846: This Is the Cake We Baked - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #846 | November 8, 2024 846: This Is the Cake We Baked Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 846 集 | 2024 年 11 月 8 日 846：这是我们烤的蛋糕 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass So this week, lots of people looked at the election results and thought, yeah, this is the country that I thought it was.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 所以本周，很多人看到选举结果并想，是的，这就是我所认为的国家。
And for some people, that was a really hopeful thing, and others, kind of the opposite.
对于某些人来说，这确实是一件充满希望的事情，而另一些人则恰恰相反。
And let's start with the winners.
让我们从获胜者开始。
I'm joined in the studio right now by Zoe Chace.
佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）现在加入了我的工作室。
Hello.
你好。
Ira Glass Hey there, Zoe.
艾拉·格拉斯 嘿，佐伊。
So election night, you and I were in Michigan together, and you got to go to the Republican victory party.
所以选举之夜，你和我一起在密歇根州，你必须去参加共和党胜利派对。
I did.
我做到了。
Ira Glass Let's bring in the sound.
Ira Glass：让我们引入声音。
There it is.
就在那里。
Zoe Chace As I walk in, the polls were closing.
当我走进佐伊·切斯时，投票即将结束。
The results were starting to come in.
结果开始出来了。
I have to say, I walked in kind of prepared for the last war, like the last election.
我不得不说，我是为上次战争，比如上次选举，做好准备的。
Explain what you mean.
解释一下你的意思。
Zoe Chace Well, I know a lot of these Republicans in Michigan.
佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）：嗯，我认识密歇根州的很多共和党人。
I know they've been mobilizing, for years, an army of poll watchers and poll challengers and lawyers to challenge the results of a fraudulent election.
我知道多年来他们一直在动员一支由民意调查观察者、民意调查挑战者和律师组成的大军来挑战欺诈性选举的结果。
So I come in expecting super tight results, and a long fight, and tension, and anxiety, and suspicion.
所以我来的时候期待着非常紧张的结果、一场漫长的战斗、紧张、焦虑和怀疑。
That is not what I found.
这不是我发现的。
[CROWD CHEERING]
[人群欢呼]
We're up in Pennsylvania.
我们在宾夕法尼亚州。
We just tied in Michigan.
我们刚刚在密歇根打平。
[INDISTINCT CHATTER] My heart's going to pop out of my chest.
[模糊不清的喋喋不休]我的心快要从胸口跳出来了。
It's Eric Castiglia, longtime Republican activist.
这是埃里克·卡斯蒂利亚（Eric Castiglia），长期的共和党活动家。
He runs a PAC called Brighter Michigan.
他经营着一个名为“光明密歇根”的政治行动委员会。
He believes the last election was rife with fraud-- not this one.
他认为上一次选举充满了欺诈行为，而这次则不然。
In fact, there was never a moment, once the count started, where anyone in this room wasn't believing the results.
事实上，一旦计票开始，这个房间里的任何人都不会不相信结果。
Well, yeah, because it was all breaking their way.
嗯，是的，因为这一切都打破了他们的道路。
I know, but also, these are the people on the ground who ran the ground game in Michigan, and they were feeling really good about what they did.
我知道，但这些人在密歇根州进行了实地比赛，他们对自己所做的事情感觉非常好。
All right, Eric.
好吧，埃里克。
What's going to happen?
将会发生什么？
I think he's going to win, baby.
我认为他会赢，宝贝。
He's going to win.
他会赢。
I'm so happy.
我太高兴了。
I am so happy, Zoe.
我很高兴，佐伊。
You have no idea.
你不知道。
So it was obvious to them they were going to win way before it was obvious to you.
所以对他们来说，很明显他们会赢，比你更明显。
Yes, very much.
是的，非常喜欢。
Like, when I was talking to Amber Harris-- we first met last year.
就像，当我和安布尔·哈里斯谈话时——我们去年第一次见面。
She's a Republican activist.
她是一名共和党活动家。
I didn't honestly expect the night to go this way in general.
老实说，我没想到夜晚会以这种方式进行。
I did, yeah.
我做到了，是的。
We worked really hard for this.
我们为此付出了很大的努力。
And I'm happy.
我很高兴。
I'm very happy.
我很高兴。
We worked really, really hard.
我们工作得非常非常努力。
We knocked a lot of doors.
我们敲了很多门。
We went into territories that we never would have, whether it was Detroit-- because we had nothing to lose.
我们进入了我们永远不会拥有的领土，无论是底特律——因为我们没有什么可失去的。
As a party, we have nothing to lose besides talking to people.
作为一个政党，除了与人交谈之外，我们没有什么可失去的。
And I think that this is a very-- this is what came when you just talk to people.
我认为这就是当你与人交谈时会发生的事情。
[LAUGHS] Like--
[笑]就像——
She's right that more people came out.
她是对的，更多的人出来了。
The Republican vote in Michigan was unprecedented.
密歇根州的共和党投票是史无前例的。
Trump got more votes than he did last time he ran in Detroit, in the surrounding suburbs, in almost every county in the state of Michigan.
特朗普在底特律、周边郊区以及密歇根州几乎每个县都获得了比上次竞选更多的选票。
OK.
好的。
So then, at some point in the night, Trump wins.
那么，在晚上的某个时刻，特朗普获胜了。
Trump!
王牌！
Trump!
王牌！
Trump!
王牌！
Trump!
王牌！
Ira Glass Thank you.
艾拉·格拉斯 谢谢。
And I see a guy breaking down crying at the front of the room.
我看到一个人在房间前面哭泣。
He's the regional director for Macomb County.
他是马科姆县的地区主任。
I think people realized that we're better off with President Trump, that he provided a great, great way of living for us, that he provided a way for us to provide for our families.
我认为人们意识到，有了特朗普总统，我们的生活会更好，他为我们提供了一种非常非常好的生活方式，他为我们提供了一种养家糊口的方式。
And I think people miss that.
我认为人们会怀念这一点。
I think people truly miss that.
我认为人们真的很怀念这一点。
I think they just yearn to go back to where we were.
我认为他们只是渴望回到我们原来的地方。
And I think people believed in him.
我认为人们相信他。
And that's true-- some people.
确实如此——有些人。
And some did not.
有些人没有。
Somebody I had checked with a couple of days after the election was Danny Hodges.
选举后几天我曾咨询过丹尼·霍奇斯（Danny Hodges）。
He's a Washington, DC, policeman who was one of the officers who defended the Capitol building back on January 6.
他是华盛顿特区的一名警察，也是 1 月 6 日保卫国会大厦的警官之一。
He was beaten.
他被殴打了。
Somebody tried to gouge out his eye.
有人试图挖出他的眼睛。
He was trapped by the crowd at one point, and a man took his nightstick and hit his head.
他一度被人群困住，一名男子拿着警棍打了他的头。
In the wake of that, he's testified in Congress and at the trials of a number of people who attacked the Capitol, including one last week.
此后，他在国会作证，并在对多名袭击国会大厦的人的审判中作证，其中包括上周的一名袭击者。
And when I talked to him, he said something that I heard from a bunch of Democrats.
当我和他交谈时，他说了一些我从一群民主党人那里听到的事情。
It's like, it wasn't just disappointment he was feeling, but a whole feeling that I can only describe as "whoa."
就好像，他感受到的不仅仅是失望，而是一种我只能用“哇”来形容的整体感觉。
Like many people, I'm sad and confused.
和很多人一样，我感到悲伤和困惑。
I'm still wrapping my head around how so many people could vote for Trump after everything we know about him, everything he's done.
在我们了解特朗普的一切以及他所做的一切之后，我仍在思考如何有这么多人投票支持特朗普。
I don't understand it.
我不明白。
I don't get it.
我不明白。
Since January 6, you've spoken so much about what happened to you at the Capitol-- over four years.
自 1 月 6 日以来，四年多来，您已经多次谈论了在国会大厦发生的事情。
When you started on that path, what did you hope it would accomplish?
当你开始走这条路时，你希望它能实现什么目标？
[LAUGHS] The opposite of this.
[笑]与此相反。
I hoped that I would communicate to the people that what happened was real, that Trump sent an armed mob to stop the peaceful transfer of power.
我希望我能向人们传达这样的信息：所发生的事情是真实的，特朗普派遣了武装暴徒来阻止权力的和平移交。
I wanted people to understand this, and in the hope that they would respect the rule of law and that they would have respect for the Constitution and choose their leaders with that in mind in the future.
我希望人们理解这一点，并希望他们尊重法治，尊重宪法，并在未来选择领导人时牢记这一点。
But I guess that wasn't at the top of everyone's priorities.
但我想这并不是每个人的首要任务。
And what's it like to look at the possibility that President Trump might do what he said he would do and let all these people free from January 6?
考虑到特朗普总统可能会按照他所说的那样，从 1 月 6 日起让所有这些人获得自由，你会有何感想？
It's hard to process.
很难处理。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know what to say about that except that I have no influence over that and I've just got to roll with it, however it happens.
我不知道对此该说些什么，除了我对此没有影响力，我只能顺其自然，无论它发生什么。
Today, after the billions of dollars spent and the countless hours of literally hundreds of thousands around the country who knocked themselves out for this election canvassing, donating, poll watching, doing everything they knew how to do, now, here we are, still a divided country, staring at each other across an abyss, but with a clear winner.
今天，在花费了数十亿美元和全国各地成千上万的时间为这次选举拉票、捐款、观察民意调查、做他们知道该怎么做的一切之后，现在，我们仍然是一个分裂的国家，隔着深渊互相凝视，但有一个明显的赢家。
We thought what we could do here on our show is spend some time with a few of the people who felt very strongly about the outcome of this race, who have a special, personal investment in it, looking ahead with them to what's next.
我们认为我们在节目中可以做的就是花一些时间与一些对这场比赛的结果有强烈感受的人一起，他们对此有特殊的个人投资，与他们一起展望接下来的事情。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，我是 Ira Glass。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: The Largest Deportation Operation in American History Ira Glass It's This American Life, Act One-- our act names today, by the way, are quotes from the president-elect-- "The Largest Deportation Operation in American History." So mass deportations are coming.
第一幕：美国历史上最大的驱逐行动 艾拉·格拉斯 这就是美国生活，第一幕——顺便说一句，我们今天的行动名称是来自候任总统的话——“美国历史上最大的驱逐行动”。因此大规模驱逐即将到来。
Donald Trump promised it.
唐纳德·特朗普承诺了这一点。
People waved mass deportation signs at his rallies.
人们在他的集会上挥舞着大规模驱逐的标语。
It was the first item on the Republican Party's platform this year.
这是共和党今年政纲上的第一个项目。
And at the Republican National Convention, Tom Homan, the guy who ran ICE under Trump, the Immigration and Customs Enforcement, had a message for undocumented immigrants-- you'd better start packing now.
在共和党全国代表大会上，特朗普领导下的移民和海关执法局负责人汤姆·霍曼（Tom Homan）向无证移民发出了一条信息——你们最好现在就开始收拾行李。
President Trump has claimed he's going to be able to deport between 15 and 20 million people.
特朗普总统声称他将能够驱逐 15 至 2000 万人。
His Vice President, JD Vance, said the number is lower, that they could do one million people per year.
他的副总裁 JD Vance 表示，这个数字较低，他们每年可以为 100 万人提供服务。
But Donald Trump and his team have never spelled out exactly how they would do this.
