881: I Want What I Want - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #881 | February 20, 2026 881: I Want What I Want Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 881 集 | 2026 年 2 月 20 日 881：我想要我想要的 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass There's a new film out that's in festivals called The Boys and the Bees, just won a prize at Sundance.
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 有一部新片正在电影节上映，名为《男孩与蜜蜂》，刚刚在圣丹斯电影节获奖。
It's about a real family with two sons.
这是关于一个有两个儿子的真实家庭的故事。
The dad's a beekeeper in Georgia.
父亲是佐治亚州的一名养蜂人。
And I talked to the filmmaker, Arielle Knight.
我和电影制片人阿里尔·奈特进行了交谈。
As she pointed out, the two boys are very different.
正如她指出的，这两个男孩非常不同。
Carver's six.
卡弗六岁。
Aaro's four.
阿罗四号。
Aaro is the youngest.
阿罗是最小的。
And he's kind of always bouncing around.
而且他总是跳来跳去。
He's comedic relief in the film.
他在电影中的喜剧效果。
And Carver is the oldest.
卡弗是最年长的。
And he's a lot more serious.
而且他的态度要严肃得多。
He's a lot more thoughtful.
他想得周到多了。
Carver's the one who reminds his little brother what the rules are.
卡弗是那个提醒他弟弟规则是什么的人。
Aaro just breezes past them.
阿罗轻而易举地从他们身边走过。
And the way all this plays out in this family of beekeepers?
这一切在这个养蜂人家庭中是如何发生的呢？
Aaro's been stung many, many times by bees, and Carver has never been stung.
阿罗被蜜蜂蜇了很多很多次，而卡佛却从未被蜇过。
And how do you explain that?
你如何解释这一点？
Arielle Knight [LAUGHS] I mean, Carver is probably always paying attention, taking his time, moving slowly--
阿莉尔·奈特（笑）我的意思是，卡弗可能总是在集中注意力，慢慢来，缓慢地移动——
Rules follower.
规则追随者。
Arielle Knight Exactly.
阿莉尔·奈特 没错。
And Aaro just sort of puts on his suit too fast, and there's a bee in there, or he steps somewhere where he shouldn't, or he's just-- you know.
阿罗穿衣服的速度太快了，里面有一只蜜蜂，或者他走到了不该踏到的地方，或者他只是——你知道的。
They have parents who have made a very deliberate choice to spend a ton of time with their kids, birdwatching and fishing and going through the woods and lifting up rocks to see what's underneath them, explaining everything about nature.
他们的父母经过深思熟虑，选择花大量时间陪伴孩子，观鸟、钓鱼、穿过树林、举起岩石看看下面有什么，解释有关自然的一切。
And there's a scene that Arielle captured on film of the boys with their dad, Nehemiah.
阿莉尔（Arielle）在男孩们和他们的父亲尼希米（Nehemiah）的电影中捕捉到了一个场景。
So we were wrapping up filming for the day.
就这样，我们结束了当天的拍摄。
And Nehemiah, usually in the evening, will check on the bees.
尼希米通常在晚上检查蜜蜂。
So he's checking on the bees.
所以他正在检查蜜蜂。
He's lifting the racks of beehives out of their boxes.
他正在把蜂箱架从箱子里拿出来。
And then he gets stung.
然后他被蜇了。
Ouch.
哎哟。
Ah, it got me.
啊，它抓住了我。
You boys back up, though.
不过，你们小伙子们回来吧。
You all don't have a suit on, and it just stung me.
你们都没有穿西装，这让我很刺痛。
So I don't want you to get stung.
所以我不想让你被蜇。
But what does it feel like?
但感觉如何呢？
It hurts so bad?
疼得这么厉害吗？
I mean, you can handle it.
我的意思是，你可以处理它。
Arielle Knight Carver creeps up to his dad and says something that I couldn't hear in the moment but that Nehemiah repeats.
阿莉尔·奈特·卡弗悄悄走到他父亲面前，说了一些我当时听不见的话，但尼希米又重复了一遍。
And he says--
他说——
You want to get stung?
你想被蜇吗？
Carver Yeah.
卡弗 是的。
Everybody in my family got stung except for me.
除了我之外，我家里的每个人都被蜇过。
I don't know if Mommy would want you to get intentionally stung.
我不知道妈妈是否愿意让你被故意蜇。
It kind of hurts, boy, it kind of hurts.
有点疼，孩子，有点疼。
I know that hurts.
我知道那很痛。
Ira Glass I know that hurts, Carver says.
“艾拉·格拉斯，我知道这很伤人，”卡弗说。
I can get the bee and put it on you, and it can sting you.
我可以把蜜蜂弄到你身上，它就会蜇你。
OK.
好的。
Can we just talk about that choice that he's making there?
我们可以谈谈他在那里所做的选择吗？
So Nehemiah has said multiple times that, growing up, he'd always wished that the adults around him had been more curious about the things that he was curious about, the kinds of adventures that he was interested in getting into as a kid.
因此，尼希米多次说过，在成长过程中，他一直希望周围的成年人对他好奇的事情、他小时候感兴趣的冒险活动更加好奇。
And he also seems very awake to these little teachable moments.
他似乎也对这些小小的受教时刻非常清醒。
He's a total teacher.
他是一位全能老师。
And he's always kind of trying to find the edge in helping his kids navigate things that are scary to them or that they never tried before that they're curious about.
他总是试图找到优势，帮助他的孩子应对那些让他们害怕的事情，或者他们以前从未尝试过但他们好奇的事情。
I can get the bee and put it on you, and it can sting you.
我可以把蜜蜂弄到你身上，它就会蜇你。
All right.
好的。
Well, let's do it.
好吧，让我们开始吧。
Mommy got stung.
妈妈被蛰了。
I got stung.
我被蜇了。
Daddy got stung.
爸爸被蛰了。
You haven't got stung.
你没有被蜇到。
Then Carver goes to his dad.
然后卡弗去找他父亲。
Carver I just don't want to get stung in my face.
卡弗：我只是不想被蜇到我的脸。
Yeah.
是的。
Me either.
我也是。
That's the worst.
那是最糟糕的。
We'll let you get stung right here.
我们会让你在这里被蜇。
So Nehemiah is pointing to Carver's forearm.
所以尼希米指着卡弗的前臂。
I'm telling you right now, son-- look at Daddy.
我现在就告诉你，儿子——看看爸爸。
It's going to hurt.
会很痛。
OK.
好的。
Nehemiah OK?
尼希米好吗？
You sure you want to do it?
你确定要这样做吗？
Carver is starting to look a little bit concerned right now.
卡弗现在开始显得有点担心。
And he gives his dad a really weak high five.
他给了他爸爸一个非常弱的高五分。
Uh-uh, Black man dab.
呃呃，黑人。
Yeah, there we go.
是的，我们开始吧。
I like it.
我喜欢它。
All right.
好的。
Let's do it.
我们开始做吧。
Which lucky girl are we going to choose for my son?
我们要为我的儿子选择哪个幸运的女孩？
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
So Carver's kind of touching his arm where he's about to get stung.
所以卡弗摸了摸自己即将被蜇的手臂。
His dad goes off to get a bee.
他爸爸出去捉蜜蜂了。
You ready?
你准备好了吗？
Tell me when you're ready.
当你准备好时告诉我。
When you lift your arm up, then you'll be ready.
当你举起手臂时，你就准备好了。
So Nehemiah is holding a bee by its wings with the stinger pointed out.
尼希米抓着一只蜜蜂的翅膀，毒刺指向外面。
And then Carver has his arm kind of down, and his other hand is kind of, like, shielding it from his dad and the bee.
然后卡弗把他的手臂放下来，而他的另一只手就像是保护它免受他父亲和蜜蜂的伤害。
And he keeps kind of wincing and jerking his arm away in anticipation.
他不断地皱着眉头，并期待地抽开手臂。
You ready?
你准备好了吗？
Good job.
好工作。
All right.
好的。
It's all right.
没关系。
Three-- don't jump.
三——别跳。
Don't jump.
别跳。
Don't jump.
别跳。
And I'm going to get it out, OK?
我会把它拿出来，好吗？
I'm going to get it out.
我要把它拿出来。
You sure you want to, son?
你确定要这么做吗，儿子？
You're acting like you don't want to now.
你现在表现得好像你不想那样。
I know you're nervous.
我知道你很紧张。
Just a little bit.
只是一点点。
Nehemiah All right.
尼希米 好吧。
Three.
三。
Relax, relax.
放松，放松。
Son, you can't do that.
儿子，你不能这么做。
You just have to let it happen, OK?
你只需要让它发生，好吗？
Something.
某物。
Ira Glass It's so funny.
艾拉·格拉斯 太有趣了。
He puts the bee on him, and the bee just won't do it.
他把蜜蜂放在他身上，但蜜蜂就是不肯这么做。
Well, she doesn't want to sting you, eh?
好吧，她不想蜇你，是吗？
Well, she didn't want to get-- all right.
好吧，她不想——好吧。
Let me get another one.
让我再拿一份。
Dang, you just not a mean bee, huh?
该死，你不是一只卑鄙的蜜蜂，对吧？
You're just a nice, kind bee.
你只是一只善良、善良的蜜蜂。
You don't want anybody to get stung.
你不想让任何人被蜇。
That's the younger brother again, talking to the bee.
又是弟弟，正在和蜜蜂说话。
All right.
好的。
Here we go.
开始了。
Carver Let's see.
卡弗 让我们看看。
[SCREAMS] Nehemiah OK.
[尖叫]尼希米好吧。
OK, OK, let me see.
好吧，好吧，让我看看。
OK.
好的。
Oh.
哦。
See?
看？
Now let's get it out.
现在让我们把它拿出来。
Let's get it out.
让我们把它拿出来吧。
Now, see?
现在，看到了吗？
Oh.
哦。
[CRYING] Nehemiah Son, now you're making me feel bad.
[哭泣]尼希米儿子，现在你让我感觉很糟糕。
So Nehemiah kind of looks at me in this moment, and I can see that there's a little bit of doubt in his eyes.
所以尼希米此时看着我，我可以看到他的眼里有一点怀疑。
He's kind of looking at me like, oh, man, I don't know if I did the right thing here.
他看着我，好像在说，天啊，我不知道我在这里做的是否正确。
But then you can see the moment he also snaps back into dad mode.
但随后你可以看到他也恢复了爸爸模式的那一刻。
All right.
好的。
Now wipe your tears off.
现在擦干你的眼泪。
Wipe your tears.
擦干眼泪。
Let me see it.
让我看看。
Let me see it.
让我看看。
Let me see it.
让我看看。
Let me see it.
让我看看。
Let me see it.
让我看看。
Where is it at?
它在哪里？
Where was it?
它在哪里？
[CRYING] Nehemiah OK.
[哭泣]尼希米好吧。
I got it out.
我把它拿出来了。
OK.
好的。
Good, good.
好，好。
Good, good, good.
好，好，好。
Nehemiah is kneeling in front of Carver, and he's kind of examining the bee sting and wiping his tears away.
尼希米跪在卡弗面前，他正在检查蜜蜂的蜇伤，并擦干眼泪。
Beekeepers get stung, right?
养蜂人会被蜇伤，对吗？
You got your first one, my boy.
你得到了你的第一个，我的孩子。
High five?
高五？
Now let me see where it is.
现在让我看看它在哪里。
Now let me see.
