868: The Hand That Rocks The Gavel - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #868 | September 19, 2025 868: The Hand That Rocks The Gavel Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 868 集 | 2025 年 9 月 19 日 868：摇动木槌的手 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
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Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
This summer, three people from our show, Zoe and Nadia and Angela, spent weeks at immigration court in New York City, witnessing this extraordinary thing that you might have read about or heard about happening in the hallways there.
今年夏天，我们节目中的三个人佐伊（Zoe）、纳迪亚（Nadia）和安吉拉（Angela）在纽约市移民法庭呆了几周，亲眼目睹了你可能在走廊里读到或听说过的这件非凡的事情。
And there was one group at the center of that thing that nobody ever got to hear from.
那件事的中心有一个团体，但没有人听到他们的消息。
They would not talk to reporters, until now, when they've been talking to us.
他们不会与记者交谈，直到现在，他们才与我们交谈。
We had them on today's show.
我们在今天的节目中看到了他们。
We're going to get to them in a few minutes.
我们将在几分钟内找到他们。
But first, Zoe Chace now joins me in the studio.
但首先，佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 现在和我一起来到工作室。
Zoe, let's first describe what you witnessed at the courthouse.
佐伊，让我们首先描述一下你在法院目睹的情况。
OK, so we visited the courtrooms at 26 Federal Plaza downtown, and it's basically just a bunch of very old looking courtrooms.
好的，我们参观了市中心联邦广场 26 号的法庭，基本上就是一堆看起来很旧的法庭。
Normally, immigrants are coming in and out, going for their hearings in this place.
通常情况下，移民都会进出这里，参加听证会。
It looks like it hasn't been redone since the '90s.
看起来自90年代以来就没有重做过。
And now, you take the elevator.
现在，你乘坐电梯。
You get to the 12th floor.
你到达12楼。
The doors open, and it's just crowded, like three or four different kinds of law enforcement-- ICE, DHS, FBI.
门打开了，里面很拥挤，就像三四种不同类型的执法部门——ICE、国土安全部、联邦调查局。
I saw the diplomatic security service.
我看到了外交安全部门。
Whatever that is.
不管那是什么。
Zoe Chace Don't know.
佐伊·切斯 不知道。
Plus reporters, a lot of photographers, activists, lawyers.
还有记者、很多摄影师、活动人士、律师。
Everyone's kind of huddled around one courtroom door, like a celebrity is going to come out of it.
每个人都挤在法庭门口，就像名人要从里面走出来一样。
And the feeling of it, it's tense, and then it's boring.
而且那种感觉，先是紧张，然后就无聊了。
And then when somebody steps out of the courtroom, ICE surrounds them and handcuffs them and starts hustling them down the hall, and it gets very rushed, like an ER.
然后，当有人走出法庭时，ICE 会包围他们，给他们戴上手铐，然后开始催促他们穿过大厅，事情变得非常匆忙，就像急诊室一样。
Everyone's chasing them.
每个人都在追赶他们。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Zoe Chace Volunteer lawyers are racing down the hallway after this guy, asking for a phone number for a family member they can call for him.
[西班牙语]佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）志愿律师沿着走廊追赶这个家伙，询问他们可以帮他打电话的家庭成员的电话号码。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Zoe Chace 3, 4, 7, 3, 4, 7.
[西班牙语] Zoe Chace 3, 4, 7, 3, 4, 7。
Say more!
多说点！
I can contact your family!
我可以联系你的家人！
The guy says, I don't remember.
那人说，我不记得了。
He's pushed into the elevator.
他被推进了电梯。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lawyer OK.
[说西班牙语] 律师好的。
Bueno suerte, senor.
布埃诺苏尔特，先生。
Vaya con dios.
Vaya con dios。
What just happened?
刚刚发生了什么？
Lawyer ICE picked him up.
ICE 律师接了他。
They've been waiting there all day.
他们已经在那里等了一整天了。
They know who they're coming to get.
他们知道他们要找谁。
There was an ICE officer in the courtroom the entire time, texting and coordinating.
法庭上一直有一名 ICE 官员在发短信和协调。
And just to be clear, these are people showing up at court.
需要澄清的是，这些人是出庭的。
The government told them to.
政府告诉他们这样做。
They're following the rules as part of this legal process, and then they are suddenly getting arrested in the hallway and thrown into detention.
作为法律程序的一部分，他们遵守规则，然后突然在走廊里被捕并被投入拘留。
Yeah.
是的。
And we're doing so many of them here, it can feel almost routine.
我们在这里做了很多这样的事情，感觉几乎是例行公事。
Between the detentions, the agents and the press and the lawyers are just standing around chitchatting about the podcasts they listen to or Lord of the Rings.
在拘留期间，特工、媒体和律师只是站在那里闲聊他们听的播客或《指环王》。
And then something happens that almost reminds everyone of what we're doing here, no matter how many times we see it.
然后发生的事情几乎让每个人都想起我们在这里所做的事情，无论我们看到多少次。
It's one person's life turning completely upside down.
这是一个人的生活彻底翻天覆地的变化。
Like this one guy, his name was Luis, from Venezuela.
就像这个人一样，他的名字叫路易斯，来自委内瑞拉。
He was around 50 years old.
他当时大约 50 岁。
He'd actually entered the country legally at a port of entry.
他实际上是在入境口岸合法进入该国的。
He broke no law.
他没有违反任何法律。
He was detained in the hallway, pulled into the elevator.
他被扣在走廊里，被拉进电梯。
His sister was with him, trying to follow him in.
他的妹妹和他在一起，试图跟着他进去。
The doors closed in her face.
门当着她的面关上了。
She started jumping up and down.
她开始上蹿下跳。
[SCREAMING AND CRYING] (SCREAMING) Why?
[尖叫和哭泣]（尖叫）为什么？
Why?
为什么？
My little brother, my little brother's a good boy.
我的弟弟，我的弟弟是个好孩子。
Leave me alone!
请别打扰我！
Everyone just stood there, the agents hunched over.
每个人都站在那里，特工们弯着腰。
They seem miserable.
他们看起来很痛苦。
Some look down at their shoes.
有些人低头看着自己的鞋子。
The sister, Anyela, eventually tracked him down in New Jersey.
妹妹安耶拉最终在新泽西找到了他。
He's still in detention there now.
现在他还被关押在那里。
And were the judges in on this?
法官们对此有参与吗？
They're having these cases, and then people are leaving the courtrooms and being taken away in the hallway.
他们正在处理这些案件，然后人们离开法庭并在走廊上被带走。
We didn't know.
我们不知道。
But by the end of the summer, it didn't seem to matter what happened in the courtroom, what ruling the judges made.
但到了夏末，法庭上发生了什么、法官做出了什么裁决似乎都不重要了。
The agents were picking up whoever they wanted.
特工们正在抓捕他们想要的任何人。
And so we were like, what's going on with these judges?
所以我们就想，这些法官怎么了？
We really wanted to talk to them, but none of them would talk to us.
我们真的很想和他们说话，但他们都不肯和我们说话。
Well, at first.
嗯，一开始。
Zoe Chace At first, but that changed because what was happening in the hallways was just part of this dismantling of the immigration court.
佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）一开始，但情况发生了变化，因为走廊里发生的事情只是移民法庭解散的一部分。
There was all sorts of stuff happening on the inside, really in the guts of the place, that we could not see, that we didn't even know was there.
里面发生了各种各样的事情，实际上是在这个地方的内部，我们看不到，我们甚至不知道它们在那里。
And then, suddenly, the judges started talking.
然后，突然，评委们开始说话了。
Talking and saying some stuff that is totally eye-opening, and that is going to be our show today.
谈论一些完全令人大开眼界的事情，这就是我们今天的节目。
Today we're going to hear from people who we normally never hear from, immigration judges-- the people who are supposed to make the decisions about who stays and who goes in our country.
今天，我们将听到我们通常从未听到过的人的意见，即移民法官——他们应该对谁留在我们国家和谁离开我们的国家做出决定。
And they are saying now that is becoming very hard to do in a fair way because of the way their jobs have changed in the last few months.
他们表示，由于过去几个月他们的工作方式发生了变化，现在很难以公平的方式做到这一点。
Some of them are being told straight up what their decision should be.
他们中的一些人被直接告知他们应该做出什么决定。
Today they take us behind the curtain at the court.
今天他们带我们走进法庭的幕后。
The robes come off.
长袍脱落。
The judges get real.
评委们变得真实了。
They talk about stuff that I have never heard was happening at all.
他们谈论我从未听说过的事情。
To hear for yourself, stay with us.
如果您想亲自聆听，请留在我们这里。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
So like I was saying before the break, for months, no judge would talk to us.
就像我在休息前所说的那样，几个月来，没有法官愿意和我们说话。
Then, this summer, they started talking because of what they're seeing behind the scenes at immigration court.
然后，今年夏天，他们开始谈论他们在移民法庭的幕后所看到的情况。
Nadia Reiman talked to them.
纳迪亚·雷曼与他们交谈。
Here she is.
她在这里。
It takes a very specific person to be an immigration judge, the kind that likes minutia, likes listening to hours of translations from Quiché to Spanish to English, just to get someone to confirm their mailing address.
成为一名移民法官需要一个非常具体的人，那种喜欢细节的人，喜欢听几个小时从乳蛋饼到西班牙语再到英语的翻译，只是为了让某人确认他们的邮寄地址。
And obviously, you have to believe in rules.
显然，你必须相信规则。
One main rule they have-- don't talk to the press.
他们有一条主要规则——不要与媒体交谈。
I ended up talking to 15 judges from all over the country.
最后我和来自全国各地的 15 位评委进行了交谈。
Desperate times, I guess.
我想，绝望的时刻。
George Pappas was one of them.
乔治·帕帕斯就是其中之一。
He works at a court in Chelmsford, Massachusetts, close to Boston-- a pretty new judge.
他在马萨诸塞州切姆斯福德的一家法院工作，靠近波士顿，是一位相当新的法官。
He's been on the bench about two years.
他已经在替补席上呆了大约两年了。
An average day for him until recently was usually one of two kinds of hearings-- either a lot of quick, repetitive, boring hearings just to schedule the next hearing or a full asylum case.
直到最近，他的平均一天通常是两种听证会之一——要么是为了安排下一次听证会而进行的大量快速、重复、无聊的听证会，要么是完整的庇护案件。
There were some cases that I could not grant, so I'll go through those, OK?
有些情况我无法批准，所以我会处理这些，好吗？
Sure.
当然。
George Pappas Let me go through those first.
乔治·帕帕斯 让我先过一遍这些。
In those asylum hearings, a person would have to make the case that they cannot live anywhere in their home country because they're being persecuted due to their race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or the ever so squishy membership in a particular social group.
