842: 51 Days - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #842 | October 4, 2024 842: 51 Days Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 842 集 | 2024 年 10 月 4 日 842：51 天 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass In Israel last week, Eli Albag wanted to do something about his daughter, Liri, who had been captured by Hamas a year ago when she was 18 and is still a hostage somewhere in Gaza.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 上周在以色列，Eli Albag 想要为他的女儿 Liri 做点什么。Liri 一年前被哈马斯抓获，当时她 18 岁，目前仍是加沙某地的人质。
And so he took a bullhorn and went to stand outside an event that was being held by the prime minister's political party, Likud.
于是他拿着扩音器走到总理所属政党利库德集团正在举行的一次活动外。
Basically, he wanted the people running the country to make some kind of deal with Hamas and bring his daughter home.
基本上，他希望治理这个国家的人与哈马斯达成某种协议并将他的女儿带回家。
And so, OK, he's standing there with his bullhorn, this grieving, worried parent, who doesn't know if he's ever going to see his child again.
所以，好吧，他拿着扩音器站在那里，这位悲伤、忧心忡忡的父母，不知道自己是否还能再见到自己的孩子。
And someone throws an egg at him, and another egg.
有人向他扔了一个鸡蛋，然后又扔了一个鸡蛋。
Somebody yells and calls him a cancer on Israel.
有人大喊大叫，称他是以色列的毒瘤。
Somebody else accuses him of being funded by Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas.
还有人指责他受到哈马斯领导人叶海亚·辛瓦尔的资助。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Ira Glass This is not unusual in Israel.
[非英语演讲] Ira Glass 这在以色列并不罕见。
The country is bitterly divided between people like these hostage families, who are saying stop the fighting, make a deal with Hamas, bring home the hostages, and on the other side, the prime minister's supporters and his coalition, people running the government, who want to press on with the war and get to a more complete victory over Hamas.
这个国家在像这些人质家庭这样的人之间存在着严重的分歧，他们要求停止战斗，与哈马斯达成协议，将人质带回家；而另一方面，总理的支持者和他的联盟，政府的执政者，希望继续推进战争，并取得对哈马斯的更彻底的胜利。
I have an Israeli friend who said to me that this war is different from ones in the past in Israel, because in the past, he said, once the war started, everybody united.
我有一个以色列朋友对我说，这场战争与以色列过去的战争不同，因为他说，过去，一旦战争爆发，大家就团结起来。
This time, it's driven people further apart, to the point where even these anguished families, who you'd think would have universal sympathy in a country at war, are the target of all kinds of hate.
这一次，它使人们更加疏远，以至于即使是这些痛苦的家庭，你认为他们在一个战争国家会得到普遍的同情，也成为各种仇恨的目标。
Some other examples-- a real estate mogul, who's also a big Likud supporter, writes tweets that call for the death of the mother of one of the hostages.
其他一些例子——一位房地产大亨，也是利库德集团的大力支持者，发表推文呼吁杀死其中一名人质的母亲。
Or here's a video that was posted online of an Israeli right-winger on a motorcycle, who pulls over next to a group of hostage families and tells them, "You're going to be murdered.
或者这是一个发布在网上的视频，一名以色列右翼分子骑着摩托车，将车停在一群人质家庭旁边，告诉他们，“你们将被谋杀。
I'm going to murder you.
我要杀了你。
Mark my words."
记住我的话。”
So in Israel, supporting the hostages for so many people has come to mean that you oppose the Israeli government and the way that they're conducting the war, and you want a ceasefire and a deal with Hamas.
因此，在以色列，支持这么多人质就意味着你反对以色列政府和他们进行战争的方式，你希望停火并与哈马斯达成协议。
I think here in the United States, we have a different picture of the hostages and what they stand for.
我认为在美国，我们对人质及其代表的意义有不同的看法。
Here, I think there's this feeling that if you support the hostages, you support the war, and the current Israeli government, and the way it's conducted that war, with all the bombings and death.
在这里，我认为有一种感觉，如果你支持人质，你就支持战争，支持以色列现任政府，以及它进行战争的方式，包括所有的爆炸和死亡。
The hostages are a symbol, but a symbol that means different things to different people in the US and Israel.
人质是一个象征，但这个象征对于美国和以色列的不同人来说有着不同的含义。
It's been a year since the hostages were taken.
人质被劫持已经一年了。
The current conflict with Hamas began last October 7 with the killing of 1,200 people and the kidnapping of 251 others.
当前与哈马斯的冲突始于去年 10 月 7 日，造成 1,200 人死亡、251 人被绑架。
So much has happened since then, of course.
当然，从那以后发生了很多事情。
Israel killed over 40,000 Palestinians.
以色列杀害了四万多名巴勒斯坦人。
90% of the population, almost 2 million Palestinians, have been displaced from their homes.
90% 的人口，即近 200 万巴勒斯坦人，已经流离失所。
This past week, Israel expanded the war to Lebanon with a ground invasion.
上周，以色列通过地面入侵将战争扩大到黎巴嫩。
Iran sent missiles in response, and the White House has been scrambling to try to stop a full-out regional war.
伊朗发射了导弹作为回应，白宫一直在努力阻止全面的地区战争。
At this point, this war is about so many other things than the hostages.
就目前而言，这场战争除了人质之外还有很多其他的事情。
But those 251 people, 117 of them released or rescued, 70 dead, and 64 who are presumed alive and in captivity, are still this symbol.
但那 251 人，其中 117 人被释放或获救，70 人死亡，64 人被认为还活着或被囚禁，仍然是这个象征。
They're on posters that people put up and other people tear down.
它们出现在人们张贴的海报上，也有人撕下。
They're on Bring Them Home bracelets.
他们戴着“Bring They Home”手镯。
But they're also people, each having their own personal and specific experience of this war, an experience that politics flattens and wipes away.
但他们也是人，每个人都有自己对这场战争的个人和具体经历，这些经历被政治压平和抹去。
Just two weeks after the Hamas attack, very early on, an 85-year-old hostage named Yocheved Lifshitz was released and sent home.
哈马斯袭击事件发生后仅两周，不久前，一名 85 岁的人质约切维德·利夫什茨 (Yocheved Lifshitz) 被释放并送回家。
And Israelis were pretty excited.
以色列人非常兴奋。
They did a press conference from the hospital.
他们在医院举行了新闻发布会。
She was put on live TV in a wheelchair.
她坐在轮椅上接受电视直播。
Her daughter helped her hear the questions and give answers.
她的女儿帮助她听到问题并给出答案。
Somebody asked, when Hamas released you, why did you shake the Hamas guy's hand?
有人问，哈马斯释放你时，你为什么要握哈马斯的手？
Her reply--
她的回复——
Because they treated us very nicely.
因为他们对我们很好。
My mom is saying that they were very delicate and gentle with them and took care of all their needs.
我妈妈说他们对他们非常温柔，照顾他们的所有需求。
Television commentators and newspaper columnists jumped in, calling this press conference a disaster, a propaganda win for Hamas, an embarrassment for the hospital.
电视评论员和报纸专栏作家纷纷介入，称这次新闻发布会是一场灾难，是哈马斯的宣传胜利，也是医院的耻辱。
Mind you, Lifshitz also said a lot of awful things about Hamas in her abduction-- attackers running rampant, beating people young and old.
请注意，利夫希茨还对哈马斯绑架事件说了很多可怕的话——袭击者猖獗，殴打年轻人和老年人。
They hit her in the ribs with a wooden pole.
他们用木棍打她的肋骨。
But the story that came out of the press conference was that she said something nice about Hamas.
但新闻发布会上流传的消息是，她对哈马斯说了一些好话。
Within a month, the hospital's spokesman who organized the press conference was out of the job.
一个月之内，组织这次新闻发布会的医院发言人就被解雇了。
There are certain things that Israelis just did not want to hear right then.
有些事情是以色列人当时不想听到的。
Here at our program, throughout this year, we've tried to document what this war has been for Palestinians and also for Israelis.
在我们的节目中，今年全年，我们都试图记录这场战争对巴勒斯坦人和以色列人的影响。
And this week, a year after those people became hostages, we thought it might be a good time to hear about their actual lived experiences, all the complicated parts that don't fit neatly into some symbolic picture of them.
本周，在这些人成为人质一年后，我们认为现在可能是听听他们实际生活经历的好时机，所有复杂的部分并不完全适合他们的某些象征性画面。
There are these long interviews that an Israeli journalist, Lee Naim, has been doing with hostages who've been released on a daily news podcast called Echad Bayom-- One a Day.
以色列记者李·奈姆 (Lee Naim) 对人质进行了长时间的采访，这些人质已在名为“Echad Bayom——一天一次”的每日新闻播客中被释放。
In these interviews, you get to hear them just talking at length.
在这些采访中，你可以听到他们长篇大论。
They're not a sound bite, not an image on a poster.
它们不是原声摘要，也不是海报上的图像。
You hear what really happened, the complexity of what they went through and what they saw and felt.
你会听到真实发生的事情、他们经历的复杂性以及他们的所见所感。
One of the things that's especially interesting, I think, to hear is the hostages' stories about their interactions with the people holding them captive, who, I have to say, they come across with way more dimension than I might have guessed.
我认为，特别有趣的事情之一是听到人质关于他们与囚禁他们的人互动的故事，我不得不说，他们遇到的维度比我想象的要多得多。
So, most of this hour, we're going to be hearing from one of the Echad Bayom interviewees, a woman named Chen Almog-Goldstein.
因此，这一小时的大部分时间，我们都会听到 Echad Bayom 的一位受访者的声音，她是一位名叫 Chen Almog-Goldstein 的女士。
And then when we get to the second half of the show, we're going to hear from a few of the other hostages who were interviewed.
然后当我们进入节目的后半部分时，我们将听到其他一些接受采访的人质的声音。
I hope you stick around.
我希望你能留下来。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
Part one, The Abduction.
第一部，绑架。
Just a heads up-- if you're listening with kids, some of this gets intense.
请注意——如果你和孩子们一起听，有些内容会变得很激烈。
So, Chen Almog-Goldstein lived in a kibbutz called Kfar Aza, about two miles from the Gaza border, with her husband, Nadav, and their four children.
因此，陈·阿尔莫格-戈尔茨坦 (Chen Almog-Goldstein) 与丈夫纳达夫 (Nadav) 以及四个孩子住在距离加沙边境约两英里的一个名为卡法阿扎 (Kfar Aza) 的基布兹。
She and Nadav met in junior high school.
