88: Numbers - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #88 | January 2, 2009 88: Numbers Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 88 集 | 2009 年 1 月 2 日 88：数字 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Andrea was working at her first temp job at Bank of America in San Francisco, learning how to use the computers.
序言 Ira Glass 安德里亚正在旧金山的美国银行做她的第一份临时工作，学习如何使用计算机。
And she made this chart with Microsoft Excel.
她用 Microsoft Excel 制作了这张图表。
It's very professional-looking.
看起来非常专业。
The line that goes across the bottom of the chart lists the years between 1987 and 1997.
穿过图表底部的线列出了 1987 年至 1997 年之间的年份。
The left side of this chart, what you might call the y-axis lists numbers of people, going from 0 to 7.
此图表的左侧（您可能称之为 y 轴）列出了人数，从 0 到 7。
There's a legend, and the title at the top of the chart, "My Love Life: A 10-Year Span."
有一个传奇，图表顶部的标题是“我的爱情生活：十年跨度”。
It's basically all the people Andrea made out with or slept with over 10 years.
这基本上是所有与安德里亚亲热或睡过超过 10 年的人。
And once you laid it out this way, in numbers, it's hard not to start thinking about your stats.
一旦你以数字的方式列出它，就很难不开始思考你的统计数据。
Like the huge jump she made in 1994 three to seven.
就像 1994 年她以三比七的巨大飞跃一样。
So seven was my first jump.
所以七是我的第一次跳跃。
That was definitely my highest year, but then '95 followed up with a four, which was higher than all the previous year.
那绝对是我成绩最高的一年，但 95 年紧随其后的是四分，比前一年都高。
So I thought at that time that I'd broken a barrier and that it was just going to be smooth from here on out.
所以当时我想我已经打破了障碍，从此一切都会顺利。
And then '96, I hit another high with five.
然后在 96 年，我又创下了 5 个新高。
So '97 is unexplainable in terms of trends of the chart.
所以 97 年的图表趋势是无法解释的。
In '97, her number is 0.
97年，她的号码是0。
Andrea I think what explains it is I spent the first six months living at home with my mom.
安德里亚（Andrea）我认为可以解释的是，前六个月我和妈妈一起住在家里。
Then there are the dramatic increases in 1994 and 1996-- very big jumps.
然后是 1994 年和 1996 年的急剧增长——非常大的跳跃。
Andrea's phrase for what happened in those years?
安德烈亚的那句话描述了那些年发生的事情？
Her slutty years abroad.
她在国外的放荡岁月。
Well, definitely leaving the country brings my numbers up immediately.
嗯，离开这个国家肯定会让我的数字立即上升。
Me and David Hasselhoff do better in Europe.
我和大卫·哈塞尔霍夫在欧洲做得更好。
So it all started as this funny thing to just try on the computer, kill time with, but as Andrea looked at the chart, it was actually kind of reassuring.
所以这一切开始只是在电脑上尝试一下，消磨时间，这很有趣，但当安德里亚看着图表时，这实际上是一种令人放心的事情。
First of all, it made her look like such a player, which she wasn't really feeling at the time.
首先，这让她看起来像这样一个球员，但她当时并没有真正感觉到这一点。
And the second thing was that, when you reduce people to just numbers, everything that was painful about your relationships with them-- it just vanishes.
第二件事是，当你把人简化为数字时，你与他们的关系中所有令人痛苦的事情都会消失。
The person you kissed who never called you again.
那个你亲过的人再也没有给你打电话。
The really embarrassing person you'd rather just forget ever happened.
你宁愿忘记的真正令人尴尬的人曾经发生过。
It's all gone.
一切都消失了。
The trauma's gone.
创伤已经消失了。
It is just numbers.
这只是数字。
Looking at it this way, the people totally go away.
这么一看，众人彻底散去。
I can't look at a year and think, oh, that was that person, or whatever.
我不能看着一年就想，哦，那就是那个人，或者其他什么。
Because so many of these things on their own, I would normally classify as failures.
由于这些事情太多，我通常将其归类为失败。
They were rejections or something painful.
它们要么是被拒绝，要么是一些痛苦的事情。
But when I look at it in the context of all this, now these are all my scores.
但当我在这一切的背景下看待它时，现在这些都是我的分数。
These are my successes.
这些都是我的成功。
So it's a way to turn things around, I guess.
所以我想这是扭转局面的一种方法。
This is the thing about numbers.
这就是关于数字的事情。
They're easier to deal with than feelings, than the thousand ambiguous and difficult things that happen in life, real life.
它们比感情更容易处理，比现实生活中发生的成千上万的模糊和困难的事情更容易处理。
And so today on our program, we bring you stories of people who have tried to take reality, take emotional situations, take things that never should be expressed in numbers, and render them in numbers.
因此，今天在我们的节目中，我们为您带来一些故事，讲述人们试图接受现实，接受情感情境，接受不应该用数字表达的事物，并用数字来呈现它们。
From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it is This American Life .
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 和国际公共广播电台的节目是《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
On today's program, Act One, the story of one couple who decided to put a corporate annual report about their own relationship.
在今天的节目“第一幕”中，讲述了一对夫妇决定发布一份关于他们自己关系的公司年度报告的故事。
Act Two, Paint by Numbers, two artists who decided what to paint by hiring a polling firm to ask people what they wanted to see in art.
第二幕，按数字绘画，两位艺术家通过聘请民意调查公司询问人们想在艺术中看到什么来决定画什么。
Act Three, When Days are Numbered.
第三幕，时日屈指可数。
Jerry Davidson of Worcester, Massachusetts has been keeping a list of everything he has done since 1955.
马萨诸塞州伍斯特市的杰里·戴维森 (Jerry Davidson) 一直列出他自 1955 年以来所做的一切。
What does not make it onto the list turns out to be a lot bigger than what does.
没有进入列表的东西比进入列表的东西要大得多。
Act Four, The Salesman.
第四幕，推销员。
A Husband tries to market himself to his own wife using all the tools of corporate brand marketing.
丈夫试图使用企业品牌营销的所有工具向自己的妻子推销自己。
Act Five, Break It Down, calculating the cost of love.
第五幕，分解，计算爱的成本。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One.
第一幕。
D.
D .
Travers Scott It was called "Bi-Annual Report on Status of Relationship with Significant Other."
特拉弗斯·斯科特（Travers Scott）这份报告被称为“与重要他人关系状况的双年度报告”。
And so why would any couple choose to analyze their relationship using the tools and graphs and methods of a corporate annual report?
那么，为什么夫妻会选择使用公司年度报告的工具、图表和方法来分析他们的关系呢？
I think because it seemed the most emotionless.
我想是因为它看起来最没有感情。
I mean, it seemed the most opposite of a relationship.
我的意思是，这似乎是最相反的关系。
So once a week, for half a year, Travers Scott and his boyfriend, David Eckard, sat down and separately filled out questionnaires to measure the status of their relationship.
因此，在半年的时间里，特拉弗斯·斯科特和他的男朋友大卫·埃卡德每周一次坐下来，分别填写调查问卷，以衡量他们的关系状况。
They tried to be as scientific as possible.
他们试图尽可能科学。
They had six categories of evaluation: efficiency, feedback, profitability-- which is what they each got out of the relationship-- security, mergers-- which was their jargony word for their sex life-- and loyalty, which in their case meant brand loyalty to the relationship.
他们有六类评估：效率、反馈、盈利能力——这是他们各自从这段关系中得到的东西——安全、合并——这是他们对性生活的行话——以及忠诚度，对他们来说意味着对这段关系的品牌忠诚度。
Yeah, how hemmed in you felt by the relationship.
是的，你对这段关系感到多么的束缚。
Did you fantasize about being single?
你幻想过单身吗？
Did you have sex outside the relationship?
你们在关系之外有过性行为吗？
Things like that.
诸如此类的事情。
Most of the structural things you see applied to relationships are very touchy-feely, escape from intimacy, co-dependency, psychobabble kind of stuff.
你所看到的应用于关系的大多数结构性事物都非常敏感，逃避亲密关系，相互依赖，心理胡言乱语之类的东西。
And I wanted to use something that didn't have that quite Montessori warm, fuzzy, huggy feel to it, but something that was very cold and removed.
我想使用一些没有蒙特梭利那种温暖、模糊、拥抱的感觉的东西，而是一些非常冷和移除的东西。
And so I wanted to take that a step further in applying it to people, and apply it to a relationship, apply something that cold to love and see what would happen.
所以我想更进一步，把它应用到人身上，应用到人际关系上，应用到爱情上，看看会发生什么。
And does that work?
这有效吗？
D.
D .
Travers Scott Oh, no, it's completely futile.
特拉弗斯·斯科特 哦，不，这完全是徒劳的。
It doesn't work at all.
它根本不起作用。
I mean, in all these pieces, we were always trying to apply the most antithetical structures of scientific, masculine, scientific method, hyper-analytical, to the most irrational, chaotic, emotional things in our lives.
我的意思是，在所有这些作品中，我们总是试图将科学、男性、科学方法、超分析的最对立的结构应用于我们生活中最非理性、混乱、情感的事物。
And you're saying it doesn't work?
而且你说这不起作用？
Why?
为什么？
What falls apart?
什么会崩溃？
What do you lose?
你失去了什么？
Because it's chaos.
因为这是混乱的。
It has benefits, but you have to fudge the science a lot.
它有好处，但你必须大量捏造科学。
You're trying to quantify things that are really hard to quantify.
你试图量化那些确实难以量化的事情。
Like one thing that happened was when we were separated, and we were rating the sexual area, some weeks I would give us a really, really high rating because I was thinking about Dave a lot sexually, and I was having all these warm, fuzzy thoughts and everything.
就像发生的一件事是，当我们分开时，我们对性领域进行评分，几周后我会给我们一个非常非常高的评分，因为我在性方面思考了很多戴夫，我有所有这些温暖、模糊的想法和一切。
So I gave it a really high rating.
所以我给了它很高的评价。
Dave gave it a complete zero because we were separated and we weren't having sex, therefore it was a zero.
戴夫给了它一个完整的零，因为我们分开了，我们没有做爱，所以它是一个零。
But it does get you into that problem of, how do you even quantify how much love is occurring between people?
但这确实让你陷入这样的问题：你如何量化人与人之间发生的爱有多少？
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, it was easy with things like the phrase "I love you." I could easily count how many times that happened.
我的意思是，像“我爱你”这样的短语很容易。我可以很容易地数出这样的事情发生了多少次。
But trying to determine exactly what was a non-verbal expression of love.
