96: Pinned by History - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #96 | March 13, 1998 96: Pinned by History Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 96 集 | 1998 年 3 月 13 日 96：被历史钉住注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass 102557.
序言艾拉玻璃 102557。
The number had been on his left arm since the war, since the concentration camps, his three years in Auschwitz.
自从战争、集中营、奥斯维辛集中营的三年以来，这个号码就一直戴在他的左臂上。
And one day, a couple of years ago, living in New York City, it occurred to him, 102557, the number given to him by the Nazis, he could play the lottery with it.
几年前的一天，住在纽约的他突然想到，102557，纳粹给他的号码，他可以用它来玩彩票。
Well, yeah, when it came to lottery, I sometimes played the number, but I gave it up, because it came to my mind, I said I shouldn't do this.
嗯，是的，说到彩票，我有时会玩这个号码，但我放弃了，因为我想到了，我说我不应该这样做。
No. Ira Glass But you decided you shouldn't do it.
不。 Ira Glass 但你决定不应该这样做。
Because I think that I should not remind myself of this whole thing.
因为我认为我不应该提醒自己这整件事。
When something terrible happens to you, in the moment of crisis, it's rare that you can meditate over what it means.
当可怕的事情发生在你身上时，在危机时刻，你很少能够思考它意味着什么。
When Jan Tomare was in the concentration camps, when he was sent to work in the German coal mines, when he was selected for experimental surgery by the Germans, he didn't have bad dreams then, he says.
当扬·托马雷在集中营时，当他被派往德国煤矿工作时，当他被德国人选中进行实验性手术时，他说，那时他并没有做噩梦。
No. You were just looking to get food and stuff like that.
不，你只是想得到食物之类的东西。
You're just looking at how it's going to be, what happened in the morning.
你只是想看看事情会怎样，早上发生了什么。
And as I am getting older, I'm more and more haunted by my past and the fate of my family, crying almost every night.
随着年龄的增长，我越来越被自己的过去和家人的命运所困扰，几乎每天晚上都会哭泣。
I mean, I can't do anything about it anymore.
我的意思是，我已经无能为力了。
So I try to be busy.
所以我努力让自己忙碌起来。
I try to read book.
我尝试看书。
I try to make anything, to do anything, to forget.
I try to make anything, to do anything, to forget.
I read papers.
我读报纸。
I read books.
我读书。
I read everything.
我读了所有内容。
About the present, not about the past, you mean.
你的意思是关于现在，而不是关于过去。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass What memories come back?
艾拉·格拉斯 什么记忆回来了？
Sometimes, Jan says, he'll remember a holiday meal, some small happy memory of his family, who died in the gas chambers.
简说，有时候，他会记得一顿节日大餐，以及关于死在毒气室里的家人的一些小小的幸福回忆。
But that's rare.
但这种情况很少见。
Mostly it's the bad moments which come back.
大多数情况下，糟糕的时刻又回来了。
And among those, the one he returns to more than any other moment, is the day in May of 1942, when his family was rounded up by the Germans and arrested.
其中，他最常回忆起的时刻是 1942 年 5 月的那一天，当时他的家人被德国人围捕并被捕。
The whole thing was, back then, we were all taken to this place, [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE].
整个事情是，当时，我们都被带到了这个地方，[难以理解的短语]。
And this came, and they took my family, my little brother.
结果来了，他们带走了我的家人，我的弟弟。
He was a little genius.
他是个小天才。
And my sister.
还有我的妹妹。
And they put them in those big commercial wagons, where they used to ship cows and then everything.
他们把它们放在那些大型商业货车里，用来运送牛和其他东西。
It was the last time he saw his sister, his little brother, his mother, his stepfather, a moment that, no matter how many times you look at it, never makes sense.
这是他最后一次见到他的妹妹、他的弟弟、他的母亲、他的继父，那一刻，无论你看多少遍，都毫无意义。
One minute, your life is one thing, small, private, the next it's something else, thrown about by forces so much bigger.
前一分钟，你的生活是一回事，很小，很私密，下一分钟，你的生活就变成了另一回事，被更大的力量所左右。
You're seized from your normal and pinned in the beam of history.
你脱离了常态，被钉在历史的梁柱上。
From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 和国际公共广播电台的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, Pinned in History, stories of people who were lifted out of everyday life, thrown into much bigger events, and how that made sense of what they did years after the fact.
今天，在我们的节目《钉在历史中》中，讲述了那些脱离日常生活、投入更大事件的人们的故事，以及如何理解他们在事后多年所做的事情。
Act One, Book of Job, a man who betrayed his friends, and then betrayed the people who he betrayed his friends for.
《约伯记》第一幕，一个人背叛了他的朋友，然后又背叛了那些他为之背叛朋友的人。
Act Two, God of War, how a guy with one year of psychology graduate school got put in a position to decide who would stay at the front lines in Vietnam and who could go home, and what he did with that power, a power he never wanted, and what he makes of all of it now.
第二幕，《战神》，一个读了一年心理学研究生的人如何能够决定谁留在越南前线、谁可以回家，以及他用这种权力做了什么，一种他从未想要的权力，以及他现在如何利用这一切。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One.
第一幕。
So it's one thing if your life is thrown about by forces beyond your control.
因此，如果你的生活被你无法控制的力量所左右，那是一回事。
It's another if you go out of your way to insert yourself into history, and hurt people, and ruin other people's lives as part of that.
如果你不遗余力地将自己融入历史，并伤害他人，并毁掉他人的生活，那就是另一回事了。
How do you make sense of events for which you only have yourself to blame?
你如何理解那些只能归咎于你自己的事件？
Scott Carrier has this first story.
斯科特·卡里尔有第一个故事。
February 17, 1957 was the worst day of Harvey Matusow's life.
1957 年 2 月 17 日是哈维·马图索一生中最糟糕的一天。
At 2:30 in the morning, his mother called to say that his father had died.
At 2:30 in the morning, his mother called to say that his father had died.
At 8:30, his boss called to tell him not to come into work, that he was fired.
8点30分，他的老板打电话告诉他不要上班，他被解雇了。
At 11:30, his wife called from California, saying she was close to Mexico and that she wanted a divorce.
11点30分，他的妻子从加州打来电话，说她离墨西哥很近，想离婚。
Then at 2:30 in the afternoon, Harvey's lawyer called to say that the Circuit Court of Appeals in New York had turned down his appeal, and that he'd be going to a federal penitentiary for five years.
下午2点30分，哈维的律师打电话说，纽约巡回上诉法院驳回了他的上诉，他将被送往联邦监狱服刑五年。
You know what Harvey did?
你知道哈维做了什么吗？
Harvey I laughed.
哈维我笑了。
I couldn't stop laughing.
我忍不住笑了。
People were coming to my mother's house to pay respects, to get ready for the funeral, and there I was laughing.
人们来到我母亲家吊唁，准备葬礼，而我却在笑。
And a friend of mine said, read the book of Job.
我的一个朋友说，读《约伯记》吧。
And I read the book of Job that night and I continued to laugh.
And I read the book of Job that night and I continued to laugh.
And I took on the name Job that day.
那天我取了约伯这个名字。
And I've identified with him ever since.
从那时起我就认同他了。
Job Matusow, born a Jew in the Bronx.
乔布·马图索 (Job Matusow) 出生于布朗克斯，是一名犹太人。
Job Matusow, ready to die a Mormon in Glenwood, Utah.
乔布·马图索 (Job Matusow)，准备在犹他州格伦伍德以摩门教徒身份死去。
Job Matusow, liberator of Europe.
乔布·马图索，欧洲的解放者。
Job Matusow, Communist.
乔布·马图索，共产党员。
Job Matusow, who turned and became a paid informant against the Communists during the McCarthy era.
乔布·马图索 (Job Matusow) 在麦卡锡时代转而成为一名反对共产党的付费线人。
Job Matusow, who turned again and said he'd lied and made it up, and that the Justice Department knew he was lying and, in fact, encouraged it.
乔布·马图索（Job Matusow）再次转身说他撒了谎并编造出来，司法部知道他在撒谎，而且事实上还鼓励他这样做。
Job Matusow, the most hated man in America.
乔布·马图索（Job Matusow），美国最令人憎恨的人。
Job Matusow, Cockyboo the clown.
乔布·马图索（Job Matusow），小丑科基布（Cockyboo）。
Job Matusow, who's been married 10 times to nine different women and is still one of the loneliest old men you'd ever want to meet.
乔布·马图索 (Job Matusow) 与 9 个不同的女人结过 10 次婚，但他仍然是你想见到的最孤独的老人之一。
Job Matusow, manager, program director, and creator of SCAT-TV, the first and only public access station in central Utah.
Job Matusow，SCAT-TV 的经理、节目总监和创始人，SCAT-TV 是犹他州中部第一家也是唯一一家公共广播电台。
Job Matusow, con man who tells you upfront that he's a con man and then cons you.
乔布·马图索（Job Matusow），一个骗子，他预先告诉你他是个骗子，然后欺骗你。
Job Matusow, coyote of all coyotes.
乔布·马图索，土狼中的土狼。
I represented the most anarchistic of anarchists.
我代表了最无政府主义的无政府主义者。
I turned on the Communists and then I turned on the extreme right, and put a plague on both their houses.
