844: This Is the Case of Henry Dee - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #844 | October 17, 2025 844: This Is the Case of Henry Dee Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 844 集 | 2025 年 10 月 17 日 844：亨利·迪伊的情况 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
So this is going to be one of those shows where I'm just going to say a few things here and then get out of the way.
所以这将是我只想在这里说几句话然后就走开的节目之一。
It's based on a single, kind of a remarkable recording of a thing that happens all over the country, but you never really get to hear it.
它是基于一个单一的、某种非凡的录音，记录了全国各地发生的事情，但你永远不会真正听到它。
It's a parole hearing in Illinois-- 13 people in a small room having to decide, should a man be released from prison?
这是伊利诺伊州的假释听证会——一间小房间里的 13 个人必须决定，一名男子是否应该被释放？
This fact surprised me.
这个事实让我感到惊讶。
Parole hearings, the system where somebody with a long sentence comes before somebody and gets a chance to get out, that's been abolished in about a third of all the states.
假释听证会是一种让被判长期刑期的人来到另一个人面前并有机会出狱的制度，但这一制度已在大约三分之一的州被废除。
Most other states have limited it in various ways.
大多数其他州都以各种方式对其进行限制。
The reasons for that-- people in prison and their advocates said it was really subjective, racially biased, unfair.
原因是监狱里的人和他们的支持者说这确实是主观的、种族偏见的、不公平的。
There was no way to appeal the decisions.
无法对这些决定提出上诉。
They said too few people were being set free.
他们说获释的人太少了。
Conservatives, meanwhile, found it too lenient.
与此同时，保守派认为它过于宽松。
They said too many people were being set free.
他们说有太多人被释放。
So very few people get out of prison thanks to a parole board hearing determining if it's time for their incarceration to end, though right now, there is a lot of talk about expanding the use of parole boards, making more people eligible.
因此，很少有人能够通过假释委员会听证会确定是否该结束监禁而出狱，尽管现在有很多关于扩大假释委员会的使用，使更多的人有资格的讨论。
There's a bill in the New York State Assembly, two competing bills in Illinois, and they're in other states, too.
纽约州议会有一项法案，伊利诺伊州有两项相互竞争的法案，其他州也有这项法案。
Reporter Ben Austen got interested in the question at the heart of all this-- what is actually happening in those parole board hearings?
记者本·奥斯汀对这一切的核心问题感兴趣——假释委员会听证会到底发生了什么？
How do they make these monumental decisions?
他们是如何做出这些重大决定的？
What sways them?
是什么动摇了他们？
What doesn't?
什么不可以？
These boards are trying to adjudicate these very squishy, nearly impossible questions, like when is a person rehabilitated?
这些委员会正在试图裁决这些非常棘手、几乎不可能的问题，比如一个人什么时候可以康复？
How can you tell?
你怎么知道？
When should a long prison sentence end?
长期监禁何时结束？
This next question is almost too grand to say out loud, but it is in there, too-- what is justice?
下一个问题几乎太大了，无法大声说出来，但它也在那里——什么是正义？
All this plays out in this weird backwater of the judicial system that doesn't get a lot of scrutiny.
所有这一切都在司法系统这个奇怪的死水里上演，没有受到太多的审查。
Can you remember the last time you saw a news story-- any news story-- about a parole board hearing?
您还记得上次看到有关假释委员会听证会的新闻报道（任何新闻报道）是什么时候吗？
And for all the TV dramas about-- I have to say-- almost every aspect of the criminal justice system in all of its parts, there is none set in a parole board.
我不得不说，所有关于刑事司法系统各个方面的电视剧几乎都没有假释委员会的内容。
Ben lives in Illinois and spent more than a year going to every parole board hearing there.
本住在伊利诺伊州，花了一年多的时间参加那里的每个假释委员会听证会。
They happen once a month, each one looking at 5 or 10 cases.
他们每月进行一次，每次研究 5 或 10 个案例。
And he put together what you're about to hear.
他把你将要听到的内容放在一起。
The man they're considering for release in this case is 72 years old, been locked up for almost 50 years-- most of his life.
在本案中，他们考虑释放的男子今年 72 岁，已被关押了近 50 年——这是他一生中的大部分时间。
The parole board has some information about the case, but definitely not everything you would want.
假释委员会有一些有关此案的信息，但绝对不是您想要的所有信息。
That's part of what makes it so interesting listening to this, hearing how they deal with that.
这就是听这个、听他们如何处理这个问题如此有趣的部分原因。
This is actually one of the hearings that Ben sat through on his very first day going to these hearings.
这实际上是本在参加听证会的第一天参加的听证会之一。
Basically, he and his producer, Bill Healy, showed up, threw two recorders on the table in the middle of the room, and captured this conversation that you're about to hear.
基本上，他和他的制片人比尔·希利出现了，把两台录音机扔在房间中间的桌子上，并捕捉到了你将要听到的这段对话。
And it just stuck with him, this case-- not just the difficulty of the decision that they had to make or all the stuff that they wished they knew but didn't know, but the ruling they came to stuck with him.
这个案子让他难以忘怀——不仅是他们必须做出的决定的难度，或者他们希望知道但不知道的所有事情，而且他们做出的裁决也让他难以忘怀。
OK, enough said.
好吧，说得够多了。
Here's Ben Austen.
这是本·奥斯汀。
I'm surprised by how plain the hearing room is, how small.
我对听证室如此简陋、如此小感到惊讶。
There's barely enough space to fit a wood conference table.
空间几乎不足以容纳一张木质会议桌。
And squeezed around it, 13 board members are sitting elbow to elbow.
13 名董事会成员挤在它周围，肩并肩地坐着。
These are people who spend a lot of time together.
这些人花很多时间在一起。
They're from different parts of the state.
他们来自该州的不同地区。
And in between the cases, they debate things like who has worse traffic, worse snow.
在这两种情况之间，他们会争论谁的交通状况更差、降雪更严重等问题。
You guys don't get it like we get it in Peoria.
你们不像我们在皮奥里亚那样明白。
(SUBJECT) BOARD MEMBER 1: I don't know.
（主题）董事会成员 1：我不知道。
We're still about 50 miles south.
我们仍向南行驶约 50 英里。
Yeah, you don't get it.
是的，你不明白。
Ben Austen They tease each other about being long-winded.
本·奥斯汀 他们互相取笑对方啰嗦。
(SUBJECT) BOARD MEMBER 2: Keep it short, Vonetta.
（主题）董事会成员 2：保持简短，Vonetta。
Remember that.
请记住这一点。
Oh, look at you tell me to keep it short.
哦，看你告诉我要简短一点。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
(SUBJECT) BOARD MEMBER 2: Who said that?
（主题）董事会成员 2：谁说的？
They hunch over laptops and coffee cups and fat accordion files filled with case documents that go back way into the previous century.
他们弯腰看着笔记本电脑、咖啡杯和厚厚的手风琴文件，里面装满了可以追溯到上个世纪的案件文件。
There's a former public school principal and a high school guidance counselor, former prosecutors, and three retired cops.
其中包括一名前公立学校校长和一名高中辅导员、前检察官和三名退休警察。
By law, the parole board includes both Democrats and Republicans.
根据法律，假释委员会包括民主党人和共和党人。
They're appointed by the governor, approved by the state senate.
他们由州长任命，并经州参议院批准。
And it's a full-time job in Illinois.
这是伊利诺伊州的一份全职工作。
They're currently paid about $100,000 a year.
目前他们的年薪约为10万美元。
OK, the next case is Mr. Henry Dee.
好的，下一个案例是亨利·迪伊先生。
Ms. Martinez is recognized.
马丁内斯女士被认出了。
The hearing starts.
听证会开始。
The chairman acknowledges Virginia Martinez, one of the board members.
董事长认可了董事会成员之一弗吉尼亚·马丁内斯 (Virginia Martinez)。
She's seated near the head of the table.
她坐在靠近桌头的位置。
And she begins to talk about the person they're considering for release.
她开始谈论他们正在考虑释放的人。
This is the case of Henry Dee, number C01657.
亨利·迪伊 (Henry Dee) 就是这种情况，编号 C01657。
Mr. Dee is currently 72 years of age, having been born on August 24, 1946.
迪伊先生出生于1946年8月24日，现年72岁。
I interviewed him at Stateville Correctional Center.
我在斯泰特维尔惩教中心采访了他。
If you look around the small conference room, one person you won't see is Henry Dee, the guy up for parole.
如果你环顾一下小会议室，你会发现亨利·迪伊（Henry Dee）是一个待假释的人。
He's still in a prison more than 100 miles away.
他还在一百多英里外的监狱里。
The way these hearings work, one board member travels to the prison and interviews the parole applicant.
这些听证会的运作方式是，一名委员会成员前往监狱采访假释申请人。
The pairings are chosen at random.
配对是随机选择的。
It was Martinez's turn.
轮到马丁内斯了。
Now, she'll walk her colleagues through the details of the case and what she learned in the interview.
现在，她将向同事们介绍此案的细节以及她在采访中了解到的情况。
And she'll give a recommendation for or against Dee's release.
她将提出支持或反对释放迪伊的建议。
The other board members don't have to follow it.
其他董事会成员不必遵守。
Often, they don't.
通常情况下，他们不会。
They'll debate, and after that, they'll vote.
他们将进行辩论，然后进行投票。
The whole thing takes less than an hour, and for some cases, way less.
整个过程不到一个小时，在某些情况下甚至更短。
Inmate Dee is serving 100 to 200 years for two counts of murder to run consecutively and 20 to 40 years for two counts of robbery.
囚犯迪伊因两项连续谋杀罪被判处 100 至 200 年徒刑，因两项抢劫罪被判处 20 至 40 年徒刑。
His projected discharge date is June 27, 2162.
他的预计出院日期是 2162 年 6 月 27 日。
Martinez says the release date is 2162.
马丁内斯说发布日期是 2162 年。
Dee was given up to 200 years.
迪伊被判处长达200年的徒刑。
It's what people in prison call "Buck Rogers time," like out of science fiction.
这就是监狱里的人们所说的“巴克·罗杰斯时间”，就像科幻小说中的一样。
Henry Dee-- that's his last name, D-E-E-- first came before the parole board in 1981.
亨利·迪（Henry Dee）——这是他的姓氏 D-E-E——于 1981 年首次出现在假释委员会面前。
People who are rejected get another hearing every one to five years.
被拒绝的人每隔一到五年就会举行一次听证会。
And Dee has had two dozen hearings since.
从那以后，迪伊举行了两打听证会。
To make parole, you need a majority of the board's votes.
要获得假释，您需要获得董事会的多数票。
Dee has never even come close.
迪伊从未接近过。
In fact, in all his years of coming up for consideration, only one board member has ever voted for release.
