885: Bless This Mess - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #885 | April 10, 2026 885: Bless This Mess Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 885 集 | 2026 年 4 月 10 日 885：祝福这一切 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Emanuele Berry From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Emanuele Berry，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Emanuele Berry sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 的埃马努埃莱·贝里 (Emanuele Berry)。
As a middle schooler, there was always one channel I wanted to watch-- TCM, the Turner Classic Movie channel, an entire channel dedicated to old movies from Hollywood's golden age.
作为一名中学生，我一直想看一个频道——TCM，特纳经典电影频道，一个专门播放好莱坞黄金时代老电影的频道。
I loved these films-- The Lady Eve, On the Town, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington-- shout-out to my boy, Jimmy Stewart.
我喜欢这些电影——《伊芙女士》、《小镇上》、《史密斯先生去华盛顿》——向我的儿子吉米·斯图尔特大声喊叫。
I was fascinated by the dramatics, the over-the-top slaps, the sultry looks, the glamorous makeup and hairstyles.
我被戏剧性的场面、过分的耳光、性感的外表、迷人的妆容和发型迷住了。
To my delight, I recently learned that I was not the only Black middle schooler spending her spare time glued to this channel.
令我高兴的是，我最近了解到我并不是唯一一个将业余时间花在这个频道上的黑人中学生。
Nichole Hill was also sat.
妮可·希尔也坐着。
Anything with Bette Davis, I was like, her eyes are so big, and she's so bad, and I, like, need to watch everything that she does.
贝蒂·戴维斯的任何事情，我都想，她的眼睛太大了，而且她太坏了，我喜欢看她所做的一切。
Marlon Brando was my first really big crush, and Guys and Dolls was my obsession.
马龙·白兰度是我第一个真正迷恋的人，《红男绿女》是我的痴迷。
And I used to, every Friday night-- God bless my mom and my aunt.
我曾经，每个星期五晚上——上帝保佑我的妈妈和我的阿姨。
I would invite them up to my room, and we would do a viewing of Guys and Dolls, like, every single Friday.
我会邀请他们到我的房间，我们会看《红男绿女》，就像每个星期五一样。
And I would share new facts that I had learned about--
我会分享我学到的新事实——
Like what?
比如什么？
Nichole Hill OK, so I mean, this is a very basic fact, but Marlon Brando and Frank Sinatra hated each other.
妮可·希尔（Nichole Hill）好吧，所以我的意思是，这是一个非常基本的事实，但马龙·白兰度和弗兰克·西纳特拉互相讨厌。
And there's this scene where Frank Sinatra has to eat cheesecake, and he really hates cheesecake.
在这个场景中，弗兰克·辛纳屈必须吃芝士蛋糕，而他真的很讨厌芝士蛋糕。
And so Marlon Brando keeps messing up the scene so that Frank Sinatra has to keep eating the cheesecake.
所以马龙·白兰度不断地搞乱场面，弗兰克·西纳特拉不得不继续吃芝士蛋糕。
And I was like, oh, they are so dramatic.
我当时想，哦，他们太戏剧化了。
Oh, my god, the behind the scenes.
天啊，幕后花絮。
Whenever I talk with Nichole, she always has some fact like this.
每当我和妮科尔谈话时，她总是有这样的事实。
You mention some historical figure, an actor, heck, even a mutual friend, and she'll tell you some obscure detail that you've never heard before.
你提到某个历史人物，一个演员，甚至是一个共同的朋友，她会告诉你一些你以前从未听说过的晦涩细节。
She's always clocking these things.
她总是记录这些事情。
I think it's why, as a kid, she noticed something about these movies that I never did.
我想这就是为什么她小时候注意到了这些电影中一些我从未注意到的东西。
I remember the first time I noticed that I didn't want to see a Black person in the films because of the way they were going to show up, which was Gone With the Wind.
我记得第一次注意到我不想在电影中看到黑人，因为他们的出现方式是《乱世佳人》。
And I remember not knowing anything about Hattie McDaniel's history.
我记得我对海蒂·麦克丹尼尔的历史一无所知。
Hattie McDaniel plays Mammy, an enslaved house servant.
海蒂·麦克丹尼尔饰演妈妈，一个被奴役的家庭仆人。
I just remember feeling really ashamed of, that's what I would have been.
我只记得我感到非常羞愧，我本来也会如此。
I was going to these movies as a form of escapism.
我去看这些电影是为了逃避现实。
And then whenever Black people showed up in the movies, they were always serving.
然后每当黑人出现在电影中时，他们总是在服务。
They were always poor.
他们总是很穷。
They were always versions of myself that maybe I feared.
他们总是我自己的版本，也许是我所害怕的。
I was like, I don't-- no, no, no, no, I don't want to grow up and be that.
我当时想，我不想——不，不，不，不，我不想长大后成为那样。
That's not-- well, that's not-- you want to be out on the town with Marlon Brando.
那不是——嗯，那不是——你想和马龙·白兰度一起去城里。
You don't want to be Scarlett O'Hara's maid.
你不想成为斯嘉丽·奥哈拉的女仆。
Yeah.
是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
That's exactly it.
就是这样。
So I was sort of like, oh, man, I see them in the background being, like, porters and maids and things.
所以我有点像，哦，伙计，我在背景中看到他们，就像搬运工、女仆之类的。
And I would sort of picture, like, them getting on a train.
我会想象他们登上火车的画面。
They're in New York City.
他们在纽约市。
They get on the train, they go home, and then I was like, and then what?
他们上了火车，回家了，然后我就想，然后呢？
"And then what?" became this question that drove Nichole.
“然后呢？”这个问题驱使着妮可。
It stayed in her mind for years.
多年来，这件事一直留在她的脑海里。
What would it look like if you got on the train and followed those characters home, and went with those actors into their real lives off stage, and the lives of their families, their community?
如果你坐上火车，跟随那些角色回家，和那些演员一起走进他们舞台下的真实生活，以及他们的家庭、他们的社区的生活，会是什么样子？
What was the Black version of the diva-on-diva cheesecake showdown?
女主角与女主角芝士蛋糕对决的黑人版本是什么？
Whose passions and jealousies were people gossiping about?
人们在闲聊谁的激情和嫉妒？
Where could she find those details, that drama?
她在哪里可以找到那些细节、那出戏？
A couple years ago, Nichole was searching through Black newspapers from the 1930s through '60s, researching for her job at the time.
几年前，Nichole 正在翻阅 1930 年代至 60 年代的黑人报纸，寻找当时的工作。
And Nichole, being Nichole, ended up deep in online news archives and in backrooms of university libraries-- looked at all the microfiches, tried to get her hands on any and every archival Black paper, from the Chicago Defender to the Detroit Tribune to the Washington Afro-American.
尼科尔，就是尼科尔，最终深入到了在线新闻档案馆和大学图书馆的密室——查看了所有缩微胶片，试图拿到所有的黑纸档案，从《芝加哥捍卫者报》到《底特律论坛报》再到《华盛顿非裔美国人报》。
And this is where she got the answer to her question, "and then what?" It was all in there-- the drama, the details, the lives.
这就是她问题的答案：“然后呢？”一切都在那里——戏剧、细节、生活。
Like this, from a 1938 paper.
像这样，来自 1938 年的一篇论文。
I will always remember the first thing I noticed is a woman in a bathing suit.
我永远记得我注意到的第一件事是一个穿着泳衣的女人。
And they're saying, pretty hot, eh?
他们说，很热，是吗？
or something like that.
或类似的东西。
And then, on the side, they're talking about this baseball player that they'd run out of town because he'd been talking wild, and they're talking about voting.
然后，在一旁，他们正在谈论这位棒球运动员，他们因为他一直在胡言乱语而被赶出城，他们正在谈论投票。
And then I keep flipping through, and they're talking about dating, and they're talking about-- people are giving one another advice.
然后我继续翻阅，他们在谈论约会，他们在谈论——人们互相给对方建议。
The paper had an advice column.
该报有一个建议专栏。
It was called the "Court of Afro Relations."
它被称为“非洲关系法院”。
And they have a picture of a judge.
他们有一张法官的照片。
And so you write in, and then the judge tells you-- like, gives you advice for how you should handle it.
所以你写下来，然后法官告诉你——比如，给你建议如何处理它。
And so there's a woman, and she is married, and her sister is in town.
有一个女人，她已经结婚了，她的姐姐也在城里。
And her sister is seeing a married man.
她姐姐正在和一个已婚男人约会。
OK.
好的。
Nichole Hill I might be conflating two stories, but there was some type of confrontation at church between the mistress and the wife, and it involved an umbrella.
妮可·希尔（Nichole Hill）我可能把两个故事混为一谈，但情妇和妻子在教堂里发生了某种类型的对抗，其中涉及一把雨伞。
At church.
在教堂。
And like, a love triangle.
就像三角恋一样。
And there was another one where it was-- this guy wanted to marry this girl, but she loved to spend money, and she likes the fancier things in life.
还有一个就是——这个男人想娶这个女孩，但她喜欢花钱，而且她喜欢生活中更花哨的东西。
And he's like, oh, my gosh, what should I do?
他说，哦，天哪，我该怎么办？
And they were just like, she needs to get it together.
他们就像，她需要把它放在一起。
Why is she spending all that money?
她为什么要花那么多钱？
[LAUGHTER] I'm like, oh, my gosh.
[笑声] 我想，哦，天哪。
This is what they were doing when they went home.
这就是他们回家时所做的事情。
Almost every country everywhere has argued about its history at some point.
几乎每个国家都曾在某个时刻对其历史争论过。
We are certainly in one of those moments right now.
我们现在肯定正处于这样的时刻之一。
A couple of months after Trump entered office, he issued an executive order called Restoring Truth and Sanity to American History.
特朗普上任几个月后，他发布了一项名为“恢复美国历史的真相和理智”的行政命令。
The order basically says, stop disparaging America.
该命令基本上是说，停止贬低美国。
Focus on its achievements, its greatness.
关注它的成就和伟大。
Or, as I read it, just get rid of all the mess.
或者，正如我读到的那样，只是摆脱所有的混乱。
So like, George Washington?
就像乔治华盛顿一样？
He's great, but maybe don't mention the Black people he enslaved.
他很棒，但也许不要提他奴役的黑人。
Personally, I want to know about that kind of mess-- not just the fact that Washington enslaved Black people.
就我个人而言，我想了解这种混乱，而不仅仅是华盛顿奴役黑人的事实。
I want to know who those people were and the details of their lives.
我想知道那些人是谁以及他们的生活细节。
I want to know about all of our ancestors' mess.
我想知道我们祖先的所有混乱。
So that's what we're going to do today, and there's no one I'd rather do this with than Nichole Hill-- detail hunter, amateur historian, renowned gossip.
这就是我们今天要做的事情，没有人比尼科尔·希尔更愿意和我一起做这件事——细节猎人、业余历史学家、著名的八卦人士。
She is going to take us inside a very big American life, a man who became one of the most famous people in the world, and then all of a sudden, was not.