I turned on the Communists and then I turned on the extreme right, and put a plague on both their houses.
The trick with a coyote is to not take sides.
对付土狼的诀窍是不要偏袒任何一方。
The trick is to see all things as being equal.
诀窍在于将所有事物视为平等。
This means accepting whatever the coyote says as being true, but it also means you accept the exact opposite of whatever the coyote says as being true as well.
这意味着接受郊狼所说的一切都是真实的，但这也意味着你也接受与郊狼所说的完全相反的事实。
Yeah, we have a song in our Magic Mouse Children's Theatre, which goes like, [SINGING] when I spend the whole day cooking and it burns when I'm not looking, I just smile and shrug my shoulders, that's the way it is.
是的，我们的魔鼠儿童剧院有一首歌曲，它是这样的，[唱歌]当我整天做饭时，当我不看的时候它会燃烧，我只是微笑着耸耸肩膀，就是这样。
That's the way it is, by golly.
就是这样，天哪。
That's the way it is, by golly.
就是这样，天哪。
That's the way it is, by golly.
就是这样，天哪。
That's the way it is.
事情就是这样。
[END SINGING].
[结束歌唱]。
And that's the way it is.
事情就是这样。
This is the way Job tells the story.
这就是约伯讲述故事的方式。
This is the way he explains the events that led up to the worst day of his life and his decision to call himself Job, like from the Bible.
这就是他解释导致他一生中最糟糕的一天的事件以及他决定称自己为约伯的方式，就像圣经中的那样。
First he was a kid on the streets in the Bronx, running bets for Phil the bookie, and delivering bribes to policemen.
起初，他还是个孩子，在布朗克斯街头为赌徒菲尔下注，并向警察行贿。
Then his brother went off to the Second World War and got shot down over Germany.
Then his brother went off to the Second World War and got shot down over Germany.
Then Job enlisted, and managed through a miracle to find his brother's unmarked grave in Nuremberg.
然后约伯应征入伍，并奇迹般地在纽伦堡找到了他兄弟的无名坟墓。
Then he helped liberate Europe by digging bodies from out of the rubble and hanging out in coffee shops with French intellectuals.
然后，他从废墟中挖掘尸体，并与法国知识分子一起在咖啡馆里闲逛，帮助解放了欧洲。
When I joined the Communist Party, it was as a result of the experiences with Communists in Europe in World War II.
当我加入共产党时，是由于二战期间欧洲共产党人的经历。
I found the Communists were the only substantial group of people who effectively stood up to Hitler and fought him effectively in occupied Europe.
我发现共产党人是唯一有效地反抗希特勒并在被占领的欧洲有效地与他作战的重要群体。
And wherever I went and liberated Europe, and I was part of the infantry that liberated Europe, I found Communists who were romantic to me, who were real.
无论我去哪里解放欧洲，我都是解放欧洲的步兵的一员，我发现对我来说浪漫、真实的共产党人。
In the Ernest Hemingway sense, the romance of Communism.
In the Ernest Hemingway sense, the romance of Communism.
And you hear songs like, [SINGING "VIVA LA QUINTA BRIGADE"].
你会听到诸如[唱“VIVA LA QUINTA BRIGADE”]之类的歌曲。
Viva the 15th brigade.
第15旅万岁。
They stood up to Franco.
他们奋起反抗佛朗哥。
[SINGING "VIVA LA QUINTA BRIGADE"].
[唱“VIVA LA QUINTA BRIGADE”]。
So it wasn't difficult for me to become a Communist.
So it wasn't difficult for me to become a Communist.
Job joined the party in New York City in 1946.
1946 年，乔布斯在纽约入党。
By 1947, he was a full-time employee, operating the switchboard and screening calls at the national headquarters during the day, and organizing youth meetings at night.
1947年，他成为一名全职员工，白天在国家总部操作总机和筛选电话，晚上组织青年会议。
He says he had the honor to raise the first ever Chinese Communist flag flown in the United States.
He says he had the honor to raise the first ever Chinese Communist flag flown in the United States.
He says he carried Paul Robeson, Jr., under a blanket in the back seat of his car into the riots of Peekskill.
He says he carried Paul Robeson, Jr., under a blanket in the back seat of his car into the riots of Peekskill.
He was, he says, deeply involved in these struggles.
他说，他深入参与了这些斗争。
In the late '40s, it was a radical thing to be a Communist.
在 40 年代末，成为一名共产党员是一件激进的事情。
It was the beginning of the Cold War, the beginning of the Evil Empire.
It was the beginning of the Cold War, the beginning of the Evil Empire.
Lots of people, in fact most people, believed that a war with the Soviet Union was inevitable.
很多人，实际上是大多数人，相信与苏联的战争是不可避免的。
Then, in 1950, we did go to war with Communists in Korea.
Then, in 1950, we did go to war with Communists in Korea.
And at that point, it was not radical to be a Communist, it was impossible to be a Communist.
那时，成为一名共产党员并不是激进的，而是不可能成为一名共产党员的。
Being a Communist meant losing your job and being publicly vilified, maybe even going to jail.
Being a Communist meant losing your job and being publicly vilified, maybe even going to jail.
Job, being more coyote than Communist, saw that things were getting kind of hot.
乔布斯更像是土狼，而不是共产主义者，他看到事情变得有些激烈。
He says when things get hot, he finds another place to play, at least that's how he tells the story sometimes.
He says when things get hot, he finds another place to play, at least that's how he tells the story sometimes.
Other times, he tells it like this.
其他时候，他也这样讲。
The Communist Party to me became very phony, phony as a $3 bill.
The Communist Party to me became very phony, phony as a $3 bill.
I found it hypocritical and dishonest, and maybe because I was too romantic when I entered into it.
我觉得它虚伪且不诚实，也许是因为我进入它时太浪漫了。
And I figured the Cold War was getting crazier, the prosecutions, the persecutions were getting crazier, so I called the FBI.
And I figured the Cold War was getting crazier, the prosecutions, the persecutions were getting crazier, so I called the FBI.
I dialed [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 23500.
我拨打了[无法辨认]23500。
And I said, hi, my name is Harvey Matusow, I'm a member of the Communist Party, I want to talk to you.
And I said, hi, my name is Harvey Matusow, I'm a member of the Communist Party, I want to talk to you.
And that was the extent of the conversation, and we made a time to meet.
这就是谈话的范围，我们约了时间见面。
So the government wanted me to be a witness.
所以政府要我当证人。
And I met at a rendezvous point on the East River Drive, real clandestine.
我在东河大道的一个集合点见面，真正的秘密。
And this limousine pulls up.
这辆豪华轿车停了下来。
This guy gets out, introduces himself as Roy Cohn.
这家伙下了车，介绍自己是罗伊·科恩。
I get in the back of the limo, and we take off.
我坐进豪华轿车的后座，然后我们就出发了。
And we talk in the car.
我们在车里聊天。
And he's interviewing me.
他正在采访我。
And this is a guy who grew up in my neighborhood in the Bronx.
这是一个在我的布朗克斯区长大的人。
We have a lot in common.
我们有很多共同点。
We're the same age.
我们同龄。
We were born a few months apart.
我们出生的时间相差几个月。
And we hit it off real well.
我们一拍即合。
And while we were getting ready to prepare me for my testimony in the case, I used to go out and party with Roy Cohn.
当我们准备让我为该案作证时，我常常和罗伊·科恩一起出去聚会。
We'd go to the Stork Club.
我们会去鹳俱乐部。
We'd go to 21.
我们去21。
We'd party.
我们会聚会。
You know, how the young guys in their mid-20s go out and party.
你知道，20多岁的年轻人是如何出去聚会的。
Job became a paid political informer, which was also a radical thing to be.
乔布斯成为一名有偿政治线人，这也是一件激进的事情。
At that time in the early '50s, the exploits of FBI informers were celebrated in motion pictures, in television serials, in books, and in magazine articles.
在 20 世纪 50 年代初，联邦调查局线人的功绩在电影、电视连续剧、书籍和杂志文章中得到了歌颂。
They were portrayed as brave heroes who risked their lives as Communists, only to emerge as true patriots, indispensable, as J.
他们被描绘成勇敢的英雄，作为共产党人冒着生命危险，最终成为真正的爱国者，不可或缺，正如 J.
Edgar Hoover once said, to the American way of life.
埃德加·胡佛曾经说过，要美国式的生活方式。
And it was a lucrative profession.
这是一个利润丰厚的职业。
The most charismatic informers supplemented their incomes with generous lecture fees, royalties from bestselling books, as well as radio, television, and film rights to their harrowing exposes of the red menace.
最有魅力的告密者通过慷慨的讲座费、畅销书的版税以及广播、电视和电影版权来补充他们对红色威胁的悲惨揭露。
Though only 26 years old, Job met with immediate success.
约伯虽然只有26岁，却立即取得了成功。
In his first appearance on the witness stand in 1951, at a hearing of the House Committee on Un-American Activities, he was billed as an authority on the Communist conspiracy to penetrate the youth of America.
1951 年，在众议院非美活动委员会听证会上，他首次出现在证人席上，被宣传为共产主义渗透美国青年阴谋的权威。
Overnight, his name was in the headlines.