事实上，在他提出考虑的这些年里，只有一名董事会成员投票支持释放。
That's it-- just one.
就是这样——只有一个。
A big reason-- the severity of the long-ago crime.
一个重要的原因是——很久以前的犯罪行为的严重性。
The facts of the case-- in the early morning of August 17, 1971, cab driver Arthur Snyder stopped at his Chicago home after his evening shift.
案件事实——1971年8月17日凌晨，出租车司机亚瑟·斯奈德下完晚班后停在他芝加哥的家中。
He was accosted by inmate Dee and co-defendant James Sayles, who were armed and forced their way into the Snyders' apartment.
囚犯迪伊和同案被告詹姆斯·塞尔斯向他搭话，他们携带武器强行闯入斯奈德夫妇的公寓。
The details-- they're painful to listen to.
细节——听起来很痛苦。
The crime is brutal.
犯罪行为十分残酷。
If you're listening with kids, this is a heads-up.
如果您正在和孩子们一起听，请注意这一点。
Once inside, the offenders hogtied, gagged, and blindfolded Arthur Snyder, leaving him in the kitchen.
一进屋，罪犯就将阿瑟·斯奈德 (Arthur Snyder) 绑起来、堵住他的嘴，并蒙住他的眼睛，把他留在厨房里。
They then took Edith Snyder into the bedroom, where they bound, gagged, and blindfolded her.
然后他们把伊迪丝·斯奈德带进卧室，捆绑、塞住她的嘴，并蒙住她的眼睛。
This was a robbery.
这是一起抢劫。
The men stole some valuables.
这些人偷走了一些贵重物品。
And then--
然后——
The offenders then beat her to death with a claw hammer, brutally striking her about the face, skull, and body.
随后，歹徒用羊角锤将她打死，残酷地殴打她的脸部、头骨和身体。
They then returned to the kitchen, where they beat Arthur Snyder with the same hammer, striking him so hard that the hammer became embedded in his skull.
然后他们回到厨房，用同一把锤子殴打亚瑟·斯奈德，用力击打他，以至于锤子嵌入了他的头骨。
Mr. Snyder was 52 and his wife was 46 at the time of their murders.
谋杀案发生时，斯奈德先生 52 岁，他的妻子 46 岁。
Before leaving with a number of items taken from the apartment, the offenders turned on the gas jets in the oven and set the mattress on fire where Mrs. Snyder's body was laying.
在带着从公寓拿走的一些物品离开之前，罪犯打开了烤箱中的燃气喷嘴，并点燃了斯奈德夫人尸体所在的床垫。
There was evidence of rape, but no charges were brought.
有强奸证据，但没有提出指控。
They stole Arthur Snyder's car, his taxi, and drove off.
他们偷了阿瑟·斯奈德的车和出租车，然后开走了。
All this information is from Dee's original trial.
所有这些信息都来自迪伊最初的审判。
But listening to it in this room, it feels present tense, like these terrible events just happened.
但在这个房间里听，感觉很紧张，就像这些可怕的事件刚刚发生一样。
You quickly lose sight that this took place in 1971, that a half century has passed.
你很快就会忘记这发生在 1971 年，半个世纪过去了。
The inmate and co-defendant were tried together, found guilty in a jury trial.
囚犯和同案被告一起接受审判，并在陪审团审判中被判有罪。
The verdict was affirmed on appeal.
上诉后维持原判。
In considering release, board members weigh different factors-- public safety, the suffering of victims.
在考虑释放时，委员会成员权衡了不同的因素——公共安全、受害者的痛苦。
One of the most important things they want to hear is that the parole candidate feels remorse, that they're repentant, that in prison, they've changed, which is a big problem for Henry Dee, because he insists he can't say he's sorry-- another reason he's only ever gotten one vote in a couple of dozen parole hearings.
他们想听到的最重要的事情之一是假释候选人感到悔恨，他们悔悟了，在监狱里，他们已经改变了，这对亨利·迪伊来说是一个大问题，因为他坚持认为他不能说对不起——这也是他在几十场假释听证会上只获得一票的另一个原因。
The inmate's version is that he states and has always stated that he's innocent, that he's never killed anyone.
囚犯的版本是，他声称并且一直声称自己是无辜的，他从未杀过任何人。
He states that the blood that was found on his clothing was a minute amount, so small that it could only be tested once.
他表示，在他衣服上发现的血迹量很少，只能测试一次。
He had tried to get the blood tested again, and they told him that was impossible.
他曾尝试再次进行血液检测，但他们告诉他这是不可能的。
He claims that he had given a palm print that didn't match the bloody print on the hammer and that that evidence has disappeared.
他声称他留下的掌纹与锤子上的血迹不符，而且该证据已经消失。
He said he was never in the cab.
他说他从来没有坐过出租车。
He had gotten a call to meet Sayles and went to Sayles' South Side apartment.
他接到电话要见塞尔斯，然后去了塞尔斯位于南区的公寓。
Sayles is James Sayles, the other person charged with this crime.
塞尔斯是詹姆斯·塞尔斯，另一名被指控犯有此罪的人。
Dee says he met Sayles at a writers' workshop.
迪伊说他是在作家研讨会上认识塞尔斯的。
They became friends.
他们成了朋友。
They volunteered together at a free breakfast program run by the Black Panthers.
他们一起在黑豹党组织的免费早餐项目中做志愿者。
So that night, Dee says, they were hanging out at Sayles' apartment.
迪伊说，那天晚上，他们在塞尔斯的公寓里闲逛。
Then later, Sayles was walking inmate back to the train.
后来，塞尔斯送囚犯走回火车。
That is when they were arrested.
就在那时，他们被捕了。
The cab driver and his wife were white and lived on Chicago's North Side.
出租车司机和他的妻子是白人，住在芝加哥北区。
Henry Dee and James Sayles were Black and lived miles away on the city's South Side.
亨利·迪伊和詹姆斯·塞尔斯是黑人，住在几英里外的城市南区。
The taxi was found later on the South Side, but Dee says he and his friend had nothing to do with it.
后来在南区发现了这辆出租车，但迪伊说他和他的朋友与这起事件无关。
The police arrested the wrong guys, framed them.
警察逮捕了错误的人，并陷害了他们。
He's been saying the same thing for 48 years.
48 年来他一直在说同样的话。
At the trial, the inmate, Dee, did testify, and he testified that he and Sayles left Sayles' apartment at about 2:35 AM and were crossing 62nd Street when they had to hurry to avoid a speeding car.
在审判中，犯人迪伊确实作证，他作证说，他和塞尔斯在凌晨 2 点 35 分左右离开塞尔斯的公寓，穿过 62 街时，他们不得不赶紧躲避一辆超速行驶的汽车。
Moments later, they were called over to a police car and questioned as to their identity and activities in the area.
不久之后，他们被叫到警车上，并询问他们的身份和在该地区的活动。
He testified that the police then took both Sayles and he to a cab parked in Washington Park.
他作证说，警察随后将塞尔斯和他带到了停在华盛顿公园的一辆出租车上。
They both denied any knowledge of the cab.
他们都否认对出租车有任何了解。
According to inmate Dee's testimony, they were kicked and beaten by the police.
根据囚犯迪伊的证词，他们遭到警察的拳打脚踢。
The police then took items out of the cab and threw them on the ground.
随后，警察从驾驶室中取出物品并扔在地上。
The police also added whatever the two had in their pockets to the same pile.
警方还将两人口袋里的所有物品都归为同一堆。
OK.
好的。
So Dee says the police took them to the cab, planted evidence on them, and beat them.
迪伊说，警察把他们带到出租车上，在他们身上放置证据，然后殴打他们。
The police say they saw them running from the cab.
警察说他们看到他们从出租车里跑出来。
At trial, a doctor undercut Dee's version of events.
在审判中，一名医生削弱了迪伊对事件的说法。
A doctor testified at trial that the two had not said anything about being beaten and did not observe any recent injuries or bruises on the defendants at the time of their arrest.
一名医生在审判中作证说，两人没有说过任何关于被殴打的事情，也没有观察到被告被捕时最近有任何受伤或瘀伤。
The inmate states that everyone he has asked to look into the case has said they can't because there is no DNA and everyone involved in the case is dead.
这名囚犯表示，他要求调查此案的每个人都说他们不能，因为没有 DNA，而且与此案有关的每个人都已经死了。
He said he could have pled guilty and was offered 20 to 40 years, but he didn't take it because he's innocent.
他说他本可以认罪，并被判处 20 至 40 年徒刑，但他没有接受，因为他是无辜的。
He believes he would have been out by now.
他相信他现在已经出去了。
So what to believe after all these years-- Henry Dee's version or the police version?
那么这么多年过去了，该相信什么——亨利·迪的版本还是警方的版本呢？
A parole hearing isn't a trial.
假释听证会不是审判。
These 13 people are not here to decide whether Henry Dee is innocent or guilty.
这 13 个人不是来决定亨利·迪伊是否有罪的。
Parole was set up to assess everything that's happened since a conviction.
假释的设立是为了评估定罪后发生的一切。
But of course, as the board wrestles with accountability and remorse, it's impossible to ignore that question of guilt.
但当然，当董事会努力应对责任和悔恨时，不可能忽视内疚问题。
What if he never committed the crime?
如果他从未犯罪怎么办？
How could he show regret?
他怎么能表现出后悔呢？
Another thing the board is supposed to consider-- the person's behavior in prison.
董事会应该考虑的另一件事是该人在监狱中的行为。
How has he conducted himself there for the past half century?
半个世纪以来，他在那里的表现如何？
Has he used the time productively?
他有效地利用了这段时间吗？
Short answer-- yes, he has.
简短的回答——是的，他有。
That's where Virginia Martinez goes next.
这就是弗吉尼亚·马丁内斯下一步要去的地方。
Henry Dee has basically been what they call a model prisoner, with two rather spectacular exceptions.
亨利·迪伊基本上是他们所说的模范囚犯，但有两个相当引人注目的例外。
These floored me when I heard them.
当我听到这些话时，我感到很震惊。
First one--
第一个——
In 1979, inmate Dee escaped from custody of the Department of Corrections while at the U of I Hospital for kidney tests.
1979 年，囚犯迪伊在伊利诺伊大学医院接受肾脏检查时逃离惩教署。
That's right.
这是正确的。
He escaped from prison.
他越狱了。
This was early in his incarceration.
这是他入狱初期的事。
He was able to do so by using what looked like a homemade weapon.
他能够通过使用看似自制的武器来做到这一点。
He stated that he handcuffed the two officers and left the keys and their weapons in the trash can so that when someone went in, they could uncuff them.
