862: Some Things We Don't Do Anymore - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #862 | June 20, 2025 862: Some Things We Don't Do Anymore Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 862 集 | 2025 年 6 月 20 日 862：我们不再做的一些事情 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。

OK, let's see what we got in here.

好的，让我们看看这里有什么。

How are you?

你好吗？

Good.

好的。

This is huge.

这是巨大的。

We're in a warehouse in Rhode Island, whose floor space is bigger than two full football fields, three stories tall, row after row after row of cardboard boxes stacked high, stretching far into the distance.

我们在罗德岛州的一个仓库里，仓库的面积比两个足球场还大，三层楼高，一排又一排的纸箱堆得高高的，一直延伸到远方。

I feel like the only thing that I know to compare this to is the last scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

我觉得我所知道的唯一可以与之比较的就是《夺宝奇兵》的最后一幕。

[LAUGHS] That's a pretty good comparison.

[笑]这是一个很好的比较。

Most of these cardboard boxes contain this nutritional peanut paste.

大多数纸板箱都含有这种营养花生酱。

It's a kind of miracle food made to strict international standards, officially called RUTF, Ready to Use Therapeutic Food, or Plumpy'Nut.

这是一种按照严格的国际标准制作的神奇食品，正式名称为 RUTF，即即用治疗食品，或 Plumpy'Nut。

Each box has two months' worth, enough to save the life of one severely malnourished child.

每盒的用量足以挽救一名严重营养不良儿童的生命。

Over 200,000 boxes that are sitting here in this warehouse.

这个仓库里存放着超过 200,000 个箱子。

Navyn Salem runs this place, making this stuff.

海军塞勒姆经营这个地方，制作这些东西。

And Sarah Rumsey is one of her managers.

莎拉·拉姆齐 (Sarah Rumsey) 是她的经理之一。

They explained that we're looking at millions of dollars of aid that's already been paid for by the United States government.

他们解释说，我们正在考虑美国政府已经支付的数百万美元的援助。

They manufactured it for the US Agency for International Development, USAID, before it was shut down by Elon Musk and Donald Trump.

他们为美国国际开发署 (USAID) 制造了它，然后被埃隆·马斯克 (Elon Musk) 和唐纳德·特朗普 (Donald Trump) 关闭。

If you look at these boxes, the majority do not have a country, destination, or paperwork to leave the facility.

如果您查看这些盒子，您会发现大多数都没有国家/地区、目的地或离开设施的文件。

And it's been sitting here since February, waiting for paperwork to be signed.

自二月份以来，它就一直坐在这里，等待文件签署。

The problem when you dismantle all of USAID, there are no people who can proceed with basic day-to-day jobs to process basic things, like contracts.

问题是，当你解散所有美国国际开发署时，就没有人可以继续处理基本的日常工作，例如合同。

And where was this food supposed to go?

这些食物应该去哪里？

Do you know?

你知道吗？

So this would typically go to Mali, Chad, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Sudan, South Sudan.

因此，这通常会流向马里、乍得、刚果民主共和国、苏丹、南苏丹。

Nearly a half billion dollars' worth of food was stuck in warehouses like this one or was in transit right after President Trump froze all foreign aid so suddenly, his first day in office.

在特朗普总统上任第一天突然冻结所有外国援助后，价值近 5 亿美元的食品被困在像这样的仓库中或正在运输途中。

It really wasn't clear what was going to happen to it, if it was going to be left to spoil, if it would get delivered.

真的不清楚它会发生什么，是否会被毁坏，是否会被交付。

Then the State Department said that life-saving food and medical aid could get permission to continue, but lots of it stayed stuck.

随后国务院表示，救生食品和医疗援助可以获准继续实施，但其中很多仍处于停滞状态。

Things were in a weird limbo while they were dismantling the agency that did that work, USAID, and transferring any of USAID's remaining functions over to the State Department.

当他们解散负责这项工作的美国国际开发署，并将美国国际开发署剩余的职能移交给国务院时，事情陷入了奇怪的困境。

People like Navyn had to operate in that limbo, in her case, trying to get this product out of her warehouse to the people who need it.

像纳文这样的人必须在这种困境中运作，就她而言，试图将这种产品从她的仓库中运送到需要它的人手中。

I feel like I'm in a movie that I don't want to be in.

我感觉自己就像在看一部我不想参加的电影。

I don't sleep.

我不睡觉。

I get up at 5 o'clock in the morning every day.

我每天早上5点起床。

The money and the time that we're spending trying to get a single signature--

我们为了获得单一签名而花费的金钱和时间——

Navyn founded this business.

纳文创立了这家公司。

It's called Edesia.

它的名字叫艾德西亚。

It's a nonprofit.

这是一个非营利组织。

We sit on the concrete floor in the middle of all these boxes to do our interview.

我们坐在所有这些盒子中间的水泥地板上进行采访。

And every detail that she tells me about how she ended up starting this company sounds like it's part of a fable in a kid's storybook, but a weird storybook where the hero dreams not of being a princess or a scientist or a detective, but of being a cog in America's foreign aid establishment.

她告诉我的关于她最终如何创办这家公司的每一个细节听起来都像是儿童故事书中寓言的一部分，但却是一本奇怪的故事书，其中英雄的梦想不是成为公主、科学家或侦探，而是成为美国对外援助机构的一个齿轮。

The reason that I'm here is my dad was given the first scholarship ever to an African student by USAID.

我来这里的原因是我父亲获得了美国国际开发署向非洲学生提供的第一份奖学金。

He came to the United States, lived with a host family, and lived in Michigan and went to university in Michigan.

他来到美国，住在寄宿家庭，住在密歇根州，并在密歇根州上大学。

I was born here.

我出生在这里。

And when I wrote my first grant proposal to USAID, I wrote a cover letter, and I said, I'm here because of you.

当我向美国国际开发署写第一份拨款提案时，我写了一封求职信，我说，我来这里是因为你。

Her dad came from Tanzania.

她的父亲来自坦桑尼亚。

And when her own kids were preschool age-- she has four girls-- Navyn says she started thinking a lot about doing something to help parents back in Tanzania and places like it.

当她自己的孩子到了学龄前年龄时——她有四个女儿——纳文说，她开始思考做些什么来帮助坦桑尼亚和类似地方的父母。

She heard about RUTFs from a story she saw on 60 Minutes and in 2008, started manufacturing, first in Tanzania, then in Rhode Island.

她从 60 分钟节目中看到的一个故事中听说了 RUTF，并于 2008 年开始生产，首先在坦桑尼亚，然后在罗德岛。

She had no manufacturing experience at all, had to learn everything, and then grew the business to a factory with 150 employees, a big chunk of them refugees from countries around the world that Edesia ships to, now legally living in Rhode Island.

她根本没有制造经验，必须学习一切，然后将业务发展到拥有 150 名员工的工厂，其中很大一部分是来自 Edesia 运送到的世界各地国家的难民，现在合法居住在罗德岛。

Navyn's the kind of boss who chats with everybody we run into in the factory and warehouse.

海军是那种会和我们在工厂和仓库遇到的每个人聊天的老板。

When the warehouse manager spots us sitting on the floor and decides to bring over some chairs, she jokes--

当仓库经理发现我们坐在地板上并决定搬来一些椅子时，她开玩笑说——

[LAUGHS] Do we look like we need help getting up?

[笑]我们看起来需要帮助才能站起来吗？

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

You guys, we're fine.

你们，我们都很好。

Don't worry.

不用担心。

Then she leans over to my producer, Ike, who's on the floor.

然后她向坐在地板上的我的制作人艾克倾身。

Ike, sit on the chair.

艾克，坐到椅子上。

Just pretend.

只是假装。

Just, I didn't want to insult them.

只是，我并不想侮辱他们。

Navyn describes her workday since January during this period of foreign aid limbo as an ongoing series of brand new, possibly business-ending, problems to solve, one after another.

纳文形容，自一月份以来，在对外援助陷入困境的这段时期，她的工作日就像是一系列持续不断的全新的、可能会导致业务终结的问题，一个接一个地需要解决。

She got stop-work orders from the government for shipments that were already in production.

她从政府那里收到了针对已经投入生产的货物的停工令。

Then the stop orders were reversed.

然后止损指令被逆转。

This happened twice.

这种情况发生了两次。

In February, when almost all the 10,000 employees at USAID were let go, the contracting officer that Navyn dealt with was one of them.

今年二月，美国国际开发署几乎全部解雇了 1 万名员工，与 Navyn 打交道的合同官员就是其中之一。

She suddenly found herself with nobody she could contact at the agency.

她突然发现自己在该机构找不到任何可以联系的人。

Meanwhile--

与此同时——

They broke the payment system.

他们破坏了支付系统。

Imagine not knowing that your entire cash flow is going to be turned off with no warning, and try to run a business with no money.

想象一下，你不知道你的全部现金流将在没有任何警告的情况下被关闭，并尝试在没有钱的情况下经营一家企业。

The government owed her a bunch of payments, totaling $24 million for orders placed last year.

政府欠她一大笔款项，去年的订单总额达 2400 万美元。

When it didn't come, she had to shut down the production lines for the first time in 15 years.

当它没有到来时，她不得不关闭生产线，这是 15 年来的第一次。

We got the funniest messages, like, your invoices have been rejected.

我们收到了最有趣的消息，例如，您的发票已被拒绝。

Thank you.

谢谢。

[LAUGHS] Like, OK.

[笑]就像，好吧。

The next obvious question is, why?

下一个明显的问题是，为什么？

Who is going to walk away and just be like, oh, that's fine?

谁会走开然后说，哦，没关系？

That was just $7 million.

那只是 700 万美元。

It's fine.

没关系。

You don't need to pay.

你不需要付钱。

Because you said they're rejected with no reason?

因为你说他们无缘无故被拒绝？

OK.

好的。

It's OK.

没关系。

And that's $7 million for stuff you've already made.

这相当于你已经制作的东西的 700 万美元。

I have a binding contract with USAID.

我与美国国际开发署签订了具有​​约束力的合同。

I bought the peanuts, I made the Plumpy'Nut, and I shipped it to the country that you required it to go to.

我买了花生，做了 Plumpy'Nut，然后把它运到了你需要它去的国家。

And then you decided that you cannot pay me.

然后你决定不能付钱给我。

And sometimes we get, "This contract has been canceled.

有时我们会得到，“这份合同已被取消。

Please resume your normal business activities." I'm like, you are my normal business activity.

请恢复正常的商业活动。”我想，你是我正常的商业活动。

I can't resume if we can't get along here.

如果我们不能在这里相处，我就无法继续。

The production line's conveyor belts are right outside her office, and she says she would sometimes look at them and think, every hour they were shut, that's 415 kids she couldn't feed.

生产线的传送带就在她办公室外面，她说有时看着它们就会想，每关闭一个小时，她就无法喂养 415 个孩子。

That's the calculation that's going through my head.

这就是我脑子里的计算。

That's the urgency that I feel.

这就是我所感受到的紧迫性。

And I'm trying to light things on fire to let people know.

我正试图点燃事情让人们知道。

How she's handled this is a good illustration of what you have to do when normal systems to solve problems no longer exist.

她的处理方式很好地说明了当解决问题的正常系统不再存在时你必须做什么。

Navyn's basically been working the phones and texts and emails nonstop, talking to anybody who might have information or might know somebody that might help her stay in production.

海军基本上一直在不停地打电话、发短信和电子邮件，与任何可能有信息或可能认识可能帮助她继续制作的人交谈。

She's done a ton of press and says it's actually helped.

她做了很多媒体报道，并表示这确实有所帮助。

It's led to random celebrities and people connected to the White House reaching out and trying to pull strings for her.

这导致一些名人和与白宫有联系的人伸出援手，试图为她幕后操纵。

Social media has helped, too.

社交媒体也起到了帮助作用。

Once it became clear that the State Department was going to take over all the functions of USAID, Navyn posted on Instagram looking for the name of somebody, anybody inside the State Department who might help her get shipments going again.

当国务院明确将接管美国国际开发署的所有职能后，纳文在 Instagram 上发帖，寻找国务院内部可能帮助她恢复货运的人的名字。

And, she says, incredibly, somebody saw that and reached out to say, oh, my god, I'm at dinner with the person you need.

而且，她说，令人难以置信的是，有人看到了这一点，并伸出手来说，哦，天哪，我正在和你需要的人共进晚餐。

And then is that person at the State Department, are they somebody who actually can help you?