现在让我看看。
[WHIMPERING] It hurts.
[呜咽]很痛。
Nehemiah I got it out, I promise.
尼希米 我保证，我已经把它说出来了。
You want to make sure?
你想确定一下吗？
Yeah, I got it out.
是的，我把它拿出来了。
Now--
现在——
[INAUDIBLE] Nehemiah Yeah, that hurts?
[听不清] Nehemiah 是啊，很痛吗？
Do you wish you didn't do it?
你希望你没有这样做吗？
[CRYING] I still feel a little proud of myself.
[哭泣]我仍然为自己感到有点自豪。
You feel proud of yourself?
你为自己感到骄傲吗？
Boy, I'm proud of you.
男孩，我为你感到骄傲。
Can I say, I just really love how Carver, after he gets stung, is just not totally sure that he's glad he did it?
我能说，我真的很喜欢卡弗在被蜇伤后，并不完全确定他是否庆幸自己这么做了？
And then he kind of, like, sits there, and it stews in his brain for a couple seconds.
然后他就坐在那里，这个想法在他的大脑中酝酿了几秒钟。
And then he decides I'm going to declare victory.
然后他决定我要宣布胜利。
You should feel proud of yourself for that.
你应该为此感到自豪。
I've never met any kid-- I've never met any kid that said, my whole family's been stung, and I haven't.
我从来没有见过任何孩子说，我全家都被蛰了，我也没有。
I want to get-- look at mine.
我想要——看看我的。
You see Daddy's right there?
你看到爸爸就在那里吗？
So the rest of the evening-- they go on to have dinner.
晚上剩下的时间——他们继续吃晚饭。
Carver keeps glancing down at his bee sting.
卡弗一直低头看着他的蜂刺。
Sometimes he gives it a little stroke.
有时他会轻轻抚摸它。
And it's kind of starting to swell up a bit at this point.
此时它开始有点膨胀了。
But he's kind of beaming at it.
但他对此很高兴。
He's a real beekeeper now.
他现在是一名真正的养蜂人了。
And like his dad said, beekeepers get stung.
正如他父亲所说，养蜂人会被蜇伤。
When you decide to do something that other people do not do, it makes you feel big.
当你决定做别人不做的事情时，你会感觉自己很伟大。
Today on our program, we have people choosing to do things that most of us-- not only will we not do these things, most of us actively avoid these things the way that we avoid bee stings.
今天，在我们的节目中，我们让人们选择做我们大多数人都做的事情——我们不仅不会做这些事情，而且我们大多数人都像避免被蜜蜂蜇伤一样积极地避免这些事情。
We have stories today of oysters, of love.
今天我们有关于牡蛎和爱情的故事。
We have a courtroom drama.
我们有一场法庭戏剧。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: Lessons in Shellfishness Ira Glass It's This American Life, "Act One, Lessons in Shellfishness."
第一幕：贝类的教训 Ira Glass 这就是美国生活，“第一幕，贝类的教训”。
So John Tothill has been thinking a lot about people who make personal life choices that are different from most.
因此，约翰·托希尔一直在思考那些做出与大多数人不同的个人生活选择的人。
He did a whole show inspired by a man like that, a show where he talks about that man and tells a personal story also.
他做了一个完整的节目，灵感来自于这样一个人，在这个节目中，他谈论了那个人，也讲述了一个个人故事。
Tothill's a comedian.
托希尔是一位喜剧演员。
He's a British comedian.
他是一位英国喜剧演员。
Quick note before he starts-- he refers to two things in this story that not everybody knows about here in the United States.
在开始之前先简单说明一下——他在这个故事中提到了两件事，在美国并不是每个人都知道。
He mentions the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.
他提到了爱丁堡边缘艺术节。
That's this big three-week-long performance festival in Europe where he happened to do this show.
那是欧洲一个为期三周的大型表演节，他碰巧在那里做了这场演出。
And he refers to Rustlers burgers, which Brits, I guess, know about.
他指的是 Rustlers 汉堡，我猜英国人都知道。
They are microwavable, budget-priced, ready-made frozen burgers on buns.
它们是可微波加热、价格实惠的现成冷冻汉堡包。
Here's John Tothill.
请听约翰·托希尔的报道。
Hello.
你好。
How are you all doing.
你们都好吗？
You all right?
你还好吗？
[CHEERING] It's so good to be here.
[欢呼]很高兴来到这里。
And of course, we've got to talk about Edward Dando, haven't we?
当然，我们必须谈谈爱德华·丹多，不是吗？
Do we know about Edward Dando?
我们知道爱德华·丹多吗？
Edward Dando, the celebrated 19th-century oyster glutton, Edward Dando?
爱德华·丹多 (Edward Dando)，19 世纪著名的牡蛎美食家，爱德华·丹多 (Edward Dando)？
How do I tell you about-- OK, right.
我该怎么告诉你——好吧，对了。
You know how on Wikipedia, if you look something up on Wikipedia, Wikipedia has to purport to be objective, but like, to a fault, you know?
你知道在维基百科上，如果你在维基百科上查找某些内容，维基百科必须声称是客观的，但就像，有一个错误，你知道吗？
Wikipedia will be like, oh, Adolf Hitler was an Austrian-born German politician.
维基百科会说，哦，阿道夫·希特勒是一位出生于奥地利的德国政治家。
And you think, yeah, get on with it.
然后你想，是的，继续吧。
Come on.
快点。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
But if you look up Edward Dando on Wikipedia, Wikipedia says, Edward Dando was a British thief.
但如果你在维基百科上查找爱德华·丹多，维基百科说，爱德华·丹多是一名英国小偷。
And it's like, OK, cancel my appointments for the afternoon.
就像，好吧，取消我下午的约会。
[LAUGHTER] So Edward Dando was a kind of minor celebrity in about the 1800s, completely forgotten about now.
[笑声] 所以爱德华·丹多（Edward Dando）在 1800 年代左右是一个小名人，现在完全被遗忘了。
But he was famous in his day for frequenting oyster restaurants, right?
但他在那个时代因经常光顾牡蛎餐馆而闻名，对吧？
This was like, at the height of Victorian London's obsession with oysters.
这就像维多利亚时代的伦敦对牡蛎的痴迷达到顶峰一样。
Oysters just came out of the Thames.
牡蛎刚刚从泰晤士河里出来。
Londoners couldn't get enough oysters.
伦敦人吃不到足够的牡蛎。
Edward Dando would go to these oyster restaurants, and he would order dozens of oysters at a time-- I mean, like, 200, 300 oysters at a time.
爱德华·丹多 (Edward Dando) 会去这些牡蛎餐馆，他会一次点几十个牡蛎——我的意思是，一次 200、300 个牡蛎。
And then he would draw a crowd, and he would performatively eat all of them, along with loaves of bread and kegs of ale.
然后他会吸引一大群人，他会表演性地吃掉所有的人，还有面包和啤酒桶。
And then when the bill arrived, Edward Dando would swear to God he thought it was free.
然后，当账单到达时，爱德华·丹多会对上帝发誓，他认为这是免费的。
He claimed in court not to know how restaurants worked.
他在法庭上声称不知道餐馆是如何运作的。
And in these magistrates courts, he would always insist on representing himself.
而在这些地方法庭上，他总是坚持自己代表自己。
And in his testimonies, he would always begin by saying, Your Worship, I was peckish.
在他的证词中，他总是首先说，尊敬的阁下，我很饿。
And I refuse to go hungry in a land of plenty.
我拒绝在物产丰富的土地上挨饿。
Of course, harsh 19th-century justice, he would be thrown into jail, often for months on end.
当然，根据 19 世纪严酷的司法，他会被投入监狱，通常会连续几个月。
When he was in jail, he was thrown into solitary confinement because he kept eating the rations of the other prisoners.
在监狱里，他因为一直吃其他囚犯的口粮而被单独监禁。
And then-- and this is the clincher-- Edward Dando, every single time, on the day of his release-- not the day after his release.
然后——这就是关键——爱德华·丹多，每一次，都是在他被释放的那天——而不是他被释放后的第二天。
On the day of his release, Edward Dando would walk from the prison gates to the nearest oyster restaurant, and he would do it again.
出狱那天，爱德华·丹多会从监狱大门步行到最近的牡蛎餐厅，他还会这样做。
[LAUGHTER] That is a man who is free.
[笑声] 那是一个自由的人。
That is a man who knows himself.
那是一个认识自己的人。
And I love the story of Edward Dando.
我喜欢爱德华·丹多的故事。
Because for me, the story of Edward Dando reminds us of how much there is to be gluttonous for in the world, you know?
因为对我来说，爱德华·丹多的故事提醒我们世界上有多少值得贪吃的东西，你知道吗？
I love living in the modern world.
我喜欢生活在现代世界。
I adore it.
我喜欢它。
I like the kind of modern food that other people pretend to hate.
我喜欢那种其他人假装讨厌的现代食物。
I eat things like Rustlers burgers.
我吃像 Rustlers 汉堡之类的东西。
Do you know why?
你知道为什么吗？
Because I love it.
因为我喜欢它。
Like, I really love it.
就像，我真的很喜欢它。
People go, what are you talking about?
人家走了，你还说什么？
What do you love?
你喜欢什么？
All of it.
所有这一切。
But do you know what I mean?
但你知道我的意思吗？
Like, drinking, I love it.
比如喝酒，我很喜欢。
But even, like, sitting.
但即使是坐着。
[LAUGHTER] Oh, I love it.
[笑声]哦，我喜欢它。
I really love it.
我真的很喜欢它。
The irony that I am a standup comedian--
讽刺的是我是一个单口喜剧演员——
[LAUGHTER] --it's the one hour of the day I'm not sat on my ass.
[笑声]——这是一天中我不坐在屁股上的一个小时。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I really, really love it.
我真的非常喜欢它。
I feel that very strongly.
我的感觉非常强烈。
It's interesting to me that greed and gluttony are separated in religious teaching.
对我来说有趣的是，在宗教教义中，贪婪和暴食是分开的。
I don't think that gluttony belongs on that list of seven deadly sins.
我不认为暴食属于七宗罪的名单。
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
I think greed does.
我认为贪婪确实如此。
But I think gluttony is different.
但我认为暴食是不同的。
I think that gluttony is something of a virtue, and I think it should be celebrated.
我认为暴食是一种美德，我认为应该庆祝它。
But they are different, aren't they?
但它们是不同的，不是吗？
We don't live in an age of gluttony, not really.
我们并不是生活在一个贪吃的时代，不是真的。
Gone are the days of Edward Dando.
爱德华·丹多的时代已经一去不复返了。
Gone are the days of the medieval feudal lord who throws feasts and bakes pies that are birds within birds within birds and that kind of thing.
中世纪封建领主举办盛宴、烤馅饼、鸟中鸟之类的日子已经一去不复返了。
It's over.
结束了。
Nowadays, the modern-day equivalent of a feudal lord is just anyone in a friendship group who owns a printer, you know, tragic.
如今，现代的封建领主只是一个友谊团体中拥有一台打印机的人，你知道，悲剧。
The stranglehold they have over the rest of us-- it's unbelievable.
他们对我们其他人的束缚令人难以置信。
But we don't live in an age of gluttony.
但我们并不生活在一个贪吃的时代。
We live in an age of appalling greed.
我们生活在一个贪得无厌的时代。
We live in an age of the kind of cruel, scheming, evil, greed.
