897: Intergenerational Space Travel - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #897 | September 18, 2026 897: Intergenerational Space Travel Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 897 集 | 2026 年 9 月 18 日 897：代际太空旅行 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而生，旨在被聆听。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Dave Blanchard runs the public radio show Wild Card.
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 戴夫·布兰查德 (Dave Blanchard) 负责公共广播节目“Wild Card”。
And one of the less exciting and, in fact, rather tedious parts of his job is that he has to keep an eye on the comments that people post about the show online.
他的工作中不那么令人兴奋且事实上相当乏味的部分之一是他必须密切关注人们在网上发布的有关该节目的评论。
And one day last fall on Spotify, he saw all this activity about this episode they did with the writer Elizabeth Gilbert.
去年秋天的一天，他在 Spotify 上看到了他们与作家伊丽莎白·吉尔伯特 (Elizabeth Gilbert) 一起进行的有关这一集的所有活动。
And Dave thought, oh, her book was controversial.
戴夫想，哦，她的书是有争议的。
It must have struck a nerve, this episode.
这一集一定很震撼。
And then he looked at the comments.
然后他看了看评论。
And it was just, like, gibberish.
这只是胡言乱语。
There was a bunch of new comments, but I couldn't make heads or tail of any of them.
出现了一堆新的评论，但我对其中任何一条都摸不着头脑。
They're just these clipped, weird, incoherent postings that I was just like-- it screamed bots, just because anytime that I see just gibberish in a comment on the internet, I assume it's a bot.
它们只是这些剪裁的、奇怪的、语无伦次的帖子，我就像这样——它尖叫着机器人，只是因为每当我在互联网上的评论中看到胡言乱语时，我就认为它是一个机器人。
But the fact that they were all from different accounts seemed very weird.
但事实上他们都来自不同的账户，这看起来很奇怪。
And the fact that they also maybe seemed to be interacting in some way also seemed weird and not like typical bot behavior.
事实上，它们似乎也以某种方式进行交互，这似乎也很奇怪，不像典型的机器人行为。
Can I ask you to read some of those comments?
我可以请您阅读其中一些评论吗？
So yeah, I've got some from a later batch.
是的，我从后来的一批中得到了一些。
We've got some where it's like, someone says, "Ah, OK, M-H." And two people have hearted that.
我们有些地方就像有人说，“啊，好吧，M-H。”有两个人对此很感兴趣。
Someone says, "Gilgamesh quit and I'm crying." "Last Friday I broke up with my GF." "Your cats are so cute." "You're gorgeous in that dress.
有人说：“吉尔伽美什辞职了，我哭了。” “上周五我和我女朋友分手了。” “你的猫真可爱。” “你穿那件衣服真漂亮。
OML, pink heart."
OML，粉红色的心。”
So OK, bots, he thought, some newfangled kind of bots that respond to each other somehow.
好吧，机器人，他想，某种新型的机器人，可以以某种方式相互响应。
He deleted the posts.
他删除了帖子。
And I went back to the Spotify comments again.
我又回到了 Spotify 的评论。
And there was a new comment that said, uh, so it deleted my com.
然后有一条新评论说，呃，所以它删除了我的 com。
And that felt not botty.
那感觉并不低劣。
That felt very strange that a bot would be able to recognize that the thread got deleted and post it, letting people know that it had been deleted.
这感觉很奇怪，机器人能够识别出该线程已被删除并发布它，让人们知道它已被删除。
And then there were other responses to that.
然后还有其他对此的回应。
So someone says, username cotton/amity, parentheses, I'm back, bitches, commented, "Weird." Aubrey commented, "That's weirdss," two S's.
所以有人说，用户名cotton/amity，括号，我回来了，婊子们，评论道，“奇怪”。奥布里评论道：“这太奇怪了，”两个 S。
This is really not looking like any bot behavior he'd ever seen.
这看起来真的不像他见过的任何机器人行为。
So he goes to NPR's Slack channels, post some screenshots, describes what these comments are.
所以他去了 NPR 的 Slack 频道，发布了一些屏幕截图，描述了这些评论的内容。
And one of the higher-ups, Matilde, suggests reporting it to Spotify, which Dave does.
其中一位高层 Matilde 建议向 Spotify 报告此事，戴夫照做了。
And then somebody younger at NPR reads the thread.
然后 NPR 的某个年轻的人读到了这个帖子。
They're 10 years younger than Dave-- Gen Z, not millennial, named Hannah Chinn.
他们比 Dave 小 10 岁——Z 世代，而不是千禧一代，名叫 Hannah Chinn。
And I click into the screenshots, and almost immediately I'm like, oh.
我点击屏幕截图，几乎立刻我就想，哦。
My conclusion is really, really different than Dave's and Matilde's, because I'm like, these are kids.
我的结论与戴夫和马蒂尔德的结论非常非常不同，因为我想，这些都是孩子。
And I think that part of that is because I was a middle schooler on the internet, posting on forums and stuff.
我认为部分原因是因为我是互联网上的中学生，在论坛和其他东西上发帖。
And so I look at their display names.
所以我查看了他们的显示名称。
Their display names are, like, Ella with five emojis.
他们的显示名称是，例如，带有五个表情符号的艾拉。
And they're the special character emojis.
它们是特殊字符表情符号。
They're the ones that you have to go onto the internet and type your name into a special text generator, and then it comes out as a special character, and then you have to special paste it into your profile.
您必须上网并在特殊文本生成器中输入您的名字，然后它会作为特殊字符出现，然后您必须将其特殊粘贴到您的个人资料中。
Their profile pictures are all cartoon characters Hannah's never seen before.
他们的头像都是汉娜以前从未见过的卡通人物。
And then there's the way that they're commenting back and forth with each other, short little phrases.
然后他们会互相评论，简短的短语。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
That's weird.
这很奇怪。
Lots of hi's, lots of extra exclamation points.
很多嗨，很多额外的感叹号。
Hannah recognized it.
汉娜认出了它。
They grew up in a conservative home, was homeschooled, with limited access to social media.
他们在一个保守的家庭长大，在家接受教育，接触社交媒体的机会有限。
And so I was a kid who used weird parts of the internet not as they were originally designed to talk to my friends.
所以我是一个使用互联网的奇怪部分的孩子，而不是因为它们最初是为了与我的朋友交谈而设计的。
I talked back and forth with my friends on Google Docs.
我在 Google Docs 上与朋友们反复交谈。
And we would type things and then delete them, and then type things and then make them invisible by making the text white on the white background.
我们会输入一些内容，然后删除它们，然后输入一些内容，然后通过将文本在白色背景上设置为白色来使它们不可见。
So I think this is familiar behavior to me.
所以我认为这对我来说是熟悉的行为。
So Hannah writes out a comment to post on Slack, shows it to their housemate before posting because they're worried about coming off maybe too harsh with these much higher-ranking, older NPR bosses who Hannah had never met in person.
因此，汉娜在 Slack 上写了一条评论，并在发帖前向他们的室友展示了它，因为他们担心对这些汉娜从未亲自见过的级别更高、年长的 NPR 老板可能过于严厉。
And I say, OK, maybe I'm wrong, but I think these are just kids hanging out and we shouldn't report them as bots.
我说，好吧，也许我错了，但我认为这些只是闲逛的孩子，我们不应该将他们报告为机器人。
My guess is that they're just using Spotify comment threads as their group chat, maybe because other apps on their phones are blocked.
我的猜测是，他们只是使用 Spotify 评论线程作为群聊，可能是因为手机上的其他应用程序被阻止了。
Who knows?
谁知道？
And they happen to have chosen a wild card episode to do it, LOL.
他们碰巧选择了一个外卡剧集来做到这一点，哈哈。
These are middle schoolers.
这些都是中学生。
Middle schoolers specifically, not high schoolers?
特别是中学生，而不是高中生？
Yeah, these are people who are new to chatting with each other on the internet and in real life.
是的，这些人刚开始在互联网上和现实生活中互相聊天。
They're kids who are excited to talk to other people on the internet.
他们是热衷于在互联网上与其他人交谈的孩子。
The goal is just to connect with people.
目标只是与人联系。
You have nothing to talk about.
你们没什么可谈的。
You don't know each other very well.
你们彼此还不太了解。
You're just seeing each other and acknowledging each other's presence in the chat.
你们只是在聊天中看到对方并确认对方的存在。
Dave reads Hannah's Slack message.
戴夫阅读汉娜的 Slack 消息。
And, well, he is not convinced.
而且，好吧，他并不相信。
He posts--
他发帖——
Yeah, that's an interesting theory.
是的，这是一个有趣的理论。
There's an exclamation point at the end of it, at least to give it that much credit.
结尾处有一个感叹号，至少给予它如此多的信任。
Yes.
是的。
Admittedly, I was still like, really?
不可否认，我仍然想，真的吗？
Again, this is Wild Card with Rachel Martin on NPR-- not our target demo to have a bunch of middle schoolers in our comment section.
再说一遍，这是 NPR 上 Rachel Martin 的 Wild Card，而不是我们的目标演示，让一群中学生出现在我们的评论部分。
It just felt so completely implausible that these people would have found this particular episode as their place to chat.
这些人居然把这一集当作他们聊天的地方，这感觉太难以置信了。
Dave is like, oh, that's an interesting theory.
戴夫说，哦，这是一个有趣的理论。
And I, at this point-- sorry, Dave.
而我，在这一点上——对不起，戴夫。
I don't know you in real life.
现实生活中我不认识你。
I'm a little bit annoyed.
我有点生气。
Because I'm like, I know that I said "maybe I'm wrong," but I was so sure that I was right.
因为我想，我知道我说“也许我错了”，但我很确定我是对的。
Hannah does more digging, which makes them even more convinced than before.
汉娜进行了更多的挖掘，这让他们比以前更加确信。
What the kids seemed to be doing was one kid would create a playlist on Spotify with a name like "Let's chat here." And inside that playlist would be one podcast episode.
孩子们似乎正在做的是，其中一个孩子会在 Spotify 上创建一个播放列表，其名称类似于“让我们在这里聊天”。该播放列表中将包含一集播客。
And you know how you can see other people's playlists on Spotify if they make them public?
您知道如何在 Spotify 上看到其他人公开的播放列表吗？
Other kids would see that playlist.
其他孩子会看到该播放列表。
They'd see the episode.
他们会看到这一集。
And then they would go to the podcast episode and start posting in the comments.
然后他们会转到播客节目并开始在评论中发帖。
Hannah got back on Slack and pointed out that the kids were using a playlist that was named New Chat.
汉娜回到 Slack 并指出孩子们正在使用一个名为“New Chat”的播放列表。
The kids had also posted a Google Form with some kind of quiz on it and said, "Fill this out.
孩子们还发布了一份谷歌表格，上面有一些测验，并说：“填写这个。
Only cool people can fill this out."
只有很酷的人才能填写这个。”
Bots don't really spam Google Forms in my experience, whereas Gen Alpha might use them in the same way that my generation would use uQuiz or the BuzzFeed Make Your Own Personality Quiz feature.
根据我的经验，机器人并不会真正向 Google 表单发送垃圾邮件，而 Alpha 一代可能会像我们这一代人使用 uQuiz 或 BuzzFeed Make Your Own Personality Quiz 功能一样使用它们。
And reading that was the turning point for Dave.
读到这篇文章是戴夫的转折点。
When they were like, this is something that I did, that's what unlocked it.
当他们说，这就是我所做的事情，这就是解锁它的原因。
I think it was so implausible to me.
我认为这对我来说太难以置信了。
And then when Hannah was like, no, I did this, I was like, oh, wow.
然后，当汉娜说，不，我这么做了时，我就想，哦，哇。
I guess it makes sense.
我想这是有道理的。
And then it was like, I could go back and look at it again.
然后就好像，我可以回去再看一遍。
And it was like, I had the lens on to see it.