他说，他给两名警察戴上手铐，并将钥匙和武器留在垃圾桶里，以便当有人进去时，他们可以解开他们的手铐。
He was apprehended the next day at a motel with his girlfriend.
第二天，他和女友在一家汽车旅馆被捕。
It's a crazy story.
这是一个疯狂的故事。
He made a fake gun, like a stage prop, and when he locked up the officers, he was polite.
他做了一把假枪，就像舞台道具一样，当他关押军官时，他很有礼貌。
He didn't take their guns.
他没有拿走他们的枪。
He left them, along with the keys, somewhere easy to find.
他把它们和钥匙一起留在了容易找到的地方。
He wasn't even charged with a crime, though they did punish him by moving him out of the general prison population for a year.
他甚至没有被指控犯罪，尽管他们确实将他从普通监狱中移出一年作为惩罚。
It's hard to gauge how this will play with the parole board, especially since, a year later, Henry Dee tried again-- another attempted escape.
很难判断假释委员会将如何处理这件事，尤其是一年后，亨利·迪伊再次尝试——另一次越狱尝试。
He tried to walk away from MCC, the Metropolitan Corrections Center, while he was downtown in federal court on a civil rights case that I think he and others had filed, which he said he won.
当他在市中心联邦法院审理一起民权案件时，他试图离开 MCC（大都会惩教中心），我认为他和其他人已经提起了该案件，他说他赢了。
So he tried to walk away, and the federal marshals caught and then charged him.
于是他试图走开，联邦法警抓住了他，然后指控他。
So he's got a three-year sentence on that.
所以他因此被判三年徒刑。
So he won and lost?
那么他赢了又输了？
Virginia Martinez Yes.
弗吉尼亚·马丁内斯 是的。
A board member makes a joke that Dee won and lost.
一位董事会成员开玩笑说迪伊赢了又输了。
The man's name is Pete Fisher.
这个人的名字叫皮特·费舍尔。
He's white, bald, a former police chief from Central Illinois.
他是白人，秃顶，是伊利诺伊州中部的前警察局长。
During his time on the board, he's voted against parole, like, 200 times, and for release in only a couple of cases.
在担任董事会成员期间，他大约 200 次投票反对假释，仅在少数情况下投票反对假释。
He tells me later, when I interview him, that what always matters most to him is the severity of the crime, no matter how much time has passed or how much someone has accomplished in prison.
后来，当我采访他时，他告诉我，对他来说最重要的是犯罪的严重程度，无论已经过去了多少时间，也不管某人在监狱里取得了多少成就。
Virginia Martinez goes on to describe Henry Dee's accomplishments.
弗吉尼亚·马丁内斯接着描述了亨利·迪伊的成就。
After those escape attempts in 1979 and 1980, she sees someone doing about as well in prison as anyone could hope.
在 1979 年和 1980 年的几次越狱之后，她看到有人在监狱里的表现与任何人所希望的一样好。
In the past 30 years, inmate's overall adjustment has been very positive.
30年来，服刑人员的整体调整是非常积极的。
He has received only four tickets.
他只收到四张票。
Tickets are disciplinary infractions.
罚单属于违纪行为。
And having just four of them over all that time is extraordinary.
而且在这段时间内只有四个人是很了不起的。
He's currently assigned to the dietary department and has previously worked in correctional industries, receiving certifications for working with sheet metal, which is where I think he made this-- what looked like a gun.
他目前被分配到饮食部门，之前曾在惩教行业工作，获得了使用金属板的认证，我认为这就是他制造这个看起来像枪的东西的地方。
He makes file cabinets and other metal furniture.
他制作文件柜和其他金属家具。
He has also worked in the canning plant.
他还曾在罐头厂工作过。
He has never posed a threat to others, except for the use of what looked like this weapon to escape.
他从来没有对别人造成过威胁，除了使用看起来像这种武器的东西逃跑之外。
In 1983, his attitude was described as energetic, friendly, and cooperative.
1983年，他的态度被描述为精力充沛、友好、合作。
In 1984, inmate's institutional adjustment was described as remarkable.
1984年，服刑人员的制度调整可谓是令人瞩目。
Since 1998, the words "model prisoner" have been used.
自1998年以来，“模范囚犯”一词一直被使用。
Because Henry Dee isn't there, he's like a distant character in all the stories swirling about.
因为亨利·迪伊不在那里，所以他就像所有故事中的一个遥远的角色。
He's turned into less a person than some abstraction of crime and punishment.
他不再是一个人，而是某种犯罪和惩罚的抽象概念。
But Martinez now gets to say what it was like to sit with him in the present, to talk with him, to get a sense of who he is today, at age 72.
但马丁内斯现在可以说出现在和他坐在一起、与他交谈、了解他 72 岁的今天是什么样的感觉。
He's got a lot of health issues.
他有很多健康问题。
The inmate is insulin-dependent and also suffers from hypertension, hyperactive thyroid, and abnormal heart rhythm.
该囚犯依赖胰岛素，还患有高血压、甲状腺功能亢进和心律失常。
He recently underwent-- I think it's a second surgery for his heart condition.
他最近接受了——我认为这是他因心脏病而接受的第二次手术。
When I interviewed him, his speech was slow and clear.
当我采访他时，他说话缓慢而清晰。
He was very cooperative and responsive to questions.
他非常合作并积极回答问题。
He had come with his accordion file of information.
他带来了他的手风琴信息档案。
He keeps all of his information in a file.
他将所有信息保存在一个文件中。
For people Henry Dee's age-- older than 65-- the arrest rate is really low.
对于亨利·迪伊这样的年龄——65 岁以上——来说，逮捕率确实很低。
Statistically, people age out of crime.
据统计，随着年龄的增长，人们不再犯罪。
That's just a fact.
这只是事实。
But the board still wants to know, if they do release him, that he's got a stable place to live, an income, a plan.
但董事会仍然想知道，如果他们真的释放了他，他是否有稳定的居住地、收入和计划。
His parole plan, he has always said that he wants to live with his mother, Ruby, in Chicago.
在他的假释计划中，他一直说他想和他的母亲鲁比一起住在芝加哥。
She's got to be in her 90s.
她已经90多岁了。
He says over 85, but that over 85 has been consistent over the years, so she's got to be 90-something.
他说85岁以上，但85岁以上多年来一直如此，所以她一定是90岁左右。
She requires a caretaker now.
她现在需要一个看护者。
He has been saving money for his and her needs and currently has over $11,000.
他一直在为自己和她的需要存钱，目前拥有超过 11,000 美元。
He believes that he can get work in either food service or sheet metal based on his experience and certifications.
他相信，根据他的经验和认证，他可以在食品服务或钣金领域找到工作。
Additionally, we received a letter at the end of January of an offer from Juan Rivera, a former Stateville inmate who was found to have been wrongfully convicted and won a $20 million civil rights suit based on that wrongful conviction.
此外，我们还在 1 月底收到一封来自史泰特维尔前囚犯胡安·里维拉 (Juan Rivera) 的邀请信，他被认定被错误定罪，并因错误定罪赢得了 2000 万美元的民权诉讼。
Mr. Rivera states that inmate Dee is, in great part, responsible for the person he is today.
里维拉先生表示，犯人迪伊在很大程度上要对他今天的成就负有责任。
He met inmate Dee while he entered Stateville, angry for having been convicted of the rape and murder of an 11-year-old girl, a crime that he did not commit.
他在进入斯泰特维尔时遇到了囚犯迪伊，迪伊因被判强奸和谋杀一名 11 岁女孩而感到愤怒，但他并没有犯下这一罪行。
He says inmate Dee taught him that he was not who the legal system portrayed him to be.
他说，囚犯迪伊告诉他，他并不是法律系统所描绘的那样。
He is now owner of Legacy Barber College and is a director of Justice for Just Us, a nonprofit providing support for innocent people who are exonerated and released from prison.
他现在是 Legacy Barber College 的老板，也是 Justice for Just Us 的董事，这是一个为被无罪释放的无辜者提供支持的非营利组织。
He offered inmate Dee a place to live in his home, a job with the Barber College, and whatever he needs.
他为囚犯迪伊提供了一个住所、一份在理发学院的工作以及他需要的一切。
Martinez is done presenting the case to her 12 colleagues around the table.
马丁内斯已经向坐在桌子旁的 12 名同事介绍了这个案例。
The other board members will get a chance to ask questions and deliberate before there's a vote.
其他董事会成员将有机会在投票前提出问题并进行审议。
I can't even tell at this point how Martinez is going to vote.
现在我什至不知道马丁内斯将如何投票。
But right now, she says, there are people who sent letters to the board who continue to oppose release.
但现在，她说，有些人给董事会写信，继续反对释放。
I don't know if it's the victims' family members or who.
我不知道是受害者家属还是谁。
She doesn't say.
她没有说。
I would ask that we go into executive session to discuss.
我要求我们进入执行会议进行讨论。
I'll second.
我就排第二吧
Craig Findley OK, we'll go in close.
克雷格·芬德利（Craig Findley）：好的，我们会继续讨论。
We'll excuse our visitors for a few minutes as we discuss protests.
在我们讨论抗议活动时，我们将向访客道歉几分钟。
The board chairman asks us to pick up our recorders from the table so they can discuss the protests in a closed session.
董事会主席要求我们从桌子上拿起录音机，以便他们可以在闭门会议上讨论抗议活动。
Ben Austen.
本·奥斯汀.
Coming up, the members of the parole board puzzle through everything you just heard, all the pros and cons of whether Henry Dee should go free, and they cast their votes.
接下来，假释委员会的成员们对你刚才听到的一切、亨利·迪伊是否应该获释的所有利弊进行了思考，然后他们投票了。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "This is the Case of Henry Dee," the story of a single parole hearing for a man who was incarcerated since he was 24 years old.
今天的节目“亨利·迪伊案”讲述了一名自 24 岁起就被监禁的男子的单次假释听证会的故事。
At the time of the hearing, he's 72 years old.
听证会时，他已经 72 岁了。
So here's where we are.
这就是我们现在的处境。
The parole board members have heard about the crime.
假释委员会成员听说了这起犯罪事件。
They've heard about how Henry Dee has used his years in prison.
他们听说了亨利·迪伊如何度过他在监狱里的岁月。
Now, they have to discuss and decide, should he be allowed out?
现在，他们必须讨论并决定，是否应该让他出去？
Again, here's Ben Austen.
再说一次，这是本·奥斯汀。
The board members take their seats again and settle in.
董事会成员再次入座并就座。
They have to decide whether, after 48 years behind bars, after this terrible crime, that some unquantifiable measure of justice has finally been served.
他们必须决定，在经历了 48 年的牢狱之灾之后，在这起可怕的罪行之后，某种无法量化的正义措施是否终于得到了伸张。
There's Henry Dee's incredible record in prison, too, and also his two escapes.
