874: Under One Roof - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #874 | November 14, 2025 874: Under One Roof Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 874 集 | 2025 年 11 月 14 日 874：同一屋檐下 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Hi, everybody, Ira here.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 大家好，我是 Ira。
My voice is weird today.
今天我的声音很奇怪。
I feel fine.
我感觉很好。
Heather loved being Mormon, till she and her husband split up.
希瑟喜欢成为摩门教徒，直到她和丈夫分手。
After that, she says, people in the church treated her and her kids differently.
她说，从那以后，教会里的人对待她和她的孩子的态度就不同了。
She realized she would never have the perfect Mormon family.
她意识到她永远不会拥有完美的摩门教家庭。
She was still a believer, but she started secretly doing things that members of the church aren't supposed to do.
她仍然是一名信徒，但她开始偷偷地做一些教会成员不应该做的事情。
She slept with men she wasn't married to.
她和没有结婚的男人睡过。
She drank.
她喝了。
But on the surface, she kept up appearances, lived a double life for years before she quit the church, a double life with occasional moments where she thought she might get found out.
但表面上，她保持着外表，在退出教会之前多年过着双重生活，这种双重生活偶尔会让她觉得自己可能会被发现。
As a Mormon person, you're not supposed to drink coffee.
作为摩门教徒，你不应该喝咖啡。
And that seems fairly innocuous, fairly simple.
这看起来相当无害，相当简单。
But I was slipping, and I was drinking coffee, and I had gotten myself a coffee before I picked up my kids from school.
但我正在滑倒，我正在喝咖啡，在接孩子放学之前我已经给自己喝了一杯咖啡。
And they were young enough that they wouldn't understand or get it.
而且他们还太年轻，他们不会理解或理解它。
And-- oh, my gosh, yeah, and my friend saw me and waved, and started to walk over to the car.
然后——哦，天哪，是的，我的朋友看到了我，挥了挥手，然后开始走向汽车。
No, she just saw me in the car pool line, standing there.
不，她只是在拼车队伍中看到我站在那里。
But I had a hot coffee in my car, and it was fall.
但我在车里喝了一杯热咖啡，而且当时是秋天。
And that meant, if I unrolled the window, the smell of coffee was going to waft out and smack her in the face.
这意味着，如果我打开窗户，咖啡的香味就会飘出来，扑到她的脸上。
And so I started to panic, and I unrolled the window.
于是我开始惊慌，我打开了窗户。
And I can remember the panic.
我还记得当时的恐慌。
And you just learn to lie so easily and so quickly.
你就这么容易、这么快地学会了撒谎。
And I think I said, oh, I'm not drinking it.
我想我说过，哦，我不喝它。
I just love the smell in fall.
我只是喜欢秋天的气味。
Don't worry, don't worry.
别担心，别担心。
I just love the smell.
我只是喜欢这种气味。
And she accepted that and said, oh, I do too, isn't it so tempting?
她接受了并说，哦，我也喜欢，这不是很诱人吗？
And we both just kind of sat there.
我们俩就坐在那里。
Obviously, I didn't buy a coffee for the smell.
显然，我买咖啡不是为了咖啡的味道。
It was just a conversation that was completely fake, and we both engaged in it.
这只是一场完全虚假的谈话，我们都参与其中。
And so when she said, oh, it's so tempting, did you take it as her saying, this is our secret, I love you, we're good?
所以当她说，哦，这太诱人了，你是否认为她在说，这是我们的秘密，我爱你，我们很好？
I took it as her, saying, I'm going to pretend to believe your lie, because it's an easier path for both of us.
我以为她是在说，我要假装相信你的谎言，因为这对我们俩来说都是一条更容易的路。
And I think my kids probably did that a lot, too, pretended to believe my lies.
我想我的孩子们可能也经常这样做，假装相信我的谎言。
This is actually why I wanted to talk to Heather.
这实际上就是我想和希瑟谈谈的原因。
Our show today is about how different members of the family perceive the same events differently.
我们今天的节目是关于不同的家庭成员对同一事件的不同看法。
And what was happening inside Heather's family during those years seemed like such an extreme example of that, because she was trying to deceive her kids.
那些年希瑟家里发生的事情似乎就是一个极端的例子，因为她试图欺骗她的孩子。
She was raising three daughters on her own, raising them in the church, she says, to be the perfect, pure vessels of Mormonism for their future husbands.
她独自抚养三个女儿，在教堂里抚养她们，她说，让她们成为她们未来丈夫完美、纯洁的摩门教容器。
Her words, not mine.
她的话，不是我的。
This is partly because it was the only way she knew how to be a mother.
部分原因是这是她知道如何成为母亲的唯一方式。
But also, Heather loved her own childhood growing up in the church.
而且，希瑟也很喜欢自己在教堂长大的童年。
She wanted to give that to them.
她想把它给他们。
And Heather wasn't just still a believer.
希瑟不仅仍然是一个信徒。
She's the kind of try-hard, can-do believer who became Relief Society President in her ward, which meant that she ministered to the women in about 150 families.
她是那种努力、肯干的信徒，后来成为她所在支会的救济协会主席，这意味着她为大约 150 个家庭的妇女施助。
Heather stood at a pulpit every Sunday, teaching Mormon doctrine.
希瑟每周日都站在讲坛上讲授摩门教教义。
And she did that knowing that her kids sometimes saw her break the rules.
她这样做是因为她知道她的孩子们有时会看到她违反规则。
Like, for example, after her divorce, she stopped wearing the special Mormon undergarments that adults are supposed to wear.
例如，离婚后，她不再穿成年人应该穿的特殊摩门教内衣。
Her kids knew that she didn't wear them.
她的孩子们知道她没有穿它们。
Because they would see me change, and I didn't have them on.
因为他们会看到我的改变，而我没有穿它们。
And do you remember any moments where they saw this, and they asked?
你还记得他们看到这个并询问的任何时刻吗？
No, they never asked.
不，他们从来没有问过。
They never said a word.
他们一句话也没说。
What do you make of that?
你对此有何看法？
Heather I don't even know what to make of that.
希瑟 我什至不知道该怎么办。
First, I feel like they probably felt confused.
首先，我觉得他们可能感到困惑。
And also, I would think resentment, because I was a strict mom, and I held them to the standard of appearances at church.
而且，我会想到怨恨，因为我是一个严格的妈妈，我对他们在教堂的仪表表现要求很高。
And I taught from the pulpit, I taught gospel doctrine.
我在讲坛上教导，教导福音教义。
And then for them to go home and see that the words coming out of my mouth did not match the simplest of actions, like the type of underwear I was wearing.
然后让他们回家看到我嘴里说的话与最简单的行为不符，比如我穿的内衣类型。
Do you think that they weren't saying anything, because it's just one of those things when you're a kid sometimes, where you don't even know what it means, but you just know, don't go there?
你是否认为他们什么也没说，因为这只是你小时候有时会发生的事情之一，你甚至不知道这意味着什么，但你只是知道，不要去那里？
Yeah, I think that's exactly what it was.
是的，我想事情就是这样。
I think it was laden with meaning, and so they knew not to ask.
我认为这充满了意义，所以他们知道不要问。
Mostly, Heather tried to keep things on the down low from her kids.
大多数情况下，希瑟都试图对她的孩子们保密。
She kept a bottle of vodka hidden in the house, high on the third shelf of a closet, with sweaters and other clothes that she was sure the girls didn't go into.
她在房子里藏了一瓶伏特加，放在衣柜第三层架子的高处，里面藏着毛衣和其他衣服，她确信女孩们不会穿这些衣服。
And she says there were no visible clues of her secret life in the house.
她说，没有任何明显的线索表明她在房子里的秘密生活。
Until my business partner bought me a Keurig.
直到我的商业伙伴给我买了一台 Keurig。
The little coffee maker, the counter coffee maker.
小咖啡机，柜台咖啡机。
And I immediately went out and bought a tier with all of the herbal teas and hot chocolates, because those are kosher.
我立即出去买了一层所有的花草茶和热巧克力，因为这些都是犹太洁食。
And I made sure that those were on display.
我确保这些都被展示出来。
And for years, every time someone would come to my house, the first thing I would do is gesture to the Keurig, to the coffee maker, and say, we love this for hot cocoa, for the kids.
多年来，每次有人来我家，我做的第一件事就是指着 Keurig、咖啡机说，我们喜欢用它来喝热可可，适合孩子们。
I would lead with that, because it was just such, to me, a blaring symbol of rebellion and slipping.
我会以此为主导，因为对我来说，它就是叛逆和滑倒的鲜明象征。
They were deep in the pantry in-- honestly, it's a Cheez-Its multi-pack box.
它们在食品储藏室深处——老实说，这是一个 Cheez-Its 多包装盒。
Because with the kids lunches, you get the bigger boxes, and then you could just take out all the single serves, and you just put them in it.
因为对于孩子们的午餐，你会得到更大的盒子，然后你可以把所有的单份食物拿出来，然后把它们放进去。
And then, was the scheme that once the kids were off at school, you were home alone, and you could put the little Keurig capsule in and make yourself a coffee?
然后，是不是一旦孩子们放学了，你一个人在家，你就可以把 Keurig 小胶囊放进去给自己泡杯咖啡？
Or were you--
或者你是——
I was doing it first thing in the morning.
我早上第一件事就是做这件事。
You would do it first thing in the morning?
你会在早上做第一件事吗？
Yeah, I was doing it first thing in the morning, and they could smell it.
是的，我早上第一件事就是这样做，他们可以闻到它的味道。
And I don't know how to explain it.
我不知道如何解释。
It's like-- I assumed they wouldn't know what it was because they had never been exposed to it.
就像——我以为他们不知道那是什么，因为他们从未接触过它。
They didn't see coffee at their friends' houses.
他们在朋友家里没有看到咖啡。
They didn't--
他们没有——
This is the world they-- it's no like coffee--
这就是他们的世界——这不像咖啡——
They don't live in a world with coffee.
他们并不生活在一个有咖啡的世界里。
So you can get away with lying about a lot of things.
所以你可以在很多事情上撒谎。
Oh, so your 10-year-old isn't smelling coffee and thinking it's coffee.
哦，所以你 10 岁的孩子不会闻到咖啡的味道并认为这是咖啡。
Your 10-year-old is smelling coffee and just thinking--
你 10 岁的孩子闻着咖啡的味道，心里想着——
It's a smell.
这是一种气味。
And I mean, she might have been making the connection all along.
我的意思是，她可能一直在建立这种联系。
But it was a don't ask, don't tell, don't acknowledge policy.
但这是一项不问、不说、不承认的政策。
Your oldest is Ashley?
你最大的是阿什利？
Heather Yeah, Ashley.
希瑟 是的，阿什利。
She's 22 now.
她现在22岁了。
Yeah, you should.
是的，你应该。
Ira Glass So I reached out to Ashley.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）所以我联系了阿什利（Ashley）。
She was 12 the year they got the Keurig.
他们获得 Keurig 的那一年，她 12 岁。
Her little sisters were 9 and 8.
她的两个妹妹分别是 9 岁和 8 岁。
She came into the studio.
她来到工作室。
And from the moment I brought up the Keurig, her memory was totally different from her mom's.
从我提起 Keurig 的那一刻起，她的记忆就和她妈妈的完全不同了。
Heather, as you heard, remembers it was her business partner.
正如你所听到的，希瑟记得那是她的商业伙伴。
But Ashley said, no. She had money she'd earned babysitting.
但阿什利说，不。她有靠保姆挣来的钱。
It was the first big, grown up Christmas present she ever bought her mom.
这是她给妈妈买的第一份大的、成人的圣诞礼物。
I can't believe she didn't tell you that I was the one that got it.
我不敢相信她没有告诉你我就是得到它的人。
It was a big deal.
这是一件大事。
I saved up my money to get her this Keurig.