她将带我们走进一个非常广阔的美国生活，一个成为世界上最著名的人之一的人，然后突然间，他就不再是世界上最有名的人了。
This story is hilarious and moving, and it is very messy.
这个故事搞笑又感人，而且很乱。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
It's This American Life, Act 1, "The Was It Couple."
这就是美国生活，第一幕，“这对夫妇”。
So Nichole Hill has a podcast that I love called Our Ancestors Were Messy.
妮可·希尔 (Nichole Hill) 有一个我喜欢的播客，名为“我们的祖先很混乱”。
Every show is a true-life saga that she tells someone.
每场演出都是她向某人讲述的真实生活传奇。
And there's, of course, drama, and glamour, and heartbreak, and poor judgment-- all the best ingredients.
当然，还有戏剧性、魅力、心碎和糟糕的判断力——所有这些都是最好的成分。
Some of these stories are about capital F Famous people-- Langston Hughes, Zora Neale Hurston-- and Paul Robeson.
其中一些故事是关于资本 F 名人——兰斯顿·休斯、佐拉·尼尔·赫斯顿——和保罗·罗伯森。
Paul Robeson exists in this weird twilight, right?
保罗·罗伯逊就存在于这个奇怪的暮色中，对吗？
I think he's still famous enough that a lot of people know his name, but probably in a way that's like, oh, yeah, he sang that song, right?
我认为他仍然足够出名，很多人都知道他的名字，但可能在某种程度上，哦，是的，他唱了那首歌，对吧？
"Old Man River."
“老人河。”
And it is shocking, as you'll see, that this is all that's left, because Paul Robeson was so famous.
正如您将看到的，令人震惊的是，这就是剩下的一切，因为保罗·罗伯逊是如此出名。
Like, I can't even think of a modern celebrity to match how big he was.
就像，我什至想不出有哪个现代名人能与他的身材相匹配。
He was an athlete, an actor, a singer.
他是一名运动员、演员、歌手。
It's like, he would have sung the National Anthem at the beginning of the Super Bowl, played in the football game, and then performed the halftime show.
就像，他会在超级碗开始时唱国歌，参加橄榄球比赛，然后表演中场表演。
He was also a lawyer and spoke a bunch of languages, including Russian, Greek, Swahili, and French.
他还是一名律师，会讲多种语言，包括俄语、希腊语、斯瓦希里语和法语。
His wife, Eslanda Robeson-- Essie for short-- was also famous, and also an "everything-at-once" type person-- scientist, writer, anthropologist.
他的妻子埃斯兰达·罗伯森（Eslanda Robeson，简称埃西）也很有名，也是一位“同时拥有一切”的人——科学家、作家、人类学家。
So what the hell happened to these two superstars that now, America barely knows who they are?
那么这两位超级巨星到底发生了什么，现在美国几乎不知道他们是谁？
Well, you will find out not just what happened, but also how and why, and you'll see what a marriage between two superstars looks like, inside and out.
好吧，您不仅会发现发生了什么，还会了解发生的方式和原因，并且您会看到两个超级巨星之间的婚姻从里到外是什么样子。
Basically, we're going to kiki and catch up on all the drama of the Robesons.
基本上，我们要追看罗伯逊一家的所有戏剧。
Here's Nichole and her guest, author Jason Reynolds, with her show, Our Ancestors Were Messy.
这是妮可和她的嘉宾、作家杰森·雷诺兹正在观看她的节目《我们的祖先很混乱》。
The Secret Adventures of Black People presents, Our Ancestors Were Messy.
《黑人的秘密历险记》呈现《我们的祖先很混乱》。
Today, witness a roaring '20s meet cute.
今天，见证咆哮的20岁与可爱的邂逅。
He was dirty macking.
他很脏。
Chioke I'anson This episode stars novelist, poet, and bona fide genius, as in MacArthur Genius, Jason Reynolds, and your host, Nichole Hill.
奇奥克·伊安森 本集由小说家、诗人和真正的天才主演，如麦克阿瑟天才、杰森·雷诺兹和主持人尼科尔·希尔。
Live in front of a studio audience in a living room in Washington, DC, this is Our Ancestors Were Messy--
在华盛顿特区的客厅里，在演播室观众面前现场表演，这是《我们的祖先很混乱》——
--a show about our ancestors and all their drama.
——一部关于我们的祖先和他们所有戏剧的节目。
[APPLAUSE] Nichole Hill OK, hi, everyone.
[掌声] 妮可·希尔 好的，大家好。
Welcome to the salon recording of Our Ancestors Were Messy.
欢迎来到《我们的祖先很凌乱》的沙龙录音。
Thank you so much for being here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
Oh, my god, I'm so excited.
哦，天哪，我太兴奋了。
I just had, like, 10 thoughts run through my head.
我脑子里突然闪过大概 10 个想法。
OK, so this is Jason Reynolds.
好的，这是杰森·雷诺兹。
Hi, everybody.
大家好。
Nichole Hill This is my guest for today.
妮可·希尔 这是我今天的客人。
You have a beautiful and very impressive resume.
你有一份漂亮且令人印象深刻的简历。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Nichole Hill I'm not going to-- I won't do that to you.
Nichole Hill 我不会——我不会那样对你。
So I'm going to tell Jason a story.
所以我要给杰森讲一个故事。
I want you to imagine-- we're going to just do this little exercise here.
我想让你想象一下——我们将在这里做这个小练习。
If somebody were to be given a Black history report, like the average American on the street, any age, you give them a Black history report.
如果有人要得到一份黑人历史报告，就像街上的普通美国人一样，无论什么年龄，你都会给他们一份黑人历史报告。
You say, I want you to do it on Paul Robeson.
你说，我希望你对保罗·罗伯逊这么做。
What do you think that they would say?
你认为他们会说什么？
Yeah, I think that the average American has no idea that Paul Robeson ever lived.
是的，我认为普通美国人并不知道保罗·罗伯逊曾经存在过。
If they've heard of him, I think they'd probably say he was an actor, but they would know that he had something to do with a freedom fight of sorts, I think.
如果他们听说过他，我想他们可能会说他是一名演员，但我想他们会知道他与某种自由斗争有关。
Yeah.
是的。
I think people know he's an important figure, but they probably don't know why.
我认为人们知道他是一个重要人物，但他们可能不知道为什么。
So Jason, I'm going to tell you Paul's story in four parts.
杰森，我将分四个部分向您讲述保罗的故事。
This is how we came to know, to love, to fear, and to forget the revolutionary Robesons.
这就是我们如何认识、喜爱、恐惧和忘记革命的罗伯逊一家。
So first, how we came to know the Robesons.
首先，我们是如何认识罗伯逊一家的。
The year is 1920.
时间是1920年。
We're in Harlem.
我们在哈林区。
It's summertime, and 24-year-old Eslanda Cardozo-Goode, or Essie, as everyone calls her, she lives with her best friend, Minnie Sumner, in a tiny studio near all the action.
夏天到了，24 岁的埃斯兰达·卡多佐-古德（Eslanda Cardozo-Goode）（大家都这样称呼她为埃西（Essie））和她最好的朋友米妮·萨姆纳（Minnie Sumner）住在靠近所有活动场所的一个小工作室里。
They're, like, in it in Harlem.
他们就像在哈莱姆区一样。
By day, Essie is a level-headed chemistry major at Columbia University.
白天，埃西是哥伦比亚大学化学专业的一名头脑冷静的学生。
She's studying to be a doctor at the Teachers College.
她正在师范学院学习成为一名医生。
She's also dating a doctor at Harlem Hospital.
她还和哈莱姆医院的一位医生约会。
She's pledged Delta and is a descendant of one of the elite Black families in DC, known as the First Families.
她宣誓加入三角洲，是华盛顿特区一个黑人精英家庭（被称为“第一家庭”）的后裔。
By night, she and her roomie Minnie are throwing ragers.
到了晚上，她和她的室友米妮正在发怒。
They're known around Harlem for how wild their parties get and for Essie's bathtub gin that would reportedly mess you up.
他们在哈莱姆区因派对的疯狂程度而闻名，而且据称 Essie 的浴缸杜松子酒会让你一团糟。
So she is vibrant.
所以她充满活力。
She's opinionated.
她很有主见。
She's hot.
她很热。
Who could play her?
谁能扮演她？
This is a picture of her.
这是她的照片。
Who do you think could play her?
你觉得谁能扮演她？
A young Halle Berry.
年轻时的哈莉·贝瑞。
Nichole Hill Oh, yeah?
妮可·希尔 哦，是吗？
We always going like Halle Berry, man.
我们总是像哈莉·贝瑞那样，伙计。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Essie enrolls in a summer course at Columbia.
艾西报名参加了哥伦比亚大学的暑期课程。
She shows up to class and spots a 22-year-old nicknamed Harlem's Darling.
她出现在课堂上，发现了一位绰号为“哈莱姆区亲爱的”的 22 岁学生。
This is Mr. Paul Robeson.
这是保罗·罗伯逊先生。
He's 6'3".
他身高 6 英尺 3 英寸。
He's chocolate.
他是巧克力。
He's got a smile.
他脸上带着微笑。
He's got a voice.
他有声音。
He's studying at Columbia Law and playing in the NFL, which, doing both at the same time is obviously wild.
他一边在哥伦比亚大学法学院学习，一边在 NFL 打球，同时做这两件事显然很疯狂。
He's pledged Alpha.
他已经向阿尔法发誓了。
Who could play him?
谁能扮演他？
Oof, that's a tough one.
噢，那是一件很难的事。
What about the young brother who played in Sinners, who played the guitar?
那在《罪人》中弹吉他的小弟弟呢？
Yes, Miles something.
是的，迈尔斯什么的。
Yeah.
是的。
Jason Reynolds Miles something, yeah.
杰森·雷诺兹·迈尔斯，是的。
Maybe that young brother could pull it off.
也许那个年轻的兄弟能成功。
Man, the pressure.
人啊，压力啊。
I felt the pressure.
我感受到了压力。
I felt the pressure.
我感受到了压力。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
Look at that.
看看那个。
We're going to give him the role of a lifetime.
我们将给他一个终生难忘的角色。
The role that-- Nichole Hill That was the role of a lifetime, the second role.
这个角色——妮可·希尔 (Nichole Hill) 这是我一生中扮演的第二个角色。
Yeah.
是的。
OK, so we're going to picture Miles.
好的，我们要想象一下迈尔斯。
So Essie's seeing a doctor, and Paul is seeing, like, all of the women of Harlem.
埃西正在看医生，而保罗正在看哈莱姆区的所有女性。
So they're just friends, friends who go out to dinners and to the all-Negro tennis matches and to plays, some starring Paul, because he's an actor.
所以他们只是朋友，出去吃饭、看全黑人网球比赛和戏剧的朋友，有些是保罗主演的，因为他是演员。
He's pretty good at it.
他很擅长。
They're just two friends taking in post-World War I Harlem.
