95: Monogamy - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #95 | February 19, 1999 95: Monogamy Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 95 集 | 1999 年 2 月 19 日 95：一夫一妻制 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Yes, yes, yes.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 是的，是的，是的。
Like you, I have heard everything I ever care to hear for the rest of my life about President Clinton and his marriage.
和你一样，我一生都听过有关克林顿总统及其婚姻的一切。
But you know, there was a brief moment, at the very beginning of the Monica Lewinsky scandal, when the public discussion included not only the questions of impeachment and lying and is it about sex, or isn't it about sex-- all that stuff-- but also questions about marriage, about how bad it is, how common it is, for people to be unfaithful to their spouses.
但你知道，在莫妮卡·莱温斯基丑闻刚开始时，有一个短暂的时刻，当时公众的讨论不仅包括弹劾和撒谎的问题，是不是关于性的问题——诸如此类的问题——而且还包括关于婚姻的问题，关于人们对配偶不忠的情况有多糟糕、有多普遍。
And it wasn't just the Lewinsky scandal that made that happen.
造成这种情况的不仅仅是莱温斯基丑闻。
Around the time the Lewinsky story broke, Roy Romer, the governor of Colorado, the head of the Democratic party, publicly declared that for 16 years, he'd had a relationship outside his marriage with an aide named B.J.
莱温斯基事件曝光前后，民主党领袖、科罗拉多州州长罗伊·罗默(Roy Romer)公开宣称，16年来，他一直与一位名叫B.J.的助手保持婚外关系。
Thornberry.
刺莓。
He told the press that his wife and family knew about the relationship and that they accepted it.
他告诉媒体，他的妻子和家人知道这段关系，并且接受了。
And he argued in his press conference that it might be helpful if we would talk about what really happens in marriages, long-term marriages, instead of what we usually pretend.
他在新闻发布会上表示，如果我们谈论婚姻、长期婚姻中真正发生的事情，而不是我们通常假装的事情，可能会有所帮助。
Bea and I have been married 45 years.
Bea 和我结婚已经 45 年了。
Is that right, 45?
是吗，45？
And it's a very strong relationship, solid.
这是一种非常牢固、牢固的关系。
In the course of 45 years, in many marriages in this country, different attitudes develop in a marriage.
45年来，这个国家的许多婚姻中，都出现了不同的婚姻态度。
About 50% of them end up in divorce.
其中大约50%的人最终以离婚告终。
They can't work it out.
他们无法解决这个问题。
But in those who remain married, there still are times in which there are different feelings and different relationships.
但对于那些维持婚姻的人来说，仍然有不同的感受和不同的关系的时候。
All families, I think, have these kinds of problems from time to time.
我想，所有的家庭都会时不时地遇到这样的问题。
They handle them differently.
他们以不同的方式处理它们。
All of you listen carefully.
大家都仔细听着。
All of you listen carefully.
大家都仔细听着。
I'm trying to live out a life based upon what I truly believe and truly value.
我正在努力过一种基于我真正相信和真正价值观的生活。
Now, oftentimes, the societal norms don't fully accommodate the way I see it.
现在，社会规范常常无法完全适应我的看法。
I have to work that out.
我必须解决这个问题。
I'm trying to say I have conducted myself to my wife, to my children, and to B.J.
我想说的是，我已经对我的妻子、我的孩子和 B.J. 表现得很好。
in a way which I tried to be very honest and open and true to what I felt and believed.
我试图以一种非常诚实、开放和真实的方式对待我的感受和信念。
Here is the window of discussion that's being opened up right now in our country.
这是我们国家现在正在打开的讨论之窗。
It came up with Roy Romer.
罗伊·罗默（Roy Romer）提出了这个想法。
It came up with Bill Clinton before him.
它提出了在他之前的比尔·克林顿。
And it has to do with monogamy, how to think about it.
这与一夫一妻制有关，如何思考它。
In a magazine called Critical Inquiry , a Northwestern University professor named Laura Kipnis makes the case that there are a lot of marriages where people are simply unhappy.
在一本名为《批判性探究》的杂志中，西北大学教授劳拉·基普尼斯指出，有很多婚姻只是让人不幸福。
And these people are like workers who are alienated from their jobs, numb, going nowhere.
而这些人就像工人一样，与自己的工作疏远了，麻木了，一事无成。
You know, we're told these days that we're supposed to work at marriage the way that we're supposed to work at a job.
你知道，现在我们被告知，我们应该像对待工作一样对待婚姻。
And so you work your job, and you work at home.
所以你工作，你在家工作。
And what do you get?
你得到了什么？
And for these people in unfulfilling marriages, she says, having an affair is like a wildcat strike.
她说，对于这些婚姻不美满的人来说，外遇就像野猫罢工一样。
It's an action, a civil action, a small attempt at altering the business-as-usual of their own lives.
这是一项行动，一项民事行动，是改变他们自己生活常态的一次小小的尝试。
All the norms that people feel are the ones that you have to subscribe to and live up to don't work for a lot of people.
人们认为的所有规范都是你必须遵守和遵守的，但对很多人来说并不适用。
And I think that's what's so interesting about politician adultery, is that everybody's very morally punitive about it, or that's kind of the usual way of talking about it.
我认为这就是政客通奸的有趣之处，每个人都对它进行道德上的惩罚，或者这是谈论它的通常方式。
But nobody really talks about, well, why are these guys risking their careers and having these affairs?
但没有人真正谈论，为什么这些人要冒着职业风险去搞这些事情？
These guys who are supposed to be so streetwise and savvy and canny in every way, putting everything on the line.
这些家伙应该在各方面都很有街头智慧、精明和精明，把一切都赌在了危险上。
So and why?
那么又为什么呢？
Laura Kipnis Well, I guess what I'm saying is that one, people are trawling around for ways to somehow improve the quality of their life, that people feel, in a lot of cases, that they're somehow not getting what they should be getting, that normal life and the couple form, it just doesn't deliver what it's supposed to.
劳拉·基普尼斯（Laura Kipnis）：嗯，我想我要说的是，人们正在寻找各种方法来改善他们的生活质量，在很多情况下，人们感觉他们没有得到他们应该得到的东西，正常的生活和夫妻形式，只是没有提供它应该得到的东西。
It doesn't cover everything.
它并没有涵盖所有内容。
It doesn't work.
这不起作用。
It doesn't make people happy.
它不会让人快乐。
I know that sounds a little banal.
我知道这听起来有点平庸。
It doesn't seem to say enough.
看来还不够说。
But I guess I think happiness is a pretty big question.
但我想我认为幸福是一个很大的问题。
And it's one that there just are very few ways of talking about.
而对于这一问题，谈论的方式却很少。
And I think that's what's so interesting about what's going on now, because it's opening up this way to talk about things that are just never talked about.
我认为这就是现在正在发生的事情的有趣之处，因为它正在以这种方式开放来谈论从未被谈论过的事情。
What would it be like if politicians talked about, really, the fabric of people's daily lives, what it would take to be happy, what it would take to be fulfilled?
如果政客们真正谈论人们日常生活的结构，如何才能获得幸福，如何才能获得满足，那会是什么样子？
Just to summarize, I was trying to describe life as it really happens to families.
总而言之，我试图描述真实发生在家庭身上的生活。
And when you're in political life, there is such a hot stream of focus on you that you really do not have opportunity, the chance to say, there are tough, ambiguous things you have to decide.
当你身处政治生活时，你会受到如此强烈的关注，以至于你真的没有机会，没有机会说，有一些艰难、模糊的事情你必须做出决定。
Most of us, I think, are very hesitant to believe that any kind of non-monogamous relationship can work.
我认为，我们大多数人都非常犹豫是否相信任何类型的非一夫一妻制关系都能发挥作用。
And Roy Romer did not have an easy press conference.
罗伊·罗默的新闻发布会并不轻松。
The 69-year-old professional pol, a glad hand from the world of soundbites and fund-raising dinners, found himself theorizing publicly about trust and love and what marriage is.
这位 69 岁的职业政治家是一位来自声音片段和筹款晚宴世界的乐手，他发现自己公开谈论信任、爱情以及婚姻是什么。
You see, this is the issue.
你看，这就是问题所在。
What is fidelity?
什么是保真度？
Fidelity is what kind of openness you have, what kind of trust you have, which is based upon truth and openness.
忠诚是你有什么样的开放，你有什么样的信任，这是基于真实和开放的。
And so in my own family, we discussed that at some length.
因此，在我自己的家里，我们对此进行了一定的讨论。
And we have tried to arrive at an understanding of what our feelings are, our needs are, and work it out with that kind of fidelity.
我们试图了解我们的感受和需求，并以这种忠诚度来解决它。
Well, from WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life .
嗯，来自 WBEZ 芝加哥和国际公共广播电台，这是《美国生活》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today in our program, monogamy and its discontents.
今天在我们的节目中，一夫一妻制及其不满。
Stories of people struggling to redefine monogamy, to stay monogamous, and what we should make of these ad hoc experiments in everyday life.
人们努力重新定义一夫一妻制、保持一夫一妻制的故事，以及我们应该如何在日常生活中进行这些临时实验。
Today, we hear case examples.
今天我们就来听听案例。
Act One, Scientific Experiment, the story of a couple, the wife got a crush on another man, and how they tried to contain the crush, channel the crushy feeling, and what happens when you apply rational ideas to irrational feelings.
第一幕，科学实验，一对夫妇的故事，妻子迷恋另一个男人，以及他们如何试图遏制这种迷恋，疏导迷恋的感觉，以及当你将理性的想法应用于非理性的感受时会发生什么。
Act Two, Love and Happiness.
第二幕，爱与幸福。
Dan Savage talks to real non-monogamous couples, who explain whether they're actually happy and why it might be OK to see other partners, but only if it happens in other time zones.
丹·萨维奇与真正的非一夫一妻制夫妇交谈，他们解释了他们是否真的幸福，以及为什么可以见到其他伴侣，但前提是发生在其他时区。
Act Three, Istanbul.
第三幕，伊斯坦布尔。
Ian Brown talks about the experience that most of us have struggling to stay monogamous, and what we should think of that struggle.
伊恩·布朗谈到了我们大多数人为保持一夫一妻制而奋斗的经历，以及我们应该如何看待这场斗争。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Scientific Experiment.
