865: The Other Territory - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #865 | August 22, 2025 865: The Other Territory Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 865 集 | 2025 年 8 月 22 日 865：另一片领土 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Hamed's got the vibe of a guy who can handle anything-- a beefy Tony Soprano type, but without the menace.
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯·哈米德 (Ira Glass Hamed) 给人一种无所不能的感觉——一种强壮的托尼·女高音 (Tony Soprano) 类型，但没有威胁。
We're in this big, white, four-wheel-drive pickup truck that he tools around in, me and him and a producer.
我们坐在这辆大型白色四轮驱动皮卡车里，我、他和一位制片人都在里面。
Sawsan Khalife.
索桑·卡利夫。
And Hamed's task this morning requires ingenuity.
哈米德今天早上的任务需要独创性。
His task?
他的任务？
He's got to get to work.
他得去上班了。
Step one, get himself out of Hebron, the city where he lives.
第一步，离开他居住的城市希伯伦。
This is in the West Bank, so movement on the roads is controlled by the Israeli army.
这里位于约旦河西岸，因此道路上的交通由以色列军队控制。
And every day, the army changes which exits out of the city are open.
而每天，出城的军队变动都是开放的。
So I checked on many groups which entrance it's easy to go out.
所以我查了很多团体哪个入口比较容易出去。
These are WhatsApp and Telegram groups.
这些是 WhatsApp 和 Telegram 群组。
Today, they say that only two roads are open in and out of the city of a quarter million people.
如今，他们说进出这座拥有 25 万人口的城市只有两条道路开放。
We drive to one of them, where a handful of soldiers with assault rifles are manning a checkpoint.
我们开车前往其中一个检查站，那里有几名手持突击步枪的士兵正在检查站。
They open this door around 6:00 at morning.
他们早上 6:00 左右打开这扇门。
And we're third in line.
我们排在第三位。
There's a gate, and soldiers are going through the cars.
有一扇门，士兵正在检查汽车。
Yes.
是的。
Also, most of the time, you will stay here between 10 minutes until one hour.
此外，大多数时候，您会在这里停留 10 分钟到 1 小时。
Today, we're lucky.
今天，我们很幸运。
We're early.
我们还早呢
The line's short.
线很短。
And they wave us through without stopping.
他们不停地挥手让我们过去。
After 7:30, Hamed says, they stop every car and it gets really backed up.
哈米德说，7 点 30 分之后，他们会停下所有车辆，然后车辆就会真正停下来。
Hamed works for a company called COMET-ME that sets up solar power, and internet, and water systems in Palestinian villages around the West Bank.
哈米德在一家名为 COMET-ME 的公司工作，该公司在约旦河西岸周围的巴勒斯坦村庄建立太阳能、互联网和供水系统。
So he spends a ton of time driving from place to place and has had to become this kind of weird expert in a thousand details of checkpoints and closed roads and tricks to get around.
因此，他花费了大量的时间开车从一个地方到另一个地方，并且不得不成为这种奇怪的专家，了解检查站和封闭道路的数千个细节以及绕过的技巧。
That suits him.
这很适合他。
I'm the kind of person who likes to talk to everyone, and learn everything, and hear everything, he says.
“我是那种喜欢和每个人交谈、学习一切、倾听一切的人，”他说。
His truck is outfitted with video cameras in case we have any kind of run in with Israeli settlers or the Army.
他的卡车配备了摄像机，以防我们与以色列定居者或军队发生任何冲突。
Hamed's had frightening moments when soldiers pulled guns on him.
当士兵用枪指着哈米德时，他经历了可怕的时刻。
45 minutes into our drive, he pulls over and points to a winding road that climbs up the side of a long, steep hill in the desert.
开车 45 分钟后，他把车停在路边，指着一条蜿蜒的道路，这条道路爬上沙漠中一座又长又陡的山坡。
It's easier to explain this in Arabic, so Sawsan jumps in to translate.
用阿拉伯语解释这一点更容易，所以 Sawsan 介入翻译。
So we can see here, from up the hill way over there, if you could see the road, this is a container crossing.
所以我们可以看到这里，从那边的山上，如果你能看到路，这是一个集装箱过境点。
It's called the container crossing, apparently, because a man used to have a little roadside stand in an old shipping container there.
显然，它被称为集装箱过境点，因为过去有人在那里的一个旧集装箱里设有一个小路边摊。
Now it's the notorious checkpoint that divides the north of the West Bank from the south.
现在，它是分隔西岸北部和南部的臭名昭著的检查站。
See, over there, you can see the queue of cars.
你看，那边，你可以看到汽车在排队。
That means that they're just stopping every car to search the cars.
这意味着他们只是停下每辆车来搜查汽车。
And we can't see any cars moving.
我们看不到任何汽车在行驶。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Sawsan Khalife I would choose to go to alternative route because we're going to get stuck there for a couple of hours.
[阿拉伯语] Sawsan Khalife 我会选择其他路线，因为我们会在那里滞留几个小时。
One possible alternative route is an unpaved road that curves away in the distance that Hamed points to.
一种可能的替代路线是一条未铺砌的道路，该道路在哈米德指向的距离处弯曲。
But he doesn't like that option, because it delivers you to another checkpoint that could be an hour and a half wait.
但他不喜欢这个选项，因为它会把你带到另一个检查站，可能要等一个半小时。
But I have another road.
但我还有另一条路。
Less people, they know this road.
人少，他们都认识这条路。
And do you think that's the best one to do?
你认为这是最好的做法吗？
OK.
好的。
We just turned around and made a U-turn.
我们只是掉头掉头。
Within minutes, we're off the highway and speeding down a two-lane street with houses close on either side.
几分钟之内，我们就离开了高速公路，沿着一条两车道的街道飞速行驶，两边的房子都紧挨着。
The danger with this route, Hamed says, is that we're going to drive by an Israeli settlement, where we can get pulled over for hours, though, he has a plan for that.
哈米德说，这条路线的危险在于我们将开车经过以色列定居点，在那里我们可能会被拦下几个小时，不过他对此有一个计划。
There are people he knows nearby that he can claim that we're visiting if we're stopped.
附近有一些他认识的人，如果我们被拦住，他可以声称我们正在拜访。
We pop out into a clearing, then turn down an unpaved, rocky-- I don't even want to call this a road.
我们冲进一片空地，然后拐进一条未铺砌的岩石路——我什至不想称这是一条路。
It's more like a ledge on the edge of a cliff.
它更像是悬崖边缘的一个壁架。
Hey, could I just pause just to say, this is one of the worst roads I've ever driven on?
嘿，我可以停下来想说一句，这是我开过的最糟糕的道路之一吗？
The car is rocking left and right, as if we were on a stormy sea.
车子左右摇晃，就像在惊涛骇浪中。
And even to keep the car upright, you're having to weave back and forth.
即使为了保持汽车直立，你也必须来回移动。
At one point in this trip, we're on a bumpy, slow road, and Hamed points to an overpass with a freeway that is just for Israelis.
在这次旅行的某个时刻，我们行驶在一条崎岖不平、缓慢的道路上，哈米德指着一座立交桥，上面有一条仅供以色列人使用的高速公路。
Cars with Israeli plates whiz by.
挂着以色列牌照的汽车呼啸而过。
They go through fewer checkpoints.
他们通过的检查站较少。
This whole unequal road system that's way faster for Israelis and way harder for Palestinians, it's nothing new in the West Bank.
整个不平等的道路系统对以色列人来说更快，对巴勒斯坦人来说更困难，这在西岸并不是什么新鲜事。
But after October 7, after the Hamas attack, where some 1,200 Israelis were killed and another 250 taken hostage, the worst attack in Israel's history, the Israeli government struck back not just in Gaza, where Hamas is based, where Israel has now killed over 60,000 people.
但10月7日，哈马斯发动袭击，造成约1,200名以色列人死亡，另有250人被扣为人质，这是以色列历史上最严重的一次袭击。此后，以色列政府不仅在哈马斯总部所在的加沙进行了反击，以色列目前已在那里杀害了6万多人。
They also took action in the West Bank in all kinds of ways.
他们还在约旦河西岸采取了各种方式的行动。
Just one of them was that they installed hundreds of new checkpoints and roadblocks.
其中之一就是他们安装了数百个新的检查站和路障。
From the highway, you see these yellow and orange gates that are locked shut one after another, blocking off passage to Palestinian villages, isolating them.
从高速公路上，你可以看到这些黄色和橙色的大门一扇又一扇地锁着，封锁了通往巴勒斯坦村庄的通道，将它们隔离开来。
Sometimes you see people going around the gates and running across the highway to get everyday stuff done.
有时你会看到人们绕过大门，跑过高速公路来完成日常事务。
We pass one roadblock.
我们经过一个路障。
It's a mound of rocks piled 6 or 7 feet high in the middle of a street.
这是街道中央堆起的 6 或 7 英尺高的岩石堆。
Another is a big gate that Hamed points to and says that behind it is a community that his company, COMET, provides services to.
另一个是哈米德指着的一扇大门，并说其后面是他的公司 COMET 提供服务的社区。
And in order for us to be able to get to our communities, we would have to drive-- instead of five minutes to get to them from here, we would have to drive 35 minutes to 40 minutes because the gate now is closed.
为了让我们能够到达我们的社区，我们必须开车——从这里到达他们不再需要五分钟，而是需要开车 35 分钟到 40 分钟，因为大门现在关闭了。
And has this gate been closed permanently since October 7?
这扇门从10月7日起就永久关闭了吗？
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass Our trip this morning ends up taking 2 and 1/2 hours.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我们今天早上的行程总共花了 2又 1/2 小时。
We end up in a tiny village outside Jericho.
我们最终来到了杰里科郊外的一个小村庄。
Hamed says the checkpoints and roadblocks added over an hour to the trip.
哈米德说，检查站和路障使行程增加了一个多小时。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Ira Glass His team is putting in water filtration and security cameras this particular day.
[阿拉伯语] Ira Glass 他的团队在这一天安装了水过滤和安全摄像头。
And one of his coworkers was not as lucky on the roads.
他的一位同事在路上就没那么幸运了。
I'll call him Sam.
我就叫他山姆吧。
All these names are made up, by the way.
顺便说一下，所有这些名字都是编造的。
They all worry about retaliation from the Israelis.
他们都担心以色列人的报复。
Sam came to work in this village today from the North, which should have taken less than an hour.
萨姆今天从北方来到这个村子上班，本来应该用不了一个小时的时间。
But because of a checkpoint, it took six.
但因为有检查站，所以花了六个时间。
Six hours.
六个小时。
Ira Glass Did they search your car?
Ira Glass 他们搜查了你的车吗？
This is the point.
这就是重点。
They didn't check anything.
他们没有检查任何东西。
They just want you to suffering in the road.
他们只是想让你在路上受苦。
They don't do anything.
他们什么也不做。
But they just want to waste your time and humiliate you, just like that.
但他们只是想浪费你的时间并羞辱你，就这样。
They want to let us know that they are owning these roads.
他们想让我们知道他们拥有这些道路。
Do some works on my laptops, sometimes, sometimes watching the news, sometimes nothing, just hear some songs or something.
在我的笔记本电脑上做一些工作，有时，有时看新闻，有时什么也不做，只是听一些歌什么的。
The Israeli military categorically denies that it's using checkpoints and roadblocks to disrupt the lives of Palestinians.
以色列军方断然否认其使用检查站和路障扰乱巴勒斯坦人的生活。
A spokesperson wrote to us that security forces operate, quote, "under a complex security reality, where terrorists embed themselves within the civilian population.
一位发言人写信给我们，引用安全部队的行动，“在复杂的安全现实下，恐怖分子扎根于平民之中。
Accordingly, there are dynamic checkpoints and ongoing efforts to monitor movement." They said the military tries to maintain, quote, "as much as possible, the routine of everyday life of the population of the area."
因此，有动态检查站并持续努力监测行动。”他们说，军方试图“尽可能地维持该地区居民的日常生活”。
Sam sees it differently.
萨姆有不同的看法。
He described the feeling of helplessness that he gets waiting for hours in line at a checkpoint in this way that I didn't totally get at first.
他描述了他在检查站排队等待数小时的无助感，而我一开始并没有完全理解这种感觉。
Let me share this with you.
让我与您分享这一点。
He says it feels like your hand or some other piece of your body has been cut off and is lying on the ground in front of you.
他说，感觉就像你的手或身体的其他部分被切断并躺在你面前的地上。
And you see it there.
你在那里看到了。
And you can't do anything about it.
而你对此无能为力。
And you must say it's OK.
你必须说没关系。
Ira Glass You must say it's OK because--
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：你一定会说没关系，因为——
Because you can't do something about that.
因为你对此无能为力。
It's an occupation.
这是一种职业。
So much has gotten worse in the West Bank since October 7 for Palestinians-- more violence, more of them driven off their land.
自 10 月 7 日以来，约旦河西岸的巴勒斯坦人情况变得更加糟糕——更多的暴力，更多的人被赶出自己的土地。
The Israeli government has done things to choke the economy.
以色列政府采取了一些措施来抑制经济。
Unemployment has soared.
失业率飙升。
There's been a wave of people arrested and imprisoned with no charges and no trials.
有一波人在没有受到指控和审判的情况下被逮捕和监禁。
But I'm starting today's program talking about roadblocks and checkpoints.
但我今天的节目要开始讨论路障和检查站。
Because when I talked to people around the West Bank about what feels different since October 7, so many people pointed to just this everyday stuff.
因为当我与约旦河西岸各地的人们谈论自 10 月 7 日以来的不同感受时，很多人都指出了这些日常用品。
Like, the difficulty of getting from place to place has gotten harder.
