852: Pivot Point - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #852 | January 17, 2025 852: Pivot Point Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 852 集 | 2025 年 1 月 17 日 852：枢轴点 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass When Kirk and his wife MJ evacuated their house in LA on the second day of the fires, they could see the flames up the hill from their backyard.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 火灾发生的第二天，当柯克和他的妻子 MJ 从洛杉矶的家中撤离时，他们可以从后院看到山上的火焰。
They packed their car full, got their seven and eight-year-old kids inside with the family cat, hit the road.
他们把车装满，带着七八岁的孩子和家里的猫，上路了。
And Kirk started recording.
柯克开始录音。
[CRYING] Kirk OK.
[哭泣] 柯克 好吧。
Now I know it's scary.
现在我知道这很可怕。
But--
但是——
Has this happened when Mommy or Daddy was little?
妈妈或爸爸小时候有过这种情况吗？
He records his kids a lot and just had a feeling like this is an important moment.
他给孩子们录制了很多视频，感觉这是一个重要的时刻。
Can we just drive to a song by the Beatles?
我们可以开车听披头士乐队的歌曲吗？
Not like We the Kings because I don't really want to listen to rock.
不像《We the Kings》，因为我真的不想听摇滚。
OK, can I say something?
好的，我可以说句话吗？
I don't really want to listen to rock music when our house is going to--
当我们的房子要--时我真的不想听摇滚音乐
Our house is OK.
我们家还好。
Our house is going to be OK, OK?
我们的房子会好起来的，好吗？
Kirk is Kirk Johnson.
柯克是柯克·约翰逊。
He's been on our show before, talking about his experiences in the Iraq War, among other things.
他以前参加过我们的节目，谈论他在伊拉克战争中的经历等等。
He thinks of himself as somebody who can usually handle a moment of crisis.
他认为自己通常能够应对危机时刻。
But he admits, he made mistakes in the car.
但他承认，他在车上犯了错误。
He didn't bring the family tortoise, an animal he says his kids have ignored for over a year.
他没有带家里养的乌龟，他说他的孩子们已经忽视这种动物一年多了。
It lives in a giant crate outside the house.
它住在房子外面的一个巨大的板条箱里。
In the car, he realized how upset his son August was about that.
在车上，他意识到儿子奥古斯特对此有多难过。
But they drove.
但他们开车了。
Looked at wind speeds and wind directions, made a guess about where it might be safe, booked a hotel.
查看风速和风向，猜测哪里可能安全，然后预订了酒店。
And things were feeling a little calmer in the car.
车里的气氛稍微平静了一些。
Daddy, can you tell us one of your kids' stories you haven't told us?
爸爸，你能告诉我们一个你没有告诉我们的你孩子的故事吗？
That's August asking Kirk to tell a story from his childhood, which he does sometimes.
奥古斯特要求柯克讲一个他童年的故事，他有时也会这么做。
Kirk grew up with chickens, goats, and animals.
柯克与鸡、山羊和动物一起长大。
OK.
好的。
Did I ever tell you the story about-- I think I did-- when my horse got sick?
我有没有给你讲过——我想我讲过——我的马生病的故事？
No, you never told us that.
不，你从来没有告诉过我们这一点。
Kirk I used to have a horse named Joe.
柯克 我曾经有一匹名叫乔的马。
Yep.
是的。
I like to think-- August Let's just make his last name Biden, OK?
我喜欢想——奥古斯特 让我们把他的姓氏改成拜登吧，好吗？
Joe Biden the horse.
乔·拜登那匹马。
And Mamie and Gramps went to visit Uncle Sorin in Russia.
玛米和爷爷去俄罗斯看望索林叔叔。
But they were far away, and they left me home alone.
但他们离得很远，把我一个人留在家里。
I was like--
我当时就像——
Wait, how old were you?
等等，你当时几岁？
Kirk 14 or 15.
柯克 14 或 15 岁。
And one day, I went down to check on Joe one morning before school.
有一天，我在放学前一天早上去查看乔的情况。
And he was lying on the ground.
而他正躺在地上。
He was kneeling down, which is not a good sign for a horse.
他跪了下来，这对马来说不是一个好兆头。
And I didn't know what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
And so I went to school, and then I came back.
于是我就去了学校，然后又回来了。
And I was really nervous, and Joe was still lying on the ground.
我真的很紧张，而乔仍然躺在地上。
And every day I was trying to get him to eat food and stuff.
每天我都试图让他吃东西。
And he wasn't eating anything.
而且他什么也没吃。
And so you know what I did?
所以你知道我做了什么吗？
Do you know what my best idea was?
你知道我最好的主意是什么吗？
What?
什么？
Kirk I started digging a grave next to Joe, like a big hole, a little bit every day so that if he died, there would be a big hole right next to him.
柯克 我开始在乔旁边挖一个坟墓，就像一个大洞，每天挖一点，这样如果他死了，他旁边就会有一个大洞。
That was my smart idea.
这是我的聪明主意。
And then Mamie and Gramps got home, and they're like, what are you doing?
然后玛米和爷爷回到家，他们问，你在做什么？
I was like, I'm digging a grave for Joe.
我当时想，我正在为乔挖坟墓。
And they're like, why don't you just call the veterinarian?
他们说，你为什么不打电话给兽医呢？
And the veterinarian came and gave him a shot, and he was totally fine.
兽医来了，给他打了一针，他就完全好了。
But after that, Joe kind of looked at me a little funny.
但在那之后，乔用一种有点滑稽的眼神看着我。
What was the moment you realized, oh, this is not the right story for this moment?
是什么时候你意识到，哦，这不适合此时此刻的故事？
Well, when I realized it was a creature that I was-- a beloved pet of ours that I was convinced was about to die.
好吧，当我意识到我是一个生物时——我们心爱的宠物，我确信它即将死去。
And digging a grave for him.
还给他挖了坟。
Kirk But halfway through, I realized, oh, god, I'm getting them right into death, and dying, and uncertainty about how to handle a situation.
柯克：但是在中途，我意识到，哦，天啊，我正在让他们走向死亡，垂死，并且不确定如何处理这种情况。
How do I get out of this?
我该如何摆脱这个困境？
I don't really want to talk about, like, dying and graves right now.
我现在真的不想谈论死亡和坟墓之类的事情。
Sorry.
对不起。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
OK, let's-- August It's OK, Daddy.
好吧，让我们——八月 没关系，爸爸。
It's OK.
没关系。
Kirk I rode that horse all the time.
柯克 我一直骑那匹马。
Kirk and his family were lucky, unlike so many families in Los Angeles right now.
柯克和他的家人很幸运，不像现在洛杉矶的许多家庭。
They're now back in their home.
他们现在回到了自己的家。
The tortoise is fine.
乌龟还好啊
But in that moment, when it was so unclear what to do, and he and his wife MJ were trying to pretend that things were going to be fine when they really had no idea at all and were scared they were not going to be fine, when his brain searched for a story to tell the children, this one with the horse is the one that popped up.
但在那一刻，当他和他的妻子 MJ 非常不清楚该做什么时，他和他的妻子 MJ 试图假装一切都会好起来，但实际上他们根本不知道，并且害怕自己不会好起来，当他的大脑搜索一个故事来告诉孩子们时，这个有马的故事就出现了。
And if I really think about it, that story is about decision-making without enough information.
如果我认真思考一下，这个故事就是在没有足够信息的情况下做出决策的。
I didn't know what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
And the best idea I came up with was just impossibly stupid.
我想出的最好的主意却愚蠢得令人难以置信。
But yeah, the moral of that story is like, sometimes, you choose poorly.
但是，是的，这个故事的寓意是，有时，你的选择很糟糕。
These kind of moments, when you feel the Earth shifting underneath you, and you just have to figure out what you're going to do in this new reality, that's what our show is about today-- people with different pivot points in their lives, between what was and what's about to happen.
在这样的时刻，当你感觉到地球在你脚下发生变化时，你只需要弄清楚在这个新的现实中你要做什么，这就是我们今天的节目的主题——人们在生活中处于不同的转折点，在过去发生的事情和即将发生的事情之间。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
This American Life, Act One, Who's Laughing Now?
《美国生活》第一幕，现在谁在笑？
So we start today with this story about somebody who's been thinking a lot about one particular pivot point that the world might go through.
因此，我们今天从这个故事开始，讲述的是一个人一直在思考世界可能经历的一个特定枢轴点。
Nancy Updike went to meet him.
南希·厄普代克去见他。
Got a question for you out there listening-- have you ever had a bloody nose?
有一个问题要问你——你鼻子流血过吗？
I ask because I got a bloody nose recently, when I went to do an interview with a British comedy writer and director named Armando Iannucci.
我问这个问题是因为最近我去采访一位名叫阿曼多·伊安努奇的英国喜剧作家兼导演时，鼻子流血了。
He made the TV show Veep for HBO, now MAX, with Julia Louis-Dreyfus playing the vice president.
他为 HBO（现为 MAX）制作了电视节目《副总统》，朱莉娅·路易斯-德雷弗斯 (Julia Louis-Dreyfus) 饰演副总统。
He made a movie called The Death of Stalin, a comedy-- somehow-- about the battle for succession in the Soviet Union after Stalin died.
他制作了一部名为《斯大林之死》的喜剧，以某种方式讲述了斯大林去世后苏联的继承权之战。
And he made a movie that I especially love called In the Loop, about the lead-up to a war that isn't identified as the Iraq War, but seems a lot like the Iraq War-- also a comedy.
他还拍了一部我特别喜欢的电影，名叫《In the Loop》，讲述了一场不被称为伊拉克战争、但看起来很像伊拉克战争的战争的故事——也是一部喜剧。
Armando Iannucci gets called prescient a lot, but I think of him not so much as prescient as in tune.
阿曼多·伊安努奇经常被称为有先见之明，但我认为他与其说是有先见之明，不如说是合拍的。
He follows the news.
他关注新闻。
He is paying attention to now.
他现在正在关注。
Veep got into aspects of the political culture in Washington in a way no other show did-- the epic pettiness, the unglamorous maneuvering.
《副总统》以其他节目无法比拟的方式切入华盛顿政治文化的方方面面——史诗般的琐碎、乏味的策略。
I'm always interested to see, through his work, what he finds funny, and relevant, and sometimes frightening in the world.
