869: Harold - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #869 | October 3, 2025 869: Harold Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 869 集 | 2025 年 10 月 3 日 869：哈罗德 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass One thing that's been interesting watching the rise of the New York mayoral candidate, Zohran Mamdani, who's a Democrat, is watching precisely how much of the Democratic machine has come out to support him.
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 观察纽约市长候选人、民主党人佐兰·马姆达尼 (Zohran Mamdani) 的崛起，一件有趣的事情就是观察到底有多少民主党机器站出来支持他。
After he won the Democratic primary, of course, normally, the party would fall in behind him.
当然，在他赢得民主党初选后，通常情况下，该党都会落后于他。
And in fact, some prominent Democrats have come forward and endorsed him.
事实上，一些著名的民主党人已经站出来支持他。
But not all of them, not some of the most important New York Democrats-- Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg.
但不是所有人，不是一些最重要的纽约民主党人——参议院少数党领袖查克·舒默、众议院少数党领袖哈基姆·杰弗里斯、前纽约市长迈克尔·布隆伯格。
And I'm bringing all this up today because, watching this, it reminded me of the story of another charismatic politician ages ago, Harold Washington, the first Black mayor of Chicago.
我今天提起这一切是因为，看到这个，它让我想起了很久以前另一位有魅力的政治家哈罗德·华盛顿（Harold Washington）的故事，他是芝加哥第一位黑人市长。
Harold became mayor back in 1983.
哈罗德于 1983 年成为市长。
And that was so revolutionary at the time, that a Black man would become mayor of the city of Chicago, that after the primary, the Democratic Party turned on him.
这在当时是非常具有革命性的，以至于一名黑人成为了芝加哥市的市长，在初选之后，民主党就对他发起了攻击。
And an old-school Democrat, a white guy, ran as an independent against Harold in the general election, much like Andrew Cuomo has done with Mamdani.
一位老派民主党人，一位白人，以无党派身份在大选中与哈罗德竞选，就像安德鲁·科莫对马姆达尼所做的那样。
And back then, most of the Democratic machine endorsed the white guy in the general election.
当时，大多数民主党机器在大选中都支持白人。
Then, once Harold took office, Democrats continued to fight him and the changes that he wanted to make.
然后，哈罗德上任后，民主党人继续与他和他想要做出的改变作斗争。
I want to be clear, I don't want to oversimplify in comparing these two stories.
我想澄清的是，我不想过于简单化地比较这两个故事。
So much of Harold's story is very different than Zohran Mamdani's.
哈罗德的故事在很大程度上与佐兰·马姆达尼的故事截然不同。
The opposition to Harold was over race.
对哈罗德的反对是出于种族问题。
The opposition to Mamdani is more about his views on Israel and his socialism or progressivism, or whatever you want to call it.
对马姆达尼的反对更多是关于他对以色列的看法以及他的社会主义或进步主义，或者无论你怎么称呼它。
The race and religion, the fact that he's Muslim, is definitely in there, too.
种族和宗教，以及他是穆斯林这一事实，肯定也在那里。
But Harold's story is a parable about a Democrat whose very existence made the party have to question what it was all about, which seemed very much like Mamdani.
但哈罗德的故事是一个关于民主党人的寓言，他的存在让该党不得不质疑它的全部内容，这看起来很像马姆达尼。
So we're going to replay his story today.
那么今天我们就来重温一下他的故事。
Back in 1997, 10 years after Harold died, we did a full episode about him.
时间回到 1997 年，也就是哈罗德去世 10 年后，我们制作了一整集关于他的故事。
And can I say, if you don't know anything about Harold Washington, you're in for a treat.
我可以说，如果你对哈罗德·华盛顿一无所知，那你就大饱眼福了。
He is this charismatic, idealistic man, very funny, very smart, great talker, a Democrat framing issues with a skill that it is really hard to think of any Democrat in office right now who does it as well.
他是一个有魅力、理想主义的人，非常有趣、非常聪明、非常健谈，是一位民主党人，他以一种技巧来解决问题，很难想象现在任何在任的民主党人也能做到这一点。
But also a pragmatist, somebody who got elected, somebody who got things done.
但他也是一个实用主义者，一个当选的人，一个把事情做好的人。
So I hope you like this.
所以我希望你喜欢这个。
It's one of my favorite episodes we've ever done.
这是我们做过的我最喜欢的剧集之一。
Here we go.
开始了。
Here's that show from 1997.
这是1997年的那个节目。
Before our story begins, let's remember how it used to be.
在我们的故事开始之前，让我们回忆一下它曾经是怎样的。
Jacky lived on the South Side, in a Black neighborhood.
杰基住在南区的一个黑人社区。
The city didn't enforce the housing code properly, didn't investigate arsons.
该市没有正确执行住房法，也没有调查纵火案。
There would be fires going on in Woodlawn daily, several times a day.
伍德劳恩每天都会发生火灾，一天好几次。
And it was just fire engines all the time.
一直都是消防车。
And so my daughter started to believe that when buildings got old and died, like people got old and died, that you knew a building was old and was dying because it would burn up.
所以我女儿开始相信，当建筑物变老并死亡时，就像人变老并死亡一样，你知道一座建筑物很旧并且正在消亡，因为它会被烧毁。
Before our story begins, Chicago was run by the Democratic machine, and Black aldermen, like Danny Davis, would turn out to vote for the machine, election after election.
在我们的故事开始之前，芝加哥是由民主党机器统治的，像丹尼·戴维斯这样的黑人市议员会在一次又一次的选举中投票支持该机器。
But the machine didn't reward the Black wards for those votes the way it paid back the white wards on the North Side, with street cleanings and sewers, with newly paved roads and sidewalks, economic development money.
但机器并没有像回报北区的白人选区那样奖励黑人选区的选票，包括街道清洁和下水道、新铺的道路和人行道、经济发展资金。
Well, actually, we had called the areas colonies.
嗯，实际上，我们把这些地区称为殖民地。
I mean, and just basically picking up the garbage in these wards, just trying to keep them clean was a real problem.
我的意思是，基本上只是捡起这些病房里的垃圾，只是想保持它们清洁，这确实是一个问题。
The person who was elected, there would be so much focus on garbage pickup that you'd almost have to just be the garbage alderman.
当选的人会非常关注垃圾收集，以至于你几乎只能成为垃圾市议员。
I mean, I recall telling people time and time again that I was tired of just being the garbage alderman.
我的意思是，我记得一次又一次地告诉人们，我厌倦了仅仅担任垃圾委员。
Before our story begins, the Chicago political machine squeezed Black kids into mobile trailers behind public schools, rather than let them attend white schools just blocks away.
在我们的故事开始之前，芝加哥政治机器将黑人孩子挤进公立学校后面的移动拖车，而不是让他们去几个街区外的白人学校。
Before our story begins, the Chicago machine built high-rise public housing to hold Blacks on the South Side and keep them from moving into white neighborhoods.
在我们的故事开始之前，芝加哥机器建造了高层公共住房，以将黑人留在南区，并阻止他们搬入白人社区。
Before our story begins, the Chicago political machine built a system of highways that coincidentally divided Black neighborhoods from white and particularly insulated the mayor's all-white neighborhood, Bridgeport.
在我们的故事开始之前，芝加哥的政治机器建造了一个高速公路系统，巧合地将黑人社区与白人区分开来，特别是将市长的全白人社区布里奇波特隔离开来。
Typical inequities-- unemployment in the white 11th Ward was 0%; unemployment in the 4th Ward, where Blacks lived, was 25%.
典型的不平等现象——白人第11区的失业率为0%；黑人居住的第四区的失业率为 25%。
This is a story about one ethnic group doing what so many other ethnic groups have done in this country-- put its own candidate in City Hall, won the mayor's office.
这是一个关于一个民族做了这个国家许多其他民族所做的事情的故事——将自己的候选人推入市政厅，赢得市长职位。
But because this ethnic group happened to be Black, what happened was unlike anything that happens when an Italian politician or an Irish politician or a Jewish politician takes City Hall.
但因为这个族群恰好是黑人，所发生的事情与意大利政客、爱尔兰政客或犹太政客占领市政厅时所发生的情况不同。
White voters deserted their own political party.
白人选民抛弃了自己的政党。
White politicians tried to stage a public, slow-motion coup.
白人政客试图发动一场公开的、缓慢的政变。
And the mayor faced pressures that were different from those faced by any white mayor of any city in America.
这位市长面临的压力与美国任何城市的白人市长所面临的压力都不同。
And nobody tried to pretend that the fight was not about race.
没有人试图假装这场战斗与种族无关。
Good evening.
晚上好。
You're on with Harold Washington.
你正在和哈罗德·华盛顿一起。
Good evening.
晚上好。
Mr. Washington, could you clear up a point for me?
华盛顿先生，你能帮我澄清一下吗？
I understand that once you move into City Hall, you're going to remove all the elevator boxes and replace them with vines.
据我所知，一旦你搬进市政厅，你就会拆除所有电梯箱并用藤蔓代替。
Is that-- is that true?
这是真的吗？
With vines.
有藤蔓。
Harold Washington Vines?
哈罗德·华盛顿·维恩斯？
V-I-N-E-S?
V-I-N-E-S？
No, no. Radio Host I'm not even going to ask you why.
不，不。电台主持人 我什至不会问你为什么。
No, I don't think we have 3 million Tarzans in this city.
不，我不认为这座城市里有 300 万只泰山。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today we bring you the story of Harold Washington, Chicago's first Black mayor.
今天我们为您带来芝加哥第一位黑人市长哈罗德·华盛顿的故事。
He died early in his second term of office, back in 1987.
1987 年，他在第二个任期初期去世。
Act One of our program today is about what happened during Harold's life.
我们今天的节目第一幕是关于哈罗德一生中发生的事情。
Then we have a short Act Two about what came afterwards.
然后我们有一个简短的第二幕，讲述后来发生的事情。
A word about the voices you're going to be hearing over the course of this hour, it's mostly people who were close to Harold Washington, many of them activists and politicians-- Lu Palmer, Judge Eugene Pincham, Congressman Danny Davis, then-alderman Eugene Sawyer.
关于这一小时内你将听到的声音，主要是与哈罗德·华盛顿关系密切的人，其中许多是活动家和政治家——卢·帕尔默、尤金·平查姆法官、国会议员丹尼·戴维斯、时任市议员尤金·索耶。
There are people from his administration-- Jacky Grimshaw, Grayson Mitchell, Timuel Black, and some reporters who followed his story-- Vernon Jarrett, Monroe Anderson, Gary Rivlin, Laura Washington, who later became his press secretary.
其中有来自他的政府的人——杰基·格里姆肖、格雷森·米切尔、蒂缪尔·布莱克，以及一些关注他故事的记者——弗农·贾勒特、门罗·安德森、加里·里夫林、后来成为他的新闻秘书的劳拉·华盛顿。
There will also be an occasional opponent or voter.
偶尔也会有反对者或选民。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
This American Life.
这美国生活。
Act One, Yesterday.
第一幕，昨天。
For decades, Chicago politics had been run with an iron hand by the legendary political boss, Richard J.
几十年来，芝加哥政坛一直由传奇政治大佬理查德·J·布什(Richard J.
Daley.
戴利.
Our story begins just after his death, in 1976, when the machine was sputtering a bit with no strong leader and the possibility, a small possibility, of change.
我们的故事开始于他去世后不久，即 1976 年，当时机器正在缓慢运转，没有强有力的领导者，也没有变革的可能性（可能性很小）。
To give you a sense of what it meant to be a loyal black alderman in the Chicago machine at that time, consider what happened in City Hall the day Richard Daley died.