就像，从一个地方到另一个地方的难度变得更加困难。
As Hamed put it--
正如哈米德所说——
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Sawsan Khalife You can't predict anything, so you're constantly under pressure.
[阿拉伯语] Sawsan Khalife 您无法预测任何事情，因此您始终处于压力之下。
There's stress around you all the time.
你身边时刻都有压力。
It squeezes on your life, Hamed says, stresses him out.
哈米德说，这会挤压你的生活，给他带来压力。
When he goes to the doctor these days, his blood pressure is higher than in the past.
这几天他去看医生时，他的血压比以前高了。
He gets mad about little stuff.
他会因为一些小事而生气。
He knows that he's overreacting.
他知道自己反应过度了。
We're going to spend today's whole show in the West Bank.
我们将在约旦河西岸度过今天的整个演出。
And I think I should pause now, just so everybody is on the same page about what the West Bank is.
我想我现在应该暂停一下，这样每个人都对西岸是什么有共识。
So if you picture Israel, it's a country roughly the size and shape of New Jersey.
因此，如果你想象以色列，它的大小和形状与新泽西州差不多。
Gaza, where the Gaza war's been happening, is a little strip of land carved out in the West.
加沙战争发生的地方加沙是西方开辟的一小片土地。
2 million Palestinians live there, roughly.
大约有 200 万巴勒斯坦人居住在那里。
3 million Palestinians live in the West Bank.
300万巴勒斯坦人生活在约旦河西岸。
It is a much, much bigger chunk of land on the East side.
这是东侧一大块大得多的土地。
OK, I know-- east side, West Bank.
好的，我知道——东边，西岸。
It's called the West Bank because it runs along the West Bank of the Jordan River.
它之所以被称为西岸，是因为它沿着约旦河西岸延伸。
Israel took over the West Bank and Gaza in a war in 1967 and put them under military occupation until It figured out whether it was going to make that land part of Israel or give it to the Palestinian people in exchange for peace.
以色列在1967年的一场战争中占领了约旦河西岸和加沙地带，并将其置于军事占领之下，直到它弄清楚是否要将这片土地纳入以色列的一部分，或者将其交给巴勒斯坦人民以换取和平。
If the Palestinian people are ever going to get their own state, the West Bank will probably be the heart of it.
如果巴勒斯坦人民想要建立自己的国家，约旦河西岸可能会成为其核心。
Still with me?
还在我身边吗？
All right.
好的。
So trying to understand what was happening on the West Bank, there's this kind of remarkable document that I learned about.
因此，为了了解西岸正在发生的事情，我了解到了一份非凡的文件。
It was written by the Israeli government minister who was called the Overlord of the West Bank by one Israeli publication because, basically, he calls the shots there for the current government.
它是由以色列政府部长撰写的，他被以色列一家出版物称为西岸霸主，因为基本上，他是现任政府在那里发号施令的人。
His name is Bezalel Smotrich.
他的名字叫贝扎雷尔·斯莫特里奇。
And before he got this job, back in 2017, when he was a member of the Israeli parliament, he published a manifesto whose title roughly translates to "The Decisive Plan," in which he argues that as long as Palestinians continue to hope for their own homeland, the conflict between Jews and Palestinians is going to continue forever.
在他获得这份工作之前，2017年，当他还是以色列议会议员时，他发表了一份宣言，标题大致翻译为“决定性计划”，其中他认为，只要巴勒斯坦人继续对自己的家园抱有希望，犹太人和巴勒斯坦人之间的冲突就会永远持续下去。
They'll always be at war.
他们将永远处于战争状态。
And so he says Israel's first goal should be to destroy hope, destroy Palestinians' hopes of ever getting their own state or homeland.
因此他说，以色列的首要目标应该是摧毁希望，摧毁巴勒斯坦人获得自己国家或家园的希望。
And he says Israel can do that by claiming more land and building more homes for Jews, by changing the facts on the ground until, for Palestinians, quote, "The point will come when frustration will cross the threshold of despair and will lead to acceptance and understanding that their cause stands no chance.
他说，以色列可以通过以下方式做到这一点：为犹太人索取更多土地并建造更多家园，改变当地的事实，直到巴勒斯坦人引用，“当挫折感跨越绝望的门槛，并导致人们接受和理解他们的事业没有机会的时候，这一点就会到来。
It simply isn't going to happen."
这根本不会发生。”
At that point, he says Israel should offer them a choice-- leave and go elsewhere, or stay as second-class residents, not full citizens.
他说，到那时，以色列应该为他们提供一个选择——离开并前往其他地方，或者继续作为二等居民，而不是正式公民。
And Israel will be a Jewish state, quote, "from the river to the sea."
以色列将成为一个犹太国家，引用的话，“从河流到海洋”。
Smotrich turned down our request for an interview.
斯莫特里奇拒绝了我们的采访请求。
But in the last two weeks, he made international headlines describing his current intentions for the West Bank.
但在过去两周，他描述了他目前对约旦河西岸的意图，成为国际头条新闻。
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Ira Glass He was at an Israeli settlement outdoors at a podium, announcing that Israel was going to be building thousands of new homes in the West Bank in a spot that would effectively split the West Bank in half.
[希伯来语]艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 他在以色列定居点户外的讲台上宣布，以色列将在约旦河西岸建造数千套新房屋，该地点实际上会将约旦河西岸一分为二。
The line that made international headlines was when Smotrich said, "This reality completely buries the idea of a Palestinian state."
斯莫特里奇的这句话成为国际头条新闻，“这一现实完全掩盖了巴勒斯坦建国的想法。”
In the last few weeks, France, Britain, Australia, and Canada have announced their intention to possibly recognize a Palestinian state.
过去几周，法国、英国、澳大利亚和加拿大宣布有意承认巴勒斯坦国。
And Smotrich addressed those countries directly in his speech in terms that echoed his decisive plan.
斯莫特里奇在讲话中直接向这些国家讲话，其措辞呼应了他的果断计划。
He's saying, anybody who tries to recognize a Palestinian state today in the world will receive our answer on the ground, not in documents, not in decisions or statements, but in facts-- facts of houses, facts of neighborhoods, roads, and more and more Jewish families that build lives.
他说，今天世界上任何试图承认巴勒斯坦国的人都会在实地得到我们的答案，不是在文件中，不是在决定或声明中，而是在事实中——房屋的事实、社区的事实、道路的事实，以及越来越多建设生活的犹太家庭的事实。
Today on our show, we go to the West Bank.
今天在我们的节目中，我们去了约旦河西岸。
I think the horror of what has been happening in Gaza has taken up so much of our attention that lots of us, me included, haven't really taken in the dramatic changes in the West Bank since October 7 in settlements, in violence, in daily life under Minister Smotrich and the current government.
我认为加沙发生的恐怖事件引起了我们太多的关注，以至于我们很多人，包括我在内，都没有真正意识到自 10 月 7 日以来西岸在定居点、暴力以及斯莫特里奇部长和现任政府领导下的日常生活中发生的巨大变化。
Israel's actions right now in the West Bank seem to have two goals-- to crush the idea that a Palestinian state will ever be there and, as Smotrich wrote in 2017, to drive Palestinians to cross the threshold of despair.
以色列目前在约旦河西岸的行动似乎有两个目标——粉碎巴勒斯坦国将在那里建立的想法，以及正如斯莫特里奇在 2017 年所写的那样，推动巴勒斯坦人跨过绝望的门槛。
When he wrote that he was talking about building Israeli settlements, but I think it might also describe lots of things that have been happening lately.
当他写道他正在谈论建造以色列定居点时，但我认为这也可能描述了最近发生的很多事情。
Some of the details of this really surprised me.
其中的一些细节确实让我感到惊讶。
I'm guessing they might surprise you too.
我猜他们也会让你感到惊讶。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
It's This American Life, our show today about the West Bank.
这是《美国生活》，我们今天的节目是关于约旦河西岸的。
Act One, Ali and the Duster.
第一幕，阿里和除尘器。
So the current Israeli government took power about a year before October 7.
因此以色列现任政府大约在 10 月 7 日之前一年就上台了。
From the start, it's been aggressively on the side of helping Jewish settlers build more homes and take more territory in the West Bank.
从一开始，它就积极帮助犹太定居者在西岸建造更多房屋并占领更多领土。
Minister Smotrich talks about this proudly, how they've approved record numbers of new homes for Israelis there.
斯莫特里奇部长自豪地谈论了这一点，以及他们如何批准在那里为以色列人建造创纪录数量的新住房。
All these settlements are seen as illegal under international law by most of the international community.
根据国际法，所有这些定居点被大多数国际社会视为非法。
But as part of that expansion, settlers have been pushing Palestinians off their land in the West Bank in record numbers.
但作为扩张的一部分，定居者以创纪录的数量将巴勒斯坦人赶出西岸的土地。
A group in Israel that monitors settlement expansion, Peace Now's Settlement Watch project, says that since October 7, settlers have pushed more than 80 Palestinian communities off their land.
以色列监测定居点扩张的组织“立即和平”定居点观察项目表示，自 10 月 7 日以来，定居者已将 80 多个巴勒斯坦社区赶出他们的土地。
Before October 7, settlers had only done that six times.
10 月 7 日之前，定居者只这样做过六次。
And there's way more violence now against Palestinians in the West Bank, by the Israeli military and Israeli settlers, since October 7, and way more Palestinians killed than in the past.
自 10 月 7 日以来，以色列军队和以色列定居者在西岸针对巴勒斯坦人的暴力行为越来越多，被杀的巴勒斯坦人也比过去多得多。
Hagit Ofran, the co-director of Settlement Watch, described Israel's attitude since October 7 this way.
“和解观察”联合主任哈吉特·奥夫兰这样形容以色列自10月7日以来的态度。
Everything can be justified because look what they did to us, look how dangerous they are.
一切都是合理的，因为看看他们对我们做了什么，看看他们有多么危险。
But I think also, the feeling of settlers now, that they are in charge.
但我也认为，现在定居者的感觉是他们负责。
They have no limits.
他们没有限制。
They have their back covered by this government.
他们有这个政府的支持。
They can do whatever they want.
他们可以为所欲为。
Nobody's going to hurt them.
没有人会伤害他们。
That's a big change.
这是一个很大的变化。
One of the producers of today's show is an Israeli journalist, Yael Even Or.
今天节目的制作人之一是以色列记者 Yael Even Or。
She was interested in what it's like for these Palestinian communities coming under all this increased pressure to leave.
她对这些承受着越来越大的离开压力的巴勒斯坦社区的感受很感兴趣。
And she was calling around, talking to lots of people, until somebody said to her, you know who should call about this?
她四处打电话，与很多人交谈，直到有人对她说，你知道谁应该打电话询问这件事吗？
Ali Awad.
阿里·阿瓦德.
Ali's 27.
阿里27岁了。
He lives in a tiny village called Tuba, one of 19 villages in an area called Masafer Yatta, where they filmed that movie No Other Land that won the Oscar this year and where the intimidation and harassment has been intense.
他住在一个叫 Tuba 的小村庄，这是 Masafer Yatta 地区 19 个村庄之一，他们在那里拍摄了今年获得奥斯卡奖的电影《No Other Land》，那里的恐吓和骚扰非常严重。
Ali had been studying for his masters in English.
阿里一直在攻读英语硕士学位。
He wanted to be a college English teacher.
他想成为一名大学英语老师。
But instead, he's become kind of the protector of his little village.
但相反，他成了他的小村庄的保护者。
Yael talked to him over months, as he had to deal with an escalating series of events that really demonstrate how things are changing in lots of parts of the West Bank.
耶尔与他交谈了几个月，因为他必须处理一系列不断升级的事件，这些事件真正展示了西岸许多地区的情况正在发生怎样的变化。
Here's Yael.
这是耶尔。
When I first talked to Ali, back in November, the main thing he was doing all day was driving people around-- to their doctor's appointments, family gatherings, the police station.
当我第一次和阿里交谈时，是在 11 月份，他整天做的主要事情就是开车送人们四处走动——去看医生、参加家庭聚会、去警察局。
He has the only car in Tuba, one car for 80 people
他拥有图巴唯一一辆车，一辆车可容纳80人
I am every day available, like 24/7, all the month.
我整个月每天都有空，就像 24/7 一样。
And how do you manage your calendar or schedule?
您如何管理您的日历或日程安排？
Do you write it down somewhere if someone says I need to go there on Sunday?
如果有人说我周日需要去那里，你会在某处写下来吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I have a group on my WhatsApp called Talk to Myself, which is only myself.
我的 WhatsApp 上有一个名为“Talk to Myself”的群组，里面只有我自己。
[LAUGHTER] So I check it every evening to see what, tomorrow, I'm up to.
[笑声] 所以我每天晚上都会检查一下，看看明天我要做什么。
Ali's car is important to Tuba because the village is totally isolated.
阿里的车对图巴来说很重要，因为这个村庄完全与世隔绝。
There's only one road in and out.
进出只有一条路。
Tuba is way up on a hill, and the road is rocky, valleys right below you.
图巴位于一座小山上，道路崎岖不平，山谷就在你的脚下。
It requires a skilled driver and an SUV.
它需要熟练的驾驶员和SUV。
But what probably makes it hardest to go in and out of Tuba are the settlements.
但进出图巴最困难的可能是定居点。
They surround Tuba on three sides and cut it off from the rest of the Palestinian villages nearby.
他们从三边包围了图巴，切断了它与附近其他巴勒斯坦村庄的联系。
The Palestinians can't walk or drive through them, so Ali drives everyone up and down the rocky hill.