我攒钱给她买了这个 Keurig。
And when you bought the Keurig, what did you think it was for?
当您购买 Keurig 时，您认为它的用途是什么？
For coffee.
喝咖啡。
Ira Glass As she said, she got the idea for this at her friend Elsha's house.
Ira Glass 正如她所说，这个想法是她在朋友 Elsha 家里想到的。
Elsha and she were best friends, debate partners.
艾尔莎和她是最好的朋友，辩论伙伴。
And their moms got to know each other and went into business together.
他们的妈妈互相认识并一起做生意。
Elsha's family was ex-Mormon, so Ashley would see Elsha's parents drink coffee, or go to the store or the gym on Sunday, which Mormons aren't supposed to do on the Sabbath.
艾尔莎的家人是前摩门教徒，所以阿什利会看到艾尔莎的父母在周日喝咖啡，或者去商店或健身房，而摩门教徒在安息日不应该这样做。
And they seem normal and happy, and those things did not seem harmful to their family at all.
而且他们看上去很正常，很幸福，那些事情似乎对他们的家人来说根本没有什么坏处。
I was so fascinated by having a glass of wine at dinner, seeing parents just having a glass of wine at dinner.
我对晚餐时喝一杯酒非常着迷，看到父母在晚餐时只喝一杯酒。
And I don't know how to explain it.
我不知道如何解释。
It felt cool, very cool.
感觉很酷，非常酷。
And I-- I want my family to be like this.
我希望我的家人也是这样。
I was with them a lot growing up.
我和他们一起长大。
And having a Keurig in the house was so normal.
家里有一个 Keurig 是很正常的事情。
And seeing that, I'm like, why can't we have that?
看到这一点，我想，为什么我们不能拥有它呢？
So you bought it for your mom, understanding, my mom drinks coffee, I'm buying this for her so she can have coffee.
所以你给你妈妈买了这个，理解，我妈妈喝咖啡，我给她买这个，这样她就可以喝咖啡了。
Yes.
是的。
Like I want you to drink coffee.
就像我想让你喝咖啡一样。
Like me buying her a Keurig, I think she kind of thought, oh, my gosh, Ashley understands me.
就像我给她买了 Keurig 一样，我想她有点想，哦，天哪，阿什利理解我。
I'm seen by my daughter, and supported in a way.
我的女儿看到了我，并在某种程度上支持了我。
Like it wasn't-- I was on the same wavelength.
好像不是——我的波长相同。
Like, yeah, let's get a Keurig.
就像，是的，让我们买一个 Keurig。
She had no idea that her mom didn't remember it this way at all.
她不知道妈妈根本不记得这样的事情。
But she said she was so young, it was very possible that she never told her Mom, this is for you to drink coffee, I know you drink coffee.
但她说她那么小，很可能从来没有告诉过妈妈，这是给你喝咖啡的，我知道你喝咖啡。
Honestly, because I was 12, I don't-- I guess I wouldn't up and say that.
老实说，因为我当时 12 岁，所以我想我不会站起来这么说。
So do you think what might have happened-- I just am trying to get this straight.
那么你认为可能发生了什么——我只是想弄清楚这一点。
So you think you might have given her the Keurig, understanding what the Keurig is for, but she didn't get the hint?
所以您认为您可能已经给了她 Keurig，了解 Keurig 的用途，但她没有得到提示？
I think maybe that's what's going on here.
我想也许这就是这里发生的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
Or she didn't want to believe that I saw that side of her.
或者她不想相信我看到了她的那一面。
Oh, that's so interesting.
哦，那太有趣了。
She couldn't understand what you were trying to show her, because she wasn't ready for it?
她无法理解你想向她展示什么，因为她还没有准备好？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass I mean, your mom said to me that you and your sisters were properly raised Mormon children, and she was betting on the fact that you hadn't been exposed to coffee at friends' houses or elsewhere.
艾拉·格拉斯：我的意思是，你妈妈对我说，你和你的姐妹都是被正确抚养长大的摩门教孩子，她打赌你没有在朋友家或其他地方喝过咖啡。
So when you would smell coffee at home, you guys wouldn't even know it was coffee.
所以当你在家闻到咖啡的味道时，你们甚至不知道那是咖啡。
OK.
好的。
Yeah, I think she's underestimating what I knew about the world at that time.
是的，我认为她低估了我当时对世界的了解。
So Ashley and her mom were in this situation where they each saw why the Keurig arrived very differently.
因此，阿什利和她的妈妈就处于这种情况，他们各自都明白为什么 Keurig 到达的原因截然不同。
But at the time, each of them thought they both saw it the same way, which is so weird that I wondered about Ashley's sisters.
但当时，她们每个人都认为自己的看法是一样的，这太奇怪了，我对阿什利的姐妹们感到好奇。
Again, they were 8 and 9 when the Keurig arrived.
当 Keurig 到达时，他们又是 8 岁和 9 岁。
[PHONE RINGING] We called her youngest sister.
[电话铃声]我们打电话给她最小的妹妹。
We only used it for hot chocolate, and I can't-- yeah, I don't think she used it for coffee at all.
我们只用它来喝热巧克力，而我不能——是的，我认为她根本没有用它来喝咖啡。
So when Ashley got her the Keurig, as far as you understood, that was a machine for cocoa?
那么，当阿什利给她买了 Keurig 时，据你所知，那是一台可可机器？
[LAUGHTER] Ashley Hot chocolate machine.
[笑声] Ashley 热巧克力机。
Your mom explained to me that she was drinking coffee out of it all the time, and she was just betting on the fact that you just didn't know what coffee smelled like.
你妈妈向我解释说，她一直在喝咖啡，她只是打赌你只是不知道咖啡闻起来是什么味道。
Is that possible?
这可能吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
No, that could definitely be true.
不，这绝对是真的。
Because I didn't know what coffee smelled like, and I didn't notice at all.
因为我不知道咖啡是什么味道，我根本没有注意到。
So that's crazy.
所以这太疯狂了。
I didn't know that.
我不知道。
Yeah.
是的。
Your mom said she was drinking coffee in the house all the time, making it all the time.
你妈妈说她一直在家里喝咖啡，一直在煮咖啡。
What?
什么？
Wow.
哇。
Yeah, I had no idea.
是的，我不知道。
That's mind blowing to me.
这让我很兴奋。
Yeah, I totally thought she only started drinking it a couple years ago.
是的，我完全以为她几年前才开始喝。
I mean, when we left the church.
我是说，当我们离开教堂时。
Can I blow your mind with one other piece of information?
我可以用另一条信息让你大吃一惊吗？
Yes, please.
是的，请。
Ira Glass Ask your sister Ashley if she knew.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 问问你姐姐阿什莉 (Ashley) 是否知道。
Did you know, Ashley?
你知道吗，阿什利？
Ashley Yes.
阿什利 是的。
I'm actually mind blown that you thought that she just started drinking coffee a few years ago.
事实上，你以为她几年前才开始喝咖啡，这让我很震惊。
You had no idea?
你不知道吗？
Yeah, what?
是啊，什么？
Wait, that's crazy.
等等，这太疯狂了。
Yeah, because I thought it was such a huge sin, mom would never do that.
是的，因为我认为这是一个巨大的罪孽，妈妈永远不会这样做。
That's crazy.
太疯狂了。
Yeah, I'm mind blown.
是的，我心碎了。
I can't believe that.
我简直不敢相信。
I can't believe that!
我简直不敢相信！
I'm dead.
我死了。
Annabelle That's insane, that's insane.
安娜贝尔 这太疯狂了，这太疯狂了。
This is as good a time as any to tell you that Heather is on a TV show.
现在正是告诉您希瑟正在电视节目中的好时机。
If you know the show, I'm guessing that maybe you've already figured that out.
如果你了解这部剧，我猜你可能已经明白了。
Heather is Heather Gay, one of The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, kind of an audience favorite from that show.
希瑟是希瑟·盖伊，盐湖城的真正主妇之一，是该节目中观众最喜欢的。
And one of the things that comes out on that show, and in two books that Heather's written, is the shame that she sometimes still feels, the fear of judgment, when she's not following the church's rules.
在那个节目以及希瑟写的两本书中，出现的一件事是，当她不遵守教会的规则时，她有时仍然会感到羞耻，害怕被评判。
What was interesting about talking to Heather's three kids-- I also talked to her third daughter, Georgia-- was that they felt none of that.
与希瑟的三个孩子交谈的有趣之处在于，我还与她的第三个女儿乔治亚交谈，他们对此没有任何感觉。
None.
没有任何。
They'd always seen themselves as one of those Mormon families that bends the rules.
他们一直认为自己是那些违反规则的摩门教家庭之一。
They'd always stop to do things like pick up Mexican food after church on Sunday, even though you're not supposed to get takeout on Sabbath.
他们总是会停下来做一些事情，比如周日教堂后买墨西哥食物，尽管你不应该在安息日叫外卖。
The mom not wearing church undergarments wasn't a big deal to them.
妈妈不穿教堂内衣对他们来说没什么大不了的。
They thought that rule was silly anyway.
无论如何，他们认为这个规则很愚蠢。
Ashley always figured she and her mom both felt hemmed in by the church.
阿什利总是认为她和她的妈妈都感觉被教堂包围了。
Like I just understood her.
就像我刚刚理解她一样。
I could see that it just wasn't her, that she wanted something different.
我看得出那不是她，她想要一些不同的东西。
Ashley and I picked up the phone one more time, to call her mom.
我和阿什莉再次拿起电话，给她妈妈打电话。
This is the best day ever.
这是有史以来最好的一天。
I'm really enjoying this.
我真的很享受这个。
And Ashley told Heather what she told me, that she was the one who bought the Keurig, and that she did it knowing that her mom drank coffee, trying to say, go ahead, drink coffee at home.
阿什利告诉希瑟她告诉我的事情，她是买了 Keurig 的人，而且她知道她妈妈喝咖啡，所以她买了咖啡，试图说，继续，在家喝咖啡。
That's fine with me.
这对我来说没问题。
This, of course, was news to Heather.
这对希瑟来说当然是新闻。
Heather I don't know why it's making me emotional.
希瑟 我不知道为什么这让我情绪激动。
I just-- it feels like you're kind of giving me permission to be myself, and I-- I didn't know all of that behind it.
我只是——感觉就像你允许我做我自己，而我——我不知道这背后的一切。
I didn't know that.
我不知道。
You didn't?
你没有？
That makes me want to cry, too.
这让我也想哭。
I didn't.
我没有。
Ashley Aw.
阿什利·奥.
I really-- I can't believe we never had that conversation.
我真的——我不敢相信我们从来没有进行过这样的谈话。
That was totally-- totally what it was.
完全就是这样。
Probably because I felt like I couldn't embrace it, because I felt somehow that I was letting you down, letting the church down, letting down your sisters by being brazen in something that I wasn't allowed to drink.
可能是因为我觉得我无法接受它，因为我觉得不知怎的，我让你失望了，让教堂失望了，因为厚颜无耻地喝了一些我不被允许喝的东西而让你的姐妹们失望了。
And a good mom doesn't have a Keurig.
好妈妈没有 Keurig。
And I was already a bad mom because I'd gotten divorced, and I was already a bad mom because I was working.
因为我离婚了，我已经是一个坏妈妈了，因为我在工作，我已经是一个坏妈妈了。
I was just trying to cling to the standards that I thought-- that I'd been told defined a good person from a bad person.
我只是想坚持我认为的标准——有人告诉我定义好人与坏人。
But it's funny, by giving you the Keurig, Ashley is trying to say, I know you drink coffee.
但有趣的是，通过给你 Keurig，阿什利想说，我知道你喝咖啡。
Do you think you just weren't ready to hear that from Ashley?
你认为你还没有准备好从阿什利那里听到这些吗？
I wasn't ready to hear that from-- I didn't admit it to myself.
