878: New Lore Drop - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #878 | January 9, 2026 878: New Lore Drop Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 878 集 | 2026 年 1 月 9 日 878：新传说掉落 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Back when Pete was 18 years old, it was the summer before he went away to college.
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯 回到皮特 18 岁那年，那是他去上大学之前的夏天。
He's home, in the living room with his dad.
他在家，和他爸爸一起在客厅里。
And he turns to me and he says, Peter, let's go for a drive.
他转向我说，彼得，我们开车去兜风吧。
And that was not something that he ever said.
他从来没有说过这样的话。
That's not something that we did.
那不是我们做的事情。
So Pete knows something's up, but he has no idea what.
所以皮特知道出了什么事，但他不知道是什么。
They go outside, get in the Volvo.
他们走到外面，坐进沃尔沃。
Pete asks his dad--
皮特问他爸爸——
Shouldn't we get Will, my younger brother?
我们不应该去找我弟弟威尔吗？
Because he was at home.
因为他在家。
He was probably 13 or 14.
他大概13或14岁。
And my dad just shook his head no.
我爸爸只是摇头说不。
This drive for Pete, alone with his dad, turned out to be kind of a big moment in his life.
对皮特来说，独自和父亲一起开车是他一生中的一个重要时刻。
Before the drive, if he had to describe his family, it wasn't hard.
在开车之前，如果他必须描述一下他的家人，那并不难。
He could do it in two words.
他可以用两个字来做到这一点。
Completely mundane.
完全平凡。
I mean, we lived outside of DC.
我的意思是，我们住在华盛顿特区以外。
My parents worked for the government.
我的父母为政府工作。
I mean, they were good parents.
我的意思是，他们是好父母。
They were kind and attentive.
他们很友善而且细心。
And we would have dinner every night.
我们每晚都会吃晚饭。
My dad would cook dinner.
我爸爸会做饭。
The way Pete remembers it, he did salmon Sundays, made a great pot roast, had a pizza that he'd make on Fridays.
皮特记得，周日他会做鲑鱼，做一顿美味的烤肉，周五会做披萨。
His mom was the one who'd make sure they did their homework and cleaned their rooms.
他的妈妈负责确保他们做作业并打扫房间。
She was direct and more talkative than their dad, who was really quiet.
她比他们的父亲更直接、更健谈，而他们的父亲非常安静。
They were not gregarious.
他们不合群。
They didn't really have friends.
他们其实没有朋友。
They didn't really have hobbies.
他们确实没有什么爱好。
OK, and so now he is in the car with his dad, just the two of them.
好吧，现在他和他爸爸在车里，只有他们两个人。
Dad pulls out of the driveway.
爸爸把车驶出车道。
So we start driving through our neighborhood, and we get to the stoplight at the end of our neighborhood.
所以我们开始开车穿过我们的社区，到达社区尽头的红绿灯。
And he says to me, Peter, it's time to tell you about the family business, espionage.
他对我说，彼得，是时候告诉你有关家族生意的间谍活动了。
I mean, my first reaction was, like, what are you doing right now?
我的意思是，我的第一反应是，你现在在做什么？
What kind of joke is this?
这是什么玩笑？
And then the next thing that he said is, open the glove box.
然后他说的下一件事是，打开手套箱。
And so I opened the glove box, and inside was a sheet of paper.
于是我打开手套箱，里面有一张纸。
And he said, take out that sheet of paper.
他说，拿出那张纸。
And so I took it out, and I'm scanning the page, and it's his resume from the CIA.
所以我把它拿出来，我正在扫描页面，这是他在中央情报局的简历。
No. Ira Glass Where did you think he worked?
不。艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 你认为他在哪里工作？
Well, he said he worked at the State Department.
嗯，他说他在国务院工作。
But now, on this sheet of paper, it listed all the different countries that Pete had lived with his parents-- Germany and the Netherlands and Jamaica, countries where Pete had always thought that his dad was going off to an embassy or consulate every day to work for the State Department.
但现在，在这张纸上，列出了皮特与父母一起生活过的所有不同国家——德国、荷兰和牙买加，皮特一直以为他的父亲每天都会去这些国家的大使馆或领事馆为国务院工作。
And I'm seeing, like, counterintelligence, and counterinsurgency, and deputy chief, chief of station, case officer.
我看到的是反情报、反叛乱、副局长、站长、案件官员。
I didn't know what to ask next.
我不知道接下来该问什么。
And I honestly don't know that we talked very much at all.
老实说，我不知道我们聊了多少。
So we actually drove in a big loop and drove back down into the driveway.
所以我们实际上绕了一个大圈然后又开回车道。
And I was like, oh, wait, does Mom know about this?
我当时想，哦，等等，妈妈知道这件事吗？
And my dad goes, oh, um, she works there, too.
我爸爸说，哦，嗯，她也在那里工作。
This stunned him.
这让他大吃一惊。
His dad, he could kind of see.
他的父亲，他看得出来。
His dad was quiet, like somebody who keeps keep secrets.
他的父亲很安静，就像一个保守秘密的人。
But with my mom, it was completely out of-- it was just a complete surprise because of how she was.
但对于我妈妈来说，这完全是——因为她的样子，这完全是一个惊喜。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Pete She just was somebody who-- it just seemed like you were getting exactly what you got.
皮特 她就是这样一个人——看起来你得到的正是你得到的。
She just didn't really seem like somebody who could deceive.
她只是看起来不像是一个会欺骗人的人。
But I guess she was.
但我猜她是。
And were they the kind of CIA employees who analyze data and sit at a desk, work a desk?
他们是那种分析数据并坐在办公桌前工作的中情局雇员吗？
Or were they out in the field, spying, pretending to be people who they aren't, carrying a gun?
或者他们是在野外进行间谍活动，假装不是他们，拿着枪？
Were that kind of CIA?
那是中央情报局吗？
They were out in the field.
他们在野外。
Yeah, they were undercover.
是的，他们是卧底。
They had passports with other names.
他们的护照上有其他名字。
And the way it was described to me is that they were not spies.
据我描述，他们不是间谍。
They were recruiting spies from other countries.
他们正在从其他国家招募间谍。
And in doing so, they were pretending to be people who they were not.
在这样做的过程中，他们假装成不是他们的人。
Pete says before this, he just hadn't really thought much about his parents and their lives and their jobs.
皮特说，在此之前，他只是没有真正考虑过他的父母以及他们的生活和工作。
He was a kid.
他还是个孩子。
He once asked his mom, what do you actually do at your government job all day long?
他曾经问他妈妈，你整天在政府工作到底做什么？
And I think my mom said something like, oh, it's just meetings and memos.
我想我妈妈说过类似的话，哦，这只是会议和备忘录。
And I was like, yeah, I figured.
我当时想，是的，我想。
Just boring stuff.
只是无聊的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
Which, I have to say, I bet there were meetings and memos, so it's like, that isn't 100% lie.
我不得不说，我打赌肯定有会议和备忘录，所以这并不是 100% 的谎言。
It's just leaving some stuff out.
它只是遗漏了一些东西。
Yeah.
是的。
No, definitely using boringness as a kind of deception.
不，绝对是利用无聊作为一种欺骗。
In retrospect, Pete says, there were clues that he could have maybe picked up on.
皮特说，回想起来，他可能发现了一些线索。
His mom spoke several languages.
他的妈妈会说多种语言。
The family lived most of his life in other countries.
他的家人在其他国家度过了大部分时间。
His dad owned a 9 millimeter pistol and was always up at 4:00 in the morning to go running on a track.
他的父亲拥有一把 9 毫米手枪，总是在凌晨 4:00 起床去跑道上跑步。
It was the fact that his parents didn't have friends and never had anybody over to the house-- which, of course, doesn't mean that you're a spy, but still.
事实上，他的父母没有朋友，也从未邀请任何人到家里来——当然，这并不意味着你是间谍，但仍然如此。
Yeah, it actually wasn't until a lot later that I realized that a lot of adults do have friends and still hang out.
是的，实际上直到很久以后我才意识到很多成年人确实有朋友并且仍然出去玩。
And there were things like when I would go to the mall with my mom, she always made sure we knew a code word.
还有一些事情，比如当我和妈妈去商场时，她总是确保我们知道一个暗号。
And she would say like, OK, so if Mommy's ever not here, and somebody comes to pick you up, make sure they know the code word.
她会说，好吧，所以如果妈妈不在家，有人来接你，请确保他们知道密码。
And the code word was always "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles."
暗号始终是“忍者神龟”。
Wait, anytime you would go to the mall, your mom would remind you of this?
等等，每当你去商场时，你妈妈都会提醒你这一点吗？
Yeah, we'd be in the back seat, and she'd be like, OK, boys, what's the code word?
是的，我们坐在后座，她会说，好吧，伙计们，暗号是什么？
And we'd say, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
我们会说，《忍者神龟》。
At the time, he says, he chalked it up to 1990s stranger danger stuff, but he learned that other parents do not do this.
他说，当时他将其归因于 20 世纪 90 年代的陌生人危险事件，但他了解到其他父母不会这样做。
And he told me there was one more clue about his parents' jobs, a clue was sitting right there during the years they moved back to Virginia.
他告诉我，还有一条关于他父母工作的线索，在他们搬回弗吉尼亚的那些年里，一条线索就在那里。
Maybe the biggest clue of all is that we lived right across the street from the CIA headquarters.
也许最大的线索是我们住在中央情报局总部的街对面。
Wait, what?
等等，什么？
Pete Yeah.
皮特 是的。
[LAUGHS] That makes a lot of sense because my dad was super pragmatic, and he hated traffic.
[笑]这很有意义，因为我爸爸非常务实，他讨厌交通。
To be clear, they weren't literally across the street, but in a neighborhood right across the street.
需要明确的是，他们实际上并不是在街对面，而是在街对面的一个社区。
Door to door, less than five minutes.
门到门，不到五分钟。
Pete's parents are both dead now.
皮特的父母现在都去世了。
They both retired from the CIA after long careers-- which is why it's OK to talk about it here on the radio, by the way.
他们都在长期职业生涯后从中央情报局退休——顺便说一句，这就是为什么可以在广播中谈论这件事。
But when Pete learned about this, it really did make their lives seem so much more impressive.
但当皮特得知这一点后，他们的生活确实变得更加令人印象深刻。
Like, they met in the CIA, fell in love in the CIA.
就像，他们在中情局相识，在中情局相爱。
They were globetrotting and bringing their kids around and doing God knows what.
他们环游世界，带着孩子到处走走，天知道他们在做什么。
I'm not exactly sure how to ask this question, so I'm just going to ask this straight out.
我不太确定如何问这个问题，所以我就直接问这个问题。
Like, the one thing that I know about spies from movies is that they're all really, really hot.