亨利·迪伊在监狱中也有令人难以置信的记录，还有他的两次越狱。
And then there's Dee's assertion that he's innocent.
然后迪伊坚称自己是无辜的。
It's maybe the biggest hurdle to voting for him.
这可能是投票给他的最大障碍。
Innocence at this point calls into question the work, in the past, of police, prosecutors, judges, and, also, all those parole boards dating back to the 1980s.
在这一点上，无罪使人们对过去的警察、检察官、法官以及所有可以追溯到 20 世纪 80 年代的假释委员会的工作提出质疑。
All of them would have needed to get it wrong.
他们所有人都可能会弄错。
As I mentioned, the co-defendant in this case was paroled in 2004.
正如我提到的，本案的同案被告于 2004 年被假释。
The hearing resumes.
听证会继续进行。
Virginia Martinez now has to give her recommendation for or against Henry Dee's release from prison.
弗吉尼亚·马丁内斯现在必须提出支持或反对亨利·迪伊出狱的建议。
How to decide?
如何决定？
Martinez previously worked in nonprofits representing women and children and American Latinos.
马丁内斯此前曾在代表妇女、儿童和美国拉丁裔的非营利组织工作。
She was actually one of the first two Latino lawyers ever to be licensed in Illinois, in 1975.
事实上，她是 1975 年伊利诺伊州首批获得执照的两名拉丁裔律师之一。
As far as how often people on this board vote for release, Martinez is somewhere in the middle.
就该委员会成员投票支持释放的频率而言，马丁内斯处于中间位置。
She sometimes talks about her fears of making what she calls a mistake, recommending someone for parole who goes on to commit another crime.
她有时会谈到她担心犯下她所说的错误，建议某人假释，而后者又会犯下另一项罪行。
And the crime in this case, she told me later, it gave her nightmares.
她后来告诉我，这起案件让她做了噩梦。
But she now tells her colleagues, she's open to the idea that Henry Dee might be telling the truth and police, prosecutors, judges, and previous parole boards might have gotten it wrong.
但她现在告诉她的同事，她愿意接受亨利·迪伊可能说的是实话，而警察、检察官、法官和以前的假释委员会可能弄错了。
I found it hard to believe that these two men convicted of what is absolutely-- has to be one of the most brutal and barbaric murders that we have, that they never exhibited any violence while incarcerated at Stateville, which you all know about.
我很难相信这两个人被判犯有绝对是我们所拥有的最残酷和野蛮的谋杀案之一，他们在斯泰特维尔被监禁期间从未表现出任何暴力行为，这一点你们都知道。
Even when they lost their appeal, an event that the psychiatrist and counselors predicted would set them off, neither became violent.
即使他们上诉失败（精神病医生和咨询师预测这一事件会引发他们的愤怒），两人也没有变得暴力。
Inmate Dee did escape and was disciplined.
囚犯迪伊确实逃脱并受到纪律处分。
He wasn't charged with the IDOC escape.
他没有被指控犯有 IDOC 越狱罪。
He did not harm the officers and did not take their weapons.
他没有伤害军官，也没有拿走他们的武器。
In the federal case, he tried to walk away-- again, no violence.
在联邦案件中，他试图走开——同样，没有暴力。
His release would show other inmates that there is hope.
他的释放将向其他囚犯表明还有希望。
I believe inmate Dee is ready to reenter society.
我相信囚犯迪伊已经准备好重返社会。
He has saved money, and he has a financial and other support from Juan Rivera.
他存了钱，并且得到了胡安·里维拉的经济和其他支持。
His institutional record, age, and physical health would be an indicator that he's not likely to re-offend.
他的机构记录、年龄和身体健康状况将表明他不太可能再次犯罪。
It's clear-- Martinez is going to vote for release, only Henry Dee's second vote ever.
很明显，马丁内斯将投票支持释放，这是亨利·迪伊有史以来第二次投票。
The board members now get to ask questions.
董事会成员现在可以提问。
Colleagues?
同事？
Donald Shelton Well, I don't want to get into retrying it, but you've had the case.
唐纳德·谢尔顿：好吧，我不想再重试，但你已经遇到了这个情况。
You've had the file.
你已经拿到了文件。
Is it your belief that he's innocent?
你相信他是无辜的吗？
Just curious.
只是好奇。
I don't know whether he is or he isn't.
我不知道他是还是不是。
I think it's possible.
我认为这是可能的。
You think it's possible he could be innocent?
你认为他有可能是无辜的吗？
Yes.
是的。
I mean, he had another case of an excellent record.
我的意思是，他还有另一个出色的记录。
He says he completely-- Sayles says he completely changed himself.
他说他完全——塞尔斯说他完全改变了自己。
Mr. Dee has completely changed--
迪伊先生完全变了——
[INAUDIBLE] Virginia Martinez --whoever he was--
[听不清] 维吉尼亚·马丁内斯——无论他是谁——
--at the time.
——当时。
I mean, he's now 73 years old.
我的意思是，他现在73岁了。
And if part of the goal of the Department of Corrections is to rehabilitate individuals, here is a person who has been rehabilitated.
如果惩教署的部分目标是让个人改过自新，那么这里就是一个已经改过自新的人。
Even if he is guilty and won't admit it, she's saying that whatever we think a long prison sentence is supposed to accomplish, after 48 years, he's done it.
即使他有罪并且不承认，她也表示，无论我们认为长期监禁应该达到什么目的，48 年后，他都做到了。
They should set him free.
他们应该释放他。
This gets at something so basic-- what is the purpose of punishment?
这就涉及到一个非常基本的问题——惩罚的目的是什么？
It's a question we, as a country, have never really answered.
作为一个国家，我们从未真正回答过这个问题。
And yet it's here for the board somehow to wrestle with.
然而，董事会仍需设法解决这个问题。
Mr. Ruggiero.
鲁杰罗先生。
Joseph Ruggiero I just have a couple questions in regard just to the actual innocence claim.
约瑟夫·鲁杰罗（Joseph Ruggiero） 我只是有几个关于实际无罪主张的问题。
The victim, Mr. Snyder, owned the cab, correct?
受害者斯奈德先生是出租车的主人，对吗？
Another board member seated a couple of feet from Martinez, Joseph Ruggiero.
另一位董事会成员约瑟夫·鲁杰罗 (Joseph Ruggiero) 坐在距离马丁内斯几英尺的地方。
He's white, a criminal prosecutor for 30 years.
他是白人，当了30年的刑事检察官。
And he starts to grill Martinez about the crime like he's got her on the witness stand.
他开始盘问马丁内斯有关犯罪的事情，就像他让她站在证人席上一样。
And was Dee, according to the opinion, found in possession of the victim's watch?
根据意见，迪伊是否被发现持有受害人的手表？
No, I think he had certificates or something.
不，我想他有证书什么的。
But again, Dee says that this stuff was inside the cab.
但迪伊再次说这些东西在驾驶室内。
And wasn't Dee found in possession of an 1893 buffalo head nickel that belonged to the victim?
迪伊不是被发现持有一枚属于受害人的 1893 年水牛头镍币吗？
There were some things that they found on him and some things that they found on Sayles.
他们在他身上发现了一些东西，在塞尔斯身上也发现了一些东西。
That's what they said.
他们就是这么说的。
And his criminal history, twice earlier that year-- two separate occasions-- he was charged with stealing a car, correct?
还有他的犯罪记录，那年早些时候两次——两次不同的场合——他被指控偷车，对吗？
This would have been the third time he was in a stolen car?
这已经是他第三次坐偷来的车了？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ben Austen Ruggiero seems like a clear no vote.
本·奥斯汀·鲁杰罗 (Ben Austen Ruggiero) 似乎明确表示反对。
Next board member with questions-- Donald Shelton, a police officer from downstate, the only Black Republican on the board.
下一位提出问题的董事会成员是来自州南部的警官唐纳德·谢尔顿，他是董事会中唯一的黑人共和党人。
And he also wants to revisit the police account of this arrest, which dates back to when Richard Nixon was president.
他还想重新审视警方对这次逮捕的描述，该描述可以追溯到理查德·尼克松担任总统时。
In my mind, there's a small vacuum in my understanding how they came to be arrested.
在我看来，我对他们是如何被捕的理解存在一个小小的真空。
The police saw this vehicle driving dark.
警察看到这辆车在黑暗中行驶。
The car pulled over, and these guys got out of the car.
车子靠边停了下来，这些人也下了车。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Yes.
是的。
Donald Shelton Were they arrested in the vicinity of the car?
唐纳德·谢尔顿 他们是在汽车附近被捕的吗？
Had they crossed the park?
他们穿过公园了吗？
Were they on the other side of town?
他们在城镇的另一边吗？
I don't understand--
我不明白——
He said-- Donald Shelton --how they connected them to the car.
他说——唐纳德·谢尔顿——他们如何将它们连接到汽车上。
I don't know the South Side well enough to know where the parking lot to the swimming pool of-- I think that's where it was.
我不太了解南区，不知道停车场到游泳池的位置——我想那就是那里。
It was near the swimming pool of Washington Park where they parked and then ran.
就在华盛顿公园的游泳池附近，他们在那里停车然后跑步。
That's what I'm just trying to figure out, where they got stopped in relation to the car, because that's kind of--
这就是我想弄清楚的，他们在与汽车相关的地方被拦住了，因为那是——
It was near-- it was near-- Ben Austen Compared to courtrooms, parole hearings can feel like there are no rules.
就在——就在——本·奥斯汀 与法庭相比，假释听证会感觉就像没有任何规则。
This was one of the reasons many states abolished it.
这是许多州废除它的原因之一。
Suddenly, here they are, debating the layout of Washington Park, something they could just look up on their phones.
突然，他们在这里讨论华盛顿公园的布局，他们只需在手机上即可查看。
It's unclear what any of this is getting them.
目前尚不清楚这会给他们带来什么。
The trial wrapped two generations ago.
审判在两代人前结束。
There's no new evidence.
没有新的证据。
And no one in this room was involved in the case.
而且这个房间里没有人与此案有关。
If this were a retrial, there would at least be witnesses, evidence.
如果重审的话，至少会有证人、证据。
But here, it's just circling the same old court documents.
但在这里，它只是围绕着同样的旧法庭文件。
And even if he is guilty, that's who parole is for, right?
即使他有罪，那也是假释的对象，对吧？
People who were found guilty, rightly or wrongly.
被判有罪的人，无论正确还是错误。
To decide whether, today, they're ready to rejoin society.
今天决定他们是否准备好重新融入社会。
But like in so many hearings I've seen, the board members again travel back in time to the original conviction.