一夜之间，他的名字登上了头条新闻。
"Witness Bears Plot to Infiltrate the Boy Scouts." "Secret FBI Man Reveals 3,500 Students Recruited Here for Red Fifth Column." "Communists Use Sex to Lure Members." Job was a hit, a rising star.
“目击熊密谋渗透童子军。” “联邦调查局秘密人员透露，红色第五纵队在这里招募了 3,500 名学生。” “共产党利用性来引诱成员。”乔布斯很受欢迎，是一颗冉冉升起的新星。
I play-acted.
我演戏。
I made up a game.
我编了一个游戏。
I made up a story.
我编了一个故事。
I did something nobody else did.
我做了别人没有做过的事。
All these other witnesses were old men and old women.
所有其他目击者都是老男人和老女人。
And here I come on, a war veteran from two wars that he enlisted in in his 20s, and is talking about Communism and youth.
我来了，一位20多岁参加过两场战争的退伍军人，正在谈论共产主义和青年。
And all these other guys were in the 50s and 60s.
所有其他人都是 50 年代和 60 年代。
I was a breath of fresh air for them.
我对他们来说是一股新鲜空气。
Job testified in front of the House Committee on Un-American Activities, the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, the Government Operations Committee, the Subversive Activities Control Board hearings, and in two criminal prosecutions for the Justice Department, one of which was the famous First Amendment case against union organizer, Clinton Jencks.
乔布斯在众议院非美活动委员会、参议院内部安全小组委员会、政府运作委员会、颠覆活动控制委员会听证会上作证，并在司法部的两起刑事诉讼中作证，其中一起是著名的针对工会组织者克林顿·詹克斯的第一修正案案件。
Job named hundreds of people as Communists or Communist sympathizers, many of whom had been his friends.
约伯将数百人称为共产党员或共产党同情者，其中许多人是他的朋友。
When he ran out of people to name, he started making up stories, anything that would make a good performance, anything that would make it in the papers.
当他找不到人的名字时，他开始编造故事，任何可以做出精彩表演的东西，任何可以登上报纸的东西。
For instance, on one of his lecture tours, he told a group of high school students in Pocatello, Idaho that he'd been sent by a Czechoslovakian delegation to New Mexico, where he set up a system of espionage at Los Alamos.
例如，在一次巡回演讲中，他告诉爱达荷州波卡特洛的一群高中生，捷克斯洛伐克代表团派他前往新墨西哥州，在那里他在洛斯阿拉莫斯建立了一个间谍系统。
He also said that the Soviet Union has scheduled 1961 as the year it would take over the United States.
他还表示，苏联已将1961年定为接管美国的年份。
The press loved him, and he loved the press.
媒体爱他，他也爱媒体。
Here I was meeting with people, editors of the Hearst newspapers, making up stories with them.
在这里，我会见了一些人，赫斯特报纸的编辑，和他们一起编造故事。
I mean, I was going out and having dinner every night with the columnist Walter Winchell, and he fell in love with me.
我的意思是，我每晚都出去和专栏作家沃尔特·温切尔一起吃晚饭，他爱上了我。
So I'd go out at his old Cadillac convertible, and he had a police radio-- and he was the best known journalist in the country at the time-- and we'd go chase police calls.
所以我会开着他的旧凯迪拉克敞篷车出去，他有一台警用收音机——他是当时全国最著名的记者——我们会去追警察的电话。
He'd listen to the police calls and he'd show up, and he wore a gun.
他会听警察的电话并出现，而且他戴着枪。
The guy was a madman, and I'd hang out with him.
那家伙是个疯子，我会和他一起出去玩。
And I'd hang out every night.
我每天晚上都会出去玩。
I'd go to Toot Shor's bar and hang out with all the celebrities from Hollywood and big shot, big [BLEEP], you know.
我会去 Toot Shor 的酒吧，和所有来自好莱坞的名人和大人物、大人物 [BLEEP] 一起出去玩，你知道。
It was a whole different dance, a whole different ballgame.
这是一场完全不同的舞蹈，一场完全不同的球赛。
Where I fabricated stories is like, I said-- because I belonged to the American Newspaper Guild and was involved in organizing the union-- that the Sunday New York Times I said had 126 Communists working for it, when they only had either 78 or 96 employees.
Where I fabricated stories is like, I said-- because I belonged to the American Newspaper Guild and was involved in organizing the union-- that the Sunday New York Times I said had 126 Communists working for it, when they only had either 78 or 96 employees.
At this point, I forget which figure.
此时我已经忘记是哪个数字了。
And nobody, not even the New York Times , ever questioned that.
没有人，甚至《纽约时报》，曾质疑过这一点。
Did you know that it was going to be on the news that night?
你知道那天晚上这件事会出现在新闻中吗？
Oh, yeah, every night for weeks.
哦，是的，连续几个星期每天晚上。
And I'd turn on the box and we'd watch the news, and there I was, day after day, freaking out Americans.
我打开电视，我们一起看新闻，日复一日，我把美国人吓坏了。
Oh, I was very conscious of it, yeah.
哦，我很清楚这一点，是的。
I knew I had the whole nation.
我知道我拥有整个国家。
I was in everybody's living room.
我在每个人的客厅里。
It's a very strong feeling.
这是一种非常强烈的感觉。
In 1952, after Job was already a hotshot paid political informer, he walked into Senator Joseph McCarthy's office in Washington and offered his services in McCarthy's reelection campaign.
1952年，乔布斯已经成为一名炙手可热的受薪政治线人，他走进参议员约瑟夫·麦卡锡在华盛顿的办公室，为麦卡锡的连任竞选提供服务。
He became, he says, close friends with McCarthy.
他说，他与麦卡锡成为了亲密的朋友。
He says he even delivered 70% of McCarthy's campaign speeches when the senator was in the hospital for alcohol-related illnesses.
他说，麦卡锡 70% 的竞选演讲中，他甚至是在麦卡锡因酒精相关疾病住院期间发表的。
Through McCarthy, Job met the heiress, Arvilla Bentley, one of McCarthy's biggest financial supporters.
通过麦卡锡，乔布认识了麦卡锡最大的财务支持者之一的女继承人阿维拉·本特利。
She became Job's second wife.
她成为约伯的第二任妻子。
It was unreal, married a woman who had millions of dollars and she was a party giver and lived on fancy Foxhall Road.
这是不真实的，嫁给了一个拥有数百万美元的女人，她是一个派对举办者，住在豪华的福克斯霍尔路。
The house is now the German ambassador's residence.
该房屋现在是德国大使官邸。
And here I came from the streets of the Bronx running bets for Phil the bookie, and I'm throwing dinner parties in Washington.
我来自布朗克斯的街道，为博彩公司菲尔进行投注，我正在华盛顿举办晚宴。
My next door neighbor is Governor Averell Harriman, or ambassador Harriman at that time.
我的隔壁邻居是州长艾夫里尔·哈里曼，或者当时的大使哈里曼。
And when he moved out to go back to New York to become governor, Secretary of Treasury Humphrey moved in next door.
当他搬回纽约担任州长时，财政部长汉弗莱搬到了隔壁。
He'd be working the garden, and I'd be out talking to the secretary of treasury because he was my neighbor.
他会在花园里干活，而我会出去与财政部长交谈，因为他是我的邻居。
It wasn't a real world.
这不是一个真实的世界。
It was so surreal, it was like a Salvador Dali painting.
它是如此超现实，就像萨尔瓦多·达利的画作。
The only thing it missed were the melting clocks rolling off the rocks and the furniture.
它唯一错过的是从岩石和家具上滚落的融化的钟表。
We're in Job's car, driving down the highway in central Utah.
我们坐在乔布的车里，沿着犹他州中部的高速公路行驶。
His car's a 1970 Cadillac Brougham DeVille, of a color I've studied but am unable to discern, tarnished gold or tarnished silver, or both.
他的车是一辆 1970 款凯迪拉克 Brougham DeVille，颜色我研究过但无法辨别，是失去光泽的金色还是失去光泽的银色，或者两者兼而有之。
He got the car, he says, by getting down on his knees and praying.
他说，他是通过跪下祈祷才得到这辆车的。
He asked God to give him a car, and God gave him this one.
他请求上帝给他一辆车，上帝给了他这辆车。
I've lived in London, in Paris, in New York, Melbourne, and Sydney, in Berlin, in San Francisco, in Boston, and you name it and I've lived there.
我住过伦敦、巴黎、纽约、墨尔本、悉尼、柏林、旧金山、波士顿，凡是你能想到的地方，我都住过。
But none of it beats what I got here.
但没有一个比我在这里得到的更好。
Two years ago, Job came to the small farming community of Glenwood, Utah, in an old school bus loaded with consumer-grade video production equipment.
Two years ago, Job came to the small farming community of Glenwood, Utah, in an old school bus loaded with consumer-grade video production equipment.
And in short order, he started Six Counties Access Television, a public access station that shows high school band practice, the local church choir doing "The Messiah," drill team competitions, and also the Magic Mouse Magazine, Job's nonviolent kid show.
And in short order, he started Six Counties Access Television, a public access station that shows high school band practice, the local church choir doing "The Messiah," drill team competitions, and also the Magic Mouse Magazine, Job's nonviolent kid show.