就像，我从电影中了解到的关于间谍的一件事是，他们都非常非常性感。
Were your parents really hot?
你的父母真的很热情吗？
[CHUCKLING] I mean, yeah, they were hot.
[咯咯笑]我的意思是，是的，他们很热。
Yeah, they were hot.
是的，他们很热。
They were very attractive people.
他们是非常有魅力的人。
My mom was-- I have these old pictures of her, and she's just beautiful.
我妈妈——我有她的这些旧照片，她很漂亮。
There's this concept that originally was in video games, and then it spread to TV shows and to social media, where-- OK, say, in a video game, there's the universe that everything takes place in, right?
这个概念最初存在于电子游戏中，然后它传播到电视节目和社交媒体，在那里——好吧，比如说，在电子游戏中，有一个一切发生的宇宙，对吧？
And then at some point, the game creators do a new lore drop, where they give backstory or reveal important details that suddenly make everything seem different and richer and more complicated, shed a whole new light.
然后在某个时候，游戏创作者会制作一个新的背景故事，他们提供背景故事或揭示重要的细节，突然让一切看起来不同、更丰富、更复杂，带来全新的曙光。
Pete had that.
皮特就有了。
He had a new lore drop in his actual life.
他的现实生活中出现了新的传说。
He thought his parents were one thing, then learned backstory that changed his whole picture of them.
他认为他的父母是一回事，然后了解的背景故事改变了他对他们的整体看法。
So what's that like to live through in real life?
那么现实生活中的生活是什么样的呢？
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I think at first, it was a shock, the fact that they were able to deceive me for my whole life.
我的意思是，我想一开始，他们能够欺骗我一生，这让我感到震惊。
And that is just weird.
这很奇怪。
It did make me look at them differently.
这确实让我对他们有了不同的看法。
Like, wow, the rug just got pulled from under me.
就像，哇，地毯刚刚从我身下被拉走了。
Everything I know is a lie.
我所知道的一切都是谎言。
But then when that wears off, it's kind of like, well, it's still just Mom and Dad.
但当这种感觉消失后，就好像，好吧，仍然只有爸爸妈妈。
Pete says everybody goes through the thing when they grow up, where they learn to see their parents not just as the boring human furniture around the house of their childhood.
皮特说，每个人长大后都会经历这样的事情，他们学会将父母视为童年时家里无聊的人类家具。
And for most of us, the new information that we absorb about our parents happens over years.
对于我们大多数人来说，我们吸收有关父母的新信息需要多年的时间。
The new lore drop version that Pete got was just kind of the accelerated program.
皮特得到的新的传说掉落版本只是一种加速程序。
Today on our show, we have other human beings who are not video game characters, and they're not fictional people on long-running television series, who get hit with all new information about their own lives, backstories that rewrite everything, new lore drops in real life.
今天在我们的节目中，我们有其他人，他们不是电子游戏角色，也不是长篇电视连续剧中的虚构人物，他们受到有关自己生活的所有新信息、重写一切的背景故事、现实生活中新知识的冲击。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
Today on the show, I will still be playing the part that I always play here.
今天在节目中，我仍然会扮演我一直在这里扮演的角色。
And I have not learned that I am a princess from Genovia, and my grandmother is actually Julie Andrews.
我还不知道我是来自吉诺维亚的公主，而我的祖母实际上是朱莉·安德鲁斯。
I am still Ira Glass.
我仍然是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
Act One, Save the Drama for Your Grandmama.
第一幕，把戏剧留给你的奶奶。
Sometimes, a lore drop happens when you least expect it, like in this next story.
有时，传说掉落会在你最意想不到的时候发生，就像下一个故事一样。
Aviva DeKornfeld explains.
阿维瓦·德科恩菲尔德 (Aviva DeKornfeld) 解释道。
When I first met Jake, it was obvious.
当我第一次见到杰克时，这一点是显而易见的。
This is a guy who was hardwired to try and connect with people.
这是一个天生就尝试与人建立联系的人。
He's like this friendly bulldozer, Kool-Aid Man-ing his way into emotional intimacy.
他就像这个友好的推土机，Kool-Aid Man-ing 进入情感亲密的方式。
And Jake's always been this way, in part, perhaps, because he grew up surrounded by people.
杰克一直都是这样，部分原因可能是因为他是在人群中长大的。
He comes from this big Irish Catholic family in Rhode Island, and he had a sort of sitcom upbringing.
他来自罗德岛州的一个爱尔兰天主教大家庭，他的成长经历类似于情景喜剧。
His aunts and uncles and cousins all lived close by.
他的叔叔阿姨和表兄弟姐妹都住在附近。
One grandma lived literally next door.
一位奶奶就住在隔壁。
The other set of grandparents lived a 15-minute walk from his house, and Jake saw them every day.
另一对祖父母住在距离他家15分钟步行路程的地方，杰克每天都能见到他们。
It was the best.
这是最好的。
And then, when he was seven years old, his family moved to Vermont, away from his extended family.
然后，当他七岁时，他的家人搬到了佛蒙特州，远离了他的大家庭。
And he hated it, really missed them.
他讨厌这样，真的很想念他们。
And this missing only intensified when his grandma back in Rhode Island was diagnosed with breast cancer.
当他回到罗德岛的祖母被诊断出患有乳腺癌时，这种思念只会加剧。
To little Jake, it was obvious what to do.
对于小杰克来说，该做什么是显而易见的。
I just started calling her all the time, and I think because I just wanted to keep talking to her because I was so afraid she was going to die.
我开始一直给她打电话，我想是因为我只是想继续和她说话，因为我很害怕她会死。
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
It's so sweet.
太甜了。
Jake I know.
杰克我知道。
[LAUGHS] And it's funny to think back on because it was so purely intentioned, but it's also so-- the motives of it are so transparent that it must have just been a reminder to my grandmother every day, like, this kid thinks you're going to die because you might.
[笑]回想起来很有趣，因为它的目的是如此纯粹，但它的动机是如此明显，它一定只是每天提醒我的祖母，就像，这个孩子认为你会死，因为你可能会死。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
She was like, OK, relax.
她说，好吧，放松点。
Jake No, 'cause she was like, I was trying to have one day of fucking peace.
杰克：不，因为她就像，我只是想有一天他妈的平静。
And I'm like, hi, Grandma, can I talk to you again before you die?
我想，嗨，奶奶，在你死之前我可以再和你说话吗？
I kind of have this memory of the calls kind of running out of steam a little bit because I was calling every single day, and I was like eight or nine.
我记得这些电话有点失去动力，因为我每天都打电话，而且我大概八九岁。
And so it's like, what?
所以就像是，什么？
What do you have to talk about, you know?
你们有什么要谈的，知道吗？
And so I think I had introduced her to Harry Potter, just as I had started reading it.
所以我想我已经把她介绍给了《哈利·波特》，就像我开始阅读它一样。
And I think we were then-- we would read them at the same time, and we would read a chapter a night, talk on the phone the next day.
我想我们当时会同时阅读它们，每晚读一章，第二天通过电话交谈。
We would discuss the chapter, sort of like book club with my grandma.
我们会讨论这一章，有点像和我奶奶的读书俱乐部。
I remember-- my mom always jokes one of the most upset times she ever saw me was I caught that my grandma had read ahead.
我记得——我妈妈总是开玩笑说，她见过我时最难过的一次是我发现我奶奶已经提前读过了。
Because she accidentally said something on one of the calls that hadn't happened yet.
因为她在一个电话中不小心说了一些尚未发生的事情。
And I was like, what are you talking about?
我当时想，你在说什么？
And she was like, well, doesn't it?
她说，好吧，不是吗？
And I was like, you read ahead.
我当时想，你先读一下。
And she had read the whole book because she couldn't put it down because she loved it.
她读完了整本书，因为她爱不释手。
Right.
正确的。
Jake But I was like, never do that again.
杰克但我想，再也不会这样做了。
Swear to me that you'll never-- because I loved that I had that experience with her.
向我发誓你永远不会——因为我喜欢和她在一起的经历。
This Harry Potter book club evolved into talking about other books, books they were reading separately.
这个哈利·波特读书俱乐部演变成了谈论其他书籍，他们分别阅读的书籍。
The way it worked, they would each read their own book, and then they'd hop on the phone and summarize it for the other person, chapter by chapter.
工作方式是，他们每个人都会读自己的书，然后他们会拿起电话，逐章地为另一个人总结。
It was part of my nightly ritual.
这是我每晚仪式的一部分。
I feel like it was come home, do homework, maybe have dinner, then call Grandma, and recap the book.
我觉得就像是回家，做作业，也许吃晚饭，然后打电话给奶奶，重温一下书。
Because I always loved recapping my book to her.
因为我总是喜欢向她重述我的书。
I loved having someone to tell this story to so that it was like, I loved being able to retell it.
我喜欢有人向我讲述这个故事，这样我就喜欢能够重述它。
I want to tell her this story in the way it made me feel.
我想以我的感受告诉她这个故事。
I want to make sure I hide this suspense.
我想确保我隐藏了这个悬念。
I want to-- if there was a surprise in the book, I wanted to make sure I tell her the story of the book in a way that keeps the surprise, so that she's as surprised when I tell her as I was when I read it.
我想——如果书中有惊喜，我想确保以一种保留惊喜的方式告诉她这本书的故事，这样当我告诉她时，她会像我读到它时一样惊讶。
And then I'd be like, OK, what about your books?
然后我会说，好吧，你的书呢？
And she would tell me.
她会告诉我。
And I remember kind of clocking pretty early on that she definitely didn't have that same flair for-- she just didn't-- she would be like, oh, and then, yeah, they're starting to fall in love.
我记得很早就开始计时，她肯定没有同样的天赋——她只是没有——她会说，哦，然后，是的，他们开始坠入爱河。
And I'd be like, well, how do they fall in love?
我会想，好吧，他们是如何坠入爱河的？
Why do they like each other?
他们为什么互相喜欢？
I felt very connected to her through the books and through the storytelling.
通过书籍和讲故事，我觉得与她有非常密切的联系。
Because I think my grandma was not-- she wasn't particularly forthcoming about herself.
因为我认为我的祖母不是——她对自己并不是特别坦诚。
She wasn't someone who would come home and drop her bag and like, God, I gotta tell you about my day.
她不是那种回家后放下包就说，上帝啊，我得告诉你我这一天的经历的人。
That was not her.
那不是她。
And this was the first time that I felt like I was having a conversation with an adult who was talking to me about stuff going on in their own life, even if it was just the book they were reading.
这是我第一次感觉到我正在与一个成年人交谈，他正在和我谈论他们自己生活中发生的事情，即使这只是他们正在读的书。
Jake's grandma worked at Filene's, in the shoe department.