那么国务院的那个人是真正可以帮助你的人吗？

And how's that going?

进展如何？

Navyn Salem Well, imagine that you have a company, and you fired everybody, except the CEO.

海军塞勒姆（Navyn Salem） 好吧，想象一下你有一家公司，你解雇了除了首席执行官之外的所有人。

This is basically the situation her contact at State Department is in.

这基本上就是她在国务院的联系人的情况。

Now, the CEO doesn't know how to do all the jobs in the company, so they can't.

现在，首席执行官不知道如何完成公司的所有工作，所以他们做不到。

And even if all they want with all their heart's desire is to get a transportation contract, the person who writes them and drafts them is no longer there.

即使他们一心一意地想要得到一份运输合同，但撰写和起草这些合同的人已经不在了。

So you can't.

所以你不能。

Then imagine that the CEO has to make every decision in the company, thousands of decisions a day, so-- And the CEO also just started less than two months ago.

然后想象一下，CEO要做出公司的每一个决定，每天有数千个决定，所以——而CEO也才刚刚上任不到两个月。

Yeah.

是的。

Step by step, some things have fallen in place.

一步一步来，有些事情已经水到渠成。

The government started paying again so she could restart her production lines in March.

政府再次开始付款，以便她可以在三月份重新启动生产线。

Her contracting officer came back, so she has somebody to talk to.

她的合同官员回来了，所以她有人可以交谈。

It was last month when I sat on the warehouse floor with her and recorded this interview.

上个月，我和她坐在仓库地板上录制了这次采访。

And since then, about half of the boxes have shipped out.

从那时起，大约一半的盒子已经运出。

The rest are still stuck.

其余的仍然卡住。

But a bigger problem is the future.

但更大的问题是未来。

The Trump administration has said that life-saving aid will continue in some form for some countries.

特朗普政府表示，将继续以某种形式向一些国家提供救生援助。

But the question is, how much?

但问题是，多少钱？

The State Department has only committed to one month's worth of RUTF production and nothing beyond it.

国务院只承诺生产一个月的 RUTF 产量，除此之外没有任何其他承诺。

And even that, they haven't issued contracts.

即便如此，他们还没有签订合同。

And there are people waiting for RUTF, all over the world.

世界各地都有人在等待 RUTF。

Dr. Mushtaq Khan oversees nutrition programs in Afghanistan for the International Rescue Committee and drops by their RUTF warehouse sometimes.

穆什塔克·汗 (Mushtaq Khan) 博士负责监督国际救援委员会在阿富汗的营养项目，有时也会顺便拜访他们的 RUTF 仓库。

Now, that warehouse is kind of deserted.

现在，那个仓库已经荒废了。

It should be the correct word.

这应该是正确的词。

But yeah, I would say empty shelves.

但是，是的，我想说的是空架子。

They are empty with empty pallets because the last bit of supply which we had, we shipped to our health facilities.

它们是空的，托盘是空的，因为我们把最后一点供应运到了我们的医疗机构。

So our central warehouse is empty now.

所以我们的中央仓库现在是空的。

Their health facilities around the country, the clinics that they shipped their RUTF to, have enough to last till the end of next month to the end of July.

他们遍布全国的医疗机构以及将 RUTF 运送到的诊所，其物资足以维持到下月底到 7 月底。

Dr. Khan says 900,000 children in Afghanistan fall into the category severely acute malnutrition, children so malnourished that babies don't have the energy to cry.

汗博士说，阿富汗有90万名儿童属于严重急性营养不良，这些儿童营养不良，以至于婴儿连哭的力气都没有。

And he's scared of how many will die if things don't change.

他担心如果事情不改变的话会有多少人死去。

I'm really afraid of that, that it might end up with a catastrophic situation because these RUTFs are the lifeline for them.

我真的很担心，这可能会导致灾难性的情况，因为这些 RUTF 是他们的生命线。

Without those, this might be the worst case scenario.

如果没有这些，这可能是最坏的情况。

And it might be.

也可能是这样。

I didn't know this when we spoke, but the Trump administration has said that it is not going to be sending any aid of any kind to Afghanistan, where Dr. Khan is, because, it says, that aid benefited terrorist groups.

我们谈话时我并不知道这一点，但特朗普政府表示，不会向汗博士所在的阿富汗提供任何形式的援助，因为它说，这些援助有利于恐怖组织。

This came after the administration suspended the people that USAID had in place to make sure that it did not go to terrorist groups.

此前，美国政府暂停了美国国际开发署的人员职务，以确保其不会流向恐怖组织。

July 1, just a couple of weeks from now, the State Department is supposed to finish taking over all the things that USAID used to do, whatever things are left.

7 月 1 日，也就是几周后，国务院应该完成接管美国国际开发署过去所做的所有事情，无论剩下的事情。

And as this period of limbo ends, this period of transition between agencies, as we all wait to see what scraps of American foreign aid remain when it's done, we thought it would be a good moment to ask, what was that all about, USAID?

随着这段悬而未决的时期结束，这段机构之间的过渡时期，当我们都在等待美国对外援助完成后还剩下哪些碎片时，我们认为现在是一个很好的时机来问，美国国际开发署到底是怎么回事？

The recent public conversation about this tends to be either outraged Democrats defending our decades of foreign aid or conservatives of all kinds pointing out waste and corruption.

最近有关此问题的公开讨论要么是愤怒的民主党人捍卫我们数十年的对外援助，要么是各种保守派人士指出浪费和腐败。

The truth is even diehard, lifelong advocates of foreign aid said it wasn't perfect.

事实是，即使是顽固的外援倡导者也表示，援助并不完美。

We thought we'd take some time here today to step back from the regular pro and con positions on this one and ask, what were the good things that aid accomplished?

我们认为今天我们应该花一些时间在这里抛开关于这一问题的常规赞成和反对立场，并问一下，援助取得了哪些好处？

What projects did more harm than good?

哪些项目弊大于利？

How should we think about this, now that so much of it seems to be going away?

既然这么多东西似乎正在消失，我们应该如何看待这个问题呢？

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

Act One, 63 Years, 7 Months, 26 Days.

第一幕，63 年 7 个月 26 天。

That length of time, that is the entire existence of the federal agency USAID, from the day it was created in November of 1961, until the last day of this month, which the Trump administration hopes will be the last day it is running any operations.

这段时间，就是美国国际开发署这一联邦机构从 1961 年 11 月创建之日起，一直到本月最后一天，特朗普政府希望这将是其开展任何业务的最后一天。

During those years, the agency spent hundreds of billions of dollars.

那些年里，该机构花费了数千亿美元。

The United States was the largest humanitarian donor in the world.

美国是世界上最大的人道主义捐助国。

So what did it buy?

那么它买了什么？

Where was that money well spent, and where was it a waste?

这笔钱到底花在哪里，又花在哪里？

David Kestenbaum on our staff talked with two people who know that history well.

我们的员工大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (David Kestenbaum) 与两位熟悉这段历史的人进行了交谈。

The year USAID was founded, John F.

美国国际开发署成立那一年，约翰·F.

Kennedy was president, and he was trying to figure out what the US should be in the world.

肯尼迪是总统，他试图弄清楚美国在世界上应该扮演什么角色。

It was an interesting moment for that.

这是一个有趣的时刻。

The year before, 17 countries in Africa had gained independence from decades of colonial rule.

前一年，17个非洲国家摆脱了数十年的殖民统治，获得了独立。

These were new nations.

这些是新国家。

India had also become independent some years before, and Indonesia, other countries, too.

印度几年前也已独立，印度尼西亚和其他国家也已独立。

Joshua Craze wrote about all this recently in The New York Review of Books, really, trying to do what we're trying to do in today's show-- weigh up the good and the bad of what followed.

约书亚·克拉兹（Joshua Craze）最近在《纽约书评》上写了这一切，实际上是在尝试做我们在今天的节目中想做的事情——权衡接下来发生的事情的好坏。

I think for Kennedy, the goal is to bring development to the rest of the world.

我认为对于肯尼迪来说，目标是为世界其他地区带来发展。

That's the stated goal.

这就是既定目标。

There are new nations around the world.

世界各地出现了新的国家。

And he says, look, what we're doing is going to bring up these nations, just like we brought up Europe after World War II.

他说，看，我们正在做的事情将培养这些国家，就像我们在二战后培养欧洲一样。

After World War II, with the Marshall Plan, we gave massive assistance to European countries that had been wrecked by the war.

二战结束后，我们通过马歇尔计划，向遭受战争破坏的欧洲国家提供了大量援助。

And it was a huge success.

这是一个巨大的成功。

Their economies rebounded.

他们的经济出现反弹。

But Kennedy didn't want to help these new countries just because it seemed like the right thing to do.

但肯尼迪并不想仅仅因为这似乎是正确的事情而帮助这些新国家。

There was another reason, kind of big in 1961-- he didn't want them to become Communist.

还有另一个原因，在 1961 年是一个很大的原因——他不希望他们成为共产主义者。

The US was worried all these countries were going to fall under Soviet influence.

美国担心所有这些国家都会受到苏联的影响。

When he first starts USAID, Kennedy addresses all the heads of the agency and says to them, in many places where freedom is under threat, we will not send Marines.

当肯尼迪首次启动美国国际开发署时，他向该机构的所有负责人发表讲话，并对他们说，在许多自由受到威胁的地方，我们不会派遣海军陆战队。

We will send you.

我们会寄给您。

(SUBJECT) JOHN F.

（主题）约翰·F.

KENNEDY: We send you.

肯尼迪：我们派你去。

And you working with the people in those countries to try to work with them in developing the--

你们与这些国家的人民一起努力，努力与他们一起发展——

You have huge variety of projects.

您有各种各样的项目。

You have massive agricultural schemes to modernize agriculture in Southeast Asia.

你们有大规模的农业计划来实现东南亚的农业现代化。

You have schemes to create banking systems inside Africa.

你们计划在非洲境内创建银行系统。

You have schemes to create democracy and education.

你们有创造民主和教育的计划。

You have free press.

你们有新闻自由。

You have all sorts of-- like, take America, look around the world, and go, is this thing there?

你有各种各样的——比如，以美国为例，环顾世界，然后看看，有这个东西吗？

And if America's not there, we just try to make it like America.

如果美国不在那里，我们就努力让它变得像美国一样。

That was the goal, you know?

这就是目标，你知道吗？

And there were a lot of very idealistic people doing this work.

有很多非常理想主义的人在做这项工作。

Huge, ambitious, and maybe ill-conceived goal-- make every place more like America.

宏伟、雄心勃勃、也许考虑不周的目标——让每个地方都更像美国。

How well did it work?

效果如何？

In most cases, not very well.

在大多数情况下，情况不太好。

I talked to John Norris about this.

我和约翰·诺里斯谈过这个问题。

He wrote what, as far as I can tell, is the only really straight-up history of USAID, a book called The Enduring Struggle.

据我所知，他写了一本名为《持久的斗争》的书，这是美国国际开发署唯一真正直接的历史。

He also worked at USAID for a while.

他还曾在美国国际开发署工作过一段时间。

Norris says for development to work, the country's government has to make a bunch of difficult changes-- enact economic reforms, invest in education.

诺里斯表示，为了让发展发挥作用，该国政府必须做出一系列艰难的改变——实施经济改革、投资教育。

You need legal systems and contracts, all sorts of stuff.

你需要法律体系和合同，各种各样的东西。

And you need a government with the will to push all that through.

你需要一个有意愿推动这一切的政府。

Some countries were run by autocrats who didn't really care for helping the general population.

有些国家是由独裁者统治的，他们并不真正关心帮助普通民众。

And the ones who did care?

那些关心的人呢？

It was still hard to make those changes.

做出这些改变仍然很困难。

It would be for any nation.

这对任何国家都是如此。

And, John Norris says, colonialism had really damaged a lot of countries.

而且，约翰·诺里斯说，殖民主义确实损害了许多国家。

They had always been actively discouraged from developing a civil service or engineers or doctors by their colonial leaders.

殖民地领导人一直积极劝阻他们培养公务员、工程师或医生。

And literally, countries emerging in independence, where there might only be a handful of doctors, lawyers, or engineers that have been trained in the country, very little in the way of competent civil service, that is a very low base to start from.

从字面上看，新兴的独立国家可能只有少数在该国接受过培训的医生、律师或工程师，很少有合格的公务员，这是一个非常低的基础。

There are a couple real successes, though.