我总是有兴趣通过他的作品了解他认为世界上有趣的、相关的、有时甚至令人恐惧的东西。
So I went to London to interview him about one of his new projects, a new play, which I will get to.
所以我去伦敦采访他，了解他的一个新项目，一部新剧，我会去采访的。
But right now, all you need to know is that I came to the interview as a fan, straight up.
但现在，你只需要知道我是作为粉丝来接受采访的。
I didn't hide it, but I didn't lead with it either.
我没有隐藏它，但我也没有带头。
We were both there to do our jobs.
我们都在那里做我们的工作。
I was told I would get an hour with him.
有人告诉我我可以和他在一起一个小时。
To be safe, I was 15 minutes early.
为了安全起见，我提前了15分钟。
And while I was waiting, I got a bloody nose.
当我等待的时候，我的鼻子流血了。
I got the bloody nose while I was standing in the living room, type room, somewhere upstairs, at the Noel Coward Theater in London, a room that has a white carpet, and white upholstered chairs, and a silver upholstered couch.
当我站在伦敦诺埃尔考沃德剧院楼上某个地方的起居室打字室时，我的鼻子流血了，房间里铺着白色地毯，白色软垫椅子和银色软垫沙发。
I pulled a bunch of tissues from my bag-- pretty much always have tissues.
我从包里拿出一堆纸巾——几乎总是有纸巾。
And I was holding a pile of them to my bloody nose.
我把一堆东西放在我该死的鼻子前。
Normal-- it happens.
正常——它会发生。
I get bloody noses sometimes.
我有时会流鼻血。
Then I ran out of tissues.
然后我的纸巾用完了。
So I started using paper towels from the kitchenette that was attached to the living room.
所以我开始使用客厅附属小厨房的纸巾。
And it was a lot of blood.
而且流了很多血。
So I had a big wad of paper towels pressed to my nose, trying not to drip on the white rug, when Armando Iannucci walked through the kitchenette and into the living room.
所以当阿曼多·伊安努奇穿过小厨房走进客厅时，我把一大团纸巾压在鼻子上，尽量不让纸巾滴到白色地毯上。
He and the publicist were concerned.
他和公关人员都很担心。
He said, do you need a few minutes?
他说，需要几分钟吗？
He understood about bloody noses.
他了解流鼻血的事。
The publicist said, would you like to use the toilet?
公关人员说，你想上厕所吗？
I said, yes, that would be great.
我说，是的，那就太好了。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
I am so sorry about this.
对此我感到非常抱歉。
Where is that toilet?
那个厕所在哪里？
And I went to the bathroom to wrap this mess up.
我去洗手间收拾残局。
And I had what seemed to be a rolling series of bloody noses or one big one that had many phases-- I don't know.
我的鼻子似乎是一连串滚动的流血的鼻子，或者是一个有很多阶段的大鼻子——我不知道。
But what I do know from sad, gross experience is that a bloody nose means there's a clot somewhere high up in my nose that needs to come out for the bloody nose to stop.
但我从悲伤、恶心的经历中确实知道，流鼻血意味着我鼻子高处有一个凝块，需要将其取出才能停止流血。
So I was trying to blow my nose and blow the clot out, and it took me some time to realize that as I was doing that-- unsuccessfully-- I was spraying tiny droplets of blood all over-- the sink, the toilet seat, the floor, the mirror, the wallpaper-- the wallpaper.
所以我试着擤鼻涕，把血块吹出来，我花了一些时间才意识到，当我这么做的时候——没有成功——我把微小的血滴喷得到处都是——水槽、马桶座圈、地板、镜子、壁纸——壁纸。
I started wiping everywhere like it was a crime scene.
我开始擦拭各处，就像这是犯罪现场一样。
And I rolled up a tight, little roll of toilet paper and stuck it up my right nostril to catch the blood.
我卷起一小卷卫生纸，塞进右鼻孔以接血。
That's what I do at home when I have a bloody nose and no one's looking.
当我鼻子流血而没有人注意时，我就会在家里做这件事。
And the little roll of toilet paper filled with blood and fell on the floor as I was wiping the floor.
当我擦地板时，那卷沾满血的卫生纸掉在了地板上。
I had to roll up another one.
我不得不卷起另一张。
That filled with blood.
那充满了血。
Roll up a new one, take out the old one.
把新的卷起来，把旧的拿出来。
Repeat, repeat.
重复，重复。
I went through an entire roll of toilet paper and had to start a new one.
我用完了一卷卫生纸，不得不开始新的一卷。
So I was pacing around this little bathroom with toilet paper in my nose, looking for tiny blood drops, and muttering to myself, you gotta wrap this up.
所以我在这个小浴室里踱来踱去，鼻子里塞着卫生纸，寻找微小的血滴，并对自己嘀咕，你得把它包起来。
Wrap it up.
把它包起来。
Wrap this up.
总结一下。
And time was passing.
时间在流逝。
So I started thinking, maybe I could interview Armando Iannucci with rolled up toilet paper sticking out of my nose.
所以我开始思考，也许我可以用卷起的卫生纸从鼻子里伸出来采访阿曼多·伊安努奇。
Or-- or-- maybe I could stick a really tiny bit of toilet paper far enough up my nose that he wouldn't see it, but it would still block the blood.
或者——或者——也许我可以把一小块卫生纸粘在鼻子上足够远的地方，这样他就看不到它了，但它仍然会阻塞血液。
This nosebleed went on for half an hour.
这鼻血持续了半个小时。
It was a full-on anxiety dream come to life.
这是一个完全焦虑的梦想成真了。
And Armando Iannucci's movies and TV shows are full of awkward scenes that happen on the job-- a person trying to do a serious thing and getting thwarted by something dumb and embarrassing, like a pair of squeaky shoes.
阿曼多·伊安努奇 (Armando Iannucci) 的电影和电视节目中充满了工作中发生的尴尬场景——一个人试图做一件严肃的事情，但却被一些愚蠢而尴尬的事情所阻碍，比如一双吱吱作响的鞋子。
In one of his movies, an assistant secretary of state starts bleeding from her teeth in the middle of a meeting.
在他的一部电影中，一位助理国务卿在会议进行到一半时牙齿开始流血。
And what usually happens in these scenes is the person just gets pounced on, mocked without mercy by their colleagues, or rivals, or the press.
在这些场景中通常会发生的是，这个人会遭到同事、竞争对手或媒体的猛烈攻击和无情的嘲笑。
Any vulnerability or misstep is noticed and weaponized.
任何漏洞或失误都会被注意到并被武器化。
But Armando Iannucci, the real person, in real life, did something completely different.
但现实生活中的真实人物阿曼多·伊安努奇却做了完全不同的事情。
I walked out of the bathroom, not even sure the interview was still possible.
我走出卫生间，甚至不确定采访是否还可能。
So much time had been lost.
已经浪费了很多时间。
And he said, with perfect grace, I'm not in a rush.
他非常优雅地说，我并不着急。
He and the publicist, Nada, simply put the whole thing behind us.
他和公关人员纳达（Nada）干脆把整件事抛在了脑后。
Nada said, look, he's got a photo shoot in half an hour, but he can come back after that.
纳达说，你看，半小时后他要拍照片，不过他可以在那之后回来。
Armando said, we'll talk for a while.
阿曼多说，我们再聊一会儿。
And then I'll go and come back, and we'll talk more.
然后我会回去，我们会再谈更多。
It was like he waved a wand over me and said, you had a nightmare, and now it's over-- which is the opposite of what happens in his new play.
就像他对我挥舞魔杖说，你做了一场噩梦，现在一切都结束了——这与他的新剧中发生的情况相反。
I wanted to interview Armando because his work is so good at capturing things about now, about the present.
我想采访阿曼多，因为他的作品非常善于捕捉当下的事物。
And I saw that he was doing a stage version of an old Cold War film, Dr. Strangelove by Stanley Kubrick.
我看到他正在表演一部老冷战电影的舞台版本，斯坦利·库布里克的《奇爱博士》。
And I found it alarming that this was his next project.
令人震惊的是，这是他的下一个项目。
I mean, it's a comedy, but the last scene is nuclear armageddon and the end of the world.
我的意思是，这是一部喜剧，但最后一幕是核末日和世界末日。
So what did he see in it that spoke to him about now?
那么他现在在其中看到了什么？
Why choose that particular story out of all possible stories at this moment?
为什么此时此刻要从所有可能的故事中选择那个特定的故事？
Well, part of the answer to why now is someone asked.
好吧，现在有人问了为什么的部分答案。
Well, Dr. Strangelove is one of those films that's it's always been in my top five movies of all time.
嗯，《奇爱博士》就是其中一部，它一直是我有史以来排名前五的电影之一。
Ladies and gentlemen, Armando Iannucci.
女士们先生们，阿曼多·伊安努奇。
He got a call from the director and co-adapter of the play, Sean Foley, who asked Armando, did he want to work on it with him?
他接到了该剧的导演兼联合改编者肖恩·福利 (Sean Foley) 的电话，后者问阿曼多，是否愿意与他合作？
And Armando quickly said, yes.
阿曼多很快说，是的。
I think it's the best dark comedy film ever made.
我认为这是有史以来最好的黑色喜剧电影。
I'm a huge Kubrick fan.
我是库布里克的超级粉丝。
The other reason I said yes was because-- and this was several years ago-- at the time, climate change was becoming a much more stark reality.
我答应的另一个原因是——那是几年前的事了——当时，气候变化正在成为一个更加严峻的现实。
There was a kind of a sensation of, if we don't do something immediately about this, the world isn't going to come back from it, that sense of us as a collective species still being unable to save ourselves from our own behavior.
有一种感觉，如果我们不立即采取行动，世界就不会从中恢复过来，我们作为一个集体物种仍然无法将自己从自己的行为中拯救出来。
Us, as a species, being unable to save ourselves from our own behavior is the plot of Dr. Strangelove.
作为一个物种，我们无法从自己的行为中拯救自己，这就是《奇爱博士》的情节。
The entire story lives in the minutes right before the world pivots from a planet full of life to a deathscape of ashes and poison.
整个故事发生在世界从充满生命的星球转向灰烬和毒药的死亡景象之前的几分钟。
The story is an American general goes quietly nuts.
