855: That’s a Weird Thing to Lie About - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #855 | February 28, 2025 855: That’s a Weird Thing to Lie About Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 855 集 | 2025 年 2 月 28 日 855：这是一件奇怪的谎言 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Kasey is autistic, and she says it's puzzling, neurotypical people and how much they lie.
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯·凯西 (Ira Glass Kasey) 患有自闭症，她说这令人费解，神经质的人以及他们撒谎的程度。
And she's not alone.
而且她并不孤单。
Yeah.
是的。
In our support groups, that issue comes up a lot.
在我们的支持小组中，这个问题经常出现。
For some people, it's very puzzling, and they just don't understand the concept.
对于某些人来说，这是非常令人困惑的，他们只是不理解这个概念。
And especially because so often, lies are just completely transparent.
尤其是因为很多时候，谎言是完全透明的。
She gave me this example.
她给了我这个例子。
When she worked in HR, they caught this guy who was having an inappropriate relationship with his administrative assistant.
当她在人力资源部工作时，他们抓到了这个与行政助理有不正当关系的人。
A naked picture of her was on his work computer.
他的工作电脑上有一张她的裸照。
And still, he denied it, kept lying.
但他仍然否认这一点，并继续撒谎。
It's just baffling to me.
这让我感到困惑。
It's just-- it's inexplicable.
这只是——这令人费解。
I don't understand the continuing in the lie.
我不明白谎言的继续。
And I don't understand why they haven't learned at an earlier point that it's not productive, that this is not an effective tool for you.
我不明白为什么他们没有尽早了解到它没有生产力，这对你来说不是一个有效的工具。
Looking around on Reddit, we found a lot of autistic people writing about this exact thing.
在 Reddit 上环顾四周，我们发现很多自闭症患者都在写关于这件事的文章。
Here's somebody who posted saying, "I recently realized that a lot of things I had always categorized as lies are not seen that way by NT people--" neurotypical people.
有人发帖说，“我最近意识到，很多我一直归类为谎言的事情，在 NT 人——”神经质的人身上并不这么看。
"Like, they say it, knowing it isn't literally true, but they don't think of it as a lie because they don't expect others to believe it.
“就像，他们这么说，知道这实际上不是真的，但他们并不认为这是谎言，因为他们不希望别人相信它。
For example, here are some things that I always thought were weird, inexplicable lies--" and then there's a list.
例如，这里有一些我一直认为很奇怪、莫名其妙的谎言——”然后有一个清单。
"It was great to see you.
“很高兴见到你。
Let's do this again soon.
让我们很快再做一次。
I hope you have a great holiday.
我希望你有一个愉快的假期。
You are so funny.
你真有趣。
I love your hairdo.
我喜欢你的发型。
Where did you buy that dress?
那件衣服你在哪里买的？
I need to get one, too.
我也需要买一个。
Oh, wow, that's very interesting.
哦，哇，这很有趣。
See you later."
稍后见。”
They continue-- "I've decided to start translating a lot of NT chatter from its literal meaning into a simple form of, 'Hello, I want you to see me as friendly so I am making friendly noises.'"
他们继续说——“我决定开始将新约中的许多闲聊从字面意思翻译成简单的形式，‘你好，我希望你看到我很友好，所以我发出友好的声音。’”
Do you relate?
你有联系吗？
Kasey I do.
凯西 我愿意。
The white lies and the polite fictions and the pleasantries that go along with small talk, a lot of autistic people really do perceive that as lying.
善意的谎言、礼貌的虚构以及闲聊中的寒暄，很多自闭症患者确实认为这是谎言。
For me, I recognize that it's a cultural structure, rather than an intent to deceive.
对我来说，我认识到这是一种文化结构，而不是欺骗的意图。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Ira Glass She remembers when she realized just how widespread lying is for neurotypical people.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 她记得当她意识到撒谎对于神经质人士来说是多么普遍的时候。
She was a teenager, and she says she was heavyset, from a heavyset family.
她当时还是个十几岁的孩子，她说自己身材魁梧，来自一个身材魁梧的家庭。
That's pretty normal to me.
这对我来说很正常。
I am not offended by or afraid of the word "fat." But a lot of the people that were my friends were very afraid of that word.
我并不被“胖子”这个词冒犯或害怕。但我的很多朋友都非常害怕这个词。
And so they would say to me, oh, you're not fat.
所以他们会对我说，哦，你不胖。
And for me, that was just baffling.
对我来说，这简直令人困惑。
I understood that they were trying to be kind, but I couldn't fathom how they thought that would actually be believed or helpful.
我明白他们是想表现得友善，但我无法理解他们如何认为这实际上会被相信或有帮助。
I mean, it's a demonstrable fact.
我的意思是，这是一个显而易见的事实。
[LAUGHS] I have a mirror.
[笑]我有一面镜子。
I know what I look like.
我知道我的样子。
It started to make me clue in to this idea of white lies and polite fiction.
它开始让我了解善意的谎言和礼貌小说的想法。
And then with the teenage politics, you start to see people who-- oh, I'm so happy to see you.
然后在青少年政治中，你开始看到人们——哦，我很高兴见到你。
Awesome.
惊人的。
Let's hang out.
我们出去玩吧。
And then behind the person's back-- oh, my god, I can't stand her.
然后在那个人背后——哦，天啊，我受不了她了。
She is just the worst.
她只是最糟糕的一个。
So I started to catch on that this was not just widespread, but that this was considered appropriate behavior.
所以我开始意识到这不仅是普遍现象，而且被认为是适当的行为。
Now, of course she's used to it.
现在，她当然已经习惯了。
When I talked to her, she was just about to go to a conference where she knew people who barely remember her, who'd be saying, so great to see you, and not mean a word of it.
当我和她谈话时，她正要去参加一个会议，她认识的人几乎不记得她了，他们会说，很高兴见到你，但并不是真心的。
And she's OK with that.
她对此表示同意。
She ignores it, moves on.
她无视它，继续前进。
But she tries to keep things more strictly truthful.
但她试图让事情更加真实。
So you never lie?
所以你从不说谎？
Kasey I won't say never.
凯西 我不会说永远不会。
I think of myself as sort of practicing radical honesty with tact.
我认为自己正在以机智的方式实践彻底的诚实。
So I do my best to tell the truth in all circumstances.
所以我在任何情况下都会尽力说实话。
I have to say, if that's your philosophy, I find it so interesting to think about, what are the very few examples where you do let yourself lie, where you feel like that's the right thing to do?
我不得不说，如果这就是你的哲学，我觉得思考起来很有趣，有哪些极少数的例子让你自己撒谎，你觉得这是正确的做法？
What are those?
那些是什么？
So from a moral and scriptural basis, one is justified to lie to protect others from individuals who mean to do them harm.
因此，从道德和圣经的角度来看，一个人有理由撒谎来保护他人免受那些有意伤害他们的人的伤害。
So, for example, there was someone in my life who was in a domestic violence situation, and I helped her to get to a safe place.
举例来说，我生活中有人遭受家庭暴力，我帮助她到达安全的地方。
And when her husband called, I said, I have no idea where she is.
当她丈夫打电话时，我说，我不知道她在哪里。
It's quite simply a lie, but it is a lie that is fully justified because it is information to which he is not entitled for the protection of life and limb of myself or another person.
这只是一个谎言，但这是一个完全合理的谎言，因为他无权为了保护我自己或他人的生命和肢体而获得这些信息。
That is obviously a very hard example to argue against.
这显然是一个很难反驳的例子。
She told me another one where her dog pooped all over her car, and she was late to a meeting.
她告诉我另一件事，她的狗在她的车上拉屎，而她开会迟到了。
And when she got there, she did not tell the truth about why.
当她到达那里时，她并没有说出原因的真相。
She didn't want to gross anybody out.
她不想让任何人感到恶心。
Also, none of their business.
而且，不关他们的事。
Otherwise, she almost always picks honesty.
否则，她几乎总是选择诚实。
When kids picked on her nieces about their weight, they came to her crying and asked, am I fat?
当孩子们挑剔她的侄女们的体重时，他们哭着跑来问她，我胖吗？
And she says, it was really hard not to say the kinds of lies that people said to her when she was their age.
她说，当她这个年纪的时候，人们对她说的那些谎言真的很难不说。
But she didn't.
但她没有。
She said, let's talk about your body and being fat.
她说，我们来谈谈你的身体和肥胖吧。
There's nothing wrong with being fat.
胖一点也没什么不好。
Honesty, she says, is the only way to vulnerability and intimacy, which, of course.
她说，诚实是获得脆弱和亲密的唯一途径，当然，这是如此。
I was very curious how she does not lie at work.
我很好奇她在工作时怎么不说谎。
I definitely do most of my lying on the job.
我的大部分谎言肯定是在工作中做的。
Not here, on the air, of course, where everything I say is deeply, thoroughly fact-checked, but just around the office, just white lies.
当然不是在这里，在广播中，我所说的一切都经过深入、彻底的事实核查，但就在办公室里，只是善意的谎言。
I don't understand how you get by without a little pretending now and then in a workplace.
我不明白在工作场所如果不时不时地假装一下，你是怎么过得去的。
I don't actually understand how you would get things done.
我实际上不明白你将如何完成事情。
Kasey has none of that.
凯西没有这些。
OK, let me ask you about a lie that I tell all the time at work.
好吧，让我问你一个我在工作中经常说的谎言。
OK?
好的？
At the end of pretty much any interview I ever do, I thank the person, and I tell them how great they were, even if they were not great, even if they were not good talkers, even if they were not able to describe the thing that we'd hoped that they would describe.
在我做过的几乎所有采访结束时，我都会感谢这个人，并告诉他们他们有多伟大，即使他们并不伟大，即使他们不是一个善于言谈的人，即使他们无法描述我们希望他们描述的事情。
That is what I say because it seems to me to be such a vulnerable thing to ask people to come and talk in an interview, and they don't know how it's going to go.
我之所以这么说，是因为在我看来，邀请人们来接受采访是一件非常脆弱的事情，而且他们不知道事情会如何进行。
And it's just kind of a nerve-racking thing that it seems just kind to say, you did a good job.
似乎只是善意地说，你做得很好，这真是一件令人伤脑筋的事情。
I think that most of the time, if the person you're speaking to didn't do well, that they're going to know it.
我认为大多数时候，如果与你交谈的人做得不好，他们会知道的。
And so the polite fiction is not going to reassure them.
因此，礼貌的小说不会让他们放心。
So what is the honest thing you could say in that situation?
那么在这种情况下你能说的诚实的话是什么？
The honest thing is, coming to do this, to have these conversations and be open and vulnerable is a big thing.
老实说，来做这件事、进行这些对话并保持开放和脆弱是一件大事。
And I really appreciate that you did it and that you made the effort.
我真的很感激你做到了这一点并付出了努力。
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
That's honest.
那是诚实的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
It's honest, and it acknowledges them.
这是诚实的，并且承认他们。
I wasn't expecting you to really say something so actually useful.
我没想到你真的会说出这么有用的话。
[LAUGHTER] I'll do you the favor of being honest about that.
[笑声]我会诚实地告诉你这一点。
I appreciate it.
我很感激。
Ira Glass One of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you today is that we're doing a whole episode of our show about inexplicable lies, lies that you just think, why lie about that?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：我今天想和你们谈话的原因之一是，我们正在制作一整集关于莫名其妙的谎言的节目，那些你只是想的谎言，为什么要撒谎？
In your experience, what percentage of lies are unnecessary lies?
