正研究，不幸的是，这种同情心在规模上被中央集权滥用了。
So there’s a dictator always, in that context, in those, given that set of technologies, a dictator arises and does the opposite…
因此，在这种情况下，总是有一个独裁者，在那些技术中，独裁者会出现并做相反的事情......
…Of what the promise of the ideal is supposed to be.
……理想的承诺应该是什么。
Well, I think…
嗯，我想……
2:31:37 I thought a lot about that then because I was taught by all these disappointed communists, you know?
当时我想了很多，因为所有这些失望的共产主义者都教导过我，你知道吗？
After ’89, all of these English communists, you know, were all like having to access, discovering all these atrocities that happened in…
89 年后，所有这些英国共产党人，你知道，都像是必须访问，发现发生在……的所有这些暴行。
You know, so it was, it always fascinated me.
你知道，事实就是如此，它总是让我着迷。
And then you think about complexities or where one’s own values are in the modern moment.
然后你会考虑复杂性或一个人自己的价值观在现代的位置。
And I say, you know, without, and whether either of them, what we would call left now or call right now, does it have any bearing on the sort of communist era of those words?
我说，你知道，如果没有他们中的任何一个，我们现在所说的左派或现在所说的，对这些词的共产主义时代有什么影响吗？
And I would say probably not.
我想说可能不会。
I think things have changed, but fundamentally, the one value that I would go, I would think is worth fighting for is whenever either side starts to move towards thought control…
我认为事情已经发生了变化，但从根本上说，我认为值得为之奋斗的一个价值观是，每当任何一方开始走向思想控制……
…Move away.
……走开。
2:32:25 That’s never the right outcome.
这永远不是正确的结果。
The never right outcome is, “Oh, you’ve said the wrong thing.
永远不正确的结果是：“哦，你说错了。
You should be removed now.” That should never ever be a thing we should lean towards.
你现在就该被除名了。”这永远不应该是我们应该倾向于的事情。
Yeah, it does seem like freedom, individual freedom, is a prerequisite for…
是的，看起来自由，个人自由，是……的先决条件。
For happiness.
为了幸福。
…for happiness…
……为了幸福……
2:32:42 …For the flourishing of a larger society.
……为了更大社会的繁荣。
So there’s, like you said, 1984 is pretty…
所以，就像你说的，1984 年很美好……
I mean, it’s a caricature.
我的意思是，这是一幅漫画。
But it is brilliant.
但这是辉煌的。
It’s quite…
真是……
2:32:49 It’s actually also just a good story.
这实际上也只是一个好故事。
That’s my criticism of Brave New World, it’s just poorly written.
这就是我对《美丽新世界》的批评，它写得不好。
But I think Brave New World probably applies more to the 21st century than does 1984, so…
但我认为《美丽新世界》可能比 1984 年更适用于 21 世纪，所以……
I don’t know.
我不知道。
2:33:02 I think 1984 with the fake wars…
我认为 1984 年有假战争……
…And the way that it revealed…
......以及它揭示的方式......
…Everything in it was a setup for him.
……这里面的一切都是为他安排的。
There’s something that if he could’ve seen the internet…
如果他能看到互联网的话……
there’s something of, it’s like an analog internet, that world they build.
他们构建的世界就像模拟互联网一样。
…Around the main character.
……围绕主角。
What advice would you give to a young person today about, let’s say, career?
比如说，关于职业，你会给今天的年轻人什么建议？
2:33:19 How to have a career they can be proud of, how they can have a life to be proud of?
如何拥有值得骄傲的事业，如何拥有值得骄傲的人生？
You’ve had a non-standard life.
你过着不标准的生活。
I’ve had a lucky life in which I have fought to mess things up and fate has always thrown me a bone.
我的生活很幸运，我一直在努力把事情搞砸，但命运总是给我一根骨头。
You’ve traveled in South America and had hobos chase you with machetes.
你曾在南美洲旅行过，也曾被流浪汉用砍刀追赶过。
Yeah, once.
是的，一次。
So that happened.