她和纳达夫是在初中时认识的。
She worked as a social worker for a while but then focused on raising her kids.
她曾担任过一段时间的社会工作者，但后来专注于抚养孩子。
The morning of October 7, sirens went off, and they went to the safe room in their house.
10月7日早上，警报响起，他们来到了家中的安全室。
One of the things that a lot of people talk about in these interviews is how mystified they were that the army did not show up.
很多人在这些采访中谈论的一件事是，他们对军队没有出现感到多么困惑。
For many Israelis, that is the second astonishing thing that happened that morning, that the military forces Israelis trust to keep them safe didn't arrive for over eight hours for reasons that still haven't been formally investigated.
对于许多以色列人来说，这是那天早上发生的第二件令人震惊的事情，以色列人相信可以保证他们安全的军队在八个多小时后才抵达，原因尚未得到正式调查。
Chen's family stayed in the safe room for five hours.
陈一家人在安全室里呆了五个小时。
Then, men entered the house, reached where they were, shot her husband, Nadav, in the chest, she says, right in front of them.
然后，男人们进入房子，到达他们所在的地方，当着他们的面向她丈夫纳达夫的胸部开枪，她说。
Soon after that, they shot her oldest daughter, Yam, in the face.
不久之后，他们向她的大女儿亚姆的脸部开枪。
Yam was 20 and home on leave from her mandatory military service.
任当时 20 岁，服完兵役后正在休假回家。
Chen says the last time she saw Yam, she was flailing on the floor.
陈说，她最后一次见到亚姆时，她正在地板上挣扎。
Then Chen and her three other children were led outside.
然后陈和她的另外三个孩子被带到外面。
There was her 17-year-old daughter, Agam, and also her two sons, who were younger, 11 and 9.
其中包括她 17 岁的女儿阿加姆 (Agam)，以及两个年龄较小的儿子，分别是 11 岁和 9 岁。
They led us to Nadav's car, first to Nadav's car and then to my car.
他们把我们带到了纳达夫的车前，先是纳达夫的车，然后是我的车。
They tried to start Nadav's car, but his car, when it's starting, it's very quiet.
他们试图启动纳达夫的车，但他的车启动时非常安静。
If you don't know the car, you probably wouldn't understand.
如果你不了解汽车，你可能不会理解。
So they probably thought, it's not working.
所以他们可能会想，这不起作用。
And they brought the keys to my car, and we got into my car.
他们给了我车钥匙，我们就上了我的车。
And I'm looking to the bushes, still hoping that maybe someone will signal to me with their finger.
我看着灌木丛，仍然希望有人会用手指向我发出信号。
Maybe I tell the kids to escape.
也许我会告诉孩子们逃跑。
But on the other hand, it was dangerous.
但另一方面，这也是危险的。
I remember realizing this is very crucial, what I decide right now.
我记得意识到这非常重要，我现在就决定了。
I was afraid.
我很害怕。
They had us now.
他们现在拥有了我们。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter I remember the kids' faces on the way to Gaza, very deep, terrified looks at me.
[非英语演讲] 口译员 我记得在去加沙的路上孩子们的脸，非常深沉、恐惧地看着我。
I remember they asked me what happened to my lips, the boys.
我记得他们问我的嘴唇怎么了，男孩们。
My lips were probably white.
我的嘴唇可能是白色的。
I was shocked.
我很震惊。
I was completely shocked.
我完全震惊了。
And I'm in the car with the kids on the way to Gaza.
我和孩子们一起在车里前往加沙。
And I need to understand and figure out that-- it was really important for me to tell the kids first that Yam is not with us anymore, and Nadav probably isn't as well.
我需要理解并弄清楚这一点——对我来说，首先告诉孩子们非常重要，Yam 不再和我们在一起了，Nadav 可能也不再和我们在一起了。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Do the terrorists say anything?
[非英语演讲] 恐怖分子有说什么吗？
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter They're happy.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 他们很高兴。
They're very happy.
他们很高兴。
I remember the driver and the guy next to him, they're filming us.
我记得司机和他旁边的那个人正在拍摄我们。
I remember we were putting our heads down, Agam and me.
我记得阿加姆和我都低下了头。
Then they stopped near the fence.
然后他们停在栅栏附近。
It was their fence already because it was after some drive through the fields.
这已经是他们的栅栏了，因为是在开车穿过田野之后。
And they piled dead bodies on my car.
他们把尸体堆在我的车上。
I remember Agam telling the boys to look away.
我记得阿甘告诉男孩们把目光移开。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter And after seven minutes, we're in Gaza.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 七分钟后，我们到达加沙。
It's unbearable how easy it was and how fast.
令人难以忍受的是，它是多么容易，又是多么快。
I mean, first of all, we were in shock.
我的意思是，首先，我们感到震惊。
I was in shock.
我很震惊。
Chen said this a couple of times in her interview.
陈在接受采访时多次说过这句话。
The part of what was so stunning about being taken hostage was how quick it was.
被劫为人质的惊人之处在于它发生得如此之快。
One minute, she was in her home.
一分钟后，她还在家里。
Minutes later, she's in Gaza, in captivity.
几分钟后，她就被囚禁在加沙了。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter I remember like a deserted area.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 我记得就像一个荒芜的地区。
There are papers flying in the air.
空中有纸片飞扬。
And then they stopped my car.
然后他们拦住了我的车。
They put us in another car.
他们把我们安排在另一辆车里。
We drive for a little more.
我们开车去多一点。
And then a gate opens.
然后一扇门打开了。
The car goes in, and the gate closes.
车子开进去，大门关上。
They're at a private home.
他们在一处私人住宅里。
That's where the car stops.
那是车停的地方。
Chen say that her kids, till then, had held it together.
陈说，直到那时，她的孩子们才坚持了下来。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter That entire time, the kids were just so, so level-headed.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 整个过程中，孩子们都非常非常冷静。
Their conduct was so-- it was amazing.
他们的行为是如此——令人惊奇。
They didn't cry.
他们没有哭。
They didn't do anything dangerous.
他们没有做任何危险的事情。
They didn't yell.
他们没有喊叫。
They didn't try to hold on to my clothes.
他们没有试图抓住我的衣服。
I think they even tried to talk to the terrorists, talk to them in English.
我认为他们甚至试图与恐怖分子交谈，用英语与他们交谈。
But now, next to this private home, they see the entrance to a tunnel.
但现在，在这座私人住宅旁边，他们看到了一条隧道的入口。
And this is the first time that Tal-- Tal was 9 at the time.
这是塔尔第一次——塔尔当时9岁。
This is the first time he's crying.
这是他第一次哭。
He saw this black hole, and he got scared.
他看到这个黑洞，他感到害怕。
Tal cried a bit when he stared at this tunnel, but he calmed down.
塔尔看着这条隧道，哭了一会儿，但他平静了下来。
They brought him water.
他们给他送来了水。
And that's it.
就是这样。
We're going down this tunnel.
我们要沿着这条隧道走下去。
It's not very deep.
不是很深。
And we meet other hostages from Kfar Aza, an elderly couple, a young guy.
我们还遇到了来自卡法阿扎的其他人质，其中有一对老年夫妇，还有一个年轻人。
And each is telling their own kidnapping story.
每个人都在讲述自己的绑架故事。
And we can't believe we're in Gaza.
我们不敢相信我们在加沙。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Can you describe the condition in the tunnel?
[非英语演讲] 你能描述一下隧道里的情况吗？
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Sand.
[非英语演讲] 翻译沙。
There was sand everywhere and also in our mouth.
到处都是沙子，我们嘴里也有。
There was a hallway that leads to this small room with some mattresses.
有一条走廊通向这个小房间，里面有一些床垫。
There's constant sweeping because there's constant sand.
因为有沙子，所以需要不断地清扫。
And it's pretty hot there, 27 degrees.
那里很热，27度。
27 degrees, that's 80 degrees Fahrenheit.
27 度，即 80 华氏度。
And 27 degrees and very humid, very damp.
27度，非常潮湿，非常潮湿。
100 kids plus the three other hostages from the kibbutz were kept in the tunnel for two nights, she says.
她说，100 名儿童加上基布兹的另外三名人质被关在隧道里两个晚上。
At one point, one of the guards brings a deck of cards to keep the kids occupied.
有一次，一名警卫带来了一副纸牌，让孩子们有事可做。
The boys, remember, were 9 and 11.
请记住，这两个男孩分别是 9 岁和 11 岁。
Agam's the oldest, 17.
阿加姆 (Agam) 是最年长的，17 岁。
And Agam got some sort of a panic attack.
阿甘感到某种恐慌。
She started hyperventilating.
她开始换气过度。
She couldn't breathe.
她无法呼吸。
And so they attempted to calm her down.
所以他们试图让她平静下来。
They said, you'll be back in Israel by Tuesday.
他们说，你将在周二之前回到以色列。
Tuesday, you're back.
周二，你回来了。
And this was said on Monday.
这是周一说的。
We were kidnapped on Saturday.
我们星期六被绑架了。
And the truth is, I thought so, too.
事实是，我也是这么想的。
I thought we'll be back by Tuesday.
我以为我们会在周二之前回来。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter We're in Gaza with children.
[非英语语音] 口译员 我们和孩子们一起在加沙。
Israel is not going to attack.
以色列不会进攻。
Israel is not going to do what it always does.
以色列不会再做它一贯做的事情。
First, they're going to free us, and then they're going to figure out what they're going to do.
首先，他们要释放我们，然后他们要弄清楚他们要做什么。
On Tuesday, they do leave the tunnel, not for Israel.
周二，他们确实离开了隧道，不是去以色列。
They're taken to a house next to the tunnel.
他们被带到隧道旁边的一所房子里。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter And it's a house that is full of the sounds of kids, babies, women.
[非英语语音] 翻译 这是一间充满孩子、婴儿和女人声音的房子。
And there, we can already hear the attacks.
在那里，我们已经可以听到攻击声了。
Gaza is being bombarded at this point.
加沙此时正遭受轰炸。
And then they start prepping us for another move.
然后他们开始为我们的另一次行动做准备。
Any move through the streets, where they would be surrounded by Gazans, just random civilians, was always a production because their captors were hiding them from the Israelis, from the general public, from everybody.
