882: Give a Little Whistle - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #882 | March 6, 2026 882: Give a Little Whistle Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 882 集 | 2026 年 3 月 6 日 882：吹口哨 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Immigration officials have been doing a lot of things lately that seem very hard to explain-- ignoring court orders, shooting civilians.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 移民官员最近做了很多似乎很难解释的事情——无视法庭命令，射杀平民。
And when asked why these things are happening, as we've all seen, we don't exactly get a frank and honest account from officials.
正如我们都看到的，当被问到为什么会发生这些事情时，我们并没有从官员那里得到坦率和诚实的说法。
What we get are talking points, many of which don't turn out to be true.
我们得到的是谈话要点，其中许多事实证明并非如此。
But recently, refreshingly, two different lawyers who work for ICE stepped forward separately and lifted the curtain to reveal all kinds of details about what is really happening right now inside our immigration system.
但最近，令人耳目一新的是，为 ICE 工作的两位不同律师分别挺身而出，揭开了我们移民系统内目前正在发生的各种细节。
And I know there have been a couple of quotes from each of these people in the news.
我知道新闻中每个人都引用过一些话。
But I have to say, when you dive into the details of everything that they witnessed, it's satisfying in this way that I really didn't even know I craved.
但我不得不说，当你深入了解他们所目睹的一切细节时，你会发现，这种满足感是我什至不知道自己渴望的。
Because they're not talking about, like, this or that specific incident, but about the entire system being broken.
因为他们不是在谈论这个或那个具体事件，而是在谈论整个系统被破坏。
And they lay it out.
他们把它摆出来。
Today on our show, what we're going to do is we're going to bring you their stories, and I think you'll see what I mean.
今天在我们的节目中，我们要做的就是为您带来他们的故事，我想您会明白我的意思。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And we're just going to jump right in right now with Act One.
我们现在就开始第一幕。
Act One, I got the memo.
第一幕，我收到了备忘录。
OK.
好的。
So this thing just happened two weeks ago, that this lawyer from ICE walked into a room full of congresspeople and gave testimony that basically just blew up his entire life, like everything he'd worked towards for years.
这件事就发生在两周前，这位来自 ICE 的律师走进一间挤满国会议员的房间，作了证词，这基本上毁掉了他的整个人生，就像他多年来为之努力的一切一样。
What was so extreme that he decided to stop training ICE agents and stop lawyering for ICE agents and instead became a whistleblower?
是什么如此极端以至于他决定停止培训 ICE 特工并停止为 ICE 特工提供律师服务，转而成为一名举报人？
Our producer, Nadia Reiman, talked to him.
我们的制片人纳迪亚·雷曼 (Nadia Reiman) 与他进行了交谈。
This whistleblower, Ryan Schwank, will tell you proudly that he's a public servant.
这位举报人瑞恩·施万克 (Ryan Schwank) 会自豪地告诉您，他是一名公务员。
Doesn't make policy and doesn't want to, thanks very much.
不制定政策也不想制定政策，非常感谢。
Not that he always agrees, but he's fine executing whatever the people in charge want to do, as long as it's legal.
并不是说他总是同意，但只要是合法的，他就可以执行负责人想做的任何事情。
He started working for the government under President Biden.
他开始为拜登总统领导的政府工作。
He'd been representing immigrants, but now he was representing ICE in the Department of Homeland Security, prosecuting immigration cases.
他一直代表移民，但现在他在国土安全部代表 ICE 起诉移民案件。
The way he saw it, he was fulfilling the same purpose in both roles-- ensuring procedural fairness, due process, making sure the system worked the same for everyone and worked smoothly.
在他看来，他在这两个角色中都在实现相同的目的——确保程序公平、正当程序，确保系统对每个人都同样有效且顺利运行。
It bugged him if things got mucky or slow, like when the Biden administration was dragging its feet on immigration cases.
如果事情变得糟糕或缓慢，比如拜登政府在移民案件上拖延时间，他就会感到烦恼。
But then last May, under the Trump administration, all ICE lawyers got instructions that Ryan found alarming.
但去年五月，在特朗普政府的领导下，所有 ICE 律师都收到了令瑞安感到震惊的指示。
They were told to ask for their cases to be dismissed when they went to court, which allowed ICE agents to arrest immigrants right there and then, often as soon as they walked out the door.
他们被告知在上法庭时要求驳回他们的案件，这使得 ICE 特工可以当场逮捕移民，通常是在他们走出家门时。
Ryan was like, how could people have due process if there's no time to make their case and then they're getting immediately arrested?
瑞安说，如果人们没有时间提出自己的案子，然后他们就会立即被捕，那么他们怎么可能有正当程序呢？
He wasn't sure what to do, but he's such a rule follower that he didn't tell anyone about these new instructions, not even his wife.
他不知道该怎么做，但他是一个严格遵守规则的人，他没有告诉任何人这些新指示，甚至包括他的妻子。
That's kind of the problem with being a lawyer, right?
这就是作为一名律师的问题，对吧？
I can talk to her about generalities.
我可以和她谈论一般性的事情。
I can't talk to her about specific policies.
我不能和她谈论具体政策。
Oh.
哦。
So you were just like, I'm generally feeling this?
所以你就像，我一般都有这种感觉？
Kind of, yeah.
有点，是的。
I try to be very careful with what I would say to not give away agency practices.
我尽量非常小心地表达自己的观点，以免泄露代理机构的做法。
But I explained to her there's kind of thing is happening.
但我向她解释说有些事情正在发生。
And then, of course, it was out in the news, like, two days later, right?
然后，当然，两天后，这件事就出现在新闻中了，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
Did she advise you to do something?
她有建议你做某事吗？
Or was she like, here's what I think you--
或者她是这样的，这就是我对你的看法——
She just said follow your ethical guidelines.
她只是说遵循你的道德准则。
She was the one actually, I think, suggested calling the bar association.
我认为，她实际上是建议给律师协会打电话的人。
So that's what I did.
这就是我所做的。
She's like, you should call that hotline.
她说，你应该拨打该热线。
I know they have one.
我知道他们有一个。
So he did.
所以他做到了。
He called the state bar association.
他致电州律师协会。
And they said, yep, that's not ethical.
他们说，是的，这不道德。
He talked to his boss.
他和他的老板谈过。
His boss said, OK, I get it.
他的老板说，好吧，我明白了。
You don't have to do these.
你不必做这些。
I'll do them.
我会做他们的。
But Ryan figured that he could only dodge these for so long.
但瑞安认为他只能躲避这些。
So he started to wonder what was next for him.
于是他开始思考自己接下来要做什么。
Then one day his supervisor told him, you know, with this surge of thousands of new ICE agents DHS is hiring, they need people to train them in Glynco, Georgia.
然后有一天，他的主管告诉他，你知道，随着国土安全部正在招聘数千名新的 ICE 特工，他们需要有人在佐治亚州的格林科对他们进行培训。
You interested?
你有兴趣吗？
And to me, it seemed like a great opportunity.
对我来说，这似乎是一个很好的机会。
One, part of it was self-interested.
第一，部分原因是自私。
Like, if I'm the attorney who's in Glynco, teaching, I'm not the attorney in the courtroom who's having to answer the ethical question of, am I OK prosecuting this case?
就像，如果我是在 Glynco 任教的律师，我就不是法庭上必须回答道德问题的律师：我可以起诉这个案件吗？
You were just like, not it, I'm going to dodge and go do this other thing so that I don't get--
你只是说，不是，我要躲开，去做另一件事，这样我就不会——
I would love to say otherwise.
我很想说的是。
I would love to be like, this was just 100% profile-in-courage type stuff.
我很乐意说，这只是 100% 的勇气型的东西。
But it's not.
但事实并非如此。
It's a combination of I could see the writing on the wall and I saw the opportunity to do good.
这是我看到不祥之兆和做好事的机会的结合。
This was an opportunity to go teach, which is something I've always liked doing.
这是一个去教书的机会，这是我一直喜欢做的事情。
But then, of course, I got to Glynco, and all of that changed the day I got there.
但后来，当然，我到达了 Glynco，所有这一切都在我到达那里的那一天发生了变化。
So September 1 was the day I arrived in Glynco, Georgia.
9 月 1 日是我抵达佐治亚州格林科的那一天。
I have to go back and check my records, but I think September 2 was the first morning that I went to the academy.
我得回去查一下我的记录，但我想9月2日是我去学院的第一个早晨。
I showed up early in the morning.
我一早就出现了。
And I had to go through and get my badge.
我必须通过并领取我的徽章。
And then I went to the academy training building.
然后我就去了学院训练楼。
And while I was there, the very first thing I heard was a conversation about background checks on cadets and how they weren't being completed before they came to the academy and that we already had had problems with cadets showing up that had disqualifying criminal offenses and the concerns that we were going to have cadets coming through that we couldn't background check sufficiently to know whether or not they were going to be able to finish the program or be allowed to carry a firearm.
当我在那里时，我听到的第一件事是关于学员背景调查的谈话，以及他们在进入学院之前如何没有完成的谈话，我们已经遇到了一些问题，学员出现时有取消资格的刑事犯罪，并且担心我们将有学员通过，我们无法充分进行背景调查，以了解他们是否能够完成课程或被允许携带枪支。
You took an agency that hires maybe a thousand people a year and told it to process 10,000 people in three months.
您选择了一家每年雇用大约 1000 名员工的机构，并要求其在三个月内处理 10,000 名员工。
There simply weren't the resources to run all the background checks ahead of time.
根本没有资源来提前运行所有背景调查。
They were just delayed.
他们只是被耽搁了。
They were backlogged.
他们积压了。
They had people showing up to the academy who had not completed background checks.
他们让一些没有完成背景调查的人出现在学院里。
And my first response to hearing this thing about the background checks was, wow, that's a growth like a teething pain.
当我听到有关背景调查的事情时，我的第一反应是，哇，这就像出牙时的疼痛一样。
Like, this is a problem.
就像，这是一个问题。
This is something they're going to solve very quickly.
这是他们很快就会解决的问题。
This was a mistake because we just started.
这是一个错误，因为我们才刚刚开始。
We just started this big process.
我们刚刚开始这个大过程。
This was clearly an administrative error.
这显然是一个行政错误。
And they're going to fix it.
他们会解决这个问题。
As we later found out, it was an issue that recurred repeatedly at the academy.
后来我们发现，这个问题在学院里反复出现。
And there was another issue that came up on that first day.
第一天还出现了另一个问题。
We were in this big conference room.
我们在这个大会议室里。
And my supervisor and I are in there.
我和我的主管也在里面。
I think there are a couple other people in the room.
我认为房间里还有其他几个人。
I couldn't name who exactly.
我无法准确说出是谁。
But she shows me the memos.
但她给我看了备忘录。
My supervisor shows me these memos.
我的主管给我看了这些备忘录。
And I'm told you can read it, but you're not allowed to keep a copy of it, and you're not allowed to take notes on it.
我听说你可以阅读它，但不允许你保留它的副本，也不允许你在上面做笔记。
What did you make of that?
你对此有何看法？
Ryan Schwank I had never received an order like that ever in my career at any time.
Ryan Schwank 在我的职业生涯中，我从未收到过这样的订单。
It was bizarre to me, and it was a massive red flag from the moment she had said that to me-- before I even read the memo, to me, was a massive red flag before I read the first word on the page.