但唐纳德·特朗普和他的团队从未明确说明他们将如何做到这一点。
Our producer, Nadia Reiman, wondered about that, and looked into what mass deportation could actually look like if and when it comes to pass.
我们的制片人纳迪亚·雷曼（Nadia Reiman）对此感到好奇，并研究了如果大规模驱逐发生以及何时发生，它实际上会是什么样子。
I was kind of unfazed at first when I heard about Trump's mass deportation campaign promise.
当我听说特朗普的大规模驱逐出境竞选承诺时，一开始我并没有感到不安。
I've been covering immigration for years.
多年来我一直在报道移民问题。
There are so many undocumented people here that we can't even keep count.
这里有很多无证人员，我们甚至无法统计。
The closest estimate is 13.3 million.
最接近的估计是 1330 万。
So it's a big job to round up all of these people and to send them back to countries that may not take them.
因此，围捕所有这些人并将他们送回可能不会接收他们的国家是一项艰巨的任务。
It's expensive.
它很贵。
It's time-consuming.
这很耗时。
It's a crazy task.
这是一项疯狂的任务。
But then I was talking to a source inside the Department of Homeland Security.
但后来我与国土安全部内部的消息人士交谈。
And I said something like, I mean, I know there's no way Trump can do this mass deportation thing.
我说了类似的话，我的意思是，我知道特朗普不可能做这种大规模驱逐出境的事情。
And they stopped me.
他们阻止了我。
They were like, oh, sure, it can happen.
他们说，哦，当然，这可能会发生。
They said it so casually, like it was a given.
他们说得那么随意，就像这是理所当然的一样。
So I wanted to talk to someone who could break down how.
所以我想和一个可以分解的人谈谈。
Like, exactly how could you do something so massive?
就像，你到底怎么能做这么大规模的事情？
I tried talking to Tom Homan.
我尝试与汤姆·霍曼交谈。
He's rumored to be the next ICE director under Trump but has denied there's a written plan for mass deportations.
有传言称他将成为特朗普领导下的下一任 ICE 局长，但他否认有大规模驱逐出境的书面计划。
And he ghosted me.
他给我留下了阴影。
Jason Houser, however, was eager to talk.
然而，杰森·豪瑟却急于交谈。
He was the chief of staff for ICE under Biden for a couple years, has been working for DHS on and off since 9/11, mostly in enforcement.
他曾担任拜登领导下的 ICE 办公厅主任几年，自 9/11 以来一直断断续续地为国土安全部工作，主要从事执法工作。
He's passionate about all of this, in his wonky, government guy way.
他以他古怪的政府人的方式对这一切充满热情。
I talked to him for 3.5 hours, asked him basically to play pretend, game some stuff out with me.
我和他聊了 3.5 个小时，主要是让他玩假装，和我玩一些游戏。
What would happen in the first 100 days?
前 100 天会发生什么？
If he was in charge of ICE, what could he do to carry out this mass deportation mandate?
如果他负责 ICE，他能做什么来执行大规模驱逐任务？
Jason thinks that, first of all, the new Trump administration will immediately start to prep for this-- like, the day after the election, this week.
杰森认为，首先，特朗普新政府将立即开始为此做准备——比如大选后的第二天，本周。
They would start talking to law enforcement in different cities and getting them to agree to cooperate, hit the ground running in January.
他们将开始与不同城市的执法部门对话，并让他们同意合作，并于一月份开始运作。
ICE would talk to home countries to get them to agree to take people back.
ICE 将与原籍国对话，让他们同意将人员遣返。
And after those two things align, Jason says, ICE could decide to deport someone and they'd be out of the country within 24 hours.
Jason 说，在这两件事一致之后，ICE 可以决定驱逐某人，他们将在 24 小时内离开该国。
I think the first 90 days is going to be hell.
我认为最初的 90 天将会是地狱般的。
You're going to see the buses.
你会看到公共汽车。
You're going to see the migrants in your home-- not just blue cities, red cities-- Miami, Houston, Charlotte-- like, red states-- Kansas City, St. Louis.
你会在你的家乡看到移民——不仅仅是蓝色城市，红色城市——迈阿密、休斯顿、夏洛特——还有红色州——堪萨斯城、圣路易斯。
You're going to see kids not in your schools.
你会看到不在你学校的孩子。
You're going to know where they're at because they're waiting in a detention cell and they have cell phones.
你会知道他们在哪里，因为他们在拘留所里等待，而且他们有手机。
You're going to see it in social media.
你会在社交媒体上看到它。
You're going to see businesses not be able to open up because their workers didn't show up.
你会看到企业因为工人没有出现而无法开业。
You're going to see businesses being raided.
你会看到企业遭到袭击。
And it's going to become more intimate.
而且会变得更加亲密。
This isn't going to be about separating a family at the border, that somebody doesn't know that family member.
这并不是要在边境分离一个家庭，或者有人不认识那个家庭成员。
You're talking about separations and movements in your communities where you're going to know the guy-- Bill, Juan, Luis.
你正在谈论你所在社区的分离和流动，你将在那里认识这个人——比尔、胡安、路易斯。
You're going to know the individuals.
你会认识这些人的。
One of the things ICE would have to work around is which nationalities to deport first-- you know, if you wanted to make the most impact.
ICE 必须解决的问题之一是首先驱逐哪些国籍——你知道，如果你想产生最大的影响。
A lot of countries don't take their own people back.
许多国家不接回自己的人民。
Venezuela, for example, hardly accepts any immigrants back.
例如，委内瑞拉几乎不接受任何移民回来。
Brazil only accepts two to four flights of immigrants a month.
巴西每月只接受两到四趟移民航班。
So who are the first people who would be deported, like, in the first hundred days?
那么，在最初的一百天内，谁是第一批被驱逐出境的人呢？
Haitians and Guatemalans.
海地人和危地马拉人。
Nadia Reiman Haitians and Guatemalans?
纳迪亚·雷曼 (Nadia Reiman) 海地人和危地马拉人？
These countries take back the most flights.
这些国家收回的航班最多。
So I have an ability to remove-- at volume-- individuals.
所以我有能力大量清除个人。
A lot of them have entered through pathways that we've developed, where we've gained biometric, we've gained vetting, and we've--
他们中的许多人是通过我们开发的途径进入的，我们已经获得了生物识别，我们已经获得了审查，而且我们——
Yeah, we know where they are.
是的，我们知道他们在哪里。
We know where they are.
我们知道他们在哪里。
They're working, non-criminal.
他们正在工作，非犯罪。
We go out, we find them.
我们出去，找到他们。
We're going to find nationalities that are easily removable.
我们将找到容易去除的国籍。
And we're probably going to do it at volume with single adults first, because removing families is more complex.
我们可能会首先针对单身成年人进行批量处理，因为移除家庭更加复杂。
You've got to hold them, detain them, put them in hotels.
你必须抓住他们，拘留他们，把他们关进旅馆。
It's very staff-intensive.
这里的人员非常密集。
So I'm going to target down on single adults and nationalities where I know the country will take them back very, very quickly.
因此，我将把目标锁定在单身成年人和国籍上，我知道国家会非常非常快地把他们带回来。
OK.
好的。
So Haitians and Guatemalans and then--
海地人和危地马拉人然后——
Who's next after those two?
这两人之后下一个是谁呢？
Jason Houser Hondurans, right?
贾森·豪瑟 (Jason Houser) 洪都拉斯人，对吗？
We talk about Guatemalans, Hondurans, Nicaraguans, the countries where you see daily-- just in the news and the reporting by DHS and Homeland Security-- where are the most removal flights occurring?
我们谈论危地马拉人、洪都拉斯人、尼加拉瓜人，这些你每天都能看到的国家——只是在新闻以及国土安全部和国土安全部的报道中——发生最多的驱逐航班在哪里？
Those are the countries that accept those flights.
这些是接受这些航班的国家/地区。
But if I'm in this scenario where I'm the head of ICE for Trump, all the rules of engagement and policies are out the window.
但如果我在这种情况下，我是特朗普的 ICE 负责人，那么所有的参与规则和政策都将被抛之脑后。
Why not load up a few planeloads of Cuban nationals and send them to the Bahamas and just send them to a third party?
为什么不装载几架古巴国民并将他们送往巴哈马，然后将他们送往第三方呢？
Why not just-- I could go find a country that says they'll accept three or four planeloads of Cuban nationals, and I'll send them to a third-party country.
为什么不呢——我可以去找一个国家，说他们可以接受三到四架飞机的古巴国民，然后我会把他们送到第三方国家。
Jason says ICE can focus on getting people in eight major cities with airport hubs-- Philadelphia, DC, Chicago, Houston, Miami, Denver, New York, and LA.
Jason 表示，ICE 可以重点吸引八个拥有机场枢纽的主要城市的人员——费城、华盛顿特区、芝加哥、休斯顿、迈阿密、丹佛、纽约和洛杉矶。
Those have access to quick ICE flights to people's home countries.
这些人可以乘坐快速的 ICE 航班前往人们的祖国。
Jason thinks ICE can get people out before they can get to a judge or a lawyer.
杰森认为 ICE 可以在人们去找法官或律师之前将他们救出。
And one way to catch a lot of people quickly, especially the ones who snuck in and ICE has no info on, is to bring back worksite enforcement, a.k.a., large-scale raids.
快速抓获大量人员（尤其是那些潜入且 ICE 没有任何信息的人员）的一种方法是恢复工作现场执法，即大规模突击搜查。
The Biden administration stopped doing those.
拜登政府停止了这些做法。
Do you think there would be raids, then, in the first 100 days?
那么，您认为前 100 天内会发生袭击吗？
I think there would be raids within the first three weeks.
我认为前三周内就会有突袭。
Really?
真的吗？
Jason Houser Yeah.
杰森·豪瑟 是的。
Those are not hard to turn on.
这些并不难打开。
Like, to operationalize those, those aren't hard.
就像，要实施这些并不难。
You would go back to where there's big ICE and Customs and Border Protection resources to do enforcement.
你会回到拥有大量 ICE 和海关与边境保护局资源的地方进行执法。
And you would do them in communities that would show the most cruelty.
你会在表现出最残酷的社区里做这些事。
So there's nothing that would stop a Trump administration from going into the workplace, going into our hospitality sector, going into restaurants or businesses, and arresting individuals at scale.
因此，没有什么可以阻止特朗普政府进入工作场所、进入我们的酒店业、进入餐馆或企业并大规模逮捕个人。
Can you walk through what that would look like?
你能想象一下那会是什么样子吗？
What do you think that would look like?
你认为那会是什么样子？
Well, I think it would be very easy to focus on industries that have large numbers and high numbers of migrants working within them.
嗯，我认为重点关注拥有大量移民的行业是很容易的。
What would stop them from going into a meat processing plant in Virginia?
什么会阻止他们进入弗吉尼亚州的肉类加工厂？
Say there's a couple hundred migrants.
假设有几百名移民。
There's 80 on shift that day.
当天有 80 人轮班。
You go in, you know there's one individual there that has a final order of removal, maybe has a nonviolent criminal background.
你走进去，你知道那里有一个人收到了最终的驱逐令，也许有非暴力犯罪背景。
You go in, you do the raid, you line all the workers up, and you start checking status of each and every one of them, right?
你进去，进行突袭，将所有工人排成一排，然后开始检查每个人的状态，对吧？
Or maybe you just arrest them all, bring them into detention, and then do the checks to see who is removable.