为了让您了解当时芝加哥机器中忠诚的黑人市议员意味着什么，请考虑一下理查德·戴利去世那天市政厅发生的事情。
By tradition, the president pro tem of the city council should have at least occupied the mayor's office until such time as a process was determined for the election of a new mayor.
按照传统，市议会临时主席至少应该担任市长职务，直到新市长的选举程序确定为止。
And who was the-- Vernon Jarrett That was Wilson Frost, a loyal Black alderman from the 34th Ward, a Daley Democrat, a lawyer, impeccable reputation, impeccable credentials.
谁是——弗农·贾勒特 那是威尔逊·弗罗斯特，一位来自第 34 选区的忠诚的黑人市议员，戴利民主党人，律师，无可挑剔的声誉，无可挑剔的资历。
The only misqualification he had was he's Black.
他唯一的错误资格是他是黑人。
God ordained that he be born Black.
上帝注定他生来就是黑人。
And the power structure sent police officers to the fifth floor, armed to sit at the door to prevent Frost from even entering the mayor's office.
权力机构还派警察到五楼，全副武装地坐在门口，阻止弗罗斯特进入市长办公室。
That was a tremendous insult.
这是极大的侮辱。
It was an insult, but it was not unusual.
这是一种侮辱，但这并不罕见。
The white machine picked who the Black leaders would be.
白人机器选择了黑人领袖。
And mostly, those leaders did what they were told.
大多数情况下，这些领导人都按照他们的指示行事。
Blacks in Chicago had nowhere to go but the Democratic machine.
芝加哥的黑人除了民主党机器之外别无去处。
They were stuck.
他们被困住了。
But then there were a series of famous and especially infuriating insults from the white political establishment.
但随后白人政治机构发起了一系列著名的、尤其令人愤怒的侮辱。
Biggest among them, Black voters finally elected an anti-machine candidate named Jane Byrne, who, once in office, betrayed them, sucked up to the white machine, made appointments and decisions specifically to prove she was not in the pocket of Black Chicago.
其中最大的黑人选民最终选出了一位名叫简·伯恩的反机器候选人，她一上任就背叛了他们，巴结白人机器，专门做出任命和决定，以证明她不在黑人芝加哥的口袋里。
Then, circumstances came together-- some by planning, some by luck-- that made it possible to elect a Black mayor.
然后，各种情况结合在一起——有些是计划好的，有些是运气的——使得选举一位黑人市长成为可能。
The planning-- organizers registered over 100,000 minority voters, held rallies and meetings, declaring it was time to elect a Black mayor.
策划组织者登记了超过 100,000 名少数族裔选民，举行集会和会议，宣布是时候选举黑人市长了。
The luck-- two white candidates split the white vote.
幸运的是，两名白人候选人平分了白人选票。
One more piece of luck-- the Chicago Democratic Party had created, in spite of itself, Harold Washington.
还有一点运气——芝加哥民主党不由自主地创造了哈罗德·华盛顿。
Vernon Jarrett was an old friend and a vocal newspaper columnist.
弗农·贾勒特是一位老朋友，也是一位直言不讳的报纸专栏作家。
And Harold was in that party now.
哈罗德现在也在那个聚会中。
Don't forget, Harold had been a precinct captain.
别忘了，哈罗德曾经是一名分局队长。
His father had groomed him as a precinct captain since he was, what, 11 years old.
从他 11 岁起，他的父亲就将他培养成一名分局队长。
But his father was done wrong.
但他的父亲做错了。
So Harold is an unusual person in that he nursed this resentment of how the Democratic Party had deserted his father at one time, when his father ran for alderman of the 3rd Ward.
因此，哈罗德是一个不寻常的人，因为当他的父亲竞选第三选区的市议员时，他对民主党抛弃他父亲的行为怀有怨恨。
He was a confused guy, got a little sense of mission in him, and wanting to do the right thing, but yet, he was balanced off by this pragmatism that you got to play ball, to a degree, with the organization.
他是一个困惑的人，心里有一点使命感，想做正确的事，但是，他被这种实用主义所平衡，在某种程度上，你必须与组织合作。
And he was correct.
他是对的。
He wouldn't have made it without the Democratic machine.
如果没有民主党机器，他就不可能成功。
Usually, in Chicago, political activists had a choice.
通常，在芝加哥，政治活动家有选择。
They could go with politicians who were good on the issues, but then had no political experience dealing with the machine.
他们可以与擅长解决问题但没有处理机器的政治经验的政客合作。
Or they could get hacks who knew the machine, but were terrible on the issues.
或者他们可能会遇到了解机器但在问题上很糟糕的黑客。
Washington was the rarest kind of politician-- delivered on the issues, knew the machine-- which was why, in fact, he did not want the job.
华盛顿是最稀有的政治家——能够解决问题，了解机制——这就是为什么他实际上不想得到这份工作。
Lu Palmer was at the center of the effort to draft a Black mayor.
卢·帕尔默是选举黑人市长的努力的中心人物。
Well, we talked to Harold.
好吧，我们和哈罗德谈过。
He was reluctant, very reluctant.
他很不甘心，非常不甘心。
At the time, he was in Congress and was enjoying being a congressman.
当时，他在国会，并很享受担任国会议员的乐趣。
Enjoying it partly because he was far from the machine.
享受它的部分原因是他远离机器。
He set some requirements, how much money we'd have to raise.
他提出了一些要求，我们必须筹集多少钱。
We'd have to get 50,000 new voters.
我们必须获得 50,000 名新选民。
He asked that thinking, well, you'll never get that or--
他问这个问题的想法是，好吧，你永远不会明白这一点，否则——
He used 50,000, knowing that no way in the world are they going to come up with 50,000 new re-- and that was hard in those days to come up with 50,000 registered voters.
他使用了 50,000 名选民，因为他知道他们不可能再拿出 50,000 名新选民——而在当时，要获得 50,000 名登记选民是很困难的。
May I jump ahead a moment?
我可以先跳一下吗？
Do you know what put Harold Washington over with the broad masses of Black people was when they had the primary debates.
你知道是什么让哈罗德·华盛顿在初选辩论中受到广大黑人的欢迎吗？
Because you had Daley.
因为你有戴利。
You had Byrne.
你有伯恩。
And then you had somebody who could talk-- Harold.
然后你就有了一个会说话的人——哈罗德。
Let's review that lineup.
让我们回顾一下这个阵容。
Daley was Richard M.
戴利是理查德·M.
Daley, son of the late mayor, Richard J.
戴利 (Daley)，已故市长理查德·J·戴利 (Richard J.
Daley.
戴利.
Byrne was Jane Byrne, the then-incumbent mayor.
伯恩就是时任市长简·伯恩。
And Harold-- you already know Harold.
还有哈罗德——你已经认识哈罗德了。
Those were the three Democratic contenders in the mayoral race.
这就是市长竞选中的三位民主党竞争者。
It is the fall of 1983.
那是1983年的秋天。
Here's a typical exchange between them.
这是他们之间的典型交流。
The three of them were asked at one point what they would do, if anything, about the police department's Office of Professional Standards, the place in the police department which handles complaints about police misconduct and brutality.
他们三人一度被问到，如果有的话，他们会对警察局的专业标准办公室做些什么，该办公室是警察局中负责处理有关警察不当行为和暴行的投诉的地方。
Jane Byrne and Richard Daley sound basically like normal politicians.
简·伯恩和理查德·戴利听起来基本上就像普通的政客。
They offer dull truisms, like--
他们提出一些乏味的老生常谈，比如——
I believe that the members of the police board, chaired by Reverend Wilbur Daniels, really do take that job very seriously.
我相信以威尔伯·丹尼尔斯牧师为首的警察委员会成员确实非常认真地对待这项工作。
Here is the most specific that Richard Daley, then state's attorney, got that day.
以下是时任州检察官理查德·戴利 (Richard Daley) 当天得到的最具体信息。
I think like anything else, there must be improvement.
我认为就像其他事情一样，必须有所改进。
And there is nothing wrong with improvement in the Office of Professional Standards.
专业标准办公室的改进并没有什么问题。
[APPLAUSE] Ira Glass When Harold Washington comes on, what is most noticeable is that he sounds like a human being.
[掌声]艾拉·格拉斯 当哈罗德·华盛顿出场时，最引人注目的是他听起来像一个人。
The precise question is, what would I do to improve the Office of Professional Standards?
确切的问题是，我将如何改进专业标准办公室？
When I answer it, I'll be the only one who answered the question.
当我回答这个问题时，我将是唯一回答这个问题的人。
[APPLAUSE, CHEERING] The Office of Professional Standards was arrived at after a long and torturous situation in this city in which members, not all, but members of the Chicago Police Department, consistently refused to be adequate and professional in their handling of Hispanic, Black people.
[掌声，欢呼]专业标准办公室是在这座城市经历了长期而痛苦的局面之后成立的，其中的成员（不是全部，而是芝加哥警察局的成员）始终拒绝以足够和专业的方式处理西班牙裔、黑人。
It's just that simple.
就是这么简单。
What happened was he became plausible to the Black community.
所发生的事情是，他对黑人社区来说变得可信了。
Suddenly they heard somebody who was articulate, knew what he was talking about, and was forceful.
突然，他们听到有人能言善道，知道自己在说什么，而且很有说服力。
In the first place, the appointees, all but nine, are political appointees.
首先，除了九人之外，所有被任命者都是政治任命者。
Many of the investigators are wedded to or related to police members of the Chicago Police Department.
许多调查员与芝加哥警察局的警察结婚或有亲属关系。
A lot of people, Black people, had felt all along that we'd been bossed by the dunderheads.
很多人，包括黑人，一直以来都觉得我们一直被那些蠢货所支配。
They are not that bright.
他们没那么聪明。
They don't know that much.
他们知道的不多。
And Harold, Harold Washington standing there between Jane Byrne and Richard M.
哈罗德，哈罗德·华盛顿站在简·伯恩和理查德·M·伯恩之间。
Daley, the son, so cool, so well-read, that Black people were just thrilled.
戴利，儿子，很酷，博学多才，黑人都兴奋不已。
It was like watching Michael Jordan with a basketball.
这就像看迈克尔·乔丹打篮球一样。
Mr. Brzeczek, unfortunately, at the behest of this mayor, as a minion of this mayor, as a subaltern of this mayor, as a subordinate of this mayor, has destroyed his credibility--
不幸的是，布热切克先生在这位市长的授意下，作为这位市长的爪牙，作为这位市长的下属，作为这位市长的下属，毁掉了他的信誉——
Harold used to use words that even some of these journalists, these white journalists had to scratch their head and go to the dictionary.
哈罗德曾经使用过一些词，甚至连这些记者中的一些，这些白人记者也不得不挠头去查字典。
Black people love that.
黑人就喜欢这样。
And he jumped on Jane Byrne and took her by surprise, shocked her.
他跳到简·伯恩身上，让她大吃一惊，震惊不已。
And she was still reeling from the shock.
而她还沉浸在震惊之中。
And I shall never forget it that night.
我永远不会忘记那天晚上。
I said, this man's got it made.
我说，这个人已经做到了。
He's in.
他进来了。
Here's one way that being a Black candidate for office is different from being a white candidate.
这是黑人候选人与白人候选人不同的一个方面。
If you're Black, you get thrown into the chasm of misunderstanding that divides white America from Black America, in a way that white politicians almost never are.
如果你是黑人，你就会陷入将美国白人与美国黑人分开的误解深渊，而白人政客几乎从来不会这样做。
Two Americas simply see certain things differently.
两个美国对某些事情的看法根本不同。
For instance, what should Harold Washington say about the late mayor, Richard J.
例如，哈罗德·华盛顿 (Harold Washington) 应该如何评价已故市长理查德·J·华盛顿 (Richard J.
Daley?