这对我来说很奇怪，从她对我说这句话的那一刻起，这就是一个巨大的危险信号——在我读备忘录之前，对我来说，在我读到页面上的第一个单词之前，这是一个巨大的危险信号。
Then he read the memo.
然后他读了备忘录。
Ryan Schwank It was issued by Todd Lyons, the acting director for ICE, that instructed ICE officers that they could enter into a person's home without a judicial warrant.
Ryan Schwank 这是 ICE 代理主任 Todd Lyons 发布的，指示 ICE 官员可以在没有司法令的情况下进入某人的家中。
In other words, instead of ICE agents getting permission from a judge to go into someone's home, they would only need to get approval from ICE using a form called I-205.
换句话说，ICE 特工无需获得法官的许可即可进入某人的家中，而只需使用名为 I-205 的表格获得 ICE 的批准即可。
Well, it's funny.
嗯，这很有趣。
When I first read it, it was so innocuous sounding that at first, I didn't think there was anything wrong with it.
当我第一次读到它时，它听起来很无伤大雅，一开始我并不认为它有什么问题。
I read through it and was like, oh, OK, so we're going to use I-205s to go into houses.
我读完之后心想，哦，好吧，所以我们要使用 205 号州际公路进入房屋。
OK.
好的。
And then it was kind of like when you see a cartoon character, like their feet stop, and they try to brake, and they kind of, like, skid.
然后有点像当你看到一个卡通人物时，他们的脚停下来，他们试图刹车，他们有点像打滑。
That's kind of what my brain did as I read this.
当我读到这篇文章时，我的大脑就是这么做的。
I was like, wait a second.
我当时想，等一下。
And then I read it through again more carefully the second time.
然后我又仔细地读了一遍。
And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
我当时就想，哇，哇，哇，哇，哇。
Heck.
哎呀。
The Fourth Amendment of the US Constitution says a warrant is needed to enter someone's home.
美国宪法第四修正案规定，进入某人的家需要搜查令。
And courts have consistently said that this applies to everyone who is physically in the country, not just citizens.
法院一直表示，这适用于在该国境内的所有人，而不仅仅是公民。
So Ryan saw this new policy and he thought--
所以瑞安看到了这项新政策，他想——
Oh, no. Oh, no. I was by no means at the time an expert on the Fourth Amendment.
哦，不。哦，不。当时我绝不是第四修正案的专家。
Obviously, I know the Fourth Amendment because I'm an attorney.
显然，我了解第四修正案，因为我是一名律师。
But it's not like I'm a constitutional scholar on the thing, looking for things to nitpick.
但我并不是一个研究这件事的宪法学者，寻找挑剔的东西。
I'm a lawyer who knows the Fourth Amendment the way most lawyers know the Fourth Amendment-- as a thing that you learned about and apply in generalities.
我是一名律师，我对第四修正案的了解就像大多数律师对第四修正案的了解一样——作为您了解并普遍应用的内容。
And even at that level, looking at this, I was like, this, this is wrong.
即使在那个水平上，看着这个，我就想，这，这是错误的。
And my instructor, my supervisor, was clear, if you're not comfortable teaching this, just tell us.
我的导师、我的主管很清楚，如果你不愿意教这个，请告诉我们。
Ryan says his boss also casually brought up that the person who worked here before him had expressed concerns about it, said they felt strongly enough about these concerns to resign, and now they don't work here anymore.
瑞安说，他的老板还漫不经心地提到，在他之前在这里工作的人曾表达过对此的担忧，并表示他们对这些担忧的感受足够强烈，因此要辞职，现在他们不再在这里工作了。
Like saying, nice job you got there-- would be a shame if something happened to it.
就像说，你干得好——如果发生什么事情那就太可惜了。
I don't think I was told the story by accident.
我不认为我被告知这个故事是偶然的。
I was told all this before I was shown the memo.
在我看到备忘录之前我就被告知了这一切。
So it was very clear to me that I was being told all of this and then shown the memos that I understood I either teach this or I lose my job.
所以我很清楚，我被告知了所有这些，然后向我展示了备忘录，我明白我要么教这个，要么丢掉工作。
You're going out the door, and you're going home-- and not home to work back in Indianapolis.
你要走出家门，然后回家——而不是回到印第安纳波利斯工作。
You're going home as in you're done.
你要回家了，就像你完成了一样。
You're done with the agency.
你和这个机构的关系就结束了。
Ryan mumbled something about having to think it over.
瑞安嘟囔着说得好好考虑一下。
I kind of backpedaled a little bit and kept my answer vague.
我有点后退了一步，让我的回答含糊其辞。
Weirdly enough, my supervisor's like, do you want to go get lunch?
奇怪的是，我的主管问，你想去吃午饭吗？
And then we come back.
然后我们回来。
And then I excused myself, and I went home.
然后我就告辞回家了。
And I called my wife.
我打电话给我的妻子。
And I was like, honey, I think I've kind of walked into a bear trap here.
我当时想，亲爱的，我想我有点走进了这里的熊陷阱。
And within this bear trap, another bear trap.
在这个捕熊陷阱内，还有另一个捕熊陷阱。
Ryan had also been told, when you teach this, don't write anything down.
瑞安还被告知，当你教这个时，不要写下任何东西。
Deliver the information verbally, no paper trail.
以口头方式传递信息，没有书面记录。
So he checked the existing curriculum to see what it said about using warrants to enter people's homes.
因此，他检查了现有的课程，看看其中关于使用搜查令进入人们家中的内容。
And just remember, there are written training materials for the classes.
请记住，课程有书面培训材料。
And in the training materials, it says an I-205 admin warrant is not a search warrant.
在培训材料中，它说 I-205 管理令不是搜查令。
You may not use it to enter into a protected or private area.
您不得使用它进入受保护或私人区域。
So the training documents say the exact opposite of what the policy says.
所以培训文件的说法与政策的说法完全相反。
And I was told that we were not going to change that, that we were not to put it in writing that we trained them differently.
我被告知我们不会改变这一点，我们不会以书面形式表明我们对他们进行了不同的培训。
And the whole time, I was going, I probably need to report this.
一直以来，我都在想，我可能需要报告这件事。
I probably need to report this to somebody.
我可能需要向某人报告此事。
So for the first couple of days, I'm buying time as I try to figure out what I want to do.
所以在最初的几天里，我正在争取时间来弄清楚我想做什么。
I'm just kind of staying in the background, trying to stay under the radar.
我只是躲在幕后，试图躲在雷达之下。
I start looking into our internal avenues for reporting things.
我开始研究我们报告事情的内部途径。
And what I found was that they had all either been compromised or destroyed.
我发现它们要么被泄露，要么被摧毁。
Like, they had all been fired or reassigned.
就像，他们都被解雇或重新分配了。
Civil rights, civil liberties was essentially gone.
公民权利、公民自由基本上消失了。
What's called the Office of the Ombudsman was essentially gone.
所谓的监察员办公室基本上消失了。
The only thing that was left was the Office of the Inspector General for ICE.
唯一剩下的就是 ICE 监察长办公室。
The Office of the Inspector General, OIG.
监察长办公室，OIG。
And the rumors I saw online were that if you reported to OIG, there's a good chance that OIG would out you to your own management.
我在网上看到的传言是，如果你向监察办汇报，监察办很有可能会把你交给自己的管理层。
So you have nobody left to report it to, basically.
所以基本上没有人可以向你报告此事。
I had one group I could report it to.
我有一个可以向其报告的小组。
And that was Congress.
那就是国会。
So I remember this.
所以我记住了这一点。
I was sitting in the hotel room I was in, in a chair, looking out the window at the gas station across the street.
我坐在酒店房间的椅子上，看着窗外街对面的加油站。
And I was like, I don't have a choice.
我当时想，我别无选择。
I have to do this.
我必须这样做。
If I don't report this, nobody is going to report this, and it's going to come out years later when people have been hurt because of it.
如果我不报告这件事，没有人会报告这件事，而且几年后当人们因此受到伤害时，它就会被揭露出来。
I have to report this.
我必须报告此事。
And so I went through-- there was a process for filing a whistleblower claim with the Oversight Committee at the House.
所以我经历了一个向众议院监督委员会提交举报人索赔的程序。
Back in September, I made my initial report.
早在九月份，我就做出了初步报告。
I just described in very brief detail what was happening.
我只是非常简短地描述了所发生的事情。
And then a couple of days later, they reached out to me to set up a call.
几天后，他们联系我并安排了通话。
And I started to tell them a little bit about what was happening.
我开始告诉他们一些发生的事情。
But I told them, look, I can tell you what I saw, but I can't show you proof of it.
但我告诉他们，看，我可以告诉你我所看到的，但我不能向你展示证据。
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
Ryan Schwank I don't have the memo.
Ryan Schwank 我没有备忘录。
So, clearly, the House would have to vet Ryan's report, which can take weeks or months.
因此，显然众议院必须审查瑞安的报告，这可能需要数周或数月的时间。
And all that had to happen without Ryan getting outed to anybody at ICE.
所有这一切都必须在 Ryan 没有被 ICE 任何人揭发的情况下发生。
Why were you deciding to still stay at that point?
你为什么决定留在那个时候？
If not me, then who?
如果不是我，那又是谁呢？
If I left, it would not change what they do.
如果我离开，他们的工作也不会改变。
It would not change how things were done.
它不会改变事情的完成方式。
I had had this conversation with myself and with my wife and with others.
我和我自己、我的妻子和其他人都进行过这样的对话。
If I left, who was going to replace me?
如果我走了，谁来代替我？
And the answer was going to be someone who had no frame of reference for the way things should look.
答案将是那些对事物应该如何发展没有参考框架的人。
Coming up, while Ryan stays at his job, he witnesses all kinds of other things in the cadet training that he finds very, very worrisome as somebody who wants capable ICE agents out on the street.
接下来，当瑞安继续工作时，他在学员训练中目睹了各种各样的其他事情，作为一个希望有能力的 ICE 特工走上街头的人，他觉得这些事情非常非常令人担忧。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
Nadia Reiman's story about ICE whistleblower Ryan Schwank continues.
纳迪亚·雷曼 (Nadia Reiman) 关于 ICE 举报人瑞恩·施万克 (Ryan Schwank) 的故事仍在继续。
So Ryan stays and teaches at Glynco, Georgia, at the ICE academy there.
因此，Ryan 留在佐治亚州 Glynco 的 ICE 学院任教。
It's at a training campus by the beach.
这是在海滩边的训练场。
It has things like a mat room, literally a room full of mats to practice tackling someone down.
它有一个垫子室之类的东西，实际上是一个装满垫子的房间，用来练习扑倒某人。
It has a fake town, like a movie set, to practice arrests, classrooms, a cafeteria, shooting ranges.
它有一个像电影布景一样的假城镇，有教室、自助餐厅和射击场。
Ryan says it was strange to be right by the ocean next to towns that are vacation destinations and still hear gunshots all day long.
瑞安说，在度假胜地的城镇旁边的海边，仍然整天听到枪声，这很奇怪。
Ryan started teaching after immigration agents had spent the summer blanketing Los Angeles but before the big surges in Chicago and Minneapolis.
