891: The Test Case - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #891 | July 10, 2026 891: The Test Case Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 891 集 | 2026 年 7 月 10 日 891：测试案例 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而生，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Yes, we need the police to come out to Prairieland Detention Center.

是的，我们需要警察来到草原拘留中心。

I don't know what's going on outside.

我不知道外面发生了什么。

They just told me to call.

他们只是让我打电话。

This is a 911 call on the Fourth of July a year ago, around 11:00 PM, Alvarado, Texas, about an hour outside of Dallas.

这是一年前 7 月 4 日晚上 11:00 左右拨打的 911 电话，地点为德克萨斯州阿尔瓦拉多，距达拉斯约一小时车程。

Yes, sir.

是的，先生。

Ira Glass The woman calling works at the Prairieland Detention Center.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 打电话的女士在草原拘留中心工作。

She at the front desk there.

她在那里的前台。

And she's calling because a bunch of people have suddenly shown up outside wearing black, some in masks, lined up on the other side of this long, barbed wire fence.

她打电话是因为外面突然出现了一群穿着黑色衣服的人，其中一些人戴着口罩，在长长的铁丝网的另一边排队。

They're setting off fireworks.

他们正在放烟花。

It's really loud.

真的很大声。

This facility is a detention center for ICE, full of people being held on immigration charges.

该设施是 ICE 的拘留中心，里面关押着因移民指控而被拘留的人。

Somebody in the crowd outside has a megaphone, starts calling out to the detainees inside.

外面人群中有人拿着扩音器，开始向里面的被拘留者喊话。

"Esperanza!

“埃斯佩兰萨！

Hope!

希望！

You are not forgotten." More fireworks go up.

你没有被忘记。”更多的烟花升起。

Oh, somebody's trying to get in.

噢，有人想闯进来。

Can you hurry up and send somebody?

你能不能快点派人来？

They outside walking the perimeter.

他们在外面走动。

I don't know, sir.

我不知道，先生。

All right.

好的。

We got them en route, OK?

我们已经在路上找到他们了，好吗？

Call us back if anything changes.

如果有任何变化请给我们回电。

A police officer rushes out to the facility, Lieutenant Thomas Gross from the Alvarado PD.

一名警官冲到该设施，他是阿尔瓦拉多警察局的托马斯·格罗斯中尉。

As soon as he switches on his siren, the dash cam activates in his car and his body cam turns on.

一旦他打开警报器，车内的行车记录仪就会启动，并且他的随身摄像头也会打开。

He turns into the Prairieland parking lot.

他拐进草原公园停车场。

In the car headlights, you can see somebody has sprayed "Fuck ICE" on a guard shack.

在车头灯里，你可以看到有人在警卫室喷了“Fuck ICE”。

Then as he pulls up, he sees somebody running in front of his car.

然后，当他停下来时，他看到有人跑在他的车前。

Hey, stop!

嘿，停下来！

Ira Glass He jumps out of the car, drawing his gun in one hand, walkie-talkie in the other.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）他跳下车，一手拔出枪，另一只手拿着对讲机。

And this next thing happens almost immediately, just six seconds after he gets out of the car.

接下来的事情几乎立即发生，就在他下车后六秒钟。

[GUNFIRE] Thomas Gross Fuck!

[枪声] 托马斯 格罗斯 他妈的！

Fuck!

他妈的！

Fuck, I'm hit!

妈的，我中招了！

"I'm hit," he yells.

“我被击中了，”他喊道。

He's shot in the upper shoulder, by his neck.

他的上肩、颈部中弹。

He fires back three times.

他还击了三枪。

[GUNFIRE] Shooter runs off and hides in a field-- sunflower field, actually.

[枪声] 枪手逃跑并躲在田野里——实际上是向日葵田。

They're all around the detention center.

他们都在看守所周围。

Then cops of all sorts arrive-- local police, Sheriff's Office, Texas Rangers.

然后各种各样的警察到达——当地警察、治安官办公室、德克萨斯游骑兵队。

And they start arresting people.

他们开始逮捕人。

Some are on the streets, walking nonchalantly away as if they just happened to be here, they are not involved.

有些人在街上，若无其事地走开，就好像他们只是碰巧来到这里，他们不参与其中。

They have backpacks which the cops try to search.

他们有警察试图搜查的背包。

(SUBJECT) POLICE OFFICER 1: Take off the goddamn backpack.

（主题）警官 1：取下该死的背包。

If you move, you will be shot.

如果你移动，你就会被枪杀。

Do you understand me?

你了解我吗？

I am taking off your backpack.

我正在脱掉你的背包。

Everybody's on edge because an officer has been shot.

每个人都很紧张，因为一名警官被枪杀了。

The police officer, it turned out he was not badly hurt.

那个警察，看来他伤得并不重。

The bullet entered his shoulder, came out his back just below his neck.

子弹进入他的肩膀，从他脖子下面的背部射出。

He was released from the hospital later that night.

当晚晚些时候，他就出院了。

The guy who shot the cop and disappeared into the sunflower field, he hid there for a whole day.

那个开枪打死警察然后消失在向日葵地里的家伙，他在那里躲了一整天。

Eventually, some friends snuck him out.

最终，一些朋友把他偷了出来。

They were all caught.

他们都被抓住了。

What happened that night on the Fourth of July, one year ago, it all ended up in court.

一年前的七月四日那天晚上发生的事情，最终都上了法庭。

It became this major trial, where two very different stories were told.

这成为了这次重大审判，其中讲述了两个截然不同的故事。

The defendants say this was a protest gone wrong.

被告称这是一次错误的抗议。

Nobody was supposed to get shot.

没有人应该被枪杀。

In other words, this was like tons of other anti-ICE protests that had been happening all over the country, outside its facilities, where people gather and make noise to communicate with detainees.

换句话说，这就像全国各地在其设施外发生的大量其他反 ICE 抗议活动一样，人们聚集在一起并发出噪音与被拘留者交流。

But the FBI director, Kash Patel, had a different view.

但联邦调查局局长卡什·帕特尔却有不同的看法。

Here he is talking to Fox News host Larry Kudlow.

他正在与福克斯新闻主持人拉里·库德洛交谈。

This was a coordinated, planned attack by dozens of individuals to murder police officers.

这是数十人有组织、有计划的谋杀警察的袭击。

And Larry, a police officer was actually shot in the neck.

拉里，一名警察，实际上颈部中枪。

These guys came and staged a scene at a detention center using fireworks, then brought in long guns and rifles.

这些人来到看守所，用烟花表演了一场场面，然后带来了长枪和步枪。

They were kitted out in bulletproof vests and masks and opened fire at law enforcement.

他们穿着防弹背心和面具，向执法人员开枪。

Patel was confident who was behind this.

帕特尔确信这件事的幕后黑手是谁。

This is breaking news, Larry.

这是突发新闻，拉里。

Just hours ago, a grand jury indicted two members of an Antifa-affiliated cell.

就在几个小时前，大陪审团起诉了 Antifa 附属组织的两名成员。

20 individuals have been charged so far.

迄今为止，已有 20 人受到指控。

But the key here is, for the first time, we have charged these two individuals with material support to terrorism for their involvement in Antifa.

但这里的关键是，我们首次指控这两个人因参与 Antifa 活动而向恐怖主义提供物质支持。

And yes, Antifa exists.

是的，Antifa 存在。

It's a terrorist organization.

这是一个恐怖组织。

To Larry Kudlow, the Fox host interviewing him, that made a lot of sense.

对于采访他的福克斯主持人拉里·库德洛来说，这很有意义。

So let's just-- one more moment on that.

那么，让我们再花一点时间来讨论这个问题。

People on the left and the far left say that Antifa doesn't exist.

左派和极左派人士说 Antifa 不存在。

It's a state of mind, blah, blah, blah, blah.

这是一种心态，等等，等等，等等。

I mean, if they're not real, then how come two people were indicted?

我的意思是，如果他们不是真的，那么为什么有两个人被起诉？

They have to be real.

它们必须是真实的。

It's not a state of mind.

这不是一种心态。

Soon, 13 more people were charged with material support to terrorists.

很快，又有 13 人被指控向恐怖分子提供物质支持。

The indictment in this case saying this was the work of a North Texas Antifa cell, this came out a month after Charlie Kirk's assassination.

本案的起诉书称这是北德克萨斯州 Antifa 组织所为，是在查理·柯克 (Charlie Kirk) 遇刺一个月后发布的。

You may remember, in that shooting, a bullet casing was etched with the words, "Hey, fascist, catch."

你可能还记得，在那次枪击事件中，子弹壳上刻着这样的字样：“嘿，法西斯，接住。”

And a big part of the administration's response back then was to target Antifa as a domestic terror group in a national security memo, setting policy for the entire federal government.

当时政府的应对措施很大一部分是在一份国家安全备忘录中将 Antifa 定为国内恐怖组织，为整个联邦政府制定政策。

This Texas case with these defendants was a chance for the administration to lay out their best argument that Antifa is, in fact, a terror group operating here and now in the United States.

德克萨斯州的这起涉及这些被告的案件为政府提供了一个机会，可以提出最好的论据，即安提法实际上是一个在美国境内活动的恐怖组织。

And OK, just stepping back for a second.

好吧，退后一步。

Right now in America, whether you believe or not that Antifa even exists is tied to a whole other set of beliefs.

现在在美国，无论你是否相信 Antifa 的存在，都与另一套信仰联系在一起。

And just to generalize here for a second, blue America says Antifa does not exist as an actual, functioning organization.

在此概括一下，蓝色美国表示 Antifa 并不作为一个实际的、正常运作的组织存在。

Lots of reporting backs this up.

许多报告都支持这一点。

And going into this trial, the administration has not been able to point to any leaders or infrastructure or any of the normal things that a terror group has.

在这次审判中，政府无法指出恐怖组织拥有的任何领导人或基础设施或任何正常的东西。

Meanwhile, red America and right-wing media say, of course, Antifa exists.

与此同时，红色美国和右翼媒体表示，Antifa 当然存在。

Just look at all these activists around the country dressed in black, vandalizing stuff, wreaking havoc.

看看全国各地这些身着黑衣的激进分子，破坏物品，造成严重破坏。

How could that not be a thing?

这怎么可能不是一件事呢？

This trial in Texas, this was going to be the place where we were going to finally fight this one out, in public, and figure out, is Antifa real?

这次在德克萨斯州的审判，这将是我们最终要在公开场合决斗的地方，并弄清楚，Antifa 是真的吗？

So how did the government make the case?

那么政府是如何立案的呢？

Was it convincing?

有说服力吗？

The trial was not recorded, but that did not stop our producer, Zoe Chace, who's never one to shy away from a fool's errand.

审判没有被记录，但这并没有阻止我们的制片人佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace），她从不回避愚蠢的差事。

She was there for three weeks in the courtroom, writing down everything that happened in notebooks as the government tried to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

她在法庭上呆了三个星期，在笔记本上写下政府试图证明案件毫无疑问的所有情况。

Also, she got to know one of these supposed terrorists.

此外，她还认识了其中一名所谓的恐怖分子。

It was a hard-to-describe mix of being a longtime church lady married to a guy who loved Dungeons and Dragons.

作为一名长期的教堂女士嫁给了一个热爱龙与地下城的男人，这是一种难以描述的混合。

Her nom de guerre was Candied Dynamite.

她的化名是蜜饯炸药。

We heard the arguments, we heard the counterarguments, we heard the verdicts, all this hour.

我们听到了争论，我们听到了反驳，我们听到了判决，整整一个小时。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

OK, so from the start, this trial was pretty unusual.

好吧，从一开始，这次试验就很不寻常。

For starters, they had a hard time convening a jury.

首先，他们很难召集陪审团。

Lots of potential jurors either had strong opinions about ICE, or about protesters, or about Antifa.

许多潜在的陪审员要么对 ICE、抗议者或 Antifa 有强烈的看法。

And on day one, the judge, who's a bit of an intense character, called a mistrial because of a shirt that one of the defense attorneys was wearing.

第一天，性格有点激烈的法官因为其中一名辩护律师穿着一件衬衫而宣布审判无效。

So they had to start the entire thing over, this time without giving attorneys a chance to question potential jurors.

因此，他们必须重新开始整个事情，这一次不给律师质疑潜在陪审员的机会。

We did a little story about this on our show a couple months ago.

几个月前，我们在节目中做了一个关于这个的小故事。

And the judge also decided to move the trial upstairs into his courtroom, the courtroom he's accustomed to, a much smaller room.

法官还决定将审判移至楼上他所习惯的法庭，一个小得多的房间。

I'll let Zoe take things from here.

我会让佐伊从这里拿走东西。

Here's Zoe Chace.

这是佐伊·切斯。

The courtroom was packed-- nine defendants, each with, like, two lawyers-- so a lot of lawyers-- plus the prosecution, plus everyone else, reporters and family members and law students and interested observers, all jostling, a little fighting.

法庭上挤满了人——九名被告，每人大概有两名律师——这么多律师——再加上控方，加上其他人，记者、家属、法学院学生和感兴趣的观察员，所有人都在推搡，有点打斗。

The court sketch artist sat basically on my right knee on the first day with this huge easel spread out in front of us like a sail.

第一天，宫廷素描艺术家基本上坐在我的右膝上，这个巨大的画架像一张帆一样铺在我们面前。

Judge Pittman likes to open trial days with little homilies.