但就像我见过的许多听证会一样，董事会成员再次回到最初的定罪。
So they were convicted.
所以他们被定罪了。
Donald Shelton I get that.
唐纳德·谢尔顿 我明白了。
That's why we're sitting here.
这就是我们坐在这里的原因。
So I'm not arguing about-- he says he was innocent.
所以我不是在争论——他说他是无辜的。
Ms. Martinez, you mentioned he claims he's innocent.
马丁内斯女士，你提到他声称自己是无辜的。
OK, has that remained consistent over the years?
好吧，多年来这种情况一直保持不变吗？
Absolutely yes.
绝对是的。
Johnson And he's had appeals--
约翰逊：他已经提出上诉——
He never said anything.
他什么也没说。
Johnson --and he's had other things, and that's all exhausted.
约翰逊——他还有其他事情，但都已经筋疲力尽了。
OK.
好的。
Was there any-- with your interview of him, was there any remorse on his part?
在您对他的采访中，他有任何悔恨吗？
Or I guess it's hard to have remorse if you're thinking--
或者我想如果你想的话就很难悔恨——
Exactly.
正是如此。
He just said, I have never killed anybody.
他只是说，我从来没有杀过任何人。
I didn't do this.
我没有这样做。
I have never killed anybody.
我从来没有杀过任何人。
Next, visitors are allowed to speak in support of parole or against it.
接下来，访客可以发表支持或反对假释的言论。
Sometimes, it's relatives of the victims.
有时，是受害者的亲属。
Their testimony is almost always crushing.
他们的证词几乎总是令人震惊。
I remember one guy.
我记得有一个人。
His father had been killed when he was a child.
当他还是个孩子的时候，他的父亲就被杀了。
He told me how hard it was to live with that, then to have to come back here every few years and hear the details of the crime again and again.
他告诉我，忍受这样的生活是多么困难，而且每隔几年就必须回到这里，一次又一次地听到犯罪的细节。
Other visitors include the lawyers for the parole candidates or their family members.
其他访客包括假释候选人的律师或其家人。
But that's not the case today.
但今天的情况并非如此。
Relatives of Arthur and Edith Snyder, the couple who was killed, aren't here.
被杀的夫妇亚瑟·斯奈德和伊迪丝·斯奈德的亲属并不在这里。
And Henry Dee doesn't have any family here either.
亨利·迪伊在这里也没有任何家人。
He doesn't even have a pro bono lawyer.
他甚至没有无偿律师。
Ms. Futorian, are you here to speak for Mr. Dee?
Futorian女士，您是来代表Dee先生发言的吗？
Only because he doesn't have a lawyer.
只是因为他没有律师。
And I'm not representing him, but--
我不代表他，但是——
But you are a lawyer.
但你是一名律师。
Ben Austen The woman who responds is sitting right next to me.
本·奥斯汀 做出回应的女人就坐在我旁边。
Her name's Aviva Futorian.
她的名字叫 Aviva Futorian。
She's in her 80s, and she advocates for parole candidates in Illinois, meeting with them in prison, trying to improve their chances.
她已经 80 多岁了，在伊利诺伊州为假释候选人辩护，在监狱里与他们会面，试图提高他们的机会。
For years, she attended nearly all of these hearings, writing up notes and sharing them in a newsletter.
多年来，她几乎参加了所有这些听证会，并写下笔记并在时事通讯中分享。
So the board chairman turns to her and asks, does she have anything that might offer some insight?
于是董事长转向她问道，她有什么可以提供一些见解吗？
It turns out, she does.
事实证明，她确实做到了。
A while ago, I was at Stateville, and one of the correctional officers came up to me and said he was a big fan of Henry Dee's.
不久前，我在斯泰特维尔，一位狱警走过来对我说，他是亨利·迪伊的忠实粉丝。
And he knew Henry was claiming he was innocent.
他知道亨利声称他是无辜的。
And he said, could you talk to him about this?
他说，你能和他谈谈这件事吗？
And tell him that if he doesn't admit it, he may never get out.
并告诉他，如果他不承认，他可能永远都出不去。
And that's what I did.
这就是我所做的。
I put in a legal call to him, and I told him who I was.
我给他打了一个法律电话，告诉他我是谁。
And I told him that I thought that there was a good chance he would not get out if he didn't acknowledge his guilt.
我告诉他，我认为如果他不承认自己有罪，他很可能出不来。
And he said, I understand that.
他说，我明白。
I know that.
我知道。
And if it means I have to stay in for the rest of my life, I can't admit to something I didn't do.
如果这意味着我必须在余生中呆在家里，我就不能承认我没有做过的事情。
So that's the only insight I can add to it, was my conversation with him.
所以这是我唯一可以补充的见解，就是我和他的谈话。
Next, the board chair calls on a state's attorney from the county where the crime occurred.
接下来，董事会主席会召集犯罪发生县的州检察官。
There's someone like this at nearly every hearing I saw.
我见过的几乎每次听证会都有这样的人。
She's there to say why the prosecution still opposes release after 48 years.
她来这里是为了解释为什么检方在 48 年后仍然反对释放。
But she has no connection to the case.
但她与此案没有任何关系。
I'm nearly certain no one from her office has spoken to Henry Dee in the decades since the trial.
我几乎可以肯定，自审判以来的几十年里，她办公室里没有人与亨利·迪伊说过话。
So I understand that it may sound like a sympathetic story of somebody who's claiming that they're innocent, but the fact of the matter is, is he stands convicted of this brutal, heinous double homicide.
所以我理解这听起来像是一个自称无辜的人的同情故事，但事实是，他因这起残酷、令人发指的双重杀人案而被定罪。
The appellate court reviewed the evidence that was presented and found that the conviction should be affirmed.
上诉法院审查了所提供的证据，认为应维持定罪。
And that's what happened.
这就是发生的事情。
This is not the place to talk about actual innocence.
这里不是谈论真正纯真的地方。
I think him denying this would deprecate the seriousness of the offense.
我认为他否认这一点会贬低罪行的严重性。
Granting him parole would also do that.
给予他假释也能做到这一点。
And I ask that you deny parole.
我要求你拒绝假释。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Ben Austen It's almost time for the vote.
本·奥斯汀 投票时间快到了。
So far, only one of the 13 board members has said they support release.
到目前为止，13名董事会成员中只有一名表示支持释放。
Another board member speaks up, Sal Diaz.
另一位董事会成员萨尔·迪亚兹 (Sal Diaz) 发了言。
He's seated by the door because he showed up last.
他坐在门口，因为他是最后一个出现的。
He's a former Chicago cop, old-school.
他是一名前芝加哥警察，老派。
He's wearing a tracksuit.
他穿着运动服。
He says he knows that in Chicago, there are a lot of documented cases of false arrest.
他说他知道在芝加哥有很多有案可查的错误逮捕案件。
The state's attorney says that he was convicted, but we all know some convictions, even though they were on the appellate level, are bogus, OK?
州检察官说他被定罪，但我们都知道有些定罪，即使是在上诉层面，也是假的，好吗？
We understand that.
我们明白这一点。
And I'm a former policeman.
我是一名前警察。
I've seen that over and over again.
我已经一遍又一遍地看到这一点。
Bad arrests.
糟糕的逮捕。
But he had the victim's property on him.
但他身上有受害者的财产。
That's what the police say.
警方就是这么说的。
Sal Diaz That's what he said.
萨尔·迪亚兹 他就是这么说的。
But even some of that property is property that would have been in the cab--
但即使其中一些财产本来应该在出租车里——
--not-- (SUBJECT) BOARD MEMBER 5: Right.
——不——（主题）董事会成员 5： 是的。
--on the victim.
——关于受害者。
(SUBJECT) BOARD MEMBER 5: On the victim.
（主题）董事会成员 5：关于受害者。
So there's some-- Sal Diaz And if the police--
所以有一些 - 萨尔迪亚兹 如果警察 -
(SUBJECT) BOARD MEMBER 5: Yeah, and if they dumped it all on the floor, all out.
（主题）董事会成员 5：是的，如果他们把所有东西都倒在地板上，那就全部倒掉。
Simply because the police chase people doesn't mean that the police are lying when they catch them.
仅仅因为警察在追人，并不意味着警察在抓到人时就在撒谎。
You know, it can be 50-50.
你知道，可能是50-50。
50-50?
50-50？
Those seem like terrible odds the police might be lying.
警察撒谎的可能性似乎很小。
Still, Diaz says he'd be more ready to vote for parole if Henry Dee just hadn't said he was innocent.
尽管如此，迪亚兹表示，如果亨利·迪伊没有说他是无辜的，他会更愿意投票支持假释。
I wish, for me, he would have said, no comment, as opposed to, I'm innocent.
我希望，对于我来说，他会说，不予评论，而不是说，我是无辜的。
And that would have made me feel a little more comfortable.
这会让我感觉更舒服一些。
At the same time, he's done a lot of good work.
与此同时，他也做了很多好事。
And Martinez has pled his case very well.
马丁内斯很好地辩护了他的案子。
And sometimes, I think we have to just say, hey, there may be some doubts here.
有时，我认为我们必须说，嘿，这里可能存在一些疑问。
I like the guy.
我喜欢这个家伙。
He's impressed me.
他给我留下了深刻的印象。
But he needs to go home.
但他需要回家。
And I understand that.
我明白这一点。
And that's all I'm going to say.
这就是我要说的。
At first, Diaz seemed like a definite no. Now, I'm not so sure.
起初，迪亚兹似乎是明确的拒绝。现在，我不太确定。
The chairman, Craig Findley, has been on the board longer than anyone else.
董事长克雷格·芬德利 (Craig Findley) 在董事会任职的时间比其他任何人都长。
He's a former state legislator, a moderate Republican.
他是前州议员，温和派共和党人。
He says he's also troubled that Henry Dee never accepted responsibility for the crime.
他说，他还对亨利·迪伊从未承认犯罪责任感到不安。
The other man arrested with Henry Dee eventually did.
与亨利·迪伊一起被捕的另一名男子最终也这么做了。
Initially, James Sayles also said he was innocent.
最初，詹姆斯·塞尔斯也表示自己是无辜的。
Their stories lined up.
他们的故事是一致的。
Then after years in prison, Sayles admitted he was guilty, that they did the crime.
入狱多年后，塞尔斯承认自己有罪，承认他们犯下了罪行。
And after that, he got paroled.
之后，他被假释了。
Voting to parole Mr. Sayles was probably the most difficult vote I ever cast.
投票假释塞尔斯先生可能是我投过的最困难的一票。
It was probably in 2005 or 2006.
大概是在2005年或2006年。
Yeah, it was '05, but-- Craig Findley Yeah, that was probably my most difficult vote at the time because of the gruesome nature of the crime.