或者，也许你只是将他们全部逮捕，拘留，然后进行检查，看看谁可以被驱逐。
There's nothing that could stop ICE, at that point, from just bringing people into custody, detaining them, and then figuring out who is removable at that time.
到那时，没有什么可以阻止 ICE 将人们拘留、拘留，然后确定当时谁可以被移走。
Tom Homan has not denied this, by the way.
顺便说一句，汤姆·霍曼并没有否认这一点。
He's said publicly something like this would be necessary.
他公开表示这样的事情是必要的。
Homan also said he would do national security threats first-- but then raids, sure.
霍曼还表示，他将首先进行国家安全威胁，然后当然会进行突袭。
Jason says the raids under a 2.0 Trump administration could be more militarized, with SWAT-style teams.
杰森表示，特朗普政府 2.0 时期的突袭行动可能会更加军事化，配备特警式的团队。
That's not how they've been done in the past.
他们过去不是这样做的。
He also told me he thinks nothing would stop ICE from going into hospitals or schools or churches.
他还告诉我，他认为没有什么可以阻止 ICE 进入医院、学校或教堂。
Normally, ICE doesn't do that.
通常情况下，ICE 不会这样做。
But this is just a policy, not a law.
但这只是一项政策，而不是法律。
So after doing these raids and trying to get people out quickly, ICE would be left with lots of immigrants that they have to hold until they can get them deported.
因此，在进行这些突袭并试图快速将人们带出境后，ICE 将留下大量移民，他们必须扣押这些移民，直到将他们驱逐出境。
I wanted to know, where would you hold all these people?
我想知道，你会把这些人关在哪里？
Would you build tent camps to hold people?
你会建造帐篷营地来容纳人们吗？
If I'm not looking out for the care of the law enforcement officers that are overseeing it or the migrants, yes, you could.
如果我不关心负责监督的执法人员或移民，是的，你可以。
When we did all the evacs and ICE had a very big support in the evacuation out of Afghanistan, we brought on soft-sided facilities at Fort Dix, New Jersey, and other places around the country.
当我们完成所有撤离工作时，ICE 在从阿富汗撤离方面得到了很大的支持，我们在新泽西州迪克斯堡和全国其他地方引进了软面设施。
But again--
但话又说回来——
Soft-sided facilities?
软面设施？
Is that euphemism for tents?
这是帐篷的委婉说法吗？
Well, yes.
嗯，是的。
They're big, sort of like fair-- like, carnival tents.
它们很大，有点像嘉年华的帐篷。
They're very thick plastic, and they're soft.
它们是非常厚的塑料，而且很软。
Yeah.
是的。
But what I'm saying is, let's say we put a thousand--
但我想说的是，假设我们放了一千——
You're like, they're weatherproof.
你会说，它们是防风雨的。
They're weatherproof.
它们是防风雨的。
But they're tents.
但它们是帐篷。
Well, they're not just, like, Coleman tents that you would get to go camping.
嗯，它们不仅仅是你可以去露营的科尔曼帐篷。
But what I'm saying is-- but the problem here is, those Afghanis were coming to safety.
但我想说的是——但问题是，那些阿富汗人正在安全地来到这里。
Now, you're saying, I'm going to bring on a soft-side tent to hold people so I can remove them in, like, 90 days.
现在，你说，我要带一个软边帐篷来容纳人员，这样我就可以在大约 90 天内将他们移走。
The idea that they're just going to, like-- OK, I'm going to live in this deplorable conditions and not cause unrest-- that's where it gets very dangerous.
他们只是想，比如——好吧，我要生活在这种悲惨的条件下，而不会引起骚乱——这就是非常危险的地方。
Dangerous because Jason thinks there would be fights, riots.
危险，因为杰森认为会有打斗、骚乱。
People would be hurt, possibly even die, he thinks.
他认为人们会受伤，甚至可能死亡。
And just so I'm clear here, yes, he means immigrants, but also officers.
我在这里要明确的是，是的，他指的是移民，但也指官员。
Jason's very concerned about the safety of the ICE officers.
杰森非常担心 ICE 官员的安全。
Where else can you hold people you want to deport?
还有哪里可以关押想要驱逐的人？
Can you house migrants in jails?
你能把移民关进监狱吗？
Yes.
是的。
Nadia Reiman Could you lower jailing standards to put more people in a cell?
纳迪亚·雷曼（Nadia Reiman）能否降低监禁标准以将更多人关进牢房？
Yes.
是的。
Well, yes, absolutely.
嗯，是的，绝对是。
Nadia Reiman Right.
纳迪亚·雷曼 对。
But yes.
但是是的。
Nadia Reiman Like, I'm saying, could you-- our standard before was three people per cell, and now, we're saying it's six.
纳迪亚·雷曼（Nadia Reiman）：我是说，我们以前的标准是每个牢房三个人，现在我们说是六个人。
That is policy.
那就是政策。
It is not law.
这不是法律。
So yes, of course you could.
所以是的，当然可以。
OK.
好的。
Could you turn places quickly into detention centers or camps?
你能迅速把这些地方变成拘留中心或营地吗？
Like, can you change the standards to make it faster?
比如，你能改变标准以使其更快吗？
Yes.
是的。
I could have-- between FEMA and ICE and DHS, we could turn on 25 old warehouses, old department stores in a week.
我可以——在 FEMA、ICE 和 DHS 之间，我们可以在一周内启用 25 个旧仓库、旧百货商店。
So definitely doable in the first 100 days.
所以在前 100 天内绝对可行。
--it would just be a cement building with some mats.
——它只是一座水泥建筑，上面有一些垫子。
And then I make sure we have porta-potties, some food.
然后我确保我们有便盆和一些食物。
I have a couple docs there in case somebody gets really sick.
我那里有几个医生，以防有人病得很重。
And then I bring in a couple hundred security guards.
然后我带来了几百名保安。
I could do that in a week.
我可以在一周内做到这一点。
At the end of the 100 days, how many people do you think will be gone?
100 天结束时，您认为有多少人会消失？
Let's just say this.
就这么说吧。
Let's say all rules are out the-- and I can remove people that aren't removable.
假设所有规则都已取消，我可以删除无法删除的人员。
Like, I'm going to send them to third-party countries.
就像，我要把它们发送到第三方国家。
ICE has 48,000 people in its custody now.
ICE 目前已拘留 48,000 人。
ICE has 14 ICE planes that are hardened planes.
ICE有14个ICE平面，都是硬化平面。
They hold 135-- 135 souls.
他们拥有135——135个灵魂。
I need more of those.
我需要更多这样的东西。
But while I'm sending those 48,000, I'm probably going to go out and bring another 50,000 to 100,000 into custody.
但在我遣送这 48,000 人的同时，我可能会出去拘留另外 50,000 到 100,000 人。
So if you're talking 30 to 60 days, you could remove 150,000 to 200,000 people.
因此，如果你说的是 30 到 60 天，你就可以减少 150,000 到 200,000 人。
Yeah.
是的。
Nadia Reiman So in the first 100, that puts you at what, how many?
Nadia Reiman 那么，在前 100 名中，您的排名是多少？
If all rules are gone and I can remove them anywhere, you could do a million.
如果所有规则都消失了并且我可以在任何地方删除它们，那么你可以做一百万。
A million people.
一百万人。
Of course, Jason's predicting here, assuming there will be no major roadblocks.
当然，杰森在这里进行的预测是假设不会出现重大障碍。
But the Brennan Center did this thing where they stress tested with experts and government people whether mass deportations could be done, gamed this all out.
但布伦南中心做了这件事，他们与专家和政府人员一起对是否可以进行大规模驱逐进行压力测试，并全力以赴。
In their simulations, funding was a big obstacle right away, so their deportation numbers weren't as large as Jason's.
在他们的模拟中，资金立即成为一个大障碍，因此他们的驱逐人数没有杰森的那么多。
But that was also assuming that the House wouldn't go Republican, which is looking like it will be as I record this.
但这也是假设众议院不会支持共和党，而在我记录此事时，情况看起来会是这样。
That would make Jason's math of a million people more possible.
这将使杰森关于一百万人的数学变得更有可能。
And when a million people disappear from the country, it's more than just bodies gone.
当一百万人从这个国家消失时，消失的不仅仅是尸体。
There's ripple effects.
有连锁反应。
One, we'll see massive inflation continue in this country, because we just pulled a million people out of our workforce-- GDP, businesses, small business especially.
第一，我们将看到这个国家继续出现大规模通货膨胀，因为我们刚刚从劳动力队伍中撤出了一百万人——GDP、企业，尤其是小企业。
And then we'll see thousands of people losing their jobs and small businesses closing, et cetera.
然后我们将看到成千上万的人失业，小企业倒闭等等。
Two, law enforcement activity-- federal specifically, and in cities and states where state and local law enforcement is supporting this mass deportation program-- will halt.
第二，执法活动——特别是联邦执法活动，以及州和地方执法部门支持大规模驱逐计划的城市和州——将停止。
Halt.
停止。
Going out and arresting the rapist and murderer in your county will stop while your sheriff is over playing grabass with Homan and these individuals and trying to do some big mass deportation scheme and throwing Grandma back to Cuba.
当你的警长不再与霍曼和这些人打交道，并试图实施一些大规模的大规模驱逐计划并将祖母扔回古巴时，你的县里出去逮捕强奸犯和杀人犯的行动将会停止。
So law enforcement will be chilled.
所以执法部门会感到冷淡。
Three, migrants will go deeper into the shadows.
第三，移民将陷入更深的阴影。
They will do the steps they need to stay in our country, because it's so much better than going back and risking death in another that they will hide even more into the shadows.
他们将采取必要的措施留在我们的国家，因为这比回到另一个国家冒着死亡的风险要好得多，因此他们会更加隐藏在阴影中。
And so those that are left behind, it's like they become ghosts.
所以那些留下来的人，就好像变成了鬼魂。
They might stop showing up to work.
他们可能会不再去上班。
Maybe they'll move.
也许他们会搬家。
You'll notice them missing-- at your local grocery store, your bar, your daycare.
你会发现它们不见了——在你当地的杂货店、你的酒吧、你的日托中心。
And at the same time, your screens will be broadcasting the deportations on TV, on social media, shouting the images of a million who are actually gone.
与此同时，你们的屏幕将在电视、社交媒体上播放驱逐出境的情况，大声喊出一百万人实际上已经离开的画面。
Jason thinks this will be strategic.
杰森认为这将具有战略意义。
I think there's going to be lined-up planes, engines-running imagery of mass removals.
我认为将会出现排成一排的飞机、引擎运转的大规模清除图像。
I think they're going to grab people and intentionally break our policy, like, break the law and throw some people back to their home country.
我认为他们会抓人并故意违反我们的政策，例如违反法律并将一些人赶回自己的祖国。
And then when the courts push back, they can be like, see, the courts made us stop.
然后当法院反击时，他们可能会说，看，法院让我们停下来。
Because then they can go, hey, look at these bureaucratic pencil necks getting in our way.
因为这样他们就可以走了，嘿，看看这些官僚主义的铅笔脖子妨碍了我们。
This is the deep state.
这就是深层状态。
This is the deep state.
这就是深层状态。
I guess my thing is, to what end, though?
我想我的目的是，但目的是什么？
Winning the midterms.
赢得中期选举。
Nadia Reiman You think it's all political?