但试图确定到底什么是爱的非语言表达。
Like, I would count gifts, things like that, but do you count an affectionate look?
比如，我会算礼物之类的东西，但你算深情的眼神吗？
Do you count a punch in the shoulder?
你数过肩膀上挨了一拳吗？
And how would you count something like, OK, you're at dinner and he reaches over and just puts his hand on your hand as you talk and then takes it away a moment later?
你会怎么算，比如，好吧，你在吃晚饭，他在你说话的时候伸出手放在你的手上，过了一会儿又把手拿开？
That would be a debatable non-verbal expression.
这将是一个有争议的非语言表达。
But then, that gets really hard, because if you count every instance of physical expression, is that every single time someone touches you?
但是，这变得非常困难，因为如果你计算每一次身体表达，是每次有人触摸你吗？
How do you determine between, is he squeezing your hand because he loves you so much or is he squeezing your hand because you're saying something really stupid and embarrassing?
你如何判断，他握着你的手是因为他太爱你了，还是他握着你的手是因为你说了一些非常愚蠢和尴尬的事情？
So while you were doing this particular project, did you feel that things just got extremely self-conscious in a way that wasn't perhaps the most desirable outcome?
那么，当你在做这个特定的项目时，你是否觉得事情变得非常不自然，而这可能不是最理想的结果？
It did at first.
一开始确实如此。
In the first few months especially, it was very self-conscious.
特别是在最初的几个月里，它非常不自在。
And I knew Dave was keeping track himself of how many times he was saying "I love you," and things like that.
我知道戴夫自己记录着他说了多少次“我爱你”之类的话。
But after a while, you just forget about it and it just becomes a habit.
但过了一段时间，你就会忘记它，它就成了一种习惯。
Just every day, OK, how many times did this happen, how many times did that happen?
就每天，好吧，这样的事发生了多少次，那样的事发生了多少次？
I had a little notebook stuck in my jacket pocket that I'd whip out like a irritating reporter or something.
我的夹克口袋里塞着一个小笔记本，我会像一个恼人的记者或其他什么人一样把它拿出来。
"You said I love you," and I'd be scribbling it down.
“你说我爱你”，我会潦草地写下来。
And people would kind of glare at me.
人们会瞪着我。
It made me look really, really insecure, I think.
我想这让我看起来非常非常没有安全感。
Yeah, I mean, I've got to say, if I were involved with somebody and I knew that they were counting how many times I said "I love you," I would feel constrained to keep my average up.
是的，我的意思是，我必须说，如果我和某人在一起，并且我知道他们在计算我说“我爱你”的次数，我会感到被迫保持我的平均水平。
Do you think people are unconsciously counting anyway?
你认为人们会无意识地数数吗？
Oh, yeah, I think so.
哦，是的，我想是的。
Especially, in a relationship, I think the longer it goes on, you have that little-- begrudging everything from, I'm always the one that makes the coffee in the morning, to changing the toilet paper roll to, you never spontaneously-- you don't bring me flowers anymore.
特别是，在一段关系中，我认为关系持续得越久，你就拥有的东西就越少——嫉妒一切，从我总是早上煮咖啡的人，到换卫生纸卷，你从不自发地——你不再给我送花了。
I think there's always a tally going on in the back the head, and it helps to let it out, even if it's completely irrational and petty.
我认为大脑深处总是在进行计算，即使它完全不合理且琐碎，将其释放出来也会有所帮助。
[MUSIC -- "YOU DON'T BRING ME FLOWERS" BY BARBRA STREISAND AND NEIL DIAMOND]
[音乐——芭芭拉·史翠珊和尼尔·戴蒙德的《你不给我带来鲜花》]
Ira Glass Travers Scott.
艾拉·格拉斯·特拉弗斯·斯科特。
His latest novel is called One of These Things is Not Like The Other.
他的最新小说名为“其中一件与另一件不同”。
Act Two, Paint by Numbers.
第二幕，按数字绘画。
In today's program, we're looking stories of people using numbers in ways that they just should not, which brings us to Alex Melamid, who's using numbers to make art.
在今天的节目中，我们正在寻找人们以不应该的方式使用数字的故事，这让我们想到了亚历克斯·梅拉米德（Alex Melamid），他正在使用数字来创作艺术。
You need to believe, you know?
你需要相信，知道吗？
And we were raised, or our culture is we tend to believe in numbers.
我们从小到大，或者我们的文化是我们倾向于相信数字。
Numbers are innocent.
数字是无辜的。
They're not involved.
他们没有参与。
They're not engaged.
他们没有订婚。
They don't cheat on us.
他们不会欺骗我们。
They're not politicized, let's say.
可以说，他们没有政治化。
They're just pure, beautiful, and truthful.
他们只是纯洁、美丽、真实。
And so, with that premise, Alex Melamid and his artistic collaborator, Vitaly Komar, commissioned a professional market research firm to survey the public about what they wanted to see in art.
因此，在这个前提下，亚历克斯·梅拉米德和他的艺术合作者维塔利·科马尔委托一家专业市场研究公司对公众进行调查，了解他们希望在艺术中看到什么。
And then they took the data and they used it to paint what the greatest number of people asked for.
然后他们获取数据并用它来描绘最多人要求的东西。
The resulting artwork is a landscape, a hill on the left, a tree on the right, a big lake, blue sky, some deer, a family-- the stats said that audiences wanted to see groups of people in a painting-- and George Washington.
由此产生的艺术作品是一幅风景画，左边是一座山，右边是一棵树，一个大湖，蓝天，一些鹿，一个家庭——统计数据显示观众希望在画中看到一群人——还有乔治·华盛顿。
Because they wanted some political figures.
因为他们想要一些政治人物。
And that was at our discretion, so we decided that who was a better political figure than George Washington for this country?
这由我们自行决定，所以我们决定谁是这个国家比乔治·华盛顿更好的政治人物？
Melamid and Komar did the surveys in 14 countries and made paintings for each one.
梅拉米德和科马尔在 14 个国家进行了调查，并为每个国家绘制了绘画。
First of all, we found out that people like a landscape, and blue is the favorite color of the people.
首先，我们发现人们喜欢风景，而蓝色是人们最喜欢的颜色。
Yeah, I have the statistics in front of me.
是的，我面前有统计数据。
It says 88% of Americans favor outdoor scenes.
报告称，88% 的美国人喜欢户外场景。
44% prefer blue in their paintings.
44% 的人更喜欢画作中的蓝色。
Right.
正确的。
And they like wild animals.
而且他们喜欢野生动物。
They like mountains and water.
他们喜欢山和水。
And this came as a shock.
这令人震惊。
We thought, oh, my god, stupid Americans, what do they want, but then having this poll made in different countries, all the countries, with only one exception, wanted the same, a blue landscape.
我们想，哦，天啊，愚蠢的美国人，他们想要什么，但是当这项民意调查在不同的国家进行时，所有国家，除了一个例外，都想要同样的，一片蓝色风景。
What was the country that didn't want the same?
哪个国家不想要同样的东西？
It was one country, which was Holland, the Netherlands.
那是一个国家，那就是荷兰，荷兰。
And they preferred abstract art to traditional art.
与传统艺术相比，他们更喜欢抽象艺术。
What do you make of that?
你对此有何看法？
Alex Melamid Oh, my god, I wish I'm a philosopher, so I can make something out of that.
亚历克斯·梅拉米德（Alex Melamid）哦，天哪，我希望我是一名哲学家，这样我就可以从中创造出一些东西。
But they live in a very beautiful country, and a museum with full of realists and nice and beautiful art.
但他们生活在一个非常美丽的国家，还有一个充满现实主义者和精美艺术的博物馆。
Maybe they're tired of it.
也许他们已经厌倦了。
Or conduction of blue landscapes.
或者传导蓝色风景。
That may be the explanation.
这可能就是解释。
When you create works of art from polling even when they create movie endings from polling and other things like that, and create ideas for TV shows by polling people, we get a lot of art in various forms that comes from a perception of a market, a perception of what people will buy.
当你通过民意调查创造出艺术作品时，即使他们通过民意调查和其他类似的事情创造出电影结局，并通过对人们进行民意调查来创造电视节目的创意，我们会得到很多不同形式的艺术作品，这些艺术作品来自对市场的看法，对人们会购买什么的看法。
I wonder if it's one of these things where-- creating art this way from polling, you can get competent art, but you're not going to get anything that's really inspiring, anything that really grabs your heart.
我想知道这是否是其中之一——通过民意调查的方式创造艺术，你可以获得有能力的艺术，但你不会得到任何真正鼓舞人心的东西，任何真正抓住你心的东西。
You talk in cliches.
你说的是陈词滥调。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
But it's the other cliche, you know.
但这是另一个陈词滥调，你知道。
We have a cliche of polls and a cliche of heart.
我们有民意调查的陈词滥调和内心的陈词滥调。
In one, of course, it's polling people, asking them constantly, and we don't believe that art can be produced this way, really.
当然，其中之一是对人们进行民意调查，不断地询问他们，我们真的不相信艺术可以通过这种方式产生。
Good art, let's say.
好的艺术，可以说。
But on the other hand, we have this image of this crazy artist with a lot of hair, torturing canvas, whatever.
但另一方面，我们看到了这个疯狂艺术家的形象，他有很多头发，折磨着画布，等等。
As cliche, as utopian, let's say, as the first idea.
作为陈词滥调，作为乌托邦，可以说，作为第一个想法。
So you prefer this cliche to the other cliche.
所以你更喜欢这个陈词滥调而不是其他陈词滥调。
In 1996, Melamid and Komar expanded the work.
1996 年，Melamid 和 Komar 扩大了工作范围。
Teaming up with a musician named Dave Soldier, they surveyed music audiences.
他们与一位名叫戴夫·索尔迪尔的音乐家合作，对音乐听众进行了调查。
Favorite length of song?
最喜欢的歌曲长度？
60% of respondents said 3 to 10 minutes.
60%的受访者表示3到10分钟。
Favorite topic for a song?
最喜欢的歌曲主题？
36% said a story, 32% said love.
36%说的是故事，32%说的是爱情。
Most hated topic for a song?
最讨厌的歌曲主题？
33% said holidays, 10% said religion.
33% 表示假期，10% 表示宗教。
Soldier took the data and produced two songs, one with all the things that people said they most hate in a song-- that is 21 minutes long, that song-- and one with all the qualities that respondents said they wanted most in a song.
Soldier 获取了这些数据并制作了两首歌曲，其中一首包含了人们认为他们最讨厌的一首歌（那首歌长 21 分钟）中的所有内容，而另一首则包含了受访者表示他们最希望一首歌中包含的所有品质。
Dave Soldier joined us in the studio.