不过，还是有一些真正的成功。

The textbook example is, really, South Korea.

教科书上的例子确实是韩国。

South Korea, in the early '60s, was absolutely devastated.

20 世纪 60 年代初的韩国遭受了彻底的破坏。

The country had labored under a brutal Japanese occupation for decades.

几十年来，这个国家一直在日本残酷的占领下苦苦挣扎。

It had been devastated by the Korean War.

它曾因朝鲜战争而遭到破坏。

The countryside was pretty much in ruin.

乡村几乎成了废墟。

And then a really remarkable set of changes began to happen, with a lot help from US assistance.

然后，在美国援助的大力帮助下，一系列真正引人注目的变化开始发生。

All kinds of economic reforms.

各种经济改革。

The government distributed land to small farmers, invested in schools.

政府向小农分配土地，投资兴建学校。

The US trained government officials on budgeting and on economic policy.

美国对政府官员进行预算和经济政策方面的培训。

A major reason it worked was the South Korean president, Park Chung Hee, who forced through all kinds of economic changes.

它之所以奏效的一个主要原因是韩国总统朴正熙强制实施了各种经济变革。

One historian said he instituted a, quote, "developmental dictatorship." Today, South Korea is one of the largest economies in the world.

一位历史学家说，他建立了一种“发展独裁统治”。如今，韩国是世界上最大的经济体之一。

How involved was USAID in all those changes in South Korea?

美国国际开发署在多大程度上参与了韩国的所有这些变化？

Incredibly, that they would have a weekly meeting with senior cabinet officials on economic reform, on education, on agrarian policy.

令人难以置信的是，他们每周都会与内阁高级官员就经济改革、教育和土地政策举行会议。

South Korean officials were flown to the United States to meet with business leaders to understand how they could better prepare their exports for the US market.

韩国官员飞往美国会见商界领袖，了解他们如何更好地为美国市场的出口做好准备。

It was day to day, week to week, and very intense.

日子一天天过去，一周又一周，而且非常紧张。

So there is South Korea.

所以就有了韩国。

Taiwan is another example.

台湾是另一个例子。

But overall, pretty mixed bag.

但总的来说，鱼龙混杂。

John Norris says there is one more category of things that did not work that's worth including here.

约翰·诺里斯说，还有一类不起作用的事情值得包括在这里。

There's a consistent theme to the places where AID had its biggest failures, and it's in those places where it was used as a blunt instrument of US foreign and security policy.

援助遭受最大失败的地方有一个一致的主题，那就是它被用作美国外交和安全政策的生硬工具的地方。

The wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and, before that, Vietnam, the US spent billions and billions of dollars in aid money, he says, basically, to try to win people over and prop up the governments that were our allies, which is not a recipe for success.

他说，在阿富汗、伊拉克以及之前的越南战争中，美国花费了数十亿美元的援助资金，基本上是为了试图赢得人们的支持并支持我们的盟友政府，但这并不是成功的秘诀。

At one point, a quarter of all USAID global staff was operating out of Vietnam, without much to show for it.

曾几何时，美国国际开发署全球工作人员中有四分之一在越南开展工作，但没有太多表现。

So that was the first goal-- help countries develop economically.

所以这是第一个目标——帮助各国经济发展。

There was a second goal for USAID, though-- to fight communism.

不过，美国国际开发署还有第二个目标——对抗共产主义。

How did that go?

进展如何？

Well, communism is gone, except for like eight friends of mine in Oakland.

好吧，共产主义已经消失了，除了我在奥克兰的八个朋友。

So I think it's--

所以我认为这是——

[LAUGHTER] David Kestenbaum Thanks to USAID.

[笑声] David Kestenbaum 感谢美国国际开发署。

Yes, thanks to USAID.

是的，感谢美国国际开发署。

David Kestenbaum Neither of them saw USAID playing a big role.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 他们都没有看到美国国际开发署发挥了重要作用。

I would give them a solid star for the effort.

我会给他们一颗坚实的星星，感谢他们的努力。

Certainly, the Soviets collapsed because it was a miserable system that was always designed to fail.

当然，苏联的崩溃是因为它是一个注定会失败的悲惨制度。

And, very broad strokes, that is the first half of USAID's history.

概括地说，这就是美国国际开发署历史的前半部分。

There's a real change in the second half.

下半场发生了真正的变化。

Communism is gone now, so that can't be the mission anymore.

共产主义现在已经不复存在，所以这不再是使命。

Helping countries develop seems hard.

帮助国家发展似乎很困难。

So there is this shift to something much more basic-- trying to assist people most in need, humanitarian aid, and fighting disease.

因此，我们正在转向更基本的事情——努力帮助最需要帮助的人、人道主义援助和抗击疾病。

In fact, when USAID was shut down this year, these were the largest parts of its spending.

事实上，当美国国际开发署今年关闭时，这些是其支出的最大部分。

In 2024, out of $35 billion of programs it managed, about $10 billion was going to humanitarian aid and $10 billion for health.

到 2024 年，在其管理的 350 亿美元项目中，约 100 亿美元用于人道主义援助，100 亿美元用于医疗卫生。

There is good and less good here, also, over the years.

多年来，这里也有好的一面，也有不太好的一面。

First, the good-- we eradicated smallpox.

首先，好的方面——我们消灭了天花。

Smallpox claimed 300 million lives in the 20th century alone, 300 million.

仅在 20 世纪，天花就夺走了 3 亿人的生命，3 亿人。

That is just an eye-popping number.

这只是一个令人瞠目结舌的数字。

A joint effort by USAID, CDC, the World Health Organization, and the Soviet Union, and some innovative technology wiped smallpox off the map, the first time in human history that a disease had been eradicated.

美国国际开发署、疾病预防控制中心、世界卫生组织和苏联的共同努力以及一些创新技术将天花从地图上消灭了，这是人类历史上第一次消灭一种疾病。

And the benefits of it-- and this is one of the things where people forget how powerful the returns are of assistance for the United States itself-- the entire amount that we spent on smallpox, in the effort to eradicate it, and delivering all those vaccines around the globe, we save that same amount every 24 days, 24 days, because we don't have to vaccinate Americans against smallpox.

它的好处——这是人们忘记了对美国本身的援助有多么强大的回报的原因之一——我们在天花上花费的全部金额，为了根除天花，并在全球范围内提供所有这些疫苗，我们每24天、24天就节省了同样的金额，因为我们不必为美国人接种天花疫苗。

Actually, it's 26 days, but still a win.

事实上，已经26天了，但仍然是胜利。

Not every example is so clean, though.

但并不是每个例子都那么干净。

Joshua Craze says the aid sometimes props up governments that aren't so great.

约书亚·克拉兹表示，援助有时会支撑不太好的政府。

Even sending in food can be complicated.

即使送食物也可能很复杂。

He spent a lot of time covering the conflicts in Sudan and South Sudan.

他花了很多时间报道苏丹和南苏丹的冲突。

Very often, that humanitarian aid is diverted to the government or to the very people conducting campaigns of ethnic cleansing.

很多时候，人道主义援助被转给政府或进行种族清洗运动的人们。

Then there's the question of, OK, how do you get the food aid to people?

那么问题来了，如何向人们提供粮食援助？

Well, you have to hire trucking companies.

好吧，你必须雇用货运公司。

Who owns the trucking companies?

谁拥有货运公司？

Sometimes the trucking companies are connected to the government.

有时货运公司与政府有联系。

And so you have this most disgusting logic sometimes, which is that the humanitarians end up sustaining the financial base of the very people who've displaced the civilians that the humanitarians tend to.

所以有时你会有这种最令人厌恶的逻辑，那就是人道主义者最终维持了那些使平民流离失所的人的经济基础，而人道主义者往往是这些人。

So they support the hell that they're supposed to minister.

所以他们支持他们应该服务的地狱。

What do you make of the Trump administration's critique of USAID?

您如何看待特朗普政府对美国国际开发署的批评？

So different parts of the Trump administration had different critiques of USAID.

因此，特朗普政府的不同部门对美国国际开发署有不同的批评。

One critique was USAID is an organization that pushes a particular political agenda around the world that is not very American.

一种批评是，美国国际开发署是一个在世界各地推动特定政治议程的组织，但它不太美国化。

I think that was a distraction from what they were actually doing.

我认为这分散了他们实际所做的事情的注意力。

You could have cut all of the supposed transgender operas in Bolivia and left the core mission.

你本可以删掉玻利维亚所有所谓的变性歌剧并留下核心任务。

That is one explanation the Trump administration has offered.

这是特朗普政府提供的一种解释。

It put out a press release listing a handful of projects it considered waste, fraud, and abuse, including a DEI musical in Ireland, which seems like it was from 2022, also an electric vehicle program in Vietnam.

它发布了一份新闻稿，列出了一些它认为浪费、欺诈和滥用的项目，其中包括爱尔兰的一部 DEI 音乐剧（似乎是 2022 年的），还有越南的一个电动汽车项目。

Most were pretty small ticket items.

大多数都是很小的门票项目。

Secretary of State Marco Rubio has offered a different critique, that USAID was funding things that were not in the US national interest.

国务卿马可·卢比奥提出了不同的批评，称美国国际开发署正在资助不符合美国国家利益的事情。

The other critique of USAID is bound up in this bigger issue for the Trump administration, which is, why is the US paying for everything?

对美国国际开发署的另一个批评与特朗普政府面临的一个更大问题有关，即为什么美国要为一切买单？

We are paying-- we've got to get our-- I'm sorry for my American accent-- but like, we've gotta get our money back somehow.

我们正在付钱——我们必须收回我们的——我很抱歉我的美国口音——但是，我们必须以某种方式拿回我们的钱。

And this is a really, for me, simplistic view of politics and economics.

对我来说，这确实是一种过于简单化的政治和经济观点。

Dollar dominance has been so good for America.

美元的主导地位对美国来说非常有利。

And dollar dominance is carried out because it is the world currency.

而美元的主导地位是因为它是世界货币而得以实现的。

And that's also guaranteed by things like USAID.

美国国际开发署等机构也保证了这一点。

You know, that the Trump administration is worried that you're not getting respect from South Africa because-- but you're giving malaria drugs.

你知道，特朗普政府担心你没有得到南非的尊重，因为你正在提供疟疾药物。

The reality is, until three months ago, everywhere I went in the Horn of Africa, people thought the one space of goodness and hope in the world was America.

现实是，直到三个月前，我在非洲之角所到之处，人们都认为世界上唯一充满善良和希望的地方就是美国。

And they might have been wrong about that in many ways.

他们在很多方面可能都错了。

And America might have done all sorts of bad things and been imperialist in all sorts of ways.

美国可能做了各种各样的坏事，并且以各种各样的方式成为帝国主义。

But it was a real belief, and it's gone.

但这曾经是一个真实的信念，但它已经消失了。

And I just-- I think that's, from the perspective of American hegemony, an incalculable loss.

我只是——我认为，从美国霸权的角度来看，这是一个无法估量的损失。

John Norris had similar feelings, despite all the things over the years that hadn't worked.

约翰·诺里斯也有类似的感受，尽管多年来所有的事情都不起作用。

When some future historian goes to write this next chapter, he worries, it's not going to be a good one.

当未来的历史学家去写下一章时，他担心这不会是一个好的章节。

David Kestenbaum, the senior editor of our show.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (David Kestenbaum)，我们节目的高级编辑。

Coming up, we go visit a hospital funded by USAID.

接下来，我们去参观美国国际开发署资助的一家医院。

It's pretty nice.

非常漂亮。

Too nice?

太好了？

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program.

今天的节目。

Some Things We Don't Do Anymore, stories of this period that we're going through right now, where the Trump administration stopped everything USAID was funding, then pledged to restart a lot of it, especially life-saving assistance, food, and medicines.

我们不再做的一些事情，我们现在正在经历的这个时期的故事，特朗普政府停止了美国国际开发署的所有资助，然后承诺重新启动其中的大部分资金，特别是救生援助、食品和药品。

Right now when you add it up, over half the money USAID spends is supposed to continue.

现在，当你加起来时，美国国际开发署支出的一半以上应该会继续下去。

But most of that money has not gone out, and it's unclear how much of it ever will.

但大部分资金还没有花出去，也不清楚其中有多少会花出去。

We've arrived at Act Two of our program.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Act Two, Case Study.

第二幕，案例研究。

OK, so what happens when you pump hundreds of millions of US dollars into a country?