根据你的经验，不必要的谎言占多大比例？
Can I say 100%?
我可以说100%吗？
I really don't think, except in extreme circumstances, that Anne Frank is hidden in my attic situation, I don't think that lying is necessary.
我真的不认为，除非在极端情况下，安妮·弗兰克就藏在我的阁楼里，我不认为撒谎是必要的。
I think if we have honest, tactful interaction, we're always going to be the better for it.
我认为，如果我们进行诚实、机智的互动，我们总是会变得更好。
Yeah.
是的。
All right.
好的。
Thank you so much for doing this.
非常感谢您这样做。
It's my pleasure.
这是我的荣幸。
Ira Glass I know that it's a vulnerable thing coming in and speaking honestly.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：我知道诚实地说出来是一件很脆弱的事情。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Ira Glass And I really appreciate you doing that.
Ira Glass 我真的很感谢你这么做。
No, I can genuinely say that you were great.
不，我可以真诚地说，你很棒。
You were very straightforward, and you spoke in a real way about what you really think, which is what we want.
你说得很直白，很真实地说出了你的真实想法，这就是我们想要的。
Well, today on our program, lies that really just leave you scratching your head sometimes.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，谎言有时真的会让你摸不着头脑。
Seriously, we have some fun stories for you.
说真的，我们有一些有趣的故事给你。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
Act One, "The Real L Word." OK, so to kick things off today, we're going to revisit some recent historical events.
第一幕，“真正的拉字”。好的，今天开始，我们将回顾一些最近的历史事件。
I think that's all I'm going to say for now.
我想这就是我现在要说的全部内容。
Dana Chivvis tells what happened.
达纳·奇夫维斯讲述了发生的事情。
Liz Flock was just starting out as a reporter in 2011, living in DC, working at the Washington Post.
2011 年，莉兹·弗洛克 (Liz Flock) 刚开始担任记者，住在华盛顿特区，在《华盛顿邮报》工作。
This was the golden age of blogging and social media.
这是博客和社交媒体的黄金时代。
Instagram was just a year old, basically a toddler.
Instagram 当时才一岁，基本上还是个蹒跚学步的孩子。
Twitter was five.
推特是第五名。
And news outlets realized they could use these blossoming tools of the internet to do a hybrid version of reporting.
新闻媒体意识到他们可以利用这些蓬勃发展的互联网工具来进行混合版本的报道。
They called it "the breaking news blog." Liz was a reporter at the Washington Post's breaking news blog--
他们称之为“突发新闻博客”。莉兹是《华盛顿邮报》突发新闻博客的记者——
[LAUGHS] Very original.
[笑]非常原创。
Liz Flock Very original.
莉兹·弗洛克 非常原创。
And what was happening at that time was the Arab Spring.
当时发生的事情就是阿拉伯之春。
So I was writing about protests in countries all over the Middle East every day for months on end.
因此，我连续几个月每天都在写有关中东各国抗议活动的文章。
The job was a combination of actual reporting and aggregation, basically reading other reporters' stories and various social media accounts and repackaging it all.
这项工作是实际报道和聚合的结合，基本上是阅读其他记者的故事和各种社交媒体账户，然后重新包装。
I was doing a similar job around this time at AOL News.
大约在这个时候，我在 AOL News 做着类似的工作。
Our blog was called Surge Desk because we were supposed to create a surge of traffic for the website.
我们的博客被称为 Surge Desk，因为我们应该为网站创造激增的流量。
Only I worked at AOL News, not the Washington Post, so I was reporting on Groundhog Day in Staten Island and writing posts about how solar flares are kind of like the sun is farting.
只是我在美国在线新闻工作，而不是《华盛顿邮报》，所以我在史坦顿岛报道土拨鼠日，并撰写有关太阳耀斑如何有点像太阳放屁的文章。
Liz was writing about the Arab Spring.
莉兹正在写有关阿拉伯之春的文章。
And I was writing about all these really complicated topics, and I was really scared every day writing about them.
我正在写所有这些非常复杂的主题，我每天都非常害怕写它们。
Scared of what?
害怕什么？
Liz Flock Just at the responsibility that I had, the tremendous responsibility to write accurately and quickly about all of these really important subjects.
莉兹·弗洛克（Liz Flock）正是出于我的责任，准确而快速地写下所有这些非常重要的主题的巨大责任。
Yeah.
是的。
And it's just you and one editor, is that right?
只有您和一名编辑，对吗？
Yeah, it was me and my editor, Melissa.
是的，是我和我的编辑梅丽莎。
And we were actually the number one traffic driver for the Washington Post for a while.
事实上，我们一度是《华盛顿邮报》的头号流量司机。
So we would get about 3 million page views a month.
所以我们每个月会获得大约 300 万次页面浏览量。
And we were encouraged to keep that up.
我们被鼓励继续保持这一势头。
So--
所以——
Oh, my god.
哦，天啊。
Liz Flock --we posted as much as we could.
Liz Flock——我们尽可能多地发布了内容。
To keep up with all this from her desk in DC, she followed a bunch of social media accounts and blogs.
为了在华盛顿的办公桌上了解这一切，她关注了许多社交媒体帐户和博客。
The Arab Spring, you might remember, was one of the first big social movements to use these online tools to organize.
您可能还记得，阿拉伯之春是最早使用这些在线工具组织的大型社会运动之一。
Rightly or wrongly, it was called the "Facebook revolution."
不管正确与否，它被称为“Facebook 革命”。
One of the blogs Liz followed was written by a 35-year-old Syrian-American woman named Amina Arraf, who had recently moved back to Damascus from the US.
莉兹关注的博客之一是一位名叫阿米娜·阿拉夫 (Amina Arraf) 的 35 岁叙利亚裔美国女性撰写的，她最近从美国搬回大马士革。
Her blog was called A Gay Girl in Damascus.
她的博客名为大马士革的同性恋女孩。
She writes about her complex identity of being an out lesbian in conservative Syria, having grown up in the US.
她在书中讲述了自己在美国长大、生活在保守的叙利亚、作为一名出柜女同性恋的复杂身份。
And on the blog, she writes poetry.
她在博客上写诗。
She writes history.
她书写历史。
She writes what are basically like foreign policy op-eds.
她写的内容基本上类似于外交政策专栏。
She's openly critical of the Bashar al-Assad regime, at a time when the regime was arresting, torturing, and murdering critics and activists.
她公开批评巴沙尔·阿萨德政权，当时该政权正在逮捕、折磨和谋杀批评者和活动人士。
In one post, titled "Irony," there's a photo she's taken of a billboard.
在一篇题为“讽刺”的帖子中，有一张她拍摄的广告牌照片。
On it, Assad's smiling face and the headscratcher of a tagline, "Syria believes in you." Below the photo, Amina writes, "SURE," in all caps and multiple exclamation points.
上面有阿萨德的笑脸和令人抓狂的标语：“叙利亚相信你。”阿米娜在照片下方用全部大写字母和多个感叹号写下了“当然”。
She's provocative.
她很挑衅。
She sometimes writes more sexy poetry, I would say.
我想说，她有时会写更性感的诗。
Huh.
呵呵。
Liz Flock I forgot about this, but I went back to it, and there was one piece called "Testimony of Jasmine." And she writes, "My sex to your sex grinding in time, with sounds of the city stretched out below." And it goes on and on.
Liz Flock 我忘了这件事，但我回头一看，有一首作品叫《茉莉花的证词》。她写道：“我的性爱与你的性爱在时间中磨砺，城市的声音在下面延伸。”这种情况一直持续下去。
Legally, I can't let her read you the rest of this poem-- FCC rules.
从法律上讲，我不能让她给你读这首诗的其余部分——联邦通信委员会规定。
So a young, pretty Syrian-American lesbian taunting the brutal Assad regime.
一位年轻漂亮的叙利亚裔美国女同性恋嘲笑残暴的阿萨德政权。
It's not much surprise when the secret police show up at her house one day.
有一天，秘密警察出现在她家，这并不奇怪。
On April 26, Amina publishes a post titled "My Father the Hero." She describes a harrowing scene.
4 月 26 日，阿米娜发表了一篇题为“我的英雄父亲”的帖子。她描述了一个令人痛苦的场景。
It was the middle of the night, and these two young, muscly guys in leather jackets rang the doorbell of her family's home.
半夜，两个穿着皮夹克、肌肉发达的小伙子按响了她家的门铃。
They've come for Amina.
他们是来找阿米娜的。
They know about her blog, know that she's a lesbian.
他们知道她的博客，知道她是女同性恋。
They threaten to rape her.
他们威胁要强奸她。
But Amina's father argues with them, chides them.
但阿米娜的父亲与他们争论，责备他们。
He knows them, knows their families.
他了解他们，了解他们的家人。
He says to them, quote, "Do you know what is our family name?
他对他们说：“你们知道我们姓什么吗？
You do?
你知道吗？
Then you know where we stood when Muhammad, peace be upon him, went to Medina.
那么你知道当穆罕默德（愿主福安之）前往麦地那时我们处于什么位置。
You know who it was who liberated al-Quds.
你知道是谁解放了圣城。
You know, too, maybe, that my father fought to save this country from the foreigners." He tells them to leave, and they do.
也许你也知道，我父亲为从外国人手中拯救这个国家而奋斗。”他让他们离开，他们就离开了。
Amina's post goes viral.
阿米娜的帖子疯传。
Back in DC, Liz decides to write about it.
回到华盛顿后，莉兹决定把这件事写下来。
So the second I read her post, "My Father, My Hero," I immediately reach out to her for an interview.
因此，当我读到她的帖子“我的父亲，我的英雄”时，我立即联系她进行采访。
I mean, we were interviewing lots of activists, but she is like the dream interview because she's so interesting.
我的意思是，我们采访了很多活动人士，但她就像梦想中的采访，因为她非常有趣。
Amina emails her back, and the next day, Liz publishes a post-- "Syria blogger says she faced arrest but remains defiant." In the article, Amina tells Liz, quote, "If we want to live in a free country, we need to start acting as though we live in a free country."
阿米娜给她回复了电子邮件，第二天，莉兹发表了一篇帖子——“叙利亚博主说她面临逮捕，但仍然反抗。”在文章中，阿米娜告诉莉兹，“如果我们想生活在一个自由的国家，我们需要开始表现得就像生活在一个自由的国家一样。”
Six weeks later, Liz goes into the office.
六周后，莉兹走进办公室。
I am checking the blogs and social media, and I see that on Gay Girl in Damascus, there's a post not by Amina.
我正在查看博客和社交媒体，我发现大马士革的同性恋女孩上有一篇帖子不是阿米娜写的。
And it says, "Dear friends of Amina, I'm Amina's cousin, and I have the following information to share.
上面写着：“亲爱的阿米娜的朋友们，我是阿米娜的表弟，我有以下信息要分享。
Earlier today, at approximately 6:00 PM Damascus time, Amina was walking in the area of this bus station."
今天早些时候，大马士革时间下午 6:00 左右，阿米娜正在这个公交车站附近行走。”
The post says Amina was abducted by three government agents.
帖子称阿米娜被三名政府特工绑架。
"Then they hustled her into a red Dacia Logan with a window sticker of Bashar al-Assad."
“然后他们把她塞进一辆红色的达契亚洛根车里，车窗上贴着巴沙尔·阿萨德的贴纸。”
Hmm.