在庇护听证会上，一个人必须证明自己无法在祖国的任何地方居住，因为他们因种族、宗教、国籍、政治观点或特定社会群体中的弱势地位而受到迫害。
I've seen a lot of cases out of Brazil where the immigrant is saying, I'm being persecuted, and I fear for my life because the loan shark that I borrowed money from is after me.
我在巴西见过很多案例，移民说，我受到迫害，我担心自己的生命安全，因为向我借钱的高利贷者正在追捕我。
I haven't paid back the loan, and he's looking to kill me.
我还没有还清贷款，他却想杀了我。
I cannot tell you how many times I've seen that claim walk into my courtroom, and I'm just shaking my head.
我无法告诉你有多少次看到这种说法走进我的法庭，但我只是摇头。
Why is this here?
为什么会在这里？
Rough going, but being chased by a loan shark doesn't make you a member of a particular social group, so you can't get asylum.
虽然很艰难，但被高利贷者追捕并不能让你成为某个特定社会群体的成员，所以你无法获得庇护。
Pretty clear cut.
相当清晰。
Jorge denied those cases.
豪尔赫否认了这些案件。
Kyra Lilien, a judge from another court on the other side of the country-- Concord, in the Bay Area-- she also approaches her cases with a healthy level of skepticism, a discerning ear, because, you know, that's what she's supposed to do, and some people lie.
凯拉·利连 (Kyra Lilien) 是来自美国另一边旧金山湾区康科德市的另一家法院的法官，她也以适当的怀疑态度和敏锐的耳朵来处理案件，因为，你知道，这就是她应该做的事情，而有些人会撒谎。
That is something that always happens is that you do hear certain stories repeatedly and certain key details that are repeated, like hundreds of times over.
这是经常发生的事情，你确实会反复听到某些故事和某些重复的关键细节，比如数百次。
And so you're just immediately thinking, how can that possibly be the case?
所以你立刻就会想，怎么可能是这样呢？
They make you go side eyed a little.
它们会让你有点侧目。
You're like, is that true?
你说，这是真的吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
I never felt angry about it.
我从来没有为此感到生气。
In my mind, there are two big reasons why you could hear the same claim from someone over and over again.
在我看来，有两个重要原因可以解释为什么你会一遍又一遍地听到某人提出同样的说法。
One is because it's been manufactured, and it's been farmed out to a whole bunch of people, and they're all giving the same fake story.
一是因为它是被制造出来的，并且被外包给了一大堆人，而他们都在讲述同样的假故事。
The other is because there's a pattern and practice of human rights violations in that country.
另一个原因是该国存在侵犯人权的模式和做法。
And that's why everybody is giving the same story, because everybody's undergoing the same harm and persecution.
这就是为什么每个人都讲述同样的故事，因为每个人都遭受着同样的伤害和迫害。
So that's the challenge.
这就是挑战。
So that's the job-- hearings.
这就是工作——听证会。
And the people appearing in these hearings in Kyra's court, day after day, broke down like this-- people who wanted to stay in the US, their lawyers, if they had one, interpreters, and Department of Homeland Security lawyers.
日复一日地出席凯拉法庭听证会的人们都像这样崩溃了——那些想留在美国的人、他们的律师（如果有的话）、翻译和国土安全部的律师。
And no matter what horror story from what corner of the world she hears from the bench, she keeps things calm and orderly, which is why I was so shocking when I showed up at her courthouse this summer, and she could hear the chaos right outside her courtroom.
无论她在法官席上听到来自世界哪个角落的恐怖故事，她都会保持冷静和有序，这就是为什么当我今年夏天出现在她的法院时，我感到如此震惊，她可以听到法庭外的混乱。
I knew people were passing out.
我知道人们快要昏倒了。
I knew we had to call an ambulance for someone whose husband was detained.
我知道我们必须为丈夫被拘留的人叫救护车。
ICE officers were hiding in the stairwell.
ICE 官员躲在楼梯间。
I could see protesters outside of my window, standing in front of the ICE transport vans and trying to block them.
我可以看到窗外的抗议者站在 ICE 运输车前并试图阻止他们。
I could see the scuffle.
我可以看到扭打。
I could hear the drums and the honking.
我能听到鼓声和喇叭声。
And I would go into court thinking everything could explode, and I have to hold it.
我会在法庭上认为一切都可能爆炸，而我必须坚持下去。
All the judges I talked to said they were on edge about ICE now being inside the building, just outside their doors in the hall.
我采访过的所有法官都表示，他们对 ICE 现在位于大楼内、大厅门外感到紧张。
This was a huge change.
这是一个巨大的变化。
And at the same time, things inside their courtrooms began to change, too.
与此同时，法庭内的情况也开始发生变化。
Jennifer Durkin is a judge at a courthouse on Varick Street in Manhattan.
詹妮弗·德金是曼哈顿瓦里克街一家法院的法官。
Right around the time I showed up in New York, a DHS lawyer, a lawyer from the Department of Homeland Security, showed up for court.
就在我出现在纽约的时候，一位国土安全部的律师，一位来自国土安全部的律师，出现在法庭上。
They are the side that represents the government, usually arguing to deport someone.
他们是代表政府的一方，通常主张驱逐某人。
Two things were unusual that day-- first, DHS lawyers usually appear via video for this kind of routine hearing.
那天有两件事不寻常——首先，国土安全部的律师通常通过视频出席这种例行听证会。
This guy came in person.
这家伙亲自来了。
And second, he filed a motion to dismiss the case.
其次，他提出了驳回此案的动议。
In fact, he said to her--
事实上，他对她说——
I'm going to be making a number of motions to dismiss.
我将提出多项驳回动议。
I was like, what's happening?
我当时想，发生了什么事？
So that immediately sounded weird to you?
这对你来说听起来很奇怪吗？
Because typically, I mean, motions to dismiss would mean that they're no longer pursuing a prosecution of the person.
因为通常情况下，我的意思是，驳回动议意味着他们不再起诉该人。
OK.
好的。
Kyra Lilien Almost never happens.
凯拉·莉莲 (Kyra Lilien) 几乎从未发生过这种情况。
And ICE was outside.
ICE 就在外面。
There's a series of strange motions being made.
一系列奇怪的动作正在发生。
They're coming in person.
他们亲自来。
It was clear that something was up.
很明显出事了。
What was up was-- instead of arguing why a person should be deported, the government was like, we don't want to do that anymore.
事情是——政府没有争论为什么一个人应该被驱逐出境，而是说，我们不想再这样做了。
Instead, we want to dismiss the case, which, if you're the immigrant sitting there, can sound good.
相反，我们想驳回此案，如果你是坐在那里的移民，这听起来不错。
Like, great, I'm free!
就像，太好了，我自由了！
But the problem is you didn't win your asylum case.
但问题是你没有赢得庇护案。
Your case was dismissed.
你的案子被驳回了。
And the fact that you had a pending asylum case was the only reason you could stay in the country.
事实上，您有一个悬而未决的庇护案件，这是您可以留在该国的唯一原因。
Suddenly, with no pending case, you have no grounds to be here.
突然之间，没有悬而未决的案件，你就没有理由来这里了。
And you're standing just a few feet away from ICE who are ready to detain you.
而你就站在距离 ICE 几英尺远的地方，他们已经准备好拘留你了。
And the judges understood that better than the people in front of him.
评委们比面前的人更明白这一点。
They were like, how can we just close this case?
他们说，我们怎样才能结案呢？
For what legal reason?
出于什么法律原因？
It looked like a way to just trap people and detain them.
这看起来像是一种诱捕和拘留人们的方法。
The judges didn't know how to respond.
评委们不知道该如何回应。
So some of them called their supervisors, who are also judges, known as ACIJs, Assistant Chief Immigration Judges.
因此，他们中的一些人称他们的主管（同时也是法官）为助理首席移民法官。
Jennifer Peyton-- she goes by Jenna-- is an ACIJ in Chicago supervising 22 judges, has been a judge for nearly a decade.
詹妮弗·佩顿（Jennifer Peyton）——她的昵称是珍娜（Jenna）——是芝加哥的一名 ACIJ，负责监督 22 名法官，担任法官已近十年。
She was about to board a flight when her phone rang.
她正要登机，手机突然响了。
One of my judges called my cell phone.
我的一位评委拨通了我的手机。
And he's like, ah!
他就像，啊！
They're moving to dismiss in court.
他们准备在法庭上驳回诉讼。
I said adjudicate the case in front of you.
我说审判你面前的案子。
Adjudicate the motion as you would any other motion.
像裁决任何其他动议一样裁决该动议。
That's it.
就是这样。
Like, any other motion, Judge, adjudicate this like any other motion you've received.
就像任何其他动议一样，法官，请像您收到的任何其他动议一样裁决此案。
In other words, keep being a judge.
换句话说，继续当法官。
Follow the rules and make your judgment.
遵循规则并做出判断。
It seemed simple to her.
对她来说这似乎很简单。
Even if the government is asking for something weird, do your job like normal.
即使政府要求一些奇怪的东西，也要像平常一样做好你的工作。
In this situation, the practice is-- when one side moves to dismiss, you don't have to say yes right away.
在这种情况下，惯例是——当一方提出解散时，你不必立即答应。
You can give the other side 10 days to think about it.
你可以给对方10天的时间考虑。
But then, about a week after that, immigration judges got an email from the Executive Office of Immigration Review, EOIR-- their bosses who work for the Trump administration.
但大约一周后，移民法官收到了一封来自移民审查执行办公室 (EOIR) 的电子邮件，他们的老板为特朗普政府工作。
It was about the motions to dismiss.
这是关于驳回动议的。
And it said, "You don't need to give immigrants 10 days to respond.
它说，“你不需要给移民 10 天的时间来做出回应。
You may grant them motions that DHS is asking for on the spot." Most of the judges I talked to read this as instructing them to grant all the motions to dismiss, to side with Homeland Security.
你可以当场批准他们国土安全部要求的动议。”我采访过的大多数法官都将此解读为指示他们批准所有驳回动议，支持国土安全部。
Even though the email used the word "may," judges heard it as "shall."
尽管该电子邮件使用了“可能”一词，但法官们听到的是“应该”。
And that was what was concerning, that we were being told how to adjudicate motions to dismiss.
这就是令人担忧的地方，我们被告知如何裁决驳回动议。
But just to say, I mean, those are your bosses.
但我只想说，我的意思是，那些是你的老板。
Doesn't it make sense that your bosses would be like, this is what we need you to do?
你的老板会说，这就是我们需要你做的事情，这难道没有道理吗？
So as a supervisor, I never told my judges how to decide a case.
所以作为一名主管，我从来没有告诉我的法官如何判决一个案件。
And that is the hallmark of being an independent judge.
