867: College Disorientation - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #867 | September 12, 2025 867: College Disorientation Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 867 集 | 2025 年 9 月 12 日 867：大学迷失方向 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
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Prologue: Prologue Emanuele Berry From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Emanuele Berry，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Emanuele Berry, filling in for Ira Glass.
我是埃马努埃莱·贝里（Emanuele Berry），接替艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）。
OK, school is back.
好的，学校回来了。
Come with me now.
现在跟我来吧。
We're going to Tempe, Arizona.
我们要去亚利桑那州坦佩。
Hello, guys.
哈喽，伙计们。
Can I have your attention?
我可以引起你的注意吗？
Guys, guys, guys.
伙计们，伙计们，伙计们。
Arizona State University has set up everything you can think of-- karaoke, scavenger hunts, ax throwing, a mechanical bull-- to help new students meet each other and make friends.
亚利桑那州立大学设置了你能想到的一切——卡拉OK、寻宝游戏、投掷斧头、机械公牛——来帮助新生互相认识并结交朋友。
[CROWD CHEERING] Emanuele Berry This is international student orientation.
[人群欢呼] Emanuele Berry 这是国际学生迎新活动。
There are almost 400 new students here from India, China, and lots of other countries who arrived here alone, looking for any excuse to make a connection.
这里有近 400 名来自印度、中国和许多其他国家的新生，他们独自来到这里，寻找任何借口建立联系。
Like, these two uncomfortable-looking guys, Nyle and Saud.
就像，这两个看起来不舒服的家伙，奈尔和沙特。
One wears an ASU cap.
其中一人戴着 ASU 帽子。
The other has stylish black glasses.
另一个戴着时尚的黑色眼镜。
They both have braces.
他们都戴着牙套。
They talk to my coworker Miki Meek.
他们和我的同事米基·米克交谈。
We just met right now.
我们现在才认识。
Miki Meek You guys just met--
米基·米克 你们刚刚认识——
Yeah, we just met right now.
是的，我们现在才认识。
We clicked.
我们点击了。
What made you guys click?
是什么让你们点击了？
Nyle Well, he was standing there alone.
奈尔 好吧，他独自站在那里。
I was standing there alone.
我独自站在那里。
So I was thinking, I'm like, should I go?
所以我在想，我应该去吗？
Should I not?
我不应该吗？
Is it hard to make yourself go up and say hi?
让自己上去打个招呼很难吗？
Yeah, a bit.
是的，有一点。
But then I decided to.
但后来我决定这么做。
Yeah.
是的。
So I just went up there.
所以我就去了那里。
I just said hi, asked him what his major was.
我只是打个招呼，问他专业是什么。
Did you feel any relief when he came up and said hi?
当他走过来打招呼时，你有没有感到轻松一些？
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
There's a thing that I really don't like about myself that I don't really greet people or approach people.
我真的不喜欢自己的一件事，那就是我不太会和人打招呼或接近人。
I need people to approach me.
我需要人们接近我。
But at the same time, I really want to meet new people, but I don't know how to do that.
但同时，我真的很想结识新朋友，但我不知道该怎么做。
[LAUGHTER] Emanuele Berry Over 1 million students from all around the world study in the United States.
[笑声] Emanuele Berry 来自世界各地的超过 100 万学生在美国学习。
ASU has over 14,000.
亚利桑那州立大学拥有超过 14,000 名学生。
Standing near the mechanical bull is Anushka and her newly-made friend Krisha, both from India, both computer science majors.
站在机械公牛旁边的是阿努什卡和她的新朋友克里莎，他们都来自印度，都是计算机科学专业。
How many friends do you think you've made today?
你认为你今天交了多少朋友？
So probably my Instagram is increased for 100 followers or something today.
所以今天我的 Instagram 粉丝可能增加了 100 名左右。
How about you?
你呢？
How many friends have you made today, do you feel like?
今天你交了几个朋友，你觉得怎么样？
I believe 10, 15, 20.
我相信10、15、20。
I'm giving, like, a rough idea.
我正在给出一个粗略的想法。
Bro, you guys are saying 100.
兄弟，你说的是100。
At least I'm giving a reasonable number.
至少我给出了一个合理的数字。
Anushka is having a great time, but there is someone she was hoping to meet here who is not here, her roommate, whose visa was rejected just two weeks before school started.
阿努什卡玩得很开心，但她希望在这里见到的一个人却不在这里，她的室友，他的签证在开学前两周被拒绝了。
They made a bunch of plans.
他们制定了一系列计划。
Making friends together and figuring out which clubs to join, I think that was our initial plan.
一起结交朋友并确定加入哪些俱乐部，我认为这是我们最初的计划。
Probably hiking and some sports kind of stuff.
可能是徒步旅行和一些运动之类的东西。
I'm a hockey player, so, yeah.
我是一名曲棍球运动员，所以，是的。
Does she know why her visa got rejected?
她知道为什么她的签证被拒绝吗？
I honestly don't know.
老实说我不知道。
Krisha People are not that comfortable sharing why their visa got rejected.
Krisha 人们不愿意分享他们的签证被拒绝的原因。
Because it could be a very personal reason-- something that's Instagram, something foolish being found out because they're screening everything.
因为这可能是一个非常个人的原因——就像 Instagram 一样，因为他们筛选一切而被发现是愚蠢的。
So if you have your Instagram four years back, you're just joining high school, you must have put something foolish on it that they did not like.
所以，如果你四年前就有了 Instagram，当时你刚刚上高中，你一定在上面放了一些他们不喜欢的愚蠢的东西。
So it could be that.
所以可能是这样。
Krisha also had a friend whose visa was rejected.
克里沙还有一个朋友的签证被拒。
In fact, it was a person she went to for advice on her own student visa interview.
事实上，她曾向一个人寻求有关她自己的学生签证面试的建议。
She met him on an online ASU forum.
她是在亚利桑那州立大学的一个在线论坛上认识他的。
My friend got rejected, so I was kind of bummed because I knew him, and we had talked for a very long time, so we got along.
我的朋友被拒绝了，所以我有点沮丧，因为我认识他，而且我们聊了很长时间，所以我们相处得很好。
So him not coming, I was kind of bummed.
所以他没有来，我有点沮丧。
And his visa getting rejected was kind of a shocking thing for me.
他的签证被拒绝对我来说是一件令人震惊的事情。
This is her friend Karthik.
这是她的朋友卡蒂克。
That's not his real name.
那不是他的真名。
He talked to me from India.
他从印度和我说话。
Everything was done.
一切都完成了。
I had my flight booked.
我已经预订了航班。
I had my offer letter.
我收到了录取通知书。
I had my scholarship.
我有奖学金。
I had my fund sorted.
我已经整理了我的基金。
I was already in US in my mind.
我心里已经在美国了。
Karthik had really planned out his life at ASU.
卡蒂克确实规划了他在亚利桑那州立大学的生活。
He chose the school because they had one of the few programs specifically for fintech in the country.
他选择这所学校是因为他们拥有该国为数不多的专门针对金融科技的项目之一。
He'd picked out his dorm room.
他已经选好了自己的宿舍。
He knew which clubs he wanted to join, what road trips he wanted to take.
他知道他想加入哪些俱乐部，他想参加哪些公路旅行。
He wanted to go to LA.
他想去洛杉矶。
He'd even researched where he was going to eat, picked out an Indian restaurant called Dhaba that he decided would be his go-to.
他甚至研究了要去哪里吃饭，挑选了一家名为 Dhaba 的印度餐厅，他决定去那里。
And it looked tasty.
而且看起来很好吃。
Emanuele Berry What he didn't account for was a shift in policy by the Trump administration, which wants fewer foreign students coming to the United States.
埃马努埃莱·贝里（Emanuele Berry）他没有考虑到特朗普政府的政策转变，即希望减少来美国的外国学生。
So this year, there are stricter screenings, more visa rejections.
所以今年，审查更加严格，签证被拒的次数也增多。
Estimates are 150,000 fewer student visas will be approved.
预计批准的学生签证数量将减少 150,000 份。
When Karthik went to the US embassy for his visa interview, he saw this play out.
当卡蒂克去美国大使馆进行签证面试时，他看到了这一幕。
He waited in a long line for hours, dressed in a light blue button down shirt, suit jacket and trousers.
他穿着浅蓝色系扣衬衫、西装外套和裤子，排了好几个小时的队。
His research showed that you were supposed to dress up.
他的研究表明你应该盛装打扮。
Finally, he almost reached the interview window.
终于，他快到了面试窗口。
I had five guys in front of me, and I can hear everyone.
我前面有五个人，我能听到每个人的声音。
I can hear them.
我能听到他们的声音。
The visa officer was a lady, and she rejected all five of them.
签证官是位女士，五人都被她拒绝了。
Under two minutes, she did five rejections in two minutes.
不到两分钟，她在两分钟内就拒绝了五次。
Wait, under two minutes, under two minutes, five people--
等等，不到两分钟，不到两分钟，五个人——
In two minutes.
两分钟后。
Emanuele Berry --she's like rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection.
埃马努埃莱·贝瑞——她就像拒绝、拒绝、拒绝、拒绝。
Yes.
是的。
Emanuele Berry And of course, when he got to the window, she rejected him, handed him a slip of paper, sent him on his way.
埃马努埃莱·贝里 当然，当他走到窗前时，她拒绝了他，递给他一张纸条，送他上路。
Karthik had to scramble to try and enroll quickly in a school in India.
卡蒂克不得不争先恐后地尝试快速进入印度的一所学校。
He really didn't understand why he was rejected.
他实在不明白自己为什么会被拒绝。
He knew lots of kids got rejected each year, but he thought he was the perfect candidate.
他知道每年都有很多孩子被拒绝，但他认为自己是完美的候选人。
He had good grades.
他成绩很好。
He had bank statements that show that he had money to cover his expenses for all four years.
他的银行对账单显示他有足够的钱支付四年的开支。
And he planned to return to India to run his dad's business.
他计划返回印度经营他父亲的生意。
They want proof that you're likely to return home after study.
他们想要证明你可能在学习后回家。
His rejection-- it just didn't make sense.
他的拒绝——这根本没有道理。
He's not alone.
他并不孤单。
Things are different on college campuses this year.
今年大学校园的情况有所不同。
And it's not just for international students.
这不仅仅适用于国际学生。
So many things about college have been upended by a wave of executive orders and lawsuits by the Trump administration.
关于大学的很多事情都被特朗普政府的一波行政命令和诉讼所颠覆。
The rules have changed.
规则已经改变。
In a matter of months, there have been grant suspensions, frozen research projects and funding, DEI bans, accreditation overhauls, hundreds of millions of dollars of settlements with Ivy League schools, and personal battles that have ousted university presidents.
在短短几个月内，就出现了拨款暂停、研究项目和资金冻结、DEI 禁令、认证改革、与常春藤盟校达成数亿美元和解，以及导致大学校长下台的个人斗争。
Today on our show, we'll hear from people all trying to find their footing right now, puzzling out what's OK and what's not.