于是事情就这样发生了。
That was a series of poor life decisions.
这是一系列糟糕的人生决定。
2:33:49 And I ran away.
我逃跑了。
You know, I mean, I ran away to South America.
你知道，我是说，我逃到了南美。
That was a poor decision.
这是一个糟糕的决定。
I ran away from the guy with a knife.
我逃离了那个拿着刀的家伙。
That was a good decision.
这是一个很好的决定。
I came to America.
我来到美国。
That was a good decision.
这是一个很好的决定。
I came to LA, that’s, I think, been a good decision.
我来到洛杉矶，我认为这是一个很好的决定。
It’s been fun to see a different side of America and be in a different creative environment.
看到美国的不同侧面并处于不同的创意环境中是很有趣的。
LA is still amazing for creativity and entertainment, the wider entertainment industry stuff.
洛杉矶的创造力和娱乐性以及更广泛的娱乐业方面仍然令人惊叹。
I think that’s been fun.
我认为这很有趣。
What would I say?
我会说什么？
I would say when you get a chance, take it.
我会说，当你有机会时，抓住它。
That was one thing I did do well.
这是我做得很好的一件事。
2:34:33 When I got chances, I was good at taking them.
当我有机会时，我善于抓住它们。
I would say do not worry too young about your career.
我想说的是，不要太年轻就担心你的职业生涯。
I would say worry about having a rounded intellectual inner life, because you’re going to spend the whole of your life in your own head.
我想说的是，要担心拥有全面的智力内心生活，因为你将在自己的头脑中度过一生。
So the more interesting you find your own head, the more interesting you find the world, the less you’re going to annoy yourself.
因此，你发现自己的头脑越有趣，你发现世界就越有趣，你就越不会惹恼自己。
So I would say, I would say do not do a vocational degree as an undergraduate.
所以我想说，我想说不要作为本科生攻读职业学位。
That’s been my…
那是我的……
I would say do something else.
我会说做点别的事。
Do something, you know, random and then focus afterwards.
随机做一些事情，然后集中注意力。
That would be, I think I was advocating against the obsession that people had about four years ago with STEM subjects.
也就是说，我认为我是在提倡反对人们大约四年前对 STEM 科目的痴迷。
2:35:14 And now AI is going to make them all irrelevant anyway, perhaps.
现在人工智能也许会让它们变得无关紧要。
So, you know, it’s interesting to see everything changes.
所以，你知道，看到一切都发生变化是很有趣的。
Jobs are not that hard.
工作并没有那么难。
You know, turn up, be enthusiastic.
你知道，出现，充满热情。
Turn up in person, be enthusiastic.
亲自到场，热情。
Help people.
帮助人们。
Say, “You’ll be fine in any job.” People, you know.
说：“你适合任何工作。”人们，你知道。
Did you always know when the chance to take showed up?
你总是知道什么时候抓住机会吗？
2:35:37 Like, “Okay, this is interesting, this is new, this is different”?
就像，“好吧，这很有趣，这是新的，这是不同的”？
Not always, no.
并不总是，不。
2:35:42 But the big times were the chance to move to America.
但最重要的时刻是移居美国的机会。
For me, that was a big moment.
对我来说，那是一个重要的时刻。
My life was a mess in…
我的生活一团糟……
That was weird timing.
那是一个奇怪的时机。
2:35:49 I read that Sam wrote you an email.
我读到萨姆给你写了一封电子邮件。
What…
什么……
In South America…
在南美洲...
I was literally in South America in Colombia, where there was a war raging.
我确实在南美洲的哥伦比亚，那里正在发生一场激烈的战争。
2:35:56 I was making a series of very poor life choices and had a lack of life skills at age 25.
25 岁时，我做出了一系列非常糟糕的人生选择，并且缺乏生活技能。
My latest poor choice was to get up too early because the police didn’t start work until 9:00, but the muggers started at 8:00.
