877: The Making Of - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #877 | December 19, 2025 877: The Making Of Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 877 集 | 2025 年 12 月 19 日 877：注释的制作：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass It's This American Life.
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯 这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And we've been talking here at the radio show recently about a certain genre of movie, which is the "making of" movie.
我们最近在广播节目中谈论了某种类型的电影，即电影的“制作”。
A movie about the making of another film, usually a much more famous one.
一部关于另一部电影制作的电影，通常是一部更出名的电影。
A classic is Hearts of Darkness, which is a "making of" documentary about the film Apocalypse Now, which has footage that the director Francis Ford Coppola's wife Eleanor shot at the time the movie was being filmed.
其中一个经典是《黑暗之心》，这是一部关于电影《现代启示录》的“制作”纪录片，其中有导演弗朗西斯·福特·科波拉的妻子埃莉诺在电影拍摄时拍摄的镜头。
Plus, incredibly, these recordings that she made of her husband without him knowing it, where he's talking about his self-doubt, his despair.
另外，令人难以置信的是，她在丈夫不知情的情况下录制了这些录音，他在其中谈论他的自我怀疑和绝望。
(SUBJECT) FRANCIS FORD There are candid moments with the actors, Dennis Hopper, Laurence Fishburne, who's 14 years old when they were making that film.
（主题）弗朗西斯·福特 有一些与演员丹尼斯·霍珀、劳伦斯·菲什伯恩的坦诚时刻，他们拍摄这部电影时 14 岁。
[ACTOR'S INDISTINCT CHATTER] Martin Sheen, who plays the main character, has a heart attack when they're there, at 36.
[演员含糊不清的闲聊] 扮演主角的马丁·辛 (Martin Sheen) 在他们在那里时心脏病发作，36 岁。
Marlon Brando, the film's most expensive star.
马龙·白兰度，电影中身价最高的明星。
At some point, Coppola realizes that Brando has not read the book that the movie is based on, Heart of Darkness.
在某个时刻，科波拉意识到白兰度并没有读过这部电影的原著《黑暗之心》。
So he does not get who his character is.
所以他不知道他的角色是谁。
And he's being paid $1 million a week.
他每周的薪水是 100 万美元。
And all throughout, there are hints and glimpses of what's really happening in reality in the place that they're filming this movie.
自始至终，都有一些暗示和一瞥他们拍摄这部电影的地方现实中到底发生了什么。
They're in the Philippines, where a US-supported autocrat is fighting a war against a communist insurgency.
他们在菲律宾，美国支持的独裁者正在菲律宾与共产主义叛乱分子进行战争。
The movie's helicopters are US-made choppers flown by pilots in the Philippine military who keep getting pulled away to go back to the real war.
电影中的直升机是美国制造的直升机，由菲律宾军队的飞行员驾驶，他们不断被拉回真正的战争。
(SUBJECT) FRANCIS FORD The film Apocalypse Now is about Vietnam, but it's a big, mythic version of Vietnam, full of larger-than-life characters.
（主题）弗朗西斯·福特 电影《现代启示录》是关于越南的，但它是越南的一个宏大的神话版本，充满了传奇人物。
The "making of" film reveals the normal-sized people building this grand cathedral, brick by brick.
影片的“制作过程”揭示了正常身材的人们如何一砖一瓦地建造这座宏伟的大教堂。
You see the ridiculous lengths everybody had to go through to create their pretend war and their fake, impossible Vietnam.
你会看到每个人都必须经历可笑的漫长岁月才能创造他们假装的战争和假的、不可能的越南。
Which brings me to today's radio show.
这让我想起今天的广播节目。
Today's show is a "making of" of a different kind.
今天的节目是另一种“制作”。
It's people creating a picture of a place and a war that's happening there.
人们创造了一幅关于某个地方和那里正在发生的战争的画面。
And that place is Portland, Oregon.
那个地方就是俄勒冈州波特兰。
We're going to talk about Portland as a concept, what the city has come to mean in this political moment.
我们将讨论波特兰这个概念，以及这座城市在这个政治时刻的意义。
Back in September, you may remember, President Trump declared on Truth Social that he was going to send troops into what he called "war-ravaged Portland" to protect ICE facilities there that were, quote, "under siege from attack by Antifa." Portland came to his attention, he said, by chance.
你可能还记得，9月份，特朗普总统在《Truth Social》上宣布，他将派遣军队前往他所谓的“饱受战争蹂躏的波特兰”，以保护那里的 ICE 设施，这些设施被引述为“受到 Antifa 围攻”。他说，波特兰引起他的注意是偶然的。
That was not on my list, Portland, but when I watched television last night, this has been going on.
那不在我的名单上，波特兰，但当我昨晚看电视时，这种情况一直在发生。
Protesters had actually been outside the ICE facility since June, but Fox News, the night before, had run a story about Portland.
事实上，自 6 月以来，抗议者就一直在 ICE 设施外，但福克斯新闻在前一天晚上刊登了一篇有关波特兰的报道。
And one thing about Fox's coverage, including that story, is that Fox's coverage includes lots of footage of protesters that is not filmed by professional TV news crews, but by the real auteurs behind the right wing's idea of what Portland is.
关于福克斯的报道，包括那个故事，福克斯的报道包括大量抗议者的镜头，这些镜头不是由专业电视新闻工作人员拍摄的，而是由右翼波特兰观念背后的真正导演拍摄的。
These are right-wing citizen journalists who've been there at the protests, covering them more than anybody, especially live streamers who were there.
这些是参加抗议活动的右翼公民记者，比任何人都更多地报道抗议活动，尤其是在场的直播者。
These are people who believe in Trump, believe in ICE, who streamed from the Portland protests, saying that their lefty local government was soft on the protesters, letting Antifa run amok.
这些人相信特朗普，相信 ICE，他们在波特兰抗议活动中表示，他们的左翼地方政府对抗议者态度软弱，让 Antifa 肆意妄为。
Live streaming on YouTube and X.
在 YouTube 和 X 上进行直播。
All these people right here are the Antifa of Portland, all in black.
这里的所有这些人都是波特兰的 Antifa，都穿着黑色衣服。
You come back, I'm going to fucking smoke you, dude.
你回来吧，我他妈的要抽死你了，伙计。
Some of the citizen journalists became regular guests on Fox, talking about this.
一些公民记者成为福克斯的常客，谈论此事。
(SUBJECT) FOX NEWS Right-Wing Streamer It's a complete lie.
（主题）福克斯新闻右翼主播这完全是谎言。
There's lots of violence going on.
有很多暴力事件正在发生。
I mean, these people are very dangerous, and they're unhinged.
我的意思是，这些人非常危险，而且他们精神错乱。
Just the other night--
就在前几天晚上——
And a week and a half after the president declared Portland to be war-ravaged and under siege, he invited these streamers to the White House for a roundtable on Antifa.
在总统宣布波特兰遭受战争蹂躏和围困一周半后，他邀请这些主播到白宫参加有关 Antifa 的圆桌会议。
It was remarkable.
这是非常了不起的。
At least three of these courageous journalists have personally been victims of Antifa attacks
这些勇敢的记者中至少有三人是 Antifa 袭击的受害者
Trump sat at the center of a U-shaped table with about a dozen of these reporters and streamers for an hour and a half.
特朗普与大约十几名记者和彩带坐在一张 U 形桌子的中央，长达一个半小时。
And flanking Trump at the table on his immediate left and right was the full political and law enforcement firepower of the federal government.
在特朗普的左右两侧，是联邦政府的全部政治和执法火力。
Kristi Noem, head of the Department of Homeland Security, head of the FBI, Kash Patel, Attorney General Pam Bondi, Secretary of State Marco Rubio.
国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺姆、联邦调查局局长卡什·帕特尔、司法部长帕姆·邦迪、国务卿马可·卢比奥。
After the president's opening remarks, Kristi Noem, head of DHS, fresh off the plane from Portland herself, talked directly to the streamers.
总统致开幕词后，国土安全部负责人克里斯蒂·诺姆（Kristi Noem）从波特兰刚下飞机，就直接与主播进行了交谈。
I want to thank the new journalists here today for telling their stories and for being able and willing to go to the streets and to cover what's happening here in America.
我要感谢今天在这里的新记者讲述他们的故事，感谢他们能够并且愿意走上街头报道美国正在发生的事情。
Many times, the legacy media has looked the other way, refused to tell the stories and how this network of Antifa is just as sophisticated as MS-13, as TDA, as ISIS, as Hezbollah, as Hamas, as all of them.
很多时候，传统媒体都睁一只眼闭一只眼，拒绝讲述这些故事，以及这个 Antifa 网络如何像 MS-13、TDA、ISIS、真主党、哈马斯一样复杂。
When the streamers spoke, it was in apocalyptic terms about Antifa, this supposed global network of anti-government anti-fascists.
当主播发言时，他们用的是关于Antifa的世界末日术语，Antifa是一个所谓的反政府反法西斯全球网络。
Streamers talked not just about being personally assaulted by Antifa protesters, but putting their lives on the line every day.
直播者不仅谈论了 Antifa 抗议者的人身攻击，还谈论了他们每天都冒着生命危险。
One streamer said that she genuinely believed that if the president had not declared war on Antifa, people at this table would have been killed in Portland.
一位主播表示，她真诚地相信，如果总统没有向 Antifa 宣战，这张桌子上的人就会在波特兰被杀。
Here's one of the best known citizen journalists covering Portland, Nick Sortor.
这是报道波特兰的最著名的公民记者之一尼克·索特。
He's been on Fox a bunch.
他经常上福克斯电视台。
Frankly, the cities and police departments are cooperating with Antifa, such as Portland.
坦率地说，一些城市和警察部门正在与 Antifa 合作，比如波特兰。
It's sickening.
真令人恶心。
I've seen it firsthand, obviously.
显然，我亲眼所见。
And President Trump, you mentioned that flag.
特朗普总统，您提到了那面旗帜。
Remember, you put out a Truth right after I--
记住，在我之后你就说出了真相——
That's right, I saw that.
没错，我看到了。
Nick Sortor --took this flag from that man that was burning it in the street.
尼克·索特（Nick Sortor）——从那个在街上焚烧旗帜的人手中夺走了这面旗帜。
So why don't you give it to Pam?
那你为什么不把它给帕姆呢？
Give it to the attorney general and--
把它交给司法部长然后——
Mm.
嗯。
Donald Trump --let's start prosecutions.
唐纳德·特朗普——让我们开始起诉吧。
Attorney General Pam Bondi pipes in at that point to say she's already started an investigation.
司法部长帕姆·邦迪此时插话说她已经开始调查。
The purpose of all this, the point the administration was making with this event, was that in Portland, these streamers and citizen journalists were proving that the threat to America from Antifa is real and that a massive, nationwide hunt was called for.
所有这一切的目的，即政府通过这次活动表达的观点，是在波特兰，这些主播和公民记者证明，Antifa 对美国的威胁是真实的，因此需要进行大规模的全国性追捕。
And this didn't just mean sending troops into American cities like Portland.
这不仅仅意味着向波特兰等美国城市派遣军队。
It also meant treating Antifa as a domestic terror organization.
这也意味着将 Antifa 视为国内恐怖组织。
The president had just named it that, and he ordered the National Joint Terrorism Task Force to create a national strategy to investigate and prosecute them with the FBI, the Justice Department, and other agencies, and to go after left-wing groups that it says are funding political violence.
总统刚刚这样命名，他命令国家联合恐怖主义特别工作组制定一项国家战略，与联邦调查局、司法部和其他机构一起调查和起诉这些人，并追捕据称资助政治暴力的左翼团体。
The speaker at this roundtable named some of them, like George Soros's Open Society Foundations.