巴勒斯坦人无法步行或开车穿过它们，因此阿里开车送大家上下岩石山。
He told me he's the taxi driver, the grocery delivery guy, and the ambulance driver, all combined.
他告诉我他是出租车司机、杂货送货员和救护车司机，三者兼而有之。
One of the first things you see when you get to Tuba are the animals.
到达蒂巴时，您首先看到的东西之一就是动物。
Ali's family are shepherds.
阿里的家人都是牧羊人。
He gave me a tour.
他带我参观了。
There are camels, chickens, goats, and hundreds of sheep.
有骆驼、鸡、山羊和数百只绵羊。
It's the time for them to start getting fertilized for the first time.
这是他们第一次开始受精的时间。
How do they get fertilized, as you said?
正如你所说，它们如何受精？
Naturally.
自然。
They-- Yael Even-Or They just hook up?
他们——Yael Even——或者他们只是勾搭上？
Yes, they just hook up.
是的，他们只是连接起来。
But we have kind of a medicine, hormones that will motivate the appetite.
但我们有一种药物，即激素，可以刺激食欲。
I was waiting to see what words you're going to use for this.
我正等着看你会用什么词来表达这个。
[LAUGHS] To motivate the appetite is OK word?
[笑]激发食欲这个词可以吗？
It's good enough for public radio, I think yeah.
我想这对于公共广播来说已经足够了。
Ali's telling his cousin, Jude, who's nine, to get off the tractor.
阿里告诉他九岁的表弟裘德从拖拉机上下来。
Here's the other thing you'd see in Tuba right away, besides the animals.
除了动物之外，这是您在图巴立即看到的其他东西。
It's Israel's flag, which feels completely out of place overlooking this Palestinian village.
这是以色列的国旗，俯瞰这个巴勒斯坦村庄感觉完全不合适。
It's at the top of the hill, just above Ali's family's compound.
它位于山顶，就在阿里家的大院上方。
Ali thinks it was placed there by settlers from the nearby outpost, Chavat Maon.
阿里认为它是附近查瓦特马翁前哨站的定居者放置在那里的。
Right after October 7, they built a road from the outpost to the top of the hill.
10月7日刚过，他们就修建了一条从哨所到山顶的道路。
And they put this flag, you see, 200 meters from here.
你看，他们把这面旗帜挂在距离这里 200 米的地方。
If I get there, I will be arrested.
如果我到达那里，我就会被捕。
The flag hovers over Tuba-- a reminder from the settlers, day and night, we're right here.
旗帜飘扬在图巴上空——定居者的提醒，无论白天黑夜，我们都在这里。
One of the first problems that cropped up after October 7 that kept Ali and his car busy was how to get kids to school.
10 月 7 日之后出现的首要问题之一就是如何送孩子们上学，这让阿里和他的车忙得不可开交。
For 19 years, the kids from Tuba had the Israeli military escort them as they walked to school, sometimes with an armored military vehicle.
19 年来，图巴的孩子们步行上学时都由以色列军队护送，有时还用装甲军车护送。
Because to get to school, they had to walk through Chavat Maon, the outpost.
因为要去学校，他们必须穿过前哨站 Chavat Maon。
And the settlers would attack them on their way, throw rocks at them.
定居者会在途中攻击他们，向他们扔石头。
It happened to Ali when he was a kid.
阿里小时候就发生过这样的事。
I actually found some footage of him in an old Al Jazeera story.
我实际上在半岛电视台的一个旧故事中找到了他的一些镜头。
Ali was 17 at the time.
阿里当时17岁。
Sometimes they throw rocks, a lot of rocks, a lot of rocks as rain falling.
有时他们会扔石头，很多石头，很多石头，就像下雨一样。
After October 7, the military refused to escort the kids anymore.
10月7日之后，军队拒绝再护送孩子们。
The military told us that this decision was due to a lack of manpower and for security reasons.
军方告诉我们，这一决定是由于缺乏人力和安全原因。
So Ali added to his list school bus driver.
因此阿里将校车司机添加到他的名单中。
He started driving the kids, as many as 14 of them.
他开始开车送孩子们，多达 14 个孩子。
They'd all try to cram in.
他们都会想办法挤进去。
Sometimes it would take two trips.
有时需要两次旅行。
Sometimes about candies.
有时候会和糖果有关。
[LAUGHS] Sometimes about homeworks.
[笑]有时是关于家庭作业。
Ali now knows a bunch of not-very-important secrets, he tells me.
阿里告诉我，他现在知道了一堆不太重要的秘密。
The school is actually pretty close by, about 1.5 miles, but he has to take this long way around because he can't go near the outpost.
学校实际上就在附近，大约1.5英里，但他必须绕这么远的路，因为他不能靠近前哨站。
The roundtrip takes him a little over an hour.
往返需要他一个多小时。
That's the nature of the occupation in the West Bank.
这就是西岸占领的本质。
It makes the Palestinians constantly work harder to get back to the thing that was normal a second ago, even though it wasn't even normal in the first place.
这使得巴勒斯坦人不断努力恢复到上一秒之前的正常状态，尽管它一开始就不正常。
The house Ali shares with his uncle and aunt is on a little rise.
阿里与叔叔和婶婶合住的房子价格略有上涨。
His room doesn't have much on the walls.
他的房间墙上没有太多东西。
He's not big on decorations.
他对装饰并不热衷。
There are only two photos.
只有两张照片。
Both of them are of his car.
两人都是他的车。
One is a total glam shot of the car at the car wash.
其中一张是在洗车场拍摄的汽车的华丽照片。
I took this picture and sent to my mom.
我拍了这张照片并发送给我妈妈。
Because here, the car gets very dusty.
因为在这里，车里灰尘非常多。
And she was always telling me, you need also to clean the car sometimes.
她总是告诉我，有时你也需要清洁汽车。
So I sent her a photo showing how clean the car could be.
所以我给她发了一张照片，显示这辆车有多干净。
Can I just say, the way you took this picture, I'm getting the feeling that you're very proud of this car.
我只能说，从你拍这张照片的方式，我感觉到你对这辆车感到非常自豪。
Yeah, you can see.
是的，你可以看到。
Some people also use the pronoun "it" for the car.
有些人还使用代词“it”来表示汽车。
I use the pronoun "she" for her.
我用代词“她”来称呼她。
And people would say, you are in a relationship with this car.
人们会说，你和这辆车有关系。
Ali bought her after the first car he got broke on the highway one day.
有一天，阿里的第一辆车在高速公路上报废后，他买下了她。
Not to name names, but it was a Kia Sportage.
不透露姓名，但那是一辆起亚狮跑。
This one is much better, a Romanian car, a Dacia Duster, an SUV.
这个要好得多，一辆罗马尼亚汽车，一辆达西亚达斯特，一辆SUV。
His is white.
他的是白色的。
If cars had faces, I'd say this one is frowning.
如果汽车有脸，我会说这辆车是皱着眉头的。
Ali keeps it in top shape, so it never breaks down near a settlement and can always get out of a dangerous situation quickly.
阿里将其保持在最佳状态，因此它永远不会在定居点附近发生故障，并且总能快速摆脱危险局面。
He spends nearly all of his money on it.
他几乎把所有的钱都花在了上面。
I don't have kids.
我没有孩子。
I don't have my own kids.
我没有自己的孩子。
I don't have other expenses than my cigarettes and my car.
除了香烟和汽车之外，我没有其他开支。
Spending all your life, your energy, your money on the car is to, as a driver, to make sure that everyone in your car in the journey is safe as-- as much as possible.
作为一名司机，把你的一生、你的精力、你的钱都花在汽车上，是为了尽可能确保旅途中车里的每个人都安全。
The thing is, it's not just Palestinians in the area who know the Dacia Duster.
问题是，了解达契亚除尘器的不仅仅是该地区的巴勒斯坦人。
Some settlers know it too.
一些定居者也知道这一点。
In January, three months after October 7, Ali was driving his neighbor.
1月，也就是10月7日之后的三个月，阿里正在开车送他的邻居。
They were on the highway.
他们在高速公路上。
Suddenly, another driver threw a glass bottle at them.
突然，另一名司机向他们扔了一个玻璃瓶。
It shattered a mirror.
它打碎了一面镜子。
It was very scary.
非常可怕。
Ali thinks it might have been a nearby settler who recognized his car.
阿里认为可能是附近的一位定居者认出了他的车。
The neighbor told Ali he should drive less, keep a low profile.
邻居告诉阿里他应该少开车，保持低调。
But Ali kept on driving.
但阿里继续开车。
The first settlers near Tuba set up shop in 1981.
第一批定居者于 1981 年在图巴 (Tuba) 附近开设了商店。
Today, about 550 people live there.
如今，大约有 550 人住在那里。
The settlement's called Maon.
该定居点称为马翁（Maon）。
They have schools, a library, youth club.
他们有学校、图书馆、青年俱乐部。
20 years later, an outpost, Chavat Maon, was established nearby.
20 年后，附近建立了一个名为 Chavat Maon 的前哨基地。
It's illegal under Israeli law.
根据以色列法律，这是非法的。
And nearly 20 years after that, Chavat Maon sprung its own illegal outpost called Maane Farm after the local settler leader who started it, Isaschar Maane.
近 20 年后，Chavat Maon 建立了自己的非法前哨基地，名为 Maane 农场，以当地定居者领袖 Isaschar Maane 的名字命名。
This newer outpost is a sheep farm and a sort of Airbnb-type setup with a campsite as well.
这个较新的前哨基地是一个养羊场，也是一种 Airbnb 类型的设施，还设有露营地。
It has 106 Google reviews with an average of 4.9 stars.
它有 106 条 Google 评论，平均 4.9 星。
Ali has known Isaschar Maane since he was a kid.
阿里从小就认识伊萨沙尔·马内。
He remembers him harassing them on their way to school.
他记得他在他们上学的路上骚扰他们。
And nowadays, he sees him around Tuba, he says, at least once a week.
他说，现在他每周至少会在图巴身边见到他一次。
We reached out to Isaschar Maane for comment but did not hear back.
我们联系了 Isaschar Maane 请其置评，但没有收到回复。
His wife told us he had no interest in speaking.
他的妻子告诉我们他没有兴趣说话。
Before October 7, the settlers would mainly mess with the Palestinians when they got close to the settlements.
10月7日之前，定居者主要是在靠近定居点时与巴勒斯坦人发生冲突。
Since October 7, the settlers are closing in on the residents of Tuba and even entering the village.
自10月7日起，定居者开始逼近图巴居民，甚至进入村庄。
Ali told me and my producer, Dana, about a day last summer.
阿里向我和我的制片人达纳讲述了去年夏天的一天。
It was around 8:00, half past 8:00 in the morning or 9:00.
当时是8:00左右，早上8:00半或者9:00。
My uncle was grazing, like, 300 sheep under his house, where we are sitting, 200 meters under us.
我叔叔正在他的房子下面放牧大约 300 只羊，我们就坐在那里，距离我们 200 米。
The bottom of this valley just below us.
这个山谷的底部就在我们下面。
And suddenly, he saw four masked settlers--
突然，他看到四个蒙面定居者——
Four settlers wearing masks.
四名戴着口罩的定居者。
Ali Awad --in the middle of his flock.
阿里·阿瓦德——在他的羊群中间。
Two started to run towards him, to scare him.
有两个人开始向他跑来，吓唬他。
And in the same time, two start to take the sheep to the settlement.
与此同时，两个人开始把羊赶到定居点。
How many did they get?
他们得到了多少？
Ali Awad They took everything.
阿里·阿瓦德 他们拿走了一切。
All the sheep?
全是羊？
Ali Awad All the sheep.
阿里·阿瓦德 所有的羊。
They start to run with the sheep.
他们开始和羊一起奔跑。
And his wife and himself were screaming at me, the settlers took everything we have, and come help us.
他的妻子和他本人对我尖叫，定居者拿走了我们拥有的一切，并来帮助我们。
So Ali comes running and starts recording on his phone.
于是阿里跑过来并开始用手机录音。
Halfway up a big hill, he finds them.
在一座大山的半山腰上，他找到了他们。
At the start of the video, you see two men.
在视频的开头，你看到两个男人。
They're young, wearing masks.
他们很年轻，戴着面具。
They both have large sticks in their hands.
他们手里都拿着大棍子。
One has a rock as well.
其中一个也有一块岩石。
They're threatening his aunt.
他们在威胁他的姨妈。
Ali's pleading with them in Hebrew.
阿里用希伯来语恳求他们。
Stop.
停止。
Stop.
停止。
Put down the rock.
把石头放下。
The men yell at Ali to go home.
男人们对阿里大喊，让他回家。
When he starts running back, they chase him.
当他开始往回跑时，他们就追赶他。
But then something surprising happens.
但随后发生了令人惊讶的事情。
While they were attacking us for a couple of minutes, our sheep ran back to our house, [LAUGHS] to the direction of our house, out of their hands, out of their control.
当他们攻击我们几分钟时，我们的羊跑回我们的房子，[笑]跑向我们房子的方向，脱离了他们的控制，脱离了他们的控制。
Ali is proud when he tells the story because it was a rare victory-- 300 sheep saved.
阿里在讲述这个故事时感到很自豪，因为这是一次罕见的胜利——拯救了 300 只羊。
Sheep theft has become an increasingly common phenomenon in the West Bank.
偷羊现象在西岸日益普遍。
A lot of times people don't get them back, which means losing their entire livelihood.
很多时候人们无法取回它们，这意味着失去全部生计。
Ali says 300 sheep are worth roughly $125,000.