唔。
Liz Flock "The men are presumed to be members of the security services.
莉兹·弗洛克：“这些人被认为是安全部门的成员。
Amina's present location is unknown."
阿米娜目前所在位置不明。”
This was happening a lot at this point that activists were getting kind of hauled off the streets, but this was a person that I felt intimately connected to.
这种情况经常发生，活动人士被赶出街头，但我觉得与这个人有密切的联系。
Like I knew her whole story at this point.
就像我此时已经了解她的整个故事一样。
Like I had read her whole blog.
就像我读过她的整个博客一样。
Yeah.
是的。
Liz Flock And so it was really scary.
Liz Flock 所以这真的很可怕。
And obviously, as a gay woman and a woman speaking out against the regime, you're thinking that this person's dead.
显然，作为一名同性恋女性和一名公开反对政权的女性，你会认为这个人已经死了。
Homosexuality was, and still is, illegal in Syria.
同性恋在叙利亚过去和现在都是非法的。
Liz writes a post about Amina's disappearance.
莉兹写了一篇关于阿米娜失踪的文章。
So does the Washington Post's Syria correspondent, and The New York Times and The Guardian and others.
《华盛顿邮报》驻叙利亚记者、《纽约时报》和《卫报》等媒体也是如此。
Liz calls the State Department.
莉兹给国务院打电话。
They tell her they're looking into it.
他们告诉她他们正在调查此事。
A Twitter campaign gets going, #FreeAmina, and multiple Facebook groups, which get over 10,000 followers overnight.
Twitter 活动#FreeAmina 和多个 Facebook 群组开始开展，一夜之间就有超过 10,000 名粉丝。
It's a big deal.
这是一件大事。
And then--
然后——
Oh, so all of a sudden, doubts start popping up about Amina.
哦，突然间，人们开始对阿米娜产生怀疑。
It really all started very quickly.
一切真的开始得很快。
Like on the same day that she wrote that she was kidnapped or detained by security forces, or that the cousin writes that, Andy Carvin, who's NPR's Twitter senior strategist and had this huge following, basically asks, has anyone met Amina?
就像就在她写道自己被安全部队绑架或拘留的同一天，或者她的表弟写道，NPR 推特高级策略师安迪·卡文 (Andy Carvin) 拥有如此多的追随者，他基本上会问，有人见过阿米娜吗？
Has anyone actually met Amina in person, not just on the internet?
有没有人真正见过阿米娜本人，而不仅仅是在互联网上？
It's a good question.
这是一个好问题。
In fact, when Liz emailed Amina asking for an interview, Amina had responded that for her own safety, she couldn't talk on the phone, so Liz had sent her questions by email.
事实上，当莉兹给阿米娜发电子邮件要求采访时，阿米娜回复说，为了她自己的安全，她不能打电话，所以莉兹通过电子邮件发送了她的问题。
Do you remember the "oh, fuck" moment that you had when you realized people were doubting her identity?
你还记得当你意识到人们在怀疑她的身份时你的“哦，操”那一刻吗？
Yes.
是的。
I remember Andy asking that question on Twitter, and I remember thinking, wow, if this person isn't real, I have interviewed them saying that she is and given them a platform and caused this blog to probably increase in popularity.
我记得安迪在 Twitter 上问过这个问题，我记得我在想，哇，如果这个人不是真实的，我采访过他们说她是真实的，并给了他们一个平台，使这个博客可能会更受欢迎。
And yeah, that's a really scary moment as a super young journalist.
是的，作为一名超级年轻的记者，这真是一个可怕的时刻。
I don't know if you remember this New Yorker cartoon from 1993 where it says, on the internet, no one knows you're a dog, and it has this dog at the computer.
我不知道你是否还记得1993年的《纽约客》漫画，上面写着，在互联网上，没有人知道你是一只狗，而且电脑上有这只狗。
[LAUGHTER] So obviously, people were thinking about this all the way back to the '90s, but I know I wasn't.
[笑声] 很明显，人们早在 90 年代就开始思考这个问题，但我知道我没有。
It's not that I was trusting everything I read online, but I think I just didn't expect this gay Syrian woman activist who was blogging like a lot of other Syrian activists that were all totally legitimate, to be someone so different.
这并不是说我相信我在网上读到的一切，但我想我只是没想到这位叙利亚同性恋女性活动家会像许多其他完全合法的叙利亚活动家一样写博客，是一个如此不同的人。
And yeah, I mean, as the story progressed, it got creepier and creepier.
是的，我的意思是，随着故事的进展，它变得越来越令人毛骨悚然。
The Wall Street Journal reported that the photo of Amina on A Gay Girl in Damascus was actually a photo of a woman named Jelena Lecic, who is of Croatian descent and was living in London at the time.
《华尔街日报》报道称，《大马士革的同性恋女孩》中阿米娜的照片实际上是一位名叫耶莱娜·莱西奇 (Jelena Lecic) 的女性的照片，她是克罗地亚裔，当时住在伦敦。
So Liz and her editor, Melissa Bell, start trying to figure out who Amina actually is.
因此，莉兹和她的编辑梅丽莎·贝尔开始试图找出阿米娜到底是谁。
They look up the IP address of the Gay Girl blog.
他们查找 Gay Girl 博客的 IP 地址。
It leads back to Scotland, to the University of Edinburgh.
它通向苏格兰，到达爱丁堡大学。
And they get a mailing address for Amina from one of her online friends.
他们从阿米娜的一位网上朋友那里得到了她的邮寄地址。
It's a house in Georgia, the state, not the country, owned by an American couple who were studying in Scotland.
这是乔治亚州的一栋房子，乔治亚州是一个州，而不是一个国家，业主是一对在苏格兰学习的美国夫妇。
They narrow in on the wife, a woman named Britta.
他们锁定了妻子，一位名叫布里塔的女人。
Britta was studying Syrian economic development.
布里塔正在研究叙利亚的经济发展。
She had written about Syria for a Quaker group that she was the head of.
她曾为一个由她领导的贵格会团体撰写有关叙利亚的文章。
And she had even posted photos of her visiting Syria with her husband, and she had posted this photo on the photo website Picasa, showing a billboard of a smiling Syrian President Bashar al-Assad with the slogan "Syria believes in you."
她甚至还发布了与丈夫一起访问叙利亚的照片，并将这张照片发布在图片网站Picasa上，展示了叙利亚总统巴沙尔·阿萨德微笑的广告牌，上面写着“叙利亚相信你”的口号。
"Syria believes in you." It's the same photo from Amina's blog post titled "Irony."
“叙利亚相信你。”这是阿米娜题为“讽刺”的博客文章中的同一张照片。
I mean, it's not a photo that exists, like, thousands of times on the internet.
我的意思是，这不是一张在互联网上存在数千次的照片。
It is only in these two places.
也仅限于这两个地方。
And we're like, oh, my god, this is the exact same photo.
我们就像，哦，天哪，这是同一张照片。
That's a smoking gun.
这是确凿无疑的证据。
You never get that clear of an answer.
你永远不会得到那么清晰的答案。
Totally!
完全！
Totally.
完全。
Dana Chivvis So they got to call Britta, but they can't find Britta's phone number.
Dana Chivvis 所以他们必须给 Britta 打电话，但他们找不到 Britta 的电话号码。
But they do find Britta's mom's phone number.
但他们确实找到了布丽塔妈妈的电话号码。
They call her up.
他们给她打电话。
We explain the whole situation to her.
我们向她解释了整个情况。
I remember thinking, this is so bizarre.
我记得我当时想，这太奇怪了。
Like, I'm sorry, but I think that your daughter is this person posting on this blog pretending to be a lesbian woman in Syria.
就像，我很抱歉，但我认为你的女儿就是在这个博客上假装自己是叙利亚女同性恋者的人。
And to her credit, she was not like, please leave me alone.
值得赞扬的是，她并不喜欢“请别打扰我”。
She basically said, wow, this is so interesting.
她基本上说，哇，这太有趣了。
And I don't think it's Britta.
我不认为这是布丽塔。
I think it's Tom.
我认为是汤姆。
And she was like, he's so involved emotionally with Syria.
她说，他对叙利亚的感情如此深厚。
His interest has evolved from there.
他的兴趣就是从那里发展起来的。
And she even said, Britta complains about him spending his whole day on the computer.
她甚至说，布丽塔抱怨他整天对着电脑。
Aha!
啊哈！
One of those husbands.
其中一位丈夫。
What they learned about Tom-- he's 40 years old, a Middle East fanatic, obsessed with the Israeli-Palestine conflict.
他们对汤姆的了解是：他今年 40 岁，是一名中东狂热分子，痴迷于以色列和巴勒斯坦冲突。
He's getting his master's degree at the University of Edinburgh.
他正在爱丁堡大学攻读硕士学位。
There's more.
还有更多。
We find that Tom's cat is named Meowmar J.
我们发现汤姆的猫名叫 Meowmar J。
Katdafi, which is basically the Libyan leader, Muammar Gadhafi's name.
卡扎菲，这基本上是利比亚领导人穆阿迈尔·卡扎菲的名字。
It's just getting ridiculous at this point, to be honest.
老实说，现在这一切都变得荒谬了。
And then we find one more thing.
然后我们又发现了一件事。
And that is we find that Amina gave a five star review to Tom's ESL school that he has in Atlanta.
我们发现阿米娜对汤姆在亚特兰大的 ESL 学校给予了五星级评价。
[LAUGHS] Liz Flock I know.
[笑]莉兹·弗洛克我知道。
I know.
我知道。
And this is when it starts to just feel like, oh, my god, this guy is absurd.
就在这时，我开始感觉，哦，天哪，这家伙太荒谬了。
[LAUGHS] Liz Flock So as "Amina A," Amina writes, "Great school, great teachers.
[笑] Liz Flock 阿米娜写道，“伟大的学校，伟大的老师。
This is probably the best value for anyone who wants to learn English in Atlanta."
对于任何想在亚特兰大学习英语的人来说，这可能是最有价值的。”
Oh, god.
哦，上帝。
OK, one last important detail about Tom's extracurricular activities.
好的，关于汤姆的课外活动的最后一个重要细节。
So Amina is super active online, and part of that is flirting with women.
阿米娜在网上非常活跃，其中一部分就是与女性调情。
She's not just writing lesbian erotica.
她不只是在写女同性恋情色小说。
She's on dating sites.
她在约会网站上。
She's had an online girlfriend in Canada for the last six months.
过去六个月，她在加拿大有一个网上女友。
The girlfriend started one of the Facebook campaigns to free Amina.
这位女友发起了一场 Facebook 活动，以释放阿米娜。
And Amina--
还有阿米娜——
She's also flirting and writing on the blog of this person, Paula Brooks, who has a very popular website about being lesbian called LezGetReal.
她还在这个人 Paula Brooks 的博客上调情和写作，后者有一个非常受欢迎的关于女同性恋的网站，名为 LezGetReal。
Nice.
好的。
LezGetReal.com, for those of you who don't remember the sapphic offerings of the internet in the year 2011, was a website where a variety of writers blogged about lesbianism and the lesbian news of the day.
对于那些不记得 2011 年互联网上的女同性恋产品的人来说，LezGetReal.com 是一个网站，许多作家在博客上发表有关女同性恋和当今女同性恋新闻的博客。
Amina had written a bunch on LezGetReal.com.
Amina 在 LezGetReal.com 上写了很多文章。
And the founder, Paula Brooks, had encouraged her to start A Gay Girl in Damascus that winter.