第一幕，科学实验。
Well, the essential question of monogamy is what to do with feelings that you may find that you have for someone else when you're in a couple.
嗯，一夫一妻制的基本问题是，当你处于情侣状态时，如何处理你可能发现的对其他人的感情。
You think you still love your spouse, and then you get this crush.
你认为你仍然爱你的配偶，然后你就迷恋上了。
You can ignore it and agonize, or you can act on it and agonize.
你可以忽略它并感到痛苦，也可以采取行动并感到痛苦。
This is the story of a couple, Sylvere and Chris.
这是一对夫妇西尔维尔和克里斯的故事。
The wife, Chris, got a crush on another man.
妻子克里斯爱上了另一个男人。
And her husband, Sylvere, suggested that she turn her crush into a kind of art project, a writing project, that they would do together.
她的丈夫西尔维尔建议她把她的迷恋变成一种艺术项目，一个写作项目，让他们一起做。
The two of them put out a magazine called Send Me a Text.
他们两人出版了一本名为《给我发短信》的杂志。
And he thought maybe the writing could end up in the magazine or somewhere else.
他认为也许这篇文章最终会出现在杂志或其他地方。
But a crush is a powerful thing, an irrational thing, really.
但迷恋是一件很强大的事情，确实是一件非理性的事情。
Trying to contain it within an art project, within monogamy, is not so easy.
试图将其包含在艺术项目中、一夫一妻制中并不那么容易。
Here's what happens if you try.
如果您尝试一下，将会发生以下情况。
We started one evening, an evening like any other, which we spent as a couple with a friend, actually, somewhat of an associate of mine.
我们从一个晚上开始，一个像其他任何一个晚上一样的夜晚，我们作为情侣和一个朋友一起度过，实际上，有点像我的一个同事。
And we just had dinner in a restaurant.
我们刚刚在一家餐馆吃过晚饭。
And after that, we decided to go and have a drink at his place.
之后，我们决定去他家喝一杯。
Ah, dinner.
啊，晚餐。
Well, at dinner, I noticed that Dick was making eye contact with me across the table.
嗯，晚餐时，我注意到迪克在桌子对面与我进行眼神交流。
And at one point in the evening, he'd looked at me, the way I was dressed.
晚上的某个时刻，他看着我，看着我的穿着。
We'd met each other once or twice before.
我们以前见过一两次面。
And he said, "You look as though you're really ready to come out, come out with something." Anyway, it was very strong, and it was very sexy.
他说，“你看起来好像真的准备好出来，拿出一些东西来。”反正很强势，也很性感。
It was like Dick and I were speaking a secret language in front of Sylvere.
就好像迪克和我在西尔维尔面前说着一种秘密语言。
He lived in a desert somewhere.
他住在沙漠的某个地方。
And it was quite a long drive through the mountains and down the desert, and then winding along roads until we reached his house, which was the last house in a little desert town, really the last stop before nowhere.
我们开车穿过山脉，沿着沙漠走了很长一段路，然后沿着道路蜿蜒而行，直到我们到达他的家，这是沙漠小镇上的最后一栋房子，实际上是最后一站。
And then we had an evening together, which was, I thought, pretty nice.
然后我们一起度过了一个晚上，我认为这非常美好。
And we got some drinks and listened to music and saw Dick's video.
我们喝了点饮料，听了音乐，看了迪克的视频。
And it was one of these evenings that turns to be like morning.
就在这个夜晚，事情变得像早晨一样。
Dick played us a video that he'd made that was commissioned by English Public Television of himself dressed as Johnny Cash, riding his horse into the heart of darkness and talking about earthquakes and longing and despair.
迪克给我们播放了一段他受英国公共电视台委托制作的视频，视频中他打扮成约翰尼·卡什，骑着马走进黑暗的中心，谈论地震、渴望和绝望。
And it was then that I fell totally in love with Dick.
就在那时，我彻底爱上了迪克。
Yeah.
是的。
Sylvere I was not quite aware that there was anything happening between Dick and Chris, my wife.
西尔维尔 我不太清楚迪克和我妻子克里斯之间发生了什么。
And there was not much happening, except in her mind, I guess.
我猜，除了她的内心之外，并没有发生太多事情。
And then we went to bed.
然后我们就去睡觉了。
We stumble off to bed at 2 o'clock in the morning, me and Sylvere on the sofa bed in the living room, Dick in his bedroom on the other side of the wall with the door closed.
凌晨两点，我们跌跌撞撞地上床睡觉，我和西尔维尔躺在客厅的沙发床上，迪克在墙另一边的卧室里，门关着。
And all night long, I found myself dreaming that I had moved across the wall and I was in bed with Dick.
整个晚上，我发现自己梦见自己已经翻过墙，和迪克躺在床上。
And in the morning-- we're on a kind of extended sofa-- and in the morning, Dick was gone.
早上——我们坐在一种加长沙发上——早上，迪克就走了。
And Chris started fantasizing about the fact that he-- before realizing he was left, she fantasized about the fact that he was like smoking a cigarette in his bed.
克里斯开始幻想他——在意识到他被离开之前，她幻想他就像在床上抽烟一样。
And then we discovered he was gone.
然后我们发现他走了。
And we waited a bit and then decided to go back to our place.
我们等了一会儿，然后决定回到我们的住处。
And that was the main substance of what became an extended story.
这就是后来的长篇故事的主要内容。
We left, and we went and had breakfast at the IHOP down the road.
我们离开了，然后去路边的 IHOP 吃早餐。
And I couldn't stop talking about it.
我无法停止谈论它。
We talk about all these things and things that go through our head.
我们谈论所有这些事情以及我们脑海中闪过的事情。
And I guess I pay attention to them, but I didn't pay special attention to it at that point.
我想我注意到了它们，但当时我并没有特别注意。
It didn't seem like anything real.
这看起来不像是真的。
And I didn't feel threatened by it at all.
而且我根本没有感到受到威胁。
We weren't really very sexual at that point in our relationship anymore.
那时我们的关系已经不再那么性感了。
And the way that we compensated for the lack of sex was we would deconstruct everything.
我们弥补性缺失的方式就是解构一切。
We'd tell each other everything.
我们会告诉彼此一切。
That's how you stay intimate with somebody.
这就是你与某人保持亲密关系的方式。
So I told Sylvere everything that had happened to me that night and everything that was on my mind.
于是我把那天晚上发生在我身上的一切以及我脑子里的一切都告诉了西尔维尔。
And we couldn't stop talking about it.
我们无法停止谈论它。
And all the way back, we kept talking about what happened last night with Dick, last night with Dick, our night with Dick.
一路回来，我们一直在谈论昨晚与迪克发生的事情，昨晚与迪克的事情，我们与迪克的夜晚。
Chris has crushes once in a while.
克里斯偶尔也会有暗恋的时候。
The only defense with a usual couple, I guess, is that we talk about it and laugh about it or explore it a little bit.
我想，对于普通情侣来说，唯一的防御就是我们谈论它，嘲笑它，或者探索一下它。
But that's part of being together.
但这是在一起的一部分。
We share everything.
我们分享一切。
Well, I was tormented.
嗯，我被折磨了。
So I went to Sylvere, and I was, "Oh, Sylvere, what should I do?
所以我去找西尔维尔，我说：“哦，西尔维尔，我该怎么办？
What should I do?
我该怎么办？
Maybe I should write a letter." And Sylvere said, "Yes, of course.
也许我应该写封信。”西尔维尔说：“是的，当然。
That's a great idea, Chris.
这是个好主意，克里斯。
I think you should write a letter.
我想你应该写一封信。
I'll help you.
我会帮助你。
Let's get the computer.
我们去拿电脑吧。
Let's set it up right now.
我们现在就来设置一下吧。
We'll write a letter to Dick."
我们会给迪克写一封信。”
Turning it into a project was turning it into something we could do together.
把它变成一个项目就是把它变成我们可以一起做的事情。
See, I decided from the beginning I wasn't going to be jealous, because I've been through that.
看，我从一开始就决定我不会嫉妒，因为我已经经历过了。
And I don't have any respect for it.
我对它没有任何尊重。
And I don't think that marriage is a property in which you own anyone.
我不认为婚姻是你拥有任何人的财产。
I never agreed with myself when I felt jealous, although I recognize the emotion, which is very powerful.
当我感到嫉妒时，我从来不同意自己的观点，尽管我认识到这种情绪非常强大。
And so you started writing letters.
于是你开始写信。
And you wrote the first letter.
你写了第一封信。
I wrote the first letter, yes, because I knew Dick much better.
是的，我写了第一封信，因为我更了解迪克。
And I liked the idea.
我喜欢这个主意。
I liked Dick.
我喜欢迪克。
I liked him then, and I kind of like him now.
那时我喜欢他，现在我也有点喜欢他。
Sylvere wrote the first letter.
西尔维尔写了第一封信。
And Sylvere wrote a really good letter.
西尔维尔写了一封非常好的信。
But it wasn't enough.
但这还不够。
And when Sylvere finished his letter, I knew that there were things that I could add.
当西尔维尔完成他的信时，我知道我可以添加一些东西。
And his letter prompted me to write my letter.
他的信促使我写了我的信。
So I wrote my first letter.
于是我写了我的第一封信。
And then Sylvere was very critical of my first letter.
然后西尔维尔对我的第一封信非常批评。
And he said, "This and this and this are wrong, and you could do it better." Well, we both sat down to write the second draft, Sylvere's second letter and my second letter.
他说：“这个、这个、这个都是错误的，你可以做得更好。”好吧，我们俩坐下来写第二稿，西尔维尔的第二封信和我的第二封信。
And the notion from the very beginning was that you would write the letters, but you would not send them?
从一开始的想法就是你会写信，但你不会寄出它们？
No. I think the notion at the very beginning was that we would send them.
不，我认为一开始的想法是我们会发送它们。
But after you've written a first draft and a second draft, and then a third and a fourth and a fifth letter, and you have a stack of letters-- in fact, after three days, we had maybe 80 pages of letters-- it reaches a point where you can't possibly send the letter.
但是当你写完第一稿和第二稿，然后是第三封、第四封和第五封信之后，你就有了一堆信件——事实上，三天后，我们可能收到了 80 页的信件——到了你不可能寄出这封信的地步。
Well, first of all, the way we wrote the letter was the essential thing, because the idea was not to write letters in repose and think about the words.