我还没准备好听到这样的话——我自己也没承认。
So I definitely wasn't ready to hear it from my daughter, who I was supposed to keep shielded from all of those things.
所以我绝对没有准备好从我女儿那里听到这些，我应该让她免受所有这些事情的影响。
And when I say keep shielded, not from coffee, but from my failings.
当我说要屏蔽的时候，不是远离咖啡，而是远离我的失败。
Oh, no, mom, that breaks my heart that you-- it all breaks my heart.
哦，不，妈妈，你让我心碎——这一切都让我心碎。
But I just always-- yeah, I understood you, and I feel like we were in the same boat.
但我总是——是的，我理解你，我觉得我们在同一条船上。
And when you finally were like, guys, I don't want to go to church anymore, I felt this sense of relief for myself, but also for you, that you don't have to live a lie just for us.
当你们最终说，伙计们，我不想再去教堂时，我为自己，也为你们感到了一种解脱的感觉，你们不必只为了我们而生活在谎言中。
You know?
你知道？
Yeah.
是的。
Ashley And it started with the Keurig.
Ashley 这一切都是从 Keurig 开始的。
It started with the Keurig, the gateway.
它从 Keurig（网关）开始。
It did.
确实如此。
No, the fact that-- Heather The gateway appliance.
不，事实是—— Heather 网关设备。
[LAUGHTER] Wait, I still have that Keurig.
[笑声]等等，我还有那个 Keurig。
I still use it.
我还在用它。
You do?
你做？
That's the same one?
是同一个吗？
Wait, that makes me want to cry.
等等，这让我想哭。
The Keurig!
凯里格！
People in the same family, people who live under the same roof, can see things so radically differently, even simple things like a coffee maker.
同一家庭中的人们，生活在同一屋檐下的人们，对事物的看法截然不同，即使是像咖啡机这样简单的事物。
Today, on our program, we have another very loving family, two parents, two kids.
今天，在我们的节目中，我们有另一个非常有爱的家庭，两个父母，两个孩子。
And they're in this situation, living through the same events, seeing the exact same things that they all have very different takes on.
他们处于这种情况，经历着同样的事件，看到完全相同的事情，但他们都有截然不同的看法。
They try to get on the same page, but it's hard.
他们试图达成共识，但这很难。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
Act 1, A House Divided.
第一幕，分裂之家。
There's a spot in McKenzie and Bella's house that's perfect for eavesdropping on their parents, a small sitting nook on the second floor at the top of the stairs.
麦肯齐和贝拉的房子里有一个地方非常适合偷听他们的父母，那就是二楼楼梯顶上的一个小角落。
When their parents are downstairs talking in the kitchen or in their bedroom, sound travels up, making its way through the stairwell.
当他们的父母在楼下的厨房或卧室里说话时，声音会向上传播，穿过楼梯间。
So you can hear everything that's going on.
这样您就可以听到正在发生的一切。
Or you sit in the rocking chair that's right across the door.
或者你坐在门对面的摇椅上。
So it's like they'll have the door closed, and you can hear murmurs.
所以就像他们把门关上一样，你可以听到窃窃私语。
We're kind of in the shadow, like I know what's going on, but I don't know exact things.
我们有点处于阴影之中，就像我知道发生了什么，但我不知道确切的事情。
That's McKenzie, she's 17.
那是麦肯齐，她17岁。
The girls' parents, Jenni and Fidel, almost never fight.
女孩的父母珍妮和菲德尔几乎从不吵架。
They're one of those families that likes spending time together.
他们是那些喜欢共度时光的家庭之一。
They do arts and crafts together, go on road trips and don't kill each other.
他们一起做艺术和手工艺，一起公路旅行，并且不会互相残杀。
That kind of family.
那样的家庭。
The girls are close to their parents.
女孩们与父母的关系很亲密。
So all this disagreement is abnormal in their house.
所以这种分歧在他们家里是不正常的。
But since last November, when President Trump won the election, they've been in a stalemate over whether Fidel should self-deport, return to Mexico, where he hasn't lived in 30 years.
但自从去年11月特朗普总统赢得大选以来，他们在菲德尔是否应该自我驱逐返回墨西哥的问题上一直陷入僵局，他已经30年没有在那里居住了。
The girls exist on the periphery of this stalemate, living their high school lives during the day, dipping in and out of their parents' discussions at home at night.
女孩们处于这种僵局的边缘，白天过着高中生活，晚上则在家里参与父母的讨论。
Sometimes I'll be upstairs, and they'll be discussing stuff, and I'll turn down my music to make sure that I'm not going crazy thinking about what they're talking about, because they seem to be-- it's important.
有时我会在楼上，他们会讨论一些事情，我会关掉音乐，以确保我不会疯狂地思考他们在谈论的内容，因为他们似乎——这很重要。
Here's Bella, she's 15.
这是贝拉，她 15 岁。
Bella Rivera Every once in a while, when I'm watching TV or something, and I'm sitting on the couch, I pause my show and listen for a few minutes, and then I'll be like, OK, cool.
贝拉·里维拉（Bella Rivera） 每隔一段时间，当我看电视或其他东西时，当我坐在沙发上时，我会暂停节目并听几分钟，然后我会说，好吧，酷。
That's what's happening.
这就是正在发生的事情。
And then I'll turn my show back on.
然后我会重新打开我的节目。
And yeah.
是的。
One of our producers, Valerie Kipnis, was interested in how families are making this decision over whether to self-deport, and especially the families of people who do not agree on what to do or how to handle this.
我们的制片人之一瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis) 对家庭如何做出是否自我驱逐的决定很感兴趣，尤其是那些不同意做什么或如何处理这一问题的人的家庭。
She's been following the Riveras for most of this year.
今年大部分时间她都在关注里维拉一家。
The parents were definitely, emphatically not in agreement.
父母绝对不同意。
They live outside Raleigh, North Carolina.
他们住在北卡罗来纳州罗利郊外。
Jenni Rivera is a high school math teacher.
珍妮·里维拉 (Jenni Rivera) 是一名高中数学老师。
She's a citizen, born here, which you might think would mean that her husband, Fidel, who's from Mexico, would have a path to citizenship.
她是一名公民，出生在这里，你可能会认为这意味着她来自墨西哥的丈夫菲德尔将有一条获得公民身份的途径。
But there's a longstanding part of immigration law.
但移民法中有一个长期存在的部分。
Fidel crossed into the States illegally, back when he was 18, left, and came back into the States.
菲德尔18岁时非法进入美国，离开后又回到美国。
And because of that, he cannot get citizenship through Jenni until he spends 10 years living outside the United States.
因此，在他在美国境外生活 10 年之前，他无法通过 Jenni 获得公民身份。
So he's been living in the US without legal status for 30 years.
就这样，他在没有合法身份的情况下在美国生活了30年。
And for most of this year, he's been in a prolonged, high stakes dispute with Jenni over whether to stay here.
今年的大部分时间里，他与珍妮就是否留在这里进行了一场旷日持久、风险巨大的争论。
Valerie wanted to see how making this decision would reverberate around the walls of this one house.
瓦莱丽想看看这一决定会对这座房子的墙壁产生怎样的反响。
Not just how Jenni and Fidel would figure out what to do, but how their kids, Bella and McKenzie, would deal with the stress of this choice that was being discussed for months and could upend their entire lives.
不仅是珍妮和菲德尔将如何弄清楚该怎么做，还有他们的孩子贝拉和麦肯齐将如何应对这一选择带来的压力，这个选择已经讨论了几个月，可能会颠覆他们的一生。
Here's Valerie.
这是瓦莱丽。
In spite of being incredibly close, McKenzie and Bella are a classic case of opposites.
尽管麦肯齐和贝拉的关系非常亲密，但他们却是典型的对立例子。
McKenzie has a high, girly laugh, long hair, gold hoops, a senior in high school.
麦肯齐有着高亢、少女般的笑声，长发，戴着金箍，是一名高中生。
Bella, just two years younger, wears baggy shorts and a soccer jersey, and pitches her voice lower in this "yeah, whatever" way when she speaks.
贝拉只比她小两岁，穿着宽松的短裤和足球衫，说话时声音压得很低，就像“是的，无论如何”。
Here's Bella.
这是贝拉。
I just like to sit in my room and exist.
我只是喜欢坐在我的房间里存在。
Honestly, I'm sitting on the couch watching TV.
老实说，我坐在沙发上看电视。
And then she comes and blocks my view, and is like, is this outfit good?
然后她走过来挡住了我的视线，问我这身衣服好看吗？
Do these shoes match this outfit?
这双鞋适合这套衣服吗？
Does my hair look good?
我的头发好看吗？
Bella Rivera Yeah.
贝拉·里维拉 是的。
But I'll be honest with her.
但我会对她诚实。
I'll tell her if her hair looks frizzy or something, but.
我会告诉她如果她的头发看起来卷曲什么的，但是。
Yeah.
是的。
Valerie Kipnis On cue, Bella points to her big sister's neck where her necklace has gotten tangled.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis) 根据提示，贝拉指着她姐姐的脖子，她的项链缠在了一起。
Your necklace is like-- McKenzie Rivera OK, thank you queen.
你的项链就像——McKenzie Rivera 好的，谢谢女王。
[LAUGHTER] Valerie Kipnis Upstairs are the girls' bedrooms and a little hangout area.
[笑声] Valerie Kipnis 楼上是女孩们的卧室和一个小聚会区。
Downstairs is the site of their parents disagreement about whether their dad and the family should leave the country, what the girls have been calling "the situation."
楼下是她们父母就父亲和家人是否应该离开这个国家产生分歧的地方，女孩们称之为“情况”。
Could you tell me about some of the moments that it has come up?
您能告诉我一些它出现的时刻吗？
Like about the situation?
喜欢了解情况吗？
I think that most recently, it's just been like every day.
我认为最近，就像每天一样。
It's mostly because--
主要是因为——
[SINGING IN THE BACKGROUND] Bella Rivera is she singing?
[背景唱歌] 贝拉·里维拉 (Bella Rivera) 在唱歌吗？
She's singing.
她在唱歌。
Yeah, she's singing.
是的，她在唱歌。
Valerie Kipnis The person singing in the background is their mom, Jenni.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis) 在后台唱歌的人是他们的妈妈珍妮 (Jenni)。
She's in the room next door, wearing noise canceling headphones, singing the 2015 hit single "Fight Song."
她在隔壁房间里戴着降噪耳机，唱着 2015 年的热门单曲《Fight Song》。
[LAUGHTER] McKenzie Rivera Well, she does that a lot, actually.
[笑声] McKenzie Rivera 嗯，实际上她经常这样做。
Every once in a while, I'd be sitting upstairs, and then I hear her voice coming through the floor, and I was like, what is happening?
每隔一段时间，我就会坐在楼上，然后听到她的声音从地板上传来，我就想，发生了什么事？
I thought it was a ghost in my room.
我以为我房间里有鬼。
Cause my grandma told her it's a good way to distract your mind.
因为我奶奶告诉她这是分散注意力的好方法。
Yeah.
是的。
McKenzie Rivera So she does that by singing.
麦肯齐·里维拉（McKenzie Rivera）所以她通过唱歌来做到这一点。
Jenni's been singing a lot this past year, ever since Donald Trump won the election, because she's stressed about Fidel.
自从唐纳德·特朗普赢得大选以来，珍妮去年一直在唱歌，因为她对菲德尔感到压力。
She just wanted him to make a plan.
她只是想让他制定一个计划。
Either he should move to Mexico, or they should move together as a family.
要么他应该搬到墨西哥，要么他们应该作为一个家庭一起搬家。
The one thing they couldn't do, from her perspective, was to keep doing what they had been for the last 16 years, living under the radar.
在她看来，他们不能做的一件事就是继续做过去 16 年以来的事情，生活在雷达之下。
That wasn't working for me anymore.
