848: The Official Unofficial Record - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #848 | November 22, 2024 848: The Official Unofficial Record Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 848 集 | 2024 年 11 月 22 日 848：官方非官方记录 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass There was another presidential election that happened recently in another country, and it was an astonishing one.
序言： 序言 艾拉·格拉斯 最近另一个国家又发生了一次总统选举，这是一次令人震惊的选举。
And it has an aftermath that is ongoing.
它的后果仍在持续。
I don't know if you followed this very closely.
我不知道你是否密切关注这一点。
I did not.
我没有。
President Nicolás Maduro was up for reelection in Venezuela in July.
委内瑞拉总统尼古拉斯·马杜罗 (Nicolás Maduro) 七月竞选连任。
A lot was on the line in this election.
这次选举有很多风险。
Their economy is in ruins, partly because of Maduro's policies, but made worse by US sanctions.
他们的经济已是一片废墟，部分原因是马杜罗的政策，但美国的制裁使情况变得更糟。
Millions of people have left the country.
数百万人离开了这个国家。
One in five people have emigrated.
五分之一的人已经移民。
Also, during Maduro's time as president, there's been an increase in government surveillance and government repression, arbitrary detentions of government opponents or perceived opponents, security forces arresting people or killing people during protests.
此外，在马杜罗担任总统期间，政府监视和政府镇压、任意拘留政府反对者或被视为反对者、安全部队在抗议期间逮捕或杀害人员的情况有所增加。
This is according to the United Nations and human rights groups.
这是联合国和人权组织的说法。
But every six years in Venezuela, there's a presidential election.
但委内瑞拉每六年举行一次总统选举。
And the country does have a real political opposition.
这个国家确实有真正的政治反对派。
And the way they conduct their elections in Venezuela has all kinds of safeguards against election fraud.
委内瑞拉进行选举的方式有各种防范选举舞弊的保障措施。
It's a system put in place by the socialist president Hugo Chavez, because he didn't want there to be a shadow of a doubt.
这是社会党总统乌戈·查韦斯(Hugo Chavez)建立的制度，因为他不希望存在任何疑问。
He wanted to prove to the world and to his opponents that he really had gotten the most votes every time.
他想向世界和他的对手证明，他每次都确实获得了最多的选票。
Jimmy Carter, whose Carter Center observes elections all around the globe, once said that out of dozens of elections that they'd monitored, Venezuela's election system was, quote, "the best in the world."
卡特中心观察全球各地的选举的吉米·卡特曾表示，在他们监测的数十次选举中，委内瑞拉的选举制度是“世界上最好的”。
And this year, that got put to the test, when this brutal government went to the polls with the very real possibility that they might get voted out of office.
今年，这一点受到了考验，这个残暴的政府带着他们可能被选下台的可能性进行投票。
And the way it played out on the ground was this vast national drama in thousands of polling stations.
而它在实地上演的方式就是在数千个投票站上演的这场巨大的全国性戏剧。
Really, when you hear the details, it is remarkable what people did, hoping for a fair election.
真的，当你听到细节时，人们为希望公平的选举所做的事情是值得注意的。
Today on our show, we have that story, and also a couple of other stories of people trying to set the record straight against very great odds.
今天在我们的节目中，我们有这个故事，还有其他几个人们试图克服巨大困难打破记录的故事。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And let's just get to it.
让我们开始吧。
Act One of our show is called "Best Acta in a Dramatic Role." Nancy Updike has our story about Venezuela.
我们的节目第一幕被称为“最佳戏剧角色表演”。南希·厄普代克讲述了我们关于委内瑞拉的故事。
Here she is.
她在这里。
The night of the election, the results were announced a little after midnight on television.
选举当晚，午夜过后不久，电视上公布了结果。
One of the people watching was Ana Vanessa Herrero, a reporter for the Washington Post.
观看的人之一是《华盛顿邮报》记者安娜·凡妮莎·埃雷罗 (Ana Vanessa Herrero)。
She'd been out covering the election all day.
她整天都在外面报道选举。
On election night, she was alone in a hotel room, watching the results.
选举之夜，她独自一人在酒店房间里观看结果。
The electoral council proclaimed Maduro as the winner, with only the percentages of the voting, not the actual numbers of how many votes Maduro got.
选举委员会仅公布了马杜罗的得票率，并未公布马杜罗的实际得票数，宣布马杜罗获胜。
This is very irregular.
这是非常不规则的。
We have never seen this before.
我们以前从未见过这种情况。
It was weird.
很奇怪。
Ana Vanessa Herrero I was absolutely shocked.
安娜·凡妮莎·埃雷罗（Ana Vanessa Herrero）我绝对感到震惊。
As a reporter covering Venezuela, I prepare for the worst.
作为一名报道委内瑞拉的记者，我做好了最坏的打算。
The most crazy things that you imagine-- I prepare for that.
你想象的最疯狂的事情——我已经做好准备了。
But I never, ever could have prepared for them not giving the specific number for each candidate.
但我永远不可能为他们做好准备，不给出每个候选人的具体数字。
That was the first time.
那是第一次。
Did you say anything out loud, just alone in this hotel room?
你一个人在酒店房间里大声说了什么吗？
I said, I don't understand.
我说，我不明白。
Nancy Updike You said "I don't understand" out loud?
南希·厄普代克 你大声说“我不明白”吗？
In Spanish, it's OK, no entiendo.
在西班牙语中，没关系，没有entiendo。
No entiendo.
没有句意。
Because I didn't.
因为我没有。
I didn't understand.
我不明白。
Like, I-- I didn't.
就像，我——我没有。
I didn't understand.
我不明白。
The electoral council said they'd been hacked, but presented no credible evidence of the hack.
选举委员会表示他们遭到了黑客攻击，但没有提供可靠的黑客攻击证据。
All they would say is that President Nicolás Maduro had won with just over 51% of the vote.
他们只会说总统尼古拉斯·马杜罗以略高于 51% 的选票获胜。
No vote totals, just the percentage.
没有投票总数，只有百分比。
And the opposition, one hour after the electoral council's announcement, made their own live announcement on X.
选举委员会宣布选举结果一小时后，反对派在 X 上发布了自己的现场公告。
They said, actually, we won, and we can prove it.
他们说，实际上，我们赢了，我们可以证明这一点。
Turned out tens of thousands of volunteers in the opposition had managed to collect paper copies of the vote totals from most of the voting centers in the country, down to the level of each voting machine.
事实证明，反对派中的数万名志愿者已经成功地从该国大多数投票中心收集了投票总数的纸质副本，具体到每个投票机的水平。
The opposition began publishing those results on a website that anyone, anywhere, would be able to access.
反对派开始在一个任何地方的任何人都可以访问的网站上发布这些结果。
And overnight, the world became different.
一夜之间，世界变得不一样了。
Ana's been reporting in Venezuela for 15 years.
安娜在委内瑞拉进行报道已经 15 年了。
She's lived there all her life.
她一生都住在那里。
And this election was not like others she's covered.
这次选举与她报道的其他选举不同。
The very next day, early in the morning, I opened my eyes to a country out in the streets, asking the government to count the votes, asking the government to give the country the numbers and show the numbers that they had.
第二天一早，我睁开眼睛看到一个国家在街上，要求政府清点选票，要求政府给这个国家数字，并展示他们拥有的数字。
Here in Caracas, where I was, I interviewed so many people who started walking for hours.
在我所在的加拉加斯，我采访了很多开始步行几个小时的人。
I spoke to this person just there, standing, and I asked him where he was coming from.
我站在那里和这个人说话，我问他从哪里来。
And he was coming from a neighborhood near La Guaira, 40 minutes by car.
他来自拉瓜伊拉 (La Guaira) 附近的一个街区，开车 40 分钟即可到达。
And he started walking with his these people.
他开始和他的这些人一起行走。
And I asked him, where are you going?
我问他，你要去哪里？
And he said, I don't know.
他说，我不知道。
But I'm not leaving until they show the results.
但在他们展示结果之前我不会离开。
I clued into this election after it happened, and I could not stop reading about it.
这次选举发生后，我就开始了解它，并且无法停止阅读有关它的内容。
This was a plan to document the country's entire voting record.
这是一项记录该国整个投票记录的计划。
It was extraordinary.
这是非凡的。
The plan was called Seiscientos Kah, 600k, for the network of 600,000 people around the country the opposition estimated they would need to be in place on election day.
该计划被称为 Seiscientos Kah, 600k，针对全国 60 万人的网络，反对派估计他们需要在选举日就位。
I wanted to see inside this election, inside the opposition's plan.
我想了解这次选举、反对派计划的内部情况。
I wanted to know how the opposition did what it did and how they did it so fast.
我想知道反对派是如何做到这一点的，以及他们是如何做到如此之快的。
In an era of chronic, virulent misinformation and mistrust, they pulled off a giant convincing.
在一个长期存在恶意错误信息和不信任的时代，他们取得了巨大的说服力。
So I talked to an organizer of 600k.
所以我和一个 60 万的组织者谈过。
You won't hear his voice.
你不会听到他的声音。
Police have been stopping people on the street, looking in their phones to see if they've been to protests or have expressed doubt about the official election results.
警察一直在街上拦住人们，查看他们的手机，看看他们是否参加过抗议活动，或者对官方选举结果表示怀疑。
The organizer told me he went into hiding after the election.
组织者告诉我，他在选举后躲藏起来。
Now he's left the country.
现在他已经出国了。
He said Seiscientos Kah was created because we knew winning the election was not enough.
他说 Seiscientos Kah 的成立是因为我们知道赢得选举还不够。
We need the capacity to prove and demonstrate that we won the election.
我们需要有能力证明和证明我们赢得了选举。
Some of the plan was carried out in secret.
部分计划是秘密进行的。
Other parts were done in plain sight.
其他部分都是一目了然地完成的。
600k was set up to work essentially like a giant relay race.
600k 的设计本质上就像一场大型接力赛。
And instead of a baton, people would hand off a piece of paper.
人们递出的不是指挥棒，而是一张纸。
Every voting machine in Venezuela prints out a long, narrow sheet of paper at the end of the voting day.
委内瑞拉的每台投票机在投票日结束时都会打印出一张又长又窄的纸。
It looks like one of those epic receipts from CVS or Rite Aid, but on special paper.
它看起来像是来自 CVS 或 Rite Aid 的史诗般的收据之一，但采用的是特殊纸张。
And the receipt shows a tally of all the votes made on that specific machine for each candidate on election day.
收据显示了选举日在该特定机器上为每位候选人进行的所有投票的统计。
Those receipts, the voting tallies are called, in Spanish, actas, A-C-T-A, acta.
这些收据，即投票结果，在西班牙语中被称为“actas”、“A-C-T-A”、“acta”。
And the first runners in the relay race to get the acta in hand would be the witnesses.
接力赛中第一个拿到Acta的选手将是见证人。
In Venezuela, each candidate is allowed by law to have an accredited witness at each voting machine in the country.
在委内瑞拉，法律允许每位候选人在该国的每台投票机上都有一名经过认可的证人。
Not just in each voting center-- at each voting machine, over 30,000 machines.