就像，我戴上镜头才能看到它。
And I was like, oh, my god, they are kids.
我当时想，哦，天哪，他们还是孩子。
In retrospect, it looks so obvious.
回想起来，它看起来是如此明显。
So how exactly did those commenters end up in the comment section of an NPR podcast?
那么这些评论者究竟是如何出现在 NPR 播客的评论部分的呢？
What exactly happened here?
这里究竟发生了什么？
Well, we reached out to a bunch of the commenters.
好吧，我们联系了一些评论者。
Only one of them agreed to talk to us.
只有其中一人同意与我们交谈。
As suspected, she is not a bot.
正如怀疑的那样，她不是机器人。
She's a 14-year-old girl who talked to me from the car with her parents' permission and her dad at the wheel.
她是一个 14 岁的女孩，在她父母的允许下在车上和我说话，而驾驶座是她的父亲。
Her name is Ella.
她的名字叫艾拉。
When I asked her to describe herself, she said this.
当我让她描述一下自己时，她是这么说的。
I would say that I'm definitely a bit hard to get to know because I don't know a lot about myself yet.
我想说我确实有点难以了解，因为我对自己还不太了解。
But I think if you do get to know me, you'll find out I'm a pretty cool person.
但我想如果你真正了解我，你会发现我是一个很酷的人。
Ella says this all started with a video podcast that played TikTok videos.
艾拉说，这一切都是从播放 TikTok 视频的视频播客开始的。
Ella thinks a kid started it.
艾拉认为是一个孩子开始的。
The video seemed to be chosen specifically for kids who weren't allowed on TikTok, but were allowed on Spotify.
该视频似乎是专门为那些不允许使用 TikTok 但允许使用 Spotify 的孩子选择的。
That was Ella.
那是艾拉。
She was allowed on Spotify, but on no social media.
她可以使用 Spotify，但不能使用社交媒体。
And she and the other kids would watch this girl's podcast on Spotify and then chat in the comments of the podcast.
她和其他孩子会在 Spotify 上观看这个女孩的播客，然后在播客的评论中聊天。
And her podcast ended up getting banned.
她的播客最终被禁止。
And we wanted to keep talking to each other, so people would make playlists.
我们想继续互相交谈，这样人们就会制作播放列表。
She described exactly the system that Hannah figured out.
她准确地描述了汉娜想出的系统。
Kids would name their playlist "chat here" or something like that, and then there'd be some podcast, and everybody would go to that podcast and talk in the comments.
孩子们会将他们的播放列表命名为“在这里聊天”或类似的名称，然后会有一些播客，每个人都会去该播客并在评论中交谈。
She says it was maybe 20 kids in the core group-- lots of theater kids, she says, mostly girls, most of them with strict parents who didn't let them on regular social media.
她说，核心群体中可能有 20 个孩子——很多剧院的孩子，她说，大多数是女孩，其中大多数都有严格的父母，不让他们使用常规社交媒体。
And can I ask, why did you guys pick NPR shows to be the ones where you went to in the comments?
我能问一下，你们为什么在评论中选择 NPR 节目作为你们观看的节目？
I think we just looked for podcasts that didn't have many comments.
我想我们只是寻找没有太多评论的播客。
I see.
我懂了。
So you picked NPR because it didn't seem very popular.
所以你选择了 NPR，因为它似乎不太受欢迎。
Yeah, so that we wouldn't get caught up in other people's comments.
是的，这样我们就不会被别人的评论所困扰。
I tell you, buddy, I do a public radio show, and that hurts a little to hear it.
我告诉你，伙计，我做一个公共广播节目，听到它有点让人伤心。
Sorry.
对不起。
Ira Glass That's OK.
艾拉·格拉斯 没关系。
Are your parents NPR listeners?
你的父母是 NPR 听众吗？
Yeah, my mom is.
是的，我妈妈是。
She listens to podcasts all the time.
她一直听播客。
Was any of this that your parents were NPR listeners, and this felt like this is the perfect cover?
你的父母是 NPR 听众，这是否感觉这是一个完美的封面？
Like, if they catch you doing this, you can be like, look, I'm just doing this for an NPR show.
就像，如果他们发现你这样做，你可能会说，看，我只是为了 NPR 节目才这样做。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass Is that true?
艾拉·格拉斯 这是真的吗？
Did you think about that?
你想过吗？
Yeah, a little bit.
是的，有一点。
Ira Glass It's funny.
艾拉·格拉斯 这很有趣。
There was this guy named Dave who works for NPR, and he's in his 30s.
有一个名叫戴夫（Dave）的人，在 NPR 工作，30 多岁。
And he saw the comments that you guys were doing.
他看到了你们所做的评论。
And they made no sense to him at all.
而这些对他来说毫无意义。
He really had no idea what they were.
他真的不知道它们是什么。
And he thought you guys were all bots.
他认为你们都是机器人。
Yeah.
是的。
Some of them were really young, like 11 years old and stuff.
他们中的一些人非常年轻，比如 11 岁之类的。
So some of them definitely were a little bit not good at talking English that well.
所以他们中的一些人肯定不太擅长说英语。
Or using slang.
或者使用俚语。
I got to say, I thought that was a very generous answer.
我不得不说，我认为这是一个非常慷慨的答案。
Dave thought they were bots.
戴夫认为他们是机器人。
And she was like, yeah, well, some of us kind of talked like bots.
她说，是的，我们中的一些人说话就像机器人一样。
Ella told me she's sure someday she'll be clueless like Dave is now, which, of course, isn't much comfort if you're Dave.
艾拉告诉我，她确信有一天她会像戴夫现在一样一无所知，当然，如果你是戴夫，这并不能让你感到安慰。
Dave says that once he understood that it was kids writing all those comments, it didn't feel great.
戴夫说，当他明白这些评论都是孩子们写的时，感觉不太好。
One, I felt bad for having reported them.
第一，我为举报他们而感到难过。
I definitely felt guilty.
我确实感到内疚。
And two, old.
还有两个，老的。
I just felt very old, very dumb, very out of touch.
我只是觉得自己很老、很笨、很脱离现实。
I literally needed Hannah to be my generational translator.
我确实需要汉娜成为我这一代的翻译。
It was such a clarifying realization of my age and obsolescence.
这是对我的年龄和过时的清晰认识。
Well, today on our program, people from one generation trying to cross the vast, vast distance that divides the young and the old with a message that they hope will get heard by the people on the other side.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，一代人试图跨越年轻人和老年人之间的巨大距离，传递出他们希望另一边的人们能够听到的信息。
We have stories today of a wedding toast and of childhood hair care, and of the greatest job in the world, as seen from the eyes of a teenager, anyway.
今天我们有关于婚礼祝酒和童年头发护理的故事，还有从青少年的角度来看世界上最伟大的工作的故事。
Intergenerational space travel this hour.
此时此刻，代际太空旅行。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Climb aboard this rocket with us, if you dare, and stay with us.
如果你有胆量，就和我们一起登上这艘火箭，并和我们在一起。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
Act One-- The Wedding Zinger.
第一幕——婚礼之歌。
So let's start today with a story that is both intergenerational space and time travel.
那么今天就让我们从一个既是代际空间又是时间旅行的故事开始吧。
When Courtney Maum was 18, her mom got remarried.
Courtney Maum 18 岁时，她的妈妈再婚了。
Courtney despised the guy, did not want the marriage to go through.
考特尼鄙视这个家伙，不希望婚姻顺利进行。
But she was her mom's maid of honor, and she gave a speech at her mother's request.
但她是她母亲的伴娘，她应母亲的要求发表了演讲。
And the speech she gave at 18 years old, her mom never forgave her for it, brought it up for years after.
她18岁时发表的那次演讲，她妈妈从未原谅过她，多年后仍提起这件事。
And then recently, after three tumultuous decades, her mom's relationship with this man fell apart.
最近，在经历了三个动荡的十年之后，她妈妈与这个男人的关系破裂了。
For Courtney, this was the opening, the chance to finally ask her mom across the divide between them about this marriage she never understood, and to try one more time to lay this infamous wedding speech to rest.
对于考特尼来说，这是一个机会，终于有机会跨越他们之间的鸿沟向她妈妈询问她从未理解的这段婚姻，并再次尝试结束这场臭名昭著的婚礼演讲。
Here's Courtney.
这是考特尼。
At 18, I thought I was kind of hot stuff-- a writer in the making, a die-hard feminist, a student capable of bringing freedom to Tibet.
18 岁时，我认为自己是一个炙手可热的人物——一个正在成长的作家、一个顽固的女权主义者、一个有能力为西藏带来自由的学生。
Here's how my mom Linda saw me.
这就是我妈妈琳达如何看待我的。
What I remember is at that point in your life, you were extremely selfish.
我记得在你生命的那个阶段，你非常自私。
And you didn't want anybody else in my life.
而你不想让其他人出现在我的生活中。
You asked me not to even date until after you went off to college, and certainly not even think of getting married before that.
你要求我在你上大学之前不要约会，当然在那之前不要考虑结婚。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
I'm sure it's true.
我确信这是真的。
The thing is, I loved being with my mother.
问题是，我喜欢和妈妈在一起。
Everybody did.
每个人都这么做了。
I didn't want to share her.
我不想分享她。
She was fun, beautiful, stylish, like a woman out of Knight Rider.
她有趣、美丽、时尚，就像《霹雳游侠》中的女人一样。
She had a Harley-Davidson and a boating license.
她拥有哈雷戴维森摩托车和划船执照。
We were always on adventures.
我们总是在冒险。
In the summer, I loved to watch her steer our little Boston Whaler, wearing these massive dangly earrings that sparkled in the sun.
夏天，我喜欢看她驾驶我们的小波士顿捕鲸船，戴着这些在阳光下闪闪发光的巨大耳环。
It was a fairy tale existence, a childhood of privilege, growing up like this in Greenwich, Connecticut, with parents I adored.
这是一个童话般的存在，一个特权的童年，像这样在康涅狄格州格林威治长大，和我崇拜的父母在一起。
But when I was eight and my brother Brendan was three, my father asked my mom for a divorce.
但当我八岁、我哥哥布伦丹三岁时，我父亲向我妈妈提出离婚。
My mother was devastated.
我的母亲很伤心。
But like I said, she was a hot item.
但就像我说的，她是一个热门人物。
So the suitors came a-calling.
于是，求婚者纷纷前来求婚。
I can't say I was a fan.
我不能说我是粉丝。
One laughed like a hyena.
其中一人笑得像鬣狗。
One was so heartsick with love for her, his longing made everyone embarrassed for him, my mother included.
一个人对她的爱如此心痛，他的渴望让每个人都为他感到尴尬，包括我的母亲。
There were others, also memorable.
还有其他一些，也令人难忘。
Do you remember the man who whipped out a ventriloquist doll at Benihana's?
你还记得那个在 Benihana 店里拿出口技娃娃的人吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Who the hell was that?
那到底是谁？
But that was one date.
但那只是一次约会。
We go into the Benihana's, and he's already seated.
我们走进贝尼哈纳餐厅，他已经就座了。
And this is family-style seating.
这是家庭式的座位。
So we're sitting with strangers.
所以我们和陌生人坐在一起。
And we sit down.
我们坐下来。
And course number one-- you know when they do the little joke and they flip the shrimp into people's mouths?
第一道菜——你知道他们什么时候会开个小玩笑，然后把虾扔进人们的嘴里吗？
This guy pulls a ventriloquist doll from out under the table, and he's like, give me some of that shrimp!
这家伙从桌子底下拿出一个口技娃娃，然后他说，给我一些虾！
Remember?
记住？
Brendan was, what, six years old.
布伦丹当时六岁。
We were dying.
我们快死了。
The whole table was like, no. No, this isn't it.