杰克的奶奶在法林鞋店工作。
She was a real coupon hound, loved a sale.
她是一个真正的优惠券猎手，喜欢促销。
She was nice, but not exactly sweet in a grandmotherly kind of way.
她很友善，但并不完全像祖母那样甜美。
She was often way too honest.
她常常过于诚实。
Like, if you said you weren't feeling good about yourself because your clothes didn't fit right, she would offer, well, you gained weight.
比如，如果你说你因为衣服不合身而自我感觉不好，她会说，好吧，你体重增加了。
She liked reading all kinds of books, but she especially loved thrillers.
她喜欢阅读各种书籍，但她尤其喜欢惊悚小说。
Jake remembers one of her books in particular, Smoke and Mirrors, about a librarian whose half-sister was murdered.
杰克特别记得她的一本书《烟与镜》，讲述了一位图书管理员的同父异母妹妹被谋杀的故事。
The librarian tries to figure out who murdered her half-sister with the help of a guy who knew her.
图书管理员试图在一个认识她的人的帮助下找出是谁谋杀了她同父异母的妹妹。
It was suspenseful.
这很悬念。
His grandma loved a mystery.
他的祖母喜欢神秘。
The two kept this book club going for years.
两人让这个读书俱乐部持续了很多年。
Jake would pace back and forth in the hall between the dining room and living room in his house in Vermont, phone tucked under his ear, while his grandma sat nestled in her favorite armchair back in Rhode Island.
杰克会在佛蒙特州家中的餐厅和客厅之间来回踱步，电话夹在耳下，而他的祖母则坐在罗德岛州她最喜欢的扶手椅上。
The calls were long, sometimes lasting hours.
通话时间很长，有时甚至持续几个小时。
Jake says his summaries were, unsurprisingly, pretty exhaustive.
杰克说，不出所料，他的总结相当详尽。
He didn't want to leave a single detail out, until, when he was 12 or so, he stopped being completely honest with his grandma about what he was reading because he started feeling like there was something off about the books he liked.
他不想遗漏任何一个细节，直到他12岁左右的时候，他不再对奶奶完全诚实地谈论他正在读的书，因为他开始觉得他喜欢的书有些不对劲。
He worried they were too girly.
他担心她们太少女了。
The ones where I was like, oh, these were the ones that really caused a crisis for me, there was this series of books called Twitches, which were about twin witches.
我当时想，哦，这些才是真正给我带来危机的，有一系列叫做《Twitches》的书，是关于双胞胎女巫的。
[LAUGHS] And they were like-- the covers were like those old-school, early 2000s photoshoots where they would do stock image photoshoots.
[笑]他们就像——封面就像那些老式的 2000 年代早期照片，他们会拍摄库存照片。
It wasn't like an illustration.
这不像插图。
It was like a photoshoot of two teenage girls.
这就像两个十几岁女孩的照片。
Matching outfits.
配套的服装。
Jake Exactly.
杰克 没错。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
It was about these two girls who found out that they were adopted and that they were twins.
这是关于这两个女孩发现她们被收养并且是双胞胎的故事。
They're also witches.
她们也是女巫。
When they meet, they develop magical powers.
当他们相遇时，他们产生了神奇的力量。
And I was like, well, I literally have to read these.
我当时想，好吧，我真的必须读这些。
But I don't want to tell my grandma that I'm reading a book about two teenage girls that have magical powers and like boys.
但我不想告诉奶奶我正在读一本关于两个拥有神奇力量并且喜欢男孩的十几岁女孩的书。
And also, I don't want to carry this book around at school.
而且，我不想在学校随身携带这本书。
And so I think that's when I started editing a little bit and--
所以我想那是我开始编辑一点的时候——
And why didn't you want your grandma to know you were reading those books?
你为什么不想让你的奶奶知道你正在读那些书？
Because I think I knew it was speaking to something.
因为我想我知道它在说话。
I think I was also probably starting to realize-- because I also was a pretty effeminate child.
我想我也可能开始意识到——因为我也是一个相当女性化的孩子。
So at this point, I was already getting called gay.
所以在这一点上，我已经被称为同性恋了。
So I think this was all kind of interwoven.
所以我认为这一切都是交织在一起的。
And so do you remember intentionally deciding to start changing details?
那么您还记得有意决定开始更改细节吗？
I remember in Twitches, I think I changed their gender.
我记得在 Twitches 中，我想我改变了他们的性别。
I think I made them both boys.
我想我让他们都是男孩。
I think I changed their powers.
我想我改变了他们的权力。
I think I said that one could move things with their mind and that one was strong.
我想我说过，一个人可以用意念移动事物，而且这个人很坚强。
And the details you were changing, it was to make it align with what you thought a straight boy would be reading?
你改变的细节是为了让它符合你认为异性恋男孩会读到的内容？
I guess so.
大概吧。
I was like, I'll change these details because they don't affect the plot.
我想，我会改变这些细节，因为它们不会影响情节。
And so I was like, I'm not going to change the plot.
所以我想，我不会改变情节。
I'm just going to change the details around it to make it a little bit more masc.
我只是要改变它周围的细节，让它变得更有质感。
So it's going to be-- instead of being able to passively stop it through clairvoyance and telepathy, it's like, they use their physical powers of telekinesis and strength.
所以，他们不会通过千里眼和心灵感应来被动地阻止它，而是会使用他们的心灵遥感和力量的身体力量。
And do you think you were convincing?
你认为你的说法有说服力吗？
Do you think that she thought that you were straight at the time?
你认为她当时认为你是异性恋吗？
No. I don't think that anyone ever thought I was straight.
不，我不认为有人认为我是异性恋。
It's really sweet and really sad to imagine you putting on this disguise by changing the details for your grandma.
想象你通过改变祖母的细节来进行这种伪装，真是甜蜜又悲伤。
It's like you're wearing a fake mustache, but it's actually askew, and you have no idea.
就好像你戴着假胡子，但实际上它是歪的，而你却浑然不觉。
And everyone's like, that's not a real mustache.
每个人都说，那不是真正的胡子。
Yeah, 100%.
是的，100%。
And as though like if I'd been sitting here talking to you for an hour and a half, and then just suddenly put the mustache on and expect you to think it was real.
就好像我坐在这里和你聊了一个半小时，然后突然留起了小胡子，希望你认为这是真的。
You've been talking--
你一直在说——
Right.
对。
Jake --to me without a mustache this whole time.
杰克——对我来说一直没有胡子。
And I also think this kind of led to the end of the book club a little bit, was when I started to be like, I don't want to read these books and have to tell my grandma.
我也认为这在某种程度上导致了读书俱乐部的结束，当时我开始想，我不想读这些书，必须告诉我的奶奶。
But you know what I mean?
但你知道我的意思吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Jake Also, she beat the cancer.
杰克 另外，她战胜了癌症。
Congratulations.
恭喜。
So I was less scared about her dying.
所以我对她的死不再那么害怕。
Oh, so you were like, OK, it's not an emergency.
哦，所以你说，好吧，这不是紧急情况。
It took Jake a few more years to formally come out to his family.
杰克又花了几年时间才正式向家人出柜。
He was 16.
他16岁。
And he told me, he thinks he remembers his grandma mentioning his coming out once and saying that she loved him.
他告诉我，他想他记得他的奶奶提到过他有一次出柜，并说她爱他。
But it was such a non-issue that he can't even really remember specifics.
但这根本不是什么问题，他甚至记不起具体细节。
Jake's sexuality, that is not the lore drop in this story.
杰克的性取向，这不是这个故事中的传说。
There was one, but it came years later, when Jake was in his 30s.
曾经有过一次，但那是几年后的事了，当时杰克才 30 多岁。
By then, his grandma had developed dementia and then got really sick.
那时，他的奶奶已经患上了痴呆症，然后病得很重。
Jake made a point to visit her every month or two.
杰克每隔一两个月就去看望她一次。
And then one day--
然后有一天——
I was visiting my grandma, and she was in in-home hospice.
我去拜访我的祖母，她正在家庭临终关怀医院。
And it was kind of sad.
这有点悲伤。
And she was on the first floor in the living room.
她在一楼的客厅里。
And then I went up to my mom's old bedroom.
然后我去了我妈妈的旧卧室。
And my mom's bedroom, there's this radiator that always was just covered in my grandma's books.
我妈妈的卧室里有一个散热器，里面总是堆满了我奶奶的书。
And I remember being in-- I think I probably went up to the room to take a breather or something.
我记得我当时在——我想我可能是去房间休息一下什么的。
And I remember seeing the books on the windowsill and on the radiator.
我记得在窗台和暖气片上看到过书。
He saw titles he remembered from when he was a kid, the book she'd recapped for him.
他看到了他小时候记得的书名，也就是她为他复述的那本书。
And I remember I picked up one of the books and thumbed through it and found a sex scene.
我记得我拿起其中一本书翻阅起来，发现了一个性爱场景。
And I was like, was she reading-- they're romance novels.
我当时想，她在读吗——它们是浪漫小说。
These were sexy books.
这些都是性感的书。
And so I picked them up, and I started flipping through them.
于是我把它们捡起来，开始翻阅它们。
And I just remember it being graphic in the way that it described genitals.
我只记得它描述生殖器的方式很生动。
It wasn't just like, and then we went to the bedroom.
不仅仅是这样，然后我们去了卧室。
It was like, [BLEEP].
就像，[BLEEP]。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
It was like that.
就是这样。
And I was like, oh, oh, OK.
我当时想，哦，哦，好吧。
I was like, are those all smut?
我当时想，这些都是肮脏的吗？
Yes, Jake's grandma was an avid reader of smut.
是的，杰克的奶奶是色情内容的狂热读者。
Jake sat there laughing out loud to himself as he started googling his grandma's favorite authors-- Jayne Ann Krentz, who wrote the book Grand Passion, in which protagonist Max Fortune heads to a B&B in search of his hidden inheritance, only to find himself irresistibly compelled by the attractive innkeeper, Cleopatra.
杰克坐在那儿，自顾自地笑了起来，他开始在谷歌上搜索他奶奶最喜欢的作家——杰恩·安·克伦茨（Jayne Ann Krentz），他写了《伟大的激情》（Grand Passion）一书，书中的主角马克斯·福琼（Max Fortune）前往一家民宿寻找他隐藏的遗产，却发现自己不可抗拒地被迷人的旅馆老板克利奥帕特拉（Cleopatra）所吸引。
JD Robb-- she wrote the book Naked in Death, where a woman somehow works through her past trauma by sleeping with a hot and mysterious Irish businessman.