阿里说 300 只羊的价值约为 125,000 美元。
I've seen even higher estimates.
我见过更高的估计。
Ali doesn't really sleep at night anymore, thanks to the constant threats from settlers and his own hypervigilance.
由于定居者的不断威胁和他自己的高度警惕，阿里晚上不再真正睡觉了。
So he stays up most of the night and keeps watch over the village.
于是他就彻夜不眠，看守着村子。
He started doing this a few months before October 7.
他在 10 月 7 日之前几个月就开始这样做了。
But after, he got even more anxious.
但之后，他却更加着急了。
The government handed out weapons in settlements, at least 3,000 of them in the first two weeks of the war.
政府在定居点发放了武器，在战争的头两周内至少发放了 3,000 件。
They also gave ATVs to settlers near Tuba.
他们还向图巴附近的定居者提供了全地形车。
And a lot more settlers began walking around in military uniforms.
更多的定居者开始穿着军装四处走动。
I called Ali while he was up one night.
有一天晚上，阿里还没睡，我给他打了电话。
He was in his room, sitting on his couch, getting up to go to the door every few minutes, where he had a good view of the family compound.
他在自己的房间里，坐在沙发上，每隔几分钟就起身走到门口，在那里他可以清楚地看到家里的大院。
He was drinking tea and smoking.
他一边喝茶，一边抽烟。
How many cigarettes do you do usually go through?
您通常吸多少支烟？
Yeah, Between 7 to 10.
是的，7到10之间。
You don't smoke, right?
你不抽烟，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
[LAUGHS] When I was a little older than you, I quit.
[笑]当我比你大一点的时候，我就辞职了。
So you have some time.
所以你还有一些时间。
But you should quit.
但你应该放弃。
[LAUGHS] Yael Even-Or Sometimes it's quiet.
[笑] Yael Even-Or 有时很安静。
Nothing happens.
什么也没发生。
Other nights, it's not.
其他晚上则不然。
Just right now, while I'm talking with you, I hear outside of my room that a settler on ATV just passed through our villages.
就在现在，当我和你说话的时候，我听到房间外面有一个开着全地形车的定居者刚刚经过我们的村庄。
Yes.
是的。
Like, outside of my door, there is a settler right now.
就像，在我的门外，现在有一个定居者。
No reason for the settlers to pass through Tuba-- they have much better roads on the other side of their outposts.
定居者没有理由经过图巴——他们的前哨基地的另一边有更好的道路。
Sometimes Ali shines a big flashlight at them as they drive by so they know he's there, keeping an eye out.
有时，当他们开车经过时，阿里会用手电筒照向他们，这样他们就知道他就在那儿，时刻留意着。
After a few months of taking the kids to school, Ali found a different arrangement for them and then spent a lot of his time driving people to the police station to file complaints after altercations with settlers.
在送孩子们上学几个月后，阿里为他们找到了不同的安排，然后在与定居者发生争执后，花了很多时间开车送人们去警察局投诉。
But Ali doesn't have much hope that the police will help them.
但阿里并不希望警方帮助他们。
In the last two decades, 94% of settler violence investigations ended without charges, according to human rights organization, Yesh Din.
据人权组织 Yesh Din 称，在过去 20 年里，94% 的定居者暴力调查都在没有提出指控的情况下结束。
Still, Ali goes to the police because he wants to have a record of everything in case they end up in court in the future.
尽管如此，阿里还是去了警察局，因为他想保留一切记录，以防将来他们最终上法庭。
Things got so bad in the West Bank after October 7 that in 2024, for the first time, the United States imposed sanctions on individuals and entities there.
10 月 7 日之后，约旦河西岸的局势变得如此糟糕，以至于美国于 2024 年首次对那里的个人和实体实施制裁。
Isaschar Maane, the settler leader who started the nearby shepherding outpost, caught the attention of the Biden administration.
定居者领袖伊萨沙·马恩（Isaschar Maane）在附近建立了牧羊前哨，引起了拜登政府的注意。
They placed sanctions on him and on his outpost.
他们对他和他的前哨基地实施了制裁。
Sanctions can make it really hard to use credit cards or banks.
制裁可能会使信用卡或银行的使用变得非常困难。
But in January, Donald Trump took office.
但在一月份，唐纳德·特朗普上任。
And the same day, he decided to call off all sanctions on West Bank settlements and individuals.
同一天，他决定取消对西岸定居点和个人的所有制裁。
We don't know if that's why, but after that, settler violence intensified in Masafer Yatta, where Tuba is.
我们不知道是否是这个原因，但此后，图巴所在的马萨费尔亚塔的定居者暴力加剧。
And my next call with Ali, less than a week later, was different than all the others.
不到一周后，我与阿里的下一次通话与其他通话有所不同。
Hello, hello?
喂，喂？
Yael Even-Or Hi.
Yael Even-Or 嗨。
Can you hear me?
你能听到我吗？
Can you hear me well?
你能听清楚我说话吗？
Yael Even-Or I'd seen online that something big had happened in his village.
Yael Even-Or 我在网上看到他的村庄发生了一件大事。
So I was sitting in the car, and I was drinking tea, and I was waiting for a call.
于是我坐在车里，一边喝茶，一边等电话。
Then suddenly, I saw them, six masked settlers running toward me.
然后突然，我看到了他们，六个戴着面具的定居者向我跑来。
I saw them running from above the hill, down-- you know that-- you feel that it's like a storm.
我看到他们从山上跑下来——你知道的——你感觉就像一场风暴。
What I remember is like a sand storm or whatever, coming very fast towards us.
我记得就像沙尘暴什么的，以非常快的速度向我们袭来。
Ali gets out of his car.
阿里下了车。
The parking area is in the middle of the compound.
停车场位于大院的中间。
His family was all around-- his uncle, his grandma, his little cousins.
他的家人都在附近——他的叔叔、他的奶奶、他的小表弟。
He started screaming, telling them to run away.
他开始尖叫，让他们逃跑。
He was afraid the masked men were going to hurt them.
他担心蒙面人会伤害他们。
But he had another fear-- the car.
但他还有另一个恐惧——汽车。
They're going to destroy the Duster.
他们要摧毁除尘器。
So after warning everyone, he went back to the car.
于是警告大家之后，他就回到了车上。
But when he got back to the car, he saw the attackers were already there.
但当他回到车上时，他发现袭击者已经在那里了。
One, he said, had an M16-- and the other, a bottle of gasoline.
他说，其中一个有一把 M16，另一个则有一瓶汽油。
He gave up, running the other direction to join his family, and started filming.
他放弃了，跑到另一个方向与家人团聚，开始拍摄。
In the video, the sheep are running.
视频中，羊在奔跑。
Someone is throwing rocks in the direction of the attackers.
有人向袭击者的方向投掷石块。
We see smoke, flames.
我们看到烟雾、火焰。
Things break.
事情破裂了。
Ali realizes his little cousins, Jurie and Jude, ages seven and nine, are still in the house, next to the fire.
阿里意识到他的小表弟朱里和裘德，分别是七岁和九岁，仍然在房子里，靠近火堆。
He yells at them to come out.
他对他们大喊让他们出来。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Yael Even-Or He yells at his family and neighbors to get away from the attackers.
[阿拉伯语] Yael Even-Or 他向家人和邻居大喊，要求他们远离袭击者。
The attackers, apparently done with what they wanted to do, run off.
袭击者显然已经完成了他们想做的事，然后逃跑了。
Just five minutes have passed.
仅仅五分钟过去了。
Ali goes back to the parking area, and we finally see the car in the video.
阿里回到停车场，我们终于在视频中看到了那辆车。
Huge flames fill the interior and pour out of all the windows.
巨大的火焰充满了室内，并从所有窗户中涌出。
Ali and I talked on Zoom two days after that happened.
事情发生两天后，阿里和我在 Zoom 上进行了交谈。
I mean, luckily, I'm still alive, not being burned inside the car.
我的意思是，幸运的是，我还活着，没有在车内被烧伤。
So that's still a huge miracle and something to be thankful about.
所以这仍然是一个巨大的奇迹，值得庆幸。
How are your cousins doing now, after this attack?
这次袭击之后，你的堂兄弟现在怎么样了？
Still very traumatized.
还是很受创伤的。
Yael Even-Or Ali said that the attackers went into the house where the kids were.
雅艾尔·埃文·奥尔·阿里 (Yael Even-Or Ali) 说，袭击者进入了孩子们所在的房子。
They didn't have time to escape.
他们没有时间逃跑。
The attackers hit Jurie with a rock on her back and Jude with a stick on his elbow.
袭击者用石头打朱莉的背，用棍子打朱德的肘部。
Either they are not sharing.
要么他们不共享。
But when I was in their age, I was not saying anything-- anything to anyone, but I remember how much I am scared.
但当我在他们这个年纪时，我没有对任何人说什么，但我记得我有多么害怕。
Like, when I was six, I used to go to school, entering inside Chavat Maon and facing the most brutal attacks on my way to school.
就像我六岁的时候，我经常去学校，进入 Chavat Maon 里面，在上学的路上面临最残酷的攻击。
And I wanted to convince my parents not to go to school because of how much I was scared.
我想说服我的父母不要去学校，因为我很害怕。
So for sure, this is what the children are feeling.
可以肯定的是，这就是孩子们的感受。
Why didn't you say anything when you were a kid?
小时候怎么不说话呢？
I don't know.
我不知道。
What would be the results of sharing?
分享的结果会怎样？
That's what I remember, that even if I share, there is nobody that is actually able to end this reality.
这就是我记得的，即使我分享，也没有人能够真正结束这个现实。
The second photo in Ali's room, it's the image of the car burning.
第二张照片是在阿里的房间里，是汽车着火的照片。
The top part of the car is all fire.
汽车的顶部全部着火。
The bottom is charred.
底部已烧焦。
Smoke billows off to the very blue sky.
炊烟滚滚，升到蔚蓝的天空。
The car was so important to Ali, to Tuba, that I was sure he would already have a plan to replace it.
这辆车对阿里和图巴来说非常重要，我确信他已经有了更换它的计划。
But he was paralyzed.
但他瘫痪了。
The ability of getting another vehicle is not the most difficult part.
获得另一辆车的能力并不是最困难的部分。
The most difficult part is what will be the fate of a new car.
最困难的部分是新车的命运如何。
This is the most devastating part.
这是最具破坏性的部分。
This is the part that-- like, saying to me, don't get another car.
这就是对我说，不要再买一辆车的部分。
Because if they burn this one, they might burn the other one.
因为如果他们烧了这个，他们可能会烧掉另一个。
So if they can do that at 2:00 PM, not at midnight or not at 2:00 AM-- if they can do it at 2:00 PM, then this is a very scary situation.
因此，如果他们可以在下午 2:00 做到这一点，而不是在午夜或不在凌晨 2:00——如果他们可以在下午 2:00 做到这一点，那么这是一个非常可怕的情况。
The police came to Tuba the same day to investigate.
警方当天来到图巴进行调查。
They sent a specialist to try to collect evidence.
他们派了一名专家试图收集证据。
They took some rocks, looked for fingerprints in the car.
他们拿了一些石头，在车里寻找指纹。
But Ali says they didn't find anything.
但阿里说他们没有发现任何东西。
Two teenagers from Chavat Maon were arrested, but they were released less than a week later.
Chavat Maon 的两名青少年被捕，但不到一周后就被释放。
Ali heard the case had been closed.
阿里听说此案已结案。
So many cars had been set on fire in recent years in the West Bank that a big Palestinian insurance company has started to offer settler attack insurance.
近年来，约旦河西岸发生了如此多的汽车被纵火事件，以至于一家巴勒斯坦大型保险公司已开始提供定居者袭击保险。
They put out an ad with a picture of a car burning intensely.
他们发布了一则广告，上面有一辆汽车剧烈燃烧的图片。
After the Zoom call, I didn't hear from Ali for weeks.
Zoom 电话会议后，我好几个星期都没有收到阿里的消息。
He stopped answering my texts.
他不再回复我的短信。
He was silent on social media.
他在社交媒体上保持沉默。
Finally, he resurfaced.
终于，他重新出现了。
"Sorry for my silence," he texted.
“抱歉我保持沉默，”他发短信说。
"I hope you're all right." Turned out, a few days after our call, he had been arrested.
“我希望你一切都好。”结果，我们打电话几天后，他就被捕了。
He was released the same day, never charged, but the police kept his phone.
他当天就被释放，没有受到任何指控，但警方扣押了他的手机。
I reached out to the police about this and about the car attack and never heard back.
我就此事和汽车袭击事件联系了警方，但没有得到回复。
Ali felt like so much had been taken away from him-- his car, his documents, which he kept in his car, his phone.
阿里感觉自己的一切都被夺走了——他的车、他放在车里的文件、他的手机。
Everything was gone in just five days, like, everything.
短短五天之内，一切都消失了，一切。
Everything.
一切。
He got depressed and did something that no one here remembers him doing before.
他变得沮丧，做了一件这里没有人记得他做过的事情。
He took off, left Tuba for about a week and went to stay with a friend.
他出发了，离开图巴大约一周，去朋友那里住了。
His aunt, Aisha, told us that he never leaves.
他的阿姨艾莎告诉我们，他从未离开过。
He's always there, ready to protect them.
他一直在那里，准备好保护他们。
But Ali was the most scared he's ever been.
但阿里是他有史以来最害怕的一次。
He needed a beat to be alone, to recover.
他需要一段时间来独处，恢复体力。
Life in Tuba was always a struggle with the settlers around.
图巴的生活总是与周围的定居者进行斗争。
But Ali says that since October 7, it feels like they're pushing towards a specific goal.