今天在我们的节目中，我们将听到人们都在努力寻找自己的立足点，困惑什么是可以的，什么是不行的。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
Today's show-- College Disorientation.
今天的节目——大学迷失方向。
But before we get started with our first act, there is one thing that I want to note.
但在我们开始第一幕之前，我想注意一件事。
Today's episode is about college campuses.
今天的节目是关于大学校园的。
And this week, there was some big news from a college campus.
本周，大学校园传来了一些重大新闻。
Charlie Kirk, a founder of Turning Point USA, was shot and killed.
美国转折点创始人查理柯克被枪杀。
Kirk was a key voice in pushing for a lot of policies and directives rolling out at colleges and universities right now.
柯克是推动目前在学院和大学推出的许多政策和指令的关键人物。
We've been working on this episode for months.
我们已经为这一集工作了几个月。
It's not about Turning Point USA or anything related to what happened this week.
这与美国转折点或与本周发生的事情无关。
OK, so for the first act of our show, we're going to follow one student into college, a girl named Nevaeh Parker in Utah.
好的，在我们节目的第一幕中，我们将跟随一名学生进入大学，她是来自犹他州的一个名叫 Nevaeh Parker 的女孩。
This story takes place at the University of Utah, not to be confused with Utah Valley University, where Charlie Kirk was shot and killed.
这个故事发生在犹他大学，不要与查理·柯克被枪杀的犹他谷大学混淆。
This story predates all that.
这个故事早于这一切。
I started following Nevaeh a year ago.
一年前我开始关注 Nevaeh。
This is act one of our show.
这是我们节目的第一幕。
Act One, My Black President.
第一幕，我的黑人总统。
I want to tell you about what happened when Nevaeh went to college because I think it shows what this new college landscape might look like.
我想告诉你内瓦上大学时发生的事情，因为我认为它展示了新的大学景观可能是什么样子。
But first, a little bit about who she was before.
但首先，我们先来了解一下她以前是谁。
From a young age, Nevaeh has been the type of person to see a problem and say, we can fix that.
从很小的时候起，内瓦就是那种看到问题就会说“我们可以解决这个问题”的人。
Not just we can fix that, but I can fix that.
不仅我们可以解决这个问题，我也可以解决这个问题。
I'll take that on.
我会接受的。
When she was 14 years old, she went to her first protest.
当她14岁时，她第一次参加抗议活动。
George Floyd had just been killed.
乔治·弗洛伊德刚刚被杀。
And she didn't just march.
她不只是游行。
She got on stage, and she read a poem about senseless hate and speaking up.
她登上舞台，读了一首关于毫无意义的仇恨和大声疾呼的诗。
She's like, I, a 14-year-old Black girl in Utah, have the power to combat this thing.
她说，我，一个犹他州的 14 岁黑人女孩，有能力对抗这件事。
In high school, Nevaeh created a Black Student Union.
高中时，内瓦创建了黑人学生会。
She wanted a BSU because she and the 10 other Black students-- Utah is pretty white-- were constantly dealing with racist BS from other students and teachers.
她想要进入 BSU，因为她和其他 10 名黑人学生——犹他州是相当白人——经常与其他学生和老师的种族主义废话打交道。
She'd promote the clubs meetings on the morning announcements, part of her duties as student body president.
她会在早上的公告中宣传俱乐部会议，这是她作为学生会主席职责的一部分。
Of course, she was student body president.
当然，她是学生会主席。
I would say it with a lot of passion, like come and join!
我会充满激情地说，喜欢来加入！
Because people, I feel like their teachers weren't really telling them about it, and so I wanted them to know.
因为人们，我觉得他们的老师并没有真正告诉他们这件事，所以我想让他们知道。
OK, wait.
好的，等等。
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
等等，等等，等等，等等，等等。
Let me see.
让我看看。
Let me see.
让我看看。
Good morning, Royals.
早上好，皇家队。
Welcome back to our beautiful sunny Monday.
欢迎回到我们美丽阳光明媚的星期一。
This week is filled with lots of fun activities for all of us to be a part of.
本周充满了许多有趣的活动供我们所有人参与。
The Black Student Union is going to have a meeting up in room 302.
黑人学生会将在 302 室举行会议。
Make sure to stop by and meet friends.
请务必停下来与朋友见面。
Nevaeh went to the University of Utah.
内瓦去了犹他大学。
She became the president of the Black Student Union, of course.
当然，她成为了黑人学生会主席。
And she continued to do what she'd done in high school, eagerly try and bring in new students, create a community.
她继续做她在高中时所做的事情，热切地尝试引进新学生，创建一个社区。
Here she is talking to some freshmen while tabling outside the union.
在这里，她正在工会外面与一些新生交谈。
Good.
好的。
What are your names?
你们叫什么名字？
Zeinab Zeinab.
泽纳布 泽纳布。
Zeinab?
泽纳布？
That's beautiful.
那好美丽。
And what's your name?
你叫什么名字？
Yeah Nevaeh Parker That's so beautiful, I love that.
是的，Nevaeh Parker 太漂亮了，我喜欢。
Have you guys heard of the Black Student Union here?
你们听说过这里的黑人学生会吗？
Yes.
是的。
Period.
时期。
Have you been to any of our events?
您参加过我们的活动吗？
OK, T.
好的，T。
All right, so you don't need the whole spiel, but do you guys want a tote bag?
好吧，所以你们不需要整篇大论，但是你们想要一个手提包吗？
The University of Utah's a big school with over 35,000 students, but only a small number of those are Black students, barely over 1%.
犹他大学是一所大学校，拥有超过 35,000 名学生，但其中只有一小部分是黑人学生，勉强超过 1%。
Black students at the University of Utah do seem to have one thing in common, which is they didn't want to go to the University of Utah.
犹他大学的黑人学生似乎有一个共同点，那就是他们不想去犹他大学。
I heard this from all of the Black students I talked to, including Nevaeh.
我从所有与我交谈过的黑人学生那里听到了这一点，包括内瓦。
They wanted to go to Howard or somewhere more diverse or just get out of Utah.
他们想去霍华德或更多元化的地方，或者干脆离开犹他州。
But they came around on the University, in part, because of the Black Student Union.
但他们在大学问题上的态度有所转变，部分原因是黑人学生会。
Nevaeh had met some of her best friends at the BSU.
内瓦在 BSU 结识了一些她最好的朋友。
They had a real community on campus.
他们在校园里有一个真正的社区。
It's hard to feel welcome on a predominantly white campus.
在一个以白人为主的校园里很难感到受欢迎。
I know.
我知道。
I went from an extremely diverse high school to a small, mostly white college to play basketball, and I struggled.
我从一所极其多元化的高中转到一所小型的、以白人为主的大学打篮球，我很挣扎。
I remember literally scanning the tiny campus as I walked to class, looking for any other Black face, and often finding none.
我记得当我步行去上课时，仔细地扫描了这个小小的校园，寻找其他黑人面孔，但常常一无所获。
I left that school.
我离开了那所学校。
I never found a place where I felt like myself.
我从来没有找到一个让我感觉像我自己的地方。
When Nevaeh and the other students at the University talk about what the Black Student Union meant to them, I felt a little jealous.
当内瓦和大学里的其他学生谈论黑人学生会对他们意味着什么时，我感到有点嫉妒。
At Utah, they had biweekly kickbacks and movie nights, study sessions, and threw big parties.
在犹他州，他们每两周有一次回扣、电影之夜、学习课程，并举办大型派对。
And they had the Black Cultural Center, the BSU's home on campus, a literal two-story brick house.
他们还有黑人文化中心，这是 BSU 在校园里的家，一座真正的两层砖房。
After a day of often being the only Black person in classes--
在经常成为班上唯一的黑人的一天之后——
I could literally just walk around through the back door, and I felt like I was wanted there.
我实际上可以从后门走来走去，我感觉那里需要我。
I feel like having Black friends at the U was really just like, OK, this is what you can hold on to.
我觉得在大学里有黑人朋友真的就像，好吧，这就是你可以坚持的东西。
I feel like everyone there wanted to just be--
我觉得那里的每个人都想——
You could just be a Black person on a college campus is kind of what you're saying?
你可能只是在大学校园里成为一个黑人，就像你所说的那样？
And then last year, all that changed.
然后去年，一切都改变了。
The state of Utah passed an anti-DEI law, meaning no more Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion at any state institutions.
犹他州通过了一项反 DEI 法律，这意味着任何国家机构都不再具有多样性、公平性和包容性。
The law bans devoting any resources-- money, scholarships, mentoring-- to any specific identity group, like, say, a Black student organization.
法律禁止将任何资源——金钱、奖学金、指导——投入到任何特定的身份群体，比如黑人学生组织。
If public universities didn't comply, they would risk losing their funding.
如果公立大学不遵守规定，他们将面临失去资金的风险。
Nevaeh was president of the Black Student Union that was funded by the University.
内瓦是该大学资助的黑人学生会主席。
So she has to figure out what does this mean for them?
所以她必须弄清楚这对他们意味着什么？
Can a Black Student Union still exist under this law?
根据该法律，黑人学生会还能存在吗？
These kinds of anti-DEI laws are reshaping college campuses across the country.
这些反 DEI 法律正在重塑全国各地的大学校园。
Utah was ahead of most of the country.
犹他州领先于全国大部分地区。
They passed their anti-DEI law a year ago.
他们一年前通过了反 DEI 法。
So they were figuring out how this worked before it went nationwide.
因此，他们在全国范围内推广之前就弄清楚了它是如何运作的。
And what happened with Nevaeh and the BSU is a preview of how this could play out elsewhere.
Nevaeh 和 BSU 发生的事情是这种情况在其他地方发生的预演。
So far, 28 other states have these kind of laws on the books.
到目前为止，其他 28 个州也制定了此类法律。
Earlier this year, the Trump administration sent an "End DEI" memo to all colleges and universities, saying that diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts violate civil rights laws.
今年早些时候，特朗普政府向所有学院和大学发出了一份“结束 DEI”备忘录，称多样性、公平和包容性的努力违反了民权法。
Specifically, it says DEI discriminates against white people and Asian people, and that, quote, "Educational institutions have toxically indoctrinated students with the false premise that the United States is built upon systemic and structural racism.
具体来说，它说 DEI 歧视白人和亚洲人，并引用“教育机构向学生灌输有毒的错误前提，即美国是建立在系统性和结构性种族主义的基础上的。
The Department will no longer tolerate the overt and covert racial discrimination that has become widespread in this nation's educational institutions."
该部门将不再容忍在这个国家的教育机构中普遍存在的公开和隐蔽的种族歧视。”
The new guiding principle on campuses across the country is now open to all.
全国各地校园的新指导原则现已向所有人开放。
That phrase, "open to all," it's at the core of anti-DEI legislation.
“向所有人开放”这句话是反 DEI 立法的核心。
And from that perspective, the problem with a Black Student Union is it doesn't seem like it's open to all.
从这个角度来看，黑人学生会的问题在于它似乎并不向所有人开放。
The laws argue that by serving Black students, it's not serving other students.
