845: A Small Thing That Gives Me a Tiny Shred of Hope - This American Life

845：一件小事给我带来一丝希望

845 · This American Life · 原文

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #845 | November 1, 2024 845: A Small Thing That Gives Me a Tiny Shred of Hope Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录分享此美国生活生活伙伴如何收听剧集推荐关于概述员工公告奖学金工作音乐在路上制作电台常见问题解答提交商品联系我们我们的其他节目商品关注我们生活伙伴订阅我们的时事通讯整集切换音频和文字记录同步文字记录 | 内容第 845 集 | 2024 年 11 月 1 日 845：一件小事给了我一丝希望注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass OK, this isn't news to anybody.

序言：序言 Ira Glass 好吧，这对任何人来说都不是什么新闻。

Our country is profoundly, cataclysmically divided, disagreeing about so many basic things-- the COVID vaccine, was the last election stolen, was January 6 an insurrection, or as they called it on Tucker Carlson's show, a grandma selfie party?

我们的国家存在深刻的、灾难性的分裂，在许多基本问题上存在分歧——新冠疫苗、上次选举是否被盗、1 月 6 日是否是一场叛乱，或者正如他们在塔克·卡尔森的节目中所说的那样，是一场奶奶自拍派对？

It's two different visions of reality that seem doomed to never reconcile.

这是两种不同的现实愿景，似乎注定永远无法调和。

[BREATHING DEEPLY] And maybe this is an inappropriate comparison, but somehow, this comes to mind for me.

[深呼吸]也许这是一个不恰当的比较，但不知何故，我想到了这一点。

You know that thing in your personal life where you get into a serious fight with somebody who you really care about?

你知道在你的个人生活中，你会和你真正关心的人发生严重的争吵吗？

And they see it one way, and you see it another way, and you're not seeing eye to eye.

他们以一种方式看待它，而你以另一种方式看待它，而且你们的看法不一致。

The best outcome, the thing you hope for, is that by talking it through and really listening to each other and trying to sort it out, in the end, you'll either see it the same way, you'll have the same story, or-- this is almost as good-- you won't agree on what happened, but at least you'll get where the other person's coming from and they'll get where you're coming from.

最好的结果，你希望的事情，是通过讨论，真正倾听对方并试图解决问题，最后，你们要么以同样的方式看待它，你们会有同样的故事，要么——这几乎一样好——你们不会同意所发生的事情，但至少你会明白对方的想法，他们也会明白你的想法。

And neither of you thinks the other is crazy or has ill intent.

你们都不认为对方疯了或者有恶意。

I just wish we could do that with our politics.

我只是希望我们能够通过我们的政治来做到这一点。

I understand all the reasons why that's not happening.

我理解为什么这种情况没有发生的所有原因。

I understand how some people think we're way beyond that.

我理解有些人认为我们远远超出了这一点。

It's impossible, counterproductive, just a bad idea.

这是不可能的，适得其反，只是一个坏主意。

But just to say, I wish.

但只是说，我希望。

I think lots of us wish that.

我想我们很多人都希望如此。

Without that-- and divided so evenly, nobody can predict the outcome of a presidential election-- without that, how are we going to keep functioning as a country?

如果没有这一点——而且分配如此均匀，没有人能够预测总统选举的结果——如果没有这一点，我们将如何继续作为一个国家运作？

But who is trying to bridge that gap between red America and blue America and bring us to a common story?

但谁在试图弥合红色美国和蓝色美国之间的鸿沟，让我们看到一个共同的故事呢？

I honestly can't name a half dozen people if I try.

老实说，如果我尝试的话，我也无法说出六个人的名字。

And so whenever I hear of anybody attempting to do anything like that and doing what seems like a decent job of it, I perk up.

因此，每当我听到有人试图做类似的事情并且做得似乎不错时，我就会振作起来。

And I heard about somebody like that recently from somebody who used to work here at our show, Brian Reed.

我最近从曾经在我们展会工作过的布莱恩·里德那里听说了这样的人。

They did a story on this new podcast that he started with another former This American Life producer, Robyn Semien.

他们在这个新播客上做了一个故事，这个故事是他与《This American Life》的另一位前制片人罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 一起开始的。

Robyn produces the show.

罗宾担任该节目的制作人。

Brian hosts it.

布莱恩主持。

And they did a story about somebody doing this.

他们做了一个关于某人这样做的故事。

And Brian knows how I have kind of a bee in my bonnet about this particular thing, and so he sent me a copy.

布莱恩知道我对这件事很感兴趣，所以他给我发了一份副本。

And I am very excited to present a version of their story for you right now because it gave me a glimpse, a very tentative, first step kind of glimpse-- and I know that's a mixed metaphor, but just, whatever-- a first step glimpse of the possibility that people in this country could listen to each other a little bit and look at the facts of something together and understand each other just maybe a little smudge better.

我很高兴现在为你们呈现他们的故事的一个版本，因为它让我瞥见了，一种非常试探性的、第一步的一瞥——我知道这是一个混合的隐喻，但无论如何——第一步瞥见了这样的可能性：这个国家的人们可以互相倾听，一起看看一些事情的事实，并互相理解，也许只是更好一点。

We have some other stories in today's program.

今天的节目中我们还有其他一些故事。

They're about couples managing their feelings during this heightened political moment, on the verge of all of us getting one president or another, one future or another.

它们讲述的是在这个政治高度紧张的时刻，在我们所有人即将迎来一位或另一位总统、一个或另一个未来的边缘，夫妻们如何管理自己的感情。

We're going to get to all that after the break.

我们将在休息后讨论所有这些内容。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

Act One, A Tiny Thing That Gives Me Hope.

第一幕，一件给我希望的小事。

OK, so like I said before the break, this is a story about somebody trying to bridge the gap in the way that red America and blue America see the world.

好的，就像我在休息前所说的那样，这是一个关于某人试图弥合红色美国和蓝色美国看待世界的方式差距的故事。

And like I said, it comes from this new podcast that Brian Reed is hosting called Question Everything.

就像我说的，它来自布莱恩·里德主持的一个名为“质疑一切”的新播客。

It's a podcast about journalism.

这是一个关于新闻业的播客。

And the person trying to bridge the gap between the two Americas in this story is a journalist.

在这个故事中，试图弥合两个美洲之间鸿沟的人是一名记者。

In the story that they did on the podcast, they get to that guy in a little bit.

在他们在播客上做的故事中，他们稍微接触到了那个人。

But the story starts with a couple, Dick and Emily, who found themselves unhappily living on opposite sides of the red-blue divide.

但故事始于一对夫妇，迪克和艾米丽，他们发现自己不幸地生活在红蓝鸿沟的两端。

When they first met, decades ago, he was a Republican.

几十年前，当他们第一次见面时，他是一名共和党人。

She was, she says, a bleeding heart liberal, but it wasn't a big deal.

她说，她是一位热心的自由主义者，但这没什么大不了的。

Then that changed.

然后情况发生了变化。

Here's Brian with one of the producers of Question Everything, Zach St. Louis.

这是布莱恩和《质疑一切》的制片人之一扎克·圣路易斯。

So, Zach, you're the one who's gotten to know Dick and Emily, this couple that was fighting over the news, right?

那么，扎克，你是认识迪克和艾米丽的人，这对夫妇因为这个消息而争吵，对吗？

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, so their names are Richard and Emily Newton.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的，他们的名字是理查德和艾米丽·牛顿。

He obviously goes by Dick.

他显然被称为迪克。

They're in their 70s.

他们已经70多岁了。

They just celebrated their 24th wedding anniversary.

他们刚刚庆祝了结婚 24 周年纪念日。

It's a second marriage for both of them.

这是他们两人的第二次婚姻。

They fell in love singing hymns together in the choir at church.

他们在教堂的唱诗班里一起唱赞美诗，坠入爱河。

She's an alto.

她是一位女低音。

He's a bass.

他是一名贝斯手。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: They live in Orange County, California.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：他们住在加利福尼亚州奥兰治县。

OK.

好的。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: And over the last several years, they've found that they've been growing more and more miserable over something that seems so basic, which is what news they would each want to read in the morning.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：在过去的几年里，他们发现自己对一些看起来如此基本的事情变得越来越痛苦，而这正是他们每个人早上都想读的新闻。

We get up and get a cup of coffee.

我们起身去喝杯咖啡。

And we sit down, and we start going through our emails.

我们坐下来，开始查看电子邮件。

And we sit next to each other when we're doing that.

当我们这样做时，我们坐在一起。

I'd say, Emily, I have an article here.

我想说，艾米丽，我这里有一篇文章。

Would you be interested in me sending it to you?

您有兴趣我发给您吗？

And she would say, who's it from?

她会说，这是谁的？

And if I said "Breetbert" News or--

如果我说“Breetbert”新闻或者——

(INTERVIEWER) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Breitbart?

（采访者）扎克·圣。路易斯：布赖特巴特新闻网？

Is that what you mean?

你是这个意思吗？

Breitbart, that's it.

布赖特巴特新闻网，就是这样。

Yeah, Breitbart.

是的，布赖特巴特新闻网。

Or Epoch Times.

或者大纪元。

She knew those were really right-leaning and wasn't really interested.

她知道那些人确实是右倾，但并不真正感兴趣。

I was the same way with her if she found something on Atlantic or New York Times or Washington Post.

如果她在《大西洋月刊》、《纽约时报》或《华盛顿邮报》上发现了一些东西，我也会以同样的方式对待她。

Dick doesn't trust anything, no matter what it is, that comes from The New York Times, The Washington Post.

迪克不相信来自《纽约时报》和《华盛顿邮报》的任何内容，无论它是什么。

The Atlantic.

大西洋。

Emily Newton The Atlantic.

艾米丽·牛顿《大西洋月刊》。

MSNBC.

微软全国广播公司。

Emily Newton CNN.

美国有线电视新闻网艾米丽·牛顿。

That's another one.

那是另一件事。

CNN is another one.

美国有线电视新闻网 (CNN) 是另一家。

Emily Newton It doesn't matter what they're saying.

艾米丽·牛顿：他们说什么并不重要。

He just automatically dismisses--

他只是自动驳回——

Well, they've developed their own reputation.

好吧，他们已经建立了自己的声誉。

OK.

好的。

I realized, we are not reading from the same hymnal here.

我意识到，我们在这里读的不是同一首赞美诗。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: So they told me that they started arguing a lot more when Trump came on the political scene.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：所以他们告诉我，当特朗普登上政治舞台时，他们开始争论得更多。

Dick supported Trump.

迪克支持特朗普。

Emily furiously did not.

艾米丽愤怒地没有。

But then it was after Election Day in 2020 when they had one of their biggest disagreements.

但在 2020 年选举日之后，他们出现了最大的分歧之一。

From the beginning, I never believed that the election was fraudulently stolen.

从一开始，我就不相信选举是被欺诈窃取的。

I have more faith in people and in our democracy.

我对人民和我们的民主更有信心。

Dick was more open to doubt.

迪克更愿意怀疑。

They were saying that there was a lot of things that were going on that shouldn't have been going on.

他们说发生了很多不应该发生的事情。

There was packing drop boxes with ballots.

有人把选票装在投递箱里。

One person would walk up to the ballot box and drop in all kinds of ballots into it.

一个人走到投票箱前，将各种选票投入其中。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: So this particular theory Dick's talking about, it's from a movie, one of the many sources that he was turning to at the time.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：所以迪克所说的这个特殊理论来自一部电影，这是他当时求助的众多来源之一。

It's called 2,000 Mules.

这就是所谓的2000头骡子。

Have you heard of it?

你听说过吗？

I've heard of it.

我听说过。

Yes, I've had people talk to me about it, as I've been reporting, basically.