皮特曼法官喜欢以简短的说教来开启审判日。

He says, I urge you all to remember the saying from General Patton-- this will be our watchword for the trial.

他说，我敦促大家记住巴顿将军的话——这将是我们审判的口号。

"You cannot be disciplined in the great things and undisciplined in the small things." The judge wants things done a certain way.

“你不能在大事上遵守纪律，在小事上不遵守纪律。”法官希望事情以某种方式完成。

"Once you find your seat," he says, "stay in it."

“一旦找到座位，”他说，“就留在座位上。”

So we begin.

那么我们开始吧。

The prosecutors make their opening statement saying this was an Antifa attack.

检察官在开庭陈述中称这是一次 Antifa 袭击。

They are career government prosecutors in the Northern District of Texas.

他们是德克萨斯州北区的职业政府检察官。

They are matter-of-fact and colorless.

它们是实事求是、无色的。

And then the defense gets to make their opening arguments, and they're all showmen to one degree or another.

然后辩方开始进行开场陈词，他们在某种程度上都是表演者。

They make their case over and over, because nine defendants.

他们一遍又一遍地陈述自己的观点，因为有九名被告。

This was just a protest, they said, that went off the rails.

他们说，这只是一场偏离轨道的抗议。

The prosecution starts rolling out its evidence the next day, in pretty dramatic fashion.

第二天，检方开始以相当戏剧性的方式提供证据。

They wheel in a cart full of boxes, like an Amazon delivery.

他们推着一辆装满盒子的推车，就像亚马逊送货一样。

The boxes were tall and skinny.

盒子又高又瘦。

Looked like someone had ordered a bunch of curtains.

看起来有人订购了一堆窗帘。

I didn't know what was in them.

我不知道里面有什么。

They bring in a parade of law enforcement to walk through everything they found that night, each item entered into evidence.

他们派来执法人员巡查当晚发现的所有物品，每件物品都成为证据。

The officers walk through body camera footage and dash camera footage of the defendants being arrested and searched, and the cops finding a lot on them.

警察们浏览了被告被逮捕和搜查的随身摄像机镜头和行车记录仪镜头，警察在他们身上发现了很多东西。

[SIREN] Take this one minivan.

[警报] 乘坐这一辆小型货车。

They'd stopped this van not long after the shooting, the side windows down.

枪击事件发生后不久，他们就拦住了这辆货车，侧窗摇下。

(SUBJECT) POLICE OFFICER 2: Gun on the ground.

（对象）警察 2：枪在地上。

There's a pistol on the floor of the car.

车的地板上有一把手枪。

The driver, Megan Morris, has her hand on the steering wheel.

司机梅根·莫里斯（Megan Morris）把手放在方向盘上。

She looks miserable.

她看起来很痛苦。

She's dressed all in black, long gray hair and glasses.

她一身黑衣，灰色长发，戴着眼镜。

She also has a loaded mag in her pocket.

她的口袋里还有一本装满子弹的杂志。

(SUBJECT) POLICE OFFICER 2: Is there any other guns in the car?

（主题）警官 2：车里还有其他枪吗？

(SUBJECT) POLICE OFFICER 2: In the back seat?

（主题）警察 2：在后座？

(SUBJECT) POLICE OFFICER 2: What the fuck?

（对象）警官 2：搞什么鬼？

They're clearing the guns of ammo and piling them up on the hood of the car, one on top of the other.

他们正在清理枪里的弹药，然后把它们一个一个地堆在汽车引擎盖上。

There's body armor, loaded magazines, another AR-15 in the trunk.

行李箱里有防弹衣、装弹匣和另一支 AR-15。

(SUBJECT) POLICE OFFICER 2: Hey, just hang out right here.

（对象）警官 2：嘿，就在这里闲逛吧。

This is just like a straight, coordinated terror attack on the ICE detention facility.

这就像针对 ICE 拘留设施的直接、协调的恐怖袭击一样。

We got, like, six people-- trauma kits, plates, ARs, all sorts of stuff.

我们有六个人——创伤包、盘子、AR，各种各样的东西。

So just hang out.

所以就出去玩吧。

(SUBJECT) POLICE OFFICER 3: What the fuck?

（对象）警官 3：搞什么鬼？

(SUBJECT) POLICE OFFICER 2: Bro, what the fuck, dude.

（主题）警察 2：兄弟，搞什么鬼，伙计。

This is fucking crazy.

这太他妈疯狂了。

(SUBJECT) POLICE OFFICER 3: Bro, this is like a straight, coordinated terror attack on fucking Prairieland.

（主题）警察 3：兄弟，这就像针对他妈的草原地区的直接、协调的恐怖袭击。

I know, dude.

我知道，伙计。

This recording where the officers are like, bro, this is a terrorist attack, it was a point of contention in the trial.

这段录音中，警官们说，兄弟，这是一次恐怖袭击，这是审判中的一个争论点。

The defense tried to get it excluded, arguing the officers' comments could bias the jury.

辩方试图将其排除在外，认为警官的评论可能会使陪审团产生偏见。

That's just their random opinion that this was terrorism.

这只是他们认为这是恐怖主义的随意看法。

The judge was like, well, what they genuinely thought in the moment, seeing what they were seeing, is relevant.

法官说，好吧，他们当时真正的想法，看到他们所看到的，是相关的。

I'll allow it.

我会允许的。

So this is what the boxes were.

这就是盒子的样子。

Every time the officers had to introduce a new piece of evidence, they shook a gun out of a cardboard box.

每次警察必须提供新证据时，他们都会从纸板箱中摇出一把枪。

Guns started to pile up around the small courtroom-- semi-automatic rifles and pistols and glocks alongside body armor, trauma kits, and mags.

小法庭周围开始堆积枪支——半自动步枪、手枪、格洛克手枪、防弹衣、创伤包和弹匣。

In the top margin above my notes, I just have a star and the words "all these guns." It looks bad for the defense.

在我笔记上方的页边空白处，我只有一颗星星和“所有这些枪”的字样。看起来对防守很不利。

I also have notes on family members looking freaked out and upset.

我还记录了家庭成员看上去惊慌失措、心烦意乱的情况。

One of the sisters of a defendant keeps whispering, what's going on?

一名被告的姐妹一直在窃窃私语，这是怎么回事？

Like, why isn't the defense doing more to object to all this stuff?

比如，为什么辩方不采取更多措施来反对所有这些东西？

A few stickers make it into evidence too.

一些贴纸也可以成为证据。

"Make America not exist again," one of them says.

“让美国不再存在，”其中一位说道。

The defense gets up.

防守起来。

And the way one of the lawyers explains the guns is like, come on, this is Texas.

一位律师解释枪支的方式就像是，来吧，这是德克萨斯州。

We all have these.

我们都有这些。

These are all legal guns, and these people have guns for a reason.

这些都是合法的枪支，这些人拥有枪支是有原因的。

When out protesting, the lawyers argue, these guys encounter counter-protesters on the right who are armed.

律师们辩称，当这些人外出抗议时，会遇到持有武器的右翼反抗议者。

So they're armed.

所以他们全副武装。

They often bring them.

他们经常带来它们。

Most importantly, they point out, the guns in that van, they never left the van.

最重要的是，他们指出，那辆货车里的枪，他们从未离开过货车。

Now, they are forced to say this while standing in a courtroom sort of ridiculously filled with firearms and ammunition.

现在，他们被迫站在充满枪支和弹药的法庭上说这句话。

Even in Texas, this has got to be a little much.

即使在德克萨斯州，这也有点太多了。

It's like an armory.

它就像一个军械库。

One of the defense attorneys later said to me, yeah, would it have been better if they just had bells and whistles, if their intent was just to make noise?

一位辩护律师后来对我说，是的，如果他们只是想制造噪音，如果他们只是有花哨的东西会更好吗？

Would it have been better if they weren't dressed like they were storming the Bastille?

如果他们没有穿得像冲进巴士底狱时那样会更好吗？

Yes, it would have.

是的，会的。

This brings me to Act 2.

这让我进入第二幕。

I'm going to call Act 2 The Expert.

我将第二幕称为“专家”。

So one of the main ways the prosecution was going to try to show this was an Antifa terrorist cell was by calling an Antifa expert to the stand.

因此，检方试图证明这是一个 Antifa 恐怖分子组织的主要方法之一就是传唤 Antifa 专家出庭作证。

It was going to be a key moment in the trial.

这将是审判中的关键时刻。

I reached out to the Antifa expert to talk, and the prosecutors bringing him on, and neither got back to me.

我联系了 Antifa 专家，并联系了他，但检察官都没有回复我。

But some of the defense attorneys did.

但一些辩护律师却这么做了。

They love to talk about this case, especially, as it turns out, the guy who was going to lead the cross-examination of the Antifa expert, Patrick McLain.

他们喜欢谈论这个案件，特别是，事实证明，那个将领导对 Antifa 专家帕特里克·麦克莱恩进行盘问的人。

McLain and I meet up most days after court at the hotel bar.

麦克莱恩和我在法庭结束后的大部分时间里都会在酒店的酒吧见面。

The day he was going over his prep for the Antifa expert, we were at a nicer place, the Fort Worth Club downtown.

在他为 Antifa 专家做准备的那天，我们在一个更好的地方，市中心的沃斯堡俱乐部。

It's members-only.

仅限会员。

You have to ring a doorbell to get in.

你必须按门铃才能进去。

McLain's not a member.

麦克莱恩不是会员。

He just has a friend who is.

他只有一个朋友。

I find them in the back corner.

我在后面的角落里找到了它们。

I'm going to keep picking.

我要继续选。

But no, I don't [?

但不，我不[?

eat meat.

吃肉。

?] Well, you know what?

？] 嗯，你知道吗？

I'll have another Guinness.

我还要再来一杯吉尼斯黑啤酒。

Another Guinness?

又一个吉尼斯世界纪录？

Zoe Chace I'll have another Guinness, he says.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）：“我还要再来一杯吉尼斯黑啤酒”，他说。

Patrick McLain is as Irish, Chicagoan-looking as his name.

帕特里克·麦克莱恩（Patrick McLain）就像他的名字一样，是爱尔兰人、芝加哥人。

Big and burly, 67 years old, he looks like the Marine that he is.

他身材高大、魁梧，今年 67 岁，看上去就像一名海军陆战队员。

His text messages are set to auto sign-off "Semper fi, Patrick." He's a former Republican, a devout Catholic.

他的短信设置为自动结束语“Semper fi，Patrick”。他是一名前共和党人，一名虔诚的天主教徒。

He has 10 kids.

他有 10 个孩子。

He's a regular at the March for Life every year.

他是每年生命游行的常客。

Tonight, he's also brought along his own terrorism expert, someone he plans to bring as a witness, a woman named Anne Speckhard.

今晚，他还带来了自己的恐怖主义专家，他计划带来一位名叫安妮·斯佩克哈德的女士作为证人。

He and Speckhard are going to hammer out the best way to discredit the government's Antifa guy.

他和斯佩克哈德将找出最好的方法来抹黑政府的 Antifa 成员。

Anne Speckhard stands out here a bit.

安妮·斯佩克哈德在这里显得有些突出。

She's definitely the only person in the Fort Worth Club with a flowery hair clip, almost counterculture-looking.

她绝对是沃斯堡俱乐部里唯一一个戴着华丽发夹的人，看起来几乎是反文化的。

She's a terrorism scholar.

她是一名恐怖主义学者。

She studied ISIS and al-Qaeda and other groups.

她研究了伊斯兰国、基地组织和其他组织。

She's worked with the UN and NATO and other international organizations.

她曾与联合国、北约和其他国际组织合作。

So are you going to take the stand, or are you just helping him prep for--

那么你是要出庭作证，还是只是帮助他准备——

OK.

好的。

Patrick McLain Yeah, there's a 95% chance she'll take the stand.

帕特里克·麦克莱恩：是的，她有 95% 的机会出庭作证。

Only reason she wouldn't take the stand is if he was just totally so horrible that-- yeah, we wouldn't need you there.

她不会出庭作证的唯一原因是，如果他真的太可怕了——是的，我们不需要你在那里。

If the government's Antifa expert is so terrible that he needs no rebuttal, there'll be no need to take the stand.

如果政府的Antifa专家可怕到不需要反驳，那就没有必要出庭作证。

They don't expect that.

他们不希望这样。

Just while we wait for our drinks here, I'll explain who the government Antifa expert is.

当我们在这里等待饮料时，我将向您解释谁是政府的 Antifa 专家。

His name is Kyle Shideler, bald and quite literally egg-headed.

他的名字叫凯尔·希德勒（Kyle Shideler），秃顶，简直就是蛋头。

He sits with the prosecution every day.

他每天都与检方坐在一起。

He works for the Center for Security Policy, a think tank in DC that, truthfully, is most known for advocating conspiracy theories about Muslims.

他在华盛顿智库安全政策中心工作，说实话，该中心以倡导有关穆斯林的阴谋论而闻名。

Or, I guess, if you believe those theories, then as brave truth-tellers.

或者，我想，如果你相信这些理论，那么你就是勇敢的说真话的人。

Shideler has advocated for the government to treat Antifa as a terrorist group, and in the last six years, Shideler has trained cops all over the country in what he calls "the Antifa threat." He's also testified before Congress.