法律认为，为黑人学生服务，并不是为其他学生服务。
It's discriminating against everyone else.
这是对其他人的歧视。
So what that means for universities across the country is programs are quietly disappearing.
因此，这对全国各地的大学来说意味着项目正在悄然消失。
The University of Alabama at Birmingham got rid of its scholarships for Black medical students.
阿拉巴马大学伯明翰分校取消了对黑人医学生的奖学金。
The University of Wyoming closed down its Black Social Justice Summer Institute.
怀俄明大学关闭了黑人社会正义暑期学院。
Ohio University canceled its Black Alumni reunion.
俄亥俄大学取消了黑人校友聚会。
Indiana State University dissolved its Black cultural center, so did Wright State and Texas Tech and Weber State, and the University of Cincinnati, and many more.
印第安纳州立大学解散了其黑人文化中心，赖特州立大学、德克萨斯理工大学、韦伯州立大学、辛辛那提大学等也解散了。
Appalachian State University eliminated positions in the admissions office that were dedicated to Black student recruitment.
阿巴拉契亚州立大学取消了招生办公室专门负责黑人学生招生的职位。
Tuskegee University no longer has a program dedicated to training Black women to enter the computer science field.
塔斯基吉大学不再有专门培训黑人女性进入计算机科学领域的项目。
And in Utah last fall, Nevaeh started to see the new law play out on campus.
去年秋天，在犹他州，内瓦开始看到新法律在校园中实施。
The first big thing the University of Utah did was dissolve its Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion office.
犹他大学做的第一件大事就是解散其公平、多元化和包容性办公室。
Then no more annual conference for Black high school students, no more scholarships or mentoring programs specifically for Black students.
然后不再有黑人高中生的年度会议，不再有专门针对黑人学生的奖学金或指导计划。
The University didn't cancel the Black Student Union, but they did start to restrict what a Black Student Union could be.
大学没有取消黑人学生会，但他们确实开始限制黑人学生会的范围。
And they basically just said that every single thing would have to be ran by them.
他们基本上只是说每件事都必须由他们来管理。
And what that meant would be that if we wanted to make any Instagram post, we would have to send it in to them.
这意味着如果我们想在 Instagram 上发布任何帖子，我们就必须将其发送给他们。
I was like, well, can we say that we don't support this bill publicly, right?
我当时想，好吧，我们可以说我们不公开支持这项法案吗？
No, you couldn't do any of that.
不，你不能这样做。
You can't go against the bill at all.
你根本不能反对该法案。
You can't talk about anything having to do with racism.
你不能谈论任何与种族主义有关的事情。
And so we were like, OK, but if we can't talk about racism or Black History, can we keep our name still?
所以我们想，好吧，但是如果我们不能谈论种族主义或黑人历史，我们可以保留我们的名字吗？
Can we still say Black Student Union?
我们还能说黑人学生会吗？
And they were like--
他们就像——
Change it to what?
改成什么？
Nevaeh Parker No, literally, that's what-- we were like, how would you change the name?
Nevaeh Parker 不，从字面上看，就是这样——我们当时想，你会如何改变这个名字？
And their response was basically like, we're going to have to run that by people.
他们的反应基本上是这样的，我们将不得不由人来管理它。
But like, mm, we're really going to fight for you to be able to say that.
但是，嗯，我们真的会努力让你能够说出这句话。
And so it's like, you can maybe just do whatever you want once they just don't hear the word Black.
所以就像，一旦他们听不到“黑色”这个词，你也许可以做任何你想做的事。
So every time Nevaeh wanted to host an event, she now had to run it by the University.
因此，每次 Nevaeh 想要举办活动时，她现在都必须由大学来举办。
And when the word Black came up to advertise those event--
当“黑色”这个词出现来宣传这些活动时——
And they would just be like, let's think of other ways to say this so that people don't get upset, and so we don't get flagged by the University.
他们会说，让我们想想其他的方式来表达这一点，这样人们就不会感到不安，这样我们就不会被大学标记。
Oh, radical.
哦，激进。
They would like to say radical joy, radical love.
他们想说的是彻底的快乐、彻底的爱。
Radical love, radical joy instead of Black love, Black joy.
激进的爱，激进的快乐，而不是黑色的爱，黑色的快乐。
Yeah.
是的。
And so they would just be like, yeah.
所以他们就会说，是的。
Just do that.
就这么做吧。
That's the one term I can hear her saying it, one of the staff.
这是我能听到她说的一个词，一名工作人员。
[CHUCKLES] I mean, I don't really know.
[笑]我的意思是，我真的不知道。
Honestly, I don't even know.
老实说，我什至不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Nevaeh kept hearing that anything they did needed to be open to all, which was confusing for Nevaeh because everything the BSU did was already open to everyone.
Nevaeh 不断听说他们所做的任何事情都需要向所有人开放，这让 Nevaeh 感到困惑，因为 BSU 所做的一切都已经向所有人开放。
Nevaeh was like, this law is coming for us.
Nevaeh 说，这项法律即将到来。
She needed a way to save the BSU, so she made a choice.
她需要一种方法来拯救 BSU，所以她做出了选择。
She thought the only way they could survive as the BSU she loved would be to become an independent organization, to separate from the University, not to be a university-sponsored club.
她认为，作为她所热爱的白俄罗斯州立大学，他们生存的唯一途径就是成为一个独立的组织，从大学中分离出来，而不是成为一个由大学赞助的俱乐部。
They were going to go it alone.
他们打算单干。
This meant losing all their funding, their advisor, the status they had as the official club for Black students at the University of Utah.
这意味着他们失去了所有的资金、顾问以及作为犹他大学黑人学生官方俱乐部的地位。
How did it feel to finally make that choice?
最终做出这样的选择感觉如何？
Terrifying, genuinely.
真的很可怕。
Because I was like, if I'm making the wrong decision, it felt like it would all fall on me.
因为我当时想，如果我做出了错误的决定，感觉一切都会落在我身上。
To run the BSU independently, they needed money.
为了独立运营 BSU，他们需要资金。
Nevaeh has to set up a GoFundMe so the BSU can do basic things.
Nevaeh 必须设立 GoFundMe，以便 BSU 可以做基本的事情。
She has to figure out where they can meet.
她必须弄清楚他们可以在哪里见面。
Before the law, one of the places they met regularly was the Black Cultural Center.
在法律颁布之前，他们经常聚会的地方之一是黑人文化中心。
But after the law, it was unstaffed and didn't have any funding.
但法律颁布后，它没有人员，也没有任何资金。
Nevaeh was told she'd have to make a reservation to book the space.
Nevaeh 被告知她必须预约才能预订空间。
So we didn't really know how to book the space with the Black Cultural Center because for a couple months there, they were telling us, we're not sure if it would be free to students.
所以我们真的不知道如何向黑人文化中心预订空间，因为在那里的几个月里，他们告诉我们，我们不确定它是否对学生免费。
So they were just basically saying, we might have to pay for it.
所以他们基本上只是说，我们可能必须为此付出代价。
And we were like, we can't pay for it.
我们当时想，我们付不起钱。
We don't want to pay for it.
我们不想为此付出代价。
That's crazy.
太疯狂了。
And that is crazy to ask students to pay so they can gather on a campus they are already paying thousands to go to.
要求学生付费以便他们可以聚集在他们已经支付了数千美元的校园里，这是疯狂的。
They have their first kickback of the year in a classroom they can use for free at the Student Union.
他们在学生会免费使用的教室里获得了今年的第一次回扣。
Nevaeh tries to organize events that are fun and will bring out students, but won't cost any money.
Nevaeh 试图组织一些既有趣又能让学生参与进来的活动，但又不花钱。
She emails the Utah Jazz to see if she can get free tickets for a BSU event.
她向犹他爵士队发送电子邮件，询问是否可以获得 BSU 活动的免费门票。
It works.
有用。
They go to a game against the Heat.
他们去看热火队的比赛。
It's a chaotic start to the semester.
这是一个混乱的学期开始。
The club is happening.
俱乐部正在发生。
Nevaeh's life is full of tasks-- some of which she expected and some of which she really didn't.
内瓦的生活充满了任务——有些是她预料到的，有些是她真正没有想到的。
For instance, now that the club was no longer part of the University, she was fundraising to keep the BSU alive.
例如，现在该俱乐部不再是大学的一部分，她正在筹集资金以维持 BSU 的生存。
Random people from the Salt Lake Community saw that and wanted to share their ideas for how she should run things.
来自盐湖城社区的随机人们看到了这一点，并想分享他们对她应该如何管理事情的想法。
So now, she was also a private fundraiser, taking calls before, between, and after classes.
所以现在，她也是一名私人筹款人，在课前、课间和课后接听电话。
She didn't want to miss a possible opportunity.
她不想错过一个可能的机会。
One time, she got a message from a man who said he was retired and had a background in strategic planning.
有一次，她收到一位男士发来的信息，说他已经退休，有战略规划背景。
So she got up early before class to get on Zoom with him.
于是，她在上课前就起了个大早，和他一起上Zoom。
He was in his home office, I remember.
我记得他在他的家庭办公室里。
And he was this old white guy.
他就是这个白人老家伙。
And he was like, I just hate to see that this is happening.
他说，我只是不想看到这种事发生。
And he was our government has gotten really off the rails.
我们的政府已经完全脱轨了。
And they're not understanding that DEI is a good thing.
他们不明白 DEI 是一件好事。
And I was like, OK.
我当时想，好吧。
We were jiving.
我们兴奋极了。
It was great to see someone like him speak the way that he was and support us in the way that he was.
很高兴看到像他这样的人以他的方式说话并以他的方式支持我们。
And so he was like, this is what you need to do.
所以他说，这就是你需要做的。
You need to rebrand.
你需要重塑品牌。
You need to talk to this person.
你需要和这个人谈谈。
You need to go to the LDS Church because they have a big stake in the decisions that are made within the government.
你需要去摩门教徒教会，因为他们在政府内部做出的决定中拥有很大的利害关系。
And he was like, a lot of people hated this bill.
他说，很多人讨厌这项法案。
And he was like, you just need to get the LDS church on your side because they love this and this.
他说，你只需要让摩门教教会站在你这边，因为他们喜欢这个和这个。
And he's a member as well.
而且他也是会员。
And he was like, you can talk to them.
他说，你可以和他们谈谈。
They'll listen to you.
他们会听你的。
You need to go and tell them.
你需要去告诉他们。
He's like got to get out there and start lobbying, basically.
基本上，他必须走出去开始游说。
Yeah.
是的。
No, genuinely.
不，说真的。
He was like, march up to the gates.
他就像是，向大门走去。
And he mentioned to Nevaeh that he had money.
他向内瓦提到他有钱。
He was like, eventually a donation would be in the future, but we need these things to happen first so that more donations can come.
他说，最终将来会进行捐赠，但我们需要首先发生这些事情，以便可以收到更多的捐赠。
And I remember calling my mom and being like, I don't really know why this white guy just wanted to talk with me for an hour about BSU.