我们生活在一个残酷、诡计、邪恶、贪婪的时代。
But it's the kind of greed which, up close, looks very moderate.
但这种贪婪，仔细一看，却显得非常温和。
Like, it's no surprise to me our modern-day Silicon Valley overlords-- they're not gangrenous Henry VIIIs, are they, at all?
就像，对我来说，我们现代的硅谷霸主并不奇怪——他们根本不是坏疽的亨利八世，不是吗？
They're gym bros, you know?
他们是健身房兄弟，你知道吗？
Mark Zuckerberg is a gym bro.
马克·扎克伯格是一位健身兄弟。
That guy, Bryan Johnson or whatever, he's a gym bro.
那个家伙，布莱恩·约翰逊或者其他什么人，他是一个健身房兄弟。
Jeff Bezos is a bit of a gym bro.
杰夫·贝索斯（Jeff Bezos）有点像健身兄弟。
They take their vitamins.
他们服用维生素。
They take their supplements.
他们服用补充剂。
They optimize their daily routine.
他们优化他们的日常生活。
They go to the gym.
他们去健身房。
They cut the small talk.
他们不再闲聊。
They want to expand their territories.
他们想要扩大自己的领土。
They want to live forever.
他们想要永远活着。
It's terribly egotistical, greedy behavior, whereas at least gluttony, it's not selfless.
这是一种非常自私、贪婪的行为，但至少是暴饮暴食，这并不是无私的。
But it's humble, isn't it?
但它很谦虚，不是吗？
Like, do you think Edward Dando liked going to prison?
比如，你认为爱德华·丹多喜欢进监狱吗？
Of course not.
当然不是。
But Edward Dando had the humility to say, I don't matter, my life doesn't matter as much as the celebration of these oysters, the celebration of life.
但爱德华·丹多谦虚地说，我不重要，我的生活并不重要，重要的是庆祝这些牡蛎，庆祝生命。
In a similar way, I promise you, my bank balance does not matter as much as the celebration of a Domino's pizza.
同样，我向你保证，我的银行余额并不像庆祝达美乐披萨那么重要。
Do you know what I mean, though?
不过你知道我的意思吗？
I'm trying to make the point that gluttony, it's over.
我试图表明，暴食已经结束了。
The greedy men have won.
贪婪的人赢了。
Oh, it drives me mad.
哦，这让我发疯。
It does.
确实如此。
Because I'm flying the gluttony flag out here.
因为我在这里飘扬着贪吃的旗帜。
I believe in gluttony.
我相信暴食。
And I took gluttony to a whole new level last year-- shocking.
去年我把暴食提升到了一个全新的水平——令人震惊。
So, OK, last year, to fund my Edinburgh Fringe run, I went on a clinical trial, right?
所以，好吧，去年，为了资助我的爱丁堡边缘艺术节，我进行了一项临床试验，对吗？
So I went on this trial, where they gave me malaria.
所以我参加了这个试验，他们给我带来了疟疾。
This is true.
这是真实的。
And--
还有——
[LAUGHTER] Never got a laugh before.
[笑声] 以前从来没有笑过。
No, but there's something for everyone on this show.
不，但是这个节目中每个人都能找到适合自己的东西。
No, seriously, I promise you.
不，说真的，我向你保证。
I went on this clinical trial.
我参加了这个临床试验。
They gave me malaria.
他们给我带来了疟疾。
And actually, it got a bit out of hand.
事实上，事情有点失控了。
It resulted in a sort of touch and-- it was a near-death experience, right, this thing.
它导致了一种触摸，并且——这是一种濒临死亡的体验，对吧，这件事。
I bring this up because I really felt like last year, after everything that happened, I felt like I really earned my time at the Edinburgh Fringe.
我提出这个问题是因为我真的感觉就像去年一样，在发生了这一切之后，我觉得我真的赢得了在爱丁堡边缘艺术节的时间。
I was hungry for life.
我对生活充满了渴望。
I wanted to do my show.
我想做我的表演。
I wanted to watch other people's shows.
我想看别人的节目。
I wanted to hang out.
我想出去玩。
I was having a great time.
我玩得很开心。
And in the spirit of triumph, on about day five of the Edinburgh Fringe, I thought to myself, what would Edward Dando do?
本着胜利的精神，大约在爱丁堡边缘艺术节的第五天，我心想，爱德华·丹多会做什么？
And I got myself the modern-day equivalent of oysters.
我给自己买了现代的牡蛎。
I got myself some cheesy chips.
我给自己买了一些奶酪薯条。
I love cheesy chips.
我喜欢芝士薯条。
And I ate these cheesy chips slightly too close to going to bed.
我在快要睡觉的时候吃了这些奶酪薯片。
And I woke up-- unsurprisingly, I woke up in the most extraordinary pain.
然后我就醒了——不出所料，我是在极度痛苦中醒来的。
It was this horrible, dreadful stomachache.
那是一种可怕的、可怕的胃痛。
It was like someone was lying on top of me, which they were.
就好像有人躺在我身上，确实如此。
Got them off.
把他们弄下来了。
And then--
然后——
[LAUGHTER] But it was awful-- stomachache, kind of nasty headache, a fever, it was.
[笑声]但这太可怕了——胃痛，有点剧烈的头痛，还发烧。
It was dreadful.
太可怕了。
I just remember lying there in bed and thinking, OK, I just need to get myself to the bathroom, and I will eventually pass these cheesy chips.
我只记得躺在床上想，好吧，我只需要去洗手间，我最终会通过这些俗气的薯片。
And I'm in a lot of pain.
我很痛苦。
And actually, I phone 111.
事实上，我拨打了111。
And they said, how bad is the pain?
他们说，疼痛有多严重？
And I said, it's pretty bad.
我说，这很糟糕。
It's not as bad as malaria, right?
它不像疟疾那么严重，对吧？
[LAUGHTER] They said, what an incredibly strange thing to say.
[笑声]他们说，这是多么奇怪的事情啊。
And they said, look, if it's manageable, the chances are you've probably got food poisoning.
他们说，看，如果可以控制，那么你很可能食物中毒。
I thought, fine, food poisoning.
我想，好吧，食物中毒。
I don't need to cancel any shows because of food poisoning.
我不需要因为食物中毒而取消任何演出。
I've had malaria.
我得过疟疾。
I've had a proper disease.
我得了一种适当的疾病。
I've been looking forward to the Edinburgh Fringe for months and months and months.
我几个月来一直期待着爱丁堡边缘艺术节。
I really want to do my show.
我真的很想表演我的节目。
I'm not going to cancel a show because of food poisoning, for God's sake.
看在上帝的份上，我不会因为食物中毒而取消演出。
So I went on stage.
于是我就上台了。
But over the next few days, as I was doing these performances, basically, my body started to shut down, basically.
但在接下来的几天里，当我进行这些表演时，我的身体基本上开始停止运转。
So I would sleep for hours.
所以我会睡几个小时。
I'd sleep for 18 hours or whatever.
我会睡18个小时或者其他什么。
And I'd wake up.
我会醒来。
I'd take all available pain relief.
我会采取所有可用的止痛药。
I'd go and do the show.
我会去表演。
Straight afterwards, I'd collapse, and I'd sleep for another, like, 18, 19, 20 hours.
紧接着，我就崩溃了，然后又睡了大概18、19、20个小时。
About five days into the illness, I remember phoning up my mom and saying, this is really bad now.
生病大约五天后，我记得打电话给我妈妈说，现在情况真的很糟糕。
This is the worst pain I've ever been in.
这是我经历过的最严重的痛苦。
She said, how bad is it, actually?
她说，实际上有多糟糕？
And I remember saying to my mom, I feel like I want to die.
我记得我对妈妈说，我感觉我想死。
I feel like I want to be dead.
我感觉我想死。
And she said, you said that two weeks ago when you lost your phone.
她说，两周前你丢了手机时你就这么说过。
And I did.
我做到了。
[LAUGHTER] So I'm not a reliable narrator of any of this next bit, OK?
[笑声] 所以我不是接下来的任何一个可靠的叙述者，好吗？
Take this with a pinch of salt.
加少许盐服用。
Now, I went to this pharmacy to get more laxatives, which is a five-minute walk away.
现在，我去这家药店买更多的泻药，距离酒店有五分钟的步行路程。
And I did that walk in 45 minutes.
我用了 45 分钟就完成了这段步行。
So I thought, OK, right, I'm going to have to go to the hospital.
所以我想，好吧，好吧，我得去医院了。
And hospitals are difficult environments, aren't they?
医院的环境很困难，不是吗？
Because, also, the hospital as an adult is a place where you have to kind of advocate for yourself, right?
因为，作为一个成年人，医院是一个你必须为自己辩护的地方，对吗？
Which basically means doing an impression of your own mom, you know?
这基本上意味着给你自己的妈妈留下一个印象，你知道吗？
[LAUGHTER] And that's adulthood, isn't it, sadly?
[笑声] 可悲的是，这就是成年，不是吗？
You go around as an adult, doing sort of impressions of your own parents, until eventually, it sticks.
作为一个成年人，你四处走动，做一些对你自己父母的印象，直到最终，它坚持下去。
The other day, I roasted a chicken.
前几天，我烤了一只鸡。
It was like a drag act or something.
这就像变装表演什么的。
[LAUGHTER] Fuck's going on here?
[笑声] 这他妈是怎么回事？
Am I in the opening number of a musical or something?
我是音乐剧的开场曲还是什么？
Bizarre.
奇怪的。
So I went into this A&E waiting room.
所以我走进了急症室候诊室。
And eventually, they said, right, the doctor will see you now.
最后，他们说，好吧，医生现在就来看你。
And this doctor, she took me into a curtained-off area.
这位医生，她带我到一个用窗帘隔开的区域。
And she said, look.
她说，看。
She said, I don't know what's wrong with you, but-- she said, the good news is, with things like abdominal pain, she said, you've actually left it a very long time to come in.
她说，我不知道你怎么了，但是——她说，好消息是，像腹痛这样的事情，她说，你实际上已经离开了很长时间才回来。
I'd left it seven or eight days, something like that.
我已经把它放了七八天了，类似的事情。
So she said, because you've left it so long, it's unlikely to be anything that serious.
所以她说，因为你已经离开这么久了，事情不太可能有那么严重。
With these abdominal things, if it's something like-- if it's appendicitis or if it's a perforated bowel or something like that, she said, you'd have been dead by now.
对于这些腹部的东西，如果是阑尾炎或肠穿孔或类似的东西，她说，你现在已经死了。
So she said, actually, the fact that you're still here means it's probably quite mild.
所以她说，事实上，你还在这里，这意味着情况可能相当温和。
It'll be an infection.
会传染的吧
We'll figure out what it is.
我们会弄清楚它是什么。
We'll give you some tablets, and you can go home.
我们会给你一些药片，然后你就可以回家了。
You can probably do your show tonight, if not tomorrow.
即使明天不行，你今晚也可以表演。
Great.
伟大的。
Fine.
美好的。
Took me for a load of scans, figure out what was going on.
带我进行了大量扫描，弄清楚发生了什么。
And she came back with quite a confused, quite grave look on her face.
她回来时脸上的表情相当困惑、相当严肃。
And she said, OK, you're not going to believe this, but it is appendicitis.
她说，好吧，你不会相信这一点，但这是阑尾炎。
And I said, oh, isn't that funny?
我说，哦，这不是很有趣吗？
And she said, no.
她说，不。
In her words, she said, your appendix has not just become infected.