那年冬天，创始人保拉·布鲁克斯 (Paula Brooks) 鼓励她在大马士革创办“同性恋女孩”。
And, Paula told Liz, they'd had a little online fling.
而且，宝拉告诉莉兹，他们在网上发生了一些风流韵事。
Paula and Amina spoke all the time online and even were engaging in a relationship, that it wasn't clear how flirty it was, slash sexual it was.
宝拉和阿米娜一直在网上说话，甚至正在谈恋爱，但不清楚到底有多调情，有多色情。
I think it seems like it was definitely romantic/sexual.
我认为这绝对是浪漫/性的。
And this is over email?
这是通过电子邮件吗？
Or they're like--
或者他们就像——
This is all online, like email and blog posts and corresponding about the blog posts.
这些都是在线的，例如电子邮件和博客文章以及有关博客文章的对应内容。
Liz explained to Paula what was going on with Amina.
莉兹向宝拉解释了阿米娜的情况。
Paula was outraged [CHUCKLES] that this person was pretending to be a lesbian, this man was pretending to be a lesbian.
宝拉（Paula）对这个人假装是女同性恋，这个男人假装是女同性恋感到愤怒。
LezGetReal.com posted an apology to readers for publishing 19 articles Amina had supposedly written.
LezGetReal.com 因发表了据称是阿米娜撰写的 19 篇文章而向读者道歉。
Time to confront Tom.
是时候面对汤姆了。
Liz reaches him on the phone.
莉兹通过电话联系到了他。
He's on vacation with his wife in Istanbul.
他和妻子在伊斯坦布尔度假。
And I remember they're laughing a lot.
我记得他们笑得很开心。
Basically, they laugh off the idea that either of one of them could be Amina.
基本上，他们一笑置之，认为他们中的任何一个都可能是阿米娜。
Hmm.
唔。
Liz Flock And Tom is kind of sarcastically laughing at me.
莉兹·弗洛克和汤姆有点讽刺地嘲笑我。
And he says something like, look, if I'm the genius who pulled this off, I would just say, yes, it's me, and I would write a book.
他说，看，如果我是成功实现这一目标的天才，我只会说，是的，是我，我会写一本书。
"The genius." [LAUGHS] Liz Flock Genius.
“天才。” [笑]莉兹·弗洛克真是个天才。
Yeah.
是的。
Liz Flock And then I went through all the connections we had, which at this point were, like, 15 different connections.
Liz Flock 然后我回顾了我们拥有的所有联系，此时大约有 15 个不同的联系。
And I think we called him a second day in a row.
我想我们已经连续第二天给他打电话了。
And then he started to get aggressive with us.
然后他开始对我们变得咄咄逼人。
Hmm.
唔。
Liz Flock And he said, thanks a lot for tracking us down, and hung up on me.
莉兹·弗洛克 他说，非常感谢你找到我们，然后就挂断了我的电话。
Other reporters had figured it out, too.
其他记者也明白了这一点。
Liz and Melissa decide to run with the story that A Gay Girl in Damascus was actually Tom, a white dude living in Scotland.
莉兹和梅丽莎决定讲述一个故事：大马士革的一个同性恋女孩实际上是汤姆，一个住在苏格兰的白人。
But before they can publish, Tom beats them to it.
但在他们发表之前，汤姆抢先了他们。
He confesses in a post on A Gay Girl.
他在《同性恋女孩》的帖子中承认了这一点。
And the title of the blog is changed from A Gay Girl in Damascus to-- let me find it-- "A hoax that got way out of hand.
博客的标题从《大马士革的同性恋女孩》改为——让我找到——“一个失控的骗局。
I never meant to hurt anyone."
我从来没有想过要伤害任何人。”
Hmm.
唔。
It's less pithy than A Gay Girl in Damascus.
它不如《大马士革的同性恋女孩》简洁。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, actually, he retitles it A Hoax.
好吧，实际上，他将其重新命名为“骗局”。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
[CHUCKLES] Liz Flock And then there's that subtitle, so.
[咯咯笑] Liz Flock 然后就是那个副标题，所以。
Tom writes the quintessential non-apology apology, says that while the narrative voice might have been fictional, he was describing a very real situation on the ground in Damascus, and he doesn't think he harmed anyone.
汤姆写了一份典型的非道歉道歉信，他说虽然叙述的声音可能是虚构的，但他描述的是大马士革当地的一个非常真实的情况，他不认为自己伤害了任何人。
Maybe you saw the whole thing coming, internet scams being what they are these days.
也许您已经看到了整个事情的发生，网络诈骗就是现在的样子。
Maybe you're thinking, hey, this whole story is a scam.
也许你在想，嘿，这整个故事都是一个骗局。
I can't believe I paid no dollars for this.
我不敢相信我没有为此付出任何美元。
But calm down a second.
但冷静一下。
There's more.
还有更多。
Liz and her editor, Melissa, published their story on Sunday, six days after Amina was supposedly abducted.
莉兹和她的编辑梅丽莎在周日发表了他们的故事，即阿米娜据称被绑架六天后。
Their headline is "A Gay Girl in Damascus Comes Clean." After they post their article, Liz and Melissa are talking with a more senior editor.
他们的标题是“大马士革的同性恋女孩坦白”。莉兹和梅丽莎发表文章后，正在与一位更资深的编辑交谈。
Everyone's pretty happy with the story.
每个人都对这个故事很满意。
But there's something still nagging at Liz, a detail she can't get out of her head.
但有件事仍然困扰着莉兹，一个她无法摆脱的细节。
It has to do with that other lesbian she interviewed, Paula Brooks, from LezGetReal.com.
这与她采访的另一位女同性恋者、来自 LezGetReal.com 的保拉·布鲁克斯有关。
She says to her editors--
她对她的编辑说——
So I interviewed Paula, but I actually didn't interview Paula because she's deaf.
所以我采访了宝拉，但实际上我没有采访宝拉，因为她是聋子。
And I talked to her father because she's deaf.
我和她父亲谈过，因为她聋了。
And he said she can't speak on the phone.
他说她不能打电话。
And her father weirdly knew a lot about the story.
奇怪的是，她的父亲对这个故事了解很多。
And basically now I'm doubting that everyone is real.
基本上现在我怀疑每个人都是真实的。
Do you guys think that Paula Brooks is also not real?
你们认为保拉·布鲁克斯也不是真实的吗？
[CHUCKLES] Liz had emailed with Paula Brooks.
[咯咯笑]莉兹已经和保拉·布鲁克斯发了电子邮件。
Paula had sent Liz a photo of her driver's license as proof of identity, but Liz had only ever spoken with Paula's dad.
宝拉向莉兹发送了一张驾驶执照的照片作为身份证明，但莉兹只与宝拉的父亲说过话。
It's the exact same thing as with Amina.
这和阿米娜的情况一模一样。
Like, I can't talk on the phone, and so I'll have to do it in this alternate way.
就像，我不能打电话，所以我必须用这种替代方式来做。
And but in this case, I'm deaf.
但在这种情况下，我聋了。
And I didn't want to doubt Paula being deaf, but the dad was so weird.
我不想怀疑宝拉是聋子，但爸爸太奇怪了。
Right.
正确的。
Liz Flock And now I'm basically like, is every single person on the internet actually just a white dude pretending to be someone else?
Liz Flock 现在我基本上想，互联网上的每个人实际上都只是一个假装成其他人的白人吗？
[CHUCKLING] So instead of celebrating a great scoop outing Tom as Amina, Liz dove straight into investigating Paula Brooks.
[咯咯笑]所以，莉兹并没有庆祝汤姆扮演阿米娜的精彩独家新闻，而是直接开始调查保拉·布鲁克斯。
[SIGHS] So I call back the dad, and I basically say, I know you're Paula Brooks.
[叹气]所以我给爸爸回了电话，我基本上说，我知道你是保拉·布鲁克斯。
I think we just went straight for it.
我想我们只是直奔目标。
Maybe we said, are you Paula Brooks?
也许我们会说，你是宝拉·布鲁克斯吗？
And he basically just said, yes.
他基本上只是说，是的。
Oh, what?
哦，什么？
Liz Flock My name is Bill Graber.
莉兹·弗洛克 我的名字是比尔·格雷伯。
Yep.
是的。
[CHUCKLING] He said, I'm Bill Graber.
[咯咯笑]他说，我是比尔·格雷伯。
Then I said, who are you, Bill Graber?
然后我说，你是谁，比尔·格雷伯？
And it turned out he was a retired construction worker who lived in Ohio.
原来他是一位住在俄亥俄州的退休建筑工人。
Bill told Liz he'd had some lesbian friends who were mistreated, and he wanted to help.
比尔告诉莉兹，他有一些受到虐待的女同性恋朋友，他想提供帮助。
He also wanted a platform where he could write in support of repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell.
他还想要一个平台，让他可以写信支持废除“不问不说”。
The real Paula Brooks, Bill explained, was his partner, who didn't know he'd been using her identity online to pose as a lesbian.
比尔解释说，真正的保拉·布鲁克斯是他的伴侣，她不知道他一直在网上使用她的身份冒充女同性恋。
Basically, Bill said that by running LezGetReal, he was surfacing issues for the lesbian community and helping in that way.
比尔说，基本上，通过运营 LezGetReal，他是在为女同性恋社区解决问题并以这种方式提供帮助。
Yes.
是的。
I mean, I would have loved to get those chats between Amina and Paula, a.k.a.
我的意思是，我很想看到阿米娜和宝拉（又名：宝拉）之间的聊天内容。
Tom and Bill, two white men flirting with themselves, each thinking the other one is a lesbian.
汤姆和比尔，两个白人男子互相调情，每个人都认为对方是女同性恋。
[CHUCKLES] Liz Flock But I never got those chats, so we'll have to let our imaginations run wild on that one.
[咯咯笑] Liz Flock 但我从来没有收到过这些聊天记录，所以我们只能尽情发挥我们的想象力。
But yeah.
但是是的。
And you know what's funny?
你知道什么有趣吗？
I still remember this.
我仍然记得这一点。
I was like, Bill, how does it feel to know that you were flirting with another dude, thinking it was a lesbian?
我当时想，比尔，知道你在和另一个男人调情，还以为他是女同性恋，感觉如何？
And he was definitely put off by that.
他肯定因此被推迟了。
And he said this thing to me.
他对我说了这件事。
He was just like, it was a major sock puppet hoax crashed into another major sock puppet hoax.
他就像是，这是一个重大的袜子傀儡骗局撞上了另一个重大的袜子傀儡骗局。
For the uninitiated, a sock puppet hoax is when someone uses a false identity online.
对于外行来说，袜子傀儡骗局是指有人在网上使用虚假身份。
The day after they published their story about Tom being Amina, Liz and Melissa published another one, with the headline, "Paula Brooks, editor of LezGetReal, also a man."
就在他们发表了关于汤姆是阿米娜的故事的第二天，莉兹和梅丽莎发表了另一篇文章，标题是“保拉·布鲁克斯，LezGetReal 的编辑，也是一个男人。”
I mean, to the point.
我的意思是，说到点子上了。
At this point, you can tell by how plugged in everyone is because we don't even need to explain more than that because everyone knows what's going on and is glued to their computers.