我记得打电话给我妈妈，我真的不知道为什么这个白人只想和我谈论一个小时关于 BSU 的事情。
I'm not really sure what's going on.
我不太确定发生了什么事。
And she was like, is he giving you money?
她问，他给你钱了吗？
And I was like, I think eventually if we do what he wants us to do.
我当时想，我想最终如果我们按照他的要求去做的话。
I don't know.
我不知道。
[LAUGHS] This goes nowhere.
[笑]这毫无进展。
It does not lead to any donation.
它不会导致任何捐赠。
Nevaeh and the man never talk again.
内瓦赫和那个男人再也没有说话。
Calls like these took a lot of time, time that she didn't have.
像这样的电话需要花费很多时间，而她没有这样的时间。
For the first time, Nevaeh's grades, which had always been perfect, started slipping.
内瓦一向完美的成绩第一次开始下滑。
Nevaeh started anxiety medication.
Nevaeh 开始服用抗焦虑药物。
She was making calculations like, do I do this thing for BSU, or do I do this thing for school?
她在盘算着，我应该为 BSU 做这件事，还是为学校做这件事？
If I skip this assignment, I'll still pass this class.
如果我跳过这个作业，我仍然会通过这门课。
So it's OK, right?
所以没关系，对吧？
Before the DEI law, the work of making the BSU exist was handled by adults with full-time jobs.
在 DEI 法颁布之前，BSU 的成立工作是由有全职工作的成年人负责的。
Last year, that adult became 19-year-old Nevaeh.
去年，那个成年人变成了 19 岁的 Nevaeh。
Of course, Nevaeh had the support of other BSU members.
当然，Nevaeh 得到了其他 BSU 成员的支持。
They told me they really appreciated Nevaeh and that the BSU wouldn't have continued without her.
他们告诉我，他们真的很感激 Nevaeh，如果没有她，BSU 就不会继续下去。
But Nevaeh says people would also text her and say they were too busy or stressed to help out.
但内瓦说，人们也会给她发短信，说他们太忙或压力太大，无法提供帮助。
Nevaeh would always respond kindly.
Nevaeh 总是会友善地回应。
Please let me know if I can do anything for you.
如果我能为您做些什么，请告诉我。
I appreciate what you've been able to do.
我很感激你所做的一切。
I know this has been a hard year.
我知道这是艰难的一年。
That would be my response.
这就是我的回应。
And I just felt like I couldn't say anything else.
我只是觉得我不能再说什么了。
I didn't really know what else to say because, I don't know, I wanted to beg them to stay, and I wanted to tell them that we really needed help, but it just felt like, I don't know, it felt like I couldn't do that.
我真的不知道还能说什么，因为，我不知道，我想求他们留下来，我想告诉他们我们真的需要帮助，但感觉就像，我不知道，感觉我做不到。
Were there moments where you were like, I don't want to do this anymore?
是否有过这样的时刻：我不想再这样做了？
I can't do this anymore?
我不能再这样了吗？
Like, yeah.
就像，是的。
This is so hard to answer because, [SIGHS] yes, there were many, many, many moments where I would just be like going to sleep at night and being very, very overwhelmed with the week ahead or the day, the next day, honestly.
这很难回答，因为，[叹息]是的，有很多很多很多时刻，我会在晚上睡觉时对未来一周或这一天、第二天感到非常非常不知所措，老实说。
And I didn't know how to communicate how bad I was struggling mentally.
我不知道如何表达我的精神挣扎有多么严重。
And so it was kind of just this thing where I had to deal with it on my own and just keep pushing through, I guess, because that just felt like my only option.
所以这就是我必须自己处理的事情，并且继续坚持下去，我想，因为这感觉像是我唯一的选择。
The University of Utah has had a BSU since the 1960s.
犹他大学自 20 世纪 60 年代起就设有 BSU。
Students created it during the fight for civil rights.
学生们在争取民权的过程中创造了它。
This new law had wiped out so much of what the BSU had created over seven decades.
这项新法律消灭了 BSU 七年来创造的大部分内容。
Nevaeh felt like it couldn't end with her.
Nevaeh 觉得这件事无法以她结束。
She felt like she was president of the only organization left to specifically support Black students at the University of Utah, and it had to keep existing.
她觉得自己是犹他大学唯一专门支持黑人学生的组织的主席，并且该组织必须继续存在。
Nevaeh and the BSU made it to February, Black History month, which meant skate night.
Nevaeh 和 BSU 成功度过了二月，黑人历史月，这意味着滑板之夜。
Skate night was always one of the biggest events of the year.
滑冰之夜一直是一年中最大的活动之一。
This year, Nevaeh had thrown a ton of money they'd fundraised into the event.
今年，Nevaeh 将他们筹集的大量资金投入到了这项活动中。
She bought 70 tickets at the local roller rink, and that's how many people she needed to show up for it to be a success.
她在当地的溜冰场买了 70 张门票，这就是她需要到场的人数才能成功。
If they could pull this off on their own, it would feel like the BSU was still thriving on campus.
如果他们能自己完成这件事，就会感觉 BSU 仍然在校园里蓬勃发展。
So it's a Saturday night, and the event starts at midnight.
这是星期六晚上，活动在午夜开始。
Hey, guys.
嘿，伙计们。
It's me and Nevaeh here.
这里是我和 Nevaeh。
We're almost at full capacity, so if you're coming with your friends, come soon.
我们几乎已经满员了，所以如果您和朋友一起来，请尽快来。
Nevaeh and her VP, Sandrine, are posting on Instagram.
Nevaeh 和她的副总裁 Sandrine 在 Instagram 上发帖。
Neon purple lights glow in the background as they talk.
当他们说话时，紫色的霓虹灯在背景中闪烁。
The two are dressed up-- college night dressed up that is-- cute tops and jeans.
两人都盛装打扮——大学之夜的盛装打扮——可爱的上衣和牛仔裤。
Nevaeh has straightened her usually curly hair.
内瓦拉直了她通常卷曲的头发。
Sandrine's is picked out.
桑德琳的被挑出来了。
They seem giddy.
他们看起来很头晕。
Please, please, please, especially U of U students, we have a limited amount of tickets, but it's so much for so please come.
拜托，拜托，拜托，尤其是 U of U 的学生，我们的门票数量有限，但数量太多了，所以请来。
Immediately, it's packed.
立刻，就包装好了。
There's a line out the door.
门外已经排起了长队。
And now Nevaeh's biggest worry is that they won't have enough tickets.
现在内瓦赫最担心的是他们没有足够的门票。
I was sitting at the front, whatever, and I was basically like, oh my goodness.
不管怎样，我坐在前面，我基本上就想，天哪。
I knew the check coming back was going to be thousands of dollars.
我知道退回的支票将是数千美元。
I knew it because the office, too-- the people who were working-- the workers at the Classic Fun Center were being like, so you're running out of the wristbands you paid for.
我知道这一点是因为办公室——那些正在工作的人——经典娱乐中心的工作人员就像，所以你所支付的腕带即将用完。
We're going to have to-- either you're going to have to cut people off at the door, or we're going to have to keep charging you for more people.
我们将不得不——要么你必须在门口拦住人们，要么我们将不得不继续向你收取更多人的费用。
And I was basically just like, well, I can't turn anyone away.
我基本上就想，好吧，我不能拒绝任何人。
Somehow we're going to have to just make this work.
我们必须以某种方式完成这项工作。
We just got to do it because people just-- this is like our big thing.
我们必须这样做，因为人们只是——这就像我们的大事。
And everyone was so excited about it, too.
每个人也对此感到非常兴奋。
And so, I was a-- people would say maybe a pushover in that sense.
所以，从这个意义上来说，人们会说我可能是个容易屈服的人。
And I don't regret it.
我并不后悔。
The night cost them thousands of dollars, money Nevaeh had to scramble to raise, but over 300 people showed up.
当晚他们花费了数千美元，Nevaeh 不得不努力筹集资金，但到场的人数超过 300 人。
I definitely felt like a big sense of, I guess, pride, you could say.
我想，你可以说，我确实感到一种强烈的自豪感。
This is a huge event.
这是一个巨大的事件。
So many people are having a great time and enjoying themselves.
很多人都玩得很开心，玩得很开心。
And yeah, everyone's just happy and together, and that's what we want.
是的，每个人都快乐地在一起，这就是我们想要的。
That's what we want it to be.
这就是我们想要的。
She pulled it off.
她成功了。
She'd protected the thing that she cared about most-- a place where Black students could feel welcome.
她保护了她最关心的东西——一个让黑人学生感到受欢迎的地方。
By the end of the spring semester, she'd tripled BSU membership.
到春季学期结束时，她的 BSU 会员人数增加了两倍。
There's something insidious about the anti-DEI laws.
反 DEI 法律有些阴险。
They present themselves as civil rights laws, while eliminating so many of the things that the civil rights movement demanded on university campuses.
它们将自己描述为民权法，同时消除了民权运动在大学校园中要求的许多东西。
They present themselves as laws to promote inclusion, open to all, while disappearing all the programs and money and support that actually made Black kids feel welcome.
他们将自己描述为促进包容性、向所有人开放的法律，同时取消了所有真正让黑人孩子感到受欢迎的项目、资金和支持。
Nevaeh is constantly trying to create space for Black students.
Nevaeh 不断努力为黑人学生创造空间。
The University is literally taking space away.
大学实际上正在抢占空间。
I watched the university do this in real time one day.
有一天，我亲眼目睹大学实时做到这一点。
The Black Student Union used to have a home on campus, the Black Cultural Center.
黑人学生会曾经在校园里有一个家，黑人文化中心。
It'd been one of Nevaeh's favorite places on campus.
这是内瓦在校园里最喜欢的地方之一。
The house was still there, but the University wouldn't tell them what was going to happen with it.
房子仍然在那里，但大学不会告诉他们它将发生什么。
They just kept saying they were working on it and they'd try and reopen it.
他们只是一直说他们正在努力，他们会尝试重新开放它。
It just sat there the whole year, often locked.
它一整年都放在那里，经常锁着。
The old Black Cultural Center staff gone.
老黑人文化中心的工作人员不见了。
And then at the end of the school year, the University quietly renamed it.
然后在学年结束时，大学悄悄地重新命名了它。
It was no longer the Black Cultural Center.
它不再是黑人文化中心。
It was now the Center for Community and Cultural Engagement.
现在是社区和文化参与中心。
Nevaeh and I drove by.
我和内瓦开车经过。
Right to the left right here.
这里从右到左。
Right here.
就在这里。
So you can see that sign outside of it.
所以你可以看到外面的标志。
Oh, the doors are open.
哦，门是开着的。
Should we go in?
我们应该进去吗？
It's a two-story brick house.
这是一栋二层砖房。
When we pulled up, the door was actually propped open.
当我们停下来时，门实际上是开着的。
OK, so I guess first just tell me-- oh, it still says Black Cultural Center on the door.
好吧，所以我想首先告诉我——哦，门上仍然写着黑人文化中心。
Yes, on the door.
是的，在门上。
But I think they're in the works of decorating and reassigning things.