他们只是住在第一次世界大战后的哈莱姆区的两个朋友。
Somewhere along the way, if you can believe it, Essie and Paul become more than friends.
一路走来，如果你相信的话，埃西和保罗已经不仅仅是朋友了。
I know, nobody saw that coming.
我知道，没有人预见到这一点。
I know how shocking it is.
我知道这是多么令人震惊。
She dumps her boyfriend, and he dumps all the women of Harlem.
她抛弃了她的男朋友，而他抛弃了哈莱姆区的所有女人。
Leave that man.
离开那个男人。
Nichole Hill They dump all their people, and our ancestors start dating.
妮可·希尔 他们抛弃了所有的人，我们的祖先开始约会。
People are like, OK, but do not get married, because this is the thing.
人们会说，好吧，但不要结婚，因为事情就是这样。
His boys think that she is too ambitious.
他的男孩们认为她野心太大。
Her girls say that he's a player.
她的女儿们说他是一名球员。
Plus, Essie and Paul, by their own admission, argue a lot.
另外，埃西和保罗自己也承认，他们经常争吵。
They're opposites in temperament, in style, in height.
他们在气质、风格、身高上都是相反的。
They also want an unconventional arrangement where instead of man and wife, they are going to be equals.
他们还想要一种非常规的安排，让他们不再是男人和妻子，而是平等的。
So one rainy day in August 1921, a year after they started hanging out, Paul and Essie elope.
1921 年 8 月的一个雨天，即保罗和埃西开始交往一年后，他们私奔了。
They move into a tiny apartment in Harlem.
他们搬进了哈莱姆区的一间小公寓。
Their friends and family are like, God bless.
他们的朋友和家人都说，上帝保佑。
So Paul is studying to be a lawyer, which is a huge deal for many reasons, not least of which because he and Essie are the first generation to come up in an America without slavery.
因此，保罗正在学习成为一名律师，出于多种原因，这是一件大事，尤其是因为他和埃西是在没有奴隶制的美国出生的第一代人。
His dad was actually born enslaved and then escaped on the Underground Railroad as a teenager.
他的父亲实际上生来就是奴隶，十几岁时通过地下铁路逃亡。
All around them, Americans are trying to figure out a way to beat Jim Crow, and Paul hopes to do his part as a lawyer.
在他们周围，美国人都在想办法打败种族隔离法，而保罗则希望尽自己作为一名律师的职责。
So while Paul is studying, Essie supports the couple as the first Black woman to lead a lab at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital.
因此，在保罗学习期间，埃西支持这对夫妇，成为哥伦比亚长老会医院实验室的第一位黑人女性领导者。
Paul lands a job at a law firm, where he's subjected to all kinds of racism, all kinds of indignities.
保罗在一家律师事务所找到了一份工作，在那里他遭受了各种种族主义和侮辱。
They hate that, so Essie is like, Paul, you know what you should do?
他们讨厌这样，所以埃西说，保罗，你知道你应该做什么吗？
You should quit being a lawyer, and you should become a full-time actor.
你应该放弃律师的职业，而应该成为一名全职演员。
Paul is like, what are you even talking about?
保罗说，你到底在说什么？
But she's like, no, no, no. I think you're a generational talent.
但她就像，不，不，不。我认为您是一代才俊。
I see something here.
我在这里看到了一些东西。
And so she stays on him for years until he does it.
所以她会在他身上待了很多年，直到他这么做为止。
She becomes his manager, publicist, acting coach on top of her day job.
除了日常工作之外，她还成为了他的经理、公关、表演教练。
Can we pause?
我们可以暂停一下吗？
Can we just pause for a second?
我们可以暂停一下吗？
[LAUGHTER] We should pause for a second and talk about Essie.
[笑声]我们应该暂停一下，谈谈埃西。
Yeah, what are you feeling?
是啊，你感觉怎么样？
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
Tell us where you're at.
告诉我们你在哪里。
So Essie said, listen.
所以埃西说，听着。
I know you're a lawyer, which still in America is one of the most prestigious jobs one might have.
我知道你是一名律师，这在美国仍然是最有声望的工作之一。
But I think you should quit to become an actor.
但我认为你应该放弃成为一名演员。
Full time.
全职。
Jason Reynolds Because she believed.
杰森·雷诺兹 因为她相信。
I just want-- she deserves round of applause.
我只想——她值得掌声。
I appreciate-- that's amazing, because, I mean, that's a different-- you think about the time.
我很欣赏——这太棒了，因为，我的意思是，这是一个不同的——你想想时间。
That's a pretty bold risk.
这是一个相当大胆的风险。
Yes.
是的。
Jason Reynolds But what an incredible example of love and support.
杰森·雷诺兹 这是一个多么令人难以置信的爱与支持的例子啊。
I mean, I also have a serious, serious commitment to Black women for this reason, I think.
我的意思是，我想，出于这个原因，我也对黑人女性做出了认真、认真的承诺。
Because I also think that we live in this time now.
因为我也认为我们现在生活在这个时代。
It's funny, we're talking about our ancestors, but we live in a time where the internet has convinced us that we all hate each other--
有趣的是，我们正在谈论我们的祖先，但我们生活在一个互联网让我们相信我们都互相憎恨的时代——
Yes.
是的。
Jason Reynolds --that we all are terrible to one another.
杰森·雷诺兹——我们彼此之间都很糟糕。
Black women are terrible.
黑人女性太可怕了。
Black men are terrible.
黑人太可怕了
We're all terrible.
我们都很可怕。
And I just-- we've always been awesome.
我只是——我们一直都很棒。
Things have always been tricky.
事情总是很棘手。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Jason Reynolds But we've always been supportive and loving.
Jason Reynolds 但我们一直都支持和热爱。
And I just want to say to Essie, like, it does my heart good to know that somebody would say, you know what?
我只想对 Essie 说，知道有人会说，你知道吗？
They're killing you at work.
他们在工作中害死你。
And I know where your heart is.
我知道你的心在哪里。
I know what you're capable of.
我知道你有什么能力。
Yes.
是的。
Jason Reynolds And so I'm going to go ahead and pour this into you.
杰森·雷诺兹：所以我要继续把这个倒给你。
Yes.
是的。
Jason Reynolds Now, I'm hoping as the story unfolds-- you know what I'm saying?
杰森·雷诺兹 现在，我希望随着故事的展开——你知道我在说什么吗？
Because I know how it go.
因为我知道事情会怎样发展。
So I'm hoping that my man hold us.
所以我希望我的男人能抓住我们。
Come on, Paul.
来吧，保罗。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
For the next four years, our 20-something-year-old ancestors grind.
接下来的四年里，我们20多岁的祖先们辛苦劳作。
Paul's profile and his star rise and rise until everyone is talking about Paul Robeson.
保罗的形象和他的明星地位不断上升，直到每个人都在谈论保罗·罗伯逊。
In 1925, he lands his first film role in a movie called Body and Soul, directed by the hardest-working man in cinema, Oscar Micheaux.
1925 年，他在一部名为《肉体与灵魂》的电影中获得了他的第一个电影角色，该电影由电影界最勤奋的人奥斯卡·米肖 (Oscar Micheaux) 执导。
And between Paul's acting skills and Essie's PR brilliance, they score invites to house parties in Harlem, where they could have run into the likes of Louis Armstrong or Josephine Baker.
凭借保罗的演技和埃西的公关才华，他们获得了哈莱姆区家庭聚会的邀请，在那里他们可能会遇到路易斯·阿姆斯特朗或约瑟芬·贝克这样的人。
And they're like, let's go.
他们说，我们走吧。
So in the movie version, it's wintertime.
所以在电影版本中，现在是冬天。
They get to a house.
他们到达一所房子。
They take off their jackets.
他们脱掉夹克。
They put it in the back room.
他们把它放在后面的房间里。
It's packed.
已经装满了。
It's a Harlem brownstone, so it's loud.
这是哈林区的褐石建筑，所以很吵。
It smells like booze.
闻起来像酒味。
All around them, people are talking about art, and jazz, and dance.
在他们周围，人们正在谈论艺术、爵士乐和舞蹈。
Our ancestors stop in on a conversation about a thing that we all think of when I say the Harlem Renaissance.
当我提到哈莱姆文艺复兴时，我们的祖先就会停下来谈论我们都会想到的事情。
You know it.
你知道的。
You love it.
你喜欢它。
Let's say it together-- 1, 2, 3-- the Russian Revolution and the rise of communism.
让我们一起说——1、2、3——俄国革命和共产主义的兴起。
I was going to say jazz.
我本来想说爵士乐。
I was going with jazz, but you know.
我本来想听爵士乐，但你知道。
Chioke I'anson For centuries, Russia's labor system of choice was serfdom.
Chioke I'anson 几个世纪以来，俄罗斯选择的劳动制度是农奴制。
Everyone always points out that it's not slavery.
每个人总是指出这不是奴隶制。
Peasants were just legally bound to the land they were born onto, and they had to work that land, and couldn't leave, or change jobs, or travel, or marry without the landlord's permission.
农民只是在法律上受到他们出生的土地的约束，他们必须在这片土地上劳作，未经地主许可，不能离开、换工作、旅行或结婚。
But the landlord didn't own the people, just the land.
但地主并不拥有人民，只拥有土地。
Russian czars kept this up until around the time of America's Civil War.
俄罗斯沙皇一直保持这种状态，直到美国内战时期。
Then they freed the serfs, who were not slaves, but left them with no resources and forced them to live under Jim Crow-esque restrictions.
然后他们释放了农奴，他们不是奴隶，但让他们没有任何资源，并强迫他们生活在吉姆·克劳式的限制之下。
Black people around the world began to identify with Russian serfs.
世界各地的黑人开始认同俄罗斯农奴。
In 1917, Communist Party leader Vladimir Lenin, with the help of the peasants, labor unions, and soldiers, overthrows Russia's czar and forms the newest, largest country in the world, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
1917年，共产党领导人弗拉基米尔·列宁在农民、工会和士兵的帮助下，推翻了俄罗斯沙皇，建立了世界上最新、最大的国家——苏维埃社会主义共和国联盟。
The USSR bills itself as a worker's utopia without capitalism, colonialism, or racial hierarchies.
苏联标榜自己是一个没有资本主义、殖民主义或种族等级制度的工人乌托邦。
Black people across the diaspora, including Paul Robeson, are so into this.
包括保罗·罗伯逊在内的海外侨民的黑人对此非常热衷。
Now, I know when we think of Harlem Renaissance-era Black folks, we don't really think, oh, yeah, super into Russia.
现在，我知道，当我们想到哈莱姆文艺复兴时期的黑人时，我们并没有真正想到，哦，是的，超级喜欢俄罗斯。
But the Soviet Union is promising to be a place that's going to be free of racism and a haven for workers.
但苏联承诺成为一个没有种族主义的地方和工人的避风港。
So while Paul and Essie are taking in these ideas about Russia, his success as an actor continues to grow.