此时，您可以通过每个人的连接程度来判断，因为我们甚至不需要解释更多，因为每个人都知道发生了什么并且都粘在他们的计算机上。
I mean, some people-- and Syrian activists in particular-- were really upset by the whole situation, especially about Gay Girl in Damascus, because it was taking needed-- it was like boy who cried wolf situation, which is like, who's going to trust Syrian activists posting about this after this situation?
我的意思是，一些人——尤其是叙利亚活动人士——对整个局势感到非常不安，尤其是大马士革的同性恋女孩，因为这是需要的——就像男孩喊狼来了，在这种情况发生后，谁会相信叙利亚活动人士发布的有关此事的信息？
By the time Tom's little lie had rolled all the way downhill, it was a pretty sizable lie with real-world consequences.
当汤姆的小谎言一路走下坡路时，它已经成为一个相当大的谎言，对现实世界产生了影响。
The Syrian government used it to suggest that everyone in the West was lying about the Assad regime's murderous tactics against activists and bloggers.
叙利亚政府用它来暗示西方每个人都在阿萨德政权对活动人士和博客作者的谋杀策略上撒谎。
They used it to suggest that gay people in Syria were really just agents of the West.
他们用它来暗示叙利亚的同性恋者实际上只是西方的代理人。
In retrospect, Amina's writing, it's so bad.
现在回想起来，阿米娜的文笔实在是太糟糕了。
Like when her father supposedly says to the secret police, "You know where we stood when Muhammad, peace be upon him, went to Medina," it's like the 1950s Hollywood version of how a Syrian man would talk.
就像她的父亲据说对秘密警察说的那样，“你知道当穆罕默德（愿主福安之）前往麦地那时我们站在什么位置”，这就像 20 世纪 50 年代好莱坞版的叙利亚男人的谈话方式。
But what was good about Amina's writing-- Tom's writing-- is that it played for emotion.
但阿米娜的写作——汤姆的写作——的优点在于它激发了情感。
It confirmed what we were all feeling here in the West, what excited us about the Arab Spring.
它证实了我们西方人的感受，以及我们对阿拉伯之春感到兴奋的原因。
Democracy was ascendant.
民主方兴未艾。
The bad guys were going down.
坏人正在倒下。
The lesbians were taking over, or whatever.
女同性恋者正在接管，或者其他什么。
Amina was the lie we all wanted.
阿米娜是我们都想要的谎言。
I reached out to Tom, Bill, and Britta for this story.
我联系了汤姆、比尔和布丽塔来了解这个故事。
Tom and Bill definitely did not want to talk to me.
汤姆和比尔绝对不想和我说话。
Britta didn't respond.
布丽塔没有回应。
But the day after he was outed, Tom did some press.
但在他被出柜的第二天，汤姆做了一些新闻报道。
He said he had wanted to wind Amina down for a while.
他说他想让阿米娜放松一段时间。
And he was going on vacation, so having her abducted was kind of his out-of-office message.
而且他要去度假，所以绑架她是他的外出信息。
The internet.
互联网。
I mean, it's-- oh, god, I know.
我的意思是，这是——哦，天哪，我知道。
And it was so fun for just a short period of time where everyone was just like, is this thing on?
在很短的一段时间内，这非常有趣，每个人都在想，这件事开始了吗？
Can I tell you about what I ate?
我可以告诉你我吃了什么吗？
[CHUCKLES] A lot's changed since then.
[笑]从那以后发生了很多变化。
The Washington Post, where Liz worked, is now owned by Jeff Bezos.
莉兹曾工作过的《华盛顿邮报》现在归杰夫·贝索斯所有。
Twitter is owned by Elon Musk.
Twitter 由埃隆·马斯克拥有。
Instagram is owned by Facebook.
Instagram 归 Facebook 所有。
Facebook has done away with fact-checking.
Facebook 已经取消了事实核查。
And the president has his own social media platform, called Truth Social, where he regularly posts falsehoods and conspiracy theories.
总统有自己的社交媒体平台，名为“Truth Social”，他经常在该平台上发布谎言和阴谋论。
It kind of makes you long for the good old days, when the internet wasn't dominated by the most powerful, and people still cared what was true and what wasn't.
这有点让你怀念过去的美好时光，那时互联网还没有被最有权势的人统治，人们仍然关心什么是真的，什么是假的。
The truth-- so retro.
事实是——太复古了。
It's a whole new world now, except over here on the dusty, old radio, where I still can't say "shit" or "piss" or "fuck" or "cunt" or "cocksucker" or "motherfucker" or "tits"-- not even "tits"-- because, of course, think of the chaos that would ensue if I did.
现在这是一个全新的世界，除了在布满灰尘的旧收音机上，我仍然不能说“狗屎”或“小便”或“他妈的”或“阴户”或“混蛋”或“他妈的”或“奶子”——甚至不能说“奶子”——因为，当然，想想如果我这样做会随之而来的混乱。
Dana Chivvis is a reporter on our program.
达纳·奇夫维斯 (Dana Chivvis) 是我们节目的记者。
Liz Flock is still a reporter, but now she spends years reporting her stories.
莉兹·弗洛克仍然是一名记者，但现在她花了数年时间报道她的故事。
Her latest book, The Furies, which she traveled to Syria multiple times for, is out in paperback.
她的最新著作《复仇女神》已出版平装本，她曾多次前往叙利亚。
Coming up, an American dad makes an impassioned argument for more unnecessary lies.
接下来，一位美国父亲对更多不必要的谎言进行了激烈的争论。
Also, Masha Gessen.
还有玛莎·格森。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, "That's a Weird Thing to Lie About." We have stories today of unnecessary lies, outrageous lies that make you wonder, why lie about that in the first place?
今天的节目“这是一件奇怪的谎言”。今天我们有一些不必要的谎言、令人发指的谎言的故事，让你想知道，为什么首先要撒谎呢？
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, "Bully Pulpit."
第二幕，“恶霸讲坛”。
There's a particular kind of lie that somebody who's been on our show a few times, Masha Gessen, wrote about a few years ago.
有一种特殊的谎言，曾多次出现在我们的节目中的玛莎·格森（Masha Gessen）几年前写过。
And when I read what they wrote, I realized, oh, I had not thought about this as a specific way that a person can lie that is different from all the other ways a person can lie.
当我读到他们写的内容时，我意识到，哦，我没有想到这是一个人可以说谎的一种特定方式，与一个人可以说谎的所有其他方式不同。
It's a kind of lie that President Trump does a lot.
这是特朗普总统经常做的一种谎言。
He kicked off his presidency with one of these lies in the very first minutes on the very first day of his very first term.
在他第一个任期的第一天的第一分钟，他就以这样一个谎言开始了他的总统任期。
You may remember that he insisted that the crowds at his inauguration were bigger than they were, even though photos clearly showed that he was wrong.
您可能还记得，他坚称就职典礼上的人群比实际人数更多，尽管照片清楚地表明他错了。
But he also lied about the weather because it was rainy.
但他也对天气撒了谎，因为当时正在下雨。
And the cameras panned to all these former presidents.
镜头转向所有这些前总统。
And Trump claimed that when he started to speak, the sun came out, and the clouds parted, as though God herself were on his side.
特朗普声称，当他开始讲话时，太阳出来了，乌云散去，仿佛上帝亲自站在他一边。
And it was an easily checkable story.
这是一个很容易核实的故事。
It was definitely not true.
这绝对不是真的。
In fact, for anybody who had watched the inauguration, which was a lot of us, it was just right there.
事实上，对于任何看过就职典礼的人来说，也就是我们很多人，它就在那里。
We had just seen it.
我们刚刚看到它。
And then he emerges from this and says that that's something entirely different than we saw with our lying eyes.
然后他从这件事中走出来并说这与我们用撒谎的眼睛看到的完全不同。
Let me ask you to read-- you write about this very enjoyably.
让我请你读一下——你写得非常愉快。
Let me ask you to read this passage.
让我请你读一下这段话。
I'm going to hand you a copy.
我将递给您一份副本。
Let's start here and continue up here.
让我们从这里开始并继续这里。
We'll skip this little bit, and then we'll keep going.
我们将跳过这一点，然后继续。
OK.
好的。
"Lies can serve a number of functions.
“谎言可以起到多种作用。
People lie to deflect, to avoid embarrassment or evade punishment by creating doubt, to escape confrontation or lighten the blow, to make themselves appear better, to get others to do or give something, and even to entertain.
人们撒谎是为了转移注意力、避免尴尬或通过制造怀疑来逃避惩罚、逃避对抗或减轻打击、让自己看起来更好、让别人做某事或给予某事，甚至是为了娱乐。
However unskilled a person may be at lying, they usually hope that the lie will be convincing.
无论一个人在说谎方面多么不熟练，他们通常都希望谎言能够令人信服。
Executives want shareholders to think that they have devised a foolproof path to profits.
高管们希望股东认为他们已经设计了一条万无一失的盈利之路。
Defendants want juries to believe that there is a chance that someone else committed the crime.
被告希望陪审团相信有可能是其他人犯罪。
People in relationships want their partners to think that they have never even considered cheating.
恋爱中的人们希望他们的伴侣认为他们从未考虑过出轨。
Guests want the host to think that they like their fish overcooked.
客人希望主人认为他们喜欢把鱼煮得太熟。
These lies can be annoying or amusing, but they are surmountable.
这些谎言可能令人烦恼或有趣，但它们是可以克服的。
They collapse in the face of facts.
他们在事实面前崩溃了。
The Trumpian lie is different.
特朗普式的谎言则不同。
It is the power lie or the bully lie.
这是权力谎言或欺凌谎言。
It is the lie of the bigger kid who took your hat and is wearing it while denying that he took it.
这是一个大孩子的谎言，他拿走了你的帽子，并戴着它，同时又否认他拿了它。
There is no defense against this lie because the point of the lie is to assert power, to show I can say what I want, when I want to.
这种谎言是无可辩驳的，因为谎言的目的是维护权力，表明我可以在我想说的时候说我想说的话。
The power lie conjures a different reality that demands that you choose between your experience and the bully's demands.
权力谎言会带来不同的现实，要求你在自己的经历和欺凌者的要求之间做出选择。
Are you going to insist that you're wet from the rain or give in and say that the sun is shining?"
你是坚持说自己被雨淋湿了，还是屈服并说阳光明媚？”
I have to say, since reading that passage in your book a few weeks ago, I feel like it's like you gave a name to something that I had known was there, but hadn't put a finger on what it was, like I hadn't named myself.
我不得不说，自从几周前读到你书中的那段话以来，我觉得你给我知道在那里的东西起了一个名字，但没有指出它是什么，就像我没有给自己命名一样。
This is a particular phenomenon, a particular way of lying that Donald Trump does.
这是唐纳德·特朗普的一种特殊现象、一种特殊的撒谎方式。
And since I read that, I feel like I see this kind of power lie or bully lie from Trump and from his team come up in the news over and over.
自从我读到这篇文章后，我觉得我在新闻中一遍又一遍地看到特朗普和他的团队的这种权力谎言或欺凌谎言。
So, for example, Ukraine started the war with Russia; USAID sent $50 million worth of condoms to Hamas; China controls the Panama Canal.
例如，乌克兰向俄罗斯发动了战争；美国国际开发署向哈马斯捐赠了价值 5000 万美元的安全套；中国控制着巴拿马运河。
Yeah, these are bully lies.
是的，这些都是欺凌谎言。
And I'm seeing more and more of the impossibility of standing up to it because there are now a lot of these people, right?
我发现越来越多的人无法抵抗它，因为现在有很多这样的人，对吗？
It's not just Trump.