他们在街上的任何举动都会被加沙人（只是随机的平民）包围，这总是一种制作，因为绑架者将他们藏起来，不让以色列人、公众和所有人看到。
They didn't want people to know that there were Israeli hostages walking right beside them on the street.
他们不想让人们知道街上有以色列人质走在他们旁边。
So they put Agam and Chen into full length jalabiyas and hijabs.
因此，他们让阿甘和陈穿上长袍和头巾。
The two boys, Gal and Tal, got hats.
盖尔和塔尔这两个男孩得到了帽子。
Then, they moved them outside.
然后，他们把它们搬到了外面。
It's five days into the war.
战争已经过去五天了。
Israel's bombarding Gaza.
以色列轰炸加沙。
Chen and her kids see Israeli jets flying overhead.
陈和她的孩子们看到以色列喷气式飞机从头顶飞过。
Chen says she and Agam take all this in and say Fauda to each other.
陈说，她和阿甘接受了这一切，并互相说“Fauda”。
Fauda's a big Israeli TV series, an action show about military special ops in the West Bank and Gaza.
《Fauda》是一部以色列大型电视连续剧，是一部关于约旦河西岸和加沙地带军事特种部队的动作秀。
They end up in an apartment, where they spend the next five weeks, most of their time in Gaza.
他们最终住进了一间公寓，在那里度过了接下来的五周，大部分时间都在加沙。
Part Two, Daily Life in Captivity.
第二部分，圈养日常生活。
So different hostages say they were held by different militant groups in all sorts of locations and all sorts of conditions.
因此，不同的人质都表示，他们是在不同的地点和不同的条件下被不同的武装组织劫持的。
Some hostages who have been released said they were beaten or sexually assaulted.
一些已获释的人质表示，他们遭到殴打或性侵犯。
Chen's family is now in a residential apartment building guarded by two men, who very much wanted to keep them a secret from all the civilians living around them on all sides, which had lots of consequences for the way they lived.
陈一家现在住在一栋住宅楼里，由两名男子看守，他们非常想对他们周围的所有平民保守秘密，这对他们的生活方式产生了很多影响。
Chen remembers it being really hot in that apartment.
陈记得那间公寓里非常热。
They had an electric fan, but electricity was only on for an hour or two a day.
他们有一个电风扇，但每天只通一两个小时。
So it's very hard without the fan when the windows are pretty much closed.
因此，当窗户几乎关闭时，没有风扇就很难了。
There are heavy curtains on the windows, and we weren't allowed to go near them.
窗户上挂着厚重的窗帘，不让我们靠近。
We weren't allowed-- they keep opening them, closing them, open, close.
我们不被允许——他们不断地打开、关闭、打开、关闭。
They don't want anyone to hear us, even people just in the building or, of course, people on the streets.
他们不希望任何人听到我们的声音，即使是大楼里的人，当然还有街上的人。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter I remember it was very hard for me to fall asleep there.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 我记得我在那里很难入睡。
I was always the last one, always tossing and turning because you're sweating there the whole time.
我总是最后一个，总是翻来覆去，因为你一直在出汗。
Everything is wet.
一切都是湿的。
You're just soaked in sweat.
你只是被汗水浸湿了。
And there are bombings at night.
而且晚上还会有爆炸事件。
And at that stage in this apartment where we were, they were still explaining to us, this is bombings from the sky.
当时在我们所在的公寓里，他们仍在向我们解释，这是来自天上的轰炸。
This is from the sea.
这是来自大海的。
This is artillery.
这是大炮。
And when the house shook, they would move with us, sway with us.
当房子摇晃时，它们会与我们一起移动，与我们一起摇摆。
And we were on-- I don't know which floor-- maybe fifth?
我们在——我不知道是哪一层——也许是第五层？
At that stage, at least, they would say, bida bida, like it's far.
至少在那个阶段，他们会说，“bida bida”，就像它很远一样。
You hear the whistle.
你听到口哨声。
You know the fall is going to be far.
你知道秋天还会很远。
They were trying to tell us it's going to be OK.
他们试图告诉我们一切都会好起来的。
It's far.
很远啊
They tried to calm us down.
他们试图让我们平静下来。
They wanted us to be OK.
他们希望我们一切都好。
Living among the Palestinians, the Israeli hostages suffered through some of the same hardships of the war.
生活在巴勒斯坦人中间的以色列人质也经历了一些与战争相同的苦难。
Many hostages in their interviews talk about how hungry they were.
许多人质在接受采访时都谈到了他们有多饿。
The captors tried to give them two meals a day.
绑架者试图给他们提供一日两餐。
As the Israeli bombing campaign progressed, of course, and the army rolled in, food and water got harder and harder to get in Gaza, to the point where now Gaza is on the edge of famine, according to the United Nations.
当然，随着以色列轰炸行动的进展以及军队的进驻，加沙的食物和水越来越难获得，据联合国称，现在加沙正处于饥荒的边缘。
Water, they tried to provide drinking water.
水，他们试图提供饮用水。
You can't drink water from the tap.
你不能喝水龙头里的水。
First of all, there isn't like a steady flow of water.
首先，没有稳定的水流。
Sometimes there's just a drip, and it's basically salt water.
有时只是滴水，而且基本上是盐水。
Bathroom, very difficult.
卫生间，非常困难。
Bathrooms, you can't just flush the water.
卫生间，不能只冲水。
Maybe we had it in the first two days, but then we couldn't flush the water.
可能前两天我们也有过，后来就冲不了水了。
There was a really bad smell in the bathrooms.
浴室里有股难闻的气味。
When power would come on for an hour, sometimes, she says, they'd get running water.
她说，有时，当电力接通一个小时后，他们就会得到自来水。
And then they had to decide who could shower-- guards or some of them.
然后他们必须决定谁可以洗澡——是警卫还是其中的一些人。
Agam, the teenager, really wanted to wash her hair.
十几岁的阿甘真的很想洗头。
With all that competition, Chen says, she pretty much gave up on showers for herself.
陈说，由于竞争如此激烈，她几乎放弃了自己洗澡。
I felt very strange in Gaza physically, the whole stay in Gaza.
在加沙的整个过程中，我在加沙的身体上感觉很奇怪。
I was very weak.
我非常虚弱。
And I kept thinking about what happened at home.
我一直在想家里发生的事情。
I forced myself to remember how I last saw Yam after she was shot.
我强迫自己回忆起在亚姆被枪杀后我最后一次见到她的情景。
Like it was like a form of torture, of self-punishment.
就像这是一种折磨，一种自我惩罚。
Fortunately, over time, as time passes, that image gets blurry.
幸运的是，随着时间的流逝，那个图像变得模糊。
And I remember Yam is beautiful and happy.
我记得山药是美丽而快乐的。
But I remember at first, I was really forcing myself to not forget how I saw her.
但我记得一开始，我真的在强迫自己不要忘记我是如何看到她的。
I mean, the whole thing just took seconds, and I ran outside.
我的意思是，整个过程只花了几秒钟，我就跑了出去。
I ran outside to the kids.
我跑到外面去找孩子们。
I didn't go down to help her.
我没有下去帮助她。
I didn't check on her.
我没有查她的情况。
I was terrified.
我很害怕。
Looking back now, I realized that in a way, I chose life.
现在回想起来，我意识到在某种程度上，我选择了生活。
I went outside to Agam and Gal and Tal.
我走到外面去找阿加姆、加尔和塔尔。
Now, in this apartment, with those three surviving kids, Chen says she was in a constant state of alert to protect them.
现在，在这间公寓里，还有三个幸存的孩子，陈说她一直处于警惕状态，以保护他们。
She says she cried every day, but the captors did not like seeing them cry.
她说她每天都哭，但绑架者不喜欢看到他们哭。
She says they wanted them happy, not sad.
她说他们希望他们快乐，而不是悲伤。
So she tried to conceal all that.
所以她试图隐瞒这一切。
One night, she says, the apartment started shaking from a bomb that fell nearby, and the guards had them evacuate.
她说，一天晚上，公寓因附近掉落的一枚炸弹而开始摇晃，警卫让他们撤离。
They all go into the street.
他们都走到街上。
There's total darkness.
一片漆黑。
It's 7:00 PM.
现在是晚上 7:00。
And Gaza is destroyed.
加沙已被摧毁。
It's devastated.
它被毁了。
And we're walking outside.
我们正在外面散步。
We didn't walk long, but we were outside, me and the kids.
我们没走多久，但我和孩子们就在外面。
And all of a sudden, there was fire on us.
突然间，我们身上着火了。
I see the red lasers and the balls of fire and shooting on us, fire.
我看到红色激光和火球向我们射击，火。
That's how it looked like.
看起来就是这样。
It came from above, from the air.
它来自上方，来自空气。
And they discuss with us many times the absurdity of the fact that they are protecting us from our own military.
他们多次与我们讨论他们正在保护我们免受我们自己军队的伤害这一事实的荒谬性。
We had many conversations with them about it, about how absurd it is.
我们与他们就此进行了多次对话，讨论这是多么荒谬。
And they would really put it in our faces and kind of laugh about and smile about it.
他们真的会把它放在我们面前，并对此大笑和微笑。
And it would be like, do you understand what is going on here?
就像，你明白这里发生了什么吗？
We are watching you.
我们正在看着你。
We are protecting you.
我们正在保护你。
There was one night, we spent the night in a supermarket, and it was the first time there was an attack right near us on the street.
有一个晚上，我们在一家超市过夜，这是第一次在我们附近的街上发生袭击事件。
And the supermarket, the whole place shook.
还有超市，整个地方都震动了。
And it's like a crazy jackhammer that's just getting closer and closer to you.
它就像一把疯狂的手提钻离你越来越近。
We already saw all the rocks coming our way.
我们已经看到所有的岩石都朝我们这边过来。
And it's so scary.
这太可怕了。
It feels like the seconds before death.
感觉就像死亡前的几秒钟。
And they are, with their bodies, the terrorists, that cell that watch us, they're, with their bodies, on us, covering us on the mattresses, protecting us, from attacks of our own military.
他们用他们的身体，恐怖分子，那个监视我们的牢房，他们用他们的身体，在我们身上，把我们盖在床垫上，保护我们免受我们自己军队的攻击。
The complicated relationship they had with their captors.
他们与绑架者之间的复杂关系。
That's the subject of Part Three, The Guards.
这是第三部分“守卫”的主题。
In general, the only Hamas members who talk to the media are official spokespeople and leaders.