用她的话来说，她说，你的阑尾不仅仅是被感染了。
She said it hasn't even just ruptured, which is the usual sort of worst-case scenario for appendicitis.
她说它甚至还没有破裂，这是阑尾炎通常最糟糕的情况。
She said, your appendix ruptured days ago and your appendix has now-- in her words-- obliterated.
她说，你的阑尾几天前就破裂了，用她的话来说，你的阑尾现在已经消失了。
She said, your appendix has completely fallen apart, and it is now floating around your body.
她说，你的阑尾已经完全散架了，现在漂浮在你的身体周围。
She said, you are in a state called intra-abdominal sepsis.
她说，你现在处于一种叫做腹内败血症的状态。
And she said, we need to operate on you in the next few hours or you're going to die.
她说，我们需要在接下来的几个小时内给你做手术，否则你就会死。
She said, so we need to get you to the theater right now.
她说，所以我们现在需要送你去剧院。
I said, that's what I've been trying to tell you.
我说，这就是我一直想告诉你的。
[LAUGHTER] Get me to the theater.
[笑声] 带我去剧院。
But look, I'm not going to pretend it wasn't scary, because obviously, it was scary.
但是听着，我不会假装这并不可怕，因为显然，这很可怕。
And because suddenly, it was a real-life emergency.
因为突然之间，这成为了现实生活中的紧急情况。
They put me in this hospital bed, and they bumped me up the urgent surgery list and stuff.
他们把我放在医院的病床上，把我列入紧急手术名单之类的。
And I woke up from the surgery.
我从手术中醒来。
And the surgeon said-- this is an exact quote.
外科医生说——这句话是准确的。
He said, "Yeah, when we opened you up, we were all a bit like, yikes."
他说：“是的，当我们打开你的身体时，我们都有点像，哎呀。”
Now, they don't know what causes appendicitis, and it's been suggested that excessively fatty diets might lead to appendicitis.
现在，他们不知道是什么原因导致阑尾炎，有人认为过多的脂肪饮食可能会导致阑尾炎。
I was essentially almost killed by my own gluttony.
我几乎被自己的暴食害死了。
And then he told me off, basically.
然后他基本上就斥责了我。
He got cross with me.
他对我很生气。
And he said, in my 25-year career as a general surgeon, he said, I've never seen someone come in that late with appendicitis because of this kind of dogged attitude I had to doing the show every day.
他说，在我 25 年的普通外科医生职业生涯中，我从来没有见过有人得阑尾炎这么晚才来，因为我每天都必须坚持这种顽强的态度。
And I didn't want to cancel it.
而且我不想取消它。
And he said that was dangerous, and it was stupid, and it was reckless, and it was immature.
他说那是危险的、愚蠢的、鲁莽的、不成熟的。
And he said, if you'd have left it one day more, you'd be dead.
他说，如果你再离开它一天，你就死定了。
You wouldn't be here.
你不会在这里。
And that'd be it.
就这样了。
And it's really, really hard to hear that and not think he's saying that I came in at exactly the right time.
听到这句话，我真的很难不认为他是在说我来的正是时候。
So you're saying-- yeah, so I was right not to cancel yesterday's show.
所以你是说——是的，所以我没有取消昨天的演出是对的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
My timing's immaculate.
我的时机完美无缺。
I was incredibly lucky.
我非常幸运。
I feel incredibly lucky to survive.
我觉得自己能活下来真是太幸运了。
Anyway, right, Edward Dando.
不管怎样，对吧，爱德华·丹多。
So Edward Dando died when he was my age.
所以爱德华·丹多在我这个年纪的时候就去世了。
Edward Dando died when he was 29 years old.
爱德华·丹多 (Edward Dando) 去世时年仅 29 岁。
He was also a man of timing, actually, because he died just as oysters were starting to become overfarmed, and they were falling out of fashion in London, and oyster restaurants were starting to close and go out of business.
事实上，他也是一个把握时机的人，因为他去世时，牡蛎开始过度养殖，牡蛎在伦敦不再流行，牡蛎餐馆开始关门歇业。
And it'd be really easy to think of the story of Edward Dando as the story of a man who never learned his lesson.
人们很容易将爱德华·丹多的故事视为一个从未吸取教训的人的故事。
But I don't think that's true.
但我不认为这是真的。
I think Edward Dando did learn his lesson.
我认为爱德华·丹多确实吸取了教训。
I think Edward Dando resolved, every single time, to continue doing the thing that he absolutely loved more than anything else.
我认为爱德华·丹多每次都决心继续做他最喜欢的事情。
And as I lay there in that hospital bed, anxious to come back to the Edinburgh Fringe, I thought of Edward Dando in solitary confinement.
当我躺在医院的病床上，渴望回到爱丁堡边缘区时，我想到了单独监禁的爱德华·丹多。
And I hope that every single time, he thought to himself, when I get out of here, do you know what I really fancy?
我希望每一次，当我离开这里时，他心里想，你知道我真正喜欢什么吗？
[LAUGHTER] And I hope that for him, every time, it was worth the wait.
[笑声]我希望对他来说，每一次的等待都是值得的。
Because I can promise you from the bottom of my heart, this certainly has been.
因为我可以从心底向你保证，这确实是。
I beg you, please, be an Edward Dando.
我求求你，成为爱德华·丹多。
Eat the cheesy chips.
吃芝士薯条。
Drink the champagne.
喝香槟。
Refuse to go hungry in a land of plenty, even if a thing like sepsis or prison gets in your way.
拒绝在物产丰富的土地上挨饿，即使脓毒症或监狱之类的事情阻碍了你。
[LAUGHTER] And for God's sake, let's go and get some oysters.
[笑声] 看在上帝的份上，我们去买点牡蛎吧。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
John Tothill.
约翰·托希尔.
I should say, the historical record is kind of sparse on Edward Dando.
我应该说，关于爱德华·丹多的历史记录有点稀疏。
So John took a few liberties to fill in the gaps.
因此约翰采取了一些自由行动来填补空白。
He got the gist right.
他的要点是正确的。
As to whether a fatty diet can cause appendicitis, like they say, more research is needed.
至于脂肪饮食是否会像他们所说的那样导致阑尾炎，还需要更多的研究。
John's show was directed by Alex Cartlidge and Catherine Craigmyle.
约翰的节目由亚历克斯·卡特利奇和凯瑟琳·克雷格米尔执导。
He's on tour right now across the UK.
他现在正在英国各地巡演。
You can find details on his Instagram, @johntothill.
您可以在他的 Instagram @johntothill 上找到详细信息。
Producer Aviva DeKornfeld from our show helped him adapt this story for our program.
我们节目的制片人阿维瓦·德科恩菲尔德 (Aviva DeKornfeld) 帮助他将这个故事改编成我们的节目。
Act Two: The Joy of Ex Ira Glass "Act Two, The Joy of Ex."
第二幕：前任的欢乐 艾拉·格拉斯 “第二幕，前任的欢乐”。
OK.
好的。
So sometimes, you break up with somebody, and you still talk.
所以有时候，你和某人分手了，但你仍然会说话。
You're friendly.
你很友善。
Some exes, you never speak with again.
有些前任，你再也不会说话了。
It's harsh, but everybody understands it when somebody's feelings are crushed.
这很残酷，但当某人的感情受到打击时，每个人都能理解。
It's not unusual.
这并不罕见。
What is unusual is somebody who wants to be in touch with all their exes-- I mean, all of them, even the ones who never want to see his face again, the ones who feel really hurt and disappointed.
不寻常的是一个人想要与他们所有的前任保持联系——我的意思是，所有的前任，甚至是那些永远不想再见到他的脸的人，那些感到真正受伤和失望的人。
Evan Roberts is a person who wants to reach out like that and become friends with the most hostile of his exes.
埃文·罗伯茨是一个想要像这样伸出援手并与他最敌对的前任成为朋友的人。
It's a weird mission that one of our producers, Tobin Low, was curious about.
这是一项奇怪的任务，我们的制作人托宾·洛 (Tobin Low) 对此感到好奇。
Evan made a list of 17 exes.
埃文列出了 17 名前任的名单。
By the time he and I met, he had talked with 16 of them over the last several years.
当我和他见面时，他在过去几年里已经与其中的 16 个人进行了交谈。
It was nice to catch up, get their side of the story.
很高兴能跟上，了解他们的故事。
But the more the thing had gone on, the more he realized this whole mission was actually just about ex number 17, someone he referred to as The Big Ex, a guy named Keith who, even when Evan reached out, did not want to talk.
但事情进行得越深入，他就越意识到整个任务实际上只是关于前 17 号，他称之为“大前男友”，一个名叫基思的人，即使埃文伸出手来，他也不想说话。
They'd broken up around New Year's.
他们在新年前后分手了。
It was 2010.
那是2010年。
A couple of weeks after--
几周后——
I was on my bike, and I was going through the little atrium of the apartment building and getting the mail.
我骑着自行车，穿过公寓楼的小中庭，去取邮件。
And I got this card from Keith.
我从基思那里得到了这张卡片。
And Keith repurposes cards and envelopes and puts stickers on them and stuff.
基思重新利用卡片和信封，并在上面贴上贴纸等。
So I opened it up at the mail-- like, I'm blocking the door.
所以我在邮件中打开了它——就像，我挡住了门。
I'm sure I opened it up at the mailbox.
我确信我在邮箱里打开了它。
And on the cover is a winter scene.
封面上是冬天的场景。
And there's some blue dotted stickers he has on it.
他上面有一些蓝色点状贴纸。
And where the sentiment of the card should have been was just a ripped-out hole.
而卡片本应表达情感的地方却只是一个撕破的洞。
Keith had torn out the part where there should have been "Merry Christmas" or "Happy holidays."
基思撕掉了本应写“圣诞快乐”或“节日快乐”的部分。
It was a void.
那是一片空白。
And I saw through the hole onto my shoe on the floor.
我透过这个洞看到了地板上我的鞋子。
On the opposite flap, Keith wrote a note about how he thought he and Evan should stay away from each other.
在另一页上，基思写了一张纸条，说明他认为他和埃文应该远离彼此。
I think most people receiving a holiday card with the heartfelt sentiment surgically removed would think, message received.
我想大多数收到节日贺卡的人都会想，收到的信息已经被外科手术去除了。
I will also cut you out of my life, ex-lover.
我也会把你从我的生活中剔除，前情人。
That would be my response, anyway.
无论如何，这就是我的回应。
I will be honest, the first time I heard about the fact that you had interviewed all of these exes, I was horrified by that.
老实说，当我第一次听说你采访了所有这些前任的事实时，我对此感到震惊。
I'm such a-- I don't talk to any of my exes, not out of ill will or anything.
我就是这样——我不和我的任何前任说话，不是出于恶意或任何其他原因。
But it's not a thing I've ever done.
但这不是我做过的事情。
Why don't you keep in touch with them?
你为什么不和他们保持联系呢？
Is it just done?
是刚做完吗？
It's like it's toast and you can't make toast bread?
就像吐司一样，你不会做吐司面包吗？
I feel like the relationship we had exists very much in the time that we were together.
我觉得我们在一起的时候我们之间的关系就已经存在了。
And so to revisit it to me feels like going to a past life.
因此，重温它对我来说就像回到了前世。
I don't know the value of that, I guess, for me, personally.
我想，就我个人而言，我不知道它的价值。
I would challenge you, I guess.