我最近的糟糕选择是起得太早，因为警察直到 9:00 才开始工作，但抢劫犯却在 8:00 开始。
So I was out walking along the beach at 8:00, and these guys…
所以我在 8:00 沿着海滩散步，这些家伙……
this Rasta who turned up, who I’d been talking to the day before, started trying to talk to me.
这位拉斯塔出现了，我前一天一直在和他说话，现在他开始试图和我说话。
Then two guys came up to talk to him, and I couldn’t tell if they were trying to mug him because he owed them money or if he brought me to them.
然后有两个人走过来和他说话，我不知道他们是因为他欠他们钱而想抢劫他，还是他把我带到他们那里。
But I did notice one of them had a machete, and the other had a kind of broken gun.
但我确实注意到其中一个拿着砍刀，另一个拿着一把坏掉的枪。
So I thought, “This is not good.” And I ran off, sprinted down the beach in my silly shoes.
所以我想：“这不好。”然后我就跑了，穿着傻乎乎的鞋子沿着海滩冲刺。
2:36:48 And I got the chance for once in my life to run over to a road, jump into a taxi, and scream, “Take me anywhere!” I felt like I was in an action movie with a guy chasing after me with a machete.
我一生中只有一次机会跑到马路上，跳上出租车，尖叫着：“带我去任何地方！”我感觉就像在一部动作片中，一个人拿着砍刀追赶我。
The taxi driver looked back, saw the dude with the machete, and went, “?” And I’m like, “No, no, no, they’re not my friends.”
出租车司机回头一看，看到了拿着砍刀的家伙，问道：“？”我说：“不，不，不，他们不是我的朋友。”
2:37:05 “Get me out of here.” He drove me up the street into a bit where the town was, kind of between the old town and the new town in Cartagena.
“带我离开这里。”他开车带我沿着街道来到小镇所在的地方，有点像卡塔赫纳的老城区和新城区之间。
I got out of the car and then cut my foot on a rock.
我下了车，然后被石头割伤了脚。
That was the sum total of my injuries.
这就是我受的伤的总和。
Then I went to an internet cafe because this was probably late ’98 and got the chance to come and work on a game for six weeks in New York.
然后我去了一家网吧，因为当时可能是 98 年末，我有机会来纽约开发一款游戏，为期六周。
I was like, “Well, if I stay in South America much longer, I’m going to get myself killed,” because I was getting into silly stuff.
我当时想，“好吧，如果我在南美待得更久，我就会自杀，”因为我陷入了愚蠢的事情。
So I went to New York, and they were just starting Rockstar.
于是我去了纽约，当时 Rockstar 刚刚成立。
I got to write the mission statements and whatnot there, help set the tone for that, and just ended up staying.
我必须在那里写下使命宣言之类的东西，帮助定下基调，然后就留下来了。
2:37:48 I had to come and go a bit while all the visas got sorted out.
在所有签证都办完的时候，我不得不来来去去。
And then I just ended up staying.
然后我就留下来了。
“I’ll stay for a year because New York’s pretty fun.” It actually was not that…
“我会待一年，因为纽约很有趣。”其实不是这样的……
this was the height of Giuliani before he was a maniac.
这是朱利安尼在成为疯子之前的身高。
You couldn’t, when you went to bars, you were told you couldn’t dance.
你不能，当你去酒吧时，你被告知你不能跳舞。
Because they were trying to clamp down on New York being fun.
因为他们试图压制纽约的乐趣。
So it was actually less fun than London, but there’s still a great energy in New York.
所以它实际上没有伦敦那么有趣，但纽约仍然充满活力。
And got exposed to the kind of madness of New York capitalism.
并接触到了纽约资本主义的疯狂。
By the way, as we hear sirens in the background, that always makes me think of New York.
顺便说一句，当我们听到背景中的警报声时，这总是让我想起纽约。
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
Whenever I’m in New York…
每当我在纽约时...
2:38:22 …There’s always sirens.
......总是有警报。
Steam coming out the floor, people screaming at you.
蒸汽从地板上冒出来，人们对你尖叫。
2:38:23 I mean, you get people screaming at you in LA, at least.