戴夫·索尔迪尔 (Dave Soldier) 加入了我们的工作室。
American popular music is almost what people want to hear in the most popular song.
美国流行音乐几乎是人们最想听到的流行歌曲。
If you ask people, what are your favorite instruments, and add up the seven or eight favorite instruments, they are those that are used in conventional radio top-40-type pop music-- guitar, piano, bass drums, synthesizer.
如果你问人们，你最喜欢的乐器是什么，然后把最喜欢的七八种乐器加起来，它们就是传统电台前40种流行音乐中使用的乐器——吉他、钢琴、低音鼓、合成器。
Let's play a little bit of this so people can hear a little bit.
让我们播放一些这样的内容，以便人们能够听到一点。
[MUSIC -- MOST WANTED SONG] Yeah, I mean, that sounds just like any pop song that could be on the radio.
[音乐——最受欢迎的歌曲] 是的，我的意思是，这听起来就像广播中的任何流行歌曲一样。
Well, that's pretty much, apparently, what people wanted.
嗯，显然，这正是人们想要的。
The favorite vocal styles are low male and low female, rock/R&B.
最喜欢的演唱风格是低男声和低女声、摇滚/R&B。
Low male, low female?
男低女低？
Dave Soldier Yeah.
戴夫士兵 是的。
They like low female voices more than they like high female voices.
比起高亢的女声，他们更喜欢低沉的女声。
In fact, the high female voice is the second-least-preferred voice.
事实上，高亢的女声是第二不受欢迎的声音。
The least-preferred voices of all are kid's voices.
最不受欢迎的声音是孩子的声音。
[MUSIC -- MOST WANTED SONG] Ira Glass Dave, can I ask you to talk about the least-popular song?
[音乐——最受欢迎的歌曲] Ira Glass Dave，我可以请你谈谈最不受欢迎的歌曲吗？
What did people hate the most, and what did you have to fit into this song?
人们最讨厌什么？你想在这首歌中融入什么？
There was quite a diversity in hatred.
仇恨有很大的多样性。
There were a lot of hated instruments.
有很多令人讨厌的乐器。
They're all personal favorites of mine, of course.
当然，它们都是我个人的最爱。
The bagpipe, the accordion, the harp, the organ, the banjo, the tuba, for instance.
例如风笛、手风琴、竖琴、风琴、班卓琴、大号。
We had to make sure that all of those were in there.
我们必须确保所有这些都在那里。
And when it comes to most unwanted vocal styles, you found opera and rap were the two most unwanted vocal styles.
当谈到最不受欢迎的声音风格时，你发现歌剧和说唱是两种最不受欢迎的声音风格。
And so what you did is that, in this song that you put together, you have an opera singer rapping.
所以你所做的是，在你组合的这首歌中，有一位歌剧歌手在说唱。
[MUSIC -- LEAST WANTED SONG] Dave Soldier You see, if only 10% of people like opera and only 10% of people like rap, and say these two categories don't overlap very well, that means that if you put both of them in there, only 1% of people will be left who can still listen to the piece.
[音乐——最不受欢迎的歌曲] Dave Soldier 你看，如果只有 10% 的人喜欢歌剧，只有 10% 的人喜欢说唱，并且说这两个类别重叠得不太好，那就意味着如果你把它们都放在那里，那么就只剩下 1% 的人还能听这首曲子了。
So we put everything in there that people don't like.
所以我们把人们不喜欢的一切都放在那里。
For instance, some people detest cowboy music.
例如，有些人讨厌牛仔音乐。
So we have the opera singer singing rap about cowboys.
所以我们有歌剧歌手唱关于牛仔的说唱。
[MUSIC -- LEAST WANTED SONG] People tend to like moderate tempos-- that is, the speed of the music, how fast it sounds.
[音乐——最不受欢迎的歌曲] 人们往往喜欢中等节奏——即音乐的速度，听起来有多快。
So we're sure that we're going to have something that people really dislike if it, say, features a bagpipe, an opera singer singing about cowboys, and a children's choir sung very, very slowly.
因此，我们确信我们会推出一些人们真正不喜欢的东西，例如，以风笛、歌剧歌手演唱牛仔、以及儿童合唱团唱得非常非常缓慢的方式。
[MUSIC -- LEAST WANTED SONG] Ira Glass Can I ask the two of you-- can you listen to either of these songs in your own home?
[音乐 - 最不受欢迎的歌曲] Ira Glass 我可以问你们两个 - 你们可以在自己家里听这两首歌吗？
Well, actually I've grown to love both of them.
好吧，实际上我已经爱上他们俩了。
I feel kind of guilty.
我感到有点内疚。
You know, I got a lot of people who said they really love this music.
你知道，很多人都说他们真的很喜欢这种音乐。
And musicians, in particular, will call me and say, I just heard the new record.
尤其是音乐家，他们会打电话给我说，我刚刚听到了新唱片。
I fell asleep during the most favorite and I loved the least favorite.
我在最喜欢的时候睡着了，在最不喜欢的时候睡着了。
Yeah, I kind of love the least favorite too.
是的，我也喜欢最不喜欢的。
Why do you think we're all going for the least favorite?
你认为为什么我们都会选择最不受欢迎的人？
Because it's a minority.
因为它是少数。
The least favorite is the least favorite.
最不喜欢的就是最不喜欢的。
It's not hated music.
这不是讨厌的音乐。
It's just a small percentage of people [INTERPOSING VOICES]
这只是一小部分人[插入声音]
I guess the obvious thing is we like to think of ourselves as being in this elite category.
我想显而易见的是我们喜欢将自己视为精英类别。
That is not why we like that song.
这不是我们喜欢这首歌的原因。
We don't like because we think of ourselves as being-- we don't like the children's choir coming in because we thinks of ourselves as a cultural elite.
我们不喜欢，因为我们认为自己是——我们不喜欢儿童合唱团进来，因为我们认为自己是文化精英。
Because it's done by the poll and polls are always right.
因为这是通过民意调查完成的，而民意调查总是正确的。
That is not why we love it.
这不是我们喜欢它的原因。
[MUSIC -- LEAST WANTED SONG]
[音乐——最不受欢迎的歌曲]
Here's the whole thing, Alex and Dave, is that in your attempt to just go straight by the numbers, what you've done is you've accidentally ended up with the lonely genius creating a real work of art.
亚历克斯和戴夫，整个事情是这样的，在你们试图直接看数字的过程中，你们所做的只是不小心让孤独的天才创造了一件真正的艺术作品。
You've actually stumbled into the other model.
您实际上已经偶然发现了另一种模型。
Alex?
亚历克斯？
Alex Melamid Accidentally maybe.
亚历克斯·梅拉米德 也许是偶然。
No accidentally, not accidentally, incidentally, but we get it.
不是偶然的，不是偶然的，偶然的，但我们明白了。
But then we owe our genius to the people, just like all geniuses.
但我们的天才归功于人民，就像所有天才一样。
We're finding what's in our culture and channeling the people's will.
我们正在寻找我们文化中的内容并引导人们的意愿。
[MUSIC -- LEAST WANTED SONG] Ira Glass Do you think that there are some things that should just stay unquantified, some things we should not try to put into numbers?
[音乐 - 最不受欢迎的歌曲] Ira Glass 您是否认为有些事情应该保持不量化，有些事情我们不应该尝试用数字表示？
You know, we have to have a criteria at any expense.
你知道，我们必须不惜一切代价制定一个标准。
If numbers, let it be numbers.
如果是数字，就让它是数字。
But we need to know.
但我们需要知道。
We need to have a conviction.
我们需要有一个信念。
We need to have a common belief among all of us, a common faith.
我们所有人之间需要有一个共同的信念，一个共同的信仰。
And right now, the common faith is in numbers, and let it be this way.
现在，共同的信念是数字，就这样吧。
[MUSIC -- LEAST WANTED SONG] Act Three: When Days Are Numbered Ira Glass Act Three, When Days are Numbered.
[音乐 - 最不受欢迎的歌曲] 第三幕：当日子屈指可数 Ira Glass 第三幕，当日子屈指可数。
By describing some things in numbers, in data, it usually means that there are other things that we are choosing not to quantify and not to look at at all.
通过用数字、数据来描述某些事物，通常意味着我们选择不量化或根本不关注其他事物。
Adam Davidson is an economics correspondent for NPR.
亚当·戴维森 (Adam Davidson) 是 NPR 的经济记者。
He co-reports some of the economic coverage we do here on our show, and does the Planet Money podcast.
他在节目中共同报道了我们的一些经济报道，并制作了 Planet Money 播客。
But years ago, he did a story for us about his uncle Jerry.
但几年前，他为我们讲了一个关于他叔叔杰瑞的故事。
His uncle Jerry spends a lot of time gathering data and putting it into lists-- a list of sports scores going back decades, a list of all the people he has ever telephoned, a list of all the sales at the pharmacy he works at since he began working there.
他的叔叔杰瑞花了很多时间收集数据并将其放入清单中——几十年前的体育比赛成绩清单、他曾经打过电话的所有人的清单、自从他开始工作以来他工作的药房的所有销售人员的清单。
A list of all the lists.
所有列表的列表。
And then one list, the list that he values more than any other list, the list documenting his daily life.
然后是一张清单，他比任何其他清单都更看重的清单，记录他日常生活的清单。
Here's Adam.
这是亚当。
My uncle Jerry's lists are something I've heard about my whole life, and I finally decided to find out what they're all about and to get to know him better.
我叔叔杰瑞的清单是我一生都听说过的东西，我最终决定找出它们的全部内容并更好地了解他。
Jerry's always been quiet.
杰瑞一向很安静。
He lives alone right near where he grew up, my dad's baby brother, in Worcester, Massachusetts.
他独自一人住在马萨诸塞州伍斯特他长大的地方，我父亲的小弟弟附近。
He's 52.
他52岁了。
He gets a monthly SSI check and he has a two-day-a-week job at a big CVS pharmacy.
他每月都会收到 SSI 支票，并且在一家大型 CVS 药房每周工作两天。
He told me that he's written down everything he's done, every day, since 1955 when he was 10 years old.
他告诉我，从 1955 年他 10 岁起，他每天都写下自己所做的一切。
My brother Jack told me Sunday, he said, remember, I told you years ago them lists were going to be worth nothing?
我哥哥杰克周日告诉我，他说，记住，我几年前就告诉过你，这些清单将一文不值？
I told him a thing.
我告诉他一件事。
I said, look, I don't know what this is going to come to, but something's going to come out of this.