不仅在每个投票中心，每个投票机上都有 30,000 多台机器。
Some voting centers have only one machine.
一些投票中心只有一台机器。
Some have more.
有些还有更多。
The witnesses can't see people's votes.
证人看不到人们的选票。
They just keep an eye on the process.
他们只是关注这个过程。
And then at the end of the voting day, each witness is legally entitled to get a printed copy of the acta, the voting tally, from their voting machine.
然后在投票日结束时，每个证人都有权从投票机上获得一份打印的投票记录副本。
The 600k plan was each opposition witness would get their acta and hand it off to someone else, the next person in the relay.
600k 计划是每个反对派证人都会拿到他们的 Acta 并将其交给其他人，即接力中的下一个人。
That person opens an app the opposition created and then scans a QR code that's on the acta.
该人打开反对派创建的应用程序，然后扫描 Acta 上的二维码。
The QR code contains all the results from that voting machine, and the app would send those results to the opposition's national command.
二维码包含该投票机的所有结果，该应用程序会将这些结果发送给反对派的国家指挥部。
Then another person in the relay would take the acta, the physical sheet, to a secret location.
然后，中继中的另一个人会将acta（物理表）带到一个秘密位置。
There were over 100 in the country.
全国有100多个。
Once the runner got to that place, they would hand the acta off to the person there, who had a whole setup-- a laptop, a scanner, Starlink internet access, and a little generator, like for camping, the organizer said.
组织者说，一旦跑步者到达那个地方，他们就会把行动交给那里的人，那里的人有一套完整的设备——一台笔记本电脑、一台扫描仪、星链互联网接入和一个小发电机，就像露营用的一样。
He said we needed electricity that can't be turned off and internet access that can't be blocked.
他说我们需要无法关闭的电力和无法被阻止的互联网接入。
The person with the scanner would run the acta through the scanner, and the image of the acta would be uploaded to the website the opposition had set up, where anyone could see it, along with the vote totals from that acta.
拥有扫描仪的人将通过扫描仪运行法案，法案的图像将上传到反对派建立的网站，任何人都可以看到它，以及该法案的投票总数。
Then, the acta itself, the long piece of paper, would go into a box.
然后，acta本身，即长纸，将被放入一个盒子中。
The box, when it was full, would be kept at another secret location.
盒子装满后，会被保存在另一个秘密地点。
There were layers of support for each part of this relay all around the country, organized by state, city, parish, and voting center.
此次接力活动的每个部分都得到了全国各地各州、市、教区和投票中心组织的层层支持。
The organizer said every process had a person responsible for it, with defined work and the tools to make it work.
组织者表示，每个流程都有专人负责，有明确的工作和使其发挥作用的工具。
The organizer said even inside the plan, no more than 10 people knew all the parts of it.
组织者表示，即使在该计划内部，了解其所有部分的人也不超过 10 人。
He said they mapped this out, 600k, based on lessons learned from counting votes in previous elections.
他说，他们根据之前选举中计票的经验教训，制定了 60 万的计划。
And this time around, one thing that made a big difference was that for the first time in a national election, the actas had this QR code, which meant if the opposition witnesses could just get the actas, the full election results could go up on an opposition website right away.
这一次，有一个很大的不同之处在于，在全国选举中，actas 第一次有了这个二维码，这意味着如果反对派证人能够获得 actas，完整的选举结果可以立即发布在反对派网站上。
The whole operation depended on tens of thousands of witnesses each getting their acta, no matter what, a process that seems to have required a combination of stamina, quick thinking, and strategic belligerence.
整个行动取决于数以万计的目击者，每个人都获得了他们的行动，无论如何，这个过程似乎需要耐力、敏捷思维和战略好战性的结合。
[LAUGHS] [SPEAKING SPANISH] Nancy Updike Maria was a witness.
[笑][说西班牙语]南希·厄普代克·玛丽亚是证人。
Maria is not her real name, and this is not her real voice.
玛丽亚不是她的真名，这也不是她的真实声音。
We recorded someone else copying what Maria said as closely as possible, so we wouldn't put her at risk of being identified.
我们尽可能准确地记录了其他人抄袭玛丽亚所说的话，这样我们就不会让她面临被识别的风险。
Maria and her husband, Pedro-- also not his real name-- both volunteered for 600k.
玛丽亚和她的丈夫佩德罗（也不是他的真名）都自愿捐款 60 万。
I'm so worried.
我很担心。
I wasn't worried before, but I'm so worried now that I'm not giving you my real name.
我以前并不担心，但现在我很担心，以至于我不告诉你我的真实姓名。
I'm not giving you Pedro's real name.
我不会告诉你佩德罗的真实姓名。
I was worried enough to not want my kids to participate in the election or in any of these movements.
我非常担心，不想让我的孩子参加选举或任何这些运动。
In the end, they did participate.
最终，他们还是参加了。
But now I'm very worried.
但现在我很担心。
And it's not my style to not give you my name, but here we are.
不告诉你我的名字不是我的风格，但我们就在这里。
Maria is in her 50s.
玛丽亚已经 50 多岁了。
She was a social worker, worked for the government for years.
她是一名社会工作者，为政府工作多年。
She said she grew up without money.
她说她是在没有钱的情况下长大的。
Maria was the first in her family to go to university.
玛丽亚是家里第一个上大学的人。
That's when she met Pedro, who was into politics.
就在那时，她遇到了投身政治的佩德罗。
She and Pedro went all in on getting Hugo Chavez elected the first time he ran, because he promised changes that Maria and Pedro believed in-- poor people getting access to university and health care and opportunities for a better life.
她和佩德罗在乌戈·查韦斯第一次竞选时就全力以赴让他当选，因为他承诺了玛丽亚和佩德罗所相信的改变——穷人有机会上大学、享受医疗保健以及过上更好生活的机会。
They saw those changes happen, then, over time, saw them unraveling.
他们看到这些变化发生，然后随着时间的推移，看到它们瓦解。
Maduro, Chavez's successor, Maria said she never liked and never voted for him.
查韦斯的继任者马杜罗玛丽亚表示，她从来不喜欢他，也从未投票给他。
In this election, she said she volunteered as a witness because she wants a different country for her kids, and she believes in the opposition.
在这次选举中，她说她自愿担任证人，因为她希望她的孩子有一个不同的国家，并且她相信反对派。
So Maria trained to be a witness with a bunch of mostly other women, she said-- some retired, like her, some lawyers-- meeting in someone's living room.
因此，玛丽亚接受了培训，成为一群主要是其他女性的证人，她说——有些像她一样退休了，有些是律师——在某人的客厅里会面。
As an overall plan, 600k had so many technological aspects, but the witnesses' training focused on the most analog, low fi part-- talking to other people inside a voting center.
作为一个总体计划，600k 有很多技术方面，但证人的培训集中在最模拟、低保真度的部分——与投票中心内的其他人交谈。
The training was about how to negotiate and how to really communicate and create harmony with people that were going to be there representing the regime and that were going to have a certain disposition, and just how to-- where to tighten and where to stretch, like how to be flexible in the negotiation, being in harmony with communication, but not being pulled into submission.
培训的内容是如何谈判，如何与那些代表政权、有一定性格的人进行真正的沟通和和谐，以及如何——哪里收紧，哪里伸展，比如如何在谈判中保持灵活性，与沟通和谐相处，但不被拉屈服。
How to negotiate and how are we going to get what we need to get?
如何谈判以及我们如何获得我们需要的东西？
Which is the actas.
这就是行为。
That was my sole role.
这是我唯一的角色。
I was a witness at the table trained in how to get what we needed to get, which is the actas.
我是餐桌旁的见证者，接受过如何获得我们需要的东西的培训，这就是行动。
So what happens if you don't get the acta?
那么如果你没有获得 Acta 会发生什么呢？
So all these scenarios would be played out in the first four hours of that training of like, OK, if you don't get the acta, this is what you put into place.
因此，所有这些场景都将在培训的前四个小时内上演，就像，好吧，如果你没有掌握实际情况，这就是你所采取的措施。
First of all, what are they telling you?
首先，他们告诉你什么？
Oh, the machine wasn't working, or I can't get you the acta because of X reason.
哦，机器坏了，或者由于 X 原因我无法给你拿到 Acta。
And at that moment, you would be like, OK, I can be friendly and have a communication.
在那一刻，你会说，好吧，我可以友好地进行交流。
But if I'm not getting the actas, I would tell the "Pedros," quote unquote, or someone like Pedro who's monitoring outside.
但如果我没有得到行动，我会告诉“佩德罗”，或者像佩德罗这样在外面监视的人。
I would say, hey, they don't want to bring us the actas.
我会说，嘿，他们不想给我们带来表演。
At that moment, they had their own strategy and training on how to mobilize, which would involve either bringing lawyers or journalists or very courageous people to be like, this is the law.
在那一刻，他们有自己的动员策略和培训，这将涉及聘请律师或记者或非常勇敢的人，让他们说，这就是法律。
We need to put pressure on getting the actas.
我们需要施加压力以获得行动。
Maria and other witnesses were being trained for, essentially, a mass act of civil obedience, following and insisting on the law.
玛丽亚和其他证人正在接受培训，本质上是为了遵守并坚持法律的大规模公民服从行为。
At the training, they got a pamphlet outlining election law and procedures that they would take with them on voting day and be prepared to wield as needed.
在培训中，他们收到了一本概述选举法和程序的小册子，他们将在投票日随身携带这些小册子，并准备在需要时使用。
For instance, in Venezuela, there are military personnel at every voting center on election day, and Maria's training got into that specifically.
例如，在委内瑞拉，选举日每个投票中心都有军事人员，玛丽亚的训练就专门针对这一点。
And then we would act out different scenarios where we had to face the military-- in this case, the army-- how to be, on the one hand, very [SPANISH], very charming and very friendly.
然后我们会表演不同的场景，我们必须面对军队——在这种情况下，军队——一方面如何变得非常[西班牙语]、非常迷人和非常友好。
And we're in this for the right reasons.
我们这样做是有正当理由的。
We're all citizens, and we're voting together.
我们都是公民，我们一起投票。
And be on the same page as citizens, shoulder to shoulder.
并与公民肩并肩地站在同一立场上。
But with the brochure in our hand, knowing the law, we're not here to negotiate the law.
但我们手里拿着小册子，了解法律，我们不是来谈判法律的。
We're here to be in this process together, but making sure that we are following the law.
我们来这里是为了共同参与这个过程，但要确保我们遵守法律。
So at first, you're very friendly, and you're moving toward this.
所以一开始，你非常友好，并且正在朝着这个方向前进。
But they would train us, if there's any deviation from what's stated in the brochure, then, at that moment, you would take out your brochure and say, hey, amigo, we're not following the law in this particular case.
但他们会培训我们，如果有任何偏离小册子中规定的内容，那么，在那一刻，你会拿出你的小册子说，嘿，朋友，在这个特殊情况下我们没有遵守法律。
Look here.
看这里。
There are videos of witnesses in other parts of the country on election day who were locked out of their voting centers, reading the law out loud, saying, let us in.