好吧，那么当你向一个国家注入数亿美元时会发生什么？

We're interested in both the good things that happen and the bad.

我们对发生的好事和坏事都感兴趣。

And the place that we picked to look at this is a tiny African country called Eswatini, only 1.2 million people, right between South Africa and Mozambique.

我们选择观察这一点的地方是一个名为斯威士兰的非洲小国，只有 120 万人口，位于南非和莫桑比克之间。

It used to be called Swaziland.

它曾经被称为斯威士兰。

They're interesting for a few reasons.

它们之所以有趣有几个原因。

One is that they were part of one of the most successful things USAID has ever done, a program called PEPFAR, billions of dollars in over 50 countries that everybody agrees saved millions of lives.

一是它们是美国国际开发署有史以来最成功的事情之一的一部分，即一项名为“PEPFAR”的计划，该计划在 50 多个国家投入了数十亿美元，每个人都认为该计划挽救了数百万人的生命。

PEPFAR was created to combat AIDS.

总统防治艾滋病紧急救援计划 (PEPFAR) 的创建是为了抗击艾滋病。

And for a long time, the country with the highest percentage of people with HIV has been Eswatini.

长期以来，艾滋病毒感染者比例最高的国家是斯威士兰。

So Eswatini is a good place to measure whether the aid has helped.

因此，斯威士兰是衡量援助是否有所帮助的好地方。

But Eswatini also seemed like a good place to look at for another reason.

但出于另一个原因，斯威士兰似乎也是一个值得参观的好地方。

And this reason we heard about from a Washington Post reporter named Chico Harlan.

我们从一位名叫 Chico Harlan 的《华盛顿邮报》记者那里得知了这个原因。

Chico had been calling around to all kinds of organizations that had lost their funding when the Trump administration froze all that in January.

当特朗普政府在一月份冻结所有资金时，奇科一直在打电话给各种失去资金的组织。

Most of them did not want to talk on the record.

他们中的大多数人不想公开谈论。

They thought it might hurt their chances of getting funding in the future.

他们认为这可能会损害他们未来获得资金的机会。

But Chico found a health provider in Eswatini called the Luke Commission that got a ton of USAID money in the past, whose leaders were not only willing to talk, they were pretty frank in expressing their own doubts and questions about whether the money they had gotten was entirely a good thing for Eswatini.

但奇科发现斯威士兰有一个名为“卢克委员会”的医疗服务提供者，该机构过去获得了美国国际开发署的大量资金，其领导人不仅愿意谈论，而且非常坦率地表达了自己的疑虑和疑问，即他们获得的资金对斯威士兰是否完全是一件好事。

They were grappling with the good and bad of it.

他们正在努力应对其中的好处和坏处。

So, for instance, here's one of the founders of the Luke Commission, Harry VanderWal, an American doctor who's been in Eswatini for 20 years, talking about the Trump funding cuts.

举例来说，卢克委员会的创始人之一、美国医生哈里·范德沃尔 (Harry VanderWal) 在斯威士兰工作了 20 年，他正在谈论特朗普的资金削减。

Actually, I understand why they're doing what they're doing.

事实上，我理解他们为什么要做他们正在做的事情。

I get it, and I'm not against it at all.

我明白了，而且我一点也不反对。

I see that-- I can see that as a business strategy that makes sense.

我认为这是一种有意义的商业策略。

Is it painful for those on the other side of it?

对于另一边的人来说会很痛苦吗？

Of course.

当然。

And but as long as we do what we can to make sure people remain on medication-- and is that the responsibility of the US government to make sure people stay on medication?

但只要我们尽我们所能确保人们继续服药——确保人们继续服药是美国政府的责任吗？

I don't know if I can say that fully.

我不知道我是否可以完整地说出这句话。

This has been going on for decades now.

这种情况已经持续了几十年。

It's not necessarily their-- they can't take care of the whole world and their medical needs.

这不一定是他们的——他们无法照顾整个世界和他们的医疗需求。

So Chico and one of our producers, Diane Wu, went to Eswatini to see, what exactly did American taxpayer money accomplish there?

So Chico and one of our producers, Diane Wu, went to Eswatini to see, what exactly did American taxpayer money accomplish there?

And what went wrong?

出了什么问题？

They also get into it more with Harry later in the story.

在故事的后面，他们还与哈利进行了更多的接触。

Here they are.

他们在这里。

The first thing you see when you turn into the Luke Commission's campus these days is a gate.

如今，当你走进路加福音委员会的校园时，首先看到的就是大门。

And there's a sign that says "Closed until further notice."

还有一个牌子写着“关闭直至另行通知”。

We pull up and get checked in by a security guard--

我们停下来并接受保安检查——

Good morning.

早上好。

--who then runs through the manicured grounds ahead of our car to show us where to park.

--who then runs through the manicured grounds ahead of our car to show us where to park.

I feel like we're pulling up to a luxury hotel.

我感觉我们正开往一家豪华酒店。

Yeah, look, the rocks, the landscaping, the very moody lighting.

Yeah, look, the rocks, the landscaping, the very moody lighting.

There are these modern-looking sconces lighting the entrance to a slight gray building we pull up in front of, string lights.

There are these modern-looking sconces lighting the entrance to a slight gray building we pull up in front of, string lights.

Harry and Echo, the founders of the Luke Commission, are standing in front of the building to greet us.

Harry and Echo, the founders of the Luke Commission, are standing in front of the building to greet us.

Hi, Echo.

嗨，艾科。

Echo VanderWal Good to meet you.

埃科·范德沃尔 很高兴认识你。

Likewise, at last.

同样，最后。

Echo VanderWal Thanks.

回声范德沃尔谢谢。

I'm Harry.

我是哈利。

Chico Harlan Harry, nice to meet you.

奇科·哈伦·哈利，很高兴认识你。

Echo and Harry met in college and married right after.

Echo and Harry met in college and married right after.

They both had this Christian calling to do medical work overseas.

They both had this Christian calling to do medical work overseas.

So Harry became a doctor, and Echo became a physician's assistant.

So Harry became a doctor, and Echo became a physician's assistant.

As Harry was finishing up his residency, they heard about Eswatini from a friend and thought, that seems like a good place to go and help.

当哈利完成住院医师实习时，他们从朋友那里听说了斯威士兰，并认为这似乎是一个可以提供帮助的好地方。

Had either of you been to Africa before?

你们以前去过非洲吗？

I didn't even have a passport before.

我之前连护照都没有。

Had you ever been out of the country?

你出过国吗？

Just to Canada, but didn't need a passport at that point, I don't think.

Just to Canada, but didn't need a passport at that point, I don't think.

Yeah.

是的。

Chico Harlan Right after Harry graduated, they packed up and moved, the two of them, plus three-year-old triplets and an infant.

Chico Harlan Right after Harry graduated, they packed up and moved, the two of them, plus three-year-old triplets and an infant.

And if that sounds kind of bold, let me say, that is Echo.

And if that sounds kind of bold, let me say, that is Echo.

She is the CEO boss type, always with a plan and some talking points, calculatedly daring.

She is the CEO boss type, always with a plan and some talking points, calculatedly daring.

I think that's one of the reasons she's the rare aid recipient willing to talk to journalists.

我认为这就是她成为罕见的愿意接受记者采访的援助接受者的原因之一。

She's betting it might help.

她打赌这可能会有所帮助。

She's the public face of the Luke Commission.

她是卢克委员会的公众形象。

When we first had the kids, he said, if you do the emails, the phone calls, and the meetings, I'll take care of the family.

When we first had the kids, he said, if you do the emails, the phone calls, and the meetings, I'll take care of the family.

I'm happy to let her talk.

我很高兴让她说话。

I don't always communicate very well, so it's better if she does the speaking.

I don't always communicate very well, so it's better if she does the speaking.

[LAUGHTER] Echo VanderWal He's-- he's a doctor in internal medicine and pediatrics, so he's the smart one.

[LAUGHTER] Echo VanderWal He's-- he's a doctor in internal medicine and pediatrics, so he's the smart one.

I guess, I'm the practical one, maybe if we put it that way.

I guess, I'm the practical one, maybe if we put it that way.

Yeah.

是的。

The Luke Commission is named after Luke, from the Bible.

路加福音委员会以《圣经》中的路加命名。

Echo and Harry also really like the acronym, TLC.

Echo 和 Harry 也非常喜欢缩写词 TLC。

Faith-based hospitals like this one are all over sub-Saharan Africa.

像这样的信仰医院遍布撒哈拉以南非洲地区。

And just to state the obvious, Echo and Harry are the white people in a hospital that is almost entirely Black.

显而易见的是，艾科和哈利是一家几乎全是黑人的医院里的白人。

When Harry and Echo first arrived here from Ohio in 2006, Eswatini was in crisis.

2006 年，当哈利和艾科第一次从俄亥俄州来到这里时，斯威士兰正处于危机之中。

Something like 30% of the population had HIV, and there was no treatment.

大约 30% 的人口感染了艾滋病毒，而且没有治疗方法。

Antiretroviral drugs had started trickling into Eswatini, but hardly anyone could get them.

抗逆转录病毒药物已经开始流入斯威士兰，但几乎没有人能得到它们。

So many people died that one in 10 households was run by a child.

死亡人数如此之多，以至于十分之一的家庭是由儿童经营的。

Harry and Echo remember how in those early years, they saw one of their main goals as simply delaying orphanhood.

哈利和艾科记得早年他们的主要目标之一就是推迟成为孤儿的时间。

They drove around the country with interpreters and other local staff, setting up mobile medical clinics and schools, helping people get whatever medical care they could, all for free.

他们带着口译员和其他当地工作人员开车走遍全国，建立流动医疗诊所和学校，帮助人们获得尽可能多的医疗服务，而且都是免费的。

They paid for all this from their savings from flipping houses back in the US before they came, plus donations from family and friends.

这一切的费用都是他们来美国之前炒房的积蓄，加上家人和朋友的捐款。

And they caravanned this way on the cheap for a couple of years till the US stepped in, in a big way.

他们以这种方式廉价地旅行了几年，直到美国大规模介入。

Today on the continent of Africa, nearly 30 million people have the AIDS virus.

今天，在非洲大陆，有近3000万人感染艾滋病病毒。

This is President George W.

这是乔治·W·布什总统。

Bush delivering the State of the Union.

布什发表国情咨文。

This is what a Republican president used to sound like.

这就是共和党总统过去的样子。

Ladies and gentlemen, seldom has history offered a greater opportunity to do so much for so many.

女士们、先生们，历史很少提供如此大的机会为这么多人做这么多事情。

We must also remember our calling as a blessed country is to make the world better.

我们还必须记住，作为一个幸福国家，我们的使命是让世界变得更美好。

And to meet a severe and urgent crisis abroad, tonight I propose the Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, a work of mercy beyond all current international efforts to help the people of Africa.

为了应对国外严重而紧迫的危机，今晚我提出了艾滋病紧急救援计划，这是一项超出目前所有帮助非洲人民的国际努力的仁慈工作。

This plan, the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, or PEPFAR, becomes one of the biggest humanitarian foreign aid projects America has ever undertaken, totaling more than $120 billion, spent all over the world over 20 years.

这项计划，即总统艾滋病紧急救援计划（PEPFAR），成为美国有史以来实施的最大的人道主义对外援助项目之一，总额超过 1200 亿美元，历时 20 年在世界各地投入使用。

For comparison, the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe?

作为比较，重建欧洲的马歇尔计划？

Adjusted for inflation, around $180 billion.

经通货膨胀调整后，约为 1800 亿美元。

In Eswatini, PEPFAR money started arriving in 2007, some going directly to the government to support their national AIDS response, some to outside organizations.

在斯威士兰，PEPFAR 资金于 2007 年开始抵达，其中一些直接流向政府以支持其国家艾滋病防治工作，一些则流向外部组织。

In 2010, Harry and Echo get their first contract under PEPFAR, a modest grant, doing voluntary male circumcision.

2010 年，Harry 和 Echo 在总统防治艾滋病紧急救援计划 (PEPFAR) 下获得了第一份合同，这是一笔不大的补助金，从事自愿男性包皮环切术。

They asked us to participate in that, which we were very motivated to do because it decreases the transmission and contraction of HIV by 60%.

他们要求我们参与其中，我们非常积极地参与其中，因为这可以将艾滋病毒的传播和感染减少 60%。

So we started, and within one month, we were circumcising more men and boys in one community than they were in the rest of the country combined.