我想我会挑战你。
There are so many other ways that it could be, and this sort of dead version is like the least interesting.
可能还有很多其他的方式，而这种死气沉沉的版本就像是最无趣的。
And what I realized through some of these interviews is if there was love there once, it's kind of always there for me.
通过一些采访我意识到，如果曾经有过爱，它就会一直存在于我身边。
Just to say, Evan has been in a happy relationship with his boyfriend for over a decade.
只是说，埃文和他的男朋友十多年来一直保持着幸福的关系。
But ever since he and Keith broke up 16 years ago, he's wondered, why the card?
但自从 16 年前他和基思分手后，他就想知道，为什么要这张卡？
Why did Keith never want to talk to him again?
为什么基思再也不想和他说话了？
Why not be friends?
为什么不做朋友呢？
Had he missed something when they broke up, done something bad without realizing it?
难道他们分手的时候他错过了什么，做了什么坏事而不自知吗？
Evan and Keith met in their early 30s.
埃文和基思在 30 岁出头时相识。
They dated long distance.
他们远距离约会。
Evan lived in San Francisco, Keith in Austin.
埃文住在旧金山，基思住在奥斯汀。
Evan loved who he was with Keith, said he felt like himself at a higher octave.
埃文（Evan）喜欢他和基思（Keith）在一起的样子，说他感觉自己处于更高的八度。
Keith helped him apply to film school, which he'd always dreamed about.
基思帮助他申请了他一直梦想的电影学校。
Keith was outgoing, funny.
基思性格外向、风趣。
One time when Keith was visiting Evan, Evan came home to find him fake passed out on the living room with a message spelled out in matchsticks.
有一次，基思拜访埃文，埃文回到家，发现他假装昏倒在客厅里，手里还写着一条用火柴棍写的信息。
T-T-O-Y-M-M-H.
T-T-O-Y-M-M-H。
The Thought Of You Makes Me Hot.
一想到你就让我热血沸腾。
But long distance was hard on them.
但长途对他们来说很困难。
They broke up a couple of times, would always get back together.
他们分手过几次，总会复合的。
They were on one of those breaks when Keith moved to San Francisco, said, look, we could make a real go of this now.
当基思搬到旧金山时，他们正处于休息期间，他说，看，我们现在可以真正开始做这件事了。
Let's make this work.
让我们来完成这项工作。
Evan was surprised, taken aback.
艾文吃了一惊，吃了一惊。
And instead of jumping in feet first, he said, OK, but let's take our time, not rush things, which Keith did not take well.
他没有先跳起来，而是说，好吧，但我们慢慢来，不要着急，基思对此不太适应。
His face changed.
他的脸色变了。
Something about his whole body changed.
他的整个身体发生了某种变化。
And it did feel like a door closing.
确实感觉就像一扇门关上了。
And did that surprise you?
这让你感到惊讶吗？
Evan Roberts Only because I didn't know that what I said would have that impact.
埃文·罗伯茨：只是因为我不知道我所说的话会产生这种影响。
Keith broke up with Evan for good.
基思与埃文永远分手了。
Afterwards, Evan felt like he was walking around in a fog.
随后，埃文感觉自己就像是在迷雾中行走。
It felt like I was stuck on the wrong timeline.
感觉就像我被困在错误的时间线上。
I just felt in a different parallel universe that I wasn't supposed to be in.
我只是觉得自己身处一个不应该身处的平行宇宙。
Almost immediately, Keith got into a different very serious relationship, which has only further puzzled Evan.
基思几乎立刻就陷入了另一种非常认真的关系，这让埃文更加困惑。
They both moved on.
他们都继续前进。
Why not become friends now?
为什么现在不成为朋友呢？
But Evan's reached out a couple times over the years, and Keith has always been chilly.
但这些年来埃文曾多次伸出援手，而基思却一直表现得很冷漠。
It's vexed Evan so long, it's become a joke with his friends.
这让埃文烦恼了很久，甚至成为了他朋友们的笑话。
One of them was in Keith's neighborhood recently and texted Evan about it.
其中一位最近在基思的社区，并给埃文发短信询问此事。
His friend joked that he should go take a selfie in front of Keith's house.
他的朋友开玩笑说他应该去基思家门口自拍。
Evan looked up Keith's address on his computer, copied and pasted it into a text to his friend, hit Send.
埃文在电脑上查找了基思的地址，将其复制并粘贴到发给他朋友的短信中，然后点击“发送”。
Then he realized he had accidentally texted Keith's address to Keith.
然后他意识到他不小心把基思的地址发短信给了基思。
I screamed when Evan told me this.
当埃文告诉我这件事时，我尖叫起来。
He thinks he saved it by quickly editing the text to a period, pretending it was an accidental butt text.
他认为他通过快速将文本编辑为句号来保存它，假装这是一个意外的对接文本。
Did you know can edit texts on an iPhone?
您知道可以在 iPhone 上编辑文本吗？
I didn't.
我没有。
Recently, he wrote to Keith one last time, asking if he would talk.
最近，他最后一次写信给基思，询问他是否愿意谈谈。
I see the email.
我看到电子邮件了。
Keith responded.
基思回应道。
[GASPS] Oh my god, yes, count me in.
[喘气] 天啊，是的，算我一个吧。
Keith was game.
基思很有趣。
Evan Roberts What the fuck?
埃文·罗伯茨 他妈的什么？
Oh.
哦。
They talk over Zoom, Keith calling in from Brooklyn.
他们通过 Zoom 进行交谈，基思从布鲁克林打来电话。
I'm with Evan in his apartment in San Francisco, sitting at his dining room table.
我和埃文一起在他位于旧金山的公寓里，坐在他的餐桌旁。
I can hear you.
我能听到你的声音。
Keith Oh my gosh, you sound good.
基思 哦天哪，你听起来不错。
You sound good too.
你听起来也不错。
Tobin Low It takes a minute for them to figure out where to start.
托宾·洛（Tobin Low） 他们花了一分钟才弄清楚从哪里开始。
The usual awkwardness of a Zoom call is made even worse when it's a man talking to his ex-boyfriend.
当一个男人在和他的前男友通话时，Zoom 通话中通常会出现的尴尬会变得更糟。
Evan brings up the last time they talked to see if Keith remembers.
埃文提起他们上次谈话的时间，看看基思是否还记得。
No, since then.
不，从那时起。
Do you want to guess again?
你想再猜一次吗？
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Oh, yeah, I mean, that happened.
哦，是的，我是说，那件事发生了。
I remember that was-- but we've had dinner since then.
我记得那是——但从那以后我们就一起吃了晚饭。
This happens a bunch of times.
这种情况发生了很多次。
Whatever Evan brings up, Keith only kind of remembers or doesn't remember at all, like when Evan brings up the time Keith spelled out a secret message in matchsticks, one of his favorite memories of their time together.
无论埃文提起什么，基思都只记得或根本不记得，就像埃文提起基思用火柴棍拼出一条秘密信息的时候，这是他们在一起时他最喜欢的回忆之一。
It was "the thought of you makes me hot--" was your new one.
你的新想法是“一想到你就让我兴奋——”。
Keith doesn't remember it.
基思不记得了。
What's worse than having someone be angry at you, never want to see you again?
还有什么比有人对你生气、再也不想见到你更糟糕的呢？
I'll tell you what's worse-- finding out they don't think of you at all.
我会告诉你更糟糕的事情——发现他们根本不考虑你。
Then they get down to business, start talking about the night of their breakup.
然后他们开始谈正事，开始谈论分手的那天晚上。
And Keith explains he'd hoped that at the end of the night, with them finally in the same city, they could really do the thing-- be together.
基思解释说，他希望在夜晚结束时，他们终于在同一个城市，他们可以真正做到这一点——在一起。
But Evan showed no excitement.
但埃文并没有表现出任何兴奋。
In fact, Evan told him, whoa, slow down, one step at a time.
事实上，埃文告诉他，哇，慢一点，一步一步。
I think my impression was that you wanted to be together, but you wanted to be friends.
我想我的印象是你想在一起，但你想成为朋友。
I felt like that's what you wanted only.
我觉得这就是你想要的。
Only.
仅有的。
Keith And that was really hard.
基思 这真的很难。
I didn't want that.
我不想那样。
I wanted you to feel the same way about me that I did about you.
我希望你对我有同样的感觉，就像我对你的感觉一样。
I wanted you to rush over and want to embrace--
我想让你冲过去想要拥抱——
You wanted the rom-com.
你想要浪漫喜剧。
You wanted us running to each other in the airport or--
你想让我们在机场跑到对方身边或者——
Yeah, totally.
是的，完全可以。
Tobin Low That night, Evan actually thought he was saying yes to Keith but just asking to ease into things.
托宾·洛 那天晚上，埃文实际上以为他是在向基思说“是”，但只是要求放松一下。
Keith had taken it as being friend zoned.
基思认为这是朋友圈。
They both admit that they didn't do a good job of just saying that to each other.
他们都承认，仅仅对对方说这些话并没有做得很好。
Classic.
经典的。
But as much as Keith remembers that moment, he admits he doesn't really remember what happened after that night.
但尽管基思记得那一刻，他承认他并不真正记得那天晚上之后发生的事情。
Did I just ignore you?
我刚才是不是无视你了？
Please tell me I didn't just ignore you.
请告诉我我并没有忽视你。
There was a breakup card that you sent in the mail with a hole in it.
你寄来的分手卡上有一个洞。
[GASPS] Oh my god.
[喘气]天啊。
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
Oh, I remember that.
哦，我记得。
Oh, Lord.
噢，主啊。
It's your masterpiece.
这是你的杰作。
Keith Oh my god.
基思 天哪。
Will that be in my retrospective?
这会出现在我的回顾展中吗？
[LAUGHS] Keith I mean, I'm not proud to admit this, but I probably wanted to hurt you.
[笑]基思，我的意思是，我并不自豪地承认这一点，但我可能想伤害你。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
That's not a great card to get, particularly one where I put stickers on the outside.
这不是一张很好的卡片，尤其是我在外面贴了贴纸的卡片。
Like, that seems like a psychopath.
就像，这看起来像一个精神病患者。
[LAUGHS] Keith Like promising one thing and then being another.
[笑]基思 就像承诺一件事然后又做另一件事。
Like, hey, this is going to be a fun card.
就像，嘿，这将是一张有趣的卡片。
I know it's been a little weird between us, but guess what?
我知道我们之间有点奇怪，但你猜怎么着？
Evan and Keith talk for over two hours.
埃文和基思聊了两个多小时。
At times, their conversation feels a little polite, like two well-therapied gay men talking about their trauma while being recorded by a third well-therapied gay man.
有时，他们的谈话感觉有点礼貌，就像两个接受良好治疗的男同性恋者谈论他们的创伤，而第三个接受良好治疗的男同性恋者正在录音。
But at least Evan has the answer to why Keith had sent the card, which clears the way for Evan to do the thing he came here to do-- make his case that they should have been friends all along.
但至少埃文知道了基思为何寄出这张卡片的答案，这为埃文做他来这里要做的事情扫清了道路——证明他们应该一直是朋友。
Yeah.
是的。
I just feel like I wish that we could have figured out how to be friends, that's all, this whole time.
我只是觉得我希望我们能够弄清楚如何成为朋友，仅此而已。
Yeah.
是的。
Evan Roberts Do you wish that was possible?
埃文·罗伯茨 你希望这是可能的吗？
I just hadn't really thought about it.