这就是作为一名独立法官的标志。
You are resolving issues and controversy using your training and your expertise and your knowledge of the immigration laws.
您正在利用您的培训、专业知识以及移民法知识来解决问题和争议。
And I'm not going to tell you how to decide a case.
我不会告诉你如何判决案件。
And this was telling me how to decide a case.
这告诉我如何判决一个案件。
And that was what was very troubling.
这就是非常令人不安的地方。
George went to his supervisor, another judge, immediately when this all went down.
当这一切发生后，乔治立即去找他的主管，另一位法官。
And I said, Judge, we're hearing that attorneys for the department are now coming into court, and they're asking to dismiss cases.
我说，法官，我们听说该部门的律师现在正在出庭，他们要求驳回案件。
Respondents are being arrested and put into expedited removal.
受访者正在被逮捕并被快速驱逐。
Is there anything you want to tell us in terms of how you want to approach this new environment?
关于如何应对这个新环境，您有什么想告诉我们的吗？
And his response was, grant them.
他的回答是，同意他们。
Grant them.
授予他们。
I looked at him.
我看着他。
This was a Teams video.
这是团队视频。
And I looked at him, and I said, you said grant them?
我看着他，我说，你说同意他们吗？
He goes, yeah.
他走了，是的。
You mean rubber stamp grant them?
你的意思是橡皮图章授予他们？
When I said rubber stamp, he hedged a little bit.
当我说橡皮图章时，他回避了一点。
He goes, well, if they're defective.
好吧，如果它们有缺陷的话，他就会去。
So unless they're defective, you want us to grant them?
所以除非它们有缺陷，否则你希望我们批准它们？
Yes.
是的。
The message was clear-- don't cause any trouble.
信息很明确——不要造成任何麻烦。
Grant them.
授予他们。
Some judges did just grant the motions, but George wanted to consider each request and rule according to each specific case.
有些法官确实批准了这些动议，但乔治想根据每个具体案例考虑每个请求和规则。
He didn't want to rubber stamp anything.
他不想在任何事情上盖上橡皮图章。
So he looked up case law about how to deny these dismissals legally.
因此，他查阅了判例法，了解如何合法地拒绝这些解雇。
And then he decided to share this info and stick it to his boss.
然后他决定分享此信息并将其告知他的老板。
And I made sure that that law was posted on Teams where he could see that.
我确保该法律发布在 Teams 上，他可以看到。
But it was my way of saying, no, this is the way we're going to do it.
但我的方式是说，不，这就是我们要做的事情。
Because I would put it out there and say, folks, just so you know, here's the law on motions to dismiss.
因为我会把它放在那里说，伙计们，只是让你们知道，这是关于驳回动议的法律。
If you need to deny, here are the case laws you need to be aware of.
如果您需要否认，以下是您需要了解的判例法。
These are the standards of review you need to keep in mind.
这些是您需要牢记的审查标准。
In order to protect due process, you got to do X, Y, and Z.
为了保护正当程序，你必须做 X、Y 和 Z。
Why did you do that?
你为什么这么做？
George Pappas Because I resisted.
乔治·帕帕斯 因为我抵抗了。
It was my legal way, internally, to challenge a directive which was wrong.
这是我在内部挑战错误指令的合法方式。
How did you feel?
你感觉如何？
Were you scared to do that?
你害怕这样做吗？
Did it feel like a little strange?
是不是感觉有点奇怪？
You don't know me.
你不认识我。
No, I'm not scared.
不，我不害怕。
I'm not scared.
我不害怕。
I'm not scared.
我不害怕。
I was angry.
我很生气。
I was angry that we were being manipulated.
我很生气我们被操纵了。
Jennifer Durkin from New York didn't see it the way George did.
来自纽约的詹妮弗·德金 (Jennifer Durkin) 并不像乔治那样看待这一问题。
So I hadn't read it that way, but I do think others did.
所以我没有这样读过，但我确实认为其他人是这样读的。
I was literally like, which memo?
我当时就想，哪个备忘录？
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Jennifer Durkin I chose to assume that, of course, I would be left with my judicial independence.
Jennifer Durkin 我选择假设，当然，我将保留司法独立。
And that was legal decision making.
那是合法的决策。
And so to me, that-- I guess I had hoped and assumed that would be left untouched.
对我来说，我想我曾希望并假设它不会受到影响。
And for a minute there, that was exactly what happened.
在那一分钟里，这正是发生的事情。
She would rule on something based on what she thought was right, which was mostly denying motions to dismiss from the government, and ICE respected that.
她会根据她认为正确的事情做出裁决，这主要是拒绝驳回政府的动议，ICE 尊重这一点。
They didn't pick up people from those cases-- let them walk out.
他们没有从那些案件中接走人——让他们离开。
But then, all of a sudden, ICE changed their approach.
但后来，ICE 突然改变了他们的做法。
A couple of weeks later, it didn't matter if you denied them.
几周后，即使你拒绝他们也没关系。
The people were still being detained.
人民仍被拘留。
When did you notice?
你什么时候注意到的？
How did you notice that it was happening?
您是如何注意到它正在发生的？
I want to say maybe somebody had been outside who knew I had denied a certain motion, whether it was a staff member or a security guard, and then saw them get detained, and came back in and told me-- they were like, didn't you deny that motion?
我想说，也许外面有人知道我拒绝了某个动议，无论是工作人员还是保安，然后看到他们被拘留，然后回来告诉我——他们说，你不是拒绝了那个动议吗？
And I said, yes.
我说，是的。
And they said, they took him.
他们说，他们带走了他。
And so at that point, I might have looked at OPLA and I said, is everyone just being detained?
因此，在那时，我可能会查看 OPLA，然后说，是不是每个人都被拘留了？
OPLA, by the way, is what judges call the government attorney-- Office of the Principal Legal Advisor.
顺便说一下，OPLA 就是法官所说的政府检察官——首席法律顾问办公室。
What'd you say to that?
你对此说什么？
Jennifer Durkin There wasn't much I could say.
Jennifer Durkin 我没什么可说的。
To be clear, ICE had the legal authority to detain any immigrant whose case was pending.
需要明确的是，ICE 拥有拘留任何案件悬而未决的移民的法律权力。
They just rarely used it.
他们只是很少使用它。
But now that it was happening so regularly, that brought up an existential question-- what is the point of the judge?
但现在这种情况如此频繁地发生，这就提出了一个存在主义问题——法官的意义何在？
Whether they granted the motions to dismiss, whether they denied them, it didn't seem to affect what happened to the people in their courtrooms either way.
无论他们是否批准驳回动议，无论他们是否拒绝，这似乎都不会影响法庭上的人所发生的事情。
I knew that my ruling mattered, and the way I handled the case legally matters.
我知道我的裁决很重要，我合法处理案件的方式也很重要。
But in terms of the practical outcome, ICE was going to do what they were going to do regardless of my ruling.
但就实际结果而言，无论我的裁决如何，ICE 都会做他们想做的事。
Right, so that's got to be a strange feeling because it's like you're saying it matters, but it matters almost like in a very intellectual way, but not in a practical way?
是的，所以这一定是一种奇怪的感觉，因为这就像你在说这很重要，但它几乎以一种非常理智的方式重要，但不是以一种实际的方式？
Yes.
是的。
And it matters for purposes of appeal.
这对于上诉的目的很重要。
It matters in terms of how that person might be able to seek redress in the future.
这关系到该人将来如何寻求补救。
But it doesn't matter in terms of me being able to influence, one way or the other, whether someone's taken into custody.
但就我是否能够以某种方式影响某人是否被拘留而言并不重要。
And it was always very clear that I didn't have any influence over that.
很明显我对此没有任何影响力。
Isn't that maddening, though?
但这不是令人抓狂吗？
Because it's not like you can influence whether or not somebody gets taken into custody, but you're literally saying this person is still in proceedings or under the protection of the court, and they're getting picked up anyway.
因为你无法影响某人是否被拘留，但你实际上是在说这个人仍在诉讼中或受到法院的保护，而且无论如何他们都会被抓起来。
It really just felt like the walls were disintegrating around us.
真的感觉我们周围的墙壁正在崩塌。
It felt like everything was falling apart.
感觉一切都崩溃了。
We have a big, complicated immigration system designed to answer a pretty simple question-- who can stay and who can't?
我们有一个庞大而复杂的移民系统，旨在回答一个非常简单的问题——谁可以留下来，谁不能留下来？
And up until now, most immigration judges felt and acted like they were part of the judicial branch of government, an independent branch that just interprets and applies the laws.
到目前为止，大多数移民法官的感觉和行为都像是政府司法部门的一部分，是一个仅解释和适用法律的独立部门。
But they're not, not technically.
但从技术上讲，它们不是。
They're actually part of the executive branch within the Department of Justice.
他们实际上是司法部行政部门的一部分。
They work for the president.
他们为总统工作。
But till now, no administration has ever given them very direct orders about how to decide their cases.
但到目前为止，还没有哪一届政府曾向他们发出非常直接的命令，告诉他们如何裁决他们的案件。
They weren't used to it, and they didn't like it.
他们不习惯，也不喜欢。
But the orders kept coming in the form of policy memos from their bosses at the Department of Justice-- a lot of policy memos, actually, that would start to transform immigration court from the inside.
但这些命令不断以司法部老板的政策备忘录的形式发出——实际上，很多政策备忘录将开始从内部改变移民法院。
Some targeted a problem that the Trump administration was blaming on Biden, the giant backlog of immigration cases on the books.
一些人针对特朗普政府指责拜登的问题，即登记册上大量积压的移民案件。
Under President Biden, so many people entered the United States that the number of asylum cases exploded, which added to an existing backlog.
在拜登总统的领导下，进入美国的人数过多，导致庇护案件数量激增，加剧了现有的积压案件。
The total is now more than 3.5 million pending immigration cases, with a comparatively tiny pool of judges to adjudicate them, under 700.
目前待决移民案件总数超过 350 万起，负责裁决这些案件的法官人数相对较少，不到 700 人。
Immigration judges who worked under the first Trump administration figured they would be given quotas to deal with this.
在第一届特朗普政府任职的移民法官认为，他们将获得配额来处理这个问题。
That's what happened last time.
上次就是这样。
Close this many cases in this amount of time, move through that backlog as fast as humanly possible.
在这段时间内关闭如此多的案件，以尽可能快的速度处理积压的案件。
But that didn't happen, not at first, anyway.
但这并没有发生，至少一开始没有。
Instead, they got all the memos, like this one, that began this way-- "EOIR adjudicators have a duty to efficiently manage their dockets.