戴利？
Many white Chicagoans still held him in awe, while Black and Latino Chicago, for good reasons, had a different take.
许多芝加哥白人仍然对他怀有敬畏之心，而芝加哥黑人和拉丁裔则有充分的理由有不同的看法。
Daley openly stood against integration of the city's neighborhoods.
戴利公开反对城市社区的整合。
The night after Martin Luther King, Jr.'s death, he ordered police to shoot to kill rioters.
马丁·路德·金去世后的第二天晚上，他命令警察开枪射杀暴徒。
Well, here's what Harold decided to say.
好吧，这就是哈罗德决定说的话。
When he says that he would hope that I would have all the good qualities of past mayors, there are no good qualities of past mayors to be had.
当他说他希望我拥有过去市长的所有优良品质时，我没有过去市长的优良品质。
None.
没有任何。
None.
没有任何。
None.
没有任何。
[APPLAUSE] None.
[鼓掌]没有。
I did not mourn at the bier of the late mayor.
我没有在已故市长的灵柩前哀悼。
I regret anyone dying.
我对有人死去感到遗憾。
I have no regrets about him leaving.
我对他的离开并不后悔。
He was a racist from the core, head to toe and hip to hip.
他从头到脚、从臀部到臀部都是一个彻头彻尾的种族主义者。
There's no doubt about it.
毫无疑问。
And he spewed and fought and oppressed Black people to the point that some of them thought that was the way they were supposed to live, just like some slaves on the plantation thought that was the way they were supposed to live.
他吐口水、打架、压迫黑人，以至于他们中的一些人认为这就是他们应该的生活方式，就像种植园里的一些奴隶认为这就是他们应该的生活方式一样。
It was just like everything else he did and said; it was historic.
这就像他所做的一切和所说的一切一样；这是历史性的。
And no one would challenge the late mayor on anything, much less call him that kind of name.
没有人会在任何事情上挑战已故市长，更不用说这样称呼他了。
And I think that was what made him so provocative.
我认为这就是他如此挑衅的原因。
It's what made him so loved by the people who supported him and so hated by the people who wanted to deny him the office.
这就是为什么他受到支持他的人的爱戴，而那些想要剥夺他职位的人则如此憎恨他。
He didn't mince any words.
他没有拐弯抹角。
I'd give no hosannas to a racist, nor do I appreciate or respect his son.
我不会向种族主义者致敬，我也不欣赏或尊重他的儿子。
If his name were anything other than Daley, his campaign would be a joke.
如果他的名字不是戴利，他的竞选活动就会成为一个笑话。
He has nothing to offer anybody but a bent-up tin-can smile, no background.
他没有什么可以给任何人的，除了一个弯曲的锡罐微笑，没有背景。
[APPLAUSE] And he runs on the legacy of his name, an insult to common sense and decency.
[掌声]他依靠自己的名字来竞选，这是对常识和正派的侮辱。
Everything I've ever got in the world, I worked for it.
我在世界上所拥有的一切，都是我努力争取来的。
Nobody gave me anything.
没有人给我任何东西。
The primary taught him that he could transcend being the third candidate, of being the Black candidate.
初选告诉他，他可以超越成为第三候选人，成为黑人候选人。
And he could take that Adam Powell positioning.
他可以接受亚当·鲍威尔的定位。
He could take that Marcus Garvey positioning, where you're the hybrid between the politician and the public man.
他可以采用马库斯·加维的定位，即政治家和公众人士的混合体。
And you become somewhere between Muhammad Ali, Michael Jackson, somewhere in superstar.
然后你就成为了穆罕默德·阿里、迈克尔·杰克逊之间的某个超级巨星。
No, though I may sound abrasive, I have no malice toward anybody.
不，虽然我可能听起来很粗暴，但我对任何人都没有恶意。
I have a job to do.
我有工作要做。
I've got places to go and things to do.
我还有很多地方要去，还有很多事情要做。
And I approach this job just like any masterful surgeon, when you have to cut out a cancer.
当你必须切除癌症时，我就像任何熟练的外科医生一样对待这份工作。
I cut it out with no emotion.
我毫无感情地把它剪掉了。
Get it out.
把它拿出来。
Get out.
出去。
This dominant culture may have messed up my pocket, but they haven't messed up my head one bit.
这种主流文化可能弄乱了我的口袋，但他们并没有弄乱我的头脑。
[CHUCKLES] I believe in the powers of redemption.
[轻笑]我相信救赎的力量。
And I simply cannot believe, in the God I worship, that he would permit us to sit on this Earth for 400 years-- or rather, in this country for 400 years-- and suffer the indignities which we have suffered, piled time after time, high after high, and so heavy, it has almost broken the backs of one of the most powerful people in this world.
我根本无法相信，我所敬拜的上帝，他会允许我们在这个地球上呆上四百年——或者更确切地说，在这个国家上呆上四百年——并承受我们所遭受的侮辱，这些侮辱一次又一次地堆积起来，重重的，几乎压断了这个世界上最有权势的人之一的背。
I can't believe there is no redemption.
我不敢相信没有救赎。
But that redemption is not going to come out in hatred.
但这种救赎不会以仇恨来实现。
It's going to come out in positive attitudes toward our fellow man.
它将以对我们同胞的积极态度表现出来。
We've come into the 1980s with an understanding that we have not just a right, but a responsibility to give the best that we have to a society.
进入 20 世纪 80 年代，我们认识到，我们不仅有权利，而且有责任为社会提供最好的帮助。
We want to give it.
我们想给它。
And we're going to give it if we have to beat them across the head and knock them down and make them take it.
如果我们必须打他们的头，把他们打倒，让他们接受，我们就会给予。
We're going to give it to them.
我们要把它给他们。
During this election and during Harold Washington's terms as mayor, in Chicago, every day was the day after the OJ verdict.
在这次选举和哈罗德·华盛顿担任芝加哥市长期间，每一天都是 OJ 判决后的第二天。
Every day was a day when Black and white Chicago took a look at the same set of facts and drew two different conclusions.
每一天，芝加哥黑人和白人都会审视同一组事实，得出两个不同的结论。
For instance, when the media raised questions about Washington's past, it made white Chicagoans question his qualifications for office, but it made minority voters more loyal.
例如，当媒体质疑华盛顿的过去时，芝加哥白人质疑他的公职资格，但这却让少数族裔选民更加忠诚。
In 1983, when Harold announced his candidacy, 95% of Black people never heard of him.
1983年，当哈罗德宣布参选时，95%的黑人从未听说过他。
And what happened was the white power-structured media first criticized Harold for having been convicted of a tax violation.
所发生的事情是，白人权力结构的媒体首先批评哈罗德被判犯有税收违法行为。
He failed to file his returns.
他未能提交纳税申报表。
We should be precise about this.
我们应该准确地对待这一点。
It wasn't that he hadn't paid.
并不是说他没有付钱。
It's that he hadn't filed the return.
就是他没有报税。
He hadn't filed the return.
他没有提交申报表。
That's right.
这是正确的。
He'd paid withholding.
他已经缴纳了预扣税。
Right.
正确的。
Eugene Pincham There was nothing to it.
尤金·平查姆 没什么。
So what difference does it make?
那么这有什么区别呢？
But the point is, when this occurred, it gave him publicity that he otherwise would not have gotten.
但关键是，当这件事发生时，他获得了原本不会得到的知名度。
Many people in the Black community resented the criticisms being leveled against him.
黑人社区的许多人对针对他的批评感到不满。
They then said, well, you're not married.
然后他们说，好吧，你还没有结婚。
You can't be mayor if you're not married.
没有结婚就不能当市长。
We made Jane Byrne marry McMullen.
我们让简·伯恩嫁给了麦克马伦。
We made Jim Thompson marry Jane Thompson.
我们让吉姆·汤普森嫁给了简·汤普森。
We made Kennedy, in the Senate, go back to his wife.
我们让参议院的肯尼迪回到他的妻子身边。
You cannot be a viable politician if you're not married.
如果你没有结婚，你就不可能成为一个可行的政治家。
Here again, he did something that Blacks weren't accustomed to seeing Blacks do.
在这里，他再次做了一些黑人不习惯看到黑人做的事情。
He stood up.
他站了起来。
And he said, I'm not going to get married.
他说，我不会结婚。
Everybody thought, man, go marry, if this is going to make-- and he said, I'm not.
每个人都想，伙计，结婚吧，如果这能让——而他说，我不会。
Nobody can tell me to marry.
没有人能告诉我结婚。
I don't want to marry.
我不想结婚。
My marital status has nothing to do with my qualifications as mayor.
我的婚姻状况与我担任市长的资格无关。
And here again, the Black community looked at him with a great deal more respect now, because many of the people, Black folks who married, don't want to be married no way.
在这里，黑人社区现在更加尊重他，因为许多人，已婚的黑人，无论如何都不想结婚。
So they said, go on, Harold.
所以他们说，继续吧，哈罗德。
But he got some more publicity.
但他得到了更多的宣传。
And quite frankly, you would have to concede-- I certainly will say it-- that had a white candidate with the same baggage been running, there's no way in the world he would been elected mayor.
坦率地说，你必须承认——我当然会这么说——如果一位有着同样包袱的白人候选人参加竞选，他根本不可能当选市长。
How do you figure that?
你怎么看出来的？
Eugene Pincham Well, you know it's true.
尤金·平查姆：嗯，你知道这是真的。
Your white candidate who'd been in jail for failing to file a tax return, who wasn't married, rumored to be a homosexual-- everybody knew Harold wasn't Harold homosexual, but that was the rumor they tried to create-- and a disbarred lawyer?
你的白人候选人因为没有提交纳税申报表而入狱，没有结婚，有传言是同性恋——每个人都知道哈罗德不是同性恋，但那是他们试图制造的谣言——还有一个被取消律师资格的律师？
No way in the world, if he was white, would he be elected.
如果他是白人，他根本不可能当选。
What do I think of it?
我对此有何看法？
I think here again, well, if South Africa can elect a man who's a felon--
我再次想，如果南非能够选出一个重罪犯——
Nelson Mandela.
纳尔逊·曼德拉。
Eugene Pincham Nelson Mandela, for 27 years.
尤金·平查姆·纳尔逊·曼德拉，27 年。
Yeah.
是的。
You know what's interesting about it is none of those criticisms also go to what the white fear was.
你知道有趣的是，这些批评都没有涉及白人的恐惧。
I wonder, as far as you could tell, what was at the heart of the white fear?
我想知道，据你所知，白色恐惧的核心是什么？
Because he's Black.
因为他是黑人。
Ira Glass And so the two Chicagos headed to primary day-- white Chicago mostly ignoring the Washington candidacy, Black Chicago abuzz about it.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）就这样，两个芝加哥人进入了初选日——白人芝加哥人基本上无视华盛顿的候选资格，黑人芝加哥人对此议论纷纷。
And when he won, the two Chicagos had wildly different reactions, as you might expect.
当他获胜时，正如你所预料的那样，两个芝加哥人的反应截然不同。
Monroe Anderson was a reporter at The Chicago Tribune at the time.
门罗·安德森当时是《芝加哥论坛报》的记者。
He was one of the few Blacks who worked in the newsroom the day after Harold Washington's primary victory.
他是哈罗德·华盛顿初选胜利后第二天在新闻编辑室工作的少数黑人之一。
I mean, there was such a somber feeling around that place.
我的意思是，那个地方周围有一种阴沉的感觉。
I mean, it was like somebody's family member, beloved family member had died or something.
我的意思是，就像某人的家人、心爱的家人去世了之类的。
I mean, it was just really somber.
我的意思是，这真的很阴沉。
And we were in this jubilant mood, except you did not feel comfortable expressing it, looking it.