纳迪亚·雷曼（Nadia Reiman） 你认为这都是政治性的吗？
You don't think there's any ideological thing that he wants out of it?
你不认为他想从中得到任何意识形态的东西吗？
Sure, I think he's ill-equipped.
当然，我认为他的装备很差。
But there's 8 million just on the immigration docket now.
但现在移民名单上只有 800 万人。
How many people have status here and are first-generation migrants, or from migrant families?
有多少人在这里有地位，是第一代农民工，或者来自农民工家庭？
I mean, we're talking-- this would affect, like, 50 million to 100 million people, these sort of actions.
我的意思是，我们正在讨论——这会影响 5000 万到 1 亿人，诸如此类的行为。
The idea that there isn't political consequences to that, even for Donald Trump-- I think the pendulum would swing back.
即使对于唐纳德·特朗普来说，这也不会有政治后果——我认为钟摆会向后摆动。
I'm not so sure.
我不太确定。
I think it's way harder for the pendulum to swing back.
我认为钟摆想要向后摆动要困难得多。
If you look at the Democrats' immigration platform, what you see is the border bill that Biden tried to pass.
如果你看一下民主党的移民纲领，你会看到拜登试图通过的边境法案。
That bill is the most restrictive immigration bill we've seen in years.
该法案是我们多年来见过的最严格的移民法案。
It's a child born out of the Trump administration but also parented by the Democrats, making a harsh agenda seem way more middle of the road.
这是特朗普政府诞生的一个孩子，但也是民主党养育的，这使得严厉的议程看起来更加中间路线。
Think piece after think piece uses this failed bill as an example of how far to the right we've moved on immigration, how much enforcement and severity have taken over, how much the idea of a nation of immigrants is dusty and Pollyanna-ish.
一次又一次的思考都用这个失败的法案作为例子，说明我们在移民问题上已经向右转了多远，执行力度和严厉程度有多大，移民国家的想法有多少是尘土飞扬和盲目乐观的。
This fall, a Brookings poll said that about a third of Americans agree with Trump's quote, that undocumented immigrants are poisoning the blood of the country-- "poisoning the blood."
今年秋天，布鲁金斯学会的一项民意调查显示，大约三分之一的美国人同意特朗普的说法，即无证移民正在毒害这个国家的血液——“毒害血液”。
This phrase chills me.
这句话让我不寒而栗。
It's not about legality or order.
这与合法性或秩序无关。
It's visceral.
这是发自内心的。
It's guttural repulsion.
这是喉咙里的排斥。
It is a violent feeling about a massive group of people.
对于一大群人来说，这是一种暴力的感觉。
And when the President is the one that leads it, it's not just a feeling anymore.
当总统成为领导者时，这不再只是一种感觉。
It becomes an action.
它变成了一个动作。
Nadia Reiman.
纳迪亚·雷曼。
She's an editor on our show.
她是我们节目的编辑。
Two days after the election, two of our producers, Emmanuel Dzotsi and Lilly Sullivan, went to this church near her office in New York City where, on certain days, there are migrants and asylum seekers getting free legal advice and meals.
选举两天后，我们的两位制片人伊曼纽尔·佐西 (Emmanuel Dzotsi) 和莉莉·沙利文 (Lilly Sullivan) 来到纽约市她办公室附近的这座教堂，在某些日子里，移民和寻求庇护者会在那里获得免费的法律咨询和膳食。
And they met this guy, Roberto, who told him that he arrived in the US five months ago from Ecuador.
他们遇到了这个人，罗伯托，他告诉他，他五个月前从厄瓜多尔抵达美国。
And he's been having trouble sleeping ever since Election Day.
从选举日起他就一直难以入睡。
Lilly now joins me in the studio.
莉莉现在和我一起去工作室。
Hey, Lilly.
嘿，莉莉。
Hey, Ira.
嘿，艾拉。
Ira Glass So you spoke with him.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）所以你和他谈过了。
Yeah.
是的。
He's been staying in a shelter nearby.
他一直住在附近的避难所里。
And he says he can already picture it, what the ICE raids there would be like.
他说他已经可以想象 ICE 的突袭行动会是什么样子。
He says, let me describe it like a movie.
他说，让我像电影一样描述它。
He pictures a group of 100, 200 men arriving, who'd lock up the building and go floor to floor.
他想象着一群 100 到 200 人到达，他们会锁上大楼并逐层巡视。
And they'd load them up into buses or cars or whatever ICE uses and deport them.
他们会把他们装上公共汽车、汽车或 ICE 使用的任何东西，然后将他们驱逐出境。
Like, that's what you hear about.
就像，这就是你听到的。
So that's what he imagines about how it might go.
这就是他对事情可能如何发展的想象。
On the streets, he feels a little freer, he told me, because if someone tried to grab him, he could just run.
他告诉我，在街上，他感觉更自由了，因为如果有人试图抓住他，他就可以逃跑。
He'd have that option.
他会有这样的选择。
But in the shelter, he's between four walls.
但在避难所里，他位于四堵墙之间。
There's nowhere to run.
无处可逃。
I asked him, where do you feel safe?
我问他，你觉得哪里安全？
He told me, here, in the church where I talked to him.
他在这里告诉我，在我和他交谈的教堂里。
There's no other place where he can feel calm.
没有其他地方能让他感到平静。
Because he tells me, ICE can't come into the church.
因为他告诉我，ICE 不能进入教堂。
Though, of course, in President Trump's next term, that might not be true.
当然，在特朗普总统的下一个任期内，情况可能并非如此。
Yeah.
是的。
We have this idea of sanctuary spaces.
我们有庇护空间的想法。
But anytime ICE decides they want to go into churches or hospitals or schools, they can do that.
但只要 ICE 决定进入教堂、医院或学校，他们就可以这样做。
Act Two: Nobody Loves Our Latino Community and our Puerto Rican Community More Than I Do Ira Glass Act Two, "Nobody Loves Our Latino Community and Our Puerto Rican Community More than I Do." So Donald Trump won record numbers of Latino voters this year, more than any Republican candidate since they started tracking that demographic in exit polls back in the 1970s.
第二幕：没有人比我更爱我们的拉丁裔社区和波多黎各社区 Ira Glass 第二幕，“没有人比我更爱我们的拉丁裔社区和波多黎各社区。”因此，唐纳德·特朗普今年赢得了创纪录数量的拉丁裔选民，超过了自 20 世纪 70 年代开始在出口民意调查中追踪拉丁裔选民以来的任何共和党候选人。
So how'd it happen?
那么这是怎么发生的呢？
Ike Sriskandarajah spent the day with a guy who's been gunning for this for years.
Ike Sriskandarajah 和一个多年来一直致力于此的人一起度过了一天。
I first met Sam Negron a few weeks ago outside a Trump rally in Allentown, Pennsylvania.
几周前，我第一次见到萨姆·内格伦是在宾夕法尼亚州阿伦敦的一次特朗普集会上。
He's waiting in the VIP line because, one, he's a constable.
他在贵宾队列中等候，因为，第一，他是一名警察。
That's like an elected sheriff.
这就像一个民选警长。
And, two, he volunteers a lot for the campaign-- knocks on doors, does phone calls, is something called a Trump Force Captain, and works with Latinos for Trump.
第二，他为竞选做了很多志愿者——挨家挨户敲门、打电话、担任特朗普部队队长，并为特朗普与拉丁裔合作。
It's nice to meet you.
很高兴认识你。
Sam.
萨姆.
Ike Sriskandarajah Ike.
艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾·艾克。
Sam?
萨姆？
I never had no cool nicknames like Pookie or Tito.
我从来没有过像 Pookie 或 Tito 这样很酷的昵称。
Sam's a proud Puerto Rican-- big guy, classic cop haircut.
山姆是一个自豪的波多黎各人——大块头，经典的警察发型。
And he gets personal fast.
而且他很快就变得个性化。
When I tell him Ike is my nickname, he says, we tend to do that in America-- shorten things.
当我告诉他艾克是我的昵称时，他说，在美国我们倾向于这样做——缩短事情。
Then he calls me his brother.
然后他叫我他哥哥。
Go ahead, brother.
继续吧，兄弟。
You should be recording this.
你应该把这个记录下来。
We're surrounded by long lines of Trump supporters who start chanting because they see a protest coming down the street.
我们周围是排着长队的特朗普支持者，他们开始高呼口号，因为他们看到街上有抗议活动。
It's maybe a couple dozen people waving Puerto Rican flags.
可能有几十人挥舞着波多黎各国旗。
They're with a Latinx social justice group here to protest the "island of garbage" comment that a comedian recently made at a Trump rally.
他们与一个拉丁裔社会正义团体一起抗议一名喜剧演员最近在特朗普集会上发表的“垃圾岛”言论。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ike Sriskandarajah A couple of Sam's friends from Latinos for Trump rush over.
[西班牙语] 艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾 (Ike Sriskandarajah) 山姆的几个拉美裔朋友冲了过来。
They're going to cross the street to go confront the anti-Trump protesters.
他们将过马路去对抗反特朗普的抗议者。
And they ask Sam to join.
他们邀请山姆加入。
He tells them, I don't like to fight.
他告诉他们，我不喜欢打架。
Let them speak.
让他们说话吧。
See, but what I don't like-- to do the combating thing.
瞧，但我不喜欢的是——做战斗的事情。
I didn't hear what they were saying, but--
我没听清他们在说什么，但是——
Another Trump supporter nearby, a white lady in a red shirt, is shouting over us at this whole scrum of Spanish speakers, not really differentiating between the Trump supporters and the Trump protesters.
附近的另一位特朗普支持者，一位身穿红衬衫的白人女士，正在对着这群讲西班牙语的人大喊大叫，并没有真正区分特朗普的支持者和特朗普的抗议者。
She says, they don't even speak English.
她说，他们甚至不会说英语。
Go back to your own fucking country.
滚回你自己的国家去吧。
Yeah.
是的。
See, that's not cool.
看，这并不酷。
Ike Sriskandarajah What do you do with that?
Ike Sriskandarajah 你用它做什么？
Things like that, it's not cool.
诸如此类的事情，一点也不酷。
But you know what?
但你知道吗？
I'm Puerto Rican, papi.
我是波多黎各人，爸爸。
I grew up in the South Bronx in the '70s.
我在 70 年代在南布朗克斯长大。
I've gotten racism from everybody.
我受到了所有人的种族歧视。
Because you see my color, right?
因为你看到了我的颜色，对吗？
I'm very light-skinned.
我皮肤很浅。
Growing up in the South Bronx wasn't easy in the '70s.
七十年代，在南布朗克斯长大并不容易。
It doesn't get under your skin, is what you're saying?
它不会深入你的皮肤，是你的意思吗？
No. So I tend to ignore that.
不，所以我倾向于忽略这一点。
You know what I found out working on this campaign?
你知道我在这次活动中发现了什么吗？
That is not the majority.
那不是大多数。
For most of his life, Sam supported Democrats.
萨姆一生的大部分时间都支持民主党。
But in 2016, he broke with the party, protest voted for Jill Stein.
但2016年，他与该党决裂，抗议投票支持吉尔·斯坦。
He got into Trump from videos shared by a Latino Trump supporter.
他通过一位拉丁裔特朗普支持者分享的视频了解了特朗普。
Then, just in the past two years, he lost both his son and his son-in-law.
然后，就在这两年里，他失去了儿子和女婿。
They overdosed on fentanyl.