那对我不再有用了。
Just doing what we're doing wasn't working.
仅仅做我们正在做的事情是行不通的。
I needed to have a plan in place in case something happened.
我需要制定一个计划，以防万一发生什么事情。
Jenni is a rule follower.
珍妮是一个遵守规则的人。
For 16 years, she worried when Fidel drove to work without a license, that he'd get into an accident and their insurance wouldn't cover it, or he'd get stopped by police and end up in detention.
16 年来，她一直担心菲德尔无证开车上班时会发生事故而他们的保险不承保，或者会被警察拦下并最终被拘留。
The only way Jenni had been able to sleep at night was because a lawyer had told them that if Fidel got picked up in that situation, it wasn't hopeless.
珍妮晚上能够入睡的唯一方法是因为一位律师告诉他们，如果菲德尔在那种情况下被抓起来，也不是没有希望。
They could go in front of a judge and argue for Fidel.
他们可以在法官面前为菲德尔辩护。
He's got a great job, no criminal record.
他有一份很好的工作，没有犯罪记录。
Dad of two, married to a US citizen.
两个孩子的父亲，与美国公民结婚。
Maybe they could make their case for him to stay.
也许他们可以为他留下留下来。
We had a-- one card to play.
我们有一张牌要打。
That's what I call it.
我就是这么称呼它的。
It was just like we had one-- we had one ace in the hole that we could play.
就像我们有一张可以打的 A 洞一样。
In Trump's second term, that option would probably go away.
在特朗普的第二个任期内，这种选择可能会消失。
And if Fidel got picked up, he'd probably be detained and deported.
如果菲德尔被抓起来，他可能会被拘留并驱逐出境。
Jenni couldn't see a path forward.
珍妮看不到前进的道路。
Fidel, however, saw it differently.
然而菲德尔却有不同的看法。
Trump hadn't even taken office yet.
特朗普当时还没有上任。
He thought she was overreacting.
他认为她反应过度了。
It's like, are you crazy?
就像，你疯了吗？
I'm not going to go nowhere.
我哪儿也不去。
It's even like I told her, it's like I've been here for 30 years, and nothing happened.
甚至就像我告诉她的，就好像我在这里已经三十年了，什么也没发生。
It's like I've never been to jail.
就好像我从来没有进过监狱一样。
I never been in a bad accident.
我从未遭遇过严重事故。
I just go to work and coming back.
我只是去上班然后回来。
What you need to worry about too much?
你还需要担心什么吗？
Always thinking like I'm going to prove you wrong, it's not going to happen.
总是想着我要证明你是错的，但这不会发生。
When I first started talking to Fidel and Jenni over the phone, this is where they were, at an impasse.
当我第一次开始通过电话与菲德尔和珍妮交谈时，他们就陷入了僵局。
Right now, she's the one like, what are we going to do, what are we going to do?
现在，她就像是，我们要做什么，我们要做什么？
I think some part of my brain is like a lack of something.
我觉得我大脑的某些部分就像缺少了一些东西。
Because you feel like there's time pressure?
因为你觉得有时间压力？
Yeah.
是的。
The time and the-- I don't want to--
时间和——我不想——
And my wife's driving me nuts.
我的妻子快把我逼疯了。
My wife is--
我的妻子是——
[LAUGHTER] Jenni Rivera Getting mad, because he's sticking his head in the sand.
[笑声] Jenni Rivera 很生气，因为他把头埋在沙子里。
Sticking my head in the sand.
把我的头埋进沙子里。
But like I said, I try to not think in that way.
但就像我说的，我尽量不以这种方式思考。
But like I said, we are-- we are totally different persons.
但就像我说的，我们是完全不同的人。
These are the conversations the girls were overhearing.
这些是女孩们无意中听到的对话。
Fidel and Jenni have been married 17 years.
菲德尔和珍妮结婚已有 17 年。
Happily.
令人高兴的是。
They met salsa dancing.
他们遇见了跳萨尔萨舞的人。
He stepped on her foot.
他踩到了她的脚。
She said, you owe me an ice cream.
她说，你欠我一个冰淇淋。
They spent the night talking at Denny's.
他们在丹尼家聊了一夜。
These days, they still salsa dance in the living room, and corner off weekend mornings just for talking.
如今，他们仍然在客厅里跳萨尔萨舞，并利用周末早上的时间闲聊。
When I asked Fidel to describe who's who in the relationship, this is how he frames the answer.
当我让菲德尔描述一下这段关系中的谁时，他是这样回答的。
I always tell her it's is the positive and the negative.
我总是告诉她这是积极的和消极的。
It's the positive and the negative.
这是积极的和消极的。
Because you're an electrician, it's funny that you're saying positive and negative, because that's--
因为你是一名电工，所以你说积极和消极很有趣，因为那是——
Yeah.
是的。
It's like how the battery works, how the car works.
这就像电池如何工作，汽车如何工作。
Because I always think positive.
因为我总是积极思考。
But she always looks at reality.
但她总是着眼于现实。
She's the one saving money.
她才是省钱的人。
She's the one making sure everything in the house works.
她是确保房子里一切正常运转的人。
All the paperwork is right, make sure the girls got the ride to school.
所有文件都正确无误，确保女孩们能搭车去学校。
Jenni posts to-do lists around the house.
珍妮在家里张贴待办事项清单。
He executes, crossing each item off as he goes along.
他一边执行一边划掉每一项。
That's how they both like it.
这就是他们俩都喜欢的方式。
He is the fun dad.
他是个有趣的爸爸。
He does all the fun things.
他做所有有趣的事情。
He takes the kids out for ice cream, and he spoils them.
他带孩子们出去吃冰淇淋，他把他们宠坏了。
And if it's the disciplinarian, that's me.
如果是纪律严明的人，那就是我。
[LAUGHTER] He is not the disciplinarian at all.
[笑声]他根本就不是一个纪律严明的人。
Fidel's style is more to try and tease the girls into listening to him.
菲德尔的风格更多的是试图引诱女孩们听他的话。
For instance, McKenzie likes to wear short shorts.
例如，麦肯齐喜欢穿短裤。
So one day Fidel said, hey, if you're going out like that, I'll do it too.
所以有一天，菲德尔说，嘿，如果你像那样出去，我也会这样做。
He grabbed scissors, and cut off the bottom of his T-shirt, and made it into a crop top.
他抓起剪刀，把T恤的下摆剪掉，做成了露脐上衣。
Then, he reached for his shorts.
然后，他伸手去抓自己的短裤。
I cut them, and I stuck it up all the way up, like I stuck it up all the way up.
我把它们剪下来，然后把它一直粘起来，就像我把它一直粘起来一样。
Like hey, you're gonna to go to the street like that?
嘿，你要就这样去街上吗？
Hey, let me go too.
嘿嘿，让我也去吧。
We can go together.
我们可以一起去。
She said, I'm not going to go with you like that.
她说，我不会就这样跟你走。
Isabella is always, you're annoying me.
伊莎贝拉总是，你让我很烦。
Even Jennifer said, stop being annoying.
连詹妮弗都说，别再烦人了。
And even McKenzie says, stop annoying.
甚至麦肯齐也说，别再烦人了。
It's love.
这是爱。
I don't know if it's annoying to them, but it's love.
我不知道这是否会让他们烦恼，但这就是爱。
In January, on the first day of President Trump's second term, he declared a border emergency, moved to end birthright citizenship, and suspended refugee admissions.
一月份，特朗普总统第二任期的第一天，他宣布边境进入紧急状态，采取行动终止与生俱来的公民身份，并暂停接纳难民。
Within weeks, the TV was full of ads, Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem telling immigrants--
几周之内，电视上就充斥着广告，国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺姆告诉移民——
Leave now.
现在离开。
If you don't, we will find you, and we will deport you.
如果你不这样做，我们就会找到你，然后将你驱逐出境。
You will never return.
你永远不会回来。
Jenni had tried to find out everything about the Trump administration's plans.
珍妮曾试图找出有关特朗普政府计划的一切。
She'd read about Project 2025, and worried that if Fidel got picked up, he'd get stuck in a detention center, and it would ruin their lives.
她读过有关“2025 计划”的内容，担心如果菲德尔被抓起来，他会被困在拘留中心，这会毁掉他们的生活。
She'd heard horror stories, people being treated cruelly, getting abused.
她听过恐怖故事，人们受到残酷对待，受到虐待。
She couldn't stop picturing Fidel in there, in a cell with nowhere to sleep, no way to call.
她无法停止想象菲德尔在那里的情景，在一间牢房里，无处可睡，也无法打电话。
What if he came out a completely different person than he went in?
如果他出来时和进来时完全是另外一个人怎么办？
She didn't want that for her sweet goofball of a husband.
她不想让她可爱的傻瓜丈夫变成这样。
And would they have to spend their life savings to get him out?
他们是否需要花掉毕生积蓄才把他救出来？
One couple they were friends with, the husband had gotten picked up.
他们是一对夫妇的朋友，丈夫被接走了。
They are over $50,000 in debt to attorneys.
他们欠律师的债务超过 50,000 美元。
So you have destroyed, absolutely destroyed, this couple's life.
所以你毁了，彻底毁了这对夫妇的生活。
But Fidel told her he was willing to take the risk.
但菲德尔告诉她，他愿意冒这个险。
He wanted to stay.
他想留下来。
And I said, so what do you want to do if you get picked up?
我说，那如果你被抓起来你想做什么？
Tell me what that looks like.
告诉我那是什么样子的。
So if we're just going to take our chances and we're going to stay, what happens if you get picked up?
因此，如果我们只是想抓住机会并留下来，那么如果你被接走会发生什么？
During that conversation, he said, I don't want you to spend any money to get me out, if he were to get picked up for anything.
在那次谈话中，他说，如果他因为任何事情被抓，我不想让你花任何钱让我出去。
And I told him that he needed to tell his children that.
我告诉他，他需要告诉他的孩子们这一点。
Because if something were to happen, they would never forgive me.
因为如果发生什么事情，他们永远不会原谅我。
They would never forgive me for leaving him in there.
他们永远不会原谅我把他留在那里。
Even if it was a decision that he and I made together, they would never forgive me.
即使这是我和他共同做出的决定，他们也永远不会原谅我。
Because I'm the fixer for all these kind of things.
因为我是所有这些事情的解决者。
Fidel felt that unless ICE was here-here, like in their small suburban town an hour outside of Raleigh, North Carolina, there really wasn't much to worry about.
菲德尔觉得，除非 ICE 在这里——这里，就像在北卡罗来纳州罗利市一小时车程外的郊区小镇上，否则真的没什么好担心的。
He figured the odds were with him.
他认为自己胜算很大。
When they were having these conversations last winter, ICE had arrested less than half of 1% of the 14 million undocumented people in the country.
去年冬天，当他们进行这些对话时，ICE 逮捕了该国 1400 万无证人员中不到 1% 的一半。
Besides, Trump was still saying that he was going after criminals, and Fidel didn't see himself as a criminal.
此外，特朗普还在说他是在追捕罪犯，而菲德尔并不认为自己是罪犯。
He was a tax-paying dad, a successful electrician helping build public schools in the area.
他是一位纳税的父亲，一位成功的电工，帮助在该地区建造公立学校。
If Fidel got detained and deported, it'd be disastrous, but it was just so unlikely.
如果菲德尔被拘留并驱逐出境，那将是灾难性的，但这种可能性很小。
Jenni wasn't going to wait around for Fidel to agree with her to make a plan.
珍妮不会等待菲德尔同意她来制定计划。
She started prepping on her own, holed herself away in her home office, and got to work putting together these massive purple binders of pay stubs, receipts, paperwork.
她开始自己做准备，躲在家庭办公室里，开始整理这些巨大的紫色活页夹，里面装着工资单、收据和文书工作。
His birth certificate, a copy of all of his passports and identification, copies of our tax returns.