本次圆桌会议上的发言者列举了其中一些基金会的名字，例如乔治·索罗斯的开放社会基金会。
Organizations, who, of course, deny doing any such thing.
当然，组织否认做过任何此类事情。
Since then, prosecutions are underway.
此后，起诉工作正在进行中。
Just this week, the FBI claimed to have disrupted a bomb plot in Southern California by anti-capitalist anarchists leftists with a group called the Turtle Island Liberation Front.
就在本周，联邦调查局声称挫败了反资本主义无政府主义者左派与“龟岛解放阵线”组织在南加州策划的炸弹阴谋。
To be clear, there is no question that there are violent leftist groups in our country, just like there are violent groups on the right.
需要明确的是，毫无疑问，我国存在暴力左翼团体，就像存在右翼暴力团体一样。
But there were already laws in place and law enforcement going after them.
但已经有法律和执法部门在追捕他们。
That's been one of the FBI's jobs forever.
这一直是联邦调查局的工作之一。
This is a new kind of crackdown, at a new scale, targeted only at political violence on the left.
这是一种新形式、新规模的镇压，仅针对左翼政治暴力。
America is a big country.
美国是一个大国。
We all, from the president on down, rely on images and words from other people to understand what's going on elsewhere.
我们所有人，从总统以下，都依靠其他人的图像和文字来了解其他地方正在发生的事情。
And a vision of Portland, a movie about Portland as a place that's war ravaged, a hub for Antifa, ripe for military intervention, that story, promulgated by these streamers and citizen journalists, amplified on right wing TV and social media, that story is justification for all these law enforcement policies all over the country today, along with another story, of course.
还有波特兰的愿景，一部关于波特兰的电影，讲述波特兰是一个饱受战争蹂躏的地方，是安提法的中心，军事干预的时机已经成熟，这个故事由这些流媒体和公民记者传播，在右翼电视和社交媒体上放大，这个故事是当今全国所有这些执法政策的理由，当然还有另一个故事。
The assassination of Charlie Kirk.
查理柯克遇刺事件。
We wanted to see Portland for ourselves.
我们想亲眼看看波特兰。
We wanted to see the making of this story about what Portland is.
我们想看看这个关于波特兰的故事的制作过程。
The reality, the behind the scenes, turns out not just to be very different, but a lot more interesting than the thing that they're filming and the story that they're telling.
事实证明，幕后的现实不仅非常不同，而且比他们正在拍摄的东西和他们正在讲述的故事有趣得多。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: Living the American Stream Ira Glass It's This American Life.
第一幕：过美国流 Ira Glass 这就是美国生活。
Act One, Living the American Stream.
第一幕，生活在美国潮流中。
OK, so some basic facts before we head off to Portland.
好的，在我们前往波特兰之前，先介绍一些基本事实。
The way the president has described Portland, it might sound like an entire city under siege.
按照总统描述波特兰的方式，它听起来可能像是整个城市被围困。
But I think the first thing we need to clarify in this making of is that the entire conflict between protesters and police, the entire war, is happening on exactly one city block outside an ICE facility.
但我认为在制作过程中我们需要澄清的第一件事是，抗议者和警察之间的整个冲突，整个战争，恰好发生在 ICE 设施外的一个街区。
Pretty much every day since June, protesters have been there opposing President Trump's immigration policies, like other protests around the country.
自六月以来，几乎每天都有抗议者反对特朗普总统的移民政策，就像全国各地的其他抗议活动一样。
The level of violence directed towards ICE is mostly blocking and slowing down their vehicles that are coming in and out, and small scuffles where federal police fire tear gas and pepper balls.
针对 ICE 的暴力程度主要是阻止和减慢进出车辆的速度，以及联邦警察发射催泪瓦斯和胡椒球的小规模混战。
There was one day in June when things flared up and were declared a riot.
六月的一天，事态突然爆发，并被宣布为骚乱。
Protesters rammed a stop sign through a glass door, hit an ICE agent in the head with a rock.
抗议者将停车标志撞破玻璃门，用石头击中 ICE 特工的头部。
But that day was kind of a one off.
但那一天有点像一次性的。
What it's been since then on any given day is anywhere from a half dozen to 200 people with music, chanting, bullhorns.
从那时起，每天都会有 6 到 200 人伴随着音乐、口号和扩音器。
During the daytime, it can have a kind of carnival performance art vibe, a street salsa class, people in inflatable frog costumes.
白天，这里有一种嘉年华表演艺术的氛围，街头萨尔萨舞课，人们穿着充气青蛙服装。
There's a guy dressed like Bob Ross with an easel and a pallet, doing an oil painting of the ICE officers.
有一个人打扮得像鲍勃·罗斯，拿着画架和托盘，正在画 ICE 官员的油画。
But then at night, it can get more confrontational with ICE.
但到了晚上，它可能会与 ICE 发生更激烈的对抗。
Sometimes protesters have burned American flags, graffitied outside the building, shot fireworks, and it gets confrontational between the protesters and the streamers who mix it up with them.
有时，抗议者焚烧美国国旗，在大楼外涂鸦，燃放烟花，抗议者和将其混为一谈的彩带之间会发生对抗。
Usually, there are anywhere between just a few streamers to maybe 30 or so.
通常，主播数量从几个到 30 个左右不等。
It gets really noisy and disruptive, and people living near the ICE facility complain to police about the noise.
它变得非常嘈杂和具有破坏性，居住在 ICE 设施附近的人们向警方抱怨噪音。
And when the streamers and citizen journalists say that the Portland police let all this happen, there's truth to that.
当主播和公民记者说波特兰警方让这一切发生时，这是事实。
They haven't stopped protesters from blocking sidewalks or surrounding and delaying ICE vehicles.
他们没有阻止抗议者堵塞人行道或包围并延误 ICE 车辆。
They've allowed them to make noise.
他们允许他们发出噪音。
And a judge ruled that it was OK.
法官裁定没有问题。
That was the state of things when one of our producers, Zoe Chace, flew to Portland in October with another producer, Suzanne Gaber.
当我们的一位制片人 Zoe Chace 十月份与另一位制片人 Suzanne Gaber 一起飞往波特兰时，情况就是如此。
Here's their story.
这是他们的故事。
When we got there, it had been about two weeks after the White House roundtable about Portland and Antifa.
当我们到达那里时，距离有关波特兰和 Antifa 的白宫圆桌会议已经过去了大约两周。
We got there after 10:00 on a Saturday night, late October.
我们十月底的一个星期六晚上 10:00 后到达那里。
It was cold and rainy, but there are a lot of people out here wandering up and down the sidewalk.
虽然天气寒冷，还下着雨，但还是有很多人在人行道上走来走去。
And it's not grimy protesters dragging furry tails in the mud, dancing to "I Will Survive," or whatever I was picturing the campy Antifa Portland protest scene to be at this point.
这并不是肮脏的抗议者在泥巴里拖着毛茸茸的尾巴，随着“我会生存”跳舞，或者我此时想象的波特兰 Antifa 抗议场景。
What we walk into is more like a Trump rally.
我们走进的更像是一场特朗普集会。
[CROWD CHANTING, USA] I want you to picture, this is one long block with an ICE facility on one side and a tall apartment building on the other.
[人群高呼，美国] 我想让你想象一下，这是一个长街区，一侧有 ICE 设施，另一侧有一栋高大的公寓楼。
Two long sidewalks, a big street in the middle that leads to The Old Spaghetti Factory.
两条长长的人行道，中间一条大街通向老意大利面工厂。
People are swarming both sides of the street, even late at night like this.
即使是深夜，街道两旁也挤满了人。
There are a bunch of city cops in yellow slickers standing around, and all these people wandering around with their phones on long selfie sticks, talking into the phones and talking to each other.
一群穿着黄色雨衣的城市警察站在周围，所有这些人都拿着长自拍杆上的手机四处闲逛，对着手机说话，互相交谈。
Some of these people Suz and I recognize from the White House roundtable or from appearances on Fox.
其中一些人是我和苏兹在白宫圆桌会议上或在福克斯电视台露面时认识的。
But mainly, I have no idea what I'm looking at.
但主要是，我不知道我在看什么。
So we meet up with this one voluble streamer-- she calls herself an analyst-- Karlyn Borysenko.
因此，我们遇到了一位口若悬河的主播——她自称分析师——卡琳·鲍里森科 (Karlyn Borysenko)。
128,000 subscribers on YouTube.
YouTube 上有 128,000 名订阅者。
And she's just pointing people out to us.
她只是向我们指出一些人。
The guy in the mask is a MAGA guy.
戴面具的人是一个 MAGA 人。
The guy with the yellow hat right there is Antifa.
那个戴黄帽子的人就是Antifa。
The guy with the flag is Antifa.
拿着旗帜的那个人是Antifa。
Normally, Karlyn's streaming from home.
通常情况下，Karlyn 都会在家进行直播。
She's kind of a commentator about the streamers.
她有点像流媒体的评论员。
She'll have four different live videos up from four different live streamers.
她将拥有来自四个不同直播主播的四个不同的直播视频。
And it's like, camera one, no, camera two, while walking you through what or who to watch in the videos.
就像是，摄像机一，不，摄像机二，同时引导您在视频中观看什么或谁。
Karlyn's a recovered lefty, now very much on the right.
卡林是一名康复的左撇子，现在主要是右撇子。
She considers herself an Antifa expert.
她认为自己是 Antifa 专家。
She knows all these right-wing streamers and influencers, so she's a good person to follow around.
她认识所有这些右翼主播和有影响力的人，所以她是一个值得关注的好人。
Well JD Delay is there.
那么 JD 延迟就在那里。
He's got 1.6 million subscribers on YouTube.
他在 YouTube 上拥有 160 万订阅者。
He's in the camo hat.
他戴着迷彩帽。
And he's--
而他是——
I also spot Nick Sortor, 1.3 million followers on X.
我还发现了 Nick Sortor，他在 X 上有 130 万粉丝。
Cam Higby, 216,000 YouTube subscribers.
Cam Higby，216,000 名 YouTube 订阅者。
They were both at the White House.
他们都在白宫。
So a lot of people out here, it's kind of like they're just showing what's happening.
所以很多人都在这里，他们只是在展示正在发生的事情。
And I think a lot of people out here are trying to get the best footage they can, regardless of what side they're on.
我认为这里的很多人都在努力获得最好的镜头，无论他们站在哪一边。
And what do they-- why?
他们做什么——为什么？
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Like, why?
比如，为什么？
It's not as though it's not covered.
并不是说没有被覆盖。
We're in a reality show right now.
我们现在正在参加真人秀。
And you can see the reality show from that angle or that angle, or down there.
你可以从那个角度或者那个角度或者下面看真人秀。
I mean, I watch the live streams for hours and hours at a time on my YouTube channel when I'm at home.
我的意思是，当我在家时，我会在 YouTube 频道上一次观看几个小时的直播。
And you have all these different angles.
你有所有这些不同的角度。
You can skip around, see what's-- it's like-- you know what it's like?
你可以跳过去，看看是什么——它是什么样的——你知道它是什么样的吗？
It's like the Big Brother house, where you can go in the kitchen or the bedroom just to spy on people.
这就像老大哥的房子，你可以去厨房或卧室监视别人。
Same thing, except we're actually in it.
同样的事情，只不过我们实际上在其中。
And it's addictive after a while.
而且用一段时间后就会上瘾。
It's like you start-- there's characters in this story.
就像你开始的那样——这个故事里有人物。
There are people that are here all the time.
一直有人在这里。
So you get kind of endeared to some of them.
所以你会受到其中一些人的喜爱。
There's a reason so many right-wing streamers are in the same place at the same time the weekend that we're here.
我们在这里的周末同一时间有这么多右翼流媒体出现在同一个地方，这是有原因的。
Since the White House roundtable, more and more of these streamers have been showing up here.