瑞安在移民代理整个夏天覆盖洛杉矶之后、芝加哥和明尼阿波利斯的移民潮大幅增加之前开始教书。
He says his team was told that about 3,000 cadets who had no prior law enforcement experience were coming to the campus in Georgia.
他说，他的团队被告知，大约 3,000 名之前没有执法经验的学员将来到佐治亚州的校园。
And his job was to help turn them into new ICE agents.
他的工作是帮助他们成为新的 ICE 特工。
DHS wanted them to graduate by Christmas.
国土安全部希望他们在圣诞节前毕业。
So Ryan is looking at the curriculum, and he's trying to figure out how to teach these cadets and teach them fast.
所以瑞安正在研究课程，他试图找出如何教这些学员并快速教他们。
Rules around the use of force, basic immigration law, how to react when someone's running away-- all this stuff has to be so ingrained in these cadets that they don't even think about it when they're out on the field.
关于使用武力的规则、基本移民法、当有人逃跑时如何反应——所有这些东西都必须在这些学员中根深蒂固，以至于他们在上战场时甚至不会考虑这些。
They just do the right thing instinctively, reach for the right tool, apply the right rule.
他们只是本能地做正确的事情，使用正确的工具，应用正确的规则。
Do I use verbal commands?
我使用口头命令吗？
Do I use handcuffs?
我使用手铐吗？
Do I use physical restraints?
我使用身体束缚吗？
Do I use pepper spray?
我使用胡椒喷雾吗？
Do I use a taser?
我使用泰瑟枪吗？
Do I use a baton?
我用警棍吗？
Do I use a gun?
我用枪吗？
Were you teaching all of that in the context of, here's what you're legally allowed to do, like that was your part of the training?
您是否在法律允许您这样做的背景下教授所有这些内容，就像这是您培训的一部分一样？
That was something I was supposed to teach, but they cut it from the curriculum.
这是我应该教的东西，但他们从课程中删除了它。
There was a class the lawyers would teach that focused on the law behind use of force.
律师们会教授一门课程，重点关注使用武力背后的法律。
And it was part of the broader scope of classes we would teach about the officer's constitutional authority and the limitations of their authority.
这是我们将教授的关于军官的宪法权力及其权力限制的更广泛课程的一部分。
Wow.
哇。
When did you realize that that was cut?
你什么时候意识到那段被剪掉了？
When I saw the curriculum.
当我看到课程表时。
Nadia Reiman Ryan realized when he was comparing the new curriculum to the old one that a lot of stuff, like a comprehensive firearms exam, had been cut, while other stuff had been so compressed, he found it hard to believe it would be understandable, let alone absorbable.
纳迪亚·雷曼·瑞安（Nadia Reiman Ryan）在将新课程与旧课程进行比较时意识到，很多内容（例如综合枪械考试）被删减，而其他内容则被如此压缩，他发现很难相信新课程可以理解，更不用说可以吸收了。
Like, for example, a class about the Constitution that used to be two hours and a class on the limits to use of authority that also used to be two hours-- he says they were now squeezed into one short lecture that also covered other topics, like immigration and civil liberties.
例如，一堂关于宪法的课程过去需要两个小时，一堂关于权力使用限制的课程过去也需要两个小时——他说，现在这些课程被挤进一个简短的讲座，还涵盖了其他主题，例如移民和公民自由。
And that's just one example of the ways the curriculum had been compressed.
这只是课程被压缩的方式之一。
Total teaching hours had been cut by 40%.
总教学时间减少了 40%。
So have you ever seen a tree die from the inside?
那么你见过一棵树从内部死亡吗？
They rot from the inside outwards?
它们是从内向外腐烂的吗？
No. Ryan Schwank So maybe you'll see this sometime if you were going to the woods.
不。 Ryan Schwank 所以如果你去树林里的话也许你会看到这个。
You'll see a tree that looks completely solid on the outside.
你会看到一棵从外面看起来完全坚固的树。
The bark is intact.
树皮完好无损。
The shell is intact.
外壳完好无损。
But if you push it, it will just snap.
但如果你推它，它就会折断。
And you'll look inside, and the whole core is gone.
你往里面看，整个核心都消失了。
It's just hollowed out on the inside.
只是里面被掏空了而已。
That's kind of how the training academy was.
培训学院就是这样。
Meanwhile, Ryan still has to figure out how to deal with this memo.
与此同时，瑞安仍然需要弄清楚如何处理这份备忘录。
Does he teach it?
他教吗？
So did you tell cadets, when you were training them, that they should go into houses without a warrant?
那么，当你训练学员时，你有没有告诉他们，他们应该在没有搜查令的情况下进入房屋？
No. Nadia Reiman Or did you find a way--
不，纳迪亚·雷曼（Nadia Reiman）或者你找到办法了吗——
So what I would tell cadets, I would tell cadets, this policy is out there.
所以我会告诉学员，我会告诉学员，这项政策就在那里。
First and foremost, if I could avoid the subject, I would.
首先，如果我能回避这个话题，我会的。
But in the classes where it would come up, I would discuss the memo like this.
但在课堂上出现这个问题时，我会像这样讨论这份备忘录。
I would tell cadets, this policy is out there.
我会告诉学员，这项政策已经存在。
This policy is the agency's position on it.
该政策是该机构的立场。
It has not been tested in the courts.
它尚未在法庭上得到检验。
There is nothing that says you can do this.
没有任何内容表明您可以做到这一点。
But it's the agency's position that you can.
但这是该机构的立场，你可以这样做。
If you're going to go out and use this, you need to check with your local management, first and foremost, because that's what they told us to say.
如果您要出去使用它，您首先需要咨询当地管理层，因为他们就是这么告诉我们的。
And I would tell them, if you have questions, I would say, talk to your local OPLA office first.
我会告诉他们，如果您有疑问，我会说，请先与您当地的 OPLA 办公室联系。
OPLA, Office of the Principal Legal Advisor, a.k.a.
OPLA，首席法律顾问办公室，又名
your local on-call ICE attorneys.
您当地的待命 ICE 律师。
Because I know my colleagues in OPLA by and large are going to tell them that this is hoodoo, that it's absolutely unlawful.
因为我知道我在 OPLA 的同事总的来说会告诉他们这是不祥之兆，绝对是非法的。
And I have confidence in my colleagues to say that.
我相信我的同事会这么说。
Often, Ryan's job involved observing cadets during role-playing exercises in the movie set, fake city part of the campus.
瑞安的工作通常是在电影场景（校园的假城市部分）中观察学员进行角色扮演练习。
Cadets would be given loose instructions like, target is inside that bodega, go get them.
学员们会得到宽松的指示，比如，目标在那个杂货店里，去抓他们。
And instructors would participate sometimes but mostly just watch and give notes.
导师有时也会参与，但大多只是观看和做笔记。
Sometimes scenarios would go off script.
有时场景会脱离剧本。
Sometimes role players would change things.
有时角色扮演者会改变事情。
So you would sometimes see scenarios that don't normally involve firearms, for instance, turn into a firearm scenario.
因此，您有时会看到通常不涉及枪支的场景，例如，变成枪支场景。
And when this would happen, you would see the cadets do things that would jeopardize themselves and others, like pulling firearms at times that are inappropriate or pointing firearms at people they shouldn't be pointing them at, making arrests of individuals that had not committed a crime.
当这种情况发生时，你会看到学员们做出一些会危及自己和他人的事情，比如在不适当的时候拔出枪支，或者将枪支指向不应该指向的人，逮捕没有犯罪的人。
This pointed out to Ryan bad habits or instincts that they needed to teach out of the cadets, but there was so little time.
这向瑞安指出了他们需要向学员传授的坏习惯或本能，但时间太少了。
And cadets started telling him that they were going to be sent to Minneapolis, which was already underway and all over the news.
学员们开始告诉他，他们将被送往明尼阿波利斯，这件事已经在进行中，并且遍布新闻。
He kept thinking about that during the trainings.
在训练期间，他一直在思考这个问题。
There's this scenario where they're making an arrest outside a business.
在这种情况下，他们在企业外进行逮捕。
And the individual's not combative or anything like that.
而且这个人并不好斗或类似的事情。
The officers are placing them under arrest outside a business.
警察在一家企业外将他们逮捕。
And in this particular scenario, we had enough role players that we had a few acting as observers, a few acting as people from the public doing exactly as in Minneapolis, which is coming up with their cell phone and filming with their cell phone and yelling, hey, what are you doing?
在这个特殊的场景中，我们有足够多的角色扮演者，其中一些人充当观察员，一些人扮演公众的角色，就像在明尼阿波利斯一样，拿出他们的手机，用手机拍摄，然后大喊，嘿，你在做什么？
Telling the officers that they're fascists or whatever, just like they say in Minneapolis.
告诉警察他们是法西斯分子或者其他什么，就像他们在明尼阿波利斯说的那样。
And this one cadet was on what they call a perimeter.
这名学员位于他们所谓的外围。
This one role player, protester, got, I guess, too close to the officer's comfort zone.
我猜，这个角色扮演者，抗议者，太接近警官的舒适区了。
I didn't think it was close enough.
我认为它还不够接近。
I think any of the other instructors thought it was close enough.
我想其他教练都认为这已经足够接近了。
But they thought it was close enough that they told him to back up.
但他们认为距离足够近，所以让他后退。
And then immediately-- I don't think they gave them time to respond, like to react to the command to back up-- pulled out their pepper spray.
然后立即——我认为他们没有给他们时间做出反应，比如对后退的命令做出反应——拿出了胡椒喷雾。
And this kid had simulated using the pepper spray to pepper spray this role player.
这个孩子模拟了用胡椒喷雾向这个角色扮演者喷胡椒喷雾。
And it was categorically-- I don't think a single instructor there thought that it was an appropriate use.
毫无疑问，我不认为那里的任何一位讲师认为这是适当的用途。
It was not appropriate.
这是不合适的。
It was not justified by the circumstances.
从当时的情况来看，这是不合理的。
And when we asked the cadet afterwards what happened, their explanation was that this is what they were seeing in Minneapolis, that they were doing it just like they would up there.
当我们事后询问学员发生了什么事时，他们的解释是，这就是他们在明尼阿波利斯看到的情况，他们正在这样做，就像他们在那里一样。
For Ryan, what he was seeing on the news, which was experienced officers being too aggressive too often, that made him more alarmed about what he was seeing during his own shortened trainings.
对于瑞安来说，他在新闻中看到的是经验丰富的警官经常过于激进，这让他对自己在缩短的训练中所看到的情况更加感到震惊。
And what he was seeing during trainings was making him more alarmed about what he was seeing on the news.
他在训练中看到的情况让他对新闻中看到的情况更加震惊。
He worried his cadets weren't ready.
他担心他的学员还没有准备好。
Some cadets worried too.
一些学员也很担心。
Did they seem scared?
他们看起来害怕吗？
Did any of them come to you and say we don't feel prepared enough?
他们中有人来找你说我们准备得不够吗？
We don't feel ready?
我们还没有准备好吗？
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
I had cadets say that to us.
我让学员对我们这么说。
I had cadets on multiple occasions say they felt unprepared for the job.
我的学员曾多次表示，他们对这份工作感到没有做好准备。
I remember one cadet was talking to us about-- we were dealing with the issue of entry into a yard.
我记得一位学员正在和我们谈论——我们正在处理进入院子的问题。
And the cadet was having a lot of difficulty understanding how to apply that set of rules.