但阿里表示，自 10 月 7 日以来，感觉他们正在朝着一个特定的目标前进。
They are working to kick the Palestinians out of their homes.
他们正在努力将巴勒斯坦人赶出家园。
This is what their message is, like, leave from here.
这就是他们的信息，比如，从这里离开。
The government, the Israeli occupation government, is preventing us from building houses, from building schools, from building any kind of medical or educational units, building roads.
政府，以色列占领政府，正在阻止我们建造房屋、建造学校、建造任何类型的医疗或教育单位、修建道路。
They are preventing us from surviving.
他们正在阻止我们生存。
And we survive with whatever we can.
我们会尽一切努力生存。
The settlers would say, if this is not enough to make you leave this land, we will do it with shooting, with making your life hell.
定居者会说，如果这还不足以让你离开这片土地，我们会用射击来做到这一点，让你的生活变得地狱。
Are you trying to push me out of here?
你想把我赶出这里吗？
I didn't even decide to fucking live here.
我什至没有决定住在这里。
I wouldn't even choose to come to Masafer Yatta.
我什至不会选择来Masafer Yatta。
Between, I don't know, Valdagno or Vicenza or Padova--
我不知道，在瓦尔达尼奥、维琴察还是帕多瓦之间——
These are names of Italian towns.
这些是意大利城镇的名称。
Ali loves Italy, but he's from Tuba.
阿里热爱意大利，但他来自图巴。
His family has lived there for generations.
他的家人世世代代住在那里。
It's my home.
这是我的家。
I was born here.
我出生在这里。
Are you blaming me for something I ended up in?
你是因为我的遭遇而责备我吗？
In June, settlers injured more Palestinians in the West Bank than they have in any other month over the past two decades, according to the UN.
据联合国称，六月，定居者在约旦河西岸受伤的巴勒斯坦人比过去二十年来任何其他月份都要多。
About a month ago, a friend of Ali's was shot and killed by a settler in a neighboring village.
大约一个月前，阿里的一位朋友在邻近村庄被一名定居者枪杀。
Ali's friend was filming a clash between the settler and some Palestinian residents, so it's all on video.
阿里的朋友正在拍摄定居者和一些巴勒斯坦居民之间的冲突，所以这一切都在视频中。
The shooter claimed self-defense.
枪手声称是出于自卫。
He was arrested but was released after a few days.
他被捕，但几天后被释放。
At least 11 Palestinians were also arrested, including Ali, who wasn't even there.
至少 11 名巴勒斯坦人也被捕，其中包括当时并不在场的阿里。
Back when I visited Ali in April, he told me he'd made a decision about the car.
当我四月份拜访阿里时，他告诉我他已经就这辆车做出了决定。
He was going to fix the Duster, which seemed impossible to me.
他要修理除尘器，这对我来说似乎是不可能的。
But then in June, I called him.
但到了六月，我给他打了电话。
I'm good.
我很好。
Now the car is fixed.
现在车修好了。
And it's already back in Tuba, parked here.
它已经回到了图巴，停在这里。
Wow.
哇。
He sent the photo.
他把照片发了过来。
The Dacia Duster was back.
达契亚除尘器又回来了。
Yael Even Or.
雅尔甚至或。
Coming up, an Israeli doctor tries to make sense of a case that does not make sense.
接下来，一名以色列医生试图弄清楚一个毫无意义的病例。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, The Other Territory.
今天的节目是《异域》。
We're looking at what's been happening in the West Bank while the world's attention has been on Gaza.
我们正在关注西岸正在发生的事情，而全世界的注意力都集中在加沙。
And before we turn to Act 2, there are two quick snapshots that I want to share with you of life in the West Bank since October 7.
在我们开始第二幕之前，我想与大家分享 10 月 7 日以来西岸生活的两个简短快照。
Here's the first.
这是第一个。
It's a hall in a municipal park, a place where normally you would have a wedding or some other celebration, where 16 families are living, mats on the floor where they sleep.
这是市政公园的一个大厅，通常是举行婚礼或其他庆祝活动的地方，里面住着 16 个家庭，他们睡觉的地板上铺着垫子。
(SUBJECT) NAWAL MOHAMMED MAHMOUD HAIKAL: [SPEAKING ARABIC]
（主题）纳瓦尔·穆罕默德·马哈茂德·海卡尔：[说阿拉伯语]
This room that you see here, this single room, 40 people sleep in it.
你在这里看到的这个房间，这个单人间，有 40 个人睡在里面。
There are no secrets.
没有秘密。
We change in front of each other.
我们在彼此面前改变。
We sleep facing each other.
我们面对面睡觉。
There are no beds.
没有床位。
That's Nawal Mohammed Mahmoud Haikal, 31, a single mother with two daughters.
那是纳瓦尔·穆罕默德·马哈茂德·海卡尔 (Nawal Mohammed Mahmoud Haikal)，31 岁，是一位有两个女儿的单身母亲。
She spoke with journalist Ahmad Al-Bazz.
她与记者艾哈迈德·阿尔巴兹进行了交谈。
Nawal's here because of something new that the Israeli army started doing in the West Bank in January.
纳瓦尔来这里是因为以色列军队一月份开始在约旦河西岸采取一些新行动。
The country's defense minister announced that month that the military was going to start using the tactics that they've been using in Gaza to level houses and neighborhoods, but now they were going to do that in the West Bank.
该国国防部长当月宣布，军方将开始使用他们在加沙使用的策略来夷平房屋和社区，但现在他们将在约旦河西岸这样做。
And so Operation Iron Wall attacked four Palestinian refugee camps that are basically cities, with tanks and airstrikes and bulldozers tearing up the roads and knocking down buildings, displacing at least 30,000 people, according to the United Nations.
据联合国称，“铁墙行动”袭击了四个巴勒斯坦难民营，这些难民营基本上都是城市，坦克、空袭和推土机摧毁了道路并推倒了建筑物，导致至少 3 万人流离失所。
It's unclear when or if they'll ever be able to move back.
目前还不清楚他们何时或是否能够搬回来。
When Nawal talked to Ahmed, the Israeli military had just published a map indicating what houses they were going to demolish next.
当纳瓦尔与艾哈迈德交谈时，以色列军方刚刚发布了一张地图，标明了他们接下来要拆除的房屋。
(SUBJECT) NAWAL MOHAMMED MAHMOUD HAIKAL: [SPEAKING ARABIC]
（主题）纳瓦尔·穆罕默德·马哈茂德·海卡尔：[说阿拉伯语]
Yeah, I saw it.
是的，我看到了。
That's my parents' home.
那是我父母的家。
They're threatening my parents' home with demolition.
他们威胁要拆除我父母的家。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] (SUBJECT) NAWAL MOHAMMED MAHMOUD HAIKAL: [SPEAKING ARABIC]
[讲阿拉伯语]（主题）NAWAL MOHAMMED MAHMOUD HAIKAL：[讲阿拉伯语]
Yes, they have a circle around it.
是的，他们周围有一圈。
On my parents' home, they have two dots on it.
在我父母的家里，上面有两个点。
They're threatening demolition.
他们威胁要拆除。
I live in my parents' home in a room.
我住在父母家的一个房间里。
For us, the camp is our entire life.
对于我们来说，营地就是我们生活的全部。
OK, here's a second snapshot.
好的，这是第二张快照。
This one, a bright, shiny car dealership, chock-a-block with shiny new cars.
这是一家明亮、闪亮的汽车经销店，里面摆满了闪亮的新车。
So I'm looking around the showroom, two-floor showroom, and I don't see any customers.
所以我环视了陈列室，两层楼的陈列室，我没有看到任何顾客。
We have one, only.
我们只有一个。
Ira Glass Wait, who's the customer?
Ira Glass 等等，顾客是谁？
Downstairs, that man, Abuslemann, Abuslemann.
楼下那个人，阿布斯勒曼，阿布斯勒曼。
He's the customer, yes.
他是顾客，是的。
Abdalla AlNatsha is the showroom manager for Al Salaam Motors in the city of Hebron.
Abdalla AlNatsha 是希伯伦市 Al Salaam Motors 的陈列室经理。
This is a family business with a car lot, car repair, gas station, and-- curveball here-- French fry factory.
这是一家家族企业，拥有汽车停车场、汽车修理厂、加油站，以及——这里是曲线球——炸薯条工厂。
And this is something I didn't really understand before I visited the West Bank-- is just what a disaster its economy is right now, for a bunch of reasons.
这是我在访问约旦河西岸之前并没有真正理解的事情——由于多种原因，它的经济现在是一场灾难。
But one of the big ones is that roughly 120,000 Palestinians used to commute from the West Bank into Israel.
但其中最大的问题之一是，大约有 12 万巴勒斯坦人过去常常从约旦河西岸前往以色列。
And after October 7, the Israeli government forbade most of them from doing that, saying it was for security reasons, even though Israel's own security services, Shin Bet, said the risks could be managed.
10 月 7 日之后，以色列政府禁止大多数人这样做，称这是出于安全原因，尽管以色列自己的安全部门辛贝特表示风险是可以控制的。
Shin Bet, in fact, said it would be riskier to leave so many people unemployed and discontent.
事实上，辛贝特表示，让如此多的人失业和不满会带来更大的风险。
But those tens of thousands of commuters were not just a backbone of the Palestinian economy.
但数以万计的通勤者不仅仅是巴勒斯坦经济的支柱。
They were Abdalla's customers.
他们是阿卜杜拉的顾客。
They buy cars, new cars, or they buy lands, or they buy many things.
他们购买汽车、新车，或者购买土地，或者购买很多东西。
And since the 7th of October, they all unemployed.
从10月7日起，他们都失业了。
People can't make their car payments, and the dealership's been repossessing vehicles.
人们无法支付汽车费用，经销商也一直在收回车辆。
They've gone from selling 560 cars a year to 175.
他们的年销量从 560 辆增加到 175 辆。
They've let a third of their employees go in all their businesses.
他们已经让三分之一的员工离开了所有业务。
This bit also surprised me.
这一点也让我感到惊讶。
Post-October 7, they say Israeli companies decided to stop selling them potatoes for the French fry factory.
他们说，10 月 7 日之后，以色列公司决定停止向他们的炸薯条工厂出售土豆。
Abdalla also says that the local Palestinian government in the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority, owes them $6 million for construction and agricultural equipment that it bought.
阿卜杜拉还表示，约旦河西岸当地巴勒斯坦政府（即巴勒斯坦权力机构）欠他们 600 万美元，用于购买建筑和农业设备。
They send each month around $20,000 each month.
他们每月寄出大约 20,000 美元。
Yes.
是的。
Well, that just barely covers the interest.
嗯，这只是勉强覆盖了利息。
Doesn't cover the interest.
不包括利息。
Ira Glass Why can't they pay?
艾拉·格拉斯：为什么他们不能付款？
They can't pay because they don't have money.
他们无法付款，因为他们没有钱。
The Palestinian Authority doesn't have money in part because the Israeli government has withheld hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenues from it.
巴勒斯坦权力机构没有钱，部分原因是以色列政府从中扣留了数亿美元的税收。
A World Bank report in June described its finances as a fiscal crisis.
世界银行六月份的一份报告将其财务状况描述为一场财政危机。
But because they are the only local buyers for this kind of gear, Abdalla continues to sell to them.
但由于他们是此类装备的唯一当地买家，阿卜杜拉继续向他们出售。
And how much do they put down?
他们投入了多少？
How much do they pay when they buy, 30%?
他们买的时候付了多少钱，30%？
No, nothing, zero, zero.
不，什么都没有，零，零。
Ira Glass How do I get that deal?
Ira Glass 我如何获得这笔交易？
[LAUGHS] You have to be Palestinian Authority or one of them.
[笑]你必须是巴勒斯坦权力机构或其中之一。
Yes.
是的。
This is the kind of family business where, once a week, they play volleyball together.
这是一种家族企业，他们每周一次一起打排球。
It's brothers, and cousins, and Abdalla's uncle managing this business.
经营这家生意的是兄弟、表兄弟和阿卜杜拉的叔叔。
And when I asked Abdalla's cousin, Wajdi, how this has affected him personally, how hard it's been, keeping the business going, he said that for the first time in his life, he's thought about moving away for a little bit.
当我问阿卜杜拉的表弟瓦吉迪（Wajdi），这对他个人有何影响，维持生意有多么困难时，他说，这是他一生中第一次考虑搬走一段时间。
--until this war finished, to go abroad.
——等这场战争结束，出国。
Have you told your brother you've had these thoughts?
你有没有告诉你的兄弟你有这些想法？
Think about your business here and my family as well.
想想你在这里的生意和我的家人。
Every person I talk to in the West Bank seems stressed out about money.
我在约旦河西岸交谈过的每个人似乎都对金钱感到压力。
People with jobs are supporting people who lost jobs.
有工作的人正在支持失业的人。
Meanwhile, prices for food and gas are rising.
与此同时，食品和天然气的价格正在上涨。
The only business I ran across that seemed to be doing OK is this guy, Bilal.
我遇到的唯一一家看起来还不错的公司就是这个家伙，Bilal。
He sells this incredible corn that is covered in brightly-colored powders and sauces, including this TikTok-ready fluorescent teal sauce, from a stand on the street.
他在街上的一个摊位上出售这种令人难以置信的玉米，玉米上覆盖着色彩鲜艳的粉末和酱汁，包括这款适合 TikTok 的荧光青色酱汁。
He's saying that ever since October 7, people are just sitting around without work, not doing anything.
他说，从 10 月 7 日起，人们就无所事事地坐着，没有工作。
And they wander around the streets.