自白宫圆桌会议以来，越来越多的此类彩带出现在这里。
Then recently, the anti-ICE protesters did this thing, which was put up a poster with a bunch of right-wing influencers' faces and handles and real names on it, saying, "don't take the bait." Meaning, don't give these guys content that they'll use as propaganda.
然后最近，反ICE抗议者做了这样的事情，他们贴了一张海报，上面有一群右翼影响者的面孔、手柄和真实姓名，上面写着“不要上当”。意思是，不要向这些人提供他们将用作宣传的内容。
The streamers saw that and were like, OK, well, we're now all going to come at once.
彩带看到了这一点，然后说，好吧，好吧，我们现在马上就来。
And we're going to make a lot of videos of you weirdos.
我们将为你们这些怪人制作很多视频。
And they're calling it Patriot Weekend.
他们称之为爱国者周末。
[INDISTINCT CHATTER] Some people are just standing around smoking and talking in the rain.
[模糊的喋喋不休]有些人只是站在周围抽烟，在雨中说话。
And then these big circles form, out of what seems like nowhere, with people pushing and yelling like a playground fight--
然后这些大圆圈不知从哪里冒出来，人们互相推搡、大喊大叫，就像操场上的打架一样——
We ain't listening to that pedophile music, bro.
我们不是在听那些恋童癖的音乐，兄弟。
--with all these other people jostling to film the fight in the middle of the circle, which is a yelling fight, to be clear, usually not a fist fight.
——所有这些人都争先恐后地拍摄圆圈中间的打斗，需要明确的是，这是一场大喊大叫的打斗，通常不是拳头打斗。
And the people inside the circle are filming themselves being filmed and streaming that live to their followers.
圈内的人正在拍摄自己被拍摄的视频并直播给他们的追随者。
It's a circle of people and phones in a fight.
这是一群人和手机在打斗的圈子。
I walk up to a group like this, try to push my way inside to see what's in the center.
我走到这样的一群人面前，试图挤进去看看中间有什么。
It looks like a dude in a bulletproof vest streaming a video of himself yelling at a guy with a Captain America shield.
看起来就像一个穿着防弹背心的家伙在播放自己对着一个戴着美国队长盾牌的家伙大喊大叫的视频。
Stolen valor.
被盗的勇气。
We just proved it.
我们刚刚证明了这一点。
It's disgusting.
那真令人恶心。
You're a liar.
你是个骗子。
You're disgusting.
你真令人恶心。
Apparently, thousands of people are watching this online right now.
显然，现在有成千上万的人正在网上观看此内容。
Karlyn and I elbow our way into a different crowd, but at the center nothing's happening.
卡林和我挤进了另一个人群，但中间什么也没发生。
It seems like some fight has just ended and the streamers who were watching the fight start talking to each other about whatever that fight was about.
似乎一场战斗刚刚结束，观看比赛的主播开始互相谈论这场战斗的内容。
It's funny, now they're just doing a talk show of what just happened.
有趣的是，现在他们只是在做一个脱口秀节目来讲述刚刚发生的事情。
And that happens a lot.
这种情况经常发生。
It's one of those things, again, it's a spectacle, right?
这是其中之一，这又是一个奇观，对吧？
There's something going on over here, but then you get to run over there.
这里发生了一些事情，但是你必须跑到那里去。
And maybe you get to provoke something over here.
也许你会在这里挑衅什么。
And you just never know what's going to happen, you know?
你永远不知道会发生什么，知道吗？
(SUBJECT) HIPPIE MAGA Zoe Chace This is another rando chiming in.
（主题）嬉皮士 MAGA Zoe Chace 这是另一个随机插话。
He's dressed like The Dude from The Big Lebowski, in a full robe with beads.
他的穿着就像《大勒博斯基》中的那个家伙，穿着一件镶有珠子的长袍。
What's hippie MAGA?
什么是嬉皮士 MAGA？
(SUBJECT) HIPPIE MAGA
（主题）嬉皮士玛伽
Lots of handles flying around that I don't know.
很多我不知道的手柄飞来飞去。
Karlyn looks around.
卡琳环顾四周。
Is there something people are waiting for now?
人们现在正在等待什么吗？
What is everyone doing here, you know what I mean?
每个人都在这里做什么，你知道我的意思吗？
It's 10:30, it's really cold and rainy.
现在是10点30分，天气真冷，还下着雨。
Yeah, well, you can see something's about to happen over there.
是的，好吧，你可以看到那边即将发生一些事情。
It looks like a whole bunch of people are walking over there, so I don't know what's about to happen, but--
看起来有一大群人正朝那边走来，所以我不知道会发生什么，但是——
Let's go see.
我们去看看吧。
Karlyn Borysenko Let's go see.
卡琳·鲍里森科 我们去看看吧。
Uh-oh.
呃哦。
Everyone is just standing around with their phones.
每个人都只是拿着手机站在那里。
Yeah, because it's like, if there's no-- if there's no fight, at some point, then there's nothing really to film, right?
是的，因为这就像，如果在某个时刻没有打斗，那么就没什么可拍的了，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
Zoe Chace So at some point, something has to happen or there's nothing to see.
Zoe Chace 所以在某些时候，一定会发生一些事情，否则就什么也看不到。
And you know what, I've kind of seen is it's--
你知道吗，我看到的是——
Pam is a crazy person and she likes to come and yell at people.
帕姆是个疯狂的人，她喜欢冲别人大喊大叫。
You're not a psychologist.
你不是心理学家。
Zoe Chace Now someone comes up and starts scolding Karlyn.
佐伊·切斯 现在有人走过来开始责骂卡林。
An older lady, infamous on X, The MAGA Granny.
一位年长的女士，在 X 上臭名昭著，MAGA 奶奶。
She went to prison for storming the Capitol on January 6th, but she's flipped.
1 月 6 日，她因袭击国会大厦而入狱，但她情绪失控。
And now she's at every anti-Trump event you can think of.
现在她参加了你能想到的所有反特朗普活动。
The right wingers call her Pam-tifa.
右翼分子称她为“帕姆蒂法”。
I don't even know what you're talking about.
我什至不知道你在说什么。
What are you upset about, Pam?
帕姆，你在生气什么？
Zoe Chace The big streamers can have tens of thousands of people watching them at one time, depending on what's going on.
Zoe Chace 大主播可以同时吸引数万人观看，具体取决于正在发生的情况。
And they make real money from that, from paid subscribers.
他们从付费订阅者那里赚到了真正的钱。
Fans tip them in real time.
粉丝实时给他们打赏。
One streamer out here tonight, he got into this after streaming Fortnite.
今晚这里有一位主播，他在直播《堡垒之夜》后就进入了这个领域。
This pays more, he told us, being out here.
他告诉我们，来这里可以得到更多的报酬。
But most streamers are more like Mike Ross, an out-of-town streamer.
但大多数主播更像迈克·罗斯（Mike Ross），一位外地主播。
I followed him around for hours.
我跟着他走了好几个小时。
He says he made money on crypto.
他说他通过加密货币赚钱了。
So this is a hobby for him, not a job.
所以这对他来说是一种爱好，而不是工作。
Not yet, anyway.
无论如何，还没有。
He's a very tall white guy in a big brown sweatshirt with a phone on a tripod, so he can film from really high up.
他是一个很高的白人，穿着一件棕色大运动衫，手机架在三脚架上，所以他可以从很高的地方拍摄。
He's a mental health advocate and a disabled veteran.
他是一名心理健康倡导者和一名残疾退伍军人。
He goes by MentallyIdaho on X.
他在 X 上的昵称是 MentallyIdaho。
He's relatively new here, relatively few followers, 6,000.
他在这里相对较新，追随者也相对较少，只有 6,000 名。
His vibe is high school football coach.
他的气质是高中橄榄球教练。
I flew back this weekend for Patriot Weekend.
我这个周末飞回来参加爱国者周末。
And just filming and live streaming and trying to get angles that other people don't get.
只是拍摄和直播并尝试获得其他人无法获得的角度。
Because I can do this and record what other people can't do.
因为我可以做到这一点，并记录其他人做不到的事情。
Yeah, you have a big fish pole.
是的，你有一根大鱼竿。
You can get up really high.
你可以站得很高。
Yeah, so I do stuff like that.
是的，所以我就做类似的事情。
What do you think of all the chaos?
您对所有的混乱有何看法？
[CROWD CHATTER] Zoe Chace I just got here, honestly.
[人群喋喋不休] Zoe Chace 老实说，我刚到这里。
Mike said this thing about the way people talk to each other here, how mean and juvenile and graphic and vulgar it is.
迈克谈到了这里人们互相交谈的方式，这是多么刻薄、幼稚、生动和粗俗。
It's really like walking around inside social media, like we're in the comments section in real life.
这真的就像在社交媒体中走来走去，就像我们在现实生活中的评论部分一样。
Remember, every person streaming here is not alone.
请记住，这里的每个人都并不孤单。
They have this invisible mob surrounding them, sometimes animating them like a video game avatar.
他们周围有一群看不见的暴徒，有时让他们像电子游戏的化身一样活跃。
Mike's chat points him in various directions, saying go here, go there, collaborating and making things happen that turn into content.
迈克的聊天为他指明了不同的方向，说去这里，去那里，合作并使事情发生并转化为内容。
While I'm there with Mike, one of the streamers gets arrested, and his wife is really upset.
当我和迈克在一起时，其中一位主播被捕了，他的妻子非常沮丧。
Mike tells her they're going to get help from the chat.
迈克告诉她他们将从聊天中获得帮助。
Say it again?
再说一遍？
Woman 1 They said that he might have to pay bail to get out.
女 1 他们说他可能需要缴纳保释金才能出狱。
OK.
好的。
People want to know how to give money.
人们想知道如何捐钱。
So in a minute, we'll walk down to Tommy's chat and you can talk to both chats about that, OK?
稍后，我们将转到 Tommy 的聊天室，您可以与两个聊天室讨论此事，好吗？
You have a Venmo or CashApp?
您有 Venmo 或 CashApp？
My phone's about to die.
我的手机快没电了
Mike Ross Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
迈克·罗斯 坚持住，坚持住，坚持住，坚持住，坚持住，坚持住，坚持住。
Check this out.
看看这个。
USB-C or lightning?
USB-C 还是闪电？
Whoa, you're both.
哇，你们俩都是。
Mike Ross There you go.
迈克·罗斯 就这样吧。
Breathe.
呼吸。
Do me a favor and take some deep breaths.
帮我一个忙，深呼吸一下。
Mike sees himself as a helper.
迈克将自己视为一个帮助者。
He got into activism around mental health issues after a hospital staff, he says, medicated him against his will.
他说，在一名医院工作人员违背他的意愿对他进行药物治疗后，他开始围绕心理健康问题采取行动。
He's been diagnosed with PTSD.
他被诊断患有创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）。
Severe Complex PTSD comes from a life of trauma.
严重的复杂创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）来自于生活中的创伤。
So ever since I was like-- I have borderline personality.
所以自从我就像——我就有边缘人格。
Ever since I was a kid, I've been traumatized.
自从我还是个孩子的时候起，我就受到了创伤。
I've been abused.
我被虐待了。
I've been picked on.
我被挑中了
I've been beaten, so, my whole life.
我这辈子都被打败了。
And I go become a Marine and learn to stand up for myself, stand up for other people.
我成为一名海军陆战队员，学会为自己挺身而出，为他人挺身而出。
You stand up for the weak, for the vulnerable.
你为弱者、弱势群体挺身而出。
So that kind of propelled me into-- use my abilities and my skills to help people.
所以这促使我——利用我的能力和技能来帮助人们。
A lot of people I talked to out here had oddly similar stories.