是的，正如我所报道的那样，基本上有人跟我谈论过这个问题。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, so this movie, 2,000 Mules, it looks like a documentary, but it's really a propaganda film.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的，所以这部电影《2000 骡子》看起来像一部纪录片，但它实际上是一部宣传片。

It's about a stolen election theory.

这是关于被盗的选举理论。

It's not true.

这不是真的。

But for a while, on the right, this movie seemed like it was everywhere.

但有一段时间，在右边，这部电影似乎无处不在。

Everyone seemed to be talking about it.

每个人似乎都在谈论这件事。

Trump actually did a screening of it at Mar-a-Lago.

特朗普实际上在海湖庄园放映了它。

It was in something like 400 movie theaters.

大约有 400 家电影院。

I mean, lots and lots of people believed it.

我的意思是，很多很多人都相信这一点。

It's made by Dinesh D'Souza.

它是由 Dinesh D'Souza 制作的。

He's a right-wing political commentator.

他是一位右翼政治评论员。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: The gist is that it's about this theory that a bunch of Democratic groups were paying people, who they call mules, to illegally collect ballots and stuff them into ballot boxes in key swing states.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：要点是，这个理论认为，一群民主党团体付钱给他们所谓的骡子，非法收集选票并将其塞进关键摇摆州的投票箱。

Philadelphia alone, we've identified more than 1,100 mules.

仅费城一地，我们就发现了 1,100 多头骡子。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: So there were these talking head interviews, and they're intercut with this grainy surveillance footage that shows this person putting ballots into a box.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：所以有这些头部采访，它们与这段模糊的监控录像交织在一起，显示这个人把选票放入盒子里。

And they're like, see?

他们就像，看到了吗？

There's all the evidence you need.

你需要的所有证据都有。

But that's not real surveillance footage or--

但这不是真正的监控录像或者——

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: It is real surveillance footage, but it's showing people just dropping off ballots legally.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：这是真实的监控录像，但它显示人们只是合法地投下选票。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: There's scary music, scary voiceover.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：有可怕的音乐，可怕的画外音。

We are not a democracy.

我们不是民主国家。

We are a criminal cartel masquerading as a democracy.

我们是一个伪装成民主国家的犯罪集团。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: And when Dick watched it, like a lot of people, he thought it seemed really plausible.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：当迪克看到它时，像很多人一样，他认为这看起来非常合理。

It just added to the other stories that I was hearing, things that were happening in Arizona and Georgia.

它只是添加到我听到的其他故事中，即亚利桑那州和佐治亚州发生的事情。

I'm thinking, yeah, there's stuff going on here that shouldn't be going on.

我在想，是的，这里发生了一些不应该发生的事情。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: So Dick is watching this movie.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：所以迪克正在看这部电影。

He's reading his sources.

他正在阅读他的消息来源。

And there are so many sources that cite so many stories about election fraud, which is part of what made it so believable.

有很多消息来源引用了很多有关选举舞弊的故事，这也是它如此可信的部分原因。

And also, he's watching the president, President Trump, say over and over again that the election was fraudulent.

而且，他还看到特朗普总统一遍又一遍地说选举存在欺诈行为。

It had been stolen from him.

它被从他那里偷走了。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yes, exactly.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的，完全正确。

And then Emily's consuming all of her own sources, and they say the exact opposite.

然后艾米丽消耗了她自己的所有资源，而他们的说法恰恰相反。

And it all added to this feeling that it wasn't safe for them to talk about politics.

这一切都加剧了他们谈论政治不安全的感觉。

(INTERVIEWER) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Did that feel different from other arguments or disagreements you'd had about non-political things over your marriage?

（采访者）扎克·圣。路易斯：这与你们在婚姻中非政治问题上发生的其他争论或分歧有什么不同吗？

It did, because there was no give and take.

确实如此，因为没有给予和索取。

We can argue about what we're going to spend our money on.

我们可以争论我们要把钱花在什么地方。

And we can argue about our kids.

我们可以为我们的孩子争论。

We can argue about the neighborhood.

我们可以争论邻居的事。

But we usually come to some sort of resolution.

但我们通常会达成某种解决方案。

This whole thing about Trump, there is no resolution.

关于特朗普的整件事，没有解决方案。

(INTERVIEWER) ZACH ST. LOUIS: How did that feel?

（采访者）扎克·圣。路易斯：那感觉如何？

Frustrating.

令人沮丧。

[LAUGHS] Because I know my husband.

[笑]因为我了解我的丈夫。

I know what a smart, sensitive, thoughtful person he is.

我知道他是一个多么聪明、敏感、体贴的人。

He's very generous.

他非常慷慨。

I know all that about him.

我知道关于他的一切。

And to have him suddenly be aligned to this person who I found absolutely despicable was very troubling.

让他突然与这个我认为绝对卑鄙的人结盟是非常令人不安的。

She wouldn't talk to me.

她不肯跟我说话。

She basically just-- I don't want to talk about it.

她基本上只是——我不想谈论这件事。

I would try.

我会尝试。

But it wasn't going to happen.

但这不会发生。

And if it did, we'd end up yelling at each other.

如果真的发生了，我们最终会互相大喊大叫。

I got so angry with her one day that I finally-- I just had to walk out of the house and walk down the street to cool off.

有一天，我对她非常生气，最后我不得不走出家门，沿着街道走下去，让自己冷静下来。

And then I started thinking, wow, I'm letting politics get involved in our marriage?

然后我开始想，哇，我让政治介入我们的婚姻吗？

Because I was really angry at the time.

因为我当时真的很生气。

And I just couldn't stand that.

我就是无法忍受。

I never thought that politics was important enough to jeopardize what she and I had together.

我从来不认为政治重要到会危及我和她共同拥有的一切。

(INTERVIEWER) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Did you feel like that it could do that, that politics could jeopardize it?

（采访者）扎克·圣。路易斯：你是否觉得它可以做到这一点，政治可能会危及它？

Yes.

是的。

I really did.

我真的做到了。

I think, what did I get myself into here?

我想，我到底把自己弄到这里来了什么呢？

Maybe I did something I shouldn't have done.

也许我做了一些不该做的事。

(INTERVIEWER) ZACH ST. LOUIS: What's the mistake you're talking about?

（采访者）扎克·圣。路易斯：你说的错误是什么？

Having someone that was so far left that I couldn't live with.

有一个人离我很远，我无法一起生活。

Oof.

钱币。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, this was a pretty low point in their marriage.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：是的，这是他们婚姻中的一个低谷。

And they told me that they really wanted to find a way out of it.

他们告诉我，他们真的想找到摆脱困境的方法。

We were both looking for some sort of-- I don't want to say neutral, but impartial news source.

我们都在寻找某种——我不想说中立但公正的新闻来源。

I was hungry for something that I could count on to peel the layers away and really show what's in the heart of it.

我渴望得到一些东西，我可以依靠它来剥开层层，真正展示出它的核心内容。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: They started reading different online news sources that branded themselves as being unbiased, slant-free, that kind of thing.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：他们开始阅读不同的在线新闻来源，这些新闻来源将自己标榜为公正、无偏见之类的。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: And then they finally landed on something.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：然后他们终于找到了一些东西。

It was a newsletter.

这是一份时事通讯。

Dick seemed to like it OK.

迪克似乎很喜欢它。

So did Emily.

艾米丽也是如此。

We both agreed, oh, yes, let's read Tangle.

我们都同意，哦，是的，我们来读《纠结》吧。

Tangle?

纠纷？

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yes, that's the newsletter.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：是的，那就是时事通讯。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: It's this daily newsletter.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：这是一份每日时事通讯。

It comes to your email.

它涉及到您的电子邮件。

It's, like, a Substack-type thing.

它就像一个子堆栈类型的东西。

It's run by a guy named Isaac Saul.

它由一个名叫艾萨克·索尔的人经营。

He started it.

他开始了。

He writes it.

他写的。

They have about 135,000 subscribers.

他们有大约 135,000 名订阅者。

It comes to your inbox every weekday.

每个工作日它都会发送到您的收件箱。

And each issue is all about one topic from the news.

每期都与新闻中的一个主题有关。

What they try to do is summarize two or three of the best articles and arguments from right-leaning sources about that topic, and then they do the same thing with left-leaning sources.

他们试图做的是总结来自右倾来源的关于该主题的两到三篇最好的文章和论点，然后他们对左倾来源做同样的事情。

And the whole premise of the newsletter is that there are people out there like Dick and Emily that are reading completely separate sources, and why not put all of those in one place?

时事通讯的整个前提是，像迪克和艾米丽这样的人正在阅读完全不同的来源，为什么不把所有这些都放在一个地方呢？

So that's what the newsletter is?

那么这就是新闻通讯吗？

It's just like, here's this topic-- here are a few stories from the left, here are a few stories from the right?

就好像，这是这个话题——左边有几个故事，右边有几个故事？

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, so you can actually read what those arguments are.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的，所以你实际上可以读到这些论点是什么。

I think probably the first thing that astounded me was the transparency, that when they make a mistake, they correct it as soon as they realize it, and they put it right up front.

我认为最让我震惊的可能是透明度，当他们犯了错误时，他们会在意识到错误后立即纠正，并将其放在前面。

How is that different than corrections in a newspaper?

这与报纸上的更正有何不同？

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: A little bit, it's the way that they do it.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：有一点，他们就是这样做的。

So corrections in a newspaper, traditionally, they are at the end of the article.

因此，报纸上的更正传统上是在文章的末尾。

There will be a little footnote.

会有一个小脚注。

Actually, we got this wrong.

事实上，我们错了。

It's been changed above.

上面已经改了。

We regret the error, in little print italics at the bottom.

我们对这个错误表示遗憾，并在底部用小斜体字表示。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Tangle's approach to corrections, it's a bit different.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：Tangle 的修正方法有点不同。

Can you show me?

你能告诉我吗？

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yes.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：是的。

This is from August 21.

这是从8月21日开始的。

And at the very, very top, the very first thing that you see is "correction," period, in big letters.

在最顶层，你首先看到的是“更正”，句号，用大写字母表示。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: "In our coverage of the Medicare drug pricing negotiations yesterday, we said that four of the Medicare Part D drugs for which the government had negotiated lower prices were overprescribed in the United States.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：“在我们昨天对医疗保险药品定价谈判的报道中，我们表示，政府协商降低价格的四种医疗保险 D 部分药物在美国的处方量过多。

That was false.

那是假的。

We misread the abstract of a study and rushed our review process when we included it.

我们误读了一项研究的摘要，并在将其纳入时匆忙进行了审查。

A sincere thank you to the 10 or so readers who caught the error."

衷心感谢发现该错误的 10 名左右读者。”

And then, in italics right below that-- "This is our 114th correction in Tangle's 263-week history and our first correction since August 13.

然后，在下面用斜体字表示——“这是 Tangle 263 周历史上的第 114 次修正，也是我们自 8 月 13 日以来的第一次修正。

We track corrections and place them at the top of the newsletter in an effort to maximize transparency with readers."

我们跟踪更正并将其放置在时事通讯的顶部，以最大限度地提高读者的透明度。”

So this is different than a newspaper.

所以这与报纸不同。

I see.

我懂了。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的。

Brian Reed What else did Dick and Emily notice about Tangle?

布莱恩·里德迪克和艾米丽还注意到关于坦格尔的什么？

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, so they noticed that it wasn't so sensational.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的，所以他们注意到这并不是那么耸人听闻。

It was more measured or even-handed in their language.

他们的语言更加谨慎或公平。

So for instance, Tangle noticed that readers on the right would sometimes unsubscribe from the newsletter after reading a phrase like "undocumented immigrant." But they also didn't think it was right to call someone "illegal" or an "illegal alien." So they did this big internal review, and they settled on the term "unauthorized migrant."