整桌人都说，不。不，不是这个。
Well, he probably stopped liking it once I rained on everyone's parade, but you know.
好吧，一旦我给大家的游行带来了麻烦，他可能就不再喜欢了，但你知道。
And I remember going to the parking lot with you, and I was like, never again.
我记得和你一起去停车场，我想，再也不会了。
Mom, that guy, never again.
妈妈，那个家伙，再也不会了。
There was one final suitor, the man my mom would marry when I was a senior in high school.
最后一个追求者是我高中四年级时我妈妈要娶的那个男人。
My mother has asked me to refer to him as Mr. X in this story.
我母亲让我在这个故事中称他为 X 先生。
I didn't trust Mr. X from the start.
我从一开始就不信任X先生。
He seemed to show up out of nowhere with no comprehensible backstory, like he was born out of the ether.
他似乎凭空出现，没有任何可理解的背景故事，就像他从以太中诞生一样。
One day, he pulled into our driveway in a rundown car and never left again.
有一天，他开着一辆破旧的汽车驶进我们的车道，然后就再也没有离开过。
The old suitors had been annoying, but they were innocent.
老追求者虽然很烦人，但他们是无辜的。
Mr. X was different.
X先生则不同。
He put me on edge.
他让我感到紧张。
He claimed he was an architect, but he never seemed to have any work.
他声称自己是一名建筑师，但他似乎从来没有任何工作。
And he appeared to have no friends.
而且他似乎没有朋友。
I bugged my mom about his past.
我向妈妈诉说他的过去。
She explained she'd met him years before when she was pregnant with me, that he'd been part of a crew working on a renovation to the house my parents lived in.
她解释说，她多年前在怀我的时候就认识了他，他是我父母居住的房子翻修工作人员中的一员。
Whenever she told this story, I imagined my unborn self kicking from within her body, kicking in his direction, saying, no, not him, no. But I'd never heard the full story of their meeting until now.
每当她讲这个故事时，我都会想象我未出生的自我从她体内踢出，踢向他的方向，说，不，不是他，不。但直到现在我才听说他们会面的完整故事。
It happened back when my mother was still married to my father, Bob.
事情发生在我母亲还和我父亲鲍勃结婚的时候。
So I was just redoing the house, and I hired him as an architect or a builder, or whatever I thought he was.
所以我只是重修房子，我聘请他作为建筑师或建筑商，或者无论我认为他是什么。
So here I was.
所以我就在这里。
I was pregnant.
我怀孕了。
And he came into the driveway for me to interview him.
他来到车道上让我采访他。
He drove in in an old, beat-up car, but he was so adorable, and he was also six years younger than I was.
他开着一辆破旧的车进来，但他很可爱，而且他还比我小六岁。
So at that point, that's a big difference between 30 and 24.
所以在这一点上，30 和 24 之间存在很大差异。
That's a huge difference.
这是一个巨大的差异。
And I interviewed other people, and I decided because he was cheaper, for one-- and I had a little-- he's so cute-- never in my life ever thinking I'd ever cheat on Bob, but you know, imagining.
我采访了其他人，我决定是因为他更便宜，对于一个 - 而且我有一点 - 他太可爱了 - 我一生中从未想过我会欺骗鲍勃，但你知道，想象一下。
So I remember in this one point, there was a bathroom in one of the guest rooms.
所以我记得这一点，其中一间客房里有一间浴室。
And we were debating putting a skylight in it.
我们正在讨论在里面加一个天窗。
And I got in the bathtub to show how high the ceiling had to go, and he got in behind me.
我进了浴缸，以展示天花板有多高，他在我后面进来了。
Oh, boy.
哦，男孩。
We're going to have a Ghost moment here.
我们将在这里度过一个幽灵时刻。
No. And I just remember thinking, why did he get in so close to me?
不。我只记得我在想，为什么他离我这么近？
I don't remember.
我不记得了。
Why did he do that?
他为什么这么做？
Anyway, the end of the story is that he got in a car accident.
不管怎样，故事的结局是他出了车祸。
A car hit him.
一辆车撞到了他。
He almost lost his leg.
他几乎失去了一条腿。
So obviously, he took off with the money.
很明显，他带着钱走了。
Oh, God.
哦，上帝。
I didn't know this part of the story.
我不知道故事的这一部分。
So I had to go to court and prove that he had indeed been paid.
所以我必须去法庭证明他确实得到了报酬。
So that put a very bad taste in my mouth.
所以这给我带来了非常不好的感觉。
When my producers contacted him, Mr. X remembered the story differently.
当我的制片人联系他时，X 先生对这个故事的记忆有所不同。
He said the car accident happened before he met my mom and that he didn't run off with the money, that he doesn't know what happened to it.
他说车祸发生在他遇到我妈妈之前，他没有带着钱跑掉，他不知道发生了什么。
There was no financial grift.
不存在经济诈骗行为。
He also said he didn't do anything untoward in the bathtub.
他还说他在浴缸里没有做任何不检点的事。
Still, my mom got a bad feeling from their first interaction.
尽管如此，我妈妈从他们的第一次互动中就有了一种不好的预感。
There shouldn't have been a second one, but there was, after she was divorced and had all these suitors peacocking around.
本来不应该有第二次，但在她离婚并让所有追求者都在炫耀之后，却出现了。
It was 15 years after the bathtub incident.
距离浴缸事件已经过去15年了。
She was picking up my brother from summer camp.
她去夏令营接我弟弟。
Mr. X was picking up his son.
X先生正在接他的儿子。
She didn't recognize him at first.
她一开始没认出他。
I had seen Mr. X in the distance and thought, oh, he's so good-looking.
我在远处看到了X先生，心想，哦，他真好看。
She learned from a mutual friend that he was going through a divorce.
她从共同的朋友那里得知他正在离婚。
Still, she didn't recognize him as the man from the botched reno.
尽管如此，她还是没有认出他就是来自那个破烂的里诺的男人。
He was just some handsome stranger.
他只是一个英俊的陌生人。
I was so excited he was going to be available.
我很兴奋他能上场。
And so when I left, I gave him my phone number.
所以当我离开时，我给了他我的电话号码。
And I said, if you ever want to talk, because it is a very difficult thing to go through, call me.
我说，如果你想谈谈，因为这是一件非常困难的事情，请打电话给我。
Of course, it's a line.
当然，这是一条线。
And he did indeed call me, probably within a week.
他确实给我打电话了，可能是在一周之内。
And that's how we started dating.
这就是我们开始约会的方式。
But I didn't know who he was at the beginning.
但一开始我并不知道他是谁。
I mean--
我的意思是——
You didn't know that it was the same guy who snuck up behind you in the bathtub?
你不知道这就是在浴缸里偷偷溜到你身后的那个人吗？
No, no, no. Courtney Maum For a little frottage.
不，不，不。考特尼·毛姆（Courtney Maum） 一点点涂抹。
And you know why I didn't know?
你知道为什么我不知道吗？
This is horrible to admit-- because he had a toupée on.
承认这一点太可怕了——因为他戴着假发。
Yeah.
是的。
So he had much more hair than I remember him having.
所以他的头发比我记忆中的多得多。
And it was darker.
天色更暗了。
He was blonde when I knew him.
当我认识他时，他是金发女郎。
And then he came over to me and said, I know who you are.
然后他走过来对我说，我知道你是谁。
And I said, you look familiar, but I don't know you.
我说，你看起来很眼熟，但我不认识你。
And he said, I'm Mr. X.
他说，我是X先生。
[CHUCKLES] And I slammed him in the chest and said, Jesus Christ, I don't want to talk.
[轻笑]我猛击他的胸口说，天哪，我不想说话。
I shouldn't want to talk to you.
我不应该想和你说话。
But that's what happened.
但事实就是这样。
My mom told me that on their first real date, she did ask Mr. X why he never paid the subcontractors at my parents' house.
我妈妈告诉我，在他们第一次真正约会时，她确实问过 X 先生为什么他从不向我父母家里的分包商付款。
She said he told her he'd been in a car accident, was on heavy drugs and hospitalized.
她说他告诉她他出了车祸，正在服用大量药物并住院治疗。
She decided to forgive him.
她决定原谅他。
I'd never heard about that moment in the bathtub or the missing money.
我从未听说过在浴缸里的那一刻或丢失的钱。
Listen, what's surprising to me about hearing this full story, you remembered that and thought, you know what, this is the guy to pursue.
听着，听到这个完整的故事让我感到惊讶，你记得这一点，然后想，你知道吗，这就是要追求的人。
I'm going to let it go.
我要放手了。
Just forget about it.
忘记它吧。
Yep.
是的。
Of course they were.
当然是。
Courtney Maum No further comment.
考特尼·毛姆 没有进一步评论。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Before Mr. X, my mom was super social.
在 X 先生之前，我妈妈非常社交。
When my parents were married, our house was like Studio frickin' 54.
当我父母结婚时，我们的房子就像 Studio trickin' 54 一样。
They had these awesome dinner parties where everybody looked nice, and my mom would serve this Martha Stewart-level cuisine with ease and panache that really impressed me as a kid.
他们举办了这些很棒的晚宴，每个人看起来都很不错，我妈妈会轻松而华丽地提供玛莎·斯图尔特级别的菜肴，这给我小时候留下了深刻的印象。
I remember going to sleep to the sound of people clinking glasses, enjoying each other's company.
我记得我是在人们碰杯的声音中入睡的，享受着彼此的陪伴。
When she got together with Mr. X, though, her life started to narrow.
然而，当她和X先生在一起时，她的生活开始变得狭窄。
People didn't really come by our house much anymore.
人们不再真正来我们家了。
My sense is that Mr. X made people uncomfortable.
我的感觉是 X 先生让人感到不舒服。
Though he presented OK, in conversation he was gruff and socially awkward, a wild animal in deck shorts.
尽管他表现得还不错，但在谈话中他却很粗鲁，在社交上很尴尬，就像一只穿着短裤的野兽。
In public, he treated strangers badly-- barking at waiters, yelling at gas station attendants.
在公共场合，他粗鲁地对待陌生人——对服务员吠叫，对加油站服务员大喊大叫。
In private, it was worse.
私下里，情况更糟。
He was clingy and possessive with my mother, cutting her down with hurtful comments.
他对我母亲很粘人，占有欲很强，经常用伤人的言论来打压她。
The drinking stopped being social.
饮酒不再是社交活动。
Dinners were served on a tray in front of Fox News, the volume blaring, with him hollering for more.
晚餐被放在福克斯新闻台前的托盘上，音量很大，他大声喊着要更多。
I graduated college still not understanding what the hell my mom saw in this man or why she'd let him come between us.
我大学毕业了，仍然不明白我妈妈到底在这个男人身上看到了什么，也不明白为什么她会让他介入我们之间。
What were other positive things that drew you to Mr. X in the beginning?
一开始还有哪些其他积极的因素吸引您来到 X 先生身边？
I had a partner.
我有一个伙伴。
I was up at Candlewood Lake, and everything was husband and wives, or boyfriends and girlfriends.
我在坎德尔伍德湖，一切都是丈夫和妻子，或者是男朋友和女朋友。
Candlewood Lake is where my mom was living at this point.
Candlewood Lake 是我妈妈此时居住的地方。
I had somebody that I was proud to be seen with, and he was a so-called architect.
我有一个让我感到自豪的人，他是一位所谓的建筑师。
OK, so he was handsome.
好吧，所以他很帅。
He was available as a partner.
他可以作为合伙人。
Let me just digest that.
让我消化一下。
OK, but you just really didn't want to be alone, it sounds like.
好吧，但听起来你只是真的不想一个人呆着。
I didn't like being alone, but I don't think I got married so I wouldn't be alone.
我不喜欢孤独，但我不认为我结婚了，所以我不会孤独。
I drilled into my mom about this.
我向妈妈询问了这件事。
She said it was as simple as her wanting someone handsome on her arm.