相反，他们收到了所有备忘录，就像这份备忘录一样，开头是这样的——“EOIR 裁决员有责任有效地管理他们的备审案件。
It is clear from the almost four million pending cases on EOIR's docket that has not been happening." Sick burn.
从 EOIR 待决案件中的近 400 万起案件可以明显看出，这种情况并未发生。”病烧伤。
This memo was like, we're going to suggest that you change the way you do asylum cases in the first place.
这份备忘录的意思是，我们首先建议您改变处理庇护案件的方式。
It told the judges to look at the initial asylum application, usually the first step in this long process, often filled out by hand by people without a lawyer.
它告诉法官要查看最初的庇护申请，这通常是这个漫长过程的第一步，通常是由没有律师的人手写填写的。
And if that had anything incomplete or incorrect, throw out the whole case.
如果其中有任何不完整或不正确的地方，请扔掉整个案例。
Don't even hear it.
连听都听不到。
It was called "praetor mission of legally insufficient applications for asylum.
这被称为“庇护申请在法律上不充分的执行官使命”。
Here's Kyra.
这是凯拉。
Especially with someone who's not represented by counsel, I want to hear from them.
特别是对于没有律师代表的人，我想听听他们的意见。
I want to meet them.
我想见见他们。
I want to hear what they have to say before I adjudicate their case.
在我对他们的案件做出裁决之前，我想听听他们有什么话要说。
I want to hear their testimony.
我想听听他们的证词。
I want to see what evidence they file.
我想看看他们提交了什么证据。
This felt to Kyra like a major violation.
凯拉觉得这像是一次重大违规。
It was telling her, don't think, don't assess.
它告诉她，不要思考，不要评估。
Just push this button.
只需按下此按钮即可。
It felt anti-judge.
感觉是反法官的。
Worse, it seemed to be cutting off the chance for people seeking asylum to have their cases heard, denying them the chance to present their evidence in a full hearing, denying them the due process that, as a judge, Kyra felt she should be protecting-- the due process, by the way, that is enshrined in the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.
更糟糕的是，它似乎切断了寻求庇护者审理案件的机会，剥夺了他们在全面听证会上提供证据的机会，剥夺了他们作为法官凯拉认为她应该保护的正当程序——顺便说一句，这是宪法第五修正案所规定的正当程序。
There was something else about the new policy memos that really annoyed the judges.
新的政策备忘录还有其他一些内容确实让法官们很恼火。
The memos were very accusatory-- at the judges and the courts themselves.
这些备忘录充满了指责——针对法官和法院本身。
The overall tone was basically, you've been doing everything all wrong.
总体基调基本上是，你做的一切都错了。
Things are out of control.
事情已经失控了。
Now, we're going to put you on a tight leash.
现在，我们要紧紧地拴住你。
They felt personal.
他们感觉很有个性。
They seemed like rants, ranting against the way immigration judges were handling cases and strongly pushing us into a certain direction.
他们看起来像是咆哮，咆哮反对移民法官处理案件的方式，并强烈地将我们推向某个方向。
I heard someone refer to these PMs as the Festivus memos, as they were the airing of grievances, like from Seinfeld.
我听到有人将这些 PM 称为节日备忘录，因为它们表达了不满，就像《宋飞正传》中的那样。
Yeah.
是的。
Jennifer Peyton I think the tone was really significant because it didn't sound like any of them were written by someone who knew what the job was that we were doing, or understood the concerns that we would be weighing in the courtroom.
詹妮弗·佩顿（Jennifer Peyton）我认为这种语气非常重要，因为听起来不像是由知道我们正在做的工作是什么或了解我们将在法庭上权衡的担忧的人写的。
It really just seems like a chip on the shoulder.
这看起来真的就像是肩上的负担。
It's detached from reality and completely unprofessional.
它脱离现实并且完全不专业。
The memos are explicitly furious with everything related to the Biden administration, saying basically that the Biden administration stacked both judge hiring and immigration court policy in favor of immigrants.
这些备忘录明确对与拜登政府有关的一切感到愤怒，基本上说拜登政府在法官招聘和移民法院政策上都采取了有利于移民的政策。
And so many memos rescind Biden era policies to fix that.
许多备忘录废除了拜登时代的政策来解决这个问题。
They accused the judges, especially the newer ones, of being too into the immigrants, of being foot draggers and taking too long with this imperfect process that we have for ensuring immigrants get a chance to plead their case.
他们指责法官，尤其是新法官，对移民问题太过关心，拖拖拉拉，并且在我们确保移民有机会为自己的案件辩护的不完美程序上花费了太长时间。
There's one memo that was such an obvious dig at the judges, it was hard to miss.
有一份备忘录明显是在挖苦评委，很难错过。
Oh, this is a good one.
噢，这是一件好事。
Oh, god, I saw this, and I'm like, oh, you have got to be kidding me.
哦，上帝，我看到了这个，我想，哦，你一定是在跟我开玩笑。
Yeah?
是吗？
Jennifer Peyton All right, title-- "Neutrality and Impartiality in Immigration Court Proceedings."
詹妮弗·佩顿 好吧，标题——“移民法庭诉讼中的中立性和公正性”。
Can I ask you to read not the middle graph, but the one that starts, "although many immigration judges"?
我可以请你不要读中间的图，而是读开头的那张图，“尽管有很多移民法官”吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Oh my god.
天哪。
"Although many immigration judges scrupulously maintain impartiality towards both parties in immigration proceedings, there are some immigration judges who appear to believe, based on their own personal policy preferences, that exhibiting bias is justifiable in certain situations, as long as that bias is in favor of an alien and against the Department of Homeland Security."
“尽管许多移民法官在移民程序中严格保持对双方的公正性，但有些移民法官似乎认为，基于他们自己的个人政策偏好，在某些情况下表现出偏见是合理的，只要这种偏见有利于外国人而不是国土安全部。”
In other words, you judges think bias towards immigrants is OK, and you keep ruling in their favor instead of fully considering the arguments from the Department of Homeland Security.
换句话说，你们法官认为对移民的偏见是可以的，你们一直做出对他们有利的裁决，而不是充分考虑国土安全部的论点。
It also said, quote, "Judges who would prefer to be policy advocates favoring either aliens or DHS should consider transitioning to alternate career paths."
它还说，“愿意成为有利于外国人或国土安全部的政策倡导者的法官应该考虑转向其他职业道路。”
There's a lot in there.
里面有很多东西。
Jennifer Peyton A lot.
詹妮弗·佩顿 很多。
What parts jumped out at you when you read that?
当你读到这篇文章时，哪些部分让你印象深刻？
Oh, the alternate career path, that was a big one.
哦，另一种职业道路，那是一件大事。
Like, if you don't want to be here, just get out.
就像，如果你不想呆在这里，就出去吧。
Well, I just think it's really strange for the headquarters office to say that immigration judges across the country, hundreds of us, are all ruling in favor of one side and not the other.
嗯，我只是觉得总部办公室说全国各地的移民法官，我们数百人，都做出有利于一方而不是另一方的裁决，这真的很奇怪。
That is pressure to rule more in favor of the side that they claim is being disadvantaged.
这是一种压力，要求做出更多有利于他们声称处于不利地位的一方。
It's essentially, I mean, in the best light, a reminder to be a truly fair adjudicator.
我的意思是，从最好的角度来看，这本质上是在提醒我们成为一个真正公平的裁决者。
In the best light, you could take it as a reminder to be a fair adjudicator and respect due process for both parties.
从最好的角度来看，您可以将其视为一个提醒，让您成为公平的裁决者并尊重双方的正当程序。
But really, what it was was a suggestion that we should be ruling in favor of DHS, and that if we're being unfair to DHS.
但实际上，这是建议我们应该做出有利于国土安全部的裁决，如果我们对国土安全部不公平的话。
I kept wondering if this impartiality memo actually did change something in the way judges acted?
我一直想知道这份公正性备忘录是否真的改变了法官的行事方式？
Did it seep into the courtroom in some way?
它是否以某种方式渗透到法庭？
I came at this job with constant focus and an intentionality to ensure that I was considering DHS's perspective, and that I was listening, and that I was addressing their points.
我带着持续的专注和意图来从事这项工作，以确保我考虑国土安全部的观点，我正在倾听，并且我正在解决他们的观点。
That's my only doubt is if I might have given DHS too much leeway
我唯一的疑问是我是否给了国土安全部太多的余地
So it did get in your head in a way then?
那么它确实以某种方式进入了你的脑海吗？
It got in my head.
它进入了我的脑海。
I don't think it ever affected the ultimate adjudication.
我认为这不会影响最终的裁决。
But I do think that there are points where I let a really aggressive DHS attorney continue too long with a hurtful line of questioning because I didn't want to cut them off.
但我确实认为，在某些方面，我让一位非常咄咄逼人的国土安全部律师继续进行伤害性的询问，因为我不想打断他们。
Really?
真的吗？
Kyra Lilien Yeah, because of trying to compensate.
Kyra Lilien 是的，因为想要补偿。
I asked EOIR about the memos, if they were trying to get judges to decide cases in DHS's favor.
我向 EOIR 询问了这些备忘录，看他们是否试图让法官做出有利于国土安全部的案件裁决。
They said that the, quote, "numerous policy memoranda were supposed to make the judges impartial again" and undue, quote, "over 20 policies that were unfounded in law or discourage the timely completion of cases." That's it.
他们表示，“众多政策备忘录本应使法官再次公正”，并且不恰当地引用“20多项政策，这些政策没有法律依据或阻碍案件的及时结案”。就是这样。
We also asked for interviews with the director of EOIR and officials at the DOJ about all the changes the judges told us about to get the administration's side of it.
我们还要求采访 EOIR 主任和司法部官员，了解法官告诉我们的所有变化，以获得政府的支持。
They turned us down.
他们拒绝了我们。
Everywhere these judges turned, they seemed to be getting the message that the job as they knew it, that didn't exist anymore.
无论这些法官走到哪里，他们似乎都得到这样的信息：他们所知道的这份工作已经不存在了。
ICE was grabbing people no matter what they said.
无论人们说什么，ICE 都会抓住他们。
They were getting these memos where they were both pressured and disrespected.
他们在受到压力和不尊重的情况下收到这些备忘录。
And to be honest, they'd been living in an environment where a lot of them felt under threat since the beginning of the Trump administration.
老实说，自特朗普政府上台以来，他们中的许多人一直生活在一个感到受到威胁的环境中。
Within hours of Trump taking the oath of office, the acting attorney general abruptly fired a bunch of the immigration bosses at the DOJ-- four of the top people.
特朗普宣誓就职后的几个小时内，代理司法部长突然解雇了司法部的一批移民负责人——其中四名高层人士。
This had never happened before.