故事讲述的是一位美国将军悄悄发疯的故事。
He's a conspiracy theorist who believes commies are poisoning America through fluoridation.
他是一位阴谋论者，认为共产党正在通过氟化物毒害美国。
To stop that, he sends US bombers off to start a nuclear war with the Soviet Union.
为了阻止这种情况，他派遣美国轰炸机与苏联发动核战争。
When reasonable people on both sides realize what's happening, they try to stop it.
当双方理智的人意识到发生了什么时，他们就会试图阻止它。
The US president gets so desperate that he gives the Soviets the information they need to shoot down the planes.
美国总统非常绝望，他向苏联提供了击落飞机所需的信息。
But one bomber gets through anyway, triggering a cascade of nuclear bombs to fire automatically, destroying the world.
但无论如何，一架轰炸机成功通过，引发一连串核弹自动发射，摧毁了世界。
Everyone on stage realizes there's a good chance the world might end, but they can't quite admit it.
舞台上的每个人都意识到世界很可能会终结，但他们又不能完全承认这一点。
It's like a very slow-motion car crash that you're watching.
这就像您正在观看的一场非常慢动作的车祸。
And everyone's caught up in it, but unable to because of their own desire to retain their own status and to prove their point over the enemy, leading to annihilation.
而每个人都深陷其中，但却无法因为自己的愿望而保住自己的地位，并向敌人证明自己的观点，从而导致灭亡。
More than any one-to-one correspondence with the news now, there's a feeling to Strangelove that I found familiar, a sense that enormous danger is looming, but we're also wading through a sludge of ridiculousness.
现在，与新闻的一对一对应相比，我对《奇爱博士》有一种熟悉的感觉，一种巨大的危险迫在眉睫的感觉，但我们也正在经历荒谬的泥沼。
I feel some level of dread all the time for a while now.
一段时间以来，我一直感到某种程度的恐惧。
And I had a hunch, based on Armando's work, that he might have a similar feeling.
根据阿曼多的工作，我有一种预感，他可能也有类似的感觉。
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Yeah, dread-- yes.
是的，恐惧——是的。
I think we're all anxious about something, but for each person, it's a different thing, or we can't quite put a finger on it.
我想我们都会为某些事情感到焦虑，但对于每个人来说，这是不同的事情，或者我们不能完全指出它。
There's just a cumulative atmosphere of dread and foreboding, but not quite knowing what--
只有一种累积起来的恐惧和不祥的气氛，但不太清楚是什么——
I mean, was it a way for you to channel-- to organize or contain your own dread as a project?
我的意思是，这是你将自己的恐惧作为一个项目进行组织或遏制的一种方式吗？
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
It's a way of articulating it.
这是表达它的一种方式。
It's a way of processing it.
这是一种处理方式。
Or it's a way of dramatizing it.
或者说这是一种戏剧化的方式。
Once I got an answer to why make Strangelove now, we moved into a meandery but very enjoyable conversation about how to confront your dread these days, because I am taking suggestions, and Armando's work is something I've returned to again and again.
当我得到为什么现在制作《奇爱博士》的答案后，我们就开始了一场曲折但非常愉快的对话，讨论如何面对这些天的恐惧，因为我正在接受建议，而阿曼多的作品是我一次又一次回顾的东西。
And what I'm thinking now is that, especially with his movies and with Strangelove, I come for the comedy, but maybe stay for the dread.
我现在的想法是，尤其是他的电影和《奇爱博士》，我是为了喜剧而来，但也许留下来是为了恐惧。
So we talked about how do you go about making comedy out of catastrophe and fear?
所以我们讨论了如何从灾难和恐惧中制作喜剧？
You've said that people underestimate comedy, which I agree, especially about things that are big and terrifying.
你说过人们低估了喜剧，我同意这一点，尤其是那些宏大而可怕的事情。
But make the case.
但要说明情况。
What do people underestimate its ability to do that you feel like, no, no, it's best?
人们低估了它的哪些能力，而你却觉得“不，不，这是最好的”？
It's best at that?
最好的是这个？
I'm not arguing comedy is better.
我并不是说喜剧更好。
It just gives you another way in.
它只是为你提供了另一种进入方式。
And I think comedy, I think it just allows you to open up your mind a bit.
我认为喜剧，我认为它只是让你敞开心扉一点。
If you find yourself laughing at something and then asking yourself, should I have laughed at that?
如果你发现自己在笑某件事，然后问自己，我应该笑吗？
Or-- well, well, if you've laughed at it, then you should.
或者——好吧，好吧，如果你笑过它，那么你应该笑。
It's spontaneous.
这是自发的。
I think that's why autocratic leaders hate jokes about themselves because--
我认为这就是为什么独裁领导人讨厌拿自己开玩笑的原因，因为——
Yeah, they're spontaneous.
是的，他们是自发的。
They can't control it or predict it.
他们无法控制或预测它。
It's out of their hands.
这不在他们的掌控之中。
They like stuff where they could tell you what to do.
他们喜欢可以告诉你该做什么的东西。
And comedy allows what might otherwise feel forbidding and inaccessible theme.
喜剧允许一些原本令人生畏和难以接近的主题。
It allows you that entry point.
它允许您进入该入口点。
Before making The Death of Stalin, I went back and watched The Great Dictator.
在拍《斯大林之死》之前，我回去看了《大独裁者》。
The Great Dictator is a movie about Hitler that Charlie Chaplin put out, incredibly, in 1940.
《大独裁者》是一部关于希特勒的电影，查理·卓别林于 1940 年推出，令人难以置信。
So not even with the benefit of hindsight-- right in the middle of it.
所以即使有事后诸葛亮的好处——就在中间。
And he treads this line between high comedy-- fantastic, memorable comedic moments like Adenoid Hynkel, the dictator, just playing with a globe, picking Earth up in his hands and dancing with it, and then scenes set in the Jewish ghetto, which are not funny, not meant to be funny.
他在高级喜剧之间徘徊——奇妙的、令人难忘的喜剧时刻，比如独裁者阿德诺伊德·海克尔(Adenoid Hynkel)，他只是玩弄一个地球仪，拿起地球并与它一起跳舞，然后是在犹太人聚居区的场景，这些场景并不好笑，也不是故意好笑的。
And it's this balance between the funny and the tragic.
这就是有趣和悲剧之间的平衡。
And I knew when going into The Death of Stalin, that's what I wanted to do.
当我进入《斯大林之死》时，我知道这就是我想做的。
And I said to everyone when we started filming, I said to the crew and to the cast, it's a comedy, but we must also be mindful and respectful of what happened to the people.
当我们开始拍摄时，我对大家说，我对剧组和演员们说，这是一部喜剧，但我们也必须留意和尊重人们所发生的事情。
We're not making fun of the deaths and the punishments they were making.
我们并不是在取笑他们的死亡和他们所受到的惩罚。
The comedy comes from those inside the Kremlin.
这部喜剧来自克里姆林宫内部的人。
And it was holding those two tones and moods simultaneously.
它同时保持着这两种语气和情绪。
Armando pulls it off because he doesn't skimp on either the bad in The Death of Stalin or the comedy.
阿曼多成功了，因为他既不吝惜《斯大林之死》中的坏事，也不吝惜喜剧。
The bad is quite bad, and the funny is really funny.
坏的是相当坏，搞笑的是真的好笑。
And one way I've noticed that he keeps those two moods aloft at the same time in many of his projects, he often focuses on people who work together.
我注意到他在许多项目中同时保持这两种情绪，他经常关注一起工作的人。
In The Death of Stalin, there's this intense rivalry among the men around Stalin, all jockeying for power after he dies, scheming, and whingeing, and flailing.
在《斯大林之死》中，斯大林身边的人之间存在着激烈的竞争，他们在他死后争夺权力，诡计多端，牢骚满腹，挥舞不定。
That workplace power struggle is what made Veep so funny, too.
职场上的权力斗争也让《副总统》变得如此有趣。
In the Strangelove play, the president and his advisors are in the war room, gathered around a ludicrously large, circular table, mostly arguing.
在奇爱剧中，总统和他的顾问们在作战室里，聚集在一张大得可笑的圆桌周围，大部分时间都在争论。
And one guy, a guy you may know from your own job, keeps throwing out bad ideas in a loud voice, in a sort of Roman Roy, "I'm the only one being real here" way.
还有一个人，你可能在自己的工作中认识的一个人，总是大声地抛出坏主意，就像罗马·罗伊那样，“我是这里唯一真实的人”。
For instance, he argues that maybe the thing to do is to lean into this attack the US has launched.
例如，他认为也许要做的就是顺应美国发起的这次攻击。
Not bring back the bombers that are on their way, but send more planes with more bombs.
不是带回正在途中的轰炸机，而是派更多的飞机携带更多的炸弹。
Try to win this war, rather than try to stop it.
努力赢得这场战争，而不是试图阻止它。
It all makes sense under something called Plan R.
在 R 计划下，这一切都有意义。
It would remove all uncertainty if we pretaliate.
如果我们预先采取行动，所有的不确定性都会消除。
Pretali what?
普雷塔利什么？
Man 3 Pretaliate.
男子3 预谋。
I think this is a new word.
我认为这是一个新词。
See, conventionally, if the Russians attack us, our only option is to--
按照惯例，如果俄罗斯人攻击我们，我们唯一的选择是——
Retaliate!
报复！
Man 1 Plan R gives us a second option.
Man 1 Plan R 给了我们第二种选择。
We pretaliate before they even think of taliating.
在他们考虑报复之前我们就先行报复。
Nuclear preterrence, sir, in a nutshell.
先生，简而言之，就是核威慑。
It's bulletproof.
它是防弹的。
Pretaliate isn't in the Strangelove movie, but it was built out of logic that is in there, and that Armando and the director and co-adaptor Sean Foley expanded and riffed on.
《预报复》并没有出现在《奇爱博士》电影中，但它是根据电影中的逻辑构建的，阿曼多和导演兼联合改编者肖恩·弗利对此进行了扩展和重复。
I've spent the last whatever-- [LAUGHS] several decades examining politicians, their speech, and how they use rhetoric to disguise or to pretend something is not what it is and so on.