他们过量服用芬太尼。
He says it's a big problem in Allentown.
他说这是阿伦敦的一个大问题。
And he felt like the Democrats and Biden weren't helping.
他觉得民主党和拜登没有提供帮助。
It made him want Trump back even more.
这让他更加希望特朗普回来。
So he started evangelizing, trying to convert people.
于是他开始传福音，试图改变人们的信仰。
He's got lit and signs-- Boricuas for Trump, Dominicans for Trump.
他点着了灯，标语牌——博里库亚斯代表特朗普，多米尼加人代表特朗普。
He's got these little scratch-offs for Trump.
他为特朗普准备了这些小刮刮卡。
It was lonely at first in this Democratic city, but slowly, it started to feel like it was working.
起初在这座民主城市很孤独，但慢慢地，它开始感觉它正在发挥作用。
He'd been stepping it up for months.
几个月来他一直在加紧努力。
And then "island of garbage" dropped on him.
然后“垃圾岛”落在了他身上。
I hear my wife going, look what just came out.
我听到我妻子走了，看看刚刚出来的是什么。
Look what they said.
看看他们怎么说。
She was furious.
她很生气。
It was hurtful because that's where they're from, but also frustrating, because he's been out here in these streets, trying to pull his people one by one towards Trump.
这很伤人，因为他们来自那里，但也令人沮丧，因为他一直在这些街道上，试图把他的人民一一拉向特朗普。
I was double upset because I'm like, one, that's an ugly joke.
我感到双重沮丧，因为我想，一，这是一个丑陋的笑话。
Two, there goes all the work I've done for the last four or five years.
第二，过去四五年来我所做的所有工作都消失了。
Did you think those comments might just cost him the whole election?
你是否认为这些言论可能会让他失去整个选举的机会？
Totally, brother.
完全可以，兄弟。
I said, oh, my god, there goes everything we've done-- [LAUGHS] right out the window.
我说，哦，天哪，我们所做的一切都消失了——[笑]就在窗外。
So how to reconcile all this, being a proud Puerto Rican and a die-hard Trump supporter?
那么，作为一个自豪的波多黎各人和一个顽固的特朗普支持者，如何调和这一切呢？
For Sam, it took 20 minutes of googling.
Sam 花了 20 分钟进行谷歌搜索。
Anytime something controversial comes out of that campaign, there's something else behind it.
每当该活动出现争议时，背后都有其他原因。
You know what I found out?
你知道我发现了什么吗？
Here's how he explains that there was actually a deeper message hidden inside that joke.
他是这样解释的：这个笑话中实际上隐藏着更深层次的信息。
Puerto Rico's drowning in trash.
波多黎各淹没在垃圾之中。
They haven't been able to get rid of their trash for the last four years.
过去四年来，他们一直没能处理掉垃圾。
There's 29 dump sites all over Puerto Rico that are mountains of trash because they can't burn because of carbon emissions.
波多黎各有 29 个垃圾场，垃圾堆积如山，因为它们因碳排放而无法燃烧。
And who did that?
谁干的？
Back four years ago, wasn't as bad-- it went way overboard four years ago.
四年前，情况还没有那么糟糕——四年前就太过分了。
So that's what I believe was the reference that was being made to.
所以我相信这就是所提到的内容。
20 minutes of research got Sam from livid about a potentially campaign-derailing bad joke to outrage at an environmental disaster he lays at the feet of the Biden administration.
20 分钟的研究让萨姆从对一个可能破坏竞选的坏笑话的愤怒，转变为对他归咎于拜登政府的环境灾难的愤怒。
If that sounds like opportunistic reasoning, Sam gets that.
如果这听起来像是机会主义推理，萨姆明白了。
Heck yeah, I needed a reason for it.
哎呀，是的，我需要一个理由。
Like I said, I--
就像我说的，我——
So he went on a mission, the weekend before the election, to do damage control, tell people what he learned and get them to vote for Trump.
因此，他在选举前的周末执行了一项任务，控制损失，告诉人们他所学到的知识，并让他们投票支持特朗普。
He also wanted to give people a chance to talk through the ways they felt let down by Democrats.
他还想让人们有机会谈论他们对民主党感到失望的方式。
I tagged along because I wanted to know if people would buy it.
我跟着一起是因为我想知道人们是否会购买它。
And part of what I heard helped me understand why Trump took a historic share of the Latino vote.
我所听到的部分内容帮助我理解了为什么特朗普在拉丁裔选票中获得了历史性的份额。
And the way Sam's doing it, he's not following an orderly list of registered R or independent voters.
山姆的做法并没有遵循注册选民或独立选民的有序名单。
He's going off-book.
他要脱离记录了。
Here, in the Supremo Grocery Store parking lot in the heart of a Latino neighborhood, it's a busy Sunday.
在拉丁裔社区中心的 Supremo 杂货店停车场，这是一个繁忙的周日。
There's a lot of shoppers, steady flow of people on the sidewalk.
购物的人很多，人行道上川流不息。
It's a target-rich environment.
这是一个目标丰富的环境。
[INAUDIBLE] Sam Negron Good, mami, how you doing?
[听不清] Sam Negron 好的，妈妈，你好吗？
You voting this year?
今年你投票了吗？
[INAUDIBLE] Sam Negron Come talk to me.
[听不清] Sam Negron 来跟我说话吧。
Come--
来吧——
Sam spots a Puerto Rican woman he knows pulling into the parking lot.
山姆发现一位他认识的波多黎各女人把车开进了停车场。
You're parking?
你在停车吗？
Go park.
去公园吧。
Come talk to me.
来跟我说话吧。
Right, that's the problem.
对了，这就是问题所在。
Ike Sriskandarajah Damned if I do, damned if I don't, she yells from the car.
艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾（Ike Sriskandarajah）：如果我这样做，那该死，如果我不这样做，那该死，她在车里喊道。
This is Melissa.
这是梅丽莎。
Sam and her clearly go back.
萨姆和她显然回去了。
But he says he doesn't know how she's going to vote.
但他说他不知道她将如何投票。
Don't do it.
不要这样做。
I've got a bad filter right now.
我现在的过滤器坏了。
That's all right.
没关系。
No. Melissa So [INAUDIBLE].
不，Melissa So [听不清]。
How you feeling right now?
你现在感觉怎么样？
Melissa Upset.
梅丽莎心烦意乱。
What I'm upset is that I'm a taxpayer and I don't get shit.
我感到不安的是，我是纳税人，我不明白。
And you've got other people that come into our country, and they give them everything.
还有其他人来到我们国家，他们给了他们一切。
But then you want to sit here and want to downgrade Spanish people.
但你却想坐在这里并想降低西班牙人的等级。
Make that shit make sense.
让这狗屎有意义。
She's upset about Democrats giving support to new arrivals in the country instead of focusing on the people already here, people like herself.
她对民主党人支持新来者而不是关注已经在这里的人（像她这样的人）感到不安。
She also doesn't tolerate insults against Spanish-speaking people.
她也不能容忍对西班牙语人的侮辱。
So she doesn't like her options.
所以她不喜欢她的选择。
Can we talk about Sunday, a week ago at the Garden?
我们可以谈谈一周前在花园的周日吗？
The joke the comedian made about the island of garbage?
喜剧演员关于垃圾岛的笑话？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Sam Negron OK.
萨姆·内格伦 好的。
How you feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
How you feel about it?
你对此感觉如何？
Sam Negron I was livid.
萨姆·内格伦我很生气。
I told this man--
我告诉这个人——
Sam walks her through how he figured out the island of garbage comment is actually a sneaky PSA about landfill mismanagement.
萨姆向她讲述了他是如何发现垃圾岛评论实际上是关于垃圾填埋场管理不善的鬼祟公益广告的。
Melissa listens.
梅丽莎听着。
--four years ago.
——四年前。
So that's what I believe was the reference that was being made to.
所以我相信这就是所提到的内容。
How does that sit with you?
你觉得怎么样？
Sam Negron I could show you.
萨姆·内格伦 我可以给你看。
[INAUDIBLE].
[听不清]。
That's facts.
这是事实。
That's what you call facts.
这就是你所说的事实。
But again, everybody's so much into their social media, their social media only portrays one side of each story.
但同样，每个人都非常热衷于他们的社交媒体，他们的社交媒体只描绘了每个故事的一方面。
You understand what I mean?
你明白我的意思吗？
So if you sit here and you analyze both sides of the stories-- like I said earlier in my car, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
所以，如果你坐在这里分析故事的两面——就像我之前在车里说的那样，如果你这样做也该死，如果你不这样做也该死。
You understand what I mean?
你明白我的意思吗？
Because here, we got-- our felons couldn't never vote, right?
因为在这里，我们的重罪犯不可能永远投票，对吧？
How come illegal immigrants are able to vote now?
为什么非法移民现在也能投票了？
Exactly.
确切地。
Why?
为什么？
Sam Negron Where does that put us?
萨姆·内格伦 这把我们置于何地？
Not true-- illegal immigrants can't vote.
事实并非如此——非法移民不能投票。
Where does that put us that been here all our lives?
这把我们一生都在这里的人置于何处？
And that's a right.
这是一项权利。
That's a citizenship right.
这是公民权利。
That's not a human right.
这不是人权。
That's a citizenship right.
这是公民权利。
You want to vote, go back to your country and vote-- not in a bad way, not meaning that you should go back to your country.
你想要投票，回到你的国家并投票——不是以一种不好的方式，并不意味着你应该回到你的国家。
But you know what?
但你知道吗？
Get in line and wait like everybody else.
像其他人一样排队等待。
Because there's been a lot of illegal immigrants in this country that have been here for years still waiting for their papers, thousands on lawyers--
因为这个国家有很多非法移民，他们已经在这里等待他们的文件很多年了，还有成千上万的律师——
--and can't even vote-- Sam Negron --[INAUDIBLE].
--甚至不能投票-- Sam Negron --[听不清]。
--and can't even vote.
——甚至不能投票。
And pay their taxes-- and pay their taxes.
并缴纳他们的税款——并缴纳他们的税款。
Yes.
是的。
Ike Sriskandarajah The backdrop here is that Sam and Melissa are Puerto Rican.
Ike Sriskandarajah 这里的背景是 Sam 和 Melissa 是波多黎各人。
They're already citizens who can vote if they live on the mainland.
如果他们居住在大陆，他们已经是可以投票的公民。
They don't have to wait in any sort of line.
他们不必排队等候。
--given up everything.
——放弃一切。
Ike Sriskandarajah Eight years ago, Melissa supported Hillary.
Ike Sriskandarajah 八年前，梅丽莎支持希拉里。
She says Bill Clinton was a hell of a president.
她说比尔·克林顿是一位非常出色的总统。
Now, she likes Trump, in spite of the comment.
现在，尽管有这样的评论，她还是喜欢特朗普。
Was I in the same boat a couple of years ago?
几年前我也经历过同样的事情吗？
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
I wanted him out.
我想让他出去。
I didn't want to keep dealing with that.
我不想继续处理这个问题。
You understand what I mean?
你明白我的意思吗？
Great businessman.
伟大的商人。
Right, which [INAUDIBLE].
是的，[听不清]。
Melissa Great businessman.
梅丽莎 伟大的商人。
What fucked him up was his filter and how he speaks to people--
让他操蛋的是他的过滤器以及他与人交谈的方式——
Coming from somebody-- Melissa --you understand what I mean?