嗯，首先，我们写信的方式是最重要的，因为我们的想法不是在休息时写信并思考单词。
We both have a computer.
我们都有一台电脑。
And we're sitting in front of each other and basically dictating the letter to the other person.
我们坐在彼此面前，基本上是向对方口述这封信。
OK, this is from the first letter that I wrote to Dick.
好的，这是我写给迪克的第一封信。
"Crestline, California, December 9, 1994.
“加利福尼亚州克雷斯特莱恩，1994 年 12 月 9 日。
Dear Dick, when you called on Sunday night, I was writing a description of your face.
亲爱的迪克，当你周日晚上打电话来时，我正在写你的脸的描述。
I couldn't talk and hung up on the bottom end of the romantic equation with beating heart and sweaty palms.
我无法说话，心脏跳动，手心出汗，挂断了浪漫方程式的底部。
It's incredible to feel this way.
这种感觉真是难以置信。
For 10 years, my life's been organized around avoiding this painful elemental state.
十年来，我的生活一直围绕着避免这种痛苦的基本状态而组织。
Sylvere, who's typing this, says this letter lacks a point.
西尔维尔（Sylvere）正在打字，他说这封信缺乏要点。
What reaction am I looking for?
我在寻找什么反应？
He says I'm squashing out all the trembly little things he found so touching.
他说我正在压制所有他觉得如此感人的颤抖的小东西。
But Dick, I know that as you read this, you'll know these things are true.
但是迪克，我知道当你读到这篇文章时，你就会知道这些都是真的。
Being in love with you, being ready to take this ride, made me feel 16, hunched up in a leather jacket in a corner with my friends.
爱上你，准备好踏上这段旅程，让我感觉自己已经 16 岁了，穿着皮夹克和朋友们一起在角落里驼背。
A timeless image.
永恒的形象。
It's about not giving a [BLEEP] or seeing all the consequences looming and doing something anyway.
这是关于不发出[BLEEP]或看到所有迫在眉睫的后果并无论如何采取行动。
Sylvere thinks he's that kind of anarchist.
西尔维尔认为他是那种无政府主义者。
But he's not.
但他不是。
I love you, Dick.
我爱你，迪克。
Chris."
克里斯。”
Could you open to page 49?
你能翻到49页吗？
Most of the letters take the form of real letters, but this is a letter which takes the form of dialogue between the two of you.
大多数信件都采用真实信件的形式，但这封信采用了你们两个之间对话的形式。
Do you want me to read that?
你想让我读一下吗？
Ira Glass Yeah.
艾拉·格拉斯 是的。
Basically, it's this dialogue between you and Chris.
基本上，这是你和克里斯之间的对话。
And yeah, could you please?
是的，可以吗？
Yeah, each of us typing on a typewriter.
是的，我们每个人都用打字机打字。
"Chris-- Sylvere, this is like the institute of emotional research.
“克里斯——西尔维尔，这就像情感研究所。
Sylvere-- The only way we can recapture any feeling is by evoking Dick.
西尔维尔——我们重新找回感觉的唯一方法就是唤起迪克的回忆。
Sylvere-- Do we need that?
Sylvere——我们需要那个吗？
It's so mixed up.
真是太混杂了。
At times, we reach these peaks of real possession at his expense.
有时，我们以牺牲他的利益为代价达到了实际占有率的顶峰。
But through it, we're able to see him more clearly than he ever would himself.
但通过它，我们能够比他本人更清楚地看到他。
Chris-- Don't be so presumptuous.
克里斯——别这么自以为是。
You keep talking about Dick as if he was your little brother.
你一直谈论迪克，就好像他是你的弟弟一样。
You think you have his number.
你认为你有他的电话号码。
Sylvere-- Well, I don't have the same take on him as you do.
Sylvere——好吧，我对他的看法和你不一样。
Chris-- I don't have a take.
克里斯——我没有意见。
I'm in love with him.
我爱上了他。
Sylvere-- It's so unfair.
Syvere——这太不公平了。
What has he done to deserve this?
他做了什么值得这样的事？
8:45 PM."
晚上 8 点 45 分。”
Sylvere, as you wrote these letters, did you find most of the time that you were writing in the letters, urging Chris not to love him, or urging Chris to love him?
西尔维尔，当你写这些信时，你是否发现大部分时间你都在写信，敦促克里斯不要爱他，或者敦促克里斯爱他？
Well, it all depends.
好吧，这一切都取决于。
What happened is that I got involved in the project.
发生的事情是我参与了这个项目。
And when she got too intense about it, I started being anxious about it and upset.
当她对此过于紧张时，我开始感到焦虑和不安。
But when, somehow, the project became elusive and we were beginning to lose the thread, then I would somehow push her to get back into it, I guess because it was a form of communing.
但不知何故，当这个项目变得难以捉摸，我们开始失去线索时，我就会以某种方式推动她重新投入其中，我想因为这是一种交流形式。
It was a form of being together.
这是一种在一起的形式。
It was a good excuse to play a game together-- the conjugal game, the jealous husband game.
这是一起玩游戏的好借口——夫妻游戏、嫉妒丈夫游戏。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Do you feel like part of what writing the letters was about was trying to keep this feeling, this transgressive feeling, this crush, penned in within the bounds of your marriage vows?
你是否觉得写这些信的部分目的是试图将这种感觉、这种越轨的感觉、这种迷恋保留在你的婚姻誓言的范围内？
You know, we never said to ourselves, "We're going to write letters because we don't want to transgress the bounds of our marriage." We never said that.
你知道，我们从来没有对自己说过：“我们要写信，因为我们不想超越婚姻的界限。”我们从来没有这么说过。
But at a certain point, Sylvere and I looked at each other and said, "This is the closest we've been in years.
但在某个时刻，西尔维尔和我互相看着对方说：“这是我们多年来最亲密的一次。
We're having more fun together having this adventure, writing these letters, being in love with this third person, than we've had in our entire marriage.
我们一起经历这次冒险、写这些信、爱上这个第三者，比我们整个婚姻中的乐趣还要多。
What's threatening to tear us apart is, in fact, bringing us closer together."
事实上，那些威胁要撕裂我们的东西却让我们更加紧密地联系在一起。”
Sylvere fell deeply in love with me while this correspondence was going on, in a way that he had never been in love with me before.
在通信期间，西尔维尔深深地爱着我，以一种他以前从未爱过我的方式。
Our connection had been very intellectual, very professional.
我们的联系非常智慧、非常专业。
But it'd never been a grand passion or a great love.
但这从来都不是一种伟大的激情或伟大的爱情。
And I really felt the lack of that in my life.
我真的感觉到我的生活中缺乏这一点。
So one of the things that happened between the two of you is, as you went through this process, your sex life returned.
所以你们两个之间发生的一件事就是，当你们经历这个过程时，你们的性生活又回来了。
Right, which is one of the good things that can happen out of bad ones.
是的，这是坏事中可能发生的好事之一。
And that's a great gift.
这是一份很棒的礼物。
Chris At the very last phase of this dual correspondence to Dick, of me and Sylvere writing letters to Dick, we were at our house in upstate New York.
克里斯 在我和西尔维尔给迪克写信的双重信件的最后阶段，我们在纽约州北部的家里。
And we decided that our lives were a lot like Charles and Emma Bovary's, trapped in the provinces of Yonville.
我们认为我们的生活很像查尔斯和艾玛·包法利，被困在永维尔省。
Sylvere decided to become Charles Bovary.
西尔维尔决定成为查尔斯·包法利。
So he wrote a letter to Dick as Charles Bovary, thanking him for the fact that he and I had started having sex together again.
因此，他以查尔斯·包法利的身份给迪克写了一封信，感谢他让我和他再次开始发生性关系。
"Thurman, New York, January 12, 1995, Thursday.
“瑟曼，纽约，1995 年 1 月 12 日，星期四。
Dear Dick, this is Charles Bovary.
亲爱的迪克，我是查尔斯·包法利。
Emma and I have been living together for some nine years.
艾玛和我已经同居九年了。
Everyone knows what this entails.
每个人都知道这意味着什么。
Passion becomes tenderness.
激情变成温柔。
Tenderness turns soft.
温柔变得柔软。
Sex became short and somewhat wobbly.
性爱变得短暂且有些不稳定。
We had sex rarely, pretending it didn't matter.
我们很少做爱，假装这并不重要。
Our love increased, and sex was sublimated to more worthy social endeavors-- art, careers, property.
我们的爱增加了，性也升华为更有价值的社会事业——艺术、事业、财产。
Still occasionally, the troubling thought surfaced that a couple without sex is hardly a couple at all.
有时，令人不安的想法也会浮现出来：没有性行为的夫妻根本算不上是夫妻。
It's at this point, Dick, after we'd convinced ourselves that a life without sex was a better life, that you entered our life like an angel of mercy.
正是在这一点上，迪克，在我们说服自己没有性的生活是更好的生活之后，你像仁慈的天使一样进入了我们的生活。
Emma's desiring elsewhere enabled me to regain desire.
艾玛对其他地方的渴望使我重新获得了渴望。
How it happened remains a miracle.
它是如何发生的仍然是一个奇迹。
It returned suddenly about a week ago, the spirit of sex, like one of these little Roman gods, touching every part of my body, arousing them to the sacredness of pleasure, as if the veil had lifted and a new field of human possibility revealed.
大约一周前，它突然回来了，性的精神，就像这些罗马小神之一，触摸着我身体的每一个部分，唤醒了它们神圣的快乐，仿佛面纱已经揭开，人类可能性的新领域显露出来。
I dedicate this letter to you, Dick.
谨以此信给你，迪克。
With all my love, Charles."
带着我全部的爱，查尔斯。”
Do you think that Sylvere had any feelings of jealousy?
你觉得西维尔有嫉妒的情绪吗？
Well, of course he did.
嗯，他当然这么做了。
I mean, how could this happen and Sylvere not be jealous?
我的意思是，发生这种事怎么可能西尔维尔不嫉妒呢？
But Sylvere is a very reasonable and reflective person.
但西尔维尔是一个非常理性、善于思考的人。
So as these emotions start to come up, like jealousy, he looks at them and says, "Well, hmm.