一般来说，唯一与媒体交谈的哈马斯成员是官方发言人和领导人。
And one of the things about these hostage interviews is that they give a glimpse of lower level operatives, some Hamas, some with other militant groups operating in Gaza who are keeping Israelis hostage.
这些人质访谈的一个特点是，它们让人们看到了较低级别的特工，其中一些是哈马斯，一些是在加沙活动的其他激进组织，他们将以色列人扣为人质。
Here's Lee Naim, the interviewer.
请听采访者李·奈姆的报道。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] At the end of the day, these are the people holding you, and your life depends on them.
[非英语演讲] 归根结底，这些人是支持你的人，你的生活取决于他们。
So, with all the hate, I assume it was very uncomfortable situation.
所以，尽管有这么多的仇恨，我认为这是非常不舒服的情况。
I imagine myself, I want them to like me so I can survive.
我想象自己，我希望他们喜欢我，这样我才能生存。
So how did you manage it?
那么你是如何做到的呢？
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
[非英语演讲]
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Yeah, we realized our lives are in their hands.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 是的，我们意识到我们的生命掌握在他们手中。
We realized they were just a cog in the system, that they're not the people making the decisions.
我们意识到他们只是系统中的一个齿轮，他们不是做出决定的人。
Sometimes I would ask them, if someone gave you the decision to hurt us, would you do that?
有时我会问他们，如果有人让你决定伤害我们，你会这么做吗？
And they would say, no, we are going to die before that happens.
他们会说，不，在那之前我们就会死。
Worst case, we're all going to die together.
最坏的情况是，我们都会一起死。
And that was pretty encouraging to hear.
听到这个消息真是令人鼓舞。
Chen says that eventually there were four men guarding her family, who told them they were 28, 30, 37, and 44 years old, three married, two with kids.
陈说，最终有四名男子看守她的家人，他们告诉他们，他们的年龄分别是28岁、30岁、37岁和44岁，其中三人已婚，两人有孩子。
The youngest had a failed engagement.
最小的一个订婚失败了。
The oldest was the most religious, Chen said.
陈说，最年长的是最虔诚的。
He would read the most.
他读书最多。
One of them was learning Hebrew and would ask Agam if she could help him study years or dates.
其中一个正在学习希伯来语，他会问阿甘是否可以帮助他学习年份或日期。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] What was the most surprising thing that you discovered about them?
[非英语演讲] 你对他们发现的最令人惊讶的事情是什么？
Mm, their sensitivity at times, how much they miss their wives.
嗯，他们有时很敏感，他们是多么想念他们的妻子。
At some point, one of them wrote a letter to his wife, and it was contagious because then another one wrote a letter to his wife.
在某个时候，其中一个人给他的妻子写了一封信，这具有传染性，因为随后另一个人也给他的妻子写了一封信。
I'm just going to interrupt here because I just want to point out the intimacy of this-- these people locked together in a dark, hot, stuffy apartment, planes dropping bombs around them, who cannot help but notice what the others are doing in this cramped space.
我只是想在这里打断一下，因为我只是想指出这一切的亲密性——这些人被锁在一间黑暗、炎热、闷热的公寓里，飞机在他们周围投下炸弹，他们情不自禁地注意到其他人在这个狭窄的空间里做什么。
It's so personal.
这太个人化了。
But at the same time, they are not on the same team.
但同时，他们也不在同一个团队。
There's a distance.
有一段距离。
So when Chen and Agam see them all writing letters to their wives--
所以当陈和阿甘看到他们都给妻子写信时——
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter And it made us really nervous, Agam and I.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 这让我们非常紧张，阿加姆和我。
We were like, why do you need to write letters to your wives right now?
我们当时想，为什么你现在需要给你的妻子写信？
Is something going on?
有什么事吗？
Is there something about to happen?
是不是有什么事要发生了？
One of them said he had an agreement with his wife to put the letter in his pocket, so if they found his body, they find it in the pocket.
其中一人说，他与妻子达成协议，将这封信放在他的口袋里，所以如果他们发现了他的尸体，他们也会在口袋里找到它。
We saw their pain, sometimes.
有时我们看到他们的痛苦。
We could see their pain.
我们可以看到他们的痛苦。
We saw them breaking down and cry.
我们看到他们崩溃并哭泣。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] What did they cry over?
[非英语演讲] 他们因为什么而哭泣？
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter About the uncertainty of what's going on with their family, whether their family was hurt or no. That was the main thing.
[非英语演讲] 口译员关于他们家人发生的事情的不确定性，他们的家人是否受伤。这是主要的事情。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Did they see you as human beings?
[非英语语音] 他们将你视为人类吗？
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Yeah, it seems so.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 是的，看起来是这样。
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
I mean, I felt like they really liked Gal and Tal, despite all the harm that was done.
我的意思是，我觉得他们真的很喜欢盖尔和塔尔，尽管他们造成了很多伤害。
And there was harm done.
并且造成了伤害。
Beyond their activity in Hamas, they also had a business of perfumes.
除了在哈马斯的活动之外，他们还从事香水生意。
And they really showed us.
他们确实向我们展示了。
They brought a box with all the perfumes.
他们带来了一个装有所有香水的盒子。
They wanted Agam and I to check it out, to try it, and tell them what we thought, what we liked.
他们希望我和阿加姆检查一下，尝试一下，并告诉他们我们的想法和喜欢的东西。
They really showed us the syringes, how they make it with the percentages of the alcohol, how they put it all together.
他们真实地向我们展示了注射器，他们如何用酒精的百分比来制作注射器，以及他们如何将它们组合在一起。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter We also started having conversations about the roots and the depth of the conflict.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 我们还开始讨论冲突的根源和深度。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter From their perspective, we were the first ones who murdered.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 从他们的角度来看，我们是最先杀人的。
We were the ones who deported and murdered their parents in '48.
我们是 48 年驱逐并谋杀他们父母的人。
1948, the year Israel became a state.
1948 年，以色列建国。
The violence in that period resulted in the deaths of 15,000 Palestinians and the displacement of over 750,000 others.
那段时期的暴力事件导致 15,000 名巴勒斯坦人死亡，75 万多人流离失所。
When the conversation reached those points, that's when we would stop because it would just get too tense.
当谈话达到这些程度时，我们就会停止，因为事情会变得太紧张。
Because we didn't agree with them, but on the other hand, we also didn't know all the facts to argue with them.
因为我们一方面不同意他们的观点，但另一方面，我们也不知道与他们争论的所有事实。
So we didn't want to upset them too much.
所以我们不想让他们太难过。
We wanted to be OK with them.
我们想和他们和好。
Sometimes, though, Chen couldn't help herself.
但有时，陈却无法自拔。
Like, she says, every time they were moved from one apartment to another, passed from one group of captors to the next, the new ones would always ask, is this the family?
她说，每次他们从一间公寓搬到另一间公寓，从一组绑架者转移到另一组绑架者时，新来的人总是会问，这是他们一家人吗？
And then I needed to explain to them that, yes, you murdered my husband, you murdered my daughter, so this is the family.
然后我需要向他们解释，是的，你谋杀了我的丈夫，你谋杀了我的女儿，所以这就是这个家庭。
And then sometimes after that, there would be a silence.
有时在那之后，会陷入沉默。
And sometimes they would say that if the person who murdered Yam and Nadav did it in vain, like if Yam and Nadav weren't a real threat, that person, on the day of his death, he will be judged.
有时他们会说，如果谋杀亚姆和纳达夫的人徒劳无功，就像亚姆和纳达夫不是真正的威胁一样，那个人在他死的那天，他将受到审判。
If he killed them in vain, he'll go to hell.
如果他徒然杀了他们，他就会下地狱。
If not, he'll go to paradise.
如果没有，他就会去天堂。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Sometimes there was this moment of silence, or they would apologize when they realized that their own people, their brothers, killed Nadav and Yam.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 有时会有这一刻的沉默，或者当他们意识到自己的人民，他们的兄弟杀死了纳达夫和亚姆时，他们会道歉。
Generally, though, her captors were pretty unrepentant and open about their hopes for the future.
不过，总的来说，绑架她的人毫不悔改，并且对未来的希望持开放态度。
They also told us, we like you.
他们还告诉我们，我们喜欢你。
You're a good family.
你们是一个很好的家庭。
Don't go back to Kfar Azam.
不要回到卡法阿扎姆。
We'll come back there again.
我们会再回到那里。
How many were we last time?
上次我们有多少人？
Like 3,000?
比如3000？
How many people you think we have in our organizations?
您认为我们的组织中有多少人？
They ask me and Agam.
他们问我和阿甘。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Agam and I would try 20,000, 40,000.
[非英语演讲] 口译员 Agam 和我会尝试 20,000、40,000。
So we'll come, they say, in three years.
他们说，三年后我们就会来。
In three years, we'll rebuild, and then 40,000 will come again.
三年后，我们将重建，然后将有 40,000 人再次来到这里。
They were in euphoria.
他们欣喜若狂。
In the seven weeks that we were there in Gaza, our impression was that they were elated over their success on October 7, and that they planned to come again.
在我们在加沙的七个星期里，我们的印象是，他们对 10 月 7 日的成功感到高兴，并计划再来。
We never got the impression that their spirits are being hurt because of the attacks.
我们从来没有感觉到他们的精神因袭击而受到伤害。
Part Four, News From Home.
第四部分，来自家乡的消息。
There was a radio in the apartment.
公寓里有一台收音机。
And sometimes the guards would let Chen and her family listen.
有时恶警会让陈和她的家人听。
But it was an ordeal to get them to agree to that.
但要让他们同意这一点是一个考验。
When the news came on, they would beg to be allowed to listen to 10 minutes' worth.
当新闻播出时，他们会请求允许听10分钟的内容。
A newscast where they didn't talk about the hostages really broke our hearts.
他们没有谈论人质的新闻广播确实让我们心碎。
We just couldn't accept that they are talking about deepening the fighting, and they don't talk about us.
我们只是无法接受他们在谈论加深战斗，而他们却没有谈论我们。
And when we came back, we actually talked about it.
当我们回来时，我们实际上讨论了这个问题。
And we noticed that ever since, they are making an effort to always, at the top of the hour, to mention the hostages, because we really waited for it every time.
我们注意到，从那时起，他们总是努力在整点钟的时候提及人质，因为我们每次都在等待。
Listening to the radio, they started to piece together how big the attacks of October 7 had been.