有视频显示，该国其他地区的证人在选举日被锁在投票中心外，大声宣读法律，说，让我们进去。
Some never got in.
有的从来没进去过。
But Maria got in without problems.
但玛丽亚毫无问题地进去了。
This is her account of her experiences on voting day.
这是她对投票日经历的描述。
We've corroborated as much as we can without exposing her.
我们已经在不曝光她的情况下尽可能多地证实了她的说法。
Polls opened at 6:00 AM.
投票于上午 6:00 开始。
She and Pedro got to the voting center around 4:15 AM.
她和佩德罗于凌晨 4 点 15 分左右到达投票中心。
Pedro would stay outside the voting center all day, rallying voters, keeping the peace, and being Maria's liaison to the rest of the 600k network.
佩德罗 (Pedro) 会整天待在投票中心外，召集选民、维持和平，并充当玛丽亚 (Maria) 与 600k 网络其他成员的联络人。
Inside, there were two tables with voting machines.
里面有两张桌子，上面有投票机。
Maria was the opposition witness at one table.
玛丽亚是一张桌子上的反对派证人。
And she had an ally, the woman who was the opposition witness at the other table.
她有一个盟友，就是另一桌的反对派证人。
From Maria's description, the two of them spent the day at their voting center playing-- tag-team chess?
根据玛丽亚的描述，她们两个在投票中心玩了一整天——双打国际象棋？
A co-obstacle course?
共同障碍课程？
Hurdle number one-- Maria's first argument with the other side was about how many witnesses would be allowed inside the voting center.
第一个障碍——玛丽亚与对方的第一个争论是投票中心内允许有多少证人。
Every accredited witness has two backup witnesses.
每个经认可的证人都有两名后备证人。
By law, they have to wait outside.
根据法律规定，他们必须在外面等候。
Only the active witnesses are allowed inside.
只有活跃的目击者才可以进入。
But at one point, the government side wanted their backup witnesses inside, but they weren't allowed.
但有一次，政府方面希望他们的后备证人进来，但他们不被允许。
So it was like a little bit of a bickering fight because the woman who was running things, she was a chavista.
所以这就像一场争吵，因为负责管理事务的女人是查韦斯主义者。
Chavista, meaning here a supporter of Maduro.
查维斯塔，这里的意思是马杜罗的支持者。
Maduro is the successor to Hugo Chavez, so Chavista.
马杜罗是乌戈·查韦斯的继任者，所以是查维斯塔。
A very older woman who was very arbitrary, very not following the law.
一个非常年长的女人，非常专断，非常不遵守法律。
And this woman, me and my co-witness from the other table did a strategy where--
这位女士、我和另一桌的同事制定了一个策略——
--she was good cop and I was bad cop.
——她是好警察，我是坏警察。
And the reason we did that was because my co-witness knew this woman from their neighborhood and from their life.
我们这样做的原因是因为我的同伴在他们的邻居和生活中认识这个女人。
So she couldn't be overtly mean or just overtly bad cop.
所以她不能太刻薄，也不能太坏警察。
So my co-witness would be talking to her and be very friendly.
所以我的同事会和她交谈并且非常友好。
And then I was kind of the complainer, and I was actively complaining, to the point that they were like, well, you're really complaining a lot.
然后我就成了一个抱怨者，我积极地抱怨，以至于他们说，好吧，你真的抱怨了很多。
And she was like, I'm not complaining.
她说，我没有抱怨。
I'm following the law.
我遵守法律。
That was the whole point-- to fully understand the law and to be able to bring in the law in the moments where I saw that there was deviation from that election law.
这就是重点——充分理解法律，并能够在我发现选举法存在偏差时引入法律。
Hurdle number two-- on this election day, Maria's voting center had only two tables, even though, in past elections, it's had more.
第二个障碍——在这个选举日，玛丽亚的投票中心只有两张桌子，尽管在过去的选举中，它有更多的桌子。
Not only that--
不仅如此——
The way they distribute amongst the two tables is by age.
他们在两个表中的分布方式是按年龄。
So this I had never seen before that, suddenly, on one table, they have everyone over 57.
所以这是我以前从未见过的，突然间，一张桌子上，全都是 57 岁以上的人。
So why that matters is because, suddenly, if you don't have people that are of mixed ages, suddenly, one table, if everyone is over 57, the voting time goes from one minute to five minutes or more.
所以为什么这很重要是因为，突然间，如果你没有不同年龄的人，突然间，一张桌子上，如果每个人都超过 57 岁，投票时间就会从一分钟变成五分钟或更长时间。
So it was just like the slowpoke table.
所以它就像慢速表一样。
Each vote requires a person's government-issued ID, their fingerprint, a choice on the voting machine, and a paper copy generated by the machine that the voter has to put in a box.
每次投票都需要一个人的政府颁发的身份证件、指纹、投票机上的选择以及投票机生成的纸质副本，选民必须将其放入盒子中。
So there are many points in the process where a person moving slowly can really gum things up.
因此，在这个过程中有很多地方，如果一个人行动缓慢的话，确实会把事情搞砸。
Maria suspected that putting all the old people in one line was a deliberate attempt to slow the process and discourage people from voting.
玛丽亚怀疑将所有老年人排成一队是故意拖延投票进程并阻止人们投票。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I could not actually intervene as a strategy in any way because my role was to be a witness.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 我实际上无法以任何方式作为策略进行干预，因为我的角色是证人。
But what I could do and what I was doing, I was complaining and complaining and complaining and saying, [SPANISH] hurry up, hurry up.
但我能做什么，我正在做什么，我一直在抱怨，抱怨，抱怨，说，[西班牙语]快点，快点。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
These people, they put all the older adults here.
这些人，他们把所有的老年人都放在这里了。
We need to hurry up.
我们需要快点。
But the strategy was to, then, tell all the Pedros, all the monitors, or tell my Pedro on the outside, this is what's happening.
但策略是告诉所有佩德罗、所有监视器，或者告诉我在外面的佩德罗，这就是正在发生的事情。
They put all the older people in one line.
他们把所有的老年人排成一排。
Please tell them to be patient.
请告诉他们要有耐心。
Looking into this, I think it's likely this was just random chance that more older voters were concentrated at one voting machine.
考虑到这一点，我认为这很可能只是更多老年选民集中在一台投票机上的随机机会。
Voters are pre-assigned to specific voting machines long before election day, but Maria still believes it was a deliberate attempt to slow down and discourage voting.
选民早在选举日之前就被预先分配到特定的投票机，但玛丽亚仍然认为这是故意放慢和阻止投票的尝试。
Everyone in Maria's account of this day, she just refers to by their title, like they're in a play.
玛丽亚对这一天的描述中的每个人，她只是用他们的标题来指代，就像他们在戏剧中一样。
First, the chavista.
首先是查维斯塔。
Next up, the soldier.
接下来是士兵。
There were actually three soldiers at the voting center.
投票中心实际上有三名士兵。
The soldiers are in voting centers, supposedly, to guard the voting process.
据推测，这些士兵在投票中心是为了保卫投票过程。
Maria focused on the one in charge, prodding him if she saw anything that went against what was outlined in the election law pamphlet she was holding.
玛丽亚把注意力集中在负责人身上，如果她看到任何与她手中的选举法小册子中概述的内容相抵触的事情，就会刺激他。
All day, she was on him-- any small deviation from the official process.
一整天，她都在关注他——任何与官方流程的微小偏差。
And, she said, in the middle of the day, she really got on his case because the line for the other voting machine stopped altogether.
而且，她说，在中午，她真的开始关注他的案子，因为另一台投票机的线路完全停止了。
And she said it stayed stopped for more than two hours.
她说车停了两个多小时。
And telling him, I need you to pay attention, and I need you to be on top of things.
并告诉他，我需要你集中注意力，我需要你掌控一切。
He directs himself toward me and says, senora, please stop talking to me that way.
他对着我说，女士，请别再这样跟我说话了。
You can't talk to me that way.
你不能那样跟我说话。
And then there was one point that it got so tense that he turned around and said--
然后有一点变得非常紧张，他转过身来说道——
--what you're going to cause with all your complaining is that we close down the voting center.
——你们所有的抱怨将会导致我们关闭投票中心。
And then I turned around and looked at him and said--
然后我转过身来看着他说——
[SPANISH] Interpreter --then close it.
[西班牙语] 解释器——然后关闭它。
For big issues, you need big remedies.
对于大问题，你需要大的补救措施。
You need to close it.
你需要关闭它。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
You will know that if you close it, it's on you, because you were not able to control the situation.
你会知道，如果你关闭它，责任就在你身上，因为你无法控制局势。
Maria, is it hard for you to be vocal like that, to stand up, or is that how you usually are?
玛丽亚，你这样发声、站起来是不是很困难，或者你平时就是这样吗？
So when you asked her, when you asked me, when you asked Maria, is this normal for you, she said--
所以当你问她，当你问我，当你问玛丽亚，这对你来说正常吗，她说——
--Pedro laughs because this is purely a part of who I am.
——佩德罗笑了，因为这纯粹是我的一部分。
I come from a very humble place and a place where if you don't have a voice and you don't speak up, you don't move ahead.
我来自一个非常卑微的地方，如果你没有声音，不发声，你就不会前进。
But I will say that my [SPANISH], the other witness from the other table, she was scared for me.
但我要说的是，我的[西班牙语]，另一桌的另一位证人，她为我感到害怕。
She was trying to tell me to calm down.
她试图告诉我要冷静。
She's like, oh, my god, they're going to close the centro because you're speaking up too much.
她说，哦，天啊，他们要关闭中心了，因为你说得太多了。
And I had to be very vocal and be like, [SPANISH], and they should close it.
我必须非常直言不讳地说，[西班牙语]，他们应该关闭它。
So speaking that way to a soldier is no small thing.
所以对一个士兵说这种话可不是小事。
But I felt like I had to, that it was my job.
但我觉得我必须这样做，这是我的工作。
It was also good that I had my Pedro outside, and that allowed me to feel a certain confidence that I'm sure not every witness felt.
我让佩德罗在外面也很好，这让我感受到了一定的自信，我确信不是每个目击者都有这种感觉。
There's a fervor in the way Maria describes her own vigilance that day that might sound familiar to Americans, like another country's Stop the Steal movement, which also mobilized voters around the country to go to their voting center on election day with a copy of local election laws and their suspicion and their willingness to speak up.
玛丽亚描述自己那天保持警惕的方式充满热情，这对美国人来说可能听起来很熟悉，就像另一个国家的“停止盗窃”运动一样，该运动也动员全国各地的选民在选举日带着一份当地选举法的副本前往投票中心，表达他们的怀疑和发声的意愿。
Venezuela's election was like that, and it wasn't at all.
委内瑞拉的选举就是这样，又完全不是。
The politics in Venezuela don't really map onto a, "Well, who are the Republicans, and who are the Democrats?" grid.
委内瑞拉的政治并没有真正映射到“谁是共和党，谁是民主党？”网格。
The political party in power has the word "socialist" in its name, but mainly, it's an authoritarian government.