因此，当这些情绪开始出现时，比如嫉妒，他看着它们说：“嗯，嗯。
Is that really the way I want to feel?
这真的是我想要的感觉吗？
Is that the way I want to handle this?
这就是我想要的处理方式吗？
Is that the kind of person I want to be?" And he says, "No." So then he looks around for another angle.
我想成为这样的人吗？”他说：“不。”于是他环顾四周寻找另一个角度。
What angle, what position could he take, that would avoid jealousy?
他可以采取什么角度、什么立场，才能避免嫉妒？
Because jealousy-- really, to be the jealous husband, is just to be such a buffoon.
因为嫉妒——实际上，成为一个嫉妒的丈夫，就等于成为一个小丑。
Yes, there were moments where I felt dumped and I felt betrayed and I felt it was going too far and I wanted to backtrack.
是的，有些时候我感觉被抛弃了，感觉被背叛了，我觉得事情太过分了，我想回头。
And it wasn't always possible.
但这并不总是可能的。
Months passed.
几个月过去了。
Chris kept writing love letters to Dick.
克里斯不断地给迪克写情书。
The experiment of containing her feelings in a rational little art project was, in fact, unleashing her feelings.
将她的感情包含在一个理性的小艺术项目中的实验实际上是释放了她的感情。
She became obsessed.
她变得着迷了。
She says it was like self-hypnosis.
她说这就像自我催眠。
Dick never wrote back.
迪克从未回信。
She fell deeper and deeper in love.
她爱得越来越深。
And as she wrote, she started to reflect on her marriage, on how she'd become an appendage to Sylvere, how she no longer had a separate life, a separate identity.
正如她所写的，她开始反思自己的婚姻，反思自己如何成为西尔维尔的附属品，反思自己如何不再拥有独立的生活、独立的身份。
She was resentful.
她很怨恨。
It became a roller coaster.
它变成了过山车。
And you're not always in control.
而且你并不总是处于控制之中。
And of course, the marriage was at stake.
当然，婚姻也岌岌可危。
And the marriage, she broke.
而婚姻，她也破裂了。
After months of writing these letters to Dick, it became impossible for me to continue living with Sylvere the way I had.
在给迪克写了几个月的信之后，我不可能继续像以前那样和西尔维尔一起生活了。
Explain that.
解释一下。
Chris Well, OK.
克里斯 好吧，好吧。
Things changed very drastically, because at the end of what I call the first round of letters, after we'd written about 200 pages together, I actually gave them to Dick.
事情发生了巨大的变化，因为在我称之为第一轮信件的最后，在我们一起写了大约 200 页之后，我实际上把它们给了迪克。
We were out in California, and we had another dinner with Dick.
我们在加利福尼亚州，又和迪克共进了晚餐。
And I presented the letters to Dick.
我把这些信交给了迪克。
Well, Dick was gob-struck.
好吧，迪克惊呆了。
He couldn't believe it.
他简直不敢相信。
No. You see, Dick had said something to me pretty early on in the correspondence.
不。你看，迪克很早就在信件中对我说了一些话。
He said, "Right now, I'm at a point in my life where I'm experimenting with what it's like to never say no, to say yes to everything that comes along." So he decided not to say no to me and to my project.
他说：“现在，我正处于人生的一个阶段，我正在尝试永远不说‘不’，对发生的一切都说‘是’的感觉。”所以他决定不对我和我的项目说不。
He didn't give me any encouragement.
他没有给我任何鼓励。
He didn't participate in it.
他没有参与其中。
But he never said no. He never said stop.
但他从来没有说过不。他从来没有说过停止。
We had a house in upstate New York, and I moved up there alone that winter to be alone to write to Dick.
我们在纽约州北部有一所房子，那年冬天我独自搬到那里，独自给迪克写信。
And I called Dick, and I told him that I'd left my husband and that I really wanted to see him alone, and could I come out and spend a weekend with him.
我打电话给迪克，告诉他我已经离开了我的丈夫，我真的很想单独见到他，我可以出来和他一起度过一个周末吗？
Well, he said yes.
嗯，他说是的。
He said, "I won't say no."
他说：“我不会说不。”
When she actually met Dick, I was out of my mind, of course.
当然，当她真正见到迪克时，我疯了。
So.
所以。
Well, the plan was that I was going to drive out to his place as soon as I got off the plane.
嗯，计划是我一下飞机就开车去他家。
And I did that.
我就这么做了。
It was a Thursday night.
那是一个星期四的晚上。
It was raining.
正在下雨。
I was terribly nervous.
我非常紧张。
I'd changed clothes two or three times-- on the plane, in the rental car office.
我已经换过两三次衣服了——在飞机上，在租车公司。
And I got to Dick's house.
我到了迪克的家。
And he was there.
他就在那里。
And I saw him through the plate-glass window.
我透过平板玻璃窗看到了他。
And he was deep in thought.
而他又陷入了沉思。
He was grading papers.
他正在批改试卷。
And I knocked on the door, and he answered it.
我敲了敲门，他应了门。
And he brushed me very lightly on the side of the cheek.
他轻轻地拂过我的脸颊。
And I came in.
我进来了。
We had a drink.
我们喝了一杯。
And very soon, the conversation came around to him asking me, "Why are you here?" He started attacking me.
很快，话题转向他问我：“你为什么在这里？”他开始攻击我。
And he said, "I think you're demonic and psychotic." He started screaming at me.
他说：“我认为你是恶魔和精神病。”他开始对我尖叫。
"You don't know me.
“你不认识我。
We've had two or three evenings, talked on the phone once or twice.
我们已经度过了两三个晚上，通了一两次电话。
And you project this [BLEEP] over me.
然后你将这个[BLEEP]投射到我身上。
You kidnap me.
你绑架我。
You stalk me, invade me with your games.
你跟踪我，用你的游戏入侵我。
And I don't want it.
我不想要它。
I never asked for it.
我从来没有要求过。
I think you're evil and psychotic." I didn't know what to do.
我认为你很邪恶而且精神病。”我不知道该怎么办。
I was completely devastated.
我彻底崩溃了。
Except for the evil and psychotic part, do you see why he would say, "You don't know who I am, and we've only spent a couple of times together, and you've imagined this intense thing?"
除了邪恶和精神病的部分，你明白为什么他会说：“你不知道我是谁，我们才在一起过几次，你就想象出这种激烈的事情？”
Well, yes.
嗯，是的。
I suppose on a certain level, he had his point.
我想在某种程度上，他有他的观点。
He had his point.
他有他的观点。
But he was so resolutely and methodically cruel to me.
但他对我却如此坚决、有条不紊地残酷。
There was a definite turning moment, where he just decided to kind of play things a different way.
有一个明确的转折时刻，他决定以不同的方式玩东西。
I asked him if he wanted to see me again over the weekend.
我问他周末是否想再次见到我。
And he turned to me and said, "I don't know.
他转向我说：“我不知道。
Do you want to?" And I said, "Yes, I do.
你愿意吗？”我说：“是的，我愿意。
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Definitely." And he started repeating my words, "Yes.
绝对是。”他开始重复我的话：“是的。
Definitely.
绝对是。
Absolutely." And then he said, "Well, I'm sorry.
绝对是的。”然后他说：“好吧，我很抱歉。
I have a friend coming into town for the weekend." And he made this friend sound like, of course, a longstanding affair from way back.
我有一个朋友来城里度周末。”当然，他让这位朋友听起来就像是很久以前的老朋友了。
So when he saw that I was disappointed, he jumped on me.
所以当他看到我很失望时，他就向我扑来。
And he said, "What's the matter?
他说：“怎么了？
Did I burst your balloon, destroy the fantasy?"
我有没有戳破你的气球，摧毁你的幻想？”
Sylvere, one way to read this story of what happened is that Chris had a crush.
西尔维尔，解读这个故事的一种方式是克里斯迷恋他。
And by having her write all these letters, by encouraging her to write all these letters, that you unconsciously, perhaps, created a situation where she would have all these things to present to Dick, and he would reject her.
通过让她写所有这些信，通过鼓励她写所有这些信，你也许无意识地创造了一种情况，她将所有这些东西呈现给迪克，而他会拒绝她。
Maybe you're right in the sense that both of us started writing letters, making it very difficult for him to have a position in relation to it.
也许你是对的，因为我们俩都开始写信，这使得他很难拥有与此相关的立场。
It wasn't as if something was happening between him and a woman.
他和一个女人之间并没有发生什么事情。
It was a whole marriage that was coming down on his knees.
整个婚姻都向他屈服了。
That's what you mean.
这就是你的意思。
And I think it's right.
我认为这是对的。
And I guess it was something in the back of my mind, yes.
我想这是我内心深处的一些想法，是的。
As long as we made it a project and we were together, that started in such a way that may have made it impossible to turn into a private affair, because it was, to start with, so public.
只要我们把它作为一个项目并且我们在一起，它的开始方式可能就不可能变成私人事务，因为它从一开始就是公开的。
After some time, Chris and Sylvere were reconciled.
一段时间后，克里斯和西尔维尔和解了。
They're still married, but their jobs have now taken them to opposite sides of the country.
他们仍然结婚了，但他们的工作现在把他们带到了这个国家的两端。
He lives on the East Coast.
他住在东海岸。
She lives on the West.
她住在西边。
They talk every day, or nearly every day.
他们每天都会说话，或者几乎每天都会说话。
They lean on each other, share their lives.
他们互相依靠，分享生活。
And for now, they're non-monogamous.
目前，他们还不是一夫一妻制。
Each of them sees other people from time to time.
他们每个人都会时不时地见到其他人。
We married, and things keep changing.
我们结婚了，事情一直在变化。
In a sense, we see each other for a week once a month, sometimes more, sometimes less.
从某种意义上说，我们每个月见一次面，有时多，有时少。
And we spend time together.
我们一起度过时光。
We enjoy being together.
我们很享受在一起。
Most often, we feel very close.
大多数时候，我们感觉非常亲密。
And we manage, I guess, after a few years, to keep this closeness in spite of other involvements that we are in.
我想，几年后，尽管我们参与了其他事务，但我们还是设法保持了这种亲密关系。
Some of them may be final.
其中一些可能是最终的。
We don't know.