希德勒主张政府将 Antifa 视为恐怖组织，在过去六年中，希德勒对全国各地的警察进行了他所说的“Antifa 威胁”培训。他还在国会作证。

So the question is, how are they going to deal with this guy when he takes the stand?

那么问题来了，当这个人出庭后，他们将如何应对呢？

Anne Speckhard has a bunch of questions they can ask him on the stand, which he's written out.

安妮·斯佩克哈德 (Anne Speckhard) 有很多问题可以在证人席上问他，他已经写好了。

Like, how does one join Antifa?

比如，如何加入 Antifa？

Is there a membership list?

有会员名单吗？

Are there dues?

有会费吗？

Is there a leadership structure?

有领导架构吗？

An oath?

誓言？

The basic stuff terrorist groups have.

恐怖组织拥有的基本东西。

If you joined ISIS, back in the time of when they had their caliphate, and even now, you hold your hand up and you give your baah, your pledge of allegiance, to whoever the caliph is.

如果你加入了伊斯兰国，早在他们拥有哈里发的时候，即使是现在，你也会举起手，向任何哈里发宣誓效忠。

If you're joining a group, she says, you probably know you're joining a group.

她说，如果你要加入一个团体，你可能知道你正在加入一个团体。

There's no group here.

这里没有团体。

Can you show me the Antifa groups?

你能带我看看 Antifa 团体吗？

I mean, if he asked me about Hamas, I can tell him how you get into Hamas, what you do when you're in Hamas, where the Hamas website is, that actually says Hamas.

我的意思是，如果他问我有关哈马斯的情况，我可以告诉他你是如何加入哈马斯的，当你在哈马斯时你会做什么，哈马斯的网站在哪里，实际上上面写的是哈马斯。

But with Antifa, he just talks amorphously, like these autonomous groups.

但对于 Antifa，他只是漫无目的地说话，就像这些自治团体一样。

But there's all kinds of autonomous groups.

但有各种各样的自治团体。

The US government disagrees, of course, that Antifa does not meet the definition of a terrorist group.

当然，美国政府不同意Antifa不符合恐怖组织的定义。

Patrick McLain announces he's going to mulch on all this and go get some shuteye.

帕特里克·麦克莱恩宣布他将覆盖这一切并去休息一下。

He says he's been sleeping in his Dallas office lately.

他说他最近一直在达拉斯的办公室里睡觉。

As though they're building the hype, the government saves their Antifa expert for the last few days of trial.

就好像他们在大肆宣传一样，政府在最后几天的审判中保留了他们的 Antifa 专家。

Everyone watching has been waiting for him to take the stand.

所有观看的人都在等待他上台。

Finally, Kyle Shideler takes his place in the witness box.

最后，凯尔·希德勒 (Kyle Shideler) 出现在证人席上。

So what is Antifa, the prosecutor asks?

检察官问道，Antifa 是什么？

Shideler really begins at the beginning.

希德勒确实从头开始。

The word "Anti-fa" is actually a contraction of sorts, he says, an abbreviated contraction, which is a common German phenomenon.

他说，“Anti-fa”这个词实际上是某种缩写，是一种缩写，这是德国的一种常见现象。

It stands for "anti-fascist action," and it stems from the Weimar Republic in Germany.

它代表“反法西斯行动”，源于德国魏玛共和国。

This goes on for quite a while.

这种情况持续了相当长一段时间。

In the middle of a section about the history of fighting with the police over the autonomous squats of West Germany, the judge tries to hurry him along.

在讲述西德自治占屋问题上与警察斗争的历史的部分中，法官试图催促他。

"No offense to the professor," he says, "but this isn't the place for a lecture." Shideler, who's not a professor, seems incapable of following the judge's instruction not to lecture.

“无意冒犯教授，”他说，“但这不是演讲的地方。”施德勒不是教授，他似乎无法遵守法官不讲课的指示。

I fill a notebook with Antifa's post-war rise, basically.

我基本上在笔记本上写满了 Antifa 战后的崛起。

Finally, we get into the present day and these defendants.

最后，我们进入当今时代和这些被告。

Shideler ticks through the classic hallmarks that show this group is what he calls Antifa.

希德勒列举了一些经典标志，表明这个组织就是他所说的 Antifa。

He talks about how, before that night, everyone communicated over Signal, an example of operational security, OPSEC.

他谈到了那天晚上之前，每个人如何通过 Signal 进行通信，这是操作安全的一个例子，即 OPSEC。

And that night, they all went out dressed in black-- another common tactic of Antifa, he says, called black bloc, originally known as der schwarze bloc, he says.

那天晚上，他们都穿着黑衣出去——他说，这是 Antifa 的另一种常见策略，称为“black bloc”，最初被称为“der schwarze bloc”。

The idea is, if everyone dresses in black, the police can't tell who's who or who did what.

这个想法是，如果每个人都穿黑色衣服，警察就无法分辨谁是谁或谁做了什么。

After an operation, the Antifa tactic is to take off the black clothing and blend back in, he says.

他说，手术后，Antifa 的策略是脱掉黑色衣服并重新融入其中。

The prosecutor mentions that one defendant had tied his long-sleeved black shirt around his waist when he was arrested a few miles away.

检察官提到，一名被告在几英里外被捕时，将长袖黑色衬衫系在腰间。

"And that's an example of [?

“这是[？的一个例子。

de-blocing, ?] if you will?" he asks.

去块化，？]如果你愿意的话？”他问道。

"Yes," says Shideler.

“是的，”希德勒说。

"That's what I would expect to see."

“这就是我期望看到的。”

Then there's the book club.

然后是读书俱乐部。

Shideler spends some time on this book club that some of the defendants were in, the Emma Goldman book club.

希德勒花了一些时间参加一些被告所在的读书俱乐部，即艾玛·戈德曼读书俱乐部。

Emma Goldman was a famous anarchist from the early 1900s.

艾玛·戈德曼 (Emma Goldman) 是 1900 年代初著名的无政府主义者。

He says this is sort of an Antifa front, the above ground part of the organization.

他说，这有点像 Antifa 阵线，是该组织的地上部分。

Shideler says, anytime you're a clandestine organization, that is, an organization that cannot recruit openly, like maybe they don't admit they exist, you have to find a way to recruit other people with which you have a shared ideology.

希德勒说，只要你是一个秘密组织，也就是说，一个不能公开招募的组织，比如他们可能不承认自己的存在，你就必须找到一种方法来招募与你有共同意识形态的其他人。

Shideler lists off some of these zines the book club was reading, classics of an anarchist library, like "I Don't Bash Back, I Shoot First" and "Destroying White Nationalism." And what about these red and black flags found rolled up in one of the garages, the prosecutor asks?

希德勒列出了读书俱乐部正在阅读的一些杂志，无政府主义图书馆的经典之作，比如《我不反击，我先开枪》和《摧毁白人民族主义》。检察官问道，在一个车库里发现的这些卷起的红黑旗又如何呢？

When they introduced the flags as evidence, an FBI agent stood up with the flags to demonstrate how they'd be hung if they'd been hung, which they weren't.

当他们提出这些旗帜作为证据时，一名联邦调查局特工拿着这些旗帜站起来，展示如果它们被悬挂的话，它们会被如何悬挂，但事实并非如此。

He waved them wildly at the jury like it was the finish line at NASCAR.

他向陪审团疯狂地挥舞着它们，就像这是纳斯卡的终点线。

Shideler explains, yes, that's an Antifa flag.

希德勒解释说，是的，那是一面 Antifa 旗帜。

The red and black is iconography related to the Spanish Civil War, when the anarchists were engaged in direct action against the fascists.

红色和黑色是与西班牙内战有关的图像，当时无政府主义者对法西斯采取了直接行动。

Finally, it's Patrick McLain's moment.

最后，是帕特里克·麦克莱恩的时刻。

Time for cross-examination.

交叉询问的时间到了。

McLain approaches, asks some questions about Shideler's credentials for this, pointing out he's never held a position at a college or a university.

麦克莱恩走近，询问了一些有关希德勒在这方面的资历的问题，并指出他从未在学院或大学担任过职务。

He's never published a peer-reviewed paper.

他从未发表过同行评审的论文。

Then he gets to this.

然后他就谈到了这一点。

McLain-- "There is no national leadership of Antifa, is there?"

麦克莱恩——“Antifa 没有国家领导层，不是吗？”

Shideler-- "It would be inconsistent with their ideology." "Is that a no?" "It would be inconsistent with their ideology, so they do not, no." "OK.

Shideler——“这与他们的意识形态不一致。” “这就是‘不’吗？” “这与他们的意识形态不一致，所以他们不这样做，不。” “好的。

They don't have membership rolls." "It would be inconsistent with their ideology, so no." "Just for the sake of efficiency, if there is a yes or no answer, could you lead with that?" "Sure." "OK.

他们没有会员名册。” “这与他们的意识形态不一致，所以不。” “只是为了效率，如果有是或否的答案，你能带头吗？” “当然。” “好的。

Thank you.

谢谢你。

And no dues or hierarchy in anything that you would call Antifa, right?" "No, they're opposed to it."

在你所谓的 Antifa 中，没有任何会费或等级制度，对吧？” “不，他们反对。”

If I were to summarize how Shideler's seeing this, I think he's saying Antifa is not a typical terrorist organization, with leaders or membership lists or headquarters, because it's anarchist.

如果我要总结希德勒的看法，我想他是说 Antifa 不是一个典型的恐怖组织，没有领导人、成员名单或总部，因为它是无政府主义的。

They don't like organizations.

他们不喜欢组织。

They operate as affinity groups.

他们作为亲和团体运作。

McLain points out, however, that none of the defendants ever refer to themselves as Antifa in their own private Signal chats.

然而，麦克莱恩指出，没有一个被告在自己的私人 Signal 聊天中称自己为 Antifa。

Shideler says they don't think about groups and organizations.

希德勒说他们不考虑团体和组织。

That's what's counter to their ideology.

这与他们的意识形态背道而驰。

From McLain's point of view, that's crazy, Shideler saying the fact that they don't say they're Antifa is the proof that they're Antifa.

从麦克莱恩的角度来看，这太疯狂了，希德勒说他们不说自己是 Antifa 的事实就证明了他们是 Antifa 的。

And if there really was a plan to shoot police officers, as the government says, a plan to destroy government property with fireworks, if this plan really existed, why isn't that in the Signal chats?

如果真的有一个射杀警察的计划，正如政府所说，一个用烟花摧毁政府财产的计划，如果这个计划真的存在，为什么信号聊天中没有这个计划？

"Did anybody talk about harming another person?" McLain asks.

“有人谈论过伤害他人吗？”麦克莱恩问道。

Shideler says, "I would expect the discussions of that type to take place person to person and not necessarily appear in an encrypted chat."

希德勒说：“我希望这种类型的讨论能够面对面地进行，而不一定出现在加密的聊天中。”

Then another defense attorney comes up and circles back to some of the other zines and stickers that have come up, like "Be gay, do crime" and "ACAB," All Cops Are Bastards.

然后另一位辩护律师出现了，并回到了其他一些出现的杂志和贴纸，比如“同性恋，犯罪”和“ACAB”，所有警察都是混蛋。

Typical Antifa, Shideler says.

希德勒说，这是典型的 Antifa。

There was also a zine on horticulture, that attorney points out.

该律师指出，还有一本关于园艺的杂志。

"Foraging and horticulture, yes," says Shideler.

“觅食和园艺，是的，”希德勒说。

"So what, gardening is part of the Antifa platform?" "Not as such," Shideler says, "but it's consistent with a community defense approach."

“那又怎样，园艺是 Antifa 平台的一部分？” “事实并非如此，”希德勒说，“但这符合社区防御方法。”

The judge speaks up.

法官发声。

He sounds mad again.

他听起来又生气了。

"Just because I own a copy of Mein Kampf doesn't make me a fascist or a Nazi, does it?" "Not unless it's consistent with your other behavior," Shideler says.

“仅仅因为我拥有一本《我的奋斗》，并不意味着我就是法西斯主义者或纳粹分子，不是吗？” “除非它与你的其他行为一致，否则不会，”希德勒说。

"What if I owned a copy of Das Kapital?

“如果我拥有一本《资本论》怎么办？

Does that make me a Communist?" "Not unless it's consistent with your other behavior." "What about a copy of The Vantage Point by Lyndon Johnson?

这能让我成为一名共产党员吗？” “除非它与你的其他行为一致，否则不会。” “林登·约翰逊的《制高点》怎么样？

Does that make me a Democrat?" "No, sir.

这能让我成为一名民主党人吗？” “不，先生。

Not unless it's consistent with your other behavior." "If I own Antifa literature, that doesn't make me an anti-fascist necessarily, does it?" "I hope not, sir.

除非它与你的其他行为一致，否则不会。” “如果我拥有 Antifa 文学作品，并不一定会让我成为反法西斯主义者，不是吗？” “我希望不会，先生。

I have quite a bit of it myself."

我自己也有不少。”

The judge's impatience made Shideler's testimony play sort of ridiculous in the room, sometimes, I thought.

我想，有时候，法官的不耐烦让席德勒的证词在房间里显得有些可笑。

Every so often, I look at the jury.

我时常会看着陪审团。

It's a pretty mixed group, old and young, white and Hispanic, men and women, mostly expressionless, sometimes sleepy.