于是我们开始了，一个月之内，我们在一个社区进行的割礼的男性和男孩数量就超过了该国其他地区的总和。

I mean, one day we did 87 circumcisions in one day.

我的意思是，有一天我们一天内做了 87 次包皮环切术。

We were done by 9 o'clock at night.

晚上九点我们就完成了。

We are a machine.

我们是一台机器。

PEPFAR money completely changed the course of the AIDS epidemic in Eswatini.

总统防治艾滋病紧急援助计划（PEPFAR）的资金彻底改变了斯威士兰艾滋病流行的进程。

The number of people dying from AIDS went down by half.

死于艾滋病的人数减少了一半。

The average lifespan, which had dropped down to 41 years, fully rebounded.

下降至41岁的平均寿命全面反弹。

Over time, the Luke Commission became one of the biggest recipients of American aid in the country.

随着时间的推移，卢克委员会成为美国在该国援助的最大接受者之一。

It averaged over $6 million a year for the last five years.

过去五年平均每年超过 600 万美元。

And with all that money, their operations changed a lot.

有了这些钱，他们的运营发生了很大变化。

Echo and Harry bought this land and turned a storage shed into a ward for tuberculosis patients.

艾科和哈利买下了这块土地，并将一个储藏室改造成肺结核患者的病房。

And then they kept going.

然后他们继续前进。

They got physically bigger, adding an emergency room, an ICU, a maternity ward, growing to a true campus of 25 buildings.

他们的规模不断扩大，增设了急诊室、重症监护室、产科病房，发展成为拥有 25 栋建筑的真正园区。

And it wasn't just HIV care.

这不仅仅是艾滋病毒护理。

They were jumping in and providing all kinds of treatment that the government wasn't able to.

他们介入并提供政府无法提供的各种治疗。

Eventually, they were providing free medical treatment for a huge swath of the country.

最终，他们为该国大片地区提供免费医疗。

At their peak, according to their numbers, it was one fourth of all the hospital visits in the country-- a fourth.

根据他们的数字，在高峰时期，这是该国所有医院就诊次数的四分之一——四分之一。

And this giant expansion could not have happened without USAID.

如果没有美国国际开发署，这一巨大的扩张就不可能发生。

And when Harry and Echo walked us around the campus, you could really see the money everywhere.

当哈利和艾科带我们参观校园时，你真的可以看到到处都是钱。

It was honestly kind of posh.

老实说，这有点豪华。

First, all the medical stuff-- the four operating theaters, the airy ICU, a dental suite, all in beautiful condition, all almost totally empty since USAID froze their funding.

首先，所有的医疗设施——四个手术室、通风的重症监护室、牙科室，一切都状况良好，但自从美国国际开发署冻结资金以来，所有设施几乎都空了。

Then, the bells and whistles we had not expected when visiting an aid-funded hospital in Eswatini, like--

然后，当我们参观斯威士兰一家援助资助的医院时，出现了我们没有预料到的花哨的事情，比如——

Welcome to our drone hangar.

欢迎来到我们的无人机机库。

So this is Eswatini's very first medical drone network.

这是斯威士兰第一个医疗无人机网络。

The Luke Commission has four huge 8-foot white drones that they use to quickly deliver snakebite antivenom and other medicine to rural parts of the country that are hard to drive to.

卢克委员会有四架巨大的 8 英尺白色无人机，他们用它们快速向该国难以开车到达的农村地区运送蛇咬伤抗蛇毒血清和其他药物。

They also have a room full of iPads, 600 of them, all provided by PEPFAR, plus a giant screen that tracks the real-time location of each of the devices.

他们还有一个房间，里面摆满了 600 台 iPad，全部由 PEPFAR 提供，还有一个巨大的屏幕，可以跟踪每台设备的实时位置。

In the same room, they have a set of shiny 3D printers for making medical components.

在同一个房间里，他们有一套闪亮的 3D 打印机，用于制造医疗部件。

A few buildings over, in a sort of secret room they called "the vault," there were these giant futuristic vending machines that people could use to pick up their prescriptions, like an automated pharmacy.

几栋大楼外，在一个他们称之为“金库”的秘密房间里，有这些巨大的未来派自动售货机，人们可以用它来领取处方，就像自动化药房一样。

And you guys have two?

你们有两个吗？

Echo VanderWal No, we have three--

Echo VanderWal 不，我们有三个——

Three.

三。

Echo VanderWal --four, maybe five.

Echo VanderWal——四个，也许五个。

It was all way more advanced than anything I'd ever encountered with my own health care in the US.

这比我在美国遇到的任何医疗保健都先进得多。

As we walked around, I started to wonder, is this too nice?

当我们走来走去时，我开始想，这样是不是太好了？

Should a foreign aid-funded hospital be so opulent?

援外医院应该这么豪华吗？

We went and asked Echo about all this, and she was actually surprised we were bringing it up at all.

我们去询问艾科这一切，她实际上很惊讶我们竟然提出了这件事。

We do have Americans visit here all the time, and I'll be frank with you, you're the first one that's raised it.

我们确实经常有美国人来访，我坦白地告诉你，你是第一个提出这个问题的人。

Yeah, this isn't opulent.

是的，这并不富裕。

I think it's just excellent.

我认为这非常棒。

The drones and the automated pharmacy, she explained that they'd gotten private money for those, not USAID money.

她解释说，无人机和自动化药房是他们从私人资金中获得的，而不是美国国际开发署的资金。

And anyway, that's just a tiny part of their spending, just a couple percent.

不管怎样，这只是他们支出的一小部分，只有几个百分点。

The rest went to basics like medical supplies, paying staff.

其余的则用于医疗用品、支付员工工资等基本费用。

As for the 3D printers--

至于3D打印机——

Yeah, I think you'd be surprised how cheap they are.

是的，我想你会对它们如此便宜感到惊讶。

They might be $600.

它们可能是 600 美元。

I don't know.

我不知道。

We checked.

我们检查了。

One was $600.

一份是 600 美元。

The other, $1,400.

另一个，1,400 美元。

This was USAID money.

这是美国国际开发署的钱。

Echo estimated that these printers had so far saved them $25,000 in equipment costs.

Echo 估计，到目前为止，这些打印机已为他们节省了 25,000 美元的设备成本。

Her explanations were pretty convincing.

她的解释非常有说服力。

They won us over.

他们赢得了我们的支持。

And she kind of got into it, looking around the room we were in, pointing out all the scrappy ways they've kept their spending down.

她有点投入其中，环顾我们所在的房间，指出他们为了减少开支而采取的所有斗志旺盛的方式。

The deck chairs on the balcony over there?

那边阳台上有躺椅吗？

Made from pallets at the oxygen plant equipment came in.

由托盘制成的氧气厂设备进来了。

The set of plush recliners at the end of the room?

房间尽头的那套豪华躺椅？

Those were from one of the first circumcision projects.

这些来自第一个包皮环切项目。

After you got circumcised, you relaxed in those chairs.

割完包皮后，你就在那些椅子上放松了。

Relax and spread your legs out a little bit.

放松并稍微张开双腿。

I explained to Echo, as I followed her around campus--

当我跟着 Echo 在校园里转悠时，我向她解释道——

I was picturing, like, what if Marco Rubio were on this tour?

我在想象，如果马可·卢比奥参加这次巡演怎么办？

Like, what would he see?

比如，他会看到什么？

What would his reaction be?

他的反应会是什么？

And my thought was like, American taxpayer dollars are going to hundreds of iPads in Eswatini for AIDS?

我的想法是，美国纳税人的钱会捐给斯威士兰的数百台 iPad 来治疗艾滋病吗？

I feel if Marco Rubio came here, and he knew that they funded 600 iPads, and he found all the iPads here, and it allows you to see twice as many people with half as many staff, and he found that there's a system that when you leave the gate, if you're working out with an iPad that's supposed to be used for patient care, that there's a way-- there's a control that makes sure that that asset is doing what it's supposed to do, I just-- I think those are all things that would be cham--

我觉得如果马可·卢比奥来到这里，他知道他们资助了 600 台 iPad，他在这里找到了所有的 iPad，这让你可以用一半的员工看到两倍的人，他发现有一个系统，当你离开大门时，如果你正在使用本应用于病人护理的 iPad 进行锻炼，那么有一种方法 - 有一个控制装置可以确保该资产正在做它应该做的事情，我只是——我认为这些都是值得的——

I think he would be.

我想他会的。

Chico Harlan After USAID abruptly stopped its programs in January, the Luke Commission shut down everything to the bare essentials.

奇科·哈兰 (Chico Harlan) 在美国国际开发署 (USAID) 一月份突然停止其项目后，卢克委员会 (Luke Commission) 关闭了一切，只保留最基本的必需品。

Harry and Echo felt a moral obligation to keep giving out antiretroviral and tuberculosis drugs to HIV patients.

哈利和埃科感到有道德义务继续向艾滋病毒患者提供抗逆转录病毒和结核病药物。

So they continued that work.

所以他们继续这项工作。

They still did some snake bites-- they're the main hospital in the country that treats them-- and an occasional surgery.

他们仍然被蛇咬伤了一些——他们是该国治疗蛇咬伤的主要医院——并且偶尔进行手术。

But they also laid off half their staff and told everyone else who kept working that they could no longer afford to pay them.

但他们也解雇了一半的员工，并告诉所有继续工作的人，他们再也付不起工资了。

USAID covered half of their cash flow, and now it was gone.

美国国际开发署承担了他们一半的现金流，但现在它已经消失了。

They couldn't even pay their utility bills.

他们甚至付不起水电费。

And, for the first time, they started turning people away.

而且，他们第一次开始将人们拒之门外。

Workers put up the gate we saw.

工人们把我们看到的大门安装起来。

Confused patients called the Luke Commission to ask what's happening.

困惑的病人打电话给卢克委员会询问发生了什么事。

We talked to two people who answered those calls, Nompumelelo and her co-worker, Tanele.

我们采访了两位接听电话的人，Nompumelelo 和她的同事 Tanele。

They were at work, sitting at a big gray folding table, four phones between the two of them.

他们正在工作，坐在一张灰色的大折叠桌旁，两人之间放着四部手机。

Nompumelelo said they'd tell people on the phone that they weren't open anymore, and they'd show up anyway.

诺姆普梅莱罗说，他们会在电话里告诉人们他们不再营业了，但无论如何他们都会出现。

Some still don't believe that we are really closed, so they want to come and see themselves.

有些人仍然不相信我们真的关闭了，所以他们想亲自来看看。

They are like Thomas, the Thomas in the Bible.

他们就像托马斯，圣经中的托马斯。

Do you not believe when they say Jesus has risen?

他们说耶稣复活了，你不相信吗？

I want to see myself.

我想见见我自己。

[LAUGHS] So even some-- even the ones that are calling, most of them-- is it true that TLC is closed?

[笑]所以，即使是一些人——甚至是那些打电话来的人，他们中的大多数——TLC 真的关闭了吗？

How can that be?

怎么可能呢？

Tanele is in her 20s, in a red Luke Commission T-shirt and pencil skirt, and just sort of beams earnestness at you.

塔内尔 20 多岁，穿着卢克委员会的红色 T 恤和铅笔裙，对你露出一种真诚的笑容。

On your 21st birthday in Eswatini, there's this thing where parents give their kids a key, symbolizing you're an adult.

在斯威士兰，当你 21 岁生日时，父母会送给孩子一把钥匙，象征着你已经是成年人了。

Be free.

是自由的。

Do what you want.

做你想做的事。

Her parents gave her a Bible, which she laughed about.

她的父母给了她一本圣经，她笑了。

Her co-worker, Nompumelelo, is older, and extremely soft-spoken, which actually got her the job answering phones.

她的同事诺姆普梅莱洛（Nompumelelo）年纪较大，而且说话极其轻声细语，这实际上让她得到了接电话的工作。

They say my voice is soft.

他们说我的声音很温柔。

[LAUGHS] So they said I should assist her.

[笑]所以他们说我应该帮助她。

[CHUCKLES] No, because of my personality and also the voice.

[笑]不，因为我的个性和声音。

So yes.

所以是的。

Now that the Luke Commission is closed, the tens of thousands of patients they served have to find other health care.

现在卢克委员会关闭了，他们服务的数万名患者不得不寻找其他医疗保健。

We heard some pretty grim stories about the treatment people received in the national health care system-- a misdiagnosis, a botched surgery.