我说，听着，我不知道这会带来什么结果，但是会产生一些结果。
I have this funny feeling.
我有这种有趣的感觉。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It looks something good.
看起来不错。
It's going to make me happy.
这会让我很高兴。
I know that.
我知道。
It's going to make me very, very, very happy.
这会让我非常非常非常高兴。
I know that.
我知道。
Jerry always carries a scrap of paper in his shirt pocket or in his wallet, and he writes down everywhere he goes and everyone he talks to on the phone over the course of the day.
杰瑞总是在衬衫口袋或钱包里放一张纸片，他会写下他一天中所到之处以及通过电话交谈的每个人。
At the end of the day, he takes everything he's written on the scrap paper and copies it onto one of those desk calendars where each day has its own page and the whole year sits on a little plastic stand with two narrow metal rings in the middle.
一天结束时，他把写在废纸上的所有内容复制到其中一个台历上，每一天都有自己的一页，全年都放在一个小塑料架上，中间有两个狭窄的金属环。
He checks and re-checks every item.
他检查并重新检查每一项。
Only when he knows everything was copied properly does he put a check or an OK at the bottom of the desk calendar page.
只有当他知道所有内容都已正确复制时，他才会在台历页面底部打勾或单击“确定”。
Once he's done that, right before he goes to sleep, that day is complete.
一旦他完成了这件事，就在他睡觉之前，这一天就结束了。
This is yesterday.
这是昨天的事了。
Adam Davidson That's sitting on the TV?
亚当·戴维森 那是坐在电视上吗？
Yes, sitting on my television.
是的，坐在我的电视上。
That's what I did all day yesterday.
这就是我昨天一整天所做的事情。
Wow, that's a long day.
哇，真是漫长的一天。
Jerry Davidson Yeah, it sure was.
杰里·戴维森 是的，确实如此。
Saturday, December 13, 1997.
1997 年 12 月 13 日，星期六。
Sunny and cold.
阳光明媚又寒冷。
Honey Farms checked twice.
蜂蜜农场检查了两次。
Marie call Jerry and Sheryl twice.
玛丽给杰瑞和谢丽尔打了两次电话。
Check once.
检查一次。
Cambridge eye doctors, check.
剑桥眼科医生，检查一下。
Walgreens, Lincoln Street--
沃尔格林，林肯街——
The check marks indicate how many times he's done something.
复选标记表示他做了某件事的次数。
Every event gets at least one check, so if he goes to the store five times, that's five checks.
每个事件都至少得到一张支票，所以如果他去商店五次，那就是五张支票。
Every event gets its own line, and each day's list is about eight or nine lines long.
每个事件都有自己的行，每天的列表大约有八九行长。
One of the strange things about the list is that he always refers to himself in the third person.
这份名单的奇怪之处之一是他总是以第三人称提及自己。
He writes Jerry, or his initials, JD.
他写下杰里（Jerry），或者他名字的首字母缩写，JD。
The words I or me never appear anywhere in these diaries.
“我”或“我”这些词从未出现在这些日记中。
And he's got this elaborate code.
他有这个复杂的代码。
See, I put a star on the top of the thing.
看，我在东西的顶部放了一颗星星。
That means I had a great day.
这意味着我度过了美好的一天。
Plus I write in different color pens.
另外我用不同颜色的笔写字。
Sometimes I write in black, and sometimes I write in blue.
有时我用黑色写字，有时我用蓝色写字。
Blue means I'm very happy.
蓝色意味着我很高兴。
Red means a semi-good day.
红色意味着半美好的一天。
Black means it's a bad day.
黑色意味着今天是糟糕的一天。
Not a very bad day, but just a bad day.
不是非常糟糕的一天，但只是糟糕的一天。
In the pages we looked at, some days would have two or three blue items and the rest would be black.
在我们查看的页面中，有时会有两到三个蓝色项目，其余的都是黑色的。
Other days, everything in the morning was black, while the afternoon was better-- it had the red and the blue.
其他日子，早上一切都是黑色的，而下午则更好——有红色和蓝色。
The thing is, even after he explained all of these codes and pen colors, I couldn't understand the diaries at all.
问题是，即使他解释了所有这些代码和笔的颜色，我仍然无法理解这些日记。
No one could except for Jerry.
除了杰瑞，没有人能做到。
He uses his own abbreviations.
他使用自己的缩写。
See, it says HFPLOT.
看，上面写着 HFPLOT。
I went to Honey Farms, Pleasant.
我去了蜂蜜农场，很愉快。
And I was in the lot.
我就在停车场里。
PAS.
PAS。
That's Phyllis Ashland's sister's house.
那是菲利斯·阿什兰姐姐的房子。
Let's see.
让我们来看看。
S means sex.
S代表性别。
Or S-X, I put sometimes.
或者S-X，我有时会这么说。
[PHONE RINGS] Hello?
[电话铃声]喂？
Hey.
嘿。
Doing what?
做什么？
Jerry's girlfriend Sheryl called and they talked for a long time.
杰瑞的女朋友谢丽尔打来电话，他们聊了很长时间。
Did you sleep good last night?
昨晚你睡得好吗？
Lucky you.
幸运的你。
I didn't sleep at all.
我根本没睡。
Nope, getting very lonely.
不行，越来越孤独了。
Do you care?
你关心吗？
I'm just kidding with you.
我只是和你开玩笑。
Are we going to be hanging together tonight?
今晚我们要一起去吗？
I want to be with you, stupid.
我想和你在一起，傻瓜。
Jesus.
耶稣。
The only thing I want to be.
我唯一想成为的人。
All right.
好的。
Yes, dear.
是的亲爱的。
Bye.
再见。
Sheryl, Sheryl, Sheryl, Sheryl.
谢丽尔，谢丽尔，谢丽尔，谢丽尔。
What are you doing now?
你在干什么？
Jerry Davidson I just put another check.
杰里·戴维森 我刚刚又开了一张支票。
That's two checks for her.
这对她来说是两张支票。
See, that to me is so funny, that you just had this really emotional conversation with her and all you did was put another check next to her name.
你看，这对我来说太有趣了，你刚刚和她进行了一次非常情绪化的对话，而你所做的只是在她的名字旁边放了另一张支票。
Yeah, because I keep it all in here, what she says to me.
是的，因为我把她对我说的话全部都保存在这里。
Jerry said he doesn't like to write about his feelings.
杰瑞说他不喜欢写下自己的感受。
That's why he just put a check.
这就是为什么他只是开了一张支票。
He doesn't want to write how he felt about talking to Sheryl or anyone else.
他不想写下他与谢丽尔或其他人交谈时的感受。
He said it's nobody's business.
他说这不关任何人的事。
Of course, that's the most interesting part.
当然，这是最有趣的部分。
That's exactly what I wanted to know.
这正是我想知道的。
Why was one phone call from Cheryl written in black, while another was in blue, and what happened that one day a McDonald's that made him put it down in red?
为什么谢丽尔打来的一个电话是黑色的，而另一个电话是蓝色的，而有一天，发生了什么事，一家麦当劳让他把它写成了红色？
My family doesn't understand Jerry's lists.
我的家人不明白杰里的清单。
We tease him about them.
我们拿这些来取笑他。
At Thanksgiving, Jerry had this big box with hundreds of pens, blue, black, red.
感恩节的时候，杰瑞有一个大盒子，里面有数百支钢笔，蓝色的、黑色的、红色的。
My dad said, Jerry, why not just keep a few of them and throw the rest away.
我爸爸说，杰瑞，为什么不只保留其中一些，然后把剩下的扔掉呢。
Jerry got angry.
杰瑞生气了。
he said he'd saved those pens his whole life, and he needed them for his list.
他说他一生都保存着这些钢笔，他需要它们作为他的清单。
It's like a hobby, but everybody says it's stupid.
这就像一种爱好，但每个人都说这是愚蠢的。
But I don't think it's stupid.
但我不认为这是愚蠢的。
How did you start doing these lists?
您是如何开始制作这些清单的？
Do you remember when you started?
你还记得你什么时候开始的吗？
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
I don't know.
我不知道。
My father maybe got me into it, because he used to write down things too, when he had appointments.
也许是我父亲让我参与其中的，因为当他有约会时，他也会写下一些东西。
He thinks it's a waste of time.
他认为这是浪费时间。
He says, why do you write down everything?
他说，你为什么要写下一切？
And I said, well, I just like to.
我说，好吧，我只是喜欢。
You write down appointments when you have business meetings, don't you?
当你有商务会议时，你会写下约会，不是吗？
He said, yeah, but I'm a businessman.
他说，是的，但我是一个商人。
You're not.
你不。
[PHONE RINGS] Can you pause that for a second?
[电话铃声] 你能暂停一下吗？
It was Sheryl again.
又是谢丽尔。
When Jerry hung up, he took out his scrap paper and put another check next to her name.
杰瑞挂断电话后，拿出便条纸，在她的名字旁边贴了另一张支票。
When we were talking, Jerry said to me, I hate the past.
当我们谈话时，杰瑞对我说，我讨厌过去。
But in fact he's surrounded himself with the past.
但事实上，他已经被过去包围了。
When you walk in his apartment, it's crammed with stuff.
当你走进他的公寓时，里面堆满了东西。
There are piles of newspapers all over the place that he uses to keep track of his sports scores, dozens of boxes of papers, old clothes, his children's toys from the '70s, store receipts from years ago, memos from jobs he's long since left.
到处都是成堆的报纸，他用来记录自己的体育成绩，还有几十箱报纸、旧衣服、70年代的孩子玩具、多年前的商店收据、他早已离职的工作备忘录。
He keeps the answering machine cassettes with every message he's ever gotten.
他将收到的每条消息都保存在答录机录音带中。
His history is around him all the time.
他的历史一直围绕着他。
I don't think anybody else could survive what I went through a lot.
我认为没有人能够承受我所经历的很多事情。
Divorces, losing my kids, two marriages.
离婚，失去孩子，两次婚姻。
I thought that was the end of my world when I finally got divorced.
当我最终离婚时，我以为这就是我的世界末日。
That is hard.
那很难。
I think that is worse than a death to go through.
我认为这比死亡更糟糕。
It is.
这是。
It is hard.
这很难。
You never went through it, but it's hard.
你从来没有经历过，但这很难。
It's hard.
这很难。
It's just a weird thing when you go to court for a divorce.
当你去法院要求离婚时，这是一件很奇怪的事情。
The wife says everything of what she says.
妻子说的都是她说的。
Then she leaves the room.
然后她离开了房间。
Then you say everything that you want to say.