但我认为他们正在进行装饰和重新分配事物的工作。
So on the door, you can see it's a-- what would it be?
所以在门上，你可以看到它是什么？
Like, a vinyl.
就像黑胶唱片一样。
Like vinyl words on the screen door.
就像纱门上的乙烯基文字一样。
But then outside of it, the actual sign now says Center for Community and Cultural Engagement instead of Black Cultural Center.
但在它之外，实际的标志现在是社区和文化参与中心，而不是黑人文化中心。
And so I guess for right now, it's a good thing that the door still says it with the vinyl lettering.
所以我想现在，门上仍然用乙烯基字母写着这一点是一件好事。
OK.
好的。
When did you hear that the sign was going to change, when that was going to go down?
您什么时候听说标志要改变，什么时候要掉下来？
We never heard anything about that.
我们从未听说过任何有关此事的消息。
And still no one has said that.
但仍然没有人这么说。
Are they renaming it now?
他们现在要重新命名吗？
And that's the questions I have.
这就是我的问题。
Because if they're changing that sign and saying that, then what does it mean for everything else inside of it?
因为如果他们改变了那个标志并这么说，那么它对里面的其他东西意味着什么？
I mean, it's just like there's no communication or transparency once again.
我的意思是，这就像再次没有沟通或透明度一样。
It's not like there was any public notice, like, we're so sorry to this community.
好像没有任何公共通知，比如，我们对这个社区感到非常抱歉。
We're taking away the sign, and we're replacing it.
我们正在拆除该标志并更换它。
Like, we are sorry, and we wish we didn't have to do this.
就像，我们很抱歉，我们希望我们不必这样做。
That would go a long way.
那会有很长的路要走。
But, OK, let's see.
但是，好吧，让我们看看。
We open the door and walk into the house.
我们打开门，走进房子。
Nevaeh seems annoyed but ready to show me around.
内瓦似乎很生气，但准备带我四处看看。
Knock, knock.
敲，敲。
How are you?
你好吗？
Center Staffer Doing well.
中心工作人员表现良好。
How are you?
你好吗？
I'm good, thank you.
我很好，谢谢。
Emanuele Berry There's a white woman sitting behind a desk inside.
Emanuele Berry 里面的桌子后面坐着一位白人妇女。
She's one of the employees of the new center.
她是新中心的员工之一。
Nevaeh brightly says hello to her and begins my tour.
Nevaeh 愉快地向她打招呼，然后开始我的旅行。
There's a little seating area and a library of books, Black History books, a signed copy of Langston Hughes.
这里有一个小休息区和一个藏书库，里面有黑人历史书，还有一本兰斯顿·休斯的签名书。
She shows me a meeting room, a kitchen filled with snacks, a bunch of closets all over the house.
她带我参观了一间会议室、一间装满零食的厨房、整个房子里都有一堆壁橱。
In every room, there is a closet filled with BSU supplies, things like notebooks, pencils, postcards, tables, buckets of candy.
每个房间都有一个壁橱，里面装满了 BSU 的用品，比如笔记本、铅笔、明信片、桌子、糖果桶等。
So you can see, the graduation stoles right there.
所以你可以看到，毕业典礼就在那里偷了。
The graduation stoles are kind of like African colors.
毕业披肩有点像非洲的颜色。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
And then we have this sign is used for tabling.
然后我们有这个标志用于表格。
So it just like--
所以它就像——
Nevaeh was excited and proud to show me around, but I have to admit it was also kind of eerie.
Nevaeh 很兴奋也很自豪带我四处参观，但我不得不承认这也有点怪异。
So much of it is exactly as Nevaeh remembered it.
其中大部分内容与内瓦记忆中的一模一样。
Even the former director of the BCC's name is still painted above his office door.
就连BCC前任主任的名字仍然画在他办公室的门上方。
It feels like a tour of the house you moved out of or the house you grew up in, where you kind of still know where the stuff is.
感觉就像参观你搬出的房子或你长大的房子，你仍然知道东西在哪里。
Yeah, but it's also somehow not like in your full-- [SIGHS] It's not fully in your hands.
是的，但它也不完全在你手中——[叹息]它并不完全在你手中。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's weird, but is a part of our stuff.
这很奇怪，但却是我们东西的一部分。
We end the tour at a beautiful mural by the entrance.
我们在入口处美丽的壁画处结束了旅程。
It's a big white sankofa bird with an African tribal pattern behind it.
这是一只巨大的白色桑科法鸟，背后有非洲部落图案。
And then in big block letters next to it, it says, The University of Utah's Black Cultural Center.
然后旁边用大写字母写着：犹他大学黑人文化中心。
But I mean, yeah, I mean, it's interesting.
但我的意思是，是的，我的意思是，这很有趣。
Actually, now that I'm just pointing it out to you, yeah, the signs are still there.
事实上，既然我只是向你指出，是的，迹象仍然存在。
Yeah.
是的。
It was because we did not know what was going to happen.
这是因为我们不知道会发生什么。
The staffer at the desk interrupts Nevaeh's tour to explain the sign change.
前台工作人员打断了内瓦赫的游览，解释标志的变化。
With all of the bills and stuff, we're hoping that we could still keep this name The Black Cultural Center, but we're going to have to change it.
有了所有的法案和其他东西，我们希望我们仍然可以保留黑人文化中心这个名字，但我们必须改变它。
So it is confirmed.
于是就确认了。
Yeah, I saw the sign outside.
是的，我看到外面的标志了。
Yes.
是的。
Nevaeh Parker And I was like, huh?
Nevaeh Parker 我当时想，嗯？
So when was that decided?
那么什么时候决定的呢？
Like, recent?
比如，最近的？
Kind of, but yeah.
有点像，但是是的。
It was a few months ago that it was decided that we do need to change it.
几个月前我们决定确实需要改变它。
And then we just haven't gotten around to it because there's still even more changes.
然后我们还没有抽出时间来解决这个问题，因为还有更多的变化。
And so the CCCE will be taking over this building fully.
因此，CCCE 将完全接管这座大楼。
OK.
好的。
Center Staffer So this will be like for BSU to use a lot, too, and just everything else.
中心工作人员 因此，BSU 也会使用很多东西，以及其他所有东西。
But we're still going to keep a lot of what's on the inside, but we do have to change the name.
但我们仍然会保留里面的很多内容，但我们必须更改名称。
Like officially, like, in Google Maps and stuff?
就像官方的，比如谷歌地图之类的？
I don't know how all of that's going to play out.
我不知道这一切将会如何进行。
But it'll change?
但它会改变吗？
Center Staffer It will change.
中心工作人员 它会改变。
Do about the decorations on the inside?
里面的装饰怎么样？
Is that going to have to be covered up?
难道这件事就必须被掩盖吗？
Nevaeh points to the mural with the bird and the words Black Cultural Center.
内瓦指着画有鸟和“黑人文化中心”字样的壁画。
This might have to go.
这可能得走了。
We're not quite sure about--
我们不太确定——
No, that's OK.
不，没关系。
Thank you.
谢谢。
No, yeah.
不，是的。
I just have-- is it because it says Black?
我只是——是因为上面写着黑色吗？
That's why.
这就是原因。
OK, that's what I thought.
好吧，我就是这么想的。
We can't even use the word inclusive.
我们甚至不能使用包容这个词。
Yeah we can't say that this is just for Black students so-- because you know, we have to be inclusive without saying inclusive.
是的，我们不能说这只是针对黑人学生的，因为你知道，我们必须包容，而不是说包容。
OK.
好的。
Yeah, no, it's very sad.
是的，不，这是非常悲伤的。
It's very sad to me.
我很伤心。
Nevaeh thanks the woman for her honesty, and we start to head out.
内瓦感谢这位女士的诚实，然后我们开始出发。
I appreciate it.
我很感激。
Center Staffer You take care, Nevaeh.
中心工作人员 你保重，Nevaeh。
You, too.
你也是。
Emanuele Berry Oh, man, how are you feeling?
埃马努埃莱·贝里 哦，伙计，你感觉怎么样？
I'm going to cry.
我要哭了。
This is horrible.
这太可怕了。
This is actually, actually horrible.
这实际上非常非常可怕。
What about that pushed you over the edge?
那把你推到悬崖边又怎样呢？
They're officially changing the name, which I didn't think was going to happen, officially.
他们正在正式更改名称，我认为这不会正式发生。
I don't know.
我不知道。
That's crazy.
太疯狂了。
Yeah.
是的。
No, I am really upset.
不，我真的很难过。
And I don't want to take it out on her because clearly it's not her fault, but what is going on?
我不想把气撒在她身上，因为显然这不是她的错，但到底发生了什么事？
Actually, what's going on?
事实上，这是怎么回事？
And why didn't they think tell us?
他们为什么不认为告诉我们呢？
And then she said it would be for the Black Student Union to use.
然后她说这将供黑人学生会使用。
If we don't even know, your plans-- sorry.
如果我们甚至不知道你的计划——抱歉。
No, you're good.
不，你很好。
Nevaeh Parker If don't even know your future plans for it, how are we supposed to know that we're welcome there.
Nevaeh Parker 如果连你未来的计划都不知道，我们怎么知道我们在那里受到欢迎。
How are we supposed to think, oh yeah, we're going to be fine when they don't even communicate any of that to us?
当他们甚至不向我们传达任何信息时，我们该如何思考，哦，是的，我们会没事的？
And it's not like they don't have my contact.
他们又不是没有我的联系方式。
They do.
他们确实这么做了。
They can ask me to do other things.
他们可以要求我做其他事情。
They can let us know about this.
他们可以让我们知道这一点。
And it's just very frustrating and sad to me.
这对我来说非常令人沮丧和悲伤。
It's like the sign out front, you're like, OK, it seems like they're changing it, but now it just feels like it's official, official?
就像前面的标志，你会想，好吧，看起来他们正在改变它，但现在感觉就像是官方的，官方的？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, it does feel official now that she just confirmed that they for sure are changing it.
是的，现在她刚刚确认他们肯定会改变它，这确实感觉很正式。
And it just comes back like it just to the exact thing I was talking about, like, the word Black being so weaponized.
它就像我刚才所说的一样，就像“黑色”这个词被如此武器化一样。
It is so incredibly weaponized, and that just it blows my mind how-- I don't know.
它的武器化程度如此令人难以置信，这让我大吃一惊——我不知道。
I just wish that maybe their team or something would have just said no.
我只是希望他们的团队或其他什么人会拒绝。
What if they just said no?
如果他们只是拒绝怎么办？
What if they just said, no, we're not changing the name?
如果他们只是说，不，我们不会更改名称怎么办？
What would happen then?
那么会发生什么呢？
Would they fire everyone?
他们会解雇所有人吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I just feel like now, what do we have to lose?
我现在只是觉得，我们会失去什么？
Because now we're losing this, officially.
因为现在我们正式失去了这一点。
It's not just a talk.
这不只是说说而已。
It's not just a fear.
这不仅仅是一种恐惧。
It's actually happening.
