859: Chaos Graph - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #859 | April 25, 2025 859: Chaos Graph Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 859 集 | 2025 年 4 月 25 日 859：混沌图 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而生，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Chana Joffe-Walt It's This American Life.
序言：序言 查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 这就是美国生活。
I'm Chana Joffe-Walt, sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt)，代理艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
I've been talking to someone here and there over the last couple of months about a situation she's in.
在过去的几个月里，我一直在和一些人谈论她所处的情况。
And I think she typifies the thing we're going to try to do in this episode, so I'd like you to meet her.
我认为她代表了我们在这一集中要做的事情，所以我想让你认识一下她。
Her name is Annika Barber.
她的名字叫安妮卡·巴伯。
She's a scientist, a molecular biologist at Rutgers University, a runner.
她是一名科学家、罗格斯大学的分子生物学家、一名跑步者。
She's got purple hair and a particular way of organizing the world around her-- her books, organized topically and then by height, her lab, color-coded labels.
她有一头紫色的头发，并以一种特殊的方式组织她周围的世界——她的书，按主题组织，然后按身高组织，她的实验室，颜色编码的标签。
I also track how many days of the year my husband eats pizza, and I make a chart of it.
我还记录了我丈夫一年中有多少天吃披萨，并制作了一个图表。
He's really into pizza.
他真的很喜欢披萨。
So sometimes I just like to have data.
所以有时候我只是喜欢有数据。
Wait, wait, wait, why?
等等，等等，为什么？
Why do you do that?
你为什么这么做？
So my husband really can't go 24 hours without talking about pizza.
所以我丈夫真的不能24小时不谈论披萨。
So last year, I accused him of talking about pizza every day, and he swore he didn't.
所以去年，我指责他每天都谈论披萨，他发誓他没有。
And I was like, I really think you do.
我当时想，我真的认为你是这样的。
And so starting in January of this year, I said that for 2025, I was going to log every day that I heard him say the word pizza, as well as every time he ate pizza for the year.
因此，从今年 1 月开始，我说从 2025 年开始，我要记录每天听到他说“披萨”这个词的每一天，以及这一年他每次吃披萨的时间。
He actually eats less pizza than I would expect for the amount he talks about pizza.
事实上，他吃的披萨比我想象的要少，因为他谈论披萨的量。
Like, the consumption to discussion ratio is not what I expected it would be.
比如，消费与讨论的比例并不像我预期的那样。
He's only had pizza 14 times this year.
他今年只吃过 14 次披萨。
Lately, Annika has been trying to get her mind around a new situation that is deeply confusing for her and lots of people.
最近，安妮卡一直在努力理清一个让她和很多人深感困惑的新情况。
She's tracking scientific meetings that are not happening.
她正在跟踪未举行的科学会议。
When President Trump was inaugurated, he put a freeze on research grants.
特朗普总统就职后，冻结了研究经费。
This meant the meetings where scientists like Annika get together at the National Institutes of Health to assess new research-- they're called NIH study sections-- those meetings were off.
这意味着像安妮卡这样的科学家聚集在美国国立卫生研究院评估新研究的会议——它们被称为美国国立卫生研究院研究部门——这些会议都取消了。
But then, a judge said the administration couldn't pause all research grants, so the meetings were theoretically back on.
但随后，一名法官表示，政府无法暂停所有研究拨款，因此理论上会议又恢复了。
They were listed on an NIH website as scheduled, but Annika says they did not seem to be happening.
它们按计划列在美国国立卫生研究院的网站上，但安妮卡说它们似乎没有发生。
The website showed they were, but scientists were saying they weren't.
该网站显示它们是，但科学家们说它们不是。
Scientists who had submitted grants literally had no idea if their grant had been reviewed and moved on to the next step of the funding process.
提交资助的科学家实际上不知道他们的资助是否已经过审查并进入资助流程的下一步。
But Annika learned there was a place you could get a way better picture of whether a meeting was going to happen or had already happened.
但安妮卡了解到，有一个地方可以更好地了解会议是否即将举行或已经举行。
I had never even heard of the federal register in my American tax-paying, voting life.
在我的美国纳税和投票生活中，我什至从未听说过联邦登记册。
The federal register is where all notices of open public meetings that may be happening in the federal government are required to be posted.
联邦登记册是联邦政府可能举行的所有公开会议通知都必须张贴的地方。
And for some reason, NIH study sections do have to be posted to the federal register at least 15 days before they meet.
由于某种原因，NIH 研究部门必须在会议召开前至少 15 天将其发布到联邦登记册上。
And if they're not posted to the federal register, they cannot meet.
如果他们没有被登记在联邦登记册上，他们就无法见面。
It's a strange feeling knowing you're in the middle of an upending, knowing that something fundamental to the way that you live is changing, but you can't understand or see the scale of change as it's happening.
知道自己正处于颠覆之中，知道自己生活方式的一些根本性因素正在发生变化，但却无法理解或看到正在发生的变化的规模，这是一种奇怪的感觉。
You just can't.
你就是不能。
You have to wait.
你必须等待。
What I like about Annika is she rejects this.
我喜欢安妮卡的一点是她拒绝了这一点。
She is not waiting.
她没有等待。
Annika immediately begins scraping data from federal websites, finding all the meetings that were supposed to happen, cross-referencing them with the federal register, reaching out to scientists to see if the supposedly-scheduled meetings did, in fact, occur, compiled all that into a Google spreadsheet, and posted it online.
安妮卡立即开始从联邦网站上抓取数据，找到所有应该举行的会议，将它们与联邦登记册进行交叉引用，联系科学家以了解所谓预定的会议是否确实发生，将所有这些数据编译到谷歌电子表格中，并将其发布到网上。
Anxious and confused scientists all over America began consulting Annika's spreadsheet and passing it around to see is my study section actually happening?
美国各地焦虑而困惑的科学家开始查阅安妮卡的电子表格并将其传递出去，看看我的研究部分是否真的发生了？
Has my grant been reviewed?
我的补助金经过审核了吗？
Is there any point in submitting my next grant?
提交下一笔资助有什么意义吗？
Will I be able to keep my lab open?
我的实验室能够保持开放吗？
There are tens of thousands of scientists whose grants depend on this happening who are all wondering what's going on?
数以万计的科学家的资助依赖于这种情况的发生，他们都想知道发生了什么？
So let's see.
那么让我们看看。
Right now, we are at 182 meetings that have not happened.
目前，我们有 182 场会议尚未举行。
You know, if we assume roughly 100 grants would have gotten reviewed at each meeting, we're talking about at least 18,000 grants that didn't get reviewed.
您知道，如果我们假设每次会议都会审查大约 100 项拨款，那么我们谈论的是至少 18,000 项拨款未得到审查。
Wow.
哇。
Annika Barber And that's 18,000 grants across all kinds of things-- I mean, very basic science.
Annika Barber：这是 18,000 笔资助，涉及各种领域——我的意思是，非常基础的科学。
Just scrolling through here, I've got things like adaptive immunity and bacterial virulence.
只是滚动到这里，我得到了诸如适应性免疫和细菌毒力之类的东西。
But then we also have things like addiction risk, and learning and memory and decision making, and therapeutic immune regulation.
但我们也有成瘾风险、学习、记忆、决策以及治疗性免疫调节等问题。
We have training neuroscientists and physician scientists.
我们有训练有素的神经科学家和医师科学家。
And we have studies looking at dentistry and eye diseases, and those aren't meeting.
我们有针对牙科和眼科疾病的研究，但这些研究并不一致。
For five weeks, there were no NIH study sections, till it was 205 study sections that did not meet.
五个星期以来，NIH 没有任何研究部门，直到 205 个研究部门没有开会。
All of those proposals sat waiting, and all the ones that came after, stacking up behind them, a long traffic jam of uncertainty and science not happening.
所有这些提案都在等待，所有随后提出的提案都堆积在它们身后，造成了一场由不确定性和科学造成的长期交通堵塞。
And then, in March, a meeting appeared on the federal register, an NIH study section, and then another, and another.
然后，三月份，联邦登记册上出现了一次会议，NIH 的一个研究部分，然后又是一次，又是一次。
Now, the meetings to assess new research grants seem to have mostly picked back up.
现在，评估新研究经费的会议似乎已大部分恢复。
Scientists are doing peer reviews, but it's not clear if the government will actually cough up the money.
科学家们正在进行同行评审，但尚不清楚政府是否真的会掏出这笔钱。
And a few of the grant proposals that were supposed to be reviewed at these meetings, they're being quietly disappeared from the lists.
一些本应在这些会议上审查的拨款提案正在悄然从名单中消失。
They're not being reviewed at all.
他们根本没有受到审查。
They seem to be the grants with DEI words or other thought crimes in them that are no longer allowed.
它们似乎是带有 DEI 词语或其他思想犯罪的补助金，不再被允许。
It's unclear if the scientists who submitted these grants even know that their proposals have been dropped.
目前尚不清楚提交这些资助的科学家是否知道他们的提案已被放弃。
Annika went to a meeting herself.
安妮卡自己去参加一个会议。
It was two months late, pulled together at the very last minute, but it did happen.
虽然晚了两个月，但在最后一刻才齐心协力，但它确实发生了。
We all made the time, and people were there, and people gave the same quality of review that I have always experienced in these meetings, and the same level of scientific discussion.
我们都挤出了时间，人们都在场，人们给出了与我在这些会议中一直经历过的相同质量的审查，以及相同水平的科学讨论。
But it felt so weird to be having these scientific discussions in this climate where you could only wonder, like, yeah, we have all these amazing scientists in this room reviewing the future of the next five years of research in the areas of molecular neurogenetics.
但在这种氛围下进行这些科学讨论感觉很奇怪，你只能想，是的，我们所有这些了不起的科学家在这个房间里回顾分子神经遗传学领域未来五年研究的未来。
But is any of this going to be funded?
但这些都会得到资助吗？
Are any of these studies going to go forward?
这些研究是否会继续进行？
Is the NIH going to give these people any money?
NIH 会给这些人钱吗？
No, no. Every grant gets 15 minutes for discussion, and we needed to get through 50-odd grants, so there's no time to think about anything else.
不，不。每项拨款都有 15 分钟的讨论时间，而我们需要完成 50 多项拨款，所以没有时间考虑其他事情。
So will that stuff that you reviewed get funded?
那么你评论过的那些东西会得到资助吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Chana Joffe-Walt Was there a part of you that felt like, are we chumps?
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特（Chana Joffe-Walt）你内心是否有过这样的感觉：我们是傻瓜吗？
Are we just like--
我们是否就像——
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
It feels like we're fiddling while Rome burns, talking about some cool genes, and worms, and mice, and all the interesting genome-wide association studies that we could do if money keeps existing.
感觉就像罗马在燃烧时我们正在摆弄，谈论一些很酷的基因、蠕虫和老鼠，以及如果钱继续存在我们可以做的所有有趣的全基因组关联研究。
Uh huh.
嗯嗯。
Annika Barber And yeah, are we chumps?
安妮卡·巴伯 是的，我们是傻瓜吗？
Are we participating in furthering something or nothing?
我们是否参与推动某些事情或什么也不参与？
Are we just wasting our time?
我们只是在浪费时间吗？
The thing that is killing her is not knowing the shape of the new normal.
让她丧命的是不了解新常态的形态。
How many grants will now be funded compared to before-- half, a quarter?
与以前相比，现在将提供多少赠款——一半、四分之一？
Which scientists will get funding?
哪些科学家将获得资助？
What kind of research?
什么样的研究？
There's no data she can turn to that will tell her that.
她没有任何数据可以告诉她这一点。
And so I need the data of how bad is it?
所以我需要有关情况有多糟糕的数据？
I think a lot of us are used to approaching problems as something that we can, not necessarily solve with data, but that we can find the edges of with data--
我认为我们很多人习惯于将问题视为我们可以解决的问题，不一定用数据来解决，但我们可以用数据找到边缘——
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Annika Barber --and get our arms around the problem, and define the problem by figuring out what the data are and what the--
Annika Barber——解决问题，通过弄清楚数据是什么以及数据是什么来定义问题——
But it might be possible that that's not going to happen in this case, that there might not be--
但在这种情况下，这种情况可能不会发生，可能不会——
That does say-- yeah, I'm starting to get that vibe.