因此，当保罗和埃西接受这些关于俄罗斯的想法时，他作为演员的成功仍在继续增长。
The couple moves to London, and Essie quits her job to manage him full-time, so goodbye being a doctor.
这对夫妇搬到了伦敦，埃西辞去了工作来全职照顾他，从此告别了医生的生活。
Paul lands his career-defining role in the musical Showboat, where he sings what will become his signature song, "Old Man River." I think we all know it.
保罗在音乐剧《Showboat》中扮演了他职业生涯的决定性角色，在那里他演唱了后来成为他的标志性歌曲“Old Man River”。我想我们都知道。
Should we all sing it together right now?
我们现在应该一起唱吗？
(SINGING) Old man river.
（唱）老人河。
Nichole Hill Oh.
妮可·希尔哦。
That's the only part I remember.
这是我唯一记得的部分。
That's how it starts.
事情就是这样开始的。
That's the melody, you know what I mean?
这就是旋律，你明白我的意思吗？
(SINGING) Dat ol' man river That ol' man river
（歌唱）那条曼河 那条曼河
He mus' know somethin' But don't say nothin'
他一定知道一些事情，但不要说什么
He just keeps rollin' He keeps on rolling along
他一直在滚动 他一直在滚动
People cannot believe his voice.
人们不敢相信他的声音。
America's number-one Black newspaper, the Chicago Defender, celebrates him as a generational talent.
美国排名第一的黑人报纸《芝加哥捍卫者报》称赞他是一代天才。
Essie's like, I already knew that.
埃西说，我已经知道了。
Essie and Paul spend the rest of their 20s traveling Europe for his plays and experiencing being Black outside of America.
埃西 (Essie) 和保罗 (Paul) 二十多岁的余生都在欧洲旅行，观看他的戏剧，并体验美国以外的黑人生活。
They say it's divine.
他们说这是神圣的。
Essie is trying absinthe in Paris.
埃西正在巴黎尝试苦艾酒。
Paul is studying every language.
保罗正在研究各种语言。
He's posing nude.
他正在裸体摆姿势。
Like, they're Bohemians.
就像，他们是波西米亚人。
Then in 1927, Essie gets pregnant.
1927 年，埃西怀孕了。
She delivers an 11-pound baby boy.
她生下了一个 11 磅重的男婴。
[AUDIENCE GROANING] They name him Paul Robeson Jr. Essie calls him Paulie for short.
[观众呻吟]他们给他起名叫小保罗·罗伯逊。埃西简称他为保利。
She's in love.
她恋爱了。
But in the background of all this, she's dealing with the fact that Paul is cheating on her.
但在这一切的背景下，她正在面对保罗欺骗她的事实。
Come on, Paul.
来吧，保罗。
Oh.
哦。
Nichole Hill Yeah.
妮可·希尔 是的。
Essie sort of knew that there were always other women, but he'd been keeping it on the low before.
埃西多少知道总会有其他女人，但他以前一直保持低调。
Then one day, he comes to her, and he's like, Essie.
然后有一天，他来找她，他就像，埃西。
I love you so much.
我非常爱你。
We both said we want an unconventional relationship.
我们都说我们想要一种非传统的关系。
Why don't we open up our marriage?
我们为什么不公开我们的婚姻呢？
The room has feelings.
房间里有感情。
Jason Reynolds This man been dead forever.
杰森·雷诺兹 这个人已经永远死了。
[LAUGHTER] Like, it's not-- it's not happening right now.
[笑声] 就像，这不是——现在还没有发生。
He's also seeing, among others-- he's also seeing, among others, a wealthy white British party girl named Yolande Jackson.
他还见到了一位富有的英国白人派对女郎，名叫约兰德·杰克逊（Yolande Jackson）。
She's described as just fun, and carefree, and a sometimes actress.
她被描述为一个有趣、无忧无虑的人，有时还像个演员。
Between the women, and the fame, and his growing activism, Paul is getting sloppy.
在女人、名气和他日益增长的激进主义之间，保罗变得越来越草率。
The papers catch wind, and they're speculating that he wants to marry Yolande.
报纸上风声大作，他们猜测他想娶约兰德。
Plus, Essie is finding love notes.
另外，埃西正在寻找爱情笔记。
She's pissed.
她很生气。
So what would be your advice to our Auntie Essie, as a man, about how she should navigate this conversation with Paul?
那么，作为一个男人，你对我们的埃西阿姨应该如何引导与保罗的对话有什么建议呢？
She does not want to leave him.
她不想离开他。
She built him.
她塑造了他。
She did.
她做到了。
She doesn't want to leave her husband.
她不想离开她的丈夫。
I've only got toxic advice-- in this moment.
此刻我得到的只是有毒的建议。
Normally not, but in this moment, I'm like, go get you some on the side.
通常不会，但此时此刻，我想，去给你买点吧。
Oh.
哦。
Jason Reynolds Like, I don't know what else they-- like, I don't know what else.
杰森·雷诺兹：我不知道他们还喜欢什么，我不知道他们还喜欢什么。
You're going to have to go and figure out how to find your own peace and happiness.
你必须去弄清楚如何找到自己的平静和幸福。
If you're going to keep this marriage together, you're going to have to go find some outside happiness, unless you get a divorce.
如果你想维持这段婚姻，你就必须去寻找一些外部的幸福，除非你离婚。
If you don't want to get a divorce, I don't-- to me, I don't know what the other option-- you don't deserve to suffer, so you're going to have to go find you some happiness on the outside.
如果你不想离婚，我不——对我来说，我不知道还有什么选择——你不应该受苦，所以你必须去外面寻找一些快乐。
I don't know what else I'm supposed to-- what's the better piece of advice?
我不知道我还应该做什么——更好的建议是什么？
What would you tell her?
你会告诉她什么？
What would you tell her?
你会告诉她什么？
No, no, no. Nichole Hill I'll do you better.
不，不，不。妮可·希尔 我会为你做得更好。
Nichole Hill I'm going to tell you what she does.
妮可·希尔 我要告诉你她是做什么的。
She decides to write a biography about Paul.
她决定写一本关于保罗的传记。
She names it Paul Robeson, comma, Negro.
她给它起名叫保罗·罗伯逊（Paul Robeson），逗号，黑人。
He's like--
他就像——
[LAUGHTER] Jason Reynolds In today's time, this?
[笑声] Jason Reynolds 在今天，这个？
No.
不。
[LAUGHTER] Nichole Hill It's written in the third person to make it seem more scholarly, and on the surface, it reads like a loving tribute to his life and accomplishments.
[笑声] Nichole Hill 它是用第三人称写的，使其看起来更具学术性，从表面上看，它读起来像是对他的生活和成就的充满爱意的致敬。
But if you read between the lines, she's calling him lazy.
但如果你从字里行间看出，她是在说他懒惰。
She says that she has to constantly chase after him to get him to rehearse and be a professional.
她说，她必须不断地追着他，让他排练，成为一名专业人士。
She says that he is barely interested in Paulie.
她说他对保利几乎不感兴趣。
She calls him a massive flirt who is not cheating on her, but if he did cheat on her, he would never leave her.
她称他是一个大调情者，没有欺骗她，但如果他真的欺骗了她，他永远不会离开她。
And Paul is like, I want a divorce right now.
保罗说，我现在就想离婚。
[AUDIENCE GROANING] After that, there are messy headlines.
[观众呻吟]此后，就有了混乱的头条新闻。
They kind of spend some time apart.
他们有点分开一段时间。
There's this Eat, Pray, Love summer in Paris for Essie.
埃西在巴黎度过了这个“美食、祈祷、恋爱”的夏天。
And then in the movie version of this, so it's all in my head, one day Paul shows back up on the stoop of their flat.
然后在电影版本中，这一切都在我的脑海里，有一天保罗又出现在他们公寓的门廊上。
He says, Essie, I've made a terrible mistake.
他说，埃西，我犯了一个可怕的错误。
[LAUGHTER] Paul and the sometimes-actress Yolande broke up.
[笑声] 保罗和演员约兰德分手了。
Essie says that Yolande chickened out.
埃西说约兰德胆怯了。
So he comes back home, and he and Essie essentially start dating again.
于是他回到家，他和埃西基本上又开始约会了。
In 1933, the two make each other some promises.
1933年，两人互相做出了一些承诺。
They will never get divorced or discuss divorce again.
他们永远不会离婚，也不会再讨论离婚。
They will be together for the rest of their lives.
他们将共度余生。
There will never be headlines or gossip about them again.
再也不会有关于他们的头条新闻或八卦了。
No more Yolandes.
不再有约兰德斯了。
They will have an open marriage.
他们将举行开放式婚姻。
Coming up, Paul and Essie fall in love again, but this time, it's with the Soviet Union.
接下来，保罗和埃西再次坠入爱河，但这一次，是与苏联。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Emanuele Berry sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 的埃马努埃莱·贝里 (Emanuele Berry)。
Today's show, "Bless This Mess." Today in our program, we are hearing the story of Paul and Essie Robeson.
今天的节目“保佑这个混乱”。今天在我们的节目中，我们将听到保罗和埃西·罗伯逊的故事。
When we left the couple, the newspapers couldn't stop talking about their unconventional relationship.
当我们离开这对夫妇时，报纸不停地谈论他们非传统的关系。
In part two of our story, all the headlines become about their politics.
在我们故事的第二部分，所有的头条新闻都与他们的政治有关。
Here's Nichole and Jason.
这是妮可和杰森。
So while Paul and Essie were dealing with all their drama, the world around them was changing.
因此，当保罗和埃西处理所有的戏剧性事件时，他们周围的世界正在发生变化。
Over in Italy, Benito Mussolini is running the world's first fascist dictatorship.
在意大利，贝尼托·墨索里尼正在统治世界上第一个法西斯独裁政权。
Mussolini invades Ethiopia, forcing the country's emperor into exile.
墨索里尼入侵埃塞俄比亚，迫使该国皇帝流亡。
Ethiopia, the only nation in Africa that hadn't been colonized, is of enormous symbolic importance to the Black diaspora.
埃塞俄比亚是非洲唯一没有被殖民的国家，对海外黑人具有巨大的象征意义。
In response, Black men across America train in hopes of joining the Ethiopian resistance.
作为回应，美国各地的黑人进行训练，希望加入埃塞俄比亚抵抗运动。
W.E.B Du Bois and Paul Robeson hold a rally at Madison Square Garden, and 25,000 New Yorkers march through Harlem to show their support for the African nation.
W.E.B 杜波依斯 (W.E.B Du Bois) 和保罗·罗伯逊 (Paul Robeson) 在麦迪逊广场花园举行集会，25,000 名纽约人在哈莱姆区游行，以表达对这个非洲国家的支持。
Mussolini's fascist movement spreads.
墨索里尼的法西斯运动蔓延。
So does Hitler's.
希特勒也是如此。
America chooses isolationism.
美国选择了孤立主义。
The Robesons do not.
罗伯逊一家没有。
Here is how we came to fear the Robesons.