执政党的名称中带有“社会主义”一词，但主要是一个独裁政府。
The opposition is a coalition that ranges in economic ideas from center-left to Margaret Thatcher, and it hasn't been in power for 25 years.
反对党是一个经济理念多样的联盟，从中左翼到玛格丽特·撒切尔，它已经执政 25 年了。
Venezuela's voting system is very different from ours.
委内瑞拉的投票制度与我们的有很大不同。
In the United States, each state has different rules and procedures for voting, different days and hours people are allowed to vote, different timelines for counting votes, different officials who certify results.
在美国，每个州都有不同的投票规则和程序，允许人们投票的日期和时间不同，计票的时间表不同，验证结果的官员也不同。
In Venezuela, it's one system across the whole country.
在委内瑞拉，这是一个覆盖全国的系统。
And one of the most important things they have is that for every vote, the voting machine produces a paper copy of the vote that the voter takes in hand and puts in a box at the voting center.
他们拥有的最重要的事情之一是，对于每一次投票，投票机都会生成一份纸质选票副本，选民将其放在手中并放入投票中心的盒子中。
And at the end of the day, about 30% of those boxes are randomly opened for a hand count of the paper ballots as a cross-check on the machine's count.
一天结束时，大约 30% 的盒子被随机打开，对纸质选票进行手工计数，作为机器计数的交叉检查。
Witnesses watch this hand count, often, not just the accredited witnesses.
目击者通常会观看手工清点，而不仅仅是经过认可的目击者。
By law, anyone is allowed to watch the hand count in their voting center, as long as there's enough room.
根据法律，只要有足够的空间，任何人都可以在投票中心观看计票。
And then at the end of the day, there's the acta, a summary of vote totals from the entire day.
然后在一天结束时，我们会看到acta，即全天投票总数的摘要。
Actas look the same all over the country.
全国各地的 Actas 看起来都一样。
They are a recognizable and agreed-upon measure of voting results in Venezuela, each one with a unique identifier tying it to a specific voting center and voting machine.
它们是委内瑞拉可识别和商定的投票结果衡量标准，每一个都有一个唯一的标识符，将其与特定的投票中心和投票机联系起来。
So Maria was at the voting center to keep an eye on the process, to complain, to make a fuss if she thought something was unfair, or if the process was stalling out.
因此，玛丽亚在投票中心关注投票过程，如果她认为某些事情不公平，或者过程陷入停滞，她就会抱怨、大惊小怪。
But at the end of the voting day, if the law was followed, she would walk out, not just with a bunch of stories about what looked fishy, but with the actual results in her hand, the acta.
但在投票日结束时，如果法律得到遵守，她就会退出，不仅仅是带着一堆看起来可疑的故事，而是带着她手中的实际结果，即 Acta。
The acta isn't about suspicions and observations and complaints.
该行为与怀疑、观察和抱怨无关。
It doesn't raise questions about who won.
它不会引发关于谁赢了的问题。
It answers them.
它回答了他们。
The last hurdle of the day-- and it's a big one-- after the break.
休息后，今天的最后一个障碍——而且是一个很大的障碍。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
We are in the middle of Nancy Updike's story about the Venezuelan election and the opposition's very elaborate attempt to get a real vote count.
我们正在了解南希·厄普代克关于委内瑞拉选举的故事，以及反对派为获得真正的计票而精心策划的尝试。
Nancy picks up where she left off.
南希从上次中断的地方继续。
The last hurdle of the day came after voting closed.
当天的最后一个障碍是在投票结束后出现的。
Maria calls the character in this part the bureaucrat, a woman from the electoral council who stepped in to deal with the voting machines.
玛丽亚称这一部分的角色为官僚，一位来自选举委员会的女性，介入处理投票机。
The machines finalize the numbers and transmit them to the electoral council.
机器最终确定数字并将其传送给选举委员会。
The data are encrypted and sent through a dedicated wireless phone line that is just for the voting data and is only accessible through the voting machines.
数据经过加密并通过专用无线电话线发送，该电话线仅用于投票数据，并且只能通过投票机访问。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And only this bureaucrat person can handle the machine.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 只有这个官僚才能操作机器。
So the one assigned to our voting booth was very-- she was very professional, very technical.
所以分配给我们投票站的人非常——她非常专业，非常有技术。
She didn't have opinions-- doing her job.
她没有意见——做她的工作。
So from 6:00 to 7:00 PM, basically, the bureaucrat is in charge of the machine, right?
所以从下午 6:00 到 7:00，基本上，官僚负责管理机器，对吧？
So what that means is that everyone's tired.
所以这意味着每个人都累了。
No one is fighting anymore.
没有人再战斗了。
The tension is like-- it's like a release.
紧张就像——就像一种释放。
There's nothing to do.
无事可做。
There's nothing to fight about.
没什么可争的。
It's just the bureaucrat and the machine.
这只是官僚和机器。
So that takes, let's say, an hour or two.
比如说，这需要一两个小时。
And then the aberration begins.
然后畸变就开始了。
Suddenly, the bureaucrat is sitting there, and it's like, oh, we can't transmit the data.
突然，那位官员坐在那里，就像，哦，我们无法传输数据。
It's the signal.
这是信号。
The machine can't process and transmit the data.
机器无法处理和传输数据。
It's the signal.
这是信号。
It's the signal.
这是信号。
And then it's clear that the data isn't transmitting in many, many voting centers.
很明显，许多投票中心都没有传输数据。
And there are people outside of her voting center and others pressuring the members of the voting center.
还有她的投票中心之外的人和其他人向投票中心的成员施压。
The electoral council later blamed the interrupted transmission of voting results on a hack, the one they never provided credible evidence for.
选举委员会后来将投票结果传输中断归咎于黑客攻击，但他们从未提供可靠的证据。
Maria, in her voting center, was watching the transmission problems in real-time, standing next to the bureaucrat at the voting machine.
玛丽亚在她的投票中心，站在投票机旁的官员旁边，正在实时观察传输问题。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I'm standing next to her, and she's trying, and she's trying, and she's trying.
[说西班牙语] 口译员我站在她旁边，她正在努力，她正在努力，她正在努力。
And she can't get it to work.
她无法让它发挥作用。
And then the soldier that I was fighting with, he starts to get tensed up.
然后和我一起战斗的那个士兵开始变得紧张。
And then the chavista other person who's my [SPANISH], neighbor, she starts to get fired up after being tired.
然后另一个查维斯塔人，我的[西班牙语]邻居，她在疲倦后开始变得兴奋。
And then the people outside start to demand a hand count, and then the tension starts to rise all over again, with this bureaucrat person basically saying, I can't transmit the result.
然后外面的人开始要求手工清点，然后紧张气氛又开始加剧，这个官僚基本上说，我不能传达结果。
I don't know what's happening, but I can't do it.
我不知道发生了什么，但我做不到。
Maria said she couldn't get her copy of the acta until the machine transmitted the results.
玛丽亚说，在机器传输结果之前，她无法获得这份报告的副本。
So this problem with the machine, this breakdown in transmission, led to a sort of slapstick routine inside her voting center.
因此，机器的这个问题，传输的故障，导致了她的投票中心内出现了一种闹剧。
The moment that the data is not transmitting, we all start to help the bureaucrat to find signals.
当数据没有传输的那一刻，我们就开始帮助官僚寻找信号。
So we moved the table from one side.
所以我们把桌子从一侧移开。
We moved the table to the other side.
我们把桌子移到了另一边。
We try to not touch the machine, but help her move the table to find the signal there, where we're all trying to help the bureaucrat find some kind of signal, so that the machine can transmit the data.
我们尽量不碰机器，而是帮她移动桌子寻找那里的信号，我们都在努力帮助官僚找到某种信号，以便机器可以传输数据。
She was trying to get signal like one would on their cell phone when there's no cell phone coverage.
她试图像在没有手机覆盖的情况下用手机一样接收信号。
Helping her find a solution to this issue.
帮助她找到解决这个问题的方法。
Only living it can you fully understand it because it's just too loco.
只有亲身经历才能完全理解它，因为它太疯狂了。
It's too crazy.
太疯狂了。
Versions of this happened at other voting centers, including people moving the machines outside to see if they could get a signal there.
这种情况也发生在其他投票中心，包括人们将机器移到外面，看看是否能在那里收到信号。
Maria could only spend so much time on this table moving craziness, though.
不过，玛丽亚只能花这么多时间在这张桌子上疯狂移动。
I went into robot mode because my role was to get the acta, the voting tally, the acta, the voting tally.
我进入机器人模式是因为我的角色是获取 Acta、投票结果、Acta、投票结果。
So all I could think of was, acta, acta, acta.
所以我能想到的就是，acta，acta，acta。
I'm not leaving this place without an acta.
我不会不采取行动就离开这个地方。
And then even at one point, I went up to the bureaucrat, and I said, hey.
然后甚至有一次，我走到那位官员面前，说，嘿。
She's like-- I'm playing dumb a little.
她就像——我有点装傻了。
Sometimes I get a little bit lost, you know?
有时我会有点迷失，你知道吗？
And here, I took out-- here's the pamphlet and the brochure we were given with the law.
在这里，我拿出了——这是随法律一起发给我们的小册子和小册子。
Here are the instructions.
这是说明。
And then here, it says that you're going to give me the voting tally, correct?
然后这里说你要给我计票结果，对吗？
You're going to give me the acta?
你要给我acta吗？
And she said, of course.
她说，当然。
[SPANISH] Of course I am.
[西班牙语] 我当然是。
And then I could relax.
然后我就可以放松了。
But there were other people where they closed the voting center.
但还有其他人关闭了投票中心。
And even my Pedro went to another voting center, where they completely closed it down at this point and refused to give people actas, and people had to go mobilize and protest outside of the voting centers.
甚至我的佩德罗也去了另一个投票中心，他们此时完全关闭了投票中心，并且拒绝给人们提供行动，人们不得不在投票中心外动员和抗议。
Luckily, that was not the case in my voting center because I was like a robotic soldier next to this bureaucrat.
幸运的是，我的投票中心的情况并非如此，因为我就像这位官僚旁边的机器人士兵。
Finally, the data were transmitted and the results at Maria's voting center were official.
最后，数据被传输，玛丽亚投票中心的结果正式出炉。
It was a blowout.
这是一场井喷。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And we all looked at each other.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我们都面面相觑。
The soldier--
那个士兵——
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter --the bureaucrat, the chavistas-- all of us just looked at each other knowingly that--
[说西班牙语] 翻译——官僚，查韦斯主义者——我们所有人只是互相看着对方，心知肚明——
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter --the opposition had won.
[西班牙语]翻译——反对派赢了。
I finally get my acta.
我终于得到了我的acta。
Really, it's a long paper, like a chorizo, like a sausage.
真的，这是一张很长的纸，就像香肠，就像香肠。
You see all the numbers and all the data.
您会看到所有数字和所有数据。
But to be honest, I didn't even really have time to look at it closely because I handed it over like a relay race.
但说实话，我什至没有时间仔细看它，因为我像接力赛一样把它交给了。
It really felt like being part of a movie.