然后你就说出你想说的一切。
And the judge called both of us back and he says, granted.
法官把我们俩叫了回来，他说，同意。
But I had nobody there to fall back onto when I get divorced.
但当我离婚时，我没有人可以依靠。
That really bothered me today.
今天这真的让我很困扰。
The day I got divorced in my two divorces, I just had nobody there for me.
在我两次离婚的那天，我身边没有人陪伴我。
I just came home and slept.
我刚回到家就睡了。
On the phone, you were saying that you've wanted to tell your father-- you said, I could have been somebody because of these lists.
在电话里，你说你想告诉你的父亲——你说，因为这些名单，我本来可以成为某个人。
What did you mean by that?
你这是什么意思？
My life story.
我的人生故事。
Mostly my life story is what I did.
我的人生故事主要是我所做的事情。
It's like the diary of Anne Frank.
这就像安妮·弗兰克的日记。
Mine would be the diary of Jerry.
我的日记是杰瑞的日记。
Why do you think people like reading the diary of Anne Frank?
你认为人们为什么喜欢读安妮·弗兰克的日记？
Well, it's interesting, because she wrote different things about what she did in her life and all that.
嗯，这很有趣，因为她写了关于她一生中所做的事情的不同内容。
It'd be just like my story.
这就像我的故事一样。
But I think mine would be the best-seller, because I had more interesting things to do with my life.
但我认为我的书会是最畅销的，因为我的生活中有更多有趣的事情要做。
I went to the zoo, to California, everything.
我去了动物园、加州，什么都去了。
England, I went to England.
英国，我去了英国。
I went everywhere.
我到处都去了。
I came a long way, really.
我真的走了很长的路。
I came a long way.
我走了很长一段路。
And I'm just a survivor.
而我只是一个幸存者。
Your father used to say, that's all I am.
你父亲常说，我就是这样。
A survivor.
一个幸存者。
I live by myself.
我一个人住。
Let's see, what is it?
让我们看看，它是什么？
19 years already.
已经19年了。
Didn't have a wife or nothing, for 19 years.
19年来，没有妻子，什么也没有。
I survive out there anyway.
无论如何，我在外面活下来了。
I don't think Jerry would put it this way, but when I look at his lists, I think he does them because they give him something to do every day.
我不认为杰里会这样说，但当我查看他的清单时，我认为他这样做是因为这些清单让他每天都有事可做。
And then seeing every day written down like that, page after page in perfect order, his life seems less empty, less lonely.
然后看到每一天都被这样一页又一页地写下来，秩序井然，他的生活似乎不再那么空虚，不再那么孤独。
The lists prove he's spent time with people who care about him, and he's been places, and he's done things.
这些清单证明他曾与关心他的人共度时光，他曾去过一些地方，也做过一些事情。
Holy mackerel.
圣鲭鱼。
It's like a blizzard.
就像暴风雪一样。
Can you believe that?
你能相信吗？
It's snowing like heck down here.
这里下雪了。
I don't believe this.
我不相信这个。
See, I have to write that down in the book, say it snowed.
看，我得把它写在书上，说下雪了。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
Coming up, applying numbers to love with incredible success.
即将到来，应用数字去爱并取得令人难以置信的成功。
That's in a minute from Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme, and invite a variety of writers and performers and reporters to take a whack at that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，并邀请各种作家、表演者和记者来探讨这个主题。
Today's program, using numbers where they should not be used.
今天的程序，在不应该使用的地方使用了数字。
We've arrived at Act Four of our program, The Salesman.
我们已经到了节目《推销员》的第四幕。
Will Powers works for a marketing firm called Brand Solutions in Seattle.
威尔·鲍尔斯在西雅图一家名为 Brand Solutions 的营销公司工作。
And his boss wanted everybody in the firm to understand better the principles of brand loyalty and how to achieve it.
他的老板希望公司里的每个人都能更好地理解品牌忠诚度的原则以及如何实现它。
And so the boss had Will and the other staffers do this exercise where they had to market themselves to someone they knew, using all the tools of modern brand marketing.
因此，老板让威尔和其他员工进行这项练习，他们必须使用现代品牌营销的所有工具向他们认识的人推销自己。
Will chose his wife.
威尔选择了他的妻子。
You know, really, why not my wife?
你真的知道，为什么不是我的妻子呢？
She's probably the closest person to me, and I think, as you'll see later on, as I discuss, it was a great opportunity to learn a little bit more about that customer.
她可能是离我最近的人，我认为，正如我稍后讨论的那样，这是一个很好的机会，可以更多地了解该客户。
It's so strange to hear you say that word
听到你说这个词真是太奇怪了
I know.
我知道。
It is funny.
这很有趣。
But it's really interesting-- obviously, I don't think of my wife as a customer.
但这真的很有趣——显然，我不认为我的妻子是顾客。
I dated my wife since we were 15, and we went to the same college, and we got married right after college, and we've been married for five years.
我从15岁起就和我妻子约会了，我们上同一所大学，大学毕业后我们就结婚了，我们已经结婚五年了。
And when I went home to do this exercise with her, I was like, oh, there's nothing she's going to tell me that I don't know.
当我回家和她一起做这个练习时，我想，哦，她不会告诉我我不知道的事情。
I know her inside and out.
我对她了如指掌。
All right, well, let's talk about the process you went through.
好吧，我们来说说你经历的过程吧。
I had my wife come up with her attributes and what's important to her within the product.
我让我的妻子提出了她的属性以及产品中对她来说重要的内容。
This is what she's looking for in her husband.
这就是她在丈夫身上寻找的东西。
Exactly.
确切地。
She came up with honest, funny, forgiving, patient, understanding, strong, protective, empathetic, loving, and gentle.
她提出了诚实、有趣、宽容、耐心、理解、坚强、保护性、同理心、爱心和温柔。
And really, to take it the next step further, I said, well, these are really great attributes, but tell me how I can act upon these.
事实上，为了更进一步，我说，好吧，这些确实是很棒的属性，但请告诉我如何根据这些采取行动。
How can I, the organization providing the service, please you?
作为提供服务的组织，我该如何做才能让您满意？
And it's really saying, where can I find ways to better provide the service to you?
这实际上是在说，我在哪里可以找到更好地为您提供服务的方法？
Now, if you actually working with a real firm that was really selling a product, this would be more or less the equivalent of focus-grouping the customers.
现在，如果您实际上与一家真正销售产品的公司合作，这或多或少相当于对客户进行焦点分组。
Exactly.
确切地。
Exactly.
确切地。
Ira Glass You'd get a bunch of customers.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：你会吸引很多顾客。
You'd get them into a room.
你会把他们带进一个房间。
You'd focus-group them on what is it that they really want from the company.
你可以将他们集中讨论他们真正想从公司得到什么。
Exactly.
确切地。
That's exactly right.
完全正确。
Me, being the product, how can I show you that I'm loving and gentle and understanding and empathetic, et cetera.
我，作为产品，如何向你展示我是有爱的、温柔的、理解的、有同理心的，等等。
What would be a way that I could follow through on these?
我可以采取什么方式来完成这些？
So she actually gave me examples.
所以她实际上给了我例子。
You know, when you hold my hand, you make me laugh, to take time out of the day to make sure I'm happy and OK, hang up your clothes after a business trip, try to stay healthy, work hard, work for our future, work at our relationship, examples like that.
你知道，当你握着我的手时，你让我开怀大笑，从一天中抽出时间来确保我快乐和美好，出差后挂起你的衣服，努力保持健康，努力工作，为我们的未来而努力，为我们的关系而努力，诸如此类的例子。
So what I said-- and this what we usually do in organizations.
这就是我所说的——这也是我们在组织中通常所做的。
We do a brand ladder.
我们做品牌阶梯。
An example would be, we work with some major restaurant chains.
一个例子是，我们与一些主要的连锁餐厅合作。
And they might list something like, it's clean.
他们可能会列出诸如“它很干净”之类的东西。
And that's a very functional attribute.
这是一个非常实用的属性。
Well, OK, if they're concentrating on that and it's clean, how does that make you feel?
好吧，如果他们专注于这一点并且它很干净，你感觉如何？
Well, that makes me feel comfortable at the restaurant.
嗯，这让我在餐厅感觉很舒服。
OK, when you're comfortable at the restaurant, how does that make you feel?
好的，当您在餐厅感到舒适时，您感觉如何？
Well, it makes me feel that I can forget my problems.
嗯，这让我觉得我可以忘记我的问题。
Well, then when you forget your problems, how does that make you feel?
好吧，那么当你忘记了你的问题时，你感觉如何？
Well, then I can concentrate on other aspects of my life, like my children.
好吧，然后我就可以专注于生活的其他方面，比如我的孩子。
So we go from very small and functional, from clean, to concentrating on children and full fulfillment.
因此，我们从规模很小、功能齐全、干净整洁，到专注于儿童和充分满足。
What I said is, if it works for an organization, once again, why couldn't it work for me selling my product?
我想说的是，如果它对一个组织有效，那么为什么它不能对我销售我的产品有效呢？
So after my wife listed her examples, I pulled one out, and I said, OK, Laura.
所以在我妻子列出了她的例子后，我拿出了一个，我说，好吧，劳拉。
Well, picking out my clothes, let's say, when I come home and I throw my garment bag on the bed and I'm supposed to hang up my clothes-- sometimes I don't.
嗯，挑选衣服，比方说，当我回到家，我把衣服袋扔到床上，我应该把衣服挂起来——有时我不会。
I just dump it out and usually I'm exhausted.
我只是把它倒掉，通常我已经筋疲力尽了。
But I said, let's just start with that.
但我说，我们就从这个开始吧。
Let's say, if I pick up my clothes, what does that do for you?
比方说，如果我拿起我的衣服，这对你有什么作用？
What is that going to give you?
那会给你什么？
And she goes well, really, what that does for me is that confirms teamwork, that we're a partnership in this relationship.
她进展顺利，真的，这对我来说是确认团队合作，我们是这种关系中的合作伙伴。
And I said, OK, that's great.
我说，好吧，那太好了。
And knowing that we're a team, how does that make you feel?
知道我们是一个团队，你感觉如何？
Or what does that give you?
或者这给了你什么？
And she goes, well, when I know I'm a team and you're helping me out and we're really working as a team together, that leads to a strong relationship.
她说，好吧，当我知道我是一个团队并且你在帮助我并且我们真正作为一个团队一起工作时，这会带来牢固的关系。
It makes her feel like she has a strong relationship.
这让她感觉自己的关系很牢固。
Yeah, exactly, in that she can rely on me.
是的，没错，因为她可以依靠我。
And I said, well, that's fantastic.