这就是我们如何害怕罗伯逊一家的原因。
All right, so now we're in the mid-1930s.
好吧，现在我们正处于 20 世纪 30 年代中期。
Essie and Paul have remixed their vows.
埃西和保罗重新制定了他们的誓言。
They seem to be doing well.
他们似乎做得很好。
They are splitting their time between London and New York.
他们的时间分布在伦敦和纽约之间。
Now, Paul at this point is so wildly famous.
现在，保罗在这一点上是如此出名。
I saw this quote that said that he was as well-known during his lifetime as Abraham Lincoln.
我看到这句话说他生前和亚伯拉罕·林肯一样出名。
Essie, meanwhile, is still managing Paul, which is just, like, amazing.
与此同时，埃西仍在管理保罗，这真是太神奇了。
She's killing it.
她正在杀死它。
But she's decided that she's going to go back to school for anthropology.
但她决定回到学校学习人类学。
She wants her own outlet.
她想要自己的出路。
And then Paul gets this invite to go to Moscow.
然后保罗收到了去莫斯科的邀请。
And he and Essie are like, you know what?
他和埃西就像，你知道吗？
Let's do it.
我们开始做吧。
We've been curious about Russia since way back in the day.
我们从很久以前就对俄罗斯感到好奇。
Let's go.
我们走吧。
[TRAIN HORN BLARING] So the Robesons arrive in Moscow around Christmastime.
[火车喇叭声] 罗伯逊一家在圣诞节前后抵达莫斯科。
They received the red carpet treatment.
他们受到了红地毯的待遇。
It's all the best this.
这一切都是最好的了
It's state-of-the-art that.
这是最先进的。
Paul performs Negro spirituals for huge crowds.
保罗为一大群人表演黑人灵歌。
And you have to picture this.
你必须想象一下这一点。
He is the son of a slave, singing the plantation songs of his parents to the children of serfs, whose parents had their own versions of plantation songs and similar struggles.
他是奴隶的儿子，向农奴的孩子们唱着父母的种植园歌曲，而农奴的父母也有自己版本的种植园歌曲和类似的斗争。
So they're listening, and they're vibing.
所以他们在倾听，他们在共鸣。
And then he sings the songs again, but in Russian, because he's fluent now.
然后他又唱了一遍这些歌，但用的是俄语，因为他现在已经很流利了。
They adore him.
他们崇拜他。
[APPLAUSE] The Robesons are part of a whole wave of Black intellectuals that are visiting the USSR at this time, people like Langston Hughes, W.E.B Du Bois, opera singer Marian Anderson.
[掌声]罗伯逊一家是此时访问苏联的一大批黑人知识分子的一部分，其中包括兰斯顿·休斯、W.E.B·杜波依斯、歌剧歌手玛丽安·安德森。
And all of them are saying the same thing.
他们都在说同样的话。
They're like, when we are in the USSR, we are being treated like equals.
他们就像，当我们在苏联时，我们受到平等对待。
Which, like, I can't really even imagine what it would have felt like to finally be treated like a human being.
就像，我什至无法想象最终被像人类一样对待会是什么样的感觉。
Mm.
毫米。
First of all, it's hard to travel now.
首先，现在出行很困难。
Imagine how difficult it was to travel then.
想象一下当时的旅行是多么困难。
And then also, I just think, they were creative people.
而且，我只是认为，他们是有创造力的人。
You better get out here and see what's happening.
你最好出去看看发生了什么事。
It's good for your imagination.
这对你的想象力有好处。
It's good for your creativity.
这对你的创造力有好处。
It's good to know that maybe the thumb of oppression might not be as heavy everywhere else, right, and that that's a possibility, that maybe there is freedom at some point.
很高兴知道，也许在其他地方，压迫的拇指可能不会那么重，对吧，这是有可能的，也许在某个时候会有自由。
If I could be free here, maybe someday I could be free there.
如果我在这里能自由，也许有一天我在那里也能自由。
Yeah.
是的。
Chioke I'anson The Robesons are getting a very particular experience of the USSR.
Chioke I'anson 罗伯逊一家在苏联获得了非常特殊的经历。
But the reality is, Stalin, at this point, has perpetrated a genocide in Ukraine.
但现实是，斯大林此时已经在乌克兰实施了种族灭绝。
And within two years of the Robeson's visit, Stalin will enact the Great Purge, in which he imprisons or executes his so-called enemies.
罗伯逊访问后两年内，斯大林将实施大清洗，监禁或处决他所谓的敌人。
We don't really know how much Essie and Paul knew about Stalin's actions.
我们真的不知道埃西和保罗对斯大林的行为了解多少。
Maybe they'd heard rumors, but maybe they viewed those rumors as US propaganda.
也许他们听到了谣言，但也许他们将这些谣言视为美国的宣传。
Obviously, in hindsight, it seems like a clearly controversial thing to have looked past, if they knew anything at all.
显然，事后看来，如果他们知道任何事情的话，回顾过去似乎是一件明显有争议的事情。
But what we do know is that after their visit, Paul becomes one of the world's most famous supporters of the USSR.
但我们所知道的是，在他们访问之后，保罗成为世界上最著名的苏联支持者之一。
And his son Paulie will later learn that the CIA opened a file on his dad.
他的儿子保利后来得知中央情报局开设了一份关于他父亲的档案。
Essie, meanwhile, is doing some traveling of her own, inspired by her interest and curiosity about Africa.
与此同时，埃西 (Essie) 受到对非洲的兴趣和好奇心的启发，自己也开始了一些旅行。
In 1936, Essie goes to places like South Africa and Uganda, and it kind of radicalizes her.
1936 年，埃西去了南非和乌干达等地，这让她变得激进。
So she writes this article being like, attention, everyone.
所以她写这篇文章希望大家注意。
Paul and I have traveled essentially Earth at this point, and everywhere we go, we see the same thing, which is workers of every race being exploited.
保罗和我此时基本上已经走遍了地球，无论我们走到哪里，我们都看到同样的事情，那就是各个种族的工人都受到剥削。
After that, she steps away from Paul's world to be a writer and an international speaker on Pan-Africanism, communism, and women's and civil rights.
之后，她离开了保罗的世界，成为一名作家和泛非主义、共产主义、妇女权利和公民权利的国际演讲者。
Paulie will later learn that the FBI opened a file on his mom.
保利后来得知联邦调查局打开了他母亲的档案。
Oh, just that the FBI, and the CIA, and the State Department, and all-- just thinking about all the people who had files opened up on them for having an imagination.
哦，只是联邦调查局、中央情报局、国务院，以及所有——想想所有那些因为有想象力而向他们公开档案的人。
Right.
正确的。
Jason Reynolds These people are doing nothing other than imagining a better version of the life in which they've been-- the life that has been foisted upon them, you know what I mean-- and trying their best to imagine a space where people who are experiencing similar things might be free and are being punished, or at least being sort of investigated due to said imagination.
杰森·雷诺兹：这些人除了想象一个更好的生活版本之外什么也没做——强加给他们的生活，你知道我的意思——并尽力想象一个空间，在那里经历类似事情的人可能是自由的，并受到惩罚，或者至少因为所说的想象而受到某种调查。
It's interesting to think about.
想想就很有趣。
So from the 1930s and into the '50s, the two devote themselves to fighting racism, colonialism, and class oppression.
因此从 1930 年代到 50 年代，两人致力于反对种族主义、殖民主义和阶级压迫。
Paul becomes one of the leading figures in the Civil and Labor Rights Movement, and he uses his fame and fortune to put on benefit concerts that Black and white people attend.
保罗成为民权和劳工权利运动的领军人物之一，他利用自己的名声和财富举办黑人和白人参加的慈善音乐会。
Paul is organizing against lynching, job discrimination, and mob violence, and he's campaigning for progressive causes around the world.
保罗正在组织反对私刑、工作歧视和暴民暴力，并在世界各地为进步事业进行活动。
I would just like to add one other word-- that this is a time of struggle.
我只想补充一句——这是一个奋斗的时刻。
Paul would speak to packed-out venues-- bars, churches, concert halls, even to kids at summer camp.
保罗会在拥挤的场所演讲——酒吧、教堂、音乐厅，甚至在夏令营里对孩子们演讲。
And that we have to fight against people who are very powerful, people whom it seems are pretty hard to bring down from those top places.
我们必须与非常有权势的人作斗争，这些人似乎很难从那些高层职位上拉下来。
But they can be brought down.
但它们是可以被打倒的。
This activism, it doesn't really impact Paul and Essie's popularity.
这种激进主义并没有真正影响保罗和埃西的受欢迎程度。
They continue to be stars.
他们仍然是明星。
But they are called extremists by some.
但他们被一些人称为极端分子。
They're told to leave America all the time if they have so many problems with the country.
如果他们与这个国家有这么多问题，他们就会一直被告知离开美国。
But they're like, we're Americans.
但他们就像，我们是美国人。
Our parents built this country.
我们的父母建立了这个国家。
We're going to stay, and we're going to help America realize her promise.
我们将留下来，我们将帮助美国实现她的承诺。
This is always their position.
这始终是他们的立场。
But then in 1949, public opinion starts to shift.
但到了 1949 年，公众舆论开始发生转变。
So that year, Paul joins a peace conference in Paris, and he gives this speech.
那一年，保罗参加了巴黎的和平会议，并发表了这篇演讲。
And in it, he's basically like, Black and white workers built America.
在其中，他基本上就像是，黑人和白人工人建设了美国。
We want to share in its wealth.
我们希望分享它的财富。
We're not interested in a war with the USSR.
我们对与苏联的战争不感兴趣。
The press falsely reports Paul saying Black people would help the Soviet Union in a war against America as revenge for slavery and Jim Crow.
媒体错误地报道保罗说黑人将帮助苏联对抗美国，作为对奴隶制和种族隔离的报复。
This goes viral.
这件事迅速走红。
Every paper covers it.
每张纸都涵盖它。
Public sentiment turns on Paul.
公众情绪转向保罗。
The Chicago Defender publishes an article with the headline-- Paul Robeson: Is He a Man or a Soviet Mouse?
《芝加哥卫士报》发表了一篇文章，标题是——保罗·罗伯逊：他是人还是苏联老鼠？
I'm still a fan.
我仍然是粉丝。
This is what I'm talking about.
这就是我要说的。
Yolande would never.
约兰德永远不会。
Paul's viral moment, when he was misquoted, has big consequences for him and his family.
当保罗被错误引用时，他的病毒式传播时刻对他和他的家人产生了重大影响。
They're now targets of the US government, and a coordinated effort to discredit and ultimately erase him from every corner of public life begins, which brings me to how we came to forget the Robesons.
他们现在成为美国政府的目标，一场协调一致的行动开始抹黑并最终将他从公共生活的各个角落抹去，这让我想到我们是如何忘记罗伯逊一家的。
It's 1950.
现在是 1950 年。
The State Department demands that Paul and Essie sign loyalty oaths disavowing communism.
美国国务院要求保罗和埃西签署忠诚誓言，否认共产主义。
They refuse.