我只是没有真正考虑过。
As a compartmentalizer-- until you posed that question, I don't think I've really considered it.
作为一个划分者——直到你提出这个问题，我认为我还没有真正考虑过它。
Evan just keeps trying to convince him that he's got it all wrong.
埃文一直试图让他相信他完全错了。
I don't-- yeah.
我不——是的。
I don't understand-- for me, when I connect with someone, when I have the kind of experience I had with you and with other loves of my life, it feels like such a-- like, I'm not doing it-- I'm investing for a reason.
我不明白——对我来说，当我与某人建立联系时，当我拥有与你以及我生命中其他所爱的人的那种经历时，感觉就像——就像，我不这样做——我投资是有原因的。
And I want someone still in my life.
我希望有人还在我的生活中。
I have wanted you in my life since we broke up.
自从我们分手以来，我一直想要你出现在我的生活中。
Keith huffs a couple of times, eventually wiping away some tears.
基思气喘吁吁了几声，最终擦掉了一些眼泪。
He seems overwhelmed, like he wasn't expecting this depth of feeling from Evan.
他似乎不知所措，好像他没想到埃文会有如此深的感情。
I feel sad.
我感到难过。
I feel sad about how I handled it, how I communicated, and that I was hurtful to you.
我对我的处理方式、沟通方式以及伤害了你感到难过。
And I also am just sad for me and who I was then.
我也为我自己和当时的我感到悲伤。
So it just is placing me in that small room I paid $300 for or something with no furniture and wanting my life to be something that it wasn't.
所以它只是把我安置在那个我花了 300 美元买的小房间或者没有家具的地方，并希望我的生活不是这样的。
And also, it makes me sad that you-- I think what you said, like, I have needed you as a friend and a person in my life, just makes me feel like just what a waste of time.
而且，让我感到难过的是你——我认为你所说的，比如，我需要你作为我生命中的朋友和一个人，只是让我觉得这是浪费时间。
Evan is also taking it in, seems flustered.
埃文也愣住了，看上去很慌张。
It's so weird.
太奇怪了。
It's so weird to be right here right now, Keith.
基思，现在站在这里真是太奇怪了。
I never thought I'd ever hear any of these things come out of your mouth.
我从来没想过我会从你嘴里听到这些话。
Keith asks if they can take a break.
基思问他们是否可以休息一下。
When we get back on the Zoom, I remind Evan we have one last piece of business-- the accidental text.
当我们回到 Zoom 时，我提醒埃文我们还有最后一件事情——意外的短信。
OK.
好的。
So you can imagine how-- Tobin Low Evan tells him about how his friend had texted him he was in Keith's neighborhood, their joke about taking a selfie in front of his house.
所以你可以想象托宾·洛·埃文（Tobin Low Evan）如何告诉他他的朋友如何给他发短信说他在基思（Keith）的社区，他们开玩笑说在他家门前自拍。
So I copied the address, and I texted it to him.
于是我复制了地址，然后发短信给他。
And then I realized that I sent it to you.
然后我意识到我把它寄给了你。
[LAUGHS] Really?
[笑]真的吗？
Evan Roberts Oh, thank god.
埃文·罗伯茨哦，谢天谢地。
Keith gets out his iPhone.
基思拿出他的 iPhone。
Keith Oh, God, there it is.
基思 噢，天哪，就在那里。
See the period?
看到时期了吗？
Now, see where it says edited?
现在，看看哪里说已编辑？
Yeah.
是的。
Evan Roberts You can actually press that and see what--
埃文·罗伯茨（Evan Roberts）你实际上可以按下那个按钮，看看会发生什么——
Oh!
哦！
[LAUGHS] Tobin Low Keith taps on the screen, which lets him see the original unedited text with his address.
[笑]托宾·洛·基思 (Tobin Low Keith) 轻敲屏幕，让他看到未经编辑的原始文本和他的地址。
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
See, this is the good thing about stalking somebody who doesn't understand their phone.
看，这就是跟踪那些不懂手机的人的好处。
[LAUGHS] Tobin Low The way they're laughing, they sound somewhat like, dare I say, friends?
[笑] Tobin Low 他们笑的方式，我敢说，他们听起来有点像朋友？
A tension in the room is released.
房间里的紧张气氛得到释放。
They're more relaxed.
他们更加放松。
And Evan, to my surprise, admits that maybe this all was a bit much.
令我惊讶的是，埃文承认也许这一切有点过分了。
There's all these other little details that I have stuck in my head.
还有所有这些其他的小细节都留在我的脑海里。
But I think part of this also is I might just need to let go of some things too.
但我认为部分原因是我可能也需要放弃一些事情。
Maybe I don't need to hold on to so many details.
也许我不需要保留那么多细节。
Yeah.
是的。
You're a holder on-er.
你是一个持有者。
Evan Roberts I'm a holder on-er, for sure.
埃文·罗伯茨（Evan Roberts）我当然是一个持有者。
Yeah.
是的。
About most things in your life, right?
关于你生活中的大多数事情，对吧？
Or like--
或者像——
Tobin Low You're a holder on-er-- such an intimate observation.
托宾·洛（Tobin Low）：你是一个坚持者——如此亲密的观察。
Maybe Evan was right.
也许埃文是对的。
Maybe digging up all this old stuff with your exes isn't just a masochistic exercise.
也许和你的前任一起挖掘所有这些旧东西不仅仅是一种受虐行为。
They say they'll get dinner the next time Keith is in town.
他们说下次基思进城时他们会去吃晚饭。
The call ends, leaving Evan and me in the apartment.
通话结束，埃文和我留在公寓里。
I'm kind of shocked.
我有点震惊。
Evan Roberts You are?
埃文·罗伯茨 你是？
Yeah.
是的。
I really came in today kind of worried for you or not sure what was going to happen.
我今天进来真的有点担心你或者不确定会发生什么。
And I feel genuinely convinced that this was a worthwhile exercise, which I'm surprised by.
我真诚地相信这是一次值得的练习，对此我感到惊讶。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I just wanted to say that.
我只是想说这个。
I'm so glad you feel that way, actually.
事实上，我很高兴你有这样的感觉。
I feel vindicated that I convinced you.
我觉得我说服了你是正确的。
I talked to Evan again recently.
最近我又和埃文谈过。
He said Keith came through town.
他说基思是从镇上来的。
They didn't get dinner, but he's OK with it.
他们没有吃晚饭，但他对此表示同意。
He doesn't have any more questions for him.
他没有更多问题要问他了。
Tobin Low is a producer in our program.
托宾·洛 (Tobin Low) 是我们节目的制片人。
Coming up, a shirt makes judicial history.
接下来，一件衬衫将创造司法历史。
Did it commit a murder?
它犯了谋杀罪吗？
Did it embezzle funds?
是否挪用资金？
Did it violate the Clean Air Act of 1970?
它是否违反了 1970 年的《清洁空气法》？
Answers in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，芝加哥公共广播电台将在一分钟内答复。
Act Three: The Lawyer, The Judge and The Wardrobe Ira Glass This American Life.
第三幕：律师、法官和衣橱 艾拉·格拉斯的美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "I Want What I Want," stories of people deciding to do things that most of us choose not to do.
今天的节目“我想要我想要的”讲述了人们决定做我们大多数人选择不做的事情的故事。
We have arrived at Act Three of our program.
我们已经到了我们计划的第三幕了。
"Act Three, The Lawyer, The Judge, and The Wardrobe." So our show today is about people making unusual choices.
“第三幕，律师、法官和衣柜。”所以我们今天的节目是关于人们做出不寻常的选择的。
And we turn now to a judge making a decision this week that everybody who hears about it seems to agree was a very eccentric decision, not the kind of decision one usually sees.
现在我们转向法官本周做出的一项决定，每个听到此事的人似乎都同意这是一个非常古怪的决定，而不是人们通常看到的那种决定。
This happened in a big federal trial in Texas, the Antifa trial of the century, in fact, a kind of landmark case for the Trump administration.
这发生在得克萨斯州的一场大型联邦审判中，即本世纪的 Antifa 审判，事实上，对特朗普政府来说是一个具有里程碑意义的案件。
One of our producers, Zoe Chace, was there for the first day of the trial on Tuesday.
我们的制片人之一佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 参加了周二审判的第一天。
You can't record in this federal courtroom, but Zoe took notes on that first day when they were picking the jury, the part of the process that's called voir dire.
你不能在这个联邦法庭上录音，但佐伊在第一天挑选陪审团时做了笔记，这个过程被称为“voir dire”。
In Texas, by the way, everybody calls it "voor dyer." But our Yankee correspondent, Zoe Chace, has no interest in cultural appropriation and is going to stick to her native way of saying it, voir dire.
顺便说一句，在德克萨斯州，每个人都称其为“voor Dyer”。但我们的洋基队记者佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 对文化挪用不感兴趣，并会坚持她自己的说法，voir dire。
And she now tells us what happened in that courtroom.
现在她告诉我们法庭上发生了什么。
It was eventful.
这是多事的。
So Judge Mark Pittman kind of sweeps into the room.
于是马克·皮特曼法官就冲进了房间。
All rise.
全部崛起。
Here's the judge.
这是法官。
He's a Trump appointee from the first Trump administration.
他是特朗普第一届政府任命的人。
He's a bit of a showman, charismatic and kind of exciting to hear from.
他有点像个表演家，很有魅力，听他的讲话也很令人兴奋。
He has a very strong Texas twang.
他有很浓的德克萨斯口音。
He welcomes in everybody.
他欢迎所有人。
And he's like, you should know, I have a pet peeve of people who make fun of jury service.
他说，你应该知道，我最讨厌那些取笑陪审团服务的人。
I like to quote Frederick Douglass.
我喜欢引用弗雷德里克·道格拉斯的话。
He says, we have three boxes that preserve liberty and justice in this country-- the ballot box, the cartridge box, and the jury box.
他说，我们这个国家有三个维护自由和正义的盒子——投票箱、弹匣箱和陪审团箱。
Dramatic pause.
戏剧性的停顿。
And when they get to the part where you're supposed to start questioning the jurors, the voir dire, he goes first.
当他们到了你应该开始询问陪审员的部分时，即预审阶段，他先走了。
He leads it.
他领导它。
And I'm in the overflow room, so I can't see the jury.
我在溢流室，所以看不到陪审团。
But there's 75 or so of them.
但其中大约有 75 个。
There's a big group of them.
他们有一大群。
And they're going to pick 12 people and I guess a couple of alternates, right?
他们将挑选 12 个人，我猜还有几个替补，对吗？
Right, 12 jurors, three alternates.
右，12 名陪审员，三名候补陪审员。
And the judge starts asking questions to the jurors to see potential bias in the jurors.
法官开始向陪审员提问，以了解陪审员中潜在的偏见。
So he asks them, What kind of experience do you have with law enforcement?
所以他问他们，你们在执法方面有什么经验？
which is not an unusual question in a trial like this.
在这样的审判中，这并不是一个不寻常的问题。
And then he goes, do you have strong feelings about what ICE has been doing?
然后他说，你对 ICE 所做的事情有强烈的感受吗？
Are you pro or con?
你是赞成还是反对？
And let me just say, he's asking about ICE because this particular case has-- is it nine defendants, Zoe?
我只想说，他询问 ICE 的情况是因为这个特殊案件有 9 名被告，佐伊？
Yeah, at this point.