她说这很简单，就是想要一个帅哥挽在她的手臂上。
Everyone was coupled.
每个人都是情侣。
She wanted something for herself.
她想要为自己做点什么。
Why him, though?
为什么是他呢？
Because you had all these other offers.
因为你有所有这些其他优惠。
Why him?
为什么是他？
Oh, god, it was you?
天哪，是你吗？
You were the motor behind this?
你是这件事背后的推动者？
My life is coming undone right here in the living room.
我的生活就在客厅里被毁掉了。
You asked for his hand in marriage?
你向他求婚了吗？
No, I did not ask.
不，我没有问。
I told him that we might just as well get married, period.
我告诉他我们还是结婚吧，就这样。
Yay.
耶。
Courtney Maum So this speech I gave at my mother's wedding that made her so upset, I remember her complaining about it to strangers, people at the grocery store, airline stewards for over a decade.
考特尼·毛姆 我在我母亲的婚礼上发表的这篇演讲让她非常不安，我记得十多年来她一直向陌生人、杂货店里的人、航空公司的乘务员抱怨这件事。
If a waitress said something nice about mothers and daughters spending time together, she'd be like, ha, you should have heard how she talked about me at my wedding.
如果女服务员说了一些关于母女共度时光的好话，她会说，哈，你应该听听她在我的婚礼上是如何谈论我的。
I thought I was going to get a how wonderful my mother was growing up and how happy I was to see her happy, but what I remember about that speech is it was more about the negative things that I did in my life, like, i.e., smoking-- at my wedding.
我以为我会了解到我母亲的成长是多么美好，看到她幸福我是多么高兴，但我记得那次演讲更多的是关于我在生活中所做的消极事情，比如，在我的婚礼上吸烟。
And I remember standing there, and my heart just sunk.
我记得我站在那里，我的心沉了下去。
And I just thought, oh, my god, she really hates me.
我只是想，天哪，她真的很恨我。
That's what she heard, but it's not what I remember saying.
这是她听到的，但我记得不是这么说的。
Here's where I admit that my speech was actually a poem written by me.
在这里我承认我的演讲实际上是我写的一首诗。
I was super into poetry as a teenager, poetry as homage.
我十几岁的时候就非常喜欢诗歌，诗歌是一种致敬。
When my best friend moved away, for example, I wrote her an ode that her mother had professionally calligraphied and framed, and that our school asked me to set to music and perform at assembly.
例如，当我最好的朋友搬走时，我给她写了一首颂歌，她的母亲经过专业书法和装框，我们学校要求我配乐并在集会上表演。
For better or for worse, my visions of myself as a great American writer were clearly being indulged.
无论好坏，我对自己作为一名伟大的美国作家的憧憬显然都被放纵了。
So when my mom asked me to say something at her wedding, I cracked open my diary and set about writing something major, something so revealing it would cause the ground to crack beneath the altar or inspire someone to rise from the pews and speak out against their marriage, to make the whole thing stop there and then.
因此，当我妈妈让我在她的婚礼上说点什么时，我打开日记，开始写一些重要的东西，一些揭示性的东西，会导致祭坛下的地面裂开，或者激励某人从长椅上站起来，公开反对他们的婚姻，让整个事情就此停止。
I really wanted that.
我真的很想要那个。
In preparation for this conversation with my mom, I dug the poem out.
为了准备与妈妈的这次谈话，我翻出了这首诗。
Neither of us had seen it in 30 years.
我们俩已经 30 年没有见过它了。
I am looking at a piece of paper that has 1, 2, 3, 4-- like, seven stanzas on it.
我正在看一张纸，上面有 1、2、3、4 之类的七节。
"Wedding Day Poem for My Mother."
《献给母亲的婚礼诗》。
She walks through realms of habituated darkness.
她走过习惯于黑暗的领域。
And can you see the tumble stones that mar her rocky path?
你能看到那些破坏她岩石小路的滚石吗？
She is pushing, she is pulling, she is moving through the darkness.
她在推，她在拉，她在黑暗中前行。
And oh, the road is long, and every breath feels like her last.
哦，路还很长，她的每一次呼吸都像是最后一次。
O, Mother, Mother, Mother, behind my lids I see you smiling at the bow within a boat above the sea.
哦，母亲，母亲，母亲，在我的眼皮后面，我看到您在海上的一艘船上对着船头微笑。
In retrospect, there's no chance anyone understood this fucking poem.
回想起来，根本没有人能理解这该死的诗。
I'll skip ahead a bit.
我先跳过一点。
Other times I see you and often you are lonely, standing by our counter with a cigarette in hand.
其他时候我看到你，你常常很孤独，手里拿着香烟站在我们的柜台旁。
There it is, the cigarette of my mother's discontent.
这就是我母亲不满的香烟。
And in my head I hear you wishing body beyond boundaries, somewhere another place, another time, another land.
在我的脑海里，我听到你希望身体超越界限，在另一个地方、另一个时间、另一个土地上。
Mother, the time has come for laying down roots.
母亲，扎根的时刻到了。
Right here, halfway through the poem, something weird occurs.
就在这首诗读到一半的时候，发生了一些奇怪的事情。
My tone shifts in a way I don't remember at all.
我的语气发生了变化，我完全不记得了。
No longer do I see you glancing out beyond our window, wishing yourself other places very far from here.
我不再看到你向窗外望去，希望自己能去到离这里很远的地方。
I think you found contentment.
我想你已经找到了满足。
I think you've found belonging.
我想你已经找到归属感了。
I think you have found a refuge where safety subdues fear.
我认为你已经找到了一个安全的避难所，可以消除恐惧。
Why had my mom given me such hell over this thing?
为什么我妈妈要为这件事让我如此痛苦？
The poem wasn't incendiary, nor was it damning of my mother.
这首诗没有煽动性，也没有咒骂我的母亲。
If anything, it seemed to wish her well.
如果说有什么不同的话，那就是希望她一切顺利。
Here are the last lines.
这是最后几行。
Look no more out the window.
不要再看窗外了。
Look no more through the door.
不要再透过门看。
Look not beyond horizon.
不要看地平线以外的地方。
It's not foreign anymore.
这已经不再是外国的了。
You found what you've been wanting.
你找到了你一直想要的东西。
Your roots grow deep and true.
你的根会变得深厚而真实。
You found a soul to worship and someone who loves you too.
你找到了一个值得崇拜的灵魂，也找到了一个爱你的人。
OK.
好的。
The ending was good.
结局是好的。
Courtney Maum [LAUGHS]
考特尼·毛姆 [笑]
But I will say that at that point, I probably wasn't listening anymore.
但我要说的是，那时我可能不再听了。
And that's why I didn't hear the positiveness of it.
这就是为什么我没有听到它的积极性。
You no longer have to look.
你不再需要看。
You can go out and be happy with this person that's going to smoke with you.
你可以和这个和你一起抽烟的人一起出去并感到高兴。
I wasn't going to be alone in this dark age of sin.
在这个罪恶的黑暗时代，我不会孤单。
It's negative to me.
这对我来说是负面的。
Still?
仍然？
Linda Maum Yeah.
琳达·毛姆 是的。
Yeah, the beginning is definitely negative still.
是的，一开始肯定还是消极的。
OK, so for me that's painful to hear, because I was really acknowledging how much you were struggling.
好吧，对我来说，听到这个消息很痛苦，因为我真的承认你有多么挣扎。
And to me, that was what I was trying to do with the beginning, was acknowledge everything that you were going through that was so, so hard.
对我来说，这就是我一开始就想做的事情，就是承认你正在经历的一切是如此非常困难。
I could see that.
我看得出来。
You tell me that, and I can understand it.
你这么告诉我，我就能理解。
I'm sorry that I didn't hear the positiveness in it.
很抱歉我没有听到其中的积极意义。
[CHUCKLES] [SIGHS] Oh, phew.
[咯咯笑][叹气]哦，唷。
Courtney Maum I probably owe my mom an apology as well.
考特尼·毛姆 我可能也欠我妈妈一个道歉。
I mean, now that I'm rereading it for the first time since the wedding, I get why she was so upset and hurt.
我的意思是，现在这是我自婚礼以来第一次重读它，我明白了为什么她如此沮丧和受伤。
It's a pretty dark picture to present of someone on their wedding day.
这是一张在婚礼当天呈现的非常黑暗的照片。
I also get how she couldn't hear the nice things I was saying.
我也明白她怎么听不到我说的好话。
Frankly, I didn't remember at all writing the end with that much compassion toward my mom and graciousness toward Mr. X, but hearing it, I do remember feeling that way.
坦白说，我根本不记得在写结尾时对我的妈妈有那么多的同情心，对X先生的仁慈，但听到它时，我确实记得有那种感觉。
We were dealing with hard things as a family before my mom got remarried.
在我妈妈再婚之前，我们一家人正在处理困难的事情。
My brother Brendan had gotten really sick.
我哥哥布伦丹病得很重。
He basically moved into the Yale New Haven Children's Hospital when he was 10 years old because he was seizing uncontrollably.
10 岁时，他基本上搬进了耶鲁纽黑文儿童医院，因为他的癫痫发作无法控制。
His heart would stop out of nowhere.
他的心脏会无缘无故地停止跳动。
It was a terrifying time.
那是一段可怕的时光。
Mr. X was intolerant of everyone, but he was gentle with my brother, kind.
X先生对每个人都不宽容，但他对我弟弟却很温柔、善良。
He helped calm my mom down.
他帮助我妈妈平静下来。
I know this meant a lot to her and also to Brendan, especially because our father was sort of checked out emotionally from what was going on.
我知道这对她和布伦丹来说意义重大，特别是因为我们的父亲在情感上对所发生的事情感到有些不安。
I do remember thinking, this is a thing to hold on to here.
我记得当时我在想，这是一件值得坚持的事情。
This is his saving grace.
这是他的救恩。
I wish I'd made things simpler for my mom back then.
我希望当时我能让妈妈的事情变得更简单。
I wish I could have said more clearly, I'm worried about you.
我希望我能更清楚地说，我很担心你。
But anger is the teenage version of worry, and I was very angry.
但愤怒是青少年版的担忧，我非常生气。
My mom wouldn't tolerate me saying negative things about her partner, so I bottled them inside, which made me snippy and resentful.
我妈妈不能容忍我说她伴侣的坏话，所以我把这些话藏在心里，这让我变得暴躁和怨恨。
I stopped being nice to my mom.
我不再对妈妈好。
I stopped being light and silly with her.
我对她不再那么轻松和愚蠢了。
And as it turns out, I had reason to be worried.
事实证明，我有理由担心。
Two days after the wedding, at the age of 49, my mom had a massive stroke.
婚礼后两天，49 岁的我妈妈突发严重中风。
There had been signs she wasn't well on her wedding day already.
有迹象表明她在婚礼当天就身体不太好。
And in the days following her hospitalization I developed a theory that her body, not her mind, knew that the marriage was a mistake.
在她住院后的几天里，我提出了一个理论：她的身体，而不是她的思想，知道这段婚姻是一个错误。
I ran this by my mom.
这是我妈妈帮我办的。
I think that's true.
我认为这是真的。
I mean, why was I sweating so much?
我的意思是，我为什么出这么多汗？
Why was I-- I think it's true.
为什么我——我认为这是真的。
I knew.
我知道。
I knew when I was buying my dress.
我买衣服的时候就知道了。
I knew when I wasn't as happy.
我知道我什么时候不那么高兴。
I do believe that I anticipated this awfulness ahead of time.
我确实相信我提前预见到了这种可怕的情况。
In your body?
在你的身体里？
Linda Maum In every fiber.
琳达·毛姆 在每根纤维中。
Oh, jeez.
哦，天哪。
I mean, I think to me that's heartbreaking to hear, because that's what I thought was happening.