我们都处于这种欢欣鼓舞的心情中，只是你不舒服地表达它，看着它。
So we walked around, (SINGING) doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo-doo.
于是我们走来走去，（唱着）嘟、嘟、嘟、嘟、嘟、嘟。
And then we would go into somebody's office or someplace inside and go, yes!
然后我们会走进某人的办公室或里面的某个地方，然后说，是的！
[LAUGHS] And jump up and down and then come out, walk around.
[笑]然后跳上跳下，然后出来，走来走去。
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
We're reporters, too.
我们也是记者。
Yes, we understand.
是的，我们明白。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Ira Glass After primary day, things got ugly.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 初选后，事情变得很糟糕。
Usually, winning the Democratic primary for mayor in Chicago means you've won the office.
通常，赢得芝加哥市长民主党初选就意味着你赢得了这个职位。
The Republican Party doesn't count in city elections.
共和党在城市选举中不算数。
But in this case, as Chicago moved toward the general election in April 1983, 90% of white Chicago deserted the Democratic Party to vote for a Republican named Bernie Epton.
但在这种情况下，当芝加哥临近 1983 年 4 月大选时，90% 的芝加哥白人抛弃了民主党，转而投票支持一位名叫伯尼·埃普顿 (Bernie Epton) 的共和党人。
One of his campaign slogans?
他的竞选口号之一？
"Epton, before it's too late."
“爱普顿，趁一切还来得及之前。”
Black Chicago saw the Democratic defections as racism, pure and simple.
黑人芝加哥将民主党的叛逃视为纯粹的种族主义。
Meanwhile, white policemen circulated hate literature illustrated with chicken bones and watermelons.
与此同时，白人警察传播以鸡骨头和西瓜为插图的仇恨文学。
And in perhaps the most famous incident in the campaign, while stumping with Walter Mondale, Harold Washington had stopped at St. Pascal's church, on the city's white northwest side.
也许是竞选中最著名的事件，在与沃尔特·蒙代尔一起竞选时，哈罗德·华盛顿在该市白色西北侧的圣帕斯卡教堂停了下来。
There was almost a riot.
几乎发生了骚乱。
Ira Glass Monroe Anderson covered it for the Tribune.
艾拉·格拉斯·门罗·安德森为论坛报报道了这件事。
There's a racial slur in this next quote that we're leaving in, so you get the full picture here.
我们要保留的下一段引文中存在种族歧视，因此您可以在这里了解完整情况。
When Harold showed up and the press entourage showed up, I mean, there was this angry-- I mean, people were, like, approaching the car.
当哈罗德出现和媒体随行人员出现时，我的意思是，人们很生气——我的意思是，人们就像在走近汽车。
I mean, it was just-- people were out of control.
我的意思是，这只是——人们失去了控制。
I mean, they were-- I thought that we were in physical danger.
我的意思是，他们——我认为我们处于人身危险之中。
And then we get to the church, and somebody spraypainted on the church graffiti that said, "Die, nigger, die."
然后我们到达教堂，有人在教堂涂鸦上写着：“死吧，黑鬼，死吧。”
On a Catholic church?
在天主教堂上？
Monroe Anderson Yes.
门罗·安德森 是的。
Meanwhile, something curious happened.
与此同时，奇怪的事情发生了。
Occasionally, Harold Washington or one of his supporters would say in passing something like, it's our turn now.
哈罗德·华盛顿或他的一位支持者偶尔会顺便说一句，现在轮到我们了。
And when they did, it made headlines.
当他们这样做时，它就成了头条新闻。
White Chicago and the mainstream press saw it as more than just ethnic pride.
白人芝加哥和主流媒体认为这不仅仅是种族自豪感。
It was seen as threatening.
这被视为具有威胁性。
This is one of the ways that being a Black politician in America is different than being a Polish politician or an Irish politician.
这是美国黑人政治家与波兰政治家或爱尔兰政治家的不同之处之一。
Judge Pincham.
平查姆法官。
The difference is very, very simple.
区别非常非常简单。
And that is when the Polish attempt to get a Polish mayor, it's good ethnic politics.
当波兰人试图选出一位波兰市长时，这是很好的种族政治。
When the Irish try to get an Irish mayor, it's good ethnic politics.
当爱尔兰人试图选出一位爱尔兰市长时，这是很好的种族政治。
But when the Blacks try to get a Black mayor, it's racism.
但当黑人试图选出一位黑人市长时，那就是种族主义。
Glenn Leonard grew up in the white southwest side of Chicago, didn't vote for Harold Washington.
格伦·伦纳德在芝加哥西南部的白人区长大，没有投票给哈罗德·华盛顿。
I think a lot of people thought that he was going to bring in a lot of people that were going to be Black and were going to change the city.
我想很多人都认为他会引进很多黑人来改变这座城市。
Now we have our chance.
现在我们有机会了。
Now let's go ahead and do it.
现在让我们继续去做吧。
Let's right all these so-called wrongs.
让我们纠正所有这些所谓的错误。
Whether they were right or wrong, it's another story.
无论他们是对还是错，那是另一回事了。
Let's right these wrongs.
让我们纠正这些错误。
Let's move in.
我们搬进去吧。
Let's take over.
让我们接管吧。
Let's have more of a say in the local government.
让我们在当地政府中有更多的发言权。
And people just saw that as a threat.
人们只是将其视为威胁。
They thought, well, these people are going to come in, move into the corner house or whatever, and another white flight starts again.
他们想，好吧，这些人会进来，搬进街角的房子或其他什么地方，然后另一架白色航班又开始了。
I think that that was a big fear.
我认为这是一个很大的恐惧。
Chicago will become another Detroit, people said, another Cleveland.
人们说，芝加哥将成为另一个底特律，另一个克利夫兰。
Property values would fall, businesses leave.
房产价值会下跌，企业会离开。
Many whites had already fled one set of neighborhoods during white flight.
许多白人在白人逃亡期间已经逃离了一组社区。
And Glenn says that white Chicago was used to having the late Mayor Daley protect the neighborhoods, for instance, by blocking federal schemes to bring in low-income public housing all over the city.
格伦说，白人芝加哥习惯于让已故市长戴利保护社区，例如，阻止联邦计划在全市引入低收入公共住房。
But Harold Washington wouldn't do that.
但哈罗德·华盛顿不会这么做。
He was going to obviously no longer block these.
他显然不会再阻止这些了。
And these low-income housing units would come into every neighborhood in the city or whatever.
这些低收入住房单元将进入城市的每个社区或其他地方。
And that would start the ball rolling in your-- what do they call it down there in the Far East, when the communists-- the domino effect, thank you.
这将开始在你的——在远东，当共产党人时，他们称之为什么——多米诺骨牌效应，谢谢。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Ira Glass This is one thing that Black politicians have to deal with that white politicians don't.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 这是黑人政客必须处理而白人政客不需要处理的一件事。
And this is true from Chicago to Washington, DC, from North Carolina to South Africa.
从芝加哥到华盛顿特区，从北卡罗来纳州到南非都是如此。
They have to deal with white fear.
他们必须应对白人恐惧。
Harold Washington.
哈罗德·华盛顿。
We have 670,000 Black registered voters in this city.
这个城市有 670,000 名黑人登记选民。
When you get right down to it, the votes are here.
当你认真对待它时，投票就在这里。
They're here.
他们来了。
They're here.
他们来了。
And every group-- and I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
每个团体——我之前已经说过了，我还会再说一遍。
And the press takes it and runs out in left field with it.
媒体接过球并带着球跑到左外野。
Every group that gets our percentage of the population, they don't go around begging.
每一个获得我们人口比例的群体，他们都不会四处乞讨。
They don't go around explaining.
他们不会四处解释。
They don't have any excuses to make.
他们没有任何借口可找。
They just move on in and take one of their own and put them in office.
他们只是继续前进并任命自己的一位并让他们就任。
That's what we should do.
这就是我们应该做的。
That's what democracy is all about.
这就是民主的意义所在。
The problem is when your opponents don't see your election as just the normal workings of democracy.
问题是当你的对手不认为你的选举只是民主的正常运作时。
How Harold Washington tried to rise above their fear after he squeaked out a narrow victory in the general election and took office, it's in a minute, when our program continues.
哈罗德·华盛顿在大选中以微弱优势获胜并就职后，如何试图摆脱他们的恐惧，稍后我们的节目将继续。
This American Life.
这美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
If you're just tuning in today, what we're doing is that in this moment, when a Democratic socialist, a Muslim candidate, Zohran Mamdani, stands poised to become the next mayor of New York, sending the Democratic Party into a kind of identity crisis as he does it, we're rerunning this show that we first broadcast back in 1997 about another big city mayor who forced the Democrats to re-examine what the party was all about and pick sides, Harold Washington, Chicago's first Black mayor, who took the mayor's office in 1983 and died just four years later, just a few months into his second term.
如果你今天收看节目，我们正在做的是，此时此刻，当民主社会主义者、穆斯林候选人佐赫兰·马姆达尼 (Zohran Mamdani) 准备成为纽约下一任市长，并让民主党陷入一种身份危机时，我们正在重播这个节目，我们早在 1997 年就首次播出过这一节目，内容是关于另一位大城市市长，他迫使民主党重新审视该党的宗旨并选边站队，哈罗德·华盛顿 (Harold Washington)，芝加哥第一位黑人市长，于 1983 年就任市长，四年后去世，也就是他第二个任期才几个月。
We rejoin that old episode now.
我们现在重新加入那个旧情节。
So in Chicago and most American big cities, the way it used to work-- and I say "used to" with some reservations.
因此，在芝加哥和大多数美国大城市，它过去的运作方式——我带着一些保留地说“过去”。
You could argue that a version of this still exists lots of places.
你可能会说这个版本仍然存在于很多地方。
But the way it used to work was that when Irish-Americans took the mayor's office or Italian-Americans or Polish-Americans, they channeled contracts and patronage jobs and other municipal goodies to their own communities.
但过去的运作方式是，当爱尔兰裔美国人、意大利裔美国人或波兰裔美国人担任市长职位时，他们将合同、赞助工作和其他市政福利输送到自己的社区。
Lu Palmer was one of the people at the center of the movement to elect a Black mayor in Chicago.
卢·帕尔默是芝加哥选举黑人市长运动的核心人物之一。
He convened the early organizational meetings in his basement.
他在地下室召开了早期的组织会议。
It is hard to imagine that Harold Washington would have ever come to office without him.
很难想象如果没有他，哈罗德华盛顿会上任。
And he was disappointed by Harold.
他对哈罗德感到失望。
I don't know, but he never became what I would consider the Black mayor.
我不知道，但他从未成为我心目中的黑人市长。
Black people wanted something that was so simple-- fairness.
黑人想要的东西非常简单——公平。
And I used to get upset with Harold after he became elected because Harold was too fair.
哈罗德当选后我常常对他感到不满，因为哈罗德太公平了。
In fact, he would say in his speeches, I'm going to be fair.
事实上，他会在演讲中说，我会公平地对待。
I'm going to be more than fair.
我会更加公平。
No one, but no one in this city, no matter where they live or how they live, is free from the fairness of our administration.
没有人，但这座城市里的任何人，无论他们住在哪里或如何生活，都无法摆脱我们政府的公平性。
We'll find you and be fair to you wherever you are.
无论您身在何处，我们都会找到您并公平对待您。
And I used to cringe-- Harold Washington But I need your help.
我曾经感到畏缩——哈罗德·华盛顿 但我需要你的帮助。
--when he would say, I'm not only going to be fair, but I'm going to be fairer than fair.
——当他说，我不仅会公平，而且我会比公平更公平。
Well, come on.
好吧，来吧。
You know, you don't have to go overboard.
你知道，你不必太过分。
And Harold did.