这是一个相当混杂的群体，有老人和年轻人，有白人和西班牙裔，有男人和女人，大多数人面无表情，有时昏昏欲睡。

One day, one of them came in a Darth Vader sweatshirt.

有一天，其中一人穿着达斯维德运动衫进来。

Why?

为什么？

Who knows.

谁知道呢。

I never can read them.

我永远读不懂它们。

Outside this courtroom, the Trump administration is making all sorts of big claims about Antifa.

在法庭外，特朗普政府正在对 Antifa 提出各种重大指控。

The national security memo that instructs government agencies to treat Antifa as a domestic terror group, a major national security priority, claims Antifa is this big, organized network with institutional funders.

国家安全备忘录指示政府机构将 Antifa 视为国内恐怖组织，这是国家安全的主要优先事项，并声称 Antifa 是一个由机构资助者组成的大型、有组织的网络。

"This violence," it says, "does not emerge organically." Presidential aide Stephen Miller has said, "It is structured, it is sophisticated, it is well-funded, it is well-planned." So it's fascinating to see that once they got to court, they dropped all that.

“这种暴力，”它说，“并不是自然出现的。”总统助理斯蒂芬·米勒表示：“它结构严密、复杂、资金充足、计划周密。”因此，令人着迷的是，一旦他们上了法庭，他们就放弃了这一切。

Shideler and the government never tried to present any evidence showing some kind of national coordination or structure or planning or funding.

希德勒和政府从未试图提供任何证据来证明某种国家协调、结构、规划或资金。

Shideler did point to a crowdfunding Linktree at one point.

Shideler 确实曾经提到过 Linktree 的众筹项目。

Instead, what the government argues is that the defendants all do things that come from a sort of anarchist playbook-- wearing dark clothes, reading anarchist literature.

相反，政府认为被告所做的事情都来自某种无政府主义剧本——穿着深色衣服，阅读无政府主义文学。

And that's what makes them Antifa.

这就是他们成为 Antifa 的原因。

The people within the group don't have to join a group, or say they're in a group, or maybe even know that they're in a group at all, to be in Antifa.

团体内的人不必加入某个团体，或者说他们在一个团体中，甚至可能根本不知道他们在一个团体中，就可以加入 Antifa。

I walked outside.

我走到外面。

It was a beautiful Texas spring day and people are in a good mood.

这是德克萨斯州一个美丽的春日，人们心情很好。

Across from the courthouse, there's a little demonstration in support of the defendants every day, mostly sympathetic activists and friends.

法院对面每天都会举行一些支持被告的示威活动，其中大部分是同情的活动人士和朋友。

A hand-painted banner that says "Show trial" is draped across the trees, and there are little tables of zines and free vegan food.

树上挂着写着“审判秀”的手绘横幅，还有小桌子上的杂志和免费的素食食品。

When court's over, the families spill across the street to talk about what happened inside.

法庭结束后，家人聚集到街对面，谈论法庭内发生的事情。

Sometimes they feel like talking to us.

有时他们想和我们说话。

Sometimes they don't.

有时他们不这样做。

Today, Antifa expert day, they feel great.

今天，Antifa 专家日，他们感觉很棒。

Some lawyers also felt great.

一些律师也感觉很棒。

They'd actually been on a high for a few days now.

事实上，他们已经有几天处于高潮了。

We have half the government's case in, and we've been basically kicking their ass.

我们已经处理了政府一半的案件，而且我们基本上一直在踢他们的屁股。

This is Brian Bouffard.

这是布莱恩·布法德。

He's co-counsel to Patrick McLain on this case.

他是帕特里克·麦克莱恩此案的联席律师。

You guys are pretty confident right now.

你们现在很有信心。

I can't even say we're confident-- because nobody knows what a jury's going to do.

我什至不能说我们有信心——因为没有人知道陪审团会做什么。

But my feeling is, the government has made a lot of mistakes.

但我的感觉是，政府犯了很多错误。

Their witnesses have made a lot of mistakes.

他们的证人犯了很多错误。

And the way that that has come out, I think, is pretty favorable.

我认为，结果是相当有利的。

Brian Bouffard is a former Navy Jag.

布莱恩·布法德 (Brian Bouffard) 是前海军美洲虎队员。

He defended someone accused of terrorism before, a prisoner at Guantanamo who'd been tortured for years at CIA black sites.

他之前曾为一名被指控犯有恐怖主义罪的人辩护，这名囚犯是关塔那摩监狱的一名囚犯，多年来一直在中央情报局黑点遭受酷刑。

He is deeply suspicious of the government, and this trial really bothers him.

他对政府深感怀疑，这次审判确实让他很困扰。

It's a prime example to him of the DOJ becoming a tool for punishing people who disagree with the President.

对他来说，这是司法部成为惩罚与总统意见不同的人的工具的一个典型例子。

I've got a lot tied up in this for me.

对我来说，这件事对我来说有很多束缚。

I find the corruption of the justice system to be just horribly psychologically painful to see going on.

我发现司法系统的腐败现象在心理上令人极其痛苦。

Mhm.

嗯。

That you're so freaked out by what's happening to the Justice Department.

你对司法部发生的事情感到非常害怕。

Freaked out is not the word.

吓坏了不是这个词。

Furious is the word.

愤怒这个词。

What is going on right now with the Justice Department is unspeakable, in my view.

在我看来，司法部现在发生的事情是难以形容的。

That's why he wants to win this case so badly.

这就是为什么他如此渴望打赢这场官司。

Now, the Antifa expert, that part went well, he thought, for his side-- so well, in fact, that they end up not calling up their own expert at all.

现在，Antifa 专家，他想，这部分对他这边来说进展顺利——事实上，进展顺利，以至于他们最终根本没有打电话给自己的专家。

They never put their terrorism scholar, Anne Speckhard, from the bar, on the stand.

他们从未将律师事务所的恐怖主义学者安妮·斯佩克哈德 (Anne Speckhard) 送上证人席。

But the government had another, maybe more powerful argument for the existence of Antifa, which I'll tell you about when we come back.

但政府对于 Antifa 的存在还有另一个可能更有力的论据，当我们回来时我会告诉你。

Zoe Chace.

佐伊·查斯。

Coming up after the break, we hear from an alleged member of this alleged terror cell, and she seems very different from what the government says she is.

休息后，我们听到了这个所谓的恐怖组织的一名所谓成员的来信，她似乎与政府所说的非常不同。

That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台稍后将继续我们的节目。

This American Life.

这美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, The Test Case.

今天的节目，测试用例。

We're devoting the whole hour to this first of its kind trial of people that the government says are part of an Antifa cell on charges that could send them to prison for decades.

我们用一小时的时间来进行首次此类审判，政府称这些人属于安提法组织的成员，他们的指控可能会让他们入狱数十年。

We've arrived at Act 3 of our show.

我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。

Act 3, The Cooperator.

第三幕，合作者。

OK, so originally, 16 people were charged in this case.

好吧，原来这个案子有16人被起诉。

Nine of them went on trial.

其中九人接受审判。

And the other seven, they pled guilty to material support to terrorists.

另外七人承认向恐怖分子提供物质支持。

They admitted this.

他们承认了这一点。

In the documents that are part of their plea agreements, some of them signed statements agreeing that what happened outside the detention center was an act of terrorism carried out by an Antifa cell and the people involved that night adhered to an anarchist Antifa ideology.

在认罪协议的文件中，他们中的一些人签署了声明，同意拘留中心外发生的事情是安提法组织实施的恐怖主义行为，当晚涉案人员坚持无政府主义安提法意识形态。

That, of course, seemed good for the government's case.

当然，这对政府来说似乎是件好事。

Also, five of them appeared in court to testify for the prosecution.

此外，其中五人出庭为检方作证。

One of the five in particular stood out to Zoe.

这五个人中的一个对佐伊来说尤其突出。

This was a woman named Lynette Sharp.

这是一个名叫莱内特·夏普的女人。

She was older than a lot of the others, 57 years old.

她比其他很多人都年长，57岁。

And just to say what her involvement was in all this, she was not at the detention center that night.

顺便说一句，她参与了这一切，那天晚上她并不在看守所。

She had planned to go, but then she couldn't make it.

她原本打算去，但后来没能成行。

But remember how the guy who shot the cop hid in a sunflower field the whole night and then eventually got snuck out by a couple friends?

但还记得枪杀警察的人整夜躲在向日葵地里，最后被几个朋友偷偷溜出来吗？

That was Lynette.

那是莱内特。

She fished him out of the field and then hid him from the cops.

她把他从田里捞出来，然后把他藏起来，不让警察发现。

The authorities tracked her down a few days later, arrested her.

几天后，当局找到了她，并将她逮捕。

She's been locked up since.

从那以后她就被关起来了。

And she agreed to talk to Zoe.

她同意与佐伊交谈。

Again, here's Zoe Chace.

佐伊·切斯再次报道。

When the cooperators appeared in court, they were brought in prison stripes.

当合作者出庭时，他们被带上了监狱条纹。

They mostly seemed to be in some degree of anguish over what they were doing, testifying against their friends.

他们大多似乎对自己所做的事情感到某种程度的痛苦，指证他们的朋友。

It was hard to sit through.

很难坐下来。

There was something about Lynette, though.

不过，莱内特身上有一些东西。

She was chatty.

她很健谈。

It seemed like she couldn't help it, kind of.

看起来她似乎无法控制，有点。

She knew so much about these people's lives.

她对这些人的生活了解很多。

At one point, she had said that three of the defendants were in a throuple-- not a word I expected to hear in the Northern District of Texas, I guess.

有一次，她曾说过三名被告是三人一组——我想我没想到会在德克萨斯州北区听到这个词。

But then also, when the prosecutor had her ID the defendants, one by one, she broke down in tears.

但当检察官一一拿出被告的身份证时，她泪流满面。

They were lined up right in front of her.

他们就在她面前一字排开。

"I love them," she said to the prosecutor.

“我爱他们，”她对检察官说。

So I went to talk to her.

于是我就去跟她说话。

I wanted to know what this group might have looked like on the inside, and I wanted to know how she'd gotten to this point in her life, pleading guilty to a terrorism charge.

我想知道这个组织的内部是什么样子，我想知道她是如何走到这一步的，承认恐怖主义指控。

I drove out there with her lawyer, Erin.

我和她的律师艾琳一起开车去了那里。

You go through a bunch of nothing, and then there's the jail-- long, low buildings, barbed wire around, a couple Texas flags flying.

你什么都没有经历过，然后就是监狱——长长的、低矮的建筑，周围有铁丝网，几面德克萨斯州的旗帜飘扬。

And Erin takes me inside.

艾琳带我进去。

I am here for an attorney visit to see Ms. Lynette Sharp, and she's with me.

我来这里是为了见见 Lynette Sharp 女士，她也和我在一起。

They lead us into a small room.

他们把我们领进一个小房间。

There's a big, clear plastic divider cutting it down the middle.

中间有一个又大又透明的塑料隔板。

A guard opens the door on the other side of the divider and brings Lynette in.

一名警卫打开分隔线另一侧的门，将莱内特带了进来。

She's in the orange and white prison stripes.

她穿着橙色和白色的监狱条纹。

There was a small speaker stuck into the plastic that we talked through.

有一个小扬声器粘在我们交谈的塑料中。

I want to ask how you are.

我想问你怎么样。

Lynette Sharp You know, I can't complain.

Lynette Sharp 你知道，我不能抱怨。

If I did, who would listen?

如果我这样做，谁会听？

I had my mic pointed at the wrong part of the speaker.

我的麦克风指向了扬声器的错误位置。

It'll get better later.

以后会好起来的。

Sorry about that.

对此感到抱歉。

When Lynette was arrested, she had spiky pink hair.

当莱内特被捕时，她有一头尖尖的粉红色头发。

Now it's a gray ponytail.

现在是灰色马尾辫。

She has glasses and hearing aids.

她戴着眼镜和助听器。

I have to say, I talk to people a lot about their politics for my job.

我不得不说，为了我的工作，我经常与人们谈论他们的政治观点。

Why do you believe the things you do?

你为什么相信你所做的事情？

It's never simple.

这从来都不简单。

It's built over their lifetime.

它是在他们的一生中建立的。

There's not one thing that leads you to it.

没有一件事可以引导你这样做。

I feel like I need to do something a little unusual here, which is tell you Lynette's story from the beginning.

我觉得我需要在这里做一些不寻常的事情，那就是从头开始告诉你Lynette的故事。

So I want to start this part of the story here, alleged Antifa cell terrorist at age five.

所以我想从这里开始故事的这一部分，五岁的安提法组织恐怖分子。

Lynette grew up outside Fort Worth in the early '70s.

Lynette 在 70 年代初在沃斯堡郊外长大。

She was a tomboy, played dirt clod wars in the streets.

她是个假小子，在街上打架。

She rode bikes and the neighbor's horses.

她骑自行车和邻居的马。

She liked being out of the house because the situation in the house wasn't good.

她喜欢出门在外，因为家里的情况不好。

Her parents fought a lot, drank a lot.

她的父母经常吵架，喝很多酒。

They even tried to kill each other a couple of times.

他们甚至多次试图杀死对方。

Her mom shot her dad-- twice.

她妈妈向她爸爸开枪——两次。

He survived.

他活了下来。

She tried to poison him several times, too.

她也曾多次试图毒害他。

My parents were fighters.

我的父母都是战士。

And that's where I get my fighting spirit, I think.