我们不知道。
It's a very shaky proposition, in the sense that you get carried away by the situation you're in.
这是一个非常不稳定的提议，因为你会被自己所处的情况冲昏头脑。
We live in totally different situations.
我们生活在完全不同的环境中。
So the risk is always there that something is going to happen and make it final.
因此，风险始终存在，某些事情将会发生并最终完成。
It's after having gone through this experience together-- and at every moment, really, we were in it together.
这是在一起经历了这段经历之后——实际上，我们每时每刻都在一起。
In all of my pain, in all of his pain, we were there together with each other, because we didn't have any other way of being.
在我所有的痛苦中，在他所有的痛苦中，我们都在一起，因为我们没有任何其他的存在方式。
After going through that, well, it just seems inevitable to us that, one way or another, we will be intimately connected.
经历过这一切之后，我们似乎不可避免地会以某种方式建立密切的联系。
We will be responsible for each other for the rest of our lives.
我们将在余生中互相负责。
When you think about this whole experience, what do you think you learned from it?
当你思考这整个经历时，你认为你从中学到了什么？
Yeah.
是的。
Sylvere Well, I learned that you have to pay for indulgence, because, at some level, it was also indulgent.
西尔维尔 好吧，我知道你必须为放纵付出代价，因为在某种程度上，这也是放纵。
It was a project.
这是一个项目。
It was a risky operation.
这是一次危险的操作。
It was also playing with fire.
这也是在玩火。
I think the thing that most of us find so threatening about a non-monogamous relationship is we just don't want to have to go through the jealousy.
我认为我们大多数人对非一夫一妻制关系感到如此威胁的是我们只是不想经历嫉妒。
I know.
我知道。
But I guess if you've been through the jealousy to the extent that I have been and I'm sure other people have been, and you learn from it.
但我想，如果你像我一样经历过嫉妒，我相信其他人也经历过，你就会从中学习。
And what you learn is that there are ways of avoiding it.
您了解到，有一些方法可以避免这种情况。
And one of the ways is not try to imagine what the other person is doing and try not to have images or to focus on that.
其中一种方法是不要试图想象对方在做什么，并尽量不去想象或集中注意力。
And you realize that the partner can very well have a life.
你意识到伴侣可以很好地拥有自己的生活。
And you don't have to take it as something that concerns you.
而且您不必将其视为与您有关的事情。
See, it concerns the person.
你看，这关系到人。
It's not done to do you harm.
这样做并不是为了伤害你。
It's not done to betray you.
这样做不是为了背叛你。
It's done because the other person has a life.
这是因为对方有自己的生活。
The whole question of faithfulness and fidelity seems so-- I don't know, small, compared to loyalty and a lifetime commitment to another person.
与忠诚和对另一个人的终生承诺相比，忠诚和忠诚的整个问题似乎很小——我不知道。
Sylvere Lotringer and Chris Kraus.
西尔维尔·洛特林格和克里斯·克劳斯。
She collected their letters, plus an account of what happened, in a book called I Love Dick, published by Semiotext(e).
她将他们的信件以及所发生的事情收集在一本名为《我爱迪克》的书中，由 Semiotext(e) 出版。
Coming up, 82 monogamous couples, 82 non-monogamous couples.
接下来是 82 对一夫一妻制的夫妇，82 对非一夫一妻制的夫妇。
Who's happier?
谁更幸福？
Who's more likely to stay married?
谁更有可能维持婚姻？
Answers, real answers, in a minute, from Public Radio International when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，国际公共广播电台将立即给出答案，真正的答案。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week, of course, we choose a theme, invite a variety of writers, performers and other people to come on and tell us stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们都会选择一个主题，邀请各种作家、表演者和其他人来给我们讲述有关该主题的故事。
Today's program, monogamy and its discontents, people struggling with monogamy, grasping for alternatives.
今天的节目，一夫一妻制及其不满，人们与一夫一妻制作斗争，寻找替代方案。
We have reached the second act of our program, Act Two, Love and Happiness.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕，第二幕，爱与幸福。
I think, for most of us, our first reaction when we hear about non-monogamous arrangements that couples sometimes have is that queasy feeling you get when you hear about somebody's life that you would not want to ever be your own.
我认为，对于我们大多数人来说，当我们听到夫妻间有时会有的非一夫一妻制安排时，我们的第一反应是当您听到某人的生活时您会感到恶心，因为您不想成为自己的生活。
How can these people possibly be happy?
这些人怎么可能幸福呢？
In this act, Dan Savage explains.
在这一幕中，丹·萨维奇解释道。
A warning before he begins-- he talks about sex in this story.
在开始之前有一个警告——他在这个故事中谈到了性。
Nothing explicit or graphic, but the subject does come up.
没有任何明确或形象的内容，但主题确实出现了。
With apologies to Leo Tolstoy, monogamous couples are all alike.
向列夫·托尔斯泰道歉，一夫一妻制的夫妻都是相似的。
Each non-monogamous couple is non-monogamous in its own way.
每对非一夫一妻制的夫妇都有自己的非一夫一妻制。
For a non-monogamous arrangement to function properly-- "properly" meaning no blood, no tears-- both persons involved have to agree on a set of rules.
为了让非一夫一妻制的安排正常运作——“正确”意味着不流血、不流泪——双方都必须就一套规则达成一致。
The rules of monogamy are pretty simple and straightforward.
一夫一妻制的规则非常简单明了。
After you've said, "Honey, let's not have sex with other people," what's left to discuss?
当你说“亲爱的，我们不要和其他人发生性关系”之后，还可以讨论什么？
But functional non-monogamy, the having of sex with persons other than your partner, with your partner's foreknowledge and consent, well, that sort of an arrangement requires some delicate negotiation.
但功能性的非一夫一妻制，即与伴侣以外的人发生性关系，并在伴侣的事先知情和同意的情况下，这种安排需要一些微妙的谈判。
If it's OK with you for your partner to have sex with other people, does that mean it's OK for your partner to have sex with other people under any circumstances?
如果您同意您的伴侣与其他人发生性关系，这是否意味着您的伴侣在任何情况下都可以与其他人发生性关系？
In the bed you share?
你们共用一张床上吗？
With your best friend?
和你最好的朋友？
Probably not.
可能不会。
And that's where the rules come in.
这就是规则的用武之地。
The rules vary from couple to couple.
规则因情侣而异。
I've heard of couples who weren't allowed to sleep with each other's friends or with their exes.
我听说有些情侣不被允许与彼此的朋友或前任一起睡觉。
Not in our apartment, house, bed, is a common one.
在我们的公寓、房子、床上都不是常见的。
I've been in three non-monogamous relationships.
我经历过三种非一夫一妻制的关系。
In one, we could sleep with other people so long as we weren't in the same time zone.
其中之一是，只要我们不在同一时区，我们就可以和其他人一起睡觉。
In another, outside encounters were limited to a certain few and very specific sex acts that, for a certain few and very specific reasons, we didn't enjoy doing together.
在另一种情况下，外部接触仅限于某些少数且非常具体的性行为，由于某些少数且非常具体的原因，我们不喜欢一起做这些行为。
One straight couple I recently heard about has a rule that requires them to lie to each other.
我最近听说一对异性恋夫妇有一条规则，要求他们互相撒谎。
Not just lie, but lie convincingly.
不仅是谎言，而且是令人信服的谎言。
The idea seems to be that it's OK if they sleep with other people.
这个想法似乎是，如果他们和其他人一起睡也没关系。
They're just not allowed to make the other person feel bad by actually letting them know about it.
他们只是不允许让对方知道这件事而让对方感到难过。
A clumsy lie would be as bad as telling them.
一个拙劣的谎言和告诉他们一样糟糕。
I interviewed one woman who was in a non-monogamous relationship for three years.
我采访了一位处于非一夫一妻制关系三年的女性。
The rules were very jokey.
规则非常有趣。
The rules were mostly centered around making sure that nobody got involved with somebody who was better than the person they're already involved with, which was each other.
这些规则主要集中在确保没有人与比他们已经交往的人（即彼此）更好的人交往。
So I wouldn't want him to have sex with someone who was terribly sexy or smart or witty or funny--
所以我不希望他和一个非常性感、聪明、机智或有趣的人发生性关系——
So nobody sexier, smarter, wittier, or funnier than you.
所以没有人比你更性感、更聪明、更诙谐或更有趣。
No, they all had to be a little bit lame.
不，他们都必须有点蹩脚。
The rules seem to fall into three broad categories-- who you can have sex with, under what circumstances, and what you can tell your partner about it.
这些规则似乎分为三大类——你可以与谁发生性关系，在什么情况下发生，以及你可以告诉你的伴侣什么。
It's that third set of rules that are the stickiest.
这是最棘手的第三组规则。
How much do you want to know?
你想知道多少？
If your partner has sex with a tree in a forest and you're not around to hear it, did it actually happen?
如果你的伴侣与森林里的一棵树发生性关系，而你却没有听到，这真的发生过吗？
The woman I interviewed made a non-disclosure pact with her boyfriend.
我采访的那位女士与她的男朋友签订了保密协议。
But ultimately, they couldn't live up to their "don't ask, don't tell" policy.
但最终，他们无法履行“不问、不说”的政策。
They began sharing their experiences with each other, which resulted in competition.
他们开始互相分享经验，这导致了竞争。
If one got some on the side, the other felt entitled and would go looking for it.
如果一个人得到了一些，另一个人就会觉得自己有权利并会去寻找它。
Breaking their own "don't ask, don't tell" rule was complicating their arrangement, which begs the biggest question of all.
打破他们自己的“不问，不说”规则使他们的安排变得复杂，这引出了最大的问题。
Do these non-monogamous arrangements work?
这些非一夫一妻制的安排有效吗？
Was this couple happy?
这对夫妻幸福吗？
Well, it worked and it didn't work.
嗯，它起作用了，但它不起作用。
There was a part of me that felt like being non-monogamous sort of created this hollow core in the center of the relationship.
我内心的一部分感觉自己是非一夫一妻制，在关系的中心创造了这个空心的核心。
Like I really loved this person, but I wasn't sure I could trust him as far as I could throw him.
就像我真的很爱这个人，但我不确定我是否可以信任他。
You didn't fully possess him.