是的，那是 05 年，但是 - Craig Findley 是的，这可能是我当时最困难的投票，因为犯罪的可怕性质。
Ms. Futorian, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me Mr. Sayles not only admitted his own guilt, but indicated that Mr. Dee was his co-defendant.
Futorian女士，如果我错了，请纠正我，但在我看来，Sayles先生不仅承认自己有罪，而且表明Dee先生是他的共同被告。
Much as I would like to support Mr. Dee, I'm troubled to consider paroling him.
尽管我很想支持迪伊先生，但我很难考虑假释他。
The chairman looks like another no vote for parole.
主席看起来像是另一个没有投票赞成假释的人。
There's often a randomness to these hearings.
这些听证会通常具有随机性。
Sometimes, the outcome seems like it's 100% certain, and then a board member will offer a stray comment, and it swings the momentum in the opposite direction.
有时，结果似乎是 100% 确定的，然后董事会成员会提出一些零散的评论，这会使势头向相反的方向转变。
There's a board member who's barely spoken today, Lisa Daniels.
董事会成员丽莎·丹尼尔斯 (Lisa Daniels) 今天几乎不说话。
She's Black, in her 50s.
她是黑人，50多岁。
Tattooed on one of her forearms are the words "I am forgiveness."
她的一只前臂上纹着“我是宽恕”的字样。
At these hearings, she'll occasionally bring up how her own son was murdered.
在这些听证会上，她偶尔会提起她自己的儿子是如何被谋杀的。
He was trying to rob another young man in a drug deal when he was shot.
他在一次毒品交易中试图抢劫另一名年轻人时被枪杀。
She'll mention this to stress that her son shouldn't be summed up by one terrible moment, that nobody should.
她提到这一点是为了强调，她的儿子不应该被一个可怕的时刻来总结，任何人都不应该。
And right now, she says she wants to share a theory.
现在，她说她想分享一个理论。
Can I ask something or offer something for consideration?
我可以询问或提供一些东西以供考虑吗？
Ms. Futorian mentioned earlier that Mr. Dee was told that if he did not acknowledge--
富托里安女士早些时候提到，迪伊先生被告知，如果他不承认——
(SUBJECT) BOARD MEMBER 6: I was just going to say that.
（主题）董事会成员 6：我正想说这个。
--committing the crime, that he would never be paroled.
——犯了罪，他永远不会被假释。
Maybe we want to take into consideration that Mr. Sayles took that advice, that Mr. Sayles was given that same advice and that he took it.
也许我们想考虑到塞尔斯先生接受了这个建议，塞尔斯先生得到了同样的建议并且他接受了它。
(SUBJECT) BOARD MEMBER 6: That's exactly what I was going to say.
（主题）董事会成员 6：这正是我要说的。
It's like something in the room shifts.
房间里好像有什么东西移动了。
I see a few heads nodding.
我看到有几个人在点头。
People are agreeing.
人们都同意。
(SUBJECT) BOARD MEMBER 6: We don't know.
（主题） 董事会成员 6：我们不知道。
We'll never know.
我们永远不会知道。
I mean, we don't know, and we'll never know.
我的意思是，我们不知道，也永远不会知道。
But--
但是——
--I would like to offer it as a consideration.
——我想把它作为一个考虑因素。
I asked him that-- Sayles.
我问他——塞尔斯。
He said no. He said no. We brought it up.
他说不。他说不。我们提出来了。
But he didn't point a finger at that.
但他并没有指出这一点。
And just one more thing.
还有一件事。
The reason I brought that up is because what I'm not hearing-- and maybe Ms. Martinez can speak to that-- is that typically, when someone changes, completely changes their behavior and their mindset, there's a point.
我之所以提出这个问题，是因为我没有听到——也许马丁内斯女士可以谈到这一点——通常，当某人改变、完全改变他们的行为和心态时，这是有道理的。
There's a religious conversion.
有一个宗教皈依。
There's some sort of eye-opening, life-altering event that changes a person.
有某种令人大开眼界、改变生活的事件会改变一个人。
And I'm not hearing that that took place for either one of these gentlemen throughout their period of incarceration.
我没有听说这两位先生在监禁期间发生过这种情况。
And so my mind is wondering, how is it that people-- how is it that these two men could have committed such a violent, violent, heinous crime, but then moved on to live a life of peace or such a peaceful existence without some point of turn?
所以我的心在想，为什么这两个人犯下了如此暴力、暴力、令人发指的罪行，却又过着平静的生活，或者如此和平的生活，没有任何转折点？
That's my question, too.
这也是我的问题。
How could these two individuals who, at Stateville, have such an incredible record, and not only for themselves, but for Dee to be a mediator-- which the counselors tell us, too.
在斯泰特维尔，这两个人怎么可能拥有如此令人难以置信的记录，不仅为他们自己，而且为迪伊担任调解人——辅导员也告诉我们。
They mediate the fights between inmates, as well as between the staff and the inmates.
他们调解囚犯之间以及工作人员与囚犯之间的争斗。
How could somebody who-- these were horrible, horrible murders.
怎么会有人——这些都是可怕的、可怕的谋杀案。
Yeah, we got-- yeah.
是的，我们得到了——是的。
Virginia Martinez I mean, the pictures are there.
弗吉尼亚·马丁内斯 我的意思是，照片就在那里。
They're horrible.
他们太可怕了。
But how could that-- and especially when even the psychiatrist said, oh, yeah, but if they don't win their appeal, they're going to go off.
但这怎么可能——尤其是当精神科医生说，哦，是的，但如果他们没有赢得上诉，他们就会离开。
No, they lost their appeal, and they didn't.
不，他们失去了上诉，但他们没有。
They didn't go crazy.
他们没有发疯。
They didn't cause any problems in the institution.
他们没有在机构中造成任何问题。
There really is no way to prove any of this, that someone who commits a terrible act of violence couldn't go on and live a life of peace, other than a feeling.
确实没有办法证明这一点，除了感觉之外，犯下可怕暴力行为的人无法继续过上平静的生活。
Has he had prior counsel?
他事先有咨询过吗？
Virginia Martinez Not for us, I don't think.
弗吉尼亚·马丁内斯 我认为不适合我们。
He had the same counsel with Sayles for the appeal, but after that, I don't think he's had an attorney.
他在上诉时与塞尔斯有相同的律师，但在那之后，我认为他没有律师。
I don't think he's ever been represented before, but he's been eligible for parole--
我认为他以前没有被代理过，但他有资格获得假释——
--81.
--81.
Craig Findley --for a very long time.
克雷格·芬德利——很长一段时间。
1981, he came before us for the first time.
1981年，他第一次来到我们面前。
In all that time, he's gotten one vote.
在这段时间里，他只获得了一票。
And there was, actually, also a statement in one of those decisions about, he needed a little more time.
实际上，其中一项决定中还声明，他需要更多时间。
You have it now.
你现在拥有了。
But it was '83-- it might have been later-- that the board said he needed a little more time.
但到了 83 年——可能会更晚——董事会说他需要更多时间。
He's had it.
他已经受够了。
He's had 46 years.
他已经46岁了。
I believe that he's been rehabilitated.
我相信他已经康复了。
And I believe that he presents an acceptable risk.
我相信他提出的风险是可以接受的。
And so I move that we--
所以我提议我们——
Overruled.
被否决了。
Did you say-- Craig Findley Oh, first, is there a second of the motion?
你是不是说——克雷格·芬德利 哦，首先，还有第二个动议吗？
Second.
第二。
Craig Findley Ms. Harris.
克雷格·芬德利 哈里斯女士。
Ms. Perkins.
帕金斯女士。
Did you say he just had four tickets in--
你是不是说他只有四张票——
30 years.
30年。
Lisa Daniels Four tickets in 30 years.
丽莎·丹尼尔斯 30 年内四张门票。
At Stateville.
在斯泰特维尔。
At Stateville.
在斯泰特维尔。
I keep thinking about that.
我一直在想这个。
Easy place to get tickets.
很容易获得门票的地方。
Virginia Martinez Yes.
弗吉尼亚·马丁内斯 是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Ben Austen And then after this discussion that zigged and zagged, suddenly, the conversation's over.
本·奥斯汀 在这场曲折的讨论之后，谈话突然结束了。
It's finally time.
终于到时间了。
The board members will cast their votes.
董事会成员将投票。
Henry Dee needs eight yeses to get parole, a majority of the 14-member board.
亨利·迪伊 (Henry Dee) 需要 8 人同意才能获得假释，这是 14 名董事会成员中的大多数。
This is even harder today because one of the board members is absent.
今天，这变得更加困难，因为其中一名董事会成员缺席。
He still needs eight votes, though.
不过，他仍然需要八票。
Those are the rules.
这些就是规则。
All right.
好的。
Any further discussion?
还有进一步讨论吗？
Hearing none, the motion is to grant an aye, yes vote as to grant parole to Mr. Henry Dee.
由于无人听取意见，该动议将投赞成票，批准亨利·迪伊先生假释。
Please take the roll.
请收卷。
Mr. Diaz?
迪亚兹先生？
Sal Diaz I think he's dirty, but I'm going to vote for him.
萨尔·迪亚兹（Sal Diaz） 我认为他很肮脏，但我会投票给他。
[LAUGHTER] Ben Austen Sal Diaz, the Chicago cop, certainly not soft on crime, says he's dirty.
[笑声] 芝加哥警察本·奥斯汀·萨尔·迪亚兹 (Ben Austen Sal Diaz) 对犯罪当然不手软，他说自己很肮脏。
He still thinks Henry Dee is guilty.
他仍然认为亨利·迪伊有罪。
But, he shrugs, he'll vote for him anyway.
但是，他耸耸肩，无论如何他都会投票给他。
You can hear a gasp from someone in the room because that was the eighth vote.
你可以听到房间里某人的喘息声，因为那是第八次投票。
Chairman Findley?
主席芬德利？
Craig Findley I'll go with Sal.
克雷格·芬德利 我和萨尔一起去。
Yes.
是的。
Dirty as the day is long.
白天很长，很脏。
[?
[？
(SUBJECT) DONALD SHELTON: ?] Thank you.
（主题）唐纳德·谢尔顿：？] 谢谢。
He made it.
他做到了。
But please read the result.
但请阅读结果。
He did receive eight votes.
他确实获得了八票。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
Nine votes.
九票。
Craig Findley The board order parole will be granted-- do we need 90 days, Samantha?
克雷格·芬德利 (Craig Findley) 董事会命令假释将获得批准——萨曼莎，我们需要 90 天吗？
Yes.
是的。
Craig Findley 90 days from today, the--
克雷格·芬德利 从今天起 90 天，--
After 48 years of incarceration, Henry Dee was going free.