是的，在这一点上。
Ira Glass And they were protesting ICE's actions.
Ira Glass：他们抗议 ICE 的行为。
They were at an ICE facility.
他们当时在 ICE 设施内。
Right.
正确的。
I mean, the government would say that they went to attack an ICE facility.
我的意思是，政府会说他们去攻击 ICE 设施。
And in fact, one of the defendants did shoot a local police officer, and that officer was wounded.
事实上，其中一名被告确实开枪射击了一名当地警察，该警察受伤。
And the government's arguing that these defendants were organized, they're part of an Antifa cell.
政府辩称这些被告是有组织的，他们是 Antifa 组织的一部分。
This is the government's big case, where they're hoping to show that there is an Antifa.
这是政府的大案，他们希望表明安提法的存在。
It's a domestic terror group.
这是一个国内恐怖组织。
And you can win big convictions on that.
你可以在这一点上赢得坚定的信念。
And we should say, the defense says none of this is true.
我们应该说，辩方说这些都不是真的。
They say they were not a group.
他们说他们不是一个团体。
They say these people were not planning an attack.
他们说这些人并没有计划发动袭击。
They say they were protesters protesting ICE.
他们说他们是抗议 ICE 的抗议者。
Right.
正确的。
And so the judge is asking these potential jurors, what are your feelings about ICE?
所以法官问这些潜在的陪审员，你对 ICE 有何看法？
And the way he asked, it's like, do any of you have strong feelings about what ICE is doing?
他问的方式就像是，你们中有人对 ICE 正在做的事情有强烈的感受吗？
Pro or con is what he says.
赞成或反对都是他说的。
And he sort of has people raise their hands.
他让人们举手。
But juror after juror is raising their hand, and they're saying, yes, I am very upset about what ICE is doing.
但陪审员一个接一个地举手，他们说，是的，我对 ICE 的做法感到非常不安。
I do not like what ICE is doing.
我不喜欢 ICE 所做的事情。
So this is Tarrant County, Texas.
这是德克萨斯州塔兰特县。
It's like a purple district in the middle of the country.
它就像该国中部的一个紫色地区。
And this is like the definition of a random sample of people.
这就像随机样本的定义。
But at least according to people around me, like local reporters and people who live in the area, this doesn't sound like Tarrant County, Texas to them, just person after person saying they're upset about ICE.
但至少根据我周围的人，比如当地记者和住在该地区的人的说法，这听起来不像德克萨斯州塔兰特县，只是一个又一个的人说他们对 ICE 感到不安。
And I don't know.
我不知道。
The judge did bring up Minneapolis.
法官确实提到了明尼阿波利斯。
And since Minneapolis, a majority of Americans don't approve of what ICE is doing.
自明尼阿波利斯以来，大多数美国人并不赞同 ICE 的做法。
So maybe that's what this is an example of.
所以也许这就是这个例子。
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
And did anybody, when they raised their hand, did they say, yes, I have a strong feeling about ICE, that President Trump is finally delivering on his promises, and I'm very much in favor of what ICE is doing?
当他们举手时，有没有人说，是的，我对 ICE 有强烈的感觉，特朗普总统终于兑现了他的承诺，我非常支持 ICE 所做的事情？
Does anybody say that?
有人这么说吗？
No. It's just person after person, no ICE, boo, ICE.
不，只是一个又一个的人，没有 ICE，嘘，ICE。
And the judge was very focused on this follow-up, which was, OK, can you put aside your feelings about ICE?
法官非常关注这个后续行动，那就是，好吧，你能抛开你对 ICE 的感受吗？
However strong they are, can you leave them outside the courtroom?
不管他们有多强大，你能把他们留在法庭外面吗？
Which does not seem like a bad question.
这似乎不是一个坏问题。
Not at all.
一点也不。
But a lot of times, they would be like, I don't know if I can.
但很多时候，他们会说，我不知道我是否可以。
I will try, but I am really upset.
我会尝试，但我真的很难过。
And the judge-- which seems honest.
还有法官——看起来很诚实。
The judge would kind of push them.
法官会推动他们。
So does that mean you can't follow my instructions under the Constitution to consider only what's in front of you?
那么这是否意味着你不能按照我根据宪法的指示只考虑你面前的事情？
And then they would eventually be like, yes, I can follow your instructions.
然后他们最终会说，是的，我可以遵循你的指示。
Most of them ended up saying yes after some pushing from him.
在他的一番推动下，大多数人最终都同意了。
And he kept using as an example-- he kept being like, I'm an Aggie, so you know how I feel about the University of Texas.
他一直用这样的例子——他一直说，我是一个阿吉，所以你知道我对德克萨斯大学的感觉。
But if the University of Texas was on trial, I could put my feelings aside and judge the University of Texas fairly.
但如果德克萨斯大学接受审判，我可以抛开自己的感情，公正地评价德克萨斯大学。
If I can do that, can you do that?
如果我能做到，你也能做到吗？
And finally, one of the potential jurors in the back and forth said, "Sir, respectfully, a college rivalry is not the same as human rights."
最后，一位潜在的陪审员说：“先生，尊敬的，大学竞争与人权不同。”
Wow.
哇。
Zoe Chace And this anti-ICE stuff comes up again.
Zoe Chace 这种反 ICE 的东西又出现了。
Then when the prosecution gets a chance to ask their questions, one woman just starts out saying, "I don't think I can be on this jury.
然后，当检方有机会提问时，一名女性就开始说：“我认为我不能成为陪审团成员。
I have two family members who have died after being deported." Another one is like, "ICE's tactics, the conditions in the detention facilities are horrific.
我有两名家人在被驱逐出境后去世了。”另一种说法是，“ICE 的策略，拘留设施的条件非常可怕。
I don't know if I could put my feelings aside." And the government attorney is like, "I'm sorry, could you repeat that?" She's like, "Horrific!"
我不知道我是否可以抛开我的感情。”政府检察官说：“对不起，你能再说一遍吗？”她说：“太可怕了！”
So things are not going so great for the prosecutors.
所以对于检察官来说事情进展得不太顺利。
What happens when the defense attorneys get up and get to ask their questions of the potential jurors?
当辩护律师站起来向潜在陪审员提问时会发生什么？
Yeah.
是的。
The defense comes up, and right away, things go awry.
防守一上来，事情立刻就出了岔子。
The story really changes here.
故事在这里真的发生了变化。
The first defense attorney comes to ask her questions.
第一辩护律师过来问她问题。
This is defense attorney Marquita Clayton.
我是辩护律师马奎塔·克莱顿。
And she brings sort of a poster board to help with her questioning.
她还带来了一块海报板来帮助她提问。
And the judge sees this and he, like, freaks.
法官看到了这一点，他就像个怪胎。
He's like, what is that?
他说，那是什么？
Has the prosecution seen that?
检方看到了吗？
I haven't seen that.
我没见过。
You are not allowed to bring props in here-- maybe in state court.
你不可以带道具进来——也许在州法院是这样。
This is federal court.
这是联邦法院。
He's very upset, and the poster board is hastily put away.
他很不高兴，赶紧把海报板收了起来。
And then she's asking some questions about whether or not you can bring a gun to a protest, what the potential jurors think about that.
然后她问了一些问题，比如是否可以带枪参加抗议，潜在的陪审员对此有何看法。
It's a bit of a confusingly phrased question, to be honest.
老实说，这是一个措辞有点令人困惑的问题。
And it's taking a while because she's going juror by juror.
这需要一段时间，因为她要逐个陪审员。
And the judge interrupts.
法官打断了。
He's impatient.
他不耐烦了。
He just goes, defense counsel, is this really how you want to use your time?
他只是说，辩护律师，你真的想这样利用你的时间吗？
Something like, I've been the most generous federal judge in the history of the world, given you guys 90 minutes.
比如说，我是世界历史上最慷慨的联邦法官，给了你们 90 分钟的时间。
This has been going on for 22 minutes.
这种情况已经持续了22分钟。
I really think you should consider whether this is a good use of your time-- something to that effect.
我真的认为你应该考虑这是否能很好地利用你的时间——有这样的效果。
And I want to note, this attorney he's rebuking is a Black woman.
我想指出的是，他斥责的这位律师是一位黑人女性。
She's the only Black woman attorney, as far as I can see, in a room full of attorneys.
据我所知，她是满屋律师中唯一的黑人女律师。
The judge-- white guy.
法官——白人。
So that's the scene.
这就是当时的场景。
And then he goes, in fact, you all better have a little visit and think about whether this is how you really want to proceed-- or something to that effect.
然后他说，事实上，你们最好进行一次短暂的访问，并思考这是否是你们真正想要的方式——或者达到这种效果的东西。
He's just--
他只是——
You mean you-- defense attorneys, get together, have a timeout--
你的意思是你们——辩护律师，聚在一起，暂停一下——
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass --talk about whether this is what you want to do?
Ira Glass——谈谈这是否是你想做的？
Because I'm here to tell you it's not.
因为我来这里是为了告诉你事实并非如此。
And so there's this little recess.
所以就有了这个小休息时间。
And then when he comes back, he's hot.
然后当他回来时，他就很热。
He's upset.
他很沮丧。
And he just starts right into what he's upset about.
他一开始就开始谈论他感到不安的事情。
And he's like, there are very clear rules in this court about having demonstratives in the courtroom.
他说，这个法庭对于在法庭上示威有非常明确的规则。
Right, bringing any prop with you to the courtroom-- and also about what you're wearing in the courtroom.
是的，带上你去法庭的所有道具，以及你在法庭上的着装。
And this attorney, I have just realized, is wearing a shirt.
我刚刚意识到，这位律师穿着一件衬衫。
This attorney means the defense attorney.
该律师指的是辩护律师。
Yeah.
是的。
And indeed, this attorney is wearing a shirt-- she's wearing a blazer over it-- that I happened to see earlier in the bathroom.
事实上，这位律师穿着一件衬衫——她外面套了一件西装外套——我早些时候在浴室里碰巧看到了这一点。
So I saw it up close.
于是我就近距离的看到了。
It's kind of checkered.
它有点格子状。
It's these little squares, smaller than a cigarette packet, of civil rights leaders.
这些比烟盒还小的小方块，是民权领袖的代表。
Martin Luther King is on there.
马丁·路德·金就在那里。
And it's kind of iconic images of the civil rights movement.
这是民权运动的标志性图像。
And when I saw it, I was like, oh, she put that on because Jesse Jackson just died.
当我看到它时，我就想，哦，她戴上它是因为杰西·杰克逊刚刚去世。
We just got the news he died that morning.
那天早上我们刚刚得知他去世的消息。
So it's a shirt honoring protesters.
所以这是一件向抗议者致敬的衬衫。
And the judge is like, we've been talking about peaceful protest for 20 minutes, and you're wearing a shirt with peaceful protesters on it.
法官说，我们已经谈论和平抗议 20 分钟了，而你穿着一件印有和平抗议者的衬衫。
And the jurors can't unsee that.
陪审员们无法忽视这一点。
You can't use your clothing to influence the jury.
你不能用你的衣服来影响陪审团。
He says, that shirt has a politically charged message.
他说，那件衬衫带有政治色彩。
It's as if the prosecutor were wearing ICE-friendly pins or a shirt with Donald Trump on it, riding an eagle, flying an ICE flag.
就好像检察官戴着 ICE 友好别针或印有唐纳德·特朗普 (Donald Trump) 的衬衫，骑着鹰，飘扬着 ICE 旗帜。
I'm sure the defense would go ballistic if that happened.