我说，嗯，那太棒了。
What do you when you have a strong relationship?
当你有牢固的关系时你会做什么？
How does that make you feel?
这让你感觉如何？
And she goes, well, that is total love and total reassurance.
她说，好吧，那就是完全的爱和完全的保证。
And I said, wow, that's really great.
我说，哇，那真是太棒了。
So I went from something very simple, as picking up clothes from my garment bag when I come home from a business trip, very functional, to total love and strength.
所以我从非常简单的事情，比如出差回家时从衣服袋里拿起衣服，非常实用，到完全的爱和力量。
And another example was calling me.
另一个例子是打电话给我。
And I'm usually pretty good about that when I travel, or even when I'm at work, calling her.
当我旅行时，甚至当我在工作时，给她打电话时，我通常都很擅长这一点。
You used to call her during the day, during the work day?
你曾经在白天、工作日给她打电话吗？
Yeah, just to see how she's doing and stuff.
是的，只是想看看她过得怎么样。
And maybe some days I would forget or I'd be busy.
也许有一天我会忘记或者我会很忙。
But now I make it a point, because obviously she's a customer and she's viewing my product-- that's important to her.
但现在我强调这一点，因为显然她是客户并且她正在查看我的产品 - 这对她很重要。
And as a customer, I know I'm going to satisfy her that way.
作为一名顾客，我知道我会通过这种方式让她满意。
The same with coming home and hanging up the garment bag and the clothes within it.
回家后挂起衣袋和里面的衣服也是如此。
You know what really strikes me as you talk about this, one of the things about it that I think is interesting, is it makes you really think about how often do any of us go to the people in our lives and ask, are you getting from me what you want?
你知道，当你谈论这个问题时，真正让我印象深刻的是，我认为有趣的一件事是，它让你真正思考我们中的任何一个人是否经常向我们生活中的人询问，你从我这里得到了你想要的东西吗？
Exactly.
确切地。
And really, in a nutshell, that's exactly what this accomplished.
事实上，简而言之，这正是我们所取得的成就。
Are you satisfied with the product?
您对产品满意吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Before you actually went through this process with her, had she always-- she would say every now and then, you shouldn't leave your stuff, your garment bag, you shouldn't just leave it sitting around, I want you to pick it up.
在你真正和她一起经历这个过程之前，她是否总是——她会时不时地说，你不应该留下你的东西，你的衣服袋，你不应该把它放在一边，我希望你把它捡起来。
I mean, she had said this before?
我的意思是，她以前说过这样的话吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Obviously, these aren't really big earth-shattering--
显然，这些并不是什么惊天动地的大事——
No, I know.
不，我知道。
But to me, that's the interesting thing.
但对我来说，这才是有趣的事情。
Why was it so different doing it in this context?
为什么在这种情况下这样做会有如此不同？
Why is it in this context you got the message, whereas before you didn't?
为什么在这种情况下你收到了消息，而之前却没有？
Well, I think in the past I've come home and it's always been just something kind of under the breath of, you know, I would appreciate if you would have called me, or something to that effect.
嗯，我想过去我回家时总是有一种隐秘的感觉，你知道，如果你能给我打电话，或者类似的事情，我会很感激。
And I'm like, oh, yeah, OK, next time I promise I'll try to remember.
我想，哦，是的，好吧，下次我保证我会尽力记住。
But I think the reason why this was so powerful is we actually sat down across from each other, and it was just us, totally focused on each other.
但我认为这如此强大的原因是我们实际上面对面坐下来，只有我们，完全专注于彼此。
There was no other distractions.
没有其他干扰。
And she actually wrote it down.
她真的把它写下来了。
This is what's important to me.
这对我来说很重要。
It's almost very elementary, spelling it out.
这几乎是非常基本的，拼写出来。
You know what it's almost like?
你知道那几乎是什么样子吗？
There's the way that women talk about certain emotional issues and there's the way that men talk about certain emotional issues, and what you and your wife sort of invented was a guy's way to talk about stuff that women normally want to talk about.
有女人谈论某些情感问题的方式，也有男人谈论某些情感问题的方式，而你和你的妻子发明的是男人谈论女人通常想谈论的事情的方式。
Yeah.
是的。
That's a good point.
这是一个很好的观点。
Ira Glass It's like she spoke to you in guy language.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：就像她用男性语言跟你说话一样。
I guess so.
大概吧。
Because of my understanding of the organizational identity model, and because I could put it in business terms-- maybe you're right.
因为我对组织身份模型的理解，并且因为我可以用商业术语来表达它——也许你是对的。
Maybe that's how I connected with it and the light bulb went on.
也许这就是我与它连接的方式，然后灯泡就亮了。
It's funny, because I think there are certain things about our own lives that we are hesitant to quantify.
这很有趣，因为我认为我们自己的生活中有些事情我们不愿意量化。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
And what you've done essentially in this example is that you've really tried to quantify-- what could be more delicate than a person's relationship in a marriage.
在这个例子中，你所做的本质上是你真的试图量化——还有什么比婚姻中的人与人之间的关系更微妙的。
Well, like I said, I wanted to do this with my wife, because my wife is the most important person in the world to me.
嗯，就像我说的，我想和我的妻子一起做这件事，因为我的妻子对我来说是世界上最重要的人。
And I place my wife above anything else.
我把我的妻子看得高于一切。
And she is the number-one customer in my organization.
她是我组织中的第一大客户。
And I have to make sure that she's 100% satisfied and happy with the product.
我必须确保她对产品 100% 满意和满意。
[MUSIC -- "ANYWAY YOU WANT ME" BY ELVIS PRESLEY]
[音乐——猫王埃尔维斯·普雷斯利的《Anyway You Want Me》]
Act Five, Break It Down.
第五幕，分解。
We end our program today with this attempt to quantify what love is, a short story by Lydia Davis, read by Matt Malloy.
我们今天以试图量化什么是爱来结束我们的节目，这是莉迪亚·戴维斯（Lydia Davis）的短篇小说，马特·马洛伊（Matt Malloy）朗读。
A quick warning to listeners before we begin.
在我们开始之前向听众发出一个快速警告。
This story mentions the existence of sex.
这个故事提到了性的存在。
Nothing very explicit, but the fact that it does exist.
没有什么非常明确的，但它确实存在的事实。
He's sitting there staring at a piece of paper in front of him.
他坐在那里，盯着面前的一张纸。
He's trying to break it down.
他正试图打破它。
He says, I'm breaking it all down.
他说，我正在打破这一切。
The ticket was $600.
票价是600美元。
And after that there was more for the hotel and food and so on, for just 10 days.
之后还有更多的酒店和食物等等，仅仅10天。
Say, $80 a day.
比如说，每天 80 美元。
No, more like $100 a day.
不，大约每天 100 美元。
And we made love, say, once a day.
我们每天做爱一次。
On the average, that's $100 a shot.
平均来说，每次注射要 100 美元。
And each time it lasted maybe two or three hours, so that would be anywhere from $33 to $50 an hour, which is expensive.
每次可能会持续两到三个小时，所以每小时费用为 33 到 50 美元，这很昂贵。
Though, of course, that wasn't all that went on, because we were together almost all day long.
当然，这并不是全部，因为我们几乎整天都在一起。
And she would keep looking at me, and every time she looked at me, that was worth something.
她会一直看着我，每次她看着我，那都是值得的。
And she smiled at me, and didn't stop talking and singing.
她对我微笑，并没有停止说话和唱歌。
Something I said, she would sail into it, a snatch, for me.
我说了些什么，她就会为我而航行，抢夺。
She would be gone from me a little ways, but smiling too, and tell me jokes.
她会离开我一段距离，但也会微笑着，给我讲笑话。
I loved it, but didn't exactly know what to do about it, just smiled back at her and felt slow next to her, just not quick enough.
我喜欢它，但不知道该怎么办，只是对她微笑，感觉在她身边很慢，只是不够快。
So she talked and touched me on the shoulder and the arm.
于是她一边说话，一边抚摸我的肩膀和手臂。
She kept touching and stayed close to me.
她不断地触碰我，离我很近。
You're with each other all day long, and it keeps happening, the touches and smiles.
你们整天都在一起，这种事情一直在发生，触摸和微笑。
And it adds up.
累加起来。
It builds up and you know where you'll be that night.
它逐渐积累起来，你知道那天晚上你会在哪里。
You're talking and every now and then you think about it.
你一边说话，一边时不时地想一想。
No, you don't think, you just feel it as kind of a destination, what's coming up after you leave wherever you are all evening.
不，你不会想，你只是觉得它是一个目的地，无论你整个晚上都在哪里，离开后会发生什么。
And you're happy about it, and you're planning it all.
你对此感到高兴，并且你正在计划这一切。
Not it your head, really.
不是你的头，真的。
Somewhere inside your body, or all through your body.
你身体内部的某个地方，或者整个身体。
It's all mounting up and coming together so that when you get in bed, you can't help it.
这一切都在堆积起来，聚集在一起，所以当你躺在床上时，你会情不自禁。
It's a real performance.
这是一场真实的表演。
I mean, it all pours out, but slowly.
我的意思是，一切都倾泻而出，但速度很慢。
You go easy until you can't anymore, or you hold back the whole time.
你要放松，直到你不能再这样做，或者你一直在压抑。
You hold back and touch the edges of everything.
你忍住并触摸一切的边缘。
You edge around it till you have to plunge in and finish it off.
你绕着它走，直到你必须投入并完成它。
And when you're finished, you're too weak to stand.
当你完成后，你已经虚弱得无法站立。
But after a while you have to go to the bathroom, and you stand.
但过了一会儿你必须去洗手间，你就站起来。
Your legs are trembling.
你的腿在颤抖。
You hold onto the door frames.
你抓住门框。
There's a little light coming in through the window.
有一点光从窗户透进来。
You can see your way in and out, but you can't really see the bed.
你可以看到进出的路，但你看不到床。
So it's really not $100 a shot, because it goes on all day, from the start when you wake up and feel her body next to you.
所以这真的不是 100 美元一针，因为它会持续一整天，从你醒来并感觉到她的身体在你身边开始。
You don't miss a thing, not a thing, of what's going on next to you.
你不会错过任何发生在你身边的事情。
Her leg, her arm, her shoulder, her face, that good skin.
她的腿，她的手臂，她的肩膀，她的脸，还有那好的皮肤。
I've felt other good skin, but this skin is just the edge of something else.
我体验过其他不错的皮肤，但这款皮肤只是其他皮肤的边缘。
And you're going to start going.