亨利·迪伊 (Henry Dee) 被监禁 48 年后获释。
The whole thing took less than an hour.
整个事情花了不到一个小时。
Of the seven cases the board considers today, this is the only one granted release, and I can't stop thinking about it.
在董事会今天审议的七个案件中，这是唯一一个获得释放的案件，我无法停止思考它。
It's all my producer, Bill, and I talk about on the three-hour drive back from Springfield to Chicago, because we just saw a long prison sentence end.
这是我的制作人比尔和我在从斯普林菲尔德返回芝加哥的三小时车程中谈论的所有事情，因为我们刚刚看到长期监禁的刑期结束。
It's impossible to sit through these hearings and not think about what decision you would make.
参加这些听证会而不考虑您会做出什么决定是不可能的。
For me, there's no question-- I would have voted for release.
对我来说，毫无疑问——我会投票赞成释放。
And I want to be clear about what it means to say that, because two people were murdered, and I don't think we'll ever know what happened.
我想澄清这句话的意思，因为有两个人被谋杀了，我认为我们永远不会知道发生了什么。
I'm saying that even if Henry Dee did kill Edith and Arthur Snyder back in 1971 and lied about it all these years, even then, to me, it was time to let Henry Dee out.
我想说的是，即使亨利·迪伊确实在 1971 年就杀了伊迪丝和阿瑟·斯奈德，并且多年来一直对此撒谎，即使在那时，对我来说，也是时候让亨利·迪伊出去了。
Past time.
过去的时间。
We spent a long time trying to get in touch with the family of Edith and Arthur Snyder.
我们花了很长时间试图与伊迪丝·斯奈德和阿瑟·斯奈德的家人取得联系。
I did eventually reach their daughter.
我最终还是联系到了他们的女儿。
She's now about 80 years old.
她现在已经80岁左右了。
She told me she strongly opposed Dee's release, had written a letter to the board before this hearing and for nearly every one of his hearings over the years.
她告诉我，她强烈反对释放迪伊，并在这次听证会之前以及多年来几乎每一次听证会都给董事会写了一封信。
She believes he's guilty.
她相信他有罪。
And she says, even if you're a saint in prison, if you take a life, it's forever.
她说，即使你是监狱里的圣人，如果你夺走了一条生命，那就是永远的。
So you should never be let out.
所以你永远不应该被放出来。
We talked for a while about parole, about our different views on punishment.
我们讨论了假释的问题，讨论了我们对惩罚的不同看法。
She said, had your loved ones been killed, maybe you'd feel the same way I do.
她说，如果你所爱的人被杀，也许你也会有和我一样的感受。
I told her that was a fair point.
我告诉她这是一个公平的观点。
I still believe what I believe, but it's true.
我仍然相信我所相信的，但这是真的。
I haven't gone through what she has.
我没有经历过她所经历的一切。
I didn't say this earlier, but Illinois is one of the states that got rid of parole, way back in 1978.
我之前没有说过，但伊利诺伊州是早在 1978 年就废除假释的州之一。
So only people like Henry Dee, sentenced before 1978, are still eligible for hearings like this one.
因此，只有像亨利·迪伊 (Henry Dee) 这样在 1978 年之前被判刑的人，才有资格参加这样的听证会。
So the people who come before this board are mostly in their 60s and above.
所以来到这个委员会的人大多是60岁以上的人。
They're senior citizens, which means, on any actuarial table, they pose very little risk of committing another crime.
他们是老年人，这意味着，在任何精算表上，他们再次犯罪的风险都很小。
And still, the parole board only says yes to a tiny percentage-- in the 15 years before Dee's hearing, just 6% of them.
尽管如此，假释委员会只对一小部分人表示同意——在迪伊听证会之前的 15 年里，只有 6% 的人同意假释。
So who makes the cut?
那么谁能晋级呢？
In the numerous cases I've seen, the people who did get released, there's always a story that enough board members were able to latch onto, something that allowed them, finally, to move beyond that magnetic pull of the long-ago crime.
在我见过的无数案例中，那些被释放的人，总会有足够多的董事会成员能够抓住的故事，让他们最终摆脱很久以前犯罪的吸引力。
In Henry Dee's case, it was the unbridgeable distance between the brutality of the murders and the peacefulness of his life in prison.
在亨利·迪伊的案件中，残酷的谋杀与他平静的狱中生活之间有着不可逾越的距离。
Another guy I saw get paroled, he had a surgery that left him bleeding in his cell for years.
我看到的另一个人被假释，他接受了一次手术，导致他在牢房里流血多年。
The horror of his medical care in prison made his offense seem to the board almost beside the point.
他在监狱中所受到的可怕的医疗护理使董事会认为他的罪行几乎无关紧要。
And then this other time, a man not only escaped, but lived under an alias in a different state for years.
而另一次，一名男子不仅逃脱了，而且以化名在另一个州生活了多年。
He was a beloved member of that community before he was apprehended again.
在再次被捕之前，他是该社区深受爱戴的成员。
The board, to my shock, saw that time when he was at large like a test case for the positive life he'd live if they gave him another chance.
令我震惊的是，董事会认为他在逃的那段时间就像一个测试用例，如果他们再给他一次机会，他会过上积极的生活。
I've thought a lot about whether Illinois and the rest of the country should bring back parole, whether it makes sense to get more people in front of boards again.
我想了很多关于伊利诺伊州和全国其他地区是否应该恢复假释，是否有必要让更多的人再次进入董事会。
Parole decisions can be racially biased, completely focused on the original crime, and just random.
假释决定可能存在种族偏见，完全专注于原始犯罪，而且是随机的。
But even knowing all this, I think we need more systems of second chances.
但即使知道这一切，我认为我们仍然需要更多的第二次机会系统。
The United States locks up more people than any other country, about one in six of all the incarcerated people in the world.
美国关押的人数比任何其他国家都多，约占世界上所有被关押人数的六分之一。
There are hundreds of thousands of people in prisons like Henry Dee.
像亨利·迪伊这样的监狱里有数十万人。
They've spent decades behind bars.
他们已经在监狱里呆了几十年了。
Many will die there.
许多人会死在那里。
They deserve another look.
他们值得再看一眼。
When we come back, Ben tries to track down Henry Dee.
当我们回来时，本试图追踪亨利·迪。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Ben Austen picks up the story again.
本·奥斯汀再次讲述这个故事。
Even after sitting through Henry Dee's parole hearing, I didn't really know him.
即使在参加了亨利·迪伊的假释听证会之后，我也并不真正了解他。
I hadn't even seen or heard him.
我什至没有看到或听到他。
So I tried to find out more.
所以我试图了解更多。
Here's what I learned.
这是我学到的。
After Henry Dee makes parole, people at the prison celebrate, even the staff.
亨利·迪伊获得假释后，监狱里的人们甚至工作人员都在庆祝。
And the day he walks out the front gate, he's getting hugs and congratulations from everyone.
当他走出前门的那天，他得到了每个人的拥抱和祝贺。
His mother's still alive, in her 90s.
他的母亲还活着，已经九十多岁了。
She's not walking.
她没有走路。
She can't meet him there.
她不能在那里见到他。
But Henry is ecstatic to see her.
但亨利看到她欣喜若狂。
He gets outside-- his first free air in 48 years-- and there are federal officers waiting for him.
他走到外面——48 年来第一次自由呼吸——联邦官员正在等他。
They handcuff him, put him in a car.
他们给他戴上手铐，把他放进车里。
Henry has no idea what's going on.
亨利不知道发生了什么事。
He eventually learns it's for one of the attempted escapes all those decades ago.
他最终得知这是几十年前的一次逃跑尝试。
He's been granted parole by the state, but the feds are tacking on two more years.
他已获得州政府的假释，但联邦调查局还打算再延长两年假释期。
He's driven to a federal prison in Pennsylvania.
他被送往宾夕法尼亚州的一所联邦监狱。
His mom dies during that time.
他的妈妈在那段时间去世了。
27 months later, the feds put him on a plane to Chicago.
27 个月后，联邦调查局把他送上飞往芝加哥的飞机。
He's never flown before, has no idea how to board, where to sit.
他以前从未坐过飞机，不知道如何登机、坐在哪里。
The flight attendants learn his story and move him to first class.
空乘人员了解了他的故事并把他转移到头等舱。
He has to turn down the free drinks because he doesn't want to violate his parole.
他不得不拒绝免费饮料，因为他不想违反假释规定。
From O'Hare, he gets on a train.
从奥黑尔出发，他坐上了火车。
He's got directions written out on paper.
他已经把指示写在纸上了。
He doesn't have a cell phone.
他没有手机。
He makes it to a Salvation Army on the city's West Side.
他到达了城市西区的救世军。
That's where he sleeps.
那是他睡觉的地方。
He later moves to a homeless shelter.
后来他搬到了无家可归者收容所。
The friend from inside who won the wrongful conviction suit who promised Henry a job and a home, it doesn't pan out.
赢得错判诉讼的内部朋友向亨利许诺一份工作和一个家，但没有成功。
So Henry's trying to figure out his new surroundings, his new life, but he has medical issues.
亨利试图了解他的新环境、他的新生活，但他有健康问题。
Eventually, he's admitted to the hospital.
最终，他被送进了医院。
He has diabetes, fluid on his lungs.
他患有糖尿病，肺部积液。
And after a few days there, he's dead.
在那里几天后，他死了。
Henry Dee was incarcerated for 50 years.
亨利·迪伊被监禁了 50 年。
He lives free after his release for less than 12 months.
出狱后他过着自由的生活不到12个月。
I tracked down a few people who knew Henry Dee well.
我找到了一些很了解亨利·迪的人。
I want to take these last few minutes to tell you some things about him.
我想利用最后几分钟的时间告诉你们一些关于他的事情。
Henry Dee wore a frog pin around the prison.
亨利·迪伊在监狱周围佩戴了一枚青蛙别针。
He'd leave the cell house, walk onto the yard, and dozens of stray cats would appear.
当他离开牢房，走到院子里时，就会出现几十只流浪猫。
He'd feed them.
他会喂它们。
He was a large man, hands like catcher's mitts.
他身材魁梧，双手像捕手的手套。
When young guys asked him who his gang chief was, he'd tell them his mom.
当年轻人问他帮派头目是谁时，他会告诉他们他的妈妈。
Because of his diabetes, he could get jittery or pass out on the toilet in his cell, and his friends were always on watch for him.
由于患有糖尿病，他可能会变得紧张或在牢房的厕所里昏倒，而他的朋友们总是在监视着他。
For nine years, the person who lived with him in a six by eight foot cell was a guy named Jacob Rivera.
