889: There’s Something About Hail Mary - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #889 | June 19, 2026 889: There’s Something About Hail Mary Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 889 集 | 2026 年 6 月 19 日 889：关于《万福玛丽》的一些事情 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Desperate times, my friends, call for desperate measures.

序言： 序言 艾拉·格拉斯 绝望的时刻，我的朋友们，需要采取绝望的措施。

Ora was in college when something mysterious happened.

奥拉（Ora）正在上大学时，发生了一些神秘的事情。

She was at her computer editing.

她正在电脑前编辑。

And I was editing, editing, looking at this computer, and my eyesight started to go blurry.

我一边编辑，一边看着这台电脑，我的视力开始变得模糊。

And I just couldn't really see the computer that well.

我只是无法真正清楚地看到计算机。

And I was like, I need to stop.

我当时想，我需要停下来。

I can't really see anymore.

我实在是看不下去了。

And I was walking home, and everything's just blurry.

我正走在回家的路上，一切都变得模糊。

An eye doctor examined her, said there was nothing wrong with her eyes to cause the blurriness.

眼科医生给她做了检查，说她的眼睛没有任何问题导致视力模糊。

And then-- oh, I remember I had weird heart palpitations.

然后——哦，我记得我有一种奇怪的心悸。

So I went to the doctor to get an EKG, and they were like, you seem fine.

所以我去看医生做了心电图，他们说，你看起来很好。

Maybe you're just in love.

也许你只是恋爱了。

Pause on that.

暂停一下。

That was really a thing that happened to you?

这真的是发生在你身上的事情吗？

You showed up with medical symptoms, and they said, maybe you're in love?

你出现了医疗症状，他们说，也许你恋爱了？

Yeah.

是的。

Ira Glass She was actually falling in love, but she did not think that explained the heart palpitations.

艾拉·格拉斯 她实际上是坠入爱河了，但她不认为这能解释心悸。

She was starting to get the feeling that people were not taking her seriously.

她开始感觉到人们没有认真对待她。

And things were getting worse.

事情变得越来越糟。

It just feels like everything in my body is breaking in a weird way-- terrible fatigue, horrible brain fog, and this feeling in the left side of my brain.

感觉就像我体内的一切都在以一种奇怪的方式崩溃——可怕的疲劳、可怕的脑雾，以及我左脑的这种感觉。

Just, like, the best way I can describe it is I feel like an ice cream scoop has been taken out of my head.

就像，我能描述的最好的方式就是我感觉就像一个冰淇淋勺被从我的脑海中拿走了。

Symptoms like that come and go for two years-- blurry vision.

两年来，这种症状时常出现——视力模糊。

Her legs are weak and tremble.

她的双腿发软，发抖。

Her throat swells up, and it feels like she's being strangled.

她的喉咙肿胀起来，感觉就像被勒死了一样。

And then some stuff is constant.

然后有些东西是不变的。

She's exhausted, but can't sleep-- pressure headaches.

她很累，但睡不着——压力性头痛。

It's hard to think.

很难想象。

This derails her life.

这让她的生活脱轨。

She's always taking time off from work or showing up late in the day.

她总是请假或者迟到。

Can't be on the computer for too long, which limits what jobs she can get.

不能在电脑上呆太久，这限制了她能找到的工作。

She's going to the doctor all the time.

她总是去看医生。

She's too tired to go out with friends at night.

她太累了，晚上不想和朋友出去。

Remember, she's in her 20s.

请记住，她才20多岁。

A tip on Reddit-- of course, Reddit-- leads her to believe that she may have Lyme disease, even though she'd already been tested for Lyme disease, and it came up negative.

Reddit（当然是 Reddit）上的一条提示让她相信自己可能患有莱姆病，尽管她已经接受过莱姆病检测，结果呈阴性。

No Lyme.

没有莱姆病。

A different doctor now tests her again, and this time, she tests positive for Lyme.

现在，另一位医生再次对她进行了检查，这次，她的莱姆病检测呈阳性。

So the doctor prescribes the standard treatment for Lyme, doxycycline, this antibiotic-- doesn't work for her.

因此，医生开了莱姆病的标准治疗方法，即多西环素，这种抗生素对她不起作用。

Then she spends two years on other antibiotics and other drugs.

然后她花了两年时间服用其他抗生素和其他药物。

Those fail, too.

那些也失败了。

Maybe-- it's possible-- this was because she didn't really have Lyme disease.

也许——有可能——这是因为她并没有真正患有莱姆病。

That second test she took for Lyme was not an FDA-approved test.

她进行的第二次莱姆病测试并非 FDA 批准的测试。

This is the nightmarish world of Lyme, this whole debate over who really has it and who just has symptoms.

这就是莱姆病的噩梦世界，关于谁真的患有莱姆病、谁只是有症状的争论。

From Ora's point of view, the question was moot.

从奥拉的角度来看，这个问题毫无意义。

She had the symptoms.

她有这些症状。

She wanted them gone.

她希望他们消失。

Regular doctors weren't doing it, so she started looking at all the other treatments that people try for these symptoms-- and there are a lot of them.

普通医生没有这样做，所以她开始研究人们为这些症状尝试的所有其他治疗方法——而且有很多治疗方法。

She does sessions in a hyperbaric chamber, gets inside an infrared sauna.

她在高压舱里进行训练，进入红外线桑拿房。

I tried this, like, elimination diet, where all I could eat was, like, grapefruit and goat cheese and oatmeal.

我尝试过这种消除饮食法，我所能吃的就是葡萄柚、山羊奶酪和燕麦片。

I tried, like, a very intense regimen of Chinese herbs that a doctor in New York City invented and manufactured himself.

我尝试了一种非常强烈的中草药疗法，这是纽约市的一位医生自己发明和制造的。

But at every turn, you're like, am I being preyed upon?

但每次你都会想，我是不是被欺负了？

I'm spending so much money.

我花了这么多钱。

And this drags on for years.

这种情况持续了很多年。

She's floating in this unpleasant vortex, an interstellar medical space where nobody's got answers.

她漂浮在这个令人不快的漩涡中，这是一个没有人能得到答案的星际医疗空间。

Things get so bad that she leaves her job in the middle of her contract, because it was too hard to make it through the day.

事情变得如此糟糕，以至于她在合同期中辞去了工作，因为这一天太难熬了。

She moves from New York to the Arizona desert, thinking that might help.

她从纽约搬到亚利桑那州沙漠，认为这可能会有所帮助。

And now it's five years since her symptoms first appeared.

现在距离她的症状第一次出现已有五年了。

I was just looking down this road that looked really bleak.

我只是看着这条路，看起来真的很荒凉。

And this was around the time when I was working with a chronic disease life coach, who was starting to say things like, well, Ora, what would it be like if you never get better?

就在我和一位慢性病生活教练一起工作的时候，他开始说，好吧，奥拉，如果你永远不会好起来，那会是什么样子？

Why don't we start thinking about that, like to have radical acceptance?

我们为什么不开始思考这一点，比如获得彻底的接受呢？

And I felt very resistant to that, but teetering on the precipice of giving up.

我对此感到非常抗拒，但又在放弃的边缘摇摇欲坠。

It was at this point that Ora's mom heard about somebody in Ora's situation who supposedly got cured and sent Ora to that doctor.

就在这个时候，奥拉的妈妈听说有人和奥拉的情况一样，据说已经被治愈了，于是就把奥拉送到了那位医生那里。

And he suggested a treatment where he was going to put a common product-- this is something you get at any drugstore for cheap-- into her veins with an IV.

他建议采取一种治疗方法，将一种常见的产品（任何药店都能买到便宜的东西）通过静脉注射注入她的静脉中。

I am not going to tell you what this product is because this is so unproven.

我不会告诉你这个产品是什么，因为它还未经证实。

The Centers for Disease Control has said there is no evidence that this works.

疾病控制中心表示，没有证据表明这种方法有效。

In fact, this is a toxin.

其实，这是一种毒素。

It would do equal damage to healthy and diseased cells.

它会对健康细胞和患病细胞造成同样的损害。

The Infectious Diseases Society of America has warned against trying this because the dangers outweigh these utterly unproven benefits.

美国传染病学会警告不要尝试这样做，因为其危险超过了这些完全未经证实的好处。

But this doctor--

但这位医生——

He thought that would cure it, but he seems very confident.

他以为这样就能治愈，但他看起来非常有信心。

And his explanation for why I hadn't heard of this before was because it's so accessible and so cheap and so affordable, big pharma doesn't want you to have it.

他对为什么我以前没有听说过这个的解释是因为它是如此容易获得、如此便宜、如此实惠，大型制药公司不希望你拥有它。

Now, when someone says an argument like that to you, are you the kind of person who's like, yes, I'm in because I hate big pharma, or are you the kind of person who's like, I don't know, that's what crazy people say?

现在，当有人对你说出这样的论点时，你是那种会说“是的，我加入是因为我讨厌大制药公司”的人，还是那种会说“我不知道，这就是疯狂的人说的话”的人？

I'm both.

我两者都是。

It's like, I'm always open, but I'm also very aware of how crazy it sounds.

就像，我总是持开放态度，但我也很清楚这听起来有多么疯狂。

It did sound crazy to you?

你听起来很疯狂吗？

Ora Yeah, I think anytime a medical doctor is telling you something that sounds like a conspiracy theory, it's warrant for concern.

奥拉是的，我认为任何时候医生告诉你一些听起来像是阴谋论的事情，都值得关注。

Yeah.

是的。

Ora But at this point, I'm like-- I mean, I can't think clearly.

奥拉：但在这一点上，我想——我的意思是，我无法清晰地思考。

I'm so tired.

我好累。

I'm so eager to move on with my life that I'm really feeling willing to try anything.

我非常渴望继续我的生活，所以我真的愿意尝试任何事情。

And I think I didn't do as much research as one might imagine.

我认为我没有做人们想象的那么多研究。

This is Ora's little sister, Aviva, joining the interview.

这是奥拉的妹妹阿维娃，正在接受采访。

And the way I heard about this story is that Aviva works here at the radio show, Aviva DeKornfeld.

我听说这个故事的方式是 Aviva 在广播节目 Aviva DeKornfeld 工作。

She'd watched her sister suffer for years and worried about her.

她多年来看着姐姐受苦，很担心她。

But this treatment?

但这样治疗呢？

I was very scared.

我很害怕。

I mean, I was really fixated on this article that I sent her about this woman who had died, who did the IV and then, within 36 hours, was dead.

我的意思是，我真的很着迷于我发给她的这篇文章，内容是关于这个已经去世的女人，她做了静脉注射，然后在 36 小时内就死了。

And I thought, doesn't seem worth it.

我想，似乎不值得。

It's true.

这是真的。

The danger of this particular treatment is that it might kill you with, again, no solid studies showing that it works.

这种特殊疗法的危险在于，它可能会杀死你，而且没有可靠的研究表明它有效。

And when you showed that to her, what did she say?

当你把这个给她看时，她说什么？

She was freaked out by it, obviously, but was just kind of like, the current state and how I feel also isn't sustainable.

显然，她被吓坏了，但就是觉得，目前的状态和我的感觉也是不可持续的。

My preference would be to have a sister who is sick and alive, rather than a dead sister.

我更喜欢有一个生病但还活着的妹妹，而不是一个死去的妹妹。

It's like you prefer to have a sister who is sick and alive than one who is dead.

这就像你更喜欢有一个生病但还活着的妹妹，而不是一个死去的妹妹。

And it's-- not to be overly dramatic, I certainly didn't want to die, but I was like, I don't want to be the sister who's sick and alive.

不想太戏剧化，我当然不想死，但我想，我不想成为那个生病但还活着的妹妹。

This really sucks.

这真的很糟糕。

And my current state is just so unpleasant and so confused and exhausted, it was just reaching a point of this is not a way to really live.

我现在的状态实在是太不愉快、太困惑、太疲惫了，已经到了不能真正生活的地步。

If there was a chance it could work, I wanted to try it.

如果有机会的话，我想尝试一下。

Yeah, total Hail Mary.

是的，万福玛丽。

Ira Glass So, fully knowing that this could kill her, she got the IVs, four of them over a few weeks.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 因此，她完全知道这可能会杀死她，所以她接受了静脉注射，几周内注射了四次。

And this is not really the result I would have predicted.

这并不是我真正预料到的结果。

Her symptoms went away-- the ice cream scoop in her head, the brain fog, the fatigue, the achiness, all of it.

她的症状消失了——脑子里的冰淇淋勺、脑雾、疲劳、疼痛，所有这些都消失了。

Maybe the IV treatment had something to do with this.

也许静脉注射治疗与此有关。

Maybe it didn't.

也许没有。

I've now spoken with three Lyme experts and researchers who could not explain this result.

我现在已经与三位莱姆病专家和研究人员进行了交谈，他们无法解释这一结果。

They said this is the kind of thing that you would want to do a proper scientific study on because the world is filled with things that seem to work in one isolated case and then really don't prove out.

他们说，这是一种你想要进行适当科学研究的事情，因为世界上充满了似乎在一个孤立的案例中起作用但实际上却无法证明的事情。

I also managed to reach Ora's doctor, and the one thing that he said to me in an email was that he was convinced that it was not the IV that ended her symptoms, but one of the other things that he tried with her.

我还设法联系了奥拉的医生，他在一封电子邮件中对我说的一件事是，他确信不是静脉注射结束了她的症状，而是他为她尝试过的其他事情之一。

He'd given her other supplements and pills.

他给了她其他补品和药片。

And then he ghosted me without saying what that thing was that he thought worked, wouldn't reply to repeated emails and texts.