我在这里交谈过的很多人都有着奇怪的相似故事。
Tough childhood, and then some life-defining, very American trauma that seemed to explain what they were doing down here.
艰难的童年，以及一些决定人生的、非常美国式的创伤，似乎解释了他们在这里所做的事情。
The war in Afghanistan, the financial crisis, the COVID lockdowns, January 6th.
阿富汗战争、金融危机、新冠疫情封锁，1 月 6 日。
And each of these people seemed to find an antidote of sorts to those events via the streaming thing, recording this real-life, live-action, political video game.
这些人似乎都通过流媒体找到了解决这些事件的解药，录制了这个现实生活中的真人政治视频游戏。
Being one of the good guys.
成为好人之一。
Finding a community of people not just online, but in real life, but in an online way.
不仅在网上，而且在现实生活中，而且以在线方式寻找人们的社区。
A little audience who cares about what you care about and thinks what you're doing is important.
一小群关心你关心的事情并认为你所做的事情很重要的观众。
For example, like with Mike, he's not getting along with his wife right now.
例如，就像迈克一样，他现在与妻子相处得不好。
He talks about that openly with his chat.
他在聊天中公开谈论这一点。
She doesn't want him here streaming.
她不希望他在这里直播。
She thinks he could get himself into some kind of vigilante violence situation.
她认为他可能会让自己陷入某种私刑暴力的境地。
Mike is like, that's not me.
迈克说，那不是我。
And the chat is supportive.
并且聊天是支持性的。
They ask questions.
他们提出问题。
They talk about their lives.
他们谈论自己的生活。
Mike's reading the comments out loud.
迈克正在大声朗读评论。
"I was spiraling in the drain.
“我在下水道里盘旋。
It took a big family push, but I got help.
这需要家庭的大力推动，但我得到了帮助。
I'm still here.
我还在这里。
Still have some very rough times, but I'm still here." That's awesome, man.
虽然仍然有一些非常困难的时期，但我还在这里。”太棒了，伙计。
(INTERVIEWER) ZOE Zoe Chace Some streamers are very committed to documenting, like Mike.
（采访者）ZOE Zoe Chace 有些主播非常热衷于记录，比如 Mike。
Some people come here to argue with the other side.
有些人来这里是为了与对方争论。
Some are in it for the thrill of it, like a streamer named Mo told me he used to be addicted to meth, but now he's addicted to streaming.
有些人是为了寻求刺激，比如一位名叫莫的主播告诉我，他曾经对冰毒上瘾，但现在他对直播上瘾了。
Some people are trolls.
有些人是巨魔。
They're here to rile the protesters up into doing something that makes them look dumb or violent.
他们来这里是为了激怒抗议者，让他们做出一些让他们看起来愚蠢或暴力的事情。
Something fascinating that happens, though, when you're watching those guys, is lots of times, they're trying to prove that the protesters are the cause of the violence, but in fact, when you look at the footage, often what the footage reveals is exactly the opposite.
然而，当你观看这些人时，会发生一些令人着迷的事情，很多时候，他们试图证明抗议者是暴力的原因，但事实上，当你观看录像时，录像所揭示的往往是完全相反的。
It shows clearly that some of the violence would not be happening at all if the streamers weren't there.
它清楚地表明，如果没有彩带，一些暴力事件根本不会发生。
Here's an example from the night that we were there.
这是我们在那里当晚的一个例子。
Before we got there, these guys Rhein and Cam were filming themselves, tried to come into this canopy tent the protesters set up on the sidewalk as a sort of home base.
在我们到达那里之前，莱茵和卡姆这些家伙正在拍摄自己，试图进入抗议者在人行道上搭建的这个天篷帐篷，作为一种大本营。
A protester in a black helmet with a red anarchist sticker on it steps in front of them.
一名戴着黑色头盔、贴有红色无政府主义贴纸的抗议者走到他们面前。
Hey, guys.
嘿，伙计们。
Protester 1 No fascists allowed in the tent.
抗议者 1 法西斯分子不得进入帐篷。
No fascists allowed.
法西斯分子是不允许的。
A protester in a fuzzy skeleton suit glares at them.
一名穿着毛茸茸的骷髅服的抗议者怒视着他们。
"I'm getting medical treatment," she says to the phones looming over her.
“我正在接受治疗，”她对着头顶上的电话说道。
What are you getting treated for, herpes?
疱疹，你在接受什么治疗？
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
哇，哇，哇。
Zoe Chace And then in a sort of, "I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down" move, Rhein and some streamers just bust through the tent as a group, to make the point that this is a public sidewalk, which it is.
佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）然后，莱因和一些彩带以一种“我会气喘吁吁，我会吹倒你的房子”的动作，作为一个整体冲破了帐篷，以表明这是一条公共人行道，事实确实如此。
They are correct.
他们是正确的。
But a guy in shark pajamas is almost knocked to the ground.
但一个穿着鲨鱼睡衣的家伙差点被撞倒在地。
As everyone spills out of the tent all together, you hear the protesters cry, "assault!" And Ryan says he got maced and pours water on his face.
当所有人一起冲出帐篷时，你会听到抗议者喊道：“攻击！”瑞安说他被狼牙棒打了，还把水泼到了脸上。
Later, Rhein took a leaf blower from the protesters' supplies and moved it down the street.
随后，莱因从抗议者的物资中取出了一个吹叶机，并将其搬到了街上。
I asked him about what he was doing.
我问他在做什么。
What's the idea behind what he's even doing?
他所做的事情背后的想法是什么？
You took a leaf blower?
你拿了吹叶机吗？
Rhein Yeah, I grabbed a leaf blower.
莱茵河 是的，我抓起吹叶机。
OK.
好的。
Rhein And I moved it 50 feet down here.
莱茵河 我把它移到这里 50 英尺以下。
OK, so you just moved it, you didn't take it.
好吧，所以你只是移动了它，你没有拿走它。
That's what I'm saying.
这就是我所说的。
Rhein's a former Trump campaign guy and a former college football player.
莱因是前特朗普竞选团队成员和前大学橄榄球运动员。
He's big and broad.
他又大又宽。
Rhein has a track record here.
莱茵在这方面有着良好的记录。
The Portland police have noted that he reported he'd been attacked by protesters.
波特兰警方注意到，他报告称自己遭到了抗议者的袭击。
He was surrounded by more than 15 of them and then pepper sprayed while on the ground one time.
他被超过 15 个人包围，然后有一次在地上被喷了胡椒喷雾。
And the police have also seen him, quote, "antagonizing the protesters until assaulted," end quote.
警方还看到他“与抗议者对抗，直到遭到袭击”，引用结束语。
His X bio reads, "right-wing provocateur."
他的 X 简历上写着“右翼煽动者”。
For example, some guy goes, oh, F you fascist!
例如，有人说，哦，F你个法西斯！
I'm like, oh, seriously?
我想，哦，认真的吗？
I'll walk up in their face and say, what do you want?
我会走到他们面前说，你想要什么？
And then they'll push me and I'll push them right back, and they fall to the ground.
然后他们会推我，我会把他们推回去，然后他们就倒在地上。
And that leads to violence.
这会导致暴力。
Rhein That's one night out of an entire summer, though.
莱茵河 不过，那只是整个夏天中的一个夜晚。
So you don't think-- even though you call yourself a provocateur, you don't think you're really provoking them?
所以你不认为，即使你称自己为挑衅者，你也不认为你真的在挑衅他们？
With my physical actions, no. But my presence, yes.
以我的身体动作来说，不。但我的存在，是的。
And is the point of that in order to make them react so that you can prove your point that they are violent?
这样做的目的是为了让他们做出反应，以便你可以证明你的观点，即他们是暴力的吗？
It's to prove my point that they think they own the city.
这是为了证明我的观点，他们认为他们拥有这座城市。
And my point, I do it to take away their narrative that they can do whatever they want.
我的观点是，我这样做是为了消除他们的说法，即他们可以为所欲为。
This is precisely, exactly how many of the streamers and right-wing influencers feel.
这正是许多主播和右翼影响者的感受。
That even if Trump is in office, there's a double standard when it comes to the left and enforcement.
即使特朗普执政，在左派和执法方面也存在双重标准。
The January 6th protesters were cracked down on and these protesters are not.
1 月 6 日的抗议者遭到镇压，而这些抗议者却没有受到镇压。
So yeah, they might get in a protester's face and taunt them or film them.
所以，是的，他们可能会当着抗议者的面嘲笑他们或拍摄他们。
If the protester responds with aggression, well, that's just revealing who they are.
如果抗议者以攻击性的方式回应，那么，这只是暴露了他们的身份。
It's fair game.
这是公平的游戏。
I want to pivot for a moment to say something about the cops.
我想暂时谈谈警察。
The cops are a great focus of the streamers' ire.
警察是主播愤怒的焦点。
They think the cops are in league with the protesters.
他们认为警察与抗议者勾结。
They call them Cop-tifa, say they don't arrest the protesters enough.
他们称他们为“Cop-tifa”，称他们逮捕抗议者的力度不够。
The protesters would disagree.
抗议者不会同意。
The night we were there, though, everyone agrees, was a big turning point.
不过，每个人都同意，我们在那里的那个晚上是一个重大转折点。
It seemed the cops were cracking down.
看来警察正在镇压。
In fact, hours before Suz and I showed up here, 30 of them had descended on the protesters' tent and demanded its removal.
事实上，在我和苏兹到达这里的几个小时前，他们中的 30 人已经来到抗议者的帐篷并要求将其拆除。
The tent had been cleared before, but not like this.
帐篷之前已经清理过，但不是这样的。
This time, there was less warning than usual and there was just so many police.
这次，警告比平时少了，警察也只有这么多。
In general, people said there were a lot more police all of a sudden, patrolling everything and issuing citations.
总的来说，人们说警察突然多了很多，巡逻所有地方并发出罚单。
And what made this happen, the streamers will tell you, a lot of it comes down to this one video, of course.
是什么让这一切发生，主播们会告诉你，当然，很大程度上可以归结为这个视频。
From early October, a video from Rhein, actually, featuring the most known Fox ubiquitous guy down here, Nick Sortor.
实际上，从 10 月初开始，一段来自 Rhein 的视频以这里最著名的福克斯无所不在的家伙尼克·索尔特为主角。
He got into a scuffle with protesters.
他与抗议者发生了扭打。
He was filming them.
他正在拍摄他们。
One of them started yelling at him, and then pushed him with an umbrella.
其中一人开始对他大喊大叫，然后用雨伞推了他。
I will fuck your ass up, punk.
我会操你的屁股，朋克。
Get out of here.
离开这里。
Then a crowd formed and he got pushed into this hole.
然后一群人聚集起来，他被推到了这个洞里。
It's more like a huge dip in the ground covered in grass.
它更像是地面上一个巨大的洼地，上面覆盖着草。
It's called a bioswale.
它被称为生物沼泽。
It's for rain runoff.
是为了雨水径流。
Two of the protesters and Nick were arrested for disorderly conduct.
其中两名抗议者和尼克因扰乱秩序而被捕。
Nick spent the night in jail.
尼克在监狱里度过了一夜。
Donald Trump texted him, "We are behind you 100%." Basically, keep your head up, like he was Tupac.
唐纳德·特朗普给他发短信说：“我们100%支持你。”基本上，抬起头来，就像他是图帕克一样。
Nick ended up released and not charged with anything.
尼克最终被释放，没有受到任何指控。
Immediately afterward, the Department of Justice, the Civil Rights Division, opened an investigation into, quote, "viewpoint discrimination" by the Portland police.
随后，司法部民权部门对波特兰警方的“观点歧视”展开调查。
Nick himself has started the process to sue the police department for $10 million, alleging systemic bias against conservatives, saying the department was "riddled with Antifa." Six days after the arrest, Nick and the other influencers were at the White House doing that roundtable.