哈罗德做到了。
Those of us who are considered radicals, we simply believe that since Daleys, the Daleys, Byrne and all the rest of the white mayors had always put white people first, without any question, without any apology.
我们这些被认为是激进分子的人，我们只是相信，自从戴利家族、戴利家族、伯恩和所有其他白人市长一直把白人放在第一位，毫无疑问，没有任何道歉。
We said that Harold got to put Black people first.
我们说过哈罗德必须把黑人放在第一位。
And that's what we wanted.
这就是我们想要的。
I'm not sure we wanted to be to white people what Daley was to Black people.
我不确定我们想成为白人的戴利是黑人。
That is, he was just ridiculous.
也就是说，他简直就是可笑。
But people wanted to see the opportunity to have our community thrive like other communities.
但人们希望看到有机会让我们的社区像其他社区一样蓬勃发展。
It wasn't just Black nationalists like Lu Palmer who felt this way.
不仅仅是像卢·帕尔默这样的黑人民族主义者有这种感觉。
Old-time machine loyalists like Eugene Sawyer, who was the Black alderman that the white Democratic machine wanted to succeed Harold Washington as mayor, said the same thing.
像尤金·索耶（Eugene Sawyer）这样的旧机器忠诚者也说了同样的话，尤金·索耶是白人民主党机器希望接替哈罗德·华盛顿担任市长的黑人市议员。
And that was part of the thing, that I think we probably were too fair.
这就是事情的一部分，我认为我们可能太公平了。
I think Harold was too fair.
我认为哈罗德太公平了。
In what way?
以什么方式？
Eugene Sawyer A lot of people think he was too fair by giving a lot more and giving everybody the same thing.
尤金·索耶（Eugene Sawyer） 很多人认为他付出了更多，却给了每个人同样的东西，这太公平了。
And people didn't expect it.
而人们却没有想到。
A lot of Black folks think that he should have given your own people a little bit more.
许多黑人认为他应该给你们自己的人民多一点。
Well, a major problem with being a Black person in America--
嗯，作为美国黑人的一个主要问题是——
Reporter Monroe Anderson.
记者门罗·安德森。
Monroe Anderson --is you're in this trap.
门罗·安德森——你是不是落入了这个陷阱呢？
Because I mean-- and this is sort of our curse and our blessing because of this racial history, is that we have been complaining and pointing out all these inequities for a very long time.
因为我的意思是——由于这段种族历史，这是我们的诅咒和祝福，我们长期以来一直在抱怨和指出所有这些不平等现象。
And therefore, all these things that you have pointed out that have been an injustice to you, now that you're in power, you can't do because it'll be injustice to whites.
因此，你指出的所有这些事情对你来说都是不公正的，既然你掌权了，你就不能做，因为这对白人来说是不公正的。
And therefore, the rules have to be this great even, everything's fair and square.
所以，规则必须这么伟大，一切都是公平公正的。
People close to Harold Washington say that it was smart politics for him to be fairer than fair.
与哈罗德·华盛顿关系密切的人士表示，他的政治策略是比公平更公平。
After all, Black wards had been treated so unfairly in the past that simply giving them the same services that the rest of the city got would be a huge step forward.
毕竟，黑人区在过去受到了如此不公平的对待，只要为他们提供与城市其他地区相同的服务，就已经是向前迈出了一大步。
There's also the political stance he felt most comfortable with by disposition.
从性格上看，还有他觉得最舒服的政治立场。
And when Black politicians or community activists came to City Hall trying to get more for one neighborhood over another, he was so enormously popular in Black Chicago, where 85% of the Black electorate turned out to vote for him, and where everyone simply referred to him as Harold, that he could ignore the pressure.
当黑人政客或社区活动家来到市政厅试图为一个社区争取更多利益时，他在黑人芝加哥非常受欢迎，85％的黑人选民投票给他，每个人都简单地称他为哈罗德，他可以忽略压力。
Jacky Grimshaw was a staff person.
杰基·格里姆肖（Jacky Grimshaw）是一名工作人员。
I think there is a difference between the Black population and the Black politicians.
我认为黑人人口和黑人政客之间存在差异。
I think on the part of the Black politicians, it was definitely "it's our turn." And I had to deal with some of these folks.
我认为对于黑人政客来说，这绝对是“轮到我们了”。我不得不和其中一些人打交道。
I mean, they'd come in, and they'd want 10 jobs and crap like that.
我的意思是，他们进来了，他们想要 10 份工作和诸如此类的废话。
Hey, [CHUCKLES] there ain't 10 jobs.
嘿，[笑] 没有 10 个工作机会。
But I think on the part of the people, I mean, they were into fairness.
但我认为，就人们而言，我的意思是，他们追求公平。
I mean, I think the fairness thing played with them, you know?
我的意思是，我认为公平对他们来说很重要，你知道吗？
I mean, they were proud of Harold.
我的意思是，他们为哈罗德感到骄傲。
They supported him, what he was doing.
他们支持他，支持他所做的事情。
Privately, Harold Washington talked about the danger of doing away with the old patronage system, how it could make the first Black mayor weaker than any of his white predecessors.
哈罗德·华盛顿私下里谈到了废除旧的赞助制度的危险，以及它如何使第一位黑人市长比他的任何一位白人前任都弱。
But publicly, for all intents and purposes, patronage was over.
但在公开场合，无论出于何种意图和目的，赞助已经结束了。
It's gone?
消失了吗？
It's gone.
它消失了。
And in the words of Cornell Davis, they said he wasn't dead.
用康奈尔·戴维斯的话来说，他们说他没有死。
So I went to his grave, and I walked around that grave.
于是我去了他的坟墓，并绕着坟墓走了一圈。
And I stomped on that grave.
我踩在了那个坟墓上。
And I jumped up and down.
我又跳又跳。
And I called out, patronage, patronage, are you alive?
我大声喊道，赞助，赞助，你还活着吗？
And patronage didn't answer.
赞助人没有回答。
It is dead, dead, dead.
它死了，死了，死了。
Washington attacked the machine.
华盛顿攻击了这台机器。
The machine struck back.
机器反击了。
From the first day of Washington's first city council meeting, 29 aldermen, all of them white, the old Democratic machine, teamed up to oppose him.
从华盛顿第一次市议会会议的第一天起，29名市议员，全是白人，这个民主党的老机器，就联合起来反对他。
For the first time in memory, a Chicago mayor did not control City Hall.
记忆中，芝加哥市长第一次没有控制市政厅。
For the first time in memory, clout-- that's what we call it in Chicago-- clout, sheer bullying force that was at the heart of Chicago politics, clout was no longer in the mayor's control.
记忆中第一次，影响力——这就是我们在芝加哥所说的——影响力，纯粹的欺凌力量，是芝加哥政治的核心，影响力不再由市长控制。
It was the machine's 29 votes to Harold's 21 votes.
这是机器的 29 票对哈罗德的 21 票。
The 29 not only blocked his appointments, it never brought them up for consideration.
29不仅阻止了他的任命，而且从未将其提请考虑。
It blocked most of his legislative initiatives and dedicated enormous energy to looking for ways to embarrass him and thwart him.
它阻止了他的大部分立法举措，并投入大量精力寻找让他难堪和挫败他的方法。
It was mayhem, a battle so divisive and chaotic that it sustained the animosity and suspicion between Black Chicago and white Chicago for years.
这是一场混乱的战斗，这场战斗如此分裂和混乱，以至于黑人芝加哥和白人芝加哥之间的敌意和猜疑持续了多年。
It came to be known locally as "Council Wars," after a local African-American comic named Aaron Freeman began staging moments in local politics as scenes from the Star Wars trilogy.
在当地一位名叫亚伦·弗里曼 (Aaron Freeman) 的非裔美国喜剧演员开始将《星球大战》三部曲中的场景搬上当地政治舞台后，这场战争在当地被称为“议会战争”(Council Wars)。
Harold appeared as Luke Skytalker, leader of the rebellion, constantly spouting off long, difficult words.
哈罗德以卢克·天语者的身份出现，他是叛军的领袖，不断地吐出长而难懂的话语。
Harold's main political opponent, Ed Vrdolyak, the alderman who led the 29, also got a big part.
哈罗德的主要政治对手、领导29人党的市议员埃德·沃多利亚克(Ed Vrdolyak)也获得了很大一部分。
What are you doing in my office, Lord Darth Vrdolyak?
达斯·弗多利亚克勋爵，你在我的办公室里做什么？
[AMPLIFIED BREATHING] [APPLAUSE, CHEERING]
[呼吸放大] [掌声、欢呼]
I wish to discuss committee assignments for the new council.
我想讨论新理事会的委员会任务。
[AMPLIFIED BREATHING]
[放大呼吸]
[APPLAUSE, CHEERING] Luke Skytalker I don't have to talk to you.
[掌声、欢呼]卢克·天语者 我不需要和你说话。
I'm the mayor.
我是市长。
I can do whatever I want.
我可以做任何我想做的事。
I can-- [GASPING, SCREAMING]
我可以——[喘气，尖叫]
[AMPLIFIED BREATHING] [AUDIENCE LAUGHTER]
[呼吸放大] [观众笑声]
I find your lack of respect disturbing.
我发现你缺乏尊重令人不安。
It is obvious you do not know the power of the clout.
显然你不知道影响力的力量。
It has served all of the mayors before you.
它已经为您之前的所有市长服务过。
It can bring you great wealth and power, or it can destroy you as easily.
它可以给你带来巨大的财富和权力，也可以轻易地摧毁你。
The choice is yours.
选择权在你。
You do not consternate me, Vrdolyak.
你没有让我惊愕，Vrdolyak。
Take this parliamentary maneuver!
采取这次议会行动！
[IMITATES LASER MISSILE]
【模仿激光导弹】
Well done, Mayor.
干得好，市长。
But I counter with this-- negotiated majority.
但我反对这一点——协商多数。
[IMITATES LASER MISSILE]
【模仿激光导弹】
Then I'll file a suit in court!
那我就去法院起诉吧！
[IMITATES LASER MISSILE]
【模仿激光导弹】
[SCREAMS] You may have prevailed at this juncture, Vrdolyak, but I will assiduously pursue your disestablishment.
[尖叫] Vrdolyak，你可能在这个节骨眼上占了上风，但我会孜孜不倦地追寻你的瓦解。
[AMPLIFIED BREATHING] Perhaps, Mayor.
[呼吸放大] 也许吧，市长。
But to do so, you must use the dark side of the clout.
但要做到这一点，你必须利用影响力的阴暗面。
You must make deals and compromises.
你必须做出交易和妥协。
Never!
绝不！
Darth Vrdolyak Yes, Mayor.
达斯·弗多利亚克 是的，市长。
To defeat me, you must become me.
要想打败我，你就必须成为我。
Look at my face, Skytalker, for I am your mentor!
看看我的脸，天语者，因为我是你的导师！
Ira Glass Even under these adverse conditions, Washington did manage to pass budgets and get some things done.
艾拉·格拉斯 即使在这些不利的条件下，华盛顿仍然设法通过了预算并完成了一些事情。
Black wards finally got the same street repair and garbage pickup as all the other wards.
黑人病区终于得到了与其他病区相同的街道维修和垃圾收集服务。
Jacky Grimshaw describes one scheme Washington came up with to do some improvements around the city, designed to be, of course, fairer than fair, to give every ward the same benefits.
杰基·格里姆肖（Jacky Grimshaw）描述了华盛顿为在城市周围进行一些改进而提出的一项计划，当然，该计划的目的是更加公平，为每个选区提供相同的福利。
But the 29, of course, opposed it.
但29人当然反对。
And Washington needed their approval because to pay for it, he wanted to issue a city bond.