我花了最后的时间——[笑]几十年来研究政客、他们的言论，以及他们如何使用修辞来掩饰或假装某些东西不是它本来的样子等等。
But Armando says, sometimes, you really don't need to riff or invent.
但阿曼多说，有时，你真的不需要即兴演奏或发明。
Sometimes comedy is just sitting there, waiting to be picked up, like a $100 bill on the sidewalk.
有时喜剧只是坐在那里，等待被捡起，就像人行道上的 100 美元钞票一样。
In the film, it opens with the Air Force gate saying, "Peace is our profession." I thought that was a gag.
影片中，空军大门一开，“和平是我们的职业”。我以为那是个笑话。
I thought Kubrick made it up.
我以为是库布里克编的。
In the archive, you come in.
在档案馆里，你进来。
There's the photo.
那是照片。
It exists.
它存在。
This is in the Kubrick archive, he says.
他说，这是库布里克档案馆里的。
He saw this photo of an Air Force base with "Peace is our profession" written on it.
他看到了这张空军基地的照片，上面写着“和平是我们的职业”。
So again, he's taking what's true and just putting it in, you know?
再说一次，他把真实的东西放进去，你知道吗？
Yeah, "Peace is our profession" shows up a bunch of times in the movie, along with other funny sight gags of just the way things are labeled.
是的，“和平是我们的职业”在电影中出现了很多次，还有其他有趣的视觉笑话，就像事物的标签一样。
And I thought-- I thought "peace is our profession" was over the top.
我认为“和平是我们的职业”太过分了。
I thought, oh, it's too much.
我想，哦，太多了。
I know.
我知道。
And it was real.
这是真实的。
It was real.
这是真的。
I know.
我知道。
I know.
我知道。
And that's when you just think, you don't have to embroider it.
那时你就会想，你不必绣花。
If what is true makes the point, then make that point with the truth.
如果事实证明了这一点，那就用事实来证明这一点。
With The Death of Stalin, as we researched the story, we kept finding more and more stories that were just absurd, but actually happened.
在《斯大林之死》中，当我们研究这个故事时，我们不断发现越来越多的故事虽然荒谬，但却确实发生过。
Like a scene that ended up in the movie about Stalin's son, Vasili.
就像电影中关于斯大林的儿子瓦西里的场景一样。
Vasili was high up in the Soviet Air Force.
瓦西里在苏联空军中身居高位。
He was overpromoted.
他被过度提拔了。
He was drunk.
他喝醉了。
He was in charge of the ice hockey team.
他负责冰球队。
He sent them to a tournament in an ice storm.
他派他们去参加冰暴中的锦标赛。
He was warned there'd be a danger to the flight.
他被警告飞行会有危险。
The flight went down.
航班坠毁了。
He lost the ice hockey team.
他失去了冰球队。
He was too scared to tell his father, so he just recruited friends of friends for a new team, who were terrible.
他不敢告诉父亲，所以他只是招募了朋友的朋友组成了一支新团队，但他们的表现很糟糕。
And that's such a bizarre story, but it says so much about even his son was scared of him.
这是一个非常奇怪的故事，但它充分说明了甚至他的儿子也害怕他。
And that's what I'm saying.
这就是我要说的。
It's all about the truth, you know?
一切都是为了真相，你知道吗？
It's the truth of what people really felt at the time.
这是当时人们的真实感受。
How can we get to that, that uneasy feeling they had at the bottom of the stomach for years, that they might be rounded up and taken away in the middle of the night?
我们怎样才能体会到多年来他们内心深处的那种不安感，担心他们可能会在半夜被围捕并带走？
I've now seen Dr. Strangelove a bunch of times, the movie and then the play, and every time I think, so no one wins in the end, the bad ideas don't prevail.
我现在已经看过《奇爱博士》很多次了，电影和戏剧，每次我都会想，所以最后没有人获胜，坏主意不会占上风。
Nothingness prevails.
虚无占上风。
It's shocking.
太令人震惊了。
Many times in my life, I've looked back at a specific moment and thought, oh right, that was before, before I knew that, before this happened.
在我的一生中，很多时候，我回顾某个特定的时刻，想，哦，对了，那是以前，在我知道之前，在这件事发生之前。
But it's much more unsettling to experience now, the moment you are currently in, as that before time.
但现在，你现在所处的时刻，与以前一样，体验起来更加令人不安。
To look around and feel that you will look back on this moment as one that came before so many losses or changes or hardships.
环顾四周，你会觉得这一刻发生在许多损失、变化或困难之前。
Dr. Strangelove, the play, gave the audience a chance to, sure, laugh, but also to feel that dread, to see ourselves as living in a time before, before something.
《奇爱博士》这部剧确实让观众有机会大笑，但也让他们感受到恐惧，看到自己生活在一个以前的时代，以前的某个事物。
It's not clear what.
目前还不清楚是什么。
Nuclear bombs have a narrative advantage that way.
核弹在这方面具有叙事优势。
They have one iconic image associated with them-- a recognizable brand of destruction.
他们有一个与之相关的标志性形象——一种可识别的破坏品牌。
What is the right image for what's on our horizon-- or mine?
对于我们或我的视野中的事物来说，什么才是正确的形象？
I'll just speak for myself, my dread.
我只想为自己说话，我的恐惧。
I rewatched the movie and saw the play during the hottest year on record, in the summer before the US presidential election.
我重看了这部电影，并在有记录以来最热的一年里观看了该剧，即美国总统大选前的夏天。
I'm writing this story wondering how much of Los Angeles is going to burn and whether there's going to be a nationwide ban on abortion, mass deportations.
我写这篇文章的目的是想知道洛杉矶有多少地区会被烧毁，以及是否会在全国范围内禁止堕胎和大规模驱逐。
I don't have a picture in my head to focus on.
我脑子里没有可以集中注意力的画面。
It feels more like a play-- a lot of dialogue, and I'm experiencing it live.
感觉更像是一场戏剧——有很多对话，而且我正在现场体验。
The stage version of Dr. Strangelove-- which, by the way, stars Steve Coogan in several different roles-- is playing at the Noel Coward Theater in London through January 25 and will be in Dublin from February 5 to February 22.
顺便说一句，由史蒂夫·库根主演的舞台版《奇爱博士》将在伦敦诺埃尔·科沃德剧院上演至 1 月 25 日，并将于 2 月 5 日至 2 月 22 日在都柏林上演。
Act Two, The View from the Dugout.
第二幕，防空洞里的景色。
So one of the things that seems likely to change once Donald Trump is, again, in the White House is US policy toward Ukraine.
因此，一旦唐纳德·特朗普再次入主白宫，美国对乌克兰的政策似乎可能会发生变化。
His vice president, JD Vance, has called for an end to aid to Ukraine and describe a peace plan that basically lets Russia keep the territory it's gained.
他的副总统万斯呼吁停止对乌克兰的援助，并描述了一项和平计划，该计划基本上让俄罗斯保留其获得的领土。
Donald Trump has been vaguer about his intentions, but he's been a skeptic of continued aid.
唐纳德·特朗普对其意图一直含糊其辞，但他对持续援助持怀疑态度。
He has said many times that he was going to end the war in 24 hours.
他多次表示要在24小时内结束战争。
We wondered what it's like for Ukrainian soldiers, who depend on US arms right now, to see all of this at this pivot point, and how they're imagining what's going to happen next once Trump takes office.
我们想知道现在依赖美国武器的乌克兰士兵在这个关键点看到这一切会是什么样的，以及他们如何想象特朗普上任后接下来会发生什么。
Our producer, Valerie Kipnis, spoke with a bunch of people on the front lines.
我们的制片人瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis) 与许多前线人员进行了交谈。
The first soldier I want to tell you about is Serhei.
我想告诉你的第一个士兵是Serhei。
He's a former vegan chef from Kyiv.
他是基辅的前素食厨师。
He'd quit his job to join the army a year ago.
一年前他辞去了工作去参军。
He's really proud of the fact that his unit recycles.
他对他的设备可以回收利用感到非常自豪。
When I asked how he described what his unit looks like when they're in action, he said, like Hobbits in a bunker, Hobbits with mortars.
当我问他如何描述他的部队在行动时的样子时，他说，就像地堡里的霍比特人，拿着迫击炮的霍比特人。
Serhei told me that it's a strange feeling to live in this moment of time before things might change.
瑟海告诉我，生活在事情可能发生变化之前的这一刻，感觉很奇怪。
Everyone around him believes in anything and everything, all at the same time.
他周围的每个人都同时相信任何事情。
There's nothing that's not in the realm of possibility.
没有什么是不可能的。
I've definitely felt like-- and still might feel-- like time has stopped.
我确实感觉——并且仍然可能感觉——时间已经停止了。
Time has stopped.
时间停止了。
And something needs to happen.
需要发生一些事情。
Like right now, you're living in the part of time that's stopped.
就像现在一样，你生活在停止的时间里。
Definitely, definitely.
绝对，绝对。
Everything simultaneously, like with this.
一切都是同时进行的，就像这样。
Everything is real.
一切都是真实的。
Everything might be real.
一切都可能是真的。
Everything might happen.
一切都可能发生。
So there is no reasons why tomorrow or in a week, whole Europe, and UK, and the US might not decide behind closed doors and just provide Ukraine with a decision to stop military funding.
因此，明天或一周后，整个欧洲、英国和美国没有理由不闭门做出决定，直接向乌克兰提供停止军事资助的决定。
And of course, that would be a huge impact on our ability to keep on fighting.
当然，这将对我们继续战斗的能力产生巨大影响。
Oh, one second, one second.
哦，一秒钟，一秒钟。
Let me-- here if you'll hear it.
让我——如果你能听到的话。
[ALARM BLARING] So there is an air alert going on, if you can hear the signal.
[警报声] 如果您能听到信号，那么空中警报正在进行。
It kind of sounds like those-- there might be some air attack, like drones, or a missile, or something like this.
听起来有点像——可能会有一些空袭，比如无人机、导弹或类似的东西。
Do you have to go hide somewhere, or what do you do?
你必须躲到某个地方吗？或者你该怎么办？
No, I'll go brew myself a cup of tea maybe.
不，我也许会去给自己泡杯茶。
That's how long this war has been going on, long enough that there's an air attack, and you go brew yourself a cup of tea.