我确信如果发生这种情况，防守队员会发怒。
This is why in England, they wear black robes and wigs.
这就是为什么在英国，他们穿着黑袍，戴着假发。
I don't think this can be corrected by any type of instruction to the jury.
我认为向陪审团发出任何类型的指示都无法纠正这一问题。
And so I have no choice but to declare a mistrial.
所以我别无选择，只能宣布审判无效。
Everyone is like, what?
大家都是这样的，什么？
Because this is a crazy turn of events.
因为这是一个疯狂的事件转变。
That's like a nuclear bomb, to just drop the entire trial and start it over because of this woman's shirt.
这就像一颗核弹，因为这个女人的衬衫而放弃整个审判并重新开始。
Wait, and what do people do?
等等，人们会做什么？
Zoe Chace Well, everyone's just surprised.
佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）：嗯，每个人都很惊讶。
Everybody is stunned in the room.
房间里的所有人都惊呆了。
And the judge is kind of like, I'm going to see what all the attorneys think about this.
法官有点像，我要看看所有律师对此有何看法。
I should say also that the jury is not back from the break.
我还应该说，陪审团还没有从休息中回来。
The potential jury is not seeing this whole back and forth.
潜在的陪审团并没有看到这整个过程。
Anyway, the judge pulls all the attorneys, like, do you guys think there should be a mistrial?
无论如何，法官召集了所有律师，就像，你们认为应该误审吗？
And even the government, whose case was supposedly hurt beyond repair because of this shirt, they seem taken aback.
就连政府，据说因为这件衬衫而受到了无法挽回的伤害，他们似乎也大吃一惊。
They seem surprised by this turn of events.
他们似乎对这一事件的转变感到惊讶。
And they say, basically, I don't know.
他们说，基本上，我不知道。
They don't cosine the mistrial.
他们不会余弦审判无效。
They don't ask for a mistrial.
他们不要求无效审判。
And OK, it is against the rules of the courtroom to wear a shirt like this, a shirt with a message on it.
好吧，穿这样的衬衫是违反法庭规则的，一件上面有信息的衬衫。
I talked to a federal prosecutor from the same district who agreed with the judge that it could undermine the whole trial.
我与同区的一位联邦检察官交谈过，他同意法官的观点，即这可能会破坏整个审判。
She said, if you're going to throw out the whole case and restart it because of a shirt, this was just the first day.
她说，如果你要因为一件衬衫而扔掉整个案子并重新启动，那么这只是第一天。
You're not losing much.
你并没有损失太多。
Someone else I talked to, a federal defense attorney in Texas, said she'd never wear a shirt like that to court.
我采访过的另一个人，一位德克萨斯州的联邦辩护律师，说她永远不会穿那样的衬衫去法庭。
But she also said, I don't agree with the judge that there was no other option besides a mistrial.
但她也表示，我不同意法官的观点，即除了误审之外没有其他选择。
There are lots of options.
有很多选择。
You can sanction the lawyer.
你可以制裁律师。
You could fine them.
你可以对他们罚款。
You can tell the jury to disregard what they've seen.
你可以告诉陪审团不要理会他们所看到的。
You can ask the jury if they even saw it.
你可以询问陪审团是否看到了。
So mistrials are rare.
因此，误审很少见。
Zoe Chace Mistrials are extremely rare.
佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）的误判极为罕见。
The judge himself said he'd never called one before in his whole career.
法官本人表示，他在整个职业生涯中从未打过电话。
Then the judge-- it's not over.
然后法官——事情还没有结束。
He says he needs a break to go review the law, and he kind of sweeps out of there.
他说他需要休息一下去审查法律，然后他就离开了那里。
I go back into the hallway, and I see one of the defense attorneys.
我回到走廊，看到了一位辩护律师。
And I'm like, "Dude, what is going on?
我就像，“伙计，发生了什么事？
Like, is there going to be a mistrial because of her shirt?" And he's like, "It's not the shirt.
比如，会因为她的衬衫而导致审判无效吗？”他说：“这不是衬衫的问题。
The judge doesn't like the jury panel." And I'm like, "Why?" And he's like, "Because they hate ICE." And that the shirt, the shirt is the MacGuffin in order to restart this whole thing and get a new jury pool to choose from.
法官不喜欢陪审团。”我想，“为什么？”他说，“因为他们讨厌 ICE。”那件衬衫，这件衬衫是麦高芬为了重新启动整个事情并获得一个新的陪审团可供选择的。
I mean, that is pure speculation.
我的意思是，这纯粹是猜测。
That is not what the judge said.
法官不是这么说的。
That's not the stated reason for calling a mistrial.
这并不是宣布无效审判的原因。
And later, that defense lawyer pulled it back.
后来那位辩护律师又撤回了。
He was like, I really don't know.
他说，我真的不知道。
But it was a significant thing, how many people were against ICE over and over, and people saying they wouldn't be able to put their feelings aside over and over.
但这是一件很重要的事情，有多少人一遍又一遍地反对 ICE，人们说他们无法一遍又一遍地把自己的感情放在一边。
How many people was it?
当时有多少人？
Zoe Chace It was 18 to 20.
佐伊·查斯 当时是 18 点到 20 点。
I know we're talking about a jury pool of 70-plus people.
我知道我们谈论的是由 70 多人组成的陪审团。
But the way the process works, the prosecution would not necessarily be able to block all the jurors who hated ICE, if that's what they wanted to do, just because of the rules of the game.
但按照程序的运作方式，检方不一定能够阻止所有讨厌 ICE 的陪审员，如果他们想这么做的话，仅仅因为游戏规则。
But if the judge, in fact, is doing this because he doesn't want people who have strong feelings against these law enforcement figures to be on a jury that's about these law enforcement figures, that's not so strange.
但如果法官这样做实际上是因为他不希望那些对这些执法人员有强烈感情的人成为与这些执法人员有关的陪审团成员，那就没什么奇怪的了。
It seems like that would happen in any courtroom for any trial involving law enforcement figures.
任何涉及执法人员的审判似乎都会发生这种情况。
Yeah.
是的。
That's not a weird goal at all.
这根本不是一个奇怪的目标。
It's potential bias, their feelings about ICE.
这是潜在的偏见，他们对 ICE 的感受。
It's not strange the judge would want that at all.
法官想要这样一点也不奇怪。
But it is strange to call a mistrial.
但称之为无效审判是很奇怪的。
And there is a clue that something else was going on with this judge, which was at the end of this strange day in court, he calls the jury back in, and he gives this little speech.
有线索表明这位法官还发生了其他事情，就在法庭上这个奇怪的一天结束时，他召集陪审团回来，并发表了这篇简短的演讲。
And it kind of comes out of nowhere.
它不知从何而来。
He talks again about how much jury service matters, and this should be a place where you can set your personal politics aside.
他再次谈到陪审团服务的重要性，这应该是一个你可以把个人政治放在一边的地方。
And then he says, I'm disgusted by where America is today, how hopelessly divided we are over politics.
然后他说，我对美国今天的处境感到厌恶，我们在政治上的分歧是多么绝望。
In the 1850s, Abraham Lincoln said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." I don't want my sons to fight in the next civil war.
1850 年代，亚伯拉罕·林肯 (Abraham Lincoln) 曾说过：“一个内部分裂的家庭是站不住脚的。”我不希望我的儿子们参加下一次内战。
We have to find a way to turn down the anger and the hatred.
我们必须找到一种方法来平息愤怒和仇恨。
Wait, what?
等等，什么？
Zoe Chace I know.
佐伊·切斯我知道。
Everyone around me was looking at each other like, what was that?
我周围的每个人都面面相觑，那是什么？
And I think he was frustrated by how impossible it seemed to create a room right now that is what a courtroom is supposed to be-- neutral ground.
我认为他感到沮丧，因为现在似乎不可能创建一个法庭应有的房间——中立的地方。
He said over and over during the whole day how important it is to get an unbiased jury that only considers the facts in front of them, to have a room with no politics in it.
他一整天都一遍又一遍地说，拥有一个公正的陪审团、只考虑眼前的事实、拥有一个没有政治色彩的房间是多么重要。
The shirt violated that, and possibly the jurors' answers about ICE.
这件衬衫违反了这一点，也可能违反了陪审员对 ICE 的回答。
But of course, the problem in trying to create an apolitical trial is the very premise of this trial is so political.
但当然，试图创造一场非政治审判的问题在于，这场审判的前提是如此政治化。
It's about this stuff being debated literally every day, all the time.
这是关于这个问题每天都在争论的话题。
It's ICE, Trump, Antifa, Antifa versus ICE.
这是 ICE、特朗普、Antifa、Antifa 对抗 ICE。
Maybe there's a room somewhere you could discuss it objectively.
也许有一个房间可以让你们客观地讨论这个问题。
I just don't know if that room exists in the United States.
我只是不知道美国是否有这个房间。
OK.
好的。
And so, Zoe, I think what you're saying is, I think your big conclusion today is-- you're saying we are a very divided country?
所以，佐伊，我认为你的意思是，我认为你今天的重要结论是——你是说我们是一个非常分裂的国家？
You heard it here first.
你首先在这里听到的。
Ira Glass Zoe Chace is one of the producers of our program.
Ira Glass Zoe Chace 是我们节目的制作人之一。
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Diane Wu.
图片来源 Ira Glass 今天我们的节目由 Diane Wu 制作。
The people who put together today's show include Phia Bennin, Dana Chivvis, Michael Comite, Emmanuel Dzotsi, Chana Joffe-Walt, Valerie Kipnis, Molly Marcello, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Ryan Rumery, Laura Starecheski, Ruthie Pettito, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Julie Whitaker, and Nancy Updike.
今天节目的制作人包括 Phia Bennin、Dana Chivvis、Michael Comite、Emmanuel Dzotsi、Chana Joffe-Walt、Valerie Kipnis、Molly Marcello、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Ryan Rumery、Laura Starecheski、Ruthie Pettito、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Julie Whitaker 和 Nancy Updike。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks to Jiayang Fan, Toluwani Osibamowo, Stephen Monacelli, Chris Impey, and Arnos Mokros.
特别感谢 Fan Jiayang、Toluwani Osibamowo、Stephen Monacelli、Chris Impey 和 Arnos Mokros。
The family with the bees that we had at the top of the show from the film The Boys and the Bees, Nehemiah Ray and his kids and wife, they are active on Instagram.
电影《男孩与蜜蜂》中，尼希米·雷 (Nehemiah Ray) 和他的孩子和妻子在我们的电影《男孩与蜜蜂》中出现在节目顶部，他们在 Instagram 上很活跃。
You can find them @raysdwild-- the spelling's kind of specialized here.
你可以找到它们@raysdwild——这里的拼写有点特殊。
It's the name Ray, R-A-Y, S-D, than the word "wild," @raysdwild.
名字是 Ray，R-A-Y，S-D，而不是“wild”这个词，@raysdwild。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our archive of over 850 shows for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们收藏的超过 850 个节目。
This American Life is distributed by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 发行。
Thanks, as always, to our program's confounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的混杂者 Torey Malatia 先生。
Torey, he is the master of swap meet.
托雷，他是互换比赛的大师。
Any deal you offer him, he is completely stone faced.
你向他提供的任何交易，他都面无表情。
I don't know the value of that, I guess, for me, personally.
我想，就我个人而言，我不知道它的价值。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。