学员很难理解如何应用这套规则。
We walked them through it a couple of times.
我们引导他们经历了几次。
And he was talking about how everything in the academy kind of goes in one ear and out the other because they're rushed from one thing to the next to try to meet that schedule.
他说的是学院里的一切事情都是一只耳朵进，另一只耳朵出，因为他们从一件事赶到另一件事，试图满足时间表。
Of course, fast training can still be rigorous training, as long as you test people to make sure they got it.
当然，快速训练仍然可以是严格的训练，只要你测试人们以确保他们得到了它。
And Ryan says that in this new compressed training, crucial real-world skills were not adequately tested, like using a gun correctly or subduing somebody in the field.
瑞安表示，在这种新的压缩训练中，关键的现实技能没有得到充分的测试，比如正确使用枪支或在战场上制服某人。
Under the old academy structure, what existed before the surge, these practical exercises were graded.
在旧的学院结构下，在浪潮之前存在的情况下，这些实践练习是分级的。
The students had to pass these exercises to graduate.
学生必须通过这些练习才能毕业。
If they didn't pass the exercise, if they demonstrated a lack of knowledge of the law or the tactics involved, they had to repeat the class.
如果他们没有通过练习，如果他们表现出缺乏法律知识或所涉及的策略，他们就必须重读课程。
And if they failed twice, they were out.
如果他们失败两次，他们就出局了。
They did not get to graduate.
他们没有毕业。
Meaning they wouldn't become an ICE officer.
这意味着他们不会成为 ICE 官员。
But now things were different.
但现在情况不同了。
So now, no matter what we saw the cadets do in these scenarios, they still graduated.
所以现在，无论我们看到学员在这些场景中做什么，他们仍然毕业了。
We could tell a cadet up and down that they were going to get themselves killed in the field or get arrested or violate the law with what they were doing, and I hope and I believe many cadets listened to that.
我们可以上下告诉学员，他们将在战场上丧命，或被捕，或因他们所做的事情而触犯法律，我希望并且我相信许多学员听到了这一点。
But it didn't matter if they didn't.
但如果他们不这样做也没关系。
They could still graduate, no matter what we saw them do.
无论我们看到他们做什么，他们仍然可以毕业。
We reached out to DHS to ask about all of this.
我们联系了国土安全部询问所有这一切。
They didn't respond.
他们没有回应。
They did claim, though, in a statement in February that, quote, "No training requirements have been removed." The statement says that, actually, the training has been beefed up from 8 hours a day to 12 hours a day.
不过，他们在二月份的一份声明中确实声称，“没有取消任何培训要求。”声明称，实际上，培训时间已从每天8小时增加到每天12小时。
It also somehow claims that the hours are the same number of hours that recruits have always received.
它还以某种方式声称这些小时数与新兵一直收到的小时数相同。
DHS says they're teaching the Fourth and Fifth Amendments in a way that is, quote, "structured and comprehensive." They called it "integral."
国土安全部表示，他们正在以“结构化且全面”的方式教授第四修正案和第五修正案。他们称之为“整体”。
When Ryan first made his report, it was about the memo.
当瑞安第一次发表报告时，是关于备忘录的。
That was his main concern.
这是他主要关心的问题。
But now, over five months of teaching, he'd seen so many things wrong with the training, he felt like that needed its own report.
但现在，经过五个多月的教学，他发现培训中存在很多问题，他觉得需要自己的报告。
And he felt like somebody needed to be the face of that to make it as credible as possible.
他觉得需要有人来代表这一点，以使其尽可能可信。
In January, immigration agents killed Renee Good and then Alex Pretti.
一月份，移民特工杀死了蕾妮·古德（Renee Good），然后杀死了亚历克斯·普雷蒂（Alex Pretti）。
That same month, Ryan started talking to congressional staffers about going public, testifying to Congress.
同月，瑞安开始与国会工作人员谈论公开向国会作证的事宜。
He was going to take some time to relocate his family, and then he'd resign from the academy.
他要花一些时间来安置家人，然后他就会从学院辞职。
He told his wife, his parents, and his in-laws about his plan, but not all his siblings or extended family.
他告诉了他的妻子、父母和姻亲他的计划，但没有告诉他所有的兄弟姐妹或大家庭。
Part of it was I don't want to burden them with certain things.
部分原因是我不想给他们增加某些事情的负担。
And then also, you have to keep in mind that I was working for the Department of Homeland Security.
另外，你还必须记住，我曾在国土安全部工作。
I was working for the largest law enforcement agency in the United States.
我在美国最大的执法机构工作。
I, frankly, wasn't confident that I could communicate with my family over the phone without the conversations getting flagged.
坦率地说，我不相信自己可以通过电话与家人沟通而不被标记。
Really?
真的吗？
Ryan Schwank And I don't want to sound paranoid.
Ryan Schwank：我不想听起来偏执。
I want to sound like, oh, I think they're monitoring everybody.
我想说，哦，我认为他们正在监视每个人。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But the problem is I don't know.
但问题是我不知道。
It was precautionary, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，这是预防措施。
I just wasn't willing to have certain conversations over an open line.
我只是不愿意通过公开线路进行某些对话。
Ryan testified on February 23, not even two weeks ago, as I'm recording this.
瑞安于 2 月 23 日作证，当时还不到两周前，当时我正在记录此事。
Thank you, Senator Blumenthal, Representative Garcia, members of the committee.
谢谢布卢门撒尔参议员、加西亚众议员和委员会成员。
My name is Ryan Schwank.
我叫瑞安·施万克。
I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution when I joined ICE on August 1, 2021.
我于 2021 年 8 月 1 日加入 ICE 时宣誓维护宪法。
Look, I don't think anybody walks away from community they were a member of, the social community they were a member of, lightly.
听着，我认为没有人会轻易地离开他们所属的社区、他们所属的社会社区。
I would have told you six months ago that I had strong friendships with some of the attorneys I worked with, that I had officers that I could go and have a beer with, people that were part of my life that I fully expect are never going to speak to me again.
六个月前我会告诉你，我和一些与我共事的律师有着深厚的友谊，我有可以一起去喝啤酒的官员，我完全希望那些已经成为我生活一部分的人永远不会再和我说话。
Oh, Ryan, I didn't realize that you felt like you had lost your community.
哦，瑞安，我没有意识到你感觉自己失去了社区。
Well, it's that.
嗯，就是这样。
It's the combination of uncertainty going forward.
这是未来不确定性的结合。
I have no idea what I'm going to do next.
我不知道接下来要做什么。
I have a child.
我有一个孩子。
I have a wife.
我有一个妻子。
I have a family.
我有一个家庭。
I walked away from a well-paid, secure career, doing something that I thought was good, into a world where I have no job security.
我放弃了一份高薪、有保障的职业，去做一些我认为好的事情，进入了一个没有工作保障的世界。
I have no idea what the future holds.
我不知道未来会怎样。
I told my wife when I walked off the Senate floor the-- the words that kept going through my head was, and now, for the rest of my life-- sorry.
当我走出参议院时，我告诉我的妻子——这句话一直在我的脑海中萦绕，现在，在我的余生中——对不起。
I didn't think this conversation would make me emotional, but it does.
我不认为这次谈话会让我情绪激动，但事实确实如此。
It's OK.
没关系。
Ryan Schwank I can just have a second?
Ryan Schwank 我可以再等一下吗？
We took a small break.
我们休息了一会儿。
Nadia Reiman Hello.
纳迪亚·雷曼 你好。
I want to say something real quick before we keep going.
在我们继续之前，我想快速说几句话。
For the last four and a half years, this has been my life, right?
在过去的四年半里，这就是我的生活，对吗？
But I'm the son of an immigrant.
但我是移民的儿子。
My father is a doctor from Guatemala who came to the US to practice.
我的父亲是一名来自危地马拉的医生，来到美国行医。
And because he came here to practice from Guatemala, he had a fantastic life.
因为他从危地马拉来到这里训练，所以他的生活非常美好。
He had a very successful career as a neurosurgeon.
作为一名神经外科医生，他的职业生涯非常成功。
I grew up with hundreds of immigrant friends and family members.
我与数百名移民朋友和家人一起长大。
When I took this job, I gave up the tribe I had before.
当我接受这份工作时，我放弃了我之前拥有的部落。
I lost a lot of friends over my decision to go work for ICE.
由于我决定去 ICE 工作，我失去了很多朋友。
And that was a hard transition too.
这也是一个艰难的转变。
And I know that that's one of the things that has been said about me is, oh, he's doing this because he was a plant in the agency or he was just a disgruntled employee.
我知道人们对我的评价之一是，哦，他这样做是因为他是该机构的一名工厂，或者他只是一名心怀不满的员工。
I'm not.
我不是。
I chose the path I took with clear eyes, despite the personal cost to me when I chose it.
我以清醒的眼光选择了自己所走的道路，尽管我在选择这条道路时付出了个人代价。
And that was a price I was willing to pay.
这是我愿意付出的代价。
That was--
那是——
Why?
为什么？
Ryan Schwank --the thing I was willing to do.
Ryan Schwank——我愿意做的事情。
Because I genuinely viewed it as the right thing to do.
因为我真诚地认为这是正确的事情。
I cannot emphasize this enough.
我怎么强调都不为过。
What's coming down the road from what I saw at that academy is a clear and direct threat to everyone in this country.
我在那所学院所看到的情况对这个国家的每个人来说都是明显而直接的威胁。
Those cadets have every intention of being good law enforcement officers, but they are being set up to fail.
这些学员一心想成为优秀的执法人员，但他们注定会失败。
They are being set up to be a danger to the rest of us.
他们被设置为对我们其他人构成危险。
I cannot emphasize enough not only the loss of use-of-force training and the firearms training but how critically dangerous it is that we have stripped away the training on the Constitution.
我不仅要强调使用武力训练和火器训练的丧失，还要强调我们取消宪法培训是多么危险。
The law is slow.
法律是缓慢的。
The courts are a tool for correcting things down the road.
法院是纠正问题的工具。
The thing that keeps you safe, that keeps me safe, is those police officers buying into that myth of the avatar of justice.
让你安全、让我安全的，是那些相信正义化身神话的警察。
And look, I'm not saying this as some naive Boy Scout.
听着，我并不是以一个天真的童子军的身份这么说的。
I know exactly how our law enforcement operated in the '60s and '70s.
我清楚地知道我们的执法部门在 60 年代和 70 年代是如何运作的。
I know exactly how it operates today.
我清楚地知道它今天是如何运作的。
I'm not saying this because I believe that they're all great, wonderful people.
我这么说并不是因为我相信他们都是很棒的人。
They're human beings with the whole range of character traits and flaws that human beings have.
他们是具有人类所具有的全部性格特征和缺陷的人。
But that idea that they are holding up a standard is so much more powerful than we realize because it's the thing that convinces them to be lawful.
但他们坚持标准的想法比我们意识到的要强大得多，因为这是让他们相信合法的东西。
That Jiminy Cricket voice in the back of their heads that says, hey, this isn't what an American police officer does, it's the thing that is in their head at that moment that they act.
他们脑后的那个吉米尼·蟋蟀的声音说，嘿，这不是美国警察所做的事情，这是他们行动那一刻脑子里想到的事情。
In lots of ways, Ryan's unusual, but in one important way, he's not.