我的意思是，我认为听到这个消息令人心碎，因为这就是我认为正在发生的事情。
That's all right.
没关系。
You can cry, Mom.
你可以哭，妈妈。
It's all right.
没关系。
OK, I'm crying, so put that in.
好吧，我哭了，所以把它放进去。
OK, so I should have called off the wedding.
好吧，所以我应该取消婚礼。
And I knew that, because I was just overwhelmed with everything, end of story.
我知道这一点，因为我对一切都不知所措，故事结束了。
I entered this conversation with a bunch of questions from my mother, but it was coming down to one.
我带着母亲提出的一系列问题进入了这次谈话，但最后只剩下一个问题。
How come you didn't listen to your guts?
你怎么不听你的心声呢？
I think there were a lot of moments where you could have, and you didn't.
我认为有很多时刻你可以拥有，但你没有。
Were you raised to defer to men, or?
你是从小就服从男人的吗？
I was raised that I knew nothing.
我从小就被认为自己一无所知。
I mean, I was always wrong.
我的意思是，我一直都是错的。
You were raised to believe you knew nothing?
你从小就相信自己一无所知？
Right.
正确的。
Courtney Maum Because you're a woman?
考特尼·毛姆 因为你是女人？
My mother told me this.
这是我妈妈告诉我的。
So my mother was very domineering.
所以我妈就很霸道。
And she made me believe that I was worthless and everything else.
她让我相信我毫无价值以及其他一切。
And so when I married Mr. X, I think that came back to haunt me, all my negativity against myself.
因此，当我与 X 先生结婚时，我认为这又困扰着我，我对自己的所有消极态度。
And I think I didn't listen to myself because I couldn't be right.
我想我没有听自己的话，因为我不可能是对的。
I couldn't be right.
我不可能是对的。
That's so wild to hear.
听到这真是太疯狂了。
Because when I was little, my mom was the most capable person-- physically, socially, financially, a total financial whiz, the best dressed, the best looking, the best driver, the most fun, all of these fantastic things.
因为当我小的时候，我的妈妈是最有能力的人——身体上、社交上、财务上，一个十足的财务奇才，穿着最好的，长相最好的，最好的司机，最有趣的，所有这些奇妙的事情。
And she had a real reputation still among my friends in school.
她在我学校的朋友中仍然享有很高的声誉。
Yeah, it's emotional to think of.
是的，想想就很感慨。
Among my friends in school, it was just like, how everyone looked up to Linda Maum.
在我学校的朋友中，每个人都尊敬琳达·毛姆。
Well, to me this is all very sad.
嗯，对我来说这一切都很悲伤。
Because, again, it goes back to my mother-- and I hate doing this-- going back to my mother and blaming my mother for some of the things I became.
因为，这又回到了我的母亲身边——我讨厌这样做——回到我的母亲身边，并把我变成的一些事情归咎于我的母亲。
And she was a huge smoker, if I'm remembering correctly.
如果我没记错的话，她是个烟鬼。
Oh, giant, giant, giant.
哦，巨人，巨人，巨人。
I was so angry at myself for being a smoker.
我对自己是个烟民感到非常生气。
I just didn't want to smoke, and then you made it a--
我只是不想抽烟，然后你就把它变成了--
My mom also had one main question for me.
我妈妈也有一个主要问题要问我。
Why did you dislike me so much as a teenager?
为什么你这么不喜欢我十几岁的时候？
You kind of have answered that, really, with all the things that were going on.
你确实已经通过所发生的所有事情回答了这个问题。
But do you want to stop there and let me answer it?
但你想停下来让我回答吗？
Sure, if you have-- yeah.
当然，如果你有——是的。
Courtney Maum I have additional--
考特尼·毛姆 我还有额外的——
[SIGHS] Courtney Maum I'm going to bristle at the word "dislike" because I actually liked you a lot, and I looked up to you in a lot of ways.
[叹息] Courtney Maum 我会对“不喜欢”这个词感到愤怒，因为我实际上很喜欢你，而且我在很多方面都很尊敬你。
What I could not stand was that you let yourself be walked all over by lesser men, by men specifically, but also men that either didn't seem to deserve you or were actually bad people that weren't respected.
我无法忍受的是，你让自己被低等的男人，特别是男人，而且还有那些看起来不值得你的男人，或者实际上是不受尊重的坏人的男人所践踏。
You really were such a strong-- you want to say something?
你真是太坚强了——你想说点什么吗？
Yeah, I want to know what men they were.
是的，我想知道他们是什么人。
I thought it was just Mr. X.
我还以为只是X先生呢
I mean, I don't remember anybody.
我的意思是，我不记得任何人。
Out of respect for my father-- I'm still grieving.
出于对我父亲的尊重——我仍然感到悲伤。
He just passed.
他刚刚过去。
I don't want to talk too much about my dad, but my father did not always treat you with a great amount of respect.
我不想过多谈论我的父亲，但我的父亲并不总是对你非常尊重。
So I do include him in some of the men that I feel you were subservient to.
所以我确实把他列入了一些我认为你屈服的人中。
What I saw growing up in Greenwich, Connecticut in the '80s and '90s when Greenwich was truly the bedroom town of Wall Street, what I saw was a lot of vivacious men who got to go somewhere else all day long and come home to children that were bathed and these beautiful women that were their wives-- put out fresh flowers, had dinner out.
我在八十年代和九十年代在康涅狄格州格林威治长大，当时格林威治确实是华尔街的卧室小镇，我看到的是很多活泼的男人，他们整天去别的地方，回到家给孩子们洗澡，这些漂亮的女人是他们的妻子——放鲜花，出去吃晚饭。
And the man just came and put his feet under the table, ate the food, and then got to go take a load off in a study.
那人就过来了，把脚放在桌子底下，吃了饭，然后就去书房里卸了重担。
And so growing up, I was like, well, I'll be my dad.
所以在成长过程中，我就想，好吧，我会成为我的父亲。
I'll be the man.
我会成为那个男人。
I want to come home and have dinner at the table.
我想回家并在餐桌上吃晚饭。
I want to drive a cool car to work.
我想开一辆很酷的车去上班。
And so something I bristled against with you is at a certain point, you were taking on so much, and it didn't necessarily seem to be bringing you joy.
所以我对你感到愤怒的一点是，在某个时刻，你承担了这么多，但这似乎并不一定会给你带来快乐。
And Mr. X came into the picture.
X 先生也出现了。
And in the beginning, I think he did-- he seemed to really worship you.
一开始，我认为他确实——他似乎真的很崇拜你。
But certainly, as the years went by, I saw a man who demanded to be served and did not fetch as much as his own ice cubes.
但可以肯定的是，随着时间的流逝，我看到一个人要求得到服务，却拿不到他自己的冰块那么多。
And that made me really angry at you.
这让我对你很生气。
I wanted you to stand up for yourself.
我希望你为自己挺身而出。
Well, I think it's-- in my mind it was dislike of me because of the way you talked to me and the way you avoided me.
嗯，我认为——在我看来，这是因为你对我说话的方式以及你避开我的方式而不喜欢我。
I could never see it any other way.
我无法以其他方式看待它。
Your tone of voice, I mean, I don't know how it could understand that that was because of my lack of respect for myself.
你的语气，我的意思是，我不知道它怎么能理解那是因为我不尊重自己。
Yeah.
是的。
No, I don't think you could have.
不，我认为你不可能。
I mean, I was a B.
我的意思是，我是B。
My mom's got a point here.
我妈妈说的有道理。
I was sending mixed signals.
我发出了混合信号。
I loved her.
我爱她。
I was mean to her.
我对她很刻薄。
I wanted her to be a feminist baddie who kicked out Mr. X, but I also benefited from her commitment to homemaking-- the awesome dinners, her driving me around.
我希望她成为一个女权主义坏人，赶走 X 先生，但我也受益于她对家务的投入——美味的晚餐，她开车带我四处走动。
It was confusing.
这很令人困惑。
I was confusing.
我很困惑。
But I was clear on one thing, Mom.
但我很清楚一件事，妈妈。
You chose him over us.
你选择了他而不是我们。
You kept on choosing him.
你一直选择他。
But one night last October, she made a different choice.
但去年十月的一个晚上，她做出了不同的选择。
In the kitchen of the house that Mr. X had designed to look art deco in style, but instead came out looking like a White Castle burger joint, my mom fell and broke her back.
X 先生设计的房子的厨房看起来很有装饰艺术风格，但结果却看起来像白色城堡汉堡店，我妈妈摔倒了，摔断了背。
Though it was early in the evening, Mr. X was too drunk to help her.
虽然已经是傍晚时分，X先生却喝得酩酊大醉，无力帮助她。
She lay on the floor for hours.
她在地板上躺了几个小时。
Finally, he brought her her cell phone so she could call an ambulance herself.
最后，他给她带来了手机，以便她可以自己叫救护车。
When I was on that floor, I swore I was going to do everything I could to get rid of him.
当我在那层楼时，我发誓我会尽一切努力摆脱他。
She was hospitalized for months, unable to walk.
她住院数月，无法行走。
Before the accident, I'd almost given up on my mom, but now she told me that she'd reached a turning point.
事故发生之前，我几乎要放弃妈妈了，但现在她告诉我，她已经到了一个转折点。
She gave me power of attorney to fight in court on her behalf to evict Mr. X.
她给了我授权书，让我代表她在法庭上驱逐 X 先生。
For months, I went everywhere with legal paperwork in case I was called into court.
几个月来，我到处都带着法律文书，以防被传唤出庭。
It was hard, and it was ugly.
这很困难，而且很丑陋。
It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, actually.
事实上，这是我一生中做过的最艰难的事情。
But we won.
但我们赢了。
Mr. X left the house in an unholy state.
X先生在不圣洁的状态下离开了家。
I spent weeks cleaning up after him, boxing up his possessions.
我花了几个星期的时间跟在他后面打扫卫生，把他的东西装箱。
My mom came home from the hospital.
我妈妈从医院回来了。
My brother and his wife moved in with their cat, who took a particular liking to my mom.
我哥哥和他的妻子带着他们的猫搬进来，猫特别喜欢我妈妈。
I didn't know how complicated it was going to be to get about.
我不知道事情会变得多么复杂。
And at that point, I didn't know you were going to be so instrumental in doing it.
那时，我不知道你会在这件事上发挥如此大的作用。
Because of the amount of time you spent down here, I realized how much you cared about me.
因为你在这里度过的时间，我意识到你有多么关心我。
Until then, I really didn't know.
直到那时，我真的不知道。
I didn't.
我没有。
Mr. X drove us apart, and kicking him out is what brought us back together.
X 先生让我们分开，把他赶出去才让我们重新走到一起。
It's a strange thing to rally around, but this is where we are.
团结起来是一件奇怪的事情，但这就是我们所处的位置。
My mom is 79.
我妈妈79岁了。
I'm nearly 50.
我快50岁了。
We have the rest of our lives to catch up on what we've missed.
我们有余生来弥补我们错过的一切。
Courtney Maum.
考特尼·毛姆.
Her latest novel is called Alan Opts Out.
她的最新小说名为《艾伦选择退出》。
Dana Chivvis produced this story.
达纳·奇夫维斯 (Dana Chivvis) 制作了这个故事。
We did reach out to Mr. X.
我们确实联系了 X 先生。
And he told us he's designed hundreds of houses.
他告诉我们他设计了数百栋房屋。
He had lots of friends.
他有很多朋友。
He says he never left any house in any kind of disrepair in his life.
他说，他一生中从未留下过任何年久失修的房子。
Coming up, a man goes back to the job of his teenage dreams to see what is the same and what is gone forever with the passage of time.
接下来，一个男人回到了他少年时代梦想的工作，看看什么是一样的，什么是随着时间的流逝而永远消失的。
That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台稍后将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, intergenerational space travel, stories of people braving the vast distances that separate young and old, trying to understand life on the other side of the divide.