然后他鬼鬼祟祟地告诉我，没有说他认为有效的东西是什么，也不会回复重复的电子邮件和短信。

And Ora, when she looks back on it now, she thinks it's kind of nuts.

而奥拉，现在回想起来，她觉得这有点疯狂。

She's glad she was cured, for sure, but to be that desperate that you feel like you have no other choice so you throw everything you have into something that not only seems unlikely to succeed sometimes is genuinely terrifying.

当然，她很高兴自己被治愈了，但绝望到你觉得自己别无选择，所以你把你拥有的一切投入到有时不仅看起来不太可能成功的事情上，这真的很可怕。

That is not a place anybody ever wants to be, like this IV treatment.

这不是任何人都想去的地方，就像静脉注射治疗一样。

It doesn't seem like a good idea.

这似乎不是一个好主意。

You can't look back on it and be like, well, given the information we had at the time, we made the best decision we could.

你不能回首过去，然后说，鉴于我们当时掌握的信息，我们做出了最好的决定。

It's like, no, that was a bad idea.

就好像，不，那是个坏主意。

And so if it turns out bad, then it's like, you have no one to blame but yourself.

所以，如果结果很糟糕，那就好像，除了你自己，你没有人可以责怪。

But if it turns out good-- and I guess that's what the Hail Mary is, is a bad idea that has the potential to work.

但如果结果是好的——我想这就是万福玛利亚的意思，那就是一个有潜力的坏主意。

Today on our program, people in bad situations with no other options going for crazy long shots they hope against hope are going to fix the impossible situations they found themselves in.

今天在我们的节目中，处于困境的人们在没有其他选择的情况下，通过疯狂的远射来解决他们发现自己所处的不可能的情况。

Our entire episode today, my friends, happens in the fourth quarter, seconds left in the game, after coming from 29 points behind, far, far from the basket, throwing a ball that really looks like it's going to be short.

我的朋友们，我们今天的整个情节发生在第四节，比赛还剩几秒钟时，在落后 29 分的情况下，距离篮筐很远很远的地方，投出了一个看起来确实会很短的球。

When does that ever work out?

什么时候才能实现呢？

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

This American Life, Act 1, 12 Weeks Notice.

《美国生活》，第一幕，提前 12 周通知。

So some jobs, the entire premise of the job is that every day, you're going to go up against impossible odds, on a mission that is probably not going to succeed.

所以有些工作，工作的整个前提是，你每天都会面临不可能的困难，完成一个可能不会成功的任务。

And then, you have to go to work, throw yourself into it, try to make it happen, day after day.

然后，你必须去工作，全身心投入，日复一日地努力实现它。

There's a new series by our coworkers at Serial about people like that.

我们 Serial 的同事推出了一个关于这样的人的新系列。

It's about defense attorneys who work with death row inmates.

这是关于与死囚一起工作的辩护律师的。

In Texas, where this particular story takes place, these kinds of appeals to get people off death row fail 94% of the time.

在这个故事发生的得克萨斯州，这种让死囚逃出监狱的呼吁 94% 的情况下都会失败。

And hearing this series, for all the news stories and movies that I've seen about lawyers in that job, it showed sides of it that really surprised me.

听到这个系列，对于我看过的有关该职位律师的所有新闻故事和电影，它展示了真正令我惊讶的一面。

I don't think I really got some things about the people who do that job and what that job is, until I heard this series.

在我听到这个系列之前，我认为我并没有真正了解从事这项工作的人员以及这项工作是什么。

And so they allowed us to pull a few scenes from the first two episodes to play for you here so you can get a sense of this.

因此，他们允许我们从前两集中提取一些场景在这里为您播放，以便您可以了解这一点。

We'll start at the top of the show.

我们将从节目的顶部开始。

Here's how they open the series.

这是他们如何打开这个系列的。

Maurice Chammah of the Marshall Project is the host.

马歇尔计划的莫里斯·查玛 (Maurice Chammah) 担任主持人。

In the fall of 2024, a criminal defense lawyer got the kind of phone call that most lawyers can only dream about.

2024 年秋天，一名刑事辩护律师接到了大多数律师梦寐以求的电话。

It concerned a client of his, a guy named David Wood, one of Texas's most notorious serial killers.

这件事涉及他的一个客户，一个名叫大卫·伍德的人，他是德克萨斯州最臭名昭著的连环杀手之一。

He was sitting on death row, months away from his execution.

他坐在死囚牢房里，距离行刑还有几个月的时间。

I would like to discuss with you something about David Wood.

我想和你讨论一些关于大卫·伍德的事情。

While I don't condone what has happened in that case, the fact is I don't like--

虽然我不宽恕那种情况下发生的事情，但事实是我不喜欢——

The man on the phone, George Hall, thought something corrupt had gone down in David Wood's trial.

接电话的人乔治·霍尔 (George Hall) 认为大卫·伍德 (David Wood) 的审判中出现了腐败问题。

It had happened more than 30 years ago, but for 30 years, he'd said nothing, mostly because he was afraid to.

这已经是三十多年前的事了，但三十年来，他什么也没说，主要是因为他不敢说。

For those 30 years he'd been on parole, he worried if he aggravated the authorities, they might find some way to send him back to prison.

30年来他一直处于假释状态，他担心如果他激怒了当局，他们可能会想办法把他送回监狱。

But now his parole had ended, and George Hall was ready to tell his story, which he'd eventually put into a sworn declaration.

但现在他的假释已经结束，乔治·霍尔准备讲述他的故事，他最终将其写入宣誓声明中。

That story goes like this.

故事是这样的。

Back in the late '80s, George Hall and David Wood were locked up together at the Eastham Unit in Texas.

早在 80 年代末，乔治·霍尔 (George Hall) 和大卫·伍德 (David Wood) 被一起关押在德克萨斯州的伊斯特汉姆监狱 (Eastham Unit)。

George Hall was in for murder.

乔治·霍尔因谋杀罪入狱。

David Wood was in for rape.

大卫·伍德因强奸罪入狱。

They weren't particularly close.

他们并不是特别亲密。

David Wood was quiet, didn't talk much, but when he did, George says, it was mainly to complain about how the police in his hometown of El Paso were harassing him, investigating him for a series of murders.

大卫·伍德很安静，话不多，但乔治说，当他说话时，主要是抱怨家乡埃尔帕索的警察如何骚扰他，调查他的一系列谋杀案。

Basically, what he said was El Paso was trying to pin it on him.

基本上，他所说的是埃尔帕索试图将责任归咎于他。

David Wood insisted he had nothing to do with those murders.

大卫·伍德坚称他与这些谋杀案无关。

George thought, maybe he didn't, maybe he did.

乔治想，也许他没有，也许他做到了。

Either way, he didn't really care.

不管怎样，他其实并不关心。

Eventually, George and David Wood were separated, moved to different facilities hundreds of miles apart.

最终，乔治和大卫伍德被分开，搬到相距数百英里的不同设施。

One day, George says, he's in the prison library, ready to go to lunch, when two officers come in and tell him to pack his stuff.

乔治说，有一天，他在监狱图书馆准备去吃午饭，这时两名警官进来告诉他收拾东西。

I said, well, where am I going?

我说，好吧，我要去哪里？

They wouldn't tell me.

他们不肯告诉我。

So next thing I know, I'm on a bus ride down to El Paso.

接下来我就知道，我正乘坐巴士前往埃尔帕索。

A few hours later, George finds himself in a holding cell in the El Paso County Jail.

几个小时后，乔治发现自己被关在埃尔帕索县监狱的一间牢房里。

Two other guys join him in there.

另外两个人也加入了他的行列。

George recognizes them both as guys who had celled with David Wood.

乔治认出他们都是曾与大卫·伍德一起关过牢房的人。

And one of them says to the group, they have an opportunity.

其中一人对大家说，他们有机会。

They can all get money maybe, or less prison time.

也许他们都能得到钱，或者少坐牢。

All they have to do is snitch on David Wood.

他们所要做的就是告密大卫·伍德。

Soon enough, they're escorted out of the cell and into a car, and George says, that's when the cops start rolling out the red carpet.

很快，他们被护送出牢房并进入一辆汽车，乔治说，就在那时警察开始铺红地毯。

They give us the tour, a scenic drive up the mountainside, a look across the Rio Grande, look into old Mexico and this and that and whatever.

他们带我们游览，开车上山，风景如画，俯瞰格兰德河，看看古老的墨西哥以及这个那个等等。

And I'm sitting there, thinking to myself, we're not handcuffed.

我坐在那里，心里想，我们没有被戴上手铐。

What if we jump out and run?

如果我们跳出去跑怎么办？

[LAUGHTER] What are they going to do then, you know?

[笑声] 然后他们会做什么，你知道吗？

But he sits tight.

但他坐稳了。

George says they're taken to a hamburger joint for lunch and then, ultimately, to a police station.

乔治说，他们被带到一家汉堡店吃午餐，然后最终被带到警察局。

The guys are offered coffee, snacks, cigarettes, and then they're ushered into a room with detectives.

他们为这些人提供了咖啡、零食和香烟，然后他们被带进一个有侦探的房间。

Of course, they got files everywhere.

当然，他们到处都有文件。

They got David Woods's name plastered all over everything.

他们把大卫·伍兹的名字贴在了所有东西上。

They got arrows and lines going to this, this, dates wrote down.

他们有箭头和线条指向这个，这个，写下日期。

Files are sitting there.

文件就放在那里。

They start handing us files.

他们开始向我们提供文件。

Look at this.

看看这个。

We got this on him.

我们在他身上得到了这个。

We got this on him.

我们在他身上得到了这个。

He did this.

他做到了。

We know this, this, this, this, and going through all facts and stuff there, this narrative-driven shit.

我们知道这个，这个，这个，这个，并浏览了所有的事实和东西，这些叙事驱动的狗屎。

And you're reading what they got.

你正在阅读他们得到的内容。

And then after that, they go, you know anything?

然后他们就走了，你知道吗？

Well, I don't know a goddamn thing.

好吧，我他妈的什么都不知道。

All they had to do is ask me at the prison unit.

他们所要做的就是在监狱里问我。

I was madder than shit about it.

我对此感到非常生气。

As for the other two guys-- George Hall They go back.

至于另外两个人——乔治·霍尔 他们回去了。

They're talking to each other, but it's in a real low tone.

他们正在互相交谈，但语气很低。

And they basically don't even want to talk to me about nothing.

而且他们基本上什么都不想和我说。

So I knew to myself right then and there, they're going to say whatever they want them to say.

所以我当时就知道，他们会说他们想说的话。

They're going to tell the police that David Wood confessed to multiple murders.

他们要告诉警方，大卫·伍德承认犯有多起谋杀案。

But George is sure these guys don't actually know anything about David Wood.

但乔治确信这些人实际上对大卫·伍德一无所知。

He would have heard about it already.

他应该已经听说过这件事了。

Plus, he knows they're not above lying.

另外，他知道他们不会撒谎。

George returns to prison.

乔治回到监狱。

Not long after, he writes to an El Paso prosecutor about, quote, "improprieties that I am aware of." He says he knows the informants are fabricating their stories.

不久之后，他写信给埃尔帕索的一名检察官，援引“我所知道的不当行为”。他说他知道线人正在编造故事。

The prosecutor never writes back, but the letter does make its way into David Wood's case file.

检察官从未回信，但这封信确实进入了大卫·伍德的案件档案。

Eventually, David Wood does go on trial for the murders.

最终，大卫·伍德因谋杀案接受审判。

George is never called to testify, but the two other guys become the star witnesses for the prosecution.

乔治从未被传唤出庭作证，但另外两个人成为检方的明星证人。

The jury convicts David Wood, and he's sentenced to death.

陪审团判定大卫·伍德有罪，他被判处死刑。

Court documents show that after the trial, one of the informants received $13,000 in reward money.

法庭文件显示，庭审结束后，其中一名举报人获得了1.3万美元的赏金。

The other got his own capital murder charge dropped.

另一个人的谋杀罪名被撤销。

I identified more than a dozen officers, detectives, and supervisors who were involved in David Wood's case.

我确认了参与大卫·伍德案件的十几名警官、侦探和主管。

I wanted to ask them about George Hall.

我想向他们询问有关乔治·霍尔的事情。

Some were dead, one had dementia, one hung up on me, and others never responded.

有些人已经死了，一个人患有痴呆症，一个人挂断了我的电话，还有一些人从未回复过我。

But the one detective who did speak to me extensively about the case called George's whole story, quote, "preposterous." George and the two others were brought in together and interviewed by the El Paso Police.

但一位与我广泛谈论此案的侦探称乔治的整个故事“荒谬”。乔治和另外两人被带到一起接受埃尔帕索警方的讯问。

That's documented in court records.

这记录在法庭记录中。

But the detective said he couldn't imagine his colleagues taking prisoners out for a joyride and showing them case materials in order to get them to snitch.

但侦探说，他无法想象他的同事会带囚犯出去兜风，并向他们展示案件材料，以便让他们告密。

For more than 30 years after David Wood's trial, George kept tabs on the case, googled it from time to time.

大卫·伍德受审 30 多年后，乔治一直密切关注此案，时不时用谷歌搜索。

And in 2024, George saw that David Wood was scheduled for execution, and George was finally off parole, so if he was going to speak up, it was now or never.

2024 年，乔治看到大卫·伍德将被处决，乔治终于获得假释，所以如果他要站出来说话，那就是现在，否则永远不会。

I don't know if it's going to make a difference whether he gets executed or not.

我不知道他是否被处决是否会产生影响。

That's not the question.

这不是问题。

That's not what I got to live with.

这不是我必须忍受的。

What I have to live with is, can I live with myself, knowing that I know two people fabricated testimony to get a guy executed, and I don't say anything about it?