这场战争已经持续了这么久，足够长到发生空袭，你去给自己泡杯茶。
When Donald Trump won the election, Serhei was sitting in a dugout on the front line.
当唐纳德·特朗普赢得大选时，谢尔海坐在前线的防空洞里。
That's basically just a big square hole in the ground, 100 square feet, like in World War I, five guys all huddled together.
那基本上只是地上的一个大方洞，100平方英尺，就像第一次世界大战时那样，五个人挤在一起。
That night, they'd just finished firing at the Russians, sat down to rest, when one of the guys in his unit went on X, saw the news that Trump was winning, and read it aloud.
那天晚上，他们刚刚完成对俄罗斯人的射击，坐下来休息，这时他所在部队的一个人上了X，看到了特朗普获胜的消息，并大声朗读了出来。
He went all like, oh, this guy wins.
他的反应就是，哦，这家伙赢了。
And if he wins, he will end all the help to Ukraine, and we are basically screwed.
如果他获胜，他将结束对乌克兰的所有帮助，我们基本上就完蛋了。
We went into full discussion of how the American democracy works, like bringing up Wikipedia pages.
我们充分讨论了美国民主的运作方式，比如打开维基百科页面。
We spent around three hours of our night time just by talking, talking, talking about what the president in America has the power to do.
我们晚上花了大约三个小时的时间谈论、谈论、谈论美国总统有权做什么。
Could Trump just stop the war unilaterally?
特朗普能单方面停止战争吗？
Stop sending aid they'd already promised?
停止提供他们已经承诺的援助吗？
And what's the deal with the House and the Senate?
众议院和参议院有何关系？
Did he need their permission?
他需要他们的许可吗？
Serhei and the other soldiers dug and dug for answers.
瑟黑和其他士兵挖啊挖，寻找答案。
And here's where he came down.
这就是他下来的地方。
He concluded that Trump wouldn't have the power to reverse the aid Biden had already promised all at once-- which isn't exactly true, but that's what he told his unit.
他的结论是，特朗普没有权力立即撤销拜登已经承诺的援助——这并不完全正确，但这是他告诉他的部门的。
Did you feel like it was your job to calm everyone down?
你觉得让每个人平静下来是你的工作吗？
Maybe calming in a way that I don't want my crew member to fill their heads with downgraded morale for the next five days.
也许是在某种程度上平静，我不想让我的船员在接下来的五天里充满士气低落的想法。
We need to be going hand in hand for our mission.
我们需要携手并进，完成我们的使命。
These kinds of conversations have been happening on the Ukrainian front line for months now.
此类对话在乌克兰前线已经发生了几个月。
Not all the time, but here and there.
不是所有时候，但有时会这样。
I talked to 10 people in a variety of positions on the front.
我在前线与 10 名处于不同职位的人进行了交谈。
They all laughed when I asked about Trump saying he could finish the war in 24 hours.
当我问特朗普说他可以在 24 小时内结束战争时，他们都笑了。
Of course, they remembered the first time he said it.
当然，他们还记得他第一次说这句话的时候。
They remembered where they were, what they were doing.
他们记得自己在哪里，在做什么。
But they didn't think much of it, except for the fact that Trump was a showman and that this was all part of his act.
但他们并没有多想，只知道特朗普是个爱表演的人，这都是他表演的一部分。
But even so, that didn't stop them from wondering-- what in the world might he mean?
但即便如此，这并没有阻止他们想知道——他到底是什么意思？
Same thing happened a few days after Trump won the election in November.
特朗普赢得 11 月大选后几天也发生了同样的事情。
Joe Biden approved Ukraine's use of long-range missiles.
乔·拜登批准乌克兰使用远程导弹。
The soldiers were excited.
士兵们兴奋不已。
They'd been waiting for this for years.
他们等待这一刻已经很多年了。
But then Donald Trump said that he thought launching long-range missiles into Russia was actually a big mistake.
但随后唐纳德·特朗普表示，他认为向俄罗斯发射远程导弹实际上是一个很大的错误。
One soldier told me that he was on the front line, just finished shooting mortars when he heard what Trump had said.
一名士兵告诉我，他在前线刚打完迫击炮，就听到了特朗普的话。
And he looked at his crew like, what?
他看着他的船员，好像在问什么？
What does this actually mean for us?
这对我们来说实际上意味着什么？
Will they actually take away the approval they've just given us?
他们真的会取消刚刚给予我们的批准吗？
Another soldier who told me about trying to read the tea leaves of American politics is Vitaly, a drone operator.
另一位告诉我试图解读美国政治茶叶的士兵是无人机操作员维塔利。
He's from a region of Ukraine that's been in the fight against Russian occupation since 2014.
他来自乌克兰的一个地区，自 2014 年以来，该地区一直在反抗俄罗斯的占领。
Vitaly has been fighting this war on and off since he was 24.
维塔利从 24 岁起就断断续续地参加了这场战争。
As a drone operator, he spends hours sitting in a bunker watching monitors.
作为一名无人机操作员，他会花几个小时坐在掩体里观察监视器。
He's got two screens in front of him.
他面前有两个屏幕。
On one is a live feed surveillance of the front line and the other, his phone-- social media, group chats, the news-- one right next to the other.
一个是前线的实时监控，另一个是他的手机——社交媒体、群聊、新闻——一个紧挨着另一个。
Oftentimes, we talk in the evenings while looking at the monitors because there's not much action during the night.
通常，我们会在晚上一边看着显示器一边聊天，因为晚上没有太多活动。
The Russians usually start moving early in the morning before the sunrise.
俄罗斯人通常在清晨日出之前开始搬家。
These conversations are meant to pass the time, because now it's winter, and the night is long.
这些谈话是为了打发时间，因为现在是冬天，夜很长。
And you have a lot of time to kill, in fact.
事实上，你还有很多时间可以消磨。
Because war is not always action.
因为战争并不总是行动。
War is very often sitting put for a long time.
战争往往是长期搁置的。
They talk about how Trump, the candidate, could be against funding for Ukraine.
他们谈论候选人特朗普如何反对为乌克兰提供资金。
But Trump, the president, might not be.
但特朗普总统可能不会。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Sometimes, we'll just be sitting there in our positions in the basements, and someone will say that Trump doesn't actually care about any of this, or us, and that he will make a deal with Russia at whatever price is most favorable to him.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 有时，我们只是坐在地下室的位置上，有人会说特朗普实际上并不关心这些，也不关心我们，他会以对他最有利的价格与俄罗斯达成协议。
Then, there's the people who will say that Trump actually understands everything and will try to talk to Putin.
然后，有人会说特朗普实际上了解一切，并会尝试与普京交谈。
And Putin will not want to come to an agreement and will not want to give us any territories.
普京不会想达成协议，也不会想给我们任何领土。
And so Trump will realize that there can be no agreement with Putin and will instead provide us with lots of new weapons, thanks to which we can win.
因此，特朗普会意识到，不可能与普京达成协议，而是会为我们提供大量新武器，借此我们才能获胜。
Vitaly told me he actually finds this last scenario pretty convincing.
维塔利告诉我，他实际上发现最后一个场景非常有说服力。
Other times, he's less optimistic.
其他时候，他就不那么乐观了。
One day, I was sitting looking at the monitor, my phone next to it, just scrolling, and there was Trump's tweet.
有一天，我坐在显示器上，手机放在旁边，轻轻滚动，就看到了特朗普的推文。
And then I turn, and I tell my fellow servicemen, hey, take a look.
然后我转身告诉我的战友，嘿，看一下。
There's Musk, who's considered a visionary.
马斯克被认为是一位有远见的人。
But Musk writes such offensive things about Ukraine.
但马斯克写了一些关于乌克兰的攻击性言论。
Elon Musk has said there's no way that Putin will lose.
埃隆·马斯克曾表示，普京不可能输。
And he pitched a Ukraine, quote unquote, "peace plan" on X, which would cede Crimea to Russia.
他在X上提出了乌克兰的“和平计划”，将克里米亚割让给俄罗斯。
And, now, he's going to be sitting in Trump's administration.
现在，他将进入特朗普政府。
And we were all like, shit.
我们都觉得，妈的。
Maybe he'll change?
也许他会改变？
Maybe he'll be different as a politician when he gets some experience.
也许当他获得一些经验后，作为一名政治家他会有所不同。
One of the guys in the unit said, my brother has a Tesla.
单位里的一个人说，我哥哥有一辆特斯拉。
If I had known this guy would be a part of this, I would have convinced him not to buy it.
如果我知道这个人会参与其中，我就会说服他不要购买。
Trump's victory has cracked open a space for conversations that were once totally off-limits.
特朗普的胜利为曾经完全禁区的对话开辟了空间。
I heard about a moment like that from Artem, a soldier with a big personality.
我从一位个性鲜明的士兵阿尔乔姆那里听说过这样的时刻。
Artem is a volunteer fighter in a unit that calls themselves Peaky Blinders.
阿乔姆是一名志愿战士，加入了一支自称为“浴血黑帮”的部队。
He helps prepare ammunition for drones.
他帮助准备无人机的弹药。
He calls himself the Candy Maker.
他称自己为糖果制造商。
Artem is a big believer that the war is nowhere near ending, Trump or no Trump, funding or no funding.
阿乔姆坚信，战争远未结束，无论有没有特朗普，有资助还是没有资助。
But a few weeks ago, Artem went out with his commander, Zalizniak, and another guy in his unit.
但几周前，阿乔姆与他的指挥官扎利兹尼亚克以及他部队中的另一个人出去了。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter In the evening, we went out to a hookah lounge and sat down to relax with our brothers in arms.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 晚上，我们来到水烟厅，和我们的兄弟们一起坐下来放松。
We were sitting at the table, together with Chyzh and Zalizniak in this cafe, where we ordered ourselves some dinner.
我们和 Chyzh 以及 Zalizniak 一起坐在这家咖啡馆的餐桌旁，我们在那里给自己点了一些晚餐。
And the guys ordered a hookah as well.
这些人还点了一个水烟袋。
I don't smoke hookah, but they do.
我不抽水烟，但他们抽。
That was when our conversation began.
那就是我们的谈话开始的时候。
When the waiter took our order, Zalizniak looked up, deep in thought.