九年来，与他一起住在六乘八英尺牢房里的是一个名叫雅各布·里维拉的人。
Henry was funny, man.
亨利很有趣，伙计。
I would sit in a cell on lockdowns and write these letters.
我会坐在被封锁的牢房里写这些信。
And not having a very good educational background, whoever I was writing to, I tried to make it seem like I was educated.
由于没有很好的教育背景，无论我写信给谁，我都会尽力让自己看起来受过教育。
And I would try to use these big words.
我会尝试使用这些大词。
And I told Henry-- hey, Henry, what word can I use for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?
我告诉亨利——嘿，亨利，我可以用什么词来形容“废话，废话，废话，废话，废话”？
He's like, what are you trying to say?
他说，你想说什么？
And then I would tell him what I was trying to say, and he'll say, well, just say that.
然后我会告诉他我想说的话，他会说，好吧，就这么说吧。
[LAUGHS] You know?
[笑]你知道吗？
And I'm like, oh, yeah.
我想，哦，是的。
Yeah, he had a way.
是的，他有办法。
Jacob called him Grandpa.
雅各布称他为爷爷。
A chaplain at the prison told me she called him Father Abraham because she saw him as a man of wisdom and love.
监狱里的一位牧师告诉我，她称他为亚伯拉罕神父，因为她认为他是一个充满智慧和爱心的人。
Those times he came up for parole, the entire prison felt hope.
当他申请假释时，整个监狱都感到了希望。
Here's another man who was locked up with him, Andre Ruddock.
这是和他一起关押的另一个人，安德烈·拉多克。
All of the guards, all of the officers, all the way up to the warden, everybody would get engaged.
所有的警卫，所有的军官，一直到典狱长，每个人都会参与其中。
Like, everybody knew, Henry Dee goes to the board.
就像大家都知道的那样，亨利·迪伊进入了董事会。
He's going to the board.
他要去董事会。
They might let him out, finally.
他们最终可能会让他出去。
This might be his year.
今年可能是属于他的一年。
When Henry Dee finally got released, Andre was already out.
当亨利·迪伊最终被释放时，安德烈已经出狱了。
And when he learned that Henry was sleeping in a homeless shelter, he was furious.
当他得知亨利睡在无家可归者收容所时，他非常愤怒。
So Andre raced over to the shelter, called some people, and they got Henry Dee an apartment.
于是安德烈跑到避难所，打电话给一些人，他们给亨利·迪找了一套公寓。
They recorded a video of him seeing it for the first time.
他们录制了他第一次看到它的视频。
Here he is, Henry Dee.
他在这里，亨利·迪伊。
Yeah, that's my living room.
是的，那是我的客厅。
Woman 1 This is your little kitchen area.
女人 1 这是你的小厨房区域。
Ooh, Lord.
哦，主啊。
Woman 1 You got a brand-new bathroom.
女人 1 你有一间全新的浴室。
A brand-new bathroom!
全新的浴室！
Wow.
哇。
Woman 2 This is nice.
女人2 这很好。
Look at it.
看看它。
Henry Dee Well, this is wonderful.
亨利·迪 嗯，这太棒了。
This is more room than I done had in the last century.
这比我上个世纪的空间还要大。
Henry has a full white beard.
亨利有满白胡子。
He's wearing a wool hat and a gray hoodie.
他戴着一顶羊毛帽子和一件灰色连帽衫。
And he uses a walker as he enters the remodeled kitchen.
当他进入改造后的厨房时，他使用助行器。
There are granite countertops.
有花岗岩台面。
Everything is bright and freshly painted.
一切都明亮且粉刷一新。
Henry is jubilant.
亨利兴高采烈。
They all are.
他们都是。
Come look at your bathroom.
来看看你的浴室。
Henry Dee Man, I see it all from right here.
亨利·迪曼，我从这里看到了这一切。
[LAUGHTER] I've been living in a bathroom smaller than this all my life.
[笑声] 我一生都住在比这还小的浴室里。
Whew, look at that.
哇，看看那个。
Nice.
好的。
Henry Dee You've done a wonderful job.
亨利·迪伊 你做得非常出色。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
What's your name?
你叫什么名字？
Henry had 351 days of freedom.
亨利有 351 天的自由。
I saw a video of him from one of those days.
我看过他那几天的一段视频。
He's surrounded by three little dogs leaping all over him, and he's giddy.
他被三只小狗包围，在他身上跳来跳去，他头晕目眩。
He loved to play the lottery.
他喜欢玩彩票。
And he had this new makeshift family-- the people who knew him in prison who now just wanted to be around him.
他有了这个新的临时家庭——那些在监狱里认识他的人现在只想和他在一起。
But he never slept in the new apartment.
但他从未在新公寓里睡过。
At night, he'd go back to the homeless shelter.
晚上，他会回到无家可归者收容所。
For five decades, he'd been surrounded by hundreds of people.
五年来，他一直被数百人包围。
He was terrified of being alone.
他害怕孤独。
Andre told me that in prison, Henry was a giant.
安德烈告诉我，在监狱里，亨利是一个巨人。
After all that, after all that he survived, he was a powerhouse.
毕竟，他活下来之后，他已经是强者了。
This is what we all knew.
这是我们都知道的。
Henry Dee was so big.
亨利·迪伊太大了。
And he talk about his hands big.
他还谈到他的手很大。
He had this deep, powerful voice.
他的声音低沉而有力。
This was the character.
这就是角色。
But then he came home, and the real world shrunk him.
但当他回到家后，现实世界把他缩小了。
It shrunk him and then defeated him.
它缩小了他，然后击败了他。
And he never got a chance to do anything that he really wanted to do.
而他从来没有机会做任何他真正想做的事情。
And one of the things he told me when he was in the hospital, that he wanted to go to the observation deck on Willis Tower.
他在医院时告诉我的一件事是，他想去威利斯大厦的观景台。
The Willis Tower, also known as the Sears Tower, is Chicago's tallest building.
威利斯大厦，也称为西尔斯大厦，是芝加哥最高的建筑。
I told him that's the first thing we're going to do when you get out of the hospital.
我告诉他这是你出院后我们要做的第一件事。
I'm going to take you up there.
我要带你去那里。
But since he died, he obviously couldn't.
但既然他死了，他显然就不能了。
So I took his picture that you have, that obituary.
所以我拍了他的照片，就是你那张讣告。
I took it up to the observation deck and took a picture of it.
我把它带到了观景台并拍了一张照片。
[CRYING] Like, yeah, Henry Dee, you made it.
[哭泣] 就像，是的，亨利·迪伊，你成功了。
We got you up here, so.
我们把你带到这里了，所以。
[CLEARS THROAT]
[清嗓子]
Ben Austen As far as I can tell, Henry Dee out of prison was the same person Virginia Martinez saw in prison, the same person prison officials had been describing to the parole board for decades.
本·奥斯汀 据我所知，出狱的亨利·迪伊就是弗吉尼亚·马丁内斯在监狱里看到的同一个人，也是监狱官员几十年来向假释委员会描述的同一个人。
Ben Austen.
本·奥斯汀.
He wrote a book about the parole system and the odysseys of two men trying to go free.
他写了一本关于假释制度和两个人试图获得自由的冒险经历的书。
It's called Correction.
这就是所谓的修正。
He also hosts a new podcast called The Parole Room, which centers around a different case than the one you just heard-- a kind of famous case in Chicago, actually-- with lots of twists and turns, including a guy on parole who gets out and then insists on attending parole hearings with Ben.
他还主持了一个名为“假释室”的新播客，该播客与您刚刚听到的案件不同，实际上是芝加哥的一个著名案件，其中有很多曲折，包括一个假释的人出来了，然后坚持与本一起参加假释听证会。
You can find all eight episodes right now at audible.com/parole.
您现在可以在 audible.com/parole 上找到全部八集。
This story was produced and edited by our senior editor, David Kestenbaum.
这个故事由我们的高级编辑 David Kestenbaum 制作和编辑。
Our program was produced today by Aviva DeKornfeld.
今天我们的节目由 Aviva DeKornfeld 制作。
The people who put together today's show include Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Henry Larson, Seth Lind, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, and Matt Tierney.
今天节目的制作人包括 Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Henry Larson、Seth Lind、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp 和 Matt Tierney。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Today's show was fact-checked by Christopher Swetala.
今天的节目由 Christopher Swetala 进行了事实核查。
He's the person on staff who first heard Ben's podcast and thought we might collaborate on a story with him.
他是工作人员中第一个听到本的播客并认为我们可以与他合作写一个故事的人。
Fact-checking help from Heena Srivastava and Rudy Lee.
Heena Srivastava 和 Rudy Lee 提供了事实核查帮助。
In the years since his 2019 hearing that you just heard, one of the board members, Sal Diaz, has died.
您刚刚听说，自 2019 年听证会以来，董事会成员之一萨尔·迪亚兹 (Sal Diaz) 去世了。
Special thanks today to Ben's producer, Bill Healy, to The Invisible Institute, who funded some of the early reporting that Ben and Bill did on this, to Sayre Quevedo, Lori Wilbert, Jason Sew Hoy, Josh Crist, Marciane Tanada, Lauren Olsen, Jelly Monteros, Ashley Lusk, and Jake Shapiro.
今天特别感谢 Ben 的制片人 Bill Healy，感谢 Invisible Institute，他们资助了 Ben 和 Bill 对此所做的一些早期报道，感谢 Sayre Quevedo、Lori Wilbert、Jason Sew Hoy、Josh Crist、Marciane Tanada、Lauren Olsen、Jelly Monteros、Ashley Lusk 和 Jake Shapiro。
Thanks also to all of our Life Partners-- that is, everybody who has signed up for the new premium subscription version of our show, which you heard me mention at the top of the episode.
还要感谢我们所有的生活合作伙伴——也就是说，所有注册了我们节目的新高级订阅版本的人，你听到我在本集顶部提到过这一点。
You can join them-- join us-- as our partner in keeping the show strong at thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners.
您可以加入他们——加入我们——作为我们的合作伙伴，让节目保持强劲，访问 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's confounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的混杂者 Torey Malatia 先生。
He actually screen tested, back in the day, for the little girl character in ET, the Drew Barrymore part.
事实上，他当时曾为《外星人》中的小女孩角色（德鲁·巴里摩尔的角色）进行过试镜。
But the scene where they opened the closet and see ET and scream?
但是他们打开衣柜看到外星人并尖叫的场景呢？
Torey just could not deliver.
托雷就是无法兑现。
They call action.
他们呼吁采取行动。
He looks at ET and blurts out--
他看着 ET，脱口而出——
I liked the guy.
我喜欢这个家伙。
He's impressed me.
他给我留下了深刻的印象。
But he needs to go home.
但他需要回家。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。