例如，坦格尔注意到，右翼读者有时会在阅读“无证移民”这样的短语后取消订阅时事通讯。但他们也不认为称某人为“非法”或“非法外国人”是正确的。因此，他们进行了这次大规模的内部审查，并最终确定了“未经授权的移民”一词。

We really liked that approach, trying to filter out all the trigger words or the words that were very highly volatile emotionally, which helps both of us then consider the issue with less emotion about it.

我们真的很喜欢这种方法，试图过滤掉所有触发词或情感上非常不稳定的词，这有助于我们双方以较少的情感来考虑这个问题。

I'm not going to say with no emotion.

我不会毫无感情地说。

[CHUCKLES] We would still argue, but with less emotion about it.

[笑]我们仍然会争论，但不会那么激动。

And then we loved Isaac's take.

然后我们喜欢艾萨克的观点。

What's Isaac's take?

艾萨克的看法是什么？

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: So Isaac's take-- Isaac refers to Isaac Saul.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：所以以撒的说法——以撒指的是以撒扫罗。

He's the founder and writer of the newsletter.

他是该通讯的创始人和作者。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: And at the end of every issue, he spends a long time writing his opinion.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：在每一期的最后，他都会花很长时间写下他的观点。

And these can be long.

这些可能很长。

And he says exactly how he feels about the issue after having researched it and just describes his own feeling about it.

他在研究之后准确地表达了他对这个问题的感受，并只是描述了他自己的感受。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的。

Here, I'll send one to you.

在这里，我寄一份给你。

We can look at it.

我们可以看看。

All right.

好的。

This was earlier this month.

这是本月早些时候的事。

"Hurricane Helene and the Disaster Relief Efforts."

“飓风海伦和救灾工作。”

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yes.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的。

The first part is just the topic.

第一部分只是主题。

Then they summarize what the right is saying.

然后他们总结了右派的言论。

They summarize what the left is saying.

他们总结了左派的言论。

But then at the end, you see "My Take." And so I'm obviously not going to read this whole thing.

但最后，你会看到“我的看法”。所以我显然不会阅读整篇文章。

It is--

它是——

Yeah, this is long.

是的，这很长。

Wow.

哇。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: --2,200 words.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：--2,200 字。

I looked.

我看了看。

It's, like, a whole essay.

这就像一篇完整的论文。

But what's his take on Hurricane Helene?

但他对飓风海伦有何看法？

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, so before we get to his take, I think you need to understand what he's responding to here.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的，所以在我们了解他的观点之前，我认为你需要了解他在这里的回应是什么。

There have been a lot of attacks on the Biden administration from the right saying that they're doing nothing to help people who've been affected by this hurricane.

右翼人士对拜登政府进行了很多攻击，称他们没有采取任何措施来帮助受飓风影响的人们。

Like, actually nothing?

就像，实际上什么也没有？

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Well, that they failed to rise to the occasion, basically.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：嗯，基本上是他们没能应对这种情况。

So Isaac, he really puts a stake in the ground and says, there's a big problem with this narrative.

所以艾萨克，他真的把木桩放在地上并说，这个叙述有一个大问题。

It's all nonsense.

都是废话。

It's all a lie.

这都是谎言。

And then he writes, "I hate writing pieces like this.

然后他写道：“我讨厌写这样的文章。

It's not my job to defend the federal government from lies.

保护联邦政府免受谎言侵害不是我的工作。

And it's hard to write a piece like this without reading it like I'm openly shilling for Harris or Biden.

如果我不读它，就很难写出这样的文章，就像我公开支持哈里斯或拜登一样。

I am not.

我不是。

I'm not here to do their PR or protect their reputations.

我来这里不是为了做他们的公关或保护他们的声誉。

However, I do care about our information ecosystem.

然而，我确实关心我们的信息生态系统。

I care about reliable, accurate information being shared widely.

我关心广泛共享可靠、准确的信息。

I also care about the North Carolinians in danger right now, not just because they're Americans and it's a state I love, but also because my mom, my aunt, my brother and his family, my sister-in-law, and my niece, they all live in North Carolina.

我也关心现在处于危险之中的北卡罗来纳州人，不仅因为他们是美国人，这是我热爱的州，还因为我的妈妈、阿姨、我的兄弟和他的家人、我的嫂子和我的侄女，他们都住在北卡罗来纳州。

So the horrors we're all witnessing on the news hit close to home.

因此，我们在新闻中目睹的恐怖事件触动了我们的心。

Here's the truth, though.

不过，这是事实。

Biden and Harris have actually pulled every lever federal executives can in a situation like this.

在这种情况下，拜登和哈里斯实际上已经动用了联邦高管所能使用的一切手段。

None of the critics that I posted above can say exactly what they want them to do that they aren't already doing.

我在上面发表的评论家都不能准确地说出他们希望他们做什么而他们还没有做。

And if you're planning on writing in to tell me that I am shilling for Harris or being a left-wing hack by calling out lies online, you'd better be prepared to tell me exactly what I've gotten wrong here." And then he goes on for several more paragraphs.

如果你打算写信告诉我，我是在为哈里斯买单，或者是在网上大肆宣扬谎言，是个左翼黑客，那么你最好准备好准确地告诉我我在这里犯了什么错。”然后他继续讲了几段。

Oh, wow.

哦，哇。

Interesting.

有趣的。

I can feel his resentment at having to defend the Democratic administration.

我能感觉到他对必须捍卫民主党政府的不满。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, he's like, I don't want to do this just to defend them.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的，他说，我不想这样做只是为了保护他们。

But in this case, they're doing everything they can.

但在这种情况下，他们正在竭尽全力。

And that's what the facts show.

事实也证明了这一点。

And so I'm going to say that.

所以我要这么说。

Right.

正确的。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: And this part of the newsletter was something that Dick and Emily really came to appreciate.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：迪克和艾米丽非常欣赏时事通讯的这一部分。

He was very clear about what his biases were.

他很清楚自己的偏见是什么。

That made him extremely trustworthy.

这让他非常值得信赖。

More often than not, when we get to the end and we read "My Take," we look at each other and say, yeah, that's how I feel.

通常，当我们读到最后并读到“我的看法”时，我们会互相看着对方说，是的，这就是我的感受。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: They started realizing that they actually agreed with each other on a lot of things, and they were able to talk about it.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：他们开始意识到他们实际上在很多事情上都意见一致，并且能够谈论它。

And eventually, something pretty remarkable happened.

最终，发生了一些非常了不起的事情。

So remember how Dick was totally convinced the election had been stolen?

那么还记得迪克是如何完全相信选举被窃取的吗？

He watched 2,000 Mules.

他观察了2000头骡子。

He read all of those conspiracies about it.

他读到了所有关于它的阴谋。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: So as Dick and Emily were starting to have this shared understanding of the news again, Tangle did the thing for Dick that no other source seemed to be able to do, that Emily wasn't able to do, and that was prove to him that the 2020 election had not been stolen.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：当迪克和艾米丽再次开始对新闻有这种共同理解时，坦格尔为迪克做了一件其他消息来源似乎无法做到、艾米丽无法做到的事情，这向他证明了 2020 年的选举没有被窃取。

The only thing that changed my mind completely was the fact that I started reading Tangle.

唯一彻底改变我想法的是我开始阅读《Tangle》。

And it's only because I trust Isaac and his team so much.

这只是因为我非常信任艾萨克和他的团队。

It's incredibly fulfilling, to be honest.

老实说，这是令人难以置信的满足。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: This is Isaac Saul.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：这是艾萨克·索尔。

He's the guy who writes Tangle.

他就是《纠结》的作者。

Yes.

是的。

Isaac Saul Just, it's actually so rewarding, because the election fraud stuff in particular was one of the most difficult times of my life as a reporter.

艾萨克·索尔：只是，这实际上非常有意义，因为特别是选举舞弊事件是我作为一名记者一生中最困难的时期之一。

The month after that election was dark, stressful, really, really hard work.

选举后的一个月是黑暗的，压力很大，工作真的非常辛苦。

And hearing that somebody had that reaction, that their mind was actually changed, even one person, it's like, yeah, it makes me want to cry.

听到有人有这样的反应，他们的想法实际上改变了，即使是一个人，就像，是的，这让我想哭。

[LAUGHS]

[笑]

Brian Reed So am I getting this right?

布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）那么我说得对吗？

It seems like Isaac and this newsletter, Tangle, they seem to have done something that I feel like so many journalists, myself included, have been banging our heads against the wall, trying to figure out what to do, which is, how do you get people to believe the evidence that the 2020 election was not stolen from Donald Trump?

看起来艾萨克和这本时事通讯《Tangle》，他们似乎做了一些事情，我觉得很多记者，包括我自己，一直在用头撞墙，试图弄清楚该怎么做，也就是说，如何让人们相信 2020 年选举不是从唐纳德·特朗普那里窃取的证据？

Something like a third of Americans believe that it was.

大约有三分之一的美国人相信确实如此。

It's really threatening our ability to function.

它确实威胁到我们的运作能力。

How do you present those facts and get people to believe them?

您如何呈现这些事实并让人们相信它们？

I mean, we did a whole episode of our show about Barton Gellman, one of the greatest investigative reporters of our time, I'd say, who quit journalism because of this problem.

我的意思是，我们有一整集关于巴顿·盖尔曼（Barton Gellman）的节目，我想说，他是我们这个时代最伟大的调查记者之一，因为这个问题而退出了新闻业。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的。

Brian Reed And you're saying Tangle did it.

布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）你是说是坦格尔干的。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: In this case, Tangle did it.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：在这种情况下，坦格尔做到了。

Yeah, for Dick, Tangle did it.

是的，对于迪克来说，坦格尔做到了。

All right.

好的。

So how did Tangle do this?

那么唐乐是如何做到这一点的呢？

How did Isaac, the guy who runs this, do this?

经营这家公司的艾萨克是如何做到这一点的？

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, so Isaac did a ton of work around this whole election denialism issue.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的，所以艾萨克围绕整个选举否认主义问题做了很多工作。

It wasn't just one newsletter.

这不仅仅是一份时事通讯。

Every time a new claim about how the election may have been stolen surfaced, he would spend all this time running it down, explaining in detail why it was false.

每当有关选举可能被窃取的新说法浮出水面时，他都会花大量时间进行驳斥，详细解释为什么它是错误的。

He did that in the days and weeks immediately following the election.

他在选举后的几天和几周内就这样做了。

He continued doing it as new claims surfaced in the years since.

此后几年，随着新的主张不断出现，他继续这样做。

But a lot of news sources have done this, looked at these different claims about how the election was stolen and showed why they aren't true, and looked at the court cases where no evidence surfaced and all this stuff, right?

但很多新闻来源都这样做了，研究了这些关于选举如何被窃取的不同说法，并说明了为什么它们不真实，并研究了没有证据出现的法庭案件以及所有这些东西，对吗？

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: They did.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：他们做到了。

But Isaac was doing a lot of research.

但艾萨克做了很多研究。

Like, for example, in the weeks following the election, right after, he did this 400-tweet-long thread that was going in detail into each claim.

例如，在选举后的几周内，他发布了一条长达 400 条推文的帖子，详细介绍了每项主张。

He was really, really deep on this.

他对此真的非常非常深入。

But I don't think it was only the research that helped convince Dick.

但我认为不仅仅是这项研究说服了迪克。

There's something else that Isaac did.

艾萨克还做了其他一些事情。

And it was in his tone and how he approached this whole issue, especially around the claims that seemed more persuasive.

这是他的语气以及他处理整个问题的方式，尤其是围绕似乎更有说服力的主张。

He didn't just write them off.

他不只是注销它们。

He assessed them seriously.