听着广播，他们开始拼凑出 10 月 7 日袭击的规模有多大。
They had no idea of the scope.
他们不知道范围。
Other hostages said this, too.
其他人质也这么说。
One told the interviewer that she was shocked to hear that 75 people from her kibbutz, a fifth of the kibbutz, had been taken hostage.
其中一位告诉采访者，她很震惊地得知，她所在的基布兹有 75 人（占基布兹的五分之一）被劫为人质。
She thought it was just her and the three other people who she'd met in captivity.
她以为只有她和她在囚禁中遇到的其他三个人。
Chen was listening to a broadcast when her own father came on the air, talking about them.
当她自己的父亲在广播中谈论他们时，陈正在听广播。
And the radio host is saying goodbye and saying, we're sorry for Nadav and Yam.
电台主持人正在告别并说，我们为纳达夫和亚姆感到抱歉。
That's when I finally realized that they're not with us anymore.
那时我终于意识到他们已经不在我们身边了。
Up until then, she'd held out hope that maybe the army had come right afterwards and saved Nadav.
在那之前，她一直抱着希望，也许军队会立即赶来并拯救纳达夫。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter That was the first time that Gal, who's 12, now is 12, cried.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 这是 12 岁的盖尔第一次哭，现在已经 12 岁了。
We were really moved to hear my dad on one hand and on the other hand, very, very sad.
一方面，听到我父亲的声音，我们真的很感动，另一方面，又非常非常悲伤。
And still we kept asking for the radio.
但我们仍然不断地要收音机。
One day on the radio, they heard about the dramatic rescue of a hostage named Ori Megidish by the Israeli military.
有一天，他们在广播中听说以色列军方戏剧性地营救了一名名叫奥里·梅吉迪什的人质。
That news really seemed to get to their guards.
这个消息似乎确实传到了他们的守卫那里。
The guards started acting very differently.
守卫的行为开始变得非常不同。
They started going crazy.
他们开始发疯。
They wore their bulletproof vests, and they put their uniforms-- they became more like soldiers.
他们穿上了防弹背心，穿上了制服——他们变得更像士兵了。
Their stress immediately affected us, was projected on us.
他们的压力立即影响到我们，投射到我们身上。
I remember at some point, they were also taking out some sort of grenade, in case someone is going to break the door.
我记得在某个时候，他们还拿出了某种手榴弹，以防有人破门而入。
And they told us, if they're going to break the door, we're all going to hide in the bathroom together.
他们告诉我们，如果他们要破门而入，我们就一起躲到浴室里。
It was just awful stress.
这真是可怕的压力。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] And the news about Ori, did it encourage you or stress you in any way?
[非英语演讲] 关于 Ori 的新闻，它对你有什么鼓励或压力吗？
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter I mean, we were jealous of her.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 我的意思是，我们很嫉妒她。
We were jealous that they were able to get to her and rescue her.
我们很嫉妒他们能够找到她并营救她。
But we also-- we saw what it did to our guards.
但我们也——我们看到了它对我们的警卫造成的影响。
That's why, after they rescued the last three hostages two months ago, I immediately thought-- I mean, it's a happy thing.
这就是为什么，在他们两个月前解救了最后三名人质之后，我立即想到——我的意思是，这是一件令人高兴的事情。
Each one is a universe.
每一个都是一个宇宙。
It's a life.
这是一个生命。
But I immediately thought, what does it mean for the people still there?
但我立即想到，这对于仍然在那里的人们意味着什么？
Are they being guarded more intensely?
他们的看守是否更加严密？
Are they being transferred from one place to another now?
他们现在正在从一个地方转移到另一个地方吗？
I was scared.
我很害怕。
Maybe they're hurting them more.
也许他们对他们的伤害更大。
Maybe they're doing something to them now.
也许他们现在正在对他们做些什么。
Chen Almog-Goldstein being interviewed by Lee Naim.
陈阿尔莫格-戈德斯坦接受李·奈姆采访。
The story continues.
故事还在继续。
And we hear from other hostages, including one who met the head of Hamas in a tunnel.
我们还听到了其他人质的消息，其中包括一名在隧道中与哈马斯领导人会面的人质。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, 51 Days.
今天的节目，51天。
A year after the Hamas attack on Israel that started the current war, we're hearing the story of Chen Almog-Goldstein, who was held hostage with three of her kids for 51 days.
哈马斯袭击以色列并引发了当前的战争一年后，我们听到了陈阿尔莫格-戈德斯坦的故事，她和她的三个孩子被扣为人质 51 天。
And before we get back to her story, I wanted to play you a few clips from some of the other interviews that Lee Naim did with hostages for the Israeli news podcast, Echad Bayom-- One a Day.
在我们回到她的故事之前，我想给你们播放一些李·奈姆为以色列新闻播客《Echad Bayom——一天一话》采访人质时的一些片段。
One of the interviews she did gave a glimpse of life in a tunnel that's very different from Chen's experience.
她所做的一次采访让我们得以一睹隧道里的生活，这与陈的经历截然不同。
This is somebody who spent her entire time in captivity in the tunnels, a 78-year-old named Margalit Moses.
这位78岁的老人名叫玛格丽特·摩西，她一生都被囚禁在隧道里。
And to give you a sense of her personality, her captors at some point started calling her the captain, because in that particular group of hostages, she would be the one to suggest things to the guards, like don't cook the potatoes in the morning and then serve them to us hours later.
为了让你了解她的个性，绑架她的人在某个时候开始称她为队长，因为在那群特定的人质中，她会是那个向警卫提出建议的人，比如不要早上煮土豆，然后在几个小时后给我们上菜。
Cook them shortly before we eat them and bring them warm.
在我们吃之前不久将它们煮熟并加热。
Put them on a plate with a bit of salt.
把它们放在盘子里，加一点盐。
People like salt on their potatoes.
人们喜欢在土豆上撒盐。
Margalit says, when she arrived in Gaza, they walked deep into the tunnels an hour and a half or two hours before they arrived at the rooms underground, where she and about 15 people from her kibbutz were held.
玛格丽特说，当她到达加沙时，他们深入地道一个半小时或两个小时，然后到达地下房间，她和基布兹的大约 15 个人被关押在那里。
There were mattresses on the floor and chairs.
地板上有床垫和椅子。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Oh, we had an elegant room, really.
[非英语演讲] 翻译哦，我们真的有一个优雅的房间。
We had a room that was covered with ceramics, both the floors and the walls.
我们的房间地板和墙壁都铺满了陶瓷。
Except for the ceiling that was both curved and painted white with lime.
除了天花板是弯曲的并用石灰漆成白色之外。
The walls were decorated with a beautiful, delicate design.
墙壁上装饰着美丽而精致的图案。
And high up above, there were drawings of tulips with beautiful green leaves.
在高高的上方，画着郁金香，叶子美丽。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] How organized and prepared did the tunnels there seem?
[非英语演讲] 那里的隧道看起来组织得如何、准备得如何？
Oh, the tunnels were very, very organized.
哦，隧道非常非常有组织。
I walked around even at night.
我什至在晚上也四处走动。
I didn't have that much to do, unless somebody wanted to go to the bathroom, and I helped them.
我没有那么多事可做，除非有人想去洗手间，我就帮助他们。
Margalit was up all night because she's somebody who needs a CPAP machine to sleep.
玛格丽特整夜没睡，因为她需要呼吸机才能睡觉。
She brought one with her, but her captors took it.
她随身带着一个，但绑架者拿走了它。
And then she asked a doctor for another one.
然后她又向医生要了另一颗。
She said he smiled and laughed and said, we don't have those here.
她说他笑着说，我们这里没有。
So, she says, she didn't sleep for more than 5 or 10 minutes at a time for nearly two months.
因此，她说，在近两个月的时间里，她每次睡觉的时间不超过 5 或 10 分钟。
So at night, up anyway, she would walk people to the toilet.
所以到了晚上，不管怎样，她都会送人们去厕所。
So I was walking around at night in the tunnels.
所以我晚上在隧道里走来走去。
And generally, we were only allowed to get to a certain point beyond which they said, you can't go.
一般来说，我们只被允许到达某个点，超过这个点他们就会说，你不能走。
And I constantly was wondering, what is there that they don't let us go there?
我一直在想，有什么是他们不让我们去那里的？
Do they have some weapons there?
他们那里有武器吗？
Or-- I don't know what.
或者——我不知道是什么。
So one night, when I saw that they were all asleep, even that person that was supposed to be awake to supposedly watch over us.
所以有一天晚上，当我看到他们都睡着了，就连那个应该醒着看护我们的人也睡了。
So I said, I really have to go see what's there.
所以我说，我真的得去看看那里有什么。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter And then I arrive, and I see that there was a splitting of a few tunnels.
[非英语演讲] 翻译然后我到达，我看到有几条隧道裂开了。
So I peeked to see into each one what's there.
所以我仔细看看每一个里面都有什么。
Here, there is this one tunnel full to the brim with lots of six-packs of mineral water.
在这里，有一条隧道，里面装满了很多六包矿泉水。
So straight away, one bottle here, one bottle there.
所以马上，这里一瓶，那里一瓶。
Yes.
是的。
And that's how we had mineral water, at least for a few days.
这就是我们喝矿泉水的方式，至少几天。
She said one tunnel she looked down had mattresses.
她说她往下看的一条隧道里有床垫。
Others had electrical wires and water pipes.
其他人有电线和水管。
Near their room in the tunnel, there was a kitchenette with shelves for canned food, and there was a group of hostages that were in a room that was mostly open but had some cages, she said, like for prisoners on the side.
她说，在隧道里他们的房间附近，有一个小厨房，里面有架子，可以放罐头食品。房间里有一群人质，房间大部分是开放的，但有一些笼子，就像旁边关押囚犯的笼子一样。
So it was really organized, from their point of view, the tunnels.
所以从他们的角度来看，隧道确实是有组织的。
Numbers, each floor a different color.
数字，每层楼颜色不同。
They sometimes had to walk around with notes that explained to them where to turn because the place is huge.
有时他们不得不带着笔记四处走动，向他们解释该去哪里，因为这个地方很大。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Maps?
[非英语演讲] 地图？
Margalit Moses [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
玛格丽特·摩西 [非英语演讲]
Maps, yes, maps.
地图，是的，地图。
We reached minus 5, sometimes.