尼克本人已开始起诉警察局，要求赔偿 1000 万美元，指控警察局对保守派存在系统性偏见，并称警察局“充斥着 Antifa”。被捕六天后，尼克和其他有影响力的人在白宫举行圆桌会议。
Yes-anding the president's promise to send the National Guard into Portland to police this block, because the police were not.
是的——总统承诺派遣国民警卫队进入波特兰维持这个街区的治安，因为警察并没有这样做。
And that got a ton of coverage on right-wing media.
这得到了右翼媒体的大量报道。
And that's why the streamers think the cops are acting differently tonight.
这就是为什么主播认为警察今晚的行为有所不同。
Some of them, including Mike, the vet from Idaho, think the cops are scared of all this exposure.
其中一些人，包括来自爱达荷州的兽医迈克，认为警察害怕所有这些曝光。
All the streamers coming down here, just the pressure that's been built from it and Fox News talking about them, they have to enforce the law and it has to be equally.
所有来到这里的主播，只是由此产生的压力和福克斯新闻谈论他们，他们必须执行法律，而且必须是平等的。
So it's brought-- it definitely, definitely change things.
所以它带来了——它绝对、绝对改变了事情。
But why take Mike's word for it?
但为什么要相信迈克的话呢？
Guess who showed up for Patriots weekend.
猜猜谁出现在爱国者队周末。
It's Nick Sortor, himself.
这是尼克·索特本人。
He's right here.
他就在这里。
What do you think, Nick?
你觉得怎么样，尼克？
Do you think that stuff like what happened to you changed what the police were doing?
你认为发生在你身上的事情会改变警察的做法吗？
I mean, it sort of brought the-- it brought nationwide attention to the issue.
我的意思是，它引起了全国范围内对这个问题的关注。
Obviously, my intent was to bring nationwide attention to the issue, but not in that manner.
显然，我的目的是引起全国范围内对这个问题的关注，但不是以这种方式。
Not in the manner of being arrested.
不是以被捕的方式。
But I was on Laura Ingraham's show, I guess, three hours before I was arrested.
但我猜，在我被捕前三个小时，我正在参加劳拉·英格拉汉姆的节目。
The fact that I had just done that hit and it was fresh, and then I was arrested on a Thursday night, and then that whole Friday was just nonstop coverage of the arrest.
事实上，我刚刚完成了那次打击，而且很新鲜，然后我在周四晚上被捕，然后整个周五都是对逮捕的不间断报道。
Ever since then, I mean, they've pretty much been talking about it in at least one segment of each show every night.
我的意思是，从那时起，他们每晚至少在每场节目的一个片段中都在谈论这个问题。
So I mean, I've done probably six or seven prime-time Fox hits since then.
所以我的意思是，从那时起我大概已经出演了六到七部福克斯黄金时段的热门影片。
Standing here on this block full of streamers, I just want to point out this is the dream, saturation coverage, with footage these guys filmed, stamped with their handles.
站在这个充满彩带的街区，我只想指出这是梦想，饱和覆盖，这些人拍摄的镜头，用他们的手柄印记。
Anyway, after all the attention Nick got for his arrest, including the Department of Justice investigation into the Portland police, it seemed to the streamers that the cops were policing the protesters more strictly, like clearing the tent and everything.
不管怎样，在尼克因被捕而受到关注，包括司法部对波特兰警方的调查之后，在彩带上，警察似乎对抗议者进行了更严格的监管，比如清理帐篷和所有东西。
So we asked the police, were the streamers right?
于是我们问警察，这些彩带是对的吗？
Were they policing differently after Nick Sortor?
在尼克·索特事件之后，他们的警务工作是否有所不同？
And they responded, they were doing more enforcement, but for a different reason.
他们回应说，他们正在加强执法，但出于不同的原因。
Quote, "If there was any change, it was in the crowd's behavior.
引用：“如果说有什么变化的话，那就是人群的行为。
We began to see an influx of streamers, the people who want to monetize the situation."
我们开始看到大量主播涌入，他们希望通过这种情况获利。”
Still quoting the police here, they went on, "The increase in the number of live streamers and personalities in the area contributed to an environment where tension and confrontation escalated.
他们仍然引用当地警方的话说，“该地区直播主播和名人数量的增加导致紧张和对抗升级。
Many of these individuals were creating content for audiences that reward intensity and conflict, which can sometimes amplify volatile situations." In other words, the live streamers made the protesters act up, and the police cracked down on both of them.
其中许多人正在为观众创作奖励强度和冲突的内容，这有时会加剧不稳定的局势。”换句话说，是直播让抗议者行动起来，警察才对他们进行了镇压。
That is definitely not how the streamers interpreted things.
这绝对不是主播们解释事情的方式。
On this night, certainly, they just thought they were winning.
当然，在这个夜晚，他们只是认为自己赢了。
It's after midnight now.
现在已经是午夜过后了。
The streamers seem to be on a high.
彩带似乎处于高位。
They've seen the cops clear the protesters' tent.
他们看到警察清理了抗议者的帐篷。
The cops seem to be listening to them.
警察似乎在听他们说话。
They're filled with this "we're winning" adrenaline.
他们充满了“我们正在获胜”的肾上腺素。
They want to do something.
他们想做点什么。
So they start this march down the street towards this apartment.
于是他们开始沿着街道向这间公寓行进。
Something like 30-odd people marching, with their phones aloft, yelling someone's name.
大约有 30 多人高举手机，高喊某人的名字，游行。
Chandler, Chandler.
钱德勒，钱德勒。
[CROWD YELLING CHANDLER] They opened the door to this guy's apartment.
[人群大喊钱德勒]他们打开了这家伙公寓的门。
It just opens, which is shocking to see and feels a little scary.
刚打开，看到的很震撼，感觉有点恐怖。
Like, is someone going to get dragged out and beat up in some soccer hooligany way?
比如，有人会被拖出去并以某种足球流氓的方式殴打吗？
Chandler!
钱德勒！
Counter-Protester 3 We want to have a discussion.
反抗议者3 我们想讨论一下。
Is anybody home?
有人在家吗？
Chandler!
钱德勒！
[INDISTINCT YELLING] Zoe Chace I find myself next to Chad Caton, the guy in a bulletproof vest who was yelling about stolen valor before.
[模糊的叫喊] Zoe Chace 我发现自己坐在查德·卡顿 (Chad Caton) 旁边，那个穿着防弹背心的家伙之前曾大喊过被盗的勇气。
We're just a few feet back from the apartment door.
我们距离公寓门仅几英尺。
He's streaming as we're talking, which is always how it is.
我们说话的时候他就在直播，情况总是如此。
What's going on here?
这是怎么回事？
Chad Caton So Chandler has been operating the Antifa out of here.
查德·卡顿（Chad Caton）所以钱德勒（Chad Caton）一直在这里经营Antifa。
They've been running this neighborhood, and these patriots have had enough.
他们一直在管理这个社区，这些爱国者已经受够了。
They're taking back their streets.
他们正在夺回自己的街道。
And this has been Chandler's-- this is where they have attacked patriots and ran in here.
这是钱德勒的——他们就是在这里攻击爱国者并跑进来的。
This is a safe house.
这是一个安全屋。
And this is where Antifa hangs out here in Rose City.
这就是 Antifa 在玫瑰城闲逛的地方。
A lot of this stuff turns out not to be actual fact, but more like Chad's interpretation of things, which others would strongly disagree with.
很多东西都不是事实，而更像是查德对事物的解释，其他人会强烈反对。
But he is speaking the way most streamers and influencers would about Chandler's apartment-- that is, Antifa headquarters.
但他的说法与大多数主播和影响者谈论钱德勒的公寓（即 Antifa 总部）的方式相同。
Another streamer, Nick Shirley, runs up to Chad.
另一位主播尼克·雪莉跑向查德。
Chad catches him and his viewers up with the not exactly true things that he told me.
查德向他和他的观众讲述了他告诉我的不完全真实的事情。
They're just letting Chandler know that the bullying is done and they're taking back their streets.
他们只是让钱德勒知道欺凌行为已经结束，他们正在夺回街道。
Yeah, this is Rose City headquarters.
是的，这里是玫瑰城总部。
It's a storefront because he's a trust fund baby, and this is where they have their furry parties and all that.
这是一个店面，因为他是信托基金的宝贝，这里是他们举办毛茸茸的派对之类的地方。
I'll just clarify, this is not a storefront.
我要澄清一下，这不是店面。
It's not the headquarters of Rose City Antifa.
这不是玫瑰城 Antifa 的总部。
Chandler isn't a trust fund baby, and there don't seem to be any furry parties here, actually.
钱德勒不是信托基金的宝贝，实际上这里似乎没有任何毛茸茸的派对。
But anyway--
但无论如何——
So this is the spot where Antifa, what, they just-- their home base down here, basically?
所以这就是 Antifa 的所在地，什么，他们基本上就是——他们的大本营？
Yeah, this is where they hide.
是的，这就是他们藏身的地方。
This is the safe house, known as a safe house.
这就是安全屋，俗称安全屋。
Are you a fascist?
你是法西斯分子吗？
Are you a fascist?
你是法西斯分子吗？
No.
不。
At this point, Nick takes over from Chad, narrating for his live stream.
此时，尼克接替查德，为他的直播进行旁白。
He knows Chandler.
他认识钱德勒。
A lot of the people watching his stream know Chandler.
很多观看他直播的人都认识钱德勒。
Any regulars who tune into the Portland scene down here know who he is.
任何关注波特兰现场的常客都知道他是谁。
He's honestly, seems like a very-- he's a very normal person when you talk to him and have conversations.
老实说，当你和他交谈时，他看起来是一个非常正常的人。
But he has been the most well-known person for being the head of Antifa here in this part of Portland, Oregon.
但他是俄勒冈州波特兰这一地区最著名的 Antifa 领导人。
So what are people doing outside his house right now?
那么现在人们在他家外面做什么呢？
Yeah, well, Antifa has kind of been defeated today, as they took down his encampment.
是的，安提法今天有点被击败了，因为他们摧毁了他的营地。
So I think people want to see what Chandler had to say and if he was going to do anything about it.
所以我认为人们想看看钱德勒要说什么，以及他是否会采取任何行动。
Chandler pokes his head out the door.
钱德勒把头伸出门外。
He looks like a sleepy, tousled, blond, college kid who just rolled out of bed.
他看起来就像一个昏昏欲睡、头发凌乱、金发碧眼的大学生，刚从床上滚下来。
He seems completely unfazed by the mass of shouting people and phones just outside his house.
他似乎完全不为屋外的喧闹人群和电话所困扰。
A few of his friends-- the protester in the fuzzy skeleton suit, another in a keffiyeh and goggles, a couple in all black-- are hovering around him.
他的几个朋友——穿着毛茸茸的骷髅服的抗议者，另一个戴着头巾和护目镜的抗议者，还有一对穿着全黑衣服的人——在他周围徘徊。
Chandler stands in the middle of the open door and starts addressing the group of chanting, angry, excited, victorious people.
钱德勒站在敞开的门中间，开始向一群高呼口号、愤怒、兴奋、胜利的人们讲话。
It is entirely to the advantage of the powerful to have us, the working class, blame the powerless.
让我们工人阶级指责弱者，完全是强者的利益。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
No. Zoe Chace It is also very surprising to me to hear this Orson Welles-type voice come out of this young person's mouth.
不。佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 从这个年轻人的嘴里听到这种奥森·威尔斯式的声音也让我感到非常惊讶。
It is entirely to the advantage of the ruling class to convince you to blame the powerless, to blame the immigrants, to blame the left, to blame the right, to blame the rural farmers, to blame the liberals in the city, to blame the conservatives, right?