他认真地评估他们。

He presented them seriously.

他认真地介绍了它们。

And that didn't make Dick feel stupid.

但这并没有让迪克觉得自己很愚蠢。

Here's Isaac.

这是艾萨克。

Some of the stuff was really convincing.

有些东西确实令人信服。

And proving that they were wrong was not as simple as saying, oh, this is just conspiracy nonsense.

而证明他们错了并不只是说，哦，这只是阴谋论胡说八道那么简单。

Like, the ballot stuffing thing, that was a plausible way to steal an election.

就像塞选票一样，这是窃取选举的一种看似合理的方式。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: In 2022, he actually dedicated an entire newsletter, a deep dive, into 2,000 Mules, that movie we were talking about.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：2022 年，他实际上专门写了一整篇时事通讯，深入探讨了我们正在谈论的那部电影《2,000 Mules》。

So when that movie came out and everybody just laughs at Dinesh D'Souza, I was kind of like, I'm going to watch it and take some of these allegations seriously and see what's up.

所以当那部电影上映时，每个人都在嘲笑迪内什·迪索萨，我想，我要观看它并认真对待其中一些指控，看看发生了什么。

It turned out they were all bullshit, but you only know that if you actually do some of the work.

事实证明这些都是废话，但只有你真正做了一些工作才知道这一点。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Can I actually just read you what he wrote at the top of that newsletter?

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：我真的可以读一下他在时事通讯顶部写的内容吗？

Yeah, please.

是的，请。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: So the title of the newsletter is "An Honest Look at 2,000 Mules, the New Stolen Election Theory." And this is how he opens it.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：所以时事通讯的标题是“诚实地审视 2,000 头骡子，新的被盗选举理论”。这就是他打开它的方式。

"I consider myself to be both a skeptic and an open-minded person.

“我认为自己既是一个怀疑论者，又是一个思想开放的人。

I am deeply cynical about our government, believe intelligence agencies are covering up the truth about UFOs, and don't feel any particular loyalty to any major political parties.

我对我们的政府深感愤世嫉俗，认为情报机构正在掩盖有关不明飞行物的真相，并且对任何主要政党都没有任何特别的忠诚。

I generally distrust authority, government agencies, and politicians.

我通常不信任权威、政府机构和政客。

But I do believe it's wise to consult expert opinions and advice.

但我确实认为咨询专家的意见和建议是明智的。

I love a good conspiracy, a good cover-up, and a great story.

我喜欢精彩的阴谋、精彩的掩盖和精彩的故事。

A stolen presidential election would be an all-timer in every regard, a story so gigantic, a conspiracy of corruption and power so unthinkable that the idea alone is tantalizing enough.

一场被盗的总统选举从各个方面来说都将是历史性的，这是一个如此巨大的故事，一个腐败和权力的阴谋如此难以想象，光是这个想法就足够诱人了。

I almost want to believe it." And then he goes on to dissect every point made in the film and show why it's inaccurate.

I almost want to believe it."然后他继续剖析电影中的每一个观点，并说明为什么它不准确。

But that's how he starts.

但这就是他的开始。

Interesting.

有趣的。

OK, so that's the presentation difference you're talking about?

好的，这就是您所说的演示差异？

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的。

And I'll just say that that framing, it's really different from how other outlets covered this film.

我只想说，这个框架与其他媒体报道这部电影的方式确实不同。

Like, for example, there's a New York Times headline about the movie.

例如，《纽约时报》有关于这部电影的头条新闻。

It was, quote, "A Big Lie in a New Package." There was a Washington Post headline that was, quote, "2,000 Mules Offers the Least Convincing Election Fraud Theory Yet."

这是“新包装中的一个大谎言”。《华盛顿邮报》的标题是“2000 头骡子提供了迄今为止最不令人信服的选举舞弊理论”。

And look, I mean, that's all true.

我的意思是，你看，这都是真的。

It is a lie.

这是一个谎言。

But Isaac realized he's probably not going to convince someone who already believes the lie by leading with that.

但艾萨克意识到，他可能无法通过这种方式来说服那些已经相信谎言的人。

So instead, he levels with people, explains where he's coming from and all the research he did, and then explains what he found about the claims.

因此，他与人们坦诚相待，解释他来自哪里以及他所做的所有研究，然后解释他对这些说法的发现。

And so this was what Dick was reading.

After reading his article, what I realized was-- and he even admitted there were some things that were happening that shouldn't have been happening in some of the polls.

读完他的文章后，我意识到——他甚至承认在一些民意调查中发生了一些不应该发生的事情。

But it wouldn't have changed the dynamics of who won and who lost at all.

但这根本不会改变谁赢谁输的动态。

That was actually the first time I really realized it for sure.

这实际上是我第一次真正意识到这一点。

And that really opened my eyes to how corrupt that was.

这确实让我看到了这是多么腐败。

That really sold me on the fact that the election wasn't stolen.

这确实让我相信选举不是被窃取的。

What I was thinking in my head was, like, I want to bring all these people in my life under one roof, and I want them to be able to read a news source that the Trump MAGA bro will trust and the left-wing Bernie bro will trust.

我脑子里想的是，我想把我生活中的所有这些人都集中在一个屋檐下，我希望他们能够阅读特朗普的MAGA兄弟会信任的新闻来源，左翼伯尼兄弟会信任的新闻来源。

What was the origin story for Tangle for Isaac?

以撒的魔发奇缘的起源故事是什么？

He was a reporter before this?

在此之前他是一名记者？

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, he was a reporter.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的，他是一名记者。

He worked for Huffington Post, a couple of other places.

他曾在《赫芬顿邮报》和其他几个地方工作过。

And he told me that he's always been the type of person that's brought together people from different backgrounds in his personal life.

Maybe they don't agree, and he's often mediating between those people.

也许他们不同意，而他经常在这些人之间进行调解。

But really, the inspiration for Tangle came out of his own news consumption.

但实际上，《Tangle》的灵感来自于他自己的新闻消费。

The idea for Tangle basically came from the Trump era of, Trump proposes a border wall, and I'm like, he's proposing a 2,000-mile border wall.

Tangle 的想法基本上来自特朗普时代，特朗普提议修建边境墙，我想，他提议修建 2,000 英里的边境墙。

This sounds totally insane.

I can't imagine the best argument for this.

But I really want to understand, is this something that would actually work?

但我真的很想了解，这真的有用吗？

And in order to grasp what was actually happening, my day would be like, I'm going to go read The New York Times editorial board.

I'm going to read their immigration reporting about it.

我要读一下他们的移民报告。

Then I'm going to go to Fox News and scroll through their opinion page and search for Trump's border wall.

然后我要去福克斯新闻并滚动他们的意见页面并搜索特朗普的边境墙。

And then maybe I'll listen to a Ben Shapiro podcast, and then I'll go listen to Pod Save America.

然后也许我会听 Ben Shapiro 播客，然后我会去听 Pod Save America。

And then I'll watch The Daily Show do a bit about it, or watch John Oliver.

And then I'll spend an hour on some Tucker Carlson special about it.

然后我会花一个小时来听一些塔克·卡尔森的特别报道。

And then I'll do 10 hours of all this consuming of the news.

然后我会花 10 个小时阅读这些新闻。

And I'll sit down, and I'll be like, OK, I think I now have a really good understanding of everybody's perspective, positive and negative, about this policy proposal.

我会坐下来，然后我会说，好吧，我想我现在已经很好地了解了每个人对这项政策提案的看法，无论是积极的还是消极的。

Why can't I just find that one place?

That should exist somewhere.

Do you know who's reading the newsletter?

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: I kind of do, based on a reader survey of Tangle subscribers.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：根据对 Tangle 订户的读者调查，我有点这么认为。

So a little bit over half of the subscribers are men, around 57%.

因此，超过一半的订阅者是男性，约占 57%。

It skews very white, just below 90% of readers.

It's US-based, but Isaac says it does reach something like 55 other countries.

And about a third of the readers say that they're on the left, a third on the right, and the last third are either center or independent.

大约三分之一的读者说他们是左派，三分之一是右派，最后三分之一要么是中间派，要么是独立派。

Wow, so it's pretty evenly politically split.

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, pretty even split politically.

（主持人）扎克·圣。 LOUIS: Yeah, pretty even split politically.

And I did talk to some other readers of the newsletter who said that it had an impact on them, similar to Dick and Emily.

Like who?

像谁？

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: I met this one guy at a political event in New York, and he told me it's basically the only news that he reads.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯LOUIS: I met this one guy at a political event in New York, and he told me it's basically the only news that he reads.

I talked to a new reader of Tangle-- a journalist, actually-- and he said that there were some arguments from the right that he'd just written off.

我和《Tangle》的一位新读者——实际上是一名记者——交谈过，他说他刚刚驳回了一些来自右翼的论点。

But reading Tangle actually helped him see that they had a point.

And I even spoke to another guy who, like Dick, had his mind changed about the 2020 election.

我什至与另一个像迪克一样对 2020 年大选改变了想法的人进行了交谈。

I assumed that Donald Trump was telling me the truth, that they had firm evidence that it was definitely manipulation of the ballots.

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: This is a guy named Rick.

（主持人）扎克·圣。 LOUIS: This is a guy named Rick.

Wait, Rick and Dick?

等等，瑞克和迪克？

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Rick and Dick.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：瑞克和迪克。

OK.

好的。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Both Richard, if you want to be technical about it.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯LOUIS: Both Richard, if you want to be technical about it.

Got it.

知道了。

Go on.

继续。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: It's a really similar story to Dick and Emily's.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯LOUIS: It's a really similar story to Dick and Emily's.

Rick was a big Trump supporter, voted for him twice.

Rick's son is on the left politically.

They were arguing about the news a lot.

And the son started forwarding Rick the newsletter, including issues that were about the stolen election claims.

They weren't just laughing it off.

他们不只是一笑置之。

I have a trust in their news gathering and presentation abilities head and shoulders above any other news gathering source.

I have a trust level there that's unequaled.

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: And again, like Dick and Emily, Rick and his son have mended their relationship.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：就像迪克和艾米丽一样，里克和他的儿子也修复了他们的关系。

They can talk to each other about the news again.

And now, he doesn't think the election was stolen.

现在，他不认为选举被窃取了。

And that feeling of being lied to, it's actually convinced him not to vote for Trump this year.

Really?

真的吗？

Rick Yeah.

瑞克是的。

The only reason I wouldn't vote for him is because he made me look foolish in front of my son.

我不会投票给他的唯一原因是他让我在我儿子面前显得很愚蠢。

Zach, you mentioned the importance of striking the right tone when we're presenting evidence, especially evidence that's contrary to what someone believes.

扎克，你提到了当我们提供证据时，尤其是与某人的信念相反的证据时，保持正确语气的重要性。

And that does seem important.

But also just hearing the story of Rick and his son alongside the story of Dick and Emily, his wife, I do just wonder, does a person have to be motivated to get along with someone they love to repair a relationship, essentially, in order to change their mind?

但只是听到里克和他儿子的故事以及迪克和他的妻子艾米丽的故事，我确实想知道，一个人是否必须有动力与他们所爱的人相处以修复关系，本质上，为了改变他们的想法？

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, it's a good question.

（主持人）扎克·圣。 LOUIS: Yeah, it's a good question.

Wanting to see something from someone else's perspective, the perspective of someone you love, it seems like that doesn't hurt.

It's interesting, thinking about it.

很有趣，仔细想想。

It's not exactly that Tangle moved both of them towards the center, and they met in the middle.

不完全是唐乐把他们两个都往中心移动了，他们在中间相遇了。

But it moved Dick more towards Emily, basically.