我必须忍受的是，我知道我知道有两个人捏造证词来处决一个人，而我却什么也没说，我还能忍受自己吗？

Not long after George Hall called David Wood's lawyer, David Wood's lawyer emailed me, asking me to write about the case.

乔治·霍尔给大卫·伍德的律师打电话后不久，大卫·伍德的律师给我发了电子邮件，要求我写下这个案子。

I wasn't surprised.

我并不感到惊讶。

I'm a journalist at a nonprofit called the Marshall Project, where we cover the criminal justice system.

我是一个名为“马歇尔项目”的非营利组织的记者，我们在那里报道刑事司法系统。

I'm the death penalty guy on staff, as gloomy as that sounds.

我是工作人员中负责死刑的人，尽管听起来很悲观。

But I was surprised by who was asking-- Greg Wiercioch.

但令我惊讶的是问这个问题的人是 Greg Wiercioch。

I know Greg Wiercioch as a big deal in capital defense work.

我知道 Greg Wiercioch 在首都防御工作中是个大人物。

He's been defending people on death row for decades, and he even stopped one execution by winning at the Supreme Court.

几十年来，他一直在为死囚辩护，甚至在最高法院获胜后停止了一次处决。

I'd asked him for an interview years ago for a book I was writing on the death penalty.

几年前，我曾因我正在写的一本关于死刑的书而邀请他接受采访。

He said no. He rarely spoke to reporters.

他说不。他很少接受记者采访。

But now here he was in my inbox.

但现在他在我的收件箱里。

His email was polite and panicky.

他的电子邮件既礼貌又惊慌。

David Wood's execution date was only 17 weeks away.

距离大卫·伍德的处决日期只有 17 周了。

He wanted me to write about the case and all the problems he saw with it.

他希望我写下这个案例以及他所看到的所有问题。

I was pretty skeptical.

我很怀疑。

I did the hard-hitting research of reading the Wikipedia page about David Wood and, woof, six women and girls, one as young as 14, killed and buried in the desert outside of El Paso.

我做了一项强有力的研究，阅读了关于大卫·伍德（David Wood）的维基百科页面，以及六名妇女和女孩（其中一名年仅 14 岁）被杀害并埋葬在埃尔帕索郊外的沙漠中。

David Wood even got one of those spooky serial killer nicknames, the Desert Killer.

大卫·伍德甚至获得了那些令人毛骨悚然的连环杀手的绰号之一：沙漠杀手。

Greg wrote to me that David Wood was innocent, that he didn't commit any of these murders.

格雷格写信给我说大卫·伍德是无辜的，他没有犯下任何谋杀案。

And sure, I did find George Hall's story compelling, but even if those informants were lying at the trial, that doesn't mean David Wood didn't do it.

当然，我确实发现乔治·霍尔的故事很引人注目，但即使这些线人在审判中撒谎，也不意味着大卫·伍德没有这么做。

Plus, in order to do the story Greg was pitching, I'd have to reinvestigate it from scratch, all six murders in a matter of weeks.

另外，为了完成格雷格所推销的故事，我必须从头开始重新调查，在几周内完成所有六起谋杀案。

That sounded impossible.

这听起来不可能。

But I was curious about what Greg was up to, his overall project, trying to sow enough doubt at the last minute in order to save his client's life.

但我很好奇格雷格在做什么，他的整个项目，试图在最后一刻播下足够的怀疑，以挽救他客户的生命。

I'd seen executions get stayed for procedural claims about execution methods or a defendant's mental fitness.

我曾见过因有关处决方法或被告心理健康状况的程序性主张而暂停执行死刑。

But this wasn't just a claim about an unfair trial.

但这不仅仅是对不公平审判的指控。

Greg was saying David Wood didn't do it at all, and now, somehow, he's supposed to prove that in a few months.

格雷格说大卫·伍德根本没有这么做，现在，不知何故，他应该在几个月内证明这一点。

So I told Greg, I'm not going to do the big feature story on David Wood you're imagining.

所以我告诉格雷格，我不会做你想象的关于大卫·伍德的大故事。

But what if I follow you around, be there with a microphone as you strategize with your team, hunt for witnesses, and try to persuade people of David Wood's innocence with the clock ticking?

但是，如果我跟着你，在你与你的团队制定战略、寻找目击者并试图在时间紧迫的情况下让人们相信大卫·伍德的清白时，我会拿着麦克风陪伴你，结果会怎样呢？

Greg had a million reasons to say no. I'm still kind of shocked that he said yes.

格雷格有一百万个理由拒绝。他说是的，我仍然感到震惊。

So that's the premise.

这就是前提。

Maurice is going to follow this defense team.

莫里斯将跟随这支防守队。

And before we get to some of what he witnesses doing that, we should run through the evidence against David Wood in this murder conviction.

在我们了解他目睹的一些事情之前，我们应该回顾一下大卫·伍德在这起谋杀案中对他不利的证据。

Maurice, thank you for talking me through this right now.

莫里斯，谢谢你现在跟我讲这件事。

Just a quick heads up for listeners that these crimes are pretty awful and might not be right for every listener or for children to listen to.

请快速提醒听众，这些罪行非常可怕，可能不适合每个听众或儿童聆听。

Maurice, let's just run through it.

莫里斯，让我们来回顾一下。

How solid was the evidence that got David Wood the death penalty?

让大卫·伍德被判处死刑的证据有多可靠？

So the person who really walked us through the evidence was a detective who worked on the case.

所以真正带我们了解证据的人是一位负责此案的侦探。

His name is John Guerrero.

他的名字叫约翰·格雷罗。

He was with the El Paso Police Department, and he's retired now.

他曾在埃尔帕索警察局工作，现已退休。

And he invited my Serial producer, Alvin Melathe, and I to his house in El Paso.

他邀请了我的连续剧制片人阿尔文·梅拉西和我去他位于埃尔帕索的家。

He introduced himself as Johnny.

他介绍自己是约翰尼。

It's one of the biggest cases of his career, and he seemed to like talking about it.

这是他职业生涯中最大的案件之一，他似乎很喜欢谈论它。

You can ask me, is there any doubt in your mind that this is the man that committed this heinous crimes against these little girls?

你可以问我，你心里有没有怀疑过，这个人就是对这些小女孩犯下如此滔天罪行的人？

None whatsoever.

一点也没有。

None.

没有任何。

None.

没有任何。

So this begins in the summer of 1987, and there are two county employees working in the desert outside of El Paso.

事情要从 1987 年夏天开始，有两名县雇员在埃尔帕索郊外的沙漠里工作。

And Johnny says they saw a leg sticking out of the sand.

约翰尼说他们看到一条腿从沙子里伸出来。

The police checked it out, and they found out that it was a woman named Rosa Maria Casio.

警方检查后发现，这名女子名叫罗莎·玛丽亚·卡西欧。

She was in her 20s.

她当时20多岁。

And then they searched the area around her, and pretty quickly, they find a second body about 50 feet away.

然后他们搜查了她周围的区域，很快，他们在大约 50 英尺外发现了第二具尸体。

It's a woman named Karen Baker.

这是一个名叫凯伦·贝克的女人。

She's 20, and she's a mother of three young children.

她今年 20 岁，是三个孩子的母亲。

And then over the next few months, they find a total of six bodies in this area of the desert.

在接下来的几个月里，他们在沙漠的这个地区总共发现了六具尸体。

Two of the victims are girls in middle school, and then their ages run up into their early 20s.

其中两名受害者是初中女生，年龄都在20岁出头。

Ugh, middle school kids.

呃，中学生。

Maurice Chammah I know.

我知道莫里斯·查玛。

It's really-- it's awful.

这真的是——太可怕了。

The detail that really stuck out to me was that they could identify the girl who'd been in eighth grade in part because they found her T-shirt where all the other kids had signed their names on the last day of school.

真正让我印象深刻的细节是，他们能够识别出那个八年级女孩的身份，部分原因是他们在她的 T 恤上发现了所有其他孩子在上学的最后一天签名的名字。

And--

还有——

Ugh.

呃。

Maurice Chammah --it turns out that that girl's mother becomes a real leading force in this case, and she pushes Johnny to see all of these murders as connected, first of all, and then to go talk to other middle school kids to try to get clues or tips from them about who might have done it.

莫里斯·查玛（Maurice Chammah）——事实证明，那个女孩的母亲成为了这起案件中真正的主导力量，她敦促约翰尼首先将所有这些谋杀案视为相互关联，然后去与其他中学生交谈，试图从他们那里获得有关谁可能是凶手的线索或提示。

And in fact, they do get clues.

事实上，他们确实得到了线索。

Let's play a little bit from the podcast of where you get into that.

让我们从您进入的播客中播放一些内容。

We started getting information from several people about this white guy that was going around in a beige truck and also in a motorcycle.

我们开始从几个人那里得到关于这个白人的信息，他开着一辆米色卡车和一辆摩托车四处走动。

El Paso is majority Hispanic, so this detail, a white guy, stood out to Johnny.

埃尔帕索的人口主要是西班牙裔，所以这个细节，一个白人，对约翰尼来说很突出。

The kids say this guy was always around.

孩子们说这个人一直在身边。

Giving weeds to them and buying them beer and that kind of stuff.

给他们杂草，给他们买啤酒之类的东西。

And then, also, we were told that he was real focused on these young girls, real young girls, 15, 16-year-old little girls.

然后，我们还被告知他真正关注的是这些年轻女孩，真正的年轻女孩，15、16 岁的小女孩。

And I don't remember who it was, but somebody gave us this nickname, Skeeter.

我不记得是谁，但有人给我们起了这个绰号：斯基特。

In old tapes from this investigation, you hear this name come up a lot, Skeeter.

在这次调查的旧录音带中，你经常听到这个名字出现，斯基特。

Did you ever hear any of the kids mention a guy by the name of Skeeter that had offered them some marijuana or something like that?

你有没有听过孩子们提到过一个叫斯基特的人给他们提供了一些大麻或类似的东西？

You knew him by a nickname?

你是通过昵称认识他的吗？

Carla Bombach By Skeeter.

斯基特的卡拉·邦巴赫。

And then we started asking people about this guy, Skeeter, Skeeter, Skeeter.

然后我们开始向人们询问这个人，斯基特，斯基特，斯基特。

A Skeeter or a Scooter?

斯基特还是踏板车？

Angela Wisniewski Skeeter.

安吉拉·维斯涅夫斯基·斯基特。

That was that guy in the truck.

那个人就是卡车里的那个人。

Yeah.

是的。

John Guerrero Somebody said, well, Skeeter is a guy that just got out of prison.

约翰·格雷罗 有人说，斯基特是一个刚出狱的人。

David Wood, I guess.

我猜是大卫·伍德。

John Guerrero --David Wood.

约翰·格雷罗——大卫·伍德。

Of course, we run his name.

当然，我们以他的名字命名。

The mechanics of how Skeeter and David Wood get linked are hazy.

斯基特和大卫·伍德之间的联系机制尚不清楚。

In the recordings I listened to, most of the kids had no idea who Skeeter was.

在我听的录音中，大多数孩子都不知道斯基特是谁。

And the ones who say Skeeter was David Wood, it's not clear if they put that together themselves or if they were repeating the connection that the cops made.

那些说斯基特是大卫·伍德的人，不清楚他们是否自己将这些联系起来，或者他们是否在重复警察所建立的联系。

In any case, when Johnny learns more about David Wood's criminal record, he discovers a rap sheet that's long and egregious, multiple sexual crimes against girls, one as young as 12.

无论如何，当约翰尼更多地了解大卫·伍德的犯罪记录时，他发现了一份冗长而令人震惊的犯罪记录，其中涉及多起针对女孩的性犯罪，其中一名年仅 12 岁。

And the timeline tracks.

以及时间线的轨迹。

David Wood had been released from prison less than a month before the first of these victims disappeared.

距离第一名受害者失踪不到一个月，大卫·伍德刚刚出狱。

So I mean, right away, the antennas go up.

所以我的意思是，天线立即升起。

The red lights start blinking and what have you, you know?

红灯开始闪烁，你知道什么？

OK, so that is what makes David Wood Johnny's prime suspect.

好吧，这就是大卫·伍德·约翰尼的头号嫌疑人。

But Maurice, as you say in the show, just having a nickname and a history of crimes, even very disturbing crimes, that is actually not enough to put him away for six murders.

但是莫里斯，正如你在剧中所说，仅仅有一个绰号和犯罪史，甚至是非常令人不安的犯罪记录，实际上还不足以让他因六起谋杀案而被判处死刑。

They also get the two jailhouse witnesses that you talked about in the show's opening.

他们还得到了你在节目开头提到的两名监狱证人。

And then there's one bit of physical evidence that connects David Wood to the crime.

还有一点物证将大卫·伍德与犯罪行为联系起来。

Yeah, it was surprising to me that there was only one bit of physical evidence.

是的，令我惊讶的是只有一点物证。

It's a set of orange fibers, probably from a blanket.

这是一组橙色纤维，可能来自毯子。

And these are threads that came from David Wood's vacuum cleaner, like the bag in his vacuum cleaner.

这些是来自大卫·伍德的吸尘器的线，就像他的吸尘器中的袋子一样。

And then they were also found with one of the victims' bodies in the desert.

然后他们还在沙漠中发现了一名受害者的尸体。

And then the other big thing that Johnny's got-- and this is probably the most substantial thing that connects Wood to these murders-- is this woman named Judith Kelling.

然后约翰尼得到的另一件大事——这可能是将伍德与这些谋杀案联系起来的最重要的事情——是这个名叫朱迪思·凯林的女人。

Tell her story.