我想这就是我获得战斗精神的地方。

How did she try to poison him?

她是如何试图毒害他的？

And how did you even know that happened?

你怎么知道发生了这种事？

My mother never hid anything from us.

我母亲从来没有向我们隐瞒任何事情。

She used Miracle-Gro and put it in his beer.

她使用 Miracle-Gro 并将其放入他的啤酒中。

It didn't work.

它不起作用。

And I don't remember what she used the other time.

我不记得她上次用了什么。

Lynette didn't want to stick around.

莱内特不想留下来。

She got together with this guy and moved out of state, and they had a kid together.

她和这个家伙在一起并搬出了州，他们有了一个孩子。

But it was a similar relationship to her mom and dad's, as much as she thought she was nothing like them, she was feeling sort of "Miracle-Gro in his beer" herself.

但这与她父母的关系很相似，尽管她认为自己与他们完全不同，但她自己也感觉有点“啤酒中的奇迹”。

It scared her.

这让她害怕。

She moved back with her parents, moved out again, and eventually left that guy.

她和父母一起搬回来，又搬出去，最终离开了那个男人。

At this point, she gets really into church.

至此，她真正融入了教会。

Something about it really appealed to her, being part of a group, maybe because, she says, she just never felt a part of her family at all.

她说，作为一个团体的一员，这件事确实吸引了她，也许是因为她从来没有感觉到自己是家庭的一部分。

And Lynette is a people person.

Lynette 是一个善于交际的人。

This is the first big group that she dives into-- the church.

这是她进入的第一个大群体——教会。

I went to church constantly.

我经常去教堂。

I found a church and was there every time the doors were open and just really immersed myself in that.

我找到了一座教堂，每次门打开的时候我都在那里，我真的沉浸其中。

It was Pentecostal, but women could wear pants, which she liked.

当时是五旬节，但女性可以穿裤子，她喜欢这一点。

Things calmed.

事情平静了。

She met another guy, a clean, non-abusive, nice guy named Marshall.

她遇到了另一个人，一个干净、不辱骂、好人，名叫马歇尔。

Nerdy-- played Dungeons and Dragons and video games.

书呆子——玩龙与地下城和电子游戏。

They got married, and at first, she says it was great.

他们结婚了，一开始，她说这很棒。

But slowly, even though this was a really different relationship from her first one, it also began to feel like a trap to Lynette.

但慢慢地，尽管这是一段与她第一次的关系非常不同的关系，但对琳内特来说，它也开始感觉像是一个陷阱。

She already had one kid, then her husband's kids came to live with them and she got pregnant.

她已经有了一个孩子，后来她丈夫的孩子们来和他们住在一起，她就怀孕了。

And right then, her husband kind of disappeared into his computer.

就在那时，她的丈夫消失在他的电脑里。

And that's when it got to be too much.

那时就太多了。

I started really having a hard time with everything.

我开始对一切事情都感到很困难。

She called the pastor's wife for advice.

她打电话给牧师的妻子寻求建议。

She did tell me-- when I told her what was going on, she said, why are you doing all of this?

她确实告诉了我——当我告诉她发生了什么事时，她说，你为什么要做这一切？

Because I was doing everything.

因为我正在做一切。

And she said, why aren't they doing this and that?

她说，他们为什么不做这个做那个呢？

They can do their own laundry.

他们可以自己洗衣服。

They can make their own lunches.

他们可以自己做午餐。

And I'm like, I just thought that's what I was supposed to be doing.

我想，我只是觉得这就是我应该做的。

And she said, no.

她说，不。

Like, that's what the housewife does, kind of thing.

就像，这就是家庭主妇所做的事情。

Yes.

是的。

And so she kind of gave me permission to say, hey, I'm not doing this anymore.

所以她允许我说，嘿，我不再这样做了。

After that, she says, they started living separate lives side by side.

她说，此后，他们开始并肩过着各自的生活。

There are many more dramatic chapters of Lynette's life lived in these bright, intense strokes.

在这些明亮、强烈的笔触中，莱内特的人生还有许多更戏剧性的篇章。

Her daughter gets pregnant at 16.

她的女儿16岁时怀孕了。

She figures out that one of her stepkids is abusing her daughters.

她发现她的一个继子正在虐待她的女儿。

Eventually, her stepson is arrested.

最终，她的继子被捕。

She ends up taking in a kid who's severely autistic and raising them.

她最终收养了一个患有严重自闭症的孩子并抚养他们。

And Lynette and her husband come together to deal with these crises and then grow apart again.

莱内特和她的丈夫齐心协力应对这些危机，然后又分道扬镳。

They get close for a while when they join a new group.

当他们加入一个新团体时，他们会暂时变得亲密。

Of all things, it's a motorcycle club.

最重要的是，它是一个摩托车俱乐部。

This is another turning point.

这是另一个转折点。

Lynette gets really into the motorcycle club.

莱内特真正融入了摩托车俱乐部。

It was a motorcycle club of Marines.

这是海军陆战队的一个摩托车俱乐部。

Her husband served in the Marines.

她的丈夫在海军陆战队服役。

And he got really into it, too.

他也真正投入其中。

It kind of got him out of his depression.

这让他摆脱了抑郁症。

And it helped him a lot, made him want to be a more functioning person, for them and for me.

这对他帮助很大，让他想成为一个更有能力的人，为了他们，也为了我。

And then for the X-rated portion of our show, we found out that we liked different sex than we'd been having.

然后，在我们节目的 X 级部分，我们发现我们喜欢的性别与以前不同。

[LAUGH]

[笑]

You found that out together?

你们一起发现的吗？

Lynette Sharp It was kind of-- it was a weird thing.

Lynette Sharp 这有点——这是一件奇怪的事情。

A lady in the club posted something on Facebook about something about a sexual thing, and I commented on it, and Marshall texted me immediately and said, did you mean that?

俱乐部里的一位女士在 Facebook 上发布了一些有关性的事情，我对此发表了评论，马歇尔立即给我发短信说，你是这个意思吗？

And I said, yes.

我说，是的。

And so we started talking.

于是我们开始交谈。

And that made us realize we'd been having sex wrong the whole time.

这让我们意识到我们一直以来的性行为都是错误的。

I mean, I want to ask what you mean, but you don't have to get into it.

我的意思是，我想问你的意思，但你不必深究。

Yeah.

是的。

Zoe Chace And you found that out because this woman posted something, and you commented, and he texted you.

Zoe Chace 你发现了这一点，因为这个女人发布了一些东西，你发表了评论，然后他给你发了短信。

Yes.

是的。

Zoe Chace Lynette was still going to church, but now in her Sons of Anarchy t-shirt.

Zoe Chace Lynette 仍然去教堂，但现在穿着她的 Sons of Anarchy T 恤。

They didn't know what to make of her.

他们不知道该怎么看待她。

In Lynette's next chapter of self-realization-- maybe you saw this coming-- she's watching Amber Heard in this movie The Rum Diary, and realizes, actually, she's always liked girls.

在莱内特自我实现的下一个篇章中——也许你已经预见到了这一点——她正在看艾梅柏·希尔德在电影《朗姆酒日记》中的表演，并意识到，实际上，她一直喜欢女孩。

And she gives Marshall an ultimatum.

她给马歇尔下了最后通牒。

Either I can smoke weed in the garage or we're having an open relationship, one of those, because I'm losing my mind here.

要么我可以在车库里吸大麻，要么我们建立一种开放的关系，其中之一，因为我在这里失去了理智。

I need relief.

我需要缓解。

I need, like, fun.

我需要，比如，乐趣。

He wasn't happy with either option at first, but then he got what she was asking.

起初他对这两种选择都不满意，但后来他明白了她的要求。

Really, I want to explore having sex with women.

真的，我想探索与女性发生性关系。

I've never been able to explore my sexuality in that way.

我从来没有能够以这种方式探索我的性取向。

And he said, well, that's fine.

他说，好吧，没关系。

Because men.

因为男人。

Because men.

因为男人。

Yeah.

是的。

Lynette Sharp And so then we would go out on dates and look at women together.

Lynette Sharp 然后我们就出去约会，一起观察女人。

[LAUGH]

[笑]

That was a high point.

那是一个高峰。

Lynette is a person who goes all the way when she's into something.

Lynette是一个当她喜欢某件事时就会全力以赴的人。

But however hot Amber Heard is in The Rum Diary, in Lynette's mind, Lynette is still a church lady in suburban Texas.

但无论《朗姆酒日记》中的艾梅柏·希尔德有多性感，在琳内特的心目中，琳内特仍然是德克萨斯州郊区的一名教堂女士。

She's a conservative.

她是一个保守派。

At this point in Lynette's story, it's 2011, 2012, and she's paying more attention to the news now more than she used to.

在 Lynette 的故事中，现在是 2011 年、2012 年，她现在比以前更加关注新闻。

And Barack Obama is running for office again.

巴拉克·奥巴马再次竞选公职。

I remember when Obama was elected for the second time, I cried.

我记得奥巴马第二次当选时，我哭了。

I thought we were all going to be under Sharia law any time.

我以为我们随时都会受到伊斯兰教法的约束。

Like, so many people in my life felt that way.

就像，我生命中很多人都有这种感觉。

And the Pizzagate stuff was going on then.

那时披萨门事件正在发生。

And--

还有——

Did you believe in that?

你相信吗？

Lynette Sharp I did.

莱内特·夏普 我做到了。

Lynette didn't like Trump either, though, things like the "grab them by the pussy" tape.

不过，莱内特也不喜欢特朗普，比如“抓住他们的阴部”磁带。

No thank you.

不，谢谢。

And it wasn't long before basically, presidential politics kind of caught up to her personal politics.

不久之后，总统政治基本上就赶上了她的个人政治。

Which is true for a lot of people, right?

这对很多人来说都是如此，对吗？

National politics became intertwined with people's actual identities.

国家政治与人们的实际身份交织在一起。

The MeToo movement was a thing for her.

MeToo 运动对她来说很重要。

Oh, and also around then--

哦，还有那个时候——

Then there's the repeal of Roe v.

然后是罗伊诉案件的废除。

Wade.

韦德。

That happened.

那件事发生了。

She was fighting with her friends and family over it.

她为此与朋友和家人发生争执。

When Roe v.

当罗伊诉。

Wade, they were going to get rid of Roe v.

韦德，他们要除掉罗伊诉。

Wade.

韦德。

And I knew it.

我知道。

And I knew it was coming.

我知道它即将到来。

And then I'm like, this is bad.

然后我想，这很糟糕。

And people were like, you're just blowing it all up out of proportion.

人们说，你只是把这一切夸大了。

But you were starting to find yourself on a little bit of a different planet than the people around you.

但你开始发现自己与周围的人处于一个不同的星球。

Yes.

是的。

Zoe Chace In 2022, she started going to protests for the first time.

Zoe Chace 2022年，她第一次开始参加抗议活动。

There's something very "only in America" about Lynette's life, I think-- how fast it moved, how many eras she went through, embodying each one.

我认为，莱内特的生活中有一种“只有在美国”的东西——它变化得有多快，她经历了多少个时代，体现了每个时代。

I kept thinking of this old article from Ms. Magazine from 1972 by Jane O'Reilly.

我一直在想 1972 年 Jane O'Reilly 发表在《女士杂志》上的这篇旧文章。

It was called "Click, The Housewife's Moment of Truth," about all these realizations women were having about things they didn't actually have to do.

它被称为“点击，家庭主妇的真理时刻”，讲述了女性对她们实际上不必做的事情的所有这些认识。

"We are all housewives.

“我们都是家庭主妇。

We would prefer to be persons," the article said, a year before Roe.

我们更愿意成为人，”这篇文章比罗伊早一年说道。

Lynette was that housewife.

莱内特就是那个家庭主妇。

Click.

点击。

Decades later, here she is on her own motorcycle, checking out girls with her husband.

几十年后，她骑着自己的摩托车，和丈夫一起观察女孩们。

And then Roe is struck down, and it feels personal.

然后罗伊被击倒了，感觉很个人化。

Lynette has come to truly hate the idea of men controlling women.

莱内特开始真正讨厌男人控制女人的想法。

That's how she saw it.

她就是这么看的。

It's around this time when she finds her last club.

就在这个时候，她找到了她的最后一个俱乐部。

It's a group of people in the Dallas Fort Worth area.

这是达拉斯沃斯堡地区的一群人。

She meets them through a local LGBT center.

她通过当地的 LGBT 中心认识了他们。

They do self-defense classes.

他们上自卫课。

Some of them are in a book club, the Emma Goldman book club, where they read radical literature and zines.

他们中的一些人参加了一个读书俱乐部，即艾玛·戈德曼读书俱乐部，在那里他们阅读激进的文学和杂志。

Many of them are part of a local gun club, the Socialist Rifle Association, where they do target practice and learn about gun safety.

他们中的许多人都是当地枪支俱乐部社会主义步枪协会的成员，他们在那里进行打靶练习并了解枪支安全知识。

Soon, she was spending most of her time with them.

很快，她大部分时间都和他们在一起了。

How did that happen, that they became your closest friends?

他们是如何成为你最亲密的朋友的？

Well, they were the ones that-- in person, life.

嗯，他们就是那些——在生活中的人。

I mean, I didn't have a job.

我的意思是，我没有工作。

A lot of these people didn't have jobs.