但基本上，这让迪克更接近艾米丽。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, I mean, obviously, it would make for a better story if they each moved toward the center.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的，我的意思是，显然，如果他们都向中心移动，故事会更好。

I think that's sort of--

我认为这有点——

Met in the middle.

中间遇见了。

Zach St. Louis (HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: --what we want from a story like this.

扎克·圣路易斯（主持人）扎克·圣路易斯路易斯：——我们想从这样的故事中得到什么。

Exactly, met in the middle.

没错，就是在中间遇见的。

But it's really more like Dick believed something that wasn't true.

但实际上迪克更像是相信了一些不真实的事情。

And then he was the one that moved toward facts.

然后他就是那个走向事实的人。

How does Emily say it changed her?

艾米丽怎么说这改变了她？

Does she say it changed her?

她说这改变了她吗？

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: So she told me that she didn't have as dramatic a change as Dick.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：所以她告诉我她没有像迪克那样发生巨大的变化。

It wasn't like she believed something that wasn't true and had her mind changed.

这并不是说她相信了一些不真实的事情并改变了主意。

But she says she does read the news differently now.

但她说她现在对新闻的看法确实有所不同。

For instance, she told me that hearing some of Kamala Harris's policy proposals and how, before, she would have taken some of them at face value as good ideas.

例如，她告诉我，听到卡马拉·哈里斯的一些政策建议，以及以前她如何将其中一些从表面上看为好主意。

Now, she says she's thinking more critically about them.

现在，她说她正在更加批判性地思考它们。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Yeah, the last time I spoke to them, they really did seem to be in a better place.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：是的，上次我和他们交谈时，他们确实似乎处于更好的境地。

I think on the surface, it seemed like their problem was that they'd been talking across this political divide.

我认为从表面上看，他们的问题似乎在于他们一直在跨越政治分歧进行讨论。

But their real problem was that they weren't agreeing on facts.

但他们真正的问题是他们对事实的看法不一致。

They weren't agreeing on what was true.

他们对于真相的看法并不一致。

That's what made it so bitter.

这就是让它如此痛苦的原因。

It's a huge relief.

这是一个巨大的解脱。

Dick and I can now agree on more or disagree based on the same information, at least.

迪克和我现在至少可以根据相同的信息在更多方面达成一致或不同意。

I don't feel like I'm walking on eggshells if I want to mention something to her.

如果我想向她提点什么，我不会感到如履薄冰。

I mean, she's her own person.

我的意思是，她是她自己的人。

I'm not going to tell her who to vote for.

我不会告诉她该投票给谁。

And she wouldn't listen to me anyway.

而且她无论如何也不会听我的。

Now, we're on the same handbook, more or less, although he might be reading a different page than me at the time.

现在，我们或多或少都在读同一本手册，尽管他当时可能正在阅读与我不同的页面。

But it's generally the same handbook.

但它通常是相同的手册。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: But I mean, agreeing on the same set of facts, being in the same book, that's only going to get you so far.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：但我的意思是，就同一组事实达成一致，在同一本书中，这只会让你到目前为止。

Who's Dick voting for?

迪克把票投给了谁？

Dick Newton As far as I'm concerned, I don't like Trump as a person.

迪克·牛顿就我而言，我不喜欢特朗普这个人。

The way he handles himself, the things he says-- it bothers me a lot.

他处理自己的方式，他说的话——这让我很困扰。

But the one thing that I did like about him was his policies.

但我喜欢他的一件事是他的政策。

And so I'm definitely leaning towards Trump still.

所以我肯定仍然倾向于特朗普。

OK, that's Dick's-- Dick Newton That's my take.

好吧，那是迪克的——迪克牛顿，这是我的看法。

That's the first time that he's verbalized to me that he's thinking about voting for Trump.

这是他第一次向我口头表示他正在考虑投票给特朗普。

My heart just stopped.

我的心跳停止了。

(HOST) ZACH ST. LOUIS: Emily and Dick Newton in Orange County, California.

（主持人）扎克·圣。路易斯：艾米丽和迪克牛顿在加利福尼亚州奥兰治县。

So that's Brian Reed and Zach St. Louis of the podcast Question Everything, which is produced by KCRW and Placement Theory.

这就是由 KCRW 和 Placement Theory 制作的播客 Question Everything 的 Brian Reed 和 Zach St. Louis。

The story was edited by Jonathan Goldstein and Robyn Semien.

该故事由乔纳森·戈德斯坦和罗宾·塞米恩编辑。

Coming up, other couples muddling their way through this election using slightly more extreme tactics.

接下来，其他夫妇会使用稍微极端的策略在这次选举中摸爬滚打。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, A Small Thing That Gives Me a Tiny Shred of Hope.

今天的节目，一件小事，给了我一丝希望。

OK, so it was Act One and the Tangle newsletter that inspired that name for today's episode.

好的，正是第一幕和 Tangle 时事通讯启发了今天这一集的名称。

Now, in the second half of the show, the thread from that story that we're going to pick up and keep pulling is what is happening with couples during this election, which is interesting, because as you probably heard, there's a real gender gap between men and women this time out.

现在，在节目的后半部分，我们将继续关注这个故事的主线，那就是这次选举期间情侣们所发生的事情，这很有趣，因为正如你可能听说的那样，这次男女之间确实存在性别差距。

Men prefer Trump by 8 percentage points.

男性更喜欢特朗普 8 个百分点。

Women prefer Harris by 9.

女性对哈里斯的喜爱程度高出 9 分。

With that, we turn to Act Two of our show.

说到这里，我们转向节目的第二幕。

Act Two, "'Til Death Do Us Partisan."

第二幕，“直到死亡让我们成为党派”。

OK, so if you remember Emily and Dick, who we heard in Act One, they talk openly between them about their political differences.

好吧，如果你还记得我们在第一幕中听到的艾米丽和迪克，他们之间公开谈论他们的政治分歧。

One of our producers, Aviva DeKornfeld, spoke with a woman who is taking a different tactic with her husband.

我们的制片人之一阿维瓦·德科恩菲尔德 (Aviva DeKornfeld) 采访了一位与丈夫采取不同策略的女士。

It's been hard to find a time to talk with June.

很难找到时间与琼交谈。

She's on a three-week road trip with her husband, and they have almost no time apart.

她和丈夫正在进行为期三周的公路旅行，他们几乎没有分开的时间。

So we look for little cracks in her schedule to sneak in a call.

所以我们在她的日程安排中寻找小间隙，偷偷地打个电话。

Do you have a sense of how much time we have right now?

你知道我们现在还有多少时间吗？

Probably about a half an hour.

大概要半个小时左右。

He's in the shower.

他正在洗澡。

OK.

好的。

Wow, half an hour.

哇，半个小时。

Long shower.

长时间淋浴。

Luxurious.

豪华。

[CHUCKLES]

[笑声]

Oh, well, he has a whole routine-- teeth and everything.

哦，好吧，他有一整套的习惯——牙齿等等。

[LAUGHS]

[笑]

Yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊。

June He's like a teenage girl in that way.

琼他在这一点上就像一个十几岁的女孩。

I don't mind, but I'm a little bit concerned about-- I don't want to get in trouble.

我不介意，但我有点担心——我不想惹上麻烦。

The trouble June's trying to avoid is an argument with her husband.

琼试图避免的麻烦是与丈夫的争吵。

They're both conservatives.

他们都是保守派。

But after voting Republican for her entire life, this election, June will be secretly voting for Kamala Harris.

但在她一生都投票给共和党之后，这次选举，琼将秘密投票给卡马拉·哈里斯。

Her husband doesn't know about her plans.

她的丈夫并不知道她的计划。

And so that's sort of why I'm a secret voter, is because I'll vote however I want to vote.

这就是我成为秘密选民的原因，因为我会随心所欲地投票。

But having the conversations about it is where things get just uncomfortable.

但谈论这个问题却让人感到不舒服。

While we talk, June is pacing around the backyard of their rental house, where her husband can't hear her.

当我们谈话时，琼正在他们出租屋的后院踱步，她的丈夫听不到她的声音。

It's not like she's scared of him.

她倒不是怕他。

She just doesn't want to fight with him, which is why we're using a pseudonym.

她只是不想和他吵架，这就是我们使用化名的原因。

June's not her real name.

琼不是她的真名。

The Harris campaign is counting on the idea that there are lots of Junes out there.

哈里斯竞选团队指望的是“六月有很多”。

They're marketing to these women specifically, sending Republicans like Liz Cheney all over the country to talk to them.

他们专门针对这些女性进行营销，派出像利兹·切尼这样的共和党人到全国各地与她们交谈。

And there's a whole grassroots effort of people sticking Post-It notes in public restrooms, reminding these women their vote is private.

人们在公共厕所里贴了便利贴，提醒这些女性她们的投票是私人的。

I wondered what it was like for people in this situation.

我想知道处于这种情况的人会是什么样子。

Is it really possible to keep a secret like this from the person you share a house and a life with?

真的可以对与你同住一处、共同生活的人保守这样的秘密吗？

How do you do that?

你是怎么做到的？

What are the consequences?

后果是什么？

On our call, June made a point to say it wasn't always this way.

在我们的电话中，琼特意表示情况并非总是如此。

She's been with her husband, who I'll call Rick, for 20 years now.

她和她的丈夫（我称之为里克）在一起已有 20 年了。

They first met in an online group for single parents.

他们第一次见面是在一个针对单亲家长的在线小组中。

June had three little kids from a previous, pretty rough marriage.

琼在之前一段相当坎坷的婚姻中生下了三个孩子。

Rick had two kids.

瑞克有两个孩子。

And their courtship started over the phone.

他们的求爱是通过电话开始的。

Yes, I mean, like being in middle school.

是的，我的意思是，就像在中学一样。

Like, you'd spend all day with your best friend in middle school and then immediately come home and get on the phone with her.

就像，你会和你最好的中学朋友一起度过一整天，然后立即回家并和她通电话。

We would just talk for hours and hours and hours.

我们会聊几个小时、几个小时、几个小时。

It just felt like the easiest, most natural connection.

这感觉就像是最简单、最自然的联系。

By the time June and Rick actually met in real life a few months later, they were basically already a couple.

几个月后，当琼和瑞克在现实生活中真正见面时，他们基本上已经是情侣了。

A year later, they got married, and Rick raised June's kids as his own-- calls them his kids.

一年后，他们结婚了，瑞克把琼的孩子当作自己的孩子抚养——称他们为自己的孩子。

June says Rick was totally apolitical when they met, had never voted, wasn't even registered, which did not sit right with June.

琼说，他们见面时，里克完全不关心政治，从未投票，甚至没有登记，这与琼的观点不一致。

She's always been very politically engaged, makes a real effort to vote in every election, not just the big ones.

她一直非常热衷于政治，在每次选举中都努力投票，而不仅仅是重大选举。

Since June was a lifelong Republican, Rick also registered as a Republican.

由于琼是终身共和党人，里克也注册为共和党人。

And in 2016, they both voted for Donald Trump together.

2016年，他们一起投票给了唐纳德·特朗普。

But June immediately regretted it.

但六月立刻就后悔了。

She never liked Trump, but it felt wrong to her not to vote, and she assumed he wouldn't win anyway.

她从来不喜欢特朗普，但她觉得不投票是不对的，而且她认为他无论如何也不会获胜。

After the election, June started to lean away from her political party.

选举后，琼开始疏远她的政党。

But Rick reached towards it.

但瑞克却把手伸向了它。

He started watching Fox News every day.

他开始每天看福克斯新闻。

And it's just stirring something up inside of him that makes him afraid, or just angsty, or whatever.

它只是激起了他内心的某种东西，让他感到害怕，或者只是焦虑，或者其他什么。

And it just comes bubbling out.

它就冒出来了。

He's not a big talker to anybody else.