讲她的故事。

Judith Kelling was a sex worker in El Paso in the '80s, and she's deceased now, but she came forward and did a recorded interview with Johnny.

朱迪思·凯林 (Judith Kelling) 是 80 年代埃尔帕索的一名性工作者，现已去世，但她挺身而出，对约翰尼进行了录音采访。

Today's date is Monday, November the 16th, 1987.

今天的日期是 1987 年 11 月 16 日星期一。

She came forward shortly after some of the women were found in the desert.

在沙漠中发现一些妇女后不久，她挺身而出。

And she said she'd been hitchhiking, and a white guy picked her up with his truck.

她说她搭便车，一个白人用卡车接了她。

And he wouldn't take her to where she wanted to go, but instead invited her to do cocaine with him out in the desert.

他不会带她去她想去的地方，而是邀请她和他一起去沙漠吸食可卡因。

So he drives her out there and pulls out a shovel and also some rope.

于是他把她带到那里，拿出一把铲子和一些绳子。

And he took the shovel, and he started digging.

他拿起铲子，开始挖掘。

And he came back.

他回来了。

He got the blanket, and he told me-- he took me-- he made me get out the truck.

他拿到了毯子，然后告诉我——他带了我——他让我下了卡车。

I didn't want to.

我不想。

I told him, just take me back.

我告诉他，带我回去吧。

He kept calling me a bitch.

他一直骂我是婊子。

He goes, don't turn around, bitch.

他走了，别回头，贱人。

And I was getting panicky and scared because I thought he was going to try something with me.

我变得惊慌和害怕，因为我以为他会和我一起尝试一些事情。

Judith Kelling says that he tied her up and raped her, and there are a lot of creepy details, like he kept telling her to say that she was 14 years old.

朱迪思·凯林说他把她绑了起来并强奸了她，还有很多令人毛骨悚然的细节，比如他一直告诉她说她只有14岁。

And then he hears some voices nearby and gets spooked, and he leaves her out in the middle of the desert to find her own way home.

然后他听到附近有一些声音，感到害怕，他把她留在沙漠中央，让她自己寻找回家的路。

The police give Judith a photo lineup, and she identifies David Wood as the guy.

警方给了朱迪思一张照片，她认出大卫·伍德就是那个人。

And she takes the police to where she was raped, and Johnny tells me that it's about 50 yards from where the murder victims were found.

她带警察去了她被强奸的地方，约翰尼告诉我，那里距离发现谋杀受害者的地方大约 50 码。

And then, as you explained in the show, the police arrest Wood for the rape.

然后，正如你在节目中所解释的，警方以强奸罪逮捕了伍德。

He denies it, but he's convicted, and he goes to prison.

他否认这一点，但他被定罪并入狱。

And then, with him in prison, Johnny tries to connect him to the six murders.

然后，当他入狱时，约翰尼试图将他与六起谋杀案联系起来。

Yeah, and it takes a long time.

是的，而且需要很长时间。

But the jury is convinced, and they only deliberate for, like, 90 minutes before sentencing him to death.

但陪审团深信不疑，他们只考虑了大约 90 分钟就判处他死刑。

And so in your podcast, after you explain all that background, then your series really gets going, and you really get into the meat of it.

因此，在你的播客中，在你解释了所有背景之后，你的系列才真正开始，你才真正进入它的核心。

And we follow the defense attorneys, led by Greg Wiercioch, as they try all kinds of different tactics and meet with all sorts of people to try to stop David Wood's execution.

我们跟随格雷格·维尔西奇（Greg Wiercioch）领导的辩护律师，他们尝试各种不同的策略，并会见各种各样的人，试图阻止大卫·伍德被处决。

They have just 12 weeks.

他们只有12周的时间。

They go to a district attorney.

他们去找地方检察官。

They go to a TV news person.

他们去找一位电视新闻记者。

They hear about somebody who thinks their dad may have committed at least some of the six murders, and they have to decide if that is worth running down.

他们听说有人认为他们的父亲可能至少犯下了六起谋杀案中的一些，他们必须决定这是否值得追究。

I have to say, I was really surprised at how many different roads they could go down and had to choose between.

我不得不说，我真的很惊讶他们可以走多少条不同的路，并且必须在其中做出选择。

Yeah, he had a lot of them to choose between.

是的，他有很多选择。

Greg actually got the original list of police suspects, and there were 36 of them on it.

格雷格实际上拿到了警方嫌疑人的原始名单，上面有36人。

And some of them did seem promising.

其中一些看起来确实很有前途。

So there was one man who failed a polygraph test about the murders, which I know those are unreliable, but he did fail it.

有一个人没有通过有关谋杀案的测谎仪测试，我知道这些测试不可靠，但他确实没有通过。

So Greg's team runs that one down, and Alvin and I had to actually knock on some of these people's doors, too, which we describe in the show.

所以格雷格的团队把这个关掉了，阿尔文和我也必须真正敲开其中一些人的门，我们在节目中对此进行了描述。

Basically, Greg's theory on this case is that the cops had tunnel vision.

基本上，格雷格对此案的理论是警察目光狭隘。

They were under all this pressure to solve the case.

他们承受着破案的巨大压力。

The victims' families were demonstrating in public.

遇难者家属公开示威。

And so they took every bit of evidence and massaged it to fit David Wood or discarded it if it fit someone else.

因此，他们收集了所有证据，并对其进行了修改以适合大卫·伍德，或者如果适合其他人则将其丢弃。

And so, with all that in mind, let's just pick up with your show at this scene that happens in your second episode.

因此，考虑到所有这些，让我们继续看第二集中发生的这一场景。

Greg has just been to the courthouse to reexamine some of the physical evidence in the trial, the orange fibers.

格雷格刚刚去法院重新审查了审判中的一些物证，即橙色纤维。

It is 50 days before David Wood's execution is scheduled to take place.

距离大卫·伍德的处决日期还有 50 天。

On the way out of the courthouse, Greg says he wants to grab one more thing from a clerk.

在离开法院的路上，格雷格说他想从办事员那里再拿一件东西。

He asks for any and all criminal records related to a guy named Michael Plyler.

他要求提供与迈克尔·普莱勒有关的所有犯罪记录。

This is a new name to me.

这对我来说是一个新名字。

It wasn't on the El Paso PD's list of 36 suspects.

它并不在埃尔帕索警察局的 36 名嫌疑人名单上。

But the other night, Greg came across Plyler's name in old state records, along with a picture of a truck, which looked a lot like David Wood's truck.

但有一天晚上，格雷格在旧的州记录中发现了普莱勒的名字，以及一张卡车的照片，它看起来很像大卫·伍德的卡车。

So Greg wondered, could this all be a case of mistaken identity?

于是格雷格想知道，这一切是否都是身份错误的情况？

He wants to look through Plyler's criminal files to see if there's anything in there that might tie him to the case beyond the truck, like if he went by the nickname Skeeter.

他想翻阅普莱勒的犯罪档案，看看里面是否有任何东西可能将他与卡车之外的案件联系起来，比如他的昵称“斯基特”。

Because Skeeter is this nickname that keeps popping up throughout the case as David Wood, but David Wood's never used that as a nickname.

因为斯基特这个昵称在整个案件中不断出现，就像大卫·伍德一样，但大卫·伍德从未使用过这个昵称。

So it seems a bit odd that that would be a name he would be giving to people.

所以他给人们起这个名字似乎有点奇怪。

This depends on believing David Wood about the nickname, which Greg does.

这取决于大卫·伍德相信这个绰号，格雷格也相信。

But either way, this Plyler deep dive seems to me like a real long shot.

但无论如何，普莱勒的这次深入研究对我来说似乎是一个真正的远景。

And it reminds me of a criticism I've heard a lot, mostly from prosecutors and judges.

这让我想起了我经常听到的批评，其中大部分来自检察官和法官。

They say, lawyers like Greg have years to do this stuff, but they wait until the last minute, so they can maximize the drama.

他们说，像格雷格这样的律师有很多年的时间来做这些事情，但他们等到最后一刻，这样他们就可以最大限度地发挥戏剧性。

I ask him about this.

我问他这件事。

So these are files that you've had for a long time, and you're just now-- I guess, I wondered if this name had--

所以这些是你已经拥有很长时间的文件，而你现在——我想，我想知道这个名字是否有——

Yeah.

是的。

Maurice Chammah --and something you just got or--

Maurice Chammah——以及你刚刚得到的东西或者——

No, yeah, but I've had it for a long time in the sense that it's buried in 12,000 pages of records.

不，是的，但我已经拥有它很长时间了，因为它被埋藏在 12,000 页的记录中。

[CHUCKLES]

[笑声]

He says it's buried in 12,000 pages of records, his point being that, yes, he's technically had Michael Plyler's name for years, but he's been working solo for much of that time, so he's had to pick and choose what to focus on.

他说它被埋在 12,000 页的记录中，他的观点是，是的，从技术上讲，他多年来一直使用迈克尔·普莱勒 (Michael Plyler) 的名字，但他大部分时间都是独自工作，所以他必须挑选并选择要关注的内容。

But it's also true that Greg is incentivized to stretch this out as much as possible, to show up at court with new information right before the execution.

但格雷格确实有动力尽可能地延长这一时间，在行刑前带着新信息出现在法庭上。

That way, the judges will be so overwhelmed, they'll have to hit the pause button, and Greg's client gets to live another day.

这样一来，评委们就会不知所措，不得不按下暂停按钮，而格雷格的客户又可以多活一天了。

In fact, Greg's already been accused pretty harshly of delaying David Wood's execution in all kinds of ways.

事实上，格雷格已经被严厉指控以各种方式拖延大卫·伍德的处决。

In 2009, Wood was about to be put to death, and a day before it, Greg got them to delay by arguing that David Wood has an intellectual disability.

2009 年，伍德即将被处决，而在前一天，格雷格以大卫·伍德有智力障碍为由，让他们推迟了死刑。

The courts ultimately reject this appeal, but it takes five years for them to rule on it.

法院最终驳回了这一上诉，但需要五年时间才能做出裁决。

Then they spend years arguing over evidence that was never DNA-tested.

然后他们花了数年时间争论从未经过 DNA 测试的证据。

Last year, a judge, summarizing the last 15 years of this case, accused David's defense of a, quote, "pattern of piecemeal litigation and delay."

去年，一位法官总结了该案过去 15 年的情况，指责大卫的辩护采用了“零碎诉讼和拖延的模式”。

Over those years, Greg has filed motions to replace prosecutors, to claim a judge had a conflict of interest, to test this or that bit of evidence.

这些年来，格雷格提出了更换检察官的动议，声称法官存在利益冲突，测试这个或那个证据。

He lost all these arguments, but the judge's point was, this guy just throws spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks, and he does it one noodle at a time.

他输掉了所有这些论点，但法官的观点是，这家伙只是把意大利面条扔到墙上，看看什么能粘住，而且他一次只扔一根面条。

Other lawyers get accused of the same things.

其他律师也因同样的事情而受到指控。

There's a perception on the part of prosecutors and also lots of judges that lawyers like Greg are such extreme anti-death penalty zealots that they're willing to bend the rules, if not outright break them.

检察官和许多法官都认为，像格雷格这样的律师是极端的反死刑狂热分子，他们愿意改变规则，即使不是彻底违反规则。

Greg and I finish up at the courthouse around lunchtime.

午餐时间，格雷格和我在法院结束了工作。

Before we head back to the hotel, he proposes we swing by someone's house first-- a woman he's been trying to talk to for some time now, Ramona Dismukes.

在我们返回酒店之前，他建议我们先去拜访一下某人的房子——他已经尝试与这位女士交谈一段时间了，Ramona Dismukes。

Her importance as a witness is kind of questionable.

她作为证人的重要性有点值得怀疑。

She was best friends with a girl who disappeared back in 1987.

她和一个 1987 年失踪的女孩是最好的朋友。

A lot of people in El Paso assumed David Wood was responsible, but police never found evidence, and he wasn't convicted of it.

埃尔帕索的很多人都认为大卫·伍德对此负责，但警方从未找到证据，他也没有被定罪。

It's the kind of witness I could imagine skipping, but Greg decides it's worth a try.

我可以想象跳过这种证人，但格雷格认为值得一试。

We pull off the highway and drive up to this small house where a guy with a mohawk is hauling stuff out to a dumpster.

我们下了高速公路，开车来到一座小房子，那里有一个留着莫霍克发型的家伙正在把东西拖到垃圾箱里。

Greg hops out of the car and talks to him.

格雷格跳下车并与他交谈。

He comes back, looking defeated.

他回来了，看上去很失败。

But as we're pulling away, I see a woman in the rearview mirror.

但当我们离开时，我在后视镜中看到了一个女人。

Greg leads the woman towards the car, and I roll down my window.

格雷格领着女人走向汽车，我摇下车窗。

What's your name?

你叫什么名字？

I'm sorry.

对不起。

Greg Wiercioch Oh, yeah, this is--

Greg Wiercioch 噢，是的，这是——

I'm Ramona Dismukes.

我是雷蒙娜·迪穆克斯。

Maurice Chammah Everyone is half-interrupting each other.

Maurice Chammah 每个人都在互相干扰。

Ramona tells us the mohawk guy is actually her husband.

雷蒙娜告诉我们，莫霍克人实际上是她的丈夫。

She moved out of state and is just back to do renovations.

她搬出了州，刚刚回来进行装修。

She seems excited to talk to Greg, but says the house is too much of a mess to invite him in.

她似乎很高兴能与格雷格交谈，但她说房子太乱了，无法邀请他进来。

She suggests another spot.

她建议另一个地方。

I mean, there's a Whataburger up the street, right around the corner.