这些人很多都没有工作。

We don't love capitalism, and a lot of them are so very neurodivergent that they just couldn't work.

我们不喜欢资本主义，而且他们中的很多人神经分裂，根本无法工作。

And a lot of them were younger.

他们中的很多人都很年轻。

And yeah, it felt like-- it felt amazing to know that there were other people that actually cared about something other than themselves, that were willing to help other people for free.

是的，感觉就像——知道还有其他人真正关心自己以外的事情，愿意无偿帮助其他人，这感觉很神奇。

I mean, they gave their time.

我的意思是，他们付出了时间。

We helped the homeless.

我们帮助无家可归者。

We helped disabled people.

我们帮助残疾人。

I would lead meditations, because I was-- I love meditation.

我会引导冥想，因为我——我喜欢冥想。

And they taught me how to eat vegan food that wasn't horrible.

他们教我如何吃并不可怕的素食。

This, of course, is the alleged Antifa cell that's on trial.

当然，这就是正在接受审判的所谓 Ant​​ifa 组织。

There were so many ways to be in a group in this group.

加入这个团体有很多方式。

And Lynette loves groups, like that gun club, for instance.

莱内特喜欢团体，例如枪支俱乐部。

A few people in the group were transgender.

该团体中有一些人是变性人。

There was a sort of ethos around, if people who hate us have guns, we're going to have guns.

周围有一种风气，如果恨我们的人有枪，我们就会有枪。

Lynette got super into that, joined the member Welfare Committee.

莱内特对此非常感兴趣，加入了会员福利委员会。

Lynette also joined a writing group.

莱内特还加入了一个写作小组。

They called themselves the resistance writers.

他们称自己为抵抗作家。

They had a lot of potlucks, obviously, and karaoke nights.

显然，他们有很多聚餐，还有卡拉 OK 之夜。

What did you sing?

你唱的是什么歌？

Lynette Sharp Oh, the best times we had.

Lynette Sharp 哦，我们度过了最美好的时光。

I sang everything.

我唱了一切。

I sang so many things.

我唱了很多东西。

I love P!nk.

我爱 P!nk。

"Wild Hearts Can't Be Broken." I told them that used to be-- I think a lot of people think that.

“狂野的心是无法破碎的。”我告诉他们过去——我想很多人都这么认为。

And I used it as a song from, like, in a personal relationship.

我把它当作一首来自私人关系中的歌曲。

But to me, it was, like, my love song to the world, that we're not going to be broken, that we're going to keep fighting.

但对我来说，这就像我对世界的情歌，我们不会被击垮，我们将继续战斗。

And if you look at the lyrics, it's a great song.

如果你看一下歌词，就会发现这是一首很棒的歌曲。

It was like she was having a sort of love affair, but with a bunch of ideas.

就好像她正在经历一场恋爱，但又充满了很多想法。

One person in particular she grew really close to was Ben Song, whom everyone called Champagne.

其中一个与她关系非常密切的人是本·宋（Ben Song），大家都称他为“香槟”。

Song, Champagne, went by any/all pronouns with this group of people.

歌曲，香槟，与这群人一起使用任何/所有代词。

During the trial, most people used he/him, including his lawyer, and I'll do the same.

庭审过程中，大多数人都利用了他/他，包括他的律师，我也会这么做。

In this group, a lot of people looked up to him.

在这个群体中，很多人都对他刮目相看。

He was really into self-defense.

他真的很自卫。

He taught martial arts to many of them.

他向他们中的许多人传授武术。

He taught gun safety to many of them with the Socialist Rifle Association.

他在社会主义步枪协会向他们中的许多人教授枪支安全知识。

He went to a lot of protests.

他参加了很多抗议活动。

He'd been in the Marines.

他曾在海军陆战队服役。

He was soft-spoken, but very confident.

他说话轻声细语，但是却非常自信。

Song was the one that night who would fire the shot that hit the police officer.

那天晚上，宋就是那个开枪打中警察的人。

What was your relationship like with Ben, with Champagne?

你和本、香槟的关系怎么样？

It was very close.

非常接近。

I remember telling him that he was my best friend in all this shit that we were going through.

我记得告诉他，在我们经历的所有这些事情中，他是我最好的朋友。

Really?

真的吗？

Lynette Sharp I know that I wasn't his best friend, but I don't know.

Lynette Sharp 我知道我不是他最好的朋友，但我不知道。

I just felt very close to him.

我只是觉得和他很亲近。

I admired him.

我很欣赏他。

I respected him a lot.

我非常尊重他。

He wasn't a perfect person.

他不是一个完美的人。

Going to their house, it was a mess.

去他们家，里面一片狼藉。

These kids are-- and I do think of them as kids a lot.

这些孩子是——我确实经常把他们视为孩子。

I don't mean to.

我不是故意的。

I don't mean to denigrate them or anything, but they were-- I learned so much from them.

我并不是有意诋毁他们或任何东西，但他们——我从他们身上学到了很多东西。

But at the same time, they're so young, and sometimes, their lives weren't working very well.

但与此同时，他们还那么年轻，有时，他们的生活并不顺利。

And so it's a lot easier, sometimes, to focus on the world's problems than your own.

因此，有时候，关注世界的问题比关注自己的问题要容易得多。

Yeah.

是的。

Lynette Sharp And so I did that a lot, I think.

Lynette Sharp 我想我经常这样做。

I think a lot of us did.

我想我们很多人都这么做了。

Lynette was investing so much in this group of people and pulling away from the family stuff that frustrated her, like finding services for her autistic kid, for instance.

Lynette 在这群人身上投入了大量资金，并摆脱了令她沮丧的家庭事务，例如为她患有自闭症的孩子寻找服务。

She tried and tried, and it kept not working.

她试了又试，但始终不起作用。

She stopped trying.

她停止了尝试。

She and her husband were back to living separate lives.

她和她的丈夫又回到了分居的生活。

I remember I was on the way home from something, like, at 2:00 in the morning, one night, and I was thinking about what I was doing the next day, some other thing we were going to do, and I was like, for the first time in my life, I'm doing what I want to do with my time.

我记得有一天晚上，我在做完某件事回家的路上，比如，凌晨 2:00，我在想第二天我要做什么，我们要做的其他事情，我当时想，这是我一生中第一次，我在做我想做的事情。

I'd never really been free like that before.

我以前从来没有像现在这样真正自由过。

And it didn't last long, did it?

而且这种情况并没有持续多久，不是吗？

Now we're at that night, July 4, 2025, when everything happened, Lynette had been in some of the Signal chats where people were making plans.

现在我们正处于 2025 年 7 月 4 日的那个晚上，当一切发生时，Lynette 参加了一些 Signal 聊天，人们正在制定计划。

But that night, her husband and her daughter were fighting, some kind of a breakdown.

但那天晚上，她的丈夫和女儿吵架了，有点崩溃了。

Felt like she needed to be at home.

感觉她需要待在家里。

She was awake when people started messaging, trying to figure out what had happened.

当人们开始发消息并试图弄清楚发生了什么事时，她已经醒了。

She heard people had gotten arrested.

她听说有人被捕了。

She heard a cop had been shot.

她听说一名警察被枪杀了。

On one hand, I must have known, but I didn't know.

一方面，我一定知道，但我不知道。

I think I'd already read the reports that were out saying there'd been a-- but I just didn't believe it.

我想我已经读过报道说发生了——但我就是不相信。

Yeah, I just thought-- and I didn't know.

是的，我只是想——但我不知道。

I just knew I needed to go, so if I could help anyone, I wanted to go help.

我只知道我需要去，所以如果我能帮助任何人，我想去帮忙。

I guess I just have a hard time understanding why it was so unbelievable if he did have a gun there.

我想我只是很难理解如果他确实有枪的话为什么会如此令人难以置信。

Like, isn't that sort of-- it is believable that he would shoot someone if he had a gun, right?

就像，这不是——如果他有枪的话，他会开枪打死别人吗？

If he did, it was because of something had happened.

如果他这样做了，那是因为发生了一些事情。

Either it was like unavoidable.

要么这是不可避免的。

I didn't know.

我不知道。

I just knew that I couldn't imagine that happening for no reason.

我只知道我无法想象这种事情会无缘无故地发生。

There had to have been something that went wrong.

一定是出了什么问题。

Then the next day, Lynette gets a message from Song.

第二天，Lynette 收到了 Song 发来的消息。

He was still hiding in the sunflower fields near the detention facility.

他仍然躲在看守所附近的向日葵田里。

Could she help get him out?

她能帮他出去吗？

He had his phone in a Faraday bag, which blocks your cell phone signal so you can't be tracked.

他将手机放在法拉第袋中，该袋会阻挡你的手机信号，这样你就无法被追踪。

A lot of defendants brought those that night, which was more evidence the prosecution pointed to that they were a terrorist cell.

那天晚上，很多被告都带来了这些东西，这进一步证明检方指出他们是恐怖组织。

Ben kept taking his phone out to message Lynette, which, I have to say, does defeat the point of the bag.

本一直拿出手机给 Lynette 发消息，我不得不说，这确实违背了这个包的意义。

I knew, and he told me, I've done a very dangerous thing.

我知道，他告诉我，我做了一件非常危险的事情。

And I said, I know.

我说，我知道。

I love you, friend.

我爱你，朋友。

Why do you think he messaged you in particular?

你认为他为什么特别给你发消息？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I think because he knew that I would be there for him, that I felt kind of unanchored in my own life, that I pretty much lived for the cause or for my friends, and that I would help him.

我想是因为他知道我会在他身边，我感觉自己的生活有点无依无靠，我几乎是为了事业或我的朋友而活，而且我会帮助他。

Lynette and this other guy pick up Song at the side of the road.

莱内特和另一个人在路边接宋。

He's dirty, he's hungry, dehydrated, freaked out, doesn't know where to go.

他很脏，他饿了，脱水了，吓坏了，不知道该去哪里。

Lynette and some others helped get him set up in an apartment someone was cat sitting in.

莱内特和其他一些人帮助他在一间公寓里安顿下来，里面有人养着猫。

I mean, of course, at that point, we knew we were doing something very, very dangerous and very wrong.

我的意思是，当然，在那时，我们知道我们正在做一些非常非常危险且非常错误的事情。

I don't know why we thought we could get away with it.

我不知道为什么我们认为我们可以逃脱惩罚。

But then I went home after that, and for the next four days, I don't think I did much of anything.

但之后我就回家了，在接下来的四天里，我认为我没有做太多事情。

I just laid in bed, and-- I don't remember.

我刚刚躺在床上，然后——我不记得了。

Did you know, in those four days, like, oh, my time, this community, this chapter, this era, is over?

你知道吗，在那四天里，哦，我的时代，这个社区，这一章，这个时代，结束了？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I really, really wasn't thinking.

我真的真的没有多想。

I know that sounds crazy, but I just think I disassociated for most of the four days.

我知道这听起来很疯狂，但我只是觉得我在这四天的大部分时间里都处于分离状态。

Eventually, they came-- law enforcement-- raided her house, arrested her.

最终，执法人员突袭了她的家，逮捕了她。

It was dramatic.

这是戏剧性的。

She says they rolled a big tank-like thing up onto her lawn.

她说他们把一个像坦克一样的大东西滚到了她的草坪上。

Lynette was charged with providing material support to terrorists.

莱内特被指控向恐怖分子提供物质支持。

In jail, she faced a big decision.

在监狱里，她面临着一个重大决定。

Should she cooperate, plead guilty, and help the government?

她应该合作、认罪并帮助政府吗？

That would give her the best chance of a shorter sentence.

这将给她缩短刑期的最佳机会。

Of course, that would go against everything she and her activist friends were all about, to talk to the feds.

当然，这将违背她和她的积极分子朋友们与联邦政府交谈的一切。

But of course, there was another huge consideration, one that actually surprised her after she got arrested.

当然，还有另一个巨大的考虑因素，这在她被捕后实际上让她感到惊讶。

All this affected my family a lot more than I thought it would.

所有这一切对我家人的影响比我想象的要大得多。

We'd all been so distant for so long I kind of felt like I was-- they wouldn't miss me much.

我们都已经疏远了这么久，我有点感觉——他们不会太想念我。

That turned out not to be true.

事实证明这不是真的。

Lynette's family both needed and wanted her back.

莱内特的家人既需要也希望她回来。

Her husband, Marshall, was devastated.

她的丈夫马歇尔悲痛欲绝。

Her daughter was suicidal.

她的女儿有自杀倾向。

Her autistic kid was moved to Austin to live with her other daughter.

她患有自闭症的孩子被搬到奥斯汀与她的另一个女儿住在一起。

And they were fighting.

他们正在打架。

And it was just really chaos at home.

家里真的很混乱。

She was despondent over what to do.

她对该怎么办感到沮丧。

And I just was in my cell just going over, I can't do this.

我只是在牢房里过来，我不能这样做。

I can't talk.

我不能说话。

I can't plead.

我无法辩解。

I can't-- I'd be a snitch.

我不能——我会成为一个告密者。

I'd be a traitor.

我会是一个叛徒。

My family was begging me to do it.

我的家人恳求我这样做。

She tried to channel in her head what Song would say.

她试图在脑海中回想宋会说的话。

And where she finally ended up is that she thought he would understand what she had to do.

她最终的结局是，她认为他会理解她必须做什么。

She had to get out of as much trouble as she could.