真的感觉就像是电影的一部分。
And so I give it to my [SPANISH], and my [SPANISH] rushes out of the door with it.
所以我把它给了我的[西班牙语]，我的[西班牙语]带着它冲出了门。
I didn't even take a moment to process so much, because I was just so rushed to get the acta out into the public view.
我什至没有花一点时间来处理这么多，因为我太急于将这一行为公诸于众。
We didn't really know why we had to hand it over so quickly at the moment.
我们真的不知道为什么现在必须这么快交出它。
We just did.
我们刚刚做到了。
Maria's euphoria was short-lived.
玛丽亚的欣快感是短暂的。
The electoral council, known as the CNE, made their announcement just after midnight, saying Maduro had won.
选举委员会（CNE）在午夜过后宣布，称马杜罗获胜。
And then as I was leaving, my sister called, the one who I told you worries about me.
然后当我离开时，我姐姐打来电话，我告诉你的那个人很担心我。
And she said, look, I'm watching TV, and the CNE says that the results are different, that they're in.
她说，看，我正在看电视，CNE 说结果不同，他们已经进来了。
I immediately hung up on her.
我立即挂断了她的电话。
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Interpreter I immediately hung up on her.
翻译我立即挂断了她的电话。
I had done my job, and I was on such a high.
我已经完成了我的工作，我的心情如此之高。
And it was such a victorious moment for me that I just didn't want to feel like hearing that.
这对我来说是一个胜利的时刻，我只是不想听到这个。
I didn't want to feel defeated at that moment.
我不想在那一刻感到失败。
On election night, Venezuelans uploaded videos recorded outside different voting centers all around the country.
在选举之夜，委内瑞拉人上传了在全国各地不同投票中心外录制的视频。
A similar scene repeated over and over-- one person in front of a crowd at night, reading the voting center's results out loud, sometimes holding the acta and using a cell phone light to read the tiny print straight from that, announcing totals for President Maduro and for the opposition candidate, Edmundo González Urrutia.
类似的场景一遍又一遍地重复着——晚上，一个人在人群面前大声朗读投票中心的结果，有时拿着Acta，用手机灯直接阅读上面的小字，宣布马杜罗总统和反对派候选人埃德蒙多·冈萨雷斯·乌鲁蒂亚的得票总数。
This is a video from La Guaira.
这是来自拉瓜伊拉的视频。
There's a woman reading results from a piece of paper, shouting to the crowd, "Table two-- Edmundo, 303.
有一位女士正在读一张纸上的结果，向人群喊道：“表二——埃德蒙多，303。
Maduro, 194."
马杜罗，194。”
[CHEERING] Nancy Updike Table four-- Edmundo, 342.
[欢呼]南希·厄普代克表四——埃德蒙多，342。
Maduro, 162.
马杜罗，162。
[CHEERING] Nancy Updike Hundreds of these videos.
[欢呼] Nancy Updike 有数百个这样的视频。
The opposition website had actas from 83% of the voting machines in the country.
反对派网站拥有该国 83% 投票机的信息。
The numbers showed the opposition had won 7.3 million votes.
数据显示反对派赢得了 730 万张选票。
Maduro got 3.3 million.
马杜罗得到了330万。
According to these numbers, it was 2 to 1 in favor of the opposition.
根据这些数字，反对派以 2 比 1 获胜。
Even if Maduro got every vote in the remaining 17% of the actas, he still couldn't win.
即使马杜罗获得了剩余17%的选票，他仍然无法获胜。
And since the actas show data down to the voting machine, they also showed that Maduro lost in lots of places he had won in the past.
由于行为将数据显示到投票机，它们还显示马杜罗在他过去赢得的许多地方都输了。
There was a frenzy of people after the election, combing through the website with the actas and the vote totals.
选举结束后，人们疯狂地浏览网站，查看投票结果和得票总数。
Were the numbers real?
这些数字是真实的吗？
Were the actas real?
这些行为是真实的吗？
The Washington Post looked into the website's data and concluded, yes, the actas were genuine and accurate.
《华盛顿邮报》调查了该网站的数据并得出结论，是的，这些行为是真实且准确的。
The Associated Press also concluded the actas' information was accurate.
美联社还得出结论，行为人的信息是准确的。
Another website collected the videos people had uploaded reading the results on election night, geolocated them, and matched them to the actas from the voting center where they were from.
另一个网站收集了人们在选举之夜上传的阅读结果的视频，对它们进行地理定位，并将它们与他们所在投票中心的行为进行匹配。
Academics in Venezuela, Brazil, and the United States analyzed the website's actas and totals and concluded, yes, they're real.
委内瑞拉、巴西和美国的学者分析了该网站的数据和总数，得出的结论是，是的，它们是真实的。
As for the electoral council in Venezuela, the CNE, the website has been down almost continuously since the election.
至于委内瑞拉选举委员会（CNE），其网站自选举以来几乎一直处于瘫痪状态。
We reached someone there by phone.
我们通过电话联系到了那里的某人。
When we asked for an email address to send questions, the person who answered the phone said, we don't do email.
当我们要求提供电子邮件地址来发送问题时，接电话的人说，我们不发送电子邮件。
When we asked for a spokesperson we could contact to ask our questions, they said there isn't one at the moment.
当我们询问可以联系一位发言人询问我们的问题时，他们说目前没有。
Maduro has called the opposition effort to create their own vote tally, quote, "a coup." The electoral council still hasn't published voting machine totals to back up their claim that Maduro won.
马杜罗称反对派自行统计选票的努力是“一场政变”。选举委员会仍未公布投票机总数来支持他们关于马杜罗获胜的说法。
It's as if what 600k did was so decisive, the government's not even bothering to argue the case and propose an alternate set of facts.
就好像 600k 所做的事情是如此具有决定性，政府甚至懒得争论这个案子并提出另一组事实。
Instead, in the absence of evidence, they're relying on force.
相反，在缺乏证据的情况下，他们依靠武力。
After the election, there were mass detentions-- over 1,500 people, according to the Venezuelan human rights group, Foro Penal.
据委内瑞拉人权组织 Foro Penal 称，选举后发生了大规模拘留事件，拘留人数超过 1,500 人。
The UN put out a report last month about the post-election detentions and violence.
联合国上个月发布了一份关于选举后拘留和暴力的报告。
The report said people charged with terrorism and incitement to hatred after the election included, quote, "opposition political leaders, individuals who simply participated in the protests, persons who sympathized with the opposition or criticized the government, journalists who covered the protests, lawyers for those detained, human rights defenders, and members of the academic community," end quote.
报告称，选举后被指控犯有恐怖主义和煽动仇恨罪的人包括“反对派政治领导人、仅仅参与抗议活动的个人、同情反对派或批评政府的人、报道抗议活动的记者、被拘留者的律师、人权捍卫者和学术界成员”。
A member of the UN fact-finding mission said in a statement that out of the people detained after the election, quote, "many were subjected to torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment, as well as sexual violence, which was perpetrated against women and girls, but also against men."
联合国实况调查团的一名成员在一份声明中表示，在选举后被拘留的人中，“许多人遭受酷刑和其他残忍、不人道或有辱人格的待遇，以及性暴力，这些暴力行为不仅针对妇女和女孩，也针对男性。”
The opposition candidate for president, Edmundo González Urrutia, fled Venezuela and got asylum in Spain.
反对派总统候选人埃德蒙多·冈萨雷斯·乌鲁蒂亚逃离委内瑞拉并在西班牙获得庇护。
The leader of the opposition, Maria Corina Machado, is in hiding.
反对派领导人玛丽亚·科里娜·马查多 (Maria Corina Machado) 正在躲藏。
I sent an email asking about the UN report to multiple email addresses for the Permanent Mission of Venezuela to the UN and got no response.
我向委内瑞拉常驻联合国代表团的多个电子邮件地址发送了一封电子邮件，询问联合国的报告，但没有得到回复。
An email we sent to the Ministry for Communication and Information came back with a reply saying our email had been blocked.
我们发送给通信和信息部的一封电子邮件收到回复说我们的电子邮件已被屏蔽。
Nicolás Maduro is still the president.
尼古拉斯·马杜罗仍然是总统。
And in January, if nothing changes, he will take office for a third six-year term.
如果没有任何变化，他将在一月份上任，开始第三个六年任期。
To state the obvious, elections aren't democracy.
显而易见，选举不是民主。
They're not enough.
他们还不够。
Venezuela's great voting system was created under Hugo Chavez after he was elected.
委内瑞拉伟大的投票制度是乌戈·查韦斯当选后在他领导下创建的。
And over the course of successive elections, Chavez ended presidential term limits.
在连续的选举过程中，查韦斯结束了总统任期限制。
He consolidated control over the Supreme Court and the military.
他巩固了对最高法院和军队的控制。
The legislature is no longer a check on presidential power.
立法机关不再是对总统权力的制衡。
And now Maduro has all of that at his disposal, as he tries to put the results of this election behind him.
现在，马杜罗已经掌握了所有这些，因为他试图将这次选举的结果抛在脑后。
I asked people I talked to for this story, what is the value of this huge effort by the opposition to document the outcome of the election if it doesn't lead to political change?
我问我采访过这个故事的人，如果反对派记录选举结果的巨大努力不能带来政治变革，那么它的价值是什么？
What does it mean to try and create the conditions for certainty about an electoral result, and have that not carry the day?
试图为选举结果的确定性创造条件却未能取得成功意味着什么？
For some Venezuelans I talked to, it was simple.
对于我交谈过的一些委内瑞拉人来说，这很简单。
This effort showed that a majority of voters in this country want a change in government, and it showed the government pretending that's not true.
这一努力表明，这个国家的大多数选民希望改变政府，但政府却假装这不是真的。
What the opposition effort led to is a record, and from that record, a broad consensus about the election, even among Venezuelans who may have very different ideas about the country's problems and solutions, its history, and its future.
反对派的努力带来了创纪录的结果，并从这一记录中获得了关于选举的广泛共识，即使是在委内瑞拉人中，他们对该国的问题和解决方案、历史和未来可能有截然不同的看法。
There is value in knowing whether the person who holds the most power in your country is there because a majority voted for him, or in spite of the fact that a majority voted against him.
了解在你的国家拥有最大权力的人是因为大多数人投票支持他，还是尽管大多数人投票反对他而在那里，这是有价值的。
Nancy Updike.
南希·厄普代克。
Her story was produced by Anayansi Diaz Cortes.
她的故事由阿纳扬西·迪亚兹·科尔特斯 (Anayansi Diaz Cortes) 制作。
Anayansi was also the interpreter for Maria's interview.
阿纳扬西也是玛丽亚采访的翻译。
The story was edited by Laura Starecheski.
该故事由劳拉·斯塔莱切斯基 (Laura Starecheski) 编辑。
Just this week, for the first time, President Biden started referring to the candidate whose 600k showed got the most votes, opposition leader Edmundo González Urrutia, as the president-elect of Venezuela.