JD Robb——她写了《裸体死亡》一书，书中一名女子通过与一位性感而神秘的爱尔兰商人上床，以某种方式治愈了过去的创伤。
And another one from Jayne Ann Krentz that Jake remembered his grandma recapping to him, Smoke and Mirrors, the one about the librarian traveling around trying to solve her half-sister's murder with the help of a guy she meets along the way.
还有杰恩·安·克伦茨（Jayne Ann Krentz）的另一部作品《烟与镜》，杰克记得他的祖母曾向他重述过，这部作品讲述了图书管理员四处旅行，试图在途中遇到的一个人的帮助下解决她同父异母妹妹被谋杀的故事。
That was the way Jake remembered it, anyway.
无论如何，这就是杰克记忆中的样子。
But now, reading the book--
但现在，读这本书——
The whole book is just her wanting to have sex with this man.
整本书就是她想和这个男人发生性关系。
That's the entire book.
这就是整本书。
The murder is almost never mentioned.
这起谋杀案几乎从未被提及。
They're just walking around this town, trying to find out if the murder-- the entire time, she's just like, this man is so hot.
他们只是在这个镇上走来走去，试图找出谋杀案——自始至终，她都在想，这个男人太性感了。
She literally had to make up so much plot.
她真的必须编造这么多情节。
This is so central to the plot.
这是情节的核心。
I remember thinking, like, damn, Grandma doesn't give that much of a shit about the narrative.
我记得我当时想，妈的，奶奶根本不关心这个故事。
And I'm like, no, Grandma was making up a narrative because half of the plot was about these people having sex.
我想，不，奶奶正在编造一个故事，因为一半的情节是关于这些人做爱的。
So you want me to read this passage?
那么你想让我读一下这段话吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Jake OK.
杰克 好的。
In this part of the book, they just tried to break into a house to look for clues.
在本书的这一部分中，他们只是试图闯入一所房子寻找线索。
And an unseen person chased them out of the house, and they had to run away.
一个看不见的人把他们赶出了家门，他们只得逃跑。
And now, they're back at his place, and they're safe.
现在，他们回到了他的住处，并且安全了。
OK.
好的。
"Thomas shrugged out of his jacket and came to stand behind her.
“托马斯耸耸肩脱下夹克，站到她身后。
Their eyes met in the mirror.
他们的目光在镜子里相遇。
Unlike her, he looked terrific, she thought, hard, tough, and totally in control.
与她不同的是，他看起来棒极了，她想，坚强、坚韧，而且完全能掌控一切。
She had to fight an irresistible urge to turn and put her head into his chest.
她必须克制住一种不可抗拒的冲动，想要转身把头埋进他的怀里。
His hands closed over her shoulders.
他的双手搭在她的肩膀上。
'Take it easy.
” 放轻松。
You're just feeling the aftershock of the adrenaline.
你只是感受到肾上腺素的余震。
It'll fade.' 'I know.'
它会褪色的。 '我知道。'
The weight of his hands was not having the calming, soothing effect he probably intended.
他双手的重量并没有产生他可能想要的平静、舒缓的效果。
She suddenly wanted to do a lot more than just put her head down on his shoulder.
她突然想做很多事情，而不仅仅是把头靠在他的肩上。
She looked at his mouth in the mirror and wondered what would it be like to kiss him, wondered how his mouth would feel on other parts of her body." [LAUGHS]
她看着镜子里他的嘴，想知道亲吻他会是什么感觉，想知道他的嘴在她身体的其他部位会有什么感觉。” [笑]
Let's stop there, because we can't conjure an image on the radio.
我们就到此为止吧，因为我们无法在收音机中想象出图像。
What went through your head when you realized that?
当你意识到这一点时，你的脑子里想到了什么？
It really tickled me.
真让我心痒痒。
I was like-- because I remembered that feeling of being so afraid towards the end of the time when we were calling each other, that I would out myself, or just feeling-- once I became a sexual person myself or pubescent myself, those conversations about those books being like, ah!
我当时想——因为我记得在我们互相打电话的最后时刻，我感到非常害怕，我会自己出柜，或者只是感觉——一旦我自己成为一个有性欲的人或自己进入青春期，那些关于这些书的对话就像，啊！
Don't see me!
别看见我！
Yeah.
是的。
Jake And realizing she probably felt a version of that the whole time.
杰克意识到她可能一直都有这种感觉。
Totally.
完全。
Jake Or it was just having to constantly think about, OK, don't talk about when they had sex in the kitchen.
杰克：或者只是必须不断地想，好吧，不要谈论他们在厨房做爱的事情。
But what happened to the plotline?
但剧情到底发生了什么？
I don't know.
我不知道。
It makes me feel closer to her that we were doing this song and dance.
我们一起做这首歌和舞蹈让我感觉和她更亲近。
I love the idea that you and your grandma were lying to one another three times a week in the name of bonding.
我喜欢你和你的祖母以亲密关系的名义每周互相撒谎三次的想法。
[LAUGHS] Exactly.
[笑]没错。
It's like, "lie" almost feels like too harsh of a word.
就像“谎言”这个词感觉太刺耳了。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Jake It's just like two people translating what's going on in their lives for the other person, you know?
杰克：这就像两个人为另一个人翻译他们生活中发生的事情，你知道吗？
Right, it's a version of what we all do all the time.
是的，这是我们一直在做的事情的一个版本。
100%, you know?
100%，你知道吗？
When we talk to our parents about our relationship, you might not be like, well, I think I might break up with him because the sex is not great.
当我们和父母谈论我们的关系时，你可能不会说，好吧，我想我可能会和他分手，因为性生活不太好。
Like, you might-- ah, I'm just not feeling it.
就像，你可能——啊，我只是没有感觉。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
We do these edits all the time, you know?
我们一直在进行这些编辑，你知道吗？
Yeah, like, yeah, we were fighting, and then we made up.
是的，就像，是的，我们吵架了，然后我们和好了。
Yeah.
是的。
[LAUGHS] Exactly.
[笑]没错。
Aviva DeKornfeld Jake's grandma died this past June.
阿维瓦·德科恩菲尔德·杰克 (Aviva DeKornfeld Jake) 的祖母于今年六月去世。
She was 84.
她84岁了。
Jake and his grandma and their book club, it was never really about the books, obviously.
显然，杰克和他的奶奶以及他们的读书俱乐部从来都不是真正与书籍有关的。
The point was to spend time with one another, to feel close.
重点是花时间与彼此相处，感觉亲密。
And it worked.
它奏效了。
It worked so well that Jake still gets to spend time with her, even now, even in some very unexpected moments.
它的效果非常好，以至于杰克仍然可以花时间和她在一起，即使是现在，即使是在一些非常意想不到的时刻。
I've been watching Heated Rivalry, which is this HBO Max show that's based on a romance novel, but it's a gay romance novel.
我一直在看《激烈的竞争》，这是一部 HBO Max 的电视剧，改编自言情小说，但它是一部同性恋言情小说。
It's about hockey players.
这是关于曲棍球运动员的。
And I'm loving it.
我很喜欢它。
It's my favorite show right now.
这是我现在最喜欢的节目。
And I'm kind of laughing to myself as I watch it because I'm like, I come from a line of people who enjoy this.
当我观看它时，我有点笑自己，因为我想，我来自一群喜欢这个的人。
This is like-- you know?
这就像——你知道吗？
It's like--
这就像——
Not that I'm think-- let's be clear to the listener.
我不是这么想的——让我们向听众澄清一下。
I'm not thinking about my grandma, necessarily, when I'm watching a lot of those scenes.
当我观看很多这样的场景时，我不一定会想到我的祖母。
But when I think about it now, I'm like, there is something kind of nice about that, I guess.
但当我现在想起来的时候，我想，我想这有一些好处。
I found my version of it that I enjoy.
我找到了我喜欢的版本。
There was a period of time in my life where I was terrified of my grandma knowing I was gay, and now I'm watching gay smut on HBO.
在我生命中有一段时间，我很害怕奶奶知道我是同性恋，现在我在 HBO 上观看同性恋色情内容。
And I'm like, the gene that makes me like this comes from her.
我想，让我这样的基因来自她。
Sometimes the new lore drop isn't some big revelation.
有时，新的知识掉落并不是什么大的启示。
Sometimes it's just a funny little detail.
有时这只是一个有趣的小细节。
You get to enjoy it and carry on with your day.
您可以享受它并继续您的一天。
Aviva DeKornfeld is one of the producers of our show.
Aviva DeKornfeld 是我们节目的制作人之一。
Jake is a comedian.
杰克是一位喜剧演员。
He told a version of this story on stage, which is where we first heard about it.
他在舞台上讲述了这个故事的一个版本，这是我们第一次听说这个故事的地方。
His work and his tour dates are on Instagram, @jakewcornell.
他的作品和巡演日期都在 Instagram 上，@jakewcornell。
Coming up, one more reason to hate Mark Zuckerberg.
接下来，又一个讨厌马克·扎克伯格的理由。
This one, I bet you did not see coming.
我打赌你没有预见到这一点。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, new lore drop-- stories of people discovering information about their own lives that they did not know, information that makes them see things very differently.
今天的节目，新的传说掉落——人们发现他们不知道的关于自己生活的信息的故事，这些信息让他们以非常不同的方式看待事物。
OK, so just a quick reminder as the show continues, if we get separated and you can't find me, and somebody comes to get you, let's just review, what's the code word?
好的，随着节目的继续，我想快速提醒一下，如果我们走散了，你找不到我，而有人来找你，让我们回顾一下，暗号是什么？
That's right.
这是正确的。
Don't forget it.
别忘了。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Bully Pulpit.
第二幕，恶霸讲坛。
So reporter Ben Austen had a kind of lore drop happen to him recently.
记者本·奥斯汀最近发生了一件绝杀事件。
And it was not the clarifying kind of lore drop where everything suddenly makes sense, the world seems clearer.
这并不是那种澄清式的知识掉落，一切都突然变得有意义，世界似乎变得更加清晰。
It was kind of the opposite.
情况恰恰相反。
Ben's whole thing started over Facebook.
Ben 的整个事情都是从 Facebook 开始的。
Ben is one of those people who hates Facebook.
本是讨厌 Facebook 的人之一。
He hates, but also keeps looking at.
他讨厌，却也一直看着。
Maybe he's not the only person who ever does that.
也许他不是唯一一个这样做的人。
Ben had this rule.
本有这条规则。
He would accept friend requests, but he'd never make them.
他会接受好友请求，但他永远不会提出。
And then one day, he sees a post that his sixth grade teacher had died.
然后有一天，他看到一篇帖子说他的六年级老师去世了。
This was a teacher he loved and everybody loved, and all of his old classmates were sharing memories.
这是他爱的老师，大家都爱的老师，所有的老同学都在分享回忆。
I was sitting there, and I was like, man, these are my friends that I grew up with.