这确实正在发生。
And if they're changing the stuff on the inside, too, then it's like, absolutely you're erasing-- you're absolutely erasing the Center.
如果他们也改变了内部的东西，那么就像，你绝对是在擦除——你绝对是在擦除中心。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm actually in shock, kind of like.
我实际上很震惊，有点像。
Is it real?
这是真的吗？
Is this real life right now because it just feels very dystopian to me.
这就是现在的现实生活吗，因为它对我来说感觉非常反乌托邦。
[FRUSTRATED SIGH]
[沮丧的叹息]
Nevaeh is no longer the high school kid making chipper morning announcements.
内瓦不再是那个在早上发表轻松公告的高中生了。
Nevaeh's only 20.
内瓦只有20岁。
She was three years old when Obama was elected president, came of age in the era of Black Squares and Black Lives Matter protest.
奥巴马当选总统时她三岁，在“黑人广场”和“黑人生命也是命”抗议活动的时代长大。
In her mind, the country was shifting to a more accepting place.
在她看来，这个国家正在转向一个更容易接受的地方。
And where we are now, the world she's navigating it's so different than the one she grew up believing in.
而我们现在所处的位置，她所驾驭的世界与她从小到大所相信的世界是如此不同。
I talked with the University about the sign change.
我与大学讨论了标志变更的问题。
They said Black gives the impression that the center isn't open to all.
他们说布莱克给人的印象是该中心并不向所有人开放。
So I asked, can you say the word Black?
所以我问，你能说“黑色”这个词吗？
They said, it depends.
他们说，这要看情况。
If it's cultural, educational, yes.
如果是文化、教育的话，是的。
If it's tied to resources, no. They said they had to be careful.
如果它与资源相关，则不会。他们说他们必须小心。
They run all their events like Pride Week, Women's Week, Black anything by lawyers.
他们所有的活动都由律师举办，比如骄傲周、妇女周、黑人任何活动。
I just want to say one more thing about the word Black.
关于“黑色”这个词，我只想再说一件事。
It's just a word.
这只是一个词。
Who cares?
谁在乎？
But it's not.
但事实并非如此。
It's a word that was decided on by Black people.
这是黑人决定的一个词。
There's a long list of shitty and degrading words that white people have lodged at us, enslaved and murdered us for.
白人向我们说出了一长串卑鄙和有辱人格的言语，奴役和谋杀了我们。
Black is the word we got to add to the list, the one that we got to choose, capital B Black.
Black 是我们要添加到列表中的单词，我们必须选择的单词，大写 B Black。
We are Black.
我们是黑人。
It's very-- call us by our name.
非常——以我们的名字呼唤我们。
Removing Black, taking that off the list of acceptable words as a way of saying you don't decide, we do.
删除黑色，将其从可接受的单词列表中删除，以此表示您不做决定，我们做决定。
Nevaeh, though, she refuses to be erased.
然而，Nevaeh 拒绝被抹去。
Even after that terrible year with the anti-DEI law, Nevaeh is still pushing forward, still determined to keep the Black Student Union alive.
即使在反 DEI 法颁布的可怕一年之后，内瓦赫仍在继续前进，仍然决心让黑人学生会继续存在。
She just started her junior year.
她刚刚开始大三。
On the first day of school, she's outside tabling for the BSU.
开学第一天，她在 BSU 的外桌。
A young woman approaches.
一名年轻女子走近。
She's a transfer student from Oregon.
她是来自俄勒冈州的转学生。
I'm Deja.
我是德贾。
Nevaeh Parker Deja, you're beautiful.
Nevaeh Parker Deja，你很漂亮。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Nevaeh Parker It's so nice to meet you.
内瓦·帕克 很高兴见到你。
My name is Nevaeh, and we're the Black Student Union here.
我叫 Nevaeh，我们是这里的黑人学生会。
Have you heard about us?
您听说过我们吗？
Or have you-- no?
或者你有——没有？
OK, well, you should totally join.
好吧，你应该完全加入。
This is our Instagram right here.
这是我们的 Instagram。
So if you just want to join our Instagram.
如果您只是想加入我们的 Instagram。
Right now, we're just working on increasing, like our engagement and our presence on campus.
目前，我们正在努力增加我们的参与度和在校园中的存在。
After some things happened last year with the legislature, we got some of our funding taken away.
去年立法机关发生了一些事情之后，我们的一些资金被拿走了。
But now, we have a fully functioning e-board, and we're going to do a lot of events this year.
但现在，我们有了一个功能齐全的电子板，今年我们将举办很多活动。
So I want you guys--
所以我希望你们——
In this post-DEI era, I think on a lot of campuses how welcome you are as a Black student-- the difference between feeling like you belong or don't belong-- will depend on if you have a Nevaeh or not.
在这个后 DEI 时代，我认为在很多校园里，作为一名黑人学生，你是否受欢迎——感觉你属于或不属于的区别——将取决于你是否有 Nevaeh。
Miki Meek reported this story with me, additional editing from Robyn Semien.
米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 与我一起报道了这个故事，罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 进行了补充编辑。
Coming up, since he's away and I'm hosting, we're going to talk about Ira for 15 minutes.
接下来，由于他不在而我主持，我们将讨论 Ira 15 分钟。
That's after the break from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
那是在芝加哥公共广播电台休息后，我们的节目继续进行。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Emanuele Berry, sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是埃马努埃莱·贝里（Emanuele Berry），代理艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）。
Today's show, College Disorientation.
今天的节目，大学迷失方向。
In this hour, we're looking at some of the dramatic shifts in higher education, a flood of executive orders and memos from the Trump administration.
在这一个小时里，我们正在关注高等教育领域的一些巨大变化、特朗普政府发布的大量行政命令和备忘录。
Let me just run down a few of the new directives for America's colleges and universities.
让我简单介绍一下针对美国学院和大学的一些新指令。
There was a January executive order called Ending Radical and Wasteful Government DEI Programs and Preferencing, the Dear Colleague letter in February.
一月份有一项名为《结束激进和浪费的政府 DEI 计划和偏好》的行政命令，这是二月份致亲爱同事的信。
March, a new task force starts to investigate DEI and antisemitism.
三月，一个新的特别工作组开始调查 DEI 和反犹太主义。
In April, the NIH starts requiring researchers to certify that their colleges do not have any DEI programs.
4 月份，NIH 开始要求研究人员证明他们的大学没有任何 DEI 项目。
Then in May, the Department of Justice launches a Civil Rights Fraud Initiative.
然后在五月，司法部启动了一项民权欺诈倡议。
And one of the most dramatic and public interventions the Trump administration has taken on is with a few high-profile, elite schools-- Brown, Harvard, Columbia, and the University of Pennsylvania.
特朗普政府采取的最引人注目的公开干预措施之一是对一些备受瞩目的精英学校——布朗大学、哈佛大学、哥伦比亚大学和宾夕法尼亚大学。
And that's act two.
这就是第二幕。
Act Two, the Art of the Deal.
第二幕，交易的艺术。
Something we've never really seen before is a presidential administration withholding millions in federal research money from schools it claims are centers of indoctrination and antisemitism.
我们以前从未真正见过的事情是，总统政府从它声称是灌输和反犹太主义中心的学校扣留了数百万联邦研究资金。
Columbia University was the first school to have one of those showdowns with the administration.
哥伦比亚大学是第一所与政府进行摊牌的学校。
It withheld $400 million in federal funding until Columbia agreed to a settlement, one that came with a number of conditions.
在哥伦比亚同意附带多项条件的和解协议之前，它扣留了 4 亿美元的联邦资金。
One of those conditions-- the administration wanted Columbia to more formally incorporate a controversial, government-approved definition of antisemitism.
其中一个条件是政府希望哥伦比亚更正式地纳入有争议的、政府批准的反犹太主义定义。
It's known as the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance working definition, I-H-R-A, or IHRA for short.
它被称为国际大屠杀纪念联盟工作定义，I-H-R-A，简称 IHRA。
The IHRA definition was already one of several definitions Columbia considered when it evaluated claims of antisemitism.
IHRA 的定义已经是哥伦比亚在评估反犹太主义主张时考虑的几个定义之一。
But now IHRA was officially incorporated, alongside some new, unprecedented government oversight.
但现在 IHRA 正式成立，同时还进行了一些新的、前所未有的政府监管。
Professors at Columbia have been trying to figure out what does the IHRA definition mean for them and their classes this year?
哥伦比亚大学的教授今年一直试图弄清楚 IHRA 的定义对他们和他们的班级意味着什么？
Ike Sriskandarajah has been talking to ones who are worried and making plans.
艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾（Ike Sriskandarajah）一直在与忧心忡忡的人交谈并制定计划。
The definition itself is pretty straightforward.
定义本身非常简单。
It's about the length of a tweet-- basically, antisemitism is a hatred of Jews, but it comes with 11 examples that expand on that definition.
它大约是一条推文的长度——基本上，反犹太主义是对犹太人的仇恨，但它附带了 11 个例子来扩展这个定义。
Most are pretty obvious-- calling for the killing of Jews, denying the Holocaust.
大多数都非常明显——呼吁屠杀犹太人，否认大屠杀。
Those are antisemitic.
这些都是反犹太主义的。
But where it gets tricky are a few examples that blur the line between antisemitism and criticism of the state of Israel.
但棘手的是，有一些例子模糊了反犹太主义和批评以色列国之间的界限。
Professors told me that's the part they're worried about.
教授们告诉我，这就是他们担心的部分。
They have to figure out how to teach under this new rule.
他们必须弄清楚如何在这一新规则下进行教学。
I heard about three different strategies.
我听说了三种不同的策略。
First are the professors who say they can't teach.
首先是那些说自己不能教书的教授。
Marianne Hirsch canceled her class.
玛丽安·赫希取消了她的课程。
She teaches comparative literature and gender studies at Columbia.
她在哥伦比亚大学教授比较文学和性别研究。
So the course that I've taught before is called Imaging War, Imagining Peace.
所以我以前教过的课程叫做想象战争，想象和平。
And it's about images of war from the Armenian Genocide and World War I to the present.
这是关于从亚美尼亚种族灭绝和第一次世界大战到现在的战争图像。
Are these images really contesting war, or are they still, in some ways, celebrating war?
这些图像真的是在对抗战争，还是在某种程度上仍然在庆祝战争？
And how the war of images is always part of war.
图像之战始终是战争的一部分。
One of the IHRA examples on her mind when thinking about her lecture on the first day of class-- example 10, comparing contemporary Israeli policies to that of the Nazis.
当她想起第一天上课的演讲时，她脑海中浮现出 IHRA 的一个例子——例 10，将当代以色列政策与纳粹政策进行比较。
I didn't see how I could teach this course without teaching about the present day images of the war in Gaza.
我不知道如何在不教授加沙战争当今图像的情况下教授这门课程。
I thought about how I would structure my first class.
我考虑了如何组织我的第一堂课。
And it would have been about what kind of images of war become iconic?
问题在于什么样的战争图像会成为标志性的？
Little boy in the Warsaw ghetto, the so-called napalm girl during the Vietnam War.