这确实说明了——是的，我开始感受到那种氛围了。
Yeah, it becomes one of those things where can you graph chaos?
是的，它成为你可以在哪里绘制混乱的东西之一？
Maybe not.
也许不是。
Can you feel better trying to graph chaos?
尝试绘制混乱图你会感觉更好吗？
Also maybe not.
也可能不是。
Will she continued to try to graph the chaos?
她会继续尝试绘制混乱的图表吗？
Yes, she will.
是的，她会的。
Today's show is full of people who do not wait for the chaos to settle, people who run toward it, who will take whatever little data they have available to them and try to make it make sense.
今天的节目充满了不等待混乱平息的人，那些奔向混乱的人，他们会利用他们所掌握的任何小数据并试图使其有意义。
These are people who get answers.
这些人是能得到答案的人。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
The questions people are trying to answer in today's episode, they are basic-- where and why?
人们在今天的节目中试图回答的问题都很基本——在哪里以及为什么？
Act One-- Solve for Why.
第一幕——找出原因。
One of the hardest places to see through chaos in the middle of a war-- fog of war, all that.
战争中最难看清混乱的地方之一——战争迷雾等等。
This is especially true for the war in Gaza.
加沙战争尤其如此。
There is very limited information moving in and out of Gaza.
进出加沙的信息非常有限。
Israel has banned international press from entering the strip for nearly 18 months, except for a few brief trips, accompanied by and under the control of the Israeli military.
近 18 个月以来，以色列禁止国际媒体进入该地带，只有几次短暂的旅行是在以色列军方的陪同和控制下进行的。
One rare outside group has gotten a view on the ground of Gaza-- medical workers.
一个罕见的外部团体了解了加沙的情况——医务人员。
Since the start of the war, over 100 American doctors and nurses have traveled to Gaza, treated patients there for weeks at a time, and come back out.
自战争爆发以来，已有 100 多名美国医生和护士前往加沙，一次在那里治疗病人数周，然后又返回。
Producer Ike Sriskandarajah talked to a dozen of them who volunteered there.
制片人艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾 (Ike Sriskandarajah) 与十几位在那里做志愿者的人进行了交谈。
Dr. Mark Perlmutter had been on about 40 medical missions all over the developing world before he went to Gaza.
马克·珀尔穆特 (Mark Perlmutter) 医生在前往加沙之前，曾在发展中国家执行过约 40 次医疗任务。
He's a white guy, almost 70, a hand surgeon in rural North Carolina when he's not doing humanitarian work.
他是一名白人，快 70 岁了，业余时间是北卡罗来纳州乡村的一名手外科医生。
And when he found out patients in Gaza needed an orthopedic specialist like himself, he signed up and flew there in March of 2024.
当他发现加沙的患者需要像他这样的骨科专家时，他报名并于 2024 年 3 月飞往那里。
He'd worked in some pretty violent places, but never an active war zone, and only knew the basics about the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.
他曾在一些相当暴力的地方工作过，但从未在活跃的战区工作过，只了解以色列人和巴勒斯坦人之间冲突的基本情况。
I went there, only because my twist is to operate on kids who are hurt.
我去那里只是因为我的转折点是为受伤的孩子做手术。
And I knew that Gaza was 50% kids, and that's all I knew.
我知道加沙 50% 都是孩子，这就是我所知道的。
I thought "infitada" was a type of Mexican dish.
我以为“infitada”是一种墨西哥菜。
And, I mean, I knew nothing.
而且，我的意思是，我一无所知。
Intifada is the word for Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation.
起义是指巴勒斯坦人反抗以色列占领的起义。
But Mark was about to get a crash course from one of his fellow doctors.
但马克即将接受一位医生同事的速成课程。
We got on the van, and I heard Feroze talking casually to somebody else.
我们上了车，我听到费罗兹正在和其他人随意交谈。
He's got this deep baritone voice.
他有深沉的男中音。
And, you know, you meet somebody for the first time, and within minutes you can tell that somebody is a whole lot smarter than you.
而且，你知道，你第一次见到某人，几分钟之内你就可以看出某人比你聪明得多。
And my first message was, there's absolutely no way that I'm going to get on this van and not sit next to this dude, or behind him, or within earshot of him.
我的第一条信息是，我绝对不可能在上这辆货车时不坐在这个家伙旁边，或者在他后面，或者在他能听到的范围内。
Dr. Feroze Sidhwa, a trauma surgeon from the US-- he's also volunteered as a doctor in the war in Ukraine and with Palestinians in the West Bank.
费罗兹·西德瓦 (Feroze Sidhwa) 博士是一位来自美国的创伤外科医生，他还曾志愿担任乌克兰战争和约旦河西岸巴勒斯坦人的医生。
He's closely studied the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, though his family is from a small ethnic minority in what is now Pakistan.
他仔细研究了以色列-巴勒斯坦冲突，尽管他的家人来自现在巴基斯坦的一个少数民族。
When people look at me, they assume I'm Palestinian or something, but I'm not.
当人们看着我时，他们认为我是巴勒斯坦人或其他什么人，但我不是。
I lived in Haifa.
我住在海法。
That was from 2004 to '05, and I worked with an Arab Jewish cooperative that doesn't exist anymore.
那是从 2004 年到 05 年，我与一个阿拉伯犹太合作社合作，但现在已经不存在了。
And during that time, I toured around in the West Bank-- was never able to go to Gaza, but toured around in the West Bank a lot.
在那段时间里，我在约旦河西岸游览了——从来没有去过加沙，但在约旦河西岸游览了很多次。
So Mark sat next to Feroze, and when they arrived at the European Hospital-- that's the name of the hospital in Khan Younis in Gaza-- their team dropped off their thousands of pounds of supplies.
因此，马克坐在费罗兹旁边，当他们到达欧洲医院（加沙汗尤尼斯的医院名称）时，他们的团队扔下了数千磅的物资。
European Hospital was built for just over 200 beds, but is taking care of over 1,000 people, and families are living in every corner of the hospital.
欧洲医院的建设规模只有 200 多张床位，但要照顾 1000 多人，医院的每个角落都住满了家人。
Mark hadn't seen anything like it.
马克还没有见过类似的东西。
Feroze hadn't either, but he told me he didn't linger on that long.
费罗兹也没有，但他告诉我他并没有停留那么久。
A nurse took them on a quick tour, let them know where everything was-- the operating room, the ICU.
护士带他们快速参观了一下，让他们知道一切都在哪里——手术室、重症监护室。
The nurse that was showing us around didn't really speak English very well, and she just pointed at these two kids, and just pointed at her head, and said, shot, shot.
带我们参观的护士英语说得不太好，她只是指着这两个孩子，指着她的头，说，开枪，开枪。
There were four kids in the hospital with gunshot wounds to the head.
医院里有四名头部受枪伤的孩子。
I just thought that that was unbelievable.
我只是觉得这太难以置信了。
And I just assumed that she was just wrong.
我只是认为她错了。
I didn't think she was lying, but she was just incorrect.
我不认为她在撒谎，但她只是错了。
That probably was a shrapnel injury or something like that.
那可能是弹片伤或类似的伤。
But then, I looked at these kids, and they didn't have any other evidence of an explosive injury.
但后来，我观察了这些孩子，他们没有任何其他爆炸性伤害的证据。
And then we pulled up their CT scans, and sure enough, it did look like they had been shot in the head.
然后我们调出他们的 CT 扫描，果然，看起来他们的头部确实被击中了。
And then we went on and found two more kids also shot in the head in the other ICUs.
然后我们继续在其他重症监护室发现另外两个孩子头部也中枪。
This is, like, minutes into your initial tour of the hospital.
这大约是您初次参观医院的几分钟。
You see two kids with gunshots to the head and then two more kids with gunshots to the head.
你看到两个孩子头部中枪，然后另外两个孩子头部中枪。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, for me, what struck me about it was just the fact that it had happened.
是的，对我来说，最让我震惊的是它已经发生了。
I work in a pretty rough part of the country, so I do see children who get shot in the head.
我在这个国家的一个相当艰苦的地区工作，所以我确实看到过头部中弹的孩子。
Feroze works at a hospital near Stockton, California, which has higher rates of violent crime than most of the country.
费罗兹在加利福尼亚州斯托克顿附近的一家医院工作，那里的暴力犯罪率比全国大部分地区都要高。
But to see four kids with gunshot wounds to the head already admitted to the hospital when I get there, it certainly struck me as being very unusual.
但当我到达那里时，看到四个头部受枪伤的孩子已经被送进医院，这确实让我觉得很不寻常。
I mean, it was a war zone, but still, this was a lot.
我的意思是，那是一个战区，但仍然有很多。
And then, he moved on.
然后，他继续前进。
There were so many people that needed medical attention.
有很多人需要医疗护理。
The only way he could keep track of his patients was to make notes on his iPhone.
他跟踪病人的唯一方法就是在 iPhone 上做笔记。
Just to warn you here, the details are graphic.
只是在这里警告您，详细信息是图形化的。
Here, this is from March 28.
这是 3 月 28 日的情况。
Ike Sriskandarajah He pulled up an entry from a random day, just to give me a sense of what it was like.
Ike Sriskandarajah 他随机抽取了一天的条目，只是为了让我了解一下当时的情况。
Overnight, we had another mass casualty event.
一夜之间，又发生了一次大规模伤亡事件。
EMS told us a building with a large number of people in it was bombed.
EMS 告诉我们一座有很多人的建筑物被炸了。
And then, two children arrived dead.
然后，两个孩子抵达时已经死亡。
The one I saw was 12 months old, and the other was reportedly two years old.
我看到的一只12个月大，另一只据说已经两岁了。
Next bullet-- I took care of a seven-year-old girl with a blast injury pneumothorax to the right lung and a bad contusion to the left lung.
下一个子弹——我照顾了一个七岁的女孩，她右肺爆炸伤气胸，左肺严重挫伤。
Next bullet-- I took care of a three-year-old child who had a massive aspiration after a head injury.
下一个子弹——我照顾了一个三岁的孩子，他在头部受伤后有一个巨大的愿望。
Next bullet-- I took care of a 20-year-old woman with a left hemopneumothorax and depressed open skull fracture.
下一个要点——我照顾了一位 20 岁的女性，她患有左侧血气胸和凹陷性开放性颅骨骨折。
Next bullet-- I took care of her sister.
下一个子弹——我照顾她妹妹。
She had almost identical injuries.
她的伤势几乎一模一样。
Next bullet-- finally, I took care of a 25-year-old man with a frontal skull fracture and small associated subdural hematoma.
最后，我照顾了一名 25 岁的男子，他患有额头颅骨骨折并伴有轻微的硬膜下血肿。
No, that was-- all of that probably happened in one hour.
不，那是——这一切大概在一小时内就发生了。
That's one hour?
那是一小时吗？
Feroze Sidhwa That probably took about an hour or an hour and a half.
Feroze Sidhwa 这可能花了大约一个小时或一个半小时。
Yeah.
是的。
90 minutes-- it's intense.
90分钟——非常紧张。
But in that endless stream of traumatic injuries, there's one that jumped out at him every time, kids getting shot in the head.
但在那层出不穷的创伤性伤害中，每次都有一个人向他跳来，孩子们的头部中弹。
Whenever he saw this, he'd make a note of it on his phone.
每次看到这个，他都会用手机记下来。
And what I wrote down is that I was going through the ICU, and I found an eight-year-old girl shot in the head overnight.
我写下的是，我正在重症监护病房，我发现一个八岁的女孩一夜之间头部中弹。
Her pupils are fixed and dilated.
她的瞳孔固定并放大。
It's a transcranial gunshot wound, definitely non-survivable.
这是经颅枪伤，绝对无救了。
This is an eight-year-old girl with a bullet wound that went through her head.
这是一名八岁女孩，头部受了枪伤。
Yeah, the bullet didn't stop.