我的意思是，街上有一家 Whataburger，就在拐角处。

OK.

好的。

Ramona Dismukes And I can go there--

雷蒙娜·迪穆克斯 我可以去那里——

Your husband said you might have files and records still.

你丈夫说你可能还留有文件和记录。

I still have all of the old articles.

我还保留着所有旧文章。

I have everything.

我拥有一切。

All right, to the left.

好吧，往左边走。

Ramona Dismukes See you in a bit.

雷蒙娜·迪穆克斯 一会儿见。

Naomi and Alvin meet us at the Whataburger.

内奥米和阿尔文在 Whataburger 与我们见面。

As the only native Texan in this group, I feel obligated to say, Whataburger is a state institution, but it is not a great place to do an interview.

作为这个群体中唯一的德克萨斯人，我觉得有义务说，Whataburger 是一个州立机构，但它不是一个进行采访的好地方。

There's loud music, soda fountains and fryers going, people coming in and out.

音乐声喧闹，汽水柜和油炸锅运转，人们进进出出。

Ramona blazes in, big, expressive face.

雷蒙娜 (Ramona) 表情丰富，大脸热情洋溢。

Her hair is wild and curly, some of the layers dyed cherry red.

她的头发狂野卷曲，有几层染成樱桃红色。

She slaps down this giant binder, very dusty, that says, "Mona's Articles"-- she also goes by Mona-- in cursive letters next to what looks like a cigarette burn.

她拍掉这个巨大的活页夹，上面满是灰尘，上面用草书写着“莫娜的文章”——她也用莫娜——旁边看起来像是香烟烫过的地方。

It's full of old newspaper clippings that leave flakes on the table.

桌子上堆满了旧报纸的碎片。

Apparently, all those years Greg was developing his theories of what really happened in 1987, Ramona was nursing her own.

显然，这些年来格雷格一直在发展自己对 1987 年真实发生的事情的理论，而雷蒙娜则在酝酿自己的理论。

El Paso is a pretty big city, but Ramona talked about it like a small town.

埃尔帕索是一座相当大的城市，但雷蒙娜谈论它就像一座小镇。

David Wood, the police, the victims, their parents-- everybody knows everybody, as if somehow they all went to high school together.

大卫·伍德、警察、受害者、他们的父母——每个人都认识每个人，就好像他们都一起上过高中一样。

Even this Whataburger is relevant, in a way.

在某种程度上，甚至这个 Whataburger 也是相关的。

Ramona tells us she got involved in this case because of her best friend, Cheryl Vasquez.

雷蒙娜告诉我们，她卷入此案是因为她最好的朋友谢丽尔·瓦斯奎兹。

When they were still teenagers, Cheryl married Ramona's brother, which made them best friends and sisters-in-law.

当他们还是青少年时，谢丽尔嫁给了雷蒙娜的兄弟，这使他们成为最好的朋友和嫂子。

And Cheryl--

还有谢丽尔——

She worked right here at this Whataburger.

她就在这家 Whataburger 工作。

This is where she worked.

这是她工作的地方。

Wow.

哇。

Ramona Dismukes When she went missing, she was working here.

雷蒙娜·迪穆克斯失踪时，她正在这里工作。

And she never even got her last check from this place because she was gone.

她甚至没有从这个地方拿到最后一张支票，因为她已经走了。

But--

但是——

Cheryl was 19 when she disappeared, the same summer as all the Desert Killer victims.

谢丽尔失踪时年仅 19 岁，与所有沙漠杀手受害者同年夏天失踪。

When bodies started turning up in the desert, Ramona was worried that Cheryl was going to be one of them.

当沙漠中开始出现尸体时，雷蒙娜担心谢丽尔会成为其中之一。

She felt the cops weren't looking hard enough for her friend, so she enlisted her mom, and they decided to figure out what happened to Cheryl themselves.

她觉得警察对她朋友的搜查还不够，所以她向妈妈求助，他们决定亲自弄清楚谢丽尔发生了什么事。

They knew Cheryl was last seen at this one Circle K convenience store.

他们知道谢丽尔最后一次出现是在这家 Circle K 便利店。

And so they came up with, frankly, a totally bonkers plan.

坦率地说，他们想出了一个完全疯狂的计划。

We started hanging out at that Circle K.

我们开始在 Circle K 闲逛。

And my mom was literally tricking me.

我妈妈实际上是在欺骗我。

She was like, go sit on that wall, and somebody's going to come and try to kidnap you.

她就像，坐在那堵墙上，有人会来试图绑架你。

And I'll call the cops, and we'll get them and we'll know who it was.

我会报警，我们会抓住他们，我们就会知道是谁。

And I'm like, OK.

我想，好吧。

Your mom like a real character from what I've--

你妈妈喜欢我所扮演的真实角色--

Oh!

哦！

She was feisty until the moment she died.

直到死的那一刻，她都充满活力。

She had me sit on that wall in little shorts, 17 years old, waiting to get me kidnapped.

她让我穿着小短裤坐在墙上，17 岁，等着我被绑架。

I'm like, thanks, Mom.

我想，谢谢，妈妈。

But--

但是——

By way of explanation, Ramona says that her mom was, quote, "German." The lawyers don't ask her to explain more.

作为解释，雷蒙娜说她的妈妈是“德国人”。律师没有要求她做更多解释。

But as strange as the plan was, there was some logic to it.

尽管这个计划很奇怪，但它还是有一定逻辑的。

Ramona and Cheryl were about the same age and, according to Ramona, looked so alike that they got mistaken for sisters.

雷蒙娜和谢丽尔年龄相仿，据雷蒙娜说，她们长得很像，以至于被误认为是姐妹。

Ramona's mom thought she could use her daughter's looks to lure out the Desert Killer.

雷蒙娜的妈妈认为她可以利用女儿的外表来引诱沙漠杀手。

Ramona says that she and her mom did the Circle K routine over a few days with no luck.

雷蒙娜说，她和妈妈花了几天时间进行 Circle K 例程，但没有成功。

Then, one afternoon, she was sitting on a wall outside the store in her shorts when she saw a truck approach.

然后，一天下午，她穿着短裤坐在商店外的墙上，看到一辆卡车驶来。

Word around town was that the Desert Killer drove a beige or a brown truck.

镇上有传言称，沙漠杀手驾驶的是米色或棕色卡车。

One day, this brown truck came rolling in and went to the store and came out and looked over at me and was like, oh, shit.

有一天，一辆棕色卡车开进商店，出来后看着我，就像是，哦，该死。

Threw a quarter at me-- go home.

向我扔了一枚硬币——回家吧。

Huh?

啊？

Go home.

回家吧。

Your family's looking for you.

你的家人正在找你。

They said I stole you, and the cops have been asking me questions.

他们说我偷了你，警察一直在问我问题。

You need to take your ass home.

你得把你的屁股带回家。

And I'm like, who are you talking to?

我就想，你在跟谁说话？

And I didn't know--

而我不知道——

This was how Ramona first met David Wood.

这是雷蒙娜第一次遇见大卫·伍德的方式。

At this point, the cops were starting to zero in on him for the disappearances, including Cheryl's, and he knew it.

此时，警察开始将他的失踪案归零，包括谢丽尔的失踪，他知道这一点。

He mistakenly thought Ramona was Cheryl because, again, they looked alike.

他错误地认为雷蒙娜是谢丽尔，因为他们看起来很相似。

So that part of the plan actually worked.

所以计划的这一部分确实有效。

Ramona says he tossed a quarter at her as in, you're the girl the cops think I abducted.

雷蒙娜说他向她扔了一枚硬币，意思是“你是警察认为我绑架的那个女孩”。

Please use this quarter to call home on the payphone.

请利用这个季度用公用电话给家里打电话。

Tell everyone you're safe.

告诉大家你很安全。

Ramona goes on to tell us about the surprising relationship that developed between her, her mom, and David Wood, something between a friendship and a covert op.

雷蒙娜接着向我们讲述了她、她的妈妈和大卫·伍德之间发展起来的令人惊讶的关系，这种关系介于友谊和秘密行动之间。

David Wood himself remembers spending time with the two of them, but what he didn't know is that they were also spying on him.

大卫·伍德本人记得和他们两个一起度过的时光，但他不知道的是他们也在监视他。

Ramona says her mom started inviting David Wood to their house.

雷蒙娜说，她妈妈开始邀请大卫·伍德到他们家。

He'd come over, she'd give him coffee, they'd hang out, and they'd talk.

他过来，她给他喝咖啡，他们一起出去玩，然后聊天。

My mom thought she was slick, and she was.

我妈妈认为她很狡猾，而且确实如此。

My mom was like, I'm going to sit here and talk to him, you go search his truck.

我妈妈说，我要坐在这里和他说话，你去搜查他的卡车。

She says she stole David Wood's keys and rifled through his truck, trying to find something incriminating.

她说她偷了大卫·伍德的钥匙并翻遍了他的卡车，试图找到一些有罪的东西。

But she never did.

但她从来没有这样做过。

She also saw him get nauseous around blood.

她还看到他因血液而感到恶心。

She cut her hand in front of him once, which, while not exactly exonerating, didn't scream serial killer either.

有一次她在他面前割伤了自己的手，虽然不能完全证明她无罪，但也没有尖叫连环杀手。

For Ramona and her mom, it all added up to one thing-- David Wood could not be the Desert Killer.

对于雷蒙娜和她的妈妈来说，这一切加起来就是一件事——大卫·伍德不可能成为沙漠杀手。

Ramona says her mom was eager to help clear his name.

雷蒙娜说，她妈妈很想帮他洗清罪名。

My mom immediately called the detectives.

我妈妈立即打电话给侦探。

He's the wrong guy.

他是错误的人。

You got the wrong guy because he didn't kidnap my daughter, and she looks just like Cheryl.

你找错人了，因为他没有绑架我的女儿，而且她长得很像谢丽尔。

And he threw a quarter at her and told her to go home.

他向她扔了一枚25美分硬币，并让她回家。

And my mom's German-- very feisty, very loud.

我妈妈是德国人——非常活跃，声音很大。

She's like, da-da-da-da-da.

她就像是，达达达达达达。

So they're like, oh, we want to come and talk to you.

所以他们就像，哦，我们想来和你谈谈。

The police came to the house and asked Ramona to come down to the station to give a statement to detectives.

警察来到这所房子，要求雷蒙娜去警察局向侦探提供口供。

She was sketched out.

她被勾画出来了。

I said, no, I'm not going to give you a statement.

我说，不，我不会给你任何声明。

And they said, well, we want to show you something.

他们说，好吧，我们想给你看一些东西。

So they put me in the car and took me out to the desert.

于是他们把我放进车里，带我去了沙漠。

And they're like, there's bodies out here, and it'd be really easy for you to be out here.

他们说，这里有尸体，你很容易就到这里来。

And they wanted me to write a statement.

他们要我写一份声明。

They told me, out there in the desert, we need you to go back and write a statement.

他们告诉我，在沙漠里，我们需要你回去写一份声明。

We need you to tell us that David Wood tried to take you.

我们需要你告诉我们大卫·伍德试图带走你。

I said, but he didn't try to take me.

我说了，但他并没有试图带我走。

He threw a quarter at me and told me to go home.

他向我扔了一枚硬币，并让我回家。

He said, well, that's not what we need you to say.

他说，好吧，这不是我们需要你说的。

[CHUCKLES] I said, but that's not the truth.

[笑]我说过，但这不是事实。

They said, you look just like all the other girls that are gone.

他们说，你看起来就像所有其他已经消失的女孩一样。

This could be you.

这可能是你。

And I was like, are you threatening me?

我当时想，你在威胁我吗？

And they're like, well, no, we're just telling you that if you don't put him away, he might take you.

他们就像，好吧，不，我们只是告诉你，如果你不把他带走，他可能会带走你。

Ramona says the detectives who drove her out to the desert were Johnny Guerrero and his partner, Alfonso Marquez.

雷蒙娜说，将她赶到沙漠的侦探是约翰尼·格雷罗和他的搭档阿方索·马尔克斯。

She eventually put all of this in a sworn statement to the court.

她最终将所有这些都写在了向法庭宣誓的声明中。

Ramona is not the first person to accuse these guys of abusing their power.

雷蒙娜并不是第一个指责这些人滥用权力的人。

There's George Hall, the guy who called Greg with the whole story of the jailhouse informants and the red carpet treatment and later laid out his claims in a sworn declaration.

乔治·霍尔（George Hall）打电话给格雷格，讲述了监狱线人和红地毯待遇的整个故事，后来在一份宣誓声明中提出了自己的主张。

According to trial transcripts, at least one other witness claimed the police tried to add falsehoods to her statement.

根据审判记录，至少另一名证人声称警方试图在她的陈述中添加谎言。

In a different case from around this time, a suspect told a reporter that Detective Guerrero bullied him into a false confession.

在与此时不同的案件中，一名嫌疑人告诉记者，格雷罗警探胁迫他做出虚假供述。

We asked Detective Guerrero about that interrogation, and he said he didn't remember it.

我们向格雷罗侦探询问了那次审讯，他说他不记得了。

He also denied ever taking Ramona out to the desert.

他还否认曾带雷蒙娜去沙漠。

Actually, what he said, was, quote, "She's full of shit." Moreover, he told us, in his 15 years in homicide, quote, "I was never accused of any wrongdoing or coercion by anyone I talked to or any case I worked," unquote.

事实上，他所说的是，引用的话，“她满嘴都是狗屎。”此外，他告诉我们，在他从事凶杀案的 15 年里，“我从未被任何与我交谈过的人或我处理过的案件指控为任何不当行为或胁迫”，引述。

Detective Marquez, for his part, died a couple of years ago.