在很多方面，瑞安都是不同寻常的，但在一个重要的方面，他却并非如此。
He sounds just as alarmed about ICE as other people inside the government I've talked to.
他听起来和我交谈过的政府内部其他人一样对 ICE 感到震惊。
The Department of Homeland Security plans to train about 3,000 new ICE officers at the academy this year.
美国国土安全部计划今年在该学院培训约 3,000 名新 ICE 官员。
Nadia Reiman is a producer on our show.
纳迪亚·雷曼 (Nadia Reiman) 是我们节目的制片人。
Her story was edited by Laura Starecheski.
她的故事由劳拉·斯塔莱切斯基 (Laura Starecheski) 编辑。
Coming up, a judge issues some court orders, tells the government to release a bunch of people from detention.
接下来，法官发布了一些法庭命令，告诉政府释放一群被拘留的人。
The government doesn't do it.
政府不这样做。
The judge calls them in to ask why not.
法官叫他们进来询问为什么不这样做。
And what the lawyer says was not what he or anybody expected.
律师所说的并不是他或任何人所期望的。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
OK.
好的。
So we've named our program today after the song that Jiminy Cricket sings to Pinocchio, "Give A Little Whistle." You know that one?
因此，我们今天以吉米尼·蟋蟀为匹诺曹唱的歌曲“给一点口哨”命名了我们今天的节目。你知道那个吗？
When you get in trouble and you don't know right from wrong, give a little whistle.
当你遇到麻烦，分不清是非时，吹一声口哨。
[WHISTLES] We have two stories today where lawyers from inside the government give us rare and factual accounts of what is really happening inside ICE with fascinating details of a broken, chaotic kind of mess.
[口哨] 今天我们有两个故事，来自政府内部的律师为我们提供了罕见而真实的描述，讲述了 ICE 内部到底发生了什么，并提供了破碎、混乱的令人着迷的细节。
We have arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act Two, Don't Trust the Process.
第二幕，不要相信过程。
So this next glimpse inside the world of ICE comes from a transcript of a court hearing that happened last month.
因此，ICE 世界的下一个一瞥来自上个月举行的法庭听证会的笔录。
In it, this government attorney got increasingly kind of beaten down by the facts, and by the end, really opened up about what it's like to do her job right now.
在书中，这位政府律师越来越被事实击垮，到最后，她真正敞开心扉，讲述了她现在的工作是什么样的。
You do not hear government lawyers talking in court the way she did in this hearing.
你不会听到政府律师像她在这次听证会上那样在法庭上讲话。
She's very candid, very unguarded, very personal.
她非常坦率，非常不设防，非常有个性。
The reason for the hearing in the first place was kind of notable.
首先举行听证会的原因很值得注意。
Basically, there's been an explosion of what are called habeas petitions in immigration cases.
基本上，移民案件中所谓的人身保护令呈爆炸式增长。
A habeas petition is saying to the government show why this person is being detained.
一份人身保护请愿书要求政府说明此人被拘留的原因。
Otherwise, you have to let them go.
否则，你就得放他们走。
This is a bedrock legal principle that's been around since the Middle Ages to keep people from being locked up without any reason.
这是自中世纪以来就存在的一项基本法律原则，旨在防止人们无故被监禁。
It's in the first article of the US Constitution.
这是美国宪法第一条。
ProPublica has been tracking the numbers in immigration cases.
ProPublica 一直在追踪移民案件的数量。
Before President Trump came back into office, there were, like, 20 or 30 immigration habeas petitions being filed every week.
在特朗普总统重新就职之前，每周大约会收到 20 到 30 份移民人身保护令申请。
In February, it was over 2,000 every week, which has completely overwhelmed the federal courts.
2月份的时候，每周都超过2000件，这已经彻底压垮了联邦法院。
So the judge in this case had ruled in a bunch of these habeas cases, these people have been illegally detained.
所以这个案子的法官在一堆这样的人身保护案件中裁定，这些人都被非法拘留了。
You've got to release them immediately.
你必须立即释放他们。
And then it didn't happen.
然后它就没有发生。
David Kestenbaum has our story.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆讲述了我们的故事。
This all happened 1 o'clock on a Tuesday afternoon at a federal courtroom in Saint Paul, Minnesota.
这一切都发生在周二下午 1 点，地点是明尼苏达州圣保罗的联邦法庭。
There are just a handful of people there.
那里只有少数人。
The judge, Judge Jerry Blackwell, ordered the hearing because he was trying to figure out what on Earth was going on with the government's lawyers.
法官杰里·布莱克威尔下令举行听证会，因为他试图弄清楚政府律师到底发生了什么。
We got an actor to read the transcript here for you.
我们请了一位演员为您朗读文字记录。
It's been lightly edited, but just for clarity and length.
它经过轻微编辑，但只是为了清晰和长度。
Judge Blackwell-- good afternoon.
布莱克威尔法官——下午好。
You may be seated.
您可能已入座。
The hearing this afternoon concerns compliance with court orders-- not policy, just compliance, nothing else.
今天下午的听证会涉及对法院命令的遵守情况——不是政策，只是遵守，没有别的。
I've had so many issues with noncompliance in just this past week that I called for this hearing.
就在上周，我遇到了很多违规问题，因此我呼吁召开这次听证会。
The judge's issue is with five different immigration cases.
法官的问题涉及五个不同的移民案件。
The court had ruled that the people the government had detained had to be released because the government had no reason to hold them.
法院裁定政府拘留的人必须被释放，因为政府没有理由拘留他们。
But then the government was not releasing them or even giving updates.
但随后政府没有发布它们，甚至没有提供更新。
Hence, this hearing.
于是，就有了这次听证会。
And you know how in some TV shows or movies, there's this moment where someone will give this kind of speech?
你知道在一些电视节目或电影中，有人会发表这样的演讲吗？
And it's good, but you're like, people don't actually do that in real life.
这很好，但你会想，人们在现实生活中实际上并没有这样做。
Well, sometimes they do.
嗯，有时他们会这样做。
It's like Judge Blackwell knew exactly what he wanted to say, and it all came out.
就好像布莱克威尔法官清楚地知道他想说什么，然后就全部说出来了。
As I hope everybody here agrees and acknowledges-- that a court order is not advisory and it is not conditional.
我希望这里的每个人都同意并承认，法院命令不是建议性的，也不是有条件的。
It is not something that any agency can treat as optional.
这不是任何机构都可以视为可选的事情。
The authority exercised by the court is derived from Article III of the Constitution.
法院行使的权力源自宪法第三条。
That authority under Article III only has meaning if the court orders are obeyed, adhered to promptly, fully, and in good faith.
第三条规定的权力只有在法院命令得到迅速、充分和善意地遵守、遵守的情况下才有意义。
The whole judicial system kind of depends on the executive branch doing what the courts say, more or less voluntarily.
整个司法系统某种程度上依赖于行政部门按照法院的规定行事，或多或少是自愿的。
He doesn't have a great way to force them to do it.
他没有什么好办法强迫他们这么做。
The judge says, if you don't comply with the court's orders, you've essentially painted the court into a corner.
法官说，如果你不遵守法庭的命令，你基本上就把法庭逼到了墙角。
Because what are we supposed to do?
因为我们应该做什么？
Detention without lawful authority is not just a technical defect.
未经合法授权的拘留不仅仅是技术缺陷。
It is a constitutional injury that unfairly falls on the heads of those who have done nothing wrong to justify it.
这是一种宪法伤害，不公平地落在那些没有做错任何事来证明其合理性的人的头上。
The overwhelming majority of the hundreds seen by this court have been found to be lawfully present as of now in the country.
该法庭所见的数百人中的绝大多数目前已被认定为合法居留在该国。
They live in their communities.
他们生活在自己的社区中。
Some are separated from their families.
有些人与家人失散。
When a release order is not followed, the result is not just a delay.
如果不遵守发布命令，结果不仅仅是延迟。
In some instances, it is the continued detention of a person the Constitution does not permit the government to hold and who should have been left alone-- that is, not arrested in the first place.
在某些情况下，这是对宪法不允许政府拘留的人进行持续拘留，而该人本应不受干扰，也就是说，一开始就不应逮捕。
I can't tell how long, time wise, this goes on for, because we just have the transcript.
我不知道这种情况会持续多久，因为我们只有文字记录。
But it's, like, five pages.
但这大概有五页。
He says the court has been having a hard time even getting information about when these people would be released.
他说，法院甚至很难获得有关这些人何时被释放的信息。
In many instances, I have had to not just issue an order but another order, another order.
在很多情况下，我不仅要发出一个命令，还要发出另一个命令，另一个命令。
Another order, about seven or eight different touches sent to the government, simply asking for the date, time, and location of the release of someone who was ordered released, in many instances, a week or more in the past.
另一份命令向政府发送了大约七八种不同内容，只是询问被命令释放的人的释放日期、时间和地点，在许多情况下，是在一周或更长时间之前。
And why is that so difficult?
为什么这么难？
I cannot understand.
我无法理解。
Because there's obviously a person associated with the government who is going to the detainee to release him or her.
因为显然有一个与政府有关的人要去被拘留者释放他或她。
You have their name.
你有他们的名字。
You can carry with you a form.
您可以随身携带表格。
The name is on it.
名字就在上面。
Just write the time on it and send it to the DOJ.
只需在上面写下时间并将其发送给司法部即可。
Judge Blackwell says to the government lawyers, there's no excuse to say that you don't have the staff to deal with this huge influx of habeas cases, because it was the government that decided to do all these immigration raids with apparently no plan for how to deal with them in the court system.
布莱克威尔法官对政府律师说，没有理由说你们没有足够的工作人员来处理大量涌入的人身保护令案件，因为是政府决定进行所有这些移民突击搜查，但显然没有计划如何在法院系统中处理这些案件。
So I'm going to stop there just by way of background and follow up on the responses I received from Ms. Le and from Ms. Voss.
因此，我将仅介绍一下背景，并跟进我从 Le 女士和 Voss 女士那里收到的答复。
And if you want to come up to the podium, Ms. Le
如果你想登上讲台，乐女士
Ms. Le is Julie Le, an attorney for ICE.
Le女士是Julie Le，ICE的律师。
Judge Blackwell-- you have approached already.
布莱克威尔法官——你已经走近了。
She presents some documents to the judge and starts talking.
她向法官出示了一些文件并开始交谈。
Ms. Le-- just to have some background, I was put on this special mission to help with the US Attorney Office with all the habeas claims that they have received.
乐女士——只是为了了解一些背景，我被派去执行这项特殊任务，帮助美国检察官办公室处理他们收到的所有人身保护令索赔。
They are overwhelmed, and they need help, so I-- I have to say, stupidly enough to volunteer.
他们不知所措，他们需要帮助，所以我——我不得不说，愚蠢到自愿去做志愿者。
So in January 5, when I started with the agency, I have to be honest, we have no guidance or direction on what we need to do.
因此，在 1 月 5 日，当我开始与该机构合作时，我必须说实话，对于我们需要做什么，我们没有任何指导或方向。
And so when you showed up, they just throw you in the well and then here we go.
所以当你出现时，他们就把你扔进井里，然后我们就开始了。
She explains that it's been kind of a mess.
她解释说，事情有点乱。
Like, she has two different government email accounts now but could only access one.