我坐在那里，心想，伙计，这些是和我一起长大的朋友。
And so I started friending them.
于是我开始和他们交朋友。
I broke my rule.
我打破了我的规则。
And there was this kid Chaka that I hung out with, and this girl Alana and Malcolm Speller.
还有和我一起出去玩的孩子查卡，还有女孩阿拉娜和马尔科姆·斯佩勒。
I just started friending all of them.
我刚刚开始和他们所有人交朋友。
And then there was this one other kid.
然后还有另一个孩子。
His name was Eddie.
他的名字叫艾迪。
And I paused.
我停了下来。
Should he reach out to Eddie?
他应该联系艾迪吗？
He'd gone to school with Eddie from since they were first learning to walk, initially, this Jewish day school in the South Side of Chicago.
自从埃迪第一次学走路起，他就和埃迪一起上学，最初是在芝加哥南区的一所犹太走读学校。
We both transferred to this public school in sixth grade.
我们都在六年级转学到这所公立学校。
And I remember hearing that his mom told the office lady at the Jewish day school, who told my mom that the reason Eddie transferred schools followed him to the public school, i.e. Ben Austen, meaning me.
我记得听说他的妈妈告诉了犹太走读学校的办公室女士，她告诉我妈妈埃迪转学的原因是跟随他去公立学校，即本·奥斯汀，指的是我。
I was the reason he transferred.
我是他转学的原因。
You're the reason he transferred to public school, and then you turned out to go to--
你是他转学到公立学校的原因，然后你去了——
Showed up.
出现了。
Ira Glass --the same public school.
Ira Glass——同一所公立学校。
Yeah.
是的。
So I was like, oh, he probably doesn't want to hear from me.
所以我想，哦，他可能不想收到我的消息。
But on the other hand, decades have passed, right?
但另一方面，几十年过去了，对吗？
They were adults now.
他们现在已经是成年人了。
They both had kids.
他们都有孩子。
This guy Eddie had actually become a rabbi.
埃迪这个家伙实际上已经成为了一名拉比。
And adult Ben didn't want adult Eddie to somehow see that he'd friended everybody else and then not him, and then be hurt by that.
成年的本不想让成年的艾迪不知何故看到他已经和其他所有人成为朋友，而不是他，然后因此而受到伤害。
So he sends the friend request.
于是他发送了好友请求。
Very quickly, he gets a message back.
很快，他就收到了回消息。
And there seemed to be a 2,000-word essay that he wrote me in response.
他似乎还给我写了一篇2000字的文章作为回应。
Let me ask you to read a little bit of that.
让我请你读一点其中的内容。
OK.
好的。
"Before I broadcast to the world via my 2,100 Facebook friends that you and I are friends, I need to get something off my chest.
“在我通过我的 2,100 位 Facebook 好友向全世界宣布你和我是朋友之前，我需要先吐露一些心声。
This may sound petty, but when we were boys at Akiba Schechter, I felt insecure in your presence.
这听起来可能微不足道，但当我们还是 Akiba Schechter 的孩子时，我在你面前感到不安全。
From nursery school through fifth grade, I recall feeling verbally and, at times, physically threatened by you.
从幼儿园到五年级，我记得在言语上，有时甚至在身体上受到你的威胁。
I'm not going to go into specific incidents, and I don't think it matters.
我不打算讨论具体事件，我认为这并不重要。
What matters is how I felt.
重要的是我的感受。
I'm sad to say it, but when I teach my own children and students in my synagogue about bullying, the image in the deepest recesses of my mind is a memory of feeling threatened by you."
说起来我很难过，但当我在犹太教堂里教导我自己的孩子和学生有关欺凌的问题时，我脑海最深处的形象就是一种受到你威胁的记忆。”
And then he goes on in his message to you to say, we were kids.
然后他在给你的信息中继续说，我们还是孩子。
I realize it wasn't your fault.
我意识到这不是你的错。
You were a kid.
你还是个孩子。
And then he says, but even as we got older, I have still carried with me all those years the burden of that experience.
然后他说，但即使我们长大了，这些年来我仍然背负着那段经历的负担。
And then let me ask you to read how he ends this message to you.
然后让我请你读一下他是如何结束给你的这条信息的。
All right.
好的。
Ooh.
哦。
"I need to release myself from the burden that has plagued me for so long.
“我需要摆脱困扰我这么久的负担。
I am sorry for throwing all of this at you over an innocent friend request.
我很抱歉因为一个无辜的好友请求而把这一切扔给你。
I apologize for holding back all these years and not trying harder to bring about healing in our relationship sooner.
我很抱歉这些年来我一直犹豫不决，没有更加努力地尽快治愈我们的关系。
If you are willing to acknowledge the hurt and the insecurity that I felt in your presence when we were boys more than 30 years ago, then I not only will forgive you, I will be happy to be your friend in all senses of the term.
如果你愿意承认30多年前我们还是孩子时我在你面前所感受到的伤害和不安全感，那么我不仅会原谅你，而且我会很高兴成为你各种意义上的朋友。
Best regards, Eddie."
最好的问候，埃迪。”
Oh, boy.
哦，男孩。
Honestly, I was like, fuck Facebook.
老实说，我当时想，去他妈的 Facebook。
But I also thought--
但我也想——
[CHUCKLING] Ira Glass Wait, you're blaming Facebook for this?
[咯咯笑] Ira Glass 等等，你把这件事归咎于 Facebook 吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I was like, why was I on that site?
我当时想，我为什么会出现在那个网站上？
Why did I participate?
我为什么参加？
It was like, I knew it, I knew it.
就像，我知道，我知道。
I mean, to be honest, the biggest thing I felt was-- I just couldn't think of something that I did to him.
我的意思是，说实话，我感受到的最大的事情是——我只是想不出我对他做了什么。
I don't have any recollection of a single incident of harming him or saying something cruel to him.
我不记得有任何伤害过他或对他说过残酷的话的事件。
And at the same time, I'm thinking, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
同时，我在想，这并不意味着它没有发生。
I'm also thinking, maybe I actually just don't-- I just wasn't aware of it, or I didn't recollect it.
我也在想，也许我其实只是不知道——我只是没有意识到，或者我不记得了。
So all those things are swirling through my head.
所以所有这些事情都在我的脑海中盘旋。
Before this, Ben had never thought of himself as a bully.
在此之前，本从未认为自己是一个恶霸。
He says, yeah, as a kid, he was unruly.
他说，是的，小时候他很不守规矩。
He spent a lot of time in the principal's office, but generally fun-loving.
他在校长办公室待了很多时间，但总的来说很有趣。
Nothing like what Eddie was describing.
与艾迪所描述的完全不同。
Still, Ben figures, he'll apologize, even though he doesn't remember doing anything.
尽管如此，本认为他还是会道歉，尽管他不记得做过任何事。
And so then what he ends up writing is this kind of carefully-worded non-apology apology.
所以他最后写的就是这种措辞谨慎的非道歉的道歉。
OK, he writes that he's deeply embarrassed.
好吧，他写道他感到非常尴尬。
He's sorry he made Eddie feel this way.
他很抱歉让艾迪有这样的感觉。
And then, he can't resist.
然后，他就无法抗拒。
He goes on to tell this story.
他继续讲述这个故事。
It's a memory he had from when they were little kids together.
这是他们小时候在一起的记忆。
Their teacher had taken the class out to a park across from the school.
他们的老师带着全班同学去了学校对面的一个公园。
They're sitting in a circle playing Duck Duck Goose, and this dog runs over, off leash, golden retriever mutt.
他们围成一圈坐着玩“鸭鸭鹅”游戏，这只狗没有拴绳，从一只金毛猎犬身上跑了过来。
Maybe it was a puppy, Ben thinks.
本想，也许那是一只小狗。
The most unintimidating dog you could ever see in your life, and I remember looking over and seeing Eddie's face as he saw the dog.
这是你一生中见过的最无畏的狗，我记得当埃迪看到这只狗时，我抬头看到了他的脸。
And he looked like he had just seen a ghost, just pure terror.
而且他看上去就像是见了鬼一样，纯粹是恐惧。
He stood up, and I remember shouting at him-- and maybe I'm inventing this memory, but this is how I remember it.
他站了起来，我记得对他大喊大叫——也许这段记忆是我编造的，但这就是我的记忆方式。
I said, Eddie, sit down.
我说，艾迪，坐下。
The dog isn't interested in you.
狗对你不感兴趣。
And he starts to run.
他开始奔跑。
And the dog, being a dog, gave chase.
狗，作为狗，追了上去。
And I said to Eddie [LAUGHS] that maybe I was a lot like that dog, you know?
我对艾迪说[笑]也许我很像那只狗，你知道吗？
Rambunctious, playful, and when things ran, I was the kind of person that would give chase.
我脾气暴躁，爱玩，遇到事情就会追上去。
Were you saying through that story, maybe I did something, but the problem was that you were too scared of me, and I meant you no harm, like that dog?
你是不是通过那个故事说，也许我做了什么，但问题是你太害怕我了，而我并没有伤害你的意思，就像那只狗一样？
Is that what you're trying to say with this story?
这就是你想通过这个故事表达的意思吗？
Totally.
完全。
[CHUCKLES] I was saying, I'm sorry.
[笑]我是说，对不起。
I don't want you to feel bad.
我不想让你感到难过。
And I'm willing to step up and say the things.
我愿意站出来说出这些话。
But then I also had to tell this damn story, which is like, it's actually not me.
但后来我也不得不讲述这个该死的故事，这就像，实际上不是我。
It's you.
是你。
You know?
你知道？
I'm not sure that's fair, but you were scared of things that weren't actually threatening you.
我不确定这是否公平，但你害怕的事情实际上并没有威胁到你。
Ben ended his message-- "I do understand.
本结束了他的信息——“我明白。
I do acknowledge.
我确实承认。
I am sorry.
对不起。
Sincerely, Ben." So he sends the message.
此致，本。”所以他发送了消息。
Eddie writes him right back.
埃迪立即给他回了信。
Again, it felt like the ping came back almost the moment I press Send.
再次，感觉就像是在我按下“发送”键的那一刻，ping 就回来了。
And he starts-- [HEBREW] "I give thanks to God who has given us life and sustained us and allowed us to reach this moment.
他开始——[希伯来语]“我感谢上帝赐予我们生命，支持我们，让我们到达这一刻。
Today is a joyful day.
今天是一个快乐的日子。
I can't adequately express how moved I am by your words.
我无法充分表达我对你的话的感动。
You are a mensch.
你是个男人。
I am stunned by the accuracy of your recollection of the 53rd Street Park, now the Harold Washington Park.