今天的节目是代际太空旅行，讲述了人们勇敢地跨越年轻人和老年人之间的遥远距离，试图了解鸿沟另一边的生活的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two-- Cinema Veri-teen.
第二幕——Cinema Veri-teen。
So when one of our producers, Ike Sriskandarajah, was a teenager, he had the greatest job he could humanly imagine.
因此，当我们的制片人之一艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾 (Ike Sriskandarajah) 十几岁的时候，他就拥有了他能想象到的最棒的工作。
And that was, he worked at a movie theater.
那就是，他在一家电影院工作。
Wore a cummerbund to work every day, snuck around the managers with secret schemes of his own.
每天都系着腰带上班，带着自己的秘密计划在经理身边溜达。
This was back in 2003, more than 20 years ago.
那是2003年的事了，距今已有20多年了。
And Ike wanted to know, is the job still the best?
艾克想知道，这份工作仍然是最好的吗？
He traveled back to his hometown in Wisconsin and spent some time at his old movie theater, the Marcus Point Cinema in Madison.
他回到威斯康星州的家乡，在他的老电影院麦迪逊的马库斯角电影院呆了一段时间。
My friend Marc vouched for me to his manager.
我的朋友马克向他的经理担保了我。
That's how I got hired there.
我就是这样被那里录用的。
And Marc knew how to make the most of the job.
马克知道如何充分利用这份工作。
He taught me which door was the easiest to let your friends in, how to give away free popcorn by filling up discarded plastic bags so you don't mess up your popcorn tub count, and why volunteering to clean the bathroom was actually secretly a great job, because you got out of the concession stand, and you could sneak into a movie for a scene or two on the clock.
他教我哪扇门最容易让你的朋友进来，如何通过装满废弃的塑料袋来免费赠送爆米花，这样你就不会弄乱爆米花桶的数量，以及为什么自愿打扫浴室实际上是一项很棒的工作，因为你走出了小卖部，你可以偷偷溜进电影里看一两个场景。
By senior year, I stacked lunch and study hall together in my schedule, and I'd treat friends to a school day matinee with popcorn and soda.
到了高年级，我把午餐和自习安排在了我的日程安排中，我会请朋友们参加学校日场演出，并提供爆米花和苏打水。
I felt like a teen god, second to none in the pantheon of high school jobs, except maybe drug dealer.
我感觉自己就像一个青少年之神，在高中工作的万神殿中首屈一指，除了毒贩。
When I got back to my old theater, the outside looked the same-- classic old Hollywood movie marquee, and inside there's still busy, stain-masking carpet and the long tunnel with theaters on either side.
当我回到我的老剧院时，外面看起来还是一样——经典的老好莱坞电影大帐篷，而里面仍然有忙碌的、遮盖污渍的地毯和长长的隧道，两边都是剧院。
It even smelled the same.
甚至连味道都一样。
I had asked to speak to teens, employees who were the same age I was when I started, but the company's comms team and their HR department said no. Instead, I could talk to a 26-year-old assistant manager named Darren Klingaman.
我曾要求与青少年、与我入职时同龄的员工交谈，但公司的传播团队和人力资源部门拒绝了。相反，我可以与 26 岁的助理经理达伦·克林加曼 (Darren Klingaman) 交谈。
He was behind the ticket booth when I arrived-- clean shaven, wearing a dress shirt with little flowers and a tie to match.
我到达时，他就在售票亭后面——胡子刮得干干净净，穿着一件印有小花的正装衬衫，还系着一条相配的领带。
Darren told me he did not apply for the same reasons I did, namely free movies.
达伦告诉我，他申请的原因与我不同，即免费电影。
No, it was just-- I just lucked out that that was a perk.
不，这只是——我只是很幸运，这是一项额外福利。
I didn't know about it until afterwards.
我直到后来才知道这件事。
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
OK.
好的。
Darren Klingaman It was a nice surprise.
达伦·克林加曼 这是一个很好的惊喜。
Nice surprise.
不错的惊喜。
Darren was just looking for any job.
达伦只是在找工作。
Besides getting to see movies, what about the other things that made the job so fun back in the early aughts?
除了看电影之外，还有什么其他事情让这份工作在早期变得如此有趣呢？
Are they still part of it?
他们仍然是其中的一部分吗？
I ran all my favorite hijinks we pulled at the movie theater by Darren.
我在达伦的电影院里玩了所有我最喜欢的恶作剧。
Before I tell you about the first thing, I just want you to remember our brains were still developing when we thought this was so funny.
在我告诉你第一件事之前，我只是想让你记住，当我们认为这很有趣时，我们的大脑仍在发育。
So basically, if you were the person who ripped tickets, you were supposed to say, enjoy your show.
所以基本上，如果你是那个抢票的人，你应该说，享受你的表演。
But some genius came up with a twist that involved referencing male genitalia of specific dimensions.
但一些天才想出了一个转折点，其中涉及参考特定尺寸的男性生殖器。
I told Darren about this.
我把这件事告诉了达伦。
We'd mumble under our breaths, enjoy your chode.
我们会小声嘀咕，享受你的旋律。
OK.
好的。
Ike Sriskandarajah I was wondering if that's still happening.
Ike Sriskandarajah 我想知道这种情况是否还在发生。
Not that I'm aware of.
据我所知。
Ike Sriskandarajah You've never heard somebody say, enjoy your chode?
Ike Sriskandarajah 你从来没有听过有人说“享受你的chode”吗？
No, I have not.
不，我没有。
Ike Sriskandarajah Do you think that joke's funny?
Ike Sriskandarajah 你觉得这个笑话好笑吗？
I noticed that.
我注意到了这一点。
In the early aughts, it killed, at least with the kids working at the concession stand.
在早期，它是致命的，至少对于在小卖部工作的孩子们来说是这样。
I think that was the most common, because we're mumbling it.
我认为这是最常见的，因为我们在咕哝着。
You're mumbling it, right.
你在嘟哝着，对吧。
Yeah, OK.
是的，好的。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I think it could use some work.
我的意思是，我认为它需要一些工作。
So that's a change.
所以这是一个改变。
In 2026, chode's over, folks.
伙计们，2026 年，chode 将结束。
Another thing that I thought was so fun was volunteering to flatten boxes out back.
我认为很有趣的另一件事是自愿将后面的盒子压平。
If that sounds boring, you don't know the WrestleMania technique that my friend taught me.
如果这听起来很无聊，那么你不知道我朋友教我的摔跤狂热技巧。
Basically, you could fill up the industrial dumpster out back with unflattened boxes, pull yourself up to balance on the metal edge, and then launch yourself into the air and drop the People's Elbow on a box.
基本上，你可以用未压平的盒子填满后面的工业垃圾箱，将自己拉到金属边缘上保持平衡，然后将自己发射到空中并将人肘放在盒子上。
Well, I tell you, that sounds like a very interesting workman's comp issue, getting ready.
好吧，我告诉你，这听起来像是一个非常有趣的工人补偿问题，准备好。
That's area general manager Tom Reichilt, who corporate PR asked to join.
那是区域总经理 Tom Reichilt，公司公关部邀请他加入。
So many things I loved about this job are gone.
我对这份工作所热爱的很多东西都消失了。
We wore tuxedos to work made of this magical material that was impervious to nacho cheese stains.
我们穿着由这种神奇材料制成的燕尾服去上班，这种材料不受玉米片奶酪污渍的影响。
During a tornado, we got evacuated into the manager's office, where we took an ID from the lost and found that looked enough like me to buy malt liquor exactly once.
在一场龙卷风期间，我们被疏散到经理办公室，在那里我们从迷路者那里拿了一张身份证，发现它看起来很像我，正好可以买一次麦芽酒。
Now, kids are never let anywhere near the lost and found.
现在，孩子们永远不会被允许靠近失物招领处。
The mini donut machine burned me, but it made delicious donuts.
迷你甜甜圈机烧伤了我，但它做出了美味的甜甜圈。
Back in the day, it burned Area General Manager Tom Reichilt too.
当年，区域总经理 Tom Reichilt 也被烧伤了。
I probably have one here somewhere, maybe there.
我可能在某个地方有一个，也许在那儿。
A little different these days.
这些天有点不同。
That's gone too.
那也消失了。
But what about the big one, my favorite benefit of the job-- letting my friends in for free?
但是，我最喜欢的工作好处之一——免费让我的朋友们进来——又如何呢？
It really was the coolest thing I could think of, to be able to grant this wish to anybody-- a free night at the movies, a drink, popcorn.
这确实是我能想到的最酷的事情，能够实现任何人的这个愿望——免费看电影一晚，喝一杯，爆米花。
We were allowed to bring in one guest, but I was always happy to let in more friends through the back door near the dumpster.
我们被允许带一位客人进来，但我总是很高兴让更多的朋友从垃圾箱附近的后门进来。
Darren says that, yes, that perk is still around, but these days, the back door is not necessary.
达伦说，是的，这种福利仍然存在，但现在，后门已经没有必要了。
Just have them walk in the front door, come greet them over here, and we'll hook them up.
只要让他们走进前门，来这里迎接他们，我们就会把他们联系起来。
I always let them all know that there's no reason to be sneaky in any way.
我总是让他们都知道，没有理由以任何方式偷偷摸摸。
If you want your friends to come see a movie, tell me, and I'll get them in.
如果你想让你的朋友来看电影，请告诉我，我会让他们进来。
I mean, it's a perk.
我的意思是，这是一种福利。
So they're allowed to bring in their friends.
所以他们被允许带他们的朋友进来。
But calling out to an unscientific survey I did of three teens around America who work in movie theaters right now, I learned they don't want to.
但我对美国各地目前在电影院工作的三名青少年进行了一项不科学的调查，我了解到他们不想这样做。
One 18-year-old in Kansas City says she prefers watching movies at home, where you can talk to your friends during the show and watch basically any movie ever made.
堪萨斯城的一名 18 岁女孩表示，她更喜欢在家看电影，在那里您可以在放映期间与朋友聊天，并观看几乎所有制作过的电影。
What a waste.
真是浪费啊。
Darren at least understands how bringing someone in for free has the power to actually change your life.
达伦至少明白免费带人进来如何能够真正改变你的生活。
When I first started here, a couple months later, I met my girlfriend.
几个月后，当我第一次来这里时，我遇到了我的女朋友。
I brought her to a date here after hours.
下班后我带她来这里约会。
That might not technically be allowed.
这在技术上可能是不允许的。
Oh, everything was closed.
哦，一切都关门了。
We were closed down.
我们被关闭了。
I asked her if she wanted to come see a movie.
我问她是否想来看电影。
So we watched Wicked.
所以我们看了《邪恶》。
Whoa, you brought your girlfriend here because you had the keys to the place.
哇，你带你女朋友来这里是因为你有这个地方的钥匙。
I did.
我做到了。
I had the keys.
我有钥匙。
She wasn't actually my girlfriend quite yet.
她实际上还不是我的女朋友。
Good first date.
第一次约会很好。
I knew Wicked was one of her favorite musicals.
我知道《魔法坏女巫》是她最喜欢的音乐剧之一。
So it was like, perfect thing.
所以这就像完美的事情。
Wicked just came out.
恶人刚出来。
Why don't we watch it?
我们为什么不看呢？
Private showing and the biggest screen we can.
私人放映和我们能提供的最大屏幕。
Darren ushered her into an empty theater.
达伦领她走进一间空荡荡的剧院。
Sat her down in the best seat in the house.
让她坐在家里最好的座位上。
Popcorn, Diet Coke in the cup holder.
杯架里有爆米花、健怡可乐。
Brought a sweater because theaters get chilly.
带了一件毛衣，因为剧院很冷。
And then he ran up to the projectionist booth, fast forwarded through the ads, and ran back down to sit with her just in time for the show to start.