他们拒绝。
Their passports are revoked.
他们的护照被吊销。
So you're Paulie.
所以你是保利。
What are your conversations like with your parents at this point?
此时你与父母的对话是什么样的？
They're in their 50s, and they're taking on the United States of America.
他们已经50多岁了，他们正在对抗美利坚合众国。
I'm proud of my parents.
我为我的父母感到骄傲。
Nichole Hill Mm.
妮可·希尔 MM.
If I'm me, and they my parents, these the people who raised me, I think I would have been sad, and it would have been-- it would have been anxiety-inducing.
如果我是我，他们是我的父母，这些抚养我长大的人，我想我会感到悲伤，而且会引起焦虑。
But I know-- but I also know that it would have been a waste of my time, a futile endeavor, to try to convince them otherwise.
但我知道——但我也知道，如果试图说服他们不这样做，那将是浪费我的时间，也是徒劳的努力。
Yeah.
是的。
Jason Reynolds Right?
杰森·雷诺兹 对吗？
If them your parents, then you go ahead and you sign up for what it is.
如果他们是你的父母，那么你就继续并注册。
So in 1956, the Robesons get called down to Washington to testify in front of lawmakers.
因此，1956 年，罗伯逊一家被传唤到华盛顿在立法者面前作证。
They're going in hopes of getting their passports back.
他们前往希望能拿回护照。
So now, you have to just remember that this is during the era of the Red Scare.
所以现在，你必须记住，这是在红色恐慌时代。
So even though the Robesons, by now, would have learned that the USSR under Stalin is this, like, violent, authoritarian regime, they remain unwavering in their belief in communism.
因此，尽管罗伯逊家族现在已经知道斯大林统治下的苏联是一个暴力的独裁政权，但他们对共产主义的信念仍然坚定不移。
So Essie's questioned by Joseph McCarthy and his little protege Roy Cohn, who was the mentor to the current president.
因此，埃西受到了约瑟夫·麦卡锡和他的小弟子罗伊·科恩的质问，罗伊·科恩是现任总统的导师。
They want to know why she's so obsessed with Africa if she's an American and why she loves it there so much.
他们想知道，如果她是美国人，为什么她对非洲如此着迷，为什么她如此热爱那里。
Essie's like, why is everybody on this committee white?
埃西问，为什么这个委员会的每个人都是白人？
McCarthy's like, because we are who the American people voted for.
麦卡锡很喜欢，因为我们是美国人民投票选出的。
Are you a Communist?
你是共产党员吗？
And she says, well, Jim Crow is making it very hard for a lot of the American people to vote down South.
她说，种族隔离制度让很多美国人很难投票给南方。
Maybe if they could, we wouldn't all be here wasting our time.
也许如果他们可以的话，我们就不会在这里浪费时间了。
Paul testifies before the House Un-American Activities Committee.
保罗在众议院非美活动委员会作证。
He's asked if he's a Communist, why he loves Stalin so much, why he keeps criticizing America even though he's rich and famous.
有人问他是否是共产党员，为什么他如此热爱斯大林，为什么尽管他富有和有名，却一直批评美国。
His contempt for the committee is hilarious.
他对委员会的蔑视令人发笑。
You should absolutely read the transcripts.
你绝对应该阅读文字记录。
He's just like, I'm so bored.
他只是说，我太无聊了。
Why am I here?
我为什么在这里？
He reminds them that he's literally a lawyer.
他提醒他们，他实际上是一名律师。
If you'll recall, that's where all this started.
如果你还记得的话，这就是这一切的开始。
Plus, he's an orator, and he's a genius.
另外，他是一位演说家，而且是一位天才。
And they're like, obviously we forgot that.
他们就像，显然我们忘记了这一点。
Otherwise, we wouldn't have invited all these reporters in here.
不然我们也不会把这么多记者都请到这里来。
He's just, like, posing for the reporters.
他只是在为记者摆姿势。
He does not care.
他不在乎。
They ask him over and over again if he's a Communist, and he says the following.
他们一遍又一遍地问他是否是共产党员，他说了以下的话。
"I'm not being tried for whether I am a Communist.
“我不会因是否是共产党人而受到审判。
I'm being tried for fighting for the rights of my people to be full citizens in this country, and they are not.
我因为我的人民成为这个国家的正式公民的权利而受到审判，但他们却没有。
They are not in Mississippi, and they are not in Alabama.
他们不在密西西比州，也不在阿拉巴马州。
That is why I am here today.
这就是我今天来这里的原因。
You want to shut up every Negro who has the courage to stand up and fight for the rights of his people, for the rights of workers."
你想让每一个有勇气站起来为人民、工人的权利而战的黑人闭嘴。”
If you can believe it, after these testimonies, they do not get their passports back.
如果你相信的话，在这些证词之后，他们就没有拿回护照。
I can't believe it.
我简直不敢相信。
Nichole Hill I know.
妮可·希尔我知道。
I know.
我知道。
I know.
我知道。
After the hearings, the Robesons are declared anti-American communists.
听证会结束后，罗伯逊一家被宣布为反美共产主义者。
Paul is labeled the most dangerous man in America by the State Department, and other institutions are like, all right, let's go.
保罗被国务院称为美国最危险的人，而其他机构则表示，好吧，我们走吧。
And they try to make it so the Robesons never existed, like, literally.
他们试图让罗伯逊家族永远不存在，就像字面上的那样。
Paul's University, Rutgers, erases any record of his football or sporting career.
罗格斯大学圣保罗大学抹去了他的足球或体育生涯的任何记录。
Newspapers destroy archival materials that mention Paul.
报纸销毁了提到保罗的档案材料。
The NAACP denounces them.
全国有色人种协进会谴责他们。
The concert halls that Paul had once filled, they won't book him.
保罗曾经挤满的音乐厅，他们不会为他预订。
He writes a memoir.
他写了一本回忆录。
The mainstream white press refuses to promote or even review it.
主流白人媒体拒绝宣传甚至评论它。
His films and recordings get taken out of circulation.
他的电影和录音被停止流通。
He's blacklisted from the radio, movie screens.
他被列入广播、电影屏幕的黑名单。
And he becomes one of the first artists to be blacklisted from television.
他成为第一批被列入电视黑名单的艺术家之一。
He's banned longer than any other performer from this era.
他被禁止的时间比这个时代任何其他表演者都长。
Black churches and unions around the world send their support, but it's not nearly enough to make up for so much lost income.
世界各地的黑人教会和工会都提供了支持，但这还不足以弥补如此多的收入损失。
Paul and Essie have to sell their home and move in with Paulie.
保罗和埃西不得不卖掉他们的房子并搬去与保利同住。
And all of this is what erasing them from the history books looks like.
所有这一切就是将他们从历史书中抹去的样子。
So Paul's actually going to live into the 1970s, but he is hidden from view.
所以保罗实际上会活到 20 世纪 70 年代，但他被隐藏起来了。
And let me just tell you that when I tell white people this next part of the story, they're usually like, what?
让我告诉你，当我告诉白人故事的下一部分时，他们通常会说，什么？
But as a Black person, I'm like, obviously, because none of this feels unbelievable to a Black person.
但作为一个黑人，我显然是这样的，因为这对黑人来说并不令人难以置信。
Right.
正确的。
Nichole Hill But let's get into it.
Nichole Hill：但是让我们开始吧。
In 1958, after eight years, the Supreme Court rules that the state can't take your passport over your politics, and the Robesons get theirs back.
1958 年，八年后，最高法院裁定国家不能因为你的政治观点而没收你的护照，罗伯逊家族收回了他们的护照。
They relocate to London.
他们搬到伦敦。
A couple years later, Paul is in Moscow.
几年后，保罗来到了莫斯科。
He's entertaining in his hotel room, and some uninvited guests arrive.
他正在酒店房间里招待客人，一些不速之客到来了。
Then Essie, who's back in London, gets a call telling her that Paul is in the hospital.
然后回到伦敦的埃西接到电话，告诉她保罗住院了。
She rushes to Paul's side and is told that at some point during or after this party, Paul went into his bathroom and slit his wrists.
她冲到保罗身边，并被告知在聚会期间或之后的某个时刻，保罗走进他的浴室并割开了手腕。
He was discovered and brought to the hospital experiencing some kind of a mental breakdown, with severe hallucinations and extreme paranoia.
他被发现并被送往医院，经历了某种精神崩溃，出现严重的幻觉和极度偏执。
The doctors treat him with mild tranquilizers.
医生用温和的镇静剂治疗他。
This seems to help.
这似乎有帮助。
Paulie arrives in Moscow.
保利抵达莫斯科。
He checks on his dad.
他检查他的父亲。
Then he grabs a meal.
然后他抓起一顿饭。
He suddenly begins experiencing some kind of a mental breakdown with severe hallucinations and extreme paranoia.
他突然开始经历某种精神崩溃，出现严重的幻觉和极度偏执。
After a week, Paulie recovers, but Paul does not.
一周后，保利康复了，但保罗却没有康复。
At times, he seems fine, and at other times, he's dangerously depressed and completely disoriented.
有时，他看起来很好，但有时，他却处于危险的抑郁状态，完全迷失了方向。
And then Paul's London doctor suggests that Essie check him into a clinic called The Priory to receive special treatment.
然后保罗的伦敦医生建议埃西把他送进一家名为“修道院”的诊所接受特殊治疗。
Essie agrees, but after a few months, she finally lets it slip that she's worried about Paul's treatment plan.
埃西同意了，但几个月后，她终于透露出她担心保罗的治疗计划。
So Paulie rushes to London, and he's horrified.
于是保利赶到了伦敦，他吓坏了。
At the clinic, Paul has been subjected to near daily debilitating electroconvulsive therapy and a cocktail of powerful drugs.
在诊所里，保罗几乎每天都要接受令人虚弱的电休克治疗和强效药物混合物。
He's a shell of himself.
他就是他自己的一个躯壳。
Some historians say that maybe he had a mental break.
一些历史学家说他可能精神崩溃了。
Others wonder if he had bipolar disorder and it appeared in his 60s.
其他人怀疑他是否患有躁郁症，而且在他 60 多岁时就出现了这种症状。
They don't like Paulie's theory because he can't produce enough evidence for it, but I'm going to tell you it anyway.
他们不喜欢保利的理论，因为他无法提供足够的证据，但无论如何我都会告诉你。
He says that he finds compelling evidence that the CIA and British intelligence may have conspired to administer LSD and ECT therapy as part of the covert CIA mind control and chemical interrogation research program known as MKUltra.
他说，他发现了令人信服的证据，表明中央情报局和英国情报部门可能合谋实施 LSD 和 ECT 治疗，作为中央情报局秘密精神控制和化学审讯研究计划（称为 MKUltra）的一部分。
I'm obviously a little more toward the Paulie side, where it's like, I think they poisoned him.
我显然更倾向于保利一方，我认为他们毒害了他。
And for his son to get sick, too?
他的儿子也会生病吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Jason Reynolds Come on, man.