这以前从未发生过。
There was no reason given other than pursuant to Article 2, basically, the president can decide everything that happens at DOJ.
除了根据第二条之外，没有给出任何理由，基本上，总统可以决定司法部发生的一切。
It was a loud, blaring signal to the immigration section that everything would be different this time.
这对移民部门来说是一个响亮而刺耳的信号，表明这次一切都会不同。
Jenna is senior staff.
珍娜是高级职员。
She knew the four bosses who got fired, and it really freaked her out.
她认识被解雇的四位老板，这确实吓坏了她。
Also she'd been put on this DHS watch list, this website funded by the Heritage Foundation.
她还被列入国土安全部观察名单，该网站由传统基金会资助。
It calls out, quote, "America's most subversive immigration bureaucrats."
引用它的话说，“美国最具颠覆性的移民官僚”。
Jenna's picture was there, under Targets.
珍娜的照片就在那里，在“目标”下面。
So she felt like she was being watched.
所以她感觉自己被人监视了。
She wouldn't wear headphones when she walked the dog after that, asked the police to come and check in on her home.
此后她遛狗时就不再戴耳机，并要求警察来她家查看。
She started looking at all kinds of normal things with extra trepidation, like her Teams group chat, which was your typical office group chat where a bunch of work friends talk about the job, complain about the boss, get a little snarky.
她开始带着额外的恐惧看待各种正常的事情，比如她的团队群聊，这是典型的办公室群聊，一群工作朋友谈论工作，抱怨老板，有点尖酸刻薄。
I was like, I need to get out of this chat, man.
我当时想，我需要退出这场谈话，伙计。
I just feel like-- my spidey sense was tingling.
我只是觉得——我的蜘蛛侠感觉在刺痛。
And so I sent a post.
所以我发了一个帖子。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It just felt like, the swiftness with the firings of Sheila and the other three, I was like, I just need to really keep my head down.
只是感觉，希拉和其他三个人的快速解雇，我想，我只需要真正低下头。
So she sees herself out of the group chat and finds that really soon, she gets FOMO, so she comes up with a workaround.
因此，她发现自己退出了群聊，并发现很快她就陷入了 FOMO 状态，因此她想出了一个解决方法。
I start using Signal because I'm super cool.
我开始使用 Signal 因为我超级酷。
And I open my Signal, and I start to populate it with some of my ACIJs, my buddies.
我打开我的 Signal，开始在其中填充我的一些 ACIJ、我的好友。
The assistant chief immigration judge chat I named something like Ass Crack Instant Jokes.
助理首席移民法官聊天我将其命名为“屁股裂缝即时笑话”。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It was a moment I opened it.
就在我打开它的那一刻。
Right, ACIJ, man.
是的，ACIJ，伙计。
Everything needs an initial, so this is what it was-- Assistant Chief Immigration Judge Ass Crack Instant Jokes.
一切都需要一个首字母缩写，所以这就是它——助理首席移民法官屁股裂缝即时笑话。
This becomes a good Band-Aid.
这成为一个很好的创可贴。
The immigration judges in Ass Crack Instant Jokes do the same thing they do in Teams-- send each other memes, gossip about work, until February 14.
Ass Crack Instant Jokes 中的移民法官做着与 Teams 中相同的事情——互相发送表情包、工作八卦，直到 2 月 14 日。
The Signal chat starts to pop, and one of my ACIJ buddies goes, I just got fired.
Signal 聊天开始弹出，我的一位 ACIJ 好友说，我刚刚被解雇了。
And someone else says, I just got fired, too.
还有人说，我也刚刚被解雇了。
And someone else-- me, too.
还有其他人——我也是。
And all of a sudden it was like, six.
突然之间，就变成了六。
Actually, it was 20-- 13 judges-in-training and seven ACIJs, people at Jenna's level.
实际上，有 20 名——13 名实习法官和 7 名 ACIJ，都是詹娜级别的人。
Everyone left standing started doing the math, looking at people's records in the courtroom, being like, were they more likely to grant asylum than not?
每个人都站着开始计算，查看人们在法庭上的记录，心想，他们是否更有可能给予庇护？
Is that why they got fired?
这就是他们被解雇的原因吗？
Jennifer Durkin in New York heard about the firings, and she was like, oh crap, the people getting fired are former immigration lawyers.
纽约的詹妮弗·德金 (Jennifer Durkin) 听说了解雇的消息，她说，哦，糟糕，被解雇的人都是前移民律师。
Sounds a lot like me.
听起来很像我。
It was overwhelming for the people who were left.
对于剩下的人来说，这是难以承受的。
Here's George.
这是乔治。
It was an assault.
这是一次袭击。
It was like an old medieval castle that was under siege.
它就像一座被围困的中世纪古老城堡。
They were slowly cutting off our food supply.
他们正在慢慢切断我们的食物供应。
Now, they're cutting off our air supply.
现在，他们正在切断我们的空气供应。
Other judges began to say, I'm resigning.
其他法官开始说，我要辞职。
And before you think that all these judges who were feeling this way must be big asylum granters, not really.
在你认为所有有这种感觉的法官一定是大的庇护授予者之前，事实并非如此。
George, for example, denied like, 3/4 of his cases, but still he didn't feel safe.
例如，乔治否认了 3/4 的案件，但他仍然感到不安全。
George packed up his office after the February firings, took everything off his walls so he'd be ready just in case.
乔治在二月份解雇后收拾了他的办公室，把墙上的所有东西都拿走了，这样他就可以做好准备以防万一。
Three of the judges I talked to did this.
我采访过的三位法官就是这样做的。
The pressure caught up to each of them somehow.
不知何故，压力降临到了他们每个人身上。
I haven't been sleeping that well, and I guess I've had a lot of headaches recently and some pain in my jaw.
我睡得不太好，我想我最近头痛得很厉害，下巴也有些疼痛。
They did X-rays, and they said, well, you have literally ground down your teeth.
他们做了 X 光检查，他们说，好吧，你的牙齿确实被磨掉了。
So mine are flat.
所以我的都是平的。
This is all because of the stress of this happening?
这一切都是因为发生这件事的压力吗？
I think it's certainly been exacerbated by it, yeah.
我想这肯定会加剧这种情况，是的。
I don't know how to emphasize how hard these demands were on these judges.
我不知道如何强调这些要求对这些法官来说有多么困难。
They felt completely squeezed between a duty to give the immigrants in their court a fair hearing and all that the DOJ was asking them to do.
他们感到自己完全被夹在一边，一边有义务在法庭上为移民提供公平的听证会，另一边则要满足司法部要求他们做的一切。
One judge told me they were feeling suicidal.
一位法官告诉我，他们有自杀的念头。
Everyone talked about crying, crying at work, crying outside of work.
大家都说哭，工作里哭，工作外哭。
I've never heard of so many judges crying.
我从来没有听说过有这么多法官哭。
Nadia Reiman.
纳迪亚·雷曼。
Coming up, an immigration judge walks into a drag club.
接下来，一名移民法官走进一家变装俱乐部。
Actually, the judge doesn't walk into a drag club.
事实上，法官并没有走进变装俱乐部。
He does not talk to the owner.
他不与主人交谈。
That is the problem.
这就是问题所在。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program-- The Hand That Rocks the Gavel.
今天的节目——摇动木槌的手。
Nadia Reiman's story about immigration judges and the things that they are witnessing inside immigration court these days continues.
纳迪亚·雷曼（Nadia Reiman）关于移民法官以及他们这些天在移民法庭内目睹的事情的故事仍在继续。
Its Fourth of July weekend.
这是七月四日的周末。
Jenna, the boss judge, decides to go out with her family to a summer home they have on a river.
首席法官珍娜决定和家人一起去河边的避暑别墅。
It's nice, and it's rural.
挺好的，而且很乡村。
She leaves her government phone charging and isn't looking at it-- really wants to unplug.
她让她的政府电话在充电，却没有看它——真的很想拔掉电源。
But at the end of the day, she gets tempted.
但最终，她受到了诱惑。
Let me just do a quick little scroll and just make sure there's nothing I need to really worry about.
让我快速滚动一下，确保没有什么我需要真正担心的事情。
So I turn on my phone, and I do a scroll, and I see an email.
所以我打开手机，滚动一下，然后看到一封电子邮件。
The subject is, Notice of Termination dash Peyton.
主题是《终止通知》达什·佩顿。
It's from Director Owen.
这是欧文导演发来的。
And the email says, please see the attached.
电子邮件说，请参阅附件。
Wait, what was it?
等等，那是什么？
What was the attachment?
附件是什么？
Oh, hang on.
哦，坚持住。
I can read it to you.
我可以读给你听。
It's all of three sentences.
都是三句话。
I probably have it memorized because it was so short.
我可能已经记住了它，因为它太短了。
Wow.
哇。
Jennifer Peyton Hang on, let me go back and find it.
詹妮弗·佩顿 等一下，让我回去找到它。
"Dear Judge Peyton, this notice serves to inform you that, pursuant to Article II of the Constitution, the attorney general has decided to remove you from your position as an accepted Service Assistant Chief Immigration Judge with the United States Department of Justice Executive Office for Immigration Review.
“亲爱的佩顿法官，本通知旨在通知您，根据《宪法》第二条，总检察长已决定解除您在美国司法部移民审查执行办公室担任助理首席移民法官的职务。
Your removal is effective today.
您的移除今天生效。
You are required to return all government property by the end of the day.
您必须在当天结束前归还所有政府财产。
Sincerely, Sircy Owen, acting director, EOIR."
此致，EOIR 代理总监 Sircy Owen。”
Jenna had been on the bench for almost nine years.
珍娜已经在替补席上呆了将近九年了。
EOIR didn't say why they fired her.
EOIR 没有说明他们解雇她的原因。
A week after Jenna got fired, George in Massachusetts was approaching the end of his two year probationary period.
珍娜被解雇一周后，马萨诸塞州的乔治的两年试用期即将结束。
That's the time before judges are made permanent, which is usually not even a question.
那是在法官成为常任法官之前的时间，这通常甚至不是一个问题。
Basically, everyone gets made permanent.
基本上，每个人都成为永久的。
The first batch of judges who got fired back in February, though-- it happened right at the end of their two-year probationary period.
不过，第一批在二月份被解雇的法官是在两年试用期结束时发生的。
So George knew what was coming.
所以乔治知道接下来会发生什么。
Yeah, it was frightening-- July 11 at about 3:30.
是的，这很可怕——7 月 11 日下午 3:30 左右。
Really?
真的吗？
You predicted, like, down to around 3:30?
你预测会是 3:30 左右吗？
Yeah, yeah, they're to the T.
是啊，是啊，他们到了T。
I wish it was a lottery because I could retire now.