然后他跑到放映室，快进播放广告，然后跑回来和她坐在一起，正好赶上节目开始。
That was two years ago.
那是两年前的事了。
Now they're engaged.
现在他们订婚了。
What other job would let you pull off a first date like that?
还有什么工作能让你完成这样的第一次约会呢？
Honestly, I mean, it was so memorable.
老实说，我的意思是，这真是令人难忘。
We still think about it.
我们还在思考这个问题。
Now, tell me if I'm overstating it, but would you guys be getting married if it wasn't for that?
现在，告诉我我是否夸大了，但如果不是因为这个，你们会结婚吗？
I would hope so, but I don't know.
我希望如此，但我不知道。
It's a good question because of how big of a thing it was and how meaningful and unique it was that it definitely bumped me up some points.
这是一个很好的问题，因为它有多大，有多么有意义和独特，它确实让我提高了一些分数。
So hopefully, but definitely not as easily.
所以希望如此，但绝对不会那么容易。
It's really similar to the thing that happened to me.
这真的和发生在我身上的事情很相似。
OK.
好的。
Ike Sriskandarajah When I was here--
Ike Sriskandarajah 当我在这里的时候——
I told Darren that I also once tried to impress a girl while on the job.
我告诉达伦，我也曾经在工作中试图给一个女孩留下深刻的印象。
When I met her, I filled up a discarded plastic bag with popcorn and slipped it to her.
当我见到她时，我在一个废弃的塑料袋里装满了爆米花，然后塞给了她。
Another time, I let her and her friend in the back.
还有一次，我让她和她的朋友坐在后面。
I'm no longer wearing a tuxedo to work, but that girl I snuck in, we're married and have two children.
我不再穿着燕尾服去上班，但我偷偷带进来的那个女孩，我们结婚了，有两个孩子。
The job today definitely seems less fun, but there's still a little movie magic left.
今天的工作看起来确实没那么有趣了，但仍然有一点电影的魔力。
Ike Sriskandarajah.
艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾。
He's one of the producers of our show.
他是我们节目的制作人之一。
By the way, none of the three teenagers I talked to knew what chode meant, but some of them thought it was funny anyway.
顺便说一句，我采访的三个青少年都不知道 chode 是什么意思，但他们中的一些人还是觉得这很有趣。
Act Three-- Mama, Can You Hair Me?
第三幕——妈妈，你能为我理发吗？
Myra Flynn is in her 40s, and the person across the divide in this story is six.
迈拉·弗林 (Myra Flynn) 40 多岁，而这个故事中跨越鸿沟的人只有 6 岁。
It's her daughter.
这是她的女儿。
The two of them have been in a bit of a standoff when it comes to getting ready for school in the morning.
为了早上准备上学，两人陷入了僵局。
It was going so badly, Myra started recording these morning showdowns, trying to figure out if there was some way to fix things.
事情进展得很糟糕，迈拉开始记录这些早上的对决，试图找出是否有办法解决问题。
Here she is.
她在这里。
My mornings used to look so different.
我的早晨看起来很不一样。
In my younger days as a touring musician, I'd greet the sunrise on my way home from a gig in some random city and face plant into my bed.
在我年轻的时候，作为一名巡演音乐家，我会在某个城市的演出结束回家的路上迎接日出，然后把植物放在床上。
But now I start my day at 7:10 AM, engaged in a battle of wills with my daughter Avalon over her hair.
但现在我从早上 7:10 开始新的一天，与我女儿阿瓦隆 (Avalon) 的头发进行了一场意志之战。
Hey, baby.
嘿，宝贝。
It's time to do your hair.
是时候做头发了。
No, we're going to do it because you got to be at school in 10 minutes.
不，我们会这样做，因为你必须在 10 分钟内到达学校。
But Mommy.
但是妈妈。
Myra Flynn When I was a kid, my mom and I had a similar hair routine.
迈拉·弗林（Myra Flynn） 当我还是个孩子的时候，我和妈妈也有类似的发型习惯。
She would sit me down at the breakfast table every morning, grab a cup of water and a hard bristle brush, and rake through my curls.
每天早上，她都会让我坐在早餐桌旁，拿一杯水和一把硬毛刷，梳理我的卷发。
It hurt like hell, but there was no point in complaining because my mom made it clear we didn't have time for any of that.
疼得要命，但抱怨是没有意义的，因为我妈妈明确表示我们没有时间做这些。
My hair had to get done.
我的头发必须完成。
That's just how it was.
事情就是这样。
And that's just how it is for Avalon.
阿瓦隆就是这样。
Black hair is Black hair.
黑发就是黑发。
And look, I'm not doing box braids or knotless styles, or writing her name in the side of her head with cornrows.
瞧，我不是在做盒形辫子或无结的款式，也不是用玉米辫在她头的一侧写下她的名字。
I'm just trying to comb through it and put it in a ponytail so that no one looks at us crazy.
我只是想把它梳理一下，扎成马尾辫，这样就不会有人看我们疯了。
So every morning, I take her hair out of whatever shape it's landed in after a night of sleep without a bonnet.
所以每天早上，我都会把她的头发从不带帽子的一夜睡眠后的任何形状中取出。
I still haven't found one that stays on her head.
我还没找到她头上的那个。
Then I grab three different brushes, a big jar of leave-in conditioner, a spray bottle full of water, and get to work, which Avalon, who's six, hates.
然后我拿起三把不同的刷子、一大罐免洗护发素、一个装满水的喷雾瓶，然后开始工作，这是六岁的阿瓦隆讨厌的。
Ow.
噢。
Myra Flynn Stop, baby.
迈拉·弗林 停下来，宝贝。
Avi, it's not that bad.
阿维，没那么糟糕。
Stop, stop, stop.
停下来，停下来，停下来。
No, no. I can't use that brush.
不，不。我不能用那把刷子。
I have to use this brush.
我必须要用这个刷子。
I just wanted to hold it.
我只是想握住它。
Myra Flynn No, baby.
迈拉·弗林 不，宝贝。
You need to just-- please, can you just look forward, and bend your neck for me.
你需要——拜托，你能向前看，为我弯下脖子吗？
Bend your neck down.
把脖子弯下来。
For the record, holding this brush is a stalling tactic for Avalon.
根据记录，拿着这把刷子对阿瓦隆来说是一种拖延战术。
She wants to hold it so I can't use it.
她想保留它，这样我就无法使用它。
And I see straight through you, Avalon Mathis Wills.
我看穿了你，阿瓦隆·马西斯·威尔斯。
I know my daughter.
我了解我的女儿。
Avalon, by all intents and purposes, seems impervious to pain.
无论如何，阿瓦隆似乎都不受疼痛的影响。
I've literally watched her face plant from the top of monkey bars onto the grass, only to bounce up and try it again.
我亲眼目睹了她的脸从单杠顶部栽到草地上，然后又弹起来再试一次。
This is a kid who doesn't want to wait for her teeth to fall out naturally.
这是一个不想等待牙齿自然脱落的孩子。
As soon as they're loose, she's trying to pull them out of her head.
一旦它们松动，她就试图将它们从自己的脑海中拉出来。
And she won't even let the tooth fairy take her teeth.
她甚至不会让牙仙子夺走她的牙齿。
She wants to make jewelry out of them.
她想用它们制作珠宝。
She's perfectly weird and brave in all the best ways.
她在各方面都非常古怪和勇敢。
So for her to shake and cry only with me is devastating.
所以对她来说，只和我一起颤抖和哭泣是毁灭性的。
But also-- and I'm not proud of this-- a big part of me is like, girl, nobody's dying here.
但同时——我并不为此感到自豪——我内心的很大一部分就像，女孩，没有人会死在这里。
Suck it up.
把它吸起来。
It hurts.
好痛。
Myra Flynn Baby, I'm sorry.
迈拉·弗林 宝贝，对不起。
I have to get it.
我必须得到它。
Will it hurt always?
会一直痛吗？
Myra Flynn Probably, baby.
迈拉·弗林 也许吧，宝贝。
Sometimes the things that we need are not comfortable.
有时我们需要的东西并不让人舒服。
Hold up.
耽误。
Did I just actually say that?
我刚才真的这么说了吗？
I'm not even sure I believe it.
我什至不确定我是否相信它。
You know that moment when you open your mouth to say something and out comes your mother?
你知道当你张嘴要说什么的那一刻，你妈妈就出来了吗？
This is one of the few times I heard that in my life, and it really stuck with me.
这是我一生中为数不多的几次听到这样的话之一，它真的让我印象深刻。
My mom was the Black female dean of a military college.
我妈妈是一所军事学院的黑人女院长。
She taught me that sometimes in life, there are things like hair that you just have to tough out.
她告诉我，有时在生活中，有些事情，比如头发，你必须坚持下去。
In so much of my parenting, I've tried to be a little different, do it my way.
在我养育孩子的大部分时间里，我都尝试着做一些不同的事情，按照我自己的方式去做。
I don't know if I totally believe that Black kids should just have to tough it out when they're in pain.
我不知道我是否完全相信黑人孩子应该在痛苦时坚持下去。
I also don't want to be a parent that teaches their Black kid that everything in life should feel like a lukewarm bath.
我也不想成为一个教导他们的黑人孩子生活中的一切都应该感觉像温水浴的父母。
When it comes to Avalon's hair, I feel so conflicted, like my two parenting styles are at war.
当谈到阿瓦隆的头发时，我感到很矛盾，就像我的两种教养方式正在交战一样。
And when I heard myself say, sometimes the things we need are not comfortable, I felt like I had to talk to my mom about it.
当我听到自己说，有时我们需要的东西并不舒服时，我觉得我必须和妈妈谈谈这件事。
I needed her to back me up on this.
我需要她在这件事上支持我。
So I called her, Miss Martha Mathis herself.
所以我亲自称呼她为玛莎·马西斯小姐。
I walked her through what had been going on with Avalon, the battle with her hair every day right before school.
我向她讲述了阿瓦隆发生的事情，每天上学前她都在与头发作斗争。
And I asked her, this is just the way it is, right, to which she said--
我问她，事情就是这样，对吧，她说——
No. I think I've found that's what you want to avoid.
不，我想我发现这就是你想要避免的。
Because at some point, if you're rushing and you're trying to do our hair, then it's going to hurt.
因为在某些时候，如果你急于做我们的头发，那么就会受伤。
If it's going to sit up there for days without anybody doing anything, then you're going to get what you get.
如果它会在那里呆上几天而没有人做任何事情，那么你就会得到你所得到的。
My mom saying pain was something that you should or even could avoid was wild to me.
我妈妈说疼痛是你应该甚至可以避免的事情，这对我来说很疯狂。
She did my hair up so tightly I got migraines at school.
她把我的头发扎得很紧，我在学校就得了偏头痛。
Mama, do you remember one time when you were doing my hair, and you were doing it and doing it, and I was like, ow, ow!
妈妈，你还记得有一次你给我做头发，你一直做啊做，我当时就想，噢，噢！
And I was eating breakfast at the breakfast table, and then I threw up?
我在早餐桌上吃早餐，然后就吐了？
I don't, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
我不知道，但这并不意味着它没有发生。
It just means I don't remember it.
这只是意味着我不记得了。
Yeah.
是的。
Martha Mathis Then what did we do?
玛莎·马西斯 那我们做了什么？
Oh, you went and grabbed the trash can, just in case I had to again.
哦，你去抓了垃圾桶，以防万一我不得不再次这样做。
But yeah, I just remember it hurting a lot.
但是，是的，我只记得它很痛。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Myra Flynn My mom once described my parenting style as permissive.
迈拉·弗林 我妈妈曾经形容我的养育方式是宽容的。
Sometimes I feel like I have to be firmer when she's around so she'll be proud of me, or something like that.