华盛顿需要他们的批准，因为为了支付费用，他想发行城市债券。
So every ward was to get, I think it was 10 miles of street resurfacing and alleys, a certain number of alleys done, and street lighting.
所以每个区都要重新铺设 10 英里的街道和小巷，完成一定数量的小巷，并安装街道照明。
And so he had all of these on the bond issue, and they were refusing to pass it.
因此，他在债券发行上拥有了所有这些，但他们拒绝通过。
So he put all of the reporters on the bus, and he would go around to these various wards.
于是他把所有的记者都送上车，然后他就去各个病房转转。
And we went out to Mount Greenwood, another area of the city that did not welcome Blacks at the time, to say, your alderman is refusing to support this bond issue that I want to use to give you real streets.
我们去了格林伍德山，这是该市另一个当时不欢迎黑人的地区，我们说，你们的市议员拒绝支持我想用它来给你们提供真正街道的债券发行。
And if you want it, you better tell your alderman to vote for it.
如果你想要它，你最好告诉你的市议员投票支持它。
And so by the time he got through doing this, the folks in the communities were pretty much outraged.
所以当他完成这件事时，社区里的人们非常愤怒。
Black mayor or not, they wanted their streets.
无论是否是黑人市长，他们都想要自己的街道。
They wanted their sewers.
他们想要他们的下水道。
They wanted their vaulted sidewalks repaired and so forth.
他们希望修复拱形人行道等等。
What happens to American politics when one of the politicians happens to be Black?
当其中一位政客碰巧是黑人时，美国政治会发生什么？
In this case, what happened was that everything in city politics was seen through the prism of race, even though often it had nothing to do with race.
在这种情况下，发生的事情是，城市政治中的一切都是通过种族的棱镜来看待的，尽管它通常与种族无关。
Often, it had more to do with reform.
通常，它更多地与改革有关。
Gary Rivlin is the author of a very evenhanded history of Washington's years, Fire on the Prairie.
加里·里夫林（Gary Rivlin）是一部非常公正地记录华盛顿岁月的历史著作《草原之火》的作者。
You know, everyone wants to understand Harold Washington as the first Black mayor.
你知道，每个人都想了解哈罗德华盛顿作为第一位黑人市长。
And it's true, he was the first Black mayor, and that was a very significant thing.
确实，他是第一位黑人市长，这是一件非常重要的事情。
But he was also the mayor who beat the Chicago political machine.
但他也是击败芝加哥政治机器的市长。
He was the first reformer in 30 years to take on the machine.
他是 30 年来第一位接受这台机器的改革者。
And he did it more successfully than anyone else before him, purely on a reform point of view.
纯粹从改革的角度来看，他比他之前的任何人都做得更成功。
And so he was a different kind of politician, but no one could ever see beyond his race.
因此，他是一位不同类型的政治家，但没有人能够超越他的种族。
In fact, there was a political cartoon at the time I loved.
事实上，当时我很喜欢一部政治漫画。
And it was an editor asking a reporter covering the election, so anything change?
这是一名编辑要求一名记者报道选举，那么有什么变化吗？
Anything new?
有什么新的吗？
And the reporter answered, no, he's still white, and he's still Black.
记者回答说，不，他仍然是白人，而且他仍然是黑人。
And really, it was never-- [LAUGHS] it really wasn't that much more sophisticated than that cartoon indicated.
真的，它从来没有——[笑]它真的没有那幅漫画所暗示的那么复杂。
You pick up a local paper, and these guys just wax so eloquently.
你拿起一份当地报纸，这些家伙就滔滔不绝地滔滔不绝。
They don't know what they're talking about.
他们不知道自己在说什么。
Don't have the slightest idea about the phenomena.
对这些现象一无所知。
Don't understand the history.
不懂历史。
Don't understand the mindset.
不明白心态。
Don't understand what push people.
不明白是什么在推动人们。
All they say is, gee, Black folks must be angry.
他们只说，哎呀，黑人一定很生气。
[LAUGHTER] Gee, Black folks voted for Black folks.
[笑声] 哎呀，黑人投票给了黑人。
They must hate white folks.
他们一定讨厌白人。
That ain't got nothing to do with nothing!
这跟什么都没有关系啊！
Nothing!
没有什么！
Crazy stuff.
疯狂的东西。
But that's what you read around here in Chicago.
但这就是你在芝加哥读到的内容。
That's what I had to put up with every day when I look in the reporters' eyes.
这就是我每天看着记者的眼睛时必须忍受的。
All that silly business, you know?
所有这些愚蠢的事情，你知道吗？
How many white folks did you convert today, Harold?
哈罗德，你今天改变了多少白人的信仰？
[LAUGHS] Wow!
[笑]哇！
[APPLAUSE] Wow!
[鼓掌]哇！
And the answer is, more than you did, boy.
答案是，比你做的更多，孩子。
Because I do my job, irregardless of race, color, creed, or sex.
因为我做我的工作，无论种族、肤色、信仰或性别。
Because everything he did, even things that were more about reform than about race, was seen through the lens of race.
因为他所做的一切，甚至是更多关于改革而不是种族的事情，都是通过种族的视角来看待的。
It gave Washington's opponents a tool that they could use against him, which they did.
它为华盛顿的对手提供了一个可以用来对付他的工具，他们也确实这么做了。
A typical example-- some crime rates went up between 1985 and '86, even though, overall, crime was lower under Washington than under his white predecessor.
一个典型的例子是，1985 年至 86 年间，一些犯罪率有所上升，尽管总体而言，华盛顿治下的犯罪率低于他的白人前任治下。
But his opponents tried to make the case that this proved the Black mayor did not care about crime.
但他的对手试图证明这证明黑人市长并不关心犯罪。
Hate literature had said that he would do nothing about crime because most crime is caused by Blacks.
仇恨文学曾说过，他不会对犯罪采取任何行动，因为大多数犯罪都是由黑人造成的。
So they were using this statistical bump between '85 and '86 to prove what the hate literature was saying, that the Black mayor is going to be indifferent to crime.
因此，他们利用 85 年和 86 年之间的统计数据差异来证明仇恨文献所说的内容，即黑人市长将对犯罪漠不关心。
See, that's playing the race card and playing it in a dirty way.
你看，这就是打种族牌，而且是用肮脏的方式打。
It's a way of distorting statistics to play to racial fears out there.
这是歪曲统计数据以迎合种族恐惧的一种方式。
So did Washington talk about race?
那么华盛顿谈过种族问题吗？
Did he talk about the Chicago political machine always being biased against the Black community?
他是否谈到芝加哥政治机器总是对黑人社区存在偏见？
Sure.
当然。
Is that playing the race card?
这是打比赛牌吗？
Sure, but I also happen to think it's true, what he was saying, whereas what I think the opposition was doing much more of was playing the race card and playing it in a dirty way, trying to tweak and abuse statistics any way they could to prove their point and play into the worst fears of the white community.
当然，但我也碰巧认为他所说的是真的，而我认为反对派做的更多的是打种族牌，并且以肮脏的方式打牌，试图以任何方式调整和滥用统计数据来证明自己的观点，并激起白人社区最恐惧的情绪。
I never saw Washington playing into the worst fears of the Black community.
我从未见过华盛顿激起黑人社区最恐惧的情绪。
In fact, his rhetoric was, I'm going to be fairer than fair.
事实上，他的言辞是，我会比公平更公平。
The fact is, by the time he died, just a few months into his second term of office, Harold Washington had put together a working majority on the council.
事实上，哈罗德·华盛顿去世时，也就是他第二任任期仅几个月，他就已经在委员会中占据了工作多数席位。
Not many more whites voted for him in his second election than in his first.
在他的第二次选举中投票给他的白人并不比第一次选举多多少。
But every political observer in Chicago says that he was making headway.
但芝加哥的每一位政治观察家都说他正在取得进展。
Patrick O'Connor was one of the 29 aldermen who opposed Washington, who was one of the few swing votes who sometimes sided with the mayor.
帕特里克·奥康纳是反对华盛顿的 29 名市议员之一，他也是少数有时站在市长一边的摇摆选票之一。
We invited him up to a picnic in our ward.
我们邀请他来我们病房野餐。
And he showed up at our picnic.
他出现在我们的野餐会上。
And he got a great reception.
他受到了热烈的欢迎。
People that really didn't vote for him, and probably wouldn't vote for him the next time, respected the fact that he came out there, that he wanted to say hello, that he wanted to participate.
那些真正没有投票给他的人，可能下次也不会投票给他的人，尊重他站出来、他想打招呼、他想参与的事实。
And bear in mind that I was voting consistently with a bloc that was voting against him.
请记住，我一直在投票反对他的阵营。
And he came out, and we spent the day, and it was fine.
他出来了，我们度过了一天，一切都很好。
I remember one time we were both invited to a place that neither of us were particularly popular in the ward.
我记得有一次我们都被邀请去一个在病房里我们都不太受欢迎的地方。
And so I got a call from his office-- and this is, again, at a time when there was a council war going on-- asking was I going to this festival or whatever it was.
所以我接到了他办公室的电话——这又是在议会战争正在进行的时候——问我是否要去参加这个节日或其他什么活动。
And if I was, would I meet the mayor on a corner in our ward and go in there together with him?
如果是的话，我会在我们区的一个角落遇见市长并和他一起进去吗？
And I told the guy, no, I'm not meeting him on the corner.
我告诉那个人，不，我不会在街角遇见他。
I said, if he wants me to go, he's got to pick me up at my house.
我说，如果他要我走，就得去我家接我。
So the mayor pulls up to the front of my house.
于是市长把车停在我家门前。
He comes in.
他进来了。
We have-- a glass of wine, he had, and I had a beer.
我们喝了一杯酒，他喝了，我喝了一杯啤酒。
We sat around for a couple of minutes, and he met my family.
我们坐了几分钟，他见到了我的家人。
And he looks in my dining room.
他看着我的餐厅。
We didn't have any dining room furniture at the time.
当时我们没有任何餐厅家具。
The kids were all young, and we'd just moved into the house.
孩子们还小，我们刚刚搬进房子。
So he says, where's your dining room furniture?
所以他说，你餐厅的家具在哪里？
My wife says, you don't pay him enough money.
我妻子说，你付给他的钱不够多。
And Harold goes, I knew this cheese was going to cost me something.
哈罗德说，我知道这块奶酪会让我付出一些代价。
I mean, and he was just that quick.
我的意思是，他就是这么快。
He was really very, very good.
他真的非常非常好。
But my point is, is that we got in the car, we went to this festival, and by the time he left, he had people dancing with him.
但我的观点是，我们上了车，我们去了这个节日，当他离开时，有人和他一起跳舞。
He went over.
他走了过去。
He was talking with folks.
他正在和人们交谈。
By the time he left, it might not have changed the mind of everybody in there that he was OK, but he had made a significant impact.
当他离开时，那里的每个人都认为他没事，但他已经产生了重大影响。
And he understood, by keeping that schedule and going through areas where he was not expected to show up or would traditionally not be the most welcome person, that he was winning percentages of people.
他明白，通过遵守这个时间表，并经过那些他预计不会出现或传统上不受欢迎的地区，他赢得了一定比例的人。
And that's all he had to do.
这就是他所要做的一切。
Vernon Jarrett says that if Washington had lived, he would have done a lot to ease the strains of modern Chicago apartheid.
弗农·贾勒特说，如果华盛顿还活着，他会做很多事情来缓解现代芝加哥种族隔离的压力。
Harold was going to win over a big chunk of the white population.
哈罗德将赢得很大一部分白人的支持。
And I don't mean Gold Coast liberals.
我指的不是黄金海岸自由主义者。
They were beginning to like this guy.
他们开始喜欢这个家伙了。
And they could see something in him that represented them.
他们可以在他身上看到一些代表他们的东西。
He was chubby, warm, friendly.