是的，子弹没有停下来。
And then, let's see, the next day.
然后，让我们看看，第二天。
So the next day, the eight-year-old girl had died, and in the same bed is a 14-year-old boy shot in the right chest and the head.
第二天，这名 8 岁女孩就死了，同一张床上还有一名 14 岁男孩，右胸和头部中弹。
The next day, I said, I went through the ICU afterwards.
第二天，我说，之后我去了重症监护室。
The 14-year-old boy turns out to be 12 when his family arrived.
当他的家人到达时，这个 14 岁的男孩才 12 岁。
So then, let's see, two days later, he's been replaced by a 13-year-old boy shot in the head.
那么，让我们看看，两天后，他被一名头部中弹的 13 岁男孩取代。
I wrote, he'll also die.
我写道，他也会死。
So then on that same day, I wrote, I took care of a two-year-old girl who was brought to the ED after being shot in the head.
因此，就在同一天，我写道，我照顾了一名两岁的女孩，她头部中弹后被送往急诊室。
She arrived with bilateral fixed and dilated pupils, also a non-survivable brain injury.
她到达时双侧瞳孔固定且散大，脑损伤也无法挽救。
We then had a mass casualty event a few minutes later.
几分钟后，我们发生了大规模伤亡事件。
At the same time that Feroze was starting to document this, Mark, working with his patients-- he was seeing the same thing.
在费罗兹开始记录这一点的同时，马克和他的病人一起工作——他也看到了同样的事情。
He vividly remembered the day he saw two kids brought in who had both been shot in the head and the chest.
他清楚地记得那天他看到两个孩子被带进来，他们的头部和胸部都中弹。
One of the kids was there with a family member.
其中一个孩子和一名家人一起在那里。
I ripped up his shirt, and there was a bullet entry wound right over the heart.
我撕开了他的衬衫，心脏上方有一道子弹射入的伤口。
And then I picked up the dressings on his forehead, and a second bullet went in right in front of his left ear hole, in front of his ear and out of his neck.
然后我拿起他额头上的敷料，第二颗子弹就从他的左耳洞前面射入，从他的耳朵前面穿过他的脖子。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
What was the kid doing when this happened?
发生这件事时，孩子在做什么？
I didn't ask if there was a street battle going on, but it happened twice in the same day.
我没有问是否发生巷战，但同一天发生了两次。
Yeah, right next to that kid was another kid who got shot in the head and the chest.
是的，那个孩子旁边还有另一个头部和胸部中弹的孩子。
And that child had no adult with him, so I couldn't get a story.
而且那个孩子没有大人陪伴，所以我无法得到一个故事。
It's hard to see it.
很难看到它。
These weren't kids injured by collapsing buildings.
这些不是因建筑物倒塌而受伤的孩子。
They were kids who'd been shot-- direct gunshot wounds into 12-year-olds, eight-year-olds, even toddlers.
他们是被枪杀的孩子——直接枪伤12岁、8岁的孩子，甚至还有幼儿。
Oh, over a dozen, combined two injuries, only two, head or chest, a dozen others.
噢，十几处，加起来有两处受伤，只有两处，头部或胸部，还有十几处。
Yeah.
是的。
Feroze Sidhwa By the time I left, I had seen 13 children shot in the head total, or at least that's what I recorded in my journal.
费罗兹·西德瓦 (Feroze Sidhwa) 当我离开时，我已经看到总共 13 名儿童头部中弹，或者至少我在日记中是这样记录的。
I probably saw more, but I try to stick to what I actually documented.
我可能看到了更多，但我尝试坚持我实际记录的内容。
13 children in 14 days.
14天内有13个孩子。
Even with all the other traumatic injuries and deaths they saw, the kids who were shot really stuck with Mark.
即使他们看到了所有其他的创伤性伤害和死亡，被枪杀的孩子们仍然对马克念念不忘。
It was haunting him.
这一直困扰着他。
Early on, I thought it was just an isolated jerk carrying out, because every army has jerks.
早些时候，我以为这只是一个孤立的混蛋在进行，因为每个军队都有混蛋。
War changes people, and so you can absolutely have rogue people behaving inappropriately.
战争改变了人，所以你绝对可以让流氓行为不当。
That's as far as Mark thought about it at the time.
马克当时就是这么想的。
The detail of 13 kids, all with gunshot wounds to the head and chest, it just got added to the long list of things they saw in Gaza and couldn't fully understand.
13名头部和胸部均受枪伤的孩子的细节，刚刚被添加到他们在加沙看到的一长串事情中，但无法完全理解。
It didn't come back to Feroze until they were back home and got invited to speak at a conference in Dearborn, Michigan.
直到他们回到家并受邀在密歇根州迪尔伯恩的一次会议上发言时，费罗兹才想起这一点。
The panel had another American doctor, who also volunteered in Gaza.
该小组还有另一位美国医生，他也在加沙做志愿者。
He worked in two different hospitals a couple months before Feroze and Mark arrived.
在费罗兹和马克到达之前几个月，他在两家不同的医院工作。
He's a Palestinian-American in Chicago named Thaer Ahmed.
他是芝加哥的巴勒斯坦裔美国人，名叫泰尔·艾哈迈德。
And we were just sitting next to each other, talking before our panel started.
在我们的小组开始之前，我们只是坐在一起聊天。
And I said, I couldn't believe how many kids I saw shot in the head.
我说，我不敢相信我看到有多少孩子头部中弹。
I just went through my journal recently, and it was 13.
我最近刚翻完日记，已经13了。
And he said, oh, yeah, I know, me, too.
他说，哦，是的，我知道，我也是。
Almost every day, I saw a kid shot in the head.
几乎每天，我都会看到一个孩子头部中弹。
And I was like, oh, OK.
我当时想，哦，好吧。
And then Feroze texted me, hey, this guy saw other kids shot.
然后费罗兹给我发短信，嘿，这个人看到其他孩子被枪杀。
We have to find out who else saw other kids shot.
我们必须找出还有谁看到其他孩子被枪杀。
So I started asking other people who had been over there-- physicians, nurses, midwives, nurse practitioners.
所以我开始询问去过那里的其他人——医生、护士、助产士、执业护士。
I got a call from Feroze Sidhwa.
我接到费罗兹·西德瓦 (Feroze Sidhwa) 的电话。
I think sometime in mid-July, he called me.
我想七月中旬的某个时候，他给我打电话。
Dr. Adam Hamawy is a plastic surgeon from New Jersey.
Adam Hamawy 博士是来自新泽西州的整形外科医生。
And he said, did you take care of anyone with any gunshot wounds to the head or face?
他说，你照顾过头部或脸部有枪伤的人吗？
And I said, yes.
我说，是的。
And he said, really?
他说，真的吗？
How many?
多少？
Because of Adam's specialty, he would have only seen children who survived a gunshot to the head long enough to make it to reconstructive surgery.
由于亚当的专业，他只会看到头部中枪后幸存下来并能接受重建手术的孩子。
Not many did.
没有多少人这样做。
He saw one.
他看到了一个。
It was still shocking to him.
这对他来说仍然是令人震惊的。
Adam had served in Iraq as a surgeon in the US Army.
亚当曾在伊拉克担任美国陆军外科医生。
He treated lots of injured people, but what he was seeing in Gaza was different.
他救治了很多受伤的人，但他在加沙看到的情况却有所不同。
When I was in Iraq, there were civilians that were injured.
我在伊拉克时，有平民受伤。
There were children that were injured.
有儿童受伤。
And that's called incidental, collateral damage, all the terms that we use to cleanly justify what's happening.
这就是所谓的附带损害，我们用所有这些术语来明确地证明正在发生的事情是合理的。
But the scale was, I mean, not even-- not even close to this.
但我的意思是，规模远不及这个。
I mean, I probably took care of, like, five, six children the whole time I was in Iraq, and I wasn't there for three weeks.
我的意思是，我在伊拉克的整个时间里可能都在照顾五六个孩子，而我在那里已经三个星期了。
I was there for eight months.
我在那里呆了八个月。
I mean, it didn't look-- it didn't appear that they were intentional targets.
我的意思是，看起来——看起来他们不是故意的目标。
Those you could really say that they were wrong place, wrong time.
那些你真的可以说他们是错误的地点、错误的时间。
I didn't see targeted gunshots to little kids that were five, six years old or 10, 15 years old.
我没有看到针对 5、6 岁或 10、15 岁小孩的有针对性的枪击事件。
In fact, I mean, I'm thinking back.
事实上，我的意思是，我正在回想。
I mean, I don't think I saw a gunshot wound to a kid at all when I was there.
我的意思是，我认为我在那里时根本没有看到孩子有枪伤。
There were documented cases where Americans did kill Iraqi children, but nothing near the scale that these doctors saw in Gaza.
有记录显示美国人确实杀害了伊拉克儿童，但规模远不及这些医生在加沙看到的规模。
As somebody with US military experience, do you have a perspective that could explain the circumstances that lead to a kid getting shot?
作为有美国军事经验的人，您是否有一个观点可以解释导致孩子被枪杀的情况？
How do you answer that?
你怎么回答这个问题？
These are little children that are being shot, and these aren't stray bullets.
这些是被枪杀的小孩子，并不是流弹。
These are aimed.
这些都是有针对性的。
They're precise.
它们很精确。
So a stray bullet will explain one or two of them.
所以一颗流弹就能解释其中的一两个。
It's not going to explain the string of precise, targeted shootings that are being done on children since October.
它无法解释自十月份以来针对儿童进行的一系列精确、有针对性的枪击事件。
The medical worker I spoke with who spent the most time in Gaza also saw the most kids shot-- 50.
与我交谈的那位在加沙待得时间最长的医务人员也看到了最多的儿童被枪杀——50 名。
She showed me a picture she took of a scan of a five or six-year-old's skull.
她给我看了一张她拍摄的五六岁儿童头骨扫描照片。
There's a bullet in the middle of it.
中间有一颗子弹。
She was told this child was playing with their friends when an armed quadcopter drone came overhead and shot the child.
她被告知这个孩子正在和他们的朋友一起玩耍，这时一架武装四轴飞行器飞过头顶并射杀了这个孩子。
Dr. Ahlia Kattan also responded to Feroze's callout.
Ahlia Kattan 博士也对 Feroze 的呼吁做出了回应。
She's an anesthesiologist from Southern California.
她是来自南加州的麻醉师。
She went with her husband, and between the two of them saw 15 kids who had been shot in the head or chest.
她和丈夫一起去，两人看到了 15 个头部或胸部中弹的孩子。
The one that really stuck with her also happened to be the youngest case I'd heard of.
真正令她印象深刻的案例也恰好是我听说过的最年轻的案例。
One day, I got called in for a mass trauma in the emergency room.
有一天，我因严重外伤被送往急诊室。
They said, we need help, so I assumed it was just from bombings.
他们说，我们需要帮助，所以我以为只是爆炸造成的。
And this 18-month-old got thrown into my hands.
这个18个月大的孩子就被扔到了我手里。
Her name was Liliana.
她的名字叫莉莉安娜。
I knew she was dead, but her mom was screaming, so I knew we had to do something and show her we tried.
我知道她死了，但她妈妈在尖叫，所以我知道我们必须做点什么，并向她展示我们尝试过。
So I didn't see any blood frothing out of her mouth, and I was doing chest compressions.
所以我没有看到她嘴里有任何血沫，而且我正在做胸外按压。
And I looked up at her head, and I saw there was blood.
我抬头看她的头，发现有血。
And I asked her, was there any imaging?
我问她，有影像吗？
They handed me a CT scan, and there was a bullet shot to her head, and you could tell it was like a shot right to her temple.
他们给了我一张 CT 扫描图，一颗子弹射中了她的头部，你可以看出这就像射中了她的太阳穴。
And I was just, like, in shock to-- never have I been done this many kids, but I've never done chest compressions on a gunshot wound to an 18-month-old.
我只是感到震惊——我从来没有接受过这么多孩子的治疗，但我从来没有对一个 18 个月大的孩子进行过枪伤胸外按压。
And the mom was just screaming.