有时我们会达到-5。
Minus 5, five floors down.
负五，下五层。
Interpreter When they were afraid there might be soldiers outside, they called us to come quickly, quickly.
翻译 当他们担心外面可能有士兵时，他们叫我们快点快点过来。
So we went downstairs quickly.
于是我们就快步下了楼。
And then we saw minus 5.
然后我们看到负5。
So just imagine kilometers and kilometers and five floors.
所以想象一下几公里和五层楼。
Incredibly, one day, the second day of their captivity, Margalit says they had a visit from the man responsible for their kidnapping and the deaths of their loved ones, the head of Hamas himself, Yahya Sinwar.
令人难以置信的是，有一天，他们被囚禁的第二天，玛格丽特说，负责绑架他们和杀害他们亲人的人来拜访了他们，他就是哈马斯领导人叶海亚·辛瓦尔。
Can I say, I find this to be a completely believable story because nothing dramatic happens in this story at all.
我可以说，我认为这是一个完全可信的故事，因为这个故事中根本没有发生任何戏剧性的事情。
Like, if you made up a story like this, the head of Hamas would say something fascinating and revealing, or she would get off some great line.
就像，如果你编造一个这样的故事，哈马斯的领导人会说一些引人入胜且发人深省的话，或者她会说一些很棒的台词。
None of that happens.
这些都没有发生。
It just seems like he ordered people to bring back hostages.
看起来就像他命令人们带回人质一样。
They did.
他们做到了。
It's the next day, and he wants to see some of them for himself.
第二天了，他想亲眼看看其中的一些。
Here's Margalit's account.
这是玛格丽特的账户。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter He entered the room with his entourage.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 他与随行人员一起进入房间。
He asked us, do you know who I am?
他问我们，你们知道我是谁吗？
So I said to him, yes, you are Yahya Sinwar.
所以我对他说，是的，你就是叶海亚·辛瓦尔。
So he opened his eyes big.
于是他睁大了眼睛。
He was surprised I knew his name.
他很惊讶我知道他的名字。
And he said, yes, it's true.
他说，是的，这是真的。
I'm Yahya Sinwar.
我是叶海亚·辛瓦尔。
He speaks fluent Hebrew very well.
他希伯来语说得非常流利。
And he said not to be afraid.
他说不要害怕。
And they will give us anything we need, and that we are only there to be bargaining chips for prisoner exchange.
他们会给我们任何我们需要的东西，而我们只是作为交换囚犯的筹码。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] How did it feel to hear that from him?
[非英语演讲] 听到他这么说感觉如何？
[EXHALES] It's horrifying.
[呼气]太可怕了。
The audacity with which he said it with his nose up in the air.
他昂着鼻子说这句话时的大胆。
For me, it was an unpleasant moment.
对我来说，这是一个不愉快的时刻。
This arrogance of his humiliates you, and most of us were older people.
他的这种傲慢让你感到羞辱，而我们大多数都是老年人。
What is the point of kidnapping older people and putting them there?
绑架老年人并把他们放在那里有什么意义？
So that's Margalit Moses, who was released around the same time as Chen and her family.
这就是玛格丽特·摩西，她与陈及其家人大约在同一时间获释。
I want to play you some stuff from one other interview before we get back to Chen.
在我们回到陈之前，我想给你们播放一些其他采访中的内容。
Ada Sagi is 75 years old, from the same kibbutz as Margalit.
阿达·萨吉 (Ada Sagi) 75 岁，与玛格丽特来自同一个基布兹。
Her life in captivity was very different from Margalit's or Chen's for a few reasons, and one of them is that she speaks Arabic, taught it in middle schools, partly out of an idealistic belief in coexistence and wanting to speak with her neighbors.
她的囚禁生活与玛格丽特或陈的生活截然不同，原因有几个，其中之一是她会说阿拉伯语，并在中学教阿拉伯语，部分原因是她对共存的理想主义信念以及想要与邻居交谈。
And so she understood what was being said around her when she was in captivity, understood where she was October 7, when she was driven south to the city of Khan Younis.
因此，当她被囚禁时，她了解周围的人在说什么，也了解 10 月 7 日她被驱赶到南部的汗尤尼斯市时她身在何处。
We arrived at a vegetable sorting warehouse at the eastern outskirts of Khan Younis.
我们到达汗尤尼斯东郊的一个蔬菜分拣仓库。
They unloaded us, took from us some jewelry that I had from my mother, wedding band, and my glasses.
他们把我们卸下来，拿走了我从母亲那里得到的一些珠宝、结婚戒指和我的眼镜。
And I begged them to leave the glasses, because without them, I completely lose orientation.
我恳求他们留下眼镜，因为没有它们，我完全失去了方向。
They took it because they claimed that it has a tracking chip in it.
他们拿走它是因为他们声称里面有一个跟踪芯片。
And they are petrified by chips.
他们被碎片吓呆了。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Did you try to explain that--
[非英语演讲] 你有没有试着解释一下——
Yes, I tried to explain them.
是的，我试图解释它们。
What do I have in common with a chip?
我和芯片有什么共同点？
Well, they said you used to be a soldier.
嗯，他们说你曾经是一名士兵。
They said that to a 75-year-old woman because there is mandatory military service in Israel.
他们对一名 75 岁的妇女这么说是因为以色列实行义务兵役制。
So she served.
所以她服务了。
But when I was a soldier, there was no computer, and there were no chips.
但当我当兵的时候，没有电脑，也没有芯片。
They explained that every soldier has a chip.
他们解释说，每个士兵都有一个芯片。
And I said, I wish it was true.
我说，我希望这是真的。
If it was true, we would know where everybody is.
如果这是真的，我们就会知道每个人在哪里。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter In that warehouse, somebody stood and did the check-in.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 在那个仓库里，有人站着办理登记手续。
He was an English-speaking person.
他是一个说英语的人。
He asked for first name, last name, ID number from where we are.
他询问我们的名字、姓氏、身份证号码。
And he also was asking for the phone number of the children.
他还询问了孩子们的电话号码。
Naturally, I invented phone numbers.
当然，我发明了电话号码。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter I said, it's like check-in into a hotel.
[非英语演讲] 翻译我说，这就像入住酒店一样。
Another fact about Ada-- she left her home without putting on shoes.
关于艾达的另一个事实是——她没有穿鞋就离开了家。
Her captors told her, don't put them on.
绑架者告诉她，不要戴上它们。
So she spent her entire captivity barefoot, though she was given a pair of socks in November, when it got colder.
因此，她在整个被囚禁期间都是赤脚的，尽管十一月份天气变冷时，她得到了一双袜子。
Ada was held captive with another woman from her kibbutz, Meyrav Tal, who's in her 50s, 20 years younger than Ada, not somebody she knew well before this.
艾达与基布兹的另一名妇女梅拉夫·塔尔 (Meyrav Tal) 一起被囚禁，她 50 多岁，比艾达小 20 岁，而她之前并不认识这个人。
But the fact that there was somebody else to share this with really defined her time as a hostage and made it easier.
但事实上，有其他人可以分享这件事，这确实定义了她作为人质的时间，并让这件事变得更容易。
They put us in the children's bedroom.
他们把我们安排在孩子们的卧室里。
There were two bunk beds.
有两张双层床。
They gave us the lower beds.
他们给了我们下层的床。
I had the drawing of Angry Birds, and Meyrav had the drawing of sweet dreams.
我画了《愤怒的小鸟》，梅拉夫画了《甜蜜的梦》。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] How did you pass the time, you and Meyrav?
[非英语演讲] 你和 Meyrav 是如何度过这段时间的？
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Hours and hours of logic games.
[非英语演讲] 口译员 几个小时的逻辑游戏。
And we were playing a crossword puzzle in our heads.
我们在脑子里玩填字游戏。
We were talking about our family, every child, grandchild.
我们正在谈论我们的家庭，每个孩子，孙子。
We got to know each other family as if the two of us were sisters.
我们像姐妹一样认识了彼此的家人。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Did you also share your worries?
[非英语演讲] 你也分享过你的担忧吗？
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Yes we were very, very much partners in our worries.
[非英语演讲] 口译员 是的，我们是非常非常有忧虑的伙伴。
They also talked to their guards.
他们还与警卫交谈。
One guard spoke some English, and Ada, of course, spoke Arabic.
一名警卫会说一些英语，艾达当然会说阿拉伯语。
One of the guards in particular, she says, was very loyal to her and Meyrav.
她说，特别是其中一名警卫对她和梅拉夫非常忠诚。
He listened to Al Jazeera and told them what was happening in the news.
他听半岛电视台的节目，告诉他们新闻中发生的事情。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter He said all the time that I'm treating you as if you were my mother.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 他一直说我对待你就像对待我的母亲一样。
I felt that there is some respect.
我觉得有一些尊重。
We know that his wife is a midwife at the Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis.
我们知道他的妻子是汗尤尼斯纳赛尔医院的助产士。
He has four kids.
他有四个孩子。
He evacuated her and the kids from the home to her parents' home.
他将她和孩子们从家里疏散到她父母家。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Oh, he really told you about himself.
[非英语演讲]哦，他真的告诉你他自己了。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Yes, he told us a lot.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 是的，他告诉了我们很多。
At one time, while he was telling that-- he said, I'm not involved.
有一次，当他这么说时，他说，我没有参与其中。
And I said, what do you mean, not involved?
我说，你说不参与是什么意思？
And he said, I'm neither a Jihad nor Hamas, but I want money.
他说，我既不是圣战者，也不是哈马斯，但我想要钱。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter I ask him, but myself and Meyrav are at your place in the kids' room.
[非英语语音] 翻译我问他，但我和梅拉夫在孩子们的房间里。
You took away our freedom, our basic right, and you say that you are not involved?
你剥夺了我们的自由，我们的基本权利，你还说你不参与？
And he said, I want money.
他说，我想要钱。
I want money for myself and my wife to get visa for us and the kids and fly away from here because there is no future here.
我想要钱给我自己和我的妻子，让我们和孩子们获得签证并飞离这里，因为这里没有未来。
Ira Glass OK, back to Chen and her family.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 好的，回到陈和她的家人。
We are at part 5, Moving Around.
我们正在进行第五部分，“四处走动”。
One of the things you realize, listening to Chen, is just how much of the experience of being a hostage can be just being moved from place to place, no idea where you are or where you're going or why.