他胖乎乎的，热情的，友善的。
And not only that, he was going into some lower class white neighborhoods, having the streets paved for the first time.
不仅如此，他还进入了一些低层白人社区，第一次铺设了街道。
And they were slowly beginning to lose their fear.
他们慢慢地开始失去恐惧。
Act Two, The Present and the Future.
第二幕，现在与未来。
Today's rerun, first broadcast in 1997, 10 years after Harold Washington's death, continues.
今天的重播于 1997 年首次播出，也就是哈罗德·华盛顿去世 10 年后，仍在继续。
There are ways, I think, that the mayor has changed the city forever, but they are not things you can necessarily measure by doing head counts and using a lot of numbers.
我认为，市长通过某些方式永远改变了这座城市，但这些并不是你可以通过统计人数和使用大量数字来衡量的。
Laura Washington, Harold's former press secretary, now editor at a sort of muckraking publication called The Chicago Reporter.
劳拉·华盛顿（Laura Washington）是哈罗德的前新闻秘书，现在是一家名为《芝加哥报道》的揭露黑幕的刊物的编辑。
I think he opened up the city in ways that it will never be closed again.
我认为他以一种永远不会再关闭的方式开放了这座城市。
If you look at the numbers, you'll still see a lot of inequity.
如果你看一下数字，你仍然会看到很多不平等现象。
You'll still see neighborhoods that are poorer, probably poorer than they were 15, 20 years ago.
你仍然会看到更穷的社区，可能比 15、20 年前更穷。
You'll see neighborhoods that still probably don't get their fair share of city services.
您会看到一些社区可能仍然没有获得公平的城市服务。
But you'll see, I think, a dramatic difference in the attitude that public officials and policymakers have to equity in the city.
但我认为，你会发现政府官员和政策制定者对城市公平的态度存在巨大差异。
10 years after Harold Washington's death, people who follow politics in Chicago say that, if nothing else, current mayor, Richard M.
哈罗德·华盛顿去世 10 年后，关注芝加哥政治的人士表示，如果不出意外的话，现任市长理查德·M·华盛顿 (Richard M.
Daley, son of Richard J., has to worry about making Black voters angry.
理查德·J. 的儿子戴利不得不担心会让黑人选民生气。
He's been careful to have Black press secretaries and kept a number of appointees from the Black administration before him.
他在任命黑人新闻秘书方面一直很谨慎，并在他之前保留了一些黑人政府任命的官员。
He's done nothing so far to infuriate Black Chicago the way his white predecessors regularly did.
到目前为止，他还没有像他的白人前任那样激怒芝加哥黑人。
City services are distributed more fairly, even today, though there's been a bit of backsliding here and there.
即使在今天，城市服务的分配也更加公平，尽管到处都有一些倒退。
And Richard Daley's latest proposed bond issue follows the model of the Washington years.
理查德·戴利(Richard Daley)最新提议的债券发行遵循了华盛顿时代的模式。
It gives all of Chicago's wards equal benefits, something that was unheard of in the years before Washington.
它为芝加哥的所有选区提供了平等的福利，这在华盛顿之前的几年里是闻所未闻的。
OK, so this is Ira in 2025 again.
好吧，这又是 2025 年的 Ira。
Hi.
你好。
At the end of Harold Washington's first term, 88% of white voters still voted against him.
哈罗德·华盛顿第一任期结束时，88%的白人选民仍然投票反对他。
And 10 years after his death, when we first broadcast the program that you're listening to right now, we sent a reporter, Rachel Howard, to the 39th Ward, out near O'Hare Airport, a mostly white ward that voted against Washington, to see if times had changed, to see if they would consider voting for a Black mayor.
在他去世十年后，当我们第一次播放你们现在正在收听的节目时，我们派了一位记者雷切尔·霍华德到奥黑尔机场附近的第 39 选区，这是一个投票反对华盛顿的白人占多数的选区，看看时代是否发生了变化，看看他们是否会考虑投票给黑人市长。
Short answer, no. Longer answer, she talked to people in a bar who got totally riled up as soon as she mentioned Harold Washington, called him the N-word.
简短的回答，不。更长的答案是，她在酒吧里与人们交谈，当她提到哈罗德·华盛顿时，他们就完全愤怒了，称他为“N”字。
They would start ranting about how he should have stayed on the South Side, how he wasn't their mayor.
他们会开始抱怨他应该留在南区，他不是他们的市长。
10 years is not a very long time.
10年并不是很长的时间。
Most people I spoke with felt this way.
与我交谈的大多数人都有这种感觉。
Some even said they were scared when Harold was elected.
有些人甚至说，当哈罗德当选时，他们感到害怕。
And at another bar up the street, a guy explained what everyone had been afraid of.
在街上的另一家酒吧，一个人解释了每个人都害怕的事情。
We thought, that's it, we're done.
我们想，就这样，我们完成了。
And that was a big thing.
这是一件大事。
I mean, North Side's going to be a South Side now.
我的意思是，北区现在将成为南区。
So the North Side and South Side are very segregated.
所以北区和南区是非常隔离的。
Put it this way.
这样说吧。
He thought that the Black people were going to take over the city.
他认为黑人将接管这座城市。
No, no, not that.
不，不，不是那样。
Those slums be slums.
那些贫民窟就是贫民窟。
You worry about slums.
你担心贫民窟。
OK, so that was 1997.
好吧，那是 1997 年。
But then we went back, 10 years after that, 2007.
但后来我们又回到了 10 年后的 2007 年。
And I have to say, it was interesting, the change.
我不得不说，这种变化很有趣。
Reporter Rob Wildeboar went to a bunch of the wards where Harold Washington was not welcome back in the day-- the 10th, the 11th, the 23rd wards.
记者罗布·维尔德博尔 (Rob Wildeboar) 走访了一些当时不欢迎哈罗德·华盛顿回来的病房——第 10 病房、第 11 病房、第 23 病房。
And he talked to 50 people, and all but three of them said they would be willing to vote for a Black mayor.
他与 50 人交谈，除了三人之外，所有人都表示愿意投票给黑人市长。
Now, to be clear, people were openly racist, OK?
现在，需要澄清的是，人们是公开的种族主义者，好吗？
Unapologetic about it, like this guy, Pete.
对此毫无歉意，就像皮特这个人一样。
We bought a house here in Hegewisch.
我们在Hegewisch买了房子。
And what happened?
发生了什么？
Blacks moved in.
黑人搬进来了。
Taking over the parks, taking over the schools, taking over everything.
接管公园，接管学校，接管一切。
Go on a holiday to Wolf Lake.
去狼湖度假。
Well, who's over there?
嗯，谁在那儿？
They're all barbecuing over there.
他们都在那边烧烤。
We can't even go to our own parks.
我们甚至不能去我们自己的公园。
We got nothing.
我们什么也没得到。
But then the same guy said that he wished that a Black alderwoman, Toni Preckwinkle, would run for mayor.
但随后同一个人表示，他希望黑人女议员托尼·普雷克温克尔 (Toni Preckwinkle) 竞选市长。
He'd vote for her, he said.
他说他会投票给她。
She did a great job cleaning up Hyde Park.
她在清理海德公园方面做得很好。
Or there was a woman named Mary Kay, who lived in the 23rd Ward by Midway Airport, the neighborhood where Washington got the lowest vote total in the city in 1983, less than 1%, just 199 votes.
还有一位名叫玫琳凯的女士，住在中途机场附近的第23区，1983年华盛顿在这个街区获得的选票总数是全市最低的，不到1%，只有199票。
Mary Kay was not one of the 199.
玫琳凯不是 199 人之一。
And she told our reporter, Rob, things are just different now.
她告诉我们的记者罗布，现在情况不同了。
Back then, for me, it was white or Black.
那时，对我来说，它是白色或黑色。
[LAUGHS] You know?
[笑]你知道吗？
I was prejudiced back then, probably, more so than I am now.
我当时的偏见可能比现在还要严重。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
[LAUGHS] A little bit, you know?
[笑]一点点，你知道吗？
Don't turn my back on them, but yeah.
不要拒绝他们，但是是的。
[LAUGHS] No, I mean, that was 20 years ago.
[笑]不，我是说，那是 20 年前的事了。
I don't have that fear these days.
这些天我没有那种恐惧了。
Now I accept you, Black or white, you know?
现在我接受你，无论黑人还是白人，你知道吗？
And Washington didn't do bad.
华盛顿并没有做坏事。
I mean, he was a decent mayor.
我的意思是，他是一位体面的市长。
So what's changed?
那么发生了什么变化呢？
Mary Kay Everything.
玫琳凯一切。
I mean, I've changed.
我是说，我变了。
They've changed, you know.
他们已经改变了，你知道。
The Black people are more educated.
黑人受教育程度更高。
They're standing on something these days.
这些天他们站在某件事上。
They've come a long way in this world.
他们在这个世界上已经走了很长一段路。
And they deserve-- they worked hard.
他们值得——他们努力工作。
I mean, you see it in the stores, you know?
我的意思是，你在商店里看到它，你知道吗？
They're doing just as good as that.
他们做得同样好。
They're well dressed.
他们穿得很好。
They're clean.
他们很干净。
They're not the ghetto.
他们不是贫民窟。
And they want what we got, what we've always had.
他们想要我们拥有的、我们一直拥有的东西。
Every group-- and if the press is listening, I want them to hear this.
每个群体——如果媒体正在倾听，我希望他们听到这一点。
They didn't hear it when I ran for office.
当我竞选公职时他们没有听到。
I'll say it again.
我再说一遍。
Every group, when it gets population ascendancy, as night follows day, decide, without malice to anybody, not anger to anybody, that it is their turn!
每个群体，当它获得人口优势时，就像黑夜接着白天一样，决定，不对任何人怀有恶意，也不对任何人生气，轮到他们了！
Period.
时期。
That's all.
就这样。
[APPLAUSE] Ain't nothing wrong with that!
[鼓掌]这没有什么问题！
And I made that statement two months ago, and they said it was racist.
我两个月前发表了这样的声明，他们说这是种族主义。
But they left out most of the statement, which the Irish do it, the Polish do it, the Jews do it, and every intelligent group on Earth, which is every group, does it.
但他们遗漏了大部分声明，爱尔兰人这样做，波兰人这样做，犹太人这样做，地球上每个聪明的群体，也就是每个群体，都这样做。
And we do it.
我们做到了。
And we should do it.
我们应该这样做。
And we do it in a positive sense, not in a negative sense.
我们是从积极的角度来做这件事，而不是消极的角度。
You're not anti-Irish because you're pro-Black.
你并不反爱尔兰，因为你支持黑人。
You're not anti-Black because you're pro-Jewish.
你并不反黑人，因为你支持犹太人。
I mean, that doesn't follow.
我的意思是，这并不成立。
You just happen to be pro.
你只是碰巧是职业选手。
And as long as you're not-- as long as you are not anti, as long as you are not anti, your pro-ism is acceptable.
只要你不——只要你不反对，只要你不反对，你的支持主义就是可以接受的。
So it's just that simple.
就这么简单。
Now, I hope the press gets it right this once.
现在，我希望媒体这次能做对。
So obviously, that's Harold.
很明显，那就是哈罗德。
And then before that was tape from 2007, voters speaking 20 years after he died.
在此之前还有 2007 年的录音，选民们在他去世 20 年后发表讲话。
2007, that same year, you may remember, there was another Black Chicagoan in politics capturing people's attention.
2007年，你可能还记得，同一年，政坛上又有一位芝加哥黑人引起了人们的关注。
Barack Obama was running for president.
巴拉克·奥巴马正在竞选总统。
Some of you may know that I originally moved to Chicago in part because of the inspiration of Mayor Washington's campaign.