他的出生证明、所有护照和身份证明的副本、我们的纳税申报表的副本。
Hundreds of documents, in the case of his arrest or detainment, that she could use to prove that Fidel had been here, working, not committing crimes, for the past 30 years.
在菲德尔被捕或被拘留的情况下，她可以使用数百份文件来证明菲德尔过去 30 年来一直在这里工作，而不是犯罪。
She labeled the binders "in case of emergency." Fidel found it all a little bit--
她在活页夹上贴了“紧急情况下”的标签。菲德尔稍微发现了这一切——
Annoying.
烦人。
Like annoying, like she wanted me to go, like she wanted me to go.
就像很烦人，就像她想让我走，就像她想让我走一样。
Did it hurt your feelings, this idea that she might want you to go?
她可能希望你离开，这是否伤害了你的感情？
I guess, yes.
我想是的。
Just like, why do you want me to go?
就像，你为什么要我走？
It's like, my life is in here.
就好像，我的生命就在这里。
That is-- it hurts.
那就是——很痛。
Did you ever tell her that it hurt your feelings?
你有没有告诉过她这伤害了你的感情？
No, I think it's like a-- like a proud, how you say?
不，我认为这就像一个——就像一个骄傲，你怎么说？
Proud?
自豪的？
Proud thing.
值得骄傲的事。
I'm not going to tell you what hurts.
我不会告诉你什么痛。
McKenzie and Bella could understand both parents arguments over whether he should go.
麦肯齐和贝拉可以理解父母双方关于他是否应该去的争论。
But it was easier to side with their dad.
但站在他们的父亲一边更容易。
He was saying there was nothing to worry about, everything was fine, and things could stay the same.
他说没有什么可担心的，一切都很好，一切都可以保持不变。
Me and Bella both swayed to the side of keeping my dad in the United States.
我和贝拉都倾向于让我父亲留在美国。
We kind of just didn't want him to go, so we kind of just-- I don't know if we avoided it, more like we just didn't really think about it, I guess.
我们只是不想让他走，所以我们只是——我不知道我们是否避免了它，我猜更像我们只是没有真正考虑过它。
It'd be a shadow, and I definitely feel like it would come out, though, when we were at home, and if we weren't doing anything.
这将是一个阴影，但我绝对觉得，当我们在家时，如果我们什么都不做，它就会出现。
If we were being a family, it would be like, oh, this might come to an end.
如果我们是一个家庭，那就会是，哦，这可能会结束。
They'd been sitting with some version of this dread for over five years.
他们已经忍受了这种恐惧的某种形式五年多了。
They first learned that their dad might have to move to Mexico back in 2020, when Donald Trump was running for a second term.
他们第一次得知他们的父亲可能不得不搬到墨西哥是在 2020 年，当时唐纳德·特朗普正在竞选第二个任期。
They were in fifth and seventh grade, and their mom, Jenni, was scared of what Trump would do with immigration in a second term and felt like she had to prepare the girls, who at that time had no idea at all that their dad was undocumented, or that he might have to leave.
她们分别上五年级和七年级，她们的妈妈珍妮 (Jenni) 担心特朗普在第二个任期内会对移民问题采取什么措施，并觉得她必须让女孩们做好准备，因为她们当时根本不知道她们的父亲没有证件，也不知道他可能不得不离开。
Of course, this was life-altering news.
当然，这是改变生活的消息。
I was crying, I know that.
我哭了，我知道。
Valerie Kipnis Were you crying too?
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 你也哭了吗？
Yeah, definitely.
是的，绝对是。
Bella Rivera I distinctly remember trying to hide the fact that I was crying by putting my hand right here, and then I would lay down on the desk, and my arm like that.
贝拉·里维拉（Bella Rivera） 我清楚地记得我试图把手放在这里来掩盖我哭泣的事实，然后我会躺在桌子上，我的手臂就像这样。
Like, I did not want to be crying.
就像，我不想哭。
So yeah, the thing is, I don't like the feeling of it on my face, really.
所以是的，问题是，我真的不喜欢它在我脸上的感觉。
So when I try to cry, I try to get it before it gets like down to here area.
所以当我想哭的时候，我会尽量在它落到这里之前哭出来。
So--
所以——
Their parents asked them not to tell anyone, which made this big news feel even heavier.
父母要求他们不要告诉任何人，这让这个大消息更加沉重。
Suddenly they felt different from the other kids at school.
突然间，他们感觉自己与学校里的其他孩子有所不同。
Things started to also just make more sense.
事情也开始变得更有意义了。
Because also people describe, when you're married, the man's supposed to drive.
因为人们还描述，当你结婚时，男人应该开车。
And then I'm like, oh, but my dad doesn't drive.
然后我就想，哦，但我爸爸不开车。
And then I was like, oh, that's probably why.
然后我想，哦，这可能就是原因。
Because he doesn't have a license.
因为他没有驾照。
Fidel does drive.
菲德尔确实开车。
But when the family's together, Jenni's the one who drives.
但当一家人在一起时，开车的是珍妮。
I started understanding why we didn't travel as much.
我开始理解为什么我们不那么频繁地旅行。
I heard my friends all the time saying they traveled to Canada, or Europe, or whatever.
我一直听到我的朋友说他们去了加拿大、欧洲或其他地方。
I don't know what a five-year-old is doing in Europe, but whatever.
我不知道一个五岁的孩子在欧洲做什么，但无论如何。
But it was like I could hear them traveling, and I was like, why don't we ever travel?
但我好像能听到他们旅行的声音，我就想，为什么我们不去旅行呢？
And so I kind of started understanding why.
所以我开始理解为什么。
With this new understanding came fear.
随着这种新的认识而来的是恐惧。
McKenzie started having nightmares about ICE.
麦肯齐开始做关于 ICE 的噩梦。
They come and break into the house, almost like a movie.
他们闯入房子，就像电影一样。
And then we know that they're coming, but we're all hiding in the house behind the TV.
然后我们知道他们来了，但我们都躲在房子里的电视机后面。
And then they find my dad, and I'm standing, hiding away.
然后他们找到了我爸爸，我站着躲了起来。
But I still see him, and they're just taking him away.
但我仍然看到他，他们只是把他带走了。
That was in seventh grade.
那是七年级的时候。
She's older now, but the nightmares returned when Trump took office again and she started overhearing her parents arguing.
她现在年纪大了，但当特朗普再次上台时，噩梦又回来了，她开始无意中听到父母争吵。
The situation was back.
情况又回来了。
Do you guys ever talk about it amongst yourselves?
你们之间有谈论过这件事吗？
I actually don't think we've talked about it.
事实上我认为我们还没有讨论过这个问题。
Yeah, no, we don't really talk about it.
是的，不，我们并没有真正谈论它。
I think that we both do the same thing, where--
我认为我们都做同样的事情，其中——
I don't think we've ever brought it up willingly just to talk.
我不认为我们只是为了谈话而自愿提出这个问题。
Because it's just like, we're going to sit there and be sad.
因为这就像，我们会坐在那里悲伤。
Instead, they dealt with the tension in the house by distracting themselves.
相反，他们通过分散自己的注意力来缓解家里的紧张气氛。
I think-- there was at one point, McKenzie had a running phase, where she ran every night.
我认为，麦肯齐曾经有过一个跑步阶段，她每天晚上都跑步。
Oh, yeah, I ran every night, during the winter time.
哦，是的，冬天的时候我每天晚上都跑步。
Because Trump had just won, and then all these things were just running in my head.
因为特朗普刚刚获胜，然后所有这些事情就在我的脑海中浮现。
And she doesn't like running in the light, because she doesn't like people looking at her while she runs.
而且她不喜欢在光亮下跑步，因为她不喜欢别人在她跑步时看着她。
Exactly.
确切地。
Bella Rivera So when it'd get dark, she would run, and I would ride my bike next to her.
贝拉·里维拉（Bella Rivera）：所以当天黑时，她会跑步，我会在她旁边骑自行车。
Because I cannot run for anything, like it's so bad.
因为我不能为任何事情而奔跑，就像它太糟糕了一样。
But yeah.
但是是的。
Would you guys talk too?
你们也来聊聊吗？
McKenzie Rivera I think when I would be walking, we would talk, but it would be about school drama.
麦肯齐·里维拉（McKenzie Rivera） 我想当我走路的时候，我们会说话，但都是关于校园戏剧的。
They'd run and bike for as long as they could, until it was too late to be out, and only then would they go home, traipse past their parents watching the evening news, and go upstairs.
他们会尽可能长时间地跑步和骑自行车，直到为时已晚，才回家，走过正在看晚间新闻的父母，然后上楼。
It's not like I don't care about what's going on.
我并不是不关心正在发生的事情。
It's more like it's just sad.
这更像是悲伤。
And it's like, well, if you're going to be sad forever, or you're going to block it out, and just move on or something.
就像，好吧，如果你要永远悲伤，或者你要阻止它，然后继续前进或者其他什么。
But the Trump administration did not want anyone to block out what they were doing.
但特朗普政府不希望任何人阻止他们正在做的事情。
They wanted their immigration policies splashed across headlines and social media.
他们希望自己的移民政策登上头条新闻和社交媒体。
They wanted them embedded in the nation's psyche, especially in families like this one.
他们希望它们融入国家的心灵，尤其是像这样的家庭。
In March, the headlines were, Kilmar Abrego Garcia was mistakenly deported from Maryland to the notorious CECOT prison in El Salvador, along with 260 other people.
3 月份的头条新闻是，Kilmar Abrego Garcia 与其他 260 人一起被错误地从马里兰州驱逐到臭名昭著的萨尔瓦多 CECOT 监狱。
The Trump administration added a self-deport button to the Customs and Border Protection app.
特朗普政府在海关和边境保护局应用程序中添加了自我驱逐按钮。
Meanwhile, McKenzie was working weekends at Jersey Mike's.
与此同时，麦肯齐在泽西迈克周末工作。
Bella was on the wrestling team.
贝拉是摔跤队的成员。
She and Fidel practiced grappling in the living room.
她和菲德尔在客厅练习格斗。
He drove the girls to soccer games most weekends, cheering them on from the sidelines.
大多数周末他都会开车送女孩们去看足球比赛，并在场边为她们加油。
Jenni taped little cards all over the front door on red construction paper, what to do if ICE comes knocking.
珍妮用红色卡纸在前门贴满了小卡片，说明如果 ICE 来敲门该怎么办。
Bella's 15th birthday was coming up, her quinceañera year, a big deal.
贝拉 15 岁生日即将到来，这是她的成人礼年，这是一件大事。
Fidel and Jenni kept asking her about plans and ideas for the party, but she just kept pushing it off.
菲德尔和珍妮一直向她询问聚会的计划和想法，但她只是一味地推迟。
At one point her parents even asked her, do you want a quince, or a car instead?
有一次，她的父母甚至问她，你想要一个木瓜，还是一辆车？
Quince, she said.
昆斯，她说。
I wanted one.
我想要一个。
But then I was like-- I was thinking about it, and I was like, what if he's not actually there for it?
但后来我想——我在想这件事，我想，如果他实际上不在场怎么办？
The dad is a big part of a quince.
爸爸是木瓜的一个重要部分。
So I was like, what if he's not even there to celebrate it with me?
所以我想，如果他根本不在那里和我一起庆祝怎么办？
Do I really want that?
我真的想要那样吗？
And I was like, I don't want a quince without him.
我当时想，如果没有他，我不想吃木瓜。
So I didn't want to go through all the trouble of planning it, and then him not being there.
所以我不想经历所有的麻烦来计划它，然后他却不在那里。
So I was like, oh, I don't want to do this anymore.
所以我想，哦，我不想再这样做了。
So--
所以——
She called it off.
她取消了。
Fidel Rivera I was not happy with that.
菲德尔·里维拉我对此并不满意。
It's like, I just want to do the party.