我的意思是，至少在洛杉矶，人们会对你尖叫。
But it’s more…
但更多的是……
Yeah, it’s more spread out
是的，更加分散
…spread out, yeah.
……散开，是的。
You can get a bit more quiet here.
你可以在这里安静一点。
2:38:31 And I love the energy.
我喜欢这种能量。
You know, it was great to work hard and then be able to go out for dinner late.
你知道，努力工作然后很晚还能出去吃晚饭真是太好了。
And, and it, New York was really, really a fun experience for me.
而且，纽约对我来说真的是一次非常非常有趣的经历。
You worked with your brother, Sam, for many years.
你和你的兄弟萨姆一起工作了很多年。
2:38:42 What do you admire about him as a creative mind, as a human being?
作为一个富有创造力的人，作为一个人，你对他有什么钦佩之处？
His drive and his vision early on to see what video games could become.
他的动力和愿景很早就看到了电子游戏的未来。
2:38:52 He was the one who understood that video games were the next big thing.
他是那个明白电子游戏是下一件大事的人。
And I think that was, you know, people would laugh in our face about that in those days.
我认为，在那些日子里，人们会当着我们的面嘲笑这一点。
So to have someone that was strong and saying, “No, no, we stay the course,” and then having the confidence to push through with these big projects.
因此，要有一个坚强的人说：“不，不，我们坚持到底”，然后有信心推进这些大项目。
Are you excited for the future of video games?
您对电子游戏的未来感到兴奋吗？
Yeah.
是的。
2:39:22 I think we’re…
我想我们是……
I, I…
我，我……
Completely.
完全。
I still, I still look…
我还是，我还是看着……
I’m glad you’ve spoken so, I mean, you’ve spoken so kindly about our work, about the stuff that I did and the stuff the whole teams did.
我很高兴你这么说，我的意思是，你对我们的工作、我所做的事情以及整个团队所做的事情如此友善地谈论。
It’s wonderful.
太棒了。
But I just look at it and see problems.
但我只是看着它，就发现了问题。
And see things that we can make do better.
并看看我们可以做得更好的事情。
You know, I think it was always, try each time to do it better.
你知道，我认为每次都尝试做得更好。
And I’ve got, you know…
我有，你知道……
Some of the stuff we’re working on now is going to do stuff that people haven’t really seen before.
我们现在正在做的一些事情将是人们以前从未真正见过的事情。
And then I think it’s just…
然后我想这只是……
I think that games can get so much better.
我认为游戏可以变得更好。
They can feel so much more alive.
他们会感觉更有活力。
All the…
所有的…
2:39:58 They can be better at storytelling and feel more alive and feel like, you know, their systems, all the stuff, the, the component parts we talked about.
他们可以更好地讲故事，感觉更有活力，感觉就像，你知道，他们的系统，所有的东西，我们谈论过的组成部分。
We can both make each of those parts better.
我们都可以让每个部分都变得更好。
…And tie them together better.
......并将它们更好地结合在一起。
I think it’s…
我认为这是……
The technology is all…
技术就是一切……
To me, it still feels like it’s only just beginning.
对我来说，仍然感觉一切才刚刚开始。
You know, it’s been, it’s been…
你知道，曾经是，曾经……
Cinema evolved from like 1900, 1895, whenever it was, until they invented talking in 1930 or whenever that was.
电影从 1900 年、1895 年（无论什么时候）开始发展，直到他们在 1930 年或任何时候发明了说话。
It’s not that.
不是那样的。
And then it’s kind of found its modern form, and then by ’39, they’re shooting in color.
然后它就找到了现代形式，然后到了 39 年，他们开始用彩色拍摄。
And that’s…
那是……
Basically, a modern film is no different from a 1939 film.
基本上，现代电影与 1939 年的电影没有什么不同。
But with games, I still think we’ve got a long way to go.
但在游戏方面，我仍然认为我们还有很长的路要走。
The tech-
该技术-
2:40:37 …there’s so many different parts of the tech that it’s still got a long way to go and you can go in all different fun directions.