妈妈只是尖叫。
The mom, this was her only daughter, and she had tried for nine years to have her.
妈妈，这是她唯一的女儿，她九年来一直想拥有她。
And she was just hysterical, obviously.
显然，她只是歇斯底里。
Feroze reached out to as many American medical workers as he could-- doctors, nurses, paramedics.
费罗兹尽可能多地联系了美国医务工作者——医生、护士、护理人员。
He created a survey to send out and compiled all the answers.
他创建了一份调查问卷并汇总了所有答案。
The results stunned him.
结果让他大吃一惊。
Almost everybody had the exact same experience.
几乎每个人都有完全相同的经历。
Almost universally, they said the same thing, which I really was surprised by.
他们几乎普遍都说了同样的话，这让我感到非常惊讶。
Out of the 53 American medical workers surveyed who did emergency care for children in Gaza, 44 said they saw kids shot in the head or chest.
在接受调查的 53 名在加沙为儿童提供紧急护理的美国医务人员中，有 44 人表示他们看到孩子头部或胸部中弹。
Here's Mark.
这是马克。
83% said they saw a child who was shot in the chest or head-- 83%.
83% 的人表示，他们看到一名儿童胸部或头部中弹——83%。
So it's not just my finding.
所以这不仅仅是我的发现。
Could you describe that moment when you saw just how many?
您能描述一下您看到了多少个的那一刻吗？
Oh, I cried.
哦，我哭了。
Yeah, because it gave a number to the tragedy.
是的，因为它为这场悲剧提供了数字。
Feroze published an op ed in the New York Times with the results of the survey.
费罗兹在《纽约时报》上发表了一篇评论文章，介绍了调查结果。
A group of the doctors wrote two letters to then President Biden outlining what they saw.
一群医生给当时的拜登总统写了两封信，概述了他们所看到的情况。
Feroze thought that would mean two things-- they'd get a call from the White House and there'd be an investigation.
费罗兹认为这意味着两件事——他们会接到白宫的电话，并且会进行调查。
I thought that any sensible Biden administration would take that New York Times article as a major opportunity to feign ignorance about what had been going on in Gaza and to say, oh, my God, we can't believe American doctors saw this.
我认为任何明智的拜登政府都会将《纽约时报》的这篇文章视为一个重要机会，假装对加沙正在发生的事情一无所知，并说，哦，天哪，我们不敢相信美国医生看到了这一点。
And if this is true, then we're going to have to seriously reevaluate the arms that we send to Israel.
如果这是真的，那么我们将不得不认真重新评估我们向以色列运送的武器。
I talked with three people who worked at the US State Department and reviewed allegations like this, including the person who, until recently, was the Ambassador at Large for Global Criminal Justice, a position that used to be called the War Crimes Ambassador.
我与在美国国务院工作的三名人士进行了交谈，并审查了此类指控，其中包括直到最近担任全球刑事司法无任所大使的人，该职位曾经被称为战争罪大使。
They all agreed the doctors' report sounded credible and significant enough to investigate.
他们都同意医生的报告听起来可信且重要，足以进行调查。
Each of them said the next step should be asking Israel for answers.
他们每个人都表示下一步应该向以色列寻求答案。
One, who is involved in vetting US weapons transfers, told me if this had been another country other than Israel, this is what would have happened.
一位参与审查美国武器转让的人士告诉我，如果这是以色列以外的另一个国家，就会发生这种情况。
A few years ago, a senior member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee received reports that Mexican marine units were executing and disappearing people.
几年前，众议院外交事务委员会的一名高级成员收到报告称，墨西哥海军陆战队正在处决和失踪人员。
The US stopped a shipment of machine guns for more than two years while they investigated the allegations.
在调查这些指控期间，美国已停止运送机枪两年多。
Eventually, Mexico agreed that American weapons wouldn't go to those units.
最终，墨西哥同意美国武器不会交给这些部队。
But that isn't what happened here.
但这不是这里发生的事情。
The Biden administration never met with Feroze and Mark.
拜登政府从未与费罗兹和马克会面。
They didn't investigate these claims or make any public statements asking Israel to stop shooting kids in Gaza.
他们没有调查这些说法，也没有发表任何公开声明，要求以色列停止在加沙射杀儿童。
They didn't try to get to the bottom of these allegations.
他们并没有试图追查这些指控的真相。
I read these doctors' accounts and had the same question they asked in one of their letters to President Biden.
我读了这些医生的叙述，并在给拜登总统的一封信中提出了同样的问题。
How could this be a series of accidents, such widespread shooting of so many young children over the course of an entire year?
这怎么会是一连串事故，一年来如此广泛地枪击了如此多的幼儿？
But I've also reported on war crimes before, and I know that cases that seem to a bystander, or even a doctor on the ground, like clear acts of atrocity-- they can be explained as a tragic but expected part of war, allowable under the rules of war.
但我以前也报道过战争罪，而且我知道，在旁观者甚至现场医生看来，这些案件就像明显的暴行——它们可以被解释为战争的悲剧性但预期的一部分，根据战争规则是允许的。
The Gaza Strip is a small, densely populated place.
加沙地带面积狭小，人口稠密。
It's nearly 50% children.
其中近50%是儿童。
Hamas is hiding inside that population.
哈马斯就藏身于这些人之中。
Any fighting between Hamas and Israel will have civilian casualties, including children.
哈马斯和以色列之间的任何战斗都会造成包括儿童在内的平民伤亡。
So we asked the Israel Defense Forces how they explained the reports from American medical workers.
所以我们询问以色列国防军他们如何解释美国医务人员的报告。
They declined both my interview requests, but sent a statement, saying, "The IDF does not target minors and takes extensive measures to prevent harm to civilians, including children.
他们拒绝了我的两次采访请求，但发表了一份声明，称：“以色列国防军不针对未成年人，并采取广泛措施防止对包括儿童在内的平民造成伤害。
The IDF is committed to mitigating civilian harm and operates in full compliance with international legal obligations.
以色列国防军致力于减轻平民伤害，并完全遵守国际法律义务。
For security reasons, we cannot elaborate on operational policies."
出于安全原因，我们无法详细说明运营政策。”
Which doesn't explain why so many kids were getting shot.
这并不能解释为什么这么多孩子被枪杀。
So I went looking for an Israeli soldier who'd served in Gaza, who could tell me what it was like on the ground and what the rules were on who they could shoot in what circumstances.
所以我去找了一位曾在加沙服役的以色列士兵，他可以告诉我当地的情况以及在什么情况下可以射杀谁的规则是什么。
And we found one who would talk with us.
我们找到了一位愿意与我们交谈的人。
He's a reservist in his early 30s, a grad student whose unit got called up at the beginning of the war.
他是一名 30 岁出头的预备役军人，是一名研究生，他的部队在战争开始时被征召入伍。
He asked us to just call him M.
他要求我们就叫他M。
He was worried about retribution, so we had an actor read his responses to my questions.
他担心遭到报复，所以我们让一位演员读了他对我问题的回答。
It varied a lot, but a typical day was we'd have some missions, looking for weapons, looking for tunnels.
变化很大，但典型的一天我们会执行一些任务，寻找武器，寻找隧道。
And if we see anybody, engage them.
如果我们看到任何人，请与他们接触。
And my role was the front machine gunner, light machine gunner.
而我的角色是前机枪手，轻机枪手。
His company started in the north of Gaza, not near the hospital where Feroze and Mark and most of the doctors were.
他的公司始于加沙北部，距离费罗兹、马克和大多数医生所在的医院不远。
He said there was a humanitarian road running north and south, and near the humanitarian road, the rules of engagement were don't shoot unless there's an immediate threat.
他说，有一条南北走向的人道主义道路，在人道主义道路附近，交战规则是除非有直接威胁，否则不要开枪。
But once you got away from the humanitarian road--
但一旦你离开了人道主义道路——
Everything besides that, we're told no one is supposed to be there.
除此之外，我们被告知任何人都不应该在那里。
The orders to evacuate have been made.
撤离命令已经下达。
Anyone who is there is not supposed to be there.
在那里的任何人都不应该在那里。
For us, basically the guidance was, men of fighting age, shoot.
对我们来说，基本上的指导是，战斗年龄的男人，射击。
It doesn't matter if they're armed or not.
他们是否携带武器并不重要。
They're not supposed to be there.
他们不应该在那里。
And the logic being that Hamas operators, they don't walk around armed.
逻辑是，哈马斯行动者不会携带武器四处走动。
They keep weapons caches in different homes.
他们将武器藏匿在不同的家里。
They walk around.
他们四处走动。
They run to the nearest house if they need a weapon.
如果他们需要武器，他们就会跑到最近的房子。
So any basically men, you shoot on sight.
所以基本上任何男人，你一看到就开枪。
Shoot to kill.
射杀。
M If it's a woman and child, use the standard kind of non-war procedure where you just detain them-- try to detain them.
M 如果是妇女和儿童，请使用标准的非战争程序拘留他们——尝试拘留他们。
This is how we heard it from the commanders.
这是我们从指挥官那里听到的。
Don't shoot women and children unless they're a threat.
除非妇女和儿童构成威胁，否则不要向他们开枪。
Try to just detain them.
尝试拘留他们。
He says there was one incident where his unit did see two young people they thought might be a threat.
他说，在一次事件中，他的单位确实看到了两名他们认为可能构成威胁的年轻人。
One day, when two teenagers, 14 or 15, were part of a convoy going south, they sprinted away and ran into a building.
有一天，两名14岁或15岁的青少年跟随一支南下的车队，一路狂奔，跑进了一栋大楼。
A Hummer and a tank followed them and ordered them to come out.
一辆悍马和一辆坦克跟在他们后面，命令他们出来。
The army thought the teens might be luring them into a trap.
军队认为这些青少年可能会引诱他们落入陷阱。
When the teens didn't come out, they fired at the building, killing them.
当这些青少年没有出来时，他们向建筑物开枪，将他们杀死。
He says his unit never fired on any other teenagers or little kids.
他说他的部队从未向任何其他青少年或小孩开枪。
But, he says, different units operate differently.
但是，他说，不同的单位运作方式不同。
The Israeli army is not the US Army.
以色列军队不是美军。
There's much more kind of DIY element.
还有更多种类的 DIY 元素。
It comes down to your commander, how he decides, the standards he sets.
这取决于你的指挥官，他如何决定，他设定的标准。
And our company commander happens to be a kibbutznik, who is a little bit more cautious and doesn't want to essentially create a [BLEEP] storm.
我们的连长恰好是一个基布兹尼克，他比较谨慎，不想制造一场[BLEEP]风暴。
Yeah.
是的。
I can tell you there are soldiers in the unit who are hardcore, right wing settlers who, if it was up to them, we could be doing much more damage.
我可以告诉你，部队里有一些士兵是铁杆的右翼定居者，如果由他们决定，我们可能会造成更多的伤害。
I remember there was another company in the battalion, their company commander, very much not like ours.
我记得营里还有一个连，是他们的连长，和我们的很不一样。
I was at an observation post, and he comes by just to look through my binoculars.
我在一个观察站，他过来只是为了用我的双筒望远镜观察。
And he sees a Gazan family passing by some Shaldag soldiers, and he sees them giving the family bottled water.
他看到一个加沙家庭经过一些沙尔达格士兵，他看到他们给这家人送瓶装水。
And he goes on the radio to yell at them, saying, what are you doing?
他在广播中对他们大喊大叫，说，你们在做什么？
You want to open up a lemonade stand, too?
你也想开个柠檬水摊吗？
And he starts looking through my binoculars and calling orders to some bulldozers, saying, see that line of trees over there?
他开始通过我的双筒望远镜观察并向一些推土机发出命令，说，看到那边的那排树了吗？
See that?
看到了吗？
Take them all down.
把他们全部拿下来。
Destroy all of that.
摧毁这一切。
And I ask, oh, are you doing an operation there later and for security, you don't want them to have any kind of sniper positions?