你还没有完全占有他。
Woman I didn't fully possess him.
女人我没有完全占有他。
And I think part of it was I didn't want to be fully possessed.
我认为部分原因是我不想被完全占有。
Back when she was in her non-monogamous relationship, all her straight friends thought she was crazy.
当她处于非一夫一妻制关系时，她所有的异性恋朋友都认为她疯了。
Her gay friends, however, were supportive and provided her and her boyfriend with role models.
然而，她的同性恋朋友很支持她，并为她和她的男朋友树立了榜样。
Non-monogamy is more common among gay couples than straight or lesbian couples.
非一夫一妻制在同性恋伴侣中比异性恋或女同性恋伴侣更常见。
It makes some gay politicos uncomfortable when anyone points this out.
当有人指出这一点时，一些同性恋政客会感到不舒服。
But every study of long-term male couples has demonstrated this.
但每一项针对长期男性伴侣的研究都证明了这一点。
Sometimes, gay couples even skip a formal rules conversation, so established are non-monogamous relationship models in the gay community.
有时，同性恋伴侣甚至跳过正式的规则对话，从而在同性恋社区中建立了非一夫一妻制的关系模式。
I think non-monogamy is easier for a lot of gay men because gay men think about sex differently than straight people do.
我认为非一夫一妻制对很多男同性恋者来说更容易，因为男同性恋者对性的看法与异性恋不同。
We recognize that different sex acts carry different degrees of intimacy.
我们认识到不同的性行为具有不同程度的亲密感。
Many non-monogamous gay couples have a rule that stems from this commonsense notion.
许多非一夫一妻制的同性恋伴侣都有一条源于这一常识概念的规则。
Outside sex is OK, goes the rule, so long as it does not include penetration.
按照规则，户外性行为是可以的，只要不包括插入。
This rule allows for outside encounters, protects both partners from disease, and holds in reserve a few especially intimate sex acts that the gay couple, while non-monogamous, share only with each other.
这条规则允许在外面相遇，保护双方免受疾病的侵害，并保留一些特别亲密的性行为，同性恋伴侣虽然不是一夫一妻制，但只能彼此分享。
Since so many straight people-- not all, but many-- can't imagine having sex without intercourse, this rule just wouldn't work as well for them.
由于很多异性恋者——不是全部，但很多——无法想象没有性交的性行为，这条规则对他们来说不太适用。
My friend Dave is gay, and he's currently in a non-monogamous relationship.
我的朋友戴夫是同性恋，他目前处于非一夫一妻制关系中。
The rules we set down came about without really speaking of them.
我们制定的规则是在没有真正谈论它们的情况下制定的。
We just had a friend over, and things got kind of saucy.
我们刚刚请了一位朋友过来，事情变得有点俏皮。
And we found ourselves goofing around with a third person.
我们发现自己正在和第三个人闲逛。
And--
还有——
Very often, when gay men talk about these open arrangements or something, they'll use words and phrases like "goofing around" or "playing," and all these sort of harmless sounding-- whereas when straight people talk about it, it's like you "had sex" with another person.
很多时候，当男同性恋者谈论这些开放的安排或其他事情时，他们会使用诸如“闲逛”或“玩耍”之类的单词和短语，以及所有这些听起来无害的声音——而当异性恋者谈论它时，就好像你和另一个人“发生了性关系”。
One of the things about gay sex that I sometimes think straight people have a hard time understanding is the possibility of having sort of Boy Scouty, camaraderie sex, where you're just sort of goofing around, to get back to that phrase.
我有时认为异性恋者很难理解同性恋的一件事，那就是有可能发生童子军式的友情性行为，你只是在闲逛，回到那句话。
You think that's part of the difference between--
你认为这是区别的一部分——
Absolutely.
绝对的。
It truly is goofing around.
确实是在闲逛。
It's mashing, it's making out, it's rolling around, because it's got to stay physically very superficial.
它是捣碎的，它是亲热的，它是滚来滚去的，因为它必须保持在物理上非常肤浅。
As I said earlier, I was in three non-monogamous relationships-- past tense.
正如我之前所说，我处于三种非一夫一妻制的关系中——过去时态。
All of them ended.
一切都结束了。
And the woman I spoke with earlier is no longer in her non-monogamous relationship.
我之前交谈过的那位女士不再处于非一夫一妻制的关系中。
Judging from just her and me, you would think non-monogamous relationships don't last.
仅从她和我来看，你会认为非一夫一妻制的关系不会持久。
Well, you'd be wrong.
好吧，你错了。
Dr. Arline Rubin conducted the single largest study comparing non-monogamous couples to monogamous ones.
阿琳·鲁宾 (Arline Rubin) 博士进行了一项规模最大的研究，对非一夫一妻制夫妇与一夫一妻制夫妇进行了比较。
Dr. Rubin interviewed 164 couples, half monogamous, half not, and did follow-up interviews with all 164 couples after 5, 10, and 19 years.
鲁宾博士采访了 164 对夫妇，其中一半是一夫一妻制，一半不是，并在 5 年、10 年和 19 年后对所有 164 对夫妇进行了跟踪采访。
Dr. Rubin discovered that there was no difference.
鲁宾博士发现没有什么区别。
Non-monogamous couples were just as happy or just as miserable as monogamous ones.
非一夫一妻制的夫妇与一夫一妻制的夫妇一样幸福或一样痛苦。
And the number of couples who stayed together was exactly the same.
而在一起的情侣数量也完全一样。
Non-monogamy was no indication of instability or a lack of commitment.
非一夫一妻制并不表示不稳定或缺乏承诺。
According to Dr. Rubin, whether a couple is monogamous has nothing to do with how long they stay together.
鲁宾博士认为，夫妻是否实行一夫一妻制与他们在一起的时间长短无关。
Dave and his boyfriend, Eric, had been together for five years, and they're still going strong.
戴夫和他的男朋友埃里克已经在一起五年了，而且他们的关系仍然很牢固。
What would you say to people who assert that monogamy in a relationship is an indication of the seriousness of the relationship?
对于那些断言关系中的一夫一妻制是关系严肃性的标志的人，您有何看法？
That if two people are being monogamous, obviously, they're in it for the long haul, and they take their relationship seriously, and they put each other first, whereas if people are in a non-monogamous relationship, obviously, they're more casual about each other and their relationship isn't going to last as long.
如果两个人实行一夫一妻制，显然他们会长期相处，他们认真对待他们的关系，把彼此放在第一位，而如果人们处于非一夫一妻制关系，显然，他们对彼此会更加随意，他们的关系不会持续太久。
As for the first part of that, that monogamy is the sign of a true relationship, I would say, if it's true for you, then it's true.
至于第一部分，一夫一妻制是真正关系的标志，我想说，如果这对你来说是真的，那么它就是真的。
As for the assumption that a non-monogamous relationship is inherently less valuable or less committed, I would disagree just on the fact that the conversations that Eric and I have had to have in maintaining a somewhat open relationship have brought about a level of intimacy we wouldn't have tapped any other way.
至于非一夫一妻制关系本质上价值较低或忠诚度较低的假设，我不同意这一事实，即埃里克和我在维持某种程度开放的关系时必须进行的对话带来了一定程度的亲密关系，这是我们无法通过任何其他方式利用的。
I mean, it seems like everybody talks about monogamy as something that you do for somebody else, that I will be faithful to you because I love you.
我的意思是，似乎每个人都将一夫一妻制视为你为别人做的事情，我会忠实于你，因为我爱你。
But I actually came to feel like non-monogamy was something that you could do for somebody else.
但我实际上开始觉得非一夫一妻制是你可以为别人做的事情。
You could let them be who they were and still love them and still be committed to them.
你可以让他们做他们本来的样子，但仍然爱他们，仍然忠于他们。
The other assumption that is often made about non-monogamy is that it's a phase.
关于非一夫一妻制经常做出的另一个假设是它是一个阶段。
A couple may open their relationship for a time, but they will, once they get serious, return to monogamy.
一对夫妇可能会暂时开放他们的关系，但一旦认真起来，他们就会回到一夫一妻制。
Dr. Rubin's studies have shown that this isn't true either.
鲁宾博士的研究表明这也不是真的。
The couples she followed, all straight and now all in their late 50s and 60s, with houses, mortgages, and kids, as their marriages went on, these couples pretty much stuck to what they'd been doing all along, whether it was monogamy or non-monogamy.
她跟踪的夫妇，全都是异性恋，现在都已经50多岁和60多岁了，有房子、有抵押贷款、有孩子，随着婚姻的继续，这些夫妇几乎坚持他们一直以来所做的事情，无论是一夫一妻制还是非一夫一妻制。
So it isn't an experiment or a phase.
所以这不是一个实验或一个阶段。
It's a choice.
这是一个选择。
And like Dave says, it works for the couples that it works for.
正如戴夫所说，它适用于它所适用的夫妇。
Dan Savage writes a syndicated sex advice column, Savage Love .
丹·萨维奇 (Dan Savage) 撰写联合性建议专栏《萨维奇之爱》(Savage Love)。
He also works at The Stranger , a newspaper in Seattle.
他还在西雅图的一家报纸《陌生人》工作。
Act Three, Istanbul.
第三幕，伊斯坦布尔。
So where does this leave most of us, the rest of us?
那么，这对我们大多数人以及其他人来说意味着什么呢？
Where does it leave those of us who understand what it is that we actually sacrifice to be monogamous-- adventure, surprise-- but also understand what we would be sacrificing, what difficulties and jealousies we might be subjecting ourselves to if we were non-monogamous?
我们这些人明白我们为了一夫一妻制实际上要牺牲什么——冒险、惊喜——但也明白我们会牺牲什么，如果我们不是一夫一妻制，我们可能会遇到什么困难和嫉妒，那么我们这些人又在哪里呢？
Where does this leave us?
这给我们留下了什么？
Well, Ian Brown has these thoughts.
嗯，伊恩·布朗有这些想法。
There's a couple across my street who make love in their living room.
我街对面有一对夫妇在客厅里做爱。
I hear them in the evening when I walk after dinner.
晚上我晚饭后散步时会听到它们的声音。
From the sidewalk, I can see cream walls, a mantel draped in animal hides, African carvings.