我希望这是一张彩票，因为我现在可以退休了。
Jennifer Durkin from New York got fired that exact same way-- short letter, end of the day, also was at the end of her two-year probationary period.
来自纽约的詹妮弗·德金 (Jennifer Durkin) 也以同样的方式被解雇——一封简短的信，归根结底，她的两年试用期也已结束。
And Kyra was also at the end of her two years.
凯拉也已经快两年了。
And out of all the firing stories I heard, hers was the nuttiest.
在我听到的所有解雇故事中，她的故事是最疯狂的。
I was on the record in the middle of a hearing, and I got the email.
我在听证会期间进行了记录，并收到了电子邮件。
When I saw the email that I've been dreading for five or six months when I saw it come in through my Outlook account, I just said, I'm very sorry.
当我看到这封我五六个月来一直害怕的电子邮件时，我看到它是通过我的 Outlook 帐户传入的，我只是说，我很抱歉。
We're going to have to go off the record for a moment.
我们得暂时不公开了。
And we went off the record.
我们就不再记录了。
I looked at it.
我看着它。
I made sure I was reading it correctly.
我确定我读得正确。
It was only three lines long, and it said I needed to turn in my laptop and badge immediately and leave.
它只有三行长，它说我需要立即上交我的笔记本电脑和徽章并离开。
And I told the parties that I had just been fired--
我告诉各方我刚刚被解雇了——
Oh, my god.
哦，天啊。
Kyra Lilien --and I'm not going to be able to conclude the hearing.
凯拉·利连（Kyra Lilien）——我无法结束听证会。
And both the attorneys, both for DHS and respondent's counsel said, what?
国土安全部的律师和被告的律师都说，什么？
Are you joking?
你在开玩笑吗？
And I said, I'm not joking.
我说，我不是在开玩笑。
That's wild.
那太疯狂了。
So there's an immigrant and their lawyer sitting there looking at you?
所以有一个移民和他们的律师坐在那里看着你？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, and for better or for worse, that lawyer then blasted out something on a listserv that I started in the following days.
是的，无论好坏，那位律师随后在我接下来几天启动的列表服务器上发布了一些内容。
People started sending me screenshots of this email he'd sent out.
人们开始向我发送他发送的这封电子邮件的屏幕截图。
And it was, y'all, this is wild.
各位，这太疯狂了。
IJ Lilien was fired on the bench, and this is what happened.
IJ Lilien 在替补席上被解雇了，这就是发生的事情。
And so that was also a little-- it just was so public in that way.
所以这也有点——它只是以这种方式公开。
I was physically trembling.
我的身体在颤抖。
And always in court, disturbing and upsetting things happen.
在法庭上，总是会发生令人不安和不安的事情。
Disturbing and upsetting facts come to light.
令人不安和令人不安的事实逐渐曝光。
And it is the job of the judge to maintain the dignity and decorum of the court and to show respect for the parties.
法官的职责是维护法庭的尊严和礼仪，并尊重当事人。
And that's just where I went.
这就是我去过的地方。
And I told them what had happened.
我告诉他们发生了什么事。
And I said, I need to get back on the record.
我说，我需要重新记录。
And we did.
我们做到了。
And I said, my apologies to the parties.
我说，我向各方道歉。
I'm not going to be able to hear this case today.
我今天无法审理此案。
The court will reach out to you with a new hearing date.
法院将与您联系并告知新的听证日期。
And to respondent's counsel, can you please explain to the respondent that we're not able to have a hearing today, and I do apologize for that.
对于被告的律师，您能否向被告解释一下我们今天无法举行听证会，对此我深表歉意。
And then we disconnected.
然后我们就断了联系。
My visceral feeling when I got that message was relief because I had been living on a knife's edge for months.
当我收到这条消息时，我的内心感觉松了一口气，因为几个月来我一直生活在刀刃上。
Almost all of the 15 judges I talked to no longer work at the DOJ.
我采访过的 15 名法官几乎全部不再在司法部工作。
A few retired when they were given the option, but most were just fired.
一些人在获得选择权后就退休了，但大多数人只是被解雇了。
None of them have real answers about why, beyond those short letters.
除了那些简短的信件之外，他们都没有真正回答为什么。
Some have sued.
有些人已经提起诉讼。
We asked EOIR about all these firings.
我们向 EOIR 询问了所有这些解雇的情况。
They declined to comment.
他们拒绝发表评论。
Under Biden, a small number of judges were also let go, and that was seen as political and scandalous then to many Republicans.
在拜登的领导下，少数法官也被解雇，这在当时被许多共和党人视为政治性的和可耻的。
It's fair to say, though, that the kind of mass reshaping that's happening now is on a different level.
不过，公平地说，现在正在发生的大规模重塑是在不同的层面上。
Since the Trump administration began, more than 60 judges have been let go, and around 40 resigned, which means, that out of the roughly 700 judges we had pre-Trump, about 100 are gone.
自特朗普政府上台以来，已有超过60名法官被解雇，约40名法官辞职，这意味着，在特朗普上任之前我们拥有的约700名法官中，约有100名法官已经离职。
Recently, the administration has been talking about bringing in 600 military lawyers to serve as temporary judges to speed through the backlog.
最近，政府一直在讨论引进 600 名军事律师担任临时法官，以加快处理积压案件。
Sitting judges we've talked to say they're worried that these new judges won't get enough training, so they'll just rubber stamp anything the administration wants.
我们采访过的现任法官表示，他们担心这些新法官得不到足够的培训，所以他们只会在政府想要的任何事情上盖章。
If all this sounds like the Trump administration is trying to reduce the power of the immigration court and bring it to heel, well, some people think that's way overdue.
如果这一切听起来像是特朗普政府试图削弱移民法庭的权力并使其就范，那么有些人认为这已经太晚了。
We talked to Scott Mechowski, former deputy head of ICE New York.
我们采访了 ICE 纽约分局前副局长 Scott Mechowski。
He was the removal officer for 27 years.
他当了27年的遣返官。
His job was to find immigrants who were here illegally and deport them.
他的工作是寻找非法移民并将他们驱逐出境。
And the way he sees it, the main thing that got in his way-- immigration courts.
在他看来，阻碍他的主要因素是移民法庭。
My colleague Zoe Chace talked to Scott.
我的同事佐伊·查斯与斯科特进行了交谈。
OK, first off, man, it could have been three, four, five years before somebody has a fucking hearing.
好吧，首先，伙计，可能要等三年、四年、五年才能有人举行他妈的听证会。
And then they go to court, and a judge will be like, well, do you have an attorney?
然后他们上法庭，法官会问，好吧，你有律师吗？
No. OK, we're going to adjourn for nine months until you find an attorney, right?
不，好吧，我们要休会九个月，直到你找到律师，对吧？
They get an attorney, then they go, you know what?
他们找了律师，然后就走了，你知道吗？
I want to withdraw this counsel.
我想撤回这个忠告。
OK, I'll give you another nine months.
好吧，我再给你九个月的时间。
There's cases that have been fucking re-calendared for years, for years, right?
有些案件已经他妈地重新安排了很多年了，很多年了，对吧？
And the American people don't understand that.
美国人民不明白这一点。
Yeah, they're like, come back February 3, 2029 or something like that.
是的，他们会说，2029 年 2 月 3 日回来或者类似的事情。
Yes, Zoe, that's exactly the issue.
是的，佐伊，这正是问题所在。
Now, when you're being detained, there is none of that shit.
现在，当你被拘留时，就没有这些狗屎了。
No one's going to leave you in custody for a year and a half, two years before your next hearing date.
没有人会在你下次听证会日期之前将你拘留一年半或两年。
You know I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Now, you could fiddle fuck around and keep going, I appeal.
现在，我呼吁你可以继续胡闹，继续前进。
I do this, I want to do that and stay in custody, which they do.
我这样做，我想这样做，然后继续被拘留，他们就是这么做的。
Wait, so can I just say what I feel like?
等等，我可以直接说一下我的感受吗？
What you're saying is making me think is it's easier just to do the whole process, as much as the process as you can, in a detention setting--
你所说的让我觉得在拘留环境中尽可能多地完成整个过程会更容易——
Yep.
是的。
Zoe Chace --because then you have control over the whole thing, and the person will actually be removed at the end.
Zoe Chace——因为这样你就可以控制整个事情，而这个人最终会被删除。
Zoe, bingo, bingo.
佐伊，宾果，宾果。
Zoe Chace So that's why we're seeing what we're seeing?
佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace） 那么这就是我们所看到的原因？
That's exactly why.
这正是原因。
Look, the only mechanism-- and I'll tell you again-- to ensure removal is detention.
看，确保遣返的唯一机制——我会再次告诉你——就是拘留。
I know it sucks to hear that, right?
我知道听到这个消息很糟糕，对吧？
Say you're in court and you lose your case, Scott says.
斯科特说，假设你在法庭上，但你输了官司。
You're deportable.
你可以被驱逐出境了。
But they don't just throw you on a plane.
但他们不只是把你扔上飞机。
You walk out of the courtroom.
你走出法庭。
The government sends you a letter.
政府给你发了一封信。
Dear so-and-so, you've been ordered deported on this date.
亲爱的某某，您已于这一天被下令驱逐出境。
Please show up at my office in 30 days with one bag weighing no more than 44 pounds for your removal.
请在 30 天内到达我的办公室，携带一件重量不超过 44 磅的行李进行搬运。
As you can imagine, most people don't show up.
正如你可以想象的那样，大多数人都不会出现。
But if they were in detention, Scott says, easy-- ICE can just deport them.
但斯科特说，如果他们被拘留，很容易，ICE 可以将他们驱逐出境。
So he says, anyone with an immigration case, let's just get them into detention and do the whole thing from there.
所以他说，任何有移民案件的人，我们都可以将他们拘留，然后从那里开始一切工作。
The way former New York City immigration Judge Jennifer Durkin sees this, this is exactly what the memos and policy changes are adding up to.
前纽约市移民法官詹妮弗·德金 (Jennifer Durkin) 认为，这正是备忘录和政策变化所体现的内容。
Detention is the point.
拘留是重点。
I mean, they'll say it's to efficiently and orderly, I guess, decide the cases.
我的意思是，他们会说，我想，这是为了高效、有序地裁决案件。
But I think detention and the constraints that places on people is the point.
但我认为拘留和对人们施加的限制才是重点。
Because then people will be getting out.
因为那时人们就会出去。
Take orders, yeah.
接受命令，是的。
Nadia Reiman They'll self-deport because being in detention is terrible, even in the best of circumstances.
纳迪亚·雷曼（Nadia Reiman）：他们会自我驱逐出境，因为即使在最好的情况下，被拘留也是可怕的。
Or if they don't, the government will do the job for them.