说服你责怪无权者、责怪移民、责怪左翼、责备右翼、责怪农民、责怪城市里的自由派、责备保守派，这完全是对统治阶级有利的，对吗？
He's ringed by streamers and phones, some of whom are just filming without comment, but a lot of whom are yelling at each other and teasing him.
他周围都是彩带和电话，其中一些人只是在不发表评论地拍摄，但很多人互相大喊大叫并取笑他。
Because of the way Chandler talks, the whole thing feels just of another era, as though he's on a literal soapbox and people in bowler hats are on a cobblestone street, booing and throwing tomatoes at him.
由于钱德勒说话的方式，整件事感觉就像是另一个时代，就好像他在一个真正的肥皂盒上，戴着圆顶礼帽的人们在鹅卵石街道上向他发出嘘声并向他扔西红柿。
But it's just phones bobbing everywhere, and people narrating and arguing while he's talking.
但到处都是电话铃声，人们在他说话的时候旁白和争论。
So when your SNAP benefits run out soon, when you go hungry, remember, it is the powerful.
因此，当您的 SNAP 福利很快用完时，当您挨饿时，请记住，它是强大的。
It is not the poor.
这不是穷人。
It is the Democrats.
这是民主党。
It is the Republicans.
这是共和党人。
It is the ruling class.
这是统治阶级。
It is the rich.
这是富人。
It is the people who determine what our economy does.
是人民决定了我们的经济做什么。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
They own our industry.
他们拥有我们的产业。
They own our fucking housing.
他们拥有我们该死的住房。
They own the hours of your fucking life.
他们拥有你他妈的生命中的时间。
Thank you, Chandler.
谢谢你，钱德勒。
Chandler Patey There is no left and right.
钱德勒·帕蒂（Chandler Patey）没有左和右。
There is only rich and poor.
只有富人和穷人。
There is only powerful and powerless.
只有强力和无力之分。
You are among the powerless.
你属于无能为力的人。
We are among the powerless.
我们属于无能为力的人。
People are starting to get restless, unsure what to do next since this Chandler catharsis seems to be getting old.
人们开始变得焦躁不安，不确定下一步该做什么，因为钱德勒的宣泄似乎已经过时了。
Chandler is still harboring terrorists after trying to gobble our knobs all night last night.
钱德勒昨晚整夜试图吞噬我们的旋钮后，仍然窝藏恐怖分子。
Eventually, people do start wandering away from Chandler's house.
最终，人们确实开始离开钱德勒的家。
Karlyn is giddy.
卡琳头晕目眩。
Is it fun, though?
不过，这有趣吗？
Karlyn Borysenko Yeah, it's a ton of fun.
Karlyn Borysenko 是的，这很有趣。
Aren't you having fun?
你不玩得开心吗？
Wasn't that fun?
那不是很有趣吗？
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Fun is not the word, but I'm looking for something to happen, and it was happening.
有趣这个词并不准确，但我正在寻找一些事情发生，而它确实发生了。
Yeah, it's an adrenaline rush.
是的，这是一种肾上腺素激增的感觉。
It's like this isn't-- this doesn't happen every day, right?
好像这不是——这不是每天都会发生，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
But it does seem like you guys are making it happen every day.
但看起来你们每天都在让它发生。
It seems like people are making it happen every day.
似乎人们每天都在让它发生。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Zoe Chace I give my business card to the guy who's famous for dressing as a frog at these protests.
佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace） 我把我的名片给了那个因在这些抗议活动中打扮成青蛙而闻名的人。
He was acting as a bouncer.
他担任保镖。
The scene at Chandler's ends with a bunch of streamers taking group photos of themselves simultaneously with their phones.
钱德勒家的场景以一群主播同时用手机自拍合影结束。
Good job, boys and girls.
干得好，男孩女孩们。
You are all good kids.
你们都是好孩子。
It's like 30 people.
好像有30个人。
Then some of them bring their phones close and bid fond farewells to their viewers online.
然后，他们中的一些人拿起手机，在网上向观众深情告别。
I'll see you guys tomorrow.
明天见。
I love you guys.
我爱你们。
We won tonight, baby.
今晚我们赢了，宝贝。
We won.
我们赢了。
We're doing it right now.
我们现在正在做。
So I'm going to help.
所以我要去帮忙。
I love you guys.
我爱你们。
I'll make a post when I get home.
等我回家我就发个帖子。
All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players.
世界就是一个舞台，所有的男人女人都只是演员。
You can't help feeling like this is so performative and absurd, that even the menacing moments are just part of a drama they invented to keep whoever's watching on social media entertained.
你不禁会觉得这太具有表演性和荒谬性，甚至连那些险恶的时刻也只是他们发明的戏剧的一部分，目的是让社交媒体上的观看者感到开心。
It's cartoonish.
这是卡通风格的。
It's over the top.
太夸张了。
And the search for red Antifa on this block can mean a random ICE protester in a frog costume.
在这个街区寻找红色 Antifa 可能意味着随机出现穿着青蛙服装的 ICE 抗议者。
It could mean that person who hit a right-wing influencer with a flagpole and then ran away.
这可能意味着那个人用旗杆击中了右翼影响者然后逃跑了。
But here's what else the word Antifa now means in America, partly because of the story the streamers are telling about Portland.
但这就是 Antifa 这个词现在在美国的其他含义，部分原因是流媒体讲述的关于波特兰的故事。
There's a great smooshing that's happening now.
现在正在发生一场巨大的轰动。
Protest means Antifa.
抗议意味着Antifa。
Antifa means violence.
Antifa意味着暴力。
And Antifa is rampant, organized, networked, well-funded, and belongs in the sizzle reel with the much more famous foreign terrorist groups that Americans all know.
Antifa 猖獗、有组织、网络化、资金充足，与美国人都知道的更为著名的外国恐怖组织并列。
Remember DHS head Kristi Noem at the White House roundtable with the streamers.
还记得国土安全部负责人克里斯蒂·诺姆 (Kristi Noem) 在白宫圆桌会议上与彩带的互动吗？
This network of Antifa is just as sophisticated as MS-13, as TDA, as ISIS, as Hezbollah, as Hamas, as all of them.
Antifa 的这个网络就像 MS-13、TDA、ISIS、真主党、哈马斯一样复杂。
So let's go inside the Antifa safe house, see for ourselves, and talk to the head of Antifa, so-called.
那么，让我们走进 Antifa 安全屋，亲眼看看，并与所谓的 Antifa 头目交谈。
After the break, the frog guy gets us in.
休息后，青蛙人带我们进去。
Zoe Chace.
佐伊·查斯。
Coming up, Chandler's apartment.
即将到来，钱德勒的公寓。
Could you be any more excited?
你还能更兴奋一点吗？
That's in a minute, Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台，一会儿我们的节目就会继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, The Making Of.
今天的节目，制作过程。
We're taking a look behind the scenes at the people who are creating a story about Portland that's fueling a national crackdown by the FBI, the Justice Department, Treasury, the IRS, DHS.
我们正在幕后观察那些正在编造有关波特兰的故事的人，这些故事正在推动联邦调查局、司法部、财政部、国税局、国土安全部的全国性镇压。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act two, Inside the Safe House.
第二幕，安全屋内部。
OK, so where we left off, our producers Zoe Chace and Suzanne Gaber were trying to actually meet the so-called leader of Antifa.
好的，我们的制片人 Zoe Chace 和 Suzanne Gaber 正试图真正会见 Antifa 的所谓领导人。
We pick up our story a couple nights later, outside his door.
几天后的晚上，我们在他的门外继续讲述我们的故事。
We're welcomed in, and the first thing we see is this sign that's posted right in front of the door.
我们受到欢迎，我们首先看到的是贴在门前的这个标志。
"Three cameras and the Second Amendment."
“三个摄像头和第二修正案。”
That's a lie.
那是一个谎言。
Zoe Chace OK, so what does it mean?
Zoe Chace 好的，那这是什么意思呢？
It's supposed to imply that there are three cameras, and also that I have a gun, but I have neither of those things.
它应该暗示有三个摄像机，而且我有一把枪，但我没有这些东西。
There are no cameras in here and I don't have a gun.
这里没有摄像头，我也没有枪。
So why did you put it up?
那么你为什么把它提出来呢？
Chandler Patey To dissuade people from walking in and, you know--
钱德勒·帕蒂（Chandler Patey）劝阻人们不要走进来，你知道——
Yeah.
是的。
Chandler Patey --doing weird, dumb stuff.
钱德勒·帕蒂——做一些奇怪、愚蠢的事情。
Just a prop.
只是一个道具。
No real guns, like so much else around here.
没有真枪，就像这里的其他地方一样。
So Chandler's apartment, it both looks like a safe house for a socialist and a dude living alone in his 20s.
所以钱德勒的公寓看起来既像一个社会主义者的安全屋，又像一个20多岁的独居男人的安全屋。
Two chairs, one desk, kitchenette.
两把椅子，一张桌子，一个小厨房。
He offered us tea in measuring cups.
他给我们盛了量杯的茶。
Two bookshelves.
两个书架。
Science fiction.
科幻小说。
Dune, Hitchhiker's Guide, Fahrenheit 451, Orwell, Vonnegut.
《沙丘》、《搭便车指南》、《华氏 451 度》、奥威尔、冯内古特。
But also, the complete works of Rosa Luxemburg, The Rise and Fall of Swedish Social Democracy.
还有罗莎·卢森堡的全集《瑞典社会民主党的兴衰》。
Psychology books.
心理学书籍。
Chandler said he'd been planning to do cognitive behavioral science before he dropped out of college.
钱德勒说，他在大学退学之前一直计划研究认知行为科学。
My name is Chandler Patey.
我叫钱德勒·帕蒂。
I'm a carpenter, and I guess I have an apartment that is right next to ICE, and I'm an activist and protester.
我是一名木匠，我想我在 ICE 旁边有一套公寓，而且我是一名活动家和抗议者。
And I can't call myself an organizer for this protest, but I do usually organize outside of this event, because there's no organization on this one.
我不能称自己是这次抗议活动的组织者，但我通常会在这次活动之外组织活动，因为这次活动没有任何组织。
[CHUCKLES]
[笑声]
Unfortunately not.
不幸的是没有。
Or rather, fortunately not, because first of all, obviously, I mean, you know that doesn't make any sense.
或者更确切地说，幸运的是没有，因为首先，显然，我的意思是，你知道这没有任何意义。
Antifa is not an organization.
Antifa 不是一个组织。
There are organizations that identify themselves as anti-fascist, right?
有些组织自称为反法西斯，对吧？
But there are organizations that identify themselves as socialist or conservative, and they aren't the entirety of that thing.
但有些组织自称为社会主义者或保守派，但它们并不是这一切的全部。
So it just doesn't make any sense to say that you are the leader of conservatism, or that you are the leader of socialism, because it's an ideology.
所以说你是保守主义的领导者，或者你是社会主义的领导者是没有任何意义的，因为它是一种意识形态。
You can't be the leader of an ideology.
你不可能成为一种意识形态的领导者。
That doesn't make sense.
这没有道理。
I think it's important to be as clear as I can about this question, what is Antifa?
我认为尽可能清楚地回答这个问题很重要：Antifa 是什么？
There are organizations with the word Antifa in their name.
有些组织的名称中含有 Antifa 一词。
Steel City Antifascist League, Atlanta Antifascists.
钢铁城反法西斯联盟、亚特兰大反法西斯。
One is famously from Portland, Rose City Antifa.
其中一位来自波特兰，著名的玫瑰城 Antifa。
It has a website.
它有一个网站。
It has a flag.
它有一面旗帜。
But the idea that all these different Antifa groups or anarchist groups are connected with a funding stream and a leadership, there's no public evidence that's true.