我们听到了一些关于人们在国家医疗保健系统中接受治疗的非常可怕的故事——误诊、拙劣的手术。

But the biggest problem people told us about was the lack of medicine and supplies.

但人们告诉我们的最大问题是缺乏药品和物资。

So when Nompumelelo and Tanele turn people away, the patients cry on the phone and plead for them to go and talk to the doctors, try to get them in.

因此，当诺姆普梅莱洛和塔内莱将人们拒之门外时，病人会在电话里哭泣，恳求他们去和医生谈谈，试图让他们进来。

And then when the doctor still says no, it's hard to go back to the patient and tell them, ish, because you know-- you feel what they are feeling.

然后，当医生仍然拒绝时，就很难回到病人身边并告诉他们，因为你知道——你能感受到他们的感受。

Due to the current situation, we can't help them.

鉴于目前的情况，我们无法帮助他们。

Ish.

是的。

[SIGHS]

[叹气]

Has anybody expressed anger at the American government for taking the money away?

有人对美国政府拿走钱表示愤怒吗？

The anger is not-- it's not towards the US government.

这种愤怒不是针对美国政府的。

But they are angry at our government--

但他们对我们的政府感到愤怒——

True, and that also that our government-- they know that our government is dragging feet to assist financially.

确实如此，我们的政府也知道我们的政府在财政援助方面拖拖拉拉。

Almost everyone we asked in Eswatini, people with and without ties to The Luke Commission said the same thing.

我们在斯威士兰询问的几乎每个人，无论是否与路加福音委员会有联系，都说了同样的话。

They weren't mad at the US for cutting off aid.

他们并不因为美国切断援助而生气。

Here's Colani.

这是科拉尼。

He's a security guard who stands at the new gate they built.

他是一名保安，站在他们建造的新大门前。

He had to turn people away, which he hated doing.

他不得不将人们拒之门外，而他讨厌这样做。

He lost both his parents early in the AIDS epidemic.

他在艾滋病流行初期就失去了双亲。

He told us he wishes a government official could stand at the gate with him and see all the people who aren't getting care.

他告诉我们，他希望政府官员能够和他一起站在门口，看看所有没有得到治疗的人。

The anger from my-- personally, it's actually at our own government.

我个人的愤怒实际上是针对我们自己的政府。

Why isn't our government intervening into this situation?

为什么我们的政府不干预这种情况呢？

That is where the frustration comes from, not the USAID.

这就是挫败感的来源，而不是美国国际开发署。

Of course, I mean, when you've always known that this person has always supported me, you'll get disappointed that, oh, why are they now leaving me?

当然，我的意思是，当你一直知道这个人一直支持我时，你会感到失望，哦，为什么他们现在离开我？

But we have our own government within our country that should actually be looking after us, you know?

但我们国家有自己的政府，实际上应该照顾我们，你知道吗？

The government of Eswatini, by the way, is an absolute monarchy.

顺便说一下，斯威士兰政府是绝对君主制。

King Mswati III has a lavish lifestyle-- famously gave each of his many wives a Rolls-Royce.

姆斯瓦蒂三世国王有着奢华的生活方式——众所周知，他的许多妻子都送给他一辆劳斯莱斯。

No one inside the country who we interviewed put the blame on him or said anything bad about him.

我们采访的国内没有人指责他或说他的坏话。

It's not prudent to criticize the king if you live there.

如果你住在那里，批评国王是不明智的。

Spending time in Eswatini made me realize a monarchy is basically a dictatorship with better branding.

在斯威士兰度过的时光让我意识到君主制基本上是一个具有更好品牌的独裁政权。

But dissidents living abroad say the king's patronage system fosters a culture of corruption throughout the government, including in the Ministry of Health.

但居住在国外的持不同政见者表示，国王的庇护制度在整个政府（包括卫生部）中助长了腐败文化。

And when people talked to us, those were the officials they focused on.

当人们与我们交谈时，他们关注的焦点就是那些官员。

I'll be honest.

我会说实话。

There's quite a lot of corruption, I'll be honest, in our health sector.

老实说，我们的卫生部门存在很多腐败现象。

There's a certain group of people that are trying, by all means, to ensure that the government facilities are not operating well so that we go and buy medication from their pharmacies.

有一群人千方百计地试图确保政府设施运转不良，以便我们去他们的药房购买药物。

Colani is talking about something that is well-documented, that a group of government officials have allegedly been colluding with drug suppliers and causing shortages in the country.

科拉尼正在谈论的事情有据可查，据称一群政府官员与药品供应商勾结，导致该国药品短缺。

The Eswatini government launched a big investigation a couple of years ago and found that officials were systematically buying drugs that were about to expire and getting kickbacks from the suppliers.

斯威士兰政府几年前发起了一项大规模调查，发现官员有系统地购买即将过期的药品，并从供应商那里获取回扣。

Then patients, they had to scramble to find drugs at pharmacies, paying for drugs that they should have gotten for free.

然后患者就不得不争先恐后地去药店寻找药物，为他们应该免费获得的药物付费。

The Ministry of Health declined to comment about all this.

卫生部拒绝对这一切发表评论。

And the reason we're going into all this detail is that it shows you one of the big ways US taxpayer dollars may have made things worse in Eswatini.

我们之所以要详细介绍所有这些细节，是因为它向您展示了美国纳税人的钱可能使斯威士兰的情况变得更糟的重要原因之一。

By building an alternative health system that worked really well, it made it easier for corruption to grow in the government system.

通过建立一个运行良好的替代卫生系统，政府系统中的腐败更容易滋生。

Harry and Echo have been thinking about that a lot in the last few months since the Luke Commission closed its gates.

自从卢克委员会关闭以来，哈利和艾科在过去的几个月里一直在思考这个问题。

Maybe they were part of the problem.

也许他们是问题的一部分。

And maybe all the help that we've been providing over these past years during COVID was actually doing more damage than good, allowing this monster to get fatter and fatter, because as we did more and more and more, the demand on the national health care system that ought to have been crumbling was becoming less and less.

也许我们过去几年在新冠疫情期间提供的所有帮助实际上弊大于利，让这个怪物变得越来越胖，因为随着我们做得越来越多，对本应崩溃的国家医疗保健系统的需求却变得越来越少。

And so the cries of people was not as much as it should have been to make the changes that should have happened long ago, because we were busy covering up, in some ways.

因此，人们的呼声并没有达到应有的程度，以做出早就应该发生的改变，因为我们在某些方面忙于掩盖。

By doing-- working so hard and doing good, we were covering up the evil that was actually happening under the national health care system.

通过努力工作和行善，我们掩盖了国家医疗保健系统下实际发生的罪恶。

Harry and Echo say a turning point came during COVID, when the Luke Commission handled so many of the critical care cases for the country.

哈利和埃科说，新冠疫情期间出现了一个转折点，当时卢克委员会处理了该国如此多的重症监护病例。

In the aftermath, with demand still rising, Harry and Echo took out a loan against their house and emptied their retirement savings to pay staff.

此后，由于需求仍在上升，哈利和埃科以房屋为抵押申请了贷款，并掏空了退休储蓄来支付员工工资。

They asked the Eswatini government to help cover the cost of treating so many patients and assumed that the money would come through at some point.

他们请求斯威士兰政府帮助支付治疗如此多患者的费用，并认为这笔钱会在某个时候到位。

I just wish we would have maybe been not as naive, I guess, or not as-- maybe made these changes a couple of years ahead or made some lines in the sand earlier, maybe.

我只是希望我们可能不会那么天真，我猜，或者不会像——也许提前几年做出这些改变，或者更早地做出一些决定，也许。

They never got the money.

他们从来没有拿到钱。

The health minister at the time says the government offered the Luke Commission annual guaranteed funding, but only if it had some oversight over how the money was spent.

当时的卫生部长表示，政府向卢克委员会提供年度保证资金，但前提是对资金的使用方式进行一定的监督。

Any government would probably ask for the same thing.

任何政府都可能会提出同样的要求。

In this case, she told me that Eswatini wanted to name the chairman of the Luke Commission's board as a way to oversee their operations.

在这种情况下，她告诉我，斯威士兰希望任命卢克委员会董事会主席，以监督他们的运作。

Harry and Echo say this was never actually proposed to them, but if it had been, they would have said no. From their point of view, that would be like a hostile takeover.

哈利和艾科说，这实际上从未向他们提出过，但如果是的话，他们也会拒绝。从他们的角度来看，这就像敌意收购。

Before long, they'd get booted out, the government would assume control, and the Luke Commission would become just another unreliable hospital in a system that can't stock its own drugs.

不久之后，他们就会被赶出去，政府将会接管控制权，而卢克委员会将成为一个无法储存自己药品的系统中另一家不可靠的医院。

The standoff between the two sides got so nasty that it became the basis of a 2024 parliamentary report to investigate the, quote, "bottlenecks and disharmony." One of the findings said senior health officials viewed Echo as, quote, "a difficult person to work with." Another finding?

双方之间的对峙变得如此严重，以至于成为 2024 年议会报告的基础，以调查“瓶颈和不和谐”。其中一项调查结果称，高级卫生官员认为埃科是“一个很难共事的人”。另一个发现？

Quote, "There are very senior individuals in government who are hell bent on blocking any assistance to the Luke Commission for their own selfish reasons that are contrary to the wellness of the sick, the weak, and the elderly in our country."

引用：“政府中有一些非常高级的人士出于自私的原因，一意孤行地阻止对卢克委员会的任何援助，这违背了我们国家病人、弱者和老年人的健康。”

Suffice to say, it's messy and unresolved.

可以说，这是混乱且未解决的。

These are the strange and unpredictable consequences of sending hundreds of millions of American dollars to Eswatini.

这些就是向斯威士兰输送数亿美元的奇怪且不可预测的后果。

These Christian do-gooders are now in a bitter fight against officials in the government of the people they came to help.

这些基督徒行善者现在正在与他们所要帮助的人民的政府官员进行激烈的斗争。

Meanwhile, HIV, the disease they came here to treat 20 years ago, it's much more under control now.

与此同时，艾滋病毒——20年前他们来这里治疗的疾病——现在已经得到了更好的控制。

And even Harry and Echo wonder why the United States is still in the HIV business here.

甚至哈利和艾科也想知道为什么美国仍然从事艾滋病毒行业。

Why are US taxpayers still paying such a big part of the bill for that?

为什么美国纳税人仍然为此支付如此大一部分费用？

We haven't transitioned-- just look at HIV.

我们还没有转变——看看艾滋病毒就知道了。

We have not transitioned like we should.

我们还没有像我们应该的那样进行转变。

This is an old disease.

这是一个老病了。

By now, we should have transitioned it to being locally supported so that global aid can prepare itself or ready itself for the next global pandemic or problem, whatever that is.

到目前为止，我们应该将其转变为本地支持，以便全球援助能够为下一次全球流行病或问题（无论是什么）做好准备。

We don't know.

我们不知道。

And for HIV, if that had happened, when would the transition have happened here?

对于艾滋病毒来说，如果这种情况发生了，那么这种转变什么时候会发生呢？

It probably should have happened five years ago.

这可能应该发生在五年前。

I think it should have happened before now.

我想这件事应该早就发生了。

And it could have.

它可能有。

It could have happened here, and it probably could have happened in other countries.

它可能发生在这里，也可能发生在其他国家。

For me, I think the challenge is, as Americans, too, we want to fix things.

对我来说，我认为挑战是，作为美国人，我们也想解决问题。

We want to run in and fix it.

我们想介入并修复它。

Sometimes we have to be careful on what's our exit strategy.

有时我们必须小心我们的退出策略。

How do we-- once we jump in, how do we get out?

一旦我们跳进去，我们如何退出？

Someone in Eswatini who's been thinking about how to transition away from foreign aid for over 20 years now is Dr. Velephi Okello, the director of Health Services in the Ministry of Health.

斯威士兰卫生部卫生服务部主任维莱菲·奥凯洛 (Velephi Okello) 博士二十多年来一直在思考如何摆脱外国援助。

She oversaw the long process of getting the government of Eswatini to pay for all of its adult antiretroviral drugs, something they've been doing for 10 years now.

她监督了让斯威士兰政府支付所有成人抗逆转录病毒药物费用的漫长过程，他们已经这样做了 10 年。

She was part of the team figuring out how things would work after PEPFAR.