He has more than 100 hours of Magic Mouse Magazine on tape.
他有超过 100 小时的《Magic Mouse Magazine》磁带。
Each show is hosted by Job playing Cockyboo the clown.
每场节目均由乔布主持，扮演小丑 Cockyboo。
Right now, we're in the car, driving around, changing the Magic Mouse tapes at various cable downlink stations scattered around the countryside.
现在，我们坐在车里，四处行驶，在散布于乡村的各个电缆下行站更换魔术鼠标磁带。
On the seat between us are two little dogs, tiny dogs, each so small I can close my thumb and index finger around their necks.
我们中间的座位上有两只小狗，很小的狗，每只都那么小，我可以用拇指和食指掐住它们的脖子。
And one dog is on top and humping the other dog, and she's looking up at me with big, woeful eyes, all the woe of [UNINTELLIGIBLE] conception.
一只狗在上面，驼着另一只狗，她用大而悲伤的眼睛看着我，所有的痛苦都是[无法理解]受孕的。
Job is driving the car, but he has some back trouble and he can't really sit up high enough to see over the dashboard or the long hood of the car.
Job is driving the car, but he has some back trouble and he can't really sit up high enough to see over the dashboard or the long hood of the car.
And then he has the car in cruise control, so his feet are way back from the pedals, nowhere near the pedals, and it's like he's just acting like he's driving, like the car is floating down the road on a cloud.
And then he has the car in cruise control, so his feet are way back from the pedals, nowhere near the pedals, and it's like he's just acting like he's driving, like the car is floating down the road on a cloud.
Job tells me he was responsible for the creation of the Freedom of Information Act.
乔布斯告诉我，他负责制定《信息自由法》。
He tells me he was the person who started the myth about getting high off smoking banana peels.
他告诉我，他是那个通过吸香蕉皮来获得快感的神话的始作俑者。
He tells me he was the developer of the stringless Yo-Yo, which, he says, in 1957, was the second-best selling children's toy in America, right behind the hula hoop.
He tells me he was the developer of the stringless Yo-Yo, which, he says, in 1957, was the second-best selling children's toy in America, right behind the hula hoop.
He tells me that there's more creative talent in these small Utah towns than anywhere else he's been in the world.
他告诉我，犹他州的这些小镇里的创意人才比他去过的世界上任何地方都多。
There's more creative talent in this valley, per capita, than any place I have ever been on the planet Earth, anywhere.
按人均计算，这个山谷里的创意人才比我去过的地球上任何地方都多。
And it's got an innocence about it, which makes it beautiful for me.
它有一种纯真，这使得它对我来说很美丽。
It's not jaundiced, as Hollywood and New York is jaundiced.
它并不像好莱坞和纽约那样有偏见。
We stop by a mailbox in front of a small white house.
我们在一座小白宫前的一个邮箱前停下来。
The mailbox says "Mike," just Mike.
邮箱上写着“迈克”，就是迈克。
Mike comes out of the house and gets in the backseat, wearing a balaclava ski mask pulled down over his face, like we're going to rob a bank or something.
Mike comes out of the house and gets in the backseat, wearing a balaclava ski mask pulled down over his face, like we're going to rob a bank or something.
We stay in the car for about an hour, and Mike doesn't take the mask off.
我们在车里呆了大约一个小时，迈克没有摘下口罩。
Mike is the television station's technical engineer, and Job's best friend.
迈克是电视台的技术工程师，也是乔布斯最好的朋友。
He's also the opposite of Job in every way.
他在各方面也与约伯相反。
Job likes to talk, and he likes to talk about himself and how he fits into the bigger picture of things.
约伯喜欢说话，他喜欢谈论自己以及他如何适应事物的大局。
Mike almost never talks, and when he does, he talks about flywheels and edit functions and videocassette recorders.
迈克几乎从不说话，当他说话时，他会谈论飞轮、编辑功能和录像机。
Job likes to be seen and known.
约伯喜欢被人看见和认识。
Mike hides behind his balaclava.
迈克躲在巴拉克拉法帽后面。
Job has dogs, but he's actually much more like a cat himself.
乔布养了狗，但他自己其实更像一只猫。
Mike has a cat, but he's actually much more like a dog himself.
迈克有一只猫，但实际上他自己更像一只狗。
And so on.
等等。
The best way I can describe Mike to somebody is that he couldn't tell a lie if he wanted to.
我可以向某人描述迈克的最好方式是，如果他愿意，他就不能说谎。
And I don't meet many people of that pure a spirit much in my life, very rare.
而我一生中遇到如此纯粹精神的人并不多，非常罕见。
And when I meet somebody with that pure a spirit, I want to nurture it and enjoy it and be around it, because it'll never sell you short.
当我遇到一个拥有这种纯粹精神的人时，我想培养它、享受它并围绕它，因为它永远不会辜负你的期望。
It'll never be dishonest with you.
它永远不会对你不诚实。
So at one time, you were associating and hanging out with some of the most important people of the century.
因此，有一次，您与本世纪一些最重要的人物交往并闲逛。
And now you live in Glenwood, Utah, and you hang out with Mike.
现在你住在犹他州格伦伍德，和迈克一起出去玩。
Hang out with my friend, Mike.
和我的朋友迈克一起出去玩。
And he's very special.
他很特别。
By 1954, the whole witch hunt of Communists was beginning to fall apart.
到了 1954 年，整个共产党的政治迫害开始瓦解。
Edward R.
爱德华·R。
Murrow broadcast his famous expose on Joe McCarthy, and then McCarthy himself was investigated in the Army-McCarthy hearings.
默罗广播了他对乔·麦卡锡的著名揭露，然后麦卡锡本人在陆军-麦卡锡听证会上受到了调查。
McCarthy responded in part by turning up the heat on Job, asking him to supply names of writers and journalists who were Commies or sympathizers.
McCarthy responded in part by turning up the heat on Job, asking him to supply names of writers and journalists who were Commies or sympathizers.
But by this time, Job was having second thoughts.
但此时，约伯开始改变主意。
Being a paid informer had been like being a Communist, in that it had been fun for a while, but then it got scary.
成为一名付费线人就像成为一名共产党员一样，有一段时间很有趣，但后来就变得可怕了。
He decided it was maybe time to come clean.
他决定也许是时候坦白了。
This is when job recognized Jesus Christ as his personal saviour, and was baptized into the Mormon church.
就在这时，约伯承认耶稣基督为他个人的救世主，并受洗加入摩门教。
I took to it like a duck to water.
我对它如鱼得水。
Are you kidding?
你在开玩笑吧？
The Mormon church?
摩门教教堂？
Wow.
哇。
Everything I wanted in my life in this gospel, in this lifestyle, and in the way the people were, in the caring for each other.
我生命中想要的一切都在这福音、这种生活方式、人们的生活方式、互相关心中。
And then my conscience really got to bum me out.
然后我的良心真的让我很沮丧。
Here I was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and I was living with all these misdeeds.
在这里，我奉耶稣基督的名受了洗，而我却生活在所有这些罪恶之中。
And I finally said I gotta stop the bull [BLEEP], and it's not blacklisting was my business.
我最后说我必须阻止公牛[BLEEP]，而且列入黑名单不是我的事。
But I was a false witness upfront, all the way.
但我自始至终都是一个假证人。
Let it go.
放手吧。
According to a friend of mine who is a wise man, and also a good Mormon, there are three things you need to do in order to repent, in order to achieve forgiveness.
据我的一位智者朋友说，他是一位智者，也是一位善良的摩门教徒，你需要做三件事才能悔改，才能获得宽恕。
The first is, you have to try not to do the bad thing again.
首先，你必须尽量不再做坏事。
The second is, you have to try to compensate your victims.
第二是，你必须尽力补偿你的受害者。
The third is, you have to find some kind of peace with yourself.
第三，你必须找到某种内心的平静。
Of these three, the third is by far the most difficult to achieve.
在这三者中，第三者是迄今为止最难实现的。
Job started with the first two things by visiting and apologizing to some of the people he'd named in front of the committees, people whose lives he'd ruined.
约伯从前两件事开始，他拜访了一些他在委员会面前点名的人，并向他们道歉，这些人的生活被他毁了。
He told them that he wanted to try to pay them back by writing a book about how he lied and made things up, a book that would hopefully bring down the McCarthy era once and for all.
他告诉他们，他想通过写一本关于他如何撒谎和捏造事实的书来回报他们，这本书有望一劳永逸地推翻麦卡锡时代。
Then he asked each of them if they might want to put up some money to help get the book published.
然后他问他们是否愿意出一些钱来帮助这本书出版。
It felt real good to go to people and ask forgiveness.
走到人们面前请求宽恕的感觉真的很好。
Were any of them upset?
他们中有人感到不安吗？
Harvey When I go to somebody and say, hey look, I was an asshole, I was this, I was that, and I'm sorry, and I shouldn't have done it, and please forgive me, and if you don't, I'm still asking your forgiveness, and that's a good clean feeling.
哈维：当我对某人说，嘿，看，我是个混蛋，我是这个，我是那个，我很抱歉，我不应该这样做，请原谅我，如果你不这样做，我仍然请求你的原谅，这是一种很好的干净感觉。
It's a rich feeling.