华沙隔都的小男孩，越南战争期间所谓的凝固汽油弹女孩。
And putting those images of children in Gaza next to the little boy in the Warsaw ghetto with Nazi soldiers pointing guns at him is implicitly a comparison of IDF soldiers with Nazis.
将加沙儿童的照片放在华沙隔都的小男孩旁边，纳粹士兵用枪指着他，这隐含着以色列国防军士兵与纳粹分子的比较。
Professor Hirsch has dedicated her career to studying the effects of trauma.
赫希教授将她的职业生涯奉献给了研究创伤的影响。
She's Jewish.
她是犹太人。
And her parents survived the Holocaust.
她的父母在大屠杀中幸存下来。
And she's worried about IHRA, partly because in 2023 a student formally accused her of antisemitism.
她担心 IHRA，部分原因是 2023 年一名学生正式指控她反犹太主义。
It was in a class similar to the one she just described.
那是在一个和她刚才描述的类似的班级里。
She shared some recent articles related to the war in Gaza that she thought were important.
她分享了一些她认为重要的最近与加沙战争有关的文章。
But a student complained, saying they weren't relevant to the class and that some of the reading rationalized acts of antisemitism.
但一名学生抱怨说，这些读物与课堂无关，而且一些读物为反犹太主义行为合理化。
The charge against Professor Hirsch was eventually dropped.
对赫希教授的指控最终被撤销。
But she came out of it feeling like she can't run her class the way she wants to.
但当她走出去时，她感觉自己无法按照自己想要的方式管理班级。
And that was before IHRA.
那是在 IHRA 之前。
So that's the first thing Columbia professors are doing, dropping their courses.
所以这是哥伦比亚大学教授所做的第一件事，放弃他们的课程。
One of the best known Palestinian scholars, Rashid Khalidi, withdrew his course on modern Middle East History.
最著名的巴勒斯坦学者之一拉希德·哈利迪 (Rashid Khalidi) 退出了现代中东史课程。
The professor said in an open letter, quote, "It is impossible to teach this course and much else in light of Columbia's adoption of the IHRA definition of antisemitism."
这位教授在一封公开信中表示，“鉴于哥伦比亚大学采用了 IHRA 对反犹太主义的定义，不可能教授这门课程以及其他许多课程。”
The second thing professors are doing because of IHRA, tweaking what they teach.
由于 IHRA，教授们做的第二件事是调整他们的教学内容。
Professor Najam Haider teaches courses about Islam, including Islam in the postcolonial world.
纳贾姆·海德尔教授教授有关伊斯兰教的课程，包括后殖民世界的伊斯兰教。
He talks about scholars like other people talk about celebs.
他谈论学者就像其他人谈论名人一样。
And one of his favorites is someone he is now concerned about assigning.
他最喜欢的人之一是他现在担心分配的人。
Hannah Arendt was very ambivalent about the state of Israel, and she was very critical of Zionism and Zionist organizations during Nazi Germany in the run up to the Holocaust.
汉娜·阿伦特对以色列国的态度非常矛盾，她对纳粹德国大屠杀前夕的犹太复国主义和犹太复国主义组织非常批评。
I gotta say, Hannah Arendt came up in nearly every call, eight times alone in my conversation with Professor Haider.
我得说，汉娜·阿伦特几乎在每次通话中都会出现，仅在我与海德尔教授的谈话中就有八次。
If you haven't read her, don't worry.
如果你还没有读过她的书，别担心。
It's still early in the semester.
现在还处于学期初期。
The CliffsNotes version is she's an influential Jewish journalist and scholar who fled Nazi Germany.
CliffsNotes 的版本是她是一位有影响力的犹太记者和学者，逃离了纳粹德国。
She came to America and famously coined the phrase "the banality of evil" to describe the mindset in Germany that led to the Holocaust.
她来到美国并创造了著名的“邪恶的平庸”一词来描述德国导致大屠杀的心态。
Like Professor Hirsch, Professor Haider is also worried about that IHRA example, the one about drawing comparisons to Nazis, which Arendt does.
和赫希教授一样，海德尔教授也担心 IHRA 的例子，即阿伦特所做的与纳粹进行比较的例子。
Now, how am I supposed to teach Hannah Arendt?
现在，我该如何教汉娜·阿伦特呢？
Because her critique of the state of Israel and Zionism can then be spun as antisemitism.
因为她对以色列国和犹太复国主义的批评可以被视为反犹太主义。
So instead of me teaching Hannah Arendt, I have to find a way of getting around Hannah Arendt but making the same points.
因此，我必须找到一种绕过汉娜·阿伦特但提出相同观点的方法，而不是教汉娜·阿伦特。
So then I go to Fanon.
然后我就去找法农。
And then I'm talking about Iran.
然后我要谈谈伊朗。
And so what I end up with is a whole class on how Iranian Shi'ism has taken a religious tradition and made it into a political ideology.
因此，我最终学到的是整个课程，内容是伊朗什叶派如何将宗教传统转变为政治意识形态。
And if I make that critique of Iran, I can do that comfortably.
如果我对伊朗进行批评，我可以轻松地做到这一点。
But if I were to make a similar critique of Israel, it would be antisemitism.
但如果我对以色列做出类似的批评，那将是反犹太主义。
And this is what the IHRA definition does.
这就是 IHRA 定义的作用。
What it does is it creates an exception for Israel, where any critique of Israel is treated differently from a critique of any other modern state.
它的作用是为以色列创造一个例外，对以色列的任何批评都将受到与对任何其他现代国家的批评不同的对待。
He's already dropped Hannah Arendt from his syllabus.
他已经将汉娜·阿伦特从他的教学大纲中删除了。
And Professor Haider says his untenured colleagues are going even further out of their way to avoid controversy.
海德尔教授表示，他的未获得终身教职的同事们正在不遗余力地避免争议。
I've had colleagues in Islamic studies who have said, they used to teach modern topics, and now they're going to go back and only teach classical Islam because they don't think that they're able to teach modern topics anymore.
我有一些从事伊斯兰研究的同事说，他们曾经教授现代主题，现在他们要回去只教授古典伊斯兰教，因为他们认为他们不再能够教授现代主题。
And what that does is it reinscribes orientalism.
它的作用是重新定义东方主义。
Orientalism sounds like the ramen flavor, but it's a kind of racism.
东方主义听起来像拉面的味道，但它是一种种族主义。
And one of the premises of Orientalism was this idea that you don't teach Islam as a living tradition.
东方学的前提之一是这样的想法：你不能将伊斯兰教作为一种活生生的传统来教授。
You teach it as something in the past that is ossified.
你把它当作过去僵化的东西来教授。
And so what happens when all your classes on Islamic studies now go back to that?
那么，当你所有的伊斯兰研究课程现在都回到那个时候会发生什么呢？
The third strategy professors are trying is to do nothing.
教授们尝试的第三种策略是什么也不做。
These teachers are not canceling their classes.
这些老师不会取消他们的课程。
They're not changing their classes, even though they think the material they teach will be in violation of IHRA, like Professor Thea Abu El-Haj.
他们不会改变课程，尽管他们认为自己教授的材料会违反 IHRA，就像 Thea Abu El-Haj 教授一样。
She's an educational anthropologist who focuses on Palestinians in the diaspora.
她是一位教育人类学家，主要研究散居海外的巴勒斯坦人。
She's Palestinian, and she's concerned about the ambiguity of the IHRA examples.
她是巴勒斯坦人，她对 IHRA 示例的模糊性感到担忧。
She wondered if her entire class might violate the IHRA example number 7, denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination by claiming that the existence of the State of Israel is a racist endeavor?
她想知道她的整个班级是否可能违反《国际人权法》的第 7 条例子，声称以色列国的存在是种族主义行为，从而否认犹太人民的自决权？
(SUBJECT) THEA ABU EL-HAJ: I mean, there is no Palestinian scholarship that is not questioning the settler colonial nature of the state.
（主题）THEA ABU EL-HAJ：我的意思是，所有巴勒斯坦学者都在质疑该国家的定居者殖民性质。
How do I teach the 2018 Nationalities Law, which states that only Jews have the right to self-determination in the state of Israel?
我如何教授 2018 年《国籍法》，该法规定只有犹太人才有以色列国的自决权？
Can I teach that?
我可以教那个吗？
Can I teach Amnesty's apartheid report?
我可以教授国际特赦组织的种族隔离报告吗？
Your answer is, yes.
你的答案是，是的。
(SUBJECT) THEA ABU EL-HAJ: My answer is I have-- if I'm to teach the things I know about and I'm an expert on, I have to be able to teach those things.
（主题）THEA ABU EL-HAJ：我的答案是——如果我要教授我所知道的事情并且我是这方面的专家，那么我必须能够教授这些事情。
Her sister, Nadia Abu El-Haj, is also a professor at Columbia.
她的妹妹纳迪亚·阿布·哈吉 (Nadia Abu El-Haj) 也是哥伦比亚大学的教授。
She teaches an anthropology of war class and directs the Center for Palestine Studies.
她教授战争人类学课程并领导巴勒斯坦研究中心。
And she says she's not considering revising anything for IHRA, not in her class, not in events at the center.
她说她不会考虑为 IHRA 修改任何内容，无论是在她的课堂上，还是在中心的活动中。
(SUBJECT) NADIA ABU EL-HAJ: So I get the choice we have is, do we dance around it?
（主题）NADIA ABU EL-HAJ：所以我的选择是，我们要围绕它跳舞吗？
Or do we just take it head on?
或者我们只是迎头而上？
And this is my work.
这是我的工作。
And there's nothing I-- I mean, we could either close the Center of Palestine Studies, or we can just take it head on and see what happens.
我的意思是，我们没有什么可以关闭巴勒斯坦研究中心，或者我们可以直接采取行动，看看会发生什么。
(SUBJECT) NADIA ABU EL-HAJ: Oh, absolutely.
（主题）NADIA ABU EL-HAJ： 哦，当然。
This has been my work for over 20 years.
这是我 20 多年来的工作。
So this is so central to what I do that I feel like you want to fire me, fire me.
所以这对我所做的事情是如此重要，以至于我觉得你想解雇我，解雇我。
I mean, I'm not going to cave.
我的意思是，我不会屈服。
She's already gamed out in her head how the consequences will unfold.
她已经在脑子里盘算出后果将如何展开。
(SUBJECT) NADIA ABU EL-HAJ: There'll be a student in class.
（主题）NADIA ABU EL-HAJ： 课堂上会有一名学生。
You'll assign a book.
您将分配一本书。
They'll say, this is discriminatory.
他们会说，这是歧视。
Now, the accumulation of those charges of discrimination, ultimately, they can fire you.
现在，这些歧视指控的积累最终可能会解雇你。
It's never been used that way before, but it's going to be used, and it's going to be the same thing with public events at the center.
以前从未以这种方式使用过，但它将会被使用，而且在中心的公共活动中也将是同样的情况。
Someone will come to an event.
有人会来参加一个活动。
They will launch a complaint against the center for antisemitism and we'll be in this cycle.