但是，所有这些不同的 Antifa 团体或无政府主义团体都与资金流和领导层有关的想法，没有公开证据是正确的。
That was the conclusion of the FBI during the first Trump administration.
这是特朗普第一届政府期间联邦调查局的结论。
Trump's former FBI director famously said there are violent, anarchist extremists who identify as Antifa in this country.
特朗普前联邦调查局局长曾说过一句名言：这个国家存在被称为 Antifa 的暴力无政府主义极端分子。
But he said it was an ideology, not an organization that the FBI could target.
但他表示，这是一种意识形态，而不是联邦调查局可以瞄准的组织。
Self-radicalized lone actors, he called them.
他称他们为自我激进的孤独演员。
The current Trump administration, the second one, has obviously gone in a very different direction.
现任特朗普政府，即第二届政府，显然已经走向了一个截然不同的方向。
So in this environment, you probably wouldn't want to be publicly identified as Antifa or the leader of Antifa, right now.
因此，在这种环境下，您现在可能不希望被公开认定为 Antifa 或 Antifa 的领导人。
So why are people calling you the leader of Antifa?
那么为什么人们称你为 Antifa 的领导人呢？
Because there's this idiot named Velly Ray who's a streamer.
因为有一个叫 Velly Ray 的白痴，他是一名主播。
He's very dumb.
他很蠢。
And I tried really hard to be nice to him for a long time, but he is just-- he's just so malicious and stupid.
很长一段时间以来，我真的很努力地对他好，但他只是——他是如此的恶意和愚蠢。
He just makes stuff up to be sensational.
他只是编造一些耸人听闻的东西。
And he'll just try and overdramatize the things that happened, and sometimes that would include vilifying us.
他会试图过度戏剧化所发生的事情，有时甚至包括诽谤我们。
I asked Velly about this.
我向维利询问了此事。
And he said he's been filming Chandler for six and a half months, and he stands by his claim about him 100%.
他说他已经拍摄钱德勒六个半月了，他百分百坚持自己的说法。
I'd say Velly Ray is like Chandler's Moriarty, his Lex Luthor, his Joker.
我想说维利·雷就像钱德勒的莫里亚蒂、他的莱克斯·卢瑟、他的小丑。
Except Chandler has so many nemeses, it's sort of hard to pick.
除了钱德勒的敌人太多之外，很难挑选。
Anyway, here's Velly Ray's stream from a few weeks ago.
不管怎样，这是 Velly Ray 几周前的直播。
I'm following Chandler.
我正在跟踪钱德勒。
[INDISTINCT CONVERSATION]
[模糊的对话]
Chandler, I love you!
钱德勒，我爱你！
Chandler!
钱德勒！
Chandler, don't go!
钱德勒，别走！
Chandler!
钱德勒！
Someone in Velly Ray's chat posted, "You're like Brando in Streetcar Named Desire right now."
Velly Ray 的聊天室里有人发帖说：“你现在就像《欲望号街车》中的白兰度一样。”
Chandler!
钱德勒！
Chandler, you just walked in a full circle.
钱德，你刚刚走了一整圈。
Because I was trying to walk away from you.
因为我曾试图离开你。
Initially, when Velly Ray came around, Chandler would do the thing that he does.
最初，当维利·雷出现时，钱德勒会做他所做的事情。
He talked to him, speechifying about political corruption and capitalism, unbidden.
他不请自来地与他交谈，谈论政治腐败和资本主义。
And Chandler says, at some point, Velly just started calling him the leader of Antifa.
钱德勒说，在某个时候，维利开始称他为 Antifa 的领导人。
He started it.
他开始了。
And then other people started repeating it because it got them clicks, right?
然后其他人开始重复它，因为它让他们点击了，对吧？
And then as that kept happening, and then they found out that I live right here in the so-called Antifa safe house, and then they came up with all sorts of weird fan fiction stories that got more clicks, if you just say "leader of Antifa" in them.
然后随着这种情况不断发生，然后他们发现我就住在所谓的 Antifa 安全屋里，然后他们想出了各种奇怪的同人小说故事，如果你在其中只说“Antifa 领袖”，这些故事就会获得更多点击。
So it didn't matter that it was me.
所以即使是我也没关系。
They just wanted that word.
他们只是想要这个词。
Well, you're a main character.
嗯，你是主角。
They needed-- you are a main character in the story of the protest.
他们需要——你是抗议故事中的主角。
That is true.
确实如此。
It is easier to give a face to something to get more clicks, right?
给某样东西一个面孔更容易获得更多点击，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
This is going to sound facetious, but it's not.
这听起来有些滑稽，但事实并非如此。
Was there anything actually flattering about that?
这真的有什么值得恭维的吗？
A little bit.
一点点。
It was like a joke that my friends and I-- we all thought it was hilarious at first, and then we realized that, oh, that's actually not funny anymore.
这就像一个笑话，我和我的朋友们一开始都觉得很搞笑，然后我们意识到，哦，这实际上不再好笑了。
And so now I actually get mad at my friends or other protesters in general if they even joke about it anymore, because it's like, stop saying that.
所以现在，如果我的朋友或其他抗议者再拿这件事开玩笑，我实际上会对他们生气，因为这就像，别再这么说了。
That's really, really annoying.
这真的非常非常烦人。
It makes me look super conceited if that joke continues.
如果这个笑话继续下去，我会显得非常自负。
The other reason to get mad at this joke, of course, is that it seems it'd be dangerous to be called the leader of Antifa by people who have a direct line to the White House and the director of the FBI.
当然，对这个笑话感到愤怒的另一个原因是，被与白宫和联邦调查局局长有直接联系的人称为 Antifa 的领导人似乎很危险。
I'm surprised the FBI hasn't been here already.
我很惊讶联邦调查局还没有来过这里。
Or have they?
或者他们有吗？
I mean, they're at ICE sometimes.
我的意思是，他们有时会去 ICE。
I mean, there are people who claim to be FBI at ICE sometimes.
我的意思是，有时候 ICE 里有些人自称是联邦调查局 (FBI)。
And I've been detained while the FBI was there.
当联邦调查局在那里时我就被拘留了。
And then they talked to me and asked me, so how are you organized, and who's your leader?
然后他们就跟我说话，问我，你们是怎么组织的，你们的领导是谁？
Is someone paying you?
有人付钱给你吗？
Which is all hilarious shit for the FBI to be asking.
对于联邦调查局来说，这真是搞笑的问题。
Are you that-- are you incompetent?
你是——你无能吗？
Are you stupid?
你是傻子吗？
Are you pretending to be stupid or do you think that I'm stupid?
你是在装傻还是觉得我傻？
Which is it?
是哪一个？
Think they're trying to get you to admit to being the leader of Antifa?
你认为他们试图让你承认自己是 Antifa 的领导人吗？
Not me.
不是我。
They asked-- for a while, they would ask everybody those-- basically those same questions.
他们问——有一段时间，他们会问每个人——基本上都是同样的问题。
It was just really funny because it's like, obviously, we're not being paid.
这真的很有趣，因为显然我们没有得到报酬。
What are you talking about?
你在说什么？
Can't you just like, look at all of our private information?
你就不能看看我们所有的私人信息吗？
And then two alleged FBI agents gave me a brief interview where I didn't really answer any of the questions and just asked them how they feel about capitalism and corporate oligarchy and things, and just disregarded everything they said.
然后，两名所谓的联邦调查局特工对我进行了一次简短的采访，我没有真正回答任何问题，只是问他们对资本主义和企业寡头政治之类的事情有何看法，而忽略了他们所说的一切。
It was pretty funny.
这很有趣。
You're playing into what they think is Antifa, you know, when you go in there to an ICE facility and you're talking to DHS and you're talking about how we need to get rid of rich people?
你知道，当你进入 ICE 设施并与国土安全部交谈时，你正在谈论他们认为是 Antifa 的东西，你正在谈论我们需要如何摆脱富人？
I'd say get rid of is not accurate, though.
不过，我想说“摆脱”并不准确。
Because I'm a Democratic socialist.
因为我是民主社会主义者。
I like democracy.
我喜欢民主。
What we need isn't to just go to the rich people with a small group of violent Antifa rebels and then kill them.
我们需要的不仅仅是带着一小群暴力的安提法叛乱分子去找富人，然后杀死他们。
That's dumb.
那太愚蠢了。
That won't result in lasting change.
这不会带来持久的改变。
What we need is to convince everyone to--
我们需要的是说服每个人——
This next piece of economic analysis from Chandler is going to play differently to you once I tell you what his father did for a living.
一旦我告诉你他的父亲以什么为生，钱德勒的下一篇经济分析对你来说将会有所不同。
So just listen a little closer than you maybe were going to, OK?
所以，请比你可能要听的更近一些，好吗？
Rich people hate us.
有钱人讨厌我们。
They will do everything they can to consolidate power.
他们将竭尽全力巩固权力。
They will destroy the United States economy and therefore the global economy, so that they can drive everybody out of business and then buy up fucking all of the shit that people need to sell for the lowest possible price and just keep consolidating power over and over and over.
他们将摧毁美国经济，进而摧毁全球经济，这样他们就可以让所有人破产，然后以尽可能低的价格买下人们需要出售的所有垃圾，然后一遍又一遍地巩固权力。
Now, Chandler was a kid during the financial crisis of 2008, and he saw a very particular side of it in his own house.
2008 年金融危机期间，钱德勒还是个孩子，他在自己的房子里看到了金融危机非常特别的一面。
So my family was-- started off being kind of wealthy up until-- so my dad worked at AIG Merrill Lynch.
所以我的家庭——开始时有点富裕，直到——所以我父亲在 AIG Merrill Lynch 工作。
Oh!
哦！
Zoe Chace That "oh" is the sound of someone thinking, oh, your dad was in the business of mortgage-backed securities that crashed the economy 17 years ago, when you were at a young and impressionable adolescent age.
佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）那个“哦”是有人在想，哦，你父亲从事抵押贷款支持证券业务，17 年前，当你还年轻、易受影响的青少年时，这导致了经济崩溃。
And now you're a committed socialist.
现在你是一名坚定的社会主义者。
Oh.
哦。
So and then was a higher up, like a marketing director or some shit like that.
然后是一个更高的职位，比如营销总监或者类似的东西。
And so we had a pretty big house that they built and designed themselves, because my grandpa was a structural engineer.
所以我们有一栋相当大的房子，是他们自己建造和设计的，因为我的爷爷是一名结构工程师。
My grandma is like a designer-- or an interior designer or something.
我的祖母就像一名设计师——或者室内设计师之类的。
My mom also has a degree in interior design or something.
我妈妈也拥有室内设计或其他学位。
And so they-- pretty wealthy.
所以他们——相当富有。
Not super rich, but pretty wealthy.
虽然不是超级有钱，但也算是相当有钱了。
But I don't know if you know, but AIG Merrill Lynch was one of the parties mainly responsible for the 2008 financial crisis.
但不知道你是否知道，AIG美林是2008年金融危机的主要责任方之一。
So when that happened, my dad lost everything and then went crazy and became a crippling alcoholic.
所以当那件事发生时，我父亲失去了一切，然后变得疯狂，变成了一个严重的酒鬼。
And then I just didn't really see him very much ever again, which was fine, because I never really saw him very much to begin with.
然后我就再也没有真正见过他，这很好，因为我从一开始就没有真正见过他。
And he was kind of weird.
而且他有点奇怪。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
Chandler Patey Oh, it's fine.
钱德勒·帕蒂 哦，没关系。
Just to say, Chandler denies his economic analysis comes from his personal experience.
只是说，钱德勒否认他的经济分析来自他的个人经历。
He says it comes from observations about history.
他说这来自对历史的观察。
Fair enough, nonetheless.
不过，这很公平。
Chandler does not like to talk about his family much.
钱德勒不太喜欢谈论他的家庭。
He says he doesn't really keep in touch with them.