我对你对第 53 街公园（现为哈罗德·华盛顿公园）的准确记忆感到惊讶。
To be honest, I struggled with phobia of dogs well into adulthood."
说实话，我成年后一直在与狗恐惧症作斗争。”
And let me just interrupt you there.
让我打断一下你。
So then he sort of retells the story, too, but he doesn't seem to understand the point you were trying to make with your story, that maybe he was the one who was a little too scared of things that weren't scary.
然后他也重述了这个故事，但他似乎不明白你想用你的故事表达的观点，也许他是那个对不可怕的事情有点太害怕的人。
And then he writes that he feels like he can literally bury the tension between the two of you that went unacknowledged for more than 30 years.
然后他写道，他觉得自己可以真正地埋葬你们两人之间 30 多年来不被承认的紧张关系。
Just read his closing lines here.
在这里阅读他的结束语。
Yeah.
是的。
"I am grateful for this new chapter.
“我很感激这个新的篇章。
Needless to say at this point, but still important, I forgive you.
不用说，但仍然重要的是，我原谅你。
I look forward to staying in touch and enjoying a true friendship.
我期待着保持联系并享受真正的友谊。
Your friend, Eddie."
你的朋友，艾迪。”
At this point, do you feel like you might have done something to bully him?
此时，你是否觉得自己可能做了一些欺负他的事情？
Or do you actually not believe you did anything and it's all in his head?
或者你真的不相信你做了任何事而这一切都在他的脑海里？
Because I think both things are possible, right?
因为我认为这两件事都是可能的，对吗？
You really might have done something real that he could tell you, if you asked him directly.
如果你直接问他，你确实可能做了一些他可以告诉你的真实事情。
And you realize, oh, yeah, I did that.
你意识到，哦，是的，我做到了。
But it also might be possible he can't come up with any incident.
但也有可能他想不出任何事件。
What do you think is the truth?
你认为真相是什么？
Yeah, I actually don't know.
是的，我其实不知道。
I mean, the way you framed that, I have no fucking idea.
我的意思是，按照你的描述方式，我他妈的不知道。
This got stuck in Ben's head.
这件事深深地印在了本的脑海里。
What had he done, if anything?
如果有的话，他做了什么？
Had he been a good kid or a bad kid?
他是好孩子还是坏孩子？
Ben decided to find out.
本决定找出答案。
It seemed like a good question to ask a rabbi, right?
问拉比似乎是个好问题，对吧？
He prepared this report.
他准备了这份报告。
I reach out to Eddie, ask if he's game to revisit the messages we sent back and forth, our memories of each other.
我联系埃迪，问他是否愿意重温我们来回发送的信息，以及我们对彼此的记忆。
Sure, he says, it makes sense to do this in person.
当然，他说，亲自做这件事是有意义的。
He's in Florida, a short drive outside Boca Raton in a subdivision.
他在佛罗里达州，距博卡拉顿仅一小段车程的一个小区。
There's a palm tree right in front of us, sculpted bushes.
我们面前有一棵棕榈树，是雕刻的灌木丛。
There's also a house glowing with Christmas decorations, another displaying a Beware of Dog sign.
还有一栋房子挂满了圣诞装饰品，另一栋则挂着“小心狗”的标志。
I know neither can be Eddie's.
我知道两者都不可能是埃迪的。
His is the one in between.
他的就是介于两者之间的那个。
Eddie emerges from the front door.
艾迪从前门出现。
Thank you.
谢谢。
[CHUCKLES] Eddie Great to see you.
[笑]艾迪很高兴见到你。
Thanks for doing this.
感谢您这样做。
I hope you got some sun rays today.
我希望你今天能得到一些阳光。
I've seen Eddie only once since we were kids, and I'm struck by how much he looks like the kid I remember, even though he's now about 6 feet with gray in his goatee.
自从我们还是孩子的时候起，我只见过埃迪一次，他看起来多么像我记忆中的那个孩子，这让我很震惊，尽管他现在大约有 6 英尺高，山羊胡子已经花白了。
He's wearing a yarmulke.
他戴着圆顶小帽。
He's also got this pouch attached to his belt for his phone.
他的腰带上还系着一个装手机的小袋。
He leads me inside.
他带我进去。
This is my wife, Ariella.
这是我的妻子，阿里埃拉。
Ben Austen Hi.
本·奥斯汀嗨。
Hi, nice to meet you.
你好，很高兴认识你。
Welcome, welcome.
欢迎，欢迎。
I've heard a lot about you.
我听说过很多关于你的事。
Hey, good to meet you.
嘿，很高兴认识你。
His teenage daughter is home.
他十几岁的女儿在家。
His other two kids are out in the world.
他的另外两个孩子已经在外面的世界了。
He says one is about to get married.
他说有一个人快要结婚了。
He's been a rabbi at different congregations, but he tells me he now works as a chaplain at a hospital.
他曾在不同的教会担任拉比，但他告诉我，他现在在一家医院担任牧师。
He likes it because he gets to tend to people of all religions.
他喜欢它，因为他可以照顾所有宗教信仰的人。
Eddie guides me into the dining room.
艾迪带我走进餐厅。
Laid out on the table, there are all these photographs, nearly every one of them of us.
桌子上摆着所有这些照片，几乎是我们的每一张照片。
All right.
好的。
I'm a little embarrassed of seeing all these things.
看到这些事情我有点尴尬。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Ben Austen It catches me off guard.
本·奥斯汀 这让我措手不及。
Eddie's been preparing for this meeting.
艾迪一直在为这次会议做准备。
We went to the same high school, too.
我们也上同一所高中。
Our yearbook is open to my senior picture.
我们的年鉴上有我的高级照片。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
So that's you.
这就是你。
Ben Austen Aiyaiyai.
本·奥斯汀哎呀呀呀。
This--
这——
And that's me.
这就是我。
Ben Austen I just-- this is--
本·奥斯汀我只是——这是——
And your wife is in here.
你的妻子也在这儿。
Ben Austen Yeah, she is.
本·奥斯汀 是的，她是。
My wife Danielle also graduated high school with us.
我的妻子丹妮尔也和我们一起高中毕业。
Obviously, I kept in better touch with her.
显然，我和她保持了更好的联系。
Then Eddie points to a faded photo I've never seen before.
然后艾迪指着一张我以前从未见过的褪色照片。
It's of little kids in a classroom around a table, eating cupcakes.
这是教室里的小孩子围着桌子吃纸杯蛋糕。
There's Eddie standing, and not far from him, me.
埃迪站在那里，离他不远，就是我。
1977, you and I both turned six.
1977年，你我都六岁了。
So May was my sixth birthday, and this is my sixth birthday party.
所以五月是我的六岁生日，这是我的六岁生日聚会。
So that's me with a crown.
这就是戴着王冠的我。
And that's you, of course.
当然，那就是你。
Yeah, front and center.
是的，前面和中间。
Both of us are smiling as wide as can be.
我们俩都笑容满面。
But I know for more than 40 years of Eddie's life, he looked at a photo like this one and was haunted by me.
但我知道，在艾迪 40 多年的人生中，他看着这样一张照片，就一直被我所困扰。
Was he right to feel that way?
他的这种感觉对吗？
Have I been wrong all these years about who I am?
难道这些年来我对自己的认识都错了吗？
Eddie tells me about the moment he first heard from me again.
埃迪向我讲述了他第一次再次收到我消息的那一刻。
He was just down the hall here, in the kitchen, making dinner for his family.
他就在走廊那头的厨房里，正在为家人做晚饭。
I picked up my phone and was getting the table set and whatever, or waiting for dinner to warm up.
我拿起手机，准备摆桌子什么的，或者等待晚餐热起来。
And I saw a friend request from Ben Austen, and it stopped me cold, in a strange sense that it surprises me, even to this day.
我看到了本·奥斯汀的好友请求，这让我冷了下来，从一种奇怪的意义上说，它让我感到惊讶，即使到了今天。
Because I mean, I've encountered a lot of people throughout my life.
因为我的意思是，我一生中遇到了很多人。
And something was different with you, and that's my memory of you.
你身上有一些不一样的东西，那就是我对你的记忆。
I felt threatened by you.
我感到受到你的威胁。
I felt you were a bully towards me.
我觉得你欺负我。
All right.
好的。
[SIGHS] This is why I came down here.
[叹气]这就是我来这里的原因。
This is a way harder question for me to ask you and one that I've probably avoided.
对我来说，这是一个更难问你的问题，而且我可能会回避这个问题。
I know I've avoided before.
我知道我以前一直在逃避。
And what did I do?
我做了什么？
How was I your bully?
我怎么是你的恶霸？
Yeah, I'm glad to have the opportunity to discuss it.
是的，我很高兴有机会讨论这个问题。
I didn't want to--
我不想——
Yeah, no. Eddie --burden you about petty stuff.
是的，不。埃迪——让你为一些小事烦恼。
I mean, we're talking about stuff that happened between us when we were six, seven, eight years old.
我的意思是，我们正在谈论我们六、七、八岁时发生在我们之间的事情。
And here we are now, almost on the cusp of being 55 years old.
现在我们已经快到 55 岁了。
So this is 50 years, almost, in the past.
所以这已经是差不多 50 年过去了。
So it seems petty.
所以显得很小气。
But do you remember what you called me in those early years?
但你还记得早年你是怎么称呼我的吗？
Not at all, Eddie.
一点也不，艾迪。
And I'm-- I almost want to run out of the room.
我几乎想跑出房间。
All right, so you called me Eddie Spaghetti.
好吧，所以你叫我艾迪·意大利面条。
My response right then-- and I feel terrible for saying this-- I want to laugh.
我当时的反应——我觉得这么说很糟糕——我想笑。
I mean, I definitely could see myself saying this.
我的意思是，我绝对可以看到自己这么说。
I'm not denying that.
我并不否认这一点。
But in the absence of any memory of what I did to Eddie, I had imagined-- I don't know-- something so much worse.
但由于我不记得我对艾迪做了什么，我想象过——我不知道——更糟糕的事情。
I came all this way to Florida for a goofy rhyme?
我千里迢迢来到佛罗里达就是为了听一首傻乎乎的歌？
For the six-year-old version of me, I was hypersensitive.
对于六岁的我来说，我是高度敏感的。
Every time you called me Eddie Spaghetti, I burst into tears, and the rest of the class would laugh.
每次你叫我艾迪·意大利面时，我都会泪流满面，班上其他人都会笑。
Mark would laugh, Ari would laugh, and other people would join in calling me Eddie Spaghetti.
马克会笑，阿里也会笑，其他人也会一起叫我埃迪·意大利面。
You're pointing at the yearbook pictures here of these kids.
你指的是这些孩子的年鉴照片。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Well, I'm like-- Eddie It's utterly silly.