这是一种丰富的感觉。
It balances the body out, man.
它可以平衡身体，伙计。
It really does.
确实如此。
None of the men that Job visited wanted to publish his book, however.
然而，约伯所拜访的人中没有一个人愿意出版他的书。
And he decided that it was time to leave his old life behind, and go to Utah and marry a Mormon girl.
他决定是时候把过去的生活抛在脑后，去犹他州娶一个摩门教女孩了。
He set off by walking and hitchhiking across Texas, wearing German desert army fatigues, black boots, a black beret, a black beard, and a backpack full of Old Testament puppets.
他步行和搭便车穿过德克萨斯州，穿着德国沙漠军迷彩服、黑色靴子、黑色贝雷帽、黑色胡须，背包里装满了《旧约》木偶。
At night, he'd stop in hospitals and small towns and ask if he could perform his puppet show for the kids in exchange for a bed and something to eat.
晚上，他会在医院和小镇停下来，询问是否可以为孩子们表演木偶戏，以换取一张床和一些食物。
He traveled like this across Texas and into New Mexico.
他就这样穿越德克萨斯州，进入新墨西哥州。
And in New Mexico, he got a message from his mother.
在新墨西哥州，他收到了母亲的消息。
A publisher in New York wanted him to write his book.
纽约的一家出版商希望他写书。
Even though Job was very close to a nice, quiet life in Utah, he decided he had an obligation to set the record straight.
尽管约伯即将在犹他州过上美好、安静的生活，但他认为自己有义务澄清事实。
So he went back to New York City.
于是他回到了纽约市。
Coming up, trying to set the record straight, and because of it, ending up in prison the most hated man in America.
上来，试图澄清事实，并因此而入狱，成为美国最令人憎恨的人。
That's in a minute, from Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, people whose lives were pinned in history, caught up in huge historical events, and what they made of their actions years after the fact, when it was quiet enough to make sense of anything.
今天的节目，讲述了那些生活在历史中的人们，卷入了巨大的历史事件，以及他们在事件发生多年后，当一切安静到足以理解任何事情的时候，他们对自己的行为做了什么。
Scott Carrier's story about Harvey Matusow, Job Matusow, continues.
斯科特·卡里尔关于哈维·马图索（乔布·马图索）的故事仍在继续。
Job has moved back to New York, invited to write a book, hoping to set the record straight.
乔布斯已搬回纽约，受邀写一本书，希望澄清事实。
The publishers set him up with an apartment in Manhattan, and a stenographer.
出版商在曼哈顿为他安排了一套公寓，并安排了一名速记员。
And in four months, Job dictated False Witness , his book describing in detail how he'd lied and fabricated stories, and how the government prosecutors had known he was lying and even participated in the process.
在四个月的时间里，约伯口授了《假证人》，他的书详细描述了他如何撒谎和编造故事，以及政府检察官如何知道他在撒谎，甚至参与了这个过程。
In particular, he named Roy Cohn, his old friend and government prosecutor in the trial of the communist leaders in New York, and also in the Jencks trial.
特别是，他在纽约对共产党领导人的审判以及对詹克斯的审判中点名了他的老朋友、政府检察官罗伊·科恩。
In his book, and also under oath, in an affidavit, Job said that Cohn had known that he was lying in the trials, and had even encouraged him to do it.
约伯在他的书中以及宣誓后的一份宣誓书中说，科恩知道他在审判中撒谎，甚至鼓励他这样做。
Cohn denied everything.
科恩否认了一切。
Even before the book was published, Job was called in front of some of the same committees he'd appeared before as an expert witness, only now he was the accused.
甚至在这本书出版之前，约伯就被传唤到他之前作为专家证人出庭的一些委员会面前，只是现在他成了被告。
am not an expert on this subject of Communism.
我不是共产主义这个主题的专家。
I was not a leader in the Communist Party.
我不是共产党的领导人。
I was a Communist flunky in a club on the lower east side of New York.
我是纽约下东区一家俱乐部的共产党走狗。
And through a few lies, I built myself up into an expert on Communism.
通过一些谎言，我把自己变成了共产主义专家。
And you expect me to start sounding off about what the Communist Party thinks and does, about what orders come from Moscow, if any?
你希望我开始谈论共产党的想法和做法，以及来自莫斯科的命令（如果有的话）？
I was finally letting it out and kicking all the shackles off this play-acting.
我终于把它释放出来，踢掉了这场演戏的所有束缚。
I wasn't play-acting when I was testifying.
我作证时并不是在演戏。
I knew they were going to put me in jail, so what could they do?
我知道他们要把我关进监狱，那他们能做什么呢？
Sir?
先生？
Harvey Are you afraid of the truth, sir?
哈维：你害怕真相吗，先生？
I am not afraid of any truth that you can give, because I don't think there's any truth in your body.
我不害怕你能给出的任何真相，因为我不认为你的身体里有任何真相。
They were freaking out.
他们吓坏了。
Like Sourwine, the chief council of the committee, says, haven't you called yourself leader of the Communist youth movement?
就像委员会主席苏尔万所说的那样，你不是自称是共产主义青年运动的领袖吗？
And I responded, I lied.
我回答说，我撒谎了。
And everybody laughed.
大家都笑了。
Haven't you found yourself leader of the Communist youth movement in this country?
你还没有发现自己是这个国家共产主义青年运动的领袖吗？
I lied.
我撒谎了。
You're the one who's responsible for my role as a witness, not I.
你是负责我作为证人角色的人，而不是我。
You're responsible by creating the fear and hysteria in this country, where people can't talk to one another, where neighbor can't talk to neighbor without fear of being called a Communist.
你要为这个国家制造恐惧和歇斯底里而负责，人们不能互相交谈，邻居不能与邻居交谈而不担心被称为共产党人。
You're responsible for the hysteria.
你要为歇斯底里的情绪负责。
We forced you?
我们强迫你的？
Harvey Yes, sir, by creating a fear and hysteria in this country which this country's never seen before, where people can't turn around and talk to their neighbors without fear of being called a Communist.
哈维：是的，先生，通过在这个国家制造一种以前从未见过的恐惧和歇斯底里，人们无法转身与邻居交谈而不担心被称为共产党人。
Honest, decent people.
诚实、正派的人。
You're the one who's responsible for my role as a witness, not I.
你是负责我作为证人角色的人，而不是我。
I knew that when I wrote the book, I was going to go to jail.
我知道当我写这本书时，我就要进监狱了。
There was no question in my mind.
我心里没有任何疑问。
From the beginning, when you were writing the book?
从一开始，当你写这本书的时候？
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
When that became part of my consciousness, I knew, as sure as God made little apples, I was either going to be assassinated or go to jail, or both.
当这成为我意识的一部分时，我知道，就像上帝创造了小苹果一样，我要么会被暗杀，要么进监狱，或者两者兼而有之。
And I was perfectly prepared for it.
我对此已经做好了充分的准备。
In fact, part of me wanted to be assassinated.
事实上，我的一部分想要被暗杀。
It would've been a great release, finally.
最终，这将是一个很棒的发布。
I wrote the book, I did the recantation, I straightened the record out, and if somebody wants to blow me away and let me go home to God, I'll be home with my father.
我写了这本书，我做了忏悔，我整理了记录，如果有人想把我吹走，让我回家见上帝，我会和我父亲一起回家。
What a blessing.
多么幸运啊。
This brings us up to the worst day of Job's life, the day he decided to call himself Job, like from the Bible, only if you'll remember, the Job in the Bible was an innocent man, a virtuous man, who suffered only because of a bet God made with the Devil, whereas Job from Glenwood, Utah is a man who, through his own selfish desires, brought pain and suffering to a lot of people.
这就把我们带到了约伯一生中最糟糕的一天，他决定称自己为约伯的那一天，就像圣经中的那样，只要你记住，圣经中的约伯是一个无辜的人，一个有德行的人，他只是因为上帝与魔鬼打赌而受苦，而来自犹他州格伦伍德的约伯是一个通过自己的自私欲望给很多人带来痛苦和苦难的人。
In his book False Witness , published in 1955, Job confesses his sins and writes about how he was a bad man who's trying to repent.
约伯在 1955 年出版的《假见证》一书中承认了自己的罪，并描述了自己是一个如何努力悔改的坏人。
But when he tells the same story now, in 1998, he sometimes describes the events as if he were a victim of circumstance, or at least that things were never black and white, and that he was simply doing the best he could all along.
但现在，即 1998 年，当他讲述同样的故事时，他有时会描述这些事件，就好像他是环境的受害者，或者至少事情从来都不是黑白分明的，他只是一直在尽力而为。
80% of the people who I named before the committee were Communists, and they were sure of it.
我在委员会面前点名的人中有 80% 是共产党员，他们也确信这一点。
There wasn't a question of my lying about it.
不存在我撒谎的问题。
What was wrong was that I was naming them at all.
错误的是我根本没有给它们命名。
But at the same time, I started to have a fantasy, and based on the experiences I had in Europe at the end of World War II.
但与此同时，我开始产生一种幻想，这是基于我在二战结束时在欧洲的经历。
There were many French Communists who would tell me stories of how they, repugnant as it was, went to work for the SS and the Gestapo and the German authorities that occupied France.