比如，她现在有两个不同的政府电子邮件帐户，但只能访问一个。
Some of the court's orders were going to the other email that she couldn't access.
法院的一些命令将发送到她无法访问的另一封电子邮件中。
She's spending hours and hours just not even doing the job, just trying to figure out how to do the job.
她花了很多时间，甚至没有做这项工作，只是想弄清楚如何完成这项工作。
Judge Blackwell-- so are you telling the court that you were brought in brand new, a shiny, brand-new penny into this role, and you received no proper orientation or training on what you were supposed to do?
布莱克威尔法官——那么你是在告诉法庭，你是被任命为这个角色的全新的、闪亮的、全新的一分钱，而你没有接受过关于你应该做什么的适当的指导或培训吗？
Ms. Le-- I have to say yes to that question, Your Honor.
乐女士——法官大人，我必须对这个问题说“是”。
Judge Blackwell-- I'd like to hear about the Oscar case, Oscar 26-167.
布莱克威尔法官——我想听听奥斯卡案，奥斯卡 26-167。
The Oscar case is the main one discussed in the transcript.
奥斯卡案是文字记录中讨论的主要案件。
The details of it are particularly troubling to the judge.
其中的细节尤其让法官感到不安。
Oscar was apprehended on January 10 in Minneapolis, where he lives.
奥斯卡于 1 月 10 日在他居住的明尼阿波利斯被捕。
Five days later, on the 15th, the court ordered him to be immediately released.
五天后，即15日，法院下令立即释放他。
But by then-- this is very common-- Oscar been flown all the way from Minnesota to a detention facility in Texas.
但到那时——这很常见——奥斯卡从明尼苏达州一路飞到德克萨斯州的一个拘留所。
The judge, when ordering his immediate release on the 15th, required an update to be filed within 48 hours.
法官15日下令立即释放他时，要求他在48小时内提交更新情况。
Judge Blackwell-- there was no 48-hour update that was filed on the 17th.
Blackwell 法官——17 日没有提交 48 小时更新信息。
That hadn't happened.
那并没有发生。
And so then the court is saying that I wanted a letter no later than 3:00 PM on the 19th showing cause why you shouldn't be held in contempt for violating the court's order.
因此，法院表示，我希望在 19 日下午 3:00 之前收到一封信，说明为什么您不应因违反法院命令而被视为藐视法庭。
Then on the 19th, I'm told the petitioner was scheduled for return to Minnesota on a flight from El Paso on Tuesday, January 20, and that he would be released upon his return.
然后在 19 日，我被告知请愿者计划于 1 月 20 日星期二从埃尔帕索乘飞机返回明尼苏达州，返回后他将被释放。
That was on the 19th of January.
那是1月19日。
Then we learned that on the 20th, when the release was supposed to have taken place, there was no release.
后来我们得知，20号本来应该发布的时候却没有发布。
Instead, we're told that counsel for ICE had represented to petitioner's counsel that the petitioner was currently on his route stop in Albuquerque, New Mexico, not El Paso, Texas, and is scheduled to arrive in Saint Paul on Saturday the 24th.
相反，我们被告知，ICE 律师向请愿人的律师表示，请愿人目前在新墨西哥州阿尔伯克基的途中停留，而不是德克萨斯州埃尔帕索，并计划于 24 日星期六抵达圣保罗。
And this is already then nine days after this person has been ordered released and found to have been unlawfully detained in the first place.
而此时距该人被勒令释放并被认定为非法拘禁已经九天了。
So nine days later, he's still in custody, now being flown around from El Paso to Albuquerque, New Mexico.
九天后，他仍然被拘留，目前正在从埃尔帕索飞往新墨西哥州阿尔伯克基。
At this point, a lawyer for Oscar, the man who is still somehow being held, filed a motion for contempt of court.
此时，仍以某种方式被关押的奥斯卡的律师提出了藐视法庭动议。
Judge Blackwell-- I ordered then Ms. Voss to file a written response
布莱克威尔法官——我当时命令沃斯女士提交书面答复
Ms. Voss is Ana Voss, a senior lawyer representing the federal government here.
沃斯女士是安娜·沃斯 (Ana Voss)，是代表联邦政府的高级律师。
She's in the courtroom, listening to all of this.
她在法庭上，听着这一切。
I'm sure she's had more than one day where she regrets how well I know her name, since most things end in, get a hold of Ms. Voss.
我确信她已经不止一天后悔我太了解她的名字了，因为大多数事情的结局都是“联系沃斯女士”。
Ms. Voss responded on the 22nd, explaining the timing of when she learned the facts.
沃斯女士于22日做出回应，解释了她得知事实的时间。
And let me pause there to make another point kind of clear enough.
让我暂停一下，让另一点足够清楚。
I wholeheartedly embrace the notion of a unitary executive, as in DHS, ICE, the DOJ, all a part of the executive branch.
我全心全意地接受统一行政机构的概念，就像国土安全部、移民和海关执法局、司法部一样，它们都是行政部门的一部分。
And if there's a problem in the restaurant, I don't intend to go in the kitchen to try to figure out who makes the bread.
如果餐厅出现问题，我不打算去厨房试图找出面包是谁做的。
And all of it is part of the executive branch.
所有这些都是行政部门的一部分。
And so it is not an excuse to tell me you contacted ICE because ICE is also part of the unitary executive for accountability purposes.
因此，告诉我您联系了 ICE 并不是借口，因为出于问责目的，ICE 也是统一执行机构的一部分。
After Ms. Voss's response, more days pass, with the man, Oscar, still in detention and the judge not getting updates.
沃斯女士做出回应后，又过了几天，这名男子奥斯卡仍被拘留，法官也没有收到最新消息。
Apparently, in some of the filings back and forth, the government had said that the delay in releasing this man, Oscar, had something to do with safety concerns.
显然，在一些来回的文件中，政府表示推迟释放奥斯卡这个人与安全问题有关。
The judge had asked, What were the safety concerns?
法官问，安全问题是什么？
Three times.
三次。
In court, after a while, he finally got an answer.
法庭上，过了好一会儿，他终于得到了答案。
Ms. Le-- the reason that I-- I did ask.
乐女士——我之所以——我确实问过这个问题。
And I was told if we provided all information, the protesters would show up at the airport and the agent and other people will be endangered.
有人告诉我，如果我们提供所有信息，抗议者就会出现在机场，而特工和其他人将面临危险。
So I took it to heart, because during that time, it was very heated here in Minnesota with all the protests that was going on.
所以我把它记在心里，因为在那段时间，明尼苏达州的抗议活动非常激烈。
Any public thing that was going on is at risk, even myself also at risk for putting my name and myself in here, Your Honor.
法官大人，正在发生的任何公共事件都面临着风险，甚至我自己也面临着将我的名字和我自己放在这里的风险。
That's the safety concern that I have.
这就是我所担心的安全问题。
Judge Blackwell-- is your answer because they were concerned that if he were put on a plane, that if he arrived here, there may have been a public reaction of some kind?
布莱克威尔法官——你的回答是因为他们担心如果他被送上飞机，如果他到达这里，可能会引起某种公众反应？
Ms. Le-- Your Honor, he was escorted with other agents.
乐女士——法官大人，他是和其他特工一起护送的。
He wasn't put on the plane by himself.
他不是自己被送上飞机的。
The original plan was to have agent escorted him back.
原本的计划是让特工护送他回去。
And with the protests was going on during that time, I was advised to be careful of what information to put out in public for the safety of others.
由于那段时间抗议活动正在进行，我被建议要小心公开发布的信息，以确保他人的安全。
Judge Blackwell-- and when the various persons are detained and then flown to El Paso or New Mexico, do you know that they are flown out of Minnesota sometimes within hours, if not the next day of being detained?
布莱克威尔法官——当不同的人被拘留然后飞往埃尔帕索或新墨西哥州时，您是否知道他们有时会在几小时内（如果不是被拘留的第二天）就从明尼苏达州飞出？
Ms. Le-- yes, I know that they are doing that.
乐女士——是的，我知道他们正在这样做。
Judge Blackwell-- and do you feel there's anything wrong with taking hours or days to fly them out of Minnesota when they've been--
布莱克威尔法官——当他们离开明尼苏达州时，你觉得花几个小时或几天的时间带他们离开明尼苏达州有什么问题吗——
Judge Blackwell-- just a minute.
布莱克威尔法官——请稍等。
Let me finish my question.
让我完成我的问题。
To fly them out of Minnesota and then take 13 days to return them when they've been found to have been unlawfully detained--
用飞机将他们带离明尼苏达州，然后在发现他们被非法拘留后，在 13 天之内将他们送回——
Ms. Le-- Your Honor, I did ask the same question too.
乐女士——法官大人，我也问过同样的问题。
I have not got the answer.
我还没有得到答案。
If there is a person who can answer that question or explain or defend the government's actions, it does not seem like they are in this courtroom.
如果有人能够回答这个问题或者解释或捍卫政府的行为，那么他们似乎不在这个法庭上。
Judge Blackwell and Julie Le, who is supposed to be representing the government, they agree this is a problem.
布莱克威尔法官和本应代表政府的朱莉·勒（Julie Le）一致认为这是一个问题。
The judge is saying, this looks bad from the outside.
法官说，这从外面看起来很糟糕。
And Julie Le is like, looks bad on the inside.
朱莉·勒就像是，外表看起来很糟糕。
And here, the whole thing kind of goes off the rails a bit.
在这里，整个事情有点偏离轨道。
Julie Le confesses to the judge that at one point, she put in her resignation, but the government couldn't find a replacement.
朱莉·勒向法官承认，她曾一度提出辞职，但政府找不到替代者。
She said she was just going to walk out, but then she got another person released, a kid, someone under 18.
她说她正要走出去，但随后她又释放了另一个人，一个孩子，一个 18 岁以下的人。
Ms. Le-- that kind of like a step, like a barrier, like, wait, Julie, stop.
乐女士——那就像一个台阶，就像一个障碍，就像，等等，朱莉，停下来。
You need to go back and get more people out.
你需要回去带更多人出去。
That's why I'm still here.
这就是我还在这里的原因。
Because if I walk out-- sometimes I wish you would just hold me in contempt, Your Honor, so that I can have a full 24 hours of sleep.
因为如果我走出去——有时我希望您能轻蔑地瞧瞧我，法官大人，这样我才能有一个完整的 24 小时睡眠。
I work days and night just because people still in there.
我日夜工作只是因为人们还在那里。
And, yes, procedure in place right now sucks.
是的，现在的程序很糟糕。
I'm trying to fix it.
我正在努力修复它。
As you can see, the email that I sent to you, it has been improving, a great improvement.
正如你所看到的，我发送给你的电子邮件一直在改进，一个很大的改进。
And last night, I had to stay up until 2:35 AM just to get these documents ready for you.
昨晚，我不得不熬夜到凌晨 2:35 才为您准备好这些文件。
I can't say it's a waste of my time, but I could have sent so many more emails and get so many more people ready to be released.
我不能说这是浪费我的时间，但我本可以发送更多的电子邮件，让更多的人准备好被释放。
And I am here with you, Your Honor.
法官大人，我和您在一起。
What do you want me to do?
你想让我做什么？
The system sucks.
系统很糟糕。
This job sucks.