来自某人——梅丽莎——你明白我的意思吗？
--who ain't got no hair-- Melissa On my tongue.
——谁没有头发——梅丽莎在我的舌头上。
--on her tongue.
——在她的舌头上。
Melissa But let's be realistic here.
梅丽莎：但我们还是现实点吧。
The way he spoke in front of our kids-- you're the president.
他在我们孩子面前说话的方式——你是总统。
But he put it out there.
但他把它放在那里。
And again, me being a person who doesn't have no filter myself, I can understand that.
再说一遍，我自己是一个没有过滤器的人，我可以理解这一点。
But there's a time and a place for everything.
但凡事都有时间和地点。
But at this point, I'd rather go here than go there, because I don't want to get more digged in a hole than what I am now and get the same shit that I got for the past four years.
但在这一点上，我宁愿去这里，也不愿去那里，因为我不想比现在更加陷入困境，并得到与过去四年相同的狗屎。
Melissa ends the conversation by telling Sam she'll vote for Trump.
梅丽莎在谈话结束时告诉山姆她将投票给特朗普。
Sam approaches another Puerto Rican guy, a soft-spoken young man named Marcus, and asks him how he felt about the insult.
山姆走近另一个波多黎各人，一个名叫马库斯的说话温和的年轻人，问他对这种侮辱有何感想。
I think he said it was a-- do you guys know there's an island of garbage floating in the ocean?
我想他说的是——你们知道海洋里漂浮着一座垃圾岛吗？
I think it's called Puerto Rico.
我认为它叫波多黎各。
How'd that make you feel, papi?
这让你感觉如何，爸爸？
I mean, as a Puerto Rican, it made me feel like shit.
我的意思是，作为一个波多黎各人，这让我感觉很糟糕。
Right.
正确的。
Trust me.
相信我。
I was livid, bro.
我很生气，兄弟。
I was mad, bro.
我很生气，兄弟。
But what that did for me-- I went online and started looking up, is there a problem in Puerto Rico with any type of garbage or anything?
但这对我来说是——我上网并开始查找，波多黎各是否存在任何类型的垃圾或其他问题？
You know what I found out?
你知道我发现了什么吗？
Sam takes Marcus through his spiel, from livid to landfill-- seems like it's sinking in.
山姆带领马库斯讲述了他的长篇大论，从愤怒到垃圾填埋——似乎已经被理解了。
They talk more about the price of eggs, which is smart, given Marcus just left the grocery store.
他们更多地谈论鸡蛋的价格，考虑到马库斯刚刚离开杂货店，这是明智的。
And after Sam finishes, I asked Marcus how he feels about Sam's explanation about the island of garbage.
萨姆说完后，我问马库斯他对萨姆关于垃圾岛的解释有何感想。
When I first heard it, I was appalled that our leadership could speak so disgustingly about us that way.
当我第一次听到这个消息时，我感到震惊，我们的领导层竟然可以这样令人厌恶地谈论我们。
And even as he was just mentioning it right now, it's just-- it's disgusting.
即使他现在刚刚提到这件事，这也只是——这太恶心了。
He's still pissed about the comment, but he was planning to vote for Trump anyway.
他仍然对这个评论感到愤怒，但无论如何他都计划投票给特朗普。
And Sam's explanation?
山姆的解释呢？
It just made it feel all the much better that there's a valuable explanation as to his comment, because that's who I'm leaning towards, is Trump.
对于他的评论有一个有价值的解释，这让我感觉好多了，因为这就是我所倾向的人，那就是特朗普。
So it feels very good to know that.
所以知道这一点感觉非常好。
The next guy, a Spanish speaker carrying a large bag of dog food, didn't even need to hear Sam's explanation.
下一个人是一个讲西班牙语的人，提着一大袋狗粮，甚至不需要听萨姆的解释。
He just wants to share his critique of the Democrats' failures.
他只是想分享他对民主党失败的批评。
Here's Jose.
这是何塞。
Jose is saying that neither party wants to fix immigration.
何塞表示，两党都不想解决移民问题。
Obama had two years to do something when the Democrats controlled the House and the Senate, and they didn't.
当民主党控制众议院和参议院时，奥巴马有两年时间做点什么，但他们没有。
He's voting for Trump too.
他也投票给特朗普。
The garbage joke, people can get past that.
垃圾笑话，人们可以克服它。
But what they can't get past is how Democrats have been letting them down in a bunch of different ways.
但他们无法忘记的是民主党如何以各种不同的方式让他们失望。
Sam is pleased.
萨姆很高兴。
I'm feeling a lot more positive than I was a couple of days ago.
我感觉比几天前积极多了。
And I'm glad that especially the Puerto Ricans that we did talk to were still going to support him regardless.
我很高兴尤其是与我们交谈过的波多黎各人无论如何仍然会支持他。
We all feel the same way.
我们都有同样的感觉。
We're mad about the comment.
我们对这个评论感到愤怒。
It upset us.
这让我们心烦意乱。
But it's policy over feelings, brother.
但这是政策而不是感情，兄弟。
You cleaned up today.
你今天打扫干净了。
Sam Negron I feel a lot better, brother, because I was worried.
萨姆·尼格隆 我感觉好多了，兄弟，因为我很担心。
I thought I was going to come out here and have to put on the boxing gloves and duke it out with people.
我以为我要来到这里，必须戴上拳击手套，与人们决斗。
And it hasn't been that at all.
但事实并非如此。
I don't think you've met-- Sam Negron Anti-Trumper.
我认为你没有见过——萨姆·内格伦反特朗普者。
--a Harris supporter.
——哈里斯的支持者。
Sam Negron Nope.
萨姆·内格伦 不。
And they're out here.
他们就在这里。
Sam did talk to one Harris supporter, a younger Dominican man.
萨姆确实与哈里斯的一位支持者进行了交谈，他是一位年轻的多米尼加男子。
The man says he can't vote.
该男子说他不能投票。
He'd like to become a citizen, vote someday.
他想成为一名公民，有一天投票。
Again, this is where a traditional canvasser would pivot.
同样，这也是传统游说者的重点。
That's not Sam.
那不是萨姆。
If he could vote, he'd vote for Kamala.
如果他可以投票，他会投票给卡马拉。
Hey, there's one.
嘿，有一个。
Now, this close to the election, campaigns are a numbers game of maximizing turnout of eligible, like-minded voters.
现在，选举临近，竞选活动变成了一场数字游戏，目的是最大限度地提高符合资格、志同道合的选民的投票率。
This guy is neither.
这家伙两者都不是。
The guy says he wants a change.
那个人说他想要改变。
Sam sees an opening-- a change from what?
萨姆看到了一个机会——什么变化？
Sam makes his pitch for Trump and asks him to think about it.
萨姆为特朗普辩护，并要求他考虑一下。
[LAUGHS] I left him thinking.
[笑]我让他思考。
He's almost flipped.
他几乎翻车了。
My whole mission is to wake people up in my community.
我的全部使命是唤醒社区中的人们。
To me, it's not about the vote.
对我来说，这与投票无关。
To me, it's about our people.
对我来说，这与我们的人民有关。
And that's the way I look at it.
这就是我的看法。
To Sam, it's the long game.
对萨姆来说，这是一场持久战。
This isn't just about the election that just happened.
这不仅仅是刚刚发生的选举。
It's about the next one and the next one and the one after that.
这是关于下一件、下一件、再下一件的事情。
Ike Sriskandarajah is a producer on our show.
艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾 (Ike Sriskandarajah) 是我们节目的制片人。
Coming up, all those people on Trump's enemies list who he's been calling for retribution against, are they packing their bags?
接下来，特朗普的敌人名单上那些他一直呼吁报复的人，他们都收拾行李了吗？
We check in with a couple.
我们和一对夫妇登记入住。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program-- "This is the Cake We Baked." Today, we have stories of people who have some special, personal investment in the outcome of this week's election, and we look at what's coming for them.
今天的节目——《这是我们烤的蛋糕》。今天，我们有一些人的故事，他们对本周的选举结果进行了一些特殊的个人投资，我们来看看他们会面临什么。
We have arrived at Act Three of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three, "Sometimes Revenge Can Be Justified." So in the final weeks of his campaign, Donald Trump only stepped up his threats of retribution against his political enemies, including saying he'd use the military to go after the enemy within.
第三幕，“有时复仇是合理的。”因此，在竞选的最后几周，唐纳德·特朗普只是加大了对政敌进行报复的威胁，包括表示他将动用军队追捕内部的敌人。
Two people who've been keeping an eye on these sorts of comments are Alexander and Rachel Vindman.
亚历山大·温德曼 (Alexander Vindman) 和雷切尔·温德曼 (Rachel Vindman) 是一直关注此类评论的两个人。
Alex is the army officer who officially reported what seemed like an improper phone call between President Trump and the president of Ukraine, which led to Trump's first impeachment trial.
亚历克斯是一名军官，他正式报告了特朗普总统与乌克兰总统之间看似不当的通话，这导致了特朗普的首次弹劾审判。
Rachel is his wife.
雷切尔是他的妻子。
Back in March, I visited them.
早在三月份，我就拜访了他们。
And they did not agree about what they were going to do if President Trump won another term and started taking revenge.
他们对于如果特朗普总统赢得连任并开始报复要做什么也没有达成一致。
Rachel said they should consider leaving the country if things got bad enough.
雷切尔说，如果事情变得足够糟糕，他们应该考虑离开这个国家。
Alex said he'd never consider that.
亚历克斯说他永远不会考虑这一点。
No, not possible.
不，不可能。
I think the fact is that I served a full military career to protect this country, and I'm not going to give it up.
我认为事实是我整个军旅生涯都是为了保护这个国家，我不会放弃。
My argument is, if Donald Trump is reelected, this will no longer be that country.
我的观点是，如果唐纳德·特朗普再次当选，这个国家将不再是那个国家。
This will be the place where that country was.
这将是那个国家所在的地方。
I want to be able to leave if I feel like that's what I need to, to protect mainly my daughter.
如果我觉得我需要离开，主要是为了保护我的女儿，我希望能够离开。
We were doing this interview in their living room.
我们是在他们的客厅里进行这次采访的。
And we were standing, because they hadn't bought furniture for it yet.
我们站着，因为他们还没有买家具。
They wanted to wait and see what the outcome of the election was going to be first.
他们想先等等看看选举结果如何。
For Alex, this was just prudence and saving money against an uncertain future.
对于亚历克斯来说，这只是谨慎的做法，是为了应对不确定的未来而省钱。
For Rachel, it was, maybe we'll have to leave this house.
对于雷切尔来说，也许我们必须离开这所房子。
When I reached out this week after the election, Alex didn't return my text to set up an interview, but Rachel was happy to talk.
当我在选举后本周联系时，亚历克斯没有回复我安排采访的短信，但雷切尔很乐意交谈。
She told me they did finally bite the bullet and buy furniture in those early days when Kamala Harris took over as the Democratic nominee.
她告诉我，当卡马拉·哈里斯 (Kamala Harris) 成为民主党候选人时，他们终于硬着头皮买了家具。
We have two sofas, and we have a coffee table and a side piece thing.
我们有两张沙发，还有一张咖啡桌和一个边饰。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But that's [INAUDIBLE].
但这是[听不清]。
We ordered it after all the buzz about her, and everyone was very excited.
在关于她的所有议论之后我们订购了它，每个人都非常兴奋。
And we were just like, we're going to stay here.