就像，我只是想参加聚会。
I just want to see Isabella happy.
我只想看到伊莎贝拉幸福。
But it is what it is.
但事实就是如此。
We need to plan it and everything, and have that stress.
我们需要计划好一切，并承受压力。
And for some reason it would happen and oh, your dad is not going to be there in the party.
由于某种原因，这种情况会发生，哦，你爸爸不会参加聚会。
I think that would be a pretty bad thing to happen.
我认为这将是一件非常糟糕的事情。
Valerie Kipnis.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯.
Coming up, the pressure on the family increases, and the kids overhear something they haven't heard before.
接下来，家庭的压力越来越大，孩子们无意中听到了一些他们以前从未听过的事情。
That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
Today's program, Under One Roof, stories of families going through experiences, where different family members see things very differently from each other.
今天的节目《同一屋檐下》讲述了家庭经历的故事，不同的家庭成员对事物的看法截然不同。
We're in the middle of Valerie Kipnis's story about the Rivera family trying to figure out if they should self-deport.
我们正在阅读瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis) 讲述的里维拉一家试图弄清楚他们是否应该自我驱逐的故事。
We pick up in the spring.
我们在春天采摘。
The stalemate between Jenni and Fidel was getting worse.
珍妮和菲德尔之间的僵局越来越严重。
Every day, Jenni went online, trying to think through a possible move.
珍妮每天都会上网，试图思考一个可能的举动。
She scrolled through houses in Mexico, tried to find towns they could afford with expat communities.
她浏览了墨西哥的房屋，试图找到他们可以负担得起且拥有外籍社区的城镇。
She looked up English language schools for the girls, who don't speak Spanish.
她为不会说西班牙语的女孩查找了英语语言学校。
She showed all this to Fidel, and he went along with it, begrudgingly.
她向菲德尔展示了这一切，他不情愿地同意了。
He didn't think it was necessary.
他认为没有必要。
And all these months of pressure, of arguing, culminated in this one fight, when Jenni and Fidel found themselves standing across from each other in the living room, yelling.
这几个月的压力和争吵在这场争吵中达到了顶峰，珍妮和菲德尔发现自己在客厅里面对面站着，大喊大叫。
No one can remember what started the fight.
没有人记得是什么引发了这场战斗。
What they do remember is the yelling.
他们所记得的就是大喊大叫。
I think the kids are upstairs, and they hear that stuff.
我想孩子们在楼上，他们听到了那些东西。
How do you know?
你怎么知道？
Fidel Rivera I'm pretty sure they hear.
菲德尔·里维拉 我很确定他们听到了。
We yelling pretty loud stuff.
我们大声喊叫。
We're yelling pretty loud each other.
我们互相喊得很大声。
It's like-- I'm thinking, in the top of my head, it's like, are you crazy?
就像——我在想，在我的头顶上，就像，你疯了吗？
It's not going to happen.
这不会发生。
We yell at each other.
我们互相大喊大叫。
Was that unusual for you?
这对你来说不寻常吗？
Fidel Rivera Yes, that is unusual.
菲德尔·里维拉 是的，这很不寻常。
Because, like I said, 17 years, we never yell on each other, right?
因为，就像我说的，17年来，我们从来没有互相吼过，对吧？
That is when my head start thinking, she's over stressed.
就在那时我开始思考，她压力太大了。
And it's like this is when-- now is when my head start to kick in, it's like, I need to do something, I need to-- I need to start thinking.
就像现在——现在是我的头脑开始思考的时候，就像，我需要做点什么，我需要——我需要开始思考。
The truth was, Fidel's resolve was starting to unravel.
事实是，菲德尔的决心开始瓦解。
He had always believed that until job sites near him got raided, he was OK.
他一直相信，在他附近的工地遭到突击搜查之前，他是没事的。
There was nothing to worry about.
没什么好担心的。
But by the spring, ICE arrests in North Carolina had more than doubled since the same time last year.
但到今年春天，ICE 在北卡罗来纳州逮捕的人数比去年同期增加了一倍多。
He started counting heads at work.
他开始在工作中数人头。
Was anyone missing?
有人失踪吗？
He started getting nervous whenever he was driving, or when he saw a cop.
每当他开车或看到警察时，他就会开始紧张。
In May, the Trump administration created Project Homecoming, offering people $1,000 and a free plane ticket to leave the country.
5 月，特朗普政府创建了“返乡计划”，向人们提供 1000 美元和一张免费出境机票。
They regularly posted triumphant videos on social media of agents with gaiters and guns blasting doors, raiding people's homes and workplaces, of people in shackles being led onto planes, often to the tune of trolling music.
他们经常在社交媒体上发布胜利的视频，内容是特工带着绑腿和枪爆破门，袭击人们的住宅和工作场所，戴着脚镣的人被带上飞机，通常伴随着恶搞音乐的曲调。
[POLICE CHATTER] Officer Come to the front door.
[警察闲聊] 警官到前门来。
Fidel watched those videos and others that were going viral, and they had the effect on him that the Trump administration probably wanted.
菲德尔观看了那些病毒式传播的视频和其他视频，它们对他产生了特朗普政府可能想要的效果。
They scared him.
他们吓坏了他。
I think I saw it on the TV, when the kids separated with the parents, that videos, where they grabbed the mom, and separate the mom, and the kids stay crying all day, the mom never coming back, and the kids thinking, what am I going to do?
我想我在电视上看到过，当孩子们与父母分开时，那些视频，他们抓住妈妈，把妈妈分开，孩子们整天哭，妈妈再也没有回来，孩子们在想，我该怎么办？
It's like, I don't want that feeling for my kids.
就像，我不想让我的孩子有这种感觉。
I don't want to give them that feeling.
我不想给他们这种感觉。
One day, McKenzie saw reports on social media that ICE was in their area.
有一天，麦肯齐在社交媒体上看到报道称 ICE 就在他们的地区。
She texted her parents.
她给父母发短信。
Fidel texted her back a goofy face emoji and, "don't worry about it." But it bothered him that she was thinking about this stuff.
菲德尔给她回了一个傻脸表情符号，“别担心。”但令他烦恼的是，她竟然在想这些事情。
I called him in June to check in.
我六月份打电话给他询问情况。
His friend's brother, who worked nearby, his job site had just been raided.
他朋友的兄弟在附近工作，他的工作地点刚刚遭到突击搜查。
And Fidel was preoccupied with two bills in front of the North Carolina legislature that would force state agencies like Highway Patrol to cooperate with ICE.
菲德尔正全神贯注于北卡罗来纳州立法机关面前的两项法案，这两项法案将迫使高速公路巡逻队等州机构与 ICE 合作。
Almost all last year, when Jennifer tell me, it's like, hey, when we start to make a plan, it's like, oh, I don't think it's nothing going to happen.
几乎去年全年，当詹妮弗告诉我时，就像，嘿，当我们开始制定计划时，就像，哦，我不认为什么都不会发生。
But now, it's-- especially with these two bills.
但现在，尤其是这两项法案。
It's like, oh, I think it's-- I think my wife is right.
就像，哦，我认为——我认为我妻子是对的。
[LAUGHTER] Valerie Kipnis Wow, Fidel, last time that you and I spoke, you were kind of like, I don't know, she's a bit dramatic, I don't know if I need to do this.
[笑声] Valerie Kipnis 哇，Fidel，上次你和我说话时，你有点像，我不知道，她有点戏剧化，我不知道我是否需要这样做。
Yes, it's-- every day I was like a little bit processing.
是的，每天我都在进行一点处理。
It's like I need to start thinking and I need to change my switch.
就好像我需要开始思考，我需要改变我的开关。
The last straw for Fidel was Alligator Alcatraz.
压垮菲德尔的最后一根稻草是鳄鱼恶魔岛。
I'm not-- I'm not going to be in one of that places.
我不会——我不会去那些地方之一。
That is my switch.
那是我的开关。
When Jennifer told me five months ago, hey, they're going to build detention centers.
当詹妮弗五个月前告诉我时，嘿，他们要建造拘留中心。
And even I told her, it's like, are you crazy?
甚至我告诉她，就像，你疯了吗？
They're not going to build.
他们不会建造。
And three months later, it's like, we got the first one.
三个月后，我们就得到了第一个。
And I'm pretty sure maybe it's going to be more.
我很确定也许会更多。
After all those months, all those conversations, Fidel finally agreed that he needed to leave, maybe with the family, but probably alone.
经过这几个月的谈话，菲德尔终于同意他需要离开，也许是和家人一起离开，但也可能是独自一人。
So in June, he sat Jenni down.
所以在六月，他让珍妮坐下来。
The Saturdays or Sundays, we sit on the couch in the mornings.
周六或周日，我们早上坐在沙发上。
And I-- I told her, it's like, OK, fine, I'm going, I gotta go.
我告诉她，就好像，好吧，好吧，我要走了，我得走了。
Yeah.
是的。
It's like, are you sure?
就像，你确定吗？
And I say, yes.
我说，是的。
Like, the face changes right away.
就这样，脸色立刻就变了。
Like she was relieved?
她好像松了口气？
Fidel Rivera Like a relief on her face, like, I think finally he understands.
菲德尔·里维拉（Fidel Rivera）脸上露出了轻松的表情，我想他终于明白了。
Like, finally.
就像，最后。
Yeah, but yeah.
是的，但是是的。
It's-- it's good, it's fine.
这——这很好，很好。
This is what Jenni had been asking for all along.
这就是Jenni一直以来的要求。
She's had such a hard time watching the Trump administration's war against immigrants escalate.
她很难看着特朗普政府针对移民的战争升级。
But I've already been living in that fear and panic for 16 years, and I can't take any more.
但我已经生活在这种恐惧和恐慌中16年了，我再也无法忍受了。
And maybe if I was a different person, I could wait it out.
也许如果我是另一个人，我可以等待。
But I'm not.
但我不是。
I am who I am.
我就是我。
Something I think a lot is, people who do support Trump, if they were to think about this, they would feel like this is the point, is for people to be scared, is for people to leave, to self-deport, right?
我经常想到的是，那些支持特朗普的人，如果他们考虑这一点，他们会觉得这就是重点，是让人们感到害怕，是让人们离开，自我驱逐，对吗？
And it feels like-- is there a part of you that feels like this is admitting, like raising the white flag, and being like, you won?
感觉就像——你内心是否有一部分感觉这是在承认，就像举起白旗，然后说，你赢了？
Or no?
或者没有？
Yeah.
是的。
Feels like you're giving up.
感觉就像你要放弃了。
It absolutely does.
确实如此。
But if you'd been living in the purgatory that we've been in for all of these years, and you weren't able to make any plans for your future, for your kids' future, for your life, at some point, everybody is going to raise that white flag.
但如果你这些年来一直生活在我们所处的炼狱中，而你无法为你的未来、你孩子的未来、你的生活制定任何计划，那么在某个时刻，每个人都会举起白旗。
And so I am.
我也是。
I just can't do it anymore.
我实在做不到了。
Meanwhile, Fidel has spent decades feeling like even though he entered the country illegally, he was here now, and he'd do things by the book, work hard at his job, pay into Social Security he'll never get back, support his kid's soccer team and Girl Scout troops, hoping that the people of America would see what he and so many other people were doing, that they were already contributing to this country, and embrace them, and make them full citizens.
与此同时，菲德尔几十年来一直感觉，尽管他非法进入这个国家，但他现在在这里，他会按规矩做事，努力工作，缴纳他永远无法收回的社会保障金，支持他孩子的足球队和女童子军，希望美国人民会看到他和其他许多人正在做的事情，他们已经为这个国家做出了贡献，并拥抱他们，让他们成为正式公民。
But now, he realized that deal was never going to come.
但现在，他意识到这笔交易永远不会达成。
In fact, a lot of people didn't even want him here.