你要开始行动了。
I mean, no matter how much you crawl all over each other, it won't be enough.
我的意思是，无论你们如何互相爬行，都不够。
And when your hunger dies down a little bit, then you start to think about how much you love her, and then that starts you off again.
当你的饥饿感稍微减弱时，你就会开始思考你有多爱她，然后你就会再次开始。
And her face-- and you look over at her face, and you can't believe how you got there, and how lucky, and it's all still a surprise.
还有她的脸——你看着她的脸，你无法相信你是如何到达那里的，以及多么幸运，这一切仍然是一个惊喜。
And it never stops.
而且它永远不会停止。
I mean, even after it's over, it never stops being a surprise.
我的意思是，即使结束了，它也永远不会停止令人惊讶。
It's more like you have a good 16 or 18 hours a day of this going on.
更像是你每天有 16 或 18 个小时的时间在进行这样的事情。
Even when you're not with her, it's still going on.
即使你不在她身边，事情仍在继续。
I mean, it's good to be away from her because it's going to be so good to get back to her, you know.
我的意思是，离开她很好，因为回到她身边也很好，你知道。
It's still there in you.
它仍然存在于你的内心。
And you can't go off and look at some old street or some old painting without feeling it in your body, and a few things that happened the day before that don't mean much by themselves or wouldn't mean much if you weren't having this thing together.
你不可能离开去看看一些老街或一些老画而不在你的身体中感受到它，而前一天发生的一些事情本身并没有多大意义，或者如果你没有一起经历这件事也没有多大意义。
But you can't forget, and it's all inside of you all the time.
但你无法忘记，它一直都在你的内心。
So it's more like, say, 16 into $100 would be $6 an hour, which isn't too much.
所以说，100 美元加 16 美元就是每小时 6 美元，这并不算多。
And then it really keeps going on while you're asleep, even though you're probably dreaming about something else.
然后当你睡着的时候，即使你可能在梦到别的东西，它也会持续发生。
A building, maybe.
也许是一栋大楼。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I kept dreaming every night, almost, about this building, because I'd spend a lot of every morning in this old stone building.
我几乎每天晚上都梦见这座建筑，因为每天早上我都会在这座古老的石头建筑里度过很多时间。
And when I closed my eyes, I would see these cool spaces and have this peace inside me.
当我闭上眼睛时，我会看到这些凉爽的空间，内心会感到平静。
I would see the bricks of the floor and the stone arches and the space, the emptiness between, like a kind of dark frame around what I could see beyond, a garden.
我会看到地板上的砖块、石拱门和空间，它们之间的空虚，就像一种黑暗的框架围绕着我能看到的花园。
And this space was like stone too, because of the coolness of it and the gray shadow, that kind of luminous shade that was glowing in the light of the sun falling beyond the arches.
这个空间也像石头一样，因为它的凉爽和灰色的阴影，那种在拱门外的阳光下闪闪发光的发光阴影。
And there's also this great height of the ceiling.
而且天花板的高度也很高。
All this was in my mind all the time though I didn't know it until I close my eyes.
这一切一直在我的脑海里，直到我闭上眼睛才知道。
I'm asleep, and I'm not dreaming about her, but she's lying next to me and I wake up enough times in the night to remember she's there and notice, say, once she was lying on her back but now she's curled around me.
我睡着了，我没有梦到她，但她躺在我旁边，我在夜里醒来了足够多次，记得她在那里，注意到，比如说，曾经她仰卧着，但现在她蜷缩在我身边。
I look at her closed eyes.
我看着她闭着的眼睛。
I want to kiss her eyelids.
我想亲吻她的眼皮。
I want to feel that soft skin under my lips but I don't want to disturb her.
我想感受嘴唇下柔软的皮肤，但我不想打扰她。
I don't want to see her frown as though, in her sleep, she's forgotten who I am and feels that just something is bothering her.
我不想看到她皱着眉头，就好像她在睡梦中忘记了我是谁，并觉得有什么事情困扰着她。
And so I just look at her and hold onto it all, these times when I'm watching over her sleep, and she's next to me and isn't away from me the way she will be later.
所以我只是看着她并抓住一切，这些时候当我看着她睡觉时，她就在我旁边，并没有像以后那样远离我。
I want to stay awake all night just to go on feeling that.
我想整夜保持清醒，只是为了继续感受这种感觉。
But I can't.
但我不能。
I fall asleep again, though I'm speaking lightly, still trying to hold onto it.
我又睡着了，尽管我说话很轻，但仍然试图抓住它。
But it isn't over when it ends.
但结束的时候还没有结束。
I mean, it goes on after it's all over.
我的意思是，一切结束后，事情还会继续。
She's still inside you like a sweet liqueur.
她仍然像甜甜的利口酒一样在你体内。
You're filled with her.
你心里充满了她。
Everything about her has kind of bled into you-- her voice, her smell, the way her body moves.
她的一切都融入了你——她的声音、她的气味、她身体的动作。
It's all inside of you, at least for awhile after.
这一切都在你的内心，至少在之后的一段时间内是这样。
Then you begin to lose it, and I'm beginning to lose it.
然后你开始失去它，我也开始失去它。
You're afraid of how weak you are, that you can't get her all back into you again, and now the whole thing is going to be out of your body, and it's more in your mind than in your body.
你害怕自己有多虚弱，害怕无法让她再次回到你身边，而现在这一切都将离开你的身体，更多的是在你的脑海中而不是在你的身体里。
The pictures come to you one by one, and you look at them.
图片一张一张地浮现在你的面前，你看着它们。
Some of them last longer than others.
其中一些比其他的持续时间更长。
You were together in this very white clean place, a coffee house, having breakfast together.
你们一起在这个非常白色干净的地方，一个咖啡馆，一起吃早餐。
And the place is so white that against it you can see her clearly, her blue eyes, her smile, the colors of clothes, even the print of the newspaper she's reading when she's not looking up at you.
这个地方是如此的白色，在它的映衬下你可以清楚地看到她，她的蓝眼睛，她的微笑，衣服的颜色，甚至她没有抬头看你时正在阅读的报纸的印刷品。
The light brown and red and gold of her hair when she's got her head down reading.
当她低头读书时，她的头发呈浅棕色、红色和金色。
The brown coffee, the brown rolls, all against the white table and those white plates and silver urns and silver knives and spoons, and against that quiet of the sleepy people in that room sitting alone at their tables with just chinking and clattering of spoons and cups and saucers.
棕色的咖啡，棕色的面包卷，都映衬着白色的桌子、白色的盘子、银瓮、银的刀子和勺子，映衬着房间里昏昏欲睡的人们独自坐在桌子旁的安静，只有勺子、杯子和碟子的叮当作响。
And some hushed voices, her voice now and then rising and falling.
还有一些低沉的声音，她的声音时而起伏。
The pictures come to you and you have to hope they won't lose their life too fast and dry up, though you know they will, and that you'll also forget some of what happened, because already you're turning up little things that you nearly forgot.
这些照片来到你面前，你必须希望它们不会太快地失去生命和干涸，尽管你知道它们会，而且你也会忘记一些发生过的事情，因为你已经在找一些你几乎忘记的小事情了。
We were in bed, and she asked me, do I seem fat to you?
我们躺在床上，她问我，你觉得我胖吗？
And I was surprised because she didn't seem too worry about herself at all in that way, and I guess I was reading into it that she did worry about herself, so I answered what I was thinking, and said stupidly that she had a very beautiful body, that her body was perfect.
我很惊讶，因为她看起来一点也不担心自己，我想我是在解读她确实担心自己，所以我回答了我的想法，并愚蠢地说她有一个非常美丽的身体，她的身体很完美。
And I really meant it as an answer, but she said kind of sharply, that's not what I asked.
我确实是想回答，但她尖锐地说，这不是我问的。
And so I had to try to answer her again, exactly what she had asked.
所以我不得不再次尝试回答她，正如她所问的那样。
And once she lay over against me, late at night, and she started talking, her breath in my ear, and she just went on and on and talked faster and faster.
有一次，深夜，她靠在我身上，开始说话，她的呼吸在我耳边，她一直说个不停，说得越来越快。
She couldn't stop, and I loved it.
她停不下来，我很喜欢。
I just felt that all that life in her was running into me too.
我只是觉得她身上的所有生命也都融入到了我身上。
I had so little life in me.
我的生命力太少了。
Her life, her fire, was coming into me in that hot breath in my ear.
她的生命，她的火焰，随着我耳边那股炙热的气息涌入我的体内。
And I just wanted her to go on talking forever right there next to me, and I would go on living like that.
我只是希望她能永远在我身边说话，而我会继续这样生活。
I would be able to go on living, but without her-- I don't know.
我可以继续生活，但没有她——我不知道。
Then you forget some of it all.
然后你就会忘记其中的一些。
Maybe most of it all.
也许是大部分。
Almost all of it, in the end.
几乎全部，到了最后。
And you work hard at remembering everything now, so you won't ever forget.
现在你努力记住一切，这样你就永远不会忘记。
But you can kill it too, even by thinking about it too much, though you can't help but thinking about it nearly all the time.
但你也可以杀死它，即使你想得太多，尽管你几乎无时无刻不在想它。
And then when the pictures start to go, you start asking some questions, just little questions that sit in your mind without any answers.
然后当图片开始播放时，你开始问一些问题，只是一些留在你脑海中没有任何答案的小问题。
Like, why did she leave the light on when you came to bed one night, but it was off the next, but she had it on the night after that, and she had it off the last night?
比如，为什么有一天晚上你上床睡觉时她让灯开着，但第二天就关了，但在那之后的晚上她把灯打开了，而昨晚她把灯关了？
Why?
为什么？
And all the questions, little questions that nag at you like that.
还有所有的问题，像这样困扰着你的小问题。
And finally the pictures go and these dry little questions just sit there without any answers.
最后，照片消失了，这些枯燥的小问题就坐在那里，没有任何答案。
And you're left with this large heavy pain in you that you try to numb by reading.
而你内心却留下了巨大的沉重痛苦，你试图通过阅读来麻痹它。
Or you try to ease it by getting out into public places where there'll be people around you.
或者你可以尝试到周围有人的公共场所来缓解这种情况。
But no matter how good you are at pushing that pain away, just when you think you're going to be all right for a little while, that you're safe, you're holding it off with all your strength and you're staying in some bare little numb spot of ground, then suddenly it will all come back.
但无论你多么擅长推开那种疼痛，当你认为自己会好一阵子，觉得自己很安全，用尽全力忍住它，呆在某个光秃秃的麻木之地时，突然一切都会回来。
You'll hear a noise.