他对别人不是一个爱说话的人。

I'm the main person that he talks to.

我是他谈话的主要对象。

So I think if he talked to a lot of people, maybe I wouldn't be getting so much of it down the barrel.

所以我想，如果他和很多人交谈，也许我就不会得到这么多的信息。

But because I'm his main person, I think I get it all, because I think it makes him very anxious.

但因为我是他的主要人物，我想我明白这一切，因为我认为这让他非常焦虑。

Like, if you heard and believed every day that you're going to lose your freedom, you're going to lose your job, you're going to lose your way of life, all these terrible things are going to happen, I think it's natural that you would be anxious.

就像，如果你每天都听到并相信你将失去自由，你将失去你的工作，你将失去你的生活方式，所有这些可怕的事情都会发生，我认为你会感到焦虑是很自然的。

Does he have friends?

他有朋友吗？

June No. [CHUCKLING]

六月号。[咯咯笑]

Not even one?

连一个都没有吗？

June I mean, he has-- so one of the pastors at my church really likes him.

琼，我的意思是，他有——所以我教会的一位牧师真的很喜欢他。

But no, he doesn't really like people very much.

但不，他其实不太喜欢人。

[CHUCKLING]

[咯咯笑]

Aviva DeKornfeld Rick used to ask June about her opinion on politics.

阿维瓦·德科恩菲尔德 (Aviva DeKornfeld) 里克 (Rick) 常常询问琼 (June) 对政治的看法。

She would read articles, and he would ask her to summarize them for him.

她会读文章，他会让她为他总结文章。

That was the dynamic.

这就是动态。

She researched and came to an opinion, and he trusted her opinions.

她研究并得出了意见，他相信她的意见。

But these days--

但这些天——

The longer that Donald Trump has been on the picture, the sort of more like him my husband becomes.

唐纳德·特朗普在照片上出现的时间越长，我丈夫就越像他。

Just, I'm not allowed to have my own opinions.

只是，我不被允许有自己的意见。

And I'd better not vote this way or that way, or I'm going to go with you and vote, and just really getting very hostile about it.

我最好不要这样或那样投票，否则我会和你一起去投票，但我真的会变得非常敌视。

And I guess Donald Trump just made it easier, or more acceptable, or more popular to act like that.

我猜唐纳德·特朗普只是让这样的行为变得更容易、更容易被接受、或更受欢迎。

And it's the only area where he's like that.

这是他唯一这样的地方。

But if we have a big confrontation about it, then it becomes everything, you know?

但如果我们对此发生激烈的对抗，那么一切都会变得很糟糕，你知道吗？

It's just--

这只是——

[DOG BARKING] Aviva DeKornfeld Oh, I hear a little dog in the background.

[狗吠] Aviva DeKornfeld 哦，我听到背景中有一只小狗。

Yes, yes.

是的，是的。

We have the puppies with us, too.

我们也带着小狗。

[LAUGHS]

[笑]

Aviva DeKornfeld June is having this disagreement with her husband during a moment when election coverage is nonstop.

在选举报道不间断的时刻，阿维娃·德科恩菲尔德·琼 (Aviva DeKornfeld June) 与她的丈夫发生了这种分歧。

Ads are everywhere.

广告无处不在。

Both campaigns are relentlessly calling and texting and emailing, all while she's stuck in a car with her husband.

当她和丈夫被困在车里时，这两项竞选活动都在不停地打电话、发短信和发送电子邮件。

And this is all he wants to talk about.

这就是他想要谈论的全部。

She said they planned this trip a year ago, when things were calm.

她说他们在一年前就计划了这次旅行，当时一切都很平静。

And now, she can't believe she did this to herself.

而现在，她简直不敢相信她竟然对自己做了这样的事。

It's been very tense.

一直非常紧张。

But June's got a couple strategies for dealing when politics comes up.

但当政治出现时，琼有一些应对策略。

Sometimes, she tries something called gray rocking, which is basically just being as boring as possible in conversation so Rick has nothing to seize on or react to.

有时，她会尝试一种叫做“灰色摇滚”的东西，这基本上就是在谈话中尽可能地无聊，这样里克就没有什么可以抓住或做出反应的了。

Other times, she tries for a classic maneuver-- the dodge.

其他时候，她会尝试一种经典的动作——闪避。

I dodge a lot.

我躲闪很多。

No, I'm pretty good at dodging, because I'm very busy.

不，我很擅长躲避，因为我很忙。

Honey, I'm very busy making dinner.

亲爱的，我正忙着做晚饭。

I'm very busy with the cleaning, or I have to do some work, or whatever.

我很忙打扫卫生，或者我必须做一些工作，或者别的什么。

So I'd say maybe once every 10 days to two weeks do I let my guard down.

所以我想说也许每十天到两周我就会放松警惕一次。

And when her guard drops, a fight ensues.

当她放松警惕时，一场战斗就发生了。

They have a big fight every 10 days to two weeks because he keeps bringing politics up.

他们每十天到两周就会大吵一次，因为他总是提起政治。

He wants to talk to her about all this stuff.

他想和她谈谈所有这些事情。

And it unsettles him when they're not on the same page.

当他们意见不一致时，他就会感到不安。

He wants her to engage.

他希望她参与。

And so her refusal itself becomes a kind of fuel.

所以她的拒绝本身就成了一种燃料。

It ends up being very pushy, you know.

你知道，它最终会变得非常咄咄逼人。

Like, why aren't you talking to me?

比如，你为什么不跟我说话？

Why don't you answer me?

你为什么不回答我？

He'll say things, and I just take the bait, you know.

他会说一些话，而我只是上钩，你知道。

He'll say, you're a liberal.

他会说，你是一个自由主义者。

And what do you say?

你说什么？

June I say, I've been a conservative longer than you've been a conservative.

六月我说，我成为保守派的时间比你成为保守派的时间还要长。

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

June I am a conservative.

六月我是一个保守派。

Donald Trump stole my party.

唐纳德·特朗普偷走了我的派对。

[LAUGHS]

[笑]

Do you regret getting him politically engaged, given how things have turned out?

鉴于事情的结果，你是否后悔让他参与政治？

Totally, yes.

完全是的。

Aviva DeKornfeld I talked to a bunch of people like June, women who plan to vote for Kamala, but are going to all sorts of lengths to avoid telling their family and friends about it.

阿维瓦·德科恩菲尔德（Aviva DeKornfeld）我和琼这样的一群人进行了交谈，她们计划投票给卡马拉，但会想方设法避免告诉家人和朋友这件事。

They're all lifelong conservatives.

他们都是终生的保守派。

But then, for a lot of them, January 6 crossed a red line they didn't even know they had until it happened.

但随后，对于他们中的很多人来说，1 月 6 日已经跨越了一条红线，直到它发生之前他们甚至不知道自己已经跨越了红线。

And now, they can't bring themselves to vote for Trump again.

现在，他们无法再投票给特朗普了。

I talked to one woman in Louisiana who told me her parents knew she wasn't going to vote for Trump.

我与路易斯安那州的一位女士交谈过，她告诉我她的父母知道她不会投票给特朗普。

They assume she's going to write in another Republican, which she's happy to let them think.

他们认为她会在另一篇共和党文章中写文章，她很乐意让他们思考。

She said it's inconceivable to her parents that she could possibly vote for a Democrat.

她说她的父母难以置信她可能会投票给民主党。

Another woman in Missouri told me that once Kamala entered the race, she tried to test the waters with her family, said she was thinking that maybe she would vote for Kamala.

密苏里州的另一位女士告诉我，卡马拉参加竞选后，她试图与家人一起试水，说她在想也许她会投票给卡马拉。

Her family's reaction was so strong-- they said she was going to hell, that she was a communist-- that she had to backtrack.

她家人的反应如此强烈——他们说她会下地狱，说她是共产主义者——以至于她不得不改变主意。

They haven't talked about it again since.

从那以后他们就没有再谈论过这件事。

I mentioned all this to June.

我向六月提到了这一切。

I've talked to a bunch of people who are in different versions of your situation, and everyone tries to avoid talking about politics with their family because they obviously want to maintain close relationships with their family.

我和一群和你有不同处境的人谈过，每个人都试图避免与家人谈论政治，因为他们显然想与家人保持密切的关系。

And they avoid talking about it in service of the relationship.

他们为了维持关系而避免谈论它。

But actually, they just can't be as close with their family as they want to be if they can't really share this part of their life with them.

但实际上，如果他们不能真正与家人分享这部分生活，他们就无法像他们想要的那样与家人保持亲密关系。

Right.

正确的。

I think we sort of watch movies and TV shows where one explosive thing happens that ends up destroying a relationship or whatever it is.

我认为我们看的电影和电视节目中发生了一件爆炸性的事情，最终破坏了一段关系或其他什么。

But I think in actuality, those kinds of deteriorations happen little by little over time.

但我认为实际上，随着时间的推移，这种恶化会逐渐发生。

And it's these small, small things that chip away at any family relationship, or any kind of relationship.

正是这些很小的事情削弱了任何家庭关系或任何类型的关系。

And so I think I probably just make a short-term, easy decision to avoid it.

所以我想我可能只是做了一个短期的、简单的决定来避免它。

And it probably does have longer-term consequences.

它可能确实会产生长期后果。

I want to be clear.

我想澄清一下。

June and Rick still have nice parts of their marriage.

琼和瑞克的婚姻仍然有美好的部分。

They still go on their daily walks.

他们仍然每天散步。

They have those two little dogs that they both obsess over.

他们有两只都非常着迷的小狗。

Rick does this whole routine with the dogs during their nightly snack time, which delights June.

瑞克在晚上吃零食的时候和狗们一起做这一切，这让琼很高兴。

But with the wall-to-wall election noise, politics is increasingly crowding out those other, more peaceful parts of their lives.

但随着选举的喧嚣不断，政治越来越排挤他们生活中其他更和平的部分。

I have an older sister who's married to a like-minded man, and their relationship is just so different.

我有一个姐姐，嫁给了一个志同道合的男人，但他们的关系却截然不同。

There's just so much more back and forth between the two of them.

他们两个之间还有很多来来回回。

And there's so much less just angst about-- she can be who she wants to be, and he's just more secure in that.

而且不再有那么多的焦虑——她可以成为她想成为的人，而他只是在这一点上更有安全感。

She can voice her opinion.

她可以表达她的意见。

And it just doesn't ever seem like she's looking over her shoulder.

而且她似乎从来没有回头看。

But I definitely feel like I need to look over my shoulder, obviously.

但显然，我确实觉得我需要警惕。

I'm sitting in my backyard.

我坐在我的后院。

[LAUGHS] I just feel like I have to look over my back shoulder, not because something necessarily bad will happen to me, but it's just too exhausting to keep explaining myself, I guess.

[笑]我只是觉得我必须回头看看，并不是因为我身上一定会发生什么不好的事情，但我想，继续解释自己太累了。

I just don't really want to keep doing that.

我只是真的不想继续这样做。

Who does your husband think you're voting for?

你丈夫认为你会投票给谁？

[LAUGHS] I think he's afraid that I'm going to vote for Kamala.

[笑]我认为他担心我会投票给卡马拉。

I think he has a clue that I'm a never-Trumper.

我认为他知道我不是特朗普的支持者。

But I wouldn't say he knows for 100% sure.

但我不会说他百分百确定知道。

Sure.

当然。

Aviva DeKornfeld --because I don't mean to overstep-- but it sounds kind of lonely being in a--

Aviva DeKornfeld——因为我不想逾越——但这听起来有点孤独——

Oh, my gosh.

哦，天哪。

It's terrible.

太可怕了。

Aviva DeKornfeld --marriage--

阿维娃·德科恩菲尔德——婚姻——

Oh, my gosh.

哦，天哪。

It's terrible.