听陈的讲述，你意识到的一件事是，作为人质的经历有多少可能只是从一个地方转移到另一个地方，不知道你在哪里，你要去哪里，也不知道为什么。
Chen's daughter, Agam, worried every time they were moved that this was the time they were going to be taken somewhere to be killed.
陈的女儿阿甘每次感动时都担心自己会被带到某个地方被杀害。
When they walk through the streets, they're supposed to keep their eyes down and blend in.
当他们走过街道时，他们应该低下眼睛并融入其中。
The captors gave them fake names to use if anybody tried to talk to them.
绑架者给了他们假名字，以便在有人试图与他们交谈时使用。
And they would practice the pronunciation of the names with them to be sure they got them right.
他们会和他们一起练习名字的发音，以确保他们听对了。
That night they thought they might die in that supermarket, Chen and her kids were moved to an apartment above the supermarket til that building started shaking.
那天晚上，他们以为自己可能会死在那个超市里，陈和她的孩子们被转移到超市楼上的一套公寓里，直到那栋楼开始摇晃。
It didn't seem safe, and they moved to a mosque for shelter.
看起来并不安全，他们搬到了一座清真寺避难。
And then they headed out on what Chen remembers as a long journey through the streets of Gaza, part of it on a donkey cart.
然后他们就出发了，陈记得这是一段穿越加沙街道的漫长旅程，其中一部分是乘坐驴车。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Eight of us on a donkey, like on a cart attached to a donkey.
[非英语演讲] 口译员 我们八个人骑着一头驴子，就像骑着一辆挂在驴子上的手推车。
And the donkey is stumbling.
驴子也绊倒了。
And bombing all around?
还到处轰炸？
Interpreter Bombings, yeah, and roads that would end.
翻译爆炸，是的，道路将会结束。
And they would have to ask the locals whether we can pass through or not.
他们还得询问当地人我们是否可以通过。
And then the donkey would need to make a U-turn.
然后驴子需要掉头。
Finally, they reached an apartment, which she says was still under construction.
最后，他们到达了一套公寓，她说公寓仍在建设中。
Maybe a month and a half into their captivity, not long before the end, one of the guards takes Chen and her kids out of the apartment and onto the street.
大约在被囚禁一个半月后，在结束前不久，一名警卫将陈和她的孩子带出了公寓，带到了街上。
Very long walk in the streets of Gaza.
在加沙的街道上走了很长一段路。
We're outside, and for the first time, we see the sun down.
我们到了外面，第一次看到太阳落山。
And then we get to a school.
然后我们到达一所学校。
All around the school are Palestinian civilians who are seeking shelter.
学校周围都是寻求庇护的巴勒斯坦平民。
And Chen and her kids, in their disguises, apparently look like just another displaced Palestinian family needing help.
陈和她的孩子们经过伪装，显然看起来只是另一个需要帮助的流离失所的巴勒斯坦家庭。
People were putting all these sheets and putting together these impromptu tents.
人们正在铺上所有这些床单并组装这些临时帐篷。
And there's a lot of people there.
那里有很多人。
And they approached the guy from the cell, and they offer to house us, to host us.
他们找到了牢房里的那个人，并提出为我们提供住处，接待我们。
He kept saying that people are offering help because they see family with kids.
他一直说人们提供帮助是因为他们看到有孩子的家人。
So they offer to help.
所以他们主动提出提供帮助。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter For the first time after six weeks, we're sitting outside, and we're seeing the moon.
[非英语演讲] 口译员 六周后，我们第一次坐在外面，看到了月亮。
And Tal is telling me, hey, Mom, look, this is the moon.
塔尔告诉我，嘿，妈妈，看，这是月亮。
And there was excitement in the air, too, because there was a feeling of like a ceasefire might be coming.
空气中也充满了兴奋，因为有一种停火可能即将到来的感觉。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Did you believe it?
[非英语演讲] 你相信吗？
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Yeah, it looked like-- yes, I wished for it.
[非英语演讲] 口译员 是的，看起来——是的，我希望如此。
And then I look at the sky, and I show Tal.
然后我看着天空，向塔尔展示。
And I tell him, look which stars are moving and which stars are staying still because the skies were packed with planes.
我告诉他，看看哪些星星在移动，哪些星星保持静止，因为天空中挤满了飞机。
And then all of a sudden, people near the school launched rockets, and they were so thrilled with every rocket they launched.
然后突然间，学校附近的人们发射了火箭，他们对发射的每一枚火箭都感到非常兴奋。
And I was immediately scared.
我立刻就害怕了。
Maybe now the planes are going to bomb the school.
也许现在飞机要轰炸学校了。
Then she says, the guard who was with them, who had been with them for weeks, said goodbye to Chen, wished them a quick return to Israel, told her to take good care of Agam, and handed her off to the next group of captors.
然后她说，和他们在一起几个星期的警卫向陈道别，祝愿他们尽快返回以色列，告诉她好好照顾阿甘，然后把她交给了下一组绑架者。
They were told there's no safe place above ground anymore and got taken down into a tunnel, where they met six other hostages, two kids, four women, two of whom are young Israeli soldiers.
他们被告知地面上不再有安全的地方，并被带入隧道，在那里他们遇到了其他六名人质，两个孩子，四名妇女，其中两人是年轻的以色列士兵。
They had just finished basic training and a course, and they didn't even start doing their job.
他们刚刚结束了基础训练和课程，甚至还没有开始做自己的工作。
Kids, they're like 18 and 1/2, 19-year-olds.
孩子们，他们就像 18 岁和 1/2、19 岁的孩子。
Some of them were alone until they got to that tunnel.
他们中的一些人在到达那条隧道之前都是独自一人。
And some were physically injured, alone.
有些人身体受伤，独自一人。
Yeah, some of them went through a lot.
是的，他们中的一些人经历了很多。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter There was something really powerful about that week in that tunnel.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 那个星期在那条隧道里有一些非常强大的东西。
Even though with all the difficulties and even though they seemed to be on edge, we were really there for one another.
尽管困难重重，尽管他们似乎处于边缘，但我们确实彼此支持。
There was some sort of feminine energy strength in that tunnel.
那个隧道里有某种女性能量的力量。
The two kids, Ela and Dafna, were sisters, 8 and 15.
这两个孩子，Ela 和 Dafna，是姐妹，分别是 8 岁和 15 岁。
Their dad and his partner were killed on October 7.
他们的父亲和他的伴侣于 10 月 7 日被杀。
And the other women had been taking care of them in Gaza.
其他妇女一直在加沙照顾她们。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter And they're amazing.
[非英语演讲] 口译员 他们太棒了。
They showed so much emotional strength also towards the children, Dafna and Ela.
他们对孩子们达芙娜和埃拉也表现出了如此强烈的情感力量。
And that's something I couldn't handle.
这是我无法处理的事情。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] To be there for other kids.
[非英语演讲] 为其他孩子服务。
Yes, I couldn't.
是的，我不能。
But the young women, they were there for them.
但那些年轻女性，他们就在他们身边。
They were with them even before we arrived.
甚至在我们到达之前他们就和他们在一起了。
So they were the authority for those girls.
所以他们是那些女孩的权威。
And I was in awe, truly, at how they managed to handle them and be there for them, with their physical injuries and with their emotional injuries, and still try to function, to cook whenever possible, to be there for each other.
我真的很敬畏他们如何设法处理他们并在他们身边陪伴他们，尽管他们的身体受伤和情感受伤，但仍然尽力发挥作用，尽可能做饭，互相陪伴。
I remember one day, one of them had this like panic attack.
我记得有一天，其中一个人出现了类似恐慌症的症状。
And she started hyperventilating, and she started going up the stairs.
她开始换气过度，然后开始上楼梯。
And she sat there on the stairs, and she was crying her heart out.
她坐在楼梯上，伤心地哭着。
And she was crying.
她在哭。
And she just like-- it's like she couldn't breathe.
她就像——就好像她无法呼吸。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter And she wanted a moment to herself because all this togetherness can be really intense, too.
[非英语演讲] 口译员 她想要一个属于自己的时刻，因为所有这些团聚也可能非常激烈。
And of course, we're there for one another.
当然，我们会互相支持。
We're helping each other.
我们互相帮助。
But it can just be suffocating, too.
但它也可能令人窒息。
And you end up craving your privacy and just a moment for yourself and some air and some space.
最终你会渴望拥有自己的隐私，渴望属于自己的片刻、一些空气和一些空间。
This is where Chen and her kids spent the week before they're finally released.
陈和她的孩子们在最终获释前一周就是在这里度过的。
They were told during that week, it's going to be soon.
那一周他们被告知，很快就会到来。
They kept saying Friday.
他们一直说星期五。
Oh, no, it's going to be Saturday.
哦，不，今天是星期六。
Oh, no, now it's going to be Sunday.
哦，不，现在是周日了。
I remember thinking to myself, it's not a big deal, like the absurdity of it.
我记得我心里想，这没什么大不了的，就像它的荒谬一样。
It's not a big deal if I stay here one more day.
我在这里多住一天也没什么大不了的。
Getting out, I realize I'm going to have to face something very difficult, that I lost Yam and Nadav.
出去后，我意识到我将不得不面对一些非常困难的事情，我失去了亚姆和纳达夫。
Yam and Nadav, her daughter and husband, of course.
当然，Yam 和 Nadav，她的女儿和丈夫。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter And the day of our release came.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 我们发布的日子到了。
It was a very nerve wracking day.
这是非常令人紧张的一天。
Saying goodbye to the girls was difficult.
和女孩们说再见是很困难的。
They were like, who's going to be released next?
他们问，下一个被释放的是谁？
Is it going to be the civilians first?
首先是平民吗？
The soldiers?
士兵们？
I mean, the soldiers kind of understood that it will take a little longer.
我的意思是，士兵们都知道这需要更长的时间。
I mean, they didn't realize it was going to be that long, but they would never imagine they would still be there.
我的意思是，他们没有意识到会那么长，但他们永远不会想象他们还会在那里。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] But there were two other women with you, civilians?
[非英语演讲] 但是和你在一起的还有另外两个女人，平民？
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter Yes, they were wounded, but they're still there.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 是的，他们受伤了，但他们还在那里。
Yes, they're still there.
是的，他们还在那里。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter It was a difficult farewell, also deciding what to say to their parents, what not to say to their parents.