她必须尽可能摆脱困境。

So Lynette's lawyer started to talk with the government about a plea deal, and Lynette was fine with talking about all the details of that night, everything she had done.

于是，莱内特的律师开始与政府讨论认罪协议，而莱内特很乐意谈论那天晚上的所有细节，以及她所做的一切。

But there was one sticking point.

但有一个症结所在。

At what point did they start talking to you about Antifa, and what did you make of that?

他们什么时候开始和你谈论 Antifa？你对此有何看法？

Right away.

马上。

And I'm like, I am anti-fascist.

我想，我是反法西斯的。

I said, there's no group called Antifa.

我说，没有一个叫 Antifa 的团体。

I said, but I am anti-fascist.

我说过，但我是反法西斯的。

I said, I don't like fascists.

我说，我不喜欢法西斯。

And if you do, well-- I think that's when Erin interrupted me.

如果你这样做了，那么——我想就在那时艾琳打断了我。

[LAUGH] Because I was about to call him a fascist.

[笑]因为我正要称他为法西斯分子。

Erin, Lynette's lawyer, was there during all these little talks.

莱内特的律师艾琳在所有这些简短的谈话中都在场。

The government seemed fixated on getting her to say she'd been part of an Antifa cell.

政府似乎一心想让她承认自己是安提法组织的成员。

They proposed the following language.

他们提出了以下语言。

"Lynette Reed Sharp adhered to an Antifa, revolutionary, anarchist, or autonomous Marxist ideology that is anti-law enforcement, anti-immigration enforcement, and calls for the overthrow of the US government, law enforcement authorities, and system of law.

“莱内特·里德·夏普（Lynette Reed Sharp）坚持反法西斯主义、革命、无政府主义或自治马克思主义意识形态，即反执法、反移民执法，并呼吁推翻美国政府、执法当局和法律体系。

Antifa is a militant enterprise." One cooperator did agree to that, and in fact, read it out loud in the courtroom.

Antifa 是一个激进的组织。”一位合作者确实同意这一点，而且事实上，他还在法庭上大声朗读了这一点。

Lynette was like, no way.

莱内特说，不可能。

I'm not going to lie.

我不会撒谎。

I'm not going to perjure myself.

我不会自己作伪证。

We weren't a terrorist group.

我们不是恐怖组织。

It was really just a protest.

这实际上只是一个抗议。

It was a noise demonstration, which I told them from the very beginning that there's no Antifa group, that we're just a group of friends that we're going to protest.

这是一场噪音示威，我从一开始就告诉他们，没有 Antifa 组织，我们只是一群我们要抗议的朋友。

Yes, they read anarchist zines and philosophy and went to a shooting range, and they were serious about it.

是的，他们阅读无政府主义杂志和哲学，还去了射击场，而且他们对此很认真。

But at the same time, Lynette says there was some element of playing dressup to the whole thing with all the accoutrement that went along with it.

但与此同时，Lynette 表示，整件事中存在着一些装扮元素，以及与之相伴的所有装备。

The government proposed new language about Antifa cells.

政府提出了有关 Antifa 细胞的新措辞。

Lynette and her lawyer again said no.

莱内特和她的律师再次拒绝了。

Here's the language they finally ended up with.

这是他们最终得出的语言。

"Lynette Sharp adhered to an anti-fascist, anti-ICE anti-government ideology--" she was fine with that part-- quote, "which the government classifies as Antifa." So she's not saying there was an Antifa or that she was part of it.

“Lynette Sharp 坚持反法西斯、反 ICE 反政府意识形态——”她对这部分内容很满意——引用，“政府将其归类为 Antifa。”所以她并没有说存在 Antifa 或她是其中的一部分。

But she agrees that the government thinks there is.

但她同意政府的看法。

No other cooperator's plea agreement is so pointed.

没有其他合作者的认罪协议如此尖锐。

As part of the deal, she'd get a maximum of 15 years in prison and wouldn't be charged with anything other than material support.

作为协议的一部分，她将被判处最高 15 年监禁，并且除了物质支持之外不会受到任何指控。

She could maybe get a lower sentence recommendation from the government to the judge, depending on how helpful her testimony was to their case.

她可能会得到政府向法官提出的减刑建议，具体取决于她的证词对案件的帮助程度。

The day she was taken into court to testify, Lynette was completely on her own.

莱内特被带上法庭作证的那天，她完全孤身一人。

The bailiff let her in with a chain around her waist.

法警让她进来，腰间系着一条链子。

What was it like to walk into the courtroom and see them?

走进法庭看到他们是什么感觉？

Oh, it was hard.

哦，这很难。

I mean, I couldn't see them very well when they were seated.

我的意思是，当他们坐下时我看不清楚他们。

I could see Song immediately.

我立刻就能看到宋。

And I could tell from his face that he just didn't hate me.

从他的表情我可以看出他并不讨厌我。

His face-- I felt like he was definitely trying to convey to me that he was-- he didn't hate me.

他的表情——我觉得他肯定是想向我传达这样的信息——他并不恨我。

He was very open-faced, very smiling, very-- and no one else had any emotion.

他非常坦然，非常微笑，非常——其他人没有任何情绪。

And then I got emotional, of course.

当然，然后我就变得情绪化了。

And then the prosecutor asked, you're getting emotional.

然后检察官问，你变得情绪化了。

Why is that?

这是为什么？

I'm like, because I love them.

我喜欢，因为我爱他们。

And he said, they're your friends.

他说，他们是你的朋友。

And I said, yes.

我说，是的。

And if I'd have been quick on my feet, I would have said, probably not anymore.

如果我能迅速行动起来，我会说，可能不会了。

I didn't think about that until after.

直到后来我才想到这一点。

But it was emotional.

但这是情绪化的。

It was hard.

这很难。

Just because I do love them, and I am afraid that they are angry at me for talking.

只是因为我确实爱他们，我担心他们因为我说话而生我的气。

And I guess I had hoped to see a little bit of warmness or something that I didn't see from anyone other than Song.

我想我本来希望看到一点温暖，或者是除了宋以外我从其他人身上看不到的东西。

When Lynette spoke, even though she was a witness for the prosecution, I have to say, a lot of what she said, it really seemed to support the defense's narrative of what happened.

当Lynette发言时，尽管她是控方的证人，但我不得不说，她说的很多话，似乎确实支持了辩方对所发生事情的叙述。

This was just a book club.

这只是一个读书俱乐部。

This was just a protest.

这只是一次抗议。

She said, quote, "They think we are an organization, I guess, called Antifa.

她说，“我想他们认为我们是一个组织，叫做 Antifa。

We are not."

我们不是。”

I thought, I can't really help Song anymore, but I thought I could help the rest of them.

我想，我真的不能再帮助宋了，但我想我可以帮助其他人。

The other cooperators, all in their own ways, to varying degrees, undermined the idea that this was an Antifa plot.

其他合作者都以自己的方式在不同程度上破坏了这是安提法阴谋的想法。

They testified they were surprised someone got shot.

他们作证说，他们对有人被枪杀感到惊讶。

They testified the plan had been to set off fireworks.

他们证实计划是为了燃放烟花。

One of them testified that right after Ben Song shot the cop, Song raced past him in the dark, holding his rifle, yelling, "Oh shit, oh fuck, oh shit, oh fuck," and then he ditched the rifle and ran off, which seemed like something you might yell if you had not meant to shoot a cop.

其中一人作证说，本·宋射杀警察后，宋就在黑暗中从他身边跑过，拿着步枪，大喊“噢操，操操，操操，操操，操，操，操”，然后他扔掉步枪逃跑了，如果你不是故意开枪打警察的话，这看起来就像你可能会大喊大叫一样。

None of it seemed great for the prosecution's case.

对于检方的案件来说，这一切似乎都不太好。

Which brings us to the last act, Act 4, The Verdict.

这就把我们带到了最后一幕，第四幕，《判决》。

So here we are, at the end.

所以我们到了最后。

And the defense team that I've been hanging out with is psyched.

和我一起度过的防守团队很兴奋。

After the cooperators testified, and the Antifa expert, who they think maybe isn't an expert, they felt very confident that the government did not prove their case.

在合作者作证以及他们认为可能不是专家的 Antifa 专家作证后，他们非常确信政府没有证明他们的情况。

They were so confident, after the prosecution rested, the defense rested too.

他们太自信了，控方休息了，辩方也休息了。

They didn't put on a case at all.

他们根本没有立案。

As usual, I was hanging out with Patrick at the end of that day.

像往常一样，那天结束时我和帕特里克一起出去玩。

So what did you think of today, my friend?

那么你今天有什么想法，我的朋友？

You all did it.

你们都做到了。

You rested.

你休息了。

You didn't call a single witness.

你没有传唤任何证人。

Right.

正确的。

That is a factual statement.

这是一个事实陈述。

I was looking for something more analytical and incisive.

我一直在寻找更具分析性和深刻性的东西。

I mean, it's either brilliant or it's a colossal mistake.

我的意思是，这要么是辉煌的，要么是一个巨大的错误。

I don't know which it is.

我不知道是哪一个。

By deciding to rest, they were sending a signal to the jury about how weak the government's case was.

通过决定休息，他们向陪审团发出了一个信号，表明政府的案件有多么薄弱。

All the defense lawyers agreed to the move.

所有辩护律师均同意此举。

Things had gone so well for them, it seemed, there was nothing to add.

事情对他们来说进展顺利，似乎没有什么可补充的。

And bringing their own case risked opening the defendants up to new lines of attack from the government.

自己提起诉讼可能会让被告面临政府的新攻击。

Closing statements happened the next day.

结案陈述于第二天进行。

The prosecution repeats what they've been saying for weeks.

检方重复了他们几周来一直在说的话。

At one point, they put up their own Venn diagram Antifa, the Emma Goldman book club, the Socialist Rifle Association, all overlapping at the words "direct militant action." The delivery is dry and emotionless.

他们一度提出了自己的维恩图 Antifa、艾玛·戈德曼读书俱乐部、社会主义步枪协会，所有这些都与“直接激进行动”一词重叠。交付内容干巴巴、没有感情。

The defense is the opposite.

防守则相反。

They're at a high, Atticus Finch, inherit the wind level.

他们处于高位，阿迪克斯·芬奇，继承了风的高度。

It was exciting to watch.

观看起来很令人兴奋。

It was like watching the climactic scene of a movie over and over, written by different authors.

这就像一遍又一遍地观看不同作者写的电影的高潮场景。

"Fireworks on the Fourth of July," Brian Bouffard begins, McLain's co-counsel, "was all this was ever intended to be.

“七月四日的烟花，”麦克莱恩的副律师布赖恩·布法德开始说道，“这就是这一切的本来目的。

Noise, lights, and a message of hope to the foreigner who resides in our land."

噪音、灯光，以及对居住在我们土地上的外国人的希望信息。”

One notable moment came from Ben Song's attorney, the shooter's attorney, who made the case that Song did not intend to hit the police officer.

一个值得注意的时刻来自本·宋的律师，即枪手的律师，他证明宋无意袭击警察。

He had fired his gun as, quote, "suppressive fire." Song, who served in the Marines, saw Lieutenant Gross jump out of the car with his gun drawn and pointed at someone running away.

他开枪时用的是“压制性火力”。曾在海军陆战队服役的宋看到格罗斯中尉从车里跳出来，拔出枪，指着逃跑的人。

And so, his attorney said, he fired his gun to force the police officer to take cover.

他的律师说，因此他开枪迫使警察躲藏。

Song's attorney showed a video to the jury of bullets hitting the ground, forcing little puffs of smoke into the air.

宋的律师向陪审团展示了一段视频，视频中子弹击中地面，在空中冒出少量烟雾。

The bullet that hit the officer, he said, was a ricochet.

他说，击中这名警官的子弹是跳弹的。

And then it's over.

然后就结束了。

The defense attorneys are in such a good mood, a handful of them head over to the Fort Worth Club down the street, the exclusive, members-only spot.

辩护律师们的心情非常好，他们中的一些人前往街上的沃斯堡俱乐部，这是一个仅限会员的专属场所。

I know my way around there.

我熟悉那里的路。

It's off the record, but I can say the feeling around the club chairs is relief.

这是不公开的，但我可以说俱乐部主席周围的感觉是轻松的。

I happened to be waiting around in the courtroom hallway when the verdict came in 1 and 1/2 days later.

1又1/2天后判决结果出来时，我恰好在法庭走廊里等待。

Remember, there's no recording in there, so I don't have tape of it.

请记住，那里没有录音，所以我没有磁带。

I can tell you it was like an icy wind blew down the hall.

我可以告诉你，就像一阵冰冷的风吹过大厅。

The verdict is in.

判决已在。

All the defendants' families hustled into the courtroom, and the reporters.

所有被告的家属和记者都涌入法庭。

The jurors filed in.

陪审员们纷纷入场。

One of the jurors was crying.

一名陪审员哭了。

The judge read the verdicts.

法官宣读了判决书。

Eight of the nine defendants had been charged with material support for terrorists.

九名被告中的八人被指控为恐怖分子提供物质支持。

Every single one of them was found guilty.

他们每个人都被判有罪。

In fact, they were found guilty of almost everything.

事实上，他们几乎所有事情都被判有罪。

They were charged with-- riot, using explosives-- fireworks count as explosives.