杰森雷诺兹 来吧，伙计。
We know what it is.
我们知道它是什么。
Like, I just-- I didn't know that part, and I think that part kind of has me a little emotional and a bit rattled, just because-- I mean, because there's anger there for me.
就像，我只是——我不知道那部分，我认为那部分让我有点情绪化，有点慌乱，只是因为——我的意思是，因为我有愤怒。
Right.
正确的。
Nichole Hill Actually, of Paul, Coretta Scott King will later say, "He was buried alive even before my husband for tapping the same wells of latent militancy." Essie passed away in 1965, and Paul died a decade later.
尼科尔·希尔（Nichole Hill） 事实上，保罗·科雷塔·斯科特·金（Coretta Scott King）后来说，“他甚至在我丈夫之前就被活埋了，因为他挖掘了潜在的好战情绪。”埃西 (Essie) 于 1965 年去世，保罗 (Paul) 于十年后去世。
He was 77.
他77岁了。
You know, when I talk about Paul and Essie, it's a little bit painful to tell a story like that as a Black person to another Black person and think about the amount of research that I had to do to know it and that it isn't already known.
你知道，当我谈论保罗和埃西时，作为一个黑人向另一个黑人讲述这样的故事，并想想我必须做大量的研究才能了解它，而且它还不为人所知，这有点痛苦。
And I have this feeling.
我有这样的感觉。
You know, there's this belief that if you do enough, if we do enough, then maybe we can change everything.
你知道，人们相信，如果你做得足够多，如果我们做得足够多，那么也许我们可以改变一切。
Maybe we can turn it around or be the change we want to see.
也许我们可以扭转局面，或者成为我们希望看到的改变。
And then I read everything that they did.
然后我读了他们所做的一切。
They did every single thing it feels like a person could think to do to make not only Black life, but all life, better.
他们做了人们能想到做的每一件事，不仅让黑人的生活，而且让所有的生活变得更好。
And we forgot.
我们忘记了。
And it just makes me-- it makes me sad to know that that's possible.
知道这是可能的，这让我感到难过。
It feels like it should be impossible to erase a legacy of that size, but it wasn't, which means it probably still isn't.
感觉应该不可能消除如此规模的遗产，但事实并非如此，这意味着它可能仍然无法消除。
But that's the thing, right?
但事情就是这样，对吧？
You say we forgot.
你说我们忘记了。
We didn't forget.
我们没有忘记。
We never knew.
我们从来不知道。
Mm.
毫米。
Jason Reynolds Right?
杰森·雷诺兹 对吗？
The information-- like, his life had been redacted.
这些信息——比如，他的生活被编辑了。
Right, that's true.
没错，确实如此。
Jason Reynolds And I think-- and this is the thing that I think about all the time, is that if you can't beat me at any of the things, if I am objectively better at all of the things-- my intellectual capacity, my athletic capacity, my creative capacity, my fervor and spirit-- the only thing left to get me is to make it so that I never existed, right-- is to turn me into a ghost.
杰森·雷诺兹 我认为——这是我一直在思考的事情——如果你在任何事情上都无法击败我，如果我客观上在所有事情上都比我更好——我的智力、我的运动能力、我的创造力、我的热情和精神——那么唯一能阻止我的就是让我从未存在过，对吧——就是把我变成一个幽灵。
The moment that the opportunity arose, he was turned into a ghost.
机会一到，他就变成了鬼。
And this is a tricky thing to talk about, because it's one of those-- because it sounds-- it sounds so tinfoil-y.
这是一件很难谈论的事情，因为它是其中之一——因为它听起来——听起来太锡纸了。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Jason Reynolds But if I'm only looking at what is happening, it's like James Baldwin.
杰森·雷诺兹 但如果我只关注正在发生的事情，那就像是詹姆斯·鲍德温。
No, I don't know you hate me, but I know that my-- I know my kids ain't got no books in their schools.
不，我不知道你恨我，但我知道我的——我知道我的孩子在学校里没有书。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jason Reynolds Because I don't necessarily think that they're taking these things down because they don't believe them.
杰森·雷诺兹：因为我不一定认为他们之所以会删除这些东西，是因为他们不相信它们。
I think they're taking these things down because they don't want everyone else to believe them.
我认为他们把这些事情撤下来是因为他们不想让其他人相信他们。
They know exactly who we are.
他们清楚地知道我们是谁。
You know, when you say they know who we are, people know who we are, I think a lot about the fact that there is something in our ability to disrupt the economic systems of America, the social systems, the political systems.
你知道，当你说他们知道我们是谁时，人们知道我们是谁，我想了很多这样的事实，即我们有能力破坏美国的经济体系、社会体系和政治体系。
I mean, the whole country had one system that it was built on, which was the enslavement of Black people.
我的意思是，整个国家都有一个赖以建立的制度，那就是对黑人的奴役。
And then it ends, and it has to be overturned.
然后就结束了，必须推翻。
And so they create a new system, where it's like, all right, well, fine, we'll be separate.
所以他们创建了一个新系统，就像，好吧，好吧，我们会分开的。
And then, through our strategy, through our art, through our humanity, through everything that we are, we overturn the social, political, cultural, religious, all these systems again.
然后，通过我们的策略，通过我们的艺术，通过我们的人性，通过我们的一切，我们再次推翻社会、政治、文化、宗教，所有这些制度。
And when I'm in archives, when I'm reading the diaries of ancestors, that's the thing that sticks with me.
当我在档案馆里，当我阅读祖先的日记时，这就是我一直铭记的事情。
I'm like, oh, this is who we are.
我想，哦，这就是我们。
We have the power to articulate our lived experience in such a way that people all around the world rise up and say, this is wrong, and join movements and fights for people they've never met, and in a lot of cases, have never even seen.
我们有能力以这样的方式表达我们的生活经历，让世界各地的人们站起来说，这是错误的，并为他们从未见过、在很多情况下甚至从未见过的人加入运动和斗争。
And I think, man, there's so much power in that.
我认为，伙计，这里面有很大的力量。
And I didn't know, and that is by design.
我不知道，这是设计使然。
Nichole Hill-- she's the host of the award-winning show Our Ancestors Were Messy.
妮可·希尔 (Nichole Hill)——她是获奖节目《我们的祖先很混乱》的主持人。
What you just heard was an adaptation of her original episode.
你刚刚听到的是她的原创剧集的改编版。
That's right.
这是正确的。
There is even more Paul and Essie drama.
还有更多保罗和埃西的戏剧。
It's a two-parter.
这是一个二人组。
You can find that episode and more wherever you listen to podcasts, and there are so many wonderful stories that Nichole tells.
无论您在哪里收听播客，您都可以找到该剧集以及更多内容，并且妮可讲述了很多精彩的故事。
I highly recommend checking out the episode about Nora Holt and the one about Zora Neale Hurston.
我强烈建议您观看有关诺拉·霍尔特 (Nora Holt) 的剧集和有关佐拉·尼尔·赫斯顿 (Zora Neale Hurston) 的剧集。
Go listen.
去听吧。
What you're hearing right now is Paul Robeson singing a song he himself wrote to the tune of the "Battle Hymn of the Republic." It was kind of lost to history until a sound designer and editor John DeLore found it last year at a thrift store and gave it to Nichole.
你现在听到的是保罗·罗伯逊在演唱一首他自己根据《共和国战歌》曲调创作的歌曲。它有点失落于历史之中，直到声音设计师兼编辑约翰·德洛尔 (John DeLore) 去年在一家旧货店发现了它并将其交给了尼科尔 (Nichole)。
(SINGING) From the Bay of Massachusetts out into the Golden Gate,
（唱歌）从马萨诸塞湾进入金门，
Henry Wallace leads his army 'gainst destruction, fear, and hate
亨利·华莱士带领他的军队“战胜破坏、恐惧和仇恨”
We Americans will save the precious land that we create
我们美国人将拯救我们创造的宝贵土地
For the people's march is on Glory, glory hallelujah
因为人民的前进是荣耀，荣耀哈利路亚
OK, so you're emancipated from slavery.
好吧，你已经从奴隶制中解放出来了。
You resettle in Ohio.
您在俄亥俄州定居。
Then you get a letter from the man who used to enslave you, asking you to come back and work for him again.
然后你收到了一封来自曾经奴役你的人的信，要求你回来再次为他工作。
That is exactly what happened to a man named Jourdon Anderson.
这正是发生在一个名叫乔登·安德森 (Jourdon Anderson) 的人身上的事情。
Anderson wrote a letter in response.
安德森写了一封回信。
It was published in a newspaper in 1865 and is read here at a live event by Laurence Fishburne.
它于 1865 年在一份报纸上发表，劳伦斯·菲什伯恩 (Laurence Fishburne) 在一次现场活动中宣读了这本书。
To my old master-- the letter.
给我的老主人——这封信。
Dayton, Ohio, August 7, 1865.
1865 年 8 月 7 日，俄亥俄州代顿。
To my old master, Colonel P.H.
致我的老主人 P.H. 上校
Anderson, Big Spring, Tennessee.
安德森，田纳西州大斯普林。
Sir, I got your letter and was glad to find that you had not forgotten Jourdon and that you wanted me to come back and live with you again, promising to do better for me than anyone else can.
先生，我收到了你的信，很高兴发现你没有忘记乔登，你希望我回来和你住在一起，并承诺比任何人都能为我做得更好。
I have often felt uneasy about you.
我常常对你感到不安。
I thought the Yankees would have hung you before this--
我以为在此之前洋基队会绞死你——
--for harboring Rebs that they found at your house.
——因为窝藏了他们在你家发现的雷布。
I suppose they never heard about your going to Colonel Martin's to kill the Union soldier that was left by his company in their stable.
我想他们从来没有听说过你去马丁上校那里杀了他的连留在马厩里的联邦士兵。
Although you shot at me twice before I left you, I did not want to hear of your being hurt and am glad that you are still living.
虽然在我离开你之前你向我开枪两次，但我不想听到你受伤的消息，很高兴你还活着。
It would do me good to go back to dear old home again, and see Miss Mary and Miss Martha, Alan, Esther, Green, and Lee.
再次回到亲爱的老家，看看玛丽小姐和玛莎小姐、艾伦、埃丝特、格林和李，对我有好处。
Give my love to them all and tell them I hope we will meet in the better world, if not in this.
向他们所有人表达我的爱，并告诉他们我希望我们能在一个更美好的世界相遇，即使不是在这个世界。
I would have gone back to see you all when I was working in the Nashville Hospital, but one of the neighbors told me that Henry intended to shoot me if he ever got a chance.
当我在纳什维尔医院工作时，我本想回去看望你们，但一位邻居告诉我，亨利一有机会就打算开枪射杀我。
I want to know particularly what the good chance is you propose to give me.
我特别想知道你打算给我什么好机会。
I am doing tolerably well here.
我在这里做得还算不错。
I get $25 a month, with victuals and clothing, have a comfortable home for Mandy-- hah, the folks call her Mrs. Anderson.