您会听到噪音。
Maybe it's a cat crying, or a baby, something else like her cry.
也许是猫的哭声，或者是婴儿的哭声，或者是其他类似她的哭声。
You hear it and make that connection in a part of you you have no control over, and that pain comes back so hard that you're afraid, afraid of how you're going to fall back into it again.
你听到它，并在你无法控制的一部分中建立起这种联系，而那种痛苦又回来得如此强烈，以至于你害怕，害怕你将如何再次陷入其中。
And you wonder-- no you're terrified at how you're ever going to climb out of it.
你想知道——不，你害怕自己将如何摆脱困境。
So it's not every hour of the day while it's happening.
所以它并不是一天中的每个小时都在发生。
It's really for hours and hours every day after that, for weeks, though less and less.
此后，每天都会持续几个小时，持续几个星期，尽管时间越来越少。
So that you could work out a ratio if you wanted.
这样您就可以根据需要计算出一个比率。
Maybe after six weeks, you're only thinking about it an hour or so in the day altogether, a few minutes here and there spread over, or a few and minutes here and there and a half an hour before you go to sleep.
也许六周后，你一天中只会思考这个问题一个小时左右，分散的几分钟，或者睡觉前的半小时。
Or sometimes it all comes back and you stay awake half the night.
或者有时候，一切又回来了，你半夜都睡不着。
So when you add up all that, you've only spent maybe $3 an hour on it.
所以当你把所有这些加起来时，你每小时大约只花了 3 美元。
If you have to figure in the bad times too, I don't know.
如果你也必须考虑困难时期，我不知道。
There weren't any bad times with her, though.
不过，和她在一起并没有什么不好的时光。
Maybe there was one bad time, when I told her I loved her.
也许有一次很糟糕，当我告诉她我爱她时。
I couldn't help it.
我忍不住了。
This was the first time this had happened with her.
这种事在她身上还是第一次发生。
Now I was half-falling in love with her, or maybe completely, if she'd let me.
现在我已经半爱上她了，或者也许是完全爱上她了，如果她允许的话。
But she couldn't, or I couldn't completely, because it was all going to be so short, and other things too.
但她不能，或者说我完全不能，因为一切都会如此短暂，其他事情也是如此。
And so I told her.
我就这样告诉她。
And I didn't know of any way to tell her first that she didn't have to feel that this was a burden, the fact that I loved her, or that she didn't have to feel the same about me or say the same back, that it was just that I had to tell her, that's all.
我不知道有什么办法可以先告诉她，她不必觉得这是一种负担，我爱她的事实，或者她不必对我有同样的感觉或说同样的话，只是我必须告诉她，仅此而已。
Because it was bursting inside me, and saying it wouldn't even begin to take care of what I was feeling, really.
因为它在我内心爆发，说它甚至不会开始照顾我的感受，真的。
I couldn't say anything of what I was feeling because there was so much.
我无法说出我的感受，因为有太多。
Words couldn't handle it and making love only made it worse, because then I wanted words badly but they were no good, no good at all.
言语无法解决这个问题，而做爱只会让情况变得更糟，因为那时我非常想要言语，但它们没有好处，根本没有好处。
But I told her anyway.
但我还是告诉了她。
I was lying on top of her in her hands were up by her head and my hands were on hers and our fingers were locked, and there was a little light on her face from the window, but I couldn't see her.
我躺在她身上，双手放在她的头上，我的手放在她的手上，我们的手指紧紧相扣，窗户里有一点光照射在她的脸上，但我看不到她。
And I was afraid to say it, but I had to say it, because I wanted her to know.
我不敢说，但我不得不说，因为我想让她知道。
It was the last night.
那是最后一晚。
I had to tell her then or I'd never have another chance, and I just said, before you go to sleep-- I have to tell you before you go to sleep that I love you.
我当时必须告诉她，否则我就再也没有机会了，我只是说，在你睡觉之前——我必须在你睡觉之前告诉你我爱你。
And immediately, right away after, she said, I love you too.
紧接着，她说，我也爱你。
And it sounded to me as if she didn't mean it, a little flat.
我听上去好像她不是故意的，有点平淡。
But then it usually sounds flat when somebody says, I love you too, because they're just saying it back even if they do mean it.
但当有人说“我也爱你”时，通常听起来很平淡，因为即使他们是认真的，他们也只是回嘴而已。
And the problem is that I'll never know if she meant it.
问题是我永远不知道她是否是认真的。
Or maybe someday she'll tell me whether she meant it or not, but there's no way to know now.
或者也许有一天她会告诉我她是否有意，但现在无法知道。
And I'm sorry I did that.
我很抱歉我这么做了。
It was a trap I didn't mean to put her in.
这是一个陷阱，我不是故意让她掉进去的。
And I can see it was a trap, because if she hadn't said anything at all, that would have hurt me too, you know, as though she were taking something from me and just accepting it and not giving anything back.
我可以看出这是一个陷阱，因为如果她什么也没说，那也会伤害我，你知道，就好像她从我身上夺走了一些东西，然后只是接受它，而不给予任何回报。
So she really had to.
所以她真的不得不这么做。
Even if just to be kind, she had to say it.
哪怕只是出于善意，她也不得不说出来。
And I don't really know now if she meant it.
我现在真的不知道她是否是认真的。
Another bad time-- or it wasn't exactly bad but it wasn't easy either-- was when I had to leave.
另一个糟糕的时刻——或者说不完全糟糕，但也不容易——是我不得不离开的时候。
The time was coming, and I was beginning to tremble and feel empty, nothing in the middle of me, nothing inside, nothing to hold me up on my legs.
时间快到了，我开始颤抖，感到空虚，我的中间没有任何东西，里面没有任何东西，没有任何东西可以支撑我的腿。
And then it came.
然后它来了。
Everything was ready and I had to go.
一切都准备好了，我得走了。
So it was just a kiss, a quick one, as though we were afraid of what might happen after a kiss.
所以这只是一个吻，一个很快的吻，就好像我们害怕接吻后会发生什么一样。
And she was almost wild then.
那时她几乎是狂野的。
And she reached up to a hook by the door and took an old shirt, a green and blue shirt from the hook and put it in my arms for me to take away.
她伸手到门边的一个钩子上，从钩子上拿出一件旧衬衫，一件绿蓝相间的衬衫，放在我怀里让我拿走。
The soft cloth was full of her smell.
柔软的布料上充满了她的味道。
And then we stood there close together looking at this piece of paper she had in her hand.
然后我们站在一起，看着她手里的这张纸。
And I didn't lose any of it.
而我并没有失去任何东西。
I was holding it tight that last minute or two, because this was it.
最后一两分钟我紧紧抓住它，因为就是这样了。
We'd come to the end of it.
我们就到此为止了。
Things always change, so this was really it.
事情总是在变化，所以这确实是这样。
Over.
超过。
Maybe it works out all right.
也许一切顺利。
Maybe you haven't lost for doing it.
也许你并没有因此而失败。
I don't know.
我不知道。
No, really, I mean, sometimes when you think of it, you feel like a prince really.
不，真的，我的意思是，有时当你想到这一点时，你真的感觉自己像个王子。
You feel just like a king.
你感觉就像一个国王。
And other times you're afraid.
而其他时候你会感到害怕。
You're afraid not all the time, but now and then, of what it's going to do to you.
你并不是一直害怕，而是时不时地害怕它会对你产生什么影响。
It's hard to know what to do with it now.
现在很难知道该怎么处理它。
Walking away I looked back once, and the door was still open.
走开的时候我回头看了一眼，门还开着。
I could see her standing far back in the dark of the room.
我可以看到她站在房间黑暗的后面很远的地方。
I could only really see her white face still looking out at me, and her white arms.
我只能看到她苍白的脸仍然看着我，还有她白皙的手臂。
I guess you get to a point where you look at that pain as if it were there in front of you three feet away lying in a box, an open box in a window somewhere.
我猜你已经到了这样的地步：你看着那种痛苦，就好像它就在你面前三英尺远的地方，躺在一个盒子里，某个窗户里的一个打开的盒子。
It's hard and cold like a bar of metal.
它又硬又冷，就像一根金属棒。
You just look at it there and say, all right.
你只要看着它然后说，好吧。
I'll take it.
我要买它。
I'll buy it.
我会买它。
That's what it is.
就是这样。
Because you know all about it, before you even go into this thing.
因为在你深入了解这件事之前，你就已经了解了一切。
You know the pain is part of the whole thing.
你知道痛苦是整个事情的一部分。
And it isn't that we can say afterwards the pleasure was greater than the pain, and that's why you'd do it again.
并不是说事后我们可以说快乐大于痛苦，这就是为什么你会再做一次。
That has nothing to do it.
这与它无关。
You can't measure it, because the pain comes after and it lasts longer.
你无法衡量它，因为疼痛会随之而来，而且持续时间更长。
So the question really is, why doesn't the pain make you say, I won't do it again, when the pain is so bad that you have to say that, but you don't?
所以问题实际上是，当疼痛如此严重以至于你不得不这么说时，为什么疼痛不让你说，我不会再这样做了，但你没有？
So I'm just thinking about it.
所以我只是想一下。
How you can go in with $600, more like $1,000, and how you can come out with an old shirt.
你如何能带着 600 美元（或者更像是 1,000 美元）进去，以及如何带着一件旧衬衫出来。
"Break It Down," by Lydia Davis, from her book of stories called Break It Down, read for us by actor Matt Malloy.
莉迪亚·戴维斯 (Lydia Davis) 的《打破它》(Break It Down) 出自她的故事集《打破它》(Break It Down)，由演员马特·马洛伊 (Matt Malloy) 为我们朗读。
Her latest book is called Varieties of Disturbance .
她的最新著作名为《各种干扰》。
Well, our program was produced today by Nancy Updike and me, with Alix Spiegel and Julie Snyder.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由南希·厄普代克和我、阿利克斯·斯皮格尔和朱莉·斯奈德共同制作的。
Senior editor for this show, Paul Tough.
该节目的高级编辑 Paul Tough。
Music help today from John Connors.
今天约翰·康纳斯提供音乐帮助。
Our production manager is Seth Lind.
我们的生产经理是 Seth Lind。
Production help from PJ Vote.
PJ Vote 提供制作帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Today's program was first broadcast all the way back in 1998.
[致谢] 今天的节目早在 1998 年就已首次播出。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by Mr. Torey Malatia, who asks the This American Life staff this every single day.
Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他每天都会向《This American Life》工作人员询问这一点。
How can I, the organization providing the service, please you?
作为提供服务的组织，我该如何做才能让您满意？
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。