有许多法国共产党人会向我讲述他们如何为党卫军、盖世太保以及占领法国的德国当局工作的故事，尽管这令人厌恶。
And they did so so they could spy on the Germans.
他们这样做是为了监视德国人。
And I used to fantasize-- and it was strictly a fantasy, and I don't want to give it any more credence than that-- that I went to the FBI and did to the FBI what these people had done to the Gestapo.
我曾经幻想过——这完全是一种幻想，我不想再相信它——我去了联邦调查局，对联邦调查局做了这些人对盖世太保所做的事情。
In the end, Job was sent to jail for perjury.
最终，约伯因作伪证而入狱。
When he got out after four years in 1961, he found work publishing avant-garde art books and helping to edit the East Village Other, which, according to Job, was the first underground newspaper in America.
1961 年，四年后出狱后，他找到了出版前卫艺术书籍并帮助编辑《东村其他》的工作，据乔布说，这是美国第一份地下报纸。
In the '60s and early '70s, he traveled to England, France, and Australia.
20世纪60年代和70年代初，他游历了英国、法国和澳大利亚。
But everywhere he went, his past was right behind him.
但无论他走到哪里，他的过去就在他身后。
So I realized at that point that, regardless of what I did, whatever accomplishment I may have, it's going to be attacked and its foundations are going to be chipped away at by the past and people's view and their perception of me in the McCarthy period.
所以我在那一刻意识到，无论我做了什么，无论我取得了什么成就，它都会受到攻击，它的基础将会被过去和麦卡锡时期人们的观点和他们对我的看法所削弱。
And at that point, I realized that I really am not going to care about what they think anymore.
那时，我意识到我真的不会再关心他们的想法了。
Job came back to the States in 1973 and began to commit his life to serving others and doing the Lord's work, as a sort of penance.
1973 年，约伯回到美国，开始致力于为他人服务和做主的工作，作为一种忏悔。
He set up homeless shelters and soup kitchens in New York and Massachusetts, and collected used clothes and food that he drove out to South Dakota and delivered to the Sioux Indians.
他在纽约和马萨诸塞州建立了无家可归者收容所和施食处，并收集旧衣服和食物，并将其运到南达科他州并运送给苏族印第安人。
He moved around a lot, from one city to another, from one wife to another.
他经常搬家，从一个城市到另一个城市，从一位妻子搬到另一位妻子。
He was like Chuck Connors in the TV show, The Rifleman, an officer in the US Calvary who had somehow blacked out in battle and deserted his men, and was court martialed.
他就像电视节目《步枪手》中的查克·康纳斯（Chuck Connors）一样，是美国加略山的一名军官，他在战斗中不知何故昏厥并抛弃了他的部下，并被送上军事法庭。
They broke the rifleman's saber, and he was branded, scorned as the man who ran.
他们折断了步枪手的军刀，他被打上烙印，被蔑视为逃跑的人。
Every week, the rifleman tried to redeem himself by saving lives and helping people out of trouble, and by getting rid of the bad guys in town.
每个星期，步枪手都试图通过拯救生命、帮助人们摆脱困境以及除掉镇上的坏人来救赎自己。
But he could never shake his past.
但他永远无法摆脱自己的过去。
He could never even remember what had happened.
他甚至记不起发生了什么。
In 1977, Job moved to Tucson, Arizona, where he fell in with a troupe of street musicians and performers that he managed and organized into the Magic Mouse Theater, a nonviolent kids TV show on the local public access TV station.
1977 年，乔布斯搬到了亚利桑那州图森市，在那里他结识了一个由街头音乐家和表演者组成的剧团，他管理并组织了这个剧团“魔鼠剧院”，这是当地公共电视台的一档非暴力儿童电视节目。
Job, of course, was the host of the program, Job playing Cockyboo the clown.
乔布当然是节目的主持人，乔布扮演小丑 Cockyboo。
Cockyboo is an old clown, dressed in rags that were once the clothes of a rich man, top hat and tuxedo coat.
Cockyboo是一个老小丑，穿着曾经是富人衣服的破烂衣服，戴着高顶礼帽和燕尾服外套。
He's more scary than funny, and he's always trying to tell you something that you feel like you should be able to understand, but you can't.
他更可怕而不是有趣，他总是试图告诉你一些你觉得你应该能够理解的事情，但你却无法理解。
It all started a long, long time ago.
这一切都是从很久很久以前开始的。
It was in a faraway place, close to the hearts of those knowing love.
它在一个遥远的地方，靠近那些懂得爱的人的心。
And there was a village called Angelville.
有一个名叫安吉尔维尔的村庄。
Now, if you're going too fast or happened to sneeze, you wouldn't see it.
现在，如果你开得太快或者碰巧打喷嚏，你就看不到它了。
And the only way one could get to Angelville was to find the secret path which led to the center of everything.
而到达安吉尔维尔的唯一方法就是找到通往一切中心的秘密道路。
Job lives in a small adobe house he calls the Gandhi Peace Center, a shelter for homeless men.
乔布斯住在一栋小土坯房里，他称之为甘地和平中心，这是无家可归者的庇护所。
But the only homeless men here tonight seems to be Job Matusow.
但今晚这里唯一的无家可归者似乎是乔布·马图索。
His bedroom is also the production room for the TV station, and it's crammed with blinking VCRs and scattered videocassettes and various dust-covered memorabilia from the past.
他的卧室也是电视台的制作室，里面堆满了闪烁的录像机、散落的录像带和各种落满灰尘的过去的纪念品。
It's dinner time, and Job is sitting on a sunken bed, feeding his five little dogs.
晚餐时间到了，约伯坐在一张凹陷的床上，喂他的五只小狗。
This is Mabel Muldoon.
这是梅布尔·马尔登。
And this is Mopsy Muldoon.
这是莫普西·马尔登。
And this one is Buster Brown the Coolest Dog in Doggy Town.
这只狗是小狗镇里最酷的狗巴斯特·布朗。
And they're my family.
他们是我的家人。
I like hanging out with dogs and people with disabilities.
我喜欢与狗和残疾人一起出去玩。
In order to achieve forgiveness, you must do three things.
为了获得宽恕，你必须做三件事。
Of these three, the third, finding peace with yourself, is by far the most difficult.
在这三者中，第三者，找到与自己的平静，是迄今为止最困难的。
If you're able to do this, if you can find redemption, then when bad thing you did comes up again in memory or in conversation, it doesn't matter anymore, whether you were a victim a fate, or whether you caused it all to happen by your own conscious actions, whether you were just doing the best you could under the circumstances, or whether you were evil.
如果你能做到这一点，如果你能找到救赎，那么当你所做的坏事再次出现在记忆中或谈话中时，无论你是命运的受害者，还是你自己有意识的行为导致这一切发生，无论你只是在当时的情况下尽力而为，还是你是邪恶的，都不再重要了。
When you have truly been forgiven, the bad thing doesn't have an effect on you anymore.
当你真正被宽恕时，坏事就不会再对你产生影响了。
It just goes right through you.
它只是直接穿过你。
Look, in the other room, I've got a big picture of Ray Cohn.
看，在另一个房间里，我有一张雷·科恩的大照片。
It's a three-foot by five-foot photograph of Roy Cohn, big.
这是罗伊·科恩 (Roy Cohn) 的一张三英尺乘五英尺的照片，很大。
Morton Downey, Jr., gave it to me one day in New York.
有一天，莫顿·唐尼在纽约把它交给了我。
And I put that picture up of Roy Cohn, that same picture, when he died on July 1, 1988.
我把罗伊·科恩 (Roy Cohn) 的照片放在上面，同一张照片，当时他于 1988 年 7 月 1 日去世。
And I start to say a kaddish for him.
我开始替他说一句卡迪什。
And I don't let his spirit go, and he's the man I should be hating the most in the world.
而我不放过他的精神，他才是我这个世界上最该恨的人。
He sent me to jail for five years, and he was a miserable human being to a lot of people and did a lot of harm, much more than I ever did.
他把我送进监狱五年，对很多人来说他是一个悲惨的人，他造成了很多伤害，比我做过的还要多。
And I still pray for the man.
我仍然为这个人祈祷。
And his big picture's up in my studio, because I don't want to forget that I can forgive.
他的大照片就挂在我的工作室里，因为我不想忘记我可以原谅。
The most enjoyable time I have in life right now is when I sometimes have to get in my car at 4:30 or 5:00 in the morning here in central Utah and drive the 175 miles to Salt Lake City.
我现在生活中最愉快的时光是有时我必须在凌晨 4:30 或 5:00 开车前往犹他州中部，驱车 175 英里到达盐湖城。
And it's still dark, and I get in the car, and it's high in the mountains.
天还黑着，我上了车，山上很高。
And when I get in the car, I have a prayer, and then I start to conjure up the spirit of every human being I have ever known who has gone to spirit, starting with my parents, and my brother, and my aunts, and my uncles, and my grandparents, and then all the people I've ever known, including Senator Joseph McCarthy-- 44 uncles and aunts, including Roy Cohn, my countless cousins, and then all the friends and people I've known in my life who have gone to spirit.