马尔克斯侦探几年前去世了。

But it is worth noting that he had a reputation for lying and using force.

但值得注意的是，他因撒谎和使用武力而闻名。

In a different case, he allegedly bullied a 16-year-old kid to make him confess to two murders.

在另一起案件中，他据称欺负一名 16 岁的孩子，迫使他承认两起谋杀案。

The kid was later exonerated after serving nearly 20 years in prison.

这个孩子在监狱服刑近20年后后来被无罪释放。

Watching the lawyers interview Ramona, watching them jot down notes at every twist and turn, I was struck by how absurd it was that this was where we found ourselves, 50 days out from the execution, all of us huddled around a table in this Whataburger, the lawyers trying to piece together something useful from this zany story.

看着律师们采访雷蒙娜，看着他们在每一个转折点上记下笔记，我惊讶于我们发现自己是多么荒谬，在距离处决还有 50 天的时候，我们所有人都挤在这个 Whataburger 的一张桌子旁，律师们试图从这个滑稽的故事中拼凑出一些有用的东西。

Ramona is entertaining, but since I'm not steeped in the case, it also seems like she mixes theories and stories and gossip and evidence so effortlessly and at such a rapid clip, that it's a little hard to keep up, much less to accept it all at face value.

雷蒙娜很有趣，但由于我对这个案子不感兴趣，所以她似乎毫不费力地将理论、故事、八卦和证据混合在一起，速度如此之快，以至于有点难以跟上，更不用说从表面上接受这一切了。

Yeah, right, right.

是啊，对，对。

Maurice Chammah I look over at Greg and Naomi to see how they're reacting, to get some clue about how seriously I should take all of this, but they're more or less statues.

莫里斯·查玛（Maurice Chammah） 我看着格雷格和内奥米，看看他们的反应如何，想了解一些关于我应该如何认真对待这一切的线索，但他们或多或少都是雕像。

Very stoic, these two lawyers in a Whataburger.

这两位律师在 Whataburger 餐厅里非常坚忍。

All of which to say, I'm not sure how to assess some of the other claims Ramona makes.

综上所述，我不确定如何评估雷蒙娜提出的其他一些主张。

The most explosive ones concern a very important person in the case against David Wood, Judith Kelling.

最具爆炸性的事件涉及大卫·伍德案件中的一个非常重要的人物朱迪思·凯林。

And when I heard her name, I'm like, this is that prostitute that's saying David raped her.

当我听到她的名字时，我就想，这就是那个妓女说大卫强奸了她。

Yes.

是的。

Maurice Chammah Judith Kelling was the woman who claimed David Wood raped her out in the desert.

莫里斯·查玛·朱迪思·凯林（Maurice Chammah Judith Kelling）声称大卫·伍德在沙漠中强奸了她。

Ramona says she was out one day, looking for her sister-in-law, who was still missing, when she spotted Kelling and sidled up to her.

雷蒙娜说，有一天，她出去寻找仍然失踪的嫂子，这时她发现了凯林，并向她走来。

So I'm playing it cool with her, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm looking for my sister, and da-da-da-da.

所以我对她表现得很冷静，我想，哦，是的，我正在寻找我的妹妹，并且达达达达。

And she's like, oh, the David Wood thing.

她就像，哦，大卫·伍德的事情。

She's like, yeah, that's all bullshit.

她就像，是的，那都是废话。

I was like, what do you mean?

我当时想，你是什么意思？

And she's like, he didn't do anything to me.

她就像，他没有对我做任何事。

She told you this after David was arrested in October of 1987.

她是在 1987 年 10 月 David 被捕后告诉你的。

Here after he was arrested, after he was already charged with her rape, what he was charged with before he was--

在他被捕之后，在他被指控强奸她之后，他之前被指控的罪名——

You can tell in Greg's voice how much he would love to poke holes in Judith Kelling's credibility.

从格雷格的声音中你可以听出他是多么想揭穿朱迪思·凯林的可信度。

It's something he's been trying to do for years.

这是他多年来一直在努力做的事情。

For example, he found one source who gave a sworn statement to the court that Judith Kelling had been a police informant, and specifically that she'd been Detective Johnny Guerrero's informant when she reported her rape.

例如，他发现一位消息人士向法庭提供了一份宣誓声明，称朱迪思·凯林是一名警方线人，特别是当她报告强奸案时，她是约翰尼·格雷罗警探的线人。

Judith also spent long stretches in jail around this time on drug charges.

朱迪思也在此时因毒品指控而在监狱里度过了很长一段时间。

On top of that, Greg has noticed that her story of what exactly happened in the desert kept changing, getting more and more aligned with other things the police believed about David Wood and the murders.

最重要的是，格雷格注意到她关于沙漠中到底发生的事情的故事不断变化，与警方相信的有关大卫·伍德和谋杀案的其他事情越来越一致。

Greg uses these points to make an argument in court filings.

格雷格在法庭文件中利用这些观点进行论证。

Desperate to solve the murders, Detective Guerrero squeezed an equally desperate Judith Kelling to point the finger at David Wood.

格雷罗警探迫切地想要侦破这起谋杀案，他迫使同样绝望的朱迪思·凯林将矛头指向了大卫·伍德。

We asked Detective Guerrero about all of this, and he denies that Kelling was ever his informant.

我们向格雷罗警探询问了这一切，他否认凯林曾经是他的线人。

Judith Kelling died a decade ago, so Greg can't ask her about it.

朱迪丝·凯林十年前去世了，所以格雷格不能问她这件事。

But here, in this Whataburger, Ramona claims Kelling revealed much more to her about what really went down.

但在这里，在这个 Whataburger 中，雷蒙娜声称凯林向她透露了更多有关真正发生的事情的信息。

This is what she's telling me.

这就是她告诉我的。

They made a deal with me to get me out of jail, and all I got to do is testify against this guy.

他们与我达成协议，让我出狱，而我所要做的就是作证指控这个人。

I was like, well, were you even raped?

我当时想，好吧，你被强奸了吗？

She's like, yeah, but not by him.

她就像，是的，但不是他的。

I'm like, who?

我想，谁？

She said, Mike Plyler.

她说，迈克·普莱勒。

I'm like, who's this guy?

我想，这个人是谁？

Mike Plyler?

迈克·普莱勒？

What?

什么？

The same guy Greg asked about at the courthouse a few hours ago?

格雷格几个小时前在法院问过的那个人是同一个人吗？

The one I thought was a long shot?

我以为是一个远射？

I look over at Greg, and I can see he's just as surprised.

我看着格雷格，我发现他也同样感到惊讶。

He's barely able to contain himself, nodding so hard it's like he's swaying.

他几乎无法控制自己，用力地点点头，就像在摇晃一样。

Ramona says that after she got Mike Plyler's name from Judith, she and her mom looked for the guy and, well, basically stalked him.

雷蒙娜说，当她从朱迪思那里得知迈克·普莱勒的名字后，她和她妈妈就开始寻找这个人，而且基本上是跟踪他。

They staked out his apartment, watched him come and go.

他们监视着他的公寓，看着他来来去去。

They were blown away by the similarities between this man and David Wood-- similar builds, similar tattoos.

他们对这个人和大卫·伍德之间的相似之处感到震惊——相似的体型，相似的纹身。

On top of the similar trucks, they also both drove red motorcycles.

除了类似的卡车外，他们还都驾驶红色摩托车。

I can practically see the gears turning in Greg's mind.

我几乎可以看到格雷格脑子里的齿轮在转动。

And as the Whataburger fills with the sound of someone making the world's loudest milkshake, he tosses out one more question.

当 Whataburger 里充满了某人制作世界上最响亮的奶昔的声音时，他又抛出了一个问题。

Do you have any information about this nickname Skeeter that supposedly is--

你有关于这个绰号“斯基特”的任何信息吗？据说是——

Well, when you say that, how do you know that he's Skeeter?

好吧，当你这么说时，你怎么知道他是斯基特？

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Ramona Dismukes That's what she called him.

雷蒙娜·迪穆克斯 她就是这么称呼他的。

She called him Skeeter.

她叫他斯基特。

So that's Skeeter.

这就是斯基特。

Ramona says that she went to the cops back in 1987 and told them everything she learned, about David Wood, about Judith Kelling, and about Michael Plyler.

雷蒙娜说，她在 1987 年就去找了警察，告诉了他们她所了解到的一切，关于大卫·伍德、关于朱迪思·凯林和关于迈克尔·普莱勒。

And, she says, the cops did nothing.

而且，她说，警察什么也没做。

They could have, for example, looked more into Plyler, gotten some DNA samples, polygraphed him.

例如，他们可以对普莱勒进行更多调查，获取一些 DNA 样本，对他进行测谎。

Instead, Ramona says, they simply told her to stay away.

相反，雷蒙娜说，他们只是告诉她远离。

Ramona's whole story is wild, obviously.

显然，雷蒙娜的整个故事都很疯狂。

And as we wrap up at the Whataburger, it's not clear to me how Greg is going to use it all, whether he's going to try to corroborate any of these details.

当我们在 Whataburger 结束时，我不清楚格雷格将如何使用这一切，他是否会尝试证实这些细节。

And I'm not sure that's really possible.

我不确定这是否真的可能。

I can imagine what a prosecutor might say.

我可以想象检察官会说什么。

For example, the Judith Kelling story, that it wasn't David Wood who raped her, well, the state could point to trial testimony from Kelling's sister, who said Judith identified David Wood as the rapist right after it happened.

例如，朱迪思·凯林的故事，强奸她的不是大卫·伍德，好吧，州政府可以援引凯林姐姐的审判证词，她说朱迪思在事情发生后立即认定大卫·伍德是强奸犯。

Greg could go after the sister's credibility, but the question remains, why would Judith Kelling make a grand revelation to Ramona, a teenager she just met?

格雷格可以追究妹妹的可信度，但问题仍然存在，朱迪思·凯林为什么要向她刚刚认识的青少年雷蒙娜透露一个重大真相？

There's also a question about Ramona's motivations.

还有一个关于雷蒙娜动机的问题。

I found an old news story that says she was banned from the El Paso County Jail.

我发现一则旧新闻报道说她被禁止进入埃尔帕索县监狱。

She had allegedly graffitied "I love David Wood" on the wall of a visiting booth.

据称，她在参观摊位的墙上涂鸦了“我爱大卫·伍德”。

Ramona denies it and says people were just out to tarnish her reputation because she was questioning the police department's version of events.

雷蒙娜否认了这一点，并表示人们只是想玷污她的声誉，因为她质疑警察局对事件的说法。

Still, not a great thing to have out there on the internet.

尽管如此，在互联网上发布并不是一件好事。

But what's most useful to Greg, I think, are all those moments when the cops appeared to have tunnel vision.

但我认为，对格雷格来说最有用的是那些警察看起来目光狭隘的时刻。

For example, when Ramona says they tried to get her to falsely accuse David Wood or when she says they ignored the Plyler story, especially if the state didn't tell Wood's lawyers about this stuff before his trial.

例如，当雷蒙娜说他们试图让她错误地指控大卫·伍德时，或者当她说他们忽视了普莱勒的故事时，特别是如果州政府在伍德受审前没有告诉他的律师这些事情的话。

I wouldn't call these bombshells, but I would call them good evidence.

我不会称这些为重磅炸弹，但我认为它们是很好的证据。

And you could argue that Greg only found it all because the execution date forced him to knock on every door one more time.

你可能会说，格雷格之所以发现这一切，是因为处决日期迫使他再次敲开每一扇门。

I ended up calling Mike Plyler a few weeks later.

几周后我给迈克·普莱勒打了电话。

He confirmed that he did live in El Paso during the time in question.

他证实，他在涉案期间确实住在埃尔帕索。

His tone got a little sharp when I asked if he went by the nickname Skeeter.

当我问他是否使用斯基特这个绰号时，他的语气变得有点尖锐。

He interrupted me and said, quote, "That's false." When asked about raping anyone or being the Desert Killer, he said, quote, "I haven't done nothing.

他打断了我的话并说道：“那是假的。”当被问及强奸任何人或成为沙漠杀手时，他说，“我什么也没做。

I don't have nothing to hide." After we hung up, I sent him Ramona's claims.

我没有什么可隐瞒的。”挂断电话后，我向他发送了雷蒙娜的索赔要求。

He ghosted me.

他对我产生了幻觉。

I do feel for him.

我确实对他有感觉。

This whole episode made me see just how easy it is for anyone to be accused of pretty egregious stuff in a legal filing, in this case, rape and being a suspect in a serial murder case, all because some stranger mentions your name in a Whataburger.

整个事件让我明白，任何人在法律诉讼中被指控犯有相当令人震惊的事情是多么容易，在本案中，强奸和成为连环谋杀案的嫌疑人，这一切都是因为一些陌生人在 Whataburger 中提到了你的名字。

We felt we had to use Plyler's name, given how much it showed up in the lawyer's legal filing, but we also felt like this man deserves every possible opportunity to respond.

考虑到普莱勒的名字在律师的法律文件中出现的次数，我们觉得我们必须使用普莱勒的名字，但我们也觉得这个人应该有一切可能的机会做出回应。

So after I sent a ton of follow-ups that went unanswered, Alvin and I decided we just had to try in person.

因此，在我发送了大量后续信息但无人回复后，阿尔文和我决定我们必须亲自尝试一下。

Plyler lives in a mid-sized city in the south.

普莱勒住在南部的一个中型城市。

When we got to his house, there were a couple of warning signs about a pitbull, and then we heard barking.

当我们到达他家时，有几个关于斗牛犬的警告信号，然后我们听到了狗叫声。

I did see a dog through the window-- pretty cute, actually.