这份工作很糟糕。
And I am trying every breath that I have so that I can get you what you need.
我正在尝试我的每一次呼吸，以便我能为你提供你所需要的东西。
The judge asks Le if she is expressing this frustration to other people at ICE or DOJ.
法官询问 Le 是否向 ICE 或 DOJ 的其他人表达了这种挫败感。
Yes, she says.
是的，她说。
I write emails in 24-point font, bold.
我用 24 号粗体字体写电子邮件。
I threaten that I will put their names on the court documents.
我威胁说我会把他们的名字写在法庭文件上。
Judge Blackwell tells Le he doesn't want to threaten her or anyone.
布莱克威尔法官告诉乐，他不想威胁她或任何人。
He just wants this fixed.
他只是想解决这个问题。
Judge Blackwell-- what we really want is simply compliance.
布莱克威尔法官——我们真正想要的只是服从。
Because on the other side of this is somebody who should not have been arrested in some instances in the first place, who is being held in jail or put in shackles for days, if not a week plus after they've been ordered released.
因为另一方面，有些人本来就不应该在某些情况下被逮捕，他们在被下令释放后被关进监狱或戴上镣铐好几天，甚至一周多。
That's my concern-- upholding the rule of law and the constitutional rights of all concerned.
这是我关心的问题——维护法治和所有相关人员的宪法权利。
I hear the concerns about all the energy that this is causing the DOJ to expend, but with respect, some of it is of your own making by not complying with orders.
我听到有人担心这会导致司法部耗费大量精力，但恕我直言，其中一些是你不遵守命令造成的。
Do you understand that?
你明白吗？
Ms. Le-- I do, and I share the same concern with you, Your Honor.
乐女士——是的，法官大人，我也有同样的担忧。
I am not white, as you can see.
正如你所看到的，我不是白人。
And my family's at risk as any other people that might get picked up too.
我的家人和其他可能被接走的人一样面临着危险。
So I share the same concern.
所以我也有同样的担忧。
Our email just never stops.
我们的电子邮件永远不会停止。
And as you can see, I would love to undo all of this stuff because no one wants to be in jail.
正如你所看到的，我很想撤销所有这些事情，因为没有人想进监狱。
And actually, honestly, being in jail a day to get-- catch up with sleep is not bad right now with all the hours I have to put into this job.
事实上，老实说，现在在监狱里呆一天来补觉也不错，因为我必须把所有的时间都投入到这份工作中。
Judge Blackwell-- Ms. Le, I appreciate your candor.
布莱克威尔法官——乐女士，我很欣赏你的坦诚。
That's basically where the transcript ends.
基本上，文字记录就到此结束了。
What to make of all this?
这一切该怎么办？
You could say this is a document about the chaos of this moment and how the legal process is not working.
你可以说这是一份关于此时此刻的混乱以及法律程序如何不起作用的文件。
The judge had to call this hearing, after all.
毕竟，法官必须召开这次听证会。
But he did call it, and we have the record of it.
但他确实打电话了，我们有记录。
And reading it, I kept thinking about Oscar.
读着它，我一直在思考奥斯卡。
Because while all this was unfolding, all those days Judge Blackwell and Julie Le were talking about and going back and forth about, those were all days in his life, days when, as the judge says, he should not have been detained in the first place.
因为当这一切正在展开时，布莱克威尔法官和朱莉·勒法官谈论并来来回回的那些日子，那些都是他生命中的日子，正如法官所说，他一开始就不应该被拘留。
What happened for Oscar?
奥斯卡怎么了？
At the end of the hearing, his attorney urges the judge to please read docket entry number 67, which actually answers all these questions.
听证会结束时，他的律师敦促法官阅读案卷第 67 条条目，该条目实际上回答了所有这些问题。
It's worth hearing.
值得一听。
So here.
所以在这里。
We've edited this for length and clarity.
为了篇幅和清晰度，我们对其进行了编辑。
Each paragraph is numbered.
每个段落都有编号。
That's the way things are written.
事情就是这样写的。
Declaration of O.
O 的声明
I, O, declare the following is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
我，O，声明据我所知和记忆，以下内容真实且准确。
1.
1.
My name is O.
我的名字是O。
I am a 20-year-old man from Guatemala.
我是一名来自危地马拉的 20 岁男子。
I have lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota, for about four years.
我在明尼苏达州明尼阿波利斯生活了大约四年。
I have pending asylum and Special Immigration Juvenile Status applications.
我有待处理的庇护和特殊移民青少年身份申请。
2.
2.
I am filing this declaration under my first initial rather than my full name due to fear of retaliation against my family or me for opposing the federal government.
由于担心我的家人或我因反对联邦政府而遭到报复，我以我的名字首字母而不是全名提交此声明。
My full name is known to plaintiff's counsel.
原告律师知道我的全名。
3.
3.
On Saturday, January 10, 2026, I went to work and then got lunch with my father and my cousin.
2026 年 1 月 10 日星期六，我去上班，然后和父亲和表弟一起吃午饭。
We drove back to my work together after that.
之后我们一起开车回去工作。
On the way back, a car passed me quickly, sped up, and stopped in the middle of the street.
回来的路上，一辆车飞快地从我身边驶过，加速，停在了路中央。
A few men got out of the car in front of us and ran towards us.
几个男人从我们前面的车上下来，朝我们跑过来。
I turned off the car.
我关掉了车。
The men told me if I didn't get out of the car, that they would force me out.
那些人告诉我，如果我不下车，他们就会把我赶出去。
I got out of the car.
我下了车。
They told me I was under arrest but didn't say why.
他们告诉我我被捕了，但没有说明原因。
They handcuffed me.
他们给我戴上手铐。
I left my keys and phone in the car.
我把钥匙和手机留在车里了。
I felt like I was being kidnapped.
我感觉自己被绑架了。
4.
4.
They took us to the same place, the Whipple building, where the immigration court is located.
他们带我们去了同一个地方，惠普尔大楼，移民法庭就在那里。
5.
5.
In the garage, ICE agents checked our belongings and IDs, and then they took us inside and put us in a cell where we waited to be processed.
在车库里，ICE 特工检查了我们的物品和身份证，然后他们把我们带进去，关在牢房里等待处理。
The cell was small but was already holding about 40 people.
牢房很小，但已经关押了大约40人。
We were there close to 20 hours in that cell.
我们在那个牢房里呆了将近 20 个小时。
It was really hot and dirty.
真的又热又脏。
There was food scattered on the floor.
地板上散落着食物。
The floor was sticky with mud, and everything stuck to your shoes.
地板上沾满了泥土，所有东西都粘在了你的鞋子上。
I was so tired.
我太累了。
There was one toilet, but there was no privacy.
有一个厕所，但没有隐私。
I worried about viruses and bacteria since there were so many of us in the cramped space.
我担心病毒和细菌，因为我们很多人都在狭窄的空间里。
We were only given food two times in that almost 20 hours, both times a sandwich, an apple, and a cookie.
在那将近 20 个小时里，我们只得到了两次食物，两次都是三明治、一个苹果和一块饼干。
I tried to sleep, but there was no space to sit down.
我想睡觉，但没有地方坐下。
When some people got up from the floor, I would sit down, but it was painful to be on the cement floor.
当有人从地板上站起来时，我会坐下来，但在水泥地上很痛苦。
6.
6.
On Sunday, January 11, after breakfast, an ICE officer came and got me.
1 月 11 日星期日，早餐后，一名 ICE 官员来抓我。
He took my fingerprints.
他采集了我的指纹。
I was finally allowed to make one call, one call, no time limit.
我终于被允许打一通电话，一通电话，没有时间限制。
I wanted to call my attorney, Kim Boche, but I didn't have her number.
我想给我的律师 Kim Boche 打电话，但我没有她的电话号码。
The ICE officer said I was being moved to Texas as soon as possible and I will face a judge in Texas.
ICE 官员说我将尽快被转移到德克萨斯州，我将在德克萨斯州接受法官的审判。
7.
7.
Around 11:00 AM on January 11, an officer gathered everyone in the cell, chained our hands and feet, and we were put in trucks.
1月11日上午11点左右，一名警察把牢房里的所有人都聚集起来，铐住我们的手脚，然后把我们放进卡车里。
ICE took us to the airport.
ICE送我们去机场。
There were around 120 detainees on the plane.
飞机上约有120名被拘留者。
8.
8.
I remained in chains the whole plane ride.
整个飞行过程中我都被锁链锁着。
I was very hungry.
我很饿。
No food or water were offered for a while.
有一段时间没有提供食物或水。
I was finally given a snack and water on the plane, about 12 hours since I had last eaten, and had to eat with handcuffs on.
飞机上终于给了我零食和水，距离我上次吃东西已经过去了大约 12 个小时，而且我不得不戴着手铐吃饭。
9.
9.
I arrived in El Paso, Texas, around 6:00 or 7:00 PM on January 11.
我于 1 月 11 日下午 6:00 或 7:00 左右抵达德克萨斯州埃尔帕索。
When I arrived at the El Paso, Texas, facility, I was given a small bag with two thin blankets, a towel, two T-shirts, and a pair of boxers.
当我到达德克萨斯州埃尔帕索的工厂时，我收到了一个小袋子，里面有两条薄毯子、一条毛巾、两件 T 恤和一条平角裤。
10.
10.
I was told by the security official at the prison that the place I was brought to in Texas was supposed to be temporary, but I spent 10 days there.
监狱的保安告诉我，我被带到德克萨斯州的地方本来是暂时的，但我在那里待了10天。
12.
12.
There were about 72 of us in the cell.
牢房里大约有 72 个人。
The cell was the size of a small gym, where they fit about 40 bunk beds.
牢房大小相当于一个小型健身房，里面可容纳大约 40 张双层床。
There were only two flip phones for all the detainees in this center to use.
该中心只有两部翻盖手机供所有在押人员使用。
Over the 10 days I was in El Paso, the officers probably brought the phones into the cell for our use two to three times for two hours each.
我在埃尔帕索的十天里，警察可能将电话带进牢房供我们使用两到三次，每次两小时。
We would get together and beg the officer to let us call our family or our attorneys.
我们会聚在一起恳求警官让我们给家人或律师打电话。
If we could get the phone, we could only use it for two minutes.
如果我们能拿到手机，我们只能使用它两分钟。
You had to be ready when it was your turn.
轮到你的时候你必须做好准备。
If you didn't have an attorney's number memorized, you couldn't call them.
如果您没有记住律师的电话号码，则无法致电他们。
There were signs everywhere in the detention facility offering us $3,000 each if we agreed to self-deport.
拘留所里到处都贴着标语，如果我们同意自我驱逐出境，每人将得到 3,000 美元的奖励。
The officers would frequently try to get people to sign forms agreeing to self-deport.
官员们经常试图让人们签署同意自我驱逐出境的表格。
15.
15.
After five or six days-- I'm not sure exactly-- I was finally allowed to make a two-minute phone call.
五六天后——我不太确定——我终于被允许打两分钟的电话。
I was able to obtain my lawyer's phone number from my dad, who I saw through the window in a different room.
我从我父亲那里得到了律师的电话号码，我透过窗户看到他在另一个房间。
I asked the security guard to ask the other security guard to get my lawyer's phone number from my dad.
我让保安让另一个保安从我爸爸那里要了我律师的电话号码。
I was finally able to talk to my attorney, Kim Boche, for one minute only.