我每个月挣 25 美元，有食物和衣服，为曼迪提供一个舒适的家——哈，人们都叫她安德森太太。
And the children, Millie, Jane, and Grundy, go to school and are learning well.
孩子们米莉、简和格伦迪都去上学并且学习得很好。
Now, if you will write and say what wages you will give me, I will better be able to decide whether it would be to my advantage to move back again.
现在，如果你写信告诉我你愿意给我多少工资，我就能更好地决定再次搬回去是否对我有利。
[AUDIENCE LAUGHING] As to my freedom, which you say I can have, well, there is nothing to be gained on that score, as I got my free papers in 1864 from the Provost Marshal General of the Department of Nashville.
[观众笑]至于我的自由，你说我可以拥有，好吧，在这一点上我没有任何收获，因为我在 1864 年从纳什维尔部门的教务长元帅那里得到了我的自由文件。
Mandy says she would be afraid to go back without some proof that you were disposed to treat us kindly and justly.
曼迪说，如果没有证据证明你愿意善待我们，她会不敢回去。
And we have concluded to test your sincerity by asking you to send us our wages for the time that we served you.
为了测试您的诚意，我们要求您将我们为您服务期间的工资寄给我们。
This will make us forget and forgive old scores and rely on your justice and friendship in the future.
这将使我们忘记并宽恕旧恩，并在未来依靠你们的正义和友谊。
I served you faithfully for 32 years and Mandy 20 years.
我忠实地为您服务了32年，曼迪则忠实地服务了20年。
At $25 a month for me, $2 a week for Mandy, our earnings would amount to $11,680.
如果我每月 25 美元，曼迪每周 2 美元，我们的收入将达到 11,680 美元。
Add this-- the interest for the time of our wages have been kept back, and deduct what you paid for our clothing and three doctor visits for me, pulling a tooth for Mandy, and the balance will show what we are in justice entitled to.
加上这个——我们工资期间的利息已经被扣掉了，扣除你为我们支付的衣服费用、为我看三次医生、为曼迪拔牙的费用，余额将显示我们在正义中有权得到的东西。
Please send the money by Adams Express in care of V.
请将钱通过 Adams Express 转交给 V。
Winters, Esquire, Dayton, Ohio.
温特斯，《时尚先生》，俄亥俄州代顿。
If you fail to pay us for our faithful labors in the past, we can have little faith in your promises in the future.
如果您未能支付我们过去忠实劳动的报酬，我们对您未来的承诺就会失去信心。
We trust the Good Maker has opened your eyes to the wrongs which you and your fathers have done to me and my fathers in making us toil for you for generations without recompense.
我们相信，善良的造物主已经让你们看到了你们和你们的祖先对我和我的祖先所犯下的错误，让我们世世代代为你们辛勤劳作，却没有得到任何回报。
Here, I draw my wages every Saturday night, but in Tennessee, there was never any payday for the Negroes, any more than for the horses and cows.
在这里，我每周六晚上领取工资，但在田纳西州，黑人从来没有发薪日，就像马和牛一样。
Surely there will be a day of reckoning for those who defraud the laborer of his hire.
对于那些骗取工人工资的人来说，肯定会有清算的一天。
In answering this letter, please state if there would be any safety for my Millie and Jane, who are now grown up and both good-looking girls.
在回复这封信时，请说明我的米莉和简是否有任何安全保障，她们现在已经长大了，都是漂亮的女孩。
You know how it was with poor Matilda and Catherine.
你知道可怜的玛蒂尔达和凯瑟琳的遭遇。
I would rather stay here and starve and die, if it came to that, than to have my girls brought to shame and violence by the wickedness of their young masters.
我宁愿留在这里挨饿死，也不愿让我的女儿们因少爷的邪恶而蒙受羞辱和暴力。
You will also please state if there have been any schools open for the colored children in your neighborhood.
您还请说明您附近是否有为有色人种儿童开放的学校。
The great desire of my life now is to give my children an education and have them form virtuous habits.
我现在人生最大的愿望就是让孩子们受教育，让他们养成良好的习惯。
Say howdy to George Carter, and thank him for taking the pistol from you when you were shooting at me.
向乔治·卡特问好，并感谢他在你向我开枪时从你手中夺走了手枪。
Your old servant, Jourdon Anderson.
你的老仆人，乔登·安德森。
Laurence Fishburne reading Jordan Anderson's "Letter to my Former Master." What you just heard is a slightly shortened version of the original response.
劳伦斯·菲什伯恩（Laurence Fishburne）阅读乔丹·安德森（Jordan Anderson）的《给我前任主人的信》。您刚刚听到的是原始响应的稍微缩短的版本。
You can find the whole thing and countless other amazing letters on the Letters Live YouTube channel or at their website, letterslive.com.
您可以在 Letters Live YouTube 频道或他们的网站 letterlive.com 上找到整件事以及无数其他令人惊叹的信件。
Letters Live is actually coming back to New York City on the 14th.
Letters Live 实际上将于 14 日返回纽约市。
Tickets are on sale now.
门票现已发售。
One last little thing to end our show.
最后一件小事来结束我们的演出。
Recently, I went to the Blacksonian.
最近，我去了布莱克森学会。
That is not what it is called.
那不是它的名字。
It is called the National Museum of African-American History and Culture.
它被称为国家非裔美国人历史和文化博物馆。
But Blacksonian is more fun.
但布莱克森更有趣。
Anyway, it was a winter morning, busy, full of school children and teachers, parents, and chaperones.
不管怎样，那是一个冬天的早晨，忙碌，挤满了学生、老师、家长和监护人。
I took the escalator down to the bottom floor, to the history galleries, and there, in big white letters against a black wall, it says "Slavery and Freedom, 1400 to 1877," and then this short caption.
我乘自动扶梯下到底层，来到历史画廊，在那里，黑色的墙壁上用白色的大字写着“奴隶制与自由，1400 年至 1877 年”，然后是这个简短的标题。
"500 years ago, a new form of slavery transformed Africa, Europe, and the Americas.
“500 年前，一种新形式的奴隶制改变了非洲、欧洲和美洲。
For the first time, people saw other human beings as commodities, things to be bought, sold, and exploited to make enormous profits.
人们第一次将其他人视为商品，可以买卖和剥削以赚取巨额利润。
This system changed the world.
这个系统改变了世界。
The United States was created in this context, forged by slavery."
美国就是在这种背景下创建的，是由奴隶制打造的。”
I stopped reading there-- forged by slavery.
我在那里停止了阅读——那是由奴隶制铸造的。
And my first thought was, how are they allowed to say this?
我的第一个想法是，他们怎么能这么说呢？
Like, why hasn't this been flagged?
比如，为什么这没有被标记？
And then, my next thought was, what a fucked up thought.
然后，我的下一个想法是，这真是个操蛋的想法。
I know the US does not exist without slavery, but it wasn't about what I knew to be true, but what's allowed to be true in this country right now.
我知道没有奴隶制美国就不存在，但这不是我所知道的事实，而是这个国家现在允许的事实。
And it freaked me out, because what the hell, Emanuele?
这把我吓坏了，因为到底是怎么回事，伊曼纽尔？
But there was also something comforting about recognizing what my brain was doing.
但认识到我的大脑在做什么也让人感到安慰。
The way history is being reshaped in this moment, it's about power.
历史在这一刻被重塑的方式与权力有关。
It's about how the United States is changing.
这是关于美国正在如何变化的问题。
I think I've read the phrase "sliding towards authoritarianism" countless times this year.
我想今年我已经无数次读到“滑向威权主义”这个词了。
But it's not a slide, is it?
但这不是幻灯片，不是吗？
It's more like steps-- steps we the people are taking-- not just politicians, all of us.
这更像是我们人民正在采取的步骤，不仅仅是政客，还有我们所有人。
We're changing, too, taking steps so small you can miss them.
我们也在改变，采取的措施很小，你可能会错过。
But here in this museum, I caught my foot mid-air.
但在这个博物馆里，我的脚在半空中绊住了。
Our program today was produced by Emmanuel Dzotsi with editing help from Neil Drumming.
我们今天的节目由 Emmanuel Dzotsi 制作，并得到 Neil Drumming 的编辑帮助。
The people who put together today's show include Phia Bennin, Dana Chivvis, Michal Comite, Molly Marcello, Adriene Lilly, Tobin Low, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Ruthie Petitto, Nadia Reiman, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rumery, and Ike Sriskandarajah, Lilly Sullivan, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, Nancy Updike, and Julie Whitaker.
今天节目的制作人包括 Phia Bennin、Dana Chivvis、Michal Comite、Molly Marcello、Adriene Lilly、Tobin Low、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Ruthie Petitto、Nadia Reiman、Anthony Roman、Ryan Rumery 和 Ike Sriskandarajah、Lilly Sullivan、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Marisa Robertson-Textor、南希·厄普代克和朱莉·惠特克。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
The original "Our Ancestors Were Messy" team includes executive producer Adriana Ambriz, sound design by Kyle Murdock, research producer and narrator Chioke I'anson, Story Producer Martina Abrahams Ilunga.
《我们的祖先很混乱》的原班人马包括执行制片人阿德里安娜·安布里兹 (Adriana Ambriz)、凯尔·默多克 (Kyle Murdock) 的声音设计、研究制片人和旁白 Chioke I'anson、故事制片人玛蒂娜·亚伯拉罕斯·伊伦加 (Martina Abrahams Ilunga)。
Special thanks to Nate Wong, John Delore, Shaun Usher, Angelina Mosher Salazar, Abby Conklin, Tom Preston, Benjamin Dolle, and everyone at Virginia Public Media.
特别感谢 Nate Wong、John Delore、Shaun Usher、Angelina Mosher Salazar、Abby Conklin、Tom Preston、Benjamin Dolle 以及弗吉尼亚公共媒体的所有人。
Also, thanks to Conor Anderson and everyone at WDET Detroit.
另外，感谢 Conor Anderson 和 WDET 底特律的所有人。
Thanks also to our This American Life partners, premium subscribers who support the show financially, which means we can continue making this show.
还要感谢我们的《This American Life》合作伙伴以及在经济上支持该节目的高级订阅者，这意味着我们可以继续制作该节目。
Life Partners listen ad free, receive regular bonus episodes, and more.
Life Partners 收听无广告、定期接收奖励剧集等等。
And we're relying on more people signing up.
我们依赖更多的人注册。
Go to thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.
访问 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners。
That link is also in the show notes.
该链接也在节目注释中。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our host, Ira Glass.
一如既往地感谢我们的主持人艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
I swear, that man can never remember hit songs.
我发誓，那个人永远记不住热门歌曲。
He keeps calling me, asking, what's that one that made Rihanna famous?
他一直打电话给我，问我，是什么让蕾哈娜出名？
It involved an umbrella.
它涉及一把雨伞。
I'm Emanuele Berry.
我是埃马努埃莱·贝里。
Ira Glass will be back next week with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉·格拉斯将于下周回归，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。