从人行道上，我可以看到奶油色的墙壁、覆盖着兽皮的壁炉架和非洲雕刻。
The woman makes most of the noise, mid-range "ohs" a second apart, dropping like small, crystal cups out of the open French windows of their flat.
大部分的噪音都是女人发出的，中间间隔一秒发出“哦”声，像小水晶杯一样从他们公寓开着的落地窗里掉下来。
Passion and disregard for the neighbors, a tremendous combination.
热情和对邻居的漠视，是一个巨大的结合。
The air stops moving around me.
我周围的空气停止流动。
Is their sex better than my own?
他们的性别比我的好吗？
I wonder what she looks like when she's moaning.
我想知道她呻吟时的样子。
Does she love him?
她爱他吗？
Presuming it's a him, which I always do.
假设是他，我总是这样做。
Or is she there just for the sex?
或者她只是为了性？
I can never decide which would be more exciting.
我永远无法决定哪个会更令人兴奋。
I imagine she's in her 30s and that she has dark hair, an ordinary woman with ordinary chores, whose passion is nonetheless excitingly unsuppressable in the evening.
我想象她三十多岁，有一头黑发，一个平凡的女人，做着平凡的家务，但到了晚上，她的激情却令人兴奋地难以抑制。
But which woman is it?
但到底是哪个女人呢？
Is the moaner the doctor who just had a baby, only now returning to sex?
呻吟者是刚刚生完孩子、现在才恢复性生活的医生吗？
The Mexican girl who works out all the time at the gym?
那个一直在健身房锻炼的墨西哥女孩？
Or the Chinese caterer, the woman who drives the Volvo with Ohio license plates?
或者是那位开着俄亥俄州牌照的沃尔沃汽车的中国餐饮服务商？
Her cries never last more than half a block.
她的哭声从来不会持续超过半个街区。
Walking back to my house, I usually have a few bent, embarrassed thoughts.
走回家的路上，我常常会有一些弯曲、尴尬的想法。
I think, you're a 39-year-old married man who stands in front of his house, listening to an unseen couple make love.
我想，你是一个39岁的已婚男人，站在自家门前，听着一对看不见的情侣做爱。
You're sick.
你病了。
But I keep stepping out there, hoping to hear that little duet.
但我一直走出去，希望能听到那首小二重唱。
My wife wants to have a baby.
我的妻子想要一个孩子。
And it's not just talk or a plan she inherited at birth or the fantasizing she used to practice with her girlfriends-- "Well, I want to have four." No, this is different, more insistent.
这不仅仅是说说而已，也不仅仅是她出生时继承的计划，也不仅仅是她过去和女朋友一起练习的幻想——“好吧，我想要四个。”不，这是不同的，更加坚持。
"When would you like to start?" she said again this morning, third time in a week, as we read the newspaper over breakfast.
“你想什么时候开始？”今天早上，当我们一边吃早餐一边看报纸时，她又说了一遍，这是一周内的第三次。
The sun was already bearing down furiously at half past 8:00 in the goddamn morning.
早上八点半，太阳已经猛烈地落山了。
I could hear the buzz of a weed whacker next door.
我能听到隔壁除草机的嗡嗡声。
"Anytime you like," I said, not taking my eyes off the paper.
“任何时候都可以，”我说，眼睛没有离开报纸。
I didn't want to encourage her because the truth is this.
我不想鼓励她，因为事实就是这样。
Some days, I'm for it.
有时候，我会支持它。
But when I'm not for it, I'm really not for it.
但当我不喜欢它时，我真的不喜欢它。
My wife's body has changed.
我妻子的身体发生了变化。
Her body, overtaken by hormonal committee, is telling her to get on with its grandest physical purpose.
她的身体被荷尔蒙委员会控制，告诉她要继续实现其最宏伟的身体目标。
I can see it in the slight post-marital widening of her hips, no less sexy than the originals, but still, wider, when she lilts away from the bed at night to perform her ablutions.
我可以从她婚后轻微变宽的臀部看出这一点，性感程度不亚于原来，但当她晚上轻快地离开床去洗礼时，仍然更宽。
I can see it in her taste in clothes.
我可以从她对衣服的品味中看出这一点。
She doesn't go anymore for the sprayed-on Lycra skirts I used to buy her.
她不再喜欢我以前给她买的喷涂莱卡裙子了。
Even in her sexual habits-- she has less interest in sex than she used to.
甚至在她的性习惯上——她对性的兴趣也比以前少了。
She wants to make love now, for keeps.
她现在想要做爱，永远做爱。
Pause here for sadness.
在这里暂停一下，以表达悲伤。
Last week, as if by magic, two baby books appeared in the pile on the floor on her side of the bed-- at the bottom of the pile, but there they were.
上周，就像变魔术一样，两本婴儿读物出现在她床边地板上的一堆书上——在这堆书的底部，但它们就在那里。
I walked into the bedroom, saw them like a promise I made long ago, and had to leave the house.
我走进卧室，看到他们就像我早已许下的诺言，不得不离开家。
I went to a matinee.
我去看了一场日场表演。
When did all that happen?
这一切是什么时候发生的？
I can't remember anything.
我什么都不记得了。
The dates of our courtship, the countless touching things she claims I said, they're at best a blur to me, a fog of declarations.
我们求爱的日期，她声称我说过的无数感人的话，它们对我来说充其量是模糊的，是宣言的迷雾。
One day, I was living my comfortable life.
有一天，我过上了舒适的生活。
And the next, she was living with me.
接下来，她就和我住在一起了。
On a bad day, it makes me nervous to remember all this.
在糟糕的一天，想起这一切让我感到紧张。
On a bad day, when I think about the slow gelling of our togetherness, its gathering weight and formality, the muscle around my heart closes in and my breath come short and I start to panic.
在糟糕的一天，当我想到我们的团结慢慢凝结，它的重量和形式越来越多时，我心脏周围的肌肉收缩，我的呼吸急促，我开始恐慌。
One day, she and I were dating.
有一天，我和她约会。
And then we were living together.
然后我们就住在一起了。
And then we bought a house.
然后我们买了房子。
And then we'd married.
然后我们就结婚了。
And then she wanted to have a baby.
然后她想要一个孩子。
An escalator of commitments onto which I had apparently stepped.
我显然已经踏上了承诺的自动扶梯。
My friends were astonished.
我的朋友们都很惊讶。
They said I wasn't the type to marry.
他们说我不适合结婚。
A few of them had made bets against it.
他们中的一些人对此下了注。
I told them I wanted "to find out what lay on the other side of boredom." I stole that line from an old girlfriend.
我告诉他们我想“找出无聊的另一面是什么”。这句话是我从一位前女友那里偷来的。
I thought I was an adventurer.
我以为我是一个冒险家。
And yet, here I stand, in a well-trimmed front yard, surrounded by neighbors and swing sets and sport utility vehicles, the movable monuments of domesticity, listening to a couple copulate.
然而，我站在这儿，在一个修剪整齐的前院，周围是邻居、秋千和运动型多用途车，这些都是家庭生活的可移动的纪念碑，听着一对情侣的交配。
And across the yards, I see another man looking warily back at me, doing exactly the same thing.
在院子对面，我看到另一个男人警惕地回头看着我，做着同样的事情。
Just because I'm married now and practicing what's known as monogamy doesn't mean I don't think about other women, because I do.
仅仅因为我现在已婚并实行所谓的一夫一妻制，并不意味着我不考虑其他女性，因为我确实考虑过。
I still conjure up women from my past.
我仍然会想起过去的女人。
And I still ask myself the question.
我仍然问自己这个问题。
You know the question.
你知道这个问题。
Every man does.
每个男人都这样。
Women have their own version of it.
女性有自己的版本。
The question is the question you ask yourself every time you see a woman on the street, every single time, no matter who she is, how old she is, no matter how attractive she is or isn't.
这个问题是你每次在街上看到一个女人时都会问自己的问题，无论她是谁，她多大，无论她有多有吸引力或不那么有吸引力。
And the question is, "Would I sleep with her, or her, or how about her?" Not "Will I sleep with her?" or "How can I sleep with her?" or even "Could I sleep with her?" The question is, "Would I?" But even though I always ask the question, I don't act on it, because I'm trying to be monogamous.
问题是，“我会和她一起睡，还是她，或者她怎么样？”不是“我会和她一起睡吗？”或“我怎样才能和她睡觉？”甚至“我可以和她一起睡吗？”问题是：“我会吗？”但即使我总是问这个问题，我也不会采取行动，因为我试图保持一夫一妻制。
That's why monogamy has such a bad reputation.
这就是为什么一夫一妻制的名声如此不好。
It's boring.
很无聊。
Monogamy is the habit of not acting on what you want.
一夫一妻制是一种不按照自己的意愿行事的习惯。
I even hate the word itself.
我什至讨厌这个词本身。
It sound so staid, so bourgeois.
听起来很古板，很资产阶级。
Monogamy, like a board game, the approximation of excitement.
一夫一妻制，就像棋盘游戏一样，近似兴奋。
Sometimes, of course, I hear about open marriages.
当然，有时我也会听说开放式婚姻。
Jung had one, Sartre had one, Henry Miller, Dickens, Freud.
荣格有一个，萨特有一个，亨利·米勒、狄更斯、弗洛伊德都有。
I hear about open marriages, and they seem like some fabulous, exotic city that I've always wanted to visit but never seem to get to.
我听说过开放式婚姻，它们似乎是一座神话般的、充满异国情调的城市，我一直想去参观，但似乎从未去过。
Istanbul.
伊斯坦布尔。
Open marriages are like Istanbul, some ancient, mysterious place where there are minarets and strange music, where one entire civilization suddenly ends and a whole new, stranger one begins.
开放式婚姻就像伊斯坦布尔，一个古老而神秘的地方，那里有尖塔和奇怪的音乐，整个文明突然结束，一个全新的、陌生的文明开始。
A whole new religion, even, the mysterious East.
一种全新的宗教，甚至是神秘的东方。
I've always wanted to go to Istanbul.
我一直想去伊斯坦布尔。
Like most couples, my wife and I sometimes talk about open marriage.
像大多数夫妇一样，我和我的妻子有时会谈论开放式婚姻。
Well, I say we talk about it.
好吧，我说我们谈谈吧。
It'd be more accurate to say that the subject comes up and immediately lies down again.