当服务员接受我们的订单时，扎里兹尼亚克抬起头，陷入沉思。
He then turned his eyes to Chyzh and began to ask him some questions.
然后他把目光转向Chyzh，开始问他一些问题。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter He asked, Chyzh, if the war ends, what would you do?
[非英语演讲] 翻译他问，Chyzh，如果战争结束，你会做什么？
He asked what he thought his future would look like after the war was over.
他问战争结束后他认为自己的未来会是什么样子。
They started to speculate what events would unfold, who would travel, who would do what, basically pouring out their hearts to one another.
他们开始猜测将会发生什么事件，谁会去旅行，谁会做什么，基本上是互相倾诉心声。
Artem couldn't believe that he was hearing his fellow brothers in arms talking about what they would do after the war ended-- going to travel, going back to their normal civilian lives.
阿乔姆不敢相信他听到他的战友谈论战争结束后他们会做什么——去旅行，回到正常的平民生活。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter I told him I didn't believe it.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 我告诉他我不相信。
To hear a fellow soldier even whisper the possibility that the fight could be over is still not something Artem is used to.
阿尔乔姆仍然不习惯听到战友甚至低声说战斗可能结束。
The party line of any Ukrainian soldier, of any Ukrainian, really, is that they'll fight to the end, and the fight may never end.
事实上，任何乌克兰士兵、任何乌克兰人的党派路线都是，他们将战斗到底，而且战斗可能永远不会结束。
Expressing any sort of doubt feels almost unpatriotic.
表达任何形式的怀疑都让人感觉几乎不爱国。
But I talked to a Ukrainian expert who's in contact with many high-ranking officials in the army, who told me that while many soldiers remain diehard and committed to keep fighting till the end, another group, which is growing, is made up of people who are getting increasingly weary of this war.
但我采访了一位与军队中许多高级官员有联系的乌克兰专家，他告诉我，虽然许多士兵仍然顽固并致力于继续战斗到底，但另一个正在增长的群体是由越来越厌倦这场战争的人组成的。
Ukraine's recently suffered a series of setbacks and defeats, and the expert says, this group likes that Trump is someone who will change things up.
乌克兰最近遭遇了一系列挫折和失败，专家表示，这个群体喜欢特朗普是一个会改变现状的人。
Artem thought about this moment with his commander for a while.
阿乔姆和他的指挥官一起思考了这一刻。
What had he meant by that?
他这话是什么意思？
Did he actually think this war would end?
他真的认为这场战争会结束吗？
Artem told me this.
阿尔乔姆告诉我这一点。
A few days later, in the midst of heavy bombardment, he studied his commanders face.
几天后，在猛烈的轰炸中，他审视着指挥官们的脸。
He looked like he was all in.
他看起来好像全身心投入。
And so Artem decided that his commander didn't mean what he said.
因此，阿尔乔姆认为他的指挥官所说的并非真心话。
He told me he'd figured it out.
他告诉我他已经弄清楚了。
His commander didn't actually think the war was ending.
他的指挥官实际上并不认为战争已经结束。
He was just testing his unit.
他只是在测试他的设备。
The truth is, these guys don't think about Trump all that much.
事实是，这些人并没有那么关心特朗普。
They've got other things on their minds.
他们心里还有其他事情。
One soldier told me that when you're in the rear, far from the front line, it's easy to imagine all the possibilities of what could happen next.
一名士兵告诉我，当你身处后方，远离前线时，很容易想象接下来会发生什么的所有可能性。
But when you're on the front, it's like all of that collapses into this one linear logic-- the weapon in front of you, the tank next to you, the amount of ammo you have left-- the present, no before and no after.
但当你在前线时，所有这些都崩溃成一个线性逻辑——你面前的武器，你旁边的坦克，你剩下的弹药量——现在，没有之前，也没有之后。
Those are the moments, he said, that feel the greatest for him, when he just does what he can with what he has, when he's not speculating about what will be.
他说，那些时刻对他来说是最美妙的，当他用自己拥有的东西做他能做的事情时，当他不去猜测将会发生什么的时候。
Valerie Kipnis is a producer on our show.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis) 是我们节目的制片人。
She reported this with help from Anastastassiia Mozhghova.
她在阿纳斯塔西娅·莫日霍娃 (Anastassiia Mozhghova) 的帮助下报告了这一情况。
Coming up, the power of a simple photograph in a moment of uncertainty.
接下来，在不确定的时刻，一张简单照片的力量。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today, on our program, Pivot Point.
今天，我们的节目《枢轴点》。
On this weekend, before a new presidency begins, we have stories of people living in these strange and often unsettling in-between moment, when you know things are right on the cusp of big, big changes.
这个周末，在新总统就任之前，我们会讲述人们生活在这些奇怪且常常令人不安的中间时刻的故事，当你知道事情正处于巨大变革的风口浪尖时。
We've arrived at Act Three of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three, Period Piece.
第三幕，时期作品。
So when we were discussing this week's theme as a group here at the radio show, one of our co-workers, Susan Burton, started talking about a year-long pivot point.
因此，当我们在广播节目中作为一个小组讨论本周的主题时，我们的一位同事苏珊·伯顿（Susan Burton）开始谈论长达一年的枢轴点。
It lasts 12 months that many of our listeners have either gone through, or are in the middle of now, or will go through.
持续12个月，我们很多听众要么已经经历过，要么正在经历，要么即将经历。
Quick heads up-- Susan describes some bodily stuff in here.
快速注意——苏珊在这里描述了一些身体上的东西。
Here she is.
她在这里。
I got my first period when I was 10, and then I continued to get it for the next 40 years.
我 10 岁时第一次来月经，之后的 40 年里一直这样。
I didn't get it every month.
我每个月都没有收到。
There were exceptions, blackout dates-- pregnancy, breastfeeding, anorexia.
也有例外，比如怀孕、哺乳、厌食等。
But for most of the 40 years, each month, my period would come, and I'd open a calendar and mark the anticipated date of my next period with a TK, like a forthcoming fact in a piece I was reporting.
但在这 40 年的大部分时间里，每个月我的月经都会到来，我会打开日历并用 TK 标记下一次月经的预计日期，就像我正在报道的一篇文章中即将发布的事实一样。
Sometimes, I would get my period and not have tampons, and then I would go online and order enough tampons so that I would never run out again.
有时，我来月经时没有卫生棉条，然后我会上网订购足够的卫生棉条，这样我就不会再用完卫生棉条了。
And then suddenly, I was about to turn 50, and I understood I would never get through all the tampons I had ordered.
突然之间，我即将年满 50 岁，我意识到我永远无法用完我订购的所有卫生棉条。
What was the first day of your last period?
您上次月经的第一天是哪一天？
Asked the nurse at the gynecologist's office.
妇科医生办公室的护士问道。
OK, I said.
好吧，我说。
I mean, I think it was sometime last month, like August, but it's hard to tell.
我的意思是，我想那是上个月的某个时候，比如八月，但很难说。
I'm at that age, you know?
我已经到了这个年纪了，你知道吗？
Like, I was kind of bleeding all summer.
就像，我整个夏天都在流血。
Not in an alarming way, just, it was hard to tell.
并不是以一种令人震惊的方式，只是，很难说。
You are officially in menopause once you go one full year without a period.
一旦您一整年没有月经，您就正式进入更年期。
So I was not there yet.
所以我还没到那儿。
I was in perimenopause.
我正处于更年期。
During peri, my period had first come a lot, every 18 days.
月经期间，我的月经来得很多，每18天一次。
Over time, that changed-- 60 days between periods, then 90.
随着时间的推移，情况发生了变化——月经间隔 60 天，然后是 90 天。
I'd start thinking, this is it, and then I'd get my period again, and the clock would restart.
我开始想，就是这样了，然后我又来月经了，时钟又重新开始。
Congratulations, a friend said to me one day when the counter reset to zero.
有一天，当计数器重置为零时，一位朋友对我说，恭喜你。
She was kidding, but that was the feeling.
她是在开玩笑，但这就是感觉。
Peri was a safe zone, and I wanted to stay there.
佩里是一个安全区，我想留在那里。
What made peri a safe zone was simply that it was not menopause.
围绝经期成为安全区的原因很简单，它不是更年期。
It was still the before time.
还是之前的时间。
Peri may have been a safe zone, but it was not a safe harbor.
佩里可能是一个安全区，但它不是一个安全港。
During it, I had the common symptoms you hear about and other things you don't-- frozen shoulder, which was just what it sounded like, migraines I managed by digging my fingernails into my forehead.
在此期间，我出现了一些你听说过的常见症状，还有一些你没有听说过的症状——肩周炎（顾名思义），偏头痛，我通过用指甲挖进额头来缓解。
There were remedies for some of the symptoms, but what I tried or didn't is not what I want to get into here.
有些症状有治疗方法，但我尝试过或没有尝试过的并不是我想在这里讨论的。
My point is that I had already been through a few rocky years, years of accelerated aging.
我的观点是，我已经经历了几年的艰难岁月，几年加速衰老。
I felt startled by how quickly my face was changing.
我对自己的脸色变化之快感到震惊。
According to the internet, this was on me.
根据互联网上的说法，这是我的。
There was a punitive quality to the phrase "sun damage."
“阳光伤害”这个词带有惩罚性的成分。
But the promise was that once you were officially in menopause, you would feel better because things would slow down, and your moods would level out.
但承诺是，一旦你正式进入更年期，你会感觉更好，因为事情会放缓，你的情绪也会趋于平稳。
You would come into your own.
你会成为你自己的。
You would give a shit less.
你就更不在乎了。
In menopause, you would be sanguine.
在更年期，你会很乐观。
And yet, I wasn't eager to get there.
然而，我并不急于到达那里。
All along, I had so many fears about menopause.
一直以来，我对更年期都有很多恐惧。
A short list of those fears might start with my associations to the word-- dry, wiry, papery.
这些恐惧的简短清单可能会从我对这个词的联想开始——干燥、丝状、纸质。
I was scared of what would happen to desire, like how much of it I would feel.
我害怕欲望会发生什么，比如我会感受到多少。
The messaging on this was positive.
这方面的信息是积极的。
Women in menopause can still be sexy and still want sex.