我们就想，我们要留在这里。
And I think we were very optimistic.
我认为我们非常乐观。
So--
所以——
In the months leading up to the election, Alex and Rachel have both been campaigning actively for Harris, speaking at fundraisers, that kind of thing.
在选举前的几个月里，亚历克斯和雷切尔都在积极为哈里斯竞选，在筹款活动上发表演讲，诸如此类。
Rachel says she's probably done three events a week for the last six weeks, on video or in person, in all seven swing states.
雷切尔说，在过去的六周里，她可能每周在所有七个摇摆州通过视频或亲自参加三场活动。
We'd had plans to talk on election night once the winner was clear.
我们原计划在选举之夜一旦胜出者确定就进行讨论。
But when I texted them, Rachel wrote back she didn't feel up to talking.
但当我给他们发短信时，雷切尔回信说她不想说话。
"I am freaking out," she said.
“我吓坏了，”她说。
When we got on the phone later in the week, I asked if their views had changed since we talked in March.
当我们本周晚些时候通电话时，我问自我们三月份谈话以来，他们的观点是否发生了变化。
Was it still that she would consider leaving the country and he wouldn't?
还是她会考虑离开这个国家而他不会？
Nothing is off the table, but I want to stay, because this is my country.
没有什么是不可能的，但我想留下来，因为这是我的国家。
And I think there's a possibility to continue to be here and to be part of the discussion and make a difference.
我认为有可能继续留在这里，参与讨论并做出改变。
Alex absolutely wants to stay.
亚历克斯绝对想留下来。
It's not even a question.
这甚至不是一个问题。
So maybe my decision is just based on his obstinance that it's a non-starter.
所以也许我的决定只是基于他的固执，认为这是不可能的。
So I have to bring myself around to that reality.
所以我必须让自己面对这个现实。
I thought of you guys in the last weeks of the campaign, when it seemed like Donald Trump was increasing his calls for retaliation and talking about going after the enemies within the country.
我在竞选的最后几周想起了你们，当时唐纳德·特朗普似乎越来越多地呼吁进行报复，并谈论追击国内的敌人。
What do the two of you think this is going to mean for you?
你们两个认为这对你们来说意味着什么？
Do you feel like you're going to be facing some sort of retaliation?
您是否觉得自己将面临某种报复？
Do you feel like it's just a complete open question?
您是否觉得这只是一个完全开放的问题？
Where are you on this?
你在哪里？
We have no idea.
我们不知道。
It will depend on signals from their actions.
这将取决于他们行动发出的信号。
That's the only way we'll know, is to see what they're doing.
这是我们了解的唯一方法，就是看看他们在做什么。
But there is this guy who has a retaliation list.
但有一个人有一份报复清单。
It's a long list.
这是一个很长的清单。
It's, like, 300, 350 people, something like that.
大概有 300 人、350 人之类的。
And Alex's name is on it.
亚历克斯的名字就在上面。
This is a list that was circulating on social media, put together by a Trump supporter, the people that he thinks deserve revenge.
这是社交媒体上流传的一份名单，由特朗普的支持者整理而成，他认为这些人应该复仇。
He has no affiliation with Trump.
他与特朗普没有任何关系。
There's no sign that anybody in Trump world listens to him.
没有迹象表明特朗普世界里有人听他的。
But seeing Alex's name there was alarming, a reminder of how visible Alex is as somebody who stood up to the president and how likely a target he is for the real people in power.
但在那里看到亚历克斯的名字令人震惊，这提醒人们亚历克斯作为一个勇敢地面对总统的人是多么引人注目，以及他多么有可能成为真正当权者的目标。
So that's a concern.
所以这是一个问题。
But are they going to retaliate against all of those people?
但他们会对所有这些人进行报复吗？
Will it be all at once, like Kristallnacht, or will it be over time?
是会像水晶之夜那样一次性发生，还是会随着时间的推移而发生？
And do we have time if that's the road they go down?
如果他们走的是这条路，我们还有时间吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Or will they just do it on January 20?
或者他们只会在 1 月 20 日这样做？
Yeah.
是的。
Rachel Vindman But we'll definitely be watching the indicators-- and a list of criteria to say if this, then this.
Rachel Vindman 但我们肯定会关注指标——以及一系列标准来判断是否是这样，那么是这样。
Some kind of places or inflection points, which is terrifying.
某种地方或者拐点，这是可怕的。
But we certainly haven't gotten to that point.
但我们当然还没有达到这一点。
Like everyone, we're trying to process all of this.
和每个人一样，我们正在努力处理所有这一切。
Can you name another one of the indicators that you're going to keep an eye on?
您能说出您要关注的另一项指标吗？
Let's say ramp up talks about retaliation, then yes.
假设加强有关报复的讨论，那么是的。
But maybe it was election rhetoric and that's not something that's going to come up.
但也许这是选举言论，这不会出现。
There are so many unknowns with Trump.
特朗普有很多未知数。
He says he's going to do a lot of things that he doesn't do.
他说他会做很多他没有做的事情。
They're going to keep an eye on his appointments, especially who he appoints as Secretary of Defense.
他们将密切关注他的任命，特别是他任命的国防部长。
Rachel pictures that retaliation against Alex could be as small as they try to take his retirement benefits, his health care, pension, or as big as they could put him on trial for his actions in the impeachment hearings.
雷切尔认为，对亚历克斯的报复可能小到他们试图拿走他的退休福利、医疗保健、养老金，也可能大到让他在弹劾听证会上接受审判。
She really doesn't know what to expect.
她真的不知道会发生什么。
My head says it'll probably be OK.
我的头脑说可能会好起来的。
My heart is very scared.
我的心很害怕。
But I don't want to live my life in fear.
但我不想生活在恐惧之中。
I don't want to live in my own country afraid when neither I nor my husband has done anything wrong.
当我和我的丈夫都没有做错任何事时，我不想生活在自己的国家。
Rachel Vindman.
雷切尔·温德曼。
We reached out to the other people we interviewed in March for the episode we did about possible retribution Donald Trump might take to see how concerned they are about what might happen to them now.
我们联系了三月份采访的其他人，了解他们对现在可能发生在自己身上的事情有多担心。
Former Trump aide Stephanie Grisham didn't return our calls.
特朗普前助手斯蒂芬妮·格里沙姆没有回复我们的电话。
Fred Wellman, who used to be at the Lincoln Project, said he was watching to see how things were going to unfold.
曾参与林肯项目的弗雷德·韦尔曼表示，他正在观察事情的发展。
And he's gaming out possible scenarios for what he might do.
他正在为他可能做的事情设想可能的场景。
Act Four, "I've Done an Unbelievable Job on the Abortion Question." So I think, as everybody knows at this point, Kamala Harris and the Democrats were betting that abortion rights would help put her over the top.
第四幕，“我在堕胎问题上做了令人难以置信的工作。”所以我认为，众所周知，卡马拉·哈里斯和民主党人押注堕胎权将帮助她登上顶峰。
And 10 different states had abortion rights measures on their ballots.
10 个不同的州的选票上有堕胎权措施。
Seven of those passed.
其中七个通过了。
And there was a very particular kind of TV ad that aired in many of those states, all with a very particular feeling and particular music, very similar language.
在许多州播放了一种非常特殊的电视广告，所有这些广告都有非常特殊的感觉、特殊的音乐和非常相似的语言。
In these ads, women whose lives have been put at risk from complications with their pregnancies told their stories to explain why abortion bans needed to be lifted.
在这些广告中，因怀孕并发症而面临生命危险的女性讲述了她们的故事，以解释为什么需要取消堕胎禁令。
One of our producers, Miki Meek, became interested in these commercials.
我们的制片人之一 Miki Meek 对这些广告产生了兴趣。
And this week, she checked in with a few of the people who appeared in them.
本周，她采访了其中出现的一些人。
Here's Miki.
这是米基。
Since Roe was struck down two years ago, I've been reporting on pregnant women and doctors in states with abortion bans.
自从两年前罗伊被推翻以来，我一直在报道禁止堕胎的州的孕妇和医生。
And I've noticed that it's almost always the same group of women, about 20 in all, being called on again and again to recount the worst moments of their lives in media interviews, in court cases, at their state legislatures, and in Congress.
我注意到，几乎总是同一群女性，总共大约 20 人，在媒体采访、法庭案件、州立法机构和国会中一次又一次地被要求讲述她们一生中最糟糕的时刻。
I don't love it, to be perfectly honest.
老实说，我不喜欢它。
I feel like it's really--
我感觉这真的是——
That's Kimberly Paseka, who was denied an abortion in Nebraska.
这就是金伯利·帕塞卡 (Kimberly Paseka)，她在内布拉斯加州被拒绝堕胎。
She shared her story in one of those ads.
她在其中一则广告中分享了她的故事。
It's disheartening that we are putting the toughest conversation on the people who are affected the most-- and having to relive that trauma and just relive the worst parts of their life to try and make change.
令人沮丧的是，我们正在对受影响最严重的人们进行最艰难的对话，并且不得不重温这种创伤，重温他们生活中最糟糕的部分，以尝试做出改变。
And even today, I'm sitting here, and I'm exhausted.
即使今天，我坐在这里，我也很疲惫。
It's like, how am I even standing here still?
就像，我怎么还站在这里？
The last two-plus months has just been exhausting.
这两个多月的时间实在是太累了。
And you see online and people are like, we have to keep fighting.
你在网上看到，人们都说，我们必须继续战斗。
And I'm like, I have been fighting.
我想，我一直在战斗。
Where have you been?
你去哪儿了？
Nebraska's abortion rights measure failed this week.
内布拉斯加州的堕胎权措施本周失败。
I actually-- I made the joke to my husband yesterday.
事实上，我昨天给我丈夫开了个玩笑。
I was like, all my new followers on Twitter are going to be so disappointed when I start just posting about basketball and football again.
我当时想，当我再次开始发布有关篮球和足球的帖子时，我在 Twitter 上的所有新粉丝都会非常失望。
[LAUGHTER] Until we resolve the issue, I feel like I'll always say something.
[笑声] 在我们解决问题之前，我觉得我总会说点什么。
But I am going to have to step away from it for a little bit, just for my sanity, I think.
但我想，为了保持理智，我必须暂时离开它。
I don't think I'll ever stop pushing how important the issue is, though, because until there aren't any bans, some woman's always going to be affected.
不过，我认为我永远不会停止强调这个问题的重要性，因为在没有任何禁令之前，总会有一些女性受到影响。
Some girl's going to be affected.
有些女孩会受到影响。
And I hate that for this country.
我讨厌这个国家。
Of all the ads I watched, Deborah Dorbert's really got to me.
在我看过的所有广告中，黛博拉·多伯特最打动我。
It was so emotional I almost couldn't finish it.
太激动了，我几乎无法完成它。
Debra's 34 years old and from Florida.
Debra 34 岁，来自佛罗里达州。
She's got a six-year-old son.
她有一个六岁的儿子。
Two years ago, she was 23 weeks pregnant with her second child when she went into her doctor's office for a routine scan and learned that her baby had a lethal and rare condition called Potter Syndrome.
两年前，她怀着第二个孩子已经怀孕 23 周，当时她去医生办公室进行例行扫描，发现她的孩子患有一种致命的罕见疾病，称为波特综合症。
He had no kidneys.
他没有肾脏。
His lungs weren't developing.