他说他并没有真正与他们保持联系。
He grew up Mormon, just outside Portland.
他在波特兰郊外的摩门教长大。
His dad died earlier this year.
他的父亲今年早些时候去世了。
He has found a family of sorts here at the ICE facility.
他在 ICE 设施中找到了一个类似的家庭。
Sorry if that's corny to say.
抱歉，如果这么说有点老套。
While we were there for a few hours, people stopped by and changed their clothes, used the bathroom.
当我们在那里呆了几个小时时，人们停下来换衣服，使用浴室。
Someone gave him $10 for the water bill.
有人给了他 10 美元的水费。
A big wagon of medical supplies was sitting in the middle of the furniture-less living room.
没有家具的客厅中央停着一辆装满医疗用品的大车。
People had dragged it here after the camp was taken down by the cops.
警察拆除营地后，人们把它拖到了这里。
Some helped themselves to beef soup Chandler had on the stove.
有些人喝了钱德勒炉子上的牛肉汤。
Not the vegan, of course, who called it flesh soup.
当然，不是素食主义者，他们称之为肉汤。
Chandler found a partner, a romantic partner down here at the protest.
钱德勒在抗议活动中找到了一个伴侣，一个浪漫的伴侣。
His first significant romantic partner ever, he says.
他说，这是他有史以来第一个重要的浪漫伴侣。
They came by for a second.
他们过来了一会儿。
In any case, Chandler has a sign up on his bedroom door that says, "Don't go in my room.
无论如何，钱德勒的卧室门上贴着一块牌子，上面写着：“不要进入我的房间。
That's fucking weird." Implying that enough people came by and tried to go in his room that he had to put a sign up.
这真他妈奇怪。”这意味着有足够多的人走过并试图进入他的房间，他必须挂一个牌子。
Also, Chandler is autistic.
此外，钱德勒患有自闭症。
He calls himself very, very autistic.
他称自己非常非常自闭。
And something that he attributes to his autism is his ability to talk and talk and talk very calmly to whomever is talking to him, however they're talking to him, even if, in my opinion, it very much makes him look like the leader of Antifa.
他将自己的自闭症归因于他能够非常平静地与任何与他交谈的人交谈，无论他们在与他交谈，即使在我看来，这非常让他看起来像Antifa的领导人。
Like our night with the streamers, when he gave that press conference of sorts, standing in his doorway.
就像我们那天晚上的彩带一样，当时他站在门口举行了一场新闻发布会。
I mean, you coming out was this incredible catharsis.
我的意思是，你的出现是一种令人难以置信的宣泄。
And they were talking to us like this was spiking the football.
他们和我们说话就像这是在扣球一样。
It was a victory lap.
这是胜利的一圈。
The camp was down and now they were teasing, bullying, yelling at the head of Antifa at the Antifa safe house, wildly outnumbering him, and making fun of him and his friends.
营地被摧毁了，现在他们在安提法安全屋里嘲笑、欺凌、对着安提法的头大喊大叫，数量远远超过他，并取笑他和他的朋友们。
And why would you give them that content?
为什么你要给他们这些内容？
The content that I'm giving them is good for me.
我提供给他们的内容对我来说是有好处的。
Why?
为什么？
Chandler Patey Because no matter how many people I've failed to convince, it is almost guaranteed that there is at least some people in their audience who responded positively to what I said.
钱德勒·帕蒂：因为无论我未能说服多少人，几乎可以保证他们的听众中至少有一些人对我所说的话做出了积极的回应。
How do you figure?
你怎么看？
Chandler Patey Because I have seen it.
钱德勒·帕蒂 因为我见过。
I go to their comment sections.
我去他们的评论部分。
I look at their comment sections.
我看他们的评论部分。
Fucking especially on Velly Ray's videos.
他妈的尤其是 Velly Ray 的视频。
There were so many of his fucking viewers that actually were on my side.
有那么多他妈的观众实际上是站在我这边的。
So you really think that the commenters on the live streams are turning into Democratic Socialists some of them?
所以你真的认为直播中的评论者中的一些人正在变成民主社会主义者吗？
No, no, no. That would be crazy.
不，不，不。那太疯狂了。
I would love that, but no. I can only convince them on one point at a time.
我很想这样，但没有。我一次只能在一点上说服他们。
And--
还有——
Chandler isn't always so above it all.
钱德勒并不总是那么重要。
He admits he takes the bait sometimes and gets aggressive, physically aggressive, which of course gives the streamers exactly what they're looking for, which is footage of the violent Antifa.
他承认他有时会上钩，变得具有攻击性，身体上具有攻击性，这当然给了主播们他们想要的东西，那就是暴力 Antifa 的镜头。
He pulled up a video of a fight he definitely participated in with that provocateur guy Rhein we talked about earlier, and someone else called Right Side Rebel, who has long, swishy, blonde hair.
他调出了一段视频，视频中他肯定参与了与我们之前提到的那个煽动者莱茵的打斗，还有一个名叫右侧反叛者的人，他有一头长长的、飘逸的金发。
And then I get pulled off of Right Side Rebel.
然后我就被拉出了右侧叛军。
Everybody pulls me off of Right Side Rebel.
每个人都把我从右翼叛军中拉出来。
And then I restrain Right Side Rebel again, and then it fizzles out after that.
然后我再次克制右侧叛军，然后就失败了。
And--
还有——
But don't you think-- I mean, this is exactly what people are out there to stream.
但你不觉得吗——我的意思是，这正是人们想要直播的内容。
This is what they want to see.
这是他们希望看到的。
There was six more-- I don't know how many more fights that night.
还有六场——我不知道那天晚上又打了多少场。
But yeah, afterwards, I went and I apologized to Right Side Rebel and we smoothed it over.
但是，是的，后来我去了，并向右翼叛军道歉，我们就平息了这件事。
I was holding you back.
我一直在阻止你。
I apologize if it seemed like I was--
如果我看起来像是——
(SUBJECT) RIGHT SIDE Chandler Patey Actually, I apologize.
（主题）右侧 钱德勒·帕蒂 事实上，我很抱歉。
(SUBJECT) RIGHT SIDE Woman 5 You guys just united the country.
（主题）右侧女士 5 你们刚刚团结了国家。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
I was just trying-- So there was no reason for us to stay mad at each other.
我只是在尝试——所以我们没有理由互相生气。
And then we were very friendly with each other and had another interview with Right Side Rebel afterwards, just and we're hugging and stuff, showing that we are friends now.
然后我们彼此非常友好，之后又接受了 Right Side Rebel 的采访，只是我们拥抱之类的，表明我们现在是朋友了。
Friends is a strong word, but I was friendly, right?
朋友这个词很重，但我很友好，对吧？
Just again, so this clip so easily could be on Fox, and maybe has been on Fox.
再说一次，所以这个剪辑很容易在福克斯上播出，而且可能已经在福克斯上播出了。
Probably been on, yeah.
可能一直在，是的。
Zoe Chace And is just exactly, exactly what the administration wants to see in order to carry out their policies.
佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace） 这正是政府希望看到的，以执行他们的政策。
I absolutely regret this a lot.
我对此感到非常后悔。
I was just so angry at Rhein.
我对莱因非常生气。
It's so small and intimate, really, what's happening here.
它是如此的小和亲密，真的，这里发生的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, we know all of these people.
是的，我们认识所有这些人。
Well, most of them.
嗯，其中大多数。
And it's so small, it is really something that it travels up all the way to the White House.
而且它是如此之小，真的是可以一路飘到白宫的东西。
Right.
正确的。
Zoe Chace The point is, these people know each other.
Zoe Chace 重点是，这些人彼此认识。
They're in the same cast.
他们是同一个演员。
They perform the same play, night after night on the same small set.
他们在同一个小场景中夜复一夜地表演同样的戏剧。
They're like the dancers in West Side Story, coming out, dancing together on a city block, then going home to their respective neighborhoods until the next night, when they're dancing, fighting in front of an audience again.
他们就像《西区故事》中的舞者一样，出来，在一个街区一起跳舞，然后回到各自的社区，直到第二天晚上，他们再次在观众面前跳舞、战斗。
These conflicts, these pint-sized scraps on a street corner, are not the sort of thing that, in the past, our government has sent the most powerful military in the history of the world to resolve.
这些冲突，这些街角的小碎片，不是过去我们政府派出世界历史上最强大的军队来解决的那种事情。
They're not the sort of fights that have led to anyone being labeled a domestic terror group, a top national security priority.
这些战斗不会导致任何人被贴上国内恐怖组织的标签，这是国家安全的首要任务。
Maybe there is evidence out there that Antifa deserves that sort of treatment.
也许有证据表明 Antifa 应该得到这样的待遇。
But it's not in Portland.
但它不在波特兰。
Though I love the smell of napalm in the morning, there's no war here.
虽然我喜欢早上凝固汽油弹的味道，但这里没有战争。
Zoe Chace is a producer on our show.
佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 是我们节目的制片人。
Suzanne Gaber helped her report this story.
苏珊·加伯帮助她报道了这个故事。
In the weeks since they were in Portland in October, things have actually quieted down in front of the ICE facility.
自从他们十月份到达波特兰以来的几周里，ICE 设施前的情况实际上已经平静下来。
Fewer people out on the street.
街上的人越来越少了。
Some of the streamers have moved on to other cities, and other issues.
一些主播已经转移到其他城市，并解决其他问题。
Credits Ira Glass Well, the program was produced today by Nadia Reiman and Suzanne Garber, was edited by Laura Starecheski, Nancy Updike, and me.
图片来源 Ira Glass 嗯，该节目今天由 Nadia Reiman 和 Suzanne Garber 制作，由 Laura Starecheski、Nancy Updike 和我编辑。
The people who put our show together include Phia Bennin, Michael Comite, Ruthie Pettito, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Ryan Rumery, Ike Sriskandarajah, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, and Julie Whitaker.
制作我们节目的人员包括 Phia Bennin、Michael Comite、Ruthie Pettito、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Ryan Rumery、Ike Sriskandarajah、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Marisa Robertson-Textor 和 Julie Whitaker。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor's David Kestenbaum, our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的高级编辑是 David Kestenbaum，我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Nick Podany, Conrad Wilson, Troy Brynelson, Lillian Mongeau Hughes, Faiza Patel and Phil Richard at KCRW.
今天特别感谢 KCRW 的 Nick Podany、Conrad Wilson、Troy Brynelson、Lillian Mongeau Hughes、Faiza Patel 和 Phil Richard。
I've said this before, and I'm saying it again right now.
我以前已经说过了，现在我再说一遍。
If you sign up as This American Life partner, you help us continue making the show.
如果您注册成为《This American Life》合作伙伴，您就可以帮助我们继续制作该节目。
Plus, you get bonus episodes.
另外，您还可以获得奖励剧集。
The one that we just sent out a couple weeks ago and the one that we are about to send out I am so proud of.
我们几周前刚刚发出的一份和我们即将发出的一份我感到非常自豪。
These are such good episodes.
这些都是非常好的剧集。
You also get to listen ad free, and you get an archive of greatest hits episodes conveniently right in your podcast feed.
您还可以免费收听广告，并且可以在播客提要中方便地获得最热门剧集的存档。
Join at thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.
加入 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners。
The link is also in the show notes.
该链接也在节目注释中。
Thanks this week to Life Partner Mike Seaton.
本周感谢生活伴侣迈克·西顿。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
Hanging around with family for the holidays, he's been reading children's books to his nephews and nieces, and he realized something reading Curious George.
假期里，他和家人在一起，给侄子侄女们读儿童读物，在读《好奇的乔治》时，他意识到了一些事情。
The guy with the yellow hat right there is Antifa.
那个戴黄帽子的人就是Antifa。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。