更年期女性仍然可以性感并且仍然想要性。
But the celebrities of menopause were hot and liberated, and you hardly heard from the regular women, who maybe did want less.
但更年期的名人却热情奔放，你几乎听不到普通女性的声音，她们也许确实想要更少。
And that was the information I was looking for, how it felt to still be sexual, but to have the volume just turned down a bit, because that was what I suspected was most true.
这就是我正在寻找的信息，仍然是性的感觉，但音量只是稍微调低了一点，因为这是我怀疑最真实的。
I didn't know yet.
我还不知道。
I wasn't there.
我当时不在场。
But I thought I might be closer than I'd ever been.
但我想我可能比以往任何时候都更接近。
That period I'd had in August-- light, persistent-- I had a feeling it would be the last one.
我在八月经历的那段时期——轻松、持久——我有一种感觉，这将是最后一段。
My bet was that once the hand on the clock circled through the year, that would be it.
我敢打赌，一旦时钟上的指针绕了一圈，这一年就结束了。
I would officially be in menopause.
我将正式进入更年期。
September, October, November, December-- no period.
九月、十月、十一月、十二月——没有句号。
Still in the before time.
还是之前的时间。
It was sort of like not wanting to move into a new decade, like wanting to linger in the last months of being 29, 39, 49, or 9.
这有点像不想进入新的十年，就像不想在 29 岁、39 岁、49 岁或 9 岁的最后几个月里徘徊。
Even as a child, I'd had a sadness about aging, not wanting to cross into the double digits of 10.
当我还是个孩子的时候，我就对衰老感到悲伤，不想跨过两位数的10。
Getting a period at 10 was early, very early, in 1984.
1984 年，10 岁来月经是很早很早的事。
I'd felt horror at that advancement.
我对这种进步感到恐惧。
Now, I recognize that this was happening again.
现在，我认识到这种情况再次发生。
As the year ticked on-- now January, now February-- I found there were things I missed about menstruating.
随着时间的推移——现在是一月，现在是二月——我发现我怀念月经的一些事情。
There was a stillness in my body without it.
没有它，我的身体一片寂静。
I missed the cycle, which began each month with a low, flat mood, and then continued with the rising action of ovulation, that mid-month surge of energy, some of it erotic.
我错过了这个周期，每个月以低落、平淡的情绪开始，然后随着排卵的上升而继续，月中能量的激增，其中一些是色情的。
I missed the elevation in mood.
我怀念情绪的高涨。
March.
行进。
Earlier in my life, fearing pregnancy, I'd willed my period to come, but it wasn't like that now.
在我生命的早期，由于担心怀孕，我希望月经快点到来，但现在情况并非如此。
I wasn't pulling down my underwear and hoping.
我并没有脱下内衣满怀希望。
April, May.
四月、五月。
I was still in the before time, though I was increasingly accepting of the idea that I would soon be in menopause, testing it out in my head.
我仍然处于以前的状态，尽管我越来越接受我很快就会进入更年期的想法，并在脑海中进行测试。
Maybe this is partly because a whole new generation, Millennials, had discovered perimenopause and, once again, were shining up the scruffy territory we Gen Xers had claimed.
也许部分原因是全新一代，即千禧一代，发现了更年期，并再次照亮了我们 X 一代声称的肮脏领地。
Advertisers had gotten there, too.
广告商也已经到了那里。
And now it seemed like everyone was talking about menopause.
现在似乎每个人都在谈论更年期。
But most of them were not talking about it the right way.
但他们中的大多数人并没有以正确的方式谈论它。
And this is probably always true.
这可能永远都是正确的。
No one is ever talking about your own menopause, about exactly what it means to you.
没有人谈论过你自己的更年期，谈论它对你意味着什么。
June, month 10.
六月，十月。
By now, I was traveling without any supplies.
到现在为止，我已经没有任何补给了。
There wasn't going to be an emergency.
不会有紧急情况的。
There wasn't going to be another period stain.
不会再出现经期污渍了。
For years, I dealt with period stains, kneeling by the washing machine, spraying stain remover into a seam, or looking at the back of a skirt and wondering if it could be saved.
多年来，我一直在处理经期污渍，跪在洗衣机旁，在接缝处喷洒去污剂，或者看着裙子的背面，想知道它是否可以被拯救。
But there's one stain I've never been able to get out, a stain on the pink upholstery of one of our dining room chairs.
但有一个污渍我一直无法去除，那就是我们餐厅一把椅子的粉红色内饰上的污渍。
I sat there one early summer morning, for me, a singularly important morning.
一个初夏的早晨，我坐在那里，对我来说，这是一个异常重要的早晨。
A book I'd written had been published.
我写的一本书已经出版了。
I sat there in a nightgown, reading a glowing review.
我穿着睡衣坐在那里，读着一篇热情洋溢的评论。
I could feel that I was getting my period, but it didn't matter.
我能感觉到我来月经了，但这并不重要。
A dream of my life was coming true.
我一生的梦想即将实现。
I wanted to sit there in it.
我想坐在里面。
I didn't want to move.
我不想动。
Now that stain is there, and I've tried to lift it, but it won't come out.
现在污渍就在那里，我试图将其清除，但它无法去除。
And I don't mind that it's there.
我不介意它的存在。
It's a marker of a moment of bliss and of an earlier self, too, one whose body still did that.
这是幸福时刻的标志，也是早期的自己的标志，他的身体仍然这样做。
For so many years, I tried to manage my period, make it invisible, get rid of evidence.
多年来，我一直试图管理自己的经期，让其隐形，消除证据。
Now, this strange, possibly even repulsive, kind of preservation.
现在，这种奇怪的、甚至可能令人厌恶的保存方式。
But it's a stain that makes me remember the feeling of the world opening up before me.
但这是一个污点，让我想起世界在我面前敞开的感觉。
July came, and then it was August again.
七月来了，然后又是八月。
And it was official, one full year.
这是正式的，整整一年。
Is it too pollyanna to say that I actually did feel the world opening up?
说我确实感受到了世界的开放，这是否太盲目乐观了？
There had been something trying about wanting to stay where I was.
我一直想留在原地，这让我有些挣扎。
Once I crossed the threshold, there was no more resistance.
当我跨过门槛时，就不再有任何阻力。
And I was moving forward again.
我又向前迈进了。
When I went for my physical, my doctor said, what was the date of your last menstrual period?
当我去体检的时候，医生说，你最后一次月经是哪天？
August 2023, I said.
2023 年 8 月，我说。
Menopause, she said, with an exclamation point, like Menopause, the musical, like a curtain rising on a new stage.
更年期，她用感叹号说道，就像音乐剧《更年期》一样，就像新舞台上升起的帷幕。
Act Four, Since You've Been Gone.
第四幕，自从你离开后。
So the show today is about people at a pivot point, and one entire community in that situation is Altadena, California.
所以今天的节目是关于处于关键点的人们，而处于这种情况的整个社区就是加利福尼亚州的阿尔塔迪纳。
It's one of the towns around LA that's so devastated that, for most of the last week and a half, nobody was allowed in.
这是洛杉矶周围的城镇之一，遭到严重破坏，在过去一周半的大部分时间里，没有人被允许进入。
It's been surrounded by National Guard with barricades.
它已被国民警卫队用路障包围。
One of our producers, Miki Meek, talked to somebody who stayed at her house-- the fire stopped about a block away-- and, in the first days of the fires, came up with a mission for herself.
我们的一位制片人米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 与住在她家的一个人进行了交谈——大火在大约一个街区之外停止了——并且在火灾发生的第一天，她为自己制定了一个任务。
Vanessa Prata is a nursing student, 25 years old, lives with her parents in the home she grew up in.
Vanessa Prata 是一名护理专业学生，25 岁，与父母住在她长大的家里。
In those first few days after the fires, she realized people who'd evacuated didn't have a way to figure out if their homes were still standing or not.
在火灾发生后的最初几天，她意识到撤离的人们无法确定他们的房屋是否仍然存在。
And I remember, I was just sitting and thinking, like, well, one thing we've been doing is driving around.
我记得，我只是坐着思考，嗯，我们一直在做的一件事就是开车四处走动。
So maybe something I can do to help is drive around and take pictures of these homes.
所以也许我能帮忙的就是开车四处走走，给这些房子拍照。
So she went on to a community Facebook page for Altadena and posted this message.
于是她访问了 Altadena 的 Facebook 社区页面并发布了这条消息。
So I said, "Hello, everyone.
所以我说：“大家好。
Our home and family is all OK and safe.
我们的家和家人都平安无事。
That being said, we are behind the barricades.
话虽这么说，我们已经在路障后面了。
We are more than happy to drive around and take a picture for any person who would like to see their home or, God forbid, what is left of their home.
我们非常乐意开车四处走走，为任何想看看他们的家或者（上帝禁止）他们的家剩下的东西的人拍照。
Please let me know the address."
请告诉我地址。”
And then how fast did you start getting responses?
然后你多快开始收到回复？
So I started getting responses pretty quickly, probably, like, 5, 10 minutes after I posted it.
所以我很快就开始收到回复，大概是在发布后 5、10 分钟。
And then when they shared the address, they write something, and they say, oh, I brought my children home to that house.
然后当他们分享地址时，他们写了一些东西，然后他们说，哦，我把我的孩子们带回了那所房子。
I've had people say, I was born in that house, actually.
有人说，我实际上是在那所房子里出生的。
I had somebody say, my grandma was born in the house.
有人说，我的奶奶是在这所房子里出生的。
I was married in that house.
我在那所房子里结婚了。
54 people messaged her their addresses.
有 54 个人向她发送了他们的地址。
She wrote them down into a notebook, and then she and her dad got into their old Toyota minivan and started driving.
她把它们写在笔记本上，然后她和她的父亲钻进他们的旧丰田小型货车开始驾驶。
Vanessa in the passenger seat and her father driving.
凡妮莎坐在乘客座位上，她父亲开车。
OK, that one is on the left side, just a few.
好的，左边那个，就几个。
[DOG PANTING] Miki Meek That's their dog, Shelby, panting on her father's lap.
[狗气喘吁吁] Miki Meek 那是他们的狗，Shelby，在她父亲的腿上气喘吁吁。
Look, it's here somewhere.