我确实透过窗户看到了一只狗——实际上非常可爱。

Plyler opened up just to tell us, quote, "I'm not interested." I asked if I could give him a folder with Ramona's claims.

普莱勒开口只是想告诉我们，引用的话，“我不感兴趣。”我问我是否可以给他一个包含雷蒙娜的声明的文件夹。

He suggested I throw it in the garbage.

他建议我把它扔进垃圾桶。

I leaned over to put it on the doormat, and by the time I stood back up, the door was closed.

我弯下腰把它放在门垫上，当我站起来时，门已经关上了。

The whole thing lasted maybe 10 seconds.

整个事情持续了大概10秒。

I haven't been able to reach him since.

从那以后我就再也联系不到他了。

Maurice Chammah.

莫里斯·查玛.

That is from his brand-new podcast, The Last 12 Weeks, which is made by Serial with The New York Times and the Marshall Project.

这是他的全新播客《最后 12 周》，由 Serial 与《纽约时报》和马歇尔计划共同制作。

You can hear the rest, the promising leads, the disappointing leads, the far-fetched leads, everything they try in this true-life crime story.

你可以听到其余的线索，有希望的线索，令人失望的线索，牵强的线索，以及他们在这个真实生活中的犯罪故事中尝试的一切。

When you do-- I just want to give you a heads up-- you've now heard about 10 minutes of episode one and 15 minutes of episode two, so most of those two episodes, you're going to want to go back and hear the stuff we haven't included today.

当你这样做时——我只是想提醒你——你现在已经听了大约 10 分钟的第一集和 15 分钟的第二集，所以这两集的大部分内容，你会想回去听我们今天没有包括的内容。

You can hear that, The Last 12 Weeks, wherever you get your podcasts.

无论您在哪里观看播客，您都可以听到《过去 12 周》。

Coming up, people tossing out a real-life message in a bottle every single Sunday, hoping someone will respond.

接下来，人们每个星期天都会在瓶子里扔出一条现实生活中的信息，希望有人能回应。

That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

稍后芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's show, There's Something About Hail Mary.

今天的节目是《万福玛丽》。

As I said earlier, we're spending this entire hour in the last two minutes of the fourth quarter with people who are behind and desperate, trying any damn thing they can think of.

正如我之前所说，我们在第四节的最后两分钟里花了整整一个小时与落后和绝望的人们一起，尝试他们能想到的任何该死的事情。

We've arrived at Act Two of our program, Act Two, Bottle Episode.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕，第二幕，瓶子情节。

What is the plural of Hail Mary?

《万福玛利亚》的复数是什么？

Is it Hail Marys?

是万福玛利亚吗？

It seems like it should be the "hail" part that gets to be the part that's plural because that's the action, right?

看起来应该是“冰雹”部分成为复数部分，因为这就是动作，对吧？

That's the thing that's happening.

这就是正在发生的事情。

But just Hails Mary just sounds weird.

但“万岁玛丽”听起来很奇怪。

I ask this because Miki Meek has this story where you need the plural.

我问这个是因为 Miki Meek 有一个需要复数的故事。

Aisha Wallace Palomares came across this thing sort of by accident.

艾莎·华莱士·帕洛马雷斯偶然发现了这件事。

She's an immigration reporter for a website called LA Taco.

她是一家名为 LA Taco 的网站的移民记者。

And she heard about a lot of people gathering every week outside a detention center called Otay Mesa in San Diego.

她听说每周都有很多人聚集在圣地亚哥一个名为 Otay Mesa 的拘留中心外。

It's in a pretty desolate spot, surrounded by industrial parks and mountains with off-roading trails.

它位于一个相当荒凉的地方，周围环绕着工业园区和带有越野小径的山脉。

I think, actually, when I first walked up, I think Kiss was playing.

我想，实际上，当我第一次走上前去时，我认为 Kiss 正在演奏。

[CHUCKLES] A Kiss song was playing.

[咯咯笑]正在播放一首《Kiss》歌曲。

And I just remember very cozy, very friendly, very positive.

我只记得非常舒适、非常友好、非常积极。

Even though this was across-- you're looking at this detention center that has beige walls and two layers of fence with barbed wire.

即使这是对面——你看到的这个拘留中心有米色的墙壁和两层带刺铁丝网的围栏。

And it's just a very stark contrast.

这只是一个非常鲜明的对比。

It was a whole group of people, about 150 who brought their dogs and kids.

这是一大群人，大约 150 人，带着他们的狗和孩子。

They wanted the people inside to know they were there, which is kind of a puzzle because of the fences, hence the music, which they played pretty loud.

他们希望里面的人知道他们在那里，这有点令人困惑，因为有栅栏，因此他们播放的音乐很大声。

They also flew kites, and the kids blew bubbles, hoping to get some of them over the detention center's walls.

他们还放风筝，孩子们吹泡泡，希望能把一些泡泡吹过看守所的围墙。

Aisha watched a pastor walk up to a microphone and speaker that was set up.

艾莎看着一位牧师走到设置好的麦克风和扬声器前。

And he turned around and faced the detention center, and he said, all right, everyone, I want you guys to yell, you are not alone!

然后他转身面向看守所，他说，好吧，大家，我要你们喊，你们不是一个人！

You are not alone.

你并不孤单。

Let's say it to the hostages behind us.

让我们对后面的人质说吧。

You are not alone!

你并不孤单！

Pastor So two more times.

牧师如此两次。

You are not alone!

你并不孤单！

Miki Meek There are more than 1,300 detainees inside Otay Mesa.

米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 奥泰梅萨内关押着 1,300 多名被拘留者。

And a lot of them don't have a good, reliable way to communicate with the outside world.

他们中的许多人没有良好、可靠的方式与外界沟通。

In theory, they should be able to make phone calls.

理论上，他们应该能够打电话。

There are these tablets they can use to text or do video chats.

他们可以使用这些平板电脑发短信或进行视频聊天。

But the reality is that they have to pay to do any of that.

但现实是他们必须付费才能做到这些。

And a lot of people land in detention without any money.

许多人被拘留时身无分文。

And sometimes their families have no idea where they've been taken.

有时他们的家人不知道他们被带到哪里。

They can try to look it up online in ICE's Detainee Locator, but that's not always accurate or up-to-date.

他们可以尝试在 ICE 的被拘留者定位器中在线查找，但这并不总是准确或最新的。

And if you're wondering, don't people have a right to a free phone call?

如果您想知道，人们没有权利免费拨打电话吗？

The answer is no.

答案是否定的。

And then I just start to notice that they're calling over the fence.

然后我开始注意到他们越过栅栏打电话。

[SHOUTING] The organizers ask for A-numbers.

[喊叫]组织者要求提供 A 号码。

Can you just explain what's an A-number?

你能解释一下什么是A号码吗？

Yeah, it's called an alien number.

是的，这就是所谓的外星人号码。

It's basically a number that is designated to someone who is a non-citizen.

它基本上是指定给非公民的号码。

And A-numbers are really important for family members to locate their loved ones when they've been detained.

对于家人在被拘留时找到亲人来说，A 号码非常重要。

If they can get someone's A-number, organizers can put money directly on their books.

如果他们能得到某人的 A 号码，组织者就可以直接把钱存入他们的账簿上。

The organizers then started shushing people.

然后组织者开始对人们发出嘘声。

Everyone went silent, which Aisha thought was kind of strange until--

每个人都沉默了，艾莎觉得这有点奇怪，直到——

I heard people yell from inside the detention center.

我听到看守所里有人喊叫。

Someone was saying, Russia.

有人说，俄罗斯。

So at first, the organizers thought that they were requesting someone who speaks Russian.

所以一开始，组织者以为他们要求的是会说俄语的人。

But then they were realizing that the person inside was telling them that the A-number they were sharing was Russian.

但随后他们意识到里面的人告诉他们他们分享的 A 号码是俄罗斯的。

They had translators on hand for at least 13 languages, including Arabic, Russian, Swahili, and Tagalog.

他们拥有至少 13 种语言的翻译人员，包括阿拉伯语、俄语、斯瓦希里语和他加禄语。

A couple people stood by with notebooks and wrote A-numbers into them.

几个人拿着笔记本站在旁边，在上面写下了 A 数字。

They then immediately tried sending money through these apps, up to $20 for phone calls and text messages and another $45 for commissary.

然后，他们立即尝试通过这些应用程序汇款，电话和短信最多 20 美元，小卖部另外 45 美元。

That was the goal-- get as many A-numbers as possible.

这就是我们的目标——获得尽可能多的 A 数字。

It was hard to hear, even when everyone was quiet.

即使大家都很安静，也很难听清。

This is not like the easiest way to communicate, right?

这不像是最简单的沟通方式，对吗？

Like, have you heard of this kind of thing happening at other detention centers before?

请问您以前听说过其他看守所也发生过这样的事情吗？

No, I have not.

不，我没有。

This is the first time that I had heard anything like this before.

这是我以前第一次听到这样的事情。

Detainees were yelling from different outdoor yards, little patches of concrete with a single basketball hoop.

被拘留者在不同的室外院子里大喊大叫，这些院子都是小块混凝土，只有一个篮球框。

So at some point, someone started bringing a listening device with a parabolic dish.

因此，在某个时候，有人开始携带带有抛物面天线的监听设备。

And it's not the only way they communicated.

这并不是他们沟通的唯一方式。

I guess, there's a drain in one of the yards, or I'm not sure if it's in every yard.

我猜，其中一个院子里有一个排水沟，或者我不确定是否每个院子里都有。

And so some of the detainees started kneeling and yelling through the hole.

于是一些被拘留者开始跪下并在洞里大喊大叫。

The organizers, who call themselves the Otay Mesa Detention Collective, told Aisha that the first time they realized they could communicate through bullhorns and shouting was shortly after they started gathering outside the detention center last fall.

自称“奥泰梅萨拘留集体”的组织者告诉艾莎，他们第一次意识到可以通过扩音器和喊叫进行交流，是在去年秋天他们开始在拘留中心外聚集后不久。

They were giving out tamales and bags of fruit to families coming for visiting hours, when they heard a woman yelling from inside the detention center.

他们正在向前来探视的家人分发玉米粉蒸肉和袋装水果，这时他们听到拘留中心内传来一名妇女的喊叫声。

She was yelling on behalf of another woman who was inside and far from her family.

她代表另一名远离家人的妇女大喊大​​叫。

Here's a recording of that.

这是一段录音。

She's from Oxnard, 19 years old, and she's here!

她来自奥克斯纳德，19 岁，她就在这里！

She's only 19 years old?

她才19岁？

What's her name?

她叫什么名字？

She's from Oxnard, California.

她来自加利福尼亚州奥克斯纳德。

She wants her family to know she's here.

她想让她的家人知道她在这里。

What's her name?

她叫什么名字？

Her name was Yulissa, and her family did not know where she was.

她的名字叫尤莉莎，她的家人不知道她在哪里。

And so they were asking if the organizers could connect with the family or just get some help so that her family could know that she was in Otay Mesa.

因此，他们询问组织者是否可以与她的家人取得联系，或者只是寻求一些帮助，以便她的家人知道她在奥泰梅萨。

I just want to get deported because I want to get out of here!

我只是想被驱逐出境，因为我想离开这里！

[CRYING]

[哭泣]

Miki Meek One of the organizers posted video of that exchange on Instagram, and it went viral.

组织者之一米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 在 Instagram 上发布了这次交流的视频，该视频迅速走红。

Someone responded in a comment, "She's my in-law," and then set up a GoFundMe that said Yulissa's family had been looking for her for a week.

有人在评论中回应说，“她是我的姻亲”，然后设立了一个 GoFundMe，称尤莉莎的家人已经找​​了她一周了。

Until then, all they knew was that she never showed up to pick up her one-year-old daughter from daycare.

在那之前，他们只知道她从未去托儿所接她一岁的女儿。

When Aisha first saw that video, she thought it was something that had happened once.

当艾莎第一次看到那个视频时，她以为这件事曾经发生过。

She didn't realize it was happening all the time until she was there.

直到她到达那里，她才意识到这种情况一直在发生。

In the middle of all these A-numbers being shouted out, another thing happened.

在大家大声喊出这些A数字的时候，另一件事发生了。

I was just observing, and I saw people scramble, the organizer scramble and say, there's a bottle, there's a bottle!

我只是在观察，我看到人们争先恐后，组织者争先恐后地说，有一个瓶子，有一个瓶子！

And then I see a CoreCivic truck start to drive down.

然后我看到一辆 CoreCivic 卡车开始驶下。

CoreCivic is the private company that runs this detention center.

CoreCivic 是运营该拘留中心的私营公司。

It was a game of who was going to get there first, the CoreCivic security truck or the vigil attendee.

这是一场谁先到达那里的游戏，是 CoreCivic 安全卡车还是守夜参加者。

And one of the vigil attendees ended up grabbing the bottle and bringing it back.

一名守夜参与者最终抓起瓶子并将其带回来。

And then it was like a bottle.

然后它就像一个瓶子。

Like, what?

比如，什么？

What kind of bottle was it?

那是什么瓶子？

Aisha Wallace-Palomares It was a lotion bottle.

艾莎·华莱士-帕洛玛雷斯 这是一个乳液瓶。

You know, like, a travel-sized lotion bottle?

您知道旅行装乳液瓶吗？

And I was just, in that moment, like, someone threw a bottle from inside the detention facility.

在那一刻，我就像有人从拘留所里扔了一个瓶子。

It's a pretty wide distance to throw something over.

扔东西的距离相当远。

They have to throw it from inside of this pod, yard, over the cement wall, and then it has to go across-- I mean, I'm not sure how tall this fence is, maybe 14 to 20 feet tall, and it has barbed wire on it.