我问，哦，你稍后会在那里进行行动吗？为了安全起见，你不希望他们有任何狙击手位置？
And he said, no, just don't let them live.
他说，不，只是不要让他们活着。
He was pretty much operating from make it as difficult for their lives as possible going forward.
他的目的是尽可能让他们的生活变得困难。
So according to M, the broad permission to fire, and the types of units led by more aggressive company commanders, you can see how that could result in soldiers shooting Palestinian children.
因此，根据 M 的说法，广泛的开火许可，以及由更具攻击性的连指挥官领导的部队类型，你可以看到这将如何导致士兵射杀巴勒斯坦儿童。
He didn't see this himself.
他自己没有看到这一点。
This is just his opinion, he told me.
他告诉我，这只是他的意见。
But he believes that Israeli soldiers have probably shot some children on purpose.
但他认为，以色列士兵很可能故意射杀了一些儿童。
At least some of these cases I can see being intentional.
至少我认为其中一些案例是故意的。
It wouldn't shock me.
这不会让我感到震惊。
They're in the situation, and they get desensitized really fast, and develop a hatred really fast.
他们在这种情况下，很快就会麻木不仁，很快就会产生仇恨。
So no way to justify that.
所以没有办法证明这一点。
I do understand the mentality.
我确实理解这种心态。
At first, shooting unarmed people was horrifying to us.
起初，射击手无寸铁的人对我们来说是可怕的。
It's like, I can't believe we did that.
就像，我不敢相信我们做到了。
And then it was like, ugh.
然后就像，呃。
Like, you get desensitized to it.
就像，你对它变得不敏感。
And after you lose some friends, you start thinking, why even take the chance?
当你失去一些朋友后，你开始思考，为什么还要冒险呢？
Our lives are more important than theirs.
我们的生命比他们的更重要。
I won't bet my life on it that they're Hamas, but I'll bet their lives on it that they're Hamas, essentially.
我不会用我的生命打赌他们是哈马斯，但我会用他们的生命打赌他们本质上是哈马斯。
So regarding this American doctors seeing the children, no, I can only give my take that some soldier took it upon themselves, said, OK, they're an age like this that I can rationalize to myself that they're potentially combatants.
因此，关于这位美国医生给孩子们看病，不，我只能给出我的看法，一些士兵自己承担了责任，他说，好吧，他们已经到了这样的年龄，我可以对自己合理化，认为他们是潜在的战斗人员。
Why take the chance?
为什么要抓住机会？
I could just tell you, based on the dozen conversations I've had, they're talking about children who are as young as-- this is hard to say-- but 18 months who have been shot.
我可以告诉你，根据我所进行的十几次谈话，他们谈论的是那些年仅 18 个月大的儿童——这很难说——被枪杀。
Well, the 18-month-old, there's no-- there's no question there.
嗯，对于 18 个月大的孩子来说，这是毫无疑问的。
Yeah.
是的。
M And I don't think anything-- I can't give a reason.
M 我不认为有什么——我无法给出理由。
I mean, the simple one of crossfire, et cetera, that's one.
我的意思是，简单的交火等等，就是这样。
But if they're saying there was one shot exactly and no other wounds, then that goes out the window.
但如果他们说只有一枪而没有其他伤口，那就不可能了。
I asked M for other possible explanations.
我向M询问其他可能的解释。
What if the soldiers didn't know they were kids?
如果士兵们不知道他们是孩子怎么办？
It's a chaotic, tense environment full of people and places to hide.
这是一个混乱、紧张的环境，充满了人和隐藏的地方。
That could happen.
那可能会发生。
But he and another IDF soldier I spoke with, someone who didn't serve in Gaza but whose job was to identify targets for snipers, said it wasn't hard to distinguish a child from an adult.
但他和我采访过的另一名以色列国防军士兵表示，区分儿童和成年人并不难。这名士兵没有在加沙服役，但其工作是识别狙击手的目标。
It wouldn't explain an 18-month-old being precisely shot in the head, or toddlers, or other grade school age kids.
这无法解释一个 18 个月大的孩子、幼儿或其他小学年龄的孩子头部被精确射中的原因。
Were the kids being used as human shields by Hamas, or even victims of Hamas in a false flag operation to blame Israel and draw sympathy?
这些孩子是否被哈马斯用作人体盾牌，甚至是哈马斯假旗行动的受害者，以指责以色列并博得同情？
M hadn't heard of that happening in Gaza and hadn't seen it.
M 没有听说过加沙发生过这种事，也没有亲眼见过。
He says when he tries to make sense of what happened, there's been a societal shift in Israel that he thinks is a factor.
他说，当他试图弄清楚所发生的事情时，以色列发生了社会转变，他认为这是一个因素。
I hear enough attitudes and opinions that would have shocked me 10 years ago.
我听到了很多十年前会让我震惊的态度和观点。
Now, it's like yeah, this is how people feel here.
现在，是的，这就是人们在这里的感受。
I have a friend whose dad said in an interview he was in the Mossad and basically said that no one in Gaza over the age of 4 is innocent.
我有一个朋友，他的父亲在接受采访时说他在摩萨德，基本上是说加沙4岁以上的人没有一个是无辜的。
So this isn't a fringe mentality among Israelis.
所以这并不是以色列人的边缘心态。
No one in Gaza is innocent.
加沙没有人是无辜的。
They all support Hamas, of all ages.
他们各个年龄段都支持哈马斯。
Where they draw the line varies.
他们的界限各不相同。
But they'll say anyone that's self-aware in Gaza is a Hamas supporter.
但他们会说，加沙任何有自我意识的人都是哈马斯的支持者。
The Israeli army has not announced any investigations into the shooting of children in Gaza.
以色列军队尚未宣布对加沙儿童枪击事件进行任何调查。
In the meantime, the Trump administration just authorized another $12 billion in arms sales to Israel.
与此同时，特朗普政府刚刚授权向以色列再出售120亿美元的武器。
That's in addition to the reported $17.9 billion the US has given Israel in military aid since the war began.
据报道，自战争开始以来，美国已向以色列提供了 179 亿美元的军事援助。
The kids getting shot like this are a tiny part of the large number of casualties in Gaza.
像这样被枪杀的孩子只是加沙大量伤亡的一小部分。
At least 65,000 people have been killed, more than 15,000 of them children.
至少 65,000 人被杀，其中 15,000 多名儿童。
An expert who investigates war crimes described it as a haystack of needles.
一位调查战争罪行的专家将其描述为大海捞针。
Most of these allegations will never find their way to court, so sometimes, in cases like these, war crimes investigators look for emblematic crimes, clear instances of violence outside of the rules of war that tell us something about the war, like the My Lai Massacre, Srebrenica, the chemical weapons attacks in Syria.
这些指控中的大多数永远不会进入法庭，因此有时，在此类案件中，战争罪调查人员会寻找标志性犯罪，即战争规则之外的明显暴力事件，以告诉我们有关战争的一些信息，例如美莱村大屠杀、斯雷布雷尼察和叙利亚的化学武器袭击。
What do these deaths tell us?
这些死亡告诉我们什么？
The hundreds of kids American medical workers saw shot in the head and chest, what are they emblematic of?
美国医务人员看到数百名儿童头部和胸部中枪，他们象征着什么？
They tell us it's likely that an Israeli soldier can shoot a child in Gaza on purpose with no consequence, and the US isn't going to try to stop it.
他们告诉我们，一名以色列士兵很可能在加沙故意射杀一名儿童而不会造成任何后果，而美国不会试图阻止它。
Ike Sriskandarajah is a producer on our show.
艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾 (Ike Sriskandarajah) 是我们节目的制片人。
Avi Vichner is the actor who read for M.
阿维·维希纳 (Avi Vichner) 是为《M》朗读的演员。
Coming up, a woman discovers she is a central data point in a story she did not know was unfolding.
接下来，一位女士发现她是一个她不知道正在展开的故事的中心数据点。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Chana Joffe-Walt sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt)，代理艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
Today's show, Chaos Graph, people trying to make sense of things, trying to map what is happening around them and see the bigger picture.
今天的节目《混沌图》中，人们试图理解事物，试图绘制出周围发生的事情并看到更大的图景。
We've arrived at Act Two-- Solve for Where.
我们已经到了第二幕——解决问题。
In this next story, the bigger picture has become very clear to the rest of us over the last couple of weeks.
在下一个故事中，在过去的几周里，我们其他人已经变得非常清楚大局。
It's in the news all the time.
它一直出现在新闻中。
But the woman at the center of this story, she experienced it up close.
但这个故事的中心女人，她近距离地经历了这一切。
She learned each fact in the most personal, direct way, and making sense of those facts, understanding how they all fit together for her was urgent.
她以最个人、最直接的方式了解每个事实，并迫切需要理解这些事实，了解它们如何组合在一起。
Nadia Reiman has her story.
纳迪亚·雷曼有她的故事。
When Mari shows me this video, it feels like something I'm not supposed to be watching.
当 Mari 给我看这个视频时，我感觉像是我不应该看的东西。
On the screen is her fiance, Mikael.
屏幕上是她的未婚夫米凯尔。
He's shirtless.
他赤裸上身。
He's crisply lined up.
他整齐地排列着。
He's young, 23, bright green eyes, wild curly hair tucked under a baseball cap, and he's holding a tattoo gun, giving himself a tattoo on his stomach while she teases him, says he's never going to tattoo her again.
他很年轻，23岁，明亮的绿眼睛，狂野的卷发塞在棒球帽下，他拿着纹身枪，在肚子上给自己纹身，而她则取笑他，说他再也不会给她纹身了。
He looks up and laughs, his mouth full of braces.
他抬起头笑起来，嘴里塞满了牙套。
Mari is always sort of dragging Mikael about his tattoos.
Mari 总是因为 Mikael 的纹身而拖累他。
He has lots of them, some which Mari finds offensively dumb.
他有很多这样的想法，其中一些玛丽觉得非常愚蠢。
He has a Mickey Mouse, but the Mickey Mouse is smoking.
他有一只米老鼠，但米老鼠在抽烟。
He used to smoke, and he used to do ridiculous things like that, because to me, they're ridiculous things.
他曾经抽烟，他曾经做过类似的荒谬的事情，因为对我来说，它们是荒谬的事情。
But yeah.
但是是的。
And then behind that, he has a little hand, like a little hand with an eye.
然后在那后面，他有一只小手，就像一只长着眼睛的小手。
And he tells me that eye sees everything.
他告诉我眼睛可以看到一切。
And I was just like, bueno, OK.
我当时就想，好啊，好吧。
And he has something else there, like just-- like an ugly doll, like it looks like a toad.
他还有别的东西，就像——就像一个丑陋的洋娃娃，看起来像一只蟾蜍。
It has big eyes.
它有大眼睛。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Nadia Reiman It's ET smoking a blunt.
[说西班牙语] Nadia Reiman 这是外星人在抽烟。
Mari is not her real name.
Mari不是她的真名。
She's from Venezuela.
她来自委内瑞拉。
She's here applying for asylum, which is legal, but that seems to matter less and less nowadays in terms of who gets deported, hence the alias.
她在这里申请庇护，这是合法的，但如今对于谁被驱逐出境而言，这似乎越来越不重要，因此有了别名。
Mari and Mikael are the kind couple who wear matching outfits-- her idea, but she insists he's also into it, shows me a picture where they're wearing matching pink shorts that he chose.
玛丽和米凯尔是一对穿着相配服装的善良情侣——她的主意，但她坚持说他也喜欢，给我看了一张照片，他们穿着他选择的相配的粉色短裤。
Mikael is a barber.
米凯尔是一名理发师。
Mari works cleaning hotels, so they work opposite hours.
Mari 负责酒店清洁工作，所以他们的工作时间相反。
She gets up early, goes to bed early.
她起得很早，睡得很早。
He gets up later, goes to bed later.
他起床较晚，睡觉较晚。
When their schedules do match up, they're usually so tired that they sit at home and watch TV on their fuzzy pink bedspread.
当他们的日程安排相符时，他们通常会很累，于是坐在家里，在毛茸茸的粉色床单上看电视。
The morning it happened, Mari left early, like she usually does.