[非英语演讲] 口译员 这是一次艰难的告别，同时还要决定该对父母说些什么，不该对父母说些什么。
They ask us to fight for them.
他们要求我们为他们而战。
They ask us not to forget them, to go to protest, that we speak to their parents.
他们要求我们不要忘记他们，去抗议，要求我们与他们的父母交谈。
That, we did immediately.
我们立即这么做了。
They also told us what to say and what not to say.
他们还告诉我们什么该说，什么不该说。
But everything was with the assumption that they would be released right after us.
但一切都假设他们会在我们之后立即被释放。
That still hasn't happened.
那还没有发生。
They are still there.
他们还在那里。
Chen and her family were released as part of a deal negotiated by Qatar, Egypt, and the United States, where 80 Israelis, mostly women and children, lots of older people, were swapped for 240 Palestinians, mostly women and children, held in Israeli prisons.
作为卡塔尔、埃及和美国谈判达成的协议的一部分，陈和她的家人被释放，其中 80 名以色列人（其中大部分是妇女和儿童，其中很多是老年人）被交换为关押在以色列监狱中的 240 名巴勒斯坦人（其中大部分是妇女和儿童）。
Chen's transfer was broadcast on Israeli TV.
以色列电视台转播了陈的转会。
And the first stages of it look pretty chaotic, actually.
实际上，它的第一阶段看起来相当混乱。
There's a random mass of people crowded on some sidewalk.
人行道上挤满了随意的人群。
Cars with hostages pull up one after another.
载着人质的汽车一辆接一辆地停了下来。
Each hostage is ushered down the sidewalk past all this confusion to another waiting car.
每位人质都被带过人行道，穿过这片混乱，到达另一辆等候的汽车。
It was frightening, Chen says.
陈说，这太可怕了。
We walk a while from the Hamas vehicles to the Red Cross vehicles.
我们从哈马斯车辆到红十字会车辆走了一段路。
And we're being filmed.
我们正在被拍摄。
It's all staged.
一切都是上演的。
And it's like their moment of glory.
这就像他们的荣耀时刻。
They're wearing their best uniforms.
他们穿着最好的制服。
We never saw these uniforms before.
我们以前从未见过这些制服。
And I remember asking myself, how did Israel allow this?
我记得我问自己，以色列怎么允许这样的事情发生？
How could Israel allow our transfer to happen in such a public, exposed place when tons of people were there?
以色列怎么可能允许我们的转移发生在这样一个公共、暴露的地方，而且那里有很多人？
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter We were scared.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 我们很害怕。
We were so scared until the end.
直到最后我们都很害怕。
We already survived this.
我们已经幸存下来了。
We're already about to get released.
我们已经快要被释放了。
And they had to make it scary for us, all the way to the end.
他们必须让我们感到害怕，一直到最后。
Then, the Red Cross vehicles take off in a convoy and drive all the way to the border.
随后，红十字会车辆组成车队出发，一路驶向边境。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter And then, all of a sudden, like magic, we're being moved to our military.
[非英语演讲] 口译员 然后，突然之间，就像变魔术一样，我们被转移到我们的军队。
And it was very, very moving.
这非常非常令人感动。
That moment was the saddest happiness of my life.
那一刻是我一生中最悲伤的幸福。
I knew Nadav wouldn't be there to hug me.
我知道纳达夫不会在那里拥抱我。
I just wanted someone to be there and hug me and tell me, that's it.
我只是希望有人在那里拥抱我并告诉我，就是这样。
You're safe now, after everything we've gone through.
在我们经历了这一切之后，你现在安全了。
Ada, the hostage, who had been an Arabic teacher, also talked in her interview about that moment right at the end of captivity when she finally made it out and reached the Israeli military forces.
人质艾达曾是一名阿拉伯语教师，她在采访中也谈到了被囚禁结束时她终于逃脱并到达以色列军队的那一刻。
It got to her in a very different way.
这对她来说是一种非常不同的方式。
There was a group of officers there.
那里有一群军官。
There was a white shining tent with everything you could wish for.
有一个闪闪发光的白色帐篷，里面有你想要的一切。
I walked in, and they took me in.
我走进去，他们就带我进去了。
And I screamed, where were you on the 7th of October?
我尖叫道，10 月 7 日你在哪里？
Not that they deserve it because it was not them, but where the hell were their army on the 7th of October?
并不是说他们应得的，因为那不是他们，但是 10 月 7 日他们的军队到底在哪里？
And I started crying, and they caught me at the moment I was falling down.
我开始哭，他们在我摔倒的那一刻抓住了我。
And I'm not one of those fainters.
我不是那些昏倒者之一。
It was a very difficult moment.
那是一个非常困难的时刻。
Chen and her family were filmed in the helicopter that brought them home talking to the crew, getting a tour of the cockpit.
陈和她的家人被拍到在送他们回家的直升机上与机组人员交谈，参观驾驶舱。
Chen says it was hard, getting this very respectful treatment, not to think about how this was the same military that she and her kids had been so scared of in Gaza for so long during the airstrikes.
陈说，在得到这种非常尊重的待遇时，很难不去想这支军队是她和她的孩子们在加沙空袭期间长期害怕的军队。
These rescuers were in the same army that might have killed them.
这些救援人员与可能杀死他们的同一支军队在一起。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Did you say anything about it?
[非英语演讲] 你对此说过什么吗？
I started talking about when I first came back, because when I was in Gaza, I promised myself that I would talk about it, that I would talk about that complexity.
我开始谈论我第一次回来的时候，因为当我在加沙时，我向自己保证我会谈论它，我会谈论这种复杂性。
But then you come back and they tell you, don't talk about it as much with the media, not with the international media, of course, because it's not a good look.
但当你回来后，他们告诉你，不要与媒体谈论太多，当然，不要与国际媒体谈论它，因为这看起来不太好。
And you see here how hard it is.
你看到这里有多么困难。
You see people who did a bunch of operations in the military and got to very senior positions, and they're not able-- it's like they can't-- they're unable to come and just say, we're sorry.
你看到那些在军队里做过很多行动并担任非常高级职务的人，他们无法——就像他们不能——他们无法过来只是说，我们很抱歉。
We're sorry for what you went through on the 7th when you were inside your shelter.
对于您 7 日在避难所内所经历的一切，我们深表歉意。
We're sorry that we bombed in Gaza when you were there with your kids.
我们很抱歉，当您和孩子们一起在加沙时，我们遭到了轰炸。
Margalit Moses, the woman you heard earlier who was held in the tunnels the entire time, was released two days before Chen.
玛格丽特·摩西（Margalit Moses），就是你之前听到的那个一直被关在隧道里的女人，比陈早两天被释放。
She got invited this summer by Prime Minister Netanyahu to meet with him and some other released hostages.
今年夏天，她受到内塔尼亚胡总理的邀请，与他和其他一些被释放的人质会面。
She wrote this letter as her reply.
她写这封信作为她的答复。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter "Hello, Mr. Netanyahu."
[非英语演讲] 口译员“您好，内塔尼亚胡先生。”
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter "Thank you for the invitation, but I will not participate in a meeting for the sake of photos and public relations while my friends are rotting in Hamas tunnels in Gaza.
[非英语演讲] 翻译“感谢您的邀请，但当我的朋友们在加沙的哈马斯隧道里腐烂时，我不会为了照片和公共关系而参加会议。
With my own eyes, I saw them alive in captivity, and now, due to their second abandonment since October 7, we are receiving them in coffins.
我亲眼看到它们在圈养中活着，现在，由于它们自10月7日以来第二次被遗弃，我们正在棺材里接收它们。
In light of reports that you have thwarted yet another deal to release the captives, I see no reason to attend a meeting with somebody who has demonstrated through his actions that the release of the captives is not a priority and who is abandoning them to their death.
鉴于有报道称你又阻挠了另一项释放俘虏的协议，我认为没有理由与一个通过自己的行动证明释放俘虏不是优先事项并且抛弃他们至死的人参加会议。
I would be happy to meet you at the welcoming event for the 109 captives upon their return to their families."
我很高兴在 109 名俘虏返回家人身边的欢迎活动上见到你们。”
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Interpreter "Thank you."
[非英语语音] 翻译“谢谢。”
Margalit Moses.
玛格丽特·摩西。
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Dana Chivvis, Diane Wu, Yael Even Or, and me, with editing help from Nancy Updike, based on interviews from the Israeli podcast, Echad Beyom, a production of N12.
图片来源 Ira Glass 今天，我们的节目由 Dana Chivvis、Diane Wu、Yael Even Or 和我在 Nancy Updike 的编辑帮助下根据以色列播客 Echad Beyom（N12 的制作）的采访制作。
The staff of Echad Beyom who produced these interviews are Lee Naim, Shira Erell, Rom Atik, Yair Bashan, and Guy Enbar.
制作这些采访的 Echad Beyom 的工作人员包括 Lee Naim、Shira Erell、Rom Atik、Yair Bashan 和 Guy Enbar。
Our Hebrew interpreters were Yael Evan Or, Amira Joelson, and Miriam Kaplan.
我们的希伯来语口译员是 Yael Evan Or、Amira Joelson 和 Miriam Kaplan。
The people who put together our show today include Bim Adewunmi, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Emmanuel Dzotsi, Hany Hawasly, Chana Joffe-Walt, Valerie Kipnis, Henry Larson, Seth Lind, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Ike Sriskandarajah, Laura Starcheski, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, Matt Tierney, and Nancy Updike.
今天节目的制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Emmanuel Dzotsi、Hany Hawasly、Chana Joffe-Walt、Valerie Kipnis、Henry Larson、Seth Lind、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Ike Sriskandarajah、Laura Starcheski、Lilly沙利文、克里斯托弗·斯维塔拉、玛丽莎·罗伯逊-特克斯特、马特·蒂尔尼和南希·厄普代克。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Noa Yachot, Daria Shualy, Etgar Keret, and Sam [?
今天特别感谢 Noa Yachot、Daria Shualy、Etgar Keret 和 Sam [？
Klein.
克莱因。
?] Also thanks today to the rest of the Echad Beyom staff-- Elad Simchayoff, Adi Hetsroni, Danielle Shahar, and Danny Nudelman.
？] 今天还要感谢 Echad Beyom 的其他工作人员——Elad Simchayoff、Adi Hetsroni、Danielle Shahar 和 Danny Nudelman。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
You can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free.
您可以完全免费地观看我们的 800 多集档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。