她是研究“总统紧急救援计划”之后事情如何运作的团队的一员。

We thought that the PEPFAR funds would take us to 2030.

我们认为总统防治艾滋病紧急救援计划 (PEPFAR) 资金将带我们走向 2030 年。

2030.

2030年。

Velephi Okello And then we're able to slowly and gently offload some of the issues back to government.

Velephi Okello 然后我们就能够缓慢而温和地将一些问题转交给政府。

Then, in January, she heard that President Trump had suddenly halted the USAID money.

然后，在一月份，她听说特朗普总统突然停止了美国国际开发署的资助。

So when I saw it, I thought, ah, Trump is just doing his usual-- what do you call-- being a [LAUGHS] spontaneous kind of thinking, if I may put it like that.

所以当我看到它时，我想，啊，特朗普只是在做他平常的事情——你称之为什么——[笑]自发的思考，如果我可以这样说的话。

So I thought, what does this mean?

所以我想，这意味着什么？

And we consulted our colleagues from PEPFAR.

我们还咨询了总统防治艾滋病紧急救援计划（PEPFAR）的同事。

Then they told us, ah, no, this is real, and there's more coming.

然后他们告诉我们，啊，不，这是真的，而且还会有更多。

So we said, OK, fasten your seat belts.

所以我们说，好吧，系好安全带。

This is happening.

这正在发生。

What other rough ride are we going to have?

我们还将经历哪些艰难的旅程？

She sent a team of people out to assess the damage.

她派了一个团队出去评估损失情况。

Where exactly was all this PEPFAR money being used, and how much?

总统防治艾滋病紧急援助计划（PEPFAR）的资金到底用在哪里了？用了多少钱？

Her initial assessment is that the situation is not so bad.

她的初步判断是情况并没有那么糟糕。

Eswatini's been buying all its own antiretrovirals for adults for years, and they have enough pediatric antiretroviral drugs in the pipeline.

斯威士兰多年来一直在购买自己的成人抗逆转录病毒药物，并且正在准备足够的儿科抗逆转录病毒药物。

They know which lab reagents need funding quickly to keep testing people.

他们知道哪些实验室试剂需要快速资金来继续对人们进行检测。

She says 20 years of American aid has made Eswatini's health system stronger in ways that will persist.

她说，美国 20 年的援助使斯威士兰的卫生系统变得更加强大，并将持续下去。

It trained nurses and other medical staff, developed more effective ways to distribute antiretroviral drugs, just generally raised standards for care.

它培训了护士和其他医务人员，开发了更有效的方法来分发抗逆转录病毒药物，只是普遍提高了护理标准。

She sees the health system as fairly sturdy at this point, able to care for its own people.

她认为目前的卫生系统相当健全，能够照顾自己的人民。

I always say to people, our health system is like a-- let me say a Toyota.

我总是对人们说，我们的医疗系统就像一辆丰田汽车。

[CHUCKLES] We are using a model that is basic, basic health service delivery model.

[咯咯笑]我们使用的模型是基本的、基本的医疗服务提供模型。

It's moving and maybe not so comfortable, but it gets you there.

它很移动，也许不太舒服，但它可以带你到达目的地。

So when PEPFAR came, we always say that they took us from that basic Toyota into some kind of Mercedes Benz or Rolls-Royce, which now made sure that our quality of services is great.

因此，当总统防治艾滋病紧急救援计划到来时，我们总是说他们把我们从普通的丰田汽车带到了某种梅赛德斯奔驰或劳斯莱斯，这确保了我们的服务质量非常好。

And we are moving faster in achieving the targets that we had aimed to achieve.

我们正在更快地实现我们的目标。

The Mercedes is gone now, but she thinks they'll still get to where they need to go.

梅赛德斯现在已经开走了，但她认为他们仍然会到达他们需要去的地方。

Dr. Okello, of course, works for the government.

当然，奥凯洛博士为政府工作。

A UNAIDS assessment that came out recently-- not so rosy.

联合国艾滋病规划署最近发布的一项评估结果并不那么乐观。

It said there is a risk of running out of antiretroviral drugs and other supplies in three to six months in Eswatini.

据称，斯威士兰的抗逆转录病毒药物和其他物资有可能在三到六个月内耗尽。

And while Eswatini does pay for its own antiretrovirals, it takes a lot more than drugs to combat HIV.

尽管斯威士兰确实支付自己的抗逆转录病毒药物费用，但对抗艾滋病毒需要的不仅仅是药物。

It's a chronic illness where so much of the work involves constant monitoring for new cases and maintaining a network of clinics and community health workers.

这是一种慢性疾病，大量工作涉及对新病例的持续监测以及维持诊所和社区卫生工作者网络。

So people have the drugs they need and are taking them every day.

因此，人们拥有所需的药物，并且每天都在服用。

In Eswatini, lots of that work was still paid for by foreign money, mostly American.

在斯威士兰，许多工作仍然是由外国资金支付的，其中大部分是美国资金。

Some PEPFAR funding may survive.

部分总统紧急救援计划（PEPFAR）资金可能会继续存在。

They're debating that right now on Capitol Hill.

他们现在正在国会山对此进行辩论。

But even if nothing is restored, Eswatini is in a better position than most PEPFAR countries in Africa to take over that work.

但即使什么都没有恢复，斯威士兰也比非洲大多数总统紧急救援计划国家更有能力接手这项工作。

It has a bunch of advantages.

它有很多优点。

It's small.

它很小。

It has a fair amount of money.

它有相当数量的钱。

And it's done a good job to mobilize and control HIV as a national priority for decades.

几十年来，它在动员和控制艾滋病毒作为国家优先事项方面做得很好。

One of the people who originally created PEPFAR told us, out of the 50 PEPFAR countries worldwide, maybe a dozen are ready to move off the program's money fairly quickly.

最初创建“总统紧急救援计划”的一位人士告诉我们，在全球 50 个“总统紧急救援计划”国家中，可能有十几个国家已准备好相当快地移走该计划的资金。

And Eswatini is one of them.

斯威士兰就是其中之一。

He also told us, PEPFAR was never intended to last this long.

他还告诉我们，总统防治艾滋病紧急救援计划从来没有打算持续这么久。

The conversations about how to wind down had already started in the Bush years, but nobody carried them through.

关于如何放松心情的讨论早在布什执政时期就已开始，但没有人将其贯彻到底。

Once a big bureaucracy took shape around this money in the US and abroad, there wasn't much momentum to uproot everything.

一旦在美国和国外围绕这笔钱形成了一个庞大的官僚机构，就没有太大的动力来根除一切。

That is, of course, until now.

当然，到目前为止。

Chico Harlan is a reporter at The Washington Post.

奇科·哈兰是《华盛顿邮报》的记者。

He also did a great print version of this story.

他还为这个故事制作了很棒的印刷版。

Diane Wu is one of the producers of our show.

吴黛安是我们节目的制作人之一。

By the way, since they visited, the Luke Commission has opened up its gates again, at a much smaller scale.

顺便说一下，自从他们来访之后，路加福音委员会又再次敞开了大门，只不过规模小了很多。

To pay for that, they're charging for their services for the first time.

为了支付这笔费用，他们首次对服务收费。

So how bad is this going to be, the US pulling back from all this humanitarian aid?

那么，如果美国撤回所有人道主义援助，情况会有多糟糕呢？

Well, in March, a USAID employee made a memo public on his way out the door, where the agency estimated that there would be 200,000 more children paralyzed with polio each year, 18 million extra cases of malaria each year.

今年 3 月份，美国国际开发署的一名员工在离职时公开了一份备忘录，该机构估计，每年将有 20 万名因脊髓灰质炎而瘫痪的儿童，每年将有 1800 万例疟疾病例。

Secretary of State Marco Rubio has said that nobody's died as a result of the freeze on USAID.

美国国务卿马可·卢比奥表示，没有人因美国国际开发署的冻结而死亡。

That seems not to be true.

这似乎不是真的。

Reporters have found examples-- real people.

记者找到了例子——真实的人。

But how many people are likely to die?

但有多少人可能会死亡？

There are different estimates.

有不同的估计。

The most thorough one we found was done by the Center for Global Development.

我们发现最彻底的一项是由全球发展中心完成的。

My coworker, David Kestenbaum, talked with Charles Kenny, who worked on some of the modeling.

我的同事 David Kestenbaum 与负责部分建模的 Charles Kenny 进行了交谈。

Kenny said that some of the first deaths likely to show up would be from the thing we've been talking about, cuts to HIV programs.

肯尼说，最先出现的一些死亡可能是由于我们一直在谈论的事情，即艾滋病毒项目的削减。

We have a pretty good knowledge of how many people and how quickly die-- how quickly they die, if you take them off antiretroviral medications.

我们非常清楚有多少人死亡以及死亡的速度有多快——如果你停止使用抗逆转录病毒药物，他们的死亡速度有多快。

So they went through the actual contracts that got cut in the government database and found that about 18% of the money for these programs had been eliminated.

因此，他们查看了政府数据库中被削减的实际合同，发现这些项目的资金大约有 18% 被取消了。

And they ran the numbers.

他们计算了数字。

The modeled estimate is that 200,000 or so people will die due to the cuts to awards this year.

据模型估计，今年约有 20 万人将因奖项削减而死亡。

He says it is possible that individual countries' governments will step in, at least to some extent.

他表示，个别国家的政府可能会介入，至少在某种程度上。

But because of the abruptness of the cuts, the way the United States just froze funding when President Trump came in, without giving countries time to prepare and take over those health services, he says, there's no way that's going to happen fast enough.

但他表示，由于削减的突然性，以及特朗普总统上任时美国冻结资金的方式，没有给各国时间准备和接管这些医疗服务，所以这种情况不可能发生得足够快。

While I think it is probably fair to say that 200,000 estimate isn't going to be true in the long-term, in the short-term, I think it's probably horribly close to true.

虽然我认为可以公平地说，200,000 的估计从长远来看并不真实，但从短期来看，我认为它可能非常接近真实。

And that's just from HIV programs.

这还只是来自艾滋病毒项目。

There were cuts to malaria prevention, tuberculosis, childhood vaccines.

疟疾预防、肺结核、儿童疫苗的支出都被削减。

Adding it all up, Kenny says it could be over a half million deaths each year.

肯尼说，加起来，每年可能有超过 50 万人死亡。

It's really depressing because you can see the trends in HIV deaths and malaria deaths, and they were going down.

这确实令人沮丧，因为你可以看到艾滋病毒死亡和疟疾死亡的趋势，而且它们正在下降。

They were dramatically down.

他们的业绩急剧下滑。

And that is an amazing effort.

这是一项了不起的努力。

And the US is leading it.

美国在这方面处于领先地位。

And that does make all of this more tragic.

这确实让这一切变得更加悲惨。

It's easier to think of them as just numbers, eh?

将它们视为数字更容易，是吗？

[CRYING]

[哭泣]

Are you crying now?

你现在哭了吗？

Sorry.

对不起。

Charles Kenny Yes, I am.

查尔斯·肯尼 是的，我是。

[BREATHES DEEPLY] I'm sorry.

[深呼吸]对不起。

Charles Kenny No, no. It is a completely legitimate question.

查尔斯·肯尼 不，不。这是一个完全合理的问题。

Whether or not you think the United States should stay in the business of doing things like providing HIV drugs around the world, the way it suddenly stopped in January--without warning, without giving countries time to take over those services-- has had such a profound impact that it's hard not to wonder: Did anybody consider the cost in human lives of doing it this way?

无论你是否认为美国应该继续从事像向世界各地提供艾滋病毒药物这样的事情，它在一月份突然停止的方式——没有警告，没有给各国时间来接管这些服务——已经产生了如此深远的影响，以至于很难不让人怀疑：有人考虑过这样做会造成人类生命的代价吗？

If they did, why is this the path they chose?

如果他们这样做了，为什么他们选择这条路？

Or did they not care enough to even ask the question?

或者他们根本就没有关心到问这个问题？

We asked for an interview with anybody at the State Department or the White House who could explain why it was done this way, and they turned us down.

我们要求采访国务院或白宫的任何人，他们可以解释为什么这样做，但他们拒绝了我们。

When a few producers on our staff called around, in country after country, we kept finding people who told us about major disruptions in service.

当我们的工作人员中的一些生产商在一个又一个国家打电话时，我们不断找到告诉我们服务严重中断的人。

One researcher, Susan Hillis, has been asking people to record voice memos about what they're experiencing.