事情发生的那天早上，玛丽像往常一样提前离开了。
She noticed a bunch of men outside.
她注意到外面有一群男人。
They were dressed in black, she says.
她说，他们穿着黑色衣服。
One of them spoke Spanish.
其中一人会说西班牙语。
They came up to her, her roommate, and her landlord.
他们找到了她、她的室友和她的房东。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter The owner of the house stands up, and he looks out the window, and he sees a few police outside.
[西班牙语] 翻译 房子的主人站起来，他向窗外望去，看到外面有几个警察。
And they show him a photo, and they ask him for un muchacho, for a guy.
他们给他看了一张照片，然后向他要 un muchacho，要一个男人。
And he says, no, he doesn't live here, but three other people live here.
他说，不，他不住在这里，但另外三个人住在这里。
It seemed like they were looking for someone.
看起来他们是在找人。
One of them showed her the photo on his phone.
其中一人给她看了他手机上的照片。
He was like, do you know this person?
他说，你认识这个人吗？
He was a dark-skinned person with dark hair.
他是一个深色皮肤、深色头发的人。
He had big eyes.
他有一双大眼睛。
He had a beard.
他留着胡子。
We didn't really know who he was.
我们真的不知道他是谁。
And they tell us that he's Dominican.
他们告诉我们他是多米尼加人。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And he tells us that they're going to check the house to just make sure and to verify, to make sure it's true that that person that they're looking for doesn't live here.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 他告诉我们，他们将检查房子，以确保并核实，以确保他们正在寻找的那个人确实不住在这里。
I really didn't see a problem with it because we haven't committed any crime.
我真的不认为这有什么问题，因为我们没有犯任何罪。
We're not hiding anything.
我们没有隐瞒任何事情。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Nadia Reiman Mari figured she and Mikael had applied for asylum.
[西班牙语] 纳迪亚·雷曼·马里 (Nadia Reiman Mari) 认为她和米凯尔已申请庇护。
He had his first court hearing already.
他已经进行了第一次法庭听证会。
His next one was coming up.
他的下一个即将到来。
They didn't think they were in any danger, so Mari sees no problem with letting any sort of law enforcement in.
他们认为自己没有任何危险，因此马里认为让任何形式的执法人员进入都没有问题。
So she opens the gate, leads them down these narrow gray steps and into her basement apartment, where Mikael was still asleep.
于是她打开门，领着他们走下狭窄的灰色台阶，进入她的地下室公寓，米凯尔还在睡觉。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter So they went downstairs, and, obviously, I went first, because I was there to wake him up.
[说西班牙语] 翻译所以他们下楼了，显然，我先走了，因为我在那里叫醒他。
He was half asleep, and he says, what's happening?
他半睡半醒地问，发生什么事了？
He sat up, and when he sat up, well, he usually sleeps naked.
他坐起来，当他坐起来时，嗯，他通常是裸睡的。
I hand him a towel, and I tell him put the towel on because [SPEAKING SPANISH].
我递给他一条毛巾，并告诉他把毛巾戴上，因为[说西班牙语]。
The police is coming.
警察来了。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter They came in.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 他们进来了。
They pushed the door.
他们推开了门。
They put me in handcuffs.
他们给我戴上手铐。
They put him in handcuffs.
他们给他戴上手铐。
And the moment that happened, I said, well, what's happening?
当事情发生的那一刻，我说，好吧，发生了什么事？
Why are you putting us in handcuffs?
你为什么给我们戴上手铐？
And then I started crying.
然后我开始哭泣。
I started crying, and he would tell me, niña, tranquila.
我开始哭泣，他会告诉我，妮娜，平静。
Niña, calm down.
妮娜，冷静点。
And I kept on crying, and I was asking, why are we in handcuffs?
我一直在哭，我问，为什么我们戴着手铐？
Why are they doing this?
他们为什么要这样做？
But they didn't tell me anything.
但他们什么也没告诉我。
The only thing they were saying, stay calm, because things can get worse.
他们唯一说的是，保持冷静，因为事情可能会变得更糟。
And if he moved, whatever movement he made, they would sit him down.
如果他动了，无论他做什么，他们都会让他坐下。
I mean, he couldn't do anything.
我的意思是，他什么也做不了。
He couldn't move.
他无法动弹。
Did they identify themselves?
他们表明了自己的身份吗？
Did they tell you they were from ICE?
他们有告诉你他们来自 ICE 吗？
No. Nadia Reiman The men in black, Mari would later learn, were maybe ICE, Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, or maybe police working with ICE and the DEA for some reason.
不。纳迪亚·雷曼 马里后来得知，这些黑衣人可能是 ICE、移民和海关执法局，也可能是出于某种原因与 ICE 和 DEA 合作的警察。
We don't know for sure, because they won't answer any of my questions.
我们不确定，因为他们不会回答我的任何问题。
What we do know is that Mikael ends up one of the 238 men who are in the news now almost every day, men who were sent away to a prison in El Salvador, where no one can reach them.
我们所知道的是，米凯尔最终成为了现在几乎每天都出现在新闻中的 238 名男子之一，这些人被送往萨尔瓦多的一所监狱，在那里无人能联系到他们。
And the president has refused to try to get them back, despite a court suggesting he should.
尽管法院建议他应该这样做，但总统拒绝尝试让他们回来。
But that's all in the future.
但这都是未来的事情了。
On that day in February, Mari says there was one of them, one of the men in black, that spoke Spanish.
马里说，二月的那天，其中一个人，其中一个黑衣人，会说西班牙语。
He started talking to Mikael.
他开始和米凯尔说话。
He was calmer.
他平静多了。
He was like, it's OK, man, just be cool.
他说，没关系，伙计，冷静点。
Don't move too much.
不要移动太多。
It's going to be fine.
一切都会好起来的。
He translates for the rest.
其余的都是他翻译。
He tells Mari that they are taking Mikael, that they need to question him, but that she is free to go.
他告诉玛丽，他们正在带走米凯尔，他们需要审问他，但她可以自由离开。
Mari is in a daze.
马里正在发呆。
She doesn't know why they are taking him but letting her go.
她不知道为什么他们要带走他却又放了她。
They uncuff her.
他们给她解开了手铐。
They let Mikael get dressed.
他们让米凯尔穿好衣服。
The one that speaks Spanish tells Mari that they're taking him to Federal Plaza, an ICE office in Manhattan.
会说西班牙语的人告诉马里，他们要带他去联邦广场，这是 ICE 位于曼哈顿的办公室。
And then, it's over.
然后，就结束了。
The men in uniforms take Mikael away, and Mari is left looking around, wondering what just happened.
穿着制服的男人带走了米凯尔，留下玛丽环顾四周，想知道刚刚发生了什么。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I didn't know what to do, so the first thing I did was-- I don't know.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 我不知道该怎么办，所以我做的第一件事就是——我不知道。
I went to work.
我去上班了。
You went to work after that?
后来你去上班了吗？
Mari Si.
马里斯.
Si.
斯。
I didn't know what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
I thought to myself, look, I'll go to work.
我心想，看，我要去上班了。
I'll look for help.
我会寻求帮助。
I just didn't know what to do.
我只是不知道该怎么办。
I didn't know.
我不知道。
Everything felt stuck.
一切都感觉卡住了。
I've never gone through something like this.
我从来没有经历过这样的事情。
Not going to work is not an option for Mari.
对于马里来说，不去工作不是一个选择。
She's been working since she was about 16, no matter what's happening around her.
她从大约 16 岁起就开始工作，无论周围发生什么。
Her boss told me that she's never met someone so young yet so serious, reliable.
她的老板告诉我，她从来没有见过这么年轻却这么认真、可靠的人。
She's the only one in her family who has left the country, the problem solver, the one her mom likes best, she said.
她说，她是家里唯一离开这个国家的人，是问题的解决者，也是她妈妈最喜欢的人。
I asked her, would your mom agree?
我问她，你妈妈同意吗？
And without missing a beat, she said, I will FaceTime her right now and you can ask her yourself.
她毫不犹豫地说，我现在就给她发 FaceTime，你可以亲自问她。
Mari met Mikael in Colombia three years ago.
三年前，马里在哥伦比亚遇见了米凯尔。
She was 21.
她21岁。
He kept hanging out at the boutique where she worked and one day, she mentioned she wanted a tattoo.
他一直在她工作的精品店闲逛，有一天，她提到她想要纹身。
He was like, I'll do it for you.
他说，我会为你做的。
She was skeptical but agreed.
她对此表示怀疑，但还是同意了。
From the moment they started dating, they were inseparable.
从他们开始约会的那一刻起，他们就形影不离。
Mari told me she has a temper and liked that Mikael could handle it.
玛丽告诉我，她脾气不好，喜欢米凯尔能处理好。
She says he's funny and charming, a little more shameless than she is.
她说他风趣又迷人，只是比她还要无耻一点。
When they traveled up to the US, if they needed to ask for food, Mari always felt embarrassed.
当他们到美国旅行时，如果需要吃饭，玛丽总是感到尴尬。
Not Mikael.
不是米凯尔。
He made friends with everybody.
他和每个人都成了朋友。
When they got to New York and their hours didn't match up, they spent what seems to me like basically their whole day video calling.
当他们到达纽约时，他们的工作时间不一致，在我看来，他们基本上一整天都在进行视频通话。
When she got off the train in the morning, call from Mikael.
早上她一下火车，就接到了米凯尔的电话。
When he got out of the shower, call from Mikael.
当他洗完澡后，迈克尔打来电话。
At lunchtime, call from Mikael.
午餐时间，Mikael 打来电话。
While he's cutting hair, call from Mikael.
当他剪头发时，迈克尔打来电话。
They knew where the other was, what the other was doing, what the other was eating all the time, until now.
他们一直知道对方在哪里，对方在做什么，对方在吃什么，直到现在。
Mari is at a loss.
马里不知所措。
She doesn't understand why Mikael would be in trouble.
她不明白为什么米凯尔会遇到麻烦。
So she turns to the first person she trusts that knows this crazy system to see if she can help her make sense of what's going on, her boss at the hotel, a woman from Ecuador who's also an immigrant but a citizen.
因此，她求助于她信任的第一个了解这个疯狂系统的人，看看她是否能帮助她理解正在发生的事情，她是酒店的老板，一位来自厄瓜多尔的女人，她也是移民，但也是公民。
Her boss always told her employees if they were ever in trouble with immigration, come to her, no problem.
她的老板总是告诉她的员工，如果他们在移民方面遇到麻烦，就来找她，没问题。
So even though it made Mari feel a little embarrassed to ask for help, she did it.
因此，尽管寻求帮助让玛丽感到有点尴尬，但她还是这么做了。
Mari's boss helped Mari find Mikael online through an ICE website.
Mari 的老板帮助 Mari 通过 ICE 网站在线找到了 Mikael。
And it shows that, indeed, Mikael is being held in New York.
这表明，米凯尔确实被关押在纽约。
That afternoon, he calls and tells Mari that they had to hold him there, even though there was no criminal record of him.
那天下午，他打电话告诉玛丽，他们必须把他扣在那里，尽管他没有犯罪记录。
That night, Mari tracks him online again and sees that he's now in Pennsylvania.
那天晚上，玛丽再次在网上追踪他，发现他现在在宾夕法尼亚州。
She thinks, why are they moving him?
她想，他们为什么要搬走他？
Mari's boss tells her get a lawyer, like yesterday, so she starts to look for one.
玛丽的老板告诉她去找律师，就像昨天一样，所以她开始寻找律师。
She needs one that she can afford and that speaks Spanish.
她需要一个她能买得起并且会说西班牙语的人。
It took her a week to find one.
她花了一个星期才找到一个。
The lawyer looks into Mikael's case right away, trying to figure out why he got detained in the first place.
律师立即调查米凯尔的案件，试图找出他最初被拘留的原因。
Much to the lawyer's distaste, Mari, a true gen Z'er, starts to post a lot on TikTok.