不仅仅是特朗普。
The first administration, it was Trump and his lies and a bunch of sycophants.
第一届政府，是特朗普和他的谎言以及一群阿谀奉承者。
Now they're kind of all, particularly Trump and Musk, are just kind of running-- one is constantly getting ahead of the other.
现在，他们所有人，尤其是特朗普和马斯克，都在奔跑——一个人不断领先于另一个人。
Federal employees have fortunes in the tens of millions with a salary of $180,000.
联邦雇员拥有数千万财富，年薪18万美元。
That's something that Elon Musk claimed without presenting any evidence at all in an Oval Office press event, where he also suggested that Social Security may be sending out checks to people 150 years old-- also without evidence, seems to be flatly untrue.
这是埃隆·马斯克在椭圆形办公室新闻发布会上在没有提供任何证据的情况下声称的事情，他还暗示社会保障可能会向 150 岁的人发放支票——同样没有证据，这似乎完全是不真实的。
Masha says these kind of lies, these bully lies, are different from the kind of lies that we've been used to in American politics for most of our history, where the two sides argue back and forth, present evidence, try to convince each other-- or try to convince voters, at least.
玛莎说，这些谎言，这些欺凌性的谎言，与我们在美国政治历史上大部分时间里所习惯的谎言不同，在美国政治中，双方反复争论，提出证据，试图说服对方——或者至少试图说服选民。
The bully lie is different.
欺凌谎言则不同。
It doesn't try to convince you.
它不会试图说服你。
It doesn't present evidence.
它没有提供证据。
It just tells you to pick a side.
它只是告诉你选择一边。
So when the president said that diversity programs caused the plane crash over the Potomac, when he called the president of Ukraine a dictator without elections, he didn't lay out a set of facts to make his case.
因此，当总统说多元化计划导致了波托马克河上的飞机失事时，当他称乌克兰总统是未经选举的独裁者时，他并没有列出一系列事实来证明自己的观点。
He wasn't interested in rebuttal.
他没兴趣反驳。
When he does this kind of thing, Masha writes, he's "asserting control over reality itself" and splitting the country into those who agree to live in his reality and those who resist and become his enemies by insisting on facts.
玛莎写道，当他做这种事情时，他“主张对现实本身的控制”，并将国家分裂为那些同意生活在他的现实中的人和那些通过坚持事实来抵抗并成为他的敌人的人。
I don't know if it's worth complicating this analysis with this example, but I was actually able to think of one instance of the Democrats doing the kind of bully lie that Masha writes about, and it's a big one that we all just lived through.
我不知道是否值得用这个例子来复杂化这个分析，但我实际上能够想到民主党人做玛莎所写的那种欺凌谎言的一个例子，这是我们都刚刚经历过的一个大谎言。
It seemed like it was done more out of desperation than anything else and not part of a daily pattern of making false claims with no facts behind them.
看起来这更多是出于绝望而不是其他原因，而不是在没有事实依据的情况下提出虚假主张的日常模式的一部分。
The thing I'm talking about is Joe Biden and his advisors concealing how he had aged in office.
我所说的是乔·拜登和他的顾问隐瞒了他在办公室的年龄。
I talked to Masha about this.
我和玛莎谈过这件事。
That basically was making everybody in the country choose, either you accept what we're telling you about Biden or you're against us.
这基本上是让这个国家的每个人都做出选择，要么你接受我们告诉你的关于拜登的信息，要么你反对我们。
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
I mean, I wrote a piece about it at The Times saying that it was totally Trumpian behavior.
我的意思是，我在《泰晤士报》上写了一篇关于这件事的文章，说这完全是特朗普的行为。
I did not win any friends with that piece, but that's what it felt like because we could see it.
我没有用那件作品赢得任何朋友，但这就是感觉，因为我们可以看到它。
We could see it at the debate.
我们可以在辩论中看到这一点。
And then there were all these people around Biden who were saying, don't believe your lying eyes.
然后拜登周围的所有这些人都在说，不要相信你撒谎的眼睛。
He is in control.
他掌控一切。
He is running the country.
他正在治理国家。
It had that feel of the bully lie.
它有一种欺凌谎言的感觉。
The reason Masha is so aware of what that feels like is that they grew up in Russia, left, came back, then fled when it became impossible for them to keep living there under Vladimir Putin.
玛莎之所以如此清楚这种感觉，是因为他们在俄罗斯长大，离开，回来，然后在弗拉基米尔·普京统治下无法继续生活时逃离。
Masha says the bully lie is significant because it's not a traditional part of American politics, but it is a very standard tactic of authoritarian leaders around the world and in history.
玛莎说，欺凌谎言很重要，因为它不是美国政治的传统组成部分，但它是世界各地和历史上独裁领导人的非常标准的策略。
Masha has actually written and reported a ton about this.
事实上，玛莎已经撰写并报告了大量有关此事的文章。
They wrote a book about Putin and another one about Russia's recent turn to totalitarianism.
他们写了一本关于普京的书，另一本关于俄罗斯最近转向极权主义的书。
And authoritarian government, just to remind you, is basically a government run by one person, a strongman leader, who holds all the power, which, of course, is different from our system of checks and balances.
顺便提醒一下，威权政府基本上是一个由一个人领导的政府，一个强人领导人，掌握着所有权力，这当然与我们的制衡制度不同。
Masha wrote about the bully lie in their book about Donald Trump's first term.
玛莎在他们关于唐纳德·特朗普第一个任期的书中写到了欺凌谎言。
The book is called Surviving Autocracy.
这本书的名字叫《幸存的独裁》。
That's what I asked them to read from a little earlier.
这就是我之前要求他们读的内容。
In that book, Masha argues that Donald Trump does lots of things that we normally see from authoritarian leaders, not just the bully lies.
在那本书中，玛莎认为唐纳德·特朗普做了很多我们通常从独裁领导人身上看到的事情，而不仅仅是欺凌谎言。
And I think it's worth talking about it for a little bit here.
我认为值得在这里稍微讨论一下。
I found it eye-opening to see it laid out point by point.
看到它逐点布置，我发现它令人大开眼界。
And I just want to say, if you like the president and you think talking about him this way is just way, way out of line, just stay with me.
我只想说，如果你喜欢总统，并且认为以这种方式谈论他是非常非常不合时宜的，那么就留在我身边吧。
We talked about that.
我们讨论过这个。
I feel very aware that people who like the president may hear you say the word "autocrat" and just think it's nuts, and you're just looking for any alarmist thing you can say to make him look bad.
我非常清楚，喜欢总统的人可能会听到你说“独裁者”这个词，并认为这很疯狂，而你只是在寻找任何危言耸听的话来让他难堪。
Can I ask you to make your case for a skeptical listener?
我可以请你向持怀疑态度的听众阐述你的理由吗？
What are the things that Donald Trump does that usually we see from autocrats and not from just regular American politicians who might lie and do whatever it is that they do?
唐纳德·特朗普做了哪些我们通常从独裁者那里看到的事情，而不仅仅是从可能撒谎并做任何他们所做的事情的普通美国政客那里看到的？
What are the things that he's doing that are more typical for autocrats?
他正在做的哪些事情对于独裁者来说更典型？
Well, at this point, there is every indication-- and by every indication, I mean all the things that he constantly says-- that he actually thinks that that's how government should work.
好吧，在这一点上，有各种迹象——每一种迹象，我指的是他经常说的所有事情——他实际上认为这就是政府应该如何运作。
It should be one person making decisions.
应该是一个人做决定。
Right.
正确的。
You're making me think of him deciding to weigh in on and ban congestion pricing in New York City from the White House--
你让我想起他决定在白宫参与并禁止纽约市的拥堵收费——
Exactly.
正是如此。
Ira Glass --and saying, I'm the king.
艾拉·格拉斯——并说，我是国王。
Long live the king.
国王万岁。
Or calling out the governor of Maine for, I guess, in his opinion, not following his executive order on disallowing transgender athletes in sports, with the governor responding that the state of Maine has its own laws, and him basically saying-- I can't remember the exact quote, but basically saying, I'm in charge here, and we'll see who wins.
或者指责缅因州州长，我想，在他看来，没有遵守他关于禁止变性运动员参加体育运动的行政命令，州长回应说缅因州有自己的法律，他基本上是说——我不记得确切的引述，但基本上是说，我在这里负责，我们会看看谁会赢。
That is actually almost the definition of an autocrat-- acting like you have ultimate and unchecked power.
这实际上几乎就是独裁者的定义——表现得好像你拥有终极的、不受限制的权力。
And there are other specific things, Masha says, that Donald Trump has done in the last few weeks that are standard moves for an autocrat.
玛莎说，唐纳德·特朗普在过去几周所做的其他一些具体事情是独裁者的标准举动。
Number one, punishing press outlets who don't do what he says.
第一，惩罚不按他说的做的媒体。
Trump kicked the Associated Press from covering him in the Oval Office, on Air Force 1, and at major events after they refused to call the Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of America like he wants.
特朗普禁止美联社在椭圆形办公室、空军一号以及重大活动中对他进行报道，因为他们拒绝按照他的意愿称呼墨西哥湾和美洲湾。
Autocrats go after their enemies.
独裁者追捕他们的敌人。
Donald Trump has been going after so many enemies publicly.
唐纳德·特朗普一直在公开追捕如此多的敌人。
Former aides.
前助手。
He fired Justice Department officials who prosecuted cases against him.
他解雇了对他提起诉讼的司法部官员。
And this week, even went after the law firm that is giving advice to one of those officials, taking away their security clearances which will make defending that official harder.
本周，甚至还追查了向其中一名官员提供建议的律师事务所，取消了他们的安全许可，这将使捍卫该官员变得更加困难。
That is very autocratic leader.
那是一个非常专制的领导者。
And then there's Donald Trump's basic campaign message, make America great again.
然后是唐纳德·特朗普的基本竞选信息：让美国再次伟大。
A better future that's basically the past is a common trait to all modern autocrats.
美好的未来基本上已经成为过去，这是所有现代独裁者的共同特征。
And then in the 20th century, we also had some futuristic autocrats.
然后在20世纪，我们也出现了一些未来主义的独裁者。
The Soviet totalitarianism was probably the most vivid example.
苏联极权主义可能是最生动的例子。
But all the autocrats have come to power in the world in the last 15 or so years on this wave of resurgent autocracies, they're all past oriented.
但在过去15年左右的时间里，世界上所有的独裁者都是在这股独裁主义复兴浪潮中上台的，他们都是以过去为导向的。
They're saying, we had a glorious past, and we've got to go back to it.
他们说，我们有辉煌的过去，我们必须回到过去。
Yeah, it's make whatever country great again.
是的，它会让任何国家再次伟大。
And it's always an imaginary past, when you felt comfortable, when you didn't have these anxieties, when your children were just like you, when men were men and women were women, and everyone spoke the same language as you do.
这总是一个想象中的过去，当你感到舒适，当你没有这些焦虑，当你的孩子和你一样，当男人是男人，女人是女人，每个人都和你说同样的语言。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
What do you make of all the things that Trump has been saying lately about taking over Greenland and the Panama Canal and Gaza?
您如何看待特朗普最近关于接管格陵兰岛、巴拿马运河和加沙的所有言论？
I think a few things are happening there, and I think they're pretty scary.
我认为那里正在发生一些事情，而且我认为它们非常可怕。
I think the first time he mentioned Greenland, which was during his first term, it was probably at a moment's inspiration.