太可怕了。

Don't make me cry.

别让我哭。

[LAUGHS] Yes, he's not who I thought he was, or he's becoming somebody that-- yes, it's like I'm not fully who I am with him.

[笑]是的，他不是我想象的那样，或者他正在变成这样的人——是的，就像我和他在一起时并不完全是我。

And it's sad.

这很悲伤。

Yeah.

是的。

Do you have a-- I don't know-- a plan for if it keeps going down this road, or do you have any red lines?

我不知道，如果事情继续沿着这条路走下去，你有一个计划吗？或者你有什么红线吗？

Or you're just hoping, once the election is over, then you can go back to talking about other stuff?

或者你只是希望，一旦选举结束，你就可以回去谈论其他事情？

Yeah, it sort of steams up and then cools off, steams up and then cools off.

是的，它有点像蒸汽，然后冷却，蒸汽上升，然后冷却。

Yeah, I probably am not going to do anything.

是的，我可能不会做任何事情。

I mean-- I'm on the phone.

我是说——我正在打电话。

I'll be done in just five minutes, OK?

我只要五分钟就可以完成，好吗？

Yeah, it's not a fun life to talk about Donald Trump.

是的，谈论唐纳德·特朗普的生活可不是什么有趣的事情。

[LAUGHS] I just want to forget about him.

[笑]我只是想忘记他。

Was that your husband who came out just now?

刚才出来的是你老公吗？

Yeah.

是的。

[LAUGHS] Aviva DeKornfeld OK.

[笑] Aviva DeKornfeld 好的。

Just, it sounds like you should go?

只是，听起来你该走了？

OK, well, I'll let you go.

好吧，好吧，我就放你走了。

I really appreciate you talking.

我真的很感谢你的讲话。

Sure, sure.

当然，当然。

Thank you.

谢谢。

It was good to talk with you.

很高兴与你交谈。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Bye.

再见。

A few days after our call, I got a text from June.

我们通话几天后，我收到了六月的短信。

She was home from her trip and had gone to vote early with her daughter.

她出差回家，和女儿提前去投票了。

She sent me a selfie of the two of them, beaming with their matching voting stickers.

她给我发了一张两人的自拍照，脸上挂着相配的投票贴纸，笑容满面。

They both voted for Kamala.

他们都投票给卡马拉。

June said she felt relieved to have cast her vote, because now, no one could take it away from her.

琼说，她为投票感到欣慰，因为现在没有人可以夺走她的投票。

And more than that, she actually feels excited about the prospect of a Harris presidency.

更重要的是，她实际上对哈里斯担任总统的前景感到兴奋。

She thinks she'll do a good job.

她认为她会做得很好。

After they voted, June and her daughter celebrated, hugged goodbye.

投票后，琼和她的女儿庆祝并拥抱告别。

And then June peeled her sticker off and went home.

然后琼撕掉贴纸回家了。

Aviva DeKornfeld is one of the producers of our show.

Aviva DeKornfeld 是我们节目的制作人之一。

OK, so the biggest gap between men and women in this election is with younger voters, people under 30.

好吧，这次选举中男性和女性之间最大的差距是年轻选民，即 30 岁以下的人。

An NBC News poll found that 59% of young women in that group support Harris, compared to 42% of men, which got us wondering, how is a person that age supposed to find love?

NBC 新闻的一项民意调查发现，该群体中 59% 的年轻女性支持哈里斯，而男性的这一比例为 42%，这让我们想知道，这个年纪的人应该如何找到爱情？

Those numbers, if you are straight and under 30 and looking for somebody of the same party, they are not great.

如果你是 30 岁以下的异性恋并且正在寻找同一党派的人，这些数字并不好。

And that question brings us to Act Three of our show.

这个问题把我们带到了节目的第三幕。

Act Three, "Let Me Be Frank."

第三幕，“让我说实话”。

So when Aviva DeKornfeld was reaching out to couples looking for people to interview for the story that you just heard, one of the people she came across was a guy named Frank Filocomo.

因此，当阿维娃·德科恩菲尔德 (Aviva DeKornfeld) 向情侣们伸出援手，寻找接受你们刚刚听到的故事采访的人时，她遇到的其中一个人是一个名叫弗兰克·菲洛科莫 (Frank Filocomo) 的人。

He's trying to navigate his way through the rocky shoals of this gender divide.

他正试图在性别鸿沟的暗礁中找到出路。

So she talked to him, too, about what that's like.

所以她也和他谈论了那是什么样的感觉。

Last year, Frank had a date that went exactly the way you hope a first date goes.

去年，弗兰克的一次约会完全按照你希望的第一次约会的方式进行。

The conversation felt easy.

谈话感觉很轻松。

They made each other laugh.

他们互相逗笑。

And at the end of the date, they said good night-- no kiss-- Frank doesn't kiss on first dates-- and went home.

约会结束时，他们道了晚安——没有接吻——弗兰克在第一次约会时不会接吻——然后就回家了。

And then she was texting me right after the date-- had such a great time.

约会结束后她就给我发短信——玩得很开心。

When do we get to do this again?

我们什么时候才能再次这样做？

And we're exchanging ideas for what our next date is going to be.

我们正在就下一次约会的内容交换意见。

And then the morning of the second date, she messages me, and she said, I did some thinking.

然后第二次约会的早上，她给我发消息，她说，我做了一些思考。

And I would not like to go out with you again.

我也不想再和你出去了。

And--

还有——

What do you think is happening when she says that?

当她这么说时，你认为发生了什么？

Well, I didn't think.

嗯，我没想到。

I knew what happened.

我知道发生了什么事。

Oh.

哦。

What happened?

发生了什么？

Frank Filocomo What happened is that I have a very unique Italian last name.

弗兰克·菲洛科莫发生的事情是我有一个非常独特的意大利姓氏。

If you google me, I come right up.

如果你用谷歌搜索我，我就会马上出现。

I think I wrote, so you must have looked me up.

我想是我写的，所以你一定查过我。

And she said, yes.

她说，是的。

And she sent me a screenshot.

她给我发了一张截图。

And I went, ah, got it.

我就去了，啊，明白了。

[LAUGHS]

[笑]

The thing Frank's date had discovered about him-- he's a Republican, voted for Trump twice.

弗兰克的约会对象对他的发现是——他是一名共和党人，两次投票给特朗普。

The screenshot was of an article he'd written for a conservative magazine.

屏幕截图是他为一家保守派杂志撰写的一篇文章。

Trying to date in deep blue New York City as a registered Republican-- perhaps unsurprisingly, not so easy.

尝试以注册共和党人的身份在深蓝色的纽约约会——也许并不令人惊讶，但并不那么容易。

He knows better than to lead with his politics.

他比用他的政治来领导更清楚。

He intentionally leaves it off his dating profile.

他故意将其从约会资料中删除。

But even so, sometimes, Frank can't even get past the texting phase and on to the actual date.

但即便如此，有时弗兰克甚至无法通过发短信的阶段并进入实际的约会阶段。

A lot of women have said, OK, you seem great, and I'd like to meet you and go on a date.

很多女人都说，好吧，你看起来很棒，我想认识你并去约会。

But first, who did you vote for?

但首先，你投票给了谁？

Or what are your politics?

或者你的政治观点是什么？

Oh, really?

哦真的吗？

Frank Filocomo And then that's when I--

弗兰克·菲洛科莫然后就在那时我——

What do you say?

你说什么？

Frank Filocomo I say that I'm an independent thinker.

弗兰克·菲洛科莫我说我是一个独立的思想家。

And--

还有——

[LAUGHS] That's really coded as right-wing.

[笑]这确实是右翼的代号。

Exactly.

确切地。

And-- Aviva DeKornfeld You might as well just say, I voted for Donald Trump.

而且——Aviva DeKornfeld 你不妨说，我投票给了唐纳德·特朗普。

Yeah, and I have.

是的，我有。

Aviva DeKornfeld And then what do they say?

Aviva DeKornfeld 然后他们说什么？

They say, well, I can't do it.

他们说，好吧，我做不到。

Can't do it.

做不到。

By Frank's estimate, 40 to 50 women have canceled their dates with him upon discovering his politics.

据弗兰克估计，有 40 到 50 名女性在发现他的政治倾向后取消了与他的约会。

Having been born and raised in Brooklyn, Frank has this sort of odd problem on his hands, because he basically fits in, unless he's talking.

弗兰克在布鲁克林出生和长大，他遇到了这种奇怪的问题，因为他基本上融入其中，除非他说话。

Everyone I've ever met has told me that they think I'm some Bernie progressive.

我见过的每个人都告诉我，他们认为我是伯尼的进步派。

I strike people as being left-wing.

我给人的印象是左翼。

Yeah.

是的。

Well, you live in Brooklyn.

嗯，你住在布鲁克林。

And you have little glasses, so.

而且你的眼镜很小，所以。

I have little glasses and holes in my ears.

我的眼镜很小，耳朵上也有洞。

He used to have gauges.

他以前有仪表。

He also has a bunch of tattoos.

他还有一堆纹身。

He's a real mix of things.

他真是一个综合体。

He's got some punk in him.

他身上有一些朋克的气质。

But he's also nerdy, casually says words like "verklempt" and "pugilistic." But you can't see any of his edge today.

但他也很书呆子，会随意地说“verklempt”和“pugilistic”之类的词。但今天你看不到他的任何优势。

Came straight from his job at a right-wing nonprofit, so he's in his full conservative drag-- suit, tie, token fun socks.

他刚从一家右翼非营利组织的工作中出来，所以他一身保守的打扮——西装、领带、象征性的有趣的袜子。

Frank's been a conservative since he was little.

弗兰克从小就是一个保守派。

He grew up in a right-leaning household and proudly wore a McCain-Palin button on his backpack at school when he was 11.

他在一个右倾家庭中长大，11 岁时在学校的背包上自豪地佩戴了麦凯恩-佩林徽章。

The main thing that makes Frank a conservative these days, he says, is that national sovereignty is extremely important to him, meaning he thinks we should close the border, build a wall if we need to, anything to discourage undocumented immigrants from coming here.

他说，如今让弗兰克成为保守派的主要原因是国家主权对他来说极其重要，这意味着他认为我们应该关闭边境，如果需要的话修建隔离墙，采取一切措施阻止无证移民来到这里。

Otherwise, basically, he's one of those fiscally conservative, socially liberal guys.

除此之外，基本上，他是那些财政上保守、社会上自由的人之一。

But his dates mostly care about that conservative part.

但他的约会对象主要关心的是保守的部分。

He remembers this one first date that really kind of stung because he was particularly excited about her.

他记得第一次约会真的有点刺痛，因为他对她特别兴奋。

They were at a bar, bantering back and forth.

他们在一家酒吧里，互相开玩笑。

And then she said, so what do you do for work?

然后她说，那你做什么工作呢？

And there's kind of no way around that, you know?

没有办法解决这个问题，你知道吗？

I could be super ambiguous and say, oh, I work for a nonprofit.

我可能会非常模棱两可地说，哦，我为非营利组织工作。

Yeah.

是的。

Frank Filocomo But then that lends itself to, OK, well, which nonprofit?

弗兰克·菲洛科莫但这适用于哪个非营利组织？

Right.

正确的。

Aviva DeKornfeld Frank told her he worked for a branch of the famously conservative outlet The National Review, where he occasionally writes.

阿维瓦·德科恩菲尔德·弗兰克 (Aviva DeKornfeld Frank) 告诉她，他在著名的保守派媒体《国家评论》(The National Review) 的一个分部工作，偶尔在那里撰稿。

His date thought he meant The Nation, which is kind of the opposite.

他的约会对象以为他指的是“国家”，但事实恰恰相反。

And then I clarified, no, a little different.