令律师非常反感的是，真正的 Z 一代 Mari 开始在 TikTok 上发布大量帖子。
Almost overnight, her feed morphs from dancing reggaeton videos to photo collages of Mikael set to cheesy Spanish ballads, laying out their story, asking people to make it go viral.
几乎一夜之间，她的动态就从雷鬼舞视频变成了米凯尔的照片拼贴，背景是俗气的西班牙民谣，讲述他们的故事，要求人们让它像病毒一样传播。
Mari is particularly concerned with Mikael being moved to Pennsylvania like that, without him consenting to it.
马里特别担心米凯尔在未经他同意的情况下被转移到宾夕法尼亚州。
The lawyer tells her, don't worry about that part.
律师告诉她，别担心那部分。
The government can move him around detention centers all they want.
政府可以随心所欲地将他转移到拘留中心。
They just can't deport him.
他们就是不能驱逐他。
A judge has to decide that.
法官必须做出决定。
So for the next few weeks, all of these moving parts become Mari's new normal-- TikToks about Mikael, calls with the lawyer, video calls from the Pennsylvania detention center.
因此，在接下来的几周里，所有这些活动部分都成为 Mari 的新常态——关于 Mikael 的 TikTok、与律师的通话、来自宾夕法尼亚州拘留中心的视频通话。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter Four or five times a day was him calling me, me calming him down, me telling him he was going to get out of there, to have faith.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 他每天给我打电话四五次，我让他平静下来，告诉他他要离开那里，要有信心。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Nadia Reiman And then, one day in March, she doesn't hear from him for hours.
[说西班牙语] Nadia Reiman 然后，三月的一天，她几个小时没有收到他的消息。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And then he called me.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 然后他给我打电话。
He called me at 4:00 in the morning, and he tells me, crying desperately, niña, they transferred me again to El Valle, to Texas.
早上 4:00 他给我打电话，他绝望地哭着告诉我，妮娜，他们又把我转移到了德克萨斯州的埃尔瓦莱。
I was the whole time on a plane.
我一直在飞机上。
They didn't tell me anything.
他们什么也没告诉我。
I didn't eat.
我没吃。
I didn't drink water.
我没有喝水。
They didn't give us anything.
他们没有给我们任何东西。
I haven't been able to sleep.
我一直无法入睡。
They're going to process me here.
他们要在这里处理我。
And me, bueno niño, calm down.
而我，好孩子，冷静点。
Be strong.
要坚强。
You're going to leave.
你要离开了。
Remember that on Monday, you have your court appointment.
请记住，周一您将有法庭预约。
If we have to pay bail, we'll pay bail.
如果我们必须支付保释金，我们就会支付保释金。
But you're going to-- you're going to leave.
但你会——你会离开。
You're going to get out of there.
你要离开那里。
Mari checks the website, and indeed, there he is in Texas, so much further away from her, from their little basement apartment.
马里检查了网站，确实，他在德克萨斯州，离她很远，离他们的小地下室公寓很远。
She's like, why are they taking him further away?
她想，为什么他们要带他走得更远？
She calls the lawyer, who tells her, again, don't worry, they can move him, but they can't deport him.
她打电话给律师，律师再次告诉她，别担心，他们可以把他移走，但不能驱逐他。
Which is true, at least legally speaking.
这是真的，至少从法律上来说是这样。
Mari had a bad feeling, but she pushed it down and went to work.
玛丽有一种不好的预感，但她还是忍住了，去上班了。
I worked as much as I could, because honestly, when you're nervous, when you're anxious, it's really, really hard to get things done.
我尽我所能地工作，因为老实说，当你紧张、焦虑时，真的很难把事情做好。
I arrived really late to my house that day.
那天我很晚才到家。
I arrived at 8 o'clock.
我八点到的。
I arrived on the bus.
我乘公共汽车到达。
When I get down off the bus on the corner of my house, my boss, she was the one that sent me the video.
当我在我家拐角处下车时，我的老板，她就是给我发视频的人。
She tells me, Mari, I sent you this video.
她告诉我，玛丽，我给你发了这段视频。
I think I saw your husband there.
我想我在那里看到了你丈夫。
Take a look and let me know if it's him.
看一下，告诉我是不是他。
She sent it to your phone, like a video on your phone?
她发到你手机上，就像你手机上的视频一样？
Si.
斯。
Interpreter Yeah, it was a news clip, from Telemundo.
口译员 是的，这是来自 Telemundo 的新闻剪辑。
And I click on the video, and the beginning is there were airplanes, getting to El Salvador, and a bunch of Venezuelans, people getting off the planes and all of that.
我点击视频，一开始有飞机飞往萨尔瓦多，还有一群委内瑞拉人，人们下了飞机等等。
But at the end, when the video was almost done, there's a moment where there's people kneeling down, getting shaved.
但在视频快结束时，有一个时刻，有人跪下，刮胡子。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Nadia Reiman There, at 38 seconds in on the screen, was Mikael, profile sharp, curls falling around his face, his head held down while someone shaves his head.
[西班牙语] 纳迪娅·雷曼 (Nadia Reiman) 屏幕上第 38 秒处出现的是迈克尔 (Mikael)，他轮廓鲜明，卷发垂落在脸上，低着头，有人给他剃光头。
It lasts just a few seconds, and then the camera cuts to someone else.
它只持续了几秒钟，然后镜头切换到另一个人。
It was chilling, like a scene in some perverse movie.
这令人不寒而栗，就像某些反常电影中的场景一样。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I recognized him immediately.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我立刻认出了他。
The second I saw him, I knew it was him.
我第一眼看到他，就知道是他。
He has a tattoo, and it's a Chinese phrase, like on his sideburn.
他有一个纹身，是一个中文短语，就像在他的鬓角上一样。
And, obviously, when they were shaving him, you could see it.
显然，当他们给他刮胡子时，你可以看到这一点。
And he has long, curly blonde hair, and he's the only one who had hair like that.
他有一头长长的金色卷发，而且他是唯一拥有这样头发的人。
I mean, it was him.
我的意思是，是他。
It was him.
是他。
When I saw him, I went into crisis.
当我看到他的时候，我陷入了危机。
I started shaking.
我开始发抖。
I started crying.
我开始哭了。
I was with another girl that lives with me, because we work in the same hotel.
我和另一个和我住在一起的女孩在一起，因为我们在同一家酒店工作。
And I tell her, Josefina, it's him.
我告诉她，约瑟芬娜，就是他。
Josefina, it's him.
约瑟菲娜，就是他。
It's Mikael.
是米凯尔。
They took him, and I just-- it was very bad.
他们带走了他，而我只是——这非常糟糕。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I was telling her, Jose, it's him, it's him, it's him.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我告诉她，何塞，是他，是他，是他。
And the first thing she told me was calm down, because something could happen to you.
她告诉我的第一件事就是冷静，因为你可能会发生什么事。
And all I could say was, Jose, it's him.
我只能说，何塞，就是他。
They took him.
他们带走了他。
I just felt so, so sad when I saw his face, like he was suffering.
当我看到他的脸时，我感到非常非常悲伤，就像他正在受苦一样。
His eyes were swollen.
他的眼睛肿了。
He must have cried so much.
他一定哭得很厉害。
And then immediately, I went home.
然后我立即回家了。
I turned on my computer, and I started to look, and immediately, I saw that he was-- he was no longer in the US system.
我打开电脑，我开始看，立刻，我看到他——他已经不在美国体系里了。
At that moment, Mari unknowingly became a data point, part of a group of people who figured out their loved ones were taken to a notoriously bad Salvadoran prison through a video.
那一刻，马里不知不觉地成为了一个数据点，一群人通过视频发现自己的亲人被带到了臭名昭著的萨尔瓦多监狱。
A mom in Venezuela had the same experience at around the same time as Mari.
委内瑞拉的一位妈妈和玛丽大约在同一时间也有同样的经历。
She saw a close-up of her son Mervin Yamarte Fernandez's face on screen in the same Telemundo report, and that's how she knew where he was.
在 Telemundo 的同一份报道中，她在屏幕上看到了她儿子默文·亚玛特·费尔南德斯 (Mervin Yamarte Fernandez) 脸部的特写，这就是她知道他在哪里的原因。
Another mom, same thing.
另一个妈妈，同样的事情。
Seeing a brief glimpse of his tattooed arms was the only marker of her son Francisco Garcia Casique and his whereabouts.
瞥见他纹身的手臂是她儿子弗朗西斯科·加西亚·卡斯克及其行踪的唯一标志。
Without these videos, they would have simply disappeared.
如果没有这些视频，它们就会消失。
I know people say unprecedented a lot, but I really can't think of another word to describe this swift and secretive removal of 238 Venezuelans.
我知道人们经常说“史无前例”，但我真的想不出其他词来形容这次迅速而秘密地撤离 238 名委内瑞拉人的行动。
It happened so quickly.
事情发生得太快了。
Within four hours of the Trump administration invoking the Alien Enemies Act, Mikael and the other 237 got removed.
特朗普政府援引《外星敌人法案》后的四个小时内，米凯尔和其他 237 人被驱逐出境。
Mari described it to me as a kidnapping.
马里向我描述这是一次绑架。
And this move of shipping people who were in the US abroad to some dank prison is unlike anything I've seen in US immigration.
这种将身在美国的人运送到潮湿的监狱的做法与我在美国移民中看到的任何做法都不一样。
We've sent hundreds to the mega prison CECOT so far, and we're paying the Salvadoran government $6 million to hold them.
到目前为止，我们已将数百人送往大型监狱 CECOT，并支付给萨尔瓦多政府 600 万美元来关押他们。
It's described as a prison no one leaves alive.
它被描述为一座无人能活着离开的监狱。
And it's next to impossible to talk to people who are there.
与那里的人交谈几乎是不可能的。
Not even lawyers can.
连律师都做不到。
The government is saying Mikael was sent there because he's a gang member, Tren de Aragua.
政府称，米凯尔被派到那里是因为他是特伦·德·阿拉瓜 (Tren de Aragua) 帮派成员。
So is he?
他也是吗？
The New York Times and CBS have made these lists with all the men taken there, looked into whether they could find any criminal activity here in the US, in Venezuela, and in surrounding countries.
《纽约时报》和哥伦比亚广播公司列出了所有被带到那里的人的名单，调查他们是否能在美国、委内瑞拉和周边国家发现任何犯罪活动。
And so far, it looks like almost 90% either have no record or have been charged with minor offenses, like driving with a suspended license or trespassing.
到目前为止，几乎 90% 的人要么没有记录，要么被指控犯有轻微罪行，例如持吊销驾照驾驶或非法侵入。
I talked to a professor named Dorothy Kronick, who's making one of these lists.
我和一位名叫多萝西·克罗尼克（Dorothy Kronick）的教授交谈过，她正在列出其中一个名单。
She studies crime and policing in Venezuela.
她在委内瑞拉研究犯罪和警务。
I asked her specifically about Mikael.
我特别向她询问了米凯尔的情况。
She hasn't found anything suspicious.
她没有发现任何可疑的东西。
I also asked a local reporter in his hometown, this small island off the coast of Venezuela.
我还询问了他家乡委内瑞拉海岸小岛的当地记者。
She told me that there is no Tren de Aragua activity there.
她告诉我那里没有 Tren de Aragua 活动。
Mikael lived in Colombia for a while.
米凯尔在哥伦比亚住了一段时间。
I did a criminal record search there, using his Venezuelan government ID number.
我使用他的委内瑞拉政府身份证号码在那里进行了犯罪记录搜索。
Nothing.
没有什么。
This lack of information connecting Mikael to Tren de Aragua, that doesn't seem to deter our government.
缺乏将米凯尔与特伦·德阿拉瓜联系起来的信息，但这似乎并没有阻止我们的政府。
Robert Cerna, an acting field office director for ICE's removal operations, said something that stuck with me.
ICE 清除行动代理现场办公室主任罗伯特·塞尔纳 (Robert Cerna) 说了一句话让我印象深刻。
Quote, "The lack of specific information about each individual actually highlights the risk they pose.