……这项技术有很多不同的部分，它还有很长的路要走，你可以朝所有不同的有趣方向发展。
I just wish…
我只是希望……
2:40:43 And I know you said video games take a lot less than they could, but I just wish it was faster.
我知道你说过电子游戏比它们能花的时间少得多，但我只是希望它能更快。
Like, you’ve already made me…
就像，你已经让我……
Me too
我也是
…fall in love with Absurdiverse, and you’ve made me fall in love with the Better Paradise, and now I am going to sit depressed, realizing we’ll have to wait.
……爱上了《荒诞派》，你让我爱上了《更好的天堂》，现在我会沮丧地坐着，意识到我们必须等待。
2:40:52 I could, of course, read…
我当然可以阅读……
Well, we should have some little short cartoons coming out in a while for Absurdiverse and more stuff coming in the next period.
好吧，我们应该会在一段时间内为 Absurdiverse 推出一些小短片，并在下一个时期推出更多内容。
2:41:02 But yeah, it just takes, it takes a little bit of time.
但是，是的，这只是需要一点时间。
You know, I think, I mean, big movies are four years plus from start to end.
你知道，我想，我的意思是，大电影从开始到结束需要四年多的时间。
…You know, with all the legal stuff at the start, you know?
......你知道，一开始就有所有合法的东西，你知道吗？
We’ll be about the same.
我们也会差不多的。
Yeah.
是的。
2:41:21 And certain movies from idea to completion, I mean, take 10 plus years, some of the greats, and…
我的意思是，某些电影从构思到完成，需要十多年的时间，其中一些伟大的电影，还有……
Yeah, I mean, often.
是的，我的意思是，经常。
2:41:27 A lot of that is just that development process.
其中很多只是开发过程。
…
……
That is really…
那真是……
Sometimes feels like it’s designed to not make stuff.
有时感觉它的设计目的不是为了制造东西。
A bit more of a specific advice, but on the topic of video games, what advice would you give to to maybe independent video game creators that are dreaming of creating great games?
更多具体的建议，但在视频游戏主题上，您会给那些梦想创造出色游戏的独立视频游戏创作者什么建议？
2:41:33 They’re inspired by Red Dead, they’re inspired by all the incredible open worlds and narratives you’ve created.
它们的灵感来自于《Red Dead》，它们的灵感来自于您所创造的所有令人难以置信的开放世界和叙事。
Like, how’s it possible to have a chance at doing something like that?
就像，怎么可能有机会做这样的事情？
I mean, it’s part of…
我的意思是，这是……的一部分
2:41:56 There’s two ways.
有两种方法。
Try and do it cheaply with yourself and a small group, or join a company that you think is doing it the right way, you know?
尝试与自己和一小群人一起以较低的成本进行这项工作，或者加入一家您认为这样做正确的公司，你知道吗？
And I think there’s upsides to either of those.
我认为这两者都有好处。
I think if you want to make something that’s cinematic…
我想如果你想制作一些电影化的东西......
Yeah, AI is going to change some of this.
是的，人工智能将改变其中一些。
But if you want to make something that’s cinematic, you need resources.
但如果你想制作电影化的东西，你就需要资源。
You can still make something that’s really interesting that isn’t super cinematic, but it’s an interesting experience in some ways.
你仍然可以制作一些真正有趣但不是超级电影化的东西，但在某些方面这是一种有趣的体验。
But the second you’re involving actors and motion capture and one of those big experiences, it’s going to cost some money.
但一旦你涉及演员和动作捕捉以及这些重大体验之一，就需要花费一些钱。
So therefore, if you want to do that, you’ve got to figure out what companies you want to work at and figure out how you get to work there.
因此，如果你想这样做，你必须弄清楚你想在哪些公司工作，并弄清楚如何在那里工作。
Do you have hope for AI helping with some of the video generation, some of the world generation, or some of the open-world assistance in generating the world?
您是否希望人工智能帮助某些视频生成、某些世界生成或某些开放世界帮助生成世界？
Yes, limited.
是的，有限。
2:42:45 Absolutely, if used correctly, it will be a great tool.