或者，如果他们不这样做，政府也会为他们做这项工作。
I spent a lot of time while I was reporting this story trying to put together the puzzle pieces and see what this all adds up to.
在报道这个故事时，我花了很多时间试图将拼图拼凑起来，看看这一切加起来会产生什么结果。
What does the Trump administration want the immigration courts to be?
特朗普政府希望移民法庭是什么样的？
In the end, I don't think it's that complicated.
最后，我认为事情没有那么复杂。
Trump made a promise of mass deportations, so he's finding a way for the courts to not get in the way.
特朗普承诺进行大规模驱逐，因此他正在寻找一种方法，让法院不妨碍他。
His people are good at this sort of thing-- pulling any lever available to them, showing every institution exactly where their power ends.
他的手下擅长这类事情——拉动他们可以利用的任何杠杆，向每个机构准确地展示他们权力的尽头。
And if judges are the obstacle, like wrenches in the gears of the mass deportation machine, that's no problem.
如果法官是障碍，就像大规模驱逐机齿轮上的扳手一样，那就没问题了。
There are a few ways to put pressure on a judge to co-sign on deportations.
有几种方法可以向法官施加压力，要求其在驱逐出境问题上共同签署。
You can change procedure, the rules of the court.
你可以改变法庭的程序和规则。
That's what the memos did.
这就是备忘录的作用。
You can intimidate-- the firings, the threat of more firings coming up every few weeks.
你可以恐吓——解雇，威胁每隔几周就会有更多解雇。
And there's one more cleaner, more direct and effective way if you run the DOJ-- change the case law, set new legal precedents, precedents that judges now have to follow, which is exactly what Trump's DOJ has been doing.
如果你管理司法部，还有一种更干净、更直接、更有效的方法——改变判例法，制定新的法律先例，法官现在必须遵循的先例，这正是特朗普的司法部一直在做的事情。
Since March, decisions have been coming fast and furious out of the Board of Immigration Appeals, setting new legal precedents for how things will work now.
自三月份以来，移民上诉委员会迅速做出了一系列决定，为现在的运作方式树立了新的法律先例。
For example, the Trump administration has narrowed the kinds of cases that are eligible for asylum and made it much harder to prove them.
例如，特朗普政府缩小了有资格获得庇护的案件种类，并加大了证明这些案件的难度。
Also maybe the biggest change-- any undocumented person, even if they have a legal case in process, even if they've been in the US for a decade, they can now be detained indefinitely.
也许还有最大的变化——任何无证人员，即使他们正在处理法律案件，即使他们已经在美国生活了十年，他们现在也可以被无限期拘留。
Before, you could post bond and get out while you fight your case.
以前，您可以在交纳保释金后在案件审理过程中出狱。
Now, no more bond.
现在，不再有任何羁绊。
Just detention, nothing but detention, potentially for millions of people.
只是拘留，只不过是拘留，可能会关押数百万人。
And in a big-picture way, there's no one left at the top to disagree with all these big changes.
从大局来看，高层没有人不同意所有这些重大变化。
Because a month into the new administration, the DOJ removed nearly half the judges on the Board of Immigration Appeals-- everyone who'd been appointed under Biden, pretty much.
因为新政府上台一个月后，司法部就撤掉了移民上诉委员会近一半的法官——几乎都是拜登领导下任命的法官。
So all this new case law now matches the Trump policy objectives almost completely.
因此，所有这些新判例法现在几乎完全符合特朗普的政策目标。
And the judges, of course, have to adhere to it.
当然，法官也必须遵守它。
So say this all works out the way the Trump administration seems to be hoping, and we start detaining more people and having them do their entire legal process from detention.
所以说，这一切都按照特朗普政府希望的方式进行，我们开始拘留更多的人，并让他们完成从拘留开始的整个法律程序。
What does that actually look like?
那实际上是什么样子的？
What's the result when you put all these cases inside that used to be outside?
当你把所有这些原本在外面的箱子放进里面时，会产生什么结果呢？
I want to tell you about one person who had to do this, had to navigate this new world of detain now, figure it out from there.
我想告诉你们，有一个人必须这样做，必须在这个新的拘留世界中航行，从那里找出答案。
It's a case from where we started-- New York.
这是我们开始的案例——纽约。
And the reason I want to take you through his story is because it illustrates the positive side of what the Trump administration is doing.
我之所以想带大家了解他的故事，是因为它说明了特朗普政府正在做的事情的积极一面。
His case speeds to a quick resolution, and it also illustrates the downside, which I'll get to.
他的案子很快得到了解决，同时也说明了其缺点，我稍后会谈到。
I'm going to call this person David.
我要称呼这个人为大卫。
He's an asylum seeker.
他是一名寻求庇护者。
David's from Ecuador.
大卫来自厄瓜多尔。
I talked with him on the phone.
我通过电话与他交谈。
When I asked him about his life in New York, which was only five months, listen to the feeling.
当我问他在纽约的生活时，只有五个月，听听感受。
You can hear him smiling.
你可以听到他在微笑。
David loved New York, like many gay men before him.
大卫热爱纽约，就像他之前的许多同性恋者一样。
He was happy here.
他在这里很开心。
Back in Ecuador, he actually ran this drag club.
回到厄瓜多尔后，他实际上经营着这个变装俱乐部。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Nadia Reiman It's Time to Get it On-- that's the name of the place.
[说西班牙语] Nadia Reiman 是时候开始了——这就是这个地方的名字。
Because he says, when you do drag, you get on your heels.
因为他说，当你拖拉时，你就会跟上。
You get on your wig and whatever else you want to get on.
你戴上假发和任何你想戴的东西。
David told me that, in Ecuador, it's not an automatic death sentence to be gay like it is in some places.
大卫告诉我，在厄瓜多尔，同性恋并不像某些地方那样自动被判死刑。
There's gay marriage, for example.
例如，有同性婚姻。
But for him, it got really bad there because he had dated a politician who was closeted.
但对他来说，情况变得非常糟糕，因为他和一位未出柜的政客约会过。
After they broke up, he came after David.
他们分手后，他开始追求大卫。
David thinks he sent cops to harass him, smashed up his car.
大卫认为他派警察骚扰他，砸毁了他的车。
So David moved to the capital, Quito, to get away from this guy.
于是大卫搬到了首都基多，以远离这个家伙。
And he says the politician and his people followed him-- beat him up so badly he woke up at the police station hours later, not knowing how he got there.
他说，这位政客和他的人民跟踪了他——把他殴打得很厉害，几个小时后，他在警察局醒来，不知道自己是怎么到那里的。
This was the moment that David thought, I'm not safe anywhere in Ecuador.
就在那一刻，大卫想，我在厄瓜多尔的任何地方都不安全。
He decided to leave.
他决定离开。
And he did everything our government told him to do in order to come here the right way.
他做了我们政府告诉他的一切，以便以正确的方式来到这里。
He entered the United States without breaking any laws.
他进入美国并没有违反任何法律。
He crossed at a border checkpoint, which is legal.
他通过了边境检查站，这是合法的。
He used the official government app to schedule his crossing, which is how we told immigrants to do it at that time.
他使用官方的政府应用程序来安排他的过境时间，这就是我们当时告诉移民的方式。
It meant he waited for months till it was his turn.
这意味着他等了几个月才轮到他。
And once he was here, he had permission to work.
一旦他来到这里，他就获得了工作许可。
And now he was going through the required process to stay.
现在他正在办理留下来所需的程序。
It was all above board.
一切都是光明正大的。
David has a sister who lives in New York.
大卫有一个住在纽约的妹妹。
He's 33, number six out of nine siblings.
他今年 33 岁，在九个兄弟姐妹中排行第六。
He decided to go stay with her, live his New York dream.
他决定和她住在一起，实现他的纽约梦想。
And he got a job he liked, doing marketing for a supermarket chain.
他找到了一份他喜欢的工作，为一家连锁超市做营销。
And he met someone.
他遇到了一个人。
[LAUGHTER] Nadia Reiman David says, the first thing he remembers is he asked me if I could speak English, and I was like, nope.
[笑声] 纳迪亚·雷曼·大卫 (Nadia Reiman David) 说，他记得的第一件事是他问我是否会说英语，我的回答是，不。
The man that would become his boyfriend didn't let that stop him.
那个将成为他男朋友的男人并没有让这阻止他。
He sat on the sidewalk with David and Google Translate, and they talked for hours.
他和大卫一起坐在人行道上，使用谷歌翻译，他们聊了几个小时。
David was like, he's cute.
大卫说，他很可爱。
They started dating.
他们开始约会。
And then David gets his first immigration court date.
然后大卫得到了他的第一次移民法庭约会。
It's a routine scheduling hearing at the courthouse downtown on June 4.
这是 6 月 4 日在市中心法院举行的例行听证会。
He wants to be prepared.
他想要做好准备。
So ahead of time, he goes to a law clinic, gets help with his asylum application, makes two copies-- one for himself, one for the judge.
因此，他提前去了一家法律诊所，寻求庇护申请方面的帮助，并复印了两份——一份给自己，一份给法官。
But he was watching the news and started to see that ICE was picking up people in the courthouse.
但他在看新闻时开始看到 ICE 正在法院抓人。
I was afraid to go, David says, but my boyfriend insisted.
大卫说，我不敢去，但我男朋友坚持要去。
He was like, you want to do things the right way.
他说，你想以正确的方式做事。
So David wakes up the morning of his hearing, puts on his suit to go to work.
因此，大卫在听证会当天早上醒来，穿上西装去上班。
He was hoping, if it all went well, it would just be a quick thing, and he'd go to work right after.
他希望，如果一切顺利的话，这会是一件很快的事情，然后他就可以去上班了。
And he heads downtown.
然后他前往市中心。
He says there were bad signs along the way.
他说一路上有不好的迹象。
Like at breakfast, they wouldn't serve him and his friends.
就像早餐时一样，他们不会为他和他的朋友提供服务。
It took forever.
这花了很长时间。
And then he dropped all these napkins.
然后他扔掉了所有这些餐巾纸。
They blew everywhere in the wind.
它们被风吹得到处都是。
It was like a dark omen.
这就像一个黑暗的预兆。
When he finally got to court, he sat in the waiting room, went in front of the judge when it was his turn, offered the two copies of his asylum application, and the judge didn't take them.
当他最终到达法庭时，他坐在候诊室，轮到法官时，他走到法官面前，提供了两份庇护申请副本，但法官没有接受。
He heard the DHS attorney ask for his case to be dismissed.
他听到国土安全部律师要求驳回他的案件。
He heard the judge agree to the dismissal.
他听到法官同意解雇。
Because he'd been watching the news, he knew what that meant.