他的肺部没有发育。
If he survived birth, he wouldn't live long, maybe just minutes.
如果他能活下来，他也活不了多久，也许只有几分钟。
Her doctor recommended she terminate the pregnancy as soon as possible.
她的医生建议她尽快终止妊娠。
She was now at higher risk for preeclampsia, which could kill her.
她现在患先兆子痫的风险更高，这可能会杀死她。
Deborah agreed.
黛博拉同意了。
She also didn't want her baby to suffer.
她也不希望自己的孩子受苦。
But Florida had just banned all abortions after 15 weeks, with some rare and vague exceptions.
但佛罗里达州在 15 周后刚刚禁止所有堕胎，除了一些罕见和模糊的例外情况。
Deborah says the hospital told her that because her baby still had a heartbeat, they couldn't help her.
黛博拉说，医院告诉她，因为她的孩子还有心跳，所以他们无法帮助她。
They were actually wrong about this.
他们在这一点上其实是错误的。
Florida's law allows for abortions in cases where there's a lethal fetal anomaly up to 28 weeks.
佛罗里达州法律允许在 28 周以内出现致命胎儿异常的情况下堕胎。
But there's a lot of fear and confusion among doctors and hospitals in states with bans.
但在实施禁令的州，医生和医院存在很多恐惧和困惑。
So Deborah had to carry the baby to term, knowing all along he wouldn't survive.
因此黛博拉不得不怀着这个孩子足月，因为她一直知道他无法生存。
She and her husband named him Milo.
她和她的丈夫给他起名叫米洛。
He lived for 94 minutes.
他活了94分钟。
Deborah's husband told me he didn't expect her to speak publicly, seemed out of character.
黛博拉的丈夫告诉我，他没想到她会公开讲话，这似乎不符合她的性格。
And it felt that way to her too.
她也有这种感觉。
Deborah describes herself as shy, reserved, conflict-averse.
黛博拉形容自己害羞、保守、厌恶冲突。
But while she was still pregnant with Milo, she was so angry and depressed that she decided to talk to a reporter from the Washington Post.
但当她还怀着米洛时，她感到非常愤怒和沮丧，以至于她决定接受《华盛顿邮报》的记者采访。
And after she gave birth, she decided to keep talking.
生完孩子后，她决定继续说话。
Is there a specific conversation or interaction you had with someone where you realized, I did change their opinion about Florida's abortion law?
您是否与某人进行过特定的对话或互动，使您意识到我确实改变了他们对佛罗里达州堕胎法的看法？
My parents.
我的父母。
My parents, they are very conservative people.
我的父母，他们是非常保守的人。
And it was my dad, having witnessed what I went through when-- he found out the news, and then he found out that I could not get induced and I was being forced to carry to full term.
那是我的父亲，目睹了我所经历的一切，当他发现这个消息时，然后他发现我无法引产，我被迫足月出生。
And he had to watch his daughter suffer for months, and he didn't understand why I could not get the care I needed.
他不得不看着他的女儿受苦几个月，他不明白为什么我不能得到我需要的照顾。
Her parents are Catholic, and before this, they were against abortion.
她的父母都是天主教徒，在此之前，他们反对堕胎。
But seeing her experience up close changed them.
但近距离目睹她的经历改变了他们。
So when the organizers of the ballot measure in Florida approached her to do a TV ad, she said yes.
因此，当佛罗里达州投票措施的组织者找到她制作电视广告时，她答应了。
The measure would put abortion rights into the state constitution.
该措施将把堕胎权写入州宪法。
I remember the doctor handing me a baby boy that was blue, and I just held him because he was so cold.
我记得医生递给我一个蓝色的男婴，我只是抱着他，因为他太冷了。
In the ad, Deborah is sitting on a couch in a green dress.
广告中，黛博拉穿着绿色连衣裙坐在沙发上。
Her husband, Lee, is right next to her, his arm wrapped around her.
她的丈夫李就在她旁边，手臂搂着她。
Government had no right to do that to my family.
政府无权对我的家人这样做。
This ban is torture.
这个禁令就是酷刑。
Governor DeSantis fought the abortion measure hard.
德桑蒂斯州长强烈反对堕胎措施。
He sent plainclothes police to knock on doors looking for fraudulent signatures on the petition for the ballot measure.
他派便衣警察挨家挨户寻找投票措施请愿书上的欺诈签名。
The Florida Health Department sent cease and desist letters to TV stations, airing a different ad that supported the measure.
佛罗里达州卫生部向电视台发出了停止函，并播放了支持该措施的另一则广告。
A judge siding with the TV stations wrote, "To keep it simple for the state of Florida, it's the First Amendment, stupid."
一位站在电视台一边的法官写道：“为了让佛罗里达州简单起见，这是第一修正案，愚蠢的。”
On election night.
在选举之夜。
Deborah and her husband headed to a watch party with organizers of the ballot measure, a group called Yes on 4.
黛博拉和她的丈夫于 4 日前往投票措施组织者的观看派对，该组织名为“Yes”。
There were balloons everywhere, a full bar.
到处都是气球，一个完整的酒吧。
Deborah felt hopeful and had a speech prepared if the measure got passed.
黛博拉感到充满希望，并准备了如果该措施获得通过的话演讲。
Ever since Roe was overturned, whenever voters got a chance to vote on abortion measures like this one, they passed, even in red states.
自从罗伊法案被推翻以来，每当选民有机会就这样的堕胎措施进行投票时，他们都会通过，即使是在红州。
Around 9:00 PM, the results were in.
晚上9:00左右，结果出来了。
A clear majority of Floridians voted in favor of the ballot initiative, but it still failed because in Florida, ballot measures need 60% of the vote to pass.
绝大多数佛罗里达人对投票倡议投了赞成票，但它仍然失败了，因为在佛罗里达州，投票措施需要60%的选票才能通过。
It got 57%.
达到了57%。
We were upstairs in a private little room, just waiting for the results.
我们在楼上的一个私人小房间里，等待结果。
And once they told me that Yes on 4 failed, it was just-- honestly, it was a shock.
当他们告诉我 Yes on 4 失败时，老实说，我感到很震惊。
It was like a punch in the stomach, and it just brought me back to that day in the doctor's office.
这就像肚子上挨了一记重拳，让我回想起那天在医生办公室里的情景。
And it was just that shock and that numb.
就是那种震惊和麻木。
We did go downstairs to hear the director speak.
我们确实下楼听导演讲话。
And after she spoke and a few other guests spoke, I remember getting up out of the room and going outside.
在她和其他几位客人发言后，我记得起身走出房间，走到外面。
And that is when I just broke down crying.
就在那时我哭了。
And my husband came and found me.
我丈夫来找我了。
And I was on my knees and crying because it just-- the law took everything from me.
我跪下哭泣，因为法律夺走了我的一切。
It's one thing to decide to tell this painful story over and over, but it's another thing to do it and not get the results you wanted.
决定一遍又一遍地讲述这个痛苦的故事是一回事，但这样做却得不到你想要的结果则是另一回事。
It's hard.
这很难。
You feel like a lot of weight is on your shoulders to try to get the government and legislation to understand, like, look what these laws are doing.
你觉得你肩上的担子很重，试图让政府和立法机构理解，比如，看看这些法律在做什么。
I do feel tired.
我确实感觉很累。
Just sharing my story is a lot of work.
仅分享我的故事就需要大量工作。
Do you ever have the feeling of, when can I be done and stop talking about this?
你有没有想过，我什么时候才能结束并停止谈论这件事？
So yesterday, we spent a lot of time navigating, do we keep fighting this fight or do we just step away?
所以昨天，我们花了很多时间来思考，我们是继续这场战斗，还是只是走开？
And for me, I'm up on the fence.
对我来说，我处于观望状态。
I don't want to back down now.
我现在不想退缩。
I want to see through that the law gets changed.
我想彻底改变法律。
What people don't see when Deborah tells her story in public is how hard she's still trying to get back to real life, just enjoy small moments again-- karate classes on Thursdays, pizza night on Fridays with her husband and her six-year-old son.
当黛博拉在公共场合讲述她的故事时，人们没有看到的是，她仍然在努力回到现实生活，只是再次享受短暂的时光——周四的空手道课，周五与丈夫和六岁儿子的披萨之夜。
["MORNING IN AMERICA" BY DURAND JONES & THE INDICATIONS]
[杜兰德·琼斯的《美国的早晨》及其适应症]
Well, our show today was produced and edited by Laura Starcheski and Emanuele Berry.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Laura Starcheski 和 Emanuele Berry 制作和编辑的。
The people who put together today's program include Bim Adewunmi, Phia Bennin, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Emmanuel Dzotsi, Hany Hawasly, Valerie Kipnis, Henry Larson, Seth Lind, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson.
今天节目的制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、Phia Bennin、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Emmanuel Dzotsi、Hany Hawasly、Valerie Kipnis、Henry Larson、Seth Lind、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson。
Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Alix Spiegel, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu.
瑞安·鲁默里、艾丽莎·希普、阿利克斯·斯皮格尔、莉莉·沙利文、克里斯托弗·斯维塔拉、玛丽莎·罗伯逊-特克斯特、马特·蒂尔尼和黛安·吴。
Our managing editor's Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑莎拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor's David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑 David Kestenbaum。
Special thanks today to Andrea Flores, Aaron Reichlin-Melnick, Jonathan Blitzer, Miriam Rosenbaum, Colin Jackson, Jon Smith, Patrice Johnson, Fields Moseley, Jen Fifield, Ben Giles, Yvonne Wingette-Sanchez, Ben Terris, Neil Makhija, Rebecca Tyrrell, Drew Reisinger, Kathie Kline, Paul Choi, Jordan Green, Lee Dorbert, Adama Bah, and Candice Braun and Power Malu of Artists Athletes Activists in New York City.
今天特别感谢 Andrea Flores、Aaron Reichlin-Melnick、Jonathan Blitzer、Miriam Rosenbaum、Colin Jackson、Jon Smith、Patrice Johnson、Fields Moseley、Jen Fifield、Ben Giles、Yvonne Wingette-Sanchez、Ben Terris、Neil Makhija、Rebecca Tyrrell、Drew Reisinger、Kathie Kline、Paul Choi、Jordan Green、Lee Dorbert、Adama Bah、纽约市艺术家运动员活动家 Candice Braun 和 Power Malu。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
To become a This American Life Partner and get bonus content, ad-free listening, ask me anything sessions, and a greatest-hits archive of hundreds of favorite episodes right in your podcast feed, sign up at thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.
要成为 This American Life 合作伙伴并获得奖励内容、无广告收听、询问我任何内容以及播客提要中数百个最喜爱剧集的精选档案，请在 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners 注册。
Thanks this week to Life Partners Kira Elert, Rachael MacFarlane, Martha Stroud, and Lauren Talerman.
本周感谢生活伙伴 Kira Elert、Rachael MacFarlane、Martha Stroud 和 Lauren Talerman。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he is such an annoying person to meditate with, seriously.
你知道，说真的，和他一起冥想是一个很烦人的人。
Every time we're finally into it and have quieted our minds, he starts chanting super loudly--
每当我们终于投入其中并平静下来时，他就开始大声念叨——
This is the deep state.
这就是深层状态。
This is the deep state.
这就是深层状态。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
["MORNING IN AMERICA" BY DURAND JONES & THE INDICATIONS]
[杜兰德·琼斯的《美国的早晨》及其适应症]
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。