嗯，我想——埃迪，这太傻了。
But as a six-year-old kid, I felt like I was the-- I was the one everyone made fun of in class.
但作为一个六岁的孩子，我觉得我是班上每个人都取笑的人。
I do get it.
我明白了。
It's about what a hard time Eddie had back then, how much he felt like an outsider, and how I was one of the kids who made it harder.
这是关于埃迪当时经历的艰难时期，他感觉自己是多么的局外人，以及我是如何让事情变得更加困难的孩子之一。
But it's also just so weird, the two of us sitting here, two men in our 50s, and hearing him repeat what I said when I was six or seven.
但这也太奇怪了，我们两个人坐在这里，两个五十多岁的男人，听他重复我六七岁时说过的话。
I make a nervous joke about spaghetti being positive.
我紧张地开玩笑说意大利面条呈阳性。
It's noodly flexibility.
这是非常灵活的。
Plus, it's delicious.
另外，它很好吃。
Those are the kinds of things I say to people, always have.
这些是我对人们说的话，一直都是这样。
I recognize that how you react to Eddie's words, what you feel right now about him or me, probably depends on your relationship to your own past.
我认识到你对埃迪的话的反应，你现在对他或我的感觉，可能取决于你与自己过去的关系。
Maybe you're remembering things being done to you or doing things to someone else.
也许你记得别人对你做了什么，或者对别人做了什么。
Or maybe you're the type who's forgotten all this sort of stuff, and that's exactly where you want to keep it.
或者也许您是那种忘记了所有此类内容的人，而这正是您想要将其保留的地方。
Eddie pauses, and I think he's done.
艾迪停了下来，我想他已经完成了。
That's all he's got.
这就是他所拥有的一切。
I guess I wasn't such a bad kid after all.
我想我毕竟不是一个坏孩子。
But then Eddie looks down at a yellow legal pad.
但随后埃迪低头看着一本黄色的便笺簿。
It's covered in handwritten notes.
它被手写笔记覆盖。
Oof, there's definitely more.
哦，肯定还有更多。
It must have been first or second grade because most of us had those metal lunchboxes, usually with themes from TV shows on them.
那肯定是一年级或二年级的事，因为我们大多数人都有那些金属午餐盒，上面通常印有电视节目的主题。
And what did you have?
你有什么？
Eddie My lunchbox was the $6 Million Man with--
埃迪 我的午餐盒是价值 600 万美元的男人，他有——
Awesome.
太棒了。
Eddie --Steve Austin, played by Lee Majors.
艾迪——史蒂夫·奥斯汀，由李·梅杰斯饰演。
This turns out to be a story about a time I did something that seems worse-- physically worse, at least.
事实证明，这是一个关于我有一次做了一些看起来更糟糕的事情的故事——至少在身体上更糟糕。
He says, when we were six, I kicked his ass.
他说，当我们六岁的时候，我踢了他的屁股。
I'm not sure why he didn't lead with that.
我不知道他为什么不带头这样做。
Here's how he remembers it going down.
以下是他记忆中的情况。
So it's lunchtime.
所以现在是午餐时间。
The teacher is telling everybody to get their lunch boxes and line up.
老师正在告诉大家拿好午餐盒并排队。
And I pull my metal lunchbox off, and someone else's metal lunchbox falls on you, falls on your shoulder.
我把我的金属饭盒拉下来，别人的金属饭盒落在你身上，落在你的肩膀上。
Maybe you had a bruise the next day, but what I do remember is, you then just started whacking me.
也许第二天你就受了瘀伤，但我记得的是，你然后就开始殴打我。
Like, I hit you?
比如，我打你了？
Eddie Yeah, hitting me multiple times.
埃迪 是的，打了我很多次。
And I really remember seeing your eyes and seeing rage in your eyes.
我真的记得看到你的眼睛，看到你眼中的愤怒。
So I physically-- Eddie Physically whacking me.
所以我用身体——埃迪用身体殴打我。
And then finally, a teacher came over and separated us, and I don't remember anything else that day.
最后，一位老师过来把我们分开，那天我不记得其他事情了。
I just remember you hitting me, and I remember the rage in your eyes.
我只记得你打了我，我还记得你眼中的愤怒。
He says he wasn't seriously injured or anything.
他说他没有受重伤或其他什么。
We were both just little kids.
我们都只是小孩子。
I don't recall any of this.
我不记得这些了。
Well, I'm definitely sorry for that.
嗯，我对此感到非常抱歉。
I don't quite know what to make of it.
我不太知道该怎么办。
What does it mean that I did that?
我这样做意味着什么？
I think, Eddie, I probably fought a lot at those times.
我想，艾迪，那些时候我可能打了很多架。
It's terrible I beat Eddie up.
太可怕了，我打败了艾迪。
This doesn't seem totally out of character for me.
这对我来说似乎并不完全不符合我的性格。
I mean, I remember on the playground back then kids throwing a ball in my face.
我的意思是，我记得当时在操场上，孩子们向我脸上扔球。
I'd get mad and throw it back in theirs, and then we'd go on playing.
我会生气，把它扔回他们的，然后我们继续玩。
What I don't get is why what I did to Eddie that day stood out so much from the other chaos of childhood around us?
我不明白的是，为什么那天我对埃迪所做的事情与我们周围童年的其他混乱相比如此突出？
In the middle school Eddie and I both attended, it wasn't uncommon for one kid to say to another, after school, meaning at 3:30 in the parking lot or on the playground, we're going to fight.
在埃迪和我都上的中学里，放学后，一个孩子对另一个孩子说，也就是下午 3:30 在停车场或操场上，我们要打架，这并不罕见。
It was sometimes said to me.
有时有人对我这么说。
When we got to high school, I tried to avoid fights as much as possible.
当我们进入高中时，我尽量避免打架。
The stakes were too high.
赌注太高了。
I saw kids at my school swing bats, golf clubs, once a hatchet.
我看到孩子们在学校里挥舞球棒、高尔夫球杆，甚至一度是斧头。
Our junior year, two guys jumped me for a gold chain.
我们大三的时候，有两个人向我要了一条金链子。
My wife says when I showed up at school that week with a broken nose and two black eyes, it was the first time she noticed me, like noticed me as a potential mate.
我妻子说，当我那周出现在学校，鼻子骨折，两只眼睛也黑时，这是她第一次注意到我，就像注意到我作为一个潜在的伴侣一样。
I'm not sure what that says about either of us.
我不确定这对我们俩来说意味着什么。
I remember these moments, but I don't feel plagued by them, not in the way Eddie was by me.
我记得这些时刻，但我并不感到被它们困扰，不像埃迪对我那样。
But I realize, in saying all that, part of me is defending myself, little kid Ben.
但我意识到，在说这一切时，我的一部分是在为自己辩护，小本。
I'm trying to prove I wasn't a bully.
我正在努力证明我不是一个恶霸。
Later, I even talk with an elementary school principal in Chicago to see whether my actions back then check their four boxes of bullying.
后来，我什至与芝加哥的一位小学校长交谈，看看我当时的行为是否检查了他们的欺凌行为的四个框。
I did check at least two.
我确实检查了至少两个。
Eddie has one more memory on his notepad that he wants me to hear.
艾迪的记事本上还有一段他想让我听的记忆。
As I recall, we're at the 53rd Street Park.
我记得我们在 53 街公园。
Our teacher took us out on a nice day.
天气好的时候，老师带我们出去玩。
We're sitting, playing Duck Duck Goose.
我们坐着玩鸭鸭鹅。
And--
还有——
He repeats the same story I shared with him in our Facebook exchange.
他重复了我在 Facebook 交流中与他分享的同一个故事。
It starts just as I remember, but with a different conclusion.
故事的开头和我记忆中的一模一样，但结局却不同。
It's that story of how when we were seven or eight, and our class went to the park, a dog was off leash.
这个故事讲的是当我们七八岁的时候，我们班去公园，一只狗没有拴绳。
I had a serious phobia, and I just hightailed it.
我有严重的恐惧症，而且我只是匆匆忙忙。
And I ran screaming.
我尖叫着跑了。
I don't know if it was that time, but I know there were other times that I ran across Hyde Park Boulevard, which is a busy street with buses and cars and trucks, back to the safe side, where the school building was.
我不知道是不是那个时候，但我知道还有其他时候，我跑过海德公园大道，那条繁忙的街道上有公共汽车、汽车和卡车，回到安全的地方，即学校大楼所在的地方。
And I remember being laughed at by you and other students in the class.
我记得被你和班上其他学生嘲笑。
I'm not saying you're the only one, but I perceived you as the ringleader.
我并不是说你是唯一的，但我认为你是头目。
Man.
男人。
I mean, in the story I told, it was the opposite of laughing.
我的意思是，在我讲的故事中，这与笑相反。
Yeah.
是的。
Ben Austen Like, I was trying to protect you.
就像本·奥斯汀一样，我是想保护你。
Of course.
当然。
Ben Austen That's the part we remember so differently.
本·奥斯汀 这就是我们记忆中如此不同的部分。
Maybe I've held on to my version because in it, I've cast myself as the good guy.
也许我一直坚持我的版本，因为在其中，我把自己塑造成好人。
I see his terror, and I'm the one calling out to him, telling him not to run.
我看到了他的恐惧，我就是那个呼唤他，告诉他不要逃跑的人。
Eddie describes another boy who teased him that day about how fast Eddie ran from the dog.
埃迪描述了那天另一个男孩取笑他埃迪逃离狗的速度有多快。
He could be a track star if there was always a dog behind him.
如果他身后总有一只狗，他可能会成为一名田径明星。
Eddie blamed me for that one, too.
埃迪也为此责怪我。
That's just how he saw me back then.
那时他就是这样看我的。
My memory over the arc of our young childhood was being teased by you.
我的童年记忆被你戏弄了。
And at some point, that became layered on my dog phobia.
在某些时候，这又成为我对狗的恐惧症。
And so, in a way, you became the dog.
所以，在某种程度上，你变成了狗。
[CHUCKLES] And I mean-- I became the dog?
[笑]我的意思是——我变成了狗？
For Eddie, I turned into this major figure in his life.
对于埃迪来说，我成了他生命中的重要人物。
I became this villain.
我成了这个恶棍。
Eddie tells me that when he changed schools, I wasn't the only reason, but I was part of it.
埃迪告诉我，当他转学时，我不是唯一的原因，但我是其中的一部分。
And he tells me how, decades later, he saw a photo.
他告诉我，几十年后，他如何看到一张照片。
It was from our 20th high school reunion.
这是我们第 20 次高中同学聚会的照片。
He spotted me in the background and was relieved he didn't go.