看，它就在这里某个地方。
Where?
在哪里？
On the right side.
在右侧。
I think it's this.
我想就是这个了。
They mentioned this part.
他们提到了这一部分。
No, it's this one.
不，就是这个。
Miki Meek They got to 10 houses on their first day, but it took them almost four hours.
Miki Meek 第一天他们就到达了 10 所房子，但花了将近四个小时。
Altadena is a small place.
阿尔塔迪纳是一个小地方。
The whole thing is only about 9 square miles.
整个东西只有大约9平方英里。
But the streets were blocked with downed power lines and fallen trees.
但街道被倒下的电线和倒下的树木堵塞。
When they did get to an address, Vanessa would snap a photo and text it right away.
当他们到达地址时，瓦妮莎会拍一张照片并立即发短信。
The goal is to get the photos as quick as possible, without delay, to these people about their homes, because you can imagine the agony of somebody sitting in a shelter not knowing.
我们的目标是尽快、毫不拖延地向这些人提供有关他们家的照片，因为你可以想象有人坐在避难所而不知道情况的痛苦。
So how many people have you responded to so far?
那么到目前为止，您已经回复了多少人？
We've done about 41, and I think we have another seven or eight today.
我们已经做了大约 41 个，我想今天我们还有七八个。
And then of those 41 that you've been able to check on, how many are still standing?
那么，在您检查过的 41 个中，有多少仍然存在？
Less than half.
不到一半。
Miki Meek Less than half.
米基·米克 不到一半。
OK.
好的。
Yeah.
是的。
Less than half.
不到一半。
Miki Meek Can you just explain the process to me of--
Miki Meek 你能向我解释一下这个过程吗——
It's difficult.
这很难。
So when the house is there, I send the picture, and I don't say anything because there is no words needed.
因此，当房子在那里时，我发送照片，并且我什么也没说，因为不需要任何言语。
Usually, I get a "thank you." When the house isn't there, that's when it becomes a little bit more challenging.
通常，我会得到一句“谢谢”。当房子不存在时，事情就会变得更具挑战性。
Some people will send me, hey, can you send me the status of my home?
有人会发给我，嘿，你能发我家的状况吗？
I know it's probably gone, but it would be great to know what the situation looks like."
我知道它可能已经消失了，但很高兴知道情况是什么样的。”
And then there's the ones that are like, I have no idea.
然后还有一些，我不知道。
If you could send me a picture.
如果你能给我发一张照片的话。
And those are the hard ones because you know you're the one who's going to break the news.
这些都是困难的，因为你知道你是那个要公布这一消息的人。
And so I send a picture, and I say, I'm so sorry for your loss.
所以我发了一张照片，我说，我对你的损失感到非常抱歉。
It's usually all I say.
通常都是我说的。
And they usually respond with something.
他们通常会做出一些回应。
And then I'll follow up with, I wish I could do more to help.
然后我会跟进，我希望我能提供更多帮助。
Like, I wish there was something else I could do to help, you know?
就像，我希望还有什么我可以帮忙的，你知道吗？
There's not much you can say if somebody's lost their home.
如果有人失去了家园，你就无话可说。
And then I've also had the occasional, after I send the burnt house, they'll send me photos of the house prior.
然后我也偶尔会遇到这样的情况，在我寄出被烧毁的房子后，他们会先寄给我房子的照片。
I remember one of the houses that they sent that burned, oh, my god, it was really burnt.
我记得他们送来的一栋房子被烧毁了，天哪，真的被烧毁了。
And they sent me a picture.
他们给我发了一张照片。
The house was beautiful.
房子很漂亮。
I mean, it really was.
我的意思是，确实如此。
That one was hard.
那个很难。
What a beautiful home.
多么美丽的家啊。
I'm so sorry.
我很抱歉。
I mean, it really was.
我的意思是，确实如此。
It had a beautiful garden.
它有一个美丽的花园。
I'm looking at the picture now.
我现在正在看照片。
It's a dark brown roof.
这是一个深棕色的屋顶。
The house is off-white.
房子是灰白色的。
And the yard has bushes.
院子里有灌木丛。
And the bushes have small pink flowers.
灌木丛上开着粉红色的小花。
They had a bench on the outside of their house.
他们的房子外面有一张长凳。
And it's a red bench, which really goes with the house, honestly, because it really complemented the color of the house.
这是一条红色的长凳，老实说，它真的很适合房子，因为它确实与房子的颜色相得益彰。
It made it stick out, you know?
它让它脱颖而出，你知道吗？
A few days after the fire started, when it was still only 3% contained, she and her father were trying to get to an address at the end of a cul-de-sac.
火灾发生几天后，火势仅得到 3% 的控制，她和父亲试图前往死胡同尽头的一个地址。
That one house took them a couple days to get to.
他们花了几天时间才到达那一所房子。
They kept trying different roads in.
他们不断尝试不同的道路。
Every way had a tree, a huge tree, that fell in the middle of the road, blocking it.
每条路都有一棵树，一棵巨大的树，倒在路中间，挡住了路。
And I said, this is going to be the one that I'm not going to be able to send a picture for.
我说，这将是我无法为其发送照片的一个。
And I was just-- you know.
我只是——你知道。
And I saw the person.
我看到了那个人。
She had a family.
她有一个家庭。
And I was like, oh, my god.
我当时想，哦，天啊。
I'm telling my dad, we need to see what we can do.
我告诉我爸爸，我们需要看看我们能做些什么。
We need to try, you know?
我们需要尝试，你知道吗？
On their fourth attempt, they finally got closer to the address, but encountered another tree blocking the road.
在第四次尝试时，他们终于接近了地址，但却遇到了另一棵树挡住了路。
So Vanessa got out of the car and started walking.
于是瓦妮莎下了车，开始步行。
She sent me the video.
她把视频发给我了。
OK, OK.
好的，好的。
Miki Meek Around her were charred trees and electrical poles dangling from power lines.
米基·米克（Miki Meek）她周围是烧焦的树木和悬挂在电线上的电线杆。
The bottoms burn completely off.
底部完全烧掉。
I'm walking under the poles and going in between wires.
我在电线杆下行走，在电线之间穿行。
I couldn't figure out which house it was.
我无法确定那是哪所房子。
I mean, that area was demolished.
我的意思是，那个地区被拆除了。
It looks like somebody dropped a bomb in that area.
看起来有人在那个地区投下了炸弹。
And there's nothing.
而且什么也没有。
You know when you go to a house, and you see those house numbers on the curb?
你知道当你去一所房子时，你会看到路边的门牌号吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Vanessa Prata It was so bad that those house numbers were nonexistent.
凡妮莎·普拉塔 糟糕的是，那些门牌号码根本不存在。
The rubble was still smoldering, and all she could see were remnants of stone walls and chimney columns, a burned out station wagon.
瓦砾仍在闷烧，她所能看到的只有石墙和烟囱柱的残余物，还有一辆被烧毁的旅行车。
But it was just like, I'm going to make a general video and just hopefully I hit the house.
但就像是，我要制作一个普通视频，希望能引起轰动。
And I sent that one, and I told the person, please let me know if I am getting your house because I'm here now, and I can get another picture or get another video if needed.
我发送了那个，我告诉那个人，如果我得到你的房子，请告诉我，因为我现在在这里，如果需要，我可以得到另一张照片或得到另一个视频。
And they said, no, that's perfect.
他们说，不，那是完美的。
You got it.
你明白了。
One of the last messages I got from Vanessa was a rare bright moment in this terrible time.
我从瓦妮莎那里收到的最后一条消息是在这个可怕的时期难得的光明时刻。
Oh, my god!
哦，天啊！
[LAUGHS] So take a picture here and walk there, and take the other one.
[笑]所以在这里拍一张照片然后走到那里，然后拍另一张。
She and her dad found a house still standing.
她和她的父亲发现一栋房子还矗立着。
But go through that gate.
但要穿过那扇门。
Ira Glass Miki Meek is a producer on our show.
Ira Glass Miki Meek 是我们节目的制片人。
Well, our program was produced today by Emanuel Dzotsi.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Emanuel Dzotsi 制作的。
The people who put together today's show include Phia Bennin, Dana Chivvis, Michael Comite, Angela Gervasi, Cassie Howley, Chana Joffe-Walt, Henry Larson, Seth Lind, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Laura Starcheski, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Phia Bennin、Dana Chivvis、Michael Comite、Angela Gervasi、Cassie Howley、Chana Joffe-Walt、Henry Larson、Seth Lind、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Laura Starcheski、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Marisa Robertson-Textor 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Tasia Plieshyvtseva, Eric Ciaramella, Katerina Sergatskova, Michael O'Hanlon, John Litchfield, Bennett Epstein, Vanessa Martinez, Ron Lin, Jeanette Marantos, and Hannah Fry at the LA Times.
今天特别感谢《洛杉矶时报》的 Tasia Plieshyvtseva、Eric Ciaramella、Katerina Sergatskova、Michael O'Hanlon、John Litchfield、Bennett Epstein、Vanessa Martinez、Ron Lin、Jeanette Marantos 和 Hannah Fry。
The actors performing the English translations for the Ukrainians in Act 2 of our show today were Oleksander Fuhrman and Ross Peleh.
今天我们节目第二幕中为乌克兰人表演英语翻译的演员是 Oleksander Fuhrman 和 Ross Peleh。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
To become a This American Life partner, which gets you bonus content, ad-free listening, and hundreds of our favorite episodes of the show that are going to show up right in your podcast feed, go to thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.
要成为 This American Life 合作伙伴，您可以享受奖励内容、无广告收听以及将在您的播客源中显示的数百个我们最喜欢的节目剧集，请访问 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners。
Your subscription also helps keep our program going.
您的订阅也有助于我们的计划继续进行。
Thanks this week to Life Partner Cici Chen Mengfei and Colette Spriggins.
本周感谢生活伴侣 Cici 陈梦飞和 Colette Spriggins。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He's been taking a figure drawing class.
他正在上人物绘画课。
His drawings are pretty good, except for the hands.
他的画除了手以外都还不错。
He does the shoulder, upper arm, forearm all great.
他的肩膀、上臂、前臂都很棒。
And then gets to the end of the arm, and it's always--
然后到达手臂末端，而且总是——
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。