事实上，很多人甚至不希望他来这里。
He couldn't stop thinking about how hard he'd worked to make it in this country, picking oranges and tobacco.
他不停地想自己在这个国家是多么努力地工作，采摘橙子和烟草。
He'd started as a sweeper at his electrical company, worked his way up for years.
他最初是在自己的电力公司担任清洁工，经过多年的努力，逐渐晋升。
I think that is one of the reasons I feel like I'm angry, is because you are at the top of your career.
我认为这是我感到生气的原因之一，因为你正处于职业生涯的巅峰。
Fidel's at the peak of his career, running projects and crews.
菲德尔正处于职业生涯的巅峰，负责管理项目和团队。
Like, I worked so hard.
就像，我工作得很努力。
I worked so hard.
I worked so hard.
Work, start from the bottom, and go all the way up.
工作，从底层做起，一路向上。
And now, I'm going to start again.
现在，我要重新开始。
But now, the difference is I'm 50 years old.
但现在，不同的是我已经50岁了。
I'm not 30 years old.
I'm not 30 years old.
My legs is not going to be the same.
我的腿不会一样。
And my hands is not going to be the same.
我的手也不会一样了。
Next, Fidel and Jenni told the girls their dad would leave after Christmas, and the girls didn't really take it seriously.
接下来，菲德尔和珍妮告诉女孩们，他们的父亲将在圣诞节后离开，但女孩们并没有真正认真对待。
They'd been talking about Fidel leaving for months.
几个月来他们一直在谈论菲德尔的离开。
This just felt like another update, so far away.
这感觉就像是另一次更新，距离很远。
For months, Jenni had been gaming out their Mexico options, and they weren't great.
几个月来，珍妮一直在考虑墨西哥的选择，但效果并不好。
There was the money.
There was the money.
She had just a few more years, five years before she could get her full pension.
她还有几年、五年的时间就能拿到全额养老金。
If she moved away now, they could live comfortably in Mexico, but probably never could come back to live in the US again.
如果她现在搬走，他们可以在墨西哥舒适地生活，但可能永远无法再回到美国生活。
They couldn't afford it.
他们买不起。
So she decided she probably wouldn't move.
所以她决定她可能不会动。
It wasn't worth it.
这是不值得的。
As for the girls, she couldn't find them a public school with a good English-speaking program.
至于女孩们，她找不到一所拥有良好英语课程的公立学校。
But she wanted this to be a family decision.
但她希望这是一个家庭决定。
So Jenni called the girls into the living room for a family meeting.
于是珍妮把女孩们叫到客厅去开家庭会议。
We were all sitting downstairs, over there on the couches.
我们都坐在楼下的沙发上。
I'm sitting in the middle, and my mom's over there on that couch by herself, and my dad's sitting next to me.
我坐在中间，我妈妈一个人坐在沙发上，我爸爸坐在我旁边。
Jenni held up her iPad.
Jenni held up her iPad.
On it was the listing for a house in Mexico.
上面是墨西哥一栋房子的清单。
She was like, check out this house I found, maybe we could all move down to Mexico together.
她说，看看我找到的这栋房子，也许我们可以一起搬到墨西哥。
Would you want to live there, go to school there?
你想住在那里，在那里上学吗？
McKenzie, the older sister, was the first to respond.
姐姐麦肯齐第一个做出了回应。
I think I said no to begin with.
我想我一开始就拒绝了。
I was like, I don't want that.
我当时想，我不想那样。
Didn't we have a whole thing, Bella?
我们不是已经拥有一整套的东西了吗，贝拉？
She was so adamant that she did not want to move.
她态度那么坚决，不想动。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
It was bad.
很糟糕。
I remember not wanting to leave the country at all.
我记得根本不想离开这个国家。
Because I mean, this is my only place that I've been-- born here, raised, North Carolina.
因为我的意思是，这是我唯一出生过的地方——在这里出生、长大，北卡罗来纳州。
Yeah.
是的。
McKenzie Rivera So it was like, you're going to make me leave, when I've dedicated my work and my school to North Carolina, and to the United States?
麦肯齐·里维拉：所以，当我把我的工作和学校奉献给北卡罗来纳州和美国时，你会让我离开吗？
That didn't make any sense.
那没有任何意义。
I said, I don't want to leave.
我说，我不想离开。
This makes-- I was like, it doesn't make any sense for me to want to go, because I'm-- this is my senior year.
这让——我想，我想去那里没有任何意义，因为我——这是我的高年级。
This is my last year at the school.
这是我在学校的最后一年。
You're not giving me enough time.
你没有给我足够的时间。
And then my mom got mad, and she responded at me, your dad is dealing with this.
然后我妈妈生气了，她对我说，你爸爸正在处理这件事。
It's causing me stress, it's causing the family stress.
这给我带来了压力，也给家庭带来了压力。
It's, like, intense around here because of what's going on.
由于正在发生的事情，这里的气氛非常紧张。
And then Bella didn't say anything.
然后贝拉什么也没说。
I don't think my dad really said anything.
我不认为我父亲真的说过什么。
I think me and my mom were just rapid firing against each other.
我想我和我妈妈只是在快速地互相争斗。
And then Bella kind of came and defended me, I guess.
我想，然后贝拉就过来保护我了。
She was like, I see why McKenzie doesn't want to go, and you need to just let her be for a little bit.
她说，我明白麦肯齐为什么不想去，你需要让她去一会儿。
And my mom was saying, oh, you need to come back here.
我妈妈说，哦，你需要回到这里。
We still need to talk.
我们还需要谈谈。
And then my dad probably said the same thing, and I was like, I don't really have anything to say.
然后我爸爸可能也说了同样的话，我当时想，我真的没什么可说的。
I don't want to go, and I don't want to hear about all your plans about moving.
我不想去，也不想听到你所有关于搬家的计划。
I said no to everything in general, like moving, thinking about moving, thinking about my dad leaving, thinking about the house, thinking about, I don't know, everything.
我对一般的一切都说不，比如搬家，考虑搬家，考虑我爸爸的离开，考虑房子，考虑，我不知道，一切。
I was saying, I don't want anything to happen.
我是说，我不想发生任何事情。
I just want it to stay how it is.
我只是想让它保持原样。
I mean, I was chill with whatever.
我的意思是，我对任何事情都很冷静。
Honestly, that's what I said.
老实说，我就是这么说的。
I was like, I don't really care what happens.
我当时想，我真的不在乎发生什么。
I do care, I do.
I do care, I do.
But you can literally take me out of the country.
但你确实可以带我出国。
I could care less where I go.
我不在乎我去哪里。
Like, I'll stay here, I'll leave.
就像，我会留在这里，我会离开。
I'll do online school.
I'll do online school.
I don't know, I'll just-- I didn't really care for it.
我不知道，我只是——我并不太关心它。
I do care.
我很关心。
Stop looking at me like that.
别再这样看着我了。
I'm not looking at her like anything.
我没有用任何眼神看着她。
She just sounds weird.
She just sounds weird.
I was going to do whatever my mom thought was best.
我会做我妈妈认为最好的事情。
Leaving or staying, that's what I was going to do.
离开还是留下，这就是我要做的。
And I get why McKenzie didn't want to leave either.
我明白为什么麦肯齐也不想离开。
I think my mom was really upset about the fact that she didn't want to leave, but I get why she didn't.
我认为我妈妈对她不想离开的事实感到非常沮丧，但我明白她为什么不想离开。
Because she is literally like one year away from 18.
因为她距离18岁还有一年的时间。
And you're not going to really make any new friends at a new school for senior year.
高年级你不会在新学校真正结识任何新朋友。
Jenni had always thought that this was where the girls would land.
Jenni一直以为这里就是女孩们的落脚点。
The girls felt like Jenni was asking a question she already had the answer to.
女孩们觉得珍妮在问一个她已经有了答案的问题。
Fidel sat there quietly during this whole conversation, not saying much at all.
整个谈话过程中，菲德尔静静地坐在那儿，没有多说什么。
Did you secretly wish that everyone said, OK, let's all go?
你是否暗自希望每个人都说，好吧，我们都走吧？
Or no?
或者没有？
Honestly, yeah, I'd say, yeah, everybody, let's go.
老实说，是的，我会说，是的，大家，我们走吧。
If McKenzie said, yeah, we can go.
如果麦肯齐说，是的，我们就可以走了。
And Bella said, yeah, we can go.
贝拉说，是的，我们可以走了。
And Jennifer said, yeah, we can go.
詹妮弗说，是的，我们可以走了。
It's like, then I had, sure, let's go.
就像，然后我当然，我们走吧。
But that's like a movie stuff.
但这就像电影里的东西。
In the real life, it's not gonna-- it's not gonna happen.
在现实生活中，这不会发生。
Fidel's sister went to see the house in Mexico.
菲德尔的姐姐去墨西哥看房子。
It's four bedrooms with a small pool, not far from the beach.
它有四间卧室，有一个小游泳池，离海滩不远。
She called him afterwards and told him it was really nice, a smart investment.
后来她打电话给他，告诉他这真的很好，是一项明智的投资。
When Fidel heard, his heart dropped.
菲德尔听了，心都沉了下去。
There was no backing out now.
现在已经没有退路了。
He'd have to be there to sign the documents in September, in three weeks.
他必须在九月份三周内到那里签署文件。
He was really leaving.
He was really leaving.
Jenni was out of town, and asked Fidel to be the one to tell the kids he'd be leaving in three weeks.
珍妮出城了，她请菲德尔告诉孩子们他将在三周后离开。
He was nervous to tell them, so he kind of sidestepped the whole conversation, just said, so you know I might be leaving, right?
他很紧张告诉他们，所以他回避了整个谈话，只是说，所以你知道我可能会离开，对吧？
They were like, yeah, that's what we've been talking about.
他们说，是的，这就是我们一直在谈论的。
And then he dropped it.
And then he dropped it.
A few days later, Jenni called the girls.
几天后，珍妮给女孩们打电话。
And then I'm sitting on the couch one day, and my sister's on a call with my mom, and then my mom says something about him leaving in September.
然后有一天，我坐在沙发上，我姐姐正在和我妈妈打电话，然后我妈妈说了一些关于他九月份离开的事情。
And then McKenzie tells me, he's leaving in, like, mid-September.
然后麦肯齐告诉我，他大约在九月中旬离开。
And I was like, what?
我当时想，什么？
And then she goes and checks her calendar on the phone, and she's like, that's next month.
然后她去查看手机上的日历，她说，那就是下个月了。
Yeah, I was like, what the heck, guys?
是的，我当时想，到底是什么，伙计们？
I didn't know this.
我不知道这个。
I visited the girls in August, weeks before his scheduled departure.
八月份，也就是他预定出发的前几周，我拜访了女孩们。
McKenzie and Bella were processing this sudden new reality in real time.
麦肯齐和贝拉正在实时处理这个突然出现的新现实。
I mean, in a year, I had time to get myself kind of ready for it.
我的意思是，在一年内，我有时间让自己做好准备。
I was-- like I could spend a little bit more time with my dad.
我觉得我可以多花一点时间和我爸爸在一起。
But he's leaving in a month, and there's not really much you can do in a month with your dad.
但他一个月后就要离开，一个月内你能和你爸爸一起做的事情并不多。
And that's literally how, probably, I'm going to think about it, when he's gone, I could have done more.
从字面上看，我可能会这样想，当他离开时，我本可以做得更多。
Yeah.
是的。
McKenzie Rivera It's like he's just going to disappear.
麦肯齐·里维拉：他就像要消失一样。
Like, he's going to be here one day, and then he's going to be gone.
就像，有一天他会在这里，然后他就会离开。
They were just starting to get their minds around it.
他们才刚刚开始思考这个问题。
For their whole lives, it had been the four of them.
他们的一生，都是他们四个人的。
Now Fidel would be gone.
Now Fidel would be gone.
What would graduation look like?