他们将对反犹太主义中心发起投诉，我们将陷入这个循环。
She's a tenured professor who, theoretically, they can't fire except in the most extreme circumstances.
她是一位终身教授，从理论上讲，除非在最极端的情况下，否则他们不能解雇她。
Do you think you have a job this time next year?
你认为明年这个时候你有工作吗？
(SUBJECT) NADIA ABU EL-HAJ: I think it'd take a while to fire me, but I don't think it's off the table.
（主题）NADIA ABU EL-HAJ：我认为解雇我需要一段时间，但我不认为这是不可能的。
[LAUGHS] I mean, honestly, I have no idea.
[笑]我的意思是，老实说，我不知道。
She has no idea.
她不知道。
And all these professors, they're just guessing because Columbia did not just agree to the IHRA definition.
所有这些教授都只是猜测，因为哥伦比亚大学不仅仅同意 IHRA 的定义。
Columbia agreed to have a monitor, a person who'd watch over everything that Columbia said it would do under its settlement with the government.
哥伦比亚同意设立一名监督员，负责监督哥伦比亚根据与政府达成的和解协议将要做的一切事情。
But what will the monitor do?
但监视器会做什么呢？
What's his budget?
他的预算是多少？
How many people can he hire?
他能雇用多少人？
It's unclear.
目前还不清楚。
Columbia says the monitor does not have oversight over academic content or curriculum.
哥伦比亚大学表示，该监察员对学术内容或课程没有监督权。
But when I read the terms of the agreement, it says the monitor will have access to, quote, "all agreement-related individuals, facilities, disciplinary hearings, and the scene of any occurrence that the monitor deems necessary," also, quote, "all documents and data related to the agreement." That seems like a lot of stuff.
但当我阅读协议条款时，它说监察员将有权访问“所有与协议相关的个人、设施、纪律听证会以及监察员认为必要的任何事件的现场”，还引用“与协议相关的所有文件和数据”。这似乎是很多东西。
The monitor, Bart Schwartz, declined to answer our questions.
班长巴特·施瓦茨 (Bart Schwartz) 拒绝回答我们的问题。
Najam Haider, the religion professor, told me he's been asking his bosses, is this monitor going to be reviewing what I teach?
宗教教授纳贾姆·海德尔告诉我，他一直在问他的老板，这位班长会审查我所教的内容吗？
When this was brought up with Columbia administration, they said, oh, don't worry about it.
当向哥伦比亚政府提出这个问题时，他们说，哦，别担心。
But they always just say, don't worry about it.
但他们总是说，别担心。
They don't tell you they're not going to be able to do that.
他们不会告诉你他们无法做到这一点。
If you ask them a question, and you say, can this person sit in on my classroom, can they just walk in?
如果你问他们一个问题，你说，这个人可以坐在我的教室里吗？他们可以走进去吗？
They're going to be like, we don't think that's going to happen.
他们会说，我们认为这不会发生。
They're not going to say, no, they can't.
他们不会说，不，他们不能。
There are no limits that have been set to the degree to which they have access to teaching at Columbia.
他们在哥伦比亚大学任教的程度没有限制。
Were there limits before?
之前有限制吗？
Najam Haider There would be no monitor.
Najam Haider 不会有监视器。
There's no monitors before.
以前没有显示器。
There's no one doing this work.
没有人做这项工作。
I did talk to one faculty member who falls into none of these three categories when it comes to the IHRA definition.
我确实与一位教员交谈过，他在 IHRA 的定义方面不属于这三类。
She's in a category that I call, no big deal.
她属于我所说的一类，没什么大不了的。
And she comes to that conclusion based on the job that she's had on campus the last two years as co-chair of Columbia's Task Force on Antisemitism, Professor Ester Fuchs.
她得出这一结论的依据是过去两年她在哥伦比亚大学反犹太主义工作组联合主席埃斯特·福克斯教授的校园工作。
She didn't think the school should formally use IHRA.
她认为学校不应该正式使用 IHRA。
The task force had a different definition of antisemitism that they recommended.
该工作组对反犹太主义提出了不同的定义。
She doesn't like how the government is using antisemitism as a weapon to bully college campuses into all sorts of changes.
她不喜欢政府如何利用反犹太主义作为武器来胁迫大学校园进行各种变革。
But unlike her colleagues, she doesn't think IHRA is that big a deal.
但与她的同事不同的是，她认为 IHRA 没什么大不了的。
I certainly don't want to give the impression that I believe this is simple.
我当然不想给人留下我认为这很简单的印象。
Of course, it's difficult, and I understand why people are frustrated.
当然，这很困难，我理解为什么人们会感到沮丧。
And I understand why there's differences of opinions.
我理解为什么会有意见分歧。
But I don't believe the Trump administration is going to be coming in and monitoring this level of detail at all.
但我认为特朗普政府根本不会介入并监督这种程度的细节。
And it was very clear in the original agreement there is no involvement of the federal government in curriculum, in admissions, or in faculty hiring.
最初的协议中非常清楚地表明，联邦政府不参与课程设置、招生或教师招聘。
The agreement does explicitly say the government won't, quote, "Dictate faculty hiring, university hiring, admissions decisions, or the content of academic speech." But the agreement also gives the government broad oversight over academic departments, complaints of antisemitism, and admissions.
该协议明确表示，政府不会“决定教师招聘、大学招聘、招生决定或学术演讲的内容”。但该协议还赋予政府对学术部门、反犹太主义投诉和招生的广泛监督。
And the agreement requires a review of educational programs to ensure they are, quote, "comprehensive and balanced."
该协议要求对教育计划进行审查，以确保它们“全面且平衡”。
So you can read it Professor Fuch's way, or you can read it the way the other professors I talked to read it.
所以你可以按照福奇教授的方式来阅读它，或者你也可以按照我交谈过的其他教授的方式来阅读它。
But let me just say this, for Professor Fuchs, the conclusion is unambiguous-- there's nothing to be scared of.
但我想说的是，对于福克斯教授来说，结论是明确的——没有什么好害怕的。
I mean, people do your job, for god's sake.
我的意思是，看在上帝的份上，人们做你的工作。
Instead of making students nervous, getting everybody upset, do your job.
不要让学生紧张，让每个人都心烦意乱，做好你的工作。
Figure it out.
弄清楚吧。
That's what we're supposed to be doing.
这就是我们应该做的。
Everybody turned themselves into martyrs here.
每个人都在这里殉道。
What a bad joke.
真是个糟糕的笑话。
So what is going to happen this year?
那么今年会发生什么呢？
Which way is this going to go?
这将走向何方？
I read the agreement between the government and Columbia again last night.
昨晚我又读了一遍政府和哥伦比亚之间的协议。
It's sprawling.
它正在蔓延。
For a battle that started over antisemitism, the document also covers trans students in locker rooms and international students and admissions and DEI.
对于一场因反犹太主义而开始的斗争，该文件还涵盖了更衣室里的跨性别学生、国际学生以及招生和 DEI。
And what the agreement does is it lets the Trump administration crack down on any of that if it decides the University is out of line.
该协议的作用是，如果特朗普政府认为大学违规，它可以对任何此类行为进行打击。
Maybe it'll choose IHRA, maybe it'll choose something else.
也许它会选择 IHRA，也许它会选择其他东西。
Between the withholding of hundreds of millions of dollars, IHRA, the monitor, this administration has given themselves a new set of tools to transform higher ed.
在扣留数亿美元之间，IHRA、监督者、本届政府为自己提供了一套新的工具来改造高等教育。
Ike Sriskandarajah is a producer on our show.
艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾 (Ike Sriskandarajah) 是我们节目的制片人。
Our program was produced by Miki Meek and Emannuel Dzotsi.
我们的节目由 Miki Meek 和 Emanuel Dzotsi 制作。
It was edited by Chana Joffe-Walt.
由查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 编辑。
People who put together today's show include Phia Bennin, Zoe Chace, Michael Comite, Suzanne Gaber, Sophie Gill, Valerie Kipnis, Katherine Rae Mando, Stowe Nelson, Nadia Reiman, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rumery, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Phia Bennin、Zoe Chace、Michael Comite、Suzanne Gaber、Sophie Gill、Valerie Kipnis、Katherine Rae Mando、Stowe Nelson、Nadia Reiman、Anthony Roman、Ryan Rumery、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Marisa Robertson-Textor、Nancy Updike、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor Sarah Abdurrahman, and our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的执行编辑 Sarah Abdurrahman 和我们的高级编辑是 David Kestenbaum。
Special thanks to Meligha Garfield, Sandrine Mimche, Sadie Werner, Kathryn Bond Stockton, Alex Tokita, Karen Kwan, Bilal Kuchay, Mariya Karimjee, Mike Gavin, Azmat Khan, Maryam Alwan, Cameron Jones, Yoni Kurtz, Allie Arcese, Melanie Storey, Tennessee Watson, Madelyn Beck, Kenneth Stern, Noah Lederman, Xavier Westergaard, Chrystal Bell, and Maya Perkins.
特别鸣谢 Meligha Garfield、Sandrine Mimche、Sadie Werner、Kathryn Bond Stockton、Alex Tokita、Karen Kwan、Bilal Kuchay、Mariya Karimjee、Mike Gavin、Azmat Khan、Maryam Alwan、Cameron Jones、Yoni Kurtz、Allie Arcese、Melanie Storey、Tennessee Watson、Madelyn Beck、Kenneth Stern、Noah Lederman、Xavier Westergaard、克里斯特尔·贝尔和玛雅·帕金斯。
Special thanks as well to the Office of International Student Services and the Office of International Studies and Programs at Michigan State University, and Arno Rosenfeld, who writes the newsletter Antisemitism Decoded at The Forward.
特别感谢密歇根州立大学国际学生服务办公室和国际研究与项目办公室，以及《The Forward》时事通讯《反犹太主义解码》的作者阿诺·罗森菲尔德 (Arno Rosenfeld)。
Thanks also to our This American Life Partners.
还要感谢我们的《This American Life》合作伙伴。
Sign up as a Life Partner and you'll get ad-free listening, a greatest hits archive right in your podcast feed, plus regular exclusive bonus episodes, including dozens that we've already released.
注册成为生活合作伙伴，您将获得无广告干扰的聆听体验、播客源中最热门的热门歌曲存档，以及定期的独家奖励剧集，其中包括我们已经发布的数十个剧集。
Join us at thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.
请访问 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners 加入我们。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to my boss, Ira Glass, who is off this week doing his side hustle, as a personal assistant for Harry and Meghan.
一如既往地感谢我的老板艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），他本周休假去做他的副业，担任哈里和梅根的私人助理。
One of his most important duties is the wake up call.
他最重要的职责之一就是叫醒服务。
For old time's sake, he likes to do it this way.
看在老的份上，他就喜欢这样做。
Good morning, Royals!
早上好，皇家们！
Emanuele Berry I'm Emanuele Berry.
埃马努埃莱·贝瑞 我是埃马努埃莱·贝瑞。
Ira Glass will be back next week with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉·格拉斯将于下周回归，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。