当然，如果使用得当，它将是一个很棒的工具。
If used incorrectly, it will lead to loads of generic stuff.
如果使用不当，将会导致大量通用的东西。
You know, I’ve been in games for 29 years, and all the time, the piece of tech that’s going to make making games much easier and much cheaper is about to turn up, and all that’s happened is the games have got much better and way more expensive.
你知道，我从事游戏行业已有 29 年了，一直以来，一项能让游戏变得更容易、更便宜的技术即将出现，而所发生的只是游戏变得更好、更贵。
So I’m always nervous about saying, “Finally, we have that bit of tech that makes our lives easier,” but it looks as if it might be able to do that when you use it in the right way.
所以我总是很紧张地说：“我们终于拥有了让我们的生活变得更轻松的技术，”但看起来如果你以正确的方式使用它，它可能能够做到这一点。
If you use it to try and substitute for creativity, it’s going to be really generic.
如果你用它来尝试替代创造力，它就会非常通用。
A big, ridiculous question: What’s the meaning of this whole thing we have going on here, of life, of existence?
一个大而荒谬的问题：我们在这里发生的整件事、生命、存在的意义是什么？
2:43:19 Why are we here?
我们为什么在这里？
To watch the universe.
去观察宇宙。
2:43:29 The easiest plausible answer is we are designed by the universe to watch itself and to comment on it in interesting ways.
最简单合理的答案是，我们是被宇宙设计来观察自身并以有趣的方式评论它的。
Consistently more and more interesting ways.
不断有越来越有趣的方式。
2:43:39 What role does love play as part of that?
爱在其中扮演什么角色？
It’s the only thing that makes it possibly worth doing.
这是唯一值得做的事情。
2:43:46 Everything else, everything material, is irrelevant.
其他一切，一切物质的，都是无关紧要的。
So the only things of value are these immaterial things.
因此，唯一有价值的东西就是这些非物质的东西。
You know, I do think metaphysics always trumps physics for me.
你知道，我确实认为形而上学对我来说总是胜过物理学。
Well, Dan, from the bottom of my heart, speaking of love, thank you.
嗯，丹，从心底讲起爱，谢谢你。
What a pleasure.
多么高兴啊。
2:44:07 Thank you, man.
谢谢你，伙计。
Thank you for everything you’ve created in this world.
感谢你在这个世界上创造的一切。
2:44:09 Me and millions of diehard fans of your games are forever grateful.
我和数百万你们游戏的铁杆粉丝将永远感激不已。
I know there’s a lot of people that would like to say thank you to you.
我知道有很多人想对你说声谢谢。
Just to be clear, because I always like to make this very clear…
只是为了清楚起见，因为我总是喜欢说得很清楚......
2:44:19 …It was never me.
……从来都不是我。
It was always me sat alongside people with actual real talent who did amazing things.
我总是坐在那些真正有才华、做出了惊人事情的人旁边。
Well, I hope you keep being self-critical and creating awesome stuff in the world.
好吧，我希望你继续自我批评，并在世界上创造出很棒的东西。
2:44:28 And we can’t wait to keep exploring the worlds you create.
我们迫不及待地想继续探索您创造的世界。
Thank you so much for talking today, brother.
非常感谢你今天的发言，兄弟。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
2:44:41 What a privilege.
多么荣幸啊。
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Dan Houser.
感谢您收听与丹·豪瑟的对话。
2:44:43 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, get feedback, and so on.
为了支持这个播客，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商，您还可以在其中找到联系我、提出问题、获取反馈等的链接。
And now let me leave you with some words from Ernest Hemingway, one of Dan’s and my favorite writers: “The world breaks everyone, and afterward, many are strong at the broken places.” Thank you for listening.
现在，让我向你们送上欧内斯特·海明威（Ernest Hemingway）的几句话，他是丹的也是我最喜欢的作家之一：“这个世界让每个人都心碎，而之后，许多人在破碎的地方变得坚强。”感谢您的聆听。
I hope to see you next time.
我希望下次能见到你。
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