他们必须把它从这个吊舱、院子里扔到水泥墙上，然后它必须穿过——我的意思是，我不确定这栅栏有多高，也许有 14 到 20 英尺高，上面有铁丝网。

And that's one fence.

那是一堵栅栏。

Then there's a little gap, and there's another fence.

然后有一个小缺口，还有另一道栅栏。

And it's also tall and barbed wire.

而且它也很高，有刺铁丝网。

That is really wild.

那真是太疯狂了。

Aisha Wallace-Palomares Yeah, and I was just-- I had chills.

艾莎·华莱士-帕洛马雷斯 是的，我只是——我感到发冷。

I was like, that's insane.

我当时想，这太疯狂了。

I measured it on Google Maps.

我在谷歌地图上测量过。

The shortest distance they would have had to throw the lotion bottle is about 90 feet.

他们扔乳液瓶的最短距离约为 90 英尺。

I noticed that everyone kind of got excited.

我注意到每个人都有点兴奋。

And then I think-- I don't know if it was Bleu or Holly walks over to me and says, there was a note attached to the bottle.

然后我想——我不知道是布鲁还是霍莉走到我面前说，瓶子上贴着一张纸条。

And I was like, what?

我当时想，什么？

Is it attached to it, or is it inside of it?

它是附着在它上面，还是在它里面？

It's attached to it.

它附着在它上面。

I think they used the sticker on the bottle to use that adhesive to somehow attach the note to that.

我认为他们使用瓶子上的贴纸来使用粘合剂以某种方式将便条粘在上面。

And then that's what it was wrapped on.

然后这就是它被包裹的地方。

She says, do you want to hold it?

她说，你想抱住吗？

My stomach kind of dropped, and I said, yes.

我的胃有点沉了，我说，是的。

And I'm just holding this note in my hands, and I'm reading it.

我手里拿着这张纸条，正在读它。

I was wondering, can you read that message for me?

我想知道，你能帮我读一下那封信吗？

Yeah, I can.

是的，我可以。

"Good afternoon.

“下午好。

My wife and I have been at OMDC since April 15, 2025.

我和我的妻子自 2025 年 4 月 15 日起一直在 OMDC。

It's cold here all the time, and the food is poor.

这里常年寒冷，食物也很差。

For 290 days, we haven't eaten a single piece of fruit, banana, apple, orange, or anything fresh.

290天以来，我们没有吃过一块水果，香蕉、苹果、橙子或任何新鲜的东西。

We are all in one big room with no doors or windows.

我们都在一间没有门窗的大房间里。

We can't see any grass or trees.

我们看不到任何草或树。

We are all constantly sick.

我们都经常生病。

There is no internet.

没有互联网。

My lawyer was not given my phone calls.

我的律师没有接到我的电话。

Many people here have been sitting for 12, 14, 16, 18 months without a final court decision."

这里的许多人已经坐了 12、14、16、18 个月，而法庭却没有做出最终决定。”

Aisha asked the main organizer, a preschool teacher with bright blue hair named Jeane Wong, is this the first time someone had thrown a note over to them?

艾莎问主要组织者，一位名叫Jeane Wong的亮蓝色头发的幼儿园老师，这是第一次有人向他们扔纸条吗？

And then Jeane tells me that this is not the first note, that there are several notes that they've received, but this is the longest note that they've had.

然后珍妮告诉我，这不是第一张纸条，他们收到了几张纸条，但这是他们收到的最长的纸条。

Most of them have had A-numbers, but she says that this person from inside was so desperate to have their story told that they had actually thrown another bottle with the same exact note earlier that day.

他们中的大多数人都有 A 号码，但她说，这个内部人员非常渴望让他们的故事被讲述，以至于他们实际上在当天早些时候扔了另一个瓶子，上面写着同样的纸条。

What kind of other objects have come over?

还有哪些其他物体过来了？

Lotion bottles, deodorant bottles, and I think even a AA battery.

乳液瓶、除臭剂瓶，我想甚至还有 AA 电池。

Most of what they got that day were A-numbers.

那天他们得到的大部分都是A数字。

Aisha says about 50, mostly from people shouting and throwing bottles over with multiple numbers scrawled on them.

艾莎说大约有 50 个，大部分是因为人们大喊大叫并扔掉了上面写着多个数字的瓶子。

I reached out to CoreCivic about the conditions described in the letter that Aisha read.

我联系了 CoreCivic，了解了艾莎读到的信中描述的情况。

They denied all the allegations, called them flatly false and inconsistent with their standards.

他们否认所有指控，称这些指控完全错误且不符合他们的标准。

There have been reports for decades about inhumane living conditions and poor medical care at Otay Mesa and other ICE detention facilities.

几十年来一直有报道称奥泰梅萨和其他 ICE 拘留设施的生活条件不人道，医疗条件差。

But these problems have gotten a lot worse since President Trump returned to office, because the number of people in detention has increased so dramatically, things like overcrowding, not getting enough food, or getting food that's spoiled, also, physical and verbal abuse from guards.

但自从特朗普总统重返办公室以来，这些问题变得更加严重，因为被拘留的人数急剧增加，比如人满为患、食物不足或食物变质，还有看守的身体和言语虐待。

One of the biggest issues right now-- detainees needing medical treatment and not getting it.

目前最大的问题之一是被拘留者需要医疗却得不到治疗。

Over the past year, the death rate in ICE custody has more than doubled compared to recent years, more than 50 people since President Trump came back to office.

过去一年，ICE 拘留期间的死亡率比近几年增加了一倍多，自特朗普总统重新执政以来已有 50 多人死亡。

One of them was a Haitian man named Emmanuel Damas.

其中之一是海地男子伊曼纽尔·达马斯（Emmanuel Damas）。

He went into septic shock from a toothache.

他因牙痛而出现败血性休克。

It's worth noting that most people in ICE detention facilities do not have a criminal record.

值得注意的是，ICE 拘留所中的大多数人没有犯罪记录。

Crossing the border illegally or overstaying a visa is not a criminal offense.

非法越境或逾期居留不属于刑事犯罪。

It's a civil violation.

这是民事违法行为。

And immigration detention is not supposed to be punitive like a prison.

移民拘留不应该像监狱一样具有惩罚性。

Many immigration lawyers believe the administration is trying to wear people down by holding them for long periods in these harsh conditions, so they'll give up on their cases and agree to deportation.

许多移民律师认为，政府试图通过将人们长期关押在如此恶劣的条件下来让他们疲惫不堪，这样他们就会放弃案件并同意驱逐出境。

While Aisha was there, some of the detainees who'd gotten money put into their accounts sent text messages to the organizers.

当艾莎在那里时，一些账户里存有钱的被拘留者向组织者发送了短信。

They requested music they wanted organizers to blast.

他们要求组织者播放他们希望播放的音乐。

Others wanted their texts read out loud.

其他人希望大声朗读他们的文字。

We just got a text from someone inside, and so she's going to read it for everybody here, OK?

我们刚刚收到了里面有人发来的短信，所以她要给这里的每个人读一下，好吗？

I put it into Google Translate, and it said, are you guys outside?

我把它输入谷歌翻译，它说，你们在外面吗？

We can hear you.

我们能听到你的声音。

We can hear you.

我们能听到你的声音。

We can hear you.

我们能听到你的声音。

We love you.

我们爱你。

Thank you.

谢谢。

[CHEERING, APPLAUSE] Miki Meek At the end of the day, the organizers asked Aisha, please don't publish anything about how we're communicating with detainees.

[欢呼、掌声] Miki Meek 最后，组织者要求艾莎，请不要发布任何有关我们如何与被拘留者沟通的信息。

They worried it would all get shut down.

他们担心这一切都会被关闭。

But then they texted the people inside, including the person who threw over the lotion bottle, and asked what they thought.

但随后他们给里面的人发短信，包括扔掉乳液瓶的人，询问他们的想法。

The answer?

答案是什么呢？

Publish it.

发布它。

The detainees wanted the story out.

被拘留者希望将此事公之于众。

They wanted people to know what was happening.

他们希望人们知道发生了什么。

Aisha's story ran, and then, as predicted, there was retaliation, according to detainees.

据被拘留者称，艾莎的故事流传开来，然后，正如预料的那样，遭到了报复。

They said that CoreCivic turned down temperatures, took away showers, limited tablet access and commissary time, and shut down the yard on Sunday afternoons when the organizers are outside, which means no more messages on bottles thrown over fences.

他们说，CoreCivic 降低了温度，取消了淋浴，限制了平板电脑的使用和小卖部的时间，并在周日下午组织者外出时关闭了院子，这意味着扔过栅栏的瓶子上不再有任何信息。

But it doesn't matter.

但没关系。

The organizers now have enough A-numbers that they're communicating with hundreds of detainees by text.

组织者现在拥有足够的 A 号码，可以通过短信与数百名被拘留者进行联系。

Miki Meek is a producer on our show.

米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 是我们节目的制片人。

When we reached out to CoreCivic, they denied that temperatures inside the facility were kept deliberately uncomfortable, and they said they have a zero-tolerance policy for retaliation against detainees.

当我们联系 CoreCivic 时，他们否认故意让设施内的温度变得不舒服，并表示他们对针对被拘留者的报复采取零容忍政策。

ICE did not respond to our request for comment.

ICE 没有回应我们的置评请求。

You can find more of Aisha Wallace Palomares's reporting at the website, LA Taco.

您可以在 LA Taco 网站上找到艾莎·华莱士·帕洛马雷斯 (Aisha Wallace Palomares) 的更多报道。

["COMING IN ON A WING AND A PRAYER" BY RY COODER]

[“带着翅膀而来，祈祷”，RY COODER 着]

Our program was produced today by Aviva DeKornfeld.

今天我们的节目由 Aviva DeKornfeld 制作。

The people who put together today's show include Adriene Lilly, Molly Marcello, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Ruthie Petitto, Robin Reid, Nadia Reiman, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rumery, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, and Julie Whitaker.

今天节目的制作人包括 Adriene Lilly、Molly Marcello、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Ruthie Petitto、Robin Reid、Nadia Reiman、Anthony Roman、Ryan Rumery、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala 和 Julie Whitaker。

Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.

我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。

Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.

我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。

Serial's new series that we excerpted, The Last 12 Weeks, was produced by Alvin Melathe.

我们摘录的 Serial 新系列《最后 12 周》由阿尔文·梅拉西 (Alvin Melathe) 制作。

The series was edited by Jen Guerra, along with Anita Badejo.

该系列由 Jen Guerra 和 Anita Badejo 编辑。

Additional editing by Julie Snyder, Sarah Koenig, and Akiba Solomon.

由 Julie Snyder、Sarah Koenig 和 Akiba Solomon 进行额外编辑。

Research and fact-checking by Ben Phelan.

本·费兰 (Ben Phelan) 的研究和事实核查。

Scoring by Adam Dorn, a.k.a.

亚当·多恩 (A.K.A.) 配乐

Mocean Worker, Matthias Bossi, and Jon Evans of Stellwagen Symphonette.

Stellwagen Symphonette 的 Mocean Worker、Matthias Bossi 和 Jon Evans。

Additional music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano.

丹·鲍威尔和马里昂·洛扎诺的其他音乐。

Phoebe Wang and Catherine Anderson mixed the show.

菲比·王 (Phoebe Wang) 和凯瑟琳·安德森 (Catherine Anderson) 为演出混音。

Special thanks today to Dr. David Scales, Mark Soloski, Dr. Charlotte Mao, Dr. Eboni Cornish, The San Diego Bike Brigade, The American Bar Association's Immigration Justice Project, The San Diego County Immigrant Legal Defense Program, Mack Miller, Sean Cole, Susan Wessling, Al-Amyn Sumar, Jackson Busch, Ruth Baldwin, Tom Meagher, Rita Radostitz, and Sean Devaney.

今天特别感谢 David Scales 博士、Mark Soloski、Charlotte Mao 博士、Eboni Cornish 博士、圣地亚哥自行车队、美国律师协会移民司法项目、圣地亚哥县移民法律辩护计划、Mack Miller、Sean Cole、Susan Wessling、Al-Amyn Sumar、Jackson Busch、Ruth Baldwin、Tom Meagher、Rita Radostitz 和 Sean Devaney。

Thanks today to This American Life Partners Suzanne Hershey, Leslie Ferrin, Gabrielle Rhode, and Peter James.

今天感谢《美国生活》的合作伙伴苏珊娜·赫希、莱斯利·费林、加布里埃尔·罗德和彼得·詹姆斯。

I hope that you will consider joining them as a Life Partner.

我希望您考虑加入他们作为终身伴侣。

And why?

为什么？

It allows us to keep making the program.

它使我们能够继续制作程序。

A significant part of our budget now comes from our Life Partners.

现在我们预算的很大一部分来自我们的生活伙伴。

We're hoping that number is going to grow.

我们希望这个数字会增长。

To thank you, we'll give you dozens of bonus episodes that we've made that have come out so nicely.

为了感谢您，我们将为您提供数十个我们制作的奖励剧集，这些剧集的效果都非常好。

Try it, and you'll see.

尝试一下，你就会看到。

To join, go to thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.

如需加入，请访问 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners。

The link is also in the show notes.

该链接也在节目注释中。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

People are always walking up to him and asking him, how do I get into radio?

人们总是走到他面前问他，我怎样才能进入广播行业？

And he always tells them--

他总是告诉他们——

So I mean, right away, the antennas go up.

所以我的意思是，天线立即升起。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

["COMING IN ON A WING AND A PRAYER" BY RY COODER]

[“带着翅膀而来，祈祷”，RY COODER 着]

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。