引用：“缺乏每个人的具体信息实际上凸显了他们所构成的风险。
It demonstrates that they are terrorists, with regard to whom we lack a complete profile." So according to the government, no proof that you're a criminal is the greatest proof of all.
这表明他们是恐怖分子，而我们对他们缺乏完整的了解。”因此，根据政府的说法，没有证据证明你是罪犯就是最好的证据。
Mari is convinced that Mikael's tattoos, that's the only reason the government thinks he's a gang member, which is not crazy.
马里确信米凯尔的纹身是政府认为他是帮派成员的唯一原因，这并不疯狂。
The government is looking at tattoos.
政府正在关注纹身。
They have a list of Tren de Aragua suspicious tattoos, and it is broad-- trains, crowns, roses, clocks, star, a Michael Jordan.
他们有一份特伦·德·阿拉瓜可疑纹身清单，内容很广泛——火车、王冠、玫瑰、时钟、星星、迈克尔·乔丹。
If this is a list of gang tattoos, everyone under 50 is in a gang.
如果这是一份帮派纹身清单，那么 50 岁以下的每个人都属于帮派。
Ronna Risquez, a Venezuelan reporter who has been following Tren de Aragua for 10 years and wrote the book about them, told me two things.
委内瑞拉记者罗娜·里斯克斯 (Ronna Risquez) 跟踪特伦·德·阿拉瓜 (Tren de Aragua) 已有 10 年，并写了一本关于他们的书，她告诉我两件事。
One, as far as she knows, there are no Tren de Aragua specific tattoos, so basing anything on tattoos is ridiculous.
第一，据她所知，特伦·德·阿拉瓜没有特定的纹身，所以基于纹身的任何东西都是荒谬的。
To be fair, the government says they're relying on more than just tattoos, but it's unclear in a lot of cases what else.
公平地说，政府表示他们不仅仅依赖纹身，但在很多情况下还不清楚还依赖什么。
And two, Ronna confirmed what the local reporter said, that the place Mikael is from has no Tren de Aragua activity at all.
第二，罗纳证实了当地记者的说法，即米凯尔所在的地方根本没有特伦·德·阿拉瓜的活动。
Mari scoffs at the idea that Mikael is some secret Tren de Aragua operative who could hide from the biggest snoop of all, her.
玛丽嘲笑米凯尔是特伦·德·阿拉瓜的某个秘密特工，他可以躲避最大的窥探者——她。
I mean, when you're with someone, you're going to notice if he's into something weird or not.
我的意思是，当你和某人在一起时，你会注意到他是否对某些奇怪的事情感兴趣。
And, I'm a very toxic person.
而且，我是一个非常有毒的人。
Bueno, not toxic.
布埃诺，没有毒。
Like, I'm not toxic when it comes to women, but I like to be on top of what he's doing all the time.
就像，我对女人并不有毒，但我喜欢一直掌控他在做什么。
I go through all his things.
我经历了他所有的事情。
I go through his phone.
我翻看他的电话。
I spent a lot of time with him at the barber shop.
我在理发店和他一起度过了很多时间。
We were always making video calls while he was working, while I was working.
当他工作时，当我工作时，我们总是进行视频通话。
It was always 24 hours a day we were in communication, we were in touch.
我们每天 24 小时都在沟通、保持联系。
And he's the same.
他也是一样。
He was-- he was more toxic than me.
他——他比我更有毒。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Nadia Reiman What Mikael is is an asylum seeker.
[西班牙语] Nadia Reiman Mikael 是一名寻求庇护者。
Regardless of what his asylum claim is and whether or not you think he should get asylum, I want you to put that aside for a moment.
不管他的庇护申请是什么，也不管你是否认为他应该获得庇护，我希望你暂时把它放在一边。
He's in the middle of a legal process that he followed our laws to participate in.
他正在遵循我们的法律参与法律程序。
I cannot overstate how crazy it is that he and others got picked up and shipped away, like we just pretended due process doesn't exist anymore.
我无法夸大他和其他人被抓起来并被运走是多么疯狂，就像我们假装正当程序不再存在一样。
Normally, someone like Mikael would present all his evidence to a judge-- documents, testimony.
通常，像米凯尔这样的人会向法官出示所有证据——文件、证词。
And then the judge would decide if under our law Mikael could stay or if he should be deported.
然后法官将决定根据我们的法律，米凯尔是否可以留下来，或者是否应该被驱逐出境。
That's what due process is, getting to stand in court and prove who you are, where you should be.
这就是正当程序，站在法庭上证明你是谁，你应该在哪里。
Without it, the government could send anyone to CECOT.
没有它，政府就可以将任何人送往 CECOT。
Without due process, you have no say.
没有正当程序，你就没有发言权。
Immediately after seeing the head shaving video, Mari gets herself together and calls for help, calls Mikael's lawyer.
看到剃头视频后，玛丽立即振作起来并寻求帮助，并给米凯尔的律师打电话。
She's like, the lawyer will know what to do.
她就像，律师会知道该怎么做。
The lawyer does not know what to do.
律师不知道该怎么办。
The lawyer is in shock.
律师很震惊。
She told me she's never seen anything like this in over 20 years of legal practice.
她告诉我，她在20多年的法律实践中从未见过这样的事情。
She can't get a hold of Mikael at all.
她根本无法联系到米凯尔。
The next day is his next hearing with the judge.
第二天是他与法官的下一次听证会。
The lawyer told me that during that hearing, the judge kept calling Mikael's name.
律师告诉我，在那次听证会上，法官一直喊着米凯尔的名字。
Subero?
苏贝罗？
Subero?
苏贝罗？
Where is Subero?
苏贝罗在哪里？
The detention center didn't know.
看守所不知道。
The ICE attorney didn't know.
ICE 律师并不知道。
Mari was there listening in on Zoom.
Mari 正在现场通过 Zoom 监听。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter They were waiting for Mikael to come on the video call that they were doing for the correctional facility where he was, which is in Pennsylvania.
[西班牙语] 口译员 他们正在等待 Mikael 参加他们为他所在的宾夕法尼亚州惩教所进行的视频通话。
Mikael never came out.
米凯尔始终没有出来。
The cops would say nothing.
警察不会说什么。
The cops wouldn't give a reason.
警察不肯给出理由。
All they would say was that they were looking for him.
他们只会说他们在找他。
Whoa, so no one in the court knew where he was, either?
哇哦，所以法庭上也没有人知道他在哪里？
No. Nadia Reiman Throughout this story, I felt a lot like Mari, turning to scholars, to lawyers, to think tanks that track immigration for decades to ask, what exactly is this?
不。纳迪亚·雷曼（Nadia Reiman）在整个故事中，我感觉很像马里（Mari），向学者、律师、数十年来追踪移民的智库询问，这到底是什么？
What's happening?
发生什么事了？
And the response, over and over again, was they have no idea.
而他们一次又一次的回答是不知道。
Everyone is wading into new water.
每个人都在涉入新水。
Mari hasn't heard from Mikael in over a month.
马里已经一个多月没有收到米凯尔的消息了。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter Sometimes I get to work, and I'm doing whatever, and I'm like, oh, I feel like calling Mikael to see what's going on at the barber shop.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 有时我去工作，我正在做任何事情，我想，哦，我想打电话给 Mikael 看看理发店发生了什么事。
And then, obviously, I remember that he's not here anymore, that I can't do that.
然后，显然，我记得他已经不在这里了，我不能这样做。
When was the last time a moment like that happened for you?
你最后一次经历这样的时刻是什么时候？
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter Literally every day that I go to work.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 从字面上看，我每天上班。
In the mornings, it's always the first thing that comes to my mind.
每天早上，它总是我脑子里第一个想到的事情。
Because every day when I get to work, it's the time he would call me always to say, are you OK?
因为每天我上班的时候，他都会打电话给我，问我，你还好吗？
Did you have breakfast-- to see if I had breakfast.
你吃早餐了吗——看看我有没有吃早餐。
I always-- like, I wait for the call.
我总是——喜欢，我等待电话。
I hear the phone ringing, and I'm like, it's Mikael, and like that.
我听到电话铃响了，我就想，是 Mikael 打来的，就这样。
And that's what it's like.
事情就是这样。
And it's like-- it's like the hardest thing.
这就像——这就像是最难的事情。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter She can't stay in their apartment anymore because the raid was so intense.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 她不能再留在他们的公寓了，因为突袭是如此激烈。
She didn't want to touch his stuff, because she kept thinking he'd be back.
她不想碰他的东西，因为她一直以为他会回来。
Some days, she says, she doesn't know what to do with herself.
她说，有时她不知道自己该怎么办。
She feels angry all the time, tricked.
她总是感到愤怒、被欺骗。
Disappearing people in the middle of the night, taking them someplace where you can't see them or talk to them, that's not a US thing.
在半夜让人们消失，把他们带到一个你看不到他们或与他们交谈的地方，这不是美国的事情。
She never thought something like this could happen here.
她没想到这里会发生这样的事。
Many people didn't.
很多人没有。
Nadia Reiman is an editor on our show.
纳迪亚·雷曼 (Nadia Reiman) 是我们节目的编辑。
Interpreting for this story by Anayansi Diaz-Cortes.
本故事由 Anayansi Diaz-Cortes 翻译。
Our program was produced today by Valerie Kipnis.
我们今天的节目由瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis) 制作。
Our executive editor Emanuele Berry edited the show.
我们的执行编辑 Emanuele Berry 编辑了该节目。
The people who put together today's program include Phia Bennin, Mike Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Emanuel Dzotsi, Angela Gervasi, Cassie Howley, Seth Lind, Tobin Low, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Ryan Rumery, Marisa Robertson-Textor, Alissa Shipp, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Laura Starecheski, Nancy Updike, James Williamson, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Phia Bennin、Mike Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Emanuel Dzotsi、Angela Gervasi、Cassie Howley、Seth Lind、Tobin Low、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Ryan Rumery、Marisa Robertson-Textor、Alissa Shipp、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Laura Starecheski、Nancy Updike、James Williamson 和吴黛安.
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive producer is Ira Glass.
我们的执行制片人是艾拉·格拉斯。
Special thanks today to Yael Even Or, Jeremy Ashkenas, Aaron Reicklin-Melnick, Muzaffar Chishti, Stephen Yale-Loehr, Julie Turkewitz, Carolina Arias Ipys, Dara Lind, Josbelk Gonzalez Mejias, Galya Walt, Breaking the Silence, and the Chronicle for Higher Education.
今天特别感谢 Yael Even Or、Jeremy Ashkenas、Aaron Reicklin-Melnick、Muzaffar Chishti、Stephen Yale-Loehr、Julie Turkewitz、Carolina Arias Ipys、Dara Lind、Josbelk Gonzalez Mejias、Galya Walt、打破沉默和高等教育纪事报。
Casting help from Sabrina Hyman.
萨布丽娜·海曼 (Sabrina Hyman) 为选角提供帮助。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
If you become a This American Life partner, you will get bonus episodes, ad-free listening, and more.
如果您成为《This American Life》的合作伙伴，您将获得奖励剧集、无广告收听等。
The latest bonus episode is an Ask Me Anything episode, where Ira Glass answered questions sent in by subscribers.
最新的奖励剧集是“问我任何事”剧集，艾拉·格拉斯回答了订阅者发送的问题。
To hear it, and get all the other perks, and, most importantly, help us keep making the show, go to thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.
要听到它，并获得所有其他福利，最重要的是，帮助我们继续制作节目，请访问 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners。
That link is also in the show notes.
该链接也在节目注释中。
Thanks, as always, to my boss, Ira Glass.
一如既往地感谢我的老板艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
He went to a Hugh Grant convention this year.
今年他参加了休·格兰特的会议。
Everyone dressed up-- Four Weddings and a Funeral Hugh, Notting Hill Hugh, Love Actually Hugh.
每个人都盛装打扮——《四个婚礼和一个葬礼》休、《诺丁山休》、《真爱至上》休。
We're talking about at least 18,000 grants.
我们谈论的是至少 18,000 笔资助。
I'm Chana Joffe-Walt.
我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特。
We'll be back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。