他们在街上闲逛。
And corn?
还有玉米？
They can afford.
他们买得起。
His business has improved.
他的生意有了起色。
Act Two, What Happened to Walid.
第二幕，瓦利德发生了什么。
Since October 7, there have been a ton of arrests in the West Bank, doubling the number of Palestinians in Israeli prisons.
自 10 月 7 日以来，约旦河西岸发生了大量逮捕事件，以色列监狱中的巴勒斯坦人数量增加了一倍。
Now it's over 10,000 people, according to the Israeli government.
据以色列政府称，现在人数已超过 10,000 人。
They're held as security prisoners, not on normal criminal charges.
他们是作为安全囚犯关押的，而不是受到一般刑事指控。
Most are from the West Bank.
大多数来自西岸。
Over 3,600 are in something called administrative detention, where they're not charged with anything and there's no trial.
超过 3,600 人被行政拘留，他们没有受到任何指控，也没有受到审判。
They're just held based on classified evidence they don't see and can't contest.
他们只是根据他们看不到也无法质疑的机密证据而被关押。
Israeli prisons were notoriously overcrowded even before October 7.
甚至在 10 月 7 日之前，以色列监狱就已经人满为患。
But in general, not many Palestinians died in Israeli prisons.
但总的来说，死在以色列监狱中的巴勒斯坦人并不多。
In the year before October 7, it was two Palestinians, according to Physicians for Human Rights Israel.
据以色列人权医生组织称，在 10 月 7 日之前的一年，是两名巴勒斯坦人。
Since October 7, they count at least 93 Palestinians who died in Israeli custody.
自 10 月 7 日以来，他们统计至少有 93 名巴勒斯坦人在以色列拘留期间死亡。
Naji Abbas works for Physicians for Human Rights and says after October 7--
纳吉·阿巴斯 (Naji Abbas) 为人权医生组织工作，并表示 10 月 7 日之后——
It started to be weird.
事情开始变得奇怪了。
Because every week, every two weeks, you are getting a call saying there is a new death.
因为每周、每两周，你都会接到电话说有新的死亡病例。
So what is happening in these prisons?
那么这些监狱里到底发生了什么？
Well, in the wake of the Hamas attack on Israel, Israel's Minister of National Security, a far-right politician named Itamar Ben-Gvir, enacted some changes to the prison system.
哈马斯袭击以色列后，以色列国家安全部长、一位名叫伊塔马尔·本·格维尔的极右翼政治家对监狱系统进行了一些改革。
Ben-Gvir is a longtime provocateur and ultranationalist, somebody who's been convicted of supporting a Jewish terrorist organization and incitement to racism.
本-格维尔是一名长期煽动者和极端民族主义者，因支持犹太恐怖组织和煽动种族主义而被定罪。
After the Hamas attacks, Ben-Gvir drastically limited security prisoners' contact with the outside world.
哈马斯袭击后，本格维尔大幅限制安全囚犯与外界的接触。
It didn't matter whether they were accused of any connection to the Hamas attacks or Hamas itself.
他们是否被指控与哈马斯袭击或哈马斯本身有任何联系并不重要。
Families can't visit it anymore.
家人不能再去参观了。
They can't call.
他们不能打电话。
The Red Cross, which had monitored conditions inside Israeli prisons since 1967, is now barred.
红十字会自 1967 年以来一直监测以色列监狱内的条件，但现在已被禁止。
In public statements, Ben-Gvir refers to all Palestinian security prisoners as terrorists.
在公开声明中，本-格维尔将所有巴勒斯坦安全囚犯称为恐怖分子。
The physical conditions inside prisons have gotten a lot worse too.
监狱内的物质条件也变得更加恶劣。
Scabies infestations are rampant and have been for over a year.
疥疮感染猖獗，已经持续一年多了。
I didn't know this-- scabies is a contagious skin disease caused by mites.
我不知道这一点——疥疮是一种由螨虫引起的传染性皮肤病。
Prisoners tell their lawyers that a dozen people are sometimes crammed into a cell meant for five or six.
囚犯告诉他们的律师，有时五六个人的牢房里塞满了十几个人。
And Ben-Gvir reduced prisoners' food rations to the minimum allowable by Israeli law, closed the canteens where prisoners could buy their own food.
本-格维尔将囚犯的口粮减少到以色列法律允许的最低限度，并关闭了囚犯可以自己购买食物的食堂。
Ben-Gvir didn't try to hide any of this.
本-格维尔并没有试图隐瞒这一切。
Last July, he posted on X, quote, "Since I assumed the position of minister of national security, one of the highest goals I have set for myself is to worsen the conditions of the terrorists in the prisons and to reduce their rights to the minimum required by law." He told the Associated Press that the purpose of these changes was to deter terrorism.
去年7月，他在X上发帖称，“自从我担任国家安全部长以来，我为自己设定的最高目标之一就是恶化监狱中恐怖分子的条件，并将他们的权利减少到法律要求的最低限度。”他告诉美联社，这些改变的目的是为了遏制恐怖主义。
Again, here's Naji Abbas of Physicians for Human Rights.
再次请听人权医师组织的纳吉·阿巴斯 (Naji Abbas) 的发言。
By the Israeli law, the punishment for an offense or a crime or when you are charged with something, the punishment is limiting your freedom, taking your freedom of movement.
根据以色列法律，对犯罪或犯罪或被指控某事的惩罚是限制您的自由，剥夺您的行动自由。
That's the punishment.
这就是惩罚。
But Ben-Gvir, he was very clear from the day one in the office that he think that the conditions of the detention, not the detention itself, the conditions of the detention should be part of the punishment.
但是本-格维尔，从上任的第一天起他就非常明确地表示，他认为拘留条件，而不是拘留本身，拘留条件应该成为惩罚的一部分。
Palestinian prisoners began dying, many of them not very old, in their 40s, 30s, 20s.
巴勒斯坦囚犯开始死亡，其中许多人年纪不大，只有 40 多岁、30 多岁、20 多岁。
We don't know what happened to most of them.
我们不知道他们中的大多数人发生了什么。
There have been a few autopsies that Physicians for Human Rights knows about, but even the families of the prisoners who get autopsies almost never get an autopsy report.
人权医生组织知道一些尸检，但即使是接受尸检的囚犯家属也几乎从未得到尸检报告。
Here's what they get instead.
这是他们得到的结果。
They're allowed to send a doctor to observe the post-mortem examination on their behalf.
他们可以派一名医生代为观察尸检。
This doctor doesn't actually participate in the autopsy.
这位医生实际上并不参与尸检。
They just watch the procedure, then afterwards, write up an account, just a page or two, about what they saw.
他们只是观看整个过程，然后写下关于他们所看到的内容的记录，只需一两页。
And since October 7, their observations, these written reports, have become one of the only windows into what is happening to security prisoners inside Israeli prisons today.
自 10 月 7 日以来，他们的观察结果，即这些书面报告，已成为了解当今以色列监狱内安全囚犯所发生情况的唯一窗口之一。
Dana Chivvis has the story of one of those accounts.
达纳·奇夫维斯 (Dana Chivvis) 讲述了其中一个故事。
The place where these autopsies are performed is called Abu Kabir.
进行尸检的地方称为 Abu Kabir。
It's in Tel Aviv.
这是在特拉维夫。
It's the Israeli government's forensic medicine institute.
这是以色列政府的法医学研究所。
Since October 7, courts have dictated that only Israeli doctors can attend autopsies on behalf of the families.
自10月7日起，法院规定只有以色列医生才能代表家属参加尸检。
So Physicians for Human Rights went in search of Israeli doctors who'd be willing to go on behalf of Palestinian families.
因此，医生人权组织开始寻找愿意代表巴勒斯坦家庭的以色列医生。
One of the people they called was Dr. Daniel Solomon, an Israeli physician born in Italy.
他们打电话给的人之一是丹尼尔·所罗门医生，他是一位出生于意大利的以色列医生。
He's on the board of Physicians for Human Rights, volunteers with their mobile medical clinic in the West Bank, a do-gooder kind of guy.
他是人权医生组织的董事会成员，是约旦河西岸流动医疗诊所的志愿者，是一位行善者。
Daniel had never been to an autopsy before.
丹尼尔以前从未接受过尸检。
He's a surgeon, not a forensic pathologist-- those are the doctors specially trained to do autopsies.
他是一名外科医生，而不是一名法医病理学家——那些是经过专门培训进行尸检的医生。
But Daniel said, sure, he'd go.
但丹尼尔说，当然，他会去。
He didn't have much time to prepare.
他没有太多时间准备。
I looked a bit online on how an autopsy's performed and how maybe a report can look like.
我在网上查了一下尸检是如何进行的以及报告可能是什么样子的。
And that was it.
就是这样。
Daniel had also never been inside Abu Kabir, the forensic Institute, though he'd jogged by it a bunch.
丹尼尔也从未进过阿布卡比尔法医研究所，尽管他慢跑过很多次。
The first time Daniel went, it was only three weeks after the Hamas attacks on October 7.
丹尼尔第一次去时，距10月7日哈马斯袭击事件仅三周。
The staff at Abu Kabir was still processing the remains of Israelis who had been killed.
阿布卡比尔的工作人员仍在处理被杀的以色列人的遗体。
In a different room down the hall, Daniel observed the autopsies of two Palestinian prisoners that day.
那天，在大厅另一间房间里，丹尼尔观察了两名巴勒斯坦囚犯的尸检。
Over the course of the next year, he went to five of these autopsies, all Palestinian men from the West Bank who had died in Israeli prisons.
在接下来的一年里，他参加了五次尸检，他们都是死在以色列监狱中的来自约旦河西岸的巴勒斯坦男子。
After each one, Daniel wrote up his observations.
每写完一篇之后，丹尼尔都会写下他的观察结果。
One had, quote, "multiple signs of physical assault and injury." Another had "a relatively recent head trauma." Daniel saw conditions he assessed as treatable.
其中一名男子有“多种人身攻击和受伤的迹象”。另一个人“最近遭受过头部外伤”。丹尼尔认为他评估的情况是可以治疗的。
One man's lungs were in the worst shape Daniel had ever seen.
其中一名男子的肺部状况是丹尼尔见过的最糟糕的。
One of the lungs was surrounded by pus and completely collapsed.
其中一侧肺部已被脓液包围，完全塌陷。
He was 23.
那年他23岁。
Daniel's view was that, based on the condition of the lungs, the man would have been coughing violently and noticeably for at least a week.
丹尼尔认为，根据肺部的状况，该男子至少已经剧烈且明显地咳嗽了一周。
Daniel's used to seeing bodies inside and out.
丹尼尔已经习惯了从里到外观察尸体。
He's a surgeon.
他是一名外科医生。
Standing there, observing during the autopsies, taking notes, he kept a practiced emotional distance from the body, same as he does when he's in surgery.
站在那儿，在尸检过程中观察、做笔记，他与尸体保持着熟练的情感距离，就像他在手术时一样。
And then this March, there was Walid Ahmad, 17 years old.
今年 3 月，17 岁的瓦利德·艾哈迈德 (Walid Ahmad) 也出现了。
Daniel had read about Walid's death in the news.
丹尼尔在新闻中读到了瓦利德去世的消息。
It made international headlines, the first Palestinian teenager to die inside an Israeli prison since Israel took over the West Bank in 1967, according to Physicians for Human Rights.
据人权医生组织称，这起事件成为国际头条新闻，这是自 1967 年以色列占领约旦河西岸以来首例死在以色列监狱内的巴勒斯坦青少年。
Walid was from the West Bank, a town called Silwad.
瓦利德来自西岸一个叫锡尔瓦德的小镇。
Palestinian officials told reporters he had fallen and hit his head, citing other prisoners' accounts.
巴勒斯坦官员援引其他囚犯的说法告诉记者，他摔倒并撞到了头部。
When Daniel got to Abu Kabir for Walid's autopsy, the staff there did something they'd never done on any of his previous visits.
当丹尼尔到达阿布卡比尔对瓦利德进行尸检时，那里的工作人员做了一些他们在他之前来访时从未做过的事情。
They warned him about what he was about to see.
他们警告他即将看到的情况。
They were telling me-- they were commenting before he came in to kind of like, get ready.
他们告诉我——他们在他进来之前评论说，准备好。
He doesn't look good.
他看起来不太好。
The moment they placed his body on the autopsy table, I understood that I was dealing with something that I was not actually prepared to witness.
当他们把他的尸体放在尸检台上的那一刻，我明白我正在处理一些我实际上并没有准备好目睹的事情。
The way he looked, it's hard to describe.
他的样子，很难形容。
It was difficult for me to even call it malnutrition.
对我来说，甚至很难称之为营养不良。
This is how starvation looks like.
这就是饥饿的样子。
I think the only thing that comes close to that, in my opinion, is really those pictures of the Holocaust.
在我看来，唯一接近这一点的就是那些大屠杀的照片。
That's how bad it was.
事情就是这样糟糕。
And I deal with cancer patients.
我与癌症患者打交道。
I've seen anorexia.
我见过厌食症。
I've seen people get as thin as it gets.
我见过人们变得越来越瘦。
I honestly have never seen someone looking like he did.
老实说，我从来没有见过像他这样的人。
This interview was several months ago, before photos of starvation in Gaza were widespread.
这次采访是几个月前的事，当时加沙饥饿的照片还没有广泛传播。
In the news stories about Walid, there was a photo of him from right before he was arrested.
在有关瓦利德的新闻报道中，有一张他被捕前的照片。
Walid looks like a strapping teenage boy, dirty blond hair, the beginnings of a beard.