他们被指控——骚乱、使用爆炸物——烟花被视为爆炸物。

And then there were the attempted murder and firearms charges that went with that.

然后还有随之而来的谋杀未遂和枪支指控。

Only Ben Song, the actual shooter, was found guilty of those.

只有真正的枪手本·宋（Ben Song）被判有罪。

Everyone was facing very long prison sentences.

每个人都面临着很长的监禁。

I run out of the courthouse into the street so I could start taping.

我跑出法院跑到街上，这样我就可以开始录音了。

One of the dads is out here, Ed Kent, a used car salesman from around Dallas.

其中一位爸爸就在这里，埃德·肯特 (Ed Kent)，他是达拉斯附近的一名二手车推销员。

I talked to him a bunch during the trial.

庭审期间我和他聊了很多。

His daughter, who was 24 years old, had taken a plea deal.

他 24 岁的女儿已接受认罪协议。

She testified for the prosecution.

她为检方作证。

He'd come to court almost every day.

他几乎每天都来法庭。

A reporter asked him, what's the reaction in there?

有记者问他，里面有什么反应？

It's horrible for the parents.

这对父母来说太可怕了。

Shaking and trembling and realizing their child's going to be in jail for a long time.

浑身发抖，意识到他们的孩子将在监狱里呆很长一段时间。

Yeah, terrible, terrible.

是啊，可怕，可怕。

It's just terrible for the parents.

这对父母来说简直是太可怕了。

He'd already been through these emotions of realizing his daughter wasn't coming home for years.

当他意识到女儿已经好几年没有回家时，他已经经历过这些情绪。

I'd be crying if I was in their situation.

如果我处于他们的境地，我一定会哭。

I've cried over my daughter's situation a number of times, by myself.

我曾多次独自为女儿的处境哭泣。

But it's like, just say that it was a travesty of justice is not maybe true either, because there's-- they all were foolish.

但这就像，只是说这是对正义的嘲弄也可能不是真的，因为他们都很愚蠢。

That's a friend of the defendants screaming at Kent because his daughter was a cooperating witness, or a snitch, as they saw it.

那是被告的一位朋友对肯特大喊大叫，因为他的女儿是合作证人，或者是他们眼中的告密者。

I spotted Brian Bouffard, the defense attorney, headed toward his car.

我发现辩护律师布莱恩·布法德朝他的车走去。

He was carrying a white, button-down shirt on a hanger, a shirt he'd brought for his client to wear in court.

他的衣架上挂着一件白色的纽扣衬衫，这是他为他的当事人在法庭上穿的衬衫。

That was rough.

那很粗糙。

Zoe Chace What do you-- what do you think?

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）你觉得怎么样？

I mean, I think they got it wrong.

我的意思是，我认为他们搞错了。

I think that they did not parse through reasonable doubt the way that the law would have them do it.

我认为他们没有通过合理怀疑来解析法律要求他们这样做的方式。

I certainly don't dispute that that is their verdict, but yeah, it's just hard to take right now.

我当然不否认这是他们的裁决，但是，是的，现在很难接受。

Yeah.

是的。

He hangs up the shirt in his car.

他把衬衫挂在车里。

The sun is blazing down on our heads.

太阳正照在我们的头上。

What do you think of, everybody's guilty of terrorism?

每个人都犯有恐怖主义罪，你怎么看？

It's a material support.

这是物质上的支持。

Yeah, the material support.

是的，物质支持。

Zoe Chace What does that mean?

佐伊·查斯 这是什么意思？

Well, it means the government is going to be emboldened to continue to use the law in this way, which is a danger to everybody, as everybody ought to know.

嗯，这意味着政府将有勇气继续以这种方式使用法律，这对每个人来说都是危险的，每个人都应该知道。

So.

所以。

And how are you?

你好吗？

Brian Bouffard Pretty rough.

布赖恩·布法德 相当粗糙。

Not so good.

不太好。

Later, he told me it was one of the worst days of his life, losing this case.

后来，他告诉我，输掉这个官司是他一生中最糟糕的日子之一。

Every defense attorney is appealing this verdict.

每一位辩护律师都对这一判决提出上诉。

But they're kind of in a weird situation in a way I didn't fully understand until the end of the trial.

但他们的处境有点奇怪，直到审判结束我才完全理解。

The main questions of this trial, Is Antifa a terrorist organization?

本次审判的主要问题是Antifa是恐怖组织吗？

Are these defendants Antifa?

这些被告是Antifa吗？

are not actually the questions that were put in front of the jurors.

实际上并不是摆在陪审员面前的问题。

The jury actually had to answer a much simpler set of questions, providing material support to terrorists.

陪审团实际上必须回答一组简单得多的问题，为恐怖分子提供物质支持。

It's 18 US code, Section 2339(a).

这是 18 美国法规，第 2339(a) 条。

It's a law that expanded dramatically after 9/11.

这项法律在 9/11 事件后急剧扩大。

And strictly speaking, you can be charged with it if you do something as simple as do more than $1,000 worth of damage to a federal building intending to violate the law.

严格来说，如果您做了一些简单的事情，例如故意违反法律，对联邦建筑造成价值超过 1,000 美元的损坏，您可能会被指控。

That's it.

就是这样。

That's all you need.

这就是你所需要的。

The prosecution argued they did that-- the graffiti, the slashed tires in the parking lot, the broken security camera.

检方辩称他们这样做了——涂鸦、停车场轮胎被割破、安全摄像头坏了。

The prosecution also argued two other things that would qualify, but the graffiti, tires, and camera damage on their own would be enough.

检方还提出了另外两件事，但涂鸦、轮胎和相机损坏本身就足够了。

Which is to say, the entire Antifa portion of the trial, that wasn't necessary to prove their case.

也就是说，审判的整个 Antifa 部分都没有必要证明他们的案子。

The judge actually pointed this out toward the end of the trial, after sitting through day after day of the government's storytelling about Antifa flags and symbols and zines and book clubs and clothing and Signal chats.

事实上，在审判即将结束时，法官在日复一日地听政府讲述安提法旗帜、符号、杂志、读书俱乐部、服装和信号聊天的故事后，指出了这一点。

The judge asked the prosecutors a question.

法官向检察官提出问题。

Is it necessary to prove this stuff about Antifa?

Antifa的这些东西有必要证明吗？

He said, whether it's Antifa or the Methodist Women's Auxiliary of Weatherford, why does it matter?

他说，无论是Antifa还是Weatherford卫理公会妇女辅助队，为什么重要？

It doesn't.

事实并非如此。

The jury doesn't have to believe the Antifa part at all in order to convict them of material support to terrorists.

陪审团根本不必相信 Antifa 部分就可以判定他们向恐怖分子提供物质支持。

So all of that was in March.

所有这一切都是在三月份。

Sentences in the Prairieland case came down a couple weeks ago.

Prairieland 案的判决已于几周前下达。

For everyone who was accused of material support to terrorists, six of them got 50 years.

对于所有被指控向恐怖分子提供物质支持的人，其中六人被判处 50 年徒刑。

One of them got 70 years.

其中一人被判70年。

The one defendant who wasn't accused of material support, he got 30 years.

一名未被指控提供物质支持的被告被判 30 年徒刑。

His crimes?

他的罪行？

He moved a box of zines and other stuff after the night at Prairieland and was convicted of conspiracy to conceal documents.

在草原乐园过夜后，他搬走了一盒杂志和其他东西，并被判串谋隐匿文件罪。

He was not at the actual night of the fireworks.

他并不在真正的烟花之夜。

None of them had a prior criminal record.

他们都没有犯罪记录。

Ben Song, who shot the officer, got 100 years.

本·宋（Ben Song）枪杀了这名警官，被判 100 年徒刑。

The material support to terrorists charge can jump you to pretty large sentencing numbers.

对恐怖分子指控的物质支持可能会导致相当大的量刑数字。

One defense attorney at sentencing pointed out that 30 years is what you give murderers or cartel members.

一位辩护律师在宣判时指出，对杀人犯或贩毒集团成员来说，30年是有期徒刑。

For comparison, the highest sentence any of the January 6 rioters got, before they were all pardoned and released, was 22 years.

相比之下，1 月 6 日的骚乱者在全部被赦免和释放之前，被判处的最高刑期是 22 年。

Most of them got a lot less than that.

他们中的大多数人得到的比这少得多。

None of them were charged with material support to terrorists or anything terrorism-related.

他们中没有人被指控向恐怖分子提供物质支持或任何与恐怖主义有关的事情。

But the severity of these sentences, that was the judge's decision.

但这些刑罚的严重程度，那是法官的决定。

There were two sentencing judges.

宣判的法官有两名。

At sentencing, they talked about deterrence, sending a message to anyone else with a similar ideology.

在宣判时，他们谈到了威慑，向任何具有类似意识形态的人发出了信息。

One former federal prosecutor told me, the government probably sees this case as validating their Antifa narrative.

一位前联邦检察官告诉我，政府可能认为此案证实了他们的 Antifa 叙述。

It can exist in a courtroom, even if they weren't actually convicted of being Antifa.

它可以存在于法庭上，即使他们实际上没有被定罪为 Antifa。

There's already another case like it in another state.

另一个州已经发生了另一起类似的案件。

The charging documents are filled with claims the defendants are part of Antifa, using some of the same language that was used in Texas.

指控文件中充满了被告是 Antifa 成员的说法，使用的语言与德克萨斯州使用的语言相同。

But if you look closely at this case, the Prairieland case, at what was actually in the charges, at what was said in court, at the way the plea deals were written in the end, and what the defendants were convicted of, it doesn't prove anything about Antifa at all.

但如果你仔细观察这个案子，即草原兰案，看看指控中的实际内容，法庭上所说的话，最后写下认罪协议的方式，以及被告被定罪的内容，你会发现它根本不能证明任何关于 Antifa 的事情。

Zoe Chace.

佐伊·查斯。

By the way, Lynette Sharp, who Zoe interviewed in jail, who pled guilty as part of her plea deal, was sentenced a couple weeks ago.

顺便说一句，佐伊在监狱里采访过的琳内特·夏普（Lynette Sharp）在认罪协议中认罪，几周前被判刑。

She got nine years.

她被判了九年。

At her sentencing, she apologized to Lieutenant Thomas Gross, the police officer who was shot, and she apologized to her family.

在宣判时，她向被枪杀的警官托马斯·格罗斯中尉道歉，并向家人道歉。

"To be human is to make mistakes," she said, "sometimes terrible ones."

“生而为人，就会犯错误，”她说，“有时是可怕的错误。”

Well, our program was produced today by Zoe Chace and edited by David Kestenbaum.

嗯，我们今天的节目由 Zoe Chace 制作，由 David Kestenbaum 编辑。

People who put together today's show include Adriene Lilly, Molly Marcello, Andrea Marks, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Ruthie Pettitto, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Laura Starecheski, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.

今天节目的制作人包括 Adriene Lilly、Molly Marcello、Andrea Marks、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Ruthie Pettitto、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Laura Starecheski、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Nancy Updike、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。

Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.

我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。

Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.

我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。

Special thanks to Toluwani Osibamowo, Kim Paschall, Thomas Brzozowski, Chris Cofer, James Luster, Marquita Clayton, Brad Sauer, Xavier de Janon, Lydia Koza, Luis, AC, the DFW support committee, Yunyong McLain, Adam Federman, Amber Lowery, Kelsey Mittaur, Jose Pagliery, Janet Reitman, David Weiss, Laci Crisler, Randi Ray, and Dylan Duke.

特别感谢 Toluwani Osibamowo、Kim Paschall、Thomas Brzozowski、Chris Cofer、James Luster、Marquita Clayton、Brad Sauer、Xavier de Janon、Lydia Koza、Luis, AC、DFW 支持委员会、Yunyong McLain、Adam Federman、Amber Lowery、Kelsey Mittaur、Jose Pagliery、Janet Reitman、David Weiss、Laci Crisler、Randi雷和迪伦·杜克。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks today to This American Life partners Helen Ingram, Scott Young, and Daniel Williams.

今天感谢《美国生活》的合作伙伴海伦·英格拉姆 (Helen Ingram)、斯科特·杨 (Scott Young) 和丹尼尔·威廉姆斯 (Daniel Williams)。

To hear our many bonus episodes and get lots of other stuff, including Lately, this weekly newsletter that I've been writing where I tell you what's happening behind the scenes of the show and I recommend a movie or a TV show-- to get that stuff, become a This American Life partner.

要收听我们的许多奖励剧集并获得许多其他内容，包括最近我一直在撰写的每周时事通讯，我会告诉您节目幕后发生的事情，并推荐一部电影或电视节目 - 要获得这些内容，请成为“This American Life”合作伙伴。

The main reason we hope you do that, that you become a life partner, is just to support the show and help us keep doing it, and keep doing stories like you heard today, which I really think other people have not covered the same way.

我们希望你这样做，成为你的人生伴侣，主要原因只是为了支持这个节目，帮助我们继续做下去，继续做你今天听到的故事，我真的认为其他人没有以同样的方式报道这些故事。

I hope you agree.

我希望你同意。

You can join at thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.

您可以通过 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners 加入。

That link is also in the show notes.

该链接也在节目注释中。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

And from the start, he has never called our program a radio show.

从一开始，他就从未将我们的节目称为广播节目。

It was a noise demonstration, which I told them from the very beginning.

这是一场噪音示威，我从一开始就告诉了他们。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。