就在本周，拜登总统首次开始提及 60 万票获得最多票数的候选人、反对派领袖埃德蒙多·冈萨雷斯·乌鲁蒂亚 (Edmundo González Urrutia)，作为委内瑞拉候任总统。
Coming up, an entire class of animals calls for a recount.
接下来，整个类别的动物都需要重新计票。
They want an end to the lies about them.
他们希望结束关于他们的谎言。
I mean, OK, I guess it's human beings who want the recount, not the animals themselves.
我的意思是，好吧，我想是人类想要重新计票，而不是动物本身。
But you get the idea.
但你明白了。
Anyway, that's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
不管怎样，一分钟后芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, the official, unofficial record, stories about people trying to set the record straight against great odds, real and perceived.
今天的节目，官方的、非官方的记录，讲述了人们试图在巨大的困难中打破纪录的故事，无论是真实的还是感知的。
We have arrived at act two of our show-- Act Two, "Meanwhile, in America."
我们已经到了演出的第二幕——第二幕“与此同时，在美国”。
I thought this was an interesting sign of the times.
我认为这是一个有趣的时代标志。
It started out in a very familiar scene and then went into a direction I did not expect.
它从一个非常熟悉的场景开始，然后进入了我意想不到的方向。
It happened on election night.
事情发生在选举之夜。
My co-worker Zoe Chace and I were in Michigan in separate locations.
我和我的同事 Zoe Chace 在密歇根州的不同地点。
It was late, but nobody knew yet who was going to win.
虽然已经很晚了，但还没有人知道谁会获胜。
And Zoe was at what would later become the Trump victory party in Michigan.
佐伊参加了后来在密歇根州举行的特朗普获胜派对。
And she ambled up to some people she talked to in the past, Republican activists, including Todd Gillman.
她缓步走向一些她过去交谈过的人，包括托德·吉尔曼（Todd Gillman）在内的共和党活动人士。
Yeah, we were just talking about when the cheat's going to happen in Detroit.
是的，我们只是在讨论作弊行为何时会在底特律发生。
Are you serious?
你是认真的？
Todd Gillman Cheat's going to happen at 2:00 in the morning.
Todd Gillman Cheat 将于凌晨 2:00 进行。
So you think-- Todd Gillman Already a report of a truck with California plates showing up in the TCF Center.
所以你认为 - Todd Gillman 已经有一份关于一辆带有加州牌照的卡车出现在 TCF 中心的报告。
I don't know if you could catch that.
我不知道你是否能抓住这一点。
He said the cheat is going to happen at 2:00 in the morning, and that a truck with California plates showed up at the convention center, where they were at that very moment, counting absentee ballots for Detroit.
他说作弊行为将在凌晨 2:00 发生，一辆挂着加州牌照的卡车出现在会议中心，他们当时就在那里，正在清点底特律的缺席选票。
Online was a video of three supposed culprits carrying suspicious packages into some building at 11:00 PM.
网上有一段视频，显示三名疑犯于晚上 11:00 携带可疑包裹进入某栋大楼。
It's posted on Twitter.
它发布在 Twitter 上。
Zoe Chace I got to tell IRA, because he's down there.
佐伊·切斯 我必须告诉爱尔兰共和军，因为他就在那里。
He's watching for the steal to come in.
他正在观察偷窃行为。
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
Tell him that the word has it a truck with California plates showed up.
告诉他有消息说一辆挂着加州牌照的卡车出现了。
But why is a truck showing up at this time of night?
但为什么卡车会在深夜这个时候出现呢？
All the ballots should be there already.
所有选票应该已经在那里了。
All right, let's do a quick camera cut to the convention center.
好吧，让我们快速切换镜头到会议中心。
Nice.
好的。
Wow.
哇。
Good music, too.
音乐也不错。
OK, so I'm there in the convention center that night with hundreds of other very tired-looking people, not exactly watching the steal come in, but with someone who was on high alert for any possible vote stealing shenanigans, one of the lead Republican poll challengers at the convention center, a guy named Jeff Schaeper.
好吧，那天晚上我和其他数百名看上去非常疲惫的人一起在会议中心，并不是在观看窃取选票的进来，而是和一个对任何可能的窃取选票恶作剧保持高度警惕的人在一起，他是会议中心共和党民意调查的主要挑战者之一，一个名叫杰夫·谢珀的人。
So Zoe told me what she just heard about mysterious ballots arriving at the convention center at 11:00 PM on a truck with California plates.
于是佐伊告诉我她刚刚听说神秘选票于晚上 11:00 用一辆挂着加州车牌的卡车抵达会议中心。
And this next moment, the one where I told Jeff about it, is the moment that I thought was so interesting.
下一刻，我告诉杰夫这件事的那一刻，是我认为非常有趣的时刻。
And to get its significance, I should tell you first that Jeff Schaeper is a serious election skeptic.
为了了解其重要性，我首先应该告诉你，杰夫·谢珀是一位严重的选举怀疑论者。
Back in 2020, he was one of hundreds of people who rushed to this very spot, the Detroit convention center, certain that Democrats were here, stealing the election for Joe Biden.
早在 2020 年，他就是数百人涌向底特律会议中心这一地点的人之一，他们确信民主党人就在这里，为乔·拜登窃取了选举权。
Maybe you remember the crowds in Detroit chanting, "Stop the count."
也许你还记得底特律的人群高呼“停止计数”。
OK, so that's where Jeff was back then.
好吧，这就是杰夫当时所在的地方。
A Republican-led investigation in the state Senate later found no fraud, no harm to the vote count in Detroit.
州参议院由共和党主导的调查后来发现不存在欺诈行为，也没有对底特律的计票结果造成损害。
But Jeff is still convinced to this day the Democrats were in there, throwing illegal ballots into the system.
但杰夫至今仍坚信民主党参与其中，将非法选票投入系统。
Now, you got to understand that in 2020, a lot of ballots were put out into the public.
现在，你必须明白，2020 年，大量选票已向公众公开。
So they had a store of ballots-- progressives-- that they could use.
所以他们有一批可以使用的选票——进步派选票。
To use for fraud, he means.
他的意思是，用于欺诈。
Jeff Schaeper That is what I understand.
杰夫·谢珀 这就是我的理解。
And that is what I believe.
这就是我所相信的。
Jeff started to work on election stuff full-time after that, became the number two person at an activist group called Michigan Fair Elections that does all sorts of lawsuits and election monitoring and public education.
此后，杰夫开始全职从事选举工作，成为一个名为“密歇根公平选举”的激进组织的二号人物，该组织负责各种诉讼、选举监督和公共教育。
That's how he ended up on election night 2024 as one of the lead Republican election challengers in Detroit, the location in Michigan, I think it is fair to say, that Republicans were most suspicious about.
这就是他如何在 2024 年选举之夜成为底特律共和党选举的主要挑战者之一，我认为可以公平地说，底特律是共和党人最怀疑的地方。
Before he retired, Jeff was a systems guy in the auto industry.
退休前，杰夫是汽车行业的一名系统人员。
He's got the air of a very sincere dad patiently helping you with your homework.
他有一种非常真诚的父亲的气质，耐心地帮助你做作业。
He also likes a good tagline.
他还喜欢好的口号。
That one came up in a bunch of stories he told me.
这个故事出现在他告诉我的一堆故事中。
My goal, again, remember-- investigate, educate, and if need be, litigate.
再次记住，我的目标是调查、教育，如果需要，还可以提起诉讼。
So that's Jeff.
这就是杰夫。
And here's the moment that I thought was interesting.
这是我认为有趣的时刻。
When I told Jeff this breaking news about the trucks with California plates at 11:00 PM, this election skeptic was not having it.
当我在晚上 11:00 告诉杰夫这个关于加州牌照卡车的突发新闻时，这位选举怀疑论者并没有接受。
How to say this?
这句话怎么说呢？
If you don't know the process, you see something and yell.
如果你不知道这个过程，你就会看到一些东西并大喊大叫。
No. What that is, in looking at it, that looks like it's an election board.
不，那是什么，从表面上看，它看起来像是一个选举委员会。
He tells me that 11:00 PM is when you would expect ballots to show up at the convention center.
他告诉我，选票将在晚上 11:00 出现在会议中心。
And those three supposed vote stealers in the video posted on X, they're carrying a white box, a red bag, and another box.
X 上发布的视频中的那三个所谓的选票窃取者，他们拿着一个白色盒子、一个红色袋子和另一个盒子。
You see these white boxes?
你看到这些白盒子了吗？
OK, that's a tabulator inside.
好吧，里面有一个制表机。
OK, you see those gray metal boxes?
好吧，你看到那些灰色的金属盒子了吗？
Those have the ballots in them.
那些里面有选票。
And then they have the poll book, which is in a red sealed bag.
然后他们有民意调查簿，装在一个红色密封袋里。
And that's normal process.
这是正常的过程。
It's interesting that you activists have become such experts that you're correcting misinformation that other people are putting out now.
有趣的是，你们活动家已经成为这样的专家，你们正在纠正其他人现在发布的错误信息。
Well, back in 2021, we didn't know squat.
好吧，早在 2021 年，我们还不知道深蹲。
And we was in a process of learning.
我们正处于学习的过程中。
We learned.
我们学到了。
I should say, for all the factual information that I saw Jeff give out on election night, he and his group do also spread information that does not seem as credible, like, for example, the idea that Michigan's voter rolls-- which, like other states, have a lot of inactive voters on them-- are a real problem and might be used for widespread fraud.
我应该说，尽管我看到杰夫在选举之夜发布了所有事实信息，但他和他的团队确实还散布了看起来不那么可信的信息，例如，密歇根州的选民名册——与其他州一样，有很多不活跃的选民——是一个真正的问题，可能被用于广泛的欺诈。
Michigan's secretary of state disputes that.
密歇根州国务卿对此提出异议。
He and I talked about it.
他和我谈论过这件事。
Neither convinced the other.
双方都没有说服对方。
On election day, Jeff and the other Republican poll challengers that I talked to, they were pretty happy with what they were seeing.
在选举日，杰夫和我采访过的其他共和党民意调查挑战者对所看到的情况非常满意。
Throughout the day, they all said the same things to me, that Detroit had adjusted a few procedural things in handling ballots since 2020, and those fixes were working.
一整天，他们都对我说了同样的话，即底特律自 2020 年以来调整了一些处理选票的程序，而且这些调整正在发挥作用。
Ballots were counted in batches of 50 by small teams.
选票由小团队以 50 张为一批进行清点。
Nobody moved on until there was agreement about each batch.
在就每批产品达成一致之前，没有人继续前进。
It was a good, clean count.
这是一次很好、干净的计数。
All I can say is what I've witnessed.
我只能说我亲眼所见。
The voting process has been orderly, organized, and valid.
投票过程有序、有组织、有效。
And what's the mood inside between the Democratic and Republican vote watchers?
民主党和共和党的投票观察者内心的情绪如何？
Calm and cordial.
冷静而亲切。
Yeah, I mean, there's not much to argue about.
是的，我的意思是，没有什么可争论的。
There's been very few needs for adjudication.
很少需要裁决。
Adjudication to settle disputes.
裁决解决纠纷。
Jeff is involved in those because he's one of the lead Republican challengers.