当我上车时，我祈祷，然后我开始召唤我所认识的每一个进入灵性的人的灵魂，从我的父母、我的兄弟、我的阿姨、我的叔叔和我的祖父母开始，然后是我认识的所有人，包括参议员约瑟夫·麦卡锡——44个叔叔和阿姨，包括罗伊·科恩，我无数的表兄弟，然后是我认识的所有朋友和人。我的人生谁都去了精神。
Job told me this story in his house.
约伯在他家里给我讲了这个故事。
He told me the same story in his car.
他在车里给我讲了同样的故事。
And I take a quiet moment and I say to each one, good morning, I love you, and you're not forgotten.
我会安静地对每个人说，早上好，我爱你们，你们不会被忘记。
I've never told this story to anybody before.
我以前从未向任何人讲过这个故事。
Scott, this is amazing that I've shared this with you.
斯科特，我与你分享这个真是太棒了。
It's a very private thing.
这是一件非常私人的事情。
But I want to state that, when I think of all the people, that means all the people I ever knew, the saints and the sinners, and sometimes especially the sinners.
但我想说的是，当我想到所有人时，这意味着我所认识的所有人，圣人和罪人，有时尤其是罪人。
Reporter Scott Carrier lives in Salt Lake City.
记者斯科特·卡里尔住在盐湖城。
Act Two, God of War.
第二幕，战神。
This is the story about somebody who, like Job Matusow, had power over people's lives, thanks to a convergence of historical forces.
这是一个关于像乔布·马图索这样的人的故事，由于历史力量的汇聚，他对人们的生活拥有了权力。
But unlike Job Matusow, this man made a decision about what he thought about his role in history, at the time that it all happened.
但与乔布·马图索不同的是，这个人在这一切发生的时候就决定了他对自己在历史中的角色的看法。
And he hasn't wavered much about it since.
从那以后他对此并没有太大动摇。
It has taken a kind of toll on him, though.
不过，这对他造成了一定的影响。
Jeffrey Harris served as a kind of psychologist for the Army during the Vietnam War, even though he had no graduate degree in psychology.
杰弗里·哈里斯（Jeffrey Harris）在越南战争期间担任陆军心理学家，尽管他没有心理学研究生学位。
It was his job to decide who could go home and who had to stay at the front.
他的工作就是决定谁可以回家，谁必须留在前线。
In other words, who might die and who might have a chance at living.
换句话说，谁可能会死，谁可能还有活下去的机会。
He only had one year of grad school.
他只读过一年研究生。
His tour of duty began at Chu Lai.
他的服役期从朱莱开始。
It's right on the South China Sea.
它就在南中国海。
We had a beach right there.
我们那里就有一个海滩。
So we were kind of on the beach, and fairly far away from the perimeter.
所以我们就在海滩上，距离周边相当远。
It's fairly safe.
这是相当安全的。
We'd get rockets in periodically that'd make you run for cover, but anything that hit over where we were was going to be stray because they'd generally aim their rockets at the airfield.
我们会定期发射火箭，这会让你逃跑，但任何击中我们所在位置的东西都会迷失方向，因为他们通常会将火箭瞄准机场。
I told my wife, I'm going to go over there and I'm going to stay as safe as possible and try to make it through the year and come back.
我告诉我的妻子，我要去那里，我会尽可能保持安全，并努力度过这一年然后回来。
That's what I want to do.
这就是我想做的。
That all changed after I got there.
我到达那里后一切都改变了。
I mean, first place you start seeing people coming in out of the field, and it's hard not to identify with the war in some sense.
我的意思是，首先你开始看到人们走出战场，从某种意义上很难不认同战争。
So what do you mean, identify with the war?
那么认同战争是什么意思？
Well, there's a certain excitement to it.
嗯，有一定的兴奋感。
And if you're back in the rear, back someplace going through somewhat meaningless kind of procedures, you know, just practicing rote, over and over and over again, field training exercises, war games, and all the other stuff that you do, you know, inspection, shining your boots, marching, then the things that are going on are going on out there.
如果你回到后方，回到某个地方，经历一些毫无意义的程序，你知道，只是死记硬背，一遍又一遍，野战训练演习，战争游戏，以及你所做的所有其他事情，你知道，检查，擦亮靴子，行军，那么正在发生的事情就在那里发生。
I'll give you an example.
我给你举个例子。
The commanding officer of that company decided that he was going to beautify the place.
该连的指挥官决定他要美化这个地方。
He was going to plant palm trees and put in sidewalks.
他打算种植棕榈树并修建人行道。
You know, you've got to get out there and do this.
你知道，你必须走出去去做这件事。
Many soldiers volunteer.
许多士兵自愿参加。
If they're in a safe place, it's not uncommon to volunteer to out where the action is, to get away from the bull [BLEEP] at the rear.
如果他们在安全的地方，自愿前往行动地点并远离后方的公牛[BLEEP]的情况并不少见。
The captain invites me into his little office and he says, we have a situation and we need a volunteer.
队长邀请我去他的小办公室，他说，我们有情况，需要一名志愿者。
You know, we considered the other social work specialists around here, but we figure you're the most qualified, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
你知道，我们考虑了这里的其他社会工作专家，但我们认为你是最有资格的，等等，等等。
And I said, what the hell are you asking me to volunteer for?
我说，你到底要我做志愿者做什么？
Now, remember, I'm in Chu Lai, out on the beach.
现在，记住，我在朱莱，在海滩上。
We'd go down there and drink beer and swim, the other kinds of things you do in Vietnam, sit there and smoke a joint and watch the moon rise.
我们会去那里喝啤酒、游泳，就像在越南做的其他事情一样，坐在那里抽烟，看月亮升起。
It's kind of a nice place.
这是一个不错的地方。
And I said, what are you asking me to volunteer for?
我说，你让我做志愿者做什么？
And he says, well, the 196th Infantry Brigade is going away.
他说，好吧，第 196 步兵旅要离开了。
And it was at that time-- I don't know whether you remember-- but it was when the siege on Hue was taking place.
就在那个时候——我不知道你是否还记得——但那是在顺化被围攻的时候。
This was right after the Tet Offensive.
这是春节攻势之后不久的事。
In fact, it's the setting for Full Metal Jacket .
事实上，这是《全金属外壳》的设定。
He says, 196th is going away, and we'd like you to go with them.
他说，196th 即将离开，我们希望你能和他们一起去。
And my stomach just went [MAKES PLOPPING SOUND].
我的胃就开始[发出扑通扑通的声音]。
And I'm sitting there looking at this guy.
我坐在那里看着这个家伙。
And so what I finally did, I got to use the-- Actually, the thing that ended up getting me out in the field was I couldn't pass up a good one liner.
所以我最终做了什么，我必须使用——实际上，最终让我走出去的原因是我不能错过一个好的衬里。
I turned to him and I said, yeah, I've been wanting to get out of this chicken [BLEEP] anyway.
我转向他，我说，是的，无论如何我一直想摆脱这只鸡[BLEEP]。
And I couldn't pass up the one-liner.
我不能错过这句俏皮话。
You know, it was one of those mixed feelings.
你知道，这是一种复杂的感觉。
Did I want to go through this whole situation and someday my grandkids come out and say, grandpa, were you in the war?
我是否想经历这整个情况，有一天我的孙子们出来对我说，爷爷，你参加过战争吗？
Yeah.
是的。
What did you do?
你做了什么？
Planted palm trees.
种植棕榈树。
Furthermore, they were right.
此外，他们是对的。
I mean, when he said, you're the most qualified, he was right.
我的意思是，当他说“你是最有资格的”时，他是对的。
I conceivably was-- well, I was.
可以想象，我是——嗯，我是。
I was the most qualified there, and I knew that.
我是那里最有资格的人，我知道这一点。
Even though I didn't know what the hell I was doing, I knew none of us did.
尽管我不知道自己到底在做什么，但我知道我们没有人知道。
So I went.
所以我去了。
I am out with a medical unit.
我在医疗队外面。
And we have our own little kind of a hospital to handle incoming casualties, which could either be some sort of physical casualty or psychiatric casualty.
我们有自己的小型医院来处理即将到来的伤亡人员，这可能是某种身体伤亡或精神伤亡。
And I have to give you an idea of what our hospital looked like.
我必须让您了解一下我们医院的情况。
The hospital that we'd worked in was built out of ammo boxes that were filled with sand-- that was the walls-- and a plywood kind of a roof over this thing.
我们工作过的医院是用装满沙子的弹药箱建造的——那就是墙壁——上面有一个胶合板，就像屋顶一样。
That was basically it.
基本上就是这样。
Plywood floor.
胶合板地板。
What the equivalent of a bed was a stretcher.
相当于床的东西是担架。
What you had was like saw horses set up, and the casualties would come in on stretchers and you'd lay the stretchers over the saw horses.
你所拥有的就像是锯马架起来，伤员会被担架抬进来，你把担架放在锯马身上。
That's essentially what the hospital looked like.
这基本上就是医院的样子。
And I am the only-- what would you call it?
我是唯一的——你会怎么称呼它？
I'm the only thing close to a psychologist they've got, even though I'm only an enlisted man.
我是他们唯一接近心理学家的人，尽管我只是一名士兵。
And it was frightening for me.
这对我来说很可怕。
It was very scary for me.
这对我来说非常可怕。
They're going to tell me, this individual is yours, and you've got to deal with it, when my background was essentially running rats around mazes.