更准确的说法是对象出现后立即又躺下。
We'll be lying in bed in the dark and talking about our lives, about what we like and what we miss, in that quiet, pleasant way you do when you're trying to be monogamous.
我们会在黑暗中躺在床上，谈论我们的生活，谈论我们喜欢什么和怀念什么，就像你试图实行一夫一妻制时那样安静、愉快。
Then my wife will say in the dark, "You know, if you ever have sex with someone else, some passing fling, I don't want you to tell me about it." And I say, "Really?"
然后我的妻子会在黑暗中说：“你知道，如果你曾经和别人发生过性关系，或者是短暂的风流韵事，我不想让你告诉我这件事。”我说：“真的吗？”
I say, "Really?" because I don't know what else to say.
我说：“真的吗？”因为我不知道还能说什么。
If I say, "OK, Honey, that's fine with me," she'll say, "What, are you thinking about it?" And then I'll have to say, "Of course not," even if I am.
如果我说：“好吧，亲爱的，我没意见，”她会说，“什么，你在考虑吗？”然后我不得不说：“当然不是”，即使我是。
So I say, "Really?" Or I'll say something noncommittal, like, "Don't worry." Whatever I say, a few minutes go by.
所以我说：“真的吗？”或者我会说一些不置可否的话，比如“别担心。”不管我说什么，几分钟就过去了。
And then she always says, still in the dark, "But I don't want you to sleep with someone else, anyway.
然后她总是在黑暗中说：“但无论如何，我不想让你和别人睡。
OK?" And I say, "OK." That's the kind of conversation you have when you agree to be monogamous.
好吗？”我说：“好吧。”当你同意实行一夫一妻制时，就会进行这样的对话。
I don't want to sleep with anyone else.
我不想和别人一起睡
Or to be more exact, I'd like to, but I really don't have the constitution for infidelity or for an open marriage or for the guilt.
或者更准确地说，我愿意，但我真的没有不忠或开放婚姻或内疚的宪法。
Monogamy may be boring, but the alternatives take up a lot more time and energy.
一夫一妻制可能很无聊，但其他选择会花费更多的时间和精力。
When I hear stories about the president and I think, he must have an arrangement with Hillary, I think, gee, that must be great.
当我听到有关总统的故事时，我想，他一定和希拉里有安排，我想，天哪，那一定很棒。
But some part of me also feels-- not disappointed, not morally outraged, nothing that loud and sharp and pompous, but-- sad.
但我内心的某些部分也感到——不是失望，不是道德上的愤怒，也没有那么大声、尖锐和浮夸，而是——悲伤。
That's the word-- sad.
就是这个词——悲伤。
And I'm not sure I know why.
我不确定我知道为什么。
I'm not even sure I know why I'm trying to stay monogamous.
我什至不确定我为什么要努力保持一夫一妻制。
Why have I chosen this route over the other?
为什么我选择这条路线而不是另一条？
I don't pretend it has anything to do with moral standards.
我不假装这与道德标准有任何关系。
In fact, I suspect it comes down to something my wife once said to me.
事实上，我怀疑这可以归结为我妻子曾经对我说过的话。
We were having one of our conversational minuets in the dark, one of our gentle but ever so delicate chats about faithfulness, when my wife said that the only thing she missed as a monogamous woman-- at least I assume she was speaking as a monogamous woman-- was newness, new bodies, new hands, new sex.
我们正在黑暗中进行一场对话小步舞，一场关于忠诚的温柔而又微妙的谈话，这时我的妻子说，作为一个一夫一妻制的女人，她唯一怀念的东西——至少我认为她是以一个一夫一妻制的女人的身份说话的——就是新鲜感、新的身体、新的双手、新的性。
I said I knew what she meant.
我说我知道她的意思。
And I said, "But isn't that kind of sad?
我说：“但这不是很悲伤吗？
I mean, if you go through your whole life, 20, 30, 40, 60 years of marriage without ever straying, you do that, you never get to know what it's like to be unfaithful.
我的意思是，如果你一生，20年、30年、40年、60年的婚姻都没有出轨，那么你就永远不会知道不忠是什么感觉。
You never get to know what it feels like to be emotionally illegal.
你永远不会知道情感上违法是什么感觉。
And that's an important feeling, one of the great human themes, after all, a whole constellation of humanity you'll never know."
这是一种重要的感觉，是伟大的人类主题之一，毕竟，你永远不会了解整个人类星座。”
My wife was quiet for a long time.
妻子沉默了很长一段时间。
And I could hear the fridge downstairs.
我能听到楼下冰箱的声音。
And in the street light coming through the curtains, I could just see her outline.
在透过窗帘照进来的路灯下，我只能看到她的轮廓。
And I thought to myself, I've spent a long time in this bed.
我心里想，我在这张床上已经呆了很长时间了。
"Yes," my wife said then, "That's true.
“是的，”我妻子说道，“确实如此。
But if you do sleep around, you'll never know what it's like to be faithful to one person your whole life, which might also be an 'important constellation of humanity.'" There was just a touch of sarcasm in her voice.
但如果你真的睡了，你永远不会知道一生忠于一个人是什么感觉，这也可能是‘人类的重要星座’。”她的声音里带着一丝讽刺。
And then it was my turn to lie in the dark for a long time.
然后轮到我在黑暗中躺了很长一段时间。
I'd never considered monogamy as an adventure.
我从来不认为一夫一妻制是一种冒险。
I thought it was, well, domestic travel, where no international borders are crossed.
我认为这是国内旅行，不跨越国际边界。
But monogamy is an adventure, and in some ways, a more mysterious one than open marriage.
但一夫一妻制是一种冒险，在某些方面，比开放式婚姻更神秘。
Because trying to be faithful to one person is a trip that takes time.
因为尝试忠于一个人是一趟需要时间的旅程。
And you never really know if you're getting close or if you've reached the destination.
你永远不知道你是否正在接近或是否已经到达目的地。
You never really know when you've arrived.
你永远不知道你什么时候到达。
For my generation-- the first one that assumed free love for both sexes was a birthright-- for us, monogamy is the last sexual mystery on Earth, the great unknown.
对于我们这一代人来说——第一个认为两性自由恋爱是与生俱来的权利的人——对我们来说，一夫一妻制是地球上最后的性之谜，是一个巨大的未知。
We've tried everything else.
我们已经尝试了其他一切。
It's certainly a different kind of trip than open marriage, which has lots of stops along the way.
这肯定是一种不同于开放式婚姻的旅行，开放式婚姻沿途有很多停靠点。
But most of them are the same.
但大多数都是一样的。
Maybe that's the problem with open marriage-- not many surprises.
也许这就是开放式婚姻的问题——没有太多惊喜。
It's titillating, but not very mysterious.
这很令人兴奋，但并不神秘。
Maybe that's why hearing about open marriages always makes me a little sad, why there's always a whiff of defeat about them.
也许这就是为什么听到开放婚姻总是让我有点悲伤，为什么他们总是有一种失败的味道。
I lay there in the dark beside my wife, thinking about all this, as I say, for a long time.
黑暗中，我躺在妻子身边，思考这一切，就像我说的，想了很长时间。
I thought about that dream of hers, to be faithful her whole life.
我想到了她的梦想，一生忠诚。
I thought, it's a sweet dream, almost like an ideal.
我想，这是一个甜蜜的梦，几乎就像一个理想。
And I knew I didn't want to be the one to prove to her that it couldn't come true.
我知道我不想成为向她证明这不可能实现的人。
It scared me, too, all that responsibility, because it's not such a wise thing to promise.
我也害怕所有的责任，因为承诺并不是明智之举。
Anyway, I'm trying to be monogamous, maybe not even for myself.
无论如何，我正在努力实行一夫一妻制，也许甚至不是为了我自己。
Maybe I'm just doing it for her.
也许我只是为了她。
Is that so unusual?
这有那么不寻常吗？
Maybe if I do it for her long enough, I'll start to do it for me, as well.
也许如果我为她做这件事足够长的时间，我也会开始为我自己做这件事。
It's not that I don't want to go to Istanbul anymore.
并不是我不想再去伊斯坦布尔了。
I really want to.
我真的很想。
In fact, I think about Istanbul all the time, if only to remind myself that it's still there.
事实上，我一直在想伊斯坦布尔，只是为了提醒自己它仍然在那里。
It's just that there's this other place I want to get to first, a little town that, for the longest time, I never even knew was there.
只是我想先去另一个地方，一个在很长一段时间里我什至都不知道那里的小镇。
Ian Brown is the host of Talking Books on the Sunday edition of CBC's This Morning .
伊恩·布朗 (Ian Brown) 是加拿大广播公司 (CBC) 周日版《今早》(This Morning) 节目《有声读物》(Talking Books) 的主持人。
Part of his comments are from his book Man Medium Rare.
他的部分评论来自他的书《Man Medium Rare》。
Well, our program was produced today by Alix Spiegel and myself with Nancy Updike and Julie Snyder.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由阿利克斯·斯皮格尔和我、南希·厄普代克和朱莉·斯奈德共同制作的。
Senior editor Paul Tough, contributing editors Jack Hitt, Margy Rochlin, and consigliere Sarah Vowell.
高级编辑 Paul Tough、特约编辑 Jack Hitt、Margy Rochlin 和顾问 Sarah Vowell。
Production help from Rachel Day, Jorge Just, Todd Bachmann, and Sylvia Lemus.
Rachel Day、Jorge Just、Todd Bachmann 和 Sylvia Lemus 为制作提供帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] If you'd like to buy a cassette of this program, call us here at WBEZ in Chicago, 312-832-3380.
[鸣谢] 如果您想购买该节目的磁带，请致电我们芝加哥的 WBEZ，电话：312-832-3380。
Or you know you can listen to most of our programs for free on the internet at our website, www.thislife.org.
或者您知道您可以在我们的网站 www.thislife.org 上免费收听我们的大部分节目。
Thanks to Elizabeth Meister, who runs the site.
感谢该网站的运营者伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister)。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who says about being a program director,
[资金来源] Torey Malatia 负责 WBEZ 管理监督，他谈到了作为项目总监，
It isn't an experiment or a phase.
这不是一个实验或一个阶段。
It's a choice.
这是一个选择。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of this American life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多关于美国生活的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。