杰夫参与其中是因为他是共和党的主要挑战者之一。
He says in eight days of counting--
他说在八天内计算——
I've seen adjudications maybe 15, 16, 17 times.
我大概看过判决15、16、17次。
15 times or so out of how many votes is that?
多少票中有 15 次左右？
78,000 processed.
已处理 78,000 个。
Ira Glass If Harris wins, say, in Michigan, would you believe the result?
艾拉·格拉斯 如果哈里斯在密歇根州获胜，你会相信结果吗？
Yes, I would, based on what I've seen here.
是的，根据我在这里所看到的，我会的。
That is a really remarkable change, that in 2020, you're saying you don't believe the result, and you're saying this time around, even if Harris wins, you're inclined to think that you're going to believe the result.
这是一个非常显着的变化，在2020年，你说你不相信结果，而你说这一次，即使哈里斯获胜，你也倾向于认为你会相信结果。
That's right.
这是正确的。
I do.
我愿意。
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass He and other Republicans said this to me throughout the day, well before the results came in.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 他和其他共和党人一整天都在结果公布之前对我说了这句话。
And I'll be honest, I am not sure I believe they all would have stuck by that if Harris won.
老实说，我不确定如果哈里斯获胜，我相信他们都会坚持这一点。
After all, last time, it seems like nothing happened that could throw an election.
毕竟，上次似乎没有发生任何可能引发选举的事情。
Many court cases and a bipartisan state senate investigation found no evidence of a steal.
许多法庭案件和两党州参议院的调查没有发现盗窃的证据。
But they found all kinds of evidence and continue to believe it.
但他们找到了各种证据并继续相信。
But this time, Trump won, and the election doubters have been pretty quiet.
但这一次，特朗普获胜，选举怀疑者却相当安静。
Late in the evening-- or I guess it was the early morning-- after it became clear that Michigan and the rest of the swing states were going to go for Trump, I asked Jeff if he felt like this was partly his doing, like his years of work on election monitoring had paid off in an election that he could trust.
深夜——或者我猜是凌晨——在密歇根州和其他摇摆州明显支持特朗普之后，我问杰夫是否觉得这部分是他的所作所为，就像他多年来在选举监督方面的工作在一场他可以信任的选举中得到了回报。
Did he feel a sense of victory?
他有没有一种胜利的感觉？
Not victory-- satisfaction.
不是胜利——而是满足。
Satisfaction.
满意。
And the job is not done.
但工作还没有完成。
Tomorrow, we go back, and we start working on the voter rolls that are bloated.
明天，我们回去，开始处理臃肿的选民名册。
Our work is not finished here.
我们的工作还没有完成。
This is a satisfying moment.
这是一个令人满足的时刻。
It's just like a football game or a basketball game.
这就像一场足球比赛或篮球比赛。
You have one day to enjoy it.
你有一天可以享受它。
Then you prepare for the next game.
然后你就准备下一场比赛。
This is not going away, the doubts about elections in our country, the scrutinizing and arguing over them.
对我国选举的怀疑、对选举的审查和争论并没有消失。
It was interesting, in the wake of Trump's very solid victory, that it was mostly the Democrats you saw on social media wondering if the election was stolen.
有趣的是，在特朗普取得非常稳固的胜利之后，你在社交媒体上看到的大多数民主党人都在想选举是否被窃取。
There wasn't a ton of that.
没有那么多。
It was a tiny whisper of a complaint, compared to the nonstop multimedia barrage of videos and charts we got in 2020 from Republicans.
与我们在 2020 年从共和党人那里收到的不间断的多媒体视频和图表相比，这只是微不足道的抱怨。
But if the election had been more of a real squeaker and Harris lost, I bet we would have heard a lot more of that.
但如果选举更加激烈，哈里斯失败了，我敢打赌我们会听到更多这样的消息。
It is easy to see the appeal of that kind of doubt.
很容易看出这种怀疑的吸引力。
Act Three, "Oh, What a Hangled Web We Weave." OK, a quick heads up before we start this next story that it mentions a part of the male anatomy.
第三幕，“噢，我们编织的网多么悬啊”。好的，在我们开始下一个故事之前，先快速提醒一下，它提到了男性解剖学的一部分。
Take that under advisement, pro and con.
无论赞成还是反对，请接受建议。
Decide what you're going to do.
决定你要做什么。
It is not what the story is about.
这不是故事的主题。
The story is about a creepy and dangerous creature that does all kinds of terrible things.
这个故事讲述了一种令人毛骨悚然且危险的生物，它会做各种可怕的事情。
It's also about somebody who takes issue with every word that I just said about that creature.
这也是关于有人对我刚才所说的关于那个生物的每一句话都提出异议的人。
And they want a recount.
他们想要重新计票。
They want a reconsideration.
他们想要重新考虑。
They want us all to examine the facts and stop believing the fake news about this creature.
他们希望我们所有人都检查事实并停止相信有关这种生物的假新闻。
Lilly Sullivan met up with this person to hear her out.
莉莉·沙利文（Lilly Sullivan）会见了这个人，听她讲述。
This person is my friend, Kelsey Padgett.
这个人是我的朋友凯尔西·帕吉特。
And if you run into her at a dinner party or a bar-- maybe you happen to be standing behind her in the security line at the airport-- she might ask you this.
如果你在晚宴或酒吧遇到她——也许你恰好在机场安检线上站在她身后——她可能会问你这个。
What do you know about black widow spiders?
关于黑寡妇蜘蛛你了解多少？
What do you know?
你知道什么？
OK, I know that they're very poisonous.
好吧，我知道它们有毒。
Like they have a really bad bite, a bite that can kill you.
就像它们咬得很厉害，一口就能杀死你。
Hmm.
唔。
Lilly Sullivan And I know that the female, after mating, kills the male and eats him?
莉莉·沙利文 我知道雌性在交配后会杀死雄性并吃掉他？
Fantastic.
极好的。
That is exactly what most people know about black widow spiders.
这正是大多数人对黑寡妇蜘蛛的了解。
And you're totally wrong.
你完全错了。
And this is Kelsey's mission-- to expose the lies about this spider being a wanton murderess, correct the record, and restore her good name.
而这就是凯尔西的使命——揭穿这只蜘蛛是肆意杀人犯的谎言，纠正记录，恢复她的名誉。
Kelsey used to work as a park ranger in New York, by the way.
顺便说一句，凯尔西曾经在纽约担任公园管理员。
She also used to report science stories.
她还曾经报道过科学故事。
And over the years, she's amassed an absurd amount of information about these spiders.
多年来，她收集了有关这些蜘蛛的大量信息。
So let me tell you.
那么让我告诉你。
I'll start with the black widow name, the idea that the black widow eats her husband or the spider they just mated with, that she is a murderer dressed all in black, mourning a husband that they just killed.
我将从黑寡妇这个名字开始，黑寡妇吃掉她的丈夫或他们刚刚交配的蜘蛛，她是一个穿着黑衣服的凶手，哀悼他们刚刚杀死的丈夫。
Kelsey says the female eating the male-- OK, this has happened, but very rarely.
凯尔西说雌性吃雄性——好吧，这种情况确实发生过，但很少见。
And it's barely a noticeable trait if you look around at what the rest of spiders are doing.
如果你环顾四周其他蜘蛛在做什么，这几乎不是一个明显的特征。
Many species of baby spiders, which are called spiderlings, often eat their siblings right after hatching.
许多种类的小蜘蛛（称为小蜘蛛）经常在孵化后立即吃掉它们的兄弟姐妹。
And some species of spiderlings even eat their own mother after hatching.
有些种类的蜘蛛甚至在孵化后吃掉自己的母亲。
Oh.
哦。
Kelsey Padgett And sexual cannibalism, which is like eating your mate after he has done the deed with you, is very common in the spider world.
凯尔西·帕吉特（Kelsey Padgett） 性食人行为，就像在你的伴侣与你做完事后吃掉他一样，在蜘蛛世界中很常见。
Oh.
哦。
Kelsey Padgett But you know who it's not common that much for, is black widow spiders.
凯尔西·帕吉特 但你知道黑寡妇蜘蛛对谁来说并不常见。
They only do this in captivity.
他们只有在圈养的情况下才会这样做。
It's practically never been seen in the wild, in the Northern Hemisphere.
在北半球的野外几乎从未见过它。
Meanwhile, the male spider, he's no Mr. Rogers.
与此同时，雄性蜘蛛，他不是罗杰斯先生。
Check out what he does.
看看他做了什么。
So the male black widow will sometimes go around to the female's web and clip off little parts of it so that she has no exit routes.
因此，雄性黑寡妇有时会绕过雌性的网，剪掉它的一小部分，这样她就没有退出路线了。
And then he will go up next to her and calmly caress her.
然后他会走到她身边，平静地爱抚她。
And then he throws a web of his own over her to then copulate with her.
然后他在她身上扔了一张自己的网，然后与她交配。
Oh.
哦。
Kelsey Padgett And the scientists have called that web the bridal veil, which is so not what that should be called.
凯尔西·帕吉特（Kelsey Padgett）科学家们将这种网称为“新娘面纱”，但其实这不应该被称为“新娘面纱”。
Are you serious?
你是认真的？
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
Kelsey Padgett But it strikes me as a very weird behavior.
凯尔西·帕吉特 但我觉得这是一种非常奇怪的行为。
And if I were a person naming spiders and saw that sometimes the female ate the male after eating, but also that the male does this crazy thing and ties down the lady, basically, I might name the spider after that.
如果我是一个给蜘蛛命名的人，看到有时雌性在吃完雄性后会吃掉雄性，而且雄性会做出这种疯狂的事情并绑住雌性，基本上，我可能会以此命名蜘蛛。
But why didn't they?
但他们为什么不这样做呢？
Because they were men.
因为他们是男人。
[LAUGHS] And they thought it was exceptional that the female killed the male.
[笑]他们认为雌性杀死雄性是很罕见的。
Oh, my gosh.
哦，天哪。
Can't have that.
不能有那个。
A lot of species of spiders do this bridal veil thing.
很多种类的蜘蛛都会做这种新娘面纱的事情。
One theory is the one Kelsey lays out, that the male's trapping the female.
凯尔西提出的一种理论是雄性诱捕雌性。
There's another newer one, too-- which is more accepted by scientists now-- that it's more seduction than a trap.
还有另一个较新的说法——现在更被科学家所接受——它更多的是诱惑而不是陷阱。
As a scientist put it when they explained it to me, it's bondage.
正如一位科学家向我解释时所说的那样，这是束缚。
Yep, spiders do bondage.
是的，蜘蛛会束缚。
Myth number two-- that her bite is fatal.
谣言之二——她的咬伤是致命的。
So from 1950 to 1959, the data we have says that there were 63 deaths in the US from black widow spiders.
因此，从 1950 年到 1959 年，我们掌握的数据显示，美国有 63 人死于黑寡妇蜘蛛。
Interestingly, most of the black widow bite victims back then seemed to be male.
有趣的是，当时大多数被黑寡妇咬伤的受害者似乎都是男性。
In an older study, they were 80% male.