有时我觉得当她在身边时我必须更加坚定，这样她才会为我感到骄傲，或者类似的事情。
So I couldn't quite wrap my head around what I was hearing.
所以我无法完全理解我所听到的内容。
I'm kind of surprised to hear you say that, no, it doesn't have to hurt.
听到你这么说我有点惊讶，不，它不一定会伤害。
I feel like you're a tough cookie, Mama.
我觉得你是个坚强的人，妈妈。
I am.
我是。
Myra Flynn Yeah.
迈拉·弗林 是的。
And I feel like you raised me to be one.
我觉得你把我培养成了其中一员。
And I can feel that lesson starting as early as my hair, just as I can feel like I'm doing that with Avalon.
我能感觉到这个教训早在我的头发上就开始了，就像我能感觉到我正在与阿瓦隆一起做这件事。
Do you think that I should be making her tough for the world?
你认为我应该让她对这个世界变得坚强吗？
Like the way I'm talking about hair is a gateway into, like, toughen up.
就像我所说的头发是变得坚强的门户一样。
Do you think that--
你认为——
No. I wouldn't use hair as a gateway to toughen up because it has too many other racist and sexist implications.
不。我不会用头发作为坚强的门户，因为它有太多其他种族主义和性别歧视的含义。
Did you want me to toughen up in those moments when I was crying and like, ouch, this hurts?
当我哭泣时，你想让我坚强起来，就像，哎呀，这很痛吗？
No, no. It hurt.
不，不。很痛。
No. Why would you-- no.
不，你为什么要——不。
You didn't want me to toughen up and just be like, we got to get used to this because we're on a schedule.
你不想让我坚强起来，然后说，我们必须习惯这一点，因为我们是按计划进行的。
We got places to go.
我们还有地方可去。
Well, it was going to happen whether you were tough or not.
好吧，无论你是否坚强，这都会发生。
And at six-- I'll use Avalon's age-- she's as tough as she's going to be right now.
六岁时——我用阿瓦隆的年龄——她就和现在一样坚强。
And she can't be any tougher.
而且她不能再强硬了。
I think she's the toughest little girl I know.
我认为她是我认识的最坚强的小女孩。
So no, I would not have equated doing your hair with tough or not.
所以不，我不会把做头发与强硬或不强硬等同起来。
I always felt bad that for those 10, 15, how many ever minutes it was, that that's how you were starting your day.
我总是感到难过，因为那 10 分钟、15 分钟，这就是你开始新一天的方式。
I didn't know that she'd had any feelings about our mornings.
我不知道她对我们的早晨有什么感觉。
My mother told me it was the same for her when she was young.
我妈妈告诉我，她年轻的时候也是这样。
She sat between her mother's knees, and out came the hot combs, the hair grease, the brushes, the pain, which she likes to remind me was far worse than mine, as I remind my daughter, and we copy and paste.
她坐在她母亲的膝盖之间，滚烫的梳子、发油、刷子、疼痛，她喜欢提醒我，这些痛苦比我的要严重得多，正如我提醒我女儿的那样，我们复制并粘贴。
But instead of giving me the validation I wanted and letting me know that the way she'd done my hair is really the only way, my mom gave me some advice I really wasn't looking for.
但我妈妈并没有给我想要的认可，也没有让我知道她给我做头发的方式确实是唯一的方法，而是给了我一些我并不想要的建议。
Oh, to take care of?
哦，要照顾吗？
Yes, I've tried this.
是的，我已经尝试过这个。
We've tried this, yes.
我们已经尝试过了，是的。
Oh, you have?
哦，你有吗？
Myra Flynn Oh, yeah.
迈拉·弗林 噢，是的。
We've tried-- it's do-your-own-hair day.
我们已经尝试过——今天是自己做头发的日子。
Do-your-own-hair day in my house means we give Avalon a brush and some bows, and 15 minutes later, absolutely nothing has happened.
我家的“自己做头发日”意味着我们给 Avalon 一把刷子和一些蝴蝶结，15 分钟后，什么也没发生。
But it turned out that wasn't what my mother was suggesting.
但事实证明这并不是我母亲的建议。
No, I mean, have her do her own kitchen.
不，我的意思是，让她自己做厨房。
Well.
出色地。
Martha Mathis She'll be gentle with herself.
玛莎·马西斯 她会对自己很温柔。
If she does her own hair at this age, Mama, she's avoiding her kitchen altogether.
妈妈，如果她在这个年纪自己做头发，她就完全避开了厨房。
OK.
好的。
So it looks like-- I don't know-- a rat's nest.
所以它看起来像——我不知道——一个老鼠巢。
Nobody's going to see it.
没有人会看到它。
Yeah.
是的。
Martha Mathis And if you remind her now, get in there, because you don't want me in there.
玛莎·马西斯 如果你现在提醒她，就进去吧，因为你不想让我进去。
When you remind her of that, it's going to be your hand or mine.
当你提醒她这一点时，这将是你的手或我的手。
Yeah.
是的。
Martha Mathis I think if you give her something that she owns and if it's just this little bit back there, my goodness, let her have it.
玛莎·马西斯 我想如果你给她一些她拥有的东西，如果只是那么一点点，我的天哪，就让她拥有吧。
What would happen if you parted that off, though, seriously?
不过，如果你认真地分开的话会发生什么？
I'm hearing you.
我在听你说话。
I just don't-- I'm like-- when you're saying, why don't you try this, why don't you try giving Avalon a little section for herself, why didn't you try that with me?
我只是不——我想——当你说，你为什么不尝试一下，为什么不尝试给阿瓦隆自己留出一小部分，为什么不和我一起尝试呢？
Because no one told me that.
因为没有人告诉我这一点。
That's how messages are passed on.
这就是消息传递的方式。
The women my age, they were not brought up to even have these kind of conversations.
我这个年纪的女性，她们从小就没有接受过这种对话。
And I don't even know if I had them in my brain, I mean, back then.
我什至不知道我的大脑中是否有它们，我是说，当时。
But I'm saying for you, I would think you do have options.
但我想说的是，我认为你确实有选择。
When you know better, you do better.
当你了解得更多时，你就会做得更好。
The next time I did Avalon's hair, I let her do some of it.
下次我给阿瓦隆做头发时，我让她做了一些。
You ready to get the back just a little bit right here?
你准备好回来一点了吗？
Good job.
好工作。
Back here.
回到这里。
Look at that.
看看那个。
Why are you smiling?
你为什么微笑？
Whenever Mama's doing it, you're crying.
每当妈妈这样做的时候，你就会哭。
What's it feel like to do your own hair?
自己做头发是什么感觉？
It doesn't feel hard like a rock.
感觉不像石头那么硬。
But when Mama does it, it feels hard like a rock.
但当妈妈这样做的时候，感觉就像一块石头一样坚硬。
Your hair feels hard like a rock, or my brushing feels hard like a rock?
你的头发摸起来像石头一样硬，还是我的梳子摸起来像石头一样硬？
Oh, good.
哦，很好。
I don't think I've ever seen your kitchen look so good.
我想我从来没有见过你的厨房看起来这么好。
Should we show Papa?
我们应该给爸爸看吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Myra Flynn Papa Bear!
迈拉·弗林 熊爸爸！
Do you want to tell him?
你想告诉他吗？
Want to tell him?
想告诉他吗？
What about your kitchen?
你的厨房呢？
Avalon I did it.
阿瓦隆我做到了。
Good job, baby.
干得好，宝贝。
Myra Flynn As a parent, you're always looking for your failures.
迈拉·弗林（Myra Flynn） 作为父母，你总是在寻找自己的失败。
There are so many ways to fall short.
达不到要求的方法有很多。
But every once in a while, if you're lucky, the evidence is clear.
但每隔一段时间，如果你幸运的话，证据就会很清楚。
You did something really good for your kid.
你为你的孩子做了一些真正有益的事情。
And with my mom's help, I was able to change this one thing in the wheel of my own motherhood, and maybe one day, Avalon's.
在我妈妈的帮助下，我能够改变我自己母亲身份的这一件事，也许有一天，阿瓦隆的母亲身份也能改变这一点。
I want her to know what my mother knew and her mother before her, that when you're doing your hair some parts need someone else's hands, and some parts we can learn to hold ourselves.
我想让她知道我母亲和她母亲在她之前所知道的事情，当你做头发时，有些部分需要别人的手，而有些部分我们可以学会自己握住。
Myra Flynn.
迈拉·弗林。
She's the host of the podcast Homegoings with Myra Flynn, which is available wherever you get your podcasts.
她是 Myra Flynn 播客《Homegoings with Myra Flynn》的主持人，无论您在哪里观看播客，都可以收听该节目。
Her story was produced by Emmanuel Dzotsi.
她的故事由伊曼纽尔·佐西 (Emmanuel Dzotsi) 制作。
Well, our program was produced today by Dana Chivvis and Valerie Kipnis, who, by the way, produced the show across an intergenerational divide.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由 Dana Chivvis 和 Valerie Kipnis 制作的，顺便说一下，他们制作了这个跨越代际鸿沟的节目。
It was edited by David Kestenbaum.
它由大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆编辑。
The people who put together today's show include Adriene Lilly, Seth Lind, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Ruthie Petitto, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Ruby Schwartz, Lilly Sullivan, Alissa Shipp, Frances Swanson, Nancy Updike, and Julie Whitaker.
今天节目的制作人包括 Adriene Lilly、Seth Lind、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Ruthie Petitto、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Ruby Schwartz、Lilly Sullivan、Alissa Shipp、Frances Swanson、Nancy Updike 和 Julie Whitaker。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editors, David Kestenbaum and Nancy Updike.
我们的高级编辑 David Kestenbaum 和 Nancy Updike。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Diego Ongaro, Brendan Maum, Jaime Ardolino, Eileen and Mark Civin, Rebecca Babcock, Shane Manship, B.A.
今天特别感谢迭戈·翁加罗 (Diego Ongaro)、布伦丹·毛姆 (Brendan Maum)、杰米·阿多利诺 (Jaime Ardolino)、艾琳·西文 (Eileen) 和马克·西文 (Mark Civin)、丽贝卡·巴布科克 (Rebecca Babcock)、肖恩·曼希普 (Shane Manship)、B.A.
Parker, Phil Wills, Sam Yellowhorse Kesler, Meghan Keane, Laurie Laz, Dan Sinykin, Ray Tintori, Ben Mossman, Brian Houston, Cora Bruce, Ingrid Haftel, and Ellis Retzer.
帕克、菲尔·威尔斯、山姆·耶洛霍斯·凯斯勒、梅根·基恩、劳里·拉兹、丹·西尼金、雷·廷托里、本·莫斯曼、布莱恩·休斯顿、科拉·布鲁斯、英格丽德·哈夫特尔和埃利斯·雷泽。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks also to all of our This American Life Partners for helping us make the show with their contributions.
还要感谢《This American Life》所有合作伙伴的贡献，帮助我们制作了这个节目。
Life Partners get bonus episodes.
生活伙伴获得奖励剧集。
They get this newsletter where I and other staffers recommend films and TV shows and other stuff.
他们收到我和其他工作人员推荐电影、电视节目和其他内容的时事通讯。
They listen ad-free.
他们听的时候没有广告。
Join at thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.
加入 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners。
That link is also in the show notes.
该链接也在节目注释中。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, no matter what kind of restaurant we go to-- Italian, Mexican, Thai-- his order is always, always, always the same.
你知道，无论我们去什么样的餐厅——意大利、墨西哥、泰国——他点的菜总是、总是、总是一样的。
Give me some of that shrimp!
给我一些虾！
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.
艾拉·格拉斯 我是艾拉·格拉斯。
I'll be seeing you, of course, in the comments on Spotify.
当然，我们会在 Spotify 的评论中见到您。
And I will be back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我会带着更多关于《美国生活》的故事回来。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。