因为他一直在看新闻，所以他知道这意味着什么。
As soon as he walked out of the courtroom, ICE officers cuffed him and walked him to the elevator.
当他走出法庭时，ICE 官员给他戴上手铐，并送他到电梯。
I went into shock, he says.
“我很震惊，”他说。
All I did was walk.
我所做的就是步行。
I didn't know what was going to happen, what was happening.
我不知道会发生什么，正在发生什么。
I didn't feel hot or cold or sadness or happiness, just nothing.
我没有感到热、冷、悲伤或快乐，什么都没有。
They cuffed my waist, my feet, my hands, and they took me down to the parking lot.
他们铐住我的腰、脚、手，然后把我带到停车场。
I tried every time I could to tell my boyfriend what was going on, David says.
大卫说，我尽一切努力告诉我男朋友发生了什么事。
And the last message that I sent him, that he still can't forget, is when I texted him, they're taking me.
我发给他的最后一条信息，他至今都无法忘记，是当我给他发短信时，他们正在带走我。
David got held on the 10th floor at 26 Federal Plaza in New York for three days.
大卫被关押在纽约联邦广场26号10楼三天。
There's a holding cell there that's supposed to be temporary, but this summer has become the de facto detention center.
那里有一间本来应该是临时的拘留室，但今年夏天已经成为事实上的拘留中心。
And all reports out of there say that it is rank.
那里的所有报告都说这是等级。
David says it was so packed in there you could only sleep standing up.
大卫说那里太拥挤了，你只能站着睡觉。
David then got sent to a detention center in Newark, New Jersey.
大卫随后被送往新泽西州纽瓦克的拘留中心。
He would be there for about 10 days.
他会在那里呆大约10天。
While he was there, he kept asking ICE to let him do a credible fear interview, which is one of the first steps in the asylum process.
当他在那里时，他一直要求 ICE 让他进行一次可信的恐惧访谈，这是庇护程序的第一步。
He was like, I had my application.
他说，我有我的申请。
I'm afraid to return to Ecuador.
我害怕返回厄瓜多尔。
He says the ICE officers would just stare at him and not say anything back, or they would tell him to do it in writing, which he did.
他说，ICE 官员只会盯着他看，不会说什么，或者他们会告诉他以书面形式这样做，他照做了。
There was no response.
没有回应。
He never got an interview-- just to say he's supposed to get one as soon as he asks.
他从未接受过采访——只是说他一提出要求就应该得到采访。
ICE is supposed to facilitate it, but that doesn't mean they always do.
ICE 应该会促进这一点，但这并不意味着他们总是这样做。
And this, judges and immigration lawyers told me, is one of the biggest problems with having people pursue their cases from inside detention.
法官和移民律师告诉我，这是让人们在拘留所内处理案件的最大问题之一。
ICE sometimes ignores the legal process, and the detainees don't have much access to a lawyer to force them to follow it.
ICE 有时会忽视法律程序，被拘留者也没有太多机会联系律师来强迫他们遵守法律程序。
We asked ICE about all of David's claims, including how they ignored his request to get a credible fear interview.
我们向 ICE 询问了 David 的所有说法，包括他们如何无视他进行可信的恐惧访谈的请求。
They didn't respond.
他们没有回应。
One day in June, ICE put David on a flight.
六月的一天，ICE 将大卫送上了飞机。
He didn't know where he was going, and no one told him.
他不知道自己要去哪里，也没有人告诉他。
He was brought to a detention center in Louisiana.
他被带到路易斯安那州的一个拘留中心。
Lots of people with cases from New York get sent down south to Louisiana and Texas, where judges are extremely strict; the case law is harsher against detainees, and there are more detention centers.
许多来自纽约的案件被送往南方的路易斯安那州和德克萨斯州，那里的法官极其严格；判例法对被拘留者更加严厉，拘留中心也更多。
There are so many people there, David says, so many.
大卫说，那里有很多人，很多。
Tons of bunk beds in one giant room, and it was super dirty.
一个巨大的房间里有很多双层床，而且非常脏。
It was unbearably hot, he says.
他说，天气热得难以忍受。
Everyone hung out in their underwear because it was so hot.
由于天气太热，每个人都只穿着内衣在外面闲逛。
I was ready to put up with New Jersey, put up with that as long as I needed to, David says.
“我已经准备好忍受新泽西了，只要我需要，就可以忍受，”大卫说。
But Louisiana, I didn't want to be in Louisiana one more second.
但是路易斯安那州，我一秒钟都不想在路易斯安那州。
He says he was ready to self-deport, but he didn't even think he'd have the right to do that.
他说他已经准备好自我驱逐出境，但他甚至认为自己没有权利这样做。
Two days later, ICE put him on another flight.
两天后，ICE 让他搭乘另一趟航班。
Again, he didn't know where he was going.
再次，他不知道自己要去哪里。
He found out when he landed.
落地后他才发现。
He was back in Ecuador.
他回到了厄瓜多尔。
As soon as he got to Ecuador, David went into hiding.
大卫一到达厄瓜多尔，就躲了起来。
He barely leaves his house, does all of his work from his phone or computer.
他几乎不离开家，所有工作都通过手机或电脑完成。
He's scared his ex-boyfriend, the politician, will know where he is, which is why we can't tell you where in Ecuador he is, or his real name, because David is scared for his life now that our government returned him to the one country where he felt he was in the most danger.
他害怕他的前男友，政客，会知道他在哪里，这就是为什么我们不能告诉你他在厄瓜多尔的哪里，也不能告诉你他的真实姓名，因为大卫现在担心自己的生命安全，因为我们的政府将他送回了他认为自己处境最危险的一个国家。
David's lawyer told me David's asylum case, pretty solid.
大卫的律师告诉我大卫的庇护案，非常可靠。
He was fleeing a government that was actively trying to harm him, and he has documentation showing what happened.
他正在逃离一个积极试图伤害他的政府，他有文件显示发生了什么。
He's exactly the type of case, she thinks, the law is designed to protect.
她认为，他正是法律旨在保护的案件类型。
And at the very least, it's a case that deserves a hearing in front of a judge to figure out what's right.
至少，这个案子值得在法官面前进行听证，以确定什么是正确的。
He never got to do that, though, because our government decided to sweep up all kinds of people-- some with weak cases, some with strong cases-- put them all in detention and leave them to figure out the legal process from there.
但他从来没有这样做过，因为我们的政府决定扫荡各种各样的人——一些案件较弱的人，一些案件严重的人——将他们全部拘留，并让他们从那里弄清楚法律程序。
So David's case went down the way the administration seems to want.
因此，大卫的案子就按照政府希望的方式进行了。
It was decided quickly, and he was deported right away.
决定很快，他立即被驱逐出境。
The whole thing took about three weeks, but it only went so fast because we skipped the part where he got due process.
整个事情花了大约三周的时间，但进展得这么快，因为我们跳过了他获得正当程序的部分。
This is what our new immigration system is starting to look like right now.
这就是我们新的移民制度现在开始的样子。
This is what it's becoming.
这就是它正在变成的样子。
Nadia Reiman is one of the producers of our show.
纳迪亚·雷曼 (Nadia Reiman) 是我们节目的制片人之一。
David, by the way, is now part of a lawsuit against the federal government about these courthouse detentions and due process.
顺便说一句，大卫现在正参与针对联邦政府的这些法院拘留和正当程序诉讼。
Just today, as we're finishing the show that you're listening to right now, we heard that five more judges got fired.
就在今天，当我们结束您现在正在收听的节目时，我们听说又有五名评委被解雇。
Credits Ira Glass Well, our program was reported and produced today by Nadia Reiman and Zoe Chace, with help from Angela Gervasi, who was edited by Laura Starecheski.
图片来源：Ira Glass 嗯，我们的节目今天由 Nadia Reiman 和 Zoe Chace 报道并制作，并得到了 Angela Gervasi 的帮助，而 Angela Gervasi 的编辑则是 Laura Starecheski。
The people who put together today's show include Michael Comite, Suzanne Garber, Cassie Howley, Seth Lind, Tobin low, Katherine Rae Mando, Steve Nelson, Ryan Rumery, Alyssa Shipp, Christopher Swetala, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Michael Comite、Suzanne Garber、Cassie Howley、Seth Lind、Tobin low、Katherine Rae Mando、Steve Nelson、Ryan Rumery、Alyssa Shipp、Christopher Swetala 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Kevin Gregg from Kurtzban Kurtzban Tetzeli and Pratt, Lindsey Gauzza, Cheryl David, Allison Cutler, Benjamin Remy, Jeremy deVine, Dana Leigh Marks, Elizabeth Young, Matt O'Brien, Brian Lonergan, RJ Hauman, Britney Dickerson, Jacob Martinez, Kristin Kepplinger, Lauren Kostes, and Heather Betz from the New York Legal Assistance Group, Aaron Reichlin-Melnick, Joseph Gunther, Caitlin Patler, Mary Georgevich and the National Immigrant Justice Center.
今天特别感谢来自 Kurtzban 的 Kevin Gregg Kurtzban Tetzeli 和 Pratt、Lindsey Gauzza、Cheryl David、Allison Cutler、Benjamin Remy、Jeremy deVine、Dana Leigh Marks、Elizabeth Young、Matt O'Brien、Brian Lonergan、RJ Hauman、Britney Dickerson、Jacob Martinez、Kristin Kepplinger、Lauren Kostes 和纽约法律援助小组的 Heather Betz、Aaron赖克林-梅尔尼克、约瑟夫·冈瑟、凯特琳·帕特勒、玛丽·乔治维奇和国家移民司法中心。
Also thanks to all the other former immigration judges who talked to us about the court.
还要感谢所有其他与我们谈论法院的前移民法官。
A reminder that if you sign up to be a Life Partner with our program, you get ad-free listening.
提醒您，如果您注册成为我们计划的终身合作伙伴，您将获得无广告的聆听体验。
You get bonus episodes, and you get an archive of over 250 greatest hits episodes right in your podcast feed.
您可以获得奖励剧集，并且可以在您的播客提要中获得超过 250 个最热门剧集的存档。
So anytime you need something to listen to, there's something good right there.
因此，无论何时您需要听点什么，这里都有好听的东西。
And of course, by becoming a Life Partner, you're helping us keep making this show, doing projects like this one where we're calling judges for months and months.
当然，通过成为终身伴侣，你可以帮助我们继续制作这个节目，做这样的项目，我们会花上几个月的时间来召集评委。
To sign up, go to thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.
如需注册，请访问 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
There was a farmer had a dog And Torey knows his name-o.
有一个农夫养了一只狗，托里知道他的名字——o。
Bingo.
宾果游戏。
Bingo.
宾果游戏。
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass, Back, next week with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），回来了，下周我会带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。