我终于能够和我的律师 Kim Boche 交谈一分钟。
She said she was trying to arrange a call with me.
她说她正在尝试安排与我通话。
The security guard started yelling at me that my time was up, so I couldn't understand much.
保安开始对我大喊大叫，说我的时间到了，所以我不太明白。
I don't remember much of the phone call.
我不太记得电话里的内容了。
I was so nervous.
我很紧张。
16.
16.
On Saturday the 17th, I talked to my attorney, and she told me I was supposed to be released the next day or the day after that.
17 号星期六，我和我的律师谈过，她告诉我，我应该在第二天或后天被释放。
She told me a judge had ordered my release.
她告诉我法官已下令释放我。
I also received two letters and a list with phone numbers in the mail from one of my teachers.
我还收到了我的一位老师寄来的两封信和一份包含电话号码的清单。
She also sent snacks, clothes, and a notebook.
她还送了零食、衣服和笔记本。
But I wasn't allowed to have any of this, only the papers and letters.
但我不被允许拥有任何这些，只有文件和信件。
18.
18.
ICE did not tell me that my attorney had been trying to call me and contact me while I was in Texas.
ICE 没有告诉我，当我在德克萨斯州时，我的律师一直试图给我打电话并联系我。
They didn't tell me my attorney had retained another attorney to file a habeas petition on my behalf or that a court had granted it and ordered my release.
他们没有告诉我，我的律师已聘请另一名律师代表我提交人身保护令，也没有告诉我法院已批准并下令释放我。
They just kept holding me there and occasionally trying to get me to self-deport.
他们一直把我扣在那里，偶尔还试图让我自我驱逐出境。
19.
19.
I was in detention in El Paso, Texas, for about 10 days.
我在德克萨斯州埃尔帕索被拘留了大约十天。
On what I think was the 10th day, I was moved.
我认为是第十天，我很感动。
A transportation officer asked those of us in the cell if we had eaten.
一名交通官员问我们牢房里的人是否吃过东西。
And when some people said they hadn't, he told them to shut up.
当有些人说他们没有时，他让他们闭嘴。
20.
20.
I was moved to a detention center in Torrance, New Mexico.
我被转移到新墨西哥州托兰斯的一个拘留中心。
The bus ride to Torrance was scary.
去托兰斯的巴士之旅很可怕。
The bus swerved a lot because the driver was falling asleep.
由于司机睡着了，公共汽车急转弯了。
I thought we would die, for sure, and I wouldn't be able to do anything because I was chained.
我以为我们肯定会死，而且我什么也做不了，因为我被锁链锁住了。
After I arrived in Torrance, I had to wait for about 12 hours to be processed.
到达托兰斯后，我需要等待大约12个小时才能得到处理。
They took our temperature, blood pressure, weight, and height, and I think gave us some type of vaccine against measles.
他们测量了我们的体温、血压、体重和身高，我想他们给我们注射了某种麻疹疫苗。
Then I was moved to a room with about 50 other people.
然后我被转移到一个有大约 50 个人的房间。
The food there was awful.
那里的食物很糟糕。
It looked like dog food.
它看起来像狗粮。
I stayed at Torrance for six days.
我在托伦斯呆了六天。
22.
22.
In Torrance, I was able to message and video call with my family, lawyer, and friends.
在托兰斯，我可以与家人、律师和朋友发消息和视频通话。
I was only able to do this because teachers at my school had pooled money and put it in my account.
我之所以能做到这一点，是因为我学校的老师筹集了资金并存入我的账户。
You needed to pay to use the tablet.
您需要付费才能使用平板电脑。
On Sunday the 25th, after dinner, I was moved to a single cell.
25日星期日，晚饭后，我被转移到单人牢房。
It was small and cold.
它又小又冷。
I couldn't sleep because it was so cold and because the guard had the TV on all night.
我无法入睡，因为天气太冷了，而且警卫整晚都开着电视。
24.
24.
On Monday, January 26, I got breakfast around 4:30 AM.
1 月 26 日星期一，我在凌晨 4:30 左右吃早餐。
Around 10:00 AM, I was told we were going to Cibola jail.
上午 10:00 左右，我被告知我们要去西博拉监狱。
Nobody explained why.
没有人解释原因。
I was handcuffed and loaded into a car and taken to Cibola jail in New Mexico.
我被戴上手铐，装进汽车，带到新墨西哥州的西博拉监狱。
25.
25.
The Cibola jail was horrible.
西博拉监狱非常可怕。
It was cramped.
房间很狭窄。
I was chained up again.
我又被锁链拴住了。
The officers mocked me and called me their enemy.
军官们嘲笑我并称我为他们的敌人。
They laughed at me.
他们嘲笑我。
I wasn't given an explanation for why I was there.
没有人解释我为什么在那里。
26.
26.
Security guards then put me on a bus.
然后保安把我送上了公共汽车。
I think it was around January 27.
我记得那是1月27日左右。
I was handcuffed.
我被戴上手铐。
It was freezing cold in the bus because the driver had the AC on.
巴士里很冷，因为司机开着空调。
We had no jackets.
我们没有夹克。
The bus eventually took me back to El Paso in the early morning of Tuesday, January 27.
巴士最终于 1 月 27 日星期二清晨带我回到埃尔帕索。
27.
27.
I was put in a cold cell where I had to sleep on the bare cement floor.
我被关在寒冷的牢房里，不得不睡在光秃秃的水泥地板上。
One officer told me that I had no chance of returning to Minnesota and that the best thing for me is self-deportation.
一名警官告诉我，我没有机会返回明尼苏达州，对我来说最好的办法就是自我驱逐。
She told me that if I fought my case, I would spend two to three more months here in El Paso.
她告诉我，如果我为自己的案子辩护，我会在埃尔帕索再待两到三个月。
She offered me $2,600 to self-deport.
她愿意给我 2,600 美元让我自行驱逐出境。
I refused.
我拒绝了。
They didn't tell me the judge had already ordered my release and return to Minnesota.
他们没有告诉我法官已经下令释放我并返回明尼苏达州。
If I hadn't managed to talk to my attorney, who told me a while back that I was ordered released, I might have given up at this point and signed the self-deportation forms because the conditions were so unbearable.
如果我没有设法与我的律师交谈（他不久前告诉我我被勒令释放），我可能会放弃并签署自我驱逐表格，因为条件是如此难以忍受。
28.
28.
I was taken to a doctor to check my temperature and blood pressure.
我被带去看医生检查我的体温和血压。
I waited at the doctor's office until around 1:30 PM.
我在医生办公室等到下午1:30左右。
And then suddenly, an ICE officer came and shouted my name.
然后突然，一名 ICE 官员过来喊我的名字。
She told me I might be free, but don't get too excited.
她告诉我我可能有空，但别太兴奋。
They took me to the airport.
他们送我去机场。
29.
29.
We arrived at the airport too late and missed the plane.
我们到机场太晚了，错过了飞机。
30.
30.
When I was taken back to the detention center from the airport after missing the flight, I overheard an ICE officer saying in English, the judge in Minnesota wants this one back.
当我错过航班从机场被带回拘留中心时，我无意中听到一名 ICE 官员用英语说，明尼苏达州的法官想要拿回这个。
31.
31.
At around midnight, they took me to another police processing station, 10 to 15 minutes away.
午夜左右，他们把我带到另一个警察处理站，距离酒店有10到15分钟路程。
At 5:00 AM, they took us to the airport.
凌晨5:00，他们送我们去机场。
I was flown to Denver and then to Minneapolis.
我飞往丹佛，然后飞往明尼阿波利斯。
32.
32.
When I arrived in Minneapolis, I was handed off to ICE agents, handcuffed, and put in jail at the same place where it all started with the same dirty floors.
当我到达明尼阿波利斯时，我被交给 ICE 特工，戴上手铐，然后被关进监狱，就在这一切开始的地方，地板也很脏。
I asked for a phone call.
我要求打电话。
I called my attorney but got no answer.
我打电话给我的律师但没有得到答复。
I then called my teacher, and while I was speaking to her, I was told that I was being released.
然后我打电话给我的老师，当我和她说话时，我被告知我要被释放了。
My teacher came to pick me up.
我的老师来接我了。
I had to sign lots of papers saying that I wasn't going to be a part of any groups.
我必须签署很多文件，表明我不会加入任何团体。
I didn't know what they meant by groups.
我不知道他们说的团体是什么意思。
They never told me why I was detained.
他们从未告诉过我为什么被拘留。
35.
35.
Right now, I am happy that I have been released.
现在，我很高兴我被释放了。
I am grateful I have my family and an attorney.
我很感激我有我的家人和律师。
When I think of my time in detention, I think of so many ways I could have died there, the way my car was stopped in the middle of the road, the diseases I could have caught at the Whipple, the driver who was falling asleep at the wheel, driving us from El Paso to New Mexico.
当我想起我在拘留所的时光时，我想到了我可能死在那里的多种方式，我的车停在路中间的方式，我在惠普尔可能感染的疾病，开车时睡着的司机，开车送我们从埃尔帕索到新墨西哥州。
I declare, under penalty of perjury, that the foregoing is true and correct.
本人声明上述内容真实正确，如有伪证，愿受处罚。
In the end, Oscar was detained for 18 days.
最终，奥斯卡被拘留18天。
David Kestenbaum is the senior editor of our show.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆是我们节目的高级编辑。
Julie Le, the ICE attorney in the transcript, has since been reassigned.
笔录中的 ICE 律师朱莉·勒 (Julie Le) 此后已被调任。
The declaration of O was read by Marquis Rodriguez.
O的宣言由罗德里格斯侯爵宣读。
Rich Sommer read the court transcript.
里奇·索默宣读了法庭笔录。
We reached out to the Department of Justice for comment and got the following statement that reads in part, "If rogue judges followed the law in adjudicating cases and respected the government's obligation to properly prepare cases, there wouldn't be an overwhelming habeas caseload or concern over DHS following orders."
我们联系了司法部征求意见，得到了以下声明，其中部分内容是：“如果流氓法官在裁决案件时遵守法律并尊重政府妥善准备案件的义务，就不会有大量的人身保护令案件，也不会对国土安全部执行命令感到担忧。”
Well, our program was produced today by Lilly Sullivan and edited by Nancy Updike.
嗯，我们今天的节目由莉莉·沙利文制作，南希·厄普代克编辑。
The people who put together today's program include Phia Bennin, Dana Chivvis, Michal Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Cassie Howley, Seth Lind, Molly Marcello, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Ike Sriskandarajah, Christopher Swetala, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Phia Bennin、Dana Chivvis、Michal Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Cassie Howley、Seth Lind、Molly Marcello、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Anthony Roman、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Ike Sriskandarajah、Christopher Swetala 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Jeremy deVine and Suzanne Gaber.
今天特别感谢 Jeremy deVine 和 Suzanne Gaber。
Our website, where you can listen to our entire archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的 800 多集完整档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He was visiting the Castro recently, went to a bar filled with big, hairy guys, took one look around and said--
他最近参观了卡斯特罗，去了一家酒吧，里面挤满了毛茸茸的大家伙，环顾四周说——
Honey, I think I've kind of walked into a bear trap here.
亲爱的，我想我已经走进了捕熊陷阱。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。