毕业会是什么样子？
What about wrestling on the weekends, and soccer, which was such a big part of their lives?
周末摔跤和足球怎么样，这是他们生活的重要组成部分？
Fidel was the soccer parent.
菲德尔是一位足球家长。
He'd go to every game.
He'd go to every game.
I realize he's not going to be there for another tournament.
我意识到他不会再参加另一场比赛了。
(WHIMPERING) So--
(WHIMPERING) So--
(WHIMPERING) Yeah.
(WHIMPERING) Yeah.
A whole soccer season, he's not going to be here.
整个足球赛季，他都不会在这里。
Well, he'll be here for the first part of it, barely.
好吧，他会在这里度过第一部分，勉强。
I hope he at least gets to come to one more game.
我希望他至少能再参加一场比赛。
Maybe.
或许。
I remember, it was the other day, and my mom was still gone, and she was gone.
我记得，那是前几天，我妈妈还没走，她就走了。
And then my dad was in some place, I don't know, he was outside or something.
然后我爸爸在某个地方，我不知道，他在外面什么的。
And I realized, she's going to college next year.
我意识到，她明年就要上大学了。
My mom's the only one that's going to be here, because my dad's going to be gone.
我妈妈是唯一会在这里的人，因为我爸爸就要走了。
So this is what my life is going to be like for three more years.
这就是我未来三年的生活。
Like, I'm not going to have anybody to just talk to.
就像，我不会找任何人聊天。
So yeah.
所以是的。
You guys are spreading telepathic messages to one another.
你们正在互相传播心灵感应信息。
What are they?
这些是什么？
No, I'm not spreading telepathic.
不，我不是在传播心灵感应。
I'm just sad, because I didn't even really think about that.
我只是很难过，因为我什至没有真正考虑过这一点。
OK, I guess I didn't think about how Bella was going to be here all by herself, without people.
好吧，我想我没有想到贝拉会独自一人在这里，没有人。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I'll have my sports to distract me from things.
好吧，我会用运动来分散我的注意力。
And I'll probably go to the gym, or something.
我可能会去健身房或者其他什么地方。
I have my friends and everything.
我有我的朋友和一切。
And I talk to my best friend about-- we'll tell each other everything.
我和我最好的朋友谈论——我们会告诉对方一切。
But it's just not going to be the same as my sister.
但它不会和我姐姐一样。
Yeah, I guess-- that's the same for me.
是的，我想——这对我来说也是一样的。
I don't-- well, personally, I don't tell my friends everything.
我不会——嗯，就个人而言，我不会告诉我的朋友一切。
I mostly just tell Bella everything.
我大多只是告诉贝拉一切。
The plan was Jenni would stay with the girls.
计划是珍妮会和女孩们在一起。
She would work for five more years so she could get her pension, retire.
她还要再工作五年，这样她才能拿到养老金，退休。
Then she'd join Fidel in Mexico, in the city of Merida, in a nice little neighborhood with lots of expats, far from his family in Mexico.
然后她会去墨西哥的梅里达市与菲德尔会合，那里是一个漂亮的小社区，有很多外国人，远离他在墨西哥的家人。
But that's what he wanted.
但这就是他想要的。
He didn't want to feel like a failure, coming back to the same place all these years later.
他不想在这么多年后回到同一个地方，感觉自己是个失败者。
Jenni and the girls would visit him on school breaks.
珍妮和女孩们会在学校放假时去看望他。
As his departure date approached, the girls started hugging their dad a lot more.
随着他离开的日期临近，女孩们开始更多地拥抱他们的父亲。
Bella even watched one of his favorite TV shows with him, The Voice.
贝拉甚至和他一起看了他最喜欢的电视节目之一《美国好声音》。
Fidel's been acting differently too.
菲德尔的表现也有所不同。
He's imparting all the last-minute wisdom he can think of, how to change the car oil, how to fix the stove, how to get the barbecue to work just right.
他正在传授他能想到的所有最后一刻的智慧，如何更换汽车机油，如何修理炉子，如何让烧烤炉正常工作。
Make sure you know what is a screwdriver, and you know what is a wrench.
确保您知道什么是螺丝刀，并且知道什么是扳手。
But that is this part that got saddening, like angry, because I'm going to leave my kids.
但这部分让我感到悲伤，就像生气一样，因为我要离开我的孩子了。
I think that is the stuff, when I got angry with myself, like, oh man, I need to leave my kids.
我想这就是问题所在，当我对自己生气时，就像，天哪，我需要离开我的孩子。
How do you think your relationship will be, if you're not over here?
如果你不在这里，你觉得你们的关系会怎样？
That is going to be a challenge.
这将是一个挑战。
She's going to be here, I'm going to be there.
她会在这里，我也会在那里。
And some days, they're going to feel alone.
有时候，他们会感到孤独。
And some days I'm going to feel alone.
有时候我会感到孤独。
And she's going to be-- I'm pretty sure some days, she's going to be really frustrated, because she got two teenagers.
我很确定有一天她会非常沮丧，因为她有两个十几岁的孩子。
And I'm going to be over there by myself like, no, pretty much no responsibilities.
我会一个人去那里，不，几乎没有任何责任。
You know?
你知道？
And she's going to have all the work.
她将承担所有的工作。
[LAUGHTER] He does.
[LAUGHTER] He does.
I love my husband, he has a lot of great qualities.
我爱我的丈夫，他有很多优秀的品质。
But on the phone, he's like, uh-huh, mm-hmm, yeah, OK.
但在电话里，他说，嗯嗯，嗯，好吧。
It is 100%, 100% going to suck for the next five years.
未来五年100%、100%会很糟糕。
There's no question about it.
毫无疑问。
I wake up in the morning, and I have my coffee while I talk to my husband.
我早上醒来，一边喝咖啡，一边和我的丈夫说话。
And I talk to him before I go to bed at night.
晚上睡觉前我会和他说话。
And I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to manage without him.
我想，如果没有他，我不知道我该如何应对。
I really don't.
我真的不知道。
I see my house, big house, empty.
我看到我的房子，大房子，空荡荡的。
I think my only way to spend my time is working, work the most I can, 12 hours, 13 hours, 14 hours.
我认为我打发时间的唯一方式就是工作，尽我所能地工作，12小时、13小时、14小时。
Why?
为什么？
So you don't have to be alone in the house?
所以你不必一个人呆在家里吗？
Or why?
或者为什么？
Yeah.
是的。
I don't need to be alone.
我不需要独自一人。
And I don't need to be depressed, or thinking, and something else.
我不需要沮丧、思考或其他事情。
Just stay busy, working.
Just stay busy, working.
Since Trump took office, 1.6 million people have self-deported, at least according to the Trump administration.
至少根据特朗普政府的数据，自特朗普上任以来，已有 160 万人自行驱逐出境。
That $1,000 that they offer anyone who self-deports, Fidel refused it.
他们向任何自行驱逐出境的人提供 1,000 美元，但菲德尔拒绝了。
He found it insulting.
他觉得这很侮辱。
He didn't want his name part of any official list being used to prove Trump's success.
他不希望自己的名字出现在任何官方名单中，被用来证明特朗普的成功。
Instead, he decided his own terms of departure, when and how.
相反，他自己决定离开的条件、时间和方式。
I can leave for the front door, not the back door.
我可以从前门走，不能从后门走。
I can live on my own terms.
我可以按照自己的方式生活。
I leave happy, I leave my family happy.
我快乐地离开，我快乐地离开我的家人。
He had planned to take off quietly, but Jenni and the girls refused to let him disappear without a trace, as if he hadn't been here all this time.
他本打算悄悄离开，但珍妮和女孩们不肯让他消失得无影无踪，就好像他一直没有在这里一样。
So they threw a Farewell Fidel party, invited all his friends, his co-workers, and their neighbors to celebrate the last three decades.
因此，他们举办了一场告别菲德尔派对，邀请他所有的朋友、同事和邻居来庆祝过去的三十年。
On the day of the party, he disappeared for a while.
聚会那天，他消失了一段时间。
When he showed back up, he had a massive pinata of Donald Trump, custom-made.
当他回来时，他手里拿着一个定制的巨大的唐纳德·特朗普皮纳塔。
They hung it in the backyard.
他们把它挂在后院。
Fidel swung at it, laughing.
菲德尔笑着挥舞着它。
Ooh!
哦！
Valerie Kipnis And Bella finished it off.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯和贝拉完成了这一切。
[BANGING] Bella Rivera Oh!
[砰砰]贝拉·里维拉哦！
What the heck?
到底是什么？
Fidel left in October.
Fidel left in October.
He pushed back his departure date so he could be there for his 17th wedding anniversary, and for the first soccer tournament of the season.
他推迟了出发日期，以便能够在那里庆祝结婚 17 周年纪念日，并参加本赛季的第一场足球比赛。
Valerie Kipnis is a producer on our show.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis) 是我们节目的制片人。
A week after Fidel left, Jenni heard from the school that a father of two kids there was picked up by ICE and is in detention now.
菲德尔离开一周后，珍妮从学校得知，该校一名两个孩子的父亲被 ICE 抓获，目前已被拘留。
Our program was produced today by Lilly Sullivan.
我们今天的节目由莉莉·沙利文制作。
Dana Chivvis edited Valerie's story.
达纳·奇夫维斯 (Dana Chivvis) 编辑了瓦莱丽 (Valerie) 的故事。
The people who put together today's show include Phia Bennin, Michael Comite, Emmanuel Dzotsi, Suzanne Gaber, Cassie Howley, Chana Joffe-Walt, Seth Lind, Mary Marge Locker, Tobin Low, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Nadia Reiman, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Christopher Swetala, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Phia Bennin、Michael Comite、Emmanuel Dzotsi、Suzanne Gaber、Cassie Howley、Chana Joffe-Walt、Seth Lind、Mary Marge Locker、Tobin Low、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Nadia Reiman、Anthony Roman、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Christopher Swetala 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Kathy Capp, Ashley DeAzevedo and American Families United, Vanessa Dojaquez-Torres, and Bell Woods.
今天特别感谢凯西·卡普 (Kathy Capp)、阿什利·德阿泽维多 (Ashley DeAzevedo) 以及美国家庭联 (American Families United)、凡妮莎·多雅克斯·托雷斯 (Vanessa Dojaquez-Torres) 和贝尔·伍兹 (Bell Woods)。
Heather Gay, who you heard at the top of the show, has a new documentary series about the Mormon church that premiered this week called Surviving Mormonism.
你在节目开头听到的希瑟·盖伊 (Heather Gay) 推出了一部关于摩门教教堂的新纪录片系列，名为“幸存的摩门教”，将于本周首映。
It's on Bravo.
这是在布拉沃。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
A reminder, if you like our show, if you listen to us a lot, please consider signing up as a This American Life partner.
提醒一下，如果您喜欢我们的节目，如果您经常听我们的节目，请考虑注册成为《This American Life》合作伙伴。
Do it for the stuff you get.
为了你得到的东西而这样做。
Bonus episodes, an archive of greatest hits right in your podcast feed, ad-free listening.
奖励剧集、播客提要中最热门歌曲的存档、无广告收听。
Or do it simply because you want us to be able to keep making the show.
或者只是因为您希望我们能够继续制作节目而这样做。
Join at thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.
加入 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners。
Support for This America Life comes from Keurig coffeemakers, bringing families together and defying the Mormon God for 30 years.
对 This America Life 的支持来自 Keurig 咖啡机，30 年来，它让家人团聚在一起，反抗摩门教上帝。
I'm kidding.
我在开玩笑。
They're not an underwriter.
他们不是承销商。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, who loved his mother like crazy.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生，他疯狂地爱着他的母亲。
Thought she was the best, until that day that he walked into her kitchen and saw a certain appliance there.
以为她是最好的，直到那天，他走进她的厨房，看到了那里的某种电器。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。