他们会告诉我，这个人是你的，你必须处理它，而我的背景本质上是在迷宫中跑老鼠。
And what in the hell am I doing here?
我到底在这里做什么？
And often, when we get casualties, one out of four would be psychiatric.
通常，当我们发生伤亡时，四分之一的人患有精神疾病。
So I was dealing one out of-- 25% often would be-- And they'd say, Harris, he's yours.
所以我所处理的交易中的一个——通常是 25%—— 他们会说，哈里斯，他是你的了。
Take what used to be called combat fatigue.
以过去所谓的“战斗疲劳”为例。
That term was not used in Vietnam.
越南没有使用这个词。
It has been used previously.
之前已经使用过。
Shell-shocked is another term.
震惊是另一个术语。
It's the notion of somebody situationally that has reacted to a very high-stress situation, and in some sense or another, broken down.
这是一个概念，某人在某种情况下对非常高的压力情况做出了反应，并且在某种意义上崩溃了。
That was a common sort of thing that I had to deal with.
这是我必须处理的常见事情。
You weren't looking at psychotic behavior.
你没有看到精神病行为。
You weren't looking at somebody that was having delusions or hallucinations.
你没有看到一个有妄想或幻觉的人。
You were looking at someone that's basically in sort of a major panic attack.
你看到的是一个基本上处于严重恐慌发作状态的人。
Sometimes it was.
有时确实如此。
You'd see panic attacks.
你会看到惊恐发作。
But kind of a breakdown and a return to sort of a childishness, help me, help me.
但有点崩溃，又回到了幼稚，帮助我，帮助我。
I can't handle myself.
我无法处理自己。
I can't handle this.
我无法处理这个。
I'm weak.
我很虚弱。
And crying, crying to become-- How can I put it?
然后哭着，哭着变成——怎么说呢？
Somebody to help them, somebody to save them.
有人来帮助他们，有人来拯救他们。
And given the situations that they were in, it's quite understandable.
考虑到他们所处的情况，这是可以理解的。
They might have been walking along and all of a sudden, their whole unit's gone and they're there.
他们可能一直在走，突然间，他们的整个单位都消失了，而他们却在那里。
They wanted me to state that they were psychiatrically, in some constitutional way, unable to go back into that kind of situation, that they had to be removed from the danger because there was something wrong with them.
他们想让我声明，他们在精神上，以某种宪法的方式，无法回到那种情况，他们必须摆脱危险，因为他们出了问题。
They're saying that they can't do it.
他们说他们做不到。
They may not be saying that explicitly, but the body language and the language and everything implied that.
他们可能没有明确地说出这一点，但肢体语言、语言以及一切都暗示了这一点。
And furthermore, quite often it was quite explicit.
而且，很多时候它是相当明确的。
I can't go back out there.
我无法回到那里。
I can't do it.
我做不到。
I'll break down.
我会崩溃的。
I'll die.
我会死的。
I'm unable to do this.
我无法做到这一点。
I'm not strong enough.
我还不够坚强。
I mean, you can play with the theory theoretically yourself.
我的意思是，你可以自己从理论上运用这个理论。
What happens to somebody when you turn to them, and they say, I'm too weak, I can't handle this kind of situation.
当你求助于某人时，他们会说，我太弱了，我无法处理这种情况，会发生什么？
Other people can handle stress, other people can handle danger, I can't.
其他人可以应对压力，其他人可以应对危险，但我不能。
And I turn to them and I agree, and I say, that's right, that's the kind of person you are.
我转向他们，我同意，我说，没错，你就是这样的人。
So I didn't say that.
所以我没有这么说。
I placed the responsibility back on them, that they've got to make a choice, that I am not going to tell them that they're too weak, or that they're too incapable of handling stress, that there's something constitutionally or genetically or whatever the hell it is wrong with them that makes them different from other people.
我把责任放回给他们，他们必须做出选择，我不会告诉他们，他们太弱了，或者他们太没有能力应对压力，他们的体质、基因或其他什么问题使他们与其他人不同。
And also that the reaction is a human reaction, and conceivably it could happen to anybody, any of us.
而且这种反应是人类的反应，可以想象它可能发生在任何人、我们任何人身上。
And my rule was basically none of us go home unless we all go home.
我的规则基本上是我们都不回家，除非我们都回家。
And so, for the combat fatigue or acute situational reaction, the response was that, you are going back to your unit.
因此，对于战斗疲劳或急性情境反应，反应是，你要返回你的部队。
I'm not going to take you out.
我不会带你出去的。
I'm not going to give you a diagnosis and tell you-- I'm not going to send you back to a hospital on the basis that there's something psychologically wrong with you.
我不会给你一个诊断并告诉你——我不会因为你有心理问题而把你送回医院。
And it's a simple philosophy.
这是一个简单的哲学。
If you fall of the horse, you get back on.
如果你从马上摔下来，你会重新上马。
You go back into the situation and you deal with.
你回到当时的情况并进行处理。
Now, the individual, they'll say, I can't.
现在，就个人而言，他们会说，我不能。
I'll say, well, you've got a choice.
我会说，好吧，你有选择。
You can go back to your unit commander and refuse.
你可以回到你的单位指挥官那里拒绝。
Well, they'll throw me in the stockade.
好吧，他们会把我扔进栅栏里。
I say, that's a possibility.
我说，有这个可能。
Another possibility is that they'll send you back to the rear and have you folding blankets in some supply room.
另一种可能性是他们会把你送回后方，让你在某个供应室折叠毯子。
I don't know what they'll do.
我不知道他们会做什么。
But I'm not going to make the decision.
但我不会做出决定。
You've got to make a decision.
你必须做出决定。
Do I sound like it was not difficult for me?
听起来这对我来说并不困难吗？
Quite often, I could've pulled people back, sent them back to the rear.
很多时候，我本可以把人拉回来，送回后方。
I could have done a number of things.
我本可以做很多事情。
I had the power to do that, even though I was only an enlisted man.
尽管我只是一名士兵，但我有能力做到这一点。
I was the only one they had.
我是他们唯一的一个。
And I had that kind of power, and it was very frightening for me.
而我就拥有这样的力量，这对我来说是非常可怕的。
It was something that I had never planned on.
这是我从未计划过的事情。
I had never taken that kind of responsibility in my life, and had never planned on taking it.
我一生中从未承担过这样的责任，也从未计划过承担它。
And there is sense in which you do become inert.
从某种意义上说，你确实会变得惰性。
You're able to look at something and say, oh, there it is.
你可以看着某样东西然后说，哦，它就在那里。
You look at something gruesome.
你看着一些可怕的东西。
That was a common expression in Vietnam-- There it is.
这是越南的一个常见表达方式——就是这样。
You walk up on somebody and he's got his head blown off and his guts are all over, and people look at it and say, there it is, and walk on.
你走到某人身上，他的头被炸掉了，内脏都碎了，人们看着它，说，就在那里，然后继续走。
How else do you deal with sort of thing?
你还如何处理类似的事情？
What do you say?
你怎么说？
You say, there it is.
你说，就在那里。
So you do develop a defense, which for me was kind of frightening after I realized I had it.
所以你确实形成了一种防御，这对我来说有点可怕，当我意识到我拥有它时。
After I came back from Vietnam, that was part of a change that had occurred to me that I was not sure that I wanted to maintain, was this being able to emotionally distance myself from pain, from somebody else's pain.
我从越南回来后，这是我发生的变化的一部分，我不确定我是否想要维持这种变化，这是否能够在情感上使自己远离痛苦，远离别人的痛苦。
At the same time, I don't want to give it up.
同时，我也不想放弃。
Dr. Jeffrey Harris is now a psychologist practicing in Salt Lake City.
杰弗里·哈里斯博士现在是盐湖城的一名心理学家。
He spoke with Scott Carrier.
他与斯科特·卡里尔进行了交谈。
Well, our program produced today by Alix Spiegel and myself, with Nancy Updike and Julie Snyder.
好吧，我们今天的节目由阿利克斯·斯皮格尔和我本人以及南希·厄普代克和朱莉·斯奈德制作。
Senior editor Paul Tough.
高级编辑保罗·托夫。
Contributing editors, Jack Hitt, Margy Rochlin, and consigliere Sarah Vowell.
特约编辑 Jack Hitt、Margy Rochlin 和顾问 Sarah Vowell。
Production help from Rachel Day and [?
雷切尔·戴 (Rachel Day) 和 [?
Suyuni ?] Davenport.
苏尤尼？]达文波特。
"That's The Way It Is" was played on acoustic guitar for us by Michael Kirkpatrick.
迈克尔·柯克帕特里克 (Michael Kirkpatrick) 用原声吉他为我们演奏了“That's The Way It Is”。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] If you want to buy a cassette of this program, call us here at the WBEZ in Chicago.
[鸣谢] 如果您想购买该节目的磁带，请致电我们位于芝加哥的 WBEZ。
The phone number, 312-832-3380.
电话号码：312-832-3380。
Our email address, [email protected] .
我们的电子邮件地址，[电子邮件受保护]。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who also describes himself as--
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 负责监督，他也将自己描述为——
The person who started the myth about getting high off smoking banana peels.
创造了吸香蕉皮使人兴奋的神话的人。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。