我想他第一次提到格陵兰岛是在他的第一个任期内，可能是一时的灵感。
He probably meant nothing by it.
他可能没有任何意思。
Just like out loud trolling or say a noisy thing, it'll get a headline, and who cares?
就像大声恶搞或者说吵闹的话一样，它会成为头条新闻，谁在乎呢？
What he does all the time.
他一直在做什么。
Masha Gessen Yeah.
玛莎·格森 是的。
One thing about Trump, though, is that he's very sensitive to being heard.
不过，特朗普的一件事是，他对被倾听非常敏感。
Greenland was heard, and because Greenland was heard, it became a kind of an idée fixe.
格陵兰岛被听到了，并且因为格陵兰岛被听到了，它变成了一种固定想法。
And so now, in his second term, he's bringing up Greenland again.
现在，在他的第二个任期内，他再次提到了格陵兰岛问题。
I think it's a whole other story.
我认为这是一个完全不同的故事。
It's no longer an absurd, trolling kind of meme thing.
这不再是一种荒谬的、恶搞的模因。
It's beginning to approach policy.
它开始接近政策。
Yeah.
是的。
Masha Gessen And I think that the way that he is also throwing around the Panama Canal and the Gulf of America, of course, he's doing this because totalitarian leaders have to promise expansion.
玛莎·格森（Masha Gessen）我认为他也在巴拿马运河和美洲湾周围进行投掷，当然，他这样做是因为极权主义领导人必须承诺扩张。
That's like--
这就像——
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass What are you saying?
[笑声] Ira Glass 你在说什么？
Like, they have a rule book that they have to follow?
比如，他们有必须遵守的规则手册？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
I'm actually half serious.
我其实是半认真的。
Like that--
就这样——
You are serious.
你是认真的。
There are certain things that they do.
他们做了某些事情。
Like, for example, they pick some group in society to be the, like, these are the people who we hate, who are ruining things for the rest of us.
例如，他们选择社会中的某个群体作为我们讨厌的人，他们正在毁掉我们其他人的事情。
That's one thing they do.
这是他们做的一件事。
Exactly.
确切地。
Ira Glass And then another thing is that they call to some sort of golden age.
Ira Glass：另一件事是他们呼吁某种黄金时代。
Yeah, that they're going to recreate in the future.
是的，他们将来会重新创造。
And then you're saying another one is just we're going to expand?
然后你说另一个就是我们要扩张？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, we're going to take over other lands.
是的，我们要占领其他土地。
And what it is, I think it's a promise of greatness.
我认为它是什么，这是一个伟大的承诺。
It's a trade-off.
这是一个权衡。
Generally speaking, autocratic regimes don't, in the long run, prove economically beneficial--
一般来说，从长远来看，独裁政权不会在经济上带来好处——
To the population.
给人民。
Masha Gessen --to the population.
玛莎·格森——致人民。
Right, they're usually economically beneficial to the actual autocrat and his cohort.
是的，他们通常在经济上对真正的独裁者和他的同伙有利。
And you will not necessarily be personally better off.
而且你个人的境况不一定会更好。
So what is he going to actually give them?
那么他实际上会给他们什么呢？
What he's going to give them is a sense of belonging to something greater.
他要给他们的是一种对更伟大事物的归属感。
And the something greater is a country that's expanding its borders?
更伟大的是一个正在扩大边界的国家？
Yeah, yeah, the greatest country in the world that is expanding its borders.
是的，是的，世界上最伟大的国家正在扩大边界。
OK, so obviously, nobody knows what's coming next.
好吧，很明显，没有人知道接下来会发生什么。
But if you see Trump as a kind of autocratic ruler and you worry about him taking more power in that way, what are the things you'd be looking for next?
但如果你将特朗普视为一种独裁统治者，并且担心他以这种方式获得更多权力，那么你接下来会寻找什么？
Like, what are the markers of it going further?
比如，它进一步发展的标志是什么？
Well, the problem is that we're always looking for that one thing, or there's three things.
好吧，问题是我们总是在寻找一件事，或者是三件事。
And now once we check them off, we're living in an autocracy.
现在一旦我们把它们勾掉，我们就生活在一个独裁统治中。
The problem is that it's actually always a gradual process, and it's happening much faster here than it's happened in any country that I'm familiar with.
问题是，这实际上总是一个渐进的过程，而且这里发生的速度比我熟悉的任何国家都要快得多。
Really?
真的吗？
Masha Gessen Yes.
玛莎·格森 是的。
[CLEARS THROAT] I mean, it took Putin quite a long time to establish actual authoritarian rule, and then another number of years to turn that regime into a totalitarian one.
[清嗓子]我的意思是，普京花了相当长的时间才建立了真正的独裁统治，然后又花了几年的时间将该政权转变为极权主义政权。
The way that Trump is taking a sledgehammer to government is certainly unprecedented in my memory.
特朗普对政府大锤的方式在我的记忆中无疑是前所未有的。
But I think the things that we have to look for, some of them, you can sort of measure, like when they start consistently ignoring court decisions that are not favorable to them.
但我认为我们必须寻找的东西，其中一些，你可以进行衡量，比如当他们开始一贯忽视不利于他们的法院判决时。
Yeah.
是的。
Masha Gessen So far, they've ignored some, it seems like.
Masha Gessen 到目前为止，他们似乎忽略了一些。
But it doesn't look like it's consistent.
但看起来并不一致。
But at some point, I would expect them-- or let's say, I will fear that they will say these court decisions that go against the government are illegitimate.
但在某些时候，我会期望他们——或者说，我担心他们会说这些违背政府的法院判决是非法的。
So that will be a huge marker.
所以这将是一个巨大的标志。
But then there are softer things like shifting consensus.
但还有一些更温和的事情，比如改变共识。
And I think it's already happening.
我认为这已经发生了。
That's one way of understanding what people have also been calling the obeying in advance that we have seen all over the place.
这是理解人们所说的“提前服从”的一种方式，我们随处可见。
The most vivid example of it is by far not the only one, right, but it's Mark Zuckerberg's little address when he announced that they were not going to have fact-checking on Facebook anymore.
迄今为止，最生动的例子并不是唯一的，对吧，这是马克·扎克伯格宣布他们将不再对 Facebook 进行事实核查时的小演讲。
He kept saying, things have changed.
他一直说，事情已经改变了。
This is a new moment.
这是一个新的时刻。
We're going to move our operations to Texas because that's the new moment we're living in.
我们将把业务转移到德克萨斯州，因为那是我们生活的新时刻。
And all of these things are ways of saying, look, I'm fully accepting that Trump has created a new reality.
所有这些事情都是在表达，看，我完全接受特朗普创造了一个新的现实。
And I'm going to take all my things and move into that reality with him and live there with him.
我将带着我所有的东西和他一起进入那个现实并和他一起生活。
And anybody who refuses to do that, they're going to be left out in the cold.
任何拒绝这样做的人都会被冷落。
Masha Gessen.
玛莎·格森。
Their book about Donald Trump and his autocratic tendencies is called Surviving Autocracy.
他们关于唐纳德·特朗普及其独裁倾向的书名为《幸存的独裁》。
These days, they're an opinion columnist at The New York Times.
如今，他们是《纽约时报》的观点专栏作家。
They recently wrote in The Times-- "Life under autocracy can be terrifying, as it already is in the United States for immigrants and trans people.
他们最近在《泰晤士报》上写道：“独裁统治下的生活可能是可怕的，就像在美国对于移民和跨性别者来说已经如此。
But those of us with experience can tell you, most of the time, for most people, it's not frightening.
但我们这些有经验的人可以告诉你，大多数时候，对于大多数人来说，这并不可怕。
It is stultifying.
这是愚蠢的。
It's boring.
很无聊。
It feels like trying to see and breathe underwater because you're submerged in bad ideas, being discussed badly, being reflected in bad journalism, and eventually, in bad literature and bad movies."
这感觉就像试图在水下观察和呼吸，因为你被糟糕的想法淹没，被糟糕的讨论，被反映在糟糕的新闻中，最终，在糟糕的文学和糟糕的电影中。”
Just this week, lawyers nominated for top positions in the Justice Department, including solicitor general, were asked if the president could ignore or disobey a court order.
就在本周，被提名担任司法部高级职位（包括副检察长）的律师被问及总统是否可以无视或违反法院命令。
And they hedged.
他们进行了对冲。
They did not say that he should obey.
他们没有说他应该服从。
Vice President Vance said earlier this month that judges should not be allowed to control what the president does.
副总统万斯本月早些时候表示，不应允许法官控制总统的行为。
Act Three, "In Defense of Unnecessary Lies." Well, it's been nearly a whole hour talking about far-fetched lies that do not seem to make the world a better place at all.
第三幕，“为不必要的谎言辩护”。好吧，我们已经谈论了近一个小时的牵强谎言，而这些谎言似乎根本没有让世界变得更美好。
Our tone, I'll admit, has been skeptical, sometimes incredulous.
我承认，我们的语气是怀疑的，有时甚至是难以置信。
In this act, we turn that around.
在这一行动中，我们扭转了这一局面。
I present one of our coworkers here at the radio show, Ike Sriskandaraja.
我在广播节目中介绍了我们的一位同事，艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾 (Ike Sriskandaraja)。
Sometimes in my own life, just for fun, I'll make up something and tell people.
有时在我自己的生活中，只是为了好玩，我会编造一些东西并告诉别人。
Here's one from years ago.
这是几年前的一张。
You remember Karl Rove, the guy who helped get George W.
你还记得卡尔·罗夫（Karl Rove），他帮助乔治·W·布什（George W.
Bush elected to be governor and then president?
布什当选州长然后当选总统？
I told my friend Charles that this man, well into his 60s, was really only 36.
我告诉我的朋友查尔斯，这个人已经 60 多岁了，实际上只有 36 岁。
He just looked old.
他只是看起来老了。
I guess I liked the world where things aren't quite as they appear, and the people running the show are more like children in grown-up suits.
我想我喜欢这个世界，事情并不像表面看起来那样，而主持节目的人更像是穿着成人西装的孩子。
And Charles, he went with it, so hard that years later, he came back and told me he'd told dozens of people before catching the lie, which, to be honest, made me feel great and enjoy the lie even more that strangers I never met got to step into this funny little warped reality.
而查尔斯，他坚持了下来，如此努力，以至于多年后，他回来告诉我，在识破谎言之前，他已经告诉了几十个人，说实话，这让我感觉很棒，更喜欢谎言，甚至让我从未见过的陌生人走进这个有趣的扭曲的现实。
But sometimes these lies of amusement don't work out so well.
但有时这些娱乐谎言的效果并不那么好。
Like, for instance, when my dad came to visit me years ago and was staying over in my small apartment, he noticed a diploma on my desk ordaining me as a minister.
举例来说，几年前，当我父亲来看望我并在我的小公寓里过夜时，他注意到我桌上有一张任命我为牧师的文凭。
I still remember that very well.
我仍然记得很清楚。
It was a certificate, some kind of a certification.
这是一份证书，某种证明。
My dad.
我的爸爸。
Dad My first impression was you had changed your religion from Hinduism to some other unknown cult.
爸爸，我的第一印象是你已经将你的宗教信仰从印度教改为其他未知的邪教。
It would have been easy to correct this misunderstanding and tell my dad the real story-- that my friends had asked me to officiate their wedding.