然后我澄清说，不，有点不同。

I said we're more on the right, [CHUCKLES] which is my euphemistic way of saying we're conservative, because we are.

我说我们更偏右，[咯咯笑]这是我委婉地说我们是保守派的方式，因为我们确实是保守派。

And I said that.

我就是这么说的。

And immediately, her whole demeanor changed.

顿时，她整个人的气质都变了。

Like, what?

比如，什么？

She leans back in her chair or something?

她靠在椅子上什么的？

Yeah.

是的。

Yup, yup.

是的，是的。

Body language changed.

肢体语言发生了变化。

And she said, well, so you're a conservative.

她说，好吧，所以你是个保守派。

They were only 20 minutes into the date and decided to call it a night.

约会才开始20分钟，他们就决定到此为止。

I actually planned on walking her out or walking her to the train station.

我实际上打算送她出去或送她去火车站。

And so I said, OK, let me get the bill.

所以我说，好吧，让我来结账。

And I go up to the bar to get the bill.

然后我去酒吧结账。

And then I came back, and she was gone.

然后我回来了，她却不见了。

Frank thought maybe she'd gone to the bathroom.

弗兰克想也许她去洗手间了。

But his date had scooted to the bar and arrived with a helmet.

但他的约会对象已经快步来到酒吧，并戴着头盔。

Frank noticed the helmet was also gone.

弗兰克注意到头盔也不见了。

I'm thinking, I don't think she took her helmet to the bathroom.

我在想，我不认为她把头盔带到了浴室。

But I said, let me give it a few minutes, you know.

但我说，让我等几分钟，你知道。

And I gave it a few minutes, and I said, she left.

我给了几分钟时间，然后我说，她离开了。

It does hurt.

确实很痛。

And when I say this to people, I don't mean to make it into a pity thing.

当我对人们说这句话时，我并不是想让它成为一件遗憾的事情。

It's not like this is being-- conservative is some immutable characteristic, right?

这并不是说保守是某种一成不变的特征，对吧？

I don't want people to feel bad for me.

我不想让人们为我感到难过。

But it does hurt, because to me, it's like, who am I?

但这确实很伤人，因为对我来说，这就像，我是谁？

So I'm 27.

所以我27岁了。

After 27 years of existence, if my identity boils down to being a conservative and a registered Republican, then that's a sad 27 years that I've lived.

存在了 27 年之后，如果我的身份归结为保守派和注册共和党人，那么我度过了悲伤的 27 年。

That's really sad.

这真是令人难过。

Frank's a registered Republican.

弗兰克是一名注册共和党人。

But to him, that's the least interesting thing about him.

但对他来说，这是他最无趣的事情。

Here are some things that Frank would like people to know about him.

以下是弗兰克希望人们了解他的一些事情。

He plays jazz guitar.

他弹爵士吉他。

He has a very old cat, 17 years old, who is still in remarkably good health.

他有一只17岁的老猫，但健康状况仍然非常好。

He's also obsessed with aquariums.

他还痴迷于水族馆。

He has four of them in his studio apartment.

他的单间公寓里有四个。

The stuff that Frank thinks should matter is the way you comport yourself in the world.

弗兰克认为最重要的是你在这个世界上的表现方式。

Are you polite to wait staff?

你对服务员有礼貌吗？

Do you hold the door for people?

你为人们把门吗？

Do you check in on your friends when they're sick?

当你的朋友生病时，你会去看望他们吗？

Most of a relationship, he says, is not about politics.

他说，大部分关系与政治无关。

And so he wants the women he dates to see those other parts of him, not be blinded by his party affiliation.

因此，他希望与他约会的女性能够看到他的其他部分，而不是被他的政党背景所蒙蔽。

So he's tried various tactics over the years to get around it-- downplaying, addressing it head on and making a case for himself.

因此，多年来他尝试了各种策略来解决这个问题——淡化问题、正面解决问题并为自己辩护。

Once, since women kept googling him and finding his writing, he even gave a fake last name.

有一次，由于女人们不断在谷歌上搜索他并找到他的作品，他甚至给出了一个假姓氏。

But that made me feel terrible about myself.

但这让我对自己感到很糟糕。

I asked Frank, why not just date conservative women?

我问弗兰克，为什么不只和保守的女性约会呢？

He insisted the conservative dating pool in New York City is simply too small.

他坚称纽约市保守的约会群体太小了。

There's a filter on the dating app Hinge that you can pay for that does let you filter for political preference.

约会应用程序 Hinge 上有一个可以付费的过滤器，可以让你过滤政治偏好。

He did try that once.

他确实尝试过一次。

And I realized that it was meaningless, you know?

我意识到这毫无意义，你知道吗？

Hmm.

唔。

Frank Filocomo I'm attracted to people for other reasons.

Frank Filocomo 我被人吸引还有其他原因。

In fact, I would put politics probably at the end.

事实上，我可能会把政治放在最后。

That's crazy!

太疯狂了！

Frank Filocomo Why is that crazy?

弗兰克·菲洛科莫为什么这么疯狂？

Because the thing that should be at the end is, like, "my favorite color is green."

因为最后应该是“我最喜欢的颜色是绿色”。

That's more important.

那更重要。

Aviva DeKornfeld No, it's not.

艾维瓦·德科恩菲尔德不，不是的。

Why?

为什么？

Frank Filocomo Well, I'm tempted to push it back on you and say, why is politics important?

弗兰克·菲洛科莫：好吧，我很想反驳你说，为什么政治很重要？

It's not important.

这并不重要。

I don't think so at all, actually.

事实上我根本不这么认为。

Yeah, but do you think that politics is less important to you because some of the policies that you might be voting for directly impact you in a less personal way than they impact the women that you want to date?

是的，但是你是否认为政治对你来说不那么重要，因为你可能投票支持的一些政策直接影响你，而不是影响你想约会的女性？

Oh, maybe.

哦，也许吧。

I think that's part of it.

我认为这是其中的一部分。

And I have a lot of empathy for people who are impacted more directly.

我对那些受到更直接影响的人深表同情。

But I think that I look at my day-to-day life, and I'll walk through a door and someone-- or I'll hold the door for someone, and they'll walk through and they won't say thank you.

但我想，看看我的日常生活，我会穿过一扇门和某人——或者我会为某人扶着门，他们会走过，但他们不会说谢谢。

And I go, what was that?

我走了，那是什么？

What was that about?

那是关于什么的？

It's stuff like that, little interpersonal interactions, that mean something to me, you know?

诸如此类的事情，小小的人际互动，对我来说意义重大，你知道吗？

Or--

或者——

But to you, but not to the people that you're dating.

但对你来说，而不是对你正在约会的人。

I'm sure the women you're dating would be much-- it's much more important to them to be able to get an abortion than have a door held for them.

我确信与你约会的女性对她们来说，能够堕胎比为她们关门更重要。

Oh, sure.

哦，当然。

But I'm one out of 340 million people.

但我只是 3.4 亿人中的一员。

I'm not effectuating policy or something.

我不是在执行政策或其他什么。

I can see why his dates don't see it that way.

我明白为什么他的约会对象不这么看。

I have some news to end this story with, which is that, after dozens of dates, Frank is actually seeing someone.

我有一个消息可以结束这个故事，那就是，在几十次约会之后，弗兰克实际上正在和某人约会。

It's new, but it seems to be going well.

这是新的，但似乎进展顺利。

She's a lefty, and she knows all about his views.

她是个左撇子，她知道他的一切想法。

Politics actually came up on their first date.

事实上，政治在他们第一次约会时就出现了。

It's been a few months now, and they've had a lot of conversations about politics.

几个月过去了，他们已经进行了很多关于政治的对话。

Frank told me his girlfriend's voting for Kamala Harris.

弗兰克告诉我他的女朋友投票给卡马拉·哈里斯。

And the idea that Frank might vote for Trump, that really, really bothers her.

弗兰克可能投票给特朗普的想法真的非常让她烦恼。

Recently, with the election coming up, they had one particularly hard conversation about it.

最近，随着选举的临近，他们就此进行了一次特别艰难的谈话。

She said, we care for each other, and we obviously enjoy being around each other.

她说，我们互相关心，而且我们显然很喜欢和彼此在一起。

And we have, for the past four or five months, however long it's been.

在过去的四五个月里，无论时间有多长，我们都是如此。

And I don't think-- she said that she doesn't think it's a deal-breaker for her, but it's something that concerns her, you know?

我不认为——她说她不认为这对她来说是一个破坏交易的事情，但这是她关心的事情，你知道吗？

And I don't take that lightly.

我不会掉以轻心。

So it's made me do a lot of thinking.

所以这让我做了很多思考。

And what'd you say?

你说什么？

Frank Filocomo I said that I want you to know that I hear you.

弗兰克·菲洛科莫我说过我想让你知道我听到了你的声音。

It was emotional.

这是情绪化的。

I think we were both a little verklempt.

我想我们都有点虚弱。

His girlfriend kept saying, Trump's a rapist.

他的女朋友一直说，特朗普是个强奸犯。

You've got to vote for the whole person, not just the policies you like.

你必须投票给整个人，而不仅仅是你喜欢的政策。

These conversations with his girlfriend and other people have actually moved him.

这些与女友以及其他人的对话，其实让他很感动。

And so Frank is thinking of voting third party this election, which may have more meaning in his relationship than it does for our country, thanks to the fucking electoral college.

所以弗兰克正在考虑在这次选举中投票给第三方，这对他的关系来说可能比对我们国家更有意义，这要感谢该死的选举团制度。

Like most of us, Frank doesn't live in a swing state.

和我们大多数人一样，弗兰克并不生活在摇摆不定的状态。

Aviva DeKornfeld.

阿维娃·德科恩菲尔德。

We first heard about Frank in a story in The Guardian.

我们第一次听说弗兰克是在《卫报》的一篇报道中。

["VOTE!" BY THE LINDA LINDAS] Credits Ira Glass Well, our program was produced today by Bim Adewunmi.

[“投票！”作者：LINDA LINDAS] 鸣谢 Ira Glass 嗯，今天我们的节目是由 Bim Adewunmi 制作的。

The people who put together today's show include Jendayi Bonds, Zoe Chace, Michael Comite, Henry Larson, Tobin Low, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.

今天节目的制作人包括 Jendayi Bonds、Zoe Chace、Michael Comite、Henry Larson、Tobin Low、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。

Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.

我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。

Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.

我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Just a heads-up to our Life Partners, there is a new bonus episode this week that's out that you will find in your feed.

请注意我们的生活伙伴，本周有一个新的奖励剧集，您可以在您的动态中找到。

Everybody else, if you want to sign up and get this bonus content and other stuff, go to thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.

其他人，如果您想注册并获得此奖励内容和其他内容，请访问 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners。

Thanks this week to Life Partners Kelly Darnell, Ken Erwin, Lauren Cahill Fitzsimmons, Lawrence Lin, Rob Nero, Laurel Paul, and Jeanie Thomas.

本周感谢生活伙伴 Kelly Darnell、Ken Erwin、Lauren Cahill Fitzsimmons、Lawrence Lin、Rob Nero、Laurel Paul 和 Jeanie Thomas。

Thank you, guys.

谢谢你们，伙计们。

Thanks, as always, to our program's confounder, Mr. Torey Malatia-- always comparing himself to Mr. Potato Head.

一如既往地感谢我们节目的混杂者托里·马拉蒂亚先生——总是将自己与土豆头先生进行比较。

I have little glasses and holes in my ears.

我的眼镜很小，耳朵上也有洞。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

["VOTE!" BY THE LINDA LINDAS] This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

[“投票！”作者：LINDA LINDAS] 《This American Life》 This American Life 是与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作的，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。

中文为机器翻译，仅供参考。