一位名叫苏珊·希利斯 (Susan Hillis) 的研究人员一直要求人们录制有关他们所经历的事情的语音备忘录。

She got this one from a man named Jay, somebody who took antiretroviral drugs every day.

她从一个名叫杰伊的男人那里得到了这个，他每天都服用抗逆转录病毒药物。

He's a student, a tour guide.

他是一名学生，一名导游。

He recorded this at home one night.

一天晚上，他在家里录下了这一幕。

Hi, I'm Jay.

嗨，我是杰伊。

I'm turning 24 this June, and I live in Mombasa.

今年六月我就满 24 岁了，我住在蒙巴萨。

I have been taking the medication my whole life.

我一生都在服药。

I felt like it was really hard for me when the funding was stopped, and I went to the hospital and I couldn't find medicine.

我觉得资助停止了，我真的很难受，我去医院也找不到药。

So I would go, be told come next week, come next week, and I wouldn't find medicine.

所以我会去，被告知下周来，下周来，但我找不到药。

And I started getting this boils on my hand and legs and all over the body.

我的手、腿和全身开始长出疖子。

So I started hiding out, and I wouldn't go to school.

于是我开始躲起来，不去上学。

I started staying at home because I didn't want to be seen with the boils, the black spots that are still on my skin.

我开始呆在家里，因为我不想让别人看到我皮肤上仍然有疖子和黑点。

I have to wear long sleeves, and Mombasa is very hot.

我必须穿长袖，蒙巴萨很热。

I just hope they can be changed on that because personally, I've really suffered physically, mentally, and emotionally.

我只是希望他们能够改变这一点，因为就我个人而言，我在身体、精神和情感上都受到了很大的痛苦。

Ike Sriskandarajah is one of the producers on our staff who called around to health workers scrambling in the wake of USAID cuts.

艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾 (Ike Sriskandarajah) 是我们工作人员中的制作人之一，他向因美国国际开发署削减开支而手忙脚乱的卫生工作者打电话。

He has this last story of people dealing with the abrupt cutoff of aid.

他讲了最后一个关于人们应对援助突然中断的故事。

That's Act Three, Two Daughters.

这是第三幕，两个女儿。

While reporting this show, I heard many stories about chaos and confusion.

在报道这个节目时，我听到了很多关于混乱和困惑的故事。

But there were these two mothers and their daughters that I read about in a Washington Post story that really stuck with me.

但我在《华盛顿邮报》的一篇报道中读到的这两位母亲和她们的女儿，让我印象深刻。

And I wanted to know how it's been going for them since.

我想知道从那以后他们的情况如何。

The first daughter, we'll call Sarah to protect her privacy.

第一个女儿，我们会打电话给莎拉以保护她的隐私。

She's 15 and goes to a boarding school in western Kenya.

她今年 15 岁，就读于肯尼亚西部的一所寄宿学校。

She used to get her daily HIV tablets through a USAID-funded program, but they've been harder to find since the cuts.

她曾经通过美国国际开发署资助的项目获得日常艾滋病毒药片，但自从削减开支后，就更难找到它们了。

It's really terrifying.

实在是太可怕了。

Medicine is a problem.

医学是个问题。

I'm so worried because, now, accessing the medicine is a challenge.

我很担心，因为现在获得药物是一个挑战。

We have rumors that they are going to be selling at $500.

有传言称它们的售价将为 500 美元。

I cannot afford the money.

我付不起钱。

My stepmom can't afford right now.

我的继母现在买不起。

So it's only that it means that we are going to die.

所以这只是意味着我们会死。

We are going to die without the medicine.

没有药物我们就会死。

In the paper, she said one of her classmates was waking up screaming.

她在报纸上说，她的一名同学尖叫着醒来。

Sarah said, mostly, she would just lie in bed, awake.

莎拉说，大多数情况下，她都会醒着躺在床上。

When I called, she was down to two weeks of her medication.

当我打电话时，她的药物只剩下两周了。

She was hoping her mother could find some and send them to her.

她希望她的母亲能找到一些并寄给她。

So I called her mom.

于是我就打电话给她妈妈。

And Sarah did not mention this, but her mother is a relentless force of nature when it comes to helping people with HIV.

莎拉没有提到这一点，但她的母亲在帮助艾滋病毒感染者方面是一股不屈不挠的自然力量。

When I called, she was out on the street, trying to get the police to release an HIV-positive woman who they'd just arrested.

当我打电话时，她正在街上，试图让警察释放一名他们刚刚逮捕的艾滋病毒呈阳性的妇女。

Yeah, I'm beside the police station.

是的，我在警察局旁边。

I'm trying to negotiate because one of them has to have medication today.

我正在尝试谈判，因为其中一人今天必须吃药。

So the time is up.

所以时间到了。

I'm trying to speak with the officer in charge so that she can be released.

我正在尝试与负责的官员交谈，以便让她获释。

That is the thing.

就是这样。

But we can talk.

但我们可以谈谈。

Mary used to have a USAID-funded job at a clinic that paid her to do this work.

玛丽曾经在一家诊所从事由美国国际开发署资助的工作，并支付她做这项工作的报酬。

Her paychecks ended in January, but she never punched out.

她的薪水在一月份就结束了，但她从未退出过。

It seems like she is everybody's emergency contact.

看来她是每个人的紧急联系人。

I cannot switch off my phone at night because they usually call a lot, a lot.

我晚上不能关掉手机，因为他们通常打电话很多很多。

I did voluntary because it is my passion.

我自愿这样做，因为这是我的热情。

And that's the reason why sometimes you find me, I have 20 kids.

这就是为什么有时你会找到我，我有 20 个孩子。

I have 15 kids.

我有 15 个孩子。

She's basically running a DIY orphanage out of her own apartment.

她基本上是在自己的公寓里DIY经营一家孤儿院。

She's taking care of 10 right now.

她现在正在照顾10个人。

I don't want them to suffer the way I suffer.

我不想让他们像我一样受苦。

They suffer.

他们受苦。

They really suffer.

他们真的很痛苦。

I'm not Mary, Mother of Jesus, but Mary.

我不是耶稣的母亲玛丽，而是玛丽。

I don't want to see other people suffering.

我不想看到其他人受苦。

She promised Sarah's mom that if anything happened to her, she would take care of her daughter.

她向莎拉的妈妈保证，如果她出了什么事，她会照顾她的女儿。

Then Sarah's mom was murdered.

然后莎拉的妈妈被谋杀了。

Mary keeps her word.

玛丽信守诺言。

So while Sarah was away at school, running out of medication, Mary was on it.

因此，当莎拉不在学校、药物用完时，玛丽就在服用药物。

She did the stuff you do when normal systems are broken.

她做了你在正常系统被破坏时所做的事情。

She worked her contacts, showed up at four different clinics.

她联系了她的联系人，去了四家不同的诊所。

She found a friend who was willing to slip her a month's supply under the table.

她找到了一个朋友，愿意把一个月的供应量藏在桌子底下。

Then when Mary told that same friend that Sarah was sharing her meds with another girl at school who ran out, she was able to get a two-month supply.

然后，当玛丽告诉那位朋友，莎拉正在与学校里的另一个女孩分享她的药物，而她的药物已经用完时，她得到了两个月的供应量。

So Sarah is set, for now.

所以莎拉现在已经准备好了。

The other daughter I want to tell you about is Nyakewo.

我想告诉你的另一个女儿是尼亚克沃。

In The Washington Post story, Nyakewo told her mom, if she dies, her mom won't have to worry about feeding her.

在《华盛顿邮报》的报道中，尼亚克沃告诉她的妈妈，如果她死了，她的妈妈就不用担心养活她了。

That was hard for Florence to hear.

这话对弗洛伦斯来说很难听。

Both Florence and her daughter were HIV-positive.

弗洛伦斯和她的女儿都是艾滋病毒阳性。

Florence had transmitted HIV to her daughter at birth.

弗洛伦斯在她女儿出生时就将艾滋病毒传染给了她。

When I reached her on the phone, she told me they were able to get their daily HIV pills.

当我通过电话联系到她时，她告诉我他们可以获得每日的艾滋病毒药物。

But the challenge came when Nyakewo got pregnant.

但当尼亚克沃怀孕时，挑战来了。

They went searching for the drug that prevents the transmission of the virus from mother to child.

他们开始寻找防止病毒母婴传播的药物。

(SUBJECT) FLOREN I tried so much.

（主题）弗洛伦 我尝试了很多。

I tried visiting different clinics.

我尝试去不同的诊所。

Four.

四。

Ike Sriskandarajah Four.

艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾 四。

And they were all out of this medication?

他们都用完了这种药物吗？

I talked to one person who explained why.

我和一个人交谈过，他解释了原因。

Apparently, the USAID-funded digital record system that a lot of clinics used had gone down.

显然，许多诊所使用的美国国际开发署资助的数字记录系统已经瘫痪。

When that platform went down, health workers couldn't make new drug orders or tell if they had enough medicine for all their patients.

当该平台瘫痪时，卫生工作者无法发出新的药品订单，也无法判断他们是否有足够的药品供所有患者使用。

So clinics started turning new patients away.

因此诊所开始拒绝新病人。

Then Nyakewo fell deeper into depression.

随后尼亚克沃陷入了更深的抑郁之中。

The father of the baby made her feel even worse.

孩子的父亲让她感觉更糟糕。

The man said that she cannot give birth to a sick child because there is no medicine.

男人说，她不能生出有病的孩子，因为没有药。

And my daughter was there, trying to get rid of the child.

我女儿也在场，试图摆脱这个孩子。

Now, instead of getting rid, she decided to commit suicide.

现在，她没有摆脱束缚，而是决定自杀。

And it was not the first time for her to try to commit suicide.

而这并不是她第一次尝试自杀。

It was the third time.

这是第三次了。

Nyakewo died by suicide on May 1.

尼亚克沃于 5 月 1 日自杀身亡。

She was 22 years old and three months pregnant.

她当时22岁，怀孕三个月。

All three suicide attempts happened after USAID stopped so suddenly with no warning or back-up plans.

这三起自杀事件都发生在美国国际开发署突然停止行动、没有任何警告或后备计划之后。

Florence believes if her daughter had the HIV meds she needed to keep herself and her baby healthy, she'd still be alive.

弗洛伦斯相信，如果她的女儿服用了保持自己和孩子健康所需的艾滋病毒药物，她仍然会活着。

Ike Sriskandarajah.

艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾。

Katharine Houreld wrote the story where we first heard about Mary and Florence in The Washington Post.

凯瑟琳·乌雷尔德（Katharine Houreld）在《华盛顿邮报》上写了我们第一次听说玛丽和弗洛伦斯的故事。

Well, our program was produced today by Ike Sriskandarajah and edited by David Kestenbaum.

嗯，我们今天的节目由 Ike Sriskandarajah 制作，由 David Kestenbaum 编辑。

The people who put together today's show include Phia Bennin, Jendayi Bonds, Mike Comite, Emmanuel Dzotsi, Audrey Fromson, Angela Gervasi, Miki Meek, Katherine Rae Mando, Stowe Nelson, Ryan Rumery, Lilly Sullivan, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, and Julie Whitaker.

今天节目的制作人包括 Phia Bennin、Jendayi Bonds、Mike Comite、Emmanuel Dzotsi、Audrey Fromson、Angela Gervasi、Miki Meek、Katherine Rae Mando、Stowe Nelson、Ryan Rumery、Lilly Sullivan、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala 和 Julie Whitaker。

Our managing editor is Sara Abdurrahman.

我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sara Abdurrahman)。

Emanuele Berry is our executive editor.

埃马努埃莱·贝里 (Emanuele Berry) 是我们的执行编辑。

Special thanks today to Oscar Rickett, Nicholas Kristof, Gabrielle Emanuel, Harerimana Ismail, Wendy Benzerga, Mark Dybul, Chris Makwindi, Sister Barbara Staley, Safiyah Riddle, and Lilian Lee.

今天特别感谢 Oscar Rickett、Nicholas Kristof、Gabrielle Emanuel、Harerimana Ismail、Wendy Benzerga、Mark Dybul、Chris Makwindi、Sister Barbara Staley、Safiyah Riddle 和 Lilian Lee。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 850 episodes for absolutely free.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 850 多集档案。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

Torey knows all the tricks of hard-hitting professional journalism-- who, what, where, when?

托里知道强硬的专业新闻的所有技巧——谁、什么、在哪里、什么时候？

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。