瓦利德看上去就像一个身材魁梧的十几岁男孩，金发脏兮兮，还开始蓄起胡须。
He's fit, a soccer star, hoping to join the Palestinian national team, nothing at all like the body Daniel was seeing on the metal table in front of him.
他身体健康，是一名足球明星，希望加入巴勒斯坦国家队，与丹尼尔在他面前的金属桌子上看到的身体完全不同。
It's just like two absolutely different persons.
就像两个完全不同的人一样。
It was really beyond recognition.
实在是面目全非。
Again, Daniel's account is not an official autopsy report.
再次强调，丹尼尔的叙述不是官方尸检报告。
He doesn't have access to additional information, for instance, tests done on Walid's body after the autopsy.
他无法获得更多信息，例如尸检后对瓦利德尸体进行的测试。
He doesn't know for sure how Walid got to look the way he did at the end.
他不确定瓦利德最后是怎么变成现在这个样子的。
But his assessment is that however it happened--
但他的评估是，无论如何发生——
Starvation, at the end of the day, killed him because it exposed him so much to other diseases that might have been treatable and that, in his case, just become fatal.
最终，饥饿杀死了他，因为饥饿使他暴露在其他疾病的危险之下，而这些疾病本来是可以治疗的，但对他来说却是致命的。
Daniel addressed his account of the autopsy, quote, "to the family of Walid Ahmad." Walid was a case where, in Daniel's view, everything he was seeing could have been treated-- his significant weight loss, also scabies.
丹尼尔向“瓦利德·艾哈迈德的家人”讲述了他对尸检的描述。在丹尼尔看来，瓦利德的情况是他所看到的一切都可以得到治疗的——他的体重明显减轻，还有疥疮。
Daniel's account also said Walid had an inflammation of the colon.
丹尼尔的账户还称瓦利德患有结肠炎症。
He did not see any evidence of a head injury, external or internal.
他没有看到任何头部外伤或内伤的证据。
Walid's body had been sent to Abu Kabir with notes from the prison medical clinic.
瓦利德的尸体连同监狱诊所的记录一起被送往阿布卡比尔。
Daniel read them and wrote in his account that in December, Walid had gone to the prison medical clinic and, quote, "mentioned that he did not have access to sufficient amounts of food." Daniel said that according to the prison notes, Walid had said other prisoners were taking his food.
丹尼尔读了这些内容，并在他的叙述中写道，去年 12 月，瓦利德去了监狱诊所，并“提到他没有获得足够的食物”。丹尼尔说，根据监狱记录，瓦利德说其他囚犯正在拿走他的食物。
The month before Walid died, he went to the clinic two more times.
瓦利德去世前一个月，他又去了诊所两次。
Israeli law says that, quote, "A prisoner shall be entitled to the medical care necessary to maintain his health and to appropriate monitoring conditions as stipulated by an IPS physician." IPS is Israel Prison Service.
以色列法律规定，“囚犯应有权获得维持健康所需的医疗护理，并有权享受 IPS 医生规定的适当监测条件。” IPS 是以色列监狱管理局。
The relevant thing is that he was someone who was under the responsibility of the Israeli Prison Service.
相关的是，他是以色列监狱管理局负责的人。
He was under a system that failed him so badly.
他所处的体制让他非常失望。
The Israel Prison Service told me it doesn't comment on individual cases.
以色列监狱管理局告诉我，他们不会对个别案件发表评论。
But they sent a statement saying in part, quote, "All inmates are held according to legal procedures.
但他们发表了一份声明，部分引用称，“所有囚犯均按照法律程序被关押。
And their basic rights, including access to medical care, are upheld by professionally trained staff, subject to internal and external review."
他们的基本权利，包括获得医疗保健的机会，由经过专业培训的工作人员维护，并接受内部和外部审查。”
It took Daniel a couple of days to write his account.
丹尼尔花了几天时间才写下他的叙述。
Just because I wanted it to be accurate.
只是因为我希望它是准确的。
And sometimes, it's really not that easy to find the wording, like somewhere in between something that a physician can understand but something that also the family can understand.
有时，找到合适的措辞确实不是那么容易，比如介于医生可以理解的内容和家人也可以理解的内容之间。
Daniel's account with his observations went to Walid's father, Khaled.
丹尼尔的叙述和他的观察被交给了瓦利德的父亲哈立德。
Until he got it, he didn't know anything about how his son died or why.
在他得到消息之前，他对儿子是怎么死的、为什么死的一无所知。
He says he just got a call one night close to midnight, telling him Walid was dead.
他说，一天晚上接近午夜时，他刚刚接到电话，告诉他瓦利德已经死了。
Khaled is the only one in the family who read all of Daniel's report.
哈立德是家里唯一读过丹尼尔全部报告的人。
He said Walid's mother, siblings, and aunts couldn't bear to finish it.
他说瓦利德的母亲、兄弟姐妹和阿姨们无法忍受完成它。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Interpreter Before receiving the report, knowing that Walid was in good health, my first thought it was a result of torture or beating.
[阿拉伯语] 翻译 在收到报告之前，我知道瓦利德身体状况良好，我的第一反应是他是遭受酷刑或殴打的结果。
I sought help from a doctor here in town.
我向城里的一位医生寻求帮助。
And he explained to me the entire report, like for medical terms.
他向我解释了整个报告，就像医学术语一样。
He explained all the details and all the different small parts in it.
他解释了其中的所有细节和所有不同的小部分。
It just made it more shocking.
这只会让事情变得更加令人震惊。
Shocking.
令人震惊。
My son, Walid, was an athletic young man.
我的儿子瓦利德是一位运动健将。
I don't know what they did to him in prison.
我不知道他们在监狱里对他做了什么。
Walid, Khaled said, had cared how he looked, showered twice a day.
哈立德说，瓦利德很关心自己的外表，每天洗两次澡。
In photos, he's always dressed nicely, usually in name brands-- Hilfiger, Polo.
在照片中，他总是穿着得体，通常是名牌——Hilfiger、Polo。
Walid liked things that were-- for clothes, he liked the nicest things.
瓦利德喜欢的东西——对于衣服来说，他喜欢最好的东西。
He wanted the nicest, best things.
他想要最好、最好的东西。
He did not used to ask, of course.
当然，他以前不问。
But I knew what he liked.
但我知道他喜欢什么。
When we would go out to buy clothes, I knew his taste.
当我们出去买衣服时，我知道他的品味。
He liked everything to be neat.
他喜欢一切都整洁。
Walid was planning to go to university next year to study finance and banking, Khaled told me.
哈立德告诉我，瓦利德计划明年上大学学习金融和银行业。
Some nights after school, and over the summer break, he worked at Khaled's shop.
放学后的一些晚上以及暑假期间，他在哈立德的店里工作。
Khaled's mother was Brazilian.
哈立德的母亲是巴西人。
He imports nuts and coffee from Brazil and elsewhere.
他从巴西和其他地方进口坚果和咖啡。
Walid was a senior in high school.
瓦利德是一名高中生。
From what I can see, his social media is filled with photos of him and his friends, often preening, often in front of cars, mixed in with memorial posts for young men who have died and support for others who are in prison.
据我所知，他的社交媒体上充斥着他和他的朋友们的照片，他们经常在汽车前打扮自己，还夹杂着悼念死去的年轻人和支持其他狱友的帖子。
In a couple photos, people are holding guns.
在几张照片中，人们拿着枪。
From the outside, it's hard to tell what any of that adds up to.
从外部来看，很难判断这些加起来意味着什么。
But I showed all this to a Palestinian journalist, who said he's seen hundreds of accounts like this.
但我向一位巴勒斯坦记者展示了这一切，他说他见过数百个这样的账户。
Walid had never been arrested before, his lawyers say.
瓦利德的律师称，他以前从未被捕过。
The military came in the middle of the night last September 2024.
2024年9月的半夜，军队来了。
Middle of the night raids are the standard way the military arrests Palestinians in the West Bank, including minors.
半夜突袭是军方逮捕西岸巴勒斯坦人（包括未成年人）的标准方式。
That was true even before October 7.
即使在 10 月 7 日之前也是如此。
But there have been so many more arrests since then.
但自那以后又有更多人被捕。
Khaled says everyone was asleep when they came-- him and his wife, all four kids.
哈立德说，他们来时每个人都在睡觉——他和他的妻子，还有四个孩子。
At 17, Walid was the oldest.
瓦利德 17 岁，是年龄最大的。
Khaled estimates there were 25 soldiers.
哈立德估计有 25 名士兵。
He says some of them broke two doors, came into the house, and smashed the windows of the front room, flipped over couches, tore curtains.
他说，其中一些人打破了两扇门，进入房子，砸碎了前室的窗户，掀翻了沙发，撕裂了窗帘。
As soon as they entered, they started saying to me, you're Hamas.
他们一进来就开始对我说，你是哈马斯。
You're Hezbollah.
你是真主党。
I told them, I am neither Hamas nor Hezbollah.
我告诉他们，我既不是哈马斯，也不是真主党。
They went into the kids' room and terrified them.
他们走进孩子们的房间并吓坏了他们。
I told the soldiers, wait, wait.
我告诉士兵们，等等，等等。
Let me-- so then I went and gathered all the children and put them here in this spot.
让我——然后我去把所有的孩子都聚集起来，把他们放在这个地方。
Khaled says Walid had on only his underwear and a tank top when they took him away.
哈立德说，瓦利德被带走时只穿着内衣和背心。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Interpreter When they were arresting Walid, I said to the officer, let us just put pants on him.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 当他们逮捕瓦利德时，我对警官说，让我们给他穿上裤子。
Because that night, it was a bit cold.
因为那天晚上，天气有点冷。
I said, let us put pants and a jacket on him.
我说，我们给他穿上裤子和夹克吧。
But the officer refused.
但该官员拒绝了。
When I asked the Israeli military about Khaled's account of the arrest, they told me that no one filed a report complaining about how it was handled.
当我向以色列军方询问哈立德对逮捕的描述时，他们告诉我，没有人提交报告抱怨其处理方式。
Two weeks after Walid was arrested, five months before his death, he was charged with producing an explosive or incendiary device, which is identified as a Molotov cocktail, throwing an explosive device, and arson.
瓦利德被捕两周后，即他去世前五个月，他被指控生产爆炸物或燃烧装置（被确定为燃烧瓶）、投掷爆炸装置和纵火。
The charging document is remarkably vague.
收费文件非常含糊。
There are no specific locations saying where the crimes allegedly happened or specific times.
没有具体地点说明据称犯罪发生的地点或具体时间。
One incident supposedly took place, quote, "sometime during the year 2022."
据称，“2022 年的某个时候”发生了一起事件。
One of Walid's lawyers pointed out that there's no complainant listed on the charging document, nobody who went to the authorities and said, this kid threw a Molotov cocktail at my house and caused damage to me.
瓦利德的一名律师指出，指控文件上没有列出任何申诉人，也没有人向当局说，这个孩子向我家扔了燃烧弹，对我造成了伤害。
If there were, he said, there would have been more specificity to the charges.
他说，如果有的话，指控就会更加具体。
The evidence against him seemed to be allegations from two other prisoners.
对他不利的证据似乎是来自另外两名囚犯的指控。
Walid was being tried under Israeli military law, where the standards of evidence are lower than in civilian court.
瓦利德是根据以色列军事法接受审判的，其证据标准低于民事法庭。
All Palestinians in the West Bank are subject to military law.
西岸的所有巴勒斯坦人都受到军事法的管辖。
That's been true for almost 60 years.
近 60 年来一直如此。
In response to my questions about Walid's case, the Israeli military sent a statement that said, in part, that Walid was, quote, "imprisoned based on well-founded evidence of his offenses, including testimonies from other operatives against him." It's not clear if Walid did any of the things he was charged with.
在回答我关于瓦利德案件的问题时，以色列军方发表了一份声明，其中部分内容称，瓦利德是“根据他的罪行的充分证据，包括其他针对他的特工的证词而被监禁的”。目前尚不清楚瓦利德是否做过他被指控的任何事情。
His lawyer said he denied it, and Walid died before he could give his defense or take a plea.
他的律师表示，他否认了这一点，瓦利德在他进行辩护或认罪之前就去世了。
Khaled spent six months trying to find out what was happening to his son in prison.
哈立德花了六个月的时间试图查明他儿子在监狱里发生了什么。
He learned pretty quickly that Walid was in Megiddo prison, hours away, outside the West Bank in Israel.
他很快了解到瓦利德在以色列西岸郊外的米吉多监狱，距离酒店有几个小时的路程。
No one in the family was allowed to communicate with him.
家里任何人都不准与他有任何交流。
They couldn't visit him.
他们无法探望他。
Throughout last fall and winter, Khaled went to Walid's court hearings in a military courtroom in the West Bank.
去年秋天和冬天，哈立德在约旦河西岸的军事法庭参加了瓦利德的法庭听证会。
The prosecutors and judges were all in the Israeli military.
检察官和法官都在以色列军队中。
Walid appeared remotely over a video connection from prison.
瓦利德通过监狱中的视频连接远程出现。
Khaled saw Walid for the last time like this, on a TV screen during a court hearing in February.
哈立德最后一次这样见到瓦利德是在二月份的法庭听证会上，在电视屏幕上。
Could you tell how he looked physically?
你能看出他的身体状况吗？
I saw his face.
我看到了他的脸。
Of course, we could only see him from here and up.
当然，我们只能从这里及上面看到他。
His face was thinner.
他的脸瘦了。
But the day I saw him, he smiled to my face, and I smiled back.
但我见到他的那天，他对着我微笑，我也微笑着。
Khaled says he saw him for only about 20 seconds.