纠正这个误会并告诉我父亲真实的故事是很容易的——我的朋友们请我主持他们的婚礼。
And to legally marry them, I had to get ordained in an online church.
为了合法地与他们结婚，我必须在网上教堂获得任命。
It just seemed funnier to go along with the story that I was now a minister in a Christian cult.
同意我现在是基督教邪教牧师的故事似乎更有趣。
It came as a surprise to me because for so many generations, we have been following this religion.
这让我感到惊讶，因为世世代代以来，我们一直追随这个宗教。
So I was a little disappointed.
所以我有点失望。
But things happen.
但事情发生了。
My mom.
我的妈妈。
Mom I thought it was odd because you would have told me about it if you were doing something like this.
妈妈，我觉得这很奇怪，因为如果你做了这样的事情，你就会告诉我这件事。
So it came as a huge surprise to me, too.
所以这对我来说也是一个巨大的惊喜。
While my dad met my fake conversion story with resigned disappointment and no follow-up questions, my mom just called me.
当我父亲看到我虚假的皈依故事时，感到非常失望，也没有提出后续问题，但我妈妈只是给我打电话。
So when we spoke the next time, I brought it up, and I asked you about it.
所以当我们下次谈话的时候，我提出了这个问题，并且问了你这个问题。
Then you started laughing.
然后你开始笑。
Then I knew it was just a joke.
然后我就知道这只是个玩笑。
Then I had to tell Dad.
然后我不得不告诉爸爸。
I was relieved.
我松了口气。
I didn't have to think about it anymore.
我不必再考虑它了。
Yes.
是的。
It's an excellent joke.
这是一个很棒的笑话。
Ike Sriskandaraja Is that a lie?
艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾 这是谎言吗？
It's a white lie.
这是一个善意的谎言。
Ike Sriskandaraja Honestly, this all surprised me that my dad couldn't tell I was joking, mostly because I learned this type of joke from him.
Ike Sriskandaraja 老实说，这让我很惊讶，我爸爸看不出我在开玩笑，主要是因为我从他那里学到了这种笑话。
What did you say?
你说什么？
Ike Sriskandaraja I've just been doing your joke, the joke you make all the time where you lie about something.
艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾（Ike Sriskandaraja）我只是在开你的玩笑，你总是在对某件事撒谎的时候开的玩笑。
I didn't know that.
我不知道。
[LAUGHS] Mom He does lie a lot, yes.
[笑]妈妈，他确实经常撒谎，是的。
My dad tells people he came to America by going through a tunnel under the wall.
我爸爸告诉人们他是通过墙下的隧道来到美国的。
Other times, it's a boat.
其他时候，它是一艘船。
When I was a kid, he told me the stretch marks on his shoulders were from a fight he had with a tiger.
当我还是个孩子的时候，他告诉我他肩膀上的妊娠纹是他和老虎打斗留下的。
I told everybody.
我告诉了大家。
But my favorite lie he told happened during a math class my dad used to teach at Madison Area Technical College.
但他最喜欢的谎言发生在我父亲曾经在麦迪逊地区技术学院教数学课时。
My good friend Buskus was taking it, and I decided to go with him.
我的好朋友布斯库斯带着它，我决定和他一起去。
Now, before the lesson started, my dad introduced me to the class.
现在，在课程开始之前，我爸爸向我介绍了班级。
I do remember that.
我确实记得这一点。
I introduced you as a foreign exchange student from Nicaragua.
我介绍你是一名来自尼加拉瓜的交换生。
Although you didn't look like a Nicaraguan.
虽然你看起来不像尼加拉瓜人。
Why did you say that?
你为什么这么说？
Dad Because we had students from Central American countries.
爸爸因为我们有来自中美洲国家的学生。
I wanted to make use of that and came up with this idea.
我想利用这一点并提出了这个想法。
Well, I understand why it's plausible, but why did you even tell a lie about where your son was from, instead of saying, my son is here?
好吧，我明白为什么这是合理的，但你为什么要撒谎说你儿子来自哪里，而不是说，我儿子在这里？
I just wanted to play a practical joke with my students.
我只是想和我的学生们开个恶作剧。
It is also for Buskus, who knows the real story and who started laughing.
这也是为布斯库斯准备的，他知道真实的故事并开始大笑。
My dad and my friend Buskus started laughing so hard they were wiping tears from their eyes.
我的父亲和我的朋友布斯库斯开始大笑，他们都在擦眼泪。
The rest of the class seemed confused why their teacher was misidentifying a new South Asian student as being from Central America.
班上的其他人似乎很困惑为什么他们的老师将一名南亚新学生误认为来自中美洲。
It was very funny, especially for those of us who have to field a lot of those "Where are you from originally?" types of questions.
这很有趣，特别是对于我们这些必须面对很多“你来自哪里？”的人来说。问题类型。
Anyone carefully observing my dad might notice he has a tell-- quick eyebrow raise and a big grin.
任何仔细观察我父亲的人都可能会注意到他有一个特点——眉毛快速扬起，笑容满面。
I have the same tell, and people close to me know it.
我也有同样的说法，我身边的人也都知道。
But apparently, that doesn't make it any less frustrating to live with.
但显然，这并没有让生活变得不那么令人沮丧。
Early in our relationship, my now-wife Emma told me it was driving her crazy.
在我们关系的早期，我现在的妻子艾玛告诉我，这让她发疯。
She didn't want to look over her shoulder to check for my tell or second-guess everything I was telling her.
她不想回头检查我的讲述或事后猜测我告诉她的一切。
Like, do you really want to go to an info session on a timeshare in Juarez?
比如，您真的想参加华雷斯分时度假的信息会议吗？
Or what do you mean, the president says he will raise the black flag of ISIS over the White House?
或者你的意思是，总统说他将在白宫上空举起伊斯兰国的黑旗？
She told me to stop.
她叫我停下来。
Neither of us remember the exact lie that drove her over the top, but she remembers the feeling very clearly.
我们都不记得到底是哪个谎言让她崩溃了，但她却清楚地记得那种感觉。
I wanted an actual answer about whether it was how you felt, or what you wanted to do, or where we should put the thing, or should we whatever, something kind of day to day.
我想要一个实际的答案，无论是你的感受，还是你想做什么，或者我们应该把东西放在哪里，或者我们应该做什么，日常的事情。
And the accumulation of getting not-real answers that I then had to parse and say, wait, but just what do you-- I just need you to tell me straight so we can move on from this.
然后我不得不解析并说，等等，但你要做什么——我只需要你直接告诉我，这样我们就可以继续前进。
I think that was the thing that took me to wanting you to stop.
我想这就是让我希望你停下来的原因。
Emma compared it to this thing I did when I was 26 and had just moved into my own apartment, when I used to use my kitchen drawers for non-kitchen items, which is not exactly a lie, but felt like waking up on the set of a surrealist play.
艾玛将其与我 26 岁时所做的事情进行了比较，当时我刚刚搬进自己的公寓，当时我经常用厨房抽屉来存放非厨房物品，这并不完全是谎言，但感觉就像在超现实主义戏剧的布景中醒来。
It's just confusing.
这只是令人困惑。
[CHUCKLES] And this was when we first started dating or maybe even before.
[笑]那是我们第一次开始约会的时候，甚至可能更早。
And I was looking for something in your kitchen.
我正在你的厨房里找东西。
You had maybe, like, two forks and two spoons.
你可能有两把叉子和两把勺子。
And I was probably looking for one of these forks or something.
我可能正在寻找其中一把叉子或其他东西。
And I opened a drawer, like a logical place to have silverware, and instead found either boxers or DVDs, like Seinfeld box set.
我打开一个抽屉，本来是放银器的地方，但我却发现了平角盒或 DVD，比如《宋飞正传》套装。
And it was funny, but it was also maddening.
这很有趣，但也很令人抓狂。
Emma didn't want to live in Wonderland.
艾玛不想生活在仙境里。
It's too crazy, too hard to find the forks.
这太疯狂了，找到叉子太难了。
If we were going to make plans together for the rest of our lives, she wanted straight answers.
如果我们要一起制定余生的计划，她想要直接的答案。
So I stopped lying to her.
所以我不再对她撒谎。
For years, I packed this part of me away, in the dresser I ended up buying for my underwear.
多年来，我一直把自己的这一部分收起来，放在我最终买来当内衣的梳妆台里。
But now we have two kids, and I've brought lying back into our house, especially with our oldest.
但现在我们有两个孩子了，我把躺着带回了家里，尤其是和我们最大的孩子在一起。
Just recently, like a day ago-- what did you say?
就在最近，就像一天前——你说什么？
You looked at his foot, and you were like-- you were like, huh, where did you get all these toes?
你看着他的脚，然后你就想，哈，你从哪里得到这些脚趾的？
Why do you have 10 toes?
为什么你有10个脚趾？
Most people only have six.
大多数人只有六个。
And now he's four and wise to you.
现在他四岁了，对你来说很聪明。
And he was like, what?
他说，什么？
What?
什么？
He's like, you're joking.
他就像，你在开玩笑。
Leroy gets it.
勒罗伊明白了。
So far, he hasn't asked me to stop yet.
到目前为止，他还没有要求我停下来。
Maybe you would like to try this in your own house.
也许您想在自己家里尝试一下。
In fact, maybe it's a valuable lesson for your kids.
事实上，也许这对您的孩子来说是宝贵的一课。
It trains them to determine fact from fiction.
它训练他们辨别事实与虚构。
It seems useful in our world.
它在我们的世界中似乎很有用。
Ike Sriskandaraja is one of the producers of our show.
艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾 (Ike Sriskandaraja) 是我们节目的制片人之一。
By the way, his friend Charles, who Ike lied to about Karl Rove, Charles told me recently that he never thought that that was true.
顺便说一句，他的朋友查尔斯，艾克在卡尔·罗夫的问题上向他撒了谎，查尔斯最近告诉我，他从来不认为那是真的。
He lied to Ike about believing it and also about telling others, just to amuse himself.
他对艾克撒谎，说他相信这一点，也告诉别人，只是为了自娱自乐。
Well, our program was produced today by Diane Wu.
嗯，我们今天的节目是吴黛安制作的。
The people who put together today's show include Jendayi Bonds, Michael Comite, Angela Gervasi, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Lilly Sullivan, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, and Julie Whitaker.
今天节目的制作人包括 Jendayi Bonds、Michael Comite、Angela Gervasi、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Lilly Sullivan、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala 和 Julie Whitaker。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Andy Carvin, Anna Starecheski, Annika Hotta, Natasha Nelson, Ira Kraemer, Eric Garcia, and Matt Miller.
今天特别感谢 Andy Carvin、Anna Starecheski、Annika Hotta、Natasha Nelson、Ira Kraemer、Eric Garcia 和 Matt Miller。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
I know you.
我认识你。
You're living your life, doing stuff.
你过着自己的生活，做着自己的事情。
You need something to listen to.
你需要听点东西。
What are you going to listen to?
你要听什么？
Go to our website.
访问我们的网站。
You can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free.
您可以完全免费地观看我们的 800 多集档案。
That is still happening.
这种情况仍在发生。
Again, thisamericanlife.org.
再说一次，thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
Have you heard he is doing a one-man show based on the children's book The Very Hungry Caterpillar?
你听说过他正在根据儿童读物《好饿的毛毛虫》制作一部独角戏吗？
It opens this way.
打开是这样的。
Is this thing on?
这个东西开了吗？
Can I tell you about what I ate?
我可以告诉你我吃了什么吗？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。