他在后台发现了我，庆幸自己没有走。
Then-- classic me-- I sent him that note which was way more clever than honest.
然后——典型的我——我给他发了那张便条，这封信比诚实更聪明。
He opened it at a cemetery after presiding over a funeral.
他在主持葬礼后在墓地打开了它。
He tells me it was like a spell was broken.
他告诉我，这就像咒语被打破了。
It set him free.
这让他自由了。
I think I just wept at that moment.
我想那一刻我只是哭了。
I was just so grateful to hear or to read that you had accepted what I wrote with such incredible grace.
我非常感激听到或读到你以如此令人难以置信的优雅接受了我所写的内容。
And I just felt blessed.
我只是感到很幸运。
It was big.
它很大。
It was a momentous time in my life.
那是我一生中的重要时刻。
I mean, it's a time that there's a before and there's an after.
我的意思是，这是一个有前有后的时期。
Eddie, wow, that's powerful and complicated.
艾迪，哇，这很强大而且很复杂。
Yeah, complicated.
是的，很复杂。
I decide to tell Eddie the truth, how in that message, the one that broke the spell, I had said sorry, but wasn't sure I had done anything wrong.
我决定告诉艾迪真相，在那条信息中，那个打破咒语的人，我说了对不起，但不确定我做错了什么。
My apology wasn't really an apology.
我的道歉并不是真正的道歉。
Did he understand that when he got it?
当他得到它的时候，他明白了吗？
I think I did, or at least, in retrospect, I did.
我想我做到了，或者至少回想起来，我做到了。
I remember sharing it with other people, and they said, did he really apologize?
我记得和其他人分享过，他们说，他真的道歉了吗？
And my sense is that perhaps not fully, but it was enough.
我的感觉是，也许不完全，但已经足够了。
It was what I needed at that moment.
这就是我当时所需要的。
And perhaps I chose to layer more apology on it than you were actually saying at the time.
也许我选择了比你当时实际所说的更多的道歉。
But you finished your note saying, I acknowledge, and I'm sorry.
但你写完便条说，我承认，我很抱歉。
And that's what I needed at that moment.
这就是我当时所需要的。
And that's what I embraced.
这就是我所接受的。
It's not just that Eddie and I see our memories of each other differently.
不仅仅是埃迪和我对彼此的记忆有不同的看法。
I realize we also have a different way of seeing the world.
我意识到我们看待世界的方式也不同。
Eddie, he's a man of faith.
艾迪，他是一个有信仰的人。
If it's enough, it's enough.
如果够了那就够了。
Not me.
不是我。
I can't help it.
我无能为力。
I need to set the record straight.
我需要澄清事实。
I'm embarrassed about the things I did and that I hurt you.
我为我所做的事情以及我伤害了你而感到尴尬。
But I'm also thinking that a lot of it is just, it's about being kids.
但我也认为很多事情只是与孩子有关。
Yeah.
是的。
Ben Austen And I don't think I was a bully in that sense.
本·奥斯汀 从这个意义上说，我不认为我是一个恶霸。
And I wonder if you think I am.
我想知道你是否认为我是。
No, absolutely.
不，绝对是。
Ben Austen I don't mean right now.
本·奥斯汀 我不是说现在。
I mean, when you think back on those moments.
我的意思是，当你回想起那些时刻时。
How can I look at this picture of six-year-old Ben smiling and--
我怎么能看到这张六岁的本微笑的照片——
But come on.
但来吧。
But you looked at that picture for years and saw the dog.
但你看了那张照片很多年，看到了那只狗。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
But this little six-year-old Ben, smiling, grinning.
但这个六岁的小本，微笑着，咧着嘴笑。
It's sweetest.
这是最甜蜜的。
I mean, look, you can pinch the cheeks practically.
我的意思是，看，你几乎可以捏住脸颊。
And--
还有——
But that feels like a revisionist history of how you saw that picture before--
但这感觉就像是你之前看到那张照片的修正主义历史——
But-- Ben Austen --that loomed in your imagination.
但是——本·奥斯汀——这在你的想象中隐约可见。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
But I am revising it now, but we as adults have a right to change the narrative.
但我现在正在修改它，但我们作为成年人有权改变叙述。
Eddie, I feel like your version of me today and over time is both, I'm way worse than I am, and I'm better than I am.
埃迪，我觉得你今天的我和随着时间的推移都是这样的，我比现在更糟糕，但我也比现在更好。
There's a little bit of way of when you're saying you're seeing my true self-- I guess what I'm saying is, you're also seeing these two extremes and I'm some-- I'm not really either of those.
当你说你看到了我的真实自我时，有一点点——我想我的意思是，你也看到了这两个极端，而我是——我实际上不是其中任何一个。
As he's pointing at this photo of me, it's like everything has flipped.
当他指着我的这张照片时，好像一切都翻转了。
I'm no longer even a bully when I was a kid.
我不再是小时候的恶霸了。
And as an adult, he's talking about me like this great liberator.
作为一个成年人，他像一位伟大的解放者一样谈论我。
He even compares me at one point to a famous rabbi who marched with Martin Luther King.
他甚至一度将我比作一位与马丁·路德·金一起游行的著名拉比。
In some ways, what I'm hearing is, I've sort of liberated you from this stuff, which just also feels-- yeah, I don't know.
在某些方面，我听到的是，我已经把你从这些东西中解放出来了，这也让人感觉——是的，我不知道。
That doesn't feel exactly me either.
我也不这么认为。
I mean, I try to do-- I want to do good.
我的意思是，我尝试做——我想做好事。
OK, yeah.
好的，是的。
Yeah, well, look, there's people come to me and say that time you spent with me in the hospital or that sermon you gave, it changed my life.
是的，好吧，听着，有人来找我，说你在医院和我一起度过的时光，或者你的布道，改变了我的生活。
And did I really do anything?
而我真的做了什么吗？
I did what I do every day.
我做了我每天做的事。
Every day, I visit people in the hospital.
我每天都会去医院探望病人。
Every day, I study some piece of scripture or Jewish wisdom and try to make some meaning out of it for a congregation.
每天，我都会学习一些经文或犹太智慧，并尝试从中为会众找出一些意义。
And sometimes it lands, and sometimes it doesn't.
有时它会着陆，有时则不会。
And with you, you did something good.
和你一起，你做了一些好事。
And I'm holding it up as good.
我仍然坚持下去。
How does that sound?
听起来怎么样？
It sounds like Eddie's a pretty good rabbi, and that he got what he needed from me.
听起来埃迪是一位非常好的拉比，而且他从我那里得到了他需要的东西。
See?
看？
I'm not such a bad guy.
我不是那么坏的人。
But I got something out of this, too.
但我也从中得到了一些东西。
It's clear Eddie and I didn't know each other well as kids, and certainly not as adults either.
很明显，埃迪和我小时候并不了解彼此，当然成年后也不太了解。
But here I am in Florida, in his subdivision, in his home.
但我现在在佛罗里达州，在他的分区，在他的家里。
I can see the books on his shelves.
我可以看到他书架上的书。
His kids' artwork is on the walls.
墙上挂着他孩子们的艺术作品。
He's got a tree out back in his yard.
他的院子里有一棵树。
It grows starfruit.
它种植杨桃。
Eddie's cut up slices for us to snack on.
埃迪切了片给我们吃。
And we've managed on this night to talk for hours.
今晚我们聊了几个小时。
I do feel responsible for my past actions, even the ones from way back that I can't remember.
我确实对自己过去的行为负责，即使是那些我不记得很久以前的行为。
As far as what to do about that, we now know each other, at least better.
至于该怎么做，我们现在彼此了解了，至少更加了解了。
That feels real.
那感觉很真实。
Maybe at this point in our lives, it's about the best we can do.
也许在我们生命的这个阶段，这是我们能做的最好的事情。
Amen.
阿门。
Ben Austen is a writer in Chicago.
本·奥斯汀是芝加哥的一位作家。
His most recent book is Correction, about the parole system.
他的最新著作是《纠正》，内容涉及假释制度。
Today's show was produced by Aviva DeKornfeld and Tobin Low.
今天的节目由 Aviva DeKornfeld 和 Tobin Low 制作。
The people who put together the show include Phia Bennin, Michael Comite, Suzanne Gaber, Cassie Howley, Chana Joffe-Walt, Seth Lind, Miki Meek, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Robin Reid, Nadia Reiman, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, and Christopher Swetala.
该剧的制作人包括 Phia Bennin、Michael Comite、Suzanne Gaber、Cassie Howley、Chana Joffe-Walt、Seth Lind、Miki Meek、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Robin Reid、Nadia Reiman、Anthony Roman、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp 和 Christopher Swetala。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks to Adam Ross at the Sewanee Review, Shin Yu Pai, Lauren Hirs, Sara Veldhuizen Stealy, Cara Dietz, Jodi Krumel, and Peter Kornbluh.
特别感谢 Sewanee Review 的 Adam Ross、Shin Yu Pai、Lauren Hirs、Sara Veldhuizen Stealy、Cara Dietz、Jodi Krumel 和 Peter Kornbluh。
Peter Lang-Stanton, who you heard at the beginning of the show talking about his parents being in the CIA, made a radio story years ago about his dad's involvement in covert operations in Laos during the Vietnam War.
彼得·朗-斯坦顿（Peter Lang-Stanton），你在节目开始时就听到他谈论他的父母在中央情报局工作，几年前，他在广播中讲述了他父亲在越南战争期间参与老挝秘密行动的故事。
We link to it from our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们从我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 链接到它。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
If you'd like to get bonus episodes, if you'd like to listen to all of our regular episodes without the ads, and most importantly, if you would like to help us keep making the show, please consider becoming a This American Life partner.
如果您想获得奖励剧集，如果您想收听我们所有没有广告的常规剧集，最重要的是，如果您想帮助我们继续制作节目，请考虑成为《This American Life》合作伙伴。
There are more than 20 bonus episodes waiting for you right now, including a brand new one where one of the people who adds music underneath our stories here on the show explains the sometimes very puzzling situations that she has gotten in with certain stories and her attempts to figure out what music to use.
现在有超过 20 集奖励剧集等着您，其中包括全新的一集，其中一位在节目中为我们的故事添加音乐的人解释了她在某些故事中遇到的有时非常令人费解的情况，以及她试图弄清楚该使用什么音乐的尝试。
Join at thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.
加入 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners。
That link is also in the show notes.
该链接也在节目注释中。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He told me this week he's switching from Netflix to HBO Max for one reason--
他本周告诉我，他将从 Netflix 转向 HBO Max，原因只有一个——
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
["GETTING TO KNOW YOU" BY BILL PERKINS & NANCY WILSON]
[“认识你”，作者：比尔·帕金斯和南希·威尔逊]
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。