哈立德说他只看到了他大约 20 秒。
Walid died six weeks later on March 22.
六周后，瓦利德于 3 月 22 日去世。
The family was informed two days after.
两天后，家人接到通知。
What Physicians for Human Rights and others were learning around the time Walid died sheds light on how Walid might have become so frail in the weeks between when his father last saw him on screen and his death.
人权医生组织和其他人在瓦利德去世时了解到的情况揭示了瓦利德在他父亲最后一次在银幕上看到他到他去世之间的几周内是如何变得如此虚弱的。
They learned that some sort of gastrointestinal illness was going around the prison.
他们得知监狱里正在流行某种胃肠道疾病。
Lawyers for Palestinians in Israeli Prisons reported seeing their clients deteriorate from one visit to the next, getting very thin.
以色列监狱中巴勒斯坦人的律师报告称，他们的当事人从一次到下一次探访期间病情恶化，变得非常瘦弱。
Prisoners, including minors, told their lawyers they were vomiting, had diarrhea, were sometimes fainting, and were rapidly losing weight.
包括未成年人在内的囚犯告诉律师，他们出现呕吐、腹泻、有时晕厥、体重迅速下降等症状。
Khaled, Walid's father, had heard about it from a friend of Walid's, who'd been in the same prison and was released.
瓦利德的父亲哈立德从瓦利德的一位朋友那里听说了这件事，他曾被关在同一所监狱，后来被释放了。
We heard about it from another teenager, who was also held at Megiddo prison at the same time as Walid and knew Walid.
我们从另一名青少年那里听说了这件事，他与瓦利德同时被关押在米吉多监狱，并且认识瓦利德。
He's 16 years old, and he first spoke to reporter Hagar Shezaf at the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz.
他今年 16 岁，第一次接受以色列《国土报》记者 Hagar Shezaf 的采访。
In the Haaretz story, he's called Ibrahim.
在国土报的故事中，他被称为易卜拉欣。
It's not his real name.
这不是他的真名。
I'm going to use that name for him too.
我也会用这个名字来称呼他。
Ibrahim's experience in prison mirrored Walid's in several important ways.
易卜拉欣在监狱中的经历在几个重要方面与瓦利德的经历相似。
And he was an eyewitness to Walid's last days.
他是瓦利德最后日子的目击者。
He talked to my producer in the West Bank.
他与我在约旦河西岸的制片人进行了交谈。
Ibrahim and Walid were arrested around the same time.
易卜拉欣和瓦利德大约在同一时间被捕。
He said Walid joked around a lot.
他说瓦利德经常开玩笑。
He was a talker.
他是一个健谈的人。
Yes, I talked to him a lot.
是的，我和他聊了很多。
Almost every day, I talked to him.
我几乎每天都和他说话。
When he used to live with me in the same cell, I used to talk to him.
当他和我住在同一个牢房时，我经常和他说话。
We used to talk about food because we were starving.
我们过去常常谈论食物，因为我们饿了。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Interpreter And he would say to me, when we get out, God willing, that we will go to my father's store.
[阿拉伯语] 翻译 他会对我说，当我们出去时，如果上帝愿意的话，我们会去我父亲的商店。
We will eat cashews and nuts.
我们会吃腰果和坚果。
Ibrahim said they never got enough food.
易卜拉欣说他们从来没有得到足够的食物。
He said everyone was hungry and everyone stole food from each other.
他说每个人都饿了，每个人都互相偷食物。
After the first two months, they weren't in the same cell anymore.
两个月后，他们就不再在同一个牢房里了。
And then around the beginning of March, Ibrahim got sick, was dropping weight, vomiting, diarrhea.
然后在三月初左右，易卜拉欣生病了，体重下降，呕吐，腹泻。
He said when he saw Walid, he noticed Walid had similar symptoms.
他说，当他看到瓦利德时，他注意到瓦利德有类似的症状。
Ibrahim was so sick, he said, he couldn't make it to the toilet in time.
易卜拉欣说，他病得很重，无法及时去厕所。
He said his sheets were filthy.
他说他的床单很脏。
He couldn't wash his clothes.
他无法洗衣服。
He smelled.
他闻了闻。
It made him feel like a little child.
这让他感觉自己像个小孩子。
Ibrahim told Haaretz that when he asked for medical help, he was given an over-the-counter drug similar to Tylenol and was told to eat rice and drink water.
易卜拉欣告诉国土报，当他寻求医疗帮助时，他得到了一种类似于泰诺的非处方药，并被告知要吃米饭和喝水。
He said five of his nine cellmates had the same symptoms.
他说，他的九名狱友中有五人有同样的症状。
Ibrahim said Walid deteriorated visibly.
易卜拉欣说，瓦利德的病情明显恶化。
He said he saw Walid the morning he died.
他说他死的那天早上他看到了瓦利德。
OK.
好的。
So we were out for the break.
所以我们出去休息了。
Everybody ran towards the bathrooms.
大家都跑向卫生间。
His body was weak.
他的身体很虚弱。
He couldn't walk a lot.
他不能走很多路。
He couldn't run.
他跑不了。
Neither could I.
我也不能。
He opened the cell door.
他打开牢房门。
We came out towards the bathrooms.
我们朝浴室走去。
Suddenly, he fell on the floor and started bleeding from his mouth.
突然，他摔倒在地上，嘴里开始流血。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Interpreter They told us to go back to the cells.
[阿拉伯语] 翻译 他们让我们回到牢房。
We thought it was going to be a crackdown and beating.
我们以为这将是一场镇压和殴打。
But when we went back into the cells, Walid was bleeding out of his mouth.
但当我们回到牢房时，瓦利德的嘴里正在流血。
They put him on the gurney and took him.
他们把他放在轮床上并把他带走。
After Walid died, Ibrahim said the prison made a few changes.
瓦利德去世后，易卜拉欣说监狱做了一些改变。
They separated out the thinnest prisoners and gave them more food, brought in a washing machine.
他们把最瘦的囚犯分开，给他们更多的食物，还引进了一台洗衣机。
In May, six weeks after Walid died, Ibrahim was released from prison 11 days early.
5 月，瓦利德去世六周后，易卜拉欣提前 11 天出狱。
Ibrahim says he weighed 159 pounds when he entered prison.
易卜拉欣说，他入狱时体重为 159 磅。
When he left, he was only 101 pounds, according to the parole board.
据假释委员会称，当他离开时，他的体重只有 101 磅。
The parole board noted he was, quote, "difficult to look at and a cause of great concern."
假释委员会指出，他“很难看，值得高度关注”。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Interpreter This is for Walid.
[阿拉伯语] 口译员 这是瓦利德的。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Interpreter And this is for Walid.
[阿拉伯语] 口译员 这是给瓦利德的。
When I visited Khaled in April at the family's home-- it's pretty-- stone, lots of tall windows-- he showed me Walid's trophies and ribbons on a display shelf in their sitting room.
当我四月份去哈立德家里拜访时——那儿很漂亮——石头砌成，有很多高高的窗户——他给我看了瓦利德在客厅展示架上的奖杯和丝带。
They were for soccer-- Walid was a goalie-- and also for kickboxing.
它们适用于足球——瓦利德是一名守门员——也适用于跆拳道。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Interpreter This also was for Walid.
[阿拉伯语] 翻译 这也是给瓦利德的。
And also a competition known as the math Olympics.
还有一项被称为数学奥林匹克的竞赛。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Interpreter I put him in private school since he was bright and driven.
[阿拉伯语] 翻译 我把他送进了私立学校，因为他很聪明，有干劲。
He was well known for his intelligence and his excellence in math.
他以其聪明才智和出色的数学能力而闻名。
The kid in Khaled's head was Walid suspended in amber, Walid from before he was arrested, this energetic teenager barreling towards adulthood.
哈立德脑子里的孩子是悬浮在琥珀中的瓦利德，是他被捕之前的瓦利德，这个精力充沛的少年正在快速走向成年。
He had big ideas for the family business.
他对家族企业有远大的想法。
He wanted to expand, open more stores, learn different roasting and grinding methods, get into cappuccino and espresso.
他想要扩张，开设更多商店，学习不同的烘焙和研磨方法，涉足卡布奇诺和浓缩咖啡。
He wanted the company to be a brand name.
他希望公司成为一个品牌。
Khaled had been planning to take Walid on a trip to Brazil this summer.
哈立德本来计划今年夏天带瓦利德去巴西旅行。
Walid had never been.
瓦利德从来没有去过。
He had just signed Walid up for driving lessons when he was arrested.
被捕时，他刚刚为瓦利德报名参加驾驶课程。
They were a close family.
他们是一个亲密的家庭。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Interpreter We have a table here in the house, in the middle.
[阿拉伯语] 口译员 我们房子中间有一张桌子。
And we would spend so much time chasing each other around the table.
我们会花很多时间围着桌子互相追逐。
I would come from here.
我会从这里来。
He would go from there.
他将从那里出发。
I would go from there.
我会从那里开始。
He would come from here.
他将从这里而来。
I would climb the table to get to him.
我会爬上桌子去找他。
But because he was in good shape, he would get away.
但因为他身体状况良好，所以他会逃脱。
His mom would feel bad for him and tell me, poor him, you keep chasing after him.
他妈妈会为他感到难过并告诉我，可怜的他，你一直在追他。
I tell her, he is the one chasing me.
我告诉她，他就是追我的人。
The reason Khaled agreed to an autopsy in the first place is that his lawyer told him it could help him get Walid's body back.
哈立德之所以同意尸检，首先是因为他的律师告诉他，这可以帮助他取回瓦利德的尸体。
It's the practice of the Israeli government to hold onto bodies of Palestinian prisoners, to keep them as bargaining chips.
以色列政府的做法是扣押巴勒斯坦囚犯的尸体，将其作为讨价还价的筹码。
Hamas does it too with Israeli bodies.
哈马斯也对以色列尸体这样做。
Since October 7, Israel hasn't released the bodies of any Palestinian prisoners, including Walid's.
自10月7日以来，以色列尚未释放任何巴勒斯坦囚犯的尸体，其中包括瓦利德的尸体。
So Khaled is still waiting.
所以哈立德还在等待。
He still hasn't buried his son.
他还没有埋葬他的儿子。
Our program was produced today by Dana Chivvis and Yael Even Or, edited by Nancy Updike, David Kestenbaum, and myself.
今天我们的节目由 Dana Chivvis 和 Yael Even Or 制作，由 Nancy Updike、David Kestenbaum 和我自己编辑。
The people who put together today's show include Jendayi Bonds, Michael Comite, Suzanne Gaber, Chana Joffe-Walt, Katherine Rae Mando, Valerie Kipnis, Andrea Marks, Stowe Nelson, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Ike Sriskandarajah, Lilly Sullivan, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Jendayi Bonds、Michael Comite、Suzanne Gaber、Chana Joffe-Walt、Katherine Rae Mando、Valerie Kipnis、Andrea Marks、Stowe Nelson、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Ike Sriskandarajah、Lilly Sullivan、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor's Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑莎拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Other people who worked on the show as reporters and producers-- Ahmad Al-Bazz, Jude Taha, Sawsan Khalife, and Hany Hawasly, editor Sara Yasin, translator Shani Aviram, Talia Krevsky, Bachar Al-Halabi and Dana Ballout, also voice actor Waleed Zuaiter.
其他担任该剧记者和制片人的人包括艾哈迈德·阿尔-巴兹 (Ahmad Al-Bazz)、裘德·塔哈 (Jude Taha)、索桑·卡莱夫 (Sawsan Khalife) 和哈尼·哈瓦斯利 (Hany Hawasly)、编辑萨拉·亚辛 (Sara Yasin)、翻译沙尼·阿维拉姆 (Shani Aviram)、塔利亚·克雷夫斯基 (Talia Krevsky)、巴查尔·阿尔·哈拉比 (Bachar Al-Halabi) 和达纳·巴鲁特 (Dana Ballout)，还有配音演员瓦利德·祖艾特 (Waleed Zuaiter)。
Special thanks today to Henriette Chacar, Noa Cohen, Matt Duss, Oriel Eisner, Daniel Estrin, Kara Lee Francis, Neda Frayha, Ori Givati, Ramy Ghaly, Amel Guettatfi, Harlo Holmes, Matthew Hooper, the team at Hotspot Cover, Aida Kadin, Ariel Kahana, Jessica Montell and Dani Shenhar at HaMoked, Riham Nasra, Raviv Rose.
今天特别感谢 Henriette Chacar、Noa Cohen、Matt Duss、Oriel Eisner、Daniel Estrin、Kara Lee Francis、Neda Frayha、Ori Givati、Ramy Ghaly、Amel Guettatfi、Harlo Holmes、Matthew Hooper、Hotspot Cover 团队、Aida Kadin、Ariel Kahana、Jessica Montell 和 HaMoked 的 Dani Shenhar、Riham Nasra、Raviv Rose。
Noa Sattath, Gabrielle Schonder, Stefan Schmitt, Guy Shalev, Ofer Shelah, Yehuda Shaul, Hagar Shezaf, and Seth Freed Wessler.
诺亚·萨塔斯、加布里埃尔·舍恩德、斯特凡·施密特、盖伊·沙莱夫、奥弗·谢拉、耶胡达·沙乌尔、哈加尔·谢扎夫和塞斯·弗里德·韦斯勒。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, who's like, yeah, yeah, Robert Frost.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生，他就像是，是的，是的，罗伯特·弗罗斯特。
Two roads diverged in a yellow wood.
黄色的树林里分出两条路。
But I have another road.
但我还有另一条路。
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。