你们中有些人可能知道，我最初搬到芝加哥的部分原因是受到华盛顿市长竞选活动的启发。
And for those of you who recall that era and recall Chicago at that time, it's hard to forget the sense of possibility that he sparked in people.
对于那些回忆起那个时代并回忆起当时芝加哥的人来说，很难忘记他在人们心中激发的可能性感。
When Barack Obama ran for Senate, and later, for president, one of his advisors was David Axelrod, a man who was uniquely positioned to comment on how racial politics have changed in Chicago since Harold's time, because he was also a political advisor to Harold Washington, back during Harold's second run for mayor.
当巴拉克·奥巴马竞选参议员以及后来竞选总统时，他的顾问之一是大卫·阿克塞尔罗德。大卫·阿克塞尔罗德具有独特的地位来评论自哈罗德时代以来芝加哥种族政治的变化，因为在哈罗德第二次竞选市长期间，他也是哈罗德·华盛顿的政治顾问。
Back in 2007, I reached Axelrod on his cell phone to talk about that.
早在 2007 年，我就通过阿克塞尔罗德的手机联系了他，讨论了此事。
It was during the Obama campaign.
那是在奥巴马竞选期间。
He was on a campaign bus in Iowa.
他当时正在爱荷华州的一辆竞选巴士上。
He told me back then that things had significantly changed in Chicago's white wards in the years since Harold's death.
当时他告诉我，哈罗德去世后的这些年里，芝加哥的白人病房发生了巨大的变化。
I remember that the night of the 2004 Democratic primary for the US Senate, when Barack Obama was nominated.
我记得 2004 年民主党美国参议院初选当晚，巴拉克·奥巴马 (Barack Obama) 获得提名。
And one of the things that I looked at that night was how he did on the northwest side of Chicago.
那天晚上我看到的一件事就是他在芝加哥西北侧的表现。
When Harold ran, he got 8% of the white vote in his first primary.
哈罗德竞选时，他在第一次初选中获得了 8% 的白人选票。
I think he got 20% in the re-election.
我认为他在连任中获得了20%的支持率。
And much of the determined resistance was on the northwest side of Chicago.
大部分坚决的抵抗都在芝加哥的西北侧。
And Obama carried all but one ward on the northwest side of Chicago.
奥巴马赢得了芝加哥西北区除一个选区外的所有选区。
He even carried the precinct in which St. Pascal's church sits.
他甚至占领了圣帕斯卡教堂所在的区域。
That was the church where Harold Washington and Walter Mondale campaigned in 1983 and met with really hostile resistance from the crowd.
1983 年，哈罗德·华盛顿 (Harold Washington) 和沃尔特·蒙代尔 (Walter Mondale) 就是在这座教堂进行竞选活动，并遭到了人群的真正敌对抵抗。
Obama carried that precinct.
奥巴马赢得了该选区。
And I said to Barack that night, I think Harold's smiling down on us tonight.
那天晚上我对巴拉克说，我认为哈罗德今晚正在对我们微笑。
When Obama got to the general election for senator, he won 70% of the vote or more in every white ward in the city.
当奥巴马参加参议员大选时，他在该市每个白人选区赢得了 70% 或更多的选票。
His results weren't far from that when he ran for president.
他的成绩与竞选总统时相差不远。
And years later, when Kamala Harris ran against Donald Trump in 2024, that mostly held.
几年后，当卡玛拉·哈里斯 (Kamala Harris) 在 2024 年与唐纳德·特朗普 (Donald Trump) 竞选时，这一点基本成立。
Most of those white wards went solidly for Harris, with 60% or 70% voting for her.
大多数白人选区都坚决支持哈里斯，有 60% 或 70% 的人投票给她。
Trump only won one Chicago ward out of 50.
特朗普只赢得了 50 个芝加哥选区中的一个。
When I asked the people who urged Harold Washington to run in the first place-- that's Lu Palmer and Timuel Black-- what the lessons of the Washington years are, they both said the same thing.
当我问那些最初敦促哈罗德·华盛顿参选的人——卢·帕尔默和蒂缪尔·布莱克——华盛顿岁月的教训是什么时，他们都说了同样的话。
They talked about how it was a mistake to think you could make the world change if you pinned your hopes on just one man.
他们谈到，如果你把希望寄托在一个人身上，你就能改变世界，这种想法是错误的。
After Harold died, the movement died, too.
哈罗德去世后，该运动也随之消亡。
And I'll tell you, a lot of people don't like to criticize Harold Washington-- I blame Harold for this.
我告诉你，很多人不喜欢批评哈罗德·华盛顿——我为此责备哈罗德。
What should have been happening, we should have anticipated either his demise or removal from office, and been organizing for that possibility.
本来应该发生的事情，我们应该预见到他的去世或被免职，并为这种可能性做好准备。
Harold was put on a pedestal.
哈罗德被推上神座。
And I think that was a major mistake.
我认为这是一个重大错误。
We lifted him to almost God status.
我们把他提升到近乎上帝的地位。
Barack Obama noticed the same problem.
巴拉克·奥巴马也注意到了同样的问题。
In fact, there's a passage in Dreams From My Father about this, when he writes about what Chicago was like immediately after Harold's death.
事实上，《父亲的梦想》中有一段关于这一点，当时他写了哈罗德死后芝加哥的情况。
The day before Thanksgiving, Harold Washington died.
感恩节前一天，哈罗德·华盛顿去世。
This is Obama, reading on the audiobook.
这是奥巴马，正在听有声读物。
It occurred without warning, sudden, simple, final, almost ridiculous in its ordinariness, the heart of an overweight man giving way.
它的发生毫无征兆，突然、简单、最终，平淡得几乎可笑，一个超重男人的心屈服了。
It rained that weekend, cold and steady.
那个周末下了雨，寒冷而持续。
Indoors and outside, people cried.
屋内屋外，人们都哭了。
By the time of the funeral, Washington loyalists had worked through the initial shock.
到葬礼举行时，华盛顿的支持者们已经从最初的震惊中恢复过来。
They began to meet, regroup, trying to decide on a strategy for maintaining control, trying to select Harold's rightful heir.
他们开始会面，重新集结，试图决定维持控制的策略，试图选择哈罗德的合法继承人。
But it was too late for that.
但为时已晚。
There was no political organization in place, no clearly defined principles to follow.
没有适当的政治组织，没有明确规定的原则可供遵循。
The entire of Black politics had centered on one man, who radiated like the sun.
整个黑人政治都以一个人为中心，他像太阳一样散发着光芒。
Now that he was gone, no one could agree on what that presence had meant.
现在他走了，没有人能就他的存在意味着什么达成一致。
I guess it's worth pointing out that this is what so many Democrats said when Barack Obama left office, and Donald Trump came to power, that Obama and his team didn't leave the Democratic Party in proper shape to face the battles ahead.
我想值得指出的是，当巴拉克·奥巴马(Barack Obama)卸任、唐纳德·特朗普(Donald Trump)上台时，许多民主党人都这么说，奥巴马和他的团队没有让民主党以适当的状态面对未来的战斗。
In 2017, after Donald Trump was elected for the first time, I checked again with David Axelrod.
2017年，唐纳德·特朗普首次当选后，我再次咨询了大卫·阿克塞尔罗德。
He told me that Harold might have been surprised that a Black man was elected president just two decades after Harold won his second term.
他告诉我，哈罗德可能会感到惊讶，在哈罗德赢得第二个任期仅仅二十年后，一名黑人就当选为总统。
But he said Harold would not have been surprised at the backlash, once that Black man got to the Oval Office.
但他表示，一旦黑人入主椭圆形办公室，哈罗德不会对这种强烈反对感到惊讶。
Well, today's program was originally produced back in 1997 by Alex Blumberg and myself, with Nancy Updike, Alix Spiegel, and Julie Snyder.
嗯，今天的节目最初是 1997 年由 Alex Blumberg 和我、Nancy Updike、Alix Spiegel 和 Julie Snyder 制作的。
Senior editor for the show was Paul Tough.
该节目的高级编辑是保罗·托夫（Paul Tough）。
Production help from Rachel Howard, Seth Lind, Bruce Wallace, BA Parker, Matt Tierney, Suzanne Gaber, Stowe Nelson, and Michael Comite.
Rachel Howard、Seth Lind、Bruce Wallace、BA Parker、Matt Tierney、Suzanne Gaber、Stowe Nelson 和 Michael Comite 为制作提供了帮助。
Since we first put the show on the air nearly 30 years ago, four of our interviewees, Lu Palmer, Vernon Jarrett, Eugene Sawyer, and Judge Eugene Pincham, have died.
自从我们在近 30 年前首次播出该节目以来，我们的四位受访者：卢·帕尔默、弗农·贾勒特、尤金·索耶和尤金·平查姆法官已经去世。
None of them lived to see a Black man win the Oval Office, or, of course, what's happened since.
他们中没有人活着看到黑人赢得椭圆形办公室，或者，当然，也没有看到此后发生的事情。
We used archival footage today from the following sources, from Brian Boyer's film, Harold Washington and the Council Wars, from Bill Cameron's taped recordings of Harold Washington's speeches and press conferences.
今天我们使用了以下来源的档案片段，来自布莱恩·博耶的电影《哈罗德·华盛顿和议会战争》，来自比尔·卡梅伦的哈罗德·华盛顿演讲和新闻发布会的录音。
We got tape from Chicago's Museum of Broadcast Communications, thanks to Bruce DuMont and the staff there.
感谢布鲁斯·杜蒙特和那里的工作人员，我们从芝加哥广播通信博物馆获得了磁带。
Also from Howard Gladstone and Jim Ylisela's film, The Race for Mayor; from Bill Stamets's film, Chicago Politics-- A Theater of Power; and from WBBM's archival news footage.
也来自霍华德·格莱斯顿和吉姆·伊利塞拉的电影《市长竞选》；摘自比尔·斯塔梅茨的电影《芝加哥政治——权力剧场》；以及 WBBM 的档案新闻片段。
WXYT Radio gave us archival tape of Aaron Freeman's Council Wars satire.
WXYT 电台向我们提供了亚伦·弗里曼 (Aaron Freeman) 讽刺议会战争的档案磁带。
And WTTW-TV gave us archival footage of the '83 debates.
WTTW-TV 为我们提供了 83 年辩论的档案镜头。
In addition to all that, we'd like to thank Eva Baeza, who at the time was director of the Chernin Center for the Arts at the Duncan YMCA.
除此之外，我们还要感谢当时担任邓肯基督教青年会切尔宁艺术中心主任的伊娃·巴埃扎 (Eva Baeza)。
And thanks to Gary Rivlin, who gave us advice throughout this production.
感谢加里·里夫林 (Gary Rivlin)，他在整个制作过程中为我们提供了建议。
We recommend his book, Fire on the Prairie.
我们推荐他的书《草原之火》。
It's a great history of the Washington years.
这是华盛顿时代的伟大历史。
Thanks to Hugo Tyrel and Dolores Woods.
感谢雨果·泰瑞尔和多洛雷斯·伍兹。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to the co-founder of our program, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
(SINGING) Bet your bottom dollar you lose the blues in Chicago, Chicago
（唱歌）赌你的底钱你会失去芝加哥的布鲁斯，芝加哥
[CHEERING] Ira Glass Let us close out today with a recording from the night of Harold Washington's second mayoral victory.
[欢呼]艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 让我们以哈罗德·华盛顿第二次当选市长当晚的录音结束今天的节目。
(SINGING) On State Street, that great street
（唱歌）在道富大街，那条伟大的街道
I just want to say They do things they don't do on Broadway, hey
我只想说他们做了百老汇不做的事情，嘿
They have the time, the time of their life
他们有时间，他们生命中的时间
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。