在一项较早的研究中，他们 80% 是男性。
Here's a theory as to why.
这是一个关于原因的理论。
So most of the reported black widow bites from this time happened in what were called outdoor privies-- outhouses.
因此，从那时起，大多数报告的黑寡妇咬伤事件都发生在所谓的户外厕所中。
Hmm.
唔。
Kelsey Padgett So black widow spiders, they enjoy dark, low-to-the-ground places.
凯尔西·帕吉特 黑寡妇蜘蛛喜欢黑暗、低矮的地方。
They especially love to make their cobwebs between two objects.
他们特别喜欢在两个物体之间制作蜘蛛网。
Hmm.
唔。
Kelsey Padgett And so, because bugs like stinky places-- you know?
凯尔西·帕吉特：所以，因为虫子喜欢臭地方——你知道吗？
Like imagine flies, right?
就像想象的苍蝇一样，对吧？
There's flies in outhouses-- that it makes it a great food supply.
外屋里有苍蝇——这使它成为一个很好的食物来源。
Right?
正确的？
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Kelsey Padgett And to get to the stinky stuff, you got to go through the bowl.
凯尔西·帕吉特：要想得到那些臭东西，你必须穿过碗。
Right?
正确的？
Right, right.
对，对。
Kelsey Padgett So putting your web there is excellent.
Kelsey Padgett 因此，将您的网络放在那里非常棒。
So imagine this.
所以想象一下。
It's the 1950s.
现在是 20 世纪 50 年代。
You're a dude.
你是个家伙。
You need to go number two.
你需要走第二位。
You make your way out to the outhouse, you sit down, and your junk hangles there.
你走到外屋，坐下来，你的垃圾挂在那里。
And as it does, it hits the cobweb.
当它这样做时，它撞上了蜘蛛网。
And the usually non-aggressive black widow instinctually runs over and bites down on the new creature that has landed on its web.
通常不具有攻击性的黑寡妇会本能地跑过去咬住落在它网上的新生物。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
Kelsey Padgett [LAUGHS] OK.
凯尔西·帕吉特 [笑] 好的。
So--
所以——
That is terrifying, though.
但这很可怕。
Kelsey Padgett It is!
凯尔西·帕吉特 是的！
Isn't it?
不是吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Kelsey Padgett Yeah.
凯尔西·帕吉特 是的。
There's not even.
甚至没有。
You can't even imagine a better situation tailored to getting bit by this usually very non-aggressive spider.
你甚至无法想象有比这更好的情况来被这种通常非常不具有攻击性的蜘蛛咬伤。
They don't come after you.
他们不会来追你。
And the statistic that you saw, how many bites were on penises?
你看到的统计数据是，阴茎上有多少次被咬伤？
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
She thinks all these penis bites happening so regularly might be one of the reasons there were so many deaths back then.
她认为，所有这些阴茎咬伤事件如此频繁地发生可能是当时造成如此多死亡的原因之一。
The skin there is less thick, and there are lots of nerves there, right?
那里的皮肤比较薄，神经也比较多吧？
And this is a neurotoxin venom.
这是一种神经毒素毒液。
So--
所以——
Oh, oh, oh.
哦，哦，哦。
Kelsey Padgett --perhaps being bit on the genitals sends the venom going into your body in a faster or stronger way than, say, if you were bit on a callus on your foot.
凯尔西·帕吉特——也许被咬到生殖器会让毒液以更快或更强烈的方式进入你的身体，比方说，如果你被咬到脚上的老茧。
Anyway, the point is, once more people had indoor plumbing, along with improved access to medical care, the numbers, which weren't that high to begin with, they've gone way down.
无论如何，重点是，一旦更多的人拥有室内管道，并且获得医疗服务的机会有所改善，这个数字（一开始并没有那么高）已经大幅下降。
And in the last several decades, there's no record of anyone dying from a black widow spider.
在过去的几十年里，没有任何人死于黑寡妇蜘蛛的记录。
No one.
没有人。
In fact, the black widow is usually a pretty shy spider.
事实上，黑寡妇通常是一只非常害羞的蜘蛛。
Scientists have even done tests where they poke and prod her, trying to elicit a bite.
科学家们甚至进行了测试，他们用戳戳的方式试图让她被咬。
And she turns to other defenses first-- tries to run away, curls up into a little ball no bigger than a quarter.
她首先转向其他防御——试图逃跑，蜷缩成一个不超过四分之一的小球。
Sometimes she throws silk at the danger to try to escape.
有时她会向危险扔丝绸以试图逃脱。
The bite is her last resort.
咬人是她最后的手段。
So yeah, I think that the world should know that they've been lied to, and that the black widow spider is not that bad.
所以，是的，我认为全世界都应该知道他们被骗了，而且黑寡妇蜘蛛并没有那么糟糕。
And Kelsey has a proposal to set the record straight-- change the spider's name.
凯尔西提出了一个澄清事实的提议——改变蜘蛛的名字。
Easy.
简单的。
Get rid of the name that mires her in all this twisted lore she doesn't deserve.
摆脱让她陷入所有这些她不配的扭曲传说中的名字。
I think that's what it looks like, renaming her.
我想这就是它的样子，给她重命名。
Black widow spiders were not always called black widow spiders.
黑寡妇蜘蛛并不总是被称为黑寡妇蜘蛛。
They've had many different names.
他们有很多不同的名字。
Some of the names are the hourglass spider, the T-bar spider.
其中一些名字是沙漏蜘蛛、T 形蜘蛛。
The Miwok people, Indigenous to California, called the spider pokomoo.
加利福尼亚州的原住民米沃克人将蜘蛛称为“pokomoo”。
The shoe button spider.
鞋扣蜘蛛。
Lilly Sullivan So cute.
莉莉·沙利文好可爱啊
She looks like a button, after all-- a little round one.
毕竟，她看起来像一颗纽扣——一颗小圆的。
So I decided to test out this new name on the people I thought were the best suited to judge.
所以我决定在我认为最适合评判的人身上测试这个新名字。
It was like my whole chest was in a vice grip.
就好像我的整个胸部都被老虎钳抓住了。
I spoke with eight people who'd been bitten, talked to 11 others over email.
我与 8 名被咬伤的人进行了交谈，并通过电子邮件与另外 11 人进行了交谈。
Here are some of them.
以下是其中一些。
Imagine the worst cramp that you've ever had in your life.
想象一下您一生中经历过的最严重的痉挛。
Like a Charley horse in your leg, but that being my whole back.
就像你腿上的查理马一样，但那是我的整个背部。
Like a really bad Charley horse that doesn't stop and envelops your whole chest, right?
就像一匹非常糟糕的查理马，不停地包裹着你的整个胸部，对吧？
I was twisting up my body, and I was holding onto the side panels of the vehicle and bracing myself when it was happening.
当事情发生时，我扭动着身体，抓住了车辆的侧板并支撑着自己。
And so, weirdly enough, I wondered, is this what it feels like to go into labor?
所以，奇怪的是，我想知道，这就是分娩的感觉吗？
Not everyone who's bit has a bad reaction like this.
并不是每个被咬的人都会有这样的不良反应。
And again, bites are very rare.
再说一遍，被咬的情况非常罕见。
And a lot of the time, they're mild.
很多时候，它们都很温和。
But when it's bad, it's bad.
但当情况不好的时候，那就很糟糕了。
So I ran Kelsey's idea by them.
所以我按照他们的思路执行了凯尔西的想法。
Do you think we should rename the black widow spider, the shoe button spider?
你认为我们应该将黑寡妇蜘蛛重新命名为鞋扣蜘蛛吗？
13 people weighed in.
13人参与了衡量。
No one was into it.
没有人参与其中。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
I do not like that at all.
我一点也不喜欢这样。
No offense to the people who named that the shoe button spider back in the old days, but that is a very lame name.
无意冒犯那些在过去将其命名为“鞋扣蜘蛛”的人，但这是一个非常蹩脚的名字。
This is Jenna.
这是珍娜。
She got bit eight years ago in a porta potty at Coachella.
八年前，她在科切拉音乐节的便盆里被咬了。
Have you ever seen a black widow spider?
你见过黑寡妇蜘蛛吗？
They look cool.
他们看起来很酷。
They are a spider you shouldn't mess with.
它们是你不应该惹恼的蜘蛛。
And they probably have a bad rap.
他们的名声可能很差。
But I do like black widow.
但我确实喜欢黑寡妇。
It gives it some power.
它赋予它一些力量。
And I think those spiders definitely have power.
我认为那些蜘蛛绝对有力量。
Someone else who'd been bit told me, honestly, I think black widow is an excellent name.
其他被咬过的人告诉我，老实说，我认为黑寡妇是一个很棒的名字。
And were I a spider, I would feel really cool with a name like that.
如果我是一只蜘蛛，我会觉得这样的名字真的很酷。
Lilly Sullivan is one of the producers of our program.
莉莉·沙利文是我们节目的制作人之一。
Kelsey Padgett is the co-host of the podcast, Fierce Rivalries, about big rivalries in history, but also gossipy, petty feuds of all sorts.
凯尔西·帕吉特 (Kelsey Padgett) 是播客《激烈的竞争》(Fierce Rivalries) 的联合主持人，该播客讲述了历史上的重大竞争，但也包括各种八卦、小争执。
It is available wherever you get your podcasts.
无论您在哪里获取播客，都可以使用它。
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced by Zoe Chace.
鸣谢 Ira Glass 我们的节目由 Zoe Chace 制作。
The people who put together today's show include Michael Comite, Emmanuel Dzotsi, Henry Larson, Seth Lind, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Kristina Olias, Nadia Reiman, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, and Matt Tierney.
今天节目的制作人包括 Michael Comite、Emmanuel Dzotsi、Henry Larson、Seth Lind、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Kristina Olias、Nadia Reiman、Anthony Roman、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala 和 Matt Tierney。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Tim Daly, Dorothy Kronick, Annelise Pineda, Javier Corrales, Veronica Bayetti Flores, Francisco Toro, and Francisco Rodriguez.
今天特别感谢 Tim Daly、Dorothy Kronick、Annelise Pineda、Javier Corrales、Veronica Bayetti Flores、Francisco Toro 和 Francisco Rodriguez。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
To become a This American Life Partner and get all kinds of bonus content, bonus episodes, AMAs, ad-free listening, plus hundreds of greatest hits episodes right in your podcast feed, go to thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.
要成为 This American Life 合作伙伴并获得各种奖励内容、奖励剧集、AMA、无广告收听以及播客提要中的数百个热门剧集，请访问 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners。
That link is also in the show notes.
该链接也在节目注释中。
Thanks to two Life Partners, Jihan Gibson, Pria Elizabeth Harmon, Kelly Scherer, and Sally Sloan.
感谢两位人生伴侣：Jihan Gibson、Pria Elizabeth Harmon、Kelly Scherer 和 Sally Sloan。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He says that every weekend, he sits there, listening to his local public radio station.
他说每个周末他都会坐在那里听当地的公共广播电台。
My voice comes on.
我的声音响起。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。